25 Burst results for "Eric Marcus"
"eric marcus" Discussed on World News Tonight with David Muir
"ABC's Marcus more with images and we warn you tonight they are disturbing. Tonight eight Houston Man's final moments captured on dramatic body cameras against the glare of flashlights in the throes of chaos twenty seven year old Nicholas Chavez apparently suffering a mental health crisis. The shooting happened April twenty first when officers responded to several calls about a man walking into traffic the edited down video release tonight by Houston police shows what appears to be charged as ignoring officers commands while stabbing himself with a piece of REBA. Chavez repeatedly asking officers to kill. Video shows officers, shooting beanbags, deploying Tasers, and shooting him three times still trying to engage him for several minutes SORTA. Our officers later shoot him again as he tries to get a hold of one of their tasers now. Firing twenty one rounds hitting him multiple times. Today Houston police chief art. Awesome. Vado confirming four of the five officers involved in Chavez's fatal shooting have been fired mayor's comments tonight signaling the weight of their decision and the toll of law enforcement and a nation in crisis no one should conclude. That the dismissal of these offices. Is An indictment on HP date. Fifty, three, hundred police ups. But when you are wrong. When you're wrong There are consequences. David, it was those twenty one shots the mayor and police chief say were unjustified. The Police Union says the officers follow policy training and the law and the DA's office telling us this case will go to a grand jury for possible charges, David Eric Marcus more tonight Marcus. Thank you and there are reports from Louisville Kentucky tonight that a grand jury has been impaneled now to investigate the fatal shooting. Brianna Taylor. Taylor was killed in March by police officers executing a no knock warrant in the middle of the night when officer has been fired none of the three who opened fire been charged any crime. Not. Of that case making national headlines The mother accused in the deaths of her children, Laurie. Valla pleading not guilty today to charges connected to the deaths of two children in Madison. County Idaho prosecutors say she helped her new husband Chad Day. Bell. Bury their bodies and his property. The children had been missing for months. The couple had claimed they were safe history on Wall Street today city group naming Jane Fraser as the first woman chief executive of a major American Bank. She's expected to officially take over in February thirty nine women now running fortune five hundred companies and passing to note tonight the Queen of Thorns. I wanted to. Dame Diana Rigg their and game of thrones has died known for her roles in the sixties TV show the avengers to James Bond and of course game of thrones she told the BBC I loved playing bad characters..
"eric marcus" Discussed on Based On a True Story
"So we only know from accounts of at the time of what happened and the filmaker thought that a pretty good job of not overdoing. I think his biggest mistake was having Danny. The hero of the film. Throw the first burke but Danny serves a useful purpose storytelling purpose because he is our is he is the innocence coming from the Midwest doesn't know anything about gay life or the village, and so we get to see it through his is it just happens to be completely made up and asking for trouble because the still present such contested history already at to portray it in a way that suggests the hero of the event is a blonde white boy from the Midwest. When in fact, the street kids were from a range of races enough MRIs and it was a big mistake tomorrow. You mentioned it went on for six nights, but we only really saw one in the movie. Was it all around the stonewaller? Did it start spread out a little bit more? It's spread out into the streets of the village. So a year later. There was an pride March that was called the Christopher Street Liberation Day march on the anniversary of the one year anniversary stonewall. It was specifically called Christopher Street that which is stonewall as Liberation Day March because. The Year of activism that occurred after stonewall with deliberate the streets of the village, they of the focus to be on stonewall because stole always a mafia owned bar that closed two weeks after the stonewall uprising. So why would you celebrate a place like that? I mean years since it's become iconic and around the world people celebrate stonewall all they know really most people is stonewall was a place where gay people fought back against the police it's represents freedom from oppression. One thing that I did quibble with in a film, they call it the liberty of the Gay Liberation March in the film that occurs a year later, and they compress the time line in such a way that suggests that it happened. Very quickly after the storm uprising and that just happened. And in fact, there was an enormous amount of or using that went into that I march one year from stonewall uprising. And involved engaging with twenty different organizations, Homa file organizations on the east coast that all agreed to that. March actually as long story involved with a few questions about it I'm happy to answer that was actually going to be my next question had to do with the march because. Like you said you that was something that really struck me about the movie to it happened. So quickly, like the timing in the movie, you have the uprising and then there's a couple like we see deigning go go home visits his sister he's like Oh, we're going to have a parade next month to commemorate and then a couple of seconds later they're having the parade boom I thought that was next month, right? Yeah. I'm assuming this then transitioned into the pride parades that we see around the US today is kind. Of How that went? Yes. Yes. I'll tell you how it happened in the shortest version of the story. So from nineteen, sixty, five to nineteen, sixty, nine, there was a march was called the annual reminder in front of Independence Hall in Philadelphia on July Fourth to remove this is organized by Frank Kennedy the management society several other organizations. It was to remind Americans that gay people didn't have their rights that they could be fired from their jobs that they could be sorted of the military. So it's called the annual reminder. So the annual reminder was held. On July Fourth Nineteen, sixty nine just a few days after the stonewall uprising like it had been every year. And that fall in the in November of sixty nine there was a meeting of the East Coast. Regional Conference of Homophobia organizations doesn't just roll off your tongue here. It's ERC. Oh, they met in November of Nineteen sixty-nine in Philadelphia and for young. People. Ellen Brody. Linda Roads Craig Rodwell and Fred Sergeants. wrote up a resolution. These were young activists they resolution asking that the remind your day March being moved in nineteen seventy two New York City to mark the one year anniversary of the stonewall uprising and that the people who attended should be able to address however they want to. And that all the other organizations around the country should have marches as well and have them every year thereafter to mark the stonewall uprising. That's how we wound up with these. Celebrations March marches that occur every year either on the anniversary or around the anniversary of the stonewall sometimes at other times of the year. It was a well organized well planned events and it was called the Christopher Street Liberation Day March. Not the Gay Liberation March. I don't know. Danny. Actually. Participated probably were blonde voice from west who did. But it wasn't surprisingly diverse group of people and it was the largest gathering of openly gay people in the world ever there were somewhere between two and three or four thousand people who marched from the village up Sixth Avenue to Central Park where there was a gay am or a B. Him those were gatherings of people were that weren't organized just a chance to be together and celebrate, and there were thought to be between five and ten thousand people at. That gay in Central Park following the first march of Sixth Avenue. Wow. That's I. Mean That's pretty good attendance for fresh for the first one. Yeah. The Reminder Day marches got in Philadelphia got several dozen people. So now this was the even the organizers couldn't believe what happened that they started out actually with a few hundred people at the beginning of March and one of the chance was off the sidewalks into the street and people joins the march along the way. There's a scene in the movie that was just it was so so painfully clear shade. So Dan's mother and sister show up they've taken the train or bus from the Midwest to be at the March and Danny sees his mother and sister on the side of on the sidewalk in his mother's gotten her new hairdo and they look so happy of course, the father who's the Coach was not there but I'm thinking Danny go over and hug them. They came all the way from the Midwest to see you and he just looks back in waves at them and keeps marching and I'm thinking there's something wrong here and I didn't get to right the movie. But if you're GONNA go if you go all in with the blonde jokes in the Mid West. got. To hug his mother and sister who gone all that way to see her in the march. I agree, and that leads into another question I want to ask. So if you make this movie, If you did direct movie, what's a key thing that you would change about it? Well, the problem is you have to change the main thing about it so you have no move. There is a great movie, a great narrative movie to be made about. The stories are really something and you can use the story as an entry point since what New York City was like in the late nineteen, sixty s sixty s some of these characters grew up and what was their life experience like and how did ray come to be on the street? How did Conga come to be on the street? Why did we have to have a blond boy from the Mid West the be the is the story. So there's A terrific story to be told that if I were to do it and I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't be the ones run I might assemble a team. I wouldn't be the writer I would not have my eyes and ears or my guide you through this piece of history be a blond kid from the Midwest because you're just asking for trouble because kids of color played such a central role in the uprising they were kids who challenged the police i. They were what I describe St Kitts fifteen sixteen seventeen year old kids who have nothing to lose. So how do you make a movie about Stonewall when you center the story on a kid who's coming from the Mid West is going to go to Columbia scholarship. So. That I think was a fatal flaw of the film no can see past that. But if you pass that than what you see a film that. So laden with. Shane's that it's hard to really. Oh. It's just still Ethel Merman? Ethel Merman Sarah saw herself dressed up someone dressed up as yourself stripping awfully young boys pants. Oh my God. It was just. Iraq to thank you Dan forgetting you to watch this film because.
"eric marcus" Discussed on Based On a True Story
"The Ed Murphy I knew was the reconstituted Ed Murphy? So the film portrayed somebody who was there were gay people who took advantage of other people. Were just we're human. We are equal opportunity opportunists. Well, like you said, like you said before they're trying to earn a living like they're trying to make their way unfortunately sometimes, that means putting other people down in order to survive. Yes. So so I learned something from the film I'm hoping that was close to accurate because Ed Murphy comes off as a terrible person I'm guessing the scene where he picks out this young Danny from the Midwest to an an older gay couple one of whom is dressed up like Ethel Merman and for your listeners who don't know who Ethel Merman is go to youtube and look Ethel Merman and that was how this older gay man was dressed up. In their fancy apartment with his husband and. And trying to rip off the clothes of young Danny who who every time. Anyone tried to do to him what they portray in the film. He gets the same expression on his face of both the horror mixture of horror and Oh my God, I can't believe this is happening to me and. We're supposed to imagine what's happening down. Then I, it was just a pathetic scene, but the ED Murphy figures into this because he's the one who's pimping out this young kid I don't doubt that there were people like Ed Murphy operating in that environment at that time. So I have to go back and read David Cars Book David. Carter recently died. His book was he spent ten years writing a book about stone definitive history of the stonewall uprising in everything that occurred around it. So for anyone who's interested in knowing more that really is the the authoritative account speaking of the uprising we're at the point in the movie where we see the uprising itself or it's been called the stonewall riots in history as well. The movie has the date as June twenty, eighth, nineteen, sixty nine. We mentioned earlier Danny's the first one to throw the brick the movie. Omega is. First of all judy. Garland who for for people? Who Don't she? She was an iconic singer who's very popular among especially game mentioned a lot of gay fans and is famous for the movie the wizard of Oz, there's been much debate about whether or not her desk which coincided with the stonewall uprising. Her body was on display the twenty seventh of June at Campbell's funeral home on the upper east side. So people went to see her body and then some of them went down to the bar. But. It's not believed that her death had anything to do with it, and if the car theorized that these street kids probably didn't even know who Judy Garland was or had no attachment to her in the way that older gay men did because the way it's portrayed in the film, it suggests that. One of the character ray goes uptown to see judy. Garland body and that they're upset about her death, it's likely that that had nothing to do with it. But as I'm watching the scene unfold outside the stonewall and you just know know Ryan that's about to occur and I know how this plays out and one of the accounts someone throws a rock breaks window and I see Danny arguing with a believe it was Congo Congo woman we that's how congresswoman woman was known by Martin Voice and she's just known as Conga in the film. Stakes brick out of her bag. And Danny suddenly has the brick and his hand and thinking Oh, please domes Jenny Danny shouldn't be the ones that throw the first brick because it's going to ruin your life screenwriter if you portray the first person who throws a brick at the stonewall and as a blond boy from the Midwest because. Even. If it was true. That shows every myth about stonewall and it wasn't true. It wasn't a blond boy from the Midwest who through the first rock or brick no one knows exactly who threw the first rock as with any riot or uprising that get started wherever you're standing. There's a different perspective on what's happening. So, as was described to me, what happened at first was people started throwing coins. At stonewall INN and that was to say to the police he came for your payoff. Here's some more. And I learned that from Sylvia. Rivera. Who is one of the people who was alleged to be a participant of the stone uprising I didn't know that detail and the police were inside right because in the movie we see the police inside. So I'm just picturing this in my head, they're throwing coins at stonewall with the police essentially barricaded inside. Before the police are barricaded. Okay. At least that's how it happened to throwing coins, and what happens is there's somebody does throw a rocket breaks a window. I was glad to see them the way the filmmaker portrayed the uprising is pretty close to how it's been described to me by people who were there, and by Lucian Truscott Fourth, who is a village voice reporter who was the scene at the time published the first one of the first articles on July third. Of, sixty nine describing what he saw because as it's often portrayed male or described is a much bigger riot than it actually was. So people talking about Molotov cocktails and firebombs and what you see in the film as the kids squirting lighter fluid on the plywood behind the glass window that has been broken and they set fire to the plywood. That's about the extent of how much flame there was. There were Molotov Co cocktails weren't firebombs. If, you compare what happened at stonewall in terms of riot ranking. Given what was going on in the nineteen sixties the late nineteen sixty with confrontations with the police and riots in the major cities it was a very small uprising. What made it different was that it was gay people fighting back against the police and instead of the police chasing gay people you have these street kids who people thought of as weak and fearful you have street kids chasing the police through. The village and nobody could believe that that was happening. So that's what made it unique, and then the the unrest went on for total of six nights it ebbs and flows, but I was impressed that they that they didn't overdo it. There's a kick wine that's portrayed in the film of the kids doing a kick line and doing a chance we are the stonewall girls we were her hair in curls. Where our genes below are these there various lyrics that I've heard but as the daily news wrote about it and this New York daily state wrote about it in sixty nine. They suggested that it was a line of drag queens in full Regalia in high heels in lafont. which actually is much better. I love that myth better than the actual reality which was restricted some moderate modify drag when I talk to Martin. Boyce was at stonewall about the high heels. He said, we did wear high heels to the stone. While you were flats you couldn't run from the police wearing high heels. So in that regard I, thought that the filmmaker did a good job. Of portraying the scene and with riot police with their shields and batons all of that described. Now we can't compare it to actual film of what happened at stonewall because there is none. You can't compare it to hundreds of photographs that were taken because as far as we know, there were a handful of photographs taken fe the most famous ones taken by Fred Madeira are a five of them that I've seen..
"eric marcus" Discussed on Based On a True Story
"Off away old line organization that there assimilation simulation combination isn't afterward coats and ties, and it's looking at that organization through the Contemporary Lens of Nineteen, sixty nine. You might think that they were old fashioned group but when frank founded the Managing Society of Washington DC in nineteen, sixty one, there were no protests out on the street. Frank is the one who initiated the first protest from the White House in Nineteen, sixty five and the reason he wanted everyone to dress appropriately at least if he considered appropriate men in suits and ties women and skirts and blouses and heels. He was arguing that gay people should not be discriminated against in employment and he said, if you WANNA be employed look employable, he also believe that your appearance shouldn't get in the way of the message and that's why he had people dressed the way they did the signs at all the protests were uniform. So. It was a very careful branding effort for a people who had been largely hidden most Americans had never seen on the sexual before. But as the sixties unfolded, the nineteen sixties and young people became radicalized young people felt that what the mashing society was doing with old fashioned they shouldn't have to dress a certain way to protest and eventually because in large part because of the stonewall uprising that earlier generation was swept away and a new group of younger radical people came into the movement and the movement exploded it went from between forty and sixty organizations to nearly fifteen hundred organizations in the first year after stonewall. If Frank Kennedy saw how he was portrayed in this film, he would be rolling over in his grave. Because he was he was a real firebrand and he's portrayed as sort of this. mousy guy in a suit talking before a group that. Politely and Trevor Who's kind of a cool version cooler version of a managing member kind of smoke in hot guy clear. You just knew Danny from the Midwest was GONNA fall for. and. He's just he's portrayed as this manipulative user buckler also an activist. I found his character particularly annoying and repellents but the guy who the the film tried to do is create a tension between. Mattachine the old line group and the younger activists, which is actually a true tension. I'd just objected to the way he did it because again, it seemed like such A. Cliche that Danny was betrayed by trevor and Trevor found a younger man you know hammock sense. Yeah? Yeah I mean the. The gears grind. So loudly in this film, you can just he'll the index cards lined up on the court or It's interesting. You mention frank getting fired from NASA and I think there was even a moment there where Danny's like work for NASA when he when you talk to him so I like that little detail there of that. It sounds like that part of it might have been you know in a mosh to frank yes. Well, Franken wants it to work for for what was. Becoming NASA, but he lost his job and that was the end of it for him because any job in the federal government for an astronomer required security clearance and no person who was known to be gay could get security clearance. They ruled career Oh. Yeah. Well, that probably goes back to the being categorized as mentally ill similar concept to you know teacher in in that aspect. That was that was. The blackmail issue less the mental illness issue. Okay going back I. Guess you mentioned to the the red scare and and tying all that into it and Stood out to me while I was watching the scene with frank campion and the mattachine society. He said something to the effect of how the American people will start to understand that firing us just for being gay is plain wrong and of course, it was this year twenty twenty. If you're listening to this in the future that the US Supreme Court ruled gay and transgender employees are protected under the civil. Rights. Act of nineteen, sixty four so that just happened. In twenty twenty, but they're talking about this sort of thing and twenty fifteen movies at back in nineteen sixty nine. So seems like as long overdue. Are there any other examples of similar decades? Long fights just to get basic rights welfare lgbtq people? Yes. Leaving aside other civil rights movements, which took much longer even than Lgbtq people the right to serve in the military the effort to remove gay people for the military began towards the end of World War Two. The first protest about gay people military was nineteen, sixty four at the Whitehall induction center in the financial district in New York City it was the from what I understand the first public protests by gay people ever in nineteen sixty four and it was over gay people being thrown out of the military and the argument was if you're gonNA throw someone in the military for being gay least give him an honorable discharge in don't ruin his life. So that was about it was fought for decades as well, and the issue of mental illness was also fought over a period of time I mean it's it's shameful that the issue about employment is this long and there's still no law protecting gay. People. Against Discrimination a national law against discrimination in a combination. So in the cities and states where you're not protected by local laws, you can be thrown out of your apartment for being here. I guess I never realized that that seems crazy. Or not served at a restaurant. Wow. So that's all up to that state levels at city level or or is that the establishment instead of state or local? It depends upon the state in which you live. Yeah. I'm no expert on it, but you can still run into problems. Wow. Is there are these cases about Baker's not wanting to bake cakes for gay wedding I think I've seen that in the news at and it's just one of the like really. Don't you have better things to do you know. What is a wedding cake? They aren't asking for a cake with their private parts reproduced on top of the cake. It's just their names to cake the cake. Cake cake. I love that about the film that was a two thousand, fifteen film in which county is talking about gay people and Employment and discrimination, and here we are all these years later and it was a decades-long battle game protections in employment. And it's not to be underestimated what a huge deal about is he I and I I appreciate your pointing out some of the fights that are still ongoing that still need to be addressed for. Sure. Going back to the movie one of the villains one of the main villains I guess I should say that we see in the movie is Ron Perlman's character a guy named Ed Murphy and as the movie explains it at takes advantage of people him some out. We see this happening with Dana Film but then at the end of the movie, there's a bit of taxed at the very end that explains Ed Murphy ended up as a gay activist and was posthumously made Grand Marshal the Newark Pride. Parade. Powell. Did the movie do showing the character arc of Murphy? Have done a better job of reading David Carter's book on Stonewall because I'm guessing he went into detail about I always heard something about it but.
"eric marcus" Discussed on Based On a True Story
"We see the real people in the movie at the end and it talks About people like Marsha p Johnson, Bob Kohler more pine but the movie doesn't mention any of the main characters in the movie at the end only saying that it's dedicated to unsung heroes of the stonewall riots. So as I was watching this I, got the idea that that probably means the main characters are not real but perhaps their fictional characters that were designed to tell a story of how not everyone gets their name in the history books, but they can still have an impact on history so. In a movie based on real people who were living on Christopher Street in New York, city. Well, I everyone but Danny from Indiana the main character in the film. This was a very earnest film I have to say. When I read all the criticism of the film when it first came out in two thousand fifteen, what I didn't realize. That it was terrible film. That it's not. There isn't in such a history that's problematic. It's a terrible move. And so terrible that at times it was funny when it wasn't supposed to be funny but one of my. Acquaintances friends colleagues is a man named Martin Boyce who I've interviewed at stone while he was one of the street kids. But unlike most of the three kids he had a stable home he went to private school during the day and did what's called scare drag the evening with his friends who out Christopher Park across from the Stonewall Inn and scared was partial drag makeup long hair out some women's clothing but not not authorised and Martin was a consultant. To the film and when I asked Martin about it, he said is actually a lot of it was quite accurate in the portrayals of the people who were there and I feel Martin's fingerprints on this because some of the names of the people who were of the street kids were names of Martin's friends, and some of the the characterization seem to be similar to what Martin has described to me and I wonder if the character ray was Sylvia Rae Rivera. So. We were rose become a Nikon transact. Vist was thought to have been at the stonewall uprising lucid debate about that or some dispute about it. So so so I think some of the characters were composites, but the life that was shown in that film of these kids who've been thrown out who came to New York either from the from from New York City itself or from outside of New, York and we're living on the streets and making money however, they could mostly by. Those stories are. There's a scene in particular where Danny the the. It's such a such a cliche. The blonde boy from Indiana comes to New York and descend falls in with this group of street kids and he's going to Colombia and his his parents rejected minutes data's the coach should the football team and he's on the football team he falls in love with the Oh, my God it was like it was crushed under the weight of the the cliches, the numerous Moore's cliches. But in there there is there is some historical fact but then is completely made up. There is no from Indiana who threw the first brick and stone. Okay well, that was going to be a later question I asked to because yeah he does throw the I. Could come back to that. You talking about how it's hard to imagine things. There was something as I was watching the movie that was. It was hard to imagine what it must've been like. That was the scene where we see Danny in high school and the whole class watching this educational video right it's how not a homosexuals or passive and then like to hang out in public restrooms and It suggests that your life is going to be at risk if they're nearby right and so it just seemed like it is propaganda film that they're trying to incite fear and hatred in the schools was that something that really happened in classrooms in sixties it I'm too young to have seen those those films I grew up principally in the seventies I was born in Nineteen fifty eight and was eleven years old at the time of Stonewall at PS ninety, nine public school in New York City. Although classes out by by then but I've never been to Greenwich village although my parents hung out in Greenwich does they were they were beaten makes my dad was a communist so but I actually didn't see Greenwich Village until after I graduated from high school even though I live on a subway line that had a stop. In. Greenwich Village. That's how shelter and I was living in what I call the Oklahoma or the Iowa of city. So those those were real and they were shown to classes and kids were warns about the creepy Perv you're going to come across in the park and he made offer you a ride in his car and and watch out for people like that, and there was an effort to warn young people about the dangers of homosexuality because they didn't really understand their understanding homosexuality was quite different from our understanding today you could be recruited into this life that they were men lurking in the bushes waiting to drag you into to this life that so horrible. But if you try once it'll be what you do for the rest of your life. The first time I saw those probably their of propaganda films that are shown frequently and as part of documentaries and were included in this film. The first one I saw when I thought, no nobody would show that kind of thing but they do and you can imagine the terror that struck in the hearts of young gay people and what it would do to poison the minds of straight kids in. Their understanding of their lgbtq classmates when I was growing up in New York in my high school. There was one kind of effeminate gay kit. His name was monty. and. You didn't to be. Monte. Because he got teased he got teased mercilessly there was nobody out in my high school in the class of nineteen, seventy six. So I can certainly relate to the experience of of this kid in Indiana once he was found out being tortured and being shot at his parents house that was that was something that happened then and happens to this day. Wow I mean I. could imagine how if everybody else is saying these are people to watch out for then it's like well, of course, that's GonNa mess you up. If, that's what you're. taught to believe that's GonNa mess you up and that's one corrupt with I didn't see those propaganda films but I can tell you when I was a teenager fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years old I realized I was gay. I was just I am even buy them homosexuality of the roof from that list of mental illnesses. I was crushed. I thought it was the most horrible thing that could happen to me that I had been the best little boy in the world. I've done everything, right? I. Was good at school. I didn't take drugs. I didn't stay out late except for my senior prom in highschool and here was this terrible thing that I knew would destroyed my life and disappoint my family and that was that was so long after stonewall it was just that was in the mid nineteen seventies. Wow, that's i..
"eric marcus" Discussed on Based On a True Story
"To help us separate fact from fiction in the movie, I'm excited to be joined by journalist founder and host of the making gay history podcast Eric Marcus. Eric has one of those remarkable careers were I could spend the next ten minutes just listing all the incredible work he's done over his career. But for our purposes today I'd like to highlight three key resources that will help you dive deeper into the true story. We're going to learn about today. The first is Eric's book called making history the struggle for gay and Lesbian Equal Rights Nineteen forty-five to. Nineteen Ninety that book won the Stonewall Book Award. In the nonfiction category nineteen ninety-three the second is a more recent book of Eric's called making gay history the half-century fight for lesbian and gay equal rights and last. But certainly, not least if you're listening to this than I, know you're a fan of podcasts. So go check out Eric's extremely popular podcast that I mentioned a moment ago called making gay history. Okay number four, we get Eric on the line. It's time set up our game to trues and ally. If you knew the show, here's how it works. I'm about to say three things. Two of them are true and that means one of them is ally. Are you ready. Okay, here they are number one. Danny winters did not throw the first brick wall. Number to the stonewall uprising was organized by the first gay rights organization in the world. Number three, the stonewall uprising led to the pride parades. We see today. Got Him. Now is you're listening to our story today. Your challenge is to find the two facts scattered somewhere throughout the episode, and then by a simple process of elimination, you'll be able to find out which one is lie, and of course, we'll do a recap at the end of the episode to see how well you did. All right. Now, it's time to chat with Eric about the historical accuracy of stonewall..
"eric marcus" Discussed on American History Tellers
"Let's talk about this this change. The splintering of gay right activism at the time of the stonewall uprising. The the existing infrastructure was there, but he was a rather conservative state approach of assimilation. Where did that change? especially in terms of racial and socioeconomic groups during the late sixties, we'll thinks it already begun changing before stonewall the first of them. The more radical organizations was founded actually nineteen, sixty, one when Frank Kenny founded, what was an independence chapter of the Mattachine Society in Washington DC where he came up with the idea of protesting in public, which was a radical move in those years I wouldn't call the early movement to simulation as they were responding to the era in which they live, they were trying to form an identity and figure out A. A way to live in the world that they were presented with and The word assimilation to me seems is is is too pejorative for what they were. They were actually they were radicals in their time, but the world was shifting quickly, and you can see the difference in just images from the annual reminder protests from nine hundred, sixty five to nineteen sixty-nine in Philadelphia Independence Hall it was held every July fourth by a group of gay and Lesbian People. You see pictures of that, and how uniformly people are dressed and for the most part. It's all white, not entirely because there's a famous person named Ernest who you can see in some of those. Those. Photographs an African American woman, wearing white framed cats, is sunglasses, but it was predominantly white movement and what you see coming happening toward the late sixties is an influx of younger people and a big mix of of identities in terms of of race and ethnicity and many more women, so if you look at the first pride, March New York. City in nineteen seventy and you look at the photographs. It is stunningly mixed stunningly diverse it fits with the era. Young people were very involved in the antiwar movement in the black. Civil Rights movement the Women's Movement. So the gay-rights movement tracked along with those movements as well and drew in large numbers of. Of People in a diverse range, but it was also nineteen, seventy, nine, hundred, sixty nine, and there was still misogyny to deal with and racism to deal with, so it was a complicated time, and very quickly after the initial organizations were formed the new organizations that were formed right after Stonewall, they started to splinter as different groups found their voice founder energy and decided they wanted to go their own way like the radical lesbians and people of Color. It was just it was a complicated. Stu that led to a lot of creativity, but also an enormous amount of conflict within the movement. Right after stonewall also right after stonewall Alfredo Diong been your. a young gay man who is grievously injured trying to escape a police station fearing he might be deported. became the center of an enormous media attention. The picture that ran in in the daily news was gruesome in an suited that tabloids salacious tastes, but I was. I was wondering if there isn't something more than just tabloid interest that drove the media. was there a sort of awakening to gay rights issues after stonewall? In the broader me, there was because suddenly there were a lot of people before the before the style uprising, the protests for small, and suddenly with the pride March itself in in June of nineteen seventy you. You had a thousands of gay people in the street, and even before that right after weeks after the storm will uprising, there was a protest march of hundreds of gay people, and no one had seen this before, so it was of interest to the media suddenly. Who are these people? And what are they doing? And then with the Diego Velez incident where he jumped out the window of a police station after a bar raid than hundred and seventy people were arrested the same exact. Inspector Pine lead that raid at a an after hours. Club in a basement called the snake bit village. The the pictures were of. Impaled on offense that is dramatic, and that led to a very quickly organized protests of hundreds of gay, people who marched to the police precinct that had led the rate of the snake. So? Yes, there was absolutely more interest by the media. Because suddenly there was this group of people and not just in New York City. who are. On the march that couldn't be ignored anymore. So looking at the change in the way the media dealt with people before, and after still.
Revisiting the Archive: Larry Kramer
"I've talked before in this series revisiting the archive about anger. How it can fuel action? How an anger is partnered with love? It can produce a kind of righteous rage that propels us those of us who lived through the AIDS crisis. Know about it. Some of US learned it from Larry Kramer who died this week in Manhattan where he's lived for. Decades Larry was famous for being one of the first billions to sound the alarm during that last epidemic. The one that began forty years ago he was on the front lines even before aids was called AIDS and became a global epidemic at swept away more than thirty million lives before AIDS. Larry was best known for his work as a screenwriter and author but the virus that was claiming so many lives in the political indifference political negligence that greeted it turned Larry into a very public activist. His friends were dying and he felt compelled to do something more than to just bury the dead and mourn their loss in nineteen. Eighty-two Larry co-founded a gay men's health crisis now known as GM five years later he co-founded act up the AIDS coalition to unleash power. Act Up came to be known for its brilliant use of public protests to bring attention to the epidemic by early nineteen eighty nine. When I I met Larry AIDS take in more than sixty thousand lives. Most of them. Gay Men Larry quickly earned a reputation as an uncompromising firebrand with a fierce temper. I'm not proud of it. But that kind of person generally inspires me to run in the other direction. I was more than a little anxious. I approached the door to Larry's apartment in a building that fronts Washington Square Park in New York. City's Greenwich Village. As I said when this episode originally aired I got myself worked up. Nothing I brace myself for a tornado and found the teddy bear. Here's the same. Larry welcomed me into a spacious apartment and showed me into his all white book line living room and I took a seat opposite him across a broad desk as I said at my tape recorder and attach the Mike to his shirt. We talked about how we both had wanted to find a husband early in life and settle down and that led us back in time to Larry's memories as it confused and Unhappy College student in the Early Nineteen fifties. I pressed record interview with Larry Kramer Thursday January twenty six thousand nine hundred eighty nine at the home of Larry Kramer in New York City. Interviewer is Eric. Marcus tape one side one. When I went to Yale I thought I was the only gay person in the world and tried to kill myself because I was so lonely. Did try to What am I think that was fifty? Three was the year my freshman year. Yeah is awful. I mean I do want to go back that far curious because I was a college student on seventy six desperately unhappy. We're at Vassar College. There were there were a lot of gays. They weren't that many people think there were a lot if there were so many gays. Why was I so unhappy? Miserable person and And deaths seemed very appealing at moments during my freshman year when I was dating a woman in making off the man by in life and fifty three must have been much more difficult than seventy six at Vassar. You can even start in shifty. Three Easter I knew I was gay. I think from the day I was born and I think that there have been I. I now know that there were isolate. They were experiences all through before. I even got to Yale. And they were all covert in guilt. Inducing on on everybody's part so the it seemed as if all those early years were spent trying to deny these feelings the feelings would sort of get to strong erupt in and I would have an experience. Which would autumn always make me feel guilty in one way or another and then you put it you become. Sylvia's would come down for a while a week a week or two and Yale was awful. There was a gay bar called parolees. It was awful the time when I finally have the courage to go there. It was only two blocks from campus. But it was a million years away. It was very dark and grey and inside and smokey and and filled with old old older man and I only went the once and somebody picked me up. A car drove for like hours before we found a place that was quiet to do it and then he drove me back where you didn't say a word all of that list of yourself. I eight two hundred aspirin. Oh my God talk about slow and Miss. You must have been pretty miserable to swallow two hundred and yours anymore. Will after you wanted out. Was that who knows. It's a scene. I'll never forget the scene of taking pills the Yup and find you're still better. I didn't wake up. I I went to bed and I got scared and I call. The campus. Police came took me to the hospital and put myself and that was in woke then I fell asleep and I woke up in a room with bars and after grace new haven hospital and there. Was this very unpleasant hospital psychiatrist. Who said all right Mr Cramer? Why did you do it and I go fuck yourself or words to that end he said? I'm now you're not going to be let out of this hospital until you tell us why you did it. And I just had a few rubbed me the wrong way and I wouldn't have told who who knew why I did it anyway. So my brother who's always sort of looked after me came and got me out and he was friends with the dean of Freshmen. My brother had been the before me and And it was you know ordinarily when something like that happen you were shipped off to go join the army really in those days. Yeah and then you come back to Yale and you've grown up but they let me stay. If I went to the University of Coyote. Just his name was Dr Fry Clement Fry. And he was about in the sixties he had silver hair and it was a good looking man he whereas reptiles button down shirt and You just knew that. He cared more about Yale and he ever did about you
"I'm Eric. Marcus out of the closet and into your podcast feeds once again speaking to you from my guest room closet revisiting the making gay history archive as a coping mechanism in the Cova crisis. I hope these trips to the archive. Help you a little. They helped me a lot here on West Twentieth Street. In New York City. Things have been slowly opening up the Jihad place on the corner. The French pastry shop across the street and soon our favorite restaurant down the block but normal not even close noisy traffic and streams of chattering tourists on the way to the high line park have been replaced by chattering. Birds Looking for mates or just hanging out the city that never sleeps is a surprisingly sleepy place to live at least in my neighborhood where many people have fled to second homes or other parts of the country so this is the Tenth Week that my partner. Barney and I have been sheltering in place here in the US at least nine hundred thousand or dead more than a million and a half infected along with a cold statistics. There's been much discussion about how this pandemic is the great equalizer that no matter who you or the size of your bank account. You're not protected from this virus. It's true that viruses don't discriminate but our society does and this virus has cast in stark terms how systemic inequality the termines. How likely you are to get sick and if you get sick how likely you are to die and that brings me to Perry Watkins. Another of the many people I interviewed who is just trying to live his life when fate and in Perry's case racism cast him in a very different role one that could easily have landed him. Six feet under Perry Watkins was Nineteen Year Old American college student living in Germany and studying dance when his draft number was called. It was thousand nine sixty eight. The war in Vietnam was at its peak. But Harry figure that after a quick trip to the army's induction center in Tacoma Washington he'd be back in Europe doing what he loved. He thought he had nothing to worry about. Because the military didn't want homosexuals and Perry made no secret of the fact he was gay in life or on the army's intake form that he had to fill out turns out he plenty to worry about. So here's the scene. It was mid November nineteen eighty nine and I was sitting in Perez semi dark living room in Tacoma Washington. It was too cold to take my coat off. Perry was bundled up to and explained that he couldn't afford to heat. The House. Perry was a handsome man with close cropped. Hair a beard and abroad smile. His every gesture offered a glimpse into his past as both dancer and a drag performer. I Clinton microphone to Perry's jacket and press record interview with Perry Watkins Sunday. November nineteenth nineteen thousand nine five thirty PM at the home of Perry Watkins in Tacoma Washington. Interviewer is Eric. Marcus tape one side one. I want to go back in history. How's that we're working our way back? Honey asks granted good very this is this is. This is kind of interview. I love talking to a lot of people the most torture to me is. When I ask a question you know. You don't think I'm going to get those kinds of answers okay Did you know you wanted to work in the military? I didn't want to check the box because I wanted to go in the military. You didn't weren't you know that's why I checked the box? If I wasn't planning to go into the most I check the box. Yes and I was drafted anyway. You check the box. That said homosexuality. Would you like to see a copy of the former leave you? I think you checked with the sexual. Yes you were drafted. Yes would you you draft nineteen sixty eight Vietnam War. Good thinking I would school yes. I'm not that Oh so we shopped. Yes what's absolutely? How did someone tell me the chronology of this you you you wit? You've got your shit. There's this thing to look everybody's as what you didn't realize that most people don't realize I was not trying to go into the military. That's why I told them I was. That's why I find it absolutely ludicrous. That the army is in court saying we don't want this man. Well why the Hell did you take me right so you you know? Excuse me and why am I the one that is being accused of being at fault? It is amazing but no I check the block yes. They sent me into a psychiatrist. Who said to me baited me? It was funny and I knew what he was doing. He came in and he says why. Did you check the blocks and I went because you asked me to fill the format honestly well. Did you object to going in the military? No I didn't want to go in the military whom did right but I certainly had no objection to serving my country. You used to be owns extremely so who I really check. The box was because I thought if I go into the military. I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm good. I know myself well enough to know that so when I get thrown out mom will be angry if I lie. That was why I checked the box. When I put out my mom will be more angry with me for lying that. Why didn't I just tell the Damn truth to begin with so then he said well what you like to do. I said well the same thing you know anyone who was gay likes to do Orlando Sex. Whatever no I mean specifically put this psychiatrist I looked him and said you mean to tell me your license okay. Because you don't what a homosexual does I? He got angry with me. I WanNa know what you like to do. So he made me tell him that I liked and get fucked in the ASS specifically then he turns around and says. Do you ever date women now. Stop and think about that. Do you think this is a man who's just made me say I like to Suck Dick. You're not gonNA ask me. Do I ever sleep with women. Do I ever have sexual intercourse limited over Fuck Women? You know you're going say. Do you ever date women. Well now. What clean do you know who doesn't who said yes? His finding was that I was homosexual but qualified for military service now according to the regulation and this is what I find it amusing because the army's always shooting about our regulations says homosexual can't be in the military you're right you're regulation required. That man make a determination that if I was suitable for military service that I was lying that I am not homosexual. The only way you can put someone in the military who check that box. Yes Sadr isn't Adrian. I'm draft walk into the draft board DOT com. Oh walked up. The steps and three guys looked up that I'd gone high school with from the time that I was in junior high school. I told people that was good. Why I had this relationship with the young man that told someone in my mechanical drawing class and I walked in and he told them
Revisiting the Archive: Joyce Hunter
"So here's the seem. Joyce greeted me at her apartment door in sunnyside queens with a smile at the time. Joyce was just shy of fifty and had close cropped curly. Dark hair and wore large wire rim glasses. She was dressed in dark slacks and a button down shirt. She led me into bright living room. We took our seats and I attached microphone to her collar. Press Record interview with Joyce Hunter of the Hedrick Martin Institute on December Ninth Friday. Nineteen eighty eight locations. Sunnyside queens interviewer is Eric. Marcus tape one side one house. One in Staten Island nineteen thirty nine. I was born in a home for unwed mothers. My mother and father were not married. My mother was in what the Docs Ju plant. And My mother by the way was sixteen sixteen successors Kinda young and My mother got ill with Hepatitis. And then we were taken away when my mother was in the hospital. Today they call them group homes in those days. They called the more jobs though. Your parents were in dead from the time that I was five until I was fourteen. I was in. Did you have any sense during those years that you were somehow different? Different different definitely different. Especially when I was around ten I knew but you know you don't know what it is and it was like number one. They used to take us into movies every Saturday and that was crazy. Only about the women was only thing that I would focus on. You know what it is. You recognize difference before you recognize Sameness and I didn't feel the same as everybody else. So fourteen. You left the orphanage. I went to my mother and father in the Bronx new projects growing up in the Bronx on the streets of the Bronx. Is You hear everything? And then you get your first word Faggot and Queer. It scared the. Helen thought that somebody was going to come after me. I don't think that anybody knew although the way I you know I don't look much different is kind of like quote Unquote Bucci Looking. But I don't think they made the connection because I was very quiet and I tend not to at that time. Speak a lot believe it or not and then I went to a period grabbing. Talk A lot. They will went to therapy Tried to commit suicide at Seventeen. I was in a in a situation. That was pretty violent Very Abusive Yeah. And so that was a factor not being able to. I missed the kids from the home. You know they were eight years you know and I didn't like being very was so. The homosexuality was a factor. Family situation was a factor and I just thought it would be easier to be dead into live. My mother was like banging on the door. I stopped and she took me to the hospital and I never went back home since that was the last time. I was now when you were seventeen years old. Yeah I spend my eighteenth birthday state hospital so you so you saw psychiatrists there though. Once he served time. They're really I swear to God. That's how it was to me. I was away from a year. I guess when I came out I started seeing a therapist and I didn't WanNa be gay and I didn't want everybody to hate me. I wanted it to go away and some therapists said well. If you get married it it'll go away and I I well I wanted to believe it so I didn't at eighteen. I went and got married to a really nice guy. Did it go away no. I was married one year and then I met. I met this woman my first adult over while I was married. I knew it was never going away and I fell in love with a woman and I kept it a secret. I mean I was so I had never experienced any kind of feeling like that ever. You know not with no guy but it took me thirteen years to leave. The marriage and had two children did you. You must have felt trapped terribly trapped when I decided to come out. It was either killing myself or coming out but I had the kids and the kids kept me from doing such a thing and So I came out and I was a much better parent for it. I have a wonderful relationship with my kids today. Did you go to any of the early? Gay Pride Marches. I didn't go to the first one I was. Not there. Were sixty seventy No didn't go in seventy one seventy two. Tell me a little bit about that. First March I was kind of Excited almost arrogant gay rights. Now you know and excuse me for you if you like. It was like one of the things that the movement did for me. It gave me a vehicle to express my anger what we are about everything that. I had been denied my life that I had no adolescence. My childhood was Was Rob I always say that when I come back in the next life I wanNA come out to and I want to be able to enjoy being who I am. Let me just tell you how I got involved in first place because I think that might help a little like former lover took me down to the firehouse. And this was nineteen seventy one. I remember walking in and it was. It was a women's dance and I was like really overwhelmed. I'll never forget that moment and it was exciting and to see so many gay people on the street because people coming out in street never never saw anything like that when I was growing up. I didn't think any gay people at all and I just thought I was this this odd entity you know and it was like you know a wow. That's all I could say. Oh well it's just like you showed home. I was for me. It was like coming home. This is it this is this is this is who I
Revisiting the Archive: Ellen DeGeneres
"So here's the scene. It was four. Pm on Saturday February seventeenth. Two thousand one. I was in the hills above sunset boulevard in Los Angeles standing in the doorway of Ellen's modernist house looking at the video intercom. I was a little nervous. So I took a couple of depressed before I pushed the Buzzer after a while Ellen answered with a Hello. That had a question. Mark embedded in it turns out. She'd forgotten about the interview and I had to explain who I was. And why was there a minute later? Ellen greeted me the door. She really wasn't expecting me. She was dressed in a fleece top over. A t-shirt check Pajama bottoms and thick socks. Her hair was a mess. Not a fashionable bedhead mess a real mess. Ellen was very polite and apologetic as she led me into the living room along the way she introduced me to a very friendly cat a silver black and gray kitty with white paws and a white belly to match. Ellen's living-rooms loft like with lots of glass overlooking a garden. We took our places on a long tope. Mohair SOFA IONS in my backpack. As soon as I got my tape recorder out. Ellen's cat dove in to see what else was inside. I place my tape. Recorder between US ATTACHED THE LAPEL MIC to Ellen's top and oppressed record. Oh he'll join you probably but he's not real affectionate in that way Show up in hill. Walkaway wasn't allowed to do to sit right. The other one's more like that Saturday February seventeenth two thousand and one location. Is The home of Ellen. Generous in Los Angeles California Interviewers Eric. Marcus tape one side. One Citizens Building Ellen. Degeneres E. L. L. E. N. D. E. G. E. N. E. R. E. S. So all right. When did I learn about gay people? I really didn't get involved at all in any kind of politics or any awareness of gay struggles game movement. Anything at all until I came out. Just live my life and and All the way up in till you know I decided to make it public but every everybody knew That I was gay and it wasn't a problem for anybody so I just you know I live my life and I did my work and I think that's what a lot of people Choose to do and just Feel like there's no need to do anything else. It's fine like what's the what's the problem. Why do we need to do anything until you find out about the teenagers and the struggles that that most kids go through in high schools and and the statistics and the gate bashing whether it's verbal abuse physical abuse until you're really Confronted with that you. You don't think that there's a problem to growing up. There was no. We were never called names endeavor. Hassled about now not at all. Not at all. Inter family wasn't too shoe I I didn't know I was gay. I had thoughts of like liking girls. It was very clear to me that I liked girls. But it didn't think it was anything that I could actually pursue and that that was an option for you. I just thought you had a boyfriend. I got married and had a kid but I didn't ever fake it like I didn't pretend to have a boyfriend or anything like that I knew I had to fake it when I was doing standup On stage in your whole goal is to get the audience to really like you and it's hard enough to get them to like you when you're a girl on stage. I knew that that was going to be an uphill battle. If they thought I was gay it was going to be impossible. I had that all the way you know publicly until I came out because I knew that that would hurt my career. What was it that made you think what did you see? It's what I didn't see. I mean I didn't see anyone else that was openly gay and there was obviously a reason for that You you hear about the people that are in the business that are and you see how they handle their Public Persona and So you kind of follow that and when I decided that it was more important to be me and more important to live my life truthfully and to follow what. My Soul's path is that's when a lot of crying started and I realized how much fear and how much pain was a surrounding my sexuality. I didn't have a choice. Became is so big of a thing to me that it didn't matter if I was going to lose all of my money my career. It didn't matter it was what I had to do. And that became more important for the first time then. My career or quick was the process of going from most important to feeling. Like by. Don't say who I am. I can't well who knows how long it had been bubbling but when the the light bulb all of a sudden went off. I think it probably was a matter of a couple of months and I made that decision. I told my riders that that I was Gonna come out and then I wanted the character to come out at the same time so that kind of happened almost and then it took about a year for Disney to say okay. We're going to allow this when they were saying. You know I don't know and and I kept saying to them over and over again you know. You're a huge company. That can just cancel my show and move on and have another show you know. I'm the one that that stands to lose everything and if I'm willing to do this then at least you can be willing to do this. I just didn't care at the time you know if if I would have been fully aware of all the consequences and oh my God the you know the public is going to hate me and the the press is going to attack me and it's going to you know I'm really gonNA lose a lot of people Maybe I wouldn't have done it. You know but I don't think I had a choice and I was naive enough to think. Yeah but okay. They've already seen the show for four years and they know who I am. They like me. I make them happy. I see the response I get. I have people who you know. Love me who are grandmothers and young kids and all colors all ages and they're going to see gay people are not what they you know. Everybody has a certain thing. They cling onto and decide. That's what everybody is and so maybe I can help. Open their
Frank Kameny: Father of the Gay Rights Movement
"Thought take us back to the past and re introduce you to some of the people who spirit and determination and grit with me up every day especially now one of those people is Frank. Cammie a Harvard. Phd Astronomer. Who was fired from his government job in one thousand nine hundred fifty seven because he was a homosexual. Frank wound up becoming one of the most militant and important thinkers leaders of the LGBTQ civil rights movement long before it was called the LGBTQ civil rights movement interview with Frank Caveney June third nineteen eighty nine at the home of Frank Camera in Washington. Dc interviewer is Eric. Marcus I arrived in. Candy's House on a mild early. June day he lives in a modest two story brick colonial and leafy prosperous neighborhood just outside the center of the city a house was bit scruffy around the edges and the law needed attention to frank re me at the door wearing a white button-down shirt and grey slacks. He looked like a retired scientists out of central casting. And he also has a pit scruffy around the edges. We went directly to Frank's office on my goodness his office. There were stacks of files and unidentifiable. Dust covered piles everywhere. Frank took a seat behind his desk motion to sit and was often running. Even before I had the chance to clear my lapel mic to his shirt from the way he spoke you think he was addressing a lecture hall filled with hundreds instead of an audience of just one. You will learn when you talk to me that I cast my sentences by putting all the modifying clauses and word no at the beginning and you have to listen and go along and ultimately you'll find what it is that I am modify so as much as them so I was called in and said that we have information which leads us to believe that you are a homosexual. Do you have any comment? I said watch the information they said. We can't tell you I said well then I can't give you an answer. You don't deserve it and it and in any case this is none of your business. Which GOT THEM UPSET? Because bureaucrats never liked to be told something is none of their business that basically with the interview ultimately It resulted in my termination late. That year was shot. Yes of course and they come into your no there you the way. The government does anything they usually will let her. And they say we're dismissing it because you're homosexuality. Such firings were not uncommon in those in that period. Depressed naturally do if I had no source of income and the next the next two or three years were extremely difficult. In fact by the time I got into nineteen fifty nine. I was living for about eight months on twenty cents worth of food today which even by nineteen fifty nine prices. was not terribly much. It was a it was a great day when I could afford five cents more and put up a part of butter on my mashed potato. Meanwhile by that time I had decided that Basically what this amounted to a declaration of war against me by government a I don't grant my government the right to declare war against me and B. I tend not to lose my wars. I went through such A. Po Procedures as they were was take you through the lower level of the bureaucracy and then On the philosophy that ultimately the head of the executive branch of the government is the president. You go to the top and I have always gone to the top on these things so I worked my way right on up without success ultimately to letters to the President. I my feeling is that you always pursue things to their final conclusion. I was put in touch with a local attorney. Who had been a congressman and who was willing than having exhausted everything. My having exhausted everything to take my case on a contingent fee basis. I had no money in ninety sixty the. Us Court of Appeals turned it down and he indicated that he felt it was hopeless and therefore he didn't want to pursue it further. I said I did so. He gave me a copy of the Supreme Court. Rules told me about filing pro se documents pro for yourself and in theory any citizen can any time do anything that a lawyer will do can do it for himself if he chooses. Not Always wise but you have the prerogative under our system. Always doing it for yourself. You're you're not required to have a lawyer. I had the role book a familiar with Supreme Court procedures. It's a double round. You have to Knox Gore your first or to your first effort is a knock at the door to say. Will you let me? Won't you let me in? And if they say no that ends it if they say yes then you prepare all your bruce and really go out later. Yes and the first knock is quote a petition for rid of surgery and so he gave me some other partition. And whenever I had questions my philosophy then as now is I pay for government with my taxes therefore they serve me so if I had questions I called up. The supreme quarter walked over there and said here's my question. Give me an answer which they did very nicely. Not The not the justice obviously and I also drafted and filed my own petition. The government put then put its disqualification of gays under the rubric of Immoral Conduct. The word simply does not belong in any issue in this country morality as a matter of personal opinion and individual belief on which any American citizen they hold any view he wishes and upon which the government has no proper power or authority to have any of you at all. But more than that you then. Having stated a general principle you have to apply adverse specifically and pointedly to the case at hand and not. Was that in. My view. Homosexuality is not only not immoral. But is affirmatively moral and that was the theme that underlay that and that was a direct address to the government's policy and it had to be said nobody else had ever started that I know of and and any kind of a formal court president or or other other formal. Pleading and in March not unpredictably came the letter as I recall. It was on blue paper. I still have upstairs for signed by a Chief Justice Warren indicating that I had been sir. Cherie had been denied that ended the formal case. The battle went on for Another fourteen years with the government essentially did is they turned in intellectual bookish into a radical. Thank you for using that word. I have had cases over the years that I've handled of Meek mild on assertive unaggressive people who just WanNa go about doing their work and suddenly they are hit hard. They are trump pulled upon with the hobnail boots and suddenly it does exactly that it radicalize is them and off. They go marching militantly and case after case after case so anyway my sixty one you had become radicalized very much so very much so so anyway so we founded the organization and now the movement of those days and I say this next knocked critically and not necessarily derogatorily because it was a very very very different era we were. We were centers. We were perverts. You have your long litany of pejoratives. There was absolute. We knocked thing. What so ever which anybody hurt at anytime anywhere at all which was other than negative nothing and so the movement. Predictably in retrospect responded accordingly was the nature
Nancy Walker shares her experience with the Gay Rights Movement
"I'm Eric Marcus and this is making a history. Nancy Walker had a type she liked the brainy ones in nineteen sixty two. When Nancy was in her late twenties she met Penny Penny was smart? It is a whip wise beyond her eighteen years and she read James Joyce Nancy was impressed. The two fell in love and became life partners by the time. Nancy and Penny got involved in the gay rights movement in the Early Nineteen Seventy S. They were living in Toronto Canada where he was attending graduate school. That's where they joined the first gay organization in the Mid Seventy S. They moved back to the US to Boston. Massachusetts and Nancy soon volunteer to work at a weekly newspaper called Gay Community News. As you know from our previous episodes the Post stonewall years saw an explosion of new gay rights organizations and along with the new organizations organizations came scores of new publications the Gay Community News or CNN was among the more prominent and influential Gay Liberation Paper with the national readership readership. Nancy was in her forties when she joined she was an outspoken New Yorker and a moderate pragmatist. It's no surprise that Nancy and the younger more radical staff didn't always see eye to eye. So here's the scene. He's the winter of Nineteen eighty-nine and I've just is travel to the Jamaica Plain neighborhood of Boston where Nancy and Penny share a classic Victorian House complete with a turret and peeling paint. They've been a couple for a long time and it shows all Nancy night. Talk Pennies on hand to offer tea chime in and help Nancy when her memory fails her. Nancy is sitting in a comfortable upholstered chair. She's dressing dark slacks and a light colored blouse which is where I clicked my microphone. I press record interview with Nancy Walker Sunday December tenth. Nineteen eighty-nine at the home of Nancy Walker in Jamaica Plains and Massachusetts interviewers. Eric Marcus tape one side one. I had gotten fed up with pretending to be straight. We'd been together nine years and we had no gay gay friends. So that's when we first went to New York and then we went back to Canada. We would just on vacation in New York went back. That must've Vince. Seventy one or seventy two. I'm not sure took us. Even though we thought we were big shots took us a long time. They get the guts to go. Remember kept finding excuses uses not to go. It's always something wrong. Finally we went and we looked around the room and so people like our grandmothers. I said what the Hell is this what we were afraid of. And that was the beginning and then we went to Canada and so I notice a little newspaper that talked about home files what they call the home of Fire Organization should. Hey let's call and see what it's about and we did. That was seventy two. We first got involved. Well he belonged to the community home. Five Association Toronto better known as Chat and what was the group's reason for being. Oh I think it was An umbrella group for everything for for counseling for social purposes. They even I suppose. Did some legal work the law had changed. The law was universally changed to a consenting adult law in Canada so they had legal advantages that we didn't have that they didn't have the socialist. Matt it's it was it. It was still terribly condemned. People were very conservative there. I remember in Canada trying so hard to get any gay gay publications to find out what was going on in the world and there was one little sleazy bookstore that carried gay papers. They had things like that but be willing to go into what was labeled and known to the public as a filthy bookstore and when we moved here there was a little note. You you know little convenience store across the street from the apartment we lived in and I walked in there and LO and behold his gay newspaper the Gay Community News. It was a quarter order so I bought this thing and I said hey look. It's out in the open. It's okay we don't have to do sleazy things to be gay and didn't know at at the time I was GONNA wind up making the newspaper and not having to pay for it. I think the reason I worked there was. I didn't want water for the news did you. Nineteen seventy six in May nineteen seventy six. What was unlikely that? What was the operation like physical kinds of people? It was unbelievable up wrong sleep flight of stairs into a big open space. That was a mess they had to. It worked very hard to get. What little materials they could? They had no money never had any money. And there were some scruffy looking people very radical people any kind of dress you can imagine. They wore a lot of the people. I knew there are now gone because of AIDS was suicide I mean the voice had long hair every kind of hair. Every kind of everything was a real mixed bag was not a luxurious place. But it was home it meant a great deal to all of us. Every view was gone. Maybe what I'm trying to say because that's how I really I felt. was that somebody else in the rest of the world not fully honest that you could be yourself and we. We didn't get along with each other at all. Even the people who had the same political persuasions didn't get along but still we knew we were among our own you know. It's like a Jewish family. You may not get along but you know this is your place in the rest of it out there is the diaspora. It's not your place. So That's how oh I felt. I don't know how other people felt about. I just know they loved it terribly. Paper had to go on no matter what and it went through hell. It went through fire. They burn the place astound once and we just moved over to a place in Cambridge. That let us use their space and we never missed a week. That paper has been continuously we published since it started in two weeks during the year. They have vacations. It's quite a remarkable achievement. It was either the end of the seventies of the beginning of the eighties and it was devastating blow. Yes it was awesome right. I guess they figured they couldn't get us any other way they were going to do. They couldn't get us that way either. What was what was the purpose of purpose? Yeah I think I think the purpose was to get out of the gate National Gay newspaper. It was the only gate national weekly. It's gone on to something. I consider me three. We need contact with each other. You know there was still gay. People who didn't know there was anybody else in the world. It's hard coming from a place like New York. Imagine that but there there are people in Kentucky and Louisiana and places like that. That didn't know there were any of the gay people. I didn't know there were gay. Men I had no idea I was so delighted the first time I met an openly gay male. I can't tell you it's a brother somebody I can love. You know there were no. I don't think about I mean I didn't I grew up in my own. Little head issue. Weiji Museum in DC N. existence. It started before I got this only three years old with a mission that she was there. A awed yes. Oh if anything was holy was G. C. N. it was a tremendous sense of mission and we loved it and protected What it meant to me was finally all my life? I said I've got this great ideas and I would like somebody to know about them so finally I got a place where I could write and other people could read it. Let's go back to the beginning of interview with you beginning questions. What were you born? Nineteen thirty five. I was born on Saint Patrick's Day and I think he's just terrific because I wound up in a city where just in the city of Boston it a holiday day on where we one flower Fifth Avenue Hospital in New York. My mother was born there in thirty. One Yeah you see. I could've been your mother. That's where would you been in one thousand nine hundred five hundred. BJ have any recollection of that on the day itself. I know I wasn't Merrick. That's lived and I was terrified throughout the war because I had a warped perception. Maybe not so walked what was going on with Jews but they were being put an ovens and all I could think about was being put into an oven so I was quite nervous wreck until the war was. She thought they might come to me. I'm sure if we lost the war I was going to get cooked. So that's part of the reason. I love this this country so much that whenever my my my ex colleagues would not the country I think eight roster I am a Jew. There's no way I'm going anywhere and when I met Jewish people in Canada they said you know you are so aggressively Jewish. There's there's nowhere else in the world. But in America Fed Jews are open about being Jewish and proud of it. She said he keeps you mouth shots. I want an awful way to lose his goddamn closets all over the world. I've been closeted about being Jewish. I got enough trouble so I was always all my life of conscious of being Jewish and being thankful that I was here and and being a lesbian also. I'm still thankful I'm here with all due respect to my I walked progressive friends. This country isn't the enemy. UH system works. It may be the newest country in the civilized world. But it's the greatest one in my opinion so you're right place. I can hear how you could be significant odds with your comrades-in-arms because they hadn't lived through the war. Aw they didn't have the really intense feeling that if I hadn't been in this country I probably wouldn't exist at. Aw
A Historical Interview with Ruth Simpson
"So here's the scene it's the dead of winter in nineteen eighty nine I've just taken a two hour bus ride from Manhattan to Woodstock New York a small town on nestled in the catskill mountains ruth picks me up at the bus station and we drive a short distance to the small Cozy House she shares with Ellen Pourville her partner of many years and flora they're very friendly poodle ruth is a small woman although she's quick to note but she's not as finishing once was she's in her early sixties and has short grey here ellen several years younger she's tall and thin made even taller by thick crown of Brown hair as usual I'm starved thankfully ruth is prepared lunch and we talk while we eat ellen mostly hovers in the background occasionally pouring wine for Ruth Ginger Ale for me before I dive into my sandwich I clip microphone to Ruth's butter and press record interview with Ruth Simpson and Ellen phobic bill February Ninth Nineteen eighty-nine Woodstock New York one PM tape one side one interviewer Eric Marcus Alice the time totally closeted then I heard a radio interview with Martha Shelley who used to be active in the game and she gave the name of daughters this and the the address and the time and day of meeting so I just went there one night and the felt had come home to my people just rub it was on a dark street in Manhattan happened on the second floor were you fearful going there that first time let me explain about my being closeted for so long it was I never never had guilt feelings or never thought I'm so peculiar what am I doing in the world but I was very aware of the sociological dangers involved with getting a job and of course I held at the time I went to build a top executive physician on Madison Avenue you have to be concerned going because of your job either put it in a nutshell which is where the logs you've been open You couldn't have gotten your your jobs no I'll I'll tell you what happened about when I did come out of the classic of anyway nope no I wasn't frightened I felt a certain sense of adventure walk in the room and look around and see a hundred women say my God the there are many of us in Manhattan you remember what was discussed at that meeting mouse lay it was a rap session at that time deal was not very political there was talk about a women who thought they were straight but we're having doubts yes there were a lot of stories about what happened when I told my parents it was pretty much all on a personal level awesome I assume a lot of people who attended meetings where people who are risking their their careers Aso's fell out of women were frightened to be there was some of the Mirror Oh yes yes yes there were were straight women screaming a bit about Organization Administration of the Organization and I said that I would be program director after about Mansard meeting she could very heavily involved very fast you became president in sixty nine. UPN President Sixty nine when in sixty nine confronted was it before the riot stonewaller Oh yeah he was yeah what a what is still more present very definitely represented. Hey there's a war on there and keep in mind when you have in those times lesbian organization might have three to five hundred women at a week can dance you had a lot of people that didn't want to hear from politics and some of the women resented when we started to get political where did your political interest come from well I was very peripherally involved in the black movement I would go out and ring doorbells and Gigi to join any ACP all of this sort of thing this was during the same time or earlier earlier my parents fabulous fabulous people Were very active in the very early days of the Labor movement in the country when I was twelve I saw my first police brutality on the picket line saw my father get beat those hand and ran from tear gas so I had all that kind of thing in in my background twice sort of stepped back and for Warriors I should've but then when I went to deal be I wanNA try and try to see it shouldn't be that others have to obey the young people have to go through this sort of pain psychic pain and the deceit and lies and the broken families we reached an age from like eighteen seventy two wonderful over time you were there were dances every every meet yeah where did you see dances in seventy we got the loft down in in the Soho we are so glad because knew how important it was to have a home we ordered lumber for partitions with made a kitchen we made a library I mean so great
"eric marcus" Discussed on Duncan Trussell Family Hour
"This i think is probably early more realistic than it which to me. I have kind of like given the death bed for a lot of people what's the typical deathbed fantasy. I see what's the stereotypical deathbed fantasy. How does it look well. I think i totally agree with you. I think that the the hovering illusion uson that you're that you're sort of coddling is that the truth will eventually arrive and even if it's at the last second yeah it'll at least be the total total truth which there probably is some element of accuracy to that in the sense that you have the total amount of your life has been lived so but it but it's not to say that you can grasp everything fully or anything but but the idea is the seduction that the truth is coming go and so that implies that right now isn't really good enough and right now isn't really the full picture which is kind of one of the you classic lies right. What if everything just stays like this till the moment you die meaning. You're never fully sure of anything and you're kind of pathetic and sort of just this just this. This is all there is and that's a really tough one for me to grapple with when i'm like super honest with myself because i don't feel a hundred percent here ever. I'm just you know. I'm just not totally present most of the time i'm always distracting myself with something and if that's the way i'm gonna be to the very end then i see no light eight of of improvement or truth coming and so i have to be honest with myself about that because if i was ever to take the bait and believe that some great arrival rival point was coming i would be halted idiot right yeah right because just like i guess like get as close to death as like like do the people who are into the escott alagic uil messianic fantasy which is the equivalent of the subjective deathbed vanity within you naturally do accidentally accidentally long for your own extinction because you imagine there to be an epiphany this moment some kind of really horrific like last buzz like a last asked high were a light bulb appears above your and it's like the it's like you end up milking your future. Death and drink is like a vacation agent and yeah but you you do in that with what you just said. It's like that thing of like oh oh no this is just it and then and then this little selfishness thing that i got going on. It's not really going to get better any more than it is and it's not really going to necessarily get worse any more than it is in. I've noticed in my very worst moments. There seems to be relatively a similar sense of what's happening. That doesn't quite change that much and then you know what i mean outside of like oh. I've got a piercing headache. Fuck doc this sucks. I gotta headache. God sucks the pain overwhelms. You may be to the point where it's intoxicating and you're desperately want to get away from but usually it's just a sort of flickering in and out experience of a kind of non existent dream state thing with people within the dream telling you with some great certainty certainty that if you go and do this or that read this book practice this meditation say this mantra there. We'll be a moment where the scales fall of your eyes and a great light rises inside of you and then in that moment thou shall awake from the dream and that's death anyway so it's like you know what i mean like. The whole thing is just like it doesn't really matter if that happens whoever you are right now. The dreaming state has gone so you're dead and if you die dreaming state has gone so i guess that's enlightenment or something it to me. I get all fucking stoic eric marcus aurelius who broke it down saying it's a moment in time..
"eric marcus" Discussed on It's Been a Minute with Sam Sanders
"The protests in nineteen sixty nine when gay patrons of the gay bar, the stonewall in New York City, they chose to fight back against police harassment after the bar was raided yet again, stonewall and this rebellion lasted for days, it captured everyone's attention. And today stonewall is seen as kind of the start of the gates of rights movement, but rant. Ramtane y'all recently dug into the history of gay activism before stonewall, it's a whole episode of your show through line. And basically, what you found is that like it didn't start there. No, no is the short answer. Yeah. So anyways, you both have three words today, all about the secret hidden history of the gay rights movement and ranting? You get to go first. Okay. So my three words are have a ball. Okay, as we are in this duty all. And it has to do with this amazing story. Our guest on our episode. Eric Marcus told us about a nine hundred sixty five January first ball, that happened in San Francisco, sixty five is a few years before stonewall. Yeah. For years before stone and this ball in San Francisco, which was to raise funds, basically, for an organization called the council on religion and the homosexual. The organization is actually organization that was put together by some progressive ministers in San Francisco who are advocating for the LGBTQ community in San Francisco. And so in San Francisco at the time, just dressing as what people considered, quote, unquote, the opposite sex. I was treated like a crime. Police could arrest you and take you in so the council on religion and the homosexual decide to put on this costume ball on January first nineteen sixty five and we heard this tape that Eric Marcus got years ago, interviewing to people to gay attorney's name Vander Smith and herb Donaldson. They did things like negotiate with the police ahead of time to try to stop them from raiding the party. Really? Yes. So they these rates happened a lot. They knew that this was a possible threat. Yes. The plain clothes police. They would come in. I remember there was a fire inspection that trial was that it was a heroin. It was a health inspection. Right. So the police tell. These gay folks, we're not going to raise your costume ball. But, like what happens the night of the night of the police, basically go back on the word all of a sudden, there were whole bunch of police in uniform came? I thought that, you know, when police arrested you, they said, you're under arrest and I. Grabbed me, why don't each side? And I said, I am I under- arrest silly question. Under arrest and they'd already hold you up to real Saturday wagon. And then they put us in jail. They sure is to hell did. So it got ugly, and it was a major event. The San Francisco, Chronicle, even ran the names of people who arrested that night, basically outing, a lot of people. Wow. And so we should clarify you mentioned Eric Marcus. He actually collected these stories that we're hearing right now, yet, he actually collected the tapes for a book. He was writing back in the eighties. And visited them, you know, in the past few years, and to make his podcast making gay history. So we have him to thank for all this tape. So this event is not so well remembered, but it seems like it had some kind of impact, what was the impact of this costume ball in this raid, well, the community didn't just give into this. They responded and eventually led to a court case that then eventually led to some real changes in the laws in San Francisco. So this was the beginning of kind of a movement, at least in San Francisco of seeing kind of real change happen for the LGBTQ. Immunity there. But then for a lot of the people, including her evanger, there was ramifications for them specifically, how some so herb actually went on to become a judge one of the first openly gay judges in the United States. So he had a kind of a good outcome. But for someone like Vander didn't work out so, well, he was fired from his job as an attorney, and he lost a lot in the process that Haresh has affected me baterial it exacerbated my feeling Vince security, and being less worthy than I think people should be able to be. So I mean it seems like just hearing. You talk about this event years before, stonewall, like, what stands out to me is this idea of things that we take for granted now back, then they were sacrificed go into a bar socializing with LGBT, folks. Dressing in clothes that were assigned to your sex, those small things were sacrifice, right? Absolutely. And actually that brings us to my three words walk the line. So is that a Johnny cash song? I did not mean to crib. Don't let these folks, I didn't know that. You don't know the whole, Johnny cash discography because you might get a letter anyways as you were. Okay. So one of the other examples, we came across also from nineteen sixty five is a photo. It's showing a protest happening outside the White House and the men are all dressed in Houston ties. The women are in skirts and heels, and they're holding up signs with things like denial of equality of opportunity is immoral also nineteen sixty five years before stonewall. Yeah. Exactly. 'cause and a huge March, but it was, you know, a couple dozen people or so. But it was a call for equality for gay and lesbian Americans. And one of the people in this photo who really stood out to us was a woman named Ernestine Eksteen. And the reason she sit out is because she's the only non white person in the crowd. So Eric had a lot of trouble tracking her down because that's a suit. Him. Yeah. A lot of gay people at the time you pseudonyms to protect themselves, because, again, there will be percussions, if you were out publicly, but he did come across some archival tape and interview with her from around that time, appropriate consider myself, very average normal and ever since the word, not radical this to me is the way to be. Now, I think compared to other lesbians. My ideas are falling to the left, and she really pushed the movement to encourage them to learn a thing to from the civil rights movement, which he was also part of, and she said, you know what? It's not enough to just pick it. Very almost a conservative activity. I would like to see is. Kind of respect for self developed among all sexual so that they can date in public Frincis openly. But you could possible in the in the present time opinion for homosexuals, who have self confidence in yourself to do his open. I think it takes a lot of. Courage. It's so interesting hearing her say that, you know, in tape from the sixties, there, there's data in studies that show that like upwards of like half of all people are still afraid to be out at work. There's a large portion of gay people who are still a little afraid about where they can hold hands with their partners. So some of the stuff that she's talking about was talking about it still hasn't been fully realized. Yeah. I mean, she was a trailblazer for sure then especially because she was up against a lot Ray from from broader American culture, but also even within the movement, because, again, she was trying to push the movement in sort of a more radical direction, and eventually, she, she group kind of frustrated with the gay rights movement, and sort of she didn't think it was evolving fast enough, and that it wasn't quite as inclusive as it may be could be. And so she redirected her attention to black feminist issues for most of the rest of her life. But she still seen as sort of this pioneer in the gay rights movement. Because as you said, I mean. To this date, a lot of the things that she was talking about in the nineteen sixties, haven't even realized. Yeah, you hearing, you both talk about these kind of secret hidden histories and the gay rights movement. It reminds me of like some of them at dodgy that we place around other things like I was thinking about Steve Jobs, and apple and the iphone and there is his public myth that Steve Jobs did all this on his own that he made the iphone that he was a visionary. But an actuality a lot of people over the course of many years, and a lot of different ideas coming together help to make that, right? And so there's no way that just one stonewall could encompass the entirety or even just the beginning of the gay rights movement and histories complicated in often. We need a neat story. We need a like, oh, neat way to kind of understand what's happened in the past. And it depends on who's telling that story. And from what perspective they're coming, but what's really great about. I think we history is being told today from so many different angles is regaining. Little bit more of a complicated narrative, which is something that Eric provided with all this great Tapie collected is that the narrative is way more complicated than we want to believe. Yeah. Speaking of complicated narratives, even this weekend for pride here in New York. You know, there's this narrative of a pride parade. There's three happening this weekend. There's the main pride parade the big corporate sponsors. There's the anti corporate pride parade with no corporate influence, then there's the less being pride parade. Same thing happened with the the women's marches. Right. There was sort of a splintering. We saw that back, right? No movement is one thing ever likely. Speaking of one thing, I want everyone to check out one thing.
"eric marcus" Discussed on On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts
"He's a journalist something a historian. He's host of the podcast making gay history. I wanted to we've been talking before the break a little bit about the movement and the way in which political. Consciousness seeped out. And you mentioned Frank candy from Kennedy was fired by the federal government from his villian job as an astronomer in the US army in nineteen fifty seven because he was gay, because you can't apparently have gastronomy in the army emerged as one of the most militant important leaders of the early gay rights movement in nineteen eighty nine interview with my guest, Eric Marcus Camby described what needed to change his mind in order for gays and lesbians to achieve progress the movement of those days. Was I very uncertain apologetic defensive kind of structure, not taking strong possession giving airing Emory body and saying, all of us must be hurt even though for most are shortly and viciously condemnatory as long as it dealt with homosexuality. They must be given fair hearing dribble. We were sec we were centers, we will per how did Kennedy's. Conclusions. Get translated in in how gay activism worked. Well, can't what he did is he found it a new new militant version of the Mattachine society in Washington D, C nine hundred sixty one because he decided that if the government was going to declare war on him. He was going to declare war, right back, and he was single minded in his efforts, and he brought gay people into the public with protests in front of the White House, the State Department and elsewhere with people asking for their rights actually actually asking in a way that people hadn't before. I'd like to take a call now from Baltimore Maryland ida's on the line. I talked to us a little bit. What are your thoughts here? Hi, david. I'm calling because, well, first of all, I'm I'm really excited that Chris mentioned Soviet Riviera because that's kind of what I'm calling about. I think I've been listening to all the stonewall coverage in the last few days and it's been really exciting. And I don't at all wanna take away from the legal and social gains for homosexuality and other like non hetero. That's reality is, but I think something's been kind of lacking like the importance of trans people, and that history like Soviet and like Mars Johnson and the street transvestites action revolutionaries and the gay Liberation Front, and just being fifty years later what I'm mostly thinking about is the really really sorted. Stayed of chance rates today violence, I think, maybe lethal violence against trans people has gone up eighty percent and like the last few months. And I think in large part that's because of like. Politics around the world in places where.
50 years of Stonewall
"Fifty years ago this week patrons of the stonewall in a gay bar in New York's Greenwich Village stood up to police who had raided the venue since then the stonewall uprising has become the most storied event in the history of the LGBT, right struggle. But there's a history that has been and continues to be both under documented and overlooked. There isn't even a consensus on exactly what transpired on the evening of the uprising itself, I wanted to find out more about what forces have shaped the documentation of LGBT history to begin I paid a visit to pick Marcus at his home in Manhattan. My name is Eric Marcus. And I am the founder and host of the making gays repot cast. And we bring LGBTQ history to life to the voices of the people who lived it, and we draw much of material material from my archive of one hundred interviews that I recorded thirty years ago for an oral history book of the same name. I knew nothing about the movement before nineteen sixty nine I thought everything began stonewall. I discovered that was wasn't the case that I was really outraged. I thought why didn't I know this history to me? And so in most ways the most interesting part of our history is the history before stonewall, and I was able to find all of these people, mostly elderly, who had been there at the very beginning of the movement in the US, and I got to record their stories, my conception of LGBTQ history, changed dramatically that I spoke with people on there wasn't much written about it at the time I started my work, and so I had ideas about people, especially in the early movement that there was some how accommodation as so that all they wanted to do as simulate and it was the perspective of the people who wrote about it writing through the lens of the nineteen eighty s. What I didn't realize what the times were like and what people were up against early in the movement, and how courageous really radical, they were in their thinking that they that they imagined a world that could be different and slowly found a way I fit into the world. And then to begin changing it, and that to me made them radicals, even though some of a lot of the activists came along later looked at them and thought of them as less than and old fashioned that somehow there, what they did didn't matter very much, given the, the history of the movement goes back so far before stonewall. What do you think explains the editor of stonewall as a kind of watershed within algae, PT, Hugh history, stonewall uprising in stonewall was indeed a watershed of the movement? It was a turning point. But there were between fifty and sixty existing organizations in nineteen sixty nine there was a, a modest national movement. What stonewall did is it? Channeled or I should say the organizing that happened in the aftermath of stonewall based on the infrastructure that existed already channel, this new energy and anger into a much larger national movement. It, it inspired it triggered the gay liberation phase of what had been called the home afoul movement. So you went from fifty to sixty organizations in nineteen sixty nine to a year later, fifteen hundred organizations across the country, and then another year later twenty five hundred organizations thousands of young people at colleges and universities were brought into the movement. It was very young movement, and the people who are involved earlier were for the most part swept away some people continued on through the next days of the movement, and they brought their experience into this new phase of the movement. In fact, the first organizing meetings that were held right after stonewall were hosted by the Mattachine society, an organization founded in nineteen fifty in Los Angeles. And the daughters of leaders in organization for lesbians, founded in nineteen fifty five so it didn't. I thought that the movement sprang whole from the uprising of the stonewall inn, I didn't know, otherwise until I did my research and discovered that. It required. Concentration organizing in hard work to get from the stall uprising to the first pride March here in New York when you're later and then to this movement, that's now grown across the country and all over the world records of LGBT life have been shaped by the same divisions influence other histories, these include splits along sexual racial and generational lines. The lesbian her story archives are a historical repository run by lesbians for lesbians. I met Maxine Wolfe, one of the archives coordinate is in the Brooklyn brownstein. Whether kept most archives that call themselves LGBT are g and t they have practically no ill. Okay or be. So part of it is that we can't rely on other people to preserve our history. If you read most history books about the gay movement. A lot of what is in. There is about men and their movement, not what lesbians would doing at the same time, and even if they're lesbians in the organization, they don't get as much visibility. So this is about making sure that lesbians are at the center of that history. Also the way that we define it is very different than most archives. We define it as being as broad as possible we don't want to create an archive that's about only about famous lesbians, which most archives, they want material from well-known members of the community, and we have that, but we also value, the idea as Joan Nestle said that any lesbian at walks in here can see an image of herself which. Means that we have the papers of lesbian prostitutes, and go, go dancers, and truck drivers and secretaries as well as having papers of people like orgy Lord, or Audrey enrich, or other well-known, lesbians, would you mind showing me around? So on the first floor we put the things that most people who are not necessarily academic, researches would want to see novels autobiographies biographies. We also have literary criticism we have and Thala geez. We have poetry books. We have poetry anthologies, my favorite thing on this floor, though is we have books from other countries. And one of my favorite books is this, which was may? It's, it's called a Dikshit airy and it's handmade by a group of Japanese lesbians who brought it here, and it has phrases in English, and then Japanese, and then Japanese and English, and you can see it's all handmade. So it has things like are you monogamous? Women's take back the night it has a Butch on the streets in between the sheets. This is all an English. And then in Japanese this, reflects the way that I think, so many lesbians feel about wanting to make sure that people remember us. And that's what this archive is about the most touching thing that happens here is to see somebody come in and see something that they were part of some lesbian will walk through the door from some other state and, you know, an older woman who will say, you know, I was part of this poetry, collective in one thousand nine hundred seventy five and I bet you know, we did this book but you probably don't have it. And then I'll say, well, let's look, and then we look and we find it and people cry, you know, women cry when they come in here and see a couple of things not just something that's there's, but a place that respect. Who they are a place that is beautiful, and that is put together and that cares about who they are. And that's very important to me. And I think to everybody who is at the archives today, LGBT history is documented move freely in extensively even ever before. But as the wheel celebrates pride this month, we would do well to remember the people whose lives anti, we're not giving the attention. They deserved for multiple twenty four in New York on Henry Sheridan.
"eric marcus" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Is that? Hopi others. Strain. No, that's not Martin Luther King junior or Ralph Bunche or John Lewis. That's the voice of buyers. Rushton speaking to a reporter from the Washington blade in the mid nineteen eighties. By wrestling was a leading figure in the civil rights movement and advisor to Martin Luther King junior the organizational genius behind the nine hundred sixty three March on Washington. But he was also the target of homophobic attacks that caused him to be sidelined at key moments. Now, we can hear rust and talk about that period in his life in his own words. Eric Marcus is the host and founder of making gay history a podcast, featuring interviews with people who were instrumental in the movement for the rights of LGBTQ people. He's airing westerns interview for the first time on an episode of the podcast this week. And he's going to share some of that tape with us. Now, Eric Marcus is with us now from our studios in New York, Eric thanks so much for joining us such pleasure. Especially to talk about bio drostan will tell us about this remarkable tape. I mean rest and died in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven long before your podcast. How did you find this tape? Well, it was a bit of a search. My producer knew that Byron had talked about his experience of being gay and the impact of that on his role in the movement. And there were two specific speeches that she was looking for one was called from Montgomery to stonewall, which he gave at the university of Pennsylvania nineteen ninety six and then he did an interview with the village voice. And we hope those have been recorded. Well, it turns out that Walter Nicol his surviving partner lives, eight blocks north of where I live my producer lives, and we were introduced to him and he he recorded backups during the last two years of pirates life when he was with him. He did backup recordings of all the interviews at buyer. Did. That's when using. Yeah. So it turned out. He had those two interviews, but they weren't usable. And if you can imagine there was a off of cassette tapes on the corner of twenty third street. Nathan you in New York. To my producer. But each time sour came back and said, we can't use them the tapes from not good enough to us. And he said, oh, I've got more. And that's how we came to be in possession of this extraordinary interview. So people who are immersed in the history of the civil rights movement will have heard of him. But a lot of people have not heard him. And that's probably because his being an out gay man was considered a problem for the movement. And they're even the black leaders who used his sexuality against him. I just wanna play a clipper he talks about that in here. It is. I haven't given. It was so much pressure on Dr king about my gay. Not not that he set up a committee to explore whether it be dangerous. And king did eventually ask Rushton to step down or at least take a low profile. How did he had it buried rested respond to that? That's one of the questions I would love to have asked. But I didn't do this interview. But I what I've come to understand about from listening to him and from reading about him. He didn't hold grudges. And he kept his eye on the prize. And I think in no small part because of his Quaker upbringings Quaker beliefs. He turned aside. He knew the movement was more important than he was. But he always found a way to get back in the remarkable things about one thousand nine hundred sixty three year later, he's organizing the March on Washington and yes in the background, but you see him and all the pictures, and I feel like I wish I had known about him my education about the civil rights movement was pretty thin back in the nineteen sixties and seventies. Because as a gay kid growing up. I would have loved to have known that. There was this extraordinary hero who had done these things against all odds during a period when the gay rights movement itself was was so weak and really at its very beginning. And here he had managed even though he was gay even though the FBI was keeping an eye on him even though he had an arrest record because he was caught in the back seat of a car with two men in one thousand nine hundred fifty three in California. And then jailed for two months, he still. Managed to be a key figure in the black civil rights movement and organize the March on Washington. Well, you know, one of the things that I think people appreciate now is that he was open about his sexuality at a time. When that was in fact, quite dangerous. I mean, he was as you just noted he was arrested several times both were protesting and for charges related to sexuality. And I just want to play a clip of the part of the interview where he talks about why being out was so important to him. And it's related to the fact of his identity as black man, and he talks about and I can't play all of it. Because it's they'll have to listen to your podcast for that. But he talks about his experience as a black man in the forties in the south going to the back of a segregated bus. And a child reached out to touch something shiny on his necktie, which he was attracted to and his mother using the N word said don't touch that N word. Yeah. And then he says he decided not to go to the back of the bus, but that's related to his feeling about his sexuality. Let me just play that part here. And then you can tell us more about inheritance. So I said I only to not only to my own dignity, but I always to that child, but you should be educated to know the blacks. Aback? I she get arrested. Many. Bus. No, I do not accept. Well, it occurred to me. Absolutely. Host such. Because I. I was appalled. The prejudice was. To destroy me. I moved to tears every time. I hear him say that tell me more. Well, if you think about the time in which that forties, I interviewed a lot of LGBTQ people from those years from the forties fifties and sixties who somehow despite the crushing burden of a society that condemn them Stu believed fundamentally that they were there's nothing wrong with them that they were good people. He wound up paying a high price for his openness, but he was determined. And felt that it was his responsibility to be out. And it's something that I felt as a young person that I was my grandmother wants said to me, why do you have to it's okay that you're gay? But why do you have to tell anybody? And I said, well, I'm in a position where I feel that I can set an example, I feel like I have a role in this life while my role was much much smaller scale than by Russians. I can relate to what he's talking about that he he was doing it at a time when the price that the pay for being out was so high most gay people who are involved in movement in those years, which wasn't even called a movement yet in the fifties and sixties you pseudonyms. He didn't he used his name? And he was he was out there and proud do you have any sense of how his family felt about his identity as a gay, man? So you determined to make me cry. Michelle. His grandmother who raised him. He thought his grandmother was his mother. He was illegitimate child is his sister turned out was his mother his grandmother dealt with in such a lovely way. She was concerned about protecting him at one point. She says that told him that he should only go with people who had as much to lose as he did. And then she would inquire in later years. He had any special friend that he might have a special friend. That was the euphemism. Wasn't it? Yeah. I think his grandmother went to the same school as my grandmother. My grandmother used special friend, also, and that was so lovely and also so true of people in those days in ways that I could never have imagined until I started interviewing people and discovered that families were supportive often, not always but often of their loved ones and fearful of the danger they were in because they were gay and lived in a world that was so dangerous for gay people. Finally, what are you see aspired Reston's legacy? His life had such. Meaning he found a way to live in a world that didn't accept him on so many levels and really thrive and teaches all of us that you were thwarted in what we want to accomplish that there are ways to do it. But not to do it with bitterness not to do it with anger, but to find the path forward that will let you accomplish what you need to do. He has I on social Justice on equality for all people. He brought that to his talks about gay people very late in his life. But it was always about equality about respect. In about empathy for people who are different. That's Eric Marcus of the podcast making gay history. His episode on buyer trust and is scheduled to air this coming week on January tenth, Eric, Marcus. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, michelle. I really appreciate.
"eric marcus" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"That? Hopi others. Strain subs. No, that's not Martin Luther King junior or Ralph Bunche or John Lewis. That's the voice of buyer Rushton speaking to a reporter from the Washington blade in the mid nineteen eighties by and was a leading figure in the civil rights movement and advisor to Martin Luther King junior at the organizational genius behind the nine hundred sixty three March on Washington. But he was also the target of homophobic attacks that caused him to be sidelined at key moments. Now, we can hear rust and talk about that period in his life in his own words. Eric Marcus is the host and founder of making gay history a podcast, featuring interviews with people who were instrumental in the movement for the rights of LGBTQ people. He's airing Rushton's interview for the first time on an episode of the podcast this week. And he's going to share some of that tape with us. Now, Eric Marcus is with us now from our studios in New York, Eric thanks so much for joining us such a pleasure, especially to talk about bio drostan. We'll tell us about this remarkable tape. I mean, Russell died in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven long before your podcast. How did you find this tape? Well, it was a bit of a search. My producer knew that buyers had talked about his experience of being gay and the impact of that on his role in the movement. And there were two specific speeches that where she was looking for one was called from Montgomery to stonewall, which he gave it the university of Pennsylvania nineteen ninety six and didn't interview with the village voice, and we hope to have been recorded. But it turns out that Walter Nicol, his surviving partner lives, eight blocks north of where I live where my producer lives, and we were introduced to him, and he he recorded backups during the last ten years of our life when he was with him. He did backup recordings of all the interviews at pirated. That's amazing. Yeah. So it turned out. He had those two interviews, but they weren't usable. And if you can imagine there was a hand off of cassette tapes on the corner of twenty third street in New York. To my producer. But each time. Sorry came back and said we can't use them the tapes from not good enough to us. And he said, oh, I've got more. And that's how we came to be in possession of this extraordinary interview. So people who are immersed in the history of the civil rights movement will have heard of him. But a lot of people have not heard of him. And that's probably because his being an out gay man was considered a problem for the movement. And there are even other black leaders who used his sexuality against him. I just wanna play a clip where he talks about that in here. It is. Boy, it was so much pressure on Dr king about my game. Would not be not that he set up a committee to explore whether it be dangerous. Working and king did eventually ask Rushton to step down or at least to take a low profile. How did he had buried rested respond to that? That's one of the questions I would love to have asked. But I didn't do this interview. But I would come to understand about fired from listening to him and from reading about him. He didn't hold grudges. And he kept his eye on the prize. And I think in no small part because of his Quaker upbringings Quaker beliefs. He turned aside. He knew the movement was more important than he was. But he always found a way to get back in the remarkable things about nineteen nine hundred sixty three year later, he's organizing the March on Washington and yes in the background, but you see him in all the pictures. And I feel like I wish I had known about him. My education about the civil rights movement was pretty thin back in the nineteen sixties and seventies. Because as a gay kid growing up. I would have loved to have known that. There was extraordinary hero who had done these things against all odds during a period when the gay rights movement itself was was so weak and really at its very beginning. And here he had managed even though he was gay even though the FBI was keeping an eye on him. And even though he had an arrest record because he was caught in the back seat of a car with two men in one thousand nine hundred fifty three in California. And then jailed for two months, he still managed to be a key figure in the black civil rights movement and organize the March on Washington. Well, you know, one of the things that I think people appreciate now is that he was open about his sexuality at a time. When that was in fact, quite dangerous. I mean, he was as you just noted he was arrested several times both for protesting and for charges related to sexuality. And I just want to play a clip of the part of the interview where he talks about why being out was so important to him. And it's. Related to the fact of his identity as black man, and he talks about an can't play all of it. Because it's they'll have to listen to your podcast for that. But he talks about his experience a black man in the forties in the south going to the back of a segregated bus and child reached out to kind of touch something shiny on his necktie, which he was attracted to and his mother using the N word said don't touch that N word, take it. Yeah. And then he says he decided not to go to the back of the bus, but that's related to his feeling about his sexual. I said let me just play that part here. And then you can tell us more about inherit is. So I said I only that shot. Not only to my own dignity. But I always did that child that you should be educated to know the lack about. Is she get arrested many white people in the bus. No except. Now it occurred to me. Yeah. Absolutely. Because if I do. I was a part. The prejudice was apply to destroy me. I moved to tears every time. I hear him say that tell me more. Well, if you think about the timing which forties, I interviewed a lot of LGBTQ people from those years from the forties fifties and sixties who somehow despite the crushing burden of society that condemn them still believed fundamentally they were there's nothing wrong with them that they were good people. He wound up paying a high price for his openness, but he was determined and felt a responsibility to be out. And it's something that I felt as a young person that I was my grandmother once said to me, why do you have to it's okay that you're gay? But why do you have to tell anybody? And I said, well, I'm in a position where I feel that I can set an example, I feel like I have a role in this life, and while my role was much much smaller scale than than by Russians. I can relate to what he's talking about that he he was doing it at a time when the price that would pay for being out. Was so high most gay people who are involved in the movement in those years, which wasn't even called a movement yet in the fifties. And sixties you pseudonyms he didn't he used his name? And he was he was out there and proud do you have any sense of how his family felt about his identity as a gay, man? So you're determined to make me cry. So his grandmother who raised him. He thought his grandmother was his mother. He was an illegitimate child is his sister. It turned out was his mother his grandmother dealt with such a lovely way. She was concerned about protecting him at one point. She says that told him that he should only go with people who had as much to lose as he did. And then she would inquire in in later years. He had any special friend that he might have made a special friend. That was the euphemism wasn't his grandmother went to the same school as my grandmother. My grandmother used special friend, also, and that was so lovely and also so true of people in those days in ways that I could never have imagined until I started interviewing people and discovered that families were supportive often, not always but often of their loved ones and fearful of the danger they were in because they were gay and world that was so dangerous for gay people. Finally, what are you see aspired Reston's legacy? His life had such. Meaning he found a way to live in a world that didn't accept him on so many levels and really to thrive and teaches all of us that you were thwarted in what we want to accomplish that there are ways to do it. But not to do it with bitterness not to do it with anger. But to find the path forward that will let you accomplish what you need to do. He had his eye on social Justice on equality for all people. He brought that to his talks about gay people very late in his life. But it was always about equality about respect. In about empathy for people who are different. That's Eric Marcus of the podcast making gay history. His episode on buyer trust and is scheduled to air this coming week on January temp, Eric Marcus. Thank.
"eric marcus" Discussed on NPR's Story of the Day
"He thought his grandmother was his mother he was illegitimate child. His his sister turned out was his mother his grandmother dealt with him in such a lovely way. She was concerned about protecting him at one point. She says that told him that he should only go with people who had as much to lose as he did. And then she would inquire in in later years, if he had any special friend that he might have made this a special friend. That was the euphemism. Wasn't it? Yeah. I think his grandmother went to the same school as my grandmother. My grandmother used special friend, also, and that was so lovely and also true of people in those days in ways that I could never have imagined until I started interviewing people and discovered that families were supportive often, not always but often of their loved ones and fearful of the danger they were in because they were gay and lived in a world that was so dangerous for gay people. What are you see aspired Reston's legacy? His life had such. Meaning he found a way to live in a world that didn't accept him on so many levels and really to thrive and teaches all of us that even when we're thwarted in what we want to accomplish that there are ways to do it. But not to do it with bitterness not to do it with anger, but to find the path forward that will let you accomplish what you need to do. He had his eye on social Justice on equality for all people. He brought that to his talks about gay people very late in his life. But it was always about equality about respect. In about empathy for people who are different. That's Eric Marcus of the podcast making gay history. His episode on buyer trust and is scheduled to air this coming week on January temp, Eric Marcus. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Michelle, really appreciated..
"eric marcus" Discussed on Making Gay History
"Kelli, Kelli, Kelli. If you get me if you give me that string over there. I can play with it. I don't think she will. She's. Interview with Billy Talmadge Sunday, August sixth nineteen eighty nine at the home of Billy Talmadge and Marsha Herndon in Richmond, California. That's the San Francisco Bay area. Interviewer is Eric Marcus tape. One side one I was always a tomboy, and I had had crushes, you know, and. And I had tried things with boys, and they just simply were not my Cup of tea. I mean, I was uncomfortable. And I decided if this is you know, what it's going to be. I'm gonna know what what ones supposed to do in this sort of business. So I had heard that there was this big dyke on campus. Where was this? What's he this was in in Kansas and? So I followed her for days. And so finally by Sar coming out of them for Fe just off campus. They're going to car and it went up to her. And I said, I wanna talk to you. I sure I came out and just that strong, and she sort of looked at me, and she said, well, okay. Get in the car. So we got in and she started driving. And she said what is it? And I said, well, I've just found out that I'm a homosexual. And I want to know about this is all about I said, I want to know how to make love to a woman. I never have. And I think a better. No. And she looked at me, and she kind of chuckled, and she said, well, there's only one way to really show you, and I said, no don't show me. Tell me. And so we drove out somewhere and we parked in the park. And I ask every question I can think of and she would answer to the best of her ability anything that I put to her. And I. I think maybe somewhere along in there when I look back on that particular scene. I think I knew then that that there had to be questions like this that everybody was asking and that somewhere somehow there should be people who would answer as honestly as they could. But this was nineteen fifty fifty low. No this was. This was forty seven forty eight. So there wasn't. I wanted to call and it was probably dangerous to be known. I soon. Absolutely. You could be thrown out of the campus. And nothing plan. Let's go back to when you first came in contact with. How did you hear about the obe- with Jay Bill? I know her as shorty dollar shortage. She and I had moved down from Tacoma Seattle area. And you were couple by the. Yeah, we came down into the bay area. In fact, we were in Berkeley and somebody we had met had been invited to this gathering at Dell and fills this buffet dinner or picnic type thing and they ended up not going and short United. But that was my first contact, and because I was both George, and I were so very impressed with Dell unfil- and what they were trying to do. And I it was another thing. Like, a a real interrogation mean they were sitting there in the kitchen, and we were just firing questions like crazy. And but we both became very interested in it. And. Just moved right into what interested you in the the education primarily. And. The fact that there was the possibility of really. Really helping people weren't you concerned at that point about your job. Now. I I look back on it. You know, and I don't honestly know that I would have the gets now I was a public schoolteacher at the time. In the. Yeah. In Brooklyn public schools, and at that point of time there were there was a list of about twenty one things that you could lose your teaching certificate for the first one was to be a card carrying communist. And the second one was to be suspected homosexual. This is suspected on this initiative anything and for you for any professional woman who already teacher. Abar was out of the question was yes. Yes. At that point of time to go to a bar was sticking your neck in news, but they were house parties. This was one of the main reasons that the daughters existed was number one in San Francisco at that point of time was to keep our kids out at the bars because they were being rated rated rated and rated and when we branched out a little bit..
"eric marcus" Discussed on Making Gay History
"I'm Eric, Marcus. And this is making a history. Billy Talmadge was an educator over the course of her life. She was an elementary school teacher accumulated to PHD's in education and one awards for her work with blind and deaf children, but for most of her working life who she was threatened. What she did. Billy. Brought her passion for education to her activism when she joined the first lesbian rights organization in the US, the daughters of the leaders in the mid nineteen fifties Billy's it everything from counseling. Women who had been thrown out of the military to holding Gavin Java's in her own living room that was the nineteen fifties version of a consciousness raising group deogee offered Billy the chance to provide a new generation of women with the answers. She herself it so desperately sought as a young woman coming of age in the nineteen forties. But if anyone had found out about Billy's work with daughters. She could have been fired from her job when I interviewed her in nineteen eighty nine. She asked me to intentionally misspell her name for my book to conceal her identity. She was still worried about losing her job for colleagues found out. She was allies Bian. Here's the scene. Billy Talmadge is an early sixties and Liz with her partner, Marsha Herndon and their three cats to enormous calicoes and one tiny kitten in a small house in. What was a rough neighborhood across the bay from San Francisco Billy is sitting at her dining room table. She's heavy set with short, reddish, blonde hair. She lasts easily and speaks with the excitement of a pioneer recalling the early days of her life in the movement. Billy lights a cigarette before explaining how she came to be a crusader for lesbian rights, but first she had to come to an understanding of her own a density..
"eric marcus" Discussed on KTAR 92.3FM
"A woman in her early forties with red or blond hair give police a called if you have any information european union president donald tusk says he can't do something that president trump did trump called russian president vladimir putin to congratulate him on being reelected tusk says after a nerve agent attack against a former spy in his daughter he's not in the mood to celebrate putin's putin's reappointment nigeria's government says all but nine of the one hundred ten schoolgirls abducted by boko haram about a month ago have been confirmed freed the government says that number will be updated after the remaining ones have been documented and that no ransoms were paid in that release facebook users are upset about improperly stored information of fifty million users was released ceo of locally owned marcus networking eric marcus tells ktar that it stemmed from a third party app who asked users to verify through facebook and locations that you check in any type of post you on your facebook page videos or other pages that you like this third party app that people agree to you gave them access to your information facebook users can go through a security check up on on facebook and find out which third party apps have access to their personal information which of those third party apps are safe or not keep forgetting to put something put your trash out in phoenix well now there's a reminder app for that really designed to help residents who want a friendly reminder to put out their trash recycling and or green organics yard waste bins for pick up for any barrett.
"eric marcus" Discussed on Savage Lovecast
"Who is the guy in the relationship of that is a question that i had to answer again and again and again from my siblings from my parents from my aunts and uncles adnar ziam and i had asked them when i came out to them i had asked for their understanding and they were asking me to help them understand so what was the point or the utility me blowing up at them because there are asking stupid questions they art inappropriate they may be stupid they may be missing corbett the really not inappropriate and their questions that people continually ask i was asked these same questions forty fucking years ago 35 fucking years ago when i came out to my family you being asked these questions today by your parents about your day sibling this is a question that we may always have to answer because most people understand relationships sadly an unnecessarily through the prism of male roles and female roles and so when there's a relationship minutes to women or to men people get confused so long as they're not so long as they're not disguising hostility or hatred as confusion or ignorance answered they're fucking questions that is the quickest way through this since the quickest way to cure their ignorance is you give them the answers that they're asking you for to help them do what you ask them to do which is to understand which includes understanding of difference which means answering sometim some awkward questions to stop scalding your parents are asking inappropriate questions praise your parents for seeking information you can if you wish throws and books that your parents is it a choice answers to three hundred of the most frequently asked questions about gay and lesbian people by eric marcus always my child parents guide to understanding your gay lesbian bisexual transgender or questioning son or daughter by kevin jennings out of the closet an into our hearts by laura siegel and nancy lamp can olsen beyond acceptance parents of lesbians and gays talk about their experiences these books are out there in their google search away that's i was able to rattle off these titles not so hard to find but i think the correct tack to take with your parents.