9 Episode results for "Emma Journalist"
The invisible border
"A warning that today's episode features some graphic descriptions of violence near the top. And the bottom of this first half. There's no violence after the break. If you WANNA avoid it altogether let's begin Tonight believe it or not the United Kingdom them will officially leave the European Union. It happens at eleven o'clock London time. Brexit is happening. We have covered brexit backwards and forwards. On today explained we've talked about trade and immigration an ideology and it's all been sort of abstract very political but on the show today our reporter Naughton Hassenfeld is going to take us to a place where you can actually see what brexit might do with your own eyes. Yeah and In the interest of minimizing my carbon footprint. I got someone closer to go for me. My Name Is Leona O. Natal and Emma journalist from Northern Ireland Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom Ingram but it shares a border with the independent country of Ireland to the south. I am on the border between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland is just decide dairy. It's a very very very busy. Ruled of pulled to the side of the road here. there's literally hundreds of cars going up ongoing. Pass me here right now. Since both the United Kingdom and Ireland are in the European Union. That border is barely noticeable but after tonight while the country of Ireland will still be in the EU things. Start to get complicated at the border brags that has posed particularly difficult and genetic problem for US rex. It could bring checkpoints police the military. But that's nothing new for this border. When you say the border the Northern Irish border people think They Hark back to those days when the refused military reinstallation where the British army would be their you know their checkpoints and stuff I got there is nothing like that night at the moment as something. That's kind of forgotten a bite white almost as an invisible border when I was growing up Here beside the border you know you had approaches the border huge military installations you know corrugated iron wolves heavily-fortified full of soldiers armed soldiers. So sometimes your car will be pulled on. Everybody would be taken out of the car. The car would be searched for guns and ammunition and all that kind of stuff these military installations were shot at. They were bombed armed. You're always taking your life in your hands stopping them. When you re possums particularly with children on the car it was quite a terrifying experience this peaceful spot where Leona is sitting right now? Thirty years ago it was a living nightmare and nineteen ninety. Patsy Glaspie was a a young father the IRA the Irish. Republican Army were targetting particle because he worked in a British Army station in here and there. They held his wife and his children hostage Told Patsy to get on his van driver to the British Army station here the checkpoint appoint on on this that. He doesn't do that that they would should has wife and his children. This is patsies wife Kathleen you. He was chained to the driver's seat. And the steering wheel of that at is loaded with twelve hundred pounds of explosives and he was made to Dr Divide to the army checkpoint. Kosh Quan had tamed to shut a warning and I was told by one of the soldiers. TATION faith that they had run boys. I'm loaded run and a bomb was detonated by remote control control and PAT. Sue was blown to pieces. What five soldiers? Patsy was actually identified Santa Fe by a pace of Grey's zip attached tip piece of the woollen Cardigan under better flesh to this day. Kathleen Remembers Patsy on the border. I'm sitting here actually across the road from the memorial parts. Kathleen leaves floors. I can see them sitting here socialist flyers every every week there for her patsy Brexit. Isn't it just bringing these memories back. It actually might disrupt this hard-fought piece I know from speaking to desert and Republicans in the past that should anti structure go up on the border. Anna can of even a sign that says this is the border they will blow it up anyone who puts the life of a customs officer at risk. They will need police protection. The a police are them become a target as well as a customs officer after our tax on them the army might be brought back to protect the police. Protect the customs officer. And then we're back in the nineteen and seventies nineteen eighties Northern Ireland. We have a very delicate peace hero. Northern Ireland anything could just put it over the edge. Peace in Northern Ireland isn't just delicate it took decades of civilian uprisings military crackdowns and brutal terrorist campaigns to reach this point. Thousands of people died in the process and the peace deal that created. This invisible. Border was an almost impossible. Balancing Act Ireland was part of the British Empire Open till the beginning of the twentieth century. And this was not a situation Asian which was desired by the majority of people in Ireland. Susan McKay is an author and journalist from Londonderry in Northern Ireland people. They're often call it. Dairy there was a smaller. All are Protestant minority concentrated in the northeast of Ireland which did not want to be part of a United Ireland so in nineteen twenty one. Ireland was partitioned mission. South was independent. While the north remained part of the United Kingdom a border was purged across the country and it's an extraordinary border zigzags all over the place that cuts off one county donegal practically from the rest of the Republic of Ireland divides villages divides hoses is. It divides people's farms. This has been denied a small rather old fashioned town and county turtle on one of the six northeastern counties of Ireland which are handled underbidding rule the situation the north. was that the unionists. who were those who were loyal to Britain? Set up the northern station. Such a way that outs Catholics and nationalists could really have no par Kuh third. The people of this little town are nationally. That is to say they are in favor of unity with the rest of Ireland and against being part of one third is unionist which means favouring rule and the partition of Ireland. But the tone is controlled control by that unionist minority and run shortly in there. So the upshot of this gerrymandering is that was called was that the Catholic population lived in extremely namely disadvantaged circumstances in crowded areas. They didn't of par their unemployment was very high and they were extremely unhappy about the state in the nineteen sixties. Things changed with the advent of television and with the advent of Second Level Education for larger numbers of people the Civil Rights Movement Rosa hosing issues and employment issues and it was met by the northern state with a very violent response civil rights protests against alleged discriminations were dotted at first as noble than a nuisance but as they continue became more insistent and extreme petrol-bomb ominously replaced stones. The main weapons. This was the beginning of what people call the troubles nationalists and Republicans fighting against unionists loyalists or British troops and regular people caught in the middle into the middle of that that scenario the IRA the Irish Republican Army begun to build up forces that was very much acceleration in January. Nine hundred seventy two bloody. He's someday occurred on. That was a notorious massacre of innocent civil rights marchers by a British regiment called the paratroopers. Thirteen people were killed. None of them more armed so a lot of people started to join the IRA at that point you had appalling incidents including bloody Friday when the IRA planted. There's a lot of bombs in the shopping. Streets of Belfast and discriminatory killing civilians on that day. Belfast attacked with twenty seven bombs in one afternoon nine died and over one hundred thirty injured and Jihad loyalists going into collusion with renegade members of the British security forces killing in Catholic in isolated areas or on the contrary and nine hundred eighty one. The British government tried to remove political stasis basis from IRA prisoners and as a result the. Ira Prisoners went on hunger. Strike and Margaret Thatcher refused to relent crime. I'm crying because it is not political. It is crime. No question of political status. By the time a negotiation was reached ten ham of them had died and by the early years of the nineteen nineties. The people of Northern Orange were just completely approaching despair Susan you covered the troubles as a reporter. What was that experience like well? Being a reporter during the conflict meant meant going to a lot of funerals that meant attending a lot of scenes are very violent incidents had happened meant talking to people who are in a state of shock and grief and I and many journalists like me had to go to people's houses the morning after somebody had been cuddled and do interviews with bereaved families and you've been following up with some of them. Yeah I went back to many of the families that I had. I met when they were first bereaved. They're all very powerful and very moving but a few of them did particularly stick in my mind One of them was the story of James Morgan which was told by his mother. Philomena James was he was a sixteen year old. It's just like any other normal happy. Go lucky sixteen year old so in that day James went to meet his friend Nielsen but maybe for two to three hundred yards up throat. He never made it. He was picked up on the bottom Ryan heads. The Ham killed on the very demand. Anonima pet waited to her. Who was when we looked for than a detective arrived? tailless els Phil that's where I got the news from troubles would seem to be far from here. Never even entered her hands that something like this could happen in a small village but it did. It changed things forever. James Morgan was murdered by loyalists and nine hundred ninety seven near his home in the mountains of Mourne I wanted to go with. The judge said is utterly sectarian it was more deferred religion for a long time after it was very nervous because I could sleep the rest of the boys role would they picked up with the meet. The wrong person. Would they go down a road that you didn't want them to go down in fodders used is to say if you've got a good day. Take on if she can laugh. Laugh announced with took his advice in those people's lives were ruined on people had to come to terms with immense pain on many many eight people are still struggling without paying somehow after all that pain both sides tides made peace in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight now. Brexit might make it more in a minute on today explained Eh everyone so I know you know all about vox podcast. 'cause I talk about them all the time you listen to one right now. I know you know about Boxes Netflix. Show Oh explain but vox is also just get into the regular like narrative. TV Game Right now. You can find a show called little America on Apple. TV plus take only in America tax. After you see the second place only in America can such a part of the game exist face. Ace Board Hamburgers cheeseburgers baking. Chilli cheese everything. On top of America. America comes from the people who brought you the big sick and master of none Intel's eight extraordinary very true stories of immigrants coming to America people from Syria. Uganda Mexico Nigeria. These stories are funny. Romantic their heartfelt and inspiring at who couldn't use a little bit of that right now. Little America is live. Now you can find it on the apple. TV APP or go straight to TV DOT APPLE DOT COM. The show is called little America eight episodes. Check them out now now. Beneath The pyramid anti of Stolberg Stolberg Castle buildings. The final scenes of this extraordinary political drama or about to be acted out April tenth. Nineteen Ninety eight Belfast. Northern Ireland hours passed a midnight deadline. Dawn broken storms with the deadline for agreement weld passed and the chances of a deal emerging seemingly slim. It's Good Friday the most Zomba Day on the calendar for both Catholics and Protestants. It's all about death sacrifice and the anticipation of rebirth. It was a going feeling of anticipation as the conviction grew that there were with the same history in the making. All parties have been invited. The largely Protestant unionists along with hardline loyalist groups and the largely Catholic what nationalist along with hardline Republican groups. The mood here at stolen veered almost by the hour between confidence that a deal was tantalizingly close to fears that these talks even as the finish line loomed into sites could still stumbled David Trimble. Head of the Ulster Unionist Party. We see this as laying during the foundations for a healthy vibrant democracy to replace the stagnation frustration and policies of the last three decades. Gerry Adams Adams head of the political wing of the Irish Republican Army. These negotiations instruments which resulted from them are part of our collective verney from the failures of the past towards the future together as as day stretches into evening the mediator former. US Senator. George Mitchell makes an announcement announcement almost a century in the making. I'm pleased to announce that the two governments and political parties of Northern Ireland reached agreement even after generation of struggle. I think many in the Republican Movement said look. It's time to cash in our chips. donoughue battling international relations nations Dublin City University. They had entered a situation of what you might call a mutually hurting stalemate where you know. They weren't going to achieve their objectives objectives through force but neither could the British government impose its authority by force either so they came up with a compromise with two parts. One was is the relationships within Northern Ireland. The power relationships the deal promise that nationalists and unionists would always be represented in northern. Ireland's government both outsides compromise. But got something and what they got was to share power within Northern Ireland based on power-sharing part to the bigger picture on the one hand it promised I missed that Northern Ireland would stay part of the United Kingdom but on the other hand there was a provision for what's called a border poll meaning that at any point in the future there could be referendum where the people of Northern Ireland would vote on whether to join a united Ireland or as British Prime Minister. Tony Blair put it. Those who believe in the United Ireland can make that case now by persuasion not violence or threats and if they voted in favor of United Ireland the British government was duty bound to legislate for it it. It was almost as if the deal was saying something different to each side for unionists. This deal was ideally the end but for nationalists they would never have agreed to it if they had being sold it as an end in itself so certainly was presented as a stepping stone for one side. The deal affirmed that Northern Ireland was a permanent part of the United Kingdom for for the other side. The door was open for Northern Ireland to join the rest of Ireland. Everybody gets a little bit of what they want. Nobody gets everything but everybody gets enough to sell it to their supporters. It was kind of confusing but that was by design. The term that they use was constructive. Ambiguity you try and massage the unpalatable eligible details to a certain degree when people are signing up to something but ultimately then you need to inject the money changed institutions very quickly afterwards so so that people don't have time to go back and have this so-called buyer's remorse. There was no perfect solution to the issue of the border. So the plan sidestepped. It hoping the problem problem might improve with time. The miracle of the Good Friday Agreement is that it's not as is often touted a conflict resolution situation this is conflict management management. We haven't in a sense dismantle. The sectarian mindsets sets that exist in Northern Ireland. Only the guns have been put aside but not the divisive mentalities and that's of course evident to anybody who visits Northern Ireland and the all these different things institutional institutional change constitutional. You still have a problem of attitudes. Not Having changed even in Belfast. For example the largest city there are collaborators upon on kilometers of walls which divide both communities most were built during the travels but some have gone up even since the peace agreement. If you are from one community you can spend your your entire life growing up with a meeting or having a serious conversation with somebody. From the other community. Ninety percent of Northern Ireland students study exclusively with members of their community you get employed into different area re different newspapers. You play different. Sports so north remains very divided. What the Good Friday Agreement did is static regulated the conflict in such a way that people didn't feel it was worthwhile killing each other to resolve it all the while the northern the Irish border has remained almost invisible? It's want that to fight farms. It divides families. It's natural border. And what the Good Friday Agreement agrees managed to do was to make that border invisible. And what Brexit has done is it has reintroduced the threat of a visible boarder back on the island of one. That would be what they call a hard border customs posts security. And that's something that of course everybody who was involved in the Good Friday Agreement is trying to prevent tonight's brexit deadline doesn't say much about what the deal will look like in practice it's symbolism the real negotiations are still yet to take place and when the trade agreement is negotiated. The king will have to make a choice the UK is going to have to figure throughout its trade borders all over again and it's talking about drawing one in the Irish sea which more or less allows for continuing free trade within the island of Ireland but a factor border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. This trade border would split a country Northern Ireland on one side and the rest of the UK on the other but the other option could be even riskier option to would risk undoing the Good Friday agreement by rebuilding the land border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. That doc border between North and south would become the international border between the European Union and the United Kingdom and it will have to be policed it would be visible and the history of art and suggests that once once you have a visible border it becomes a target. Then you'll have to have reinforcements to defend from attack and you end in an escalating situation which leads to widespread conflict conflict. The history of the troubles makes the risk of a rebuilt land border clear but for unionists in Northern Ireland. Border in the Irish Sea could be dangerous to the problem for people from that perspective. who were by far? The majority of the people who did vote for breaks here is that it throws up the possibility that the United Kingdom itself will not altogether Ben. Lowery edits the unionist leaning Belfast. Newsletter this is a massive change the impact of being edged out of the economic territory territory of your own nation is a very serious one but for Ben it's not a shocking result. Very many people in England when put to the test are not bothered in the at least at the prospect of Northern Ireland leaving and that is something that must concentrate the minds of those of us unionists to think carefully about what the future means a twenty nineteen in poll found that among pro brexit English. Voters almost three-quarters said they didn't care if brexit led to the breakup of the UK and eighty percent said that brexit is worth worth it even if it unravels the peace process in Northern Ireland as those in Northern Ireland the arguments in favor of exit from Northern Ireland perspective are that the European in Union is a fundamentally incoherent system that it tries to many things that are the preserve of the nation state. Essentially the same argument made by the rest of Britain that a nation should make choices for itself think of the person in Northern Ireland to think of themselves as part of the United Kingdom who doesn't think about it very much watch but then accepts that when the nation has decided to move on a major constitutional matter then we as an integral part of that nation. Shen should move with it. I think the simple truth is that because it all happened relatively quickly. I don't think a lot of thought was given to to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland so brexit's left unionists with a lot of questions. What do we do if England and the rest of the UK don't want northern Orland? What do we do if independence is not feasible? And what do we do. If people in the Republic of Ireland don't want Northern Ireland. You know we could just be this unwanted place. That's in limbo forever. Those are genuine concerns coming from a guy who was once bullish on Brexit. If you'd asked me ten years ago I was a big supporter of Brexit. Because I thought that the cultural gulf between the United Kingdom and the mainland Europe was too great Unin theory. It's still seems to have a lot of sense to it. But in practice it would be problematic on potentially disastrous brexit. Just doesn't have a good solution that satisfies everyone for most people. The best solution was exactly the way things were attentive. Fragile status quo and Danika Obama says that was the miracle of the Good Friday Agreement. The whole idea of the Good Friday agreement was to postpone boned constitutional issue for at least generation. Let's get people of different political aspirations working together for a generation or two and then when they're used is to working together within Northern Ireland then we can delicately put the question if a majority suggests that will happen thus we would maybe having a united Ireland and what Brexit did is that it it refocused attention on the constitutional issue and all that work that had been put into de emphasizing the border de emphasizing sovereignty de emphasizing constitutional questions dot was now back front and center of practical politics that de-emphasis seemed to be working in a recent survey half of the people in Northern Ireland considered themselves to be neither unionist nor nationalist and the younger they were the more neutral. They got the younger generation Shindo from member. What the conflict like I mean I? I'm a professor as I said in the university I have twenty-something students in front of me it's just remarkable it makes me feel of course incredibly old that they don't remember a conflict in Northern Ireland. I guess the fear is that as you have generation nation who don't know the price of peace who haven't felt the heart and the devastation the conflict and calls that this could be thrown away so certainly piece is not take for granted. The Good Friday Agreement is in many respects a miraculous achievement. I think what's so miraculous here is how rare it is that conflicts like this get resolved. Diplomatically without one side just surrendering think about what something something like. This would mean for Israel Palestine India Pakistan or even Ukraine and Russia. I know none of these conflict is exactly like the other. And even northern Northern Ireland's case the peace plan didn't solve everything but the miracle here is two sides that were at each other's throats for almost a century actually came together They talked they decided on a fragile peace. And it actually worked and then people forgot Explained reporter hasn't felt thanks to Susan. McKay who allowed us to use the audio she recorded Kathleen. Gillespie and PHILOMENA Morgan. Those interviews are part of the series stories from silence which you can find it stories stories from silence dot Com Susan's also working on a book about Protestants in Northern Ireland. And another one. All about borders. I'm Sean Raum the rest of our team here today. Explain his bridge McCarthy Halima Shah Ana Al Saadi Julian Weinberger and Shapiro. The mysterious brake master cylinder provides music and we had a mash up from Jeff. Geld this week an extra hands on deck belonging to Rhodesia Karma and Bird Pinkerton. Our fact checker. Olivia extra is moving. Non from facts. We wish her all the best and thank her for Oliver Checks. Our new fact Checker is CECELIA lay. Welcome Cecilia today. Explained is part of the box media. PODCAST network get in touch. Our email addresses today explained at box dot com
The Invisible Border
"Hey I'm random Nevada. I'm running out of Louis and this week on through line. We're bringing you something a little bit different. We really liked the show today. Explained and recently they covered the history of Northern Ireland. Brexit has brought Northern Ireland in. Its troubled past back into the news and we were right in the middle of trying to figure out how to tell that very complicated and contested history when we heard an episode of today explained hosted by Sean Swamp. The did just that so we decided to call up the person who made it. My name is Noam Hassenfeld and I'm a reporter producer at today explained okay so no you decided to tackle the history of the troubles and Ireland more. Generally which as I think most people know it's packed with a lot of competing narratives a lot of emotion. So how did you even begin to approach telling this kind of story that was the biggest hurdle I think just because there are so many different ways to tell this story from so many different perspectives. I think people often look at this story. And they say okay. There's the Catholic perspective and there's the Protestant perspective but there's not even just two perspectives. There is the British government perspective. There's the perspective of the Republic of Ireland. What I decided to do was present the conflict part around Brexit and in dealing with the history. I think what I really tried to do is focus on the effects and the suffering rather than the causes and who to blame. I worked with a reporter. Susan McKay who herself had done a bunch of interviews with both Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland who had been impacted by violence committed by both Protestants and Catholics. And really what I was trying to show is. Just how how terrible. This situation was Through atrocities committed by all all parties. How tenuous the piece that was created out of this was and how much of a tragedy would be if we were to lose something like this over brexit one of the approaches. You took clearly was to emphasize experience. Who lived it? I'm what was the thinking behind that? Approach that really worked in terms of putting us there in the in that history so I just want to know why you thinking. Yeah so I mentioned Susan McKay. I mean she did this. Incredible series called stories from silence where she interviewed partners of family members that have been killed in the troubles children of family members who have been killed in the troubles it was really a very powerful series and she did a lot of reporting through the troubles and then followed up with them after the type of thing. When when I started out this story I reached out to people as like. Hey can do you know anyone who can connect me to to people who have personal stories in the troubles. In everyone is very rightly I think concerned about someone just parachuting in and telling the story incorrectly are insensitively and Susan. Very graciously allowed me to do was she had done this work. She had put in the time and really understood. All of the things that happened she had lived through the troubles. She grew up in Ireland in Derry or Londonderry and what she allowed me to do was basically take examples of people that were killed by both the Republican Army and by loyalists. And just understand that in both situations. Was You know you can argue? Who's to blame? You can argue whether something was a response to a previous action or who started it. It's not clear to me how you can never solve. Who STARTED IT? But I think there's no arguing with suffering. There's no arguing with how much this impacted every type of person in Northern Ireland. So I think focusing on personal stories a good way to get that across. Thank you know him so much for sharing with us. Death thinks guys after the break the invisible border support for this podcast and the following message come from Google from Connecticut to California from Mississippi to Minnesota millions of American businesses are using Google tools to grow online the grow with Google initiative support small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching in all fifty states helping businesses get online connect with new customers and work more productively learn more at Google dot com slash grow. You Might Know Nick. Kroll from his. Very Raunchy animated show on Netflix big mouth. Are you the Puberty Ferry Hubert? Very Hormone Monster. I'm not a fairy well now. He's starring as a romantic lead in a movie set the Olympics actor and comedian. Nick Kroll next time on. It's been a minute from NPR a warning that today's episode features some graphic descriptions of violence near the top and the bottom of this first half. There's no violence after the break. If you WANNA avoid it altogether let's begin We have covered brexit backwards and forwards. On today explained we've talked about trade and immigration an ideology and it's all been sort of abstract very political but on the show today our reporter. Naughton Hassenfeld is going to take us to a place where you can actually see what brexit might do with your own eyes. Yeah and In the interest of minimizing my carbon footprint. I got someone closer to go for me. My name is Leona and Emma journalist from Northern Ireland Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but it shares a border with the independent country of Ireland to the south. I am on. The border between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland is just signed dairy. It's a very very very busy ruled of pulled to the side of the road here. There's literally hundreds of cars going up and down. Pass me here right now. Since both the United Kingdom and Ireland are in the European Union. That border is barely noticeable. But after tonight while the country of Ireland will still be in the EU things. Start to get complicated at the border brags that has posed particularly difficult and genetic problem for US rex. It could bring checkpoints police the military. But that's nothing new for this border. When you say the border the Northern Irish border people think They Hark back to those days when they're a huge bank military installations where the British army would be there you know their checkpoints and stuff I got. There is nothing like that night at the moment as something. That's kind of forgotten a bite almost as an invisible border when I was growing up Here beside the border you know you. It approaches the border huge military installations corrugated iron walls heavily fortified full of soldiers. Armed soldiers. So sometimes your car will be pulled on. Everybody would be taken out of the car. The car would be searched for guns and ammunition and all that kind of stuff these military installations were shot. They were bombed. You're almost taking your life in your hands stopping them. When you re possums particularly was children on the car it was quite a terrifying experience this peaceful spot where Leona is sitting right now. Thirty years ago it was a living nightmare and nineteen ninety. Potsy Glaspie was a young father the IRA the Irish. Republican Army were targetting particle because he worked in a British army station here and there. They held his wife and his children hostage Told Patsy to get on his van and drive to the British Army station here. The checkpoint on Quinn said. He didn't do that that they should has. Wife and his children this is patsies wife Kathleen. He was chained to the driver seat and the steering wheel of that is loaded with twelve hundred pounds of explosives and he was made to drive the van to the army. Checkpoint Gosh Kwan Tamed. To shut a warning and I was told by one of the soldiers Zhifei that they had run boys. I'm loaded run and Bomb was detonated by remote control and Patsy was blown to pieces. What five soldiers patsy was actually identified by a pace of grace? Zip attached tip piece of the woollen Cardigan under the flesh to this day. Kathleen Remembers Patsy on the border. I'm sitting here actually across the road from the memorial pats. Kathleen leaves floors. I can see them sitting here. She leaves flowers every every week there for her patsy. Brexit isn't just bringing these memories back it actually might disrupt this hard-fought piece. I know from speaking to desert and Republicans in the past that should anti structure go up on the border. Anna can of a sign that says this is the border they will blow it up anyone who puts the life of a customs officer at risk. They will need police protection. The police are then become a target as well as customs officer after our tax on them. The army might be brought back to protect the police. Protect the customs officer and then we're back in the nineteen seventies nineteen eighties Northern Ireland. We have a very delicate peace hero. Northern Ireland anything could just put it over the edge. Peace in Northern Ireland isn't just delicate. It took decades of civilian uprisings military crackdowns and brutal terrorist campaigns to reach this point. Thousands of people died in the process and the peace deal that created. This invisible. Border was an almost impossible. Balancing Act Ireland was part of the British Empire until the beginning of the twentieth century. And this was not a situation which was desired by the majority of people in Ireland. Susan McKay is an author journalist from Londonderry in Northern Ireland. People they're often call it dairy. There was a smaller. Protestant minority concentrated in the northeast of Ireland. Which did not want to be part of a united Ireland so in one thousand nine twenty one. Ireland was partitioned. The South was independent. While the north remained part of the United Kingdom a border was put across the country. And it's an extraordinary border. Zigzag all over the place that cuts off one county donegal practically from the rest of the Republic of Ireland. It divides villages divides hoses. It divides people's farms. This has been denied a small rather old fashioned town and concentrate on one of the six northeastern counties of Ireland which are headed under British rule. The situation the north was that the unionists who were those who were loyal to Britain. Set up the northern station. Such a way that Catholics and nationalists could really have no par. Ku's third of the people of this little town are nationally. That is to say. They are in favor of unity with the rest of Ireland and against being feed as part of one-third unionist which means favouring British rule and the partition of Ireland. But the tone is controlled by the unionist minority and run shortly in there. So the upshot of this gerrymandering is that was called. Was that the. Catholic population lived in extremely disadvantaged circumstances in crowded areas. They didn't of power. Their unemployment was very high and they were extremely unhappy about the state in the nineteen sixties. Things changed with the advent of television and with the advent of second level education for larger numbers of people the Civil Rights Movement Rosa Hosing issues and employment issues and it was met by the northern state with a very violent response civil rights protests against alleged discriminations were dotted at first as no more than a nuisance but as they continued and became more insistent and extreme petrol-bomb ominously replaced stones the main weapons. This was the beginning of what people call the troubles nationalists and Republicans fighting against unionists loyalists or British troops and regular people caught in the middle into the middle of that scenario the IRA the Irish Republican Army begun to build up forces that was very much accelerated in January nineteen seventy-two and bloody Sunday occurred and that was a notorious massacre of innocent civil rights marchers by a British regiment called the paratroopers. Thirteen people were killed. None of them were armed so a lot of people started to join the IRA at that point. You had appalling incidents including bloody Friday when the IRA planted a lot of bombs in the shopping streets of Belfast and discriminatively killing civilians on that day. Belfast attacked with twenty seven bombs. In one afternoon. Nine died in over one hundred thirty injured and Jihad loyalists going into collusion with renegade members of the British security forces killing Catholics in isolated areas around the country and nine hundred eighty one. The British government tried to remove political stasis from IRA prisoners and as a result the. Ira Prisoners went on hunger. Strike and Margaret Thatcher refused to relent. Crime is crime is crime it is not political. It is crime. No question of political status by the time a negotiation was reached. Ten of them had died and by the years of the nineteen nineties. The people of Northern Orange were just completely approaching despair. Susan you covered the troubles as a reporter. What was that experience like well? Being a reporter during the conflict meant going to a lot of funerals meant attending a lot of scenes were very violent incidents had happened. Meant talking to people who are in a state of shock and grief and many journalists. Like me had to. You know. Go to people's houses the morning after somebody had been cuddled and do interviews with bereaved families. And you've been following up with some of them yeah. I went back to many of the families that I had. I met when they were first bereaved. They're all very powerful and very moving but a few of them did particularly stick in my mind One of them was the story of James. Morgan which was told by his mother. Philomena James was. He was a sixteen year old. He's just like any other normal happy. Go Lucky sixteen year old so we're not day. Gm's went to meet his friend Nielsen but maybe for two to three hundred yards of throat. You never made it. He was picked up on the bottom Ryan. Heads the HAM killed on the diminishment? Pit weeded door. Who was when we looked for than a detective arrived Dallas? So that's where I got. The news from trump's would seem to be far from here but it never even entered her hands to something like this could happen in a small village but it did change things forever. James Morgan was murdered by loyalists and nine hundred ninety seven near his home in the mountains of mourne hundred went to court. The judge said awkwardly. Sectarian he was more diverse religion for a long time after it was very nerve. I because I could sleep the rest of the boys role. Would they picked up the wrong person? Would they go down a road that you didn't want them to contain fodder issues to save? He got a good day. Take on if you can laugh. Laugh announced with took his advice in those people's lives were ruined on people had to come to terms with immense pain on many many people are still struggling without paying somehow after all that pain. Both sides made peace in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight now. Brexit might make it more in a minute on today explained support for this podcast and the following message. Come from squarespace the easy to use website. Builder designed by world-class designers. Squarespace has everything you need to launch a sleek and modern website and with twenty four seven customer support your customers will always have streamlined experience. Visit squarespace dot com slash. Npr for a free fourteen day trial. And when you're ready to launch us the offer code. Npr to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. Each of us is the star in the movie of our life. But how much of a role do we play in other people's movies at a really sort of palpable fear that they were going to reject me or worse the unseen pressures we place on other people this week on hidden brain from NPR now beneath the pyramid penthouse of Stormont Castle buildings? The final scenes of this extraordinary political drama or about to be acted on April tenth. Nineteen Ninety eight Belfast. Northern Ireland hours past a midnight deadline dawn broken stormed with the deadline for agreement. Well past and the chances of a deal emerging seemingly slim it's Good Friday the most somber day on the calendar for both Catholics and Protestants. It's all about death sacrifice and the anticipation of rebirth. It was a feeling of anticipation as the conviction grew that there were with the same history in the making. All parties have been invited the largely Protestant unionists along with hardline loyalist groups and the largely Catholic nationalists along with hardline Republican groups. The mood here at stolen veered almost by the hour between confidence that a deal was tantalizingly close to fears that these talks even as the finish line loomed into sites could still stumble David Trimble. Head of the Ulster Unionist Party. We see this. As laying the foundations for a healthy vibrant democracy to replace the stagnation frustration and powerlessness of the last three decades. Gerry Adams head of the political wing of the Irish Republican Army. These negotiations which resulted from them are part of our collective journey from the failures of the towards a future together as of day stretches into evening. The mediator former US senator. George Mitchell makes an announcement almost a century in the making. I'm pleased to announce that the two governments and political parties of Northern Ireland reached agreement after a generation of struggle. I think many in the Republican Movement said look. It's time to cash. In our chips Donohoe Bachailian International Relations Dublin City University. They had entered a situation of what you might call a mutually hurting stalemate where you know. They weren't going to achieve their objectives through force. But neither could the British government impose its authority by force either so they came up with a compromise with two parts was the relationships within Northern Ireland. The power relationships. The deal promised that nationalists and unionists would always be represented in Northern Ireland's government. Both sides compromised got something what they got was to share power within Northern Ireland based on power-sharing part to the bigger picture on the one hand it promised that Northern Ireland would stay part of the United Kingdom but on the other hand there was a provision for what's called a border poll. Meaning that at any point in the future there could be a referendum where the people of Northern Ireland would vote on whether to join a united Ireland or as British Prime Minister. Tony Blair put those who believe in a united island can make that case now by persuasion not violence or threats and if they voted in favor of united are the British government was duty bound to legislate for. It was almost as if the deal was saying something. Different to each side for unionists. This deal was ideally the end but for nationalists they would never have agreed to it if they had been sold it as an end in itself so certainly was presented as a stepping stone for one side. The deal affirmed that Northern Ireland was a permanent part of the United Kingdom for the other side. The door was open for Northern Ireland to join the rest of Ireland. Everybody gets a little bit of what they want. Nobody gets everything but everybody gets enough to sell it to their supporters. It was kind of confusing but that was by design. The term they use was constructive. Ambiguity you try and massage the unpalatable details to a certain degree when people are signing up to something but ultimately then you need to inject the money that changed institutions very quickly afterwards so that people don't have time to go back and have this so-called buyer's remorse. There was no perfect solution to the issue of the border. So the plan sidestepped. It hoping the problem might improve with time. The miracle of the Good Friday Agreement is that it's not as is often touted a conflict resolution situation. This is conflict management. We haven't in a sense dismantle the sectarian mindset that exist in Northern Ireland. Only the guns have been put aside but not the divisive mentalities and that's of course evident to anybody who visits Northern Ireland. And the all these different things institutional change constitutional. Ge You still have a problem of attitudes. Not Having changed even in Belfast. For example the city there are kilometers upon kilometers of walls which divide both communities most were built during the troubles but some have gone up even since the peace agreement. If you are from one community you can spend your entire life growing up without meeting or having a serious conversation with somebody. From the other community. Ninety percent of Northern Ireland students study exclusively with members of their own community. You get employed into different area re different newspapers. You play different. Sports northern remains very divided. What the Good Friday Agreement did is that. It regulated the conflict in such a way that people didn't feel it was worthwhile killing each other to resolve it all the while the Northern Irish border has remained almost invisible. It's want that to fights farms. It divides families. It's an unnatural border. And what the Good Friday Agreement managed to do was to make that border invisible. And what Brexit has done is it has reintroduced the thrash of visible border back on the island of Ireland one. That would be what they call a hard border customs posts security and that's something that of course everybody who was involved in the. Good Friday Agreement is trying to prevent when we come back how brexit might play out in Ireland support for. Npr comes from Newman's own foundation working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from Newman's own food products to charitable organizations that seek to make the world a better place. More information is available at Newman's own foundation dot org tonight's brexit deadline doesn't say much about what the deal will look like in practice. It's symbolism the real negotiations are still yet to take place and when the trade agreement is negotiated the United Kingdom. We'll have to make a choice. The UK is going to have to figure out its trade borders all over again and it's talking about drawing one in the Irish sea which more or less allows for continuing free trade within the island of Ireland but a defacto border between Northern Ireland. And the rest of the United Kingdom. This trade border would split a country Northern Ireland on one side and the rest of the UK on the other but the other option could be even riskier option to would risk undoing the Good Friday agreement by rebuilding the land border between Ireland and Northern Ireland that border between North and south would become the international border between the European Union and the United Kingdom. And it will have to be policed. It would be visible and the history of art and suggests that once you have a visible border it becomes a target. Then you'll have to have reinforcements to defend it from attack and you end in an escalating situation which leads to widespread conflict. The history of the troubles makes the risk of a rebuilt landlord or clear but for unionists in Northern Ireland. A border in the Irish Sea could be dangerous to the problem for people from that perspective. Who by far the majority of the people who did vote for Brexit here is that throws up the possibility that the United Kingdom itself will not hold together? Ben Lowry edit the unionist leaning Belfast newsletter. This is a massive change. The impact of being edged out of the economic territory of your own nation is a very serious one but for Ben. It's not a shocking result. Very many people in England when put to the test are not bothered in the least at the prospect of Northern Ireland. Leaving and that is something that must concentrate the minds of those of us unionists to think carefully about what the future means. A twenty nine hundred poll found that among pro. Brexit English. Voters almost three-quarters said they didn't care if brexit led to the break-up of the UK and eighty percent said that brexit is worth it even if it unravels the peace process in Northern Ireland as those in Northern Ireland the arguments in favor of Brexit from a Northern Ireland perspective are the European Union is a fundamentally incoherent system that it tries to many things that are the preserve of the nation state. Essentially the same argument made by the rest of Britain that a nation should make choices for itself think of the person in Northern Ireland who thinks of themselves as part of the United Kingdom who doesn't think about it very much but then accepts that when the nation has decided to move on a major constitutional matter then we as an integral part of that nation should move with it. I think the simple truth is that because it all happened relatively quickly. I don't think a lot of thought was given to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland so brexit's left unionists with a lot of questions. What do we do if England and the rest of the UK don't want Northern Ireland? What do we do if independence is not feasible? And what do we do with people in the Republic of Ireland don't want Northern Ireland? You know we could just be this unwanted place. That's in limbo forever. Those are genuine concerns coming from a guy who was once bullish on Brexit. If you'd asked me ten years ago I was a big supporter of Brexit. Because I thought that the cultural gulf between the United Kingdom and the mainland Europe was too great Unin theory. It's still seems to have a lot of sense to it. But in practice it would be problematic on potentially disastrous brexit. Just doesn't have a good solution that satisfies everyone for most people. The best solution was exactly the way things were attentive. Fragile status quo and Danika says that was the miracle of the Good Friday Agreement. The whole idea of the Good Friday agreement was to postpone the constitutional issue for at least a generation. Let's get people of different political aspirations working together for a generation or two and then when they're used to working together within Northern Ireland then we can delicately put the question if a majority suggests that will happen thus we would maybe have a united Ireland and what Brexit did is that it. It refocused attention on the constitutional issue and all that work that had been put into de emphasizing the border de emphasizing sovereignty de emphasizing constitutional questions dot was now back fronton center of practical politics that de-emphasis seemed to be working in a recent survey half of the people in Northern Ireland considered themselves to be neither unionist nor nationalist and the younger they were the more neutral. They got the younger generation. Don't remember what the conflict was like. I mean I'm a professor as I said in the university I have twenty-something students in front of me it's just remarkable it makes me feel of course incredibly old that they don't remember a conflict in Northern Ireland. I guess the fear is as you have generation who don't know the price of peace who haven't felt the heart on the devastation. That conflict can cause that this could be thrown away so certainly piece is not take for granted. The Good Friday Agreement as in many respects a miraculous achievement I think what so miraculous here is. How rare it is that. Conflicts like this get resolved. Diplomatically without one side just surrendering. Think about what something like. This would mean for Israel Palestine India Pakistan or even Ukraine and Russia. I know none of these conflict is exactly like the other. And even Northern Ireland's case the peace plan didn't solve everything but the miracle here is that two sides that were at each other's throats for almost a century actually came together. They talked they decided on a fragile peace. And it actually worked and then people forgot Explained reporter No. I'm hasn't felt thanks to Susan McKay. Who allowed us to use the audio she recorded of Kathleen? Gillespie and PHILOMENA Morgan. Those interviews are part of the series stories from silence which you can find it. Stories from silence Dot Com Susan's also working on a book about Protestants in Northern Ireland. And another one all about borders. I'm Sean Rama's firm. The rest of our team. Here today explained his bridge McCarthy. How Much Ana Assadi Jillian Weinberger and FEM- Shapiro? The mysterious brake master cylinder provides music. We had a mash up from. Jeff Geld this week an extra hands on deck belonging to Rosia Karma and Bird Pinkerton fact checker. Olivia extra is moving on from facts. We wish her all the best and thank her for Oliver Checks. Our new fact Checker is CECELIA lay. Welcome Cecilia unexplained is part of the box media. Podcast network get in touch. Our email addresses today explained at Vox Dot Com
Conference replay: How to create a content performance culture
"The business storytellers. Thanks for joining me. This is a replay of my content performance culture hog that. I've given the number of summits recently. I'm basically it's the audio version but I'm just talking. There's no our point. There's really no visuals. Hopefully you will enjoy this special episode of the business storytelling podcast. If you have not subscribe please do so on any other podcast channels and I hope you check my blog is will storytelling that netted. Let's dive in how we can create content performance culture. Hey everyone it's Christoph trap thanks joining me My pleasure to be part of this summit and I want to talk about how to create that content performance culture and I care about that topic so much just finished my third book. Two hundred twenty thousand pages of how do you actually create that content performance culture? What's the content performance culture to get started? The biggest thing to remember is when I started in journalism. There was no such thing. I keep joking that back in the day people would say to me. Kristoff how many people read your article and I would say eighty three thousand. And how would I know that? Eighty three thousand. Read it simple enough. That was the subscriber number eighty. Three thousand people got the print newspaper so certainly they all read my article. Why wouldn't they right because they got the paper? That's kind of what you do with it. Of course today we can measure everything and everything should have goals and even when we don't write them down unfortunately people do expect performance of fortunately unfortunately I guess At sometimes the problem is that we're not very clear on what the goal actually is. They just exist in somebody's head. We didn't write them down. We didn't have a strategy but then when the time comes where we look at the success of a campaign. People are still looking at what they thought. The goal was so really super important to to kind of follow the framework of a content performance culture to be successful. So there's a number of pillars that. I recommend that you focused in the first one is that you have to embrace that there is a performance culture in. Here's what that means. You actually have to look at the numbers and you know we talk about dashboards. Put up a dashboard. There's so many different ways to put up a dashboard today. Google studio other tools. That can tell you how your content is performing especially on the channels that you care most about so if you're mostly on social media make that your top priority if you're focusing on the website make that your priority. If you're focusing on something else figure out what the best way is to measure your goals. It's it's really that simple in theory but you have to embrace and you have to make sure the goals are in front of you so you probably see that with a lot of companies. Now when you go into their offices they have DASHBOARDS UP. And you can actually see goals on those dashboards. So whatever the goal is anybody that walks in there and can't see them and I find that a fantastic way to do it because if you don't look at your goals if you don't see them if you don't know what the progresses how do you know that you're accomplishing anything. How do you know you're on track? How do you know that you're trying? So but the thing is you have to tie to your goal so if you call is not to reach a certain number of audience members or to saturate the market to a certain extent. How do you know what to go after the joke about this sometimes is I was a football player had a scholarship to play at the University of Iowa Lineman so wait a lot because Lyon eat and they're expected to be big and basically when I was done playing football I lost one hundred forty pounds and the reason that's important bring up to lose weight? That's one strategy to to gain muscle. That's another strategy right. So if I WANNA get more buff I should lift. If I WANNA lose weight I should run and eat less so just something to think about that. This also applies in a content performance culture. Set Your goals and then go after them and you have to embrace that. You're actually wanting to do that. The other thing is anecdotes. Sometimes they do help so for example. Let's say you're talking and interviewing an expert in your company and you share their story and all of a sudden you can't measure whether or not people actually if it worked right if they take it off line for example let's say they take it off. Line there read the article. They call but they didn't use the phone number that you're using for tracking and you can't measure it but the anecdote from that expert telling you that it seemed like the campaign worked that also matters but the but the end of the day we have to be sure to measure what we're going after and then we have to look at that so those are some of the strategies to do that the second pillar is innovation by all. And you know. Here's the thing. There's a lot of barriers to overcome for true innovation. I mean the latest. I just talked to Michael Brenner. The other day. He's the author of mean people suck and I asked him Michael. Why do we even need this book? Nobody disagrees with that statement and he said the era of smart jerks needs to be over. And that's a very good point right because it used to be bosses could be jerks and bosses. Basically this is how you do it and it's okay to have leaders hold you accountable but innovation happens from everybody and so it's really important that you know leaders and really anybody who comes forward with the project talk about the goal. What are we trying to accomplish? And then the team can innovate together and that also includes like blessing right so if somebody says hey we wanNA reach this audience. How do we do that? Don't come to everybody with all the answers. Come to them with the problem. We're trying to solve and then give people a chance to innovate. That doesn't mean everybody has to love every idea you ever present. But you do want to make sure that you think about How do we innovate as a team? And how do you? Innovate on a personal level. All right the next pillar is next. Play mentality and so that certainly is a term that came from playing football and for over a decade or roughly a decade and neck. So what happens? Sports teams run a play. Something good happens or something. Bad happens doesn't really make any difference. What happens they have to run another play right so we want that same mentality when it comes to content marketing when it comes to count in creation social media strategy all those sub sections of digital marketing and inbound marketing? We want to talk about. What's the next play? Run the next play. That campaign didn't work run another play. Run another campaign. Try something else so I was asked that question recently. What would you do if a client says we We to do this and you disagree with that that we should do that. And the traditional answer is argue and talk about it and try to get them to change their mind and some people argue that you wanNA compromise. I don't think compromises necessarily a good way to digital strategy but really what I would recommend is okay if you think that's a good idea. Let's get it in a close to perfect shape and you know done. Most of the time is better than perfect. Plus perfect is really impossible to achieve user experience. Of course but then what you do. Is You test their idea for a week or two weeks or whatever you agree on right. Don't just shut it down but try it. And that's the beauty of digital marketing today. We don't just run a campaign and that's it running campaign test test test test test if it didn't work run another campaign run another campaign and you know they build on each other of course but that is the next. Play mentality if you don't have to be stuck in in only one answer you know. Be Stuck in trying to keep going for that goal. And that's what's interesting when we talk about automation right. We'll talk about that a little bit later here that you can automate. Thanks but you still hold to oversee you still have to think about the strategy the next pillar that is really really important. Is the right players in the right seats. And I hate to say it guys but this is like not. Everybody is good at everything. And you have to have a well rounded team What do well rounded teams have What do they do? They Complement Each Other. And they're also complement each other because they love each other's success. They work together. They they grow together they build things together so keep that in. Mind that you need to have the right players in the right seats just because somebody worked out in that same seat. Ten years ago doesn't mean they will work out today Right and things have changed so just something to think about. You need the right players. Who are the right players? Typically most teams I would say need content creators somebody that creates the content. Whatever that might look like a probably that means you need to have some people who can write You know everything comes back writing. I mean even I made notes right for for this It's not a script. I'm not reading a script but it's still written out and in all honesty The the sections really just chapters from the book. So I'm talking about what I also purpose in the book and now I'm repurposing again. Good teams do that. They re purpose content they throw content parade and they use it everywhere. So counting creators. We definitely need them. They should be able to write whether it's for video whether it's for podcasts. Whether it's for articles of the other thing when it comes to canton creation I you know I probably publish a blog post day but a thousand words or so. I'm not saying you need to do that. But I currently do that. Because of the strategy implementing and I write very few of them and by writing what I mean right. I have my keyboard and I'm writing on my keyboard. That's not how I do it. I most of the time voice dictate them so I'm standing here and I have my iphone and voice dictating directly into the wordpress APP. And then the wordpress APP will transcribe it. That works well most of the time. Sometimes you have to go in and updated but think about the different ways you can produce content and the different ways you can create content. We'll talk about video a little bit more here and also podcasting but there's other ways to create content. I mean so today to to do some of those things. As long as you're a good storyteller you still have to create a story line and you still have to be willing to try new things. Then the strategies or syndication specialists and this is important. Because I've seen teams that create average content racket when they have rockstar syndication strategists right. Because they do such a good job getting it in front of people that at the end of the day the average content worked because they were in front of a lot of people so enough people is a numbers game unfortunately but enough people saw it and enough people clicked now. That doesn't mean we shouldn't go after better content rockstar content. But when that happens it's just an indicator that you need somebody on the team who's really good with syndication. Of course you can't totally break that out further to also you know you can have email marketing strategies you can have social media specialists you can have SEO specialists you can have all these different things. Some teams. Don't have that kind of budget to to have all those different areas. But you need to have somebody who is good at that who is good at writing. Subject lines who is good setting cadences on email? Who's good at distributing it on social? Seo I've seen more and more writers you know take on the Seo task as well and but definitely email is a fantastic syndication tool also remarketing. Right people come to your site. How do you come back? You hit them up with some good content. That's that's worth consuming So definitely need somebody like that. The other role that I would highly recommend for the right people in the right seat pillar is to have analysts. And this really hit me over the last year I was speaking at a conference in San Diego and I said who your team not send you. Anaheim. California who on your team should be the digital analyst and there's all these answers flying around but when I turned that story that question around and ask who on your team should be the writer everybody says the writer right so because that's not a new thing. Everybody knows what writer is but we do need somebody in the digital analysts rope. Who is not everything else digital analysis and it's also setting up and tracking goals is actually a relatively advanced skillset of and also. Sometimes you know I've had some discussions with analysts about when things can't be measured so the analysts would say that Exa can't be measured. What's your goal? What are you trying to measure? And based on that collaborative discussion you can then figure out how to measure it but it is important to have those roles now sometimes can play multiple roles right and fill multiple of those needs. But but I think it would be hard to think that one person can be good at everything so the digital analyst role also goes into the final pillar of that I want to mention is on going evaluation and I am still amazed how often this doesn't happen and ongoing evaluation. Is We look at the numbers so you know. We talked about having a dashboard up looking at the dashboard knowing. What's working knowing what's not working and every once in awhile people have said well. Why are we report like so? Let's say you have a print and digital right so I just talked with Joe Patsy on my business storytelling podcast. We've record a and Jost theory is that they will be more brand print magazines coming out and I think he might be onto something. So basically brands produced these magazines. They ship them to people every quarter or whatever it might be and then they used them as lead generation and awareness campaigns right like just like e mail except that comes in print. And what's interesting about that is you can only measure that impact every quarter or every whatever however many times it comes out you know and then I might take a while because people don't read it the second you send it s still get there through the mail from the printer etc etc. But what's interesting is and digital. You can measure things all the time right in fact some of us have gotten addicted to check in. If something's working or it's now working the numbers going up not yet give me five more minutes there. Ten more minutes. You know that kind of thing but you do need the numbers and you need to look at them and you need to look at them daily and if we don't it's really really truly hard to make work but you know that's why the ongoing evaluation is harder and harder to do so. Let's dive into a few steps on how to create that content performance culture. One thing that we have to keep in mind as we WANNA come up with a plan and I know some people will say that's nothing new but so it's nothing new that why are there so many companies out there that don't have a plane. I look at teams. They're like Oh we have a plan. Here's what we're trying to do okay. Is it written down really recommend writing it down? This is a goal. This is what we're trying to do. And here's how we're going to do it and even if it's just one page and that even if you update what you're currently working on the goals can change and they should change because it's a dynamic environment but once you have that in place The only way truly to win through content is you have to publish content. Now the question is how often and that all depends so I was talking to Andy Christie. Who's one of the the fellow instructors here on this summit and you know? He said to me. He publishes something in-depth weeks and basically his company can't be hired to do website design. And so how often do people need new websites every three to five years and one? They decided that they needed to website. How long is the buying decision? The decision cycle about two months so if he publishes every two weeks he can tap a mind most of the time when people need help he can't be top of mind at least four times right or at least two times and four times if the timing works out so for him that's fine for me currently authentic storytelling that got a little bit different goal. I'm trying new things. I'm testing new things. I'm a marketing really marketing myself. So I'm doing podcasts. Daily doing blog post daily. And that's kind of my strategy for the time being. That doesn't mean everybody has to do that. Daily but think about what is the Cadence you should be on. Probably should be more than once a month in my opinion. Probably should be more than once every quarter. You know if you really go in depth and you really hit that nail of an important topic that people care about you might be okay going less I do. I have seen content campaigns where people create less content. But it's so in depth and it's really hitting a pain point and they do a fantastic job with syndication. Sometimes it works but you know all the studies I've seen from and others is frequency and quality. And all those things do help with. Seo So just something to think about doesn't mean we have to do daily but we have to do it and then get on a schedule and do share that content and keep measuring things and building on each other. Let's talk about podcasting so I'm a writer by Trade Emma journalist by training. I guess and when I grew up everything was writing. You know like this. You write an article like there was nothing else and now we have podcasting and podcasting is really taken off and from what? I'm seeing more and more people half podcast. They're fairly easy to produce. I'll talk about that live. And then how do you tied in to your overall create once publish everywhere cope strategy that Cope Strategy? Which I'm sure many of you are familiar with. So basically what I do. Is I set up to podcasts? One is the content performance cultural book podcasts. And this is an idea. I got from Joe. Poets see he. He put out a novel. And it's only being released as a podcast so I thought hey I have the book right. I got the print book but I also want to distributed as podcast so literally wind chapter by Chapter and there's about twenty four chapters roughly and there's GonNa be two bonus chapters that all have their own episodes and they're being released. There's still currently being released through about middle and marge tool week and so people can listen to them. So I set that up because I want to maximize building that audience and then you know driving awareness of the brand of the concept of You know helping people to be more successful drive performance through content and then I have the business storytelling podcast and what I do on. There sometimes is just me talking like now. I'm just talking sharing my own knowledge and thoughts and opinions to extend keep that in mind. Somethings they work today. But they don't work tomorrow or you might find another way of or doesn't apply exactly to your situation so that does happen but I got the business storytelling podcasts. I do talk on their myself and I also have guests already mentioned some Indian Joe and Michael Brenner and others. And the way you record it is so simple today. Let me just open it up here quickly on so I have my phone and I got the anchor APP and this is not sponsored honestly but I got the anchor APP and log and it's so easy I mean you literally just invite friends to the sun is kind of in the way you there and you invite friends to record as long as they have the APP super easy for them to just hop on you can record it. And then when you're done you trim it and then you put it on you get it scheduled for publication and it goes live now what. I do a lot of times. Is I take podcasts. Once they get published. Sometimes I'd do at the same time but not always I take that content and I also write an article for authentic storytelling dot net. So that's cope strategy right. You have a piece of content. What are the other channels that you can share a two and you know a podcast is a great way to do that? Especially for your guests. Let's say you invite expert from your company on the show and if you're at the same location you can literally talk to you. Talk to the phone. Hand the phone back and forth. I wouldn't handbag. I would appointed like this and just for the record. The microphone on an iphone is down here right at the bottom of the phone now at the top so use the might use the iphone almost like a microphone like that. That's what I would do. Make sure you can see that. It's recording so. When the screen goes dead can click it really quickly but then I use that as another way to get more content out there and get ahead of the schedule. You know a thirty minute conversation. You can easily right. Twelve hundred word article from that no problem at all. Do it all the time and you know that's one way to do that. The other one. So I use anchor for that And really just talk like like you. Having a conversation I do edit. I do music I do sometimes so every once in awhile I will lose connection with somebody so I have multiple clips at that point. I will add Like like commercial break. I guess you know. Check out my latest book Blah Blah Blah and. I could do that even if there wasn't a break in the recording Usually don't but you can do things like that. The biggest problem with anchor is if you have external guests and for some reason they they need to be given the opportunity to review the audio. That's currently not possible. They have to log into your account so just something to keep in mind but certainly you can record other ways but if you mobile only. I'm a mobile only creator that help the other tool that I wanted to mention really really briefly is artificial artificial virtual reality video and this is such a great way to also share stories that are visual so for example. If I'm just standing here right you don't need a vr video of me standing here in my office. Just this works just fine right but if it was a visual area you can now buy cameras that you can put a copy of phone. They're like bucks more expensive ones like two hundred dollars and you put him on here. You can walk around with those attachments and you can shoot your video and then people can actually watch them on their phone with a headset and they can look around the room. You know with their headset. So it's really cool to do that now. The Way to think about that is make sure. It is actually something visuals so the couple of examples that I've used before I was at a in a show room in Chicago and very very visual right. It's so you could see something. And then what it is I sean all these takes and then I interviewed some of the experts about what was going on and it was about Acoustics. Ride what was going on here. Why why was this looking like that? What's the student at Cetera et Cetera? And then I cut it together. Then we cut it together. I didn't do it. The editor did but You know so you can use that as a centerpiece for all your content creation. So you knew the video you do the podcast from just the audio you can write an article you can do social posts you can take it all these different places so those are some differentiator and the reason. I bring those. South is because different intiative happen when teams find new things to do right so for example. If I'm the only one in my market to VR video is a differentiator and of story life audio another one. I almost forgot about that one so a lot of times. What I do is I do live for life audio broadcasts record on my phone and I'm recording the video right now on my ipad. So that's my ipad and basically I do the life audio on my phone. I do the podcast recording on my ipad and then I can differentiate I have a podcast but I also did a live livestream in my life. Streams have a few hundred listeners. And there's very few companies and brands and people who are actually doing live audio broadcasts. People do live periscope. Facebook live those kind of things but life audio is relatively unused tactic. So when I do that it's a differentiator so think about. How do you use new technologies to stand out? I still remember. This is like a ten year old story now but ten years ago the United Way. We used augmented reality for print piece. And it's Kinda hard to explain today because today Auburn realities so much further along than it was back then but basically you had a print piece and then you held you phone over it right. We used to layer APP. You hold over it and now you can. It goes directly to video. War goes directly to a podcast. They'll we didn't have podcast back then. But you know what I mean. You can link to different things and have a multimedia experience and didn't didn't cost too much or really any extra cost to get that started at that time so think about. How can you share your content differently? How can you be? How can you help it different? She'd the last few Sections here I WANNA talk about getting in the weeds and you know I would highly recommend that all content leaders get in the weeds. Sometimes don't just work on the strategy but try it see if this works. It's really easy for me. I still remember this story. Really easy for me as an executive to say oh can just shoot video and pictures and interview people angle live and do this and this isn't like eight. Thanks content takes time so any leader of any team you know. Please go into the weeds. Try and and see how it works. See what's working. What's not working and also the members on the team try other tasks that doesn't mean you have to become an expert at everything. Nobody can be an expert at everything. But it's good to know okay. Why is this not working? Or How do you do that? Or how? Lona Zack? Actually take What's involved here so keep that in mind. Finally as the last topic I wanNA talk about automation fantastic content performance teams. They have and use automation to their advantage. And here's how that typically looks email marketing. If you're still putting together your emails by hand that is probably not the way to do it. In twenty twenty. There's ways to do it through a that. That happens automatically. You just say pull content from here and here and here. I had the chairman of Raza I o on the show not too long ago. The business storytelling podcast. That's one way to do it. Another way is I mean. You just have a simple. Rss Feed Right. That sends out things things you can also set up cadences so traditionally what would happen is People when they sign for your content they only get the latest condom but why waste all the other content why not send them previous content pieces so put them on a cadence. There's plenty of tools out there that you can use for that too. Do Social Media Lots of ways to automate social media as as you're probably aware so just something to think about the things you can automate automate them. If they're repetitive tasks. Why do you need to? Why do you need to do it? Manually some parts of automation are real also badly images for example. You know like I mean when I hear. People still have cheat sheets with image sizes. That's crazy just run a script or just have a make sure it's automatically resized to the right size image for whatever network you going after so content performance has never been harder and the first to admit it. I know it takes time. I know it takes work so hopefully these tips. At my five pillars of a content performance culture were helpful just as a quick review number. One you do have to embrace it. You want to write if you don't embrace it. You can't do it. I mean I cannot lose weight if I'm not embracing the weight loss journey and that's just a fact of life. Innovate I don't care. If you're the specialist. I don't care if you the intern. Everybody has a place to be innovative in their own. Regards and make sure that That you bring your ideas to the table. That doesn't mean your ideas have to be run all the time but I also would be worried. If only the bosses ideas ever move forward. We'll just something to keep in mind but push your ideas forward. You know be a vocal. But of course professional member of the team next play mentality You know run the next play. The next play is already over. There's another play just waiting Friday. You go home. It's the weekend the game is over. Monday's a new game. We need more place the right players It's okay to be in the wrong seat but then let's find the right seat and let's find the right makeup and finally we have to look at the ongoing performance and that's a nonstop thing happens all the time. So keep that in mind Good luck I hope you have a chance to create that content performance culture and get your content to do for you you wanted to do. I'm Christopher Trap Please connect with me on twitter. At Sea tramp authentic storytelling that net. And of course the author of content performance cultures. Good luck in reach out anytime. See tramp and G MAIL DOT COM. Enjoy the rest of the summit. Oh content from happening to performing. That's what everybody wants. Nowadays in content and content marketing and marketing and all those related fields check out of my new book content performance culture. The number one new release the public relations category on Amazon Dot Com. When it came out I hope you take a look. It's available as paperback kindle worldwide.
We Dont Have to Fight Loneliness Alone
"Hey work lifers. Here's another podcast. I think you'll enjoy cautionary tales undercover economists. Tim Harford tells the true stories of unexpected outcomes. From the development of tanks in modern warfare to the accidental crowning of La La land at the Oscars. Some stories are tragic some are comic but like all great parables each has a moral. That's cautionary tales from Pushkin Industries. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. My name is vic and I am a physician by training but most importantly data to toddlers when I was going through my residency training after medical school. We were told when we started the program that we should in fact call our family and close friends and tell them that they probably wouldn't be hearing from us for a long time. We were told that dealing with life and death situations excruciating illness and incredibly delicate and difficult family. Circumstances would be incredibly taxing and so with this warning in mind I entered my residency training expecting it to be an extraordinarily difficult three years. I was training with seventy some odd fellow. Recent graduates who came to work Each day almost without exception with a mindset of how we could all help each other out. I've came to work each female like I was coming to work with friends Fast forward just three years. When I started a fulltime job that community broke apart and dispersed. And instead I was in the more sterile culture of traditional medicine with a group of people. I didn't really know that. Well and a group of people who had lives well outside the hospital and I remember going to work at times feeling like there was so much to figure out and not always sure who I could be open with about the fact that I didn't know certain things or that. I was uncertain about how to proceed with the patient. I wasn't sure that I could be vulnerable in open with people and have felt quite lonely and I struggled with that until one particular moment a couple years in when I ended up as I think I've ever been and it was in had during those five days that I just realize how lonely the last couple of years had been our relationships are what catch us when we fall down and I realized in that moment lying on my couch that I didn't have much of an end. A lot of us are feeling lonely. These days the details Vivek Murthy story might not be the same as yours. But you know what? It's like to feel disconnected from your colleagues especially during the corona virus pandemic as billions of people have had to embrace isolation. There's been a shared experience of loneliness at work even before this though many of us were feeling lonely more often and more intensely than in the past. Luckily doing something about it takes less than you might think. I'm Adam grant and this is work like my podcast with Ted. I'm an organizational psychologist a study. How to make work not suck this show inviting myself inside the minds of some truly unusual people because they mastered something. I wish everyone knew about work today. Loneliness at work. It can happen even if you're surrounded by people but you don't have to fight it alone thanks to sap for sponsoring this episode. When we are lonely we are actually in a physiological stress state and when we're lonely for prolonged period of time that translates to chronic stress state which leads to higher levels of inflammation in the body which in turn damaged blood vessels and tissues and lead to a whole host of illnesses. Down the line in two thousand fourteen Vivek Murthy was appointed. Us surgeon general by President Obama. He spent a Lotta time on all the things that keep Americans unwell. Smoking obesity opioids but he never forgot that profound experience of loneliness in his own work life. He began to observe that loneliness was often at the root of many health issues and it alarmed and nobody came up to me and said Hi. My name is John. I'm lonely but I found that once I surfaced it even just a little bit and ask this. Basic question is loneliness problem in your life. A problem for the people around you and it was like the floodgates opened and everyone had a story to share as Surgeon General. Vivek started looking into the data on the health implications of loneliness. If were to tell you that the impact of loneliness on our lifespan is equivalent to that of smoking. Fifteen cigarettes a day might surprise you. Okay so wait a minute. Are you telling me that? I'm better off smoking. Fifteen cigarettes a day with a bunch of friends than quitting smoking and being lonely well. I certainly wouldn't endorse smoking in any context but the key point here though is that we should think about holiness as a important health threat in the same way that we think about obesity or smoking or sedentary living the social science on the health effects is really nuanced here. Only is only one of the factors being measured. We don't know that it's causal but I was intrigued this issue for vacant attention as a medical expert. Once you become lonely you enter into this downward spiral where we start to turn further and further inward you can actually become more difficult to be around in fact for others and that can isolate you. Even further and the real question then becomes. How do we break out of that? Negative downward spiral of loneliness and in the US even before the pandemic three out of four people reported feeling lonely since we spent so much time on our jobs work is one of the major sources of loneliness. What it feels like. Maybe you felt like there was no one could talk to you on an off day. You might have felt it when working remotely or when you switched to a new team or when you ate a sad desk lunch alone for the forty eighth day in a row. We're making fewer friends on the job than we used to. One thousand nine hundred five half of people said they had a close friend at work by two thousand and four less than a third it. This is not the case everywhere. Though in India research shows that people go on vacation with nearly half of their closest colleagues in the US. It's pretty rare for us to invite our co workers over for dinner much less. Take trips with them. There are many possible reasons for this. One is the Protestant work ethic. Many Americans deprioritize relationships at work. We're focused on being productive and professional leaving connections and emotions for outside work and that can make for a fairly isolating experience. We're also more mobile than we used to be as we move to new jobs new workplaces and new cities. We aren't investing in work. Relationships like we did in the past. A third factor might be technology. I don't think technology in and of itself is a bad thing by the way many of us are using technology either isolates us from other people or reduces the quality of our interaction with people either by distracting us or substituting lower-quality online connections for we used to be higher quality offline connections and. I think that that comes at a real price. If you're like most people you probably felt a heightened sense of isolation from your colleagues or your clients. Maybe you've even found herself missing her boss. Loneliness isn't just an unpleasant feeling. It's also bad for business. There's rigorous evidence showing that when people feel lonely at work. Their job performance falters in research at both a manufacturing company and the city government when employees reported feeling lonely. They got lower performance ratings from their supervisors six weeks later. Why when they felt lonely. Were less committed and less approachable. That men other people are less likely to reach out and support them. Which only compounded the problem loneliness can affect a whole group of people at work so the question is how to solve it collectively. When VACO was surgeon general. He decided to tackle it in his own office. One of his first efforts was to try what everyone tries. Picnics and happy hours and the results were what they usually are. People end up talking about what they have most in common which is work so it can be helpful but not nearly as helpful. I think as we hope they can be so what we did. In in contrast is we decided after doing these to try something different. Wait a minute so you killed happy hour. We didn't hear a single complaint to be honest with you. You didn't have a group of Party animals working with you. Apparently what was interesting is ending part. The reason we didn't hear complaints is because we hit created other spaces and opportunities during the day for people to spend time together. If you've ever been to a happy hour that was more about drinking than bonding. This might sound familiar. Research suggests that company parties rarely build new bridges. People gravitate toward their existing friends and groups. Leaving faultlines intact and even if you overcome that barrier happy hour is not set up for meaningful connection. Group conversations tend to stay shallow. People need to defeat loneliness deeper connection. And that's more likely to come through talking one on one or through actually doing something together. For example there's a digital marketing company bizarre voice that has an on boarding process lasting a few days newcomers. Get to know their colleagues. Through problem solving activities they create connection like scavenger hunts and some companies. Help people find lunchtime buddies by using an APP like one called never eat alone so managers need an assortment of strategies to encourage connection for different sorts of people? Which is what they tried next. He started small. If we had a half hour break. Sometimes we would just take a small group of people down to the gym downstairs and we would just shoot hoops together and chat you know for fifteen twenty minutes so we tried to create opportunities during the day for people to socialize but without spending necessarily a huge amount of time. The vache also created something. He called inside scoop the goal. Help colleagues the human behind the job instead of just Jamie in communications our callan research and what we did is we devoted five minutes once a week during our all hands meetings and we picked one person during each meeting and ask them to share pictures with us and those pictures could be at anything they wanted as long as it wasn't about their current job and it was just show. Intel and people shared all kinds of interesting things. One woman WHO's very detail oriented under memo's had been seen as a little nerdy. She shared photos of herself training for a marathon. It turned out she qualified for. Us Olympic team at one point. She herself as an athlete. Not just a researcher which was something or colleagues could then see as well another guy had served in the Marine Corps. Came off a bit STOIC. He shared photos of his mom and talked about how she was a source of strength when he was afraid he wouldn't survive a mission and we heard that story in my gosh. It just shifted how we saw him whole new dimension of this man who we came to appreciate and we saw him as a as a whole person it might seem simple but the value of seeing employees or coworkers is more than just their professional role is lost on a lot of workplaces invades team. This exercise seemed to help people bring some of their personal lives to work. There was a greater sense of connection and all it really took was five minutes once a week. It was a step toward a less lonely work environment. What's your version of inside Scoop Tech Company? It might be holding an annual. Bring your parents to workday. Fear manager it might be telling your direct reports about your closest friend. If you're working remotely might be giving your colleagues of virtual tour of your Home Office the. Us Isn't the only country where government officials are worried about loneliness. There's one country that's taken a much bigger step on. The Minister of Land Meanness Minister of Loneliness. Is that a job at hogwarts. Well some people think that the has parliament but I've had more correspondence more interest on this subject than anything else is responsible for. Data Baron is a member of British parliament. Loneliness is a big problem in the UK even pre brexit in one survey up to a fifth of all UK adults felt lonely most or all of the time so in two thousand eighteen parliament created an official program to help check in on people who lacked strong social ties and a number of big British companies signed a pledge to improve employees connections. I chatted with Baroness Baron for a few minutes during the recent brexit negotiations and. She told me that she herself felt lonely when she began her. Tenure in parliament arrived. Enormous has six hundred best friends. And you don't know anyone. We were all there at some point in high school but loneliness can be just as difficult to deal with as we grow up. Which is why it's important to talk about it. People are very reluctant to talk about. Ns because they feel it's passed failure. I think pretty much everybody does. I mean I think the fact is the most people talk passage. She's been keeping track of a few workplace practices that have brought people together to work places that like evicted with his photo. Sharing have created the conditions to help people connect more meaningfully of implies benched useful pulled shouting tables so it means that if you send it back table expats instead. I have to say I love the idea of a chatty table it might be the most British thing I've ever heard. Well we have one even over-fish which is the friendly bench. I've heard about that. Tell me more send a friendly banshee and find the park and it's an out too fattening table I have to say. I don't think I'd want to sit on. One of those benches preferred not to be approached. These kinds of programs aren't enough by themselves to transform an organizational culture. But they can open a door and send a signal that it's okay to see connection with your colleagues now not. Everyone works on a team that prioritizes connection sometimes. We have to take matters into our own hands colleagues. I think here the culture is more like people seem to want to be more separate police colleagues. Who are friends and so that feels a little bit isolating? My Name. Is Dr Lose Cloudy. I'm an environmental health scientist at Mount Sinai School Medicine. And what in the world is an environmental health scientist? It's not like being in forest. In counting animals is more about. We can protect people from environmental toxins. We talk a lot about data. You seem so sociable. I would've thought you like people too much to do this. Kind of solitary work. It is lonely work in a way but also because I am partaken and as you grow in this field because there's so few people of Color in science the higher you go up the academic ladder the lonelier unknown Jerry becomes because you're one of the few people who are from that background loose grew up in Puerto Rico with a huge family around. She likes going places in grips and she loves SALSA DANCING. Oh I love science music my favorite thing to do outside of work in South Asia. I tried to engage with you. Try to motivate people in my office. Oh there's a new restaurant nearby you WANNA come check it out. And every every other week I would say I'm quitting tussle seeing. Who's coming with me and feeling nobody did? Loose was starved for belonging. For sense of connection with people she identified with. She realized that her New York colleagues weren't going to get a socialist. She wanted she needed to do something to combat her loneliness so she decided to build a workplace community from scratch. She started with interns. Yes I was able to secure funding to bring in Underrepresented minorities in in science to work in our department. I try to create a sense of community among them yesterday. I bought cupcakes after they had a a lunch seminar so we had a time together at the kitchen talking about how they're feeling and how it's going for them in the internship program so. I try to bring them together as much as I can. When your organization lacks a sense of community or you feel out of place in the existing culture you can build your own micro community. It's a group of people who understand you share your interests that could be people who go on runs before work or it might be a book club or even a podcast club that micro community connect outside of work or during work hours and as loose found. It doesn't have to be a group of Pierce. Now she could connect and share her interest in Puerto Rican cultural events with others at work like when a hurricane hit Puerto Rico and loose was hosting visiting interns whose universities had closed down. They were missing home a lot. And if I know of our concert of music from Puerto Rico I would invite him there and so I think that served to help to give them a sense of belonging that maybe they don't have you know in the everyday in the work. Is this something that you've done when you're feeling low? May you know you create this experience for other people in it also helps you feel connected definitely because the cultural isolation has been something that I've experienced so much so for me surrounded myself on with people even though their interns and more junior but just having them around really helps me feel less lonely. On top of building a micro community loose was doing something else important here. Something that directly affected her loneliness. There's evidence that helping others makes us feel less lonely. It allows us to feel that we matter there were noticed and valued and appreciated for loose creating a space for young people of Color to get a foothold in science. Helped her feel more connected to people at work? Helping others helped her by now. She's been running intern programs at work for fifteen years. She's expanded the micro community into an alumni network and loose feels less isolated whenever this seminar in my workplace. I'm the one who the faculty member who comes in with an entourage of minority students. Not everyone is in a position to hire a community around them but the number of friends. You need to avoid feeling. Lonely work is smaller than you might think. And the kind of interaction you need is more basic more on that after the break. Okay this is going to be a different kind of add. I've played a personal role in selecting the sponsors for this podcast because they all have interesting cultures their own today. We're going inside the workplace at sap. We were told to calculate or just to perform basic arithmetic operations and I got the highest notes. I got a ten out of ten. This is Nico Newman. When he was in high school in Argentina his favorite subject was computer science. I promised my parents study was going to be a a Robinson cleans the house but like many people on the spectrum. Nico had difficulty connecting with his peers at school so after three years of frustration isolation he approached his parents with proposal dot com. I don't want to go to school anymore because I feel it is not doing good for me. It took some convincing. But they agreed when he dropped out and I have a lot of free time. So that's when I realized that I also liked to to learn by MYSELF NICO. Eagerly dove into online programming tutorials. I got off the fundamental floor. Howard computer works. How do you run a program? How efficiently manage suffer resources after two years of teaching himself to Code Nico went on the Job Hunt? His psychologist encouraged him to apply to sap. I was selected to be the first wait with the L. decent work programme. Sap's autism at work programme leverage the unique perspectives of people on the spectrum to foster innovation through the program. Niko joined the accounts payable department as an analyst. His job was to process thousands of invoices a day one day NICO had an idea to make the process more efficient an idea that would put his coding skills to good use. He wanted to bring it to his manager but he still felt nervous. Navigating social situations thankfully. Sap had a mentorship system in place to support employees on the spectrum. We are here to help our colleagues in many different ways now not only to socialize but also to solve any problems. That's Bianca Nicos Mentor. He asked her for guidance. He says hey. We are doing these process in a very manual way. So I'm going to automate these and I say okay. Well go ahead. Research suggests that when managers give people freedom instead of saying. That's not my job. They're more likely to expand their roles to take the initiative to develop and implement new ideas with his manager's approval Nico spent two months building a computer program that would automate how. Sap process invoice payments. When he was finished he ran some tests at work. The efficiency gains were huge. It was really successful. We have three full lace on. We reduced time of processing to just a couple of minutes accounts payable started using Nicos Program regularly then a CO worker nominated him for the Hasso plattner founders award. The most important recognition for innovation and employees can receive at sap after multiple rounds of interviews and voting. Nico was selected as a finalist. He was invited to the award ceremony in. Germany Newman Patnaik and you have. I think one hundred thousands of employees watching the events. You can imagine how it feels overwhelming to so many people watching you congratulating so really thankful was like a Rockstar. You know everybody wants to ask him for self fees now. He super confidence you know. I'm I'm really proud of him. Change everything my idea was to develop these just for the era that I want for identity. That was going to be this huge impact today. Nico is finally getting to do what he's always wanted programming full-time for sap. Or I think the most important thing was support from Connex giving flexibility on the the time to develop this and see the results on once. You have the results. You can just continue to expand. Sap is a trailblazer for autism inclusion in the workplace and is inspiring other organizations through the SAP autism inclusion pledge. It's no surprise that. Sap earned over two hundred employer of choice awards in two thousand nineteen checkout careers. Sap learn more about experience management solutions for your employees and customers at sap dot com slash. Work Life in my first year Grad School. I was struggling to get my research accepted in journals and feel accepted by my new classmates sitting alone at my desk over. The December holidays feeling isolated in the midst of a cold gray Michigan winter. I made a list of the one hundred people who mattered most of my life and sent them each a note telling them what I appreciated most about them. Suddenly I didn't feel alone anymore looking back. One hundred emails in one week was a little intense but to this day. It's one of the most meaningful things I've ever done. I learned that it doesn't take a lot of effort to go from feeling. Lonely to feeling connected. Even if it's from a distance I was inspired by a mentor. Who encouraged me to think about the people who energize me? I just was very aware that certain interactions with people would light me up and others would almost in the moment. Well there would be neutral or deplete me and I just knew I wanted to hang around more with the people that let me up or try to figure out. What could I do? That would make people light me up. This is Jane Dutton. She was my dissertation chair and she has a remarkable gift for making connections with people and for people. If the University of Michigan was a solar system she'd be the Sun. Jane was the one who introduced me to the idea of a micro community. She doesn't just nurture relationships. She studies them to her. Specialty is high quality connections. I mean you know them subjectively because they literally light you up. They leave you in the moment. Feeling more energizer. A greater sense of tally. And similarly you know when the opposite of that a low quality connection is one where you actually in the moment Phil de energized or depleted. I often think of a wilted flower. You know that just starts droop kind of after that interaction. Low-quality connections are like the mentors. In Harry Potter they suck the life out of work and reduce our performance. I wondered if Jane thanks. High-quality connections might be an antidote to loneliness at work. I mean loneliness as I understand. It is really about the absence of connection. I think it could be an antidote to part of the problem of loneliness. Loneliness is a complex issue. But there are some simple steps you can take it might make cadet even if and maybe especially if you're working remotely. Our highest quality connections often with friends at work and research has shed light on. Just how many friends you need in order to not feel lonely and he guesses. It's one one work friend. Just one person who you feel connected to you and understood by one person to share some ups and downs with at work. That's all it takes. James Research suggests that a relationship doesn't have to be lasting to create a high quality connection. You can experience it in a momentary interaction with someone you don't know very well a distant co worker or even a stranger as long as the interaction leaves you feeling seen you know forty seconds of interaction. A positive carrying interaction has measurable impacts on both both people. Forty seconds forty seconds. Jane and her collaborators. Find that in high quality. Connections aren't just more energized. Ineffective we also learn and grow more. Fortunately there are possibilities for high quality connections everywhere. Jane looks for these in her daily life. Actually she had won the day. We spoke with the receptionist at Michigan public radio where she was settling in for our interview. Yes wonderful energy. Creating things she did is she could see that. I was trying to write down some notes and she just asked me the simple question. Do you need a pen can get you a pen and I just felt seen kind of understood and again in the wake of Preparing to sort of think about this interview where. I'm a little bit nervous. I could actually feel my stress level down as I got that sort of affirmation that I am a person. We're seeing and trying to help in that moment. After seeing the impact of high quality connections on our work lives Jane created an exercise to help people learn how to build them rapidly. Oh I love this exercise. This is this is my killer exercise. It's something you can do almost any work setting you gather a group of People. Ideally from different parts of your organization and ask them to pair up with someone they barely know or don't know at all they take turns trying to form a high quality connection in that moment with one another they don't get any directions and they only have one minute each and it's unbelievable what happens. I mean it's so great because the energy of the room just like food afterward. Jane leads the discussion asking what worked for people. And I say okay now you each give one each other one piece of feedback about what you saw worked in building a high quality connection to you and then boom again energy just goes because we rarely get feedback about how you know how little things that we do actually affect. Someone's sense of connection with you given that positive feedback about what you did. Well is a helpful intervention in itself. I do this exercise in the classroom and it's always a hit with students. They're often surprised to discover that they already have some intuitive skills for building. Rapid high-quality can actions can work somewhere. Where colleagues tend to keep to themselves to find out we went to a CO working space in New York called Pencil works at Pencil works. It's been a struggle to bring people together. The buildings community manager Nathan. Windsor has been grappling with this for a while. I mean we'VE WE'VE RUN GAME nights here every Friday. For years people show up and we do you know Happy Hours Bugler show. Everyone is really in their own office. They're really in their own head and they have a meeting to get to buy like welcoming Brooklyn right like the loneliness thing is very real. Developed Co working spaces are an extreme place to look at Loneliness. People often go. They're searching for a sense of community but find that they have little in common with those around them. They may not work on a team together. Belong to the same organization or share mission and culture ironically it can be lonelier than working alone at Pencil works. The long floors are divided into smaller offices with glass walls. You can see into each of them. But that doesn't make it easier to interact our producers Constanza and Jessica went looking for people to participate in Jane's exercise looking at it. Hi You guys have fifteen minutes free cookies. Finally the promise of Free Baked Goods secured a few participants. Yeah okay producers explained. The exercise to the group assembled try to form a high quality connection in one minute. If you were in there shoes what would you say? How would you go about building an instant connection? Here's how one pair approach Jessica Hester Emma Journalist and best carry. I'm an HR manager Jessica Best Work for the same company but they barely know each other. I'm excited or interested to know what the last thing you read or watch. Wasim gave you like a ton of joy I I know I have no idea. Was there anything that you regularly go back to like when it's cold and you're bummed in like you just need. So how do you create a rapid connection? Here's what Jane Dutton is listening for. What is the first movie that was made? What was the first question? Did they go to something that sort of routine like? Where'd you grow up or did they? Do they go to a a question? That really communicates deep interest in kind of positive regard for another. Like what is the most meaningful thing that happened to you this week? I feel bad that I stressed out with my question that that's like a personal problem. That's really interesting illustrative. Because you don't know things will trip someone up when you're making like what strikes one person is casual. Conversation can be a nerve. That another person has its roddy. Don't know about just a good exchange shows that connection doesn't always form automatically but when they debriefed about it. The dynamic change often talked to people while microwave lunch and I always Mike for three minutes so I talk to people as long like I often. Whoever standing by the microwave talks doing for three minutes and then I'm like I guess I have to eat my office by myself which I don't. I don't know I do that. I should do that if you want to. Build a rapid high-quality connection the research points to a few effective strategies. One is looking for uncommon commonalities similarities. You share that are rare. A second is asking. Those open ended questions showing real curiosity about the other person. As long as you don't put them on the spot or cross any lines. Third is self disclosure sharing something about yourself. That's what Jessica is responding to you. Invest opened up about her sad desk. Lunch let's hear how it worked out for another pair. Alex massie journalist. I'm Jeff Harris photographer. They worked for different companies and have never met before but that doesn't Stop Jeff from opening up. It's already infant. Liberte emotional about it because it's I do experience a lot of isolation in the workplace. I used to work with a group of people and over the years. Industries Changed Talker. And so I find myself to be alone. I miss that sense of Camaraderie. You've already shared something. That's a good vulnerable. But I'm kind of curious. What is the biggest challenge? You're facing at work right now or the thing that's like on the top of your head the most it's for me personally. It's the same thing it's about making fat effort to get myself out in the world more to be around other people it hits here was self disclosure. I felt that the connection was opened up or embraced when Alex took notice that I think what really helped was the fact that this was an exercise and that kind of gave us permission to act differently than we would otherwise. We're going to be like fully present and make eye contact in a way that you might not like in a casual encounter. There's something built into this exercise. That sometimes hard to recreate in everyday life which is the mutuality is designed into it. It's almost like starting on a second date where you show up and you know the first one is opted in. They're excited to interact with you. I wondered how you go about creating that outside the exercise. Yeah we have to prime ourselves partly about the positive potential and the other person you can't force a high quality interaction with anyone and everyone you encounter some people just in their heads closed off. But if your team organization isn't doing anything about loneliness on a larger scale you might be able to brighten your own day and other people's days by simply engaging with them in small ways wasted acknowledged them and make you feel connected to Jane. I introduced me to the idea of high quality. Connections found it liberating because relationships. Whether they're with colleagues or friends they take a lot of work and realizing that there are all these opportunities to feel a momentary connection with people. Even if I might never see them again was free. Loneliness won't be solved through one action but small interactions day by day. Are the building blocks of real connection to the people around you. I love the idea that you know in every interaction. We have with other people. We can leave a trace. That makes that person better off. That's such a beautiful statement. It's magnificent it's just and it's true. Next time on workless used to interview the same way everybody else. Two people sitting across the table lying to each other for a couple of do you think it's that bad. I think we're all trying to puff each other. Should we kill the job interview? Or reinvented work. Life is hosted by Adam. Grant shows produced by Ted with transmitter. Media Team includes Colin Helms Bread Cone Geno Donald and Stanza Gerardo Grace Rubinstein. Shell Quinn's Angela. Chang Anfield this episode was produced by Jessica Glazer. Our show is mixed by Rick Quan original music by Huntsville. Sue Allison Leyton Brown at stories produced by tonight Apple Street studios special thanks to our sponsors accenture better up tilting and sap for their research. Thanks to Jeffrey Sanchez. Bergson colleagues relationships at work the CONDO SILICON SEAGAL bar stayed on low. Made us at work Julia Holman Stat. I'm the health implications of wellness. Tracy Dumez Kathy Phillips. Nancy Rothbart Paul Ingram and Michael Morris and company parties and happy hours. Jerry Burgan colleagues uncommon commonalities Karen Kwan colleagues on asking questions Carey Gibson and colleagues on self disclosure. And if you're interested vache. Murthy just published a book about loneliness. It's called together. If you could say one thing to someone who feels lonely. What would you say to them? I would say that because you're lonely does not mean that you are broken many of us experience loneliness and if you're lonely you're certainly not alone.
April 23, 2019: Democrat John Hickenlooper On 2020; Sri Lanka Shuts Down Some Social Media
"This message comes from here and now's sponsor ember. Wave ember wave the new personal thermostat designed to help you feel cooler or warmer, anywhere. Learn more at ember wave dot com and take fifty dollars off during their mother's day sale ember wave a breakthrough in temperature from NPR and WB. You are I'm Jeremy Hobson. I'm Robin young. It's here and now congress is in recess, but that has not paused in intense debate among House Democrats about whether to impeach President Trump last night. House speaker Nancy Pelosi urged her party to avoid it. But other Democrats say they have to at least initiate impeachment proceedings. Even if the Republican controlled Senate is unlikely to convict the president remember an impeachment is just to trial because House Democrats some of them say this is their constitutional duty. Mara Liasson is here. She's NPR's national political correspondent Mara. Hi, robyn. And I let's go back to fifth grade and reminder cells why this is a house issue. Impeachment is like an indictment the house impeaches. And then it goes to the Senate which acts like a jury to decide whether or not to convict or remove the president. Yeah. So that's how it works outward. So even if the house impeached that would mean, they would indict the president the Senate because it's controlled by Republicans would not remove him. Right. So last night's conference call speaker Pelosi gathering her caucus together on the phone. What do you know about how that conversation went? Well, speaker Pelosi is not saying there should not be impeachment. What she's saying is we should not immediately open formal impeachment hearings? She's saying there are a lot of other ways to hold the president accountable. Some of those ways are already underway. A bar is coming attorney journal bar's gonna come up to the hill to testify, so we'll special counsel Muller. The House Judiciary committee has already subpoenaed. Don, Mcgann, the former White House counsel to come up. There's a big fight now between house committees and the White House over the president's tax returns, his financial records, the the person in the White House who's in charge of security clearances is refusing to come up and testify. So this is going to be a long process. There's going to be a lot of investigating of the president. Whether it leads to the kind of bipartisan consensus that Nancy Pelosi says is a prerequisite for impeachment. We don't know. Well, not long after her call Senator Elizabeth Warren called for. For impeachment at that CNN townhall for presidential candidates. Are so many of them now on the democratic side? They're doing them in batches and Senator Kamala Harris was there as well in other presidential candidate. And she echoed worn. I believe that we need to get rid of this president. That's why I'm running for the to become president of the United States. So that is part of the premise, obviously of my point. But I think we have very good reason to believe that there is an investigation that has been conducted which has produced evidence that tells us that this president and his administration engaged in obstruction of Justice. I believe congress should take the steps towards the peach mint, and she and other Democrats are pointing to things like the mole report saying that the president asked someone to, you know, stop the investigation. But then you have people like Bernie Sanders seemed to say move on what what's your sense more? If this is going to be a twenty twenty campaign issue. Bernie Sanders isn't saying move on. Bernie Sanders is saying he's afraid that impeachment would play into Donald Trump's hands and be used as a. Way to to rally the Republican base in it, would it would be. It would have a political backlash against Democrats. Look inside the democratic primary people are using the impeachment issue either to stand out or to connect with parts of the democratic base that wants impeachment, but it's not an ideological issue. Otherwise, the the the the most leftist candidate Bernie Sanders would before it. So it's it's more complicated. I do think that Donald Trump and his advisors see it as a campaign issue because they would like to say that this is a purely partisan political exercise and the Democrats are trying to get him out of office because they won't accept his election. There are other Democrats who say we're eighteen months from an election. Let's let the voters decide whether Donald Trump should continue to be president or not speaking of them, according to recent polling. This is the morning consult poll a majority of Americans oppose impeachment, but a majority of Democrats support it so is this Democrats looking at constituents in some. Cases. Yes. But what was really interesting about that poll? Even though fifty nine percent of Democrats said that they supported impeachment that was down twelve points from the seventy one percent of Democrats who said they supported impeachment back in January. Now, why the drop it could be that more and more people are learning the civics lesson. You started with that? Oh impeachment isn't removal. They maybe they thought impeachment was the same thing of removal once they learn it isn't they're not for it anymore. And also a lot of Democrats would like to focus on healthcare and gun control and climate change. And they don't want impeachment to be a distraction from that. But so right now Democrats want it, but not as many as as did a couple of months ago, you heard from any Republicans even maybe off the record. So you wouldn't name them now. But who are saying, you know, maybe there is reason for impeachment. You know, maybe they do want somebody else in there. I don't think there's any Republican who is for President Trump being impeached. I think there are some Republicans who think that if the house impeached him, it would be a political benefit to them. But the president himself who tweets a lot about impeachment. Yeah. He doesn't want it to happen. But he definitely is worried about it. He's obsessed with it and rattled by it. Mara liasson. Thanks so much. Thank you. Well, today, the Islamic state claimed responsibility for the series of bombings that killed more than three hundred people at churches in hotels across Sri Lanka on Easter Sunday. Meanwhile, the Sri Lankan government has not said when it lifted ban on social media that had put in place after the attacks to stop the spread of what had called false news reports for more on that part of the story. Let's go to our weekly guide to the world of tech Recode. Cara Swisher is Recode's editor at large. I care. Hi, how you doing doing? Well, and you write that when you heard that the Sri Lankan government temporarily blocked access to some social media sites like Facebook and YouTube after the bombings your I thought was good. Why? Well, you know, it's such an anathema to me that I said this because a lot of the, you know, when the shutdowns happen of of social media over the world over the past decades really now, and it's always an autocratic government. That's trying to you know, quilt descent, and that's wrong. And I obviously Emma journalist, and I I'm not a first amendment absolutist. But I certainly think that it's really important that these people have an ability to speak on these platforms. But what's happened is the people running these platforms and the companies that are running it have not taken enough responsibility for what's running over their platforms. And so they're not exactly free speech. So just a cacophony of often malevolent and false information. And they're trying to stop it. But when you shoes crisis it creates. Really problematic situation for governments which are trying to calm things down and the possibility more violence. What are the companies think about the fact that the sites were shut down in SRI locker really made a not that much noise. They said they really want to get back up because they're important to communications between the families and who were involved in the tragedy and that's hundred percent true. In some of these countries. Unlike the US, no Facebook be he's the defacto newspaper. It's the telephone system. It's the Email mail system. And so it becomes the everything system, and therefore is very very liable to be abused by those who don't have a good intent and there's history here in Sri Lanka to the government. They're actually blocked access to Facebook in the past when it thought posts were inciting anti Muslim violence this time. Yes, they blocked before. There was any evidence of any social media violence. Right. And there was already Steph coming over it with like who because these this is a tit for tat. I think this group has just said is because of the what happened in New Zealand, you know, and of course, New Zealand. Had its own issues. And that was a massive problem for sites like Facebook and YouTube because the first of all the shooter this murderous man used social media to get his his killings out. I mean, he was before during and after essentially in and you can't blame. Obviously this killer is to blame. But the fact matter is the internet was critic and social media as a critical part of his plan. And so, you know, New Zealand did not stop, but they were certainly moving to to hold these companies accountable as are other countries. Do you think that this should be the go to approach now when there's something like this that the the country should say, let's shut down the social media sites. I think wh where we've gotten is. There's no other choice like what can we do because they're certainly not policing these sites in the correct way. And and maybe it's absolutely impossible. Maybe they've I believe they've architect them in a way that it's impossible that, you know, for viral and growth, and you know, what the line I had was when you traffic and outrage you get death. And so if that's the case, you either stop trafficking and outrage or you. You shut it down. And unfortunately, shutting down does work if only temporarily do you think though that we're reaching some kind of a tipping point? Now, I feel like these days when we're talking to you or other people at Recode, we're talking about tech news in general. It's almost always about something bad that the social media sites are are doing or maybe that that they're just involved in they had nothing to do with. But something like this. Well, you know, they are involved in this. It's just the ability for E, they have knocked the lid off of controls of anything and had it, and it's great for regular people to be able to talk to each other. And for the benign uses of these platforms, which are wonderful. But the fact is they allowed false players on these platforms. Malevolent players were using propaganda. Who are using you know, Botts, whatever it is whether it's infecting the US elections or elections somewhere else whether it's creek fomenting hatred somewhere. Whether it's creating rumors that aren't true these have real life impact. And I think these. Who architecture? These things did not think clearly enough about what happens when that happens. And there's all kinds of things regulators can do certainly eater finding them or holding them liable for this content or shutting it down. And so we don't want to get to the shutdown period. And I just interviewed Nancy Pelosi the speaker of the house, and she shot her hands full with a lot of other things, obviously. But one of the issues is section two thirty for example, the Communications Decency Act the United States, which gives these platforms broad immunity for what flows over their platforms. She called it a gift that they've been abusing, you know. That's like, hey, pay attention. There's there can be regulations all over the world. Whatever it is. It's coming for them. And so they have to really think hard about what that means in how they can rain in some of the worst parts of these platforms Swisher editor at large at Recode care. Thank you. Thanks a lot. We're offering all the presidential candidates running in twenty twenty a chance to come on the show and talk with us today. John Hickenlooper, former governor of Colorado and democratic presidential candidate governor welcome to here. Now glad to be on Germay. Thanks for having me. Well, I want to start with what's been in the news last several days, which is the mullahs report. How big issue would you make this if you're the nominee in twenty twenty? Well, I think it's obviously a large issue. No matter where you are as a citizen of of America. I mean, take the facts that no one's ogling about the Trump campaign welcomed the assistance of a hostile foreign power to interject themselves and try and change the outcome of our elections that to me that's unthinkable. And then of course, they lied about it, and then they've they took steps to prevent the truth from coming out. So we should expel. Checked more from our commander and chief do you think the Democrats should push for impeachment? Well, I think the the key things that we need to focus on. I I think is that we have to really push for an unredacted copy of the report that goes to congress. I think Mr. Muller should testify in front of congress. And then we can see in in gory detail and in high contrast color, more clearly what went on and make a decision about impeachment. You are a former geologist for an oil and gas company, you co founded a brewery in nineteen eighty eight you became the mayor of Denver, then governor of the state of Colorado. What would be your single biggest priority if you become president of the United States? Well, you know, I I'm running for president. Because I I think we're national crisis of division. I don't think we've been this divided since probably since the civil war, and it's prevent. Us from dealing with some of these really big challenges. The incredible inflation for healthcare costs over the last thirty years. The way the entire workplace is going to be disrupted by artificial intelligence and automation climate change. We're we are rapidly approaching a point of irreversible damage to our planet, and yet somehow were not able to even find the smallest common ground. What would you do on the issue of climate change? I know that in the past because of your support of fracking there are some environmentalists who've called you Franken Looper. Yeah. The problem isn't fracking, I understand why people want to get out of hydrocarbons immediately. But most of those people are still driving automobiles what we've done in Colorado, and I'd hold our record up against any other state. We're able to get the oil and gas industry and the environmental community to sit down and negotiate what we call methane regulations. But you know, methane is twenty five to forty times worse for climate change than carbon dioxide. So we ended up getting the only gas industry to pay sixty million dollars a year to address these fugitive emissions of methane. We've just in the process still now closing to coal fired electrical generation plants in southern Colorado, replacing them with wind solar and for the first time in the country batteries. Do you think that in the future there should be a point at which the US the goal of the United States is to have no more power coming from oil and gas in any way at some point. We want to get to a clean. As clean and energy system as possible, and that's going to require all kinds of innovations. Some of which we've never even seen to this day. It'll take a while before we are completely free of all hydrocarbons. Let's be really honest. I don't see any way that that could possibly ever happen by twenty thirty. But I do share the urgency that we've got to make that transition much more rapidly than what we're seeing take place today. It doesn't get the headlines that some of these other issues get but the leading cause of death in the United States for men and women is heart disease. According to the CDC one in four people die of it. What would you do? Or is there anything that you would do as president to deal with obesity and heart disease? Oh, absolutely. And I think our system rewards when you have a medical crisis. That's when hospitals and doctors and pharmaceutical companies, that's when they're when they get paid a lot of money. There's no great economic reward for the system if we convince citizens to avoid or change their lifestyle, so they don't become vulnerable for heart attacks, if they don't have high blood pressure. So we need to change that whole system. One thing we've done in Colorado is really promote aggressively outdoor recreation. Get more people walking more people hiking. We've got to bring exercise back into elementary middle and high schools. There's gotta. Be a recess. We've got to become more active. And instead we're going just the opposite direction. You know, the big financial incentive for for our system is to get kids to spend more time looking in their in their cell phones. That's not healthy at all. What do you think of the idea of Medicare for all when it comes to health care? Well, I believe in universal coverage. And I think we have to provide a public option of some sort, and maybe that'll be Medicare or some combination of Medicare and Medicare Advantage could also be expanding Medicaid. But I don't think I mean, the roughly one hundred sixty million people that get their healthcare coverage through private insurance most of it through their workplace. So I don't think we're going to take. I don't see government trying away the healthcare insurance that people are happy with from eighty one hundred one hundred twenty million people. So if we provide a public option, and that is better care or Medicare Advantage or some combination and Medicare. Grows, and it scale it's costs go down and becomes what everybody's chooses. And then we evolve into Medicare for all, but it's an evolution. It's not a revolution. How much time in your life? If you spent outside the United States, oh a fair amount. You know when I was young. I was I wouldn't say obsessed, but I spent a lot of time in Latin America when I was a graduate student as a geologist I worked in Costa Rica for about ten months, I've always been someone who explores new territories. And most of that's been in Latin America, but I've also been multiple times to Japan, and Israel and Europe Asia, you learn about your own culture by immersing yourself and other cultures and when it comes to foreign policy. China is the world's second largest economy now were in a trade war with China at the moment. Do you think that the US should actively try and stop China from becoming the largest? Economy, the largest military power in the world. And if so how well let's let me first say that China was cheating on agreements. China was stealing intellectual property from American companies. I think we needed to address that that being said getting into a trade war, you know, in that trade war. We in many ways have withdrawn from all of our international agreements will allowing China to have an open field in South, America and Africa in central Asia. And they are now making investments in infrastructure and building relationships that we're going to regret deeply I mean, China is so large both geographically and by population. Ultimately, slowly, they will become larger than United States. We have to make sure that as they grow. We understand and are able to help shape that growth so that long term we have a vision of how we can co exist and not be rivals and not get to the brink of. Engagement. I think what President Trump has created with the trade war is pushing us to situations where we do get closer to armed conflict. You've referred to yourself as an extreme moderate. Have you ever voted for Republican for president? I have not voted for a Republican for president. Although I I can say with a straight face and true on St. I feel that I've always voted for the best person. You know, all my I always tell this funny story that all my grandparents all my aunts and uncles were all Republicans. But my mother was widowed twice before. She turned forty years old. And she thought government, maybe should be smaller, but the government had to work and she raised four Democrats. Speaking of your family. I want to ask you one more thing. Which is that your father died when you were very young. How did that how much of an impact did that have on who you are today? Well, my father was a great raconteur. He loved telling stories he was an engineer. So he's he was a person comfortable with numbers, and and economics I've gotten so much of who I am from him. But he got cancer. When I was I think I was four and a half or five. So I don't have that many memories of him. But he died just after I turned eight and his vac his absence was something I never could identify. But it was there. And it certainly created in me, an empathy I felt marginalized in many ways, and I became very empathetic with other people that were the kids in school that didn't fit in as well socially with everybody else. I I was a kid in my class at tried to be friends with everybody. And in that process. I think I I learned how to listen to people better. My mother told us when we were kids you can't control what life. Throws at you. Right. You can't what what terrible things come. You can't control, but you can control how you respond whether it makes you stronger or weaker so governor Hickenlooper as you look forward to this campaign. Wh where are you going to be focusing most of your efforts? Well, Colorado has a special relationship with Iowa. We have so many people in Colorado that have moved here from Iowa come here for a few years, then go back to Iowa. So we're gonna spend a lot of time in Iowa. And I think a lot of time in New Hampshire. Just because my mother grew up in the depression. She never bought address. She's so everything for most of her life. She'd never bought address. And I think New Hampshire has that same sense of frugality in in many places. So I I think who I am will fit in well with how New Hampshire writes feel about who they are that is John Hickenlooper. The former governor of Colorado and now a democrat running for president. Thank you so much for joining us now. Thank you so much Jarvi. I appreciate it. This message comes from here. And now sponsor ember. Wave ember wave the revolutionary personal thermostat. That is designed to help you feel cooler or warmer at the press of a button ember wave can put you in control in places like you're freezing office uncomfortable. Airplanes restaurants, trains, cafes and more named one of time magazine's best inventions of two thousand eighteen learn more at ember wave dot com and use code NPR to save fifty dollars at checkout ember wave control your come from. According to an annual report from the government that's out this week. Social security will run out of money in twenty thirty five Medicare twenty twenty six that means if congress doesn't act future retirees would only get three quarters of their scheduled benefits from social security, and so far reaching it solution has been very difficult for Democrats and Republicans who differ sharply over how best to reform programs that are a lifeline for many Americans for more. Let's bring in Allie Vel, she MSNBC anchor in economics correspondent Halley, Jeremy. So this is a report that comes at every year, and every year, we have the same discussion about the fact that these programs are in real trouble in not the not too distant future. Is anyone going to do anything as a result of this report? So, you know, it's not the forefront of most discussions. There are definitely other election, you know, seasons where you hear social security being discussed, but there is a fairly active caucus in the house and the Senate MO. Mostly Democrats who are trying to deal with this. Here's the the problem is that in twenty twenty there's going to be more money paid out of social security than brought in. Now, the good news is that was supposed to happen in twenty eighteen. It hasn't happened since nineteen eighty two the bad news is as you go further out the there's a trust fund to cover these shortfalls like we're going to have in two thousand twenty but that short a trust fund will be exhausted in about fifteen years. And at that point, either congress has to do something to increase the amount of money in the trust fund or people as you just described will get less money. This is a very big problem for people at the lower end of the income scale who don't have 4._0._1._K's who don't have pensions, and for whom social security is kind of all of the money. They have in retirement, right? We know that most people in this country do not have near the amount of retirement savings that they're told by experts that they should have. So so security becomes a real lifeline. That's correct. And according to the fed the. Number of US workers the share of US workers who are covered by traditional employer. Sponsored pension plans as we know has been declining dramatically for the past few decades, a lot of that shifted to 4._0._1._K's, but remember how much of our economies part-time contract and gig right there, isn't any retirement spending. So and again, it it completely correlates to how much money you have for those people under fifty who are in the middle Cortel of income. The middle fifty percent social security is going to amount to between fifty and sixty five percent of their total retirement wealth, but for the bottom twenty five percent, social security will be all of their retirement wealth. And that's going to be a big problem. If in fifteen years, it doesn't it's not able to pay out. What it's you know, what it's supposed to. Okay, we could spend a whole hour on what each side wants to do about this problem. So what I want to ask you instead is is any country that's dealing with an aging population. Have has anybody figured out a good solution to this? Not a good solution. But keep in mind in in Canada and the UK and in northern European countries. A lot of other expenses are taken care of because of social structure, so you in the years leading up to retirement, you're not paying out as much in healthcare or in education costs for your kids. But you know, China's pension fund is going to be insolvent by twenty thirty five Germany Austria, France, they also spend a high percentage on retirement and disability like Medicaid things like that. So no, it's just that the US like in healthcare pays more of its GDP for this than other countries. Do a very large percent. Yeah. Very large percent at his alley Val. She MSNBC anchor and economics correspondent alley. I'm sure they'll have this figured out by the time report comes back next year. Thanks so much. When you think of racial injustice, you may think of housing or the criminal Justice system, but there's also an environmental Justice movement. A few decades old now born out of studies showing communities of color and poor whites are more likely to also be home to hazardous waste sites. And landfills in one thousand nine hundred ninety the EPA began looking at the environment through the lens of race and class. President George H W Bush created an office of environmental Justice at the CIA to listen to local concerns funnel grant money into local projects, President Clinton declared environmental injustice violation of the Civil Rights Act that thinking stalled in the George W Bush administration picked up again under President Obama. But now President Trump's fiscal year. Twenty twenty proposed budget would cut EPA funding by thirty one percent. The biggest cut of any federal agency. Doctor Robert Bullard has been watching this history, and is a part of it. He's now a distinguished professor of urban planning and environmental policy at Texas southern unit. Versity now in a few minutes. We're going to go micro and here from an environmental Justice or environmental racism activist in Saint James, Louisiana. But we start with Dr Bullard, welcome. Thank you. Well, you are often described as the father of environmental Justice. I would say that maybe they should ask your wife is the mother the two because heart of the started for you in the nineteen seventies. When she was bringing a lawsuit and ask you to help, our that's correct. I was asked to collect data four a lawsuit that she had filed that was challenging the location of and this will landfill in a predominantly black middle class community here in Houston, and I had ten students in my research methods class at Texas Southern University. And we did that study in nineteen seventy nine and you went find that five out of five landfills in Houston were in black neighborhoods, six out of eight incinerators in black neighborhoods. I mean, it just the stats just kept coming. Well, you know, you can't get any more perfect. Than five out of five. That's batting a thousand what we found is that over forty years from the thirties up until nineteen seventy eight eighty two percent of all the garbage dumped in Houston was dumped in black neighborhoods and to understand you went more broadly, you found city owned smelters located in black and Brown neighborhoods in Dallas, Alabama on the largest hazardous waste facility in a town. That was ninety five percent black. Explain why historically this happen. I mean, we understand our history, and we understand the segregation of people of color in impoverished areas. But it also has to do with power that usually these areas are run by white politicians. Well, if you look at the case of Houston, it was a black middle class neighborhood of homeowners. And if you talk about where locally on wanted land uses such as Landfields incinerators, they generally follow the path of least resistance and historically African Americans in the south were not given the right? Vote. They couldn't voice their opposition in a way that would influence stopping these facility. And so it was a pattern that's tantamount to environmental racism. Well, then as you continue on again, if people are living in areas, and they're politicians that people making decisions about that area are not living there or are maybe not truly representing them. They may end up as you said with these decisions being made somewhere else about where they live. That's correct. And it was in nineteen Ninety-one when Dr Benjamin Chavis at the United church of Christ pulled together a dozen of us to plan the first national people of color environmental leadership summit in Washington DC, and we developed seventeen principles of environmental Justice at that summit in ninety one. And the first principle is that people must speak for themselves, and that's only fair just an equitable. So what do you think has to happen now specifically when it comes to environmental injustice, well when we look. At the assaults on environmental regulations and protection. It's basically an assault on all of us. And I think climate change is one of those things that make that really make this real. And so we have to all work on these issues. Let's talk to Berlet. I gotta ask you everyone. White black Brown is now threatened by climate change. I wonder if there's a part of you saying, well, you know, if you only hadn't written it off as a problem, just, you know, for blacks and people of color in the poor while, you know, this this whole idea of finding out discovery, and translating that inflammation. So that people can can see it for themselves. It's like very few people arguing with whether or not they believe in gravity, gravity is not something that you believe in Israel. What keeps me going in this movement is the fact that every social movement that has been successful as had a strong youth and student components that to me gives me hope and also make sure that keeps us optimistic. Data Robert Bullard, a distinguished professor of urban planning and environmental policy at Texas Southern University. Dr thank you so much. My pleasure. Let's bring in Travis London. Now, a member of rise Saint James a community advocacy group fighting pollutants from oil and gas industries in Saint James, Louisiana, activism, something he kind of fell into family members worked for DOW Chemical. He's concerned about an expanding CF industries ammonia planned he also opposed the bayou bridge pipeline which cuts through parts of Louisiana and Travis. I understand you're right. Smack in the middle of this eighty five mile stretch. They are known as cancer alley. You'll smell. Yeah. This runs from Baton Rouge to New Orleans, and it's got something like one hundred and fifty plants and refineries. Look you and others fought the bio bridge pipeline you had some successes. There was a stay. But ultimately, the construction was approved by a judge does that feel like you and others have failed because the. Pipeline was built oh, not necessarily in a sense 'cause we bought a Brigadier coalition raise a lot of awareness. In regard, the pipe mass of unsaved, the really all compared to any other transportation of oil engaged, and we show a high the bigger environmental impact with those incidents rather than the ones on roads. He in other words more incidents when pipelines than incidents carrying the same kind of product in trucks on the road Agassi when always Bill from a pipeline into the water system that definitely hall the clean up the various incidents across the United States with the people that did the by bridge pipeline that spilled audience all Ohio in Pennsylvania and stuff like that that it will harder clean up. Look there's a lot of statistics to back up just how much pollution hazardous material. There is there in cancer alley where you are. But what do you say to people who say building a pipeline produces jobs having plants? Reduces jobs. Most of the times the job that do health. They often they normally give it to people out of state ready in-state, and they will not have that Sam sentimental value for our community. Like we do. We'll Travis London you've got four kids. And I'm sure you're worried about their health. Some would say why don't you move? All I still lead the community could still be saved. So I brought the attention to my town about sea of industries being the largest mind producing plane in the world. So they're really trying to focus on further on creatine fertilizer with a more Nya. So they kinda sound like the crazy Duff cousin of Massango. You're saying you brought you brought attention to a plant with the ammonia industry kind of flagging a little bit. They're turning the fertilizer, you're saying, and that's your even more concerned about that. And it also produced plastics in all argon, so all with the big old. Expansion. I we all know for sure ill. They even make in some of the stuff a plastic in sampling. We know you organized a memorial for people in your area who passed away from cancer do know a lot of people. And are you able to draw a line from these cancers to living in cancer alley mal family, for instance, my grandfather, he what's after watts? He was working for dial. He dialed from a best thing with turn cancel where he died in two thousand one or two and this was as best as poisoning. Yes, ma'am. An I he he's teaching she Dafur cancel it. Hit three other people commuted Al close to that on divan ship Potanin council, which kind of hurt me. Well, a so what are you fighting now Travis what what was your goal now where Mogollon is dead. All what I do is. Join a lot of different organizations of Mitchell. People understand that water is needed for. Anything that you do cause some communists had been seen at goes into the water benzene is now for the chemical that mess with the mining Conrail, which give kids all low cognitive skills to make sure I've heard you you're you're saying that there's a facility that's washing things with the chemical benzene. But then that goes into the water system and then kids drink that. And you've made the connection between that and their cognitive abilities their thinking, and so this is information that you are trying to bring to people is man, I show people how water bring about like d different issues when they put looney Travis London, again, a member of rice, Saint James the community advocacy group in Louisiana Travis we wish you the best of luck there. And thanks so much for talking to us about it. You're talking. French filmmaker Claire Johnnie has been making movies for more than thirty years. And for most of that time they've been scored by an alternative British band called Tinder sticks. Their latest collaboration is called highlife. It's an outer space fable. And it's also Denise first film in English. Tim grieving reports that the movie is finally bringing the filmmaker and her collaborators some mainstream love in the summer of nineteen ninety-five. Claire Dini had just written the script for Ninette and bony. Coming of age film about a brother and sister. And she wanted to use a song called my sister by tender sticks. Because I've been writing the script listening to my sister every day. Remember? How new mistake. And I couldn't get out. So deneen went to see tender sticks at a concert in Paris. And she found bandleader Stuart Staples backstage after the show taught Tammy it's so sad to give you the right to use a song. Let's do the complete score. Let's share more. But. County. Five or six movie. Story. The musicians had never done a film score. Before says, Stuart Staples who co-founded tender sticks in nineteen Ninety-one out of a band called asphalt ribbons with keyboard player. David Boulter when we were young. We had kind of film scoring pretensions I suppose, and when I first met David in the band this was in Nottingham in mid eighties. He had reference points like, Jon, Barry, and I think David kind of educated as about film music, but actually exchanging ideas with filmmaker cleared any proof to be a challenge at I still that comes from the nose of England, and my English because I'm French it could not understand. So for years we kept talking to each other. And yes, yes. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, we wear like ender standing each other without words there Morse code worked. Staples and his bandmates have scored eight of Denise films from the sort of vampire story. Trouble every day to the romance. Let the sunshine in. The music is a perfect match for the mood of Denise films says Oskar winning moonlight director Barry Jenkins, who's a big fan of the knee tender six collaboration. This is depicted class, very Astaire cold. Art house director makes very quiet films, and yet films, very lush, very rich very involved scores. But the scores work because they're not trying to tell you what to feel their amplifying the feeling the cactus already exhibiting music is not there to emphasize emotional stuff. You know, Newsweek there to be like another voice in the film. The original tender spoke up in two thousand six but Stuart Staples kept scoring these films. Their latest collaboration highlife is a grim story set on board a spacecraft full of criminals who are part of an experiment. Robert Pattinson plays one of them who's raising his infant daughter on the ship. Can. Composer, Stuart Staples says he started imagining in closed spaces, and that was his jumping off point for the score. He brought musicians into studio and tried to capture their instruments reverberating in that space. Also interested in this idea of kind of a random music music. That is composed. There is a composed song. However that Robert Pattinson character sings to his daughter. Patents and is sung in films before. But this time he channeled his inner Stuart Staples. Literally, I would guess to sing each line. Just before I sang it. And I would try my best to imitate his Midland's accent? I stand. Every cook nice truck in that song. Writer director cleared any way may a song for beloved daughter. I think two is such a put of love, you know. Of course, a few minutes earlier than he also said I have to trust him because I'm afraid of stocks. It's very difficult to say note to him because he's fears. You know, it's frightening guy who Denise says sometimes stance scripts better than she does for NPR news. I'm Tim grieving in Los Angeles. Here now is prediction of NPR WB war and association with the BBC World Service. I'm Jeremy Hobson sees here. Now.
LeBron and AD Gone Missing in LA, Raptors Ring and Where Should Tom Brady Go?
"And now Jalen and Jacoby worried about the strong talking get this week respectable animal linter this goal scored thirty points in thirty one minutes and when you're that officiant like Leonard is now the NBA season great game last night between the Lakers and the clippers also underrated underappreciated game between the Pelicans and China has to weigh heavily on Lebron James Psychologically and emotionally remember he's the person that carried that burden it's not the warmest welcome for southern California's on coli but after the Lakers and the clippers in the staple center and we start at the beginning ed the crowd's reaction when Kawai Leonard was introduced he's also the person that did the misstep when he put they put a microphone in front of his face so I noticed some of that still weighs on him also Oh start missing a couple of shots he hits seven straight shots giving the clippers a lead they would relinquish later but they would eventually win this game one or two to one in the entire fourth quarter the best five players in the NBA in a close game against a rival on opening night scored tube points combined took over in the second quarter as you mentioned like a dominant player he is Danny Green took over in the third quarter both teams had their runs offer is available that's another subject for another day they got off to a really good start eleven to two run out of the gate for the purple and Gold Twelve Jalen I know you watch this guided will receive your biggest takeaways some of my biggest takeaways as never overreacted a first game of the year and he's thirty five years old during this year he's in seventeenth year he has to pace himself and on the other side he gone against his junk the raptors and the raptors they really do have some big rings those rings a too big we're gonNA get into all of that the main of Ben in La did not disappoint you owe so much to discuss today we are now in the midst of an act a lot of people in the media and fans are going to do so which you didn't mention this the clippers were without Paul George The Lakers were without Kyle Kuzma agree well look what happened Danny Green had himself a night led to Lakers in scoring five threes in a row at one point then you feel like Lebron was a little too deferential in the fourth quarter as he's been accused of before in his career well truthfully I think the storm of what happened with focus so much on the marquee players and rightfully so the Bron James Anthony Davis but the core of your team usually your guys that are we also have this do you remember yesterday we were talking about someone to kion a player that we thought was really going to perform well for the Lakers to remember exactly who that was Danny Green Oh yeah and then in the fourth quarter the Bron James Anthony Davis isn't he points I'm sorry this two points combined how that economy gets spread out throughout the team Herrell can gig going Lou will get going to Michael Finley going harkness make a couple of CERNA stage on my putting it on wax it's Jalen and Jacoby what is it that we were while the raptors and the Zionist Pelicans went into overtime rounders eventually ended up winning the game there were two performances that really stood out ask and before you know what their bench is really productive kuwa- was dominant when he needed to be in the Los Angeles Lakers showed some one or ability but that's in list raptors so I mentioned this a couple of times already the forward position in particular to four spot is going to be they weren't all wide open shots like we thought he's on the move hitting shots what you see from Danny Green last night the reason why anticipated this is what ends up happening is we the open opportunity for somebody in the eastern conference to claim themselves as an all star Pascal Siaka most improved player last year in scare we're teams don't have super squats so that's going to happen on a nightly basis to a lot of different teams but I'm not worried about the Lakers Jamaica Green I'm sure you meant the spurs with the Raptors finals. MVP Two times over now he gets a chance to play in his own backyard it really created a perfect storm the his head like you said I everything matters when you're an athlete because having that level of support means so very much handler John Rondo this is going to give the Lakers the depth that they seem to not have last night and by the way they can use another shooter off the bench Jamaa firepower adding Paul George gotta deal done I believe so as well and a lot of focus obviously is on the Lakers clippers game but the first game of the night was fascinating as well they were able to land Paul George because I believe and I stayed it had they not been able to trade for him he would not have joined the clippers because they didn't feel like they had this is wild every level the teams usually play better at home versus their record on the road at four guy that won a championship did you gotTa have a signature game and that's what the Raptors had in the finals last year he was one of those guys so you could put him on the floor with Kyle lowry he can make crew shooter gained a lot by playing alongside Kawhi Leonard is the his confidence in his game just took a quantum leap and once they give you that it seemed like he played every single player on the roster I checked of everyone who was available only Jackson Hayes who I really like did not get on the floor what did you think about judges sees it professionals and you know expect I know what I'm getting out of Louisville I know what I'm getting Outta Herald and I knew what I was going to get out of Danny Green look at him doing the take on the jump ball circle whereby was moving around you know how everybody does all their gestures and quietly just sitting there he was I was disappointed in it was Lonzo Ball's because when you talk about playing a lot of people he basically only play half of the game he didn't score double figures in point another thing I wanted to put out there when Leonard Returns to Toronto I need to see two things happened okay one they should retire his number has been expanding over the years and I have to talk about tell me am I just super duper old and washed up and out of touch or are these champs brings getting too big league one season how Masai Jiri adding him knowing that he was probably going to walk at the end of the year that's why I have championship level competitor going to his former team may in Kuwa- Leonard that he was going to show up on the big stage to start the season after the game clipper stock ask Alcyone Fred Vanfleet each had thirty four points and ask him didn't even play in overtime Jalen what did you see from the coli Leonard Kinda putting everybody in and seeing what works well I know what I'm GonNa give from jrue Holiday a seasoned veteran GonNa lock down on the so I'm not worried about his stat line I racer game like the announced that these were the biggest rings and I know Drake Sung about it but these rings are too big I would do it on and off the ball and when he gets going he can play like he did in game one on the other side of the ball with the Pelicans one I saw was Alvin gentry just seemed like who's going to play for me who's GonNa play I'm out of here I don't know man that's not statue where the it is now time for news that matters Arlit Statue Jalen you will never not impressed me with your vast knowledge of statutes news this one you went to can't you know you could feel that like you can feel the intensity there's no doubt about that the Thai loook over to me and said you know just Paul Lights and five dimes and Fred Vanfleet he was got into finals that was constant it was steady and when you win a championship you need e well guess what they did they put a statue outside of the arena with coach Doug Peterson and Nick foles so you mean to tell me aw in the NFL and professional sports that the senior statue analysts didn't let go by win the Philadelphia Eagles won the Super Aints Ingram got to double figures heart I liked the he came off the bench gave him fiftee gave them tim boards but I wanted to see more aggression out of Lonzo Ball particularly what's your number for the rest of my life one hundred and thirty million the office of side absolutely and he didn't finish the game which is what's going to happen to you and you can't shoot free throws but I think that'll change overtime his role expands with the Pelicans and Jalen something sc throw the ball up let's get this on and that was Taiwan's right you heard quite Leonard as well do think quite family being there really thirty thousand dollars if they can make robots with your face Jalen rose would you allow them to license your ailing please let me explain the Statue Guy Serious with this so let me let me tell you something that goes under the radar sneaker listings they've made the whole process so easy to use on goat dot com all the time every detail is inspected of each Hawaii Leonard and Doc rivers talked about their debut in the state like I said before if I'm playing a game so I'm thinking about the next play anything that have one at all really would so I can't act like any championship ring will be too big for me for the are you went way too far because you are talking about nine nine percent he stated the raptors it was very much in play for him to stay with the raptors you stay with the raptors stayed in the east had this team had hey all go out there and ball now so I appreciated the thirty four points but I love the eighteen rebounds that's the guy goes great service with Kako you get twenty four seven access to licensed agents creepy girls room find the perfect one hundred percent authentic sneaker at goat dot com slash J. J. that is goat dot com slash. Jj Plus are real do you know that there's more than a coin flips chance that the shoes you're looking at online are fake how can you be sure it's real you can use goat dot com it is the want are gone that is geo at dot com slash J. J. This place look haunted you'll be supporting our show so when you go to go dot com make sure you've got a goat dot com slash. Jj you've got to do it right now before the sneakers the stitching the color the size the weight go certifies that every pair of sneakers that you buy on their site matches exact factory specs Rondo Raptors making it to the NBA finals for the first time and winning the championship with Kawhi Leonard on their roster for way to buy and sell authentic sleek sneakers online they're the largest marketplace in the world for authentic easies Jordan's and over six hundred thousand okay so they can make robots with it for a hundred and thirty thousand dollars shout array Jay who got the life rights I should night that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw indications with over half a million acres in the platform and ten million users you will not mind better prices for verified one hundred percent authentic sneakers anywhere else see I can I'll do it for free at the robot walking around with my face on it I'm totally fine with that is about me one bit and maybe I sent him to work to deal with you we'll stay home three runs on the game and the nats got a Garrett Cole to take a one nothing lead against the Astros Jalen what do you think of the game last night is all of us because we've watched for months guy completely dominate the opposition which is why I wanNA give credit to the Nats Jalen what do you think about coach giving world series and the NBA action and something shocking happened in Houston they got after Garrett Cole especially twenty year old be non wants soda now if using the you know the sneakers Oh don't think about those two creepy girls past truly frightening are very important to both Jalen I in today's marketplace it's difficult to buy sneakers not the same anymore you never know if the sneakers you're looking at online you like to let you respond to that one well a British engineering and manufacturing firm is offering people a hundred and thirty thousand dollars one hundred you know we love power couples on this show and there's a new power couple that we learned about during the world's before the game last night a lot of most is knowing that my family is going to be here tonight and I I'm just back here playing in staples in my hometown just made he was okay springer had a point in the game where he thought he hit a two run homer did his whole Ron Troughton everything okay so instead of getting a triple told you yesterday we're Max Scherzer takes the mile these national seem to be virtually unbeatable yup sure did give up a bunch of base runners in a few runs live is his knee hit I throw them off good point grid analysis from someone who I know from experience hates falling down generally I loss in sixteen starts but how Soto as you mentioned he had three hits any had a stolen base by he was out there balling and like I for the entire time they are on camera. Don't overreact to this men or women that look like a we techs not a metex that builds this thought of invincibility and that it's impossible to beat them in and so when you when it happens it's it is here's last night it is of course Houston Texas Dr J. J. Watt and his now fiance her name is Kailua Ohi and at the game he was on his phone he held on and the nats got the win so after the game. Aj hinch talked about Gary Coleman's performance I think he's been so good for so long Oh got after colle he had not just a double but also this home run that when the W C there he hit brought in clippers bench is so deep and so good and that's led by of course sweet Lou and mantras herald the two I was forgot what it could do oh they were Lamont of this one hundred thirty thousand dollars ain't enough to have my lightness for the rest of my life on a robot not gonNA be able to do it so he knows his strengths and weaknesses just as well as anyone okay you have a bitch a core in particular led by Lou and Harold Credit to the mets hitters. That's exactly what I just did but also on the other side we talked about this with the brays and Ronaldo Kunia junior member date question his hustle doc rivers on the sideline you have tyler now on his staff want to championship coaching the Bron James of all people in Cleveland at Geiko switch today for twenty four seven access to licensed agents Jalen rose I'm sure you like is spent all night switching between now Soto is not the only young female on the national team they also have center fielder Victor Rollerblades who Had some better looking plays in the out Sir in center field well that's going to happen when you hustling the way he does but also the sacrifice your body is always key and what ended up happening on his role in the mantras hair does all of the dirty work in the paint so now when you put Paul George back into the mix this is why a lot of they get a chance to play the same role especially until Paul George comes back so now when you start to gain you can allow Kawai too and his rhythm like he did in the second half but only half the play thirty one minutes that now unlocks the door for your Michael Green excuse me to see it as a student analysis from Jalen rose who just never ever ever cease to amaze me with the things that you know and the things that you cared points which was much more than the Lakers what'd you think about bench production for the clippers so just think about what happened this off season you have head coach D. Advanced had fred kept out he could've run it back with basically the exact same roster was like Nah Nope I'm good thank you for the one year Canada determination of Canada Paul chailly bro what up don't I'm David Jacoby the cool check in uh-huh Jalen talk about the game last night some more between the Lakers and the clippers one of the drastic differences between these two teams was benched production the aw out clearly so she could see you know when somebody doesn't want you to see their full how they can turn their body and ensure that you're not looking at it he there's something that happened during this game is a piece of video that needs to be broken down in extreme detail so you and I need to go to the watches a young town he's got a he's going to have a long career and he can start develop some more but do you think they intentionally put heroin Lou with the second unit so they're playing against second unit can do what they did last night so minutes and make some shots more heartless who they got a Portland to make some plays while Lou Williams and Mantras Herro if particular run they're picking absolutely also here's the thing when you have a great coach your job is to maximize what you're going to get from each player attention somebody maybe look this phone and she looks at his bone the entire time Jalen rose what do you think about her looking at her fiancee's bone over his shoulder people feel the clippers have what it takes to win the championship so I always assumed the Herald would start Zubec- guys assume that that was going to happen because you know I think the it up on second base and coincidentally the next batter hit will would have been a sacrifice fly to score to that to score that run and it was a close game throughout no not going to be able to do it no chance to Japan so you're adequate or New Statue Neil style jalen oh field than this one right here let's take a look a little blooper he's coming in hard and you know he's a guy for this I'm adopted dodge too early it gets hit with the ball Jalen what do you think about this Ashley was letting her look at what he was texting this I'm going to be in a relationship for long twosomes before we had cell phones and I know there's three win but was like this dressed like good friends plan together no hair always look for your friend at a pickup game or something and then we're just working clippers bench put up wait for sixty when Montreal's hail could be starter but sometimes his height could be an issue and you don't want him to get early files based on his aggression and so put up with Lou Williams got dynamic picket role and scored of all Acapella Mona dropped passes and get him some dunks you could put them in against the second unit again necessary sacrifices not some of them and so as you start to realize that your body can't carry a lot of the the game was on the table eating a hot dog and at some point as a player you start to tell yourself I need to make all of the wait based on your knees and this is something as i Williamson is GonNa have to figure out also the first thing you do is you drop weight and that's what he's doing and so you're he's trying to give himself every opportunity physically to be healthy so that's why you don't play basketball during the summer because he get injured you know what it's a really bad look for an NBA player to eat a hot dog getting a massage on a massage table but that sounds owner their projection what he did there was at the nine in front of the twelve months so that now you don't take away the motivation WH- sometimes separated a guy like Greek freak at a really young age other than health from a guy like Joel B you will see footage of him getting happen to them late in the season last year wouldn't you keep clay out even if we have went well even if maybe he could work himself back from the playoffs would you keep him out anyway what a great thing aw athletes and medicine you can't necessarily put a timetable on injuries the way we could pass because we've seen so people come back okay here's a question for you about this it's no secret the words are not one of the five best teams in the Western Conference let's imagine the Klay Thompson is available based on we know you watch and life and you days where you actually like dude he couldn't play basketball all summer because he was rehabbing hundred seventy pounds and look what I heard in that interview with maturity I talked about this earlier in his career that I feel like that's did he say couldn't play basketball summer this is not a great indicator of his health going into the season do you think that will always be dealing with this with Joel embiid the minute I couldn't really play basketball it was more about we are being a making sure my name was far so you got to have your days colleague friend Rachel Nichols and here's what he said about his off season it's about twenty pounds this off season how does that was different because the whole summer on his now time for what's your number Oh good to me after that on there it's a must I know what I'm doing the show today limits and the non skipping back back in the load management is this like a career long thing for him I think so that's a big man seven foot tall jacoby carrying around it through them of not only the teammates that are going to be out there planning to compete in every night hoping that he could join near squat but also for the player who's Diller with the injury if you've got a nine month timetable fourteen fifteen month timetable good point well we're talking about the health of a different player John by the name of Joel Embiid he sat down with her game clothes. It's a really good point well number when Steve Kerr was talking about how Klay Thompson it's unlikely he's going to play this entire season and we kind of reacted like really you want him to feel like there is a chance that he could possibly come back if everything goes well that's a good point and if you feel like there's a chance you come back you might rehab a little harder my yourself a little bit more walked back a little bit let's listen to head coach Steve Kerr my comment was very matter of fact sales generally taking a twelve months takes us right to the NFC so I wasn't announcing anything he's doing very with his Rehab Surge Baca the some of the Congo has a great show where he brings on some of his friends and NBA players and they explore delicacies the latest with Kevin Durant they tried snake let's check it out today the job of exploring some things k. d. and the reason why he made them snake is based on the fact that when he left okay see and when he got an always monitor how much I say a number because you guys are trying to make me eat it you know how much I care about Cook Snake for you a man I can't you know snake oil that's pull the recipes yeah yeah the perfect drug but number two of the most important question what is your number to eat snake I actually watched that interview I thought it I thought he did a really good left the Golden State Warriors that's what the fans and a lot of critics was calling him that's right because on one in a vacuum and so for me touch at Harry's our approach is simple here's our secret we make sharp durable blades and sell them at honest prices for as low as two dollars each we care about quality so much that we com code eight thousand enjoy joining us once again one of our favorites yes joe and a travel cover offered just three bucks plus free shipping just go to Harrys DOT COM and enter eight thousand at checkout that's Harrys dot was but I did start a men's grooming company called Harry's the idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience I had buying razor blades most brands were overpriced over designed an hour the Harry's so thank you if you're one of them and if you're not we hope you give us a try with this special offer get a Harry starter set with a five blade razor waited handle shape do some crazy things like by a world class German blade factory obsessing over every detail means we're confident and offering one hundred percent quality guarantee millions of guys have already made the switch too cooking shopping classes so for this one twenty five hundred really I can't I can't it's still possible place board more than anything Gordon wants to play fast we all understand that circumstances okay so in the past we've been doing this show for years and years and years in the past Jalen always gives us updates on his ten thousand dollar fantasy team it's been a little quiet this year I haven't heard about any game I haven't heard anything about the win loss record I haven't heard a single thing so that was killer against we Kerryon Johnson just got hurt for the lions this past week I can't imagine why Kerryon Johnson Jalen uttered you hey I'm andy if you don't know me it's probably because I'm not ah you're outside with the velvet rope let us in the degenerate corner it is all of yours so Jalen yes I want to start with this Viggo book as good for Vegas Choice you'd be surprised you know by the Snake Anita marks takes degenerate fan corner a needle marks has prepared for these segments more than Jalen rose has prepared for anything Jalen the floor is yours any any update on the Jalen Rose Leadership Academy Jaguars absolutely we're two and four right with three all right now with three take me fifteen hundred dollars this week I'm sorry Seventeen Times fifteen that is ten touchdowns while you had Marvin Jones that's huge yes because because Golladay really has been the go-to once a Barclay got injured yes he did one week I was going against Aaron Jones he had four touchdowns I remember that we had for that that's neat look better than I thought it would could you sauce in buffalo sauce on there I'll get down with that surge my numbers probably like a thousand dollars maybe less maybe five Sha Kerr was arrested in Tennessee last week by making that face I always felt like he was slept on because he wasn't Julio Jones and Law of the whole he just got traded this week am in bodily had Aaron Rogers and another lion says you WanNa get on me about that Marvin Jones both of those gentlemen kvant no no I gotta do math that's about twenty five hundred dollars no to twenty five thousand dollars you guys have a big pool ticket from absolutely talk I'm looking agent just be here so that draft his heart so so let me tell you what happened this past week however great g not panicking at all Jacoby what my squad I'm excited about the rest of the season I almost regret asking for the update fourteen minutes they Jalen I have something I want to discuss with you too okay this is huge news it's being under covered too original which one would you love with three or four right now there are a couple of issues to happen just didn't play out in my favor big dividends not a lot of people have been playing Jones because Golladay has been the guy in the fact that you played in okay that played into your fan had it paid off big touchdown here's another GM move I drafted Muhammed noodle last three years in fantasy I for Matthew Stafford the fact that you had seen with that is Jalen that's your that's your fan hat paying off for you I mean that's just an objective you just looked at best players available and objectively chose the lions running back this You know I led the League in scoring last week aw that's kind of fun nobody puts baby in the corner please put me in in the degenerate corner can I just let me leave me yeah Friday it's a free dry father K. couple of things number one if you feed me snake I need some sauce on their cook the snake to boxer core Yes to occur was arrested in Tennessee last week Anita you're looking at me like I'm crazy is this an elvis google it right now salt was in Tennessee to pock Shaker remember you heard it here hit the broken news button Reggie Refuses Reggie doesn't WanNa play these days. The rain was arrested in Tennessee last week Johnny googling it no I'm gts he was arrested. I think it's aggravated CICI TV the government run Chinese television network did not air the Pelicans against the Raptors so it's a twenty twenty four or five hundred twenty four thousand five hundred Seventeen Times fifteen hundred the recipes we all know and love and Jalen well listen while while we're here in the pod just us right we can talk about things who get traded to oh I have him on my squad as well so biggest another thing too for action to take place that's legitimate and for them to take that stand at the beginning of the season there's a few things here number one was a delight Emma journalist at anything I say was any NASA factually correct no okay this dude is Caucasian I'm sorry right but I'm saying there's twelve people in the league right and it's in it's ten thousand dollar buy in right one hundred one hundred twenty thousand dollar leave on the commissioner that legal tickets Reggie Reggie ready went broke he's like I'm just going to do whatever you say a new Anita has the information now I kind of thought this is going to be behind us I thought it was gonna be bygones be bygones jalen this is a hill Texas things hit the too hot for TV button Red's not Jalen little bit of information okay they're getting all the cliques all the cliques yeah they're putting the headline I assume it's the government system he changed it you know do we do we know who did sends a strong message to the NBA because remember we were over there they took down all of the promotions didn't allow the NBA cares facility the NBA seemingly and that's GonNa be an issue with that relationship well ten cent which is their digital it's GonNa continue throughout the season two story that bubbles up every once in a while I think so this is this is you know it's one thing to discuss this in business with China and also the and also espn they aired the clippers lake so if you wanted to get the Clippers Lakers game you could uh-huh what's his name to Fox occur okay hey yeah not the two dies it's not really that funny but this guy made dying funny okay what they did is before he passed away he prerecorded a message happen and probably because the players were already in town they allowed the game to go on but since we left they're not messing with win the executives are not listening so Jalen and Anita this is something that absolutely love and we couldn't put on the TV show because whenever to be played as his coffin was being lowered into the ground and I've seen this before but usually it's like something funny I mean it's sort of like a addressing the crowd and about someone dying but like this person obviously had a sense of humor so as they're being lowered lowered into the ground in their coughing sound from inside the coffin goes off of the Jones screaming and asking them to stop imagine you're at a funeral and you hear this what do you do die myself we'll make a nice passes and Pascal thirty four points at that would all go away but it has not and we will continue to keep you updated I I was on the same page so I have one word for this act at the funeral selfish leaning over there which isn't necessarily I think it's I don't know how exactly the details of how you know distribution networks working China but I think it's they're like sort of a digital streaming company that is four key passed away and it was only like one or two people knew about it so they're all at this funeral and again it's it's weird talking about it because nothing like that up misspoken good things about you you were a perfect human being shed tears you have Paul bears they're ready to carry your casket and all of a sudden was like sweet and like there's a couple of jokes in there but what he did is he free recorded him screaming from inside the coffin I know yes but this is something that's not a kind of thought it would go away once the sort of the ones we throw up the ball in Toronto we had the first jump start showing highlights of Lonzo Ball But you know he was arrested two bucks was arrested I he is going to be very clear the white guy named to puncture that does not look anything like the two pounds that was selfish selfish I'm going the other way all of these people come here to agree for you and to represent your honor have just got we went to early and you've got kids and the mood is very somber you know what I mean it just a nice little icebreaker let's allies breakers to mix it up nice ice breaker we all do we ought to Mr Suming have you noticed how Mr Jacoby is very matter of fact I'm curious because originally we researched like a pro who broke the news and how many more followers did they get a three hour time period the screen coming out of the casket that selfish okay I'll go to the same exact way everyone's sad they're thinking about how important word how you maybe the executives wouldn't want us to talk about it don't listen to your they don't they they watch the TV show but with the sound off so sometimes we WanNa talk about these things put up the graphic on the bottom that's like better you know what I mean next time here in town indefinite recorded message that you are going to be the only person because you're definitely gonNA outlive me why why do you think he's GonNa Outlive you his his grandmother you were looking for that guy in Tennessee got arrested and he's to puncture government name that's whoever whoever puts a headline or put it's so we celebrate the more intelligent more responsible better smelling generally superior gender of our species the women and we do so by taking only female just complete disregard the sound for coming the concert we have to make sure open the COP and Jalen next time you're in town because at some point I am going to pass away hundreds in one hundred and two hundred and two yeah so you're talking you're not talking like lifestyle you're talking genetic genetics where I wanNA bring in my boss move for soft move leading something good go because of your quote Unquote Pride let me I'm confident and get them going because the game has changed for focusing on who's starting it's about who's finishing and those guys are GonNa be out there when we'll voicemails like this one guy me crystal from Phoenix really going to get to know me out big red's well had been feet I'm a hit you on a cellphone service three Abbey's interest over time you know I asked movers boss move so y'all Oh was quick shoutout to my boy Kevin he's the one that got me on cheers as a show on that note that's I think 'cause y'all be having that quote unquote pride can't let things go so yeah keep giving the people what is that just a soul miss a guy you know I don't think responsible is the right way matter of fact might be Lebron Michael Jordan we can talk about whatever we listened to the podcast alley bigshot the bill wolf the one executive does to the puck back he does always put myself in the shoes of the co-conspirator at some point the focus has to be like no no this is all a joke but like you just because Kerry said it was a joke doesn't mean I'm knocking we're excited I was like then they did this kidding this is definitely a dude but one thing we do every Wednesday I'm glad you here on Wednesday need it is women's Wednesday here simple you guys you guys were at the spoon or something we don't know anything about this guy I honestly don't even know if it's a guy I don't think a female will do that you don't I started gender neutral and can lead into this being a dude I think is very anita can I know if you would we I'm really we're definitely did anyone go like wait I'm sure someone they want setup guys because they're amazing love y'all so she wants she wants us to talk about half the story are there some going on between Crystal Kevin we don't know about that he was like you can call in but you can't give us the details but but really what she wants us to our once you gentlemen to respond to is like the difficulty of leading makes you happy I would say do it if it represents the opposite then don't do it pride is an emotion that she repeated a couple of times I read that there was some sort of disagreement between two people one male one female and the the Nida salt in a sports context is the exact same thing winning teams was somebody makes a mistake it's my mail is too stubborn to just kill keep in the past and he's holding a grudge soccer Jalen rose pry all that can hinder not only your decision making but your happiness in a lot of ways what are your thoughts neither Kevin the whole time hopefully she videotapes in imposed please do the crystal so you guys can play tomorrow but now he just grabbed her phone. I'm deleting this video right now unless in love with that individual if you are more in love with that individual that individual working things out and swallow your pride some assumptions about this situation too because she didn't give us any details I I had thought that someone let her go because of the pride but always comes before the fall oh I like this I think we're going here and if something represents your best interest and what that person you're it's easier to forgive thank you Jalen rose this scene goes controversy will not go life's too short and I've been wrong by like most people in my life so I've just been I'd be alone by myself if I was a grudge holder that's simple pill to swallow but if the person you're love is worth it you'll do it you'll do you'll do it seven days a week and twice on Sunday so I'm a big I'm not a big grudge holder stubborn this person or I'm going to be friends with this person knowing that this is the cachet this is what they come with and either I'm an accept them for their for for for what they bring to the table good bad indifferent or not it's really at the end of the day it's on us being disappointed by people just accept people for who they are I think when you see it when it comes to pride in relationships either one or two things either you you are more prideful and away the latest to discuss that sound bite from Sam Darnold is Adam Gates let's listen to Adam Gates head coach of the jets ad and move onto the next play losing teas were somebody makes a mistake it becomes an argument or disagreement that goes back with with age comes wisdom and one thing I've learned is like people don't change right individual is going to be who they are and it's on you to say okay I'm either going to date Monday night football but there's an NFL rep who listens to all the audio and gives espn the ability to broadcast or not now I sent out a few text messages this morning to what you were saying about if you really love someone that can be family friend relationship or whatever there aren't any perfect people in in in making it work with that individual was more important to you than your pride I just I think it comes down to one of the other is more important or the individual using goblins warlocks humans that he didn't tell us anything we didn't know I understand the jets being upset but at the end of the day Adam Gates has the NFL who's cool with having every sidelined combo broadcast to millions there's a reason we've never heard other QB's frustrated on the sideline like that before that's crazy at NFL did the shelves on twitter to the point he said quote the NFL screwed Sammy over there's not one player his team and all in their offense winning some football games and not sure if everybody out there understands the process here yes it's aired on ABC SLASH ESPN spend time around somebody log enough they're going to do these upset you they're gonNa do to disappoint you but if you have a healthy respect and or he's had a lot more success in the NFL some some people feel the best quarterback in the NFL but I you know listen we all watched that game yes we know Sam Darnold was seen goes and I don't want to do the same thing talking to one another so four Sam darnold and other NFL players that may be something they wanted to consider adopting will Mike Leach tried to received person is still employed I did not hear back I do know that there's one quarterback in the NFL refuses to be Miami and that is Aaron Rodgers by the way which I listen he's got more cloud Zain like I'll apologize and I don't need it I'll forget things that you did very quickly like I'm just not that I'm just not that for grudge holder know life's too short I'm not a graduate in love with more important and that's how it plays out well because a lot of times you're swallowing you you might not you might not totally agree with it it might be a hard knows how long that'll be we know Tom Brady said that he can play for another five years and Tennessee Solid Defense Derrick Henry they're they're they're running back solid rushing game wide receivers the decision whether or not you want them in your life or not how did we get like what do I know how are we supposed to talk football related guarantee I guarantee crystal is going to get is that they're not really being utilized because they don't have a great quarterback Corey Davis They drafted Brown they bring in humphries who I loved in Tampa Nick situation that I've been in because I think when you commit to a team for a certain
[Unedited] Sylvia Boorstein and Krista Tippett
"Support for on being with Krista. Tippett comes from the fetzer institute, helping build the spiritual foundation for a loving world. Fetzer envisions a world that embraces love as a guiding principle and animating force for our lives a powerful love that helps us live in sacred relationship with ourselves others and the natural world. Learn more by visiting fetzer dot org. I'm Krista Tippett, and this is on beings. Unheard cuts up next. My unedited conversation with Jewish Bhuddist teacher and psychotherapist mother and grandmother, Sylvia Burstein. There's a shorter produced version of this wherever you found this podcast. Good. Good evening. I want to welcome you to a very special experience metro, parent magazine, and WD tease, spirituality and parenting. My name is Alissa Martina, and I'm the publisher of metro parent magazine. And we're thrilled absolutely thrilled to have Krista Tippett tear tonight as our keynote speaker. And we're so glad that all of you could join us. Thank you. So very much for being an attendance. Now, we call tonight's evening. A conversation on wisdom and learning in the modern family, and for those of you more parents as I am, you know, that being a parent is one of the most challenging spiritual journeys, you can take. As specially today the faith landscape in America has changed profoundly over the years. Maybe some of you have left your childhood religion for something different. As is. Now the case for twenty eight percent of adults in this country. Or maybe you're in a blended faith family. Or perhaps you still attend the same church synagogue or mosque as you did as a kid, regardless. Once you have kids, they have plenty of questions, and you all know that and finding those answers is no small task. And so tonight, we hope that we'll be able to find some of those answers and help arouse some of our exploration self discovery. But before we begin I want to give a huge. Thank you to our sponsors. They are Christ Church Birmingham, Madonna university in Livonia, the college for creative studies in Detroit and the American Red Cross it's because of them that tonight is possible. Would you please? Thank them. Now. When you walked hopefully, you probably noticed cards on your chairs, and we want you to join the conversation tonight by writing down any questions that you may have our speakers during the towards the end of the presentation and shortly before the QNA are ushers will come and collect them. So that we can present them to Krista. Also, just a quick reminder. And this has happened to me before. So speaking as part of the choir, please, remember to turn off your cellphones. Everyone put them on vibrate. And please note that no flash photography is allowed to tonight's event. Now, it's my pleasure to introduce to you, my partner in crime, Michael assessor. He's the general manager of tonight's partner. WD T one on one point nine FM. I'm sure all of you. Listen, how many of you listened to one point nine? All right. It's Detroit's public radio station, and we're proud to be their partner. So I'm invite interesting Michael to bring to come on up and tell us more about Krista Tippett, Michael also. It's just such a great pleasure to have you here tonight. Several years ago when I was not here in Detroit another radio station. I got a call from guy with the disc as you usually do when somebody's pitching you with a new show. It's, you know, the new thing the best thing the thing you want to check out, and if you're gonna magin being in a large city newsroom and getting pitched on his show about religion. You know, all of the usual stuff comes right to the surface. But what was immediately. There was voice in point of view, and empathy and an interest in the world that went soul much beyond. What was sort of the headline of whatever the program might have been and what I think all of us are looking for more than anything else. These days is something to connect to person's gonna guide us into a new space somebody that we can trust someone that we feel sort of shares are concerns in our instruments world and wants to challenge us to go to someplace new. So that's all of what I was hearing. When we got those very first shows that Krista put together and now she's put together. This extraordinary team. They've gone out and done things that you would never expect Amir radio show to do and gathered people together from all different parts of the world. Not just something as obvious as people from different faiths, but people from different everything, then that's we've really been so pleased and proud to have you come together and enjoy this. Tonight, you're going to be part of a radio show. So remember that smile appropriately laugh when you need to and ask great questions that's all going to be happening and make sure that you check out on being every week on WD and check out their extraordinary award winning online community at some someplace you're gonna want to spend a lot of time so pleases a first time here in Detroit. So I know you're gonna do a great job making a welcome. Please Krista Tippett. Detroit. I would think Lisa Martina Detroit meant to apparent in all the sponsors. I loved hearing that list read, and Michael L says, of course, who actually was one of the first people in the entire public radio system who believed that this show should be on public radio and could be on public radio. And I have I am incredibly grateful to him. And as those of you who know him, they know he is one of the great thinkers and leaders and actually just all around great human beings in public radio or anywhere. So we so VIN looking forward to coming to Detroit. Also, I to say Michael is here tonight. I think as passionate father and a full disclosure, I Emma journalist, but I'm I'm also not neutral on the subject of parenting. I actually have two teenagers. And I also brought with me the end of cold, which I will wear as a badge of honor in this context because I got it from my children, you know, this is. Just one of these things that you don't expect about parenting all the things they will give you all the viruses. You never knew out there. And you know, when my God, I I started talking about this. And we knew that Detroit metro parent was involved. We were interested in this theme of raising children, which of course, just means raising human beings in a world that I think feels I suppose the world always feels complicated in any age. But I think there's a there's a pace of change and uncertainty right now, it is unsettling, and it's unsettling to be a, parent or grandparent at the best of times. So we started thinking about who I might want to have with who I might want to speak with. And in the beginning. We were thinking about experts on parenting, or grandparent, and then what I realize is really just wanted somebody who is wise, and who also had lived this experience of raising children and eventually I slept on this. And my mind eventually came back around to Sylvia Burston who I'd read years ago. I did. And tell you this I in the Saint Paul public, libraries I stumbled across your book about ten years ago. I think when I was first having the idea for this show her book, that's funny. You don't look Buddhist. Because Sylvia is one of the people who literally brought Buddhism to the west to the United States in the nineteen seventies. And was Jewish like a lot of the people who brought Buddhism to the west in the nineteen seventies. A lot of people who we still are. So our household names with Buddhism in the United States. But she's also written over the years about how she has come back to really richly integrate that with her Jewish identity, which was there before she was a Buddhist and to talk about finding again in two days of the imagery and poetry and ancestry and continuity that nourish her and that she's also passed onto her children. So when I thought of Sylvia's, this wise person, I started googling to see if you ever wrote about children and parenting and grand parenting. What I found is that in her bio description everywhere, I could find it. She lists herself this way, she has lots of credentials. But it started out Sylvia Burstein is a wife mother grandmother, author teachers like therapist, and I thought that's it. This is our person. Actually, I'm happy. I'm happy that you discovered that. I. I think it's true. I'd normally described myself that way, and I find that when people say, what are you proudest of in your whole life? The it's clear to me that I am most proud of the fact that my my children now really adults all of them now three of the four of the Marin the fifties. So that's really a substantial credential, and they're all very very nice people. And that is my best. That's what I'm proudest, and my grandchildren are coming along. And they have very good people. And I'm so proud of that this best. I don't think I've done. I have certainly haven't done it alone. I've done it with their father, and I've done it with their teachers with our community. But they are I think my most important my most important work in my life. How many grandchildren do you have? I have seven. So you know, one thing that I enjoyed reading in think it was in your book. That's funny. You don't look good is that he wrote that your father's mother that would have been your Jewish grandmother was your first Buddhist teacher that she used to tell you where is it written? You're supposed to be happy all the time. You have to know that. My I grew up in a post depression household, both my parents had jobs, and so we lived I lived with my I'm an only child I lived with my parents, and my grandmother who was widowed. My father's mother. And my parents went off to work. So my grandmother did a great deal of the mothering of and she was very very solicitous. So that I remember her as bathing and washing and dressing me and making braids and preparing the kinds of foods that I like, and she was very solicitous. The only thing that she was pretty not moved to respond to was the coming and going of childhood bouts of a not happy. I'd say, but I'm not be and she'd say in that, my grandmother is now learned woman in that sense. But it's a it's an ethnic thing to use that Tom you to turn a phrase, and she'd say, where's it written that you're supposed to be happy all the time? And I actually think it was the beginning of my my virtual practice that life is difficult. And then forty years later, I learned that the Buddhist said the same thing in life is inevitably challenging and how we going to do it in a way, that's wise and doesn't complicate it more than it is just by itself. So I wanna talk tonight about about that wisdom that you've learned and how it might apply to our lives as parents, not just the spiritual eyes if our children, but are how we nourish ourselves right as we are present to them. And as we part what we want to impart to them. I I have to say Sylvia that, you know, you're sitting here, and you are so so calm, and and you you radiate, wisdom and your books radiate wisdom, but so it was somewhat comforting for me for you to also describe yourself as a lifelong warrior just talk about how how fretful comes naturally, and I guess you talked about that from your own childhood that your mother was ill. And so that you learn to always in that you had reasons to be scared. Well, I had reasons to be. I read to be anxious as a child my mother did have a book called in those days a week heart. She'd had rheumatic card she'd had rheumatic fever as a child and she had is the consequence. She lived with a chronic currently insufficiency, and I worried about that. And she actually died when I was in my early twenties. So I've passed more than fifty years now without a mother, and I I wish I'd had one longer. But when I was a child I worried about it a lot. But you know, what I've found Krista that there are people who are given to fretting without a fretful environment. I think it's actually it's a it's a genetic glitch of neurology. And that it happens to some people and not for other people actually the Buddha said we have one of five genetic. Fallback glitches when which he said, some people Fred some people get angry, some people lose heart, and all they read energy goes. And they don't want the do themselves. Some people think oh, it's me. I didn't do things. Right. It's always my fault. I mess things up. And some people need to be sensually sued. They think where's the Donut. Shop whereas a pizza. People had different different tendencies. It was very very helpful for me as an adult to learn that because it's completely comes without a judgment. I don't have to say, I am a chronic fritter. I could say, you know, what I'm challenged fretting arises in my mind. It's just it's it's like, the weather got cloudy or Zaydan something happened. I didn't personally do it. And it's not a moral flaw, and it's very good for people who have a short fuse to be able to think, you know, I have this unusual that naturally arose logic lives. This is what happens when I'm challenged. But to take it as I tell it to people that this is Mike Lynch is I I when in doubt worry. I said it came it came with the moment. I'm also sure that I have Brown eyes. And the if I could see that in the same neutral, it just came with the equipment, then I don't have to feel bad about it. But I can work with it wisely. It's that's really the important part. When we see as adults what it is at our fallback glitch is can say, oh, I think in a certain way that's a sign of wisdom when you begin when a person begins to be able to delineate. This is what happens to me end. Attention piece of self knowledge is a piece of self knowledge that that makes a break in between a certain next step. And that next step is at all. So what I'm going to an airport, for instance. And they say. Attention, ladies and gentlemen in the next half a second. My mind will always think somebody crashed. That's is that what I not everybody thinks that. But people do as I ask people, but. In that in that many say engine, ladies and gentlemen, and then I think oh, and then they say, please, stay close to your luggage, always say the same thing too. So it's not like I. But in so I actually I don't get too startled. When I have that thought it's just the thought or if I come to a place where I've I've agreed to meet my husband on the corner of a certain street, meet you at fourth and be street at five o'clock, and I come there at five, and he's not there, and it's five five, and is there I could start to think maybe this. Maybe that maybe this maybe, but I think to myself, wait a minute. That is just my peculiar neurological glitch kicking in probably not, you know, I could just wait here quietly. I can look at the windows. I could look at the people I could say relaxing, phrases to my own mind. I could wish well to the passes by they're just lots of other things I can do rather than become all that. You know? I think that. Becoming a parent actually heightened all of those possibilities for I think. So so I happened to have the experience of having my I told my daughter while I was at seminary while studying theology, which was a really interesting thing to do to be reflecting the logical and then going through this experience of bringing life into the world. And one of the one of the really strong reactions. I had after she was born was realizing that I'd grown up using this language of goddess father. And that is very don't reflect on what we mean. Because this father God who I always thought it was so sovereign so powerful, right. And the experience of becoming a parent is is one of excruciating vulnerability and loss of control. And to be able to know this whole thing of worrying and catastrophes being fearful gives you all kinds of rich new reasons. Actually, no is it's really affect one of the people who. A woman who was a came regularly. I teach I teach his rock meditation center out in California, and the classes kind of a regular Roop of people that comes every Wednesday and of women came who was a pregnant with first child and the whole group was looking forward to her having her baby. And she took some time off after the baby's born. And then she came back. Brought the baby there, and she talked about she said, you know, when I became pregnant everybody said, congratulations great-great-great fake day and the one I had the baby of congratulations. Great. Great. Great. Great great. Nobody tells me that I had at that point mortgaged, my heart for the entire rest of my life because my happiness now depends on this baby being well and healthy and nothing bad happening to it. Nobody tells you that they don't say when they say, oh we brace yourself. They say, congratulations because you know, percents bows this, congratulations. It's the most amazing thing we can do as you said feel speedy. Speak to create a new life that comes out with fingernails lashes, all all its fingers and toes. It's an amazing thing. And it's extremely. Awakening in the sense of knowing how vulnerable we are. You know, sometimes when you say goodbye to somebody sales. He's soon, and you actually never know. And it would be grim to think about that. All the time. But if I think about that enough time, I think I I think the the result of my thinking about that a lot is that I try very hard not to harbor any grudges and not to leave anybody in the not good way. And to say, I love you as much as I can when I leave people, and when I talked to my children, or my grandchildren. I think that's actually the qualley thing about the the effect of being aware of how fragile in instead, how fragile and strange unpredictable life. In fact, in fact, that that the crux of what the Buddha Todd is really is realizing that everything passes including these lives, and it's it's not it's not a gloomy Macab kind of philosophy. It's really an understanding about this. What's true, and knowing that's true? I think we're mandated not to waste any time with emnity or negatively or grudges at some easy to make a grudge list and the nurtured. So it a one way I think about one of the things I to say about you, you've taught would as you've taught mindfulness meditation to rabbis and I. I remember being at Bari Massachusetts at the insight meditation society were they they also have met mindfulness meditation for priests and nuns in Christian clergy. I think of a lot of this wisdom. Of Buddhism is especially mindfulness this idea of being awake and aware. It's really spiritual technologists that Buddhism has cultivated for thousands of years and. Kind of offering itself up to the twenty first century with with a new relevance. Yes. I want to ask you again in this context of raising children. Let's talk about this core insight that suffering and again with where where we're knowledge that parenting is is the greatest loss of control we ever suffer her that suffering results from struggling with what is beyond my control that idea of the that our minds getting conflict with our experience. And that that's where suffering comes from not not so much from the realities themselves, but how we struggle with them. How do you think that applies to the I just was remembered? Actually, just before he came out of this evening sitting backstage. I remembered on a flight last Friday, and there were there was a family of five traveling with me about behind me was father and one child and in these three seats alongside of me was the mother and two children. And my estimate of those Tilden's ages were seven and five and probably two and a half more than two, but maybe not quite three and everything is progressing. Well, it wasn't a terribly long fight. Near the end of the flight practically as we've beginning to send the two or three year old small girl. Alongside her mother and next to her brother fell asleep. So here she is all slumped over, and then we'll landing and then as we come down to land, she wakes up with that bump, and she's disconcerted and I figured probably her ears hurt. She just fell asleep and now she's awake. And and it's late in the afternoon of probably her naptime is way off and she not only woke up, but she woke up, and she's beside herself and crying and flailing in the way of three year olds. And I've watched these two parents, and they were fabulous. I the mothers picks up and holds her talks to her quietly. But nevertheless, the child was beside herself in not just with all these efforts. She was clearly disconcerted if I woke up, and I was an avid, you know, there's a rumbling plane and his rumbling along the runway and old people standing up and. It's an overwhelming kind of thing. So she's just beside herself. And her mother was completely just consoling quietly talking to her not losing her epidemic at all. And I was marveling it. I thought it was wonderful. I, you know, sometimes you see much more upset parents. Was this parent was not upset and then by by after a little while adad over here said passer to me, so they changed children. She passed this back to him. And then he behind me voter and such a kindly way and slowly slowly she pulled us together. And I two so admired their parenting skill admired it because first of all the child condo self down. They didn't with themselves up and create more suffering for themselves. They also didn't create more suffering for the whole plane because he in the Senate has what a child is getting upset and the parent becomes all upset. Right. Then feel pulled into it. Right. But some of these parents. Equity was like a calming effect around the whole planet. I was thinking that I was just thinking about it that came into my mind just before we came in. And I thought well really the time. I thought was really good parents. But I thought the element of their goodness was that they're acting very wise and that the wisdom involved is this child is two and a half. And that's for two and a half year olds do when they're awake in from a nap in the middle of allowed and rumbling. That's also an illustration of a distinction you made when you talk about something about Why's effort. I found this really helpful on it. I feel like that's that's a story about it. You said in terms of our reactions the difference that there's a big difference in any moment between asking am I pleased, which of course on an airplane in Yuba screaming child. You're you're not. Don't you think you will be less disruptive? If you can make them white as but the difference. We'd asking him I please. Or in this moment, am I able to care? For the child and for myself in a kindly way, they really devoted themselves to the child. But also they kept themselves. Well by not becoming destroyed. They kept the whole back of the plane. Well, I think by not becoming distraught. Because I think that those kinds of feelings radiate out these are really good parents. They just. They took care of what they they did what they could as long as they needed to and it worked, but they didn't push it any faster than they needed to. I thought to myself. I wonder what it would be. It's a very I was I thought I wonder if they their followers of any particular religious tradition. I thought to myself, you know. Could be any tradition because everybody's religion is about kindness and goodness. And taking care of what needs to be taken care of and recognizing what you can't do anything about. And. Which is hard in. But you can't do anything about it two and half year old who's lost the no except wait for them to put together. You know here. Here's something else. You've said that. That's provocative and just so true. It's not fair. The three words it's not fair have caused more trouble than any words throughout history. But you know, what's interesting about that is it's not fair is also the beginning of our children's ethical instinct, in fact. But then to vary. Interfering degrees, we live with that instinct throughout our lives. That's a really important point Krista that. I think probably people will be able to relate to that. You know, when you grow up in a family and. In the normal course of parenting, even before the child ventures out in the world and goes to school. There are incidents where they they need to share with someone or they're whatever it is. They have to wait in line. And we say we do this because it's fair. And if you do this because it's fair, and we carry on about it's fair because it's fair, and then they go to school, and they come home, and they say the teacher has favorites favor. So and so and so and so over me, I'm terribly sorry. It can't do anything about that. And they say put it's not fair. And here, you are the people who have said, it's about fairness sometimes you have to say it's not fair, and we can't do anything about it. But in the largest sense when we as a doubts occupy themselves with what's not fair in the world. And we take our children with us and they hear and see and and take part in the expressions of our own generosity. Our own kindness around social activism. When I think about parenting, I think you said it before about parenting as ritual practice, I think as social activism as a spiritual practice. I think voting is a spiritual practice. So how do we help them walk that line between, you know? I remember sister held in praise on who is a great opponent of the death penalty who said anger is a moral response. But then you it's what you do with it anger. This what you're saying? Also that it's not fair is is fundament of morality and innovative activism. So how do we walk that line between demonstrating that? And also helping ourselves and our children live wisely with those feelings and those observations of lies unfairness, you know. I think a lot about that. I remember I remember my father is now long gone hearing me teach about transforming anger into into work in the world doing something. And he'd say I need my anger Soviet motivates me to do all the activism that I do as well. You do need it dad, you need it just to let you to alert into what needs a tension. But you don't need it don't need to carry it along with you to keep refueling. And as a matter of fact, if it ref- if you keep nurturing the flame of anger, it confuses the mind, and maybe we don't respond as wisely as we ought to bet, I need the anger as if I had one hundred and four fever. It would be a sign. That I need to do something about it. And then you let the anger then you let it. Well. I hope that what I do is. I recognize the anger as a response actually on. It's a response. I think to what I feel underneath it, which is a fear things really aren't fair. This is not right that this this is happening in the world. And I think it response to that fear, which is basic the the the human response is to lash out when something frightened. You know, let's easiest example of that. If you come bye door and as a joke someone's hiding behind the door, and they they leave out in these blue and get mad at them. Well, you see sometimes it's a terrible thing to see is he sometimes a child Russia's out into traffic an apparent runs out and grabs it, and then it's it it for. But either what they've done is they've gotten frightened. Yeah. And then they get angry. So I think that the anger is on top of the fear and to be able to say I am frightened because in the world these unjust things are happening. What can I do? And how can I have a mind that's energized to do something about it? But not not not reacting in anger, but responding in firm kindness, but things need to be different things need to be different. You've said something like. That you're measuring stick for. How clearly you're thinking is how if you're able to be kind. I think that you know, I I have been talking a lot about kindness in the last few years. It's such a in a sense a humble word when we think about. Spiritual practices, or if I think about thirty more years ago when I began to be interested in a meditative path. We talked about things like enlightenment and revelation and kindness is much more humble. But I actually think kind of what I really like to establish myself the Di Lama when people ask him. What's your religion, says, my religion is kindness? And I think it's a word that subsumes tolerance and forgiveness and graciousness and. Patience all of the things that kind those folks on the plane were being kind to the child kind to each other kinds of all plane by their ability to keep it together. What I like about kindness. It's doable. And unlike those virtues like compassion. Or even tolerance that you have to cultivate. I mean, you have to be a lifetime cultivating, those things you can actually be kind to someone even if you don't feel especially compassionate, or it can be an act it's an act, and I think it's on the way to actually genuinely being compassion the way the way I keep thinking about it Krista is when I'm kind. In any circumstance, whatever someone cuts in front of me. Going with the basket in the supermarket and someone zips it right in front of me. And you only have two items in your basket anyway. So could have not. So you mind thinks thought, and, but when my mind thinks thought like that or they shouldn't have done that in that moment. I'm complicating my own mind my own negativity, which I'd rather not do. But if they could catch myself to that. And instead think to myself who knows maybe he's laid for someplace maybe really needs to be maybe this is urgent may he be well, he get there in good shape. May may he live happily then I don't really mess up my own mind, and I don't I arrived. So I'm two minutes later in the supermarket checkout. So I've done myself, a kindness, and the the wisdom, I think they'd come from not upsetting the mind is you never know. I really don't know where that person's going. And you'd never know whether it's good to go out now or two minutes later. Maybe who knows what traffic he'll get into. Or? I just did not fight with the moment there. They are. Why complicated? I think we're in the habit of doing that a lot. And I suppose we modeled that for children then it may become like that to do. You have thoughts about passing this kind of. This kind of idea this kind of teaching onto children, even as I say that I realized that probably the best way is to be like that. I remember my daughter who's seventeen. Now, she she said to me the other day. So is this one of those do what I say not what I do things. Right. You. So I I assume you model this, but do you talk to your children and your grandchildren about kindness about this kind of? I think you'd probably comes up in the in the conversation from time to time. I don't bring it up as a as a sermon, but it posted. Pose it comes up in the talking. My my grandchildren might be talking about something that's going on in school. And I think by what we respond to and what we nurture. That's really what what what grows in our in our children. One of my friends. One of my friends has a story that he likes to tell which I've heard now as a native American story, I've heard it it is every kind of a story. But as a wise grandfather saying to his grandson, or it could be a wise grandmother saying to her granddaughter, I have to wolves in my heart. One is loving and one is a vicious and they're at war with each other and the grandchild saying which is going to win and the grandparents saying the one I feed so. So I think that you know, it it works in any kind of. I think that we are always. I think I told them learn to speak in a tone that we speak in to hold people kindly if we do. I want to let you know that if you have questions you'd like to write down finish those up and somebody will be walking through it. A few minutes to collect the cards where else are going to have a radio moment here in a moment. Because I'm gonna tell you one thing I had it my mouth, I had in my mind. I wanted to tell us I've never said it in public audience. But I just thought about it recently. I decided that. How find out soon if this is a good analogy? But I was thinking about the GPS in my car. It never gets annoyed at me. If I make a mistake. It says recalculating. And then tells me make the make as soon as left turn and go if I if I I thought to myself, you know, I I should write a book in call it recalculate because I think that that's what we're doing all the time that something happens it challenges us and the challenges. Okay. So we want to get mad now you could get mad. He could go home. You could make some phone calls. You could tell if you people you can't believe what this person said that prisoner. You could go indignation is tremendously seductive and to share, you know, with other people on the telephone women all that. So to not do it and to say, wait a minute apropos of you said before wise effort to say to yourself, wait a minute. This is not the right road. Literally. This is not the right road a fork in the road here. I could become indignant. I could flame up this flame of negativity or I could say recalculating, I'll just go back to you on the technology instilling. Spiritual. Oh, I think we find so much. And no matter how many times I don't make that turn. It will continue to say recalculating, the tone of voice. We're staying the say. Good good analogy. Well, you know about the technology a lot of people. I've said as you said we began we life is so much different now and so much speeded up. And I noticed that. People. I was watching the news in the airport and not only did we I was watching the news of the the demonstration in in Cairo. And. But on the which was several exciting. But underneath that in the rolling tape. That's underneath it was every fifteen seconds. And other piece of information on top of all his information as so much stuff to process, and it's so stimulating. And it's very seductive to say in a life has become so wisdom, and so busy, you know, how can people possibly pay attention long enough to fix the world which really needs on many levels to get fixed, and I've been saying for longtime, and I think that because of this technology because I remember a journalists saying that the reason the Berlin Wall came down the proximal causes a fall of the wall was the fax machine. I read that recently. And I I've been thinking since then that the proximal cause of the world stopping and saying, you know, we have to do things a different way is going to be people all over the world saying just a second. We're destroying the biosphere and everything else will stop and look and see everybody. I usually carry a poem by public Arruda. I'm gonna have you read that and you got it. I brought it brought it back. I put it to Detroit. But it's my. I carry it. With me. Always I we're gonna read that we're going to give it as a gift to everyone because you gave it as a gift to me. I here's our radio moment. I'm Krista Tippett on being conversation about meaning religion ethics and ideas today in a public conversation on raising children in complex times. I'm with Buddhist teacher and psychotherapist mother and grandmother, Sylvia. Boersting? Her books include happiness is an inside job practising for joyful life. Sylvia. I want to ask you to this question of. Raising children human beings who are kind who have a heart for the world. In a world that's troubled when you and I met on a panel in southern California two years ago. You told a story about. Leading mindfulness teaching sessions, and you told a story about I think it was a man who at the end of it said I'm frightened to go back out into the world. I feel so vulnerable and in here, I'm safe, but I don't know how I can be out in the world and be vulnerable. And that story came back to me as I was thinking about interviewing you on this subject because I as a parent there's a version of that that goes through my mind how much to expose my children to. How do I teach them to be kind and open to the world's pain and vulnerable? And yet I want them to be safe. And I I actually want them to be tough out in that scary world at the same time talk to me about that. I remember MRs it's a two part answer. I remember that. I don't remember exactly that moment. But I'm sure it happened because it comes up often and people will come and spend a week at a retreat center or weekend or have many days. And then they do say here, everyone is safe. And it's quiet and to go out I feel too vulnerable. And it gives me a chance to say. Really, I I don't think we can become too vulnerable. I'm waiting for the time that the whole world is suddenly to vulnerable and looks around and says, wait a minute. We're making very big mistake. We all have to stop. They have to share. We have to make sure there's enough to eat all over the world. We have to stop. We can teach each other are ways and tell each other our hopes and dreams, but we can't kill each other that doesn't work and we can't kill the earth. And we can't despoil it as we're doing. So in a sense as a half of an answer Krista because that's what I'd say to an adult is leaving a retreat right to a parent. I say, you know, as a child is growing up inevitably they live in the world. And they'll hear about things if they live in a house, that's a relatively peaceful, and we have a certain amount of control is parents about how much the TV is on. And what's on TV and how much how much? They are confronted by the pain of the world. And you know, what I think since full myself really, I can't sometimes with the pain of the world seems incomprehensible and unbearable to make. But I think if there's anything that balances it, it's. The wonder at the world the amazingness of people how kind they are how resilient they are. How people will take care of people that they don't know. Visit somebody falls someone's in trouble in a public place. People take care of them people take care of people that they don't know that human beings have that ability. I don't think they have to learn enough to have lessons in too. I think we're companionable speechis and for the most part every once in a while, we meet armored type people, but for the most part with companionable and congenial, and we care about other people, and we take care of them. So to be able to look at human beings and say give given beings are amazing life is amazing. The sun came up in the exact right place this morning and celebrate seasons. I think that's a wonderful part of being part of a of a group of people who celebrate seasons and birthdays and holy days. So that here we are again at another time in another season and said, great cosmos to look at and imagine people going up into space and looking at the stars our ancestors looked at the same stars. I think that there's a way of if I if I keep myself a sense of amazement, I tell my grandchildren look at this moon. It's a three day moon. It's the best moon. It's better than today. Moon today day moon is kind of skimpy really can't see it and afford they moon. It's already like on its way to what moon, but a three day move is just beautiful. It's my favorite moon. And if I show that to them, then they'd be into think, oh, it's. Favorite moon three? But that just happens to be me. I like moons everybody will do in their own way. But I think that always balances it when when the Bitta Todd about needing to see the suffering in the world, so that we could respond with compassion. He also talked about the preciousness of life and the need to take care of it. And I think those two at the same time. I mean, that's also something I think our children give us new is, especially when they're very little see the world, actually, Trent my colleague was talking about taking a walk with his son energy. I remember those moments when you're a little, and it's like everything has been invented for them. And they name it and everything is fascinating. Right. Can look at one flower for a long time. It's amazing. He started to do that. I have a friend who at who ends all of her emails. You know, we have an automatic signature in you, push your marriage signature hierarchy Matic signatures, says stay amazed. And I love that. I was. This is also making me think about how we we need to be attentive to what our children can teach us as well as what we want to impart to them because some of this they know, and they actually know immediately than we do because we lose it. Remember watching something terrible in the news the other day, and my daughter said. So many beautiful lives in the world. And this is what they focus on. She's so right. But she knows that. And I've kind of lost it. In. I think the beautiful and wonderful lives in world. I certainly I'm not a sociologist of journalism aren't as compelling images. Right. As the headline. They don't make good headlands in a wonderful. I don't know if it would be commercially viable, if they were channel that had all of wonderful things. Go news. I it's hard to make. The sexy. Think about this on that could do that. Some entrepreneurs could figure it out, maybe, but you know. I think it's like kindness it it's the stuff of moments. But it's it can be absolutely transformative in moments and these beautiful lives are transformative and moments and. Maybe they don't lend themselves, and that's just fine. But we have to we have to turn it ourselves to look for them. Right. That what mindfulness is about in part. You know? You know? In both the two things that you just said one of them is that when we really paying attention, which is what mindfulness is really really connect with other people. Now, let's let's let's times I think for reasons of Russia what every room children when not completely. When I completely there. I have a friend who's a grandchild said to him. Grandchild with whom he spends a lot of time said to him he was visiting and staying at the house and doing whatever it is. Do you love me? Said I of course, we love you. Don't you? You do know that don't you? You said, yes, you know. But I don't feel it when you aren't paying attention to me. So there is something about nearly paying attention. You know, Soviet? We're going to go to questions in a minute. But. I wondered if you just do it quick and dirty loving kindness. Take us through just the idea of the meta practice if a loving kindness meditation give everybody just a taste. Oh, we'll do. It of what happens to it. Because this is something that's really central to you and your teaching and get central to what we're talking about cultivating ourselves in thrill that I get to tell everybody. So we have to give you a one minute explanation of this is. The Buddha taught mindfulness meditation, which is the practice of paying attention moment to moment in a balanced way. He also gave instructions to at all times, cultivate, a loving heart. There's a particular sermon called the sermon on impartial love. Sometimes it's called the sermon. The Buddhist teaching unkindness, and it says that towards everyone we should wish. Mayo beings be at ease in some kind of nations. It says may mayo beings. Be happy mayo being speed ease. Whatever living beings there may be. And then it goes through all the categories of living beings far near in those, you know, and those who don't know. And I've done it as a practice now for twenty five years, and I teach it mostly because I like it very much and over the years, I've come to appreciate that. It sounds like very much like a prayer for the people made these people be well in these in these in these and it is indeed. But I actually think it's most crucially a prayer for my own wellbeing because. There is no there's no time that I feel safer or happier than them when I'm in touch with my own kindness benevolence, and it's a blessing practice essentially and in the in the mode of blessing. They can't be any negativity. Negativity cannot exist in a blessing mind, it would be like driving your car and Ford and reverse at the same time. It can't happen. So it's actually the the antidote to any negativity. And so we could do a very short. A Reader's Digest version of of of a meta practice, but it'll be fine. It will work anyway. And. If you'd like you could close your eyes perfectly all right to have your eyes open if you'd rather not. But since I'm gonna ask you to imagine somebody who might not be here. You might have easy a time imagining with your eyes closed, so you don't have to sit in a special way. But if you want to close your eyes, and we'll just take a to deep breaths in and out in and out in and out it long breath in. And out. In again. And. Fill yourself sitting here. Fizz of sitting here. Fees of surrounded by all these people. Yourself. I hope happy and content. And say thinking your mind. Ah blessing flee self the meta practice loving kindness. Practice always begins with a blessing for yourself. So think for yourself. May I feel safe? In physical words in your mind. May I feel content? May I feel strong? May I live with ease. Bringing to your mind, someone that you love tremendously. Apparent partner child sibling, someone you love enormously that thinking of them brings delight into your mind, you probably have more than one pick one just for this moment. Imagine them right in front of you. Imagine that they can feel you wishing for them. So you make this wish in your mind for your person. May you feel safe? May feel content. May feel strong. May live with ease. Think about another person. That you love a lot. Imagine them. And wish for them. May you feel safe? You feel content. You feel strong. May you live with ease? Ju body. Stay relaxed in easy. I often tell people to smile when they're blessing makes the whole body more relaxed think of someone that you wehrley think about but that you'd recognize if you met I always think about them hollow who's been cutting my hair for ten years. I like very much, but I normally don't think about her in between. Silence to think about sometimes in the middle of blessing because my relationship with her becomes a little dearer. Think of a person. That's a familiar stranger. And wish for them. Do you feel safe? May feel content. May feel strong. Bay live with ease. Think about past the people that you recognize in the world familiar strangers. All the unfamiliar strangers. Near and far. All around us here and stretching out all around the whole world. All around this whole globe. Up people just like us. The lives the want that just as we do. To live in safety and contentment vehicle to feel strong have lives of ease. Share with us the same wishes in hopes and dreams that we have as human beings. Come home to their family to be able to take care of their family. Celebrate another birthday. Wish for all those people of beings near and far. May feel safe. May feel content. May feel strong. May you live with ease? May all of us everywhere. Feel safe and content and strong and live with ease. Before you open your eyes now. Think of the person to your right to your left. An back of you in front of you and see if as you say, these phrases of blessing in your mind can actually feel that you are radiated out radiating out these blessings. Of well, wishing to them. May feel safe. May feel content. May feel strong. May you live with ease? When you open your eyes. Now look around. Pepsi look to the right since the left and behind it in front and see all the people who've been blessing you? It's a lovely feeling to be a room full of blessing people. Have a mad one of my fantasies. Which has become stronger since the since last week in talking about people power and media power is that the whole world will wish themselves something like that. And we'll have a different world. Well, that's not our typical public radio moment. Michael Elsaesser, you helped make this happen. Lisa martinez. Going to come up. I'm going to do another radio moment is it. I'm Kristie tip it on being conversation about meaning religion ethics and ideas today raising children in complex times a live event held in February at the community house in Birmingham, Michigan in conjunction with public radio station. WD T Detroit public radio. I'm speaking with the wise, Buddhist teacher and psychotherapist, Sylvia. Borstal? Lisa Martina of Detroit metro parent publishing group moderated questions from the audience. Great. Well, thank you. And thank you. I hope it sounds like you've all been really enjoying that. And thank you for that blessing. It was wonderful. I'm going to ask you a question. These are questions that you've all submitted and one sort of relates the blessing that you just gave Sylvia. Someone says I'm wondering about if you could talk about prayer. And before we go, there is blessings as you showed shared with us and saying prayers the same thing or do see a difference between offering blessings and saying prayers and then after that. At the question. Then the guest has is it's a very private experience for me. And I'm not sure how to share it with my children in a natural noncoercive way and is coercion ever recommended. If you're the tiger mom. Yes. We're not talking about her tonight. We'll stay off that subject. So is is a blessing prayer. I think a blessing is a is a kind of a prayer not. You know, I sometimes I've I've had the thought that a whole liturgy could probably be five words like, please. Thank you. I'm sorry, please. Thank you. I'm sorry. I'll try to do better. And I love you that could be a whole liturgy because those are mostly the kinds of things that we say in in in literal life. It is a kind of a prayer. But you know, I actually what comes to mind is I once met a man in a actually in in my synagogue community where we had a meditation group, and we would sit and meditate and sometimes do this blessing practice at the end. And he said at the end, I asked, you know, it was a rather small group. I said we could go around the room, and maybe people would like to share what they prayed for this one person came around to him. He said, I don't pray is said, but I wish and I love that. Because I don't maybe when we say pray, it becomes too complicated. Word like to whom and through what auspices, but everybody knows what wishing means. And when we say, I prayed with all my heart. It means I really wish that, and I think that the blessing is I really wish that, you know, when when I think about my the. People that are dear to me. I wish that so much and you actually feel it in your body. So then the follow up question is about being very private for someone in. How do you encourage your children to engage in in prayer or wishes or blessings? I think it's different for every single person the story. What what seems most clear to me is that children pick up with their parents live. A friend of mine, my friend, Jim Finley who's a Christian can template of psychotherapists said I learned to pray sitting next to my mother in church, and what I understood from him is that he didn't learn the words of the prayer. He learned the feelings out of her body as she sat there. I think that children learn that from us when we bless them in the natural way. If it's part of our way. Then they they they feel right about it. Pleased to have certain kinds of blessing rituals enough family. We still do. But at some point I elaborated on them. So we'd finish a blessing the blessing at the end of the Sabbath. And then I'd say and now everybody kisses everybody, and they all did it for certain amount of years until until my eldest grandchild at some point we finished the ritual. And I said now everybody kisses everybody he said, I don't think everybody does this. I. All of a sudden, they didn't wanna kiss his girl cousins, I think so. But the kissing is extra. Blessing his blessing. This next question reminds me of something I heard a Buddhist monk say when I was on a spiritual retreat. I thought this was so profound after enlightenment laundry. And I thought that you probably are very familiar with that. But that it's part of life. We don't reach nirvana. Well, I think that I I actually I'm glad the lever as it has. No, let me ask you the question. And when wanna get the question. So the question is how can one be a spiritual parent when time and energy, there's not even enough time and energy to fold the laundry and put it away at nine PM. And I wonder if that sort of ties into that trying to maintain spirituality when you have all the chores and tedium of raising a house household of kids and maintaining the house. I think that that is that really points to the issue. This virtuality doesn't look like sitting down and meditating spirituality looks like folding the towels in a in a sweet way and talking kindly to the people in the family, even though you've had a long day or even saying to them. Listen, I've had such a long day, really wonderful. If I could just Foley's, I really love folding these cows quietly, if you all ready to go to bed without me, whatever it is. But I actually think that spiritual parenting people often say to me, I have so many things that take up. They don't have. Time to take up a spiritual practice and the thing about being a parent who might think of themselves as a wise parenthood Virgil doesn't take extra time. It's in folded into the act of parenting, you are full towels and sweet way doesn't take extra time. Thank you to Christiaan. And to you, Sylvia. What would be the best way to approach religion or spirituality with a child or children? If you yourself are confused if you have self confusion. Well, I'm I'm aware that that's a question. That's very present. For a lot of people these days, also because. The world has changed pretty rapidly in the sense as well. People tend to you will often have mixed families of one parent is religious. The other is not or they come from different traditions, and their extended families may have ten different traditions. But then when people become parents, they often still start asking this question. Do I want to have something on her? What do I want to pass on? You know? I I think I said this to you when we spoke. There's no there's no one answer for any family. I believe at least when we spoke for the for the radio shirt, something that a rabbi Sunday Sasso said to me once that. We we all are many of us not all of us have a mother tongue a tradition. We grew up in and we may have rejected that. But she said don't let your tradition be defined by people who may have ruined it for you that that probably is a first place to look and go back. Another thing that I think is. When we don't pass on anything to our children, which is temptation because we know what we didn't like about it. We don't even give them anything to work with reject. Right. I mean, I think there's something to be said for. For offering children what we can. And maybe we rediscover this along with them, and that's all right to and to to honor their questions and give them our questions as much as our certainty. So I don't think we're under quite the pressure. We used to be in previous generation to have the answers and that can be a gift for them to. But then you can search together, I think so speaking of going back or returning there were two questions of their several questions post to you still via about you returning to your faith Judaism. And why you are why did you pursue Buddhism initially. And also, what of the Jewish practice the Jewish philosophy. Are you now reintegrating into your Buddhist practice? Actually, the truth about me is I didn't come back to Judaism, I've never left many people come back. That's true. I actually never left. I had always a very cordial and warm relationship to Judaism, my family was a comfortably a fairly traditional Jewish families. I grew up. I I never questioned that. I was fundamentally Jew in the sense of my native language is sandy Sasso say what happened to me in. I my interest in Buddhism actually didn't have anything to do with with the fact that I was a Jew that did not propel me keep me from it in the nineteen seventies. Which is when I started my meditation practice it had become meditation. It become very interesting to westerners people in large numbers had begun to practice transcendental, meditation, in addition to whatever spiritual religious traditions, they lived in. And it was understood that it might make you feel better these technologies for feeling better when I began to hear about mindfulness meditation people said they felt better from it. I didn't think that I was we searching. A new religion in the place of the one. I had that it was learning technology of practice that might address the fact that I had an action an anxious mind actually, choose to tell it took me a little while to articulate that as a clear understanding of why I was there. The reason I was there on those retreats if I'm really candid myself is it was very hip. Everybody was to meditation retreats, it was what was in in the seventies. People went on retreats and people tried that always different meditative pads. And I actually was introduced to a couple of meditative paths that didn't particularly speak to me. And then I met my teachers and I went on retreat, and I was very touched by what they said. And particularly the understanding about the difference between a life inevitably challenged by pain and complications, but free of suffering that there would be a way to. Train the mind to not make more suffering out of the inevitable challenges of life. And it just sounded exactly true to me made tremendous sense of Hugh some understands that there's something anxiety provoking about life, though, tremendously vulnerable as you talking about Christa. And I thought that my private anxiety was mine. Nobody else had it. But I think that's not true. I think that anyway, I thought that might address my general anxieties, and it was hip, and that was what people did. And I thought about becoming enlightened I for a while. Maybe aronie Asli thought that if I practiced meditation enough that the challenges of life and the pain and the disappointments of it would just I would sail over them with great equanimity that didn't happen that didn't happen. I tell people I tell people that I could have the most profound equanimity, and I am two words away from losing it completely. And then they say what are those two words as well. You have to understand the first phone has to ring ring ring and big of the phone and a voice says Aloma. And it doesn't sound right may complete come. You get that. Because that's all different story. It's not. But the truth is that we are connected in with empathic bonds of tremendous energy. I wouldn't want it. Otherwise, I don't want to sail above my emotional life. What I want to? I don't want the complicate my emotions with worse complications by struggling with what I can't change or by reacting without thinking things through what do I want to do? Now, my feelings of just been hurt. What do I want to do? Now. Do I wanted just so that that was became more and more interesting to me in the beginning. I think I had a more lofty idea of what would happen if I practiced not lot become a lot more pedestrian. I'd like to live kindly with a good heart because I'll be the happiest that way. Well, speaking of kindness, new vote spoke, so beautifully about kindness expressing modeling the way, I think that's an important thing to do as a parent. But you both have had you're in the throes of it right now. Krista key teens I've had teens you've had teams. And maybe some of your grandkids are teens and teens aren't always kind. Sometimes they'd be disrespectful. I was like ten oh, how do you channel disrespect? On this in your teens into kindness. You almost up to date on that you. I'm just saying I'm really I'm really fortunate. I I have I have to kind tildren and. Their fathers British. I don't know if that has something to do with it. But you know, my daughter, especially went through this. We went through these emotional terror years where everything was wrong with me. I was I was the opposite of the way. It looked what I wore what he said where I spoke. It was all bad, and it's just exhausting. I think because it was so exhausting that helped me get through it. I just got so worn down that I couldn't react anymore. So I got kind of mindful about it. I do want to say I having lived in Europe, also though. I think there's a bit of. What's that? What's that phrase? The prophecy that self-fulfilling prophecy in the way, we talk about teenagers and the way we expect them to rebel because teenagers don't rebel in this way, necessarily in other cultures. We kind of set them up and the even the way we talk about teenagers. And I think because I lived in Europe and my their dad, and I are divorced. But we've co parented. We just kind of decided early on. I think we talked to my daughter tells me that she remembers us talking about this. And that we that we didn't expect her to be to go through a terror face to to to rebel against us that that life is complicated. And she would always like us, but we expected her to be a civil human being. And I mean, I think she is kind of remarkably civil just and I can't take any credit for that. She seems to be hard wire. But I also think we can plant these these ideas in their imaginations, and it can be successful. I couldn't say anything more on that. I think that that's really it that that if we don't expect it, and we behave ourselves of I. I remember though that one of my friends at one point. Who is a little bit ahead of me cheat she had four children as well. But of about four started about four years before I did. And she said, you know, between the time that they have fourteen and eighteen you will be you'll fall out of the you will suddenly become not as all knowing as you were when they were younger, and then after they get to be eighteen or nineteen to go off to college come back, and you will be reinstated again. You'll be admirable in your wisdom. Something about just living through those juniors. This idea of equanimity that could be the key. And maybe it has to do with them separating out. They have to move out. So they have to say who needs you, you know, I'm on my own because they really probably worried about being on their own. So perhaps not taking it personally. Right. Really? Shoot everything. She thought about me. I would have probably about that's probably good advice about everything not taking. Get through the day. So this is from a young person who says a young person I struggled to honor tradition. And also find a spirituality that makes sense to me. I often fear that I'm offending my parents, and grandparents adopting religion, and Jewish culture to fit me as parents and grandparents can you offer any guidance to do this with love and with respect your take that one. Well, you just to say that the. I know that it's a struggle for people who are committed to a certain certain religious forms of living. Have they children not want to do it? And you know, an earlier era that would've been unheard of. I don't know. But. When not there now and people are trying different things. And particularly this person saying I'm trying to I'm struggling trying to please them weed seems lovely and to be able maybe to I you know, everybody's situation is different to them. But to be able to say, I love you. And I, and I I love that you concerned and interested about me, and I am finding my own way. And and particularly this question was I'm finding my own forms within this particular religious tradition. So. I am ad. It'll be workable. Okay. Thank you. A question. You both touched on technology is technology affecting our children in a good way in a bad way. Well, I I love the way you brought it up. I it technologies a tool, it's it it. It's it's how we use it. I I hadn't really fascinating experience. I've been thinking about that with Cairo in the news back in the fall. I moderated a panel. And the founder of Twitter was on the panel twenty seven years old. Does anybody know that Twitter started this guy? What's his name is name is scaping me. He started this. He started. What's what became Twitter started as him creating? Instant text messaging for emergency service workers in New York City. It was helping people save lives. There was a young woman on the panel from Kenya. Who used Twitter like technology after the post election violence there to get to get help where where violence had occurred. And I asked her I asked them this question about. You know, how do we with this kind of fretful question? How do we train ourselves? How to those of us who are leaders lead. So so that we work with technology towards the best of what it means to be human. And she said look in Rwanda. It was good old-fashioned radio. That was the medium by which genocide was perfect perpetrated. Right. So so all of our media have that good potential, and that that that dark side. And that's the spectrum of what it means to be human. But I have to agree with you. I think what we're seeing now about how technology is being used in Cairo in Tunisia is absolutely fascinating. And it shows that there's a real fabulous potential nourishing potential humanizing potential. What I think can be the interesting question. For all of us right now is how can we contribute to? In whatever severe we work in to helping us all be aware of technology, and and finding very concrete ways to apply it towards the best of ourselves the best if human potential. It's an interesting moment. To have this kind of rapid change happening in the twenty first century where I think we are more able to ask questions like that of ourselves than we maybe were in the early twentieth century when new technologies were appearing. So I think it's hopeful. And I think we can ask our children invite them to be leaders on this because they ensure it the potential of these things in a way that we don't in their in their bodies. I don't know. That I think those are perfect. I was thinking about again about Cairo that. One of the things that contributed to the success of that movement was it was grounded in nonviolence. And that was part of the teaching didn't just happen last week. It was two years in the making and studying the principles of nonviolent confrontation was very big piece of that whole in the whole planning that out over Twitter and that sending that out over Twitter. I think about again, he was my fantasy that the whole world will say stop doing that. You know, let's just stop right now. So nice really to. We started a few minutes late. But I think maybe one last question. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I'm going to have to pick one of these. All right. So here's a one last question where do each of you turn for wisdom? Oh, I turn to people like, Sylvia. And I turned to my children. I honestly do they understand this world that they are going to be shaping in some ways better than I do whether they can even formulate that. There's lots of wisdom out there. You have to look for. Yeah. I talked to my friends. I mostly mostly discovered that if I'm confused about something if I wait and does something to come down my mind like off a blessings to myself. My mind comes down come calms itself down that wisdom is self relevant Tori, in some way or another. I mean, it's not even it's not like wisdom. I never seriously people go on retreat and on the second day or the third day. What they begin to report as the mind comes down. And they think this thing that I was worried about it's not that big of a deal this thing that was mad about I don't have to take that. Personally. That's just that person's personality that everything else was when the mind comes down, it sees it in a much bigger framework, and it's much more workable, Sylvia. One thing following on that loving kindness. Meditation is also towards oneself, and you share a story in in your writing about. Precisely that you, but your share what you often say to yourself when you're in a moment of anxiety. Okay. So I think this is just great advice. I'm going to hang onto this sweetheart. You are in pain, relax, take a breath. Let's pay attention to what is happening then we'll figure out what to do. I think that's a fabulous fabulous sentences for oneself and for once children of its. I'm so pleased that you found that. Do you know what it's tremendously pleasing to make us? I meet people in some significant numbers who tell me that they say to themselves in moments of distress. I say they say I say to myself sweetheart, you're in pain, relaxed take a breath. I love that a whole bunch of people out there saying to themselves sweetheart. I promised I want to end with the poem. We're gonna let Pablo Neruda have the last word because you mentioned this in your writing as a poem that you always have with you. And I printed it out. And I I think it's beautiful. And I wonder if you'd give that leave that as a gift for all the rest of us. Is this called keeping quiet? Now, we will count to twelve and we will all keep still for once on the face of the earth. Let's not speak in any language. Let's stop for a second and not move our arms so much. It would be an exotic moment without rush without engines, we would all be together in a sudden strangeness fishermen in the cold sea would not harm wail and the man gathering salt would not look at his hurt hands. Those who prepare green wars wars with gas wars with fire victories with no survivors would put on clean clothes and walkabout with their brothers in the shade. Doing nothing. What I want should not be confused with total inactivity life is what it is about. If we were not so single minded about keeping our lives moving and for once could do nothing, perhaps a huge silence might interrupt the sadness of never understanding ourselves. And a frightening ourselves with death. Now, I'll count up to twelve and you keep quiet, and I will go. Thank you, Sylvia. Voice team. Thanks. You. I want to thank Krista Tippett and Sylvia Burstein for being our spiritual guides tonight. Thank you. You were wonderful. Again, we want to thank the wonderful institutions that made the event possible Christian church Birmingham down a university of lavonia. College of creative studies in Detroit and the American Red Cross I want very quickly just let you know about to upcoming metro parent events, we do a lot of events throughout the year. And there's two that I just want to tell you about their great sources of information analogy for knowledge seeking parents and grandparents like yourselves tomorrow from one to from noon to one pm, we're hosting a live web chat with CSM children's hospital in Ann Arbor, you can do this in your pyjamas from your home or at your office. We do these once one of these every month through June. Tomorrow's topic. And this is really important for our children's brains is and and their health and bodily health is keeping young athletes injury free. You can ask expert doctors questions best of all it's free and all you have to. A sign up at metro parent dot com slash mutt. Web. Chats. Secondly, metro parents living with autism workshop every year, we do a wonderful living with autism workshop it returns, Thursday, April twenty eighth and this year, we're pleased to have keynote speaker Eileen Garvan author of how to be a sister. A love story with a twist of autism. And it promises is every year to be a great event, and you can find out more about that and metro dot com and quickly a note about tonight the VIP reception for those of you who bought tickets is in the Adams room. It's just off to the left, but it is a reception only for those who've purchased VIP ticket and enclosing I once more wanted. Welcome back. Michael assessor, the general manager of WD t one a one point nine our public radio station in Detroit and metro parents wonderful partner, Mike. This point. I would really just be gilding the lily. I do want to remind you that on being has an extraordinary online community that I invite you to make yourself apart of as you have made up a part of the WD community have been so generous to us keep the conversation going with them and make sure you let them know how much you appreciated having them come to Detroit. Drive safely. Have a great night. Thank you.
Big Brother 21 Thursday Night Aug 8 Eviction Recap | Kaitlyn Herman
"You we live from my apartment. It's rob has podcasts and now here's a guy who's ready to recap another episode of the season. He's in messier than an alien autopsy. I m rob sister nino. Everybody and welcome to the podcast live here on a thursday nights and other caitlyn halen thursday here in the studio kaitlyn. How are you all of us but i am so thrilled. Amongst angst greatness river lot to talk about here tonight. Caitlyn much like last thursday when you brought in alex willett else you've outdone yourself again here this way honestly welcome yes sir okay. We have you with us not one but two great guests to join us on the panel tonight. Please welcome from big brother twenty daily and swaggie cr here in the studio <hes> <hes> we have broken attendance records here in the studio. We've never done this before never had three s here in the studio at one the front up. It's crazy how you guys doing. We are usable heat regular okay visiting caitlyn. How's the has been. It's been good with a long pause. I'm thinking okay. We're visiting like a lot of this. Okay okay now not just as kaitlan amazing for sure for sure for sure into over here. Okay let me know in the chad. If anybody's mike is his <hes> <hes> yeah not allowed enough that you know a lot of a lot of moving parts here of course also with us here tonight sure man. Who's a very happy the panel mr parole up. How are you very happy with the panel gang gang alright all right. Oh god as a lot to talk through tonight here with the vic shin of jack a lot of bills that would never happen then but it did it happened. It happened kaelin your your reaction to jack who once upon a time that you are just just just another other new face. Yes chess is sir off win that have been called. Just another female face avoid the era of women call that i feel like throughout history history west is number regular history. I mean yeah so java the face again. I made an announcement to you a few times ago and i'll say it again. You are something else something okay all right so we'll talk about. Jack will talk about julie's interview with legitimate have scoliosis by the end of this podcast. We'll go. Let's go back to the white shot. I don't want to back and i won't we won't be here. We don't have to <hes> we could say on the white shot. I think we're i think we're fine. I can stand up straight right and then we will talk about our new h. O. h. and is tommy. I i we actually do tommy. H i mean i not here for tommy h h because it's going to be all tommy all week long sure that we're going to get tommy's like like intended results out of this week but the field trip in play but we'll see a field trip looms large and we'll talk about all of the ramifications. Can you believe this. This field trip could ruin by joe. H this could be the worst. They joe javer like when you say anything that ends with what should be an e._r. Ah la starting. Can you believe in america talk about that. Voting is still going on for the the field trip and we will see that on the sunday night episode get your questions in hashtag are h. All right <hes> so balian swaggie <hes> we we haven't gotten your take on other than when caitlyn facetime to you a couple of weeks ago big big brother twenty-one at the halfway point. Are you guys feeling on the season overall. How honest can we be honest so i'm not gonna lie like i am disappointed in bb twenty-one because this is my first out of the house i didn't watch b._b._c. before and i was like really excited to get into. It and i'm very disappointed with the cast. Also <hes> tried unsuccessfully like i've really tried multiple times to watch. It and it's like this is not for you pulling teeth. I wanna scream at the television and i'm so glad i'm not in my house because our go nuts on me. I don't really like the season. I've watched two episodes. He's in the two one of them was taken over for the incident and the second one was just now yeah i heard like all the tweets and you didn't even watch the whole thing and you game late so like he was wide site so now with the turn in the game but now with jack being gone from the house. Is there more reason for optimism awesome yes. I'm excited because like jewish at the end of the episode. There is no clear like power looming over the house. Now can actually see some gameplay. I wanted to game play. I don't wanna see politics and people being mean in jack and jackson's shell like over. I just wanna see game play all right brent. Was that a fair assessment by julie elite to say that there. There's no power structure in the house anymore no. I don't think that was fair. I think there are power structures in the house right now. Ah i mean you could tell by the end of that competition that christie insists can contain themselves. They're so happy tommy one and nick was obviously throwing it because you didn't care if you want an honor of tommy anyone so i i feel like there are a couple different power structures in the howson. It's just not it just that the former big power structure is not as powerful oh as it once was but there are still remnants of it and they're still people or trying to keep it together like i will just tell you guys that prior to tonight. Tommy told jackson holly that if he want h h he would not put them up which sounds to me like the former six now the former five sorta kinda together maybe so. I don't know what's going to the line really hard to get him back together. He has little meeting so i'm sure he wants the structure that because he was living together this is dangerous where tommy is the one person person on that side of the house that really i think can see down the road a bit and i think could potentially do what's in the best interest of that group moving forward word and maybe potentially be the diplomat the try to mend the fences from this past week and we have a lot of faith in this field trip because oh chip of yes all right guys. We've been wrong well. I haven't i'm usually right but like you guys were very very up in arms about jessica h. o. h. which last asked me not for the tommy. H is going to be a good thing. We just don't know what can happen. We're so quick to pass judge. We know is happening trip. How freakin epic would it be. If christie went home well. We can probably let let's let's. Let's like good weight and well. Let's let's let's look ahead in a little bit. I think we need to talk about the interview that julie did with jack act tonight because i think that that was sort of an alzheimer and one that will remember for a long time whenever julie starts playing the clips for house guests getting them to comment on that and now brent going back to with arran in big brother fifteen. What what am i complain about that was was that i think that they should played clip for aaron to respond to to be able to you know give her the chance to be able to talk like know what she talking about so i really did like that. We got to see the clips but to me i. I thought that this was a little weird that we that the audience is seeing these clips for the first time here clips from the live feeds that were not at all addressed on the show obviously because back then jack was the golden boy he was the jason mimosa. He was the guy that everybody was into during the first few weeks. That was what he called me by the way this is. He was somebody that production production was putting all their eggs in and then once everything turned they decided to jump off the train and bury him which few people predicted coming into tonight that that's what would happen happen. I would say that the i was really here for its and i was glad that they showed the clips mainly because then you can't get a response from aaron where she says. I don't remember saying those things when you can see right your own lies however <hes> the one question that julie didn't ask him which i wanted her to ask. S. cam was so you jack. We're in control by all accounts for the first four to five weeks of the game. Have you noticed anything about the first four people that actually left the house. Did they have anything in common. Why were the first four people just happen to be people of color. I ask him that. Did you notice that was happening or was. Were you completely oblivious to that because i don't feel like there's a right answer no matter what he says and i feel like you could really pin him down yeah so duly onto. I'm to ask him a bunch of questions. In the interview he started to explain what was going on in the house said <hes> i i. We got some game talk doc and i did like when he was talking about how he was that he had this deal with jack looking back. I probably should've trust russell jackson but i made a decision jackson. Who you guys also mickey. That's his last. Thank god he wasn't talking about it. He had to deal with themselves it. We can't say you cannot say jackson in front of in front of julie's but in talking about his game jack jack had this to say you can't live life undergrad. You gotta stand by the choices that you make whether they're right or wrong so that was a very is no right or wrong look now. I was back regrets. What's what's what's done is done so this is a julie after playing the the clip for for jack in the interview. I'm cool jazz nicole. Everybody comey makes me want to stop a mud hole through chest controversy all right so this cap. You called her a bitch call. Their dog poop didn't use the word poop and we just heard you said you want to stop a. I'm not hall to her chest watching that now. What are your thoughts okay well. I will say that the stop the mudhole comment is based on something thing that sam said last season when she was frustrated when you said that that was in regards to you know this sava mudhole through the chest was infamously asli about me and i just wanted to say that like for him to 'em. We joke about it and stuff but i'm being so honest right now like that's. It's actually triggering to hear because it's not not like a jew. It's really not a joke like especially like when someone says that about something. Someone like just because sam said it. She was joking when she said it's over you to copy what she said. I'm pretend like it's a it's an odd it's actually very violent and so for can wear and you have to read like the climate like obviously country. She's a girl. She's talking about another girl. You're a physically like statues scary guy about talking about another girl that is also a girl of color so you have to be aware of the climate so even though you're like oh we were joking. No oh because you called her a bitch before then right after you followed up with you really just honestly would've done one thing like if he literally said nothing about her. All season was kind. They were friends and then if he wants us like yeah i was joking like i'm quoting sally sure but like it it adds onto the fact that peoria so stop <hes> some more from this part of the interview and i don't think there was any personal vendetta in behind saying that i think my statements were playful in a group of people. I do apologize for what i said. <hes> and that's very sincere i think i think comey was and he's a great person. I think this game and being in twenty four hour view of people and you say things and <hes> <hes> i wouldn't say i wouldn't say that i fully support the things that i said the way that i said to him. If i could take them back i would and i wish i could have articulated in some other way possible okay if he could take it back <hes> he he he he would but often can't live life undergrad regret standby later wrong. He's going to need a ton of time on this but since the show uh-huh spent time on a mini on it wasn't just about like specific things that he said because i see people some people in chatter like oh without comment by itself was terrible but it wasn't racist racist how he talks to cammie that he treated her and david and obi like animals like the jets really how he treated mm-hmm and of course like they they it didn't help that the can't come back thing they had them in uniforms on eight totally ostracized them from game talk but like his talk with kemi about the water bottle in the fridge tells you all you need to know about jack and how he views cami. He's so effing condescending to her and there's no part of me that believes the actually thinks that she's a nice person. He hates her sure. It was not playful. It was not placed wasn't there so i can be like kaylynn gosh right yeah. Blah blah blah laughing there to defend ourselves now. I don't know how much they film in the jury house say if we could get live feeds in the journal okay all right bailey is that like the next person that walks in the door and the jury house and he's like oh they really they really did me dirty on that and you know he goes off like go tell you what about cami. I still can't stand her. That would be the they should play that clip. They should but they won't they'll. They'll be on his head. I had not to speak anything about it. You know right yeah and this is what i really want. Okay so now. We're okay so whenever we went here with jack what would happen if jack's jackson aka mickey for those of you guys who don't know that that's his last name and what will happen. If he gets voted out next week will he get dragged dragged the same way. I think that they will. I think that like this was it okay. It was all jack not jackson. I think they might say something. No i think that they needed to pin it on jack and then now they need another golden boy so they're hoping that mickey will fill that a position and there's got to do that. I'm like caitlin these because tommy tommy can heat he will never golden boy. I'm sorry like there is a certain. There's a fit and he doesn't fit well they shouldn't have. I mean what agreed but you know they always. He's the only person that i truly feel like i i. I have absolutely no interest jackson. No jack i mean both not great but like jack particularly like i have literally no interest in even like messaging hand i mean i mean there's nothing. There's nothing to say to him or hot. Hold you do that. I would ride early. Uh cut to next summer when holly hey guess who's coming into the studio nikki touching next summer when like hersh bring jack and jackson coming here thursday night jack jackson in the studio they were controversial but now they're my impasse fans. Actually i can see that happening now happening now. We also got to see a lot of punishments punishments in this episode tonight hailing. You were here for the punishment. Oh i got a hoot and out of the situation i was sitting on the couch laughing so much and i typically don't like bits like that. It was ten minute rob literally softimage like that was the entire resigned resigned i could've i could've had forty five minutes of that. I have that for the whole episode. I thought it was the funniest thing i've ever seen brent. Did you like it. It was great. I mean the alien doctor. I could take it or leave it. Whatever but the angry alien scrape because i felt like the the the the alien was trying to tell jack that like we're not all here for him. He is reading stupid on his stupid tattoo. Hello my name. Is him scrub the toilet. Can i put you in there. I put you in the toilet mannerisms rob. You're very doing impressions and voice over overwork. You're really gonna work any way that you could. Maybe do a quick bit of your best alien alien. He did yeah the yak noise. I was gonna pull this clip but it was just too annoying but by the early burn on jack after that was it was a nice for twenty four hours. Now that guy was no stranger to the big brother twenty caveat z. lobby because he was a rachel's punishment and then he also was the grandmother or no. It was mr patacula grandmother yes yes. I'd say that this is sort of gotten lost to time but the musical number that you guys did i think they made it like in the next episode. That was really a phenomenal the magic the song like like though like the whole thing there for it. Nobody was there for the was that was that the grandma ninety a wasn't. I thought that was casey's punishment. Oh oh yes earn the same time because she was like yeah. It was casey because she had the weights. Granny was in the backyard with her walker. It's really great. I don't know you have a when you have to remember what it was called. You don't yeah we'll never gonna work. Yeah i remember that words. We'll never know for another day another day. Either clip called fethi fitness. I don't know what this is on. Ask for that. Wait look at that says you guys just go. We have a lot of clips. We will reflect life working yeah. I'm totally not go good my brain. Will you be alien autopsy guy. I know i watched it on. The feeds and with jackson getting signed coming back constantly when it used to be on t._v. What are you talking about general o. X. files and me. I'm more like i'm more fantasy less sci-fi church yeah aliens i zero thoughts on aliens here on his area for stuff going on on on on todd know someone. I'm crushing did an alien autopsy on next generation on. You probably think i'm not benoy explode right yeah. Okay exactly all different colors. Apparent author deliver all different civil. I am an alien. Somebody remove me attitude security security coming in my show your way into it yeah so entered etc in-car do so. What would you like to see that performer that i believe that his performing name is big. Dick johnson is that his eric signed zayn told me his name is okay. I will pay you have no idea. I can't imagine his name is dick. Johnson dan the look on their i._q. Says only report one told apparently and so yeah he's talking about yeah yeah the guy guy b- actor played keep up okay all right so <hes> we got to see jack. Make an effort to <hes> really a we saw the hog father tonight inaction kate. I liked that that yeah what'd what'd you think of jack's offer of four weeks of safety. I mean queue but like i am going to guarantee safety unless you literally are in control control of everyone else right brand did cliff actually consider this in the diary room. That's a real good gotta think about that. This was go play in the big brother game with the producers and giving them a little material later lead as lilly what is literally what it said our ass saying around. I don't really believe it so that was an offer he could refuse unfortunately father that was that was all right so did this thing too right right yeah. He did at least for one second finger tap at least at least for one once i can. He did that so we let's. Let's let's talk about tommy and his h h and this is really a very tricky week that we're going to go into because of we're going to have the field trip which means that. We're going to have a third nominee in play which also means that we are going to only have six people voting the next week so depending on who's up on the block. That's going to really end up tilting the scales sales will one way or another and with tommy only having a couple of allies in the house between cysts and christie and potentially nick at this point that the those that voting block of three if they are not in the on the block <hes> then they're going to have a lot of power especially if tommy is going to potentially break a tie one way or another and there's a lot of different different ways this can go sideways so since tommy is immune from the yes. I believe he's not going to so just to reset how the field trip is going to work so the america has been voting since last sunday somehow if they could find where the votes the kaelin did you vote not yeah yeah well. That's what he would vote for christie's and hall holly. Okay you gordon jackson. Did you know there's journalists. Though this journalist emma journalist est- your journalists still okay brian. Have you been voting no on a journal. That's what i haven't been voting and absolutely not anybody will tell you. Bryant is completely impartial. He's not gonna fractional. That'd be yes. That's exactly what i am. You know i it's too hard to find the page. Bread can find it i don. I am obsessed with this show. I still can't find the page. No i really don't the vote for i mean vote for jackson christie and says oh okay jack whispering now. Here's where it's save. Jack was probably somebody who was in the top three. He's gone. He's out of the mix out. Dummy is probably somebody who is in the top and now he's taken out of the mixture mr definitely s._t. So definitely christie is going to be in there and then jackson jackson. Do people know enough who cisse's <music> nikki these other people tell you that <hes> big brother network which is usually pretty accurate not always accurate site <hes> they are reporting that cliff is actually fifth in the voting right now mainly because a lot of people don't understand it like the show is targeting as you wanna. Give him safety. Do you want want to get them nominated like whether you wanna do so. It's like you know people casuals. No we liked cliff or like daylight clips so some people are stupid enough to be voting for him right. There's a in jeopardy yeah. They really don't the way that it's gonna work is that somebody is going to be safe some so they can't happy nominated. Somebody is going to get a punishment which i'm sad time. He can't get the punishment brenton interro yeah yeah and then also so we'll have that somebody is going to be on the block third nominee so whoever wins the competition they'll be safe i guess and then whoever atas wave might not be physical. No i know but i would rather just see three people that i'm like very indifferent about which are like. I don't want even the chance that he's safe safe brent. I think that this is also going to be just as important where not just who is on the block but whose get who gets to vote this week also yeah exac. Yeah nominees split over three people. Only six people are voting that it's huge just to not be on the block this week huge and also if tommy me came gather three people that he trusts and can get to work together in some fashion breaking power and not on the box right exactly if they're not on the buck. That's the prob yeah yeah so. This is really <hes> speedo step. We can't forget about that like what if you throw some people up they win. They take take him now you you doesn't have that. Many options left yeah very strasse. You're stressed out. Can i also say that. Kaitlyn also manifested this tommy h._o._a. Achieve she called it. This is her second row. That's right shanks caitlyn now in fairness. It was tommy's birthday tonight so happy happy birthday you. The rent's never hate it one more. I can't stand him. I mean maybe it's just a little bit of projection on my part but i don't feel well like i am that flamy and i feel like i'm just like bitch. Turn the flame down just a little big little appreciated she cited brands and i do appreciate you had a moment of self acknowledgement and he said projecting that was very good now. It's actually really hurt right himself. That kick that kick was aloha pumped up. He's excited <hes> he's. He's really that we do have a very the most delicious scenario scenario is that christie ends up going into this field trip and somehow that why would be incredibly incredibly delicious that if christie could end up on the block here by way of the field trip and then go out on h._o._a. It's a possibility manifestos slasher. Any money is payback for haley's h._o._a. Excited about haley's h._o._a. Hacker hacker twist don talk to me about it. I know wait chest about no no. I just seemed really. I hate okay. Most we hit him speaking of haley. She came up in this episode tonight that yes because that much like swaggie see that she was a spot on the veto board. You you see this last night. Told me oh yes yes. Yes and you had that little voice update jesse. You were one of the spots it's on the map on the b._b._c. galaxy and so was haley's comet a which caused a nick to say this since haley's comet. It's only right for me to tell you how ravishing today why thank you but i need you to cast your vote buddy jack back row totally whatever my head so funny. You should tell that party at jokes caitlyn mike okay lynn heard royce's rasping she needs. She took some cough medicine. I wanna hear your beautiful voice. Mama voice is not great in our heart. Just being bashful today sometimes are but you're not just very directional. If if you don't if you don't talk phone shy yeah good gas. Sorry yeah okay so nick. What a jokester how cassidy go hug tommy after he wanted me and it's just shows you how bad he's playing like. I mean i could tell and the house could tell that he was throwing that h h before even got off office starting line and human like oh. Can i sleep with the h h room if i don't win this. Is that okay tommy here how he was doing in each competition titian i mean it's one thing to play the middle as eric stein said last night it's one thing to play the middle and babb where everyone is is that you and tommy is aware that necas playing the middle in his not devoted to him right now so i don't think he's going to get nominated this week but tommy doesn't have everything invested diabet- nick scott one foot in that h. o. h. room already one foot foot exactly exactly has tommy. Tommy won't put him up now. No i don't think so all right so i guess let's play this this out. Okay who <hes> who will tommy put on the block. I'm thinking help put up. Maybe like a cliff and a maybe nicole but i don't really know. I don't know anything you put up call. Maybe a jess if he's villain volleyball but i guess there's two ways this could go where he targets the outsiders the people that were working against the six or there's the vengeful spiteful move which i guess we can hope happens. I know there was talk during this past week that oh it's cat and holly that are going to be on the block. If was the h. I. that'll be a chance of that but tommy he also didn't even vote against a ah jackson tonight he voted to jack was the sixth votes evict jack caitlin yeah he. Do you think he's making he's gonna make the cliff and kohl move for some reason. I don't mourn when i really don't think he's going to do it. I think that he is a smart player and now now. It's his time to make his move into shoot his shot at joan. I don't see him. I could see maybe one of them but i don't think he's going to do to the others is going for like someone someone in the middle like a cat or a neck john architecture see them putting them new. No cabin like i can see him as a replacement. But what did i say i said since nick hugged him i he's going up. There's like like oh big brother cars for every time you hog the person that wins. I should go up. He hugged. I hugged angel. Afars plan my ass on the block million the weird thing so he might go up. Maybe maybe the cat is the person who probably needs to be most worried about h h things play out in a way where tommy has control over who's going home because that's cannery henry sassy with tommy throughout this week and accused she has been avenue life invested in her manifested in her caitlyn because komo goal and she's been telling tommy like well. So why was i and clinton nicole. I'll promise six or seven place in a six person alliance when he's like oh. I don't really think about that and she knows that he's lying so and he knows that she knows that he's lying so i do think that cats and there's a good possibility she's gonna go up on the block. Also tommy is the one person who's been able to see through a lot of cliffs game. Play so i also feel like cliff doesn't end up as the nominee by way of america's field l. trip. I do think there's a chance that he could not new class. Maybe i would like nicole was safe. That would be good <hes> yeah. I think the nicole would be safe as long as she. He doesn't get nominated by tommy <hes> the one that keep in mind though even christie goes up on the block by way of america's field trip. There is not a guarantee that she's going to go home and also. I don't know what happens <music>. I'm gonna guess i can. I think this is the way it worked like during other times. They've had three nominees if like christie wins the veto. I don't think there's a replacement nominee. I think it just goes down to two you so we'll we'll see how that plays out but that could be big going even if it's one of the actual nominations and not the other if it's one of tommy's nominations i think he gets to replace. They said it's america's field trip. I think did it during the roadblock competition. If you use the veto on the third nominee who went up to by artificial means and they just come down and that's it so breath it would just be really huge to have somebody that was from the six shooters as that third nominee potentially from the field trip so hopefully if the if if the votes come through and then you can have one of those people end up being the non the nominee because if you figure that sis is not going to we on the block no matter what and then you know if christie and nick sitting out there that's enough to get the three and it could potentially you have to hope that jackson and holly and up on the side with also just in the call one thing to keep in mind that if cliff doesn't up on the block next to someone like cat obviously highly jackson. I'm i'm gonna try and keep cat but nick is aware of gender imbalance in the house right now they six to four girls two boys right now and also jessica has shown that she does not wanna put up any girls she only wants to put up guys and he has talked about that with cliffs so i think that nick who does have some sway over tommy not a ton ueli is going to exact pushing gene for him to target cat and not cliff. I think nick has a okay relationship with cliff doesn't want to see him charcoal. My only problem is if somebody from the six goes up. There's not going to be enough votes to get that person gone. That's my only problem because it'll be close. You're thinking of it. This way. Christy goes up on the block that means the tommy's down to two votes sis and maybe like doc young so then it's like well. If christie ends up on the block i think hollywood river jackson wanna get rid of her rights anybody else nicole. They would all all that would be nice. I can find four votes that would get rid of christie if she was up on the block and nicks no fan of her either although he has been better with christie in the past two days different when that person is on the block yoshimoto the vote amount as opposed on the blocks or did tell jackson holly that he wouldn't put them up even if you h but that was when he didn't have h h i still something there's a snowball's chance in hell that he might actually go after jackson because christie once jackson out of the house although she is pissed at some other people right house and even her anti-jackson feelings have dissipated a little bit brent. What do you think about a scenario where jackson ends up being the third nominee by way of the field trip with the house vote him out then or would that <hes> in some ways as end up pushing holly back to the tommy six shooter side of the house and hey. We have to save jackson. We have to get out wherever tommy's other nominees minis are. It just depends on what tommy is pushing because if it's three nominees on the block and they all three stand the way into the week that means that tommy is going to have some tiebreaking power our up some say in respect the h h which they always say in the house. I don't know it's very hard to predict what's going to happen. I think the jackson could go home as consistent insistent consensus boots for everybody but especially when it's gonna be very tempting for christie if jack's on the bach and you have a free shot to get him out or are you really going to pass pass that up when he's been coming for you and you know that you would have been nominated by him if he had won h._o._a. Himself i i i think that's going to be tough for her to pass up now. We had the <hes> great luck tonight to have bailey here for the h. Competition which was the same one and you wanted to grow twenty consec citing time guy. That was exciting. Yes what is the secret to that h. Challenge honestly it's body weight so i think that both of us have kind of the same background like a yogi balancer. He's a dancer and we're used to just like holding your body weight so you have to just be able to stay centered then when you see yourself. Aren't you just all your affect. Not that hard. Honestly just like my weight was perfect for it. I didn't do anything special. Yeah cap was really playing it up like oh my god. I don't know what's going what's happening. I don't know what i'm doing that definitely yes. Yes yes kaelin. I don't think that's gonna work this week. Though i think i think tommy's onto cat and also interesting why does the dumb girl persona part of the time but then like all throughout this week. She's been like a new cat in the house and other people have noticed buddhist tommy playing it. She's playing it up because i know cat and i always say this cat was big. You know her pat when you know her know her cat. That was a baylor girl. I'm a baylor girl girl. I'm going to school at the same time each other. We ran into each other. She has like each other. She's not that dumb this game now now. We haven't hung out yeah. I agree. She's not that job as a very interesting education and now and hadn't girls we. We can act very that see but we're not yeah okay. You know holly now. I didn't know how okay all right so we got a teaser. He's for the upcoming week also and i think a lot of us were expecting next week to be double eviction thursday. Typically julie will tell us a week ahead of time you know double vision and is it possible that we're just gonna have one yeah. I think it is just wasn't a double victims. Look into the fourth resident jury last year so debris. How how many do we have last season that we had the one where where bob brett went out. That was the in britain here. It was just one okay but we got to 'cause. They were counting on someone to do this puzzle though so well so it all right so but you know we really should have been saying. I'm gonna give it to swaggie no. I'm saying it should have been sam the first i night oh okay all right jack. You say there are regrets right da- yeah. There are no regrets. Live your life with absolutely no regrets like you're allowed to have. That's right you're supposed to no you're like actually not so you're supposed to you're not supposed to be perfect like i do silly things all the time and if i want to be like no i like perfect yeah but no it's not that it's just like the growth that comes comes from it so like you're supposed to like not coaching session. Okay okay right. Private times is good stuff so understood what you mean because he wants to say no regrets what he is trying to say is like. I don't want to give back the growth that i think that i got from that but you can have regrets influence shape the grow address them. We need to address something. That's like the elephant in the room right now. Okay what is it your top. Your black blouse call the blah blah i different shirt on and we had an audible right before the start of the show and i have a closet full of shirts here in the studio to be able to switch between podcast very quickly. Kaelin picked out this this sherpur me and honor honor of honor of the watermelons and the house being smashed by the alien eyebrow honor of gallagher alligator. Yes fat heart so on brand tonight. We just thought that was a cool moment in fact he's on brand everyone every i don't know how a white t shirts. I'm brown and don't come from me. He's talking about. I've got another clipper alien for you palin <hes> so this was when jack was brushing his teeth. This was one of the things the abrash back now is so funny. I was kind of shocked at that. You have the clips where he's just like making sound. The people not like that if i had like i <music> this was another line that i liked tonight that i always learn new expressions in the big brother house this was i made a flaw. Everyone made a floor yeah. I think that's just a twenty one thing. I don't think you're flaw he. Did you make any flaws in the twenty. Yes woah. We all dead made by right. He make off off today. They make a flaw like like the bottom of the room. Yeah no that's law in the flaws. These little flaw the worst punishment of one mellon it before we get into the questions here tonight. Let me say thank our sponsor for subsurface those our friends over at purple mattress and purple ripple they understand that your attitude and your ability to be happy and productive depends on your ability to get a good night's sleep. That's why they make the have not room so uncomfortable. No purple mattresses up there in the have not room in camp comeback. 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That's in addition to the great free gifts. They're offering site-wide just text rob two eight four eight. The only way to get the free pillow is text text. The word rob the eight or eight eight eight that are o._b. Two eight four eight message and data rates may apply <hes>. Let's bring in some questions brench shaking his head okay. Let's let's you guys. I'm just like the hearing all right all right <hes> <hes>. Let's see wow wow production hate analysts that much thoughts on this yeah. I'm surprised okay so all right right so i'm surprised you know big brother that the fan base we love conspiracy theorists would have been smarter for for the storm area fifty one people to wait. 'til after big brother season is over as nobody loves conspiracy theories like the big brother audience share. She has to be over the line. Y'all okay but but i mean if you look at this picture though is over the one okay well. Let's what needs to be over the line and she does like her person. I would assume on like when i won. I was all the way past the line like my whole life tv. I think it'd be hard to art uh-huh. Do they have sensors yeah. I don't know i don't know exactly how you guys would say. I did say this. I called analysts is winning h._o._a. I was like this isn't gonna win but i'll go but that's okay all right well. Let's fine people that found this picture of cysts with the time of nine point zero seven fine tommy crossing the finish line. Let's see even more okay all right. Let's take another question. Vallon wants no mention of the double victory for jerry buyback tonight. We assume that means we are done with jack us. Here's here's what you can work with jack the way that they dragged him tonight jewish. That's the only a goodbye message. Yes yes which you you know. Julie did not have a great transition with telling jack about why he didn't get to see his goodbye messages. Yes all right. Let's see guber. Guber schwartz says i know how how ethic would it be. There was a picture of christie in one of tommy's h. o. h. photos it would be pretty epic pictures that closely brent shades of derek getting pictures of him in copy uniform and big brother sixteen. I think it would be funny but i think they're well aware of this connection with tommy and christie's so there's no chance i a bit his aunts might end up in a picture as a wink wink and then you know it's up to christie is she can keep that secret and she's gonna flash for for it. Though i would want it to like like the year so i would like to see i really should all right. Let's see t._v. Lauren who says <hes> production just trolls tommy and gives them tons of pictures of his ad exactly <hes> yeah. That's the same same idea okay they the. I asked the same thing what does s. k. D. one four three sharon kelly dan. Oh i love you yeah. Daniel sharon daniel brent that's beeper code right. I couldn't tell you wrong yeah. Okay all right all right for my bobby. Carl wants is not the best look for julie to tell jack that he didn't get gypped on goodbye messages after him as his racially insensitive comments. Now that's not that's not great heard heard that and then not maybe maybe you'll join moon that says a lot of her own issues that <hes> yes. I literally don't even know what that yeah. <hes> gypped. It's a term for short for the term. Genuine rains literally but i don't know why i believe it's a i don't want to believe it's the roma remind people <music>. I'm not sure but that's okay. It's not good okay all right all right wariness. Every single awareness alex g says why is it that love island gets its own app for the audience vote in big brother. Thank you so hard. They even find where to vote the only reason twist or a._f._p. Is because it's complicated. I won't what i will say that. Since we were on like the love island like sat and stuff they came with the different social media team because they're from a different country we inherited love island and they have a different social crazy yeah yeah so we don't watch every part of the big promotion yes but they don't we'll have the same social media teams so maybe this was the new social media team or a different one there. That'd be a good idea all right so this is from. This is <hes> taurine you think the three nominees might end the week with vote to save. That's why it's a double fiction fiction choose to this happening. Era likes to pump up their double addiction live. I have episodes like it's a big event for them. There's no way that jewish not gonna talk about it this thursday in this slide it in next thursday. There's that is that is crazy. Talk okay hi. This is jennifer laney bay how was steve harvey and family feud now. That was very interesting right right the u._s. You're on with your family is free big brother. Yeah we found it like maybe two weeks before. I left our big brother and it was awesome. Actually i did. I know i was going to get a husband out of this but steve was like literally beautiful. Can i introduce you. My son like i literally obsessed with you and then i was like yeah sure j._k. Steve i'm kind of taken by yeah yeah. Oh sorry sorry of that. How how was that fun. Oh my god south on like it was so nerve racking to play in every frigging speed round on an obviously. I wasn't that good of it for people who i was like freaking out and i could not get my words out but we want some money so now that's good. That's good all right. I'm link twenty five and what we're a family of five split it like after that you can five feet which was down to like four which like i said my mom's in spending three seconds. It wasn't that much yeah okay. All right. Gain has a question why why did rob sooner lead jackson aka mickey choose his shirt tonight. No i did not let jackson i choose. My shirt wasn't okay. Let's point fingers. I will say that it was not jackson influence. It was more the the alien work that was done tonight out. There was a lot of watermelon smashing on the flaw so you know in if a few as us and last week again there's a lot of vegetables. A lot of fruit work happening this season and decide to stay in a lot of produce action on brand young. Yes isn't an owed to jack owed to produce. We also had an ode to another thursday night tv character uh of the past from nicole tonight. Please catch your vote tour victory though to just jack shout <music> out kaylin. You don't know who that is from willing gray's well. Yes i was told but is a show that i should be going back and watch. It's an actual show. It's like a show within a show will and grace the there was a character named jack. He was like the gay best friend of the main character who also gay but like jack was the really flamy one and he had his own like he couldn't get a job job. I as i recall in acting so he just made up his own. One man show called just check. It sounds like have you ever seen that show. Never it's great show and every time like that. His name would come up he would he wouldn't answer jack he would go just hack and it became so there was a cute little bit for it was surprised we haven't heard this season okay. I have to say i'm funny funny. I was weird young. I'm funny tiny. You look ravishing tonight yet. It yeah okay honey honey. I know caitlin. I don't know how you feel about this like. I feel like there's an outside shot of nick winning this game just just because like no one's really coming for me. Blame the middle a but at night game in the middle and i do feel like that it <hes>. He's got a better chance of winning so we'll see my son. Anything's possible. I might basel. I will say that out of everyone left act. I can think of a situation that would be worse than than winning of course. I'm trying to say as positive as possible. What would be what would be. The worst case scenario suggest winning survey is not yet. Another nickel has no chance of winning. I'm sorry to lease wins big big brother twenty one we are. I bow down like this joe we are but who do you think she was wrong. Who who do you think that's left. The quota point deserves to win it in the morning. Yeah who that's left deserves to win out. Who do you think cliff jessica i. I don't think that i do i think at least one of them is at least one yeah or do within the votes in the jury house have to sway their in their direction and i don't know if they will. I don't know i see it happening. Okay you see winning u._c. U._c. sys- winning happening i see i see one of the people that's on the six shooters. Yeah okay if nicole's and pinal too. I think that people would vote our <hes>. I think every time we go for class are getting far yeah. I'm telling you six. I ah jessica's got a chance to win. Well really does if believably after she won and veto this week and got out of big targets people oh not coming forward not yeah okay all right. Let's across from gregory. Mcbain hugh take requests for manifesting things caitlyn caitlyn. If so i'd love to memphis christie going home on tommy's h h because the field trip. I think it would be delicious. Yeah then now account is caitlin dash harman harman. I tax return. I was like what did you call me yeah. No if you want me i'll put it in my players. Okay all right all right. Let's go to mr anybody taryn. Do you think that given even the ads you. Jack realizes how screwed he is. When he gets out of the house i think he did because this is what he said at the end of the interview to any future big brother hopefuls and it's like nothing you'll ever do in life if you if you guys get the opportunity don't in the way yeah that really surprised julie to allah from the audience yeah. I was really surprised also at the the enthusiasm louisiana some of the audience when john came out. I was convinced that it would be a bit of a silent no. They won't let them do that. They do that around more. I mean people can feel cobbing. I mean they're big. Brother live tape. That's such as dumb rule because what why why make the audience cheer for somebody and then it's like oh and now we're going to play harba. Comair says well why did you maybe because for this person i didn't want to. I love when you act like you're so this. Is you playing the part of the general oughta. Maybe they wanted to clap yeah. Maybe they wanted to hand. You just rose if you're listening to the martin us rob as we have to see if we hear from anybody that was at the show okay all right. <hes> big brother wicky wants to know gotta ask rob. How many people can you fit in that room. I mean i think we have more room to fit people in. It's a it's a matter matter what we only have three chairs. That's one thing a second is will run out of microphones at some point yeah yeah so just too much too much too much and that's like this is great. I love this this is this can't do more than this move. This is great. Okay <hes> all right. Let's take a dad bringing the whole pre jury next caitlyn bob you would be. I take it back yesterday. I said the big brother twenty should have a reunion with andy. Cohen is the host. I've never ever taken something back more my life. We need to host all right well. I need you in a nice velvet chair in the middle of a banquet hall and every two long long chairs on the sides and you have everyone in gowns and suits and everyone's gonna come and play their part. We're busy that day. If you're busy then everyone wants to do it because we're all busy that day sequined account and a positive attitude so all right. Tim has a question okay. What did kaitlyn get for dinner. Rob owed her so that's a good question because i was text. I started texting kaitlan nine o'clock this morning and i said caylin order dinner when he want. What what do you want. What what what what else say order so. I said bob did actually say this. I'm on a monster. Two beautiful children wife like not have to buy me dinner like it was all in good fine. No no no come on yeah. Nothing me. I'm not gonna let you buy me dinner. He's hurt but you you requested dinner last week. Gap butter was all in good fun. See like i would have brought eugen arm but then it comes down to like your father. You have a beautiful home. You have children to take care of no all right well. I will if you ever won anything. If you ever want refreshments at the show i will get them for you. Okay fine okay. I'll read it. I'll read a comment from jason. Beast swaggie heats caitlyn it so obvious guys we. We love each other exactly my home. Also we've done. I will say it's impossible to catch every but i feel like we've done a pretty good job of police in the comments and there's a lot of love for you guys in a chat tonight right yeah okay all right what else what else we need to talk about <hes> as we head into the new week so how much you're not a weird night as concerned behind you. You need a music interlude for this raw segment. I don't know was like <hes> what sort of unless unless swaggie ability to perform some paying ever seen such beauty luna six seven eight mile chinese okay. I'm ready for the ars right. You wanna slow jam. The -noth- actual yoga it shocked san looks better with the assets. I wonder who's boys is calling out for jackson then to do. The aliens thing cliff has a cute alien thing by me. I choose to cast the alien berbie twenty jackson drinking coffee during the commercial break up. How heavy is this thing on. Tom us head. We're chrissy could've could've been the alien with those funds on her head. I'm jack fucking. Matthews relax has shout hog bother other jackets trying way to hard holy shit this interview with julie. It is loose auditor kayla notes. That's great sleep. Mickey actually looked like really decent with the glasses on when he was being the scientist. I thought that was like a smarter way caitlyn. He wasn't wearing any underwear when that was happening that the tire twenty four hours because they called him into the room when he wasn't wearing underwear and then they put many jacket and the glasses and you couldn't take it off so he wasn't willing to take mhm dory where he wears the odor down their branch line. That's what the alien was now when he was talking about. Do you use the hairbrush or the toothbrush other reach into your regions really at that in some of the stories. I've heard from those guys then you better hope not exactly better hope not really quickly. Just two you quick things about this week. We talked about it before. Jack did try his quote. Unquote blackmail plan with cats to try to get her to flip her votes. If you've been listening to us all week and taryn during the morning updates jack had this great plan he thought to black male cat into flipping her vote based on the fact that she knew that clip is going to get voted out out of the week that clinton nicole around the block but she voted with the minority anyway to get intel for them which he thought would cause just to jessica to have some doubts about cats loyalty cliff knew about her head of time he warned cat and basically she laughs it off. The other thing to keep in mind is talking about on the morning update. I know we're all worried about the christie you see tommy says you know remnants getting together and having power but the real power in the house right now is the jackson holly cats jessica a group <hes> and if tommy does take a shot at cats it doesn't seem like it now but if you're rooting for nicole or cliff <hes> doubt or even jessica that would actually it'd be good to get out of the house to weaken than portion of the house because right now. He may not see it but there they really have a lot of control yup. Now don't get blinded by the comments focus on what's really i'm present. I listen to you. I'm good yeah. I got everything out a brent for jessica though i know we're all impressed with the job she did this. We i don't think <hes> one second of airtime other than when they showed her backyard. Here's the thing look. She got airtime sunday as she got all of wednesday mom's texting me about justice estimates range from so i mean i'm taking we can get plus. We got jack roasted. Did that julia or some really hot close to do it into like she didn't. She has been looking lately. She'll tonight yeah. The dress was looking. It looked tour runway alright now legit last week. She was spiderman guitar in the minutiae with us maggie diesel associate yet yours treating anything okay us code his if you wanna know about socks goes d._m.'s what yeah right his email ah what's the best way to reach swaggie for <hes> the agassi f._x. Page so go and follow okay. I little your fun every fan right so that was a heartache right on all right. Let's say about what's coming up on robin's podcasts and then we'll have to want to all right. Let's talk about what's coming up af episode two hundred special <music> myself. Danny and tyson got together live and talked about everything that's going on. Have you heard about the new thing going on about your number neighbor edberg caitlyn. Have you number neighbor yet. How we did you see the did you see the number neighbor thing with the girl that was answering someone <unk> and was like hi. Is this whatever she was like. No this is patrick. Did you see that this is patrick. J k ama. Oh it's whatever and then who's who does that. You're back like this is dr whatever and it was like for her interview tomorrow like a doctor's office as she was like and then she and and then all of a sudden transition choose yes. This is loren. I promised my funny number number neighbors me love love island winner interviewers interview with the winner of love island. Check that out a are half ups feed. We also will have taryn aaron live in a break from from caitlyn. Hold on hold on breaking news. You paid me five dollars. This one's for manifesting christie. Going rob has august five dollars. I'm going to bank these okay. I'm just doing it. They celebrate celebrate five dollars dollars live during the state in an again so okay all right so h. Tomorrow morning's join taryn live for the update. What's tommy gonna do. During saturday sunday as well on the live feed update. Eh swindler is going to be here in the studio on sunday night. You guys can write a note lee leaving leaving her then mohur. Okay there you go of course all this excitement and craziness made possible by the people that then mo caitlyn infested and also from the patrons of rob as a podcast find out more about everything we're doing behind the scenes at rob has a podcast with our patriot podcast cast feed and much more in the facebook groups are rob has a website dot com slash patron honestly wasn't on on this show like and i was just a fan you would be a patron one thousand person. I literally my friends and i said why. Are you not a patriotair. That's how we do it. That's how we do all these shows. It's your show. Also we have on the e._s._p._n. Of like big brother given your own common and a lot to say. I don't know much about seasons. I'm very quiet but like i have everything say about robinson pocket. Let's give you could go zoom zooming in closer okay all right. Let's go back to normal. I used to spend a lot of time on twitter and like i literally followed like everybody and i know who's like bias who sticks to like gameplay. I watch e._s._p._n. They don't come people's personal lives. A lot of podcasts will no go into our personal life or the house as personal life and jump on events happening in in like dude like the worse. It's like with him like you said it's a journalist. He's really the journal like he doesn't do anything crazy. This whole studios professional is literally e._s._p._n. Of big brother and if you want your voice you have to come by the bar. Wow wow i really only once. I'm quite happy here. Have you know i don't know about the season but i'm i'm happy to be. Rob has a podcast like i. I wish i had done last year when i had a lot to say about this one but i love her now. Though okay okay wow i legitimate happy. We did you ever not love you. Yes you sh- okay. I'm i'm here. You say that 'cause rob rob works. Zaza watched pay attention to everything i know you do. Oh rob is also just like he's the best friends in the world like the fact that okay we can't get into. I get literally cry about it. Don't cry don't cry. Do you have something this is like. When jack gave his speech was saying nice things that everybody else in the house that's feels like even had this to say about sis sys fifty one days gang and how i've learned all the little things about you this when you scare people you almost pay yourself yeah. I said robert seizure if i if i give you one of my shirts yes yes yes yeah. I gotta kaelin. All of the collection okay look at the caitlyn all all right so in other words on talking. We're going to be so lifted tonight in the back of my head stuck. It'd be able to fit through the door fight. Tommy's helmet yes. Can you believe it. This is the worst punishment okay all right so what else we have to do here tonight anything. Do you have a performance. Do i have the performance. Let me sing <hes> bailey swaggie. Where where can we check out everything that you guys doing literally everything on my instagram so i can see t._v. Hers bay day our youtube sway the gang. She has her own youtube. <hes> there's just like we constantly update. Every everybody live like anybody asks the question. We're really flat out honest about everything that goes on so i follow youtube is daily daily but my bridal shower is next week now. We're doing a bridal shower video on the siding. When is the wedding no we we we rented this no issues or anything but it's literally like aggressive plan weddings and aggressive. I'm <music>. I'm like whoa like. I can't invite seventeen hundred people i mean it just likes burgers tony little bit. They'll help you go. We know you have to say. What are you what you're saying. Oh that's what i'm saying we were talking to a few networks about our wedding and there was one recently that we had deals in the work with. We might with a sweeter deal so that that's what i said. We'll give you rather pockets a lot. Okay yeah me too. I'm gonna have a reading. The works works with so networks are coming my way and just like oh. It's really all the men would be like caitlyn when you marry me. You're you're right now. He's dealt with was he like popcorn arnold. Come on one out of twenty. One people commented on your beauty. You know what i think. It is is is i. I really think beautiful that no no. I think it's when people are. I think i'm a different type of girl. I think like i'm an acquired taste and and if you think that i'm like funny and witty and charming like you're all in but then there's other people that are not rather have a girl. That's a little more not as aggressive as you so if you're lanez than you feel me twenty four. I'm a fan of essential. Aw i love ready with me is on i do. I know where she's going. Don't do it in this over all right before i get off the edge actually one more question for them because they're never going to be here. Okay i mean you don't know that i'm not sure why prudential do anything you want to ask them and literally anything. No no no. I don't wanna do that. You you know he's on it could be if you could be stuck in a room in an elevator with one of these three people for three hours who would be now. You said three people taryn brenton melissa people from my season. Oh controversy season. We don't need to make anything controversial. You have swaggie here and swaggie. Has this question it's just who would you be interesting. Okay fire interview chestnuts. Sorry sorry three people okay. I don't wanna go there okay. You have to choose one three hours in an elevator. The following people are the s. Those people are going to be the choices. Oh my god can i go twenty eighteen s. c. j. c. nikki easy easy 'cause like us my boy at one point in time so burn our for three hours or elevated come out as friends would be good. Come out as like our understanding everything we now happen because i literally i amount like last week but like an elevator for three hours and then it's like what were you thinking then. It's like oh trip so it wouldn't. I think that you really don't anyway. I need to go there. We're having a nice time. The we have love in life outside. Honestly this whole podcast thing is just making me becomes. I'm gonna i'm not. He wanted to close us out with a with another song. Please hold on hold on. Check your again and uh-huh oh wait. I got another run now. We showed me. You're paying for dinner. Thanks assist out any paid me who sandy we did. You know that you said detroit again. It's that i got insanity paid me. I'm sorry i need the music. Okay okay all right all right here. We go wasn't josh sammy five dollars. One cents sapping nothing. I may have eleven dollars one sunday. You're <music>. Thank you so much for coming in okay. Yes thank you this. This was this was this incredible. This is gray. I had no idea i saw it on a schedule but i had no idea it was gonna be. You guys who i love really glad that it was a nice good old time. Okay we'll be back for sure. <hes> next time i come back for sure was on thursday. We'll hit and rob right. They might be moving here so okay or not. Okay all right brian fine. Thank you very much scott c._p._r. Behind the scenes they already have a good night. Tonight's big brother recap is sponsored by our friends over at truecar. Every car comes the sheriff stories like that danger bumper. When you never see pick up your first date that luxury package you got through a big promotion or the miles you save by riding your bike all summer long l._a. Camper take on your stories now with truecar you at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell it or trade it in jessica truecard simply enter your license plate number watch cars details just pop hop up and answer a few questions navigation in monroe watches they bump up your car's value high mileage dirty news gonna cost you've been now. You'll know how much it's going to ding your wallet so you can plan ahead and once you're finish you'll get a true cash offer sent in minutes which you take to a local certified dealer to cash or trade in radio experience better way to sell or trade reading your car. Check out truecar today. Cash offer is not available in all areas.
Episode 369: Lori Gottlieb
"Hey Max before we get started but a sponsor making today's show possible made so many shows possible for us over the years it's squarespace turn on your great idea into a reality with squarespace. squarespace makes it easier than ever to launch your passion project where showcasing your work or selling products of any Kinda got beautiful templates and the ability to customize just about anything you can easily make a beautiful website all by yourself if you do get stuck. You won't but but if you do. squarespace has twenty four seven award winning customer support so head to squarespace dot com slash long form for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch us the offer Code long-form perform to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. Thank squarespace for everything. Here's the show. Hello and welcome to the Longhorn. PODCAST I am Evan. Ratliff your co host. I'm here with Max Lansky and Aaron Lamour Long-form Long-form. Hey Hey you guys on the show man this we go quickly. There's a guy who's starting chainsaw right outside my window but it's off right now just say who's on the show okay. Here we go this week. I talked to Lori Gottlieb. She is a journalist and a therapist and She does some fascinating at the intersection of those two Crafts she is a long time for the Atlantic where she writes a column called Dear Therapist before that she was calling from New York magazine. Certain lots of different features and She has a book out called. Maybe you should talk to someone who came out earlier this year and I really wanted to talk to her about it. It's about her patience in her practice and also her own pursuit of therapy. All these these stories are woven together. And it's quite gripping and I I I enjoy talking door. I've versus Mary best as guest first therapist guests. I think so. I can't remember I mean some of the some of the interviews. These are like therapy particularly Max you. Max often plays the person getting therapy and they fired Ken. I feel like really coming on my corner. Are here having a therapist on the show. I mean You know I feel like Max that had done this interview in Gun Freebie here if you want people to listen to your inner thoughts without paying therapist why not start an email newsletter with Malcolm they make it easy you'd even pay until it hits a certain number of people people so it's a good time for forever but now here's a Evan with Lori. Laurie welcome to the PODCAST. Thank you thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here so great to have your. We have more to talk about that. We could possibly fit in. I feel like partly because your latest book would skull Maybe talk to someone but I wanted to feel also had as sort of layered into the book you've also had a truly unique kind of journey into who Being a writer of being a journalist would you do you identify more as a journalist or just as a writer and therapists like do sell describes a journalist. I okay yeah I mean I sort of have a hybrid career so it depends on the moments you know. If I'm on an airplane I will never say that I'm therapist because the person will talk to me about their life the whole time like for free therapy session so I'll always say I'm a writer which is nice and ambiguous if I say journalists sometimes people you know. Have a story to pitch you Experience I really feel like I came from journalism and so even though I write books I think internally identifies a journalist I I think as a therapist. You're almost journalist. I just did a tedtalk. Can I talk about how feel like a used journalism. I use editing. I use all those like interviewing interviewing skills as therapist so I think you know at heart Emma journalist but in a way when I was reading a lot of your columns and also when particularly tickling this book where you go through the process of how you you sort of undertake therapy it seems like you also have special tools that most journalists don't have in terms of love real professional training and experience in terms of listening to people and drawing people out and finding the spaces to talk two people. Does it feel that way to you. If you do something that's purely journalistic de sort of feel like I'm bringing by therapy work to bear on this or you try to to get out of that. I work I don't think it's a therapy framework. I think it just a how to humans connect framework and I think that as a journalist. You have to know how to do do that. One of the things I think young journalists do as they talk a lot and if you just listen. It's in those spaces spaces where people are thinking. So let them think and then they'll say something really interesting and it's not manipulative. It's not like you're tried right to get them to say something that they don't want to say they actually do want to say it. You just need to give them time to process what they WANNA say. So let's the I want. I WANNA start actually back before we get too far into your process and the difference in therapy were not always therapist. You're not always a journalist and writer you had what seems to me to have been at accelerating celebrating trajectory of television career. And so I i WanNa know how you got into television like what took you into television to begin with yeah So I was always interested in story and the human condition and I loved the way this is before. TV was what it is now. So you mean when as a kid I loved TV I loved it I actually love film and TV. And I really felt like like a good novel right that there were all these psychological article insights in story in those ways and so When I was in college I started doing internships in the entertainment business? And were you in college. Now I was I. I was at Yale and then Stanford but in the summers because I grew up in La. I would do these internships ups and then when I started working after college I did film development and then I later moved over to NBC and it was this golden year at NBC where To great shows premiered one was E. R. and one was spread so successful shows ever made I would assume right. It was the the beginning of the reign of must see TV. Thursday night dominance for NBC. And when I was working on E. R. WE WE had a consultant who was an actual er physician and I would hang out in the Er with him a lot. And I loved being there you know I mean I think there was and I think that's where the journalism comes into. It was like we were telling us fictional stories on the are and they were great but to see the real thing and to be there for those real stories that was really what hooked me and then I went to medical school because of that and would so our a pause there because what was it for someone who was interested in TV or grew up maybe thinking about wanting to be on TV. I mean you land at a point where that dream it could not have been coming more true true. I mean we're talking about working on these huge hits shows with people who went on to be the biggest stars of the world. So what was it about that. That was not enough for you. I think it wasn't that it wasn't enough. It was that there was something so much more about the real story nobody comes to an er because they expect something to happen so so you know you go there. Because something wasn't emergency and it was a surprise and so people were at these inflection points in their lives and I felt like being there they are and and having that experience with that person. It wasn't just watching. It was being apart of it. So when you're when you're doing TV you're you're watching it right It goes is out. You're not interacting with with the viewers in the same way but when you're in there on this very intimate level with a person who comes in and they said Oh wow I have this really bad got headache. And oh it's a brain tumor. That's that's like a harrowing moments and you're there with that person and there was something about that that made me want to have that in the every day of my life so you decided to go to medical school I went to medical school I went back to Stanford and when I was there. My professors started talking about what they call. This new fangled thing called managed care and my whole dream about having these being the family doctor who guides people through their lives and being involved in the stories of their lives. It seemed like that was going to be really difficult in the new model. And so that's when I left left to be a journalist and I started writing when I was in when I was in medical school I started writing doing pieces about the experience. I did pieces about the experience of getting ready for medical local school and then I did pieces about the experience of being in medical school and I was telling all these stories and I realized that I liked the story. Part and so That's when I laughed to really be a journalist and I did that just purely as a journalist I had one career for ten years and when you first I started doing those stories those pieces that you were kind of writing for yourself and then you thought Oh maybe I'll get these published or were you pitching them place it. How did you get a foothold in the world of journalism from a perch at medical school? I just cold pitched them you know. Well I I. I wrote for slate when I was applying to medical school. They had this thing called the slate. Diaries hirees you remember those And so I did. The diaries of you know a few days by life as I was taking the cats and as a as a French major I'm trying to get into medical school and then from there. You know I just as a freelancer I just pitch things it. It seems in the current journals journals environment like almost insane that someone would drop out of medical school partway in having already done. How many years did you do two years? Two full years of medical school is a lot of work work especially the is in the first year like insane for my it is Stanford was great because they let you do what's called an early clinicals. The first two years of medical school are generally early. preclinical where you're all in the classroom and very intense and then the second two years are the clinical years were in the hospital during rotations and Stanford let let me shadow doctors and it was really interesting to me and they also let you do this thing. They had this thing called the medical scholars. In the arts and Humanities Tobias Wolff was that Stanford and you could take classes you can take writing classes so I- audited some writing classes when I was there so it sounds really weird that I would be writing and in medical school and then leave him. But I don't think it was. I think when you're still that young you're not thinking like how am I going to make a living necessarily which I should have thought of. It was it was more. I'm following what I want to do. And you sort of over those years worked up to writing big features for magazines and you know I feel like the first one I was looking back the first I wonder I distinctly remember which may was not the first big one was the first one that I remember coming across was the Atlantic story which he then turned into a book. That was sort of like settling for. I came correct. Yeah and I did not pick the subtitle and actually it's not about settling. which has it's sort of this thing where I think people think I think that base you know I? It was funny because the magazine piece. I think there's a kind of humor. That's my natural sense of humor. That works really well in my pieces. This is but when I was trying to write sort of satire in the Mary him pieces who it just fell flat. People took it completely straight and they all said. Oh Oh my God you want me to marry the Guy With Hal. Toasts and I'm like no. That was a joke and so I realized I can't write that kind of thing. You know like that. Just I'm bad. Add it and I thought it was a great piece by the way. That's what's so ironic. I thought it was a great piece. I oh this is great like people will get the humor in and they'll get the serious point that I'm trying to make to was there. There was a there was a point to it which was not to settle but it was to say you know. Are we really trying to kind of pick partners. Who Don't exist You know have we gotten to that place in our culture and is that part of the reason that so many of us are finding ourselves having so much trouble you know in our late thirties and we're still single single but it wasn't and you should settle So it was trying to get people to examine something that was going on in the culture but I did it in a way that people didn't understand understand and then in the book I think I did it in a way that people really can't understand because people who read the Book Really Love The book for the most part. I mean you know. Most of the mail that I get for the book is really really positive from people who have read it and they find it really useful. The problem is that the unfortunate title from the magazine piece followed the book. Even though we tried to get that not to happen there was a huge fight with the publisher. I said I cannot have the word subtle on this book. It is not about settling and they said well. We're not going to publish publishing. At that point. It was too late to romy to find another publisher. I had no choice. I mean my I did have a choice. Matures was don't publish the book and try to resell it later. When it would be really difficult and then I had no guarantee that it would get published and I really felt strongly that the book would do a service to people if they could get past the title Edel would see it? Sounds like you feel like they did in the beginning they didn't. I mean people were so angry with me. People wrote to me things like I hope you get cancer. I mean Peo. WHO's these vitriolic emails? This was one thing I was going to ask you though because it feels like I. Kinda vaguely remembered that being controversial story but it feels like it landed right before kind of social media really took off like three today. What would happen if he does that story? Today it would be insane. I think I don't know what do you think. Yeah well I mean it went viral in the way things could go viral pre the way the Internet is now pre social media so ah in mainstream media it went viral. And you know I think I tried to explain in mainstream media what I was talking about but people weren't willing to listen because they were so oh and I understand why I mean nobody wants to settle and that was my message and that is not my message and in writing the book. Did you feel like thank. You are trying to undo part of the magazine story in doing the book or I felt like I had a really important message. I still feel like I do. I think so. Many people do benefit from that book but they have to read it and the book. It's funny because the book is in my opinion. It's actually as it's a piece of journalism. It's a very deeply researched book about what makes for happy lasting relationships in marriages. And so you know people said Oh. You're saying everyone should get married married and it's kind of like saying you know if you wrote a book about tennis using. Everybody should play tennis. No I'm not. I'm saying if you are interested in tennis. This might help you improve your game. If you are interested in finding being a lifelong partner this will help you. But I'm not saying you have to have a lifelong partner. Don't read this book if you're not interested in having a lifelong partner they were attacking may for saying. Here's how you see here's a how to a journalistic how to here's what all the research says about having a happy lasting marriage and then later you know as he's on Saris book came out. All these other books came out that were so well received that have the same research that I have in my book that people never never read because of the title. That sounds very frustrating. And they loved his look and it's literally the same. People are interviewed the same studies or cited and and it just presented in a different package. His was called modern love which is much better title. That was fine with. Maybe you should talk to someone. One big stipulation when we were deciding on a publisher was I said you know I have to be able to choose the title in its maximum. Put Lori and Edna on hold for just a second. We got some sponsors this week. Not makes this show possible makes it possible for us to make the show so for you to listen to so now. I'd like you to listen to a little bit about them. One sponsor native native creates safe simple effective products. That people will use every day. The products are filled with trust ingredients and their natural deodorant. 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Better feel feel better thank you native for sponsoring the show and thanks also to squarespace you know. I use squarespace for The website of my PODCAST ask companies called Pineapple Street and We use squarespace and we recently had to make a whole bunch of changes to the website and it was so easy. Everything look good good in worked and I was like we did like a matter of minutes. Of course I would be building my website with squarespace. squarespace has been sponsoring during the show for years and we thank them for that but also it really is the best and easiest way to do it. Whether you're looking start a new business showcase your work published content sell products. squarespace is the tool for. You Got Beautiful. Templates created by world class designers. And the ability to customize just about anything with just a few clicks sue can easily really make a beautiful website all by yourself. I actually made the website Years ago we started the company. I don't know anything about this and I was able to do it and actually looked like totally competent. That is really what squarespace will do. If you don't know a lick of code you can still make a beautiful website. It's optimized for Mobile. There's nothing to patch nothing the upgrade. They've got incredible twenty four seven award. Winning Customer Service squarespace empowers millions of people from designers to lawyers artists to gamers even restaurants in gyms to turn great ideas into something real. Now it's your turn head to squarespace dot com slash long-form for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch. He's he's the offer Code Long-form to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain that squarespace dot com slash long-form offer code long-form. Thanks so much squarespace squarespace response during the show. Let's get back to Laurie. And so then you had. You had another story that went crazy viral Atlantic story about parenting about kids and your kids ending up in therapy and it covered sort of like modern parenting and how it sounded lake. You had an opportunity to just capitalize on that virology. Ready write a book. Gone the talk show circuit and be a parenting expert. Why did you say no to that? Yes so that peace was called how to land your kidding therapy. Why our obsession with our kids? Happiness might be dooming them too unhappy adulthood. It's I think a lot of the pieces that I right. I really feel like I want to do a service with them and and you have to realize this was all coming in a time. When all of a sudden I was going to with Mary him I was thinking about becoming a therapist? And with how to land your kid I already was in that process and so it was really important for me. I think to take something in the culture and say here's what's going on and here's a different way of looking at it. That might help you. And so I I think that's why they go viral and so with Hendrick hit it was the age of social media and it did go viral And of course publishers. Then wanted me to write that book and they wanted me to write it for and I can say this only because I turned it down for an obscene amount of money and people thought I was insane for turning down an obscene amount of money on a topic that I had already written the magazine piece so it would be pretty easy to write the book but I felt like that would be cheesy. You know like I don't think the subject matters cheesy. I feel like I'm really really proud of the peace but I feel like to kind of jump on the bandwagon of hyper parenting or whatever. You WANNA call it over parenting helicopter parenting when there had already been so many really good books about it. I didn't feel like we needed another about a year later. The New Yorker did this piece and they said another book about over. Parenting would just be cruel. which I was exactly my sentiment at the time and so I felt like it would be just crass commercial cross commercial book that I didn't really have my heart in? I didn't feel like I could do that. I felt like it would be so authentic. And when you when as you're going through that process of becoming a therapist you you're sort of oriented toward authenticity to the core and he felt like it would just go against every value that I had to write that book so I said no and I said I'm really interested in what's going on with the adults. You no the subtitle of the other piece was why obsession with our kids. Happiness might be doing them too unhappy adulthood and they said I want to write about. Why our obsession with our own happiness might be doing us to unhappiness happiness so I had to deal for that book not by the way for an obscene amount of money that we're really not interested in kind of like they're kind of like here for this like minimal sum of money money like the most minimal? Some you can get a book. Yeah we'll let you write it and I thought well at least I'm writing what I WANNA right. So van was working in my therapy practice and so I started writing that book and I just couldn't get anywhere with it because as I was doing more with my private practice who now. I was getting past my internship. I when I was in my own practice I felt like it just couldn't like the study. The way that I would write that book it couldn't reflect the nuance and the richness of what was going on in the therapy room and so every time I tried to sort of capture that I couldn't really do that in the context of the book that the publisher wanted me to write and so I started started calling the book the miserable depression inducing happiness book because I was literally getting depressed as I was trying to write it and could not write anything it was like I would look look at the page and I would go on facebook and everybody would ask. How's the book? How's the book and I had so much? Shame around the fact that I had turned down this lucrative parenting book that would have been you know an easy easy book to write and probably a bestseller and I thought God I was such a Moron for turning that down and now I can't write this book and so whenever if people said how's the happiness book going I'd be like yeah it's going it's going. I had not written no word eventually. I told my publisher that I was GonNa the Council Book. I didn't want to do the buck. And this was after by the way like two years of not writing the book and just wallowing in anxiety and shame And that was partly because my agent at the time and I say at the time was kept telling me if you don't write this book you won't read another. Just write eight this book and then write the book. You want to write horrible advice. How to and really saying the quiet part loud? They're usually they the kinda skirt around they don't they don't explicitly tell you if you don't if this one's not a winner you'll never work again. That's what the writers usually saying that solves. Well she said I will have egg on my face because you didn't write the other book now. You're not in writing this book and it didn't occur to me that wait a minute I'm the client it didn't occur to me. I thought. Oh I'm never gonNA ride again and I love to write and I thought but this is going to be really bad so I better listen to the professionals and finally Through therapy as you see. There's sort of this Meta aspect to maybe talk to someone. When we're I write in? Maybe she talked to someone about the fact that I was going through this kind of crisis of of meaning in my life at that time and part of it was as I don't want to spend time on something that doesn't feel meaningful to me or to other people and then at the same time there's the reality of you're a single parent and you need to pay the bills and you're just starting out in your private practice and you have this unpaid internship and graduate school loans. You need to repay If I canceled this book I'm going to have to return the money money that I spent supporting us during my internship. We then did do I had yes so I had to return the money. Yes so we kinda Passover quickly you. You decided to become a therapist. So what was the prompt that led you to go back to school. You were having a flourishing careers journalist at this point. You're writing stories. Yeah so so we did skip over that yes so I was really enjoying being a journalist and I still amateur analyst. I just do it less often now and I have the weekly Der Therapist Therapist column in the Atlantic. So I do that but when I was working as a journalist I was working all the time. It's very solitary. Kind of work You're interviewing people. You're doing that but a lot lot of it is with a laptop in front of you or on the phone. And so I had a baby and for any parents they might relate to this When you have a baby at least my experience of having a baby was I really needed to talk to human adults during the day? I really needed that for my sanity and as a a journalist. You don't get to do that as much and so the ups guy would come with the tons of deliveries that you have when you have a newborn and I would detain him and I would be. We like hey how about those diapers and do you have kids. And he would avoid like the plague he would like to back away was big brown truck and it got to the point where he would tiptoe up to my door and quietly placed the package on my doorstep so that I would not open the door and tried to engage him in conversation and I thought wow I gotta do something about this so I just say. I deeply identified with this portion of the book. That's my actually my current daily experiences like I'm Morley Cafe Guy like if I'm talking to the Barista Yeah we have other customers and like no I the only people I talked to all day or on the phone or like a one four year old when they come home that was exactly my experience experience. Yeah and so I called up the dean at Stanford Medical School and She was sort of like this very accomplished researcher and physician who was also like camp. Mom She was just like the medical students loved her and so I called her up and I said maybe I should come back and do psychiatry and she said you know you're welcome to come back. You'd be coming back with a toddler you know in residency and and you would be doing something where you're probably going to be prescribing. Selecta in fifteen minute intervals. All Day Long. You'll be doing mostly medication management. You can talk therapy but you know. Why do you WanNa go through all this when you could get a graduate degree in clinical psychology and talk therapy? Which is what you WANNA do? And it was the best advice is that she could possibly have given me and it was in that moment sort of everything that I had done all coalesced into one thing where it was like yes story. The human condition Russian as a journalist I was helping people to tell their stories as a therapist. I can help people to edit their stories to change their stories and I can be immersed in the human condition in both of these things so it wasn't that I wanted to not be a journalist. It was that I wanted to add this therapy career to what I was already doing. But it's a significant get undertaking to How old were you when you when you decided to go back? I was in my late thirties late thirties with a baby. The Baby Brit turning to school on on loans. That feels like overwhelming thing to kind of tackle. You know it's kind of like when you asked me wasn't crazy to leave medical school to become a journalist you know there were practical considerations. Of course I mean that's why I was so stressed out about returning the money for the buck and it was wasn't even that much money again. They gave me like no money for that book but to me it was a significant different amount of money to have to get back but it was more that I was so sure that I was doing something that would be viable later. And I was so sure that as I was going through this part of me about you know what I wanNA do at Midlife. I knew that I had to do something that I cared about. And so I always followed what I cared about about. Sometimes it worked out sometimes. It didn't work out but I think everything that I did on route to getting where I am. Now you know led to all of the things that I care deeply about so when you you write in the book about sort of like starting out your practice and how this surprised me this statistic that way less people rollers significant. Less people are seeking therapy than did at a certain point in the past my remembering that correctly that there was some discussion among your classmates that it was difficult. Got To get practice off the ground because there were sort of less people looking for therapy than they used to be an you needed to kind of market yourself. Yes so yeah I wrote this piece It was a the cover story of the New York Times magazine. And it was about how we have to brand ourselves as therapist. And how that's anathema to I think ornamentation as therapists. We don't think of ourselves as marketing. People we think of ourselves as you know having these very intimate conversations in these quiet rooms with people and a lot of people I think wanted the quick fix they wanted. You know I can take a pill lead rather do that if I can go to a life coach. I'd rather do that if you can. Give me me three tips for how to change my life. I'd rather do that and so I think that it's hard for a lot of their starting out. It was hard for me starting out to find people who wanted to do what we were. Who wanted to engage in what we were offering? How did you get over that? Well you know as I wrote in the piece it was you know. I think I was very conflicted. In the way that most pressure conflicted it was like I had a writing website but I didn't have a therapy website because they were different identities to me and so the idea of putting up a website and advertising myself as a therapist folk creepy I just it was just like as a writer it was so oh natural and then having a therapy website felt like crossing some kind of line and so I had separate websites. I had the therapy website which I thought was very professional and kind of low key and the writing website where you put like. Yeah it was on the today show totally different things and then it wasn't until later when I realized that they're sort of the same thing like I. I can't really split my identities that I am a writer who is a therapist. I am a therapist who is a writer. And so that's it's now I have one until I had. Maybe she talked to someone. I never had one website always kept those identities completely separately but now when you think about this book it's so so much about me as a writer and me as a therapist that you can't really separate them and I think that the cohesiveness of them is really important because because I'm not these two different people if you come to me for therapy you know that I'm a writer if you want to assign something to me as a writer you know. I'm a therapist and you even write right about your therapist. The therapist that you go to in the book and Google stocking this therapist and finding out about his past and digging up little tidbits of a really good journalistic practice journalistic research. You kinda like find these things about his google stock my therapist that is true but it occurred to me see that even before the websites came together and everything that you were a a google person for your early patients I mean you had written a bunch of stories but you'd also written a book talk about your childhood like you had written things that your clients could find. Did you find people bringing up with you. You know you're writing or coming to you because of your writing earlier in your practice. What was interesting was when I wrote in the beginning when I was a journalist for all those years and when I wrote other books I never you you know in nevermind wildest dreams that I think about being therapist and so if I had known that I was later going to become a therapist I wouldn't want all that information out? There were kind of thing. Do you think you would have helped. There's nothing that that I feel protective of necessarily it's more that I think it's just a lot of information about me me. That patients don't need to know when I wrote. Maybe talk to someone. I was reading about a specific time in my life and I felt okay with that kind one of disclosure and also I should say about maybe talk to someone because when I canceled the happiness book. I didn't think I was GONNA write another book and then when I decided to write this book and no one thought anybody would read this book. I thought like maybe three people would read this book but it was the book I felt like I had to write and so I kind of let it rip in terms of my personal life. I don't mean that I wasn't aware that you know I was putting this out publicly but that I think I might have cleaned myself up a little bit if I knew how many people were actually going to read the book and and I think the fact that I didn't clean myself up is why so many people are reading the book so that icon to me that you have to hold. Which is people want you to be a real human and at the same time you also have to have boundaries? Well one of the things. That shouldn't have surprised me but it did was that I feel like I've been to therapy and I feel like people who especially have been to therapy but any thinking person will at some point realized that they get stuck in patterns of thinking or that they are sort of follow these tracks in their life and they're they can't get off of them in different ways and they and then when they go to therapy they kind of expect certain things from a therapist that a therapist not there provide like advice on everything but what was surprising to me was that you are therapist and then you found yourself going into therapy but also doing those things like you. I guess it makes sense but I would think that you with your training would kind of just be constantly applying all those host than giving your self therapy in some sense of that make sense like that was one of the things in the book that kind of stood out to me was how when you are with your therapist. You're just a patient. Yeah when you're uh-huh training to be a therapist you need to do five hundred hours of therapy for licensure and you very much like the patient then because you know what a you know. Oh you're an intern. And then once you have been in private practice for awhile and you've seen a lot of people and you go back to therapy. It's very hard to take off your therapist hat. What and at the same time? You're still a person in the room and so very quickly the artifice of Oh I know I. He's asking that and I'm going to answer it this way because I want to come up well well Goes away because you can't really hide in that way and it's not gonNA help you so but I do you know I feel the way that I think my patients I feel with me like when i Google stopped him and I found out that his father had died at a relatively young age of a heart attack and his father had been like a marathon runner. And and I had been waxing poetic therapy sessions about my close relationship with my aging father and I was so glad we had this time to say goodbye and all of that and I felt well like I can't talk about that anymore. It's going to cause him pain knowing that he didn't have that time with his father and then I was worried I would slip up and you know. Finally I confess thus to him but my patient slip up with me all the time that they've googled me you know they'll say like you know what it's like to have a thirteen year old boy or whatever it is. I never said that. So you know what it's like. Oh well you grew up in La. You know. That's like I never told you where I grew up So I know that. They've googled me so I have so many questions about the part of the book is why we haven't really even talked about. The book is not just about you. And your therapist. It is actually the large part of it is portraits of your patients over time and and it's actually it's very suspenseful. I found the book very suspenseful. I couldn't put it down. I want to know what happened to these people. It has a very a certain momentum to knowing their stories stories so I had a lot of logistical questions like journalism crossing with therapy one which was very basic like. Do you tape record your sessions sessions. I don't so it's different from journalism in that it's recalled conversation. I know I have chart notes but I'm not Doing chart notes the way you do journalism right. So the chart notes are and by the way when I was doing chart notes for these patients. You know it wasn't that I ever thought I was going to write a book about them. That was one of my questions to right. Did you sort of so. I should say that the people that I chose where people that I was no longer seeing on a weekly basis. Because they didn't feel that I can go into therapy sessions with them. Even if I was writing about something that happened five years earlier I just felt it would be too blurry. I couldn't think I'm writing this chapter now about this person. Even we're talking about something completely different and this happened a long time ago. It would get very blurry so there was no way I could do that. So that was one thing that I think helped in terms of it. Just you know how you do dialogue you do it from what you remember and you do it from what you have in your notes but there is when you live and breathe a person every every week for years you hear them the way like when you're writing a television show right you hear the person you know the way they speak. You've heard them so many times so it's almost like writing memoir like even those parts closer to reading more than yeah. I didn't tape record my own sessions with my own therapist right but I'm quoting him and I'm quoting me so you answered one one of my questions. which was were you thinking about writing the book when you were talking to the people but how did you choose these particular patients when you did arrive at the point where you said okay? I'm in a book about this. What was your sort of methodology? How many did you choose from? I wanted to choose people who looked very different on the surface in terms of age gender personality history. The problem. They're coming in with the way. The therapy unfolded because old. And I'm the fifth patient right so there are four main patients and then I'm the patient and I look very different. We all look very different from each other and I think that what I was trying to show is something that I she is a therapist. which is that? We're all the same than we are different so underneath whatever presentation we have. We're all so incredibly similar and so often we feel alone. We feel like I'm the only one who thinks this feels this experiences this and yet it's so universal so I really wanted to show that by having people look very different and then seeing seeing that Oh my God they're just like me In a lot of ways there's a piece of me that is like this percents so that that was part of the process and the other part of the process was they only wanted to use people. Well who for whom. I felt the telling their story would benefit them so there was some stories. I thought were great stories. But he didn't tell them because I felt like they would not be well received in book form by those people by the patients themselves. Yes and but the patients who did choose you. I think I read into the introduction or the professor whatnot that you went to them. Ask their permission. If you could use their stories we'll so I have so because I was a journalist list before I was a therapist and I I wrote often about anything and everything I had in my informed consent. Still do that. I can write about anything that they bring up. As long as I disguised their identities and there have been a handful of people who have said No. Thank you Therapy they've just walked. They know they just didn't they know before they come in. I don't waste their time. I mean this is something that they they're aware of before they even meet me and you know but interestingly late I thought more people would be uncomfortable with that but they're not is kind of like here we have a microphone in front of us and you kind of forget that the microphone is there. I think it. I don't know if you saw that recent show so Couples therapy on Showtime No. I've seen it. I watched and treatment when it was on. Okay so couples therapy is is a docu series. So it's it's real people doing couples therapy And you know I don't know if they kind of forget the cameras are there but I think for the people who are coming to therapy. They've seen my journalism before. So are they knew that I was responsible about how I protect people's identities but I think it's a whole different ball game when you're writing a book and following the trajectory of their stories in such detail detail so I had to be rigorous in especially in this age of the Internet in disguising their identities. Have to say when I was just poking around various looking for old articles of yours. And this and that one of the things there's character named John who is incredibly compelling story story. What happens which I won't give away but one of the first things when you Google Lori Gottlieb it's like Lori Gottlieb? Who is John Kidding? which yeah I feel like evidence? Evidence is what you're talking about. Which is the book and they're probably like? Oh I wonder if I can figure out who this guy really is. Yeah and you won't be able to because so just as an example with if somebody. WHO's not a patient in the book? When I do Google stock my therapist I find out that I see this? YELP review for him and he gets one yelp review and it's a five star Rave from this woman who had given even like one-star reviews and she has thousands of reviews up there and she is so disappointed in everyone and everything and she so critical and they're like all caps exclamation marks works. Everybody is a disappointment to her. And then one of the things she writes about is she's on vacation. She's on the beach and this thing cut her foot and and you know. The hotel is horrible for allowing this thing to be on the beach and the thing was so funny and I could not include it. I had to say it was a rock because because if I had put what it was you could google the item and that and then you'd figure out who she was and then you'd figure out who my therapist was and then in the book you see that one of my patients patients spouses ends up going to my therapist. unbeknownst me at first and then you could figure out who that person is and maybe you could figure out who my patient was so in this age of Google. We had to be so careful. So what's been changed or all those details where you can put in a search term But what has not been changed is the Ark of the stories and and have you been in communication with the people who were in the book. Yes and what has been their reaction to l.. I think they're all very pleased. And I think it's been interesting because it's one thing to experience something and it's another thing to read about the experience of it and I think just like it was very therapeutic for me to write about something that happened and then see new things that I haven't seen then I think they also saw new things or they saw things that they already knew but they saw them in a in a fresh way way and I think it was really interesting for them to see more about my experience of being in the room with them. So you you one of your patients. I don't think there's too much spoiler. But we can edit it out of so but one of your patients dies. I mean you're right about that you've written about in time as well and that whole all experienced made me think there's a lot of talk among journalists who cover certain topics and whether it's school shootings or war. Whatever about their own mental health and you kind of talk about how being therapist is partly? You're taking on people's pain like people generally come in they don't come in with just All good news like they come to a therapist because they need something in there in a place of often pain. Well how do you deal with taking that on like what does that it do to your mental health agus. I don't think that I take on their pain. I think that what I do is I hold the hope for them that they can't see while they're in pain gene so they're in this place of extreme pain usually when they come in and sometimes they can't see something thing better for themselves. They don't know what it looks like yet. All they want is you know helped me not feel helped me not to feel this pain and what they don't realize is that you know you can't numb out one feeling. You can't numb out the pain because then you'll know mount joy right so it's like we need to feel our feelings and and sometimes it's overwhelming for them to feel they're feeling so what I'm holding for them as the part that they can't see right now which is the hope and you know. Is it hard. Sometimes when like you're talking about Julie in the book who is this young woman who comes back from our honeymoon and discover she has cancer and then ultimately she has terminal cancer. You know and I go through this process. Assist with her as she's dying we have consultation groups where we talk about our cases every week. But you also go to your own therapy like you see me do. And that's that's where you talk about what it's like to sit with this woman that you've come to care so much about and she's dying and the other part of sort of therapy like I feel like as a therapist as I understand it and reading the book. It's not as an advice giving role necessarily but you've written all these columns One of which is was like What is your therapist relief thinking like you recalls for New York magazine and I have a weekly your therapist advice column in the Atlantic runs every now yes so with those are more? I mean you're approaching therapists. But they're closer to an advice column then right you know they're different processes. But I would still say that my advice column is kind Kanawha Advice Advice column which doesn't sound very helpful. But I hope that it is. It's that you know this is what my tedtalk is about. Actually read a deer therapist letter in my my Ted talk and I talk about how we're all unreliable narrators and even when people come to therapy. They're unreliable narrators in the therapy room. I get to ask follow up questions. I get to know them over time. I get to help see you know sort of like what are the pieces of their story that you know what are are they minimizing what are they emphasizing. What are they leaving in leaving out? Who are the supporting characters? Are they distraction. You know like I get to do all that editing in the room with them when I get a ladder I just got a letter. I can't do any follow up. I can't explored it all with the person And so what I do in the column is I. Try to help them to see their story from a wider perspective. And once you've done therapy long enough you can imagine what that wider perspective might look like and so I take the information from their letter but then I say here's what you've given me but here's all the stuff that you're not looking at and that's what it's almost like a free therapy consult. It's like if you you came for a first session and I could condense it. You know I could take all the stuff that I'm going to do later and put it into one session. Here's all the stuff that I would get you thinking about and then you get to make the decision about what you you WANNA do. I'll give I'll point you in the right direction but then ultimately it's up to you and I think that really helps people a lot more than say this your mother-in-law because sometimes that backfires and what's Nice about the therapist calm is that people will write to me later and say I tried this and here's what happens Hussein. People or different people not know the person they're the letter writer the letter writer. Yeah sometimes as I talk about in in the Ted talk that I'll get letters from two different people involved in the same situation. unbeknownst the other person send and I get these vastly different versions of the same dilemma. And so that's why I'm not like say this or do this because I know that their story is kind of you know. It's skewed Goud from their perspective so I wanna give them a broader view. So they can make a better decision about what to do next and do you feel like so returning to the League. Therapist need to brand Dan themselves. It occurs to me that I know and you wrote the book felt like only three or four people would read it but many many people are reading it so in a sense like this is your branding ending like like now. This book is out there and I'm curious like what are the impacts on your practice like people show a book in hand. Well I thought thet because people would know so much about me that that would make them feel like. I don't want to go to that person for therapy because I have too much information. So the big surprise prized to me was that I get you know people wanting to come to me for therapy all the time as a result of the book might my practice was full before the book came out and it still is full so it hasn't impacted my practice in that way but just in terms of you know I got like twenty to twenty five people a day asking to come to therapy with me which I had not expected at all and so That's been really interesting that despite the fact that I disclose so much you you know people still WanNa come see me. So did this book in contrast to the happiness book did it come easily right. I mean this was the book that I I felt like I had to write when I cancelled the happiness book by the way I really thought I would never write another book. I did not have the differ. This book I never never conceived of another book This came to me later where I was writing one night. Just about everything that was going on with my own therapy and then some of my patients and it was just for me me and I thought Oh. I don't know why I didn't see this before but this is the book that I wanted to write. When I couldn't write the happiness book I wanted to? I feel like it's such a privilege to do what I do you every day in. What I get to see is something that I think everybody should get to see And so I wanted to just bring people into the therapy room and while La you you know. Why didn't I just do that? It seems so obvious. In retrospect like that was the book that I should have been writing but I never did and some of the stories are I found them to be very emotional. A real kind of Gut Punch at certain points at sort of ask version of this already. But did you kind one of re-experience them as you were writing them. Yeah absolutely I think if anything you know it was really hard after you know. There's one chapter in the book which which I won't spoil it but I think is one of the most. I think just harrowing chapters and I I remember being in the room so vividly when that happened and kind of it was almost like I was reliving it when I was writing it and I think also also Julia since you've already talked about the fact that she does die in the end that you know just the going to her funeral in the saying goodbye. It was so difficult and I think to write about that and experience that again where I could really just cry. I cried a lot when I was writing the book. I also laughed a lot when I was reading the book. Because there's a lot of humor in the book but also it's not humor that I kind of put in there to be funny. It's like that's how I felt when I was writing it because there's a lot of humor in therapy real. Humans are ridiculous we are and so you know when you see Oliver Blind spots in the ways that we resist. What's really good for us? And how will make choices voices that guarantee our own unhappiness over and over and over it's funny because ultimately we do get past that hopefully well. Yeah I mean I mean with the people in the book you do but people say are those anomalies like do. Most people make the progress that these people made and I think they do. And there's a case that I write about in the book of someone who doesn't there is the the back story in the book where this person comes in every week and tells me in all different kinds of ways incompetent I am and how I'm not helping her and yet won't leave And so you know and the struggle that I have with her and how ultimately I have to end treatment with her. Because I don't feel like I'm helping her and I feel like I'm wasting wasting her time. And that was difficult to because you feel like a failure you feel like if I could just have figured it out in time if I could just figured out how to get in there I was a Competitive Chess player when I was younger and just really random but But I I feel like I use that a lot in the therapy room too. which is you know you float? It's something out there and you're thinking you know five six seven moves ahead. What am I gonNa do if they make this move? What's my move if they make this other move what's my move and with back I just Every move I made the wrong move just Like she was winning the chess game or it was like a stalemate it was like I was getting nowhere. I she would just foil me. She wasn't winning. She was just preventing me from making any progress. Is your son old enough now to be aware of your writing he is. He's not super interested in it He's a thirteen year. All boys really into basketball. He's actually really good writer himself. He vetted chapters that he's in ruin the book. Yes there are two chapters that kind of feature him and he gave me notes and I took his notes but he has not read the book Not because I haven't offered it to him Just because he hasn't had an interest he's read other of my books but you know as the child of a therapist I think he's surrounded by so much therapy and his world that he's like. Oh It's a book about therapy no thank you. Do you think you bill going forward. Always have this dual writer therapists. Is there another twists that you see in terms of maybe I don't know going back could fully one direction or another or the reason. I couldn't write the parenting blog and the reason I couldn't write the happiness book was because the didn't I didn't feel like they had the meaning that the personal meaning for me that I wanted to kind of put out there in the world and so I feel like everything that I do whether it's the Therapy or whether it's writing a book or whether it's journalism writing the column I'm actually doing a A podcast in the new year. Let me talk about what. What is your So Katie couric's producing it for IHEART and Guy Winch who you might have heard his very popular Ted talks he is going to be the advice calmness for Ted and I'm the advice columnist for the Atlantic and we are going to be to therapists. Who Happen to be advice columnists and we're doing a podcast to review the two of us through advice for people people or just talking to each other where we're working on the format right now But we're GONNA play with that sort of question of you know unreliable narrator and what happens when you have two different therapists looking at a problem from different perspectives. And so and then you know. We're working on the TV series of the book for her. Which Evil Company is producing and The creators of the Americans the show the Americans they're creating this may be talk to someone series scripted like fictional fictional. Now that's not we're not grabbing patients the room and putting them on TV the way that. I did for Vogue But I feel like they're not discreet careers. I feel like they're all again what I said earlier story and the human condition and one of the things things that has been so gratifying about putting this book out and I think really bringing therapy to people in a different way than I have before is that I'm opening up these conversations around around emotional health and kind of normalizing what we go through as people and the more that we can do that whether it's through books whether it's through a podcast cast whether it's through TV. Of course seeing people you know one on one in my practice I just want people to pay attention to their emotional worlds. It's important and I want them to relate better to themselves into other people and I think given what's going on in the world today it's more important than ever and does it ever get to be just too much like you said you don't necessarily take on other people's pain but do you ever just say I just want to shut all this out and I don't want to hear about other people's experiences a legacy. That only happens really on airplanes When I'm in the work there's never a time when I feel like AAC I don't want to hear about this It's a really really interesting process that sitting in the room for fifty minutes straight with no interruptions. We don't get that a lot in the world today. Yeah I mean I've I do a lot with interviews and it's it feels like similar but different you know it's the goals are maybe are different clearly and it seems almost contrived. The interview is to try to get them to give you the information that you want as the interviewer. It's the opposite of the therapy experiences as you're trying to get them somewhere that's good for them like it makes the interview feel exploited if when you light him up right next to each other. Yeah not I mean. There are some overlaps laps. I think that the conversation is different in the therapy room. Not because I'm not trying to get them to say something because I am I am. I am very manipulative right. I mean we are because we want to get them somewhere so I am so it is. That's the chest part of it. That's strategy there's so much strategy that goes into it but I do think that there is something very unique nick about those conversations in the therapy room because people are so vulnerable and open and I feel like there's something really you know I can't really describe what goes on but when somebody is really opening up to you and saying here's who I am here is the truth of who I am unvarnished. It's not instagram. It's not how I talked to. My partner is not how talk to my best friend. It's something completely different and you're having those experiences and you help them to gain something from on that interaction. I don't think there are other conversations that are exactly like that and do you returning to the the idea that you you had. This is kind of career where you wound around and try different things and then ended up here. Do you feel like you wish you had trained as a therapist's coming right out of school and pursued that or that. Those experiences fed into this. I would have been a terrible therapist if I had done that. Coming right out of school kind of in the way that there were lots of people who were like me and they had other careers and then they came into therapeutic training and it was a much less steep learning curve in terms of how to be in the room and how to really connect with people. So I think if I had done it earlier I wish I didn't have part of it was I didn't know how to be with people in the same way but part part of it was a hint lived life and I think that you know once you've lived life. You're different in the room. I know that for when I was training at the clinic and a lot of the interns were in their early twenties. A lot of people who were middle aged or older you know it was hard for them to talk to people in their twenties because they felt like these people in their twenties hadn't lived life yet. uh-huh wasn't that they weren't skilled. It wasn't that they weren't bright. It was that they just didn't have the life experience and they think that now you know I've lived a lot of life I haven't lived as much much life as I as I hope to live. But you know even intriguing Rita the the person who's about to turn seventy in the book I felt like hadn't lived enough life to really help her. Her and I had to learn a lot about what her experience was. What is it like to be that age and to have all these things that you can't change because I feel like I still have a lot that I I can do between now? And then and and she couldn't so I think the more you live life the better you are as a therapist and what's great about being a therapist is most people. Don't retire because as long as you have all your marbles It doesn't take a lot of physical exertion and so a lot of people will do this into their eighties and nineties. Because they like it they want to. It feeds them. Do you think you'll you'll write about it again in this way right about your patients read. What the experience in this way again? You know. I wasn't thinking about doing that but one one of the things that happened in writing this book was there was a couple that was going to be another case that I followed throughout the book and I had to not do them and my editor kept saying we'll just turn turn it in and we'll see if we can cut it and I wrote like you know one chapter about it and I realize this book is four hundred pages. There's no it was six hundred when I turned in and I'm like I'm not doing the couple. Aw this I'm not going to do that. And she kept joking. You'll do it in another book and I was like No. I'm not GONNA do another another book and then realized if I'm GONNA do couples it needs its own book you know. It can't just be a couple inserted into these stories of these individual people because you grow so much as an individual in the context of being in a couple and so- couples are fascinating about sixty percent of my practice is couples at this point. And so I'm thinking that if I do write another burke it'll be something like Maybe we should talk to someone. I don't know if that would be the title but But it would be a book Similar to this but about the experience of what couples. Apple's go through. Well I look forward to that if you choose to do it and the TV show and the podcast and the columns and the Mill Marietta the things going on at at the same time. Thank you so much for going on show. Thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation thanks. That's it for this week's Long-form podcasts. I'm your co host. Evan ratliff Jeff. Many thanks to Gottlieb for stopping in the studio when she was in town from Los Angeles. Hope you enjoyed that. Thanks to my co hosts Aaron Lamour and Max Linski thanks for editor as always John Piper and our intern Maria Clementi and our sponsors mail. Chimp hit writers will see next week.