2 Burst results for "Ephraim Zuroff"
"efraim zuroff" Discussed on WBUR
"Your family represent the reason why hundreds of his forefathers his, You know, his predecessors in his family were eliminated, and he is so mindful, of course, that 95% of all Lithuanian Jews were eliminated in the course of the Nazi Rule in Lithuania. So this is a man who has every reason to regard you with the deepest of suspicion. Yes. I think he was bowled over, though, by the fair that I was coming out against my grandmother and I wasn't and I wasn't defending him. So I think I was one of the first with Wayne Ian's that he met that was willing to look into the Holocaust of with Rayna and really, you know, believe that Lithuanians unfortunately played a large role in it, and it wasn't just the German Nazis and I joined, you know he started a whole lawsuit. Against the genocide center of Lithuania. I'm headed here I think again. I need to just flag up something quite remarkable that you and he In the end, we're fighting against the so called Genocide and Resistance Research Center in Lithuania and also against the Museum of Genocide victims in Vilnius, Lithuania, these institutions which you would think Which would be in the lead, telling the truth about Lithuania's troubled history and connections to the Holocaust were in fact, it seems in your view. Covering everything up. Yeah. I mean, this is to me. This is a problem. They're basing. My grandfather's hero is among the KGB documents now. Normally, they would form with the mouth of anybody looked at a KGB document and used that is there proof but their entire case and space done. 3000 pages of transcripts. The interrogation of my grandfather. They were interrogating him for leading a rebellion against the Soviets. That's all they cared about. They really did that cure about the massacre of Jews, yet it was still early days for the Soviets. So in those 3000 pages, there is no evidence that he killed Jews. But in their own archives, they're all Lithuanian archives in show lay when he was district chief of so late during the Nazi occupation. He wrote about 1000 documents off those 1070 have to do with the Holocaust, So his signature is on, you know, 70 of these documents that have to do with the Holocaust, creating a ghetto. Sending Jews to a ghetto rounding up the Jews. Collecting their property, distributing their property, you know, and even details of like finding barbed wire and nails for ghetto. So, um Sylvia, This is pretty overwhelming. Well, the whole story's overwhelming. I mean, here use it as an American, but of course of Lithuanian heritage. Lift away near this country. That means so much to you. Still, it seems to me doesn't want to hear your story. You fought this Court case to get the plaque honoring your grandfather taken off the Academy of Sciences. You lost the case. The plaque was then vandalized, but it has been replaced by the authorities. So it still sits There. There's still a school in the terranea named after your grandfather. There's a road named after your grandfather he still in the collective Memory regarded as a hero. How do you feel about that? Um, I am not surprised. You know, on one level because I kind of expected this. It took me a long time to look at the truth, but I dug very deeply. Most of them have not dug this deeply. They're they're just, you know, in the denial, and it's all kind of propaganda. They all think I'm a Russian spy. My Chicago accent. So I feel very sad that with Wayne, you cannot just Take responsibility for what happened. This is 80 years ago. We can do it. We can look into our Dark side of our souls and realized we just something really horrible and we should have really admitted, Right. How far do you feel? Lithuanians? Culpability goes because there are campaigners. For example, Efraim Zuroff, who is a key investigator, The Simon Reason Tile center. He says on his partly drawing on what has happened to to the story of Uranus, America and the way it's treated in Lithuania. He says Lithuania has bean a locomotive pulling the whole train of Holocaust distortion across eastern Europe. Would you go that far? It's colorful. Maybe. I don't know Poland, too. I don't know the Poland's history, though, as much as I do Lithuania's with waiting is look the Holocaust with daughter happen if it were not for the Nazis. Probably. What would have happened were, you know Programs here on there, but not not the entire decimation of 95% of the Jewish population. They could not the Nazis. There were only 1000 Nazis in Lithuania during that time. Not a single, You know, Here's the Nazi resistance from Let's Wayne. It's not a single Nazi was shot, not a single Nazi was killed. During the entire Nazi occupation. And yet Over 200,000 Jews were shot and killed. That's the net. That's their Nazi resistance. How much has Sylvia Sylvia? How much does this matter today? The key event. We're talking about the mass murder of 1800 Jews that you believe your grandfather was directly in intimately involved with Happened 80 years ago. Getting to the truth and telling the truth to a Lithuanians and all of the world. Does that matter so much 80 years on, I think 220,000 lives that were murdered, needed needlessly innocent civilians matters deeply. This is a sin. I mean, with Rayna soul is at stake, and it really needs to redeem itself. Do you think it matters? You say Lithuanians soul is at stake. I am very intrigued by what has happened inside your family. You have said that you would never written this book. If your mother or your grandmother was still alive. And you honestly say that your grandmother told you before she died. You should let history lie. There is no need. To do this digging around. You ignored your grandmother. You did not find the story. Your mother wanted you to find On a personal level. Do you find this very difficult? It has been very difficult. There were there were times I was really depressed about all those There were times. I just wanted to not continue with this anymore. There were times I just wanted to throw the whole manuscript away. And give up. But, uh, I also feel like the stories too important. You know, I eventually came back to it. Now I feel like the story is very important and it's not just US America. It zwei Nia, and it's not just Lithuania, its other countries in Eastern Europe as well. Genocide is that is not a like manner. War is one thing is horribles war is it's bad, but genocide is over the top. Genocide is over the top and it really, um That have such me at my countryman. First of all did it and it also upsets me that they just can't admit that they did it. But not just your countryman your grandfather and not just your grandfather. But if I am honest with you, your step story suggests that your own grandmother And your own mother knew And lied. Uncovered up You have to deal with that. I know..
"efraim zuroff" Discussed on Never Again: a Podcast for Holocaust and Genocide Justice
"In Germany, so it took them twenty thirty years before they really started coming to terms of the history. You know in in the case of a country like Lithuania Lithuania was liberated from the Soviets thirty years ago. So if you say that Lithuania is going to flash the same denazification processed. Well, it's 30 years and they are still all the way there. They they have not bought a reformed and and and and don't make the assumption that Germany is all the way there because they not so often Lithuania is is particularly egregious because it's a country where there are murder sites and death puts every few miles down absolutely inescapable when in Lithuania to not to see the mass murder sites. Possible deny the Holocaust in the area but what Lithuania does is say? Well, it's not our fault the Germans the Nazis the Soviets did at home. We were just innocent victims which is entirely untrue because the Nazi process also began in the thirties and not to weigh near where the lithuanians Allied themselves and align themselves to the Nazis and started spewing the same Jew hate the same and Elation list elimination list theology that they taught to their population. That was propaganda back into the public domain. and you don't Jews who? Spoke mostly a different language who looked different from the lithuanians. It was easy to segregate. I think I think that's that by the way is a Thursday is a core element of the truth that I didn't know. I didn't understand and and by the way, I don't think I understood that as truth. Um, probably until within the last year. I didn't understand that there were collaborators who murdered Jews that were not necessarily part of Nazi Germany, right? So so remember in the beginning I said, there were there were Nazis. We we agreed there were Nazis who murdered Jews. I'm sorry six million Jews were murdered off. The assumption is that it's the Nazis who killed the Jews who murdered the choice. Right? Right. And so that that to me is a huge component where even even people I I speak dog. even today don't realize that there was average lithuanians in this case Huger killing their neighbors and I think you know you and I had had a conversation with Efraim zuroff e makes the the point and this is a such a strong point to make that there weren't enough Nazis to kill the number of Jews that that were murdered you had to have wage another um, uh group of people murdering them and that that is something I think most Americans don't know look it's it's a very easy to.