4 Episode results for "Empire Lake"
The Ottoman Empires Influence on the Present Day
"This episode is brought to you by the House of Chanel for Gabrielle Chanel reading was a refuge which allowed her to invent her own destiny. Right from childhood literature became a passion she shared with the love of her life boy Capelle and her friends like Cocteau Colette Peer Review Eddie, and Max Jacob. She, hoped the also she'd mind without them knowing she read for inspiration and then became an inspiration herself. Watch the Film Gabrielle Chanel and literature at inside Chanel Dot Com. How did the Ottoman Empire shaped the? Modern. World. Historian Allen Mikhail will be here to talk about his new book God's Shadow. What really goes on in the supermarket. Benjamin, Laura will join us to discuss the secret life of groceries. Alexander Alter. We'll have an update from the publishing world. Plus our critics will join us for the latest literary criticism. This is the poker view podcast for the New York. Times. It's October sixteenth. I'm Pamela. Aw. Alley Mikhail joins us. Now he is in New York City and he is the author most recently of God's shadow Sultan. So Liam has automated empire and the making of the Modern World Allen thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. This book is about the Ottoman Empire which I think for many Americans. Certainly Young Americans. It's sort of encountered in the history textbook. In its waning years World War One it's sort of the dying empire that you know is obliterated at the end of World War One along with the austro-hungarian empire. But what was the Ottoman Empire Lake at peak? Height of its power the Ottoman Empire ruled three continents, Europe Asia and Africa some thirty three countries today have an Ottoman history. It was an empire mainly of three religions Islam the religion of the ruling elite of the empire and not the height of its power, the majority of the population but also Christianity and Judaism it was a multi linguistic empire. The languages of the Balkans of the Middle East and parts of Africa, as well, and it was one of the world's great powers of the early modern period. When you talk about the early modern period, what years do you mean specifically roughly we're talking about fifteen, hundred, eighteen, hundred. Okay and the subject of this book is really looking mostly at the sixteenth century, right the fifteenth and the Sixteenth Century. That's correct Salim the protagonist of the Book Lifts From Fourteen Seventy Fifteen twenty tell us about Sultan Salim also known I I love this as Salim the grim and as God shadow on earth and I'm assuming the title of Your Book Correct Correct Salim is the father of perhaps the most famous Soltan Souleymane the magnificent. She was the Ninth Soltan of the Ottoman Empire she was born as also tons were to a concubine mother than at the time a autumn Prince who would become the Soltan later on in Selena's life he was born in the city of a mafia, which is in Anatolia Modern Day Turkey. And he was the four, th of his father's ten sons and not favored to succeed his father to the throne and much of the story of his life is how he outmaneuvered is older and more favored brothers to eventually become the Soltan which he becomes in fifteen twelve. And, he rules only for eight years a very short period of time. But in those eight years, he expands the Ottoman Empire more than any other Soltan in six hundred year history of the empire. Key makes the empire for the first time in history a majority Muslim empire. He is the Soltan who gives it the shape that will have until World War One why isn't it ham wise it Suliman who is the better known Sultan Sulaiman is very important sold time I don't want to take anything away from him. He rules longer than any other Soltan it's under his reign that the empire achieves the kind of height of the arts where it's at its most involved in your affairs. It is during Sulaiman's reign that we have an enormous corpus of source material of correspondence between the Ottoman Empire, embarrass European Towers, and those were some of the earliest sources that European historians used to tell the story of the Ottoman Empire, and therefore they gave a lot of attention to Salim on one of the things that I argue in the book though is that it's because of. This enormous expansion during Selena's rain that's only able to achieve everything that he does during his rick. How much territory did Salim Conquer when he takes the throne, the empire is an empire, basically of the Balkans, and the western half of Anatolia. So if you think of Modern Day Turkey today in the middle of Turkey over to the GNC Salim adds to the eastern half of Anatolia. So all of modern, day Turkey what we conventionally think of as the Middle East today. So the Levant, Syria, Lebanon Israel, Palestine Jordan parts of Iraq down into Saudi Arabia, Modern Day Saudi Arabia, and then over in North Africa all the way to modern day. So from Egypt over to Algeria. So it solidifies the autumns as the dominant power in the eastern Mediterranean after this defeat of the Mamluk Empire, which is the Empire that held all this territory before the Ottoman control basically the Mediterranean coast from Algeria following all the way around of events. The guiding principle of his territorial expansion was this economic? Was it about spreading Islam was it just power? I really think it was about his ambition and his desire for territorial conquest to be the major power in the region. When Salim is younger, he is the governor of a city in eastern Anatolia on the Black Sea and it's there that he really is introduced to some of the enemies that he will come to fight later in his life. So I, really do think it's about his own personal ambition for expansion and power aren't to tell us a little bit about who he was and why was he salim the grim the sources that we have of Selena's life are you know the bureaucratic sources that he promulgated orders and appointments and those kinds of things we have some of his poetry? And we have some correspondence that he undertook, and then we have people who are observing his life. So from that, we come to see that he again was someone who turned the disadvantages of his life being unfavored son into an advantage. He thought that the empires should be militarily aggressive and not defensive. He struck out against enemies on the eastern border of the empire when he was governor of the city on the Black Sea, he was maniacally focused on getting to the throne so that meant that. He bucked many trends. One was the trend of non favored sons becoming sultans. Another was that he himself as best we know there some historical debate about this had only one set himself souleymane to save his one son, the succession crisis and battle that would dominate so much of Salem's life and he was known as the grim because he was quite violent as both the governor and eventually as Soltan and I WANNA be careful here not to ascribe any more violence to a Muslim leader than any other. Leader in this period was very bloody period in world history the inquisition is going on at this moment. European, powers are executing people in public squares in these kinds of things. So Salim is very much a piece of this world. He kills eventually his half brothers is rivals for the throne. He also deposes his father, which was a very unique thing in Ottoman history usually succession occurred once Soltan died or was physically incapacitated for some reason, and he forcibly deposes his father. So this idea that he's the. Grim is one that comes out later in the later writings of Ottoman. Estonians to describe this period in which it was thought, we don't want a system whereby sons are deposing their fathers left and right we won't succession to occur in a very ordered and deliberate fashion whereby it only happens when a Soltan has died or is otherwise as I said incapacitated, and so that moniker is given to him in the later writings of Ottoman historians, and as you point out, this was a time of the inquisition. Yet, Salim, you say foster diversity and encouraged toleration of the Jews and other minorities was this a major departure from earlier sultans and was it an anomaly presumably at the time? It is not that is one of the striking things in thinking about the Ottomans in comparative perspective. So the expansion that Salim Achieves during his lifetime. The. Empire for the first time in its history, a majority Muslim empire. The majority of the subjects of the empire are now Muslims up to that point. The majority of the people living in the Ottoman Empire were Orthodox Christians of one kind or another. So. This is two hundred and twenty years of Ottoman rule the ruling elite of the empire limbs but the subject population are Christians. So tune in twenty years is a very long time that's almost as long as the United States has been in existence. So the Ottomans were very good at fostering communal autonomy giving the Orthodox Christian communities of the empire autonomy over things like marriages and divorces some property relations. Dealing with their own affairs, not imposing Islam in any kind of violent way on the subject population, there's also a large Jewish population already presence in the empire which will only increase after fourteen, ninety two and the expulsion of the Jews from staying many of those Jews eventually end up in the Ottoman Empire and after fourteen ninety two, the largest Jewish city in the world is in the Ottoman Empire Salonika vessel. In today's Greece. So unlike Spain for example, the Ottomans never attempted to forcibly convert their non Muslim populations or to expel them from the Ottoman Empire I don't want to overly romanticize confessional relations. There were plenty of Anti Jewish instances violence in the Ottoman Empire and anti Christian as well. But it is the case that in comparison to powers in Europe that the Ottoman empire fostered a of ecumenical polity whereby non-muslim communities were able to to do quite well underneath Ottoman rule and I'll just say here. That Salim is is also known as the grim because he undertakes one of the largest domestic massacres in Ottoman history up until the end of the nineteenth century, and that is against other Muslims in the empire specifically Shiites. So one of the major wars that he undertakes during his reign is against the Safavid Empire in what is today, Iran? And they are an empire that ties their rule to she is. So he very much sees because of this alphabet enemy she ism as an enemy to his own power in the Ottoman world, and so during this war against Shiites be Ron massacre some forty thousand, his own Shiite subjects. This tolerance on the part of Salim and his Ottoman empire was was not reciprocated in large part by you're afraid I mean this was the time of the inquisition how largely did the Islamic World Neum in the minds of Europeans at this time? Hugely, and that's a very important part of the story of Selene and his age because he expands the empire so much nearly tripling the size of the empire. There is this sense in European capitals of an encroaching threatening Islam coming from the East we might argue that that was a long standing obsession of European Christians, but in insulin's age that really ramps up. So for example, someone like Columbus and I spend a good deal of time in the book speaking about Columbus Columbus born in fourteen, fifty one. So a couple of years before Celine's grandfather matinee conqueror conquers constantinople at the time. One of the Pope's describes this as plucking out one of the eyes of Christendom, the eastern capital. Of Christendom and so for someone like Columbus, he's raised in this world in which Islam is threatening force that has to be dealt with in some kind of extreme way. This is redoubled for him when he starts sailing around the Mediterranean and his first forays outside of the Mediterranean, he sales to North Africa, he sales to an island in the Aegean he sales down the west coast of Africa and everywhere he goes he sees that Islamist presence and that at that Christendom seems to be in the retreats and his presence at the Conquest of Granada in fourteen ninety two that other major event that happened in fourteen, ninety two whereby Isabella and Ferdinand conquer the last Muslim kingdom in. Iberia. Uniting. Iberia under Catholic rule. And this for Columbus, is a piece of what will come to be the Atlantic voyages. He thinks of the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, the conquest of Granada and sailing west to try to find a route to India as all pieces of this kind of global march of Catholicism around the world. So we often say that Columbus was looking for an alternative route to Asia but why was he looking for an alternate routes? Asia, that is because of Muslim power in the eastern half of the Mediterranean. and. You're lucky. Bright right whether politicians, pundits and traditional historians not the world we inhabit is very much an Ottoman one. What do you mean by that? I mean that if we look at major world changing events of this period that have resonances down to the present. So Columbus the Protestant reformation, the rise of commercial relations that the Ottomans have a hand in all of these things. So it's not as though Columbus didn't cross the Atlantic of course he did or that Martin Luther didn't lead a prospect reformation of course, he did. But there are Ottoman and Muslim elements to those stories that we have ignored or not paid attention to and. So a lot of the work of my book is reinserting Flom and the Ottoman Empire into those stories to give us a fuller and I would say more empirically true story about all of these events that we think has something to tell us about the making of the modern world how and when did the sultan die I mean you'd mentioned that he only ruled for eight years and to the next Sultan Sulaiman carry on his legacy or did he then undo things or make changes? Salim Dies in fifteen twenty. Interestingly. He had fled Istanbul because of the plague outbreak much like many of us have done he fled the city to get away from a pandemic and historians argue over whether he died from plague or some other disease but he died due to an illness that his doctors couldn't treat Eddie died at the age of fifty as I said he he only had one son. So on succession to the throne was very. Easy and so they in many ways does carry on the legacy of his father. He continues to gain some territory for the empire a little bit in Hungary a little bit in Iraq. But he really consolidates the territorial expansion that Salim achieved during his reign. You mentioned in kind of fro a line that Salim Roco of course this is a books podcast so we can't ignore dot tidbit was his poetry. Any good. Poetry to my year, and I is not very good. It's mostly about his conquest talking about what a great leader he is and all the territory that he conquered. It's certainly not the height of autumn poetry. One final question for you you an addition to writing this book. You are a professor of history at Yale where you share the Department of history what's at Lake right now teaching history at Yale University and charing department presumably. You're not all back in class. That's right we're teaching almost exclusively over zoom. These days are classes are attending to be smaller this semester, which is not such a bad thing. But of course, you know there's the oddity of doing it over the screen we live in a time in which the president of the United States has has gone after the teaching of history in both secondary post secondary education. That's something that many of my colleagues have very strong feelings about and I think this is a moment where history has to be taught and we have to stress the importance of thinking about the complexity and what some might term the. Negativity of history as an integral part of the study of our past there many things that we might not want to have to think about any kind of serious way. But I think it's absolutely obviously important that we deal with the history of this country in the history of the world in all of its complexity and nuance I couldn't agree more. Your students are are lucky to have you even if only over Zoom Allan thank you so much again for being here. Thank you very much, Allen McCall's new book is called God's Shadow Sultan, Salim, his Ottoman Empire, and the making of the modern world. and. Benjamin Laura joins us. Now from Brooklyn his new book is called the secret life of groceries the dark miracle of the American supermarket. Ben Thanks so much for being here. Thanks so much for having me. This is actually weirdly well-timed book right? Because everyone is obsessed with the supermarket right now during quarantine we're all scared to go there. We must go there. We are all cooking, all of our food you planned all this yeah. Yeah. This was like my dark nightmare I've been obsessed for years, but I do think the pandemic provided kind of perfect ramp for everyone else to kind of realize that this banal institution in our lives was actually vitally important and that understanding it was something that would be really interesting in reality Ben. You've spent five years researching this crepe not knowing there would be a pandemic what got you interested in supermarkets and and what took five years Well, there was a kind of a light bulb moment that stemmed right off my last book. So my first book explore the Bickham Yoga World. In this obsessive group of yogis turned out that the guru was Kinda Meglomaniac narcissists also that turned oddly relevant after the book came out but I was at a teacher training there and there were a group of Yogis who had been kind of trapped at this teacher training with. For a long time and they let them out to go supermarket shopping and they all descended on this trader Joe's in the area with a maniacal glee. That I just hadn't seen in adults it was like going to the amusement park with a busload of kids only it was a supermarket and it was. And I just thought Oh there's this odd parallel between this book that I'm researching now on obsessive Yoga and this kind of call and the cult of food that has kind of grown up around me and the way that we place meaning on food in an interesting way. So where does you go from there sort of noticing this this cult like Terry Jews thing going on well. I will say that was a light bulb moment that I wanted to write about it. But for a long time, I've been fascinated by supermarkets I'm the person will go to a supermarket on vacation and just browse around I. Think there's almost a hallucinogenic quality with these saturated bright colors and the fact that you walk down the aisles and to me it's both soothing and comforting all this choice in abundance like neural land but also there's a power that radiates out of them and it's almost threatening so I had long been drawn to the supermarket and I wanted. To. Scratch the surface. So I started by just interviewing as many people as I could from just people I knew who had worked in there and just kinda working up the ladder of talking to someone them who I should talk to because it's such a sprawling industry. Well, you're you're speaking to the right interviewer here because I too am obsessed with supermarkets and always go to the supermarket at least one supermarket. When I travel one place I know that you did go to travel as Thailand where in the supermarket there's always a full I'll dedicated to baby powder you. Which I it says a lot because they do wear a lot of baby powder in Thailand and they're they're many different kinds. You also went to Thailand, as part of your research what brought you there. So I was interested in exploring the bottom of the commodity chain and Thailand is one of our most integrated prominent partners in terms of seafood, and it was really important to go and get the physical experience because so much about trade is misleading when it's on the level of kind of physical reports, annual reports and charts. I had this image of the supply chain in my head kind of mimicked one of those flowcharts and was nice and clean but on the ground when you're dealing with the volume of commodity that. It takes to run a grocery store, which is premised on the notion of continuously available abundance. Right the supermarket manager is phobic of this idea that there will be a stock out that there will be a shelf that doesn't have the item that has been promised. So quarantine is not made them. Happy. You know it's like it is truly a nightmare for them, but it also exposes somewhat the extent of the customer doesn't care that much about this, but it create that abundance requires such volume and to go back to Thailand. Is, something that is not captured will by these companies themselves importers in the. In the manufacturers that rely on the bottom of the commodity chain, the supply chain itself is so big that it's it's less like. Clear lines and more like a thick of different interlaced inter hatching things that produces places that unless you really go like with a reporters is to study it's hard to get to the bottom of manufacturers. Don't often know where product is coming. They use aggregate to get to the true smallholder fighting your way through that thicket with something that I thought was really important and what did you find when you? Were in Thailand about the food chain that you maybe didn't expect. I was there focused on traffic labor and I think at the bottom of the supply chain I found just truly horrific abuses that I think the fact that they exist in twenty twenty would surprise almost everyone from people who were literally bought out of prison and kept at work on a fishing boat for years at a time against their. Will beaten when they didn't work. There was really no other word in my mind than slave to describe them, and then what was I think unexpected about this portrait was that how active these people were as agents in their survive on how little their predicament involve them being tricked into something terrible. But the way that global inequity works and their struggle for a better life often lead them into these positions. With is not exactly open but with far more human agency than I think comes across in some of the NGO reports that I had read ahead of time can you connect the dots between those fishermen in Thailand and say the seafood display of whole foods which is where you actually start your book yeah and I do some time working edifice counter at whole foods a fran retail you are undercover, right? And in general as a writer I try to get as close to my subjects as possible I want as much first person experience, and so you know for the victim book I, ended up doing gobs of Bickham Yoga, and for this book I thought if I'm writing about the grocery store, I have to get on the grocery floor and do some work with customers. You can put the weight back on that you took off doing hot yoga. Precisely. Although the fish counters. So you know this is relatively healthy mother. You couldn't afford that fish on the salary where we're making for. Sure. To connect the dots from Thailand to the retail counter. I think one of the big messages the book is at that's really hard and even people within these companies who work in quality control and do this for living can have trouble with that line there often isn't a clear line of visibility with complex supply chains like Thais Shrimp, which is where I really honed in on because. The boats. Were these men were imprisoned were collecting what's known as trash fish as part of their job they were out fishing for other fishes well, but trash Fisher small fish that would usually get pushed right off the boat. But because we have this burgeoning aquaculture sector that is raising carnivorous fish and shrimp, it relies on actual protein so that trash fish then gets turned into fish meal that fishmeal gets turned into shrimp food, which is itself a discrete property than that gets used to raise baby shrimp, which then go through several stages of production and are swapped around the country as. They grow from tanks to ponds, and in those are taken to processing plants which exist in a variety of different structures for final processing and then to exporters importers at some point in that last phase, a label get slapped on them and they get the country of origin label and they get perhaps a brand label but that's very late, and at that point, they head to the retail counter all the sounds sort of okay. was there anything incredibly unappetizing disturbing about this process I mean are you still eating shrimp it? All sounds sort of okay. If you one can put the. Enslaved fishermen at the bottom of the chain out of sight out of mind, which is something that I think the entire system is geared to get used to do and all those different layers of production help at. But I think another big takeaway from the book is just how efficient. This is an the shrimp in the fish that we were selling is perfectly hygienic moreover, although a lot of people have read the book and have come to the conclusion while now I need to add shrimp to. Another thing that a good middle-class person should not eat I gotta add it to the list along with like slave grown tomatoes. That's really not the takeaway I intended from the Book I. Think I intended to show just how horrific these conditions were on the bottom of the supply chain, but also how intractable they were and how reliant they were on certain structures that need to be changed in those structures are big ones from trade treaties to really global poverty inequity that is driving the migration that drives these men's trap live so. There are no wicker easy solutions there and. The can seem okay only in the way that it can also seem helpless at the same time maybe a learned helplessness. So another tale of the dark side of globalisation. Yeah. I think the ability to outsource this certainly helps that although another major section of the book I visited with truckers, which as recently as the nineteen seventies was middle-class job, you know smoking bannet Ruffy unlovable but had been in very close parallel to what was happening in Thailand reduced to a job that a lot of the truckers I was with jobs share cropping on wheels I. Don't think it was an overstatement they were trapped in a system of debt. Where they were grinding out poverty level wages for working seventy hours a week, and we're not free to leave because they had taken out loans on a truck and we're beholden to the trucking fleet that had leased it to. How closely connected to those kind of worker policies are the supermarket chains themselves I. Mean we started talking about trader Joe's which positions itself as a kind of good company. Whole Foods of course is owned by Amazon which does not allow for unions at least in the warehouses I don't know if if there are are unions in the whole food stores. What's the Labor? Policy. Like at these stores at the major chains in terms of how they treat their own workers, it can vary and there are certainly chains that have good labor policies. I think there has been a rise in certainly when I was working at whole foods. We felt this effect although these policies weren't at whole foods proper. They kind of defined the labor market in terms of treating. Employees as more on demand. So you know back in high school when I had minimum wage job, but you'd still get the schedule a few weeks ahead of time. So you can kind of plan your life or maybe get another part time job that's no longer the case and you're getting your schedule three days ahead of time that our that you're working are being shifted based on big data. Algorithms that are predicting customer demand, and so the hours you're working could vary by up to forty percent week to week, which, of course, means your take home pay various forty percent week to week that type of quote justice time scheduling is certainly extremely problem at but to the larger question of like connecting grocery stores to the plight of the trucker I was talking about war tic-. Food traffic laborer. That gets really tough because these chains are not designed for that type of supply chain overhaul the you know I talked to NGOs who specialize in that sector and admitted openly that they just barely were understanding how you reform complicated supply chain and I think as consumers there is this notion that we can vote with our dollars and make change with money and you. Know I think unfortunately, one of the takeaways I had is there is no great conduit for doing that through the supermarket and that's a bit of a foodie fantasy and very self serving one when you start to think about it oh, I, can buy something for myself and make the world better. It turns out that that's not totally the case or at the very. least, supermarkets are not the way to do that Internet not well equipped to do that. We'll full disclosure as I. Think I've talked about on this podcast before I worked in a supermarket when I was in college and it was one of my favorite jobs ever as a cashier they loved working at the cash register. So it's it's distressing to me to hear about. That the just in time policies, how prevalent are those and does that mean that working the cashier is no longer a viable after school job for teenagers for example, just in time in nomenclature is changing because it's kind of gotten a bad reputation and people realize but the practices that underpin it are very prevalent because these are low wage jobs at whole foods where nobody. Just in time what did not happen in name or company practice, but we were always told that we were team players and had to be team players and we had to play for the whole foods team, and there was this subtle notion that if we weren't playing for the whole foods team, like we might have to be asked to play for someone else and sometimes they would ask us to to do do these just-in-time things we should just do it. So there's a soft coercion and I do think. The. Dea that the job that you were working in highschool is not the job that's available. Anymore there's a nostalgia it's not helpful I talked to a seafood supply chain expert who said something about she was like the big problem is when you go to the store and you pick up a a tuna. Just like the canned tuna that your parents your grandparents were buying but the the way it's produced is completely different now and I think that's true for these minimum wage jobs where it's easy to say like why did that but but that's not what's happening anymore and moreover it's not just high school kids who are working these jobs. These are now fulltime forms of employment for adults I mean with a lot of these companies that rely on minimum wage workers the prophets are often pretty Sweet I mean how much money do supermarkets me? You would think that for Amazon to make the decision to go into this, it would have to be a pretty high margin market. Well, they make a tremendous amount of money is seven, hundred, billion dollars a year industry, and it is such an institution in our lives. We spend two percent of our lives in grocery stores that it also is a great platform for launching other things which would obviously make very attractive for someone like Amazon. In terms of margin, however, it's a very low margin industry. It's just premised on volume, and that's kind of the great genius of the supermarket that we're going to sell at such volume. We can reduce prices down to create kind of a buying frenzy where people put more into their cartoon they intend because it's just low priced food. So margins tend to go from one point five to three point, five percent, which is razor thin of course, and it's something that I get into in the book supermarkets find other ways of juicing their bottom line and the modern supermarket operates much more like a landlord leasing space out something called slotting fees where they. Will Sell Shelf space to poor and I'm not talking about end caps at the end of the aisles where you think we all know that those are probably soult because they're very visible but shelf space anywhere in the store, and that just goes right to the bottom line and it's not included margin. You did a lot of research for this book including and we haven't talked about this. You took a USDA class which I mean I didn't even know that you could take a class with the USDA what did you learn about supermarkets that most surprise you I mean I just have to ask that question because there's so many interesting factoid in this book. I learned too much to figure out what my most surprising fact is. Now I mean I could give you the line give everybody the book was just so sprawling. was blown away by trucking like I think I've driven on those highways next to truckers all the time I had no idea. The job requires that much vigilance. I'd no idea. It was so dangerous more deaths than any other profession are in trucking and yet at the same time, I had no idea about the the debt. And the did a lot of these truckers are grinding it out. That was shocking. I spent time with Joe Gloom who founded trader Joe's and I think the other really surprising thing was just how. Connected, grocery branding was to my identity. How much? The store is acting to serve the consumer and so however much we might scorn this giant system. It's working on our behalf kind of bending on both knees down to serve us, and that was something that I didn't go in with. The dominant Foodie narrative is like these big greedy corporate places serving plastic food and that there's truth to that. But it wasn't in the grocery industry. This was full of people who had good intentions who are trying to serve consumers and consumers were asking totally contradictory chaotic things making that service extremely difficult than ending in dark places that we discussed in Thailand. You talked about the fact that the just in time scheduling is if not entirely going away certainly under under scrutiny are there other major trends in the supermarket industry that you think are going to really shape the direction of Our Future Grocery store on the? Corner. The pandemic is accelerating a giant push into online spaces, and so I think that that trend is going to continue and it's going to shift what the physical store looks like. Will we need giant two hundred, thousand square foot costco like space to get things I'm not sure about that. I think we're GONNA see a lot of smaller format stores start selling at the things that the online world doesn't do well at like small interesting specialty goods, voyage of discovery type stores, seeing little stores that you already kind of see for boutique easy things but can look your best friends most clever friends pantry. Like. I think those type of stores are GonNa Start. Popping up at the same time as we see this shift to buying a lot of our staples through more routine online purchases because the pandemic has kind of cemented that for a lot of people. One last question a personal question but you brought it up. You said that you know your local market like your market of choice ends up kind of shaping you and serving you what's your local supermarket or your supermarket of choice Ben and what does it say about you? Oh, my God it it says terrible things about the. Didn't know. It knows that I'm lazy that I go for convenience that despite the fact at is why I hope this book never comes off as preachy because I I really am very comfortable with human flaws but I go to the supermarket that's closest to me. It happens to be a union market. It's pretty boozy. They play Herbie Hancock in the aisles because they know that that's the type of music that I bought my head to and will make me linger a little longer. They have insane assortment of Mushrooms and Chili peppers which I think is fantastic but it's also one of those choices that they've made because that's the type of thing that I value will then. The fact that they are way up charging me on. Any type of branded content that I would get there. You know the cereal is atrociously expensive but I walk in because they have this Herbie Hancock in this great display mushrooms in its rural close and those are the values that I represent when I'm shopping and they big consequences for the world. Lena weapon that Mushroom Chili Pepper supermarket actually sounds pretty good to me. So I think if nothing to be ashamed of. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for having me. Benjamin Moore is the author of the secret life of groceries the dark miracle of the American supermarket. Alexander altered joins us now with some news of the publishing world. Hey Alexandra. Hey? What's going on this week? So we're getting a clearer picture of how the publishing industry has withstood the pandemic shutdown, and as we've discussed before some of the news is very encouraging. So the Association of American publishers released their latest numbers that show book sales through August and compare them to the previous year, and they noted that trade sales, which excludes educational materials were really substantially almost seven percent year over year, which is kind of crazy when you think about all the challenges that there have been to the retail ecosystems chain, all that kind of stuff and you know. There was a huge fall off of educational material. So that's something one area of the industry that is still struggling quite a bit i. think they showed a decline of nearly fourteen percent for K. through twelve instructional materials, and then university process were also down slightly higher education course materials were down. But if you're looking at sort of trade publications fiction nonfiction, they're pretty much across the board adult books were up nearly six percent children's and young adult up nearly six percent as well. So that was encouraging and we've continued to see a rise in print sales from NPR. I think the question, a lot of people have and one of the alarming things now is just this major shift in where and how people are buying their books. So there has been a real strain particularly on independence is more people are shopping online or shopping at big box stores, and they're buying books when they go there, a lot of independent stores are struggling and our colleague. Elizabeth, Harris had an excellent look at the fate of independence in a story that she did this week for the paper she talked to some of the. Stories that have been struggling are looking at the holiday season is kind of maybe meeker break for them. A lot of independence I think count on holiday sales for something like thirty percent of their annual revenues. So this is something that a lot of people are worried about on top of that. You know they're concerned about getting printed books in time they have the additional costs because their mailing books to customers instead of selling them at registers. So they're selling a fair number of books, but they're spending a lot more money to do so. Number booksellers were part of this coordinated effort this week that was led by the American Booksellers Association to sort of get the word out that you know we do need Your Business and we need your help some even just raising money not just selling books. A lot of independents that participated in this outreach effort put up signs kind of pegged cheekily to Amazon, prime shopping day where they give meter discounts and so some of the sign said things like if you want Amazon to be the world's only retailer, keep shopping there you know. So they were really sending up alarm and asking people. If you care about your independent store. If you want to exist in your community, you know you really need to to shop here or help us out earlier in the pandemic you reported on a new website called bookshop dot org that is selling books on behalf of many of the independence. How is that going? So that has continued to grow and that's been a positive development. One of US sort of silver lining if you will from pandemic because they were prepared to launch this year anyway but. They always hope to kind of present themselves as the independent alternative to. Amazon. So if you WANNA shop online come to us and we will either directly to an independent, you can buy from or you can buy it from us a raise money and share it among independent. So this point, they've raised more than seven million dollars for local bookstores. So it really came out of the gate kind of right at the start of the pandemic and got a ton of attention and I think it's been. A really a good channel, a good new sort of sales channel, but bookstores don't do quite as well in the sell through bookshop they don't have to handle any of the merchandise so they don't have any cost, but they don't get as much money because again they're you know they're not selling directly. So it's not necessarily going to be a solution long-term. It's sort of a nice supplement and I think it's a good addition to the retail ecosystem particularly as more and more people are shopping online. But I think independent stores often say we still need your direct sales in your direct support. Well, had the good fortune of getting a day off a couple of weeks ago and I went to a nearby independence store which I got to visit by appointment only and I have to say, I, really really Miss Bookstore. Browsing yeah. It's one nice thing is that I? I went with my cousin and this story allowing one household or grouping in at a time. So we had the entire Stewart tour. And it was really great personalized customer service and really nice to. Be. Able to search for you know full half hour. So I spent much more money than I was intending to do but I feel good about it in the end exactly. We can all feel good about spending money that way plus there's so many good books out this fall who? What are you reading Alexandra? I just finished a book that had been on my radar, but became rose quickly to the top of the list because it's a finalist for both the Booker in the National Book Award and that's Douglas Stuart Shuki Bain and it's long and it's absorbing. So it's really I think exactly what I want to be reading right now we give us the like to sentence summary like what's this about? So this is a story of a boy growing up in public housing in Glasgow in the nineteen eighties and he has is the primary caretaker for. His single mother WHO's really severe alcoholic and although his circumstances almost couldn't be worse he suffers from bullying he's gay but doesn't quite know it and he gets picked on and he's lonely and he has to skip school to make sure his mother doesn't do something terrible to herself. It's also very funny and very sweet and tender, and it's almost a love story about their relationship and the language is beautiful. There's incredible dialogue. So it's been a wonderful distraction from the news. Will you've distracted me? Alexandra, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me US Now parl single and John Williams to talk about what they are reading and reviewing and thinking about John Pearl thanks for being here. FM. Thanks for having US parts. Start with you because you didn't interesting thing. Recently, you reviewed an Audio Book I. Did I reviewed Thou- She by Michael Specter starfighter the New Yorker who wrote a profile of Dr Ouchi, who's known for decades in the professor? The New Yorker came out in the spring I think in April. and. It's now been expanded into an audio book. And I. I was interested in in both about sort of like backstory of doctor didn't know very much about him and also you know the experience of will y y make us into audiobook. This article that already felt pretty comprehensive pretty detailed. So I had a really interesting experience week right I was learning a lot about Dr Fauci and also really trying to think about why put the article in this medium and increasingly see journalists moving over to podcasting in so many ways. So it was a real chance to sort of think about also, what are the advantages of that particular medium? What medium is this it? was released by Pushkin, which is a podcast studio released as an audio book as you say, built on an article what is this thing? So it's very faithful to the article. First of all sustained structure takes you from early years to sort of presence that he's had during Covid, and then kind of opens up to talk about pandemic preparedness or our lack of pandemic preparedness. Now, the audiobook sort of augmented this with a lot of archive footage and you know some, you can hear his voice you can use some conversations. Now, the idea that this is a biography biographies a bit of a Misnomer. So th Ouchi you the access to choose very tightly controlled by the White House Specter and She was known each other for very long term I think talked a few times on the phone they they didn't meet in person. The book doesn't really go into some of the questions I invariably have as very nosy person you know, and especially about somebody likes Ouchi who's who's had this life he's worked under six administrations. He's seems so much. He's he's really worked within these corridors of power. He's had huge transformations in his own politics maybe not. His politics that in how he regards medicine in regards his own position. So for this psychological back story, there isn't much of that. It's more sort of story of his public life and what he exemplifies that Specter's very interested in this idea that she is somebody who throughout his life has been characterized by very rare trait in life, which is an open mind and an ability to be persuaded by facts and he'll change his mind he'll change his. Course. So this is the sort of personality trait that I expect to really seizes on in this book and says how rare this is important. This is what is sort of lost art, his ability of good old fashioned trust an interest in the facts we did this came out in his response, his initial, and then revised response to the AIDS crisis. Absolutely. So he was part of the medical establishment and became the public face of the government's inaction. Indifference and part of this was was related to the fact that there was a very, very high bounces to a clinical trials that if you were on an experimental drug, you could not take another experimental drug which the active protesting they were saying look we have people dying. Let them have access to some kind of medication. Let them have to choose between dying blind or dying all of these things? It's a fallacy in the beginning was resistant but. There's a moment in in the audiobook and in the profile where nearly started to listen to the voices of the activists and you he thought these are these are primarily new, Yorkers. Larry Kramer this act opne said that why are they? So angry, why are they taking these to these measures at Fao she considered histrionic in fact and he said, let me let me listen. So he went to act up meeting you went to war he went to the San Francisco went to the castor. He met these men and he started to listen to them and he started to to see the sorts of unbearable choices they were going to have to make and you're verse chorus he said. Look these activists actually a lot more than we do. In certain cases they become student they've been forced to become students of their own disease. You know he made his transformation that really flabbergasted a lot of his colleagues there was a whole lot of like what the Hell is happened to fetch you. He's sort of sold out. He's become an activist, but it was a case of him sort of looking at the evidence and and saying that this is not the best course of action and with Specter is is he says that will why haven't we'd looking at the evidence you know we're entitled to a lot of feelings about Kobe title to our grief were entitled to our. Feelings of panic, but should we be surprised I don't know for entitled to surprise, and so he done he starts to chart the long history of pandemics around the world all the lucky breaks. America. got from SARS from swine flu. What did we learn to learn anything and will we learn anything from covid if and when this thing comes to an end not even when when it comes to an end? So this is the way that story refraction opens up even though biography may not be the most. Accurate word, it becomes this this really interesting way to ask a lot of these questions and for Specter in in a in a way to reflect on his long career reporting on epidemics all around the world was the audiobook that best medium do you think to tell this particular story? Well, I don't think it. It has to be does there's so many mediums. The story has been told I was actually surprised in the beginning about how moving it was to even hear Specter's voice he doesn't have the best. Sort of narrative doesn't have a good typical audiobook voice in it feels like somebody reading a little bit at times but the because it didn't feel professional in this way, and because he was talking about his own work and his own relationship without Jeez relationship with Larry Kramer if emotional felt exasperated points, it felt authentic in in a way that I started to appreciate and I think that there was also something very powerful in hearing the voices of the activists in hearing vouches cheese on voice in during their. Accents and hearing how New Yorkers story is in certain ways all of this sort of made a a more more intimate experience of a feeling of your felt less rarefied. It didn't feel like this is something happening in some other some other place, some other sort of corridor partner this happening very much here between these people that are personalities and who know each other and worked together and and been antagonists for a long time. So it worked for me it worked very well and made this. made it seem. I vivid vilified it again for me made it seem really guard I. Want to ask a question actually from one of our listeners and ask it both of you and John Have you. So this comes from an email from Bruce Kendall, a longtime listener of the podcast who says that recently he's found books are sort of easier to listen to better listen to than read and I. Think he started thinking about this after listening to us talk about or a crime by Trevor Noah he says, Trevor Noah speaks the voices of the characters and born a crime most memorably his mother in. A way I could never ever imagine, and then he writes the other author who immediately comes to mind is the Great George Saunders. I listened to Lincoln and the Bardo a fairly experimental novel but the cast of notable in rather talented narrators saunders also narrates apart and is to my mind by far the pick of the bunch. When I hear saunders narrate I, hear the construction of sentences, the music of his pros in a way I can never recreate in my reading of this work. This I found true of his short stories as well. George Saunders is better listen to than read. Perhaps. It is my mind playing tricks on me recognizing the voice of Saunders and believing that his narration must be ideal. He wrote it I suspect not having listened to many other authors narrow their own work. Many are very fine writers but truly awful narrators. So here's questions. He's curious to hear your positions on reading versus listening, and then he has some kind of fun really open ended questions like what long dead author would you like to hear read their own work and which book would it be over to you John? God. A lot of questions. I can make some of this very short because I almost never listened audiobooks, and in fact, I'm not sure I've ever listened to a full audiobook. I could say sort of you know antagonist way that this was. A bias against them it's more just the way I think that my listening brain is built. I remember this all dates back to about twenty five years ago. Probably I bought the cassette tape at least twenty five years ago of the accidental tourist by anti which I had read and liked, and I saw that John Malkovich to the narration and at the time I was. You know in sort of a John Malkovich phase about bunch of movies I. Love. And so I thought okay I've never done this and sell it try it out. And of course, at the time I was driving around a lot in my car and listen to it. The problem was is that I found. That I'm such a huge music listener but what I realized very quickly as that and of course, this makes sense is that my mind very often drifts when I listen to music. So you'll be in the car and you'll hear three songs on the radio but one of them didn't even really register they'll thank you, I, heard that beat for a minute. I forget actually the process of listening to it and so I would. Phase out and then a minute. Later, we'll have to rewind now for the plot and the story and I don't know what happened. So I think I became too accustomed to music being background for me. I couldn't bring the attention I needed to listen to an audio book because I was always doing it while doing other things and so I've never really gone back to it but I do also have a natural bias I think. I like having tactile books around and I like underlining things in them and going back to them and I just that's that's my reading life and it's very hard. I'm an old man. Only, an old man and spirit John but you know you're not alone in this and I I think especially when I'm driving if if there's an audio book in the car then it's really hard because like one you know like wait a minute is this the turn or is that the turn and like whatever I was listening to is just gone you know we would listen to remember there was a period and this may also have to do with having lake three young children in the car, but we'd be listening to like Hamilton's mythology and like at a certain point eight. Oh no what God or de my God. This is like I don't know what lands were in I just get hopelessly lost. And if you are paying attention and you're riveted. Something's gotTa go and I'd rather not die in a car crash parl. Something tells me you're more skilled on this. I'm still laughing John Oland spirits. I. Greatly appreciate that. Yeah. No I think I've written about this. I actually learned to read with audio books. My mother was a very. Great reader and extremely impatient, and at some point gave me the audiobook of Rebecca by Daphne and the audiobook by Claire Bloom and was sort of like had it work it out I've grown up with audio books and I can drift between the two very seamlessly. I still listen to a lot of audiobooks I. Actually liked to listen to audio books and two people talking while I write, which I understand is very perverse that I think I grew up in a very loud. House allowed cities. So I'm I'm very comforted by the sounds of just like ambien conversation argument in terms of people that I I. Love You know I as much as I love reading Tony Morrison Her audiobooks are sublime and she really really Put so much work into. The voices of the characters she really. She reads them thing that you don't. Oh I didn't pick up when I when I read I pick up. The irony, the Sloan is sometimes She does incredible voices and you can really hear us some of her sections or put together more like music than they pros at their poems. They're they're not stories exactly. You can hear the repetition is a real crescent with the really the task especially school I would I would highly recommend for years and years and years. I would just I would have it on and I highly recommend that I also recommend I. Mean I don't recommend listening to this one. You have roommates as I made the mistake of doing when I was in Grad school I I loved the Jeremy Irons Rendition of Lalita and my roommate at one point asking me to stop because I would like clean the house this thing to Jerry. Three Louis I really didn't understand could make anybody uncomfortable. I mean I think and so hard I suppose. To she was just like I understand this is something you enjoy this as part of your ritual, but can you not and so I chose that? And now I'm. A really good. Song. I WANNA ask Bruce kindles question again though of both of you because it is an interesting one a hard to answer on the spot. But who long dead would you like to hear read their own work? Or of course, the easy I wanNA hear Melville Reading Moby Dick and I want to hear Marianne were reading her poems and. Those the two I think for Burien more I would love to hear just have funny some of these these tones are or just how wounded and we project so much onto this poet who is very reclusive. The they sit hidden and I I would love that sort of insight and then for Melville I think just to to hear him how how the sentences rolling sentences in chapter sounded to him where he he would take a breath what he thinks some of the sentences that I think would be. Awfully. Now you're making me think that we should listen to faulkner to right I mean, wouldn't it be amazing to hear how he wrote some of the you know how he imagined some of the bear and the other stories in good. To kind of go that. Mine Wedge. The sound in the era too. You know like a tumbling sections and Mattress person in this voices for sure. Clinical recommendation for. That might be interested especially to little kids. Kate. winslet his has a few. The role doll looks especially Matilda and they are fantastic. We're GONNA have a fight owner you hate them no have you listened to rural doll read them see this is where I don't know if I could because I'd complicated because everyone dies role doll you know and I love the books but I think if I hear the voice I worry I. Don't know how we tell me about his reading will you need kate like a kind of like a like an entity area of the so it's not like a direct contact I mean despite whatever one's feelings are about royal doll the person and I think it's generally known he was not a Nice Person The way he reads his own books is so amazing. He's got that you know like weirdly Norwegian tinged sort of British accent and he reads very very quickly, and once I heard him read his stories I couldn't listen to those the Kate winslet. The Emma Thompson have a great lineup of of of talent to read those books. But for me, it's Walder no one. Intrigue I love. Kate. winslet. So I'm GonNa that's like she's John Malkovich for me. Now here on Pearl what about you? Who would you want to hear you know I was going to say as long as we're going hypothetical I was going to swing for the fences and say give me home or reading the Odyssey. But then I realized I wouldn't understand a word he was saying So I would still sort of maybe say I don't Shakespeare reading a Sonnets or something I'd love to hear just the really like Melville on. Moby. Dick the kind of. Biggest of the big. Why not? I. Think. A lot of people who I like probably wouldn't sound that great I mean I'm a big fan of people who are pretty crabby and who I don't think. I would imagine that to be very formative in terms of bringing something alive off the page and I would just everyone commute me. I'll just say for twenty seconds that you know I would love to go back and be in person when William James gave his varieties religious experience in attenborough and just read them live because they were lectures that later became a book one note on the Shakespearean sonnets apparently Patrick Stewardess, reading these aloud and some kind of social media venue I don't remember which one and they're supposed to be quite good. Right, I just someone like one of those but open it up parlay apologized for picking a fight with the Roald Dahl rating I will be more open minded kate. Coming I'm sure. Remember. There's more at NY, TIMES DOT com slash books, and you can always write to us at books at NY TIMES DOT Com. I write back not right away but I do. The Book Review Podcast is produced by the Greet Pedro Rossato from head stepper media with a major assist for my colleague John Williams. Thanks for listening for the New York Times. I'm Pamela Paul.
Night Class - E3's Avengers / Dark Phoenix / Fox's X-men
"I no. Right now, get a five court jug of Napa conventional motor oil for just eleven ninety nine. That's a pretty unbelievable deal for pretty unbelievable oil, but trust us. It's totally real. But only for a limited time so gig. You're five four. Jug of Napa conventional motor oil for only eleven ninety nine today, quality parts helpful people. That's Napa know how, how general states pricing sales presses. Do not include applicable state local taxes or recycling fees, limit six per customer. Opera and six thirty nineteen. Hey, how you doing? Welcome to the show, your host while valley. This is in butcher, and you're listening to night class. But before we get started, we wanna give a shout out to double toasted for hosting the show, and they're soundcloud page. Campbell moon dot com is currently in a partnership with double toasted dot com. Member of their affiliate program, and as always the views of inbet-, your annual valley are not necessarily the views of double toasted dot com. So with that out of the way, let's start the show. So I sat there for an hour as square in next to their entire presentation. And then finally at the end, you know they did the vengeance thing, and I questioned my entire life up until. Why the fuck did I just sit through this? And I think I know exactly why they put the end because it was so fucking bad. If they lead with people, we're going to turn it off media. Were building. Hey guys, guess what? We got the vendors license, but not really. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny because I'm watching this on YouTube. Discord server on the side. If all these comments pouring in funneling in and every single one of them was like for an hour, avengers. We wanna see venues fuck this. I don't wanna see final fantasy twenty seven. I don't care. Keep moving finally venues came and the disco server went silent. Really? Yeah. It was just like dead. And then all of a sudden you saw question marks barf emojis. Hilarious. It was so funny because it's like you know what you got what you wanted. And now you don't really know how to react to it. And I find that that's kind of the case, not just with the venues. But maybe Dirk Phoenix. Definitely. So we'll talk about dark Phoenix, and we're talking about maybe a little bit more about that event. Did you see the? Yeah, I checked it out. And it looks like it looks like it's like the be level version of events. I feel like a large part of that just to the fact that they don't have the likeness rights to any of the actors always that. The case, I think for. That was the biggest thing just like this looks like that thing I know in love, but feels like two or three degrees off center. And it just it's a little weird. It's like I can't quite pinpoint why work just doesn't it comes off to me like those dollar mart action figures you would see like. You know, like, you know, venture. Well, this is like, you know, family, value, dollar tree, and you're like, yeah, like the paints kind of squished, you know, batmans in the box with them for whatever reasons. Yeah. You like yeah. This, the colors are just off paint peels. Like, yeah I can see why this is three dollars. Yeah, yeah, I guess that's a good way to put. It looks like the three dollars. But I do think that might be reason for it square nixes Japanese based company. So I'm wondering if maybe that a some of the influence, you know, these guys are the majority of the time with making Japanese looking with Jay or PG's whatever. So I'm wondering if maybe they just kind of like a, a cultural thing. Yeah, yeah. That's another thing could be that, that we're cultural divide where the adventures in the marvel aesthetic is so much like an American thing in could be that maybe having another culture or, you know, or developers from another country, tackle that there might be something lost in translation, that again, I can't quite put a finger on because it was almost like they weren't doing Japanese versions of the characters. They were doing what they thought version of American would look like because they couldn't get the lightness, right? This is what American stuff looks like right? Yeah. Feels like the vendors right? Like well. Yeah. Like an alien came to the planet like this is your favorite super game like well I mean you got. April the twenty four kind of like Solis, you know, is your copy version, actual Hugh, Jackman metaphor. Yeah. That's, that's a good point. I think maybe I mean there was like, some, you know, of course, they have to come out with tweet them because they have to respond to this. No. Where we're gonna think only consideration. I'm pretty sure they're fucking running around the clock, like with that sonic thing four thousand animators working, you know, in sweatshops to try to fix this thing, that's thing, especially with the sonic movies. A good example on the one hand yet. It's kind of cool up, acknowledged, like okay, this isn't really going over. Well, on the other hand knowing how those industries and especially the visual effects industries. Then you just know. Yeah. It's like, oh now like a bunch of animators aren't going to see their family, the next like six months because they didn't plan or you know, workshop this idea of the design of the character properly. And so now, you know, all these animators are gonna have to suffer. Well, the other thing, too, is, I guess, the projected that the may of twenty twenty it, I'm sure pushed, especially if it's like a top to bottom kind of redesigned. Yeah. Because that's that's the thing like that stuff like that. It takes time any type of video game or visual effects design, you need a lot of time to do that. And suddenly have to like you know, something they'll get into dark Phoenix today. And suddenly have to change your mind halfway. Through the course. Correct. Correct. Yeah. The look of that of those affects you're gonna suffer a lot of things suffer. So let's get in the dark Phoenix. I don't think we can be on the internet, fourteen seconds without having someone bringing it, right. So I mean we don't really do reviews on the show, but I would like to just kinda get like your overal djing opinion on the movie. And, and then I'll tell you mine, and we'll go into is centrally why we think the internet is acting weight is. Yeah. So this, this is a movie Evan interested to see, you know, just from the moment they said they were. Yeah. And everything I heard about it about, you know, k- kind of doing the dark Phoenix thing. Again, you know, hopefully, you know, something a little more colleagues accurate. I felt like I was one of the only people kind of sticking up for this movie. Yeah. Granted, I didn't watch any of trailers beforehand, and that might have that might have been packed that you don't hurt all the negative buzz and everything surrounding it. You know, going in and I saw the movie and I don't think it works. I don't think it's a particularly good movie. But I also don't think it's nearly as terrible as everybody's been. Saying everybody's been piling on saying, oh, this is the worst X men movie every movie fucking sucks. I don't think it's a very good movie. But I think it's, it's merely kind of dole and bad. It's not excruciatingly terrible. It's no newsmen apocalypse. And I do think that there are things about this movie that are interesting. And the do kinda work for me. You know, enough that I'm not you know, as checked out his AM by something like an X men, the last stand or worn. Excellent, apocalypse or any specific things that when you watch movie like okay, that just doesn't work from, like narrative standpoint. I think a lot of it for me. I really like an appreciate how small and contain the movie. That's it's my favorite thing about the movie but it's also in a weird way, the most frustrating thing about the movie for me. Because on the one hand, I like a lot of the movies just two or three people standing on the street corner. You know, it's very, you know, contained on the other hand, though. I think it's really weird that they chose to do that with dark Phoenix story. Yeah. And especially how the movie starts because when the movie starts, it almost makes you feel like oh, it's going to get big. They're going. To do the nineties cartoon which I was on board with because it's very it's very big when it starts, it's like even to the point where like they call the president. And he's got like ephone with a giant Exxon to get out and stuff like that. It was like okay like this is the level we're going to be at I can I can go with them going to space and all that. And, and then. Yeah, like right after that, the movie just kinda shifts gears and goes, we'll know we're going to keep this very, very contained. I feel like you can make that argument for all of the X men movie. Sequels to movie we just met. Yeah. But especially with like with Jean grey was cyclops, you know with all these new characters. Yeah, they were in the last move, but we didn't spend nearly enough time with them. The know them in the last movie for a lot of the stuff in this movie to really matter. You know, and, and the other turns of the characters we have had for a while, like eggs, Abeer, an interesting idea that they kind of play him as the villain. But also, there's again, a weird disconnect because you go. Well, this doesn't feel. I don't feel like we've built naturally to the point where would be acting like this. He's been such as, you know, stalwart character for so long to then very abruptly go, we'll know now. He's egotistical booze house. Sure. It's like, again, I feel like we're missing one step to kinda get us from there, there. I so I think you analyze it the way that a lot of people are able is right. So you try to look at it broadly. And you try to say, like you know this is what we were expecting. We shouldn't expect this based off of the movies prior to this. I to the Sagren. Many always sort of judge movie sort of being in a back. You know, does the movie work as a whole by itself separated. Right. Sort of disparate from all the other films. And I think it does. And I actually think it's probably one of the better ones because of that. Yeah. Because you can you can do everything you said. Right. You can compare it to them, so you can say, like, hey, these characters, you know, we had years and years to build up to them. But I almost appreciated the fact that it was the smaller story about this sort of superhero team that if it came out as like the first X men, indie movie, you really wouldn't care so much about all of the previous stuff that led up to it. You just be like you would kind of go with it, you'd be like, like Batman, one or whatever you just be like, oh, he's already hero. I don't really need to know why we're getting to that point. And then I also think to this movie. It kinda gets shit on because they were like, you know, the stakes are high. The stakes are higher in this movie than they've ever been because it's not about like global threat. It's about like, you know, sort of undoing the team. And if they undo the team, it unravels everything. And I think that's something that is sort of overshadow, because a lot of people don't like this, although it's not in the laundry, the fake, Jessica Jesse in character they make up, but she's really just a catalyst. The movie is not about you. You know, like end of the world kind of apocalyptic type stuff about like not giving into fear. It's about not giving into negative emotions about egoism, and I think it does all of that stuff really well so much to the point where I don't even think I've seen anything on that level in another expert movie before I definitely see. That's what the movie's trying to worship. That's what the movies trying to do. But for me, I never was really emotionally engaged in it because I thought, even even looking at this movie as self contained. If I had issue with the stakes being small, I just kind of went like, okay, so, like I don't really care about gene or really know hot about her as a character. So what really are we doing wrong? The train literally going nowhere like, what's, what's, what's, what are the stakes what's, what's going to lead to? Why does this really matter in the grand scheme of things, especially because of all ready seen the Phoenix story play out before. But it's like, anytime you compared anything you not allowing the movie to just stand alone by itself. It's like if you're going to say, we'll the source material was different than stick with the source material. This is not like a new problem. I mean, there are plenty of movies out. They come out where people are like, oh, will the book was so much better. But sometimes these narratives, they don't translate the same way like Dirk Phoenix may have been great as like for what feigns we're looking for a ten per each series. Maybe you know. Like, maybe it's one of these things that you have to you have to adapt, reduce it. Yeah. That's why it's called it adaption. Right. So that you can try to fit all of the moments in there, because I, I remember thinking initially, hey, you know what they're not doing this Yar empire thing. And they called us something else like the DR. I guess we're changing everything about the villains. Right change that, because a lot of and I noticed it watching the movies, a lot of like chess dialogue is all offering and probably eighty yard because it, totally changes the eleventh out. Yeah. But then the more I thought about it, even though they changed it kind of, you know what do I really wanna see like the whole empire lake thing introduced at this stage in the game. Nationals be the final X men movie even though I think it's clear watching it. It wasn't really intended to be at the eleventh hour fitted into being in the last one. But I think this one, it's like what these a lot of moral conversations, and a lot of sort of undertones, it was kind of, like watching a Star Trek movie. Yeah. In a lot of us. Movie is people just in rooms kind of talking about having philosophical debates essential that is not what you're looking for, which I totally get that I could totally see why you might not enjoy this as much as you know, these again all that stuff is stuff. I like and I think is interesting about. Yeah. And even though I might not even though I might have issue with execution. I still think it's interesting bad movie. Where like those scenes those conversations those debates even though I think a lot of the dialogue is pretty rough. And, you know, a lot of the emotions, feel unearned I'm still interested in and a little on board because I go okay, like at least the approach at your taking. Yes. And that's enough to kind of keep me on board, you know, throughout the movie as opposed to apocalypse, which is incoherent that I just kind of check out a lot of that movie just becomes I like how the X men are officially superheroes in a weird way it was like the first and maybe obviously, at this point, the only actual X men movie. No. And that's again, that's stuff. I really liked about the movies, okay? Here's the ex-minister celebrities, but then also going. Okay, but let's actually stop and think about how weird this is this guy keeps kids in his basement for PR missions for a press underclass people. Like, yeah, I think it's really interesting commendable the movie goes, like, no, no, no. Let's take a moment. And like. Let's look at this, and it's and I guess that's stuff my frustrations with the movie of that. I wish that it had double down on that more and really kind of dug into that for me at least. And maybe that's one of the issues. Right. It's like it can't be everything to everybody, you know. And so it has to pick and choose unfortunately, you know, it just turns out to be what it is. It's funny I very rarely this, but it is type of movie that I feel like should have been about half an hour longer, totally to let a lot of those things just kind of breathe, and especially a lot of the characters get the short shrift like, you know, Matt magneto. I love fast bender but like he's barely in the movie, and that's really interesting kind of the way they're playing it or he's a guy who was like, look I've done horrible things. I'm trying to like just not fuck with anybody. And I just wish we had more time to kind of sit with that. And that is one thing that although I do like judging movies being vacuum doesn't work at a vacuum, because you have no idea who he is. Or why he is where he is unless you've seen the other movies, and if they had introduced any part of that earlier, whether it's. News footage or something, then you can say, like, okay, I know who he is setting him up. Same with Jean, and Scott. Let's see them on some dates that stuff I would've liked by the time that like they have, like ACM together. She's already on her way to becoming the Phoenix. Give us like five ten minutes. You don't need a lot of screen time. If you do really, really. Well, yeah, look at Logan, you know, us just five ten minutes just to be with these characters. You don't have to necessarily move the plot along, you know, or any of that just give us time to, to see as an audience how they interact, you know, what their relationships like they are so that, then we have at least attachment to them, then, when later on things, crazy and tested negative. I thought they were gonna do that when they had the scene with a dazzling. As weird man, I, I liked it because it reminded me of the parties, go delay school. They're all outside, and you lose, like forty people and, you know, they have those throwaway cups, and I was like this works, but then all of a sudden. Injected into it. And I was like you did too much. You know you needed to pull it back. Maybe that, that seems to have happened like in public, you know, and then it would have given professor x reason to say like OSHA, we really need to worry now about how this works. It happens in field with a bunch of other any like, well, okay. Worked with dynamic the early setup because you have exerted going oh my God. You know, we can't let people see this, and then what I thought was interesting what they were doing mystique of going. We'll know this is all just PR for you. Like you really don't care again. You know, I for me it would have enhanced that debate. But I also think that they have that scene with the the beast. Professor x getting trashed. I like that seem to, but I think it's interesting because beast is sort of judging him and he saying, like, I would have done this. But the fact of the matter is you don't know what you would have done. And I think it actually in a weird way, great sort of empathy for professor. X you like yeah. Maybe he's just trying to go with the flow or maybe he really is like playing chess on another level, you know. And I again, I like you said earlier kind of just wish it did more stuff like that the internet, which is that it would just explode we're gonna get into that when we get back. Hey, this is will valley just want to thank you for listening to the show. This is the audio version. But if you want to check out the new video episodes, and go to Campbell moon dot com. There you'll find the most current episodes, exclusive content video essays and an entire archive and shows that you can't find on soundcloud, can also check out some of our cut down stuff on YouTube if you weeks after it premieres. And if you can, you know, subscribe, their yada, yada, yada, you guys. Anyway, let's get back to the ship. Okay. And we're back and we're going to get a little bit into our main topic. We're talking about, essentially, I guess the kind of divide that you're seeing online with the YouTube community, but not just there just anywhere if you, if you bring this movie up, you know, I saw a whole post on Alamo draft and it's fifty percent. Lovin fifty percent hate it. It's so polarizing. And I don't feel like anyone is able to just say, like, hey, you know what? It's tepid move. It's, it's an average movie. And I think we can do that for anything anymore. I think that's a lot of just for whatever reason. Internet culture worse. Yeah. It's very binary. It's either you either. You know it's the best thing you've ever seen or fucking sucks do nothing. But trash and that was the big thing that kind of weird me out watching this movie hearing all the buzz before. And how everybody was going, oh, and is a fucking nightmare a mess. And watching going exactly what you said. This is okay. It's kind of this doesn't even like muster enough. Energy for me to, like actively dislike it. Yeah but because we only apparently now work in these two binary. Yeah. Well, I think the reason for that is, is like it used to be like that. That's actually more of a new occurrence, you'll get like YouTube. You look at Netflix who used to be star based systems, you know. And you could say, hey, this a two starts at three star would try to kinda gravitate toward stuff like, but then eventually like, no it's a thumb system. You hate it, and it doesn't really give you any in between. Right. So because it doesn't allow you any type of scaling, you're forced to make hard decisions. And then that what does the day, right, it perpetuates tribalism perpetuates polar opposite thinking. And when I see more of it online, especially with dark Phoenix. I feel like a lot of people made their minds up before they went into the movie. Definitely, I think a lot of that was almost like the anti marketing that was going on for it, where they're like, oh, the movie had to be reshot and people have whatever their negative connotation is already associated with that. So they're going in, and they're think, oh, well, I'm sure it's trash. So I'm going to overlook anything that could even be possibly a little bit good about this, and I'm just going to say this is the worst thing I've ever seen. And I've definitely been guilty. There's been times you've been guilty of that. Like there's a part of that is just. Yeah. But it's, it's really fascinating how that happens so often now. Yeah. All the time it seems like you know, if anything people have even the slightest degree of problems with any movie or TV show. They watch immediately it's fucking sucks. And I think actively, actively hinders a lot of people's enjoyment of movies thinking that Byner because there's plenty of movies and I watch that, you know, if you were to go just go. I don't know. It's in the middle, you know, and at least for me, I always focus on what are the good things I can pick out shirt. Example, always uses Ilene three. You know, I couldn't put that movie in a. Because they're equal things I both like and dislike about it, but I don't think I think that in some ways, make them it'd be more interesting and more worthy of discussion. Because then you go, why do the things in this work that do work or why don't that don't work, and it's it promotes at least in my opinion that promotes critical thinking as a moviegoer, and that's something we're really getting getting rid of yet. See, I think you really just hits you hit home. They're like you said it promotes critical thinking, nobody wants to think critically anymore, right? They wanted just because it's easier to say it's the greatest thing ever. And then rally off punch reasons why. Or, you know, take the opposite approach is the worst thing I've ever seen. And then, you know you just make a bunch of like, oh, the acting was bad, but you're not really judging or you're not really acting really kind of putting yourself out when you review stuff like that. You doing everyone a disservice even doing yourself into service because at some point, it's like I already knew what this person's going to say. With the say she that that's really gets on my nerves about a lot of internet culture and how it processes media is these ample was uses comparing like honest trailers, to, like, cinema sins where similar I can't fucking? Stand is all of just like let's just try to tear this thing. Bash it trash it. It's perpetuating kind of negativity as opposed, something like on his trailer is where you can tell that's coming from a place of genuine, and even if it's something that's bad. It's never it's a joke. Yeah. What's never kicked, this thing while it's down? It's let's just point out the things whether the thing is good or bad, regardless of that things in that, that are you either kind of funny, or just don't quite make sense. But we kind of go out with things still works anyway. Yeah. Or just things that prompt discussion. And again that critical thinking analysis which for me, that's like fifty percent of the movie going experience. Yeah. The watching this stuff. And then afterwards going. Okay. Let's unpack that. Yeah. What does that mean to you? What does that mean to me that work for you to that work for me? Because when you do that, you know, the movies, actually more. Enjoyable. Oh, yeah. You know, it's easy to sit there and just trashing. It's easy to sit there and things. I mean there's plenty movies that come out every year. That was the greatest thing I've ever seen. It's okay. But when you sometimes a movie comes out, and you just wanna you just wanna have a commerce. What, what is it really about what are the layers of this film? You know, a lot of these people. They might only see once so there is no layer for them. There isn't a there's no there's no onion right to to slice. Oh, it's just it's whatever the guttural emotional response was the first time they saw it. And that's all that it is. And, you know, there were plenty of movies that come out, constantly that you hear like, oh, if looking just, you know, tanked in the box office, and then after a couple of years, people like oh, you know, what space odyssey two thousand one pretty fucking good movie. Empire Strikes Back actually probably the best movie. This happens more often than people even realize my one of my top three favorite movies, as unbreakable. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Out, and everybody was just like what the fuck, you know, this isn't a six cents. Cut to like almost twenty years later now. And everybody's like no. Now, we've had some time to, like, look at this thing there's a lot going on under the surface with this later later. That's maybe the best example. Yeah. Yeah. Movie that was like just not even trashed, it was just met with the very kind of blase response. Yeah. And it just because when it came out, John carpenter's the thing, you know, another example of that of, like movies that came out, and it's the movies were at fault. It's that it was just bad. Timing didn't quite click with the culture at that time, and then ten fifteen years ago by people look back at it again and go, okay, I'm going to different police in my life. Now missing, you know, works better for me out. That's an interesting question or movies, only good because of the culture that surrounds it because I feel like there are plenty of movies that come out that I mean you look at any Oscar winner of the sixties would not win an Oscar today. Oh, yeah. You know, just like okay this is kind of hard to watch, but then there are plenty movies in the seven. That still hold up today and you like totally sue. I win an Oscar. Yeah. I think it's it depends on the movie, some movies, you do kind of have to have that context to enjoy them. Yeah. Going back to X men, if you go back and watch the first X men now it's like it's, it's charming. Quaint that movie. It's so small, and it's like three people in a room talking and then like they blow up between station. Like it's very very the bedroom. Came out the exact same way. It was today in. Yeah. Nobody would take it seriously. But you have to watch it now with the context of. Okay when this was made you know, the state of which things were in. Okay. I can appreciate it in that context. So you feel that let's say movies, like dark Phoenix, when they get sort of trounced on, it's because of when they're coming out in. And maybe that's one of the main reasons I think that's definitely part of it with dark Phoenix. 'cause I know you know, they have wanted this come out before captain marvel before. And I think that would have helped movie a lot as far as like it's just public perception, sure, you know, because you it wouldn't be feeling like it's having to compete with, frankly, more successful movies. Yeah. But also there wouldn't be that whole thing of, like, okay. The movie's been pushed back, you know, three months supposed to nine months. And yeah. Over that time the negativity in the I don't know, just kind of builds and builds and builds and builds do definitely think that's a part plays a big part in the reception. You're seeing that are Phoenix. It was wonder if this movie was just a casualty of timing, if it had come out when it was supposed to come out pre Infinity war. I think then I think it might have been like, oh, you know, it's not the best movie. It's not bad, or hell even if, if this movie was, if it came out in two thousand six. I think we all would have been like that's the dark light of fuck it out. Good movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like it's competing with just that self everything else, and it's tough. It is tough. I feel like in some ways as that type of internet, greeting new Kerr gets perpetuated, more and more and more it does. Get harder for filmmakers. His they understand what you're going to feel the pressure, and maybe take less risk, or be pressured into taking risks. Yeah. Because of his weird binary standard with, which we judge reading. Two is considered like judging. Yeah. This movie is in a position that not many other movies have to worry about where the rights have been bought up and because of that you sort of engage in this winter picking where it's like I wanna see mortals version of this. And if I shit on this movie now, I'm, we'll keep putting my voice out that I'm going to get a better version of this down the road. And I think there's a lot of people who don't even realize that. That's what they're doing. Right. It's like a baseball team or a football team. When when that team wins, you say, oh, my team did great. When the team loses you say they played poorly because only one associate yourself to whatever you conceive is the winning team at the time. So if morals, the winning team you're going to say, well, you know what FOX fuck them? They don't know what they're doing. It doesn't matter what they put out at this point. I just wanna see what morals gonna do. I've definitely seen that. A lot of like all of a sudden, the narrative is like all these FOX. Yes. Yes. Let's get it over with. It's like guys like okay, yes. They're definitely a mixed bag and there was a wide variety of quality for these movies, but it's like just like a year and a half ago like wasn't like Logan nominated for fucking Oscars all talking about how great. And it's, it's, it's weird and it does make me feel bad for the filmmakers feel like a lot of this movie. And especially if you read about all the kind of behind the scenes Trump, this movie, I do feel really bad for everybody involved in this just seemed like it was just bad timing, you know, because we're kind of fighting an uphill battle of lake okay? We're trying to make this movie. We're coming off a one that didn't really work. Oh shit. The whole company is going under. So, like all of our marketing and everything's it'd be underfunded already that sense of lake will FOX's and kind of really care about this movie. So why should I which is and it's a disservice to the people making the movie also like if you feel like the people, making the movie that sort of, you know, perception of things right? If that's their attitude that release onto Audie. Definitely the audience is like, look, if you don't give. Shit that I'm going to stop giving also part of it is there that sense of, like, all right? We, we know this is the last one now, kind of feels like the ex French is is just puttering out. A lot of people are just like our get this over with is over now. I mean, barring whenever the fuck new mutants gets released about that. I bet you guarantee, but I think it'll probably come out. It'd be a free movie and Disney, plus. Yeah. You know, because they're going to one of the loaded, they're gonna wanna slay sort of incentivize people to be part of whatever that platform is what it comes out, and they're going to be like, look, we don't need to waste money on, on marketing, this thing, clearly lost dark Phoenix, and again, it sucks. I feel bad for everybody who worked on that move. It's like you know whether it's good or it's bad. It's just, you know, to go through all that time and all that money, you know, and then for all these outside factors are totally beyond your control just kind of gets screwed over again. You're asking me in between the bricks like how long until you think you know, they're gonna actually started up again. I'm wondering probably maybe five years. Yeah. I think like five to seven wait like a full decade, but they're going to definitely give it some breathing room. And then we had talked about whether what they plan than doing with it. And you said you thought that it was gonna cosmic yet, what's thing, it's like watching this is we have like, twelve X men moves, you know, on the one hand yeah. It's exciting to see the possibilities. But and I kind of feel the comics men is always kind of been its own thing. I always felt that. Yeah. And so it is kind of weird going, like, well, how is that gonna fit into the MC you and what's a new interesting take? You know, that hasn't already been done in all the extra movies. We've had, and I feel like I feel cosmic is the only thing left because the X men, you know, that's kind of one of their things always go to space fighting alien. And they kind of started to broach on that a little bit in this movie. But then they back away from it and feel like just going full force with the cosmic stuff feel like that those logical way to go. Yeah. I what I think they'll end up doing is like let's say they want to redo dark Phoenix probably will. But I don't think it will be maybe they'll, they'll involve all along riddle. That's what I think they'll do is, they'll do of injuries versus the X men, which, for those of you don't know the story where the adventures approach spent like look, Jean Grey's fucking dangerous. We need to get rid of her and the. Get the fuck out of here. So the both of them battle, and then professor x dies and cyclops dies, and etc. Etc. That's I look sort of a civil war type movie interesting. Okay. And I, I would guarantee you. That's what they'll end up doing capital twenty twenty seven or something like that. But by that point than this new generation, here's will be established on. Sure. Okay. Let's give them their civil war. Yeah. At this point in the MC you, how are you going to suddenly introduce mutants this concept? It hasn't been around and frankly a world where they are now at this point, a lot of repair people running around. What's the big deal with meetings? And I feel like a challenge. I'm interested to see them over com. Well at the beginning of end game, they say that the earth is covered in Asian at this point. Two things that are going to happen. One is that's going to it's going to notify silver surfer. Right. So then he's going to tell Gladys like oh shit. Check this place out. But maybe that'll be how they introduced into the greater MC you. That would make sense. And also, they were kind of fit with, like, what they're doing with new Spiderman movie. Yeah. Kind of introducing me idea that like, okay, all the all the fan of shit. Like kind of is like messed with reality. So we're now we're dealing with, like multiversity after-effects that will play in the, their introduction of mutants. Yeah. Probably be something like that. I don't know if they're going to do a time travel thing, although I think it would work with, like, fantastic four that would be perfect, because, like, let's say did happen in the sixties, and they did sort of like a Steve Rogers thing comes back really matter what he was doing for fifty years. I don't know. It's, it's interesting because they have a pretty blink cameras to, to do whatever they want with these characters we were talking about a little bit. I kind of want to go into that because I watched it before I went and saw, Dr tina's because. Refresher. Yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna say something incredibly unpopular. I don't think it's poorly directed. Really? No. I think that it's actually very well shot. It's like decently edited. I actually think when I think of directing I'm just like, is it coherent. Everything makes sense. I've never lost in the movie where I do think it suffers immensely is the script. Okay. Because I think the story just doesn't make any fucking. Why would why Metag? That's why why isn't she aged? Why does no one in these fucking movies aid? Even if you just going gonna get into that, that's more of a marketing issue. More like she's like sneaking into a cave. It's like the Louis lane thing from this is the cheapest easiest laziest way to write an inciting incident. You know. And it's like a lot of movements like that. They never really express what apocalypse as powers are. And it's just kind of like. Hands things. He can do that stinks thing you go. Okay. If I don't know what the limits are, then there's no roof there, than what why should I care? Yeah. And then, you know, again, the ending where it's like I guarantee, you, they didn't know in the in the script or while they were shooting it, the mass destruction that magneto was gonna create because by the nice old friend thinking, easy. There are a lot of decisions like that. Where you're like that's just very strange. It makes a lot more sense. Now again with all the kind of behind the scenes that's been coming in, especially with that one. How Simon Kimber was the writer on that because of the whole brain senior thing. He basically with this, as well had to kind of end up directing most of those movies insurgents, kind of sounds like that movie was just kind of a fucking mess to get me. It's a lot of ways. It's no surprise that you watch it, and you're like. And this thing is all over the place that just are useless, the coal BAC seen to the Eurythmics song. I'm just kind of like, yeah, I know why you did it, but it doesn't add any interest to me, and all it's doing is reminding me of a better movie. This is cool, but I'm just thinking about the passing fresh original, and this will still very well executed is just it's a step down it. Yeah. You know, just by the nature of what it is. And it's pointless it is. I mean, if it's have death, then make it have extent doesn't mean will. That's a whole thing where like I'm watching CNN go, and it took me a minute to realize what apocalypse didn't do anything. No, have it just fucked up and blew the whole house like again, it's like it's weird decisions like that, where you go. No clearly you make apocalypse do this established where threat. He is. Sure, you know and have him knock off. He has no regard for life. It's the movies full of just very weird decisions like that, where you're like, I don't older dengue. So they could bring striker into the movie again for a twenty minute. Detour shoehorn Hugh, Jackman where the actual main plot of the movie stops. Oh surely. And you know, there's no need to be in the media like he doesn't do anything that's worth it. So it's like again, it's like X men two. You're going. Oh, I'm just thinking about this way better moving. And that's what happened as I was watching it. I was just like he's just kind of lewke remaking X to this, even the scene were there in the cerebral in there, like, rearranging it, and trying to, like, you know, look for other people like did this. This weird. He did a better even at the end. Like the whole plot of excellent apocalypse is essentially a wanting to weaponize, professor x she's the exact plot of X men two going, I'm gonna take professor x tournament. We'll weapon because they were trying to at that time playing catch up with more definitely, you know, they're like, hey look, you know, morals doing this, and we need to we'll have expanded you do stuff. You know, big fucking buildings exploding, but, you know, it's like Ceylon shows up and disappears. I think she says one word. Yeah. It's it's decisions like that. But tink that whole movie and I feel like it's not just them. They have to play catch up with marvel. It's them going. Okay. We're coming off as a future, passages like our biggest movie ever. Yeah, we have to somehow find a way to make even bigger when it's like, and that's again going back to Phoenix. One of the things I like about. It is it's going, okay. This doesn't have to be, you know, continuing escalate escalate escalate every now and then let's take back and smaller movie we don't have a breather. So that big end of the world stakes movies those matter more, because we're not constantly, making them all the fucking time to is, it's sort of suffered for, like, what I call twenty four syndrome. You know in twenty four there was always like a huge threat. And the, the way that the I don't know executed. It was that, like, port of the threat would always kind of happen. Yeah. You know, Jack Bauer was very ineffective in a way because, you know, the president might have always gotten shop, maybe they got shot in the shoulder, but they still got shot the buildings still blue season like a nuke went off in Valencia. This five more nukes for you to find disabled the other one, but you still had to get that sort of cinematic moment. And I feel like this movie sufferings from that routes, like, unfortunately because the stakes are so high. Minimalism version of that, like. City explodes, or it doesn't. So we can show it starting to explode. Yeah. Hopefully, you know, you have a change of heart but overall, it's this like you almost yours bit off more than you could do. Oh, absolutely. That's watching that movie it was like there's way too much. Even on, like a more fundamental level. It's like I wish they had either gone. Okay. We're gonna make this, the rapid movie for the first class character or we're going to use this as an opportunity to make movie with the new character and build them up. But because trying to both I think it doesn't disservice to both. Yeah. Whether you like them or whether you don't you'll never have to worry about seeing another one. Anyway, episode. We'll be right back. When like last day and came out that line on the pitch. And I, I didn't from such an asshole. And then I found out that it was like actually I didn't even realize like one of the first, like internet, meet Yemen. Yeah. The future. Always setting the not too distant. Future them back, then to six they could have seen the future. They had store. Futures even. Show for being here be back next time with the brand new topic, but until then don't forget, you're not we'll valley but I am in ear. Kim dot com. You don't really carry anything to send me an Email anyway, do so with the film's gmaiLcom. All right, everybody good night. That shot for. The bowling movie kingpin. The good one asking. Over the guys like dick. Favorite scene. There's a difference between doing yourself and do it for a living at the Home Depot. We get that. And we're to help froze, get the job done with the products and brands you trust technology to keep your job on track job site delivery to save you time. And both pricing on over four thousand items every day to save you money when you've got a job, we're on the job. The Home Depot. More saving. More doing. There's a difference between doing yourself and do it for a living at the Home Depot. We get that. And we're hued help froze, get the job done with the products and brands you trust technology to keep your job on track job site, delivery, to save you time at both pricing on over four thousand items every day to save you money when you've got a job, we're on the job. The Home Depot. More saving. More doing.
The House on the Lake
"And He's just a good dad. Loves US so much. It was pretty traumatic because no one wants to have both their parents taken away. Anchorman awful things they say. Try Rip your family apart really know who to trust. Everyone said what what a fabulous mother she was. She's really pretty. She's always smiling. People see me and her Michelle would never leave her children. The blood stains on the for the inside walls. I knew they were focusing on me. I want this to be solved. I want to know what happened. There's there's no doubt in my mind is guilty. Far Mom was already gone. And they're trying to take our data away from us or the four day against adds to why life is on the line and my kids relies on the line. I'm not guilty. I didn't do this. I didn't commit this crime. It's a long winding ride. This tale stuttered with surprises. I just felt like I was being kidnapped in broad daylight and no one could help me. It's the story of his life and there's we cannot sit here in silence and watch another tragedy of justice take place it's about their world. The one that fell apart in a time they can't recall. Do remember very much your mom anymore really long time. It's about about what happened on September Day. The rest of the world can't forget is you're a corner of your brain the thinks maybe it was somebody else. Not at all not at all fifteen years four trials would it never end. I just put my head down. I went numb. I I just I went no tonight. The climactic chapter in the Family Saga One. That began in a moment. All the drowned out in the chaos of history. Are- two thousand one. The Harris kids were little seven. Six four and to the family lived in this sprawling patch of wilderness where the private private lake in the backyard. Living in paradise seem kids have still have a lot of happy memories out here you know. It's just a very very unique in a special place that we were fortunate enough to To purchase you know years and years ago unique and special place at only a prosperous first person could afford like the prominent car dealer cal Harris. He loved it out here too. He said and taught his kids to love it. You went out with the kids new hunting fishing You name it. We swim in the lake. We jet ski in Lake. We Water Ski. My kids like to bring their friends out. I really enjoy just just to be outdoors. It's a fun place. President is always fun. I can't imagine over in presents. The new things get well. I can't think of more. Ideally placed a half Christmas. And does it feel like that at the time and it was here in this patch of Paradise Sir cow that he woke up one morning in two thousand one to find that his wife. Michelle wasn't home. She'd gone to work the evening before didn't come back. Mary Harris cals and he didn't know where she was and what happened. Who Carpentry was better and honestly he didn't? It wasn't something. He seemed comfortable talking about a lot. I think it was very emotional squirm. She was gone gone without warning. Her friends distraught called her cell phone. How are Jio possible? I am worried about the jury so phone message haunting now. There is something else about as you should know the night. Michelle Harris Vanish was not just any night. Eleven thousand one things are in some some kind of disarray. They were and so nobody was paying much attention to the disturbing events here. Little A we go New York troopers have all been sent to New York City. There's a skeleton crew left at all. The Stations Moulvi was a senior investigator. The New York State Police. She took the call morning of September twelfth. Would you do I said to investigators over to talk to Calvin Harris and I sat a uniform warm trooper up to the House go. Heroes opened up his house to them. He said whatever you need. Look wherever you need to look. We have carte blanche I want this us to be solved. I want to know what happened but morning. Investigator movie do only this. She had a missing person case on her hands. And with luck it will resolve solve itself speedily as many. Do we kept hoping as everyone did that. Michelle would call her house or call one of her friends and show up cows at his Dan. Mary was completely focused on his four children had to leave it to others to search for Michelle. His thing was okay time for them to go to school. All right now. It's time for me to pick them up. I need to be sure that if this is the routine that they are that is normal for them. We're GONNA keep them in their routine but where was their mother. Here was a clue clue and it didn't look good. Michelle's van had been left at the foot of the long driveway leading up to our house out here on that country. Lock the keys. Were still in the ignition. Where was she always? Investigators video camera in hand searched the house outside those two hundred plus acres to look through that area areolas homesteaded heavily in the eighteen hundreds. So there's a lot of late up wells and old foundations and things like that now we didn't i. I am not outside but a few days later. They did entered the residents through the open garage door. Senior investigator. Steve Anderson I. I noticed Bloodstains on the floor and on the mouldings of the doorway that let out to the garage and there was more blood. Tiny stains in the kitchen. Rug they sent it out for tasks everything on the floor on the inside walls and on the carpet came back to being shelve blood and suddenly the case look very different. Then we knew we had a real problem. What in the world happened to Michelle Harris and they have what would appear to be an idyllic life home and beautiful children surprising revelations relations behind closed doors? We learned more and more key became the focus. A husband suspected daughter question. I didn't talk. I just sat there and cried the whole time. Michelle Harris thirty five year. Old Mother of four was missing a New York state police investigators. Molly felt sure of one thing. Michelle had not abandoned. Her children. That clear picture that we developed is that Michelle would never leave her children ever. So was it foul play after all. Michelle van was abandoned at the foot of her driveway. Driveway and that blood on the garage floor and in the kitchen alcove jesting proved. It was Michelle's blood. There's a lot of blood in the garage. Judge then spread over a wide area. And there's a lot of blood splatter mean over sixty drops of blood that's been not not just drift but splattered by some force on that throw rug. India didn't make sense. This woman wife of an affluent car car dealer devoted mom mug an unlikely victim and they have what would appear to be an idyllic life in a beautiful home and beautiful children it got off to a storybook start he the attractive wealthy car dealer. She a pretty young woman from modest means answering phones at a Harris family car art dealership. What attracted the two of you to each other? She was very outgoing and very attractive and good personality. He was a knockout. She was funny. You choose vibrant. Mary Harris was also taken by cows. New Girl Michelle she said was a woman for anything athletic Let's have a good time jump on the jet ski jumping or four Wheeler Dainty. We as it were another gye retiring type either either. I mean that's part of why I thought they I mean they're their personalities to me seemed to really Mesh Michelle fell hard to for the man and his lifestyle. Gary Taylor is your dad me one some dealership thing and they went to Switzerland. I think in you know I mean there was a lot of perks there that she'd never had before so August. One thousand nine hundred. Michelle cow got married here. Beside Empire Lake was great day it was just a beautiful setting and very relaxing Not Very stressful. Just kind of being a big party afterwards. The fairytale rolled on the the kids kept coming. They built the House on Empire Lake and here on their private preserve. They were a family in motion fishing swimming skating. Michelle into all of it and now now the kids are much older. Of course. They're mom her. They had no real memories long. Time is true most your lives and how old are you. I'm not sure how I was but I don't have any memories. It is often told by those who knew Michelle how much she resembles her mom. I have seen pictures over. She's really pretty she's always smiling. Seems like a really happy person so it makes me feel good that people see me and her even with that terrible loss said the kids. They've grown up happy and content for the most part. All thanks to one person. Just tell me about your dad. Kind of guys funny He's funny he's the most caring guy in the world. He's nice and where his whole world then he's protective even even just loves us so much and wants the best for US protective WHO said he tried to shield them best? He could from the not so happy times. Michelle was really struggling with those kids at a young age which I totally understood what I noticed was that she was just drifting away from being being a stay at home mom and I understood that there was certainly friction in the Harris married. He loved order. She not so much she had in a room downstairs and she called the Chuck Room. Airfare is going to be a party or picnic or whatever she'd throw it take it down Chuck Room. She told friends and family. He he had a temper a controlling way. Once back in Nineteen ninety-six she called her sister-in-law from a closet terrified. Had The gun outside the closet is it and she was inside hiding. Would you hear about that. He was out there as a pump. Gun I guess. And he was racking pump action up and down and tolerant come out cow later denied. It was true that he'd been fighting or threatening the show with a gun then in nineteen ninety nine. Michelle learned cow was having an affair affair. She was devastated but not ready to end the marriage and cows said he wasn't either Michelle said. Oh you know we can work through this but you know you gotta get rid of the girl. She worked up at the CORTLANDT dealership. They did what they could to salvage the marriage. It didn't work. She told her family. He cut off her spending spending money. She took up with a young man and November two thousand a month later. She told cal she wanted divorce. Her family said he didn't take a boil things in that big house in paradise grew strained. Indeed why did she stay in the house. Her attorney had advised her to stay in the house and To not leave. They divided the parenting duties and worked on a settlement. Michelle got a job as a waitress at a local restaurant bar. That's where she. He was the night of September eleventh. She finished her shift about nine. Had some drinks who to co workers and then she drove to her boyfriend's apartment left Airbud eleven that sumo we believe was the last time anybody saw Michelle Harris. We did a lot of work on a a lot of different people early on and it wasn't until they were eliminated and then we learned more and more about Calvin that he became the focus district attorney even tried to speak to. The two eldest children didn't accomplish much beyond frightening them. Apparently I know I just sat there and and cry the whole time. I didn't talk. I wasn't allowed to be in their Taylor but older you the time I was in fourth grade and he was in fifth grade so nine nine and ten but da Jerry Keen said he interviewed plenty of other witnesses. Who convinced him that? The police had the right man in September. Two thousand five four four years after Michelle Harris disappeared the DA charged or husband cow with second degree murder. Three state police personnel literally utterly busted into my office and kick the door open and the three of them jumped me and handcuff me and shackled me and Walking walking out the front door of my office you gotTa taste on order up close and personal yeah the DA was going to take the case to trial even even though there was no body no murder weapon and even though he himself was by no means convinced he could prevail. I thought that it was is maybe a fifty fifty shot at a conviction. I thought that a jury could go either way hurts yes absolutely all of it was just taken away. Prosecutors come on strong. He told her that he would put her body in a place where we'd never be owned loaned at the evidence. I think it could very well have been the most important part of the case. True crime is my passion. If you're listening to this show I'm guessing you can relate but sometimes even I need the occasional break and when I'm looking for a mental pallet cleanser my go-to refresher is best beans best. Fiends is a five star rated mobile puzzle game and it only took me a couple of minutes a plane to figure out where all those five star ratings are coming from. It's fun it's challenging. The gameplay unplayed changes every once in a while I'm already level thirty five and it has stayed exciting the entire time I've been playing. You can play off line too so best. Beans is great for travel on a plane train. Wherever you find yourself all of my upcoming holiday travel is definitely going to be a lot more manageable knowing? I have this Super Fun game in my pocket to pass the time engage. Engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons acute characters with best beans. Trust me with over one hundred million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play download for free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the our best means. Hey Guys Willie geist. I hear this week on the Sunday. Sit Down podcast. I get together with Sterling K.. Brown to talk about the big success of his show. This is us and we have an emotional conversation. Sation about fatherhood around his new movie waves. You can get it now for free. Wherever you download your podcasts? In September two thousand five four years years after his wife Michelle vanished cow Harris was charged with murder. Oh it hurts absolutely you know. I had a good standing in the community. Had A successful business business. Donate my time and money and resources to a lot of good causes and the community. Raise my kids in that community and You Know Oh all of it was just taken away but the Thai Yoga County. Da had become convinced. That cow killed his wife late on the night of nine. Eleven and as the children's Lebron slept disposed of her body. The more I met with the people that were close to Michelle and knew something about the case the more convinced I became that the trial began in May two thousand seven with the prosecution claim. That cal Harris was then used to being in charge of everyone on everything in in his life is in control of his businesses. He's in control of his wife. He's in control of his finances is employees and and His children and just kind of domineering person. More than that said. The prosecutor Caldera's could be volatile show began in keeping notes about what she said was abusive language and behavior. In fact she won a temporary order of protection against what he said to her was. I wouldn't wouldn't need a gun to kill you and if I did kill you. They'll never find your body in the heat of passion. People say terrible things to each other doesn't mean they kill them though but he went beyond saying terrible things to her. He told her that he would put her body in a place where it would never be found. And that's like one of the biggest facts so the case that we've looked and looked and looked for this woman's body and have not been able to find it the Harris family babysitter. A woman named Barb. Fair testified that she was the one who found Michelle van parked at the end of the long driveway. She goes into the House and she yells is Michelle here because their cars at the end of the driveway live way and the defendant without missing a beat. He just said we'd better go get the car according to the babysitter. Cal didn't seem surprised. Raised doesn't ask her any questions about the keys like he knows that the keys are in the van. This is an interpretation of a person's reaction. Yeah you're right what it's all all these hundreds of little things that convinced me that he's just not acting like someone would act if they didn't know what had happened to their wife later that morning. When New York State troopers talked to cal- they too made note of his demeanor? They seem kind of unconcerned. Learned he was more concerned with getting Michelle Harris's van cleaned up and back on the lot. The motives said the prosecutor. Peter was simply money. Cal had learned that Michelle was demanding an appraisal of the car business. Did she intend to take a piece of it in the divorce. All of a sudden everything is out of his controlling zome. The argument went if Michelle disappeared. Cows problems did to he. He was going to have his finances scrutinized he was perhaps not gonna be able to stay in the marital residence. Certainly has children are leaving and the the next day all those things are back in his control. Finally that blood evidence prosecution witnesses called it medium velocity spattered recently. I think it could very well have been the most important part of the case as far as placing Michelle bleeding in the house With some force having been applied to that blood and no explanation for it so what happened that tonight prosecutor keen but his theory to the jury. She got home that night at about eleven thirty Parker car went in through the garage door and that assume as she got inside the house she was struck with something by the defendant. She went down on the kitchen. Rug Key he said was struck again. That blood splatter so this would put her down either on her knees or on her bottom and she's being struck and the blood spatters on the door and on the carpet took her back out into the garage and later down on the garage floor. She must have bled some some of the garage floor. Because there's an area three feet by six feet where blood was found then. The prosecutor cow tried to clean up before he disposed of the body. He would have been taken the car back down to the end of the driveway. Walk back up to the House and disposed of the body during the seven hours or thereabouts before he called Mrs Thatcher. The defense defense attorneys tried to Swat it all down and calderas himself was adamant he had nothing to do with his wife's disappearance. It's one thing to say. Look I'm innocent. Listen I didn't do this but it's another to have so many people accusing you pointing the finger at you. Look I'm I'm not guilty. I didn't do this. I didn't commit this crime. There was no body no murder weapon and the defense. The forensics were unconvincing at best but the jurors weren't having it it was June two thousand seven. They they came back guilty. Cal Harris broke down and sobbed. Because I knew I was Gonna not see my kids. I knew I wasn't going home that night Pinot and I knew how they were going to be and just was overwhelming. But in the eyes of Michelle's family it was finally justice at then extraordinary thing happened. My first reaction was come at the judge is not going to accept. This guy's acclaimed A.. New Witness with an amazing story and it turned the Harris case on its head As I was going by the harassed property there was a blonde woman out. There looked like she was crying. I don't was her. Had this man. See Michelle Michelle as the most bizarre story that you could ever told it. Ready for trial number two You what happened here in Little Owego New York in August two thousand seven was almost unbelievable. Kawahara convicted of killing his wife. Michelle show who is about to be sent away for twenty five to life and suddenly it all blew up right in. Da Jerry King's face. I came into the courtroom thinking that the defendant was going to be sentenced and it ended up being more of my being on trial. Who who on earth had the power to make this happen? He did Kevin tubs. I know that she was there. Okay I know she was Kevin Tugs plainspoken rough-hewn farm worker back then was hauling Hay. And why was he so important because after six years during which tops for he barely registered the fuss over the Harris case he picked up a paper saw the story of cows conviction and and I seen that and I started like recall. You know second-line Oh my God just like that. He's suddenly newly said What he saw the morning after nine eleven the morning Michelle Harris disappear was important did was between five thirty and six in the morning? He said he was hauling a load of Hay as I was going by the Harris property there was a blonde woman out there and a young gentleman you know as early twenty s standing by a pickup truck. My lights is right on them and hardly more than ten feet away. He said he looked straight at the young man saw. He was dark haired muscular at visibly angry. He looks like dislike. What do you want and the woman she was looking down just by her face looked like she was crying upset or wasted the woman? He said he was certain of it. It was Michelle Harris was her. Was it true if Kevin tubs really did see Michelle on in the early morning hours of September twelve the prosecutor's case was in ruins because cal Harris couldn't have murdered her some seven hours before an innocent good man had just been convicted and so the judge tossed out the verdict call for another trial and sent cal home to his kids. Many including including Michelle's family thought tough story with bogus. Everybody knew is lie and I mean it was the most bizarre story that you could ever told hold then of course trial number two opened in two thousand nine. The prosecution attack tubs credibility. Why did he wait? Six years to come forward deal for the defense. It's TUBBS was pure gold. The man to create reasonable doubt. There simply isn't enough evidence to convict kill hair supporter. Bill Eastern Eastern was one of CAL's attorneys. There's not an eyewitness to an ear witness to what he didn't confess to it. None of this direct evidence is present. In this case. It's the prosecution. Argued that cow showed how unfeeling he was by failing to join the search for Michelle. That was nonsense that Mary cow simply trying to we keep altogether for his small children. There were dozens. Maybe hundreds of experts scouring the area looking for her and there was one person taking care of these four kids that allege motive that cowl was worried that dealerships would take hit because of the divorce. Not so sad cal side. His lawyer told him Michelle. Couldn't touch the business and that anyway before she vanished. Michelle had decided decided to accept. Gal Settlement offer seven hundred forty thousand dollars. She had indicated to numerous people she was happy with the settlement. Besides Mary. There was plenty of money to go around and no amount of money would have made Kale They say Aha for two million dollars. I'm just going to wipe her out then. There was the blood splatter in the kitchen. Alcove could've been a cut. Finger said the defense in any way nobody could really tell when it was left there. And that's where a prosecution claim. The cow tried to wash away blood on the garage floor. There's a small amount of diluted blood which was found days after the New York state police had walked through this particular area of the House while they were conducting the search coach walking out. It's not going to destroy the blood cells. They can deluded if their if their boots are wet. Finally the defense decided jurors needed to hear from CAL Harris Zor carrying carrying father. Not as the medicine husband the statement about to be so that offended took the stand. It was nerve wracking. I you know obviously my life is. He's on the line and my kids. Are you know their lives on the line. He admitted to an affair blamed himself for the end of the marriage but denied he threatened hurt or tried tried to control Michelle if anything he said Michelle had been living a bit of a wildlife staying out all hours just before she disappeared. She came when she pleased East. She had money to spend wasn't tracking her down the babysitters here the nannies were here She was off doing whatever she was. I don't even know what she was doing was enough. The jury deliberated for almost two days. And it wasn't guilty again. Takes your breath away. You know it's like in stabbed in the stomach. Just I'm numb. You know I already been through it once. Family and friends stepped in took care of his small kids who began a weekly ritual. Visiting Dad in prison Taylor the eldest he go and you get to see him for two hours a week. And you got a bunch of other people talking and it's loud loud and can't really have a private conversation. That leaving was definitely the hardest part for us. I mean yell at the other. Well what was it like. Driving three years go by then came a day in October. Two thousand twelve. When cal Harris found himself crying for joy in the prison yard rare? I mean this is really a new chance at freedom. You urgency from the kids. This is kind of our time to come out and do our part and a whole new theory on the case. It's it's all coming together. It's time to look elsewhere. Trial number three. Hey It's Chris as you know sometimes it's good to just take a step back from the day-to-day onslaught of news and take a broader. Look at the issues. That's what I'm doing each week on my podcast. Why is this happening happening? Were exploring topics ranging from school segregation to climate change. Well the way that I think of it is climate change will be to the twenty th century what modernity was to the nineteenth century. It'll be the central subject of questions about economic justice. Everything you care about in the world will be affected by climate and digging deep with guests uniquely qualified to analyze issues from mass incarceration them to race relations. As you know for the first time in our history at the national level whites are on the verge of losing their majority status in twenty years. And I think it's no coincidence that that our politics are getting more tribal. Join me for wise is happening new episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. Gal Hera's won the lottery. It can hardly even more surprising than the news he heard in the prison yard October. Two thousand twelve his rare. Though I mean this is really rare for what happened. and New. York's Court of appeals overturned cows second murder conviction said the trial judge made mistakes during jury selection and when he allowed hearsay testimony so the Appeals Court order. Trial number. Three Qiao once again went home to the house and Empire Lake and his four growing children. Tanner you're the youngest was in eighth grade. Then Restaurant High School Alice. Great what a change easy. It didn't take long. Who just all he had to adjust to what our plans or yeah? Well you've been coping on your own for so long. Take this time this third chance. The kids were determined. This would be different. We want to know that our dad will not be taken away from must again for a client. We now he did not commit. It was a very public coming out. Kayla address the cameras rest of the kids and their teary eyed at sued by. We not sit here in silence and watch another tragedy of justice take place launched a tip line asking the public to help find find out what really happened to Michelle was march. Two thousand fourteen. It's time for a real investigation. That will give us answers. I think it was. It's a good thing for us to finally come out and talk about it. Carol hired new lawyers and they condemn the state for an investigation which they said was blind to any suspect but their client lead. Defense attorney Bruce Bar cat. They've pursued this man. For fourteen years with scant evidence. The defense went back to witnesses. The police had interviewed years before. Talk to others and heard a whole new story of Michelle's last hours on earth I earlier. Trials said reveal the mother of four had been hanging with an unsavory crowd coworkers. Customers from her waitressing job attorney. I eat a lesson ring. There were people there that had criminal records. There were people there that were dealing drugs. There were people there that were making sexual advances on the night. She vanished after she left her boyfriend's place now new. They said that Michelle did not go home because one of those witnesses reported seeing her later we do that night with another man a local steelworker attorney done on September eleventh on that night in a bar in a dance dance club. He actually said and that he was there but then he left the two of them alone and he went home. Steelworkers pod with Michelle was a regular at her restaurant to the defense his name was stacy. Stewart the defense said. He told his friends he had a sexual relationship with Michelle and said the Defense Stacey Stewart appeared to be the very man Kevin Top saw with with Michelle in the early hours of September twelve. There was a blonde woman out there and a young gentleman You know in his early twenty s dubs identified that man from a photograph his physical appearance his facial hair his height of his age and the type of vehicle drove dubs said the man he saw was standing beside a black truck. Stacey Stewart owned a black truck same kind and it's a new model and it's a Chevy and you look everything up and it's all coming together. Stacey Stewart has denied any involvement Michelle's disappearance. He's denied he ever had relationship with Michelle. said he was never even loan with her. Still Cal side was convinced that Stewart and a friend of his played some role in Michelle's IOS disappearance in two thousand fifteen trial number three opened in the town of Harry. The change of venue necessary said the defense because the case was too well known tiogue Noga County and the defense managed to get some of the prosecution's case thrown out. The state wasn't allowed to suggest as it had before the blood was spilled around the time show disappeared the have forensic scientists get up and speculate and guess how old blood was based upon the caller from a photograph is not rage. Asli unsupported proposition also out hearsay testimony from prosecution witnesses. Who said Michelle told then? The cow threatened her life. We don't think they belong to evidence as part of the reason cases on the first time in the second time then the defense attempted to present its evidence evidence about that alternate suspect Stacey Stewart and the judge. Shut them down. The jury would only be allowed to hear. Stewart's name that Michelle knew him that Kevin Tubbs had idead him and that he owned a black truck of the time. No more why. Because Stacey Stewart wasn't on trial Caldera's was the wrong man. Attorneys insisted cow did not deserve to be on trial and frankly Michelle Shell and the her family deserve better. We all WanNa know what happened to her. It's time to look elsewhere. There was a new prosecutor. You too this time. Thai Yoga Counties Kirk Martin. He made the same arguments as the previous. Da Saying the evidence pointed to cal Harris killing his wife. The trial took three months and finally late April the jury got it and the waiting began. Michelle's family still convinced convinced. That cal was guilty. His you're a corner of your brain thinks maybe it was somebody else not at all not at all well cow and his family hoped the jury had been persuaded otherwise. You know. You have been confident before when you've gone on trial because you sir. I didn't do it. I should be acquitted and yet you weren't. So how does that impact your thinking now. Just by what Bruce and his is team have done in the investigation. It's got create some doubt and we didn't have that before so uncertainty. By this time it was a way of life for for the children so I think you know if things don't go our way it'll definitely you know turn all of our world's upside down but I think we're I know we're tough enough. We'll get through it but you know you definitely don't like to think about that kind of thing. We definitely plans what we WANNA do. That's all said and done and over with with the good end turns out. We'll talk about that at all AK Shen. So we're cool. Maybe what would happen this time breaking news out of these Henry County courthouse. Would you believe trial trial number. Four shocked truly shocked In Caldera's I two trials jurors returned their verdict. Swiftly third time deliberations dragged finally almost two weeks in the jurors jurors made it clear they simply could not reach a verdict breaking news out of the Cherry County courthouse. The third CAL Harris murder trial has been ruled a mistrial by the judge a mistrial style. It was the outcome nobody wanted. We got closer to justice. But we're not there yet Michelle's family convinced they knew the truth of cow murdered. Michelle lift the Court House without comment. That ran out and tailgate. County prosecutor. Kirk Martin vowed to do it. Again again there have been two guilty verdicts in this case and I eagerly await the earliest possible trial date that fits with the court schedule a fourth trial trial really. Yes indeed in March two thousand sixteen Deja Vu all over again same courthouse same cast of characters rectors with one notable newcomer judge Richard Matsch when Cao waived his right to a jury trial. The new judge God suddenly had a starring role trial number four. He would decide the case. It also decide whether to hear the fences new evidence in the end he allowed out some but not all lead. Defense attorney Bruce Bark cat but the truth has finally began to peak. Its head at this trial we finally begin. Begin to see at least an outline of who is actually responsible for Michelle Harrison demise the peak to. That's all bar cat. made the most of it quoting voting testimony about something that steelworker Stacey Stewart. One said something about Michelle. He says I was the last person to be seeing with her when she was alive. Fence Attorney said they wanted to put Stacey Stewart on the stand but couldn't track him down so now enclosing Barkat didn't offer a detailed theory about what happened. Michelle didn't have to. I'm asking a court to find Mr Harris not guilty because there's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed this offense four trials and now it was all on the line and so d. A Kirk Martin came on on strong. That whole defense theory. He told the judge was a fantasy. There's no evidence. Stacey store had any sort of relationship with Michelle let alone any reason or motive to harm one hair on her head finally said the. Da After so many years so many trials it was time to convict Cal Harris once and for all Michelle died at the hands of her husband. The defendant Calvin. Here's so what would the judge do do. We presented the evidence about what we think happened. The judge was terse. His verdict brief was no explanation. Just two words words Caldera's children had waited fifteen years to hear not guilty when he came back with the not guilty. I was just. I was shocked. I was truly shocked. Shocked overjoyed and saddened by what he'd lost. Its best years of My life is apparent and I'll never get those years back. He will also never stand trial for his wife's murder again. Exonerated now and free finally to speak his mind about his terrible fifteen-year-old deal from my standpoint. Personally I think one of the greatest hypocrisies in our country is our criminal justice system. There is nothing fair air about it now. A man goes free. Vindicated by the mystery endures about a woman who vanished on a warm warm September night while the rest of the world was looking the other way.
The Crown Season 4 Review - Movie Trailer Reviews
"To the mtr network. Shenanigans are a foot doctor here with the crown crew. The anglophile crew back to cover season for the crown. I am here with thai friend of the friends of the show tie and asia row and my fellow supergirl. Mtr network buddy. Shanna say hello everybody we we're here to talk about one of the long awaited Seasons of the crown that gave us princess. Diana entering the phone. And the charles camilla diana. Whoever else was in a row the hotel Parallelogram charles charles. They tried to say diana. Yeah we tried to get that rotation goer. They really tried to break. I hate okay. I'm not saying that she doesn't have a right to have a hotel. I m saying. I don't appreciate them. Basically trying to intimate that. She was a hoe because she had mini. I didn't like what they were implying with that. I mean if you were hurt it makes sense to have multiple lovers. Because you can't any guy who gets too comfortable gotta go yeah. Is that simple. you know. And she wasn't like charles. Charles was trying to be like you know. Why don't my my wife and my mistress become best friends. They don't you think camilla you would be pm. You know like she wasn't trying to do that he did try. That did not yet. Right look have become friends. It'll be wonderful. Camilla's commandos lovely. You'll love camilla the she's right. She's a hoot. That's like do. My rich exit isn't going to be great. I'll oh no who your thoughts on this. I enjoyed the season. And maybe because i. I love the political intrigue. And i'm pretty familiar with that time in british history. I know that they take a lot of Liberty shall we say with inner workings of the family. But i loved it. It was quite entertaining and the acting was really superb. Have a question because at the v had only put this like i know that like the palace put out. This is obviously a work of fiction. Right and i can't help but wonder if everybody jumped to the conclusion that they were talking about diana and kind of joke. I kind of joked on that too right like oh yeah for. Diana was so much worse but in re thinking about what we saw this season. We also saw the relationship between thatcher and queen elizabeth. We saw how from actress perspective. And how the crown portrayed it that behind the scenes royal family was just a bunch of inbred hicks. You know with the games that they played in the ways they behave and stuff like that. So my question for you is not obviously. What's your what's fast. We don't know that. But what were your thoughts on that trail because up until now we hadn't seen them be really that crass i mean okay full disclosure. Shanna has never watched the crown west crown this season. Diana is my homegirl. And this is like the period in history. I actually kinda sorta knows something about so. It was like oh we jumping in exe- them four. We're in this. I was really surprised because the way. I've always thought of the queen. I've thought of her as being late. Very shrewd very calculating about the image that it's out and very In the know about what's going on Within her palace walls right like that was how. I've always kind of heard of her being And i was really surprised because she don't know nothing that's going on now through feeling like she has no flipping idea and clearly clearly underestimated. How in love charles was with camilla. 'cause charles was sabotaging that marriage left in right before camilla and so. I think i was just really really surprised. Because i was like this is not the clean. I've heard her being And and we had to talk a little bit about it. 'cause i was like crazy and i do think it's going to change after everything that happens with diana i was just really really surprised because i was just like she does it. Like i think it'd be one thing if they portrayed her as like knowing but being late. Y- you gotta get over it. But they really late protrayed her like she didn't know that an was having an affair she didn't know how much charles loic mila. I was just like a real much of a dick. That injury was didn't realize that lake. Maybe if she just gave diana fucking hug and like talk to her like a human being and like a daughter back maybe she wouldn't be losing her mind like yeah. I was really surprised. I was like girl. It'd be one thing if you don't care but it seems just really ignorant then. We could see more with edward in an andrew is her favorite so that i would say. Hopefully they'll feed more into that in the following season but again as i mentioned earlier just political intrigue i really wish they had a little bit more about ireland because we saw the whole bombing. There's mountbatten so we saw a little bit of influence. Ira but we didn't get too much into that As far as stature in the relationship of that but after remind myself this is not about. This is still the clown. So it's not going to show the whole dilution factor. Quick thoughts say showed enough of her time. What we are. So i would say that this at this season reminded me that the queen is very good at mother. That's not her core competency now. A part of it is that. Why don't you did she. Not no. I don't think she cared to now or new this. You should not like i. i did notice. It was dislike negligence or she just did know these release that she should be checking in on madden to have that conversation Eiffel she also misunderstood how everyone looks at the word. Do i really believe that she thought that charles understood that in just like the queen mother said it. Love is not does not factor into this. It's about and. I do think that she underestimated charles ability to do that. I would have liked more. Time with margaret More time with margaret mcqueen. I love you know how they could. Those two characters often. In contrast of each other and i love packers season started with the murder of mountbatten. I loved that. I would enjoy that. But the whole thing about charles of great grand great-great-grandfather and camilla's great great grandmother being love in her great ground. Greek mother being a mistress camilla was too much i would. I would have been like you know what we had a rate this curse was not working out for us. I heard it online somewhere where someone said that you know sh should on charles because charles is pretty shitty tendai and he was a shitty first husband but the fact that they hung in there unto they were allowed to be married how many decades later i mean they they met there she no look. I'm not mad. That charles like truly truly truly loved camilla. I'm not a matt leg like clearly clearly. I think two things one as as i don't believe that she loves him as much as he loved her. Not at all not at because you ready to leave her husband like you know. Even before diana's lake. I'm i mean i'm chilling i'm coop. She got married that man why they were supposed to be together and then the other thing is he didn't just because he wanted to be with me he had Treat diana the way. He treated her in order to like get to that. That and so that's my thing is i'm just like i mean there was clear. There's clearly a deep love there. But it's like yacht. Didn't have to go about it late that les everybody grow night. Everybody growing except for diana. Y'all grown the reason. Why charles and camilla work is because camilla knows to play the back seat. She's never gonna be out here. Committee was never gonna be winning any hearts and minds. Plus in diana's fall announcing his diane's fault but what happened to diana was that people fell in love with her in a way that charles so minimize this relationship did to him magically with think biological relationships all we did to him make himself. Nate made him feel minimize. It was the only person who's never done that or so or so. He says yeah absolutely she was. I think a safety zone for him. But it's interesting because as you say. She didn't leave her husband when her husband i guess went on to marry somebody else and they were all friendly and and you know any reality so it seemed like it was a nice little arrangement. Shall we say that they all have in the only person who seem to suffer from it was diana pam. Well it's also because they didn't like really give her a choice like like or they weren't upfront with her until after she had already become disillusioned like it seemed like she really thought she was getting. Its its sansa stark. It exactly where she thinks. She's living out a fairytale. She's getting married to this man shielding the big wedding. She's becoming a princess like all these things and the whole time. It's like what he really wanted was just a to be there. While he continued to have affairs she thought she was getting a family. She she was getting a husband A partner you know. She obviously very much so loved. Her kids and leg wanted to be a mom But like other than that aspect of her life. She didn't get any of the things she thought she was getting by. Marry into that family. That does remind me. I thought it was really interesting to contrast between her. And her mothering. In the queen's mothering not that diana was an out there you know going events and doing her thing and traveling without the children but the importance of seeing the children often enough was pretty much. It showed that they were trying to put it. In contrast with the queen. This is someone who can do both teams and wants to be a mother. Rob queen wanted to be a mother but not in it. You know hands on way off. I'd say the queen is sorta stuck in the victorian errands someway but that's bound to be basically based on her age and what the the more of her time were so. It was interesting to me and i was going to say with that. Asiago is not so much that she didn't want to be. I don't think she knew how to be a modern other. She knew and not even just a modern mother. A mother matz mother like a commoner. Because were honest the way folks reacted to the way diana was parenting was because she was parenting like a commoner. She didn't want to take off for year and leave her infants on behind in he come back talking about some and the baby looking at her. Like new number who it is you know like i don't even know who you are lady And so for her. It's like it's about the position she is the position and i. It's funny because she take the position and forgot to be human being. I'm not talking about the real queen right now to some up the show queen because as as much as clervoy as much as i love libya komen. We're seeing someone who finds it very uncomfortable for the most part to step outside of that role. Who missed go ahead. I was gonna say. I just thought it was really interesting. How it they were very clearly to me. Juxtaposing her against diana and her against margaret thatcher. But in a way that didn't feel like this is women catfight. He in like that. It was just kind of like. Yeah there some obvious differences in how they exhibit womanhood and motherhood and it has to do with you know where they come from And at times it did feel like you know. Elizabeth was made to feel uncomfortable by both because an one how they lead in one how they mothered and presented to the public And so i just thought that was interesting. I i liked that. We got to see some like comparison of women that did it feel like catfight. And i don't think it was ever going to be that tie. You go first. Because i wanted to say was aides also three women at three different points of talk right. I mean this is three of us in some other thing and he like barbara. Badger really loved strong chilled and doesn't like week. According to the crack to her daughter we would have all different. Take on mothering right. And i think that. At the same time diana gets a commoner. Writing motherhood was also central to her view of herself. And i think that if i think back to season one a lot of those things where beat out of elizabeth by her mother and her grandmother who made her ooh secondhand almost every day. You're too young your child but at the same time you're is you're you're the software right. We have what do you do when your grandmother kneels before you says this is how life should be sensual lighter to tell you that the old person must die now. What's the size. That's the law still wanted most epic like narrations of all time. I gotta say yes absolutely right. It was almost impossible for her to mother. The ways that diana did i mean again. I understand ritual. private school. wasn't he was like wisdom every single day. Let's let's be clear but there was still more nurturing. So the closeness there and then margaret thatcher and. I love that she was cooking for you. Don't her her whole cabinet unit with in this small apartment. 'cause number ten season the film's away it's constructive or shown is that you know a lot of it is workspace and then they have this little apartment so imagine a woman in her position. You need to make a caterer and whatever other middle she was making. That was part of her her. I don't wanna say performance. But the way that she showed her entity and as you said tie her favorite was her son who's he quote unquote with strong. Who we all know has been was a mercenary. I mean he has an interesting past two. So it's it depends on the child that was supposed as well and what they viewed the child but yeah very interesting just the backup shannon. Do you know what speech we're talking about. Did you see season one of our son. I've seen okay. Listen because this speech is everything is only two minutes. You got two minutes to give me good. He away. This is oh yeah. She's about to read it now. Dear this little bit. I know how you love your papa. My son and i know you will be as devastating design by this loss but you must put those sentiments to inside now for duty called grief. Your father's death will be felt far and wide. Your people will need your strength and leadership. I have seen three. Great monarchy's broke down through their failure to separate personal indulgences from duty. You must not allow yourself to make similar mistakes and while you on your father. You must also mourn else elizabeth monarch baton for. She has not been replaced by another person. Elizabeth regina to elizabeth's with frequently in conflict with one another. The fact is the crown must win. Must always with honestly no sir if you don't mind. The crown takes precedence. Now mind you had just gotten back to england after immediately hearing about her. Father says she ain't seen the body she just landed. And that was philip. Trying to walk her out and the folks on our play she you know she to captain. Now you gotta hang back. She got to go first. But it's also interesting because that's similar to the letter that charles skits from lord welna fat and yeah the one that pushes him to marry diana and it. I don't know maybe he read the letter wrong when he did the engagement. And then everything from then on with shade lake the frigging interview where he says What is love whatever. Love is maybe and then like i mean. He was getting matching jewelry for him camilla before his wedding day. Like all the wrong listened and it goes back to what you said earlier. though it wouldn't have been so bad. Charles not finish it. But i might occur understood it if charles was also nineteen years old at the time charles was a grown ass man with a good star on a good pension if he was a work in person. What are you doing sir. So all of that is the thing about. Charles is that charles is understanding of duty is and then it has to always be put up against how much attention charles gets. I don't think. And i think the one thing that could loophole diana that she probably couldn't hear because it stomachs into miller was that charles has to be the force like there is no nothing else. That's the only way charles knows how to have someone in his latin and his mother tells a bat in the last episode liking that episode tune at christmas where she cousins Diana like stop being a year old child being adult. And this is the world you. It's wannabe king advocate. This marriage has esther also say this now the other problem and it just hit me with what you said. Tie the difference. Between elizabeth becoming queen and charles preparing become king is all as season one. We king george. What is he doing. He is mentoring little bit. He is mentoring his daughter. He is teaching her how he reigns the responsibility that goes in it so she sees the pomp but she also sees the dirt down and dirty in the weeds. Elizabeth never does that charles so all he sees as the pomp and yadda ration- without the ba- the behind the scenes work. Yeah and then. Also it's a it's a man who feels the need to have to be number one while Feeling he's always number two so he's constantly wanting to be treated like he's number one because of the fact that he's not so he expects everybody to treat Like number one because his mother does not and again that goes back to the mentoring like mentoring him to be the next one like he would feel that all the time i mean th. That's the whole episode. The favorite now that he's like i don't have a favorite workers and lay man is late. Sure you don't hear that is not charles. That also reminds me. I forgot the second part of my point. I just remembered it. The other thing is that elizabeth Read her grandmother's letter and miss the entire fucking point. The point wasn't a close yourself off to people. She was warning her against what her uncle did. That landed her as in the monarchy to begin with. And i feel like elizabeth just didn't catch that. I'm talking about you ain't shit uncle and just said okay. This is everything. I'm shutting off to everybody except for phillip into philip. Got on her nerves right. I think the other thing is that charles. Is this really bad position now. The one respondents parents like it both have to deal with. Yeah biller is that if you think about that though. That's where uncle mountbatten came in and part of philip in a way issues that he is having charles was because mountbatten was his father. Philip's father figure because he didn't have that in his dad and then after a while if he literally says him transfer feelings over to charl and then after a while neither of them have him so it felt like you said neither of Child whose parents were quite keen on him and then the very person who was keen on charles was the person who philip loved and then the now so in a way i i still feel bad for charles their bits of that you have to fill from even though i know we're supposed to feel bad then. We always do in reality based on what happened but nobody liked him. Except for this person. And i don't mean camilla. I mean mountbatten then camilla but after mountbatten was gone. Of course he's gonna clean to kamilo the more especially because mountbatten died exactly. And i think that there are very few people in trials life who actually give him the kind of love that he wants versus the kind of love that he needs like when he in an had that heart to heart. Hugh totally missed the point here to ride. Here's explainable and to join me in making fun of this gift ams like i'm gonna tell you what no one else wants to tell you. And he doesn't know how to deal with true. That comes activists. He doesn't like totally series another. We're not talking about margaret nava. Just a bag to margaret margaret. Makes this comment. Although we don't see margaret mothering. Barbara mason's comment. i think it was. It was birthday party that win. They had their trickle pose. The pitcher margaret was actually hugging her baby but owning our job like he was a bomb. Core is abyss she. She just can't get his mother being right. Nobody she's always everybody's the i mean. I think we'll see more of it next season With diana but lay all of these people might no wonder your children are horrible. I rethink will one of them. I don't really single one alone. yeah again. The favourite episode dow. I think that was one of my favorites. Because i was just like all of these motherfuckers are a harpole favorite child. They've they're they've all made their favorite child like horrible because of how they lay both night. Treat the favorite child and give them everything and then treat the other children by giving them nothing like everyone's competing so like mom and dad's affection. My god every single one of them like you you taking a perfectly good human and run them margaret. We don't know they were perfectly good. They were actually asia. Take the lead on mrs thatcher. Because question for you. Asia was it better in real life or worse in real life in your opinion than tadic. Portrayed that you're the crown their relationship or just a general award you general characterization characterization i i wanna say it was on par. Actually they made that. You're a little bit nicer than again. Coming from a background of someone who you know just spoiler alert was not found a fond of her politics. I say they humanized her. She's not bad at all. i just and again i mean bachelor had to deal with a lot of sexism etc and being in her position but you know her relationship with reagan and a lot of other things the miners strike etc which they showed highlight some of that behavior which people still remember her for in the bag way. So they gillian. Anderson makes anybody look. Let's just say that facs hashtag it was. It was so it was worth things. Whereas like ooh maggie yoyo reaches exceeding your grass. You china comfort thrown. But you better not missed and you kinda missed. You missed but i get that that whole going to see the family and then black that i know again. We don't know what happened. But that felt real like something that could happen because class distinctions are so clear and it does not even that margaret like some upper upper class family. She's coming from more of a working class situation. Yes you went to oxford etcetera but at the same time class. Oh distinct in the uk. Even though people pretending that it's not even they visit is all at once that anyone even someone who say was coming from like i don't know. Kate middleton background who was raised in. That would still best buy best the pinnacles so they would still find it challenging. So i would absolutely. I think that was a perfect way to right margaret thatcher. Coming into the situation. The royals looking at them. Like who are these folks. you know they just. They're just country people with money. I thought was really interesting. Because then that is kind of underscored in the episode where we find out about the folks in the mental institution. Yes the the real the the. This is two part of the story. The cousins on the The queen mother's side of the family now so that was interesting. Because i was like oh late. They're they're basically telling us like they. They're they're literally inbred. Hicks inbred hicks with enough money to late. Put those people away somewhere and falsified their deaths in the official family records. And it's horrifying. And i thought it was interesting. That they wrote margaret is the one who was really mortified by and then to find out how. You didn't even need to do this because it wouldn't have affected that line of the family but to show that any hint of any imperfection could damage the crown. Well and like they said at this point to gain. The crown has started to lose its luster and folks was looking for any reason to discredit and disbanded at that point. So of course. They're trying to eat that shit hidden and once got about this. The other. The other thing about trawls rhino. We'd be capable dom in really hits me there. Charles's never had to sacrifice is in the way that His parents in waited his mother. It is had right like they really understand what it means to really have sacrifice for this world that he will just walk into. And i think that that's one thing. I think that the other thing is about margaret thatcher as being a horrible horrible human. That the episode about part-time stand-down maggie margaret down a. What was the song that was played in the episode. Right stand down down just really really shows really tells us is an indictment of of that time and it shows you how this how the data did not leaving the world that the rest of us were living and how she held out and did all of these shenanigans. Just just to have one particular word like job. I the thing that i really like about this season with really does show you. What leadership means in several different way. How do you should get to the wrong alive time. And who suffers. And i think biggest civically about the episode which the man lost his job. Yeah the cruelly garden her feelings he was like you do my guess. I'll michael. yeah then. Yeah that was that pissed. Me off on my. He sat up here twenty four hours toe. John motherfuckers not to do this out there. You throw him under the bus. I was so mad and he went on to have a really successful career after that as a novelist. But it was. You know for the using this person as won't escape bold if you will someone who had been loyal who have been trying to see you right like threw my man under the charlie for real and we're super up about it. They were like we need escape. Oh it's be you sorry case confused about what was happening. We ain't even gas like you. Just don't tell you about ground you it's you ask for your was nord. The note duly noted. You didn't notice it hard enough this out. So we gotta get ready dignified. That was one of those things that they said was slightly exaggerated ford. The show back in real life might have not left by. He might have been the one who left. They didn't exactly kick them out then. You always said that he wasn't the one who you know. Spread the information but mean it works either like if he he like fucking. I'm out or if he gave goto both ways. Were just as powerful to me. But especially that moment where his life publishers. Why don't you work in the fucking palace. You ain't got no stories. And he was like no. I would never never. Oh and i'm sorry to felix are a correspondent if he listens to this. I'm ni netflix. Ix and the purdue the casting directors for the crown not to cast british folks who can't affected affected decent. New york accent has pasha. Yeah the mail was came out my look like i'm been harlech. They tries bless their hearts. Oh i like. Diana is so beloved because she hangs out with the blacks except they don't wanna we do. I did not like the only part. I really did not appreciate ross in australia. And the way they Filmed and blocked the hakka being performed. So we're nightmare or something. I did not like over her. Was it over her throwing up. I think it may have been a nightmare. Like when i first thought when i first saw it i thought it was. She was having a nightmare instead of just being four. Yeah yeah. I didn't like that. I wasn't a fan of that either. I was i was like i didn't need those things jokes. The pose together lay especially because the australia trip. You know so much of it was the people who are falling in love with her and all that kind of stuff and like her very much being fawned over by all these white folks and then like the few people color like them doing their traditional thing and all of a sudden it becomes like it come. Nightmare is wanting came across his predatory which is not would it is so i i did not like. Yeah is a hacker or hopper hacker hacker with the okay. Because i would hate to be that person. Yeah i didn't like the predatory nation. I really didn't Yeah that was the i would say for me. That's the only low of the season. What about you guys. Were there any other lows for you. Can't really compare it to anything because this is my first. You gotta go back and watch the others a really good awkward table so yes. He's a one episode. Two's amazing best. Howard i'm i'm really like i heard new synthetic mean today and i was like is not going to let any of her stuff beyond the crown that which was the other thing i was waiting for. Looking to dramatize 'cause no state you know they're gonna portray like the the the hero 'cause you know they're going to be late. Let's talk about. Let's talk about how the royal family is racist on the megan season. So i'm like i. I think need these as i care about like diana and meghan might. That's it like this is what i'm here for I guess my yeah. My only thing was. I was just like i didn't know the queen was glues. I thought everybody degree at that. They showed margaret thatcher in a way. That was like you know you got enough of like where she was coming from but also she was fucked out like she she didn't she didn't value other women she thought she was like some sort of exception A end in the end and everything else about like the might of britain which is so stupid like even the whole falklands Message on one point. I was like what are the fucking falklands i. I don't understand like military base. Like why are we might make some oldest islands as though should happened on them. Like why are we going to fucking war over them. This is stupid. And he's like all about like we must retained the empire lake basically what it is. They have these you saw show. He was trying to piece out. And it's like if you hadn't brought that charismatic bitch. We might succeed site her. He's like and i can tell you don't like her either. I was like you are. We almost got away from u s. If it wasn't for that mainland princess your dogs bowl valley. So i struggled with certain things this season. I wanted to see more of margaret. I i i feel for her as this royal without a. I don't know. I feel like she's always disconnected and at the same time connected. Your united talked about margaret's relationship with elizabeth than we've had this conversation you least once a year but i would like to see more of her more of her. We know beings are coming for her younger thing. That really tripped me out with the episode. When the guy broke into coons bedroo- right. Mike quite that fagin fagin. That was a long episodes. And i love the actor who plays in. I everything he does. I'm good with. I think he's phenomenal. But that felt the episode's district on long but that that was just me. It was a slow episode for sure for sure like when it took a while to get rolling but when you realize i'm a broken twice the security they're errantly now wrong guy plays now and he ran. He's like a reasons you'll places ghetto found. Busby power added jobs. You know you could help. This console wasn't free when the was walk. Factor job minding. What did it feel like a therapy session for the queen at one i wouldn't really do and that's when she likes to go to the bathroom. No y'all on y'all are not conversation 'cause she's clearly gonna call and you got more things to say to bag archer the world is. He ran her fulfill here. That many leaf the get That was a slow episode with a really good. Like i so again. This my first season there were so many like this. You really look maggotty. gone on. she'll let me grab her pearls what they probably fake anyway. Keep them right. I mean let me not messages crumble. And my eight zero. Did you have any particular episode point a season. it was just like No i again. I'm all about the guest actors so they had. Tom burke is that. would you call them. Clergyman friend of margaret's and i really like that interplay. But as tai said. Because this helena bonham carter is well in margaret. Lived in interesting why it would have been funded a bit more about what was going on with her. It was refreshing to see insights into therapy. Of course we really don't know happen in her therapy sessions but that they showed her going to therapy and who does remember who she was talking to about her depression in who from the family which family member was she. Talking to. Charles was us. Yes so that was really interesting to see well. Because that's that's something that maybe potentially charles doing with therapy for himself. So they have that. Those kinds of conversations on the side of those not quite main characters lives intriguing and tom burke i'm just like like i'm like pause everything i did not realize that was tom burke i tom burtt he looks low difference yes he let worn down with. The man is a looker. But yes in this. Is that my boom yes there. There's to tears. And i'm like he was not looking musketeer ready. I is that facial hair. But yes yes i guess. I'm worried with the margaret story. Line is because they're already set up her cancer in her like her lung issues and my fears when we jumped do the time jump next season. We're gonna be. We're gonna miss out on like critical aspects of her story. I hope i get the sense that maybe what happened to help it. Who's playing next season. I forgot don't see todd. Do remember crowns. He's lucky enough. I'm looking at five okay. Let's talk marry bill. i'm in. I'm ready for elizabeth becky. That's my girl. So imelda staunton. I'll yeah he'll is was becky lee manzo. A great actress and i could see her as margaret. Absolutely she was in malefic apparently a lot more from some films and earlier work that she did but beautiful like this brilliant i can. I can see her. Doing a great mark grabs the highest payroll will be playing prince villa. Yes he will be. Oh the fact that we are dominant will be in final talks to play prince. Charles they said how these two fine from that. I actually found offensive. They gotta make up for the fact that they made him seemed like a piece of shit and nathan. What are your bone prince charles. We'll have a fine man. Let you you find fine. I rebuke it. I'm not sure about that. But okay we'll see i love. I love this dude. Who plays him that actor What do i know he was just in Emma period Like the minute. I saw him i was. I know this more me motherfucker. Who is he. Gonna carl's josh o'connor they know how to make. But i mean he is good looking they do. They did a good job and making him. Look more charles's if you would so dominic west can you I kept saying jobs. Look like when real loud. Diana held long horse them mouna. Maybe maybe yeah. I wanna else was he. He's he's always smarmy in everything though. Who dominic west. No on your honor Yeah mainly know him from Emma he's just so a british awkward. i love it. Can we talk about the fashion for a second. I'm sarah us with the fashion. I totally they decided to do like my own to diana for For thanksgiving from thanksgiving outfit. I was like i was mixing patterns and like sweater dresses and it was like a eating. And i'm like how. Because i i was reading up so much on the fashion i like how the designer does it just like recreate the looks but like takes inspiration from the looks and then like i just thought that was really dope and like her like a roller skating around the palace and leg you know. Oh my gosh she when she saying and did that video for charles. I was phantom of the opera wears the grinch cringe. Who cringe that was like. She looks gorgeous. Everything might they. They put her in. She was adorable. She was gorgeous when she started to get a little fashion sense on that australia trip and everything i was just like oh my god like yeah i. I was immediately. Lake charles is not gonna like this. She looks to cue. They shouted her name. This is not gonna go well. How different they work. She couldn't do anything right. So you know. The performance was that that little ballet performance to god. God everything and that's how it was. Billy joel wasn't elton down. It was really go and it just felt like they say billy joel which i never understand but i think that would feel but i hear that a lot from my and my people but yes it you just. They were not on. The same page was more pop. Culture in fee was not with more organic and country. The but imagine someone doing something like that for you and then you have that much we both for it and you don't even appreciate the love the concern that was put into the effort so painful understand even being embarrassed. 'cause i might be embarrassed. Because that's putting attention on me as well but just the vileness with which he reacted was just not necessary if others have same level over volkswagen Were the other. You can be revolved. But then they got other people expect them to. Just dial in if you like. Yeah she's horrible and he allow what. What's the bottom other. people didn't see it. I mean we'll camilla. i mean. I don't even think if when we think about how camilla reacted she didn't see it. She just knew that. Like look you may not like how outwardly affectionate she is. But i mean you know the deal. You can't get out of this and it's not like she's a she's not like she's a terrible person was like also i saw. I think you know before the marriage kamilo was just like. Oh yeah late. This needs to happen like i'm not getting my marriage and like you know it just is what it is and even if i get but even if i did i'm a divorce say and that's exactly what caused your uncle to have to give up the throne. Are you ready to do that to do. I want you to do that. And then you add to it the diana of it all you know so like then when she realizes that diana is diana is it's like a we definitely can't do this because they will hate me like she's young she's vibrant. She's clearly at least in front of the cameras. Affectionate and in love with you like i will never be able to survive the press if this happens like you know like while. I also think that she just wasn't as charles charles was with her. I think she was also like smart enough to realize. I will never be diana even trying. I do wonder if in pre before we wrap up. I wanna get predictions for next season because one of the things. I wonder if we do get the in the next few seasons. If we get to death of margaret she comes after elizabeth for allowing the future king of england to divorce. Say when asked the very reason their uncle had to give up. The throne was to be with divorce. Say i that everybody's divorced help so we knew have a who andrew divorce princess and divorced margaret of what you have your family increasingly the worst thing you realize that it's okay that they can still you know not have to give up their position so that it all added up right. I'm just wondering if though dramatize it because she was begging to be with her dude back in season. One and liz like if i as your sister. Yes but as your queen now. I wonder if it'll be the opposite because i feel like so many people. This season were late. Do you gotta you gotta let people be happy. That's what's really holding us back. And i'm sorry. I think some abortion. Banak the people in the white of duty a man pass by like diana really brought it to a point where people are like. You know you kinda you have to. You have to change the way you do things because like look at her. She doesn't do anything that you're quote unquote supposed to do. And everyone loves her. In spite of in spite of her not doing what you do and because she's royalty she's a she's touchable. She's relatable she someone who's above them but who feels like they can come to empathize. Really understand what they go through. And that's what the royal family never caught onto just well maybe are catching onto it now like decades later and you know you say better late than never but then like who i forget which one of you said it. They're so stuck in. Being victorian forgot how to be human now about season. Three win explosion was in the coal mining town or the runner de robot. A living habitat an opportunity. Then to be Right ed she doesn't it people. This was you missed the grand opportunity and one of the things that i just keep thinking about in the leading up to what we know. It's coming in terms of diana is our queen. They still got it while. And i've the only time we've seen them get this riot is when harry left. I think it's because he was like i'm out it. Did they found out. But i don't think that this is the lesson that they have truly learn to. Harry is that with when people are really unhappy. It's all the crown will survive if you bet them doing needs to be done but i don't think the lesson that they just aren't into recently and i think that's good. Their hand was for. I think they did in some ways. I mean this is something you revisit lessons in life. But the sheer fact that charles and camilla mary and i think they learned by then that to me after all of the struggle that they were able to do that and they're pretty well regarded and not miss the beaten royal duties show some level learning. Because if they hadn't learned. I think they would have had an issue with a bigger issue with the Harry marrying meghan. So maybe the lesson wasn't finally learned but bits of it has been a crew overtime. Well gonna would. They have had his. Would they have had a larger issue. Because harry isn't the air. I mean principally in got four airs and probably a couple more bacon mean harry marry whoever he marries a big deal unless william has no tail well with unless who she is an american it my like. There's so many things that were not done before she came she's not a class quote unquote level. Yes what is their uncle married. This woman in the whole family for her been but this is someone who's completely not in their stratosphere so to speak so they've learned something i mean i don't know i'm just like they. Something is still not. I thought they had learned from the day in a situation but the megan situation told me that they had not where man they clearly have not fully learned probably not but from the perspective of anything until you. The lesson has to come in increments and this kind of lesson. If you're talking about a dynasty and the family that is used to having a certain level of you know people come to them expectations etc. The lesson isn't maybe learned the way they need to have learned but they definitely learn some bits around along the lines way. There's just no way like obviously without diana you wouldn't have had making but like little other lessons learned along the way i say and i'm not a royalist forever but like a fan per se but i really do think we have to give them some level of credit but you know i agreed to give them. Some number prayer also seemed that kerry is wise. And he's he knows his family. Well he knows when push. And i think that he did a lot to put them on the hook to get what he wanted. I would agree with that absolutely any final thoughts. I'm so excited i mike. I'm in for the next probably however couple seasons because this is actually should i know i am excited to see what what comes i would. I really am interested. In diana funeral episodes. I mean people. Notice that i have a master's degree and theological studying so Events like that tend to grab my attention so. I'm really interested in comparing all of the royals that you see in coach interesting about your asura. I'm just putting much what tie in center says the things that we've pretty much lived through or remember exactly where i was when they announced the diana pass. I remember visiting the memorial living in uk. And i also interested in whole you know kate and will who will be playing them and how big that wedding was almost like guy so it just. It's gonna be fun. We'll see how much they'll say is exaggerated versus. You know what really went on the more. I think about the. Yeah anyway. Well thanks everyone for joining me. I appreciate it. We'll be back for season.