13 Episode results for "Executive Vice President And Chief Operating Officer"
The Past Lives Podcast Ep104 Susie Levan
"This is the past life. Podcast episode one hundred and four. I'm your host SAM inbound my mission here. The past lives podcast. It's investigate evidence that demonstrates survival of the human soul life near death experiences spirit communication another incredible phenomena. I want to say thank you to everyone that signed up to the Patriot campaign since I started patron of being able to buy new laptop and monitor these have made. The production of poke cost much more efficient on patriots for five dollars a month. You'll get access to the forty five bonus episodes in the catalog a bonus episode every week. Plus of course a number of extended episodes in the two dollar. You get a bonus episode. Every month you can become a patron by going to patron dot com forward slash pass lives. Poke cast will kick on the Patriot button on my homepage. A pass lives hypnosis. Dot Co UK. You'd be welcome to join. The past lives pocus facebook group. There have been a couple of fascinating posts about children with past life. Memories recently on is always good to communicate with everyone. They're the focused is on Youtube. There's no video it's just the audio. It's another way to access the episodes if you want to this week. I'm talking to Suzy Levin about her book getting to forgiveness. What's a near death? Experience can teach us about las resilience and love. Suzy was executive vice president and chief operating officer in a mile dominated. Nyse Company for sixteen years after her near death experience in nineteen eighty eight allies. Work has been teaching the importance of meditation and Helping Women Live their best lives. She's an author. Certified Nondenominational Pastoral Counselor hypnotherapist teacher of Meditation Life Coach. I'm raking master teacher. Hi susie thanks a lot for coming onto the past and give me your time. Thank you Simon. I would look forward to being here with you. So we're going to be talking about your book getting to forgiveness you discuss your NDA and what led up to that. Could you just tell us though? Have you had an interest in these kind of spiritual things actually Simon? I have not and you know it's interesting. How the universe Throws things at you that all of a sudden changes your life forever and for me a date. I'll never forget his December twenty first nineteen eighty-eight where my own life ceased to exist in fact it was obliterated and like everyone we all have a story and nineteen eighty eight. It was a huge. I married the love of my life in September of that year and three months later life as I had known it for thirty eight years was upended in ways that I never knew existed when you talk about near death experience so you know there's really a fundamental idea in medicine and psychology that the path your life takes depends on three causes. How you manage your challenges. How you protect your vulnerabilities and and how you increase your resources. And what I have found as these causes or located in three places your world your body and your mind and my husband at the time in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight was the CEO of a local bank and my seven year old daughter from a previous marriage in Iowa. Target of bank robbery and kidnapping Asari. How did the kidnapping begin? So I was an executive for Sixteen Years Chief Operating Officer of a public company New York Stock Exchange Company. And so you can. Well imagine that being in the metaphysical world or the spiritual world or even a near death. Experience was not something that I actually had done a lot of reading about new anything about for that matter so unfortunately what happened was that these three gunmen came three days before Christmas to Make pretend to deliver a point set of plant to my home. I was now about an hour away in Fort Lauderdale where my home was in Miami and The these men just rang the doorbell my housekeeper. Babysitter excuse me and my daughter were home was about four o'clock in the afternoon and they unlocked the door. Turn off the alarm and now they're in our home. Three men dressed in red white and blue with WIG. John with truckers hats with sunglasses and of course automatic weapons. These men also had apparently been casing other bankers homes so we just happened to be the lucky one that opened the door. I guess and then you came home and found them there. Was there any kind of a feeling when you're heading home when you got to the House that something might be wrong? The answer is yes like I told my husband. I I normally would call the house at about six o'clock to check in on my daughter to let her know what time I would be home and to see how her Dane school was at she taken a shower gone to dinner etc or had dinner and My housekeeper answered the telephone and it was a very stilted call and was very Almost one word answers to my questions and and then I asked to speak to my daughter where she then said to me that she was already sleeping and in bed. Now Mind you. It was six o'clock in the afternoon. A seven year. Old is not sleeping at seven o'clock in the afternoon so I knew something was just not right but I couldn't figure out what it was and I proceeded. Then tell my husband that I wanted to go home. That something wasn't right which he then said to me. I was just you know obviously a very silly woman and Worry about things that obviously you know. have no meaning and and yeah. I'm just reading into this. And so now we. The time has come and it's about ten ten o'clock at night. We are now driving home and we know arrive in our home and normally all the lights are on outside the foyer. Light is on the The outside patio lights the garage lights. Nothing is on the house is totally pitch black and I immediately say don't you can realize that there's something already different. And he said well maybe she just forgot to turn on the lights because my housekeeper was living nanny and so I and so again he was questioning my my knowing that there was something wrong. So I don't normally stand behind him as he unlocks the door and of course the alarm bell that you normally turn off on the inside of the House also was not on and there they were standing in the foyer and pitch black foyer With their guns drawn and I immediately took off and started running down. There was an embankment near our driveway. And I started running and running and running literally. My shoes fell off and unfortunately screaming for help. And unfortunately one of the men came back to find me and grabbed me by the back of my head and my hair and pulled me back into the house. I was hyperventilating and could hardly catch my breath from running and also from the terror of the moment and they actually gave me a brown paper bag debris into to catch my breath. They sat us down. I am now hysterically crying and and very concerned about. I thought this might be a home invasion when they said to us. We're not here to hurt you and But in the morning and they through the suitcase in front of my husband's feet and said in the morning or you're going to fill this bag up with With money we're you'RE GONNA drive us to the bank in the morning so as so. Unfortunately I don't know if that made me feel better or not but I the fact that they said they weren't going to hurt us. It wasn't a home invasion. You know death was not imminent. I next thing I said was whereas my daughter wears my housekeeper and I ran upstairs to make sure she was okay and she seemed to be fine. She didn't seem to be affected by the fact that they had been there. She was coloring on her on her desk. And one of the men were sitting outside. It was an upstairs bedroom outside the the stairs. You know the the area where the stairs were so. It's now mind you almost eleven thirty midnight by the time all of this has transpired and they say to my husband. You Close Your Eyes Take Closure. Is You know go to sleep. We'll come back in the morning and get you ready to go now. Of course I did not sleep that entire night. I decided I was going to be like Colombo and I started to pay attention to again what they were wearing what their shoes look like if they were tennis shoes or shoes if they were right handed left handed and you know what their face looked like giving those pitch black in the house there was still shadows and kind of still see if they had a beard if they had a mustache etc so my whole night was focused on trying to make sure that I would be able to tell the police and the FBI the next day Who they were and so that they could be captured. So the So now it's five o'clock in the morning and they tell us to get up and get dressed and that my husband was going to have to shave and and put on a suit to go to the bank and Little while later they told me to get dressed and get my daughter dressed. Take US downstairs now. The car was the trunk of the car was facing the street and they asked me to now get in the car for a four door sedan. Turn the car around and now face the trunk reverse the trunks of the car so that the trump would now be facing the front door. Little did I know that I didn't expect to be anywhere close to this car. Let alone be put into the trunk of the car. I went when they said okay. You're coming with us. I said why are we going with you? I don't understand. I thought Alan was going with you. To get the money from from the bank. No you're coming with us because you are insurance you are insurance and as soon as we get the ransom will let them know where you are so my seven year old is now standing next to me and I'm doing everything in my power not to cry not to be hysterical not to be shaking not to be out of any control just so that she would not be traumatized in anyway and next thing you know I hear in somewhere in my in my in my head tell her you're playing hiding those seek which is what I say to her because they've now told us to get in the trunk of the car. My husband finds this out and is very upset and says can we at least give them a pillow so that they can lay their head in the back in the trunk of the car which they go ahead and allow that to happen but now again is pitch blackout. Nobody can see what's going on. They certainly haven't put any lights on and they they took us and start driving. My husband is still home because he's still not ready to go in the bank. Would nope until nine o'clock in the morning. So they driving. They drive in. They drive in the drive. In Up to that point we could get the oxygen a little bit of oxygen that or air coming in from the bottom of the trunk and we get to see a little light when they would put the brakes on because the little red lights would light up in the back but other than that we really were lying down in fetal position in this dark trunk was way back before there were mobile phone so you could easily get up for trunk wasn't at you quite clearly held. Oh yeah this was a Mercedes trunk. There was no push buttons that you could pop the trunk open And in fact There were cell phones but they were not portable. They were the ones that you could in the car 'cause this is one thousand nine hundred eighty eight and When they actually asked me to turn the car around I almost nine one one but I knew that they would literally shoot us and kill us because they did tell us if any if we did anything. We didn't that they told us not to do that. they would kill us So now we're in Miami and all we could hear is the clippers klopp of the the road and and we just driving and driving and driving and driving up to a point where I heard a van pull us pull over. The van door opened and a woman's voice sounded and or giving the drivers some sort of instructions and then we kept driving. I have no idea how much time has eloped. Because they had literally taken my watch and my wedding ring and any jewelry that I was wearing up to that point and we were in fact leaving town for Christmas week trip with our our combined family we were making it a ski trip in Colorado And you know we had literally had gotten married in September. It's now December so it's ninety days that we'd been together. My husband moved into our into my home which I lived in for six years so now they stopped the car and during this time by the way I was singing songs telling my daughter's stories she was hungry. She wanted to go to the bathroom. She was very very fidgety. And just wanted to get the heck out of there and was tired of playing hide and go seek. That clearly was a little longer than she expected and so when they finally stopped. I thought to myself we're going to die in the trunk of the cards. It's like our metal coffin. Fixated mind you. We are in Florida. If you leave a child in the car for ten minutes they are literally dead from the heat. That comes through the car. Now we're in a trunk which is even worse and I'm really concerned about that and so I decided to tell my daughter that I was really tired that I hadn't slept the night before which I hadn't and I'm literally working off of adrenaline. Because that's all I could think about doing To keep her alive and keep her not be traumatized and I figured let's tell her. Tell her that let's take a nap. Let's close our eyes and a little. While later. She listened to me a little later. I could hear that. She was now napping and resting and I began to pray the twenty third psalm. The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want. He makes me lie in green pastures. He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul etc and by the time which is a prayer. I've had heard it many many funerals so I figured I would pray for us at this moment of death and ask God to watch over US and protect us. Now I was. I was not a religious person but on the same token I was not a metaphysical person but I believe in God and but asked for help but that very moment and I said the end of this prayer right after I said I'm in I said God please take me. My daughter does not deserve to die this way and in that very moment. Simon. That's when my physical body was in the trunk of the car but my spirit my soul was flying through the top of my head out at a million miles a minute through this tunnel of light where I could see I could in. My eyes are closed. Mind you but I could see colors. I could hear sounds and just travelling at a million miles a minute and all of a sudden I. It's almost like there's a stop at the end of this almost at the end of this tunnel and I am now surrounded by these beautiful beings of light. Did you feel they were angels or spirit guides of you know? I guess they could be all of those things. I didn't know what they were. They were just beautiful Luminous beings of light that we're now surrounding me and in fact I felt is very powerful large being of light to my right and he says he told me telepathically that. He was Archangel Michael and that he had been with me for many lifetimes. Watching over me and protecting me. And he's got that say reputations the right word but that that's how he's depicted isn't as a protector right and so there he was and so a little while later I was shown a life review. This white screen appeared and I was thirty eight years old at the time and all of a sudden my entire life was now literally shown to me from the minute. I was born to this very moment in time. All the people all the things everything that had gone on in my life people I heard people. I loved people. I was kind to And it was a really eye opening Experience now I use the word eye-opening but in fact my eyes were closed and yet I could see there. It was like there was a veil that had been lifted and and I could see all around me and these beings of light just felt like this tremendous love and energy And it was very peaceful and I had no fear whatsoever. I felt very common and secure and And really didn't really understand what was going on. Obviously to to wear all of a sudden in my head after this life review the next thought I had because it was only a thought was mit. I wonder if I'm dead. Is this heaven and immediately. They responded to me also telepathically and said you are not dead and you have a very big mission yet to take care of back in On Earth and then I asked. Where's my daughter? And they told me to look down and I looked down. Of course again my eyes are closed and I could see us lying and fetal positions in the trunk of the car and my eyes are closed and Hirsch and she's napping and And it was really phenomenal in that. I had no concept of any of this at any time but I was feeling this. Just this love in this piece and this you know wonderful experience that never did. I know about or read about in there I am in the middle of it and a little while has passed now and whatever they were telepathically communicating with me. was complete and as quickly as I had now gone past A million miles a minute going into this tunnel. I'm now in reverse going the opposite direction back into my physical body was there a point during the MD. Where you've so your husband in the bank. Yes thank you for reminding me of that Yes so. I had asked them if I could see what my husband was doing. And if he was okay and they actually showed me again. A white screen of him scurrying around and terrified and anxious. You know trying to get the bank president to open the the The I guess the the safe and pull out all this money and of course nobody could tell anybody. Nobody could call anybody. And they just didn't know what was going on and he was terrified and I was able to see this but I was not able to communicate with him but I knew that he had our best interest trying to figure out how to get the money to this man. That was waiting outside of the bank with my car and having them when when they were when they received the money and the and the bag full of money to be able to go and take off far enough away which is what they told. My husband will call you soon as we are far enough away and that we count the money and make sure that everything is there and we'll tell you where your family is. And that's what what I got when I saw this moment of It was a moment in time it was like a TV movie. But I could not communicate with him. Which is what I was hoping to do. But it was It was very powerful to watch him do what he needed to do. When you went back to your body did you feel that you had a near death experience because you were physically in a position that you were going to die all that it was something else that actually you. You weren't close to death but some kind of spiritual influence took you from your body for this and no doubt about that. I I definitely I was out of body. There was no doubt about it. I knew we were going to die of expectation or heat stroke. Because that's really what was going on. We were now five hours in the trunk of his car which I had again no clue about. How much time had elapsed? And if that wasn't enough for me to receive the messages have received the past life review to have seen my husband doing what he was doing. I now come back into my physical body. My spirit my soul back into my physical body with a thump where it was all of a sudden my daughter wakes up and she starts to cry and she says Mommy Look Up. Where did that opening come from? The size of a baseball now is an opening over my head and I could see. Both of us could see the sky. We could see clouds passing by. We could see telephone wire which was connected to a poll and we could hear cars coming. And going and the sprinkling little light of dusk coming through this opening the size of a baseball where there was none before. This is a Mercedes truck and I can assure you. There was no opening their prior to me leaving my physical body and going into this near death experience. So where do you think it came from so I? I truly believe that this now moment of allowing us to breathe because now this oxygen is pouring in and we can catch our breath and Really connect with this. It was really divine intervention. I believe it was God allowing us to survive mentioned God there. Did you feel at any point that this was a Christian experience? So you more just kind of a a spiritual outlook now. I think it was more of a spiritual outlook for me and the irony is that when they finally got to our car we were about three blocks away parked three blocks away from where the bank building was where my husband was and Three or four different cars showed up the FBI and and Lawyers and bankers and all sorts of people and of course. They expected us to be dead in the trunk of the car. Because of the timeframe that had elapsed and when they unlocked the car we jumped out like a jack in the box two. Then I turn around to show my husband opening in the trunk of the car that help us survive and of course fingering the trunk of the car. It was gon. Who's no hove a? There was no holder totally closed inside. Anna this is amazing stuff isn't it? It was a miracle that allowed us to stay alive. It was beyond anything I could have ever expected planned for or you know assumed and you. I was told that because of me asking to let my daughter live in the. Take me that you know there was clearly a divine plan. It was not our time to die and that they had to find a way to allow us to survive. If I could go back to the life review what I wanted to ask. What did your life review teach you what would you say? We could all learn from her. And that's a wonderful question and the life review for me was about understanding that we are all one and you know like if I kicked a dog or if I was not kind or if I had betrayed somebody or if I Was unforgiving about something or other and and I could see all of this very clearly and of course from childhood on you. You know you realize you don't know any of these things growing up even though you try to be a good person but you know what's shown to you is by the way without judgment. Nothing that you have done or will do or or Happened to see in a life review. Which apparently we all receive when we cross over to the other side and the veil is lifted. There is no judgment. Your soul is able to see what it is that you need to see for your own personal Soul growth and for me. It was about learning how to forgive. Not hold onto grudges and to be continued to share that message about the fact that in the end there is nothing to forgive because everyone in our lives have shown up to show. Us An Academy award performance. So that we can then grow spiritually and on the difference so level for instance these villains that came to do this to me and my family I forgive them I bless them because had it not been for this experience that I asked to be shown in this lifetime which I believe that to be true now but I wouldn't have known that then Changed my life forever chain. I would've never experienced a near death experience. I would have never experienced a divine intervention and a miracle to allow us to survive. So there are many things that you look at when things happen and you have challenges and struggles and different situations. But you don't understand that there is a a purpose and a lesson in something that you've asked for you say in the book. That's when you suffered some hardship in your first marriage that you need to forgive yourself as it was you that signed up to the marriage in you of life plan before you were born. That's correct that's correct and that's and that's exactly what I learned in my life review is that because there is really truly nothing to forgive and you realize that every one of these things are a life plan right. It's part of Your Life Plan. There is nothing to forgive so the kidnapping was Paul of the planet. Swallow it are. The kidnapping was part of the plan. The kidnapping and the after effects that I went through because unfortunately being human I came back and suffered for about two years with post traumatic stress. Fear anxiety physical mental and emotional pain Because during that time when the minute I walked into the House to the minute that I got out of that trunk I was holding onto all of that energy and it got stuck both in my mind in my heart and my soul every cell in my body was holding onto that fear and that pain even though I had experienced such incredible love and direction and purpose it was still stuck in my physical body so for about two years I had to suffer with depression and what some people call the dark night of the soul. Simon here I'm happy to say. The audible is a sponsor of this podcast. Many of the guests have been on the past lives pocus have books available on audible including Dr Eboni Zonda Dr Penny Sartori and Wendy Rose Williams. You can get a free audiobook download and a thirty day free trial if you go to. Www DOT audible trial dot com forward. Slash bars lives podcast. That's audible trial. Dot Com forward slash past lives podcast? And then you went on to have a dream about somebody cooled Suzanne. Yes so I you know. I literally had lost my career of sixteen years being chief operating officer of a public company. I had literally lost my home of six years. I had lost my will to live. I lost my safety insecurity. I had wackenhut guards living outside my home for two years because I'm now the one in prison mentally and emotionally and had basically not wasn't a mother or a wife for those two years. My husband took care of the family. My husband took care of everything I was unable to function and I finally got on my knees and prayed and I said God I know that you did not save me so that I would suffer this way. There must be something that you can do to help me. I'm asking for your support because I've lost the will to live. I don't WanNa live like this any longer and I was not sleeping hardly sleeping every time. I close my eyes. I had this this loop of these people in my in. My Mind's eye out could not I would not sleeping. I was dreaming was terrible. So after this moment of of asking For for help and the and the the word. Here's asking for help. That night I went to sleep and actually slept deeply and had this dream about this woman. Who would be someone who could help me heal? Her name was Susanne and the dream was go to this beauty salon where she would be getting an a manicure. Sit next to her. Ask Her for her information and she will be the person that's going to help you heal. Now Mind You my husband a banker very conservative. Very straight laced. You know I don't know how he handled all of this and was able to to continue to support and love me without you know it was just unconditional. And he did and I then woke up the next morning I felt better. I I said to him. I really need you to take me on Saturday to go do this. This was the dream. It was so vivid. I want you to honor the fact that I'm not going crazy and that This is real and so it's kind as he is and continues to be. He drove me there We we circle the area a little bit because I had no idea where we were going somewhere in south Miami and was a building on the second floor with a second floor and I looked up and there was a beauty salon and I knew that was the one and still. I came in got a manicure set next to this woman and guess what her name was. Susanne so took her card and she told me I asked her what she did for living and she said I'm a pastoral counselor in hypnotherapist and I do have a card. I'd love to speak to you and I spent three hours on the phone that afternoon with her and I knew she would be the person that was going to change my life and she did and did you tell her about the dream straight away. No Oh no no. No that took a little bit of time. No I just introduced myself and said. Oh your name's Suzanne. My name is Suzie and You know I was trying to act normal and calm. And and trawl ally just another day at the beauty salon. And then she used all sorts of techniques to bring you out of the darkness she did and I have to tell you. Hypnotherapy was an incredible healing process for me. I know you do hypnosis and I have found that through hypnosis where it was very hard for me to even allow that to occur. I'm a very controlling person And I was never heard of really being regressed or even hypnosis for whatever was happening to me what had happened to me and But she was just someone that was very comfortable to be with and sensitive and understanding and just made it easy for me to just relax and let go. And she recorded all of our sessions. Which allowed me to listen to the information and the messages that also were given to me while on the other side so it was it was A very important part of my healing. Not just the counseling but the hypnosis and you say when you're working with Suzanne. You had an energy shift. So what is the what is it? Felt like well you know for me. I felt that the cloud had been lifted the information that I kept listening to during my hypnosis process. Because she did. I was going to her two three times a week and felt Very uplifted and elevated from the the peace and serenity that I was getting from the practices that she was walking me through the different exercises the journaling and more than anything one of the messages that I was given was to comeback to empower women and teach meditation now up to that moment in time. I had never meditated in my life and in fact the business that I was involved in was one hundred percent male dominated so imagine me coming back. Now and empowering women. I didn't know what that meant. And how that was going to show up in my life and how. I was going to do that as well as meditation. So Suzanne actually brought all that out a in. That was inside of me from there you went on and Utah became. Go back into your life and you start developing things with a magazine. Didn't you so after that took a couple of years and then I actually went back to school because I felt like I needed some credentials to be able to empower others in. I also became a hit a hypnotherapist a pastoral counselor life coach a teacher of Meditation. Iraqi master And I felt that without these credentials. It was hard for me. Even though I had a lot of life experiences in gone through this near death experience that it was important for me to do that so I went back to school got my credentials and then opened up a An office where I was counseling women and also having lesson hypnosis classes etc then What came to me was? After I was teaching a group of women and created what was called a women's wisdom circle I was doing a lot of networking at that time. I had obviously A whole new experience in life and vision for myself and Women would just come every Thursday night and I had I. I started with ten chairs and then it was two twenty chairs and then thirty chairs where I just was doing that for five years and basically dealing with personal growth self development metaphysical topics. Meditation of course was key. We meditated all the time and And my now. This is nineteen ninety six ninety seven. Almost ten years have passed since my near Death. Experience and my life had changed radically nothing that. I would have expected to be doing up to that point in time. Had it not been for my near death experience so after five years. I put the question out to the group that I needed to be doing something on a larger scale. I didn't know what that was and I'm putting the question out to them so that because the message was that they would tell me and And the message was that I needed to to put my messages out in a magazine form so I started the nonprofit. Call the Work Life Balance Institute for Women and we started to publish a magazine called Balanced magazine. We started doing what we created a very special networking process called power networking for women and we also had an annual conference with about fifteen hundred women At one of our big event locations where we had amazing metaphysical spiritual personal growth personal growth development speakers that were all the keynotes and we were very successful and I have to tell you for those ten years I was. It was a lot of work. It was a lot of stress. But we made so many We met so many amazing women and based on the emails in the letters in the cars that we received of transformations and life changes. Were all that I needed because I knew that if I change one life and one life got better because of me and what? I was doing that I had done. God's work do you still have any kind of contact with the institute with the Archangel? Yes I do I. I'm I actually one of the things that happened on my return was that I became very electro magnetic frequency emf Sensitive and for many years is I was channeling and I couldn't even have a portable cell phone Or walk past lights that were outside a building because I would literally they would shut shut down on their own It took a while for me to understand that. Suzanne helped me a lot with that and and I- channeled entities for about five years where people would call me and I would speak to to their loved ones on the other side. That's very powerful isn't it? You must have helped love people that way. It was very powerful and it was unexpected. I didn't understand you know the psychic process or being a medium and Again it took time to understand that and to learn how to control it And then I actually Asked my guides to just you know. Bring it down so that this was not. I knew this was not going to be my life's work because being a medium channel was or a psychic was not really what I wanted to do but it was a gifted I appreciate it and and to keep it with me but only on my terms and they honored that which was really very Wonderful because I have that knowing now but I don't need to be there. Channelling Spirit guides for others. Did they catch the kidnappers? So the answer to that is yes. They apparently thought that this was such an easy cookie cutter crime that they did this cross country. They were caught in California unfortunately not everyone survived their cookie cutter but people in the trunk concept. Some people died so they were now wanted for kidnapping for And for and for murder and for bank robbery so yes they were caught in California. You had some kind of experience when you were in court and there was a woman. There you thought was the lady that was talking to the kidnappers. That's correct the the so it turns out that the mastermind was in Albano. Sounds like a movie but the fact of the matter is that based on his skin color. I knew he was in Albino. So when I was asked to go to the police department and the FBI and do Some artwork with them I gave them this information. And of course that's exactly who was on stand on the in court so when I was on the stand there was a woman sitting next to him and I knew that that might have been to woman that he had talked to on the telephone next to my bed as well as the woman that was in the in the van that had talked to the driver in our car so two three years after the he was it was obviously indicted in and put in jail but she was not part of the of the process because nobody apparently had used her name or said that you know she was involved even though. I did but nobody had really followed up on that Couple of years after he was put put in jail. I had I was sitting in a conference room sitting not far from my husband board meeting when all of a sudden I got this incredible pain in my chest. Almost like somebody hit either shot. Mir's took a knife inside of me and I went white to wear color went out of my face. I started to shake I was ours. Profusely sweating out of nowhere and I got up and stood up and I said just came out of my mouth. They're back they're back as I said they're back and my husband said to me. Oh what are you talking about? I said the woman is coming back with two guys to come get us to finish the job because we you know. We obviously pointed a finger to her husband or the mastermind however he is in. She's back and he looked at me embarrassed because we're surrounded by group of board members minds you at the bank and I said I'm leaving. I'm picking up the dog. The cat my housekeeper and our daughter and I will see at the hotel. She WanNA leave. Now be my guest but I am not living. I'm not staying at home. Well the next morning he gets dressed. I get dressed. My daughter goes off to school and I my housekeeper stays at the hotel with with our pets and I go to his office that morning and on his on his desk. There is a newspaper from the Palm Beach Post with a big red circle around where they had picked up this woman at the Palm Beach Airport with two men with automatic weapons from an from an airplane a private either private airplane hangar payroll. They had landed there so this message was proved correct. I received very powerful messages and I either. It's automatically in my head and I know it where it's in a dream or it's in some sensation and that's what I've been very fortunate to receive over the thirty years until these communications these dreams so they have a S- Quality that's different to a normal dream. They're very vivid for instance the dream that I had about Steven Halpern who is. The person is a grammy nominated Ambient new age musician. was apparently speaking in South. Florida and about his music being healing music and Up to that point I had been channeling and It was probably. I'm going to say Nineteen Ninety. Five and the stream just came to me. My husband used to get every newspaper. Maybe ten different newspapers local and international and national newspapers and the dream was for me to open up the local newspaper. On the right hand corner of the lifestyle section. There was going to be a big ad with a picture of Steven Halpern at the Broward Convention Center in that. I should go see him. And that he and I were going to create a channel meditation to Channel Meditations. Actually and now I didn't know who Steven Halpern was never heard of him and didn't understand the dream but I followed it to a T. So when I woke up in the morning I immediately went to the newspaper that was sitting My husband's On the porch and we brought it in and I opened up in there. It was the ad that said Steven Halpern and and his healing music and the time that he was going to be and etc so I shared that information with my husband and he you know shrugged his shoulders. He never really took a lot of this seriously. He he he understood it. He respected it. But I'm not sure he really got the the powerful. The information was for me and So PS Long Story Short. I ended up connecting with Steven Halpern that day and Was told to shake his hand look into his blue eyes and tell him that I need to do omitted a channel meditation tape with him and he said when can we start that literally that simple and can people get hold of that now. Yes I have an MP3 that if people email me at at Beehive Publishing S. l. At G MAIL DOT com they. I'm more than happy to forward it to them. And that teaches meditative techniques. Well no IT'S. It's too guided. Visualizations one is called meditations for healing stressed and the other one is meditations for a peaceful heart. And they're both guided visualizations with the music of Steven Halpern. And would you say there's any kind of hypnosis involved in this? That kind of you must hypnotize yourself. I love being hipped toys. Oh no absolutely. It's a channel guided visualization with. No no question that there's hypnosis involved that that was so impossible so incredibly You know wonderful for me and it has been for so many x one of the things that happens when I tried meditation is. I can't quiet down my mind so having that kind of guidance I think would really help me yes? Guidance is very important. I have found that to be the case with a lot of folks that have that monkey mind going on and I always say it's not really about listen. You have seventy thousand thoughts a day. It's impossible for those to shut down. And just keep focused on your breath. And in those little gaps between the breath is really where meditation occurs when you receive and meditation is just a muscle that you're building so that you can be more of an open channel if you will to receive the messages that are all around us because we're all channels some are more open than others in the end. That's really what it's about and meditation is. What's trying to connect with with our spirit guides with beings of light with angels and receive the messages that they're trying to to bring to us the moment. You have the book getting forgiveness but what sort of other things are you working on at the moment? I'm very involved with Well let me just say that. I know you remember my seven year old. That was with me in the trunk of the car and one of the one of the things that happened unfortunately is that she passed away and September of twenty eighteen from non Hodgkin's lymphoma and she passed away ninety days before she was to be married in January of Twenty nineteen and It's been a very difficult process for me from grieving. Her death but because of I spiritual knowledge having been on the other side. I'm at peace. Knowing that she is in a better place in that in fact because of her own soul and spirit. It was her time to go and I was. I was supposed to be with her at the moment that she passed and allow her to also listen to the twenty third psalm. It's been a very difficult two years. I can imagine she was thirty six years old. And and you know Simon I grieve. Not because she's GonNa Grieve because she didn't get to finish the life that I thought she was going to have with her fiance with her with her life. She was a free spirit. Who had so much living yet to do you with her when she passed. That must have been comfort. Well it was. It was incredibly difficult and but it was a comfort knowing that. I was there with her just like I was there with my grandmother when she passed. Who was totally terrified of dying? Was there any kind of channeling happening at the time you know? Here's what happens when you are so connected to emotionally connected to the people you love. Sometimes it's they don't give you that information because it's just not something that you need to be knowing you need to kind of go with the flow and and and go through the emotions in the process. While I could do it for someone else's family it was not for me to do for myself. Do you have a website that people can find Ya yes? My website is getting to forgiveness. Dot Com and My book is on Amazon and Barnes and noble and actually all over the world and any independent Bookstore and It became a number one release on Amazon ten days after it came out in November In the near death genre near death experience genre so I was very proud of that because lots of folks really don't understand near death and in fact my own family would say to me. Yes you're right sweetheart. You're almost died so the word. Yeah so the word near death is really a little confusing to some people and an Indie ease is a very specific process. Yes very powerful one on it. So many people that changed so dramatically going through the experience yes and I never in a million years Expected my life to end up the way it has but I wouldn't change it for anything so I'm blessed and I'm blessed that this all happened to me and that I had the opportunity to now look at my life with new fresh eyes and see the possibilities of what I could do now to change the change women and make it a better place and you have plans for another book in his funny. You would ask that. I've I've gotten that question from a lot of folks. The answer is I'm so right now into this book and Going out to my book has been chosen From the Library Foundation of Broward County for their literary feast one of my one of twenty books that they do on an annual basis. I'm very honored to have been chosen and I'm doing a lot of podcasts. I'm doing a lot of book clubs. just involve a lot of different Promotions if you will Getting out there getting awards so I'm not really ready to say that I'm going to do another book. What would you recommend new? You have the inspiration. I would recommend doing it. I've written science fiction. I've got a novel on Amazon. And what have you but Obviously that's a completely different thing. But it's it's when you're inspired as almost kind of it's hard to describe. They almost say inspiration is given to you from some kind of spirit and so I feel that if if you feel inspired to do it. That's probably where you're getting it from and you know the word inspire and spirit is really a One in the same right. There's a lot of stories about inspiration and you know like Paul McCartney said he had a dream his mother Mary about the song let it be and when he got up in the morning he wrote that song and it was inspired by the dream. There you go. I think we all are given dreams. We don't really understand what they mean. And so we just go on with our life as opposed to acknowledging it or writing it down or doing something about them and so I always share with my wisdom circle to write down their dreams and sometimes you need to write them before you even do anything or go to the bathroom or do anything just literally write it down because it just goes poof and disappears all the details that you need to write down so writing down your dreams. It's very powerful. Meditation on a daily basis is very powerful. You got to build that muscle to really connect and receive the powerful messages. That are guides are waiting to to share with us. Why people fight that. I don't know but you know it's just a I say start a ritual first thing in the morning meditate for ten or fifteen minutes. It doesn't have to be a very long process. Start with that and give yourself a gift. You're gonNA take a shower. You'RE GONNA brush your teeth. You're going to have breakfast but before you do all that. Give Yourself fifteen minutes wakeup fifteen minutes earlier right and and make that happen because it'll change who you are. It'll change your day and it will direct you to things that you never expected. Coincidences will show up in your life. Messages will be given things will happen. That that Are Miraculous that you have no idea where they came from. But in fact it all comes from meditating. Well thank you commute. Time and coming onto the PODCAST. It's been fascinating as been my honor. Simon thank you so much for taking this time with me as well and that was an interview with Suzy Eleven. If you'd like to support the podcast you can do so through patron. If you sign ups the two dollars here you will get a bonus episode every month and in the five dollars here you get access to weekly bonus episodes the occasion extended episodes and the back catalogue. Which is now a forty episodes visit homepage on my website pass lives hypnosis dot co UK and Click on the become patron button go to Patriot dot com forward slash past lies podcast to access the episodes and still the patron APP. Otherwise you can download the more stream them from the Patriots site. Then forget you can get a free audiobook. Download a thirty day free trial audible. Trial Dot com forward slash. Pass podcast and if you enjoy the poke ass be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts. Spotify will via your favorite podcast APP to make sure that you don't miss out on episodes and thanks for listening
CRE News Hour 10/18/2019: Special Edition, Urban Land Institute Panel, From Liability to Asset: Rethinking Commercial Property
"From the business desk at St Broadcast News this is the sea arena news hour. I'm Steve Lubeck. It's Friday October Eighteenth Twenty nineteen and in this edition of the DOT com and we'll send you the rate card for advertising and commercials be back with that panel discussion after these messages from our sponsors how to find clients and much more visit the business of podcasting dot com pretty sponsored by the Philadelphia Chapter of the Urban Land Institute and recorded on October eleventh in Voorhees Camden County New Jersey mm-hmm was from liability to asset rethinking commercial property and the panelists dealt with some of the Commercial Real Estate Challenges Facing Turn Your podcasting passion into prophets the book the business of podcasting describes the used to be the echelon mall in is now called the Voorhees town center a struggling retail property and one of the things that today you can't wait for the media to cover your company you have to be the media take advantage of the power of audio and video it's the best way to showcase produce podcasts and video programs remotely or in our fully equipped studio in Cherry Hill visit being the media dot Com for more information your expertise to prospective customers let the Luebeck in media companies handle the technical side we're award winning audio and video producers we can help red button right in the middle of the podcast episode page and if you're interested in becoming a sponsor of the Sierra Newshour right to me at Steve at St Broadcast News Click on the purple take the survey button right below the podcast player and share some information that will help us get to our audience better we'd also appreciate your business side of podcasting including how to become a professional podcast her you'll learn about positioning your clients expertise podcasting to plus the best business models and now we'll get to our special feature for this week's program this is the Urban Land Institute of Philadelphia thanks for joining us on the CR renews our we just like to make note of a new option on the show page for this episode you can right over the border line and Mike McDonough the mayor of Voorhees Township Voorhees as where this program was held in the for his town hall complex in what you program recorded on October eleventh in Voorhees New Jersey not far from where we produce the Serey Newshour the program ordering financial support for the news hour by visiting our Patrie on link and becoming a show supporter you can also leave a tip in the tip jar by clicking the blue value add retail redevelopment moderating the program is Susan Bass Levin she is the president and CEO of the Cooper Foundation which is the philanthropic arm of the Cooper health system which is headquartered in Camden New Jersey and Susan Bass Levin is the former mayor of as a developer engineer real estate leader you want to take those opportunities and make sure that L. C. Management Corp. which has just signed an agreement to take over ownership of the Voorhees town center Echelon Mall Complex with plans to do Cherry Hill New Jersey which is a town adjacent to voorhees where this program was recorded so now let's go to the lectern and here the introduction of the speakers because although sometimes maybe doesn't seem that way we really do all share the same goals and I've been on both sides of this equation but you can work with the municipality to make something happen when I first started as mayor some of the towns in South Jersey the panelists for this program r Kelly Andress the founder and president of sage life which develops continuing care retirement community Paul Medani the mayor of Deptford township where the Deptford Mall is being challenged by other retail developments like outlet stores in other jurisdiction by Susan Best Lavigne what a perfect topic actually to bring together municipal leaders and business and real estate leaders which I wanted to tell you the year but when I first started as mayor people wanted more residential development less commercial development then a few years later they wanted more view book at a piece of property in a community it can be a liability or it can be an asset as a municipal leader you want it to be an asset missile development less residential development they didn't want kids in the school they forgot that they had kids I guess that changed every few years is to sort of we had bathrooms on one floor for example and we have worked together to totally do an Interior Gut Rehab a new portion of the building and have a brand new medical office building none of these projects are easing. You know that it's time you touch a wall you find brand new surprise but you have turned liability into an asset in Voorhees mcdonagh we'll talk about is the challenges in getting this redeveloped Chris Rasa is the last of the panelists easy executive vice president and Chief Operating Officer of D so I'm going to ask each of the panelists and sort of lightning round to give few minutes of introduction about themselves we will start with Kelly out trials the school while preserving the historic exterior of the school any of you who've been involved in Rehab projects no that that is not easy to turn the building into into assets for medical office buildings and right now anti-bush are working on a project on seventy the old easier to build new I have learned that and so today we're going to talk about how we together make these things work we have four what was in vogue in a particular community what the cost would be in development as people started to realize that nothing ed I started building assisted living and before we even had memory care communities in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine I built the first doc ID Martin travelers insurance you know we still call buildings by names that they had thirty forty years ago to totally rehab that building add on Miss World came free but I've been involved with some of you in this room on this process of turning a liability into an warriors one of the things that's interesting about our industry is that capital is flocking to our industry cap rates dropping and Mike McDonough the mayor of Voorhees Township and Chris Rasa the executive vice president and Chief Operating Officer of Dlc Management Corporation asset as Angeles said we've worked together on several very old schools and Camden schools that go back to the early nineteen hundreds schools that and then identify one opportunity and one obstacle that they have faced which will sort of get us into our conversation. Well then have I don't know if that's GONNA fly on the video and the second thing is I'm very comfortable here because I was born in one thousand nine sixty six in southern California ten communities out we have eight hundred associates expected to double in the next four years given what we have underdevelopment right now hundred five years of age we're not homogeneous little old ladies we are we represent thirty percent take frankly the support of the mayor and the Voice Administration we've worked on this complex the visit the office complex around other we might be near the top of this cycle the demographics are chasing us so that's why I'm here who is and I'm very comfortable in malls and I was not a valley girl but I sure as hell woman to be so that's spending the world needs to get used to gray hair and middle age and older people Midland and what's in zoning we have half million have a billion dollars in assets and grow into a billion dollars in assets under management in the I don't approve debt I go to church I pay taxes and I vote I have conservative family values but not necessarily conservative then we decided to start my husband and I do it for ourselves so I developed senior housing from Florida to Maine currently sage life has we some panel discussion from here with some questions and then open it up to you so we thinking about how you WanNa stump are catalysts politically I am pro technology but I'm not technology native so don't talk down to me I probably have as many really safe senior living before seniors decided that he wanted to be seniors and there's just a couple of things that I've already noticed coming from Wallingford swap great panelists Kelly Andress the founder and president of Sage Life Mayor Palm Dany the mayor of Deptford Township Mayor Hi my resident I walk shop I travel I buy gifts I sent handwritten cards and I send money in the mail global spending is controlled by people sixteen over right now we are predominantly women and women control two-thirds of all consumers phones in my pocket as you do I might not be able to remember the passcode I'm resilient you're in outside of Philadelphia I live in Delco and so this morning I've already been called there instead I was from Southern Jersey and I don't suffer fools I've had enough B s shovel to me over the years I don't accept it anymore I see it coming towards me assisted living is I did that for four five years than I built the first nine bright view communities for them had five hundred vomit and I have between with a within a reasonable standard deviation between five hundred thousand dollars and two point five million dollars assets so what is the opportunity for me I live in my hometown I wanna stay my resonate wants to stay in tenant who is my resident my resident The most important thing about us is our resonant is who are resident resident is seventy two I have on average my resident my resident pays on average between three thousand dollars a month and twelve thousand dollars a month in rent the twentieth of I twenty three sunrises which you may know we created the the mansion that came to personify I am seniors are expected to double from seven point nine four million in twenty fourteen to fourteen million in two thousand twenty nine so who in my communities I wrote off twenty two thousand dollars in bad debt last year in uncollectable runs and some people think I'm sexy consumer with those demographics my residents asked me why I live here and she said because I live in cruise ship that never leaves my grandkids and that's why Auburn Echo Lake it's a lovely two hundred and fifty apartment independent assisted living in memory care community and she said opportunities offer us is transportation often my residents come from wealthy neighborhoods which often don't have good reputations I you have to make all the decisions hi everybody my name is Kelly Andrews I am president and founder of Sage Life Transportation Network so I have difficulty getting my associates to and from my communities so one of the greatest opportunities in these sage life most community get two drinks included in your rent and that's per day but I wanted designated to me redevelopment at malls because I wanNA reinvigorate the corner of main and main so I think that there's a significant community Wanna stay near my kids just having a drink yes I drink soda my residents including at Sation Ulaby must I am a proud and and that combined with my California Mall Days that's why I have sought out alignment as was just outlined between malls and government and community what these redevelopment hi call the entanglements and the lease and the lease provisions that mall owners must suffer crew think a little bit about myself I grew up in Camden moved aboard he's in one thousand nine hundred five threats in these redevelopment opportunity is vision vision from the government vision from the developers vision from the Co tenants that you all live under as mall developers thank you redevelopment opportunities is my is is the transportation networks that the communities the offer another what I offer as an opportunity to where I wanna go so our biggest threat is the disentanglement of of these lease terms thanks Kelli now we have two mayors a lot about malls here on I'm going to I call on me Mike McDonough who's the one point one million square feet of retail second only to the Cherry Hill Mall it had a movie theatre had a tattered and that's because I'm not a I'm not a hypocrite so I was sitting in a bar drinking glass of wine with one of our resonance and just opened a Community Susan mentioned Opportunity Verses Obstacles and this is a perfect example of this was a former airfield that in the process successful after many different options including bringing in a Walmart which ready to some of the folks with whom I would like to do business and redevelop is that I have a low parking count I need about one parking space per nine hundred square feet eighteen seventy the rouse company built this very echelon mall early on thrive that five anchors it was if I want to be close to the mall and close to the retail because I walk places my residents don't want Dr for some reason residents went crazy over they decided through public meetings and input from the local government and from the residents to come up with the four he's good morning everybody I also the parking the dedicated parking issues become out size. If I'm an out parcel the issue there is I need to walk like that but I don I'm here to talk about the very site that you're at today the Echelon Mall Slash Forties town center our threat is the inability to put in the hard work to untangle all this which is the restaurant row if you haven't enjoyed the restaurant row pleasing Jewett because there's some cool bars and restaurants there At that same time they paid fifteen million dollars for it that same year we declared it an area redevelopment to help them move forward and help them make the Anna left behind in two thousand three row sold the site to the Pennsylvania Real Estate Investment Trust many pre it had sear's Boskov macy's again five anchors unfortunately in the strategists yes and with Namdar and unfortunately they were less and less than a proactive partner with the township forcing us to take some steps to encourage and again while the restaurant and residential have thrive the mall proper continued to struggle in two thousand seventeen the third and the country to make such a move and hopes again no bringing foot traffic here to the town center in two thousand eleven to help increase foot traffic we actually moved our townhall here some thought we were crazy maybe we were we town center a mixed residential and commercial use a restaurant row so we approved four hundred and twenty five units we broke ground in two thousand seven the town center at least restaurant residential portion thrive unfortunately the repair the retail portion continued a township of developments there was never a downtown the goal and the goal still is to make this the downtown as as I like to call it the heart them to do some things we passed an ordinance that gave us the ability to take it by eminent domain if need be that got their attention increased sold the property to accompany call Mandar and the twelve years that pre owned this property they invested fifteen million dollars and the why has this particular site not been successful from a retail portion well there's a lot of theories the most opportunity to impose a separate tax because an arm wind they weren't making necessary repairs and improvements that got their attention beat of our community we've done our part and helping generate that by bringing many many events here our Halloween festival are full right now they took down about half the mall proper to make it more compact and they built what is the most successful portion of more options here clearly the heartbeat of art community is on life support so we're doing whatever we can thinks center in this location they're only built on major highways these days so at this point we are now under a redevelopment agreement with the struggle the goal was to make this town center the downtown never had voorhees has always been the mayor now for fifteen years if you take a look at that picture you'll get a good idea what happens when mayor for fifteen years I wish I still look public spending be live kind of atmosphere which is a great idea and they have many many different retailers that they they believe are looking they have partial approval for one hundred eighty townhomes they wanna make the food court threw a concessionaires license sort of encourage them to be successful and to continue to get more people here so this site again has been both an opportunity then obstacle but apps that's the reason my theory is I was discussing it with a couple of people earlier that this particular site is landlocked nobody would ever build a mall or shopping well are a beer garden of a farmer's market our our holiday beret movies in the park drive in movies you know I think one of the Mike made a lot of great points but one interesting one is is the nature of a pilot in the years that I was company that wants to come in and wants to give it a face lift and is very excited about the opportunity to to make the heartbeat of our community again we passed a declared a business A. B. I. D. of a Business Improvement district which gave us the the theory is online shopping whether that's true or not I don't know another theory is the fact that this mall is now almost fifty years old in the two thousands the business started to decline for a lot of different reasons three of the anchors left macy's and Bosco became too difficult to sell so even though that might be considered as a really great incentive was one that we just took off the table immediately so chuck COM news hour were presenting a special program we go along in deep with a complete recording of panel discussion from liability to asset rethinking commercial. Oh you're all familiar with the pilot the township has seriously considered a pilot fit to help encourage them to come in here we've extended the redevelopment zone to give them here we would never have considered a pilot the residents were opposed to it they didn't really understand it but they were opposed to it and it just board coming in what are we doing to work with them well one of the things that used to be a taboo but it's not taboo anymore it's called a pilot hard to help make this place success so thank you for coming and thank you for choosing where he doesn't cited this sorry Nambiar bought the property for nine million dollars in two thousand fifteen we with Nambiar and they were very excited about apart continue to work with US developer and if any of your interested in coming on over here please let me know or let my colleague Mary Lena Town now because he's he's been working very the mayor for the past eight years and came in with the mission and mandate to redevelop alive the old commercial properties immediately set about saying we're going to give bullets we're GONNA make it attractive so that people come here because it's not just about the facts what happened today you have to think about they're not paying taxes now no no no no so it takes some time to build consensus and I think that's probably where you all right now and you mentioned his picture up there I gave him an old picture so you can't see what mayorship did to me so and also we had a conference called is to build the mall area up with different uses we we have great dining over there thank God we had liquor licenses available which is with that we're going to bring up mayor Paul Dany who's the mayor of Deptford township and he also knows a lot about right online shopping is our animus were we're hoping Endeavor Township that folks aren't GonNa want to order food into their house or a movie off Net flicks takes several by We're going to have some good uses moving into the mall so we're also concentrating on branching out from retail like I said with entertainment but also medical years on council for Nineteen Years Planning Board for twenty years so I've seen a lot of change come to differ township I grew up there I was born in Dafur and God the mall and Mesa Rich and their partners era renovating that and we're very excited about it and can never happen quick enough we were just talking about how construction out of their homes and go shopping dining and come to me that's like a town centre come to a different mall and shop at one of the restaurant so one of our goals Deford but it's you know from your developer perspective you think Oh this is simple of course you would do it performa municipal perspective you have residents who are saying to you orange and places close to everybody doesn't realize that's a big loss of jobs for folks sears employee a lot of people by you know uses around there and we have things like a trampoline park new movie theater being planned at the mall is under Renovation Sears Dafur certainly changed from trauma community from when we were kids what it is now we're we're basically retail based economy and Amazon was mentioned what it's going to be mentioned again in eighteen square miles I just told you about our location we have one urgent care endeavor township I understand some of the marketing dynamics together this problem in the State of New Jersey and still problem indefinite but we have made your chains then we got a great variety dining there we'd concentrated on bringing entertainment born in and we're surrounded by eleven towns so there's a population area around us that that the man's medical services and basis to ensure the safety of our shoppers in our residents coming there and so far it's embarrassed successful we need we all that reputation being safe wait video games and just sitting there living the rest of their life our our goal is to I think the Governor Christie get the hell off the beach while we want people that get the hell out remember when the mall wasn't there needs to play them and the Mafia used to dump their well whatever so anyway she's we had we attracted more staffer township which is World Class Hospital Stanton Street from the mall in Spirit has planning board approval I know I met some and I remember when I was a kid. Effort was patrolled by state police believe it or not and that will now aging myself despite that picture but it's just a solid location ten minutes from Philly at shatter and so that's why mall does so well anyway myself I've been the mayor for thirteen audio so yes so now we earn seventy cops we got a police substation in the mall we have license plate readers we have we work with mall security we meet with them in a monthly concentrate on safety at the mall we all have to know that it seeks to come shop there we have seventy officers on our police force now when back in the day that's just to give us all speakers idea what we rent for and I told might be the mayor of over here definitely consider ourselves geniuses cast future and see what's going to happen so I do want to speak on this before I sit down there's there's issues that we all work like it's going to be so good morning everybody I I wanted to thank you for inviting me to be too great opportunity so and secure so we're also on the and I mentioned I was on the Planning Board for twenty years what we're trying to do in Dafur is plan for the future planning on the motion patient person in the world I want everything you built yesterday but I also realized that some folks matching that that there's different dynamics because of how well are moles down but in reality it's the location of the Mall We're not geniuses it's we're very fortunate to have the highway system were aiming to deal with with not only folks were building the places but the developers and the engineers and the architects and everyone who comes in ask questions what are you guys I have no closing etc etc but we're trying to plan for the future and try to predict what's going to happen in five ten fifteen even twenty years and endeavour attach what we try to do is we try to Kreider cell phone being business friendly Mike spoke about that all the towns if you're smart have what can you do for us federal what we can do for you is make that process easier what happens in the state of New Jersey they do everything they can seemingly make it hard you know all the agencies DP all of them they all got good folks working there but the entitlements you gotta go through just to get you they want you to come to defer township and work through the process and if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out but it's not an adversarial relationship we build relationships and I go to the doctors and would bath something's just don't make sense to me so anyway some of the things about the mall to we folks were Cooper here you're always welcome to come dafter township and open up an urgent care whatever some things fascinate me too as a matter Deford passed thirty two thousand people so we have to business friendly mayors who've identified in we have to we have to get things moving and we all have to work and especially local officials everything moves up county freeholder state assemblyman state things built in and land swaps in God's just the just the The awful stuff that you have to live through our mall right now too work sometimes the the thing is you know breath marks mall result and some of them were built in the correct places and they're in logic mass instead of concentrating on bringing folks to New Jersey and making them want to stay here that's the goal so that you and thank you for the opportunity do you WanNa do that you want you want businesses to know that they can come the Dafur township go to construction often scattered permanent the folks are going to be friendly they're they're going to help you they're not going to be out canonic development why they're struggling with health costs pension costs which are outta control where Barry here in the State of New Jersey and we need to keep pushing to fix a very short period of time lots and lots of obstacles people like to shop online I mean my daughter who was a teenager who couldn't pull her away from the mall right they go to her her house and it's just box after box after box that's how she shops or location the traffic being on a major highway Haitian with Municipal County and state officials and have them understand what it is you're trying to do is really critical to success easily the question of security whether you're in the city or the suburbs that's going to impact your decision making and to be sure government regulation at every he's great but then there's too much traffic and but it is critical to all of us in New Jersey who lived with our cars to be able to get someplace quickly and actually get paid they started talking to us over three years ago and they're still in the planning stages that doesn't make sense it can't be that hard to Millan now which is impossible to do with a lot of things at work here but that's what we tried it there we make we make up scenarios and we tried it in management corporation. Chris she and I don't know if any folks are here from pse and G. and if you are talk to me after the meeting but they're trying to get it I think it's a transform and they've been working on this for months and ask which is going to bring us to the opening statement of our our forth panelists Chris Raza who is the executive vp and CEO of DLC thus this budget problem gets fixed all of us are going to suffer for it it translates right down to this level where there's no dollars left for things like fixing roads so I just wanted to thank everyone for having me I have a little less gray hair but I do have a ball spot that's coming in right here and sooner or later economic development future planning it Saturday we're not even thinking about I mean that the state senators are up their day they're banging their heads against the wall trying to fix fix them the things like that shouldn't happen it shouldn't be that hard to entitle unintelligible showman Saints Jd Oh we route forty seven level impacts what we do but one of the key words I think both of them say is relationships and we'll probably get more into that but I think having good community it's over ninety shopping centers from call it Minnesota to Texas Florida Maine we have offices in New York DC Chicago Atlanta Dallas and Buffalo brick and mortar retail landlord. I think online shopping you have to embrace it and the retailers that do are successful today or I'm GonNa shake my head so I work for DLC management we own and operate but eighteen and a half million square feet minds shopping is the enemy so today eighty five percent of all retail sales so happened in a brick and mortar store a baroque and look I'm not negating engineers Maroon here I know they're storm there storm water issues there's there's a lot of things that go into but come on like really and we're in the value add real estate game we own open air retail so strip centers some very large some small and we're invaluable absolutely by things that have we see opportunity in and that we can add value like a a property like this all over the country runs right through the centre of cancer we got six state highways the border differ cancer be road or or Skirt Dafur township roof forty-seven as Iraq and if you go to the nearest whatever it is acme giant shoppers and by these four ingredients here's ten more recipes you can majority of retailers who opened a store in a market their online sales grow in that market when they closed the store in a market additionally over fifty percent of online shopping is done through Amazon dot com so if you are in a fight Ota we had a deal with a national retailer that got nuked in Chicago and then you think so who's being successful today I can't think of one retailer and I would challenge anybody to tell me one retailer who lost because of online shopping loose you have to embrace it and make your shopping center mobile friendly shopping center an ECOMMERCE friendly shopping center one of the biggest trends today that's go away so ecommerce is here to stack the ones that are innovative I met with a grocery store recently get your phone and your fridge will tell you you have these three ingredients based on this you can cook these four recipes who went bankrupt because of online shopping they lost because of fundamentals they lost because that that balance sheet support debt they lost because senators and Saturday but the budget message the state of New Jersey affects every one of us in this room and they cut money to help that's where the world is going so as a landlord we have to be ready and prepared for that and so I think that's a good thing for us the fighting of ECOMMERCE their online sales decline the rumor I heard is sax closed the store in the mall of America and they lost eighty percent of their online sales in the state of Minnesota that is working with smart smart bridges so they partnered with Watson so you're going to be able to go and consumer their convenience and they provide a good experience and so for for for some possible to make things convenient everybody's looking for value and today's Day and age as millennials Gen Z. continue to grow they're looking for something Burlington and the likes of starbucks in these in these tenants they're the ones that are succeeding today so KALPA retailers is buy online pick up in store bogus or clicking collect eighty five percent of shoppers who use Schumer's convenience has a cost they don't WanNa pay for that or they can't afford to pay for that others are willing to spend as much money as they didn't innovate they lost because they had poor leadership they didn't have operational excellence very few retailers lost because you could sell them white that's what's helped some retailers it's not online shopping press brick and mortar it's all retailers Amazon that's the reality today and so and and what does Amazon done well this facility and sometimes restaurants office buildings so to me that's an opportunity the biggest threat today is construction costs that is our biggest challenge and no matter how compressed cap rates go no matter how high of rent we get it affable and so that's the biggest threat that I see so my time is up I see the red part thank you little bit more about I from the mayors and then from the two people in real estate how can we from a local we'll I'll comment on a couple of things some of the other panelists said so personally I I think we have to get away from that was sort of a perfect what went on I know that I shop online mark says I can't build multifamily or medical to me that's an opportunity it's allowed me to monetize things that other developers have not been able to bopha spend more money in store when they go to pick it up than their purchase was online so from an opportunity standpoint I actually one of the biggest opportunities I see is so the entanglement of these leases Cathy was talking about his I have a lease with Walmart and active improve communications so that we have a better more thoughtful regional planning process and to get waivers to allow those uses to come in our center we built healthcare facilities we need them for trampoline parks like we did in Deptford New Jersey we need you know for very unusual so the retailers that provide value are experiential anarchy are winning and you look at the off price retailers TJ accent right the three things I think that if you do well in today's environment you will succeed they provide a value proposition I've been talking about this year's and example is in I don't know if this is a great analogy but it is for us because it affected us so that football seemingly that construction costs continued to outpace and so it's becoming a huge challenge to I would argue yes not one of my partners calls me to see w cheap waiver officer at any point in time whether it's for senior living or something else we're going to retailers and using our relationships nine and then I returned in the store but I always buy war when I return so I guess I fit the pattern take a couple of questions if you have questions I'm going to start but if there are others I woke go from there I wanted to sort of talk six months later they came back to the table and they said we've done a million studies when we open a store in a market our online sales grow when we close the store in a market our online sales unlocked the biggest challenge here is the investment thesis the amount you can collecting rent versus what it costs to get that rent is in a lot of places from the developer side I'd like you to sort up also Audi and what have you seen in other places you you work outside of South Jersey what have you seen in other places that were thanks Mike needs to be planning a theory that high tide raises all ships plant thing because if you're why are you hurting one of the biggest retail centers in South Jersey and building thankfully location dictates even Tax Abatement Stole Developers folks who want to move to defer township and open up the and so it's it's tax abatements and pilots someone mentioned pilots but there's also tax beaten stole lied in the State of New Jersey and visit US retail everybody who's Def all Brit demonstrate or forty two they decided to build outlets and that never made sense to me on regional So start with you well reachable plant can focus on that that's a big topic with me and we also thousands that pitch neighbors against neighbors if my name is offering attacks of the where's that business going gallons going to go to my name ding-dong from a traffic perspective as a nightmare and time but on we were we were business but we've lost businesses tax abatements and and what I call regional planning so that's a that's a great topic has to continue the export undergone I can't get a guidance sites by a lectured to find an electric conduit to put in a transformer anywhere and so it municipalities can help thing you said was that communication what can we do communication I think the having having a line Sir Challenge nationwide right now and you know and utility companies are being restrictive on how much capacity then the thought that we work very closely with so yeah there's that condom asked to if if one business effects another it's it's mind boggling to me and you know I think municipalities one of the things they could do is that doesn't cost so Chris what have you seen other places that we don't have here this forming getting better here were Kennel is is the state highways that run through our towns seventy three through forty so getting obviously regional planning framework we're we're very again very burn fortunate have relationship with the county having a significant challenge in getting our Antilles to sites all over the country municipal utility companies are overworked they're outmanned also something's better than nothing that's how most of us live our lives and if we look forward then we have a solution to a problem things a little a little knot the hatched but one of our big okay so this is a this is a challenge that's not unique to New Jersey this is a challenge that's everywhere I mean I think that you think we were very fortunate to have many different hospitals here in words if you drive that major highway you'll see while popping up when Waxman can make a decision in the in the municipality is critical you know I'm often the largest tax payer in any tavern end developers where we're not going to deal with you know intentionally BSE nearly as much as the community will and so I was the Hollywood relationship that we could get open faster because they deal a more than I do because I'm only there for the one building that thing and I need to talk to
The Entrepreneurs - Eureka 179: Long Meadow Ranch
"You're listening to Eureka on monocle. Twenty four with me. Daniel Daniel Beach host of the entrepreneurs on today's episode. My guest is Chris Hall Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of Long Meadow Branch. A family me California Wine Company and integrated agricultural business with four wineries and a ranch along with a restaurant cafe and a farmer's market the business as a whole revolves revolves around the idea of sustainable and responsible farming. The company's journey began when Chris's Parents Ted and Lottie hall purchase. Long Meadow ranch back in nineteen eighty nine. The property had been home to vineyards orchards and dairy farm a century earlier. But had fallen. Dormant during prohibition today as the company deals with the effects of climate change and widespread spread wildfires. We've all seen in the headlines. Long Metal Ranch has become a leader in environmentally friendly and sustainable business practices. What they call full circle farming. Here's here's Chris. With the story of Long Meadow ranch. We came to Napa Valley in one thousand nine hundred nine to what is known as long as a ranch should have had that name since eighteen hundreds but the reason why we came to rashes because we were looking for a place to plant. Cabernet Sauvignon vineyards in the mountains. Not necessarily important to be a Napa but in the Maya mountains which is the range that splits between Napa Valley and Cinema Valley's. My Dad started making wine in his garage in Nineteen seventy-one kind of as an amateur with grapes that he got from the Santa Cruz mountains originally and learned a lot about wine through that process. And eventually we wanted to find the right place to grow our own grape so when I was nine years old. That's when we came to long the ranch in Napa Valley. It had a lot of history but had been neglected so originally in eighteen seventy two. It was planted to Grapes and Olives and farmed his ranch. It was basically farming until prohibition in the nineteen twenties and then sold to a family from San Francisco. who didn't form the grapes? Because you can sell your grapes anymore. It was prohibition so most Napa The valley actually prior to prohibition had about seven hundred wineries and after prohibition that was less than a hundred so a lot of the farms and ranches all kind of reverted to cattle or other crops and thanks so the forest actually grew back over all of the vineyard sites that were planted at that time so when we came to Napa Valley we replanted all those pre prohibition vineyard sites on the ranch but with the vision of just making one wine and today we're making quite a few beyond that but when I was nine and ten years old we would grow like you know a vegetable garden kind of behind the House or down on the on. The ranch in my mom had this idea of it was some entrepreneurial spirit but the you know maybe. I should take these vegetables to the farmers farmers market and in seldom kind of like a kid's lemonade. Stand operation or something like that so. I started taking backyard grown fruits and vegetables to the markets when I was about ten years old and we still doing that today day but on a much larger scale so when I was also about that age I raised cattle and horses and chickens and all of these other livestock that we also eventually began selling the meats as well at the market to our local customers so the evolution today as it has been a long. But it's pretty interesting so today we grow grapes and we make wine. We grow grass for grass-fed beef and lamb. We grow organic fruits and vegetables. We raised chickens for eggs. Bees for honey olives for olive oil. So it's quite a dynamic amick operation of many different facets and we brought that all together in two thousand and ten. I opened a restaurant in Saint Helena Napa Valley called farmstead at long to ranch where we take all all of those ingredients that we grow in the form for the menu at the restaurant and that kind of an experience in the way you described it sounds very idyllic in California and California in the Farm Table Way does influence a lot of what the rest of the Western world and especially America is doing in that eating healthily and eating you know produce from where you come from. I don't know where your food comes from. And you guys starting out where or your parents who when it came to plant Cabernet Sauvignon and revitalize vineyard. You took over. You've always had the sort of the vision of of it being being a responsible place. Can you talk to us a little bit about your motto. In our motto is excellence through responsible farming but we also talk about full circle farming which is kind of our concept. It's up of organics but take a little bit further and something that we're able to do because of all these different facets of what we're farming so organic farming is the foundation of that we farm all of our vineyards and everything that I was just describing organically. We started doing that before. There were certifications before there were rules in place about exactly how to do it so something we've always done. And and the typical practice organic says okay like no commercial. Fertilizers Herbicides and pesticides in those kind of activities. But because we're raising for example cattle and horses and chickens we can take the manures from the livestock and combine it with the solid wastes that we get from the winemaking process for making olive oil. So we're able to produce Oliver. I love her own kind of custom. Fertilizers that we produce a few hundred tons of every year that we can put back on the vineyards orchards. Guess another example would be the top tomatoes that utilize tomatoes that we you serve at the restaurant heirloom tomato salad. The second quality ones might go to the show right. The ones that aren't as pretty for your plate but the third quality ones will feed back to the chickens. Well we don't have to buy as much chicken food because they're eating the leftovers and then of course produces wonderful organic eggs. That can then come back to the restaurant. So there's all these is a little circles that are kind of involved with it that make it a different type of an element that we call full circle. Farming is that what you mean by Sort of the organic sustainable and integrated farming is that what that means the integration of those different facets of what we're doing but beyond just the organic component of it for example we were one of the first adopters of solar power in the wine industry in California so all of our facilities have different amounts of solar installations provide the majority of the power that we use across the property. We collect all of the oil oil the other things that come out of the restaurant and we produce our own biofuels for our tractors and our other equipment. So there's a lot of different ways that this system can combine into one to help the life puts on California's is known for its red wines of course and white wines but to in the new world sense it is sort of a leading place and isn't incredible double world in Napa and Sonoma and some of the values of the properties. Your Business runs across three or four properties. Now I think what's been like to take this over and lead that operation. That is a family run business. Well it's been very rewarding and my father still works alongside of me and a lot of the things that we do strategically in particular but the evolution of the original ranch just that I was describing a few moments ago down to additional vineyards that we've acquired that are in the Rutherford Appalachian down on the valley floor to Anderson Valley which is administered. Where where we also have Chardonnay and Pinot vineyards that were growing and more recently to another historic wine property that is become part of our family called Stony Hill Vineyard which is in the Spring Mountain Mountain Appalachian so those are the four locations and they all provide very distinctively different kinds of terroirs and styles of the wines that we want to represent from each one of them in so expanding our portfolio but also keeping our same philosophies of forming wine style and all of these elements as we continue to expand has been really rewarding process. In the way you described the different properties in different graves and the different terroirs. That is great for having a wide open portfolio of different wines and produce and products. That you you can offer in this world today especially in wine. We hear a lot about how climate change is affecting things and a lot of winemakers mostly in Europe. Perhaps perhaps in California as well where there is a lot of unpredictable weather are having to think about different ways to farm in different graves to grow but it sounds like you might be okay. There you've got got some properties in different places so you can sort of diversified in for in your example of the geography of course as well and I think in particular the mountain locations that were growing in our inherently inherently cooler. That's one of the reasons that we were attracted to them. Because of the the styles of wine that you can produce from cooler sites so I guess that might be one avenue but there is a lot of talk about Kim Cabernet. Still be the top grape or should you plant something else but we plant vineyards really most people who planted vineyard of really planning it for the next generation. Vineyards live twenty to fifty years so making decisions about what you're GONNA do next. Isn't something that you make a decision about. So there's new data that is is available about trying to predict the temperature that will be in your particular location. Tanner twenty or thirty years from now. And you know. I'm not entirely convinced that that we I should be all changing our strategies today but I do believe that. There's a lot of tools that we have today. That can help us with Mitigating climate change in terms of the increase of temperature. And how that helps with the Weinstein's that we produce and so as a farmer in Vineyard we managed the canopy which is the leaves that later on the binds for example they provide shade to the grape fruit zone for example. So the amount of leaving that you can do to prevent the amount of sun exposure that gets onto onto the grapes as another tool that you can have that allows you to you know be nimble as it relates to run season of the next door overall temperatures increasing. Right the other the thing you have to deal with in California and we'll see in the news is the forest fires that have been the last few years. It's it seems like it's nonstop. How has that affected your properties. Well it was. It was very scary in two thousand seventeen. We actually had the fire on our property. And it's a large ranch about six hundred and fifty acres and but the majority of its actually wildland so about half of the ranch actually burned and it was a slow kind of creeping fire that came towards us over the course of a week so I'd go up on the top of the ranch and I could see up to the top of the hill and see see the fire kind of coming and then go up the next day and it made it a little bit closer and then a little closer and so on so I actually am also a volunteer firefighter on the local Rutherford Fire Department. So I guess I had a little bit more incite inexperienced to what to expect but for a lot of our neighbors in In in other in our community that lost actual homes or businesses. We were very lucky so there have been some fires recently again but those haven't been that close to us but have been enough to be concerning and you know the change in the climate. I strongly believe believe has something to do with it. It's high winds. That are unusual. It's longer drier. Summers that create fueled load that allows these things to occur. So it's something that we have to be really cautious about gives gives us a sense of what your up to these days. I know you've mentioned the other property. You've just taken over historical of vineyard but you know thinking about the size and scale of this and how you continue to grow the brand of the company. What might be next for you guys? Oh well we always seem to have additional projects in pocket. So I've got a new winery that we're actually talking for some time. That's in Rutherford. At the moment are wineries that we have in. The mountains are quite small and not sufficient scale to produce all of the wine that we farm. So we're developing a new winery. And Rutherford which I think is really going to be one of the industry standards for sustainability in line production so maybe to just keep it at a higher level but we're cleaning our tanks. Thanks with water that we're able to recycle several times so a typical winery that makes one gallon of wide uses up to ten gallons of water in through this process that we're implementing. We believe we're GONNA only only be able to use one gallon of water to make one gallon of wine which is ten times decrease so as a result of this. We're going to actually be collecting rainwater to do all of the processes that we do in wine production and therefore we're not going to have to use any groundwater so a groundwater neutral winery is really bold idea and that's one element of it using solar power and storage batteries stories and solar collection to generate ice which replaces a terrific channel cooling process. When you're making one so that also dramatically reduces the amount of energy that we need so we're actually going to be off the grid which is also an interesting idea for new winery and all of the effluent that comes off of this process is actually much lower right because you using only one gallon instead instead of ten gallons of water were able to use that to irrigate back on the vineyards so there's also no effluent and no hazardous materials because we're not using clay call for cooling so you mind those four things. Those are all new to the industry but some of them have been used in the beer business. Were in other farming activities. And but we're going to bring these together to create a new kind of sustainable standard. I believe for wine production in the sense of Your Business. Where it's all encompassing? You're making olive oil as you're already described growing fruit growing vegetables tables You've got a restaurant. Farmers market all these properties for making wine. Is that normal in California. No that's that's not normal. It's not normal Many places I mean the concept of an integrated wine estate in Europe or other places a little bit more common but in California at least in Napa Valley there's a lot of protections that have been put in place rightfully awfully so for maintaining agricultural land in perpetuity. So we have something called the preserved in Napa County. which is one of the reasons why I believe that? It's been able to continue to be so beautiful and primarily on agricultural community for example so most wineries who are out in the vineyards for example. You're not allowed to get permission missions to build a hotel right there to build a restaurant right there so you have to go into the town to do that. And that's what we've done is chosen to open the restaurant operation in Saint Helena in the downtown area so that we're able to do all of the different things that we would like to but with respect to the place. Thank you Chris Hall from Longman Ranch for coming in to share the story of the family business and there are plenty of opportunities to visit their properties. If you're in northern California when you find them at long meadow ranch dot com. The show is mixing netted by nor. I'm Daniel Beach. Thank you so much for listening and goodbye
Fannie Mae COO Kimberly Johnson
"Welcome to technovation a weekly conversation with people who are shaping the technology landscape. I'm Peter hi president of meta strategy advisor to technology Executives Sports columnists joke author and your host each episode of technovation features insights from Top Executives and thought leaders at the intersection of business technology and Innovation, if you like what you hear we'd be grateful if you give us a rating of iTunes or through whatever other source you use for podcasts and please subscribe so you don't miss a thing. Thank you, I guess today is Kimberly Johnson Kimberly is the Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of Fannie Mae leader in the secondary mortgage Market with revenues exceeding one hundred and twenty billion dollars annually has CLL Kimberly's responsible for overseeing the company's technology operations Innovation, data off and strategic execution functions over the past Dozen Years. She's held a variety of executive roles at Fannie Mae including Chief risk officer and chief credit officer in this interview. We discuss her take on the renewed focus on Thursday. Injustice in our society and the role technology can play to help Foster change. We also talked about how the concept of anti-racism is gaining traction as well as some of the group's Kimberly admires that are paying attention this issue. We also discuss how the covid-19 pandemic is brought out more empathy and people the importance of diversifying your slate of mentors and mentees in a variety of other topics before we get to our interview. I wanted to introduce you to our sponsor Zoho and the company's president Timothy Cosby prior to taking on his current role. He was a Chief Information officer of a number of companies including Reliance Industries Sears and trucks on and the warehouse club. He's now at Zoho a most unusual Enterprise software company and wanted to share some perspectives from it didn't take it away. The whole Finance plus is a unified Finance platform here. We have bundled on a different apps to align Finance processes of most Enterprises starting with invoicing books inventory subscription expense management payroll and check out to collect all your payments wage. Out of the box integration with stripe PayPal wordplay and many others Java books provides end-to-end accounting right from negotiating deals to raising orders to invoicing it handles all the mundane tasks. So you could focus on your business invoice your customers for one time or subscription-based payment plans help your employees do their expense management with single touch from mobile device with multi-agency multi-bank multi-country support learn more ads or Finance. Thanks Timothy. And now on to the interview. I thought we begin with just your own kind of General Reflections on the on the black lives matter movement more generally the current social unrest following the death of George Floyd and other Institute instigating factors. Maybe you should take a moment and just reflect if you would well I have to say it has really been a quite a remarkable spring and summer like we're just at a a fascinating time where so many things are are coming together dead. We are experiencing a a social justice movement that the same time that we're really trying to whether a global pandemic that's having very disparate outcome on our communities of color and I think that's been a real eye-opener demonstrates how socioeconomic status can impact access to education employment housing Health Care people are just beginning to realize these things are both connected and related and and the system reinforces the status quo. So I think that's having a lot to the sort of social consciousness of of the country club that one things that that is remarkable to me. Is that why you feel so different like we've seen these types of incidents that that was tragic, but it's certainly not the first time that you've seen a break consisted the victims of police brutality, but a lot of us are you know home I've been on lockdown for months of people are watching the news. They're more in tune to themselves their families. Your values they're thinking about sort of you know, the meaning of life and Community all these things. I think are are waiting on people in a different way right now. So I'd say that having a long time to reflect his brought her to look at more empathetic people and I'm I'm really grateful and and this hopeful that we have a real opportunity to embrace a change that that could be sustained and and we can hope we see some lasting evolution in the way that we treat each other. I really liked that. I've not heard anyone put it that way having had this conversation with a number of of friends and colleagues. I am I that's a really poignant point you make about the difference now and the fact that perhaps there's a if there is a silver lining it is that the fact that we're all with our families and have an opportunity to reflect further along with those who we love most perhaps it gives us A Renewed emphasis those of Goodwill perhaps to rethink things and and and improve things wherever they can. I think so. I think people are spending a lot of time thinking about the trade-offs we make is the society and what's important to them and for their values lie and what kind of a world we want to live in and how we want to leave this to our kids and took a lot of things to ponder Kimberly. I you know, somebody like yourself is no doubt and inspiration to others as you've blazed a path that perhaps them are men and women of color might follow to to rise to the role in your case of Chief Operating Officer of Fannie Mae major executive at a major corporation. And and thankfully there there's there are a growing number of people who have who have been able to to to those pads, but I'm curious as you were starting in your professional who are some of the people who were important to you who were some of your personal and professional mentors and I'm curious, you know, how you kind of describe your own thought process went dead. To empowering people of color from that perspective. Yeah. Well, I have to tell you I am very fortunate. I have had a gland number mentors and sponsors and people who have helped me navigate my career. I mean so many I couldn't even begin to name them but I can't tell you that mentoring is really really important. It's important to me as both a recipient and a provider of I find that I get the most value out of having, you know, a few trust folks that I can talk to but it's really the breadth of your network that matters having people that connect with us personally and professionally is essential and people who are tuned to your own position and experiences so that they can cater their advice and their counsel to you. But I am having people who are you know, men who are women who are younger who are older who are in my field and who are completely outside. It helps me broaden my own perspective and it helps me relate dead. It seems that I might not be seeing through the same lenses. And so I find that that is the most helpful thing is to make sure that you really do diversify your sleigh Dementors and when it comes to mentoring, I'm a huge believer in making sure that you you Mentor everyone equally I get lots to your point. I have lots of women and minorities who come and ask me for advice and I try to say yes much as I possibly can but I also make sure that I I met lots of men and I meant or lots of people of all Races or nationalities because if if it's white people can't see black people as leaders and go to them for advice and and be excited to get their perspective then we're missing out on a huge opportunity. So I think that it's important for minority leaders to to Mentor everybody not just other minorities. That's a great Point. How would you or have you counseled collie dog? Listen and others on your team as to the role they can play and improving opportunities for four people of color employees current and future. Well, this is a tough one. I think that this is something that I get asked a lot and the thing that strikes me all the time is there's there's no one answer is not a specific passages Playbook, but there are a couple of Concepts that I think are really important. I think that in order to create an environment that is open and inclusive and has rumor versity. We have to create an environment too has trust and one of my favorite favorite lectures that I've ever been to was at Harvard Business School and it was about how to create trust and it works out a personal basis and also works in a corporate environment but Frances Frei who's a terrific author and she's written Lots on on Thursday. Customers and creating value and and she gave this great Paradigm about trust and she said has three aspects logic authenticity and empathy and I asked me if you're trying to create a culture of trust in a company. You have to start with logic and logic is all about understanding facts and data in history. Right like over here a lot around Black History Month the black history is American history. It is a subset of what is happening in America and I think that the more we can inform our colleagues and the the book surrounded they have a better perspective that they can apply to the logic and understanding of their interactions that workplace. So I think being informed and applying that logic is step one making sure you get the right fax information. I think when it comes to authenticity, this is probably the hardest one because talking about race relations is really uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. But necessary I think rep progress is change and change is uncomfortable. And if we're going to make any progress on this front, we're going to have to be a little bit uncomfortable everybody. I know gets nervous talking about race people are afraid that there is something that's misunderstood or something. I'll be offensive and it happens on, you know, both sides of the equation and I guess it's just a point of working through that discomfort. If we don't talk about ourselves experiences, then we can't be present and engaged as part of the workforce. So I think that's a a huge requirement for authenticity. And I think that also paved the way for that that last aspect which is is empathy and that's the thing that I've seen change more than anything else in the last three months and I think it's going to really log in and bringing the national Dialogue on race relations upper level again a really great insights there. Appreciate you sharing that I'm curious if somebody who has technology ultimately rolling down to you is a part of your set of responsibilities. Do you feel like there is a role technology can play in in some of the changes that you've tried got mixed feelings on this one. I think the technology is a great tool but we also have to understand its limitations like one of our Tendencies and Technologies to break things down into patterns great for efficiency and simplicity and consistency, but the thing is dead. People don't fit very neatly into patterns The Human Experience is really individuals. So at the end of the day, you can't code values and understanding people as a human connection that just can't be done through pattern recognition. But at the same time, I think that technology can play a role in some of the solutions to you can use technology to create access to information exposure to Asian Concepts outside of our immediate experiences. Like the internet has been phenomenal for creating much more awareness technology can broaden Horizons. It can generate no power for convening. I think access to Technologies are really important Concepts that we all need to pay attention to in terms of equality, but I love the idea that technology can amplify new ideas and she quickly generate scale and acceptance and I think that's going to be really helpful, too. You've already mentioned a few few aspects of what's going on. Now. They give you reason for optimism The increased empathy the fact that there is a different kind of dialogue and perhaps a silver lining of a most another most unfortunate situation, which is endemic itself. And I wonder are there any other things that as you reflect upon the reasons to remain optimistic? I I sometimes worry, of course that you know the extent to which these sorts of circumstances naturally lead to pessimism oftentimes pessimism itself wage work against progress. And so it's it's encouraging to hear a leader like yourself talk about, you know, though, they're of course at work to be done and improvements yet to be made either of them in fact, but that there's there's charging some of the progress and Counting some of the reasons for for optimism. I think can be a really positive thing maybe list to say curious if there's any dog It comes to mind. Yeah, I had a fantastic personal experience. I took my daughter's down to a black lives Plaza the day after it opened and my husband and I debated it because you know, it was still during a time when there was a lot of risk going around because of of the covid-19, but we really wanted them to be a part of an experience that seemed like it could be a moment of inflection on sort of Arc of progress around race relations in America. And when we got down there, I was absolutely Amazed by the number of people who are there peacefully protested but being really adamant about support for black lives matter people who are not black like it was majority Caucasian, Asian Hispanic, like we saw people of all types of shapes and sizes and that to me was really encouraging that this maybe isn't just a black problem. This isn't a marriage Problem and I think that we're going to find American Solutions. So I love the idea that people are just starting to realize that the racism isn't a character flaw that gets in bed took pains. Sometimes just ingrained in the system over time based on historical norms and the concept of anti-racism is gaining traction. And I think that is really encouraging because the more people who took that mindset the more cope I have that we can look up to our American ideals and quality. So I I think there's some really good things happening or general inquiries. Are there any uh-huh have any organizations that have been particularly meaningful for you that you would recommend others become aware of curious if there's any any in particular that you would wish to pinpoint Well, one of the things that I think is terrific is making sure that we do corporations support groups that do programming and mentorship and Thursday appointment for four people who are underrepresented in technology the information technology Senior Management forum itsmf is one that we supported in the past and I think both sides terrific opportunities for people of color. I personally have met alumni of inroads. That's a non-profit that would provide diverse students and under-served students opportunities for employment that they can do mentorships and and learn how to work in all kinds of different environments and I I loved my experience it in road that I sneak support that organization with a lot of enthusiasm and I guess I'd take a loss one, but I really appreciate and like is Europe. I don't know if you've ever heard of Europe, but if they provide birth Fantastic, we we hired Europe in terms every year because we find that the the graduates there are terrific hard-working highly-capable folks who suck at a lot to our our Workforce and more excited about that that program so there's a few but I think it's important to continue supporting those types of things if we want to have a diverse pipeline of talent. That's excellent. Well Kimberly, I really appreciate your willingness to to chat with me about these topics. I appreciate your willingness to to not only share your own experiences, but also the broader depth of your wage. This is really been a great and meaningful conversation. I appreciate you give me a chance to talk about it and I look forward to hearing all the things that everybody's got to say. Thanks for tuning in off on me on Monday when my guess will be Verizon global Chief Information officer, Shankar, Haruka Valu
A Small Molecule Cancer Drug That Promotes an Adaptive Immune Response
"Hey listeners of the bauer report before we jump into this week's episode. I wanted to tell you about the bio verge podcast. This is a new podcast. Featuring neil levin media group is neal's first guest is jonathan thomas. The chairman of the california institute for genitive medicine in november california voters approved a five point. Five billion dollar bond measure to extend the life of the institute. Thomas talks about the future of sermon. Its plans to expand the investments. It's making in regenerative medicine. Look for the bio verge. Podcast on soundcloud. I tunes and other popular podcast platforms. I'm daniel levin and this is the bio report a foss. Patent therapeutics is developing a class of small molecule cancer therapies designed to avoid the problems of drug resistant toxicity associated with chemotherapies. The company's lead experimental therapy is a first in class small molecule that promotes genyk cell death type of cell death that elicits an immune response. We spoke to matthew price founder. Executive vice president and chief operating officer foss puttin about the company's lead therapy. It's most people mechanisms of action and why it may have benefit in a broad range of cancers matt. Thanks for joining us. It's a pleasure nice to meet you. Danny i'm glad to be here. We're going to talk about fos flatten. Its lead therapy. Which has multiple mechanisms of action and how it works to enlist the immune system to kill cancer cells. Let's start with your lead therapeutic. Pt on twelve. Which is a first class. Harrow phosphate platinum conjugate. Break that down in simple terms. What is it thank you. That's a good question. I think maybe i'll just briefly tell you a little bit about the company and how we got to where we are with this molecule. Pt one to foss platin- therapeutics was founded by myself. And our ceo robert fallon my fellow co founder in two thousand ten and we really built the the company around this family of compounds that we in license at the discovery. Stage which comprise these Family of these first in class pi-rre phosphate platinum conjugates and based in new york. Although these days that that means something different than it used to We have a nice Small office here in midtown with our management team. Of course now are all working remotely and we worked our way through preclinical and early clinical development by running collaborations around the world. We've actually had worked ongoing in fifteen countries Since we started and These are academe amick. A- collaborations contract research organizations clinical sites but also industry collaborators We we have a an existing collaboration with pfizer and their co-development partner. Md serono or merck darmstadt on one of the combination programs that were running and we're still private company in early phase two development with pt. One too so to your question about pt to is a small molecule and actually to our knowledge. It's the first anti cancer agent containing a pirate phosphate and This has implications on its safety. Its pharmacokinetics to mechanism of action. And even on its. It's targeting where it's delivery within the body and i'm sure we can get into that further as we go. I generally think of conjugated therapies is linking targeting mechanism to a- warhead. I take it the way. Pt one to works is a bit different. What exactly conjugated in pt. One two and what to each those components do it's a great question i think we. We certainly are not an antibody drug conjugate. I don't want to give that impression. I think we're thinking of conjugation. As a medicinal chemistry term that goes back to certainly before the advent of of adc's in cancer care Our inventor of the late refunder bose was actually the first researcher able to successfully link or conjugate a pyro phosphate to platinum core molecule. And of course Platinum molecules with platinum in their core have been a mainstay of of cancer. Care for some time now. He was really seeking through his work in medicinal chemistry To find a new paradigm for a platinum containing agents he did so by congregating power phosphate. And what that does is because the para phosphate is so strongly linked. It remains intact for the most part in the body theory differently from cytotoxic agents and certainly from other platinum containing agents Pyro phosphate also benign in the body Native to healthy cells so you'll the respiration so we're not adding something that's in and of itself toxic And then you mentioned delivery or targeting mechanism. Actually in a sense. We believe that the power phosphate is is doing that. In part in ways that we didn't expect when we first began the program To give you an example it it can take the drug both to soft tissue cancers off on the basis of systemic distribution of the small molecule but We in our research found that it reaches his highest concentrations in the mineral mineralized bone. And that's something we refer to as osteo tropism or you could call it bone seeking behavior and so actually this does lead to a concept of of targeting With this drug and then Mechanistically what Has been shown with small molecule. Medicinal chemistry. not just by us Is that changes in the the ligon or the conjugate can really alter the downstream mechanistic impact of a of a given small molecule. That certainly is the case with pt woman. We've now been able to show based on the preclinical models that we've used that it appears to be the most potent inducer of something. We call immunogenetics cell death and that's a property that really brings it square within the contemporary era that we're living in of of cancer immunotherapy. Pt one twelve works to activate the adaptive immune response. What exactly is doing to accomplish that it. This is a key question and There lot of efforts out there in in cancer care to to solve and to perfect the involvement of immune system in innately or adaptively attacking. A tumor cancer is evolutionary and tends to find out ways to hide itself from the host immune system and pretend that it's normal and so it it can take a kind of a priming effect to overcome that cloaking. That's how we look at what we call a mutagenic cell death and this is a field of research that was originated by a small number of researchers. I in paris one of whom his name is. Lorenzo gallucci us now. A phd researcher. Here new york at weill cornell medical college. We've been working closely with him. We've now published with him on his ability to promote i cd or immunologic death and to put it very simply when pt won't to kills a cancer cell which it does effectively that sell in a rather rare fashion can leak out What are called dangerous signals or damaged signals. When a certain number of these come together it's referred to as damage associated molecular pattern and so these researchers have determined that there is a finite set of these that have to come together and when they do they actually bind to dendritic cells which are like the sentinels The surveillance of the immune system and these dendritic cell suddenly realize there's a problem namely the tumor And they can then convey this information to t cells which can Become immune effector cells infiltrating the tumor and attacking it as as cytotoxic or helper t cells. So you can think of icy initiated by p t two like a match to to the light up the immune system within the tumor micro environment is the expectation that pt one one would be used as a monotherapy or would if used in combination with other immunotherapy or other answer age. The the short answer to that is both so. We've run to phase ones. With the monotherapy a one was our first human in solid tumors and the other was our i. Work in. Hematological oncology with a a study Run by the mayo clinic in Multiple myeloma which we recently reported And then the third program is a combination program with pedia one. Immune checkpoint inhibitor and. That's the program we've designed together with pfizer and and merck darmstadt So so both the mono therapy and certain combinations we believe are going to be carried forward and with the monotherapy to your question about immune response we. We were able to see Something indicative of icpd happening in human patients when we saw To patients in particular on our first in human study have bona fide responses to the drug that persisted for quite a long time after treatment stopped and that is something. That's pretty unusual. In the context of call cytotoxic cancer treatment often tumors will simply either relapse or will re grow when treatment is withdrawn. And so we took that as very interesting early bit of evidence that has prompted us to look even further in our go. Forward clinical efforts at what we call the immune profile of patients being treated with the monotherapy and with the combination. So we'd like be able to show in time that pty onto in the clinic stands on. Its own as as a as an immunotherapy we've shown that in the preclinical work that that's published And then of course as you pointed out. I mean contemporary cancer. Care certainly is moving more and more ultimately towards use of combinations and so the effort on our part is going to be to Continue to investigate which combinations should be the right ones with pt one to one of the challenges with immunotherapy as has been the development of both resistance and relapse what's the expectation that pt one. One two might be different than other immunotherapy in this regard well It's a this is difficult biology so the you know the the more simple way of looking at it is if we think of of pt one to having this priming mechanism we may be able to initiate a sequence of of immune events that were not present when other modalities were used so for example immune checkpoint inhibitors have been shown for the most part to have their lease likelihood of response when t cells are not present in the tumor to begin with right If you're taking the brakes off of the t. Cell interaction with the tumor. Which is what checkpoint inhibitors. Do and the t. cells are not present. You have a problem. That's a little bit simplistic but i think it's a pretty real issue. And so what we found in our preclinical work with pt one onto using mouse models. Where we can actually count. The number of cells is at this. Priming mechanism was leading to increase in the number of of t cells and immune effector cells in even to a slight decrease in immunosuppressive sells like regulatory t cells or certain tumor associated macrophages so if we can replicate that kind of understanding in human patients will have we will have a basis on which to believe that Pt won't to really can either avoid or let's say circumnavigates some of those resistance issues. That have been talked about with immunotherapy. Pt one one two is in development for multiple cancers its lead indications are metastatic castration resistant prostate cancer and fight moma which is a rare cancer of the famous clad. Why those indications starting point you now have put your finger on the one of the one of the great questions that biotech management has to wrestle with danny And i just give you our outlook on it. Which is you know maybe different from that of others but We wrestled with this question during our early phase one work and and by the way i would add multiple myeloma to that list because we we have completed our phase one in multiple myeloma which which did have some early evidence of drug activity That was reported at ash. The american society of hematology in in december. So how did we come up with those three disease targets. While in the case of prostate cancer we had gotten to know these properties of the drug. That i've discussed so principally the core The core safety profile the drug which we learned about during phase one The tendency of the drug to reach us highest concentrations of mineralized bone and the mutagenic cell death. And we said it. Is there a disease type. That is lacking safe. Therapies in the sort of late line of drug development That might go to the bone and require Immune priming and prostate cancer at least in his late stage. What we call. 'em crp's metastatic castration. Resistant or hormone resistant. Prostate cancer cr. Pc has a very clear profile that patients to eighty or ninety percent in that late stage tend to have metastatic disease in the bone. And we've recently learned through work of pem. Sharma who published from md anderson that these bone metastatic sites disease or rather uniquely immunosuppressive in in nature. They create their own immunosuppressive tumor micro environment and the field already thought of prostate cancers what they would call an immune cold disease so there was not a sort of ready readily obvious place for immune involvement of disease to to suggest that immunotherapy would be exceptionally effective. So we we. We use the attributes of the drug to to decide to target this disease. Then we began to work with wonderful collaborators in prostate cancer field allen. Bryce the mayo clinic had treated our first patients during phase one and began to help us to craft what the next stage of development might look like. That now includes Folks like howard share here new york memorial sloan kettering cancer center who is the chairman of the prostate cancer. Working group And of the genital urinary disease group at memorial and others who come to to really support us in these efforts so that that's one example fi moma the the the opposite school of thought which is Perhaps more empirical. So what did we observe. And what tell us about where we should go and it turns out that in our later. Part of our phase one development which was led by daniel carp at md anderson cancer center in houston who has one of the faculty members in their investigational cancer. Therapeutics group was running their phase one center in houston Had a thigh moma patient because that cancer hospital draws patients from far and wide and find moma's very rare and we certainly would never have expected to be treating a real a real rare disease patient on our first in human study in that first patient responded so dramatically in for so long that we set ourselves. We'd be crazy not to try to pursue this in some fashion and now we have a dialogue going with the national cancer institute to look at moma in a in a phase two contexts together and we're hopeful launch that study later this year ultimately how broadly applicable do you think. Pt one one might be well We'd like to think broadly but as a biotech company we have to work with focus right so these disease areas were were focused on our are cleared us now and i think we've from among them we will. We will craft our Our late stage are pivotal or registration development and Certainly hope and believe we'll be able to register this as a medicine in the us and around the world And then i think the answer your question ends up being more In in the later stage perhaps in the post post marketing stage of development. Where we could look to broaden the use of the drug to other to other areas of cancer care or other disease types I think That that a little too premature for me to talk about those but there there are areas where we think opportunities after our initial drug approvals should be should be realistic. Is there some characteristic that makes a particular cancer a good indication for this. I think we start again the way we look at things you know. There's a bedrock of of safety so We were able to stand on the on the shoulder of the drug being safe. And then survey the landscape and We have an active phase. Two now in metastatic crp see prostate cancer That study. I believe is going to enroll well and be successful and will take us forward. And i described how we identify that candidate. I think Perhaps referring to multiple myeloma again is another way to look at this question. So you know there is a logic to how we would approach multiple myeloma again. We're bringing in immuno-genetic mechanism Essentially to the site of disease in the bone to the origin of disease in the bone in the case of multiple myeloma. So both of those cases were leveraging these attributes of the drug in the case of myeloma. We have to look forward too much more towards combinatorial therapy because that really is the standard of care there. There isn't much of a use of single agent therapies in multiple myeloma that that's like adding another layer to the matrix right of how we decide on an indication of because we have to understand what the different combination modalities might might look like and that's something we're working on right now and what's known about the drug from studies today in the phase one setting you know. I have to be careful not to make any claims about the drug which. I'm sure you can appreciate. I can't tell you though. This is now been reported on all three of our phase ones. We have seen across each of those studies it consistent pattern of safety. Pt one two and we have seen evidence preliminary early evidence of activity of the drug. That we are confident. We can attribute to the drug and to have a drug that appears to be safe and active in a very heavily pre-treated phase. One population is the sort of the the first main hurdle that we've we've cleared as a clinical development company and those three studies. I can just highlight how where they were reported to date. So the first in human phase one in solid tumors was reported at the european society. Medical oncology as mo and that study to are pleasant. Surprise was awarded the best poster in its category of developmental therapeutics. And we had something on the order of fifty. Other phase wants in that category. And you can imagine they were from all kinds of different biotech even big pharma companies. So we really were. Were like a like a david and goliath that stage and quite quite pleased to receive that honor. The second phase wants to be reported was our combination dose escalation with pfizer and he. Md serono that was reported. Also at as mo- twenty twenty in an oral presentation this last fall and then the third of the three phase ones was are multiple. Myeloma study reported at ashes. I mentioned in december and we really have have been fortunate to work with excellent collaborators even at the very early stage of development in that that trend we were very thankful is is continuing. The company is private. it's raised eighteen. Point four million in august through a private financing. It was unclear to me from the pressure. Lease who funded the company but was this. Participation from venture capital firms was this family offices and high net worth individuals. Well i apologize if it was unclear. It's probably because the private nature of the participants is is Remains confidential at stage. But i can't answer your question more generally at yes we raise eighteen. Point four million dollars. I believe that closed on july thirty first last summer that was a private round of taking our total capital. Raised to date to fifty six million dollars and We have been very fortunate to do that. initially through several of us Founders at the stage and then of course through high net worth individuals and then most more recently in the last four or five years through global family offices which have become stalwart supporters of ours. Have been there to to help us. Scale up to this stage of clinical development a couple of those groups Particularly from europe are are recognized attack in biotech investors so we have gained some some wonderful expertise from them. Both technically more more so strategically which is spent extremely helpful. And it's our goal this year probably in the first half of this year to raise our first institutional capital round with what you think of as traditional us institutional venture capital or private quits. And we've begun those kinds of discussions already and believe we've got a a program worth worth backing And it has been Fortunate for us to be able to operate through into the phase two setting with the backing that that we have. We've we've had the great support Degree of freedom. I think to to learn what we needed to learn about the drug at this stage of development. Now it's really about scaling and executing getting this this medicine to patients because it really should be a medicine and not justice investigational agents. And how far do you expect existing funding to attack. You always a good question. Were well-funded now. For for what we're doing. I think the the plan really is is about scaling we. We have to add depth to add numbers of patients to the program. We have to choose the right Parallel paths to have ongoing and deepen those into interface. To twenty twenty. One will be a year for the company to have an inflection point into Deeper scale of institutional capital and We we foresee Being able to launch a pivotal study after this phase two of a framework that we're in and having the drug registered upon upon the success. We believe we can have matthew. Price co founder executive vice president and chief operating officer of spot and therapeutics matthew. Thanks so much for your time. Today danny was a pleasure. I really appreciate it thank you. Thanks for listening. The buyer report is a production of the levin media group to automatically. Download this podcast. Each week subscribe to our rss screen or through itunes or other podcasts manager join our mailing liskeard levin group dot com. We'd love to hear from you if you want to drop us a line or interested in sponsoring this podcast send email to danny. At levin media group dotcom special facts to joe levin who composed are themes and. John levine collective which performs.
The Role of Entrepreneurship in Diversifying the Nigerian Economy
"We are the waned in the sales of your business. We are your compass chart your course towards your targets africa business radio to it a profitable africa africa is rising say but africa must rise with people they know africa without its people. How vin do we harness africa's wealthier through social change and development social conscience with nasa comics to aspirations six of the africa agenda twenty six and the global development goal we advocate social change and development entire transformation africa crazy join us every week at six thirty pm. Gmt plus one do hello and welcome to another exciting episode of social conscience with nasa s. Cw n right here at the africa. Business reduce studio in lagos nigeria. I remain your host with the most nasa. So it's the last episode for the month and after several conversations about entrepreneurship across some parts of africa. I thought it was a good week to be bring him back to nigeria the alleged giant of africa and over the past few conversations. I've had you know about entrepreneurship on the continent. There's been some challenges that cut across one of the ones that to dot for me the narrative of entrepreneurship as sort of a plan. B for the unemployed. Njit us we have so you find. People going into entrepreneurship is a second option. Because they're able to get employed and this makes me question the potential for the sustainability of small businesses if the origins of these businesses already starting off with this sort of fluid mindsets Today the topic for discussion. Ease the will of entrepreneurship in diversifying the nigerian economy and it was inspired by very good friend of mine. I kinda moore who is an sme banking specialist with one of the leading commercial banks in nigeria and it also happens to be that nigeria officially lead into recession. So it's for me a timely conversation to have and to have this conversation with me are two gentlemen who very cerebral yet relatable. And they'll be in to shed the views on the topic based on the vast wealth of experience across the globe. But before introduce them. Please stay right here with me. I can on a quick break. We are the waned in the sales of your business. We are your compass chart your course towards your targets. Africa business radio to it. A profitable africa. Africa is raising. They say africa must rise with its people. The ease new africa with rights people. How van do we harness africa's wealthy who say she'll change and development social conscience nasa coming to aspiration. Six of the africa is twenty six three and a global development goal. We advocate social change. Angry about transformation. Africa join us every at six thirty pm. Dnc welcome back. And if you're just tuning in its social conscience with nasa on business. Radio and the topic is the role of entrepreneurship in diversifying niger. Economy and to put some context to this so entrepreneurial activities have been found the world over to be capable of making positive impact on the economy of a nation and the quality of life for the people which in turn stimulates economic growth and empowerment of the marginalized so many countries have been able to sort of energize and transform the entrepreneurship subsector which has been reduced to the barest. Minimum their unemployment and poverty levels the official announcements of another recession in nigeria. For me as a strong statement about increased poverty levels in the country so how does a diversified economy address this current states. And what will does entrepreneurship plea. And what are the realities of entrepreneurs in nigeria. You know what we have to deal with to thrive to help shed light on these questions as mentioned prior. I have two gentlemen who i have a great deal of respect for and they're very progressive leaders in their respective roles and jimmy support young nigerians. I is dr andrew s nevin. One of pws's leading global thinkers working at the complex intersection of economic strategy capital kids and investment. He's wc west africa's financial services across assurance tax and advisory and has almost thirty three years of professional and entrepreneurial private equity investor line manager economic strategy consultant over his professional career. He has previously lived in asia. North america and europe and is now based in league since two thousand and twelve. He describes himself as a tireless advocates for innovation and he's one of the leading advocates for blockchain technology adoption in the country including sponsoring the blockchain website www blockchain africa dot. Io second is very walled. Quebec idea co founder vice president and chief operating officer of deep solution a building infrastructure and top technology solutions provider in west africa. He's a business. Strategy and technology consultants with over twenty years experience in technology and business strategy. And he's a non executive director of a nation's capital nigeria leading emerging and frontier markets investment bank with access to over fifty markets globally. He's interest also spent venture capitalism and entrepreneurship with significant interest in mentorship and funding start-ups. He's committed to supporting putting social welfare programs that improve lives and communities and he's created the weasel foundation which offers credible and feasible opportunities for private individuals and enterprises to execute philanthropic corporate social. Responsibility assessed inability initiatives to also add to that oswald is the author of the book in pursuits africa. Which is a book. He code with a friend coordinating their entrepreneurship journey in nigeria to my listeners. Please feel free to weigh in by sending your questions or comments to africa b.'s. Radio that's africa be is is radio one word on twitter with the se w n pokey andrew nsa very long profile and very impressive and thank you for accepting to join and share your perspectives wing. Have very powerful gentleman on the show. Then you know it's a big dunton so thank you very much for accepting to be part of this conversation. Thanks for having us. Nasa you luck come okay so you had all that background context that i provided and the topic so i know how you guys to see how you doing. Just jump right into questions. Well what what sort of say we're all trying these days. I mean it's not easy with all the challenges the world of course challenges nigerians challenges elsewhere. Everyone knows trying. So we're doing okay can do you know they say about challenges the more challenging then the opportunities right by age i don't know how many more opportunities and challenges but they're not that old as well we work through the challenges right so i guess like we say niger where money general. That's managing. okay. So the topic is the role of entrepreneurship in diversifying niger. As it can. And before i go to like the technical questions as where i just like to know from your perspective. What is entrepreneurship. What entrepreneurship mean to you. And i'll start with you as well. So i mean it's a set of skill sets is characteristics but the end of the day. Enterpreneurship is really risk management right. So it's it's when you decide the idea that you have in your hand or your mind is something that you're gonna feed yourself with and then you walk out the door employer or school and you pursue that that idea and you believe that this idea is gonna feed you. Because is coming the snowman that that means out you know doing your own business you could very working for a company in having enterpreneur mindset which most referred to as an entrepreneur right so have that mindset. You know you run your business. I e commerce ideas every day. You're driving home and it's just kind of your thing but you haven't quite taking that risk at you haven't walked out the door and said you know this new dewey i'm gonna put into the market and is doing. He's going to do that. You become fantastic. Elect agree with you about like to hear from andrew as well andrew. What's entrepreneurship to you. Offer me entrepreneurs ship is just anyone that steps up and tries to make a big change right. I mean you come into this world and you can either go with the flow or you can try to tend to make something happen to be different than so. Entrepeneurship can be expressed in in so many different ways. Obviously people start. Businesses will get into that. It's not so easy. Says the interest of people with incomes me that may change the take risks and make change but of course in applies to things outside of business to i know so many young nigerians everyday time new young nigerians tried to do things with ngos that make positive change in their community in teaching and mental health and man's initiative is a good one someone who just stepped up and trying to make a difference so for me. Entrepreneurship happens everywhere. In nigeria and young people are driving. And so it's very exciting to see and of course just like we have entrepreneurs that are trying to drive change. We sat have forces in nigeria trying to prevent. So you have a titanic battle between good and isn't that just that okay interesting. I thank you very much for your definition. And what i like about. We'll both of you have said is if i were to bring that together visit purposefulness about trump and like you said as i always say that it's not until you get a loan to start your business. Then you become an entrepreneur. You start demonstrates the characteristics of intrepid no even within an organization because it's a mindset so that ability to take ownership and andrew to your point that sort of drive or purpose to want to make a difference to create value right so i asked this question for a reason right so everybody talks about the youtube population in africa in nigeria. And how this huge. For entrepreneurship to thrive but with the high level of employment entrepreneurship for me. Just an appears to be like a plan. D so he takes away from that purposefulness. This is my interpretation and people. Just do it. Because it's the next best alternative to not having a job. So what does this mean for the sustainability of the kind of businesses that these people then go on to stop and isn't way we see that you know. Businesses only lasts for a short while and do last the long haul Who wants to go first. So i would say i mean. Nigeria tends to break models right so this is interesting things that you bring tonight journey. Make sense royals. It tends to it has broken. They're just because of the way. The system is lacking a process who it. So if you think about that. That's a phrase that says You know in the lack is the mother of innovation that same things. We're doing nitrile you say. Is that innovative. Who his own on the strict side of the street is that innovation or is that a feeling a gap. There's actual gap there's no power and he's providing service And then you also have to think about me. I get your point about the fact that being this no job so you have to do something but you get a perspective that we have a lot of nothing so there's a lot of opportunities Embedded in that. So there's a low that the even people who have jobs may be distracted from going to jobs because they see the opportunity of creating something. Yeah so the problem becomes do they have the To kit today. Have the set of skills to develop that business or that idea to frisch a different question. So you you're a bunch of little bits and those things have to come together to make sense andrey yeah. I think i think we run the danger. You hit the nail. I mean there are a lot of people that don't want to be a business entrepreneur. That doesn't mean they're not leader. They may have leadership and other areas and of course it's not a requirement to be a member of society. You need to be a leader or an entrepreneur but just as you said what what's happened in nigerians because they're the opportunities for formal employment or limited big companies or even medium size is so is so low. The opportunities are not. There aren't enough of those people are into entrepeneurship when they shouldn't have to be there so we'll get into. Who should be an entrepreneur. What they should be doing but it is a difficult thing. And sometimes i've i've said publicly That we shouldn't we shouldn't be talking so much about entrepreneurship. We should be talking more about bill. Drink large companies that create structures that create employment that build ecosystems around and then of course there are also going to entrepreneurs around the too but these large companies are also a place where people Gain a lot of skills. They gain a lot of contacts officers later. If they want to. So i do think you hit the nail on the head i think. Sometimes we actually talk about entrepreneurship too much fantastic and you know when you talk about you know. Instead of talking about entrepreneurship so can about large corporates am going to refer to the msnbc survey report for two thousand eight hundred thirty that you were part of. It was done by wc and some of the insights from that surveys. That you know. Micro-businesses are the largest segments at about ninety two percent and only seven percent responsible for exports. So when i saw that. I thought okay micro-businesses at the tiny business is that everybody has the moment shops cetera. That you know. Have less than i think about five million in terms of assets. And if we're talking about how you know. Entrepreneurship is huge. And it's just a bunch of all these businesses. How do we realistically get them to great skill to the kind of large corporates or are they going to always remain micro-businesses and is that what is necessary for the economy. Well let me just. Because that's our report all started. I guess the people that are doing the microbusinesses are those micro-businesses really honest are likely to grow. I mean they're not technology lifer businesses. They don't scale. Hopefully they can feed your family and do that but we should expect them to scale. But what would happen. I in our view if you had more organized formal sector developed a more and you had more bigger businesses. I mean they just take the obvious example. A company like dan cody not only crates. Mr dan goldie tens of thousands of jobs hundreds of thousands of jobs as an existing companies in companies but they create all spin off effects all the suppliers. All off takers of it in many cases are also getting to be at least medium size and then of course there are smaller. Businesses are also part of the ecosystem. So we want to have a lot of big big champion. Big champions there are that also creates more opportunities for entrepreneurs that are trying to do innovation and if you look in for example the financial sector when we talk about these intex the customers for the fintechs normally the customers of the big banks. So you need to have the big banks in place to create the opposite for the for the fintech so i really think it needs some ecosystem thinking about it. But we shouldn't be upset if micro-entrepreneurs growth doing fine and delivery but if they want to be the formal economy. Earning more of a salary you know we should also create an economy that gives them that opportunity if that's what they're fantastic. Okay i'm gonna go to the world and this ties right into the question. I was going to ask the chapter in his book that he roots with her care where he talks about the sme's been the backbone of the economy but in africa they tend to be the ground that big corporations walk on. So you know to your point andrew where you just talked about. How the the big corporates suppos-ably wounds creating this opportunities sort of down that value chain as world and took care of have different experiences. And so as we'll talk to that between your book where you see you know the logical corporates to be the ground that corporate woken. Yes so if you look at andrew. Just not into the picture that i actually loved. Ideally the where. We have a lot of a lot of more additional corporates. Right saying is there. One dangled his fifty beaten. Give me one hundred jerks people wish you. Have you know a thousand than what tends to happen is there's a there's a bit of a monopolistic approach to how some of these businesses to set up. There's a bit over reliance and you know it's almost like there's a false sense of limited resources in a country that is so rich with resources that leads to a very approach where the big corporates don't really Overly into ecosystem development as was painted by by andrew if they were into ecosystem. Developments is eco-system leakages right so there were to corrupt in manger and can do the job but it gets sent off somewhere else and this company that could do it never grows. So it's not really a sense of micro companies groin lily. Micro-companies goal was being micro shop. You do consultancy on something very very very you know. Small and tiny Task is operatives provided service naked. Feed your family but a lot of middle companies little small to medium sized companies that are building something that actually can grow to be. A dangle t nigeria. Yeah but they don't get they don't get the oxygen right on the passive side on the active side. There's actually a very bad sense of Triple seat in cash conversion cycles his little money management payment management with payments from government. And you know big corporates. That actually does a lot of damage to small. Companies rice when companies have a cast cycle and a management as little shorter. The you know the ten go along time without being paid the money owed them. And then while you're waiting if your money owed to them the ground shifts from under the un the rates you'll five hundred million naira and then so did different things that you know the most. Come find me. The that bigger companies tend to treats the smaller companies very bad and the acquisition of against boats. Then being the only one and that's going to be for a while. Well andrew you just had us world so hearing from the intrepid. I know right conditions you know. It's a little bit like they used to say about the english football team. It wasn't a losing to kill you the hope right. We don't say it anymore because doing a bit better which is great to see but the thing about being an entrepreneur. And i've been there. I mean i i the only reason. I'm in nigeria entrepreneur in china and lost everything and all my friends and had to leave the country right so so i i know how painful it is and So i know so many entrepreneurs who trying so hard and every time. They look like they're going to make a breakthrough something else. Half gesture challenge some extra cost the custom doing something tax Holding them up about that something that they are trying to add value to the him put his hind qualities shouldn't have had it son cap and so the resilience of the nigerian entrepreneurs is legendary. But what happens. Is this chip away at the value. Right i mean we're not growing enough medium sized companies which would become larger ones and quite frankly in this environment oswald hit it exactly right the an i don't want be negative. These bigger companies to come in the sense predatory national because all of these cut of medium size companies down to the micro companies. That's what happens in this specific issue about Payments i mean. We put a paper about about this as well about the concept of factoring because he's just kill killing you if you are a smaller company and then someone owes you money. So who's got the money not on any one day. Cody lafarge uh-huh bank owes you. They know you forgot days right. So then the just has a ripple impact business. Hopefully you muscle profusely reduces it reduces the velocity of money which harms the whole economy in a big way so it's very difficult to environment and yet despite that i mean we all know so many people that tried to do amazing things either making things that are just trying to do not necessarily innovation and other ones. I do absolutely new things in a hostile environment. So that's you know people. Sometimes you know i ask what what what keeps me going every day because i have probably one of the worst jobs in the country right being economic voice there's loose but but what keeps me going to seeing this energy and just just at least a little bit more of it and just be phenomenal. It's not easy. All the energy needs channel and support it. Right is a little energy. We have all the components that make it. Fantastic young people right. We have resource extra resources yet but it just not challenged probably not structured of these and they opportunity they're not structured properly to allow people to the resources to them end up getting the feeling that they can only be one of this kind of company right. But the transmitter that zero and what he's selling it's all over the country resources everywhere. He added interesting. Well you know. It's very interesting that both of you i mean. So as was their junior. You're obviously echoing sentiments andrew. And with the book that he's like oh. This sounds very familiar. But we we talk about this solutions and we talk about what should be. How can we make it a reality. So that we don't just keep talking about this is this. Is there any chance they can be reality. So we've just as well you said that you know we have the resources and everybody agrees. So how do we actually make this a reality. Who's gonna go who well to be honest. I mean i've been saying this last. i'm more optimistic. Moved here in two thousand twelve started really living here in twenty two thousand eight more optimistic and the reason florida away is. We don't have any choice right. I mean if you look at what's happened in the covid situations really kind of created a moment of truth for nigeria. But i've seen a number of over the last five years. That are very powerful. Let me just name a couple of them. I mean there are certainly people in the federal government who want to do the right thing. Recognize this on. Dr jim okay at a one day. I dance minister I think the a engineer who shar privatizations but even more importantly than that. I think the states have figured out state governors. Many of them have figured out that. Actually if they don't make it happen as their state the federal aviation is simply too small. There's two hundred million nigerians eight hundred million barrels of oil a year half ago. See i see so you got to barrels per per per per person you get your share of the state. It's so so it's not a cake economy on a cookie economy. It's not a. It's a konami right so now. The conundrum governors have figured out. They need to make an happening. You could really see that energy the past three or four years which was not discussed five or seven years ago. i had an event last week With one of the governors who. I won't name here but not from a state you would expect. Just fantastic. Event was about privatization. he said. Look these are the assets that we have the dead assets we have. We want to turn you need entrepreneurs. Obviously they need people not small people have money in this case. Really starting to recognize that They are responsible to help their states developed. So i'm optimistic on a lot. More things happening local of it. As i said it's a country of two hundred million people in eight hundred million people. I mean there's more than enough opportunity for for for everyone to build huge amounts of of white space. So i'm not getting pessimistic. Optimistic that you are you optimistic Yeah so i've been doing business in nigeria for about Fourteen years now. And and if you will process jimmy person you just like solving problems. Nothing figure out you know. What's the only routes out of this and i can tell you for the only route out of this is for young enterpreneurs to get more political really is simply the only way so basically you look at look at government as the train track builder laser cracks for you. Run your idea. Which is your train over in fact train you ever one. Yeah retracts ain't there. You ain't run it. Sure is critical to some of us. Go and go help with the strikes together right. So i think. I think if you look at the policy Structure and and matter of fact you know andrew just named the number of names enough winning ten in the more. We need a large earth. But i think we need more people that kind of mindset in government happens we're going to be circumcision because you need critical mass enough and then enough. So do you think it's a problem of critical mass and my friend Prior to the show had asked the question about we have amazing policies. We you know. We have amazing initiatives planned by the government on paper but then we just never really see it. Come to fruition like it's just so he's he had executed poorly executed or it's just not enough so speaking critical mass. You know what ways that is fantastic. Ideas just do seem to translate into the value. I would like to see because you need more people to drive. Okay okay so. I'll go back to andrew and to address the topic of today and Bring to interview so the the survey reports talks about You know the nigerian msn as being key contributors to gdp an accounting nights six percent of the total number of businesses in the country. And and the questions you. Andrew is in light of the current economic situation. What does diversification. Look like for nigeria. And how does entrepreneurship liberal in terms of diversification. I mean people sometimes ask You know which sectors and also also actress had there is so much white space in in in nigeria to put this in context. I mean i. I went to China the first time in nineteen eighty-three lived there for for ten years from nineteen ninety eight And of course we all understand Lifting six hundred million people out of poverty. What people understand eight. Nineteen eighty-three there was not a single private vehicle. Not not one private car. In the country of eight hundred million people and by two thousand eight it was the biggest market and the biggest producer of cars twenty five years. So we're the sense in that same space so everything is open to be developed. Whether it's power infrastructure dollywood supply chain manufacturing education healthcare. So it's all open to there and of course we've also stressed Stressed Real estate as a critical area to to to to develop. So i mean. I the entrepreneur. There's there's so much so much to do but again a lot of this has to happen so many. It is a very very difficult to build a national business and so much has to happen at the state and local levels you can build a big business in a state of three million people. Many big businesses on that and some of them will together make national businesses. And that's why said it's critical that we kinda get the state level state level development All on and I said i think we're starting to see some of that But i mean the the scale of entrepreneurs this thing is. there's so much supply of entrepreneurship. You go back to this question why it's not happening and we said this is the time if you look at the in. I don't see much negative anymore. No point in giving more bad news if you look at the economic recovery in growth plan. The it's the complexity so many separate programs and you can just you know what is built. A business would realize building a national scale infrastructure for something is takes a decade. So for somebody you know ten twenty programs. Anchor borrowers Trader money Sme intervention on the electricity to prevention. Front of this stuff is not going to happen at the national. Even something like electrically canadian originally candidate. I don't think we have a national crissy's regularly we would just simply say to the provinces sorted out. They've also allows if you want to trade our you trade it. We're we're we. Don't use the word restructuring because of its political connotations but just from getting the economy to move given the entrepreneurial talent that we have out there given the scale of the country given the diversity of assets everywhere the diversity of cultural backgrounds it has to happen at the local level. And so we've been saying. Let's the federal to the federal government said publicly. Let's just do less what's happening right now. Is even if the government got to neutral. This company country would bloom bright. It's just the reason we're not booming because the government is not neutral his a active drag. What's happening in the country All you have to do is get to noosa. Please stop trying to do so. Many things and just let the entrepreneurial spirit in one of the things i've said in other settings i went a little viral. I said i think. Nigeria is the easiest country in the world to manage the manage itself nigerian self organized so just let that power of self organizing on these and in country will be absolutely defense acid as a key agreed the. Niger is easy to manage and self organized three nosy. Look after long along where it's actually the government the got in the way of something good right so something was about to happen. It was the government and the government. Sometimes we tend to forget that it's not always the government is personalities. That's correct right. So that's what that's what we don't. We tend to miss the differentiating factor. I mean one of the things that you know the generally border. This is america's first time with where actually seen a real personality yet how the fees ran only just of a president and the new government in niger. We kind of have that same thing that every level where their personalities potentially affect what you're trying to do that's right the gate either the kids. I've ever tried to walk into nbc. Okay it's interesting you told your name is not in the database and your name is in the date of you who have to in control of. That's okay next question and also listens for you So forty six percents of the business surveyed in the Pw cms several reports pointed to private equity as the type of funding. They would meet the most to scale up and this Apparently elaine's with wbz's twenty eight thousand family business survey with at nine percent of family business owners revealed that build consider investments. Now you in the chapter about the three hundred missing pages. You make reference to the unwillingness of investors to fund startups of young smart people. Can you shed light on this. Your sydney i mean. I'll start from the point where i don't always think money is. What load is companies needs means so in the beginning of the clean access the finance this companies. Don't have that you don't have finance problem sometimes. Mean that the right many things you mentioned earlier about the lack of access to some work that it can do so for instance. My company's fourteen years old and we've never taken any finance and if if we had this kind of projects that we deserved will be no further down the line that the proline that we all right so i think the number of things that that make coming before starting companies do need finance. Just how you run the company. What experience do you have anything. That's really kinda struggling is another spinach for neuro because you have the experiences by working for somebody else. So are you now going into this venture and somehow you thinks we should invest in your company question question mark though you know. Andrew sits with somebody who's not qualified to do what he's doing. He's not going to put his mind. That right i sit on was who doesn't yeah so you see a lot of that yet but it on back. The context don't lack the ability or capacity capacity actual to actually do the on the solution they're talking about the un invested in that then to answer the question directly about what was said in. The book is also the fact that you know you. You have that problem you see it. Yeah why would you money in there and also you are also in in a in a stage where you're you're you know you are also pressing with the money also operating environment where you on certain on this thing we know about yourself. You're not you're not. You're not certain so very difficult. Now say i'm gonna take this cash and putting something else that i'm also w on about asset my control so that delays the investments the investment aspect but. I do think that you know if you were to list are ten conferences. These guys any money. I think you eat you work on. How the company's managed to some extent you find the money's nice active problem may access to projects or better management better management. Same interesting. okay here you and it's interesting that you talk about this in terms of you know The capacity of the people running the business. And you know what prior experience to the have and we also talked about. How entrepreneurship is like a plan. B for a lot of young nigerians. Who haven't gotten a job. So how then do i get that experience. Because i've not my country hasn't given the opportunity to give their experience. But i must have i so i started this. I have this breaks idea I mean not have the. I don't have a capacity people. Maybe i'm open to learning. But then i just need someone to believe in me you know. So how how do we then clues that gap. Because i don't have the. Maybe if i had the opportunity out have worked and gained the experience that would make you have some trust in me then in the book you also talked about Tribal lanes so people would invest in people that the from the same tribe. No i i think i think Stunned you said the will the willingness to learn. So you've hired in nigeria nigeria. We understand the gaps that that exists. I think anybody who in that environment. Who's truly women to fill those gaps in has purchase. I mean he's a different time. I mean you know we used to have to go to a larry to gain knowledge. Now you can gain the your phone tap truly do those gaps in and are true to yourself and realistic out. What you're trying to learn self. It's right south develop. What tends to happen and try to invest in startups in over the last few years. Low things i find is you know i wanna be And they want to be soccer with the entire complete thing. Oh i started this idea in my garage but we don't have garages nature. We i did but toe moose is ready. There was early gates with his children. So you start. That's part of the idea that three hundred missing pages in the sense that. Put yourself in pages that you truly belong right right so whatever you read and adapted to our local environments right and then learn and you can truly gain capacity what we tend to see and while oh put on invest is that you have people who are most mimicking. You're mimicking what you'd think he'd should be as opposed to what you should be a difference right. You ever see somebody dance as this kind of source somebody down as opposed to actually learn the steps So you'll find a little mimic it. You know and understand the true story. Bob's had reached out and he wasn't offered you know the guy who did you know you went his parents and say i want to do this. I did it knows. Investment back knew. I wanted to get him money. So there that backup you. Don't have that background just kind of stepped into the roof to help. Develop your pap properly. Fantastic andrew do you have any views on that. Well i think i mean you know. Use the young entrepreneurs. I mean who never made me work informal settings. Their energy level is fantastic. One thing they don't really understand is the is the risk and they don't understand that i deal with her and fintech space because that's my own clients that pws's they don't quite understand they don't they don't know what you don't know sitting outside so there's a pattern and what happens. Is you know. Because there are support programs for young take fantastic's elemental foundation others. That are trying to help. Give bridge and education gaming. They recognized people so so they get some support from that People are encouraging them but often at the end of the day most of these fail some will succeed. Some fail is a good or a bad thing. i'm not. I'm not really sure but But know i still going back to the point that also make at the beginning and we discussed this would be if you think of actually most stories like bill gates stored like mark zuckerberg rare. That's why they are known globally right host. Let's call the most Let's say in. Us dollar terms Eight digit company. So someone that starts company and eventually makes at least ten million dollars out of the company over the years fifteen twenty years because most of the companies are actually like that. They're not these five year wonders more. The people that start that you look at the statistics actually came from the industry. So they've been in the industry for over a decade. You know twenty five to thirty five they see in the in your when they go to build whatever products going to serve that date or stitch together the new business concepts the act on industry. They know what they're doing. So but we because of our unique environment are kind of seeing that That segment and the young people are kind of forced because of that and and the hype sometimes takes two minute so we need to break a little bit. That that's like we need more formal employment. There's nothing wrong. I started my own career mckenzie. I used today. I learned i two or three years. Very very structured sort of environmental so. We need to find that balance with with the on the other hand. I totally understand why mr l. melo would support the support entrepreneurs that way because there isn't a lot of others or so ways he's filling a gap shouldn't be correct correct and you're right because you know the question. I was going to ask. Maybe we need more of the tunnel lulus because the reality is there is unemployment. People don't have jobs so we don't have that pacini surly and so we do need interventions. That would fill that gap and see if we have more of because. That's the reality we have. You know people just have to sort of get those skills and then if we really want to enjoy the benefits of the entrepreneurial landscape that we keep boasting off okay andrew. I've often heard you talk about This i never had you see this that human welfare over. Gdp is what matters and linear economics. Works boy it's not sustainable me just more than this. Well i think we've kind of grown up in a world news. The developed western whatever terms people want to use here world where where we have. Gdp lands right so we haven't weighed increase gdp to to the country being better off and it's understandable. Why we that. Because if we look historically sixty seventies for maybe it's the mid eighties. The relationships say in the united states between gdp and wellbeing was actually quite close. Yeah so like why. Why would you care about gdp. Because presumably if he's going up people are better off. If at the end of the day we don't care about gdp we care about people so it was a good proxy. The problem is that the relationship after the mid eighties in many countries western countries between gdp and welfare. And throw them down and can give you many examples. Simple one In canada we have quite a bit lower. Gdp than the united states but we have a life expectancy of eighty two in the united states. They have the higher gdp and they have a life expectancy of seventy eight. Are you would think that would be an urgent issue. Not mentioned the fact that people die states does not mentioned on the campaign trail but even within our context The the there is a strong move and of course in late. We have sent task leader of this habit is the buys and his excellency governor saying all on. Sdg's you brilliant young nigerian. Who's really pushing this. We have the same issue here. So for example the gdp per capita in lagos his route. To say or nigeria. A hole about the same as india but life expectancy ghosts fifty five life expectancy in india's sixty nine the ability to turn. Gdp into human welfare is vastly different. So we'd been among the groups that have said let's look at how well we're doing to an estimate jalen then she'll app is amazing draws. We're gonna hear more and more about this than i can see five years interesting so the reason i ask about. That is so looking entrepreneurship. And you know what it contributes to gdp. What is what does that mean for for the will of entrepreneurship in you know. Growing the economy is focusing on human welfare. One word of the will jumping. I get you know most entrepreneurs if not all that. I talked to nigeria already. Broadly they wanna do the decreased employment poverty. It helps the environment doing. That's already hardwired. Millennials so millennials are going to push on a the next millennium. I am millennial. And that's what we're doing. That's why they're social contracts with nasa. Okay that's all. Did you have anything to contribute to. What andrew said. Okay all right. I'll just come so question for you. As walt and so festival in the book talk about not staff building businesses that last and for me just about building businesses the last time they select though because the select the right business structure their businesses and shoes board members and partners wisely for me very few business sees outlived their found. Founders in nigeria. So do you think we have enough not status or are they. Not as in nigeria. Well i would say we have. You have to pick your status. Because everybody's unique right. You have to pick the people who helps guide you to to what you define as your success. Okay right so is really based on. Your definition is not something that i can sit in answer for the mass of nigerians based on what you believe is your idea of morals idea of success. You see yourself like. I took all the time. My success is win a pair of shorts on a wednesday afternoon. What bypass and resolve wave at him. That's my ideal success right wednesday. It's you know it's it's su- pm. And i'm sure for lunch. People now have shorts and a pair of glasses on So that may not be yours you you may want be somewhere else so not start generally people who you put in your constellation that you look to ensure in oh baby in the crib in a baby mobile looking up and you see the toys hanging down. You know you kind of if you bought one. Is this a piece hanging. You don't think you should have in front of your child. You're going to remove it and replace it with something else is exempt six. Which will conventional thought you were there queen. Fill at this very given moment. You know help you set a charter course to wait till you want to be. And the he replaced the appearance to be a. Fred could be andrew. Anybody who you feel You know helps this constellation of of of this charting your path where you wanna be anybody you could be with somebody who we think is despicable and there's something about them that you that you think you want to learn so this is for you to You termine okay a your nostrils like mentors or just people who feel that they could be mentor right. It could be mentos but ultimately we don't want to That mental relationship tends to get back a bit demento issues chewing streak right so is really a give and take relationship is built before you can have a trusted mentor relationship right right so some of these people. You don't really have to be Mental who you read about and you keep it in about and you kind of follow the korean for the from thousands of miles away and you you learn you want thing a how delta particular transaction is interesting to you and you you put that one of these you wanna you want to replicate antastic. I okay andrew. I have a question for you. And here's a question that a friend of mine wanted me to ask you. And so is she's asking. How can we get the government to support local content and manufacturing especially in view of the Afc ta well. I think that. I mean everyone wants to. Local manufacturing is not like the businesses to import things. Importing is not suitable so if there was any choice i mean they're desperate. I mean i know the large companies. That aren't familiar with the desperate to source as much locally. Made it difficult with with all the things we know all about in terms of infrastructure and and Cost of energy etc. If we saw some of those issues we'll get more more local local content. Now one one thing. Though that i sort of said and actually i think is increasingly recognized. This if we're honest with with where the country at we take exports per minute. It's easier to exports non-physical goods like if you think about all the challenges of us exports Manufacture we export them. Europe is shrinking. Are we gonna export the india. It's not easy. China certainly not easy. So where do we export them. The only places that ultimately africa but but then whereas if we export services particularly outsourced services and della google has a bigger thing Goebel outsource global lemar hoskins. So i think that the path that's going to happen for us as we're gonna fi and this is not we're not unique so if you go back to indian the nineties yeah they had a lot of the same they really starting to boom but what really led to bloom was things that didn't have to be physically claiming they were they were culture and of course cultural products we have the knowledge would products are the music among lead. I think increase if people are going to recognize that as as as we become more prosperous from that yeah the infrastructural improve and will all all start manufacturing get to use the example they manufactured very little in the eighty at the big outsourcing companies. The big software of now they're also sorts of manufacturing. But i think it's hard to lead with that content but to the extent that we can get some power infrastructure. Local manufacturers are desperate to be able to use local contested as well. Yeah i think. Ppo is the way to go. I mean definitely outsource in likely described it earlier. Hundred billion people. Sixty percents is under twenty five very intelligence. You know citizenry I think when the right circumstances we could definitely have lost all sorts all types of services programming services you know to the world yeah I think that's definitely a good place to start. Okay i can as well as one question for you you know. We only have a few more minutes to go. Sang is going to have one more question for you now. Have you have your Clues in lanes so in the book you talk about apprenticeships and it was one of the oldest models for mentorship which across nations and cultures amongst the jews and lebanese for me. I knew the jews and lebanese huge business ventures. And all of that and in nigeria. This is practiced among the issues. Andrew let me talk to you quickly so my last question to andrew is just to get your views on nature as revenue sources and drivers can immune what areas. Do you think that we should focus on to achieve better david kitchen. I think you actually talked about. This is a question that came in. Yeah no so. I think that I from the government perspective in terms of revenue and also from from driving employment and and really making nigeria better. We've always did the housing sector. The housing sector number. One and events need to get organized in the status of land that they received fees they receive for building of those but beyond that i said every every sector needs to be needs to be needs to be growing and the government needs to think about how to attract people into the formal sector. Is we still have fifty percent of the economy in the informal sector and the problem in the informal sector. It's better than nothing Again it's the second of a plan. B and we want more businesses to be attracted into the formal sector so both of those things land registry issue. The housing stock the building of houses. Yeah really drives the economy but also bringing more businesses who want to be in the formal sector and the government really needs to think through how to do that fantastic. Thank you very much andrew. Not sure i think will and having some connected with the issues. But it's almost time to round up and i would say i've had an extremely excitable conversation with you both times so quickly. 'cause so many other questions that have loved to ask but i thank you for your time and yes there any last fewer you want to share with the audience before we close. Just one minute andrew. Yeah so i said before. I was very optimistic. So let me repeat that. I think it's a privilege for me to be part of it because if you think about some of the things that we think work well in other places and using examples. These things took century or millennium to develop a western world. I mean from the fall of role for the end of the second world war one six sixteen sixteen hundred years right so and yet. I'm witnessing just incredible. Changes in a decade. So i think in some ways when the country is phenomenal in that. And i don't think we should be costs of the criticizing ourselves. We should be recognizing how things are changing. How much potential there is to go forward. I mean even having this conversation the role of young people the end sars for young people. You at how much that's moved through the year. So please everyone do. Your part to make nigeria. We all know and be and be optimistic about it and get up every day and realize you're making a huge difference to to to what is going to be the second largest population country in the planet by the end of the century antastic. That's a very optimistic note. And thank you very much andrew and to my listeners for me. The closing remarks is entrepreneurship in nigeria. Indeed seems to be the hope for the future but he requires the concept that effort from all access to make the most of its including yourself. We have come to the end of the discussions around entrepreneurship in africa. This month of november. I'm looking forward to another exciting theme. For the month of december police chaining same time. Same station next week to find out what we have coming up. I am us conscientiously. Africa is rising. They say aw but africa must rise with people. The is no africa with rights people. How then do we harness. Africa's wealthy and development social conscience with nasa coming to aspiration six of the africa. Twenty six three and the global development goal. We advocate social change and transformation africa. Join us every six thirty pm. gm flow. We are the wind in the sales of your business. We are your compass charts your course towards your targets. Africa business radio to it. Ah profitable africa.
Wonder Media Network signs with WME
"The latest from our newsletter part news dot net. Welcome to the New York Times Company Second Quarter Two thousand twenty earnings conference call. On the call today, we have married. It's cope it Levian executive vice president and chief. Operating Officer last. We acquired cereal production. We've also entered into an ongoing. Strategic Alliance with American light among other things will tell the American life podcast advertising. Next year New York Times CEO in waiting meredith cockpit. Hitlerian with the news of the company is to sell ads within this American lives podcast from next year. She also said that the daily has an average of three and a half million daily listeners few more than this podcast. The female founded and led podcast network. Wonder Media Network has signed with talent agency, w. m. e. to help the network expanded into books and television w emmy already represent pyrex rusty quill crooked media and Malcolm glad well answer Elton John. Lipton's CEO Chris Spencer has resigned. It worked at Lipson for fifteen years and we'll stay on as a senior advisor to the company. Last year bonus payments to spend. So was cited as one reason for a revolt by minority shareholders the settlements last October installed a number of new board members who's been publicly critical of the company and none of those are quoted in lip since release. Google. Play Music's podcast portal will no longer accepts new podcasts quote in the next few weeks according to an email from the company they'll be removing it entirely later in the year, you should be using Google podcasts manager instead the podcast academy holding August social a weak today via zoom, of course, meanwhile, new research into share of audio listening in Australia will be unveiled on August twenty sixth you'll find links. To both of those Paul's dot events and expanding yet further specify a hiring for a head of audio books. Is there anything that company won't touch a thank you to the podcast engineer for becoming our latest supporter based in Atlanta in Georgia the podcast engineer does podcast editing mixing and production so you can treat your listeners to quality audio you should be like them at hot news dot net slash support. And Impalas News Memory Lane with Kerry God limo interviews, different guest every week like Romesh Ranga Nathan Jo brand and. A Kosta talking about their five favorite photographs one. If you use the entail APP, you get to see the photographs as well. Also interactive with the tail APP is making the cuts with Davina McCall Michael Douglas. Not. That Michael Douglas presumably it's a podcast like trip advisor feel life apparently and just a little prick podcast with Pete Wiggs, it's all about two twos obviously and scientists using world of warcraft to learn how to fight covid nineteen that's according to wild wild tech which launched. Yes. Today these are the stories about your favorite tech companies that are seldom told they promise and that's the latest newsletter subscribe at Pod News Dot Net.
The Best of Tall Stories 2018
"Hello. I'm Andrew talkin. You're listening to the oven est or monocle twenty four. Now, we've decided to kick off the new year with the very best from twenty eighteen hardly any visitor will go more than a few hours without desperately seeking a moment of quiet inside one of the city's Rondi retreats. We take a look back at the best tool stories from the year gone by including thriving garden in the middle of the desert and a former government building in Oslo with the Picasso on its facade all that much more in the next thirty minutes with me, Andrew talk. Stay tuned. We started out to through some of the best horror stories of the past year and Morocco during spring Monaco's Kiara Ramallah took us to Marrakech to reveal the secret behind his plant filled courtyards, and as we found out the city in the middle of the desert could become a haven for gardens such as the peaceful Jadan secret. The road from Mara cash to the atlas mountains is about fifty kilometers long. It's an hour's drive more or less and one that zooms only straight through a rosy. Rocky doesn't seen from any of the city's flat rooftops. These mighty mountains may will look like a Mirage with this snowy tips, they seemingly belong continents away from the baking heat of the Medina yet. They stand proudly close enough to provide more than just an escape from unbearably sunny days. What the atlas have given our cash easy access do for the last millennium is far more important resource water without the city would not be very different from the baron land, which surrounds it. But inside it's courtyards and within its palaces walls, Marrakesh, hides palms plants and flowers that stubbornly defy the dry terrain. Marrakesh is gardens defined as city just as much as it's maze. Like roads. Hardly any visitor will go more than a few hours without desperately seeking a moment of quiet inside one of the city's from the retreats outside people scooters children bikes constantly rush through stalls Laden with pomegranates bread and all manner of vegetables, they whiz spas, shopfronts covered in plates teapots interest dot but inside the gardens the noise stops not much of them. The Russell of the wind and the soft pouring fountain. This stubs a sit down in the shade of a party. It was only because of the productivity of the atlas mountains that the imperial Amara. Vid dynasty decided to bring a system of irradiation Tamara cash the first kit thera, a network of underground tunnels and wells was built in eleven o seven to transport water from the aquifers on the Neath the mountains all the way to the city's only garden residents where ecstatic the water they said gave the city an air of sparkling brilliance mortgage. Fires were added Mogens planted an atmosphere of sophistication spread through the city. The system eventually grew to feed the city's mosques public hamams and fountains but for centuries having water flow into the grounds of a private home remained, prestigious privilege, an unmistakable symbol of wealth. Only Marrakesh is richest were able to afford it families like those who would come to inhabit the grandiose palace on ROY Moore seen in a nineteenth century one of the biggest in the. Whole medina. This. Majestic Riyadh had two courtyards a ham of its own and vast during pavilion at seventeen metoo stole its tower was almost as high as some of the city's minarets, but perhaps most importantly, it had a magnificent garden its owner, the Cade allege allow OB he didn't get to enjoy it very long suspected of political intrigue. He was killed with poison t his beautiful home started passing from one powerful hand to the other until in nineteen thirty four it stopped being looked after at all by two thousand and eight it had turned into a melancholy ruin only a few stubborn date plants still grew in its grounds. Yet. Life was not to stop flowing in these gardens that same year British landscape architecture. Tom Stuart Smith was called into rethink and restore them an eight long years later, the host finally reopened it stores with a new name the job on secret the secret garden, everything from stuccos, two tiles and walls whispery up, but the two courtyards returned the hoses deservedly central feature the so-called exotic garden was the host plants sourced anywhere from Mexico to Matt Augusta the traditional Islamic garden. Instead brought in Morocco's romantic bounty. Lavender Rosemary, fig olive and orange trees were chosen for this section. And even if the narrow channels running through these monarchial patches, no longer carry water flowing in from the atlas the system running between these basins is still the same ancient one of the buildings beginnings. If you look hard enough in some of the Riyadh's nooks and crannies you'll see. The pipes and reserve was that still ensure these plants survive in Marrakesh is boiling summers. Perhaps this is really is gotten biggest and most fascinating secret. Monaco's Kiara Malehda in Marrakesh stay with us after this is my turn to head south. Well, just south of the Thames here in London is the story of a brutal wonder built by the architect. Sudanese lassen. Why not take a wonder into the wonderful world of Monaco with an annual print subscription you'll receive ten issues of the magazine year plus are seasonal specials. The forecast and the escapist subscribes to our one year, plus and premium packages, also receive our new annual the Monaco drinking and dining directory, and that's not all age of our plans comes with a free tote bag delivered to your door. We invite all fans of the Ernest de-subscribe today and receive a special ten percent discount on any of our year long. Subscriptions, simply visit Markle dot com forward slash urban est. That's never been a better time to sign up Monaco, keeping an eye and an air on the wall. London's national theatre is perfection. In concrete is the work of the architect sedans last, and it was completed in one thousand nine hundred seventy six, but this story is about the recent fetishes ation of brutalism is not about the power of theater. Not only nor the role of the Southbank in London's cultural life. It's about light touch dark sanctuary and rare focus and perhaps an ice cream in the good. I've been going to the national for three decades and seem Shakespeare on time and numerous star turns I've mostly seen things I've loved occasionally plays have been sleeping juicing. And sometimes a play that shakes you against the sea of troubles. There's something about that theatre that no matter the quality of the production. Just makes you feel good safe and away from the world. It begins with me leaving my house or work and crossing over Waterloo bridge to reach the theater, you have to turn your back on the city cross the muddy depths of the Thames and leave at least some of the day behind. Then down some stairs. And there you are on the broad Southbank promenade where life somehow unfolds the more leisurely pace walking lock, Tom seniors or foot pumping skateboarders. Then into the nationals vast lobby where lip staining, red wine and flap jacks being consumed by a crowd. The crosses ages. Ready looks done up for night-out. Let's join them in a glass as we see the sun slink down through the epic windows. Tonight. We're seeing a play in the national theaters little space and hear those nice up hosted seats that you know. So well, there's just time to either crowd and guess at their lives when United here then phones off lights down and. Tonight is performance of network and the story of the news anchor gets angry. But there's something else. The fuck of a day is eased off like a discarded jacket people begin to laugh and move the gentle synchronicity, and you you're in a different world. Your mind finds a rare reset to clarity you are here. And in the dark all is good. In may Asia bureau chief urine Wilson to to the very heart of Tokyo to tell us the story of the Suziki Honganji or but his temple right next. What was one of the world's biggest fish markets, which is sad packed up and moved elsewhere. In the meantime, let's listen. If you were trying to picture, a traditional Japanese temple, it probably wouldn't look anything like squeegee Honganji and yet this Buddhist temple in the heart of Tokyo is rich in history. The story. Cagey Honganji starts sixty and seventeen when the head of the mother temple in Kyoto established a branch temple in Sakha in Tokyo, or does it was known them like so many buildings that first temple went up in flames in the great far of sixteen fifty seven, and when it came to rebuilding the shogun's had other plans for the site and offer the temple instead a dump plot of land on the shore which had yet to be reclaimed from the sea. The project was undertaken by the temples devoted followers and the new building which was finished in sixteen. Seventy nine was known as ski g Goebel ski g meaning reclaimed land. That area is still known as ski g and it is here that the temple still stands next to the world's biggest fish market. The main hall that was built for Honganji on the ski g site had a huge sloping roof. It was one of older does great landmarks and a beacon for shifts entering the port of Tokyo. That building was destroyed in the Great Kanto Earthquake of nineteen twenty three and was replaced in nine hundred thirty four with the current building a striking temple designed by to ITO an architecture. Professor at Tokyo University the abbot asked ITO to build something inspired by India. The birthplace of Buddhism. So today. It's catchy Honganji has all the features of a regular Japanese temple the main hall the tower the drum tower and so on but in an unusual guys borrowing motifs from South Asian temples. It has round copper covered roof granite walls. Carved elephants on the staircases and monkeys on the walls, the hybrid style continues with Lotus flowers and stained glass above the door and a German-made organ with two thousand pipes that was donated to the temple in nineteen seventy. The temple is a lively place of worship open every day from six AM, the smell of incense is unmissable. And if you drop by in the morning, you might cut your service with two dozen months chanting visitors are encouraged to take a seat sketchy Honganji is an important central. Put is learning. It's style of Buddhism is called judo Shinshu or true pure land. But is dates back to the thirteenth century today. Jodo Shinshu is one of the largest schools of Buddhism in Japan with more than ten thousand temples. Last year, a new information center and a Buddhist bookshop were added with a smart new cafe the deluge of tourists now flocking to the fish market has increased the numbers of visitors to Honganji two guests are welcomed warmly and services are held in English on the fourth Saturday of every month. A rarity in Tokyo, lunchtime organ concerts, feature everything from classical pieces to Buddhist songs and the free to all. Many visitors come out of ski station and make a bee line for the famous fish market. But if they pause for a moment, they'll discover there is another piece of Tokyo history right in front of them. If you're a regular set to multiple twenty four you'll know that we've just opened a new bureau in Los Angeles. So with that in mind, let's take you back to La Land. For this tool story proudly sitting in the downtown area of LA, the Disney concert hall is hard to miss in the shape of ships and sales the three and a half acre complex they fully at first. But it's sharp imposing stainless steel edges. But once inside the tone is change and the whole becomes warm and inviting opening doors in two thousand and three sixteen years after its initial commission we hear how the construction the console was anything, but plain sailing. Welcome to the music center and our Walt Disney concert hall. Mine. Aim is Howard Sherman. I'm the executive vice president and chief operating officer here. I also have the privilege of being the unofficial historian of the music center because I've been here for more than thirty years, and if a deep seated love this place. Villian disney. Walt's widow gave a transformative fifty million dollar cash gift to the music center in the late nineteen eighties with the understanding that this would build the fourth theater of the music center. A home for the LA philharmonic in the master chorale, which would be acoustically perfect and represent MRs Disney's love of gardens after an international search for an architect. Frank Gehry, although Canadian we like to call him are homegrown Angelino because he's lived in Los Angeles for so long won the competition and became the architect of while Disney concert hall. Thursday, April thirtieth nineteen ninety two world news this morning continues for my Schneider. More wants to get our top story. This morning comes from Los Angeles following the verdict in the four police officers who were accused in the beating of motorist Rodney King. They were found not guilty of all the charges. Newsroom there has been a major earthquake in southern California. We are getting reports of locks of bama's to the buildings and the roadways. There are reports of live spread power outages. Gas leaks and land flock petition was one Frank design the building and then in the nineties we had the earthquake. We have thrived after the Rodney King verdict and the city sort of came to an economic halt the county of Los Angeles had committed to and completed the garage on which Walt Disney concert hall would be built and then everything stopped because fundraising needed to happen. Although the Disney gift was incredibly generous and Balare gift of its kind of the time between escalation time moving forward and the brilliance of Frank URI's design, obviously more money was going to be needed to be raised so alternately after the economic downturns subsided. A trio of three incredib-. Leaders the mayor at the time, Richard Reardon ally. Brody who's a well-known Los Angeles philanthropist, Andrew van decamp, who's chairman of the board of the music center. At the time said we have to fix this L A has to come back and the symbol of its resurrection will be the building of Walt Disney concert. Construction began we raised two hundred forty seven million dollars to complete the building of this building and Togo of two thousand three it'll heralded as an architectural success acoustically, it's been loud throughout the world is being one of the most perfect halls to perform. In fact, there are many artists who are terrified of performing in this hall because it is so acoustically perfect that it's fairly unforgiving. And if you're not at the top of your game, you'll hear that you're not at the top of your game because there is no hiding what you do in this room. Shortly after the building opened we realized that a very small portion of the building was causing reflective glare into certain areas. Ninety six percent of the building is finished with a brushed stainless. But about four percent of the building is finished with a shiny reflective stainless. And naturally, that's what was causing the problem is we did a complete study with UCLA doing a son positioning study looking at where the sun was in relation to the shiny surfaces of the concert hall over three hundred and sixty five day period. We then determined which of the panels were absolutely the most egregious causing the reflection and then worked with Frank Erie to determine a system to dole just those specific panels. It was one percent of the building like forty or fifty panels that we needed to go ahead and do a hand brushed. Treatment to we invited. The press did a whole big thing about it. And some of it is being good neighbours. We are downtown LA, and we are in what is rapidly becoming an incredibly residential area. So we want to respond to the neighborhood. And some of that was making sure that we weren't disturbing our neighbors by glare and reflection. When MRs Disney gave her gift she said she wanted to honor her husband and she wanted to things in the hall. She wanted it to be acoustically perfect and she wanted to represent her love of gardens. So to that end. Frank broad doctor Toyota from the beginning to make sure the KU sticks. Right. But he also designed gardens that are hidden throughout the building the third floor of this building has a complete exterior garden that wraps two sides of the building that when you are in you are in a complete urban oasis, you have no idea you were in the middle of downtown, Los Angeles, the designer designed the garden such that there was always something blooming. What you forget is that you are three stories up in the air and actually over all of the rehearsal spaces that are backstage at Walt Disney concert hall. I think my favorite spot in the hall is in. In the terrorist view seats, which are one flight of of the orchestra and behind the stage on stage left and stage. Right there are these idyllic little pods that are not expensive seats, and because of the acoustics of the building the sound is the same everywhere. So we're ever you sit in that room. You're gonna have the same experience. But if you sit in those terrorist few seats, you get a view of the conductor, you get a view of the audience, and you get a view of this magnificent room for creating performance and because of my unique position when it's empty. It's also the most reflective place at the attendant to sit and think and reflect the good the bad, the ugly the day the problems, and that's probably my favorite place in the building. That was how Shum and executive vice president and C O of the music center, an special thanks to Sam Impe for that report. Now is almost time for us to wrap up a grand tour of the very best tool stories of twenty teen bump before we do this time for a more is the story of a form of government building in Oslo left in limbo since the two thousand eleven terrorist attacks in no way, cool the white block twi- shape. The building's future is now out for debate with many believing it should be demolished bump this strong case in favor of his off textual value manage to the lodge mural on its facade designed by Pablo Picasso designed to Nolan Giles explains. It. On a snowy winters day last year. I find myself trudging through also city center when I saw building of such a striking nature. I was halted in my tracks a curved concrete, brutally structure some five stories high wrapped its way around a quiet corner of the city centre with a nod to the nineteen fifties built UNESCO headquarters in Paris and more than a hint of the net. Cassia style thrown into the design makes a new I was staring at this Mabo on close inspection meticulous detail of its architecture makeup became more. Parents the concrete that clambered around wooden window frames was given wolf by a rich pebble dash texture and one facade stood at giant fresco in a simple line drawn style. It was unmistakably work of all work very much inspired by Pablo Picasso, and it scaled writer into the sky. Humbled by my discovery dash to my appointment with always an architect who revealed that indeed the mural, featuring local fisherman casting the nets into the sea was Picasso's and the building itself known as why blocker or why block was formerly part of The Hague's Q of the Norwegian government, an architectural masterpiece from the nation's modernist era by Arlington Shah. But why were the windows all boarded up I asked and where the hordes of architectural. Appreciate is snapping its fine wools on the phones. And then I learned the tragic story of Vic Shas and Pasos masterpiece in two thousand eleven just one month after government consensus was reached to preserve the nineteen sixties building and its system building the hates block the Cobb attack. That marked the start of the nation's most horrific terrorist incident rip through two buildings all stored around three thirty. Friday afternoon Oslo the capital of Norway explosions from a car bomb rock several government buildings including the offices of the prime minister, killing at least seven people and injuring dozens more the bomb killed eight of the seventy seven people who amid in the bloodiest day in Norway's history since the second world will while both buildings were left, structurally, sounds security fears and the haunting memory of that day, a two of the reasons why the why block will soon meet the wrecking bowl as the Norwegian government plans to rebuild a new hedge Q on the sites, but many Oslo and far beyond fighting back for the y block. And when you dig a little deeper into its natural history. It's obvious why they're doing this. Despite those more conventionally minded seeing the building a bit of a brute, it's designed is. In fact, a true homage to the nature of Norway that pebble dash concrete. So woman in character was in fact, a material pioneered by Vic, which he called his natural concrete and features thousands of small stones gathered from the nation's streams and rivers the materials contrast against the sandblasted elements, which would designed to be used as giant campuses for stick works is so beautiful that when Picasso I saw pictures of the proposal he dashed straight out to his Gaden elated to show, his gardener. Just what could be achieved with concrete? It's a building of off at architecture and Vic she even took reference from the storied stave churches of Norway in its design. These timber is managed to be both marvelously on eight and practice. Ical inform and went costs off the architect. How long his building was going to lost? The reply was about one thousand years after all some of these stave timber churches are still standing despite being older than thousand years. But while people like Siri Hume from the society for the preservation of Norwegian, ancient monuments and other local action groups continue to raise awareness for this buildings profound design plans to destroy it Motorola heads that will be at least a considered effort to somehow preserve the giant Picasso mural from the building yet this works. Real value was in bringing both artists an architect together to create something more powerful than both of disciplines could muster individually to simply chop the mural off the building and place it somewhere else as a monument would be a disservice to both because and show today pressure mounts quickly on governments in reaction to terrorism twelve a safe solutions citizens and these decisions not always the best ones for the city. The y block can no longer be seen as a safe building. But the debate surrounding its destruction points to one of the greatest challenges of city. Planets. Those in office need to make us feel safe in all cities, but maintain urban fabrics that give us a sense of place highlight history and promote the civic pride. We all crave. That's this week's episode of the today show was produced by call us Rabelo and was edited by David Stevens and pay you out this episode of the his flatland cavalry with tool city blues. Thank you for listening to love us. The band. Go down to the bar beach, drink too. John. Always in. Down. Explore the original brilliant, hot back volume from the writers and editors behind monocle magazine, the monocle guide to cozy homes is available at a very special price exclusively for listeners to buy the book at half price just twenty pounds plus postage. Visit monocle dot com slash urban this book offer, that's monocle dot com forward slash urban est. Book of monocle keeping an eye and an air on the world.
Full Episode: Friday, December 4, 2020
"It's your last chance to give a great holiday gift and dell has big savings on alienware and xps computers with intel core processors and top brand electronics like samsung plus free shipping. Just call eight hundred buy dell. That's eight hundred buy dell from. Abc news this is perspective this week stories and why they matter. I'm cheri preston. coming up. As colin cases mount once again hope on the horizon millions of doses are going to go out before the end of this year. Everyone is getting ready to deliver this vaccine as quickly as possible but is it soon enough for healthcare workers who were struggling to keep up and worry of our nurses getting each other and what happens to indigenous people when the earth warms and the land on which they've lived for generations melts though is is breaking and they all right through with their machinery or with their dogs in into into the ocean all had on perspective some big developments on the coronavirus from infections are way up but a vaccine we're told is on its way however it's not here yet we are in humanitarian crisis with this pandemic dr john brownstein epidemiologist and abc news medical contributor as cases continue to surge across the country so to hospitalizations and deaths in a twenty four hour period this week two thousand eight hundred and seventy nine people died of covid nineteen at is the most recorded on a single day throughout the pandemic and we haven't even hit the expected surge following the thanksgiving holiday resort operation warp speed. Well we need operation speed for masking operation warp speed for testing. I'm the cdc needs to engage here to get people to understand that they need to stay at home. Cancel all non-essential gatherings and get through these next few months. The toll is clearly being felt on healthcare workers and so so many of us for now. Let's simply say that wherever you are in the country. There's a good chance you may be feeling the same stress worry anxiety and fear as you did during the pandemic release days but there is a vaccine three of them actually the one created by pfizer given the green light by british regulators this week. Abc's maggie rulli was in london when the announcement was made the uk is now the first country in the world to approve. The pfizer vaccine is that they're gonna start rolling it out in just a matter of days now in this first round about four hundred thousand people are going to get the vaccine. It was gonna go to the people that need it. The most people living in care homes as well as their caregivers were told that millions of doses are going to go out before the end of this year. Hospitals are standing by vaccination centers are getting set up. This is the fastest. A vaccine has ever gone from concept to reality and scientists stressed though that despite that speed no corners have been cut. The health secretary even offered to take the vaccine live on british television. Just approve it. He then went on to say something that i think we have all been waiting to hear. He said this is the light at the end of the tunnel is confident that by next summer it could be one that everyone could enjoy so yea britain they'll get the first doses of the most studied vaccine on the planet not to make it all about us. But what about uh us. Dr monsef slough. We use the chief science officer for operation warp speed the project designed to develop these vaccines in record time. He talked about that with us this week. It's great news. I think that an independent regulatory body that outside of the us outside of the context in which these vaccines have been developed has come to a positive decision regarding the pfizer vaccine. I would expect the fda to reach similar but of course As you know the operation is totally separated from the fda as far as judgments are concerned and things will follow the course. But i hope by the tenth or the eleventh of december pfizer. vaccines approved. Dr thomas friedman is the former head of the cdc he and numerous other public health. Officials are vouching for the safety of the shots but he also knows that some are skeptical. Which is one of the many reasons transparency. He says must be key. We do expect approval to come pretty soon. But i would also expect there to be bumps in the road in the vaccination program when you vaccinate millions of people some people get really sick after the vaccination and you don't know whether that was the vaccine or that was just coincidence so that has to be studied carefully or you're going to all sorts of wild rumors flying around. That's another place where you really need. Transparency there may be production problems. They may be rumors. There may be people who don't want to take it even if you do have the vaccine. So this is probably the single most complicated vaccination program in american history this past week our own chief. Medical correspondent. Dr jennifer ashton was supposed to hold an instagram live event with the head of the fda on the rollout of the covid vaccine but the fda had technical difficulties who couldn't join so abc news. Not wanting to squander. The time had dr jen take questions from her thousands of instagram followers. And those questions. Were really good thumb just as good as the ones we would have asked here for example if you've had covid nineteen should you be vaccinated so i've asked both dr anthony fauci and dr steven question if we're when really when these vaccines get fda emergency use authorization or full fda approval down the road. They go by the patient population of the clinical trials so for example if pregnant women were not studied then pregnant. Women are an off label indication or not indicated to get this vaccine the initial phase three clinical trials people were excluded from participation if they were known to have had covid nineteen years another one. Will this vaccine have to be taken every year like the flu or will it be a one and done short answer is they. Don't know let's talk about what we do know about. Sars kobe to this is an rn a vaccine. There's an ornate virus and arnie viruses mutate for a living. However as they've been looking at genetic fingerprint of this virus since last december january when it was first identified it really appears that it is mutating very very slowly. That's a good thing for the vaccine. Also remember that corona virus causes ten to thirty percent of common colds experienced worldwide. And as we all know you can get a cold one year and then get another cold either the same year or a couple of years later do people think it is possible to need other doses of this vaccine as we do with. Let's say influenza down the road. Yes but remember right now. We just don't have that time study period yet. So it's unknown finally when someone refuses to take the vaccination then what. We haven't heard anything about this yet. I can tell you as a practicing physician that goes through an informed consent process with my patients generally for surgery but sometimes for certain types of tests or treatment there is a very important ethical principle called autonomy. My job is to educate Patient as to the pros the cons the risks benefits options and alternatives. It's the patient's job to make a decision and that principle of patient autonomy is at the backbone of our medical system. It's really a legal question and a government question as to whether or not there will be legislation about this in my professional and medical opinion as a practicing physician. I will always respect a patient's decision even if it is to decline or refuse treatment or decline or refuse certain tests as long as they have been appropriately educated as to pros and cons risks versus benefits. We're very lucky to have dr john hair. She's not only our chief medical correspondent. She's also a practicing. Obgyn and she knows firsthand how hard this has been for so many doctors and nurses a recent survey of a thousand frontline. Healthcare workers found more than ninety percent of them are experiencing stress directly related to covid nineteen. Only is that a concern right now. It a lot of questions about the future of those going into the profession. abc's jim ryan reports. Her pain is palpable. Has an el paso. Icu nurse who asked not to be identified describe seeing terminally ill covid patients facetime with their families. It's just really heartbreaking to have to watch that because you feel completely helpless. There's nothing you can say. That is going to make it better. Nonprofit mental health america has tried to objectively quantify the emotions that nurse and her colleagues are feeling. We did a survey in reach more than thousand healthcare workers. May president paul. John frito ninety three percent of them reported to us that they were experiencing stress and eighty two percent were experiencing emotional exhaustion a much greater percentage than the number who were even feeling physical exhaustion along with the exhaustion says. Uc davis medical center nurse. Melissa johnson camacho the overall tension in the hospital. It's hard and then there's the fear that you or a colleague might contract corona virus and worried about nurses getting each other sick and not having enough nurses for all these patients that are coming in stress exhaustion. fear and then frustration. Has a party rages. At a home in nashville. No masks no distancing doctors and nurses in a nearby hospital struggle to save the lives of covid patients. Keep calling frontline heroes. But we don't treat them that way. Do all john frito says frustration and anger set in when doctors and nurses see people refusing to take simple precautions against corona virus infections in a. We're not doing the one thing that we can do. That would most take care of our frontline healthcare workers and that's do what we can to stay healthy. He says the lasting impact of covid nineteen might be an exodus of healthcare workers from the profession. Some people told us in her survey that they've certainly had second thoughts about whether or not this is the right profession for them and whether or not they're going to stay in the profession. We may see healthcare. Employers healthcare institutions having to change dramatically kinds of mental health supports. Emotional health supports the give to workers back in el paso where eleven hundred people have died of covid. Nineteen a nurse puts on her scrubs and heads back to the hospital. I dread going into work. Because i just know like it might not be a good day. You know depending on the day one person my code ten people my code. It's a very stressful situation. Reporting perspective jim ryan. Abc news this week. One of the top election officials in the state of georgia gabriel sterling spoke up about the rhetoric surrounding the election and threats of violence. That resulted is all gone too. Far specifically called on president trump to rein in supporters mr president. You've not condemned these actions this language. Senators you've not condemned this language or these actions. This has to stop. We need you to step up. And if you're gonna take a position of leadership show sell the president's continued to claim voter fraud in the election. Despite continued losses in court and he's targeted georgiana twitter sterling oversaw the new voting system in the state and was visibly angry while providing an update on the state's second recount. There some balls out there. We're gonna take this as the president told me to do this. Essentially you have to be responsible enough. Elections are held in georgia when no candidate wins the required majority of votes. And that's what happened this year. So on january fifth democratic candidates raphael warnock and jon ossoff are looking to unseat republican incumbents kelly laughlin and david purdue with control of the senate is the prize. If either party wins both races this has made the state a magnet for political volunteers and for fundraising to talk. More about what they're doing and how much this means to both sides. We talked about the races with abc news. Deputy political director maryalice parks. What are you foresee happening over the next month. I think it's gonna be really closed and we're all going to be focused on this republicans. These races signify unimportant. Check on on. Joe biden administration. And if you're democrats it's hard to imagine. Joe biden being able to make significant progress on nearly anything without winning these to see your biden likes to pitch himself as a consensus builder who can work across the aisle but it is a whole lot easier to get votes. Pass through congress if you control the majority in both chambers. So what are we going to look at. Is it pouring unprecedented amounts of money into the storage arrays. These are candidates that can raise record amounts of money exceeds democrats on the ground. Actually pretty worried that there might be a flood of volunteers and supporters outside interest in the state. Democrats tend to do well in georgia when the races about local issues. I think that it does pose a potential risk for democrats if this starts to become an issue about national democratic sort of big ticket items. That sort of national attention could backfire for democrats. But i think a lot of what we're going to be looking at is how exactly joe biden was able to win in the stage and whether or not the two democrats can now replicate his success. You know in some ways that you can't. It's almost represent three been simple terms coalition that repel joe biden to take the state. You have reverend warren up who in some ways represents just a strange and how or of the black vote in georgia unbelievable organizing power in the black church and a real engagement again with young black voters on a lot of these key issues around racial equity and police violence. And then you have a john Who ran his first race. He lost when he ran for the house in georgia suburbs and was able to kind of speak to women suburbanites who are frustrated with the current trouble party and so if john warner conservative play to those strength balance each other's weaknesses they might be able to replicate the success. That joe biden had that said a month ago. Joe biden the lobby or in the state that those two democrats on their own so it really remains to be a senior. They can do what you did. What did you think of what happened with one of the when the top election official came out and really railed against what he's seen when it came to republicans and the vote counting and calling them out this week. He was really emotional. And lookie saying we're the ones that actually hobby information where they're doing the work of elections and that the rhetoric has just gotten so explosive so retin-a so scary that you mean like you said he said The religious cross the line republicans are in a really tricky spot. Right now where. The president's rhetoric could backfire for them horribly. They're a big conversation early on when we saw so many senate republicans unwilling to publicly call. Joe biden the president elect and a lot of the whispering in washington was look. They're worried about georgia. They need the president to show up and campaign for them in georgia. If they're going to win those two seats which they desperately need they need the president's help and now that's looking totally backward looking like they might of sort of placing their chips in the wrong basket. Because now you have the president and his team still a month then saying that george. The voters should maybe not trust elections and suggest that elections themselves are rid and we saw some of the president's own supporters even this idea of boycotting the georgia election switching gears a little bit going to washington pardons at the white house as president. Trump leaves thoughts on what we might see. And how many of them been kinds of pardons. I think we should be prepared to cede part is. I think that the president has enjoyed this power of his. We've seen and white sort of the absolute nature being able to grant them. What a part in. I don't think that he feels Sort of worried about any of the political blowback doing it. I think that there's real talk of. Even granting pardons to members of his own family members is unveiling have been thought to be the potential suspects of charges in case if as soon as the president leaves office whether it's how some of the trump charities were water how money was raised for his inauguration and then some of the owns an inner workings of the trump business. The family could also wear the middle of or cases. I think that that is exactly the fear that the president has its lows close to have and so he might be willing to grant a pardon. But of course it's really politically risky to grant. Pardon to write a part in apart by south isn't a mission guilt. It's an acceptance of bill. You're saying you're parting someone or something. They have done wrong. Of course if the trump's family doesn't think that they've really done anything wrong or they would think that you're a potential criminal. Charges would be unfair overblown. Then you have to kind of pretzel logic until why apart would be necessary so it adds pressure to the president. Give this right. Abc deputy political director. Maryalice parks has arizona and wisconsin certified their election results this week becoming the last two of the big battleground states to do so with another seven hundred and twelve thousand americans filing for unemployment benefits last week one of the things. President-elect joe biden will have to tackle right away when he takes office in a little over. Six weeks is the battered. Us economy is now announced. He'll be heading the team working on that. Here's abc news. Chief congressional correspondent mary. Bruce president elect joe biden. Speaking directly to suffering. Americans are message to everybody struggling right now. Is this help is on the way introducing. The team that he says will rebuild the economy former fed chair. Janet yellen his pick for treasury secretary. It's essential that we move with urgency. This scope of the economic crisis is more than fifty million. Americans could go hungry this year. Nearly seven million are at risk of fiction and more than twenty million are now on employment one of them sixty year old. Diana download of san antonio texas was laid off field. Just gassed. that stinks. I wanna stay positive and think. Oh baby you know something will come but this point imploring congress to act now the full congress you come together and pass a robust package for relief. Abc's mary bruce. In washington where senate republicans and democrats appear to be moving closer to a nine hundred eight billion dollar. Partisan pandemic relief bill coming up as the world breaks more weather. Records will talk to one person who's community depends on reversing the effects of climate change. It's a matter of life and death on perspective after this. It's time to enjoy the view. Wherever the day takes you come on. Now have no fear of you. Girls are here. The biggest names unafraid to share their views. And hold nothing back. Talk about things on this. Show that people don't talk about and now. Abc's the view is available. As a podcast. With whoopi joy. Sarah sunny meghan and diana. This is going to be good. Enjoy the view podcast. Listen for free on apple podcasts. Or your favorite podcast app. Every weekday afternoon from abc news. This is perspective this week stories and why they matter. I'm cheri preston coming up a demand for more diversity. Some of america's top companies. But i the world has obliterated whether records in twenty twenty according to the un weather agency. It was one of the most extreme years ever for hurricanes wildfires heat waves floods droughts and melt president-elect by recently named john kerry climate envoys as he looks to address an issue that voters told us during the election was on their minds at top three issue. When i'm talking voters climate change even right now despite everything going on it's climate really for people living in other parts of the world like around or close to the arctic. The weather hasn't just been an inconvenience though. It's been a matter of life and deaf is highlighted in the new documentary. The last ice produced by partners at national geographic matella colic has built awareness around the waist. Climate change affects her in it community in the northern part of the world. Something i talked with her about ahead of the film's release explain to our listeners. For those who may not know what area of the world Are we talking about. How many miles is it How big is it and how many people are there so easily. We occupy in meat. No net our homeland and it stretches across four nation states in the arctic so from russia to the us across canada and up an over to greenland. And so we are. We cover the top of the world and we are over a large area of water land An ice but we are a small population of about a hundred and seventy thousand people. How long have people live there. Since the beginning of time for thousands and thousands of years and we intend to continue to live here in our homeland. Tell me what life is like there Right now right now. I am doing my grad school in nuke greenland. Even though i'm from canada. It's just the most wonderful place to be so peaceful. We have a very good balance of tradition in terms of our culture and our language and our way of life but also Modern ways as well tell me more about the culture and the way of life there. What what what is it like well. We're hunting people. So we're completely dependent on our land and the water in our environment and so We are very much Dependent on the food sources that we harvest which we have for thousands of years and Some things that we consume include whale caribou fish seal in these are all staples in our In our food source. So it's our food security. The cost of living is really really high because all of the places that we live are mostly accessible by air. Only and so we import food Which is very expensive and so We have to supplement our our main food source which is food that we hunt with. The store bought food is really costly. It sounds like i mean it's not it doesn't sound like it is people stretched across a very very vast area how bigger the villages typically with the number of people who were there. Well it varies so we have Cities Like nuke where. I'm living right now. As a student is the capital of greenland and there are about nineteen thousand people who live here. And that's like a huge city in newton imminenet and then some of the smaller communities can be from thirty or so people So it varies in terms of size. Then the name of the national geographic documentary is the last ice and it and it chronicles. What the people there are fighting against with climate change. Describe for us what it's like now and what it was you know maybe ten years ago twenty years ago and how things are changing and how quickly they're changing. The last ice is really a great fell on feature length documentary. That helps tell that story because some as you can hear in the film allocates perry who is a hunter from the northern part of greenland indicates that the ability to access traditional knowledge and ways of being in terms of hunting has changed substantially in his lifetime alone and he is a relatively young man. Because it's that quick that climate change is affecting our environment and so he indicates that there are areas that we were able to hunt before that we can no longer access due to the breakdown of the cis. Whenever we were making the film we traveled to different areas of our homeland and we heard different ways in which climate change has affected people on a day to day basis today and so there are communities that have had to evacuate because of the melting permafrost underneath the land where the homes are built. That's melting and So they've had to evacuate and change up route their entire lives and adapt to a new life in a new place. And then another places. We're losing our hunters through the sea ice because it's just changing so quickly and it is not the same anymore so it affects you know families and it affects food security because those hunters would be the ones that would be putting the food on the table. Have you seen it change. Personally just You know with your own eyes. Yes because i've attended funerals of hunters who who have died because of the the changing sea ice are cic are highway and so in order to be able to access the animals that we harvest and their migration patterns. You have to travel quite far from where we have our communities today when the sea ice is melting and it's much more unpredictable There are circumstances. Whereby if you're traveling by skidoo Which is like a snowmobile or a dog team. Which you see in the film to last ice there are areas that are no longer strong enough to sustain our people. And so what happens is they're falling through. The ice is breaking and they fall right through with their machinery or with their dogs and into the into the ocean and so There have been cases where hunters have been able to successfully come back up In onto the ice and and become saved and they lose equipment and so on and then our community members really rallied together to fundraise so that the hunter can get those things back and continue hunting. But there are many instances where unfortunately they are unable to resurface and so we had to hadam funerals without bodies and we really are the human face of climate change in this world. Do you see changing in the future. We could be doing more. And and one of the solutions put forward in the last. Ice is the Seeing through the picasso which is the north water linnea and conserving that area. So that we could be proactive. Players in ensuring that an area is protected to prevent further degradation of the sea ice as with other incoming traffic from outsiders. And the other thing is. I think that it will only get worse when there is more traffic shipping or more resource development. It is really problematic for us because we we don't want to end up in you know in the back and crying for help. And why not be proactive. And the film. Really identifies a really solid solution. Moving forward well. The film is called the last ice. It's from national geographic pristine sees and matali colic. I wanna thank you very much. This is a really fascinating topic. And i think it's something that a lot of people should see and will want to see because it's beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you as well. I really appreciated this conversation. Nonprofits that typically benefit from a year end. Push facing a real challenge this year. More americans are in need of assistance but traditional means of collecting donations are being interrupted. Abc news producer. Stephanie pawlowski has the story of one popular organization looking to continue. Its charity fundraising in a new way. This holiday season is a sound. That's familiar to the holiday season. The iconic salvation army bell ringer standing outside stores with a red kettle collecting donations for local campaigns. But with so much change this year because the pandemic will sell the army. Even have bell ringers. This year the salvation army is going to be ringing bells in every location that is available to us between now and christmas. Kenneth potter's the national commander of the salvation army. He says the decline in the number of retail spots a national coin shortage and less foot traffic. The salvation army's traditional fund raising is at risk in a normal year. Our christmas kettle campaign would raise about one hundred twenty six million dollars. Our current projection is that we will see a fifty percent decline in net figure. So we're trying to find ways by which we can find the missing sixty million dollars. In addition commissioner hotter says even more people are in need of assistance this year for things like rent food and utilities. We currently project that there will be one hundred and fifty five percent. More people coming to the salvation army for christmas assistance this year. So how does the organization cope with a fifty percent decline in donations. A one hundred fifty five percent increase in need and fewer places to donate going online. Of course rescue. Christmas dot org is the heart and soul of what we're trying to do this year and primarily. That's because that location which will be tailored to their own zip code will give them information. Not only on what the salvation army is doing there but will give them the opportunity to apply for assistance if they need help from the salvation army this year. It's going to be a one. Stop shop commissioner. Hotter says donors can also drop a digital donation at a red kettle site. They can text kettle to nine one nine nine nine to make a donation or they can donate via amazon alexa but the salvation army isn't alone this year. Deputy vice president of the marine toys for tots foundation. Kelly hardison says not as many retailers host the organizations classic white collection boxes this year and on top of that. There are fewer people shopping in person we're used to our local collection boxes being overflowing and right now. They're they have a very sparse fortune. Poison artisan says they typically distribute eighteen to nineteen million toys to seven million children in the us in our country we have about fifteen and a half million children living in poverty so we re barely half of the out there and this year toys for tots is already seeing an increase in demand. Hardison says they're also pushing for donations at toys for tots dot org and partnering with corporations. What we're doing right now. Is encouraging people to donate online and it gives the foundation the opportunity to augment or supplemental campaigns and cut needs wear typically local toys for tots campaigns have big parties to distribute the toys. But that also be possible this year. We're following the model of auto retailers. And so we're doing you know curbside curbside collection and fred site is curbside collection has also been the model. That food banks across america have been following for months during the pandemic families waiting hours in their cars to get boxes of fruits and vegetables in atlanta thousands lining up in their cars for food. Some waiting up to eighteen hours foodbank organizers. Say these long lines won't disappear anytime soon. And never they think that whatever happened and i think it would be this hall at feeding america. Executive vice president and chief operating officer katie fitzgerald says they estimate fifty million americans are considered food insecure. Just this year. We've seen demand on average across the two hundred feeding america. Food banks sit pretty steadily at about a sixty percent increase in need In the number of people who are showing up for charitable food assistance as compared to pre pandemic levels in food banks are entering the worst months in terms of food insecurity. That's because people make economic trade-offs they're you know they're going to have to pay for to heat there home medications. They're going to scrimp skimp on their food budget before they cut those kinds of things because that's what they need. Also to survive fitzgerald stresses those who find themselves in need of food should not feel shame. Life happens especially in twenty twenty. We know what the whole country has witnessed which is for reasons beyond our control in our lives. Bad things happen that disrupt our ability to pay bills and feed her family's health crisis loss job and it's not a reflection on your worthiness as human being. This is why we're here fitzgerald says feeding america's network of food banks have risen to the occasion so far but asks anyone in a position to donate to feeding america dot org reporting four perspective. I'm stephanie pulaski. Abc news new york every morning at nine thirty eastern time. The bell rings on the new york. Stock exchange the largest stock insecurities exchange in the world representing twenty eight hundred companies worth about thirty trillion dollars. The much smaller nasdaq lists about thirty. Three hundred companies with a combined worth around six billion but nasdaq made news this week by proposing that all of the company's listed on its exchange have at least one member of the board who identifies as a woman. At least one who identifies as an under represented minority or who identifies lgbtq. If they don't they'd have to publicly explain why not or they would be delisted eventually as of today only about twenty five percent of the companies currently trading on the nasdaq can meet that requirement. Nasdaq's ceo dina. Friedman tells the new york times. Even this isn't an optimal composition of aboard but it is a minimum level of diversity that they think every board should have not. Everybody agrees the conservative legal group. Judicial watch recently sued the state of california for requesting similar diversity and calls nasdaq's proposal. An allison wonderland approach the wall street journal. Opinion page asks how you'd even find out how someone was a member of a certain under represented group without breaking well established privacy laws by asking them but some are already moving in this direction goldman sachs is implemented a new policy requiring companies. It helps have at least one diverse board member of the hoping to up that to to by twenty twenty one and california as we mentioned instituting a diversity quota for public companies that are headquartered in the state. What happens next is that the securities and exchange commission will read over nasdaq's proposal then take public comments after that it will decide what the next steps should be and finally very nice pay day for this woman snow for selling a majority stake in her publishing catalog. stevie nicks has sold them. eighty percent interest in the copyright. Two songs that she's written to music publisher primary wave edge of seventeen landslide riano. They're all included. It coincides with fleetwood. Mac's dreams making the billboard. Hot one hundred in october more than forty years after it was originally a hit thanks to skateboard writing. Cranberry juice chugging band on tiktok from abc news. This has been perspective. Thanks for listening. If you wanna listen to any of our past shows you can subscribe to the prospective podcast. Give us a review. If you've got the time tell us what you like. And what you'd like to hear in the future. You can find it on apple podcasts. Spotify stitcher or wherever you listen to your podcast. You can also find perspective and other. Abc news shows at abc. News podcasts dot. Com perspective is produced by eric malo. Abc news i'm sherry preston.
COVID-19 and Domestic Equity
"Thank you welcome to the council on foreign relations social justice and foreign policy webinar series hosted by the religion and foreign policy program. I marina fuskus vice president for the national program in outreach as far as reminder. Today's webinar is on the record. And the audio video and transcript will be available on our website. See if our dot oregon on our chains podcast channel religion foreign policy as always the afar takes no institutional positions on matters of policy. We're delighted to have dr nadine grassi. A- and dr jennifer new with us to discuss covid nineteen in domestic equity. I've shared your their byles with you. So i'll just give you a few highlights. Dr jane nadine grazia is executive vice president and chief operating officer at trust for america's health where she works to develop an implement strategic policy priorities and manages their core business functions and internal operations trier to joining trust for america's health. She served in the obama administration as deputy assistant secretary for minority health at the us department of health and human services there. She directed departmental policies and programs to end health disparities in advance health equity and provided executive leadership on administration priorities including health reform and criminal justice reform. She also led the federal office of minority health where she pioneered innovative multi sector partnerships in the public and private spheres She also served as chief medical officer in the office of assistant secretary for health. Dr jennifer new new is a senior fellow for global health at the council on foreign relations. She's also senior scholar at johns hopkins center for health security and an associate professor in the department and environmental health and engineering and the department of the meow at the john hopkins bloomberg school of public health. An epidemiologist by training. Dr newses work includes global health security with a focus on pandemic preparedness outbreak detection and response health systems as you relate to health security and infectious disease diagnostics She directs the outbreak observatory. Which in partnership with frontline public health practitioners conducts operational research to improve outbreak preparedness and response. And she is also the lead at the epidemiologist for the johns hopkins. Kobe nineteen testing insights initiative house within the johns hopkins coronavirus resource center. So thank you both for being with us dr news. Oh i think i'll start with you To give us a brief overview of where The vaccine stand for covid nineteen Production logistics and the time line for getting the country vaccinated as we now have a new administration During nascent only under a week old and what you see coming down the pike earn. Thanks so much. And i'm really happy to talk about this issuing now getting a lot of questions about it. Everybody sort of wondering where they are in line and whether they should take so. Just offer my Perspectives on the issue. Wealth as an epidemiologist so sort of sending the value case of using vaccine in this context Is as well as Someone who has been working on the field of pre pandemic preparedness and seeing. No if we are to get ready for pandemics. What tools do we need. It's almost always the case that thinking about having vaccine in hand becomes a game changer. so i'm oriented to the use of vaccine through that lens Which is that. It's an incredibly important tool. And i am so very happy that we are lucky. Enough to have options to vaccinate now. I got a lot questions about the vaccine and often these questions are laced with concern impart because of perceptions that these vaccines have been developed in which seems to be unprecedentedly. Quick time a short period of time and It's partially true. But i think what we have failed to acknowledge Is that people have been working to develop a coronavirus vaccines since The first sars virus was identified in two thousand three so In recognizing that we had a new coronavirus circulating Another sars virus Cyrus koby to this virus called Scientists didn't start from scratch. they built on the. You know close to gosh. Almost twenty years worth of research That had been done before. there's a reason why we didn't have a coronavirus vaccine before now and impart that the way. Vaccines are are developed. You know the early stage research is often funded by government eh done through the nih or through academic groups They they get a vaccine to appoint and then inevitably It has to be sort of turned over to a company to do the very expensive and usually time consuming clinical trials that will allow a vaccine candidate to be developed into a authorized licensed vaccine. That's can be used in in people with the other corona viruses. It's not just the two thousand three one but there was a later one That associated with middle east respiratory syndrome A few years ago There was never a market for those vaccines The first fire has sars disappeared. and Moore's was never really one that was Contagious between people in a sustained way. And so the idea of turning over a vaccine candidate to advance. Clinical trials was just Didn't make business sense for companies that would normally Take up that You know take up that work. So i just wanted to acknowledge that all of the scientific progress has been made to date but in the context of the vaccine that we have now it is true from isolation of a new virus to the availability of authorized vaccines in under a year. That is A fast time. And there's two reasons for that speed. The one is the vaccine technology. That's being used so the vaccines that we are currently inoculating people with here in the united states are based on a new technology called. Mr vaccines basically. What it is is Genetic code that gets elected in your body can use that information to make a protein that it will present. On some of the cells surface of your cells your immune system sees that protein learns recognize. It goes after it. Tax though cells and in the process gets trained to recognize that protein The next time it should invade your body protein is what the sars virus s kobe to virus uses to infect yourselves So we've never used an mri rene vaccine This the advantage to this approach is that you can develop a candidate in really a matter of days but then so that that's a shorter period of time because once you figure out what the genetic code is for that protein than you know how you're going to make your virus What then takes time and this is true of all vaccines is to do the rigorous clinical trials that can establish. The vaccine candidate is both safe and effective and there. We have had a unfortunate benefit of speed in the sense that The reason why we were able to go through the same rigorous clinical trials and get to a authorized vaccine more quickly than we would for other vaccines is unfortunately. Because so many people have gotten infected with this virus that we were able to achieve achieve statistical significance in The clinical trials more quickly than with other diseases where you have to wait. A long time to accumulate enough people in your placebo group who got infected. So it's unfortunate benefit of the pandemic that has really gotten to you know we're looking at almost one hundred million global cases being reported sort of any either today or tomorrow but that's where That has enabled us to get to the point of the vaccines Being available now of course comes the hard part and unfortunately Well there has been a lot of effort that has gone on to On the science and to assure that the vaccine safe effective in my view much less effort has been put into figuring out how we were going to distribute vaccine in a way. That's both Fast because the sooner we get it into arms the faster. We protect people particularly Seeing that the increase transmission of the virus in recent months but also with respect to our knowledge of who is most at risk both in terms of exposure and in terms of Severe outcomes like hospitalizations and deaths and one thing that's been abundantly clear Since pretty much the start of the pandemic is that we don't all share those risks equally and so in vaccinating we must be mindful of the disparities that exist and make sure that we don't leave behind the communities who have been disproportionately affected by the virus so the biden administration has set a goal of vaccinating. A hundred doing one hundred million vaccinations in one hundred days which amounts to about vaccinations day. We're averaging about that now. I think in the coming weeks their apollo be some questions about the availability of vaccines that could affect our continued progress on that front but You know other vaccines are in development and may help alleviate. Some of the supply bottlenecks that are currently being experienced. So now i think the hard work is figuring out how we Administer these vaccines also with an eye toward speed because we don't want this virus to continue to circulate and outpace efforts to vaccinate people. We want to be able to protect as many lives as possible by using the vaccine. But we also don't want to administer vaccines in a way that it entrenches further entrenches the disparities that we've seen unfortunately some of the anecdotal reports is showing that The the coverage vaccine It has not been Achieving those equity goals. So there's just a report today that African americans are underrepresented in those who have been vaccinated to date It's both function of of access issues. And the challenge of to vaccinate people quickly there also mistrust issues that Similarly need to be addressed. And it's also the fact that most states aren't even tracking their vaccination progress with respect to these equity goals. So that will be. I think a challenge In the weeks and months ahead is to make sure we're making sufficient progress on leaving communities behind. Thank you that's a perfect psych. Wait now to dr aggressively to talk about You know the your work addressing health disparities and what you feel needs to happen in order to ensure that the covid nineteen vaccines are distributed equally. And we're not leaving Those populations behind thank you very much and good afternoon everyone. It's really a pleasure to join in. This conversation today. i you know. I'm really honored to be here. And in particular. I the in the context of religion and social justice and knowing how much you as as religious leaders and others of you had faith and civic institutions are so vital in the efforts to advance equity in the covid nineteen pandemic not only in the response but also in the in the recovery And we're certainly sitting here at time. Where in the united states where we have more than twenty five million cases of covid nineteen and more than four hundred and twenty thousand lives lost in always remembering that these are individuals and not statistics and at their countless family members and friends and neighbors more in their passing And as we're talking about here The pandemic has exposed. And it's exacerbating on what are deeply rooted structural and systemic inequities To challenges and these disparities we know existed long before the covid nineteen pandemic and while they show themselves various. Show themselves during a normal times There certainly exacerbated during emergencies and we see these not solely in health per se. But we see these. In the structural drivers of health that lead to what we see as differential power and resources in communities such as unequal social and economic and environmental conditions whether it's substandard or lack of access to affordable housing to lack of good jobs i to less access to healthy food grocers to less availability of healthcare services and poor quality schools as well as greater exposure to pollution and we often in public health full frame. This as i these social determinants of health which have such a significant influence on health. And how this has unfolded before our eyes were seeing how these conditions have put certain communities at greater risk of exposure of illness of hospitalization and of death from covid nineteen and much of that inequity really has spent generations resulting from poverty from discrimination structural racism and disinvestment in far too many communities. And when we think about the definition of health equity that it's a fair and just opportunity to be as healthy as possible We must really Then center equity in our efforts as it relates to addressing the covid nineteen pandemic and now this opportunity that we have through the cove nineteen vaccine. I'm what we're seeing a. Certainly an is dr new disguise. See that black and latino Native american native hawaiian pacific. Islander communities are experiencing disproportionately higher rates of cases and hospitalizations and deaths That american communities are facing rising rates of discrimination and prejudice They're historically underserved communities such as low income populations in rural communities as well as certain immigrant communities are encountering really significant challenges and barriers to accessing services and that groups That that typically have been largely marginalized whether that's individuals who are homeless or who and correctional facilities are experiencing really concerning outbreaks and and many others and these are just some of the many stark realities that we're facing and we know that these are not just disproportionate health impacts but that there's also certainly the economic impacts that was alluded to as well But when it comes to the moment that we're in you know it's really a. I think both conflicts but critically important tax task of covid nineteen vaccine vaccine distribution administration and ensuring that that distribution uptake or equitable for. This is really an effort. Unlike any that we've undertaken as a nation But we should bear in. Mind that As we embark on this Vaccinations and barriers to vaccinations have long existed For example among people of color both in terms of The challenges in access to as well as As was noted earlier some of the issues with regards to mistrust in government and health system which is rooted in historic maltreatment through today where there's ongoing at present day racism and discrimination and as you heard in just last week actually. The kaiser family foundation released a report showing that people of color in particular black and latino communities are seeing lower rates of vaccination and so it really raises concerns about access to the vaccine as well as ensuring that there is outreach and education to address questions and concerns that that communities have so our organization Trust for america's health we are public health policy advocacy and research organization in washington. Dc and just last month we released in partnership with the national medical association and needles. Us a report on earning and building trust in acts ended in access to nineteen vaccine and communities of color and tribal nations where we focused on recommendations for policy makers to to address access to Couve nineteen vaccine in a safe and equitable way. We had over forty groups and organizations that participated in a convenient which we got their feedback to talk about. How do we prioritize equity in particular as as a vaccine distribution and administration began and there are some key recommendations that we outlined in this report. A one is act as dr news oak described. And she she did really well takes explain the process of vaccine development because that's really important to ensure that bag communities understand the process that there's transparency and understanding how safety has been a priority in the vaccine development process that to your equipping A trusted community organizations and networks within communities of color and tribal nations to participate through the spectrum from from the planning to the education and delivery administration of of nations and ensuring that there's meaningful engagement of those trusted entities including faith-based organizations faith leaders religious leaders to be have a seat at the table and really be involved in that planning and not only that but ensuring that they have the resources and tools to do so thirdly we talked about a providing communities with the information that they need to make informed decisions and to deliver messages through trusted messengers and pathways importantly We we should recognize that all communities and families who wanna be healthy. They want to keep their families healthy and safe but need access to information that is culturally and linguistically appropriate that provides them with the services that they need and importantly as we turn to trusted messengers. It's also ensuring that there's funding that's going to those community and faith based organizations to be able to do this work to be able to do the outreach. That's needed fourth. We recommend that ensure that as easy as possible for people to be vaccinated and that vaccines actually are delivered in community settings that are trusted that are safe and accessible and the and the challenge can be having maximization sites if they're not accessible to communities especially those that are that are disproportionately impacted. Then you're not going to see the vaccination rates that you're hoping to see and so ensuring that in partnership from the federal to state local tribal and territorial levels working within communities that those types of vaccination sites are truly accessible entrusted in communities we also have a recommendation on ensuring that there is complete coverage of the costs that are associated with vaccines that are incurred by individuals as well as the administration costs that Providers have with real with regard to vaccinations because cost really cannot be a barrier With regards to Vaccination efforts And lastly i. It's that we ensure that there is funding and the resources to actually to have data that are disaggregated as you heard There there are a handful of states in which We have this. The data that are showing by race and ethnicity and other factors Who was actually being vaccinated. But we need to do much more to show to demonstrate that data to be able to actually have access to that data and that's been a long standing challenge in public health and and the surveillance systems and really shoring up the systems able to do so. Because that will then help us to know who which communities are not being reached where we need to target our efforts and ensuring that they have access to the vaccine You know what's clear through this crisis that really can't succeed It to getting to the other side of it without caring for everyone and prioritizing equity And that includes In the nineteen vaccine distribution and administration and with some of the more recent code nineteen relief. Bills that was passed in in december. There's more funding now. Getting to states and localities it's gonna take time with regards to the distribution and administration and so really working in partnership to ensure that communities are being reached as as it relates to having access to those resources for vaccinations and as was alluded to in harris administration That with this new administration and the priority on not only nineteen but on prioritizing and centering equity there really is opportunity here to ensure that we can have equity in the cobra. Nineteen pandemic response moving forward and and in the recovery as well and we all certainly have a role to play and certainly you as religious leaders. Your voice and engagement are so essential. So i look forward to the conversation. That will have This afternoon on how we can further really address some of the inequities that we see eye and how we work to advance equity not only for covid nineteen but for the health and wellbeing An economic vitality of our nation. Moving forward thank you very much. Let's go now to all of you to your questions. You can click on the raise hand at the bottom of your screen. If you're on a tablet you can click on the more button. I'm raise your hand there and you can also type your question in the qna and The first question comes from bishop. John chain Given the mutation it he formerly with the washington national cathedral given the mutation of covid nineteen wire the variance in great britain brazil and south africa. Different from the original covid nineteen and what are the elements in these countries that make these variance so different and wind some cases more lethal and more virulent and i would just add to that Obviously here in the united states we've seen It's it's now circulating here in the us So denver do on start short so All viruses mutate and this virus has previously pretty much since soon as it was identified But the the the mutations haven't really got the level of attention until now In part because they didn't really change much The the i will call it for simply because scientific name is so impossible during of numbers. It's really terrible but i. This is unfortunate. I'm gonna say the uk strain really got global attention because of an observation that it seemed to be producing more secondary infections than the previously Circulating strains or the previously dominantly circulating strains there is some question as to whether the viruses also more lethal though. I think the data aren't clear on that at this point but anyway The idea that the virus potentially could grow cases more quickly just because with each infected person. They have higher by our low. We don't fully understand the mechanism May affect more people than an average person who is infected with the virus. That didn't have that mutation. That is obviously worrisome. Because if the epidemic accelerates even further that obviously makes Control much harder. I think the bottom line right now just. The public health takeaway is what the discovery of these variants very much. More is the need to act with urgency. When it doesn't at this point what we need to do so the more people who get infected with the virus variant or not the more opportunities there are for mutations the more possibilities that these mutations could produce functional differences like either end transmission ability orange severity or potentially the ability to evade vaccines or medical countermeasures. We don't have data get to suggest that is a problem right now. fully They're a little bit of concern from the variants From south africa that they they may produce a different immune response but so far. They're still confidence that the vaccines will work But it just raises the possibility that maybe perhaps one day we will be dealing with that viruses that are are harder control with the tools that we have so the takeaway is that these things at urgency One challenge in all of this is that not all countries are looking for genetic mutations and the ones that do we don't do them at the same frequency so the uk in south africa are two countries that have done some of the most sequencing in the world and they are unfortunate to have found these variants and reported them because now countries have responded with travel restrictions and all sorts of Penalties that sort of you know A hurts the messenger. The united states for having the largest epidemic in the world. We have only a sequence of very very small like tens of thousands of our cases versus the twenty five million that we've had so That's just to say that our understanding of what variants are out there and where they are where they aren't in. My view is very much flawed base on completely inadequate surveillance. That said what we've discovered so far suggests that we need to get serious about controlling covid pursue the vaccination efforts while we can but also we can't up on our public health efforts And we must double down with urgency because You know again we want. The goal is to to protect people with vaccine and and not to let the virus. How pace that effort. Those efforts jennifer ramping up arcing Sequencing here in the us. Or i do believe we're doing more sequencing than we were doing. But i think it's a marginal difference from where we were before. Okay i'm gonna go next. Need three and please meet yourself david. Are you good. I just think there you go there. Identify who you are yes. yeah. I'm david greene hough President emeritus of eden geological seminary in saint. Louis nordine minister the united church of christ. I watched and participated in parallel event. We did a week or two ago on global equity. And i've been thinking about the generosity that people have and if we could engage their generosity that is they're not simply serving the interests again exiting but by getting a vaccine. They're actually trying to save. Another life occurred to me given the need for financial support globally. Has there been or could there be something like march of don's where people would be called to save a life by get a get a vaccine give a vaccine so they'd be encouraged to give five ten dollars and whatever. The global support rate is and do that. Do you know of such efforts. And do you have any thoughts about the efficacy after garcia. Thank you david for that question. I i am not familiar with specific efforts related to that. But there's messaging that you share that They're they're quite a few efforts as it relates to how to message the importance of of the vaccination and and groups that are really engaged. both From the public sector with regards to the federal and state and local public health agencies but also in the private sector. That are really working in one doing surveys to identify what messaging seems to be most effective in helping to inform communities about the benefits of the covert nineteen vaccine as well as to address concerns that may arise as it relates to the covid nineteen x and importantly to understand. That communities are not monolithic. That you know even in speaking of communities of color or even a in speaking of for example the latino community Or the black community that there is heterogeneity across communities in and understanding what messages may may really resonate and help Informed immunities to make the decisions with regards to to vaccinations and again as i pointed out to understanding that Individuals and families want to keep their families safe and there was Recently from the beaumont foundation As a survey that that they conducted and some information that they shared an tips with regards to messaging as it relates to the vaccination efforts And one is is really important to describe the benefits of vaccination and not solely focused on or emphasize the consequences of not getting vaccinated. And so your point where you talked about that by yourself. Getting vaccinated that You can then help to protect an and others and encourage others Is one of the messages with regards to say saying for example That the benefit is that it's it's an important way to protect you and your family From the nineteen and sharing that message and then also uh certainly not being judgmental as it relates to You know if individuals how concerns about the vaccine listening and trying to understand what those concerns aren't being able to address those So there there are. Those efforts are underway The ad council is is partnering with the coolest collaborative and has been doing work with regards to public. Messaging campaign biden administration is also planning with regards to You know doing a national campaign as well but let's also remember how important local trusted leaders are. Entrusted messengers are Especially as we think about advancing equity where Local healthcare providers community health workers community and faith based organizations are so critical because they're seen as trusted messengers to really be able to answer questions and also to be able to connect families and communities to access to the vaccine. Thank you Somebody wrote in the cia and the kyun a anonymously that Also i think the group luke. Chen may be contemplating something. Like this The group is collecting funds to help supply p. to the suffering people. Iraq and mom's repeats may be a good place to check so david you can look. They're gonna do a follow on question from lawrence whitney at boston. University wants to run on you or do you want me to read your question to put you on the spot one at you on a chore. Happiness the question so the nih recruited a group of religious leaders to in turn recruited more diverse cohort vaccine trial participants. Some wondering if you're aware of any similar program underway to specifically leverage Religious leaders in in addressing issues of equity in the distribution phase. And if so we have evidence that the strategies effective eugene so so i was one There have been examples of states for example in in june of their distribution plans You know there is variation across the states with bedrooms to the distribution plans and And where they discussed in how they prioritized equity but there are states for example like massachusetts that has a really investing in and providing grants both to vaping organizations as well as community based organizations to help with regards to outreach and education messaging and access to services as as it relates to a cold nineteen other examples of states where they've actually had a faith community that is part of the task forces That are created with regards to the health equity. Taskforce's i in the states i'd to be able to Again identify strategies in ways to bring together The various a trusted messengers to not only provide them with the education of how to do this and become messengers communities by to help identify where those resources are needed in various communities. This is something that is not unique chance. I would say code. Nineteen as as noted earlier. When i served in the obama administration led the office of minority health. We did this effort as well as a related. Jim the affordable care act and outreach off the affordable care i gained working very closely with faith leaders Whether it was i to host town halls utilize Their places of worship as as places where you could actually sign up To get access to healthcare ought to health insurance coverage similarly with other types of outbreaks bola and rica similarly connecting with faith leaders and finding that that was an important vehicle again because of the trusts as well as the longest established relationships and networks That leaders have thank you rob rocking next. Thank you arena. Rob radke with fiscal relief and development. What consideration is being given making. Bution more patient saint My experiences than accessing vaccines even for why already vulnerable populations is extremely difficult requires access to computers. I levels of literacy access to transportation off on And essentially you know it very very high levels of personal motivation and it feels like this has been very top down and if we really want to reach vulnerable people And high populations we kind of have to. My sense is that needs to be rethought. And i'm wondering where if that's happening. Jennifer you wanna start go to knitting short shortages some some high level observations Which is first of all. This is what you're seeing right now are is the start of a process that in my view should have been started a long time ago but you know states have been begging for help and resources for a very long time and very only recently got money to help them Start these plans Which i really think was a shortcoming in our roll rollout of these vaccines But you're gonna see the tension here where there is a need for speed and states. Are you know every day. They're being asked by the press. How many of your vaccines given out. versus doing the exacting work of Achieving coverage in your highest priority groups trying to find those people trying to meet them where they are Cetera the first vaccination in many states focused initially on healthcare workers and so that was a captive audience a captive population that was in a within health facilities that could be reached and scheduled an even that failed to capture say staff that weren't on the email systems so it's really difficult work. That's being done. It'll tell you a friend of mine We'll see where she works. But she works in a major city. That was trying to schedule vaccination clinics and they found out that one of their kind of invite sign up lists sort of went viral and when they saw who signed up and visit codes that the people were coming from and saw as it goes that we're completely not represented in Those sign ups probably reflecting who is more easily able to get on the computer and schedule and pass the word around They actually canceled. The clinic decided they need to start over again to figure out how they can make sure they're also reaching their their Their hard hit communities. So i think some of it is is being worked on now I think some of the approaches where it's been talked about for instance taking advantages of federally qualified health centers. I think we're going to have to go on multiple paths here where we are considering opening up more. Broadly and do more of these mass vaccination efforts in stadiums but recognize. We can not only use those approaches because those will leave communities and and people behind and that we need other options and you know the extent to which the community can also Those of you attending this webinar as as particularly well-suited suited to advocate for your the communities that you serve to say you know even lead help getting to their appointment and and and sort of volunteered organiz i. I don't think there's a lack of interest. There's just a lack of you and a lack of time and a lack of fan. With and i think this is this moment in our history where everyone has to kind of roll their sleeves up and if you have a skill that you can bring to try your best to bring it to the table and help i know come. Yes recco You know several points that doctors just mentioned Which is you know bringing the vaccination to kennedy and recognizing that we are at the beginning. Not only were states localities. Just now starting to receive these dollars in funding and and an organization. He had long called for the need for planning but meaning resources to do that. Planning preparation or the distribution of an administration. But it's also recognizing that in particular with the public health system because system has long been funded There where there's now shortages with regards to the workforce and stretched stretch for several months in responding to this pandemic and so the need for the partnerships that you're describing a really are so critically important and it will require expanding for example aware. Vaccinations can begin. So whether that's in federal with all the media health centers or other be health centers in rural had l. centers But also having opting for mobile clinics that can go to communities and other types of community centers Where the they also have trust To be able to reach a communities is going to be vital and so not only and advocacy that you can do to ensure that those types of sites are part of the plan with regards to ongoing distribution administration but also are there mechanisms in ways for you to actually engage in and be a part of that distribution administration Process as far as the sites that are in communities because indeed transportation issues ensuring that communities have access to information on that is In multiple languages that is culturally appropriate and utilizes different mechanisms when we For example were doing outreach. As it related to The flint crisis as well as to the affordable care act we Tailored approaches to save the community. Also get information so it wasn't necessarily always only rely on internet technologies but also the radio television You know whether it was community outreach workers and really expanding the approaching so that we can ensure equity with regards to our outreach. I'd like to go next to sister. Markham of catholic charities usa onto you wanna ask your question yourself mute yourself. Happy to ask it myself. I'm sister donna. Markham and i represent. I'm the president of catholic charities through the us. And i am. I just think from Practicality perspective right now we're we've been really trying to encourage our vulnerable communities especially communities of color a homeless population etc to get vaccinated. But it's a tough sell because they're not real patient any less patient than the rest of us even are as so when we're encouraging them they get there they're dispirited. There's no information about how long it's gonna take even if they're one of the risk categories By virtue of or health condition. So i guess my question really is are there any plans in the works to tell that to be transparent about what's happening To communicate with the public to say okay. Twenty thousand people are ahead of you in line and oshkosh wisconsin It'll be about you know we're looking for is going to be three months before we call you. I mean that kind of information. I think would be really helpful and it would help those of us that are trying to serve those communities if we weren't just kind of sending them down a black hole of mystery so that's just a question of and maybe it's just difficult because nobody wants to get in the public and say we really don't know but it's it is very frustrating and it does stand in the way of helping those communities. So maybe i mean. I think the issue is that The states in the local health jurisdictions. Just don't have the information that they need in order to be able to tell the public. I mean one of the challenges. They don't really understand how much vaccine they're going to get in win. And so that's an incredible planning challenge and then there's also fact that You know the federal government announced an intention to expand vaccination efforts beyond the initial priority groups before any state had a heads up. And you know the day that then secretary of health and human services said we. We are calling on states to offer vaccines to people sixty five up. No state had advanced knowledge of that. And you know based on my friends and family. I know a lot of senior citizens got on. The phone started calling the find out when they were next. The there were no systems in place to receive those inquiries. So now they're trying to set up the systems and to bring people in that kind of logistic that kind of scheduling. It's one thing to do in in a clinical environment with healthcare workers but health departments. Don't have that that infrastructure and so they're standing it up. In some cases private sector organizations have reached out to offer help. i think that's encouraging there's always worries that you know we have to be transparent about those efforts and make sure that that doesn't gain access inappropriately. Tha vaccine so i don't have an answer for you other than It's not a question of nobody. Wanting to tell i think people very much want to be able to say to somebody. This is when you're going to get your vaccine. I just think there's no way to do it right now. I mean even the cdc director the new cdc director Said the other day that they basically have no idea how much vaccine is coming. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes we've made in. The vaccine is that we have over promised how quickly was going to be delivered and my mental picture for me as someone who is not in the high risk group was always that it might be sometime late summer and that was never aligned with what i was being told but it's based on my own knowledge of how things are unlikely are likely to go and so i think we just have to set expectations. Which is that. We have never attempted a vaccination campaign of this magnitude. The systems that are needed to to do this have not yet been built and the information that's needed to inform messaging is not yet there. I think it will get there. I am quite hopeful that we are in better days but it's gonna take some rocky terrain and the next few weeks until we get to a better place nadine i i would just Reiterate the you know this being such an unprecedented logistical effort and and and trying to as was said Even know how much of the vaccine that you have coming to you for the states and localities to be able to do that planning Has been a challenge. And so i think that's why you're also seeing certainly A with The biden administration wanting to say there needs to be more communication collaboration from the federal to the state and local levels To to have that awareness to be able to also manage expectations. And i think with With this being a certainly a new vaccine roll out effort knowing that there is going to be limited supply in the beginning phases And that emphasis is on initially vaccinating those with the greatest exposure and why and understanding why healthcare workers in the in those and long term care facilities were were the first groups to be to be vaccinated and that has more and more vaccine becomes available to expanding Those populations with regards to who has access to the vaccine. It's not it's not easy It is not easy to message but the communicating and regularly communicating providing clear. Communications are important And updating communities to that to have that understanding so that there is transparency but We can also manage expectations and and have an understanding. That as communities are waiting for vaccinations the importance of continuing with public health measures. That are so vital from wearing masks to The physical distancing to the frequent hand washing cetera. And how important that is as well. As part of all of the tools that we have in really working to control an stop the spread of the pandemic adam carroll next if you could get yourself also with the muslim community. I see a lot of trust issues. And it's not the sorority among people who won't wear masks down but yet a distrust so pervasive so ooh about reach efforts will be needed. I wanna ask go beyond the cultural aspect reaching the most elderly. It seems that the categories have been made very broad As you just said jennifer our states surprised by suddenly throwing open the door to anyone over sixty five at somebody over eighty five is a lot more fragile or vulnerable. I should say Generally speaking so why were the categories mates broad you have any sense and also You know new jersey is allowing all smokers to be vaccinated. So how do states allow such odd criteria of for vaccination and of course this all relates to question of supply which i think you know. We all have to ramp up production. How can we manage to do that. Who would like to take that first. So there's a few things there. I mean first of all But decisions are going to be made by the states. That's just where the constitutional authority. The constitution puts the primary responsibility for public health. On the states. The priority groups were set guidelines and states have always been free to implement those guidelines. They wish many states did follow them on what we see. Is that identifying priority groups based on either exposure categories or risk factors for severe illness and death Is i think in my view a very ethical way to go about allocating scarce resources. It's just slow an exact thing work to try to find those people particularly when you don't have enough vaccine to cover the entire priority group And we don't have an infrastructure to say. Okay let's find all of the people eighty five in the community or all the people who are sixty five plus or it's just it's really tough and and And what we saw in the first month of vaccination was very slow Vaccine rates of of administering the vaccine that states had received in part. Because they were doing this. Very exacting work of trying to schedule people according to cry priority and in some cases those prioritization schemes. Were directly hindering vaccination efforts in the sense that you know some states didn't say okay give it every one who works on health facility but they said okay while we don't have enough to do that give it to the people who are most likely to be exposed in the health facility with your ability manager that means that you need to find those people schedule them bring them in. You have to figure out which axiom they're going to get and then you had to figure out what to do with if you had extra doses in the vial in who you can give that to. You didn't want to be the one you know health facility. That was in the news for giving it to the wrong people. In some cases we heard stories about health facilities. Rescheduling everybody for another day when they could get more to come and take those extra doses. Some states prevented Health facilities from offering it beyond once. They cameron everybody in in a certain job category. They had to wait until all the health facilities could catch up. So you're seeing that kind of challenges working through these things these plans in real time and realizing where they work and where they don't And so you know as there is an increasing recognition that at some level getting the vaccine in arms is better than not there is going to be this tension between speed and trying to just get coverage so that hopefully we can protect as many people as possible to also wanting to make sure that we cover the people who are most likely to be exposed and most likely to be harmed by the virus. This just really really hard. There's always gonna be. I think that tension there I hope it'll get easier. Just wanna say one more thing on the the the misinformation wyatt's so hard so reports there the historical issues The fact that hesitation about vaccines predate copen in all communities all of us have some level of hesitation. It's just for different reasons. But covert i believe is unique in the sense that At least in my professional life. It's the first time. I am seeing incredibly organized. Set of groups that are coordinating and using tools. That we never had before to spread disinformation. They're intentionally trying to mislead about the vaccine but the virus for different goals some antibac- groups that are seeing covert as a historic opportunity to expand hesitation about vaccines and all they need to do is just so doubt and they are targeting groups that have historic mistrust of vaccines as a way of doing that. there are also groups that are trying to sell things alternatives and so. They're spreading disinformation as a way to to boost their profits. You know we have Live in a situation where the virus itself has been politicized and Groups that are aiming to sow doubt about the vaccine's recognized recognized that continuing to sow doubt about the virus is a way to sort out about the vaccines. And so some of the work that i've been doing and looking at the role of kovac scenes among healthcare workers and hearing about lots of refusals sometimes because of the vaccine but also sometimes because even in heart had hospitals. They don't believe that the virus poses a threat to them as individuals and. I don't blame anybody for this. Other than the fact that there are very powerful forces at work trying to Sold out and we haven't appropriately amass counter campaigns To spread the right information to counter the disinformation. That's that's being unleashed. Unfortunately early. So i wanna give the last word so my policies jeopardy who still questions that i want to give democracia a chance to make to to make any closing thoughts on the hills with dr moosa said sure i was actually just going to pick up where doctrines Left off with regards to the oath misinformation and disinformation how how indeed that spread of of misinformation As well as as as intentional efforts through disinformation is is is widespread in really Challenging as it relates to to addressing concerns and questions that communities have while shared his s some resources certainly for those of you who are actively working on on this in in wanting to try to really help communities and getting access information in addition to the accidents mentioned that you may have from local agencies and state agencies as well as the federal agencies there's also a public health communications collaborative that our organization is one of the members of and at that has specific resources and actually is tracking the misinformation. That is out an improvised either strategies of. How do you respond to you respond. What are some tactics and techniques And we know much more needs to be done because The inflammation information. That is spreading moving at such a rapid pace. That that is going to be something that we will continue to grapple with To be able to ensure that that can use are getting accurate and timely information. Thank you and we will circulate these resources. We're going to go back to both. Dr garcia dr new for their Thoughts of resources. We should share with you. All you both should sign off now. Because i know you have a two o'clock and i want to get an opportunity to now i'll see. Thanks thanks to you while you're while you're leaving just some housekeeping notes for the group here. Thank you both very much. Thank you so you can follow Dr garcia on twitter at helped the america one and you can follow dr new at jennifer news. Oh we also encourage you to follow. Cfr's religion and foreign policy program on twitter at cf afar underscore religion for announcements about events information about lacey. If our resources as always reach out to us. Ed outreach at work with any suggestions on future webinars our events we will circulate the transcript a video of this webinar along with resources Thank you all again. Please stay well stay healthy and we will be convening again shortly so thank you all enjoy the rest of your day.
Rashida Tlaib on her stand against racism and Trump
"Tonight on all end, we had a long day. But it wasn't a long enough day. New hearings are announced who else knows at president at this. As the cone fallout grows. Wow tonight. How Democrats are expanding their investigation into criminal activity inside the White House. I am no longer your fixer, Mr. Trump. Plus what we have here. Mr Chairman is criminal conduct congresswoman Rashida to leave on her stand against racism and the president were taken down. I reclaim my time. Then breaking news from the New York time shares outstanding job the president overruled his own intelligence agencies to grant security clearance, Jared Kushner, and then lied about it and is Trump defends the North Korean dictator over the death of an American. He tells me that he didn't know a look at who the president decides to trust ROY Moore denies it. That's all I can say all in starts right now. Good evening from New York. I'm Chris as we have a fishery entered a new phase in the investigations, plural. Into the president after the first ever public testimony by a member of his inner circle the nation watched and presumably the president washed as Michael Kohn before congress. The American people implicated the president in numerous crimes also claiming the president had prior knowledge of the very first WikiLeaks, dump of the two thousand sixteen election. Now comb was back on Capitol Hill again today the third day in a row this time giving closed door testimony to the house intelligence committee afterwards chairman, Adam Schiff announced more hearings to come. We very much appreciate Mr. coinc- cooperation, he is obviously had three very long days. He'll be returning on March six for additional testimony the following week on March fourteenth. We'll have an open interview with Felix Seder on Moscow Trump Tower. I should tell you Justice at your expectations. Not every hearing is going to be like the open here with Michael Cohen con dropped a lot of names in yesterday's testimony before the house oversight committee alleged compasses or witnesses who could corroborate his claims about the president, including the president's children, the oversight chairman Elijah Cummings told reporters today that he wants to hear from every single person whose name shows up in the hearing transcript house intelligence is reportedly interested in one whose name came up the most Trump organization CFO, Alan Weisselberg. He's been with the company for decades, and is said to know every last detail about the business. We already knew the president was implicated. Waited in the criminal scheme to violate campaign. Finance law to which Cohn pleaded guilty last year identified as individual one in those court documents and cones testimony now brings that scheme inside. The White House cone presented what he said was a reimbursement. Check for the illegal stormy Daniels. Hush money payment signed by the president and dated August first two thousand seventeen while Donald Trump was in office. But that is just one of the many potential crimes of which Cohen accused his former boss besides the campaign finance violations cone, implicated, the president and tax fraud insurance fraud, Bank fraud, perjury, obstruction of Justice, false statements to law enforcement and self dealing in his charitable foundation. That was just the stuff that Cohn was authorized talk about and that appears to be the tip of the iceberg. Is there any other wrongdoing or illegal act that you are aware of regarding Donald Trump that we haven't yet discussed? Today. Yes. And again, those are part of the investigation. That's currently being looked at by the southern district of New York. Now, those potential crimes has anything to do at all with the investigation by special counsel, Robert Muller, and on that front cone dropped a bombshell that suggests Muller could be sitting on much more explosive information than he has disclosed thus far in the prepared section of his testimony cone claim that Roger stone gave the president advance notice of the first WikiLeaks dump in summer 2016 a revelation. He presumably made with authorization from the special counsel that doesn't appear anywhere. Miller's court filings, though, it does fit with the timing that the Muller folks have already laid out according to Muller's indictment of Russian military hackers WikiLeaks confirmed to the hackers at the Russian GRE you folks who had gotten the stolen material on or about July eighteenth two thousand sixteen that it had received the stolen DNC documents. It would release them. Shortly thereafter, Cohen, testified that stone spoke to the. President on July eighteenth and nineteenth is journalists. Marcy, Wheeler points out in the New York Times, if Mr Miller is hiding similar examples of the president participating in the conspiracy. It suggests that whatever he plans to release in a report may have some unanticipated bombshells, I'm joined now by one of the members of the house intelligence committee who questioned Michael Kohn behind closed doors today, congressman, Sean, Patrick Maloney of New York. Congressman did you learn anything new today? Yes. Learn quite a bit today. I'm not at liberty to discuss the specifics of the testimony. But what I can tell you is that Michael Cohen was credible. He was forthcoming. We appreciate his cooperation. We're there things you discussed. I imagined that we're not discussed in the open session before the oversight committee. Yes, that's true as well. And again while I can't go into this civics. I think this week will be remembered as a seminal week in the investigation of these matters. I think the testimony of. Mr. Cohen is absolutely central to getting at the truth of what happened, and we are happy to see that big piece of the puzzle fitting in do you have a clearer sense of what happened after today's testimony? Yes, that's three yeses in a row again. It's this is because Mr. Cohen has been incredibly forthcoming he answered every question he was cooperative generous with his time after doing this two days in a row and now a third day and he's coming back next week. So we are looking forward to his continued testimony. We're not through and again, this is just one witness with one one set of evidence to provide. But he has been very helpful was the March sixth return testimony always on the books or was that? Because today went long, and you had more stuff. You know? I don't know the specifics of that. I think I think I'll leave that to the chairman to discuss in detail. I don't I don't I didn't know about it before today. I think commonsense to tell you there's a lot to discuss here. And and we are being very thorough fee. Felix sater's going to be before your committee March fourteenth? Of course, the person exchanged emails with Michael Cohen about how our boy can get elected president, and we can build this Trump Tower in Moscow. What is the thinking just in a general sense between what's in open session and enclosed session before the committee yours? Well, look, our focus is more on Russia per se yesterday, you saw some eye-popping testimony. I thought you did a great job of summarizing yet. I mean to have a win this come in. With documents demonstrating that the president was involved in a criminal conspiracy to evade campaign finance laws and cover cover cover it up. I mean, that's quite that's quite a lot. That's a pretty good day's work. But I'll tell you our focus is really on on on Russia. It's on the interactions between the Trump campaign and the Russians there's a lot. We have not learned before you know, every day that goes by every new fact shows what a joke the Republican investigation was in the last congress. This is very important that we do a thorough job. And we get the facts out to all of you. You. You mentioned your Republican colleagues. I've always wondered this because I'd never been into closed session because I've never been able to sit on the house intelligence or a Senate committee is it the same vibe in closed session as it is when the cameras are rolling. Well, I'd say it's a trade off. I mean, there's a real value to having all of you see it in real time. But there's also a benefit to being behind closed doors. Where naturally there's less temptation to grandstand. The fact is the fact is is that a lot of our Republican colleagues didn't attend today's hearing or or only attended for a brief period of time. And that's the kind of thing they can get away with when when we're in closed session, but I will tell you what was there? That's right. Like a lot of them what I can tell you is dwindled as the day went on. And I think that's I think that's pretty amazing when you consider what we're dealing with. But I'll tell you is that the value of a closed session is that you can really go deep you can be thorough, and you can and you can really take your time to get all the facts, I have to say the staff of our committee. Deserves a medal for the work. They've done, and I really do want to commend Mexico and for the level of cooperation he's provided. Obviously, he has credibility issues. We need to take that seriously corroboration is really important to everything he he says. But look it was a very it was a very good day. All right, and he will back March checks and also Felix center March fourteenth. And we will keep our eyes on both of those congressman Sean Patrick Maloney in the house intelligence committee. Thank you. For more on the new phase that Trump investigations launched by Michael Cohen testimony. I'm joined by Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut, member of the Senate Judiciary committee and MSNBC contributor Joyce fans. Former US attorney for the eastern district of Alabama Senator let me start with you. Do you feel like you? We are in a new phase. After yesterday this week has been a very bad one for individual number one for Donald Trump. This has been a week of tooth felon telling and fact finding and I think that we're in a different faith because all of those crimes you indicated our investigation not only by Robert mullet. But also in the southern district of New York in the eastern district of Virginia. These criminal investigations are spread among them and Cohn has been a powerful and compelling witness. You believe to him yesterday. He has credibility problems because he lied. I'd to congress before. But yeah, I mean, that's the congress before, but he has a long record of lying all over the place. He has a long record of lying and he worked for again Ohman who has a record of electrically lying. But remember this. I used to make arguments the jury, and I used to tell them, you know, we don't make these drug cases over these organized crime cases with choirboys we make them with people and were involved and they have criminal wrongdoing in their background, and he directly linked Donald Trump two very serious criminal wrongdoing, which is corroborated by other witnesses and documents Joyce, the one person who I thought must've been pulling their hair yesterday or calling their lawyer or inside some sort of shelter was Allen Weisselberg. I mean, the guy must have been mentioned two dozen times. What do you think his future is both in front of congress and in front of southern district? Well, I think you're right. It wasn't a very good day for mister Weisselberg. We know. He's already spent a little bit of time with prosecutors. We know he was given some form of limited immunity for testimony. But we don't know what it related to limited immunity, which came before a grand jury and prosecutors sometimes we'll say, look, whatever you say in this year immune for right? Presumably that's what happened, and that's different from being a cooperating witness a cooperating witness works out a deal that they won't be prosecuted or they'll get less time, and they will fully cooperate. That's not what happened with him. It's a little bit risky for him to testify on the hill. If he asserts the fifth amendment privilege folks up on the hill won't get the testimony they want if they give him immunity to compel testimony. There is a risk a strong risk that it could immunize him from whatever charges southern district of New York might be contemplating. Let me let me ask you about this other district when you say southern district you mentioned east injury. Those are things, you know, from public press reports, right? There's no back channel communication to you on the committee or anyone that those investigation. Are happening. Correct. We know that the southern district is investigating campaign violations of possible financial crime because they have returned indictments. But I mean, you know that based on the public record. There's no secret. There's no secret knowledge about what's happening in those places. You have access to correct. That's correct. There's a bunch of other people who are named yesterday, including the president's children Avante Trump. Donald Trump junior. Rhona Graff was the president's personal assistant David pecker at AM. I the chief operations officer Matthew column calamari also named yesterday who has one of the all time greatest names of anyone I've ever encountered in the years. I've been doing news. Do you anticipate seeing those people up on capitol? Very definitely I would end -ticipant, for example, Donald Trump junior hopefully coming back before the judiciary committee. He testified before the judiciary committee in our interview that his father had no advance knowledge about the Trump Tower meeting on June ninth. He told you that under oath. In closed session. He told us that under potential penalty of perjury. Michael Kohn yesterday described in some detail a meeting where the president was told by Donald Trump junior about that meeting in events. He also thinks Michael cones making deduction they're just want to be scrupulously fair about and he told him also about the conversation with Roger stone where the president encouraged and approved Roger stone talking to WikiLeaks about the dump of stolen. I emphasize stolen emails. What do you make your prosecutor? You ran the US attorney's office. I mean, put yourself through the head of Weber's running that shop down SEM WI with between what my Kuna said, whatever they happen. The recommend the I mean, you know, each fraud is a crime tax frauds a crime, all that stuff is crimes. I mean, don't they have an obligation to go digging on that pretty hard? Absolutely. You know, if you're investigating a Bank robbery. And you stumble across the murder, you don't just ignore the murder and say, well, we're here to look at Bank robbery and prosecutors and agents, and you know, this just like I do they're like curious four year old children. So anything that doesn't fit anything that you have more questions about? That's what you investigate and you go and till you've investigated an answer answered every last question that you have it's it's not a complicated process in that sense. It's using your common sense to follow an answer all the questions that you have about what happened. There's also the question yesterday about taxes and the degree to which this swirling forever. Obviously, the your colleagues in the house have the power to subpoena them to get their hands on them. Do you in? How important is that to you after yesterday's testimony generally profoundly important, and we are investigating also in the emoluments lawsuit that we brought we hope you get tax returns because the president has benefited by the payments. Oh, you're going to try to get them through discovery. Exactly, right. Interesting. Now one more point about Donald Trump junior. Enjoy said it very well. Once these threads are established. Once the connections are made Donald Trump junior in effect lying to congressional committee. Donald Trump Trump junior signing those reimbursement checks. Donald Trump junior implicated in other criminal activity. You have the connections that are the hallmark of a conspiracy. You seem to have your eyes on Donald Trump junior. You think he lied to your committee? I think he lied to our committee at least so far as we can tell right now. All right, Senator Richard Blumenthal enjoys fans, thank you both. I had congresswoman Rasheed had to leave on her. Takeaway from the cone hearing yesterday and why she decided to speak truth to power. She put it when it came to racism and the president and next breaking news New York Times new reporting tonight that the president of the United States lied flat out about overruling his own intelligence agencies to get national security clearance for his son in law at story in two minutes. Well, if they lied again this time about how Jared Kushner got his top secret security clearance, despite all kinds of red flags like for instance, telling the Russian ambassador during the transition he wanted to use Russian facilities away from the prying eyes of American intelligence to set up a secret back channel with the Kremlin and not reporting that wildly sketching meeting on his own security application or the report from Washington Post that officials from at least four countries discussed ways to manipulate Kushner by taking advantage of his complex business arrangements financial difficulties and lack of foreign policy experience and yet despite all those honking, red lights Kushner was upgraded to top secret security clearance over the objections a career fficials who had rejected his application. And so the question is how did that happen who had the power to give Jared Kushner top-secret appearance? General Amos witness to early polls the beer known. I don't think I have the authority to do that. I'm not sure. But I I wouldn't I wouldn't do it. Jarrett's a good. I was I was never involved with the security. I know that he just from reading. I know that there was issues back and forth about security for for numerous people, actually. But I don't want to get involved in that stuff so flat denial there, did you do it. No. And then along hypothetical. I don't wanna get off. Okay. Presents said now that denial then echoed by none. Other than Ivanka Trump a week later. There were some issues early on. And there are a lot of people that question whether you were given special treatment by the president overriding other absolutely officials can you speak to that. There were anonymous leaks about there being issues, but the president had no involvement pretending to my clearance, or my husband's Clarence zero just ally just a flat out on camera lie by Trump, right? They're looking at Abby Huntsman and lying. Just the words. Coming out our lies. They are untrue. Things. Lies near times reports tonight that it was President Trump. Oh shocker who ordered then chief of staff John Kelly to give Kushner top secret clearance. Joining me now, Chris loop former White House cabinet secretary and assistant of President Obama. Okay. Chris mystery solved. Not that surprising. But how big a deal is it? Oh, it's a big deal. And I say that it's hard to get shocked by anything these days. But let's take a look at the process. This is a process that is run. By career security officials who evaluate not only your travels your financial dealings your contacts. And they weigh it in terms of the national security risk, and these career officials said that Jared Kushner posed a security risk, and this was so serious at this got bumped up to the White House chief of staff and the White House counsel and to both of their credits. They said Jared Kushner did not deserve a clearance. And yes, the president can override this. But I would say it's disingenuous from to say he doesn't know about this process. You'll recall he revoked John Brennan security clearance. So he knows full well how this process works. So this is a big deal and one thing to keep in mind here is when you're thinking about both the career officials who are human beings who work embedded in an institution, and they know which side the White House is pushing on and also the White House counsel, Don Mcgann, and the chief of staff no one wants to be the one to say, no to the boss's son in law getting security clearance to do his job. The fact they. They did that in like based on the factual record. Makes you think it must have been pretty bad. Well, it exactly right. I mean, we know that from his financial disclosure form. He had to do it redo it forty times along the way you have seen the reporting about health. Foreign officials thought that they could potentially compromise Jared Kushner as part of his dealings. Let me put this in context I worked for Barack Obama for eleven years. I think it has security clearance, three different times. I had to go through the process as did everyone who serves at the highest level and has access to the information. If I could not have qualified for Clarence Barack Obama would not have overridden the recommendations. He would have found another place for me. And you don't need to believe me, James Clapper. The former deny went on TV today and said he's not aware of this ever happening before. Yes. So you're saying there's no special favor there. Maybe you get a job in HHS or something where you don't have to have a clearance. But it's just not done that you override in this way. It is just not done. Chris let's put this in the broader context of how this president handles security matters. We know that he is using unsecured phone. We know that he's held national security meetings in front of mar-a-lago guesses disclosed classified information to the Russian Foreign Minister to fundraisers, and we know that he's revoked a security clearances of his political opponents and on top of all that he ran an entire campaign based on the baseless allegation that his opponent had misused in for classified information. So this is hypocritical in the extreme. Plus, we should note that the Don Mcgann and John Kelly were both so alarmed by this season or so determined to cover their own reputations that they both wrote contemporaneous memo's being like this is Donald Trump doing this on the question you what is weird about? This is the president the national security state that we have erected basically post nineteen forty five and the classification system, which has metastasized it all sort of is run by the president of the top. The president is the ultimate lay the person who gives. Her takes away clearances almost like a king and certain ways he could have just granted this why the lies why do they lie about it? You know? I don't know why the lies. I mean, I'd like to think that they tried to run the normal process. But I suspect. As you see from the New York Times reporting. He kept thinking somebody below him was going to take care of this. And he finally got so frustrating. That's right. Yes. Exactly. He didn't want to be him reaching in to do it for his son in law, by the way, who has portfolio and his running around the Middle East talking to him Bs right now, maybe putting a piece field together. Chris lewis. Thank you very much. Thank you yesterday. We all wash is Michael Cohen testified that the president is a degenerate racist, North Carolina, congressman, Mark meadows, close Allie. The president of Jackie to this fact, and he did so by displaying woman next to him name Lynn patent, an African American Trump supporter who happens to now work for the Trump administration. She used to work for the Trump org wasn't too long before Rashida to leave a democrat from Michigan. Colds him out on this strange display congresswoman proceeded to leave joins me to talk about it next. Just to make a note. Mr Chairman, just because someone has a person of color, a black person working for them does not mean, they aren't racist. And it is insensitive that somewhat even say, it's the fact that someone would actually use prop a black woman in this chamber in this committee. Is alone. Racists in itself, my nieces and nephews are people of color. Not many people know that you know, that miss Mr Chairman, and to indicate that I asked someone who is a personal friend of the the Trump family who is worked for him who knows this particular individual that she's coming in to be a prop. It's racist to suggest that I asked her to come in here for that reason. So that exchange happened yesterday. The very end of the cone hearing today congresswoman Rashida to leave and congressman Mark meadows had a brief conversation on the house floor during some other house business and that ended with a hug in the interim meadows of meadows outburst, prompted some searching through the man's archives and not one but two video surfaced showing meadows during his first congressional run in two thousand twelve engaging in Bertha's. Twelve is the time that we're going to send Mr Obama home to Kenya. Wherever it is. If we do our job from a grassroots sampling, we won't have to worry about, you know, we'll send me back home the Kenya. Where it really is. Mata's asked earlier today about those comments it was early on in a primary, and and certainly didn't indicate any. Personal malice that I would have towards eighty president. Previous order or sitting president anyone who knows me knows that there is not a racial bone in my body, not a single racial bone in their joining me now from Detroit democratic congressman Rashida to leave. Michigan a member of the house oversight committee. Mr. meadows has spoken about your exchange day on the floor. I wanted to hear your side of what that exchange was today. Yeah. I was I looked up and there he was. Thank you me for being gracious. We have changed about what happened in committee. And we win, you know, our separate ways it was really thoughtful of him to to come up to me. And to me that way, I think some of my colleagues were around. We're also watching exchange, but I did appreciate that. He did that do you are you do you regret saying what you said yesterday in the in the hearing or do you stand by what you said yesterday in here? Oh, absolutely not. I mean, I really do stand by and folks need to know what you know, I come from a community that I was raised in which is the most beautiful blackest city in the country and fully around us in what's happening. I think in the country right now with the sitting president of the United States very much. I wanted to be heard I wanted to be seen and for me at that moment watching this young woman stand up behind congressman meadows in that way, was very hurtful and. And it was very disrespectful. Did you what is the bigger lesson here? Because I think one of the things that happens every day in congress. Now, the house minority the Republican party is overwhelmingly white male. I mean, you know, really, you really see it. The majority is a much more of a diverse coalition of folks from different ethnic backgrounds different races. It's female representation is higher. And it kind of seems like we're watching these sort of two Americas interact tensely with each other in every city signal comedic committee hearing. Yeah. I mean, I could tell you so many of us. I mean, this is the most diverse class the largest class since Watergate. But I think many of us didn't run to be the first at anything many of us, especially the women of color that are there really ran because they had a desire to do right by their communities, and their families, they represent, but also, you know, we didn't come just to make congress look differently, which I think is important. But also we want to speak differently, and we wanna feel differently. We want people back home to be able to relate to this congress to feel like it is a People's Congress. And reflective of who we are are thought that moment was an example that I have to say, I mean, if you had not said that a lot of people remarked about that a lot people remarked about that moment is social media. A lot of people that we work with remarked about it. How do you not set it? I don't think it would have gotten said in that room. So that was that was it was a striking moment for that reason. Did you I wanna pivot to the substance because you were in that committee to talk to Michael cone and here his testimony? Did you find him? Do you feel like you? Learn new things yesterday. You know, what I did find is? I mean, this is a man that represented and was a personal lawyer for the sitting president of the United States for ten years, but all of his criminal acts has lies all of it's related interconnected to the president of the United States. The man that sits in the Oval Office right now, and so much of these criminal schemes continued on into the two thousand seventeen th year, not only from the money that he paid back the bribery that he paid back to Mr. Cohen. But also, this constant. Just a reflection of what he is as a president. I mean from the fact that he'd fraud use a fraudulent schemes the fact that he's lied in the past all of the different terminologies that I think Mr. Cohen presented to all of us. It was very much eye-opening. But at the same time lot of us knew this was happening. But I think at a moment I remember sitting there and when he was saying that as he was leaving the Oval Office. Mr. Cohen looked back in President Trump says to him, you know, you're getting your next payment. It just takes a little bit longer for because the White House mailing system. I mean at the moment is just the gravity of the fact that this is a sitting president of the United States sending you know. I don't even call it. Hush money. It's bribery to continue this scheme while he sits in the Oval Office. What else do we not know as an American people? I guess the question is that that example, you just bring up that is something that's already been charged and pleaded to as a felony crime in the southern. District in the jurisdiction of the southern district. Did you hear anything can peachable yesterday? What is it done to your thinking about impeachment from day one? And everyone knows this from the number of public statements. But also op-eds I've written and statements that I've made publicly throughout my district in even in DC. I can tell you it is so much interconnected. But most importantly for me as an attorney as somebody that even just took the oath of office and upholding the United States constitution. It is my duty and responsibility to hold every single person. To the rule of law to the United States constitution, and I can tell you the biggest fear, and what makes many of us upset is the fact that he hasn't divested in any of his domestic or international businesses much of the decisions. He's making right now is so much in conflict in what is the best interest of the American people. And this is the emolument clause of the United States constitution. This is in there. And it's very clear because this is not going to be our last CEO, folks. I mean America needs to wake up and understand that if we're going to let this president not provide and be transparent about not only his taxes. But the fact that he hasn't completely cut ties with the Trump organization we've already seen leases that entered into between the White House, and the Trump organization we've seen over a thousand illegal contacts from Saudi Arabian government to a number of other entities with the Trump organization that alone is so dangerous in threatens. Our democracy in this country link illegal context, what do you mean by that? Oh, I mean, for instance, the Saudi Arabian government spending two hundred seventy thousand dollars at the Trump hotel DC to me, that's an illegal act, your I I got you. Yeah. I I want him to ensure that there wasn't some new story. I miss congressman. She tells me she had to leave. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me still ahead, Matt gaetz is witness intimidation. And the desperate lengths Republicans will go to to win the favor of the president, plus meet Medi-Cal Amari. That's that. I think one thing to next. Thing. One tonight Michael Cohen named several people yesterday who may have known about dirty deeds inside the Trump organization, but one name in particular, really stuck out tear knowledge to the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company. Yes. Who else knows that the president at this Allen Weisselberg, Ron Liebman and Matthew calamari? I'm sorry. Who is that that a real person Matthew calamari is this Twitter user, so accurately? Put it Matthew Kalamaria sounds like a made up name by the screenwriter of a mafia b movie who doesn't know any actual Italians. But he is real and he is spectacular. This is Matthew Matty calamari executive vice president and chief operating officer of the Trump organization if he doesn't really look like the executive type two, well, he's not he reportedly caught Trump's I back in the eighties when the future president saw him roughing up some hecklers at a tennis tournament. We're Calamar was working security. Trump hired him as a bodyguard and sometime show for which is what color Maury was doing when this exchange occurred as described in a nineteen Ninety-three Trump biography, you do anything for me, wouldn't you Mattie Donald called out from the rear limousine? Yes, sir. Mr. Trump Calamar assured him would you kill for me? Mattie. Donald pressed. Yes, sir. Loyal. But how do you think Matti Kalam Mari might fair under questioning by members of congress live in front of the entire nation? Hard to say we can only go by what we've seen before. Because. Wow. Because. Well, not doing that than do. That's thing to in sixty seconds. Michael Colin painted a compelling portrait yesterday. The Trump organization is a criminal operation. The more characters we meet involve the company the more. They look like a bunch of Palliser in a bad crime movie. Consider his right hand, man and longtime bodyguard Keith Schiller seen here punching a protester in the face Schiller went on to become director of Oval Office operations in the White House because operations as a whole different kind of meaning for Mr. Trump. And then there's a COO the Trump organization, Matthew Matty Cullum, Mari who wants reportedly told the president he killed for him and allegedly terrorized. The family of a Trump employee was planning to reveal evidence of financial misconduct at the company. Mattie calamari meet now be called before congress is a witness to crimes at the Trump org. And we can only imagine how he'll do under the harsh spotlight. And another man has done a great job for me is mad. You calamari my chief operating officer that you. Donald, you know, I don't care for gen very much got to be honest with you. Because. Wow. Because. Not doing too good. However, why are you looking at me? Doing great, man. Who do you like you like to what do you like it the to mad which one all right Kelly? I think that. Well, okay. What he's trying to say. Is he likes Kelly? I read you people think this stuff is easy right here. It's not so easy. It's always interesting to see whom the president trust who he attacks in who he defends he called Hillary Clinton. A liar called the women many women who accused him of inappropriate sexual contact sexual assault liars. But Kim Jong Hoon runs the world's biggest gulag state that imprisoned American tourist auto wander and returned him with such extensive brain damage that he died soon after. In those prisons in those camps. You have a lot of people and some really bad things happen to auto some really really bad thing. Why are you on? He tells me he tells me that he didn't know about it. And I will take him at his word take him at his word because if you're a certain kind of powerful man, Donald Trump takes your word like Russian President, Vladimir Putin and his denial of US election interference. My people came to me, Dan Coats came to me and some others. They said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. Strong powerful denial. Donald Trump also defended failed Republican Senate candidate and accused child molester ROY Moore, ROY Moore denies it. That's all I can say he denies it. And by the way, he totally denies. He denies. I mean, ROY Moore denies it. And by the way, he gives a total denial. Not just any tonight a total denial of being a child molester. You also gave the benefit of the doubt to former White House staff secretary, rob porter who accused of abusing both of his ex wise. You also. As you probably know he says he's innocent. And I think you have to remember that he said I strongly yesterday that he's innocent Lovie set. It very strongly. He's probably president even defended prince Mohammad bin Salman of Saudi Arabia, whose henchmen brutally cut up and murdered. A Washington Post journalist inside a Saudi consulate I spoke with the crowd Prentice yesterday. And he strongly said that he had nothing to do with this. This was at a lower level. Those are the kind of men that Donald Trump trust those are the kind of people he puts his faith in which might not be surprising, given those who blindly give their own loyalty to Donald Trump. That's next. Florida Republican congressman Matt gates found his way into the hearing room for Michael cones explosive public testimony yesterday, which was a little odd because gates is not on the oversight committee. And then he told reporters who were there to ask questions. A remarkably bold move given that he's not on the committee and also given the gates appeared to explicitly threaten Cohen shortly before his testimony in what many took to be a blatant attempt to witness tampering gates did ultimately apologize for threat amid an investigation by the Florida state bar association for potentially violating professional conduct rules. But the apology may not have been very sincere today. Edward Isaac devere reported that President Trump called the congressman last night from Hanoi to talk about the cone testimony and the threats since rescinded gates me about cone. I was happy to do it for you. You just keep killing. It gates was heard telling him now gates is a particularly special flower. But nearly every Republican the house is to some degree version of Matt gaetz devoted notch Republican policies or a conservative. I doubt audiology. To Donald Trump above all else. Joining me now, joy Reid host of MSNBC's, AM, joy and MSNBC political analyst Jason Johnson politics editor at the root gates is gates of on guard. He's like. He's like like, everyone is trending in the direction of that case with interesting the house, absolutely Matt gaetz is basically Michael Cohen without the salary or with the paying until the irony is that they didn't get the irony. Well, Michael Cohen says I've been doing what y'all have been doing. I did it for ten years. They're literally still doing it Matt gaetz is the new Michael Cohen. I find I actually find this. I collagen you that bizarre. Because to me, the president seems like such a in some ways many like absurd ridiculous figure. He seems like a deeply not psychology kind of a broken person in certain ways like in a deep way. And this the certain kinds of person. The Matthew column is the world. Michael cones of the world, the Matt gaetz is the world's we're like that. I will do anything for you. Devin unions. There's there's tons of all they're they're all willing to be that guy. The guy who who would who would steal candy from the store they worked with the popular kids in high school because they think maybe then I'll be invited to the party. What Michael Cohen was saying the whole time is the party south that good end up in jail at the end of it. But but gates doesn't care and he's denied that he made that statement to the president. But if you didn't say it, then you'll say it at some point because that's what you're about. But this is a different theory. I think than theory often here, which is very popular, which is they're afraid of their base, and they have to do this. And so they're doing it. I think there are those Republicans. I thought what you saw mostly what you saw on the hearing yesterday from that Paul goes ours and your congressman hagan's, and you're and from Mark meadows. This is this is them. This is their beliefs. Saves. They are genuinely loyal to the president because they genuinely admire and the thing is is that Matt gaetz is not at risk for his base. That is a deep deep red district. They just running it. I've been talking with Florida sort of folks in the Florida political world quickly on the Republican side since this stuff happened, and it's very clear, you know, Matt gaetz is he's a true believer. He's drunk all the Kool-Aid gulped it down. But the reality is is these people who are let let's be clear some of them. Trump supporters have said what Matt gaetz doesn't understand that Michael Cohen understands if he were to lose reelection. He would be loser to Donald Trump. Donald Trump would cut him off. He will not be hired by Donald Trump. Donald Trump will consider him ain't nobody. And the wildest thing about this is that the memory hole that we will have into because right now CPAC is happening. I saw Dave. I don't feel the people being like, George W Bush does not exist at CPAC. Right. It's the guy. Never existed. People were like, oh, Flint a Republican president against abortion. And it's like and why because he ended essentially disgrace him Bruin. He was extremely unpopular. He was a bad president historical record. I think shows that pretty clearly, and George W Bush's gone. But there was a time when people running around ready to carve the guy's face into mount Rushmore, and you're going to see the same thing with Trump. And let's say he loses in twenty twenty. I mean, look, the they'll just find the new person, and they want to worship they'll say that. He was the greatest person he was taken out by by the liberals and all the other terrible people out there. But I think the other thing to remember is this. It's the fact that the president even though he's not loyal to you. And even though he won't protect you the sort of patina of shamelessness that he is presented as helped other people Jim Jordan, given his own skin giving some of the scandals great on the committee, but they are able to say this because I'm under the pro number of President Trump. And that's what these guys are. Jim Jordan was a wrestling coach Ohio State University where there was a doctor who repeatedly routinely and apparently systematically molested groped and sexually assaulted the wrestlers there. Multiple wrestlers have come forward on the record to say. There is no way that you did not know about this something we talked about the time Jordan, of course, has denied that. But yes for him to be out there watching the spirits. He's everybody. Everybody apparently couldn't see them when he was a coach is the Donald Trump has empowered a certain kind of DIGI f manhood a kind of right wing. I can do it me mnissed. Like, he's this is what people want to indulge in. He gives you the ultimate permission to indulge. It's like being in a gang for eight to use another mafia sorta I know a lot of people are connecting it to sort of the mob. This the same kind of thing. You know, this is dangerous. You know, this can actually get you killed. But there's something intoxicating about being in the bomb. Yeah. I think I think that's it. And I think the reason I think that has more explanatory particularly on what's going on the house side is like that's all it is really on the house. Yeah. I mean, more and more. They're they're remaindered people, right? And the people that are conflict. You know, there are people I think in the Senate for conflicted. I think there's a lot of people. I think there are still people in the house who behind closed doors and all record things. But but I think I think that people don't reckon with they like the genuinely like Donald Trump. They love him the admire him the keys great. They wanted to fend him. That's like not no one's extorting. It's Roger stone with Nixon now. But I promise. Yes. There will be Trump tattoos on the back. These guys by twenty one of trouble Malania anybody's administration, and you see it Lindsey Graham is the perfect example of this. Yeah, it is intoxicating. They don't care that they're aided by people. Now, I'm part of the team. Now, I'm one of the cool cat. We should say justna Masha stood out yesterday for not being like that. Who has some really good straight question? Our joy Reid. Jason johnson. Thanks for being with me that does it for all in. You can catch us every weeknight at eight o'clock on MSNBC. Don't forget to like us on Facebook. That's Facebook dot com slash all in with Chris. Hey, it's Chris Hayes from MSNBC. You don't every day? I come to the office, and we make television show in every day. I think to myself there's so much more. I want to talk about and so this is our podcast. It's called why is this happening and the whole idea behind it is to get to the root of the things that we see Lee out every day. They're driven by big ideas. Each week. I sit down with a person uniquely suited to explain why this is happening. New episodes of why is this happening every Tuesday? Listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
1576 Keith Miller & Dr. Greg Kerbel of Partnerships for Dentists on Alternative DSO Business Models : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
"Buying a sensor is madness. Large upfront investment too expensive for every op in pricey warranties with high deductibles subscribe instead with the jazz club. One thirty nine per month and just a one time. Sixteen forty nine sign up fee when using promo code madness a jazz imaging dot com. That's jazz imaging dot com. It is just a huge honor for me today to be podcasts. Interviewing both keith. Wilson miller the presidency yo partnerships for dennis p forty and dr gregory. Alan koerbel diaz keith. Wilson miller served as president and chief operating officer for partnership for dennis leading organizations growth and old eso operations. He has over twenty eight years of experience a season executive that has been successful leading high-growth platforms in both the retail and retail sectors. He fosters a servant leadership culture and is built performance teams wherever he has been prior to p for d. he led legacy our and our urgent care. As president of that dallas fort worth based startup healthcare business he tripled the size of the organization is first through strategic acquisitions and implemented the platform and programs that allow the group to continue growth as a regional and national presence. He spent thirteen years as a principal leader in the growth of dental one partners. A top ten national dental service organization starting with dental one in two thousand two and the supported supported a small number of practices. He served as executive vice president and chief operating officer as the company grew to north of the hundred and fifty locations in fourteen states during his tenure. He led many of the company's key functional departments real estate construction acquisitions. Hr training marketing and revenue recovery. He has a deep knowledge and understanding of the dso's face and is very excited to employ a revolutionary dentist friendly model with partnerships for us. He holds a bachelors and business ministration with a marketing major from the ohio state university and sitting next to him that bold beauty. Dr gregory alan koerbel. Dds chief clinical officer for partnerships for data's and from the north texas family and cosmetic dentistry in garland texas Is a highly acclaimed family and cosmic. Dennis here are just some of the words. He has received voted a super dennis for eight years neuro by his peers in texas monthly magazine from twenty seven to eighteen named time magazine's best doctors and dentists distinguished as the nineteen ninety seven health occupations career training employer of the year since opening his dallas area dental office over twenty six years ago. He's been serving. Patients in garland plano mosquito and i lead my four. My six grandchildren live in vivo. And it didn't make the less. I'm not gonna read all the other towns. Were granted live. Dr kerbala received his bachelor of science from baylor university in waco eight then his doctor dental surgery and ninety one from baylor since ninety eight he has mentioned senior dental students as part of the preceptory program at his alma mater and as an adjunct clinical professor while completing his doctor dental surgery he received outstanding senior dental student award and the academy of general dentistry senior student award Gentlemen thank you so much for coming on the show today. How guys doing the honors all my now. Great we've met before we did back in nineteen ninety one. I think you graduated eighty seven. Or so i ninety one at assigned hang shingle out. New little to nothing about the business of ministry. Saw course it was being done by the name of our friend and he was doing the business dentistry and as well. He's got no more than i do. He's or five years. I went to this lecture with a guy with a lot of hair Who is really excited about. Dentistry was the only contain. You as the mike you're wearing around your neck and it was amazing. That was really really smart. Practical way of looking at dentistry from a business standpoint. Which is where i come from and so i didn't know anything about medicine knew about business. the business of dentistry. And i would tell you that that day ask seminar that i spent really changed my perception of the way to go because i had looked at other things i was thinking about on shingle out and they had all said. Label of patient is abc patient. You don't treat the you get rid of them treat they as and you know what you president fifty thousand dollar tree plans and back in nineteen ninety one that sounded to me as a brand new dental student like the most amount of money i've earned my life in so people weren't saying yes in this job of the name of france. What here's how you ought to do it. If you want to be successful. And i'll tell you truly that set the tone for everything that followed it. Gobbled up your i think six thousand copies or so the business and industry book out probably read it no less than twenty times through starting to listen to people like raja lavigne rick kushner. Hodges you know the names all of those guys devoured all the newsletters but truly a my privilege for being here with you today in getting be part of your show. Thanks and for that and for all your success you've done really well Thanks for the kind words van you you said you knew business not visit dentistry. Where where did you learn your business from. What were you coming so my dad was an architect so he did family a construction commercial construction. I was supposed to be an architect and builder. So i'm from you know. Twelve dollars to twenty five. I was absolutely the construction world. As i was going to school in the same time. So didn't decided that was not for me. I always wanted to be a dentist from fourth grade. I knew it. That's what i wanted to do in so follow my dreams. I walked away from the other knew nothing about medicine and industry. I knew a lot about businessworld. This pandemic really has changed the branding for. Dso's i mean you know. I got to school and eighty seven. There's always been bad guy in eighty seven. It was the new kappa tation insurance and and again the insurance for jerking our chain where they sold us. That we're paying you twenty dollars a month per person on average But we think you might be incentivized to do a crown ammo od. So what we wanna do is transfer the money to you and then you make. The decision should be monday but then when they transferred the money it was eleven dollars for persons like well. We'll we'll we'll what what happened to that other The rest of that money. It's always been a game so that was the bad guy But i remember when. I set up my dental office eighty seven. I went in a retail location. Everybody else back. Then that was three. Decades ago was in medical dental buildings and You know the dental society didn't like it. I took a full page ad in the yellow pages and the older dennis were all their life prostate. Cancer where you go to a dentist next a safe way out of the yellow pages but and then and then the next guy on the on the block was dso's and you. And i are old enough to realize it. The first round of this was For lazaros orthodox that imploded. There is a dozen Nasdaq and no one has touched him. Sense they kinda had a falling from grace with wall street. They got traded two of them in australia and one of them in singapore Podcast those founders But you know it's The dsl was the bad guy until you're hit by a global pandemic and then it's the god factor. I mean at the end of the day. God just my tool this time this all the time. I said you know. God is just the admission that there's something bigger than you are. I mean. I don't think the center of the universe is this bald irish guy in phoenix. And and when you're hit by global pandemic dentists damn their safety in numbers. I'd rather be part of a herd and when you looked at the ada saying oh. I can't ever say mark all just going. Gonna start calling marco is what is your check or something. Something crazy But margo was showing when he was showing that after we were closed down from saint patrick's day to cinco de mayo inside of twelve. That's sixteen percent. The dental industry had contracted thirty percent. Who was the first ones to get back to their pre covid numbers. Zalmai dsl buddies. Rick kirshner that you mentioned earlier comfort dental as three hundred locations He finished last year. The best series ever had and some individual operators can do that. But i really think the brand is changed and i predicted it was going to be different just from demographic shift when you go from a dental profession. That's all male bald guys to now have two classes women and has hair. A change in demographics always has some change. And i got friends out here. That are single. Mothers that have been with mike pacific for ten years and they just relish the fact that they can be part of a group. They can be a fulltime mom and raiser kid but still be a professional dennis and and have leadership roles so Do you sense that the dso image was really cleaned off and re package during this pandemic. Well i. I think that had a lot to do that. I know i know. I heard universally our arts. Thank goodness we are with you when this all happened. And you know the amount of that Find me and you know back in the art of melis source from all over the united states that know make sure we had an ninety five masks gowns of the shields and everything else the the loans had again hobby work with all the vendors their money. You don't have any money. So you know i think it i start with you. Know what people think that are whizzing. When i that all of our our really salt thankful that they had partnered winning as an industry. I think it made everyone signs. That wasn't an instructs. That back and say okay you know is this can happen. Should i be looking at different alternatives. Gone for no. Is it time artery. Somebody's at time to think about something different because a lot of doctors about the route of course of what they're doing but they just they. They're running their business. They're reliving lives and they never really but signs and be able to get down outs. I have the course here and we saw a tremendous not an older doctors decided. Hey i don't. I don't wanna deal out so. We saw a lot of smaller practices. Doing three hours work practices slows down. Just go out of business. Because they didn't want to restore like having type of issues nervous journal. So i think it's changed a bit I i've always had obviously a very ostad. I look about indeed. So i think that's a lot of there's always a lot of as he negativity out there unsung baggins. That may happen. But i think all in all the concept is you know where medicine when many many years ago and everything is just starting out over. You know. i it's obvious when when you look at 'em business for the last two hundred years fronts. I'm you know since. I wrote adam. Smith's the wealth of nations to the last two centuries at business models just slowly evolve. I mean retails involving for a solid two hundred years just from new york city to today. I don't think the final business model obviously is developed for dentistry. But i do look at law firms and consulting groups that started this journey several decades before Dentists did and i think they They have some really unique business models and sounds like your do the same thing that you started with a business model for s. o. with you know the dental one partners and the emergency room set up now onto partnerships for dentist. You do you think this evolution is going to be significant yet. I really do and say you know. I think i think there's around fourteen hundred says today so it's a space where you know. There's a lot of people getting into for various reasons but You know when i was with done won all those years we got. It was like petri dish. Because you know when i started in two thousand two. The industry is very raw and everyone was learning and everyone was small at that time and trying to grow really fast. We got a chance to learn a lot. Got chancellor what works. What doesn't work you know what is positive with our clinician partners and what wasn't There's different models of people employ with the you know high hands on dso's to very low hands on the two partnerships to employ models to hybrid that. So there there's a lot you know that at least me personally got to figure out throughout all those years doing acquisitions versus to know those and so when we started partnership for denniston ardern up with dr curb all that. We really want to make this something. That was unique and that we could have something that stood out amongst all. Does you know even though we're not the the harland's of the world or the aspen that we thought that we could brand our own little niche in this thing just by being different on the things that we think that matter the most to clinicians and is number one being partnerships in having really fruitful partnership. We don't do things. We don't come in into slap down a manual. We don't change the name of the practice. We don't do anything like that that really that we work with our partners on you know. What can we help you with. And you know these businesses. It's all about in order to get loans and continue to grow and do all those things. It's important that you have What i would call is a good value proposition. So if you join with a dso how are they going to help. Make the visits more valuable in you know. I think that we really done a great job on the three. Carry a key expense areas in any business or any dental businesses the labor lab and supplies. And so we've just had can tastic partnerships in both the supplies and lab areas where we typically sadness forty to fifty percent in in we really focus on the high quality. So we're using high quality supplies and high quality lab supplier. So you know the day one. Someone joins our network that they're seeing an increase in their earnings right away and We we do a little scorecard for ourselves to say how did we do. For each affiliation. And on average we've increased the earnings or the eba for our partners by forty eight percent in the first year and we increase revenue by eighty percents. So those are things that i think. We're really proud of. We spent a lot of I guess resources and energy on operations on having great operational people to help these partners be able to achieve what they wanted chief in their practice. And i think that's the evolution of of not being a dea so that you gotta do all my way or the highway which i think is the way has started a two being more like. How can we help. And and that's where we're focused on is you know we're we're looking to partner with great. Dennis already have great practices and we want to say. How can we help you take it to the next level and helped achieve financial success that you had hoped for in the past well great. I got a follow up question for you. You asked me an email on saturday. April tenth two thousand four at one thirty one pm about soft and practice vantage software. You and i are so old that we used to use soft soft but what practice management software are you able to do this with a off. The store shelves software like detrick or eagle software. Open dental or something proprietary or do you add layers out. How do you do it from a practice management software. Yes a great question. Because one of the things that as you and i know is a core or vital to our operations is using for practice management system So we come in. We like to truly say invisible to the patients is so when we come in as partners with dennis. We'd team up. We want to become another team member. So we don't want to throw out what they have as long as we can work with it in it's up-to-date to get them what they need so our big three fingers. Unquestionably open dental. We love open and the regional of is really simple as that. It's open so. I don't have any limitations. On what technology i think with. It's very seamless in its integration and is very easy for our operators at our practices to know so they already have that. We're good. eagle were great in districts for great so Open certainly the easiest of the three for us to work with soft as you know and others are so proprietary that we want to add different sensors different technology. It really makes it more difficult. Only likewise are are partnering with our with our doctors with our team so we don't do anything without them wanting to do it as well. So we have a robust practice management system that plunged into the existing software which allows us to help guide and sees everything at a very high level. Wigan go into a very deep level they tell us what we're having some issues in hygiene arena. How we juice that we can use our software. That's on the back end. I think interviewed jarvis And they're amazing software company that comes in behind and allows us to apply into their existing software as we can draw the data out so that we can have those. You know the return that they're trying to hit by those. Kpi's as key performance indicators. For each practice the great question. And i would say that was one of the fundamental decisions that we made starring nia. So do we wanna go with districts enterprise or do something that all practices will be the same but just just one of my learnings from the early years is when you go into new affiliate with a practice in dentist in one of the first things you wanna to do is change. Their software is just not a good taste. Leaves their mouth and all the team members hated. You know everyone takes a long time to adjust to your questions. We'll go down because the air are or don't come over smoothly so it's a real negative so that was the from day one. We had to make the decision on. Do we want to have one software or do we want to find a partner like jarvis can be able to go into all the practices that we affiliate in disrupt their world. So you know the jarvis that we've had has been amazing. It's just been a huge parker said truly. I think we could be where we are today without the partnership. We've had them which you know when you talk about you know you said that there's how fourteen hundred. Dso's i mean It's i can my my nomenclatures. You know you start as an owner operator solo practicing and there's one hundred and sixty hours a week. You only wanna work thirty two facilities close down. Eighty one percent of non not being us So you've got an associates. Now your group practice and then it just grew practice to more than one location and where you want to draw the line and say it's no longer a group practice with three locations in the dsl. I don't really know the nomenclature on that fourteen hundred. Dso's but it's kind of the same journey. But what i have noticed. Is that the first learner management when you go to any town of two hundred and fifty thousand and some dennis on the south side and he says you know what facebook and google just drained all the ad dollars at of radio and television and billboards and it all went digital and companies. I mean you can buy a thirty minute. Infomercial spot on a television station for a hundred bucks. I mean it's just amazing. So they go from one office. It will say well. Let's go north south east west and then we get up one layer. We'll have someone president like keys. We'll have hr counting marketing. And my god. They just crush it. I mean they crush it. Would i still don't understand. And i think that maybe the reason they're not publicly traded yet snapchat is go figure that is that second layer management from another state who who buys that layer and then they need to take fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen percent for their learn. It's like you're talking about labor late lab labor supplies home. I lab and supplies is even seventeen percent. So if i join one of these other diaz that had to fund a another headquarter lehrer. I mean if i got down to a lab and supplies it would even make sense so that first layer i think of. Dso's can stay mean and lean and flat on layers They can really add value. So do you agree with what i just said. And why do you think none of these fourteen. Hundreds are on nasdaq but snapchat is which we all know what snapchat was it was so young. Kids can take a nudie picture and tax it to someone in it disappears after they look at it. How can that go public. But not aspen dental or something. Would you think he's well. I do think so. You know. there's a. There's been a few that i've tried going public over the years and i always the industry thought i've had is that. Is you live by quarter when you're public company right. So that means you have to have consistent revenue you have to always hit your revenues. You've gotta find a way. And i've worked in publicly traded companies. It's beating and you have to make a lot of short term decisions. It's very argument long term decisions because you're really bound the quarterly results. And as we know as you know you'd have to have some bit girth with an amount of practices in amount of providers to be traded company. That you know if if something happens with a doctor or a couple of doctors or something happens with practices your revenue. Streams can change pretty dramatically. And i think that instability in In just the world is not favored in that steps. Always been my take what i've heard from others in. The business is just that it says quarterly results that you know the the fact that people are using their hands to great revenues in his hands disappear. Something happens to them. Significantly could change revenue. So i think that's it and then also the fact that private equity has really paid well so it's very costly to public as well and it's very costly to maintain a public company. So if you have private equity paying you know twelve thirteen fourteen. Fifteen times for organizations in doesn't really give good Compelling reason on why you want to take your company public so those are just my my perspective on. I noticed that when things start getting crazy. Um the narratives change Our nobel prize. When he economists from mit just wrote a book called narratives and the the advantage of being old. I mean i turn fifty nine this year besides just like diabetes and rich all dysfunction and things like that the biggest advantage is that you you see all these rodeos before i mean. I graduated high school in the eighty crash. Guardrails eighty seven than the two thousand and two thousand eight but now you see the narrative change like the biggest assets will ever buy a house. And they're saying well you know they're asking to fifty but you'd better bid to seventy five or you're not gonna get it you're gonna bid up the price of the most expensive thing that you've ever bought in your life price ratios. I mean this goes back. Hundreds of years indentured servants. I'm irish descendants and they come from the irish dyas foru- if they couldn't afford a ride someone will give them a free right and they'd be ventured servant for seven years and warren buffett taught me in a creighton in omaha in one thousand nine hundred eighty and business class at You know six to eight times earnings about the range. And now if you now tesla's trading at fifteen hundred times earnings i mean if you would have bought tesla at the fold the roman empire you just would have got your money back today. It just seems. Insane valuations Do you think the And now they're changing arif's of buying officers higher ause and things like that. Do you think that were getting ready. For the fifth contraction that i've lived through since since icicle he added. I mean it's really hard to tell in. I know that you've you've seen the whole story. Play out here that that one of the reasons dentistry is so attractive to investors. It's consistent right. It's it's heavy cash flow. You got a lot of cash coming in but over time. It's been remarkably consistent in. It's been all good right. So if you look at the growth rate of dentistry from the very beginning today it's it's it's straight up you know it's an upper angle and even in the years that we have you know the two thousand two thousand eight. It's just a blip is just a like a small blurb. It really hasn't done anything. So you know. I think the dentistry is and as population grows and you always have the the ratios with populations the amount of dentists that are available competing things going on with the different services but i think that the dental industry even if we did at signed type of financial contraction in the total markets that would continue to farewell and and. I think that goes to your point that you made earlier with what happened with covid. You know when all that hit we were all scratching their heads. Say you know what's going to happen to our world was can happen to this business. What's going to happen. Because people can be afraid to come into their house they gonna be afraid to open their mouth in a clinical environment. What what will happen. And i think because it is such a necessary thing to do to go to the dentist to stay healthy. That is proven. That's why you know. Most everyone has gotten back on their feet and and like you said getting back to even better than they were a pre pandemic. And i do think being part of an organization and having a team that can help practices. Get back on their feet quickly. When the vince like that happens very important you know really looking at re care. So i think the whole industry got surprised. I think in october. Luckily we weren't you know y- dental practices Looked at to affiliate with like october was a disaster. Because you know they have april that no one showed up. It's all that re care. That was supposed to be about six months later october. No one took care of that and so when when they went into the mother over there was no hygiene and so we. We saw a lot of practices forty fifty sixty percent down. I guess most of the says including ourselves. We had already thought ahead of that in june. And we're already making sure the patients that were supposed to be in april. Were getting back in. And then we're feeling the october buckets that we had a smooth transition. So with all that being said i'm going back to question that even if there is some sort of economic contraction i i do think the dental world is still sending employs to be a strong marketplace. Yeah i mean that famous quote when when you have a toothache you don't care about all the people in china you just wanna get that. I'm you have you have a history with Emergency rooms with yarn urgent care. And we keep being told in dentistry. That emergency room visits eight and a half percent. I'm or dont'a janiking origin. It was a big source of data when they were closing down dental offices to let them know that okay. Now you're going to have even more two things at the emergency room and we're doctors and we've been ready for this since hiv back in the eighties and I think it was a big mistake to close down dental offices when the overloading the hospitals. But what understand. I if i was going to be a. So i mean. I think i would be at every. How many oh dont'a genyk origin to thanks to have every day in your hospital. And why do you think that eight. And a half percent of emergency room visits in arizona or dont'a genyk origin. Why how was dentistry failing The the citizens of arizona. To where you have to go to the emergency room. That can't do a root canal. Hospitals are weird. They can remove a brain tumor. They can do a bypass. It can remove your gallbladder but it's a tooth. They just look at it like a deer in headlights. What does that say about how we're meeting the needs of the people vs. I'll let the doctor is at my. My whole thing is mostly convenience right so still dentistry. Hasn't hit the map of being open convenient hours for patients so a lot of these emergencies happen after hours happened on the weekends when dentists are open so they typically call her dentist you know they they get a voicemail or whatever and then they hit to them it's either that or the second thing is it's just a a level of the population never goes to the dentist so they don't even know they don't even know any better that if they're paying a head to were they always go. Which is you're in subaru. The those too often. I have on that and you could share. What your boxer. Yeah that. I really believe that. You're when you're opening. Statements was ryan in that. We spend too much of our time with our offices. Nervous civilities sitting absolutely empty while the general public is screaming. Hey we would like to get in and yet. We don't provide hours that were convenient back in the original days. You can get to a bank when you want to get to a bank. They were closed. As saying like all the time and then all of a sudden all the banks started contracting and banks over why started opening up in a lengthening their hours and suddenly saw increase in profits. Well is because the finally started taking care of the patron a windy start taking care of the patients in so by doing that we late in our hours. We offer more convenient times. We offer time through lunch at evening hours early morning hours. I know that in my private practice. What i found is you can get a seven o'clock appointment to save your life so we have noticed six forty five. We get early year in earlier because the need was there in the mail. Was there for later hours. So i believe as as you know healthcare practitioners the more we serve the needs of the patient. The more the patient is going to get their needs serbs and we're going to be more available and we are going to be busier. Just become the one that everybody knows goto to in town rather than the one. That's closed in just to go back to the company that i was Working with a vaccine that they're they're model was so unique because it was urging carey. Andy are on one building. So you talk about convenience that it basically triage a patient for if you had something that was an emerging care or is it was something that was needed for emergency room so they only build according to the level of severity. Which is the ultimate customer service. A customer so confused about. What does my insurance cover. What where who takes venture. Where can i go and i think ought to be really good at mercy. Rooms have this huge sticker shock. They go to get a stitch there in its thirty five hundred dollars to go there so you know. I think a lot has to this convenience and and really finding a business models that can match the convenience factor with you know what the what the patients are. Wanting and needing i notice that all three publicly traded companies dentistry Have the same. Our seven two seven seven days a week and all three of those dental. Ceos told me that that that covers emergency. You really don't have an emergency at eight. Pm at night they can't make it till seven in the morning Other retail things. That aren't even close like you notice what this pandemic that now i. Everybody's getting all this food delivered. I mean who knew that you know being able to make and deliver a pizza. You could make more money than being a dentist during a pandemic but but when you're ordering online everything you order online or give your credit card so you can see the price. I mean dentistry. Not only does not have seventy seven seventy s week and almost every town They also don't have any price transparency. You couldn't find the price of filling or crown or root canal on any dental website in america. So they just don't follow any retail stuff. What do you think price. Transparency has not come to dentistry yet. It i i think it ought to do with the insurance companies. I mean i. I can tell you as a purchaser of dental practices when you get into the software and you see the amount of mistakes that are made you know with transactions like the dentists themselves and their staffs. Don't completely understand how to work with the insurance company so when when when the business itself can't completely out with their pricing is you know. Hey i'm gonna put in for these. Three procedures might get three of them. I get downgraded in three of them might not you know you just don't know it's hard quota price when you're really you're at the behest of these insurance so that's why i think that it doesn't work now. It could work. I guess if you're she for servants in your having your own fees and just say here's my fee and this is what you'll bay and it won't goes her insurance company and you could file separate with your insurance company. But as we know that must all practices nowadays are some sort component with a ppo or medicaid. Now do dental. Insurance companies were closer together with us and you represent many offices as opposed to an owner operator of one location. I mean can you get the attention of these dental insurance. Ceo's to work with you. Or you know. I wish that was the case. I would say back in two thousand five indefinitely like we had a lot of because there are still like muscled bracket says where fee for service so as we are companies started and it was fee for service in we switched at two thousand five to ppo and so there wasn't a lot of providers so back then they would say. Oh yes you know. If you bring fifty offices to metlife than we'll give you these fees in your zip codes but nowadays Just obliteration everyone's on. Ppo's it's very hard to get their attention. And i would say the cases that you can make are when you're in rural areas aren't many providers that you have an opportunity but if you're in metro areas like dallas fort worth how shot. It's you're just really at the you know that can call a what the shots that are calling. Yeah it's amazing. You know the united states courting to marco ada The check as one hundred ninety nine thousand four hundred eighty six us. I'm seeing i think. I we are addresses for actual officers is one hundred fifty thousand and when you figure that there's one hundred and fifty thousand dental offices and they're all closed eighty one percent of the week. We shouldn't have build a single dental office for the next three decades. If someone had uber dental app where you know you're a dentist. And you gotta pay patient. And then you find a an opera tori and you go there on. That's the the the built the under utilization of that facility is unbelievable. So you're saying you're biz model. You're you don't roll out to novo's like mcdonald's they're all cookie cutters atkins are all could get. You're more of a roll up so going out there and you're looking for dentists that raise your hand and say i want to be a part of a group and then you let them keep their name location and all that kind of stuff. Yeah it's so so one of the things that It was a little different. We look for big successful practices so so most. All of our practices are north of one. Point eight million to doctors In i think the big thing that we really look at is how can we help this business. How can we help. Dr increase his business but a lot of doctors. They don't realize until it's too late like when they decided. Now i wanna sell my practice. Said there are on the downside of their profitability in earnings. So you know. It's really trying to educate doctors. Say you know. Look to partner when you're doing the best that you've done not you're getting tired and you're ready to get out of dentistry because your numbers have dropped. So we like to catch Yes doctors in their prime when they're really doing a fantastic job. We paid very well for these practices and then as a partnership in in our particular model we do something. That's a little different arts. Prominent a great value proposition compared to most says that we allow the dentist to participate on any type of recapitalization that we do so why why is fourteen hundred esso's because typically combine dental practice from four times four and a half five times earnings in rolling up and you have very successful organization where you have a good track record and can grow. Revenues grow profitability in that you can provide practices and showed good growth in those practices that you could get anywhere from twelve thirteen. Fourteen fifteen times so There's a big triage. They're in for our doctors a partner with us that they have opportunity if we do a recapitalization to make that type of earnings on their equity that they own the practice which is a the type of money that they couldn't ever really get it by selling the actresses are doing this on their own so we really feel like it's a win win in that you know when we put the company together you know one of my learnings from the past is like you know. I don't really like the employees model so to speak. Because i don't think the dentist can win big enough and you know when we put together. This company's partners purchaser dennis. We wanted a dentist to be able to win the at the same level as we went and we felt very equitable and then they would be something. That'd be very attractive to a great. Dennis sewer have great practices and are doing very well. Why would you ever want to join somebody. But we're giving them a reason why you'd want to be a part of this or yeah i think for doctors and you. Can you know this this last ceiling that we all hit. Will we go. Look we've done everything within our means. We tried everything to grow a bigger or to fix these problems. And sometimes you just need somebody walk alongside of you to point out some blind spots that you may have that you didn't know how to fix or didn't even know that you really had it all so we're able to walk along side of these great practices and elevate their game so it takes a person willing to say. Look i want to partner with you. I won't eat walk alongside me to help me. And so then that dr wins in the front. They win in the middle and they win at the end so it becomes a three way great event for them and frankly my practice That's what happened to me. So after my accident I needed to find somebody to partner alongside of my practice. Who could bring my associate in and make him an owner And that had allowed people allow that to happen by tailoring a perfect transition plan for both myself and for my associate to become a partner with p. date. That's huge so. Not only am at ben chief officer for this literally. I always the beginning of that process of bringing in doctors as ours and that relationship value is huge huge. So you said that you recommend that doctors sal in their prime on not when they're also your prime and That's stressful for me. Because i'm fifty eight Which is not a prime number but fifty nine is a prime number and then my next number sixty one sixty seven seventy one. So there's only twenty five prime members during one hundred But we why do you think doctors start contracting what why. Why are some fifty eight-year-old. Dennis still growing and expanding and why are some contracting. And what's the low hanging fruit that separates at heard. August two cents and greg from the clashes. I from what i've seen it. Just you know. Dentistry is a taxing business. As you both know i mean. It's very physically demanding. It's mentally demanding. You have not only that. You're doing this microsurgery in this. Little tiny hole was very little light. But you also human body. That's moving and feeling pain and all that so. That's very taxing on the individual in this years and years of doing that and then having deal staff dealing with who stealing from me this week and who's quitting on me and now i don't have a state and so the phone and are they really answering the phone early on their cell phones that all of those things just draining and so you know in the in the twilight of the doctors career that what we have seen passes just gets tired and nina slows. Down doesn't do main big procedures starts to refer out more than and so what happens to the business from where they were in their prime is a business starts declining and then when they get to the point where like okay. I'm ready to retire. They may have left twenty five to fifty percent of where they were on the table and so they're selling their practice at a low instead of selling it at a high. So that's my two cents in africa. Will you get your two cents. I think you'd always kinda counter intuitive you. You kind of think look when i do. My best is when ought to keep doing it. and yet we're saying to you. Look when you're doing. your best. Is that frankly the best time to look at transitioning out. I think much like kids. You know you're i kid. You took four thousand pictures of them you know. Every time they move. You took a picture in your energy and you're excited and yet another cat and you took about two thousand pictures in the last kid says man did. I even have a birth. You know 'cause you you didn't get cam round. And i think it's much like that. We know we start out early. On when i hung my shingle out. Had zero patient in first person called at one hundred percent growth in one day on mike. I've got a patient on chart now. I'm excited i was pumped juice. Then suddenly when you see thirty thirty five patients come in today. You know that one does it same as important to now you go thirty years deep into this and you're just tired and outside interests come in. You're gets off the ball in your practice starts waning. And i think candidly a lot of doctors. Don't even know that they're back. This is waned ancient. And they think it's in the prime in upping and yet it's actually going down there like. Hey look. I did your thousand more than i did last year. I'm doing okay. But they didn't say that you know. Guess what zillion percent of your patients went out. the back. Door and zillion percent of your patients came in the front and your net equal. Well that's actually going backwards. So we're able to begin to illuminate these things doctors. And i believe that it's just an energy factor and it's a factor. You know you get tired as you think. Things are going well and you might take your eyes off the ball every everybody has as much energy as you howard so you poke people actually slow down and when they do unfortunately doesn't pack the practice. So do you do you see what what is the We're talking about a prime number would is the What does everybody have in common. That are mostly sahlin to. Dso's i get it when they're coming out of school and they they want a job. I mean when we were little that was only going to be brought to you by the army. The navy the air force. The marine corps was through the navy Indian public health Or you could go back and having associated job with your family. Dennis or whatever but what i love most about the. Dso's is You know my the regular dentist He's using his office thirty two percent of the week and after that everybody's going the emergency room when he does. He's not entrepreneur enough to say my. Gosh if if this person is this kid just got one to one root canal. Bolom crown twenty five hundred dollars. If you did that with one employee i mean how do you not make money in a free land building dental office you know. But they're just not interesting because they're they're not hungry enough. Which means dentistry is so real lucrative When you sit there and little kids wanting your job. I get that old man Wanting to sell. I mean never let your money get too far from cash. The greatest liquidity exit in dentistry right now is just Selling your practice to a ds. Oh who else is a prime candidate or using besides the two obvious old selling young. I need a job. Who's looking to be part of the dso. Well we call it. We was termed. This and i don't often other people used know we've used it for years. It's called legacy transition plan and so it it's really dentists that are in their late forties. Mid-fifties you know they're like okay. When am i. How am i gonna ever get out. When am i gonna get out you know. Do i have to do the same thing over. And over for the next fifteen years by myself and so it's again it's where whether at their prime and thinking about okay. How do i do this. And how can i get important with someone that will help me. You know even ease my way out of here. I wanna go down to two days. A week they'll help me get another provider urine. Keep the practice open. I'll still owner. So i'm still gonna get you know a part of the profit in and be able to have the upsides of ownership so to me. That's that's all about kind of a legacy transition on having a good plan before you're forced to have a plan it's like pre planning you know a little bit just staying ahead the curve rather than next thing you know. I got to sell. Because i've got sick or something like that. So your name is partnership for dentists but then the acronym is p four d. Thought about doing part in the words partnership letter. Four for dennis or you. Just you liked it the way. It is partnership four. Dennis with before. But when you're a legacy transition i think it's I think it's obvious that people death very scary very frightening they just don't like to think about it and i had this problem with dennis whole time where someone will drop dead in the wife's calling saying what do i do. And they're like people like well. Why didn't they have a will. I'm like dude aretha. Franklin and princeton have a will. I mean some of the i mean. How can you have a jet in minnesota and be prints and not a will and these. Dennis say i say well. What is your transition plan to go on. I don't need a transition last like oh so you haven't heard about death yet. We'll hear sit out. I gotta tell you something. You're not gonna live forever. You have to have an exit strategy and you have to have a transition eventually. We call it at my office. The mack truck syndrome where i tell every single employee especially the legacy employees That are so vitally important. I've been here twenty years. I look i know you don't like to think about getting old and dying of cancer and all that. But you could get t boned by a mack truck on the way to work today. And if you get t boned. Thirty six thousand americans die on the roads each year. I don't want to try to figure out what the hell you're doing. I want bind binder so that the next person going there and sit down for a day and just know everything you're doing and These dentist i swear to god when they drop dead and they don't i mean i i've been through it didn't have a will the they have a dental office. Have kids you have to talk about these ugly things you have to have a transition plan you have to have a will you have to have all these things but when do you think that a dennis should really start thinking about their transition plan. I really think that it should be in their mid. To late forties is ever too young Unfortunately waited. We had a a situation that we dealt with a few months back in which A dentist pass away very unexpectedly and very much to what you just said. You didn't have anything in place in a really really sad situation because because of the grieving that went on the practice kind of just sat there and nothing happened in the practice to three months and then the widow you know came to us and said i need your help. How can you help in doubt point as you know if you leave a practice for three months. It's it's not the same value as it was so you know it wasn't even something. It was a smaller practice. We weren't interested but we tried to really help to help her find a buyer just just a helper yet something. But she had to take such a significant discount on on the practice itself in the building because she was in no-man's-land and there was no plan behind it. So you're exactly right like you know it's never too young to think about your future and you know a lot of that that we talked to that that they want to enjoy life at some point and they know they wanna be able to do other things. They want to be able to spend time with their family and do extra curricular activities. I don't want to be a slave to the chair for into their mid seventies. So they they want to do that. So the mid mid forties. I think is a great time to start thinking about. That is as long as you have something good established. If you're still trying to get something established. I think he just got to keep putting your nose to the grindstone and do that but if you have a great practice and multiple providers and financial. You're doing real well. That's really when you should think about how you know a good plan. Not not planning when things are bad. I think you know you look at it. And good businesses wanna mitigate risk right in so when you're young popular coming straight out of bill school the ada's immediately they're saying. Hey you buy life insurance right in your twenty five or twenty six you need to buy disability insurance in your twenty five and twenty six. You think i'll never need that. I don't really and yet they're strongly encouraging it and what we're doing with the transition plan is we're taking some of that risk off the table and what a great great way to sleep at night knowing that you've already solidified what's going to happen and you don't have to worry about tomorrow's accident by like encountered For me when you're you're denison the next day you've got a broken neck literally that's a life altering event that none of us will ever happen but yet it does and i experienced it firsthand so for me. I really think it's a labor of love to let these guys know of. Hey there is an opportunity or you can keep your partnership you can stay in a relationship you can keep your practice and at the same time have a legacy program already intact. I think this story. The doctrine herbals told the perfect example. He never expected a life altering event would happen. And you know serendipitous lee you know god bless that that we came together right at the right time that we could actually help each other both out because after i met him i wanted to be on my team and he was going through a huge live event and i think you know god put us together for for good reasons to be able to help us both out to put us where we are today absolutely. It's been a blessing for both. I think to those that we serve That's that's beautiful so you want to buy you like two doctor. Practice collecting over one point. Eight million a year. I'm assuming because you know like in our practice when one doctor falls down and tears a rotary cough. The other one can step up. Is that for the law of unintended consequences. I mean to doctor so something happens to one. Someone else can step it up until someone gets better. Is that why you like to. We think the the risk profile is much better for larger practices. And if you look at it with one doctor practice if something does happen to that doctor in a in could be you know. An injury could be somebody. If they decide to leave it could be someone gets pregnant. You're out of business. You know you don't you're not seeing patients in. That's that's that becomes very risky at times. So we just We really tell ourselves to be a very good partner with these big practices and also with our cost savings Traditionally the bigger practices that are very profitable that a lot of times the expenses There's a lot of opportunity with the expenses. So if you know. If we're barring where the practice in its due in two million dollars and they're loud and supplies together our eighteen percents in using using our preferred vendors. We can get down to apor said you know. That's significant dollars to the bottom line for the doctor partner. So we've just now it's a very good match for us you know. There's a lot of diaz that have all solo practices. I don't begrudge that. I just think for us. The best matches is bigger practices. That have a lot of good upside to. It added that we also like the have at least seven opera tories because our growth potential so high that we don't want them to have immediately capital expense. That hey look where a year later and you'd literally capped out on the amount of space. We've maxed out your amount of hours. We're going to have to build something new something so we like. The facility has seven offering tories and more which allows us to be able to do a more assisted. Hi jean A lot of those types of concepts. So are there any other shared secrets that that you find among your dentist added just more. Broadly like some people really believe that if you switched to scanning overtaken emperor gum impression that you can save fifteen dollars on a case because you don't have shipping doesn't take Three days Or their things like that where you try to get the dentist synchronize to be faster easier. Higher quality lower cost more efficient smaller etc yet. I mean absolutely. We are so huge systems so for us ally systems all the way throughout the organization. We wanna lesson wasted materials. Late lesson wasted motion. You know equipped auditory. So we're able to do anything in any opera tori. You know equip your office in other words for success but but don't waste dollars on products in equipment. You won't need us or won't improve patient care but don't ever short your doctor what he does need to do what he does. You know root canal build up in a crown cheeseburger fries and a coke. A you know. I'll never forget that. Nineteen ninety one and people in the room. Kind of like he is so you know like he said a curse word in the middle of a sermon. You know and i looked over to the guy next to me. I said he just exactly explained what we do. We do a built up roof now the crown but the real audi is that we build it. We do a root canal than we wait a wait and then we do a build up wait. Let me do in crown. Because that said he just made the entire thing. Efficient to root canal built the ground cheeseburger coke. And what he did is he saying. The patient three injections three appointments and three missed going to work and now we're doing it all on an hour half as and that's that's the way we should do. So everything we do of. Howard is systems Assistant leaves an opportunity to get. Anything should never happen. You take into the opportunity what you need it should be. There should never leave. And so you know unless they need to use the restroom or handle mercy call out expect. Those two hands are gonna be there the entire time we get the process done. So yes issue. And i would say it's important clinically autonomy for us like we. We are a service organization like dr curls. Amazing resource for our partners in nba raising need but unit truly all clinical decisions are made by the partners themselves in the practices. We just try to support the things that they need help with. And if may be you know. We have some practices that use sarah's we have some practices that have digital scanners. We have some that have terrorists and in really we try to give them the technology that they're looking for but we don't do any blanket statements like will do this. That's i mean there are some says. That's the way that they do. But we just want our clinicians making those decisions and then we'll help them with those decisions on finding the right material equipment to get accomplished. What they want to get accomplished. Yes exactly right. We just want to support whatever they're doing to the highest level for that they wanna go with it so some are obviously will use you know a a scanner for everything and some of our officers. Us skater for nothing. But i'll tell you the vast majority today aren't using scanners for probably seventy seventy five percent of what they're doing one of one of these. I feel so sorry about. Dso's i'm with size. You know whoever climbs the highest up the telephone pole. That's where all the monkeys are going to shoot at it and live in this big bubble. And what i see is a lot of the complaints i say about. Dso's are just completely common among private practice just not transparent people. Don't know about it and so you know i. It's just tough when you live in an aquarium and then you've got to have very thick skin to do that. But one of the things that people are saying are dennis young dennis requesting and it's very smart is that if you're not publicly traded and you're a minority shareholder 'cause you know a lot of these ideas say will ours are this zeh. Independent owner operated pacific dental care deal or are mb two or whatever. And they're saying wait. Wait wait what do you mean owner operator. You're a minority shareholder. It's not publicly traded How are you the owner of this. Then say well. I'm a doctor. And i'm part owner and i go. Yeah you're a licensed doctrine that state but you're a minority owner and there's a lot of obviousness that if you don't own fifty one percent you might as well one percent what do you think about minority partnerships in dental offices. I mean i think it's also the senate setup all different like there's some some of the partnerships are into the parent company so they own shares in the parent they don't actually own shares in the practice themselves Ours happens to be that every practice has its own. Llc so our partners are actually shareholders in the llc so there you know they are a real owner of that. They are a minority owner. And i would say when it comes down to the whole sixty one forty nine type of question is like who are you doing business with. I think that's the biggest thing in You know if. I were a young doctor i would. I would look at a different. Dso's unseen what their track record has been you know see how happy the dentists have been with him. See how long they've been doing in you know in the industry what you know the things that i stated earlier you know what kind of things. How do they help you. You know what are the. What are the numbers of the practice after the the. So helps you in get involved but at least with our company that i don't think there's very few times that you get down several like hey i own more than you own and so this is what we're doing a truly i. I don't believe in the fact like you push people into doing anything you know if it has to do with ethical. Things are legal. Legal things that obviously you do the right thing always but you know we're always about compromise and in a just all built around doing things the right thing so patient care and you know i'd say ninety nine point nine percent of the time that the doctor partner and the majority partner are completely in line with whatever's right for the patient. I don't really care what my homie think. As long as they're thinking it correctly i mean. I don't want you to think you're in dallas if you're really in houston and when they look at their equity that they have in their house so their dental office or their land or building. They often think it's very simple. Say well dental offices worth one years collection you know. They have all these little rules of thought. You know what i mean and when the doctor is listening to you right now and he's thinking i would like to get some equity outta my dental office says. I'm tired of doing wearing all the hats. I'd like to call you up. How would you value the practice. If if he met this great area of he's to dr one point eight million seven pretoria's measure what you would pay for that really. You know it's This traditional used to be percent of collections. That was you know everyone. Use a rule of thumb. You know seventy five percent seventy percent depending on where it is really. It's come today. That's everyone's shifted to more of the what the value of the profitability of so. It's a multiple of eba so the multiple of earnings and i was saying in today's market. It really depends on the type of fractious so you look at different things on the age of equipment you know. Are you selling something that you know. Everything's going after your place. In the next couple of here nuke oppressor vacuums new chairs new new everything or you getting pretty modern practice satanic in the practice the biggest drivers the earnings. You know Is is it a prophet practice or another prophet practice. You know some people say well. I can get seven times. But if you don't have a lot of earnings you know sometimes could be solo number You know so it's it's kind of a litmus test of saying how success was my practice and then we all we try to do is say okay. Where's the practice right now. Today in then we try to show the doctor say okay. If we get involved with we can change the certain things typically labs and supplies that you know the value practice will go here to here so we like to do what we call earn out. So if if the i guess. The efficiency of the earnings of the practice isn't necessarily work could be. We like to be able to have doctor share the upside in new us in which we can help them repair some of these areas that need fixed in then we will pay them that full value a year. Later after we've been involved. So i think it's a win win at that point. You know that you get paid what it's worth at the time but then you get paid additionally after you've worked closely with us to help get values up especially in the area. Kobe today. Are you can appreciate because you've got these two or three dinger months in there and so this allows that to be the advantage of the doctor. Say you get this thing back on track so we really help out in every way by making tailored to them. So do you also buy land and building of dental offices that would have cell or are you not into Land and building in real estate in only one own business not real estate. Yeah you know we. We originally kind of contemplated that in some of our original deals involved the real estate but the real estate took so long to get through the process of purchasing that really caused a lot of buyer fatigue on the dental side Because you know you can close like we can close a dental practice in two months. after going through diligence. We have the money so we can close it quickly but it could take a real estate in six seventy months and that it just really got to be a burdensome on the deals in in not good for you know the dentist having to wait that long to get a deal done so we've opted not to do that. I do think there's value in that for sure but we just decided that distinctive just practices so two months. Start to finish. So you've got a team that goes in evaluates everything and they can do this start to finish in sixty days yes yeah it's the big thing is We use jarvis so we once we signed we plug that in the back of their system so essentially we can pull all the numbers. It makes it a lot easier on the doctor All we get matched their. Kpi's up to what our company runs on the kpi to see what the opportunities are. So that really takes a lot of the the effort in the old days when you'd have to have reams of faber and you know the doctor would be there late at night. Midnight printing off every report known to man to give to us. We can take a lot of that hard by using jarvis and then his really you know just doing the financial analysis in financial time back to make sure that All of are real collections. Make sure it's all made it to the bank and there's a good quality of earnings. So that's that's really the majority of the things we have to do. You know i would always recommend eat. Whoever you know is listening today. If you're gonna do a deal find an attorney that you know is is not particularly somebody that you might just know from your town but find attorney that's done identified the all that i've seen doctors initial twenty to thirty thousand dollars on lawyers because they didn't know gentle in they had to be educated. They do that on on the dentist pocketbooks. So if you're going to find the find a good attorney that's done. Several done will deals in the past and they'll make it much more quicker and efficient and save you a lot more money as well. yeah. I i've been screaming to use a dental sleep for years. I mean i love the fact that they. They wanted someone they could trust. And they they asked the pastor their church and he recommended some guy in. that's great. I'm sure he's a great person but he didn't know anything about dentistry. And when you look at these dental. Cpa's that only do dental. might they just. They're just so much better. And as far as good tax accountant. You always wanna find an account. News has a loophole named after him. That's the That's the sure sign. You got the best accountant I know we pass our. Can i got a couple of overtime. Questions can keep you on a little longer. The main problem in every company known to man is hr. It's people time money. I mean look at the look of the patriots The you know there's just one employee laughed and it costs them a whole super bowl and I'm out here. Zona and arizona's governor Found out that you know that the hospitals here were having to go to ireland to recruit nurses because that was easier than trying to get a nurse license in another state to go through boards. And everything again here so governor ducey just said that's crazy and he said anybody professionally license. Another state is good in arizona so we have become ground zero for. Dso's eighteen out of every hundred denison. Arizona work for Here and and everybody knows what their issues are but what they don't talk about is the same issues. Earn all the private practices again the opaque and these terms. But it's it's always. Hr it's always staff turnover. People come your say well. I went there and a dentist. I needed for fillings. And i went back to and that dentist a longer work there and then there was a new dentist and they said i had three feelings there. You're selling the invisible. It's not like when you're to go get a bottled water and a snickers bar you know what you're getting you're selling invisible you. Don't you know when someone says you have four cavities. I mean what are you supposed to do. You've you gotta trust. So how do you what do you what have you learned from. Hr at this volume and dennis. Because i feel sorry for greg the most because my god. If you're on dental town you couldn't get to dennis to agree that today's wednesday. I mean they don't agree on anything. I mean nothing. Even the pediatric dentists have slipped into herds. Just over silver daming floor. I mean this is a complicated group of people. I mean when eight years of college doctor physician our lawyer. You do not make a good employee. You're very high maintenance. You're very complicated. You think too much you over. Think everything so how. What have you learned. From insa- it's part of this partnership model that You know it's very important that we want continuity of care and we don't want to be changing doctors like in. That's that's why we're targeting green practices with great dentists owners that you know have a great culture in their practice. It's it's been a that's been established for a long time but also you know the programs financially that are beneficial to the doctors. And so that. You know back to what i said before. It's it's having this win win program that you know as as Win just the boat rises staffing Staffing is one of challenges. That it you know. I've always faced from this industry and probably will continue to face that you know. The u inflated staff salaries in a lot of cases because of just a lack of wanting to have any conflict staff members. So you you you may have a practice. That has an office manager where three days leak makes ninety year end. There's there's been a practice that lieutenant ask the dogs. Major mad made more than the doctor because she had been there for. Twenty years. Gun held hostage. So you know those things are one of those most more challenging things. On how do you find good talent and retain it but at the same time. Have it be fair for the location where it doesn't drain all the profitability out because all the staff costs have gone so high. So that's that's something that i think is a continual challenge for the industry itself It's it's a challenge for us. But i'm always going back to you know you mentioned earlier that than i believe in servant leadership in in really you know that that's lost the trading people how you want to be treated respect diversity or respect other people's opinions that hopefully that people are coming to work in doing what they wanna do. Because they love their job they love taking care of patients but ultimately that they love the surroundings are in. And they're happy with the team that we know dennis dennis by the same problem in their mindset of patients. Spend all this money on marketing to try to get new patients. And you you teach them the hygiene capacity that okay. You only got one hygienist if she were forty hours a week fifty weeks year. It's two thousand hours. She can only see a thousand people twice a year and if he got twenty five a month. You need a new hygienist every three years and you've been here thirty years so you have ten fulltime hygienists and you have one three days a week. I mean it's just a river there's rivers no damn there's no beavers jaundice slow down and it's the same thing i see a lot of these big. Dsl is where i mean. There are so many dental. Recruitment compete companies. That have popped up all over lincoln Because they got a big high fee for landing in associate. And i'm thinking number one. We're gonna pay. Hi fi to find the socio dennis and number two. They're gonna be gone in a year and it's not just dental office millennials. Don't stay sit anywhere. They don't amazon their average sales year. Facebook google uber. That just throws everything. Adam can't even keep them for two years. My mom's brother which lives up the street got job mobil. Oil is sixteen retired there sixty five. I mean that was the last generation at toyota honda. Over here. the millennials. Just don't stay. See so i'm sitting here thinking well. Why are you paying five thousand dollars to bag an associate dentist. He's not going to say there for year. Same thing with the patient. I would focus on retention. I mean when you look at Fortune five hundred companies like chase and salvator lines. They don't want a new patient All their programs are retention their loyalty programs. You fly ten times you get another flight it's all about retention and dentists I see with the assistance. The assistant space is reported on as is the highest turnover space and dentistry and young. Dentists have told us several times that they couldn't sleep because they had this big mullah ruka now nearly one. You're out of school. And they didn't even do a all stressed out and they the drive to work and they walk in and they find out. They got a temporary assistant somebody. They couldn't pick out of a police lineup and it's usually the last straw. They're like you know you're talking about servant leadership Dennis quit because they felt sorry for a patient and they had to take and they thought well why you pay for this to. You're having a hard times. But what's now. I'm just going to do the fillings. On each side of it for free while it's non and the office manager said like hell you are. You're not doing free dentistry. We're billing those out and they're paying like dude. You just told the doctor. He can't do charity dentistry on his own patient. So i'm asking you. Do you really see the dso. Success being with owner operators. Do you think you can do it with employees dennis. And if you're gonna do with employee. Dennis what are you going to do to try to be unique. An increase retention of these dentists of they stay there and brandon with the patients. I and i think that's you know that's exactly why we're partnerships for dennis. That that i believe in the partial model. I believe that you know having that. Dr really tied into the practice having an owner attitude. You know it's kind of like you know mcdonalds if you look at mcdonalds always talked about how the franchisees really always outperformed the company's stores and that's because ownership right. That's because they cared. It wasn't just an employee taking care of it. And i believe that's the same with dentistry. And you know there. There are a lot of folks that have models that are based on just employees doctors. And and i just think that you have to. You have to do a lot more to keep those folks engaged in the business. There has to be more of a carrot. There has to be more of a long term plan for them or they are going help and you know they got gotta imagine the way things are in our industry right now that there are these recruiters knocking on den. Dentist doors every day and say hey. Here's the thirty thousand dollars. Sign on bonus. You know right across town right outside your restricted area you know. Why don't you come over here. You know they're going to pay you. Thirty percent senator twenty percents so if if you're to have a model which has an employee dentist. I do think that you have to have a long term plan for that dentist so they can have the upside of being at that practice rather than You know having alternative options thrown at them all the time and having to consider that all right well. I mean You guys have been so awesome anything else. You wanted to talk about that. I didn't talk about. I don't think you really did a good job of covering subjects. And you know it's just all our industries you know really at an exciting point is still very small penetration You know the get the diaz to the private practice. So you know this this growth that we've seen over the last fifteen twenty years. I think it's going to continue for another fifteen or twenty. And i think the dso's themselves who have to continually refine themselves or models. They're of value propositions our offerings older to win. That you know there's a lot of competition for what we do in practices that we affiliated with doctors that we weren't was so i think it you know every every year you're seeing the eso copies themselves get better because of that. Fact are i will good luck. Gentlemen and i like what you're doing for the industry which is anything that adds competition to the industry. You know the history shows two things that i don't like. Transparency versus opaque and competition versus absolute power corrupts absolutely when when there's no transparency. There's trouble when there's no competition there's trouble and of course. Dennis an wants to do one crown bill. The insurance company get paid a million dollars thing. Go on a cruise for a year. That's going to work there. Needs to be competition. And i think anything that adds competition to make you a workout harder to win. The playoffs and go to the super bowl is good for the industry. And when i say industrial mean the patient so i don't care your dentist assistant. Hygienics hmo's supplier. I don't care who you are. You're all denominators divided by the Numerous the denominator is the patient. And just as long as everybody keeps one eye on the patient and one eye on costs and use their god given talent to make dentistry faster easier. Higher quality lower cost than of people will have the freedom to afford the dignity of keeping their teeth. And when you take your eye off cost and you're making rich stuff for rich people That's not what america's about america's about making stuff that used to be only for the kings and queens available to the masses and that takes a lot of competition and thank you guys for innovating in this space and again i'm sure that you at your business model and what they're boston consulting and what they're doing law firms. It'll probably be a lot of iterations. It might be another decade before you even really feel good about any business model. I mean i've always said that every dental office is just you know you can experiment daily experiment of altering a little here a little there and you just slowly but surely get better so thanks for taking so much time out of your daily lives To come on the show it's been an honor and good luck. Gentlemen things are really appreciate it. Thank you look forward to seeing you yet. Buying a sensor is madness large upfront investment too expensive for every op in pricey warranties with high deductibles subscribe instead with the jazz club. One thirty nine per month. And just a one time sixteen forty-nine sign up fee when using promo code madness jazz imaging dot com. That's jazz imaging dot com.
E53: Live Show Astro Lounge, Steven Roy Harper, and Lyle and Erik Menendez
"Hey guys you are listening to kill her cocktails where the drinks are stiffed. The buddies are stiffer. This is a casual true crime. podcast to friends get get drunk and talk about gruesome murders each week. We pick a different drink. whose name or ingredients set the tone for our stories? Hey guys is Jackie Andrea. This was supposed to be a live recording. It was recording but unfortunately absolutely the live recording did not go very well. Technical things are difficult There's speakers involve wires. I kept texting our friend and he was busy with another live event or Dr Phil Great Sound Tack and we great friend. Great Friend In portfolio but thank you for lending us all your equipment It worked for the live event yet the recording. We messed up. The live event went well but the shout to astro outage. Thank you for having thank you. Astro Land Dan. You guys were amazing. They let us set up and we did a live show. Some people came out. It was really fun. And then they had like live trivia right after that was awesome. Awesome partnership they'll do with base and every once in a while right like that was kind of our our foot in the door was our friends and new basins like our drinks. Tonight are based off of the drinks from that night which are new basin as cocktail and then Creggan Lexi Our bartenders ad Astra Lonzo read. They were very accommodating so nice yeah. GO CHECK OUT ASTRO LOUNGE IF if you're ever in town and the new basin as always on Address they are ad that night we drink to cocktails. So Jackie did the huckleberry lemonade. And that's new basins for I cut vodka navy's Huckleberry basaltic which is also here in bend and lemonade huckleberry. So here's my memory huckleberry when I would go visit my cousins in Washington we would go pick huckleberry sneak your this magical northwest treat. Yeah we even have Xanax or if we did that was unaware of and that was really picky kids the fact that I was picking a Burien eating it was a pretty big deal Damn Gina. Yeah Polka various fond memories to me the drink a huckleberry Suchart It was a little too sweet the way they were making it. That night was just a little like if I was GONNA make it. I don't know what I would dial back up But when we throw the recipe out there get a little taste if it's too sweet yeah figures levels and I think there's there's a kernel of a really good drink in their awesome Yeah I think my taste profiles with yours. I like more tart drinks than sweet drinks which is why I really liked my cocktail? which was the Mint Kentucky Mule which is good in when it was a new base in strong whiskey? Mint Ginger Beer and fresh fresh citrus. And they put it in a copper Mug Kinda like drink from a Moscow mule and it was super tasty. I was like kind of stealing everybody's throughout the night in throughout Trivia and but yeah no that was such a cool experience being at. Because I think we're going to talk about the same thing. Why not? Let's figure it out. Oh are you gonNA talk about when somebody heard our yes okay. So apparently we're up on stage. I'm finishing up my story. And somebody a passer-by with their friend. Here's our voices and she's like that sounds like the girls from. I'm Kim cocktails at podcast. I listen to you and she comes in and just start bouncing around in the front row and like I don't know who she is and I'm finishing up my story so I'm like Kuku Kuku Kuku. I'm like Oh this is somebody who now and so we like. Finish up we thank everyone off stage and then rick from new base and brings her over in a and he's like oh blah blah blah blah. Have you met and also go. Is this your daughter who I've never met her. And apparently it's a local listener. Yeah and she like found us on itunes and she's hurt our voice. She didn't even know that there was like a live shows going on it It was such a magical moment. It was so cool meeting her. Yeah I really like that life show. That was read all right so enough about that. I guess we'll get to what you guys are here here for mood. Jackie do you WANNA go first. I will go. First so again Jackie's cocktail was the huckleberry lemonade. Okay so For my story. Oh if you go on net flex you can watch hell old forensic renchik files episodes or he'll you and I highly recommend it because it's dramatic and all the ways that it needs to be. They're concise they're like little twenty minute little nugget bombs uh-huh absolutely great so the kind of like the crafting of my story the The narrative heavily pulled from a forensic files episode called without a trace. I think and the way that they put it on. Netflix is it's like it's definitely not chronological. They just kind of like make seasons up. It's just hodgepodge so I feel like it's even though it's a really old episode. I feel like it's like season eight or whatever they've anyway it's called without a trace and figure it out. I recommend finding it watching it. 'cause is is good so that one again kind of like set the how I'll tell it but then the details came from this website called dark side of America. Okay but no author listed so it's just like a bunch of I don't know if it's different authors and they're all under the sun like a robust website with different art. There's there's other true crime stories and it seems it seems pretty well researched and all that okay so my my story has a really terrible part and we're just GONNA get through it right here in the beginning like a band aid which is going to rip it off okay So I apologize. How yucky it is It's an Oldie so back in September of Nineteen eighty-seven Eleven months old Chad Shelton arrives at the cer and he is bleeding from the corners of his is his nose every pour a little bit of blood come like he's bleeding all hemorrhaging from anywhere. I'm out yeah. So his parents had been out okay. like shopping. That they were buying. They've gotten a book a shampoo her like a carpet shampooer for their house and they were out buying furniture and and they'd stop and Got Mike tacos to eat like it was kind of a normal day and their little baby starts getting like super sick and ultimately the parents answer also kind of not feeling well but they're not exhibiting the same signs that this little babies so they get to the emergency room and doctors have no idea what they're up against or whether they're just like okay here's symptoms and we're trying to. He has no fever and everything else is kinda going on with him. He should have a really high fever already. Dozen so kind of also confounding founding them so they start running blood tests his platelet count is nineteen thousand instead of one hundred forty thousand and his blood sugar level is eleven which indicates Severe liver liver failure so I wanNA know what the number is supposed to carry. Do you have any idea what you're Sugar level should be okay so according to camry and Google safe levels would be about one hundred. There's a range like eighty to one fifty but the fact that eleven is far off from whatever the actual answer is eleven is not it yes. So they're like all right so this is some sort of like weird crazy libre stuff going on. They try to save Baby Baby Chad and ultimately they can't so baby Chad passes away then a couple of hours later. This dude dwayne Johnson. What the Rock? Not that down a different viewers at home wondering arrives in the Er and he's he's got he's got like a bloody he's not bleeding out of his pores but he's got a bloody nose like similar ish and they're like Oh and like at first because I think you've got at different teams working at like whoever's working pediatrics on a case but there's this one nurse who's like somehow either she's like station she's talking to somebody but she kind of figures out that there's similar similar things going on and she's like Oh we just like went through this with this baby and same thing goes on with this student and then ultimately dwayne dies. Could you imagine being what epidemic is like hitting our city right now. Because you're scared about just like yes. Flying I cared about the fact that you don't know what you're being Exposed yes a lot. That's very scary So then that nurse because she kind of sees those connections. I think she's the one that kind of sets it on the path. Then they figure out the baby baby. Chad and Dwayne Johnson are related. Oh dwayne his uncle Sam House your house. Okay okay. So now. They're like what happened to Dwayne and what happened to be so they're running all these tests and again neither of them had fevers which is throwing everybody off. Yeah and nothing's coming back in. These talks talks grains. They're running the blood and nothing's coming back is like hot for anything. So they're like all right of butts figure out to they've got like again the their levels are off but there's poisons there's no virus it there's no there's nothing that kind of helps them out so during chats this this is during baby Chad's autopsy the examiner notes that his liver looked Super discolored and appeared to have severe necrosis. Like something that an eleven month old baby. Wouldn't I have. Yeah so then the hospital like there. We don't know what we're dealing with and something's going on like I don't think they'd at this point they'd have the autopsy on Dwayne yet so let's just call on. CDC let's just be like hey. Something's happening here. We all are but yeah we need to outside forces with more resources than we have so then this Toxicologists called Rinat Kimball. Dr Ronald Kimball gets involved and she comes up I think. CDC's based in Atlanta sets out. Yeah so she comes out from Atlanta and she starts going through all the information and at first she's just kind of like this is kind of a mystery. She doesn't think like foul play is involved And then she's like she's perplexed. Can't figure it out. So she's like flipping through a textbook and sees a picture of liver slice and she's like that looks. Hello like the liver choices from the baby. And drains like from their autopsy. And that's exactly what she said. This hell look size. Hail I'm time Campbell. Now we'll looks like I. Yeah Yeah it's like I'm there right okay. So what is this picture in the sex book. What is the picture of? Yeah it's a picture of a liver of someone who's been poisoned. Who got the sounded out? Die Meth Flynn nitrosamine. Yeah Demand Amen. For short perfect all right so she sees us and she's like okay so this is what a liver looks like that is infected with has been exposed to DM. Okay okay What is D. N. D. N.? Causes Liver Cancer Demon is used in in cancer research to give animals cancer that they can then try to cure what someone's working at a lab that have access to this family so she sees the stuff she puts it. She's like all right I. She's like based on observation. CNN photo right. Now I'm just running on the beginnings. I'm thinking foul play. I'm thinking somebody gave these people demand because it's look let's see if that's the case so she's like all right. So here's the horrible thing about Tiananmen. If you've ingested it your body processes it super fast like within hours if not a day so now you can't find it anymore. That's crazy it's going to pass us. Every talk screen is so meanwhile before she gets involved and she's like they're like what. There's this huge mystery. If you're watching the forensic files was episode. They're like what made these guys sick. Yeah so the trace it back like what did the Because of the parents get sick but the parents don't die then in in Dwayne family like his daughter get sick the wife dozen There's some other real so they trace it back. Everybody was altogether hanging now one afternoon like a week prior so okay a week prior. What did you guys eat? So now they're going through house and they're like they go through both like. What was the shampoo who condition like when the shampoo? They're like they're looking at everything so then when they're Dwayne house between was pat painting the House. What was he painting of with breathing in the fumes He had an air conditioning unit unit. There and it didn't have a filter and there was a bird nest above it and they were like did the bird poop get in the air filter like everything and they're like okay so they narrow it down to will everyone a week ago. That drank lemonade got sick. Oh so dwayne. Dwayne had been out painting house. Oh thank you my my tie. Yes is love aid. You're tired of the cocktail huckleberry lemonade lemonade. They just say everybody drank lemonade. Got Sick first of all. SORRY THAT'S A. That's a solid tie job. Thank you very much to Dwayne. Without paying the house and the heat he'd go down to full glasses of lemonade. So they're kind of attributing the fact that he died to how much of that limited he drank. Baby Chad had a little bit eliminating like a Sippy Cup and he was just so small. The tiny amount Out that he had but his parents had lemonade again. They got sick but they didn't die. Okay but what about this limited. We're laying Wayne had a two year old daughter. Yeah she drank lemonade Teja. She got super sick but it but live. Okay okay so so now. They figured out so through police work of like looking at everything in the house talking everybody retying and timelines the kind of land on this lemonade at the same time or in the same sphere of time. The doctor Kimble is saying. I think that these people were exposed goes to demand had demand. So she's like look. You're looking for somebody who works in Cancer Research. That had it out on his family okay. So here's the timeline. The police Kinda Creek's trying to figure out like what what happened with Islam need. Yeah okay so dwayne. The old guy said Dwayne and his wife Sandra they have a three month old son Michael and a two year old daughter Sherry Sandra's sister. Susan Conley also lives with them. There's a house that's got dad. Mom little baby baby a little girl or little toddler girl and a sister in law on Saturday. September ninth nineteen seventy eight. Everybody leaves the house at about eight percent. In my opinion cal. Crazy Griego is like a baby or toddler at night. But who knows what they did so they leave him eight. Yeah Yeah we ate. Somebody's House yes. So they leave at eight and they return home about one. AM So now. It's September number tough at around six AM. Susan says the sister-in-law she gets a hankering and had to the kitchen. There's lemonade in the pitcher. But it tastes weird so she spits it out. Put back in the fridge. A why would you put back in the fridge. does Yucky BECCA. Go La so then she has some. I think she has a glass of milk. She was so she pours herself. Glad smokes can have a piece of pecan Pie all right so then later that morning. So that's like super early. So now Sandra the MOM Dwayne the two kids now like everyone's starting their days Sandra and her sister they make a bullshit like they've got cereal for the kids so the milk she didn't dump out the milk that's right. I remember thinking that was strange. She jumped up her glass of milk. But not all the milk. I'm I'm GonNa read between the lines a little bit and I'm GonNa make up some information. Is this her house. No she's there is a guest They went out at night. They got back in one. She's got a hankering in the morning. I don't know but I trust her judgment on taste. Listen flavor profiles of lemonade in the milk and the picket I she probably is just like no it's not in the spies so I'm not gonNA harshly judge the fact that she's like Yuck in spinning stuff out but not getting rid of it. Yeah it makes sense so the milk is still hanging around and lemonade is still hanging around. But PECAN Pie. She aided so now. They've got this I okay. She initiated survey. All right. It's now everyone's like trying to get their day started. They got cereal. Go on all this stuff as soon as Sherry very so. Soon as she finishes her cereal she starts as a two year old. She's a toddler. She starts complaining that their stomach hurts instantly. Just like that that her mom is like like we got things to get over it and so she's not really paying. She's like this talk. If you've seen like I can't bend to every whim like get it over your tummy ache. Eight your cereal fast. They have a lot of women. Yeah so she's we're going so they go out and they're doing these errands and then Sherry starts puking she's like okay. There's there's something something here this is going on. So they go home all right so while Sandra is with puking Sherry so then her stat Sudan and step. Mom stopped by the House. She's out in like she's probably on route back with her puking kid. dwayne is out painting the House so his inlaws come by and they have have some coffee. But this is Duane Drought Duane drowns. The two glasses of women it drowns. Have you heard that joke. If no if you had like drunk moment knock knock. Who's there dwayne Twain? Who Dwayne the bathtub? I'm drowning okay. The joke was twain. dwayne drains two glasses of but dwayne wayne sounds like train. Yeah doing tweens to. He drinks glasses of lemonade. So the parents. They're they're having coffee. Duane said this Lemonade as her parents so she gets back and she's getting back. The parents are leaving and almost immediately. He drank lemonade. He feels awful. dwayne get super sick and he just starts blown chunks so by midday both dwayne and his daughter daughter are in bed feeling bad so the house is sick. Like daughter was grown up out. Dwayne like you know to them probably seems like a normal flu around two PM. Sandra's sister. Sally so this is the sister-in-law her husband. No no no sorry. Excuse me so. She's got her sister. That's in house with them now. She's got this sister Sally and Sally's husband Bruce. They're the ones that are the parents baby Chad so at around two they come by. So you've got the parents there for a little bit like you've kind of got this like in and out household of just like everyone lives in the same town. They're all kind of like seeing each other. It's not like a party going on. So so they come by and there for like an hour they should. The parents share a glass of lemonade. They put a little bit and be Sippy Cup by. Hi that night dwayne his daughter Sherry Bruce and Sally Baby Chad are all sick and that night like Chad dies at the hospital title on September fourteenth. So like there's so like the timelines earlier I said like a week prior so I think forensic files was like a week ago. They were. I think he's a handful of day. So we're like a couple of days like people are getting sick. They're sick for a little bit. Then go to the hospital like there's this little time so this is when police trying to figure out like what did everybody have by the time they figure out that it's probably the lemonade. Limits all been consumed or thrown out. They've washed they've watched the picture like I. We can't find anything so like okay. How did you like? Let's test the sugar. Let's test your water. Let's test the. Where's your lemonade maxine? Nothing's popping they can't so all of that's happening and then you've got Dr Campbell. Who then is like I think? It's an exposure to DNA like and the seems intentional. And I think you're looking for somebody that works in cancer research so all that kind of like comes together. Okay so then police are like dude dude. Sandra who could have it out for your family like this originated in your house so like your sister. And brother-in-law came and had like seems like dilemma. Need from your fridge. That's people are getting sick. Who could be after you guys? And she's like nobody nobody nobody could have for us like that. Everyone else is kind of in the same vein So then let's go back in time. Okay so who could have it out for them. Let's go back in time back in high school in. Nineteen seventy three seventy four. Sandra says dwayne wife. Sandra had a relationship with a dude named Steven. Roy Harper sustain even was described by people as shy introverted. He'd been in a fire as a kid and he had some scars. Have you looked at pictures of him like it's not super noticeable but obviously like a kid in adolescent growing up like it was impactful to him. Okay so she's dating this so she's dating this guy. He's described his like shy introverted again because he had those scars like he's just kind of. He's not super outgoing. He's never had a girl from before for Somehow opposites attract and they're they're Dayton and it's towards the end of nineteen seventy four when things between him and Sandra are Kinda like on the skids so she breaks up with him because essentially she wants to date Dwayne and she's like hey it's it's been cool but like this is run. Its course how you know whatever she says to him and he does not take it well so to him. It was like he never had a girl before and this he he was gonNA marry her and like there was no other Joel. So He's been out of shape about it. So Sandra and Dwayne get married January seventeenth nineteen seventy five so like. She goes from dating him. Dating Dwayne to getting married to Duane relatively quickly perfect Only a couple of days after the wedding Stephen Approaches Sandra and tells her she should have no the marriage and when she's like On Lake Mary Duane. It's over. He's says he's going to kill them. What not so? June's those January so then June of June. Twenty first nineteen seventy-five. Sandra Dwayne are there. Like other family members they're all hanging out outside of Sandra's Mantell so they're just like barbecue in and like whatever and Stephen drives up. STARTS ARGUMENT FIRES A shotgun. What at the crowd of family just like just at them it gets arrested pill? It's hit her mom and her brother Stephen gets arrested. He gets charged and convicted and he does some time and gets paroled November Sixteenth nineteen seventy seven march third. Nineteen seventy eight. So this is you know a half a year or more after. We're getting released so he starts working at Edgeley Research Institute in Omaha interesting. What do you think Eddie? Research Institute focuses Zahn Cancer. His job is taking care of animals institute was using connection with cancer research. While he's there he sees a Clipping Ping on a bulletin board that describes how a man in Germany killed his wife by poisoning her Marmalade with D. N. so he's in his cancer research job sees a clipping. That's like Oh look at this. Everybody that works in Cancer Research. This guy that worked in cancer research killed his wife with demand. Don't be inspired word now. So Stephen Lives with his parents and on August seventh nineteen seventy eight. The family took a dog and a cat. That are very sick in bleeding from every orifice to the vet. The vet says that they're suffering from some type of poisoning that he can't figure out and both animals die. I am a week or so later. till yeah like he has like Oh. I can't figure this out that in who knows what's going on with these animals. Yeah then then. Stephen Resigns from his position at the Research Institute Okay so based on the the police start focusing on Stephen based on like so. When they're talking to Sandra she's like he's a sweet got like she doesn't mention him being violent when he shot at her family and went to jail for it? Yeah okay so A former inmate acquaintance of so we got a jailhouse niche. A jailhouse snitch says that Steven told him that he had access to lethal drugs and that he was gonNA use them to kill his ex girlfriend. So He's you shot the family. He's in jail now. He's talking to another jailhouse dude and he's like I'm like I think this is outside of prison. And he's like I'm I'm GonNa get her and I got ways to do it so so they're like it's Steven Steven did it. He's got the motive for it. He told someone he was going to do it. He works in the plate. Like all of these things are lining up but the detectives are like. It's it's all circumstantial. We can like we might be able to sell that to a jury but flick for the DA to want to prosecute like we need evidence and when you look at the bodies. Nobody's nobody's been poisoned like they. Yes they obviously like showed signs of how to phrase it but like they're like how we need. It needs to be ironclad so they want more than what they have. So Dr Kimble reaches out to this dude who specializes in cancer research and I think specifically demon And she's like if I send you some liver samples just because I take these liver samples. She's like I can't test them to know the demand is in them. There's nothing I know about it. She's like if I give you seven samples that are labeled. But you don't know what the sample a sample if I give you liver slices and a sneak one in from dwayne. Can you tell me if demand is in them. And he's like yeah because what this guy specialized in was the way that Diene impacts your DNA chain so he's like yeah it's GonNa create these spikes so he gets the seven samples. He runs them. Only one sample has the two spikes and he's like this sample has demand in it and she was like cool. That's the sample from Twain. Awesome so then detectives are like Boom Shaka Laka. We've got again a direct quote from. Detectives Boom Chockablock. So now they're like we've got the dude who used to date her shot. Her family settled somebody. He was going to kill her access to the poison All like a now we can so like yes the people who died. That's what they so the friendly he told about There was another but it was the same guy or another. There's another snitch. who was like? Oh Dwayne told me that. He snuck into the house at night and that he poured demand into dilemma. Need Oh so I don't know if like 'cause the two sources have had like forensic files house painted where it just when the lemon made on the other article I read was like the potentially could have been in the milk and lemonade did not really sure But so there's somebody else who's like no well like do like dude snuck in poured into something and they all drank it and they got sick so what is unknown. As like. Did Stephen Intend to kill the family. Yeah right away or is it. I don't know if it's more sinister. I think it's more sinister. Did he use intend to give everybody. Cancer Sir Yeah and do like a long con- kind of just like give everybody liver cancer. Oh my God because he was targeting. Do you think he was talking the whole family. Or you don't know who's GONNA drink. Here's here's what's crazy. Sandra didn't drink lemonade. Sandra didn't drink the milk Sandra never got sick. Yeah only dwayne got sick and only their kid got sick. Nick so dwayne died. Their daughter has had liver issues her whole life and is waiting to get liver cancer. Chad's parents who Chad Chads Dad. God was not only heartbroken that his baby died but he just became incredibly paranoid that he was going to get cancer and became became a raging alcoholic. was homeless like he died a homeless alcoholic when US fifty eight. Oh it's like everything is so that everyone who had the lemonade. uh-huh lives in fear of the day. They discover that they've got cancer. It is not an people died. Yeah and it's not even just everyone who drink is the ripple effect and everyone's lives who's affected affected like who were part of those families lives. Yes Oh you got the parents who came over and just had coffee million so stephen. They're like all right. You throw the book at him. We've got everything we need. They arrest him I believe he's tried found that like I think he goes through all that process kills himself in jail. And that's that's the end everyone's living in fear and it's sad how discrete so there's nothing to reverse the demand no you. You've just been exposed to accounting. Oh John I am not only like just something like a curtain but like something that in one hundred percent intentionally gives can't yeah like that's it. Yes Yeah Oh I hate it. Yeah well thank you Jackie. My bummer. T- we are going to take a short break and we will be right back tears. Hey guys this is our mid rule still a Stra and Jackie. We missed you guys on our break. Yeah and we've got multiple times been like we miss recording recording. We miss each other gets busy We quite enjoyed reading all your messages and responding to you while we are on this break and a couple of you you reached out asking if we had Patriot or something that you guys could donate to and so we actually created donate button on our website. killer cartels Harte's podcasts. Dot Com. If you're on the webpage it's beautiful. It's right there on the right hand side right above the about US section. If you're on your phone own you're gonNA have to scroll past the first couple episodes on you like scrolling like swipe swipe it midway through the website. There's there's GonNa be this donation button and you could donate a dollar fifty cents five dollars ten dollars billion dollars. Jackie I dunno your life off. Damn we would make the best show if you donate a million dollars so appreciative if we had to go on a break for a million logistical just to go reasons And it does cost money to produce this so every little bit helps it makes it easier for put episodes. Yeah So if you love our show and if you love us and you WANNA contribute. There's a way we don't have a Patriot but we do have this donate button and we would be so happy and thankful if you could donate. I'll bet we'd say thank you. Oh my God hell Ya. If you don't eat it a million dollars we hang out with you. We go to Brunch. Go the fun center. If you donated a million dollars I will hang out with you. But we'll have some sort of security involved a million dollars why you donated a million dollars because we're funny funny. Yeah we'll go karts at the center. Yeah okay cool cool any who you guys you know. We run a murder podcasts. With no second location we'RE GONNA have. Yes yes thank you for donating. I mean at the second location is a pizza parlor. I will be going. That's how you get me. Don't tell them this gritting it cut. That my is okay. We are back from break. What's going Nunan? How's it going? I'm ready to hear story. I wonder who did our advertisement. Yeah real nice weird mood okay. So jumping into my story so I want to talk about the references. I have have wikipedia as always you ma'am blue. Oh champion Crime Library Any articles They did like innings. Is Denser. Any are yeah over thirty years of like articles and You Have Adam Joan Jonas Hillary Hsien filled and this manning Robert Rand who has been like the intensive investigative journalists since the beginning and then this documentary the ABC did call truth in lies. The the Menendez brothers nicely done the inky. Oh I've had a hard time selling their last name. I I have been intentionally the saying wrong to try and get you. Let's so easily. Would I have to say it one more time. So let's let me see if I can do okay so I'm going to tell you the story of Joseph. Lyle and Eric Gallon Menendez The first thing going to jump into the background background of their parents so their father. Jose is born in Nineteen forty four in Havana Cuba during the time of Fidel Castro. Not the greatest place to to be growing up. He's a handful of a child in his parents have a hard time reading him in like if he says his mind to something. He's going to get it. When he turned sixteen gene? The family decides to move to the states In in America Jose just like has the mission to like live the American dream. He is going to be successful. No matter what no one's getting in his way And so he studies really hard and he gets into southern Illinois University At the same time with their mother Mary Louis Anderson a Kitty Is Born in nineteen forty one and she's born into a middle-class family Unfortunately her father is very abusive to the family really Their parents would eventually divorce. And this really hits Kitty hard She gets into a depression and she becomes very withdrawn But she actually going to southern Illinois University as well. I don't think they're gonNA meet each other. I guess what then they meet each other. They Fall in love they get married in nineteen sixty three while they're still in college And they moved to New York City and both of their families like hate this. They didn't want them to be together. So you're not getting support from the family which really sucks So the first son is born This is lyle in. He's born on January tenth of Nineteen Sixty Sixty Eight and kitty at this point is a teacher but she has always aspired to be an actress. But Jose's like you know now that we have have a child you're going to need to stay home and be a stay at home mom at dream on Shelton This is your dream now. And in the meantime Jose's career just take is off and just career yet so he kinda bounces around. But he's in management for the most part so his first real break was at Hertz Rental Booker Yeah and he becomes you like works his way up and he becomes a worldwide general manager He earns a reputation for being very abusive to his employees though verbally or physically verbally. Yeah I think exhibit Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer for RCA records worldwide operations. Oh Damn enduring this time his like like in the late sixties early seventies probably eighty like mid mid eighties by the time he and his record sales went through the roof. He was like making money for the company. Yeah but they didn't know that what he was actually doing was Sending a large shipment quantities of albums to the stores before they order them so we sh- shipping them making it look like like the he was getting a lot of orders but they weren't into there's a lot of backwards so in Nineteen eighty-six alone. RCA was forced to honor twenty five million dollars in return albums. Whoa yeah he was just like you're GONNA buy yeah? Yeah I'll just send a tune I'll I'll invoice GIO. You can't do that. I know all right so then the family moved to New Jersey and their second son. Erica's born on November. Twenty seventh of nineteen seventy. So we're like backtracking a little bit but both brothers than start attending Princeton Princeton day school in the boys become very spoiled. This is a New Jersey and New Jersey. Yeah 'cause 'cause they're going to Princeton Day school near and then so the family is very wealthy and their new money like in this old money kind of town and the boys become very spoiled will the essentially get whatever they want at the same time. They are held accountable for a lot of their actions. so father their father sees them kind of like not as his children but as objects to Kinda like personify their wealth. And he's like you will be perfect individuals. You will be the American dream option. Exactly in both brothers developed stutters in stomach pains in. They start having this habit of grinding their teeth because of the pressure from their dad and teachers at the Princeton Day school felt that both lyle and Eric had learning problems but Jose would not accept his sons flaws in charter And so both parents start doing their homework for them. Yeah so like their homework's perfect and then they go in and take the tests and and they fail funny how that works in so you'll be so shortsighted. I think you need to get through that moment. So you're like this. Yeah I know yeah but but again how can you in so teachers also noticed that the brothers are a lot more immature than their classmates in at age. Fourteen lyle. We'll still wetting the bed. And he's playing with stuffed animals allows the older brother which is a red flag for me Because is those are Kinda like Regressive actions better wedding is worth looking into. Because I think there's too I think there are. There's like mental aggressive but then I also feel like that can be very just physiological thing that probably has severe implications us on how you emotionally process that. Yeah because you know that the thing that babies do yeah definitely so. I don't know what the ratio is of something definitely interesting because it comes up in store you know comes up in so as a growing up. Their father's like you're going to make your way in this family. Only you're gonNa make something of yourself. And so he signs them up for tennis and he's like you guys are going to be tennis stars and they're actually really good at tennis but not very good at school in. So when when it's time for lyle to go to college Jose's like you're going to go to Princeton and didn't have the great you couldn't get in so His father ended up doing like a fifty thousand dollar donation to get him into the schools and so then in Nineteen eighty-six the family we move to Calabasas California. Didn't go to Princeton. Yeah he's in Princeton has he. He was really good at tennis. So there with tennis and location somehow yeah so the rest of the family is in Calabasas and Because they need to move there for Jose's career and he is now president of live. Entertainment payment is that what I think I don't know what do you think Live entertainment. I think they do movies. I think they did the Rambo movies. Okay Yeah I might. I might be thinking of live nation Ticket Sales and OH ooh so. When they moved there they ended up moving up into Beverly Hills and get this like four million dollar mansion? That's just gorgeous and it has twenty three rooms rooms and tennis courts Prince and Elton. John Actually used to live there to kind of give you dude that rich or is he in debt up to his eyeballs and just knows how to like balance the books enough to live this lightbulb. They're relatively rich. Yuck so eric starts attending High School in Calabasas again. He's just an average not just. He's an average student but he's really good at tennis and he's actually ranked forty fourth in the nation for eighteen and under players He finally making his own friends. 'CAUSE lyles kind of out of the picture I'm he becomes best friends with their like. He's eighteen allows twenty one so a couple of years. Yeah so he meets this. Eric Metaxas Kid Craig and they just really hit it. Off and Craig and Eric Start Writing screenplays in their uh uh spare time and the right one In particular co ally so ally they write one screenplay called friends and and I think I've seen that show so the script is sixty two pages long it's a thriller and it's about this son who reads his parents will and realizes that when they die he's going to inherit one hundred fifty seven million dollars and so the sun then murders everyone so he could get the inheritance in in the end he ends up killing himself as well in this in the script. Yeah High School which is like when I was in middle school I would writing knowing what had worry that? That's very eh inflammatory. But also like how many you know it also could be incredibly normal especially in La ally so in the meantime lyles back Princeton He does come home a lot on weekends and stuff laundry. Yeah from across country but during his freshman year he's he's placed on academic probation for grades and attendance. And he's actually Suspended after being accused of plagiarism. Because he's plagiarizing. Yes yeah you know He. Yes one hundred percent he he was so you know Jose's not very happy about this and so while flies home is doing his homework probably from afar so lions back to Calabasas while he's on this suspension and you know he's got a lot of free time on his hand and hands hands and so in July of Nineteen eighty-eight Erik and lyle begin breaking into homes in Calabasas with their friends so crazy. It's the game where it's just a bunch of teenage age. Boys they get together. They break into houses. They don't steal anything at first is breaking in. Yeah they're like Oh if we could we could steal that and like how would you do it. What a trip rip mortgage rib makes me think of Forty Hands Edward Scissorhands when they all break it remember when they go and break into that dude. You don't know the teenagers breaking into a house. Oh maybe thinking that crazy if you remember but of course eventually this escalates because we could still let's do it and so they end up getting like a moving van essentially and they'd pull up to a house. It's interesting to clear it out. This is crazy And so the first house that they hit they Stolen one hundred thousand dollars worth of stuff and so they finally get caught and Eric is a juvenile. And so they kinda have him up for it and in no previous record in so Eric Eric actually starts doing community service because event in but both brothers have to go see a psychologist just to see like they have to go to counseling. Yeah in the meantime the Fathers Jose starts going around to all the families that got hit. And he's like here's money. Whatever you want I'll write a check for you? Don't let this hit the media. Yeah and he was actually more upset with the brothers because they got caught then that they did it and he's like you're definitely not leaders. The shows you're not leaders. This is rife for a television miniseries. Yeah definitely so kind of paint a picture of lyle more Both brothers are are really good looking In lisle starts dating. Like Victoria's Victoria's secret models and he's doing this playboy lifestyle on the side in his parents do not agree with it so they cut him off with their credit cards. And they're like I would think that they would agree with it because of the showing of it but maybe not no because that they don't want him to be showing they want him to be successful. They want to go to Princeton. They want him to have like a girl. Good girl In the Eric is like modeling on the side. Like very lightweight like Very amateur and again Jose. It's just like catalog work. Who's not happy and these sorts accusing Eric? Being gay which in mind was not okay And then Kitty finds out that Jose has been having an eight year affair and with the woman back in New York and so kiddies world is kind of crumbling at this point. The boys are kind of going out of control What she doesn't know is that Jose also has another woman on the side in La Anymore it also having sex with sex workers on the side insatiable in so because she's so mad about what's like she can't have control over the boys she decides? I'm GONNA take the boys out of the will. And so she pulls out the will and her computer one day. Okay and her friend. Why is she doing that? The boys are getting out of control. Lyle got kicked out of Princeton. God they just quietly take them out of the will to her. That's a consequence consequence And she's saying like you're being crazy we're taking the wheel. She not sing it to their face so she's at her computer. She's changing the will and her friend is over over and she's like what are you doing. She's like I'm taking the boys out though the will they can't handle this like money and she's like lyles down the hall like I can see lyle he can hear us and she's like that's fine. He can hear he needs to know that he's not getting any of this money so she's not like saying it to them but she doesn't care that they hear over here. AH IN MY MIND to quietly do it does nothing. Yeah so kitties psychiatrist recommends that the boy see Dr Oziel. Paul and shortly after Eric Search treatment with a doctor Oziel he gives permission for him to discuss the contents of his sessions with his parents and so on July nineteenth in one thousand nine hundred nine. Kitty goes through a therapist and tells him that she fears that. Her sons are narcissistic in exhibit signs. That they are sociopaths. Issue Concerned about her husband. All that doesn't come up because he seems a little bit narcissist narcissistic as well. Yeah one hundred percent okay. But she is concerned about her kids because this other psychiatrists telling her about their session. Yeah so kitty begins to lock the door to her bedroom at night. Oh she scared She keeps was to twenty two rifles in her closet and she does not allow lyle or Eric to have keys to the house in when the brothers go out at night They they have to wake her up so she could come unlocked the door and let them in because they lived there but they're not alleged keys. Yeah K. in when a could he takes too many volumes and she's rushed to the hospital in this mess staff at the hospital she might have been trying to commit. Suicide does not confirmed and On Tuesday August Fifteenth Kitty and lyle get into this heated argument in KITTY STARTS HITTING LYLE in. She grabs his hair and pulls Sopha to pay. What in Eric's there in Eric's like what like twenty which one you can use your you know? But but like Eric is lyles brother. He had no idea that his brother were to pay. He had no idea he was starting to lose his hair so he was losing his hair and Jose saw and he's like this is not acceptable. Get Out of here have to wear to pay in so we made Ohio okay No one can be surprised by what happens. uh-huh in so that night the brothers get to talking and they're like it's just so crazy. How many secrets are within our family? Yeah this is is obviously from the boys Yeah tell as you're telling me all this I'm like I'm curious where some of the information comes from because some of you like decadent to come from within the family So it had to have come from the boys and obviously like if they're trying like spinning their side or is there truth and like a lot of this comes from that documentary tree. I Talked about in the beginning. So you some of this comes from kitties friends ultimate this comes from the boys and So the boy start talking in Erica midst till I'll that their father has been sexually abusing him. Eric Mitchell younger brother adminster older and then lyle explains that he has also been sexually abused by their father. Does this come. Maybe we'll get there when we talk about the trial. Does this come up with like. Is that over questions. Do People's people definitely question it. People go are you just trying to get away with murder Did that yeah. And we'll talk about later in so according to the brothers Jose finds out that Eric has told Late every cats out of the bag. Yeah and Jose is just like I know you're gonNa tell the people I can't have that happen inside the be. The brothers at this point can scare that Jose is gonNA stop and nothing to make sure they don't tell anybody in so A couple of days. Later on Saturday Day August nineteenth nineteen eighty-nine entire family goes out on this chartered boat in the marina and they go fishing and according to the crew Jose is in the back of the boat and fishing kitties down below because she seasick and the boys are at the bow so everyone's being separated. They said it was really weird. No one was really talking They're not a loving family. Yeah exactly Into the next day on Sunday August twentieth nineteen eighty nine. The brothers decide to kill their parents. Wow Wow so jose and Kitty are got a theory. Okay they all took seasickness pills and seasickness pills made them temporarily insane. uh-huh just the boys just the voice. Okay great we'll we'll come back to that theory brought up. Thank you Jackie and blatantly made up but I feel it has merit you should be detected so Jose and Kitty are in their den at their house and they're watching the spy who loved me in their minds lion. Eric have left for the night and so at around ten PM Lion Eric Take Two twelve gauge shotguns. In shoop also their parents these are her mom's keeps in the closet. No different Would later report hearing firecrackers. But they didn't think much of it because they're in beverly hills that and lyle says during Oh so they have this later on they obviously guilty Later on they're doing interview with Barbara Walters and While says during the interview that So they had their appearance and then they're like twelve shots in the middle of the night and no one calls. The police were waiting at the house and no one shows up in the way he said it. It's kind of like he's putting the blame name on the cops the surrounding people for not calling the cops. Yeah and that's why they had a call in Li- like we're waiting for someone to like turn Assim but no one did so we had to do it. Wow And so at eleven forty seven. Lyle calls Nine one one in you can hear the nine one one call and it's it's awful. Is he pretending like he discovered his parents saying that he did it. Like what's the what's the bent doc pretending that they came home to find that their parents had been shot talk And they're like overly screaming overly yelling hysterics all over the place. Is there like running through the house. You can hear both of them Did you listen to. It is in the interview in the documentary. Yeah so so the police arrive and they see that Jose has been shot in the back of the head Four Times in that. Kitty attempted to run away during the the Incident as she was shot in the leg causing it to break and then she was shot multiple times until they ran out of ammunition and so they had to their car reload and come back and they shot her in the head. We feel like that came up at trial And then they also shot both of them in the kneecaps to make it look like a mob hit that so it's just excessive force They picked up all the shells afterwards. And Yeah it's just you no you can't you can't recognize them and there was more force to Kitty. That's what's so surprising to me I wouldn't think that that's how one just you know everybody in their MOMS. But I don't know and we'll talk about. I have a theory and we read it later. Yeah so because both of the brothers at this point are not suspects. The cops don't bring them in okay. They're like they're like yeah. They're like why are we going to take them in for questioning when their parents. They're obviously distraught the they don't hands for ballistics then look in their car. which if they had looked at the guns to do it anyway Yeah the civil what you think happened. Also bad so in so the brothers told them you know. I think this was pet. I think it was the mafia like. Yeah and so the police Amelie start following that lead In so in the meantime Lyle and Eric now have money. Oh Yeah In they buy obviously had an adjusted the will and put it through lawyers. Well we'll get to that. Oh they actually. I'm had somebody come by on August. Thirty first to erase the files and KITTIES computer In so they start buying new suits. It's the start they bought new rolex. Watches Yeah one buys a Porsche. Another one buys a cafe So one of them by a buffalo flow wings restaurant in Princeton. He needs it. Mr Buffalo's I think that was lyle. I'm Eric Hires a fulltime tennis coach. Which is Sixty K.? A year any starts competing extol highschool received graduated now I'm not sure I'm guessing he's like getting high school. He starts competing kind of all over the world. He like goes to Israel for this for tournament. Yeah they get to separate penthouse's Marina Delray and Eric at one point gives the Sky Forty K.. To sponsor a rock concert and the guy takes off with the money In there not just in charge of their money their goals are also kind of part of it. And so they're saying you are they blowing through like allowances I'm not I'm not sure. Okay but it sounds like they. They either go to their uncles for advice. Or they said they did but essentially in the interview. They're like rankles road off on all the things we purchased they said it was okay so within the first six months they spent a million dollars impressive. uh-huh yeah In so some two million dollars in six months Bacon I was GonNa say what's the most. What's what thing cost the most? I would do like a world ticket like airplane. World Travel Travel. Okay Oh I'M GONNA food to a world. Yes or Oh yeah how fun yes would it be. You'd you'd have a great show that is you traveling the world eating food. I can have another podcast. It'll be great now now. I've got to be like a show. Oh you had the meeting you got. Yeah what if it's am are. And I'm just like gross care for that. Okay someone cares for it. Yeah I bet you he wrote care for it. Okay so in the the midst of all this. Eric is still seeing his psycho psychiatrist because he he appreciates that relationship and is getting something out and I think he needs to talk to. Somebody killed somebody. Yeah so on October. Thirty first He's he sits down with Dr Rowsell any he says we did it. We kill our parents and he tells them everything how they went down to San Diego to purchase the shotguns with stolen. ID's he's How would they had committed the perfect crime because it was at their house so then have to worry about? DNA cuts already all over the their In like they got the shotgun casings And then he talked about how they dumped the guns in the Myra Tation So that he didn't commit the perfect crime I am because the guns were in their cart. Like being happened to luck out that the investigation didn't spin towards them. At all had it they would have been immediately. They caught I mean that's part of the sociopath. Correct Yeah Yeah. Good point so lyle finds out that Eric Eric has confessed to Dr Zeal in November. Second both brothers go to see the good doctor not such a doctor. So Lyle Search to threaten Dr Oziel is yield. And if you tell anyone blah blah blah blah blah but what they don't know is that Dr Oziel is now taping every single session with them and He's yeah they do that. Oh really therapist contain their sessions while he was doing until use them for notes later he was doing it. They made it tissues very in. So it's one thing to have the recording device out and be like all right. We're starting another to be like I'm GonNa hit this button. Had No idea they were being recorded in. So Dr who actually has a Mitch mistress on the side. I'm ready does yeah. Her name is Jude Allen Smith and They're having this affair. It's going on for a little bit. And then finally it ends. And so she knows about the tapes. Okay and he's a woman scorned yes and so she goes to the police and she's like hey it's not the mafia it's the brothers and so so there's some pillow talk going on uh-huh and she understand okay and so good on her right. Yeah and so you hear them talking like there's so told me recordings and you can tell that it was premeditated like nick say crazy stuff in there is any of this admissible It was it was it was like It was over a few days. They like listen to it. 'cause California is California one party consent law. I don't know so there. Every state has its own rule about being recorded and some states. Both people both parties have to know they're being recorded some states. Only one party has to know they're being recorded and then in and I think other states neither person neither party can no look at the FBI has wire tapping you know what I mean like. There's different rules interesting anything. But then later on in court like she actually switches size and she becomes a witness for the defense and then she says how. Dr Oziel Ezekiel actually beat and raped her. And that how he is this crazy like person he like pressures clients and having sex with him and he had like one client coming clean his house for him as payment for sessions. Yeah he is not a good dude. Everybody crazy yeah. Everyone Jackie you me Kim. The toaster in so On December eight th of Nineteen Ninety two. The brothers are taken into custody. And so now we're jumping into the trial and it becomes a national sensation. it's like a court Court TV Broadcast and this is the first of its kind. This is before four O.. J. Into the media's going crazy like SNL does a skit on the brother we're everywhere everywhere. They were everywhere and it just becomes kind of like a game show and so they are actually tried together. But they had to separate juries Yeah Yeah Go. That's great. No I'm just fascinating so Eric's defense attorney Leslie Abramson she alleges that the brothers were physically and sexually really abused by their father. So she's like without a doubt the did kill their parents. That's not why we're here today. He's arguing to the sympathies of yes. Jury Yeah we're unique why Later in the Barbara Walters interview. Eric says that just before the shootings have his father told him to go up to his room and that they were going to have sex. And that's when Eric was like like no no more and that's when they grabbed the guns A family member Actually goes on the standing confirmed that when Eric was eight years old He told her about the abuse so in like during the Defense like Leslie kept calling them the boys voice and so everyone's like the boys the boys the boys and like Eric's eighteen at this point in lyles twenty one but it's kind of like a psychological play to the one. They were like sweater vest. Yeah Yeah Yeah and glasses to the point where the prosecutor. Because she's in the documentary too. She's like I sorta calling them the boys they got him ahead. Yeah in well play. Okay Yeah did you are snap on stabbing if you haven't listened to cereal. You gotTA listen to serial. It's such a great podcast So the prosecutors on for their side are saying that the killings were premeditated because they had bought the guns beforehand That they said that the excessive force issues against their mother didn't make sense and later They would say that they were trying to put her out of her misery. But I was thinking so in my mind I do believe that they were sexually abused as you're talking can't it be all of it. Yes definitely and like when you watch their testimony like recounting counting. What happened to them? They went through trauma. They they say. Details sat like only a victim would like remember and like at one point. Lyle admits to abusing Eric In you see lie on on the stand telling historian the camera goes over to Eric and you just see him he is yeah unconcealed lake. Yeah I do think that they were abused and maybe the excessive force against their mother was because she knew she knew about it and didn't do anything I don't know but I feel like it's everything I think there's a little truth in everything about this case. Does it justify them killing their parents. Know 'cause they they had an opportunity. There was no like life threatening action. I believe about that night. That was going to happen against them. And so the two juries become deadlocked and both both yes. Yes that's crazy to think the you're on a jury knowing that another jury is also talking about it right. Yeah what a weird. I wonder how common that is strange. so the Los Angeles district attorney immediately announced that the brothers were going to be retried after the deadlocked juries boop now you either refile the charges charges are you let it go So the second trial begins In this one is Less publicized the judge does not allow that hurt the case and then he also didn't allow the sexual abuse allegations to be brought up at all. Where do you sit on that? I know speaks to motive. Yeah it speaks to motive so I think it has to be part in you. It's not just them saying I get you're trying to keep the emotionality out which doesn't even matter if it's just them saying it but they also have a family emily member contesting to it. Yeah I think it should be allowed. It's their truth or what they're saying. Their motive is that's their motive for killing killing their parents so the brothers went. They actually lost all their money during the first trial and and so for the second trial they had to be represented is ended by the state and the jury Rejected the defence a theory that the brothers killed their parents out of fear but rather believed that the murders were committed with the intent kind of gaining control of their parents wealth because they didn't see the sexual abuse. Yeah part of it. I also like that could be both definitely it. Why not yeah definitely Wolf Wolfe In the on July Second Nineteen ninety-six. Lyle and Eric are sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole On September tenth of Nineteen ninety-six. The brothers are separated and they are sent to different prisons in both are classified in a maximum security inmates and were segregated from other prisoners. Just because so famous. Yeah I think so and so now I'm going to jump into life in prison carry So they're like a sensation So so they circuiting thousands of letters a week from fans we should have a whole episode. Prison okay fascinating take And Sad I I would like to sit down with like a psychologist or somebody to like what you started that documentary that I can't find someone confined this documentary. What so I started to watch one and it was all about prison? Wives like women that right to men on death row and start these relationships and Mary them And sometimes have conjugal visits sometimes. Don't and that more often than not. They're incredibly intelligent But they had some sort of trauma in their past. I and there's control over the relationship so it's that you know where they are at all times and it's that you know that you're safe because you know they're imprisoned can't get to you. It's an even if you're visiting them. You're in a secure play. Yeah so there's a lot of control like it's it was so interesting but it was. It was such a depression like I couldn't finish that documentary like I was who I need to take a break from this and I see now I can't find it. I don't know why we're saying youtube or I don't know where it was says. I've looked if you can find it Messages on Instagram. The whole documentary was about that relationships. Yeah crazy So they get all these letters in in January of Nineteen eighty-seven Lyle. Mary's a longtime pen Pal Anna Eric Erickson and she's this former model The marriage lasts us about less than a year and she reportedly caught lyle cheating on her because he was writing to other women so in November of two thousand three lyle than thirty five. Mary's Rebecca SNEED and she's thirty three years old. She's a magazine Editor She's from Sacramento and they have the ceremony in the maximum security visiting area At Mule Creek State Prison. Where's that in California? He aware of her to that Mule Creek state. Prison Mulas my tied to my cocktail. Holy Hell Nice Job binks mule. I'm annoyed but I guess such a good tie right. ooh My God does she. She do it one day. I might prisoners. I feel like I've driven past it and in Lyon. Rebecca have reportedly known each other Prior to this so they're known each other for like ten years but he's been in prison for In interesting kingside fact in California for Mexic- maximum security. I believe there's no conjugal visits to be a minimum. I guess Yeah In June of Nineteen Ninety Nine Eric Than Twenty eight. Mary's Tammi Ruth SECO- MON- She's thirty seven And he's at Folsom State Prison and they get married in the prison with waiting room and their wedding cake was a twinkie from the commissary in and so kind of updates with their case in two thousand sixteen the new California law says that a defendants found guilty after being barred from using physical or sexual abuse as a defense may be allowed to appeal. Yeah so they've been trying to do pills and they haven't been able to In they've been separated rated for like over twenty twenty years at this point and the story old and they keep like riding to be like. Please let us be together today. Right to peddle. Yeah so the leaving leaving writing together like for years They have like a longstanding chess game going on in the letters. Oh that's a trip uh-huh yeah well you got time and then in two two thousand eighteen. They are actually finally granted. Permission to be in the same prison together In so along with that I wonder what the stats are. How Long California's been a no conjugal visits in Maximum and like what the aggression levels are for people. Oh attacking each other. Oh Yeah like if you let them get the rocks off. Are they calmer with each other or does it not matter interesting interesting. Another little bit on the case A letter that was written by Eric onto his cousin. Andy Kano in December of Nineteen nineteen eighty. The eight was found So in the letter He is writing about the molestation by his father. I think it happened. And then at that point eric would've been seventeen and Andy would have been fifteen But Andy has Since passed away so They can ask Andy about it In so Another little side thing. OJ Simpson Yeah so their case was going on a little bit before Rojas. OJ's hits the fan in. It's like a sense sensationalized In so it. OJ gets taken into custody and Eric as actually in the same jail as Oj. Damn and so. He's in his cell and he looks over and he's like what the Fuck is all this commotion and he's been what he can see it on. TV that with like the OJ thing. He's like Oh my God I think. OJ's coming in so he sees them clear to sell and make room for. I wasn't even intentional. Funny into OJ comes in and he starts talking to Oj via and he's like you know you might not remember this. But I actually met you as my brother. You're back in Nineteen Seventy when my dad worked for hurts. OJ was a hurts. Yeah and so and then. OJ would go see his attorney and when he was waiting for his attorney in the waiting room he would start talking to lyle fascinated in so they were all chatty chatty and then so some feel will that because Oj got off in his case. Because Lyle in Eric at this point are waiting for their second trial so because I o.. J. Got off in his case The state wanted retribution. And so when their case came up that's why they got cannon include like we. We need some exact some high profile convictions. Yeah what right now without expanding too much. What are you watching or reading or seeing or listening to like what? I'll tell everyone when and my favorite murderer called out killer cocktail straight loss goddamn mine. Oh you guys. If you first of all I was in bed getting text messages and then Marco Oh polo madness all right fine. I have to respond and O.'s very exciting. So I've been re listening to my favorite murder old episodes and when a new wind comes up. I'll listen to it and so we knew one so I start getting rid of bed. I had a couple of Martinis at this point and dangerous a couple more. I'm upstairs and I'm like getting in my PJ's and then a here Georgia site. Her resources for the Dorky darkest Kelly and Dan case. And I'll go. I covered that. That's Pretty Rad. I wonder how she's going to cover the story and then she's like an to give a shout out to a podcast called killer cocktails and I was like I must have been daydreaming and I heard that in my head so I was like man. I'll go back and listen to again and I'll say who am I got. Oh my God oh my God i. I kept listening to it. And then that's when the text started going out in the Marco Polo's That was like my idols. Yeah I know in like that. Means she listened to our podcast and That was really very exciting. Talk that was super the And I'm very appreciative. So that was really awesome. Yeah what are you listening to watching. I'm watching I think caught up to what have already seen It's always sunny in told Elvia having a grand very funny terrible show really wonderfully then. Oh you guys. supersized thing whatever's long but are wrapping up we got the Regal Unlimited Path. Get Down because if you have a What's the other one if you haven't? AMC Is it like you just got to get in on this watching movies business. So there's a black Friday special anyways we got it. We're going to go see unlimited movies. But what I'm trying to get out is go see knives out. Oh really great is such a great movie that was great. Go See nights out guys. It's so it's it's amazing. What about that other one? No don't go see see that other one IRA guys. We're going to wrap this up as always you've been wonderful. You have been wonderful. Yeah may they into this week's episode of killer cocktails as always on our talent was Jackie Andrea be sure to check out her instagram at Kila cocktails podcast or stop by our website killer. COCKTAILS PODCAST DOT COM for up-to-date information photos contest some more our logos created Michelle firm was amazing art founded Michelle firm designed nine dot com. Our music was created by us. And we'll be back next week. I'm Hashtag Murder Mondays.