20 Episode results for "Ferguson Police Department"

How to Stay Sane While Saving the Country

The Cut on Tuesdays

24:27 min | 1 year ago

How to Stay Sane While Saving the Country

"This episode of the cut on Tuesdays brought to you by divorce an H._B._o.. Original series divorce is a comedy series about the lows and the lower lows of a very long divorce it starts Sarah Jessica Parker and Thomas Hayden Church and it is back for season three tune in Mondays at ten PM on H._B._O.. And the cut and give them media. This is the cut on Tuesdays. I'm still be editor in chief of the cut <music> this week. I'm filling in for molly again while she's off writing a brilliant article for the magazine and while I'm here I'm talking to some women. I admire for our series. How I get it done? It's about ambitious women and how they live how they deal with their inboxes people's feelings grocery shopping their morning routines. What do they know that we don't what do they do that? We can steal Oh advice column part love letter part voyeurism. I met Britney Pacman when I was sitting next to her on a long plane ride choose warm and funny and full of really good tips for how to pack a carry-on Bag Britney grew up in Missouri not far from Ferguson and two thousand fourteen when Michael Brown was shot by Ferguson Police Brittany joined the protests she became a leader in that demonstration a strong voice against police brutality. She has a way of talking about these things clear and compassionate and makes people sit up and take notice and people definitely did take notice when the governor of Missouri set up a commission to examine racial inequalities in the area he asked Brittany to join and when President Obama set up his task force on twenty-first-century policing Brittany got a call from the White House Obama has said that Brittany's voice is going to make a difference for years to come since then she's used that voice to speak all over the country calling out inequality again and again if there's such thing as a celebrity activist Britney is it but it didn't start with Ferguson. Brittany told me that she was raised by parents took social justice very seriously when she was just a baby they put her in a stroller and wheelchair to protests and it didn't take long for her to start organizing protests of her own so the very verse Protest Best I ever organized myself was when I was I think I was nine or ten and there were no black Santa's in the mall where we were shopping in Saint Louis and I was like okay we're coming here by all of these presents but I have never in my tangiers on this Earth Wien a black man innocent across suit and I just don't understand why because so many of my heroes so many of my role models we're black and I asked my dad about it and we had a conversation he was like what do you want to do about it so we put signs in the hands of my cousins my friends and his church members and we marched into Saint Louis Galleria and we got ourselves. Blacks in the news came the whole nine so there was this moment for me when I was very young I realized sized that ordinary people can save the truth out loud in public and that in and of itself as an actor protest and that's really what protests and activism is it's. It's speaking the truth out loud in public. Wherever wherever you are after initial success like your first taste of success with activism that is not always experience that people have as activists and you've obviously been protesting things like Ferguson and your early to arrive there her? How did it feel to be there? I mean if felt dangerous and righteous and scary and like I had no other option. My first day of protests was August the tenth. I was Outta town on August. The ninth went home early on August tenth and so the second day of an uprising I was there because I had to bear witness to what was happening in my own community and I couldn't get that through television and I couldn't get that on twitter. I had to physically be present. Brian Stevenson who is an incredible lawyer and human rights activists in the founder of equal justice initiative. I heard him speak years ago on the concept of proximity and what his work helped me really remembering that moment is that you can't solve problems that you're not close to and you cannot work in alliance with people that you do not know. I'll never forget being on the street in front of the Ferguson Police Department on August the Tenth of prayer vigil had just ended people. Were starting to sit in on the street. I watched a young woman. I filmed it. Essentially say the deputy police chief the people who keep ending up being harmed harmed by this are not people who look like you people who look like me there my cousins there my brothers there my aunts uncles and so this is why we are out here. This is why we're not going home and she was full of clarity and passion and I wanted I want I was really hoping that he was GonNa get which she was saying and when she was done he backed up and I looked at him and I said you know why have you approached a community that is clearly in grief with such disdain stain. Why did you bring German shepherds for example into a black community knowing the history of the civil rights movement in this country and he looked manny said did anybody die and I was like good God Almighty? If that is the standard hinder you are you are titillating right now the exact problem that we have and I said to him I said actually somebody did die. His name was Michael Brown junior and that's why we're not going home and then I'd turned I took my cellphone starting to film other things baffled some water and stayed for a few hours and they came back the next day so it felt if felt like even with all of the risk even with all of the folks who called Stugz even with all the tear-gas even with all the pepper spray even with all the Times. Terms of running for our lives even with all the nights where we did not know if we were going to make until the next day that there was no other place for me to be there was this leads into actually a question have few which is about grief and so much of of the black lives matter movement is spurred by grief and how is that shaped you as a person and how it is like what role does grief play in your life and work work. Oh Wow so I lost my dad. When I was twelve? He passed away from congenital heart failure. I was twelve. My younger brother was seven my mom was in our forties and my mom by training his social issues a just a brilliant woman is been the most important role model in my life but what it meant was that even at the age of twelve losing my dad we had lots of conversations nations about how I was holding the grief about how I was experiencing and I was like a daddy's girl right so so much of my activism the way that I speak like everything is just really modeled after him and it was devastating for me but at the age of twelve my mom really helped me find language around that grief and helped me tap into it and not be afraid of the fact that it is unfortunately a factor of human in existence. Everyone is going to experience grief and you can either run from it and let it catch you or you can build the container in which you WanNa hold it and I started to develop those skills. I think fortunately very early in my life so what that meant for me is that grief has always deserved an required an outlet. When I was younger I would like you know write poems in right? A lot about high was feeling ailing the older I got an especially when I think about the uprisings that we have seen across this country in the spirit of protests that we've seen revived from the streets of Ferguson the Baltimore to Palestine are are yes about people having a funnel for their grief but grief only exists when you love the thing that you've lost right and so I don't like to think of the roots it's of this work as just being roots of grief although they are. I like to think about this being rooted deeply in love the we showed up on the streets of Ferguson and I continue to show up in this work every single day because I love my people because I love my family family because I love my little brother Barrington and I don't want him to be an exception. I want hit the success he's found in his life to be the rule for other black boys and girls. I love people period. I want love to live out loud in policy. I want to live out loud at the White House. I would love to live out loud at the Supreme Court. I would love to be felt in the everyday existence of people who have been cast in the margins of society and that is why I'm willing to take tear gas for this like that is why I you can call me all kinds of names on the Internet that is why you can send me the death threats because I love you enough to continue to fight for our collective liberation on a really bad day. What is something you do? Let's say you did get a death threat. Like how do you go home. What do you eat? How do you unwind from something like that? A lot of people actually don't know that I had a set of death threats. There were really really terrible from someone that I actually went to high school with so there were two two and a half months where I had a bodyguard every day. He was driving me to work drive me back. It was actually when Reggie and I I started dating Zoellick every I all of our first dates are like me Reggie and Mitch. That's terrible. I'm sorry to be laughing terrible but it's I mean part of what I do is try to find the joy in situations right so the good news is the person that help you find the bodyguard knew who I would want to spend the kind of person I would want to spend that much time I'm with found somebody who we now call Uncle Mitch because he just has also that much joy in his art. Is he coming to your wedding coming to the leading yeah he's talking. I was like Mitch. I need your address. You have to go to the wedding you literally been here. You're the entire time so you have to be there but I mean that's part of dealing with right and I I know the joys a Revolutionary Act because it is part of how survive so yes so during those months and it was it was right during the holidays to select people would send packages of the House and he he had to open up every package someone from his team slept at the house every night and it was very intense ordeal and put people I love in jeopardy because because because this person and I had known each other for most of our lives. I don't know if he's GONNA show but my mom's job. I don't know if he's GONNA show up at my brothers were if he's going to show up at my office and put my staff in jeopardy like they're just so many things that were running through my head and I used to have this recurring dream that I would show in court to finalize the restraining order walk outside and he would kill me like that is I drunk that dream like every night for several weeks and so I wasn't getting a ton of sleep is you can imagine agent. How do you pay for something like that how do you that's a cost of doing business obviously but that seems very very difficult and expensive? How does who covers it is expensive? The good news is that I have some really great eight people in my life who were looking out men helped me cover those costs <hes> and like I am forever indebted to people like every time I see those folks. I'm like you saved my life. Coming up after the break the life hack I now swear by thanks to Britney. This episode of the cut on Tuesdays is brought to you by Divorce H._B._O.. Original series divorce is a comedy series about the lows and lower lows of a very long divorce star-stared Jessica Parker and Thomas Hayden Church and it is back back for season three this season Francis and her ex-husband Robert Navigate co-parenting while also encountering several bombshell surprises. That's been there post-divorce lives and completely unexpected directions tune in Mondays at ten PM on H._B._O.. I was wondering how important it is to turn on airplane mode. When you're flying like Ono is the plane going to crash for the the truth about airplane mode and many other burning questions he probably wondered about subscribe to every little thing from Gimblett media? That's every little thing look for cockpit confessions in the feed. Listen on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts shocks have a reputation as bloodthirsty killers so it had the board in my arm in the same mouthful but I'll shocks really the villain hia or as shock wake duped us all it's our responsibility try to weed through this fake both science festus from Gimblett dives deep into the science and comes out singing three that signs bestest shocks. Listen on spotify over heavy. Get you podcasts. Welcome back to the cut on Tuesdays this week. Brittany Pacman is telling us how she saves her sanity while She's trying to save the country. Is there a time where you say to yourself. I'm done for the day and it's my time now. Yeah I mean so I'm getting married in a few months which means that. Sometimes I am saying I'm done for the Dan. Sometimes my fiance's saying you needs to be done for the day every other Friday. We like to go and do you carry Yoki at this place. It's like in a basement. We call it the Auntie emporium because it feels like this is where all aunties go to like kick back on Friday after work but I mean it is a place for all of our friends hang out and we just go and have a good time <music>. I'm eat some wings have a couple of drinks sing songs and it is the most. It's just carefree few hours. Do you have a go to Karaoke song. I do have a go to Karaoke and it is well. Honestly it depends on it depends on where I am if I am at a more mainstream Kariuki place my Go-to Song is journey. Don't stop believing because I just love this on but auntie emporium where we go every other Friday mind go to hear Yuki. hokey song is it's Patti Labelle and Michael McDonald on my own greatest arm be duets of the eighties it is I still remember the video and like watching it on this tiny television in in the kitchen when I was growing up in Saint Louis and I've always loved Patti labelle voice but there was just something about the video that captivated me when I was a kid and it is the most dramatic like break-up Song Ever Ver- and you know Michael McDonald's voices legendary too so I just I love that song. I find it hilarious so do you do you sing both parts or do you just by myself. I think both parts and that's not we'll probably my head all the time so there's you know you could passing airport and that can be thinking to myself but usually my fiance's there and so he'll usually sing the the man's part although Michael Bay Donald Things in a far higher register then Reggie can so it. That's always fun so I have a question actually about your public persona as you mentioned on Instagram and and keeping it authentic and obviously I folli so I'm familiar with your singing and in addition to being incredibly socially active you're like quite joyful and you're living your life in a very celebratory way. Is that a conscious decision. You've made to kind of mitigate some of the difficulty of the subject matter that you engage in on a daily basis. Oh Yeah I every time I decided I have a laugh or smile about something or admire some flowers on the side of the road or just do something that has pure entertainment value. I am bucking systems that don't want me to exist list or to thrive so I don't know if it's how much I would describe it as a conscious choice as much as I would say that it is joy is deeply ingrained in who I am and so like if you follow me you're going to get all of that momentum. So when I met you we were sitting on an airplane and little doubt a pair of compression socks and you did and you said I cannot live without these compression socks. I'm on airplanes all the time. When I travel by the way I bought the same compression socks immediately after meeting 'cause I yeah I'd like by six pairs of compression socks? Now because relation is very important sell you cannot play these so since this is such a kind of nuts and bolts how I get it. Done is really a peek into how remarkable busy women live their lives talk to me. A little bit about some of them are quotidian how you get it done things like I actually no you to be quite interested in fashion and skin care what are the like nuts and bolts things you do every day like just detailed things because since I've bought your compression socks I now trust you as a influence. And Influence listen I'm trying to tell you I only give people advice about the things that I am sure. I'm sure about compression socks sure routine really matters for me because everything else is so dynamic dynamic in my life so I love fashion and there are certain times where I have a uniform right so kind of Monday through Friday when I'm working from home or when I have eatings around the city that I can be more casual right now. My uniform is high waisted bo-bottle jeans because they're back and I thought that being somebody with an hourglass shaped by look ridiculous in them and then I tried on a pair from free people and then I bought four pairs day the same pants lake in different colors colors but yeah so like so flare jeans and like like a tucked t shirt because the fewer decisions I can make that are unimportant the more energy I have for making more important decisions. That also gives me so much more time to imagine what I'm GonNa wear for other things so I just did B.. T. Awards weekend. I did a panel in moderated a panel for them. I stole one of my fiance's Cammo. Jackets has some Malcolm X. Patches on it and like cinched it with an off-white belt and like warlike purple T._b.. Dress underneath it to a party with some chunks and had the best time of my life and so like when I when I don't have to make decisions about what I wear every day. It's more fun to make decisions about what I wear on. Those special days or the dressing up is more fun and closer about fun more than just function. I care a lot about my skin especially since I'm getting married and so I definitely have routine for that. In the mornings in the evenings and travel sizes of all of those things have become very important. I have one travel bag of toiletries. It sits under my sink and I pull it out. Maybe forty eight hours before a trip or sometimes twenty four hours because sometimes the trips answer back to bat. Make sure that everything there is fully stocked if it's not I go to my linen closet I've got doubles triples of everything and pull out a new item so that I can restock in my bag and I put that bag in my suitcase and I go I also I I'm such a millennial and that I like Uber Eats Jordache seamless all of them. I use them all the time I kind of ordered from like the same five restaurants because I I try to eat healthy so I like order poke more times a week than I should. I think I had polka today order like the same salad I'll just go into where you can say order again. Press order again and just go because I know it tastes good. I know it's healthy and I don't have to sit there and again make decisions that are going to take more time and energy than I have to expend so those are some of the more detailed things about my life that are that helped me establish a sense of control in routine to free me up to do and decide the things that are more important and I mean I've got tons of travel hacks right. It's the compression socks hawks. I always traveled with the heating pad. I fly Delta almost exclusively because then I know that there's going to be an outlet. I have clear and T._S._A.. Pre checked so in most cities I can get through security in less than ten minutes efficiency matters especially in your personal life so that you can be free to spend your timing your energy where it actually matters spending time in the security line is just not a good get use of my top. Were you always like that did you. I mean I'm obsessed with efficiency and I don't know where it comes from. I was like yeah now. I've had to become more obsessed with it because I have way more demands on me than I ever did before I have more relationships and requests to engage page with them. I anticipated I would have at this point in my life and at some point I realized the demands on my time outpaced my systems to organize them so I just hired an assistant. Am I avoided that for a long time. Because I was like activists. I don't have assistance right and I think I was very I was beholding to this perception that people have a folks who do justice work that it where everything is supposed to be scrappy and difficult and you're never supposed to sleep and you're hardly ever supposed to eat and your affairs are supposed to be out of order and that is frankly precisely how the opposition wins and I think you know the first time I've ever met with President Obama in the Oval Office he talked about that quote from Dr King The arc of the moral universes long but have been stored justice and he was like this. It's long we need you in the work for the long haul we need activists who are willing to tell the truth out loud in public people who are willing to you put justice on the curriculum everywhere they go. We leave folks like that for the long haul. This work is going to take years decades generations to get right and in order to make my full contribution. I have to be here and be about doing that set for this week. Show it's been real pleasure filling in for molly. She'll be back next week so the next day <music> cut on Tuesdays produced by Sarah mcvie and Levin at our senior producer is kimmy regular edited by me Staubach be and Lynn Levy mixing among our music is by Emma Munger and Haley Shaw theme song is play it right by Sylvan S._O.. That's Amelia meet Nick Sanborn Molly starlight and Alexandra Seltzer monarch. If you like the show Tiefensee subscribe because on Tuesdays is the production of Gimmick media and the cut shocks have a reputation as bloodthirsty.

Ferguson Brittany Pacman Britney Pacman President Obama Molly starlight Uncle Mitch Reggie Michael Brown Missouri Thomas Hayden Church Sarah Jessica Parker Saint Louis spotify editor in chief Saint Louis Galleria Ferguson Police Department twitter Brian Stevenson Patti Labelle
Ferguson, 5 Years On: What's Changed Since Michael Brown's Death

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

47:56 min | 1 year ago

Ferguson, 5 Years On: What's Changed Since Michael Brown's Death

"This message comes from on point sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your short list of qualified defied candidates using an online dashboard get started at indeed dot com slash n._p._r. Podcast from n._p._r. We are and w._b._z. Boston i'm chuck roberti and this is on point five years ago this month. Protests erupted in ferguson missouri frustration unleashed after the police shooting death of eighteen year old michael brown the protests marred by looting lasted for for days and a week after brown's death then governor jay nixon moved to quell the unrest to protect the people and property ferguson today i signed signed an order declaring a state of emergency orientation of a curfew riot. Police clashed with protesters. Here's one resident describing what he saw to the new york times store live needs go on us tear gas grenades. They do a whole about twenty two days out at one time and it's you know drove off the high speeds. What the data about this tonight. That's ridiculous man. We live in a third country herself. The officer who killed brown was not charged urged but the u._s. department of justice activists and community leaders demanded the ferguson changes the way it polices its streets to house that happened this hour or on point five years after ferguson a city struggle and the lessons for the national conversation about race and policing and you can join us what are your memories of the ferguson choson protests five years ago what if anything has changed where you live about race and policing join us online at twitter and facebook on point point radio. We'll joining us today. From saint louis is wesley bell. He's the saint louis county prosecuting attorney previously represented ward three on the ferguson choson city council wesley bell welcome to on point. Thanks for having me so first of all. Tell us tells the story about where you were five years ago. In august when michael brown was killed when the protests that followed erupted at that time i was was a professor at a local college in ferguson i headed the criminal justice department also wasn't attorney and and <hes> and just someone who was involved in my community and particularly working with young people as an educator and <hes> little did i know that my community would be <hes> making international news if you will <hes> so tell us then about in in the in the days and the weeks of the protests <hes> what what are the conversations that you're having with members of community. What were people saying. I mean put us back there. I think that <hes> i think i in foremost few realized the scope of the issues. Choose that <hes> we were facing not only in ferguson saint louis county missouri but across the nation and i think that ferguson was a <hes> was a you know many would argue a ground zero if you will for <hes> addressing knees and realizing that these issues <hes> were so broad in in <hes> in scope and and so at that time as an attorney i knew that some of these issues existed and worked in the courts that i worked in to <hes> address those issues but <hes> you know a lot of people a lot of good people at it did a lot of good work including president obama's department of justice to to illuminate shed light on the fact that this was a much larger problem in and what i'm really proud of is that once <hes> many realized this larger <hes> not only regional original but national issue mini stepped up to the platen and i like to <hes> and i'm proud to be in that category of of land of people and organizations who who in in fact stepped up to the plate right so there was an continue be a complex set of factors historical <hes> political that led to this moment right but there's still a there's lots of different points of view around michael brown's actual death here so i on that i just want to get a quick call. Call here fill is calling from north bro massachusetts phil. You're on the air yeah. The name is bill but that's okay bill. There was an article in the new york times is written by a lady who did a profile of the officer and michael brown and right after that article came out the outrage <hes> that it came out from a lot of ferguson residents was slandered michael brown but no one at that time argued about the facts in that article the facts are among other things that michael brown was very very thuggish that the that's the show he wasn't another trayvon martin <hes> the effects are that he was definitely trying to do serious bodily injury to that office worse now i maybe there was a way of stopping michael brown. I i don't know what that could have been. I mean short of officer being crippled choke to death. I i think he was a case clear case of self defense well bill. Thank pinky for your call me. An alert wesley bell respond to that <hes> and bills talking about the facts of the case. I would say that the use of the word thuggish is a value judgement and not necessarily a fact <hes> bill but to your bigger point about the complexities around the moment that led to michael brown's death. I mean wesley bell can respond to that because people there is still a great deal of of disagreement here. How would you respond to bill well. First and foremost i do want to push back on the idea in and i appreciate you for also pointing out is that i think we need to get past the name calling <hes> none none of us know exactly what happened but what we do know that that was a young man who lost his life and <hes> at the very least list i pay our respects and <hes> and get away from the name calling <hes> as far as particulars of the case <hes> <hes> as a policy but also ethically <hes>. I am not going to go into the details. I do believe that people have to understand whenever we deal with a situation where someone loses their life every time that we bring it up family members friends loved ones have to relive that situation all all again so what i would like to focus on is what comes out of that out of tragedy often comes opportunity in and as a result we have an opportunity fortuity <hes> to to address some much broader issues <hes> when we look at a lack of community policing prior to two thousand fourteen and still we still have a ways to go the cash bail system the ways that courts were using <hes> people in their community as as <hes> as a._t._m.'s. We know that these things were happening in so i think there's a real there's broad lessons that we can learn and issues that we can can address those broader issues that need addressing. I wanna talk to you about but but there are people in ferguson namely michael brown's father other who they don't necessarily are not ready to move past that moment they still feel he feels that justice hasn't been served right because officer darren wilson who was involved involved in the shooting he was never charged and michael brown senior urged your office. The saint louis county prosecutor's office to reopen the case ace into his son's death and here he is speaking at a press conference on the fifth anniversary of michael brown's killing. I am demanding. Evidence has to be analyzed and accountability to pilot as a follow five the value of all right as a father. I vowed to protect my will august nine two thousand and fourteen. That wasn't the case. I could not protect him day and it breaks my heart. I was standing fight until the day. I just just that's michael brown senior. <hes> urging wesley bells office. He's wesley bells the prosecuting attorney for saint louis county to reopen the case into michael michael brown's death. I mean will you well first and foremost <hes>. I have a ladder respect for <hes> the parents michael brown senior as well as leslie makes bad and i've had conversations <hes> with mr brown senior and go back years at this point <hes> and those conversations <hes> where private and they'll remain so <hes> <hes> i will tell you things that we are doing in our office and one is we're creating a conviction incident review unit that will not only look at <hes> <hes> cases that have i'll have legitimate allegations of wrongful convictions but also older cases can be reviewed food <hes> we are in the process of establishing that unit <hes> but with respect to any particular cases. I'm not going to go into any any details and and and let's keep in mind. This is still a very much a sore spot in an open wound for this region and i think in im- im- premature sure i think it is for me to <hes> pull that scab <hes> <hes> prior to <hes> <hes> any any any decisions being made if they are going to be some decisions made so <hes> i'll i'll say it like this <hes> i i don't have any comment and till and if i ever do have <unk> comment well as a prosecutor though you understand that <hes> questions need to be ask so. I'm going to ask you a couple questions about this. Feel free to not respond but do you think justice has been served in the case of michael brown's death so i am i've been in office seven months and this is the largest largest <hes> and have the largest county in in missouri. <hes> close to a million people and we have an office is that deals with a lot of serious crimes and so our focus has been on that transition getting this office up and running as well are not up and running but continue continued to be running efficient efficiently still dealing with cases that are still coming in so at this point i i have not had any opportunities to review any any <hes> older cases and <hes> again and <hes> and so that's where we are at this point okay so we've got about thirty seconds before we have to take a break but looking forward than what do you think it would take for justice to be done in this case. What does justice look like to you. I think you know again. <hes> and i hate to sound evasive because that's not what i'm doing here. But what i'm trying to explain is that we are dealing with cases that are coming to this office now prior cases if we get to a point where it sounded look at them. We'll do that but at this point we are. We are making sure to keep focusing on our mission to keep saint. Louis county residents safe fanatic includes that that entails the cases that we're dealing with now okay. Well we talk about when we come back. We're going to talk more about those big. Systemic issues that ferguson listen also revealed and see how far <hes> ferguson in saint louis county have come on those so wesley bell stand by here for just a moment. We'll be right back. This is on point. This message comes from an points sponsor indeed. When it comes to hiring you don't have time to waste you need help getting a your shortlist of qualified candidates fast with indeed post a job in minutes set up screener questions then zero in on qualified candidates and when you need to hire fast exceleron your results with sponsor jobs new users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash n._p._r. Podcast broadcast terms conditions and quality standards apply this point. I'm meghna chakrabarti. Were talking this hour about five years after ferguson ferguson and the death of michael brown and the protests that followed in ferguson and the catalyst that it was to really shine a new bright light on race and policing thing in this country so we wanna know what you think what your questions are <hes> well the officer who was involved in in michael brown's death who who shot him officer darren wilson and has maintained that it was an act of self-defense in november two thousand fourteen in an interview with a._b._c. news as george stephanopoulos wilson said that he was following his training when he ended up shooting brown so you go through the checklist the mental check rule out mace. Yes this is all happening. Split sack yes and the thing was my firearm at officer darren wilson speaking to george stephanopoulos in two thousand fourteen well michael brown's mother lesley mcfadden head has has also been she has been a vocal proponent of increased police accountability here. She is in a two thousand eighteen interview. Everybody's got boy having a bad. Ah everybody's got making a mistake but you have to own up to it you have to be responsible for which do and we see lack of responsibility when it comes to slum law enforcement accountable for their actions. We're we're joined today. By wellesley bellies prosecuting attorney four saint louis county he previously served on the ferguson city council with from saint louis and also now joining us is fran griffin with us from st louis missouri. She's a city council member for ferguson's third ward. That's the word in which michael brown was killed. She's also a member of the ferguson. Collaborative live a group of community members advocating for community input and accountability into the u._s. Department of justice consent decree that was written regarding policing in ferguson. Listen frank griffin welcome to you. Thank you very much <hes> so first of all. Give us your take here. How far along regarding sort of big systemic take issue is that were revealed by what happened in ferguson. How long how far along has ferguson come from that in five years. We've made some improvements. Wpro fm is but we definitely have. We're not finished yet. We still in the implementation process of the <hes> policies that have so far dr been revised. We've got a few things that are still on the list. It'd be completely but i'm i failing positive that we will continue to work on those <hes> to get those accomplished a so specifically what so as of right now we revise the use of force policy stop searching arrest rest accountability neighborhood policing <hes> this was done <hes> in conjunction with the ferguson police department and the and the department of justice this <hes> but at all it was also done with a group of community <hes> advocates and residents <hes> within the n._p._s. C. which is the neighborhood mahood police in steering committee. Those policies wants revised once we go through the process then have to the officers have to get trained on those they after <hes> do so many hours of training and sold that specifically as one of the things that we're in the process of actually implementing the training are now <hes> and and so i mean you. You've obviously been a key part of the ferguson community for a long time. How how different is what you're describing from <hes> what was common practice five years ago. How different is it <hes> so there's there's a there's a disciplines. If you ask the people who have been revising policies they will they will have one specific answer for you. We like you know we've come a long way because we've actually been able to change things in black and white but in terms of the greater community the community that feels the impact of these policies being revised our i would have to be i would have to say that they have yet to feel that because <hes> those policies need to be trained officers have to be trained and then they go out into the community entity so <hes> depending on who it is that you speak to you will get different bill dick get different answers to see i've seen here that there are some some there have been some a meaningful very meaningful steps forward taken in ferguson right. I mean you remember the city council back in two thousand fourteen. There was only one african american on the city council. Now there are what six wchs is that right. Well you have ella jones who is the councilwoman in the first ward. You have <hes> tony burrows. Who is the councilwoman councilwoman in the second ward. He myself and you have byron frye who was appointed <hes> after wesley vale won the st louis county prosecuting attorneys <hes> elected position and he's in the third war right so so a a difference there than representation <hes>. I'm also seeing that the police department who at the time of michael brown's death only had three <hes> african american officers now has now about half of them are are black jason armstrong. The chief of police of ferguson is african american. I mean was lee belle. Are these are these <hes> meaningful differences that go towards changing the deeper issues that you were talking about that led to what happened five years ago well as many know myself and fran we're big <music> advocates for neighborhood and community policing in one component of that is having people in the community who reflect the community and so <hes> <hes> having more african americans on the police department by itself is not going to be a panacea it has to be coupled with policies <hes> <hes> to make certain that people are treated fairly that <hes> people's rights are not abused but having said that it is a step in the direction <hes> and sometimes i think we missed the the the the bigger picture when we talk about diversity and we think that will diversity for the sake of diversity is a good thing no diversity. You still don't wanna compromise bringing quality people <hes> experienced people who are connected to the community but when you're sitting in those tables at those tables were decisions are made and fran is in that situation now. It's good to have different perspectives <hes> at the table because what was happening prior to myself in france and others coming on the council is that you did not get the voice from from many of these disenfranchised communities to say hey wait. There's another way to look at this at this problem and so overall. We're heading in the and they're in the right direction but i agree with fran. There's still a lot more to do and so fan. I mean <hes> where were the next places that you would focus efforts in ferguson. Listen <hes> so as of right now we need to do. I believe in not only working on the progression of the consider consent decree but it's really important that we as a community build from grassroots efforts that means block captains that means getting streets organized denies that means getting neighborhood associations established throughout <hes> the city of ferguson which we have a lot that are already developed but we need more for specifically in areas where they're disenfranchised marginalized people in so <hes> that's something that is going to be ongoing regardless this <hes> also the implementation making sure that <hes> the department of justice in the ferguson police department are <hes> laying out the framework for what the the policies the training of those policies looks like <hes> making it transparent so that the community is aware <hes> moving forward in that manner. We have a civilian review board. We have cases that need to be reviewed and we have we have an opportunity unity to actually go through that process and see what that looked what that looks like so that we can always <hes> sign areas where improvement is necessary and work work on those two fran. Forgive me if you said this a few minutes ago but i just wanna be clear. Are there certain basic things that have yet to be accomplished <hes> with the ferguson police. Lee's department for example. I mean are they are they yet collecting data on police use of force so the question of the thing about the data was that faye the system that was used through the city of ferguson needed to be they they were technically speaking us into different data collection system so oh that was something that the monitor has talked about <hes> that's something that they're actively working on now actually <hes> getting to a point where they've got a data system system where they can collect all of the information that they need to perform different audits to perform different analysis <hes> and so that's something that they're working on now and then it will will be completed <hes> they're actually expecting for it to be completed within its next <hes> i would say within the next few quarters 'cause we meet quarterly orderly to in front of the federal status <hes> hearing to the federal status hearing in front of the federal status judge rather excuse me okay and wesley bill. Did you want to a comment on that <hes> yeah and and as i was there during the negotiations with with president obama's department department of justice <hes> i know that it is a large effort <hes> and and it's gonna take a lot of work to get these things done and and i know that <hes> fran and other members of the council <hes> who are very invested in this particularly fran ellen and others are really working to get that but we have to keep in mind this is a small city twenty one thousand people with limited budget budgets and so you know rome wasn't built in a day and all of these things aren't going going to be implemented in a day however we do want to make sure that there's a good faith effort to continue to push in the right direction and not drager feed and that's why i'm glad people like councilman. Griffin are there who will make sure that people are held accountable but there's just more to do and and you know oh and i'll even use this in france probably wouldn't bring this up because she's so classy but how will sometime not. They're just small things understanding that i was the council member in ward three as as well as as fran and and this is the area that has been the most disenfranchised the poorest <hes> the poorest economically challenged area and small things to help beautify this community sometimes get resistance at for example myself ella fran of worked hard to get a particular giller park there because there's not a lot of places for <hes> children to play in that area and <hes> that's something that has for some reason has has been a point of contention <hes> with many <hes> <hes> that shouldn't be <hes>. We're not talking a lot of money. Most of it has been provided through grants grants but i i think that's an analogy a metaphor for larger <hes> <hes> a larger air <hes> a larger problem of ignoring orange these areas that need the most attention to the worst streets are in ward three the lack of parks places for for for kids to play and and and that's why i'm glad we have <hes> some council members who were pushing for that well frank griffin if i may i should've asked you the questions that i asked wesley bell when we started parted this show because i love to hear from you where you were and what you experienced in in you know in the day in the days after michael brown was killed. Where were you at the time. I was was living exactly where i'm living now. <hes> i was a mother. I am a mother <hes> i was working <hes> for facility in the city that saw over ninety five percent medicaid patients <hes> from the time that they <hes> grew in their first tooth to the time that they turned nineteen and and <hes> so it was working and when mike brown junior was killed i was i came out side. I attended the visuals with children <hes> and while they're while being amongst my community watching people you know just just mourning the loss of a child within the community <hes> i was met with aggressive aggressive of tactics from our police department not just the city of ferguson but saint louis county as well and <hes> aggressive meaning being was riot gear <hes> in a in a time where we were using our constitutional rights to march. That was what you know we were doing at the time and we were met with riot gear. We were met with <hes> guns pointed at us and at the time i had my children with me my daughter miami child who was seven at the time was so afraid that <hes> she broke from my hands to get away from to get to safety and for made that was very <hes> impactful because i had taught my daughter you know if she was ever afraid if she was ever lost you know go up to the police officer. Give them your name. Give him your parents name you telephone number and for her in that space her reality was i was not doing anything and the police we're shooting at a community of people who were you know who were <hes> morton loss of some another child within our community and from that point on it. It told me that i had to be outside so literally for every day our go to work. Come home feed. My baby's changed my clothes and i will be outside in the streets with my i people and what i found was that there was a lot of us in the community who had the same experiences you know we we were dealing dealing with the same things and we were learning on the ground. You know what the who the local politicians were. You know what powers they had what you know who it was controlled what what's the purpose of city manager and all of that was learned so we just started attend city council meetings and and getting more and more involved so can i interject go ahead. Is it okay. I just want to <hes> to france point. I want to illustrate why neighborhood policing is so important because sometimes we hear the term and it can get kind of brushed under the rug as a cliche and i think that's the perfect example and this goes back to the previous caller and what we have to understand understand is that <hes> the with ferguson and many police departments we're doing. We're not getting involved and getting in <hes> in getting to no members of their community and and what that would that be get is a lack of trust lack of credibility so when an when a situation happens with an officer there was no one to style was willing to step up and say you know what i know that officer i know him so you know and i trust him so let's see what the facts are before we <hes> before we make a rush to judgment there that wasn't happening because officers were not getting out of the cars and getting getting to know people and that's what community policing is so important. I know some officers now that if they were ever accused of something there would be a lot of people who would step up and say hold on. I know this individual. Let's let let's hear their side of the story. I put this was happening in ferguson. Officers weren't getting out of their cars getting to know people and theref- and and that's the reason that there's no there was no one in our community that was going to step up and say you know what mr wilson is a good guy. No no one said that because no one knew him and i think that's a lot that's an example of a larger issue that needs to be addressed in addition to <hes> what happened on that fateful there well fran and we have about thirty seconds before we have to take another break here but just let me ask you briefly has trust been restored in any meaningful way between the community and law enforcement in ferguson our let's say no. That's a long term. That's something that's going to have to happen over time. Okay well frank griffin city city council member for ferguson's third ward. The word where michael michael brown was killed. She joins us today. From saint louis missouri wesley bell is also with us also from mm saint louis. He's the prosecuting attorney for st louis county and we are talking about ferguson five years later and the impact that it also has had on the national conversation decision regarding race and policing. We'll take a look at that national level picture more detail when we come back. This is on point. This is on point. I'm meghna chakrabarti. We're talking about five years after ferguson wanna hear your thoughts on how michael michael brown's death and the protests that followed in ferguson missouri five years ago how they change the national conversation policing and race in this country. I'm joined today by friend friend griffin. She's a city council member ferguson's third ward. She joins us from saint. Louis was lee bell is also with us. He's the prosecuting attorney for saint louis county with us from saint louis as as well and joining us now from washington jeff gays he c._b._s. News justice and homeland security correspondent he reported on changes in policing nationwide in the aftermath the ferguson for a special series for c._b._s. That's out this month. He's also author of black and blue inside the divide between police the police and black america jeff jeff good to have you back on the show. Oh so first of all tell us i mean you. What did you observe. You're you're at the. You're reporting on the d._o._j. At the time of michael brown's killing what were sort of the biggest issues that came to light as a result of what happened in ferguson there are so many you but all i'll start with how cell phone cameras introduced this vivid picture of police community relations and and use of force. I think that was the the pivotal evidence if you will that we saw across the country that really the open people's eyes you know the black community of course has been talking about these things for decades but a broader audience now saw what was happening and there were many people who hadn't seen this before who were certainly alarmed and others who were obviously aware became more energized and i i think cell phone cameras really changed the narrative around this issue and forced police departments in cities across the country to grapple with it <hes> to acknowledge now is that there are problems and i think that is the real legacy of ferguson <hes> but also you had eric garner. You had freddie gray. You had <hes> alton <hes> open <hes>. I'm sorry <hes> go alton sterling. Excuse me philander casteel. You had these very <hes> these huge cases and the video evidence was there and i think that's what surprised a lot of the people so i mean you've been reporting about how their police departments across the country to a certain degree underwent a a certain degree of self examination like what kind of changes did they try to implement well. You had to become more transparent. I mean these these are police departments across the country a big and small they were forced to become more transparent <hes> when they have these use of force incidents they were forced to <hes> go public with it's a lot of the information that in the past they would not have gone public with and they would have said well we want to protect the integrity of the investigation however now you're seeing police departments who have to be more transparent <hes> you have police officers wearing body cameras <hes> that that is supposed to increase the transparency <hes> so there have been these changes that have forced police departments across the country this country we to reveal more about their interactions with <hes> commuting members <hes> smaller interactions and then the more high profile file use of force incident so it is really forced these departments to become more transparent so suggests to that point though not everywhere. I mean full disclosure <music>. I'm sitting in a studio in boston. Massachusetts and their process of getting body cams on police officers has been incredibly fraught. There was a lot of pushback from the police department <hes> about even a pilot program around body cam so i don't think there's i mean not questioning your reporting but i'm saying that i don't think there's been this like overwhelming wave of transparency coming out of law enforcement well but but that and you bring up a good point about body cameras yes not every single department. There are eighteen eighteen thousand police departments across this country essentially so yeah not every single police department has embraced body cameras but the majority thirty of the major police departments yes they had to embrace body cameras and what we found is that officers who did not like the idea of body body cameras now in many cases they see them as a positive because body cameras actually clear the good cops wrongdoing right and so you you have the majority of police departments yeah they have to. They have introduced these body cameras. There are some that are reluctant to do so but the majority have introduced body cameras are and are working toward that goal okay fran and wesleyan. Come back to you in just a second but but jeff in your reporting you talked about how police many police departments underwent or had their officers undergo things like implicit bias training has has that proven effective well and and that is what we found in this year long investigation re crisscrossed the country talking to big and smaller departments across across the country and and implicit bias training as you know it was something that was introduced post ferguson by the obama administration <hes> it came out of the twenty honey i <hes> century policing task force that the obama administration led <hes> but what we've found is that there's no real measure <hes> that this implicit bias training is working in fact we talked to rank and file police officers in mesa arizona which is a department that is you know i think by all accounts you know if you look at the high profile incidents there. It is a troubled police department but we talked to rank and file officers. There's there who told us that they thought that implicit bias training was just a big show and was not helping the situation <hes> and it was part of somebody's somebody's agenda and it made all white police officers look as if they are <hes> racist so they did not like implicit bias training. We also went due to <hes> saint louis metro p._d. And the city of saint louis and we talked to officers there who say they don't even remember taking implicit bias training even though the police police department officials told us that it is mandatory for them to take it so that is one aspect of the training really that has you know there are questions about whether it's really making a difference well wesley bill. Would you like to respond to what jeff is found in his reporting. I i agree. I think that and i would just add the caveat that <hes> what we know is that with many of these trainings it depends on the commitment from the department often top-down if a if a chief insists and makes really mandatory that people not only <hes> take these trainings but embrace if these trainings and they're evaluated based on these types of trainings you'll see more of an of a positive impact with things like implicit bias but if it's just sit in front of the of of the computer and and get your hours in then yeah you're right you're not going to <hes> get the type of impact that we would <hes> wanna get and so <hes> with the eighteen thousand police departments in the country. There's no way to measure who is actually taking this seriously and who isn't and so that's going to be a hard thing to measure but i think the fact that we're seeing more of it is a is a positive but we have to make sure that <hes> our leadership in law enforcement understands how important these types of trainings are. Let's go to call derek calling from waterbury connecticut derek. You're on the air. I feel that <hes> a lot of you have to do with the law. The law allows the lack the necessary the need to use deadly force it so lax that even me and i feel like i'm the michael ferguson. I'm that person that's most likely to be pulled over and asked for my my registration license and i reached my back pocket to be at my life. I'm construct just that easy because the law allows them to say i thought he was reaching for a gun and another man running with his back turned and he's getting shot back. Would it back to them. The law allows that and we chase the police officer he's only doing what the law allows him to do when he can do it because his training and it's just wipe back in the slavery days when when they turned the dogs loose on the runaway slave he wasn't it wasn't illegal for him to do that. And is it legal right now now with the shooter derek. Thank you so much for your call wesley bill. Let me turn back to you on that. Because <hes> i guess derek is pointing to the fact that officers can <music> can frequently state that in in the moment they're safe. Their safety was at risk and that's one of the reasons why whatever the incident is happened <hes> and very very often <hes>. That's that's enough for for a court or if prosecutors decide not to bring charges so he does that need to change. Can it well there. There's a it's a little bit more complex and there's a caveat to it is that any laws have to be in compliance with tennessee versus garner which is the supreme court's ruling on an officer's usa force so many so states can not just right any laws that they want with respect to use of force they have to be in compliance alliance and the fact is is that if if an officer <hes> believes that his safety is in danger he can he or she can use deadly force now. Here's here's where training and body cameras come into play because if there's no one there and it's just not even he say she say are he say he say because oftentimes times the assailant is is deceased as a result of a shooting well. That's where body cameras come in in in in the play because now now we have a better idea of what happened. We can see what happened as opposed to just relying on someone's testimony and also that's where training comes comes into play is that when people underwent officers understand that hey you know the implicit buys coach coaches sensitivity but also de de-escalation. You're gonna see less of these situations so i think the more resources that we put into law enforcement that are actually effective. Give the less. We'll see if these types of issues and it comes down last. I'll say recruiting. We got to recruit more people who <hes> who are who are more committed committed to their community understand that <hes> just because someone is different or or or whatever their views may be that <hes> that those trainings trainings those those types of individuals <hes> need to <hes> be involved in in the different types of people need to be involved in law enforcement. That won't just yeah resort shooting people well frank griffin. We've got a couple of minutes left in the show here. And of course we've been focusing a lot on policing itself gulf but it's not just an issue of law enforcement right. It's not just an issue of the use of force. There were whole complex variety of challenges oranges at ferguson face that led to that moment. I mean beyond police what are the the supports. What works still needs to be done in the community at large <hes> so as of right now we need to do a lot of organizing amongst the neighborhoods we have to <hes> find find whites to constantly include the residents of the community into the decision making process whether that means <hes> get a folks is more folks on boards and commissions whether that means <hes> getting them to take <hes> to take the opportunity to <hes> have a voice in who it is that we select is the <hes> the police chief <hes> also having other <hes> coming up with new ways for the community munity to get involved <hes> in terms of <hes> who it is that we have in these positions that are able to <hes> maneuver and make decisions ends on our behalf that are supposed to represent us <hes> get involved getting involved <hes> locally into local politics and understanding what those dynamics are and understanding what we're working towards and getting more people in the community involved in that process as well <hes> all of that adds to community empowerment main all of that <hes> helps change the dynamics of a system that <hes> was originally <hes> <hes> created needed established and run by <hes> people who a small amount of people and not not representing a large majority the people that lived in in the neighbor have things like <hes> you know <hes> african americans being disproportionately pulled over or fine signed <hes> wesley bell mentioned earlier that the county sort of just relied on the income from from <hes> from that to to to to support the county. Ami have have things like that changed or we still seeing still seeing. African americans are disproportionately targeted <hes> i think i think we have some challenges as i'm not sure if you're aware but we have a we have an interim city manager that was cited than a deal and d._o._j. Investigations as encouraging the police department to increase fines and fees <hes> who believes that the main thing we should be doing is compliance not taking into consideration the fact that there are several people within our community that simply can't afford to do some of the things that they're asking to be to comply with and so i think this process is very important because one yes we should be abiding by the law however we need to look at these ordinances. We need to look at things that that impact specifically which is the requirement within the consent decree they impact specifically marginalized communities <hes> people of <hes> who who don't have the finances to be able to take care era of stuff <hes> to to be able to you know. I'm gonna give you a perfect example like me for instance my <hes> my law more went out but didn't have have the finances to be able to get it fixed in the meanwhile. I'm getting notices their my grass is tall so if we've got ordinances that saying that hey you can't have grass above above a certain level but then you don't have the income to be able to address the problem. It's not that you don't want to you. Just simply don't have the income to be able to address the problems. Then what ends up happening is that hall rotation of of generating fees based off of ordinances that are put in place that specifically not affect people who do not have the funds to be able to address down so wesley bell. We've got a minute left to go and i'm so grateful that fran gave us that that example there because doesn't that get to the heart of the matter that they're like really deeper issues here that power the cycle that that the of poor relations between or between let me rephrase that power the cycle that led to what happened five years ago and have we we made any meaningful progress in getting those really deeper issues. I think again if we expect something that has a up an issue that has we we have been struggling with since the beginning of this country to end in five five years <hes> we're misguided the idea although is to start addressing these issues systemically the policies that we've implemented in our office are directly add at doing that examples being getting rid of the cash bail system as well as expanding diversion programs to give individuals who need treatment that helps so that they can avoid the the the void incarceration but to france point exactly. That's that's also something that needs to be addressed. Some people they don't have the finances and we got to work with them and give them opportunities to be able to address these issues while with that. I've got to go and i'd like to thank all my guests wesley bell frank griffin and jeff peg as thank you all so much for joining us today. This is on point.

michael ferguson michael michael brown officer ferguson wesley bell saint louis county ella fran attorney michael brown ferguson ferguson police department frank griffin ferguson city council ferguson ferguson darren wilson france department of justice ferguson community new york times
Finding Grace in the Midst of Racial Division (Part 1 of 2)

Focus On the Family Daily Broadcast

28:04 min | 1 year ago

Finding Grace in the Midst of Racial Division (Part 1 of 2)

"Do the issues in your marriage seem insurmountable. You can break free from cycles of pain with help from focus on the family's hopers stored marriage intensive. We've helped thousands of couples who thought that their marriage was over. Find out which program is right for you. At hope restored dot com there were times when i thought i was too busy he to pray before pharmacy but in my darkest moments never was too busy how long those days were during his darkest days he would lock the door go to the restroom and cry and pray and in those moments when he felt the weakest his faith in god kept him pressing forward five years ago captain ron johnson of the missouri state police was appointed by the governor to be in charge of security in ferguson missouri and at that the whole country was fixated on the rioting and the violence and just the unpredictable situation there in the wake of a police involved shooting which tragically radically resulted in the death of michael brown. You're going to hear more from this man on focus on the family today. Your host is focused president jim daly. I'm john fuller at john. The events of august twenty fourteen or burned into most of our memories as buildings burned and stores were looted and shots rang out in the night in tear <unk> gas was deployed in the streets that always captures the attention of the news and we had it twenty four seven. We're seeing what was going on in the suburb of saint louis. It's called ferguson. It was an awful time in our country's. Most recent history and captain ron johnson was thrust right into middle of it all so he did all that that he knew to do rely on his training. Pray and ask god for help and we're gonna hear this incredible story faith and courage in the midst of some really terrible terrible circumstances. Captain johnson has written a book called thirteen days in ferguson which <hes> really captures his experiences during in those two weeks of upheaval and he's retired thirty year veteran police officer now the founder of lodestone solution group and develops and inspires leaders in and his wife lori had been married for thirty years run. Welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. Jim is such an honor and we don't get a chance often to talk to people who have gone through such amazing circumstances and then reflect on it. You know what was learned what went wrong. What could we do better so. I'm grateful that you here today. You know going back five five years ago and hearing it in your own words is probably the best place for the listeners to start <hes>. What do you remember about the police incident in ferguson. What was your first impression of. What was going on you know when it first happened and especially i i stepped out on the streets of ferguson. I had fear really the first first time in my life or the law enforcement and i really experienced fear and we're you. You're a state trooper. Guess your role at the time as you were in ferguson. What was your assignment was. I was a troop commander for the past fifteen years in saint louis over a troop of about three hundred employees choice and so that was my daily job and so after the shooting that occurred in ferguson was there to assist the local police department from a state vantage point on helping resources yeah. Let's for most people we don't experience instant life and death decisions police officers first responders you do <hes> you're trained to do it but help us understand as a thirty year veteran of the police force how quickly life and death decisions are made and what that environment it is like it does happen rather quickly asserted on our swat team for about ten years and you do have to make these decisions in a split moment allman put a party you have this vision the c. pass what's in front of me and see the person and see the incident and try to go through all the different ways you can to to bring it to a calm bring to a peaceful in for those that may not recall what was happening in described that day what happened to michael brown. What was the officer doing. What were the circumstances stances for those that may not remember may not have heard if that is possible but there had been a report of a young man who taken some cigarillos which is a form of a cigar from a convenience store and a community then two young men were seeing walking down the street in the middle of the street and officer approached the two a young man and asked him to get out of the middle of the street is how they encounter started right later within that encounter. The officer realized that this might be the young man who had taken the cigarillos from the convenience mart and then there had been an economy but a struggle <hes> the officer shots and the young man in dine from mm-hmm is interesting when you look at that incident just on its face a as a police officer first and foremost <hes> what were your impressions russians was handled correctly. Was i mean that's a tough situation for both people but what were your impressions of what went right and what went wrong well. I think you know initially always a lot of questions and it's always unfair to second guess when you don't know all the facts initially all the facts were not there so no one really knew all the facts and there are two different sides coming on two different stories right and so initially. I don't think i really had an impression. I think for me at that moment i knew that someone lost her life and that was someone son someone's fran and so that was my initial reaction to the incident yeah the hours afterward. <hes> many things started to transpire. This became a national rallying cry for police injustice <hes> racial tension all of it. I'm put that in your own words. What were those hours after this encounter like what did the police department do what were the protesters showing up and they from what i understand protesters showed up from all over the country if i've got that right i mean it wasn't just there in ferguson at price started there but what did the mix of <hes> protesters protesters. What were they like. What was their point and what were the police doing about it. You know we had people from all across the world not just a country. We had people from outside the u._s. It actually came to even outside the u yes <hes> and so very emotional after the shooting. The young man actually laid on the streets ferguson for over four hours now. Why was that i mean was there a reason. Was there any rationale. Is that describe that for us that don't working that area what is typical and why was this an outlier well a reason was given but i think that there is no reason that was is good enough to have someone lay on the streets for hours correct now with south has law enforcement and we should have done a better job and when i say we it wasn't actually my department apartment but i wear that uniform and so <hes> it's always easy to buy into what's good and then when mistakes are made to separate yourself so i never do that <hes> but after the shooting and there was a large crowd there was gunfire in the air and in saint louis e._m._s. will not transport it a deceased body and so we had to call a private service in right and it was a husband and wife on the business with gunfire they were told not to get out of their cars so they could provide safety for them and then this time kept going by kept going by and so the young man laid industry discovered up with a sheet is mother was there and the crowds grew and grew in anger as has people put this out on social media right and so there's a lot of pain i think a lot of people felt that no one should be treated that way and that shouldn't happen and so did i and i think even as long for us but even the ones that made the decision liam there unless they thought about it. Yes we should done something different right so the hindsight was there but present moment they were thinking safety and not thinking of the harm that was doing to leave michael's body out on the street and again such tough difficult decisions in you know in this case a couple of hours four hours but you know you regret those decisions. I'm sure the the police department regrets those you know and i for me <hes> doing that. I'm hearing about that because i was traveling from out of town and i was getting reports from my office but what i began to think about if that with my son and how i would feel i begin start feel that pain. It started getting emotional myself. Yeah picturing that run. Let me ask you this and these are comments that i've heard and i remember from the time when that was happening he some would suggest and i don't want to be disrespectful but i want to hear your your answer and we talk about <hes> racial tension. This is where we need honest conversation where we can all have courage to say what we're perceiving ving without being misunderstood so i say that in the spirit because some of the time they were talking about this incident in the context of a young man in who was disrespectful the officer had said get up on the curb. Don't walk in the middle of the street. He turned on him. Seemingly and then a physical altercation occurred in some say this young man didn't want to or didn't understand obeying authority is really important portent and you gotta do what they say. How do you respond to that comment for people that are outside the area that just see this as kind of a young man who didn't know how to respect authority. I doubt those people making those comments would suggest that it was therefore right than for him to lose his life. But how do you respond onto that idea that all of us have to know how to respond to instruction in authority when we're told to do something yes we all. I do have to be able to follow instructions when we're asked to but it's always easy to judge when we're not in that moment we're not there. <hes> we also have to understand. There are a lot the things that are young people face in our country speak to the emotion of that. I really wanna hear it. What's that tension like. What are they responding to. What are they upset about. What where's does that anger coming from while i think there's a sense especially urban communities of a lack of respect it goes both ways and then becomes angered there becomes that that <hes> you embattled on your decision making and so sometimes when we're confronting individuals. It's not necessarily that hate us as a person but but it's this discussion that we stand for right and so. I think that there's a lot that goes into that not being there that day. It's hard to know that but i think respect goes both ways. I think it's about conversation. Our conversation can't start mist of chaos. Conversation can't start in the the moment and we can't respect each other when we haven't communicated beforehand before incidents well one of the asset question not to lead the a discussion but a friend of mine african american friend told me jim the problem was not that flashpoint. It was the history of the racism from the police department in the past. I and i don't know if that's fair either but that was his comment that that was an expression of several symptomatic things that were going on that this was a kind of a <hes> ingrained attitude within the ferguson police department but you're from there. I mean tell me. Is that even accurate. Was there trouble they're already yes. Yes there was not a good relationship with law enforcement and community. You know ferguson. They say there's two sides ferguson. There's a side that's more diverse and aside. That's more african american right. The side is more african. American citizens would say that they're only in college with the police was when something negative what's happening. <hes> <hes> a lot of them said that they could name one place that could name what the chief was and so there's not a relationship there's not a sense of respect and so i think you're afraid is absolutely right. Yeah yeah you know that was the tipping point right water in the pot founding walled out which is why when we look at it as a national news story we see just this incident we don't get the whole picture sure of what was going on and why the frustration was there so i appreciate that insider so there was some real pent up emotion and some issues underlying what happened if i recall correctly deteriorated really rapidly right yeah. This was not just a few people hanging out. I mean if you've got gunshots in a growing wing mob. There's something else going on here. Yes the following day on sunday. Things really skyrocket that saturday there were large crowds but the next x-ray it just really involved in what ways more gunshots there was a building local gas station where they thought that this incident had occurred heard and thought they were the ones that reported the theft it was burned to the ground and then there was looting a lot of stores were looted and so it really took a dangerous actress turned in the midst of all that yet fellow troopers say something that really wounded you what was that it was a friend of mine and we had been friends and shared moments at different events together where wives and we're in the midst of the crowd and he says we need to leave and i said no. We need to stay and he talked about what you're comfortable. These people respect you and your compliment the rest of us. We need to move out and the way that he said these people really troubled me and i think that people were there because they were hurt and i think what you were saying to me. Is that basically you're one of them right and i'm not and that's not the way that i've read policing right. That's not the way that i thought he viewed me. What's kind of the core. Issue isn't it. That's the issue. I mean them an us rather than we you're exactly right you know we talked at the beginning of the book that i wrote and whenever i signed that book and autographed books for people i put i am you put that in every book no matter who you are because because i think in essence we're all part of each other in some winters things that we share no matter what our caller and our gender in our believes in run that that gets to the core issue of your faith because we haven't mentioned the intricate nature of your faith and how that begin to play into this moment in your life. I mean you weren't isolated. I'm sure you're praying more more than ever. But what role did your faith play. I mean what happened. After that encounter from what i understand the book you went into a restroom. Just begin to cry i did. Did you know the first day when i found out that i was going to be assigned as security commander i walked down the streets of west florida and as i got halfway down these ladies came out and they said can we pray for you and i'm thinking of all this chaos. You know people throwing rocks people yelling things screaming the police get off the street. These women wanted to pray for me so i said yes and they hold around me and for that moment. I didn't in here any bottles being thrown. I didn't hear any <hes> names rian thrown out. It was this up a sense of peace yeah and at that moment i knew that my faith would carry harry me and guide me through yeah. It's so good i mean what a great example for all of us to follow not only when we're in the midst of trouble but when we're just waking up and going through our day to rely on the lord to guide us through that day it seems like we as believers in christ we really lean into the lord when we're in trouble all right when we don't know what to do kind of where you were at in that moment you mentioned being signed the commander of security. I'm not sure what that meant as i was reading through you you still had a ferguson police chief in the governor without really talking to you ahead of time or any of his staff talking to you. You heard him mention your name on television. Is that right no actually we. There's a ferguson police chief within. There's an area police chief of a larger police apartment and he actually took over cheap job boomers. Saint louis county actually took over command incident for the first five days. Then the governor five days later decided he was going to have a news this conference and so he wanted everybody there he wanted all the law enforcement leaders there. A lot of politicians were their religious leaders were there and so i was told to a tin tin bhai my boss and i asked my boss what's going on. He goes. I don't know but the governor's coming into town is said he's wanna talk and give us views and opinions and so we get there and the governor come into a room and he's talking to all the law enforcement politician the needs steps back and he says i'm gonna make a change immediately and he says effective right now l. captain ron johnson's in charge of security for the ferguson and you didn't even know he knew your name right. Wow right okay okay. What were your emotions like at that point when you're going wait a minute well at the moment thinking why that's amazing somebody else i mean when you think of leadership leadership which you know your book and what you do now is kind of helping leaders right right you know for me at that moment. I kept saying why me but then. I said that's not a question for you to ask how interesting <hes> the question is is that this is a blessing and you've been given and guy gives we know more than you can bear and you have to continue to walk with that yeah and so that's why i decided to walk down the streets of parking because that's all that i knew because they didn't have a plan when i got in front of the podium autumn say what is your plan and i wanted to say. I just found out fifteen minutes ago those in charge. I admire your courage. I mean i'm just sitting here as a leader myself thinking wow that is amazing thing and you had to respond. Did you then come to the microphones. Did they invite you to come and speak. I did speech without steph initial speech for me. Okay that was thoughtful. That's what they didn't do. The set when i came to the podium the second time after the governor spoke again. They didn't give me a sheet to answer the questions. I was going it'd be asked that's tough yeah well. We're hearing right from the heart of a man who is in the middle of a lot of chaos and had to really lean on the lord he captures. There's these experiences so well in his book thirteen days in ferguson. We're talking to captain ronald johnson on focus on the family and call us so we can and send a copy of this book to you. It's eight hundred the litter a in the word family and we'll have additional details in the episode notes run. I want to step back a little bit. <hes> when your dad was a police officer yes tell me about your relationship with him and was he the reason that you wanted to become a police officer asked my dad was a police officer. Local university versity in saint louis always admired him so what he stood for and when you put that uniform on the pride that he had when he walked out the door but when he would come home and the stories i would hear him talk to my mom about wasn't about people they arrested because about people he helped always valued that yeah and removed to a predominantly white neighborhood. I think sometime in your childhood encountered you know people. That weren't too friendly to family. What what was that like. It was different. You know i grew up in a community that was predominantly african american in central city and then we move when it was about nine or ten commute were the only african american family on our street wow and so it was a new environment for us but it was also a new environment for our new neighbours sure and so i became challenging and i think that for us a lot of our neighbors things that they had seen on t._b. And things that had heard about african americans was their belief life about african americans and you had some neighbors running over your lawn and yes night and spend the cars and then one night someone hit the fire hydrant and our whole families in our home and the police are there and walk out but nobody knocked on her door until my mother went have to turn on the water. The water is not working right and then she heard some noise outside with the police are knocked on her door. Tell us what had happened and your dad's as a police officer at this point right. Yes that's amazing. I don't quite understand that. How did you manage that. How old were you. How'd you process that. It was double coat. You know my dad had been injured in a car accident but he went out there and he stood as a strong man even though he walked with his cane but he went out there in the midst of this crime and some were calling him name but he went out there and he just stood tall and never reacted and and <hes> and brought the situation to a call. It was a scary time for us yeah because i can look at the fear on my mom's is as we all stood looking at peering out the window to see for our dad was going to be okay but also trying to figure out what happened and you were called names right. I mean you experience that straightforward. Yes at that time. I mean i i didn't grow up in that kind of environment so meaning. I was in a multi-racial situation in california but i don't recall a lot of that going on. I mean it sounds odd. Maybe i missed it. I was a boy but <hes> a man. That's got to sting ahead. What does that do to your dignity. When people not knowing you treat you so poorly well it hurts because ause you know for us and our home we had never talked about that because we had never experienced it and so for the first time now kids. We're bringing that to our parents eh. What does this mean. I don't know what it means but it hurts tone. I've never heard that tone but i think for the kids after i got older kids that were saying that really didn't know what it meant many either yeah someone had told him these are the names that you say and because i think hey does something that's taught and so i think that you know someone had told him those names as they thought ah these are the names and i should say <hes> but later on we will become friends yet so interesting i it's taught year right <hes> we we demonstrated or on dinner tables or conversation about current events and things like that and that's one reason we wanted to do the show with you. Because it's an important topic i mean when you look at our country and where we're had this is kind of the underlying issue <hes> the racial tension the racial divide and <hes>. I'm just grateful grateful that you've put this into a story. Let's come back. There's so much more to talk about. I want to get on with that year. Thrust into this role role but again describe for me as commander did the police chief of ferguson or the other gentleman that was given authority <hes> kind of the wider police police authority. Did he report to you or did you report him or what was the the mechanism there who made the decisions on the ground tear gas and to do other other thanks he's. I know you had to make some tough calls. We know initially i reported to him but then after the governor put charts an essence he was supposed to report to me but i needed his partnership absolutely support until this day. We're friends and we see each other. We embrace when that run. That's one of the core things and we're gonna have you come back tomorrow and we're going to continue this discussion because i want to get into the night and those events that occurred over the next thirteen days and some of those decisions you needed to make the way the community responded to you as we end today. I think one of the core things to hear from you is making making those controversial decisions. Let's at least talk about one <hes> <hes> when the marchers were marching you decided to march with them as an officer you talk about the tension a moment ago within your command structure in the police either rallying around your leadership or pulling back doc marching with the marchers. I can only imagine what they were feeling and what they're trying to understand about what you were demonstrating. What are you doing ron. Tell us about that moment in the decision to marge and how all the factions responded to that decision decision in march i think too often when we had this divide between law enforcement communities because community believes that we don't see their faces and we don't hear the voices so is this nighttime daytime daytime. Okay it's daytime. How many people are marching <hes>. There's thousands there's hundreds hundreds of people marching march down the street. More people start to get into the march right here. You are in uniform and you go up to whom and say i'm going to march with you. I mean what did they. How did they respond to you. When i go up to a pastor that i knew and it was passer tracy blackman and and i knew her and i know our kids and our kids are friends and i walk up to her. She congratulates me on being assigned man. Thanks a lot so <hes> she says. Why are you here as the one. I'm here to march with you. She was leading the march and she says i'd rather you not and then i laugh because i'm thinking she's she's joking. We're friends when i walked to our call to tracy and she said i'm serious. I'd rather you not and then. I looked at her because at that moment that's all that i had right. I had no plan but i knew i wanted to walk down the street. I wanted to see the people. I wanted to understand everything that they were going through everything that they felt and so i looked at her with tears in my eyes and i call her pastor blackman and i said i need to march for me and i said i'll march in the back. If you'd let me march on march it back and we give by <hes> the crowds. I'll veer off but i need to start this march and she looked at me and said no. You could mark the margin in front with me. Did she ever express to you why she hesitated. What was the concern was just being an officer what you represented as a police officer not a friend you know i never asked but i asked her that to myself and i said to myself that initially when i had shocked when i was put in charge but by the time an hour later by the time i got to that mark i was feeling pretty good about ron johnson than i was somebody special while and i think that answer would know was saying god humbled me that you're nobody special i've given catas- and so that is why i believe she said no. I asked myself well ron. I mean what that's inspiring and what a place to n but we're gonna come back. Next time continued the discussion and i wanna get into those days events and what took place. Can we do that just we can't. Let's do it <hes> boy. I hope you're feeling failing and hearing an incredible testimony of a man who is humbly trying to do the assignment given to him and you know in this kind of situation where it is packed act with racial contention and the events of ferguson it that's headline news but i think the lord calls each and every one of us at different sometimes in our life in a very similar way to be faithful to the call. Don't ask why i love that run. Don't ask why just do it just start walking with me and and <hes> we can apply this to our lives in so many ways. Will we want to encourage you to get a copy of <hes> captain johnson's book thirteen days in ferguson donate donate when you get in touch. We'll send a copy of that to use our way of saying thank you for joining our support team and you can do that by calling eight hundred the letter a. in the word family eight hundred two three two six four five nine and we'll have additional details in the episode notes behalf of gym daily and the entire team. Thanks for joining s. today four focus on the family. I'm john fuller inviting you back. We'll continue the conversation with captain johnson and once again help. You and your family thrive in christ.

ferguson officer Captain johnson commander saint louis captain ron johnson michael brown ferguson police department john fuller ferguson saint louis jim daly tracy blackman missouri president lodestone lori fran
Protesters vs. a presidential photo-op

Post Reports

26:14 min | 6 months ago

Protesters vs. a presidential photo-op

"From the newsroom of the Washington Post. there. Is the mayor wrestling with the? Washington Post Doc-. Pick your brain on. John. This is post report I'M MARTINE POWERS! It's Tuesday June second. Today, the story behind the president's photo op why the feds have failed to take on police and what happened after a restaurant burned down? Outside the White House yesterday, there had been peaceful protests. Ashley Parker covers the White House for the Post. You know you can't right now. Get exactly up to the White House, but they were in Lafayette Park across from the White House. Some people were singing. Someone was painting on an Easel, and then there was a curfew in DC for seven PM and the president on Monday made the last minute decision to address the nation from the Rose Garden and shortly before the president was scheduled to speak. Authorities basically began clearing the protests, using tear-gas, using flash grenades, and the scene very quickly devolved into mayhem, and it created this striking split-screen with the president. Very much. My fellow Americans, my first an highest duty you had the president beginning to speak from the Rose Garden. You could hear the flash courteous going off by the brutal death of George, Floyd. My administration is fully committed. You could smell a bit of the tear gas. You could hear what was going on. Protesters screaming, coughing some of them, vomiting, running away and both happening simultaneously. and. Why were police trying to clear the area around the white? House if President was going to be speaking from the Rose Garden and that wouldn't have been affected by the protests. After the president finished speaking, he decided to basically stage a photo op where he walked from the White House with a small cadre of senior advisors across Lafayette. Park into the historic Saint John's Episcopal church where he's handed a Black Bible. And he turns. He faces the cameras that he's brought with him, and he holds it up in right hand kind of awkwardly and he doesn't. Say anything he doesn't really doesn't read from it. He doesn't quote from it from memory. He just stands there for a photo opportunity before turning and heading back to the White House. So essentially what we understand happened is that the police tear gassed protesters to allow president trump to have a photo op in front of this church. Basically, yes. So, can you take us back a day or two of what was transpiring behind the scenes in the White House that led up to this moment in this decision to go over to the church. A number of things were happening. You have to keep in mind and it's almost hard to remember that the country is actually in the middle of a deadly pandemic right, so you have a president who is reeling from the fallout of the corona virus, which so far has left over a hundred thousand Americans dead, and then after George Floyd, an unarmed black man. Man Died in police custody in Minneapolis, the nation was then plunged into deep seated racial unrest that led to riots and protests, sometimes peaceful, sometimes that turned into looting across the nation. So you have a president who feels deeply out of control, also his poll numbers are faltering against his Democratic rival Joe. Biden and he's watching all of this happened on Cable News. On Friday night as protests got close to the White, house the President was briefly rushed down into a secure bunker and he did not like the ensuing media coverage. You have to keep in mind. This is a particularly devastating criticism for him. Because he for the past several months, frankly has been painting Joe Biden hiding in his basement hiding in his bunker, and now the president, the leader of the United States during racial unrest is being accused of doing the exact same thing, and of course there are these photos. Photos of the White House during that time of basically all the lights turned off except for one, and this appearance of no one is home at the White, house right and you know the president's critics fairly or unfairly, basically loud that charge at him right you. You are a leader who is cowering in your week and that is the thing. The president hates more than anything else, so he wanted to reassert control he wanted to show. He was strong and dominant and powerful in the meantime on Sunday night. Again the protests and riots continued all across the nation including in Washington. DC including right outside the white. House in they did turn violent. In some cases, right storefronts were shattered saint. John's Church was vandalized. There was graffiti on the National Monument to so you have a president who is taking this all in on television and again basically is very upset by the images of the streets, being out of control, especially, the streets in Washington DC especially the streets right outside of his home, and he wakes up Monday morning and wants to do something. And again I saw this against the backdrop of an internal debate going on in the white. House about should. The president addressed the. The Nation in some way race. Should he play the role of calm and so clearly he wanted to talk to the public. But how did he come on? This idea of I need to go to the church that was vandalized, and I need to stand in front of it, and and present some kind of image. There I mean this is a president who thinks in marketing and Brandon and photo opportunities, and I think he thought this was the ultimate photo. OP. I think he thought that the images of him see mean grimly determined and resolute in the rose, garden and striding across the street as protesters fled would help burnish the MSCI watts of a of a strongman. Tough, Guy Law and order leader. And what do we knew about what the reaction to? This photo has been so far and especially among people who who are either trump supporters, or who could potentially be voting for trump November sue some trump supporters and people affiliated with his world had the reaction he intended for them to have. They are sharing the image of him doing this. They're sharing basically the photo opportunity that he staking lease setup in staged. They're saying how courageous and bold and tough. He is, but a lot of people including some people inside the White House. House and including some Republicans. Who may be supported him a bit hesitantly? In Two Thousand Sixteen are absolutely horrified by the images they saw, and there's also people you know. Local city officials in Washington DC, but also officials affiliated with Saint John's historic church goer, absolutely outraged. They say the president use the Bible as a prop. He used the church. As you know a green screen backdrop, he'd give the Church and he heads up. They learned about this the way. The rest of the nation did on on live television, and they find it completely, Gauley and immoral and. Devastating. So, what do you think there's? Shows about how trump is thinking about the protests, both in DC and around the country, and and the role that he sees himself playing in that. The president is frustrated angry at the protests, and he doesn't seem particularly interested in understanding the root of them right not just the Killian of George Floyd but the long simmering racial animus in inequalities and injustices in our country, and you saw vice president, Joe Biden Tuesday morning. Give a speech addressing that and that's not the role the president at least right now. Now, believes he is supposed to play I. talked to a former campaign adviser on his twenty sixteen campaign, who said look the president was reminded that he was elected, not as a hand holder in chief, not as a consoler in chief, but as a law and order tough guy who is going to get things done, and that's what you saw Monday night. and I wonder if part of the reason you're seeing this rhetoric from the president is because he doesn't see this role of being consoler in chief for or hand holding chief. He doesn't see it as a path toward reelection that for the people who agree with the protests. They're probably not going to vote for him anyways, and for the people who don't. He is playing to them I. think that's right. I think it's twofold I. Think the Corio have to keep in mind the. Does not come naturally to him. It's not something he feels comfortable with. It's not something he likes to do. It's something he can occasionally feign when reading from scripture reading from a teleprompter, but it's not core to who he is, but then to your second point. That's exactly right normally when presidents are. Elected they believe they have their base, and they understand that they of course have to shore up their base and try to keep the promises they made, but then they try to move to the middle right to win over that section of the country that may be didn't support them the first time, but are the political independence or or the moderates, because that in general is the best path towards reelection, but trump is someone who sort of his never tried to govern. Very much for the people who did not support him in did not vote for him, and always especially in moments of of crises or or decision, doubles and triples down on his base right, and he would rather try to have a very animated very excited very motivated. Base that he can expand a bit then trying to expand into just generally larger swath of the country. At least those are. The policy is in the rhetoric that he puts out. For whatever reason among all of the devastating in destructive images we saw yesterday that stuck with me was there was a moment where the National Guard at this point. The protesters are still peaceful in the national. Guard, they move towards them. And then suddenly they bend down and take a knee and our reporters on the scene. Right that first the crowd cheered. Thought they were were taking a knee in solidarity, which some police forces in militaries have been doing around the country to sort of silently say I'm I'm with you two, but then the crowd realized that the National Guard had taken a knee had bent down so that they were able to put on their gas masks, and they were preparing to tear gas. To flash grenade an advance on on the protesters into. You have this moment of. What they think is fleeting solidarity, and then it just gives way to sheer pandemonium and terror in that, for whatever reason there's so many images that have been hard to get out of my mind over the past couple of days with that is the one that is most stuck with me. Ashley Parker covers the White House for the Post. On Tuesday The Washington Post reported that Attorney General Bill Bar had personally ordered law enforcement to clear the protesters in Lafayette Park ahead of trump's appearance. I we are ending the riots at lawlessness that has spread throughout our country. We will end it now. Today I have strongly recommended to every governor. To deploy. The National Guard insufficient numbers. That, we dominate the streets. A lot of state governors have deployed the National Guard to the arrests in various cities, but yesterday president trump threatened to deploy active duty military, if a city or state refuses to take the actions that are necessary to defend the life and property. Of Their residents then I will deploy the United States military and quickly solve the problem for them. Matt's appetizers on National Security reporter for the Post. And is that a thing that he actually can do like? Is there a justification for sending in US troops against protestors so legally? He can do it politically. It would be very very dicey. There's this thing called the Posey comitatus. which generally prohibits using military to enforce domestic laws? However, it has some exceptions, and there's another law called the insurrection act which spells out exceptions to that, and in moments of undressed like this. If the president feels essentially that state residents aren't getting protected, state laws aren't being enforced. He can deploy duty military to those states. We saw that during the Rodney King riots in that instance, the governor of California actually requested a deployment of active duty military. We also saw that at times during the civil rights movement kind of most famously when the president deployed troops to Arkansas to facilitate the desegregation of schools there, but you said that this would be a politically dicey prospect for president trump. Why is? Is that well I think a ready. You have protesters who are upset at the kind of militarized police response to them to the FBI very aggressive crackdown, so what is escalating that crackdown GONNA? Do you on some measure sure? The military has a lot of tools in training, and maybe could attempt to put down some of the looting and other things we've seen, but our government is kind of based on faith faith in our leaders, and what you don't want to do is have a situation where the citizens and the military or at odds that the citizens feel like the president is using his power to oppress them rather than to just enforce the laws. He doesn't feel or being enforced. Met You know one of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you. Today is also because you covered the Department of Justice. And I think that when we think about why. These protesters are out on the streets. Why they're so outraged I would like to see a reform of law enforcement. I would like to see full accountability for any police officer who harms a citizen? Does cute. Police officers must be held. The justice system can't protect them any longer. They can't pretend like this isn't happening. Needs to happen says. Police. A lot of that comes back to policing tactics, not just during protests, but all the time and you've been doing a lot of reporting on how the Department of Justice has looked at these policing tactics in the past, and I wonder if protesters are calling for this widespread change in policing. How has that looked in the past when you've had the federal government tried to step in and change how policing works. So. We've had moments of unrest before. If you think back to some of the fiery protests in Ferguson. Federal Government of course stepped in and said they would investigate the incident that sparked that the death of Michael Brown, but they also said Eric holder was the attorney general at the time said that he would investigate broadly the patterns and practices of the Ferguson Police Department, how their officers were trained how they used force even how they treated suspects in custody in their jail. Jail. We are here today to announce the latest steps in the Justice Department's ongoing efforts to address the situation in Ferguson Missouri, and it was part of this bigger push by the Obama administration to prompt broad reforms, a police department, not to just attack individual incidents, but to force broad kind of systemic changes to use their power to affect that result as a result of. Of this history and an extensive review of documented allegations and other available data, we have determined that there is a Co. there's costs for the Justice Department open an investigation to determine whether Ferguson police officials have engaged in a pattern or practice of violations of the United States constitution for federal law, and what happened with those investigations. How did they end up? Yeah, so and. and. It wasn't just Ferguson. I guess I should say first off the Obama Administration. During its tenure launch twenty five investigations, big sweeping investigations of local law enforcement agencies they look at you. Know How they're trained to stop people what they view as probable cause. What supervision they have what equipment they have. It varies place to place, but these are really broad looks at. At anything that might be a reason that police departments are stopping too many black people or using force too much. How those often played out and how that played out in Ferguson is the department issues a scathing report assessing up and down what has gone wrong over the years at the Ferguson Police Department, and then they negotiate with Ferguson to enter what's called a consent. Consent decree, so this is like a legal agreement where the Ferguson police. Department says we will make X. Y., Z. Changes, and then they filed that in court, and then over the years. Ferguson is kind of monitored in a court can enforce them. Instituting those changes in the Obama. Administration did that other places to Right Baltimore which actually still has a consent decree going on. On Cleveland, it was other places aside from Ferguson. And so, how effective were those agreements? Were this changes at the federal government was working with these police departments to implement well. The results are kind of mixed I have to admit the Washington. Post, did a big study of these consent decrees. They're called in their effectiveness, and it is definitely true. Our review found they definitely. Definitely modernized the training and the equipment, and some of the practices, but they have a little bit of a mixed record on whether they reduced the use of force or eliminated bad use of force incident. So certainly they made some improvements, but these are not a silver bullet. They're sort of one tool that the department can use to for some change at police department. So this broad level approach from the federal government to look at how different police departments are doing policing. Has that continued during the trump administration? It has not trump's I attorney general. Jeff sessions was a very public skeptic of these consent decrees. He just didn't feel like it was the federal government's role to be second guessing local law enforcement, and it was kind of in keeping with the trump administration's tough-on-crime stance. So you know soon after he's sworn in Jeff sessions, says we're. We're going to review all these consent decrees that were a part of now, and on the way out, he instituted new policies that essentially make it a lot harder for the department to enter into these the trump administration has taken position that look. It's not our place to be second guessing entire police departments, we can give them grant money we can you know back the blue so to speak, but wore not going to be trying to force reforms at the federal government level. So then how is the Department of Justice responding to what happened to George Floyd, and are they going to be doing any investigation into the Minneapolis Police Department they're under a lot of pressure to do a broad investigation of the Minneapolis. Police Department so far. They've announced that they're conducting civil rights investigation into the death itself, but that's different than these pattern or practice cases, which looked not just at individual incidents but entire departments. All the Democrats on the House Judiciary has called for the department to launch a pattern or practice investigation into the Minneapolis. Police Department other civil liberties. Leaders similarly have called an apartment to do that. They have not done that yet and they've just done that so rarely in their tenure I think there's one case that I was able to find investigating this narcotics unit in Massachusetts it's just not a tool that the trump administration likes to us now, so they're certainly under a lot of pressure to investigate the Minneapolis police. We'll see if they do. We'll see if that. That pressure sort of overcomes their stance, but so far no, they have not announced. They are doing such an investigation. So what we're seeing from protesters now these calls for widespread change in policing that that are in many ways mirror what was happening actor Ferguson, but now we have a federal government that is much less willing to engage with police departments to talk about those widespread changes, and to actually do something about it. It seems like the chances are even less now than they would have been five years ago to actually have some significant change across the country. Civil liberties advocates have very little hope of police reform. It was already a difficult thing for the federal government to force and here you have an administration that is pretty much unwilling to be in the business of forcing it at all. Matt's Appetizer Ski covers the Justice Department for the Post. Now one more thing from the daughter of a business owner in Minneapolis. I'm huff Sislansky. I'm eighteen. I live in Minneapolis Minnesota. and. My family owns Gandhi Mahal restaurant. The restaurant actually caught on fire and it was. Burned down gone more is across the street from the third precinct. I was angry. Because this is my family's livelihood, you know this. Family's only source of income this is how I pay for school things like that, but the anger that iphone for the building being burned down only lasted. A few moments then it became the anger of. Why does this keep happening? Why is it that? We keep losing lives. What can be do to make sure that this doesn't keep happening I to? Reconnect with the problem. The problem is these injustices that anger that I was feeling after tearing that was that energy you know we need to get justice the anger of needing to get justice. All those families that lost people they deserve to see justice being served. We can never ever return George Floyd Trayvon Martin or any of the people. The innocent lives lost. We can never return them to their families. You know so. Our building fell down. Yes, that sucks, you know. All right. We can build it back. It's GonNa. Be Hard to bring it back. You know we don't know exactly how we're going to afford to bring our building back, but so be it. You know we can never return. George Floyd to his family. Something just needs to happen. Half as long lives in Minneapolis. That's IT for post reports. Thanks for listening. You can learn more about the stories in today's show at post reports dot com and join the conversation online easing the Hashtag post reports I'm Martine powers. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.

president White House Washington DC George Floyd Police Department Minneapolis United States Justice Department federal government Ferguson Church DC trump Washington Post Joe Biden Attorney John Ashley Parker Rose Garden
DeRay Mckesson: Out of the Quiet

LGBTQ&A

31:09 min | 2 years ago

DeRay Mckesson: Out of the Quiet

"From the advocate magazine, I'm Jeffrey masters and you're listening to LGBT q.. And a. today I'm talking to d'auray. McKesson, jury is a civil rights activist. One of the most recognizable faces and black lives matter movement and the author of on the other side of freedom. We talk about what the black lives matter movement has accomplished what still being worked on. And then direct poses a really interesting question that he says he doesn't have an answer to and not as that when Donald Trump is no longer presidents and that suddenly doesn't mean everything's gonna be okay when that happens. And when the threat is less overt, will we still be as mobilized do something about it as we are now, so that conversation is coming up. But before we get to it, if you've not yet subscribed the podcast, please do that. We have new interviews with the most interesting and influential members of the LT q. community every week. And when you subscribe and leave a comment. Towns that is one of the biggest ways you can help our show grow. Thank you for that. All right. Without further ado, here's derive. The majority of people got to know you at Ferguson during the protest after Michael Brown was murdered and your whole life changed after that up until that point, what did you expect to be doing with your life is so much? My career working issues of children and families. I was like my thing tossed three math open after school center, worked in the school system in Baltimore in when Mike Brown was killed, I was working Minneapolis public schools, so kids that was like my focus. That was my thing. The only reason I went to Saint Louis was because they killed a kid, a teenager, and I was like, these are the same young people that I sent my entire career trying to make sure they agreed teacher is in great principles and the best custodians nurses. So that's what I like thought about for the long haul. I wasn't a point in my career where I was like, I did this. We're going to big school system. I did in a smaller school system trying to figure out like when my next sort of thing would be in public education in everything changed. Are your students apprised at where. We've ended up. Interesting. We did a book then in New York in one of my students, I like him by the one of my students who I saw like literally cupcake shop. I walk into my Jeremy. He's like bist McKesson, I'm like, oh, he's a, I can. I remember we were on the playground like straight up a TV, show him in another one of his friends at the time, walk up dust and me and miss bales it together. And he's like, are you going to be our teachers? And we will like yes as twenty. Oh. Oh, I get issue like a bad. I taught math, so we didn't have these deep racist Gushin's in classes dot mat. So it is cool to be an adult is cool for them to be an adult. When you were teacher and then minister where you out of the 'cause then like to the kids administering? I was never a school administrator. I worked at the district level, so I like ran all human capital for the school system. Interesting. And then I like worked in the center office. I was not like a principal on my sister's principal elm entry school was I out when I was a teacher, I wasn't when I was a teacher hadn't. I didn't date anybody until I didn't kiss about do anything until my second year in the classroom. Actually, really one of the students. Delete delete. We until ties that New York City. Yeah. So. Well, in outta Alec had never dated anybody out yourself then though. So wasn't out in the classroom. And then at home when I moved back the school program, I don't know. Like I wasn't I n date anybody like the brief relationship. I had a New York ended. In men. I think when when I was in Minneapolis, I was like, when I left the school system, I think when I like went to the school system, so I. I came back and I was just call center, and then I train and support a new teachers. And I was like, it was like really clear. I was like very publicly gay then. And your book, it's the first time that you've written about being gay. This is like a weird question. I'm like, is there a reason for that? This is the first time now I think about, I'd never wanted people to to things. One is, and I've said this before is an anybody think that the only way to do work publicly around social Justice was to hide raise. So like it was important to me to be publicly out very early. I think that one of the reasons that I hesitated in writing about being gay is that have lived a pretty public light in my peers in my peer group since this really on because to government as the president of like my middle school, high school and college, and like. Love was like, the only thing that was mine was like the only thing I've ever to share it was the only thing that I didn't have to talk about all day. It was like everything else. Everybody knew. People knew my parents were data drugs even came from Baltimore. People knew like you knew my sister. You need like there was nothing else that was just mind like you saw on campus and you? My friends, I love was the one thing that like I only share with the people really close to me as the only topic that like only the people who really knew me we talked about, I knew other people talking about it, but I didn't care because I think what is so I'm proud of that chapter. The hard part is there? No, they're no longer anything's only and that is actually a weird thing about the book is that this was the last thing that was like just mind to like. I just didn't publicly engage conversation about love. I would push back and say that you talk about being gay, but you don't actually talk about any specific relationships. It's like. Games. Had probably too serious relationships. And they were to recent write about them like really be writing about like a person and that was too much. Gotcha. Are using now. I mansion that you cannot use dating and hookups. Nobody Jack decks appointed when I ran for mayor sweet. They sound like a nationwide alert. Wait, Jack, Jack, Jack. Oh, like Twitter, that's not retaining. That'll be terrain against his Jack Jack. Oh, that's very funny. Totally like supporting the campaign like very kind. Gotcha. If I was phantom not recommended. I don't think n. well. Tell me this. I hear two conflicting things on this podcast about the black community and one is that they are incredibly homophobic on the whole. And the other one is that the black community is not homophobic. It's just a myth, and I wonder what your experience is in terms of that, I think people are homophobic. So I think that like that is real. I think that people probably talk about the homophobia black communities because that's the communities we live in grow in. Right. I think that there's something interesting about the way that homophobe black churches has just seeped into culture and like what that, how that shows up what it means, how you feel it like sushi given historical role of the black churches like a cultural institution. So I think that there's something interesting there's a site of interrogation. I think that there's also way that masculinity has been policed in blackness that is has for so many people been a mechanism of survival. So you think about what does it mean to grow up in neighborhoods like numb, how to fight isn't just like a sort of a nice to have its necessity. Right? You're like that physical being able to protect yourself physically, he's actually like into being able to present yourself and like a traditionally masculine way is something that helps you stay alive. So it's it's not like it's not like, oh, this is like a cool thing to do today. This is like a survival technique Cray. And I think that the confluence of those things make the way the homophobia shows up in blackness different that add texture and context. Homophobe is like president all communities, right? It just like the way it manifests might be different. And that's a great example of how we feel comfortable telling single stories about Martinez communities only. Right. There's plenty of white homophobic, but we would never say white people are. I also think that we don't see a lot of people of color who are queer represented in the media. And it's like the very few stories we get push. Right? Let's say homophobia in the black community, and so we just assume like, oh, that's all stories in the county center. Talk about homophobia that is less over. You know, people have like people know the lead calling you faggot. People know that like those are the really overt raise it. We understand one of the ways homophobia shows up in women for instances idea that you're like an accessory, right? You're like a really cool perio- rings like a cool person, like the moment that you be the moment that you no longer are Dorning something that you actually unpalatable anymore. Right? And that's a that is like a way that people like manage power and proximity. Right? What does it mean when it's like the homophobia? It's like, I love you. Belichick I hold my kids not gay, you know, that is like not love either. Right? And I'm interested in like how we start to bring those things. So the public conversation, I think one of the things that I get in the movement is idea like I can't be strong. Can't be transformational. Can't be like, can't have radical. Can't be revolutionary cause I'm gay that like you actually stripped of every marker strength like you just doesn't exist anymore, then that that is put on, you know, I know it really well, I, I'm surprised because like black lives matter, for example, is a movement with many leaders by design, and yet you are one of the most recognizable faces and those are weird characteristics to apply to a a leader in the movement, but also get the leg. I don't like people, but I like you and you're like, that doesn't really work, right? I'm not like a landing spot for your hate. I'm Alec the safe-space for eight or I like one gay person. It's fine. Yeah, I know you're good tonight from promise me. I don't wanna sleep with you anyway. That's like not like you think that everybody's kidding you. It's admitting you, this is Matt too, isn't it? I said that you were one of the most recognizable faces in the black lives. Matter movement. Is there tension there. I think that there is, you know. A mindful that the visibility in the platform that I had was like, sudden, I know that exist in. It existed. You like work? That's bigger than me that Israel. I think that there are people who who think visibility is a lot of things that is in an people who like the seamy with. They saw the picture me and beyond say, they see the picture of me and whatever, and they don't realize that. All of these are talking about Justice in the work like it's not, you know, we're not like planning barbecues, and I think that people think that we're just like partying all day and you're like, no relate actually just talking about, like we're texting about, I think about one of black minute, Florida Campo. It's a lot of fell into some franchise meant. Almost two million people. On the ballot, this November which is huge and they needed seven hundred thousand petitions to signed, which is like a big undertaking. They had a lot of partners who are helping them out when we started to support them. It was like, well, what can we do? Right? And it's like a text lady guy, techs. Katy Perry got in touch with jase team and really will you open up the concert halls 'cause you, you're, you have concerts before the deadline. Will you open it up and let them gather partitions like at the Bingham and they did right, and they got thousands of petitions in one fell swoop in ways that like you just can't do the grocery store. And that's what like that's that's high. Think about using the visibility as service, right? Like yes, I know these people, they wanna do go work. How can I help them like plug in a way that is meaningful? That's not just like a random, Instagram, post, whatever. But it's like when guys like you guys asked me, she's like, drinking. I go to the table. I'm like, what's your new w. it's your concert and like thank you for shouting out, right? Like thank you for allowing them to enter the space and like your fans now know that you believe in these things. It takes no work for people to sign up just like beautiful and like those are the things that are like really interesting. I don't talk with those as much publicly because like there's no, we got what we need it. Right. So I don't need to go on a tour being an are called essence. Now I do the work. The Harper is in the absence of talking about it. People fill these narratives. It's like -rageous gonna parties and you're like, no, we're like trying to figure out how to plug people in and knowing that like I'm not everybody's best entrance right. Like enter into the work. However you can write and like some of what I can do is actually. Put you in the right direction to go to the person that really will be a better interest for you? Yeah. And like I know that that's a great point because you in the back of the book, thank beyond, say salons, Colin Kaepernick, and having no other information, I assume you're like getting on Friday nights together. So the laundry day, when I got out of jail, she heard alum or like there they were there and like there are a lot of people weren't there. There are a lot of people who didn't think bam, regions important. There are a lot of people who like, you know, when I got arrested and when we all got arrested, it's national news and everybody's Bambridge is so important like they, it wasn't worthy enough to come down. You know, before the cameras, it wasn't in salon, just like I got out like walking the house a lot and she was there. So when I think about the beyond, say, resell a longtime ago, like wait know when we were in the street in Baltimore, and like continues quietly support, protests all across the country. And like you think about the Colin, I remember in Colorado, so I tried to like acknowledge people who like him done, real things, you know. And also with your growing fame, for about words, there is power to be able to like command media attention. And I think about to a month, I'm only only do the knees ings to like, I'm either defending or explaining, you know. So they're like, you know, Baltimore when it was there was property damage and I'm on the news and people like pissed and I'm saying, like, you know, broken windows aren't the same thing as broken spines. Right? Like that's a, I'm like, don't a lot of work to try like craft this narrative in the protests base like helps people understand. Like what we mean when people ask me a new question, I'm getting recently. I don't know why for years later, people like, you know why focus on black people right? Like they took the new various all I was mad, but it's like a gentle version and the reality isn't like the outcomes are so bad for black people and like so disappointed that we fix it for black people. We actually fix it for everybody else like we do in one belt swoop, and it's just helping people like at the language sometimes to be onboard is what I think about, like all of them media things. And I've done like all the news way back in the day, the very price and using ever didn't Pergamon was win. The officers got shot at the Ferguson police department which like you probably don't even remember, but I was there. Then I get on the news in cheap Omar raging against the protest. He's no, they didn't tonight, and I'm like, and I remember like twenty minutes of repair and I'm like, you know, it's his statement to the same type of prejudicial policing that got us in the street in the first place. So like how can he confidently say who shot anybody just happen to go like? But it's just I d that the police can just like determine whatever they want that is like, what we, that's the root of what our problem is. Right. And like being on the news on the show, that's what I'm not on the show. I went shopping with like that's like not. Nobody's ever see me do that because that's pretty basic. You know, Mike wearing the same. They every day pretty chew with. Ferguson? I think everyone's always wondering people at home, like, how do I help? What do I do if you'll help us and they do nothing in your instance, you sought was having gotten her car and drove nine hours and joined the protests. If people are able to should they do that? Is that going to be helpful? Even if like thousands do that? Yeah, thousands did do that. Which was like, what may Ferguson matter? Thousands more helpful. I think mindful that like all the best organizing starts off like small, it's like I like on the car drove no, like I didn't have a plan I didn't. I was just like, you know, the first thing I didn't say losers, make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I made dope peanut butter and jelly sandwich is very good at. I can't cook. So peanut butter, jelly sandwiches like one of the few things that I can make very good every time and Emag. You didn't see that though. You know, people don't people see people hear this podcast. They didn't see me making sandwiches agency me sleeping on an air mattress in Random House. They didn't see those things, but the best organizing starts off with a couple of sitting in a room beyond like, I think we can do this thing, and then we start to do that thing and like that's actually really cool. And so when people look, you do it, so you should actually like figure out whatever you ought to care about the thing. The hardest part when I think about what we all didn't insane. Louis was different in special is that we walked into the risk. We said, we don't know. We don't know everything, but we know my via lot today and it's like, well, we know, and we're gonna walk into that truth every single day and like we did, you know? So you don't know the failed. We planned a lot of things. It didn't didn't really work, but you know the big things that did work and like it was a lot of trial and error. We didn't know what we were doing. We learned quickly, we fail quickly. Sometimes I worry that the way to activism has become sort of like cool, which is not cooling meaningful, that's fine. Is that people forget that it's like a lot of grunt work. You know, it's a lot of like berry non-glamorous stuff as opposed to just like adding tear Instagram, bio and calling. I think probably all like we're gonna shiver four hundred days. So like most of the nights, it was like cold dark and a lot of people outside, but we were still present right people can recount like the ten days or it was like total chaos or the days when we shut down the WalMart, the days we shut down the casino or like that's what people can remember. But it's like the majority of days will like it was like a constant presence. It's like we're going to be out here again and again, and again, and again, I didn't realize that also lasted that long. It's really unfortunate because people like remember the initial protests in Ferguson is like a weekend. They like play back. Wow, that thing happening. It's like so many not proud to say that. I was one of many people like cinistry with the if it wasn't for Keith in the bail fund folks, nobody would've got a jail. It wasn't from alma. Cat feeding people like people in. You know, like there were so many people whose roles over the incredible. My role is to help tell a truth like as public as possible. And with these treatment x. and safe house as you write about those things that you discovered once you've there, you're not. You're not part of network of people ahead of time, right? No, no, I didn't even know. I remember I was at the very first street, medic training and Saint Louis had never heard of St. medic before. I'm like, what is this in? The second was Louis. Really, really bad car accident because policemen like weren't they weren't really saying now streets like just bad, and it's really back Carson. I happened to be right there when the when the cars crash, it was like really bad and like who the street medics. Like I remember that she medics running down like in the mount of the car like Amiens, no way around. I learned really quickly. We all learned really quickly. That's really fascinating. So that's been four years since then for us. Have you seen public conversation change since then? So I think that that's where we've won right then like four years later, the awareness all time high that people are talking about the police mass incarceration. It's cool to talk about him. Reporters are asking like four years ago, reporters weren't like asking police officers, any hard questions. He was just like Sol, whatever the police said they went where there was just like not great. Now the now the press is doing that in a way. That's really incredible. The harp is at the outcomes haven't changed right there like the police killing as many people as they were for years ago. And the question and this part of chapter three in the book is that what we found is that there are common threads to why police it's literally aren't held accountable and it's not like a random prosecutor here there. It's not like a random grand jury. The rules are actually just like against us, and I didn't know until I read your book of that. The rules differ between different police departments and precincts? Yes. You think about California's, a lot of any investigation at officer the last more than a year can never result and discipline regardless of the outcome. That's wild. You think I'm Maryland. There's a law that says it you compound anonymous complete. It's an officer for everything except retali-. That just doesn't make sense. Right. And I just assumed that these laws were uniform across all departments who sets these rules as the mayor's police chiefs. So in there like hamlet states more than twelve states that have laws that are like police officer Bill writes their own Bill writes at the state level, which is wild. In the most of the places that we study are, it's a police union contract. It's the union is like the can often. I was just an awesome, and we worked with the awesome organizers and they were great in Austin. There's a a in the contract is that they anyone, two or three days suspensions automatically re coded as written reprimands later, like I don't like the biggest sham like you don't get. If you get suspended at your job, it's a coda as bench. You know, it's not like just kidding, reprimand to nobody on on the future. That's like a bizarre way to think about the system, but the contracts of the places that predictive police most California just pass some laws. Weekend, those rules about words like that as a solution, right? Like we're governors can do that. Yeah. So the legislature here let it to a big secrecy law. So New York's, I mean, New York is one of the New York, Delaware in California. The three states have these laws that almost guarantee that police officer records will be sealed sealed from everybody seal from other police departments from the public sealed permanently. And now in California, they will be unsealed forty five days, I believe, yeah. So now in California, there's a law that is like peeling back which, but again, what cavalry didn't pass can use to four standard like the more things that can happen that are like commonsense in California where we did analysis of police union donations and policing give almost as much as any other lobbying group here in the City California to a lot of people. So they still a lot of sway more than you would think they would. And you know, people are still really wary of like even criticizing the police like teach. Could you imagine if there was like a rash of teachers during kids downstairs. And schools people be like we'd change the profession when the police do things you're like, people are just like, oh, that's like in the name of safety like, well, that sounds crazy. Did you have you seen utopia? No. Why would you w? I don't know. Seemed bright on that Blix. Yes, no, no. I know what that is though, but no bad boys that pop culture. Another one you've seen you've seen. It's interesting the way that the media like mass media has just inculcated these these notions of policing. So you think about any any movie or any show you've ever seen with internal affairs? Any internal affairs has always the bag. The their people like holding comments. I, they're always bag. You hate them. They're like they're like the cops, nobody trusts like they might that actually sends a message like you you as a bureau like imbibing a message about like holding people count on that. The police actually just so great that the dot of holding them accountable is like crazy facet or even you didn't see Sobia, but Topi a bad boys, embrace what they have in common in a cartoon is that all of them have these scenes and you've seen another movie. You've seen other movies with this where like the police are literally like running through people's neighborhoods, knocking people over shooting in the crowd. They doing all this in the name of. Safety in the name of Justice. They're like, we're going to get the bag. You like the bad guy means that you have to run through that person's front door and like a bus, their house open and they're like a random bystander that actually like is to to have a cost for Justice. Right? But those are like seeded in these like cartoons seated in like all a pop culture and part of our work is to name those things. Like, obviously, the show cops was bad. It's like ES. It's bad. Like show cops, arresting people like that, but it's like more insidious to about what does it mean that every internal affairs department you've ever seen in any movie like they're the bag? Is that actually sends a message? Yeah. I mean, we talk about all the representation for LGBTQ people and how that affects you had it makes perfect sense that police over isn't Haitian and how they're debating. Turtle affairs. Also all of the. Engito be what you've seen a cartoon is is like, she's like somebody says the whole thing. She's running through the miniature, a miniature neighborhood. He's running through a destroy and stepping even cartoons. It's like this idea that like the police are trying to bag. I can do whatever they want your like that is a really wild way to think about Justice. Was there a moment when you realize that what you experience as a black man is not the universal human experience. I don't know if I use those phrases. I think that like I totally understood race and I was like, whoa, 'cause I always grew up in a predominantly black community up until six grade. And then we moved to like a predominantly white community for school. My father moved us and it was like, I remember being in school and like you know the thing about device to all teachers. Remember that kids often have the stories before they have the language, right? They have the experience for the language. When I got to middle school, I like all of a sudden saw we had tracked classes. I don't know if you did you track classes like standard honors, gifted, downton, or whatever. Yeah. So in our school is like the standard class which was the lowest class, all black. It was literally like everybody was in standing and then they were like a couple of us in honors in like almost nobody gifting down today. It was the first time that I like for my own life was like, whoa, something has gone on. Like when I remember going through the process of like being told that those kids weren't smart, right? He was like, well, that's why they're in standard. You're like, no. But then I saw like a white kids. Mom come up and Maine, they're getting gift in town to get like it wasn't. This actually was a matter of who knew how to navigate the system. But like I read about in the book is my father never thought about education system to be navigated. Right. The he didn't think about is like a place you advocate for kids. It was like a place where you learned and like just work and well, white affluent parents said is like the far that kicking AP psych. So that was like my first experience with seeing how classes were distributed and like every single black unit, we were like it was like four of us who weren't. Tanta classes which was like wild. That's fascinating to see it. So broken up to by race with that hierarchy, the AP psych was me intonation. Yeah. It was like really wild to watch. When I asked about how the public Humber stations changing the last four years. I think that I think the tell me I'm wrong. I think the vast majority of white people would not say that they think that they're better than black people, but it's just that with their actions and their money in their votes choosing to participate in white supremacy. You for lack of a words and hold, oh systems of oppression, right? Because that's comfortable. Yeah. I mean, I think that like why people benefit from it. Right. So mostly be like, this is bad. It's another thing to be like, I might lose my stuff, right? So like four years ago probably couldn't have said that I benefit from it. I would just say like, I'm not racist. So like what's the big deal. Yeah. Do you think that what is interesting this moment is that white people are like more organized and more ready than ever before, and that is a good thing organiz how like they're like marching they're like starting in the Senate, like they weren't doing any of that stuff like it scale before it was like people identified as like life. One activists doing this up now. It's like random, Random House. My house like random moms who would never go shut down the street or like the women's March. Right. Like that's is different in this moment. The question is like people still care when the threat isn't so over. There are a lot of people who literally believe the history of injustice began with the Muslim bay and they're like, wow, the country got bad countries back a lot of people with the Muslim man and like, you know, one of the things about Trump is a, he's distributing the pain. So haphazardly that, like all of a sudden people who never have really been threatened by the government or like losing healthcare. All of a sudden people that like historically been protected are like the tech company. Workers are being deported. It's like all of a sudden it's like just way more people are implicated, very overt lead. And like one day that'll end like he won't be the president forever and like, whoa, people still be mobilized in the same way. Like, I don't know. I think that's a fair question to ask. So are you making the connection between these people who are suddenly woken up for lack of better words and between? Let's say like me to black lives matter that all these people are suddenly realizing that like the status quo is not okay in they're reaching across to help each other. I didn't have the common thread is when the protests started in two thousand fourteen what to do is help people see that they could push 'em resist in ways that people told us we couldn't do before, and I think that that creates space for so many other things you think about like the women's March about the parliament's. She think about me to think about all these things that came after like there was already a framework in heuristic to talk about it to describe it into understand. So the I saw the parkland kids on TV, and it was incredible because it was like the media actually now knows how to talk about. They know how to inviting activists into this face, not set it up. They know how to whatever, whereas we were mistreated is like they just able as you know, they didn't know what was going on. Even the people who aren't TV, they didn't really have language, aided, understand how to talk about a March or protest in like now they're languages. Here's I do think about me to ending park landing all of these coming in in the space the the initial partisan Ferguson open. Gotcha. I've you go. But one last question. Are you impressed that we got the whole interview without mentioning your vest? I wear the best for me. Some always excited when people you know. You know, don't make anything. Fantastic. Thanks for being here. And that's our show if you have not yet subscribed the podcast, please do that right now. I also wanna remind you that with the mid terms coming up glad is here to help you Ampere voice. They're making it easier than ever to access the tools you need to vote and to release speak out on the issues that matter. So to learn more and make sure that your voice is heard. Good. Glad dot org, slash amp, your voice. You can also sign up our newsletter at LGBTQ podcasts dot com as a great way to stay to date on Auburn episodes, all of our live shows. So that's LGBTQ podcasts dot com. We are being broadcast from the advocate magazine studio in Los Angeles. The advocate is Lee longest running LGBT news magazine in the country, social, thank you to our old home after best TV, jas, Murdy, and everyone for listening. I'm Jeffrey masters and I'll see you next week.

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9: Terrorism: Part Two

American Hysteria

33:52 min | 1 year ago

9: Terrorism: Part Two

"If you haven't listened to part one on terrorism please listen to it before this episode it gives a very important context in addition you can also check out our luminosity episode Ah You don't have any doubt about it either considered extremists on both the left and the right and really explore what they're actually fighting for as they battle like they always have in our the building matter spread several downtown blocks right as well as the government's familiar reactions to both I had one listener reach out after part one concern that I was making a false equivalency between the far I'm your host Chelsea Lover Smith and this is American hysteria I think there's blame on both sides and I have no doubt about dark American streets lack philo smoke billowing from the Federal Court building downtown debris glass are left and the far right and I hope to clear my feelings on that today so let's take a look at this false equivalency together let's take a look at movements as we explored a partial history of domestic terrorism both from the far right and from the far left we started with the slave revolts and abolitionist action nineteen sixties and early seventies where we took a look at the Black Panther Party an armed group of black people fighting against police brutality and inequality while create season will be exploring are bizarre beliefs unfounded fears and fantastical thinking how they shape our psychology and culture and how much of our past we can find in the president ends of the seventeen hundreds in response to the institution of slavery and then we moved onto the Ku Klux Klan strange beginnings in the late eighteen hundreds as well as they're rebranding in the nineteen twenties due to a smash hit box office favorite birth of a nation that presented the Ku Klux Klan as heroes then we eating free breakfast programs for impoverished kids then we looked at their sometimes allies the weather underground made up of mostly middle and upper class college the come the Mid Nineteen Nineties Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh who we talked about in our luminosity episode planted several bombs beside a federal movements of the Clinton Era McVeigh was partially inspired by a novel called the Turner Diaries a story not unlike birth of a nation uh-huh building killing a hundred and sixty eight people including children in daycare that was inside of one of the blast sites like many of the members of the right wing militia roles alike he even discovers a church where black people have been eating the flesh of whites but instead of venerating terroristic group why didn't we rise up three years ago when they started taking our guns away why didn't we rise up in righteous fury and dragged these arrogant aliens students who bombed federal and state buildings for this episode all use this historical context to explore our modern iterations of the far left and the far notable surge in this right wing terrorism including two foiled assassination attempts storm front the most famous Neo Nazi website saw followed KKK up through desegregation and saw the violence that the far right was willing to commit to prevent black kids from entering white schools and then came the late as presents a kind of dystopia and future in which all white men are disarmed by the US government which has been taken over by people of Color Jewish people queer people and like the Ku Klux Klan the Turner diaries gave readers a sympathetic lone wolf terrorist who helps orchestrate violent overthrow of the US government but this novel points to a much more extreme conclusion than the rebirth of the K. k. k. eight total extermination of all non white people Jewish people queer people explaining the reasons for terrorism would attorney diaries really is a template for action and a call to take action the Turner Diaries was a rocket scientist he was a physicist and he slowly became obsessed with issues of race it focuses a lot on we've also seen an increase in lone wolf violence of radicalized young white men between the ages of seventeen and thirty this last summer time to when exactly the history we've seen here proves unsurprisingly that America was only ever great for those at the top it would be then set on fire by a new kind of presidential candidate one who was ready to make America great again ready to go back in thirty two thousand new users within the first three months after his inauguration doubling the new memberships from the year before from the anger around his Oh you name it and of course their liberal allies when the first black President Barack Obama was elected in two thousand eight America again saw in current antisemitic violence we covered extensively in our luminosity episode eleven people were killed during service at a synagogue in Pittsburgh and it seems that many times during pivotal moments in the civil rights movement those at the top of our racial hierarchy felt a kind of supreme privilege slipping I saw twenty people killed in El Paso inside a packed Walmart by twenty one year old white man who wrote an anti immigrant manifesto attempting to only on this tendency anew mess of mostly young white men began forming an online community no now as the alt-right this new movement the streets and cut their throats my name is Jay Berger I study extremism with a special focus on propaganda the author of the Turner Diaries William Pierce the wild about domestic terrorism these political extremists who commit violence are instead indicted on hate crimes and murder sometimes also charged with things like using weapons him despite all of this he was not labeled a terrorist by the Department of Justice this is because there are no official laws on the books of a kind of America reversed in the last few years we've seen several far right wing attacks that seem to have links to this new alright other young radicalized white supremacists murdered nine black people gathered together in two thousand fifteen yelling into the Charleston South Carolina Church a familiar you're white supremacist refrain we've heard since the days of slavery quote I have to do it you rape our women and you're taking over our country and you have to we had the Boston bombing that killed five and the targeting of Queer people at the pulse nightclub shooting that killed fifty three left wing violence has of mass destruction we also continue to see iterations of radical Islamic terrorism and still feel the echoes of the three thousand lost in the nine eleven attacks bull as well as police racial profiling poverty and other forms of inequality after the acquittal of the white officer who shot and killed teenager Michael Way a kind of equality that terrifies that creates fevered conspiracy theories that lasts to this day of a kind of power structure doc identity extremists like Intel pro before it the FBI's domestic counterterrorism work has largely focused on this group to Neo Nazi and white supremacist ideologies that have been around since the beginning of America though different groups within the alright do gather at rallies circulating on Social Media after twenty twelve death of unarmed black teenager trayvon Martin at the hands of self-appointed community watchman George Zimmerman hat an apparent invasion of illegal immigrants the same language used by trump not long before the shooting the president didn't really take the time to condemn whites around in Ferguson Missouri riots burned on the news as we saw looting and destruction of property in response to the reasons behind these riots. The department also occurred with Republican members of Congress targeted at a baseball game by anti-trump Pro Bernie radical who shot and injured six people and the movement continued to grow as the news reported on black deaths at the hands of white police officers Eric Garner Freddie Gray for Landreau cat the racial identity yes but it's not coming to me at this moment coming to the black lives matter hashtag given the white supremacy as well documented well researched movements such as the Neo Nazis the Ku Klux Klan etc are they white identity extremists on I didn't I steel and other unarmed black youth and adults the black lives matter movement like the Black Panther Party before them seeks to address police killings of black people they were whites and the DOJ also stated that they found more evidence of police discrimination despite this evidence that black lives matter has legitimate grievances Oh in a deeply heartbreaking statement this say man told authorities that he quote almost didn't go through with it because they were so nice to all that question please again is there a term or a report on white identity extremists you mentioned you familiar with black people who identified in the FBI continuously investigates black lives matter referring to them as black in part one of this two part series looks clan talk about false equivalency by comparing the mission statements of the historical KKK in the Black Panthers we can see eaten once put it quote if the aggressor strikes I then hill attack more after this topic and not just the basics you get to truly master it you learn from unique perspectives from engaging experts and there's unlimited access to Promessi but he did condemn the glorification of violence in our culture the tree of life shooting targeted Jewish people as part of a rise in ace the last point of the Black Panthers ten point mission statement for Black Americans said simply quote we want land bread housing occasion clothing Justice in peace the Black Panthers chose their name because wild panthers never strike first but as co founder Hugh dozens of these lectures on topics like great mythologies of the World Cultural Traditions travel photography or Mediterranean cooking right now I'm recommend of justice looked into statistics in the Ferguson Police Department and found that police were quote twice as likely to arrest African Americans during traffic stops than if you listen to our show you've heard me mused about the great courses plus the streaming video and audio service that gives you the freedom to learn about virtually any the labs a pretty clear difference in their movements the clans goal was to quote maintain forever the god-given supremacy of the white my exclusive url so sign up now at the great courses plus dot com slash ah so if you want access to unlimited knowledge known White Supremacist Richard Spencer was the celebrity guest star of the night the right rally that took place in Charlottesville Virginia in twenty seventeen is justified terror quote it was an open country for Europeans who confronted people who are radically different than they were and that confrontation I'll be honest joining the chorus your deceptive mind a scientific guide to critical thinking skills if you listen to our show I know you're probably fascinated with the human brain and how over to the great courses plus dot com slash A. H. I cannot recommend it enough and now back to the show it was quickly labeled a terrorist organization by Bill O'Reilly and Fox News who would also label the movement asked quote garbage and extreme group like the Ku goal of bringing together those on the far right for further political influence Spencer actually called attention to America's long reign of what he decided owed helps explain how conspiracy theories emboldened violent actions from certain individuals thanks and now here's part two of terrorism means we got to define what this continent means America at the end of the day belongs to White Men Spencer we construct our own sense of reality how we process information taken misinformation and then how we can learn to be better and stronger critical thinkers it was notoriously punched in the face by an ANTIFA member for those who don't know Antifa is a shortened version of anti-fascist an iteration I think that's something we can all support for a limited time only they're offering my listeners an entire month for free but to start your free month you need to sign up today using of the alright known as the proud boys and those protesting their rally antifa quote major consideration is being given to naming Antifa an organization of terror it's true that they were fights coming from both the left and the right and I saw ANTIFA breaking windows of the proud boys bus but trump grand wizard David Duke speaking of his support for trump during the two thousand sixteen election telling his fans that voting for anyone besides trump quote is really treason tens of this particular group have been active since at least the late nineteen eighties originally hanging out in the skinhead punk scene actively working to remove white supremacists from the has yet to formerly declare right wing extremists as terrorists to though he has offered lukewarm condemnation of some of their actions perhaps the president trump tweeted during a recent confrontation in Portland between the offshoots shows and to keep them from recruiting new members we go where they go was the motto of Early Antifa vowing to confront and drive out far right extreme into an all out brawl that saw twenty five people arrested out nests back in two thousand and two the group infiltrated and broke up a speech by a member of a white supremacist organization called the World Church of the Creator lead drawing attention to far right terrorism trump has a lot to lose we certainly know that at times trump has had the full support of organizations like the K. k. k. with the former was terrible was bloody and violent but we conquered this continent and whether it's nice to say that or not we won and we got to define what American terrorism creating an outright travel ban of Muslim countries considered to be a terrorist threat drawing attention to terrorists who slipped through our southern border into your heritage as we see white supremacist violence unfold on the news trump continues to ramp up rhetoric and policy around the threat of Islamic you God knows what to these good white patriots after of course they take all their guns these bizarre alright memes a full room of terrors ghosts of dark and cruel dream that still haunt our riotous streets I want to return for a second you'll similar to the odd fantasy world the K. k. k. created so that they could be bigger than themselves ogres dragons wizards and nighthawks just as Richard Spencer was clocked in the face he was musing about pepe the frog remember him it or just turning into a frog version of trump the cartoonist behind the original pepe cartoon however condemn the alright and then officially killed his beloved the last third was split between Islamic extremism and far left violence but as we often note on American hysteria it's important to put these attacks into context white power and now the alright certainly wants to be seen as the organizer of the recent Portland Proud Way Rally stated bluntly quote we wanted destruction and death is undivided attention in the case of the weather underground and the Black Panthers they wanted to be seen taking action against frog so that he could not be used for the rights agenda in the age of the infinitude of this faceless Internet different corners of it or awash with test for occupy Charlottesville a branch of the occupy Wall Street movement which despite its largely peaceful nature was still investigated by the US government as a potential of young white men who spent much of their time in Echo Chamber message boards where they cultivate hate for people they perceive to have more social capital than them where they complained cascade of nerd ish propaganda memes that a spouse millions of racist antisemitic sexist antiquated sentiments to a new generation keep us from feeling some of that terror the chance of being killed by any kind of terrorist foreign or domestic ranges from one and thirty three million to one the long tradition of masculine supremacy as well as infringing apparently on their free speech and of course the social justice warriors who are rising to take over the government and was a sickening and bizarre mean that took many forms with this cartoon frog often adorned with a make America great again hat or a Nazi uniform national attention and we got it mission success it's become kind of simple slim people those who also have to bear the reality of the rise in hate crimes since this administration took office what terrorism wants more than violently about the pretty women who won't have sex with them the feminine season please excuse my language here but I think it's important to say it the fags the dykes and the trannies who are ruining in three hundred and thirty million but those numbers don't mean anything to those who are directly affected which most often are black people and other people of color along with Jewish and must it's less than its far-right opponents the southern poverty law center found that almost two-thirds of terrorist acts in two thousand seventeen. We're tied to a far-right agenda you'll terrorist threat my friends and I used to spend so much time in the same park that Neo Nazis gathered in that horrible day not only that I see to unite the right rally that happened in Charlottesville Virginia the town where I went to Grad School from twenty eleven to twenty thirteen I was once arrested during a pro the KKK wanted to be seen to threatening the rise of black civil rights to make a statement in favor of the continued rain of undisturbed coupon Charlottesville this man was literally run out of our camp by a group of occupiers for his inappropriate and abusive language toward women I heard he then tried acted and I imagine he found some kind of sympathy within the alt-right and he found an opportunity to stay staunchly himself to avoid the difficult in really used to know the man who organized the unite the right rally in Charlottesville though I doubt he would remember me he frequented our camp and considered himself part of it enter the local poetry scene and again due to his behavior was not welcomed with open arms I don't know what happened to him after that but I imagine he felt digest flip he went to an extreme he gathered his fellow far right-wingers together to fight against this apparent replacement of the white race this final work of examining white privilege toxic masculinity four and tasks suddenly demanded by a rising in vocal counterculture ready to battle off and on civil war a war based entirely on pro slavery ideals these protesters were fervently protecting this monument and trump thought that was great mine the long term and institutionalized racism sexism homophobia and other forms of injustice this man flipped to the right but not only did he charge to stop black people from becoming free we know how that rally ended and I'll never forget how my phone buzzed over and over you're on white men a fevered nightmare of political correctness and identity politics they just couldn't wake up from unite the right said that they were there in the park he wondered where this political correctness would stop he didn't seem to mind that the sentiment proudly displayed in the dead center of a Happy Park was a man that led the racists state and an illegal brutal US led war they wanted to let the oppressors no that they weren't going to peacefully accept the status quo protests the removal of a confederate monument of Robert e Lee an iron statue that once stared down at me and my friends a monument to the loss 'cause of the recalled out quote extremists on both sides will black kids were terrorized by white adults while trying to go to school fi extremists is birth of a nation just like the novel the Turner Diaries just like the imagined New York conspiracy of seventeen forty one white nationalist back in the other group so you can say what you want but that's the way it is said there was hatred violence Muslims have long sought out of victim narrative in order to justify their violence because what if one day their own class might experience the kind of there's this blaming of both sides is nothing new in fact it was a familiar refrain throughout the violence surrounding desegregation President Dwight D Eisenhower with text messages before the news reached the Internet friends were telling me about what happened that a neo Nazi driven his car into a crowd of people and this is what we got you had a group on one side and you had a group and the other and they came at each other with clubs and it was vicious and it was horrible and it was board inspired men who commit the mass murderers we've been seeing in the news for the last several years the activists of black lives matter feel pain that others have been experiencing since the beginning of America it seems that the alright and all white supremacist organizations before them experience a kind aimed both sides for the death of heather higher who was killed in Charlottesville when a young white supremacist drove his car into a crowd of counter protester I was stunned into thinking it had to be a mistake but it wasn't soon we were waiting for a presidential response as we always do during times of tragedy our clarified that he meant the k. k. k. and the N. double ACP talk about false equivalency just like the film there's blame yes I think there's blame on both sides you started this Alto Charles to protest you of deep terror at the potential loss of this racial hierarchy psychologists who study extremist movements have found the domestic terrorists feel angry dates and many protesters still felt racism and sexism and homophobia even among those who claim to be allies those who would call for unity with that the people in that group but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides trump famously stated that the white race was under attack so did Richard Spencer so did the KKK Soda Timothy McVeigh and Soda these extremist Young White Messy prevented their most basic civil rights and of course we still experience the harsh echoes of the past from the slave catchers of the deep south all the way up through the Department of Justice investigation into the Ferguson Police Department power privilege and oppression are passed down through generations franchised to victims of not only along campaign of targeted white supremacist violence and murder but also state-sanctioned laws that leaders were concerned just like Fred Hampton was before them that the government and police response would disproportionately affect the black activists and their communities only ever disturbed by the activist movements whether violent or not that envision a new kind of America as we've seen Assad as it is the government has always favored the far right has always been lenient on white supremacy and disproportionately tough on those who desire to tear it down out doing the hard work of what unity really means and just like the relationship between the weather underground and the Black Panthers Antifa a largely white movement lack leaders of slave revolts the black panthers and now black lives matter as well as communities of Color in general that feel the daily horrible thing to watch but there is another side they always a group on this side you can call them the left you you've just called him the left that came violently right burning chaos that I've tried my best took Organiz here but at the same time it is as necessary for me fighting since the beginnings to ruthlessly uphold the supremacy of the white race in America those who have inherited this white privilege a reality that many white people throughout a black lives matter organizer named Nino Brown told NBC News that quote although we don't agree with Antigua's tactics and strategy and adventurism we brutal truth of it all one of the main reasons that occupy Wall Street fell apart was that it represented a microcosm of the problems of the united came to be as vigorous in condemning the conditions which calls persons to feel that they must but I also think it's important to point out that the lower classes of the US which includes poor white people have been continuously disenfranchised by art society are more concerned about tranquillity in the status quo nine about justice equality and humanity and so on Kim as vigorously as we condemn Ryan's in the final analysis a riot is the language of the unheard hello postpones justice we stand into position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over you did and disenfranchised and believe that current political involvement does not give them the power to effect the change they want to the man who began unite the right breakfast program the People's kitchen collective offers their own free breakfast program that serves hundreds of people free hot nutritious and delicious breakfast in Oakland if you're able and would like to support this nonprofit police had to people's kitchen collective dot com we'll also put a link to their website in our show notes engage in those activities as it is for me to condemn riots I think America must see over again social justice and progress on the absolute guarantee of riot prevention actual agency we have over our own thoughts and I'll even share my personal experience with a modern self help American aides to what we've been talking about this week it's the people's kitchen collective out of Oakland California an organization inspired by the Black Panthers free it's not those seeking to balance the scales of Justice and sustenance in safety and the pursuit of happiness that are the enemy but far right extremists have been hysteria next time on the show it's our season finale can you believe it we're gonNA cover mind control and brainwash as well as how much Ed is doing good near we all follow our hearts this week always to fight with love and righteous anger for the world roads I feel like making this episode nearly destroyed me so thanks for sticking with me through this journey I hope in some small way in helped eliminate history have sloppily understood as those of the left now do as the weather underground and John Brown before them call out all those years ago but it was the the president and gave some insight into where this nation could go for better or worse until next time I really do hope that what is it that America has failed to hear it has failed to hear the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years hosted by Riley Smith and recorded on location at Dunsmore studios in Seattle especial thanks again to Miranda Ziglar for all of her help on both of these episodes and I wanNA start a new tradition at American hysteria of taking actions and so for each episode I want to highlight a nonprofit that relies hi it's do not develop out of certain conditions continued to exist in our society which must be hysteria is written produced and hosted by me Chelsea Wherever Smith assistant produced by Derek Smith produced an edited by clear Comma Studios with researches expect their willingness to put their bodies on the line to fight fascists Martin Luther King Jr. is the black activist most darling to white America the hidden among the apparent invasion of illegal immigrants far left violence has dragged notably behind since the nineteen seventies accounting firm it's failed to here with the promises of freedom and justice have not been met fail to hear that large segments of have a great feat and if you can please donate to the People's kitchen collect an organization that no matter what you believe I think we can all agree I to him aside that sympathized with the riots and outbursts of violence against white supremacy. I'll leave it to Martin Luther King to sum up this and black lives matter don't always see eye to eye oftentimes went antifa showed up to black lives matter rallies. They escalated the conflict and black for his non-violent approach to the battle for civil rights but Martin Luther was not just this simple peaceful minister he had another cheuse economy by a government. That's always favored the rich but that's a problem to address with the government itself and with Corporate America the Way

Congress Martin Luther King baseball Martin Luther twenty one year three months three years one day
The Sunday Read: 'The Condition of Black Life Is One of Mourning

The Daily

25:24 min | 6 months ago

The Sunday Read: 'The Condition of Black Life Is One of Mourning

"Hello. My name is Claudia rankine poet essays. Playwright! At Yale University. Five years ago on June twenty thirteen I, wrote this piece in response to the slaughter of nine African Americans. In a church in Charleston South Carolina. Church. Church. And we're back here today because of the killing of Judge Floyd. In the time in that stand between fifteen and now. We have had a kind of consistent repetition of police brutality against by people. We see miss again and again and get everything back to Rodney King and come forward and go beyond that to Amatil and come forward and go beyond that. Frederick Douglass in forward so. Nothing has changed in that sense. But what has changed is the response to the killings. What's incredible? Is that in five years? We have gotten to a place lower. The killings are still happening. But for the first time we had. Crowds of people on the streets. The morning, thinking about it, I think it's the work of grassroots, organizations like black lives matter surge showing up for racial justice. I think he loves five years. Those organizations have been mobilizing people of every race bill. Group age everything. And so we've seen a national movement of protests that cannot be segregated by race, and you know American citizens are calling out for. A new way of thinking about what it means to be a citizen of these United States. And that's you know that's what we have been calling for a kind of collective we. A! So here's my piece. The condition of black life is one morning. Read by Jimmy Edwards. A. Friend recently told me that when she gave birth to her son before naming him before even nursing him her I thought was I have to get him out of this country? We both laughed. Perhaps are black humor had to do with understanding that getting out was neither an option, nor the real desire. This is it. Our life. Here, we work hold citizenship pensions has insurance, family, friends and on and on. She couldn't. She didn't leave. Years after his birth whenever her son steps out of their home, her status as the mother of a living human being remains as precarious as ever. Added to the national fears of every parent facing the randomness of life is this other knowledge of the ways in which institutional racism works in our country. Our was the laughter of Boehner Ability. Fear recognition and an absurd stuck nece. I asked another friend, but it's like being the mother of a Black Sun. The condition of black life is one of morning. She said bluntly. For. Morning lived in real time inside her and her sons reality. At any moment, she might lose her reason for living. The white liberal imagination likes to feel temporarily bad about black suffering. There really is no mode of empathy that can replicate the daily strain of knowing. That has a black person. You can be killed for simply being black. No hands in your pockets, no playing music, no sudden movements, no driving your car, no walking at night, no walking in the day no turning onto this street now entering this building, no standing your ground, no standing here. No standing there, not talking back. Playing with toy guns, no living while black. Eleven days after I was born on September Fifteenth Nineteen Sixty three. Four black girls were killed in the bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in Birmingham Alabama. Now fifty two years later, six black women and three black men have been shot to death while at a Bible Study Meeting at the historic Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. In Charleston South Carolina. They were killed by a homegrown terrorist self identified as a white supremacist who might also be a disturbed young man as various news outlets have described him. It has been reported that a black woman and her five year old granddaughter survived the shooting by playing dead. They are two of the three survivors of the attack. The white family of the suspect says the for them. This is a difficult time. This is indisputable. For African American families, this living in a state of mourning and fear remains commonplace. The spectacle of the shooting suggests and then out of time as if the killing of black people with white supremacist justification interrupts. than regular television programming. But. Dylan's storm roof did not create himself from nothing. He has grown up with the rhetoric and orientation of racism. He has seen white men Mike, Benjamin F Haskell Thomas Gleeson and Michael Jake's plead guilty to or be convicted of burning Macedonian Church of God in Christ in Springfield Massachusetts just hours after President Obama was elected. Every racist statement he has made he could have heard all his life. He along with the rest of us has been living with slain black bodies. We live in a country where Americans assimilate corpses in their daily comings and goings. Dead blacks are part of normal life here. Dying and Schiphol's tossed into the Atlantic hanging from trees beaten shot in churches gunned down by the police or housed in prisons. Historically there's no quotidian without the enslaved, chained or dead black body to gaze upon or to hear about or to position itself against. When blacks become overwhelmed by our cultures, disorder and protests, ultimately to our own detriment, because protests gives the police justification to militarize. Ferguson. The wrongheaded question that is asked is. What kind of savage is are we? Rather than what kind of country do we live in? Nineteen fifty, five, when Emmett, till's mutilated and bloated body was recovered from the Tallahassee River and place for burial, and a nail shut pine box his mother, Mamie till moberly demanded his body transported from Mississippi where it till had been visiting relatives to his home in Chicago. Once. The Chicago funeral home received the body. She made a decision that will create a new pathway for how to think about a lynched body. She, requested an open coffin. And allowed photographs to be taken and published her dead son's disfigured body. Refusal to keep private grief private allowed a body that meant nothing to the criminal justice system to stand as evidence. By placing both herself, and her son's corpse positions of refusal, relative to the etiquette of grief, she decided defied with the tradition of lynched figure left out in public view as a warning to the black community. Thereby using the lynching tradition against itself. The spectacle of the black body in her hands publicized the injustice mapped onto her son's corpse. Let the people see what I see she said adding. I believe that the whole United States is morning with me. It's very unlikely that her belief. A national mourning was fully realized, but her desire to make morning into our day to day. World was a new kind of logic. In refusing to look away from the flesh of our domestic murders, by insisting look with her upon the dead, she reframed morning as a method of acknowledgement that helped energize the civil rights movement in the nineteen fifties and sixties. The decision not to release photos of the crime scene in Charleston. Perhaps out of deference to the families of the dead doesn't forestall our morning. But in doing so the bodies that demonstrate altuve tragically black skin is not a weapon as one protest poster read last year are turned into an abstraction. It's one thing to imagine nine black bodies bleeding out on a church floor, and another thing to see it. The lack of visual evidence remains in contrast to what we saw in Ferguson, where the police in their refusal to move, Michael Brown's body, perhaps unknowingly continued were till's mother left off. After Brown was shot six times twice in the head, his body was left face down in the street by the police officers. Whatever their reasoning by not moving Brown's corpse for four hours after his shooting, the police made mourning his death part of what it meant to take in the details of his story. No one could consider the facts of Michael Brown's interaction with the Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson without also thinking of the bullet, riddled body bleeding on the asphalt. It would be a mistake to presume that everyone who saw the image mourned Brown. But once exposed to it. A person had to decide whether his dead black body mattered enough to be mourned. Another option of course is that it becomes a spectacle for white pornography, the dead body as an object that satisfies in illicit desire. Perhaps this is where Dylan storm roof stepped in. Black lives matter. The movement founded by the Activists Alicia Garza. Patrisse cullors an Opel Medi. Began with the premise that the incommensurable experiences of systemic racism creates an unequal playing field. The American imagination has never been able to fully recover from its. White Supremacist Beginnings. Consequently our laws and attitudes have been straining against the devaluation of the black body. Despite good intentions, the associations of blackness with inarticulate beastial criminality persist beneath the appearance of white civility. This assumption both frames and determines our individual interactions and experiences as citizens. The American tendency to normalize situations by centralizing whiteness was consciously or unconsciously demonstrated again when certain whites the president of Smith College sought to alter the language of black lives matter to all lives matter. What on its surface was intended to be interpreted as a humanist move. Aren't we all just people here? Didn't take into account a system in newer to black corpses public spaces. When the judge in the Charleston Bond hearing for Dylan storm roof, called for supporters, Ruth's family, it was also a subtle shift away from valuing the black body in our time of deep despair. Anti Black. Racism is in the culture. It's in our laws. In our advertisements. In our friendships in our segregated cities. In our schools. In our Congress in our scientific experiments in our language on the Internet. In our bodies, no matter our race. In our communities, and perhaps most devastatingly in our justice system, the unarmed slain black bodies in spaces turn grief into our everyday feeling. That something is wrong everywhere. All the time. Even, if locally things appear normal. Having coffee, walking the dog, reading the paper, taking the elevator to the office, dropping the kids off at school. Office, good life is surrounded by the ambient feeling that at any given moment, a black person is being killed in the street or in his home by the armed hatred of a fellow American. The black lives matter movement can be read as an attempt to keep morning and open dynamic in our culture because black lives. A state of precariousness. Morning then bears both of vulnerability inherent in black lies. In the instability regarding a future for those lives. Like earlier, black power movements that tried to fight or segregate for self-preservation. Black Lives Matter Aligns with the dad. Continues the morning. Emma refuses the forgetting in front of all of us. If the Reverend Martin, Luther King Junior's civil rights. Movement may demands that altered the course of American lives and backed up those demands with the willingness to give up your life and service of your civil rights. With black lives matter the more internalized change is being asked for. Recognition. How pork is giving one million dollars in talent grants to businesses working to counter the ongoing impacts of copen nineteen as the world's largest network of remote professionals, they're connecting existing teams with remote experts and tech, creative and operations in an effort to help save lives and rebuild the economy to learn more. Go to up work, dot com slash work together. The truth as I. See it is that if black men and women black boys and girls mattered? If we were seen as living, we would not be dying simply because I don't like us. Are Deaths inside a system of racism existed before we were born. The legacy of black bodies, property and subsequently three-fifths human continues to pollute the white imagination. To. Inhabit our citizenry fully. We have to not only understand this, but also grasp it. In the words of playwright. Lorraine Hands Berry. The problem is we have to find some way with these dialogues to show and to encourage the white liberal to stop being a liberal and become an American radical. And as my friend, the critic and poet Fred Moten has written. I believe in the world and want to be in it. I want to be in it all the way to the end of it because I believe in another world and I want to be in that. This other world that world. ONE WHERE BLACK LIVING MATTERS! But. We can't get there without fully recognizing what is here. Dylan Storm Roofs unmediated hatred of black people. Black lives matter citizens videotaping the killings of blacks. The Ferguson Police Department leaving Brown's body in the street. All these actions support Mamie till Mobley's believe that we need to see or hear the truth. We need the truth of how the bodies died to interrupt the course of normal life. But of keeping the dead at the forefront of our consciousness is crucial for our body politic. WHAT THE FAMILIES OF THE DEAD! How must it feel to a family member? For the deceased to be more important as evidence than as an individual to be buried and laid to rest. Michael Brown's mother Lesley. McFadden was kept away from her son's body because it was evidence. She was denied the rights of a mother, a sad fact reminiscent of pre-civil war times when as a slave she would have had no legal claim to her offspring. McFadden learned of her new identity as a mother of a dead son from bystanders. There were some girls down. There had recorded the whole thing she told reporters. One girl she said me a picture on her phone, she said. Isn't that your son? I just bawled even harder. Just to see that, my son lying there lifeless for no apparent reason. Circling the perimeter around her son's body, mixed tried to disperse the crowd. All I want them to do is pick up my baby. mrpatten unlike Mamie till mobely seemed to have little desire to expose her son's corpse to the media. Her son was not an orphan body for everyone to look upon. She wanted him covered and removed from sight. He belonged to her her baby. After Brown's corpse was finally taken away two weeks passed before his family was able to see him. This loss of Control and authority might explain why. Is Death expanding was supposedly in the precarious position of accosting vendors, selling t shirts that demanded justice for Michael Brown that used her son's name. Not only were the procedures around her son's corpse out of her hands, his name had been commoditised and assimilated into our mos- of capitalism. Some expands neighbors in Ferguson, also wanted to create distance between themselves and the public life of Brown's death. They did not need a constant reminder of the ways. Black bodies don't matter to law enforcement officers in their neighborhood. By the request of the community, the original makeshift memorial, but flowers pictures, notes and teddybears was finally removed by Brown's father. On what would have been his birthday replaced by an official plaque installed on the sidewalk next to wear brown died. The permanent reminder can be engaged or step Dover depending on pedestrians desires. In order to be away from the site of the murder of her son. Tamir Rice. Moved Out of her Cleveland home and into a homeless shelter. Her family eventually relocated her. The, whole world has seen the same video like I've seen. She said about Tamir being shot by a police officer. The video, which was played and replayed in the media documented the two seconds at the police to arrive and shoot. The two seconds that marked the end of her son's life. And that became a document to be examined by one. It's possible. This shared scrutiny explains why. The police held his twelve year old body for six months after his death. Everyone could see what the police would have to explain away. The justice system wasn't able to do it. And a judge found probable cause to charge the officer who shot rice with murder. Meanwhile for Somalia rice, her unburied son's memory meter neighborhood unbearable. Regardless of the wishes of these mothers, mothers of men Mike Brown John Crawford the third or Eric Garner. And also mothers of women and Girls Michael Key avoid and I honest. Stanley Jones, each of whom was killed by the police. Their children's deaths. Will remain within the public discourse. For those who believe the same behavior that got them killed, it exhibited by a white man or boy would not have ended his life, the subsequent failure to indict or convict the police officers involved in these various cases requires that public mourning continue and remained present indefinitely. I want to see a cop. Shoot a white unarmed teenager in the back. Tony Morrison said in April. She went on to say I want to see a white man convicted for raping a black woman. Then when you ask me. Is it over? I will say yes. Morrison right to suggest that this action would signal change. But. The real change needs to be a rerouting of interior belief. It's an individual challenge that needs to happen before any action by political justice system would signify shoe societal change. The Charleston murders alerted us to the reality that assists them so steeped in anti black racism means that on any given day it can be open season on any black person, old or young man, woman or child. There exists no equivalent reality for White Americans. The confederate battle flag continues to fly at South Carolina State House as a reminder of a history marked by lynched black bodies. We can distance ourselves from this back until the next horrific killing. But we won't be able to outrun it. Histories Authority over us is not broken by maintaining silence about its continued effects. A sustained state of national mourning for black lives as called for in order to point to the undeniable -bility of their evaluation. The hope is that recognition will break a momentum that laws haven't altered. Suzy Jackson. Cher Rhonda Coleman Single -Ten. Detained Middleton Dr. Ethel Lee Lance. The Reverend Daniel Lease Simmons senior. The Reverend Clemente See, Pinkney. Cynthia? To the Sanders and Myra Thomson. Were murdered because they were black. It's extraordinary help. Ordinary or Greece sits inside this backed. One friend said. I am so afraid every day. Her son's childhood feels impossible because he will have to be. Has To be so much more careful. Our morning this morning is in time with our lives. There's no life outside of our reality here. Is this something that can be seen in known by parents of white children. This is the question that nags me. National Mourning has advocated by black lives. Matter is a motive, intervention and interruption that might itself be assimilated into the category of public annoyance. This all together possible. But also possible is the recognition that it's a lack of feeling for another. That is our problem. Grief Than for these deceased others might align some of us for the first time. With the Living This was recorded by autumn. Autumn is an APP you can download to listen to lots of audio stories from publishers such as the. New York Times. Between tour cancellations lost creative gigs and shrinking ad revenue. The covid nineteen crisis is making it clear that the system supporting creative people is broken. On offers a better way we help. Creators make up lost revenue and build a more sustainable income source, but offering a monthly membership to their fans intern fans get access to exclusive community premium contents and the chance to become active participants in the work. They love Checkout Patriots Dot Com now and helped change the way art is valued.

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Into an American Uprising: Keith Ellison on Prosecuting George Floyds Death

Into America

24:48 min | 6 months ago

Into an American Uprising: Keith Ellison on Prosecuting George Floyds Death

"The. Law. Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of more than one hundred forty cities over the weekend through Sunday night. Despite city impose curfews, and in some places patrols of the National Guard. The mass public protests against racism and police brutality were set off by the suspected murder of George Floyd. Floyd an unarmed black man, died in police custody on the streets of Minneapolis last week. Video of his death, his neck pinned to the ground under the knee of a white police officer up ended the nation. I can't breathe Floyd told officers. I'm mainly. This is into America. And today we go to the epicenter of this moment. Minneapolis, Minnesota. When Sunday night, Minnesota Governor Tim Walls Depp State Attorney General Keith Ellison to take the lead in the floyd case with the help of the Hippie County District Attorney's office. Ellison was elected in two thousand, eighteen representing. Minnesota's fifth Congressional district for. Twelve years in Congress. He's the first African American to be elected. To. Statewide office in Minnesota. I had a chance to talk with them earlier today. So Keith I thank you so very much for joining us really appreciate especially with everything going on. We know you're busy lot to be done and I. Know You're really busy to thank you. So the George, fluid case had been in the hands of the Hennepin county attorney Mike Freeman, but now that the case is in your hands. What changes at all? Well, it gives us a state wide perspective. It gives us greater resources to draw on. Let me tell you in a big county. Attorney's office will be working with us. We will be working with them. They had the only county in our state who has successfully prosecuted a police officer for murder. Air Bore. You know we're not gonNA liebeck expertise to that experience on the sideline. We're GONNA use it. We're GONNA work with them right a partner with them, I will be the lead prosecutor in the case, but we will absolutely see their presence in this better and we we need to, we should. So if they have that expertise in that history, why was the decision made to take it out of their hands and give you the leaving? Because we needed to draw on statewide resources, we needed to do that. 'cause it's a statewide matter by the way I mean. It's in in a PA- counting, but there's every county in the state of Minnesota has impacted by what's going on and. And, so you know that's kind of how how it is I can tell you that our office as a tremendous amount of prosecutorial experience as well. You know we do these kind of cases every day in all the time we have a division doesn't so we're well positioned to do it, but we are going to use every resource available to us to achieve justice for George Lloyd. So there's been a lot of pressure mounting from the family and activists and Minnesota across the country to upgrade the charges against officer Derek Shelvin. Friday he was arrested and charged with third murder and manslaughter in the death of George Floyd, but is that on the table? What I can tell you is that we are going to take a fresh look at the evidence and all the law we're going to charge a higher level of accountability that we can. That can be sustained by those facts and the law, and so you is it on the table. The answer to that question is yes. It is on the table. We're doing that fast doing that literally now and so I. Don't want to give you a precise time. Because one thing is for sure the second you set a precise time or a precise plan. Napkins and now you gotta just, but we're. We're moving as expeditiously as again. As you weigh the evidence and think about whether those charges should be upgraded. What role does the idea of actually trying to win this case play in your mind? Some people have made concerns about. If you overcharge then you've risk actually winning court. Is that an issue at all were? That's a total issue. That's a critical issue, but for me as the person who is the. Has Prosecutorial Authority I gotTA, look at this thing and a very coldblooded sober way. I gotta ask myself. What can we prove? What facts do we have? What are the charges available to sustain that and let me just say Tremaine? I am committed to win in this case. That's what it's about from the I. would never charge anyone, or nor would it be part of a prosecution unless I believe the person was guilty and they need to be accountable. So that's my responsibility as a prosecutor. But I can also say that it is not wise to overcharge a case because at first of all, I think it's kind of unethical, but I also think it's not right to charge case, either I mean we've gotta look what fits and what makes sense and I can assure folks bad I got this case last night at we have been pursuing justice every moment since then, but we're not ready to make an announcement as to what an amended complaint is going to look like a nor have where we're not. Not Ready to make an announcement about any additional persons that we may need to bring to justice, but with that those factors are cooking. Right this moment that was actually going to be my next question. In terms of accountability for officers involved in the death of George Floyd have been fired. Show Vin is already facing murder charges. There are three other officers out there. How much consideration is going into actually possibly bring charges against him, and what's the bar for their involvement to be able to charge them so? You know like I said. Everything's on the table. We're taking a fresh look at this. Tremaine I really cannot ethically start just discussing the evidence like that, but I will say theoretically theoretically, not this case. That's the -SARILY There are statutes. Minnesota that say that if you aid in the bed and assist. The Commission of a crime. Then then you're on the crime, just like the person who was the principal act. There's also statutes did say that if you're in the duty of with authority and you have to, you have to render aid, and if you don't you know, you could be held accountable for that. There are various ways to hold people accountable, who may not be as culpable as the main actor but acilitator. Crime to. So those things are out there and we're looking at all those things, but I think it's also important for people to just think about the history here. What happened in the freight grade case? Said those guys are clearly guilty, nobody was ever L. Accountable. You may remember the Rodney King case you read about it. You know about the first trial in Simi, Valley California, they walk deep map. Fifty seven blows and seventy two people stood around doing nothing. They walked I. Mean if you look at the Walter Scott, case, how in the World Beg I not get convicted. That was a hung jury. You look at the Eric Garner case. That was a no bill of indictment. This case can be one and I'm telling you that every with every cell in my body. We're GONNA do everything. We can to make sure that this case is one, but I also want to make sure everybody understands. This isn't a walk in the park. And yes, the video shows what it shows. It's disturbing alarming. It's outrageous, but. You got defense attorneys who are very good and well compensated and well resource who are trying to break the chain of prosecution. Every single link. They're working hard. So I think it's important to understand that the people who are at the march that jury will not be made up of. Those people! I mean what good defense attorney is not going to strike the right. It will be made up of people buying large. Who pressed the lease as an institution? And who it's not easy for them to just assume. That a police officer with deliberately commit murder, or even a not deliberately again I'm speaking not about this evidence, but I'm speaking hypothetically. And, so that is what we're up because it's not a simple matter, and I just think that the outrage people are feeling makes people say charge him charge him now charge them all, but what's what's the problem? And I'm like you know you want immediate satisfaction, or do you want long-term justice? That is what we're really sort of dealing with right here. There's one piece of evidence in this case again that stands out. Is that this four year old white officer Derek Chauve in nineteen years on the force head, his knee, enjoy fluids neck for eight minutes and forty six seconds. Is that restraint allowable under any circumstances by police department protocol? Great question, but basically what you're asking to comment on the evidence, which can run me into trouble with my role in the case, so what I will say is I have my own personal opinion about it, and my reaction is what you would expect it to be an elite right there. Without speaking specifically about this case, our police officers allowed to use their knees, and the next of individuals restraining to hold them down. Another good question. I will say that there is ample evidence that it is inherently dangerous practice. So as America kind of convulses under the rage that many many people are feeling, there have been protests and hundred and forty cities there have been clashes united sitting here to black men who understand clearly the history of this country, the violence. That's part of the fabric of it. How does that change the texture of the way you approach these cases? We walk into fully knowing. That we've got a put more than our best foot forward, right. We've got to. Work Extra hard. We gotTA grind. If you just act like Oh. There was no racism. I can just wing it. No that is not going to do it man. We all know that you've gotta work twice as hard to go have fire. and. That's just a lot we have been. Given, but we're not satisfied with that a lot I mean look if it was eighteen thirty. What. Good reason would any person who has in bondage have to believe that it was going to end. Thirty years laid. Why in the road. Martin Luther King Malcolm X.. Ever believe America segregation was GONNA in. L. History told them it wasn't and it was just going to be here, but somehow they said you know we're GonNa March anyway. WE'RE NOT GONNA put up with this. Even though the odds don't appear to be in our favor. So when you're talking to an African American person about the odds of success. Then another, but were we got. We have to strive for freedom, justice and equality and fairness, no matter what even if the odds our law right, 'cause. That's just how it will. That's just what's up man, and so that's how can we do less Jemaine? Keith Rudy take a quick break would right back. Hey. It's Chris. As this week on my podcast, wise is happening. I'll be talking with David Roth and Joel Anderson about ESPN's blockbuster multi part documentary series on one of the great icons of time Michael Jordan. Maybe it's amusing on how distorting. Because there's nothing can prepare you for becoming Michael Jordan. I mean we're talking about a guy who grew up in Wilmington North Carolina, a rural area went to North Carolina didn't go too far from home. Then all of a sudden he goes to Chicago in becomes this phenom, and arguably the most famous person in the world, so you can totally imagine how that may totally isolate. Isolate you from everybody else who can relate to that? Who can you trust to get inside your circle? So you may not welcome other people into it, and you may fiercely to protect your fame and your wealth in your success in the way that he had to. That's this week on. Why is this happening? Search wise is happening wherever you're listening right now and subscribe. At least there's some of us who have been around long enough to see. Some incremental change is never quite frankly enough being black in America. But when you have a an eighteen nineteen twenty twenty year, old young man, Young Woman in twenty twenty sing, what's happening seeing the disparity seeing the ongoing violence and they expressed themselves as we've heard that Martin Luther King quote that the riot is the language of the unheard. What we're seeing now that rage are we seeing a riot or rebellion? Is there a difference and doesn't matter? Mostly what I'm seeing is a militant. Station, that's mostly what I'm seeing I mean like ninety plus percent of the people are burning anybody stop. They're not breaking anything they're carrying. Their signs are passing out their flyers or wearing their t shirts. They're doing the chance to raise their voices overwhelmingly. What actually is people doing? Legitimate First Amendment protected protests. and. There are some people who are. Doing some other stuff. Tremaine this is kind of where I made part company with some of my friends. Burning down black owned businesses burning down Latino businesses. I mean there's people who took their whole life savings to start this Dislo restaurant, and you burn that down and then you tell me oh well, that's just the cost just you gotta break some x to make an Omelet. I'm like wait a minute man. These people at this little restaurant you just burned down will be the first ones justice for George Floyd. I can't. It man. And I know that some people might say. Oh, you know, get a you know. Okay well. I guess I. Just don't get it because. I cannot say that that's okay. I can say that I understand it. I can understand I understand. Why but you know what? How is it that you who lived under oppression racism kit to hurt another person? As you condemn what the police are doing hurting George fully. What I stay? Come into your conscious mind as you're so what it is that you're doing. And, then, of course, there's another element tremaine. I don't know where they're from and I. Don't know what their ideology is, but they're substrate out Asia provocateurs and I've seen these Peop-. Sam. And by the way you know who's confronted the protesters. Putting them onto what you doing, man, why are you breaking the windows autozone? But they're running around set and fires on businesses that don't deserve an actually in favor of justice for George Floyd so as my two cents on it. There have been growing calls from the families of armory and Brianna Taylor and George Floyd for Congress to step in and do something a hearing a task force. Can we legislate our way out of this can we will a congressional hearing and a mandate from high stop what we see playing out in in our city every single day when it comes to race relations and racial inequality. If. It's going to work, but I know we gotta try you support him. Absolutely one hundred percent ten thousand percent I supported, there needs to be hearings at the state level, the city level the federal level. Do you know a look president trump who has made some very unhelpful tweets in the what he could do if he was inclined to? Do a pattern and practice lawsuit against the city of Minneapolis Discrimination, but he has not done. A single one sense became president. In fact, he said a lot of things that were encouraging police brutality. Remember when he said Oh when you guys, put your hand on the head of the defendants. You don't do that so much anymore. Memory Seven. That's encouraging police brutality. He said a lot of things like that. He's not been helpful and I know a lot of folks have reason critique Obama on this and that, but he did do the twenty first century policing study, which was very important. He dug into the Ferguson. Police Department also very important, and this is the kind of hill. We'd be from the federal government. This is not a Minneapolis problem. It's not a Houston problem. It's not a promise, not in Atlanta problem. It is a national problem. It's not a this generation problem. It's last generation proud at generation before that problem, and it calls for a systemic solution, and yes, it's about policing, but it's also about housing, health, care and everything else, and so this is what we need from Congress and the president. At this moment it's not enough to condemn a somebody who did somethin' battery irresponsible. It's not even enough it convict the officers responsible for the murder of Mr Loyd, and I say murder because he's charged with murder right now, and that may even be upgraded. The real justice were become when you're. Tremaine you got any kids. have an eight year old. True when you don't have to say son. When Police Stop, you don't say not that smart Yes sir, no, sir, and then you call me as soon as you can because the police son. Will Kill you. When you don't have to have that conversation as my head with me. then. We got some justice. Right. We're not going to let public opinion. Drive us in this case. We're GONNA. Make sure nobody can say. We rush to judgment or were pushed into doing this and that by public pressure. We're doing this on the facts and the law in front of us and people have entrusted me to do that, and that is what I'm GonNa do. But at the same time it's just one. It's one data point in many many many. If we're GONNA make the life of George Floyd. Who a lot of people really love lot really really have them back. In this moment it will be that we get justice for him, and we carry for the fight beyond. What is this woman like to see your city? Going through what is going through? How does it feel knowing that? This is home in the see what's happening? Here thank I love Minneapolis. It's a great place man, and it's a beautiful place to see it as it is hurts a lot, but I will tell you. This Minnesota is always been a tale of two cities. It's this natural beauty is discreet artistic tradition. It's this wonderful. We also got some of the worst disparities in America. And what I say to my white colleagues and friends, and is look if you can make this. Like a right well condo. You know all you gotTa do is open up this thing so that everybody can share in the great benefits of this community that is here, and we can make this place a good place everyone if we would do so, and that is the challenge before us. I believe there's a lot of people of all backgrounds who WanNa do that. And there are some people who don't, but we simply got to overcome them through activism through prop elections, and through all the means that our disposal. To make the Society Justin Fair to live up to its promise of liberty and justice for all. Do you think this moment has the opportunity to be a pivot point for America. Do you believe truly that will come out of this or we could come out of this better than we were before, or did we fall back into the status quo and allow America to settle the way it's always settled. I believe an inflection point because I believe in people out there peacefully protesting. Driving by University of Minnesota the day, which is in the city of Minneapolis. All, these little kids out there blocking traffic. I know somebody who was going to be fund managers in two or three years. But they're on their campus, protesting because a black man and a whole other side of town was unjustly. Police opposite. What we really need is to make sure that everybody understands that this condition that African American. People in native American and Latino people and even some poor whites are in. Is Not good for any of us. And we need to. We need to get people to dig in. There's a young leader named Leslie Redmond She's twenty eight years old. She's the president of the NWC. There's my son thirty years. City Council member Jeremiah Ellison is a generation of young black leaders who are men they are. They are one hundred percent committed to justice. And so when you put all this together, I think what it adds up to is. We have a chance to make permanent lasting change. But but only a chance. If we believe that progress is guaranteed because of what we're going that we are are so sad at the stake. After, everybody goes back to their school homework after Kobe nineteen over after the buildings are rebuild. WHO's going to be fighting for change then? And the question is does America want that change that you speak of their young people and old people who believe in the ideals of American would. It could be, but we've seen the marching protesting and the elections before, and we all always end up at the same pace does America want it. or I'd say is that nine hundred fifty four? We had a miracle. It's a segregated society because of marching by nineteen sixty six. There was racism disparities, but we had gotten rid of the. Grossest. Before that you had Thurgood Marshall in them out there fighting a legal battle, then you had the popular struggle led by King Malcolm, X. and others. We have made progress into not acknowledge that means we're not honoring our ancestors, but at the same time every generation has a challenge. This generation's challenge is to end racism which had subways is even harder. But it can be done. If you believe that a person is a person as a person. Then! You believe you've got to believe that we can overcome racist. Racial disparities. But it's not going to be easy and you in this marathon, not a sprint. Keith Ellison thank you so much. We got you on day. One of your handling this case and we really appreciate you. Take time out for us, but more importantly, so thank you very much. Keep at it through mainly. Keith Ellison is attorney general of Minnesota. I heard a saying once. A child WHO's not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel it's warmth. Right now America is burning. The spark may have been the suspected murder of George Floyd by a white police officer Minnesota and the killings of Ahmad Aubrey in Georgia and Brianna Taylor and Kentucky before him, but the kindling of racial inequality injustice and violence have been simmering long before. We ever knew their names. And now as the of black pain, resistance sparked protests across the country and the spirit of violent odd. has consumed the young and the angry. We are left to sift through the ashes to make sense of the senseless. So this week on into America will be the unrest unfolding in cities across America by examining the roots of institutional racism, structural inequality, and what it will take the dynamic change in this country. Because of the significance of this moment we are breaking from our usual schedule to bring you coverage every day this week. Into America is produced by Israeli. Angel Alison Bailey Aaron Don Max Jacobs Barbara Rab Clare's high is Turner and creepy. Barth on original music by Hanns Braun. Our Executive Producer is ellen. Franken Steve. Tie is executive producer audio. I'm sure mainly. We'll be back tomorrow.

George Floyd America murder Minnesota Minneapolis officer Tremaine Keith Ellison attorney Congress president George Brianna Taylor George Lloyd Keith Attorney National Guard Hennepin county Mike Freeman Police Department
10.23.20 Culture Friday, What Killed Michael Brown?, and Word Play

The World and Everything In It

31:14 min | Last month

10.23.20 Culture Friday, What Killed Michael Brown?, and Word Play

"The world everything in it as possible by listeners like us, my name is Leah Geyer and I'm from Lafayette Indiana I. Appreciate How world has kept my stay at home mom bubble and my quarantine bubble popped I. Hope you enjoyed today's program. Good Morning. Pope Francis is pushing to legitimize same sex relationships with an idea lgbt activists rejected six years ago and I think he who tried to care about every human being. Is the pro-life of that's ahead on Culture Friday plus Megan Basham reviews a new documentary that Amazon originally did one and platform older made Ferguson pay the price for racist murder. Was Neither racist nor murder at our wordsmith George grant with wordplay. Is Friday October twenty third. This is the world and everything in it from listener supported world radio. I'm Mary Reicher and Myrna Brown Good Morning. Down the news with Kent, Covington. The president and his Democratic rival faced off for the final time last night. Before the election, we welcome to the stage former Vice President Joe Biden and President Donald J trump. The candidates met at Belmont University in Nashville for the second and final debate and while both candidates lobbed personal attacks, they avoided the name calling and constant cross talk that marked the first debate on the covid nineteen pandemic Biden said President Trump's response has been reckless and he called for a more measured approach to reopening the economy. You haven't ruled out more shutdowns. No I'm not shutting down, but there are look the standard. The Standard is if you have a reproduction rate in a community, that's above a certain level everybody says slow up the president counter that Biden is ignoring the unintended consequences of lockdowns people are losing their jobs. They're committing suicide this depression alcohol drugs at a level that nobody's ever seen before we have to open our country to cure. CanNot be worse than the problem itself on healthcare trump again said, he still hopes to replace obamacare while retaining its most popular provision. Preexisting conditions will always say what I would like to do is a much better healthcare much better. The former vice president said, he would largely keep the current law in place while expanding the government's role. When I'm going to do is pass obamacare with a public option. Become Biden care. The Public Election Day is now just eleven days away though more than forty million Americans have already voted early Biden holds an eight point lead in an average of recent national polls trump also trailing most swing state surveys but the trump campaign is quick to note he trailed in the polls for years ago as well. Meantime, the US intelligence community is working overtime to guard against foreign interference ahead of the election on. Intel officials said Russian hackers have targeted the networks of dozens of US state and local governments stealing data from at least two servers. US officials say it would be extremely difficult for hackers to alter vote tallies have warned about other interference including cyber attacks meant to impede the voting process and on Wednesday director of National Intelligence. John Ratcliffe told reporters that we have identified that Iran and Russia have taken specific actions to influence public opinion relating to our elections he said Iran sent A. Flurry of fake e mails aimed at hurting president trump's reelection campaign. The threatening emails sense to Democratic voters claimed to be from far right groups in the United States that in an apparent effort to make it appear as though pro-trump groups were terrorising voters at a news conference, FBI Director, Christopher. Wray assured the public. We are not going to tolerate foreign interference in our elections or any criminal activity that threaten the sanctity of your vote or undermined public confidence in the outcome of the election. The two officials called out Iran and Russia for obtaining US voter registration information race the United States will hold bad actors accountable and that the integrity of the vote remain sound. The number of Americans seeking jobless benefits fell last week to the lowest level in months. World's Kristen Flavin reports. The Labor Department said seven hundred, Eighty, seven, thousand people filed claims last week that figure was down from eight, hundred, forty, two, thousand, the week before and the lowest that number has been since pandemic shutdown started crushing many businesses back in March unemployment claims fell in thirty nine states and rose in just eleven. Thursdays report also said the number of people continuing to receive jobless aid tumbled by one million to eight point four million economists welcomed declines as evidence that the job market is continuing to recover. Though many are concerned that a fall corona virus surge could reverse some of those gains reporting for world I'm Kristen Flahavan. Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee Advanced Amy Coney Barrett's Supreme Court nomination to the full Senate on Thursday that despite Democratic Boycott Mr Chairman, the votes are twelve yays ten votes. The nomination will be reported favorably to the floor with a unanimous vote. Boycotting the judiciary panel session forced Republicans on the panel to change its rules to keep the confirmation on track. Those rules stated that at least two members of the minority party needed to be present to constitute a quorum for doing. Business Democrats refused to show up in protest of the committees vote on Barrett they say it should have waited until the presidential election and that the next president should fill the Supreme Court vacancy. The full Senate will vote on Barrett's nomination on Monday and Republicans. Say They have the fifty plus votes needed to confirm her? Can't Covington and straight ahead, the pope's position on same sex marriage loss George grant spell checks, the constitution. This is the world and everything in it. It's Friday the twenty third of October twenty twenty. Glad to have you along born today's edition of the world and everything in it. Good morning a Myrna Brown and Mary Record. Pope Francis grabbed headlines this week after the release of a documentary film on his life in it he appears to refer to a position. He took back in two thousand fourteen when he was archbishop in Argentina. Back then he called on the government to pass a Civil Union Law for same sex couples. In the documentary, the Pope is quoted saying they are children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it. What we have to create is a Civil Union Law that way they are legally covered I stood up for that at the Rome film. Festival. A Russian director said he understood the pope to be calling for acceptance of homosexual people but not going so far as to be changing church doctrine. Now, this is from a Reuters interview with the director. Seen the ducks is important that he. peaching us to stop labeling and stop framing people you love every human being to be equal in this world one lgbt rights group in the United States applauded the pope's remarks as quoting here a fundamental step forward at a time when LGBTQ acceptance around the world and across religions is expanding and rightfully becoming the norm. Well, it's culture Friday and so let's welcome John Stonestreet John Is President of the Colson Center for Christian Worldview Good Morning John Good Morning. Mary Morning Myrna. Well, it's interesting to me that the buzz is about civil unions in two thousand, fourteen because the very next year in two thousand fifteen is when the Supreme Court reversed marriage laws here and firmly rejected half-measures like civil unions, the courts obergefell decision rooted same sex marriage in dignity in other words that only an equal right to a marriage would pass legal muster from here on out and LGBT groups absolutely reject civil unions. So it seems to me what we quoted here is exactly right. The applause is for what activist groups he as a fundamental step forward John, what are you say? Well I think the history here is that Pope Francis before he was pope used the idea of civil unions as kind of a strategic measure in order to hold back same sex marriage, and it was kind of seen as a a third way or as a middle ground, and that's what unions have always been within this movement. It's been kind of a useful place to get to it's kind of an incremental victory but but it's not a destination four. lgbtq rights groups because When I mean by useful is not even that it's just an incremental staff, it's it's something to achieve so that from there, you can further claim bigotry or discrimination. One civil unions were allowed and civil unions, of course, intending even for heterosexual couples to grant the same sorts of property rights, legal kind of status for couples in artificially quote unquote married now you could say, well, what's the difference right? It's it's everything but the name so it must be out of Animus or bigotry, and it certainly seemed like Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy. Bought arguments similar to that one and so on. So the stranger thing is why this is coming out now kind of what's the point I mean civil unions like you said, I mean. That's so two thousand fourteen who who's talked about civil unions even since two thousand fourteen. John I'm not an expert on Roman Catholic theology but I do understand marriage for Catholics is sacramental. The pope appears on a really treacherous roads for any kind of long held position the Church has had on the meaning of marriage. So do you think it's possible that the pope could go further than he has I think that's the question I think that's a question that is troubling for a lot of faithful Catholics You know there's that old joke he's more Catholic than the pope. There's a lot of Catholics more. Catholic. Than the pope at this moment after that statement yesterday but not just that statement yesterday I mean, this isn't a new concern with this. Particular pontiff on one level again I WANNA go back to what we know from history, which is that you know when it was bishop in Argentina this pope used civil unions as a strategic measure, and that measure is based on reducing marriage down to only a sacrament. This is in my mind both a strength and weakness here of this particular theological position on the strength position it actually treats this as something divinely instituted, which it of course is it recognizes the inherent, just a blessedness of one image bearer and another image bear coming together in for life and that the actual outcome of that is going to be more image bears. It's an remarkable thing that God has done. In marriage at the same time, we need to understand that marriage is God's Sacramento gift to his creation to all image bears you don't have to be a Christian to be married. This is a natural grace that God has given with the Pope is is doing is is drawing this line to protect the churches ability to church marriage with the problem with that is in the church ceases to become the institution that it is always been pointing to marriage as a gift from God to all people. And Look I'm not saying that every church has done that but I think that's what marriage has always been The state obviously is no longer in that business proclaiming to the world what God had instituted This institution that is both pre state and pre church So if the states out of doing that, we don't want the church being out of doing that. So as a strategic measure to protect our territory, I'm not a fan of the civil unions approach if it's tactical if its theological. Of course, not I mean that's just a radical. It's it's wrong in in the Catholic situation calling this Sacramento and then going against that that would make this in a sense a radical. I don't think he's gone that far I don't think we should think he's gone that far at this point, but that would be a huge mistake. Well. I want to play one more piece of sound from the Director of this documentary very interesting. Again, director Eugenie Avenue, waikiki casting the pope's pro lgbt statements as an important break from tradition because the old traditions that staying in the closet still and I think he who trying to care about. Being he is the prolife person. So. That's my statement. Now. It's a little hard to make that out but remember the old idea of being in the closet or being out of the closet. This is very old language around homosexuality but his point is that the pope's statements will help homosexuals come out of the closet in more conservative societies around the world and even more interesting is this is how the director interprets pro-life saying the pope's encouraging words for the lgbt community is what makes him the prolife person redefining the meaning of prolife? Well, you know in a sense, I? Think he's right that it will encourage more folks to come out of the closet, and I think that's actually what's happened in this papacy on a couple levels that said the redefining of the term pro-life is just you know obviously a ridiculous thing it's not stick actually and here's what I mean by that. The problem with what we've done to marriage. What we've done to sexuality is that we've removed any sort of created given to it from its definition from what it actually is, and you actually hear this in churches. Faithful Churches as well that don't go this far they talk about marriage being about companionship marriage is being about mutual affection and commitment and love everything. But actually the bodies that God has given us coming together. When Jesus said that the two shall become one flesh he did not say the to show become just one but we often in song and and even in our modern liturgy and in the modern ways we talk about marriage talk about it as if it's an emotional oneness with it's an emotional oneness than and that's it and there's no reason to keep it away from same sex couples and that allows somebody like this to us this ridiculous language. But if marriage actually. Has To do with the becoming of one flash and in the becoming of one flesh kick-starting process that requires two people a male and a female can never be done by two males or two females and can never be done by anyone alone, and that is the physical process of procreation which got instituted in order to allow his image bearers to be fruitful, multiply fill the earth and subdue it than to say it's pro-life is patently false on its head had we actually capped inherently throughout the early days of the sexual revolution, the fundamental ties between marriage and procreation as being more than just kind of a personal choice or hey. Do. You want to have kids I'm not sure I WANNA have kids instead of the god-given created designed to the institution itself than it would be a lot easier to call this what it is, which is bogus. T to say that an inherently sterile union could in any way be pro-life an inherently sterile union doesn't produce any life whatsoever. John Stonestreet is president of the Colson Center for Christian worldview thanks John Thank you. Additional support comes from Christian Book Dot. com great gifts for everyone on your list at Christian Book Dot Com. Well. A man in California recently made a wager with his wife Mike meyler his bride McKenna a hundred dollars that she could not run a mile in less than eight minutes. While he lost that bet big dive she ran it in five minutes twenty five seconds. Mike welcomed a breathless McKenna at the finish line. One hundred dollars. Her five and a half minute one mile time was impressive according to Reuters World The average female runner completes a mile in ten minutes and forty seconds, but her feet was present for. Reason twenty-eight-year-old mechanic was nine months pregnant. She cleared it with her doctor before running mike later wrote someone check the Guinness Stats. My wife is an absolute champion well, good news. They can gave birth on Tuesday to a healthy baby girl what a Mama. It's the world and everything in it. It's Friday. October twenty third and you're listening to world radio supportive listeners like you. Thanks for joining us today. I'm Mary, record, and Myrna Brown this summer during the height of the black lives matter protests. Amazon prime released a series of billboards promising to amplify black voices. It also added and amplify branded Carousel of African American films to its homepage but there was one black filmmaker. The streaming giant wasn't interested in amplifying at least until it faced a barrage of negative press. Shelby Still Megan Basham our movie reviewer explains why Few screenwriters bring as impressive resume to their project as shelby steele. He's a former San, Jose state literature professor and Hoover Institution Fellow at. Stanford. Along with winning a National Book Critics Circle Award a National Humanities Award and a writers Guild Award. He also won an Emmy for a documentary he co wrote and produced for the PBS news program frontline. Yet when steel in his son director Eli Steel submitted what killed Michael Brown to Amazon's video on demand service they received this reply. Unfortunately, we have found that your title doesn't meet Prime Video content quality expectations and is not eligible for publishing on the service. At this time, we will not be accepting resubmission of this title and this decision may not be appealed. Anyone, who views the film will get a quick idea what prompted such a terse reply back. Then I had no cynicism about justice. It was the word who animated the civil rights moment more than any of it. But after three years and these Saint Louis, I no longer trusted the word. It hit more than it revealed. And left too much room for corruption. What killed Michael Brown ostensibly focuses on the tragic case of a black teenager killed by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri in two thousand fourteen. But what it tells us about cultural myths, how big tech and big media helped shape them in why goes far beyond a single point? Still call these myths such as the widespread inaccuracy that Brown had his hands up and said, don't shoot just before he died poetic truth people buy into it not because they've examined the evidence and found credible but because it aligns with narratives, they already believe it feels true. This is a distortion of the actual truth. That we use sue for leverage, in power in. The world. It is a partisan version of reality. A storyline. That, we put forward to build our case. For example. The Michael Brown was executed. Is a poetic truth in steals example, the poetic truth is that systemic racism in the Ferguson Police Department created an environment that led to Brown's death Obama Administration Attorney General Eric holder found no evidence officer Darren Wilson was motivated by race. What he did find is that black people make up only two-thirds of Ferguson's population yet represent eighty, five percent traffic stops because of that concluded widespread bias permeated the police department, but Ferguson's mayor had another explanation based on more localized data. Ferguson is a community that's integrated but are surrounding neighboring communities are predominantly African, American ninety, percent ninety, five percent statistically who do you think is driving down the roads people from all over this area come to Sam's. Because there is no grocery stores, no Walmart's nothing nor Saint Louis City in every one of those people come to Ferguson to shop Steele says the danger and favoring poetic truth over objective truth or put another way broad theories over specific details is it always traps us into solving the wrong problems he makes a host of arguments worthy of consideration but for Christian viewers, the way steel highlights how to different churches approach. Nebulous subject of justice is especially valuable. The first joins forces with out of town activists between and hurt. You get you get gassing is the were it was going to the same off and the protesters had not had a place a home base if you will just come and to set up. The movement will not have last as long as it lasts. The result several local black leaders explain was at violent protests in. Ferguson. Went on longer than they otherwise might have the city was torn apart in the end poor minorities who lived there faced destroyed infrastructure crashing property values and fewer resources. Steel puts it starkly holder made Ferguson pay the price for racist murder. That was neither racist nor a murder. The second church is in Chicago's south side. Pastor Corey Brooks doesn't talk about theories or politics neither does a young former drug dealer who now works with him be coming home I was Los I'm GonNa be on it. I just did he gets fees. I got some good street skills but. My friend take me to the church. And I'm like WHO ELITE You mean the past might help you passed and brought home. Like now, you have to talk to office. He ran neighborhood now I mean he'll run no neighborhood I'm. So meet. Santa. Pastor he was like okay. I know I know who you are a lot about you. Glad. See you home but I'm new sheriff in town. Did you really know what you did. Tell you community. Might. Not What Tweet really Dow Brooks's ministry teaching. These young men tangible life skills that they go on to teach other young men has created a domino effect of transformed lives. From a bird's eye view. It's all too easy to over simplify every headline in favor of our neat ideologies to create our own. Poetic Truth. But when a steals closing questions suggests the path out of focusing on forests and forgetting about trees. I wonder what would have happened If Michael Brown has had the good fortune to meet Pastor Brooks. It's our job to try and provide an answer to that question for some other Michael. Brown. I'm Megan Basham. Hey. Sir. You. Awesome A. Free. Today is Friday October twenty third. Thank you for turning the world radio to help start your day. Good. Morning I'm Mary Record and Mona Brown. One Week from today, we will have our regular listener feedback segment. So if you have something you want to tell us now is your chance. Now we love getting emails and connecting with you on social media, but we can't play those messages on the program. No, he can't, and that's why we especially like getting audio feedback from you. Now you can do that in one of two ways caller feedback line at two, zero, two, seven, zero, nine, nine, five, nine, five, or even better record voice memo on your smartphone in just email it to us simple enough. All right coming next on the world and everything and word play with George Grant. When the text of the constitution was first composed in seventeen, eighty seven, it was written in the manner of the day. In other words, it was hand written with a goose quill pen dipped in oak gall ink inscribed on fine parchment according to the supervising conservator at the National Archives in Washington that original copy with its distinctively. Griffey was engrossed by Jacob shall us one of the officials doger's at the constitutional convention in? Philadelphia. Without the benefit of a spell checker. APP Shallows Inevitably made a few spelling mistakes mistakes that survive in the revered document to this day. To air is human after all. For instance, in the list of signatories, the word Pennsylvania. Is misspelled with a single in in the first syllable the states correct spelling does appear in Article One section to making the contradiction all the more noticeable. Hand embarrassing shallows after all was from Pennsylvania and he served as the clerk for its state assembly. There may have been some consolation for him though in the fact that it was apparently a common enough mistake mistaken eighteenth century, America even the inscription on the Liberty Bell immortalizes the misspelling. Another snafu shallows made in the constitution was a common enough one. It's still is an article one, section ten he spelled the word it's with an apostrophe as if the word were contraction of it is but. The word is used as a possessive and thus it should have been spelled without the apostrophe. On several occasions, shallows, spells, the word choose with a you rather than the customary double O to modernize. This looks like an obvious mistake. Actually, it was an acceptable Hornet, spelling in the Eighteenth Century American spelling standards. Then as now we're inconsistent at best. Not surprisingly, shells also use the British spelling for a number of words defense spelled with a C rather than with an s and control and Labor both spelled with Oh you dip thongs rather than with a single. Oh, again though these were. Able alternate spellings in the former colonies pondering these lexical graphic oddities reminded me, of Mark, Twain Delightful Quip. Anyone who can only think of one way to spell a word. Obviously lacks imagination. I'm George Grant. Well, it takes many souls to put this program together each week. So we want to say a big thank you to Megan Basham Paul Butler Janey Cheney Kent. COVINGTON. Nick. EICHER. Chris Inflammatory Katie me George Grant Kim Henderson Anna Joe Hansen getting married tomorrow. He is go Anna Lee Jones unease ao he carry body Pritchett Sarah Schwartzberg Cal Thomas Whitney Williams, and Kyle's them nick our audio engineers Johnny Franklin, and Carl pedes stay up late to get the program to you early. Paul. Butler is executive producer and Marvan Alaska is editor in chief and youth without you none of this happens. So we thank you for your support. Jesus said Love The Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. I. Hope You have a restful weekend.

pope president director United States Pope Francis Myrna Brown Michael Brown Church George grant Megan Basham Megan Basham Paul Butler Janey Ferguson murder John Stonestreet John Supreme Court Joe Biden Amazon Reuters President Trump Jesus
Who Replaces Me?

The Daily

44:06 min | 3 months ago

Who Replaces Me?

"Have you ever? Have you ever looked at the state police graduating classes. Okay do me a favor? Go back and look at their classes the graduating classes. See How many black people you see We need our police departments to to mirror the communities that we're serving. We need those officers to come from within those communities. That'll make data make detains out of that old. When people start seeing, we really truly care from our hearts People will see police in a different way. From The New York Times I'm Michael Borrow. This if daily so of course, it is disturbing the number of African Americans that are killed by police and. Raising conversation a number of questions about what are the issues that need to be tackled within police departments, and one of the things that comes up has to do with hiring practices and diversity. There's a growing consensus to change American policing police departments must look more like the communities they serve too many looking in from the outside. It's hard to understand how the police force could be majority white and the community majority African American. Why can they? How can there be such? A disconnect or a discrepancy between the two today. We're her. Harm. Get off that protests like a input application. We'll put you in your neighborhood. And We will help you resolve some of the problem that you protesting about. The dailies Lindsey Garrison spoke with one officer in Flint. Michigan about his experience serving the community he grew up in. It's Monday August thirty first. Okay Press. And then. Try talking you little way so I called up Scott Watson. Okay. I'm talking to the actual phone. Now he was on duty the night we talked. So he left his police scanner on just in case he got a call. I'm I'm ready as I'll ever GONNA be. So My name is Scott Watson I'm from born and raised in Flint Michigan fifty-three-year-old blackmail. And I've been a city of Flint Police officer for the past twenty three years. And Scott Story begins in nineteen, sixty six. So. Mom had me when she was sixteen. So you can imagine, you know having a child at sixteen back then wasn't you know it wasn't easy coming from a single parent household Honestly I? Mean we were we struggled Scott and his mom they move into the lower level of her brother's house. In this neighborhood called Saint John's which is just on the edge of the Buick car plant. It was still segregated for the most part and Scott's mom had a job at sears. You know I was a loner child. and. My mom never had to like give me up for schooling. Give me dress. From, tot lot on you know I could get myself up in get myself together. I I didn't require much. You Know Mom's very nice. She did the best she could but she was in love she was in love with basically a bad boy. You know high school he was. One of the football players, but he liked the streets and. Also. He ended up going to prison and he says as a child, he didn't think much about his dad must first real memory of him was go to Jackson prison in visiting him. Just. We went somewhere to visit a man that I really did know who you know. Come to find out was was my dad. But he has some point within the next couple of years. You know he got out of prison and that's where really my experiences. Learning I guess learning more about may began. When his dad comes home from prison, it totally changes Scott's life. You know he sold drugs and I would. I didn't have a bedroom saw slept on the couch in the living room. You know it was nothing for me to see strange people in the house all the time people knocking on the door we always in the morning the by drug I'd walk in the bathroom I see people shooting up heroin. That's what my dad was addicted to heroin I opened up a bathroom drawer. I will see pieces of rubber that they used a tie it off. Needles were blood on them at a very young age. I knew the difference between boy was heroin and girl was cocaine. It in the basement and the washing machine and dryer me you know there with guns in every corner at a house I had opportunity to see it all. The. Key should know, but I was never wanted kids. Touch any of that stuff. And Scott's dad he barely acknowledges Scott he kinda treat Scott like he's not even there I mean. As kind of bad disabled. He would take me to the drug houses. He would leave me there and he will leave with his friends. They would talk about drug activity writer, front me, and his friends would kind of look like you know should we be doing this and he would just tell them. y'All. have to worry. He'll say nothing and he was right I would never. You know I would never say anything about his business. Remember back in those days, kids stayed in a kids place though that was. That was all adult stuff but I took it all in. The only time. His Dad really does pay attention to Scott. Is when he brings him into the business. So back then you know a lot of people were on assistance you had I a month people would get their checks, him and his friends they would go and people mailbox and take their chicks male or female, and no. I can remember my dad dressing up Michael. Lady. And taking me window to the bank to cash the check and it look good. You know having to look you know look here, which is like. Wow. And it seemed like, I'm talk more about my dad because the most of the negativity kind of. The negatively, and positively actually kinda comes from him because I wanted to be everything that he wasn't. That Dr Scott says it motivates him and his quiet way. He keeps on with school and his homework. He makes himself something to eat sometimes just ketchup sandwiches for lunch or dinner. And every free moment he has he pours himself into his escape basketball. And now brought up. Was the escape for me. I mean day and night. If there was something basketball related on TV a washed it. globetrotters used to have a variety show back then so I'll start learning how to do not tricks and drills and stuff and. Just got good at rooting break. Takes, Hispasat ball literally everywhere with him. He even sleeps with it like some kids had teddy bears. And stuff I didn't have any of that. I had a basketball. Basketball was my best friend was as I got older. It was my girlfriend it was my woman is is like Else, really nothing else mattered to me other than the be the beat a best. So it took me away from all the negative things that. Were happening around me. And while Scott is outside, spending these hours on the street and. Just in his everyday life going to school. He sees police officers everywhere. They're doing community policing in his neighborhood. Then they're doing foot patrol while he's growing up actually a friend of mine his sister she was on a police department knows several of his friends whose family our police officers so they were. Pretty much. Positive. Role models. Manila's coming up. Even, the times when police officers were called into his house for various domestic disputes between his father and his mother. Even then he didn't have a negative perception of the police. He didn't really felt the police in those moments were nasty or or abusive speak another police at the time they is to get the problem solved Saad thinking bad about them like say it was more reflection on on my mom and dad. So those were mostly good experiences. But then Scott turns thirteen. Then, this would be a negative experience. Friend of mine stand was billy he was like fifteen. He was not a bad. He was just kind of mischievous just. Kind of mischief skiied. Hemisphere Marg is broke into a house in the police showed up. and. Billy took off running out the back door and went to jump a fence and white police officer shot him in the back of the head with his shotgun killed him. And that touched off some. Real tensions. People were starting to rioting in you know soda. Dat was. Kind of my first. Bout with. Some perceive racism, you know White Police, officer, Black Kid. Shot a young black boy in a head who was running away from a property crime. You know you killed him. And now I'm angry but at the same time you're not ma'am billy was wrong he no, he broke into somebody's house or whatever. So you know he he definitely didn't deserve at but he was wrong. Over the next couple of years, Scott, kind of starts to drift off. His grandmother dies which hits him really hard. And he stops playing basketball he starts skipping school. Even, if he attends class, he doesn't really engage. He just sits there quietly and his GPA ends up falling to zero point six. And then two things happened. So guided I was hanging out with we were skipped school one day and he had a car. and we were going down the highway. We doing over one hundred miles an hour. And a A semi truck was in the lane next to us and got over in front of us. And this humongous semi move suddenly right in front of their car and. Scott's friend in the driver's seat has to just quickly slam on the brakes the car skids and we almost I mean we were right. Right up? As, bumper About the heater right right back and I just seen my life flash before my eyes and I'm like who I mean. Is scared me to death so that happened. So After that about a week later. He was killed. He was killed by some of my other friends they got into it over a gold chain or something you know they did a drive by and killed him. He's dead and some my friends they ended up going to prison. And then Scott. He just has this realization lake. If I don't make some changes here. The same kind of future is waiting for me and it's like after that happened is like alright this is God's way of telling me. You GotTa get to live together 'cause. Nothing good is gonNA come out of that so. And so he does. I start going to school every day I start doing my work starts playing basketball again and going to school, and eventually he gets spotted by this basketball coach at a junior college in Flint who's looking for undiscovered players he took me in and like I was his son. And I brought a couple of other guys alone. While, he's playing there. He's noticed again by northern Colorado, university and they offer him a scholarship I got a full ride scholarship. Scott Scott moves from Flint Michigan to Greeley Colorado. And he has to pick a major a newer from the other side. I by the criminal activity and stuff I seen as a little kid. I mean I knew. If I knew knew about the drug game in time you could get for. Committing certain crimes and you know it unknowingly being a part of crimes sometime you know as a little kid. It just it just criminal justice was just came easy for me it was natural for me. And when he graduates his career choice seems like a natural one to in my mind. Everything my dad was I wanted to be a total the total opposite. So once I was honest with myself and evaluated who I am in my. You know knowing what I'm capable. Love. It was. It was easy. It. Was Easy. And so he returns home to Flint and enrolls in the police academy they're. Just, kind of went from there. Very back. Up Work is the world's largest remote talent platform. Dad's designers, writers, strategists you name it find hire and pay all in one place. Whatever skills your scope demands up work is how needs to find coders outside your area in Seo specialist for six weeks or UI designer through December pros available short a long-term one time or as often as you need them and they're proven related and reviewed when you need in demand talent on demand up work is how This is Mark Lacey National? Editor. At The New York Times. We know you have a lot on your minds right now you're wondering about case counts online learning whether it makes sense to fly. You're following protests, presidential politics and economic tunneled. When will you go back to your workplace or when will you go back to work were also thinking about these questions and so many more we try each Day to interview the experts, do the deep research and hit the road. So we can help find you the answers. The Times is also seeking meaning in the movies we watch the books we read in the music listened to none of this work would be possible without new. York Times subscribers so thank you and if you'd like to subscribe to the Times go to NY TIMES DOT COM SLASH SUBSCRIBE So Scott Moves back home to flint and he enrolls in the Flint Police Academy. And he says that when he enrolls at this time in the mid nineties, there's this huge push for police officers of color. The current police chief at the time is black and he's really trying to increase the number of black police officers in that department. And Scott really wants to be a part of that. Now, my mom, my mom was just like. A police officer. You don't look like a police officer saw explain to her Mike. So what what does a police officer look like? And she really didn't have A. She does it. It didn't look like me. So. I'm like wow Okay. But I I know me and WHO BETTER TO PROTECT? My community in Din me. My first day on the road. We hit the ground running and I think my first night on the road we ran like fifty radio calls. So Scott says they're responding to these calls him and these two supervisors he's with. and. It's like every call they respond to Scott knows everyone. And these white officers are like. Every. Call. We gone. I think I impress my training officers because every car that we went on the people knew me. You know and I'm just I. Hey you know I grew up here I play sports year. So yeah, I. Know I know a lot of people. Versus. Got It was like this call to duty is being validated on his very first day of the job. I don't think there's anybody better to do a job then myself. But then in his first year and I was out of training, I was working by myself and officer got in a chase China Stop Vehicle Scott is called in to help pursue a black suspect who fled during a traffic stop. So the suspect dot his vehicle when he took off running through the yard now this is wintertime when I say winner, I mean, it is it is freezing outside freezing coal. BEEN SNOWING A lot. So you know here in Michigan, we don't shove are back hours or whatever. So to snow is high. So anyway this guy he jumps out his vehicle he takes off running. And he runs duties, people who? He tries to jump a wooden fenced in a fence breaks. he does have a code on or anything and he lands lands in all this heavy snow and Scott gets out of his car and he's walking up to the scene and. Audit, these white officers are showed up. and. They. All kicks. No owner kicks on his face on his head. and. May Mahar drop So I, just I walk I stepped right in between our level. Pick MUP- brush the snow off of him handcuffed, put him in the back seat of my car and cut the knockout the heat all and I transport him to the station. Ns funny because. He was at. The suspect was mad. You just Kinda got the feeling from him that. You know this just business like this is how was supposed to be and I never experienced that until then and I'm like this is not how supposed to be. I think I was more hurt than he was i. mean he was glad to I was there to to pick him up in in you know he was so appreciative of you know. I hate to say this but that CNN black phase that. Like. You know okay I'm safe. I'm safe You know he he took care of me not going. Let anything. Else happened to me. But Scott can't really get over what he saw at that moment. It Dad made me. Question. was really going on here. It made me like is this is this something I really wanted to be a part of. He keeps thinking about that. In that moment, it made me rethink but actually. The had to make my resolve greater because it showed me is like we need more like me and less like that. In the big picture I need to stay. Scott continues to work on patrol for a number of years, and then he moves onto the special squad where he's investigating drugs and gangs on the streets of Flint, and as he gets further and further into his career on the force, he kinda grows to believe that he can be a force for good in all of these smaller ways they have block clubs and stuff on the North End of Flint I would go to the blocks means I wasn't getting paid I wouldn't known a police. Kids to the Prom for free. So they'll have nice problem experience. You know I see somebody who hungry you know go on my pocket and you know give them money so they can get something to eat people digging always reach me by my cell phone or go get the food for him because I don't buy cigarettes alcohol on you know they had my number, they can pick up the phone, call me and I can take care of the problems I'm always trying to help people out with the issues. In two thousand six after Scott is in the department for nearly a decade something happens and Flint. The black pastors complained that there wasn't enough minorities in upper administrative positions in the police department, it didn't reflect. Our community. Saw The black pastors wanted to the white mayor they want him to do something about it. and. You know it's an interesting time in the police department because. It's almost equal parts, white officers and equal parts black officers. Scott said that basically the black officers that were recruited by the black police chief in the nineties back when Scott joined a lot of those officers were still around. But what the pastors were complaining about was that hardly any of those black officers were in positions of command the captains, lieutenants, the sergeants all the way up to the chief those positions were overwhelmingly white. Sold the black pastors wanted to the white mayor. They wanted him to do something about it. So he came up with the idea of heaven, a group of officers outside of the regular ranks B above everybody in the regular ranks, and they were caught a citizen service bureau, and then he promotes four black officers Internet group but there was no rhyme or reason how he chose these people there was no testing. There was no, there was no nothing just. This this we want is so almost immediately the police unions respond. The white officers in the Department got together with the Union. Filed a lawsuit. And there was a reverse discrimination lawsuit. More than forty officers file of. Reverse discrimination lawsuit complaining that. The mayor had no basis for those promotions. He didn't follow any procedure and he overlooked qualified white officers in those promotions will all two black officers like well hold up here Know. This unfair to us if there's no testing procedure. It affects US also. And slight. Wow. So Long Story Short. Ottawa officers. The lowest amount of money got was like twenty, five, thousand, the white officers actually win the case. The city loses millions of dollars and. skype is feeling totally blindsided if. It felt like honestly us against them at that point you know when you see all the Oughta white officers band together and basically we were. You know two black officers were kept out. And, it's like We're not one I mean. So yeah, there there's. You guys over here and US over here. And That's pretty much how Scott comes to think about the department. As. Two departments. So you know for US black like, wow, you know y'all walk around here preaching you know Thin Blue Line, and we all brothers but I think people. Dan Blue Line Kinda Kinda wrong within that Dan blue. Line. IS A. Is a racial divide also. And that's the part that. I don't think people see. We smile in each other's faces. But you know in the back of your mind When the chips are down dares a division. and. You can tell when they're in their circles. When it's just them. It's a lot different than when they're around us. This all comes into greater focus for Scott. With the killing of George Floyd. So initially, someone was telling me about it, but I hadn't seen the video. So, maybe a day or two after happen I, seen the video. and. I was hurt me to my core. My core. Suddenly his identity as a black officer. Rather than feeling like a source of pride. IT TURNS INTO A source of consciousness. Right, after this after I seen video. I came to work. Oh my gosh. Embarrassed to put a uniform on. Embarrassed to get out of my cruiser. I stopped at a one a guys who barbecue on the street. No, and I stopped to get some the eat. And I just felt. Really felt like I didn't belong. I was the embarrassment that I feel like people looking at me like. You know giggle one them right there you know that's. What I feel in. I just WANNA stay out the way I on WanNa. Make no traffic stops on. Get night after stuff happened. is about. Two o'clock in the morning. In I'm in a semi Marc car and I'm Ryan down the main street but this is pretty much empty and his car fly they fly by me. and. So I'll pull him over I, got licensed drivers and stuff. So. I walk up to the current I'm just as polite in. It was a male and a female in the mill was driving by a couple. And like You'll license registration proof insurance whatever and I asked him if he knew I stopped them. Oh. I mean he he was so disrespectful to me in. Talking about how we keep we don't do number killed people in. I mean he was cussing at me and. Asked just kept my composure compulsion I'm like, okay he mad. They're mad I. I did understand what they don't understand is I'm mad also. So. I ran his name and everything he had driver's license didn't write him with ticket or anything, and I just walked back to his car and I gave him his stuff back in. told him. y'All have a good night. And it's like after I said that he couldn't respond. It's almost like he couldn't believe like. He didn't cuss me out or anything. But I was hurt but I kind of had to decide it. Honestly is just that film like. He. is against you I mean you know your own people are. Calling Uncle Tom, sell out. and. You know you got your white counterparts who you know. Again Scott is having this feeling that. There are these conversations going on in the office that he's not really a part of. He says in the conversations that he's hearing. Everyone is flatly and condemning what happened to George Floyd. But then he goes on facebook. You know there's been some things social media post by officers. White officers. were. Less than It, made it may officers feel some type away made Specifically are black officer so he. I don't even know if it's I don't even know how to really approach the subject but we we have some officers, some young white officers who made some statements on social. This is what Scott said. He saw. Were in a he reads one post from a white colleague that said, George Floyd was a piece of shit and a criminals criminal, and then he reads another comment from a white supervisor who writes that. There must have been a big fight before that happened. The wrong way but I was another white colleague reposted picture that said only America can an ethnic group had black awareness month a black holiday black only colleges lack only dating sites black only bars and clubs and turn around and call everyone else racists. But these these are colleagues that you. Probably see every day. Yes. So. So it's difficult when you when you know people feel like that in your heart. is tough so even now. You know I see I, still speak to them and I still treatment the same because I was I was their supervisor. but it did make me feel some type of way. Yes and didn't make other on black officers some type of way. Absolutely. Can you truly protect and serve. You know the people. Where you work if that's how you truly feel. Do. You think Scott you've been able to make a difference. In policing. WHO Probably depends how you talked to me because. Some days you know. I try to help people every day And I help a lot of people. Get caused from Jill's imprisons all the time and and attorneys and prosecutors and victims and you know So. You know I I I look at individual The things. Where I've been able to help people in what way another and and I'll take those is wins but when I look at the overall. Career. And where we were at when not tame on the Department and where we're at now. It doesn't feel like a win. What's that feeling like? Crap. Makes you feel like it makes you feel like crap. I don't want to say. is been wasted. But? If. We have black officers having changed demise, a harvest of white officers. You know it just it just don't feel. Just don't feel like a win. So. Where do we go from here? Where do I go from here? I'm trying to get my Mojo back. But. I keep seeing the same stuff. You know. I haven't seen I. Haven't seen I haven't seen real change yet. But I'm GONNA retire now I'm GonNa go off into the sunset I hate to retire in a sense because. Who replaces me. Will will it be a? You know someone from our community So. The the real answer is. I don't know. I guess I'm still wondering and I don't I don't mean to Belabor this point but. You hear so much about. Recruiting more black officers as one of the solutions for reform and and I feel like this kind of call for diversity happens. Each time I mean when when Michael Brown was shot a big criticism was that the Ferguson Police Department? Didn't go home at night to Fergus and they went to their suburbs far away from Ferguson. They didn't actually live in the community they police. After the Dallas shootings, the five officers in Dallas were shot I remember that Dallas police chief said like if you want to change like we're hiring get off the protest line and come into Monet's department. Yeah. Yeah. It's true and is that true though is that is that the thank that will change. You get a flood of black police officers who are. Divided. From the white officers, then you have these two departments instead of this one department and that would limit the change those black officers could bring. That is that is very. Very. As a very tough question. I don't know I I don't I don't have a definitive answer for that, but I will say this. I just went to the park not too long ago. and I had a basketball brand new basketball that was around the sitting around my house buff my son. And I went to this won't park. And I'm like, you know what? I'M GONNA just go out there and just give me some shots up and just kick it with the people that I know you know and when I'm done, I'm let them keep this basketball. So when they have good games going on or whatever You know they'll have a really good basketball to us in. The the park basketball. But his little things like that. But that's just meet. ME. In A statement to the Times the city of Flint acknowledged that the police department had received complaints about facebook posts made by police officers. And said that each of the complaints was investigated and quote appropriately handled. The also noted that the department has recently launched a special recruitment effort. To hire more officers who are from Flint. The city has also hired a new chief of police terrence green who was himself born and raised in Flint. Green. Has said that addressing the morale of officers. Is among his first priorities coming into office. He begins his post tomorrow. Back. This podcast is supported by Qube. The streaming service with fresh original stories that unfold in minutes Kuby has been nominated for ten emmy awards including the Thriller Most Dangerous Game Starring. Liam. Hemsworth the piercingly funny comedy dummy starring in a Kendrick the topical and Intense Drama Free Race Sean starring Stefan James Laurence Fishburne and the shocking drama survive with Sophie Turner Watch shows like you've never seen told in minutes download now for your free two week trial. Here's what else you need. Over the weekend, a man affiliated with a right-wing group was shot and killed in Portland Oregon during A. Nation between supporters of president, trump and demonstrators protesting police brutality. The crew trump supporters had staged or that involved driving through downtown Portland where they clashed with protesters who have demonstrated there for months since the police killing of George Floyd. The man who was shot and killed who was wearing a hat with the insignia of Patriot prayer a far right group based in the Portland area that has clashed with protesters in the past. President trump who has repeatedly highlighted the unrest in Portland in his reelection campaign. said it was the latest evidence that democratic run cities are out of control. In a tweet defending his supporters, the president wrote quote the big backlash going on in Portland cannot be unexpected. In response, his Democratic rival Joe Biden, accused the president of quote recklessly encouraging violence off. It for the daily. I'm Michael. Barr. See Tomorrow. Would you pay one hundred dollars for a six pack of Beer? Could you as climate change disrupts global agriculture were approaching a future where everyday items including beer? We'll be far more expensive. Of course, beer will be the least of our problems. The economic consequences of Climate Change will make twenty twenty looks small in comparison. That's why fat tire Amber Ale is. Now America's first national carbon-neutral certified beer. It's a good start, but it's not enough learn more and take action to solve climate change at drink sustainably dot com.

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Ferguson: Five Years Later (A Takeaway Special Podcast)

The Takeaway

32:36 min | 1 year ago

Ferguson: Five Years Later (A Takeaway Special Podcast)

"The takeaway is supported by net suite by oracle the business management software and the world's number one cloud business system right now net suite is offering valuable insights with a free free guide seven key strategies to grow your profits at net sweet dot com slash takeaway. That's not sweet dot com slash takeaway ferguson five years later. This is a special takeaway podcast. I'm tenzing vega. We'll hear from a woman who says the events in ferguson made her and activists see so much progression used not so many people working to really make change but at the same how you'll see the city states of saying the cop was brought in to bring apiece to a community in pain bowls wanted to pull me to the signings for me was about walking in the middle of the road in bringing the two groups together as it some people asami as a traitor and the journalist who covered it. All it just really was this moment where you could feel the country tearing itself apart. It seems but at the same time i was welcomed by people who once you told them what you were trying to do. They were willing to speak and we start now. It's been five years since michael. Brown was shot and killed by police in ferguson missouri within days. Ferguson was flooded with reporters from all all across the world including me at the time. I was part of a new york times team. That was dispatched to the scene. I'll never forget driving onto west floor. Sin avenue were protesters gathered day and night and seeing armored trucks law enforcement dressed in fatigues and battlegear and being pelted with teargas. I can't forget the image mitch of people running through the thick clouds of smoke knocking on the door of the mcdonald's and trying to get something anything to porn there is just to calm the sting of the teargas wesley lowery of the washington post was there too but he stayed much longer spending four months on and off in ferguson covering what quickly became a national conversation for station on race and police brutality and wesley is with me now to talk about what he experienced and the role of media in shaping the aftermath of brown's death. He's a national correspondent for the washington post wesley. Welcome back to the show. Thanks so much for having me. Also with us is aaron morrison senior reporter for the appeal who spent time in ferguson ferguson six months later aaron. Thanks for being with us glad to be here. I remember the first time i saw anything about michael. Brown was on twitter and it was the photo of his body ready on canfield drive wesley. What was your first memory. When did you first hear about michael brown and from that point to being on the ground in ferguson bergersen. Tell us what happened there sure so it certainly was that first day august ninth the photo michael brown's body on the ground many of the tweets from from saint louis from ferguson that day at the time. I was in michigan covering a congressional race in suburban detroit but i was following the local coverage by the time i am. I got back to dc that following monday. There had been two or three nights of protest of anger still very few answered questions and by that evening i was on a plane to ferguson got there monday evening august eleventh aaron. You were a reporter in new jersey at the time. When did you hear about michael brown's death and what was the reaction where you were in communities outside of ferguson in new jersey the same way that most people learn about it i i saw it on social media and i was at a paper covering hyper local news and so i found a way to localize story okay what's happened here recently that people might be interested in revisiting as we're starting to have a new conversation about police brutality in this country. I got to ferguson wesley probably about a week after you were there and i was there for eight days so i don't wanna make this some sort of martyr thing that i did but i was sent out the new york times part of a larger new york times team and the first things as i recall are the heat driving right to a police press conference where you and other folks were there and this lingering tension in the air when you finally got to ferguson bergersen what were your feelings. Did you remember you gotta imagine in those of us who've been there are no right. Cancel drive is a set of apartment buildings. That's kind of down a side street. Read michael brown had been killed in the middle of the street his body laid out there for hours and she had hundreds of people who were looking out their window of their home and seeing the body body of teenager and no one was answering any questions for them and meanwhile every single night there were hundreds of people showing up in protest and so every every night you had the standoff between the citizens and the police and more nights than not it ended in chaos aaron when you got to ferguson. When did you get there and what were your first scenes like. What was this feeling like on the ground so i went to ferguson roughly six months after the first uprising and when i found things hadn't been completely covered up the quick trip was still fenced off and it was still burned. There were still signs of what had happened. What i'd only seen from faraway wesley. How were you received by the police and law enforcement more broadly and how were you you. What was your relationship like with protesters so i think that there was certainly among the police a frustration at the media. I think that a lot of the <hes> powers that be in greater st. louis just the police but a lot of the political establishment <hes> some of the statewide elected officials thought that the media and the national media were somehow the problem. The news is missing it. Nothing is true. This is all wrong. It's all made up right now. That is obviously wasn't the case that the national media came in and told a bunch stories of local residents that had not been being told otherwise and ultimately the department of justice concluded that these complaints of the demonstrators and the protesters were true true. There were correct that the police were stomach abusing people here in ferguson and saint louis county but the relationship with the police was extremely tense and frankly. It's supposed to be that way to some extent right. We're trying to get answers from our government but that said on many nights of the protests there were clear and obvious kind of first amendment violations journalists being arrested for trying to do their jobs being threatened. If you don't move this way we're gonna shoot tear gas at you. There was video footage of police officers disassembling ruling camera equipment or moving aggressively at members of the media the protesters also kind of had mixed feelings about the media and understandable right here. We had all come and shown up in this place and they were frustrated. Sometimes they thought the media coverage wasn't fair. They thought their quotes were being chopped and screwed and not used in fair ways or they thought we are missing the bigger story and so there were definitely moments of real tension. I think all of us who spend a lotta time there had had people who welcomed with open arms and other people who are like you guys should get the u._s. Should get out of here and aaron when you got there six months after. Was there a different feeling about you. Being a member of the press was where the police more open been were residents more open or was there wariness. I saw both of those things i saw. People who were tired of the dozens of news trucks trucks being parked everywhere but at the same time. I was welcomed by people who once you told them what you were trying to do what you were trying to uncover or what you were trying trying to amplify. They were willing to speak. They were willing to speak because they wanted to show multiple sides to their community. Everyone had seen and the unrest but few people had seen ferguson when it experienced some calm and so that's what i was able to to show as people prepared for the election as people were going around canvassing neighborhoods to to get you know votes for for the city council. I visit school where students and teachers were having conversations nations about what had taken place in their in their their city. There was a confirmation. I think that <hes> what had been reported by folks that were there early on in really was what it was like it. There was not some you know conspiracy by the media to make this <hes> you know a fake news moment in which which i was refreshing because i was like okay now. I'm going to build on what <hes> you know. My peers have already done here. You're both blackmail reporters. Did you feel that folks in ferguson. Were more likely to speak to you. Yes unquestionably <hes>. I thought that it wasn't even just being black. Reporter is also being a young black reporter that that many of the people in the streets we're young. People teenagers were college age students. Many of the young activists were in their early twenties. I was young black reporter in my early twenties. I think i think one of the things we know about being journalists. Upping reporters is that it's our job to talk to people and convince people to tell us things and it's about building relationships and each each one of us are who we are as a person our backgrounds our family trees and social connections help us build relationships. There are some doors that i might knock knock on that. I'll get them slammed in my face while another colleague will get it opened and vice versa and so as it became increasingly important that these stories of black americans since many of them poor or low income who had felt like they'd been abused by the police abuse by the government as that became one of the chief domestic storylines in the country it was it's extremely important that newsrooms employed people who could engender the trust of the folks closest to those stories and more often than not that was reporters who looked like the three of us right and i i could add to that i i experienced going to a church a black church where the pastor and told me up front like i've turned down so many reporters but at the moment i told him that my family was also in the church of god in christ he gave me access immediately to a member of his congregation who did still wanna speak about they are experiencing and not just their experience during the uprising but they're experienced since the eighties and the seventies in this community where this used to be a majority white community that flipped flipped and became a majority black community but the city government never became majority black and so there were all sorts of implications for police so that was my my way in was embracing family history and identity to gain access to be able to tell a story wesley just to wrap up have have we as the media gotten better at covering this topic and topics related to the killing of black and brown americans by police yes and no to the extent to which this topic is covering. Police involved shootings specifically. I think the answer is yes. I think that these cases showed showed why it's important for us to be skeptical of power and skeptical of government and not just believe everything police us but to the extent to which this issue is race in america. I think the ongoing coverage of the current president of his campaign of his rhetoric shows the extent to which the media still not completely equipped completely ready to tell these stories and a big part of that that is because we all love our colleagues love newsrooms but we know that our newsroom still not represented diversity and the complexity of the country that we cover that the vast majority of people writing these stories stories assigning these stories editing the audio directing the coverage are middle class white people and because of that our media collectively has a deep blindspot as it relates to issues of race and very often does not have the proper skepticism or the proper perspective on how issues of power issues of disparity the issues of injustice work and so there's still a long way to go but i'm really glad to have colleagues like you and erin who i know are working hard on this type of stuff to and will end on that note wesley. Lowery is the national national correspondent for the washington post and aaron. Morrison is senior reporter for the appeal thanks to you. Both thanks so much for having me. The the events in ferguson inspired a new generation of activist in the area including a who in a shea founder of four the culture s._t. L. a. network of black owned businesses in the saint louis area a who welcome to the takeaway. Thank you for having me. It was five years ago that <hes> michael michael brown was killed in ferguson. How did you first learn of his death. Well i grew up in jennings missouri which is right next door to ferguson and i was actually at my mom's house visiting her when i saw on twitter the pitcher where michael brown's stepfather was holding that said ferguson police department department just killed my seventeen year old son and from there the first night i watched on twitter as everything just unraveled in was is just exposed because i couldn't believe this was happening so close on a street that i walked almost every day growing up so from that that moment i think a lot of us remember that seeing those tweets and seeing the image of michael brown <hes> his body laying on canfield drive from at that moment. The protests began almost immediately. When did you start getting involved with those protests the the first night where the riding <hes> occurred. I was so mad at the community because that like i said that was the street that i grew up on that. Quick trip was where i got my guess almost every day. <hes> so the first night i went out with my sorority <hes> to clean up with forcing so as we were passing by the quick trip there was a group of people gathering. It was community. It was people talking about what had just taken place lays trying to get understanding figuring out next steps and i remember like just taking it all in and then hearing the sirens from so so many police cars and i was confused because i was like i haven't seen anything happen. I haven't heard anything so where are all these police cars going. Literally about twenty twenty police cars pulled up to the quick trip. Put on riot gear had therapists highs and was antagonizing the crowd pushing them into oh the street but if you were anybody watching from home on any mainstream knows what you saw playing was the recurring footage from from the looting and the fires from the night before so the truth wasn't out there and i'll have my background is videography and journalism so i feel like it was so important to record what was going on and put it on social media so from there. I decided to come out every single night that i could so show people what was really going on. You mentioned <hes> the police putting on a riot gear etc. Let's talk a little bit more about the police because one of the things that that struck me about the protests when i was there was seeing how heavily militarized <hes> the police presence was at one point there were even u._s. National guard there there were <hes> tanks and people wearing fatigues at least law enforcement wearing fatigues like how has that relationship relationship between law enforcement and the community evolved since ferguson. The thing about it is that it hasn't evolved <hes> law enforcement is still systematically racist. They are still abusing the african american community when we had our dr jason stockley protests in twenty seventeen. They were even worse than what they were in ferguson. If argument we did have a lot of tear gas and things like that but and twenty seventeen we saw a lot of kennelling <hes> which is when police surrounding people in protests and mass arresting everyone. We saw them abusing protesters that would arrest people in tear-gas. 'as the law enforcement here in saint louis is the exact same they were back in twenty fourteen owned the protest of had a ripple effect beyond ferguson and even saint louis and and they were a flashpoint in the black lives matter movement <hes> and even though that has begun focusing more on strategic policy change. I'm wondering have you noticed a change in terms of local politics or people running for city or state seats in missouri. We have had a lot of progression and black folks getting involved in in politics a year ago. We got wesley bill into office as a prosecuting attorney which originally was the position of bob mccullough. Who was the prosecuting attorney for the mike brown case. We also have kim gardner an office that is the prosecuting attorney in the city and both of these people have worked diligently to change and shift politics in saint louis county and city. We have a protest member who was now even sitting on the council board for ferguson itself so when we talk about change we have a lot more people getting involved that are doing big do things and policy and politics changes. I mean progress unless more than evitable for own you also work with the small business community in ferguson and one of the things i recall seeing on west larssen avenue. You mentioned the quick trip and getting gas from there. A lot of those businesses were boarded up for quite some time name. How are the businesses doing in the community today. Especially black owned businesses. What august ninth twenty fourteen day for a lot of black back folks was knowing that we had to now take care of ourselves so we have a lot more black businesses in our communities but we don't just have them in the traditional storefronts you see black businesses that are successful also social media awful websites like oetzi. We have mobile oh boutiques and mobile barber shop so what you see is this surge of black businesses. Which is where i started for the coach is teo dot com was to support short and bring lights at a businesses that are coming into our community and our for our community there been <hes> a number of ferguson activists activists who've died <hes> since <hes> these events do can you talk a little bit about that and and what you think about that or feel about that reflecting on the five years <hes> you think about the people i'm sorry you think about the people that you started this journey with and how many of them <hes> aren't with you anymore. <hes> we had darren sales who was really dear friend of mine <hes> who lost austin life he was shot in burned in his car and the police completely handled handle the crime scene real evidence there they left the car door they lift bully shells for people to touch on <hes> so so in ways you see so much progression on you see so many people working to really make change but at the same how you'll see the city stay the same you'll see the system itself worked very hard to keep marginalizing people marginalized to keeps systematic oppression real <hes> and they do this by showcasing us the most brutal ways they had. They will miss treat us <hes> how how that if things happen to us. They won't take care of your properly. <hes> and we have lost some real soldiers. Some real people who were for the community who will protest will put things together and it hurts. It hurts to reflect how far so many people we'll are an protests in moving the system forward but then many of them that didn't make it also. Thank you for sharing that with us. I know this is a difficult conversation to have <hes>. Do you feel based on what we just talked about do. Do you think that ferguson got a lot of attention. Five years ago protests were ongoing. All the media was there but do you think it did more for for the country and it's awareness to <hes> police brutality particularly directed at black americans than it actually did for the saint saint louis region. I feel like it did exactly what it was supposed to do. When ferguson happened it opened up up police brutality in saint louis in a world across america. We started learning people's names that have taken by police brutality. We started paying attention. We started remembering the number of people who lost their lives so we have a lot of attention here in saint louis and we know in a climate that we end trends come and go so the cameras may have left saint louis but the work never left st louis the people doing no work nevertheless saint louis so it benefited us and it benefited the world wrote like nationally because now we have to pay attention. Now people are coming together to create change. It's five years later in this issue is still being talked about how is still being worked on it still people that have dedicated their lives to breaking down systems in policing racism all of these thanks so it was something for not just saying lewis michael brown losing his life literally changed the world. We also have to take into account out that we aren't wanting just like policy changes because policy changes aren't enough. We need cultural changes so we we need. The police forces to want to really be different. Anything that we know about culture is that it's takes a lot of time time we often tom's wanna see progression right away and i would love it if that will be the way things worked but is not so we have to allow those those little wins that we have to be really big wins for us. We have to also practice patients in getting to the cultural change in cultural shift shift that we have to have in america to make this sustain itself own a shea is an activist and founder of four the culture s._t._l. A network of black owned businesses in the st louis region own. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for having me five days. After michael brown was killed by police officer in ferguson missouri police clashed with protesters in a display force that sparked other protests around the nation as the police response escalated missouri governor jay nixon put state highway patrol captain often ron johnson in charge of police operations in the embattled city for the weeks and months that followed. Here's a clip of conversation. I witnessed between johnson and a protester tester. Leave us. Don't leave us man said night. I'll tell me i am getting three to four hours. The hour for i'd get paid eight hours after eight hours. I am out here for free and i'm gonna tell you what i don't want to do and i'm not going to do. I'm not going to get sick. Wake up into more worth ron. Johnson has since retired and has written a book about his experiences in ferguson and he joins us via skype to discuss the protests and their impact five years later captain johnson. Welcome to the takeaway. Thank you for having me so when when you listen back to that clip and there's so many other moments <hes> tensions were high and your job was to calm the situation but there had been escalating conflict conflict and protesters for days. The national guard was posted right up the hill from where that interaction took place. What was that like for you. Personally will be we had a part of the community and growing up there and having walked those streets it was tough to see there was a feeling of duty or the placement but also feeling of pain as as a as a citizen of that community so those days were tough personally and professionally there was another element that came into play which was officer darren karen wilson and i'm going to play another clip from the interaction that we heard earlier actually where <hes> you're addressing this person who's asking you about how darren wilson specifically i could tell you. I was not involved in that investigation from my job here. Protect protect the livelihood hood distribution. I'm going to tell you the issue is not this is to help us. Citizen man these kids i agree with the oil dope has a foia captain johnson clearly a very tense moment and <hes> how do you weigh your job and at the time and trying to ease tensions between the community and police while at the same time dealing with that level of frustration dealing with that level of fear and really you know having tear gas and tanks in the background for me was ah to try to bring peace for the moment and bring a time where we can have a discussion. I did understand the frustration but my job there was to ensure that protesters had their rights and freedom of speech but also to protect them and protect those law enforcement officer. They're out there <hes> preserving urban road and so it becomes tough captain. There is a two thousand fifteen u._s. Justice department report on the events in ferguson and it said that many of those civilians zillions <hes> that you spoke to said that you actually had a positive impact on their relations with law enforcement but there were some officers who were interviewed who who said that they thought your efforts were detrimental because you appeared to support the demonstrators. What do you make of that. Will you know people saw me two different the lights that policeman saw me as as policemen were in the blue uniform that they wore people of color. Stop me as an african american both wanted to pull me to the side and and for me was about walking in the middle of the road in bringing the two groups together as people saw me as a trader i wouldn't take side you mean law enforcement and or the black community saw you as a traitor. Yes because people wanted me to take your side and it wasn't about what side had a saga august point for me. It was about bringing peace <hes> and a conversation conclusion that we must have become butter and as a result of that. I mean being being a black police officer in that environment. Did you feel like there was extra scrutiny on your actions <hes> because of that well i know there was but at that moment it didn't really matter. I didn't think about that daily. I'm a man i and all those other things. Come behind. You know nope been african-american second and then i'm a father. I'm a son of a friend but i'm a lot of things and so been a policeman was actually down on on the ladder for me because a lot of things before i put that uniform all and so i just stood out there as a man and i wanted people to see me and says man and not dr based on the color of my skin are the title that had it's been five years since michael brown's death. What in your opinion opinion has or hasn't changed in ferguson since then. I have seen some growth in ferguson now. We're planning on putting sidewalks along west floors in which sounds so simple but the citizens talked about the safety of just walking on the street. Some people would say some things have gotten better. Some people would say that things are still say that after after five years <hes> they would've thought we've would have been further into that point. I wonder <hes> as we look back and look up to today in terms of police accountability just in ferguson but also beyond i mean i'm talking to you from new york. City where eric garner <hes> was killed just days before michael brown <hes> were waiting to see whether or not <hes> this the officer who was involved in that killing will actually be fired from his position captain in your experience given everything that we've just said have police departments involved in light of these events i i think it's some aspects placing has gotten better but i think it appears to ask if we would base things off of what happened in el paso and ohio when you know the carriage and a rookie episodes law enforcement officers there be judged by that every day our relationship would be outstanding but i think relationship arm based on aerobics based on what we do each and every day and we have to continue to connect in ways that include all in here the voice. It's not tell people what they need. Ask them what they want from us captured. Is there a moment. I'm sure there are many moments but is there anything in particular that has stuck stuck with you. Throughout these five years i think i always look back to the time when i was face to face with <hes> like a brown <music> juniors mom and dad and then as a moment that i will never forget and so it sticks with me that no matter what anyone thinks of that day august ninth no pressure should ever suffer that kind of pain and is there anything that you would have done differently. If you could go back. I would have told those two that. I was sorry lot sooner than i did and i think that that was a failure on law offers but in this community <hes> should have been done a lot sooner i've been speaking with former missouri highway patrol well captain ron johnson about his reflections on the twenty fourteen protests in ferguson captain. Johnson has also written a book about his time running. Police operations is there and that's called thirteen days in ferguson captain johnson. Thank you for taking the time and for joining us on the takeaway. Thank you very much. It was an honor. Thank you for listening to our coverage of ferguson in five years later big thanks to producers josh christianson danny lewis isabel angel alexandra not for their work on this along with the producers paalea room goo and make dalton. Jake howard is our director and sound designer with an assist from engineer claire mccain. I'm tansy vega. This is the takeaway <music> and.

ferguson michael brown ferguson ferguson michael michael brown reporter aaron morrison ferguson officer missouri ferguson missouri captain johnson saint louis new york ferguson bergersen saint louis america wesley lowery
Ep. 837 - Is There An Epstein Conspiracy?

The Ben Shapiro Show

55:01 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 837 - Is There An Epstein Conspiracy?

"Jeffrey epstein commit suicide within days of being taken off suicide. Watch conspiracy theorists including the president jump on board and democrats launched them conspiracies of their own. I'm ben shapiro this. This is the ben shapiro show we apologize for the slight delay and bring you today's show i had to to forcibly take over andrew klavan studio and expel him physically from that studio. The good news is i own the studios. There's nothing he can do about that. We'll get to the news in just one second. I you may have notice that. The economy seems like it's on the brink of something there are banks today bank of america suggesting there's a one in three chance of recession. There's a lot of geopolitical tension ranging from iran to china. Obviously tariffs tariffs are impacting the markets in a heavy way. This might be a good time for you diversify into gold. Can you afford another hit to your retirement the last downturn when the s._n._p. Dropped fifty percent now yeah. 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It's a comprehensive sixteen page kit chose her golden silver can protect your savings text ben my name to forty seven forty seven forty seven to get that no cost no obligation kit again text ben to forty thirty seven forty-seven forty-seven get in touch with the folks over bridge gold. Ask all your questions. They're good people. I know them. Check them out. Birch gold dot com and check them out text ben my name to forty seven seven forty seven forty seven okay so obviously the big news on this monday morning is the death of jeffrey epstein jeffrey epstein of course the convicted pedophile who's recently rearrested on federal charges of sex trafficking. There's a lot of worry in the nation's highest corridors of power about what exactly jeffrey epstein might say in fact just on friday friday. There was a federal court that unsealed documents from a lawsuit by one of jeffrey epstein's accuser against his mysterious girlfriends and alleged procure. She's lane match well so the accuser name is virginia jufri accused maxwell of procuring young girls for sexual abuse by epstein and his powerful friends according to the daily beast some of the major revelations include in two thousand sixteen jew free said that maxwell specifically instructed her to serve former new governor new mexico governor bill richardson who at one point it was a front running democratic presidential candidate britain's prince andrew wealthy financier glenn juban former senate majority leader george mitchell modeling scout john luke brunell and scientists scientists marvin mincy jufri also said that maxwell and epstein directed her to have sex with another prince a foreign president a well-known prime minister and the owner of a large hotel hotel chain. None of the men named been charged with a crime and all have denied inappropriate behavior. Apparently they're also accusations. According to another one of the another one of the women who dealt with epstein that epstein was basically sexually voracious and thus preyed on girls at an insane rate ju one leslie epstein gene for former house manager testified he saw probably over a hundred girls serve epstein at his palm beach home over ten years after each encounter. He said he would clean up the homes upstairs at massage room on multiple occasions. He said he found sex toys and put them in maxwell's closet because he knew that's where they kept such items along with the shiny black costume. This is all really disgusting testing obviously and these revelations came as of friday so there are a lot of there's a lot of talk about whose name was going to drop next. What were the next steps in the epstein. Trial within twenty four hours of all of that dropping jeffrey epstein allegedly committed suicide and apparently committed suicide. He was just eleven days removed. Ooh from being on suicide watch according to news epstein who is facing federal sex trafficking charges died saturday from an apparent suicide federal officials said the federal bureau of prisons prisons said in a statement the f._b._i. Was investigating his death. Epstein was sixty six was found unresponsive in his cell at a holding facility in new york city at around six thirty am according to the statement staff at the metropolitan correctional center tried to revive him. He was eventually taken to a hospital where he was pronounced dead. The new york city medical examiner's office was also awesome investigating epsteins cause of death a spokesperson told c._b._s. News and will conduct an autopsy and toxicology tests to determine the cause a statement put out by the medical examiner's. There's office saying they were still going to determine cause of death. That doesn't mean they suspect homicide. It means they still have to finally determined causes of death although they think they know what happened here federal prosecutors in new york alleged epstein abused dozens of underage girls as young as fourteen epstein was found injured on the floor of his cell in late july at the time law enforcement sources told c._b._s. News that epstein osteen was found semi-conscious with slight bruising around his neck. Apparently he tried to hang himself at that juncture and he was put on suicide. Watch so there's all sorts sort of of weird stuff surrounding this particular suicide. It's leading a lot of people toward conspiracy theories. The chief medical examiner dr barbara samson released a statement on sunday a saying that her office had conducted an autopsy on epstein but at the medical examiner's determination is pending further information at this time. She said this is routine. Should i allowed a private. I have a pathologist to observe the autopsy which routine my office defers to the involved law enforcement agencies regarding other investigations around this death. A a lot of epstein's victims are upset because they felt like this was their chance at justice attorney general william barr says the investigation will continue their associates and co conspirators with epstein stein who will in fact beyond the hook for whatever crimes they committed so this thing's not end with epstein being dead this sex trafficking case ace was very important to the department of justice and to me personally but let me assure you that this case will continue and you wan against anyone who was complicit with epstein any co conspirators should not rest easy the victims deserve justice and they will get so the conspiracy chatter picked up almost immediately you had dueling hashtags on twitter that we're trending and one was trump body counts and the other clinton body how thurbers accusations by the right that clinton body count wasn't trending because twitter is biased left. Certainly twitter is biased left. I don't know why that wasn't trending. The fact is this was neither trump nor clinton by all available evidence but you saw that implication for by a variety of sources. M._s._n._b._c.'s joy reid actually suggested that attorney general william bar might be covering epstein's death at trump's behest because trump of course is friends with jeffrey epstein. The investigation of epstein's death now now falls into the hands of william bar. Donald trump's can sigli area and attorney general who refused to recuse himself on the epstein case case despite his association with law firm involved with epstein whose father once hired jeffrey epstein as a teacher with neither experience. It's not agree and who's prime. Directive is to protect donald trump no matter what okay so there. She is putting her own conspiracy theory then president trump in his own imitable fashion undecided. You know it'd be a great idea. I'm gonna read whatever i feel like and i feel like retweeting a wild conspiracy theory so he re tweeted a tweet from a guy named terrance williams on on twitter and the tweet says died of suicide on twenty four seven suicide watch yeah right. How does that happen. Hashtag jeffrey epstein had information on bill clinton and now he's dead. I see trump body count trending but we know who did this re tweet. If you're not surprised hashtag epstein suicide hashtag clinton body count hashtag clinton crime and family and then he released a little video discussing why he thought that the clintons had murdered jeffrey epstein now this has been a longstanding meemaw on the right is that the clintons routinely murder their political opponents. Not a lot of evidence is to suggest that that is true despite widespread speculation about characters including vince foster for example it president trump tweeted that out and that was awkward. Here's a little bit terrance williams video in which he talks about all of us <hes> shaking my head. I'm not surprised i told john last month this go happy but did not body wanna listen to me but then guess what next month he did and you know what all the liberals were calling me a conspiracy theory santa santa terrorists you come out with crazy conspiracies and you need to be banned from twitter and then guess what the man really end up dead and you know what he had he had information on the clintons in a man for that so trump actually re tweeted that trump actually read tweeted that now number one. This wasn't the clintons okay as we will see. This is wild incompetence by jail officers which frankly is not all that uncommon. I mean it is it is unfortunate truth of life. The human beings are wildly incompetent generally and is also also another unfortunate truth that treatment in american prisons. It depends on the prison but many prisons are horribly run. The guards don't do their jobs to the apex of their abilities. They feel like they're dealing with criminals and therefore they sort of slack off a bit. That's not an indictment of all prison officers by any measure a lot of prison officers probably vast majority of prison officers do their job with honor and diligence but what they're going to be some who do not obviously and this one falls under hand hand lund's razor never attributed to malevolence that which you can attribute to human stupidity and well. This looks very suspicious because obviously epstein was the most watched federal prisoner in america still. I am much more inclined to chalk this up to prison guards. I didn't do their job than bill and hillary. Clinton sneaked somebody into jeffrey. Epstein sell to kill him in his cell. I mean the lady couldn't even find wisconsin on a map yep i. I don't think that this has to do with hillary clinton and bill clinton deciding that it's time for jeffrey epstein to be off. Why wouldn't they often before he was arrested. I mean the whole thing doesn't make any sense and as it turns out there's lots of evidence of incompetence here apparently according to the associated press guards on jeffrey epstein's unit were working extreme overtime shifts to make up for staffing shortages the morning of his appearance suicide a person familiar with the jails operations told the associated press the person said that the metropolitan correctional centres special housing unit was staffed with one guard working a fifth straight day of overtime and another who's working mandatory overtime the person wasn't authorized to discuss jail operations publicly spoke sunday on the condition of anonymity an annuity epsteins abrupt short criminal prosecution that could have pulled back the curtain on the inner workings of a high-flying financier with connections to celebrities and presidents the jail staff staff followed a failed to follow protocols leading up to epstein's death according to a report from the new york times deepening the fallout from what led to his apparent suicide the new york times reports report that epstein was supposed to have been checked by two guards in the protective housing unit every thirty minutes he was alone sell just eleven days after he'd been taken off suicide watch that was not supposed post to happen. He was supposed to have somebody else in the cell with him. The procedure of him being checked every thirty minutes was not followed that night because epstein may have tried tried to commit suicide three weeks earlier obviously that other inmate was supposed to be in there but the jail recently transferred to cellmate and allowed epstein to be housed alone decision that also violated the jails procedures gers attorney general william burroughs fighting about that today as well. He suggested that there could be prosecution on the table for negligence for some of the people who are associated with all of this in addition according to the daily mail every fifteen minutes guards are required to make another check on prisoners weren't suicide. Watch the decision to remove epstein in from suicide. Watch has baffled for awards and veterans of the federal prison system alike as matt walsh of daily wire pointed out suicide. Watch is not supposed to be taken quite so literally early. You're not actually supposed to watch while the person commit suicide so well done. Everybody involved now. It's trump's tweet. That's getting all the attention today. It is president trump tweeting out a conspiracy received theory. That's getting all the attention we'll get to that. In just one moment. Also i wanted to discuss what is generally people tend to buy conspiracy theories. Even though conspiracy theories rarely ended up being true. We'll get to that in just one moment. I these jailers. They had one job one job and they failed to do it. Well here daily wire fire. Everybody has a job and they have to do their job if they don't do their job than we can quickly and easily replace them with ziprecruiter dot com or we can just find new people to bring on board which we are doing right now. Actually actually if you're looking for a job checkout daily wear dot com slash careers and check out our job listings over at ziprecruiter. 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Ziprecruiter dot com slash daily wire wants more ziprecruiter dot com slash daily wear higher the way we to here at the daily wire we have lots of great employees you can to ziprecruiter dot com slash daily wire so why do so many people buy into conspiracy theories like this. Is there really a couple of reasons. One is that social media tends to amplify conspiracy theories these days. It's very easy to re tweet. It's very easy for jokes to go viral and then people to take take them seriously social media tends to take pockets of fringe opinion and if there are many pockets out there a french opinion then sort of guam rates them into one giant fringe opinion that starts to look more and more mainstream less and less fringe. This is what has happened in pretty much every area of american life with fringy opinion ranging from white supremacism to conspiracy theorizing being used to be that you're the weirdo in your town. You're on your own now. You're the weirdo in your town. You can hang out with every weirdo online and then you can form these kind of giant blocks of people who believe in crazy stuff part of the rise of conspiracy theories also has to do with generalized distrust of the media as you will get to the media only seems skeptical of certain types of conspiracy theories other types of conspiracy theories. The are totally on board with most of this has to do with the human ability to accept widespread incompetence so as i say it is very difficult to accept incompetence. It's much easier to simply understand that or a belief that people aren't various that people are in control. One of the harder revelations relations in life as we become adults is recognizing that most people are just as incompetent as they were when they were seven years old and picking their burgers eating them. They're just adults now so now they're incompetent. They get paid and you hope that their competence isn't so off the charts that it actually harms somebody. People get more often than you think going back to the media for a moment. The media were all over trump up for re tweeting the conspiracy theory and that's fair. I mean it's wild. The president of the united states is re tweeting conspiracy theories about his lead political opponents the clintons in two thousand sixteen murdering somebody in federal custody. I mean i would say that. I'm surprised except that he accused ted cruz his father of murdering j._f._k. So i think we've been here right and this is. This is the part where i remind everybody that it's all baked into the cake with president trump. This is the part where i remind everybody that there's nothing new here case for everyone. Who's expecting his approval rating to plummet. No we had no expectations. There were no expectations that trump would not retreat something like this. Does that make it right now. It's still wrong still presidential. It's still ridiculous and the president and deserves all the scrutiny that he's getting from everybody. Scrutiny is getting its really gross. It's disgusting. It's morally reprehensible for the president to tweet without any evidence i mean he is the president of the united states. It's tweet without evidence that somebody on the other side is responsible for a murder or maybe a responsible for murder. If barack obama had done it then we would all be up in arms on the right now now. The reason that we're not quite as up in arms about trump as we are about obama isn't just because trump is a republican. It's also because as i've said before trump is not as serious. A human being is barack. Obama is an anybody who says take trump as seriously as they take obama is lying to you and there's people in your life. You don't take all that seriously often consistent basis. Donald trump is one of those people barack. Iraq obama was much more planned obama had dropped a line like this you would have assumed it was part of a broader scheme. If trump does something like this you just assume that his took over from moment then he hit the tweet button gordon. Everybody has sort of baked that in with regarded from nonetheless trump earning the disdain of the media for this is not unfitting. Here's george stephanopoulos over a._b._c. News suggesting that it is stunning to insinuate that clinton was complicit in the epstein suicide. You mentioned the conspiracy us. Turn is investigating also a lot of conspiracy theories on line nine one propagated by president trump himself. He re tweeted a tweet that seemed to suggest that bill clinton was somehow complicit in the death of jeffrey epstein <hes> i shouldn't go without remarking kind of stunning that depressing united states is accusing his predecessor one of his predecessors of complicity in murder and the fact is thomas. You spend a lotta time looking at the jeffrey epstein case he had relationships both with bill clinton and donald trump okay so again. It's not wrong for the media to criticize president trump for all of this cory booker then put his angry is and he says this is dangerous. It's dangerous very angry. I'm so angry when mr potato head busting and through that while like kool aid man here we go. This is just more recklessness what he's doing dangerous. He's giving lice to not just conspiracy theories but really whipping people up into anger and worse against a different people in this country and so this is a tired way that the president does he's been using using the clintons as a means for a lot of his false accusations but remember this is a nation row where we've seen <hes> just horror orrick acts whether it's someone walking into a pizza shop based upon these kind of conspiracy theories to take violent action conspiracy theories are dangerous. They are dangerous hers because again they suggest that there is somebody who is nefarious behind the scenes manipulating everything and if you took that person out then you'd end the conspiracy it's all three days of the condor and there's somebody who's hiding behind that curtain at the end of the story if you just take out that person than the entire conspiracy collapses like a house of cards. That's the other thing about conspiracies is that there seems to be an easy easy solution. Which is you take out. The person who's at the head of the conspiracy but one of the reasons that people are suspicious of the media one of the reasons that conspiracy theories are running roughshod particularly early on the right these days and i think it is more on the right than it is on. The left is because conspiracy theories unless they are actually mainstream on the right. There are conspiracy theories and they tend to be fringy n._j._i._t. Moving over into the mainstream people react to the left on the left stuff that is considered basically untouchable are conspiracy theories mean the left will say open things that are conspiratorial tori will they will they will put out their absolute conspiracy nonsense that is unsupported by evidence and left will simply accept it. It's not counted as a conspiracy theory in other words. Now we can all point to the epstein suicide and when somebody says it was trump it was clinton. We can say that that's silly. That's conspiracy theory but the left will put out their stories that are obviously untrue through and that are in fact conspiracy theories and the press will treat them as though they are perfectly legit. They let me give you an example so over the weekend m._s._n._b._c. n._b._c. Releases a documentary about stacey abrams stacey abrams the democrat in georgia georgia state legislator who ran for governor and lost by some fifty thousand votes. She's been going around for literally months. Ever since she lost brian kemp the actual governor of georgia should be going around for months and suggesting that nefarious scheme was perpetrated by brian kemp and the republicans and that she actually is the governor now. There is no evidence that she wins that election none. She lost by fifty thousand votes. It's not a close election. There's a lot more evidence than in past cases like the washington state gubernatorial election circa two thousand six that there was some voter interference or that the actual senator from minnesota and the al franken norm coleman election was norm coleman those very close elections where manipulation of a few votes could have changed change the outcome of the election but when you lose by fifty thousand votes you lost the election. Stacey abrams lost the election. It is become an article of faith on the left that stacey abrams was legitimately elected governor of georgia georgia and that brian comes stole that election that is a conspiracy theory it is not supported by evidence and yet it will be put perpetuated by entire swaths of the media and the democratic establishment. I want so for example katie. Tour and m._s._n._b._c. asks tasty abrahams quote. Do you think the vote was stolen from you. The election was stolen from you and abrahams tmz replied. I think the election was stolen from the people of georgia. I don't know that empirically. I would've won but if you add together the thousands of people who faced extraordinarily long lines who faced hurdles that should not happen in democracy the votes that we know we're not counted the secretary of state who's also my opponents in the race person more than one point four million voters over basically an eight year period now. She's still not naming. The voters who wanted to vote weren't able to vote being in a long line does not prohibit you from voting by the way that's just called the long line. Turn noted that comes so-called purchase just were legal and we're enforcement of law passed by george democrats who dominated state politics for more than a century after the civil war registered voters who don't vote update the registration and information file a name or address change sign a petition respond to attempts to confirm their address for three years are moved to inactive status but can still participate in elections according to the atlanta journal journal constitution and the washington free beacon if they are inactive or don't respond to election officials for another two election cycles removed from the rolls oftentimes the voters have moved out out of the state or died abrahams said they knew people had been purged from the roles who didn't meet the criteria but didn't elaborate how she knew or who these people were. She claims that fifty three thousand voters we're put on hold by camp to prevent them from voting during the race and that's deceptive it is simply not true nonetheless abrahams continues to maintain this and she supported in this by figures ranging from other democratic presidential candidates to columnists like jim no buoy people who continue to suggest that stacey abrams is legitimately the governor of of of georgia. Can that's conspiracy theory and yet. It's not treated as a conspiracy theory. It's just treated as a theory. It's street is a normal theory. Everyday politics the old enough to remember when people were suggesting that from lost the two thousand sixteen election he would suggest that he had that he had wrongly lost and that he actually one and then we spent two two years with the democrats perpetuating another conspiracy theory which is that the russians were behind trump selection that if it weren't for russian interference in the election from would've won and that trump trump in the russians were actively colluding with one another in order to move the election out of hillary clinton's column that turned out not to be true either to two years and what twelve million dollars to investigate that particular conspiracy theory but it's not a conspiracy theory according to the left according to the left trump still did collude trump is still a traitor and we should impeach him for this. This is the point i'm making generally speaking conspiracy. Theories from the left are treated as extraordinarily mainstream conspiracy theories on the right are fringe and and then they gained some momentum and it doesn't help when donald trump lends his way to them whether you're talking about birtherism or whether you're talking about what just happened with jeffrey epstein but when when it's on the left is not treated as a conspiracy theory. It's treated as something completely normal. I'll give you another example. That happened over the weekend completely ignored by the media in every conceivable way get to to that in just one second. I let me tell you about sleeping comfortably so you spend a lot of time trying to sleep and maybe toss and turn and you have a nice mattress raymond. You've got your helixsleep mattress. Got a nice mattress but you're still not sleeping properly well. It's probably not because the mattress anymore. 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Okay so speaking of other conspiracy theories that are going to be completely ignored completely and wildly wildly ignored by the media over the weekend was the five year anniversary of the ferguson incident involving mike ferguson missouri involving michael brown michael brown was an eighteen year old very large dude black guy who according to the media reports at the time supposedly was murdered in cold blood led by a white police officer named darren wilson and that was done out of racial hatred because the police force in ferguson was deeply racist and michael brown was in fact surrendering at the time and this this is how you end up with famous pictures on the news of people like sally kohn and other commentators raising their hands and saying hands up don't shoot and the idea was were. I can't breathe these. The eric garner slogan but hands up don't shoot was was what this became you had n._f._l. Players in saint louis running out onto the field raising their hands hands up. Don't shoot because black people were surrendering to police police and the police saying there's a black guy would shoot the guy down and michael. Michael brown was used as the case in point of this well as it turns out. That's how it happened. At all michael brown had earlier in the day gone to a store a convenience store and he had stolen some swisher sweets which are very often used in the the cigars there are often used in the tobacco is removed. Marijuana is put in that's beside the point is drug. Use really isn't the issue here and michael brown assaulted the store owner and then walked walked out darren wilson the cop was driving around town and he got some news that criminal activity had been taking place he saw michael brown walking radically with his friend dorian johnson down the street and he told them to pull over they refused to pull over he kind of pulled in front of them so they pulled over at which point according to witness testimony and physical evidence michael brown walked walked up to the side of the car punched during wilson in the face tried to grab during wilson's gun. The gun went off in the car. Darren wilson got out of the car. He told michael brown to stop round was running away brown then turned around and charged at the officer. There's according to witness. Testimony and those witnesses were black. This is not a race thing testimony and physical evidence evidence. Dorian johnson friend lied to the press. He said that he had he had turned around hit said hands up don't shoot and that he was actually shot in the back by the police officer. The police officer shot in the back as it turns out the wound pattern on michael brown show on his body showed that he was shot not only from the front but approaching that wilson was shooting at him as brand is running at him embryos a very very large man he's eighteen years old and very very large dude so that's not just what was found by the grand jury in the ferguson missouri case which touched off riding in ferguson egged on by the president of the united states who suggested that perhaps the grand jury had come to the wrong conclusion and that people weren't making up stories like this when this was in fact a made up story by dorian rian johnson d._o._j. Did a full scale investigation barack obama's own department justice at a full-scale investigation of the michael brown situation and came to the conclusion collusion that in fact it was not a racial shooting in fact it was a justifiable homicide meaning that wilson shot in self defense. He did what he was supposed to do and that is what the obama obama d._o._j. Found there's a full report on all of this year the grand jury report and then you had the and then you had the barack obama d._o._j. Report none of these reports found that michael brown was murdered. Conundrum hate is an ongoing conspiracy theory to suggest the michael brown was murdered for racial reasons in cold blood. All the evidence is against this including witness evidence from from the town and if you actually read the witness testimony it's heartbreaking in that particular case one through this at the time in detail. The testimony in the case was devastating because a lot of the witnesses. Mrs said that they'd been threatened by members of their community for even coming forward and testifying and then when the police tried to investigate people would hide from the police because they didn't want the blow back from members of their own community okay so with all of that as backdrop. Here's what happened over the weekend. His over the weekend is the five year anniversary of ferguson and as i say dorian johnson the original witness was lying being by all available evidence and it's clear from the media coverage by the way that he is lying still so the washington post helps perpetuate this lie they story during johnson and witness to the ferguson shooting sticks by his story is by wesley lowery who is one of the reporters on scene. Ferguson did a lot of reporting from there at the time said michael brown was still lying dead in the street when his family gathered in the kitchen of a nearby apartment here from dorian johnson the friend who saw what happened through thick tears johnson recounted how he and brown eighteen had encountered ferguson ferguson police officer darren wilson and wilson pumped half a dozen bullets into brown's body when johnson finished brown's family had one request. Tell the media and so minutes later trembling johnson was staring during into a local t._v. News camera uttering the words that would change both the nation and his life he put his hands in the air johnson set of brown his final moments he started to get down but the officers still l. approached with his weapon drawn and fired several more shots and my friend died the killing of michael brown on august ninth. Two thousand fourteen became one of the most incendiary events in american eric in history spawning that moves pointing the black lives matter movement most powerful rallying cry hands up. Don't shoot ultimately to separate law. Enforcement investigations concluded noted that brown did not have his hands in the air when wilson opened fire but controversy over johnson's account ranged raged for months his so now johnson is speaking out again again. Here's what johnson says and it's obvious from the statement that he was lying in his first statement. Here's what he said quote. His hands were definitely up when he turned around whether his hands were up or halfway up or fully down or up. He was killed and he was unarmed. He wasn't posing a threat so into sentences. He denies his original account his hands. We're definitely up whether his hands were up halfway down fully down or up. He was killed and he was unarmed. He wasn't posing threat except for witness testimony except for lord forensic evidence. All of that is true. Okay so dorian johnson's still telling this tale as we'll see democratic candidates presidential candidates perpetuated conspiracy theory over the weekend and didn't care not only didn't the media not care they saw it as a sign of moral truth indecency that these democratic candidates decided to purvey this conspiracy theory. Sorry we'll get to that in just one second first. Let's talk about that. Cell phone plan so your cell phone plan your belt. It's notoriously confusing. We all know it's impossible to know what exactly exactly. You're paying for those tiny hidden fees. They're not so tiny when you add them up. No more what you need is meant mobile mobile provides the same premium network coverage you're used to but at a fraction of the cost men mobile makes it easy to cut your wireless bill downs. Just fifteen bucks a month. 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You just need mobile mobile dot com slash man okay in just a second. We're going to get democratic presidential candidates perpetuating conspiracy theories stories and yes. This has impact. Yes this has effect in the real world but first you have to go over the daily wire dot com and subscribe when you subscribe not only. Did you get all the goodies for nine nine dollars year. You get everything including backstage access. You get you get this. The very greatest beverage vessels left cheers tumbler. You get all of our sunday specials on on saturday. Get all sorts of wonderful wonderful goody not only do you do that. You also support us. I mean let's be real about this. The reason to subscribe is that we can continue bringing you. The content you love. The fact is the left left would love to d platform. This show just like they would love to the platform. Most right wing shows most conservative shows. 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I saw in the media asked about this not one not one so very properly questions asked about trump talking about jeffrey epstein's means death in all of this but it is somewhat newsworthy democratic presidential candidates are just spouting absolute debunked wise debunked by barack obama's d._o._j. Led by eric holder about michael brown's elizabeth warren who's pandering for black votes. She tweets out five years ago. Michael brown was murdered by a white police officer in ferguson missouri. Michael was unarmed yet. He was shot six times. I stand with activists and organizers who continue the fight for justice for michael. We must confront systemic racism and police violence head on virtually every word of this is a brutal why there's no evidence that he was murdered. Burger has a very specific meaning. He was an armed. He was charging. A police officer at the time already tried to grab grabbed. The police officers gun by forensic evidence. If the gun went off in the car witnesses say that brown was inside the car had put his head inside the car and his hand inside the car it was with warren tweeting out absolute crap conspiracy theory nonsense and i guess the conspiracy theory would have to include that obama d._o._j. Differently kamala harris did the same thing when she's not locking people up. She is apparently trying to justify somebody charging a police officer. She tweeted out michael brown's murder again. That's a very specific word. Murder forever changed ferguson in america. His tragic death sparked a desperately needed conversation and a nationwide movement. We must fight for stronger accountability and racial equity in our justice system. That's two front running. Democratic candidates who are engaged in open conspiracy theory suggesting that michael brown was not kill justifiably as per to law enforcement investigations and a grand injury investigation. No he was shot. He was murdered. He was murdered. Beta aurora says five years ago michael brown was shot dead by police officer in the years since we've heard too many names to many similar stories to count in each reminded of an idea as urgent as ignored today as it was when michael was killed black lives matter again you wanna use examples of black folks getting getting shot on justifiably. There's a case in south carolina of that happening. Philander castille was shot wrongly in his car by by a blues an asian police officer. Michael brown is a horrible example. When you engage in the michael brown mythology you're in fact engaging a conspiracy theory and this does have real world effects. The real world effects include continued failures in exactly the areas that need more police officers not fewer police officers the fact that there are so many people on the left who don't actually really seem to care about what people in the crime ridden areas need and yes. Many of those areas are minority areas where there's high tension with police. You know what you need. Lower crime rates in those areas okay this is it is wildly an insanely ridiculous that the democrats democrats continue to push the notion that police departments are actually the the enemy when it comes to the inner city communities unity's that actually do require people to to police those communities. You need lower crime rates if you actually want to who have a safer america if you want these areas to be for you need to build trust with the police you need to stop accusing every police officer of being murder even when they are not a murderer you need to start recognizing that in order to build credibility between police officers and communities. You need to stop implying that every police officer is a murderer when he's not a murderer. There's a conspiracy of silence at the top levels of law enforcement then place like baltimore. The majority of the police force is minority where the police chief is black that police department is out to get black folks ferguson. You've seen a radical turnover of the ferguson police department a ferguson police department has become much much more minority. The reason it wasn't as minority before is because they were having trouble finding applicants frankly a right now. According to the new york times more than half a ferguson city council members and police officers are now black but guess that's what that hasn't changed the conditions on the ground in ferguson nor has it changed the attitude of many citizens store police because when you keep perpetuating the myth that police officers are generally out to get black people it turns out that has real world effects. There's this article in the new york times. It is called. He's a veteran of upheaval molded by ferguson's traumas. He's seven and it's a profile of of a kid named david morrison whose seven years old it says david morrison carries the scars of ferguson's up people a veteran protester fled gunshots and tear-gas marched with signs play dead on the asphalting years of activism that unschooled after white police officer killed an unarmed black teenager named michael brown. I'm so angry. He shouts his seven years old so you telling me that he's had run-ins with police officers. He seven it or is it that his mom has taken him to a lot of protests backed by presumably these sorts of presidential candidates in the article makes clear it is the ladder as the article makes clear his mother was taking him to protest from the time that he was like to david's mother got involved in a citizen journalism project after the shooting of michael brown and took david along to protest when he was a preschooler but one night after she had scooped david into her arms race orkar when gunfire erupted she began to notice the toll he jolts awake from nightmares on the living room couch where he often sleeps. Then cracks open her bedroom door to reassure himself. She's she's still there. David and his mother were driving on a summer afternoon when the conversation turned as it often doesn't ferguson to race an injustice david piped up from the backseat. I can fight the police. No you can't yes. I will david. His mother said you're going to end up dead. If you do that quit using your imagination. It's time to use reality a seven year. Olds don't generally say they can fight. The police are told by their relatives that they should fight the police. The police are the bad guys. Does it help when you have national political figures lying being and saying that a police officer who did not murder a black man murdered a black man is that hopeful a detailed federal view cleared officer wilson of any civil rights violations and largely supported the officer's version of the story investigators concluded officer wilson had confronted mr brown in connection with the theft at a nearby convenience store then the report court found brown attacked wilson while the officer receded s._u._v. and struggled for control of his after a brief chase on canfield drive. The report said brown was moving toward officer wilson on the street when he was fatally fatally shot a after the shooting ferguson officials entered into a contentious agreement with the justice department promising to overhaul its core process make new guidelines for stops in searches riches. Give police officers more training require them to wear body cameras progress has been agonizingly slow and as it turns out crime rates jumped in the aftermath of ferguson not the opposite who did that hurt law abiding citizens in places like ferguson. There's an article by just enhance furred whose law professor in the new york times over the weekend. He's at howard university school school of law and executive director of the thurgood marshall civil rights under and this columnist says five years after ferguson. We're losing the fight against police violence well. Let's make something something clear. After ferguson crime rates spiked due to something that heather mcdonald correctly called the ferguson effect police officers of whom i know many not not wanting to go into situations in which they could be dragged up on charges for simply doing their job the way the german wilson was it turns out this law professor. What exactly does he think is the solution to all of this. He thinks the solution isn't more police unless crime he thinks that solution is to end policing and prisons altogether altogether quote in the five years since the uprising ferguson activists have shifted from a demand to stop killing us to calls for broader civil rights and human rights standards and appeals for the ultimate structural change an abolitionist ethic that seeks to end policing and prisons altogether and policing and prisons altogether. This conclusion admits the law professor dubious and far fetched many is response to the thoroughly incredible and highly research position that the use of the criminal justice system as a tool of racial control reflects. Its original design. Yes i'm sure that this is going to be better for all the people who are law abiding in their inner city in the inner city communities. I'm sure the best thing will be to continue perpetuating. The darren wilson shot michael brown in cold blood. Just like officers across the country would do and that has no impact on people's lives in these places conspiracy theories do have impacts but folks on the left left are willing to go along with those conspiracy theories so long as they support their political agenda and as it turns out. I mean a wild piece the new york times promoting yet another conspiracy theory today that conspiracy theory is that the shooting in el paso texas the white supremacist racist shooting in el paso texas is due to i kid you not rush limbaugh sean hannity tucker carlson carlson and virtually everybody else on the right who has ever been critical of law enforcement when it comes to illegal immigration. There's an article in the new york times times called the new nativist how the el paso killer echoed the incendiary words of conservative media stars and basically looks like that actor from from it's always sunny in philadelphia standing next to the conspiracy board. It's just them looking. I mean they literally took the manifesto the festival of the killer in el paso of the shooter the white supremacist piece of fresh in el paso and then they scanned it for the word invasion and then they went and found other people who use the word invasion and that apparently is enough to blame those people for the crime to link those people <hes>. It's so weird how they didn't do that with the manifesto of the guy who attacked the ice facility like three weeks ago calling it a concentration camp so they've all now become charlie day in the conspiracy photo. There's a striking degree of overlap between the words of right wing media personalities analogies and language used by the texas man who confessed to killing twenty two people at walmart in el paso this month in the twenty three hundred word screed posted on the website h in the pilla wrote that he was simply defending my country from a cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion according to the new york times it remains unclear what or who ultimately shaped the views of the white twenty ninety one year old gunman or whether he was aware of the media commentary well wouldn't that be the thing you should investigate morons if you're going to perpetuate a conspiracy theory about how he watched lots of tucker carlson then went out and shot up in el paso walmart. Maybe ought to check out whether we'd watch tucker carlson all the time and even by that logic maybe talk with with the shooter in the congressional baseball ballgame find out how often he was stumping for bernie sanders and listening to what bernie to say but then you're at times openly admit that they don't have any direct connect between the white supremacist terrorists shot up enough house or walmart and tucker carlson but they're still going to push this it remains unclear what or who ultimately shaped the views of the white twenty one year old gunman but his post contains numerous references to invasion and cultural replacement ideas that until recently were relegated to the fringes of the nationalist right. I don't like the language of invasion and i don't believe if i've used it if i had him sorry did. I don't think that it has corrected. I'm fairly certain i never did because. I never considered it. A quote unquote invasion when illegal immigrants cross our southern border but it and i certainly don't believe in the idea of quote unquote racial replacement because they literally do not care about the races of people who live in america. I care about their ideas in their ideology but the new york times decides that because there is language that sounds similar to stuff that tucker carlson has said they are now going to attribute shooter to tucker quote in extensive new york times review of popular right wing media platforms found hundreds of examples of language ideas and ideologies that overlapped at the mass killers written statement assured vocabulary of intolerance that stokes folks fears centered on immigrants have color again. This is a conspiracy theory and the conspiracy theory. This one is deliberately designed in order to link together. Basic conservative tropes about immigration with white supremacism. This is how you end up with the new york with the washington post running a piece today on their front page about how evil the trump administration is for cracking down on welfare used by legal immigrants abigail house loner and nick mirror off have a piece today in the washington post titled trump administration ration- aims to make citizenship more difficult for immigrants who receive public assistance they say legal immigrants who use public benefits such as medicaid food stamps or housing assistance could have tougher time obtaining a green card or u._s. Citizenship under a policy change announced monday that is that the center of the trump administration's effort to reduce immigration the new policy for inadmissibility on public charged grounds which appeared monday on the federal registers website and we'll take effect in two months sets the new standard for obtaining permanent imminent residency and u._s. Citizenship the trump administration has been seeking to limit those immigrants might draw on taxpayer funded benefits such as many of those who've been fleeing central america again. This is a good policy but you watch as the rest of the week is dedicated to the notion that the trump administration is racist for attempting to curb public welfare used by people who are illegal immigrants to the united states. If you legally emigrate to the united states you should not be dependent on public welfare if you're legally immigrants to the united states should not be dependent on public welfare. I mean frankly if you live in the united states. You should try not to be dependent on public welfare but we have no obligation to bring in people who are then going to be dependent on on the taxpayer dime that doesn't make the country economically stronger again. This is all part of a generalized push push by the left beta o'rourke suggesting that the terrorist attack them in this has become his his thing that the terrorist attack in el paso was motivated by president trump begins. This is all part of the giant conspiracy theory that suggests that the entire right is tied in with white supremacists who shoot up the el paso walmart. He's changing the conversation and if we allow him to do that that then we will never be able to focus on the true problems of which he is apart and make sure that we get to the solutions and then you reported this week that his department of homeland security he has been begging the president to focus on the kinds of threats that we saw in el paso and he's ignored them or willfully suppressed action on those <hes> ideas and those programs and those policies that could have saved lives in el paso and across the country said trump is apparently part of the problem here. Kamala kamala harris goes even further of course because she always goes further and she suggests that the trump administration instructed the d._h._s. To commit raids against a chicken factory in mississippi specifically as part of a quote unquote campaign of terror those are specifically chosen words campaign of terror and they're obviously supposed to connect to el paso administration has directed d. h. Chaffetz to to conduct these raise as part of what i believe is this administration's campaign of terror which is to make whole that whole populations ends of people afraid to go to work. Children are afraid to go to school for fear that when they come home their parents won't be their campaign of terror campaign of terror and and this is this is the language they're using again. Conspiracy theories on the right are treated with precisely the sort of disdain that they merit conspiracy theories unless are treated as perfectly normal rhetoric and then you wonder why people on the right react strongly to the media condemning trump over conspiracies again from his dead wrong to say that hillary clinton has anything to do or bill clinton has anything to do with the jeffrey epstein suicide. That's that's silly. There's no evidence to it and guess what a media that refuses to acknowledge the conspiracies inherent in saying that that stacey the apron's governor of georgia and michael brown was murdered that donald trump is complicit in a terror attack and i'll pass on the tucker carlson is responsible. Yeah the conspiracy isn't just on the right guys and if you actually want to bring down the temperature then you're actually going to need to call it out whenever you see it on both sides. I'll call it out from trump. I'm not seeing a lot of people in the left calling out elizabeth warren today over the michael brown nonsense okay time for thing i like and then a quick thing i hate and we'll be out of here so thing. I liked today over the weekend. I had the opportunity to read a great eight piece of hard. Science fiction called three laws lethal by david walton. It's really good so the basic premise of the book is that there are these self driving cars and they're are these programmers who designed the self driving cars they come up with a system for making the self driving cars incredibly efficient involves building and the as is wont to do goes out out of control. I think that it's a it's a fascinating book. It does raise serious questions about a and the nature of being one of the great things about science fiction. I love science fiction because it's idea driven driven fiction very often fiction is emotion. Driven fiction sci-fi tends to be ideas driven fiction. David walton is great at this. The book is three laws lethal. Go check it out. It raises serious questions about what it means is to be. Human is the nature of identity it gets there from basically all of the rideshare services the us right now so it's kind of a cool entry point i it is it is worthy the read i'm reading books but now i want to walton's three laws lethal go check it out right now. Okay quick thing that i hate couple couple of quick things that i hate so first of all democrats now. Apparently it's become an article of faith that it's time to docks people who back president trump signed to go after them. Kirsten gillibrand desperate for attention failing zero percent in the polls kirsten gillibrand. She came forward over the weekend. She said that it's very good to go after president from donors and try to shame them or hurt them what about though what while king castro the congressman did this week with publishing the names of some of president trump's top donors is publicly available information but some would say he was targeting these individuals. Is that helpful or dangerous given what you're describing. Those are his choices not mine. I will call out racism. When i see it it. I will call out white supremacy. When i see it i will call out hate and i will stand up against it in every form so again michelle stand up she she wouldn't do it that way but still people have to be called that will call out racism and hate so you're not ruling out the dachshund guys giving to a political opponent does not mean that yard guard evil horrible no good very racist and disagree with you politically but if we start seeing each other and that's sort of like their future okay final thing that i hate today l._a. County supervisor mark ridley thomas finally beginning to recognize that l. a. has turned into a trash heap and it really is. It's a garbage whole i've lived here my entire life and the conditions the living conditions here are awful open needles on the street virtually everywhere everywhere. They're hoping people are homeless people living in piles of trash. There's danger of disease particularly on skid row in l. a. b. You can't go beneath a freeway underpass nazi an entire homeless steady l._a. County supervisor markedly tommy's. Hey you know what maybe we should do something about this homeless problem. We have a crisis <hes>. I'm essentially advocating waiting with my co chair. Darrell steinberg that we declare a state of emergency the situation is not getting better getting worse. We should not adjust adjust to a new normal that suggest in any way that people ought to languish on our street there any place in california we take roughly a one hundred and thirty a three people out of homelessness everyday in the county of los angeles and one hundred and fifty come in why because of the force of poverty therefore we we have to act quickly a state of emergency the right to housing no more status quo okay you think the right to housing is going to solve all of this you rent control is going to solve all. Let's where's the housing gonna come from. It turns out that a lot of people here to live on the streets. There are a lot of people who want who are drug addicts who can actually last housing or mentally ill who actually need medication but won't take the medication they've they've tried exactly these solutions in seattle and it's exacerbated the homeless problem you think right to housing isn't going to bring more homeless people to the city of los angeles plus. We're living in an economy three point seven percent unemployment rate and yet we're hearing about endemic poverty creating the homelessness problem in l._a. Why was it the ten years ago and the homeless rate when the when the unemployment rate was a lot higher. Why is it that in the middle of the great recession the homeless population of los angeles significantly lower. It has something to do with the policies pursued dude by the democratic legislators and county supervisors in los angeles. It ain't going to get better until you start actually arresting people for trespass until you are able to rouse people and move move them until you are able to get people to help they need by putting them in drug clean out centers even if they don't want to be there until you're able to take people are mentally ill and get them the treatment that they need and so you're able to arrest the people who willingly living on the streets. You're not gonna be able to do anything that's going to get worse and these politicians are gutless to do anything about it because they're afraid of being called me well. Guess what it exactly. Nice taxpayers have homeless people lying face down in drug induced in drug and do states of apathy outside your front door which all too often is happening in the city of los angeles. You do not have a right to do that and affordable. Housing ain't gonna cure that okay. We are a little bit later today with additional hours of content if not we'll see you here tomorrow. I'm ben shapiro bear. This is the ben shapiro show the ben shapiro show is produced by robert stirling directed by mike joyner executive -secutive producer jeremy boring senior producer jonathan. Hey our supervising producer is mathis glover and our technical producer is austin stevens edited by adam sigh of its audio is mixed by mike coral. Meena hair and makeup is by just over ira production assistant nik sheehan. The ben shapiro show is a daily wire production copyright daily wire two thousand nineteen.

jeffrey epstein jeffrey epstei michael brown president Donald trump epstein officer ferguson Jeffrey epstein murder bill clinton barack obama democrats darren wilson clintons united states america epstein osteen associated press new york times
Chris Hayes on Floyd protests: This is what Trumps America has wrought

All In with Chris Hayes

47:55 min | 6 months ago

Chris Hayes on Floyd protests: This is what Trumps America has wrought

"What if you could gain in demand credentials online and get personalized career services from a respected State University with global reach? Would you be interested today? And for the past Seventy Years University of Maryland global campus has been adapting to meet the changing education needs of the military and working adults. You Em G. C offers degrees and certificates in demand fields like business cybersecurity healthcare homeland security. It and more and its programs are designed with employer input so students gain real world skills. They can apply in the workplace right away with low tuition no cost digital materials in. Nearly every course and scholarships for those who qualify. You can affordably earned the credentials you need from wherever you are get started today at U. M. G. C. Dot edu slash podcast. A good evening from New York. I'm Chris as at this hour. We are monitoring the situation in Minnesota. Where for Third Night? There protests in the streets over the killing of a forty six year old man named George Floyd died on. Monday died after he was handcuffed. Who's pinned to the ground under an officer's knee police refusing to relent? Despite Floyd repeatedly saying quote I can't breathe killing George Floyd captured on video has ignited outrage and protests that have continued to escalate into tonight. Floyd's family calling for the four officers involved in his arrest and subsequent death to be charged with murder and we'll the officers were fired within twenty four hours of all this becoming public and has been three days and still no one has been charged. It's worth noting that unlike a lot of the protests last month the pro-trump antilock down protesters who've shown up with long guns at state capitals the people protesting the killing of George. Floyd from the very beginning have been met preemptively by police in riot gear who've used tear gas and rubber bullets against the protestors the Justice Department FBI have promised investigation to the four officers involved instead. It will be a top priority. The held a press conference late this afternoon which was strange to say the least. We expect some sort of announcement in fact the appeared to think they were going to do that to possibly about charges for the officers but then it was delayed two hours and then when they showed up they had nothing to announce. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that all your ducks are in a row before you make that charging decision. Bec- you can't undo what you've done if you rush but if you take that time you're GonNa do it right the first time and you're going to get it done the first time. That video is graphic and horrific and terrible and no person should do that but my job in the end is to prove that he violated a criminal statute and there is other evidence that does not support a criminal charge. Please give me and give United States attorney the time to do this right. And we will bring you justice. I promise George Fluids. Killing has sparked protests across the country including Memphis in Angeles where protesters blocked a freeway. This was the scene just a short time ago in Union Square New York City police and protesters engaged in a violent confrontation policing they're shoving protesters situation in. Minnesota is also escalating. Some come out and also set fires engaged in looting. I'm sure you've seen those images today. Democratic Governor Tim Walz activated. The National Guard is community leaders or calm be monitoring the scene on the ground throughout the hour and through the night throughout the night here on. Msnbc joining me now NBC News reporter Shaquille Brewster who live in Minneapolis. Where protests are taking place Shaquille? What is the scene there like right now? Well Chris what you heard from protesters and what. You've been hearing from protesters all week long that they will remain protesting naval continued to demonstrate until the obvious solution happens which in their minds is an arrest of the officers involved in the death of Mr. George Floyd we as you mentioned we heard from the FBI. We heard from officials both dealing with the federal investigation and the state investigation and they didn't have any answers. They preached in Preston emphasize idea that they want to be meticulous with investigation. They WANNA be thorough. They WANNA make sure they have their ducks in a row. Just because you may see some excessive conduct that does not necessarily mean it is criminal conduct. And that's what they're trying to threat. That's the needle. They're trying to thread right now. But if you talk to protesters if you have conversations with them and even the family of Mr Floor. They're saying that video that you saw that ten minute long video where you saw the officers knee on Mr Floyd's neck. That's all you needed to see. They're saying do the investigations later. That's enough to arrest this officer for an have him go through criminal proceedings meanwhile here on the ground in Minneapolis. The protests continue to continue to happen. I JUST WANNA share a bit of a conversation I had with the protester. Remember in Minneapolis. This is a city that has seen protests where it's been community and police. They've seen these clashes before. Listen to what this protest told me just a couple of hours ago. Clearly the police in Americans ages unfortunately this manifestation of long trauma long pushed rations these individuals. Aren't you know pillaging and getting angry for no reason? He underlining symptoms is the police department in America and the policing system in Minneapolis. We need to go ahead and completely abolish the system. Either stop completely all over because right. Now it's not an image of the community. To be honest. Mr Floyd was the person in the past ten years to die in the hands of Minneapolis Police Department. That's the frustration that you hear among protesters that they're tired of seeing the state they feel like there's a clear divide here. This is a clear cut case in their minds and they just want action to happen and they want action happen immediately crystal. They say they'll be out here. They'll continue to protest many of them want to do it peacefully. And that's what we're seeing behind me is a scene where we've seen clashes the past couple of days but it's been a pretty quiet. Seen people are playing music people are speaking their signs that they have people were encouraging people to clean up some of the mess that you saw yesterday after descended. They're they're saying they will continue to protest. They wanted to do happen peacefully but they will continue to protest until they see an arrest of those officers involved. Chris just one follow up. Shaquille the Hannifin county attorney. Mike Freeman came out today in that joint press conference of US attorney sort of basically saying give us time also sort of chastising the protesters unfavourably comparing the situation to Baltimore were Maryland. Mozambique did charge those officers and then they were subsequently acquitted. I'm just wondering if you hear reaction to what Freeman had to say today. Not really and I'll tell you you know. Unlike this wasn't a major announcement it was somewhat confusing. Press conference where they said yes. We're going to have justice justice for the family but give us more time and let us have this investigation and because of that. It's not a scene where there's a push on people's phone people automatically hear what was going on. So many of the protesters didn't mention that they are their bottom line and what they keep repeating every conversation I have with someone is they just believe the officer should be arrested. They say this is what you heard. The mayor of Minneapolis. Say he said if this were anyone else. If there was not a police officer this person would be arrested. He said if this were a black man he said actually black men have been put in jail for far far far less and less evidence. That's what you hear. The tone press protesters. They think that this is simple enough. That the officers involved should be arrested in. That's that's their bottom line. Kill Brewster's doing enough work out in the streets MINNESOTA. Thank you very much Shaquille. Thank you I want to bring in Pilar Melendez as a reporter of the daily beast who had a great piece today. titled Cop who kneeled on. Floyd tried to kill me in two thousand eight and she joins me now. The COP and question the police officer show. Vigne has a bit of a record. You found an individual who had been had had had a run in with them so to speak. Tell me about what your reporting said. Yeah so IRA tolls told me today that in two thousand eight Shaw was one of several officers that responded to his house for a domestic violence. Call the mother of his child called the police on him and he said that without warning the police entered his house barge into his home. He ran into the bathroom. He says that Chagrin entered the bathroom started eating him up with no warning until eventually shooting him in the stomach that was so close range that he still has a bullet wound and hole in his stomach today so he was in two thousand and eight so this was twelve years ago. He shot him. I mean he. Discharges weapons shot him in the stomach at close range in his own bathroom cracks. So basically He said that Mother child called for domestic violence case But Ryan and the other officers entered his house without any warning came into. That house started immediately. Going forward tolls toll said that. He hid in the bathroom. Because of you know what to do he says that when Chevron broke down the door He admits that he responded to shop. For and starring hit him and responded and start hitting him back. He doesn't remember being shot but he does remember getting walked out towards the end and falling on the ground next to his front door winning for paramedics to arrive. He says that he was at the hospital for two days before he was immediately brought to the court where he was charged with two felonies and one misdemeanor Chevron on the other hand was placed on administrative leave obviously for not long because he the force until recently and that he had to toll said that he had to make a plea deal in this case. That made him plead guilty to the misdemeanor but dropped the Chew on felony charges. Something he says that it will sound his record. Obviously on that he's GonNa have to deal with And he actually was. I surprised when he saw that. Chagrin his name come up during the George Floyd case in said that at first he didn't recognize the face of the man that had shot him in his bathroom but once he heard the name he was. It was very clear that it was the same person this police officer as NBC's reported others because there's a public database with complaints has had a number of complaints throughout the year. Years there have been several discharge of his weapon. This was not the only time I think that the that he fired his weapon on duty. And I if I'm not mistaken. I think there's been more than a dozen complaints at the years absolutely so the communities united against police brutality database. What you were referring to has over a dozen cases against Chevron that are complaints filed Either by citizens or others Many of them have to do with excessive force in his He started in two thousand one so it throughout his whole career. He only got to verbal reprimands. Everything else was pretty stopped under the rug. On some of the other cases that I think are notable wasn't two thousand. Six Shelbourne was involved in a fatal shooting before a two year. Old and two thousand seven. He was also one of five officers who was involved in a non fatal shooting of a native. American man. Obviously he had some run. Ins had some disciplinary actions in the past but none of them wanted him getting suspended or anything other reprimands so. I'm sorry that there's a fatal. There was a fatal shooting and I'd seen that that reporting there other complaints and then there was a non fatal shooting of the individual that you interviewed who was shot in the stomach and on bathroom and another non fatal shooting. Yes in two thousand eleven on the officers WANNA five. That was placed on a three-day leave for a non fatal shooting. What THE MR. Tall I think is his name. The individual that you What was his response? I know that he was surprised. And in quite remember and then he texted with his sister. Who said that was exactly the individual his his takeaway on what the situation is now. Yes so I mean today. When I spoke to him he was pretty angry. That chopper was not only force but he believes that if he was reprimanded for what he had done to him in two thousand eight that George Floyd would still be alive today He told me that while. He hasn't protested himself. He is one of many people in the community that are just completely fed up with the Minneapolis. Police Department He told me that Which I thought was very funny. That not only reached our tipping point but if boiling water is one hundred two hundred twelve degrees that the people in Minneapolis rather six hundred. They are completely fed up with what's happening and he wants. He realized that it was shot in that he had again done. Something that could have been easily stopped. If he had been through the proper procedures on torchwood would still be here alarm. Linda's who do that Reporting for the daily Beast today which I learned a lot from. Thank you very much for making some time for. Thank you so much and I want to bring in Jeremy. Allison who represents word? Five of Minneapolis on the city council councilman. I wonder how you're reacting tonight to the latest developments particularly the announcement by the US attorney and the Hennepin county attorney. Mike Freeman that that they just need to take some time and further. Consider the weight of the evidence. I think it's IT'S A it's A. It's a huge mistake. I think that no other individual regardless of race or anything would enjoy this much. Discretion would enjoy this kind of leeway after they've killed someone so blatantly and so brazenly are and so cruelly in the manner that That this officer killed George Floyd. What is your response to learning? As we have that there have been. There is a bit of a paper trail here. There have been a number of complaints. There have been a number of. There's been one fatal shooting at least two nonfatal fatal shootings involved officer about what it says about the Department of the department's ability to apply accountability or to fairly assess the actions of his officers. Regrettably I have to say that. I'm not all that surprised. Know in Minneapolis. We have begun this very recent. I think Intense reform of our police department. But let's be honest. No amount of training and no amount of diversifying. Your police force is going to create the level of accountability. That you need if criminal behavior is not Is Not met with criminal consequences for police officers. I think that we have had a history as a city especially BEF- before my time here of of these slap on the wrist sort of approach saying. Hey you're police officer your jobs hard and You did something awful. But we're willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and I think that that kind of culture has has has has has really poisoning the well so to speak here. Minneapolis I and it certainly created a lot of bad will between the public and the police. I've seen some statistics that rank major metro areas and their police departments. The percentage of police officers that live in the city limits and Minneapolis. Very low on that list. Which is to say. If I'm not mistaken. The majority of the police officers in the forest are living outside the city. I wonder your feelings about that whether you think that contributes to some of the issues here I think I I think it's nearly ninety. Four percent of our police force do not live here in the city of Minneapolis. I think that that is highly problematic but you know I do think that accountability right consequences for your actions is going to go the furthest I'm I'm in. I'm in favor of these of these reforms where people need to live where they work. I'm in favor of diversifying. The police force and I'm in favor of us are changing our training but at the end of the day all that stuff goes out the window if somebody knows that they that they sort of have carte blanche When they go out to abuse the community. Do you feel like there's a. There's a solution here. I mean the the sort of the the short term solution. The thing that protesters want as she my colleagues spiel prisoner was saying was a criminal charges. Here in the case of what happened but you know we have. We have been covering this covering this as long as I've been on television. We've seen case like case after case similar to this often similar profiles officers with other charges of before we've seen it in small suburbs. We've seen it in small towns as soon in big cities is seen in big cities. Diverse police forces. We see it in big cities with not particularly diverse police sources like as someone who is on the Minnesota City Council. And you think about what? What is the solution here? What are your thoughts on? You know? I hate to sound like a broken record but I think that every equation where you see a officer misconduct and as you said it's it's a it's a huge issue all across the country in all settings the one thing that people lack is that level of accountability. When officers commit criminal acts they often do not receive criminal consequences and and I think that that is the is the key ingredient here towards getting some level of accountability. I think that the other solution if I may is to is for us to really do an inventory of what kind of nine one one calls. We actually get around the country. I know we are doing that here. In Minneapolis and and figuring out which one of them require a police response. George Floyd you know. It's alleged that he wrote a a twenty dollar forge check so twenty dollars. Twenty dollars of four is what ended up being A death sentence for him that is. That's that's insane. Does a four check requires somebody with a gun to respond? Does a reforge check required this level of violence and does a does this? Does this whole situation warrant. Is it worth the amount of unrest that we're experiencing here in the city? I think it's not councilman Jeremy. Allison I think the first time I had the pleasure to speak to you and I hope I get to do it again. Thank you so much for taking time tonight. Thank you for having me don't go anywhere. Covers continues the protests in Minnesota. And the death of George Floyd right after this. What's the number one sign of a bad home security system a home security system? That's so complicated. You never use it. This is exactly the type of security system. Our sponsors simplisafe has spent a decade. Fighting against simply safe was designed to be easy to use while protecting your home. Twenty four seven you order online with the click of a button open. The box placed the sensors. Plug it in and your home is protected around the clock. No technician or salesperson has to come disrupt your house. I was honestly pretty proud of how fast I was able to get it all up and running best of all. You don't need to pay any outrageous monthly fees or signed a two year contract in fact there twenty four seven professional monitoring and emergency dispatch starts at just fifty cents a day head to simplisafe dot com slash all in and get free shipping and a sixty day money guarantee that simplisafe dot com slash. All in to make sure they know our show sent you in listeners. It's mainly MSNBC correspondent and host of the podcast into America the US Postal Service promises to deliver. Our Mail in rain sleet snow and now three in an election year. That means more people will be casting ballots by mail whether USPS be ready. Look at things that happen every day. Look at what happens in hurricanes in Florida and how mail gets delivered almost immediately during the problems in Louisiana and mail forwarded to where people have their examples every day about incredible things. Postal employees do on behalf of people in the country in the latest episode of into America. Nbc News Business Correspondent. Stephanie Rule Digs into the financial and political fight over the future of the postal service. And what it means for November. What if there's a disruption they lose funding the role they could play is bigger than I think? Anyone is thinking of for into America. Wherever you're listening right now and subscribe as you watch these images tonight as you think about what's happened in Minneapolis in the death of George. Floyd consider that it's almost June in a presidential election year and the incumbent president is going to stand before the people of this country on his records seeking four more years. And it's also worth remembering that four years ago. Barack Obama is leaving office and Hillary Clinton was running on the same party. Line Democrat the country of course had its share of very very serious problems before Donald Trump in economic recovery that had left a lot of people behind rising equality a criminal justice system that was frankly out of control police who had killed the black men and women across the country in painful videos. That were publicized. Leading to widespread social protests sometimes unrest and Canada. Donald Trump decided that this would be the theme of his campaign. The idea is the entire country went to hell in a handbasket because the first black president who wasn't even born here maybe it was a secret Muslim and it was time to get it back to the way it had been make America. Great again everything he talked about was how the economy was broken. He made up figures about unemployment. The election was rigged. The country was a disaster. He campaigned basically saying America is now a Hellhole. And then he was elected with a minority of. The vote is inauguration speech. Donald trump put the darcus possible cast on the state of affairs. Vowing to end what he called American carnage now here. We are not even four years. After he made his American carnage speech. The first few years he was terrible but at least the economy was kind of cruising ahead. Now now we're in the middle of a once in a century pandemic. It's worth taking a second of looking at where we are right now. More than one hundred thousand Americans are dead. After the first confirmed corona virus case in the country dead from a pandemic. The president claimed multiple times over and over. He had under control while he did basically nothing. At least forty million people have lost their jobs. We are staring into an uncertain future where it is unclear when and how the economy comes back and how many people the virus will kill. You will get sick. I mean the virus is still growing in pockets of the country over the weekend. Arizona had record high levels of hospitalizations. Er visits related the coronavirus statewide. North Carolina's coronavirus hospitalizations. Hit all time highs the second straight day Travis County Texas some of the State's capital home. The State's capital Austin just had the biggest one day jump in new cases since the start of the outbreak. And that is all laid on top of all the existing structural deep problems that were already here in America when Donald Trump was elected the problems that he so cynically exploited the problems that have only gotten worse under his tenure like the basic inequality and desperation that so many Americans understandably justifiably feel about our social worker and a criminal justice system that disproportionately harm African American Latino people that particularly treats black citizens like subjects of foreign authority be occupied not citizens and knock constituents and this is what it looks like right now in the state of Minnesota whose unemployment rate is thirty seven year high A. St Were Corona virus cases are surging particularly in the predominantly black Cedar Riverside neighborhood and now we're thousands of people are marching to protest. The killing of George Floyd Black Ben who died after white police officer knelt on his neck as floyd repeatedly said. I can't people protesting three days now. Many which are out there in masks in the middle of a pandemic buildings have been burned stores looted the same time over the last month at least there have been armed man showing up to state capitals long guns men who face very little sanction for their explicit menacing of politicians and police were hanging. The figure of governor effigy with a sign that evokes John Wilkes booth all protected speech. Men are urged. The president ways subtle and not many from openly profess a desire for violence against the state in a second civil war and there is no plan. The president warned against American carnage for the carnage and chaos. We are living through now that the pandemic not the economic crisis not the societal equities not predatory policing the protests in Minnesota. Nothing except to make it all worse to sell chaos and discord and bigotry and hope the smaller part the country that falls him is enough to win an election again. This is what Donald Trump's America has gone not great again ever further from a more perfect union as we've noted there are protests around the country tonight in a variety of cities including Memphis Tennessee Denver Colorado along with Minneapolis at the scene. I believe in Denver at the moment where protesters have blocking the intersection. Similar protests happening around the country in the aftermath of the death of George Floyd was the knee of Minneapolis. Police officer as he said I can't breathe was pinned to the ground. He had no pulse by the time. He entered the ambulance. There have been no charges arrests for any of the officers that were involved joining me now. Sherline EIFFEL President Director Counsel of the End Alesi Legal Defense Fund. Sharon worked on cases. Like this before you and I have talked through the years about this What do you think needs to happen in the short term in Minneapolis? Well I think the key here is that we've been around the circle before and the community is now educated about what should happen and the first thing that needs to happen is we need transparency. We need all the information. Today we heard the state's attorney from Hennepin County. Say He is not charging the officers. Because there's some other information or some other video that suggests that perhaps there should not be criminal. Charges and I was very disappointed with this kind of Baiting of the public. If there is something that he has he should reveal it and give the public a chance to see it. I have been calling for the release of the police incident report. I would like to know what those officer said happened when they got back to the station mouse. We've seen the Fire Department report but we haven't seen the incident report and we know this important Chris. Because it was vitally important in the case of Michael. Slager killed Walter Scott. Right and who gave an account of what happened in his encounter with Walter. Scott that was actually quite different than the video. We know this was important in Chicago when Quantum McDonnell was killed and the officer who killed him claimed that McDonald was coming towards him with a knife and video reveals. Something quite different. That's going to be important. Not only for the officer who so brutally and so awfully kill George George Floyd but also for the officers who were on the scene and bystanders. Did they co-sign a false account of what happened? So the first thing that needs to happen is we need more transparency more information and then secondly I would say I'm very impressed with the mayor's empathy and with his willingness to speak out very early about what he saw to tell the truth about what he saw but I am also concerned about the police response to protesters and the talk about property damage. People want justice. They want to know what is going to happen. I would like to see the mayor talking more. Just not at noon. Press conference every day. He needs to be able to talk in the evening. Not just in in City Hall. He needs to be out on the street and talking with people and telling them what is going to happen. People are not patient and understandably so because they want justice the mayor gic fry of the city of Minneapolis will beyond with my colleague Rachel Motto in the hour after us there will be. You'll be pressed on all of those Ben crump this say about the city. He said city leaders need to understand the community's grief over the horrific killing of George demands more than combination personal personnel action. The city must own this. And I'm I'm struck and talking to councilman Ellison just earlier in the show that there seemed to be some structural issues here particularly the fact that the record of this officer particularly is seems to have a lot of red flags. I gotTA say well. Let's talk about the various structural flags that are here in this incident. Let's first talk about the city of Minneapolis. The city of Minneapolis has experienced these killings before and as a result the Department of Justice after the last incident of unrest in the city of Minneapolis. Actually did a study released a report that provided a whole set of recommendations about how to deal with these kinds of issues in particularly civil unrest. I've read the report and seeing the recommendations. I see no evidence that the recommendations in that report have actually been implemented to try to quell some of the more extreme measures that the police have taken in terms of the unrest. Then secondly this police department has a terrible record. The racial disparities in the use of force and police. Brutality are extraordinary. This is a police department that in my view in any other time I would say Chris is right for a Department of Justice Pattern and practice investigation but we know that this department of Justice has virtually abandoned any effort to investigate a structural discrimination in police departments. And so we have very little hope. But it's also true that this officer has this incredibly long record of complaints. And that tells you that. There is a structural problem within the police department as it relates to discipline and accountability. He's also a senior officer. You see those other officers standing around watching him. That's he's the field training officer. He's the Superior Guy so that tells you that. There's a deep problem within the department. I have asked for the Department of Justice to get involved because I think we shouldn't stop asking the Department of Justice to do their job but it is also important to point out Chris that it was almost a year ago the to to the day that the department just decided not to bring civil rights charges against the officer. Who Killed Eric Garner? And we had a video there of someone being choked to death. Eric Garner being choked to death by officer Daniel Pantaleo saying I can't breathe eighty. It sat with the Department of Justice for years reports suggested the lawyers of the Civil Rights Division recommended that civil rights charges be brought against that officer and that Bill Bar the Attorney General countermanded. The recommendation of the Civil Rights Division the Legal Defense Fund. We've actually filed a foia request filed the request last year asking for information about the basis for that change decision. But I would remind people of that as we hear that the Department of Justice is investigating. We hear the president saying this is so sad. Just remember that that they refused to bring charges against the officer who we also saw on choked to death. Eric Garner rifle. Who has been fighting this fight for a very long time and and your note about the Department of Justice and patterns and practices. I think I just want to underscore that that We did get some very good and practices investigations out of particularly last year's administration particularly reports. That happened on the Cleveland. Police Department and the Ferguson Police Department among others that provided tremendous evidence and sort of a way forward and that has been completely absent totally absent from the Department of Justice under both Jeff sessions and now attorney Elaine Barr. Thank you sheryl in for making some time with US tonight. Thank you Chris. We come back and update on what's happening on the ground in. Minneapolis or protesters have returned to the streets to protest. The death of George Foot Container Monitor the scene in Minneapolis night where protesters taking the streets. Demonstrating against the killing of George Floyd earlier this week. I want to bring in Chaozhou Long. He's a reporter at the Star Tribune in Minneapolis. He joins us by phone in that city where he has been covering the protests. Chow. What's going on there now? We're what we're seeing is just multiple protest spread across the city and earlier today. The protests even sort of blood into Saint Paul next door where people mooted several businesses in a couple of different spots. Which is you've never seen before. Type of cases. What is your sense of? The context here is a local reporter in this city. I it strikes me that that there's a lot of people have been dealing with both Police violence for a long time. There are longstanding planes particularly Minnesota Minneapolis. Police Department doesn't people who've been dealing with pandemic and the stress endanger that and have been cooped up houses and there are a lot of pressures on people right now. What is the context for what we're seeing the really is? I think an important part of the context of that as progressive and as well off at Minneapolis Minnesota State Socially and financially. There's been a huge priority and some of the worst disparities in the country for people of Color and black people and particularly in terms of earning education and jobs. And that's definitely part of the undercurrent of tension here we're experiencing today in relation to the George Four case this is no longer single incident. It's encapsulates all the issues block MINNESOTANS. I've been dealing with their entire lives in in our state. Can you tell us a little bit? More about the context of Mike Freeman County attorney. He couldn't he was at that press conference today and of caution people. We played the clip of him. Talking about there might be other evidence. Police officer did not commit a crime. The longer version of it was essentially saying look you know. Give me time and trust me. And I'm the only one who's ever gotten a conviction of a police officer for this kind of thing. What what is freemen's record like know Most prosecutors and Freeman have not charged officers in the dot of civilians. He is one of three and have touched cops in the last few years and his office has only the only thing that has won a conviction. That's not really enough for The community and they question whether previous cases were thoroughly investigated and the fact that only conviction was against they. Molly American officer doesn't really sit well with the black community as well. That's interesting. I remember that that case that that was a police officer police officer himself. So Molly American and that was where the conviction correct. Yeah and he. He shot and killed a white Australian woman in one of our nicer. Neighborhoods of Minneapolis. What is your sense of? What the kind of bright lines here in terms of the demands. I mean she killed brewster our own reporters in the streets basically says look. The protests are going to continue this this sense of of of unrest. Outrage is going to continue in the absence of charges I mean and I remember when I was in Baltimore. That was very clear with respect to fetig Freddie Gray. That was the that was the demand of the protesters quite clearly. Is that your sense here as well. It certainly is and earlier this afternoon. Al Sharpton was in Minneapolis scene. Where George Floyd was killed? I cover that you. And he said I'm going to be back over and over again until we get justice for George Floyd and I definitely feel that community is on that On that bandwagon. And we're in the middle of summer. Well not even the middle summer the start of summer and we all along for people to get out there and demonstrating which Mark Clark several years ago. We saw that last through the league saw and was the weather data. And we don't have that as a mitigating factor who is reporting for the Minneapolis Star. Tribune the great daily paper in that town. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Don't go anywhere fill Paul Butler and Philip Tiba. We're going to join me next protest tonight. Minneapolis the death George Flood and African American men who was pinned to the ground under an officers knee earlier this week as he said. I can't breathe. He remained pinned and then he died now. Two people who not only understand what is going on today but also understand the online history. The causes of what we're seeing. Philip Tiba Gov the CO founder and president of the center for policing equity which analyzes data from across the country to help police departments address issues of inequality and Paul Butler federal prosecutor. Who served in the Department of Justice's Public Integrity? Unit offered the book chokehold Policing Black Men which examines US law enforcement system and how it treats lack men Philip. Let me let me start with you on this. Note down to the words uttered by this man as he died the there is. It feels like we have seen this before. And I've I've just been covering this fulltime for seven years and you work on this time and I guess my feeling is like. How do you not give up in this sense? How do you feel like things get better or there is progress or people are listening because it feels so often to so many and people that I've talked to over the last few days like it is running in circles? Yeah that's just real. I`Ma so I mean. Minneapolis is one of our closest partners. So this is a to Gut Punch to all of us. That do the work there to the folks. Were on the ground. The organizers that we partner with I gotta say one of the most frustrating things in the most dispiriting things in all of this is that you'll see a murderer like this and then a week or two later cameras disappear national attention disappears and in this political cycle with all this stuff going on. I'd be surprised if it's not sooner and the folks who were in pain who were bleeding on the streets either literally or in the way that. They are protesting uprising. This wherever you go and all of the attention had been able to sustain actual progress in Minneapolis and other cities from twenty fourteen through twenty sixteen. It disappeared when this administration showed up because all the other social ills started to to bubble up. So what part of what? I'm here for my folks in Minneapolis. Unlikely from my team is we had attention. We had momentum. We had a chief wanted to do the right set of things and now because nobody was paying attention in the last couple of years. We're not just starting over again. We're starting with the great crushing disappointment of what it's like to put your whole life into something and watch it crumble. This question about how to sort of sustain action here Paul. I know that there has been in the case of Minneapolis Sort of progressive challenge to Mike Freeman. That had county attorney there in two thousand eighteen. That he that he managed to defeat but there have been a variety of progressive prosecutors elected throughout the country most notably in Philadelphia. Larry crasner that have really attempted to sort of recast. The entire approach of the system of criminal justice there has been real on the ground progress in that respect. Where where do you think things stand right now? Well in this case simply fire in the officers too little too late. We have to look at structural changes. This isn't a concern about a couple of bad apple cops in the first place. What happened that? This officer was still on the force. You've been involved in Gary differences of killing people. He and his colleagues use of deadly force reader for times there twelve complaints. That civilians have filed against him. So why was he walking around licensed to kill? We know that the police report is along. The original police report said that Mr Floyd resisted arrest. That's not what the video shows. What is it about the culture of this police department? That three other officers could literally watch another COP. Snuff out the life of Mr. Floyd Mr Loyd literally near rigs his own demise and these cops didn't do a damn thing they didn't speak up at all so this is about our cultural institutional a structural problem not just with police in Minneapolis but all over the country. It's true that it's very bad in Minneapolis. Twenty percent of the citizens are African. American sixty percent of the people who were killed by cops are black in that city but the problem is nation. Why I wanted to get your thoughts on some of the images that we've seen Watch the police grab Mr Floyd there Shortly before he was killed. And we've seen images of the protest and obviously there has been a there have been fire set. There have stores broken into and you know under almost all circumstances police are going to do something about that but independent of that and even going back to the first night where there really wasn't any of that. The difference in police reaction to Mr Floyd and protesters compared to what we've seen in scene after scene play out in state capitals and we've watched protesters were armed with guns in the faces. A police officers. I mean two inches away like screaming in their faces and I've watched police officers after police officer in these footage be the model of forbearance the model for straight. I mean there were people shoving cops on the steps of the state capital in California and I just thought to myself my word that would not fly in like on the corner in the Bronx as someone who works with police. What do you make of that when you see you? You know in two thousand eight. I have the the opportunity to be embedded with the Denver Police Department during the DNC. I was walking with a district manager at the time african-american Sergeant African Lieutenant District. Man Was African. American started hearing drumbeats and I heard no justice. No peace no racist police. I Have A. I was surprised with coming from a bunch of white people who got right up in the face of all. They were spitting that night. There were feces hurled at in the face of lock worth wearing shields. But when you've got crap literally splattering in front of your face. I was shocked and impressed at the way. The law enforcement were able to hold their cool and to Now so it's possible that happens but what Paul's talking about I think is the the real root of all this stuff. We have decided that blackness. It's okay to say the blackness is dangerous like it's it's tolerable to decide if I feel threatened or if you feel threatened that whatever happens to the black body in front of me. That's all right. That's not just a policing issue though. It's a policing issue. That's an American issue. I don't think that we should be talking about this. As awful as in. Minneapolis without talking about what happened in Central Park right without talking about the weaponization of white fear and the protection of of some kind of former white innocence. That's what's happening in central park with the individual who calls the cops on a bird watcher. I don't WANNA say People's names 'cause I'm not trying to give it that level of power but it's also what's happening on the steps of the Capitol Michigan Right. They're both one of the things like well. This is your innocent right to protest. He can't anything more sinister than that. When you're showing up to a State House with a long gun trying to make sure that people don't engage in the practice of democracy it can't be more sinister than that and yet when you have these people who are being having their options and their chances takeaway taken away from and they feel as if the state is hunting them. We can't give them the space to find a way to express that without saying you need to get back you need to be able to behave. You need to comply. This isn't just a police issue. This is how we've decided to frame. Dangerousness and blacklist and it's generations old and. I got to say it's it's exhausting. Paul final final thought from you on the thing that Councilman Ellison told me this morning told me earlier in the show basically which is in a broader sense to four are men need to show up to deal with what appears to be maybe a possibly a twenty dollar bill or ten dollar bill or for. Shack. It's a little unclear. As the root of the way that we approach this was killed for selling a single tobacco cigarette on the streets. Mr Fluey allegedly tried to use a counterfeit twenty dollar bill and yet the law authorizes the police to make arrests for minor crimes. Like that and to use deadly force. If the person is uncooperative. And so that doesn't need to happen. We need to change the law. We need to understand that. The real crisis isn't what's going on in the streets tonight in Minneapolis. The real price is that the streets have never been saved for black people around people in Minneapolis. Philip Tivo Gov Paul Butler. Thank you gentlemen both for sharing that I appreciate it. That does it for all in you can catch his every weeknight at eight o'clock on MSNBC facebook that's facebook dot com slash. All in with Chris. Hi there I'm Michael Lewis host of against the rules and we're back for our second season. We're talking about coaches. It wasn't that long ago that we only had coaches in sports. But now there are life coaches and death coaches. You can even hire a coach to improve your online dating performance and your charisma. The coaching has become an odd source of unfairness. Who has access to these coaches? And who doesn't find against the rules wherever you listen brought to you by pushing industries?

Minneapolis George George Floyd officer COP attorney Minnesota Chris Mike Freeman president Minneapolis Police Department reporter Shaquille Brewster America Department of Justice US Paul Butler Donald Trump Denver Police Department NBC Memphis
Jeff Sessions is gone but not forgotten

Vox's The Weeds

54:54 min | 2 years ago

Jeff Sessions is gone but not forgotten

"Automatically uploading your whole library to your expensive. I clad account at that's not smart but hiring with ZipRecruiter mad. That is smart. That's ZipRecruiter has powerful technology that finds people with the right experience for your job in an actively invites them to apply. So you get qualified candidates and you get them fast. Ziprecruiter's rated number one by employers in the United States based on trust pilot ratings of hiring sites with over one thousand reviews, so now weeds listeners can try it for free at ZipRecruiter dot com slash weeds that ZipRecruiter dot com slash weeds. Smartest way to hire. Oh, you're going to tell me. That's illegal. Oh, I'm protecting the country combat big, bro. Hello. And welcome to another episode of the weeds on the box media podcast network. I'm Matthew yglesias KUA, Jen, coasted and Dera Lind. Jeff Sessions, of course, as you know, was fired as attorney general of the United States in the immediate aftermath of the midterms on Wednesday except for the purposes of the vacancies act for which purpose he quote, unquote resigned. So there's a lot of stuff going on with that. But we're going to set it aside for a minute to talk about some of these final days legal actions that came out of the Justice department and the Trump administration starting with we are here in the studio. Just at the moment when there is a hot off the presses executive proclamation on asylum since we were talking loosely about these subjects before the election. Now, we got the actual policy, and we have dare here. So what what is the policy? What's the how how are we keeping ourselves safe from? Vicious asylum seekers. So what the Trump administration has done is this morning Friday morning from signed the same kind of proclamation that he signed to enact the travel bans in two thousand seventeen. So he's using this very broad portion of the immigration and nationality act that says the president can suspend the entry of a class of aliens in order for that to work though. They had to issue a regulation that went public yesterday's officially being issued in today's Federal Register and is effective as of today, which if you're familiar with the federal regulatory process, you know, that that is extremely unusual that usually there has to be a formal notice and comment period. They are trying to argue that it's exigent enough essentially that they didn't need to do that this time. We'll see if that holds up in court, but the regulation kind of said, okay, if someone in theory tried to seek asylum but were subjected to an executive order under this a presidential proclamation under this provision. In theory. They would not be able to go through the regular asylum screening process, which if you've come to the US without papers and are apprehended by border patrol or come to a point of entry. You say you have a fear of being persecuted your screened in an interview in which you're supposed to show you have a credible fear of persecution. And then if you can meet that credible fear standard, you're allowed to fully apply for asylum, which is a process that can take months or if you're not being detained throughout it can take years. This is what's been frustrating. The Trump administration's what they call catch and release because you know, once people clear that hurdle which most people do they'll be able to stay in the US for a long period of time. And the Trump administration can't always detain them. What the regulation issued yesterday in effect today says is inferior. If someone were to be covered by a proclamation instead of going through a an interview for credible fear. They would have to meet a higher standard. It's cold reasonable fear. It's a preponderance of the evidence standard. So it's like. More likely than not that you'd be persecuted. And while about seventy five percent of people who go through a credible. Fear interview made it twenty five percent of people who go through a reasonable fear interview, meet that standard, that's probably because right now, those reasonable interviews are pretty rare in are limited to pretty borderline cases. But it's definitely going to raise the standard for some people. And Furthermore, even if people can meet that reasonable fear standard instead of being eligible for asylum. They would be eligible for these lesser forms of protection that don't allow you to get permanent legal status, the US so late all of this was set up as a hypothetical edifice and then lo and behold on Friday morning right after the Federal Register officially published. Trump signed an exa- presidential proclamation saying that anyone who was trying to enter the US between ports of entry and wasn't an unaccompanied child would for the next ninety days. Their entry would be suspended it would be banned. So the combination of those things means that most people who are entering between. Of entry, which is the way most asylum-seekers try to get into the United States right now because they're backed up will be shunted into this process that is more restrictive than fewer options at the end and makes it more likely that they'll be some merrily deported. If they flunk the initial screening, and so what what happens like when you're summarily deported like if you come up from Guatemala. You're there between ports of entry. Somebody picks you up. They put you to the screening. You don't meet the new hire bar like what what does that mean? That means that you're treated the same way as most people who are apprehended crossing into the US, right? It's worth bearing in mind that the whole asylum credible fear system was built to be an exception to the rule. Right rule is if you come to the US without papers, and you're apprehended you are going to get deported without a court hearing like that's standard issue in unlike being handed if you're living in the US the. Only exception to that is if you say that you have a fear of persecution. So like, usually people aren't automatically given an interview at all it's something that they kind of have to access by saying they have a fear of persecution, or in theory border patrol is supposed to ask this is this is when Trump said in one of these rambling yet things I've heard him say, they're coached by the lawyers. They say the magic words and when he is positing, right? His fury of the case is that used to be that people would try to sneak in between the points of entry. And if they got caught they will get deported immediately. But they have learned from these lawyers that you can use. The magic words I have a fear and that earns you the right to an initial screening it's relatively easy to pass the initial screening, and then you wait for a court date, and you wait a long time. So this is the loophole, right? Twin from red to the. Picture that they are trying to paint right is one in which old fashioned. I'm going to sneak across the border and hope they don't catch me has gone out of style in favor of new school. I'm going to have a BS story about persecution. I'm going to be in the interior of the country awaiting court date, and then maybe I just don't show up for it. We are. We are closing that loophole by saying people are gonna come. And we're going to bounce the bulk of them really quickly just like we used to with single men coming to work, right? That's the idea that there is systemic fraud in the asylum system is pretty widespread throughout the Trump administration. If you ask them what is your evidence of systemic fraud? Usually the first thing they'll point to as well, most of the people who pass this initial screening don't ultimately have their asylum claims approve usually you have to have a higher bar for asylum fraud is illegitimate cry. Like, you can get federally. Charged for that. You do not automatically get charged with the Silom fraud. Just if you're -plication gets night. It's like, they're kind of rhetorical argument that they're these thirty migration lawyers who are coaching people to evade the system has not been documented to the extent that one could kind of take it as for is a given is kind of what I'll say, you know, there is this broader resource problem of the laws and the current funding that is given to CB P is built for credible fear, and all that being the exception to the rule. This does raise the fun question. Okay. So is the system that they're actually setting up going to be less of a less of an involved process in the answer to that is. But you know, to certain extent, it appears to be a bargaining chip with Mexico to see if they can get them to sign an agreement that would allow the US to reject literally everyone who had traveled through Mexico before asking for asylum. It does kind of appear to be a certain like this is the thing we can do. So we're doing it. Trump told us to fix this problem. So we're fixing what's his Mexico issue? Let's let's. No. I mean, I think important I would love to talk about third countries. So like to be this is not unfamiliar to anyone who has listened to the weeds over the last several months when you talk about particularly asylum seekers, but really people coming into the US through Mexico, generally, we are less likely to be talking about Mexicans than we are Mullins Honduran Salvadorans that means that those people are going through Mexico as the famous caravan is right now, they set off from Mexico City today, they're currently in central Mexico. It also means that some of them are seeking asylum in Mexico, including several former members of the caravan. So the US X relationship has been defined for the last several years largely on this question of what do we do about these people coming through your country to get our country, the Trump administration, which never sees a carrot at can't run into a stick has decided that the right answer is to kind of crammed down Mexico's throat this agreement that would basically say, no Central American migrant can get asylum in the US. Mexico. This is your problem. Now, it's not clear exactly how the US would be helping Mexico like absorb or repatriate those people like it does not appear to be the case that Mexico has any inclination to sign this. But the administration is holding this out as okay this proclamation. We just signed may not be for the full ninety days because maybe Mexico will give us everything we want, but the picture here, right? Is that like the bulk of the refugees from the series of war are in Turkey Turkey is Jason to Syria, and if somebody flees Venezuela, they're most likely going to go to Columbia because Columbia's adjacent Venezuela. Right. Yeah. But I mean, the the basic picture, right? Is that like if you are in Guatemala, and you like pick up to flee for your life. You're gonna get to Mexico, and when you were in Mexico, you are not being persecuted by the government of Guatemala since you're not in Guatemala, and so in a basic. If if for whatever reason at any point in history, Guatemala had civil war, which I believe happened in the in the fifties like they're refugees. And where if you go in a civil war is the countries that are next to the country that they're fleeing because they are just like a obviously after the revolution. People fled Cuba that came to the United States is as close to Cuba. Right. So I mean, that's like the vision. He is is that like bona fide refugees should be intensities in southern Mexico or whatever. Right. It's not like why is this America's problem, right? This is definitely kind of the picture that is being painted. It's just that international law doesn't allow you to say unilaterally. We've decided that you could have stayed in Mexico. Instead. Right. Like it's allow you can you can consider it a negative factor when somebody's making a Silom claim. But you don't get to say, well, we have decided. Did that you had this better option? And so we're gonna we're gonna force you to do it and less Mexico agrees. So you into doing instead is kind of this. They're not restricting asylum entirely. They're saying we'll as long as you're willing to go to ports of entry as long as you don't break our law. I right, which it doesn't force the question of well, you should've stayed. You should have been safe in Mexico in an explicit way. What it does? Instead is in practice require people to if they want to get asylum. Wait at ports of entry for several weeks, which means they're going to have to wait for it. Stay in Mexico now. I mean, you could imagine like alternate universe. Trump administration right in which they call up the Mexican government. And they're like, hey, it is really important to us to not have large numbers of additional immigrants from Latin America, we feel that Mexico has like a comparative advantage in the resettlement of Spanish speaking, Latin American people being Spanish. Latin American country, and let's talk about like, what can we do for you? I would I you and I and certain walks through out DC have a fantasy of a regionalist approach to this. But I mean needs port of what's interesting is the Trump has been doing like literally the opposite of that. Right. Like on other issues like you might have said to Mexico, probably Mexico would like some changes to NAFTA that would make it more favorable to Mexico. And maybe we could give you that in an exchange. You could help us out with this quad, Damola prob, right? But instead it's been like opposite. Where like they like put the screws to Mexico to get some changes to the treatment of car parts and all this other stuff in NAFTA. And now it's like let's put the screws on again. Right. It's like this is like Trump's vision of the art of the deal is that nothing nothing is ever win win there. No, positive some bargains and Trump world. There's just the idea that the United States. It's like, you know, it's like a bad neighbor policy. Right. Like, we're stronger than Mexico. So every time we want something we're gonna lean on Mexico because this is Jeff Sessions. We also want wanna talk about Jeff Sessions role in this, right? Like, we're talking about this as if this is a like homeland security foreign policy kind of thing. The development of this policy was housed in the DOJ pretty close hold. It had its roots in a policy that I've been reporting on for a while. This was originally supposed to be part of a much broader regular kind of regulation like the sort that you post and has the notice and comment period. And all of that that was originally drafted in super radical form that would have essentially barred anyone from Central America from getting asylum, then clawed back a little bit and was being worked on an early October. Which is to say that like. The timeline on. This is definitely because of the caravan like one hundred and ten percent. This does appear to be a Trump administration officials starting with the president himself have been freaked out by the continued increase in families coming through and the caravan focused a lot of that and force day. What are we doing immediately? But it also means that like they had this thing to work from that was being developed by lawyers who understood to a certain extent, what's the way we can do this and not just be straight up telling line officers to violate the long like that's an important thing to note because there is going to be litigation on this. And I would be shocked personally if this isn't put on hold at some point by federal injunction, but the way that this was done wasn't just smash and grab no for not taking them anymore. It was something that was worked through hastily. But through an existing regulatory process. By the kinds of people who Jeff Sessions has set up with a mandate to be as harsh on immigration enforcement as possible. But find ways in the law that you can do us officials professional not like Steve Bannon after three drinks, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I assume that they're going to be tectonics who can probably speak to this more than I can. And I think it's it would be responsible to overstate the professionalism here. It was pretty clearly driven by like we want to get this done ace up. You may recall. The Donald Trump was supposed to have a big asylum speech on the Tuesday before the election that did not happen. But it didn't happen partially because he was in Pittsburgh instead that day, but it was going to be a rule out of this policy. This was actually originally supposed to be we have to get this done before the election. Okay. Pivot a little so the poor Jane can speak. I'm sorry. Never apologize. We had we had another midnight order out of the Justice department. And it's it's just so exciting. It was so interesting. I pointed this out. For the show that at the same time that people were marching essentially in Times Square and other public places basically saying that firing sessions puts Robert Mueller's job in jeopardy, and that's bad. But it's interesting how when we talk about Jeff Sessions in the context of the Mueller investigation. We're talking about a different Jeff Sessions than the Jeff Sessions who for instance, last night signed an order that would dramatically limit the ability of law enforcement officials to use cordon forced agreements known as consent decrees to help overhaul local police departments and consent degrees have all pretty long history. There were used in the early nineties in Pittsburgh. And basically the idea is that it's a type of injunction that allows a federal court to enforce an agreement that's negotiated between say the Justice department and say the Chicago police department, which would be a particular example to which sessions was very deeply opposed. Because he believed that if you don't let the police have, you know, extra judicial powers that. Who knows what might happen? And so they have now the Justice department has limited those agreements in a couple of different ways. One of them is that now they have to be signed off on by a political appointee. And it's not just the career lawyers who are generally in charge of this and another is just kind of making it more complicated to either enter into these types of agreements. It can't just be for police departments breaking the law, and so they have to lay out evidence of additional violations besides unconstitutional paver, which you know, you would think that the violation that is unconstitutional behavior by police department would be enough. But apparently not and that the deals have to have a sunset date. So you have to say that like this deal will go away on July fifth twenty twenty instead of saying like, you know, when the Ferguson police. Department stops using citizens of Ferguson, Missouri as Bank accounts debts one will lift this agreement. And so it's interesting because I wrote about this a little bit during the Connie as flows in that there is I think that this goes to something about Jeff Sessions particular that since the beginning of the Trump administration, there's been Donald Trump, and then there's been the Trump administration. And so Donald Trump has been yelling about how Jeff Sessions is terrible and not adequately protective of him. Jeff Sessions has just kept on going with kind of following what the Trump administration's version of the law is, and I think that there's there's a saying like, you know, for my friends everything for everyone else the law, and so you saw that criminal Justice reform really took a back seat in the eyes of Jeff Sessions because he believed that criminal Justice reform, basically being mean to police officers, even wild Jared Kushner was working across the island a lot of ways to attempt to get criminal Justice reform on the table. And you heard before the. Elections that Mitch McConnell was like, oh, you know, if we get sixty votes for this. We can get this happening, which means it's not going to happen. But it is interesting. How one of sessions is last X was to ensure that police departments have less oversight. And that has less local ability, keeping my love of these agreements are locally agreed upon and Jeff Sessions, essentially said like, no, the federal government can tell you that you cannot enter into the specific locally agreed upon agreements. I know that's the word agree a lot. But that's the only way to say it, but it's interesting, and I think someone the former head of the civil rights division of DOJ said that, you know, Jeff Sessions, I was always claim to low federalism, and yet at this point like big government. It's great. What I particularly love about this like of all the things that Jeff Sessions has done his stuff on policing has often seemed a little less systematic because like it's been at the level of like, not defending particular consent. Decrees who went into. Kogo? This seems kind of lake. He's on his way out saying, I'm gonna make sure that just in case somebody comes in who isn't as a situa sleep devoted to restricting federal oversight of police as I am that they couldn't do anything about it. Anyway. Right. And it's interesting because I think that one of the major consent agreements people talking about Chicago, but there's also eight central Louisiana because the Zana police departments I believe it was specifically Baton Rouge. But if you know more, please send more information. There have been a lot of issues with those fleece departments. But it's really interesting, and Heather McDonald wrote a piece about this. Now, Heather McDonald wrote a book about the war on Cup. Yes. There has never been an agent of the state to which Heather McDonald. It's not deeply devoted. But it's interesting how her positioning of Jeff Sessions and the Jeff Sessions firing with so based on like, but law enforcement loved him. He was just trying to follow the law. And I think it goes to your point Dr about. How the sessions Justice department while you saw a little bit with other branches of the federal government that it was just kind of more LeRoy Jenkins approach to this the sessions Justice department. Very much was okay. We are going to do this thing. But we are going to do it within the quote unquote letter of the law in such an extent that it seems more subtle, but it's actually worse. But also, I mean, the basic problem which sessions is like when you look at the Trump cabinet. There's some different kinds of characters in there. Right. And you see you have a guy like Steve Mnuchin who nobody ever knew what Mnuchin thought about anything, right? Like, he was a total cypher who clearly had been trying to get somewhere and Republican politics. And so he he took a bet on Donald Trump in the two thousand sixteen campaign when there weren't a lot of people on Wall Street and wanted to raise funds for him. And now he's Treasury Secretary. And who knows why right and Jeff Sessions is the opposite of that. Right. Like Jeff Sessions had. A policy agenda that was outlined in quite a bit of detail long before Donald Trump was running for president. And then what Trump started groping toward with similar to Jeff Sessions's agenda. So when sessions back Trump that was seen as a significant moment because no other senators were backing Trump, but nobody was confused, right? When the Steve Newton started backing Trump, though, a lot of people are like what like what are you doing here? But like when sessions back from it was totally obvious when he was doing even said it in the speech, he was the first member of the Senate to endorse Trump, and he says in the speech, he gives put on a maga- hat, and it's just so excited about he talks about this specifics that you're going like that was why he got on board with this is worth noting not only good for sessions in like now having an avatar, but also good for Trump in so far as he then is able to put forth some policy. See proposals that are way outside the Republican mainstream but are being developed by members of sessions staff, most notably Stephen Miller. But also, I mean, this is we'll get to this after the break and such it's firing. This is also the problem with sessions in the Trump cabinet is the Jeff Sessions was actually there for reason right necessarily like I don't approve of Jeff Sessions's reasons, but I never thought I didn't think when Jeff Sessions signed on as a Trump endorser. I didn't think wouldn't sessions went onto Torney general. I didn't think when sessions was scrambling to scuttle the twenty thirteen immigration compromise. Like Justice wasn't bullshit. Like, this is really what he thinks. And he believes in it quite seriously and his very committed and was committed to it when it was very politically unfashionable and was like to his good fortune that it became more fashionable. All in Republican circles. But like what Trump really wants is people who will just do stuff for him. Right. Not someone who will sessions was writing the Trump wave in order to promulgate these rules and worse in consent agreements and get some people in place who understand the plumbing of asylum law and wanna try to turn the screws to make it harder for people to get in like he had his reasons. But so then he was reluctant to just go way off script and do what Trump wanted in terms of scoring round with the FBI. Yes. A tidbit of gossip that was interesting to me when it came out on Wednesday. And now what's happened over the last twenty four hours. It's happened. You guys will now understand. Why was interesting to me? And that I think will set us up for the conversation after the break. It was reported on Wednesday that when John Kelly went to Jeff Sessions own Wednesday morning and said you're leaving today sessions. Said please let me stay the week and Kelly said, Nope, sorry. It has to be today and sessions submitted his undated resignation letter and went out the building. And looking at that knowing that they were looking to get this out in the last few days. And now they have knowing that this has really been the baby of Sessions's DOJ much more than Christian Nelson's DHS. It's very interesting to me that sessions wanted to be able to stay through the day that Trump signed this proclamation, and that he was denied the ability to do that what time for a break. Yes. 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So something I want to get at is. You know, I think that when we're talking about Jeff Sessions, and we're talking about, you know, if you were a conservative who is a quote, unquote law and order conservative, and I hate using that term because a lot of these people are just very much like they're not it's more order than a lotta ordering a lot not that much law. But the idea that your position -ality in the Trump administration is supposed to be transactional. And I think that that's what we were getting at before the break, which is that you Jeff Sessions was there because Jeff Sessions had things he was interested in doing besides just serving Donald Trump. Whereas you've seen people who get close to Trump. I think about this with all the random hangers on within the conservative movement and by conservative movement. I mean, like not the people who write for like national review, a weekly standard. But the people who seem to have like gotten on board the Trump train within the last eighteen months. But you see this idea that he likes them because they like him and they can do something for him. So he might do things for them. It's a very lake like in the movie, Chicago lake what you do for mama mama will do for you. And yet Jeff Sessions was never going to be a part of that. But you know, when he recused himself from the Russian investigation because of his best conflicts. It was Trump's idea of what an attorney general supposed to be very much based on what he thought Eric Holder was and his idea of Eric Holder with someone who defended the president, first and foremost, and that's something you hear a lot on the right? The idea that you know, with fast and furious or this idea of the scandals that conservative saw within the the Obama administration. They viewed Eric Holder as a person who basically like stood in front of Obama, and like made sure that nothing got to him. Which is why they think that a lot of people when people like, oh, it was a scandal free administration. Like, no, no, no. There were lots of scandals. They just never got to bomb. Trump wants what that version of an attorney general is whether or not that is actually how it happened is not important. But his idea that Jeff Sessions was supposed to basically just not be there for what he wants to do not be there because you know, he'd been fighting about gang of eight back a twenty thirteen not be there because this is something, you know, the issues upon which he focused happen to align with the issues Trump talked about, and thus they would have this great working relationship. He should've been there to defend Trump, and that should have been the whole deal. He should have been hit basically his personal journey. Right. And so now, we have acting attorney general Matthew Whitaker who I don't. I don't know what to say about Matthew Whitaker. He appears to be a a small time crook involved in some kind of multilevel marketing scams. He finished fourth in an Iowa Senate primary at one point he worked at some kind of conservative think tank that I never heard of where he did like up ED's about Benghazi, and he appears to have become chief of staff in the Justice department because he did some cable news hits about the Muller investigation saying that it was overreaching, and that it should be shut down now. And when we say appears to it's not this is not like, oh, there is a conspiracy theory. This is like no one has yet put forward alternative theory of how Matthew Whitaker came to the attention of the Trump administration, which is interesting because now you just a couple of minutes ago before we started recording Donald Trump, basically went with the full Mariah Carey, I don't know her excuse about the I don't know who this person is when we. Clift. Clear. Trump often does a good job of like dragging people into questioning reality. But like normally what happens, right? If the head of a cabinet department goes it's not legally required that you make the deputy be the acting. But just like that's normally what you do for like obvious reasons. Right. Like in any organisation you've ever heard of if the number one guy leaves the number two guy to be any steps up. Now, there was also provision. Some other people could do it. There's a number three person. There's a number four person in the Justice firemen. There's a lot of people to reach around all of those people and get a guy who doesn't hold a Senate confirmed job who seemed like a weird choice for the Midland job that he has like is just weird that you can say that like will Whitaker's bad because he's gonna compromise the Muller probe, which I guess is like an official worry people are going. With. But actually, if you sit more side, he's just obviously poured choice, right? Like, he's a good choice. If you focus on the molar situation, and you want the molar probe shut down. But like if you just don't talk about Muller, and you just put him aside, the other people working in the Justice department. He just doesn't seem remotely qualify. And it's a real signpost that like even on these Justice issues, which like supposedly like core of Trump assed policy and politics, like Trump is really worried about Donald Trump. Right. Like, he is I don't wanna say to darker picture. But like this is not a good way to run an officiant Justice department that pursues Trump policy agenda in like a rigorous disciplined ineffective manner. Right. Like, you could get no Francisco to do that. Right. And just a side note when we're talking about. People finding themselves in situations where they should not necessarily be one fun fat about Matthew Whitaker is that he played tight end for. I was Rose Bowl team in nineteen Ninety-one it Rose Bowl team that somehow was also finished eighth three which is a example of just people finding themselves in high level positions that maybe they shouldn't have really gotten to in the first place winning the electoral college without the popular vote. Oh, good point, man. So the thing about Matt Whitaker is clearly on one side of a spectrum where you know, if you can go from no franscisco to Matt Whitaker in terms of like relevant experience to running things and commitment to the policy agenda versus does Donald Trump think you'll have his back. There are lots of people who are some point in the middle though. And this is where the question of what the Trump administration looks like after sessions becomes really interesting to me because it's not like Jeff Sessions was running the DOJ as a completely. Top down like everybody from sessions down was just automates fulfilling sessions orders, and it's also not like the White House hasn't had people who have been involved in shaping policy as well. So what I'm trying to figure out is does a post sessions kind of policy making apparatus look lake. Jeff Sessions is still you know, like he is secured his legacy. He's still the ghost in the machine enough of the people who are there were his staffers or ties to him before Trump. They share his vision, they share his expertise. They're going to try to make sure that something is built to last. Or are we looking at the LeRoy Jenkins phase of the Trump administration? Thank you, Jane for that like totally apt reference where people just like while the plan is being devised running in and trying to shoot blindly and getting killed xactly. It's a fantastic reference. We're totally putting this and show notes. Exactly. Yes. So I I don't even know what to say every time anything happens in America. I think you get hot takes spun up about the unique political genius of Donald Trump and his like bond with his base and how he helped Republicans when a Senate race in fucking North Dakota or whatever, and it's like this happens, and I think back to baseline reality, right? Which is like it's nothing that Donald Trump is doing for the conservative movement of a Republican party politics that could not be done by person who does not have like massive corruption scandals hanging over his head who creates whole multi-day new cycles about his subverting of his own administration's efficacy because he's trying to dig his way out of one of these scandals. Like, it's like, it's just untrue. Right. I mean like like anybody could do this stuff like get forty six percent of the vote like that. Like read federalist society list of judges and submit them to the Senate, and it's like to me like staggering ongoing element of American politics is like Trump's like negative value over replacement presidency. Like, we're right in here like midterms. They didn't do very well for Republicans. They were like desperately coming up with this spin about alike secretly is good to lose the house. Maybe he's like shitting on meal of for no reason. And then this it's just it's it's bad work, very low for p-, something I wanna get to think that that's a really important point. Because I think there's been a couple of conservatives who brought this up this past week that the midterms now, I think first and foremost a lot of people seem to have written their midterms takes like nine forty five pm eastern on Tuesday, real talk. This election has convinced me that live results are going to steer you wrong. They are bad for your brain. And I know that this is against my material interest as a journalist of web outlet. And I'm sure I'm going to get. If I never on another weeds again, it's because I've gotten fired for saying this. But like, oh my goodness. See I watching the live results like five thirty eight nearly killed people on Tuesday with just like, oh, there's a thirty percent chance. The Democrats win the house or something. Anyway, we are now up to like over thirty seats flips like it's been it was a pretty successful midterms for Democrats. But I think a couple of conservatives I saw raise this point that basically instead of Trump being list like wild phenomenon of magic. And it's interesting because there was like a political piece that basically said like is does he have magical powers MC? No, no. He's just some dude that basically it's a revert to the norm of politics. And like, for example, that maybe actually it was who was this kind of like stunning norm breaker who could win Ohio, which is actually a pretty red state, or who could do these things we're just different politically. And that you saw in the midterms that like all of the states at Trump won and twenty sixteen. Gene, Trump very much did not win in twenty eighteen and you know, he went to Montana four times and Jon tester still one like UC again. But the story of Trump being this crazy, norm breaker is actually the story of American politics. Reverting back to a norm that you know, it turns out Pennsylvania's pretty blue Ohio's pretty red, Missouri is pretty red, but you can pick up winds in down ballot areas in Indiana and Georgia if you're democrat who runs a smart local campaign, and it's so interesting because I think that because Trump is very good at making everything about him. If we had this conversation, and I've often thought again in terms of things that would actually not work for my actual job. If we talked about twenty eighteen Republicans without ever mentioning Donald Trump. We would be talking about like in terms of where it holds power. We're talking about a party that is very similar to the Republicans. I remember growing up in Ohio in two thousand four. Four, and it's interesting to see how I'm not gonna say regressing, but we are reverting back to a norm that existed before two thousand eight maybe, but I think it's negative. I mean, look Republicans manage to talk a lot about Democrats in deep red states who lost their Senate election, dean Heller loss. Swing state. It looks on. Colorado goodness. Really don't look like David turned very blue. But like Martha mcsally like in Arizona. You had a Republican who is a woman who sued the Bush administration to win the legal right to be the first female combat pilot. Like that is I think the best candidate biography that anybody will ever have for race anywhere. And it looks like she's going to lose to a former green party activist who then refashioned herself as a blue dog, and then tried to host flu dog, and then tried to re refashioned herself as progressive when that became unfashionable and who lost two percent of the vote to the green party candidate. Who like that's in Arizona, which is like not a liberal state. And like, I don't know who you can possibly blame for Martha mcsally not crushing Christian cinema of. Other than Donald Trump being a clown. Right. I don't like, I don't know. What else you can say about that? And like, maybe it's all to the good, right? Like there are more mid western states than there are south western states by the numbers. So losing Colorado, Nevada and Arizona in order pick up like the whole rust belt is like not a crazy political calculation. But you know, anyway, I mean, this is back to integrate just like who does this help? Right. Like, this is like Donald Trump is a is a Leech on the conservative movement in America much more than he is like a beating circulating heart that gives it life. And it's weird to me how conservatives have gotten. I think intimidated into denying that. But like they are laboring every day to like keep this ship afloat while Trump is like sure like he mostly rose in their direction. But like every couple of weeks. Just like throws an ordered somebody's head. I feel like I can answer this question by tying in what you were just talking about Matt about the like Arizona versus rust belt into the broader conversation because like the entire political theory of Trumpism is that Donald Trump is is bringing people out to vote who would otherwise be low propensity because they're white voters without college degrees. Which is to say Donald Trump is making low information voters interested enough in politics to show up to the polls, Donald Trump himself is I don't know who said this. But it's perfect. He's the first low information voter president like Donald Trump will routinely say things that make it clear that he could not have cared less about policy or politics before running for president. Most recently was like, oh, nobody ever paid any attention to the midterms and now military's it's this big thing. No, that's not true of anyone else except for Donald Trump. And maybe some Trump voters like maybe that is legitimately true. And so in that respect having Donald Trump is the president. It's not that he's a political genius. It's just that. He's a good one man focus group yet for what people are going to be into. And so the things that breakthrough to those voters aren't necessarily the like regulations that Jeff Sessions is publishing in the Federal Register, they're these big flashy moves to own the lives, you know, people may not be paying obsessive attention to politics, but they're getting their signals about what to care about from people who do pay obsessive attention to politics and carry great deal about owning the lives. Right. It's not just them at Whitaker stuff that also is some policy stuff like you can say I'm going to do this big brash shutting down the borders kind of move on Silom. Like that is oh you're going to tell me that's illegal. Oh, I'm protecting the country. Combat me, bro. Like, there definitely are ways that you can get a session style agenda in these very brash Trumpian terms. And so what's going to be interesting is seeing if that temptation pools enough that it results in things that are just flash and no substance, or whether you continue to tow this middle ground of we're going to find the things that are actually going to matter that also will make annoys for owning the lips. But something I would I wanna point out. And it's something I've argued a lot is that you and I wrote about this. I think before the vox times is that there are a lot of people who believed in a thing called Trumpism among them Jeff Sessions among them. You know, some of the earliest members of the Trump administration who believed that Trump is um existed apart from Trump Trump never believe that Trump recognized that this is all about him and what he wants to do and that his random flailing at healthcare for everyone or being dove or. Something like that was just saying things time that sounded good in his head. Jeff Sessions believed in a version of Trumpism that was about immigration restrictions and putting America first and etcetera etcetera. And now Jeff Sessions has been fired from the Trump administration. You know, one of the earliest and biggest supporters of thing that people believed called Trumpism the people over journal for American greatness, Michael Anton of the world who believe at this thing. This is a phenomenon they could get on board with and then you saw that when the bombings in Syria. You saw a lot of these people start to recognize like there was no such thing as Trumpism there was just Trump this whole time. And I think it's interesting to see how with the mid terms the people who really attempted to mold themselves into Trumpian figures. It turns out not only is it just about Trump. It is only about Trump on the ballot because you saw candidates in South Carolina with Mark Sanford who lost and the. Person who Trump really supported Katie airing tin who basically became like the Trumpy figure in that Rhys she lost. And you saw a time and time again that candidates who did not already have their kind of their own energy their own oxygen. But who just basically turned themselves into their version of what they thought Trump was. I mean, you saw this a little bit with Corey Stewart who basically in recent weeks was attempting to seem less Trumpian. But no one really bought it because he's a Neo confederate from Minnesota. You see that it doesn't work if you're not Trump, and that Trump is Trump ISM. And so it's been fascinating to see as the Republican House. Members who remain I think McKay Coppins wrote a piece on this this week for the Atlantic talking about the the most Trumpy people will remain while a lot of the the people who were even challenging Trump or kind of thinking apart from Trump have either retired or they lost their elections. Which is why they were very mad about never Trump. For saying vote for Democrats because they're like, no, we're just gonna lose all the good Republicans. But the idea that Trump is a separate entity from Trump himself. I think has been shown to be a falsehood. But I think it's also I mean back to such as Winokur it's this incredible lowering of the bar. I think that happens around Trump for conduct but for for policy, right? Like, I don't know what you guys were doing in November twenty ten, but like, I do not recall any liberals looking at those election results. And then saying, well, it's fine that our whole legislative agenda is now dead forever because we can still appoint circuit court judges, right? Like, it was true. And Obama confirmed a lot of circuit court judges. And this was consequential eventually the control of majority of circuits flipped thanks to bomb appointees post twenty ten like he wasn't real thing being eating president matters. But losing the house was was really bad. You know like that. Why like all this stuff change legislation immigration reform, like if Democrats had held a very razor thin house majority. They would've gotten a comprehensive immigration reform Bill Dunn me I mean, maybe not but very plausibly. But like the reason they couldn't do it is that they lost control the house like that's a really big deal. And then again, even if you only care about immigration, right? Like, you know. Immigration activists were not satisfied with what Obama was able to do through executive action on immigration policy because to make really big changes you need to pass laws in like, it's the same in reverse. If you went back four years ago five years ago, right restriction, est. Like, Stephen Miller was not saying my dream is that someday my vision will take over the Republican party will sees power nationally. And as a result, the number of Central American asylum seekers admitted into the interior of the country, pending a hearing will decline right much more ambitious agenda and they're not doing anything to get toward those goals. You keep thinking about it. Like there was this time when it was like, okay, we're going to revoke DACA. We're going to use that as leverage, and then we're going to get something. So okay that made sense. Right. And then you're like, okay. What do you what do you want Donald Trump? And they were like here's a fucking phone book of that. We want. No, we're not going to give you that. And then it went to court and they lost their leverage. And now they're like standing around bidding that they lost their leverage, which is hilarious. Right. And what are you doing really point? Because when we talk about whether people in the Trump White House, no anything there are two different axes of that. Right. Like there are people in the Trump White House who understand the policy areas and through the executive branch wonders policy areas that they're working on. But who have no idea how congress works? And then there are people who may have an idea how congress works, but don't have particular ideas about policy, and may or may not understand that the galaxy brain stuff going on the policy side of the shop isn't the best way in most effective way to go about things like Obama got some crap for not having people in his White House who were for not doing enough to butter up that congress a lot of the time. Donald Trump makes Brock Obama look like LBJ late. There's just so it's kind of worth considering you know, we have six more years of this administration. Like there's gonna continue to be turned over. It's not like people are going to suddenly decide that they're going to stick it out for the duration. So is the Trump administration going to level up in its legislative tacticians is it going to level up in some of its policies stuff is going to like try to replace the institutional knowledge that Jeff Sessions has or is it just going to continue to circle into whoever is close to Trump at that time gets gets higher. Right. It continued kind of leaching up of the Mike Pompeo model. I think it's interesting because I think that there is a moment. I remember it was, you know, thousands of years ago. It was twenty seventeen where there was this conversation that like, oh, there could be worked across the aisle on this infrastructure Bill and coming back. See my article today. Oh, I'm so excited. But there's an idea of Trump in which he becomes this. Person who starts making deals, except we have never actually seen that Trump. We have never seen the Trump. Who is just like. Yeah. I'm going to bring in Schumer and Pelosi. And I remember when they had that meeting on the Oval Office. And there was like, yeah. We can work on some things never happened. They reached an agreement and then they scuttled it. Yeah. And it's interesting to me because I feel as if, you know, Dr you were talking about like, you know, where will they find the institutional knowledge at I'm just like, oh, this version of Trump would be so interesting to see because I mean, I made the point on Twitter that like there's a version of Trump who makes deals and who does the populace thing and who kind of runs as like a Huey long for twenty eighteen and talks a lot about infrastructure and the actual solutions for the opioid crisis. And he had this whole thing this week about like, I've got a solution to abortion, and I won't tell you what it is. But this there's Zia of Trump in which this is a real. Real thing that can happen at. I'm looking at you, Dr at I'm thinking, no only two years into the Trump administration. We're already so bored with the actual Trump administration that we're inventing these alternate universe. Trump administration. Right. More interesting. It's red. I do kind of think that the fact that we have a president who says he has a secret plan to fight abortion. And meanwhile, is bragging to all of his buddies. And and having them bragged to the press that he knows exactly how he's going to deal with the incoming house majority because he's gonna turn these young progressives against Nancy Pelosi. And they'll never know. What's coming? It is not what you would expect of an administration that understands it's weakness either on policy or legislation then what administration that would be that understood its weaknesses. Yeah. I guess we've depressed ourselves enough that we should probably wrap up for the week sounds gate. So we understand our weaknesses for podcasting. And I hope that you join us in that. I hope you check out the weeds Facebook group if he would like to continue their thanks, Jane and Tara, thanks to our producer Griffin, Tanner. Thanks to our sponsors will return on Tuesday. Hey, weeds listeners emerald project. I went to what you know about a new season of the history of fun podcast available now in the past we've gone deep into the hidden back stories of the things you love from Neo pets. It was a huge scientologist. Our of Dianetics guiding him he signed on CEO of Neo pets too happy meals. So the first choice weren't great. They kind of sucked doesn't matter. Because while you're getting free surprise. We're an employee your food to toys R us before he became Jeffrey. He looks actually I think it was the first version of Jeffrey also is like very animal like, oh, you're a Taraf for this new season. We're diving into the strange world of holiday traditions like where did trick or treating even come from. Or how about the origins of the mighty and terrible anti-santa cramps. Joined the history of fun a weekly jaunt guaranteed to warm up your holiday season. This now on podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

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Amanpour: Keith Ellison, Anne Applebaum, Eliot Cohen and Vanita Gupta

Amanpour

56:01 min | 6 months ago

Amanpour: Keith Ellison, Anne Applebaum, Eliot Cohen and Vanita Gupta

"Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. We want you all over the world to stand with him. For eight minutes and forty six seconds. And make that commitment for justice. In the name of George, as the world watches justice for George Floyd is in the hands of this man Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison. He joins US then. How will history regard? Donald Trump's defenders and how does the World Look at Donald Trump's America I speak with the former State Department official Elliott Colin and Pulitzer Prize winning historian author and Applebaum and later Vanita Gupta headed up the civil rights division after the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson Missouri now. She weighs in on comprehensive police reform. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour working from home in London. Where here and all around the world protesters continue to on justice for George Floyd as United States, senators stood out for eight minutes and forty six seconds today the time it took for Floyd to die with knee in his neck, the job of making the case against the officers charged in his death falls to my first guest tonight. That is the Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison. Ellison is no stranger himself to controversy as America's first Muslim congressman, he was a prime target of the right wing smear machine. Now he faces an unprecedented challenge winning a conviction in justice system that traditionally favours the police ellison filed charges against all four officers involved Derek chauvinist pin floyd to the ground for nearly nine minutes charged with second and third degree, murder and manslaughter. Talk to Tau. Jay Alexander King and Thomas Lane, the other officers at the scene, each charged with aiding and abetting second degree, murder and manslaughter. This is unprecedented, but even at this critical moment in American history, even as it unfolds reminders of the disturbing reality police in Buffalo New York Shalva. Seventy five year, old man who fell to the ground bleeding from his ear, he remains in serious but stable condition and images of New York. State senator clearly identified who says police pepper sprayed him and others at a peaceful protests in Brooklyn New York amid all of this Keith Ellison me now from his office in Saint Paul Minnesota Welcome to the program. Attorney General let me just I. Huge challenge that faces you with prosecuting and leading the charges in this case when you see the. Aspects of police brutality in some instances continue even now. How hard a job! Is this going to be in court and in the Court of Public, opinion? We'll be a difficult job in court. As, you know. There are a lot of cases where people looked at video or other evidence. Just sure that justice was served and wasn't Rodney King many years ago. You may recall that the first jury acquitted, but not not just didn't Flannel Casteel case right here in Minnesota video and he was acquitted. So we don't look at. This is some sort of a easy road that we're on, but we're going to work extremely hard. We're GONNA. Make sure that link in the prosecutorial chain is very tight or going to put everything we have into it and I trust that jurors on this case. If we end up with a jury, trial will see the evidence in a way that they should. which is that these individuals are guilty. Let me ask you. Some of the nuts and bolts of the case, of course you started by charging the one show Shelvin who had his neck, injured his knee and George Floyd's neck with third degree. ETC, then you up that to second degree. Can you tell me why what led you to do that? And is there a greater burden of proof to make that charge stick? No, the burden of proof is still proved beyond a reasonable doubt. In any case, but we as our investigation was ongoing. We continue to collect information body camera medical information medical examiner's reports other pieces of information. We came to the conclusion. That second degree murder was the right charge in the case of Mr Charleston. We needed to upgrade it based on the facts and the law. That was available to us. And then with the others, and that took several days, and some people ask why that took a long time again they're charged with aiding and abetting the charges as laid out against shaven. What can you tell us about them? Because already we're hearing from their defense. At least one of them that they are going to say they tried to get Shaaban off and they tried to do the right thing. What are you hearing about that? And what can you tell us about it? What I can tell you is that as Charleston was clearly assaulting. Mr. Floyd. or at least evidence would indicate that that it does appear that term. Nobody move nobody assisted. In, so look. The jury will decide ultimately what they believe happened in this case our complaint. Indicates that they rendered assistance as in. Effected Assault and the consequence being a murderer in depth up or George Floyd, you cannot assist in the commission of a crime, and if you do, you would be considered an eight arena better. Attorney General. It's quite unusual that you have been, or you'll rank your position as being put on. This case is usually the prosecutor. The governor himself asked you to take this case are in. Concert with the Floyd family so I WANNA. Ask you of the institutional difficulties particularly in Minnesota. The head of the Police Union, who name is Bob Crawl. His called George. Floyd a violent criminal, and he's describe those protesting his death as terrorists and he's criticized the city's. Political leadership I guess including you for not taking all of that into consideration so i. how do you answer a somebody like crawl? Who is the police union chief and has a huge amount of power and influence in issues of accountability? And what do you say about what they might say about George? Floyd Well I tape no time to address those kind of remarks. We're GONNA do. It in the courtroom? But I. DO think it is important for people understand that. George Floyd was loved by his family and his friends, and if you doubt that you should look at all the people who've come out to His life, and Look he's the first one to say that like all people. He's made mistakes, but he is a good person about the people who knew him well, and that includes his lawyers that includes other people who knew him, and that included folks who who are in his family, and so I have to go by the people who knew him best. I think it is not good when The image of the victim. Gets tarnished situations like this. YOU KNOW MR? Floyd's not on trial. Those other those four people who are charging the complaint are. and so I just think it's unfortunate that. A comment like that will be made. Indeed and that's why one has to bring it up so that I ask you again about this Guy Bob. Crawl, who's also quite controversial? He has a very. Longstanding support of president trump. He's being rallies with him. ETC, on is taking that language that language that's coming from the White, house but particularly important is. You know when it comes to police accountability. Police unions are very very INCR- influential and important to this you know, do you think? You don't no matter what happens. This particular union chief is going to be helpful when it comes to not just this case, but the issue of police reform in your state. You know. I'm going to dodged the question I'm sorry for that I think that me going into my opinion about Bob. Dole doesn't serve my goal of trying to get justice for George. Floyd so hope you will forgive me for not going into that. I will answer this question, though yes, we need reform in the area of the Police Union to make sure that that chief can actually have disciplinary control over the force. What has happened historically, is it? The chief has fired or disciplined officers for misconduct, and then through the arbitration process. The arbitrator restores them in contravention to the chiefs. Decision and that's not a good thing. It needs to be in control of the of the department. And then the people need to control. I mean need to keep the chief accountable, but now the cheap can say I I did far. But what's going to happen next if the arbitrator just sticks back on the force? Yes, this is very troubling. Which is why bring it up and people should know about it in addition shopping at least had many complaints against him over the years, and on top of all of that as you say. George Floyd and everybody can see. It was not being violent was not resisting arrest. His friend comes out and says exactly what happened that. He was a cooperating until he was violently. Shoved to the ground and a knee in his neck, so there's plenty of evidence of the whole world to see about that so I wanted to ask you them. Because this leads to this next question, it's about qualified immunity this thing that the Supreme Court has ruled on which seems to allow police in various cases to claim that in terms of saying that their lives were at risk or their safety and security. Can you explain that for us and how that? How? You might have to deal with that in this case? Well you know there are. A diverse set of laws that help maintain the status quo. In some ways help prevent. Change happening in this particular case. I think that. There we I think we have a strong case and I'm very confident in our case because. It's someone is lying on the ground. As as someone might view the tape, and certainly we put this in our complaint already, and if someone is response unresponsive in handcuffs, not presenting a threat been there is no legitimate use of force in that situation so I am concerned that I'm I'm convicted of the belief that. Anyone claiming that it was a reason for force of the kind that was to him. Just doesn't have any justification to do so. And just one more on this because again, it's important when it comes to the jury process. How does this issue of qualified immunity affect the instructions to juries get? Has it limited? Just tell me what you what you know about that, and what might happen in this case? Well in this particular case. I, don't I? Don't believe that is going to be a factor. We are we intend to debate the law and we'll, and that is if I were to have, but my understanding of the law is that we're not going to have to deal with qualified immunity problem. Because how could they because first of all? It's a civil concept. And their immune from a lawsuit if they're operating. Under certain guidelines. But this is not this is the state prosecuting them for criminal conduct, not an individual suing them for a financial damages, so it really wouldn't apply in this case, but I will say that there are certain immunities that they're certain. Allowances that officers have to use deadly force. But. I'd be very curious to see anybody claiming that they were in fact, intending to use deadly force. In this situation, that would be a curious development. So I. Just want to kind of ask you to pause for a second and answer the question that some of. The rapid nature you know under careful investigation of bringing the charges. It's unprecedented. We know that in the Eric Garner case. It took years to bring any charges. In this case it took days. Some are worried that you know. Maybe you worry, too that there may be quote unquote unreasonable expectations that society not to mention George. Freud's family and friends and the African American community might think that does some. There's some pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for want of a better. Some real hope that things are going to change. Tell me what you think about that. You're in the hot seat now. Well, you know a very wise woman her name was Mary Ellen Notre she was a state legislator. One Time said to me. Keith, our constituents don't expect us to always be successful, but the inspectors to always be. So I, take it upon myself to everything I have. Everything officer has into the successful prosecution of this case, ultimately others not us will decide whether they believe the case. Cases proved beyond a reasonable doubt, but we will lead no STUDT. No stone unturned in. We will present a very strong case. To the jury and the fact is the outcome ultimately will be in the hands of somebody else, so we're going to control what we control and we're GonNa, and that's what we're gonNA. Do and we have faith in? A jury to find effects except in our complaint. Let me, just read some statistics which I'm sure. Be Making the rounds. They really tragic. Black residents make up about twenty percent of the population in Minneapolis and yet they represent sixty percent of its police shooting victims between two thousand, nine and two thousand and nineteen police killings have not fallen significantly since the twenty thirteen and as I said it's been almost six years since. The murders of Michael Brown and Eric. Garner and little has changed about how poor black communities are being policed It's even. It's even hard to imagine that there is an actual live debate going on about whether there is institutional racism in the United States one of president. Trump's key cabinet officials is national security advisor said there wasn't and of course Kelly Conway Kellyanne Conway the president's chief advisor contradicted that, but so has your police chief. Let's just play what he said this week. When faced with that sentence from the White House. Of course there is. It's not just in police departments across this country. My goodness, there's stomach racism within a pretty much everything in this country you look at the discrepancies. The disproportionate rates when you look at healthcare when you look at jobs when you look at economics when you look at policing I mean the list goes on and on and on if we turn a blind eye to that, we're never going to move forward together. So, he's obviously saying it like it is and the Minneapolis Minnesota Council is meeting the City Council I think the Minneapolis City Council is meeting to talk about immediate. Immediate sort of interim steps. That could be taken when it comes to police reform. Can you tell us a little about that and what you expect to see? Well I think that cheaper Dondo was right. If you can't face it, you certainly can't fix it. But like if I may say so, Christiane you know for two hundred and forty three years African Americans in America were held in bondage or another one hundred years. We had legalized. second-class citizenship is only been fifty five years of anything else, and those last fifty five years have been marked by disparities in every aspect of American life. including the ones that she dondo mentioned, but also education and many an incarceration, many other kinds of things, so it is before us to try to fix this historic problem it's we didn't cause it, but it's on our lap to fix it, and so I'm probably the city council is taking this thing seriously. They're not just saying it's not us. We don't know what you're talking about, not our. They're saying you know what we're going to make this moment count and do something about it and I'm probably they're taking it seriously, also proud of the governor and the Commissioner of Public Safety, but I will tell you the last year last year me Anna. Commissioner of Public Safety in Minnesota leading working group on reducing deadly forcing conners. We came up with a number of critical recommendations. They've got to be implemented, not implemented yet, but we did come up with those recommendations and the state legislature is beginning to really look at them. I! Think that it's important for us to use this moment as a moment of real change, because the opportunities in front of us, and we can do it if we stick to it and if we all get a little bit more honest about history of our country. and. We don't need anybody's guilt or shame or blame, but we do need them to work constructively to get us to a better place. Attorney General Keith Ellison. Thank you very much for joining US tonight. Now when riot police cleared peaceful protesters outside White House on Monday, it was a tipping point for many in the US, military and veteran Republican strategist Stuart Stevens. He has just spoken out on twitter alongside this famous picture from Tiananmen Square. He says the Republican Party a lot of signed up for was a party that supported the guy standing alone. Not The guy in the tank, but Donald Trump was a different has a different view for those of us who haven't changed. We have no respect for the pro tank, Republican, Party. So how did it evolve from the Party of Lincoln and Reagan to the Party of the guy in the tank. In a new article for the Atlantic called, history will judge the complicit. Pulitzer Prize winning historian and Applebaum looks at enables collaborators all the way back from World War. And indeed under Soviet communism and a former State Department official Elliot Cohen saw the writing on the wall from the very beginning, he wrote this article a clarifying moment in American history. When did you write it just a week after president trump's inauguration, also in the Atlantic. And Applebaum Elliot Cohen Welcome to the program. Can I just start by asking you? Elliott Code you know you wrote that article, which pretty much lays out chapter and verse of what's unfolded over the last three years since he wrote it plus. How did you know how how did you be? How were you so pressing just exactly what you warned in that article? So, thank you Christiane for for having me here and it's great to be with here with my colleague and Apple. Disney is that other people didn't see it? My judgment was based simply a judgment of character and Donald Trump's character was an open book from day one, and what is astonishing is how people were able to deceive themselves that he would be anything else of in that article what I emphasized was the the narcissism. The cruelty the the complete recklessness, the ignorance of and disregard for Constitution and liberal democratic norms, and I could go on and on, but it requires no special insight to see that it really didn't of the real story. Here is the one that an documents so powerfully so beautifully if I can use that word in her article in the Atlantic. Well, you know I'm going to use a your quote. And then I'm going to turn to, and because you'll quote also says we were right and friends who urged us to tone it down. I'll criticism or to make peace with him to stop saying loudly as we could. This is abnormal to accommodate him to show loyalty to the Republican Party to think that he and his advisors could be tamed were wrong so am. In your article, you our forensic in how you describe the differences between. And collaborating. or standing on principle from the World War, two occupation, for instance in France, the vichy government, or indeed from puppet regimes in the so-called. Blog. Just. Sum Up if you can, and some of what you've written about, and how it applies to today, because you bring it all the way to support and enabling of Donald Trump. So what I tried to do in the article was show Americans that some of the behavior that they're seeing in their own country has echoes from the past in other words that the kind of language that's being used excuses that people are making. The strategies they're adopting. These are familiar from other times and other places. Americans always have this idea themselves and it's understandable why. They've been so lucky. We've been so lucky in in our history. We have this idea that we're exceptional that our history has no relationship to other other histories actually from the beginning of of the United States. We've always love ourselves as very different from Europe very. With our own ethos in our own kind of politics, nothing like that. And yet in Washington over the last three years I'm not. They're all the time, but I come in and out I'm I'm I. Live partly in Europe and partly. Visit frequently in the United States. I began hearing. People say things to me. That sounded like. Stories that I'd written about I. I've written books about the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe. I've read a lot about about the history of occupied France and other parts of Europe and they sounded to me like people living in an occupied country, and by that I didn't mean that trump is Hitler or trump is Stalin, or anything like that I mean that people who are working in the trump administration and the high levels in the Pie. Levels of the Republican Party including in Congress had the feeling that they had been taken over by an alien ideology. And many people at the beginning thought that it was America first. It was about as kind of super patriotism. It was about maybe even a kind of populism. We're going to do more for working people and so, but actually what happened in Washington was nothing like that. What we saw was really trump i. we saw a president focused on himself and his personal needs his psychological needs. His political needs and a president who tried to subordinate all the instruments of the state to himself and his order in other words, not someone who's acting in the interests of the American people are in the interest of the Republican Party but himself, and as I say as people began to understand that they began to accommodate in some in actually in some honorable ways, people said well I can try and do something good I'll I have an important job in the administration I can try chief something, and some people said well I can protect the American state from the president. That was actually an argument that we heard. Very vocally from anonymous. If you remember the article. It Was New York Times a some months ago. In which the author said I'm a high-ranking trump official and I am I. My. I understand my job is to protect the country from the dangerous of the President I. Mean you heard that? A series of of other excuses all the way up to some of the very worst ones, which I can take advantage of the situation. Or I can save the country from something even worse namely the the horrors of my opposition. And, the article I said simply breaks down those pieces. Yeah, and also said that anonymous which you just mentioned actually didn't quit is still in the administration. As far as we know so Elliott Co an. Anonymous still there, but all these now since Monday former ranking military officials and defense secretaries, and the names of piling up are now coming out against president trump's. Obviously the dispersal of peaceful protesters and the idea of basically bringing the active duty military out onto the street I want you to analyze the level of bravery and import. That has right now. What does it mean that these retired offices? Doing it now never did it before. And where will it lead? Will. Have had retired. Officers engaged various forms of partisan politics, so a retired general officers make political stay not entirely new, but what's striking, though is the seniority, and and actually who the particular individuals are, and I would focus on two in particular Jim Mattis. former, four-star, general, former Secretary of Defense and Admiral, Mike Mullen former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff they both made extraordinarily forceful and eloquent statements, they both I I happen to know personally are very very mindful of of the norms of military neutrality about politics, staying out of partisan politics, they both have a deep aversion to it. Both have worked for both Republicans and Democrats for them to step forward and say the things that they have said is really truly extraordinary, and they're only doing it. I think because they are afraid that this president would if he could. Use the military to suppress dissent, and that's a ally that they never. Crossed and. They really do speak very much for the senior leadership of the American military. I know quite a few generals and admirals I can assure you that they are on the whole as horrified as anybody else by what's going on both. The reaction to the murder of George Floyd and other incidents of that kind, but but also to the side of seeing the secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Essentially, accompanied the president in as he walked through a park that have been cleared of peaceful protesters. Would not. We're not under a curfew. that. They just thought that that was horrifying. Spectacle in it triggered state. was there truly unprecedented. You wrote again in this piece prescient piece, three or four three years ago. You said it will probably end in calamity, talking about the administration, substantial domestic protests and violence, a breakdown of international economic relationships, the collapse of major alliances or perhaps one or more new wars, even with China on top of the ones. We already have again I. Mean You could tick off a few there. They've already taken place, did you? I mean. Do you think these people who are dissenting right now? Care about this stuff, or is it really just about the use of the military because a lot of stuff? Has Happened Elliott. Cure I believe they have to speak for themselves, but I think they cared much more broadly about all kinds of issues I think. The norm for the best of our senior military leaders of not speaking out even when they're really unhappy about what's going on, and even after the retirement is very very strong. You know and I think they also felt a particular need to speak out about the use of. Two. Reasons one is because that's their world. That is what they've given their lives two decades upon decades of of service, sometimes extraordinarily trying. Circumstances so that's their world and touches them absolutely to the core, but they also understand that this is unusually an extraordinarily dangerous any military organisation, but particularly the military has enormous and data, overwhelming reserves of force at its disposal for that to be in the hands of a an. A tyrant Let's put it that way because that's what he would like to be even if he can't be. is a terrifying thought, and so they're willing to step aside from some of the norms that they've lived by in support of much greater and more important norms, and they've had an effect. I think that's an important thing to bear in mind if you look at statements. Statements of Secretary Esper- and of chairman of joint, staff, a milli a I think they were stunned by some of the responses they got I suspect they had their own misgivings, and it's resulted in actually wave of statements from seniors active duty, American military leaders as well as of the retards, reminding everybody of the fact that the armed forces served the constitution, not a single individual. So let's move for the ministry to the Republican leadership. Then you heard. I quoted Stewart Stevenson, he is. You Know Donna Mayor? Copa that. Yes, we were part of building this very sort of partisan Republican party, but nothing that we imagined would be like this and he you saw said. We don't want to be the party of the guy in the tank in Tiananmen Square. We were the policy of the guy standing up for freedom alone in front of that awful might of that tank so Republican leadership has not come out, and a at all, commented or denounced or distance itself from some of these violations of constitutional protections, so let me just play for you. Senator Lisa mcaliskey. This is what she has just said in response to a gym, Mattis and the mounting criticism at least in the military. Quarters let's just play this. When I saw General Mattis comments yesterday. I felt like. Perhaps we're getting to the point where we can be more honest. With. The concerns that we might hold. Internally. And have the courage of our own convictions. Speak Up. Yikes, that is not exactly a profile encourage. Perhaps we might maybe try to be more honest. And how do you read that? And what do you think that says for the political elected leadership? So what Lisa Murkowski just said. Reflects what most Republican senators are I won't say all or many. Republican senators say behind closed doors, so I've heard from Democratic senators. Who who tell me what their colleagues tell them I've heard from others many of them have known from the beginning that trump is a problem and many of them made the kinds of excuses. I was talking about before well. At least we'll get our judges through or. At least will win some elections or they they they made excuses for him. even knowing that he was dangerous, even knowing that he was crossing all kinds of lines. But? I I think the point of your question is also you know these are very powerful people a US senator? Is, somebody with a lot of you know a lot of popular support a lot of possibilities. Why would people like that? Why would someone like Murkowski say well? I think it's getting to be time to say. Something would've been so afraid of so far. You almost feel fear in their voices. They're afraid of being attacked by the president, or they're afraid of being. He'll say something about them on twitter. When you look back at again other times and places, and you see that kind of cowardice. Think, about countries where people went to jail for speaking out, and yet they managed to do it or people who were arrested for speaking out in societies like that. You can understand it, but US senators have a lot of independence. They have their own platforms. What was stopping them? And as I said, it's a series uses combined with fear. It's really not an attractive site. So let me go back to Cohen's piece again. Because this is what you say, you up Elliot Cohen about trump, he will fail because he cannot corrupt the courts, and because even the most of senator sooner or later will say enough he will fail most of all, because at the end of the day, most Americans including most of those who voted for him a decent people who have no desire to live in an American version of Erdogan's Turkey or Orban's Hungary or Putin's Russia. Ya. That was three and a half years ago, and that hasn't quite happened. And I just wonder whether you to have been seduced by the notion of American exceptionalism. Because you say the greatness of America will save America. Do you still believe that the institutions? Are Strong enough to survive. Yes absolutely. If you? WanNa call me seduced by American exceptionalism. Plead guilty. To plead guilty to underestimating the cowardice of Republican politicians at that level, and I think that's the word one should use its cowardice, but I think this country is bigger than that and ultimately stronger than that. And as as the Times are, it is a terrible error to to ignore the things that are positive, and that includes those areas example. We've seeing police marching with protesters you know there's a great story that seventy, eighty, seven, at the end of the constitutional convention of Benjamin Franklin was being carried away in his sedan chair. He was old and infirm. And the proceedings have been a secret and he was asked by the crowd. What kind of government have you given us? Dr Franklin and his reply was a republic. If you can keep it. The founders understood that American democracy was an experiment. That would require sacrifice and vigilance and effort that was true then, and that remains true. Now Lincoln understood that Washington understood that Franklin. Roosevelt understood that Ronald Reagan understood that. There's a lot of good leadership in this country even as we speak and we see it in. Students. And I'm you know we're passing through a terrible time? But you know my grandparents lived through much worse times in this country including waves of lynchings and the red scare. And the Great Depression and McCarthyism and all the rest. It's a strong resilient country I do believe that the institutions are greater than any single individual, but that doesn't mean that we can sit back and not fight and where we're. I'm ashamed of the Party. That I used to belong to the Republican. Party is how few of them have the guts to fight. We will keep watching this story Elliot Cohen Thank You for joining US Anne Applebaum for joining US tonight. Doing more searching than streaming these days. Say hello to HBO Max the New Way to stream all of HBO. God He's lost the greatest collection of movies. Introduce. Music Joker Beloved TV. New Max originals for everyone in the family. All of your favorites all in one place. To go on just you and me HBO. Max starts streaming today, download the APP or visit Hbo Max Dot Com to start your free trial. Free trial is for new customers, only restrictions apply. Now as America continues to wrestle with racism and police brutality, we turn to someone who's a major player in criminal justice reform. She is Vanita. Gupta was a civil rights lawyer and she was acting assistant attorney general under President Obama. She led the investigation into the Ferguson Missouri Police Department after the fatal shooting of Michael Brown six years ago and today Gupta heads the leadership conference on Civil and human rights with a mission to protect the rights of all Americans and she's joining Hari Sreenivasan now. Thanks Christiane beneath. When you see the news and you see peaceful protests by day. Turn into something else by night. What goes through your mind? I am really concerned about the message of honoring Mr Floyd's life getting lost and concerned about the incredible militarization that we're seeing on the streets right now. That could actually provoke violence in losing the message that I think protesters the vast majority of protesters are trying to show which is. that. We've been through the cycle of violence in our age too many times, and that enough is enough and so. Right now in Washington DC feels like an occupied zone when protesters the irony here being that they are protesting police brutality brutality, but it looks like the government is using police brutality militarization as a response to these protests I. don't see how it builds trust. Police are GONNA. Say Listen if we let. Fires, continue or perhaps looting continue. This'll only. Empower others to come. It will create more lawlessness. Of course, law enforcement has to get involved where property is being burned. There's looting and violence, but the response that we are seeing on the streets right now is not. Proportionate, it's it. Is Not safe. It is a demonstration of military force that is so beyond what is happening on the streets and it really looks like the Attorney General has deputised himself to be a general of this mishmash of federal agents from across different law enforcement components. They're showing up in the streets without actual training in ask managing mass protests. They're showing up in the streets. Some many of them wearing tactical gear without any form of identification on these are these are bad practices for law enforcement. This is something. The Justice Department actually addressed in Ferguson when the Ferguson Police Department was showing up in the streets after Michael Brown was killed without id in the like. These are these are scary times, not just because of what happened to Mr Floyd along cycle of violence and police, related violence, and the issues underlying all of this, but also I think not fundamentally for our democracy. You ran the office of Civil Rights for the Department of Justice for about three years. After Ferguson you started your job right after that I remember during the Obama. Administration you put in place? Some of the checks for constitutional policing checks on different. Different police departments we'll get into what happened to those, but explained one of them which was looking at patterns and practices. What does that mean so? Justice Department has a range of different tools to use in to reform and ensure constitutional policing. One of them is one is the only one that the Justice Department is folks far out of Mr Floyd staff, not as a criminal investigation, which they are conducting of individual, the individual officers that were at the scene. But the other big kind of prominent tool that people often talk about is the pattern practice authority that Congress gave to the Justice Department in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four in the aftermath of the Rodney King, beating the unrest in Los Angeles gave a the Justice Department the mandate to investigate. Systems patterns and practices of unconstitutional policing in police departments, and then the mandate to rectify these unconscious unconstitutional stomach issues where the Justice Department find some. It's a tool that is Bureau judiciously used for country of eighteen thousand police departments by I think during the course of president. Obama's eight years there were twenty five investigations by the time. I step down, there were fifteen consent decrees, but these consent decrees actually become documents that model best practices at. Some of the most emergent S. practices around the country that other police departments look to to adopt, and this is a tool that the trump DOJ that jeff sessions and now bill bar have completely walked away from They've opened only one parent practice investigation into the narrowest of issues in department Springfield Massachusetts but by, but otherwise completely walked away from this work. They've got the use of consent decrees as a tool that civil rights division has to remediate systemic issues. And they've undercut not only kind of the tools that the justice has but with their rhetoric. This notion that trust community police trust is essential for public safety. They their rhetoric has has actually really inflamed, the tensions and divisions somebody's GonNa Watch this interview and said look. She was running the division on civil rights. She was in the Department of Justice. Why wasn't the Obama Administration? Able to do more, so we did a lot. But it wasn't perfect. We were still kind of midstream on the work that we had to do but understand this so. I was accused of having too aggressive of an approach around policing. But I met all the time with lawns or snapped I met with police officers I met with mothers who had lost their sons to police violence, and we went in and used our investigative authority I think entirely appropriately, but we also had a lot of other things going on in the Obama Justice Department you had attorney general holder who was trying to through his smile. Smile on Crime Initiative Change Federal prosecutorial charging culture across the country to to remove the way the kind of reliance on mandatory minimum sentencing that was resulting in people, spending years and years and years in federal prison outside of any public safety rationale. You had the guidance to limit and curtail the militarization of police in the transfer of military equipment to local law enforcement. Guidance to end the reliance on private prisons in the Federal Prison System the guidance to stop use of solitary confinement in almost in most cases in the federal system. The. Guidance to stop a use of a fines and fees in the criminalization of poverty, every single one of the things that I just talked about. Was Withdrawn. And or with the tool, and the the work was entirely halted, so we aren't gonNA. Do able to do enough if all we are aiming at for is to reinstate these things. We're GONNA have to actually adopt a even bolder approach. But I there was a lot that was happening. That was entirely Jank te back. And we have a president as you well know who has also encouraged in speeches, police violence, encouraging and twenty seventeen to rough up suspects when putting them in police cars the attorney general. WHO SAID IF PEOPLE WANNA criticize the police, they may not receive the protection of of law enforcement. That kind of stuff has a really powerful impact on corroding the kind of relationship between law enforcement in communities, and certainly you takes away the pressure that was being brought to bear to infer police departments to adopt as practices thankfully. There are a lot of progressive police chiefs that understand why they've needed to continue this work. even any absence of leadership from the Justice Department and the administration, but it is, it takes time and we aren't going to solve these problems overnight. You just getting back to the Department of Justice for second. Attorney General sessions argument for nursing. The scope of consent decrees was if I understand it correctly that deprives the elected representatives that are in those jurisdictions to control their own government. Sometimes he's consent. Decrees go on for too long that they didn't have clear and what's wrong with his rationale. So. That's not true Let me let me break this down a little bit. So consent decrees are monitor the what is a consent decree for small. The Justice Department goes into a jurisdiction conducts an investigation. It can take anywhere from six months to a year going through every document and a police department, interviewing hundreds of community residents, interviewing hundreds of police officers will come up with a findings report, and if the findings reveal non concentrate on unconstitutional pattern or practice of police, misconduct or systemic problems. Will then the Justice Department will begin to negotiate with the city for a consent decree that becomes a document, a settlement agreement that has filed with the Federal Court and a federal judge than has to monitor with a whole independent monitoring team, compliance, and Will determine when a police department has changed its practices, and is now complying with the constitution that process usually takes a few years at least but typically these consent decrees are about you know three to five years long. In. A federal judge is actually dealing in data and is getting data driven reports for monitors about the changes, the impact changes that are getting made from everything from policies to practices to training the like. So these are not infinite on ending consent decrees. So when you had those consent decrees on police departments jurisdictions are cities. Did they work? Did you get buying from the police chiefs? Times. We actually found that the police chiefs. US IN US in. It was a mayors to so if you think about Baltimore. In the aftermath of Freddie Gray's death and the that ensued in the city over the course of several days. It was the mayor and the police commissioner of that said we need the Justice Department in. Baltimore to help us. These issues have been going on for years that decades and they felt like this kind of. Intervention was going to be needed to kind of quell a the community unrest to make people feel like change might be around the corner. It's not a perfect process. It doesn't resolve every problem in police department. There is no such thing as perfect police department, but I want to say one thing about this and I think this is important in this is what makes this moment a little different? which is that it has become very apparent that to me at least and I think to a lot of other people that we will not be able to actually have meaningful police reform by working within police departments alone. And that a lot of times what we are seeing in? PLACES LIKE MINNEAPOLIS CHICAGO. Baltimore Ferguson at Seattle Cleveland all of these different places that have been really could have hot spots for community police unrest. Is that the policing issues are the tip of the spear in that we as a country have for decades really have adopted criminalization model in criminalization as social policy for so many things. That's why we've seen kind of growth in arrest rates, the massive growth in our prison system, mass incarceration, and that without actually addressing the divestment in unity's in terms of jobs, education, public transportation health care in the over investment in the criminalization model in all of the infrastructure that exists around that. We actually are never gonNA. Have meaningful police reform. Is there a department that has turned things around that has? Looked at the consent decree that reports and said okay. This is what we're going to have to do. Here's how we can fix it and now has better outcomes. Yeah, there are an I. You know new new, Orleans. Detroit are wildly different places than they were before are the perfect now? Are there still tragic incidents and systemic problems that exist? Yes, a concentric creek can't solve everything. But what it can do is actually over the course of several years. Because you know changing policies is one thing you need a change them, we we've the Justice Department had gone into jurisdictions that didn't have updated policies on use of force for using old fourth amendment. Jurisprudence to guide how they were conducting searches and arrests. So yes, you need policies. But it takes years of investment leadership, law, enforcement, leadership, political leadership community leadership to actually be engaged in trying to overhaul the way. A police department in public safety is conducted in a community what I will say is that this intervention model of only engaging within police departments is is not going to be the whole answer and I think a lot of people as I said a lot of folks, law enforcement actually speak to that issue. They are a lot of social problems have been put at their feet. Feet, and on a lot of communities, the only response that community members have to seeking help is a nine one one call, and that is because we have divested from mental health services from other kinds of interventions that exists in a place like Seattle I WANNA get concrete one of the major changes that we made that the Justice Department made when they were in Seattle was actually changing the way that police officers would respond to a call about a person in mental health crisis and it was Involved a collaboration with mental health professionals who would arrive at the scene as first responders with police officers in actually engage in immediate de-escalation. With police officers who had been trade totally trained new deescalation. and. It changed the outcomes in how arrester be made and acts of. Violence use of force against people. Mental health crisis repeated that model in Cleveland where there was a real systemic problem around police violence against people mental health crisis, so you can see I mean that's just one little index that I'm talking about There's been these studies we need to do more in the science and the data. We don't have the kind of. Of Data that the United States of America in two thousand twenty should have. The government still is not systematically collecting data to know how many people have died hands of of law enforcement. We've had to have media The Guardian The Washington Post other reporters and activist actually start to pull this together. The FBI's beginning to, but there's no reason for that. And the data will help actually inform both the problems, but also the effectiveness of the solution such that we can scale those group, the leadership conference on Civil and human rights. Thanks so much for joining us you. And finally tonight, activists want to make sure anyone traveling this road to the White House will see this message. They are painting giant yellow letters along two blocks, spelling black lives matter while the mayor of Washington DC has renamed a street outside the White House black. Lives Matter Plaza. That is it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

George Floyd president US Donald Trump Times America Justice Department attorney Christiane Amanpour Elliot Cohen Minnesota Republican Party Attorney General Keith Ellison Party Washington murder Anne Applebaum
Democracy Now! 2019-02-21 Thursday

Democracy Now! Audio

59:01 min | 1 year ago

Democracy Now! 2019-02-21 Thursday

"From pacifica. This is democracy. Now the dealer today. Shen Parmenides tied in the demonization of the poor Jews under Hitler problem dioxide is actually a benefit to the world. And so were the twos. President Trump is considering naming a prominent climate change denier to head a new White House panel looking at the national security implications of global warming the official William pepper has long claimed increasing the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will actually benefit humans. We'll speak to David Wallace wells, author of the new book the uninhabitable earth life after warming. A lot worse than people think in part because scientists and journalists have not really told the full story of what was happening. We used to be told that it was coming centuries down the road. In fact, it's right now in the present. And we're doing that damage ourselves in real time. We used to be told that it was an issue of sea level rise. In fact, it's an all encompassing threat. It will affect agriculture year yields conflict economic growth. In fact, there's really no life on planet earth won't be affected by it in the coming century. First criminal Justice advocates have scored a victory as a supreme court limits. The ability of states to seize property and impose excessive fees on people accused of crimes the case was filed by a man in Indiana after state officials seized his forty two thousand dollar landrover after he was caught selling drugs for two hundred twenty five dollars. We'll speak with a former judge and Justice department official who now campaigns against excessive fines, all that and more. Coming up. Welcome to democracy now democracy now dot or the warrant piece report, I'm Amy Goodman in Maryland and active duty Coast Guard Lieutenant will appear in court today after being arrested last Friday after federal investigators uncovered a domestic terror plot to kill high profile liberal figures, including democratic lawmakers media personalities and judges forty nine year old Christopher Paul Hossan. A self-described white nationalist reportedly had a stockpile of fifteen guns in more than one thousand rounds of ammunition. His hitlist included house speaker Nancy Pelosi civil rights pioneer. Angela Davis freshman congress members I'll Exantia Cossio Cortez and Ilhan Omar MSNBC hosts Chris Hayes and democratic presidential hopefuls senators Kirsten gillibrand Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker Kamla Harris among others. Hossan was reportedly inspired by the far right Norwegian terrorist. Anders Breivik who in two thousand eleven killed seventy seven people in a bomb attack a mass shooting in draft Email obtained by prosecutors Hossan wrote, quote, I am dreaming of a way to kill almost every last person on the earth court documents also revealed he wanted to quote establish a white homeland. The White House is organizing a new committee to examine whether climate change poses a threat to national security as many interim government says it does Trump is considering naming Princeton University, professor emeritus and White House science advisor. William hacker to head the effort, hopper. It's known climate change denier, he's falsely accused the national ocean. Graphic and atmosphere administration n-o-a-a of manipulating climate. Data and compared climate science to the holocaust. This is Dr Hafer in a two thousand fourteen interview the demonization of carbon dioxide is just like the demonization of the poor Jews under Hitler government dioxide is actually a benefit to the world. And so were the Jews too. We'll have more on this story later in the broadcast in a major victory for civil liberties advocates. The supreme court unanimously ruled to limit the practice of civil asset forfeiture a controversial practice where police seized property that belongs to people suspected of crimes even if they are never convicted on Wednesday. The court ruled the eighth amendment protects people from state and local authorities imposing onerous fines fees and forfeitures to generate money. The case centered on Indiana, man, Tyson Tim's who had sold drugs and was sentenced to prison. Tim's didn't contest his sentence. But of jetted to police seizing his Land Rover, which was worth four times the maximum fine. He could receive from his drug conviction after the unanimous ruling and Tim's favour Justice, Ruth, Bader Ginsburg, delivered the court's opinion, saying, quote, the historical and logic. Case for concluding that the fourteenth amendment incorporates. The excessive fines clause is overwhelming. She wrote we'll have more on the significance of this historic ruling after headlines. Authorities in Bangladesh say at least eighty people of died in a massive fire that burned down several buildings and poor centuries old neighborhood and the capital Dhaka. The death toll suspected to rise. As more bodies are uncovered the fire started on the ground floor of a chemical warehouse before spreading to neighboring structures. Residents say they'd raise safety concerns over the warehouse but word Nord by thirties in Mexico, two radio. Journalists have been murdered in the past week on Wednesday, environmental activist and community radio producer, Samir Flora's. So Baroness was killed in the state of Morello's shortly before a referendum on a Thermo electric plant and pipeline project that he had opposed on Saturday. Radio announcer right now the Lopez was fatally attacked by armed gunmen and Sonora another reporter Carlos KOTA was with Lopez but survived the attack for radio hosts have now been murdered in Mexico since the start of the year. A u n panel is raising alarm over reports of ongoing, Massachusetts and south Sudan experts say oil companies in the resource-rich region could be complicit in war crimes thousands of civilians who've been full simply displaced following scotch scorched earth policy in which the post to the conflict are talking the villages. Torching the homes killing civilians and raping women and girls if you are involved in extraction in that area you off to assist one. So I'd all the other you could be accused of compliant will crumbs three foreign oil companies operate in the region. The Chinese national petroleum company Petronas of Malaysia and the Indian oil and natural gas. Corporation, the company's own joint projects with state oh now Petroleum Corporation known. As now pet in Egypt. Sources have confirmed nine men were executed Wednesday over the two thousand fifteen car bomb killing of chief prosecutor his sham Barak on the men testified to being secretly detained tortured and coerced into confessing six others were executed earlier this month over the two thousand thirteen killing of a police officer and the two thousand fourteen killing of judges, son. Egypt has sentenced hundreds of people to death since president of fell CC came to power following the two thousand thirteen coup. Human rights groups have condemned. The executions in its statement. Amnesty International said, quote, Egyptian authorities must urgently halt this bloody execution spree which has seen them repeatedly. Putting people to death after grossly unfair trials in recent weeks in Syria coalition. Forces vacuum at hundreds of civilians from what is said to be the last ISIS held on clay in the region, the US spec Syrian democratic forces say they will storm the eastern town of Gu's once all civilians have left. President Trump has personally rejected an Alabama women's request to return to the United States after she left the country in two thousand fifteen to join ISIS fighters in Syria secretary of state, Mike Pompeo said Wednesday twenty four year old. Hold him. Von is not a US citizen. But her attorneys insist she does hold you citizenship and was born in Hackensack, New Jersey. She's now in refugee camp in Syria with her eighteen month old son in West Virginia. Teachers are heading back to the classroom today after a successful two day strike, which resulted in the demise of an education reform Bill that sought to legalize charter schools. Meanwhile, in Oakland, California teachers are set to launch their strike today as. They demand fair wages smaller class sizes and more resources for their teachers teachers are drawing attention to the soaring cost of living in the bay area. While public school salaries remain stagnant and school suffer from budget. Cuts. House Democrats are planning to introduce a resolution Friday to block President Trump's national emergency declaration to construct a US Mexico border wall in the Senate Republican Susan Collins of Maine said Wednesday, she would support a resolution to halt the emergency declaration at least four senators from the Republican caucus would have to join with all forty seven democratic caucus senators to achieve a majority in the Senate that could pass such a measure. President Trump ally and former adviser Roger stone's heading back to court today after he posted an Instagram photo. Monday, depicting federal judge Amy Berman Jackson with crosshairs next to her head the text in the now deleted post read through legal trickery, deep state hit-men Robert Mueller has guaranteed that my upcoming show trial is before judge Amy Berman Jackson. An Obama appointed judge who dismissed the Benghazi charges against Hillary Clinton and incarcerated Paul Manafort prior to his conviction for any crime fixes in helped me fight for my life at stone defence fund dot com. Stone was indicted last month as part of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation. He pleaded not guilty to lying to congress witness tampering and obstruction. Former Trump attorney and fixer Michael Cohen has agreed to testify about his work. Work for Donald Trump before congress next Wednesday in an open hearing, the news Kane is Cohen's upcoming prison term was pushed back by two months after he requested time to recover from a surgical procedure. Cohen was sentenced to three years for tax evasion. Bank fraud campaign finance violations in lying to congress. After admitting. He broke federal campaign finance laws by paying hush money to women during the two thousand sixteen presidential campaign. He'll begin his sentence in may. CNN reported Wednesday special counsel, Robert Muller, maybe wrapping up his probe and could release his report to attorney general William Bara soon as next week Trump told reporters he would leave it up to bar to decide whether to make the special counsel's report available to the public democratic lawmakers have repeatedly called for the open release of the report last month. Bipartisan Bill was introduced an effort to make Muller's findings open to all former New York congressman Joe Crowley has joined the corporate lobbying firm squire Patton Boggs the ten term congress member was defeated in a stunning upset in last year's midterm primary by then twenty eight-year-old I'll exander Cossio Cortez. The lobbying firm represents fossil fuel interests the arms industry and private prison company. Among others. Some of its clients include kgo Fenergy alliance which promotes oil and gas drilling and the conservative coke back policy and taxation group. Former Republican congressman Bill Shuster is also joining the firm, independent Senator Bernie Sanders. Raised nearly six million dollars in the first twenty four hours after launching his twenty twenty presidential bid, crushing the fundraising efforts of his fellow twenty twenty hopefuls California, Senator comma Harris was the second highest fund raiser receive in one and a half million dollars donations and the twenty four hours after her announcement Sanders campaign said the average donation was twenty seven dollars the same as during his two thousand sixteen presidential run in Chicago actor jussie smollet has been arrested and charged with felony disorderly conduct for filing. False police report Sma lettuce said to have faked an attack that sparked widespread outrage last month, the actor a star on FOX's hit TV show empire told police. He was violently attacked on the street in apparent hate crime. Smollet who is African American gay said the attackers shouted homophobic and racist slurs as well as quote, this is maga- country and placed a rope around his neck police say smollet paid the two brothers who were personal acquaintances of smollet to carry out a staged attack. The Chicago police department sight records from a hardware store where the brothers purchased. The rope and surveillance video of them picking up other supplies earlier. This week local media reported the attack was planned after a racist letter addressed to smollet and sent to the empire studio did not receive much attention. The letter. Tained white powder, which was later determined to be aspirin. The FBI is now reportedly investigating the letter jussie smollet has rejected the recent reports and maintains he gave a truthful account of the attack. And in Austin, Texas, immigrant rights activists, Patricia Akot who made national headlines last year after she scaled the statue of liberty to protest family separations climbed atop a southwest cay building Wednesday to protest the company which operates detention centers for migrant children earlier this week. The group tornado the occupation led a series of actions protesting immigration policies and the treatment of migrant children in the Texas border town of El Paso activists from the group stage what they called an intervention at the border patrol museum and brought cards with messages of support to migrants locked up at the southwest key detention center in Paso, this organizer one or TS speaking at the border patrol museum action. Four policy is affected changed structural Rylance story to nominate violence, the become economic refugees humanitarian refugees that what it should be recognised. Don't let them tell you that. It's a violent people that are coming. Don't let them tell you that they're enacting by than starts them. It is completely other. We allow you have children die under their custody. And then some of the headlines, this is democracy now democracy now or of the Warren peace report, I'm Amy Goodman, and I'm Menteith. Welcome to listen view around the country and around the world. In a major victory for civil liberties advocates. The supreme court has unanimously ruled to limit the practice of civil asset. Forfeiture a controversial practice where police seized property that belongs to people suspected of crimes even if they're never convicted on Wednesday. The court ruled the eighth amendment protects people from state and local authorities imposing onerous fines fees and forfeitures to generate money. The case centered on an Indiana, man, Tyson Tim's who had sold drugs and was sentenced to prison. Tim's didn't contest his sentence. But he did object to police seizing his landrover. The vehicle was worth forty two thousand dollars more than four times the ten thousand dollar maximum fine. Tim's could receive for his drug conviction under state law on Wednesday. The supreme court unanimously ruled and Tyson. Tim's favour writing on behalf of the justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg said quote, the historical and logical case. For concluding the fourteenth amendment incorporates. The excessive fines clause is overwhelming, unquote. The American Civil Liberties union has called civil asset forfeiture of violation of due process that disproportionately targets communities of color after Wednesday's ruling the tweeted, quote, this will help stop state and local authorities from using people in the Justice system as their piggybanks for more. We go to Washington DC where we're joined by Lisa foster co director of the fines and fees Justice center, her group along with others filed an amicus brief in the supreme court case, Lisa foster is a retired California. Judge. She served in the Justice department during the Obama administration and led the department's efforts to address excessive fines and fees. Lisa foster. Welcome to democracy. Now, why don't you lay out the significance of this unanimous decision of the supreme court morning? And it's a pleasure to be here. The supreme court forcefully told state and local governments that the excessive fines clause applies to their fines fees and forfeitures, and they said it as you pointed out unanimously that's critically important as even a casual observer of the supreme court knows it's rare these days for the court to be unanimous and all of the justices agreed not just that the excessive fines clause applies to state and local government. But also with the analysis that Justice Ginsburg provided and they're really a couple of points that are critical in her analysis. I of course, she decided applies to state and local governments. But second when she was going through her opinion, she provided a historical analysis of the excessive fines clause and concluded by explaining why the cause is still important today. And she gave two examples. One is because government could impose excessive fines to punish descent people. It doesn't like or behaviors it doesn't like can do that excessively but second, and I think most importantly, she talked about the fact that state and local governments today are using fines fees and forfeitures to raise revenue, and she found that to be a reason to continue to enforce the eighth amendment prohibition against excessive fines for that proposition. She cited the late Justice Scalia who warned about government raising revenue through the Justice system. And I'm proud to say she cited the Mikus brief that our minds and fees Justice center as well as the ACLU the r street institute and the southern poverty Law Center filed in the case, and we explained in that. Brief what is happening today in state and local government, and why that is harming so many Americans millions of Americans in particular, oh, income Americans and Americans of color. Well, that's once go ahead. Well, in her opinion, Reuss beta Ginsburg, noted the troubling role of excessive fines in America's history. She wrote quote following the civil war southern states enacted black codes to subjugate slaves and maintain the prewar racial hierarchy among these laws provisions draconian fines for violating broad prescriptions on vagrancy and other dubious offenses at least Lisa foster. Could you talk about the history of this? Certainly and that history both Justice Ginsburg and Justice Thomas in his concurring opinion, both wrote at length about the history of the excessive fines clause was really goes back to the Magna Carta, but their emphasis on the fact that after the civil war excessive fines were used by southern states, really to Rian slave black people southern states passed vagrancy laws all kinds of provisions imposed very steep fines on people who violated those laws, and when they couldn't pay those fines, then literally sold people to private companies for labor, it was convict labor, and that was a notorious and practice throughout the south and even in some northern states after we can during reconstruction and after that is important because. Ause today, fines fees and four features disproportionately affect black people and other communities of color in the United States. And by citing that history. The supreme court says to the states we understand what's happening. And that's a reason to be particularly concerned about the imposition of these excessive fines Lisa could you? Could you just explain in? What cases it's considered justified four lake a local and state authorities to impose fines almost every case. So fine is a monetary sanction for the violation of a law and for many offenses fines are the only sanctioned. So for example, if you get a speeding ticket it's against the law. No one's gonna send you to jail, or at least they shouldn't for speeding. So we impose a fine fines are imposed. In traffic cases, there imposed in civil code violations nipple code violations there. Also, the principle way that we sentenced people in misdemeanors and often today in felonies, and what's happened over the last thirty years is that the amount of those fines has dramatically increased. And so have the fees that go with those fines and fees are not supposed to be a sanction, but they're imposed by state and local government to pay for the cost of the Justice system and other government services. So I wanna go back to two thousand fifteen more than a dozen Saint Louis area. Residents filed a class action lawsuit against Ferguson and another suburb Jennings. They cues local officials of creating a quote modern debtor's prison scheme that targets African Americans with arrests and fines, and then locks them up when they. Can't pay democracy. Now spoke to Allison Nelson. One of the plaintiffs in the class action lawsuits there were multiple occasions where I was incarcerated by genie's and Ferguson, but just my recent one I it was thanksgiving. It was three days before thanksgiving. I was incarcerated into genie's GIO. So I had been there for three days. And once I live genie's will they negotiated with my mother over the phone, so reduce my by from thousand dollars to one hundred dollars. And then once they reduced the vine, then I was then transferred to Ferguson jail cell thanksgiving one in at around three them. And I sit there four few hours. And then once they hit shift change and the other see okay man, the correctional officer came in. I guess he was in a good move thanksgiving warning because he came in called out a list of names, and he was just like, okay. At the time, I bind seven hundred dollars. And he was just like, oh if you could. Come up with a hundred dollars. Then you could go home. So then we weren't given free phone calls at all. So I had the car my mother on the collect phone and wings when you're supposed to speak your name had the yield through the phone that oh, they're giving me one hundred dollars bond coming getting. So it was what were you charged with house? I was charged with. It was driving driving watt suspending was driving while suspended driving wall suspended. That's Nelson one of the plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit. Speaking democracy now in two thousand fifteen Lisa foster, if you could talk about the two thousand sixteen letter you wrote on this whole issue and also this is while you were at the Justice department as well as the action Jeff Sessions took when he became attorney general. Allison story is precisely why we wrote the letter that we did what's colloquially referred to as the dear colleague letter after the uprising in Ferguson after Michael Brown was killed the Justice department, civil rights division investigated, the Ferguson police department, and what they found was appalling for his was using the Justice system to raise revenue twenty three percent of the city's revenue came from fines and fees imposed by the municipal court in Ferguson and Ferguson city officials were telling their police officers to raise revenue go out there and ticket people which the police department did largely in the communities African American neighborhoods. And so they were imposing multiple tickets. You would be stopped for a traffic offense and often four five different tickets issued people were cited for high grass and weeds growing to high on their front lawn and. If they couldn't pay immediately in Ferguson, they were sent to jail. Just like Allison was that's unconstitutional supreme court back in nineteen Eighty-three said that you cannot punish someone simply because they cannot afford to pay a fine. You have to punish someone only. Because what they did was willful. They they they could afford to pay it, and they chose not to. But that's not what was happening for. Ferguson residents were being charged excessive fines, they couldn't pay them. And they were sent to Dale that's debtor's prison. And so that department brought together. People from all over the country. Judges legislators activists lawyers and tried to determine what it was the department could do to try to reform fines and fees in the United States and one of the things that people asked of the department, particularly state judges and state legislators was for guidance. Some explanation of the law that applies to the issues of fines and fees and so together with vanita Gupta. Who is then the acting director of our civil rights division. We wrote a letter, and we set out some black letter law basic constitutional principles and federal legal principles that are supposed to inform the way that fines and fees are imposed and enforced, and we sent that letter to every state chief Justice and every state court administrator, and I have to say it was well received. Many supreme court justices or chief justices sent the letter out to their entire bench. Every judge in the state in Arizona. The chief posted the letter online. And judges all over the country realize that what they had been doing with unconstitutional. Now fast forward to the new administration and attorney general Jeff Sessions fairly early on in the administration announced that he was retracting that letter together with several other pieces of guidance that the Obama administration had issued. I don't think it had the effect that he intended because many many state supreme courts, particularly the chief justices reinforced to their judges that despite the actions of the attorney general that dear colleague letter still applied in their states. And do you expect the new attorney general William bar to address the issue differently? No. I don't think that department sees its role as advising the states or working with the states to change these practices. I wanted to go back to two thousand sixteen when we spoke to a woman named Janice. Native Little Rock Arkansas who said she wrote a check for a dollar seven for a loaf of bread that bounced the debt ballooned after fees and fines to nearly four hundred dollars Jonah spoke to democracy now and condition of an image from fear of arrest. Wanna go to that clip? On several occasions. I have been arrested by Sherwood police department for bounced shakes, insufficient funds shakes. I even been arrested on my job, two different jobs. It's a matter of fact one. One to different hospitals. My chicks has total. I will say less than a thousand dollars through ticks and their little small checks. The band manager. Didn't keep a good register. So therefore a bounced checks of somewhere twenty dollars hundred dollar may have been the has number chicks have wrote. But I have had a cumulated fees of two thousands of dollars in fees and calls on roughly listing thousand dollars worth of checks. So that was Janice in Little Rock, Arkansas speaking to us a few years ago. So what happens now with people like, Janice and everyone else as result of this? And you can comment on this out side of this particular decision. A unanimous supreme court decision across the political spectrum. What this means in this day and age Lisa foster. The what it means is. Advocates around the country. Now have a new tool to use to end the imposition of fees and excessive fines and forfeitures and the Justice system. They can go to state and local governments, and and talk about the supreme court opinion. And if necessary they can sue state and local governments who impose excessive fines fees and forfeitures this stories alison's story in Genesis stories. Are unfortunately stories of millions of people around the country. Just give you one example in California, the fine for running a red light you race that yellow light. Any lost the fine is one hundred dollars. That's what the legislature says is the sanction for running the red light. But that's not what you owe the state of California. If you're convicted of running a red light you four hundred and ninety dollars because the calif-. Legislature attach is an additional three hundred ninety dollars of fees to that one hundred dollar fine. The average American doesn't have four hundred dollars in the Bank for an emergency. So how are they supposed to come up with four hundred ninety dollars to pay to the state and truthfully if you're a low income person, you can't do that at least not right away? And what happens around the country if you can't immediately afford to pay your fines and fees is exactly what happened to Alison, Janice. The amounts go up and in forty three states your driver's licenses suspended now it's counter productive to suspend. Somebody's drivers license because they didn't pay a debt because of course, ninety percent of Americans drive to get to work. So we take away their license. We take away their means of earning a living to pay back the debt, and so many Americans drive even while their licenses suspended because they have to go to work. They have to get their kids to school. They have to get a family member to the doctor, and if they're stopped by law enforcement for driving on a suspended license. It's a misdemeanor. Now, they have a criminal record more, fines and fees are imposed and we've created an endless cycle of punishment, and poverty that is happening all over this country today, and this case gives advocates a new tool to fight those practices. Lisa foster, we want to thank you for being with us co director of fines and fees Justice center organization, along with others filed Emeka spree and the supreme court case Tim's versus Indiana, retire, judge former director of the office for access to Justice at the US department of Justice, this is democracy. Now when we come back you hear the analogy made by President Trump's well imen- he's considering to head up a committee to look at whether climate change affects national security will speak with the author of a new book the uninhabitable earth. Stay with us. Dance of the sugar Plum fairies from Chekhov skis nutcracker, suite this is democracy. Now, I mean Goodman with Nermeen shea we spend the rest of the on the time it crisis following reports. At the White House is organizing a new committee to examine what the climate change poses a threat to national security efforts to form the panel named the presidential committee on climate security are being led by Princeton University. Professor emeritus and Trump science advisor William happe-, a physicist and known climate change denial observers say his involvement indicates that Trump administration wants to undermine findings within the national security community that time it change poses a severe threat to human safety. William hoppers national Security Council senior director, who's long claimed increasing the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will actually benefit humans in two thousand seventeen interview published in the guardian hyper said, quote, there's a whole. Area of climate so called science that is really more like a coat it's like Krishna or something like that they're glassy eyed, and they chant hopper also has served on the board of the CO two cool coalition which sites as its mission educating policy leaders and the public about quote, the important contribution made by carbon dioxide and fossil fuels. He's also compared the fight against climate change to the holocaust. This is happened. Speaking on CNBC with Andrew Ross Sorkin in in two thousand fourteen you made a comment back in two thousand nine comparing climate change, the holocaust, and my question is are you suggesting when you made that comment that climatologist climate scientists or the equivalent of Hitler and Nazis. I mean that that's what seems like you were trying to say, you know, you know, I get called it a Nyerere and all anyone who objects to all of the height gets called it a Nyerere that's supposed to make. Me. Holy denier. I'm getting tired of that. And the comment I made was the demonization of carbon dioxide it's just like the demonization of the poor Jews under Hitler carbon dioxide is actually benefit to the world. And so were the Jews. That's William happier. Defending his statement that quote, the demonization of carbon dioxide is just like the demonization of the poor Jews under Hitler. Dr Hafer, also supports prohibiting federally funded scientists from communicating their findings to the public news that he might lead. Trump's new climate committee comes despite a widespread consensus about the massive threat climate change, poses t- amenity last year government findings collected by thirteen federal agencies reported climate change poses an extreme threat to American infrastructure Konami and public health. We turn now for the rush of the show to journalist. David Wallace wells who sounding the alarm about the climate crisis and the need for swift radical action to save the planet from unimaginable destruction. His new book reports global warming is far worse than reports of even the worst case scenarios the book is called the uninhabitable earth life after warming. The book offers the dire warning that the planet is on course, to more than four degrees celsius of warming by twenty one hundred this means, quote, whole regions of Africa and Australia and the United States parts of South America, north of Patagonia and Asia South of Siberia would be rendered uninhabitable by direct heat desertification and flooding we're joined by the book's author. David Wallace wells deputy editor and climate columnist for New York magazine. It's so great to have you with us. So start off by well responding to Dr hacker. And also the reason President Trump is setting up this committee. The government has said over and over again, even the Trump administration government that climate change is a national security threat one of the worst. So why this committee you you put your finger right on it? Which is they want to discredit those findings. And it seems like they're looking for people not just to hold their same ideology that they're disinterested in climate. But that they are going to your Tate, the liberals who are watching this very closely. I don't see why else you've pick someone like this to be part of this committee. The holocaust analogy is especially interesting because we already today killing nine million people year globally with small particular pollution. That's not directly a an effect of climate change. But it happens because we're burning fossil fuels nine million people every year and. And that is more than died in the holocaust. If we get to two degrees of warming predictions are that we will have killed one hundred fifty million people from the small particular pollution alone. It's a paper by scientists named Rousson. Del just looked at the difference between air pollution at one point five degrees and air pollution at two degrees. So just in that gap. We'd be killing one hundred fifty million people that's the equivalent twenty-five holocausts and two degrees. Is functionally our best case scenario for global warming, which means that our absolute best case scenario is suffering. The scale of twenty five holocaust, which puts this comments about his comparison context. Carbon dioxide to Jews and it's interesting on additionally because the department of defense national security state have been really interesting source of far-reaching projections about climate change within the US for a long time. They are among the more conservative parts of the federal government. And yet, they're also very hard minded and realistic and concerned with the fate of American power in the world. And so they've been very clear in their projections for what is possible not just the flooding of navy bases. And. Other military bases which is a big part of it. But also just how totally the global map will be destabilized by the forces of warming. So in many parts of the world whole societies could be torn asunder pushed into civil war nations that had been living sort of uncomfortably aside, one another could be pushed into conflict over resource scarcity there, scientists who believe that much of the unrest that we've seen in the Middle East of less. Twenty five years is actually the result of global warming. Because this is part of the world where warming hit first and hit hardest and the people studying the relationship between conflict and warming suggests that for every half degree of warming. We'll see between ten and twenty percent increase in conflict, which means if we got to four degrees of warming by the end of the century, which is not my projection, by the way. That's what the UN things will where we'll be if we don't change course that will have twice as much war or more by the end of the century. Is that what you mean? I mean, the US militay not only, of course, has warned of this being a. National climate change being a national security threat. But they've also talked about climate change as a threat multiplier. Now. What does that mean is that what you're just climate changes in encompassing threat? It touches every aspect of life on the planet and many of those impacts are going to be damaging. So there's a cost economic growth economists believe that if we don't change course on climate change will have a global GDP that's at least twenty percent smaller, and maybe thirty percents smaller than we would without climate change. There's the cost of public health. There's the impact of drought and agriculture yields again, if we get to four degrees by the end of the century. We might have grain yields that are half as bountiful as we would without them. Which means we'd have to feed fifty percent, more people and have half as much grain to give them an all of these things impose a burden on any society. Some societies are wealthy enough and adaptable enough to endure and find other ways to feed their people and take care of their sick. But others are not and many of those societies will likely fall into conflict as it was. Global warming. So the people who study this most closely are careful to say that most wars that we see aren't the direct cause of warming. But that warming is a factor in many conflicts, for instance, the Syrian civil war Libya. Sorry, not Libya, Lebanon had a similar drought, and they were not pushed into civil disarray. But the series of war was the result of drought and produced a refugee crisis that has completely destabilized European politics and through Europe global geopolitics that was one million refugees who came out of Syria went into Europe, there more refugees that were produced but only one million to Europe, and we're looking at Cording to the UN climate refugee crisis that could be one hundred or two hundred or even a thousand times as big as that as a crisis. We're gonna break and then come back to the discussion with David Wallace wells, author of the new book the uninhabitable earth life after warming. Stay with us. One of those snow fall down in April said Assan at your. Then you know, things change in. Tabet all the you cry. Still can he be talking about Megan changes and ally? Live away. All right. When those no fall down. Annual TV ring. About a resident claiming victory, but I think we. When the snow falls down in a. Cut in trees in Brazil. I know it's five, and you know, in chrome identity here onto microscope democracy now dot org the warranty Scher port. I made me Goodman with their main shape. Earlier today, Greta tune bug. The sixteen year old Swedish climate activists address. European Union leaders in Brussels, Greta has garnered global attention for carrying out a weekly school strike against climate change in her home country of Sweden. We need to focus every inch of our being unkind change. Because if we fail to do so the or our achievements and progress have been for nothing. And all that we remain of our political leaders legacy will be the greatest failure of human history. And they will be remembered as the greatest villains of all time because they have chosen not to listen enough to act, and if you still say that we are wasting valuable lesson time than let remind you that our political leaders have wasted decades through denial and inaction. And since our time is running out we have decided to take action. We have started to clean up your mess, and we will not stop onto. We are done thinking. The best Greta, tune, big speaking in Brussels at the European Union today, we're joined by David Wallace wells, deputy editor and climate columnist for New York magazine. His new book is titled the uninhabitable earth life after warning warming. So David could you respond to what Greta said? And also, I mean, obviously, she's a Scandinavian activist, and we all know that Inskip into navy the response to climate change has been a much more forceful and much earlier than than in the United States. You in your book yourself, right? I am like every other American who spent their life fatally complacent and willfully deluded about climate change. So I your response to her. And then explain how you went from being a complacent American to writing a book called. The inhabitable earth. Well, I I would say I'm of grad, I think she's done an incredible service to the planet. And I think she's not alone all of the children who are mobilizing on this issue. I think have an incredible moral stature that shames on us. Grownups their parents and grandparents for what we've done in our continuing to do. I think activism that she's inspired is thrilling actually exhilarating, and you see not just in Sweden, but all across Europe, you see it with extinction. Rebellion started in the UK, and is now spreading in the US and all of the activism that's pushed the green deal here. I think things are actually on the ground changing quite rapidly sort of gold standard measure of public opinion in the US climate. Is this yell study that comes out every December and the numbers there that more than seventy percent American's believe global warming is real and happening now where than seventy percent are concerned about those numbers have jumped fifteen percent in just a few years. They jumped eight percents since March. So things are moving. Quickly the questions whether our policy will move quickly enough to respond. My own story is you know, I'm not an environmentalist. I'm been in Urbani my whole life. I am a kind of child of the end of history. I was a teenager in the nineteen nineties in America and affluent part of America, New York, and I believe that while the promises of globalization, and the liberalism where imperfect also believed that history told the story of progress and that over time the world would be getting better more prosperous, safer cleaner, more just again, those stories would be Radic, but they would unfold over time and just over the last few years really beginning twenty sixteen when I started seeing much more alarming reports about climate change than I had seen before. And also noticed that those reports were not showing up in our newspapers or television accounts of climate change that there were some really quite bleak possibilities on the horizon. And so profound their implications that they? Would really on build or reverse those intuitions about the future of the world that I had had as young person growing up when I did that the cost to our society could be so great that we really did stop thinking of the future as containing a more prosperous possibility for us and started thinking of the past as some more perfect time talking about the smell, Terry. And what the US military understands about the threat of global warming to national security while it destabilizes absolutely everything about you. Geopolitics states are stabilized the rivalries between states or stabilize it changes. The calculus of where resources are there valuable it transforms shipping routes transforms the front lines of battle. So for instance. The Arctic is melting that means that there are there's new territory to fight over. There's already rivalry there between the US and Russia China's involved and the exact nature of these dynamics is shifting with the effects of change. So Russia was a country that. A few years ago. We thought of as a kind of a second rate power, but climate change actually promises to benefit them in a couple of ways in part because they benefit from the burning fossil fuels their petrous date and in part because their economy is one of the few in the world that's far enough north that will actually benefit from some additional warming, the relationship of temperature and economic growth is complicated. But there are some countries that will benefit and most will suffer as a result of warming and Russia is poised to benefit which means that along with everything else. We're seeing Russia could play a bigger more dynamic role of rival in the future. And the same is true of China. The way that they're approaching the South China Sea and building new islands in that sea suggests that they are trying to establish new footholds in a theater that had been essentially dominated by the US military since World War Two, and which their own footholds are where their own footholds are at risk of disappearing because many of those islands are going to be under water by the middle of the. Century what the US military understands. This is Trump's problem, right? Why setting up this committee because they're a strong force for understanding quoting at the great national security threat of the twenty first century and understanding the effects of for example, climate migration, the pressures people will feel leaving their countries to others to save themselves. So Trump has to discredit all us if he wants to succeed and denying climate change is to discredit as entire government. I think personally, I think the Trump is less of a denier than someone who sees an opportunity in slow walk in action on climate. So I don't think he really cares. Whether climate change is real I just think he sees an advantage in American in action in opening more coal plants and letting the rest of the world clean up the mess. That's always operated as a businessman. I think that's basically how is operating as a president. But what's really interesting new news from science from ecconomic? Research in particular is that while that will his view had been a kind of conventional picture of whether we should act on climate or not that is to say ten years ago. Economist would have said that action on climate was quite costly and went involve real foregoing real economic growth. All of the recent research suggests that faster action will be better for us economically. We could save twenty six trillion dollars in global economy just by twenty thirty which is a very fast return if we decarbonised quickly. I don't think that information is yet percolated into the minds of our policy makers, especially like Donald Trump. But once that logic is clear that faster action is better for the economy. I think that we may start to see kind of sea change in our public policy towards climate. We'll say well, one of the things that's bay at powerful about your book is that you know, we're used to thinking of climate change as a series of cataclysmic events. Right floods hurricanes at cetera. But you point out that climate change is also a problem of Daration. In other words, it's not only fun. It's also very long and the longer it goes on it's cumulative effects result in even more catastrophic events so could could you elaborate on that? And how we should understand it. I mean, you right. In fact, you might hope to simply reverse climate change. But you can't it will outrun all of us. That's especially true with regard to the melting of ice. So if we pass to been points of ice melt in the Arctic and Arctic those processes will take place over centuries, and maybe even millennia, but the scale of the impacts that they will bring our enormous. So we could see at least one hundred feet of sea level rise possibly as much as two hundred and sixty feet of sea level rise, if we melt all of the ice, and that would completely transform them out but the world, but I think it's also important to understand that climate change is not a binary system. It's not a question of whether it's happened or not it's not a question. Whether we've passed a threshold of catastrophe or not every tick upward mixed the impacts worse and every up. Word. We avoid will make them better. So a two point five degrees. We'll be considerably worse off than we were two degrees at three degrees worse than two and a half degrees. And while the scale of some of these possible Harz is therefore kind of almost paralyzing horror show. It's also reminder of just how much power we have and will always have over the climate. If we get to four degrees. It will be because of action we take now. And if we, but that means that we can avoid getting there if we take action quickly and different responsibilities. If people in different countries like the United States versus in the global south. Yeah. I mean, the US has the lion's share of historical emissions. And so there's a strong argument that we should be true. Moral leader on this issue at the moment. China is the biggest driver of emissions, and I think going forward will be the main driver of the future climate of the planet because American emissions and a U. Emissions are falling though, not fast enough and Chinese emissions are growing. I think that the the sort of scarier uglier. Moral calculus has to do with the impacts which. Is to say that it's the global south. That's being hit hardest on that's already the case. But it will certainly be the case in this in the decades ahead your see projections that many of the biggest cities in India and the Middle East will be lethally hot in summer as soon as twenty fifty which means you really won't be able to go outside during the summer without incurring some risk of heat stroke, obviously Bangaladesh's at risk of flooding about half of its land mass. And it's especially grotesque when you think that those two countries were for so long the the colonies of Britain who invented the industrial fission and built an empire. Awesome fuels. Let's also I mean, you point out that it's not just a question of consumption in the US, for example. It's also the sheer waste you. Right. Two thirds of American energy is wasted and Americans waste a quarter of their food. I mean, you would think that this is a fairly easy problem to resolve. Why think that climate change in a certain way isn't easy problem to resolve? If we just had policy that was focused on. And enough muscle behind it. But yeah, everywhere you look there solutions like that. So there's a lot of talk now about lifestyle choices and consumption and particularly diet as it relates to climate change. I personally feel that basically all the talk of lifestyle choices distraction from policy and the things we need to do at that level. But there's research that shows that if you feed cattle seaweed their methane emissions fall by as much as ninety five or even ninety nine percent, which means that if we legislated that all cattle farmers fed. Their cattle seaweed that we wouldn't have to worry about the impact of eating beef. We could just eat the guiltlessly or if we invested aggressively in lab ground beef and didn't involve animal suffering at all we would still be able to have the pleasure of those meals without imposing any carbon footprint on the world. And there are really those kinds of solutions. Almost everywhere. You look there are some sectors that are a little harder to decarbonised, for instance, air travel some sectors of industry, but there's exciting interesting technological movement on those fronts to ten seconds. Why you chose the tight? The uninhabitable or the short answer is for hyperbole. I think that we need people to be alarmed and while I think true uninhabitable. As vanishingly unlikely it is conceivable, and the fact that we've brought it into view at all is a huge indictment of everything we've done over the last few decades. Well, David Wallace wells. Thank you for being with us step. He and Erin climate columnist for New York magazine, his new book, titled the uninhabitable earth life after warming that does it for our show. We have a job opening accepting applications for full time one year hade news fellowship. Details. Democracy now dot org. Democracy now produced by Mike Deane, Augusta Carla wills Tammy were enough. Sam John Hamilton Raby. Karen, Honey, Masud Kununurra Tae Marie studio and Libby rainy special. Thanks to Miriam Barnes, Mike to on the gallon. Garra I mainly Goodman with you shake.

United States President Trump supreme court Lisa foster Justice department Trump Justice system Amy Goodman David Wallace wells government Tyson Tim Ruth Bader Ginsburg Indiana Justice center officer Ferguson
Race, Police, and The Law

Amicus with Dahlia Lithwick

55:28 min | 6 months ago

Race, Police, and The Law

"As a black woman and dean of a law school, the first dean of Color at Boston. University School of law I struggled with what message I should send to my students. I even wondered if I could send a message about the deaths of on Taylor Ahmad arbitrary. George Floyd and Tony mcdaid imagining the backlash. Certain words came out of my black mouth. The trump administration under attorney-general sessions and bar have abdicated the justice department's responsibility in supporting and ensuring constitution policing in communities in this country. High an welcome back to amicus. This is slates podcast about the courts in the law, and yes, that thing we call the rule of law. I'm with Wiig I cover those things for the magazine, and it has been a deeply painful week in America with. Grief and horror at the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Police and other killings around the country. Of. Black people by police officers it's resulted in protests and curfews and arrests and attacks on the press. It's also been a really busy week for lawyers. What with having to read up pawn? Quartering soldiers, and Posse comitatus and the insurrection act, and no quarter orders and generalized presidential claims that protesters are all hooligans and looters who must be dominated if necessary by using military force domestically. Afternoon, Donald Trump conscripted federal security forces to clear peaceful protesters from Lafayette Square, so that he and his senior advisors could walk undisturbed from the White House to stand in front of Saint, John's Church and wave a Bible Aloft. That action has led to yet more protesters who are protesting abusive law enforcement, ironically in response to protests about abusive law enforcement, it's also led to a lot of important conversations about racism and justice and persistent and invidious racism police reform, the rule of the Justice Department and the law in either inflaming or addressing these problems. Later on in the show slate plus listeners are gonNA have a chance to catch up with our own Mark Joseph Stern about some action that took place at the Supreme Court last week, including a midnight decision in a case brought by churches who objected to state lockdown orders. We're also going to talk to Vanita Gupta. Who served in the justice? Department as head of the Civil Rights Division from twenty fourteen to twenty seventeen and focus a lot of her energy there on racialist policing, but before we do any of that, and by way of preface as the precursor and maybe guiding principle of today's conversations I wanted to check in with. Angela and Watchi- league she is Dean and professor of law. Law At Boston University School of law. She's a renowned legal scholar. She's an expert in critical race, theory, employment, discrimination, and family, law and some of you may remember her from our live show in Austin in two thousand eighteen well earlier this week she posted a really remarkable open letter to her students, talking about this moment in America and now she feels, and it seemed really important to talk about that with her, so Angela welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for having me back here, so your letter is called the fire. This time it's posted on the BU you website will post it with our show notes as well and I wondered. If maybe you would start by. Reading some of it for, our listeners. Sure So I am the mother of two black sons and one black daughter. I fear for their lives whenever they step outside. As a mother of black children I both envy, and resent the freedom with which mothers of White Children Parent. They never have to balance that. Delicate line between teaching their children had ensure their survival after police, stop and crushing their spirit while doing so. Because a very lesson derived from another. That black lives are not valued in our society. So many black people in this country I see my family and myself in. George, Floyd. Ahmad, arbitrary and Brianna Taylor because I know just like they do their loved ones, and even I could be next. And these feelings are exploding in what is already a difficult time. As a black woman and dean of a law school, the first of Color at Boston University School of law I struggled with what message I should send to my students. I even wondered if I could send a message about the deaths of Ron Taylor Ahmad arbitrary. George Floyd and Tony mcdaid imagining the backlash when certain words came out of my black mouth. I listened to friend spoke with other black. Women Dean who felt equally silenced. Oliver still cautioning each other against speaking out through public message, all of us knew we called and would act more freely where we not black. Perhaps surprising to some of you, racism regularly disempowers the seemingly powerful deem. And yet if we feel powerless, imagine what it feels like for those not so economically are professionally privileged. But for me once I thought specifically about what my law school self would have wanted actually needed to hear in this time. I knew not only that I had to write, but also what I must right. After telling his nephew that the boy's father Baldwin's brother was defeated long before he died because at the bottom of his heart. He really believed that white people said about him. Baldwin share two sentences that I will share with you my students. With one omission. The message goes. You can only be destroyed. By believing that you really are with the white world calls you. I tell you this because I love you. And please don't ever forget that. I read your letter so many times this week. One of the things that really. Struck me first of all is that I am the mother of two teenage boys who swan around Crown Heights in Brooklyn Swan around. Manhattan as though they own the place and. I guess I have just really. Recalled in reading what you're saying that the conversations I have had with them or utterly different from the conversations that you have with your kids. And more pointedly. Angela guess. I'm really struck by. The silence and you know you flag. Are Silences and you also flag your own silence, and how hard you had to struggle to even write this and you are the dean of this unbelievably prestigious law school, and as you note your students, you know think you are God that, they you have limitless unfamiliar bounded authority to say and do what you want and I wondered if you could. Just maybe reflect for a minute on that struggle to be silent and to speak knowing that there. Could be repercussions. What? What was the thinking around that and? How do you feel now that you said what you needed to say? They're million things going through my mind. Part of it is as the dean of the law school I represent everyone in the law school when I represent the institution, and that's a body of people who have a wide variety of us and even as I look at the George Floyd. What I perceive as the murderer of Jewish floyd on tape in see no other way to view that. Tape that there might be other people in my. Community my large community, including my alumni committee that would look at that tape and see it differently. So I'm expected to resist those kinds of broader statements. And, then there's also the sort of the myth that we tell ourselves in law. That were supposed to be these completely neutral beings, and that the lot self is completely neutral without recognizing the actors that wrote the laws that created without recognizing who was left out of the creation of those laws, recognizing how precedent revised the exclusion of certain voices from the creation of case law and how it signifies. Continuing exclusion of particular perspectives because of people viewing their experiences normative right at not being aware simply what is neat? What's my which might experience the experience of other African Americans with experience for people with experience of a wide variety of people who are usually voiceless in our society. And so just really struggling with act, and yet distinct about all those who Including my own students. who were feeling voiceless? I think probably asking themselves the same question that I was asking. What's the point of being in this position if I can't speak? and and ultimately that was what. Pushed me to speak you know what's the point of my being in this position in being a black woman? Having people lauded if I'm going to be silent in the same way that perhaps a white man would be silent in this position, and it didn't make sense in whatever the repercussions were I was I was fully. Fully open to them. I would be fine with actually welcomed them so. It was more important to speak. It was more important to acknowledge and to to also to let people know not only that this is something that affected all. African Americans expectedly affected all people. That this is something that they should be upset about and that it happens all the time and. I guess one thing I want to say is I. Think one of the things that you worry about when you're in these positions is that you get used as a sort of an example of why racism doesn't exist anymore? You See. We have a black team You know things aren't as bad as it used to be. In A. There's no more racism or there's a lot less racism and I didn't I didn't WanNa. Be used in that way. Either I didn't want whether whether it was conscious or not and so I felt like that was also really important reason to speak and I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself well, but it was all all these things were going through my mind. It's a just felt for all those reasons. It was appointed, not designed. For to speak for my students, particularly my black students, who I knew a lot of pain, it was an important to speak so that people. who were not aware that people might position were feeling. The way I was feeling knew I was feeling that people knew that feared for my own children. People know that people with my education and my standing in my in my now class background. Are also. Suffer harassment from the police. All those things are really important for everyone to understand. The other thing that really struck me. There are so many things that struck me about your letter. One of the things that really struck me Angelo was the intimacy of it that you talked about your kids and you talked about your fear. And my God I think I went through three years of law school without ever hearing anybody talk. About their children's certainly, I never heard a woman woman. Person on the faculty talk intimately about being a mother. it's one of the things I think I hated about law school. Is this Iraqi leader you know laying delion world? World of professors are perfect and their brains in vats. And I think that's also a form of vulnerability for again for a woman for a black woman to. Be Really Human in a law school context that thrives on. A kind of frosty. Notion that the law is what it is and we are just. It's careful person lists, stewards and I wondered what. That vulnerability on your part. What you wanted to hear back and what you have heard back. Have people been vulnerable to you in responding to this? My first and foremost hope was that I was hoping that my My. My students of color would feel seen if they would feel like. Someone acknowledged recognized experience that students who were angry with feel like someone said what. What. They were thinking in that people who? Wanted to be pushed to look inward. Felt that they were pushed to look inward. And I've got but a really really positive. A reception I think. You know when you say this to one of the things that people say. Moscow is one of the things that you'll learn thinking the lawyers. You know you won't say I feel anymore. We only about what you think you know end. One of those things that's one of the students responded was that it was refreshing to see someone talk about their feelings. And that was important to have. That view reminded that that was part of being a lawyer is. is having a feeling in part of being ineffective lawyers is having the ability to feel. And I've got nothing but positive reception from students of color feeling seen. white students who are allies. Feeling scene and feeling good about being pushed to look inward. People appreciating the fact that I was willing to be vulnerable I. Think it's always people appreciate when people who are in positions of power. Make themselves vulnerable as well. I didn't know what to expect to be honest, but I mean the definitely the people I was wanted to be seen felt seen an, and they felt like that voice was given to what they were experiencing and thinking and feeling in believing, and so I was glad that I am really glad that that statement and I could I felt an immediate. Difference once that once I sent the letter out to my students I was just feeling. It was hanging over me as I was writing it in rewriting rewriting. I just felt awful. Sick almost and once I sent it out. I felt better right and And, so that was a lesson for me to write about silence in the way in which island can do harm to you? So, it was a good lesson for me as well. I think that one of the themes. Even in preparing this show, even in thinking about your letter is imagination and failures of imagination and. I could never have imagined a law school, Dean, modeling, pain, and compassion and suffering and modeling speaking into the void, and as you say I, think imagination and compassion and dignity all those things that you write about our hived out of legal thinking because that's not how lawyers are supposed to think and I I'm really struck by I think I sent this to you this morning. This letter that the Washington Supreme Court published that. I I shouldn't be surprised, but it is beyond anything I could've imagined it signed by. The entire Washington State Supreme Court and again will post it in the show notes, but this recognition judges the role. We've played in devaluing black lives talking about what the court has done with its precedent talking about. Equality lack of financial resources. We must recognize that this is not how a justice system must operate too often in the legal profession. We feel bound by tradition. The way things have always been we must remember. Even the most venerable precedent must be struck down when it is incorrect and harmful. I my lifetime maybe I'm just so limited. Imagination Angela I can't imagine courts acting to take responsibility like that and I. Wonder If really that's all your letter was asking is be in this conversation with me. Those of you in the law who cannot imagine. What it is that you have done I mean see. A world separate from the world that is constructed in law school yet it's a that letters incredible you know. It is powerful, and it gives me hope in a way that you know was hard to imagine even just a few days ago, right? that you know there's so many ways in so many of us for so long been talking about the ways in which law facilitates injustice sprite. and for to have a Supreme Court of a state basically acknowledged at an to say. that. There's that has to be done by the court and courts to do that is is really unbelievable as you said in in the absolutely, Yes, that is part of what I was hoping to say is part of what I in so many people have been saying in our scholarship for so long and It's it's unbelievable when I and I really hope. Supreme, court she should. Just support also wrote a very powerful letter to in. NF We can have more courts acknowledging that and we see more changes in a case law. That could create real change. I. Hope that this results in an will change. It's hard. You know you don't WanNa. Almost believe it because so often. You think well, maybe this will result in will change things. Go back to the same situation but. I'm I'm I'm hopeful this moment Maggie different. I guess maybe I. Keep landing at the notion that the folks who are going to change it as your students who read it. Who Read what you wrote? Your kids, my kids, and that things that look like letters. To us your letter, the letter from the Massachusetts Court from the Washington court. That actually is an agent of change. If our kids read it in take to heart so. I guess I just WanNa. Thank you so much for your time for your work I. Know You've I was just reading your article on Brown, and and how it perpetuated wide surpremacy. Think that we all have a lot of reading to do this weekend and I. Thank you for being with us and letting us be in this conversation with you. Thank you for having the conversation. I agree with you these these these these protesters are. Are Really phenomenal on? I've seen some real courage in real things than during his protests that have that have given me life and That have shown me the possibilities for real real structural change, so hopefully I I hope it happens Angela and watch Willett is Dean and professor of law at Boston University School of law. She renowned legal scholar and expert in critical race. Theory Employment Discrimination in family law and she joined us to talk about the letter she wrote to her. Students Take Good Care Angela. Thank you for being with us. Thank you very much, thank you. We're GONNA hear now from one of our great sponsors of this show, and that is our friends at Sikora if you are looking to change your diet instead of restricting what you eat. What if you just nourished your body with the healthiest and most nutritious foods with Sikora? 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When you go to Sikora dot, com slash amicus and enter Code Amicus A. M. I. C. U. S. at checkout. That's Sikora S.. K. A. R. A. DOT COM slash amicus to get twenty percent off your first order Sikora dot com slash amicus. Friends if you are not asleep plus yet I'm going to urge you to check it out. You can support slate, vital coverage and excellent writers and our. Podcasters who are working overtime with the slate plus membership, you'll get ad free access to all of our shows and exclusive members, only content lake. What we do in our Skoda's rundown with marches of stern I know a whole. Bunch of you have joined this week. 'cause you emailed the. Tell me about it and thank you. Please if you can afford to go to slate dot com slash amicus, plus to find out more and really all of us at slate. Thank you for your support. We want to turn now to Vanita Gupta. She served in the Obama Justice Department as head of the civil. Rights Division from two thousand fourteen till twenty seventeen. She focused on a lot of issues, including voting rights, and also racial is policing. Vanita now serves as president and Chief Executive of the Leadership Conference on Civil and human rights. That is a storied and amazing coalition that over the years has grown from an assembly of thirty civil and human rights organizations at its founding to more than two hundred civil rights groups today. Vanita one of the conversations I really wanted to have today of all days lies right at the intersection of all the work you do thinking about justice, civil rights and the police, and also thinking about the role of the Justice Department in both creating and solving for some of these problems. Welcome to the PODCAST. I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you for inviting me to be on. We may be start. I think it's a sort of a wonky place to start, but can you just walk us through the Civil Rights Division what it does what you did there? What your priorities were in the time that you headed up from two thousand fourteen to two? Two thousand seventeen in the Obama era. Yeah, when I was at the Justice Department I came in about two months after Michael, Brown had been killed in Ferguson and the Justice Department had just opened up a pattern and practice investigation into the Ferguson Police Department and as you'll recall, the country was on the streets over the policing issues. Michael Brown was killed. Just a month after Eric Garner had been killed in New York and a police violence, the issues around race and justice and public safety were occupying the nation at that time, and the kind of ramifications and the the concerns about these issues were nationwide. And so I came in, and I was at the Justice Department heading up. The Civil Rights Division for just under two and a half years and I would say that the policing issues were the most central. Kind of issues that I dealt with at the Justice Department every week that I was there. It seemed that there was a video that was going viral of an act of police violence. We were being called in into departments that were really had longstanding issues of a lack of trust of systemic problems around USA force and discriminatory policing. So these were issues that I spent a lot of time working on. During my time, we were enforcing fifteen consent decrees police departments across the country we had. Opened investigations into the Baltimore, PD CHICAGO PD and so these issues were very very much front of mind, not only for me as the head of the Civil Rights Division for the two attorneys generals that I worked with and for President Obama, who after Ferguson, really took a took it upon himself very personally to engage launching the twenty th century, policing task force, and so much more. Just for our non-legal listeners, can you just walk us through the terms of art pattern and practice and consent decree? Yeah, so in one, thousand, nine, hundred four after the Rodney King beating and the unrest in Los Angeles, Congress passed a that gave the Justice Department and the Civil Rights Division in particular the mandate to investigate systemic problems of unconstitutional policing in police departments. It is a tool that has been used very judiciously at the Justice Department. In a country of eighteen thousand police departments to have an administration like the Obama administration investigate twenty five. You can see how judicious the tool was that we were using. But What this looks like is that. No single incident would compel the Justice Department to open an investigation. It took usually patterns of unconstitutional policing issues coming to our attention whether it was because community members were giving data whether it was because there were a series of high profile. Incidents. But the trigger would be. There would be any number of triggers and the Justice Department than would open an investigation and a team of lawyers and investigators at the Civil Rights Division would then spend. Practically live in these cities spending anywhere usually from about six to twelve months interviewing hundreds of community residents, hundreds of police officers, combing through every document and record about their training manuals and records about stops, searches and arrests. Looking at accountability. System Supervision Systems. In really very kind of tailored to the problems in that local police department, and then would come up with a findings report, and the findings report would. Lay out the picture of of what was found in this police department after this thorough investigation and the Justice Department. If they made a found finding of unconstitutional, policing would then work with the jurisdiction to negotiate a settlement agreement that was that would be filed with a federal court that's called a consent decree. It would be filed with a federal court overseen by. By an independent monitor and the consent decrees typically last several years I would say on average. They're about five years they really compelled culture change policy change, practice change with a game to make police department have constitutional systems have self correcting mechanisms and rebuild trust with their communities, and can you just talk for a minute about the ways in which? I know we don't have all day. But the ways in which the Jeff sessions and now Bill Barge Department have rolled back some of the reforms that you tried to affect you. Wait on your watch. Yeah, where do I start so? I'll just say in a nutshell that. The trump administration under attorney, general sessions and bar have abdicated the justice department's responsibility in supporting and ensuring constitutional policing in communities in this country, not just through walking away from the tool that the civil rights division has through this pattern and practice. Investigation jurisdiction, but actually on any number of fronts they have not opened a single pattern and practice investigation into a police department, except on one with a very narrow issue out of Springfield Massachusetts the issue I. Don't even remember. It's a pretty staggering record of inaction and. Through rhetoric they say there were also other actions that they took. They largely dismantle the kind of collaborative reform program that was being operated by the community oriented policing services component at the justice. Department They withdrew a lot of memos and guidances that had been that we had issued to support community police, trust and constitutional policing, and then I would say they. Jeff sessions on his way out. After trump fired him the last action that he did at the Justice Department was to slap a memo onto the Civil Rights Division that made it almost impossible for the division to obtain consent decrees, not just in the police in context, but across the board, and that was really a gutting of the most impactful tool that the civil rights division has to correct systemic civil rights violations. And so and then you have the rhetoric. You had bill bar most recently on in a speech I. Think just a couple of months ago. Talking about how you know. If you want to criticize the police, you may not receive police protection. That kind of rhetoric is so incredibly irresponsible, and just heightens the kind of divide, polarization us, versus them warrior versus Guardian mentality that. For so many years we were trying to overcome not just at the Justice Department, but even among law enforcement leaders and community leaders that were seeking a different path forward so so vanita. I WANNA turn to George, Floyd, and to Brianna Taylor and Eric Garner and Michael Brown, and and and. This Extra Judicial Police, ending of black lives didn't start. This week in Minneapolis You published a piece in the Washington. Post this week about what a federal investigation into Minneapolis would look like if it were done correctly. Can you just walk us through what you think needs to happen to kind of correct? The damage that has been sort of engraved so deeply that it feels as though it's immutable. So. Let me, break down the one area that I did talk about what the justice. Department has in its tools as criminal accountability. The Justice Department has the ability to prosecute police officers for violating Federal Criminal Law. But it has a very narrow single statute that it can use to do this which the this law requires a highest proving the highest criminal intent standard requires proving not only that the force that was used was unreasonable but that. The officer involved knew that his or her act violated the law, but did it anyway and it me sound like not a big deal, but actually the burden that establishes for a federal prosecutor to prove is incredibly high, and so there have been a lot of high profile cases where. The Justice Department has not prosecuted because the evidence couldn't meet that threshold standard. I will say in this case that the facts around Mr Floyd's death, the multiple camera in broad daylight, the three officers on his body, one on his neck for several minutes the fact that he was already restrained in handcuffs, there was no physical provocation saying that he can't breathe repeatedly in deep distress, and other witnesses, pleading with officers, all of that and the fact that his own chief said that this was never a trained maneuver. All of this would lead me to believe that this is actually a case that the feds could prosecute, and could obtain a conviction and I can't say that very much confidence about most cases, and that's a travesty in and of itself jumping ahead, but this is one of the reasons why for the leadership conference and for many many groups right now There's a call for Congress to actually give federal prosecutors. Expanded charging option of being able to reach cases where the officer act recklessly, and we've got to expand this jurisdiction WanNa go to a related issue around us, which is that? You know for too long in this country. Police officers have been able to act with impunity in killing black men and women because the law frankly is just insufficient. and. Not only is the law insufficient. We've got problems around whether district attorney's offices are independent enough from police departments since police officers are there investigators? We've got problems with the limitations for example of of the federal law for the justice. Department But! We also have implicit bias of jurors that infect the and make it very hard to convictions There have been instances where things have been caught on video, and juries, just despite the what the they see on the video, and all the facts that are known have not convicted. Landau Casteel case, so there's a lot of layers of problems here, but criminal accountability. While while so crucially important to restoring anyone's faith in the legal system, especially for block communities and communities of color while it's crucially important, it isn't sufficient to being able to address some of these really. Grave systemic issues that that need to be addressed and that was. That's why the civil rights. Division has the pattern product practice jurisdiction, but ultimately. I have really come to understand that the Justice Department's interventions and police reform. Is itself a limited strategy because I actually do not believe that we can reform policing in America by just reforming the policies and practices, and even the cultures in police departments. We have a problem of hyper criminalization in this country, not new not started in the last few years, but has been. We've been saddled with this You know ever for the last fifty years. Where we have criminalized a lot of different. Things especially in communities of color where there's increased police presence increased interactions between police and residents for things that would never happen in your neighborhood or frankly mine, and we need to understand that that has been accompanied with divestment in education and jobs in public transportation and Housing and health care. And so. The confluence of the pandemic covid nineteen, which is laid bare, structural racism, and inequity and the confluence of. Structural racism in policing and Mr. Floyd's death is come together in this way that is really kind of established the degree to which we aren't going to solve the problems of policing until we understand that we have over invested in a criminalization infrastructure and underinvested in other kinds of investments that communities of color needs so badly. And you started to dip into this, but let's Get it on the table. Oh. Can you explain just for listeners? WHAT THE LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE IS! How long it's been around and I mean it's just an amazing collective of organizations, can you? Sort of lay out the mandate, the leadership conference on Civil and human rights is in its seventieth year we were founded in nineteen fifty by Jewish and African American labor leaders who came together really out of the theory that the fight for civil rights could MP one by one group loan, but to be waged coalition. It started out as you said as a smaller collection of organizations that were really fighting. For the Voting Rights Act. Helped Dr King organize the march on Washington and nineteen, sixty three, every major piece of federal civil rights legislation has in some way been shepherded crafted through the leadership conference. And over in recent times we have now become a staff of over one hundred people. We have over two, hundred, twenty, national, civil and human rights organizations, and we both push out actual program, and we also kind of helped bring together. Groups are a force multiplier to develop and sync up strategies across our organizations across our community, so we can be more effective and more strategic in specific campaigns to win, and it happened that because probably of my background when I came into the leadership conference after stepping down from the Justice Department I wanted to create a policing program that could in the void of Justice Department that was really cared about these issues and cared about the communities. Most in contact with the police that we could actually be a resource for continuing the conversation around police reform and last year we issued a really extensive guide and toolkit. That I was so proud this week. President Obama lifted it up himself a guide called New Era of public safety that dug into all of the research and best practices that came out of our consent decree, the Justice Department consent decrees the. Research out of the Justice Department civil rights organizations law enforcement. We had law enforcement vetted to progressive. Law Enforcement. And it's really to take into the next level. What the twenty first century policing task force put together, and we have been working on these issues and are now in quick order after Mr. Floyd's death brought together over four hundred thirty organizations along with an eight-point platform for what Congress needs to do immediately. There's a lot more work beyond these eight points immediately to take up. Things like banning choke holds creating a national registry of police misconduct, so that officers who cycle in and out of law enforcement with long disciplinary records are actually detected. In the hiring process, expanding the federal charging option to include a recklessness standard and the like, and so that's some of the work that we are able to do because we really do have that kind of ability to bring groups together around A. Agenda as we're fighting for justice in communities across the country. VANITA. Do you have the sense I don't know if this is me being pollyannaish elbow I've never been accused of being pollyannaish, but that that the conversation has slightly shifted away from the few bad apples narrative to systemic reform. I feel as though the number of police reform proposals that I'm hearing sort of systemic reform like the ones you're talking about. I'm hearing, you know. de-fund the police altogether renegotiate all union contracts, and all qualified immunity I'm hearing big systemic some of them possibly beyond your sense of of what? You want to achieve, but but am I right that this feels as though. There seems to be a public understanding that this is just not one or two racist cops I. Yes, absolutely, you know. I think that even Ferguson helped trigger that I think black lives matter a really set the tenor a conversation about some of the more structural systemic issues. But I think what's happened. Is there you know these cycles over and over again of an outrageous case, terrible case of tragedy followed by outrage followed by reforms, but ones that Don't stick I mean I will say. Congress rarely takes up policing issues It's been many years since Congress has taken up a bill on policing and so this is. The notion of reaching for bigger solutions Mr. Floyd's death was awful and terrible that they ought as awful as could be also landing at a time as I said where the country is any crisis, a massive economic recession a real sense of unequal opportunity that we will be saddled with for. A long time where you know amid this global pandemic and this real realization even on the eve of an election. That we cannot be reaching for for band-aid solutions or tinkering at the edges that we there is no return to normal that this incident. has so galvanized the country at a time and I don't think the reaction. The militarize reaction of the president has helped things at all, but it is forcing a much bigger conversation with one of our eight points Dolly S in. Some of the legal wants listening wander. Santa's is to qualified immunity. There is a real sense that there's been a law has protected officers from being from from accountability in myriad ways and qualified immunity is one of them. But I also think there's a broader conversation to have and when you look at city budgets why such a high percentage of these budgets are focused on policing at the expense of housing and education and other positive investments in their communities. and. I think that that is something that policymakers are really going to have to confront in a way that hasn't been confronted in a long time. And so you saw on Wednesday that mayor Garcetti made an announcement that would reduce the L. A. P. D. budget with the goal of reinvesting those save dollars in health and education and other interventions in communities. And, frankly that isn't a conversation. That was happening a few years ago, but there's a lot of demand for this now and I, think it's emanating out of a recognition that you not only have to reform policing on the inside of departments, and that's the systemic part that needs to happen, but also you have to address the kind of skewed priorities and distorted priorities and distorted public spending that we've had as a nation in communities of color for so long. Vanita I need to give you the chance to talk a little bit about the flip of this coin. which is you know we're seeing? Peaceful protesters have their masks. Down and pepper sprayed just to make sure it works. We are seeing peaceful protesters. You know assaulted with rubber bullets and teargas that then we're told is not tear gas at the same time. You have to be blind not to notice armed white militiamen walking down the streets fish down, you know taking selfies Philadelphia armed white militia men taking over the Michigan State House and police standing by and I think. Part of this conversation has to be that the police also tall rate, an immense amount of lawlessness and violent and threatening behaviour, if it comes from white men with guns. Yeah I mean there's been a lot of talk of. Those images that we all saw in Michigan outside of the State House. With armed white militia, you know yelling at the police and being no response whatsoever versus the response to protesters here now, look I there was there was a violence or property that was damaged and. Set on fire and. And nobody is saying that that should be allowed or just kind of watched and witnessed, but the treatment of peaceful protesters. Being treated this way with military. By with military force on the ground with with this mishmash of federal agents that aren't wearing identification and. Have no training in how to manage mass protests. This is scary. I mean this is. The the the act of Dispersing violently a crowd that was peacefully protesting outside of the church. This is the stuff that fascists do and I have to say you and I have talked about this over the years and watching the boiling the frog and the melting of our democracy. I think that these images and what's happening right now is absolutely frightening against a backdrop of an administration that has attacked. Fundamental Democratic norms and the rule of law repeatedly. We're going into an election cycle. We have been already a civil rights. Lawyers really deeply concerned about the level of which voter suppression is being weaponized for partisan gain We need to fight for a fair election where fighting disinformation on facebook, and they're you know the company's own action in helping to promote the messages of inciting statement of violence with the looters and shooters, posts and the. Posts about you know The lying posts about how mail in ballots are illegal and the like I mean this is a really tense and scary time for the country, and we have to protect people and make sure that they are safe from harm and I mean the Ernie as you said rightfully in your opening that. You know more and more people are being. Called to protest in this moment out of the reaction of the president, and the Attorney General in kind of militarising the streets. It's only doubling down on the underlying message that protesters are trying to get across but I think that we have a lot of work to do now and I know that it's easy to sit in despair. But I just despair is not going to save lives, and despair is not gonNA. Make Change, and so now we have to honor what the protesters are doing. Honor the anger. We are feeling honor the pain especially in black communities right now. And make sure that we don't just go to the old solutions. It won't be enough. To just return to the Obama era solutions that we were driving towards. We need to be bolder than that in this moment out of a recognition of how much work we have to do. But we've got to be action oriented and demand action from our leaders that are in positions of power to make change Vanita. So glad you talked about what I see as the fundamental horror of you know, Bill Bar conscripting some you know military entity that answers to the Justice Department. Unclear that people have legible identification it, it feels. Different to me! Do you have some way of describing how you feel about? The former Justice Department that you left behind and what's happened, I mean what do you is? It fixable is this. Is this redeemable? Can we get it back? The Justice Department with all of its norms, and it's courtesies and it's. Kind of unwritten views of the world, or is it forever broken? No I'm I'm a civil rights advocate. I have a deep and profound well of hope about these things. I think that the abyss that they have fallen into is deeper than I could have possibly imagined, but clearly I had a failure of imagination when it came to this administration. But I think it is rebuildable I think it's going to be really hard. I think people's faith in government and the justice systems legal systems has been really corroded in profound ways. What I want and we have seen too often. Is that when there's an opportunity to rebuild reinvest? Deal with standing attacks on democratic norms and the like. There's this desire to pretend like the prior. Years didn't happen, and to try to retain return to some quaint sense of normal and I think there's going to need to be some bold steps that we take as a country. In order to actually do the kind of rebuilding that will be required in the Justice Department when I think about the way the justice. Department is organized and the ways in which the Justice Department tries to approach police, thing or the ways in which the Justice Department has dealt with precedent. All so many of these norms has been torn down in this administration, and it's going to require some I think creative, and both thinking to not just. Just try to return to the pre trump days, but to try to now we've seen what the failure of our imagination can yield. What do we do to shore up? Our institutions are democratic norms and to rush to protect those who've been most vulnerable because of the attacks in this administration, these are not abstract principles just that we're fighting for these these attacks have had real impact in real communities and so being able to bring that kind of. Of thinking and courage because a lot of us when you work in institutions, you become kind of an `institutionalised, being able to see outside of the bounds of what we thought was possible in order to not return to this place. I think is going to be really important VANITA. That's it's really important what you're saying. It's something I know you live. I've been at enough of your events that I know this is the work that you long before. Before we got to this week in America that you've been really thinking about. You've given me at least I hope our listeners just a ton to think about Vanita. Gupta served in the Justice Department as head of the Civil Rights Division One of her focuses. There was on racialist policing. She is now the president and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights Vanita like I, said I know you're crazy busy, but thank you. Thank you so much for having me Dalia I'm really glad I could do it and beyond with you. And that is a rat for this episode of amicus. Thank you so much for listening in. Thank you so much for your letters and your questions and your thoughts and your feedback and your support, you can always keep in touch at amicus dot, com, or you can find us at facebook dot com slash amicus podcast. Today's show was produced by Sarah Birmingham. Gabriel Roth is a to`real director of slate podcasts Alicia Montgomery is executive producer of slate podcasts and June Thomas is senior managing producer of sleep podcast, and we will be back with another episode of amicus in two short weeks until then hang on in there and do.

Justice Department Civil Rights Division George Floyd Vanita Gupta America Boston University School of la Vanita Angela President Obama Justice Department Dean WanNa Congress officer Michael Brown Supreme Court
A Conversation With a Police Union Leader

The Daily

53:28 min | 5 months ago

A Conversation With a Police Union Leader

"Blue, hey there? Are you. Good Good I. I'm Michael Barbaro. Are you doing vince champion? Mr Champion Nice to meet you. Three through. Sounds like you've been having pretty long days, so we appreciate you. It's been. It's been interesting to say the least. Can you. Start by telling me what you do. I am the southeast regional director for the International Brotherhood of police officers up. Basically I'm the director for the Got And for those who don't know the International Brotherhood of police officers. This is a major police union in the US. Yes are we are national? Union and we are all over the US. But all around. We're probably just. The officers alone were at about fifteen thousand. You know I want to ask you as a union head about what appears to be a growing consensus that in this discussion and this debate about changing policing. That Union. have been a barrier that they have created. Systems and you get with us, but let me just get through it. The perception is the unions have created systems that protect police officers. At times even the most problematic officers by making it challenging to see complaints against those officers enviro wrecking significant barriers to firing them. Do you think that that's fair? To a certain extent, yeah! You think so. From New York Times I'm Michael Barr. This is daily. Today. In the weeks since George, Floyd was killed by former Minneapolis police officer Derek Sheldon Americans have been confronting hard questions about bias and racism within policing. And what the rule of the police should be. And in the face of those questions is another question. Is the culture of policing and the resistance to change by some police unions, so entrenched that whatever change is necessary, would require fundamental rethinking from the outside, rather than incremental change from within police departments and their unions. In that context, we wanted to talk to someone who sits at the heart obese questions. Vince champion is a police union representative in Atlanta Georgia. Georgia is a right to work. State where police officers aren't required to join the Union or pay dues, so the unions don't hold the same power to block reforms as they do in many states. And Champion has supported some of the reforms that unions have been criticized for resisting in the past. Including banning calls the use of body cams and transparency around policy officers records. And like many law enforcement officials, champion has forcefully condemned officer shopping. But when it comes to another high profile, police killing in his own city, the killing of Race Chard Brooks just weeks after floyd staff. Champions views are more complicated. It's Monday. June twenty-ninth. Vince I. Want to talk about the protests that have been happening all over the country and I'm curious what you think as a union leader when you have seen these vast crowds in two thousand US cities towns, protesting the death of Ray Sharp Brooks George, Floyd. We oughta Taylor among many others. What did you see when you watch those? People that have a message that. They believe. That, it's DEMOC racism in the police departments, and they believe that because of the color of their skin. They're treated a certain way. They're afraid because of the color of their skin, their children may go out and not come on. That is what I heard. In one of the biggest things that I took out of all the videos that I watched, and everything was the word on a de-escalation that officers need to learn how to deescalate. Valid points. But I guess to answer your question. I think I heard what the protesters were saying I. Don't disagree with the protesters. I want everybody to be able to say. You to. Be Able to tell their kid when we're not there to protect you. That man uniform is go to him. And, if the end of the day, that's what we need to get, too. That's why I became a cop. You're talking about the need for change and I wondered just to start. Your views are on what needs to change in policing. I mean what I would love to see. Is Law enforcement? Go to. Anybody. That's willing to represent the black community in have that conversation. What do you feel we're doing? And then we tell them here's what we're actually doing now. How can we bring you the community? To to us and we meet in the middle. Is it that we need more social workers to where police officer is acting like a social worker? Do we need that? Get more financing towards where we can make a phone call in the police to say I need a psychiatrist here and instead of them saying well, we gotta find so- by. It's GonNa take two or three hours because we don't have money to put anybody there, or can it be? Yeah, we've got a person on call. They'll be there in ten minutes so now we can stand by and wait for them. They can take over that mental health aspect that child protection thing and then we. We are asked to myriad of things. That are socially. Driven. And what I'LL! He'd rather see like are talking about having the ability to have a social worker. On call. The unfortunate part is it's totally opposite of the defunding of law enforcement. You know it comes down to the politicians and I really hate to be that way, but it does and instead of building. Parks that make no sense putting flowers up and down the roads that probably going to die, and you're GonNa have to replace or something. Why can't we take that budget money and move it over to? I'll stand next to the community in fight for that. Every day. While you're describing is similar in some ways to what protesters and activists and reforms are asking for a social worker at ASEAN, instead of a police officer, a therapist at scene instead of. I hear you saying that that is at odds with defunding and dismantling police, but help me understand why if a social worker takes the place of a police officer, if a group of therapists is on call instead of a traditional police officer. Then why do you need more money for policing? Don't you need less money for One? You meant you mentioned replace. I'm not asking to replace. They have to go hand in hand. There has to be more of them or as many of them as there is officers. I think too many years. There's GonNa be some skepticism to the idea that there's not a lot of money spent on policing and the question becomes. How is that money spent on policing? For example, let's go back to the therapist or the social worker who might go out and deal with the police call. Are you suggesting that a police officer needs to be with social worker? Is there need to be two people at that scene? What if there's one and if there's one? Do we need that police officer. I guess one of the interesting questions of moment is. Are you all called? Too much is the system. Built too heavily around the idea that you dial those three digits nine, one one and a police officer with a gun shows up, is that? Not What we need. What do you think? It's a good question because. Back, there are scenarios where. Yeah! We weren't needed. and. Maybe. We shouldn't have gotten the call. But unfortunately. That's the system. They only know nine. One one way knows the seven digit number ten did number to call anyone else so right I guess in. If you look at it that way, and you're framing it that way. I still don't know if. There's enough funding, but if you're talking in relation to if we took. Calls away, I don't WanNa. Say Away, but a calls that aren't necessary for law enforcement and we were able to. I don't know how we would do at teach or whatever the word you use the public to call another number. Then maybe yeah, that would that May. Be something that would cause the cost factor to go down. I mean again I. Don't believe that would be a systematic across the board defunding. I think if we start doing that and. Let's say that using your argument that works out everybody starts to. Now Call. They see a homeless person themselves instead of calling law enforcement. They call the therapist number that person goes out. Goes real good. They get that person someplace to live or figure out how to get them safe in those calls for service. Go down in that league's law enforcement to. Handle the real I. Guess Emergencies. Yeah, I think if you put that in practice, and then you start doing on a cost analysis on it. It could actually lower the budgets. And I'm not even saying now That The budgets shouldn't be looked out and seeing if there's another way to do that because look a lot of officers. were social workers. We're marriage counselors where doctors sometimes we're. We're more than actually what we were trained to be I mean. We try to train for everything that we can, but. We just can't be then then, but you then expect us to you're not you? I'm just saying as a side right as a whole you expect us to and then when we. Slip up where the enemy. In Yeah I mean I could I can see your point. Right and I think for for the people. WHO ARE CALLING FOR REFORM? What you have described as a problem is to them a problem as well. Police officers trained for one thing public safety being asked. To respond to all manner of scenarios that are not pure questions of public safety, and then there being problems and those encounters that have now led people to question why police respond to those in the first place. Good point I mean I can't disagree what. Do. You ever find yourself as a union leader. Representing a police officer who has been disciplined. And who faces perhaps expulsion termination? And yet because of a contract or because of your own. Union instincts and ethos. You're supposed to defend them. I'm thinking about for example. Officers that we have learned about over the past few years with. Ten twelve, fifteen, seventeen. Complaints of his conduct against them who ended up in one of these shootings and everyone looks back and says well look at that record, and then I always imagined maybe a misogynist. There's a union official. Maybe it looks like you and he is defending that officer. From. Being terminated. I think us a broad brush. What I I took over in. Florida the Union. First elected as the president. I lost members because. I refused the lie for him. To. Try to keep their jobs. By job as a union representative is to give you the ability to be treated fairly. If, you did wrong. We need to go forth in. Go before whomever. We have to go for for your due process. The one fortunate thing that I have a right to work state as I'm not bound to represent everybody I have the right, even though you pay the dues to us and there. I have the right to turn down for representation. The reason I'm asking these questions because some police unions around the country have resisted efforts to make public complaints against police officers, and they have fiercely resisted. Eliminating firing police officers who are. Accused of a pattern of misconduct. Do you feel like unions are invested. In the status quo in ways that mean. That it is. Going to be hard is hard will always be hard to change policing in this country. Song? I think that patterns should be checked. I don't know why anyone union or or other. In the police would want to. Have Somebody on there. That's going to cause this issue. I hope not. Again a bad cop. Whether we like it or not. We get paid with a broad brush. So why would we want to continue having? Those individuals around causing those problems worse. Earning. A. Upward is giving one million dollars talent grants to businesses working to counter the ongoing impacts of Kobe nineteen as the world's largest network of remote professionals. They're connecting existing teams with remote experts in tech, creative and operations in an effort to help save lives and rebuild the economy to learn more go to upward dot com slash work together. I, this is Veronica. Chambers senior editor special projects for the New York Times on June nineteenth, eighteen, sixty five union soldiers arrived in Galveston Texas to declare the civil war had ended, and that enslaved African Americans were now free that day became known as June team, a celebration of freedom long in the making this June teeth came in a moment when black Americans are still fighting for justice and equality, still wrestling with what? What some call unfreedom! We've been talking about it across the newsroom, asking ourselves and others. What is freedom? How do we celebrate it? Can Freedom be seen heard tasted? Are Some of us more free than others? Can we all acknowledge that? And can we change that a group of Writers and editors at The Times that explore these questions and more you can meet the stories at ny times dot com slash June teeth. On June twelve less than three weeks after George Floyd's killing in Minneapolis. A police officer in Atlanta responded to a nine one one call from a Wendy's employee who reported that a man had fallen asleep in the drive through lane. That man was twenty seven year. Old Ray Shark Brooks. Visiting revisited. Very. Sorry to hear that. She for. been probably about a year and a half now. Okay, I'm sorry. Birthdays Pass as my colleagues have reported for much of the encounter brooks who operated with police. She has her. Few! As yes, or no, it's completely. Okay. But after failing a sobriety test, the two officers on the scene, Garrett Ralph and Devin Brosnan tried to handcuff him. Brooks then punched officer Ralph. Took control of officer. Brosnan's teaser fired it and ran from the officers. Officer Ralph chased after him. Brooks turned around fired. A second tasers shot overalls head. Rolf drew his gun and Shot Brooks, twice in the back. Killing him. Five days later. The Fulton County District Attorney Paul. Howard held a press conference. So We have decided to issue warrants in this case the gate. Where he announced that officer Brosnan was being charged with aggravated assault. We have had something quite remarkable to happen in this case, and it involves the testimony of the other officer Devon Brosnan but that he was participating in the investigation and would be a witness against officer Ralph. He plans to make a statement regarding the culpability of. Officer off who is being charged with murder, and who, if convicted would face life in prison or the death penalty Ralph was aware that the Taser in rich's possession that it was fired twice Howard said that officer life was never endanger in once. It's fired twice. It presented no danger him. Already any other persons and Howard revealed new details about the encounter. What we discovered is. That officer Ralph Actually Kick Mr Bruce. While? He laid on the ground. While, he was there fighting for his life. We were able to conclude. That Bastogne, the way that these offices conducted themselves while Mr Brooks was lying there. That, the demeanor of the officers immediately after the shooting. Did Not. Reflect any fear. Are Danger of Mr Brooks, but their actions really reflected. Other kinds of emotions. ooh! Both of the officers are represented by the International Brotherhood of police. And I. Vince Champion who quickly criticized the investigation? We want to understand why champion a union official who supports reform? Is defending the officers in the Bronx killing. I wonder. What it means to have a member of your union, a police officer charged with murder in the line of duty. Well a Only to correct because of the severity, he's actually Georgia being charged with murder, which means that if he's not put to death, he will spend the rest of his life in prison without a chance for parole. And to answer your question. It's heavy on my heart and disheartening not so much the charge the fact that the due process in the investigation to that led to the charge was. Not done at all and very properly. What do you mean I know? You came right away and you said that firing officer. Ralph was rushed. Do you still feel that way? After reading the charges? After watching the news conference from the district attorney videos all the information that has come out. And they. I feel more, so you know we've said from day one we the Union. Look at the videos and everything. We're not saying where there was a good shoot or bad. Shoot we we don't have enough evidence to say that. Normally held a situation goes on. Alter involved shootings the GBI. Georgia Bureau of Investigation does the investigation the officers either put on administrative leave without pay, and then the the results returned to the DA or to the city, but the district attorney here decided to do his own investigation that he normally doesn't do. And then after he did his press conference. We found. I guess to be politically correct misspoken misspoken. Or lies that he did, and we haven't even been entitled to all of the investigative material. So yeah, we still believe that it was a Russian investigation and it was politically motivated. I just want to make sure I understand what you are referring to when you say that there are cases where the district attorney may have misspoken. What do you mean? In his press conference The district attorney came out and stated that also bras on a second officer on the scene. Had turned state witness, and he was going to testify against officer. Roth that ended up not being true less than ten minutes after that statement came out the attorney for. Brosnan said that had never happened. He is not going to testify against other alter. He never city turn state witness. He's never. Pled guilty any charges, and he has cooperated with the DA meaning answering questions and stuff, but he's never said that he would be state witness so. You know the question then becomes. If you're not telling the truth now, or you're having inconsistencies. How can we believe your report? Or did you just do a shoddy investigation? If that's the case, you should have allowed what we consider it professionals, which is a unbiased outside agency from Atlanta Deji Bi there. The state organization that does this. Okay so. Those issues aside, and I understand why you have raised them. I wonder what you make of the evidence. That has been presented knowing that it may not be entirely complete. To summarize what the district attorney has said in his public presentation, he's officer revolves. Life was never in danger. That he shot Rashard, Brooks in the back when Brooks was running away, and that after Brooks was shot officer Ralph kicked him as he lay dying. Do. You dispute any of that. Yeah. As far as The first one that you talked about that that also serves Ross. Life was never in danger. Let's not forget. There was a fight ensued. One officer did go to the hospital with a concussion. And I guess it depends on whether you subscribe to that a Tasers, not a deadly weapon. But the TASERS is considered a deadly weapon under Georgia law. You're referring to the fact that race art books. Grabbed the officer's Taser and shotted. At the officer now I watched the District Attorney's news conference in what he said. Was that at the time? Racial are Brooks. was shot twice in the. By officer off he had. Twice shot the Taser in such a way that it was essentially empty and unusable, and that this would be something that an officer like officer. All would know having. Carried a as user Taylor that it contained to tasers shot so in that case. Does that complicate the point that you're making here? No because the TASERS considered unusable after the two shots, the tasers also has a method or a way to use it in drive stunt situation, and what that means is, you can actually walk up to a person like the old stun-guns that Arkan between us to touch people with them. The tasers still has that affects which still an active weapon. Sure, but. Brooks was eighteen feet away. I believe at the time that he was. Twice shot and he was moving away from the police. Will that your assumption that Brooks? Didn't wouldn't stop and turn around and come back. It was evident that he was running. Yes, but if he decided to stop comeback, kid have been years. But at the moment that. Are Off. The MR books. He wasn't in close range, and it wasn't capable of being stung so i. just want to be very clear on the question of. In what way officer wealth would have believed that his life was in danger. In that moment, you're painting a scenario where something could have changed, someone might have done something. Brooks might have turned around might have come back at him, but at that very moment. Eighteen feet away or so when the cartridges has been spent in, it's only role was as a stun gun. How was officer offs? Life endanger. Will. You're assuming that they didn't fire simultaneously. You don't know that we don't know that you're assuming that. He fired the Taser and then off Serov shot. Will neither nobody knows that including the district attorney. You don't know when also Ross decided to squeeze the trigger. We don't know when Mr Brooks decided to squeeze the trigger. Did they do it at the same time, did they not? We don't know we can find that out. So again. You're making an assumption that. You Brooks fired, and then the officer fired. We just don't know that and I can't make that assumption either. My recollection from watching. The video and the president. You can't do that I mean I you. You can't because you don't you don't know. You haven't done time distance. You don't know the time that it takes for person to think to squeeze the trigger. You don't know how much time it took him to draw his weapon, so I don't know how you can make any assumptions from that video in if you're asking that, that's what you're asking for solutions. Not Facts. So in your mind, there's not sufficient evidence to discount the possibility. That officer raw felt his life was endangered despite the distance despite this state of the Taser. I don't know we're asking for due process and for an investigation, and if the investigation proves what you're saying. that. That's an issue. If it saying what you're saying is wrong, then it was a good shoot but I. don't have an opinion there because I don't work on opinions. A work on evidence and I haven't seen all the evidence. And I'm not going to answer. Get painted in a corner or try to ask a question what I answered you live is as a Taser instructor. What we teach what they say what the law says. It doesn't matter quite honestly. If Georgia law, it clearly says that the tasers a deadly weapon, so I mean what's the difference of? If guns, a deadly weapon tasers a deadly weapon? You Point to one of your justified for using deadly force. I want to turn to the visual evidence that prosecutors pointed to in their presentation of officer Ralph Kicking Brooks his body once he had been shot and I know that. Talking about the specifics of this is tricky for you, but you are a longtime officer. You train people. You're a union representative that feels like a singular moment, and all of this, and is that appropriate conduct ever appropriate conduct for an officer will first off to your first part of the question during the press conference with. Paul Howard never showed a video of also. Roth kicking Mr Brooks. He showed US still shy. Yes, he showed a picture of the show picture. That's a picture now. We all know pictures worth a thousand words. We knew what it appears from the picture. We don't know what led up to that. Where exactly in time that was? But with all that being said you are correct. there's no reason to kick a suspect. And you, we don't train the do that. Were not allowed to do that. That's normally not the course of business, so that part of the question I would agree an answer that no, it should be done. However, do I take Paul Howard's word at what? That's what? That pitcher meant no, Sir I, do not. But that's why we have investigations. And even though it's been numerous times, the media has jumped out in swore that that officer was wrong, but after the all the evidence, the videos were looked at properly in context. Almost, all of those have been turned over, or they have been found guilty, but yet the started out looking at them. You know and if we're going to get to a society. Where Mayer's district attorney's can look at video. That looks bad I don't like it, so I'm going to terminate you. Charge you with murder. That's a that's a bad precedent start. I mean ultimately. I'm asking obvious questions because. I think a lot of people's reaction to this incident above all. Is. Why did a man who found asleep? In Wendy's drive-thru men who is not armed when this interaction began, and a man really just wanted to go home. Why did he end up dead at the end of this encounter in at the hands of police? We did not just get shot because he was in the wind each parking lot asleep and he just wanted to all now. That's not what happened. He chose the fight. The officers feature to be a fleeing felon. When he hit the officer in the head, it gave him a concussion, and then the officers reacted at that point. So, you can have the conversation all day whether you agree or not that the shot was was right or wrong it. We can wait for the evidence, but would you can't dispute, or you should not be saying is that a man was killed because all he wanted to do was go home, and he was just sitting in Wendy's drive through any fell asleep so I, don't I don't you know words have meaning? So when you say certain words, you have to understand that you. You need to say what you mean. And say that we are training should keep us from killing. A man that would just wanted to go home. Just isn't genuine. I wonder if you believe as many. Do. That race was a factor in his death. The prosecutor insinuated this when he spoke of other kinds of emotions. Do I feel. A lot of people ask those questions and. You know it's hard to answer because I personally don't ever see race I never have. been a law enforcement for over thirty years. I don't care. which color creed race I? It doesn't matter your human. Being I will treat you as that until you you know will act the same way you act towards me if we're cordial, we're talking. We're going to be cordial in talking if you're going to fight me. I'm going to defend myself. Do I think these officers decided to shoot Mr Brooks. 'cause that appears basically what you're asking me. Because of his skin color. Absolutely no, no, no, the question being did race play a factor in this not was he killed because. They sought out. I answer your question no I don't think so. I don't know how you could I mean other than. We are in the climate that we're in today how you draw that? Does to be sure entertaining in your mind. Would would a white man or a white woman who engaged in the same behavior as Rashard Brooks. Do you think that they would have also? Ended up dead. That's the way you ask the question. Yes Kind of offensive. But, why do you think? If. You're asking me. If a white person, man or woman would have done exactly what Mr Brooks stead. Would've been shot and possibly died from it. Yes. If they did exactly what it is I believe that would have happened the same way. But the way you framed it is. That if it was a white person, would they have been killed? You, you keep saying where they've been killed Mr. Brooks was killed because of actions that led up to it. The officer did not go out again and I. Don't know why we have to keep stressing this. He didn't go out to plan to kill Mr Brooks or anybody that day. But the way you made it sound if that was a white person, let's just go there. If that was a white person. That did the exact same thing that Mr Brooks stead. Absolutely, they would have been shot. I. I don't know how to say that in clear. Let's. Let's cab that by saying with the exact same. Actions, but the gotta be the exact same actions. We have to be talking about the same situation and just switching the color. But I I wonder if this connects to something that you said earlier. You said that you don't see race and I wonder if you've ever heard pushback on that concept, the idea that it's possible to be colorblind. Because there's a very strong line of thinking that. I've heard that I'm apparently I am racist because I say I. Don't see color. No, let me just let me just get through this. Because I think it's I think it's important. That concept, it may be very well intentioned. Race but the thinking is that it's actually dangerous, because if a person. Says I. Don't see race then. What you may actually be saying is that you don't see black people is different from white people or as treated differently, and then therefore you don't see racism. And it means that no measures will be put in place to acknowledge that the reality of being a black person is different than the liberality of being away person so the point being it's actually important to see race. It's important to see race. In order to change. Policing. that. I think that's the problem. Why. When I say I don't see race. That means I treat. Everybody is the same. But! It doesn't mean that I don't see. The struggles that other people have. And that is that's the difference in. If that offends somebody I apologize for that, but what I mean. Is there a human being? But it's not that I don't see that there's racism I'm not saying that there isn't what I said to. YOU IS I. See It as far as I. Don't do it me as my person me as vince champion I do not. Subscribe to that type of stuff. And you know it's interesting. We're sitting here having this conversation, but nobody really wants to talk about how many times officers has stepped in and protected people from racism. And nobody knows about it because you know why, because that's our job. And you talk about seeing it. Absolutely, we see it. It just seemed like everybody wants to make people talk different and at different when. You ask the question. I don't see it. In, that's the only way I can explain it for anybody say that makes me a racist shame on you. You want to change what words mean. To it. No. You're making clear that you do see it. You see you're saying you have seen acts of racism. So you do? See Race. Correct! Racism. I I'm curious. No please no God. Here's the. You know you're walking. Down the road and I understand the questioning, but here's the problem that I see how I see it. A lot of people are going to have this argument. About race and systemic racism in law enforcement. The Statistics Don't prove it. And you go and pull nationwide, and you pull in certain cities in states, law enforcement records and I. Just did this at this. Because I had to do this in front of the City Council in Chattanooga, Tennessee. In Two Thousand Nineteen USA Force fifty nine percent were white. Thirty, nine percent were black. If, you start looking nationwide. You start seeing similar. Percentages so the issue is statistically. The. Argument isn't there. My opinion, my opinion only. The statistics are not the issue. What the issue is is the perception from the black community that that is what's going on. So where we in law enforcement, fall short is, we don't change in help. Change that perception. Counter. What you have just described in those statistics and the idea that this is. A question of perception rather than conduct in patterns. I'm sure you know. Some of US local and federal investigations have found. What they describe as systemic racial bias in the Chicago Police Department in the Baltimore Police Department. In the Ferguson Police Department now in Ferguson what they found was that black drivers were more than twice as likely to be searched after being stopped, as white drivers were in New York City, where I live data makes clear that police stopped and frisked black and Latino New Yorkers at significantly higher rates than. They actually represent in the city, but eighty three percent of the stops. During a decade, long period involved Blacken Hispanics even though they make up about fifty percent of the city's resident so eighty-three percent of stops fifty percent of the city's residents, and in Minneapolis just a few weeks ago, data showed that use of force against black people in that city was seven times greater than it was against white people in the city, so the idea that it's just perception rather than a documented data based conclusion about conduct does not seem accurate. Because all of that data. Seems to point to a pattern of racial discrimination. I'm not gonna a dispute the fact of what you're saying. One Idol Apple Stats I'll take your word for the stats. You said three or four cities. I said one seven. So. The the the thing is you know you can go to your states and pull yours I can go to my states and pull mine now is their departments. That actually may have it. I'M NOT GONNA. Argue that point you're probably. Yes, that could be absolutely right. I just think that trying to go to our respective corners. If you would and make our arguments is not going to do it. We in law enforcement have to admit. That in the black community. This is how they feel. How do we prevent them from feeling? You keep saying feel and I believe that is a deliberate choice. But when a black American is hurt or killed in one of these interactions. In many cases by a white police officer. Do, you understand why that doesn't feel like a perception. Sure I could understand that I understand what you're saying, but we can do this all day long, but that's not helping anything. What we need to do is fix why. It is the way that it is and why people feel that way because. If we try to. Prove and try to change that. And make it better two words, not that way. Isn't it the same whether it's a perception of reality? We talked about the concept of systemic racism in policing. And you said that you didn't think police officers are operating with racist assumptions. Do you think police officers operate with unconscious bias. Police officers as you know, they have enormous discretion and power. They carry guns. They can end lives and I think. What people who are protesting and demonstrating now are talking about. Our decisions that don't feel conscious. They may not be intentional, but they are kind of baked into how people operate. And how the police? Are you asking me if I believe that's. The rule, or if that happens, if it can, if it does explain behavior, and if it's a reality. Yes I would say probably so. Could somebody because of their upbringing and how they lived their life and everything. subconsciously do that. Yeah and the main reason that I would have to say yes, is when you're in a stressful situation, you technically you don't think the sub-conscious takes over in you react. When a law enforcement officer has their training that they go through. You try to train that. If you're going to be in a stressful situation that your training's got to take over not your thought process so. With that being said. You're sub-conscious if you've trained yourself over your years of living. A certain way, and maybe you've. Suppress those because it's not societally acceptable in. You're trying to be a good person in society that under a stressful situation could that by? It's come out un-spin knowingly. I mean that only would make common sense since. Scientifically. It, actually it works. In training and other stuff so. I could see that could be a true statement. And I think that's where. Somebody, who was black? And somebody who has had an experience. With the police said is unpleasant and maybe even violent. Would say that's not a perception. That's their reality. I'm curious. What coversations you and your colleagues are having in this moment I have to assume that you go into the office each day. The Union headquarters, or you meet with rank and file officers, and you're all absorbing these protests. And I'm I'm curious what kinds of conversations you are having in this moment? The conversations are really questioning whether we want to continue to do the job. What the conversations are becoming. Are More of. More of digging down in our personal. Being to decide is did we do this job for the right reason are the wrong reason. I walked into this job. My son has walked into this job for what it's four to protect and serve as Cliche as that sounds. That's why we do those. We, don't you know we don't get holidays and weekends off? We know they're going Ed. We know that the pay is not the best we know that going in. we know we could get hurt or killed. We know that going in, so you look at yourself in you. You know. Why are you doing the job? That's been the conversation. Is The job Gigi to where? It's not what you. Thought it was. It's not maybe for you. L. Now. Are you becoming the dinosaur officer that needs to go. Area everybody says things are done like there used to well, that's true. They're not so. You gotTA learn to conform. And make these changes and if you don't think you can. Maybe, it's time for you to move ought. Finally, appreciate your time Miss Champion! It's been good talking to you. Again Jordan During an interview on CNN. Paul Howard the Fulton County District Attorney was asked about claims that his prosecution of officers Ralph and Brosnan is politically motivated in is the same criticism. We have head in every police case particularly, no matter how important the case was, the more important are significant. The case, the more the accusation was that it was political. This is nothing new. Howard said that politics has played. No, we've charged it based upon the facts, and I'm hoping that the people in this country will get away from the little criticisms and understand the broad pitcher. This is a twenty seven year old man who's dead. He didn't have the data. These shootings are continuing to happen all of our country and I think what those protesters in all over the country. They not demonstrating because they thought Paul Howard did something political. They're demonstrating because citizens in our country contain die, and a high number of those citizens are African Americans Will write back. Sal Khan's than a decking building Khan, academy, the free remote learning platform now suddenly it seems custom-made for today we realize is one of those moments where you look left. Look right I think this is us I'm Alicia Berg host of the podcast that made all the difference I'll be talking to some incredible people like sal about how they're managing the crisis while helping others through it find that made all the difference anywhere. You get your podcasts created by Bank of America. Here's what else you need to not. Both the window is closing. We have to act and people as individuals have to act responsibly. We've got the Sunday the secretary of Health and Human Services. Alex, as are told NBC News that the Corona Virus was on the verge of becoming an uncontainable crisis in the US. We need to social distance. We need to wear our face coverings if we're in settings where we can't social distance particularly in these hot zones. Over, the weekend infection soared across the West and south with forty two thousand new cases identified on Saturday alone. Texas and Arizona reported a record number of hospitalizations and testing sites in Florida turned people away because lines became so long. Look if you listen to what the secretary said, if you listen to what the President says, they're saying what they said three months ago. they basically in denial about the problem. They don't want to tell the American people. The truth and they don't want to have any federal response except supporting the state supporting this speaking on meet the press after his our New York Governor Andrew Cuomo blamed the trump administration for failing to act decisively. And forgiving little guidance to states. So I. Heard that and I understood where they were I knew what they were saying. You're on your own. And it's not a good feeling, but it sort of liberating so it. As of Sunday night the virus has infected more than two point, five million Americans and killed at least one hundred and twenty five thousand of them. Across the world it has infected ten million people and killed nearly five hundred thousand. That's it for the daily. I'm Michael Barr. See Tomorrow. Between two or cancellations lost creative gags and shrinking ad revenue. The covid nineteen crisis is making it clear that the system supporting creative people is broken patriotic offers a better way. 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The Trump Administration's Response To DC Protests

Fresh Air

48:27 min | 6 months ago

The Trump Administration's Response To DC Protests

"From whyy in Philadelphia. Anterior gross with fresh air today, the role Attorney General William Bar has played in the trump administration's response to the peaceful protests, and to the looting and arson. In Washington DC The administration called in law enforcement from the National Guard Customs and Border Protection. Immigration and Customs, enforcement and the Bureau of prisons active duty, military troops were put on standby. On Monday June I just before the President's Bible Photo OP, peaceful protesters were pushed back with smoke, teargas and pepper spray. We'll talk with Matt sabotage. Sqi Who covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post. We'll also talk about the Justice Department's response to previous accusations of systemic racism in local police departments. Last week in Washington DC and response to peaceful protests, and to looting and arson, the trump administration called in the national guard customs and Border Protection Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and the Bureau of prisons active duty. Military were put on standby. On Monday June I. Smoke Teargas, pepper balls, and according to protesters, rubber bullets were used to clear peaceful protesters from Lafayette Square across from the White House. Just before, President Trump's Bible photo op. Many protesters have called for defunding the police on Sunday of this week. The Minneapolis City Council passed a veto-proof resolution to dismantle the city's police. Department the Council, President Lisa Bender said it's our commitment to end policing as we know it and recreate systems of public safety that actually keep us safe. My Guest Matt's Petoskey covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post in an article he co wrote the White House was described as being so fortified. It resembled a monarchical palace or authoritarian compound. We're going to talk about the role of Attorney General William Bar and how the trump administration has handled the protests, and how the Justice Department has been dealing with previous complaints about police, brutality, police, killings and systemic racism. That's petoskey welcome to fresh air. You for having me. So Minneapolis is planning to disband. The police force and recreate something William. Bar has said I think there's racism in the US but I don't think that the law enforcement system is systematically racist. Is the Department of Justice doing anything to examine the George Floyd case. The doing something to examine the George Floyd case in particular in that they've opened a civil rights investigation into the death, so that would look at whether the particular officers involved who are already facing state charges whether they violated federal civil rights law in George Floyd's death. What they've not done is this broader pattern or practice investigation, and that would look well beyond George, Floyd's death into the broader systems and policies and training in place at the Minneapolis Police Department to determine whether there's any sort of systemic discrimination. There are other systematic problems. How is it being interpreted that the Justice Department is not looking into that? While the Justice Department is under a lot of pressure to look into that. The Democrats on the House judiciary. Committee have called for them to do that. Many civil liberties advocates have called for them to do that. These investigations are sort of a foolproof tool for forcing reform right and like you see in Minneapolis some local leaders want to go even further end to fund or dismantle the Police Department and. Change it structurally there, but these pattern of practice investigations are something the Justice Department has used in previous administrations to force reforms of Police Department so the Justice Department Justice Department is under a lot of pressure to do that here. William Bar tap by trump to direct the national response to the protests. Is that typically the Attorney General's role? In this instance I think his role grew beyond what you normally think of the attorney general doing the attorney. General is the chief law enforcement officer of the country, and his in command of all sorts of components, the FBI the ATF, the DA, but in this instance we saw his authority kind of expanded. He was coordinating. Not just does agencies that are inside the. The Justice Department, but he had some role in commanding, Department of Homeland Security Agencies, in the days of severe unrest in DC, so that would include the park police right that is a little abnormal on another thing that kind of happen here is barred deployed to the streets agencies that you normally don't see doing this type of work that a part of the. The Justice Department normally but normally don't see them on the street, and the best example of that is he brought into DC, bureau of Prisons, riot teams normally what these guys do is when there is unrest inside of prisons. They put a stop to that, but bill bar brought them out to the street. That is unusual. Those guys are are his authority all the. The time right, but you almost never see them on the street. And that's what happened here and by his telling. These guys are specialists in quelling riots, and that's what he felt was going on, but also the DA. the ATF the FBI everybody in his control kind of was descended on DC to put a stop to what he saw as violent unrest. You know another question about the bureau of prisons when. When people are trained to deal with a prison riot. Then is really different than dealing with a protest about a police killing. I'm sure that the training is probably different for that. Were there any objections within the trump administration? Do bringing out? People trained in prison riots to the streets of Washington. I don't know that you saw any internal objections, but you certainly saw some of the issues that come with that. These guys were on the street without any identifying information in some cases, so people would pass them. Ask who they are. They wouldn't respond. There would be no sort of visible marker on them to say they were bureau of Prisons The director of the Bureau of Prisons has sort of apologized for that and noted as as you just did. These guys normally work in institutional settings? They don't have to identify themselves. The inmates know who they are, and why they're not usually working on the street. And he said maybe he could have done a job of marking them. That can be really important right because if something goes wrong and there's video of an incident. You would want to know who is doing. What in that video? Video. Not only would you want them to be marked with an agency, but you might want them to be marked with some kind of identifying number, so you can figure out who is responsible for what also when there are so many law enforcement agencies on the street. You want different police to know who the other police are. Something goes wrong so local law enforcement agencies need to know that they're dealing with legitimate federal law enforcement, and when you have someone just unmarked. That's harder to do. What we're customs and Border Protection an ice immigration and customs enforcement. Doing there and the Transportation Security Administration. All of these people were kind of feeling. Filling what they normally do, but just in the context of protests, so like I'm thinking in particular of Da. They gave da this broader authority to kind of enforce laws and collect intelligence, so they were doing that, but they were also doing security at federal buildings, and that's because the people who normally do that might actually have to be deployed to do crowd control. That's what the riot teams were doing. You spoke with the former secret service agent who objected to how the secret service was used. Back on Monday June I. What was his objection? Yeah well, so on Monday there was you know what is now been a widely condemned move to push back this crowd of largely peaceful demonstrators outside of the White House. These people had been been gathering there for days on Monday. The decision was made that apparently they were going to extend the perimeter, but by the time they. moved to do that. The crowd had already gathered, so the police sort of moved in on the crowd. They forcibly pushed them back with horses using gas using pepper balls. And one former secret service agent told us that itself is just kind of unusual, particularly for the secret service officers kind of established a line. They don't have a moving line. They keep a line there and with protesters, not pushing on that. It was unusual to see law enforcement kind of be the aggressor in this instance. Your paper, The Washington Post reported in your report. Had that it was William Bar, who gave the order to push back the protesters outside the White House and That when bar came to the scene on Monday June first. He said he was surprised to see that. The perimeter hadn't been pushed back around the White House and Lafayette Square and bar. Said get it done. He has contradicted that. What's the bar version of who gave the order and what what Bar said? Well to be honest with you. It's still a little murky and I would sort of dispute that he's contradicted. His telling is just a little more complicated. Although we told this to. So by his telling early on Monday, the decision is made he makes the decision to extend the perimeter northward from the White House by one block and at two PM. He communicates that directive to the various law enforcement agencies. and. Then it's about four hours later that he's spotted on the scene, talking to officials there on the ground and we reported and other folks reported that at that moment he sort of shows up to survey the scene and is surprised to find that this isn't done, and he says something to the effect of get it done. The White House press secretary has given essentially that an identical version of that. On Friday Bartok, the Associated Press and he added one little wrinkle to that, which was sort of yes, all that was true up to the moment he got there, but by the time he got there. The operation was already underway. I think is how the Associated Press framed, and he didn't give the quote unquote tactical order to move the crowd I'm still trying to sort out what. What the Justice Department. What exactly that means because? They claim that they're not disputing what? The White House press secretary said, which is the? He told officers on the ground that the perimeter. It needs to be moved so I. Guess we're still trying to understand. Is He? Saying well look? It wasn't as if I was on a bullhorn saying gas them, you know fire the bullets. High Level Command is he saying that he was just expressing his frustration, but that the operation was already underway, so it's not technically accurate to say. He gave an order, or at least not technically accurate to say given order then instead, he had given that order four hours earlier. What I think is notable about those comment is he seems to be trying to distance himself from what had occurred. It seems like there's some recognition that what had occurred. Even though he has defended, he seems to be trying to do now. Distance himself a little bit from him. One way or another. He was seen on camera talking with law enforcement about twenty four minutes before law enforcement moved in on the protesters No Barr says that the protesters weren't cleared. For the purposes of trump's. Photo outside Saint John's Church. What have you learned about that? He has tried to disconnect the move on protesters from the photo op, and essentially he has said at two PM when I. When I formerly told law enforcement agencies. This needs to happen. I didn't know actually. He said he didn't know that trump plan to speak and it was after trump spoke that he went over to the church. We do know some of my White House. Colleagues have reporting from inside the white. House that this was kind of evolving planner that was only finalized very late in the day. So it is certainly plausible at two PM. He did not know officially that the president was going to go across the street the church after he spoke that said the timing of when protesters were. Were actually moved to win. He went across the church. It's very close. This isn't several hours later. This is within an hour later, we? He has disputed that there is a connection between the move on protesters and the going across the street to the church by his telling this was always the plan and the timing was just coincidental that there wasn't connection there but but the timing is quite interesting. Everyone was able to watch live on television. The crowd be moved the president. Speak, and then the president go right on over to the church across the now empty parking street. The Washington DC police. Had Not requested outside help. My understanding. What is the protocol for when a? Presidential Administration has the authority to call an outside forces to assist local police in the district. When you gotta remember. DC is not a state. It has many more federal police who operate here all the time and there are various memorandum of understanding about what they can and can't do. Usually they work very cooperatively together. This is an unusual incident. In in this incident, bar has defended what police federal police are doing. Even when it is upset by saying look, we have a right and duty to protect federal buildings, so we have to control the perimeter around the White House and the treasury around various federal monuments. That's our jurisdiction. You see that sometimes just every day in DC right like the Capitol police handle things that happen in the capital. Park police handle things that happen on various federal lands or federal roads and DC police control the rest though they typically operate collaboratively. With the recent unrest here, the trump administration contemplated trying to federalize the DC police. They ultimately didn't do that, but there has been as you know a lot of tension. In this relationship that normally works quite cooperative well. What would have meant to federalize the DC police? My guess it would have meant that the federal government would be giving command, said those guys that they no longer would be taking orders from the mayor and the police chief. What happened to him, but that the federal government bar you know in this instance because he had been given command of every federal law, enforcement agency would be. Able to deploy them in various places across the city. Will receive a lot of friction between the mayor of Washington DC and the trump administration. Have you seen anything like that before? Certainly, not to this scale I. Mean You know painting the street? with black lives matter right outside the White House projecting black lives matter you know on a building near the White House and then sort of tweeting about it being trump's night light. I mean this is a very fraught relationship I think. City generally has tried to agitate to expand its its right to home. Rule The you know. The city leaders have consistently in all the years I've lived here wanted to become a state, but this is a moment of tension like like I have not seen before. So on on Sunday the trump administration gave orders to pull out. The State National Guard from DC within forty eight to seventy two hours What did they actually do? Last a week ago. With the National Guard were here helping? Do crowd control. You know you saw them in front of the White House. You saw them out on the street. The the National Guard had been deployed to help you know quell the unrest, and not just the National Guard here in DC national guardsmen from other states had been called in to to quell the unrest. The trump administration had also brought in some active duty military sort of standby capacity thinking they might be needed to be deployed on the streets so that they have been out there operating. Doing crowd control with these protests. When trump said that he was going to withdraw the National Guard. He offered as a reason. That far fewer protesters. Had shown up than anticipated. On Saturday night. I don't know exactly what that means since we have no idea what trump anticipated. So, I haven't been on the ground are are very talented. Local staff has been handling that by. They're telling the crowds Numbered still in the in the many thousands they have been much more peaceful. You haven't seen in recent days. The fire setting that you saw I guess it was. More than a week ago now in Lafayette Park but their size has not diminished at all I think notably. You've even seen people out there when we've seen thunderstorms passed through the area albeit less when that occurs, but it's not as if the protests have kind of died away. I think it's certainly fair to say. Some of the violent unrest has gone down, but but Peru the account of our many reporters who are on the scene of these things. The size has not diminished. What are some of the things that? Trump or William bar have said in defense of the actions against protesters. Things that they've said that are not accurate. Will particularly referring to this Monday pushback. The controversial pushback of protesters outside of Lafayette Square bar has claimed that no tear gas was used. Our reporters and demonstrators were hit with a gas that induced pretty severe, coughing and tearing of the eyes. So that does not seem to be true. Bar has claimed things were thrown in his direction. There is a video that shows him on the scene, and you don't see anything visible of that though I can say that our reporters at times saw water bottles thrown. So that may be rings as half. True Bar has also made this very unusual can claim that pepper spray is not at all a chemical, even though it is marketed that way to kind of defend polices use of pepper Paul's to. To clear the demonstrators, and just all he this seems to be an effort to characterize this crowd on Monday as not peaceful. When in fact video shows they were. You know certainly there was a lot of yelling right, but when the police moved in on them, you saw line of people standing with their hands off. It was the police that move towards them, not the other way around and by bars, telling you know bars, telling just allies what happened? Let me reintroduce you if you're just joining us, my guest is this Petoskey? He covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is fresh air support for NPR and the following message come from duck duck ago. Do you want the same Internet but more privacy? Duck duck go can help. They helped millions of people like you get privacy online without any tradeoffs with one download you can search and browse privately. Avoiding trackers duck duck go privacy simplified. Let's get back to my interview with Matt's. Petoskey he covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post and has been writing about the departments role in the trump administration's use of force against protesters in Washington DC last week. Do you think the trump administration has set any precedents. Regarding the use of force. Presidents that might be used in the future. Boy That's a really interesting question. I mean I think anytime you see a response to arrest and particularly one. That has this dramatic. There are lessons that are learned from. Both positive and negative rights, so in some respect we might look back at this in ten years and decide some of the things that were done were a really bad idea and shouldn't be done again. I mean when I look at all the intense blowback. What happened in Lafayette Square? You think boy you know. Future administrations likely will learn from that and decide not to. To do that, but by the same token, they sort of drawn a line to say you know this is okay. They have reinforced the idea that you can contemplate using the American military to enforce domestic laws are precedence that certainly would would play a role in the future the same way when we saw the American military called in related to the Rodney King Riots That's a precedent that the trump administration looked to in this instance so in the future I certainly think you'll see people looking back on what happened here you know with the massive deployment of every federal law enforcement agency for example and say hey. Maybe that's an idea we can contemplate again. You know what I've been wondering. Is the trump administration and I know you can't really answer this. Maybe you've. Heard talk is the trump. Administration worried that the next big demonstrations will be against them. We'll be against the trump administration or president trump in particular. And I'm wondering if they're concerned about that and if they're thinking about, how do they protect? themselves. The White House if that if that happens. Yeah I think I can answer that I mean after you saw what happened in Lafayette Square, the demonstration releasing grow in size, one and two. It also seemed to really center on the White House and as a consequence the white. House really built up this near fortress around the White House, so it does feel to me. Now have not been on the streets are are very talented. Local folks have been on the streets, but it did feel to me optically like the demonstrations at least here, in DC, a part of. Of them became about President Trump, and the response of course, the main motive still police violence. What happened to George Floyd here in DC? It did feel like some of the demonstration became about President trump and while I don't know that this speaks exactly to your question. There was some internal hand-wringing about what happened outside Lafayette Square with that now infamous photo op I think some advisers internally have expressed to our reporters into other White House reporters. They now realize that was a really bad idea. That could hurt them politically. I want to quote something in an article that you co wrote in The Washington Post about how the White House was transformed into a veritable fortress, the physical manifestation of trump's vision of law and order domination over the millions of Americans who've taken to the streets to protest racial injustice the White House is so heavily fortified that it resembles the monarchical palaces or authoritarian compounds of teams in far away lands. Do you know if that's the image that trump wants to give. Certainly he wants to give this law and order image right. If you think back to his inauguration, he gives this very dark speech where he uses the phrase. american-carnage talks about backing law enforcement that very gay. The White House posts online these kind of pillars of his administration, and one is specifically about not coddling, the looter and the rioter, so that image of strength is certainly one that he wants you know does he'd like being compared to a monarch? I don't know that I know the answer to that, but he certainly has leaned into the idea. Here's the law and order president cracking down on the violence. He apparently sees that as a winning political strategy. William Bar said that many protesters have been peaceful and he blamed extremist agitators for exploiting the situation. Any said the agitators have a variety of different political persuasions, but the only group he actually named whereas Antifa, which is an antifascist group is associated with the very far left as opposed to the very far right. But there's been a lot of. Talk that some of the people responsible for x violence were actually from far right groups. Who would like to? See just chaos. And some of them would even like to see a civil war in America. Some of these far right groups are. White supremacist groups so I'm wondering What you've been hearing. About investigations into. Who was responsible? For creating some of the chaos and violence that we have seen. They've charged now. Federally dozens of people with various violent acts connected to the protests. Sometimes, it's because the people possess or try to distribute Molotov cocktails other times. It's because they cross state lines to riot and I have to say of the cases that I've looked at. The vast majority seemed to be these sort of one off I don't even know what you would call them. They're not any part of any organized group. They just seem to be personally intent on inciting mayhem for mayhem. Sake that seems to be the majority of them. They have charged at least three people who work connected to this far right group called a boo. Boo Movement, the Attorney General though. Even though he is conceited, look, there are a lot of different ideologies driving the violent element at these protests. The only thing he names is in TEPA. and. That's the thing that the president has seized on right but ANTIGA. It's not even quite right to say it is a group. If you're thinking of a group in terms of one with a national sort of structure, it's more an ideology, just a far left ideology. There are some in Thika groups in various cities though there are quite small. The Justice Department has said that some of the people that they're questioning in connection with violence identify as Antiga, but it's hard to even know what that means I see people post on Facebook, friends of mine or acquaintances of mine. I should say you know post like a picture of World War Two and say look the original mtpa because the phrase sort of stands for anti fascist. So you know what critics say, the administration is doing. Doing here is trying to blame this nebulous left leaning forced to suggest that that's really behind these protests at violence at these protests, and that's just not true. I mean one. These protests are driven by very real concern about police violence against black people, and to while it is true that there is some level of outside agitators and violence that can at times infiltrate these things it's not like this is just coming from the left. I guess is mad sabotage. He covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is fresh air. This week on, it's been minute. Talk out the news with my aunt betty. I'm more concerned about the black men that I love that anything were because. I JUST WANNA. Get that call also parenting in the age of black lives, matter and the history of police reform. Listen and subscribe. It's been a minute from. NPR. Let's get back to my interview. With Matt said Petoskey. He covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post. We're talking about Attorney General William Baras role in the trump administration's response to the protests. The trump administration considered using the insurrection act. What is it and how has it been used in the past? The Insurrection Act. Is this law that essentially gives the president the authority to deploy active duty military to enforce domestic laws. I think most people have this concept in their head that the American military can't be used to enforce domestic laws, and that's generally true. There's another law called the posse. COMITATUS act that prevents them from doing that, but the insurrection spells out some exceptions, and it has been used in the past. Past at moments of unrest like this, so it's been it was used during the civil rights movement. Most recently, it was used when William Bar was last attorney general in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, two to suppress some unrest in Los Angeles, related to the beating of Rodney, King so it's this law that would let the president deploy the American military to the streets if he wanted to do that. but he didn't use the act. Do you know why he considered it and didn't use it? Ultimately he didn't use it. by bill bars, telling by the secretary of defense's telling. They consider this a sort of last resort extreme measure, I think the Secretary of Defense has come out and publicly said he opposed invoking this act, and the reason is you know we were in a moment? Where of great tension between police, the military and the American citizenry when? Threatened to deploy the military to the streets of the country. There was intense blowback. People saying that the military was actually being weaponized against its own citizens. You only take this step in extreme. Cases ultimately president trump chose not to hear. The troops were sort of ready to go. They were here on on standby, but In the end, some of the violence decreased. And the president chose not to do it. Bar said and award ceremony for policing. In December! That communities have to start showing more than they do. The respect and support that law enforcement deserves, and if communities don't give that support and respect, they may find themselves without the police protection they need. How was that interpreted? This was sort of a remarkable statement that he made, and it seemed to be suggesting like look you better back police war. The police won't be there to protect you, and it's just a remarkable assertion. Right like the threat that police protection will be pulled if they're not adequately respected so this attorney general and his predecessor. Jeff sessions have taken this tack of the Justice. Department needs to quote him back the blue. We shouldn't be involved in forcing them to reform or investigating. They're second guessing them. We need to support them because we feel. They aren't being supported by residents, and this was sort of a dramatic example of that of bar. Saying I don't think police are being appropriately respected, and if this continues, look maybe won't be there for you. What has. The Justice Department done or decided not to do. To investigate police departments where they have been accused of systematic racism. While the Justice Department in the trump administration has abandoned a number of sort of systemic reform efforts that we saw in the Obama Administration. The most notable of those is these pattern or practice investigation, so what? Is the Justice Department? Civil Rights Division would go in and broadly examined a police department, not just an individual incident, but all of the policies and practices at a police department that might be discriminatory, and then what what they would do is present of typically scathing report of their findings to that department, and they would get into a court. Enforceable what's called a consent decree where the department would agree to reforms and agree in a court would make sure that they carried them out. The trump administration has just not done that I think they've done one pattern or practice investigation all of the administration. The Obama Administration did twenty five just of local law enforcement agencies. They've also had this other thing called the cops office, which had sort of a more voluntary process called collaborative. Collaborative reform where they wouldn't have a court, get involved, but the Justice Department would work with police departments to create some plan to reform the trump administration says we're not GONNA do that. The COPS office can still give grants, and that sort of thing, but it's not going to help you know with these kind of systemic reforms that civil liberties advocates and others have called for the trump administration has just taken a completely different tack. Well you know I in two thousand fourteen after Michael. Brown was killed. In the hands of Police Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the Justice Department investigate. Not just Michael Brown's killing in Ferguson but the entire Ferguson. Police Department. What was the outcome? Did it amount to substantive change? Well, it did produce a very long scathing report and the city. Of Tense Negotiation ultimately signed a court enforceable agreement to force reforms, and you saw that not just in Ferguson but in lots of cities across the country in Baltimore for example I think down in New Orleans. The record of these things I have to say though is somewhat mixed, so the Washington Post back in two thousand fifteen studied a lot of these agreements, and it is true that they generally forced policy changes. They forced equipment upgrades that kind of thing, but if you measured them just on use of force, like did polices use of force? Get reduced the. The record, there was a lot more mixed, so civil liberties advocates I think would concede these things aren't a silver bullet. They don't magically solve all the problems overnight I. Don't think they've solved all the Ferguson. Problems or all of Baltimore's problems but they're tool that helps for some reform, and there are tool that the administration now just isn't use it. So Barr did Organiz on the president's orders, a new national commission to study issues in law enforcement such as training and data collection, but that's been controversial. How come? Yeah, so this is the thing that he has pointed to as his police reform effort, but but civil liberties advocates right when that thing was convened pointed out. This is a law enforcement people. You know a lot of times when you think of a commission, you think of it having kind of variety of people from diverse backgrounds with various perspectives, you might see some police chief. Some defense attorneys, some civil liberties advocates. Maybe some community activists types. This was all police officials They did have a meeting about civil liberties concerns although I think it was Gosh I. I don't WanNa. I don't WanNA speak, but it was not among the first four meetings that they had civil liberties. Advocates have actually sued over this group saying that it's not representative as it as it needs to be so you know the Justice Department would say well look. We are studying issues in policing in this commission will certainly look at some of the concerns that people have now, but civil as advocates feel like no, this is just sort of lip service, and it's only police officials. who were discussing this? You can't just have their perspective. You need some of ours. Have investigations been proposed into the trump administration's handling of protesters last week. Oh, absolutely I think lawmakers are already investigating so to speak requesting information on what happened outside of Lafayette Square so so definitely, there is an intense. Desire among lawmakers to know what happened to you know, conduct their oversight role. If. You're just joining us. My guest is Matt, sabotage. He covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post. We'll talk more after a break. This is fresh air. As protests sweep the nation, the subject of policing is once again being hotly debated this week on through line, how police forces developed in the north and the south in the nineteenth century, and expanded their power in the twentieth century through lot from NPR the podcast where we go back in time to understand the present support for NPR comes from whyy presenting the podcast eleanor. Eleanor amplified an adventure series. Kids love here. REPORTER ELEANOR ATWOOD CRAFTY VILLAINS and solve mysteries as she travels the globe to get the big story available where you get podcasts or at whyy dot org. Let's get back to my interview with Matt's Petoskey. He covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post. We're talking about the trump administration's use of force against protesters last week. So much of Americans attention. Has Been focused on the pandemic. And on the protests. against. George fluids killing. what else has attorney general William Bar been up to? a lot of people are not paying attention to the rest of the news right now because the pandemic. And, the protests are so so consuming I mean that's where so many of us have our attention focused. Yeah well and I. Think the Attorney General Bar has his attention largely focused on those issues to you know. His staff has told us in recent days that he's taken an extremely hands on role in managing the police response to these protests, but he's also still involved in some efforts involving cases of interest to president. Trump's oh. You know as all has been going on. This is really before a lot of the scene, but during the pandemic, he was personally involved in the Justice Department's move to abandon the prosecution of former National Security, advisor Mike Flynn who, in two thousand. Thousand Seventeen pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his interactions with the Russian diplomats, but then changed defense teams went on the attack against his case, and won a sympathetic ear inn attorney general bar. I would say that did get a lot of attention even amid all the news and it's been quite controversial. You know I think critics see this as the attorney general just helping the friend of the president. It's pretty unusual to have someone plead guilty. Admit Multiple Times in court. They did wrong and then the Justice Department to say actually. We can't pursue that case anymore. What are some of the other issues in which bar has been accused of siding with the president as opposed to? CY siding with Standard legal procedures and legal judgments. Well the Flynn case that I just mentioned is a big one. If you go back to the sentencing Roger, stone this is another longtime associate of president trump who was convicted at a trial of lying to Congress in connection with its investigation of Russian interference in the election bill bar personally intervened in that case to reduce the sentencing recommendation that career prosecutors wanted to give. That was a pretty unusual move career prosecutors wanted to recommend a sentence within these things called the federal. Federal sentencing guidelines. That's almost always what the Justice Department does. Bill Bar came over top and said no this instance. We don't WanNa do that after they had already made a recommendation, so that would be one example House Democrats would say he has taken this posture towards them of complete stonewalling, which is unusual for the justice, department typically when House Democrats want records or information, they kind of work through this. Negotiation with the Justice Department to get materials they want House Democrats say Bill Bar has just not wanted to engage in that process. He just won't turn over materials, and they see that as protecting president trump at the expense of warm, so there are a lot of examples that bars critics point to helping the president's friend protecting the president from transparency now expanding. Showing the president's Great Authority to use the National Guard military and law enforcement to respond to unrest in the district. You've been covering how the trump administration has used law enforcement to deal with the protesters in in Washington. Before covering the Justice Department, you covered. Prince George's county for The Washington. Post and you covered policing. Look local policing. What are some of the things you learn covering local policing? That are helping you in covering the protests now and the trump administration's response to the protests. Question I've been actually thinking a lot about my time in Prince. George's county and even covering police, shootings and I think when I covered that videos sort of weren't quite as prolific as they are now and I think back to some of the police shootings I cover where witnesses or the family members of someone shot would say one thing and police would say another thing, and there just wasn't quite quite the level of unrest, and and I sort of reflected in wondered. What happened if what would have happened if there were? were videos of all these incidents that I reported on that could've you know put to rest any dispute and was the account I was often given from police. Was that accurate? Because I think you've seen here? as unrest has swept the country, you've seen example after example of police, saying one thing and a video showing another thing I've also thought a lot about that. In the context of some of these deformed or abolish the police efforts I think some of those might be a little bit of a misnomer that. That that that language though it seems to suggest that means we won't have police. The what the people using that language has no. No, no, it would just change. Police functions. Police wouldn't be involved in things other than basic law enforcement, they shouldn't be involved in response to mental health crises, and that sort of thing, and I have to say I remember covering police and police officers complaining to me, look, we have to respond to everything, and we always get people at their worst moment, so we get in the middle. Middle of domestic disputes we get in the middle of mentally ill. People who don't have a home and are on the are on the street, and we have to handle that you know so I think it's interesting to see this now. Become a national conversation about you know our police being asked to do too much. Are we giving police too much responsibility and authority and I think back to some of the conversations. I had with police then and think, would you? Would you really oppose if we gave some of? The away, but also know. gave. You less responsibility. I don't know the answer to that. That's Metavsky. Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you for having me. Matt's Sabotage Ski covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post Tomorrow. On fresh air, we'll talk about how disproportionate use of force can turn a peaceful protests violent, and how before George Floyd's death Minneapolis failed to remove bad officers. My guest will be Jemayel's Lardy who reports on the justice system for the Marshall Project and was part of a team at the Guardian. That tracked police violence in America I hope you'll join us. Fresh Air's. Producer is Danny Miller. Our Technical Director and engineer is Audrey Bentham our interviews and reviews produced an edited by any Salad Phyllis Myers Sam brigger Lauren Crandall. To recent madden, they challenor Seth Kelly Andro Wolfram. or associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy Nesper. Roberta. shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry, gross

HR 3: We NEED CHANGE!

Afternoons with Marcellus & Kelvin

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HR 3: We NEED CHANGE!

"Sadat Odell Z. With you here on seven ten Espn Richard Jefferson NBA champion, you can catch them on the jump in our NBA coverage here on ESPN him. An thanks for hanging out with US and taking the time to talk to us for a little bit. I JUST WANNA share a little bit of of news here. For those of you who are fans of my favorite sport. May Only Asaka the US Open champion has just posted on her social media account that she's not going to play in her semi-final match tomorrow Joining in with the protests that have been happening in all the other sports. So even in the world of individuals Portland tennis your soccer who's Japanese nation said as a black woman she feels they're more important matters a hand that need more media attention than playing tennis. That's how powerful this moment has been ripping through the country right now. Enjoyed I I appreciate you having me on and and and send me a tax. But this is like when people like look at this this started you know with the Detroit Lions, canceling a practice to the Milwaukee. Bucks canceling a playoff game to the entire NBA players sitting down and then to baseball players in the Milwaukee brewers saying they're not playing. Now you have individual tennis players like it like the the protests that we saw with the George Floyd killing. That's that. The yet people in France you had. People in Italy all across this world protesting for equality, not just in our country but in bear country also. And so you know this is a huge moment and you know, and it's like when you just when you think that an act or a moment can't get bigger. Sports or coming back and they continue to see the same type of injustices and then the then they were like, oh, we're going to sit down. We don't have to risk our lives. We don't have to separate ourselves from our family for weeks and months for your entertainment if you're still not going to respect the people that are begging for you to respect you know communities and individuals in the streets. Richard Jefferson joining us here on Sodano and L Z. So I heard, you say that you expect them to play the Milwaukee Bucks have reached out the reached out directly to. Politicians the state attorney. The. Attorney General. Do you believe what you believe is satisfactory enough. As far as a result here to get them back to playing because if you do believe, they're gonNA get back to playing what is the result that that people need to see that they need to see the change you need to see that would make you feel good about doing that. Richard what well I would say is this it's so often the handling of these issues. And so often the handling others issues the cop that that that that did that shot him seven times in his back. But they are not releasing the name. They're not giving any details and it's like. Well, wait a second. You don't want for there to be public jury. Meanwhile, this individual was the judge jury executioner. So it's like he's going to do that. But now you're not giving out any information of who it is. You're not announcing a and again I don't know any more information about what was in the car. So it's like you're not announcing any charges you're not announcing you're not announcing anything. So you're you're putting people in a position to now have to be more and more frustrated. It's like, yeah, we saw this on tape it doesn't take it doesn't take three days to do an investigation. Not Not when when this is an all time high and so again it's Getting to the point arresting the cops I shop Brianna Taylor. These are the things that people are these. This is not that's not just a slogan that people are saying that something that people truly truly want it's not a me. And so far, I. Think these guys are really WanNa come back and play they WANNA see some action they wanna see they wanna see that you know the individuals that might go out there and and incite things and makes situations worse should be arrested. Those those are the things that I think they want and even when the win the police commissioner gets on TV and says an individual went down there to protect. It's like no no, there's no excuses. Don't give an explanation for what he was doing. There was an individual that came down there that was armed. And a situation happened and which led to the murder of two people in a shooting. Another one that person has been apprehended and that person is in police custody. But when the police governor gets up there and start giving excuses and they're saying, well, he an individual across state lines came down with with the intention to help. It's like we don't care what the explanation. By doing that, you're putting that in a position you by doing that and saying that you're immediately like harboring some sort of like feeling as a like. Hey, his he had good intention. And it's like. We all know it in the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Of Richard, I'm not asking you to declare any political affiliation. In fact, I don't want to declare any political affiliation but Doc rivers certainly. Went deeper in his expression of frustration. When he talked about what he was winning seeing with the Republican National Convention President Donald Trump's policies. Do you believe that this is something that the NBA and other Sports Leagues NBA particular can can navigate without doing with doc did or is there no rating to? Well at the end of the day, we understand that everyone in this country, it is true. Everyone's allowed to have their own opinion I'm not a big fan of the canceled culture unless it deserves to be cancelled. A, big big fan of it but I am a fan of holding people accountable and. You know. You can have individuals that own own sports teams that might be Republicans. I. Had a trainer who was a very, very dear friend of mine who was a hardcore trump supporter Republican and You can have these conversations with individuals, but dot was right doc said it. He goes he goes look you watch the and that's what it is. They want to do this. They want to do that and it happens on the democratic side. Also, it happens on both sides and that's bad that you were trying to get people to believe in you based on fear. Based on scaring people. And that is sad and I sent it on I hate today my father who recently passed away. He was in the military. and. He had a military funeral he's getting buried at the military cemetery. And you watch the flag that's draping his coffin and you watch these two soldiers folded perfectly and handed to my mother and have them say thank you for your service. When DOC says it? Why do we love country that doesn't love US BACK Though those words hit hard. When I can see my father being buried in the military funeral and he would support Colin. Kaepernick. But the same thing was used against Colin. Kaepernick saying you don't support the troops or in individual drew brees can say that I was taught by my grandfather's to stand for the flag and that's not the knock drew. brees is to say that drew has to understand that yes, that is your grandfather's experience and you should feel that way. But ultimately, you should also respect the rights for other people to feel a different way and that was lost in his message so that the the Doc rivers statement, it hit home you know especially hard for me because I just witnessed you know. Such a respectable military funeral and how much my father who was vet like? Respected the military but also how he respected individuals in what he stood for. Richard Jefferson with his ear again, NBA champion seventeen year vet you won that championship with Lebron James Lebron James is always a target in these situations because of how outspoken Teammate you're his friend for those that may not truly understand how committed he is to these causes. How would you best describe? How he feels about now, not just necessarily the current state of affairs but just about social justice in general and the right to vote and all these different aspects of social activism that he's taken on. Why I think you know. You just don't know what's real and what's not and I think for Lebron and so many athletes in why he has. Exceeded all expectations not as a basketball player just as a human being like there's always that stuff about him. That's like Yo. This guy was on the cover at sixteen being called the Chosen One and he has exceeded those expectations. Well, that's just what that's just talking about basketball. Think about all the things that he has done. All of the industry that he has set up how much of an activist he is how supportive he is of the women's game. Right. It's like we talk about him exceeding expectations of the basketball player right and that's being called the Chosen One and so you know in in these moments, you know when he's out there trying to get people the right to vote meanwhile during a pandemic during a pandemic, they are trying to take away mail services. And and and it just becomes this this cluster of WHO's right and what to do. You know it just seems you know. That right now, we need those types of leaders but more importantly, what we need is we need individuals to get out if you're upset about this, you gotta get out and vote you have to you have to pay more attention to these things and I think that's what's really going on for so much people like I don't discuss politics I, don't really pay attention to politics I, know this person might give me a tax break or this thing but now they're so much more at stake. Everyone has to pay attention to politics not just from a financial standpoint, but also from an education standpoint from a diversity standpoint from a legislation standpoint still like you have to pay attention to this, because these issues are becoming more and more and more intense, and if you're not informed, you are also not contribute the possible solution to make things better. Richard I am currently in Scottsdale I know that you played Basketball Arizona. The city has has authorized about four five. Payouts you know tied to please infractions. If, what would you like to see happen in terms of criminal justice reform I if you had a silver bullet that can make the change right away. Band there did that's the thing it there's still many. You know you know there's so many things you know the individuals that are still in jail for weed that is now legal in. So many states like that right there is a level of poxy and absurd while they did break you know break a crime while it was a crime now that it is legal, you know those are things right there you know but also I I would say. You know. I think I think just. Police training I really do I really and truly believe that. that. We need to. Retrain and and and and. Our police. Officers. They're asked to do so much even here where I live in Hermosa Beach, they're fighting to save the police because they don't have enough funds and they can make more working in other places and then they just get too stressed out. So it's almost like the La County sheriff's department will come down here and start policing Hermosa beach just because it's just that they haven't figured out a way to maintain a consistent police force. And it's because anytime you see a homeless person, you call the police anytime. There's a cat stuck in a tree you call the police and anytime there's somebody there's a domestic violence you call like they're asked to do so many things that people might not necessarily have the training to do and you combine that with them being emotional human beings just like the rest of it rest of us and I just really think that you know I think police reform is true. I. Don't I don't think that we need to you know get rid of the police that no, I. Don't I don't think that that's the case. I think you know the police definitely serve a purpose but I think that there are some things that are in place whether it's mentally are emotionally or are are systematic lead that are allowing individuals to do things and get away with it, and that's just an we're all old enough to remember the Rodney King beating. That was the first time it was ever caught on camera. And the police officers all got off. We like this has been going on lake pretty much my entire life that I've been able to see. And and you know the last thing that the doc says it's like how many? How many white individuals have to have a conversation with their parents are with their kids about how to be careful around police to not get shot if you pulled over. And anybody that thinks that we're being dramatic you don't know enough black people. You don't know enough black people. If you think we're being dramatic because there is not one black family there's not one black father or mother that hasn't had that conversation two minute their kids are able to drive or leave the home at thirteen fourteen fifteen leave at home. And not have that conversation with them that conversation has had. In that that just again shows the state you know a of where we are right now. Richard we just had the conversation with by twenty three year old son again at the dinner table last night. To your point richer. Again. And I have two boys that are three and five, and you know again, people talk about Tamir Rice. was playing with a toy pellet gun in a park and was shot and killed. Meanwhile, this individual seventeen you know walking through police barricades during the protests and at no point time they disarm them do that. No Point Times they. He has license for that weapon at no point time. Do they see if you have any identification on him? There is nothing. There's nothing there to that that I'm not talking about harassment I'm talking about saying there's a man walking around here with a rifle, but he's viewed as an ally. And a fifteen year old kid playing with a pellet gun and apart. Is viewed as an enemy. That's just the reality and the truth of it. There is no, there's so black of my there's this that's viewed as an enemy. This guy in the middle of this chaos at seventeen years old walking around with an ar fifteen that just murdered multiple people is viewed as an ally. and. That's something that needs to be changed. Richard, Jefferson NBA, champion, of course analysts here at ESPN and friend of the program he joins us here on. ESPN thank you brother appreciate the time as always. Hey, I appreciate you guys keep doing the good work and if you ever want me on, just let me know we'll do Minh. Thank you. There is Richard Jefferson. L Z Ramona Shelbert has some breaking news and we will talk to her in two minutes and thirty seconds about that breaking news. We're back in a moment. Sadan l with you here on seven ten ESPN Ramona Shelburne SPN NBA insider. We know his mom Momo's got some news she's been. Busting out breaking news here we brought her on and thank you for hanging out. So you have a story, this all started with the Milwaukee Bucks at one o'clock today being the initial team to boycott. What do we know about the Milwaukee Bucks were in their locker room for several hours and in communication with government officials in Wisconsin? What do we know about those conversations? So I just talked to the Lieutenant Governor of Wisconsin he's a he's a gentleman by the name of Mandela. Barnes and our first our first. Line was kind of funny. He goes yeah I think they were trying to get the governor on the phone but. I was second choice. It was a little urgent. I was available. And it was it was. So sudden is like this was twenty minutes before the game i. don't think anyone knew this was happening I think. The Orlando Magic went onto the court. They were expecting the bucks to come out and they they just kept talking in their locker room and so the Lazarie Family Mark Lazarie Alex Lazarie, who owned the bucks have incredible political connections in the state of Wisconsin and really all over the country. They were you know? Some of the people who hosted the democratic. National. Convention Virtual Convention that just happened last week. and. They essentially communicated with the team and said, okay, look if you know who do you guys want to talk to and they said, we WanNa talk to anybody who WanNa. Talk to state officials a like we want to make a change and so a call was scheduled with the Wisconsin Attorney General and Lieutenant Governor who His his joked that they were trying to get the governor but they but he the lieutenant governor was available on that the players essentially said to him. What can we do like the walkout that we're doing right now the strike and what we should call it a strike by the way it's not a boycott it's strike on. This is step one. They WanNa, know what they can do with this platform with this action that they're taking. Now to affect some real change and Mandela Barnes Lieutenant Governor said to them. Look you need to try to effect change at all levels of government and one thing very specifically pointed them to was a police reform bill that has been introduced. Legislation, that includes police reform bill that was introduced all the way back on June twentieth that that Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers has been trying to get the state legislature to vote on for two months and he called he recently this week called a special session of the state legislature, which is a Republican controlled state legislature. Just. Trying to get them to vote on that police reform bill. That in light of the Jacob Lake shooting, and this has been a Wisconsin state issue. This has been covered in the papers in Wisconsin. But the you know what? What? The Lieutenant Governor told the bucks players was this is what you can do. You can use your platform to shine a light on what's going on in Wisconsin and really what's going on in Wisconsin. One of the players specifically I heard Kyle. Korver asked Mandela. Barnes. What actually has been done in the last two months? What what has happened in our state in the last two months? Have you guys done to anything? And? You know he the Lieutenant Governor said there's been things municipal level of one of the biggest things if they they've tried to get. Over policing at in schools rectified but the the real police reform bill is been has been sitting on the desk of the state legislature in Wisconsin for two months and if you if you go back to George Hill statement that is that was in his statement, it's just they they need to and they keep saying we need to educate ourselves on things that we can do and push for both in the short and long term and I think that's what they're doing right now. You talked about the conversations with state legislators, the Lieutenant Governor List with one specific state right now. Right Since that. The League wants something broader. Do you have any idea or information about what are the broader steps they so? Yeah you know Michelle Roberts the head of the Players Union recently gave an interview where she talked about that that that was one of the. Things that. Those that that the players union was trying to push all around the country is just more police accountability measures and that type of legislation all over the country that that's something they're pushing for. But you know what's going on right now and it's amazing that this is all happening real time because I don't I don't know I I know what? It's like to watch this all unfold I. It's it's hard to describe what it's like reporting on. US because like you talked to somebody and you're tasting something down and like three seconds later, it's completely obsolete because stuff is really happening in real time. It's like they're taught like I was on the you know I was texting wnba players are you guys GonNa play and they were like I don't see how we can. But we're on the bus to the game right now I guess we're GONNA. Talk about it and figure it out you know. What's happening right now Z. is. The players who are in the bubble are in a room talking they're figuring out what they want to do next and usually when you protest. There's a set of goals and there's there's some actionable that you say we want to have happen and you know once we see that things are moving in that direction that that we're being her that action is being taken. Now we can either stop protesting we can. We can do something else. You know that that we feel like we've been heard and listened to the action has been taken. So I think. In this case, this seems to be happening almost in reverse like they protested, and then they went NASA state officials. Hey, what should we be asking for? Like. Mad Houses happened what can we do? Give us something we should try to shine a light on. Give us give us give us things that we can work on his NBA players with our big platform that we have. And I think that's what they're talking about right now. Is Better to continue playing games where you have a microphone in front of every day or is it better to go home and work on these things? Is it do we just need a pause? Do we need? Do. We need us go home. Do we need you know that's that's the conversation that's ongoing right now and I'll tell you what I've had Texan players who are not in the bubble who seems either been eliminated already or they never went and they're like is this just for the players in the bubble because I want to get in on this to? Like this is all happening in real time. And it's just really staggering to launch. I've never seen anything like it. Ramona Shelburne joining us here on Sodano and L Z. Ramona, obviously, one of the conversations is going to be about. The eventual resumption of play what needs to happen. For that to happen like what are the players want done in the immediacy of this to allow that to happen He's a continue on. You know I think that's I think that's what they gotTA. They're trying to figure out like this was just this wasn't a coordinated action today. This you know they are trying to come up with a plan right now this is what Chris Paul Andre Iguodala I've heard that doc rivers is is spoken to the or was planning to or or already has but the players are trying to come up with a plan of action so that these are demands can be met. These are things that they WANNA have action taken on the coming up with a plan right now. Does that cannot happen in one day. I don't know. Can that happen in two days I don't know I. I feel like tomorrow's Games are in doubt. I don't know how you can settle anything in one night. A I don't know if we're taking it to day pause I. Don't know flea are just ending the season. But I know they're they're literally talking about this right now like what what can we ask for? What can we do? What should we be doing and It's kind of like a civics lesson. You listen to what George Hill said in his statement we need to keep educating ourselves on things that we can do. We can't just keep saying this is wrong. We need to ask for specific things. What is Michelle Roberts role in all of this Well I mean I think it's You know she's coordinating with them but like what's what's interesting is that? This this this started. With the Raptors and the Celtics last night that discussion that back, really kind of escalated last night. Then it continued in the Bucks Locker Room this morning and you know every player was talking about it on text chains or and in meetings and stuff like that. But it the the decision to to strike today the decision not to play that game Milwaukee and Orlando that came from the Milwaukee Bucks Locker Room. That was not coordinated with Michelle Roberts that was not coordinated with Adam silver that was not with Chris Paul. They didn't vote. They didn't collectively bargain they did. So I mean. It's Kinda like usually usually in the NBA things are collectively bargain. You have your union leadership work on something and you do it like when you when you have a teacher's Union, when they strike, it's there. It's the unionist striking. They all talked about it. It's not like three teachers decided to walk out. But that's kind of what happened in the NBA Today. Ramona Shelburne, ESPN insider. Mama Mama with us here you are the best thanks for hanging out with us. I hope I cleared some of that up or confused you more. No. You can we're good. We're good. Thanks. Thank you. All right. L Z we've got some breaking news mookie Betts has spoken Dave Roberts is spoken Kenley Jansen and Clayton Kershaw are actually all speaking at the moment we'll have some of their commentary as to why the dodgers game was canceled today. I'm assuming you know we all know what the impetus was, but their reasoning behind and their thoughts on the day's events will have some of that in just a few moments. Stick around. We're back in less than two minutes. Sodano. Nosy with here on seven ten ESPN. Thanks to Ramona Shelburne for joining us there. Dave Roberts Clayton Kershaw Kenley Jansen are all speaking. And mookie betts are all speaking the moment. Here's some of the things that were just said Mookie Betts said no matter what I wasn't going to play tonight. Here's some more stuff from Clayton. Kershaw he said what is something tangible? We can do once Mukhi said he was not going to play that started the conversation. We made a collective group decision to not play tonight to let our voices be heard to stand up what we believe is right. Clayton said the decision not to play night was a collective one among the dodgers team. and. Again. L.. Z.. Not really a surprise here just based on who we're talking about here you know. Early in the summer, I did an interview with Clayton Kershaw Shirley before he posted his statement on Social Media Account. And we talked about what leads is transformation because I'm as many listeners knowing you know George Crane, Kershaw's not necessarily one who who likes to wade these particular waters. Now. He's been very active intend to philanthropy and he certainly has. Things that he cares about and that he pauses resources to be typically stay away from the microphone Timmy doesn't. Talk too much about these issues and so when he posted what he did on social media and he and I had a chance to talk. I was like, what changed right like. How did you go from not talking about anything at all like this to go on four hits team head on racial issues, and he simply says something that just made all the sense in which is we can't be filing anymore. White. People. Can't. Be Silent Anymore. And for someone who grew up. In Texas, and is always been sort of quiet on these controversial issues for him to be that bode I knew there was a different temperature. In that clubhouse. New the dodgers. Was Different. Because the mandate has been to face. The brilliant face for so long? Has Stepped out in an incredibly bowed fashion and said as they white person. I can't sit back and be silent on these issues. Any more and. I know discussions with other players as well as leaders in the organization that conversations in terms of racial reconciliation history Jackie Robinson Post Jackie Robinson. I've written a lot. I've spoken a lot to the dodgers. I'm not surprised at all George by this because I witness firsthand how George Floyd video as Lilly transform what is acceptable communication in the clubhouse and the subject matters that the organization as a whole is willing to approach. Yeah, man, it's You know, and there's some very powerful conversations going on right now. Across the world of sports whether it's Robert on spectrum sports a little while ago. Whether. It's the dodgers speaking right now and look there are a lot a lot of. People just taking a very. You know talking about this and discussing it as humans right and I think that's the thing. You know look and the DOJ just for transparency's sake is reporting that he had a knife in his car. And the way that I would and that he had warrants and that he had this and that and what I would say to that is this L Z, and you can tell me if I'm wrong or not. What I would simply say to that is having a warrant resisting arrest should not be a death sentence having a knife in your car shouldn't be a death sentence. If you watch that video and I have seen it from every angle now including the angle. From across the street, which you can see when he opens the door and comes around the car. They could easily just. Him One more time instead of grabbing him by the shoulder and the shirt with one hand and shooting him with the other and and if you can't really just see that and if you want to outline all the other stuff and not understand that those things shouldn't be death sentences, then there's not much I can do for you. Right? We're just going to have that. Clearly, we're going to see things differently. If someone can't see it as plainly as I can see. Well. Again this goes back to something that I wrote on CNN dot com not too long ago. Which is about When an incident like this happens what you've tend to find out. I. Is, anything, is going on with the victim. We don't know anything about the officer as of yet. We don't know if this person has any prior issues in terms of race but just in terms of protocol will know this as someone who's been suspended. We didn't know anything about them, but we know everything about this man who's been shot sometimes in the back. In fact, the Wisconsin torney general said that he couldn't even clarify if the officer did the shooting even knew there was a nice in the vehicle. In other words this is you know a retroactive sort of response to a very ugly situation. In addition to the fact that. Anyone, who watches the video. And is being honest with themselves. They are thinking Oh probably has a night in the car. The PRI- thinking what is that opposite doing? Which is why that offers administratively paid still administrative leave because there needs to be a proper investigation because something about this situation didn't set right with the authorities with the power to decide whether or not to play that individual whose name we still do not know who's record we do not know. Has Been placed on leave. Now, why am I bringing up the officers record? Well, I don't know because the man that shot Tamir rice was fired from his previous post he resigned technically, but he was getting into be fire for his previous position as an officer because Zach Department said, he was mature enough and qualified to be a police officer. And another department quickly hired him and he guns down a little bored with swing with a toy gun. Or if you think about Michael. Brown. A case that I covered very extensively went to the funerals spoke to the parents walk those streets was tear gassed in that situation the officer in question officer Darren Wilson left a department had been disbanded because he was racist. Not, making this up, George not making this up his previous department was the bandit because investigation. There was too much racism in it. Just bent. The whole thing he was quickly higher by by the Ferguson Police Department and then he guns down Michael Brown? So we don't know what's going on the officer in question of the Shooting Bobby Jacob Blake maybe there's nothing maybe there's something we don't know where we keep hearing all these leaks coming from the victim. In this situation, which is part for the course. For these stories and I, know that intimately because I've been covering these stories extensively for years. So it doesn't surprise me at all George that we have is information from the Department of Justice about the victim who was paralyzed. It doesn't because this is what they do. They take the victim and before the body is cold a start putting him or her on trial it's a playbook basically yes. Is a playbook well, and the whole part of it is that due process should be a part of this like you can have an arrest warrant. You can have charges that does not make you guilty in this country or at least not supposed to. You, know you're supposed to be judged by a jury of your peers in this particular case so. To your point. Were you certainly aren't supposed to be given the death sentence before even had a chance to even have a trial. which is what has been happening correct. Correct. Well. Look man I thought Dave Roberts. Put this league today when he said that again, this isn't a political issue. This is about you know just being humane and being. You know it's it's really that simple and and it was that simple during George Floyd and it doesn't change now. And But we are. So this is what makes me so sad is that people are so there. So looking to defend their corner, you know what I mean whatever that corner is. Right That they will use. And by the way both political parties are guilty of this. Okay. They're so willing to defend their corners that they will take. Any ounce of information. And try to twist himself into a pretzel to make it fit whatever narrative they WANNA fit and. Not to get too political on but it's why I believe the to system party is not ideal right? I believe we should have if in England, they can have five parties. Why can't we have five parties? You know what I mean like I think that there are a Lotta countries that have multiple parties and I think that. Would allow for more nuance. I think and. Maybe I'm wrong. Chelsea this is your scope more than it is mine but I just think that common sense would say there would be less friction because if you have five different ideologies or for whatever. It becomes easier to have people fit within a particular construct and find ways to potentially. Make. Amends with each other on certain things. I mean what you're saying isn't breaking news. which is saying is exactly what the founding fathers said. The founding fathers warned against a two party system. They said a two party system would do exactly what is doing to the nation right now Which is choosing to choose sides in order to get a victory as opposed to choosing A. person. On official on official rather that makes the most sense for what your constituents need right And we've falling away from that and we're talking from George Washington on. We've fallen away from that and we are where we are. But none of that really matters because this isn't a political issue. It doesn't matter. We don't know what the political affiliations are of any of the people involved in shooting in Kenosha. We can certainly we can make those assumptions, but we don't really know right and at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. People are dead. A father is paralyzed and officers on paid leave and we're on a hamster wheel. And the NBA the. Debbie. And Baseball and tennis and football have all decided over the last twenty four to thirty six hours to put a pause on this and say enough is enough we need to do something and we need to do something now and I couldn't be more proud to be part of the sports community as journalists as this is happening yeah I certainly echo those sentiments and particularly the NBA family. Which I'm a part of and you know it becomes. Look they've become leaders in some ways and yeah maybe you don't believe in what they believe in, but you can at least give them this. Even if you don't agree with some of the messages you have to at least give them credit for standing up for what they believe in, which is really what we're supposed to do around here. I just wish we would do it in a more civil way and not be so vitriolic about it and get into our corners and not allow for the exchange of ideas or even the acceptance that some people are never going to believe what you believe and I think that unfortunately that's where we are. You and I will exchange ideas with Scott Kaplan. As. He is going to be on the air through the evening tonight and he's going to join us in about two minutes Saddam Z. and Scott Caplan cap. Thank you for hanging out with us. Always look forward to talking to you, and now we get to talk today about some real stuff. We've talked a lot about silliness and nonsense and sports but today was very, very real right? So what's amazing to me, George and l.? Z is I've been sitting here listening to you guys for the last two hours like nonstop. and. Just to to hear you to is and your most natural reactions and L Z, you know so many things that I don't know. So when I listened to you and you namedrop people who I feel like now I have to research like I need to learn more about this story because l Z. Just mentioned it and I don't know it. And to hear you guys with your most people raw real reactions in real time was was just great radio and I enjoy listening to a but it is. It is interesting that we probably didn't expect to be here. Today we expected to be at this stage of the game you know getting ready for the Lakers to tip off. Yeah. That phrase a cabinet and I really appreciate your your comments for for Georgia. I'll that phrase ball is life. I, really live that. I basketball is such an important sport to me just as the pickup player just as the culture of basketball as someone who's know, cover the league. Manicure the coverage of the Li I really care about this sport a great deal. But I'm also equally passionate about our potential nation and so the the onus as you phrased it that you hear is really coming from sincere place I love the hell out of ball but also think that we as a nation can be so much better if we treat each other right if we just love them listen had compassionate empathy people want another. I. Can't say how many people got hit me up were shot the my best friend was gay. And White. I was like. Why would that shock? You do not listen to the show. I don't care about to rapping a care about what's on the inside. and. So when I'm talking about these issues is because I'm fighting for my son I'm fighting for. Jamal. Murray who the same age as my son, I'm fighting for Fighting for Zion Williamson and his future kids. Grandkids even have yet this ain't about me. This is about making sure that when I'm long gone that the talk that audience black parents and parents of color have to have that those talks can go away. That's what you hear. Brother. I'm just trying to fight for the future. Well I hear it. I do and I feel it at one point you said the cops should not play judge and jury you even said some of these people meaning some of the people who may have been killed by police officers is is the way I heard it. You said some of these people they may be guilty. We don't know yet you said but the COPS should not be the judge and jury there. There should be a judge there should be a jury. Facts of the case decisions don't or shouldn't be made in those split seconds. So when you said that it really resonated with me, I was like now that's that's really interesting to me because. What it says is there's a possibility that this person may not be an angel. Okay. Maybe not but does that mean he gets shot and killed right there and in this case, not shot and killed, but shot and paralyzed in front of his three children. It's It's hard to watch the videos. You know I've seen the you've probably seen the videos. Now from both sides, there's the one side where the police officers seems to be struggling. To try and make the arrest and then you know he gets up the gentlemen to walk around to his car and that's when they shoot him And it's just disturbing to watch it from all angles. It really is. Yeah. That is probably the best way to describe it just disturbing right on a very human level when you watch that. He could have been apprehended when he was coming around the car and instead they grabbed him by the shoulder shirt decided to shoot him instead. And Look. It's. It's this isn't over right like you know. I don't want to be naive here. and. No one in this audience should be treated that way. We should treat this like as we are adults and I'm sure that most of the people listening are adults and understand that this won't be the last time that this probably happens. Unfortunately, you know what I'm saying and I think that it's y that we need to take each and every instance like this and make it as important as possible and utilize the platform and the opportunity to have these discussions whether it's athletes utilizing and wielding their power like they're doing right now apparently still in the bubble having conversations with their group and my understanding is just so we know guys just to update you both. The players. Originally had the coaches in there and Doc rivers was one of the coaches who spoke as we all know yesterday he had that impassioned plea on national television and got very emotional but the players have now kicked the coaches out and they are still discussing and they've been there for over two hours discussing what their course of action is and I think to me that part of it is encouraging. That league is really a League of guys and men and young men who understand their place, not only in just sports and what it means but in society and I think that that's important and it really is if you think about and we're old enough to at least whether we have lived through it or not. But remember it and understand its significance we remember the ages of Muhammad Ali and. Jim Brown and Kareem. Abdul sitting there at a press conference talking about the civil rights, right like. If we didn't live through it. We've we certainly have seen the stories seen the footage listen to them in that footage and I feel like we're in a twenty first century version of that right now. The film that you just referenced. George. There's a documentary and I think it's called Jim Brown all American. And the film was so incredible because you find out especially if Jim Brown was before your time. which he was before mine and ours. What you find out about Jim Brown was he he was referred to as an putting this in quotes a revolutionary. He was someone that could impact change using his influence and what was so amazing about that period of time was Jim Brown and Kareem abdul-jabbar and all of the most visible and recognizable and influential African athletes of the period all came together because they were invited by Jim Brown and as I recall the story, they all came to Cleveland. You'll have to fact, check me on this. Is called the summit. Right, and so at the summit at the summit. All of these gentlemen were going to hear out Mohammed. Ali They were going to play judge and jury. L. Z to your to your phrase. They were going to listen to Muhammad Ali and then they were going to decide do we support Muhammad Ali? Who says he's not going to go fight for the United States and Vietnam or do we not support Mohammed Ali and they came out of the summit and they said, Hey, we've listened we've heard we support. We've got his back and and that was a defining moment if you will for that group of individuals and in particular from Muhammad Ali. Defining moment for young I'm GONNA say predominantly African American, young men to decide what they want to be. Do we want to be the guys who are just ballplayers? Do we WANNA just quote shut up and dribble or do we want to impact change in the world? And I know that it's become a very popular thing I've been listening to commentators all day and I've been watching ESPN for hours. You know I, applaud these guys, people say I applaud them and and I think many people do it takes a lot of guts. It takes a lot of courage to actually stand up to try and impact change. You know it the leverage is with the players right now if you want to impact change and you think that your owners, the rich white guys who have all the political power if you think that you need to get them to start really getting serious about it, you've got the leverage, we just won't play. And I I actually really wonder fells and I don't know what you guys think but. You know there's a part of me. You guys are talking about what's happening right now they're all meeting and talking I think there's probably a really strong case to be made in that room that hey, let's all get Outta here. Let's go home. I think we'll Scott there is there is that discussion going on and Chris Mannix just reported that among the people that that spoke passionately doc rivers I'm on Hill John Lucas. Who is there was an assistant coach for the Rockets Kyle Korver, Damian Lillard Carmelo Anthony and Lebron specifically as voices, and there is there is a sense at least initially from guys like Chris Hanes and even woge although that has changed they're not one hundred percent certain that there's a feeling that they could still utilize the platform. Get the change they seek and finish the season out that all those things could be done. I would certainly hope that that will be the decision that they come to. That, you can multitask in this space. You don't have to sacrifice one versus the other though as I said yesterday and I'll repeat it again I'm going to side with the players in his conversation wherever they decided to go in. I'm going to support but I just think it's amazing on the four year anniversary of pollen capital beginning his protest. Here we are today but I also want to make sure that we give out improper credit to the WNBA who really ahead of the NBA in their space, they will the t shirts I we the players who decided to not participate in their seasons to five criminal justice reform like Maya, more in addition to the fact that. Black women specifically of which WNBA is mostly made of had long been considered the backbone the Democratic Party and of the Civil Rights movement and they oftentimes get pushed aside and their contributions, the men and I think it's important that we recognize the WNBA and what they've been doing with the influence that they have as well as given shutouts to Serena Williams. Sonoma. Sokha who've used it platforms in sports to talk about what? It means to be a black woman in a predominately white sport. All of these contributions to the overall conversations are important and I wanNA make sure that as we go forward in our coverage of this, we don't become in hammered with superstar names and household names because it's not always the household names that moves the needle in terms of actual action more often than not it's grassroots leaders of people we've never heard of WHO. Stack refined so much just to get people to this particular place in the words of John. Lewis just to make some good trouble pro good trouble, and I'm really glad to see these players making good trouble as well. Hails e you like tonight coming up at seven thirty I've got James Blake who's GonNa join me. James Blake was at one time. One of the top tennis players on tour elevated the number four in the world. But as you'll probably recall in two thousand, fifteen stage of his life, he was already tennis announcer he works for ESPN now. He was standing in front of a hotel in New York City minding his own business talk while he was texting on his cell phone and he got attacked take into the ground. Only to be taken into a room and the cops to found out, they had the wrong guy. Well, James Really wasn't sure what to do about it. They kind of. Put a shirt back together and said, Hey, see you later wrong guy notice I didn't say sorry they didn't apologize O- wrong guy gotta go. And? James like this will never this will never see the light of day until surveillance video showed up. And then you got to see what happened to James and then he wound up suing the NYPD and so on and he's He's in ESPN tennis commentator but he's also an African American man who grew up in a predominantly white sport and when that happened to him in New York City, you know what? All of his white tennis colleagues said to him. They were like Damn Dude. Like that happens to you. He he he's like, yeah because guess what fell I'm actually black you see like to you. To you guys I'm I'm just one of the guys. In his players, right right. But to to some cops in this particular instance, they saw me as a black man and you know he's going GonNa, have a lot to say this evening I'm I'm quite sure. So James Blake will be with us at seven thirty and then you know our colleague here at seven ten Michael Thompson will be here and I you know I again, I planned on listening to game tonight. To Michael get his opinions as all of this is happening. So we've got a really great show coming up tonight one that we didn't expect to be on the air but on a night where you know this is one of the most historic nights in American sports. So I'm glad we're here and I look forward to hearing from what the people have to say tonight. Hey. Captain be sure your conversation with the we happen to be friends and I was in new. York when he when that happened to him carbon the US Open, they should ask him about his conversations with the police officers who often times volunteer to transport players to and FRO the facilities I've had numerous conversations with police officers in a year's A. Current US Open I'd be interesting to see what J. B. has had to say this conversation with police officers as well. These are cops that are transporting players players. Yeah. Players, cops volunteer either retired or the off time to transport a talent as well as players sometimes from their hotels in Manhattan out to the in King Center to play in this tournament. K. On writing it down right now as you can probably hear me typing away. there. It is Scott Gamblin you're coming up next brother have a great show. We're looking forward to it man be safe be healthy and we will talk to you right back at both of you gentlemen I, look forward to talking to you guys tomorrow. Man. All, right L Z A great show today, and looked there was no need for a rundown today as you would be going off the chest right and just doing it and thanks to Keyshawn Marc Spears Richard Jefferson Ramon, and of course, Scotty Cap. Thanks Greg Laura for their work as always L Z. Excellent job is always I'll talk to you tomorrow. Your. Guys. Thank you. Good night to you guys listening Scott Kaplan, is up next we love you stay safe. Stay healthy. We will talk to you tomorrow for Purgatory, at three fifty five.

NBA officer ESPN Doc rivers Wisconsin US COPS George Richard Jefferson Ramona Shelburne tennis George Floyd basketball Milwaukee Bucks Lebron James Lebron James dodgers Richard Michelle Roberts