1 Episode results for "Elizabeth Porter"
056 Mary Todd Lincoln Seances
"Welcome to ghostly are seances real. Ghostly is a podcast that comes out every other week in each episode. We take a ghost story or paranormal event. And look into its complete history. Rebecca then gives us evidence proving that the story is real and my job is to debate those pieces of evidence. Anki you the listener prepared to vote on if it's real or not if you haven't yet please hit that subscribe button and as always we are your host. I'm pat am rebecca. What's been going on. Rebecca well We had our very first ghostly. Book club dude. We did right before halloween. And we talked about beyond black a novel Which talked a lot about mediums and seances and We had a great time discussing the. Yeah like we don't. We didn't play man we were. We were really getting into the book. So it a lot of fun and I have not picked the book for yet for the next one But it will be in. Gene ury believe january. Yeah we will some as my as my plan I think. I think three months is a good timeframe but i'll I'll certainly have the book selected soon so we'll give people time to awesome to get it and read it. So how about you pat on. Well there's been a lack going on Obviously we haven't recorded an episode in a little bit. And i have some updates to all of that but i want to save that till the end of the episode. Yeah let's let's let's Let's keep going. Yeah yeah i wanted to keep the positiveness up. We'll we'll definitely get to that We actually have some shoutouts. So there are two ways that you can get a shout on ghostly in this particular section The first way is to help us out by buying us some coffee on by amir. Coffey dot com. We love coffee. Yeah and we have a couple of those actually time and then the other way is that we If you give us a review on apple podcast to we will read it out there. You go so Why don't you do the by mia coffee. Once i will i will so we had three different By mia coffee's. I is kevin who we love Kevin's i mean. We love everybody but especially Kevin he has been listening to us for a long time and has always been very supportive. and then the other two are people that will one is someone that i i work with Becky is amazing. She's museum her job. And she is an amazing friend and elegant supportive of ghostly and it's very cute because So she gave us a a coffee And then so did her husband as a gift ever anniversary because they love the show so much. So thank you think you think you to All of you dean. Becky and kevin forgiving us coffees. Multiple coffees each Means so much to us And anyone that wants to you give us coffee can go right ongoing podcasts dot com and the coffee cup and becky and dean are members. Now that's right. There are also members so they will get i look at future episode topics and get to chat with us. So we have. We have more plan for that leads you. We do just haven't implemented them next year. Yeah okay so we do have a review on apple. Podcast and it is from friends at at prairie paranormal pod. Yes i believe that's the name of their podcast So it it's called great spooky fund and it's a five star reviews. I mean you you know. You can't go wrong with the five stars. I think it's the best type of review so He said. I just recently started listening to this show. And i'm really enjoying it. The topics are interesting. Interviews are great. And i like the skeptic patrick versus believer rebecca debate format. Oh i thought he was i. Yeah i was gonna say. I could tell you a real excited i know. He just likes the format Alternately once the evidence is presented its left in the listeners. Hands to decide who won either hash tag team believer or hash. Tag team skeptic. And i haven't experienced this type of audience engagement with any other podcasts. That i listen to and that's a big thing for us to is. We are so lucky. Yeah we are so lucky that we have listeners. That vote that. Come to clubs. I mean amazing. Yeah i mean you know when. We created the podcast. That was our ideas that we didn't want to just be us talking. We wanna we wanna really hear what you say absolutely and we give you a lot of different ways to to voice your opinions absolutely good or bad you got it Do we have any listener. Mouth speaking of hearing from a from From people right acting we do. This is another Hand written letter that we got. I'm so excited Remember you can mail us to Just go to our website and you have all all of the information there on how to contact desk ahead. Okay go sleep. Podcast dot com. And if you want our address. It's on the bottom phone number. If you wanna leave a voicemail. We have a lot of different ways for you guys to get hold of us carrier pigeon whatever you need okay. So this one is from c. Is how they signed it. Okay i know who he is. But i don't know if that person trying to be gender would want us to say his or her name especially since they signed it with the see we're going to we're we're gonna assume they see okay so I type this out. So that i could make sure i read this correctly. Forgive the handwriting but you asked for. I have worked in a in a historic attraction. For twenty years. We have many stories to start. The original owner was very into the colt and the whole metaphysics movement at the beginning of the twentieth century so something linger here however. I have heard disembodied voices. Many times. When i know i'm alone. I've heard disembodied voices many times. When i know i'm alone. We hear music in the gallery and definite cold spots seventy plus degrees. If i say hello to susan the owner. She is good and nothing happens when i am in there. If i forget i get door. Slamming furniture moved breezes where there are no open windows. Just a few curiosities see interesting. Yeah so i think when she says susan the owner. I'm assuming she doesn't mean the current owner. I'm guessing that's the original owner that she has to say hi to when she's there. Yeah i think we've talked about actually doing. This is like an episode. At some point to yeah. This is a place that we might be able to travel to so We're gonna have to look into that. I haven't done any research into it besides just casual research. Yeah so exciting. Yeah all right so. We're going to skip over the paul's this episode. Nope nope nope. We never do that. Why not doing that. So that's the whole interactive thing all right so our latest episode. We talked about the houdini sand. Says the question was. Has houdini ever been contacted with say ads. Sure don't be scared. You have won several several of the votes lately. My believers are not coming out as as they need to so You know what's going to happen. Okay let's see. I write so yes. Seventeen point four percent. No eighty two point six percents. Oh that is like the biggest win i've ever had. I think it might be even ones that we know aren't real like amityville. Yeah i wasn't as big as this is just insane. Well i think you. And jacob mayfield's convinced people jacob mayfield was more on the believer side. i think he's neutral. He's neutral maintaining. Wow well thank you guys for voting and you know it might not have been exactly fair because we kept the polls open forever. That's true these are open for a longer than they usually are the longest ever. Yeah so it might not have been fair. But i'm gonna take it as a win. That's okay okay. So we're really excited to be doing this episode about mary. Todd lincoln i. We had originally decided to do this episode as one of our sand episodes in october and two followed her up with a conclusion episode on santa's but with all that's been happening We're just going to combine the two together so this is going to be our conclusion. Episode is well that being said though we will focus a lot on mary. Todd lincoln As she's just a fascinating part of our nation's history by the way she never went by mary. Todd lincoln really did. I've never heard her called otherwise when she got married mary lincoln. I mean that makes sense. Was todd her maiden todd was her maiden name how interesting i wonder why history. We've decided call her that. I mean i've heard anything about that. Is that is the truth. Okay we've already mentioned her. A few times in other ghostly episodes like our abraham lincoln episode of course But in this episode. We'll take a more in depth. Look at her history both before. And after abraham lincoln and focus a little bit more on her spiritual side which she probably had the most belief in the paranormal Ish than any other first lady. Yes i mean there's been a few you got you got your nancy. Reagan right rail but Yeah i think. I think really she was the top of that lushes the most famous i would say shore definitely so. Do you ever go story for. Let's kick it off with the ghost story this is. This was a hard one to go story. Yeah well you know. It's it's hard to be happy sounding with you. Know it's not gonna but then again it should it. Go story be happy. I don't know who knows all right here. we go. i am overjoyed. Yesterday i experienced my loved ones again. After so much sorrow it was a relief to know that i am still protected and watched over upon my arrival in boston. I attempted to conceal who i was using a made up name in order to keep the press from knowing and my only living son from complaining about my desire to talk to those. We've lost using my pseudonym. I visited a famous medium and i'm sure he did not know who i was. We sat around a table and he used many elements of the spiritualist to reach out beyond the veil. What happened next will live with me forever. I saw my sweet tad's face. I lost him a few years ago. When i had already lost so many i had seen poor willie before which gave me great comfort but not tad yet. Then as we were speaking to the dead felt him. I felt my age hands on my shoulders. He made his presence known to me because he knows how much i need it but listener that is not the end of my tail so inspired. I was by the feel of my late husband's hands that i went to a famous spirit photographer. I can't wait to see what shows in this revealing medium wile and we're gonna find out what that is later on. I think we should definitely take a break as we have a huge history section. Are we to get ready for that history. So it's going to be big all right all right so i'll be back in a second. Hey guys what. I've learned over the last couple of years is the key to a really good. Podcast is two things getting plenty of apple. podcast reviews and lots of caffeine. You can help us with both of those head over to apple. Podcast writing a review. And if you feel up to it you can even buy a cup of coffee. You can go to buy me a coffee dot com slash ghostly podcast or just go sleep. Podcasts dot com and click on the bias coffee. You can sign up for a membership or a one time donation toss. It would really be appreciated. Hey welcome back to the history section. Or as bob has called it hashtag. Pat facts facts. Facts fact sack. That's my version. I can't say it any other way all right so we're going to start off talking about mary. Todd's early life Mary todd was born in lexington kentucky on december thirteenth eighteen eighteen. She was the fourth child out of seven children born to robert smith. Todd and elizabeth Elisa parker tot both of her great grandfather came from ireland actually and some of our other ancestors came from scotland so she is definitely of that descent Mary todd was actually given the name. Mary ann todd but with seven siblings. They decided to use that name and for one of her sisters. So she dropped the an Mary had the nickname of molly. Not really sure how that got started. Like i don't understand some of these You know. Jack john yes. Molly is nickname for mary again. He had no idea. I i don't i don't get that okay that's fine. That's fine Mary's family was considered fairly wealthy but mary didn't live a life of glamour. Though her life was tough tougher than most people could even imagine. It gave her a more serious demeanor when she was just six years old. Her mother died while giving birth as was common in those days. Her father remarried. He married a woman named elizabeth betsy humphrey and they had an additional nine children. Okay i think. Mary todd's Father really like to have kids. Yeah that is a lotta kids. Sixteen kids advocates. Let's just say that mary Really didn't get along with betsy. Bow with all those children. The todd family needed a big home and in eighteen thirty two. They moved into what is now known as the mary. Todd lincoln house which was probably not known as the mary. Todd lincoln those guessing not It was very very elegant and had fourteen rooms and it was located at five. Seventy eight west main street in lexington. I definitely want to visit that. Yeah that'd be great. Since mary's family was fairly class she attended madame. Mantles finishing school. She learned to speak french fluently and studied dance drama music and social graces as well as literature. I'm sure that is something that impresses you there. She was a very well rounded in highly educated woman. She understood politics as well as any politician of those days and her family was all part of the whig party in october of eighteen thirty nine. Mary moved to springfield illinois to live with her sister. Elizabeth porter edwards. Elizabeth was married to nineteen ninety. And let's do you mean w. edwards. He was a son of a former governor. Mary was courted by several young men. One of which was stephen douglas. Yeah right Who was a lawyer and democratic party politician. But abraham lincoln stood out maybe because he was also a fellow whig Which is kind of funny because they became republicans. Yes oh my goodness the rivalry between douglas and lincoln. It was it was. It was big. Wow so. Mary actually met lincoln in eighteen forty when she was twenty one and he was thirty one. She was definitely smitten with him. I mean after all he was tall and gangly now but he was a very kind man. That's what they all said about him. when abe proposed to mary she accepted even though her family didn't really like him because he was poor and didn't really have much political prospects. I would love to say that everything went perfect after that but it really didn't. They had a different kind of relationship all throughout their relationship. There was definitely loved there but there was definitely This they were just completely different people at times So in eighteen forty one linkin broke off the engagement. Wow i go back. And forth calling him. Abe abraham lincoln and lincoln. So you know your close friends now each time to milazzo so some say that they got got back together shortly after the break But others say that they didn't get back together until eighteen forty two. Whatever the case is they got married very fairly quickly. After getting back together they married on november fourth to both mary and abe were considered abolitionist. Which meant that they. sought the immediate and full emancipation of off slaves. Mary was probably an even bigger believer in this than abe but a became famous for the stance on slavery fairly early on in his senate election against stephen a douglas that a blast abe with his new found fame really pushed himself to be successful to be a successful springfield lawyer during this time. Mary supervised their ever-growing house. They did have four children overall. They had robert todd lincoln. They had Eddie or edward. Baker lincoln william wallace lincoln willie. And thomas lincoln tat. Mary was often left alone for months at a time to raise children. While abe was off being circuit lawyer in eighteen fifty ten months before the birth of willie. Eddie pass away. The official cause of death was to burke yellow sus but therapy people that would say it was more likely a form of some kind of bayreuth cancer that abe and The eldest son robert had several signs of the genetic markers. That interesting obviously This this crushed lincoln family at that point There are not many stories of addie as he was four years old when he died but he always see was seen as like a sweet little boy. Yeah well if four absolutely so we all know that. Abraham lincoln became our sixteenth. So i won't go through the whole election process the times he's one time he lost But to hear more about that you can listen to. Our abraham lincoln episode life as a first lady was not an easy life for any first lady but it seemed even more difficult for mary than it did for most her personality. You know Mary's family being from a border state were where slavery was permitted. Meant that several of her half brothers served in the confederate army and were killed during the civil war. That's always difficult when lake. Your family is split which certainly happened at that time. Upset when your husband is the president and you know kind of leading the charge. That's definitely gotta be divide for you. Definitely you know it. It was difficult because mary really held true to her beliefs. And those of abs know of slavery was not was not right. So i mean they had to do it and i'm sure. She wished that her half brothers wouldn't have been on that side In this is something that we don't really think about when we think about mary. Todd lincoln we think about you. Know abraham lincoln died. We think of her sons dying. We don't think about you know a lot of her out of her half brothers dying. Yeah critics describe. Mary's manners as coarse and pretentious. She had trouble negotiating white house social responsibilities and rivalries She was accused of overspending when it came to refurbishing the white house and buying new china in this caused a lot of turmoil between her and abe even though congress eventually approved most of these expenses he thought it made them look bad because the country was at war with itself and they're buying new china for the white house he was. I believe a bit of a shopaholic. I'm just gonna say. I think that was how she dealt with her grief. That's true she had a lot of grief grief that she went through the more that she spent at. Mary also suffered from very severe headaches. Or what we would call now migraines She also suffered from chronic depression. Her headaches got even worse when she suffered a head injury in a carriage accident during her white house years. Oh never heard that yup. She had a history of mood swings. Fierce temper public outbursts throughout lincoln's presidency as well as excessive spending and it has led some historians and psychologists to argue that. Mary suffered from bipolar disorder. Well that's interesting. Yeah i suppose yeah. We'd have to really see like does she. Was it a wild swing between them or what but she definitely had the Depressive side to it definitely. The manic side was the buying. Yeah so it's possible. I you know it's really hard to diagnose with mental illnesses. After they're gone right. You know so. In february twentieth eighteen sixty two willie passed away of typhoid fever in the white house. Now willie and became ill in early eighteen. Sixty two Possibly with typhoid fever tad was relatively lightly affected but willie gradually weakened in his parents spent much of their time at at his bedside. Mary remained in bed for three weeks and was unable to attend willie's funeral or look after. Tad abraham lincoln took solace in carrying foreign comforting tad. I think tad was his favorite actually know willie was his favorite. Yeah they were people said well. You know the willie was very much like lincoln and had that same sense of humor and all of that. But who knows i mean. Obviously they loved their children. That was just well at least. That's what i got from reading the lincoln and the bardo. Okay yes well. I do know that Both willie and tad were bit of troublemakers. Yes definitely yeah so Yeah you know tad What remained ill after the death of his brother And had to deal with some grieving with that as well so that was really hard on on tad. This was one of the most devastating moments for both the lincoln's they dealt with grief differently and this strained their marriage even more Mary was so distraught for many months. That lincoln had to employ nurse to look after her. So of course we all know that abraham lincoln was assassinated on april fourteenth. Sixty five so. I won't go through all the details of that but some things that we should mention our It was announced the newspaper that the lincolns would be attending the theatre that evening and they enjoyed going to the theater. That was the one thing that they really both. could bond over Mary got a headache and wanted to stay home. But a a didn't want to allow that because it was announced in the newspaper and especially This was you know. Shortly after the civil war had ended it would have looked really bad then clara hamilton harris and her fiance major henry. Rathbone were guest. Lincoln's to the theater that evening now. I don't want to be scandalous. But i read that those two were step siblings of each other. No i'm just putting that out. There is a weird little thing that iran interesting during the third act. The president and missile lincoln drew close together holding hands while enjoying the play. Mary whispered to her husband who was holding her hand. What will miss harris think of my hanging on tv. So the president smiled and replied. She won't think anything about it. That was the last word spoken between the little one. The bullet struck lincoln. Mary was holding his hand. Lincoln was brought across the street to the peterson house and mary in their eldest son. Robert sat with lincoln throughout the night and into the following morning and at one point Secretary of war edmund. M stanton ordered mary from the room as she was so unhinged with grief but shortly before seven am was allowed to return to lincoln side and she again seated herself by the president kissing him and calling him every enduring name and then he passed. I think it was like seven. Twenty two or something I have been in that room have you. Is it a big room now. Yeah that's what. I've heard so after aids death. Mary returned illinois and lived in chicago with her sons. While in the white house. Mary had and not only over spent on things for the white house but also on clothes and jewelry. Most of that had to be returned or sold. She didn't have much money at all. she kinda did but she didn't. She was one of those kind of people that always thought that she was going to be poor In fact what she would do is she had like fifty five thousand dollars that she would so into her dresses all really which by the way after after abe died she only wore black Even though she bought dresses of various colors only were black. Data interesting well and i think she's also one of those ones that like she probably. I know that she got a pension and different things. And we're gonna talk about. Oh okay but the idea that You know she probably had enough to live on but she just like like to spend money on her friend and former dressmaker. Elizabeth chemically published. A book about her time is being a slave Elizabeth was asleep This book provided some insight into the character and life of mary but mary and much of the press of the day saw this as a breach of friendship but today's historians find this as a valuable look into the lives of the lincoln's mary had lobbied for For a pension for first ladies in july fourteenth eighteen seventy it was passed by congress. Barely it provided three thousand dollars a year which is about the equivalent to sixty one thousand dollars a year in today's money. Okay gotcha good. On july fifteenth. Eighteen seventy one tad lincoln passed away. So this is the third of four children asked to a robert One onto live past her and became a pretty successful Attorney yes well so the cause of death has has been They you know they're they say could have been turkey laos's they said i could be pneumonia. Could've been congestive heart failure. They really don't know he was. He was eighteen years old and he had been so sick when he was young to know. Typhoid fever can really you know linger on sure. When abraham lincoln was assassinated. Ted said this is dead. I can hardly believe that. I shall never see him again. I must learn to take care of myself now. Yes pas dad in only tad lincoln now little tad like other little boys. I am not a president son now. I won't have many presents anymore. Well i will try and be a good boy. And we'll hope to go someday. To pa and brother willy and heaven. Oh yeah the death of her son tad in july eighteen seventy one following the death to other sons in her husband brought on an overpowering grief and depression her surviving son robert. Rising young chicago lawyer was alarmed. At his mother's increasingly erratic behavior robert initiated proceedings to have mary institutionalized on may twentieth eighteen seventy five following a trial a jury committed her to a private asylum in batavia illinois named bellevue place after the trial. Mary tried to commit suicide. She went to several different pharmacies and ordered eighteen. Stor made up made with enough Pm to do the job and luckily a pharmacist gave her a placebo. Instead after three months she devised an escape plan. She wrote letters to her lawyer and personal friend and to the chicago sun-times to avoid a bigger scandal. She was released to her sister. Elizabeth again in springfield go. She got herself out so then made me think about some stuff One of the things that we've talked about a lot previous ghostly episodes was the spiritualist movement in the united states. I took place between the eighteen forties in the nineteen twenties and It really popularized things like seances and Other forms of give nation and speaking with the dad so this was definitely something that was becoming popular. I'm sure mary helped make it more popular But another thing that i really started thinking about. Is you know we did. Our dr white. Sanitarium sewed And during that we started talking about how sanitariums became popular in the united states. And that was around this time. It was like ten years after mary was put in a sanitarium interesting Bellevue place where mary todd. Lincoln state was open sometime around eighteen. Sixty seven by dr. richard peterson and it was considered a private rest home but also served as sanitarium for women and So yeah yeah. That's interesting though to think about that issue was again. I love all of our stuff matches up. I guess your gets connections. Yeah when you look at the time frame of these things. It seems pretty obvious that You know if this had happened prior to that it she might you know. Prior to eighteen sixty seven. She probably wouldn't have been put into a sanitarium or today internet's just able to just you know. Oh mary so i. I just wanted to say that. I think that mary has gotten a bad rep in us history. I think she's often been seen as this crazy woman. One in actuality. It's just her. Grief was just too much for any person to deal with on on her own. I mean and you know. Even when abe was alive they didn't grieve the same way She would oftentimes be off in her room and he would be. You know going to The gravesite to mourn and stuff or they just they just grief differently. I think the timing of the spiritualist movement and the started the sanitariums popularity in the us played a major in. How people saw her so. Mary spent the next four years traveling through europe and took up residence in france for a little while but during this time her health really started to decline she suffered from severe cataracts that left her eyesight largely diminished which caused her to fall off and in eighteen seventy nine. She suffered a spinal cord injury from a fall from a step ladder. She successfully petitioned congress for an increase in her in her pension and also got a one time bonus. Yeah yeah she did really well. She was really good with politics and Especially you know. The republican party was Just starting off with abe lincoln so You she made a lot of connections so in the early eighteen eighties. She was forced to return to springfield into live out her final days with her sister. Her health kept her from doing anything else besides just living she needed around the clock. Care july fifteenth eighteen eighty two. Exactly eleven years after tad died to the day she collapsed. She lapsed into a coma and died the next morning of a stroke. At the age of sixty three her funeral service was held at first presbyterian church in springfield illinois. Wow what an interesting story. Yeah we didn't even cover you know so. Many of the political intrigues. And all the things i'm sure she was involved with but just What an amazing woman. I mean was yeah. Tragic very much but Obviously you know was able to to accomplish too. And she was well known in her day to even even after a pastime. Sure i'm sure Constantly in the paper you know probably for not great things but you know she was. She was definitely a A pop figure. Yeah those days interesting all right. So do you have anything to add to the history. I don't think we you man. You did a good job. And i tried to add in a few little things there so i think we're good. Yeah i've passed by The bellevue right. Yes me too. Yeah actually. I will mention this as well. is that So batavia illinois is real close to us and that's where we're that wheelhouse are sorry. The home was But i also in my research found out that there is a hotel or what used to be a hotel in saint charles illinois which is also close to us where abe in. Mary would often visit some of their friends that owned this hotel or the end. They would stay there while visiting. Colonel phoebe bian. Who's our big famous person around here. was was friends with them and they claim the there's one article i read that there were potentially stances that happened in this. How a hotel in saint charles But i really couldn't find a whole lot of details about it so we're not gonna go talk any more about it but i just thought that was such an interesting you know chicago connection and local illinois connection. We're surrounded by lincoln's here. Dr lincoln it is. We're in the lincoln that's why we love it all right so maybe we take a break and then we'll get into the debate. Let's do it all right He listeners did you know there's a way to share with the world whether you're hash hashtag team believer or hashtags team skeptic or for those who needed cash tag team the middle. It's our store called. Ghostly gear yup and we even have custom grossly designs like micro-climate or even the easter island massacre or of the ghostly logo just visit our ghostly gear store right on ghostly podcast dot com to order. Your t-shirt hoodie mug masks whatever. Okay okay well. I think we got it They're they just seem to visit ghostly. Podcast dot com. Click on a ghostly gear to order right on the website. And send us any ideas that you have for newmarch exactly order your merch today. And send us a pick of you and your ghostly gear All right we're back for the debate. Okay you ready for this. I am ready for this well before we start our debate. I i wanted to mention a few things about mary. Todd lincoln and spiritualism. You certainly talked a little bit about it but You know. I wanted to just talk about specifically the time That were referencing. The civil war was really a big moment for spiritualism yes because so many people weren't allowed to be with their family members when they passed absolutely you know they were away and they never even got to. You know even see the body or any of that and so spiritualism became this way of getting that final last word absolute with someone that they lost So i think that was a big piece of it and so it really wasn't unusual. You know that mary. Lincoln sought out mediums. We have proof that she read books on spiritualism you know i mean obviously you just went. Through how many losses she suffered and but also just again that it was. It was not unusual at the time. i mean. at least it wasn't like it was everybody believed i mean. Certainly people ridiculed in washington circles and And all that but you know there is absolutely proved that she had sand says at the white house that lincoln was present for at least some of them and You know whether or not anything happened at those. That's what we're going to debate. But you know it. Wasn't you know if you could imagine that today. I think it would be a more scandalous thing than it was. Then i think more what was scandalous is. Actually people were upset with her. Because they're like. Hey you at least got to be with your son when he passed away in your husband when he passed away. I didn't get to do that so they're probably heard her a lot as well. Yeah you know. And i you had mentioned a a story about One time that lincoln are that abe was was fed up with the whole notion and like tried to disprove it. And we're going to definitely talk about that. Okay yeah good story. It is a good story. So i just wanted to mention a few quotes that i found from mary. Todd on the subject before we get into her her stories here So the first is She said a very slight veil separates us from the loved and lost. She wrote to a friend though unseen by us they are very near okay so that i think that very much captures you know her but she also wrote To a friend in eighteen sixty nine. I am not either a spiritualist but i sincerely believe our loved ones who have gone only gone before are permitted to watch over those who were dear to them in life. I should have lost my reason. Long air this if i had entertained other views than i do on the subject so she did not ever say that she was a spiritualist. Yeah wasn't like that was her religion or anything But she again. We have proof that she read books written by spiritual as she visited mediums. All the time things. Yeah you know so it so she. She's certainly believed in life after death and being visited by spirits and that is what kept her going. Okay all right so the first thing we're gonna talk about an again just like everything is episode. There's lots to talk about But i wanted to talk about charles. J colchester colchester holds esther. Now there is a lot with him that just something that's aside from. This story is supposedly. He was also acquainted with or close associates with booth. John wilkes booth interest and that supposedly. He tried to warn lincoln that something could happen. Colchester booth no coal. Colchester warren lincoln. Like hey you should be careful because somebody else warned lincoln and he said to that person colchester keeps warning me too so is interesting but that's not the story for today. So one of the. He was one of the biggest mediums that mary saw. He was red-faced. blue-eyed he was an englishman had a large moustache and he claimed to be the son of a duke an illegitimate son of a duke. There was never. I don't know if we ever had any real proof of that. But that's what he claimed. he professed to have remarkable powers. He could read sealed letters. Cry out the names of visitors. Deceased friends 'cause apparitions to appear and produce words on his forearm in blood red letters. Oh you know what i am. Realizing nowadays is that there's not enough politicians or mediums. That have facial hair anymore. I think we need to bring that back interesting. yeah Lincoln was particularly intrigued with colchester erie ability to summon noises in different parts of room. So this is kind of what you were saying so. Mary just kept talking about this guy like he's amazing he's amazing. So lincoln finally went to one of the cross. Well i don't know. But i didn't know anything about that but But so the president went to one and so he was intrigued by that so like any rational person. The president wanted to understand what was happening so he asked colchester to submit to an examination. By joseph henry the secretary of the smithsonian institute interesting so colchester agreed Henry was not able to figure it out like he couldn't he was like i know there's something but he couldn't figure it out however by chance i believe it was. Henry met up with a guy. At a train years later who had sold to colchester the contraption that he used which was a noisemaker strapped under his arm like farting paying advert. I don't know what but something called in houdini. Well think this is a little bit before and so then But at the moment. Henry couldn't disprove it. So then henry. Asked noah brooks to examine colchester Also at this moment. Actually mrs lincoln went to brooks Culture was trying to blackmail her. Yeah so we don't think yeah So here's the thing. I just love this long. And to be honest i think this is going to be pretty obvious what we what we're going to rate this evidence but i just like the story. So this is. How noah brooks recco recollect what happened the night that he was testing colchester. Okay after the company had been seated around the table in the usual approved manner and the lights were turned out the silence was broken by the thumping of a drum the twang of a banjo and the ringing of bells all all of which instruments had been laid on the table. Ready for use by some hocus pocus. It was evident. Colchester had freed his hands from the hands of those who sat on each side of him and was making music in the air. Loosening my hands from my neighbors. Who were unbelievers. I rose and grasping in the direction of the drumbeat grabbed a very solid and fleshy hand. In which was held abell that was being thumped on a drumhead. I shouted strega. Light strike you can turn on the lights. So i love that. That's great my friend. After what appeared to be an unconscionable length of time late at a match but meanwhile somebody had dealt me a severe blow with the drum the edge of which cut a slight wound on my forehead when the gas was finally lated. A singular spectacle was presented of the son of of the duke firmly grasped by a man whose forehead was covered with blood while the arrested sign of nobility was glorying at the drum and bells which he still held in his hands. I mean i gotta say that takes a lot of talent. I think you're right. I mean it was definitely a you know. A big big took a lot of practice to get that very very theatrical very theatrical and so then what happened actually. I think the blackmail happened after this not too long after though because brooks then went to him and was like remember me pointed to his forehead. Basically was like you better be outta town by tomorrow or you're going to be in jail and that's how harry potter was born. That was the inspiration so so that is a story of one of her chances. I i don't think there's a lot of debate to happen. But what do you think. That's that's a little bit ridiculous there. I'm going to say that. I think it was fake here thinking to take. I think it was fake. I wasn't wasn't real. It's a feeling that. I just kind of tells me maybe this wasn't on the up and up. Yeah yeah so your rating then. Oh zero zero. Yeah i actually to give this one zero as well. You give something zero. I'm giving it a zero. All the skeptic club. Well i you know this is one where it's pretty clear that the this this guy not not not a not a medium. Not maybe no definitely taken advantage of mary todd connor. He was at connor. Artis all right all right. Let's go with evidence to evidence to so now. There's two pieces of evidence regarding Family called the lorries laurie. So i'm not gonna go superindent in-depth but A little bit about them Shortly after willie died. was introduced to the lorries. A well known group of mediums. That were located in georgetown So she found comfort in the san says by the group then she started whole whole host her own in the red room at the white house. I think that's always like ucla. Lots of articles of the red rooms aons lighthouse So there's evidence to suggest she hosted as many as eight sands is in the white house and that Lincoln was there for at least a few of them They were such an effective coping mechanism for mary that she wants remarked to her half sister that will e lives. He comes to me. Every night stands at the foot of the bed with the same sweet adorable smile that he always has had. He does not always come alone. Little eddie so those on the at four is sometimes with him. So this isn't so much about the actual sanchez. But the the effect of the sand says so after going to a number of these sand says she claimed it brought her piece because she could see willy and sometimes eddie coming to her at night. Okay and that's it. That's exactly what. I was gonna say So in this time period like nowadays. If you know you're going through a lot of grief and you're not able to process that well you will often see a therapist or being a support group. I was thinking about that earlier when we were talking about mary. It's like man. No she'd be therapy. Yeah it's a medication And you know that's the thing they didn't really have those things then and so. I really believe that these sant is were very very helpful for her in processing her grief. Yeah so yeah. I really think this. Like when i think of sand says i think of it from aside not just as the skeptic but as somebody that has gone through a lot of grief in my life my you know. My father died when i was thirteen. My mother died when i was twenty five. Various family members in between that. I've had to process a lot of grief and i didn't get there until much later and i can definitely tell you that. Yeah i do spend radically. Sometimes you know. And i do. And i did do this whole thing where i was trying to contact the dad and stuff like that. I can really relate to a mary. Todd lincoln so i think it was very helpful for her but no. This doesn't speak to any kind of truth. That could possibly be there. When when i hear stories of like santa's where they're like and great grandfather jebediah Told us where to find the box that held the key to the clock that he loved. You know those are things that i find. More compelling evidence. This doesn't have anything that says this was true. I mean was it true that she went to the santa's yes. Was it true that she had these answers. Yes but i think this was like an emotional support group for her. Yeah i think. I'm i'm torn on this one because you know. She says that she sees her willie. And sometimes eddie And that that she you know that this was a result of the sanchezes. But i don't really know if that's true you know i mean. Was that her wishful thinking that she could see them. That's what she needed. The you know i just. I don't know that one's That was. It's a hard one because it the grief i think does really really push that in there but you know i mean we also know the white house has a lot of spirits a lot of energy so i guess i don't know for sure So what would you say for your rating As far as this being a paranormal thing. I'm gonna give it a zero but as far as satisfying a need that she had. I would go all the way to attend for that. Uh-huh definitely did share. I'm i'm going to give it a four four you know. I mean i'm and allow for the possibility that maybe she saw something But i don't know that holly yeah okay. Now we're not done with the lorries though this one to me is a little more compelling all right good good. This one doesn't actually involve mary so much as abe. So nettie colbourne maynard was I know was Either with the lorries or their daughter. I think something like that. She was a part of the the laurie group So she wrote a memoir called. Was abraham lincoln spiritualist published in eighteen ninety one. She claims that it was nettie herself who acted as the medium for this particular sands Not mrs laurie or bell. Who were the traditional ones. churn This is the evening of february fifth. Eighteen sixty three When president lincoln accompanied his wife to one of the lorries popular stances. When lincoln asked the spirit she had channeled about the current situation regarding the war she writes. He received the following reply. That is a very precarious. State of things existed. Sorry that a very precarious state of things existed at the front. Where general hooker had just taken. Command of army was totally demoralized regiment stacking arms refusing to obey orders or to do duty threatening a general retreat. Declaring their purpose was to return to washington. Vivid picture was drawn of the terrible state of affairs greatly to the surprise of present. Save to the chief to whom the words were addressed when the picture had been painted in vivid colors. Mr lincoln quietly remarked. You seem to understand the situation. Can you point out the remedy. The remedies suggested was that he go to the front in person taking with him his wife and children and avoiding the high grade officers seek out the tens of private soldiers and inquire to their grievances and other words. He should show himself to be the father of the people. Now i picked this particular piece but there's also another story of her Giving another or maybe. It was at the same time or at a different time where she also tells him to support the The emancipation proclamation as well Not in such direct words but basically like you need to push forward with this thing that you're scared to do basically so i think this is an intriguing question you know. She claims that she had no knowledge of what was happening on the battlefield that this was speaking above her intellectual ability at the time she was young That she couldn't have known these things But you know is she just giving good advice. Well i mean this was during the civil war so This was already happening. Things were already going down and Everyone knew lincoln's point of view in this regard because that's why the civil war started because of how the south viewed what lincoln was going to do If you think of a war within your own country. It's pretty obvious that there's going to be a lot of people that aren't going to be willing to do the things that they need to do. And so i think that. I mean given what you read. It seems logical to be able to say that if there's a civil war in a country and its brother fighting brother sometimes there's gonna be people refusing to obey orders Her telling him what to do. I don't even know if that is the best advice actually but That is something very much is something that lincoln would wanna do that. That was the kind of person he was so i. I don't think that this is out of the norm to be able to for her. To imagined I don't think it was like you know. Sort of omen. Give me sight beyond sight kind of thing you know. He really think it was more like Yeah we're at war with each other Yeah this is how people are going to feel that data so that is my opinion of it. I don't think that this plays into any kind of paranormal or any kind of I i don't think that this really has anything to do. With the seance or anything like that was far as superpowers or anything. Well i do think You know again. I'm torn on this one. Because i do think that there is something to be said that this was a young girl that she wouldn't have been privy to a lot of this military information And so it is kind of interesting that she would be able to pinpoint things. So so specifically however The spiritualist movement was also a In some ways a very progressive movement And i do think that it was often used to ensure it was used to to make money But it would sometimes also be used to kind of put forward a lot of views. This would be a way that you could influence president. Potentially you know and so who knows if someone had if it was well known that the lincolns visited the lorries. You know what. I mean like i can't. I can't rule out the idea that someone went and talked to her knowing that she might have this opportunity. You know to tell her what she should say could read the paper. I mean she was in the paper that like. I don't think people knew how bad some of that was. I think tried to back then. Papers were a little more key. Didn't always print stuff. So well. I i'm gonna rate this evidence as a one. Okay just because i mean there is a little bit more to this than the rest of the stuff that we've talked about But it's not enough where it would be like some startling detail that she couldn't no yeah in other ways. Yeah i'm going to give it a five okay again. I guess at a little more believable for me but still shaky all right all right right for the last one last one. Okay yes okay. So this was. The story are story for today So when tad died in eighteen seventy one. Mary was again very sad You know in in despair So sometime late that year or early 1872 Mary traveled to moravia new york Where she visited a number of spiritualists During that time she believes she saw tad's face during one of the senses. She then moved on to boston for two weeks day. Where she again went to a medium And by the way during this whole time she did claim to she did travel under a pseudonym lake. She was trying to be incognito people like. she didn't introduce yourself as as mary. Todd lincoln or mary. Lincoln or molly lincoln or whatever so But during this visit in boston there is where she claimed to have seen lincoln's spirit and felt him put his hands on her shoulders This is when some people may have heard of this. After that experience she went. To william memoir. Who's a famous spirit photographer. Where he took the famous picture of her with lincoln standing over her with his hands on her shoulders You know which she had just felt at this other sands sure. Well i cannot speak to what she saw you know or what. She felt Because that's a very personal thing and she might have felt it because of some you know some kind of trickery or something like that. It might have been something like that. The rooms are really dark during stances. And you never know So i i can't really speak to that but i can speak to the picture. That is one thing that i can't speak to so back in those days They would do this double thing that they had and It wasn't easy to prove back in those days. Because i mean the photography equipment wasn't the greatest and people. It would cost a lot of money to have all these things and stuff so there wasn't as much People that could look into that but modern day people have examined this and it is a classic double exposure meaning that there was a picture of lincoln already and then They took an exposure with mary in front of it. Yeah and it all gets developed into that one that one picture and it looks kind of believable for those days. But i mean if you look at it now i mean seriously it's you could you could spot it with your eye so we'll we'll put it in our show notes for sure for people to see I think again. I listened to the most notorious Podcasts and they had a a an author who wrote a whole book on it was yeah. There's definitely a lot of evidence that he was not a a real spare photographer. No but he gave them what they what they needed. At that time. You know she needed to have that kind of proof in to to feel that closeness with her with her husband and I mean so. Like i don't like that. Money was exchanged probably for this in probably a good amount of money. I would imagine But you know i do recognize. That was giving her something that she needed. So that's your rating for that one. I'm going to have to zero. It's pretty much been disproven so okay. I'll say that when i'm gonna give i'm going to give a four just not necessary so much for the picture but for what she saw and felt during the sanchezes. Don't know maybe okay so What is your overall rating for. So this one's hard because we are rolling together stances and mary. Todd lincoln But i have to say that stories that we've chosen Have made it really more difficult for me to be supportive of sans as i have been in the past. I think when you involve so many people and money like this is different than just like a one on one or you know someone that you go to As a friend or or even again just kind of like a A more friendly situation. You know what i mean. When it's a big group of people in the lights are out and there's things happening. I just think it opens it up to so much more trickery absolutely so i'm gonna i'm gonna say a five for overall sale overall stance like do i think that they're i. I have absolutely visited mediums. I know this is something we haven't Talked about because i was a saving it But you know. I did visit a medium Twice and the first time. I saw her I really did get and she did speak to relatives of mine. That had passed. That was very believable to me. You have you felt. I felt that she did But the second time i went back it was interesting. It felt like it was like the end of the day and she was in a rush and it was she was not in the mode and it was all like i could tell that this was her. Just doing the like things that you saying. The things you'd say to somebody in this situation you know and it didn't feel as real and nobody really came through and none of the things that she said it was it was like and then she was trying to sell like some diet food or you know like he was so it was so disappointing. So you know i do. I think that there really are mediums. Out there that are potentially able to speak to those that have passi. Yes but in a sense. I think it's way too easy for there to be trickery while for me i'm going to Go you didn't give you my five. How about you. I'm going to have to go. I i'm gonna say a one on that Just because you know. There has been times. That i've heard things where i i don't know how they could have had the information otherwise but it. I don't know if it necessarily proves that there was Like just because. I don't know how doesn't mean that they didn't get it some other way and in none of the Cases that we've brought up. Have i've found that to be true right. I can always figure out that there's other ways and there's more logical ways than speaking with the dad. I visited some mediums in my days. While because i you know had a a need in a desire to speak with my father and you know it sometimes. I felt comforted by it but i never felt like like this was actually my father that i spoke to or that. You know that person was speaking to. I felt like i felt like i got out of it. What i when. I needed just like mary So yeah i'm gonna. I'm gonna go with a one just just because you know there's that little bit of want and desire that i have to believe in this i just i just can't really i. I wouldn't put any money on it. That's for sure. Okay gotcha all right. So are we ready for our closing arguments. Yeah let's do it all right so that brings us to the closing arguments. This is our last chance to convince you to vote our way and we are each given one minute of uninterrupted time. We will time each other on our cell phones to keep each other honest and rebecca. Are you ready. And i have one minute on the clock and it starts now all right so i do think that seances Can be real. I do think that a group of people can reach out and talk to spirits I do think that there are mediums out there that are closer to the other side of the vale than others. However i think we always need to be very cautious anytime. We're in that kind of situation. Especially a big showy seance. With a lot of people. I think most often those are not real. They are being done to make money to be a show. That can be fun as long as you know that. That's what you're getting into But i don't want to take away from. I do think there really are people that can have moments where they speak to those we've lost and that that can bring us comfort Or even information that we wouldn't have known otherwise But i don't think that it's always that way right. I made it you did. Are you ready. I am ready. Yes and go so I've been very nice about how i feel about is but there's there's other side to it that i have a great deal of anger for because when i find happens a lot of times as people are taking advantage of people I i've seen people that spend every dollar that they have on psychics and on mediums and on general seances And these people that are doing these readings know that they know that they do not have enough money and this is what they do to survive is to con- these people into believing it's a mixture of cold reading and A mixture of just guessing and When you're wrong it's you know it's always about something else. I really think that It it is a it is a tragedy what they do all right. You just made it. I'll let you have that one. I will be sure to go out and vote to vote on this on this. You yemi scared. Oh no voting that stuff that's done. The remem- goes li-listeners. We know voting. We do it all the time. Definitely guest dot com and you can vote your own and we really want to hear your opinion on this definitely so i wanna thank everyone so much for listening. Please share us with your friends and family. As word of mouth is our best form of advertisement We will be talking about the curse on the kennedys on the next episode. That comes out november twenty fifth. We just can't get enough of this presidential history stuff. No i love it. I mean and definitely you know this was brought to us by a listener and man. It's such a good idea. Because there's so much that went on in kennedy's family And i did promise an update on what's going on here and So if you're if you're listener and you don't wanna if you're you're this is a year from now the we'll be no more episode. This is just going to be an update on what's been going on with us and why we've missed the last few episodes so absolutely free to turn it off. If you're not interested at this point. Okay we'll see you later. So i wanted to apologize for our lack of episodes lately and i know the everyone's going to say that there's no need to apologize but i feel like i do We were all set to do weekly episodes in october Life kind of has a way of derailing even your best intentions right So i had a huge health scare. I had some blood work done and my doctor quickly called me and told me to go to the hospital. It seems my kidneys had failed mean and this is something that totally came out of nowhere. it was something that happened within weeks. Right it's not like you've been suffering for years or anything. This was just out of nowhere. It was just out of nowhere. Yeah and When all the tests came back they diagnosed me with a very rare disease. It's called good pastures disease Which is a horrible name for what i got. It should be like nightmare swamp. Yes nightmare swap. I think is what i decided. Yeah or maybe they name it after me because it's so rare. Basically the antibodies in my plasma have been attacking and destroying my kidneys. And nobody knows how. Or why. I got this It's just one of those things and it's made it really hard to do. The research needed to push out these episodes. Because i'm often tired lack of energy. I don't feel necessarily bad. I just feel tired rights. Which you know i just wanna say You know that you're getting treatment. We don't know what the path forward will exactly look like so we don't wanna make you know whatever you know. We'll we'll keep you updated as we go But i think the number one takeaway is to go to your doctor. Yes i think that's why you know for us. It's important to bring this to listeners. No matter when you're listening to this You know you felt tired. People feel tired. I felt tired. I was retaining a little bit of water hindsight now probably a lot of water. Yeah right And you know was a little nauseous. Sometimes i mean besides that. I was carrying on with my regular days. Everything was fine but you decided you know what i feel off enough that i'm going to go see my doctor and your doctor was smart enough to say you know what let's do physical because we don't know what this we don't know what's going on. I actually argued with them about that. I just need something for the water retention. Hey right and But he insisted on doing blood work with you. And that's how this all started. And i think it's something that we should all listen to you and i it's hard right now to with With kofi is is you. Know you with the rona. You know you're thinking. I don't wanna go to the doctor. I don't want to go to the hospital. But you know honestly. I think you're experienced seem to be pretty safe. Lots of mass. Lots of cleaning lot. You got tested. A lot of times and You know it was a safe experience and it. It saved your life definitely it. Did i mean seriously when you look at people that get undiagnosed with this It's pretty much a death sentence. You know but i do want to thank everyone that that has reached out to us. And all of those that have you know kept us in your thoughts and prayers and we're very fortunate to have such an amazing listener base and I really feel that. You're all our friends as well. And i really appreciate that and i can't tell you how much that that has helped me through this. Yeah ghostly is a great group. Yeah definitely at a great motivator. Yeah i think for both of us. And i couldn't wait to get back to doing this. We talked often about when we were going to report this episode and even in the hospital. I was doing research. I just wasn't tallying it up. I just wasn't writing a script out from right right. So i had ideas the whole time and that was kind of frustrating because i kept changing my ideas of how i wanted to do this so but that's that's it and hopefully we're back to a regular pattern of every two weeks now. We hope you know just you know. We'll we'll keep your keep the be if you're not on social media and make sure you are. Yeah it'll be posts on there. I prefer to do it on ghostly society more because it's more of a discussion than short So if you're not a part of ghostly society you know now's the time we have three hundred and sixty people in there right now. Which is doesn't seem like much but it is a great group. They're really is and you know we've all got to know each other and i really appreciate that until next. Time stay ghostly.