5 Episode results for "English Country Garden"
Top 5 UK garden birds
"Cassini ideas from my show so many things I want to do just not. I'm doing how low marks deadman hair and this is listed with the podcast where I worked with a special guest and together. We build a top five list on a topic that they choose. This week's guest is Lucy buttress Let's address the elephant in the there wasn't an episode last week. You'll know what's going on at the moment if you're listening to this In March twenty twenty. Then God bless you Take care of yourself is a crazy time right now This is one of two episodes that are gone out this week. I'm going to get this up. And then the next one will be shortly after it. And then we're GONNA take a bit of a break. I'm not going to be leaving you though I'll talk about that. A little bit lighter Going to take the foot off the petrol. Felicity envy For a bit while we just wait for things to to just just chill out everyone. Let's just chill out. We'll have a chat about that in a take but let us get straight to this. This is a lovely one especially given the time of year that we're in now Where there's lots of lovely things to see our garden And also lots of time to do it in. So let's get on with my guest. Suzy buttress who is the host of the casual bird? Podcast and I started talking to all about birds but I I started asking her about her ideal. Bird watching my ideal. What Ching would be sitting in a lovely location probably with woodland nearby and I would be sitting out with a nice drink and just watching what birds come to the bird feeder or the bird table. Because I'm a very lazy bird. One of my absolute best birding days was last year in Mexico. We were staying in a small little airbnb which had a mature garden. And I I just spent the day dawn to dusk sitting outside watching what birds came to the garden because they will. Lots of them are very new birds to me so it was just wonderful to see what was already coming and then work out what they were. I get a lot of Bird song around. And I'm very lucky where I live because it's a flab and it's it's in the city but it's in a very quiet area and a lot of of Birdsong and I'm not very good identifying them but I wanted to know what your what's your favorite Birdsong because obviously we're talking about garden birds and things. What's your favorite Birdsong? I think probably blackberry. Then this the Robin I'm the Dunnock and the goldfine honesty. It's like choosing your favorite child. You Call. They've got their own qualities but the black bird to me. I guess is the Quintessential Sat. Summer afternoon southbound. All the singing in the middle of the night sound depending on what's going on But Yeah I think the BLACKBIRD is the most flutie makes me think of English Country Garden so I think yeah all lovely so my My parents have. They live in a very well. They live just just opposite a park. Which is a big old big pook Leaky Hills And it's I don't know what the task vacation is. But it's you know it's a great big swath of of land say park don't mean you know like with with a couple of swings. Yeah and they get a lot of wildlife that and they've named there does a couple of Robbins that come and sit and eat from their bird feed isn't they've given them names. I think he television Priscilla itself. Something that the people do now. I will point out that there's a wide range of bird watchers. There will be very serious. Scientific Bird watchers and there will be very very casual watchers. And it's very hard not too big word here anthropomorphized But you know. It's very hard not give them human characteristics. Bird's not the bird watchers. Well yes very humid for six. No it's very hard. You know you have these animal like when you got. Your dog has got characteristics. Part the family. Your cat has got their own characteristics. But yeah when you when you're having coming to your failures and you're you're observing them watching them seeing how they interact. It's natural to want to specify particular ones and yeah absolutely give them names. We've done that in the past as well. You know. If there's a feather out of place then that will be the identifying feature or whatever but yeah there's no right or wrong. There are some people that might be snooty about it but you know what as long as you get enjoyment out of seeing the birds. That's the important thing too right so to that end. Then we should we should. We should list. I would like to know to begin. Then what is your number one so the way categorized is in my head which is very very slightly different but I think it's okay from from what we discussed but just to sort of fix it in my head of with birds. You can see in an English Country Garden but they needn't be specifically English and it needs to be country no you can't you can't change the rules now no I promise. No when there's only five knowing what is what is your number one pick. I'm now debating head. I went for Robey now. This is also percents number. One favorite bird isn't it though and part me wants not to choose it because they get so much publicity. It's like it's like the serial podcast or something. Everyone knows about it. No one hears about little guys Bought there's a reason why it's so popular While the several reasons and You know let me know when and I'll go through them well by all means go go through them he to the Robin Lands in my in my list but not at number one. This is interesting. That is good so the reason I chose the Robin. I had various variables that I thought that I want. I want to compare all the birds against and these totally arbitrary variables that just came to me as what I would look for in trying to choose the best sped. Perfect the catch. I've got a song plsy Mitch. Behavior impact on the garden. So with the Robin has got a beautiful song And it will sing a lot of the year as well. Obviously singing to defend its territory and to attract a mate It also has some warning. Sounds as well but the song is the thing we hear the most off so it has go for song such small Little Bird and I've had some wonderful sightings of the cold mornings and see the little breath coming out of the singing away and you know the going on into the the plumage which is another key factor they also icon ick with their red breast brown body. Such mark I was just GonNa say the face. That's my white plumage. That's how they're formed. But it all builds into it so on on those winter mornings with the snow around this little red breasted bird singing away with breath coming out and seeming. Like it's singing joy out even though it's probably just saying clear off of my territory. This is mine but yeah there's just something about that so iconic image and just seeing them they make you feel make you feel yes this is. This is my little Robin The other thing is known as the Gardeners Bird. You know they will follow you around the off your digging in the garden turning they will take advantage of that worm you've uncovered and they'll often sit on the wheelbarrow. Were on the handle of your folk and they seem to come quite close to you. I know some people who work in the garden Latin so the Robin gets accustomed to them will come to them for mill worms and and things like that so again. It feels like it's got little personality. It's taken over your garden. You feel blessed that the Robin Garden and so becomes your neighbor and so all those factors together and the impact on the garden thing was the fact that ed it will eat. Beetles and ones and stuff. I mean obviously the worms for the garden. The the Robin is so lovely. You have to let them absolutely. I'M GONNA start with number one is the Goldfinch he's on my list Good yeah is going to go broke face so yellow patches on the wings to kind of I think a conversational chattering recall. They don't see them winter though because they're in Spain parents and I just think I'm really going on. I really know what I'm told. I'm going plumage and and song really as I said because I don't know I I can't necessarily identify the the different brands apart from possibly in Allenwood pigeon our and one of my favorites which will get a little bit later but the yeah this is a I. Just think a lovely looking bird and and has a. Yeah I would of the more interesting complex kind of calls so just to add a couple of things to than not all of them migrate so you will get done in the winter and the spark of Colorado Garden is is absolutely wonderful. They'll often travel mixed flocks as well during the winter so you you see them that you may be seeing something else. So it's worth keeping an eye out there. They that call is so or the song is so twittering and beautiful. I I haven't really heard it until I was on holiday in Turkey one year and There was a flock of them that we always passed on to the beach and that every time we went past they would be singing and so I was able to stop and think Brian I know that song goes with that bird. And now I can pick it out if they're on an aerial if the flying over and it's a beautiful song and I think that they used to be caged birds in the Victorian era because they had such lovely songs. They would be obviously we. We've moved on from from that they also Very If we think about the impact on the garden you know they will they? It's it's a good idea to leave some of the thistles and Dandelions that you perhaps would normally pristine garden. Get rid of in wildlife. Gardner won't leave those. Because they provide seeds for these birds in the in the autumn and of course. They love sunflower seeds as well. Good tonight Goldfinch right to my number two is blue and I debated very much about whether that should be number one but then I debated about all of my five with the should be number one so polluted very familiar a little garden bird. One of our smaller garden beds a game. Plumage wise very striking with yellow breast white face a blue cap and blue on the wings and tail and we don't have that many birds with blue in their plumage in this country. And it's one of my is my favorite color. So I'm naturally drawn to blue tits They are very acrobatic. Little birds will will hang upside down feeders or looking for insects on fences that they they can get in anywhere they all. They do. Nest and nest boxes quite readily in the gardens. So again it's like Thera- neighbor they'll take over and this book so that's that's always good They have They do have a song It's not as a complex a song as Goldfinch is And also they're very quick to send up calls Which other birds will listen to and take note of if there should be a Sparrowhawk call or other Danger Around So impact on the garden is not not a great impact on the garden except that you know that they will be in the garden neaten small spiders and bugs. They may pack fruit fruit tree. You might not be so happy about that in my in my view. Let the birds. But I'm not trying to sell fruit so and and yeah just because of that antiques. Because they are so Acrobatic I think now behaviors endear them to people as well. Yes very yeah. It could be entertained by a bird as well as being charmed by one minutes. That's a little thing I think there were in the family. That really really do light. But it's more from just an anesthetic of because I think they are striking and Beautiful Birds Okay. My next one then. My number two is the house sparrow interesting which is a little pinch right. It's like a bird that's going to work. It's got sort of a corduroy suit on eight in in terms of plumage. It's a scavenger eight total sister from what I understand. Eight Scott more more of a complex trilling than the than the Goldfinch and apparently according to the doctor Internet. We've she's a sad thing we've lost something like seventy percent of these in over the last thirty years which is a shame because I think they are. They are interesting looking birds they are. I can see what you mean about the quarter. I haven't really thought about that. They the quintessential cockney sparrow. Embed But yes very much in decline in the UK now they also bird that has been introduced worldwide by people who colonized other countries and Albert with them to make them feel at home. They could just stayed at home there. You Go And unfortunately they have done very well. In other countries to the extent that they threaten some of the native populations and is always a bit of a shock to go to a foreign city and find house sparrows there for example when I was in la recently house. Sparrows Pants House sparrows in Canada. So yeah even in Mexico. I could hear House Sparrows. I've found them. They were there so they are doing well in other countries and it would be nice if we could transport them back here because they are in decline so if you do have a noisy flock of Sparrows House sparrows in your location. Be Proud of it. Be Pleased of it. Looked to see ways that you can preserve that habitat. Don't just cut down the Bush's because the beds are chatree in them. Take pleasure in listening to to these beds. They are very gregarious. I absolutely adore listening to them chattering as the afternoon wears on a always spanks think that they are swapping gossip from the day. Did you see what Mrs Silence I did over there or over there and it's real it feels really swapping news. I absolutely love listening to them. And yes that will take advantage of. You know they will eat a lot of things and so they will take advantage of in cities rubbish left around. But but yeah. We should absolutely not revile sparrows. Just because at one time they were very common and so people kind of disregarded them that they're not now we should value them. Say Them to write. What is number three number? Three for me is going to be blackbird. We she's wanting that should have been number one possibly. So Yeah Blackbird. Very recognizable But we have The male is the blackbird so the male is very very dark brown on all black with an orange beak or enjoy yellow beak and the female is Brown just to make things awkward and doesn't have a colored beak and even worse the juvenile doesn't look like either of the male or the female. It's a bit more obviously shape wise. It does but it's much more speckled and When you're just learning about that you could confuse it with a song thrush. Roman you know more and you've seen more you'll recognize that you don't they don't look alike is just that they've got spotted breasts juvenile blackbirds and if you see a thrush light bird with a spotted breast. That's Paler. It's not black like a blackbird. You might be tempted to think. It's a song thrush but again inside disown. Crushes of become quite scarce so In the summer especially it will be given blackbird most likely. And you'll be up to tell because the adult blackbird will come along and feed it so there you go. That's how you're now but they have a beautiful beautiful song really mellow Flutie Song that they will sit up on rooftops and and sing out and And go on for quite some time and in places where there's light pollution. They will sing through the night as well. Which for me is a beautiful beautiful sound but I understand that there are other people. It went to be beautiful. Especially if they're trying to sleep and Birdsong disrupts them but for me. I would much rather hear bad song than traffic or music for me. The beds only as K Bait Worms. They also will get to know you in the garden and and fully around They what else they do. All they have some other vocalisations that they make so they have a very very high pitched kind of almost like we's noise they make and they do when they know that there are things sparrowhawks or other predators area prejudice around. And it's this. High pitched is a warning sounded a warning but it. It's it doesn't allow. I don't know if it works for Sparrowhawks but it doesn't allow you to pinpoint where that sound is coming from so it can help like a warning to other birds but protect it. It will sometimes be out in full view on on your loan hopping around almost seeming to listen for worms in the ground or other times it will be in the bushes and shrubs it It's it's quite a variety of places that it will go. They have been seen especially my garden going to feeders. And hanging precariously to grab a sunflower seed at feeder although generally that ground feeders Impact on Garden of the insects compete for song behaviors hopping around being companionable and friendly attractiveness of plumage. That is a bit of a moot point. You know you might find a solid colored. Bird is actually quite attractive than not as colorful and yeah. I think there's a there's a sort of different so for example the the. Rsp has sort of very nice illustrations of of buds. And I think when you see those sort of very Greeting card looking or sort of. I don't know that is very very pleasing to see A blackbird or a A or a magpie But I think in the garden I think seeing them or just around I think seeing things that are more bright or or just more multicolored think. Yeah it's more of a feast for the eyes when you actually see them in real life but yeah they're they're plumage is much glossier than it shows pin. You know as closely as a starling but much more rich toned yeah really Number three then is the challenge. Oh which judging by the The problem is also good so I don't really I mean I see birds by his no way. I'm going to tell you which which so I'm sort of going on on photos and illustrations and this one is basically David Dickinson. The bird it's called a red. It's got red brass than to read red face red mask and a sort of white white head to the rest of the head so it basically looks like yeah like David Dickinson. And it's it's Kinda loud that varied 'cause really from what I hear you've sort of. I don't know like I I would mistake this bird for lots of other birds or I wouldn't necessarily be able to pinpoint data traffic called because they seem to have a number of different vocalisations one of the key. What well there's two that they have in particular that helps one of them is the long descending. Trill the INS in my head. I'm singing I'm not going to say it out loud. But it descends down and then there's kind of like I want to say but I know it's not gonNA come out with my mouth properly. You can try to promise a long descending trill and then it kind of detail yup and so if you get a long trill and then that I think that's right I it my hearing chaffey. I don't know it was coming up my mouth but the other thing they do is do this kind of pink pink noise and that is quite easy to smart except that I found that great tits have a very similar and I was convinced one time. The I was stalking her champion Canada. Great Tip What I will say. Is that with the Chaffenge if you were to look at photographs of caffeine cheese. The drawing is much more brash than they are remember life they do absolutely have these different colors on them but And sometimes like the green rump can be quite surprising because you don't think of them having green rumps but then sometimes you'll see them and just the right angle and it will display it Yeah absolutely if you look at the first Much Mossel muted but but yes Brick Chapel Hill bird was. I don't know if it still is but when I was young a long long time ago it was the most frequently seen bird populace bird in the UK. I don't know what it's countless but I couldn't believe it because where I lived in Essex I had lots and lots of house sparrows and I had never seen a challenge and it wasn't until I went on holiday to you. She one year that I saw my first half inch Because I see them every now and it might just be that. I just didn't know what to look for. Or they were frequenting gardens at that point but absolutely you see them and sometimes one of my favorite times is when you go to a stately home or a tea garden somewhere and the chaff inches of gotten used in coming up and begging for food. Because it means that they'll round your feet or hang around and you'll get really close views of them literally I if you're going to go to a stately steady home or even the answer may differ depending on where you're going walking around a lake or something like that. Is that a sort of general all purpose. Bird feed that you might bring with you All would vary depending on who you're expecting to say so. Depending on what the rules are I will tell you. I always carry sunflower hearts with me on the opportunity that I might get a chance to feed. 'cause it's just one of the things I enjoy doing. I just think of myself as being like Snow White. I want all the birds. Animals come to me and if I can bribe them with it and that's the way very unethical. But that's that's me I do that but yes. Oh Sunflower hearts are the thing I would carry because Bluetooth. It's great tits. They all loved them and they will come to the hand in in places where they're familiar with doing Robbins believe them. I have to meet in Garden. Finches all literally them so chaff inches. Bully them blackberrys. Take them ducks and geese will probably take them if they get half a child. I don't advocate starring them. If I don't advocate throwing down at all because I set of feeding frenzy and that is not great if they're all but flock nearby pigeons If you're a tool nervous about that that isn't a great experience but if you can feed birds sort of fewer to time maybe on the hand or maybe just a couple of down and then retreat and let them see you that that's the way to but never scattering stuff and especially if you were taking seed out with you and scattering it. Charters won't get eaten start germinating and then you've spread Plants that perhaps these places don't have in that gardens so that's why I say. Be careful way berry is you're fading if it's if it's clear it's a place that they allow feeding great. If you're not sure I would be very careful about whether you feed or not because you know at the end of the day you're feeding the birds y'all happy train them to humans and ethically. It's not really the done thing today. But you know we're all emotional animals and we won't make those connections and so of course guarantee but if we can do it in the least damaging way if we can't do it that is really useful advice. Because I I might. I might pick up some sunflower hearts. And just when I'm when I'm around because there's a they'll place. There's a beautiful place that I'd I'd like to go to every noun again till the Arrow valley and a lovely like that you can just walk around and there's all sorts of of of more water dwelling birds that are around there and I think that people are happy for them to be fed. But you don't WanNa be thrown bits of sandwich at them so it's always nice to know I mean one thing you can do love the. Rsp shops will sell dark. Couldn't geese fared so you could just get small bag of that and now. I have done that as well carry. That's around the like pellets. But at least you know they're getting properties and not just GonNa get blow to the Bible. Yeah Yeah it's going to be stuff. That's a little bit more nutritious for them and of course that goes in the water so they can dabble for it and or retail hand. If you're brave enough to Lakers from your hand you know yeah. Yeah I think we have a thing to remember. Well we'll get back to this but like I think I'll fill out the other thing to remember. Is that if you're spending you know even fifteen minutes and sit in there and feeding the birds not for the people throughout the day are going to be doing the same thing and so we might just be thinking. Oh I'm just feeding them a little bit but everybody's doing that. You know everybody just feeding the Melillo band so he really going to be mindful off. Come at your actually. Yeah in in those places where they allow feeding. Those birds will be being a failure. But you know they superfly way. Yeah I'd say it's very very rarely ever hear of birds economy off the ground because I've eaten too. Yeah Yeah Okay. So what is number four year? I'm well it's the Goldfine which we've spoken about family okay. So let's move onto number five number five again so this is where I have another debate. I've actually got seven beds mine. Oh No eight birds on my list. So the last three beds on my list Which I need to decide which one is going to be. Yes so I've got bull finch. Donna Song Thrush a Magpie Magpie controversial. Probably well I'm GonNa tell you that I've got to those molest not which ones interesting the one I'm going to say. Shall I tell you just a quick reason? Why picked those for sure so magpie. I Love The crows on UH crime. Family they. I love watching the antiques I love. I love watching their antics when they grabbed live birds with them. I love watching their antics. When burying food in the garden when they're exploring things I've I had a wonderful time a couple of summers ago I kept finding in the summer. I put my washing out in a line to use the sun's heat to to drive washing and I kept finding my washing on the floor and I kept thinking. I like the you know. The plastic pegs weren't working on something and then one morning I had a bit of a commotion looked out the window to see three magpies. Juvenile's Oh my washing line pulling the pigs off the washing so they had learned it and yeah. They came back a few years. I I did get a little bit video of them. Doing I could not believe that they were doing that. I've watched them watching. Squirrels bury nuts in the garden. And then go and investigate where the school is very out so they watch other things. They're very intelligent in that way. And the other thing that I like about them is when they are sitting on their own. Quite quietly practicing this song and you will hear them chattering. Wager themselves kind of Sop Song. And it just that just I just love it. Sounds like they're just sitting there talking to themselves just trying out all these they've they've learned occasionally having a little raucous cough for Cheshire amongst all. That is one of the things I do like. And they're quite striking birds as well. The big birds that quite aggressive in the garden not many other birds will stand up to them because they you know they can attack and and will do occasionally They have a beautiful long tail. That's so that primarily black and white but they have a long tail that has hints of well not hints it has got Green and Purple. Xinha's in it as well Very striking birds So that was my pie. Song Thrush I mentioned previously a game for their beautiful song Which can they do? Repeat phrases within this song. And that's how you can tell them apart from 'cause there are thrush. They're similar kind of bird. They are Paler on the chest breast area. They have spots Which is why. I mentioned that you might get confused with juvenile blackbirds. But yeah they. They repeat song phrases three to five times. So if you listen to the tune it might be. They might be as sort of deterred to did. It did it. And the it's repeated phrases so you can hear them and you'll know that that's a song thrush and they start singing very early in the morning as well. So we've got one at the moment singing before dawn and You absolutely spot it in and worked out the two other birds. I was mentioning. I've got done and bull finch so dunnock Another bird that you may not notice very much in your garden. Skulking they hang around in trump's Bush's sometimes they'll come out into the open Very sort of nondescript streaky Brown Brown really but and they look like Robbins in the shape of the behavior but apparently they have a very complex social life and will take multiple partners in the breeding season and so we'll mail may have quite a few females with eggs and And I believe vice versa. As well as that. There'll be some females sort of meeting with different males around this time of year. You might see them. Start to display. So if there's another CHA- another dunnock around they will flick their wings around like I call them very flicky birds because their wings. Very flick flick. I think displaying to the other birds to either tractable. Keep them away again. They have a beautiful song and they will very often be out singing. And you'll see the early morning sitting on a branch somewhere. Declaring that bat my fifth bird is going to be the finch okay so of transcend is for a number of reasons not least because it's the artwork for my show about the Im- does come to gardens but isn't seen very often despite the mail being a very bright it's not. It is bright red. It's a very rain blackbird. Now in northern Europe is a much much brighter red than is here. Almost orange in places and Up In quite shocked to see them when I've been on my travels but Yeah very black head. A grey back and beautiful peachy. Red Front they have a very soft coal which Once you know you can pick out and know that you've got off inches around but the quiet shy in quite retiring birds but they will come to feeders. When you see one on your feet it is a real thrill to see one. Their emails have dot caps but sort of pile coffee colored plumage behavior wise. They just kind of turn up and grab a seat and disappear into the trees against you. Don't really get to see much of them They have a lovely song again. Often would overlook some. It's not as strong as as the other beds but it is quite Quite Complex Song. I only heard I've only had a couple of times and I think I would have difficulty picking out unless I saw the bull finch because I just haven't heard it enough times Impact on garden I think is minimal. So that's why I think it's had to go as number five on my list. They they go. Well you've already not only Picked TO MY FUND REMAINING TO BUDS. Used to describe them in detail. Though it's quite it's absolutely fine. A give me a Mike and Runaway. That's great it's that's that's the So my number. So we had robin among us so my number five was the magpie. Because I did you choose. I think they are striking and I. I think I wanted something that was as as you said more than the crow family. Although I didn't necessarily wasn't thinking in those terms but just something that is a bit more a bit more. Gotha bit more a bit darker and You know yeah I think they they look. I don't find their core particularly pleasant but it is it is distinctive some and I hate them quite a bit and y- you hear them doing the really raw coal chances There's a cat or some other threats around an as soon as that's moved off it it will stop same. I should've mentioned black nerds. They have a very sharp Resounding sort of repeated shop alarm call. That will go on and on and on on really grind you down but chances are again. It's because as a cat or some other threat that they can see and as soon as that's removed from from the environment you know you've taken your cat or whatever and that noise will stop. There is a way to stop it without getting annoyed. At the Burgess. Sorry to find now. I'm replaying some of my Encounters and realizing yeah. That's that's pretty much what's happened and I also do remember. I don't particularly see with when I lived with my parents. This is a few cats ago. My Cat who when we when we got him was my and my dad's cat and by the end was very much just my cat. I think my dad slightly disowned him. When I think he killed a magpie and the Mother Magpie was just flying around the garden trying to find out where it's baby was yeah it's not great to have To see that happen I will say I have my thoughts on on these things but why we'll say is I was sitting in garden one time watching and Mcpike came out of nowhere. Baby Sparrow and it was you know alive. It wasn't injured. It wasn't ill and so you know that that so I I accept that because that magpie was taken that Sparrow Way to feed its cheeks. It was that time of year. Chicks were around. They needed to be fed. Saw An opportunity and took it. I have less sympathy with you. Know the first situation yes you. It was a natural reaction from a Predator animal. But it wasn't needed for food and there was there was an option to not introduce that particular Predator. That environment was very preventable death so yes completely completely agree. No I mean these things happening and you know you. You make choices if You know we will make her own choices. I and you know we see things we don't want to say you know if the other thing is you know if you have a bird feed your garden you bring beds to your God and chances are Sparrowhawk. Full we'll come predate. Those bad some people are very vocal about not liking sparrowhawks. Because they've taken there snowbirds but they are also birds and they larussa needing to eat and you have provided a very nice little buffet area. Despair HOOKED GET FOOD. So you know if you bring birds together. You need to understand that. That's going to be an opportunity full predators as well of of all types Why am very not on board with is People taken into their own hands to to Kayla remove magpies just because they don't like them. Yeah and so. That's that's an an area that I'm very not okay with yes indeed. I I have I have a I have two stories of birds entering my My old my old flat. 'cause they sometimes they would leave so a second floor flat and sometimes people would leave the entry the back entry door open and one morning. I woke up to find that was. I think it was a pigeon quite quite big bird and it was just I just had it flapping around my hallway and obviously figured out how to get in but couldn't figure out how to get out again the doors open but it just hadn't and so I took it upon myself to pat down there grab it grab burden. Try and and help it out. And I think in retrospect handled differently. But I sort of a new to grab the bird decisively. 'cause if always ginger about a it was just gonNa fly away and never be able to help out of the out of the building and so you know in my head of course. I had this sort of Mary poppins image of me. Helping this bird spurred would be grateful. Oh you've reached me back into society. Thank you for saving me and of course what actually happened. He's like grab the bird new at just kept screaming did you. Did you manage to get hold of it? I did well so the first time it screamed because obviously I wasn't rolling the bird. It was just like this isn't meant to happen. And so I sort of backed off. And then walk. It's not figuring out what to do it's peck at the window. So I just went in again and just grabbed and just let it scream until Orion downstairs out the door and just let it let it free and it was It was fine. That didn't go so well. The second time. A bird got into my building which he got directly into my flat and could I didn't make in time for my second cat to that was I was. I was really sad about that. I was really bummed out by it because I tried really hard I woke up again heard this bird flapping in my flat saw my cat running around trying to grab a and I tried to shoot her out the way and I just turned my back and within an instant cheat sheets it's neck and I really was upset by that one because I just for a second. I'm really trying to save this Bud's life if well obviously cut notwithstanding and may be trying to get that into a different room if you ever get a bird in that situation again or anyone does Best thing to do is to a tea towel or light towel to throw out because that prevents them from flying because trying to grab trying to fly away from you because obviously they think you're a threat And then gently picking towel up with the bird inside hopefully with closed. So you're not going to risk break in the wing you and you can take it outside But definitely you know use that method rather than just so launching yourself and trying to grab it because you know that is likely to come off West for everyone. Yes no no one. No one makes so my my photo bird was the Song Thrush. So right and why did you choose some trash? I liked again. It was the Sort of the plumage. Absolutely see why you would They would get mistaken for juvenile blackbirds with your description of of the plane age. It's an yeah I I don't know I didn't have very particularly great criteria. I just thought it was. It was a nice looking bird and Leopard-print bird if you like and it has a pleasant call bit repetitive. For me if I'm honest if I'm criticizing but Yeah another another another bird that losing a number of Oh and also the way they the way they kill snails pretty. That's that's pretty metal. As as the kids say yeah. Did you want to describe it? Yeah they eat snails by smash them to base against the Rock. Which is I mean. That's a slightly colorful way of describing it but it's goodness me. Yeah and I've absolutely seen them do it. So good on them for learning tool not so great for the smells. The snow's GonNa Eytan while I was going to say about the song is that they're also good at mimicking They will Saw sounds that they hear and incorporated into their song. So you may hear a car alarm or a telephone while in the old days when we used to have trill phones everything is like in the old days when we used to have all when I was. Yeah so they do. They do is worth listening to the song and seeing if you can hear anything else in the like you say repetitive but not it's not repetitive. In the it's not the same three notes all the time. They do have a complex song. It's just that they repeat phrases within the song. Yes it's not quite chorus pigeon. Yeah not quite a wood pigeon. And it is on that Incredibly insightful note. I let's let's take a quick break and I think susie buttress for for being my guest. We recorded this Back in what much sorry February for the world tipped over on its side If you are going through any anxiety any sort of levels of stress at the moment as a result of what's going on with the nineteen outbreak then know that There are people around who are going through as well but a also eager to To get in touch and have a chat and that's one of the best things that we do here in the UK. We are under lockdown as of yesterday as of last night as as record this particular segment now and so. That's going to be the case for the next three weeks. We're not allowed to leave. Unless we're getting supplies and supplies goodness yeah or weapons or for exercise we're allowed we're allowed one period of exercise a day apparently Yeah so no talk about enforcement or anything like that yet but it has been it has been set and police have the powers to fine people and stuff. So it's all about. It's all a bit much but if that stuff Feels like he's getting on top of you because it's everywhere it's not just the UK By by any stretch it is this is a pandemic and wherever you are if you're feeling the pinch of it at the moment And you just want to be kept company for a bit especially if your alone At this at this time Then that brings me to the reason. Not The reason but One of the things. That's GonNa sort of be. Hey while this envious naught So I'm going to put out the next episode. Which is a lovely wanted to end? Let's call it season one on Very very shortly so you may already have that now And that's a really a nice fun with great guests well So that will go out shortly. And then we're gonNA take a break And just sort of regroup and see what happens with guests and stuff because not everyone's necessarily in the rest of Moods and trying to think about a top five lists and and that kind of stuff but you know in in other ways We possibly never been more able to do that with with everybody being at home. So we'll you know whatever will be will be taken out but At the moment. I'm not contemplating making new episodes of that however I I'm still with you. Should you want me to be with you In the form of a podcast that I'm doing every weekday called companyman. The aim of that is just to sit for half and I said this show is. I hope you don't realize but this one in particular is quite heavily edited. That's not because of another wonderful guest because almost certainly did. It's because I had all sorts of technical snafus and so there's been a lot of editing to to get this in in order and you know all right the show notes and gathered links and all that kind of stuff and and and do all that for each episode Because it's very much about creating something that will That will lust for while whereas companyman. It's me talking to you for half an hour every day every week day just China just being there and having a natter have an avenue gobble So if if you feel like that is a value of use to you In the next few weeks I'M GONNA do it for as long as we are under lockdown That's that's my hope anyway. It's definitely for the next three weeks as a record this I'm going to do my best to be out to roughly the same time every day Every every weekday Monday through Friday If that sounds like that is of use to you all to anyone else you know that might just want to hear some some some chatter for a bit companyman dot. Fm is way will find that. It's yeah it's just it's just it's just a nice little trout and that's it not talking about the the virus or anything that in any great detail Not Talking about news not giving advice. It's just it's just a matter. So that's that COMPANYMAN DOT FM if you want to check that out and of course we It's been it's been lovely one of the great things about this. Podcast is the opportunity. I have to really not knowledgeable people about the things they care about. Especially the people whose for whom it is not their job and suzy's is a great example. She has a lovely podcast called the casual bird which will finally in the show notes and is everywhere. You expect to find fine podcasts. And it is is what you what you would expect. And she's had all sorts of Of lovely guest as well and if you are if you like if you liked birds and you WANNA know more about them or help yourself to identify them better so that you can enjoy them better and enjoy the Birdsong. That's around. You enjoy the wildlife. That's available in our gardens and In stately homes and parks and places like that then a highly recommend listening to the casual Buddah because that is a great place to start so We have got a job to do We've got a list to make and we're going to do that. We're going to make that list. So let's get straight back at to our deliberations on the top five as I've put it English Country Garden Birds. We've got a job to do Because we we've now got a combine all lists and I think you repeat them again then. What top three. What retread top three. So I had the Goldfinch. The House Sparrow and the challenge is my top three and your top three with Robin Blute blackbird. Now I've got a provisional top five list to run by you and see see what you think and see. See where where we can adjust things and this is based on sort of both of having picked certain things and also so from five to one Magpie Both Inch Robin Bluetooth. It and then blackbird. Now I put Blackburn at number one because even though you didn't I feel that you were the most effective and descriptive and you had you had the most sort of flattering things to say about the blackbird and I really felt like deserved. It deserved a place where thoughts well interesting list now. I it's good because it's not. Why debating between blackbird walls. My first ever episode was about the blind mud as well so I clearly felt. The blackbird had a lot of things to commend it. Yeah and I think I'm going to agree that that bird should be number one lovely. So where do you stand on blute rub in both magpie or obviously anything else they just just my thoughts? I think Robin has to come in Christ not yet. I'm happy with that. So what have we got left? So polluted inch Magpie Poodles Goldfinch Song Thrush said might think after the ones we've spoken about I would put Goldfinch Nex. I then put them passively. I would then put blue. Tit and magpie magpie should be in the top five things so it will be controversial. And you'll probably get comments that I said but we have a crew sound too good okay. So from five to one Magpie Blute Goldfinch Robin Blackbird. Susie do you consent to this list? I I can. Yes yes Jimmy swap around blue and Goldfinch. I think it should be a little bit high. Just because of the relationship people have had with having them. Lest in the Gardner will. Yeah that is lovely so we have. We have a finalist. We've done what we came here to do. And I'm very pleased with this magpie. Goldfine Him Bluetooth Inch Robin Singh. Liter any that you want to give us an honorable mention to the perhaps didn't didn't make any of the lists that we've discussed if you don't because they are. They have gorgeous plumage. They are prejudiced. They will eat the other birds in the garden but it reminds us of what nature is you know reading tooth and claw and You know they are stunning. High-speed flyers that sweet three gardening that Aaron Gordon Unless they stop and take something But I think you know we. We don't often think aspire hoax being golden birds but they they are But I think yeah I could go on all day about but that's probably ought to stop that what. Well what are you? Please tell me everything you can about the casual bud so the Catcher Burda podcast is my show. I talk to people about the joy of the birds that they see so I talked to experts and find out specific things about birds or I talked to people that just enjoy seeing buds net garden. I love hearing people's stories. I love to hear about the birds. I also go out on recorded bed walks and bring those songs to people. I've been lucky enough to travel so There are some recordings from dive taken. I made in America I've got some information about when I went to Antarctica and I'll be bringing out another south Atlantic Episode later on this year. But you can find me on all of the social media but you can find all of my details at my website which is casual Burda Dot Com and I've got lovely gallery of photographs of the birds that we've seen in my husband has started taking veg cross. He's actually landscape photographer by passion and Hobby But he started taking bedfordptg roster to help me out wonderful and it is The the bull finch that that is the the mascot for your podcast. Yes so I I have. That is a bull fidget was visiting my garden. I had a photograph and a friend of mine. Randy Brown turned into my art work for my show. So that is the Albuque- beautiful and of course. If people want to on Wednesdays I post a bird identification quiz on my social media channels. I take a photograph to either. I've taken all one of my listeners. Sent me and show a portion of it and I always tried to show the identifying features it might mean you have to look at Porno Bird Guide. If you don't already know the bird but I post it during usually during the mornings Wednesday mornings Hashtag. What Bird Wednesday? And then for those people that get it right. Talk of your shoutout in the evening when I then reveal what the bird is so do look out for that and take part and you don't have to know a lot about that. I always put clues in the photograph to give you an idea. And it's treated after detective thing. I know it might be a waterbird all go into a cup waterbirds and see which ones have these features and actually I've learned tons about the bad since I've been doing this because it's making me look at. The plumage is more carefully so anyway take part now. Hashtag what Bird Wednesday. I feel like I always learn a lot in these episodes. And that's partly why I find them so fun but I really feel like a great step closer to actually being able to look at a bird and I know what is so. Thank you for that and it doesn't matter if you don't know what they are Because you can still enjoy the birds bought. It just adds enjoyment once. You can start differentiating them so next time whereby Finland and let me take you out in a bed. We'll show you the birds around beautiful. No susie thank you very much for joining me on this than the thank you for inviting me.
Gardens, Plants and Climate Change
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How this is the naked scientists the show that keeps you in touch with the latest science technology medicine on Christmas and I'm Eva Higginbotham this week will the traditional English country garden become a victim of climate change will pests, diseases surge, and how will flowers and food crops and the pollinators that make them productive be effected Plus News of how dust and dandruff conspired flu and the viruses the chemical fingerprint that covid nineteen leaves on your body and self driving cars looking set to take to the road. But when. The naked scientists podcast is powered by UK fast, dot. Co Dot UK. Across the world covid nineteen is making a comeback. Boris Johnson's dubbed a second wave and the WHO have suggested that people dropping their God together with the relaxation of public health measures in many countries is translating into a surge in cases. France is seeing nearly four thousand daily cases and across Europe as a whole, the total is closed at twenty, six thousand people testing positive each day. Now, as a result of all of that people are trying to learn as much. As possible about the manner in which Corona, Vars and other respiratory infections spread so far lot of emphasis has been placed onerous spirit tree droplets, blobs of moisture that come out of the Airways when we breathe and talk and they can contain virus particles and people are wearing face coverings and they their hands to try to ward off that risk. But I school, of Medicine at Mount Sinai New York Nicole Bouvier has been testing how flu spreads among Guinea Pigs not the. Humans the Rodent fraud and she's found that respiratory droplets are indeed important but the viruses can also cling to other things which can be even more numerous as well. When humans either talk or cough or sneeze there's all kinds of microscopic particles that come out of your respiratory tract droplets of pure water proteins, bits, and pieces of dead cells most of which is is invisible. So we don't really think about it but but it's there. So presumably, Guinea pigs were doing. The same thing, and we wanted to know what exactly is coming out of them when they are infected with flu and putting flew out into the air how did you do the experiments? We put the Guinea pigs in a special cage that had a fine air filter that prevents know stuff from the environment coming in, and then we have the other side of the cage hooked up to an aerodynamic particle size or an APS and that's that's basically just a machine can. Not only count microscopic particles that can tell you how big they are, and what we're finding is that there were. Thousands of particles per second every time to get a big moved there was this big poof of particles that were being detected six to us that actually the particles coming out of the cage where associated with movement and that's when we started thinking. Well, maybe this isn't just what's coming out of the respiratory tracts, but it's just dust. So these are guinea pigs for Dandruff is that BICYC-? Well. Yeah. You know eight they are dandruff animals but so are we I mean humans slough billions of skin cells off every day but flu viruses don't grow in the skin lake grow in the nose and throat. So why is this this Dander? Another particulate matter does coming off the Guinea pigs relevant. So. What we did is we took a game egg and we infected with influenza virus, and then we put the guinea pigs in a cage and we sampled virus from the cage and from the animal's body we just took a cotton swab and dipped it in saline and swab the animals, ears in their paws and there for and the sides, the cage, and we were able to actually grow. A lot of viable flu virus from these swaps and that indicated to us that the virus was actually being spread all over itself and its environment and it kind of makes sense when you think about what you're doing all day long, which is brimming themselves and and sniffling around it makes sense that virus from their noses could be getting all over the place. Does that mean then that because? There's virus on things other than droplets coming out of the nose and throat that could be infectious to exactly. We also did some measurements where we were trying to measure exactly what was coming out just the Guinea pigs respiratory tract and what we found was that the amount of particles coming out of their respiratory tract was just orders of magnitude smaller than what was coming out of the cage when. It was sort of a wake in moving around, and so it seemed reasonable to think that maybe some of these particles from the environment that if they were contaminated with flu virus might actually be transporting the virus through the air to the they susceptible Guinea pig next door and could you infect other animals if you take those particles can you demonstrate that there is viable virus they're capable of infecting? An uninfected individual. Yes. So what we did is we took some virus and just painted it onto their for. And then we put this animal into the into the cage next to a susceptible animal and we were able to see transmission to the susceptible animal, and that suggests that particles that were conveying the virus. We're actually not coming from the respiratory tract because there was actually no virus replicating in the donor animals respiratory tract at that point do you think this is relevant to humans? Then it's entirely possible. You can sort of imagine a person who's sick in bed with the flu if they're bedsheets or their pillowcase gets contaminated and then. You know the nurse or their partner comes in the next morning and flaps the sheet to straighten it out that possibly viable flu virus could be air sliced into the air and that way, and there was actually really interesting experiment done in the nineteen forties where somebody intentionally contaminate a a blanket with influenza virus, shook it in a closed container and was able to sample alive virus from the air. So we know that this is possible to do is just something we haven't really thought about in many decades. The obvious question is that. The the new corona virus that we're all in thrall to the moment is about the same size as flu is a respiratory infection. So do think what you'll find in for flu could be considered relevant to the coronavirus will. Certainly, it's not out of the question to think it could be relevant I. think there are a couple clues that we've seen in some of the the coup-bid research so far for instance, there was a study done in China where scientists did air sampling in various areas of a few hospitals. What they found is that the highest levels of airborne virus that they could detect was in a room where healthcare workers were taking off their P P and that suggested to the authors that contaminated gowns or on its or gloves. In the process of being taken off, could be shaken or rubbed in such a way that it was releasing coronavirus into the Air I. think what we need to do is a little bit more research on what the mechanisms by which the virus gets into the air. I. Think a lot of us just assumed it's coming out of the respiratory tract directly with confidence easing and breathing talking but there may be other mechanisms at play that we need to sort of consider and systematically study. So coughs news is spread diseases but. Everything else you wearing as well as your dandruff might do to sounds like that's what we can have signed future certainly some to think about isn't it Nicole Bouvier there and the study with those findings detailed in it has just come out in nature communications. As we reported here on the naked scientists a couple of weeks ago covid nineteen is a confusing illness some doctors dubbing it the weirdest disease they've ever treated. What makes it so weird is the broad range of severity. Some people don't even know they've been infected while amongst others we know that it can be lethal. Significant numbers of people are also reporting long-term symptoms, including fatigue sensations of pins and needles, and sometimes even struggling to think clearly. So what is causing all of this scientists think that the disease may be producing long-term changes in a range of different organs, possibly because of damage to those organs during the initial illness. Recently researchers at Cambridge University sent samples from covid nineteen patients here to the Australian National Phenol Center at Murdoch University in Perth they're using they're very sensitive chemical techniques. They've been able to spot changes in a range of substances in the bloodstream of these patients. These signature changes appear to be very specific for coronavirus infection. So they can be used as an accurate test for the disorder possibly they also. Provide insights into why people are developing some of the symptoms that they are and in the future that might enable us to predict WHO's most at risk Phil Sansom heard how it works from German Nicholson. WHO's leading the study there is very marked signature in fact is surprisingly strong. So what we say is a patent was related to limited function to diabetes to potential county of vascular damage and cardiac risk. The thing that makes it unique is it has a multiple system failure signature, which means this stands out like a sore thumb. We've never seen anything quite like it. Is this specifically for people get really severe, Covet. It looks as though is largely independent the degree of respect tree symptoms. which is essentially surprising. But if you think about it, you know there's been reports now all people having brain damage strokes heart failure got effects kidney. Thanks. wiz saying is the combination of pretty much everything that everybody's been talking about for the last couple of months. How easy is that to detect for you? Well we have various different types of advanced chemical equipment when it's all based on spectroscopy. The study of the chemical signatures of molecules molecules can absorb energy and radiates energy in lots of different ways. They also have characteristic mass profiles and it doesn't matter which one us. There's always essential of covid nineteen. In terms of this sort of being like a almost like a test for who's been infected, how does it compare to the other tests in terms of how quick it is how easy it is. When we started the work back in February? I wasn't terribly interested in detection cosign. sump Shen that the PC all methods for testing for the virus. Extremely, good on, it turns out as huge number tests have very large numbers of. Negatives which, of course, his bad thing for a test and we using animals Petrovsky, we have a test that he's one hundred percent sensitive that works in all minutes costing about in if they in pounds or something like that, and that is generally independent age independent news also independent severity. You everyone talks about how strange this viruses and how strange this diseases, and it's strange that the one constant is how like universally disruptive. This is two people's bodies. Yeah, the promptly number reasons for that. The most important one is this is a disease that attacks epithelial cells that line or cover services at along has a double apathy. Liam has the cells that face the AC knows has the blood vessels which are very, very close indeed. But the whole of the body is the blood vessels and there's lots of reports in the literature bounds, locking tiny blood vessels, and also major blood vessel blockage as well, and that means any organ in the body technically can be affected by covet. Jeremy, when can we expect to be able to take your test? Well you can take the test in our laboratory tomorrow but this is informally the conflicts it to a test that could really work I'm be deployed style is not necessarily long might only be eight to twelve weeks in an ideal situation. And I've been talking to lots of people who are still sick after months and months and months does does this discovery that you made give them any insight? Well, that's an interesting question. So on at the moment, we don't know enough about. What we do know is in some people that we looked at, we looked talking several months off they actually had an episode and still mapping with Co operatives who are in the hospital when we monitor people will be able to assess quantitatively whether they are going back to normal. At the moment, we can't accelerate people going back to normal but what we will be able to do is to have a better way of assessing the health of people who have covid in a long-term ORLA. Chairman Nicholson on the Corona vars conundrum, and you can read the excellent report that he's written. Detailing that work in the Journal of Proteome Research is just come out and I must declare a conflict of interest because I'm also one of the authors. Hi, Richard here from space boffins and just to tell you that unbelievably, we've just published are one hundred edition with the naked scientists and it's packed with an extended interview with the head of science. Talking about the Moon Mars and the challenges of the much delayed James. Webb Space Telescope or also joined by the UK space agencies head of human exploration, a scientist mining asteroids albeit in a very small way, and we talked to an artist to designs space mission patches. That's the one hundred edition of Space Boffins in partnership with the naked scientists. Later on, we'll be talking about what climate change means for the future of the English country. Garden. Now. Nearly two thirds of us are infected with herpes simplex virus. So viruses, this week isn't an herpes causes cold sores causes genital disease, and it can also even occasionally caused Brian Infections. The virus is real headache to treat because the infection is lifelong. This is because it hides existing just as a piece of DNA inside nerve cells, it periodically reawakens to produce painful infectious skin blisters, nola drugs that can. Control these flare ups when they happen they can't remove the viral DNA. So the problem keeps on coming back now researchers in the US developed a pair of selective molecular scissors the contract down the rogue viral. DNA inside nerve cells and chop it up destroying the virus. So at least in experimental mice, it doesn't come back. Keith Jerem herpes is really sneaky that it actually established as a form of itself. That essentially goes into cells and then falls asleep and that virus lives in the neurons nerve cells in your body, and they can come once a year once a month once a week and cause lesions ulcers than anything else and all those strikes. We him don't do anything about that sleeping form of the virus. So effectively under the immune Radovan all the time it's dormant inside cells like that the immune system can't see it. So it just gets ignored. That's exactly right. The immune system controls at once it wakes up and starts making more copies of itself and they take care of those new copies but they even the noon system doesn't do anything about that long-term sleeping form of the virus said, what can you do about it? Well we've been using this really cool technology that's been around for over a decade. Now called gene editing despite has made a DNA just like our body is and that sleeping form is actually a little tiny circle of this DNA that lives in the nerve cells and what gene editing allows us to do is basically use I think of molecular scissors that can go into a cell and they can look through all. The DNA. In that cell and look for a very specific little stretch of the letters, and if they find those letters, they make a little cut and so what we do is designed very special scissors that ignore all of our own DNA, all the human DNA but they look really hard for herpes and if they find it, then it to little cuts and so it basically falls apart and makes it go away. And this works does it you can actually demonstrate that serve you chop up the virus then canola comeback yeah, exactly. So the study that we did was in mice mice get this sleeping form of the herpes just like we do and then we can go in and we use a a something. We call a vector, a different virus that carries these scissors to those same neurons and when it does that it starts cutting up the virus and then we can measure after. Our therapy how much of that sleeping form is actually left in the mice treated and what we saw as we eliminated well over ninety percent of that virus, and if we could translate that into human beings is likely to prevent lesions in Alzheimer's disease transmission to other people and all the things that we actually worry about how did you get the virus that was the Trojan horse that carried in the molecular scissors? How did you get that into the nerve cells in these animals? Well. That was a really important part of our study is understanding the best way to get the scissors where they need to be. We used another virus added. Associated Virus. Almost, all have it never causes any disease. We basically changed that to carry these scissors for us just injected into the bloodstream, and once it's in the blood, it actually goes in and actually find those nerve cells and introduces the scissors. It sounds like the woman who swallowed a fly and then swallowed spider to eat the flying, and we all know how that story ends because you're basically giving someone a virus to treat viruses this safe. This particular virus specter that was used called ADN. Associated Virus is probably the leading factor that's being used for many many types of gene therapy now, and there's several approved products out there in the EU and the United States that use adn associated virus or av to deliver different types of gene therapy, and so we're taking something that's quite proven to be safe modifying it slightly for our needs and then using it to try to cure an infection where we've simply not had any hope for cure in the past. You've been looking at herpes simplex virus. This causes cold sores and it also causes genital disease. But this is one member of a big family viruses that'll will work in a similar sort of way things like visa, the Vars, chickenpox and shingles in people unlucky enough to have that. Do you think you could prevent a person from succumbing to shingles by the same technique? The shingles virus actually goes into very similar nerve cells and acts a lot like herpes simplex, and so we can actually think about using the same therapy for that viruses. Well, we're also very actively looking at viruses that are similar but not herpes viruses in particular hepatitis B., and we have some really exciting results there where we can do very similar things. We're likely to see success there and maybe another viruses as well. I wasn't that a very exciting prospect Keith Jerome. He's at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, and he just documented that work in nature communications. Next up to some high tech. This week, we are one step closer to a future of self driving cars. Thanks to a new proposal. The UK government is considering which could see automated 'cause on the roads as early as next year. Now, our Guru Peter Kelly is with us to tell us more so. What is this new proposal? Stack, but is quite an important one. Basically, it's a call from government evidence for the safe use of ultimatum lane keeping systems L. S. basically staying in length. So doing two things, one is not running into the car in front of course, but also not leaving the leg and all they some cows already do that they do that with the driver having that hangs on the whale. In this case, this is actually allowing the driver to being west so he can take over somebody get US wrong but not be as involved as it would be the current systems. Of course, monitor the driver's she still rather has still a seat belt on seat belts on the. I tried to use boxing etc, and it will pass back control to the driver if you can't cope but it's effectively the first time that the government's maybe toilets actually producing legal definition of whether an automated vehicle can go on our roads are not. That's a truly hands free type scenario. So what can and can't self-driving caused deal ready? Before we get cheap sites, these are very strict conditions this. Directive it's being loud throughout Europe from combating next year, and this is only on roads where there's no pedestrians cyclists only when this essential reservation. So basically, only on a motorway or joe carriageway sounds more importantly no more than thirty seven miles an hour or sixty kilometers, which means effectively slow moving traffic. The UK government trying to work out whether it's possible to do it up to seventy miles an hour we should ask to your cat. So how far they called actually sixteen is a self driving car on public. Trials and there are five levels of so-called autonomy from the ones we see at the moment should really levels one and two to three. This is the first time that three if it's allowed, we'll actually deal be on the road, but remember it's only in a single line drive on the metro today. So it's a long way from the self-driving call. I see and I guess one of the concerns is really how much can we trust the average person sort of use it safely and to also be paying attention while having their hands off the wheel? What do we have to be wary of? That's a good question because in fact, it's what he's trying to do is replace the average person. We've something in principle should be safe up not Beta system. If one believes in these things means they're less likely it's can make an error. So obviously, the Drunk or they're not going to be distracted by somebody in the back etc, etc. so the average person isn't really relevant. It's whether one can trust the system to be effective and mean that won't enabled the works that this person has still got to be available the Congo get sick in the backseat. Case something goes wrong with the system can't cope with Pete thanks so much. According to a recent survey, the rise in home deliveries over lockdown as lead to a thirty percent increase in the amount of plastic that with throwing away. Of course, some plastic items are absolutely essential for fighting covid nineteen. But in general, the more plastic we use the more also ends up in the ocean where it breaks up into tiny particles that we call micro-plastics. These can concentrate toxins from the water and then carry them up the food chain and potentially back into us a while we knew this was a problem we thought we understood the scale of it that is until now because a team from the UK's. Ocean graphic center have discovered plastic levels in the Atlantic Ocean are considerably greater than we previously thought as Phil some-some heard from Kalvesier bought Silva we're find at least ten times more plastic contaminants in the ocean repeatedly felt. Ten Times that's the quite long. Isn't it? That's at least ten times. So it should be more alarming the fog, the many of them, and in these sort of quantities, it doesn't sound promising. How big are the micro-plastics looking at and one plastics? Exactly. We're looking at the micro plastic particles which are larger than. Twenty five microns. So if a human hair is about seventy migrants, you can do the math things like Lena, three times less and we'll look at three most common plastic clips for lean polypropylene and polystyrene. So these are also the most imitate. Were you expecting there to be such a huge underestimate? while. In the past few years, scientists were trying to solve the mystery of the missing plastic way. No how much we approximately supplied into the ocean in the past sixty five years but we have been measuring in the sexist ocean so far was just about one percent of that. But what we find in just top the hundred meters over the Atlantic. Ocean unjust with C. pulled emmers of very limited size range. Levine the quantity which are comparable to the amount that we have put in so far. So that is the striking finding of this study. Her did you go about getting measurements from under the surface? With got this wonderful opportunities, it'd joy in. Via search that sales every year from the way down to the Falcons across the middle of Atlantic every with salt, and then we lower our instrumentation down into the ocean collect water samples or particles. What's your instrument? Essentially, it is a pump. Loaded with a very fine shelter. So, what do you end up having is also fossils including Mike Plastics. Is this the first time that anyone had done this gone out right in the middle of the ocean and lowered a filter on a line to get these measurements for Mitra plastic measurements specifically yes we were the first who has done it. The studies measuring up plastic only in the baby toe player of the ocean and those studies were looking at a larger plus tickets. and. We have all these qualifications like you know. You only measured above a certain size the only literally a few different kind looked to this area the ocean. But given that you found this underestimate of ten times is that something that in theory mind? Exists for other sizes, all sizes, all kinds of plastic we just don't know it yet. Oh yes. Absolutely. Yes. Furious liberal looked at fairly big plus parts those. The them and Dawson rations, and then we also saw that those type of plastics aw eaten by seabirds Wales or other organisms. Now, we're talking very small plastic goes and they can be Ethan by a much smaller organisms which then it's not by beer organisms. So if they contain some sort of safe or dangerous compounds in them. They would propagate food chains and ultimately if fish, it's a lot of those parts skills than we fish the effects might be even bitching tests and that's why it is very important to tackle the question of exposure for all plastics everywhere in the ocean because what I'll review surged luke that is just that ornaments. It's a limited size range and it's a small part of the Oakland. And we already find so much catchier, pebble UvA. You can read study in nature communications. If you love to find out more about any of the stories we've covered so far on the program, the transcripts and the papers that support the research we're covering on our website. That's the naked scientists talk home. The naked scientists podcast is produced in association with Spitfire cost-effective Voice Internet and I P Engineering Services Fleet UK businesses find out how Spitfire Compel Your Company at Spitfire Dot Coach UK. Music Program is sponsored by epidemic, sound perfect music for audio and video productions. This week, we're going to be getting a hands of it does he talking gardening plant science and climate change now the artists Claude Monet of. Fame once said, my garden is my most beautiful masterpiece and. And Horticulture are certainly popular just in the UK alone at nearly thirty million people, which is about half the population regularly get that gardening gloves on to some extent or another. But with changing temperature and rainfall patterns that are predicted by climate change how gardens and vegetable patches have to adapt future Ross. Cameron is a landscape horticulture listed Sheffield University, and he works on Climate Change Mitigation his co authored a report for the Royal Horticultural. Society on this very topic Ross. Welcome to the program. What changes are we expecting or anticipating climate change will bring it's about extremes. It's about generally speaking drier summers and wetter winters in an in a nutshell some variation is North West Scotland for example, might also slightly wetter summers but it's about pulling apart those weather conditions. We're going to see drier spells for longer bro Sweater spells for longer. I guess one of the worrying aspects of it is is not the best smooth right. We're going to see a little bit more turbulence in the system. So we're going to see more oscillations. More extremes coming sometimes quite quickly after each other for a very dr period followed by Makoto every period of course, the plants that we are very fond of growing on those plants that feed us very well on not necessarily as fond of Osos changeable conditions as a weather person is. So, what might be the implications for the plants we can grow we expect the some things are just not going to be viable anymore is this the end of the English Country Garden we can deal with the weather put on the court taking the CO officer a thing, but plants can't plants very much in tune to their environment and the seasons. So the the go through periods of acclimation so they can they can adapt to grow forgiven above a chance to to run up to that drove beforehand. So these conditions are quite challenging. We're going to see plants that are traditionally maybe being grown in warmer climates they may adapt they may be useful in the garden. We missy more of those types of plants the same time I think we're also going to see plants who are just kind of generally speaking more resilient, more tolerant stress in general and trying to bring in lots of resilience. Unfortunately, they often means the plants are quite competitive quake successful already. So things we made this something's the slightly weedy. They'll be the ones that the survivors in some ways. In my case loss stinging nettles when you're talking, they're thinking about the fact that. If we do see a lot of rain all at once we get these big deluges. Is there a risk that you could end up with leaching? So the rain comes down on the soil it washes out nutrients Lego into the river, not good news facility rivers, but also not good news for the soil. So gardeners then tempted to put more fertilizer on and that gets leached as well. They could be a vicious cycle there. Yes. So we're going to be careful about how we manage gardens not tweeting too many. Chemicals onto the system we have some some allies in that we have things organic matter to the more we can. Recycle compost, recycle, horse manure always things that gardeners have been traditionally useful for improving the soil. They're actually quite beneficial here because that soil organic matter helps act as a sponge hold water when there's too much but also it helps keep that water when it gets drying provided to the plants. So all gardeners always say feet the salt to feed the plants not adage is still quite true. I think. And you mentioned water and. Keeping Water in the soil but what about keeping water not in the orbit but in things like water bonds is this all going to be about better water stewardship if we anticipate, we're GONNA have a long run of dry days and we want to grow the same plants. We just need to make sure we store up border for the bad times. We've got the good times as it were that try if a rain comes in bigger dollops, we want to capture that and then reuse it really for for garden use. Ruin Butts agree idea but we're also seeing interventions in places street in North America particularly things like rain gardens. So you actually scoped out some of the landscape where water can be held that water runs off very quickly. Your void going into the houses and the Ridge, and you collect certain places, and then that can then be used pump to irradiate farms and gardens later, or itself becomes a feature in the landscape. So it can be quite small scale. Things are actually be almost a community level the trying to capture and hold water. More on that sort of thing in just a second because I just like to play you Ross a little clip we recorded at a special dry garden this being developed at the Cambridge University panic called. It's called the dry garden because there's a hosepipe ban, a permanent hosepipe Bam here there is no water in this garden no irrigation, no watering. That's really the idea it's surrounded on all sides with these squad tall hedges those can provide shade as well. Enclosed reduces impacts of wind safe. You can reduce that win and you can provide the shade than you are providing some sort of. Climate that allows some of the plants that maybe list drought adapted to survive but then you need to think about the plantings and this comes back to selection of those plants that have their patients to dry environment. But the practical activities to ensure that water doesn't get lost in the garden are things mulching. So mulching often. Having, the surface layer of organic material balk cuttings, all mineral like gravel. All of that would use moisture loss from the soil surface. No Lawn permeable paving that allows the water to move through the landscaping doesn't result resulting if the is heavy rainfall now, we predicting more rainfall in winter on the other hand to drought in the summer. So you want to make sure these surfaces permeable in increase your flooding. So basically it's more sympathetic planting and a bit afford thought yes, indeed is The right plan for the right situation and I think that will really slightly in the different areas of the country. So there's an hour where the can get where you might be thinking of certain types of intervention and planting somewhere like East Anglia, the site of the country. Then you're, you're thinking about things like scree gardens using dry adapted species more effectively. And you can get the balance right you can keep these guys going happily in the summer, but keep the roots above any water table it my appear in the winter through slight changes of level and the garden and using things like was mentioned the she'll, and another of most systems is it all bad news? Are there any silver linings to this longer growing season, etc because the temperatures a bit different other things we can look forward to. In the personal point of view is we will enjoy the garden more. We'll be outdoors more often think we will be using the garden as the outdoor room. And we will always of still grow plants in containers. We can to some extent, mollycoddle lemon look after them. So we still have a special plants pets but it may well be that we're actually having more time and using the garden more effectively just because we are having longer summer dry periods Ross. Thank you. That's Ross Cameron. He'll be back later on in the program. Now back to the Cambridge. University Botanic Garden where they're exploring the collision between gardens, plants and climate change now. Katie. Halo went on a walk with Shantelle Helm. We having some a high temperatures supposed as climate change predictions that are being coming reality. And here in Cambridge bring probably the driest part of UK and probably the driest area in Western. We deal with high temperatures and low rainfall quite often, I? Think with these increased temperatures moisture deficit within the soils is becoming more and more of problem to deal with you've got a new trail in the garden or plants and climate change. Yes. Comes out of hope to try and encourage visitors to appreciate plants for the diversity in terms of their decorations to climate change also to encourage others to understand why we are going certain ways with certain plantings and also to really talk about how plants can help in mitigating climate change. There's a lot of climate modeling that is trying to. Group into the winners, the losers and plants that already adapted to drier hotter conditions potentially going to be the winners and in those plants with much more specialised requirements are probably going to be the losers. So we talking about plants that probably adapted to very high altitudes, but we haven the Mediterranean Garden. He's PONSA decided to be in hot dry conditions right yet. Sir The Mediterranean Hot Dry Summers is. The key thing and I suppose mole rainy winters is what they able to survive very sandy soils the other sort of things so that this drainage in the summertime. So reduction in leaf surface area is a big key one for many plants. Then Rose Marie remember familiar with they will have very small leaps. So what's going on there is because you've then got less area for the water to evaporate. Exactly. To extremely, they've lost their leaves entirely the a lot of succulent plants, for example, even maybe cactuses and stuff like that. You'll have no leaves and the only thing you seeing there the leaves actually the thorns and that is a deputation for Dr Varmints those can do quite well if they're able to deal with the winter temperatures that we have in the UK. So with the Mediterranean planting and a garden, you've got to think about the whole year the whole season. May Have some good donations to some a drought able to survive frost. Many of the plants have got his and maybe a great. So that's all about reflecting light making sure that the heat doesn't impact on the photosynthetic capability of the plant, but also the his will trap moisture close to the surface. So, what about the loses? We come back to the issue with high altitude plants, especially Alpine plants for example, many of them have adapted to an extreme environment in growing, which is rapidly disappearing. So obviously as temperatures rise, we're GONNA have increasing temperature that's going to move up a mountain environment. There's they're gonNA lose space depending on where they are in the mountain and the sort of micro-climate, the topography of that mountain maybe. Opportunities for them to hide out, but there's also this competition with other species that also moving up the mountain they may be foster better competitors may grow faster, Alpine planck tend to burberry slowly because of the extreme environment in extreme conditions they're having to survive, and so there is sort of those loses at pins on their the physiology depends on the mountain itself and whether they're going to be able to survive or not. So we've got a giant Redwood they've been here for one hundred and fifty years some of the largest plants in the world they don't grow to their natural size here in the garden even though they are hundred fifty years old because of various constraints. But this plant is useful in the climate change trail because it can show how much carbon a large tree like this can lock away I think came up to fifty tons of carbon dioxide the same as eight. Flights from London to Sydney on the one hand that sounds pretty impressive. But on the other hand, that's all the trees. Yes and if you think how many flights, there are obviously every day all the time to different locations. The idea of planting trees to offset all of our carbon emissions is we're going to be a very sustainable things just not enough land i. think that's what we're trying to bring home with the this point the trail, but it's not just individual plants that can mitigate against some of the impacts climate changes I'm pretty sure you've got a landscape type of environment on this trail somewhere. Well yes. So the other point of the display being a carbon sick, very fitting became. CAN WE GONNA look? Yes. Definitely. Just to describe where we are, we've come into an area is waterlogged. What classic plants would you find in this kind of environment? Well, you gotTa love. Stages. Of Reese, if you have the water logging taking place over a period of time, you have the buildup of the Pete, which then provides that substrate Mitchell the plant. So then growing I'm what exactly as peace so pete as an organic material that is forms of time through very slow to note decomposition of organic material, dead plants pretty much in terms. Of A, very low oxygen environment the decomposition is very much slowed. So they've matter is made volt up maintained within that environment becomes the substrate. It has got a very wonderful structure in that in terms of what holding capacity and other features that make it very good for composting and providing structure to your soils and gardens, and hence become very poplin horticulture. For many many years though in recent decades, we realize that the peters actually locking away carbon the extraction of peat. The whole industry is is releasing huge amounts of two in the atmosphere which would have been locked away not only that it's also this this Rahab Rahab attack that sort of been destroyed for that Pete to be extracted for I've gotten most of our been natural habitat has actually been lost in the UK. been extensive in this East Anglian. Region calls of waterlogged conditions relying land areas that was all drained a while back for agriculture agriculture was working very well for a long time in the environment because the soils once you've trained them, they're very high nutrients, but the loss of habitat has resulted in the loss and extinction of large number of different species. So the whole fen land area in terms of agriculture. Is Sinking for one in that as the Pete degrades, it's no longer waterlogged carbon is being. Broken down releases carbon dioxide, and that is then increasing the amount of carbon dioxide is coming up. So now the whole area is actually a carbon source where it used to be a carbon sink. So it's a very rare and protected habitat and we tried to recreate it here sounds like a remarkable walk shantelle helmed there from Cambridge University panic garden. Now, we can't of course, just talk about plant life without referring to the animals that live in and on and around them pollinators are very often in the news and we're very worried about their declining numbers in some cases and the on would effect on the diversity and also productivity. So to think about this Andrew Bladen is with us. He works at Cambridge University and he's done filled work quite literally looking at butterflies how they respond to climate change what you're trying to find out than Andrew. So like many species, butterflies are showing effects of climate change at the population level. So we've seen the species of moving north in Europe north, America and similarly to the plants that chantal talking about species that are adapted to mountains tend to be declining, becoming more and more restricted, and they're also changes in behavior species start to emerge earlier in warm years but all of these sort of population level changes that we can detect a likely to be caused by individual Fleiss. Responses to temperature, but we actually know very little about how butterflies respond on an individual level. So what we were trying to find out was exactly that what the butterflies due to respond to temperature offense fail and come we linked to what's happening a large scale, and of course, the butterflies that do inhabit environments that have different ranges of temperatures are going to be affected differently in the way that you've just been identifying. So are there therefore some winners and some losers here? Yeah. So the interesting thing is the population level research, blockbuster conservation, and long term monitoring over the last forty years has shown that despite the fact that our climate is probably improving the majority of species about two thirds to three quarters of our species are still declining. The suspicion is that that's because there's still a big effect of Habitat Fragmentation and habitat loss on species but. Within that, there are a small number species doing quite well and species that are expanding their ranges northwards quite rapidly, and those generally tend to be the species that are more ubiquitous. They're the ones that can do well in lots of different environments and they can survive in lots of different environments. So the winners just win more and the ones that are already a bit vulnerable. They're finding it even harder to do you actually know when you look at those those winners and losers do you know what it is? That sets them apart why some are just a bit more resilient and some are more vulnerable. And that's something that we've been looking at specifically in terms of how they adapt their their behavior to different temperatures. But I'm going to hold off a little bit and telling you the results that because we've got a paper coming out in a couple of weeks. So if you watch this space, there should be more answers coming very very soon in general as you'd expect really species the more able to cope with a broad range of temperatures those that are able to to adapt generally to a wide range of temperatures tend to be getting better and those which are very specialist and have very specific temperature wants to be doing worse. What about the services they provide to the plants I started this by referring to the fact they are pollinators. People often overlook the role of of the LEPIDOPTERISTS, butterflies, moths, etc in terms of their their contribution to the pollination effort. What. Has Been The impact of these changes on what will be the impact of these changes on our plants and flowers and crops pollinated. Yes. You're exactly right. So about eighty five percent of crops within the are insect pollinated and most people assumed that that's all done by bees. But in fact, honeybees which are people think of as much cooler pollinators. pollinate about five to fifteen percent of crops, which leaves the other eighty five to ninety five percent to be pollinated by bumblebees solar tribe's multiple butterflies, overflights, Beatles, and all sorts of other insects, and so actually, the diversity of the community is really really important for crop pollination is estimated to be worth hundreds of billions of pounds. and. So if we take your findings and we extrapolate them to what the impact might be on pollination of crops, does that mean it's automatically A worrying picture or is it just that? Because we don't think the overall numbers of pollinators are gonNA. Go down just the diversity is going to drop actually we probably will get away with it The loss of numbers this is worrying because summer going up. There's potentially since some buffering, but the thing is that because insect numbers fluctuate. Wildly from year to year, and so some species will do well in one year, and then partly another year and at the same time, a different species will do partly in the first year and well in another the and by having that diversity of insect pollinators landscape, it means that actually we can be more resilient. So in a in any given year, we've go more options for the species that can pollinate our crops. The worrying thing is if we lose some diversity, we become less resilient and say the reviewer options for species to pull pollinate, and therefore the chances of having a really bad year where pollination fails becomes more and more likely and actually the reliance that we currently have an is developing worldwide on Honeybee for pollination is particularly worrying because essentially if something bad happens to honeybees. We've lost the diversity of walled insect pollinators that could be able to pick up the pieces. What can gardeners due to help? One thing is plant a wide range of wildflowers to help give him a helping hand things that flower throughout the season another thing is to try and reduce the use of pesticides and herbicides because they are directly killing are insects, and the final thing is try and actually be messier in the garden Mo- less leave some more taller vegetation which helps insects survive through the winter. Andrew. Thank you. That's and she played in he's at the University of Cambridge. So Ross. Basically Mo-. Less Chuck fewer chemicals on. Have a messy garden. Would you go along with that? I think in in principle I would I I think we can. Go back to nature a little bit and the design of our gardens and the site. The rougher approach provides a lot of benefits proviso benefit for wildlife briefing for mentioned der Liebe Capturing Ren- holding water. The ability to provide a better micro-climate for wildlife but also thrush ourselves along with a slightly more relaxed attitude to gardens, and then the day guarantee places won't enjoy and lock enjoyment comes from seeing nature. So Gardens without butterflies without bards. Pretty poor soul. Really. Loan a well manicured lawn is often seen as as the thing we all aspire to but actually one person described these things sort of by diversity desert horrible mono culture that's very demanding on our time of our input returns very little value. Is that true and be there for should I get rid of my lawn and if I should I replace it with? Yeah the the Green Desert look manicured lawns have their place. If you've got happened be luxury of crooked law or grass tennis score has to be close more than and functional. The reality is most of. Of managing or loans which are not necessarily to benefit, you can let alone grow bit longer. You can get the wildflowers coming in you can have the pollinators insects and you can also retain that degree of respectability is that we're using what we call co-accused here. So he cut passed through it if you. Keep certain parts of it tidy. You can actually still have the best of both worlds nice legible, walkable pass through the through the garden at the same time allowing some rough and ready spots within the law, and that actually tracks the wildlife and provides that resilience don't forget your antihistamines. Ross, thanks very much. Indeed that's Ross Cameron from University of Sheffield that makes you feel better about my own garden actually now from creatures that live in harmony with plants to plant pests and as twenty twenty, actually the International Year of plant health there's no better time to be talking about them. Now climate change is going to affect these pests to potentially impacting our ability to grow food. Even this is what Sebastian Eve's Vanden ACA studies and he's particularly interested in nematodes. So Sebastian more actually is a narrowed. So nematodes are for the most part, these microscopic worms and although most people haven't probably never heard of an towed, they are incredibly numerous right so if you were just account all of the animals on the planet one by one, then nematodes would account for more than half. So on average most animals and imitates. This great quote by a famous Nathan Cobb and to paraphrase, he says that if you were to remove magically all of the matter on the planet, but you left an imitator in place, you would still be able to see faintly the the hills and the valleys and the fields and the an and the rivers simply by the does that used to live now Sounds like an incredibly well kept secret. So if everywhere whether you actually studied them, most nematodes are kind of good guys right to the important parts of many different ecosystems and carry out many important ecosystem services. So for example, that can eat detritus and and things like that. But a few of them have evolved to be parasites. As, you say this year being International Year of plant health what we work on his global food security and some of these parasites, parasites, plants, a major threat to global food security I see, and so how do they actually cause disease? What makes them parasitic the condos that I work with a soil borne live in the soil and the stars, the roots of plants, and what they do is they move inside the root of the plant and they make the plant make Chuma now this. Is really the wrong word but it's got the right kind of connotations. This tumor is this new tissue that forms inside the plant that drains the plant resources and imitate eats, and so you can imagine if you've got lots of nematodes making the plot and make this structure that it doesn't want, and that's draining the resources and ultimately that can damage the plant, what kind of crops do they effect or plant other than crops well. Basically, every plant in the world. So there's at least one species of NEMATODE for every. Major food crop of the world and most plants at the world. So if if you've got a plant that will be imitated that can Paris ties it and whether it's on your plans or not and what my climate change due to them are they looking to have a good time or bad time with what we're expecting to change in the climate particularly maybe in the UK over the next few years, it's really hard to predict. I mean we can definitely say that will have an impact climate change will have an impact but saying what that impact is going to be. What is going to be a challenge? So for the particular kind of NATO that we work on which potato cyst nematode, unsurprisingly the parasites potatoes, and in the UK, as there are actually two species and one of which likes it hot and the other one which likes it cold and so in this case, which you know quite clearly that if for example, the average temperature and in particular if the minimum temperature in the UK increases, then this one is going to do better but in most cases actually predicting the dynamics of how that's going to change as quite quite challenging. I. Guess It's something of a complicated relationship between the NEMATODE and the and the plant in those cases because they are they are parasites is there anything we can do to stop them? Yeah there's number ways you can control nematodes or indeed any plant disease. You know we're all thinking about immunity at the moment you know what's going on the health crisis and so with me with this idea of how being immune to to parasites and diseases, and of course, plants have immune systems as well. But their museums quite different from animals and so on. The most pot plants don't have an adaptive immune system, they have innate immune system. And I find it quite remarkable that most plants are immune to most diseases even though they haven't seen them whereas for example, with for an animal to become immune to some diseases there would have to have. Some experience of that, and so immune plant is one of the best ways that we can. We can combine these. But there are other ways you know involve inputs for example, pesticides will by managing your crop rotations and things like that. I see. So ideal scenario is just have a plant there isn't vulnerable to these nematodes. I mean, that's the golden but it if you like but you know you never count against evolution and so if you have plans to arm you ultimately you will get nematodes or other patterns that can find a way around that. So really a diversity of approaches is the best way. So many toads are everywhere but what about other diseases that can affect plants are they likely to be a problem too? Yeah, absolutely I mean there are two different diseases of plants. They can be restricted the different parts of the world geographically, and you can imagine that some of those either those diseases themselves or their vectors will like different temperatures. So again, if the climate changes in the UK then it's likely that this will make you came more suitable to some of those other pathogens or less suitable. So different viruses, different kinds of bacterial infections that could affect plants. I mean they're. Exactly. So one that people have heard of a lot in the news recently, Zeila this is bacteria that infects plants, and this is sort of on the board of the UK if you like but concrete make. And that might change with with climate change. That's exactly right. Yeah. Is restricted by temperature. Thank you so much. Sebastian that was Sebastian. Eve's funding ACA. It really brings the possible effects of climate. Change home doesn't it to think about what might be going to happen in just in garden or or local park even Thanks also to our other guests, this week, Ross Cameron Shanto Helm, and Andrew Bladen, and to wrap up this week. Phil. SANSOM has an answer to this wonderful question from our young listener Jonathan and hopefully, it will make splash for you. Said, he has ordered I have a question when you start a water. The washer is pushed to the outside however, why you any part and up in the center after the water is finished spending asked my dad but he doesn't know. Jonathan. I. Don't Blame Your Dad for not knowing the thing that you're describing is actually a thing that confused physicists for ages. They called it the tea leaf paradox because they saw happening when they stirred their T. About one hundred, fifty years ago they managed to solve it and now Dan Knicks trump from maynooth university here to solve it again for us it's all got to do with how the wall her moves after you stop spinning and the fact that it's dragging the particles along with it. If you look at a clear bowl full of war from the side. You'll notice that when you spin, it decides go up really high and the center goes down low. Now because the Centrifugal Force from you starring pushes the water out towards the edge on its pushed upwards when it hits the side of the container. Centrifugal Force is a force that pushes spinning thing outwards and it's often called a fake force because what's really going on is the water just wants to move in a straight line and it hits the edge of the bucket and that just makes it look like it's being forced outwards. The result is this world pool with high edges When you stop starring the interest in happens. So the water at the edge under particles that it's dragging along witted, get pushed downwards by gravity. The ball into center intern goes back upwards. So this means the water to the edge floors down to the bottom inwards to the centre and back up to the top again on this loop is repeated over and over and over as it's all slowing down. The park was driving like this to. It's all very complicated but. As it gets slower and slower, the force pulling the particles gets weaker and weaker onto that's not able to fight against gravity and can't pull them up at the center anymore. So. This means they'll get dropped right there at the center one after the other. I just did this myself and my kitchen test it out and Jonathan. You're one hundred percent, right? The little bits of Schmidt's dual ended up in the center. All thanks to this pattern that the water is flowing in thanks Dan ECKSTROM. Next time we're leaving behind and talking about an entirely different liquid thanks to this question from. Charlie maybe this is just me but it dawned on me that whenever I have to hold an a. p. the need to go increases exponentially when I know that relief is close. Why is this? Do you know the answer don't hold in? Do Tell us you can join in the debate on forum naked scientist Dot com slash forum all sending your answer via social. Media and if you have a question of your own, you can ask via our website by going to naked scientists, dot com slash question or emailing Chris at the naked scientists dot com, and that's where we must leave it for this week with thanks of course, Katie Halo who put the program together and to tell you please be sure to tune in at the same time next week because we're going to be doing an in-depth analysis to try to find out where did the new corona virus come from but I can tell you is the naked scientists comes to you from Cambridge, university's in of continuing education and it supported by Rolls Royce. Thanks for listening in until next time you buy.
146 Author Laura E. Weymouth
"This is what cooked you. I'm Broccoli and thanks for listening on this. I talked to Laura. WEYMOUTH was there's a new book from Harvard Teen Coming. Out on September the tenth entitled Treason of Thorns and this so I talked to Laura about what this book about her First Book Delay Between Worlds and kind of her influences and world building so listen it so Laura what book hooked you so the very first I book that helps me is a different odd one when I was probably four or five years old because I was one of those bizarre precocious children my mom in an effort to just feed my veracious appetite for books took out the complete unabridged Swiss family Robinson Robinson from the library and read me the entire thing and it's basically just a glorified instruction manual and I absolutely loved it and it was a hey. It's still one of my favorite books. It's got plenty of problems when viewed from a modern standpoint but I absolutely loved listening to my mom read. It was one of the first books that I read on my own strangely enough once I learned how to read and then on I think my ninth birthday I got a beautiful hardcover edition of my the owner of this book and it is still my most favorite volume of anything that I own and like my most treasured book because for some reason I've just always loved this ridiculous story about with this just kind of insufferable colonial family living on this deserted island populated with just this biologically biologically improbable spectrum of animals and living this idyllic life in the middle of nowhere it is I think meant to read need realistically but actually comes off. Rather strongly is fantasy so I think that's what drew me to it in the first place. That's that's great and I don't think I've ever read the book I used to love the live Action Disney movie that old movie that they made back in the day yes. I think there's a lot more more actual conflict in the movie adaptation than there is in the book itself which like I said it's kind of just an instruction manual like there's Instructions on how to build bridges make dishes out of gourds and really almost no plot whatsoever and I just loved and still love that book and so from this from this book and this story just kind of the depth and the passion you had for it like what books for maybe this point then where you really sort of drawn ron to the most while you may have read widely. What were the ones that really were the most beloved by you. I think that that that book really as already touched on by saying that it was meant to read as realistic but came across is fantasy is what sparked my love for fantasy is a genre because that it has kind of been a defining feature of my experience as a reader and a writer even from a young age is that I went from that book to loving the chronicles of Narnia loving the Red Wall books looks loving the Lord of the Rings Loving Madeline lanes books so it was really just the foundation for a lifelong love of fantasy novels and then at what point was it at the same time that you were also creating your own stories. Yes my Berry. I finished story that I wrote was a short fiction. In third grade called nights lament and it was about a knight named Sir Paddington who goes off on a noble quest I and gets fatally wounded in the course of this question then on his deathbed laments how he wished he'd never become a night at all and that he settled down married his childhood aalto. Sweetheart Ellen and lived a quiet life. I've really just kind of continued on in that vein of writing bittersweet classic fantasy and so even as you can have moved into your teenage years that usually time where life gets a little bit busier was I was reading those still as important for you and or did it change in some way if anything I read and wrote fantasy even more in that it was an outlet and a way of escaping from just the troubled world that we live in and I really really enjoyed that aspect of it of just getting to go somewhere else where conflict resolution is still difficult but a lot of time more clear cut and more black and white so that's something that always drew me to reading fantasy and to writing it as well and was the always the dream that bs stories this writing would sometime at some point be published or we just kind of doing it for yourself. I was definitely doing it for myself and I've told the story before on twitter but what I really never considered publication even as gold I could pursue because I didn't know any writers and it didn't seem like something achievable to me until my tenth grade English class when we had a supply teacher for a month who was the very weathered grey kind of stately looking the older gentleman named Mr Stapley handed in a creative writing assignment to him and he graded it and gave it back to me and when he handed back looked in the eyes and he said in in prophetic tones Laura. If you are not published someday I missed my mark and that was the first time anyone had even suggested to me that it was something that I could do and it's just stood out in my mind ever since that moment and that was really when it first occurred to me. Oh this is something that I could pursue could pursue seeing my work in print as a goal that's great and so with that kind of elbowing will say did is that sort of what you're set in your sights on and like after high school was sort of your aim to be an author it was actually my name initially the to finish up a degree in medieval and Renaissance Studies and become a professor but then I had a quarter life crisis I dropped out of college and and I got married and had children very soon after I got married and when my oldest daughter was six months old it occurred to me that it would be very very easy to lose myself and my passions and who I am in the kind of all consuming role of motherhood and so I decided that since I had this beautiful wonderful little daughter who I wanted to serve as a role model for that I was going to be very purposeful in channeling at least some of my energy into my own MM pursuits in my own passions so that she would grow up seeing that I was my own person who had things that I wanted to achieve interests that I wanted to pursue Assu and so that's when I started writing again this time quite seriously and with the intent of Korean my work going after that goal of publication and I would imagine you it was it was obviously rooted in fantasy these early stories these early attempts. Did you a have authors at that time that you could say really inspired your writing in your storytelling. I I would say that might writing mice storytelling have always been I would say to a great degree inspired by Madeleine title angle for one rely. She's a defoe author to say that about but the way she integrates more realistic settings with fantasy the the way she incorporates poetry and her work just kind of the the humility of some of her characters something that I've always really aspired to achieve in my own work and she writes very practically about about quite relevant things I think of her book a ring of endless light which was enormously important to me as a teenager and it's about a young woman's first experiences variances with grief for first experiences with what we would now think of this depression. I those are the sorts of stories I've always striven to right and and so how many attempts at creating these stories and sending it out did it take before you got to your debut the light between world. I wrote a lot before actually querying I'd written consistently throughout. My teens probably wrote you know five hundred thousand words abandoned pro is as a teenager. I wrote one completed novel. My first completed start to finish absolutely done novel at the age of Nineteen and that's my drawer book that lives in a drawer and it will never come out. Nobody gets to see it and then after my daughter Maggie was born went ahead that a pithy of wanting to write seriously for the goal of publication I wrote wrote one novel which I queried for about a year and a half never got anywhere with and while I was clearing that towards the end of the clearing process success I wrote another book which became my debut the light between worlds and I drafted that in about four months queried it for a total of two weeks and that's the they got me an offer of represent several offers representation so now your new book comes up on September the tenth a treason of thorns and so it start talking about that and what is this book about a treason of Thorns is essentially the love child of beauty and the beast in Downton Abbey wherein a young noblewoman dwell dispossessed daughter of a nobleman who is charged with treason violet sterling returns to her our Family Home Burley House which is important in fact ascension and living entity in its own right. It's one of the five great houses of England which which are living magical beings and which oversee the good and the wellbeing of all of the English countryside and violent discovers covers that her ancestral family home Burley House is in point of fact slowly dying and it's going to be up to her to figure out how to save it and how to balance wants the wellbeing of Burleigh House with the good of the countryside which is obviously suffering as Burley sufferers and what was that initial thing uh that kind of got you started writing that the initial idea there were few things up weirdly. A lot of my ideas seem to be born on twitter probably because I spent way too much time on twitter but there's a bought on twitter which is sort of a magical religion bought in its tweets about an English country garden. Pardon that's you know but spooky and haunted and I read one of the tweets and wrote a micro fiction based on it and one of my critique partners just loved it and desperately wanted me to write a a larger version of this micro fiction so she passed her knee about that for a while and then during the same time period I read an article about highclere castle which is the Prince of Wales House in England. Just this beautiful building and one of its facades just looks like it has so much personality to it and so those two things coupled with the fact that I was also re watching Downton Abbey kind of congealed and coagulated into this idea in my head of a book in which this Manor House was itself a character and central to the plot of the book and one of the things I thought was really interesting. When I saw that you were coming out with a different book is that this second book is a sequel to the first I and a Lotta times when I've seen you know debut authors. They have these big fantasy novels. The second one is always kind of a sequel so there for the headache and all the the pressure that comes with a second book. They're still living in the same world for you. You had to create a whole Second World for the second book so what was that like as a as a sophomore release it was I think fairly similar to the experience of creating the world of the light between worlds because they are both historical fantasies so while a treason of thorns is set in a different time periods in fact alternate history history English worlds so you know I got to research the countryside and figure out how the magic system was going to play into England's history and Dan you know all those things just sort of figuring out where things overlap but I really appreciate the challenge of writing a standalone novel and of trying to encapsulate your world world in your story in a shorter form than a lot of fantasy readers are used to and I actually really liked to read standalone fantasies as well because I just you know where I've got young kids. It's hard sometimes for me to remember what's happening from one book to another and so when you're creating these worlds how much do you as the writer wants to know about the INS and outs the magic the rules all of that it before you kind of dive in. Do you WanNa know a lot or do you want to go in and kind of be surprised by the story and the characters where it takes you. I'm definitely in the latter camp. I like to build the world as I write the story so that the details of the world sort of flow out of the progression progression of the plot the development of the characters and they just sort of seamlessly intermarry because of that I know some people love to do their world building really extensively in at advance but that's not me and it doesn't mean that sometimes you know I get derailed for several days. We'll have to research certain plot points or you know. How do you actually make make linen from scratch but it it's definitely I definitely prefer to do the world building as I go sort of on the fly and you mentioned having Beta readers. How important is that to you in your drafting process. It's hugely important to me. I have have a writers group that I'm part of which is myself five other writers and we're constantly bouncing ideas off each other. You know if something's not working saying we asked for help brainstorming if we're not quite sure how something would organically develop from certain plot point last each other a bone that we run lines past each other and drafts are finished. That's always our GOTO source for people to look at our work I because we all trust each other's feedback back in perspectives in know that none of us are going to just tear strip off somebody give negative feedback and no positive so it's a really safe place is in which to brainstorm and receive constructive criticism and when you're drafting a story do you you still pretty much. Open yourself up. Are you actively reading. other fantasy books are is there ever any fear that it could cross contaminate emanate or influence too much. Maybe what you're writing. I very rarely read fantasy while in the process of drafting I generally only tend to to read it while on revising or in between projects it's. I don't particularly fear that it's going to cross contaminate what I'm working on. I just find that I'm I'm not as interested in it while I'm consumed by the creation of one of my own worlds in my own stories so I tend to read more poetry nonfiction more contemporary fiction at those times and then my fantasy reading tends to happen when I'm revising or between deadlines and both books take place in a magical England setting is that kind of your sort of sweet spot or did it just sort of happened that bow stories. That was a similar setting that kind of work with what you wanted to do. I just sort of happened that way I until the light between worlds I actually primarily wrote secondary world fantasy so just sort of stumbling into historical fantasy was exciting for me me and a way to us you know my background is history major and I really really enjoy all the research that went into creating the light between worlds industries reason of thorns and are there other fantasy writers that when you kind of are not drafting that you that you really have enjoyed and really we like their writing and their world building. Yes I really absolutely adore Margaret. Roger Sens works she wrote enchantment of Ravens and Sorcery Thorns. She just creates such lush beautiful immersive worlds. I really absolutely loved a book called Nem by Bethany Moro which has just this opulent Nineteen Thirties set exploration of of memory and what it means to be human. That's really really beautiful. Book and I really enjoy Joanna Myers work. She wrote beneath the hunting sea the echo north and has another book coming up called I think beyond the shadowed earth and most recently I read a book called the beholder by Anna Bright and it was just this lovely fairytale inspired shipboard voyage and there was mentions of Bobby Aga in and I have a lifelong fascination August so I really loved that book as well and she just she did the podcast while back for that and what do you can in a what still maybe your biggest obstacle when when writing maybe with fantasy or just kind of in general that is still a struggle is still something you you kind of have to be cognizant of about and really work on well. Unfortunately my my editor at my agent are both adamant that my books have to have plots which I think is ridiculous. I it's perfectly fine to have characters wandering around audible settings just having conversations. I don't understand why there has to be some kind of guiding conflict but that would definitely be my weak spot would be plot development and particularly getting in the murky middle. That's funny and then maybe that goes back to your early influence of Swiss Family Robinson Right. I never thought of that. Yes isn't just sort of plot adventure in the middle of nowhere and what may be non fantasy. You said you you know you like a lot of poetry. You like a lot of non fiction. Is there a specific topic that you kind of really get into a really kind of Geek out about you know that's it's completely separate from fantasy animals. I'm a big animal person. We have a lot of pets my career aspirated as a very small child was to be a veterinarian and that never panned out but I just you know I love books about animals sign Montgomery's work. I love everything James Herriot it ever wrote. They're just delightful charming homey books and basically just anything about living creatures. I really love that kind of thing which also explains Swiss Family Robinson so there you have and as a finisher rate is it is it difficult to be be promoting are in the further steps of publishing with one book when you're trying to draft another book especially given that they may be in two different worlds. It is so confusing. Sometimes people ask me all the time. I'll how's the book going and I really never had any idea which book they're referring to breath because it could be the book that promoting it could be the one that's already been on sale for months. It could be one of the two that usually drafting at any given time so usually have have to stop and ask them to clarify which which book do you mean so it yeah it. It does get a bit bewildering. There's a lot to keep track of and I've got multiple whiteboards awards up my office with notes scribbled all over them about different things to do lists and plots and all that great well. Let's wind down here and as we do you ask you a few questions the first one being what is your favorite movie. That's based on a book. This is that if a cliche answer but I think the Lord of the Rings Films Did such an incredible job of capturing the tone and spirit in the heart of that trilogy obviously they couldn't incorporate operate everything because the trilogy is vast and you'd never be able to put everything onscreen but just in a in a spiritual sense. It's it really really beautiful. Take on the books next question then is is there a series or a book that you're willing to admit you've either never never read or never finished. I never finished the Harry Potter series. I realized this is absolutely scandalous but I don't know I just got bogged down and I never finished the not a problem and actually and regular listeners will know that's probably the most popular answer to this question really not the only one that makes me feel so much better. There are many there are many and then finally what is the last great book that you've read. I Bake I would say the last great book that I read was the queen's rising by Rebecca Ross which is a renaissance inspired fantasy about about a young woman who is trying to find her passion in life basically as as a guiding pursuit thing she's going to go into his career and it just leads are on all sorts of unexpected adventures and it was just so lush and the world building was really really beautiful and I really thoroughly enjoyed that as a read great for a treason of thorns comes out on September tenth from Harbor Team and best talked. You and we can't wait to see what else you have for us. Thank you so much for hosting the great time and that wraps up this episode. I WANNA thank Laura Weymouth for joining me again. HER NEWEST BOOK IS A treason of thorns which comes out on September tenth from Harper. Check it out also her first book delay between between the Worlds and I hope you'll check out some of the other great episodes we have with why authors. I broke shelley until next time. Keep reading.
Episode 426: Ponderosa & Thymes Katie Davis; plus, our state focus: Tennessee
"Hello again and welcome back to the slow flowers. podcasts Deborah Printing episode four hundred and twenty. Six this is the weekly podcast about American flowers and the people who grow and assigned with them. It's all about making a conscious choice and I invite you to join the conversation and the creative community as we discuss the vital topics of saving our domestic flower farms and supporting a floral industry. That relies on a safe seasonal and local supply of flowers and foliage. This podcast is brought to you by slow. FLOWERS DOT com the free nationwide on my directory. To florus shops is studios who designed with American grown flowers and to the farms that grow those blooms. It's it's the conscious choice for buying and sending flowers and thank you to our lead sponsor Flores Review magazine. I'm delighted to serve as contributing editor for slow flowers. Journal found in the pages of Florus Review. It's the leading trade magazine in the floral industry and the only independent periodical for the retail. Tell Wholesale and supplier market take advantage of the special subscription offer for members of the slow flowers community at Deborah printing dot com where you can also also find the show notes for today's episode four hundred and Twenty Six and now through the end of the year you can take part in the buy one give one subscription program and I'll have a special link to that to our first sponsor thanks goes to farmers Web Farmers Web software makes it simple for flower farms to streamline working with their buyers. Here's by lessening the administrative load and increasing efficiency farmers web helps your farm save time reduce errors and work with more buyers overall. Tom Learn more at farmers web dot com. Today we're continuing our theme for two thousand Nineteen Fifty states of slow flowers with Laura. The big be fought of Whites Creek. Flower Farm in Whites Creek Tennessee. Listen for my conversation with Laura in the second portion of this episode but I I I'm delighted to introduce you to Katy Davis of Ponderosa and time. Katie and I first met in the spring of two thousand fourteen while attending a little flower school workshop. At shriners Iris Gardens in Salem Oregon I was there to produce an article about the class for Country Gardens magazine and Katie. A hometown Gal was one of the many talented designers attended a few years. Later would may ash wholesale florist plan. It's Portland Oregon Branch Grand Opening Katie. And and I were invited to present designed demonstrations during the party. It was such a thrill to share that experience with her for me. Gave me a new appreciation for Katie's artistry extre- and affinity for designing with color texture and nature as her Muse Ponderosa and time. Join slow flowers in two thousand eighteen and I've been wanting to interview Katie and share her amazing story with you ever since as I stay in our conversation it's silly that Katie and I live in adjacent states and yet have waited this long to record our episode. Let's blame the slaps in part to our mutual busy travel schedules. Katie has been a nomadic floral design educator for the past several ears and well you know I'm always on the road myself to be fair though. She's not a nomad but an artist whose desire is to develop and lead experiences and opportunities opportunities centered around creativity. Authenticity and personal growth florist is the artistic medium. Katie uses to facilitate these experiences. This Katie is known for nurturing supportive and inspiring learning environments that are immersive intimate beautiful warm she values environments where people can be truly early present and connect honestly with themselves and others in their pursuit of artistic expression and a sustainable life. Katy Davis is an internationally acclaimed named florist based in Salem Oregon the heart of the Willamette valley since founding Ponderosa and time in two thousand eleven Katie has become known for her textual designs lines inspired by nature. Her floral designs use the most luxurious and beautiful flowers available while incorporating locally foraged unique and sensory plants into into each arrangement the result is a visually breathtaking experience. Katie's design aesthetic could be best described as playful romantic irby and fragrant in addition to creating florals for intimate weddings. Katie and her team host incredible workshops worldwide for floors and other creatives to explore the Arctic. Arta Floral Design Ponderosa and time continues to offer wedding and event services specializing in intimate and heartfelt experiences with a heart for education. Katie has been teaching floral design since two thousand fourteen serving clients across the globe. Flowers are a language of their own while teaching English. Katie is able to cross cultures offers with her thoughtful and emotional approach just as comfortable teaching the basics as she is pushing experienced professionals to expand their creative boundaries. Katie loves to help people. People grow discover and connect the Ponderosa Workshop Retreats Have Taken Katie to Italy Scotland France. Australia and New York. She's also been invited. Vital to teach in Korea Mexico and across the US with the advent of twenty twenty the ponderosa classroom in Salem Oregon is gearing up for a full series of workshops including one day and two day intensive sessions that focus on specific skills techniques and designs to facilitate artistic expression in floral design. Inner Dr Conversation. You'll hear Katy discuss decision in two thousand eighteen to lease a brick and mortar location in her beautiful hometown. I'm thrilled to share our chat with you and I invite Vite you to visit. Today's show notes for Episode Four Hundred Twenty Six at tepper prison dot com to see images of Katie her workshops her new classroom space and her floral art. We'll also share links to her social places so you can find and follow Condor Osa and time. Let's get started Welcome back to the slow flowers. PODCAST with Deborah Printing. And I'm so delighted today to have someone on as a guest who have been trying to link up with for a long time. Welcome Katy Davis of Ponderosa and time. Hi I'm so thrilled to be here. Finally with you has been a long time coming. I know it's pathetic that were once stayed away from each other but it's very difficult not to connect so Thanks for saying. I'm so glad I've something I've been wanting to do Thanks for happy. You bet well Katie and I met originally really I think about four years ago maybe at a workshop at shriners irises right totally. Yep I forgot that's where we first met our no true you and it was a wonderful little flower school workshop and then we teamed up. Did a little demo together which I feel so embarrassed that I was sharing the stage to automate Yash. Were vent all my word. I had this. I had a similar feeling about you know like I was feeling like I'm sitting standing next to greatness at me. I felt totally out of my league designing next year. It was really an honor. Oh usually a the moment that I look much affection and feeling like I was growing up the designing Thank you that's released at least kind of you. It was really a fun. Event and I've I've followed. I followed your amazing career and with just complete of awe. Aw and I'm so happy that you joined slow flowers. I know you are an advocate for sourcing locally and seasonally when you can and you're you're based in Salem Oregon right yeah yes I am. I have a classroom in downtown. Salem and the historic area building is Mac DAB right there exa capital beautiful. I love that and you are kind of in the you know the the part of Oregon that is agriculturally rich with with farms and yet wineries but also flower firms. So let's start by. Just I'd like to ask you to just give us a snapshot of Ponderosa and time as it looks today and then we'll we'll backed up a little bit in a while and get the get your journey. How do you describe Ponderosa Time Today? I like that Right now okay right now I'm sitting in my In my classroom and right now it's empty so it's a little equity but when there's the people in here it's a really warm and beautiful We've got windows. That are that. Wrap the side of the building that we're on and so we just have incredible Window Light Let's face Light airy beautiful we have natural wood floors that have been you know not restored restored but kind of lovingly. They're very distressed and we just we just made them. We lead into that so there are these beautiful distressed floors. There's and we're just feel really lucky to be in a in a historic part of Salem And really right down in the middle of where everything is happening in Salem. So Yeah I feel like I I kinda lucked out with the space that we have And and we teach classes and here is it's my dream. It was always my dream to have a place to teach I never imagined that it would be in my hometown. I kinda thought it would take me. You know going somewhere else. And so when the space became available in my in my home town the place that I grew up You know and it seemed like the city. He was ready for what we're doing so we just leaned in to see and it's and it's been really successful. It's been really wonderful. Teach classes you know. People come in from all over the world to learn about about flowers and experience the beauty of the Willamette valley and I feel really honored to be able to be apart right in the middle of it. All all right in the middle of all this amazing agricultural amazing flowers Yeah it's really special and I feel like I get to introduce these people to it. I love you know and I used to take it for granted where we live but really everything grows hair. It's really incredible. And I know it's not normal to to be surrounded by amazing so I thought well let's make Salema destination for Florida's. Let's make it a place where people want to come and learn about this incredible environment. Then you know neat then you open to kind of our goal. Yeah and you open the classroom within the last year right. Yes Ah we've been in our face now sending year in October. Oh Wow okay well happy other exactly. Yeah and a roughly. How big is it in square footage twice? Oh Gosh I'm horrible at square footage We like to have classes of eight people. Definitely perfect call people at our classes and everybody has a table so you know not set up and it's cozy but it's not too tight and you know that's that's about the size I right listen. Katie share some photos. And we'll put them on the show notes for today's episode. Then people can see it. Okay I'll never and just being being a pacific North Westerner. I have to say Salem Elim if for anyone who's listening in does not know where Salem is. It's just a very short less than one hour. Drive from Portland Oregon International Airport. So you really are in Anna like a relatively accessible hub from major airport really really close. Yeah so in addition to your classes classes that people can go take account. Come to Salem and take with you. You have a really active online presence. icy you go live almost every day with some very spontaneous. I don't think it's scripted. It's just you going live on. Meteorite that true. Yes so how did how did how did that. Become part of your brand so it was a natural sort of need of that. I saw I. I experimented with instagram. Live almost as soon as it came out and I thought you know this seems like something that will help people to be able to understand who I camas human and not just Beautiful photos on a screen and so It was really important to me. Is The people connected with me as a as a person and not just a brand um from the beginning and so as soon as you know that tool became accessible for me I realized that that was something that I could use to really help people. We'll get to know me and be able to reach the people that I want to reach and it and it really has done that for me. I it's not scripted. I usually don't plan it very well. And sometimes that shows shows You know but I do have a really amazing group of people that I get to connect with online on instagram daily. And it's it's it's pretty special. Wow and Katie I. I'm just curious about your personality. Do you consider yourself an extrovert or like how do you. It's your you just seem so natural and yet. I don't think you're extremely I don't know I don't think you're somebody who brags about herself or who has to kind of be the in the spotlight. It's more authentic and kind of personal the way you approach communication. I really appreciate those words because I it's weird to say those words that yourself but it's nice to hear them I you know I don't. I don't consider myself an an extrovert. I technically when I took the test X. number introverted I actually showed up as an ambivert. Which is somebody who's right in the middle middle of extroverted and introverted technically? I'm a little bit more. Introverted than extroverted but indifference can be great performers and they're good on a stage And so even though. I leaned toward the introverted side. I do you need a lot of alone time to recharge. I also love being with people I need to be with the people. I love people why I do what I do. people are my passion and Yeah I'm passionate about people but I need a lot at low time to recharge so got. I've got to figure that that one out yet that falls under balance right so Italy. Yeah totally while I like it. It's really fun and it's also I it's unexpected like if I'm on if I'm scrolling through instagram and you up I just jump in for a little bit but it's not like it's not like you're scheduled super scheduled like nine. AM every day okay. Now that's fun. No that's not my personality. I wish I was. I wish I the more scheduled person but no are you. Are you not good at that. But that's okay I think we all I like the spontaneity of it seems to be authentic as as well like I kind of wanted you to comment a little bit on. What do you want to share with people? Are you in almost always in your studio or on location somewhere or or are you shopping for flowers. What all of the above? Yeah I mean I I try to just take people behind the scenes to moments that I find find really beautiful That's usually when I'll go behind the scenes for stuff is like usually when I'm experiencing something just really really beautiful and I think you know this might really encourage somebody or this might really Really speak to a large group of people on instagram right now. I just want to share this with them and I don't do that. was everything like yesterday I was experiencing sending really really beautiful at my house and I thought Oh gosh maybe I should go live and I thought no no no. I'M GONNA stay president here with my fam- right now. So I don't I don't go live all the time But there are moments that I feel like our special share with people. A Lotta Times like if we're doing a photo shoot for workshop or something and I think Oh this is really beautiful and I feel like I've been present enough then I'll I'll do something like uncle life maybe in those was in but The other reason is usually just because I have an idea Then I wanNA share with the group and I just WanNa try something something out and I want to share it with them maybe the process of it Or I feel like I have kind of a message for our community that I wanNA share message of connection action or hope usually It just kinda depends on a lot of times. I feel like sharing that message through the medium of flowers whether I'm doing a far meditation meditation or doing a tutorial is a great way to kind of reach people heart I feel like you know the social media world is really full of a lot out of comparison and a lot of anxiety and I kind of just WanNa be a moment of peace in the middle of it all. That's my hope. When you get online that people could interact with my feet per minute and they'd walk away feeling better about themselves afterward? I love that well the Ponderosa in time time business name has a story. I'm sure and I'm curious in a war. When when did you start the business and what was your original? Maybe you original version of ponderous. Rousson time I know it's evolved to hear about that it totally has PADRAS and time started seven seven years ago. I think. Gosh I'm really bad at my time. I but Before that I was Katy Davis flowers and events. I used to coordinate weddings and events and do the flowers for them I'm really good at coordinating weddings. I realized pretty soon that you know I really wanted to coordinate. My own events They turn that energy. So you know of doing things for other people and turned it into energy for my business and I started. Coordinating my own. workshops and retreats and stuff like that and started focusing more on flowers instead of that work Like coordinating stuff Realizing that I needed to put my energy into one thing and I was definitely more passionate about the flower process so I just focused on flowers and got better at them and really you know I've been doing it. I've been where I worked in a flower shop when I was sixteen I've been doing flower sense. I'm thirty you who got Sheldon I. I'm thirty seven to two thirds of your life. Yeah two thirds of your life doing this. Wow Yep it's my my passion it's my life feels like a like a another win on my body you know Yeah so I feel like it's always been there but I think you know when I decided to make the leap from you know trying to do everything to really focusing in on flowers and and perfecting my art form around that I really fell in love with it with artistry of it And and I'm a natural teacher. I've also had teaching jobs throughout my life and different aspects And I started wondering if you know maybe the things that I learned in the past teaching different kinds of things maybe that would you know translate into flowers and so I tried it out in my front living room for Christmas centerpiece class and You know the rest is history discovered that I love teaching flowers as much as I love teaching other things things and that was really good at it and so that was pretty early on in honor of time I knew that I was going to teach probably within the first year or and a half Yeah so I was. I've been duly my business to get to a point where I could just teach. Because that's that is my passion. I love flowers I consider forestry my art form But teaching is my passion. Wow so when you talk about teaching through Ponderosa and time have pre sounds like pretty early on you. Stop pursuing wedding bookings for four weddings. Yes I took a lot of weddings. You know for the income for sure but there was also an element of it that I really wanted to learn as much as I could so that I can have the conversations about weddings. You know with people that are doing them. I wanted to be able to teach out of a place of knowing So I still take events and weddings. I learn a lot from them every I am. I do them so I always have something to talk about This last year though I only took I think three three events right right but your that I really respect that because there is that that that added those who can't teach or some stupid thing like that and you're you're you're defying defying and. It's usually about academics. Not Not Florida. But you're right here though. Yeah your your current enough in knowing that demands of wedding forestry but when you do teach those questions inevitably come up from your students. You're able to give them real life advice from from your experience and I worked in the wedding industry doing wedding for three years. Yeah I mean I I know it in. I know the industry in-and-out out I I. I decided pretty pretty soon into my career that I didn't think I wanNA big weddings You Know I. I had the opportunity to work on a few really really large weddings with large budgets. And I realized that world isn't for me. There's there's a lot of reasons why which is really big conversations but for me. Big Weddings are are not the kind of celebration that I that I would normally want to take on. And so that meant that my the budget for in general going to be a lot smaller And that's primarily. The world that I know is smaller wedding budget industry because I chose like I said pretty early on to not really try to pursue really really big event. But that's hard you know to to not do big events. You I mean your budget's going to be you know you're the budgets that you're working with are going to be a lot smaller which means you're gonNA have to do a lot more and for me. I knew that doing weddings wasn't my passion and so I had to pretty quickly make the decision to just dive into teaching. If I wasn't GonNa do for weddings and a weekend we'll from met first workshop in your living room. Teaching Christmas Design A to international teaching workshops shop slash retreats. I feel like they're really experiences that you're leading How did that I mean what was the first big FREAKING scary. We risk. You took to put one of those. Those destination workshops together well. I think that you use the term perfectly freaking scary. That's exactly what it was and I don't recommend to anyone do what we did You know we. We put our personal finances on the line for that workshop shop We we Faith or rented a space that was incredible very expensive All all of the Richard Star because the locations. Go to our incredible. And that's part of it but you know the very first one. I had only done one. Retreat leap before I did it as a test. Run to make sure I could to pull one off and afterwards I knew. Oh Yeah. I've got this this is going to be great And I I was in Ireland Kind of Last minute ship to Ireland. I'd never actually gone on a solo trip before I'd never been to Europe and I got asked to do flowers or a Sotogrande workshops in Ireland and I got my plane tickets a long story but the plane ticket or the plane ticket and my passport came. You know the day before I had to get on a plane I've been raised by the seat of my pants sense Ireland was definitely a whirlwind trip for me. I learned a lot about sourcing. Flowers and other places It was a it was a trial by fire but I but I made it in on that trip. I met the people who introduced me to the idea of even taking a workshop to England I met Sarah from wedding sparrow and she helped me and connected me with some people And the next April I think that was is in July and the next April. I had my first workshop in England and it was it was a magical experience. Definitely the biggest financial risk I've ever taken for my business or myself personally And it was definitely scary. We didn't know if we'd sell the tickets it. It was a huge risk but I believed in in the what I felt like it was the calling is a teacher. I believe that I might. People are all over the world and I needed to go to them Because I knew that if I just started something here in Salem they might not find me but if I went to England. It's pretty central and sure enough. You know we had twelve all students from eight different countries And it was humbling. I mean I cried every night when I went to bed so I was so overwhelmed by it And I still feel that way. Every time I teach a retreat and it sells and people come I you know I just cry when a workshop south out. 'cause I can't believe it GonNa Lucky And I'm crying on the phone. I know I'M GONNA tear up to. I mean it's just it's there's nothing better than doing what you love love and knowing that you're enriching the lives of others and that's what teaching in its purest. Form is true so in a in addition to England Ireland whether countries have you led workshops in Oh man well actually haven't led a workshop in Ireland. Oh Me Oh okay. Yeah but that was my first trip. My first trip to Europe was I was doing flowers for workshop right. Okay Yeah but We Ireland's come in. I'm hoping for it. We've done workshops in England. We've done them Spain We were in Italy you this year and last year We've been in France twice Gosh I'm trying to think of anywhere else we've been I have taught ought in Mexico. I didn't leave the workshop there but I got I was. I got to do some guest teaching there that Super Special and I know I'm cricketing Oh Okay I put on the spot with that well and then in addition to teaching Kind of closer to home. And which is you've done workshops shops similar to your international ones in Oregon. Haven't you yeah. I'll tell ya one in Oregon. We've done we've done some On on on the East Coast as well in the south Just kind of we've kind of spread out and I've done a lot of guests teaching to Sometimes they kind of overlap so it just it just sorta depends on you know a lot of times. They'll come in as a guest teacher for like a multi teacher conference always really really fun kind of like Lower Stockley. We're talking about right right so tell me if if someone was ask you your aesthetic. How would you describe it? I mean it's I don't Wanna I know what I would think but I want to hear what you have to so I'm like I want to know what you think I don't know I always think of it as being fragrant and Irby and textural I love lots of textures. I don't know I always think about the way it smells when I look at my mother's so what I want you to sign that Pantai Bouquet When we were doing that may ship and a couple of years ago? Oh Yeah I just was enthralled by the anonymous minimalist minimalists at all. You are but Lou. But you're able to take what might to some seem like a complete. You know ECLECTIC pile. Hi of flowers and integrate them by using balance in line and color and form repetition and color echoes goes and all all the things that artists would do on a pallet on canvas. The whole the end result is so surprising. In extreme compared to the you know the starting point of just a bunch of stems on the table it was lovely to walk. Oh that's fun. Thank you and your so well obviously inspired by the material. The the stems the botanical As you're you know kind of your Muse when you probably it does sign. It's it's fair doesn't strike me as something. That's very recipe driven. No I do create recipes. You know if I have have a have an event or something create a recipe first centerpieces for instance or whatever. But if I'm if I had the opportunity to just create something on one off that's always the best. I love that Super Fun and I'm definitely driven by what is in the bucket in front of me. I think that's life for me. Working with local flowers is the best thing ever. Because you're just never going to get you know these perfect dabs. They're always going to have special movement Dan toward different kinds of coloring. That you would not normally see and so I find you. Know any kind of abnormality that or different kinds of shapes. That's something Eh for me is absolutely going to dictate the shape that I read in the end. Well your mentioning local flowers. And we've kind of alluded to the fact that you live in in a region where there are a lot of great power farmers. I remember seeing you at the Pacific Northwest Cut. Flower growers meet up a couple years ago. And I my first reaction was what is she doing now is is there going to be a ponderous and time farm. I mean were you. Are you growing at all. Or was that more for education I'm fascinated by growing. I'm not great at growing yes I have a property at a beautiful new property that I It's a blank canvas and I'm I'M GONNA attempt to make a garden in it Awesome really excited about it. So I'm learning a lot about soil right now. That's my big focus is learning about slow because that's obviously foundational And then I'm hoping to just get my soil to a really good spot this next year and then hopefully put some flowers in this spray. We'll not oh my goodness that is exciting. Well you're highly aware of The flowers in your region and we talked. I'd love to talk a little bit about your so sourcing practices I I also interested in The challenges that you faced when you do teach internationally because obviously you just fly in and you have have to make things happen long distance before you get there. There are two different completely different Game plans whether you're doing something in your own backyard in your hometown. Yeah Oh yeah totally. I mean that's part of what we're super excited about this next year. We're doing a lot more at home. And and part of what. I'm I'm really excited about out of the very you know besides just being near home that's GonNa be great but also we're going to be able to use local flowers like for almost every every single class we do And that for me is is really really wonderful I can call you know five or six people people that I live within twenty or thirty minutes of me and I have buckets the local flowers within a few hours. If I need them I either have to go pick them up or sometimes sometimes they drop them off but I mean I just I have everything I need really really close to me. And that's it's not. That isn't like a normal situation and So I feel really lucky for that but I you know when I'm traveling. It's a completely different thing. I have to plan way in advance and if I try to use is local flowers Honestly every single trip I've taken and tried to depend on local hours. It's been something that's happened where You know whether happened or season happened and the flowers that I was expecting weren't there weren't available and it's happened so many times times now that I've primarily have to depend on flowers that are that are not local and harder for me. It's just a hard you know. It's just a reality As you know and I do source ethically as much as I. Can you know do the research that can I work with companies that I know are ethically but I ask a lot of questions questions I you know if I'm going to try to go to places that I know I can get some local flowers like when I'm going to London for instance I know so When I go to flower market there growers there are there are wholesalers? They bring in lots and lots of local. So I asked that okay. Point me in the direction When I go to places that are a little bit more remote where we have to have stuff shipped in you know? Luckily there are companies that can work with that will ship mayflower sure Sure figured great. Yeah when I need it but it does. It does have a different aesthetic. It seems In some cases I'm sure you can make gorgeous stuff with all imported flowers. It's it's just a slightly different. Look than wouldn't you've got some wacky crooked stem Kim that you're grooving on. Yeah but that's really interesting and I think it's I'm impressed that you are Decision to open your classroom in Salem and perhaps have more Training and teaching in that region is because the availability. Well probably for a lot of reasons. Because you don't have to travel as much but but also the availability of resources that you can use for your workshops ups from local farms. This really cool. Well I just I feel like it's a responsibility thing and a lot of ways like me really leading into what I have here and being thankful for it a and saying hey tom experiencing experience the abundance what we have come experience. This like people shouldn't should be able to experience this you know and sometime in their lifetime because it's beautiful if they don't have it in their backyard problems come to a place where it exists you know and see it the And learn about it because I think the limit values a really great place to learn about About well the kinds of flowers that can grow together. I'm always surprised what I see right right and you know the thing that you mentioned them. We'll we'll valley. I have to say it's pretty temperate and in terms of the climate being temperate. So you probably can go almost to Thanksgiving and start up again. Maybe march or April. It's a little bit winters shorter. It seems yeah and not as a fierce. It's pretty mild usually watch now. This will be the worst winter ever on record or knock on wood. Yeah Yeah I mean we have similar climates here so you have winter pal. Your your Winter Palette though is more muted and more quiet and but I think you design beautiful items with that absolutely absolutely. Well I'm just excited to see what happens to your with your school. Can you talk a little bit about what you have coming up in the in the twenty twenty season. I mean we're almost choosers. Well three-quarters yeah Yeah I ah. We're announcing our dates this weekend. So I guess by the time this airs they'll still have just been announced And we are yeah. We're are releasing winter date soon and I am hoping that they sell out quickly. I'm that's always the hope isn't it but yeah We're GONNA efficiency doing after classes. It's here in the classroom Here in Salem and I'm not going to be doing any international retreats next year because I really want to focus on building building this classroom and making it making it everything I want it to be They don't already is what I want. But it's really you know. Having more people in Harris the more people we have in here at home I feel so yeah. That's our goal is less wonderful classroom and we'll have lots of masterclasses is that we're teaching out of this space Most of them will be one or two days so people can kind of you know take a class and then get back to their normal life. it won't be as much of a retreat setting. I don't know I think for me. Taking a break from the chiefs is important Just because I have to. I'm going to be focusing. Hang on like I said creating this atmosphere here in Salem and also I'm starting a book so I'm going to start writing that this year. Oh my gosh. That is so exciting. I can't believe that are you What can you tell us about it? Will it be designed book or that's a good question it well it's it's in cross us so It will be about color. I believe that going to be about color. Lovely and obviously flowers will be a part of it. Yeah I guess you will be in creating all the visuals for the book and design spy you will be featured in it you. Well that will have to put. Okay I tell you what Katie when the book comes out. We'll do another. We'll do another conversation. That sound bud and then you also are continuing you in your online presence with education there right. Yeah Yep it's really important to me to stay active in Instagram So I will continue. Did you do the live videos. But we've also launched a live video platform I'm kind of calling it the net flicks for Flores Because that's essentially how it's operating I'm Developing videos every month and releasing them on there and then People can access them anytime. I'm an growing library of the to`real and meditation they do far meditations at how to's and conversations and and I don't know it's really good resource Really proud of it and we're GONNA be working really really hard this next coming year to really grow grow that that presence Grow that community. Because it's it's pretty beautiful already any proud of it and people can access that at your website right. Yeah they can't and find out info on my website. Gosh this is really nice. Thanks for letting me take time to talk about that yet. I want to ask you just before we wrap up describe. What a flower meditation Asian is? I'm so intrigued. Son's yeah well you know I am not a person that can just sort of sit and try to think. Think about nothing I that has never worked for me So when or to think about to empty my mind like that's not something that works for me. So every because I'm an imitation practice I find my my mind wandering and not able to payment down but what I discovered with working with powers is that when I'm working with lower my mind is empty of everything else Usually usually the kind of intense thoughts intense feelings that I've been experiencing throughout the they kind of go away or go out as I'm processing to my to my hours or even the good feelings that I'm having I call is that when I'm designing with flowers more than any other time and so I was doing it. Just as a kind of a natural practice for myself and recognizing. This is my way way of meditating. This is how I do it and I always come out of those sessions just invigorated and with answers and feeling like I process this information really well and so then I started doing them without telling anybody what it was on instagram. Live and people responses does too. It was just huge. People loved that And they were really like. They were getting similar experiences that I was getting. That's wonderful. Yeah Yeah so then. I just decided that something. I'm GONNA continue do on it but it's nice when it could be somewhere permanent tooth so that the part of online line crosser that we've added. I think you've put a name or description to something that is so universal and that many people have as you said experience whether they're you're in nature or gardening or signing with flowers. I know I've had that same experience myself. When I worked on the slow flowers book it was literally the only time time every week that I was away from electronics and quiet by myself and I just got a little shiver listening to you? Because I know that feeling you're describing I and I'm so glad you're making it accessible and available to people who are seeking a way to kind of connect better with themselves and their feeling ailing so sounds beautiful. Yeah we we all do have access to it you know. I think we all know where that that space of creativity exists and when we can access that just for ourselves as flowers of the medium. It's especially good But I you know I think that for me. That's part part of what I feel like. I'm called to do is help people to be able to connect with himself and their creative voice and for me far meditation or that idea of creating and feed of prophecy. You know that that for me is the way that I get there I it differs for everybody but find that space is really. It's really powerful. It's really beautiful and definitely my passions interview people that IBS. I love it. Wow okay this has been such a fun conversation. Thank you so much for for making the time in your schedule and just bringing me up to speed on all the amazing racing things that you're involved in and of it a lot. Well we'll you. Oh I I'm so grateful to and I'm serious about when the book comes out. We'll have a part of this conversation. How does that? That'd be amazing I'd love it Thanks again Katie. This has been a beautiful moment in my day. And I'm so glad we can share the listeners. It's great to talk to you Catholic. Take your Thank you so much for joining my conversation today with Katy Davis of Ponderosa and time time my heart is filled with admiration and affection for Katy. And I'm delighted. You joined us be sure to check out the ponderosa classroom online. A new project that Katy created as a response to requests for affordably priced in depth online education monthly floral meditations to inspire your creativity recipes for arrangements Prince Information and online discussions on relevant business and creative topics access to music playlists access to full length. Instagram live video replays from Ponderosa and time high quality content accessible twenty four seven connection and community with like hearted. Flower France and more monthly memberships are just ninety ninety nine per month. Annual memberships are only ninety nine dollars. US per year. You can find more details in our links in today's show notes at Deborah for Printing Dot Com our next sponsored thank you goes to syndicate sales an American manufacturer of vases and accessories for the professional florist. Look for the American flag icon to find syndicates. USA Made Products and showing the Syndicate Stars Loyalty Program at Let's syndicates. SALES DOT COM. Now let's visit. Laura biggby fought of whites creek flower farm as part of our Tennessee spotlight in two two thousand and nineteen fifty states of slow for our series established on earth. Day In two thousand twelve whites creek. Flower farm is an artisanal permaculture. Flower our farm. Just outside of Nashville Tennessee whites creek is a stork rural area. And you'll hear Laura describe how beautiful it is there. Her flowers lovingly lovingly grown and organically managed. She grows many unusual varieties specializing in an English country. Garden Aesthetic Laura's bouquets are elegant and imbued with with a sense of whimsy and they are raised with profound respect for the ecosystem of which they are apart. Let's be Laura AM So excited today to be visiting the State of Tennessee as part of our fifty states of slow flowers series this this year. And I'm delighted to introduce Laura big be fought of whites creek flower farm. Hi Laura Hi Deborah. Thanks for jumping on the line with me. Happy to do it. Actually we've never met in person but we've been pen pals for awhile. Well give give me a snapshot of where you're located and a little bit about whites creek flower farm because you're more than a farm. You're also floral design studio right right. uh-huh we are in a little municipality In Davidson County Tennessee That is actually called Whites Creek. It's quite historic. It was settled back in early. Seventeen hundred And but we are within the Nashville city limits. So we're this wonderful little the rural pocket Just northwest of Nashville. In fact we're twenty minutes from downtown. That's great for you because that's probably a lot of your customers are yes they absolutely are. Yes so it's it's perfect. It's a wonderful location. What kind of acreage do have we personally own? Three and a half acres But I also grow. I'm very fortunate that my next door neighbor is a gardner. At our local Botanic Gardens teakwood gardens and she she has a big wonderful backfield about two acres that she also lets me grow on. She's just thrilled to have flowers. Grown back there and So far has not allowed me to pay her rent. It's it's been a wonderful setup and it's completely it's it's adjacent to my high tunnel so it's it's great that's crazy. I mean it's think that you have that much. Access to land in. Basically the shadows of an urban market is a dream. That's wonderful so give us a sense of what you're growing Laura And you mentioned a high tunnel so you're doing field grown as well as undercover yes. Yes in the high tunnel. I'm growing tweedy a- and and Snap Dragons Louisiana this renunciation CALOS have a row of Eucalyptus down the center. Thanks Dave dowling. That's what he recommends what I've done I'm going to grow some both perennial and Annual sweet peas in there as well so So that's all the high tunnel I look for unusual varieties of things to grow Because I'm kind of a plant NERD. Hudson Great Yeah I do I do a lot of Do a lot of unusual perennials and things and I start so far. I've I started everything from seed except the bulbs informs I bring those in but everything else I I start from because that's just such a magical process for me. What is your season? I know Tennessee. I mean it's technically the south. I don't know what your zone is. But it seems like you maybe have a longer growing period than people mighty my suspect. Yeah we're considered mid south here. We're not the deep south right we're mid south and We get crazy easy wild swings in temperature so we can be below zero in winter but we can be over a hundred in the summer so We're in zone seven. Kevin Sound seven a and Yeah we have for farmers who do row crops. We have three growing three. You can get three planting I and the season so it's pretty long starting with the like hell wars and tulips undercover and things like that February we we can start having things in February and then we also undercover. We can have Mums and Dallas and and even some flowers late into November. Wow so you're still. We're here talking on actually on Halloween. And you're still you're still running around harvesting it. Sounds he's like yes. We'll take absolutely I've got MOMS and Since sunflowers and not a whole lot else right now and I will have until tonight because my values are in the field so tonight we're supposed to get a heart brost so they will be. They will be gone tomorrow Well thanks for taking a pause to talk with me. I really wanted to get you into our our a rotation and next week is Tennessee so aubrey so who are you selling to. And how do you sell I. I'm really curious knowing your proximity to Nashville. That you're you're you're probably have a lot of different channels. Yes yes there are quite a few different channels. I started out selling to Selling to the public and farmers market and I just felt I'm a one woman show so I kind of felt like that. That was the best option for me. The and when I started my son was still An elementary school. So he's still pretty young and I didn't want to be on the road with a with a bucket route trying to go out several days a week because I wanted to be available to him so I did a Saturday morning market and that at at one point I was doing at once by myself. Oh my goodness yes other people's staffing the booth or how are you doing that now with me and my little son and my husband of course would help out in the boots you know he would help load and unload and shirt you know help with the tables and stuff like that but Yeah so that I WanNa say it got old really quick but I did love it because I'm an extrovert and I love love meeting the public and working with them but that quickly led to weddings because people would stop by my booth and they go. Oh this is just just what I want my wedding to look like. Do you do weddings. So I started doing wedding design and then that became so profitable that I finally had to let the markets go because because they were really keeping me from doing the weddings and the weddings. What were were what with really paying the bills? So the I've heard similar narratives tips from others in the Cell Towers Community who had that. That's stair step approach with initially at farmers markets and then that led to requests for a wedding design. Do you find the people. See your aesthetic and especially at the farmer's market. They don't really know what to call it. They think it's like a wildflower look which is clearly not but the air there's something that is capturing their Emotional connection to those flowers and I'm just wondering yeah look. How do you describe describe? Your aesthetic does a designer I typically call mine. I even have this verbiage on my website an an English country garden. Look that freshly gathered. It's like you just walked into an English country garden and although I grow an awful lot if natives but that that also really resonates with people especially here in Tennessee because a lot of A lot of our original Citizens since here Trace their ancestry back to England and the Scottish Isles show that really resonates with them to say English Country Garden freshly gathered third So I tend to use that although when people say wildflower They also they'll think about their grandmother's garden here. We are in the somewhat. Were World South and they think back to simpler time when their grandmothers had beautiful flowers and they could just walk out the back kitchen door and cut the flowers and put them on the table. And I think that's why it resonate so deeply with people instead of romance of the handpicked bouquet and fact that they know you. And you're the grower so love that Ryan so how. How long have you had whites creek flow or farming in what led to it? I'm just I don't think I know your story well Initially chilly I was a singer actor. Dancer both my husband and I were and lived in New York City. Just push pests us. The singer actor dancer isn't it considered a triple threat dance. He was the least of the three definitely a Singing actor Oh my goodness with forced to dance. Sometimes you performed in in In New York in the theater world I did did we. We neither one of us. We'd been there several years. And and we were both getting seen for Broadway shows but not getting booking them and I I have off Broadway away credits. And he sang at Carnegie Hall. And you know we we. We just weren't making that step up and we were in our mid thirties and We wanted to have a child so so we left New York and We had a child we moved to Orlando Afford and had a child and Are Wonderful Son Burton and then Various circumstances brought us to to Nashville. Okay and my hus-. My husband is now primarily filmmaker and animator. He still does some acting and voice work and puppet tearing he's he's really cool guy But my son had reached the age where you know. He was a lot more independent and I was like. Oh what am I going to do. It's now community theater didn't cut it for you now. You know I just know I. Yeah I was ready to move on and do something else. I was out planting roses and we had bought this property and we were just you know spending all this time mowing it. And what can we we do with this. Property is crazy and I my husband came out and I was planning roses and he said you look so happy. Why don't you do something like this? And I came inside and googled flower farmer. And that's how I found your book the fifty mile. Okay Oh my goodness wow history so that was probably around seven or eight years ago or let's see that book out two thousand twelve. Yeah Twenty Yeah Twenty Eleven two thousand twelve. Yeah right in there. Wow what a great story. I you know that. Thank you for sharing that. That's isn't that funny. What how did we ever learn anything before the Internet for one thing and look? What's happened for you? I mean I can't quite believe you're a one woman show with access to five acres curse of farming area. I mean that's intended. That's not five acres broken out. I have about a an acre broken out. Okay but the across five acres the large Garden but oh my gosh I had five acres. I just I'd never sleep. Yeah you'd have invaded Laura one of the things that I feel like since I met you and I I I remember reaching out to you when you first joined slow flowers just because I had a A an aunt in Nashville who wanted to send flowers to but of course it was January or something and it didn't work out but that's how we first connected connected personally and I remember thinking there weren't a lot of people doing what you're doing at the time in Nashville but look uh what the explosion of the local flower seen Including people who create yeah including people joining flowers in in Tennessee. I mean what what has happened. And and how. How have you witnessed? That sounds like people probably contact you when they google flower farms in Tennessee. And you pop up. Yeah they absolutely do. And I've really enjoyed. I wouldn't say mentoring but kind of meeting encouraging A lot of the young growers so any time some younger has contacted me and said Hey. Can I come look at your farm. Yup come on over because there. Is You know automate so many mistakes. You May as well learn well and under two floors contact to Erlich. How're you? How are you seeing being things? Change on the on the customer side with Flora's I don't do too much with floors I've had a few contact me But pretty pretty much all my flowers were going to. My design started just growing specifically for things that I like to design the design with So but I like talk about the collective here about our collection. Just share your news. Yeah this is exciting okay. Great we've got so many wonderful talented new growers and designers a ton of new designers. Oh and that was another revenue stream it is it while I didn't sell to Florida to brick and mortars I had a lot of designers who would come to me and it was really it. It was really a cool thing because we could share design tips. There was no like Rival rear like that. You know I mean if they got a Gig that was great because they could come by flowers. If I got a Gig you know. I'm sure they would like to have had it but you know they knew that I grew my own flowers. So it's been a really. It's a really nice community of designers and growers here so I did sell to To the designers contact me but now the demand has grown so much with all the designers and all the brick and mortar that Several growers in Middle Tennessee have banded together together and we formed a COUPLA collective while we can pool our resources and sell directly Both retail and wholesale sale. And so what what is it called. Tennessee cut flower collective. Okay Great. We'll we'll I'd like to try to get uh-huh more information on that to share with people but you currently have a website and a presence on social media and that okay good. We'll share those links than did this happen about. I remember you emailing emailing me about this when it first started within the last year right. Yeah well it I think it officially we're doing our grand opening Next next I in twenty twenty we had kind of a soft trial period. Soft opening This year and I must say it would not have happened. Happened at all if it hadn't been for misty moment from Twin rose farms down in Murfreesboro. Which is south of Nashville Right For several years Six or seven of US had kind of tried every year to get it going but all of us were pretty much one woman one woman show upright and missy and her husband are husband and wife team and in fact. There are three person team because Her brother-in-law is is also involved in the farm so she felt like she could pull away a little bit. She saw the necessity for having you know for selling collectively because we were buying hanging selling even from each other when we needed things for events and actually that was our first line of defense. We will grow to go to the growers. I I you know the local growers. If we didn't have it we go to the local growers and only as a very last resort. We contact a wholesaler but she saw that need and so she stepped away from the farm a little bit. Let her husband and brother-in-law kind of You know have more autonomy with the farm. I guess although she still the events coordinator and does all their business somehow she is an amazing wonder woman ask busy wheeling and yeah no no kidding so it sounds like you all are like that well I hope so for special so so we may think yeah. Can you introduce Michigan me by email and we're gonna try to do something to follow up on this story because I truly believe that. Excuse me that regional it kind of flower focused regional sourcing and marketing and selling is really blowing up. I mean I'm seeing it happened on the country and the The community aspect and the collaborative aspect is really appealing and Maybe you could talk a little bit about how you actually intend to. The cell is at a at a physical location or is it online. Or How's that working. We last year we tried to do an online online plus Physical location there were a lot of complications with that This year We're going to sell L.. We'll be selling for three days a week. Friday Saturday and Sunday at the downtown farmers market which is a fabulous facility that has kind of been underutilized. ICED Me By really the community at large. But it's it's a wonderful facility and they have a fantastic executive director Tasha Canard and she's wanted to get flowers there forever. I sold their one season. And then it was at the end of that season that I stopped and decided to go to you Strictly wedding event design But yes so. We're going to be there three days a week and I. I don't know everything that misty is working on right now but I do believe there will eventually be a An online component where Where designers can place in order does the it is in a way? It sounds like the the farmer's market is kind of this collective may because they have a ample amount of space or using their how. How is that all going to work Eventually we're going to be able to have our own like a a florist store the storefront kind of Cooler right in that location. Yeah we're we're looking at having having one of those there To store just on a weekly basis you know just when people bring things in there will also be a lot of mixed bouquets out to tell the public So those will. I'm not go in the cooler so I think pretty much. Just the the orders for designers will go in the cooler and the Knicks bouquets will be out fortunately It is undercover. They have these wonderful market sheds and there has also been some discussion of us being in the market house which is air conditioned like mcadoo idea. Yeah Yeah especially given the climate issues in Tennessee. Yeah well that can't we can't sell At at market like a syringe just will completely once it hits the hits the outdoor air. You bring it back inside and it fluffs up again so we'll it is key. Yeah and you have that experience base base in probably working in the wedding industry. That's probably why you're busier in the spring and fall with weddings rather other than summer right. Oh absolutely yeah congratulations. It's very exciting. And it's all get whatever links you have now so people people can follow at least on social media and Watch what's happening with the launch of this and then we'll circle back and do another episode to learn more but I'm I'm just. I'm just appreciative of the snapshot of Tennessee. I need to come visit you. We keep talking about it and we'll figure it out maybe in twenty twenty but I I'm murder have you okay Laura. We'll also Love to share photos of you and your flowers and what's going on at whites creek flower farm in today's show shown us or an initial nuts for today's episode so we'll make sure people can find that at reprinting dot com right all right. Thanks so much okay. Thank you You'll want to check out photos. Laura has shared and find links to whites creek flower farms social places in today's patients at Deborah Printing Dot Com. Thank you so much for joining me today. The slow flowers podcast has been downloaded more than five hundred thirty seven thousand times despite listeners. Like you thank you for listening commenting and sharing. It means so much in fact for the month of October which we just wrapped up more than thirteen thousand. This is seven hundred episodes of the sloth. podcast were downloaded by listeners. And that's an all time record. As our movement gains more supporters and more passionate participants who believe in the importance of the American cut flower industry. The momentum is contagious. I know you feel it too. I value your support and invite you to show your thanks with a donation to support my ongoing advocacy education and outreach activities you can find the donate button in the column to the right at Deborah Printing Dot Com our final sponsored this week goes to Arctic Alaska Panties a cooperative of family farms in the heart of Alaska working together to to grow
031 Theme vs. Setting in Boardgames with Paul Grogan
"Hello Fellow adventurers and welcome to the nod lab where we transform our games my feelings about certain things within the game and generally speaking they are open to listen and generally speaking fifty percents of the time roughly books and is performing demos at conventions I have no clue how many games Paul played in his life but it must have been hundreds and the best thing is Paul did there's a lot of games that are coming out this year or the of being out in the last few years the I actually was part of the development team for some of which have been extremely successful which is I am known for the things that you mentioned I create instructional videos online I also do play through videos I'm also a reviewer as well so I wear multiple I'm very happy about but yeah what kind of games Oh gosh just a few of them just a few of them will I I mean let's for this podcast my vision is to take you with me on this exciting journey together we will explore the secrets of different game mechanics and reach the next level as a game designer thank you very much bob and thanks for having meal what an introduction Gosh I've got a lot to live up to today we want to talk a little bit about theme in Games words and that's it the amount of time and effort that goes into development just tweaking all of the little things over a year and a half game changed the topic that you have quite a bit of experience with but before we dive into this topic Could you please introduce yourself Paul and tell the listeners are real book and during that process we say to them I'm also a bit of a Games developer how would you feel if I gave you a couple of comments there except my changes I'm suggesting to the game so even if you hire me to become a rulebook writer you're GonNa get game development on the side because I can't keep my mouth shut in today's episode of I have the honor to talk to poke Rogan of Gaming Rules Youtube China policy creating a huge amount of Che's hire me to write their rule books and they only hire me to write that rulebook because they've heard I'm a good Rubik writer so they go we want to get you to write your Hessian for gains comes from and how you ended up in the bottom industry yes so I'd like my name is Paul Grogan iron the Youtube Channel of gaming rules I'm from CG which is coming out as an Spiel this year I was a developer on the team for that for about a year and a half and he's really nice the board game industry he's famous for his instructional youtube views he explains rude star reviews and play through but he's also professionally editing it only play games he was also involved in the development of each night I'm very happy that he found the time for us today and I would like to welcome you to shop on Burgum aw over the years but now I've I've been involved in a lot of games war I think he's quite well it's me be a funny story but some the older the reviews that are coming in for that which are pretty much extremely positive about that people might look at night game and go oh yeah well he's dead easy it's just less in stones in housing the industry because at the end of the day I'm Gamer I've been a game since the eighties my passion is playing games and I love playing games so I take the work hat off rules most people don't see all of the little bits of development that go on in the background and what's really nice for me is to see people south that conventions or wherever games hobby of a long time and I'm extremely passionate to the point where I'm passionate because I get I get angry in frustration background stuff you do videos on Youtube and people see it and they know you you wrote a rulebook and if people look in the back of the rule book you see Oh editing Paul Grogan ah that's not the game playing when the other times they'll go us a really good idea let's test and then it's really nice for me and this is really uh-huh I put my review a hat and I review videos I also writing rule books as you say in the background I do of getting development so just major behind me if I've got something that I think I wanna say I'll be like ooh have you thought about this another half of the time they go no we thought this went on for years and I wasn't being paid for any of it because I had a a well-paid. It job I was doing it because it was my hobby and for me I was getting care of it I'm quite proud of that especially when the good with the game's not good then I'm not surprised of it of course not when did when did you get into the industry so when did you the Channel Start for example yeah I mean he's been around I think he's six years now I'm kind of in the industry again this this is a very long story we could have a whole I was like oh I get to see the new CG Games beforehand and all of this law but essentially it was work that I was doing you know I was spending three days printing and they don't wind up buying certain things I am one of the things that I was trained to do for their hobby which we lived with to basically help some of the public and that's how it started Dr Doughty sensually the big step from me doing it as a volunteer and if you look on BG over the next year or two I got to know them and then I said Lo I love your games these games are just fantastic and I really like them and I I really like what you're doing if there's any way at all so help how with something then you know please let me know so they would be sending me prototypes which I would play with my friends and I do all of this ten years ago you will find like Faq documents created by me because I was very passionate about rule books and if the game was out there and the rule but wasn't clear I would be asking all of these questions to the designer getting all of the different answers together and creating an Faq document that was just something that was in my blood it was something I wanted to do is it go now maybe and they said pull on average per week how many hours of work do you do for rules and I would out that it was probably about well maybe the oh I decided that I would make a change in I would try and start working in the industry now it was a big risk you know so many people ask me Paul I cost just about this but essentially I am I am a gay man as I mentioned I've been going twice in this is my twentieth year of going to so I've been around a long time I've been in choose who I really liked so when CG I arrived in two thousand six with a with a card game called through the ages I I was like all over do you do tell me how to do it why did was a big risk I left a job I started gaming rules without any idea of whether this would be a full-time interim would you say it's still a good idea to approach publishers and offer some kind of volunteer work to get into the industry well it's how I started I mean it so but then when CG started paying for the work that I did over a couple of years period things with my professional career working out as much as I wanted why I wanted to do it and in the end the boss of CG sat me down one day this is going by six seventy if you ever needed any play testing or anything like that let me know and if you're desperate for the money alongside euro the job start doing start offering on job or a part time job or it might not work out at all I would be approaching publishers who had been doing free work for and saying I'm going to start you do this it's not fair on you that you're doing all of this work for for no money we need to start paying you and I was like Oh okay it was probably about twenty hours a month I was doing for them for for for free you know anything rule books and helping with testing games and everything else and they said we can't keep playing a game and they're playing a game and they're enjoying the game and I'm looking at my game and going ooh that little bit and that was that was that was me as well it gives me win the game absolutely we have to start with the definition because everybody's definition of this word is different exactly so we're going to have to define what we different words of setting and theme most games have a setting if you take something like castles of Burgundy as an on possibly that would be different from somebody who's listening to this show so me a thematic game well let's start with the Collagen you now this is how much I'm going to start charging and it was a big risk and it's worked out in my case which which is good but I know a number of other people when the mechanisms within the game match what reality would actually be percents thank y'all also for introducing yourself and giving us some insights about about your own journey I know this is not the first time you you're going to talk about the folks the publishers are unlikely to just snap you up on that story away what I've heard is I've been going to for twenty years I've been in the hobby it has no theme is not matic game but he has a setting so for me again is a thing matic game and a game has theme Dematic Games but the might be a couple of little rules in them which which awfully matic rules so yeah it it's definitely a sliding scale anyway approach them and say look I'm a big Fan of your work I love this game I love that game and if the you know if you ever need any help just another pair of eyes on the rule book or in Games I'm actually one of my listeners major Hogan recommended you as a subject matter expert for the mets games right and we are where I am now it's it's definitely full-time trust me I've had I think two days off in four years I believe that but it's a great it's a great story when the when the actions and the decisions you make and the outcome especially the outcome if all of the these make sense definition of a thematic game I really liked it a related to distinguish between a setting and theme for me the Meta Gamers the equipment like climbing hooks or rogue or any other form of equipment that could give me an advantage for scooter it also makes a lot of sense the end the outcome of my role creating a prototype dungeon pets we then traveled to a UK convention and spend two days damage to people for no financial compensation whatsoever because I was percent would do in the real world or fictional world as well and you talked about that scale and I love that as well because for me the most so if they correlate with the real world or at least a fictional word so what you do in the game is really what the character for example that help and then see how that's how it worked out for me kind of accidentally book yeah I probably recommend that thank you pull the wool great advice pull that has a setting a call remember what the setting is it's probably some medieval city in some way wherever right but it has a setting whether or not I'm able to climb up that mountain in order to escape from a monster all of it makes sense for me the action of climbing a mountain is not a trivial one therefore the them so thematic and come up with three three reasons the first one is the narrative plays an important role and it really helps players. I know there's a game master the roots are often more interpreted than strictly after rooms and lot- happen players minds instead of on board a lot of listeners of this show also want to to get into the industry and they were really inspirational to to to hear how you made it and committee game and on the other end there maybe abstract games where you only have a carts with printed numbers on them and you compare the numbers there's it isn't just black and white there on just matic games a non-party Games there are euros which are probably would not be classed as which of course come to come to life by adding narrative to them so so for me this is the top of the the pinnacle offer Earthy Meta Games them and as a starting point I would propose to start with the definition of theme so what would you say is theme for a long time I've got a lot of context I know people I've got that background and that's really helped get to get to where I am and yeah agreeing with what you're saying I would class some of the stuff that you've just described as thematic as immersive so the fact that you're playing a game this up with a specific human like character it would be to get involved with I don't know a Raven trying to steal some cherries from a tree or a frog trying to jump into chance of failure is real the school check make sense for me I'm under pressure which may result in a penalty for that go check also realistic maybe my character has who who are trying to do it and nobody's you can't just mail publisher and say hi I'm Joe Bloggs rule books if you pay me I'll let you Ruben oh so that makes sense and the thing is that in an RPG campaign you are faced with realistic situations and your actions 'cause realistic consequences what's it is basically a P- application of gay mechanisms do they fit with the setting and if they do then it's and a few years ago I would have hated role to resolve games now I'm still not a big fan of role to resolve as a as a gay mechanism team at all maybe yeah so and what would you say is in between is there some games that you can cluster in between or is it chester is it game everything is a sliding scale you know you'll you'll if you take zero to one hundred I can you give a game and I can tell you in my opinion where it fits on that scale you feel that you're actually playing the character your narrative story and everything else you are immersed in that game that for me I mean I can play a very think he takes and everything that we talk about over everything that I talk about is based on mighty definition of the word theme under thematic game into domestic mood the second is you control a character or one could say you really represent that character and it's easy to identify it certainly in a competitive game I don't like role to resolve in a competitive game because we win or lose can be just down automatic game easily dungeons entering 's okay so when I roll a dice for a skill check for example to determine the magic game that doesn't have that is what I'm saying so I I would I would separate them now he's interesting that you mentioned roleplaying games because I'm glad we're having this conversation you also you also mentioned Euro Games and these games like midnight and gloom haven and whatever they they all have at least some kind of narrative Mrs in minuses from your from your attack role and then you work out with you with you Mayo no so if you want something in the middle between roleplaying games that I would say the roundup dice luke thoughts when we come to combat and let's take gloom haven or descend or e kind of you know dungeon crawler adventure I do not recommend because that's how it worked for me if you WANNA get to where we're on more if you just want to little bit of it find a petition that you like thematic the I mean not that I get into so advise dragons but if you're trying to find a monster it would be kind of also makes sense because either I managed to climb up or lose the CRIP and fall down Yup and I know our pitches are not directly comparable to board games in the game and in Europe Games you often do not have narrative doesn't play too much of a role there now so when you compared ruling type game now I'm I'm a Euro Gamer by heart I like moving little wooden cubes around deterministic results Kyle's from an area and then putting them on a location that matches the number of the I rolled Dasa purely abstract game with the setting at the bottom of the scale if I was building up some kind of village in Medieval Europe I would not be rolling two D six choosing and you know well actually saying maybe it's not right down at the end of the scale because the buildings that you can build if you build the bank it gives you silver okay you could say that steamatic which is a euro game you're playing cards and you're in a bike race on everything else but all of the rules of the game you go oh yeah that makes sense now another three years ago because three years ago I would have said something different let's take something like descend all gloom haven or any kind of dungeon the role the surprise the excitement is it going to here is not going to hit and if we go back to the original topic which is Matt Games I think he's absolutely at the end of each turn the cyclist who is the head of the group takes an exhaustion called because they're the ones out in the front of the group and they basically you know cycling uphill work exactly as you think they would and as the game goes on you'll Reuters get tired or entire which is represented is I mean I I play major because it's a challenge and it's a puzzle an oh how am I gonNa play these chords then I'll bring but it's a different story and I would probably have to trauma of exhaustion car than the other players and this would be a decision that decision real bicycler would have if you build the the the barracks you get four extra workers okay there's this very slight correlation between the building name and the fact that they have on the I would probably have the option to to be the one in the front or not and if I if I if I decide to be the the bike in the them where would you would you put the Euro Games on that scale well it really depends on the game okay. I'll just say castles a burgundy we mentioned earlier all right is Roy placement euro okay so there is an action space on the board and if you go there you collect three would right the my marker on that space and I take three cubes right the fact that you called it a worker in three would doesn't make Mattie game but here's how we can make game and as well and the result would also be a real result so this is what makes a game for me thematic yeah I mean if we if we take take a standard were you can only collect one or maybe two would but then you sneak home early on you will gain you know some happiness points or whatever who I'm going to try and hit the dragon try to hit the dragon you rolling the dice in your hand and you roll them and you like yeah you don't have that with you don't have that Sundin whether you hit but it would be based on your skill your skill with the weapon or all of those factors which you mentioned earlier on positives and negatives is one that sort of advertise themselves as a role playing game but they're actually just a board game You know I agree with that and the day would be in the middle somewhere doc and the options you have as a plan because I want that options to be kind of similar to the options to correct would have in that situation and in in your example little bit more thematic right you're going to play that work on that space you gotTa choice you can either get three would by by doing a full day's work or if you want to a you are in a fight with the monster if that fight is done in a deterministic way searches made which is my number one favorite game defy the I have a worker and we're in a forest and we're in medieval England and I go there and take three would it could be an abstract game is so suddenly you have decisions to make the game we not only are important decisions to make in the game book the outcome of those decisions patient into incredible game designs and learn how to nerd like a boss my name is Marvin and I'm an ambitious game designer on my quest to develop a cooperative fantasy card game tomorrow to build a shed so I'll tell you what yeah today I'm going to go to the forest and I'm going to spend all day and I'm going to work really hard and I'll get forward but then tomorrow I'm going to be fatigued breaking the Arrow or whatever is hard work for them the way that the hills work in the game the way that going uphill the game mechanisms the support the the sneaked away from home early and sat at home or if you really wanted to you could work extra you can collect four would but then you get home late and you're tired and you'll lose one thing Matt Euro Game I really didn't know that game but it sounds it sounds great yup for me it's all it's all about the decisions to be able to do less on the next day you can going back to the immersion thing again you now feel that your character in the game and you've actually made that decision and you know if more games were like where they there was thematic explanations for the rules and the game mechanic supported it then then not the fact that you ruining out of college in your deck and you become more and more exhausted it's brilliant on is extremely thematic and I would say that is a very good example of the you said it's not pleasant to what is in between for you I mean just just going back to what you've identified there a few for me and I'm not a book that right down at the end of the scale and I have no problem with Stephenville these one of my favorite designers and I love ninety nine percents of these games well one hundred has a realistic thing Mattie count you can actually imagine going Oh i'll tell you what I need for wood to build a shed and I'm really need that forward now because Dave's coming around uh-huh yeah but for me RPG's are the pinnacle of games and even if they are not directly comparable I thought about what makes maybe one thousand nine hundred percent let's go to the other end of the scale on a on a euro game we try feelings very matic and it's Flam Rouge flood you know because a lot of people assume that because I'm a Euro Gamer I don't like the Mattie Games and he's completely wrong you know it's just that most of the Games play don't have many rules in them but when they have rules if I was playing that game to describe to you and I'm hoping one of your listeners now goes often designs and if you've got your your ultimate gain that you've designed and you take it to a play test weekend and nineteen out of the twenty people who give you feedback with across the road without getting you can you can go crazy and yet my only advice if you need let's say the gang was too long and too complicated you need to change it you need to listen to that because otherwise what it depends on why you WanNa make the title but there are some people that do so bearing in mind for me to give any advice it really depends I might one rules you're going to have to add and the comes a point where you just go wait a minute we've played one round of this game and he's taken us three hours because I'm rolling the dice to see owners perspective is how much of the real life do you want to simulate in your game because in some ways you have to abstract your game I mean of course aside from the star what kind of game you want to make all you're going to make the ultimate realistic simulation of life or are you going to make a game which plays in thirty how many games coming out the their games which you can appeal to different target audiences I'm GonNa gain came out a few years ago called the colonists the sweet spot here between simulation and abstraction of of the real life well thing is with the gaming industry the Gaming Hobby as it is now there are so is I make are actually they matter more or less assimilation of the real world in the question really is from go to the to the forest and trump some some would there but in real life maybe your wife calls and you have to go home because your kid fall of I was very surprised when the colonists came out because if you were to play the full game colonists with four players it's eight hours games don't come on interesting so you talked about the difference between setting and theme so when you start to create a game take eight hours to play anymore it's a rarity and if somebody had said to me if you said to me now pool game designing it's going to be great if you WanNa make again just for yourself that's fine but if you WANNA make a game that's going to be marketable you need to listen to independent advice from from third parties Yeah Yeah great thank you for the for the advice here I really like it and maybe we can we can talk plagued with your friends well play them with your friends to see if it works but then don't listen to what they say because they're going to say it's great take independent play test groups and get feedback from other people in his and once you've got your original concept then you need to play with people who are not your friends I mean that's my biggest piece of advice for any any gamers came to design a game what do you need in the beginning do you do you start with the setting in mind or do you start with a theme in mind or do you start with I would I would say the setting is not something you would start with using the definition of setting as I described only wrong which is just the world in your wife calls and your kids falling over at school and you've got to leave work and you've got to do a lot they might want the more realistic you make your game the more again where I put my work on space and get three would I might want that other people might want it the like I described choose to leave work early the I have created designed on how published now I've been designing gains myself for like twenty years some people take eight hours to play I would advise you not to do that because your target audience as it small and most people don't want a game that big in that an excellent concept for game and that's as far as I go I have the concept of this game it's called English country garden every player he's trying to grow thing that happened to me in real life gave me an inspiration and I thought our there's a cool idea I'm going to turn that into a game reading and the the rules of the game and the mechanisms in the game actually made me feel that this is a this is a real situation where you know the decision can only get two would or I can stay late and get full what some people might want some people might want every every day you have to draw around even card republished as I mentioned I've had so many ideas for games in the past and I can talk through where the ideas came from and generally speaking they're all inspirations it happened all of these ideas about a game about gardening and how you have to maintain the garden and then I started thinking about how to shower here's the twist it's in the future nice okay whether control machine in the town flowers in their own garden on whoever's got the best garden at the end of the month or the year wins right now that sounds really boring and I'm going to plummet them but my strange purposes needed to be cold and wet for them to grow so I will I will bribe because some of the better world so you have to have to abstract the game and do you have any tips or advice for for game designers how to the guy who runs the weather control machine can be bribed with various objects so what's what's going to happen I'm going to buy some strange purple seeds and work forward but before that you need to decide what kind of game you WanNa make are you designing a cooperative game are you designing a competitive game or you can work for that game to be would there be a blind bidding system where in a particular phase of the game everybody more about designing games because a lot of the listeners of the show are a game design as I think we re tackle something here that that can be you kind of need to decide what you want in the in the game I and although I'm not technically designed my own games makes a blind bid to Derrick who works in the weather control machine building and whoever's got the highest bid you know but then again I hate blind bidding so would because you didn't bribe him as much as me so all of a sudden we've got this this cute idea for these gardening game set in a small English village but certainly in the future he designed one that has a particular victory condition or that has victory points do you play a trading in the game do you want player interaction in the game all of these things top down design yes because you start with a specific setting in mind wild with bottom ups design you would start with the mechanic or some kind of rule in mind no the guy who works on the weather control machine he likes Formula One so I'm going to buy him a subscription to a Formula One magazine in the hope that he will alter the weather a alien plum certain weather control machines and that's as far as I go I don't have any of the mechanics of the guy I have no mechanisms in the game at all an unusually as far as I get which is why publicized so for me it starts with you know the I have a concept so that's that's where a lot of my ideas came from is juiced inspiration from things that are happening we then wanted to turn into games yeah so interesting aspect is that both designed purchase can lead to incredible magic the gathering sets yes abrasion whether I'm out on a walk or I'm having shower do most of my best thinking in the shower a few years ago I was cutting the hedge in the back of our garden designed game that includes although blinding might be the best mechanism for that game that the thematically is the Roy Walton would I want to design again we've blind bidding when I hate I guess for me going back to the question is where would I go next with dot game is I would now start thinking what mechanisms would were gain mechanisms doesn't it well I like gardening I would probably would probably add a seasons here because the gardens look very different in different seasons yet as in Gothic horror theme or in the Gothic horror setting if we stick with your different Yep and this was completely designed mccown gang mechanisms next bull the setting came first because it was it was an idea okay that is let me throw them in top-down okay and cons of talk on the other side was designed with the idea of having three different Ed's one large one small one and then again a large one and aw Stefan has the mechanisms I I'm pretty sure he doesn't say I'm going to I'm going to try and design a game set in the city of Bruges the game is played unless you have particular things I want to I want to design a game about building underwater cities right okay there you go you designing design to make it cold and wet so that my plants do better now unfortunately you bowl plans that needed to be sunny and dry so your plans die okay and You would never play all this together Russell this was a new way of drafting the game but it was not medic at all but both it was overgrowing and it was an overgrowth way too much and I'm not really a big garden I was getting really fed up of the fight was growing all the time and suddenly and to be G G I am a game designer because I did the last two major expansions apart from I wouldn't actually say I'm a game designer there isn't a awesome why if I have a game oh yeah and then over a over a few day period I came up with what I think is about building a new world cities then where do you go from there do you start with the theme and work backwards or do you start with your mechanisms finding out of the game mechanism so yeah all of those things to think about but yeah I'd have probably started next if I was to continue with our game with the and there are some point in the process hey more the publisher goes right so we're going to have to apply a theme to this game and we're going to have to pick a setting for it without setting at all you can start without setting at all I mean going by Stephan felt as I mentioned earlier my favorite designers I'm pretty sure they they planted the afterward and the setting so it was the first that was and the last that was some kind of two different alternatives timeline protest created very very good magic that's for me the do you think it is important to start the design principle theme in mind or do you think it can be also possible to start -pletely changed the entire setting and artwork and it would be exactly the same game Might be a little bit unfair book you know you could you could redo typically I could say off got really cool idea again mechanic where I can account somewhere in the so there's a very nice for for the autumn season so this four seasons and you'll score points at the end of each season and who got the most points at the end of the will win the day you got right yeah Mark Rosewater Design of magic the gathering all distinguish between top down and bottom up design right yeah for me this what what you described is the Ninja Ninja sneaky so let's come up with some game mechanisms that fit the fact that the Ninjas sneaky right there we go we've got one alternative Burgundy to be castles of Burgundy space and it would be exactly the same game yeah what metric did with the cons of talk you with the three different sets but it it still is very concrete it fits it fits the mechanics quite well two completely different ways of doing it so we could be headaches in mind and put the theme or the setting on top of that so what would be your advice eight eight eight can be all of them I mean according oh two of my favorite sets in magic are instruct and cons of Turkey for example and in this is a game in which is a and this is specific thing about is is that the middle set the small one is easy late with the latch that the first or the second of the Cert lobster what few Collins of your deck and then when it comes out something bad happens to you right that's a really cool idea pool now we need some kind of oh well let's have that let's see maybe I think we could have different opinions on it look I say magic the gathering is a game I've had this discussion for a few years ago I remember the now so some of the fakes right let's let's start with flavor text I joining again we could be designing a magic the gathering together and we could say right we won't Ninjas Ninjas a cool right so we'll we'll put an injury in the game right because a lot of the flavor takes the magic the gathering is just about the law in the story whereas flavor text on the cards for example for an extremely cool mechanism in your game please try and find a thematic explanation for it don't don't just put it in the game and say this is really to fly on your journey all right that's the butterfly Trope non-drug yeah okay yes so if you can apply some kind of thing matic explanation to okay well let's have this and they put it on because to be fair old of I although I love these games you could pretty much tell you nine thousand nine percents of the game the old game mechanism then then please do because it makes the game more enjoyable for me to play sold about me as I have one question to you without the Ninja in both ways will lead to a card called the Ninja that does a certain thing both ways completely valid so he's just yeah that's right one in the present and one in the both were in the present and the small set in between was happening in the past and some big changes happened and you get your cleansing blow three damage right where was the flavor takes on the magic the gathering cards is generally just quotes about the setting why it is the matic boots any any card game which has a deck of cards holster you'll magnifying glasses in your pocket suddenly you've got to wait for the calls to come out now the game which came out with wasn't actually that big or popular still going and he's still quite good and he faked that problem for me with all Combat Julian Card Games really don't think that putting flavor tags on a card makes it the magic game but it tastes doesn't it I think it helps I think gathering is interesting told the sturt that had an alternative timeline yeah I like this kind of of setting but it was definitely planted outwards and there could be another setting wasn't suddenly adopted by dozens of the Games for those people listening who don't know what made was is it is a wizards summoning creatures fighting each of the I have issues with their mind Arkham horror the card game he's one of my favorite games of all time thoughts you build your deck at the start of the game and you put your from what I remember I played for like twenty years yes it is most of the time it's just about the about the story yeah I think that that I don't and you can choose what college you want to cast from your spell book whenever you want to catch them it's amazing and since playmate was I'd gone off Ashby describing what's happening itself so the the flavor tastes on some cards designed describing you play a card and it says you slash dragon with Your Sword Academy which I much prefer shorter in a bit lighter I am really surprised the majors came out the spell book mechanic of majors whether the game itself is the matic well I mean you'll you'll wizards and you're summoning creatures that then go off and fight for you an attack your opponent so in that really cool mechanism he he's how the rules would because everybody's going for a cool book what's what's actually representing an most people to be I started to try and redesign net rona to us exactly the same mechanism because it's it's more dramatic it's very realistic. If I see that you've summoned you know the advice I can give them that both methods work that's been proved a number of times on its whatever searching I would say if you've got an idea where you know the I don't think he does I think he stalls with mechanisms and go Roy I'm going to have a card game there's going to be caused that do this and do and that is major wars but if play I have it I would have mentioned it in my response to your right now major roles and made what's making the game anymore thematic I think what it's doing is it's providing an extra bitter flavor for the people who who want not as for perspective for me is more medic because okay if you look at the individual carts they are great though if you look at some creatures for example the big giant creature will something I'll go oh my God this big giant creature I've I got to deal with our oh I can create an entangled trump right I don't have to wait why well you just you just do you know that's genucel don't ask you whereas if somebody says Oh well I'm purple represents the FI that you've children on three over to transform it into something else in this case into a mist and missed it is very hard or uncurable because the other creatures can you have a you have a creature there which is a vampire and There was a mechanic you can how you can transform that Kurt so and you have to flip that card and things like that it's the spell book mechanic he's fantastic yes gas well it's great and that's one more thing in the game which I think is also they behave exactly in the game from a mechanical point of view like I would expect these creatures to behave in a fictional reality uh-huh or your equipment or your magnifying Senate and then you have to wait for it to come out well it's not realistic is it you're you're an investigator you've got into a house you'll goonies down designed for a single card and this card is called form of the Dragon so for this card I think someone without had the idea that I'm away more dramatic than men but only from the mid perspective if I have the feeling I have the feeling that I'm real major but in magic the Mike become a Werewolf yeah this is nice and for example if you play some kind of full moon effect then the cart flips immediately or food from my leg or have the look factor of did I have that card when I needed certainly you the foible lot me an eye opener shield yeah I think Matt in Magic I never felt like like planes walker fighting fighting on other planes walker so from amid a perspective I think materals is helping that it feels more than magic and that's that your character is streep's represented on your yeah so that Magic Schroeck for example let's go back to the set that I mentioned industry for example which is about the gothic horror theme there you have gotten exactly the same premise as much at the gathering however you spell book you don't have a deck of cards your deck of cards is actually you'll spell book it better than Mitchell's on the micro perspective okay one more card would you like to mention because it is just a great implementation of how to do a top it's a card that is a very difficult name Crisci Deco Phobia the fear of the number thirteen right yes stew do have they fly so the card also makes you only tangible by flying creatures Ryan's and sold this this if you were euro gamer represents just need some wouldn't usually some oh so wherever you go to that location over that you move this purple disc one he's the all of the spells in the game and all of the creatures in the game like you were saying with the vampire when you read it it's a game mechanic and he's put it so this is very symmetric from your and the same was where wolves for example you have a human on one side and send them trigger needs to happen and you flip the card there's a small thematic aspects of the carts in magic that makes the game very theme for me even if it doesn't have the middle of of yeah I mean you know I played hundreds of games drag to breath fire so at the beginning of each turn the if you have this contemplates five damage to creature or plan the APP and what else want to make a card that turns the player into Trading Rojo can we do this I think this must have been the idea to create this card and then somebody thought okay makes you play it I would enjoy not gain more because you can you can imagine those those those things happen the Iowa's image this bells no I was I played college it was a six four card you know things like that whereas and the cat said that you lose the game when you have thirteen life well that's right I can't beat anti medic and there there's a point where I think magic is considering our was all I did for two years I had I didn't do anything else with play Marchetti gathering no point during any of those games did I ever feel and I've also been playing the law of the Pathfinder Adventure Card game recently which is very very bummed extremely random one thing that I love about her you know I as I say I lost twenty years ago so the sets of probably the environments probably telling you to go all the card games that I play ashes I think he's a fantastic every single line of takes you read which is again mechanism in the Pathfinder game you can associate that with the actual card effect it says one you draw this card choose one run to my time from your day and put it under this card Oh yeah because he's at the finish stolen something right okay and then when you do this and then he they have spent quite specific cards also have quite specific roles in a scenario and one quest for example is about rescuing the mother of one character and only react to her child this really helps to ed the narrative aspect of the game through mechanics to and these cards allow players to perform quests specific actions usually by performing skill checks and these actions usually have a significant impact three heroes and in Aventura you only control one character which already Mike might make a big difference when it comes to only the player whose mother this is able to allow to perform certain actions to rescue the mother because she's somehow cursed on the game and the story so I give you an example players can for example dip their weapon into a consecrated water to feel as a few more immersed with the character you're playing and I love that and I really miss that in a lot of other card games so that is and in the game it is then randomly chosen whose mother it is which doesn't make a lot of difference in the game but at one point in time in the game offend people can follow it and we are talking about card games at the moment I have another example of a good example for to card games that implemented more or less the same thing in two different ways one of it being dramatic from my point of view and the others other not at all so the Games I'm talking about I'm Steve They succeed to to get the bonus at the end both implementations aren't two different you always have to skill check or compared l. use right another example of of interior would be that how they implemented theme by Egging Quest Specific Roles you from your point of view when you start reading those keywords and keywords and you go okay so what does this keyword being immersed with the game but that's not the thing I want to talk about the real difference here comes from the non combat actions that your characters can perform we'll police lower you increase the threat level so there is nothing nothing medicare for me now it's just it's just a good example of what I think could be done by other game designers that you add quite specific actions and quest specific roles and I think it's also very good implemented in in Arkham horror the card game which you already mentioned as one of your favorite the APP the Games so why would you say Comoros demoted to perform better texts against the demon boss this specific card and on the card the extras written and can take action all of the things seem to fit together thematically I like it as well and Mike Selling for the designer already been a guest on this show as well and we been with readiness and I will be picking up the series of gain in I think November great to link them in the show notes as well yeah rule I do feel the oldest this stuff that happens within the game is quite matic now I mentioned there are there are some problems I that's okay steamatic from you that's fine yeah but then you have to compare willpower of the euro to the end counterpart that's it if you hire you make some progress. He recalled the very nice session about that Lincoln in the show notes for everyone who is interested and I've done four playthrough videos so far some of them in so low some of them have we Monday I'm doing I'm doing the last Chapter I hope to get it online on on Tuesday okay so tomorrow I will be doing I mean this is massive right the the enemies massive let's look at what this keyboard means Massif right it's considered to be engaged with all people at your location we are a lot of the ring the living card game and Aben Turia the card game okay I've played one of those okay in lot of the rings you control comparing numbers Yeah Yeah so tu values compare and then let's have a look of interior instead of interior each quest comes with different hero action cards the decision it's the setting the environment is just everything about it on I'm doing a livestream Wednesday so I don't know when this podcast is due to go out stories that go on so you have on one side you have the the story that you want to push forward as a player and on the other side you have the ed thought that makes sense never engaged with anybody yet that makes sense and the rule of our accidentally hitting somebody else if it's attacking under the right current act says once you have eight clues advance so you know the okay so these clues represent who's searching as well it's it's very symmetric and I love the setting and you really got immersed with the game because I really liked that it has two different it calls in your deck and eventually they will pop up in the middle of a scenario where we oh I was I was hiding behind the did you see me and he's like you know it's a bit weird and I mean I the reason I love the game he's not just because of the thematic it's the narrative element is the story it doesn't apply because it's mass yeah okay just don't make sense so when you're playing the game although there is the draw the token the bike to see what happens on the random card it really feels and immersive for me and some of the Times it's the same with almost all of these card games no way we telling the the the next the next livestream of our Arkham horror campaign so now you put some pressure on the editing the show yeah I love gender the gender that is put forward by the by the eye of the game by the and I love how this works together and looking around for clues and stuff like that this absolutely most definitely only does it help me explain well it helped me explain because it helps people understand so it makes my job easier eh in the you know you should go in carrying you'll go on and on you call them you know you've got to wait for defined in your deck and things like that and you'll realize unless there is a quest face every turn and players have to commit the heroes to request and you have to them and they can't attack a block while they're on the so terrible reputation for being oh my God this excuse me throw just right door has gone missing you can't find the door suddenly disappeared it's very very strange there are eight clues on your location in a four player game and you know and you put fatigue on the bar and your little red heart and you pull Brownie points with Gold Smiley face on the yellow truck or something like that because you can kind of work out what it represents is usually fairly obvious from a from a from your perspective you have explained a lot of different games flip the car over and that's it you know in in none of these games do the actually write down intakes what this represents but that's fine you want that mechanism means so for example in the very first scenario of all come horror you are in your study there's no way out the because they're thematic so if you're moving through a forest that ninety five moving points during the day it costs three well it makes sense if you've ever tried moving through a forest it's not easy right if there's an enemy in the Cape and you go on the heck's adjacent to the keep and he's daytime you can see the enemy down trees in the forest but then I go home and get Brownie points with the wife because I've come home early dot makes sense in the game what you're saying is to lot of people would you say it helps when a game is the mechanics of a game are thematic explain the rules to yet for people to learn easier for people to remember and again going back to my example late earlier on I can only work half a day explain what that is and stray away people going Oh yeah I can go home early and watch TV or I can stay and I'll be tired the next day yeah to that we talked about a few of them maybe you didn't like randomness when it comes to to create the Games what does about dancing like victory points maybe one follow up question here is are there some kind of mechanics or that really counterproductive to a green cubes and move your counter space upon here all take three green cues or take four green caves but move your red market down one space that's at the medicine is all about to help people imagine