20 Episode results for "Fbi"

Ask Kara Anything Webinar

UnF*ck Your Brain to Create Feminist Confidence

02:53 min | 10 months ago

Ask Kara Anything Webinar

"Hello my chickens if you have ever wished that you could ask me something whatever it is if it's a question about yourself coaching if it's something about me teaching that you don't understand a question about how to deal with something in your life if you want to know where in the house my cat likes to sleep S. two three four seven nine nine seven one seven eight four and when you get prompted by the auto response you just Text Back Aka and you will automatically be always super fun so we have a really easy way for you to register it's totally free here's what you do you can tax us at three four seven nine nine seven one seven eight four and you just send us your email address so you text your email address two three four seven as I can before the webinars over it's like speed dating but in asking me questions the questions are so good and it's so fascinating anything you want to know within reason this is your chance I am doing and ask a car anything webinar coming up soon it'll be obvious though and then you just text back the initials AKA so stands for asker anything or as known as we're on the run from the FBI just text backed Aka all one word just the initials for Asker Anything Aka and you will get these webinars are Super Fun.

FBI
Update - FBI concludes Bubba Wallace not target of hate crime at Talladega

The Final Lap

01:29 min | Last month

Update - FBI concludes Bubba Wallace not target of hate crime at Talladega

"So final lap got an update for YOU NASCAR says the news to the number forty three garage Talladega superspeedway was actually a pull down rope after the FBI issued a statement in part from their investigation quote, the F., B. I. Learned that garage number four where the news was found was assigned bubba Wallace last week. The investigation also revealed evidence including authentic video confirmed by NASCAR that the news found in garage number four was in that garage as early as October of two thousand nineteen, although the news is now known to have been in garage number four in thousand. Nobody could have known that Mr. Wallace would be assigned to garage number four last week. They decision not to pursue federal charges is proper after reviewing all available facts and all available federal laws. We offer our thanks to NASCAR MR Wallace. Everyone who cooperated in this investigation? Nascar then issued a statement of their own quote. The F. B. I. has completed its investigation at Talladega superspeedway and determined that bubble wallace was not the target of a hate crime the. The FBI report concludes and photographic evidence confirms that the garage pull rope fashioned like a noose had been positioned there since as early as last fall, this was obviously well before the forty-three team's arrival and garage assignment. We appreciate the FBI quick and thorough investigation and are thankful to learn that this was not an intentional racist act against Bubba. We remain steadfast in our commitment to providing a welcoming and inclusive environment for all who love racing and quote.

bubba Wallace NASCAR FBI Talladega NASCAR
Why the FBI Ignores White Supremacist Violence

At Liberty

35:47 min | 9 months ago

Why the FBI Ignores White Supremacist Violence

"The F. B. I can't tell you how many people white supremacist killed in the United States last year because they don't even collect the data from the ACLU. This is at liberty. I'm Emerson Sykes a staff attorney here at the you and your host. The FBI is an agency that looms large in the American imagination and popular culture. It's our nation's top law enforcement organization it supposedly there to keep us safe protect our rights and defend the rule of law yet. Its history has been rife with abuse for more than a century the the FBI has aggressively targeted dissidents. Gone after minorities and overstepped its authority in ways that have defined American policing today. We're speaking with Mike German and an ex FBI agent a fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice and a former ACLU lobbyist. Mike recently published a book called disrupt discredit and and divide how the new FBI damages democracy. We'll discuss how post nine eleven. FBI has exacerbated divisions in American society by targeting targeting minority groups even as it ignored the rise of white supremacist. Violence Mike German. Thanks very much for coming into the studio doing really my pleasure so I have just start by asking you a basic question. Why Unearth did you join the FBI? It was actually the realization of a childhood dream when I was about five years old. Oh my parents asked me what I was going to do with my life and I said I would go to law school and joined the FBI and my mother heard law school and said that's it. You're going to do it in my dad who who was an army officer heard the FBI and they were like that's it and so I never thought about any other kind of career path and it turned out. Luckily that that law school was one of Eh more direct routes to go into the FBI. At that time it later changed so I went to northwestern law school and managed to get in during the time that the FBI be. I was in a hiring phase and realize that dream and some part of you really deeply believed in the mission of the organization absolutely and in many ways I still deeply only believe in the mission I mean if I didn't care about the FBI. Obviously I wouldn't still be writing about it and talking about it. I think it does have that critical mission in defending defending the rule of law in the United States. And unfortunately when the law enforcer becomes a lawbreaker it doesn't just damage. The rights of the individuals were caught up in that illegal activity or abusive activity but it damages the rule of law and that creates a cycle of of reaction among the public. That I think leads to greater authoritarianism when you lose trust in institutions. Lose trust in the law as a protector. People tend to want to. I put their trust in some strong figure of authority and last couple of years. We've had a lot of people put their trust in Donald Trump and interestingly for me as as I was writing the book there was another group of people who put their faith in Robert. Muller that he somehow is part of the resistance and we're liberals liberal icon Robert Mueller right but it was that same sort of ignoring his history and saying we're just GONNA put one hundred percent trust that he's going to save bus and talk about him if he sounds saint. That is GONNA come down and protect US and part of the reason that I wanted to write. The book is to to reveal what is actually wrong inside the FBI. What has been wrong for quite some time but in a form where it's not just they did this bad thing and they did this bad thing and they did this bad thing showing how it's actually affecting our democracy well it's really a fascinating perspective that you present because there are a lot of critics of the FBI but you you have a very nuanced understanding of the roots of those criticism but also what it's done right? And I want to come back to the point you made about trust and trust in institutions and trust and individuals vigils. But let's start with your own experience as an FBI agent one of the main assignments that you had was actually infiltrating white supremacist groups and in your retailing this was sort of the FBI at its best. Can you tell us why you think that this was a positive example of what the FBI can do. Sure I was very fortunate in my career. I fourteen years Got To work cases that were fundamental to my understanding of what the role of the FBI is as a protector of the public from the most powerful force is so initially when I was hired in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight is when the savings and loan crisis was going on so there were these wealthy financiers who twisted the system in a way to take advantage of people across the country and cost the government billions of dollars so so being able to work those types of cases from the beginning of my career. You know again was reinforcing that this agency protects the public and then one of the great great things about an FBI career was. I went from working the biggest financial crime of the era to going undercover and Neo Nazi. Let's see skinhead groups so you know it was quite a transition but allowed that use of different skills. I'd never worked undercover before so that was the first undercover opportunity opportunity that I had and found that I was surprised somewhat that I was actually very good at that and Those weren't easy cases. I grew up in the military. Okay so I don't think I was naive about the limits of government you know that it's highly bureaucratic and their problems. So I didn't expect it to be easy to do and felt that my role was to use all the skills and training from law school through how I grew up to do my job opt to do what was expected of me by the public and take risks that were appropriate to do that to target serious crime and certainly the that kind of violence that white supremacists and other militant groups on the far writing. GAIJIN is continues to be a persistent problem so I saw it as a way to again protect the public from powerful threats and you highlight the fact that your focus was actually pursuing suing crime and violence right. You weren't chasing after an ideology. You weren't chasing after White Supremacist ideology but rather criminals within these organizations right. Ah felt that I was really lucky when I joined the FBI and growing up wanting to be an FBI agent. I read everything I could find about the FBI so I knew about all the bad stories of the FBI during hoover era the CO Intel pro program co Intel pro is the FBI program that targeted dissidents and civil rights leaders in the one thousand nine hundred sixties. Right exactly. I understood how the Church Committee the Senate committee that investigated those abuses worked and how the reforms were implemented so. I felt really lucky that we had learned those lessons that we should maintain a focus on law enforcement and particularly in working undercover. I found not to be very helpful because when I'm in a room full of Neo Nazis. Everybody is saying something that scares the Dickens out of me. Everybody's saying something something that is totally abhorrent to me but the rules required me to sit down with a piece of paper and write. What was the objective evidence that suggested? They were are involved in criminal activity rather than just venting their spleen with some really horrible language and that discipline assisted the investigation often. We hear about trading privacy and civil liberties for greater security but what I found is by focusing on the criminals. I'm not I'm improving security and protecting civil liberties by not paying attention to the people who are just exercising their first amendment rights. So when I saw the reforms that were put in Post Church Committee being eroded after nine eleven I knew that was going to be very dangerous. You sort of position yourself as coming in at least east during almost a golden era for the FBI post all of these horrible abuses in the early years. Posted the reckoning of the Church righty but before were nine eleven reset the game and I wanNA come back to some of the nine eleven related issues but this fundamental sort of dichotomy that you point out right-wing law enforcement and national security and you seem to say that the FBI when it's doing law enforcement chasing down crimes does honorable work but when they start getting into intelligence national security that's when a lot of the abuses occur aclu. We spend a lot of time actually fighting again law enforcement so I want to just ask you to pull out why you think that distinction is important. It's a little bit jarring to hear that law enforcement is actually see the better side of the great I think from the origin of our country there was a recognition. That government is most dangerous to liberty when it's exercising its police power so if you look at the bill of rights for instance half of them have to do with limiting police power right right so our criminal. Justice system is set up in a way to challenge those government powers but when a law enforcement agency claims authorities beyond those law enforcement powers whether they're referred to as national security authorities or domestic intelligence at the. Party's you lose many of those protections. What J. Edgar Hoover was famous for was not improperly charging people and somehow ramming those cases with false evidence through the courts? Not that that doesn't can happen. There are abuses in law enforcement but what he's infamous for is using the tools that we give law enforcement to go after real criminals finals against people whose politics he didn't like or whose personal lives our social lives. He didn't like and using the tools in a way that suppress their activities ladies and that was the conclusion of Church Committee was that these were used specifically to suppress first amendment activities target First Amendment activity and suppress it so taping Martin Luther King and sending those tapes to his wife that kind of conduct has nothing to do with law enforcement. And most of it's done in secret so it's not that the law enforcement authorities can't be abused there too easily abused which is why we have the system that we have to try to protect against that abuse but when law enforcement claims this extra authority and particularly when it's no longer based on a reasonable suspicion of criminal Activity right. That's a very low standard. Most law enforcement officers wake up suspicious. It's not hard to meet that standard but at least it requires that the discipline that I had to go through what is the actual factual basis to believe. This person is doing wrong because oftentimes doing that. I would find that from the conversation station on really worried about person number one but when I sit down with a piece of paper. There's this quiet person there but boy they have the evidence against that person a stronger. So I'M GONNA quit hanging out with this loud mouth and start trying to get closer to this person who who I actually have. Evidence is doing something wrong. Will you said that they're all sorts sorts of imperfect as they may be constitutional and statutory constraints on police but as you point out the FBI as an agency has been since conception essentially unconstrained under the constitution or under any statute right. I I have a chapter called the lawless law enforcement agency. And it's it's because it's actually true that the FBI was created in a fit of executive peak. Where the Justice Department had asked for an investigative force and Congress had no so when Congress went out of session the Justice Department under Charles Bonaparte the Attorney General and Teddy Roosevelt? Just did it. On their own and by the time Congress came back it was kind of a fait accompli particularly because because they were elites of information about corruption investigations involving members of Congress including some of the members of Congress who were opposing the creation of a new force the administration spun it as. Oh the reason. These members of Congress don't want this force because they don't want to be investigated so it operated operated for fifty years without any rules not no rules limiting rules created by Congress and basically with thank wink and a nod from different presidents about how they should do their work and J. Edgar Hoover was very good at asking for an engine taking the mile And so particularly because he was in charge for almost fifty years talk about how in the nineteen twenties they were particular ideas about what groups should be enfranchised in which when shouldn't and that changed over that period but Jeb your hoover didn't change much his it is attitude so the FBI was still almost entirely white still entirely male and deconstructing that institution that he created has proven to be very difficult. Even though the Church Committee investigation led to many serious reforms that did create a legal structure and unfortunately that legal structure was dismantled significantly since nine eleven that history that you trace his really fascinating where the FBI started out by investigating radicals and Communists Socialists and then socialist Jason Civil rights groups. And then you have the reckoning of the Church Committee refocusing on law enforcement and then and as you say the game changed again around nine eleven and a lot of what you talk about in terms of nine eleven goes back to this sort of idea that the FBI stop focusing focusing on law enforcement and now went more to an intelligence model in large part trying to prevent crime rather than investigate crime right. And that's very problematic because it's very different process from using evidence of criminal activity right and I'm always fascinated when when I hear proponents of intelligence authorities talk about the difference between evidence and intelligence because they should just well. They're all these crazy Z.. Rules around evidence and we need information not information that we can get through this crazy process of getting an admitted into court except that those rules aren't just just obscure things lawyers came up with in order to make it hard to be a lawyer right that they are actually designed to get to the truth right to challenge things that it shouldn't be trustworthy and we don't have that intelligence side and in this debate we rarely discuss. What exactly intelligence is you know? It's this the idea that there's this font of knowledge that of course we should go to the font of knowledge. But if you call it a fragmented pieces of information rumors Innuendo. Can you endo disinformation by people who are exercising. Some kind of grudge. Who wants that information you know not really but when you empower that side what you do is you? unhedged there the agency from facts and that's where a lot of bias can creep in so so if I'm looking for who might be threatening in the future. I'm not going to necessarily look at people who share my background my values. I'm going to realize that. Oh you know this. FBI applicant who got arrested in college for being drunk and stupid and it was a misdemeanor. That's no big deal. I oh I know that experience. That's okay but if that young person lived in a community that I'm unfamiliar with than maybe was drunk and stupid but it was in in some environment that I'm not comfortable with. I might see that as scary so I'm not GonNa let that person into the FBI. And I think that's why we see every FBI director at said diversifying the FBI was important at the FBI. A national law enforcement agency should reflect the society that it's supposed was to protect and every year there was growth there it it improved a little bit until two thousand one and then it reversed and the number of black and a number of Latino agents increasingly we started going down until twenty sixteen when the FBI actually stopped publishing the data because it was looking so bad and the same with women under hoover. There were no female agents and it got up to about twenty percent and it's been stagnant there ever since but the number of women in management of the FBI has actually gone down. So I think that's part of this process of determining who is a threat based on not on facts but on some other feelings about what's going on I wanNA come back to sort of the institutional biases within the FBI that reflected in large part the biases within our culture culture but focusing again on the post nine eleven period. It's understandable I think for people to say we can't in in the same way we might wait for a drug deal to happen before we arrest the jug dealer. It's more problematic to wait for a terrorist attack to happen before we go after the terrorist but at the same time a lot of this is rooted. Some of the predictive policing in something you point out is called the radicalization theory which basically says that there's a path a somewhat predictable predictable path with clear indicators where someone is marching towards radicalization and terrorism. And that all you have to do is pick up on these indicators. And that's how you can nip these things in the bud before the terrorist act happens make sense on first blush. Tell me why that's unfounded. Enron sure so that is sort of the explanation that was put out by people who wanted to make the change to an intelligence agency that we can't wait for criminal event to happen. My whole career is an undercover agent was very proactive. We weren't waiting for things to happen. We were getting involved in the organization and gathering evidence of the plot happening so it was sort of a false premise. From the beginning criminal. Intelligence has been part of law enforcement since there has been law enforcement But again it's based on this reasonable suspicion of criminal activity you have to have an objective basis to believe that crime is occurring but again when you take away away the facts what you end up with is conjecture and theory and that's really what intelligence is and part of what really frightened me right after nine. Eleven is is that this language the J. Edgar Hoover used going back to the nineteen teens. Radicalization was all of a sudden readopted. Terrorism was around forever rate. It's it's one of the oldest forms of violence. Weaker party uses against a stronger party that was working with terrorist groups as an as an undercover agent Seeing that this language of radicalization coming back the idea that oh the terrorism is a product of an ideology ideology of an extreme ideology rather than recognizing in my cases there were tons of Nazis. Who didn't ever commit had a crime right? They had their belief system and as long as they weren't violating the crime as an FBI agent. I didn't care God bless them go out there and write your newsletters. There's and do your marches and that's fine as long as you're not engaged in violence and what I found interesting was that there were many people who when I would meet them and talk about the people I was hanging out with. They would try to stop me. Would say oh. Those people are idiots and they're gonna get you arrested and they're gonNa get you in trouble and the types of things they they do. Engaging in violence actually makes us as a movement look bad. What we need to do is put a suit on you? Run you for office. You can help us write these newsletters you can write op eds. You can do all this political work. That will move our movement forward much more effectively than the violence. So the concept of radicalization suggests the the violence is a product of the ideology and knowing that wasn't factually true was problematic enough for bi. I agent right. I should be based on my my investigations on evidence But more problematically just like back in the nineteen. When it was labor movement mint and civil rights movements that were being targeted and Emigrants and immigrants the indicators are I activities so it's this strange way a criminalising first amendment activity by framing it as a precursor to violence? You know one of the problems I think we had after nine. Eleven is that Bush administration Shen presented terrorism as a new threat. This is a new kind of warfare and what that meant. Is that nothing previous. This is worth studying so we had all these people come in to the terrorism program. who had all these ideas based on nothing? This is what we should do moving forward you know. And I think that's how the torture program started started was that they completely ignored that the FBI has been interrogating people using legitimate techniques for decades. So those are the experts. It's on interrogation but instead they went to people who really had no training the FBI they recognized that obtaining a truthful statement eight-minute required voluntariness. That had if you coerced a subject even with tactics that were not anything remotely near torture. The chances of getting in a false confession were much higher so rather than turning to these agents insane bring us your expertise. They shut those agents out and brought in very every odd actors. That came up with stuff that you might see on TV but it actually doesn't work in my life you said as an FBI agent these first amendment protected activities. These are totally fine with you. Not your problem. I would just have to add that confronting. These ideologies is our problem as a as a society. It's our job job to try to confront these hateful ideologies. But we actually don't want law enforcement trying to do that and I think right and I think it's important to recognize that that suppressing the ideology doesn't make it go away right. I mean I'm always fascinated when people talk about the increase in white supremacy in the United States. As if the United States has always had a white supremacy problem right it was founded on a white supremacy. So you know. Those ideas through the civil rights movement wasn't were suppressed somewhat but that didn't prevent violence. Violence actually increased in many ways so decoupling the criminality from the ideology geology. I think is critical and particularly because if I was to create a program where I wanNA convince white supremacists not to engage in violence coming from an FBI agent agent or from the ACLU is not going to be convincing and other white. Supremacist telling them that. That's not effective for our movement is far more powerful. And so that was part of the problem was how ineffective this methodology would be but also recognizing that it's also going to lead to civil rights abuses abuses and again this return to targeting people for their First Amendment Activities for their speech for their associations. And that's what the radicalization model basically compels us and it's not just ineffective as you say for law enforcement to go after ideology but it also leads to torture leads to math surveillance. It's led to entrapment Atma of especially Muslims. If you believe that somebody who has these ideas is on the pathway to becoming a terrorist then it only makes sense to entrap them right it. Let's move them along that radicalization pathway much quicker when there are actually bad people out there. I mean that's one thing that I learned law enforcement. There are people out there doing harm against other people and we should focus on that one of the fascinating things since nine eleven. We're very lucky. We live in a very safe society. Heidi terrorism it's much more rare than it was in the nineteen seventies people. Forget that I want to turn back to your earlier experience dealing with these white supremacist groups. Because as you and many others there's have highlighted actually the greatest threat to our nation in terms of domestic terrorist acts are these white supremacist groups. One of the things that I think is challenging with the phrasing of white supremacists said white supremacy is baked into our country. Right we all learn it of every race we understand that there is a hierarchy and white white is on top. And that's something that is a part of the air that we breathe but it also refers to these tattoo wearing hooded extremists. Miss who may or may not be violent so I wonder if you have any thoughts about how we sort of disentangle these structural issues which are absolutely called white supremacy with with this white supremacist threat which is particularly. I mean I think a lot of times people feel like Oh. You're just crying wolf. You're you're saying that I'm a white. Supremacist I'm not the white supremacist. I'm I'm just a normal American when the point is that normal America is ingrained with this ideology right and I think that's the part that's hard is is that it's easy for the government to present. White supremacist violence. The guys with tattoos and the skinheads and as this extreme fringe of our society. I-IT's not recognizing how white supremacy actually in facts all of our society if you look down here in the financial district of New York and you go to all these corporate boardrooms they're going to be disproportionately white and if you go to the jails and prisons. They're disproportionately black and Brown. I don't think that's an accident. That's set up up in our system. If you look at our immigration system that has always been based on race and ethnicity so these policies still have that lingering effect from from the founding of our nation has a nation where white people were were legally dominant in this society. And so it's a whole of society diety approach to understanding how that's still in fact the the groups that white supremacist most often attack Are the same groups that are disproportionately victims of police violence right the FBI routinely warns its agents that there are white supremacists in law enforcement so you should be careful with your investigations of white supremacist groups in who you share them Pa but just recently in some house oversight meetings a counter-terrorism assistant director of the FBI was asked about those f. b. i.. Memos and he said he wasn't familiar with them and asked whether he had a strategy for for dealing with the fact that we have white supremacists in law enforcement and protecting the community not just protecting FBI investigations and their integrity but actually protecting the community from these police officers. There's there's no response so I think it takes our educational system. It takes a broader conversation and obviously the ACLU in the Brennan Center. We're all part of that but I think the way that most Americans look at our system we tend to ignore what is demonstrable in fact as has a trained investigator. I tend to be focused on where there's actually evidence and you know these persistent problems in our criminal justice system and persistent disparities are because the system is not fair and I mean the way that these by a season institutional and cultural issues manifest in the FBI you talked about the diversity within within the forest the fact that the FBI knows that they're white. Supremacist within law enforcement is was a shocking detail but also the fact that they in many ways underplayed the the threat of white supremacist violence while also focusing on other much lesser threats including black identity extremists. Something that the ACLU has been trying to get additional information about the litigation. But the societal problems are reflected in the bureau in a way that's sort of understandable but also in ways is that are quite frightening right right like lack of diversity within the FBI and obviously when you have an organization that's dominated by white males and you look look at demographics and political opinions. You know you have a monoculture basically that you're building in that organization so how it looks at threats and how it prioritizes advertises threats is influenced by that and it's fascinating that you know there's talk right now because there is more concern and more attention being paid to white supremacist promises violence that why isn't the FBI. More focused on this. They must need new laws. That's when the FBI is arguing. We need new powers or seven the FBI the FBI agents Associations Association's. I'm in the Department of Justice where I wrote. A report called wrong priorities. On fighting terrorism that show that there are fifty two federal laws of terrorism that applied domestic terrorism. I five federal hate crimes that apply to a lot of the white supremacist violence. They're organized crime statutes that prevent these terrorist organizations from operating. So so there's plenty of law choice policy choice not to prioritize these investigations and in fact today the F. B. I can't tell you how many people white supremacist promises killed in the United States last year because they don't even collect the data the Justice Department does victims surveys regularly in those indicate there about two hundred hundred thirty thousand violent hate crimes per year the Justice Department prosecutors twenty-five cases here so it shows that they are completely lately ignoring this more impactful type of violence to the extent that we don't even know it so when people talk about an increase in violence we don't know if it's increasing because we don't know the scope of it you know you have a lot of suggestions for how the FBI can do a better job. I think one of the primary ones is the need for public like engagement and public oversight. We need to keep our eye on these folks even if we have better rules even if we have clearer rules we can never fully trust our government to during its best without keeping an eye on them and making sure that they're staying in line and one of the key players in the public oversight especially of law enforcement is the whistleblower and you yourself where a whistle blower and. I wonder if you can just talk about what it means to have those folks within these organizations willing and able to speak out and how you realize that. That was what you needed to do. So I don't think anybody joins any organization to be a whistle blower. That certainly was far from my mind but post nine eleven. When I saw a terrorism case being mishandled I thought it was my duty as an FBI agent as a law enforcement officer to point announced there was illegal activity taking place within the FBI and really didn't think about it as being a whistle blower? I mean uh-huh I did look up. What are the rules of how I do this? which are very complex? And I think intentionally designed to serve more as a trap than us. She'll will for whistleblowers the FBI and the other intelligence agencies were able to convince Congress to exempt them from the Whistle Blower Protection Act of Nineteen eighty-nine nine and instead they created internal systems that were supposed to mirror that protections that other federal employees have but number one. It's an internal process so it's hard to imagine that that could ever be one hundred percent fair but number two. It created this very narrow pathway so I would have to go not to my supervisor Sir not to his supervisor but to this special agent in charge of the office in order to do it but the FBI has very paramilitary sort of chain of command. Dan and in reality. If I had called my special agent in charge sat in front of his office waiting for the door the first thing he would have done. It's called the assistant special agent charge. Say Why why is German sitting outside my office and the assistant special agent in charge would have called my supervisor said why is my German sitting outside the office best right. So it creates a system that was designed to fail number one but number two to identify the whistleblower so it makes it impossible for the right that any other citizen or federal employee has to go to a member of Congress with an important matter it pulls out right away at least I believe the right still exists but the protections disappear if you go through that avenue or you showed exceptional courage and it's a system designed to really test that courage so we appreciate your bravery and also all the work that you've done since and I just want as enclosing what can an average citizen a listener NEC Reporter do to help build accountability and reform within the FBI grade so in the last part of the book. I do talk about reform options and and do explain how it's important for members of the public work in solidarity with the people who are being targeted by the FBI. Throwing around the terraced label is very debilitating particularly for political groups. Right if they're trying to go out there and Organiz and convince people to their opinion if the government is calling calling them a terrorist that makes it very difficult so understanding your political opinions might not be falling under the microscope right now. If you don't protect act everyone's ability to express themselves your own rights are being lessened so to work in solidarity is very important to make sure that you're reaching out out to these groups that are being unfairly targeted. The second is that it's almost the reverse of the civil rights period where you had state governments. They weren't following the law and the federal government coming into ensure that they did. We're seeing state and local governments now challenging FBI policy specifically in Portland Oregon in San Francisco. California where the states have looked at their own state and local rules or the local governments have looked at their own state and local rules. That limit police I intelligence activity and understanding that they're now more protective than the FBI guidelines so when state and local police go over to that Federal Task Force. They often have to agree to work under the federal rules. So Portland has chosen to pull their officers out of the Task Force. San Francisco has chosen to pull their officers out of the the the joint. Terrorism Task Force Atlanta has pulled out of all Federal Task Force based on Bodycam policy which requires them to wear body cans but the federal task force. I won't let local officers wear body cams when they engage in that federal work. So this is I think important development that we're hoping we'll we'll spread and local governments will take a look at what their own police officers are doing on these federal task forces. We have protect our neighbors and we got invest in our local. Oh governments exactly Mike German. Thanks very much for joining us. And thanks for all your great work. We really appreciate it. Thank you thanks very much for listening listening. If you enjoyed this conversation please be sure to subscribe that Liberty Wherever you get your podcasts and rate and review the show we really appreciate the feedback until next week piece.

FBI ACLU United States J. Edgar Hoover Congress Mike German Church Committee northwestern law school Justice Department officer special agent in charge Emerson Sykes Brennan Center for Justice hoover
How the FBI Abets White Supremacists and Terrorists

Reason Podcast

1:14:21 hr | 11 months ago

How the FBI Abets White Supremacists and Terrorists

"This is the reason podcasts and I'm your host Nicholas Bake few organizations elicit more polarized responses than the federal the Bureau of Investigation or the FBI supporters claim that the FBI has played in a central role in protecting the United States from all sorts of criminal activities since its origins origins over a century ago as the Bureau of Investigation critics said the FBI routinely breaks the very laws it seeks to enforce and and has often been a force of state based repression and surveillance of perfectly legal activity. My guest today is a former. FBI agent who nonetheless S. is a vocal critic of the Bureau Mike German served in the FBI for sixteen years many as an undercover operative who infiltrated white supremacist groups script he left the bureau in two thousand four as a whistle blower who told Congress his former colleagues had mishandled variety of counterterrorism cases he worked at the ACLU after that published a memoir titled Thinking like a terrorist insights of a former FBI undercover agent and now he hangs his shingle at New York University's Brennan Center for Justice he also has a new book out disrupt discredit and divide how the new FBI damages democracy for today's reason podcast. We're GONNA talk about the issues. He raises them. What sorts of reforms he thinks are necessary but I I want to tell you about a fantastic antastic new documentary style podcast series that takes an in depth look at the history of the Constitution? It's from the legal minds over at the Institute for Justice so right away you know it's GonNa be good. It's called bound by oath and it features interviews with historians legal scholars and the real people involved in historic and contemporary cases that Scotus is listening to bound by oath. Go check it out. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts now onto our conversation with Mike German. I'm an author of disrupt discredit and divide how the new FBI damages democracy Mike thanks for talking. Thanks for having me give me the elevator pitch of your book disrupt discredit and divide the elevator pitch is a contemporary history of the FBI that explains how it's transition to a national security and Domestic Intelligence Agency from a law enforcement agency led to using race sadness the national origin and descent as indicators of dangerousness that required suppression and we're going to get to that because that's the new FBI FBI but you right in the introduction to the bucks in the first chapter that the FBI has literally been a lawless government agency you know since its beginning the Congress and I'm quoting has never passed the legislative charter establishing and circumscribing the FBI's investigative powers and I remember reading in Tim Wieners leaners FBI's history enemies. He talked about this. What does that mean that the FBI does not actual? I mean it exists. It's existed you know in one form or another for over one hundred years but it doesn't actually have can congressional authorization so the FBI was created basically through executive Fiat the Attorney General Time Attorney General Bonaparte wanted ask Congress to create an investigative basket of agency for the Justice Department to conduct its cases and that Congress had no so Teddy Roosevelt just ordered his attorney attorney general to create it on its own so while Congress was out they created this investigative agency and it was a an accomplished entity by the time Congress came back in the politics ticks changed a little so it never actually had it was never created by Congress it was created through executive Fiat and remains governed governed only by the executive zone rules right and I rem- call in previous accounts I've read about the essentially once hoover was in charge one of the first things that would do whenever there was a new president is he would go and kind of save various things that counted as a kind of reauthorization right exactly and and this waxed and waned during times there were periods where abuses were discovered like the Palmer raids that required a retrenchment to who it's law enforcement mission and that's actually when hoover was put in charge and then win World War Two is approaching obviously that the national security years increased and and President Roosevelt offered to to expand the the investigative authorities have have hoover's FBI and then after the one thousand nine hundred seventy s and hoover's death and the Church Committee investigation again the the Justice Department issued attorney general guidelines that circumscribe the FBI's authorities authorities but those are amended by every attorney general and given the time. Sometimes they're tweaked a little bit where it stronger but most times they're they're giving them more anyway before we get to you know the current situation or kind of an and it's not exactly after nine eleven but certainly nine eleven is a big break in the the twenty first century let's talk a little bit about past abuses by the FBI and especially by co Intel pro what was that and how is that kind of paradigmatic of the ways in which the FBI often exceeds what most people would consider like a legitimate function of law enforcement respond sure so so hoover cut his teeth at the FBI in the early nineteen hundreds as radical chaser and and he had a deep deep seated hatred of communism and even during World War Two when of course the threat was Nazis his agency was really focused guest on what he thought was Communist subversion of the United States government communist infiltration in the United States government so after World War Two ended he took these new authorities awardees he was given during the the war and turn them specifically against communists and Co Intel pro was counterintelligence program and the idea was is to use the investigative tools given to the FBI as a law enforcement agency but target them against political enemies and of course there weren't that many the communists and certainly none that we're doing such harm to the United States that they required that attention so soon hoover expanded to include Socialists and then the new laughed the antiwar left as we approached the Vietnam War sort of looked like socialist a little bit so we'll expanded to include them and then of course the civil well rights movement said some things that sounded a little light communists and there was somebody was associated with somebody who is close to somebody else and so they expanded it to include what they called the black nationalist movement and there was also a co intel pro for white nationalists but that was a much more narrow and focused investigation Gatien actual criminal activity and was you know before we talk about just how bad the F. B. I. Has Been especially in the war on terror era. What were the big successes are worthy ones where you would say luck the F. B? I. Really now that here and they shut down significant threats to kind of piece in in our in our country so I thought your introduction was exactly right. I mean you have the proponents who point at that side of the FBI. It is very effective in protecting us from all kinds signs of different criminals and then the side that can be abused and has in the past and currently being abused. I think when you look at the the the successes successes to my way of thinking of it that the FBI is a tiny agency in the scope of things only thirty thousand employees only twelve thousand gun in badge carrying agents to cover the entire nation all federal crimes and with the expanded global reach of the FBI so what I always felt that their primary task was was to reinforce through a law to hold the most powerful to account and so I I joined the FBI during the savings and loan era where thousand savings alone bosses were prosecuted because of the failure to protect attack the financial system and so when I look at political corruption cases when I look at those few police abuse cases you know I think that's where they are really doing what they were intended to be when Theodore Roosevelt created them in nineteen thousand eight that would also include going after the mafia yeah yes or no I mean that that's a fascinating case where for a long time according to most histories who were really kind of denied the existence of offier partly at least some of the ratings I've done is because he didn't really think Italians could be that smart to create an a national crime and they weren't really a challenge to the establishment and that's really what he was concerned about protecting the establishment and the mafia committed some small time crimes a and made life hard for working people especially here in New York City but they weren't gonNA overthrow the government of the United States so he really paid them little mind and and since his death obviously the FBI has taken that Congress acted within the Rico Statute Racketeering Corrupt Organization Act so those cases certainly have been very good particularly where you have the mafia corrupting the police corrupting judges corrupting politicians so again again. It's that powerful entity wrapped up with criminality that that the FBI is good at dismantling. Obviously Rico is a very broad statute and it can be easily abused at particularly targeting street gangs which are often don't have that kind of power structure and the associational elements is where you're not going after the people who are committing the crime but people associated with the people committing the crime where it can be abused. How was you worked undercover infiltrating being white supremacist gangs and two things about that one you you were based in the Boston office right I case I did was out of Los Angeles? Okay Okay but at some point did you work out of boss out of debt providence right out could providence so and you were there around the time. Are you knew people who had been involved in in the Whitey Bolger so I got to I got to providence shortly after Judge Wolf started digging into that the informant handling of of Whitey bulger's so it was just breaking out and I was just meeting agents in the office who who either had been involved or most of the people who are evolved that it was very interesting time to be there because as an outsider my perspective was yeah these guys did real wrong me also set the FBI was covering four Whitey bulger on the grounds that he was an informant and kind of sanctioning has murders and crimes but did they really get anything out of him for that assuming that that's even were also there there are people who've done deep research on that and they say that he who is he and his F. B. I. Agent Handler were basically regurgitating other informant information to make it appear that he was providing a lot of useful information it what what what is clear is that under the FBI protection he committed an awful lot of crimes who headed there was an actual sanctioning of that or whether it was just negligence I think there's there's an argument over where where the line is on that I mean obviously there were plenty of people in Boston law enforcement who knew that that he seemed to have a protector in the FBI rather than a pursuer and and at the FBI was slow walking and attempting to withhold evidence from judge. Who's doing that investigation? I think was a clear indication that they knew something was wrong and rather than coming clean and opening up the books books a fought it as long as they could and that seems to be a recurring theme in your book that the FBI first imperative is to protect itself rather than actually make sure justice's. Donner people are held accountable. Absolutely you know one of the first mottos you're taught when you go to the FBI Academy is don't embarrass the bureau. I I assumed that that meant don't make some mistake out there on the street. That's GONNA make the FBI look bad but really as as as my career went on and certainly shortly after I became a whistleblower I realized it meant no don't say anything about what the F. B. is doing that would when you were infiltrating white supremacist gangs what was that at like and I mean it was a difficult and did the white supremacist groups that you were infiltrating did they pose a enact substantial threat to the American government or are they also something that should be dealt with at a lower level of law enforcement they don't present an existential threat they do present Ed persistent criminal problem that that needs constant attention not overwhelming attention the FBI my case is used traditional law enforcement tactics tactics and techniques. They were criminal cases based on criminal predicates avert each person that I investigated. I wasn't investigating the White Supremacist Movement. I I wasn't trying to follow People Express Neo Nazi ideas. I was investigating people who are engaged in the illegal manufacturer and Trafficking Weapons Ooh and when I got into those people they introduced me to the people who are actually using those weapons and so it ended up being what what I I saw a perfect template for how to work these cases and did a second case in Washington state with anti-government militias and the case proceeded the same way so we focused on on illegal weapons trafficking and ended up uncovering a number of conspiracies but at the end of a six week trial that was well attended by militia supporters older militiamen came up to me and said he wanted to shake my hand. I testified as the undercover agent who infiltrated the group. He wasn't directly associated edit or involved in any of the criminal activity and he said you know I sat here through the trial and I saw the evidence and I saw that these people are going to hurt somebody and that would have been dangerous for my movement so I appreciate you. FBI undercover agent for what you did that's gotta be Kinda weird moment from not the words from an anti government extremists remiss so so that just reinforced our criminal justice system is designed to focus on exactly that type of crime where where the goal is to show their goal all is to show the excesses of the government but if we operate in a reasonable fashion focused where we should be even skeptic can be convinced that the the evidence this was properly presented properly collected and properly present discussion and the the grounds upon which became a whistle blower and that leads into kind of part one of your buck which really looks at the ways in which the agency fails its own agents through a mix of incompetence and actually you say discrimination ratio or racial on ethnic discrimination what happened that you know to a point where in you know in the early two thousands after nine eleven year like fuck it. I've had enough. I've got I've got to go a public and you actually went to Congress and discuss things after nine eleven. Obviously the focus was no longer on white supremacists and I knew that I would have to learn how these other groups operated and sure enough pretty pretty soon the phone rings and I'm asked to go undercover again because a a white supremacist group at I have to be a little careful row. I discussed this but a a supporter of the Middle Eastern terrorist group reached out to a white supremacist group based based on their share shared hatred of Jews say post Patriot Act. Things are a little shaky for us. Can you engage in the types of support we they were doing for our overseas groups and we will promise you we'll kill Jews so that's something I don't we don't want to celebrate it but when it's something where you know white supremacists and radical Muslims can get together over her hatred of and it it makes clear more than anything else what I've always argued is terrorism is a methodology not an ideology and anything that will help them. One of the white supremacist gun dealers was not white that I put in jail but he was dealing guns to them so he was part of the criminal conspiracy they weren't going to say well. Our ideology doesn't really like your type where we're going to find out why does that make it easier to track people if you start to think of it as a methodology rather than an idiot absolutely and it keeps you you focused on the right thing. I was in a group of neo-nazis. Everybody was saying something that sounded very terrifying to me and things I really didn't like and if I had tried to chase ace everybody who was saying something I would have been very busy but for every person I investigated I had to have take sheet of paper and write down the evidence that that gave gave me an objective suspicion. These people were engaged in criminal activity and what I found was that can continue to focus me on the right people led me through the criminal element and keep in mind too that the criminal element is the fringe of these movements there are hundreds of thousands of far-right militants in this country who have really scary ideas but handfuls of them commit crimes and it's a manageable problem. If you focus on that if you if you try to suppress everybody who saying something bad on the Internet you're going to be very busy and I haven't seen any avance to suggest that actually makes the fringe elements less violent so how many if there are hundreds of thousands of kind of white nationalist type or white supremacist premises times what would you hazard a guess of radical Muslims in the United States tiny fraction of that in the states and and again and even among those radical Muslims only a tiny fraction of them would ever do something violent and part of it is that we've because we've built this counterterrorism apparatus. We have to have terrorists so there has been this impulse to manufacture terrorism where they'll find somebody who move is doesn't have friends or otherwise has some deficit in their ability to socialize or his angry at something and the undercover Operation Ration- is designed to turn them into a terrorist to give them weapons. Those are the types of things that we never would have done before two thousand and one and this I mean we read news reports. It's about this holiday time there and and I mean this also goes back to the sixties and right agents provocateur in you know it it was a joke in the sixties that if somebody whoever ever was calling to bomb stuff that was the FBI agent right in the mix right and bait you know there was the reform after the nineteen seventy six church committee so I was is operating in that element where if I had suggested to FBI headquarters I wanted to open a terrorism undercover operation targeting. Somebody who wasn't part of terrorist terrorist group didn't have a terrorist plan and didn't have any weapons they would have sent me for counseling and unfortunately that is a common tactic now now and so we're finding these marginalized people rather than looking at organized criminal behavior that can actually be much more dangerous because we have seventeen eighteen thousand homicides in this country year and the the solve rate has has gone down with back in the nineties. There were a whole lot more homicide sides but we actually solved more of them. Now we saw less of them and I think it's because we're in this prevention mode where we're out there searching for things rather than focusing on actual actual crimes the so yeah so bring that back to when you became a whistle blower you you know you you see you know these white nationalist groups and Muslim extremist groups getting together on how is the bureau responding to that kind of stuff so it at first they they were right on top of it and they called me and they asked me to set setup an undercover operation which I was. That's what I did at that point so we started getting ready but F. B. I. Headquarters which had approval authority eighty couldn't figure out what box fit in because it wasn't necessarily international terrorism because in their mind S.'s white supremacists or domestic terrorists even though we didn't invent white supremacy here it wasn't quite domestic terrorism because it had this international component so there is an argument over which which it belongs to when there was another argument over whether how it would work where the counterterrorism division was in such disarray a post nine eleven and the re formation so you couldn't find who the people you were looking for by the time you found them they had been reassigned to a different view is so it was just a big mess and rather than acknowledged there was a problem and that this was an opportunity that we needed to get on squared away for they decided to just keep putting it off and eventually I found out that one of the the initial tape recording of this agreement to work together gather had been recorded illegally and there's it it wasn't an intentional act by the informant who recorded it so there's a method for cabinet off the illegal recording to make sure that it doesn't taint the the rest of the investigation and moving forward but they they weren't doing that and so eventually I realized realized I had to report this illegal recording and then they made the recording disappear and and you talk about how they I mean on transcripts and things like that I use whiteout to kind of block out the idea that any of this wasn't quite kosher right. There was a ultimately there was an inspector general investigation he found that they had use wideout to alter dates in the documents and I remember getting a call from the inspector general investigator who said you're not going to believe this. They certainly certainly I've been living this for two years and he said well they hadn't it they they. They couldn't think they would get away with. It and I said they did. Get Away with it. I I was by that time. It was three years later. I was already out of the Bureau and sure enough. Nobody was ever punished for that. Act You you you know you're you're tough on people like historical figures like Jagger Hoover but also people in more in the more recent past Louis Freeh Robert Mueller James Komi. None of these guys are heroes. None of them rise above is the problem with the FBI and you talk about how half the time time they seem to be investigating people who either convert to Islam or you know are Americans of Chinese descent. People who come over from Egypt or other Muslim majority countries who are helping is this I mean is it. Fundamentally is at a breakdown at the top of the organization Shen or is it all of the individual agents at a combination of both after being you know kind of put on high alert by nine eleven it certainly failure alien leadership. I think what you have to understand about the. FBI is like any other organizations made up of individuals people and I think that there are uh fifteen twenty percent of the people who will follow the law no matter what and want the agency to follow the law and I interview many of them for the book who who are willing to risk their own career in order to to make sure the bureau's doing the right thing often at great peril to their career and then there are fifteen to twenty percent at the the bottom who think they're the good guys and if they're going to get bad guys however they define that any rules are inappropriate. They should be able to go get them simply because they're the good guys and it takes strong guidelines to make sure that we're empowering the top fifty percent instead instead of the bottom and I think that's what the Attorney General Guidelines allowed. It didn't stop all the abuses the FBI is still doesn't get the kind of scrutiny and from Congress US or public accountability to make sure it's always following the law but at least that top fifteen percent could pointed a rule and say you need to do this and if you're not doing this you're an error where once those rules were watered down after nine eleven that empowered the bottom fifteen percent because even when what they we're doing was clearly abusive and we've seen some of the counter terrorism training that who has offensively anti Muslim and not just ridiculously offensive but also also wrong. I mean you're teaching terrorism agents wrong information likewise in the intelligence field there was information that said never shake hands with Chinese as person of rank and the idea of that was that that just in terms of their etiquette that's wrong or we'll. We'll just what it reinforces. These are not human beings like us. These are somehow different inferior creatures that we that we don't have to treat with the the same respect and dignity that we would treat people like us. We're protecting us from them and unfortunately that would bleed over to the internal security parts of the FBI as well where they would look at their own agents and say well this person is suspect because they are part of this class class and could be vulnerable to recruitment in their into a terrorist group for or some intelligence operation therefore we need to make sure that they have extra scrutiny and we'll be less forgiving of some sort of administrative air and that that is a I mean it's a it's a you know on a certain level. I suppose people would say well. Look it makes sense you know nine eleven was pulled off by Islamic radicals from a particular set of countries of course we should focus our our energy on that or at this in fact what you argue is that is not always clear or that by casting a net that broadly you end and making it very difficult to find people who are behaving in a way that we should be tracking bright and it's also poor analysis of who attacked US right it wasn't it there isn't this broad movement right Al Qaeda had a specific goal in mind you know and if you look at them as has a group that was trying to achieve a political end. It's a lot easier to understand what they were doing and then but but there's an interest by a number of interest interest groups but also a number of people in government who want to make it part of one big movement because it's scarier than so it justifies more authorities. Do you sick it. I mean do you think the the people the the kind of architects I guess the of the war on terror and you know in its domestic application as well as its international one. I I mean were they acting in bad faith or were they in a panic mode and you know and I think because what are we going to raise his FDR's internment of Japanese-americans American citizens during World War Two what is amazing about that beyond all of the other things you can say about it is that there were no credible threats that were ever uncovered or actions of Japanese American citizens. You know acting in cahoots with Japanese people so you can only look at that now. As kind of I've act of racial hysteria right were the architects of the war on terror. Were they acting in bad faith kind of as you were suggesting or were they just panicked and stupid Pitt and how they were respect I think all of the above and that their various actors playing here there were some people who who believed this all the time that the people who come from these countries are a threat to us in there all part of one homogeneous whole threat and so this just reinforced their bigotry and then there were other people who had specific policy goals in mind and they could mold the facts to fit the policy that they wanted and there were a lot of people who who were just ignorant grant but what makes me more cynical as there were a lot of people in the FBI that I knew who knew a lot about these groups and they were the people who are marginalized. I remember one time later when I was working for the ACLU somebody who claimed to have been in the rooms when those torture decisions were made said you know well you know everybody's got to give us break because nobody else had a better answer and it's like yes we did we did and we were screaming that answer from the edges but you wouldn't let us in the room. You know that's very different to say you know Oh we were panicking and we didn't have the answers when you're locking the people banging on the door with the answer's out and you're and the book goes through a a series of arguments or or reminds us that for all of the use of torture and the FBI was deeply implicated in the right you know by all accounts we did not get actionable intelligence out of that so it's it's not only morally repugnant but it's inefficient from a pragmatic point of right and and especially are you having been in terrorist groups and understanding that that they don't think you know this one bombing or this one attack even something as monstrous in scope is nine eleven and is going to collapse the government of the United States right the idea is to provoke a response to provoke and overall response weird way every terrorist Ariss we torture is actually fulfilling their goal exactly that's exactly what we want to have. It is a fascinating because trying to study as much much about terrorism as I could. I came across the battle of Algiers. That's just such an important movie talking about that kind of back back and forth conflict with the violence and shortly after nine eleven there was a newspaper article that they were screening that at the Pentagon and I remember thinking Oh thank you but I didn't realize they were looking for tech the Paraguayan that came out and that's a mid sixties movie you know that is you you know a landmark of kind of modern cinema but it's it's weird when I heard they were screening that at the Pentagon and at other kind of military operations I was like wow that's dispiriting movie you to watch because it shows how you can win. The immediate battle rang lose the war. That's the whole point because you create you create a circumstance and everybody is again right a a very peculiar ray choice of film to be show right and particularly because there's the scene where they're taking detainees head and putting it under I'll water facet as they were taking notes on do rather laughing real bad film criticism political chaos in part two of your book it's titled Disrupting Diversity and descent and that's you look at the ways in which the FBI you know started going after it rather than actual criminality was kind of people who look different or acted different or who were pushing back and saying what the government is overreaching here you particularly you discuss the radicalization theory that the FBI operates under what is the radicalization theory and why is it wrong so the the radicalization theory is a theory that suggest how people become terrace how people move from being a normal person into becoming a terrorist and according to to what the FBI and others produced. It's down a predictive pathway and all of the evidence suggests this this is false this. There's no such predictive pathway there's no and even many of the studies are carefully written to say Eddie there was one done by the NYPD here that had these four followed the same model of the F. B. I. Having this the four steps where it's the adoption of an ninety allergy involvement in wearing Muslim close and and praying more often down this pathway and it had four steps and but there was a little paragraph that said you know in the in the small number of studies we did we found not all people who became terrorist followed it it in an orderly fashion one two three four some of them you jump between them. Some missed some steps. Some didn't touch any steps so it's really not a path. It's four rocks in the woods that somebody might or might not touch on the way to becoming a tariff of what is what's the classic progression you know. I'm you know I mm-hmm. I don't know maybe I'M A soldier who gets dismissed from the military for something and you know I'm hanging out and Youngstown Ohio. How do I become a tear right right so what they would say is focusing on on Muslim terrorists than they would say becoming a Muslim particularly becoming a convert that the FBI believed conversion showed road an excess of radicalization and then adopting Muslim closer practices so there are many Muslims who you would know they were Muslim unless you follow them to prayers but there are other Muslims who wear different clothes depending on their nationality and and have a public expression of their faith and then they would say joining a Muslim social group or political group so if you were a Muslim person who it didn't like what the FBI was doing to Muslims and you were began protesting them that would be a step at an example of further radicalization and basically glee with the radicalization model does is it tells the FBI investigators who to go after because finding the handful of terrorists is very hard but finding people who wear must address or go to mosque or join a Muslim social or political group is very easy and often? They're in especially activist. Groups are encouraging other people to come so it's very easy to infiltrate those groups. It's very easy to monitor those groups and it's at the same time the F. B. I. Was and this is the same radicalization theory that was used to justify the palmer raids where mostly eastern Near Eastern European Italian in immigrants were rounded up by the hundreds and thousands and deported it was the same theory that justified the the movement from looking at Communist to looking at Socialists and civil rights activists in one thousand nine hundred sixty so when I heard this language being brought back particularly because in the nineteen seventies seventies eighties and nineties we had done a lot of terrorism studies. We knew that this theory made no sense that there was no mental defect or or cause and in fact I think part part of the reason they brought up radicalization was because it's untested you can only find it. After somebody has committed a terrorist act you can go back and find find some indication of some step along the pathway so it's very much polluted with confirmation bias and at the the same time they're adopting this radicalization theory. They've resurrected this other language from the the hoover era where they authorized disruption activities and the idea was where you can't prove somebody's terrorist you can still disrupt their activities using other means and those can be going going in interviewing their boss and telling their boss that they think you're a terrorist so they get fired or their their landlord or taking all these other measures including using informants to coerce them into some kind of illegal act so is there a way maybe not predicting who's going to become a you know a violent terrorist but then is there well observed pathway to becoming a terrorist. No there isn't an right and unfortunately when people fear some new threat it drives this very black and white thinking and one of the new threats rats combines with another threat which is the fear of new technologies so these two things get married up that oh my gosh terrorists are using the Internet at which is true but so are we right now so we're plumbers so our electricity thirty much everybody but the FBI they were really slow to with the technology exactly so so. It's this false connection that oh it's the technology that's neighboring terrorism some where if you look over time there was much more terrorism the United States in the nineteen seventies than there is today or over the last fifteen years so it's not actually actually verifiable with data but if the way you framed the terrorist problem as the spread of these radical ideas than the Internet that is terrifying it can spread ideas very quickly over a very broad area and if that's the identified problem the solution becomes obvious. CBS This solution is suppressing that discussion or surveilling it completely and secretly which we've certainly heard a lot about right past few years exactly in the is it the case then that terrorist groups are terrorist activities and terrorist conspiracies and plans ultimately get disrupted by kind of old you you know gum shoe leather wearing out leather police work most of the real plots. That's the case and it's frustrating as well because many of the plots that are real plots by real people who are intending to do harm that are successful. There are often these reports the people have reported these people but what happens is when you create a see something say something program. A lot of people are reporting stuff all day long long so I I always like to fire alarms rate if we go out in the hallway and pull a fire alarm. There's no fire we get in trouble. That's that's actually a criminal act because we know that that that will dull the response to the fire department but if you out on the subway it says see something say something and so people are always sending these false alarms so the real problems get get lost in it. I think I think what are the keys to understand a and and that would be a far better prevention model is to focus on criminality right that that we have this situation where half of the violent crime in this country now goes unsolved including forty percent of the murders. That's sixty five to seven thousand sixty five hundred to seven thousand is in homicides a year go unsolved and tens of thousands of rapes go unsolved and yet they're rape kits sitting on the shelves of crime labs untested and and if we work on solving those crimes what we're GonNa do is disrupt the criminal networks that these ideological players might you'll be able to get their illegal weapons from could you you know thinking about people who've made credible you know important reports to the FBI I within the FBI one of the chilling factors on it. You know it's kind of hard to remember nine. Eleven is eighteen years ago. You know it's Kinda getting long in the tooth and we keep keep forgetting about right but you talk about how people in Minneapolis. FBI agents in Minneapolis in August of two thousand one had the WHO the Guy who became known as the twentieth hijacker they had him they had his laptop and they were petitioning the FBI. I mean they were. FBI agent say say hey let us searches computer. Let let us searches laptop rehearse that story and how that kind of in many ways just exemplifies some of the problems going on and it continuing to go on an American intelligence and law enforcement sure so so some agents working on counter-terrorism got a call from a a flight school who had an unusual character who who was visiting from a foreign country it was acting strangely was is paying in cash sorta thing that maybe there's something there maybe there hasn't they go to check it out and they find out he's not eligible under the visa. He's there to be taking classes acids so there's an immigration issue so they'll enforce that law but then they found his behavior Wiz even more odd there were some knives and there was talk of a hand to hand combat and things like that and it sort of seemed a little more strange so they tried to continue the investigation by searching his laptop which they were working and and this is part people don't really understand international terrorism worked as an intelligence matter not as a criminal matter so they're on the intelligence side of the FBI so rather than seeking a criminal search weren't which later a one of the federal prosecutor said that when they heard the presentation they thought there was substantial probable cause to get a criminal warrant and would have applied for it if asked but instead they go through the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act which is one court in Washington. DC and there's a bottleneck they're not just because there's just one court art but because headquarters supervisors control access to that court and these supervisors didn't had had a fraught relationship with that office in those agents and so were denying them wouldn't even let them go to the court it wasn't at the court ever turn them down and Morton ever got a request for for the search warrant and even though there was ample information that the agents were providing through their continuing investigation but later we found out that they had other avenues of information that were coming in dead linked this particular person with with foreign terrorist groups and therefore should have justified going to the Fisa court it was interesting because after nine eleven these supervisors were were hauled before the Judiciary Committee and not one of them could adequately explain the legal standard for getting a foreign intelligence around smart and the and then you talk about I guess it was Robert Muller as well at the time testifying before Congress and and in the Court of Public opinion saying you know this all came out of the blue. Do we have any good leads. We didn't have any inkling that nine eleven was going to happen and that's just simply not true at absolutely not true at and the the salary case in Minnesota was just one avenue there was also an agent in New York who who was who had found out with the hijackers had come to the United States because he had accidentally only seen a piece of classified information that came through the CIA and he demanded to know what what was being done about this and they said that's not your business. You don't have have the right clearance and he sent an email saying people will die because of this decision. I hope you'll stand by it then so there were agents who who knew there was another agent at Phoenix who who sent a memo to headquarters saying there's something going on with Al Qaeda and aviation you know none of them were were here. Here are the nineteen hijackers that under about to come but there was enough evidence to justify further investigation and rather than acknowledging that and acknowledging that the problems that allowed nine nine eleven to occur were management of information problems rather than a lack of information the again the policy goals of the government were or to expand. FBI and that's exactly what happened. After nine eleven what's Patriot Act where it was like well what we need to do is get rid of any perceived the barriers to various intelligence agencies or law enforcement agencies doing whatever they want under whatever pretext they right but but when your problem is the management of information getting a whole lot more of it than kind of make them Bateyev anything is going to be worse right so so then part three of your book is is titled Disrupting Democratic Controls and and focuses on abuses of power by the executive branch here including the use of torture as word of the war on terror. Are you know in in this case or in talking about part three and talking about disrupting democratic controls them by that you mean the kind of oversight and restraint on government manpower where did the FBI go raw won it in moving hall of Zaza heads into that intelligent side of the FBI if you look look through history the more effective side of the FBI and as we started this conversation the FBI does do good work that mostly occurs on that criminal justice side where the public can actually see it and have their trust in institutions reinforced when they move into this more secretive world it gets a lot murkier and the ability veto engage in abuse goes way up and particularly where the information being provided to Congress and the courts is an one hundred percent accurate and so it's hard to identify these problems and the problems mushroom much like the individual case I was involved in it. I it was the accident illegally record tape and then it was covering up the fact that there was tape and then it was covering up to cover up with white out and it just keeps growing in in a problem and you're not actually getting solved that original problem so this secrecy prevents Congress really understanding what the problems are within the FBI. I and it perfect example is the increased use of the Patriot Act authorities the increased use of this foreign intelligence surveillance court where we only find doubt a dozen years later when NSA contractor comes out with a lot of the information about how the government had been interpreting indies laws including was called section two fifteen of the Patriot Act that that allowed Justice Department interpreted to allow them to just to collect metadata from all all our calls all our telephone calls wholesale irregular rotating basis and the representative sensenbrenner her who was the father of the Patriot Act later said he had no idea it was being interpreted that broadly and was very angry about it so if if Congress doesn't understand and how the government is terminating laws they passed our ability as citizens who are electing representative to Congress to change that is is significantly defintely distorted and we also found out because of Edward Snowden they started releasing some foreign intelligence surveillance court opinions before that none had ever been released uh-huh and what we see time and time again is that the agencies were misleading the court about both the scope of what they were doing but also so whether it was helpful or not I mean we only find out thirteen years later that this power that has been invading our privacy of all Americans for more than a dozen years was never helpful actually stopping a terrorist plot and this is also building on you know thinking back with a longer view even before nine eleven I mean the nineties indies the FBI in particular had a series of catastrophic actions. Whether it was you know the raid on Randy Weaver Rahab at the white separatist to was goaded into selling a bunch of sod offshore and other early launch okay so you know in that which led to really a catastrophic showdown which in turn also helped kind of Foment Waco right and the branch Davidians which then led an it's not like it causes this is but then you know that is a way station to the Oklahoma City bombing etc and you get this radicalization of nutjob right wing thing you know white separatist partly because the FBI is playing such a murky game with due process or being public about their screw ups right right and and both of those were inherited problems right it was the US Marshall Service regionally got an a shootout with the weavers and the F. B. I had to go in and handle it made a bad situation worse and then with that sad waco alcohol tobacco and Firearms but certainly the FBI contributed to it but worse again for for the destruction of democratic controls is how they resisted the congressional and Judicial Shaw Investigations into what they had done so you have this law enforcement agency. That's actually subverting the law by withholding records and providing false information rather added an coming clean and admitting error and part three bench and also you know that there's bizarre disparate treatment of people so you you mentioned that when Roger Clemens the right eventual one assumes the eventual hall of Fame Baseball Pitcher who was testifying about at lying about using steroids and other kinds of performance enhancing drugs while playing baseball not exactly clear why Congress was involved in talked to him about any of that or why he was stupid enough to national pastime I guess so right but but then you so you have him and he gets he gets charged with perjury for lying before for Congress whereas James Clapper who's the director of National Intelligence who outright lied about the surveillance like mass surveillance knock you know at admitting admitting he lied to Congress not getting any kind of sanction really right and that was a repeated behavior go through a number of times that that the information formation congress was given was turns out to be false in the end and it just shows how the selective use of those authorities again breaks down and public confidence in the trust of this organization as a law enforcement agency that is looking equally at all of us and instead is protecting its own and whether that's the the later investigations of detainee abuse that came up with no criminal charges is against anybody even though we have. I think it's about one hundred people were killed during interrogation so you'd think it wouldn't be hard to find violations in fact. FBI agents in the field were struggling because they weren't given any instructions from headquarters and some of them were were saying you know I'm going to arrest this person and tell me what to do and the answer was well. Just get out of there with an agent saw bank robbery going down saying okay just don't don't participate in the bank robbery just leave that would be kind of odd right and then there were agents in Guantanamo who actually wrote a prosecutor memo. This is how we can prosecute these crimes and yet there is a in action by headquarters in at one point an instruction to get rid of what they've been keeping as a war crimes file so by failing to uphold the rule of law first and foremost and instead protect the intelligence elegance agencies they were becoming part of this us where the rest of them and they're protecting themselves against the American public so that that's a good segue into talking about the reforms in the final section of your buck you you talk about okay. What can we do about this? discuss your basic you know what you think are the top things that should be done to reform the situation so first and foremost who are the reforms that were instituted after previous eras a a errors of abuse which had some effect again. I think law enforcement a democratic society is inherently fraught and it's never going to be an agency that you can just close the door behind and say go do good things but having strong guidelines find that protect people's privacy and civil rights and give them the authority to use the very significant investigative tools we give them to go after powerful but CASS I mean I obviously yes right but then you know even mentioning five courts which are themselves broadly seen are often seen as kind of a rubber-stamp stamper abuse very low bar for right law enforcement or intelligence to go through that itself is a product of the Church Commission right and you know in the Rockefeller Kefauver Commission I guess but you know these mid seventies reforms when you know when we were talking about Cowan tell pro where it came out you know totally by accident because it was a bunch ship of all people like academics who went on Fourth of July weekend broken to media Pennsylvania a small town an FBI agent and cart right carded out a bunch of stuff that showed you know hoover's. FBI was doing stuff like you know go get tormenting the actress Jean Sebert race and as too cozy cozy with the Black Panthers. I mean like it people couldn't believe what the FBI was doing in the name of protecting domestic tranquillity but we went through Oh all of them and here we are back at exactly the same place with even bigger programs right even bigger problems with tools are much stronger and I think the advantage we have now is we know the tools that weren't as effective and certainly the Pfizer court is something worth looking at that this was something that was supposed is to be a bulwark that ad actually acted as an enabler for a lot of these more abusive practices so now that we have some more transparency and we can the ad that works but and you talk about one of the kind of reforms or or kind of bulwarks against this as popular resistance to FBI abuses so part of this is I mean snowden was kind of doing it from the inside but stuff like that and then that becoming more widely discussed he's got a book coming out straights hopefully that will help right kind of carry his message as well as other and I document many. FBI whistle blowers and others who who have come forward board with information about malpractice in the FBI again often at their own peril and I talked to as many agents who aren't willing to be named in a book or have their story recounted so there are people out there doing that work internally and we have to have strong whistleblower laws to protect them. Hey It's interesting that Adam Schiff had recently criticised that office of the Director of National Intelligence just yesterday I think where under under the intelligence community whistleblower act. You're supposed to report it to the Inspector General F. Inspector General Finds Merit in it he sends to the Oh deny there's merit in this he should be allowed to go to Congress and the Odeon I controls that door and apparently there's a whistleblower complaint that he is not that the I G has has verified ride but he's not the director of national intelligence is not allowing him to go to Congress him. Were and Adam Schiff is complaining about this as the Chairman Airman of the Intelligence Committee but you need to change that law why why do we allow the person who could be most exposed by the misconduct right the the gatekeeper to our elected representatives knowing what's going on in this body that has such power you also talked about ending racial profiling discuss that because this again this goes back to that question of like well it just seems like common sense that if all of the you know the all of the nine eleven hijackers acker were Moslem you know then all future things are gonNA be obvious Muslims and that leads to maybe technically not racial profiling wiling but a theological profiling or something and and you white convincing in the book where he showed that first off there is Ben a long history at Leeds. It's dating back to the seventies of saying racial profiling is a bad practice and it doesn't yield good results how to how do we get that message through once and for all and I thank you do it through a very clear ban the Ashcroft Attorney General Ashcroft issued a ban in two thousand and three that included a loophole for national no security and border integrity cases and the FBI is is the premier law enforcement agencies so when the FBI is saying to state and local law enforcement agencies you should never use racial profiling because it's ineffective and counterproductive and alienates the communities you need to work with but we're going to use it or your most important cases it sends the exact opposite message. It sends the message that this is political correctness and we really think it does work and that's why we retain it for our most most important cases but what we see time and time again is that the threats that are on the horizon are the ones that are missed because we're playing these profiling games and what we know from all kinds of different violent acts including terrorism is that there is no profile there is no pattern they come from. Everyone and the last thing we want to do is have all our focus in one area when a threat comes from a different area and in the first place it in the second place there are are a lot of people who are Muslim. There are a lot of people even who have what what the government might call a radical belief but there's only a handful of them doing harm so if we're wasting resources targeting people just because they fit the profile where blinding ourselves to the people who are a real threat. I mean one of the things I found working undercover with Neo Nazis there were certainly people there who who understood the ideology and could spout it somewhat reasonably but most of the people there like to make bombs uh-huh they really liked traffic weapons and they liked feeling part of a group that could go out and beat up other groups that they didn't like Mike and if you ask them to spell Adolf Hitler they wouldn't be able to write it so this idea that it's a we create these patterns and profiles else that aren't reflecting reality in the first place in the second place if we if we look at this from a broader scope and look at this as violence violence problem most of the violence that that is going unsolved happens in the communities that are being targeted by white supremacists so you're uh-huh fabric in the book that you know and you hear this a lot of white supremacists motivated violence is is the largest domestic terror terror threat right Eboni. I call it the grotesque scorecard this idea that okay we're gonNA keep count of how many people Muslims kill how many people white people kill because it's it's not really reflective of reality but unfortunately that's the that's what's being done so it sort of have to play that game to at least show even playing that game these groups are are are much more consistently violent in the United States than others just because there's much more of them but you a white supremacist group loop that is aligned with a Klu Klux Klan faction that believes they're the Christian Knights defending southern honor is very different from a Neo Nazi eighty group in Portland that is eight theistic and thinks all religion is there to suppress white power. They aren't really the the same group they're they're different things and then what should be the focuses how violent they are right. The focus should be on time focusing on organized groups because obviously we know because of the weapons that are available today the ammunition it's available just one person who doesn't have avenue associates can do a lot of damage but when we're talking about terrorism I think people are more concerned about Oklahoma City where mass casualties can it can be and that could have been a whole lot worse nine eleven those sorts of things so if we look at it as an organized activity that can be broken down that will suppress the mass the violence and then just work everything else just like other violent crime in tandem with those one of one of the other reforms that you put forward and in the look is increasing. FBI diversity staff diversity what's going on there because I mean one of the things that is pretty amazing as you talk about how essentially there are fewer kind of ethnic racial minorities now in the FBI than there were at various points in the path rate. It was interesting it hoover was inveterate racist and wouldn't allow lack agents or female agents or allow very few of them when he died and I I was he you know it's the the one thing I guess that you can say about Jagger Hoover is that he probably wasn't a cross dresser. There's actually yeah no right contemporaneous evidence for that in reverse reports come at after he died in there right linked to a kind of you know third tier British journalists who making making stuff up right but that's about the best you can say is that you know hoover did not have a closet full of black cocktail dress like everything else about him. He's as bad or worse versus. You can imagine yes and no I mean on the one hand he he was really the father of professional enforce he created scientific methods in law enforcement and forensic science going back to the fingerprint in ballistics and things like that he certainly built a professional law enforcement agency either one the trust of the government. I mean one of the things that's interesting is he was typically more popular than any president so the part of the reason the presence couldn't couldn't get rid of him wasn't because they liked him was because he was more popular and they wouldn't survive getting rid of him so I I don't think he was entirely a monster room but he was just a partly product of his time and given unchecked power right and that always muzzy seized on check yeah right right so right yeah I remember reading in one biography and early biography of him shortly after he died that he lived in Bethesda Maryland and he hated cutting his grass so he astroturf his yard which I would have thought if I was the neighbor of the head of the FBI and suddenly he shows up with ASTROTURF. Something's off if you were forget about his relationship with Clyde Tolson but to go back to this question of racial diversity and hoover was was a racist hoover was very slow or obstinate in bringing in different types of people. What is the benefit you know from a law enforcement point point of view of having a racially ethnically and gender diverse workforce? Well certainly if if any law enforcement agency is that that is evidence based needs to have a variety of perspectives in order to understand the information they're getting and determine its its veracity and reliability so having a diverse workforce is key to effectively want worst meant particularly when you're policing diverse communities and understanding standing what might be harmful to that community something as simple as you know one of the issues lately has been that the FBI designated Jug lows potential fans of the Insane Clown Posse Ray Vac car wrapped career and you know who who had a diverse musical collection could set you know maybe this isn't the group we need to worry about right so but but particularly okay where there is this tendency to target communities broadly that is part of the FBI's history that having people within the agency who can say no and would feel comfortable standing up and saying no and like I said I document a couple of them but they're very lonely. It's easy to marginalize them when when there's not a diverse work what what is going on though in the twenty first century because you know this isn't the fifties or sixties and every FBI director since hoover has publicly said you know one of our goals is to increase the diversity of the workforce so what's going on that it's actually becoming coming more kind of monoculture. I think fear one of the things that the intelligence community became very good at was amplifying fear and using using that public fear to justify greater powers and usually we think of it is the terrorist job to create fear in the public and that's their goal but the intelligence intelligence agencies end up benefiting from that fear as well so they're very happy to to amplify that too and they're plenty of fear studies that show that people become very black and white in their thinking and very us and them in their thinking and if your job is to be afraid of what you might be missing that changes your opinion of others as well and you become increasingly suspicious of people who aren't like you and particularly particularly in the FBI where the they have a very long and arduous background. Check looking at somebody who might have you know gotten gotten a little bit of trouble at her college. FRAT party is something that most agents could say okay. That's something I get it. I come from that culture but getting in trouble in some street fight in a bad neighborhood. That's really hard for me to understand. That sounds like it's gang related that something I don't have familiarity with got so it's easy to even though the crimes may be exactly the same and both low level misdemeanors they would it'd be looked at very differently and particularly when it comes to this black box they call the polygraph the amount of power that we give those agents to make those determinations it got that as reviewable yeah that is one of the weirdest aspects of your book the reliance on polygraphs which are just garbage to begin with right you document in case after case where people basically get cashiered from the agency because of bad polygraph results like I mean. How do you know who in the right mind? I I mean are people. Do they actually believe in the polygraph or are they you know this is a weapon that I can use against people it's interesting because on the on the criminal justice side of the FBI at least the people I worked we all viewed it as a trick it was it was a tool to convince somebody that I knew something that they didn't know and they're therefore lying to me is futile but I can tell when you're lying but on the intelligence side of the FBI that has long been tool that they give some credence to and I think the people a polygraph training is very extensive and it's it takes a long time and I think part of it does indoctrinate them to believe that the machine has some value you but studies have repeatedly shown that its value is really just in coercing confessions here were coming to a close but here's a kind of off beat question you know that the FBI among other things has had ongoing kind of representations in American popular culture and and it goes up and down but I you know I saw the Quentin Tarantino movie once upon a time in Hollywood where one of the main characters does a guest spot on the long on running show. FBI The which was this high water mark of just showing great agents constantly busting criminal activity and etc getting their white white shirt dirt of course yeah right at I mean it's kind of treated as a joke because we all know the. FBI is unlike that more recently the Netflix show mind hunter talks talks about the people at the Behavioral Crimes Unit. you know the profiler who find serial killers. That's kind of an upbeat thing. Is You know it's part of the problem that the FBI FBI has been able to kind of project this angelic vision of itself in American pop culture has that kind of come to an end you think it you know I think the pop culture part it is mixed right I mean you see so many where the the hero of the movie or the local police and the FBI Doofus who who doesn't understand what's going on but his from there was there must have been a long period in seventies cinnamon TV where you know the the cops were always bad and not just incompetent evil and the higher up you go so I'm sure the every agent was great so I'm more concerned about that when it comes to journalism because the FBI is a story producer right every day they have agents out on the street doing incredible cases then bad guys and everything you wanted to juicy journalistic story so journalists who cover that beat are risk of being captured because if they write critically of the FBI over and over again pretty soon they're not the ones getting those stories and I you know I've had many any instances where journalists that I've been talking to say that they have been overtly warned by the FBI officials that they're talking to that that if if you write this story away we don't like we'll never give you a story again. Whenever cooperate with US variation on access journalism leads to old Poncho but again you know it it cuts down on the Public Accountability of Public Agency that is supposed to be protecting us as a final comment to you know when you look back you talk a bit about your biography in this book and obviously wrote a memoir before you went to law school school and you wanted to be an FBI agent who have any regrets about that and how optimistic are you that real reform will come to the FBI when I was leaving the FBI had a close friend kind of a mentor who who is trying to talk me out of leaving and I said you know if if somebody had told only from day one you're going to have a twenty five year career and you're going to work good cases but not cutting edge cases and have a nice retirement airman or you can work sixteen years and have these incredible experiences working this cutting edge work but you're going to have to leave unhappy a happy and and go do something else I would have picked ladder anti no doubt about it and you know I I feel very fortunate that I found into place at the ACLU that allowed me to use that experience to would I think is a positive mission? You know I know a lot of whistle blowers ars who don't have that opportunity and end up in a much worse place so I think I think the FBI changed more than I did and and I do think that there is an opportunity for reform and I think you see the book comes out at a very interesting moment where the Republicans Republicans who had been staunch defenders the FBI are now somewhat more skeptical of it and while the people who had been skeptical of it or now champions bazaar and you mentioned one of the things in the book you mentioned how Charles Grassley the see conservative Republican from Iowa senator had always been a pretty staunch critic of the FBI and and and his his investigators were were excellent at getting information out that I mean in Mike as it took him for years to get out the information but ultimately got it so at least the truth is out there so I mean but you're saying that things are shaking up a little bet so that the possibility of something new right and and hopefully win the the divisive political moment recedes that that will have cooler heads on both asides that realized there needs to be a bipartisan examination of how does agencies using its which is what happened in the mid seventy s right. I mean that was it's like Kinda fascinating. Let everybody was like holy cow. This is really screwed up and I think we're getting to that moment and you know whether we we spent seventy billion dollars a year on this intelligence apparatus that somehow didn't see a foreign hostile foreign government coming in and monkeying with our election election and whether you think that had an actual effect or didn't have an actual effect it certainly has produced an effect because we've had these ongoing investigations and it's been completely disruptive so that's what it was supposed to protect us from well. We're going to leave it there. We have been talking with Mike German. He is a former. FBI agent WHO's now with the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University. His new book is disrupt discredit and divide how the new FBI damages democracy Mike thanks for talking. This has been the reason podcasts. I've been your host Nicholas be pleased subscribe to set apple at Google at spotify at soundcloud cloud reason dot com or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for

FBI United States Congress government FBI Academy People Express ACLU Institute for Justice Justice Department Jagger Hoover Mike German White Supremacist Movement attorney New York City executive Palmer
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Podcast Generator Demo

03:58 min | 3 months ago

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"I'm Guy Mountain can think of into a habit attack. Omar night took title. And not you most. I can make one. I come up at the Komo like doc the FBI era.

Guy Mountain Komo Omar FBI
Richard Burr: Senate intelligence chief steps down for FBI probe

Audioburst Editors Picks Feed

01:20 min | 2 months ago

Richard Burr: Senate intelligence chief steps down for FBI probe

"Embattled Senator Richard. Burr is stepping down as chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. His decision comes after a dramatic new. Turn in the federal probe of the North Carolina Republican's personal stock trades. Here's CBS's Jack. Plays North Carolina senator. Richard Burr was on the run today from reporters at all what happened last night in a stunning move. Fbi agents went to burs home last night and seized his cellphone now evidence in a federal investigation of whether the senator used information from confidential briefings on the corona virus when he sold off as much as one point seven million dollars in stocks on February sediments. Borough that the country was better prepared than ever before the deal with the virus. Six days later he made thirty three individual transactions including hotel stocks which would be hit by the virus. Is brother-in-law sold stocks? The same day one week later the market plummeted. L. Serious is this for the senator. He is all kinds of trouble. He's now struggling not just for his political life but for his liberty for his stress that he is cooperating with the FBI.

Richard Burr senator Senator Richard North Carolina FBI Senate Intelligence Committee chairman CBS seven million dollars Six days one week
China-linked hackers are targeting US coronavirus vaccine research, FBI warns

Audioburst Editors Picks Feed

00:25 sec | 2 months ago

China-linked hackers are targeting US coronavirus vaccine research, FBI warns

"The FBI and the Department of Homeland Security Cyber Division warning that hackers backed by the Chinese government maybe attempting to steal the work of researchers dealing with a response to the current virus pandemic the two agencies issued a public service announcement of the potential threats. Today comes amid heightened tensions between the two countries over the source of the outbreak and China's response.

Department of Homeland Securit FBI Chinese government China
Should I sell in eBay or should I sell on Amazon?

A to Z Formula

00:59 sec | 1 year ago

Should I sell in eBay or should I sell on Amazon?

"So let's go through the questions. First question. I have is. Should I sell on EBay out will should I sell Amazon. Well, that's a great question. The answer for me to general as to advise you guys to do both. I want you to sell on EBay, and I want you to sell on Amazon remember Amazon will ship you goods directly to the custody than EBay customer, if they're shop by Cosmo whatever they are Amazon. We'll take care of it for us. And he's very very awesome. They do with the FBI, and you can have some common vile few insure from Sherifi, and then you can ship directly to them from Amazon and give it shit who it is you're shipping to or you're selling to.

Amazon EBay FBI Cosmo Sherifi
Weekly Update --- How Expansive Is FBI Spying?

Ron Paul Liberty Report

04:28 min | 7 months ago

Weekly Update --- How Expansive Is FBI Spying?

"Hello everybody and thank you for tuning into the weekly report. How expansive is. FBI SPYING CATO institute. Research Fellow Patrick. Eddington recently filed several freedom of information requests to find out if the Federal Bureau of Investigation ever conducted surveillance of several organizations dealing with government policy including my campaign for liberty based on the FBI's Response Campaign for liberty and other organizations including the Cato Institute. And the reason foundation may have been and subjected to FBI surveillance or other data collection. I say may have been because the FBI gave Mr Eddington. Earning ten a glow mar response to his F. O. A. Requests Pertaining to these organization a glow mar responses. We're an agency says. They need to confirm nor deny involvements. In a particular activity Lamar was a salvage ship. The Central Intelligent Agency used to recover sunken Soviet summary in the nineteen seventies in response to an F. O.. A request by Rolling Stones magazine the CIA claim that just confirming or denying the involvement in the salvage operation would somehow damaged Mitch National Security. A federal court agreed with the agency giving federal bureaucrats and even local police departments a new way to avoid loyd giving direct answers the glow mar response means these organizations may have been and may still be subjected to federal surveillance surveillance. As Mr Pennington told reason magazine. We know of a fact that Glue Mar invocations have been used to conceal real actual ongoing activities and we also know that they're not passing out. Lamar's like candy protecting the right of individuals to join together in groups to influence government policy is at the very heart of the First Amendment therefore the FBI subjecting subjecting such groups to surveillance can violate the constitutional rights of everyone involved with the groups. The FBI has a long history of targeting Americans whose political beliefs and activities threaten the FBI is power or the power of influential politicians. Then then Dame Bureau of Investigation participated in the crackdown on people suspected of being communists in the post World War. One Red scare the anticommunist. Crackdown was headed by a young agent. Name J. Edgar Hoover who went onto become FBI director a position Russian. He held until his death hoover cap and expanded his power by using the FBI to collect blackmail material on people including politicians Titians in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties the FBI spied on supporters of the America first movement including including several Congress members. Two of the most famous examples of FBI targeting individuals based on their political activities are the harassment of Martin. Luther King and the CO INTEL PRO program co Intel pro was an organized effort to spy on and actively disrupt subversive organization including anti war groups co Intel pro officially and in the one thousand nine hundred seventy s however the FBI still targets individuals and organizations it considers subversive including antiwar groups and Dan citizen militias. Congress must hold hearings to determine if the FBI is currently using unconstitutional methods to monitor any any organizations based on their believes. Congress must then take whatever steps necessary to ensure that no Americans are ever again. Dan Targeted for surveillance because of their political beliefs and activities. Thanks for listening.

FBI Central Intelligent Agency Mr Eddington CATO institute Lamar Congress reason magazine J. Edgar Hoover Dame Bureau of Investigation Mr Pennington Intel Dan Targeted Research Fellow CIA Rolling Stones Luther King loyd
The Horowitz Report on the FBI and its Consequences

WSJ Opinion: Potomac Watch

24:15 min | 8 months ago

The Horowitz Report on the FBI and its Consequences

"From the opinion pages of the Wall Street Journal this is Potomac Watch a trail of abuse at the FBI. I but no evidence of political bias. That's the factual finding of Justice Department. Inspector General Michael Horowitz in his long awaited report on the FBI FBI investigation into the trump presidential campaign and the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court plus Democrats decide on two articles of impeachment different against Donald Trump. Welcome Paul Zhigo with the Wall Street Journal here with my esteemed colleagues Kim Strassel. Hello Kim all and Bill mcgurn I I Bill Hi Paul. So let's So the Horowitz report which we have long been waiting on finally comes out and It is almost five hundred pages So we are just getting our arms around it but had have had a chance to dig into substantial chunks of it in some detail and I have to say Kim. I have looked at a lot of inspector general's Reports inspectors general reports in my time. And I never expected to see one that would lay out so many details about abuse of power. You're an abuse of process and deceit and deception at an agency like the FBI. Now I guess that's might have been naive We L. Remember J. Edgar Hoover but this was supposed to be the new. FBI were none of that. Happened and Ignore the top line and for a second about political bias. The inspector general said he found no documentary or specific evidence about bias but The the process mistakes and the the violations of I think good order and integrity the at the FBI in the secret process of getting a warrant on a price. A member of the presidential campaign is shocking to me. And maybe I don't know am I wrong. No it is shocking and I prefer the word violations to process fouls because process says fouls make it sound as though everyone was simply sloppy. When you look at the pattern of what the inspector general laid out here and again this report port? Yes written very much as an report which means it's fairly anodyne bland language but every line in that report has meaning and what it shows. Is this pattern of F. B. I.. Agents senior leadership again and again providing information and to the FIS accord that was wrong That was overstated. That was incorrect That excluding exculpatory Gopal Tori evidence. And this is this is like a huge no no because remember the Fisa court deals with the FBI in an expert fashion meaning the FBI is the only person that goes in front of the court. There's no competing pleader and so the FBI at the Pfizer Court Rep relies on the FBI to be scrupulously accurate in what it presents in deciding whether or not the court is going to issue a warrant to do one of the more severe things in this country which is to serve Vail. An American citizen sent and in this case the F. B. I. Again and again deceived the court and there needs to be consequences for that. No fewer than seven airs end omissions found in the original application to surveilled Carter Page in two thousand sixteen and in the three successive ones bill. Ten more more these are minor errors. Omissions are fundamental the credibility of the steele dossier which formed the basis for the Fiso warrant. Orange right each each one of these things is is kind of its own story. I mean just the two that struck me is that You know there was that footnote saying I think that the steele dossier was funded by. It was very vague. Had some political had some political. It was very vague but that only was in there because of the objections from Justice Department of fish haven't Stewart right who thought that They were in real trouble using this This partisan information so one little footnote which itself was misleading did tell you the whole story And the other one is just buttress. Your Point Bill. The only reason it was in there was right it was not in there because of the FBI and then The other thing that really struck me is the one where the FBI lawyer falsified email he went to the CIA and basically asked for confirmation. Was Carter headquartered page work for you and got back an email saying he was a source and this guy forward it to his supervisor at the FBI Any altered the e mail to say Carter Page was not a source. The the reason that's important is because if Carter page had worked for the CIA in a good capacity and they were happy with them as the CIA reported that would count in his favor. So this guy falsified thing to help get a signature. I think I was on the third renewal the FIS of so they're all these really really iffy things and again the the You know we have our issues with five quarts in general but but a judge in addition to there being no counter case being made. The judge is totally reliant on this and and Director Komi seemed to take the position that you didn't have to verify every fact in there you could just say wow crystals a good guy and we've used them before so we're we're confident this which which of course turned out to be misplaced just to elaborate on the Carter Pages Association with the CIA. Horowitz doesn't confirm that it's a CIA but paid said it was from two thousand eight to two thousand and thirteen Carter page with his Russian. Various Russian context was reporting on those Russian contacts to America's intelligence service the CIA in good order he was an operational operational. Contact as as Horowitz refers to them and they were happy with this product. Okay so think about this. So Carter page is is working for servings countries or for providing good information about his contacts with Russia then the FBI in two thousand sixteen says. Wait a minute you have these Russian contacts and we are going to use those Russian contacts as evidence to have a warrant to present you as a foreigner as a foreign agent probable causes is that you are a foreign agent working for the Russian government. Well wait a minute just a bit ago. He was working for the US government so and then for the FBI not to take time to basically say. We're not gonNA tell the FIS accord we're making our case for probable. Cause of the is an agent that he used to work for the Chinese for the CIA. That's what an emiss- omission. And it just say Carter page is sort of interesting. Just this guy was watched and listen to for almost a year all sorts of different interactions the FBI and he was never charged. He's one of the few people to emerge from. This never charged with anything. Well he was kind of a a the first of all us a low level advisor Kim and A kind of a hapless soul. He's not a this this. This is not James Bond and And and to portray him In this fashion strikes me as just another example in which the FBI to demonstrate the degree to which the FBI was really hell bent on on getting this warrant on him and investigating the trump campaign and watch this space. Because I am convinced that as we get further information about this and in particular when we get the report from attorney John Durham that. We're GONNA find out that paid was really central to the FBI's whole beginning interest in the trump campaign One of the things that comes out in this report didn't get much attention yesterday. As Loretta Lynch confirmed to the I G Comi of all people pulled her aside all the way back in the spring of 2016 and said Yeah we've got is on Carter Page and page asked been announced as a member of the trump campaign and he'd been on the FBI radar screen in the past but as we just explained he'd also been in good standing with another agency. What was the FBI doing focusing on hand? That early and everything. I think there's still a lot more to come on this story. All right. We're talking. About the Michael Horowitz report the Inspector Director General Reporting you're listening to Potomac Watch from the Wall Street Journal from Connecticut to California for Mississippi to Minnesota millions of American can businesses are using google tools to grow online the grow with Google Initiative supports small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops ops and one on one coaching in all fifty states helping businesses get online connect with new customers and work. More productively learn more at Google dot com slash grow. That's Google dot com slash grow from the opinion pages ages at the Wall Street Journal. This is Potomac Watch. Welcome back. I'm Paul Zhigo with Bill. mcgurn and Kim Strassel. We're talking. About the Michael Horowitz Inspector General nor report on the FBI and the trump campaign in two thousand sixteen and let's focus on the The judgment of the Inspector General that there was justified level of predication As he called it Kim For him to for the FBI to start that Investigation Gatien and July twenty sixteen against the the trump campaign But he also said there was a low threshold of that the F. B. I.. Had to cross in order to start such a thing and then we have Both William Bar the attorney general. John Doerr you're on his his appointee the US attorney who is also investigating these matters from a criminal point of view. Disagreeing publicly with the Horowitz conclusion about Whether the predication was justified or not does this What what do you make of of the Durham and bar interventions? Well look I think again. This gets into how to read and report and what's really important. Britain is at the very beginning of this report. HORWITZ goes out of his way to say. Look one of the. Here's one of the things we didn't do in this report which is that? We didn't second. I Guess People's discretionary judgments in the course of an investigation and that was goes to this question of this threshold in which he said. Look there's a really really low threshold for starting an investigation and anything basically the FBI has a lot of power To Tacoma Line and old statement you know the FBI can investigate the making of a ham sandwich if it wants to And in that regard on the basis this low threshold they had the right to start this investigation They had adequate credit quit. Now I think what Durham statement embar statement was is just because you have the power to do. Something thing doesn't mean that it was appropriate to do so on and I think that that's what we're going to get from Durham. As more information that's going to inform peoples judgment about whether or not there really really was an honest to goodness good reason for going forward with such a then what was an enormous instantly high level investigation Hint from Durham in particular that He has been talking to sources Both in the US and abroad and he has has led him to conclude that The disagree with Horowitz on some fundamental matters which suggests bill that this story is not over and and We may end up finding more about the The origin story. Here than Mr Horowitz In good faith was able to turn up your yeah. I think that's important to Kim mentioned in the beginning. You know. Kind of the disclaimers. One of the disclaimers it should be on. It is by by necessity and incomplete investigation and For two reasons one his scope is only the Justice Department right so it can't deal with the CIA or other things that he's inspector general for the Justice Department and second even within that scope. If you had left the Justice Department you didn't have to cooperate. There are a lot of people that didn't talk and so forth so it was very limited We're as Mr Durham has grand jury subpoenas and he can do all sorts of things and it runs much larder so I think that this is by no means into over. There's a lot of questions the way I sum it up is I think Steel play the FBI with his dossier that they used and we now know they really use it. It wasn't just a little minor thing was a big part of the five central and essential. That horrible always used so so he played the FBI by getting that in their through various Various means and then the FBI played the courts by taking the selective parts at wanted and omitting exculpatory information or other information and I mean this is kind of how in abuse snowballs. Let's talk about that in a little bit more detail Kim because it relates to the point that the inspector general made that he found no evidence of political bias motivating The FBI actors in this case. He says that they acted on On on what they thought or matters of principle and government policy but of course Just because you didn't find The let's get trump memo Doesn't mean that they're somehow there weren't partisan there wasn't a certain partisanship that flowed through this process process. And here's why I say that because we know from the report at the steele dossier was central to the triggering of the Pfizer court warrants. That steele dossier started with financing dancing by the Clinton campaign of an opposition research firm fusion. GPS which then hired Christopher Steele to get this information. Most of it. We now know false. And then that was channeled by Bruce or of the relatively senior member of the Justice Department whose wife worked for fusion. GPS into the FBI and then through the FBI to the defies a court so you can make of what you will about the partisan trajectory of that but it does suggest that somebody we we knew we know that steel and fusion GPS and the Clinton campaign very much wanted. Donald Trump defeated absolutely. I mean in that regard. The origins of this investigation in our supremely supremely partisan or at least the origins of these is a warrants. And let's be clear. Mister Horowitz in his report port says indeed he did not find any documentary evidence but he does not shy away. He's got a whole section as report pointing out that there was certainly demonstrations considerations of bias in a private capacity by FBI actors and he lists with some great length some of the emails that went back and forth between between FBI agent Peter Struck and FBI lawyer Lisa page immediately after the opening of the FBI. Investigation into trump. And it certainly certainly doesn't look as those. Those two people were operating without some sort of bias. But I think the more important thing again. This is an idea report it given that he did not find documentary. Evidence of bias He can hardly just guests at the motivations of F. B. I. Employees so what he instead does just lay out these facts and when you see so many of these facts again and again and again and they all go the same direction they all go in the direction of the FBI abusing its powers in order to go after the trump campaign that creates a pattern. I think is very difficult for Americans to close an eye to in suggests that there wasn't some sort of bias or at least institutional disdain for Donald Trump. That drove this bill. The The other issue that this triggers for me it concerns the entire FIS a process which was established in the nineteen seventies Ironically enough in the wake of the previous FBI BI abuses. The idea was created article. Institution the Pfizer Court Composed of article three judges not of the executive executive branch. Who would that give their say? So when the executive branch wanted to get warrants for intelligence purposes on American citizens sounds like. Well it's just like a normal court order but of course the problem is that these are all secret and these are article three judges. Who really don't have a lot of expertise on foreign policy or on intelligence and the objection that we raised at the time was is that far from ensuring accountability it would in fact undermine count ability because the executive branch and the F. B. I. Going to seek a warrant would say if if they had abused that authority? Hey the court approved it in here. You have a case where they deceive the court and they got approval and then they use the court's approval to say nothing wrong. And that's exactly what James Comey now is saying nothing wrong absolutely very Paul. Just one last thing on the bias Kim's right he what he said was actually fairly narrow. I didn't find evidence that a discretionary choice was. But you know some of the evidence for for that is how different investigations were treated. Could you look at the Hillary Clinton investigation all these immunity deals and say that Hurley Clinton's people were really treated did the same way. Donald Trump's people were treated and then I would go into the investigation into Dianne Feinstein. I believe who had a was a Chinese spy on her staff and they told her to do in that there are other measures. I think the jury is still out on that one. It's hard to believe it had no. You can say there was a legitimate reason for everything thing they did but it it kind of beggars belief you think they should have told Donald Trump. Yes I think that would be. I think that's actually. The Standard Procedure is is my guest to to try to get them on guide. Well so there's a section on this in the report and basically and it's it's it's very on persuasive serve now. The I G finds it. No policy was violated because there is not in fact an official FBI policy about defensive briefings. But he did ask a senior senior leadership there and the answer he got back was well. Because we didn't know who on the trump campaign might be colluding with the Russians. We were worried that if we alerted anybody that would cause that person to switch up their tactics and cover up what they did now. Okay I I understand the point about the vagueness of the allegation but seriously you're saying that you couldn't go to former. US Attorney Chris Christie who was an advisor to the campaign Or Jeff Sessions. who was a sitting sitting us? Senator you're worried that even they were colluding with Russia it. It's sort of beggar's police well. But the candidate himself unless you thought that he was a Manchurian in candidate and employees of Vladimir Putin in some way. Wouldn't you want to tell him. Hey you know you might have somebody here who's who's went also record it it contradicts or other students. 'CAUSE at the same time they were presenting to court. The Carter page is probably a Russian agent. And they they they were thinking about other visor warrants that would have to maintain the same charge against other people Like Paul Manafort and so forth on the court itself the journalists journalists opposes gloriously in my view in seventy nine when he came making exactly the points you make an if if these cases go to court to the F. B. I.. Agents agents that that gave gave this goes to court. They're going to say judge signed. We gave them what they needed to know. And the judge makes it if the judge need more information mation. She should've asked us or he should've asked us. I think there were four. Different judges for the Carter page warrant so it dilutes the responsibility I mean. By contrast contrast Jagger Hoover sought permission to wiretap Martin Luther King and it came from Bobby Kennedy we know then general then attorney general we know where the buck stops on those on that on that question in this is GonNa be all fuzzy there and actually until now that's been the The Defense Oh the court looked at this accord has to look at it in the point is the judges. Don't have any this two points. Judges don't have any particular expertise on this issue to sort through these things and the judge is is not part of the executive branch so again it just dilutes the the authority now. I would go further under the separation of powers and under separation of powers I would go further the new palm against Pfizer Court against independent counsels against inspectors general for the same reason so Shammai world a little simpler. Now I guess it too but we were they exist. Deliver them art so Just briefly before we go. Let's talk about the fact that the House Democrats have now accepted publicly. They're going to introduce two articles of impeachment one on abuse of power as they describe. It are related to the president's behavior towards The Ukrainian Leeann president and the phone call and elsewhere and and then obstruction of Congress for Posing there subpoenas and resisting in In in blocking the testimony of key advisers and document production. Both of those are going to be voted on judiciary committee as early as This week With a vote on the House floor next week I guess Kim briefly it looks to me like They really the decided to make slimmed-down impeachment and They want to get this over with as quickly as possible. Yeah they're doing this on on behalf of their more moderate members who were pushing back against the idea of a vast array of articles of impeachment. Some that might even stretch back back to the Miller report Those moderates wanted very Well narrow a narrow grounds and then vaguely worded so obstruction. In which by the way this is this is odd congresses and white houses have fights all the time over documents and witness production. These are normally settled by courts sports. This would be the first time that we're turning such thing into an impeachable offense. And then rather anything specific like bribery or extortion or quid pro quo or are any of the legal terms that we have heard of the last few months This vague abuse of power Charge which is nothing defined in statute and very much in the eye of the holder. We will Elaborate on this tomorrow when we finally do see. The exact text of the impeachment articles does. But thank you. Kim Thank you bill. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back tomorrow with another addition of Potomac Watch.

FBI Inspector General Michael Horo Kim Strassel Carter Donald Trump Pfizer Court CIA Potomac Watch John Durham Wall Street Journal Horowitz Justice Department executive attorney Paul Zhigo Christopher Steele US J. Edgar Hoover Federal Intelligence Surveilla
Dana Ridenour from FBI Undercover Agent to Author

Unstructured Interviews

1:06:06 hr | 5 months ago

Dana Ridenour from FBI Undercover Agent to Author

"Today as a record this is march fifteenth and that is the two year anniversary of unstructured. This also is episode two hundred so it's a pretty exciting time. I WanNa thank you so much for tuning into this episode and hope that you will find many others in the catalog and please stay tuned to the end where I'll be shouting out so folks that have just been incredible friends to me personally in show now. Today's guest Dana Ridenour Dana is a former FBI undercover operative and she infiltrated groups like the animal liberation. Front she's now an award winning author and this is a fantastic interview discussing how to establish a legend live undercover. And I think you'll really enjoy it. Also I have a livestream where I have former guests of unstructured available for you to ask questions. And I'm happy to announce Dana will make herself available on April sixteenth. So please subscribe to the livestream. That youtube dot com slash Eric. Unle see you can hear it when it happens. I have many other people including two other. Fbi agents coming on. But for today I present to you. Dana Ridenour my name is Eric. And this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people eighteen. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me Eric. I'm looking forward to the interview. Oh not as much as me. I'm really excited because you did something. That is utterly fascinating. The idea of living another life and I've had other guests. Who have done this as well. And it's just something that's really hard to fathom. We watch a lot of TV seal out of movies but there's gotta be some really deep psychological work that has to be done in order to accomplish this other. You're exactly right when you work. The long-term undercover it takes a huge psychological toll on the agent and if whether it's the loneliness the isolation it just you at the end of the case you come out completely different person sometimes good and sometimes for the bad but You're definitely not the same person at the end of it. Depending on the length of time the cases I worked for long-term Mike. Three and four years at a time which is interesting because I've also interviewed Bob. Hamer who did undercover work and I think you may have crossed paths. I don't know if you know each other you both worked out of the L. A. Office okay and I think you overlapped. I think he was in the early eighties. Okay let's see when I was in. La was to thousands. I think I think that's when he was there too but one difference at least what I perceive as he would work three undercover assignments at the same time. Sometimes I did that early on to until I got into the long term stuff okay well. The long-term sounds closer to lay undercover. Kgb Guy of all things right yes. It's a very similar and it's weird because you're obviously doing two four our government but I guess he was doing for his government. I mean both our patriotic. And that's what I think is fascinating. I'm not judging anybody doing anything. Especially when it's for their country. Well it's you give up you basically give up your life when you're going to do the full time undercover and you can't have your ties to your family your your friends. Nobody can know where you are what you're doing so it is a commitment. It's a it's a very deep commitment that you make that you feel strongly about or you wouldn't do it. I mean at least my opinion I felt strongly about my job the cases and the case agents and I had a lot of confidence in the case agents. And that's why I basically gave up for years of being me and taking over this whole different alias So that's the reason I did is I felt. I felt confident in the case. Agent what he was doing well. Let's go kill week. Can we break that down? I would love to hear what exactly happened. Like you know as many details as you can share obviously some things maybe trade secrets but how. How did you come across getting the job? I know that you went to an undercover scolding. Talk about that a little but then actually becoming the other person. Wh What are the steps? What did you do? It was actually kind of funny because my supervisor came to me one day and said I saw the perfect assignment for you. That should have been my cue to run but he said look. We need an agent that looks younger than the age. That could kind of take on this whole hippie persona live in a commune become Vegan and quite honestly Eddie Note. A Vegan was back then so I started researching and he. He wanted somebody to go undercover in the earth. Liberation Animal Liberation Realm and so they needed an agent who has preferably single. Didn't have kids that sort of thing and who could take on this whole different persona so I said it sounded like a good challenge. How Fun going to California for a number of years and so I kind of took it on and in doing so I had to become that person which means I had to learn all about the activists lifestyle. I had to learn about veganism. And it's not just a way of eating. It's a whole way of life so I had to learn about the ideology and what I had changed. Everything had to you know you can't wear leather. You can't eat meat. Not even honey so I was. I had changed what I my look what I would eat. Howard think how talk how would act. I had to change everything to become this person. And veganism thing. I'm thinking about I talk to you beforehand on the interview and I called you. What were you doing at the time? I'm sure I was eating something fishing fishing our the pets that I get the impression that you're you happy a big HABITA- fishing I do. I'm obsessed I'm addicted fishing effect by polls over waiting for me. You know when we get finished here he resigned. I figured that you were like God. I wish this interview could be earlier once I retired. I just I don't know I just started fishing and now I can't stop. That's I'm guessing. You're no longer a Vegan. I have no longer Vegan and a lot of seafood beforehand. I was not to begin beforehand. Now nope that actually to me is one of the roughest parts in my mind to think about is to just it. It changes your diet but that also will change your hormones chemical. Oh it changes every trolling. And that's why when I was preparing for the case I became Vegan. A good amount of time before I ever got California probably close to a year because your body changes your body chemistry changes and you don't feel too great at first and then you go through your body just has to transition over from you know all the pollutants and the meat. I was putting in IT TO FRUIT AND VEGETABLES. I've heard to maybe a minor thing but like Asians Taco about or have talked about stinky. Americans actually will smell different because of your diet. The the activist climb to. They claim that I could never personally tell that mainly because a lot of people I run around with weren't using deodorant either so natural natural. But that's that's what I've heard too. I didn't notice a difference in Smell but but for undercover. You have to do that. Complete twenty four seven because what if they could smell right right and they would come over to my apartment and I couldn't have anything in the refrigerator and my apartment had to be completely clean so they would go and you know get a get a soda or something out of their frigerator and you know it had to be all the stuff in there fruits vegetables it have a packet eggs or milk in there so You know I really had to live the lifestyle. Plus you never know when somebody's watching you even a city the size of La you go to a cafe. You don't know who's around that I mean we live in a big world but in a way it's pretty small too. Oh Yeah Bob. Aamer actually talked about that too right when he was about to do. A payoff drop a couple from his hometown. Happened to be Come into that hotel. I know that that happened to me a couple times stare. Oh really wow wow okay. Well we've got him. Put a pin in that. We'll try to revisit that unless I forget but you established before you even started on day one on the job. You're doing prep work for a month at a time. That's correct okay. And you change your Diet and then you said you went into studying the activism. Now where were you studying? Were you like reading bulletin boards and the like or were you reading actual FBI? Until well? Before I ever got there I was living down in the Virgin Islands. That's where I was assigned at so I was Li I was reading the FBI Bulla. Tens of course The Intel Bulletins. That were coming out about the domestic terrorists and the the groups but I was also reading books written by activists and I was reading Free the animals and all of the the activism books that every activists Kinda reads as they become Into that way of life I learned more probably from that kind of stuff than I did the FBI. Until so you know okay. I I'm asking that because I'M GONNA keep reaching back because I think it's always cool to compare previous guests and things like that but Bob Hamer at talked about how he had to be extremely careful because being in the FBI you have more information about these people and things going on then fill in the blank your character so if you were in conversation to reveal information or or no too much that could be potentially dangerous better damn is absolutely correct and that's one of the things I actually didn't WanNa know a lot of stuff I would tell the case agent. Sometimes you know. Don't don't tell me that I don't need to know that just yet you know and then sometimes I would have the information but that was something that had to be very. Cognizant of is not exposing that I had information that nobody else would have so I kind of always played. I mean I hate to use the term but I always kinda played the dumb blonde. Yeah I went with it and I let the activist teach me and I always pretended to know a lot less than what I did know because I figured by doing so I was less apt to trip over my own. Two feet so That's why I just went in with. I'm new to this. I'm new to this lifestyle. Teach me helped me. Show me how to do this That way if I made a mistake to I could always fall back on new to this lifestyle. Sorry surprised how well that works. And I also have a lot of people who do influence and things like that and negotiation and it sounds like you probably have studied some of these techniques Cher Cher and the best way to become interesting as to be interested in the other person. So if you were always asking them how then they would put you under their wing and he would just become their best friend much more quickly right because the worst undercover is the when the undercovers on the tape. And that's all you hear. Is the cover talking talking talking? You don't ever hear the subject so the targets talking the worst undercover somebody with a big mouth you will you want an end uncovered to be quiet and listen and ask a few questions but to mostly you. Let the let the target stock. Because that's where you're gaining your your evidence in your information from. Is that something that you went over in the undercover training? It was it was that was one of the things we learn how to do but mostly it was learning to adapt adapt overcome deal with sleep deprivation because a lot of undercover work. He you don't really control the hours so you may be up two or three days at a time. And that's when you get a little vulnerable because you're tired and you know you open your mouth to say something and you don't really know what's GonNa come out so part of the undercover school. Was that to finding out if the agents that were wanted to be. Undercovers could actually do it. Can you stand up to three or four days of sleep deprivation and think on your feet still? It was a lot of that kind of thing I was. In the Armenian we had something called sear school which I don't remember what is busy. Essentially a hostage skull or being captured school when they would capture and train people. Fortunately I didn't go through it but it was. You know borderline torture scene. Would you talk? What are you going to give up things like that? Is that some of the training. You guys were doing well. It wasn't as much being tortured but it was. It was a it was a two week school without any breaks at all. You didn't get time off and you were averaging about an hour and a half to two hours of sleep night so you are exhausted by the end of week. Two and you do scenario after scenario after scenario where you didn't have any notice you might have fifteen minutes to prepare and get into character at. You might go from drug scenario where you're buying drugs or selling drugs into of a white. Supremacist I mean it. Was everything up in the air at it was just a crazy. Two weeks at the end of the two weeks about half of the class washed out. Okay I I was wondering was like steel school or something on that really torture. It was more mental torture than anything that would be huge though and that brings me back to another question Hamer. He did the multiple cases but one thing he started to do. He didn't do it early on but I think he does. Did it. Through his career he always went by Bob. That's his first name and that would be the first name that he used for his character. And did you did? I was wondering if you were always Dana. Yes because you've you've loved that name your whole life if somebody yells out patty. I'm GONNA keep walking. I'M NOT GONNA turn around so especially when you're tired. Yes unless you have a really unique name that would be an FBI files or someone could find it just about all the undercovers use their first name and the more common the better right yes. Excellent okay so then you did the training and now did you kind of get pick for that job. I think you did a little undercover before you even do the training. I did in the FBI. If you're going to do anything long term you have to go through the undercover school. But if you're going to do a few little short things the special agent charge can give you special permission to work undercover. And that's what I was doing before I in fact my very first undercover mission was for the. Da they had a physician whose trading drugs for sex and. They didn't have any women. I was in mobile. Alabama is my first office and DA didn't have any women in their office a they called over and ask if they could borrow female so I get the first undercover assignment because I was a young looking female and that was it. I was addicted after that it was an adrenaline rush and a lot of fun and I found my calling at that point. That's awesome and this is a sidetrack but I'm wondering if it's similar I've you'll be my ninth. Fbi agent and I'm interviewing. Yes of those two are women. Is that representative of the overall? Fbi or is there a lot more women than I think? That's probably true. I think the last time I checked I think thirteen percent. Maybe were women. So it's a very low average is about run against out of nine would be okay. I don't think it's changed much and all the years. I think it was probably about ten percent when I came in ninety five so I think it's about thirteen percent now. It's it's not changed too much so it's probably a great opportunity. It is and it's a great career for women. I think a lot of women are kind of scared of law enforcement in general. Because they're afraid. Oh Gosh I'm not going to be able to get married or have kids and That's not the case at all. I mean it depends on what you are now. I love your undercover. You will have you know I was on a drug squad and we worked crazy hours and gangs but if you work say white collar crime or something like that. You're working during the day banker's hours and talking to businessmen things like that so depends on what you work in the FBI did being a young attractive female work to your advantage where people wouldn't immediately suspect or pick up on you being. I always said that women make good undercovers because men will discount you. I mean It's just a fact of life. A woman can walk into a restaurant and may be observed observe for a different reason. A guy walks in and the and the bad guys initially drawn to him thinking cop cop cop but a woman walks then orders. Cup of coffee sits in the corner and nobody will notice. I actually recorded a drug deal when I was in the Virgin Islands sitting at the table. Next to where the drug deal was going on it was picnic table situation. I had a paperback book. I have my bathing suit on and baseball CAP. And I sat right there with the recorder and recorded the whole drug deal and I was probably seven feet from him and they didn't pay attention at all to me. That makes me laugh. That makes me think of the southern aristocracy. How they would just completely forget about the staff or the British royalty or whatever that the staff is just invisible right that they're like furniture and it works to your advantage though you know if you can walk-in I've always said to. It's good to have women on the squads because a a man and a woman can walk in same situation walk into a restaurant and nobody notices them. They'll sit down and you can. They can watch do surveillance whereas two guys walk in and the instantly you're thinking what are they law enforcement so. I think it's always nice to have women on the squads and then I think women do make good undercover agents. I bought a lot of drugs and sold a lot of drugs and nobody paid any mind because he was five foot two female. You know I couldn't hurt anybody right. What do you do in? I don't know if you've gone into this before. But it's a genuine question because drug dealers by nature can be suspicious types. Ha What about when they say? I want you to sample now. I want you to use. Now what does an agent do well with me? I always went in with the I was told him I was a business woman. And I don't sample my product because when you start using that's when your prophet way down because you get hooked on drugs and I always said I'm a business person. I don't use that Shit. And that's that's what I went with so they bought it. Yeah it's it's just how you kind of build up your character before you go in. And I wasn't afraid to walk away if they if they were going to press it then I was GonNa take my money and go elsewhere just like a normal person would and if the deal gotTA deal didn't go in if they were legitimate and I mean they were going to. They would come back to me eventually. I wanted to look as realistic as possible. Okay so you're What you call it your cover your story your background. We called the legend. And that's and the legend was. You had to know your legend just like you did your real life. You had to know your Mom's name and Your Dad's name where you were born where you went to school and because there's a credit history that went with all the stuff too. So if they were smart they had a Pi. I follow you or something like that. They'd probably have access to all that. So if they ask you about say living in Louisville Kentucky when you're in college and you said I never lived in Louisville Kentucky. Well you just messed up. Because they have a credit history that showed you lived in Louisville Kentucky during that period of time so that a lot of the groups did hire private investigators. Or I think it'd be smart and so on that. I've I've had somebody else on Abbey Ellen. Who wrote a book called Dupe? Dennis about competence men be up. Her fiance duped her. But it sounds like you do something very similar in the sense that most skilled con people and Liars Tell Ninety Percent Truth. And it's only that little niggle that night that ten percent that makes all the difference in the world but almost everything else. Yeah lines up like your parents. First names might be the same. That's exactly I tried to keep my undercover life so close to my real life like I had. I have one sister in real life so I had one sister my undercover life. Same type thing. The only thing was when I was the undercover. That was hard will it's the. Fbi made me ten years younger than what? I was so that I had to go back. Because you know when you're in high school and College Jesus is the big thing and you remember the band pop. Culture Girl of the eighties will now suddenly. I'm the girl of the nineties and I didn't even pay attention music in the nineties so I had to start listening to the ninety s music and find out who is who is popular when I was supposedly was in high school and that was a little bit of a rich through my fascinating social study like what would translate over like if you're a fan of this band AIDS in Highschool. You probably be a fan of this other band in the ninety s depending on your click or group in which you hang well to to cover myself on that too. I have one sister in real life and she's younger than me but my undercover life made ones. I had one sister who was older than me. So what I did was in case you know. I got hooked on something eighties and they were looking at me like well. You were young when that song came out. I could say oh man. My sister was a huge Duran. Duran fan or something you know. I had something to fall back on the older sister. That's smart as hell and thinking about my sister seven years older than I am and I got into all of her albums. Yeah my little sister. Did all that to me. So I just reversed it. I would have done the same thing to her. Is Building that legend. Half the fun. It's fun but it. It's very stressful. I mean you have to really make sure this is something you can live with and I used to practice it on airplanes before I'd ever put it into use like if I was traveling. The people are not always. GonNa ask you. What do you do and so I would go into my legend and then that way if they can give me a look about well. How did that work? I realized something didn't work better to mess up on some stranger on an airplane than in real life so I would practice it and I got to where I would get. I had a ritual. I would get in the shower every morning when I get ready and I would go over my legend top to bottom my social security number my date of birth where. I was born my mom's name my dad's name what my dad did for a living and this would be my morning ritual. I would have this in my head because the bad guys may not even ask you about it right away but eventually it's GonNa come. They're gonna ask you when in fact what I was working with my boyfriend at the time. Who's now husband? We were doing a case together. We've been undercover. Probably close to two years and then a subject came to our house that night and started. Just slamming us for questions you know. Well where did you work when you lived in Florida? Wanted to do. And if we hadn't spent the last two years kind of doing that and and drilling each other on on our legend we could have been in trouble because two years. You can kind of forget everything you put into place two years earlier so yeah. I I lived in died by legend. In fact I knew my legend so well. The my case agent brought me a document one day to sign. I signed it and he looked at me. 'cause I can't believe you did that. I said what he did. You sign your undercover name to an official. Fbi DOCUMENT NOW. Have to go back to office and get another one as well. Why didn't you bring to? That's actually great though because that means you're defaulting to that yes which probably kept you alive. Yes and not only. Did I keep the first name? I kept initials. Because you know how you start to sign a document you just start signing so fast. I wanted the same initials. I've always kind of used my middle initial with things that if I got Dana. Her I could be sloppy. Okay yeah so that would work for me. Yes you can barely even read these on the first name. That's what I'll say. I'm training to be a secret. Not that I'm lazy and sloppy. Did you also have a multi salon? Last name rhymed almost or Santa Similar. Dave sound kind of similar yes. It sounded similar again with that ninety percent or made my undercover last name more common so if they did start looking at that you know there's just more beyond that's perfect to actually that's what busted on Jack Barsky. Yeah he he came here and he was so perfectly and he actually had quit the KGB and have been living his life just as a family person. Normal job Executive in tech firm and like ten years later One of the high level. Kgb people defected with a bunch of information and some of that information was you have a mole here or you know this Guy Check. Barsky who died in fifty five. I mean it was a kit and that was his name. What guess what. Jack Barsky is not a really common name now. They looked and they said hey. Here's this Jack Barsky here and then the FBI literally moved next door to him found out so that right there if he was Jack Williams He would have been a lot harder to find. They never would've figured it'd be like L. Never especially that definitely. So that's that's really fascinating that you went that way. So if they were searching they would wind up getting things confused anyway. At which one is it? Wait she this one or that one and you could kind of squeaky around. Yeah and when I was doing a lot of the the the quick hits Where I was doing multiple cases at once I actually had multiple. Aliases and I found. That was harder juggling who I was versus long term stuff. And there's one time I was in an airport and I was walking through the airport. I had no idea where it was it just. I had been traveling so much in using so many different. Aliases that I had to stop. And I went up to one of the monitors and saw Miami International Airport. I was like okay. That's where I'm at but that that's when it gets dangerous to and you start doing too much undercover work that I prefer the long term stuff. I'm one alias. I'm one person and I can really dive into that persona and I don't have to juggle. That's interesting Bob Hamer actually went the other way. He had one alias and was in multiple assignments and I guess the thing. Is it running a warehouse where people sell cigarettes and liking children and being a pedophile could all coexist at the same time right and the stuff is a lot of stuff? I was doing really couldn't yeah I was out on the East Coast. Ryan drugs are I was someplace else selling drugs and then that didn't really go with the whole Earth Liberation Animal Liberation to this dress did they overused potentially because you're such a rarity being a female undercover that's undercover as a volunteer Ver- voluntary situation. You have to volunteer for the problem is most agents enjoy it and will not Sino so then it kind of falls back in the agent to know when you've done too much but in my situation I probably did do too much. I'll be honest The last time I did close to seven years in the this haram out in California did a four year assignment took a little time off and then came back into the three year assignment and then I went back to. I got transferred to Florida. I was still doing drug cases and I I was probably doing too much of it. And when the transfer happened from California to Florida. We kind of fell through the system with the the safeguard assessment. Which is the psychological stuff and instead of going through the proper safeguarding. We kind of got both of us were thrown back on just squads working squads and that was that was kind of bad and in the long run that did a little bit a psychological damage that Took me a while to unravel. I wanted to ask you about that because that was something that went over with Jack Barsky. He talked about an. I'm probably saying it wrong. So hopefully audience was since the interview to get exact but he went through and still suffers today in almost split personality problem and maybe his exacerbated because of the dual languages being born of a whole nother different culture different language Cetera but he was commenting that he wished that there was a skilled therapist. That could help him work through these issues. Did you have an opportunity to get therapy or anything to Kinda help? You regain grounding or is it possible while the bureau does have a really good program And it came about after the Donnie. Brasco if you've seen the movie. Donnie BRASCO were Joe. Histone was undercover with the Mafia after the FBI realize what kind of psychological toll it took on him. They established a unit. That all undercovers have to go through. You do psychological testing you meet with a counselor. You'll meet with an experienced undercover agent. Who's done a lot of work and it gives you an opportunity to talk things through an also gives them an opportunity to look for if you're going off the rails and you need to be pulled in so if if it's used properly then it's a great system why happened to as ours was just you know. Transfer happened and we just fell through the cracks. Now what I should have done as I could have requested that I could have said. Hey you know I think I need to talk to somebody. I WanNa go to Virginia. I need to talk to somebody to safeguard and they would've sent me. There is no doubt that they would have said sure What happened was I got back and I still had the anarchist attitude. I still felt like a bad guy. I had a badge gun again but I still felt like bad guy and started doing things that were out of character for me mouthing off to my supervisor and getting up in his face and and I had a supervisor that for the first time in my career that I didn't really get along with didn't see eye to high with and he and I had some run INS and after a while it was actually him that discovered that I was still living this whole undercover life. I had this whole you know messed up thing going in my head and he was the one that said you need to start acting the contagion you need to come back to your roots need to think about who you are. No longer an anarchist. You're not running around with these people you're an FBI agent at. I actually chose to go back to Quantico at that point he asked what I wanted to do and I said I wanted to go back to quantico and I wanted to. Volunteer is a counselor and take a classroom and which was unusual. Because that's an assignment. Nobody wants because you have to live in the dorm for five months with the class and said once agents for just like I don't WanNa give give up five months of my life to go live in Virginia but that's kind of one I wanted to do and he let me do it. And it was the best thing I ever did because it really did get me back to the fidelity bravery integrity why became an FBI agent. It was just a positive experience. The motivation was there for all the new agents. And so I kind of worked my self through it. I guess that was my way of fixing myself after team taught before similar thing. I'm sure that as you counseled other people you would see things in yourself ago. Oh wait and you know the self-discovery you learn so much when you teach because you then have to explain whatever principle it is and then finally go. Oh I didn't completely understand what it is. I was teaching until now that I have to exactly regurgitated or digested and SURPA Coutts. That's that's fascinating and it sounds like a supervisor. You didn't get along with him but was a good influence on you in the end it was. I mean he really was like. I said we didn't get along very well at first and I probably was a thorny inside but in the end he did the right thing and because he did do the right thing that made me a whole different person. When I retired I retired. Happy Content Well adjusted and I wasn't quite frankly when I got to Orlando or I landed on this poor guy squad. I was kind of a of a messed up. I was a mess and so By the time I the last year or so I became myself again. Well in a another reach back Jack. Barsky talked about in the KGB. They assumed a shelf life of an agent of approximately ten years and cover deep undercover before they go native. And I tell you what ten years might even be too long depending on what you're working because I worked at me. It's one thing if you're working the mob drug dealers people who are just kind of nasty people. Sometimes but when you're working the people I was working the activists they're really nice people. I mean right there there at intelligent. They're fun I mean I love animals. I mean that was one of the reasons why was for the assignment. The majority of them are really decent. People there's just this very small group of people that go off the rails and and do the the high level criminal activity but for the most part ninety five percent of the people that I was in contact with. Were really decent nice human beings and so you start to think like an act fast you start to. I mean you're seeing a lot of the propaganda videos and some of it's real some of it's not but she starts to you understand why they think the way they think and Especially that because what a lot of them are fighting. I think is a very real horrible problem. It's the tactics. You have the issue and I thought the I even understand why they resort to the tactics. It's frustration. They tried to do it the right way. They try to change laws. But you and I both know how hard that is and and if it does happen. It's teeny little increments and it takes years to do so. They get frustrated and they burned something down or blow something up to get attention which is wrong but right. It's understandable. Kind of feel like it is a slippery slope with them in a sense that nothing's happening so they push the envelope just a little bit. Yes and they see a reaction in a lot of people think that I dislike the activists and that's not the case at all. I mean I have huge respect for him. I grew up in Kentucky so where I grew up. We didn't really have the whole activism community and so California was such a difference Area the live because activism is such a part of the lifestyle there especially with the young adults and college and it was really cool but had I probably grown up out in California. There's no data. I would have been an activist. I would have been right there along the lines with the people of that. I was now investigating but I have. I have up. Moshe sexy activist. It's just the few small that small percentage that did resort to the illegal activities. And I mean really illegal not glue and Lacson throwing paint I still have no problems with that kind of stuff. Okay so are you kind of half an activist right now I am. I really am I I I have trouble. I do eat a little bit of red meat but very very little. I do see though but I still think about. I still think about it to be honest with you. It's harder for me to enjoy that occasional burger. I have because I do think about The years when I was Vegan and I also I would never ever in my life where for and that has come from the years that I was involved in activism. I didn't understand the fur industry. I didn't understand the atrocities behind it. Now I do. There's different ways to keep warm. You'll never catch me in a fire when I see far. I it just enrages me at that. That was part of living and activists lifestyle Factory Farming. You know is horrible. I mean it's just it's terrible but in the saying is if if slaughter houses had glass we'd all be Vegan and that's true and so you can't help but live that lifestyle for as long as I did and not have some of that rub off and I guess on the back of my last book. I think I put what you pretend to be become and in a way I think part of that is is true. What you pretend to be you become. Hopefully it's the good parts and bad parts and they'll be hard because I'm guessing you establish genuine relationships with them. All the you had a different name you had the feelings you had for some of the people had to be just as real. I did I did. I had one of our targets was she and I were so close up and we are so similar we liked all the same things She was so well read. We could talk books and movies and we went to the movies together. We spend a lot of time together and I read. She and I would probably still be best friends. It turned out. I wasn't an FBI agent. And now she of course hates me but I mean she was a very nice person and we had a good time. And it was. It was legitimately a good time and we went to the movies. We laughed and we cried. And we we we shared of oceans and we shared stories and of course her stories real monroe made up but it was still sharing and That's hard it's hard to leave behind your books. And you've written several now are they? They seem to be autobiographical to a degree. Especially the first one. The first one rally is is part of your intent or is this just a byproduct to reach back to the community like and almost talk to them. Because you can't keep contact with the you're separated. Are you doing that after fashion with your characters in the books expressing yourself in your feelings and maybe they can read them and understand more? Well I I was always careful not to not say anything bad about the activists because of the fact that if they did read on my wanted them to know how I really felt about him and so my activists characters with the exception of course the main characters are always going to have somebody bad but the majority of the peripheral characters are based on real people that had worked and they were good people. Nice people of course changed all the names and stuff but a lot of the personality are there but I think may layer the books As therapy to just get the emotions and the feelings and everything out and get it on paper and then the fact that it was kind of entertaining and it was different than most. Fbi books. I just kind of happened and after I wrote the first book I had such a good time and I didn't WanNa ride the run of the mill. Fbi Book. I mean there's just too many of those out there. If I was GONNA write a book I wanted to write a book. That was factual as far as procedure and things at the FBI would really do. There's just so much crap out there that you read that be. I wouldn't do that. We couldn't get out our mutual friend. Jerry Williams is taking a stand on that and does a great job. Does she's grist. No yes no. Have you thought about writing a memoir? I mean you stories fascinating enough and it would. It would be very interesting because then you could talk directly to things. I get that a lot. I've had a lot of people. Ask Me when I'm writing a memoir. I don't know that I will. I enjoy writing the fiction so much and it's it's just so much fun. I'm not sure that I would have as much fun. Writing a memoir and also with memoir you would have to contact every single agent that you put in the book ask ask permission and things like that and I don't know I I guess mainly because I don't really read memoirs I read fiction so fiction just seem like the route for me to go and I enjoy. It is it. Is it more pleasant to because a memoir is a little on the nose to the point where it's fiction? You have the opportunity to change things that you really would rather gone to another way. That's family terry tip. There's a lot of stuff that I probably don't want out there. That happens so back to the fiction of your legend. Establishing yourself because I don't WanNa leave that behind you went to you studied. You became a Vegan. You read all the literature now to establish yourself did you just move to La. Get an apartment and just start hanging out. How do you feel that? In the two cases it was two different ways the first time. Yes the first time. I was working in northern California. The the case agent didn't have any kind of sources are confidential informants. That didn't have anybody that could do any introductions so basically that's what. They told me they said here. Here's the people were looking at would like for you to get close to them Good luck and so what do you do? This is where it's really interesting because okay plop you get an apartment. Now you have your. I'M GONNA say targets I don't. There's another term. That's exactly right the targets and so I started to I kinda followed him around a little bit to find out where they hung out. Because you've got to make a a meeting. It's gotTa look natural and so. I started going to coffee shops Vegan restaurants in and I did some above ground stuff to like protest if yeah just show up at the protest and hey I just moved here you know looking for France like minded people to hang out with and so that's kind of the first step is find out where these people go where they hang out then you have to make it look like a natural meeting and so I went to even went to an animal rights conference and it was at La and that was great because everybody was basically one huge rooms. I met all kinds of people. A lot of them. Were completely innocent. Weren't doing anything wrong. But still that was a good way to kind of Segue in to the those relationships. Equally important to hang out with the innocent as well as the Target so to make it look real. Yes definitely because I mean if you don't have any friends in the people you hang out with our your targets that looks suspicious. I mean if every time they call you jump and saying Oh yes I can do that I can do that. I mean you have to be seen elsewhere. You have to have a life to talk about other things. Oh you know Joey. I went to see a movie last week. Have you seen our? You know we're thinking about and sometimes just that was a good way of blending in you know you while you were observing them. Did you also observe like who their friends were? And maybe have that as a away again like sometimes if you sort of start talking to a friend you almost get introduced to them out course through the Front. That's that's a great way to do it. Actually and that's the way I would always prefer to do it. And you kind of look for the weak link and I to put it as a weak link. But you'd look for the person who is the easiest to talk to was me. I grew up in the south and if I heard southern accent boy. I was beeline into the southern accent. 'cause southern people like to talk and they like to The friendly usually and they like to introduce you so if I ever heard a southern accent that was the direction I was GonNa go Because I figured that was gonna be an easy person to talk to and get introduced from. That's true and you probably could use that. Because the view of Southerners California One yes others. Aren't that bright. If you ask them you know and and our chatterboxes so you probably. Hi How you doing? I'm bub-bubba Here's the Ruben. Off The truck right but It was great. So that's what I did is I look for. I look for that weak link that person that I thought I could penetrate the fastest and get the most bang for my buck the most introductions from now to have a proper cover I mean. Did you go apply and get a job and work somewhere the first time in my case. I did not The second I was I was kind of a college students has taken classes and I did actually take a night class said so. I was taking guitar lessons. They made me see me running around the campus and I have my guitar slung over my shoulder and say stop talk of where you had an entire lesson so I did normal things like take guitar lessons and took a night class and things like that to Kinda Ville time and to look like a normal person because youth. Ba- look you took advantage without any. Could be a little more irresponsible and it was kind of fun now. The second long-term case that I worked in southern California down. La that was a situation where I can't give away too much information but the FBI sometimes will have what we call storefronts and that's an effort business. It's a it looks like a normal business but it's FBI Ron and Tulsa honeypot. Yes and so. That's that can be seen. Sometimes if that's the case I'm GonNa Guess that some of them are are long established to some of them are so far and so that was the situation is that I had kind of an in there. I had Somebody to do some introductions for May and ahead of job So I but in the other side I had a job which means I worked all day and then Iran and on the weekends and so I was literally working twenty four seven. I mean between the job and running around it was it was exhausting and that was why we needed a second agent in that case and that is where my boyfriend came along and we used him as a second agent mainly to take some of the pressure off. You know one person having to work fulltime and run with targets you could at least split up the work you know and say here. Can you open the store for half a day and take care of this? Get some sleep when actually I would think it would be even stronger but I wanNA compare and contrast a little bit on that because your first time you were completely on your own as you put it. You know you're continuously in the role doing whatever you're going to be doing all the time. How do you sustain yourself? If you're not allowed to talk to your family. I mean. Did you have any contact whatsoever? Very little contact with my family very little. How would you do it? I had a Throwaway phone just a burner phone that I Kevin Hidden and occasionally I would. I would call my mom like once a week and usually go outta town and so wouldn't be overheard and things like that might take that with me and I call her the phone that somewhere completely different so it wasn't even at your place you'd have to go to the phone wherever it will actually had Had A safe that was built into the closet. He couldn't couldn't see elk. I kept it in and kept my real. Id and a few things like that and in the safe in case I needed it. 'cause you know you never know what can happen. How do you cope with that stress? What what were some mechanisms or things that you use? It was very lonely. I had an outstanding contact agent We used to call handlers. But other may term contact agent I had an outstanding contact agent. He was wonderful but he was well known in the animal rights world so to meet with him. I had to go way outside of town. I mean we had to go our outside of town just to be able to sit down and have lunch and and kind of decompress. So it wasn't like pianist could go grab a cup of coffee and talk. If anybody saw us together then it was over but he was very good about being able to at least call me from his undercover lied under my undercover phone and just chat talk and he had kind of tell when I was starting to get really lonely but it is just the fact that laifa my undercover my real birthday rolled around and I remember sitting there on my real birthday with no phone calls nothing to do. Fill and sorry for myself. All only my undercover birthday rolled around all the targets showed up at my house to take me out to dinner and we went partying. So you start to think all these are my real friends you know they really care. Welby at did they did. But you have to kind of stop yourself from thinking well. How far do you take this friendship? He'd you can't. You can't go over to the dark side just because you know you like everybody that you're hanging out with but But it does happen sometimes so in the second case when I had a partner and that was a whole different feel to it. You know you go home at night and you could bounce ideas off each other and you weren't lonely and then he you know occasionally I'd say something and he would laugh and said Julius spoken like a true activists you know and he would catch me what I would start to slide a little bit It's a slippery slope. You just have to be careful. Did he come out a little bit? activity himself A. I'm not sure what you're asking city of. I said you're a half an activist. Another half of an activist and not as much as what? Now probably not. I'm trying to think if he picked up any of the probably now now he was happy to get back to be able to eat as burger all right well. Thirty compartmentalize. Well how do you deal with that? That sense of betrayal. You know I a sensitive person and way more sensitive than most undercover agents. I think I think that was ice. Queer scored really high on the empathy. Part of the psychological 's which is not a good thing for an Undergrad undercover. But I do have a very sensitive nature at an. I am very empathetic so I honestly hurt my feelings. A little bit with they were all you know They dimed us out and they put my face on. The website is a snitch in an agent. And all those all true. It's still Kinda hurt. My legs and I had to tell myself could be ridiculous. You know they're doing what they have to do. That's that's their job. Their jobs are activist. I betrayed them so I shouldn't feel I shouldn't get my feelings hurt because I did the portrayal but it I will be honest. Did it higher feelings a little bit. The do you wish in some ways. You could have half hour hour just to sit down with any of that. You were absolutely closest with and to say look this is made. This is why this is what I the person I was. The closest with probably would not be in the same room with. She was very now she would not even consent to thirty minutes. I did have a situation where I had a fellow email me and it was an ugly email. You know threatening email white. You're in California. Aw Ad I emailed him back. My husband's so mad at me he goes. I can't believe you did that enough. Because of course he found me on my website and everything sure emailed him back and I said look. Nobody went to jail on my watch at less. They were hard core doing stuff for all. I mean blowing things up. Actually I mean I didn't put the people horde and the cats. I didn't put the first people I didn't put any of those. I didn't write reports on any of those people. So if you're an honest activist just doing low level activism stuff as far as you know breaking the law then have at it. I didn't care I was just looking for the people that were doing the the major stuff that the FBI was interested in. So and I told him that I said I was doing my job. You were doing your job you know. And he actually wrote me back. This poor this fella had gone to prison not because of me because of another another agent who put him in prison so he actually done time for arson and he wrote me back and said you know what you're right. You're doing your job and I. I'm not even in the movement anymore. I don't even hang out with activist anymore. I'm going back to school and all that I was thinking. Why are you coming down on Hick but if felt good to just throw my side out there a little bit? You just say you know. Let's talk. Yeah and would I go? He's what I'm eating California for coffee. Oh Hell no you know. There's no and that's where email is probably nice because you can establish a full. I guess skype to or whatever but yeah keep in the distance and with no revealing things behind right. You know because everybody always asked me. Why are you scared? Are you afraid they're going to like come to your house and staff and you know I really not. I mean like I said the majority of people I dealt with were law abiding folks and decent people are not gonNA cut me down. Would I do book tour in end up in La Probably not I mean why. Why poke the bear he? Now because would they hurt me. Probably not with my car. Be on fire when I come out of the arena. Where they're probably so you know so there's no way I'm going to go out there and poke the bear and and and you know there are many keys ready for your vehicle all right well to finish out. I do WanNa hear. You said something a aside. Dimed you out Okay well you mean with the transfer. How he we're emergency transferred? Oh sure yes well we. There was a freedom of information. Act Got a lawyer out in California. Did Freedom of Information Act her about two hundred activist now normally very careful about information they give on open cases which they didn't give any information on the open case however the case I had worked previously in California was closed case and that information went out to the targets and one of the targets who is the closest to who had become very close friends with she read the reports and knew exactly who who was the head made the report. It was single source information. Everything came from me and she knew and she knew I was ally at the time because it's a small. They operate in sales but still a everybody knows everybody in the Movement for the most part so she knew I was in L. A. She picked up a phone. Call Down there and dimed us out and said you have a snitch. I don't know if it's cop but out of its. She's working for the cops but this is who she is and Yeah turned ugly. We were transferred from the West Coast to the east coast. Basically overnight is was that a mistake of the FBI to put because of it being such a tight community. I think it was. I think one. I think it was a mistake but two. I think it was mistake. Pretty much not telling the act of undercover agents that this information had gone out but if you think about it it was probably some you know low level Clark going through documents and she looked up the name cases close and are he. You know an stamped it This is good to go. And you know you can't expect somebody working as As Clark are To understand all these ties I mean as an agent. It took me forever to really understand. How closely knit they were and how close the ties were it's I. I don't know that it was the fault of the person who set out the information. I do blame the FBI for not making that clear that. Hey if it's this number case we need to be extra careful what we send out and that should have been an agent should have been called making that call. Probably not just some spor support person that got stuck with the job or maybe there needs to be more flags on the system. Exactly Yeah I think I think investigators should look at that stuff to versus just a a support person in a wonder if that's even more of a problem now then when you were doing it because I don't think there were facebook at the time or was there there is facebook. I was very careful with facebook because of the facial recognition programs. They're really good now but I didn't have anything in my real name. I didn't have a facebook account or anything stuff in my real name. I did and my undercover name and I was careful but you have to be careful with friends like you go to a party and your friend post a picture and then your failing connects and rising. Now you're in trouble so I was always really careful at. I was told all my friends. Please don't posting pictures of me. You know this well. What about undercover? Because you're doing assignments and you're with a group of one and as you put it there close to each other. They're probably all facebook friends right and each other personnel. When I was working out in California the two big cases that I worked up there I had the same alias. I use the same thing that was what caused it to crumble. But I had to. Because you know you can't work in northern California in the activist community under this name and then come back in southern California under this name. They would have known that right away. Wow it seems like there just weren't enough of you guys now. Why can you need more undercover? Yes would have been at least you could split it up and have one person dropping a dime and you'd be completely innocent of it so then it would be more confusing Figuring out who did what yes incident. I think we used to call him building a wall. Where you'd have and we did that with the informants to head an informant giving really good information. You didn't WANNA burn that. Informa- are put their life in danger than you'd build a wall you maybe have an undercover come in and take that information to go one step further and then another undercover may become in taken one step further so when it did come out in court documents that inform it that was way down the line That was kind of an unimportant part of the of the wheel at that point. And you'd have the agents testified instead of using the end the the confidential informant. That makes us did. Is it possible that maybe the state's attorney is our guest who you don't work with states attorneys federal but? Us attorneys? Did they sometimes a maybe make deals with lower ones to flip in order to not burn the undercover? You know like if all the information is coming from one of the people who was arrested you may be don't know necessarily but the undercover because at persist plan out well normally in most cases yes however with these domestic terrorism With the activist community. They're very hard to flip very hard true believer day. I've seen people go to prison for twenty years. Instead of giving up information be much you'll arrested drug dealer and they'll flip overnight. They'll give you everybody they've ever dealt with. But she feels yet you arrest activists and they won't they believe because it's it's their beliefs there. They truly believe in their movement and they'll go to jail to protect each other which is admirable but it makes it difficult for forsman and they know it they know it makes it difficult for law enforcement. Well they're incentives. I guess are different because they're not really profiting off this. Their intentions are are true. And you're while now that had to be quite head trickery almost prefer going after the drug dealers or whatever because he don't care. Psychologically it was easier off easier will to pull out because I know you have to get fish. What does Dana have coming back? Well I am working on a fourth book. It's not an FBI book though. I've decided that I'm going to leave the series for a little while. Not say that I won't come back to Lexi because I like her. She's a lot of fun to write. But I was ready to veer off and do something different. So I'm right in the fourth book. It has nothing to do with the FBI is not a law enforcement buckets. Basically cross genre a little bit of literary fiction kind of women's fiction and About a group of Friends of a certain age Coming together after a tragedy and kind of reinvent themselves so it's not. Yeah How's it going? It's going pretty well except for the the fishing keeps interfering. You'd have a nice day. It's hard for me not to be out there fish. Are you imagine? The fishing is therapeutic. It is it is and you know I retired from the FBI and launched my first book the same day so I never took a day off. I went from one career straight into a second career. Which looking back hindsight that was kinda crazy. I taken off but I didn't so I really think that this is the first time I've really let my brain rest and and I'm enjoying. I'm enjoying just kind of being on the water and relaxing and not doing anything while some now people can find out more about you and what you're doing it. Dana Ridenour DOT net. That is correct. All right we'll Dana. This has been fantastic. It's been a lot of fun. Eric thank you for having me. Wow wasn't Dana fantastic. I hope you take the opportunity to tune in and ask her questions yourself on the livestream coming up on April sixteenth. But don't wait until then I have Jerry Williams coming up this week and you can ask questions immediately now. I wanted to think a few people who have been just such good friends and really helping out the show. There's old African proverb that if you want to go quickly go alone but if you want to go far go together and I feel that's a special case and these are some of my closest friends and I would like to. I'm limited to ten people and if I leave anybody off. I apologize profusely in advance but Tyson Franklin of it's no secret Joe Pardo of indie podcastone also business a joke. Paro rebranded to dreamers Andy Wong of inspired money Brent Basham of potted dot net. Now I have a real special shadow to Christopher Locke head of follow your different. He has been practically a mentor for me and giving me such wonderful guidance and friendship and I cannot thank him enough Jason Filipo another just incredibly why source of grumpy all geeks. And he is a master producer of incredible amount of shows. That are on the top fifty. Also WanNA think Allen of open mic. We have kind of grown up together on the show. Larry Roberts readily random Randall. Kenneth Jones of Jones dot show is just a great friend to have and last Stephen Veronica Davis of pod. Sound school and oops. I guess I cheated. That's actually eleven people but since they share the same last name. I'm going to call them one. Thank you everyone so much couldn't have done it without you please. Everybody consider checking all their shows and everything. They're doing thanks again.

Fbi FBI Bob Hamer California La Dana Ridenour Dana supervisor Jack Barsky Virgin Islands California Virginia Eric Florida Kgb Guy KGB L. A. Office Mike Eddie Note baseball Dana Ridenour
The FBI Lost Our Son

The Journal.

29:36 min | 10 months ago

The FBI Lost Our Son

"It was early in the morning I was at home and I was awoken by the sound of my phone going off and I picked it up and there was a message on what's up thanks for listening we're off Monday see you on Tuesday billy and not only did he understand languages but he also understood cultures he understood the relation found billy in the middle of a war zone in Ukraine in a grave covered in stab wounds purses and how one reporter found him welcome to the journal our show about money quickly followed up by an email and said we have found William and unfortunately he's dead Terry Riley is Billy's mother and the story of her son starts with an unexpected visit the doorbell ring the FBI agent was there to investigate something alarming he'd found something that traced to billy Riley billy grew up in First Michigan the son of bill and Terry Riley and as a kid billy enjoyed fishing he played baseball he was also eager to learn about the world with Arabic and Russian especially when he was behind a computer Brett forest covers national security he's the reporter who has spent the last two years finding it was the thing I had been hoping for for almost a year at that point but it was also the thing I was dreading Russian and Arabic he started studying Islam and these things seemed very foreign to his midwestern Catholic blue collar parents on can't really William or billy as he was called had gone missing in Twenty fifteen he'd been missing for more than three years by the time our reporter this is a story about a missing person a twenty eight year old man from Michigan named William Riley who've been working with the FBI the message was got those messages over those years billy's parents desperately searched for their son they tried to get the FBI in organization in he preferred to sit with his grandfather in the hotel room listening to the news as billy grew up his interests broadened he taught I don't think he was like the average little kid he was always interested in current affairs we went to Disneyworld instead of wanting to go inches between various groups in the Middle East in Russia in Ukraine in the Far East and he picked up all this stuff just 'cause he was interest I opened the door and there was a man in a suit he flashed his badge and he says I'm with the FBI her home. I dust the business and power I'm Ryan Cam Newton and I'm Caitlyn but it's Friday October Eleventh Asian Billy had been working with to help find him the agency didn't but eventually our reporter did he accident just from the Internet by twenty ten twenty three year old billy used his skills in Arabic and his interest in Islamic culture to go into the today on the show the disappearance of Billy Riley one of the FBI's confidential going on and then shortly after that he said to me you know they gave me a PS word I can get into their chat room I remember him telling me while you know these people are like really bad I am going to try to get into one of their chat rooms and see what's far corners of the web even on the Internet to find out what was going on with the wars with Wi- with al-Qaeda with al Qaeda and all of that and up in the Middle East he asked somebody has been on these al Qaeda websites and has been talking to these people on their front porch came true anyway that F. B. I. Agent who rang the Riley's front doorbell was there because of some messages the US had picked drive and on that hard drive they found communication between members of terror group and a person using the Riley's Ip address that was that was about but I figured L. The boy is going to do what he wants to do he was pretty good and we wanna know what's going on and what went through your mind at that moment when he told you this I remember thinking Oh my gosh you know I mentioned this uh when the FBI showed up billy explained to the agent how he had found his way into restricted jihadists chat rooms the FBI agent via the FBI made billion offer to become part of a program called the confidential human source program confidential sources are not employees of the FBI they're often additional eyes and ears for the agency they help agents get into criminal groups and I remember time you don't do anything like that you know that is really scary stuff we're GONNA HAVE FBI people report This program has been around for decades after nine eleven the number of people who are confidential sources for the F. B. I. reached roughly fifteen thousand it was really impressed with you know what bill didn't what he knew and then he asked me would you be willing to do it collect evidence and they usually get a small paycheck but confidential sources are essentially freelance workers and because of that they don't have the L. E. earlier FBI on the porch. I've never really thought I was going to be regular with that during a raid on al Qaeda US forces found a heart going on he kinda agree with you better not do that is kind of scary Terry's prediction of F. B. I. Agents showing out assignments these assignments can range from meeting with F. B. I. Targets and wearing a wire to translating social media posts infiltrating domestic terror cells legal restrictions or protections that F. B. I. agents do each source gets assigned in FBI handler someone who keeps a close eye on them and dr who started giving out assignments billy did a whole host of things for the FBI he would go online and find things related the terror networks that were were written Arabic and he would assess them and submit these reports handler at the FBI day and night events in Syria as the Arab spring exploded this was when we first started to hear of this new group called Isis he started approaching terror recruiters planners and facilitators outside of the country all over the world not only in the Middle East but in the Far East eastern Ukraine at this time billy had been helping the FBI for four years the F. B. I. Wanted Billy as part of his ongoing duties Blake of Donyetsk at the FBI direction billy started looking into them months later in two thousand fifteen and the FBI denies that it ever even going on missions abroad when Billy agreed to join the program he too was paired with an F. B. I. Hand clearing his men had shot down a plane Russia denies any responsibility people were pointing fingers at a separatist group called the people's basically he was going to be involved in the humanitarian aspect of the people in Donbass and we at long no more than a month or so and so there was no sense his going to Russia had any connection with his work for the FBI so when he told who were joining terror groups and passing those names along he looked at the Boston marathon bombing he looked at the or text them once a day while he was gone which he did right up until June twenty fifth two thousand fifteen we run our bikes and the and who fled to Russia in the fallout Russia invaded Ukraine and an extra region called Crimea pro Russian separatists started seizing territory pins Indonesia et Cetera. It's so wild yeah off from his parents house billy also got an assignment to look into that would really be good for them billy started looking for American citizens display cracked two hundred ninety eight people were aboard that plane the Ukrainian government released an audio recording it claims is a Russian commander that's after the break any work for us and I think it was kind of excitable assure you know and he said well okay give me your email and we'll get back with earning when he didn't call us I knew something I just knew it must have been an eternity the days after that we get phone calls he would get tasks and they would want him to write these long reports and how did you feel about his getting a job with the that was shot down in an area of Ukraine controlled by forces that are loyal to Russia pieces of the plane scattered across the road and field a seat back with its television is literally stimulates the birth of brand new brain cells science best exercise is out September nineteenth listen on spotify or wherever you get you his FBI handler shows up at the Riley's house in Oxford he'd never been there the parents had never met him in despite Terry and bills please in May two thousand fifteen billy got on a plane to Moscow he made one promise to his parents that he would call he comes in the door of course they're thinking something bad has happened to their son you don't stop right after billy disappeared to look into what was happening in Ukraine a plane had been shot down in a pro Russian region of the country called Don boss in the Malaysia Airlines passenger a few months he asked for the laptop and phone that the F. B. I. had given billy and for Billy's phone bill when it arrived but the agent missed one of Billy's phones last time the Terry and bill heard from their son but it would lead to the second time an FBI agent came to their front porch asked billy to do this billy decided that he wanted to get a closer look at what was happening there and so he planned a trip to Russia just over the border that was developing in eastern Ukraine in two thousand fourteen Ukraine was in the midst of a revolution protesters had pushed out the Ukrainian president so the FBI knew that billy was on this trip and those messages showed that they knew about it and that they were not telling the Riley's everything I'm of three different APPS WHATSAPP skype and fiber the handler also asked billy if he had his trip itinerary yet trail you know in our town and remember stopped

billy Riley billy FBI Billy Riley Ukraine Terry Riley William Riley Middle East reporter Russia Ryan Cam Newton Brett forest al-Qaeda US Michigan Syria F. B. I. Agents bill Indonesia
Target USA -- Episode 153: The FBI and the impact of the government shutdown

Target USA Podcast by WTOP

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Target USA -- Episode 153: The FBI and the impact of the government shutdown

"From podcast one coming up in this episode of target USA a few weeks ago. We started telling you the story of the Washington field office of the FBI at the I personnel. Extremely motivated to defeat mitigate the threats called caused by our foreign adversaries. We sat down with assistant director in charge. Nancy mcnamara. We were interrupted at the time by the arrest of American Paul Whalen in Russia on spy charges. I promised we would get back to the interview and finish it. And that's what we're going to do on this program. Unfortunately, there's been a sinister twist to the story the government shutdown as we conclude our story on the Washington field office of the FBI. We picked the story up with the FBI agents association. No one has received a paycheck for the last thirty days. Tom o'connor? It's president tells us about the devastating impact of the shutdown on national security in general, and specifically the FBI criminal counterterrorism counterintelligence cyber every single area of FBI investigation and work has been impacted coming up on this edition of target USA the national security broadcast. From WTO in Washington DC. This is target USA. Russia could render huge arm to this country North Korea's secret missile capable of reaching the whole of the United States dangerous terrorist DC is repeatedly mentioned someplace they would like to see an attack cyber criminals successful. America as a target on its back and on this program. We investigate the threats the people behind them, the agencies fighting them and the impact on you. This is target USA be national security podcast. I'm Jay Jay green. Previously on target USA episode. One fifty the Washington field office of the F B I is the second largest in the country approximately seventeen hundred people work there. This particular field office is responsible for the geographic area. That encompasses the district of Columbia and northern Virginia. It's also responsible for investigating violations of US law and violence against US citizens in the far east and the Middle East while to some internationally generated threats are normally perceived to be far more dangerous than those that originate here in the Washington area. Recent activity suggest the US has enemies or adversaries as some would prefer to call them like Russia and China or altering that script in in my opinion. I believe the FBI feels strongly that it's not that Russia. In China have been raising the bar. They raised the bar several years ago we are already behind the curve so to speak both have very strong presence in the United States. Both have different types of operations and genders. Nancy mcnamara. Assistant director in charge of the FBI Washington field office sat down for an extensive exclusive interview, the lion's share was about Russia and China, but there's much much more to talk about and on this program. We continue looking at what keeps her up at night, and drives the FBI ES. So as I mentioned any act of terrorism violence against the district of Columbia air and or northern Virginia. But in addition, there's a significant of violent crime threat in the DC area, as you know, shootings. Up considerably this year, and we are working very closely with our local partners and impede e to use federal charging statutes where we can to ensure maximum Carso time for gang members and other violent offenders if we can keep them behind bars for longer periods of time, we can hopefully make DC safer. The next issue of courses offend all in opioid drugs. Greater problem in northern Virginia more so than the district right now. Again, there's a little bit of China influence on the opioid federal problem in we're have expanded our task forces are our healthcare fraud in our gang and drug task forces who are working closely together in specifically eastern district of Virginia. The US attorney is added additional prosecutors to the team there to help process in. Indict as many cases as possible. Terrorism several years ago Joshua school who was a special agent in charge of intelligence here at WF. Oh, just before he left to go to headquarters mentioned to me that not a day goes by that the threat stream is from from from ISIS, Al Qaeda, those terror terror groups, not a day goes by that some information doesn't come up that includes the district of Columbia as an intended target or an a target. They would like to engage. How does that go? Now, is it the same has it changed as it? Lessen what's your observation? Now that threat has not changed this region as the national capital region is under constant threat. Whether it is from now international terrorism groups or domestic terrorism groups are those who. Wish to prohibit and or of eliminate people do to their civil rights that is a continuing threat for the Nash Cupper region. Fortunately, we have outstanding partners who we work very closely with MP park. Police capital police secret service in the list goes on and our personnel are on twenty four seven in the FBI. We assign our strongest investigators to running down the leads that come in through the what we refer to as the guardian system. We have over one hundred task force officers who are partners in work with us on a daily basis, and whose job it is is to do just that to make sure the national capital region is safe from those threats her reorder flipped as your changed of the threat. I know. We in the national capital region in the last couple of years has have seen an increase in the number of domestic threats, at least openly open source public domestic threats, we've seen protests this this that and the other have a overtaken the threat from international terror. National terrorism threat is still there, and I don't want to minimize that. But in my opinion. Yes, in recent years, domestic terrorism threat has been gaining ground on the international terrorism threat, some of those domestic operators are influenced by our foreign adversaries, but the use of social media the development of the internet has allowed and facilitated many of those subjects who wish to do harm as giving them the opportunity to expand their reaches and that has become a more prominent in recent years. Differently. Do you handle the the? I suppose you do you handle the the search for information the the approach to dealing with? I mean, these organizations are here in the US and international terror groups are abroad by definition, but they may have operatives or sympathizers here. So do you handle the domestic threat differently? We do handle diff- differently due to our federal laws, which are meant to protect us. All citizens. We are frequently. Restraint from taking certain courses of action. We, of course, want to uphold the constitution, and we have to be mindful that there's freedom of speech. And whether we like the message or not does not mean that somebody can't go online or speak out and speak about something that we feel is inappropriate or or wrong. It's bouncing that. Freedom of speech with crossing the line of hurting someone or. Affecting someone else's civil rights that is where we come in to action. So it's I believe much harder in that vein. Also because they're US citizens in the United States. They have a greater protections. Afforded them that we have to be mindful of in pursuing an investigating those subjects what keeps you up at my. Well, there are two things that keep me up at night. The first is an act of violence occurring in the Washington area of responsibility for wfaa, which is the district of Columbia and northern Virginia that encompasses Fairfax, Loudon Prince, William and fuck your counties and by X violence. I mean, any active islands against the American public perpetrated by someone to -ffiliated with international terrorism domestic terrorism or frankly, alone wolf or someone who might have some mental health. Issues. The second issue that keeps me up at night is the safety and concern of our FBI employees FBI agents in particular have a very difficult job in end are often placed in dangerous situations, and I try to ensure that everyone goes home at the end of the day. And that's critical for us. I do not want to lose an FBI life. If possible in the course of protecting upholding our mission. Experienced that in anywhere you've worked throughout your career. I have not as an executive had that instance, occur. Although as head of the inspection division in my previous job. I had responsibility for the teams investigate all shootings both intentional shootings in accidents shootings and have seen the fortune effects of of what happens when we do lose in agent, her dessert impact, your people. And then of course, obviously, your your work. It has obviously very difficult and. Hard impact on our personnel is bowl as our law enforcement and community partners. And I don't want to exclude the the families of those victims. It's something that we live with every day. I think most agents would tell you that they try not to think about that part of the job, but all took in oath to uphold and defend the constitution with their lives and all agents are prepared to to do that. And we work very hard in our planning and preparation for our rests to ensure that we take all the. Maximize all the safety precautions we can so that we execute the arrest with little or minimal loss to life. Opportunity not too long ago to attend an event that honored FBI personnel who lost their lives or have passed away for one reason or another, and I was able to observe the children of those people and just the same in the same Bain. I've had the opportunity as well to learn and engage with folks from the special operations community and the CIA community who've lost agents or officers, and again, it's the family that you mentioned in the children that are left behind is there any special message for these children or for those people who've lost folks from from your community that you would like for them to know or to hear from you. Yes. Of course, the first message for any child who's lost a parent or significant family member in the course of a law enforcement action. Is that that we will never forget you. And we will never forget what your family member did for our country the law enforcement community, whether it's federal agencies state or local all do an outstanding job of ensuring that the families of lost. Martyrs law enforcement martyrs are taking care of that tuition and other expenses are paid as they grow. And I think a great example of the impact that that has these children often go into law enforcement is Ben Miller who is a FBI agent and his father Mike Miller was killed in the line of duty here in Washington DC at MP headquarters, along with another FBI agent in the fact that Ben chose to pursue the same careers. As father is an example of the commitment and their desire to serve their country. What's your biggest challenge? My biggest challenge is making sure that the personnel that w Phobos agent analysts support have the resources. And support they need to do their jobs. I hope so. How long have you been here? Now, I've been here. Proximate -ly eight months how much of what you want to accomplish have you gotten done, and what's on your gender fear this job, and what I'd like to accomplish is really a never ending list. In addition to to resources. At my level, you need to consider facilities and other behind the scenes issues that the public doesn't see this is a building. And this is a a business like any other other business. Our main concern is in recruitment. We are continually looking to hire outstanding personnel want to serve their country as agents as analysts in at as professional support and filling and staffing vacancies is a constant challenge for us. Is you heard McNamara her biggest challenge is making sure that all of the people that work at W F O have the resources that they need to do their jobs. A part of those resources is a paycheck. They're not getting it. And nobody in the FBI is getting a paycheck because of the shutdown, and when we come back, we're going to hear the unvarnished truth about how that is impacting the FBI's investigations, and the people that work there when we come back on target USA the national security podcast. Imagine the home you've always known sinking into oblivion save our community our way of life Virginia island population. Four hundred sixty is being swallowed by the Chesapeake Bay the first full fledged town that's probably going to get lost sea level rise in America can disaster be stopped. Should it? Be shell the Lord destroy Tien Gier going under the story of Tange ear island available on podcast one. I tunes and at going under podcast dot com. This is target. USA Mon episode one forty the Kremlin secret squad killer March first two thousand seven it was a rainy cold night in a Delphi. Maryland poll Joyal was returning home. After meeting with a friend at Zola, the swanky restaurant attached to the spy museum in downtown Washington. After pulling into his driveway about seven thirty that evening and stepping out of his car. There were two men waiting for me in the bushes. He was attacked from behind. I struggled with the first men saying joy out a former federal law enforcement officer took his attacker to the ground the assailant call down to his accomplice for help saying something joy out will never forget. He said shoot him one shot from a nine millimeter pistol rang out. Piercing his colon and bladder. But lights outside his house flew on his dog started to bark panicked, the assailants tried to end the encounter and joy AL's life. Then they came in to shoot me again in the head and the gun jammed. This has been a target USA moment. Episode one forty download relive it. JJ green? And this is target USA. This episode was designed to be the comission of a two part interview with Nancy McNamara. Assistant director in charge of the Washington field office of the FBI. Instead what it's turned out to be is the conclusion of an interview about the work, the F B I has to do and the beginning of our conversation about how the federal government shutdown has essentially impacted u s national security and specifically the FBI. So as we begin this part of the conversation, we do so with Tom O'Connor, president of the FBI agents association and grim story of how the shutdown has impacted US national security and the work the FBI is doing and the people doing it. The FBI agent. Association has produced a report called voices from the field and O'Connor broke down for us. What that report says? This report is is titled voices from the field. And it is just that it is voices from agents across the United States and explaining how the government shutdown has affected affected their operations and their personal lives as well as the lives of thousands of professional support employees that work for the FBI and and keep this machine. Running one team one fight and everyone at the FBI is affected by the lack of funding and the lack of paychecks for the past thirty days four that's four weeks. And and that's a long time. Okay. So can you put a specific number on the people that have been impacted everyone in the FBI has not received a paycheck that is agents. No one has received a paycheck for the last thirty days. We are continuing to work. We're continuing to make. Cases. We have thousands of cases across the country that agents and support employees continued to work, but without funding to the FBI itself. There are a finite amount of money that can be used for these investigations for informant payments for all sorts of things that we have to use money to Ford are Esa Gatien's that amount of money is drying up when it comes to equipment, especially as far as C T or counter terrorism. And all that goes, how's that going to impact you? But it it goes across the board that as the FBI uses the budget money that it has and has had since the shutdown started on December twenty first that money that amount of money is used to Ford investigations in criminal counterterrorism, counterintelligence cyber and our job as FBI agents investigating crimes and. In other terrorism is expensive, and as we utilize that money, it's not being replaced. So there FBI headquarters is working very hard to make sure that money goes where it's most needed. But that money is is drying up and cases are being affected and operationally. We're not able to do what we could do back on December twenty. I it's it's it's common sense that as you run out of funds, you have to only utilize them in in certain cases, and other cases are going to be harmed by that every case whatever the case in the FBI is important, if you're a victim or someone who's involved in that case that case is important to you. What about preparation weapons and training and amunition that kind of thing all of these things training has been has been cut back quite a bit. And they're trying to get the the life and safety training to continue, but any additional training count counterterrorism training for state and local officers. I personally had a class that I've run for eighteen years here in the Washington DC area, and because of the shutdown. I had four hundred agents that were four hundred local and state police officers were signed up for this class and it had to be postponed. When when the government reopens will address having a classic. But until then we're not able to do it. So that's just one impact in one place that you can take this and put it across the United States. How is this going to impact vulnerable populations voter will populations are where a lot of crimes occur. So we wanna be part of that community. So that we can work with our task force par. Owners and in influence the criminal element within those populations. And we want to try and catch the bad guy. So the good people can go on and live their life money needs to be spent for task forces to purchase narcotics to put cases together to purchase guns and get them off the street and put cases together to to indict people for those crimes of drugs in guns. We don't have the money to do that that has been cut back. And is is not what it was undescended twenty first. Intelligence is a huge problem right now, especially as far as Russia and Doron and other countries go so where does counterintelligence rank right now as far as concern counterintelligence is important is criminal or counterterrorism in all of the program is operated by the FBI are being affected by the shutdown in the lack of money in those programs. It's one pot of money for one organization, we spend that money to Ford our investigative efforts in that can be criminal investigations that can be counter-terrorism investigations, and it can be counter intelligence counterintelligence investigations in. If there was money that is no longer there. Clearly, those investigations are going to be hampered slowed down. And we're not going to be able to do what we do want a normal basis when the government is funding, the FBI, and you also have to remember JJ that FBI agents and professional support employees have been working doing their jobs. Protecting the public and doing it for free for thirty days. That's four weeks. That's now over a month. When you put it that way. It's just very stunning. Are there's some things I haven't asked you about that. You think are important that you that you wanna talk about the government should be fully funded the FBI and all of our programs should be funded. No victim. No case should go unfunded. So that those victims and officers and agents that are working can't do that job to their fullest the agents on the street want to do their job to the fullest, the people at headquarters want us to do those that job to the fullest. We should be allowed to do that job to the fullest. It is a matter of national security that the F B I is not funded fully, and it is a matter of Brighton wrong that you have people working for a month putting their lives on the line for free. And we know this is. Having an effect on people personally. Are there any personal stories that you would like to and can share? I can I can read one of the voices from the field when it comes to that. If you would like, yes, please do. Okay. This is from an agent in the western United States and these are agents who wrote into us with their personal stories and stories of how the FBI not being funded is hurting operations. But the ones that really hurt are the personal stories, and I'll read one to you. This is a quote from an agent in western United States. I've been an agent for nearly twenty four years and for the last eleven years my wife of twenty eight years. Has battled terminal cancer? And for the first time in my career. We have had to ask for assistance from friends and family to make ends meet. I am proud to be an agent proud to serve my country and willing to sacrifice my life in defense of the people in the constitution. But the have my family place in financial situation. We are currently facing due to partisan politics is disgusting to me as a government employee in a citizen and quote. Any final thoughts from you. Tom O'Connor, president of the FBI agents association. It is the right thing to do to fund the FBI. So that we can do our jobs to the fullest fullest extent. It is the right thing to do to pay people who are doing that job for free. It is unconscionable that this is going on for over thirty days unconscionable. And there you have it. Tom O'Connor, president of the FBI agents association with a stark and pretty scary. Look at how this government shutdown is impacted US national security, at least the part that he was talking about. And as all of you know, that listen to this program. This is not a political program. Sometimes we have politicians on to talk about national security, and sometimes we talk about national security, and how it impacts politics, but we don't take sides on this program the bottom line with what I'm trying to say here is US national security is in a really difficult spot right now three more Adams on the program to story updates and a look at a special intelligence program. I the story of Paul Wheeler. He's the American that was arrested in Moscow several weeks ago. The Russian government says it was because he can. Admitted espionage. He was given a film drive in a hotel in Moscow. Russia says that that thumb drive contained classified information, the family appall Wieland says they still have not learned what kind of information was on it or who gave it to him and we've been digging as well and have not found out. There's also been some serious complications in terms of Paul's representation in Moscow and this week. We got an update from David Whelan Paul's brother in a note, and he said the following things. I'm going to read them to you. He said Paul's family is disappointed that his detention a Russian jail will continue. But we were not surprised by the court denying bail. While we still lack any details from the Russian government about why Paul is thought to be spy, and who provided him with the alleged state secrets we are certain that he was entrapped and is not guilty of espionage. We have. I've not had any information about a USB drive. What was on it or how it might have materialized in Paul's possession. Unfortunately, David says in the note, today's ruling merely confirms that Paul will remain wrongfully detained for many, more months. We're attempting to support his legal defence with a gofundme campaign. He also said hall was able to let us know that he's worried about some health conditions and his ability to communicate with prison medical staff. He's also concerned about translators support and his ability to present his defense in English. The Russian government has also continued to frustrate efforts by the UK to meet with Paul and their cancellation of the US consular visit last week. According to the note, raise a digital concerns. The note says it is clear that only government action will return Paul to his family anytime soon, we know that the. Slur efforts of the US, Canada and Ireland and UK will keep us aware of pulse. Health and ensure his rights respected, but we hope additional steps are taken to bring him home. That's a very sobering note from Paul Huilan's family and the second story on February second unless there is an about face by Russia the US Russia. I n f treaty is going to expire that treaty essentially calls for all medium range nuclear capable missiles to be destroyed. Interestingly enough Russia ruled out yet another missile today. January twenty third claiming that it's in compliance, and the missile proves it. The US has said that demonstration proves nothing. We spoke with State Department under secretary for arms control, and international security. Andrea Thompson about where this leaves the US. Shown the data. We have provided the list of the steps that need to be taken to get into full and verifiable clients that is the destruction of the missile bench destruction of the launcher we provided it to them. Previous years. We provided it to them again yesterday. And his I reminded the deputy foreign minister, you built the system, you know, exactly what needs to be done to destroy to get into getting into compliance. But we provided them with that information. They said they take it back process -ment, but based on past actions or lack thereof I don't into them get back into compliance. We'll continue to abide by obligations. We'll continue to abide by the treaty. You know, have to say Madam secretary that this seems like an exercise in futility, and do you and your teams see see it that way considering Russia's attitude towards this? Or is there is there is there a possibility that something would move them? And what would that something be? Never futility when it comes to the US national security, I'll continue to press. My counterparts administration will continue to press secretary pawn pay on the team will continue to engage again, the the action needs to be on the Russian side. But we we'd never take our national security lightly in the we'll continue to press Russia on this until they get back into compliance, and candidly, if they don't the secretary's been clear as you said, a December fourth we call them in material breach. They have sixty days on February second if they're no long if they're not in compliance. We'll suspend our obligations will will move forward and the development of our systems to continue to to protect ourselves our allies. So we'll be back in a nuclear arms race then. Well, you know, as I tell folks there's not a nuclear arms arms race when when Russia's been violated the treaty for years. So they've been off to the races for years now while we continue to abide by the treaty. So we'll continue to to work the the. With our partners and allies will continue to stay United in that continue not only in messaging, but in actions and ensure that the security and safety the American people are always always party number one. Andrea Thompson under secretary for arms control, and international security. We spoke with her on January sixteenth. The US says it will wait until the second February for Russia to come in line with the treaty. If not the US is going to look out for its own best interest, one final note for this episode on January seventeenth I had the extraordinary opportunity to be invited to and to attend an event at the Defense Intelligence Agency. It was called the heart of mentoring, people passion and purpose. I was able to speak to the audience listen to the audience and reconfirm something I've heard many times and seen numerous times with my own is an indisputable fact to me, and that is that when it comes to mentoring nobody in the intelligence community. Does it better the program? The participants. The leadership and the objective were all quite clear, and all very well laid out that they are dedicated to mentoring because without it. They can't achieve their mission. So hats off to DIA. Thank you for the opportunity to spend time with you. And allowing us into your ear coming up on our next episode whether its terrorists anarchist, cybercriminals nation, nation-states, espionage and everything in between. You can bet we'll be on it right here on target USA. If you have any questions or comments about the program brought me a line at J green at W T O, P dot com. That's the letter j the color green one word at whiskey Tango. Oscar Papa dot com. That's J green at WTO p dot com. Also, follow our podcast at t- USA podcast. That's tango. Uniform Sierra alpha podcast. Till the next episode. Take care. I'm Jay Jay green. And this his target USA national security podcast now, stay tuned for the latest headlines from the Associated Press.

FBI United States Washington DC Russia Virginia Tom o'connor Nancy mcnamara assistant director USA. WTO president Jay Jay Paul Whalen Russian government China America David Whelan Paul Andrea Thompson JJ green
Undercover FBI agent Bob Hamer

Unstructured Interviews

49:01 min | 6 months ago

Undercover FBI agent Bob Hamer

"Hey there before it gets started it. You know I've started a youtube channel. It's right have life streams that have taken place in some that are coming up in these are with unstructured unstructured guests in our flat out. Amazing I started with Chase Hughes. He's the behavioral engineer wrote the book. Ellipse behavior that book covers everything in from hypnosis to negotiation all the way up to well cratia Manchurian candidate followed up with Viva Privacy Youtube lawyer. The huge is channel and a giant following. Really Fun guy next up. I'm CAV Christina. Linen Net Christina is noted did as the world's best hypnotised by CBS. And she's famous for hypnotizing. Someone cowl with her dog after Christina of Mandy. O'Brien Dan who runs bombards body language. Very famous youtuber. Who Different Videos and reacts to them next? Jason de Philipos. Coming up Jason to Philip Bowes answered more questions with Jordan Harbinger than I can even imagine and after that I will have Scott rouse another other great body language experts now. What is special about this livestream? Is You get to ask the questions. Every one of these folks has been a guest on unstructured so you can listen to the episode. And maybe I didn't ask a question you want to hear or you come up with something that you want to know. This is a wonderful opportunity for you to join in. Asked the questions so please look for me on Youtube Eric. Hanley very easy to find. And while you're looking for me I'm Eric on the on all the socials I hope to hear from you and I hope you enjoy the show. My name name is Erica. And this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today we are joined by Bob. Hamer Bob Hamer is a retired. FBI agent who worked in undercover. He wrote about his career in the book. The last undercover cover. How're you doing today? Bob Hey thanks Jerry. I'm doing well. I'm really excited to have you on. I mentioned to you earlier but you will be my eighth. FBI agent. And I find it really fascinating that I can get all these different agents in everybody's doing a different job. Well I think that was one thing that always interested me with the FBI that we weren't really limited to just one particular violation and you could work a violation for four or five years. And if you put your time in you put in some paperwork and you could probably get transferred to a different squad that would work a completely different violations so I always found that a great part of the FBI. Be I it it kept things new and interesting and you just kind of get burned out with investigating the same type of cases. Che's yeah that's going to be out from what I understand it. I probably the numbers could have changed or I might have got a messed up but I understand there's around ten thousand FBI agents. It's and from what I've heard from you. You know in doing research out of that many agents. There's only maybe one hundred to one hundred fifty who actually AH undercover. Yeah you know I never knew the real numbers but the way the undercover program works in the FBI. It's not like television where the supervisor adviser walks out in the squad bay says. Hey we need a contract killer today to somebody WanNa play that role and you raise your hand. The FBI has a selection in process. You have to apply you have to be approved by several different levels of administration once you're proved at the local level then it goes back to headquarters and then they have a two week in service which is kind of a selection process. They want you to I think it's like Marine Corps officer candidate school or or buds training for the seals. It's not it's not that hard lie. There still. Is that selection election process so some guys not everybody wants to work undercover. That's one thing I want to make clear it's not the most sought after position in the FBI but some of those. That apply aren't approved by the different levels of administration. They maybe don't pass a psychological background in terms of being the loner the self starter that type of individual and then some people can't get through the two weekend service because they they can't take the stress of that two weeks and then a Lotta guys once they are proved and they work one or two undercover assignments. They just decided. This isn't for me that the hours are are to their to unpredictable. The cases are too dangerous. And I really don't WanNa do this anymore. So it turned out that maybe at any one time there might only be one hundred or one hundred and fifty people with in the FBI that are certified to work undercover and even amongst those there were probably just a handful of us that it spent much of our career in various undercover assignment. So there were a few. I'm not quite sure. Who are? You've interviewed but guys like Jack. ARSIA myself I mean. We spent most of our career working various undercover assignments. So it was just we gravitated catered toward that. And that's what we like to do. You've also kind of mentioned these seemed to be sort of an independent spirit. I think you wrote like an apology in your forward that that was the one time you actually follow the rules to the letter. Yeah when I I wrote the book the last undercover which here's my first book I've actually authored Co authored nine books but the first book you when you're an FBI agent and you write about the FBI you have to submit it for approval approval from headquarters and the only the only push back. I got from the bureau was that I couldn't name the names of the agent so where I put their names in the original manuscript. I had to replace those with my case agent or the surveillance agent or something like that so that that was that was one rule that I followed is that because they were still active Yes okay so if everybody was retired then you could name names. Yes I guess I think so. I haven't written a book like that. And maybe they would allow that to go through okay. I know there's interesting rules from what I understand. Dan and I've also had secret service on and CIA so that was interesting. Like I understand that you can't profit while you're in the FBI. I I by writing a book on the side you need to be retired. Is that incorrect. I think so. There have been a couple agents that have written books but they've been almost educational. Books are technical books so it hasn't been. This is my life as an F. B. I. Agent as an undercover agent. Or this this is about the case that I work. It hasn't been those type. It's been more of I think cybersecurity type books that have been approved but for the most part art. Yeah you have to be you have to be retired to write it and the FBI does not allow outside income so oh we can't have second jobs and I'm sure the bureau would view a book that was written for profit to be outside income. See I find that interesting because I know one act of CIA agent. who did write a book in? I interviewed him about it. So obviously the different services have different standards words. That actually surprises me but well it was funny because I didn't realize but he got really quiet when I asked a couple questions and I am not familiar with that I was like. Oh you're not oh okay and I cut it interview neither confirm nor deny that it was worth it just to get that reaction now now back to undercover cover career for money or send you did apply to be on the CIA at one point. Yeah I spent four years on active duty Marine Corps and as I was was getting out I was really seeking something interesting exciting and had applied to the CIA and literally scored a zero on personality analogy tests that they gave so they. They weren't too interested. They had the test they gave. They scored you from zero to ten. Zero could essentially live on a deserted island for the rest of his life and be content and a ten had to be constantly surrounded by people and I admit that I somewhat skewed my answers. I assume that they were looking for people that they parachuted behind enemy lines and he stayed there for the three months and then he whacked the Third World dictator and they extricated him by helicopter or something. Yes they're thinking recon down right. But that's not what I did a lawyer for Rigel. Yeah I don't like to talk about that. Yeah I don't. I don't Brag about being a judge advocate Marine Corps. I I'll brag about being a marine. I try to avoid telling everybody what my mos was but Yeah yeah so I thought that's what the CIA was kind of looking for and the psychologist. When he came back with the results he looked at me and shook his head and he said I've I've never seen zero personality personality and kind of laugh at my wife? We've she and I have been married for forty six years and she still occasionally reminds me that I'm the only I declared by the federal government to be zero personality. But when you when you understand for the most part the CIA as role are working at foreign embassies and getting close to foreign government officials and all right Brian to recruit them to provide US intelligence. So I mean it makes sense that they were looking for somebody that had a little more personality but I think that the actual test and the results a little different. I guess you could say I don't need people it's not that I don't WanNa be around people it's like I really don't need people in relationships and therefore that probably skewed a lot of my answers. I'll definitely want to go into that. A little a bit more later going into being undercover though. What did you think it would be like ahead of time before you went into it when I was going through the academy? We had a couple of people that were counselors that had done some of undercover work. And I just thought that that sounded exciting. I probably probably watch a little too much. TV thinking that. Wow this would be really exciting. I'm SORTA Vet Ephram Zimbalist. The FBI generation were guys were wearing suits and would fleiss their badge and credentials and say FBI and that didn't quite interest me as much as being that guy that nobody knew who he was. That was playing a role. Kinda I was more of the James Rockford type of Guy Way away and so that just interested me so I tried to gravitate toward those type of assignments. I mean once I once yes I got Outta the academy I guess my goal was to eventually work undercover and seek out those opportunities and and it was everything I expected it to be and actually more. Let's cool it's nice when Something fulfils the expectations. Now I ascoli now because I did not realize that you as undercover agent and I don't know how the other services work or local police but you would work multiple cases at the same time that surprised me you could. That didn't always happen to me. But but toward the end of my career. I always kinda laugh that I was one of the few certified undercover agents on the West Coast. So if they we're looking for I get the I O U cases so if they were looking for somebody that was impotent old and ugly they would contact me so I'd toward the end. I was working three undercover cases at the same time. And that was. That was a little too much. I mean it was pretty stressful. Quite frankly quickly it was stressful from the FBI administrative standpoint. Not from the bad guys standpoint. I could have. I think I could've easily worked even more undercover cases if I didn't have to fight a lot of the bureaucracy that comes with any the undercover assignment. When I'm curious how do you maintain an identity on multiple cases or do you just have one identity and you can be both both appear and a thief at the same time right? Yeah the the three cases I worked one was a major case called Operation Smoking Dragon. And and it was a cig- retargeting and Asian criminal syndicate that that lasted three years so I was undercover for three years on that Particular Investigation Association. At the same time I had infiltrated a group called NAMBLA. The North American man Boy Love Association which was a group of pedophile. Dell's men that were sexually attracted to boys and then I was actually working a Vietnamese gang case. So I- maintained the same backstory for all three of those that I was an older man. I mean I had the same name. I had the same undercover credit cards and undercover identification. Identification okay. I was an older man. I was handicapped. I had some real estate and I had some financial investments and accounts. I had clients that I worked for so it was. It was the same with all three of those so it wasn't like Oh my gosh today. My name is Eric and and and I'm in a weapons case and the phone rings and wait a minute when this number dials in Charles and I'm a pedophile. You know so it wasn't it wasn't anything like that. Okay well I just. I had to clarify that in my head to get around that and I guess that makes sense because you can be a pedophile. Who runs a warehoused oust that is allowing cigarettes to go through for a living? Yeah and I'm guessing that maybe I'm wrong but maybe the more more more of a criminal you are the more variety you have the better each cover reinforces themselves to a certain extent. Yeah I mean when we worked The Vietnamese gang case I I was someone that was dealing with counterfeit cigarettes so I talked about that and can talk about got it openly and even at one point provided them with some counterfeit cigarettes so it added to my credibility when I was dealing with the gang members also no I wanted to also check with you on. I guess you'd call it a very different kind of undercover guest. Jack Doc Barsky and he ultimately had a run in with the F. B. I. himself but he was a KGB agent. Oh Wow and he lived here in the United States for ten years as a fake citizen he was born in east. Germany smug came in and establish an identity entity and ultimately quit and he's the citizen now of the US great guy but one of the things we discussed was. He's suffering to this day as he put it with a near personality split because of having to maintain I mean he literally had a family only here in a family in Germany. Oh Wow okay and children both now. I'M NOT GONNA say yours is extreme. But I'm I'm wondering do you. You have any kind of effects of having to maintain two very distinct identities. No I maybe my wife if you interviewed her she'd tell you issues but no that that wasn't a problem for me. I I honestly believe that. God bless me with a pretty screwed up brain and I could very easily compartmentalize so that I could. I could be the the the contract killer her and then I could go home and be the little league coach or be the husband. Be the father. Be Sunday schoolteacher. I mean I I was able able to compartmentalize and never really. It was never that I didn't know who I was at any particular time I knew when when I went undercover. I assumed that identity I was that person and then as soon as I came. HOMER MERGE A guide back in to the Bob Hamer Life I was Bob Hamer so I I didn't. I didn't have that was humor tether for you because I know you've talked about having a habit a plane songs on your radio. Oh Yeah Yeah. I think that's a a lot of that somewhat. Kept Me Sane. I I think what happened. And maybe if you've talked to it sounds like you've talked to some pretty interesting. I think people on your podcast but the first time I went undercover it really was the first meeting was pretty innocuous he was but I came away with an adrenaline rush. I mean this was. This was exciting for me. I'd actually gone in to it in the meeting. My knees were shaking and it wasn't because I was scared it was because that adrenaline was just coursing through my veins and I even said as God stop the knees shaking because he sees the knees he's GonNa think there's something up and when I got done with that very first meeting it was like oh my gosh. What a rush and I wanted to it was almost like I was chasing the Adrenaline Dragon? So every every time I'd have a meeting I was trying to kind of up at a little bit more up the danger a little bit more just to get that same rush that I had from that very first I meeting so I would. I would try to do things but I also I wanted to see how far I could push it but I wanna have fun while doing it so yeah I mean you mentioned the music. I'm a country and Western fan so I mean I. That's one of the funniest ones I had was. I was involved in a sixty sixty million dollars shoulder-fired missile deal and every time the bad guy got into my car and I turn the ignition on. It was cute to Charlie Daniels Song uneasy writer in the first line. You hear on every tape is on every undercover tape. The first line you here is is. Don't you know what this man's spy he's undercover agent for the FBI. And then it's Charlie Daniels finishing up the song and I would play Jailhouse Rock folsom prison blues. I mean I'd have bad guys in the car. Literally Kinda dancing to the music as riding riding along and I'm I'm playing playing these songs I get one case I I always I guess in some ways I I kind of viewed it as a TV show. So I would have my own soundtracks and I had one guy gave me two kilos crystal meth and I timed it perfectly and it wasn't visual because it was audio I didn't have a camera it was just the audiotape. But just as he's handing the the two kilos closer crystal meth. I've got it played Herald Melville and the blue notes are singing. If you don't know me by now you'll never ever know me and I just Kinda says it all POW well then okay. There's a couple things that I can think of what that number one the fact you're so concentrating on getting your soundtrack trek right has to relieve a lot of stress. Because you're you're playing a game and that takes something away from the situation probably makes you come across is even calmer. No I think so. Also it's so blatantly obvious that it's seems unlikely and it reminds me. I'm going to reach back to Jack Barsky again. But when he is training he had to go all over Moscow etc and pick out people who might be tailing him so he would do this for days time. They have twenty thirty people and he'd have to give reports reports on who they all were and he only missed one person and it was a he was a person that he had seen before though. But what this guy. Why did is when he's when he saw him kind of met? The Guy Walked up to Emma bummed a cigarette. Okay Yeah and I. I think think there is a lot of truth to the more obvious. You are the less obvious you appear. I wore gangster five years in south central. La I'm a white guy and I was buying drugs. dugs from crew members midnight by myself in an old beat up pickup truck and when we finally broke the case and we arrested thirteen members of these various crip sets and the One guy had sold me rock cocaine on five different occasions. And I said you you know you had the suspect the white guy come down here to buy drugs and he looked any sugars head and he said you know we figured the police would be too stupid to send a white guy down here. Oh Oh my God it was just it was just I mean. It was just too obvious. They didn't they didn't pick up on it. I mean I've laughed after if you made a movie of my life people wouldn't believe it. Because you wouldn't cast Bruce Willis to be buying drugs legs in south central. La You wouldn't cash. Bruce Willis to be working in Asian criminal syndicate. I mean you'd get you know Jackie Chan and you'd get Chris rock or somebody like that. The play those different roles but I was able to do it. I was able to to to pull it off and sell whatever back story story that I developed. Well can you describe the one I feel like if the story makes sense you know then everybody will fill in details now with the operation. Was Smoking Dragon. You right tablist yourself as a property owner right and you happen to have a warehouse are house something like that right. Yeah I had. I had a warehouse. We found out through source that one of the top. Well well the top importer of counterfeit cigarettes on the West Coast was looking for one. He wanted to try to make sure that he could get his cigarettes in through the port of Los Angeles or Long Beach to the biggest ports in the world and then he needed a place to store them and then he wanted the ability to have them transported anywhere in the in the nation. So we came up with a back story that we would have the warehouse that I had access for long haul truck drivers and occasionally i. I might be able to help get this stuff. Get his containers through the ports without being seized because I had a few guys at work the port but only if they work the same days could I get their containers through so we I mean obviously we were working with customs and Immigration and they knew what we were doing and they had a limit on how many containers they were going to allow us to bring through and for the bad guys container of counterfeit cigarettes. They were investing about a quarter of a million dollars so if those containers did get sees they were out quite a bit of the money so they were willing to pay me to guarantee that that would go through so occasionally we would help them can get a container in and then we were using those cigarettes once they got in to track them. The bureau was really. This was sort of a twofold old investigation one. We were very concerned about what was getting into the port and how it was getting in and those people that were bringing in to avoid taxes axes committing crimes but also a lot of these counterfeit goods particularly the counterfeit cigarettes. Were filtering down to the MOM and pop grocery stores doors some of which were owned by Middle Easterners who were using the proceeds to finance terrorism. So it was kind of a two prong investigation investigation. Let's get the people that are bringing in the counterfeit cigarettes and let's identify those people that own the stores that are using the cigarettes stand finance terrorism out of curiosity. You've mentioned something before about always being very focused on how juries are going to accept you as has a Witness how do you look ahead. While you're building a case and cover entrapment concerns. Well I think that's that's a great question because as an undercover agent actually a as a police officer as any investigator. You've gotta think like a defense counsel you have to recognize. How are they going to be able to break down this case you're required as the FBI agent has investigator to prove each element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt? So you gotta think like a defense counsel okay okay. I can't give them this line of attack on this case I've got fill fill in all the elements and then I. I can't give them a defense so on the entrapment issue. You always have to make sure that it's really initiated By the defendant that they're the ones that are that are talking about it you. You're not you're not asking them to commit a crime that they're not predisposed to commit so it's just it varies with with the investigation but a good example into counterfeit cigarette case one. Another one of the targets was a female and she worked very hard to move these cigarettes and more than on more than one medication. I would just say hey. Why don't you get a real job you? Could you know parties. You're working you get a real job. No I like to party too much. You know. That's why I do this. And so you try to dissuade her and could actually use exactly. Yeah I think you also did that in your later case with Nambla at the last minute. Didn't you say look. The weather's horrible. Why don't we just stall a week where we try it another time? I'm impressed you read the book I appreciate. Thank you yeah. That was a little different situation in that case because we had set up a phony boat that was gonNA take them down into into Mexico where they thought they were going to have sex with little boys and the weather was horrible and I was afraid they were going to back out because of the weather so I was offering offering them the alternative not to back out of the trip but we could take a car and I drive across the border and we wouldn't have have any problems by driving across the border rather than getting on the boat but they they all chose to get on the boat and thus you were covered in the sense because look hey they really really wanted to go right in that particular case and Blah. I was able to establish pretty early on that. They had all had sex with little boys in the past that they had traveled to have sex that they had a desire right to do this so We were able to cover that element fairly quickly and you had to though because if I recall you weren't being supported initially because there was a first amendment issue by it being register organization is that right yes we really weren't targeting nambla the organization we retargeting individuals that were committing crimes. I think one of the US as assistant. United States Attorney said it best when he said NAMBLA is barnyard defecation. We're not going after the defecation were going after the flies that are offering around it and I think that was very true. That's what we were doing. Yeah Yeah and for your podcast. I cleaned up his language. Thank you thank you. What is the most interesting thing that you've encountered being undercover? Oh Well clearly the most bizarre. There's a lot of things that are interesting but the most bizarre was a case that we worked was female circumcision and I was even unaware that it was a federal violation until I was approached to be the undercover agent. But it's it's a violation. I think it was in nineteen ninety six. The Federal Government passed the that female circumcision law and it prevents anyone from performing female circumcision on a person under eighteen years of age except for medical reasons and the FBI had learned of a person that was doing this and almost killed a child after performing the surgery and so we were targeting that particular person now. Interestingly enough even if you read legislative intent it was essentially to go after these somebody from the Middle East who was practicing medicine over in the Middle East and perform these procedures and now has moved the United States and is probably driving a taxicab. Or something I was thinking we immediately more First Amendment questions that may be popping up around that case well not really because of the because it was a law in essence it was practicing medicine without a degree or certification occasion so the person that we ended up targeting the first person ever convicted under that female circumcision act was actually a white. The guy that was Tattoo artists and body modification expert. And the first meeting I had at his his house. We were talking. He presented me with a showed me a bunch of pictures of procedures performed all kinds of. You've Genitalia type of procedures. And he had eight by Tan color photographs of all this stuff that he had done escorted me into his back room where he performed the procedures and we walked into the bathroom and in the bathroom. There were two people sitting in a bathtub of blood. One was a female that had purple hair and another was a skinny white guy on a laptop computer Typing away on a laptop computer and todd who was performing reforming the procedures. He didn't believe in suturing so after he performed whatever procedures he did he. Had you sit in this herbal bathtub. Ask Tub for weeks until you healed and so I walk in and I see two people sitting in a bathtub of blood and there was no way to prepare for anything like that. I mean I would. I didn't sleep well at night. 'cause I think okay if they find my says this to me. How do I respond? So in my mind I rehearsed all these different scenarios for every undercover investigation. That I perform so that sometimes when they'd catch me me off guard I in my mind I had already been hearst that scene one hundred times and it just was able to spit out what what almost sounds to be extemporaneous exclamation in fact. It was something that I'd been rehearsing in my mind for days. But in this case when when you see two people in a bathtub of blood a woman with purple hair and a guy pounding away on his laptop computer there really wasn't any way to prepare sure and I just asked the woman. May I ask what procedure you had done. And she had just had the female circumcision and I said Oh. That's that's you know interesting willingly asking pod to do this procedure on my stepdaughter's and then when I turned to the guy and can I ask what procedure he'd had done he'd actually had his year re through rerouted through his scrotum And arming so there was just. I mean no way to prepare for for those responses so clearly it was the most bizarre encounter that I add in my undercover career. Wow you had mentioned also in the book that sometimes you had more knowledge because of obviously briefings and surveillance and things like that sort and if you were to reveal that knowledge without actually finding it out in in person you are very severe danger. Did you ever have any close calls. No but you're right I mean that is you have to. You have to be able to separate what you've learned in a briefing in what you've learned as the undercover agent. I never had the close call where I made a mistake AAC but there was one case where I was with a couple of the targets. This was an organized crime case. And the one guy hi. His given name was Craig but he went by Anthony and we had another FBI agent. I had a little too much to drink. That was supposed to be my surveillance team. And he referred to who the guy in the company of everyone as Craig but everyone knew him as anthony and I had to quickly come up with an excuse at the time I was posing as a screenwriter and I said that I recognize this guy. He was an old character actor. I said I think somebody did. Refer to you as Craig you know talking to the group of bad guys and they it Kinda bought that and I said that guy is just drunk. He's a character actor in fact I think he's having trouble even getting hired anymore because of his drinking and so they they kinda they kinda bought it but it somewhat Eric. This comes back to the zero personality. I prefer to work by myself shelf. I DIDN'T I. I usually didn't like to work with another undercover agent. I was too busy trying to protect my story and to protect myself and not have to worry about covering for somebody else. I had a couple bad instances surveillance teams so. I prefer not to have a survey on steam because I didn't WanNa get burned so it was just. It was just so much easier to to be out there by myself. Did you go by sensually. Also while you're Arthur just users yeah same always use Bob. It's my first name now. I had my middle name was always there was always a a method to my man. My first undercover name was Robert J born so that that was long before the movies but that was Robert Ludlum and then my second undercover name was was Robert William Wallace from braveheart and then my third undercover name was Robert David Webb which David Webb is Jason. bornes real name. If if you've followed the books yeah so there was again that was just kind of another way to screw who with people really just trying to give hints. And but I always kept Bob. Because I didn't want you coming up to me and in in public going. Hey Bob you know great having you on there on the podcast and this that and the bad guy turns me as I thought you said your name was George Bridge so I always. I always kept the same first name just in case I in case I ran into someone that I knew and another re from a practical tactical standpoint. This happened to me a couple of times when I was dealing with other undercover agents. Were their name. May Be Eric and I knew them. Ms Eric and I talked to them as Eric. And they're undercover name was Willie and now I've got to think okay. I've been calling you you eric for two weeks as we prepared for this case and now we're we're the bad guys either. I gotta remember that your name is Willie and and so I didn't WanNa when it caused any more anxiety for another undercover agent. So I just I always Capitol Bob. Fortunately for me Bob. It was a fairly common name. An anonymous Bob. Yeah it's Bob But I didn't have didn't have some. It's kind of strange name. That just didn't quite fit. Whatever the character I was trying to play now does? Does that. Also help in terms of and I believe you have mentioned it that you keep your fake as close to your real identity entity in some ways like like a really skilled liar is going to be telling about eighty percent of the truth. Exactly Yeah you you you lie as little a-list possible I mean if and I'm I'm being a little melodramatic here but if you're going to get killed you WanNa get killed because of a big lie not because you've been playing like you're single and all of a sudden you you talk about your wife and they said Hey I thought you were you. You know I didn't think you were married. And they end up shooting you over the stupid little line not the big lie so I for the most part I tried tried to keep as much of it as true without sharing that much so it wasn't like I sat around with the bad guys and talked about my kids and my wife and my dog and all of that. You've you've you didn't you. DidN'T I. Try Not to get that purse long running for example. Yeah Yeah and I think your first case you did actually use your wife being pregnant to say hey I gotta go to another town because of a doctor and medical stuff. Yeah she was pregnant and and we used I. I used that as as a reason that we were going to be leaving the area. Okay well reaching back and I know we're getting tight on time. I am curious. How did you live a normal life in the community? And by that I mean. Couldn't you run into these people at home depot you you know for the most part most of my career was spending. La La is a large town. A lot of my undercover work was out of town. That didn't didn't become an issue but there was one time that it hit very close to home. I was undercover agent in the La Mafia family case in in the mid eighties and that week a guy had threatened to break my legs and run me over over with the car because I'd been late with some payments and my daughter who was about six or seven at the time we were chopping at K. Mart now if B. I. Agents shop at K. Mart because they don't make that much money but I didn't think that Tony Soprano shopped at K. Mart and all of a sudden I'm I'm with my daughter in K.. Mart holding her hand and I look up and here comes the guy that has threatened to break break my legs and run me over with a car and I I grabbed my daughter. And we kinda hustled out the the back of Kmart sued the warehouse area and it was a month or two later. We actually a parent teacher conference. And my doc. My daughter's teacher mentioned that my daughter said that her dad was very special that he could take her to the place for the regular customers weren't allowed to go a kmart so the mouth of babies. Yeah yeah she didn't she didn't she didn't blow my cover as an undercover agent but So we kinda laughed. Thought that was funny but that was in terms of being with the family. That's as close. It's it's ever McCain been when I was actually undercover. I had a couple pretty close calls with civilians. You said civilians billions Civilians as a family or non-criminal. Yeah nine criminals. I mean I I talked about in the book and in the last undercover but I was was literally sitting in the lobby of a hotel with a half million dollars awaiting two kilos of China white heroin talking with an international heroin dealer or who just told me that his partner was in the lobby with the gun and if anything went wrong I was going to be the first person that they'd kill and in walked a couple apple that I had lived with When I was going to school before I got married and they weren't older couple? This is in Cincinnati. Ohio and I was in Los Angeles. So we're talking two thousand miles away and they walked right into into the lobby. The hotel and the wife saw me and I kind of shook my head very subtly that this is not the time for grips and grins. And she realized something was wrong and Should her husband toward the elevators away from the the main lobby lobby and within about ten minutes Tequila show up and we arrested three international heroin dealers. But it's Kinda one of those things again again. If you saw that on a movie you wouldn't believe it. Yeah that doesn't happen two thousand miles away a decade earlier. If it wasn't gonNA tell that would be less is likely but as a hotel people travel. I could totally see that happening. Well it did. Wow and thank God. She was sharp. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah because they were they were they were great couple. They were Okay I I don't know who your audience is. No no offense to Tupperware people bowl but they were the tupperware distributors Cincinnati. And they were they revive Asia's he would be the guy that would come up and slap you on the back and you you know hey bob how's the FBI type of greeting okay. So at least they knew what you did so when you have that sidelong glance Oh oh all right well I wanNA pull out on a happy note. You've been on Oprah okay. Yeah wow how did that come about when we when we finished up with the NAMBLA investigation the case and we we indited. Eight members of the group's inner circle and one of those members was a PhD psychologists that worked at to Chicago area hospitals. So it made the Chicago Tribune. It was Pretty big article in the Chicago Tribune about about this guy and it was right when Chris Hansen was renewing. What's going on for another season of Catcher Predator? So she he was having Chris Hansen on and I think I I won't speak for Oprah and our producing staff but I think they didn't want to devote the entire show to Chris Hansen so they were looking for some other filler but still along the lines of the child predators and credibility they. They reached out for me. Well awesome now. Where can people find out more bob? Hamer Dot net. Yeah Bob Hammer. Dot Net B. o. b. h. a. m. e. r. Dr Dot Net and. There will be access to my books. So you get to see those or some sample chapters and some quick links if if you're interested in in buying them and if you WanNa get Ahold of me to come and speak to your group I would. I would love to do that for a fee. I'm not well I'm I'm not easy but I'm cheap. But thank you so much for taking the time. Thanks thanks Eric for having me I appreciate it very much So there you haven't Bob Hamer fantastic guest best great story and one here more guests. Please subscribe tell a friend and don't forget to check out the Youtube Channel where you can interact with unstructured. Guess personally when the spirit of sharing of like to present a couple of other shows you may WANNA check out Steve Veronica A- and we we we have a podcast all about podcasting we cover everything related to the craft. How to start a podcast? How to prove a podcast hard to promote a podcast and how to reach a bigger audience so come check out our podcast? pod sounds cool. We're on all of the podcast players or on our website pottstown school dot com. We we are dedicated to provide our policies with up to date EC and actionable information sometimes outrageous and always fun and know about through regularly scheduled. Oh programming what was that like. Might just be the most intriguing podcast you'll ever hear. Each episode is a conversation with a regular person person who's been through an extremely unusual situation like Jeremy who was bitten by a rattlesnake for Jennifer who accidentally killed someone or luke who got caught smuggling cocaine real people in unreal situations. Listen and subscribe at. What was that? Like DOT COM.

FBI Eric Capitol Bob US CIA Jack Doc Barsky youtube Hamer Bob Hamer bob Dan NAMBLA federal government Marine Corps Bob Hamer Christina Los Angeles Chase Hughes officer Chicago Tribune
Ep 124 - FBI Profiler Candice DeLong

Heartland Radio 2.0

1:19:02 hr | 8 months ago

Ep 124 - FBI Profiler Candice DeLong

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The fire that this show radio here we owe Welcome heartland radio two point. Oh it's Monday for you to learn that for us. I WANNA say how much how how secret little bit earlier we dance. Come in on Sunday for this one because we already had an interview in the can wait and to go. It's a good one. It's great once a great one very very interesting person of FBI profiler and real retired FBI profiler that worked on some really fucking cool case. real-life Aaron earnhardt Schnur Aaron. Hotch ner it would be. Is he one of the guys for minehunters. Shame I right there he led the greatest. Ut for I don't know thirteen fourteen seasons we have one of those. And I don't know we got a lot of murder we got a lot of Serial killer questions did not only about cases she worked. We get to pick her brain on her opinion on some other high-profile cases like Casey Anthony many to take a big loan. We'll begin sue for throwing around his Jumpy Ramsey theories. 'cause you settle a Good Jillion dollar lawsuit where people were sitting there doing after every body Davison slander. kind of go hand right so this. Someone's going to do it this Dan this hero. The helps resolve some of that. First of all we're at. This is the first episode after Thanksgiving digs hundred thanksgiving. It didn't really have one. I'm going back to Pittsburgh this weekend. Thanks for bringing it up so we really just sat around I I I air fried some wings new she. The Lady Mates Buff Chick dip. We had some Sharpshooter up they go. I hung up the lights outside outside. Come on it's great. I'd say it wasn't really like the traditional Thanksgiving but that's coming up in the past for you guys coming up for him. Correct undebated ordering hooters because Nick Online. They're open on Thanksgiving. They could move for them. I didn't I guess it was doing good. It does a nice day relaxing. Clause watching football awesome Jordache. Let's see what's on their. We'll get some Chinese food. Yeah hooters hooters was open Tang. Did you get it not in poetry. Good to see these place. 'cause we looked was closed. What do they do closed on Thanksgiving respect? They they don't they don't like Turkey. I'm just saying when you like these holidays. They should lose giving Christmas. Yeah normally your go-to like if you aren't celebrating is to order Chinese. Yeah that's where you clean. That's where Chinese food places cleaners should lose their Chinese food license for talk with on Thanksgiving. I don't know what goes on in Canada dumpy but this is what happens down here in the states. Where you're you're currently located? If you don't like it you get the fuck. We don't slander people over food. Tony there was no slater safe way. That's just the way insight on this one Paul. Listen everybody's will no-one no-one minds throwing me under the bus you notice. They're not doing it. Because you're wrong the Go-to we have. It's an American staple for China. It'd be opened on it. Nobody else is. McDonald's opened on Thanksgiving. Ardabil are nuts like a four three. Repeat close I don't think it's normal. Hours Donald Yeah. Aren't they twenty four hour. Well I mean on Thanksgiving probably not every McDonnell. Well just twenty four hours now. We have those McDonald's twenty four hours never closed we have some not all the twenty four hour no mcdonagh not all. You haven't done account twenty four hours. pooping through delicious. You put in your McDonald's yeah. Is it like this pool. She hit gravy at the McDonald's though no they put together a decent food. Putin has fries and a bunch of other Shit Screws Cultured Suave. School thanksgiving to listen to squash. I was your thanksgiving. You half of it was good. And then we lost power so Someone call that Karma mice. Chew through your fucking lines could be with flaunting your Green Green Bean casserole and everyone's face muck muck cash or a out the coastal elites fucking Crud Castle. I brought it up people talking about what you guys have so much food over there that we would never eat. It's just a little you know Thanksgiving staple midway. Is that what it is. 'cause I never once had it before. You're not from the mets circling Midwest. Oh Yeah it's definitely mostly south so Indiana's kind don't probably don't even have a green bean casserole not with the like the mushroom soup in there to make it all Sufi and stuff he puts p cons in there. My mom had a pretty good one. Back home in traditionally always mushroom face. uh-huh that's where it came from the south but the one I had was this one was like she had cheese and anytime you can incorporate that kind of stuff Jackson accent maybe away from cans of Campbell Soup and towards yes Jalapenos and that kind of the way better to be honest. It didn't look are are coming to Campbell ones. I've had have been good. I'm just not gonNA make the cable soup by the wayside nation the switch from the Cain up to the cans that you could pop popkin develop in my life. That's my dog like. I always put a little wet food of some kind on the dog. Now I do is get cancer. Chunky soup that pop open at the top. Like split one. Big Cam between the three dogs balls acceptable fast dying. It's everything in there. It's got a vegetables. It's some kind of some kind of gravy. It's Brown. Does anyone have any suggestions for opening a canned without a can opener knife other than savagely jabbing which I had to say have. Have you seen an old western movie. There was one can of Turkey gravy left to the grocery store and it was a metal. Can that you could not pop the top on you. Had to just take tonight straightened Thanksgiving meal. Yeah nothing crazy. I don't have a full bird but how little Turkey a couple of little biscuits smothered in gravy. Oh let's go kill for awards. Dargo belt they were closed and get a bag of fucking at the gas station station. Chocolate milk. you're you're invited over to. The powerless mccombs thanksgiving. I have to walk fifteen forty we get again again. You know hello. This is how bad I got fucked with the power I go outside I see all these trucks out there forever and I'm like what in the fuck it went on so I walk outside and I see my neighbor to the left is houses dark in the one next to him. Stark and I talked to the guys in the truck and their tree trimmers and they go You got lucky like a tree fell took out a line. These two houses around yours is unaffected. Then never happens I always get fucked our in here. I'm the I'm the first lose at last to get it back. And he goes well. I got lucky man. Just enjoy the rest of your Thanksgiving them. My cool go inside ten minutes later. Power power out and I'm like what the fuck out thirties. I tell you I came out of the head. Kill power to the whole neighborhood in order for us to the tree right right when right when the saints game come say that's prime time. The only game gave a fucking. He's other Games fucking horrible. I enjoyed watching the bills L.. spank the cowboys. I was just boring because the cowboys were so bad for nothing. Yeah Yeah but it's fun to watch cowboys lose on Josh Allen. And I like them. I'm good L.. Laser arm. I'll tell you that much. What was good about him as soon as you saw him drafted like you just knew whether he's better than any of these other guys are not like He? He is Buffalo's quarterback like he fits in with bills Mafia. That's working on forms. Tie what you think you. I mean my dog doc is just that he needs attention. Constantly yearly can't do too I. I went to Kroger in the morning. I'm so fucking packed. And they're gonNA get some stuff and I figured if I time I was like like no one's going to give a shit about the. The bears game turns out. I mean everyone. Indianapolis went to Kroger. At that time I ended up getting a fucking Pumpkin Hunkin. Pieds eight that whole thing. Just terrible stomach ED sleeping off for about four hours it was a classic tied. But yeah exactly I like I said I would have killed for a goddamn played at Syracuse. A bunch of Shit. We they invite you over your living in the depths of the spare. I mean I wasn't. I wasn't snowed F- onions chocolate milk much-needed it's needed so much. I was miserable. A The fucking crazy man. I Still WanNa do I could've just it's tough it out at the grocery store and got some stuff and I was after like fifteen minutes I was like fuck it. I'm GonNa be like we just grabbed coal. It's fucking Texas XS toast called a fucking Yup I just so god Damn Lazy. It's unreal ever notice how majestic of creature the strong fit Aware can look around self care and I'm talking about it's health like it's It's put together a long time if you want to be put together. Well Tom let me tell you about Athletic Green. Listen your body's nutritional needs change all the time due to a variety of factors like stress travel sleep patterns exercise a crappy diet even with a balanced healthy diet. It can be tough to cover your nutritional basis that's why top performers athletes executives and Entrepreneurs Trust Athletic Greens Athletic Greens ultimate daily is the obsessively research all in one nutritional support containing seventy five vitamins and minerals and whole food ingredients. Just one scoop contains essential vitamins and minerals probiotics prebiotics digestive enzymes adapted jains and more providing you with the convenient and comprehensive nutritional insurance of support your gut health energy immunity and more. The travel packs troutbeck drawbacks. That's nice they make it easy especially easy to keep up with your health routine whether you're at home in the office or on the road. There's no need to carry around a backpack full pill bottles simply put athletic. Greens can help you feel great each and every day no matter what life throws your way no harmful chemicals are official colors. Sweeteners no added sugar new. GM mm-hmm dairy free no herbicides or pesticides. You name it. And it's Vegan Paleo and KITA friendly. If it's it's time to focus on your health and feel your best athletic Greens take the guesswork out of everyday good. Health does it without compromising on tastes or quality. Why wouldn't you try it? Why would you try job over athletic? Green dot com slash heartland and claim your special offer today. Twenty free travel packs. It's great deal valued at seventy nine dollars with your I purchase that's athlete Greens dot com slash. Heartland Start Your Day. Right and good things will follow. I was. How's your bird my bird? Oh good yes. She did good she. She was upset when it first came out. She stepped the meat thermometer in there to check it and it was like it was only two and a half hours and things supposed to force some. It's already one hundred and eighty degrees inside so I'm like oh I can take it out and then you know see us we get in there and we start cutting those not done on the like the the drums and wings parks the middle perfectly done. What happens Turkey? I guess he's put a bad in there for another half hour. The perfect time eight moist. It was good good season. That's you nailed it today. Go verse. Hey I for her right yeah. It's pretty big deal next year funds for us as chocolate milk to they really go. Well altogether you know. Greek castle crunched up. Okay you would see your American relatives. Columbus Columbus had a nice dinner drove back this morning. Four thirty opening in hall hit the Open Road Dinner to two kinds of cranberry two kinds of stuffy stuffing nice did anyone touch the cranberry just slava lectures with a spoon. No you just put it you mix it with whatever thank you put it on top of your stuff stopping. Oh my gosh. I wish you would avoid me down. I picked up the cranberry and throw it right in the track. Your Opening Castle cranberry. Please use the table actually sweet though. The one was like really fruit. That's what I'm saying. You put if you mix it with everything it ruins the entire play. One kind was bad like it was way he's GonNa ask you might as well just poor jelly on everything. Data tastes like tastes like a jelly. I just like it is shitting cram. dopey a fucking idiot. Did no birds and fruit Me asking if it's a fruit deserts are funded salty salty dog Forbes. Our to them okay. Okay creameries of fruity it as they can be very talk. Sometimes I get mad at us our you selling your cranberry fucking expert. The cranberry juice do enjoy ninety. Urinary Tract Infections period. The tracks clean when I was young and I didn't know how to drink yet in college. Vox Vodka cranberry. Is it crush when I was. Would you just twenty-one of water with a splash our adults yeah. I mean they're delicious. You just can't get caught. AH DRINKING THEM AT my age definitely then they assume you have a urinary tract infection. It there is something wrong with you. Your age is not cool I crushed croutons. I don't fuck you really okay. I have a dried apple vodka. Drink anything but white clause for the last three months shows. You're an adult adapted when you're going down a dangerous path down the path I you have that wave hitting you one of these days. You're just give it ears to get too cocky and you're gonNA talk and finish off a fifteen rackham mango done for certain where it's like a guzzling them. I know it tastes like water. I I was shocked on him yesterday. In the sweet spot they taste like your drinking ice cold glass of water. I was laid to the train but I am the conductor this force the in laws we had a buddy in college. He played online poker. He didn't really do much in college. Only one hundred fifty grand a year. So we'll go to the bar every we've got an by bottle service and they always come with the three standard mixers sprite. Yep cranberry in orange juice and always makes vodkas. Bright with a splash of cranberry and it was the little pink drinking and I found out later in life. That's called a seabreeze filling delicious. I never understood why they brought the orange orange juice at like one. AM It 'cause it's a simpleton. I mean everyone drank fucking screwed. What's I know I'll have? I love it. Don't tell tell me you won't drink it. There's a fucking screwdrivers not it's not a one. Oh Jay doesn't feel good comeback. Does it stinks quite. My acid reflux will not let me have orange juice that later tonight. And that's what all of what is the best like one thirty two in the morning warns near time to leave the bartering. If you're GONNA have your last drink and you're not do what is the. What's the clothes on your show because normally at that point? Yeah I might switch to beer beer for like two waters if I know I'm going right home Well on my way I'll do a shot for. At least I was going to say about say at an old fashioned close tonight because it literally and figuratively closes the night. Yeah Yeah I enjoy quite a bit. See I've no discipline I will go jack and cokes until the lights go out fortunately. RV City you uh-huh yeah you tie. We'll go he'll go the fuck out and the problem like you don't realize like I don't because you slam drinking beer like he's drinking as fast as I. Am One for one. But he's drinking Jack and coke so I'm like twelve. Buses are so fucking sips out of John. Yeah a little Jack with that fucking booze in this dream time after every everything true as a staple you know and it's not always true. It sets a precedent. Yeah I mean if I'm going to get a jack and coke pay eight dollars for it. I wanted to fucking smack me in the teeth a little bit. I'm not a Jack and coke drinker Can you ask for a splash blaszczyk. Oh yeah you can but I mean it seems like same fucking time and if you do it does she watch well for For a heavy politics you just gotta you gotTa Buddy. How much drinks are you in college because when we were in college Alex they were like it was? You could get almost anywhere at fifty centuries. We had a penny beers. Quarter pitchers was the big thing like regular bars because we had to. But there were Shitty Shitty college bars bars. College kids went to for sure. I just I didn't go to any other bars which I'm GonNa be honest trash. Yeah but it was it was. I don't know I assume like I think a beer used to be like two bucks at a bar back then maybe dollar fifty fifty. That's more expensive than I would've thought even still though fifty cent high balls on Thursday nights at all the bars don't it's not fakty sheds go. There is a place at in Iowa city. They did dow dollar liquor pitchers one night. Oh yeah he'd go spend four bucks blackouts fucking. There was a job on Pitt's campus. That had a bar upstairs as one of the only ones that had a barley can country and they would do fifty cent. Bud Light draft on Thursday night. So we'll walk up there with a twenty dollar bill and just go really old school getting off work shift when guys back and they'd just leave the money on the ball. Put the twenty the bar. So let's go everyone drank. I'm wanting to say somebody might be able correct me on this but I wanna stay then like a case of course lied or Bud. Light was like nine or ten bucks. I probably I would always get the cheap when it was a five dollar cases. Cheap bypass rafter. Remember me high school. School was like seventeen eighteen. Yeah Oh yeah for sure for twelve or now like we're twelve packs tax twenty-five back home back that you can't treat in Canada. It's two or stronger. Their beers are strongly. What about multiple Moldova Cold Labatt Molson triple x four? Those you're crawling home us. Lucky do you have a lot of breweries and stuff like we hear microprocessors. Lots of little goodwater up now too is stronger. Hey if you want to bury you need good water stream near House you guys. I got a good fresh water. It is I'll give you that. Oh Yeah I don't drink what he said. Oh you know like I don't drink beer. I'm not a beer really. I'm almost oh signal all the breweries around here though. I want some fucking ice cold. PA The fucking Shit Outta here gone to. Oh you don't have bud light available records later anything or anything anyone drinks okay. All right so we'll see you later worn crazes doug dying dying out. Let's hope episode oversaturated and now people are getting sick of all I have one hundred options of things. I have no idea whether it's going to be good or not. Some play the guessing game even though sometimes they'll it someplace sampling or whatever. Yeah it's fucking dot. It's going to go more toward like Here we have psalms in they own big log brewery and they will feature. There's in their bars but then you also have all the dimensions down right junior place. It's going to hang their hat a one brewery that makes a different kind of what do you call it Stoute's Beers I got two years and then you're going to have have all the options I think the days of going to a brewery and there's nothing available but three thousand different kinds of winter nut harvest here. I fucking twenty seven percents. Because I don't mind that I don't mind going to a place and then like Oh you have sunk in beers or beer brewery. That's fine. I have a list of drinks those two I mean but I know if I don't like any of these beers I can go to my go-to domestic graduate. I now I want to drink like fifteen beers. Yeah right can't do that with us. No you can't do rolling rock. It's such a crushable raw. Aw I think I can drink as written about rolling rock. They go so fast. Show Fort Wayne. I would just drink. And it's like three drinks my beers I forgot how easy rolling rockets greater latrobe Oh really that was like the shit beer we could ask for the steelers training campus. We giving college lot pounded on it but it was it was actually decent berry and then what Budweiser bottom. Yeah can't remember. It has urged Bush. I don't think it's any more bill. Thirty three yeah. Uh What's the thirty three Stanford. I remember labored. No we got a great interview for you happy. I enjoyed your thanksgiving. I hope you're getting ready for fucking awesome Christmas. I don't if the sale is still going on the thanksgiving. Thank you sell might still be going on Monday. He goes to whatever Monday. Ramp back up if you haven't already cyber Monday. Dude I mean if items are sold out you can still order them and they'll be on a preorder so when they're back in stock you will get them. Yeah very important important though because things are selling out so don't drag your feet get on their take advantage. Twenty percent off the entire store for some reason people. I started ordering some of the items glitch glitch but now everything is working. It's all twenty percent off if you haven't taken advantage do so now. I'm not just saying this. We have burn cooler March lights. Yes the for. The brand line is one of the greatest clothing lines going right now period you go through the scroll through just the for for the brain collection crushes now. We have the blue and the red hoodies. It's awesome much any color you would want. Yeah and you can match it up the flag if you want for your school whatever school or whatever team that you screw support. It's a great do it right now and Let's take take take about fifty minutes out of your time and listen listen to two former. FBI profiler who used to make your living catchiness serial predators. Pretty cool stuff joining us on the phone former. FBI Criminal Profiler and criminologist and author of the Book Special Agents my life on the front lines as as a woman in the FBI as well as host of deadly women and facing evil on investigation discovery. Let's put your hands together for candice just along. Welcome Canvas look you thank you for having me. Yeah you're one of the favorites on our list. Get these pitch lists from Booker's and Right away I was like yes candice Delong have a lot of questions. You've had a very storied career as a criminal profiler and we just like the rest of the world are enamored with the the FBI and want Do there so I want to start by a letting people know how you ended up in that job well Actually I was a psychiatric nurse for almost a decade and I became head nurse at the Institute of Psychiatry in Chicago which is run by northwestern university. And that's the position I was in when the FBI recruited me also you were recruiting. Yeah was recruited everybody. FBI when I was head nurse about maximum security psychiatric off so you were kind of already in that realm on the private sale. I didn't know yeah. I guess it makes sense that they would go out and actively recruit people from that field. Is everyone the ends up as a profiler criminologists in that unit from that what kind of background and recruited in or some developed from inside from field agents or whatever soon back when it happened to me in nineteen eighty the behavioral science unit. and which is what they call themselves then. was really in its infancy stages I recruited just to be an FBI agent the term profiler really didn't even exist at the time and it was four years after I was working as an agent when the Behavioral Science Unit I was in Chicago Kogo. When the Behavioral Science Unit sent out communication to all the field divisions that they wanted one at least one person from every field division to go back to the Behavioral Science Unit for training then returned to their field division and worked as a profiler along with the the pay bureau science unit for their own territory and and for their office? And so. That's what I did. And and so. My training took place at the behavioral science. Cina many times over many many years but I always was assigned to a big city for fifteen years Chicago and then for five years San Diego on San Francisco Cisco Sorry. I could be wrong here but I'm not sure if you've ever seen or heard of it. The the NETFLIX Netflix show mind. Hunter has someone who had your background. It seemed like on the show. Who who came in with your similar background do they was? That was that based on you know. Okay Back Debbie seen hunters at all. Oh yes okay Both John Douglas. The two men in the movie shows are are supposed to V.. John Douglas and and Robert Ressler and they started the The program and they and they started working. They started interviewing they wanted original about people that that compulsively kill and they they often pulling out. There was an expression in the fifties. If you WANNA know about a Cadillac asked the man that owns one. Will they thought were Descru- apply that principle to these kinds of people and the woman in this show is supposed to be doctor and purchase. WHO's eight doctor nurse? She looked at the nursing and she was affiliated with Harvard University and she helped write the model for the interview. So when you see them interviewing interviewing killers and you see representations or dramatization of what the killers were doing that is all one hundred percent accurate. A lot of the drama of their personal lives is not that sure. Sure okay so when you got in that field it Kinda after day it had success and then it was kind of an accepted practice and all that then they were like okay. We need spread this out across the country yet to our field offices to get cases this is right was through the vast majority of crimes that win themselves to profiling serial rape multiple murders Sometimes I'm just one murder. Let our our state charges and not federal charges so we had just spread the word so police so we also were instructors. I became police instructor. Her and we would keep schools to state and local police on the subject matter. Like this is what we're discovering. This is what we can do for you. And and then the phones would start ringing and they would bring cases to us I would work with cops on cases as well as Working with Guanaco Quantico with John Douglas when I say Quantico. I mean the behavioral working with John Douglas Wrestler and Roy as the West on the case I wouldn't work on my own work with his down. Okay that's really cool. That's this is like the best way to get More cases or get your agency involved if you have have a specialty practice and more cases in in my world when I was a police officer cell phone investigations were like Tracking Geo tracking and then the analysis restore local records was just starting to get big so as we added people to that unit every time we get more and more cases kids that cop has his own network of cops already with other agencies so then we were being used more. It's kind of like that's what happened with you. Guys a sounds like that's a beautiful way to grow it the unit. So when you you get in there you're you're really on the ground floor. The the people that started the unit are there and you're getting to learn iron and intimately worked with them. So how cool was it to be in that position as this was really getting hot and heavy I know like it. I like Kinda came. On People's radar the general public's radar because of silence of the lambs at glory. It was eighteen ninety only one. Yeah like what top gun did for the navy and all these movies do for different practices but by the time that came out you guys were like the world's best kept secret I would say as far as surreal predators. Go well For years the research had been going on John. Douglas and Roy Hazelwood as TV. Show the Netflix show presents at first. Were on their own going around the country three meeting with cops and also Interviewing serial killers compulsive killers. They call them at the time and and As time went on word got out that the FBI was doing Research on people that enjoyed killing and Thomas Harris the author of silence of the lambs heard about that and he went to the behavioral science unit and met with John. Douglas Roy hazelwood would and Robert Ressler and said Hey. At that point. He'd already had the bestseller blacks Sunday. And he said I want to write a book about People that kill kill for fun and I understand you're doing some work in that area and so here I am. Tell me what you know. And from from that he wrote his first book of the trilogy was Mind Hunter and then then that the red dragon the Red Dragon with the first title. When it was released the first time the second book was silence of the lambs and the third book? Was Hannibal. Okay so I guess not. You weren't a secret among law enforcement circles but kind of secret into the general public and then Dan this is this happens and then people are like Oh my God. They're these almost superhero Detectives of source that are running around the have special knowledge of this stuff and It was just took over the world and today people really enamored by it. I mean which is good for you. Someone who retires capacity because now all these shows close enough to develop the two that you're on but I wanted like the credibility that you have in the reason you're in those positions because you've worked some incredible incredible cases in your day I read that you are you were involved in the unabomber case was my first. The case was the tylenol murders in Chicago in nineteen eighty one. I was the only rookie up time but there was some profiling Coming from the behavioral stance ans- Regarding that case. I mean somebody we knew at the time was somebody Contaminated a whole bunch of pinal pills and put them back in bottles also distributed them all over the city and seven people died. I remember the best thing I remember my parents and everybody like scared to death. At the time. God scared to go shopping because it could happen if it could happen at Chicago can happen anywhere. And that was in the infancy of of Cable News of which the only one was CNN. So that was kind of a huge boost for the cable. TV industry as well But I knew I worked as a rookie on that and then it was fifteen years later I signed you bomb case after I transferred to San Cisco Excuse me but I didn't and Work on it from a profiling standpoint. I was just following leads like any other agent but then my partner and I when when Ted Kaczynski was developed as a viable suspect my partner John and I were chosen to go to Montana with another agent and who was from Lint Montana and starts start following leads and into making the case. Try to make the case. I mean you. You can't go knock on someone door cabin door in the woods. Just because they're brother said I think brothers of armor. It doesn't work that way because you know so. We were up there six weeks before the arrest running all over Montana building the case. What so I know that the Linguistics thing was being Kinda used for the first time on that level at least the language the manifesto compared to the notes. And things like that. Were you on you more like okay. That's going on now. It's my job to do this other aspect. WHOA WHOA there was? The analysis of the manifesto was done at the Behavioral Science Unit at Quantico And they did notice us. Well that's the reason the one at The bureau really worked at very high levels with the New York Times and the Washington Post to publish the manifesto after after a lot of a lot of publicity and what day would it be published because when he sent the Manifesto Stowe to the Times The Washington. Post end some girly magazine. That escapes me at the moment. Maybe penthouse I'm not sure Said if you publish my manifesto stop the killing. We will stop the killing And so we'll of course we read the manifesto when it was twenty five thousand rambling words and we thought there was some things in that that were unique. One of them was the term sphere of influence. One of them was the term. You can't have your cake and eat it too but it was wrong in the manifesto is you can't eat your cake and have it to whatever that is wrong. It was wrong in there and something else that escaped me and when it was published published Exactly what we had hoped would happen happened and what we hope would happen was that somebody would pick it up and read it and it would ring a bell with them. They knew someone that use those expressions are not exactly what happened. The brother the brother had he had a bunch of letters. Write take that Brother His wife had never met her. brother-in-law Kaczynski David Kaczynski. But it she'd heard about him and she read the manifesto and she looked at the FBI. unit the bomb calendar of dates of bombings. And where they were and she knew that her brother-in-law that she'd never met had at one point lived in Chicago when a a bomb was placed had lived in Salt Lake City when a bomb was placed and had lived in northern. California The Berkley area. When when a bomb was placed and so she started so when say nagging her husband David to to read the manifesto and he didn't want to do a month later he finally did and and when he read it he became filled with dread? And he said we've I think my brothers. There's the unabomber so they got A. They hired a private detective and she brought the manuscript she brought. David went back to Chicago from New York and went through his mother's attic and found a document that Ted Kaczynski had written twenty five years before on the on the ills of technology. And how bad it was. got it out of the attic. They gave it to the detective instead. Find someone from the FBI who's especially in linguistics. Compare these two without telling them who your client is and she found. Clint van. Zandt who frequently will see on. MSNBC analysts and Clint was retired at the time but had been associated with the Linguistics Department at the Behavioral Science Unit. And he read it he read the to compare them and he called the detective and he said I believe there's about seventy percent chance both of these documents were written by the same person. And if you don't tell your clients if you if your clients it's don't tell the FBI. I will and so at that point. The clients got in touch with the lawyer who worked through or held their hand while they you met with. FBI officials and of course the FBI officials at that point. They got the manifesto for young at the beginning of the end for younger younger. People listening to this show. I know everybody's heard of the unabomber especially the show came out helps with that but this went off like seventeen years. Seventeen years ears like it ended in ninety five. I think right before I went to police academy or right after I'd started when he was apprehended. But like this was a true domestic terrorist situation like people. We're scared to death like they were calling. In every time there would be any kind of trash to remotely rumbled resemble a box being out next. Somebody's car the police are being called. I mean people were really hurting. Verified opened their mailboxes packages. At work is really killed three people and like wooded almost thirty seriously seriously wounded people took a plane down It's a Wolf Wolf scary. I love me. 'cause I love meat. I can sniff it from miles away. Always on the lookout ask for I love me too. I'm always outlook on the lookout for some goods tasty. Meet the best place to do it. 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Smouldering fuse to launch became filled with smoke and they had to do an emergency landing and so some people were I mean that. Can you imagine how frightening that is. You're on a plane in in your and suddenly you're coughing from smoke. And I think twenty one people might have been must have suffered minor injuries and Matt and that's when the FBI case over from the ATF. Oh okay well that makes sense because now it's yeah yes. It's an integer bailiwick so to speak back after that happened federal. Okay would you go when you go into a certain case. Is Their game plan. Like is there some. That's more important than others. Like is a signature of a killer more important or is it the victimology or the location when you go into a case or is it just you go into each case with with a blind a blind look at everything and then go off the Evans. Well Y- yeah it's it the more cases there are if it is the same perpetrator trader. Then you're going to see or you should see Things such as signature as you mentioned Sometimes that just jumps right out there. You go you know that crying may was committed by the same person that committed crime B C etc but generally speaking That will of course the victimology which is knowing everything about the victim. is very very important but the most important thing is the prime scene itself and the autopsy. What happened to the victim What could what did the offender due to the victim was was the victim murdered assaulted murdered in her own. Home or what she brought to another place and murdered there and then was there a third the place that was a disposal site. There's all kinds of can be can be three crime scenes or more in one in one murder So the but the crime scene is very very very important. Is that what you call ritualistic savior. Is that how those those particular things. How one of those classified? Those listed crime is where a particular behaviour ritual is is important to the offender. Okay and I think Over the years the term has been maybe misused by the public along with behavior. Or there's an there's a very important behavior that the killer will always do at with his victim to his victim at of crime scene I would call that repetitive or signature. Behavior Okay You keep saying his victim is that because it's all it's what's the percentage is always not always guy but yeah in your experience anyway so it's always it's always the alright variance and and when I do lecture college kids and whatnot. I point that out the the reason I say he is the vast majority of these The climbs that lend themselves to profiling the victims are women and children and the crimes perpetrated traded by an adult male. And when I say adult it doesn't mean they have to be over twenty five I mean they can be sexually mature it out of puberty. Some of the most vicious serial killings we've ever seen and prolific were committed by eighteen nineteen year old. What we call a bully but the voice physically i? I'M NOT GONNA ask you. Yeah I'll probably will some other cases. I know you didn't work the what your your initial thoughts are because I remember you being interviewed. Oh maybe by Diane Sawyer. Somebody when Lacy Peterson was missing seen and her husband. Scott Peterson was making all these media. Appearances and whatnot. Things were kind of looking weird. You know we as laymen men or even a cop at that time but I remember all my friends and be like is naturally you know. He's he should be more remorseful and are upset. Or whatever but I remember you things you were going on there and started. You pointed out the fact that he was talking about her in the in the past tense. Even though at that point she was just missing was was it you. She was missing. It was the day after that was me. I say it went on national. TV I lived in the bay area at the time and She went missing Christmas Eve. So then there's Christmas Eve all day. Christmas not much is being done. I mean the rest of the world doesn't know much and then and and then the day after I think they never give up hope okay salon and so he to see this young man going and now they're never going to get to enjoy the nursery of felt like a slap co okay. So because that's the case. I assume you see stuff like that all the time with high profile cases By the way in the Scott Peterson Lacy Peterson case. I don't know about you. Horrible choice of choosing Dean Cain into play him in a movie. I didn't like that move. He would just played superman and now he has to play. Scott Peterson this monster. I didn't like that at all. I know they resemble really do but come on okay. So let's get past that but The Casey Anthony Case. Did you have anything that you would be willing to share and observations. You've made with with early because it appeared to all of us that that obviously she did it from what I understand in the law enforcement side of things pretty strong case even though most of all of it was circumstantial evidence. Even I think the judge after the fact said can't believe the jury acquitted her but they did because they were hung up on the fact that nobody in the prosecution excuse inside could show exactly how she was killed long. What I my opinion is and set it at the time back? Then one was because I was following that very carefully I think the prosecutor offended the jury. I know he did the things that were offensive. Such as When the the defense attorney would be making his case for his client the prosecutor would sit at his table with his feet up on the table and his hands are kind of shaking his head rolling his eyes where the jury could see this thirty disrespectful and that he also committed a cardinal sin when he interrupted the closing statement that I think the defense attorney's name was bias? He interrupted his closing statement many times. That's chess not done. You don't do that and I think it's a possibility and let your will never admit this that they were sending a message to the prosecutor. Like look you have the power to put people in prison for the rest of their life and you're making your mockery if this candidate long. I love you so much because I am. Your Business is psychology and I WANNA explore for this more but I thought the same. I'm like Hey I'm playing language. I'm like that guy is acting like a complete and utter smug asshole like no one is liking him right now and okay. So you're businesses psychology. Everybody knows that Soco's plays a big role with the jury's these are just regular people and they make emotional decisions like it or not and they do was. It's no one in a prosecutor is most people are never. If they get on a jury D- that's their first time ever meeting prosecutor ever or or or or seeing a cop testify or maybe meeting an FBI agent and cops with badges and people with the the power to Prosecute someone are powerful and juries like to know that they can trust the word of someone with that kind of power and I think this particular Prosecutor Blewett Iron Sadly. I would love to be wrong about this because I would hate two things that are jury would let someone go Who killed someone else? Because they are angry at the prosecutor but but people will always be people in their people first and they're thinking people second. Yeah and I think because it was a circumstantial case as soon as you would say evidence wise just gave them an out. You know you can tell us exactly how Kaley so Yeah I'm just GONNA hang my head on that but I totally believe it was. They liked by as better than they liked the prosecutor and the here's the thing like high. I price attorneys like Byas and other ones get help from people that have psychology G. backgrounds to help like hell to act with a particular jury. You know why. Why is that not offered on the law enforcement side of the with on the state side or the the district attorney side you know because you kind of get really high priced attorney a lot of times especially at state level? These prosecutors are so overmatched and they don't get that kind of help but I thought like your job. The four were your psychiatric nurse. You're in that field before you're an FBI agent like they should tap into people like bat and you'd be they'd be willing to help you know even form some kind of state fund were. They could get paid a little bit for doing it. I'M GONNA try to pick a homicide. Detectives best friend CAN BE E- On psychiatric nurse that works at a local hospital. Yeah that is a that is they lead an informant or a An asset that homicide detectives should develop I. In what way. Why is that well Not the not to rat on the patients but they would be able to say. Let's say a detective you've had a crime scene murder That was absolutely horrendous off the charts. Not like anything they'd ever seen multiple stab wounds The the offender evidence. The offender mutilated the victim after they were dead. Things like that Compare that picture to picture of Victim one or two stab wounds the successful or completed completed vaginal rape whereas the other one wasn't maybe there was a seaman over in the corner but there was no actual penetration. Everybody body compare those two one of those was committed by a crazy person. I mean somebody. Hearing Voices Delusional and and a very disorganized mine and one of them was considered was was completed successfully. The rape murder by a very organized person who's not mentally ill and psych nurse would be able to tell you that because of speaking with so many people there were patients in there and make some of the people that end up in psych units for treatment because Nowadays it's there's a waiting list for crazy people to get our our seriously seriously ill. They are highly highly delusional. Delusion is a strong belief in something that has no basis in fact such as Invisible flying saucers are sending radio waves in some my feelings and my teeth And they're telling me and then voices and all that that's serious serious. Mental illness has to be the the person needs to be removed from society medicated To to protect them and to protect society And in a psych nurse would be able to help you inexperienced. eichner detective showed me a picture like that early in my career. I think I would jumped out a window. Get away from it. Sure took me a long time trying to get used to looking at horrible. They'd be willing more than willing to help to. They're on the right side of things already while you're shopping for the holidays. Don't forget about thanking all all the amazing nurses Doctors Dennis and people who work in medicine and healthcare that helped you through the year true. 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How much you care at the year with fix this holiday season fixes GonNa make that easy by providing you with fifteen percent off your first purchase by using the code heartland get ready to love your scrubs head to wear where figs dot com? That's we that's W. E. A. R. F. I. G. S. DOT COM and enter code heartland at checkout. Dixie like piggies. Do you have any thoughts on Jon Benet Ramsey case. Now there's anything that sticks out to you all all right and and I've been I was on to is in in September. Sixteen every news outlet and talk show outlet in the country. Did a special on it. The Dr Phil Show they got John Ramsey. And Burke Ramsey who is nine years old at the time of the prime her brother other at the time of the show is nineteen and they asked me they called me and they said we're just feeling out and they said where. Do you stand on the Jon. Benet Ramsey case I said Oh that's easy that's the case and the DNA points to an unknown male and No one in the family or in the family sphere of family of friends and whatnot. has tested positive for that and I said it. It's really means. A Stranger Ranger came in the house and killed her in the basement and got away with it and they said we want you on the show and There were some other shows shows. A one of them resulted. CBS Did a show and basically they had a couple retired. FBI profiler one of them said Patsy wrote the note and the other ones said. I said I along with a A famous forensic pathologist whose name escapes me but basically they painted the picture To fit their theory rather than following the evidence there evidence she had unknown own male. DNA in her and on her she was. She was tortured. Her hands were tied with UH OF COMPLEX NOT. That's an adult crime committed. That's an adult sex crime committed by a post pugh doesn't meal on what we know is a six year old girl that's what it is and They actually the the show that gotten so much trouble with. CBS and ended up in a seven hundred and fifty million dollar lawsuits for anybody that said John and Patsy Ramsey were involved vault in the murder of their daughter in any way or that did it and this one show they said Burke did it. PATSY covered it up and everybody ended up on on on the lawsuit and they had to settle out of court. Because you can't go around you know unless you say it is my opinion Blah Blah Ah Blah but all the experts that looked at that note no one and I mean super experts. No one was able to say it was identical to Pazzi. He Patsy San writing in like five out of six things that you look for. Nobody can say that but this retired. FBI agent felt comfortable. People saying it and he ended up in a lawsuit in a field. That subjective anyway I mean yes. It's yes yeah you can always right and you can always find one hired gun you know. I always tell people you find somebody to say anything if it's a field. A forensics that has any amount of subjectivity. To it you can find a higher Aghanistan GonNa say whatever you want dangerous business. I didn't know about that lawsuit. So yes you can't bring in an expert about six months ago. Seven hundred and fifty million dollars it was against. CBS was against production company. It was against everybody that participated that said or implied. That John Ramseyer BURP. Did it or patsy covered up and the thing about it is I've known about that lawsuit for ten. I've known that ten years or maybe fifteen years that the ramseys and even patsy before she died the Ramsey sue. Anybody that said they had anything anything to do with their daughter's murder and one and one COP is judgment. A COP that wrote a book. How patsy Ramsey killed her daughter I think it was successfully sued for seventy five million dollars? I mean you can't go around. Doing that with a lot of people are surprised to hear what I just you said that it's a DNA kate of unknown DNA. That means someone got in that Charles got. That girl brought her down to the basement. And the way does she was killed is indicative of a post Pugh bessant a person. It was an adult sex claim. ona-led little girl. That's the scariest this monsters. The king comes thing of horror. Movies comes into your own house in. Does that to your child. That's the worst almost a guy in this room. That's cringing right now. Because because he is posted opinion a couple of times on on. Who's done in that case they're talking about shows with credibility not So we have also said it was a data. Yes the and you know what. That's not nearly as publicized as all these other theories of keeping you know suspects in house because there's less drama associated with the right it's not as good. TV The DNA. Okay was available Lynn there was the grand jury and and Alex Hunter of the the state's attorney at the time made the decision the jury wanted pins wanted to move forward with charges against the RAMSEYS and L. Center said no because he knew about the DNA. The Boulder police as department was much happier of clinging to their belief that the ramseys did it. Then looking at truth which is No they didn't not only that look at Burke. At Burke at the time was nine years old he was in pre pugh bessant and this was an advanced sex crime right now disassembled. Show your it happens all the time police make the mind up and HR so much time. China make evidence fit their theory. They lose awesome. It's time really should be confirmation bias you you you try to somebody so for doing that. And it's like okay Do do you ever confusing on your behalf. Like trying to get back to the active shooters real quick but like running in with other agencies. He's like overlapping on investigations. Like that or were you like exclusive enough and what you did. It didn't matter you were kind of beyond that it didn't matter and One of the things I learned early in my career working with local cops like Chicago. PD in San Francisco PD is really early on in in in working case I would say hey How do you know how nice to meet you Blah Blah Blah? I used to be a nurse at northwestern and that broke the ice when the new that I was more than an FBI agent and cops love nurses. Hey it's back Dating I never had the problem. Yeah okay so the active shooters. They're trying to get inside the minds and make get a thorough more thorough understanding of why it's happening and what triggers these individuals is. There is there hope like his seems i. I mean it's almost an epidemic now like its its talked about domestic terrorism. I mean it's not one person doing acts over and over that we don't know of. It's always one individual adjoining get caught or killed. But it's almost like like you have this Colt of connected people. They're not but you know we have these random acts all all the time and people are just scared to death. Should be like we're gonNA make any progress. It's so how well it's you know one of the things when we've learned and by studying them is that in most cases in whether whether it's a high school teen or or it's The guy that shot up the Las Vegas Music than you wrote. In most cases there is something thing that is called leakage on the part. It's a behavior on the part of the shooter. Okay and what that is they tell someone in or they drop a clue that they're going to do it and it's ignored and so one of things. I mean it. We we are educating the public for the El Paso Walmart shooter. The mother of the thunder actually called the police and said my son is is amassing weapons and saying things that make me uncomfortable. I want you to come over and take these away. He's too immature to to do stuff like this And it didn't work it. The big problem is it putty lawfully go. Just take the guns from me. You know if we're GonNa let teenagers have and in most states you can have a gun done before you can have a beer your kid in Texas you have a shotgun like you wanted a early age of a rifle all all these things. Yeah Yeah Yeah so anyway. It's it's the problem what I tell people when I told my son growing up. He's forty forty four now. And what what I tell young people that I run run into. If we're getting room conversation is don't mess with people when you're out in about going going about your business maybe going shopping. Maybe playing soccer at school. Whatever you're doing You're you're writing a bus crowded bus. Don't mess with people so you don't know who you're dealing with even today like I used to. I would have a little bit of a temper. Somebody like you know. We're trying to live a parking spot. The dispute or whatever and they yell something back mom. It's not worth jumping out an assault rifle. Lighten up my car right now. So yeah you can have it. A friend of mine had three teenage daughters. This is back when I was an active. FBI agent and one of her daughter was real. Sassy and cocky and and and you know for teenage girls can be and she hate candy. this guy down at I just flipped them off. I took her by the hand. I sat down down. I said Okay when you talk You may you're okay now. You got away with it this time you may have slipped off a serial killer Dr who will follow you home and kill you when he gets the opportunity and that did happen not to her but There is a Critique crime writer last name Olsen Not Glenn Olsen but I think it's jackals and wrote a a story or wrote an account of a serial Serial killer about ten fifteen years ago. The book actually made me sick parts of it were and he was a long haul trucker CONAN cross country killing people And he actually had family Mary now a family which by the way. It's an uncommon with serial killers. And Anyway Wonder One day. He drove into the parking lot of the grocery store and a car in front of him or or when around him the spot I and flipped him off. She was flipping off a serial killer. He waited he did. He looked at hurry. Smiled right. Then he was making plans. thatt's flip offers offers killer killer That would be my luck man waves that what was that. I ended up getting resolved in Illinois. Get caught in Illinois. I'm not sure I don't think they tend to blend Before I let you go and I appreciate you spending this time. I realize we went over. I think what we were expected to do. And I can't thank you enough for Kolonics fascinated by it and we. Would you have one case that you're most proud of or they like you remember like man. You know what this is. This made everything that I've gone through this point worth it on my came in on Saturday morning and in the East Bay of California -Fornia Oakland. We had word that the night before a convicted child molester had kidnapped a kid and he had the kid with them and he bought tickets For the nine. Am Bus to San Diego. And so we were all there saturating place he never showed and supervisor said let's go over the Amtrak station we go over there Amtrak station Saturday morning People all over the place. All we had was a picture and a description that unfortunately that the guy was six foot six and have red hair copper red hair gifts under and I was looking one place. The couple of the guys were looking elsewhere and from behind me I heard stop pulse. You know all that you know the things that we say when we're arresting someone in public and I turned around and they're about five or six guys my colleagues Guns were Out People were screaming and running Bringing this Guy Gra- had hold of the Chi- and and and I I I run over so we're kid. Where's the kid I see this? They're trying to my colleagues are trying to bring the guy down get him on the ground and I looked through this mass of of humanity and I see little white arm in in the middle of it and I reached in and I grabbed it and I pulled it and it was the arm of the little boy and when he was only eighty pounds and so I kind of pulled him out and he was terrified. Crying and and My partners I took care of the bad guy. I took the victim back to the office. We chatted I took and then I took him to the to the hospital and A few days later I brought him home to his family. And that was the most adapt made made all the nonsense of of of being a Cop Yeah and working in a bureaucracy go away was I remained. Friends Ends with him for twenty one years really all grown up and he's been through some stuff. That's very cool that you stay involved. I mean that's it's like I think cops work their whole career just hoping they have any anything close to that you know something. That's ten powerful as that because because you see so much crab and he works many late nights and you go through so many divorces or whatever the you know the case is because the job and that makes that's very that's very cool cool story good for you. Hey candace taught thirty years and died in prison after about ten years. It's good good good. That's what should happen. Yeah that's here. I don't know I like to think for them to have to work for me kid cases in my day everywhere I worked with regularly -tective that special specialty people for that locally. Okay so I. I don't think that fit my like I did a lot of different things but that was one of the things I was like. I don't know if I'm very good for that. I can't I can't do those interviews with those guys like Takane on other stuff. Hey candace I want through my people the yearbook which is special agent take special agent my life on the front lines as the woman in the FBI and in a couple of years or in about a year. I'll have another book coming out based on people that interviewed on my TV show facing evil and the name of that book will be called the convicted. Nice where can they go to find this beyond just Amazon and The other open source place. The books of course any any book outlet. Nah You can buy used copies of of special agent we're going to have a twentieth anniversary issue with. It'll be twenty years this is coming Twenty twenty no it came out in twenty one and To see the shows to see the interviews themselves of course deadly women's all over the place. There's an APP called go spelled I just like it. Sounds and deadly women's the number one show on the on the ID APP graduated. And it's awesome. Congratulations if you WANNA see the interviews of the of the people convicted of murder that I interviewed. Most of them are on Youtube in the name of the show is facing evil so just put go to Youtube and Keyword Candice Delong and pretty much. They'll all come up. There's thirty six of them their way your fascinating person. I can't thank you for. You're sharing this time with us. This is very cool. That's when I I know less about that aspect of law enforcement than probably any other parts all having you. Here's a big deal for me. The guys guys love to so we'll make sure we check out your stuff until everybody listens to the show to check it out consume anything that candace delong puts US Noli Eero. I mean she's she's she's a bad ass. She's a true American Better Kansas thanks. It was fun. Absolutely thank you so much and we'll hopefully we'll get to talk to you again sometime. I'm very interested as things progress with this active shooter. thing that the be used used doing so if that ever progresses in in things develop along that road I'd like to hear more about Oh awesome. Thank you so much lazy gentleman. Candice Interesting

FBI murder Turkey Behavioral Science Unit Chicago Canada Donald Yeah prosecutor Omaha steaks Dean Cain Scott Peterson Jordache Dan Netflix John Douglas rape Good Jillion
Special Edition  Insider Threats

The CyberWire

22:51 min | 9 months ago

Special Edition Insider Threats

"Experts who talk us through the different ways insider threats manifest themselves but consider Z.. To spot even when you know what to look for if it were easy with the FBI of taken would NSA have led how Martin Walk out the gates of Fort Meade with a terabyte of L. informed or poorly resourced and if they failed what hope to the rest of us have and now a quick word from our partying employees to securing cloud apps and on Prem Systems your company OCTA reduces vulnerabilities secures not only employees but contractors Agile admin friendly I T to learn more visit OCTA DOT com all that seemed to put the organization at risk are they all bad apple so to speak or arth what are experts mean by insider threats let's hear from Dr the they they could be is because of that name inside a threat which sort of the end up doing something foolish or getting convinced the something foolish that compromises name and password for example Or I got you to give it to me at but in fact what you tend to find is a lot of accidental inside of you can help them along to not able to foresee what risk each threat type presents to the company here's MC breaking down into kinds of insiders in first one is just users like you for example fingerprint out then you can read on the train right back home or sending insider the smaller than the makes how bad intent and actually into makes a big impact and the steelers need something that they shouldn't do so recalled email coming from outside and the end of compromise Mecca vegetables and call just from the get go I don't think you have to like treat your employees like adversaries all of the time rapid seven but the thing with with insider threat controls is so like for example let's say I you know send employees like a fishing link or something I'm the inside from their workstation using their own user account and now I can start acting talking about insider threats is not so much like the people that you trust but it's the user accounts scrunched employees wanting revenge to the inadvertent like the Nubian accounts food the idea of internal monitoring setting that they trust their employees Dr Richard Right because also you know if you have if you do somehow accidentally get a wolf I think most companies should recognize that they intentionally a target you enter your company or even apply for that job with the whole town of battle with right so this whole concept of fraud which is perpetrated by but now the footprints of those fraudulent transactions so that's fraudulent acts often exist glass-half-empty thing is really rather Fulton that I'm across the big brother watching employees or contractors and that's not the norm internet news programs communication to HR to cybersecurity for the assesses increase in complexity and user interface streamline and simplify I asked Todd Beardsley from rapid seven cyber training was even worth at anymore imagine she's not interested in it in a way that can help protect the company for sure yeah people today than they were even two or three years ago like the threat of fishing like what actually happens like that right like that that kind of attack is now cruise more likely to click on nastiness you know things like that but I do and people people here that in their in their regular day-to-day and do training of like this is what a fishing link looks like and when your email like Google apps suite and other like outlook three sixty five and all those other the the the enterprise can step in explain like what's going on and what does this look like news like who who should should watch the training video you know things like that I because obviously yes when is really important and generating cognitive misers what I mean is that you know when you're trying to accomplish something that's exactly what a social engineer will use to get you out of your gay atn attacker will do is trying to get you on this side often oh can you help me out my boss added to say no by phone sometimes than by email because I actually have a enjoyable you know social norms right so bending or relying on social a on crutches or with your foot in a boot on crutches is great 'cause everybody would actually use the on the proximity fencer it's very effective very simple tight make of course not gonNA take any heed to that so I guess this is where technology comes in you can do with behavioral analytics that you can do with you know you can actually predict fraud or predict misbehavior so these sort of predictive analytics you may know as a program in place so what I'm hearing is fiber training the exposure to insider risks for sure there there is a email control mark does is it these are signals you can put in your DNS records are allowed to impersonate rapid seven dot com because emailed actually doesn't have a bunch of these building controls and all it does is make it obvious when someone is impersonating email that is that is suspicious or just or just you know kick it off to the to the Trashcan like offense is three things one is very important access and they used to access the one that is very important so he calls back to this notion of active and more predictive security you know all the user mold as about as important and put attrocities functions unlike around somewhere around there so you gotta being all the future I asked them to look at their crystal balls and see what they saw I actually liked this question right so so I think first of all right now the the medium has changed the methods of change but the motives and the people around I think technology in some ways makes it easier because it's easy scaling-up potentially we don't recognize for example the cash value the the information that thought on and it's quite shocking to me but most companies I think you know you stop to stop view the world differently when you think about the amount that you are essentially profiling all your users you get a sense of

FBI three years
Presenting Uncover: Satanic Panic

American Hysteria

01:22 min | 5 months ago

Presenting Uncover: Satanic Panic

"Satanic panic okay. Now that I have your attention I need you to check out. Cbc's brand new season of uncover. And guess what they are covering in the nineteen eighties as many of you know. A bizarre and disturbing phenomenon swept North America rumors were swirling about underground satanic. Cults terrorizing remember the stories of teachers flying around the room and kids put in Kiddy pool full of sharks not only that they were allegedly forced to take part in some gruesome satanic rituals everyone including the FBI and even Oprah believed that these children were under attack the brand new season of uncover satanic panic from CBC. Podcast tells a cautionary tale rooted in one tiny prairie town. So if you didn't get enough satanic panic from our short two-part series than you can do a deep dive with CBC podcast which is one of my personal favourite networks. They do some amazing and vital shows. You can find uncover wherever you get your podcasts and as you might guess I couldn't recommend it more such check it out. That was my seat.

Cbc North America FBI Oprah
Kavanaugh confirmation vote on hold amid new FBI probe, Official: Trump "Blames Flake, Democrats" for Kavanaugh delay, Ford lawyer: we welcome FBI investigation of Kavanaugh, but should be no "artificial limits as to time or scope

Erin Burnett OutFront

47:28 min | 2 years ago

Kavanaugh confirmation vote on hold amid new FBI probe, Official: Trump "Blames Flake, Democrats" for Kavanaugh delay, Ford lawyer: we welcome FBI investigation of Kavanaugh, but should be no "artificial limits as to time or scope

"Hi, it's Lisa Ling. I am so excited about this season. We explore such a diverse array of topics. So please join me for another incredible journey BRUCE'S life with Lisa Ling Sundays at ten pm on CNN. Out front next to Trump orders, new FBI investigation into Brett cavenaugh putting the supreme court nominees confirmation on poll how one Republican Senator force Trump's hand plus the confrontation. Everyone is talking about two women who say they're, they are sexual assault survivors today. Take on Senator Jeff flake. Did they change Kavanagh's fate, and Christine. Blasi Ford's families speaks out, how is she coping? And what is fourth reaction to the FBI investigation for sisters in law are my guests. Good evening. Everyone. I'm Kate Baldwin in for Erin Burnett out front tonight. We have breaking news, Donald Trump orders, FBI investigation. The White House says the president has authorized a new FBI background investigation into his supreme court nominee, Brad Kavanagh, and the allegations of sexual misconduct against him. The investigation according to the president will be limited in scope and must be completed in less than a week that timeline now delaying plans for the entire Senate to hold a final vote on Brad Kavanagh. So why the delay it started with one Republican Senator Jeff flake who went from saying, I will vote for cavenaugh this morning at about nine twenty five AM to demanding an FBI investigation before the final vote just hours later, what happened in those few short hours in between this remarkable confrontation. I. Believe me. I didn't tell anyone in your telling all women's data matter that they should just stay quiet because if they tell you what happened to them, you're going to ignore them. That's what happened to me. And that's what you're telling all women in America. They don't matter. They just keep it to themselves because if they told the truth or just help that man to power anyway. Telling all of us. You're telling me right now talking to you and you're telling me. Fixity. You're going to do. You like them. They. Flakes turnabout effectively force President Trump to do something that he vowed that the f. b. I couldn't and shouldn't do. Not for the FBI. If you look at what Joe Biden said, he said they don't do this. I don't think the, I really should be involved because they don't wanna be involved if they wanted to be. I would certainly do that. But as you know, they say this is not really their thing. So if yesterday was historic whirlwind today, we all have historic whiplash. Maharaja was out front for us live on Capitol Hill right now mono where things stand right now. While right now, Republicans, reluctantly agreed to delay vote. That was going to happen early next week to confirm judge Brad Kavanagh. But after flakes dramatic announcement, the public and leaders agreed to allow for that one week time period for the FBI to investigate now what the buys gonna investigate are quote, credible allegations against Brad Kavanagh. It's unclear exactly how many of these accusers will be produce by the FBI. But the Republican senators told me that that's for the f.. The I determine now Kate, the big question is what does not finish investigation by the end of this next week will the Republican Senator Jeff flake agree to move forward? He told me just moments ago that he would believe that will be done. And at that point, the Senate should move forward. Lisa, the Alaska Republican Senator would not go that far. She punted when I asked her directly about that issue, so we'll deal with it at that point. And also what happens if the FAA pro fines, anything untoward in his record and how will the Republicans respond then? So a lot of questions about his nomination in the aftermath of this brother stunning development today, Kate. Absolutely. And this played out in the judiciary committee this morning. You were inside of there as this confusion was playing out, what was it like to be in their motto? Well, Jeff flake was visibly distraught all day long after he'd been confronted by those protesters. He was head his head was in his hands. He was frown. Ning clearly, and he one point got up late in the proceedings went in approaches friend, democrat, Chris, coons, they disappeared for some time. They were having some significant discussions and then coons relaid that message to other Democrats on the committee and that led to more discussions and clear confusion about what exactly would happen leading up for that dramatic moment or flick announce that there should be a delay. It was played out in real time. Flick had not plan this going in. I asked him specifically the protesters force, your change of heart. He said, I cannot quote pinpoint the reason why he said you've gotten a lot of friends who had called him and urged him to do this. And he had a sleepless night last night and ultimately he decided to call for that. Fascinating. Maheu. Thank you so much. Can only imagine what the weekend next week is going to bring out front with me. Now, Frank Bruening New York Times columnists SE Cup, CNN political commentator and host of SE Cup unfiltered and Mark Preston is here's c. n. n.'s senior political analyst, Frank you what Monte said? Because it seems that maybe even Jeff flake is sure what what brought about the turnabout if you will, what do you think though made the difference with Jeff flake and then and the Republicans that then got on board with something that they were not on board with at least publicly which was more investigation. I think Jeff flake has been struggling with this for quite some time. And if you go back to the end of Thursday, the end of the hearings at the everyone in the Jewish Committee spoke, everyone spoke from a very partisan position. If you remember, Jeff flake was the one who stressed there is a lot of doubt here. So he said he's spent a sleepless night. I think during that night he was thinking we don't have any clarity were moving forward trying to decide about a lifetime. Appoint. Into the supreme court. We don't have clarity. I think he was probably struggling with it when he said, let's go ahead when he cast the vote. I don't know if this tipped it, but I think he has been on a course was trying to find a reasonable compromise position. And this came to him and I think this is a reasonable compromise position. I think we eliminate of thanks and credit for coming up with it. I mean, if you listen, if you've been following the step-by-step, it is remarkable how quickly this turnabout today saying, give more time to the investigation. Have another investigation a couple of days that has been asked for quite some time at this point. Do you think that it's possible that these women speaking up to Jeff flake? Yeah, confronting him in that elevator could have changed the course of this whole thing. You know, I've I've interviewed Jeff flake a number of times over the years you have to. I'm sure he is in many ways not meant for this world. This dirty rough and tumble. Partisan uncivil political climate right now. He says it as much this about him, but I think that's real. And so he fascist fashions himself sort of modern day Barry Goldwater who would very much like to bring the disparate parts of the party together. The party in return has said, no, thanks, we're fine, fine. I think he really was impacted by that elevator. Confrontation is off of him when when they if you know him, you know a little you could read on his face how uncomfortable he was how he was in the moment, taking it in. I mean, for anyone to be across from that must, I'm sure be really jarring and disorienting, but to take it in and to be the target of this NS this hostility, the sadness, frustration and anxiety, I think, was very real. And I think like his book, he had a conscience sort of crisis and it became personal. He's also it's important. Remember he's leaving the Senate. He's in his final days, final months of the Senate, and I think he's kind of struggling with the whole idea of what is proper public service. You know what sort of legacy and leaving behind he's in a moment of kind of soul-searching that not all senators usually end of self reflection than they're not all mar. When it comes down to it, what has happened now with this additional investigation. Doesn't this make it all depends on what comes out. Let me put that out there, but doesn't this make it easier for Republicans like Jeff flake or Susan Collins, or Lisa Murkowski to eventually get to? Yes, because the process that they've been talking about is is better if you will. Yeah. I mean, look, there's been a couple of different wars that we have seen before out over the last couple of days. There's been this really internal Washington DC political capital hill war about who has control and how, how are we going to implement a certain process in a way that has decorum in protocol, which by the way there isn't any more in Washington. So there's that war and then there is this political war, but I gotta tell you what they can say, all they want about how there's going to be very strict parameters on this investigation that the f. b. i. is only going to look into Carnell again, what what those are remains to be seen. But that doesn't mean that we're not gonna see all kind of opposition research being thrown out about Brad Kavanagh over the next week that will, in some way, try to influence the likes of Susan Collins or Lisa Murkowski or Jeff flake or Ben Sasse not to support him in the end. So this is going to be really ugly. I think over. The next week. It's really interesting because they're one no vote as of this morning, that had been a question Mark before is democratic Senator Joe Donnelly in red from red state, Indiana, very tough reluctant battle. And the reason he was a no is because according to his statement, the investigation there was no investigation. I have deep reservations about judge Kavanagh's nomination to this lifetime position. And as I state we, as I've said, we have been unable to get only information necessary regarding this nomination despite my best efforts. I look at that and I start wondering, so does this move also make it easier possibly for red state, Democrats to get to? Yes. Which I think which Marcus it makes it easier for a lot of people to get to. Yes, but that all depends on what is found or not found in the next couple of days and it's not just at the FBI will be investigating the media has been all over this and five, six, seven more days is that many more days for us to see headlines that none of us can guess. And it could have as much of an impact on this as whatever the FBI investigation does or doesn't turn the president just ten days ago. It said that the FBI of the FBI this really isn't their thing. That's one of his on this thing now it clearly is he doesn't mean a choice in this matter day. You know, it was so interesting because he was first presented with this new news, I think in real time and maybe had not really heard much about it. And so I imagine his reaction was natural will sure. Okay. Whatever they want to do is fine with me. It was remarkable to see his restraint and discipline and. His civility when talking about professor Ford, for example as a credible witness. But I think all of that just shows how confident he is in Brett Cavanaugh. I don't think that showed sort of losing the grip here. I think he's that confident in brick having all that whatever happens over the next week as historic as it will be. Again, I think he thinks that the end of the day, he's getting his guy into this room court. I wanna show you though Mark what the president said week ago. And then he said today, I let me redo part of a tweet from last week. Of course. He says, quote, I have no doubt that if the attack on Dr Ford was as bad as she says charges would have been immediately filed with the local law enforcement authorities by either or or loving parents. And now today is looking to, this is what the president says. Doc reports testimony. I thought her testimony was very compelling, and she looks like a very fine woman, very fine woman. And I thought that. Testimony. Likewise, was. Really something that I haven't seen before. It was incredible. It was an incredible moment. I think in the history of our country. But certainly she what is a very credible witness. She was a very credible witness, who is this man? How dare you? How dare you ask me to try to make sense of the senseless with with President Trump and what he says today, what he might have said yesterday and what he plans to say. Thousand, right? No, but you know, I mean, look, the bottom line with him is in this is what's really dangerous is that he's angry. He's vindictive, but he's also impulsive. And the last thing is is what scares me the most. Because if you go back to that tweet before him before, even hearing anything from a doctor fort, he went out there and knocked her down, but he does that on every major issue not only here in the US but also with our allies. And that's what is is really concerning to say, guys. Thanks so much. Let's see what happens in the next five minutes out front. Next, the blame game, new details. Just coming in on who President Trump is blaming for having to order the FBI investigation plus the family of pristine Blasi for speaking out what is their reaction to this news? The delay in Kavanagh's confirmation vote, I'll ask them and is the Christine Blasi. Ford is what is the Christine Blasi affect survivors of sexual assault now are telling their stories after yesterday's testimony. Do remember where when and how when you're sexually. So like you never forget. Are you drowning in credit card debt? Now you can have a large portion of your credit card debt forgiven. Get relief today wants to give you free information that shows you how it's a secret. Credit card companies. Don't want you to know about thousands of people have used this program to have millions of dollars in credit card debt medical bills and department store debt, white clean, get relief today. We'll give you the secret to this money saving program. Absolutely. Free. Get relief today provides excellent service proven by their four star rating from the trust pilot call for your free debt forgiveness information. Now eight hundred two zero three zero zero one. Eight. That's eight hundred two zero three zero zero one eight eight hundred. Two zero three zero zero one. Eight. Breaking news, the blame game President Trump blaming Jeff flake and the Democrats for having to order a new FBI investigation of Brett cavenaugh over sexual misconduct allegations. I'm gonna get right over to Jeff zone who's at the White House, Jeff. This is your reporting late tonight. What else are you hearing about what's going on behind the scenes? They're okay. We're hearing that the president was watching this dramatic moment unfold, like all the rest of Washington sort of confused and uncertain. What exactly was going on in the moment, but he held his tongue today as we've been saying all day long, not blaming anyone a publicly, but privately. Of course he's blaming Jeff flake. He's least favourite Senator anyway and also blaming Democrats for this. But the president also was advised earlier today against taking a premature victory lab. In the words of one official, he's been around Washington long enough to know that things happen in the Senate. Even though he wasn't expecting this, they knew something like this would happen. But the reason that he signed that order tonight to essentially that goes against everything. Thing that he's been saying for the last ten days. He had no choice. Mitch McConnell. The Senate Republican leader made it clear to the White House and the president there. Several phone calls this week that they did not have the votes. This is the only way forward on this. But there is a question here tonight. I'm hearing from a lot of Republicans. If this FBI background check is going to come out in a week if it's clean, if there's nothing in it will some of these Democrats who've been complaining so loudly, will they change their minds and vote for him or not? So that is one of the shifts here in the conversation, the White House is going to start doing, but why does visuals also are bracing for what the president might say over the weekend? He's gone after Jeff flake before, and he has a Saturday night campaign rally tomorrow night in wheeling West Virginia could go wrong and the home state of one big question Mark vote, Joe Manchin great to you, Jeff. Thank you so much. Fascinating. I'll from we now former FBI assistant director, Greg brower, and former Justice department official in sex crimes prosecutor Francey. Hey. Guys, it's great to have you back, Greg. Let's talk about what we know which is very little about what this investigation is going to tell. As of now they say the investigation will last no longer than one week. Do you think they can get it done in a week. It's hard to say it's possible, but of course it may be impossible. It all depends on the scope of the reopen background investigation how many witnesses are to be interviewed. And then of course, with each witness interview, it's not uncommon that additional witnesses identified who then have to be interviewed. So this could be a much more complicated, much longer process than a week would allow for. We just don't know at this point Francais you've, you've said that the Senate has all the information that they need. But now we heard today that Mark judge full Blasi. Ford alleges is the soul. I witness to the attack. He says that he will cooperate now with an investigation, aren't there obvious follow ups for him? Now after the hearing things changed. No, I really don't think things have changed at all. This is just a delaying tactic. What you have are obvious allegations that have no credibility. And that is the allegations specifically by Julie Swidnik which marked judge has also denied by the way. So he's denied it. I don't expect him to say anything, but I didn't do it or I wasn't there to the FBI and Greg is completely correct. It is probably impossible for the FBI to conduct any kind of thorough investigation. If you're talking about all three of these women's allegations, if you're just talking about Dr Ford allegations, I think that's an easier matter. I think the FBI can talk to people that have already been named in a week, but as Greg pointed out interviews often lead to other interviews. So where does it end? Well, let's let's dig into this a little bit more because the White House in talking about the additional this additional education I it describes it and I've heard it from senators as well. That must deal with current and credible. Allegations is the terminology that they're using. Greg also limited in scope, and you mentioned scope. So does this reach beyond Ford's allegations? Do you think this does include Debbie Ramirez and Julius, what Nick. Well, we don't know at this point, but I would suggest that that may set up the next fight within the Senate Judiciary committee. I'll I suspect that if the Democrats on the committee believed that the scope is too limited to fairly an adequately follow up on these new allegations and all of them, I suspect they will squawk about this being just more of a an unfair rushed process. And it puts us right back to where we were today, which is a stalemate on the committee and a lot of discomfort on the part of even some Republicans. And so it sort of depends if Democrats don't think this is a full fare reopening. I just think we're going to be right back to fighting about this or at least the Senate Judiciary committee will be when it's finished. Freezing. Who decides the limited scope here who who decides. Well, that's a great question. Kate. Normally it would be the FBI agents conducting the background investigation or the. Criminal investigation. But here you had Senator flake say, very clearly on the judiciary committee floor that he expects it to be limited in scope. So someone besides the f. b. i. has to decide what the scope is. I haven't heard anyone yet. Say what the scope is, and can I just say with respect to Julie, sweating allegations, these are absolutely in credible on their face. You have a woman claiming that she was an eighteen year old, attending high school parties with fourteen fifteen and sixteen year old boys running rape gangs that she continued to attend to the tune of more than ten times and watched minor teens being raped that is absurd on his face. So no, the FBI should not look into that allegation, Greg, but is that who do they decide it? Go ahead, Greg, you're killing me. Let me help with this one in the normal course in my experience in in watching background investigations at the FBI. This is really. A process that's run by the White House. The White House is essentially tells the FBI what it wants done, what scope of investigation wants done, and then the FBI agents go out and do that work, and if necessary, even make preliminary reports back to the White House counsel's off. The president didn't even want additional background check in the first place will that is the problem. Let me let me suggest that had the background investigation was if it was reopened. Let's say a week ago and it was conducted in a way that Democrats on the committee thought was fair than likely. The Democrats would not have had that particular process foul to call to throw a flag on a today, and we'd likely be looking at a vote with Democrats voting. No, if they pose the nominee but not because they thought the process was on fair. So I think in retrospect it looks like the misstep was not reopening last week when it could have been done. I'm starting to wonder. The Democrats sat on this for six weeks. That's the mid starting to wonder. Well, people think that there's going to be clarity. I'm starting to wonder if this conversation is if the cloud is going to be lifted at all. At the end of this at the end of this coming week, you guys we've back and you can tell me great to see you. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. This important night out front for us. Next Christine Blasi Ford's family speaks out after she tells her story, their reaction to the new FBI investigation, her sisters in law, join me next plus the outrage over Kavanagh's, hearing protests shouting down Senator is the new normal. My name is Paul Shirley, and I've gone on a lot of dates. I've noticed something on these dates. I often find myself telling the same stories stories about my mother teaching sex Ed stories about playing college basketball stories about playing basketball and almost dying in the process. We all do this. We tell stories on dates because dates or when we get to explain where we've been in, what we've seen in why we think like we do my name is Paul Shirley, and I hope you'll check out my new narrative podcast stories I tell on dates, you can subscribe for free on apple podcasts or wherever you find your favorite shows. Tonight. Christine Blasi Ford's attorney says that she welcomes an FBI investigation into the allegations against judge Brad Kavanagh, but doesn't want a time limit put on how long investigation last Deborah Katz saying in a statement, this'll read the student part, Dr. Christine Blasi Ford welcomes the step in the process and appreciates the efforts of senators. Flake Rakowski mansion, and Collins, and all other senators who have supported an FBI investigation to ensure it is completed before the Senate votes on judge capitals domination, no artificial limits as to time or scope should be imposed on this investigation out from now, Deborah Ford Peters and Sandra Medlar there, Christine glossy Ford sisters in law, their brother Russell Ford is Christine's husband. Thank you both for being here. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Debra, let me let me start with the news that we're talking about this evening. Your sister in law has said that she is absolutely willing to cooperate with an FBI investigation. The president just ordered one. Do you think this is a good faith effort at getting to the truth. I think it's essential and and very positive. I think Christine presented her her accounting of of the events that happened to her and she deserves for others to be interviewed and for for the truth to come out, Sandra your sister in law described her. She says she experienced in pretty in vivid detail, and one of the most emotional moments during her testimony was when she described she was asked and described what she remembers most from the night of the alleged attack. Listen to this. Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter the lap uproarious laughter between the two and they're having fun at my expense. What was it like listening to that for you? I can tell you, I had tears running down my cheeks. It was so difficult to listen to, and I know a lot of people around the country felt the same way. And so it was a, she was speaking from the heart, and it was a really raw and difficult moment. It was really, really tough. Debra, this is I wanna know what you felt in a moment what you feel even hearing it again. I mean, this is your this is your sister in law, and she said this before the Senate panel before the country before the world. I mean, you now see the images of how many people were listening in. What were you feeling at that moment? I was extremely moved. I love Chrissy I've, I've heard her talk about many different kinds of feelings or genuinely I can feel her pain really, and. I just was impressed by her bravery and. I just felt like I was right there with her in the pain as I think a lot of people probably felt. Did you both listen then afterward to judge caverns testimony? Yes, yes. All the way through. Yes, I listened to most of it, not all of it all the way through. Yes. Is it because you couldn't or you just. I actually had a commitment and I couldn't listen to the rest of it. It was difficult to listen to. I think it's okay to discontinue a little bit. I think when I listened to to cavenaugh speak to me, it was so different than listening to Christine, speak and. And it was hard in the evening to hear the discussion about the two of them speaking because. I felt like the two experiences of listening to them were so different one was offering to share everything she could recall, and the other was. They have and. Very different tone. So I felt like they were very different testimonies. It was interesting to hear commentary that they were both so so similar in their emotional impact. I wonder. I think that was just something that was very confusing to me reflecting on this. There wasn't after the fact. I'm sorry there. Denver there was. There was a moment when judge cavenaugh talked about your sister in law, he became emotional when he did own a play that for you, listen to this. And little lies all ten years old. Said to Ashley, we should pray for the woman. We mean no ill will. What do you say to them? I had a hard time understanding his emotions. So I think it sounds nice that he has no ill will, but it seemed kind of out of place and. I didn't feel like he was really relating to her as a person. Most of the time there wasn't much narrative about how they knew each other or. How this might have gotten interpreted by him versus her. So I felt like he was extremely defensive even to the point of being belligerent earlier, and then he would come out with this emotion. It just didn't seem very cohesive in the narrative. Debra, how about you? I mean, Sandra, how about you? Yeah, I thought it was a really confusing set of ideas that were being put forward and. And I, it is hard to explain to a ten year old what's happening, and I'm sure that it's really difficult to be confronted with experiences from earlier in his life, and there may be, you know, really a lot of feelings about confronting that experience earlier in his life. And I think the important thing is that this testimony in this hearing was about his character and that to me seemed like an attempt to show a side of his character and wasn't very persuasive to me. I think that. That would have been what would have been more persuasive to me would have been to hear him being open to exploring an open to having point of view and open to having a greater conversation with more people involved. That would have been way more persuasive. Debra, given all that your family has been through your sister-in-law, your brother children have been through. If if judge cavenaugh is confirmed to the supreme court. Will it have been worth it. It's interesting. I had my son's with me yesterday home from school, twelve years old and fifteen years old, and they were watching the whole thing and they were so impressed by their by their aunt and so learning about this process and and what it's like to be brave, what it's like to speak publicly, what it's like to have emotions and try to manage that their hearts were just bursting for her. And so I feel like there's tremendous learning and all of this for all of us, and I felt grateful that we could do that together. And yeah, I think absolutely. That. Speaking truth and being silenced and not being intimidated, not hiding. Your truth has been an amazing lesson for my kids and for myself as well. Debra, Sandra, thank you so much for sharing with us tonight. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you coming up for us out front next outrage across the United States as Senator flake warns, the country is being torn apart. Is he right? Plus too key Republican senators who could decide Kavanagh's fate here from their voters. Howard Beck, and I've got Ben Gulliver of Sports Illustrated fun. Bleacher reports the full forty eight like you get over coach police. So you know, we're not really like violent, but what I look at what kind of a tree hundred from Oregon, right? But when I look at this Lakers trading, it feels like the both likely place in the league that fits five will break out at some point. So check out the full forty eight. Now on Bleacher report, podcasts and Spotify. It wasn't extraordinary moment caught on tape today to women who say they're survivors of sexual assault, confronting Republican Senator Jeff flake as he was getting into an elevator on Capitol Hill. This was just minutes after he'd announced his intention to vote in favor of judge Brad Kavanagh for the supreme court. This is not tolerable you have children in your about them. I have two children. I cannot imagine that if for the next fifty years, they will end up the free course who has been accused file ending young girl. What are you doing sir? So anyone in your telling all women got fatal matter that they should just stay quiet. Fast forward. A few hours flick spearheads a movement to force the additional FBI investigation that is now underway. Now editor of the national review which Lowry and host of state of resistance. Podcast, state arisen says podcast, Sally Kohn, great to see you guys. Thanks for coming in. Which the video of Jeff like that would that was a cut down version of it went on and it was uncomfortable. You can see it on Jeff on Jeff lakes face. He later then tells Jeff Koons that he's concerned that they are tearing the country apart this whole thing, I think. Do you think he's right? Do you think this episode is doing that? Yeah. If our politics is more emotional in vitriol IQ than ever and you see more of these kinds of personal confrontations now these these women obviously weren't threatening, but you see things like Ted Cruz in a restaurant where we have goons confronting him and your couple inches away from some sort of physical confrontations. I think we're going down a road where public officials will probably need almost constant security and it's a very bad thing for this country and sign of how the political debate is going off the rails. Do you think it's a bad thing for the country yesterday you were you were arrested protesting outside the capitol in between the spring. In the capital, do you think it's bad thing with his head. I think there are a lot of things that are headed of bad direction. I don't think the American people standing up and fighting back and demanding country that respects women a court process, a court appointment process that considers the facts ways. The evidence. I don't think that's part of the problem. I think that's part of the solution. This is a country that was founded on protests literally. I mean, if we've been having this conversation back during the bus not party, you'd be saying, well, they were destroying property. This is how change happens. It's uncomfortable, it's ugly, it's messy. It's just like democracy. And if you don't like the people are showing up and protesting. Then you know what don't do the stuff that protesting. Those people are using outrageous tactics because what's happening our country is out Regis and people are incredibly upset and feeling credibly kicked out of the process by Republicans, and by Trump problem with protests can carry all the signs you want. You can have demonstrations, I don't like going into people's private space and. Fronting them at their homes or at restaurants, and you say, we have process about what the facts are. What are the facts support? Doctor Ford's accusation. I wasn't focused on. That's the question that I don't think really can be answered because there are no facts support her version of story. This is so interesting. There's this thing called an FBI investigation. We may. One of the facts. What are the factors supporters? I'm actually we. We can have the conversation if you'd like to have. Can you name one because we need just quickly on it. Cyclically won any of the people in had it look and other words, there are no. At the moment, there are none. So you're telling rich where we are today is the American Bar Association. Once more investigation, Jeff flake wants more investigation. Others are welcoming more investigation. Something's changed. Something's convinced them that they want to have more investigation. I mean, you look at the video of Jeff flake being confronted. Phil Mattingly just spoke with Jack Jeff flake. Asked him if these protesters were what impacted him in this evolution, if you will and how they got from point a. to point b. and back to point a, I don't know where where they got today. Listen, what Jeff flake, listen to this. The protestors countered play a role in everything I've seen and experienced. The last couple of weeks had been packed. It's it's been everything. It did impact him. Do you fall under flake? I think he's making mistake. I think clearly the Democrats have a partisan interest and delay which attempted to do throughout this process as a practical matter what they FBI will do in this week. Long investigation is end up interviewing the people who've already been interviewed in interviewed under penalty of felony. They're they're so far is no fact is even sell Sally by implication admits to support this account from thirty six years ago that is only her memory and her memory is contradicted by the people. She places at the party all for people that. No member is different than contradicting number one. Number two. I'm sorry, rich, but first of all, I of all I'm disturbed. I think the American people have disturbance. Certainly women are disturbed. What women in this country will be. It will be subject to sexual assault and lifetime, and you had Republicans hatch. Grit. You had Republicans on the committee saying, we'll hear the testimony, but we don't care or even if did this even if I'm sorry. Orrin Hatch said, even if Kevin did this, we should consider and said, I'm sorry that he's still have good man today. Now that is ridiculous and offensive. There are two things that the Senate has to do. One is they have to decide if this man is qualified both technically and ethically morally to lifetimes appointment windows, second, Richard, second of all, do this a weight, and we have to do it in a way that makes it clear to the American women in this country that if they are salted, they should feel comfortable speaking up and not Smith. So the nothing at the FBI finds no facts, you'll support his confirmation. Absolutely. The facts matter deal negative, wait a second that they match. I was not supporting before these allegations. Will you hold post for those reasons? Not for those reasons. I was opposed to his nomination because we only have ninety three percent of its record and because he's made sense. Let me just say one thing out in terms of facts. Sound like there could be none of us know the scope of this investigation. We could be additional people that are interviewed Mark judge could be interviewed in this so and saying, they're only gonna interview people who are they. Under penalty Sony, but that is not being interviewed or having followed by. That goes and she says she will. It's like facts them have investigation you support that gets the. Guess what we say here nearing. One thing we do know is there will sing investigation how my smearing women stop making. Just listen to me. They're going to have an investigation. We'll see where we end up after that. Back and we'll have another fight about great to see you. Thanks. Coming up tonight. One of the women who confronted Senator play joins Anderson Cooper in the next hour wanna see that we'll be right back. Kant's providence head coach Ed Cooley is on March mantis three sixty five. I'm excited about the group nervous in one fence because of our inexperience in the back court. But. Athleticism are length and toughness. It's much is three sixty five now at apple podcasts and Spotify. Tonight, all eyes on onto female Republican senators, and whether they will vote to confirm judge cavenaugh Senator, Susan Collins of Maine, Lisa Murkowski Alaska both under intense pressure from their voters back home right now. Kaley heart tongue is out front. There are several people in the hallway. So some would mind kind of tree in places tension, so high and Senator Susan Collins, Portland office today, cops were called to keep the peace. In maine. Into Lasca home of Senator. Lisa Murkowski. Hey. Tears and Boz Lawrence. The public campaign to convince the two undecided Republican senators to oppose Brett cavenaugh nomination to the supreme court. That's huge in some ways because all comes down to the senators for Maine in Alaska. And yet on the other hand, she just needs to do the right thing like this shouldn't actually be discussion. It shouldn't even be. It shouldn't even be difficult decision. I'm democrat and I voted for her. I was one of the people who signed in her name when she said she was going to stand stand up for women. I would never vote for her again, the effort to persuade Collins hausky also playing out on television in their home states, Susan Collins, it's your party. That's mistaken. In Portland, April Humphry organized. A sit in she hoped would draw fifteen to twenty people. Instead hundreds showed up. So many people come on such notice. It just was, we're Ganic, it's this was not some sort of concerted effort to mobilize people and get people out. People want to come out and they want their voices to be heard, and they feel like voices aren't being heard. Protesters gathered in the plaza outside the office and soon packed inside the senator's office. I'm right here. I'm right here. It's okay. One. Staffer inundated patiently taking notes and trying to keep order again, pass on comments, Senator Collins, I have called her office seventeen times a day. I was travelling overseas and even turn to call through my Skype account and her voice bunches have been fold. But I wanted my thinks to be seen and my voice to be hurt. Protesters came out in mass in Portland today to voice their passionate opposition to break Cavanaugh. But we also spent time speaking to people who work here to protest. Just the people who live here work here and who vote here while there was mixed opinions among them of judge Cavanaugh. What we found was generally a very similar opinion of their Senator Susan Collins. One man saying he can't tell her which way to vote one way or the other. He says, that's why he voted her into office to make those difficult decisions. But Kate another similarity among many of them, the concern that if she votes yes, for Brett Kevin, oh, it could be incredibly damaging to political career here and once alerted air is all over the country is how many people are watching and paying attention to this decision. Thanks, Kaley, really appreciate it out front. Next why sexual assault survivors are now flooding phone lines and sharing their stories. I would actually help at fifteen, and I was told by adult to keep my mouth shut. Is this because of Christine? Blasi four. Harlow podcast people do and that voice of SIMS on left co. You know us from a podcast called Simpson left co, but now we got a new show. We get a little different since we're of going to be big time. Gonna talk ball, gonna, talk sports and culture too. I'm gonna teach SIMS. The internet. We're gonna have players onset. We're going to go out and mess with them. It's going to be a lot of fun. It is. We're going to be on the streets. We're gonna be talking to fans. We're gonna try to educate everybody and have a good time. So check it out the be our app ATM's on Wednesday, eight PM shut up. For somebody listening to the heart wrenching testimony of Christine blase for has reopened. Some deep and very painful wounds people across the country are now sharing their own stories of sexual assault on social media. Women even calling into C-SPAN to talk about their experiences. Watch this. Seventy six year old woman who was sexually molested in the second grade. This brings back so much pain. You never forget what happened to you. You can hear for pain and the national sexual salt hotline is now reporting a two hundred percent increase in calls yesterday compared to a typical day. Two hundred percent Keeley Sorenson. She's the vice president of victim services for rain the rape abuse, and incest, national network. It runs the hotline. She says, worker workers, reporting unprecedented, wait times. What's really interesting is the number of people reaching out to us in this moment with the variety of stories, but particularly over a third of them are making a first time disclosure to us. And so we are hearing a lot of the same threads that we see in the media right now through Dr. Ford story also playing out in the national sexual assault hotline. And Sorenson tells us that she expects extreme volume of calls to continue thought. It was important that you know a three sixty starts now. There was no one like Anthony Dame. There was new show, parts, unknown. Any ward winning CNN original series returns for one last ride around the world. Can Indonesia to story is Spain. Are west Texas to the lowly side chairs, Anthony, bourdain parts are known the final episodes Sundays at nine on CNN.

Senator Jeff flake FBI Senator Brad Kavanagh Dr. Christine Blasi Ford FBI president Senate Senator Susan Collins assault Brett cavenaugh President Trump Kate Baldwin Ford CNN supreme court Debra Greg brower White House Washington
The Scientist and the Spy - China, the FBI, espionage, and racism

Science Friction

31:16 min | 2 months ago

The Scientist and the Spy - China, the FBI, espionage, and racism

"This is an ABC podcast. So this story starts in Midwest America Iowa Corn Country and this was in a suburb of Des Moines. This is stranger in the middle of Corn Field appearance in that field. Alarmed the farmer own the land but this is no ordinary cornfield and he called the police and the men is no ordinary trespasser. They came shortly after words. Squad cars Interrogated him and kind of sent him and two colleagues who were also in the area on their way but that was just the beginning later an FBI agent found the field report. That the sheriff's deputies showed up and match it with similar in another cornfields. Something big was brewing. Very big and that set off a two year. Fbi investigation that spans multiple states involved aerial surveillance planes flying overhead and airport busts. Hello Natasha Mitchell here with you for science fiction where it? My guess is weak is investigative science journalist with the intercept Mar Vista dolls. Look Mahras lightest book is a phenomenal raid in the scientist and the spy the true story of China the FBI and industrial espionage on it got me at the title she charts a case that has tendrils into present day USA where the trump administration and the FBI a now targeting Chinese scientists working in American institutions. Some for many years and of course. This all has resonance this week for a Stra. Two as online relationship with China is being tested over both covered nineteen and tried concerns so Mara joins me today. Voss Scott so I was living in China when I first read about this case I was working for science for the news section of the Journal. So that meant that I spent days but scientists and knew a lot about the investments that had gone into tiny science over the over the preceding years at. This isn't the first time that I saw these sorts of activities really Criminalize in the United States and it turned out that the case against Robert Mo was one of many that would be brought over the coming years. Fighting economic espionage is and P theft from China has become one of the top priorities of the FBI. So there are now. Dozens of cases brought each year. Fbi Director Christopher. Reeve recently said that there were over a thousand active investigation wanted officedepot some SI- racial profiling. Is it work? Others argue that the theft of trade secrets fraud economic espionage are real threats. That need to be investigated. And we'll come back to that but let's get back on that farm. It was run by two brothers own heart of it. They were contracted by the agricultural giant. Monsanto to grow genetically modified inbred Corn Sade. Which could then be used to create the commercial hybrids that? Make Monsanto big money. The field was unmatched top secret. Its contents commercial in confidence. One of the main trespassing. That day was chinese-born Robot Mall. Robert had lived in the United States for years had a wife and two children and Typical kind of suburban lifestyle in Florida. And so in many ways had really become American Have not bothered to get his citizenship. His colleagues had flown in from China and they were for a Beijing agricultural firm called DB N. D. N. produces corn seed like Monsanto and had this aspiration to steal cutting edge research from US companies and reverse engineer the seed back in China but it was rather hare-brained scheme and it ended up taking Robert and his colleagues on all these twists and turns as they tried to outsmart the FBI and Mara has spent four years following those twists and turns from the country. She'd come to call home as a reporter China to the country. She grew up in America. And it's Midwest where her father had been an agricultural reporter so her two worlds effectively collided in this case. Just back in Shanghai though you were there reporting at an extraordinary time for the rise and rise of science and technology in China and I wanted to what extent that head also filled into agricultural research because of course China is the world's top importer of corn and soy. And they're reliant on. Us IMPORTS AREN'T Bay to meet their needs. Yes imports from the United States from Brazil from other countries. I knew there was a big emphasis on improving the quality of Chinese crops. I also knew that. Gm food genetically modified crops. Were not allowed to be sold commercially. In part because of a series of of different food safety scandals of Chinese people were really reluctant to accept them. And one of the interesting things about these cases that didn't involve genetically modified seeds. And so this company. De Vienne was targeting. Research that they expected would eventually be legalized in China. You know really looking ahead several years to see what would be coming next. That is a very interesting aspect of case because GM corn is widespread. It's the norm across. America isn't it and take us then from China to the central waste. Hello have agribusiness. Giants Melt Monsanto Dupont. Hell of they operated in the region and how of they driven GM corn as a as a phenomenon. In America when I started looking in this case the FBI's effort to fight industrial espionage was reading presented as a way to protect American innovation. Protect American research but the more I looked into it I guess. Driving around the Midwest Retracing Robert Steps also retracing the steps of the FBI agent in the case and a year or two of my research. I met a an American farmer and seat. Breeder could actually been in a thrust into the middle of the case. He had briefly had a job for DB on as a consultant at some point Robert Than his colleagues bought a farm in Illinois and tried to pose as farmers and this man Kevin Montgomery was hired to clans feeds on that farm and was unaware of the illegal activity that was going on he eventually was turned into an FBI. Informant and through him. I came to understand all of the change that has happened in the seed industry over over the past few decades. He'd actually lost his job in the major company when the company was acquired by another one so he was a victim of downsizing in the industry and that has been a huge problem where over the past few decades we've gone from dozens of seed companies a global issue as well to just four today that that control. The vast majority of the market and farmers have been squeezed by this trend. It's also affected. The quality of research. this other trend happening in this industry. I wear found that actually the FBI had taken on a case on behalf of a company that was essentially very anti competitive For many people around the world the name Monsanto is very fraught and I was also drawn to the fact that the companies is a rather unlikely victim in that there might be a more complex story beneath the story that was presented in the in the case documents in fact what Mara reports is that an antitrust inquiry into Monsanto which today is no longer in American hands. It's now owned by. Bayer was mysteriously dropped by the US Department of Justice just as the FBI was pursuing. Its case against Robert Mall and his Chinese colleagues. Let's meet Robert Mo better muddy. Who's is I think if B I dubbed he had been code-named Code Nine. He had to scientific. Phd's neither in agriculture. How did he come to be working for this? Massive seed in agribusiness company being Beck in China and and then in America are basically through nepotism. His sister was married to a billionaire. Who is a CEO OF DB N? And he had this kind of classic academic story where he finishes second PhD and looked for an academic job and then failed to find a tenure track position. And then turn to a life of crime but it wasn't. It wasn't quite that direct you know. He found this job through his sister. At first everything scenes perfectly fine and legal news doing things like sourcing ingredient for swine feed and sending it back to China but then a year or so into his time at the company. His boss comes to him and asks him to start. Swiping seeded specific seed lines from From fields in the Midwest and not just any fields. I mean. This was an incredibly brash thing to do with talking stealing intellectual property from two corporate giants to Lati- GIS corporate giants deporting and Monsanto. It was a pretty bold plan that they hatched. It was also rather harebrained. I one point Roberts and his colleagues tried the sentenceed back to China in microwave popcorn bags intercepted by the FBI in an airport bus. They had this just absurd cat and mouse game that was being played with federal agents of over the span of years But they were very persistent very determined to get the seed in probably in the end they they did get some of it now. What are they planning to do with the seeds that they taken from these fields when they got them back to China? What was the science of the mission will to make a hybrid seeds? You need both in bread. Parents once back in China the idea of what the US government allege was that would reverse engineer the seed line so the idea is that dv n had somehow learned which male needed to be combined with which female they could breed those two in breads together in China to create the hybrids that they wanted to the mission was to ultimately have a more productive crop of the ilk that Monsanto and dupont were managing to create. That's right so it takes decades to get a good stock of high quality inbred seeing in countries like the states companies. Have that they've been they've been Breeding those in breads for decades in China. The imbredded breads available are notoriously low quality. And so it wouldn't. It makes sense that a Chinese company would try to get its hands on in breads from from a country like the United States will was rogue Mo- convicted of in the end. He was the only only person convicted in this case yes. He was convicted of economic espionage. Which is a relatively new crime in the United States? It's only a feral fence. Since Nineteen Ninety S. It's a charge. That's now very often used for cases involving China and Technology. And this is where things get interesting because you started out to report the case of Robert Mall but this took you much much further than one case into a much much deeper and fixed history of the way in which the FBI has investigated ethnic Chinese scientists working and studying in the USA. That's right I mean I was. I was drawn to this case. Initially because the scope of the investigation seem somewhat out of proportion with the offense of stealing corn and then after I started looking into it I realized that in order to understand the case I really needed to go back and understand the history of the FBI investigations of ethnic Chinese scientists in. That's a long fraught. History goes back to the Nineteen S. A prevailing attitude in some American Kendra intelligence circles for a long time. Was the Chinese spying worked. It was dubbed the one thousand grinds of Sand theory so rather than sending intelligence operatives to collect buckets of sand off a beach sending a thousand individuals students sales scientists or engineers to or saving to collect a grain of information each eventually i. I did learn in doing my research that there was an actually dedicated. Fbi Program to survey will ethnic Chinese scientists in the United States many of them were US citizens. This is something that happened in the nineteen seventies when it ended but I in the process of my reporting obtained A number of previous then released documents on this program and what was most interesting to you. Think this suspicion that has followed ethnic Chinese researchers over the decades even when they are you know second or third generation American they still often come under the suspicion of of the US government. And I understand that Robert Mugabe was guilty of what he was accused of doing of stealing trade secrets but his case did raise all these interesting questions. That are coming up. In similar cases sends his case is just one of many that have have been brought over the past ten years and you look at the recent past of Chinese scientists targeted and reveal some highly flawed even flaky investigations in some cases. Yes right in. Even in the past few years there have been cases where a researcher was charged and then a few months later it turned out that the FBI had not properly checked. The science in the case in the case fell apart. So that is what happened with. Ceo Seen See for example he was the interim chair of the physics department at Temple University in Philadelphia. He was charged with several felonies for transferring technology to China and it turned out that his communications with a lab in China were all fairly standard science cooperation issues. And in this is an issue that comes up again and again. In cases that many scientists in many fields are encouraged to collaborate with researchers in other countries in China and elsewhere and often. It's not clear where the line is. A new institutions are now trying to make that clearer in a number of cases the FBI has made mistakes and people's lives have been ruined. It's been interesting watching an you report on this. The work of the Chinese American community in trying to become active around this issue and trying to advocate for Chinese Americans who are being targeted by the FBI. That's right the the sheer number of cases that have been brought in the past two years and then Especially under the trump administration. There's been a renewed effort to bring cases involving China. And that is really galvanized on community of not just Chinese American scientists. But other community organizers who are concerned about history repeating itself and and having a case like the the went holy one of the late nineteen ninety s where You know turned into kind of a massive national issue and President Clinton all took ultimately Went Afars to apologize to win. Hales's remarkable tasos remind people case was he was a researcher at Los Alamos National Laboratories of One of the nuclear laboratories and there are several issues with that investigation but one is that it it really started with this assumption within the US. Government that China had stolen weapons secrets and then there was a search for whom I have stolen the secrets eventually. Investigators landed on when holy and many people feel like that was very unfair leap and escalated out of control. He was held in solitary confinement for many months and there was just a an enormous outcry as a result of the way. It was handled. You've also drilled into much more recent cases under the current trump administration over the last wolf threes. And the Siamese happening again and perhaps the most disturbing of all is the National Institutes of health one of the US as peak research agencies has started investigating has been investigating staff under the FBI's direction. Tell us watch that has revealed have legitimate cases being revealed the there's been a a very vigorous efforts within the The NIH to root out grant fraud and there were a number of researchers who had affiliations or have affiliations with Chinese institutions in Chinese grant programs. That they did not report so there was an issue with fraud. There may still be among some people. the concern is about the way that it's been handled and It's been highly criminalized In some cases the FBI caused a certain amount of confusion by going into institutions and doing these months-long into investigations and then it turns out that nobody's charged with a crime and many people just feel like they have been cast under polyp suspicion I think in popular mind to for a lot of people. Grant fraud has been conflated with economic espionage if I theft and in many cases it's not clear that because somebody was going to double dipping basically. We're taking money from the Chinese government and from the US government at the same time. It's not clear that that means that they were stealing. Ip An important distinction to make it is not okay to commit fraud but there may be a better way to to deal. Many people are pushing have anything to worry about are scared and under the trump administration in general is fairly xenophobic and trump has made a number of questionable statements about China and about Chinese American students and Chinese students so the combination of those two phenomenon is that there's just a pall of a fear that's been cast over many institutions and have resolved many scientists being extremely worried and you know certainly right now with the outbreak of scope in nineteen in this and quite a lot of anti Asian sentiment and hate incidence rising around the world. It's quite a hard time to be a member of the community. How hard was this story to report for you? Mara on the one hand you'll probing with. Racism is fueling paranoia about Chinese scientists and scholars in America but on the other hand trade secrets. Fifty industrial espionage economic espionage. Can Happen does happen. And it happens in China a lot. It seems to be partly driven and encouraged by the Chinese leadership even in the quest to become scientific and market leaders saying the Chinese government looks the other way quite a lot of the time. There's this priority. On achieving breakthroughs at all costs and a willingness to disregard abuses as they happen and right now. I think we're at this worrying moment. Where the United States and China are mirroring each other and behavior to some degree where both countries are led by nationalistic leaders who are intent on consolidating their power. Certainly the Chinese system is more authoritarian than the US. When at this point but it is has a lot of people worried about the direction that the two countries are headed. is in science in research are really shaping up to be a major flashpoint in that relationship. Sometimes these investigations can have the effect of driving people back to China. In some cases the people leave may have done something that they do not. WanNa talk to the FBI about But there are other cases where for example there collaborators. The people they work with day to day To deal with suddenly being called in for FBI interviews in Being the subject of suspicion and those people just got fed up and left because they they feel like they're suddenly target when they have not done anything wrong and it's incredibly difficult isn't it because the world wants a piece of China China wants a piece of the world and especially so in the scientific community. Collaboration is such a vital aspect of the work that goes on West and scientists collaborate with with Chinese scientists. All the time. Should we be skeptical of a security threat being posed by all of these collaborations? That's the sort of tone that is playing out in America right now right and I do think that researchers need to be more careful about these relationships you know there are incidences incidences. Where collaboration doesn't make sense? It is really not worth it for for researchers to be maintaining ties with Chinese institutions that. They're hiding also and for a long time. Nothing was done about about the issue visit naive eighties there among scientists about the biggest geopolitical backdrop on which these collaborations occur. I think they're losing that night in the in the United States. Because you know really. Cova nineteen break that is essentially a scientific issue in which is in which research in China's being thrust into the spotlight and collaboration could be critical to things like developing a vaccine. But it will also were more likely will enter this period of intense competition and already. We see nations becoming more nationalistic withdrawing into their borders. And that will likely continue to happen with research as well is in a great proportion of America's scientific community comes from China. A great proportion of Grad students come from China. That's right so whatever we do to deal with this issue of Ip we have to acknowledge the contributions of that community and address the issue in a way that does not alienate a large part of our research for us. Same thing with Chinese students. The trump administration has made some blanket statements at one point even reportedly considering banning all students from China and could have a really Negative effect on on our institutions. Where is Robert Mo today? What's his situation now? Robert Wall is right now. Actually in an immigration detention facility which most people's as far worse than federal prison and many of these places. Now have some significant outbreaks of Covet. Nineteen so that is Unfortunately where where? He ended up ultimately though he will be deported. Yes ultimately be deported. But I don't know that anyone for saw when this all started that you'd have a global pandemic in MTV's now there indefinitely and it's very hard for people to communicate with them. There are no visitors allowed as I understand and limited communication to but he could be there for many months and you mentioned plans for his future. Does he have a next stint when I when I met with him in prison? He told me that he was planning to go back to China and write a book and that he wanted to call it. Catch that Chinese spy. Oh Gosh and whether any consequences for the company that he worked for his sister's you know the company that he and he ceased to work for debut in this multibillion dollar agribusiness Chinese agribusiness giant. No Deanne is doing fine. Their stock prices took a slight dip after Robert was arrested. But they rebounded They fight other ups and downs. That are apparently unrelated to this case. Agriculture in general has been affected by the trade war with the United States. But there's no. It's not evident at all that. This case had any impact on the company just on Robert and his family. Congratulations on the investigation. It's it's a compelling raid. Yeah Extraordinary Times that we leave in thank you so much Mara for joining me. Thank you science journalist Mar Vista. Del Joining me from her home in. Minneapolis via skype. Her latest book is the scientist and the spy the true story of China the FBI and industrial espionage published by Penguin. Random House. Love to hear from you. Talk to me on twitter at Natasha Mitchell or emails from the science fiction website. The show is produced by me and Jane Lee. Tell the world about the podcast for us to do. There's always more in the podcast edition by the way. Then you'll hear on ABC radio national h week but catches whichever way by now you've been listening to an ABC podcast discover more great ABC. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on the ABC Listen Up.

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AP One Minute Headlines Jan 22 2019 17:00 (EST)

"Shutdown drags on. I'm McGuire within AP news minute. The Senate is expected to vote Thursday to packages on the partial government shutdown. It's doubtful. Either will pass I will be President Trump's proposal that includes five point seven billion dollars for border security, including his wall. Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer dismisses that plan president's proposal is one-sided harshly partisan and was made in bad faith. But Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell reject. This proposal Democrats would have to prioritize political combat with the president ahead of federal workers. The second vote will be on a house passed plan to temporarily reopened the government through February eighth had of the FBI agents association. Tom O'Connor says while the shutdown drags on FBI agents are not being paid and their investigations have been hampered failure. The FBI is making it more difficult for us to do our jobs to protect the people of our country from criminals and terrorists. I'm.

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