20 Episode results for "Edwin Stanton"
Inside the Episode | 13
"Welcome and congratulations you have made it through thirteen eighteen episodes now of eighteen sixty five and you've just listened to the finale of the edwin stanton portion of that art. This is really kind of at the end of this main story but don't worry there's bonus episodes yet to come where we dive into some of the backstory of the conspiracy with booth and the conspirators but this was the big finish the grand finale the effort to impeach andrew johnson the wrap up of the story and the saying saying goodbye to our lead character edwin stanton the two guys that wrote it and broke all our hearts with me now. Stephen walters and eric are chila. Chila guys welcome back. Hey rob. Thank you run. What a long strange road. It's been my friends for us for stanton. Both there's some there's some parallels is there. I think the consequences for us just being exhausted and a little punch drunk <hes> his were a little more. The stakes were a little higher for his for his journey. The end the country but agreed a lot of a lot of real history went into this episode so let's talk about what the real history of these moments are and it starts with a flashback to the battle of gettysburg before eve of the battle of gettysburg which this is based based on a real conversation that happened between lincoln and stanton on on the eve of that battle that's right this was recounted by stanton later about this conversation that lincoln had and just the the gravity of the moment <hes> not knowing if they were going to win or lose that this is a make or break moment for the civil war so steve. Why did you hold on this moment for this. Well episode in the real history of of what happened in that conversation i believe <hes> they they made the decision at stanton stanton's urging that they replace the current general who is going to be fighting that battle with a new general and it was because that general just loss it suffered a major defeat not long before the battle of gettysburg and stanton felt his spirits were broken and at the spirits of the men were broken so stanton put a new general in place to kind of give them light yeah general meat <hes> but my instead of getting into i think in my first pass on it i did get into that. I think that's what i made. The scene about you know about you know the kind of leaning into the idea of like hey you know sometimes is when things are failing. You need to take a new tack a new approach but then i i kind of went in the other direction at eric suggestion and made the scene about this idea of surrender. This idea of what what happens because my question was what happens about a little gettysburg. If it goes the other way well what happens is is the the capital surrounded the capital surrounded. It's possible that they could lose the war because general grant's forces were way too far away <hes> and you know the confederates were on a winning streak. There were real stakes of life and death in victory or defeat and so it was this question of surrender which i think kind of helps thrust stanton into into the final motif of what this this series about this promised to lincoln that i will that i will never give up never take the easy way out and i will not surrender is going to have huge echoes in this final episode of the stanton arc because all the stakes lie on this impeachment vote so let's talk about out this attempt to impeach andrew johnson well of course the founding fathers <hes> set up in the constitution parameters for ah the impeachment of a president but this is the first time that it's ever been brought to bear. Andrew johnson is the first president impeached in united states history. <hes> it really does pass the house. The articles are adopted. It really does go to the senate for trial. <hes> andrew johnson is acquitted. He's found not guilty of the charges against him. By one vote by one vote yes would again points back to the issue of who is doing the voting those southern states that have full voting rights are in are in on this vote and that was part of the reason that stanton was so adamant you know not that he necessarily saw impeachment on the horizon but he was like we're not going to put the country in the position that i think we need to be moving that he edwin stanton things. We need to be moving. If all of these southern states are brought back in with full voting rights and that in fact does does happen <hes> what are the other pieces of historical fact in this <hes> episode that again we use give a little creative license to the speech that being yeah makes <hes> which is very well done rob zinc you <hes> is <hes> is ba- about ninety percent his real words. The truth is that was his part of his closing argument meant but his closing argument lasted for like four days or something so <hes> we're we needed it dramatically to be at the beginning of the episode so i sort of co opted his closing speech and made it part of his like aac opening salvo i i could tell it was definitely historical but the user up of syllables there was some some eater of syllabi eater up of an eater eater of unconsidered trifles or whatever that's really said that so after that powerful and emotionally moving speech you have seen where where johnson it has taken in an interview with the reporter much to the sagren of his handlers and wells that you know again history imitates like oh no. We don't want you to do one on what we know what to do on interviews because there's no telling what you might say and he again kind of puts his foot in it again did this did. This interview actually happened. Yes a lot of interviews happened <hes> and and in the same way that that well's wasn't <hes> a part of the decision to fire stanton and replacing with renzo thomas wells was also not happy about the fact that johnson was was running his mouth to the press and the things that are in that scene which i think is really hilarious and very <hes> eh almost to the degree of being upsetting topical relevant <hes>. He called lorenzo thomas a drunk. He called him a quarrel gentleman. I mean his his basic point was i. Hey i added do anything. It's not my fault you know and you know getting angry with the reporter for asking questions about the man that he's personally selected for the yes that's right and and he he the line he says if i use any rough expressions they were put into my mouth on i. Enemies his thing he really said and that was in response to him speaking in a racist manner out on the road road when he was making these speech so in that interview johnson says he's not worried about the impeachment hearings at all. He thinks he's got it but we see in conversations with wells that it is in fact a very close thing thing we see in conversations with being that everybody knows it's down to one or two votes. What actually happens that. Now is the next question where where went the impeachment richman vote and again that feeling like we had in that opening scene of this is the eve of battle and we don't know which way this battles going to go there is a lot of real history in this episode that i was completely unaware of that happened in this time period and one big piece of that that is revealed as this is that they were troops amassed on both both sides leading up to this impeachment vote that we actually got very close to a second civil war basically because the sides were so polarized between stanton and johnson so that all tell tell me about what actually happened in terms of the militias and well you know there's a lot of conflicting information out there about it that what what is absolutely true is that the newspapers were reporting it so people believed it <hes> so we don't know. I don't think we actually one hundred percent now. The number of troops that were called up there were a lot of reports that we were on the verge of a civil war so whether or not stanton in johnson the real history of it actually did call up on johnson side the militias in on stanton side the standing army we don't know but we know the for the people of the time that the tribunal certainly had stakes were that large that severe and there's also a lot of <hes> information in here it is speculated upon <hes> one of those things that there's a lot of controversy swirling around this idea of of bribing votes bribing senators for votes <hes> information that i've done in my independent research the number one hundred and fifty thousand is there for a reason and that's because that's that's how much they they raised <hes> and actually according to david stewart who wrote a book about the impeachment. It was actually secretary seward. That was the one pulling the strings ondo rondo on this slush fund. That's one hundred fifty thousand dollars slow so he had fully jumped ship at that at that time as we see it takes place over the course of this episode that he loses face with with stanton in in in the least that research it was seward that was reacting all of this money so we don't actually know that the whole thing about seward finding out about about mary and then flipping and then him using that information to push senator ross over the edge we do that that didn't happen. I mean it's it's impossible that it did. That's our that's our invention and that's fiction but what we do know is that secretary seward was definitely one of the ones pulling the strings on the back door dealing and the vote buying efforts <hes> it it was it was seward it was treasury treasury secretary mccullough and postmaster general randall <hes> the three of them were the ones like from inside john johnson's cabinet that were raiding that slush fund wheeling and dealing yeah and raising that money from rich people in the south the way that we learned about that in this episode is that robert lincoln returns for a brief cameo yes again and will done <hes> stephen walters voice of robert lincoln but but what is that based upon well the they actually were on the anniversary of lincoln's death. They were erecting a statue not the lincoln memorial. It was a separate statute that was gonna be in front of city hall <hes> we were looking for a creative way to impart this information that there were these backdoor door dealings going on the johnson was trying to buy votes <hes> and once i found out about the statue in the dedication i was like roberts the perfect solution to this this thing especially because he's married married to mary heartland who is the daughter of a moderate republican. One of the people will probably be have been targeted with a slush fund. It makes a lot of sense that that would be somebody potentially yeah potentially weight and harland was upset because he was one of the cabinet members that left <hes> he was the secretary of interior <hes> left <hes> johnson's johnson's office in sixty six because of political differences and so he wasn't too happy with johnson and would have been happy to rat him out if he heard that those dealing got wind of that and and we just we just like hearing that robert finally got engaged in had a happy you another dominant but still like i feel bad for the guy with everything that happened with lucy so i'm glad that i'm glad that robert lincoln confound love so am i. There's there's also a lot of controversy around the last vote that may johnson acquitted <hes> senator under edmund ross of kansas. <hes> apparently was taking money from johnson. There's also people that say that he which to me is right on point with our story <hes> that this the senator did not want johnson to be replaced by a radical republican and and and was that benjamin wade benjamin wade who is the next next in line to be replaced. If he was was taken out so the impeachment the effort fails he stays in office. Johnson stays in office by one vote stanton his talked out of the barricade that he has made for himself off in the office and it kind of seems like all is lost also he doesn't get on the supreme court. Johnson was gonna put him on and doesn't do that. You know you assume that there was a last last minute bargain in the story and i think that's a really nice story point. We don't know that necessarily that was dangled in that moment now. In fact we know it wasn't because we know that johnson had had his ability to you. Nominate people to this report. Take it away from him by congress. Oh we have we think merrick garland was bad. The republicans this made it the at the time there were ten circuit courts southern route ten justices and they added one of the tenth one during the civil war that gave lincoln another another another justice but then they remove three justice from the court to make it a max of seven and there were nine living at the time when katrin died so basically you too more justice had to die before johnson could appoint anybody oh 'cause they if they win they pay lifetime appointments but when they pass those would not have been refills they said not not only are we not going to have hearings on the person you called forward but then they said we're not gonna hear hearings for him. We're also going to take away to more in case to more die okay. You're not getting them back. That's how committed we are to not letting johnson d._c. Eric republicans have been depriving presidents right to appoint supreme court justices since the eighteen sixty even when back when the republican party was on the same ideological side is stephen walters. He's not above using that against eric are chila in today's context and i love it and then once johnson was out of office they added to your back and and when did eventually really get his nomination by from ulysses grant who who who by that time had had grown very close to stanton grant started off on the other side of the political spectrum and through all of this time with johnson and stanton in the battle between them he kind of changed allegiance and grew very fond of stanton and to the point of giving him the supreme court spot and sadly. I believe it was five days right zurve live as before he passed he was never able to to sit on the bench yeah i after he was appointed five days later he died died. I think it's a it's a really poignant in kind of the obituary that we have in the in the episode kind of the wrap up on edmund stanton on. I think is really moving. What about some of the other characters. Tell me what happened for as well to langston for example langston story was one of the reasons why i think we chose him in the first place because he is the epitome of the repercussions of of stanton's failure to stop johnson and how the south rose up with the black codes and later the klu klux klan langston ran for congress later and was a member of the first group of black congressman to serve the united states and was the <hes> served for virginia genu- and first of all he wasn't even allowed to take his seat because they they fought it in court for about eighteen months and then once zi was finally able to sit. He sat for two years he and a group of i think it was four other black congressman. We don't see another black congressman an or senator for another fifty sixty years in the united states because of the ramifications of <hes> the south being empowered to who <hes> manipulate votes and scare voters away from polls and everything that stanton knew was going to happen if he didn't protect the friedman and then complete opposite side of the political spectrum and the spectrum privilege <hes> andrew johnson <hes> has a very active political life beyond his his <hes> tenure in the white house he becomes i believe the only sitting president to return to the united states senate <hes> it's kind of interesting with andrew your johnson because the man who stood with the north against secession becomes a traitor to his own people in the south was vilified for that decision ultimately becomes their hero and returns to tennessee a champion of the south 'cause <hes> he's honored with parades. He's beloved he's adored and he goes back to serve in the united states senate <hes> after his time in the white house to continue to fight for the the principles of the antebellum south. I guess it's it's because of when i grew grew up and the way that that was not palatable to the you know history book writers of of the seventies <hes> i don't ever remember hearing anything about andrew johnson i think he was he in the list of of good bad or indifferent presidents. I don't i don't ever remember hearing johnson even spoken kind of and so it was amazing to me to find out how impactful his presidency was that he was the first to be impeached that he had such a huge impact on the way reconstruction construction happened and then it's just not a topic i feel like in the back of my mind. I vaguely remember in middle school. Hearing that johnson awesome wasn't liked because he was too hard on the south. I honestly think i remember hearing that there but that was also that was also written about him. You know it was written about johnson that in the early days of his presidency that he was to punitive and that's in part because of the death of mary surat because he did in fact sign that execution order and chose not to spare her life but as time marches on and with the benefit of hindsight modern historians. I think pretty much all i mean you can't say all historians agree that that but i would say that most historians would probably put andrew johnson on the list of top five worst presidents. I think some would put him at the top of the list. I so you would perhaps show i have learned an awful lot over this process working with you guys wanna thank you guys for the history for the the the the lessons that you have taught me in the in the two years that we've been working on this and really the five years that i've been involved with the play and learning different pieces of this story so as we come to the end of this section of it. I wanna thank you for that. Thank you wanna remind everybody listening that there are episodes <hes> they are slightly. We different time line examining a different side of the story. We're gonna learn a lot more about the conspirators about john wilkes booth about what happened in that boarding boarding house that mary surat owned. We're going to hear some of those conversations. <hes> it's a it's a fascinating fascinating ride but as we are finishing up vis part of the story i want to get you guys kind of big picture takes on what have you learned and what sticks out to you. Now telling this story in two thousand eighteen about eighteen sixty five i would say personally as somebody who who tends to lean more conservative reading the words of the south and of people that are advocating for fighting for what they fought for during this reconstruction time it was very eye-opening to a lot of i think code rolling which that is still used. I don't think i i wouldn't say that. Modern people really understand that they're repeating the same things oftentimes that the that the south was saying at the time for example things like states right states rights states rights as code for i want to be able to own other humans but not even not even after that state's rights saying you can't take my property <hes> to help these people that we hel held in servitude for so long states rights that the congress shouldn't interfere fear with our lack of prosecution of these people in the things that we're doing to them. It was i opening <hes> and cut a broke. My heart a little bit yeah. The states' rights versus government overreach is one thing but states rights witnesses human rights is a very zephyr discussion and so not not to say that modern conservatives <unk> are wanting to reinstate the south and do all the horrible things that they were doing it just it. It may be kinda hone in on when i hear political conversations the some of those key words that have been repeated for so long on. I don't think it's true that every conservative wants to reinstate those things <music> but i do feel that there's a pretty strong argument to be made and i'm not even sure that you would have to argue it that there is a a rising tide you've white supremacy and white nationalism creeping into our culture and of course it's crept into our culture and into the global culture many points along the way not just in the eighteen sixties season time that predated it not just during jim crow not just during the black codes and not during the era leading up the civil rights. I mean it's it's come and gone in every civilization from you know mankind's inception. That doesn't make it any more palatable or just or acceptable would you would you say that there is a rising tide of it or a acceptability ability of it that allows people to shout less hopely hidden yeah that that was the thing. They always say. They're emboldened. It seems like i in in this moment in two thousand eighteen that people seem away more free to say the terrible things that they're thinking. I don't know that there's necessarily more of them thinking that but they're certainly seemed to be more free and willing to todd said it before earlier in a couple of our talk backs but it is. It's been weird through this process that as we've been writing it current events have been happening that mere what we're doing and when we were getting into i think starting the the podcast processes went all the confederate statutory came up and the tearing down of the confederate statues or should they stay in the lost. Cause conversation was like deep into what we're researching and talking about an it's just happening now. How how the podcast has time to that conversation well and there are a multitude of historical aspects of this story story that resonate today and that ring true today but in the sort of big picture sense the part of it to me that resonates the most is that words matter and people in positions of power through their words 'cause other people to behave in certain certain ways. It's like that old. Saying attitude is reflective of leadership. I believe that's true <hes>. I think that you know it's it's a dishonest argument to say that you know a president can say something and be the cause of something happening. It's not that simple but certainly when a man or woman in a position in a power speaks to those who look to them for leadership in a certain way that is devoid of humanity or devoid of any sort of historical perspective perspective or devoid of any recognition of of their own privilege and blessings that have been heaped upon them absolutely that pollutes our culture and absolutely pollutes heard discourse and that's been the biggest awakening to me. I said early on and i think one of the the first of these episodes i said it's like battle star galactica all of this has happened before and all of it will happen again in what i can't figure out is the fact that we keep repeating this this vicious cycle certainly the arc is bending towards justice. I'm not such a cynic that i don't believe that things are are getting better but as we keep repeating the same cycles of destructive behavior when i can't tell is is that a good thing or a bad thing. Do i take comfort in the the fact that we've had worser times when i compare them to today. I don't know i don't know that i do. I don't know that it's a comforting thought for me. I think maybe it's not on a comforting thought that we haven't learned as much as we think we have learned. Well i speaking of what we've learned from from this process and this this inside the episode arc in episode one inside the episode we talked about this is a question of stanton and does the and justify the means he did a lot of things for in in what some everyone listening to this can make their their own opinion but somewhat agree. He did things for the right reasons but he did a lot of things that we could say were wrong and the mistakes were made so so big picture as you guys look back on this fascinating fascinating human being who had a huge impact on american culture and who has been widely forgotten. What is your wrap up on stanton. I believe that this is a non answer in a way because i don't think i can answer that question but what i will says this in our political discourse as we look to history to be guided as we look to what's happening today and hold the mirror up to ourselves into into the world that we live in the society that we live in what is absolutely required for each and every one of us as americans is radical empathy including for those with which we disagree that is what i believe and maintaining a certain standard our standard on ourselves of what is right and just not <hes> <hes> looking the other way when our party is committing atrocities or breaking the law bending the law <hes> just because it's politically expedient for us yeah yeah. You know it's interesting too that inside of eighteen sixty five there is this constitutional crisis right. There is the president wants. That's one thing and there's congress wants another thing and that's because our constitution is imperfect. It's a flawed document. It's contradictory in many respects right well congress. Their job is to control the purse strings and their job is to pass laws present. His job is to enforce those laws but the president's job is also to protect the country so what happens when all those things don't line up what happens when those things are in conflict with one another. The answer is well. If the president steps over the line he can be impeached. I and we have this imperfect flawed process to self correct for the institutions to self correct and for the powers checks and balances inside the separation empowers to to route those problems out but it's an imperfect system and it's a flawed system and it requires all of us as participants in democracy to do what eric just said which is to be consistent right yeah to hold to hold everyone to the same standard even if the people that we agree with where we don't agree exactly and the other the other thing to remember is that people are flawed and except except for eric except for me <hes> people flawed yeah they are and what what system of government better protects us from flawed human beings than democracy what form of government better suits <music> humanity in the flawed people that we are then to give a billion checks and balances on each other and make people fight for that power in a way that's messy and <hes> imperfect but at the same time prevents someone from just taking over and being a totalitarian well and it's only you know and where things get really complicated or when the mechanisms of those checks and balances and the mechanisms of our institutions cushions and the mechanisms of power are weaponized against human equality. That's where things you know what i mean matters of justice that's where things get really sticky in our country though but i think our framers very smart and the fact that they made it so complicated and made the power so distributed between three branches of government and even then congress who supposed to create law they have to separate houses and it's messy and they have to agree with each other and you're forcing using a bunch of imperfect people to make the most perfect form of government we can i think is we is the country continues to evolve. You know one of the questions it will have to ask. Ask ourselves is is are we living up to the highest ideals of the intention of the founders and i think you know sadly when you look back at the eighteen sixties obviously obviously we weren't you know we went to war. We killed each other and in the aftermath and i think this is something that links and says in that last speech you know the south lost the war on the battlefield only to win it in its bloody aftermath and i think that you know there's there's a lot of truth to that statement. Well the other thing that i wanted to bring up. Just as a kind of a final wrap up is that it was amazing to me that the issues issues that led to the civil war and then that were fought over in this story the things that were settled the things that specifically were not settled came back in throughout the entire growth period came back in the nineteen sixties and equal rights and then are now back still with us today and that the actions yes we can talk about huge mechanisms and policies and government documents constitutions but the actions of a few individuals individuals can have such a huge impact on such a long swath of our history and that will bring us to the booth episodes because the action of one individual title preceded potatoes all our country because we had an opportunity to fix the sin of slavery at that time and the country could have been monumentally different if lincoln had been in office and he and stanton had worked to inactive the change that they were wanting me being slightly more of a cynic than you. I don't know that any human being could have stopped what the south was attempting to do. In the wake of the civil war but what i will concede to you is that if there was one man that could have done it. It is absolutely abraham lincoln yeah yeah i think just in terms of of of his already position in history at that time his political power his his his the power of his personality personality in that moment was such something that edwin stanton just did not have he was not popular in any were he was not likeable was not likeable. He was not a the people he was not a man of the people in any way and so again it's a perfect set of eric as you said because the actions of edwin stanton and and this story which have been fascinating so thank you guys again for bringing it to light and to sound i guess is that a thing for bringing it to voice sure putting voice to you put voice to it and i appreciate it <hes> but there's another side of this story that we haven't heard anything about and that is the side of the story that we're going to explore the conspirators. Here's what happened with booth kind of the territory of the very first play that you guys wrote around this that now got abandoned when you fell in love with edwin stanton as a character but you've gone back in and giving us great episodes on this conspiracy and i am very excited to hear it and that's actually one of the therapeutic things that's happened through. The podcast hard cast is that all of these scenes that because it's hard when you're writer to take a character he wrote in ripped him out of play or take a scene that you love and ripped him out of a play play for me. Let's see we we miss those things and of course the cool thing is through this process a lot of that stuff that outward bound up on the cutting room floor ended up used or that is a great place for us to start when we come back for the inside the episode episode fourteen. Thank you guys thanks for being with us through this incredible journey for listening to this story of edwin stanton for getting us to hear all of you who have listened to this far don't miss episode fourteen and then as soon as you're done done with it. Come right over here to the inside the episode and find out more about how it all came together. I'm rob mccallum with stephen walters and eric chila as always thank you to stephen walters. Thanks all of you for listening. We will talk to you after episode fourteen and if you'd like to support this kind of storytelling and ensure that we can continue tin. Tell more stories like these supporters at patriot dot com slash eighteen sixty five members there get advanced access to episodes bonus features free copy of the soundtrack album. That's patriot dot com slash eighteen sixty five. I'm rob mccallum. Thanks for listening to eighteen sixty five inside the <music>.
"Telegram, April fifteenth eighteen sixty five Abraham. Lincoln died this morning at twenty two minutes after seven o'clock Christ almighty, we are in the middle of a cool Marceau, finding secure the vice president now right away, sir booth, the act. He's involved in this mess with Lincoln dawn, who will hold the south accountable. There is no one left, major. Only this office in those command, you and I are something of an arranged marriage Stanton. I didn't choose you. And you didn't choose me. I don't know if Johnson's a bumbling fool or something much more insidious, that man is no ABRAHAM LINCOLN. He's dangerous. Andrew Johnson is complicit murderer of ABRAHAM LINCOLN, Mr President, Edwin Stanton has an agenda. I'm going to force Lincoln's reconstruction policy down Johnson's throw clan, as a Trojan force. Mr president. What's waiting inside the people won't blood, Mr President. I'm going to give it to them with without your support. Mr President, it confounds me. You can't see what's happening right under your very new. And no, which a problem problem, you're supposed to have on the control. This is from the prison. I know what it is major direct order from president Lincoln, no one can know about this secretary stand guy. Did he? Rush. I wear until every loyalists. So the general refuses to stand down as this rated until the will of the southern 'cause it's crushed beneath our feet until the head of Jefferson Davis deliver to me on a spike. No quarter will be given. They have killed our bring me head. Eighteen sixty five as Stoorikhel fiction podcast premiering, June. Eighteenth everywhere podcasts are found. Find out more at eighteen sixty five podcast dot com.
Inside the Episode: S2E01
"There's something so exciting about the start of a new season and although the world still a little sideways you've got to love the idea of starting fresh with a few things that'll bring you comfort. That's where brooke linen comes in brooklyn and makes the most amazing luxury sheets without the luxury markup. They do this by working directly with manufacturers to ensure premium high-quality comfort at a fraction of the retail price. I've got of their luck hardcore sheets in white. They're like slipping into a cloud and they get more comfortable with each wash. They've also got ridiculously soft towels in lounge wear and with their birthday sale this weekend. Brooklyn and is offering wide savings on all things comfort for their biggest sale of the year. Get everything you need for a spring refresh during brooklyn's biggest sale of the year shop the brooklyn and birthday sale going on right now. And if you're listening to this podcast after the sale lens. Don't worry you can still go to brooklyn dot com and use promo code. Want to get twenty dollars off any purchase of one hundred dollars or more that's b. r. o. k. l. i n. e. n. dot com and enter promo code one to get twenty dollars off any purchase of one hundred dollars or more brooklyn everything. You need to live your most comfortable life. Welcome back to inside the episode eighteen sixty five. It is so good to be back. This is rob mccollum warning the producers of eighteen. Sixty five joining me as always stephen. Walters and eric are chiller our creative team guys. It's been so long welcome back. Hey did anything happen while we were. I think there was some new stuff. I was checking in a lot of other. Podcasts blacked out. I have no idea what happened. It was good to see your face today. Yes yes the first time in a very long time that we have all seen each other in person even though we are recording Still remotely in separate In separate booths right now. We had hoped to bring you at least a portion of the season last year And then with covert that that became untenable and impossible but now we are back in recording and i just wanted to thank everybody who has listened and made this show quite the phenomenon. Eric what are we up to. Now we're up to three point. Five million downloads counting. And that's pretty remarkable for show that only has sixteen episodes. So it's it's pretty awesome. That's great yeah. I just want to say that you know we make this show for the listeners When we first made it we didn't even know if we have any listeners. So it's really cool to know that we do so. Thank you to everybody who listened to the show and we hope you enjoy season to the story of ulysses s grant. Yeah that's actually a good segue for a steve because with season one. We had no idea that this was going to get any kind of of public reaction. We had no idea we were going to make a season two so we made some choices in terms of how to structure and bottle that story so that it very much was the stanton arc impeachment now when you guys were faced with the topic of how to move this story forward and where it was going to go from there. How did you approach where you wanted to start and move into season two. Well yeah i mean you touched on it. Rob but You know. Eric is early conversations about what we wanted to do. It was obvious that we wanted to tell the larger story of reconstruction and general grant seemed like the best character for that But we did feel like it was important for our listeners For you know for our folks to know a little bit more about who grant was a political figure in washington You after the civil war and what. His relationship was to edwin stanton johnson's impeachment. And we felt that the best way to do that was to flash back yes so before we could approach season two. We basically had to untie this knot that we had made originally. We thought we were closing the door on the story we had to finish out. The arc of edwin stanton a satisfying way for the audience. And now that we're making a season two. We had to find a way to untie that not. That was a big challenge that we had we had set up the that we were going to tell for season two so steve came up with this really incredible way to approach new ground through. This flashback idea with charles dickens. You know. I think it's probably interesting for the audience. This this cold open right. The scene between You know stanton and charles dickens and what what that's all about I can tell you that You know when i stumbled upon that information i was just my mind was blown. I couldn't believe that. In the middle of the impeachment kerfuffle that edwin stands and actually sat down and dinner charles dickens and when i read dickens account of it how dickens described stance is being a superfan essentially somebody that knew his own work better than he did and could quote it all from memory. I was just like when i when i heard this. We had already written season. One and i was like i hope the opportunity to use it. Well what i stumbled across. Is that win. That event took place in the time line was right in the middle of general. Grant's story as it relates to the impeachment. I don't want to give too much away. But you'll see this play out over the next few episodes of before we get into grant's presidency But it happens at a very very interesting moment in time. Line and eric. You guys didn't stumble upon this this factoid until we'd already finished season one right or we're in the midst of it. Yeah steve read Walter stars book. That mentioned dickens. But i was going to say. Obviously grant is very important to the story of what's happening and we skip a large portion of history in the first season. Because we we had to have. That conversation is going to be in this season or not. When imbo we decided to focus mainly on stanton story we pretty much skipped in the entire section of the impeachment was. Yeah we tip our hats to it. Though eric do in the in the in season one lorenzo thomas. I offered the job by andrew johnson. He says we already offered it to grant he turned you down. That's a very very Sort of distill description of what happened. General grant actually played a central role in that but we didn't have the time to cover it. What's great about these first. Few episodes is that they almost serve as something of a preamble or log. That's really the way. I think of them Episodes one two and three are the prologue of grant story. Yes so it really worked out well to kind of bottle up all of grant and how he is relevant to the story to now. When we're we're beginning to introduce grant who grant is and dickens really open the door to be able to go back until that story in a really really cool way. But i also love the we get to spend a little more time with the impeachment. We of course led up to it and dealt with it and use that as part of our climax for the foreseen but the country as a whole right now has spent a couple of years learning a whole lot more about impeachment than any one probably knew prior to the last two years. So i love that this. This bit of flashback. I three episodes allows us to kind of dive into the decisions to impeach window. Impeach impeach. those kind of questions because You know that's such a timely issue in the recent history of the country. That's been one of the really incredible things about working on the show is even we talked about it last season as we were writing and they were having the talk about confederate statues and that our show was so relevant. And even since we've finished season one our show continues to be so incredibly relevant and when you enter. Johnson is trending on twitter. We know we've honed in on the right story. Well i think it's relevant because the nature of american politics is cyclical you know. I think jokingly said during the inside the episodes last season it's like battle star galactica. All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again. And that's true. And i think we're even going to see more of that. Play out in the parallels between president grants and president biden There are some similarities. Because both of them were you know sort of social social progressives of their time entering into a political environment where on the heels of populace president who was impeached in the middle of a national crisis. So there's you know there's there's gonna be a lot of parallels baked into the sort of american system and the idea that that he's expressing the desire for for Unity is something. We're going to hear a lot more about also just because eric mentioned it. If you're not following andrew. Johnson real andrew johnson on twitter and social media. I suggested highly. Stanton and andrew. Johnson have twitter pages that we think rather entertaining is great. I think at robins probably also were talking about that grants although we're talking a lot about him in this inside the episode. He has not yet appeared in the story. Grant is Looms large over reconstruction both in the you know the pages of history and in our story and we're kind of dangling that carrot a little bit and i just wanna tell the listeners a spoiler alert we will. We will get to meet him very very soon. One of the people we do get to meet in this episode. Is charles dickens. I love these restaurant scenes. I think it's so charming. You know your consideration of what this actual conversation that we know really did happen. You're imagining of what it was. And i love the actor. Who's been cast as charles dickens. His name is david charleston. He is a a an established theatre actor in london Trained and does an amazing job and he really enjoyed his got in and took some real time with this character. And i think they're really charming. Seen so i'm i'm happy that we're getting to share them with folks now. It's just one of those historical facts. It's just it's you couldn't make it up. I mean why would you right. It's one of those strange things for the pages of history. That just sort of jumped out. When i first saw it and like i said it really does sort of bring. The flashback story together. And i think a really cool way that you'll see unfold over the next Three episodes so one of the other new characters we meet after the kind of the framing device of the of the conversation with dickens was back into the you know the machinations of congress and the and the kind of warring factions and. That's where we get to hear from cooper cooper who is Played by blake. Heckler a brilliant dallas stage actor and and yale trained but Cooper is a really interesting character and we're going to hear more from him. Tell me about cooper. Yeah so cooper was one of andrew johnson's top aides and lieutenants And was really i think. A sort of defacto. A decamp Throughout the impeachment proceeding He ultimately rises to a prominent position in the johnson. Administration is pretty integral to To johnson's journey their their old time friends are both from tennessee. They they share a friendship. They share an ideology. They are both what i would describe as as modern day in modern day terms bigots They both are proponents of states rights. Proponents of ending reconstruction of pardoning the south and of delivering on On the promises that have have been made. And we're we're sort of getting into some You know complicated territory with cooper in that we are making reference to some accusations against andrew. johnson Some of which we can't know whether they're true or not true. You know the the extent to which johnson perhaps engaged in bribery exchanged You know Pardons for for favors in political favors. We can't really know the full extent of that. That's one of the things that one of the many things that congress was investigating johnson. Four one of those relevant things that we talk about when we talk about the the modern impeachment we just dealt with was the conversation of you know it. If you're going to impeach the president how do you go about it. And that's one of the things we'll get into like what proved to the have. The the other thing that that is really important about cooper is that it's it's laying the track for not only johnson. Leave us in in terrible conditions in this country in in race relations but also he opened the door supposedly to a lot of corruption which will be a huge factor in the in the story of season. Two as it continues to play itself out you. I think it's interesting that one of the things that johnson was impeached for were his words he made some pretty inflammatory statements about congress and those statements got him in a lot of trouble. And you know it caused it. You know after we stanton says in the cold open that you know the story really begins with the civil rights bill of eighteen sixty six and you know in response to this. You know massive social progress. That's happening the reconstruction. Congress is pushing johnson wields his his his veto power. Like a shotgun. Congress overrides him. And then you have this sort of constitutional crisis where the president is not really enforcing the laws of congress and at the center of all of that is the fate of the friedman. But it's johnson's words that i get him in trouble. I think he actually suggests dismantling the congress. The thirty ninth. Congress calls them an illegitimate body because they did not let the southern governments be seated. Because of course the south was still under military occupation. So it's a very very messy time historically and politically Very complex and johnson was uniquely. Ill equipped and ill suited to the to the task at hand yet. Call them usurper and dictator and on his his swing around the circle tour. He said some pretty inflammatory things about congress Calling for the hanging of that stevens. Yeah yeah and basically saying that. The fourteenth amendment which guaranteed citizenship was illegitimate as well because the south did not participate in it. Will you mentioned that stevens eric. That's another character that we get to to hear a little bit here One of the you know great fighters for the cause now at the end of his run. We hear him as even mentioned this episode that he he suspects he only has a year or so to live and he's gearing up for his last fight and stanton is is as he is want to do always urging people to take a bigger role than they are comfortable making and he is. He is coming down on the side of caution in that that stevens was probably the i would say. It's fair to say the the the head the father of the radical republican faction and was a true believer in the cause and put his beliefs into action. He was actively involved in the underground railroad and black liberation. And he really. He really put his His words into action he's played by One of my favorite actors john tyson. Who is a time acting company member at the alley theatre in houston. We actually did a play together. Historical drama about lbj called all the way. That's where i first met john. And he's a fantastic actor. He's retired now and so he. He came out of retirement to To give us his gifts he's he's what my favorite part about his acting. And i think you hear it in. His voice is that he has it a tremendous amount of vulnerability but also gravitas at the same time his portrayal. If that is lovely and and you know in our version of fatty is you know he. He is aware of the fact that his believe he says. My sanzar nearly run. He says that in the series at some point maybe episode one. What he's referring to is that he knows he's gonna die and he's palpably aware that this might be his last act and because the stakes are so high. In the friedman hang in the balance he wants to get it right. He wants to win. And that's what unites him with edwin stanton. He doesn't always agree with stanton methodology. But they share a common purpose one of the things that they are very concerned about an eric mentioned it. This this Swing around the circle. In andrew. Johnson is going around the country actively campaigning which was unheard of. At that time it was who could believe that a president would actively campaign for his reelection. That's so beneath the office at this time in history. And it's this is where grant first drawn into the story. This is true you know. Basically johnson uses grant like a political prop. He grant is the general in chief at that time and Johnson takes him onto her with him. And parades around and grant is is forced to deliver these speeches we. We chose to keep grant out of the story at this moment because we i wanted to set up that grant is really in the story. He's going to be caught between a hammer and an anvil. The hammer is edwin. Stanton the and villas andrew johnson and this is the beginnings of that the swing around the circle's were grant was horrified at at the swing around the circle tour. He he wrote to his wife. Julia this is a quote. I have never been so tired of anything. Before is i have been with political stump. Speeches of mr johnson. I look upon them as a national disgrace. That tells you a lot about you. Know who general grant was is a as a man and as a political figure but it also tells you a lot about how you felt about injured. Johnson stanton wants to capitalize on. That stanton is trying to bring a grant into the fold. Of course grant wants nothing to do with politics as we hear from from several the other characters talking so that also let's meet another character that stands in goes to in an effort to try to woo grant and that is ellie parker Grants aide decamp. Tell me about another real from history. So ill he is the chief of a a a member of tribes he You know is is one of. Grant's top aides most trusted advisers and most loyal friends. Yes ille- parker was actually at abbott and helped draft the surrender terms ends one of grant's closest friends and advisors and when lee walked in and he was shaking hands with all of the union leadership he refused to shake his hand because he thought he was a mulatto And then when he found out that he was a native american he actually Shook his hand and said i'm glad to see there's at least one real american here to which parker. Very graciously responded. I think we're all religions here. Yeah we are all americans here general which i think is a little too gracious more gracious than i would have certainly but elliot's a big role to play In this story we won't get to it until to the meat of it until much much later. But he rises to a position of prominence in the grant administration he becomes the head of the indian affairs bureau which is a massive government agency inside the of the interior. And he he. He's an interesting historical figure because he's he's a man caught in two worlds. He is a chief of his people. He's also a you. Know a colonel in the military and a high ranking government official at one point you know he wants peace. That's what he desires. Peace for both countries He understood that you know the indian tribes needed protection from the white settlers just as much if not more than vice versa and so easily sought to you know him and grant both sought to pursue policies that established peace to try to to get the tribes onto reservations which is a messy problematic issue because there are nomadic people and forcing them to stationary reservations. Put them in an untenable position where they could not survive so big road to haul ahead of him in this in this journey. Well it also just underscores the idea that it's not just the friedman who are in danger but also the The native american population. The united states is also hanging in the balance. Yes and we're gonna have massive westward expansion continuing all the way through the eighteen sixties and the railroads being constructed in the face of the country is changing and sadly the native american tribes are left out and driven out violently. So stanton's gotta get grant on his side and so he uses ille- parker to do that and I i want to read from the letter. That stanton wrote to congressman ashley. He said there is indeed danger ahead the most serious thing being that johnson and grant as you put it quote suck from the same quill quote. The president has for more than a year put forth president a persistent effort to capture grant for purposes. That are unmistakable. he is in a measure succeeded. But i firmly believe that the head of the army's cannot ultimately be corrupted so stanton believed that grant in his true hearts was on the right side and was going to try to pull him over to to the right side of history. But i think what i think was important about this episode. The reason we wanted to keep grant of it and not hear his voice in it is because it was just as important. I think for our listeners to understand what our characters had to say about him before he became a character because i think what a lot of people think of who who know about general grant thank is well. He's a republican. You know it was lincoln and then there is maybe this other guy that we don't know too much about johnson and then this other republicans general grant the hero of app mathematics but grant was not a political creature. He was not a tried and true republican. He certainly at this time of the store of history not a radical republican or anything close to it and never really was and in fact he had only voted in one presidential election and that was for james buchanan so he was in the eyes of a lot of washington a democrat and so there was this real question about where he was going to land politically. And that's why i said earlier. The hammer in the ville grants gonna find himself in between a rock and a hard place and it also just underscores how big a hill stanton has to climb which is set right at the end of the episode. His goal is to try to somehow figure out how to get grant to run against johnson in the upcoming presidential election. So lots of runway has been laid for us with these first episodes as we're moving out of the prologue. And into the meat of season two really happy with these prologue episodes. I hope you all have enjoyed being back into the swing of eighteen sixty five. Yeah thank you for following us through season one and Jumping into season two with us. We're so lucky to have all of you listening. Thank you. thank you rob all right eric. And steve as always thank you for being here. Thank all of you. For listening. Tune in to episode two of our prologue episodes. And then check back in here with the inside the episode. And if you'd like to help us out and also get some additional goodies. Please become a patron at patriotair dot com slash eighteen sixty five podcast members get exclusive content early access ad free listening and lots more. We're always looking for more ways to give back to our patriot community so please become one yourself at patriotair dot com slash eighteen. Sixty five podcast. Thank you for listening. Eighteen sixty five is an airship production. This episode was hosted by me. Rob mccollum produced by. Eric are chila theme music by lindsey. Graham you sure to tune in for the next episode of inside the episode eighteen sixty five.
1865 Returns September 17th | 13
"Hey there Lindsey Graham here executive producer of eighteen sixty five with a quick message with episode thirteen. The Story of Edwin Stanton is finished but there are still three more episodes to come a sort of miniseries prequel the tells the story of John Wilkes booth radicalization and his journey from well regarded regarded actor to notorious assess these episodes starts September seventeenth taking a short break this week so until then thank you all for listening for reviews reviews on Apple podcast elsewhere. Thank you for engaging with us on facebook and twitter and thank you especially for those who have supported us at eight hundred sixty five podcast dot com if you've been enjoying it in sixty five please consider making a monthly five dollar pledge or one time gift of any amount at eighteen sixty five podcast dot com eighteen sixty five might be close to finish your support now makes our next storytelling adventure even more possible thank you.
Inside the Episode | 16
"Hello and welcome to eighteen sixty five inside the episode. This is rob mccollum one of the producers on eighteen sixty five and joining the for this final inside the episode Erica Chila and Steve Walters blue. Hello Welcome back. I say back because we recorded a majority of these inside the episodes many many months ago when we were finishing up the the the actual episodes themselves and now we we took some time away they have now gone. Live people have been listening. We've been getting feedback getting to hear them out in the world so it's Kinda Nice to come comeback and have a little perspective on this thing as not a potential thing but an actual thing. Did you guys ever think we were going to get to this point no I I still don't believe it but workaholic as like. Where do we go next. Yes do time. I'm not ready to answer that question there. Speaking of the the time before we dive into this final bonus episode that that hopefully everyone has just heard and has always I will say if you have not listened to episode sixteen do so now there will be spoilers listened to that I then come back to us and we will. We will dive into that final episode in just a minute but but big picture. Let's talk about what it took to get there. They're in the recording process to this final episode and also to get here to this point when it is out and live and in the world. It's been a long time. What is the total time you would say since you. We started it was fourteen years ago. Is that right housing to is really when we started two thousand and three was when we read for the the reading of the end of the year so that's it's like seventeen years a long time but but almost none of the original play booth made its way into the podcast. I think almost nothing I I think the only seen close is the hail. You're not to date my daughter seen although I that's one of the only that's even remotely has any. I I think I think you're right. I think that might have been the only one which is bizarre to think about well. We've gotten here now. Let's let's start talking about the episode so that we have just heard which I I love that it is the final thing that we are hearing because it brings us full circle with our bonus episodes up into the the last moment before the entire series begins so talk about where we find John Wilkes booth and Lucy at the very beginning of this episode okay so his kidnapping plot has failed and this was his chance to go after the president this is when Johnston and a lot of the conspirators back out and actually we have the documentation of Samuel Laughlin or Samuel Arnold and Michael Laughlin are composite character then backing out and saying we're out. We won't no longer longer to be a part of this because the I guess the planning was poor and Surat as we assume now that they've been seen in public together probably not a good idea for them continue this this group and everything falls apart and John's left by himself and and then as we'll see in the final episode things grow more desperate as the south is slowly losing its ground and in growing closer to yeah the the causes is is dying as he sees it as well as his stature within the the CSS he's kind of in but not really legitimate and seems like he's really seeking that legitimacy is that that purely a artistic license that you guys took her is that based on some research based on all the research we've done it. It seems like he was not a full fledged member but he was was seeking recognition from them and money from them and Saragan is the the tied to the CSS assists for him and without Surat now now he's gotTa take matters into his own hands and this is really the episode where we see him. Take that last step towards radicalization Zeh Shen to take that last step toward truly becoming and fulfilling his monstrous destiny that of course precipitates the the entire first thirteen episodes of our series and the the event that that does precipitate that that that most historians tend to agree with is hearing Lincoln's last speech where Lincoln has the audacity to talk about suffrage allowing Friedman to vote and there are multiple accounts booth with saying after he heard the speech by God that is the last speech that man will ever make it's also worth noting for the fans of the show or the folks who have listened up until this point right there was someone else in our show who was in the audience that day in the crowd that day and that was John Mercer Langston. He was standing not too far away from John. Wilkes booth when when Lincoln made eight that comment and of course there's a reference to that in the first Langston seem in the play which actually ended up getting cut in on the cutting room floor it went away but originally it said I said I had such high hopes having heard his last speech when he made the appeals for citizenship and equality and the now this horrific occurrence has has has has happened. It's just interesting that they were both there at the same time because that was the first time that Lincoln had ever mentioned suffrage and and then he died four days later so there were several things that that I really liked about this episode some of them were that they were scenes we had heard the other side of a little bit later the the the final exchange between both and Lucy that Robert Walked on the episode kind of about Roberts Pov of that or point of ear on that we hear that now from booth and and Lucy's standpoint and then they're also when they are in the barn and being called by the soldiers to come out and then their bodies are brought out we hear kind of the aftermath of that that moment that we heard just a snippet of before so I like these things that reference back to themselves and hopefully that will encourage you to go back and listen to the whole thing again well. I guess it is a little bit of artistic license that Robert and booth both Saul each other or ran into each other with Lucy present but we do know that that Lucian Robert Presumably had a Spanish lesson that day day. I believe yes and we allegedly it's. It's it's been said John Wilkes Booth's final words to Lucy where the line from hamlet hamlet inlet sense to a few Leeann Anthony Oregon's all my sins remembered and that's that's allegedly what he said to her on that day so we sorta just took the license of combining those two sort of factoid it also it is said that Robert was originally supposed to go to the Ford with his father and then he backed out so we were trying to put those together and drama tile together back right so what are some of the things to happen in this episode that you think we should one thing it entirely is the journey booth goes on in those twelve days before he dies and and a couple of the scenes that ended up on the cutting room floor were scenes of him on the manhunt which we originally had in the play while they pursue while they're being pursued first thing he does is he goes to the Surat Tavern and he asks for the guns this is one of the things they marry hung eventually because she's the the one that that that morning Sun brought the gun several days earlier and then she showed up that morning with a bag with field glasses and said have the guns ready and well allegedly allegedly big there many people to believe she did not say dad and this Mr Loyd person who worked for her yeah renting. The tavern learned that he made that up because they were putting pressure on him so it's a little bit unclear where the truth lies badly but it is yes. That is the thing that really push it over the the edge. That's the first place he went and then. Where did he go from their from their doctor mud's to get his leg set. The broken leg is really what did him in because the description that this man was on these two men were on the run one had a broken leg is the thing that the damned made it really clear who these two guys might beat so it was anything worse after he shouted out six portrayed as he left up off the balcony when he landed on the stage. He broke his leg in hobbled off into the alley outback. I know we talked earlier earlier. In in one of the early episodes that that Stanton was asking for a huge bounty for information leading to did did that get collected. Did people provide that information yeah well. The way it really paid off is that all of these soldiers joined in this manhunt because they all wanted to cash in on the bounty and so there was a massive manhunt for him. It was at the time the largest manhunt in United States history yes and so everybody was looking for him and he probably would have stayed at mud house longer but mud went into town unheard what he had done allegedly and he wanted booth out of their kicked booth out booth fled of from leaving a boot that had J. W. You be in it under the bed from where he doctored his leg. which is what ended up damning? Dr Mud next place he went was a Colonel Samuel Cox who hit him in the forest list for five days and then they tried to cross the Potomac they ended up going the wrong way and landed back in Maryland instead of Virginia crossed over and then he found that the people were very unsympathetic to him and were unwilling to help him and so it was kind of when he was in that five day stay he was seeing newspapers and things things did not go the way he planned. He was expecting to be heroes that he was going to be a hero and so the bounty didn't necessarily help out in his capture it was more the public turn against him that that stop people from helping him and then he ended up at the Garrett farm and the we we lead up to that last moment where booth his his shot in the barn by Corvee who we talked about crazy Boston core bay and then there they drag out to the porch and he's dying saying and he utters those last words which are less useless and some some people now insinuate maybe he said Lucy Lucy and they misheard him but I I think since they were talking about lifting his hands in his arms not working that it was probably useless useless and then talk about the the final monologue that we here in the in the podcast which is I think from his journal. It is from his journal. I believe it's his last journal entry. you know and I think it's his. It's John Wilkes booth that is lowest moment. It's when he realized that you know whatever sort of grandeur he thought he would achieve whatever sort of status he thought he would achieve it had all fallen apart and and he was alone and in the original version of the play that was a moment of self reflection for Edwin Stanton because it was stanton that sort of discovered booths journal Journal and read those words and kind of Saul's a little bits and pieces of himself inside of a booths words you know sort of the idea was that booth luth doing what he did and Stanton's desire for vengeance had kind of pushed him over the edge to become a monster now in the podcast we don't we don't have that theatrical experience but I think those ideas are still at play and if you are so inclined listening back through what Edwin Stanton Journey is right on the heels of Episode Sixteen Sixteen. I think you might see some of that a little bit more presently yeah we had actually talked about whether or not these bonus episodes the conspirators episodes should go at the beginning to go in the middle middle underneath it somehow spread out through and I'm actually really happy that we ended up with the idea of let's tell Stanton's journey all the way through and and then and then step aside and do and do the conspirators because it is kind of a separate but related story and of course booth at that time thinks that not only is is his journey ended but the causes completely lost and that all of the things he was hoping to achieve in the south would be lost and then it turned out that those changes that he was so afraid of did not happen that the forces that motivated him also motivated a whole lot of other people. It's interesting that we've we've had so much monument talk in in recent times here but especially in Texas we've been having a lot but all across the country but clearly a lot of the things that happened in the confederacy remained a lot longer than than booth feared yet if he did not get any personal gain from what he did he certainly served the cause of protecting the way he viewed the south from Stanton's Stanton's vision of the institution of slavery. It's interesting that the bulk of confederate monuments and our country were erected in the late nineteenth century and then there was another influx in nineteen twenty and the nineteen twenties and then again in the nineteen sixties during the civil rights era so it's interesting that if those three very specific inflection points that's the moment where we start to see a rise in these monuments being erected and of course in the late late twenties leading into the thirties you have a rise of populism. UPI lissome and nationalism in the United States and of course in Europe which of course leads to be on the Kaiser Adolf Hitler but you see that reflected at that time and that place and then each of those moments of inflection and we're talking about the confederate statues going up you we also have a in the nineteen twenties and thirties when they're raising statues the naming of schools after confederate generals. I myself went to Robert e Lee high school and the Mascot was the rebels and and it's just so preposterous to me that we as a country allowed the honoring of people who committed treason against our country and and now thankfully there's a big push to change a lot of those school names to take down statues that were honoring these people. That's my personal opinion because they weren't historical things they weren't put there in the time is history was put afterward for people that are trying to change the narrative of what happened in to. Romanticize the South and an honor these these people who'd committed treason I went through the southwest high school in Fort Worth and we were the rebels as well up until the point that we changed our mascot to the raiders which isn't too much better but I guess it's an improvement. They did the same with us. You are you serious. You're the Red Raiders. Wow that is insane well. The reason that are is eventually changes because the people of color at our school had enough one day and there was an incident when somebody had put a rebel flag on the projection screen so the Laura goes I wasn't there before my time but that resulted in a violent altercation and so it was changed but see I actually even the lure I question i. I wonder if it was violent at all. You know but that's just the way it's been still way. It's been told yeah by by the powers that be that wanted to be told that way again as as this as this has all highlighted I think the the stories that get told her often far more powerful than the reality of what happened in any given situation and it's it's sad that we get accused of trying to change history now when the entire reason that these statues are up was an effort to change history but there's this big push rush to change the narrative of what the what the war was about people often say there's always the question of was the civil war about slavery and in in my research personally. I've come to the opinion that the civil war was not about slavery for the North the North North drag their feet for a long time when the south left it was all about unifying the country was bringing the south back in they weren't fighting to eradicate slavery at the time it it really wasn't until stanton pushed and pushed and pushed. I believe that Lincoln finally did the emancipation proclamation made it about slavery and that's what John Mercer Langston in an Frederick Douglass and a lot of the militias were begging Lincoln to do was make this a righteous war make this about slavery and then finally he came around and that's when we see the turn of the tide in the war and allowing armed slaves and Friedman to fight on the side of the North as we have that that big push of off of extra soldiers and having that righteousness behind them for the south it was hardly about slavery and I think the the narrative errative that it wasn't it was about state's rights. Yes it was about state's rights but it was the right for states who own people and any any detraction detraction from that is an effort to to gloss over antebellum south and the loss 'cause and yeah the off you skate what it was really was about on this question Russian of Lincoln's journey and his change in his position his public position about slavery. There's a lot of debate about that. There are a lot of Lincoln apologised out there. That would say well well. Lincoln in his heart of hearts was always an abolitionist. He was always vehemently anti-slavery but he had to play the public part of a pragmatic politician he he understood that change had to come incrementally in that if you tried to rip the band aid off that there would be no union but the same thing it's interesting the thing. I think could be set of George Washington. The founding fathers in the you know the late seventeen eighties when the constitutional convention met in Philadelphia they made the controversy does your decision to sideline the issue of slavery altogether that they would not debate it until eighteen o eight will the same thing could be said if they had pushed. It's too hard in one direction. Perhaps there would be no union. Perhaps there would never have been United States constitution or an American President but on the other side of that question is if they dealt with it in that time maybe award better exactly and I think the truth is we there is no clean answer to that question but it certainly an interesting question and a worthwhile debate it it's really fascinating just look at the formation of America and see when you have Plymouth Rock and you have Jamestown that that's where the issue started is these two separate separate colonies growing in the north and the south and that everything goes back to those initial seeds of colonization just crazy to see the journey that the country goes on from there the reason that I. I think that Stanton was pushing so much in Lincoln T- towards that that issue is that for me the most influential book for me was the Frank Abo Flower Book the autocrat of rebellion emancipation and reconstruction and in that he very clearly lays out the things that stanton pushed for and the things that Lincoln made him take back and and it could be exactly what Steve was saying it was Lincoln being pragmatic and being incremental rather than than trying to push Tame Stanton being stubborn standing governs but it's it's the book very clearly lays out all of the steps that were taken forward and backward in that struggle between those two men and and what the policy and ended up being with emancipation proclamation but I think it's undeniable that Edwin Stanton's actions had an indelible impact impact on Abraham Lincoln but equally equally impactful to John Wilkes booth. I mean booth followed the political climate of the day he followed in the press the actions of Edwin Stanton and of Lincoln's administration and certainly just as he was moving Lincoln ever so slowly towards the goal that he wished for which was equality emancipation emancipate at the very same time he was alienating John Wilkes booth and pushing him towards his monstrous horrific inevitable end not to say that it's Edwin Stanton's fault but certainly from John Wilkes booth perspective he definitely would pointed a finger of blame at Edwin Stanton. The the truth is Lincoln by far had the most progress of any president before him and and did take those final steps to say we should have a black suffrage and all oh soldiers that the risk their lives should have the right to vote and that was was a step far far beyond any president that had been before him and it's what killed him but but it's also what cemented his place in the annals of history in it's the reason why he was considered is considered one of the greatest presidents of all time the fact that the issue still resonate so loudly today is in part because of the price that he paid to to bring that issue front and center that we're still dealing with today and I oftentimes sir. Imagine wonder what it might have been like had Lincoln survived had Lincoln been able to live through reconstruction and how our our country might have been different different. You know what what what what the next chapter for Abraham Lincoln beads. It's one of those mysteries. We'll never know well. It's interesting that you would mention that because we actually put out the the word on on twitter that we were doing this final recording and if anyone had specific questions they should send them in and Michael Moore. I think not the world famous documentarian but a listener asked what your opinion was what reconstruction would have looked like had had. Lincoln survived an interesting also. I think about that question that like if Stanton had allowed how'd accurate to go with him to the Ford like so many questions left unanswered but where where do you guys fall on on how things might have looked or do you avoid that well well. I think it's again. It's a mystery. We'll never know we can only conjecture I have to believe that Lincoln would have prosecuted reconstruction in a way that would built a larger consensus that Andrew Johnson. I don't think that's a a controversial statement but I think the real question is is on on the spectrum of leniency to punishment. Where would lincoln have fallen and I don't know I don't know that my mind is made up about that. I think I think a compelling argument can be made either way. I I think that the the radicals in Congress could've pushed him more towards their side of things earlier on then than than Johnson they allow Johnson tube because Johnson was able to veto them obviously they override but I think that they would have been able to convince them to move a little bit to the argument demint of punishment for the south. We've talked before about the threshold that they had to have of people who would take the oath to come back into the country they each state basically a percentage pitch population of every state had to swear this loyalty oath before they would be fully readmitted into the union and Johnson when he did it. It was ten percent ten percent of people we'll had to say sorry for treason and then their state would be back in the radical. Republicans wanted it to be closer to fifty percents and then of course they were folks. Democrats Kratz primarily who wanted it to be zero percent. That's ultimately the way that Andrew Johnson moved right but that's sort of on that spectrum where would lincoln of fallen what do you think and and as I said I I think that they would have been able to convince Lincoln to make the threshold higher they probably would have definitely pushed to not allow ex confederate generals or leadership to reassume positions in Congress which I think is just a travesty that that was allowed especially since this was the bloodiest war country had ever seen well. Willin is one of the things that that fascinates me so much about the stories that you guys have found and how how little pieces of it have huge effects like if the tribunal doesn't happen. Mary Surat is not hung which was a point that swung huge opinion so many little things in terms of like okay Johnny Sarah's in the wind because he's being hunted for this but but he was a key factor improving it and if he hadn't fled and was brought in to trial they might have been able to prove the conspiracy. There's so many pieces and I think you guys have done a great job of finding these little things in history that I didn't know had the ability to affect things in the way that they did some other listener questions betsy from Dallas has asked a a question about specifically what happened to the character of Lucy. You talk about different consequences. Mary psoriasis consequences were very grave and Lucy was was it's not prosecuted. What happened to Lucy after the story. A Lucy went to Spain with her father. They were there for five years. I believe he got very sick and in in eighteen seventy and had to return to the United States and she ultimately went with him while she was overseas though she was still sort of the bell of Washington she was the bell of Europe she was courted afforded by the High Society in Europe everywhere. She went including by many of her former suitors that predated reverently. Can John Wilkes booth she ultimately emily married one of the suitors and the Navy Secretary Yeah that's right really and they had a child together yeah so she stayed in her. I mean I think John Parker would have been very proud of her. I don't know that that squares with a Lucie that we've created in the fiction of all right but but certainly yes she she married a statesman politician. Shane in a high born man in the end was so loyal to her father that she built him a monument when he died all right. There's a few others that I was interested in checking in on what happened to Robert Lincoln. I mean he clearly he did not become the world changing politician what happened to Robert. Actually did end up having a bit of a political career. He ended up becoming the secretary of war for a future. President Robert was on the train with Garfield when he was shot and then Garfield died two months later he was on a train to go see McKinley. McKinley McKinley was shot and assassinated and so I I can't remember which President Taft it was somebody later had invited him and he said I'm not going to spend time around any the other president. No thank you look. There's another well. It's not as crazy that starting that's an incredible fact but one of the other crazy stories about Robert this actually predates the action at this play but while he was a student. I think he was a student at Harvard. He was traveling from New York to DC. He was standing on a train platform. Warm was incredibly crowded. He was backing up to try to move out of the way and he slipped and fell and he fell in between the train and the edge of the platform and the train rain started to move and Robert would have been crushed by the train and a man reached down grabbed Robert Lincoln and pulled him up and saved his life and when Robert Lincoln turned around who was standing there or none other than Edwin booth that's right and booth saved his life. Robert Landslide and Robert New Edwin was because everyone knew who had was was Edwin had no idea and then months later Lincoln wrote a letter to Edwin booth thanking him for saving his son's life. Wow and there's a there's a weird connection action. there's a man named. Adam Budo who was the man that Robert ended up serving under the end of the war just as his secretary because he wasn't allowed on battlefield. He was a close friend of Edwin booths and actually stayed in Edwin boost home. When there was a riot in New York he was injured and stayed with them and he's the one that vouched for Edwin booth when the assassination investigation was going on that he is an American he is a Patriot he would never be tied to John. Wilkes booth and what he did and and a lot of people have said that his saving of Robert is what saved him later in that investigation and what happened. Let's let's talk a little bit about the future of Edward after this after the story of course the FA- The family is is besmirched in a huge way he gave up acting for a while and was just felt like the family name was disgraced disgraced took him a while to get back into it but the country did eventually forgive Edwin and he he performed for many presidents after that and and still continue and you'd be a respected member society okay so additional recap what what was the follow up on some of the other conspirators that we met in these bonus episodes well of course we know that four conspirators which there were many were hung it was Mary Surat David Herold Lewis Pain Powell Georgia. That's George at Surat but the Composite Character Samuel Lachlan who is saying Arnold Michael Oakland and Samuel Mudd and Ned Spangler who we never talked about he. It was the guy at the theater that was arrested they were all sent to dry Tortuga. there was a outbreak of I think of scarlet fever and lots of them died and Samuel Mudd actually ended up volunteering for the prison. He's a doctor because he's a doctor to try to help and I mean Michael. Lachlan's died of that in prison. Samuel was later given a pardon by Johnson because of his efforts in the prison and ended up living a living out of life in a farm arm and had ned spangler working for him personally on the farm because I get get Zari els and then I really weird. I think we mentioned this already but John Surat was of course ended up in in Rome. He was coming back and Speaker Circuit Right which is also bizarre very czar in that speaker circuit. He says that he he met with the secretary of war. The confederacy within the week that Lincoln was killed but he says hope and I didn't have anything to do with it but I sort of feel like when you read his words it's sort of like Nudge Nudge wink quick yes I did and then closing out finally with booth he was buried in an unmarked grave under the floor of a government building until he was finally the family was like begging for his body to be exhumed and into bury him elsewhere. I'm amazed that they let that happen actually because they were took a long time and Edwin was was begging for that body back which is one of the reasons why I wholeheartedly shoot down the escape theory that people have that booth ended up escaping. I think I should say what it is. This is because I don't know there is an escape theory. Tell us about what did he survive the barn that he escaped down to. There's a story that he was at the Grand Berry. Yeah Jeff and that he was performing down here and granted is a small town in Texas where there is a lovely Opera House these days they do a lot of summer musicals and things of that nature but that's the theory is they booth was there working until he died and then he died and then a guy bought the body and toured around with the body at at fairs showing the body audion saying it was John Wilkes Booth I think it's it's preposterous because the family fought so hard for his body and they had a really extensive offensive autopsy done when he was first shot and they had in another autopsy done when they reclaimed the body him because the family had fought so hard to get his body back and and I don't think they would have accepted anything less than getting their actual loved one back at that time Yup. I agree clearly every question I throw it you guys you have a treasure trove rove of facts and research that you have done so much information in both of these very tired goals that I see before me but one of the questions that we also got from fashioning faith who has been a listener of the show for a long time in a big fan wanted to know. Is there any specific resources if they wanted to find out more about specifically Edwin Stanton the the a book that I mentioned before was by frank a flower Edwin mcmasters stanton the autocratic rebellion emancipation and reconstruction close off Thailand. Yes it just flows hum that was that was really a great book because he actually interviewed people that knew Stanton and they had personal stories a lot of the personal stories we had came from that talking about the the poisoning during the poison the trial and the crashing the Rainbow a lot of the stories came from that book because he did interview people that that New Stanton is lifetime the other one that was really helpful was George Co Congdon Goram's life in public surfaces of Edwin M Stanton very dry and boring for anybody that would probably Wanna read it but it was great for me because it had so much of a wealth of information and if you like dry and boring I think we've mentioned before but Gideon Welles diary is is lovely. I think it's a page Turner but but the book that I out of all the stanton the books that I've read and I've read a lot Erica's red way more than me but the one that I really love is Walter Stars Lincoln's war secretary. which is I think the most recent of the books which means that I read it very very very late in this process? I actually started reading that book after the show was already locked in the can and it's one of those that I wish I had a hold of earlier in the process and I hope I hope Wendy. I get to meet Walter Star because I would love to pick his brain. Is that the one that talks about Charles Dickens. Yes yes told them about yeah because I think that's fascinating well. Charles Dickens sort of did a tour of the Americas in you know spend some time in Washington city actually had dinner with a lot of prominent imminent statesman at that time but one of them was was Edwin Stanton and they talked a lot about his relationship to Abraham Lincoln. I kind of got the vibe from what I've read about about that meeting between Dickens and Stanton that Dickens sort of thought that Stanton just loved him Stanton. Definitely Love Charles Dickens as though he was a huge Charles Dickens fan he could quote Dickens by memory to the extent that Dickens even remarked that stanton quote passages from his books that he did not even even recollect were his own wow yeah and that was one of those things that I was like. Oh I wish I had known that when I first started conceiving of Stanton as a character because I would have instead of like going to Shakespeare in the Greeks and Aristotle. I would have gone more Dickensian with it. It's interesting well before we finish up. I WANNA do some wrap up and ask a few questions about the content but the process of creating this podcast and to do that I want to invite executive producer and sound engineer and composer composer and the man in charge of everything Lindsay Graham host of American history tellers host of American scandal creator of terms and the man who did all of the music zig all of the sound design way more work than he ever thought it was going to be on these fifteen episodes so welcome. Welcome thank you. I knew exactly how much you took it stoically to you just knew it was coming. I wanted to do it so so this has been a long journey as we've mentioned for for all of us longer under of course for you Stephen Eric but but Lindsay and I've been now on this for a year and a half some of these were recorded over a a year ago some of the performances some of them were recorded remotely in New York studios and other places and kind of put together but I wanted to take all three of you back to the very beginning of when we started one of the questions we got from listener listener. Betsy also is like what was it like the first time you heard Jeremy Schwartz doing the voices Stanton because I know for me. That was the moment when I'm like. Oh Yeah. This is going to work for me. This was that moment I was. GonNa ask what that was like for you guys and if there were other key moments that stood out in the recording process that you realize like. Oh this is going to be special liar. Remember personally the first time that I even heard mentioned that you in Stephen talked about this project was we were at rob's house for Christmas caroline and you'd like mentioned in the kitchen. Hey I don't know if you heard our podcast terms which did in it's incredibly should listen to it. Download it now. We're it now. None of this would have been possible without the successive terms and said if we need to check that show out but that was the first time I heard mentioned that you guys were talking talking about turning this into a podcast and I was totally on board and certainly the first time that I heard Jeremy read those words I it it just all made sense to be but the another key moment was a moment where Lindsay took a speech. I believe it was the speech at the end of seeing to we were in the studio. Jeremy was doing the speech live and Lindsey began to play a riff on his guitar as we recording Jeremy and it was beautiful and I was like what are you doing and but I didn't WanNa say anything and Lindsey was composing. What I think was the very kernel of what would become our theme. You had been kicking around I have to mention you know. Jeremy came to us third or fourth or fifth in line of people we had zeroed in on. We tried a lot of folks to try to find out exactly like balance and they were all exceptional actors and it was. I don't know I just wasn't satisfied until Jeremy sat down in front of the microphone and commanded it. He had a presence GRAVITAS and importance of severity he was Edwin Stanton Stanton from the first syllable and I think this project owes him a great debt absolutely agree. We tried a lot of wedding dresses but he was the one that just we had to say yesterday. I address the one you you knew at the second. You tried it other other moments in the recording process that stood out for you for me. There was some times when we had like four characters together in a room and going back and forth really there was some some wells Johnson Stanton seward that were some great stuff early on that. I really briefly moved and had some some energy to it. I think the first time we heard R Bruce Elliott and Jeremy Schwartz together it was amazing and of them are Bruce. Elliott is the actor who plays Andrew Johnson of course and he is absolutely incredible credible. I also think there's let's put it this way. Lindsay and I could do a scene together. He could be in Dallas. I could be in London. We could cut the scene together. Lindsey would design it he would soundscape it and the audience would be none the wiser and that's true but there is there there are are some nuances that occur when you have the actors in the room together organically experiencing what it's like to look each other in the eyes and have having having experience in that moment and that organic thing we were able to capture that quite a bit luckily we were gifted with with the blessing of being able to put these brilliant actors in the room together and often times. Some of the best moments in the show were accidents. They were stumbles. There were hiccups. They were lines that weren't even on the page misspoke and those happy accidents gave it a sort of I believe very organic realistic quality at times and I think that that's one of the beautiful awful things about about working audio. Drama is that you know you're kind of doing a play but only for yourselves. Nobody's watching you know. Lindsay's listing. You're listening. Rob Is the director and maybe I'm listening Eric's listening but it's really just an audience the number of people that are in the room and I think we're blessed with some very very gifted actors. Yeah we got some great performances. I think on a side note. The second bonus episode is probably the most people that weren't in the same room together. the the most the scenes were mixed with people from out of town. Monty was never in the room in that episode Phillips Eric Phillips was out of the room. Read Bernie was out of the room a lot of those people were recorded at different times and but again the talent of our actors and being able to find those nuances even when you're talking to no one or talking to Stephen even the other room on a microphone well again credit to Lindsey Graham of putting those people in the same physical space and making it really imperceptible that they are not hysteria these yeah it's masterful. There was a couple of times when I even forgot. Oh that's right. They weren't there. I listened back to the scene and try to remember and it wasn't until later that I realized like Oh they weren't even in the room that it was recorded. Two months later in a different studio in you know in somebody's closet somewhere whatever so so Kudos to you have the biggest compliment that I heard about out the show and I think this speaks to Linzie to your work was it wasn't that I could hear it was I can see it. I'm listening to it and I can see it last. I thought that was really high. Praise so you have have been involved. You're you're the most experienced of all the podcasters in the room. Lindsey what are your thoughts on audio drama drama now. You've been doing dramatize. History Straight history true crime different different areas of the world. This is this and terms are the to fully dramatize. Is Things are you. Are you a fan. It's an awful lot of work fan of the work that I myself do. I am quite fond of of what I accomplished. yeah audio drama as a niche is an interesting one. I mean there's a there's a first of all the podcasts into she she is moving quickly and changing abruptly and enlarge measures There's also all of a sudden hundreds of millions of dollars involved in a major power players. It's shifting audio. Drama is not really a a poor apart of that landscape and and the reason why is because I don't know it should be I the the audience is just haven't been there except for a star-studded blockbusters that just happened to I mean if if you're if you're Gimblett and you come out with a Catherine Keener David Schwimmer homecoming and and get apple to be a sponsor on it it's going to succeed. I mean there's there's certain formulas just to to the business that that make some projects more valuable than the others. I desperately wished that wasn't the case because I think I think we would see all your drama community and Industry Tree that wasn't as as contained two fantasy sci fi horror as it is we would see more political article or historical explorations in the space. There's no reason that any story shouldn't be able to be told through audio. The only thing you can think of it's like car chases would probably be bad you oh. I think we could make that really interesting actually. I I wanted to do a car chase for a French connection. Twenty minute car doesn't seem like it's for audio but accepting that there's really is not a story that shouldn't be able to be told in audio. Oh and what that does is is democratize the medium and I hope that by democratizing meaning that it's cheaper to produce it's easier for for ordinary the average per folks to to do something on a scale that they think they had the idea that that you you know we've all seen the low rent short films being made we've made them ourselves and there are sacrifices you you have to make here really if you have eight square feet in a closet and a hundred and fifty dollar microphone you're on your way and and that won't get you a lens. Let let alone a camera and an editor location on in the film world and then it's easy you just need great writing and amazing actors still i. I will say we got really lucky with the script was amazing to have this much a pool of a resource a lot of people ask us us. You know what's next to when you guys GonNa do next We don't know we don't have an answer for that. I will say that there is no other project that Stephen Eric been working on for the past seventeen years that they're they're ready for. We have a short list of things that were interested but there are things coming up tall so you mentioned you know homecoming. If someone wants to make a feature film please call less 1865 website the PODCAST facebook twitter reach out to us if you have several million dollars and would like to see the screen adaptation of this. We're more than interested in talking a big time Hollywood screenwriter so that's going to be you know Oh. It's easy so big time all need to my mother no but I I have something to say about just what the processes is like. One of the things about writing first of all writing for radio is counterintuitive. It's it's not the way that I was brought up as storyteller train into storyteller educated as storyteller I I would say it's probably true of everybody in this room for the most part we we learned using our is right whether it was reading words words on a page or whether it was watching moving images on a screen the first place that we experienced story was not with our ears with our eyes and I think that that's a up a relatively new thing in grand scope of technology and one of the challenges for me in approaching something as big and sweeping and epic as this without the benefit of visual storytelling which is something. I realized I relied pretty. Heavily upon is just how to how to do it in a way that just isn't isn't that. Lindsey was talking about the car chase earlier. The only the only surefire way to pull off a car chase is to have an actor say wow that was a crazy car arches and he believed that car chase wow that cards you see the way he hit left and right anyway. Mr mccullum that was a crazy car chase and then you would yes yes sterile or will do or to do a found footage where it's it's tonight on the nightly news the car chase through downtown. Dallas and but those constraints they they sort of force you to be creative and one of the blessings that I think we had during this process was the ability to be Nimble. You know we're basically a four for a four person team with an amazing cast in. We discovered things that actually the play that is sort of an offshoot to this podcast. It's called Mars Mars and it's it's still evolving. It's still in development with the Dallas Theater Center and as that play evolved as that play changed and as I learned more about the story the podcast I would shapeshifts you know and that's something that you don't get with film. You know you don't you don't always have the ability to go back and take another little nuance stab at a scene or just something or manipulate something a lot of times once it's locked. It's locked. That's the end of the day so it was very. It was very very much. It's a learning process for me and one that I was really grateful to go through well. It was fascinating because there were there were changes being made right up until last week much to Lindsey Graham's chagrin exchanges. I forced many of those some of those cut. The crap out of these dialogue has changed entire sentences have you we've been reordered all in the editing process and and I can't tell you what the impetus is other than it. Just sounds better that way well. I think we've also learned and a lot as listeners you know we started listening to this. You know fifteen weeks ago and even though we've been involved in the edit to then like sit in your car or sit in your house with your ear buds in and listen to it as a as a audience member and realize like Oh we don't they're gonNA get it. We don't need all that we can. We can cut four four sentences out of that scene because that one cent says it and the audience is with us. They know who these people are. Voices are so distinct the characters are so disgusting and it's just like Phil. There's the film you right. There's the film you you shoot and there's the film you edit and I think if you approached audio drama with a playwright sensibility you would not have a great deal of success. You have to approach audio drama from a sort of global storyteller perspective because if you try to come in rigid with it it just won't play. There's the audio drama you right. There's the one you record and then there's the one that you cut all right guys. I think that is all that there is to be said for this final inside the episode of eighteen sixty five the podcast Lindsey Graham Eric Stephen Walters Robert mccullum director extraordinary. Thank you sir. It has been an amazing journey to all of you listening. Thank you for going with us on on this journey both for the podcast itself and this inside the episode look how did it. I hope it was as interesting to you as it was entertaining for us with this whole thing together gives raise a glass to eighteen sixty five. Can we at least have Lenzi add a little clink improper. These bad beer cans exactly that Lindsey make it sound like champagne really all in take. All of that is state.
Inside the Episode | 9
"Mccollum producers eighteen sixty five. Thanks thanks for joining me for inside the episode episode nine as usual go writer stephen walters and eric are chila are here to talk about <music> all conspiracy all the time this episode where we get deep deep into what happened and what they're trying to prove with this conspiracy in in this episode we meet the character of mary sarah in this is a major major historical figure in this in this investigation and in this tribunal talk about who marries her atlas well. Mary surat was a focal point of the military tribunal and <hes> in this episode kind of do a deep dive into the conspiracy. You could write an entire twelve episode or longer series just about john wilkes booth and his conspirators trust me steve tried. I've had to rein them in what we just said. Stop stop doing rewrites. We're gonna do this and it's a good thing for my sanity and my marriage but basically <hes>. Mary sarah becomes a focal point of this investigation into john. John wilkes booth and his conspirators and their connection to jefferson davis and the confederacy <hes> mary was the mother of a man named john surat who was one of booths accomplices in what was an earlier plot prior to the <hes> assassination attempts which was an attempt to kidnap abraham lincoln and to trade raid abraham lincoln for troops who were in captivity <hes> prisoners of war eric. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that in about who mary is and how her and john fit into this whole thing so so john sarut is actually a member of the c._s._s. and he was kind of one of the confederate spies in the capital <hes> during when all of this was happening and and he actually rounded up <hes> grew crews of conspirators for several plots in one of those plots was this kidnapping <hes> which another one of those the things that a lot of people don't know about lincoln that it wasn't just an assassination attempt <hes> but actually they tried to kidnap him and multiple times in failthful times and and <hes> so this crew was which booth was a part of was assembled to try to kidnap president lincoln and there is a great question mysterious question of history that remains john answered <hes> <hes> of whether or not johnson dot was explicitly involved in the assassination attempt itself there are some that say he was not <hes> and then there are others and certainly he later says as he was not <hes> but there are others like edwin stanton who believed that he most definitely was in order for stanton to prove conspiracy the way that i think the simplest most reductive way to put this is that he and i think we say this. Your character says it we need to draw a line from john wilkes booth to jefferson davis. Now youth is dead. We can't use him to do that. That's right but the only way to do that now. In with booth dead is johnny sarah who is in the wind who's missing. They can't find him. They haven't been able to find him and so that's why mary he to answer your questions as long wave saying that's why mary is important because she is the mother of this conspirator who has a big role to play and and <hes> stanton. I think truly believes that she's guilty. <hes> i think history also doesn't tell us the real answer about whether or not mary was guilty and that obviously has a big part to play in this series moving for it as well. We also meet macphail when my other favorite characters played by an roberts who i believe played him in the original flavors he did did we've many mcphail i believe we met him and briefly but he had to replace because he was he was responsible in in our story for for doing a lot of questioning on the montani fail as i've mentioned before we had to. I used proxies to kind of <hes> some ideas in this. We didn't have a good jillian different characters so mcphail is kind of our proxy for all of the detectives is that are on the manhunt because he was responsible for arresting a couple of the conspirators from the very beginning of the military tribunal stanton does a lot a lot of things that are not real <hes> kosher as far as the justice goes <hes>. He does a lot of things that are not <hes> real above board. The tribunal is stacked with people that are loyal to him. <hes> the witnesses are not allowed to testify for themselves. <hes> all all of the witnesses have to be approved by stanton so it's it's very controlled and weaponising tribunal to prosecute his case against the south and at the same time and in his defense as it relates to marry surat i think he truly believed that she was guilty and i think that he believed that she knew about the murder. In about the assassination <hes> you know not only did mary lie to the war department multiple times and change your story multiple times but also the meetings between booth is an and his conspirators happened under her roof in her place in her place and i think stanton believes some historians believe that it strains credulity to think that she did not know anything well so not only stand in the thinks she's guilty but there's also the fact that he's trying to prove all this but at the same time now there's a back channel of threat right. Wells is going to go on a dirt finding mission. He's gonna find out some dirt on stanton's so that they can leverage him to you know to there will be at him. Today's been playing dirty and it's time for us to play dirty too because we're going to get something over him. Well of course the <hes>. The the question of firing edwin stanton has been alive throughout the series. He's wells has been encouraging johnson to fire stanton. Johnson is giving litany of reasons why he can't. We're sort of saying well. He can't fire him because he has dirt on him right. He has this star dr weapon that he can use but perhaps andy's a war hero yeah but he literally just won the war for the north. Yeah say it saved the union in many people's eyes and he was eating the day he was very very popular because of that with with a good set of the of the northern population and so there were a lot of political reasons why firing stanton would have been a bad idea so we now oh get into the tribunal we hear bingham's beautiful speech which is his actual for the most part is actually speeches opening not totally verbatim. We're very close goes to the opening remarks there so while that conspiracy is being unearthed jefferson. Davis is captured which there's been a huge manhunt for him as well and wearing address is true. Tell me about the capture of jefferson davis well. It's true they captured jefferson davis at this time during the tribunal and it's true that stanton ordered jefferson davis to be kept out of washington. I think for fear that it would interfere with the proceedings of the tribunal. I think stanton was wise and smart enough to know jefferson. Davis is gonna deny involvement with all of this. He's going to ask for a pardon and johnson's probably going to give it to him which spoiler alert that's what happens ultimately but but at this time the outcome for stanton is uncertain interestingly. There is the story that appears in the press after jefferson. Davis is captured about him wearing address and it it is believed that that story came from edwin stanton oh that that was potentially fake news. We don't know that that's real or not or that. He leaked that. I think what mainstream historians would say eric. You should correct me if i'm getting this wrong from what you know but i think what mainstream historians would say that it wasn't address he was wearing his wife's shawl to conceal his identity but then they spun it as that he was dressing as a woman so that would catch him in a very bugs bunny fashion so but that further complicates things for both johnson and stanton bingham is still not convinced that they have enough in their tribunal to prove this conspiracy and so he is begging stanton. Is there anyone else john surat has not come forward even though we have his mother <hes> and thought that my drawn out but it didn't is there anyone else so stanton has suggestion and that suggestion is a man by by the name of sanford conover or james watson wallace or charles dunham. He's a man of many names <hes>. He's a controversial figure in history who has a controversial role to play the episodes moving forward. <hes> what i believe to be true about conover is that he was in fact a union spy <hes> there are some people that believe that he was not a union despite that he was actually a confederate spy. Who is there too so disinformation. <hes> there are some people who believe he was playing both sides. There was some people who believe he was just in it for himself. <hes> history does not answer those questions for us. But what eric could i chose to believe about about charles dunham what i believe. His real name was <hes> is what what we believed about him. Is we or at least what we assume to be true. In imagined to be true is that he was telling the truth. At least at the outset he was telling the truth and that the the reason that he lied quote unquote understand and the reason that there was <hes> some discrepancies in his testimony in the canadian trial was because i of i believe he's the one who said this. There were rebels in the courtroom that we're going to kill him. If he had blown his cover and said who really was he was he was in <hes> he was undercover up in canada where they were doing all of these plots and there are several times where their plots were foiled and we believe that's because stanton had some inside men up there smiling for him it could be charleston could be others but we sort of you know kind of get into that that place of not really doing the answer and we try to assume the best about about charleston and then bingham starts to not like the plan to talk to conover and existent of that because he thinks he's a tainted witness and that could cause problems <hes> and then as the conspiracy is being on earth and the questions about how to proceed are moving in forward the other time line in the other story also comes back which is wells trying to find some leverage over stanton and this is where wells informs arms johnson about well. Hey lucy may have been a little more involved than everybody said this story cain. The story went away so that that fire is also now burning earning yeah. We sort of took artistic license with this <hes>. You know we imagined okay well. There's this mysterious woman in the black dress who mourns over boost body ready on the montauk prison ship was allowed to go on that ship presumably because edwin stance and said so well if that person's lucy hale maybe the navy secretary who's in charge of that had purview over the montoc would have learned about that information that was one of those coincidental things where he just happened to be the navy secretary. It was just putting putting putting together so we imagined that he uncovers this little piece of information and says i think there's more to this lucy hale story than meets the eye and then we talk about you know well says hey we've got something over him now and also this guy wants to be on the supreme court. It's time to start playing dirty pool. It's not gonna look good to fire the head of your war department in the middle of a southern conspiracy that there's even rumors you might have had something to do with it was like firing the head of the f._b._i. Or even vinnie attorney general either of those when there's an active investigation i mean it would be ludicrous. Nobody would ever do it would be insane so but but but what wells does is he offers up <hes> he loved and eric says nothing talk over you guys like laughing too though but i think the wells wells is saying to him hey maybe there's another way he's got at this lifelong dream of being on the supreme court and there's a chance that we might be able to give him something he wants. Get him out of your hair and so we can move on with amnesty and let this farce of a tribunal be the thing of the past now. This is one of those times where the historical events actually helped us is because the one of the few years is one of the times when we were writing something and we needed something to happen and we went to look it up and literally literally on this day the supreme court justice katrin died and so the time when we need something for him him to barter with the thing that he's always been wanting on. That day was available in the middle of that well i to me that that happened. When we were writing. It was cool the way that that happened but also the way i think of historical drama is that it's really the idea that matters right. I mean it's like this idea of lincoln had promised stanton a seat on supreme court. It was a lifelong dream of his now. He's at war with this new president. Who's an ideological opponent of his well if he had made nice with johnson. If he had towed the line with johnson he might have been able to sit on the supreme court under johnson's tenure he might have that might have been able to happen but he didn't. He chose he chose maybe and and maybe you did no spoilers. Oh maybe did sorry. I didn't mean to spoil. It's okay of the thing no no but we continue on that idea like this is. This is one of those times where trying trying to find a motivations to forward your story history actually supplied his history help. Moment history helped with it but it's i guess the thing i'm trying to point out is that i think it's the big idea a._d._a. That matters the most sure so now stanton has seemingly lost a fight. The attorney general has now said that the president can pardon anyone he wants to that is within his purview and stanton is not at all happy about this right and that's not all the attorney general says eric correct me if i'm wrong but i think the attorney general also also says that this compromise reconstruction plan <hes> is constitutional is what the the attorney general says president can do an issued giant statement about it right and so right around this time to two big things happen right in our story of course what johnson does is. He says we're we're moving forward and then when stanton buxom in threatens him to remind him hey i can make you a star star can make your life really unpleasant. He offers him. The seat on the supreme court of course stanton's answer is to bring l. a. star to the arsenal and add her to the witness. Which is something that did happen. The day after justice catcher died and also the very same time that johnson announces the first amnesty order so all those things happen in real history and real history within about forty eight hours yeah mate twenty-ninth was the amnesty proclamation. The thirtieth was catcher dying in the thirty. I was bringing yellow to the jail. Just bing bang boom right after and ella was brought to the jail. We know that but in terms of her she never testified. Did she know so that was potentially just a threat just to make sure that that story got out there. Maybe i mean that's how we interpreted. The the answer through is we don't know here's what we know. We know that ella was added to the witness list for the prosecution as a witness in the specific case of louis pain powell it is ironic because he's the one person of all the conspirators that made zero effort to defend himself at all and so so the question would be if it's true. This is my question if akkad if i could talk to edwin stanton i'd like to know the answer to this question. If it's true that ellis star was sort of a lady of the night for john wilkes booth right and if it's true that booth sort of bandied her about town with some of the high society and politicians washington city why in the world was she useful to the investigation into lewis pain pal how is that pertinent and so from the inability to answer that question eric nice sort of quote unquote weaponized that little title history factoid <hes> into a threat from stanton to johnson as if to say stop what you're doing. You are not going to grant universal amnesty. Which of course he hasn't <unk> done yet. <hes> there's a newspaper article about star being called to the jail. That actually says that the prostitute that tried to kill herself is now been called to the prison is in and we can only speculate the ones the i think the actual phrases much curiosity is manifested as to what might be uncovered from l. estar something but then she never never testifies right so it's very very strange very strange and if you follow the logic of her being added as a witness to the prosecution list there are repercussions of that which will come into play later in the series so things escalate from i bringing to the jail and then well says all right it's time we returned fire and and goes in as a chat with the soon to be departing for spain senator hale who comes back into the into the story one last time to make one final speech and the majority majority of the speech is actually word for word the speech that he gave on this farewell speech to congress and it's very very <hes> biting <music> of the war department and very critical very critical of what they've done during this out of the mockery that they've made of justice <hes> you know and i believe that he says if trial by jury be overthrown in this country take the rest and i think that is creative license that this is something that wells forces him to do you guys have made that but that's that speech is so out of character with the positions of hail prior to that point. It's you had to answer that question. Somehow well and it's impossible for me to imagine that that was not about the tribunal i mean it would be you know it would be like if i don't know a democratic senator in the middle of the cavenaugh hearing said if the if the process of senate approval for confirming judicial nominees is thrown thrown out take the rest i mean if he said that in the middle of the cavanaugh hearings you would have to assume that it was about what was happening in at that time it believable that hale would have huge problems with the government overreach of stanton whether poked by wells or not oh absolutely and i think it's also believable to think that stanton is starting to make more enemies than he is making friends and knows foreboding words that senator hale left him with an episode six of you're gonna end up just like hannibal all alone and in exile those were those chickens are starting to come home to roost for stanton stanton comes forward and released a statement openly saying that the friedman's bureau are not going to follow this amnesty <unk> regulation. He's openly bucking the president's direction shen right and and what what we're really getting into in this episode as it relates to the actual history of it is we're really getting into the constitutional crisis of the reconstruction instruction era which was that the president was saying one thing congress was saying another and what happens when those two things are in conflict because it's true that the attorney general says johnson has the right to pardon the president is imbued with those powers constitutionally but that same attorney general speed who's a republican also says that the president does not have the authority to countermand the laws of congress as they relate to reconstruction so we're in this place where it's like wait so which is it right. There's crisis who has the keys to writing policy for reconstruction right and is it congress edwin stanton enright because congress through the friedman's bill is given stanton in the war department the power to preside over reconstruction or is it the president so that's really what we're getting into in this episode. That's the the the crisis that we're getting into and as langston says he comes in <hes> at a certain point and you know he's concerned that the president has announced ounce this amnesty proclamation and you know when stanton says well. We're gonna. We're gonna hit him back. We're gonna fight back. He says are we are. We are we about to go to war with. The president of the united states and stanton says well the war's already begun <hes> and that's really what we mean when we say war it's this constitutional war that is going to play out over the course of the series one of the really exciting things in writing the show has been how long we've had to play out these this long game between these two opposing forces and it's been cool to slow play a lot of this but now we're finally getting to where things are colliding. The gloves are coming loves or coming off well and then kind of the adult in the room seward who again is the is the peace and unity guy comes back in with with a an impassioned plea that says stop up the shenanigans. Just prove your case. Stop this back and forth with the president and of course the reason in our in our telling of it that seward comes in to say that is because there's this huge revelation about sanford conover in the new york times. He has a very thing that bingham was afraid would be would would come out has come out and this is this is true. This is the thing that happened. You could read it. The new york times keeps incredible archives a that era online. Go look it up and read about james watson wallace sanford conover and charles dunham and read what they have to say. It's incredible. It's incredible to me that this story happened. It's incredible to me that as a result of this story canova's testimony is stricken from the record and it's incredible to me that as a result of it stanton is is left with nothing. His cases completely obliterated so that's where we are really at the end of the episode. The conifer imbruglia always happened. The case has fallen through his one chance to prove the southern conspiracy which is in truth his one chance to stop amnesty and stop the end of the reconstruction plans that lincoln had his one thread is gone which which means his only hope approving that conspiracy is to find johnny sarut that's right. That's when he goes back to mary. Yeah turns his ire back towards mary. <hes> and of course that is a showdown that that's that is really going to boil over so the stakes could not be any higher. Where's it gonna go. How could it end. You're going to have to tune in next next week or study for ten years of history but trust me. It's much easier just to tune in next week and listened to episode ten eric steve. Thanks so much for being with us. Thank you and thank you offer listening and if you'd like to support this kind of storytelling and ensure that we can continue to tell more stories like these supports caitriona dot com slash eighteen sixty five members there get advanced access episodes bonus features and free copy of the soundtrack album. That's patriot dot com slash eighteen sixty five. I'm rob mccallum alum. Thanks for listening to eighteen sixty five inside.
1865 Presents American Elections: Wicked Game | 4
"Hi i'm lindsey. Graham executive producer of eighteen sixty five the first three episodes of season two eighteen sixty five have been what we've called a prolonged from where season one ended getting into more detail about the political ramifications of andrew. Johnson's impeachment the row over the tenure of office act and to introduce a new major character. General ulysses s grant episode four of season. Two begins just before grant inauguration. I don't think it's a spoiler that he won the presidency but though anyone who's ever seen a fifty dollar bill knows grant did become president. The details of his victory in eighteen sixty eight aren't so well known this week. We're going to fill in those gaps with an episode from another of my podcasts american elections. Wicked game it's an in-depth tour of all fifty nine presidential elections and in eighteen sixty eight. While andrew johnson went on an early norm breaking campaign tour to promote his reelection. he was ultimately not chosen to lead the democratic ticket. Instead he was horatio seymour of new york. That went head-to-head with grant by the battle lines. Were the same. Was the country to remain a white man's government as seymour promised it would or could grant take back the reins of reconstruction and lead broken nation to healing through equity. Here's episode twenty one from the podcast. American elections wicked game eighteen sixty eight seymour versus grant the rise of the general eighteen sixty five returns with episode four of season two next week able twenty fifth eighteen sixty five at a tobacco farm near a small hamlet town of port royal virginia. It's the middle of the night. The woods are eerily quiet inside the main house. The garrett family sound asleep all but richard and of the family. The old man hasn't slept a wink. That's because there are two men two strangers sleepy and the tobacco barn outside the men claim to be wounded confederate soldiers on the way home from the war. One of the men is on crutches which supports their story. There's something about these men that makes garrett. Suspicious is churning. Thoughts are interrupted by loud. Knock on the front door gear. Turns to his wife who wakes with a start. That's by close dressed. Only in a nightgown garrett makes his way downstairs and peers through window outside. A swarm of union troops and detectives geared opens the door and an army officer named everton conger. Waste no time. Are you mr garrett. Yes sir richard gere. Who's in the house with you. Family wife and children. Where are the two men who stopped here at your house. Garrett grows nervous. They've gone gone. Wear to the woods. A lame man gone to the woods. He walked with the help crutches. Show me where they went. Just an mrs gareth appears in the doorway. Her husband's clothes in hand her son. John young man follows behind her garrett. Turns to the soldier magaw inside and address myself. Mma dress here garrett's lies on his pants and boots. Conger continues the interrogation. Where in the woods have they gone came here without my consent. Sir did not want them to stay. I do not want any long story out of you. I just want to know where these men have gone. Please sir you must believe me. I did not want them to stay. Conger interrupts him embarks orders. One of his men. Bring a larry rope. I will put this man at the top of a locust dream just then john steps forward and calls out. Don't hurt the old man he scared. One of congress soldiers grabs john by colum drags him off the front porch and puts a revolver to his head. Tell us where they are son in the barn which one breath tobacco barnow you in late april. Eighteen sixty five members of the union. Manhunt surrounded the tobacco barn on the garrett farm and ordered the two fugitives inside to surrender their arms and come out one of the fugitives obeyed. The other refuse calling out to the soldiers prepare a stretcher for me boys. The tense standoff lasted throughout the night. Ultimately the barn was lit. Ablaze shots rang out when the smoke cleared. The wounded fugitive was carried out of the barn and placed beneath the nearby locus train. There as the life trained from his body the actor. John wilkes booth the assassin of president abraham lincoln hundred. His final words useless useless. Eighteen sixty five sponsored by the new podcast american sport. The southerners had traveled miles to meet their northern foes for both this day would test their strength and skill but also be a battle for their way of life their pride and culture but it wasn't a battlefield. They travel to on that late spring day in eighteen. Forty five twenty years prior to the end of the civil war it was a racetrack and though the wagers were on horses the stakes were the fate of the nation. This is the opening of civil war on the race track from american sport hosted by historian matt andrews who describes in gripping narrative house sports reflect an altar american politics and racial and social movements. Listened to american sport now on apple podcasts. Spotify and anywhere else. You listen to podcasts I'm lindsey graham and this is american elections wicked game The death of abraham lincoln the first. Us president to be assassinated devastate. The union the assassin. John wilkes booth and his band of conspirators. Also attempted to assassinate lincoln secretary of state william seward and as vice president andrew johnson. There was allegedly another target as well. Lincoln's war secretary edwin m stanton while the nation mourned the death of lincoln edwin stanton took control cleared martial law and presided over the largest manhunt in. Us history booth was ultimately killed his conspirators. Captured tried found guilty and sentenced to death or life in prison but stanton never believed booth in his gang of conspirators. Were rogue actors. He believed that they were taking. Orders from jefferson davis the president of the newly defeated confederate government. Though the evidence proving the south's complicity was lacking stanton always believed the rebels were behind the attacks. The death of abraham lincoln also set the table for one of the greatest political showdowns in american history on one side stood president. Andrew johnson torius drunk and big. Who was sympathetic. To the south on the other side edwin m stanton and the radical republicans in congress who wanted to secure abraham lincoln's legacy and protect the four million freed slaves in the south the run up to the eighteen sixty eight contests the beginning of what would come to be called. The reconstruction era brought about many firsts the end of a civil war the first president assassinated and the first impeachment of president in us history in the midst of this tumbled. One man would rise to power and fight to keep the country together a hero of the civil war who despises politics but deeply loved his country. General ulysses s grant. This is episode twenty one eighteen sixty eight seymour versus grant the rise of the general. The main source of disagreement between president andrew johnson secretary of war edwin stanton centered around the issue of reconstruction. The civil war was over. But the union army still occupied the newly defeated south the task of putting the country back together and of readmitting. The southern states was president. Johnson's cross to bear stanton and his radical republican allies in congress favored a punitive policy towards the south. The rebels had seceded from the union and attempted to put down the american government. Stanton and the radicals wanted there to be consequences. They wanted the states readmitted through an official process whereby a southern state would only be readmitted to the union after substantial portion of its citizens signed a loyalty oath to uphold emancipation and support the union president. Johnson favoured a policy of universal amnesty or pardon towards the south though he had given lip service to stanton and the radicals johnson wanted to readmit the southern states with almost no strings attached to restore to the people of the south all rights of citizenship including property rights to land confiscated during the war but hanging in the balance of this question was the future of four million freed slaves. In the south. Johnson's priority was restoring. The south and uniting the country stanton's priority was keeping the peace and using the military to support the operations of the freedman's bureau at government agency charged with protecting of the friedman down south and providing them with government support like all schools resources and land land was at the heart of the issue. The friedman have been promised forty acres and a mule per man. Those forty acres would be parceled out of lands confiscated during the war. Landowners in the south wanted that land back by all accounts johnson wanted to give it to them therefore did not take long for stanton and johnson to come to blows in april of eighteen. Sixty six one year. After lincoln's assassination johnson officially declared the rebellion over to johnson whose proclamation meant that army commanders in the south could no longer enforce martial law. Johnson wanted the southern state and local governments to take back control. After johnson's proclamation stanton buck the president. Hard he instructed. The generals to ignore johnson's order to enforce martial law as needed and to use the army to protect the friedman and to support the freemen's bureau stanton also ordered his generals to arrest lawbreakers and civil rights offenders who perpetrated violence against the freemen. Stanton was sending a message to the south. If local authorities refuse to enforce the law the military would stanton was of course putting himself in harm's way but in his mind it was a risk worth. Taking stanton was a lifelong abolitionist johnson. A self professed bigot and stanton's mind. Johnson was an existential threat to the union and stanton was the only person standing in his way by the summer of eighteen. Sixty six johnson's advisers were growing. Weary of the irascible obstinate war secretary stanton one advisor wrote that edwin stanton came to cabinet meetings not as an adviser but as an opponent. Johnson's navy secretary gideon welles. Despise stanton a man he called treacherous but johnson exercised restraint. He feared that firing stanton would start a political war with the radical republicans but also in the summer of eighteen sixty. Six johnson had bigger worries mainly his reelection in the eighteen. Sixty eight contest. Johnson was an accidental president to win in eighteen sixty eight. He'd have to prove himself to the people so in the fall of eighteen. Sixty six two years before the election johnson broke from the political norms of the day and launched what was in effect a full-scale presidential campaign tour for this swing around the circle tour to be successful. Johnson would need to draw large crowds so he brought along a bona fide national hero. General ulysses s grant johnson had hoped that the swing around the circle tour would rallied the country behind him. The result was something altogether different. Johnson's rambling and sometimes incoherent speeches. Were self-congratulatory boastful. An inarticulate. one johnson supporter described his speaking style as aggressive belligerent. To a degree that rendered him insensitive considerations of prudence in a speech in saint. Louis johnson invoked the new orleans riot which had taken place in july eighteen sixty six. That riot was a bloody massacre. Where a mob of white democrats policemen and firemen attacked a crowd of black protestors. The tragedy had resulted in over one hundred casualties but in his speech johnson didn't blame the perpetrators he blamed the radical republicans in congress for inciting racial tensions in a self pitying turn. Johnson said of his opponents in congress. If i played the judas who has been my christ that i played the judas with was it. That evens was wendell phillips. Was charles sumner. These are the men that stop and compare themselves to the savior and everybody that differs with them. An opinion and to try and stay in arrest. Diabolical in various policy is to be denounced as a judas on the tour johnson repeatedly attacked legitimacy of the thirty ninth congress and the lawfulness of the recently ratified fourteenth amendment. The one that gave equal civil rights to freed slaves. General grant was mortified at johnson's conduct. He wrote to his wife. I've never been so tired of anything. Before as i have been with political stump speeches of mr johnson. I look upon them as a national disgrace. It's not surprising then that the tour backfired in the eighteen sixty. Six midterm elections republicans swept both houses of congress. Winning one hundred and seventy three out of two hundred twenty six seats in the house and all but a handful of seats in the senate whispers of impeachment had begun circulating as early as the spring of eighteen. sixty six. what in the wake of the midterms radical stopped whispering started to take action republican congressman thaddeus. Stevens wrote to a colleague that the time to impeach his now if we are brave enough yes. There's the rub. How few brave men are there In january of eighteen sixty seven. The house opened an investigation into andrew. Johnson by february impeachment hearings had begun behind closed doors. Johnson's navy secretary gideon welles wrote in his diary. There is nothing judicial or fair in this proceeding. It is sheer partisan ism. A committee is sitting in secret. Afoul conspiracy trying to haunt up charges and evidence against as pure as honest patriotic a chief magistrate as we have ever had in those closed door hearings the accusations against johnson went far beyond corruption or abuse of power among other things entry. Johnson was accused of conspiring with the rebels as president. Lincoln's wife mary todd had written one year after her husband's murder. As sure as you. And i live. Johnson had some hand and all this in early february in another closed door session. Congress heard the testimony of a military man. Colonel lafayette c baker during the war. Baker had worked as a union spy at the time of his testimony. He was the chief of the war department's national detective police and was a central figure in the hunt. For lincoln's assassin. John wilkes booth bakers testimony to the members of the house. Judiciary committee was explosive. He claimed to have carried a letter from andrew johnson to confederate president. Jefferson davis baker told the committee that he no longer had the letter in his possession. He also told the committee that he could not remember the precise contents but he was certain that in the letter johnson indicated that he would go with them meaning he would go along with jefferson davis's plot against abraham lincoln. Baker did not tell the committee who gave him the letter and he could not recall the date when he saw it he was accusing johnson of treason of conspiring with the confederacy against the union. But baker didn't stop there. He also accused johnson of bribery and soliciting prostitution baker testified that he had repeatedly prevented a washington. Prostitute named mrs cobb from visiting johnson at the white house. Baker told the committee that mrs cobb had related to him. Johnson's methods for communicating with his friends down south baker also allege that mrs com claimed that she sold pardons to former rebels. On johnson's behalf baker was unable to provide evidence to substantiate his claims in the wake of beggars testimony even the radical republicans were skeptical as one member of the judiciary committee explained. It is doubtful whether baker has in any one thing told the truth even by accident but during the trial there was another explosive piece of new information unearthed by the judiciary committee. The existence of john wilkes booth diary most explosive of all there were pages missing the question of who removed. Those pages. Is one of history's unanswered mysteries. Some accused johnson of covering his tracks by tampering with evidence. Others accused edwin stanton suggesting that he was complicit in lincoln's assassination that he removed the pages to protect himself in the end. Due to lack of evidence. The first attempt to impeach andrew johnson came up short but the radical republicans did not back off a fight. They took the battle to a different front in the spring of eighteen. Sixty seven congress simultaneously passed two laws that set the stage for a political showdown between the president and his ornery war secretary edwin stanton. It's march fourth eighteen. Sixty seven just after ten. Am in the president's room at the capitol building president. Andrew johnson has assembled his entire cabinet for an emergency session. On capitol hill. Congress has just passed a new law. A military appropriations bill. The bill is unusual for several reasons. One it restricts. Johnson's authority of the army's military occupation of the south to the bill was not written by congress not entirely it was authored in part. By johnson's war secretary edwin stanton as johnson plops a copy of the bill down on his desk in front of him stanton silently observed from the back of the room. Question is simple gentleman. Should i sign it. Or should i issue a veto. I want everyone to weigh in on this. Johnson's secretary of the interior orville hickman browning weeds off mr president. This bill is an attack on your presidency. Curtails authority over the army. It makes it illegal for you to issue military orders without the express approval of general grant. You must issue a veto. But the radicals have the numbers in congress mr browning what good is a symbolic veto in the interest of protecting the office of the presidency. You must reject the bill symbolic or not. Your veto will certainly find. Its way before the courts supposed courtside with congress. The law is unconstitutional. Sir and the radicals in congress noah browning sets a piece of paper on johnson's desk mr president i've taken the liberty of drafting veto signed it. Sir defend your presidency. Johnson picks up the paper and considers it for a moment. Then he turns to his war. Secretary stares daggers at him. Someone has an argument to make in favor of this bill. Now is the time to make it as the cabinet debates the appropriations bill. Johnson doesn't take his eyes off. Edwin stanton stanton hardly says a word. Johnson knows stanton is the author of the bill and he knows his war secretary wants nothing more than to limit his presidential authority after hearing both sides of the question. Johnson presses stanton mr stanton. Yes miss i wish to know. Your thoughts on this ari bill. The decision is yours. Mr president yes. But i wish to know your opinion. I do not approve of veto mr president. I thought you might not a secretary. Seward explained sir. If you veto the bill the army will be thrown into disarray. name now more than ever the military's critical to stability in the southern states. You must give general. Grant the authority to uphold the law to keep the peace and to do his job. Suppose i disagree. As i said mr president. The decision is yours. I do not wish to jeopardize our troops on the ground. then you must sign up. Mr president johnson hesitates for a moment and he reaches for pen signs. The bill i will be issuing a statement of protest commerce. You have any objections to that. Mr stanton do. You approve i approve. You're taking whatever course. you may think. Best president johnson signed the first bill. A bill limiting his military authority making it illegal for the president to issue military orders that were not i approved by the head of the army. It was a bill. Stanton wrote an bill. Stanton wanted past the second. Bill was the tenure of office act introduced in march of eighteen sixty seven and it was even more controversial throughout his presidency. Johnson aggressively dismantled president. Lincoln's government removing over thousand lincoln loyalists and replacing them with johnson men. The radical republicans in congress fear johnson. Mike go after. Lincoln's cabinet as well in no uncertain terms the tenure of office act stated that just as the senate must give its approval for cabinet level positions. The senate must also give approval for firing them. Johnson could not dismiss any senate appointed executive without the senate's blessing edwin. Stanton was one of the men protected again. Johnson asked stanton his opinion of the law. This time stanton feigned outrage. He emphatically urged johnson to wield his veto power stanton called the tenure of office act unconstitutional and derided congress for going too far. Johnson heated stanton's of ice and vetoed the bill. What expected congress wielded. Its two thirds majority and pass a law. Anyway it's likely that stanton's outrage was pure theatrics. It's also likely that the tenure of office act was stanton's brainchild indeed. The radical republicans had passed the law specifically to protect stanton their greatest ally in the white house congressman. Stevens have been clever with the language in the tenure of office act section. Six stated that violations of law were high misdemeanors. This was a direct reference to language and article two section for the us constitution. The president vice president and all civil officers of the united states shall be removed from office on impeachment four and fiction of treason bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors the radical republicans were laying a trap an impeachment trap for president johnson and in the end johnson would take the bait. Hey i might corey the host of wandering show against the odds and our next season. We're bringing you the story of john mccain an american hero and naval pilot who was shot down by the enemy over vietnam and taken in as a prisoner of war in this grueling survival story mccain must find a way to stay alive through solitary confinement and brutal beatings for over five years. It's an epic story of courage. Grit and how the battle to stay alive. Changes john mccain forever. Subscribe to against the odds on apple. Podcast amazon music. The wonder app or wherever. You're listening right now. A by the summer of eighteen sixty johnson was ready to rid himself of edwin stanton johnson and his allies suspected that stanton and the radical republicans in congress were conspiring to undermine his presidency as part of the earlier impeachment inquiry. Congress had subpoenaed johnson's personal finance records. In an attempt to prove johnson had been e- legally selling off pardons to southerners though. Johnson hamden hawed. He ultimately complied with congress's request. The records had not produced any evidence but the subpoena had angered johnson and his allies in may navy secretary welles wrote in his diary. No facts no charges. No mouth conduct are known or preferred more scandalous. Villainy never disgraced the country. Adding insult to injury. Congress continued to pass laws that limited johnson's authority over reconstruction and put power into the hands of war. Secretary stanton finally for johnson enough was enough so he hatched a plan to make his scheme work. He would again need the help of his general. In chief ulysses s grant a general grant was not a perfect man. lie johnson. Granted often been accused of drunkenness but his military service had earned him widespread respect as his colleague general. Sherman said general grant is a great general. I know him well. He stood by me. When i was crazy and i stood by him when he was drunk. Now sir we stand by always not everyone agreed. Navy secretary welles called grant an ignoramus who had no political principles and no intelligent ideas of constitutional government. General grant was at his core a soldier. He was not instinctively savvy to the political games being played in washington but in the late summer of eighteen sixty seven grant would have to learn through trial by fire on august first. Eighteen sixty seven johnson summoned grant has office and made his intentions known. He wanted to be rid of edwin stanton and he wanted grant to replace him. Grant and johnson had not always seen eye. Since the war's end johnson had grown more sympathetic to the south plight grant had grown more aligned with the radical republicans. The two men butted heads often. When johnson offered grant the role of interim war secretary grant bridled insisting the stanton's removal was a violation of the tenure of office act. Johnson also expressed his desire to remove general sheridan one of grant's subordinates. Man tasked with overseeing reconstruction in the south grant was stunned but grant was also a soldier and president. Johnson was his superior grant would do as he was instructed after the meeting grant return to his office and drafted a letter explaining his opposition. To johnson's decision in the letter. Grant insisted that the removal of stanton and sharon was illegal and improper but johnson. Move forward anyway. Four days later on. August fifth the president sent stanton a message public considerations of a high character. Constrain me to say that your resignation as secretary of war will be accepted. Standing quickly sent his reply. How considerations of a high character which alone induced me to continue at the head of this department. Constrain me not to resign again. Johnson summoned grant to the white house this time he demanded to know if grant had a personal problem with him that might interfere with his duties. As interim more secretary for an expressed johnson that their disagreement was over policy over the fourteenth amendment and the reconstruction acts. It was nothing personal on august twelfth. Johnson stanton this time modulating his position in a bit of political strategy. Johnson was not firing. Stanton the letter explained only suspending him and pointing grant as interim war secretary. In the end the senate would have to weigh in standen had no choice. He surrendered the war department. To general grant with stanton out of the way johnson went right to work. I he removed general sheridan then general. Daniel sickles sickles had aggressively enforcing reconstruction laws in the south which made him. Johnson's political enemy grant was furious. He protested the decision but there was little elsie could do johnson replay sheridan and sickles with conservative generals who would defer to the southern state governments over the military. Next johnson passed an amnesty proclamation. Giving full pardon to all southerners except for certain classes of confederate officers and government officials throughout the late fall and winter of eighteen sixty seven congress went back and forth on whether or not to impeach andrew johnson. The problem was a lack of criminal evidence after months of investigations. The house judiciary committee issued its findings. Johnson wasn't immoral man a bigot but he had violated no law. The radical republicans worried that impeaching johnson. On purely moral grounds would be seen as a partisan political maneuver so in december of eighteen. Sixty seven the republican controlled. Judiciary committee again voted against moving forward with impeachment but on the question of edwin stanton. They fired a shot across. Johnson's bound on january eleventh. The senate voted in favor of reinstating. Stanton the next morning. General grant gathered. His things composed a letter to johnson explaining his decision to step aside and surrendered his office back to edwin stanton less than an hour later. Stanton took possession of the war department furious at the generals betrayal johnson attacked grant in the press calling him a duplicitous trader. Grant responded by writing a letter that would set. Johnson's impeachment in motion in the letter. Grant recalled that president. Johnson had indeed to violate the tenure of office. Act that he had wanted grant to remove stanton with or without the senate's approval. It was only grants refusal that prevented johnson from sacking stanton on february third. The house clerk read grants slaughter to the members of congress. It was thanks to this letter that the house had their first piece of evidence. Johnson had solicited grant violate the tenure of office. Act days later congressman thaddeus. Stevens was hard at work on a new impeachment resolution on february tenth. The house transferred the impeachment inquiry from the judiciary committee to the committee on reconstruction as chair. Thaddeus stevens was now in control of the inquiry to vindicate himself. Johnson released letters from multiple cabinet members backing his decision to suspend stanton. Johnson's argument was that he had not actually fired. Stanton even after grants betrayal though. He was well within his rights. He had not taken punitive action against the general on the floor of the house thaddeus stevens. Attack this position. If the president statement is true and he has been guilty of a high official misdemeanor. If the general statement is true and johnson has been guilty of a high official misdemeanor by suspending stanton johnson and walked right up to the precipice of his own impeachment in february eighteen. Sixty eight he would jump off the ledge. You'd leave congress with little choice but to take action. It's late february. Eighteen sixty eight at the war department in washington general. Lorenzo thomas storms through the front door of the war department armed colonel and aside inside his office secretary of war. Edwin stanton is conversing with a handful of republican congressman as thomas barges into stanton's office. One of the congressmen grabs a pen and paper and takes notes of the ensuing. Standoff mr thomas. What are you doing that secretary. Thomas days ago president johnson fired edwin stanton. He named lorenzo. Thomas interim war secretary in order thomas to take possession of stanton's office. Thomas tried to follow. Johnson's orders but stanton responded by having thomas arrested and thrown in jail. Now out on bail. Thomas is none too happy. I'm the secretary of war at interim. And i am ordered by the president of the united states to take charge of this office but stanton stummer. I order you to repair to your own room exercise. Your office has adjutant general. I shall not do so then. You may stand there if you please mr thomas but you will attempt to act as secretary of war at your peril. I shall act as secretary of war. It broad smile spreads across stanton's face. And what may i ask is so amusing that you claim to be here as secretary of war and refuse to obey my orders as secretary of war. This is no laughing. Matter mr stanton. I have orders from the president. You will surrender this office and turnover to me. all official correspondences just then stanton turns one of his subordinates. Fetch a bottle for the general user. Come have a seat william lorenzo. Thomas the sort of man who never says no to a drink so he joined stanton for a moment of repre- thomas wehrley takes seat cross from stanton. Next time you have me arrested. Please do not do it before. I get something to eat and nothing to eat or drink. All day stanton laughs. He puts his hand on thomas his neck and tussles his hair stanton pours two glasses of scotch and says with a smile now. This at least is neutral ground after their drink. Thomas was forced to accept a hard fact about edwin stanton a man who is often called rough and despotic us. Also stubborn as a mule. Stanton did not leave his office. Lorenzo thomas was forced to return to the white house in defeat after their confrontation stanton barricaded himself. Inside the department stanton was in poor health wracked with an asthmatic condition that had plagued him throughout his life but still stanton refused to leave his office even to see his doctor or visit his family. With few exceptions he would remain in the war department for months until the matter of johnson's impeachment was settled. Once and for all on february twenty fifth thaddeus stevens stood before the members of the house and declared we do impeach andrew johnson president of the united states of high crimes and misdemeanors. The impeachment resolution passed the house along party. Lines one twenty six to forty seven based largely on the testimony of general lorenzo thomas. The house would ultimately adopt eleven articles of impeachment. The majority of the articles focused on the various legal ramifications of johnson's violation of the tenure of office. Act the last. Two articles articles ten eleven got to the heart of the matter. Johnson had attempted to undermine congress and its laws as president. He'd been unmindful of the high duties of his oath and he sought to bring into disgrace ridicule hatred contempt and reproach the congress of the united states on wednesday march fourth house presented articles to the senate. Where johnson's presidency would be put on trial the next day. The court impeachment convened and sal impeach chase chief. Justice of the supreme court took the oath as presiding officer throughout the trial. Which would last through may of eighteen sixty eight rumors in the press. Were rampant many papers. Claimed that stanton had called up troops to defend his right to the war. Department others claimed johnson had called up the southern militias to defend his presidency behind the scenes. Political maneuvering was abundant supporters of johnson. Scheme to seduce senators to their side. Allegedly friends of johnson went so far as to buy votes with a slush fund of one hundred fifty thousand dollars the equivalent of over two million in today's money in order to convict johnson. The republicans needed thirty six senators to find johnson. Guilty in the end. Republicans would be one vote. Short on may sixteenth. Johnson was acquitted on the eleventh article which was believed to be the surest bet for the radical republicans. The tally was thirty five guilty. Nineteen not guilty. Ten days later after german the senate voted on the first and second article both votes achieve the same results. The republicans gave up a motion to adjourn passed. The senate and the trial was over. Stanton had no choice but to surrender the war department. His health failing him stanton would not belong for the world. His final act of public service would be on the campaign trail where he would be an advocate for his candidate of choice. In the upcoming presidential election general grant president johnson had been acquitted but his reputation and his pride had been severely wounded. Johnson blamed two men at win. Stanton and general grant during the impeachment. Kerfuffle johnson had told reporters that by opposing him grant was playing a political game and trying to position himself as the radical candidate for the presidency but grant had not angled for the white house had only done what he thought was right when his wife julia if he wanted the presidency grant replied no but i do not see that i have anything to say about the convention is about to assemble and from all. I hear they will nominate me. I suppose if i am nominated i will be elected. Ulysses grant was never a political man in fact only voted in one presidential contest in eighteen. Fifty six when you voted for democrat. James buchanan the civil war and the fight for reconstruction and caused grant to abandon the democrats gravitate towards the republican party by may of eighteen sixty eight durant was starting to realize that his fame popularity war hero status put him in a unique position to unite. The republican party win the white house and protect free slaves from a growing threat in the south the ku klux klan. It's may eighteen. Sixty eight in washington. General grant sits at his desk at his office at army headquarters hard at work. The knock at the door hardly breaks his concentration man. France military aid. Adam bado enters the room with a stack of papers in his hand. These are few general dispatches from the convention in chicago is there any word no sir. Not as of yet. I'll let you know. The moment word arrives. Set them on my desk. Yes sir but no does as he's told but he doesn't leave grant to his work. He lingers for a moment. Is that all surp- will you accept the nomination soldier always to a student. The dough can see from the expression on grants face. The prospect of the presidency weighs heavily on him but does does his best to offer comfort. May i bring you anything sir. No that will yes sir. But before below has a chance to exit. He stopped short when he hears the sound of heavy panting clumping footsteps making their way up the stairs in the hallway outside like a bull in the china shop. Former secretary of war edwin m stanton burst into grants office. General grant leaps to his feet perturbed. Don't you know how to knock. It's done once. Stanton catches his breath and gathered himself before he speaks. I come to tell you that you have been nominated by. The republican party for president of the united states below turns to look at grant on face but doses no signs of joy or exultation no adaptation despair grant is stone-faced. Without a word. He says only the room please. Yes channel horse. Ask stanton and bedell give him the room transits down at his desk he takes out a fresh piece of paper grabs a pen and tries to write an acceptance speech. But the words don't come easily in the end grant will speak from the heart. His speech recorded for posterity. by adam. bodo read gentlemen being entirely on accustomed to public speaking with the desire to cultivate the power. It is impossible for me to find appropriate language to thank you for this demonstration. All that i can say is that to whatever position. I may be called by your will. I shall endeavor to discharge its duties with fidelity and honesty of purpose of my rectitude and the performance of public duties. You will have to judge for yourselves by the record before you walk in late may eighteen sixty eight just a few days. After andrew johnson's acquittal general grant was nominated as the republican candidate for president schuyler. Colfax speaker of the house from indiana was selected as grants running in his acceptance letter. Grant wrote four words. The summed up the spirit of his campaign. Where's that would become the official slogan of the grant colfax ticket let us have peace. Republicans had lost the impeachment bowel but they had succeeded in weakening. Andrew johnson at the democratic national convention in early july democrats cut ties with johnson and rallied. Instead around horatio. Seymour a popular former governor of new york. The democratic platform was an appeal to the country's bigotry. Democrats chided radical republicans in congress calling reconstruction the tyrannical work of despots. Who are hell bent on. Subjugating the south under the banner of negro supremacy the republican platform played to the other side of america. They attack democrats as the party of disloyal traitors their motto not every democrat was a rebel but every rebel was a democrat. The election of eighteen sixty eight was therefore a referendum. On reconstruction slavery had been eradicated by the thirteenth amendment and the fourteenth amendment which was meant to guarantee black citizenship have been ratified in july eighteen sixty eight but the question of how best to put the country back together still loomed large so did an even bigger question. Whose country would it be in the eighteen. Sixty eight campaign horatio seymour. broke from. President launched a campaign tour throughout the north. The democrats motto was a clear appeal to bigotry. This is a white man's country. Let white men. Rule one of seymour's fiercest. Campaigners was his vice presidential nominee former union. General frank blair just. Before the convention blair had demanded that the democratic nominee declare the reconstruction acts null and void compel the army to undo its usurpation at the south and allow the white people to reorganize their own governments in late. July blair was on the attack telling the new york times that general grant was a tyrant who wanted to subjugate millions of white people in the south fixed to the earth with his bandits. Blair promised to prevent the people of all races from being driven out of the country or trodden underfoot by an inferior and semi barbarous race on the campaign trail. Democrats mocked and ridiculed grant one popular anti grant song went. I am caffeine grant of the black marines. The stupidest man that ever was seen democrats painted grant drunk a race traitor and a useful idiot for the radical republicans in congress grant did not openly campaign nor did he defend himself against seymour and blair's attacks taking his cues from george washington. Grant remained a silent spectator to the wicked game. What in the election of eighteen sixty eight that game turned violent in many states like south carolina and mississippi. Black americans were able to vote for the first time between grant and see more choice for the black community was largely an easy one as the famous abolitionist. Crusader frederick douglass wrote. Does anybody want a revised edition of andrew johnson in the presidential chair for the next four years but as many black americans prepare to cast the first vote of their lives for grant many white americans violently resisted throughout the eighteen sixty eight campaign the ku klux klan which recruited of thousands of new members in eighteen sixty eight alone terrorize black-americans and white republicans in the south many of these white republicans were what southerners called carpetbaggers northern transplants. Who moved down south to facilitate reconstruction southern democrats did not take kindly to their presence in louisiana democrats destroyed. The republican newspaper office ran its editor out of town by force in georgia. A mob of armed whites opened fire on a crowd of largely black americans marching peacefully in support of general grant. These were not isolated incidents during the eighteen sixty eight campaign violence against the friedman was rampant president. Johnson's white house was no help. In the face of this violence. Johnson looked the other way but in the end the clans intimidation tactics. Were not enough to overcome general. Grant's popularity on november third grant went to the polls to participate in only his second presidential election. You voted republican all the way down the ballot safer one category. He left president blank after voting grant spent the evening at a friend's home where telegraph was set up so he could receive real time updates but according to adam bado grant was calm and collected as below. Would later write. I often saw grant show more interest over a game of cards than on that night when the presidency was played for around midnight the final results came in grant had one. You walked outside to the front porch of his friends. Home made a speech to a gathering crowd. Grant kept it brief responsibilities of the position. I feel but accept them without fear. If i can have the same support which has been given to me. Thus far grant won the popular vote. I just over three hundred thousand ballots winning all but eight states. Grants victory was a true electoral route. Two hundred fourteen to eighty with nearly every southern state going to grant the two notable exceptions were louisiana and georgia both hotbeds of clan violence and voter intimidation clan. Violence was rampant and other southern states as well including tennessee and south carolina still in the face of intimidation and under threat. Hundreds of thousands of freed slaves showed up to the polls cast their vote for the republican party and help put general grant in the white house. The grant administration would impart at least make good on. Its promise to black america. What the path towards progress would be riddled with opposition as the resistance in the south grew more organized more oppressive and more violent france. I would also be beset by scandal leading many to wonder if he would be the second president to be impeached on the next episode of wicked game. The election of eighteen seventy two during his first term. President grant faces down the k. k. K. a slew of scandals and political movement aimed at deposing his presidency and turning back the clock on social. Don't miss a single week of our marsh from seventeen eighty nine to twenty twenty. Hit the subscribe button in your podcast app now. This show is supported by you. Our listeners please give us a rating and leave a review but the single best way to help this show grow is to tell others share with your friends and family and find us on social media at wicked game pod. And i'm lindsey graham another way to support. This show is to go to wicked game. Podcast dot com members. There get early access to add free episodes as well as bonus content only available to patrons find out more at wicked game. Podcast dot com and about our reenactments in most cases. We can't know exactly what was sent but everything in our show is heavily researched and based on surviving historical documents. Wicked game as an airship production created hosted and executive produced by me. Lindsey graham sound design by derrick barons co executive produced by stephen walters in association with ritual productions. This episode was written and researched by stephen walters. Fact checking by greg jackson and seattle salazar from the podcast history. That doesn't suck music by. Lindsey cramped distributed by wondering.
Inside the Episode | 11
"Rob mccallum born of the producers of eighteen sixty five welcome to inside the episode episode eleven of eighteen sixty five joining me as always stephen walters and eric are chiller. Howdy howdy the writers of the welcome back guys so so you know it's been a while we recorded a lot of these inside the episodes awhile back and now me meeting and talking about come again now than it is out and on online and available for people to hear so that is very exciting today for the first time so this was the actual debut day of the entire series so you guys are are starting starting to get feedback now <hes> from people who are listening to it and and seemed to be as excited about it as i have been for a very long time so it's really great to know that this is out there and the thing that people are receiving and responding to but we've got a jump ahead now because those people are just listening to episodes one one and two but we are in episode eleven where mary surat has hung and there are consequences and we are. We are learning about those in this episode and the death of mary. Surat is one of the <hes> more controversial aspects of the the real history of the story of edwin stanton the culmination of the tribunal. She's executed. She's the first woman executed acute in united states history and under some dubious circumstances because not everyone in the country agrees with edwin stanton's a belief that she should be put to death in her crimes are deserving of that eric. Do you have anything to add to this idea about. Let me ask you. Was mary innocent or was she guilty your opinion. A unit grappled on that a lot <hes> she was definitely guilty. Question is was she guilty of receiving or to the point of receiving the death penalty yeah. How far is it on. It was she. There were a lot of other conspirators that were a whole lot more involved than she was. <hes> same arnold and <hes> mike mike lachlan <hes> they were both involved in the kidnapping plot and there were some said oh lachlan was they are waiting to kill stanton that night and those people people were whisked away off to dry tortuga and given life in jail which didn't last very long for them. <hes> samuel mudd was whisked away and then you know we have mary who was hung so it you just have to ask yourself was what she did in her complicity. Worthy of hanging in the others were only riot. It's like did the punishment fit the crime exactly right yeah. I think i think honest. Historians probably would not disagree with the fact that she was guilty. I think they might disagree with with her punishment in the end. I have a question another question. Can i ask questions. Ask away well. My question is eric because i you and i have talked. I kind of hope you guys would have worked this out before. You wrote the series but that's fine. Let's work it out. No my question for you is which of course we've talked about this extensively but is it true that edwin stanton withheld the clemency request from president johnson well. There's again a lot of debate in we're filtering history through people's opinions that either hated him or loved him. <hes> the johnson side says that they never received the clemency request and if he had seen it he would have followed it and not hung mary. The stanton side says oh we gave it to you. It was in the giant stack of papers we handed you and then people r- about that with saying well they stuck it purposefully at the very very bottom of the stack kind of mixed in there were johnson wouldn't see it but isn't that to play devil's advocate isn't that historical perspective belied read by the fact that johnson did in fact have the ability to save her life when he received the writ of habeas corpus from mary surat attorney and yet chose not to try her again again in a public trial which brought us to why would he not want it in a public trial right well. I suppose you could take the point of view that johnson had to do for the puck for if if you think of this in terms of political optics he had to do what he did because if he countermanded what the military tribunal the conclusion that they had arrived at then and that would make him look like something of a hypocrite because he himself gave stanton the ability to declare martial law and to try boost conspirators in the tribunal so to countermand their viewpoint on it might have made him look suspect so in some ways he was painted into a corner politically and maybe you know as we as you postulated in the story by some specific and direct intentional maneuverings by stanton paint them into that corner and the previous episode <hes> stanton orders l. astara to the arsenal <hes> and adds her to the witness list that the prosecution louis pain powell which of course it's seems pretty obvious to me at least in my reading of history l. star wouldn't have even known who lewis powell was and that was sort of eric and i thought well why did he do that and called to witness for the one person that absolutely was not making any effort to defend himself yeah so we sort of you know our extrapolation there. Was that okay well. This is about something else. This was a threat well. Let's talk about how that then played out in in episode twelve so clearly stanton has lost all all of his cards. He has very little power. He's been relegated talk about some of the fallout with johnson yeah. This is sort of stanton for our telling painting of him. It's kind of his dark night of the seoul moment. You know it's it's he's lost and i think as much as he wanted justice in his is convicted he was that mary surat deserved the justice that she received you know i think it came at a great cost for him and i think now in the aftermath of her death <hes> his back is against the wall and i think he feels defeated and he he did prove his case against the four conspirators and obviously had it hung but he failed to prove his case against the south failed to really the draw direct lines jefferson davis and in the jefferson davis gets part and it's also true that stanton felt that the decision he made about mary surat haunted him for the rest of his life. I believe there's a line recess. Every day. I see that woman's face staring back at me and i fear that she'll haunt me for the rest of my days. That's actually if that was actually from a letter that he sent to a friend land show in our version of the story it is langston that comes to him finds him when he is at home and powerless and kind of moping hoping if you're you know you know licking wounds and kind of have given up and i i feel like that's a fictional construct one hundred percent we have such. It's a great character and we have we should we should talk about it. We haven't talked about the fact that that's william jackson. Harper does william jackson harper for any of you fans of the good place who is an incredible actor both on stage and on film and and dallas in the dallas guy yeah that's right and so i actually saw will in a play at a now defunct theater called plano repertory theatre theater years and years ago. I i want to fifteen years ago in a play called orange a which was a modern retelling of the story romeo juliet with an all male cast and will played the makuuchi attrac- back and i remember seeing him in that production and thinking wow that's that's one of the best actors i've ever seen live and in person we became friends and stayed friends throughout the years and of course will it doesn't masterful job as is john mercer langston so langston comes and gives this powerful speech about what is happening to the friedman across the south and the the consequences like who hugh. Who are you standing in your nice houses. Feel bad for yourself right now. These people are dying. Do something about it yeah i. I think that moment is the moment that langston sort of through modern through a modern lens langston confronts stanton with his own privilege in a way it's right as bad as it may seem to you and your place at privilege think about how awful it is for those less fortunate than you and the message works and so- stanton and langston worked together along with john bingham <hes> played masterfully by mr rod mccall thank you and <hes> they work together to subvert the will of of president johnson and inside light of this decision is really where we get into the constitutional crisis of the eighteen sixties where you have on one hand you have congress passing laws and you have on the other hand johnson what's in refusing to enforce those laws and that of course culminates in what happens in the next episode which is teased at the very end of this episode which is that bingham an stanton stanton and the united states congress proceed to lay an impeachment trap for the president yeah so this is the idea that like we're going to tell the president. He can't do you something and then we know he's absolutely going to go ahead and do that and that's going to be the trap to an interesting because wells is is warning johnson the whole time like this is a trap they are. They're still out to get you. This is not done so interesting. Definitely stay tuned and keep listening because i think you're going to be really interested to see how that plays out <hes> another device or an element that we have in this one that <hes> we haven't had as much as there's there's kind of a rapid happened fire back and forth with the telegraph's of the day talking about the events that begin to happen part of it is just because things were happening really fast. Also we needed to cover a lot of ground in our story and i really like the way that you guys came up with to get through this. I think that is one of the most exciting scenes with langston reading reading telegraphs and and reading statements from congress and bingham reasons day was from congress and johnson reading the responses and it just really really moves well in this yeah. I think that this sequence in the podcast earlier in one of these inside the episodes. We talked about well. What are the disadvantages or the pros and cons of writing for radio well. This is one of the advantages because we're able to span basically three years and cover some of the major historical events that occurred during that time from the perspective of our characters keep keep their intention alive and their goals and purposes the keep those balls in the air at the same time. I mean if you were to play that out in t._v. Show it would not work. I mean you know if you were just to have this sort of like montage where there are people like telegraph sending messages tie which is the images of the telegraph tapping away like three or four of them in sepia tone. Eh dates flying by yes. It is important to for the the listeners you guys need to do. Keep up with that like the dates fly by on that section but we are are now doing a fairly considerable jump forward in time we jumped from eighteen sixty five to eighteen sixty eight so we're we're not gonna re title the last two who after the last two episodes of the series to a different date but <hes> but we have now moved ahead we're now the events of eighteen sixty eight and i have to say this is is moving into a territory of history that i knew absolutely nothing about. I was not aware of these events. I was not aware of an impeachment and and i did not know that there was a historical precedent right well enough and johnson was the first and i mean if it sounds like we're making this up. Let me just let me just sort of rehash what it is basically andrew. Johnson is impeached for firing the head of his military apparatus which sounds like something that is ripped right onto the headlines today. Hey there is a lot of curiosity manifested if you will about whether or not <hes> our current president's decision to fire james komi might result in the very same thing of course these circumstances are a little different but certainly it's very interesting. I think the the other thing that really jumped out at me and researching was the the first of all we're talking about the two opposing forces of johnson and stanton being bound by this military tribunal. They both from their own perspective. We've agreed that they can't interfere with it and we see obviously play out through the through the tribunal in what happens with mary hanging but we see the very clear ramifications of that of what happened in the south with both the story of the young boy having his arm shot off which is actually pulled directly from the friedman bureau files because they're documenting all of these letters from the friedman's bureau from the friedman officers that were on the ground of all of these whole riffing things that were happening down south yes <hes> people that were being shot or killed just for looking at a white person the wrong way because of the direct consequences of stanton denton not proving his case against the south it has left an entire four million people down south fending for themselves in a basically a wolves olds then of people that want to give them absolutely no rights <hes> no protections and horrible things are happening. <hes> to the freed slaves slaves downside and of course <hes> you know the other way to couch the statement that you just made is is that because of the systemic bigotry inside of the country at that time uh-huh bodied by andrew johnson his policies and his willful disregard for the laws of congress there are four million people who suffer down south and edwin stanton then takes it upon himself to take the fight to the next level and one of the events that really launched all of that forward was the new orleans rights of eighteen eighteen sixty six a group of people gathered to talk about the constitution they were having constitutional convention and in the streets streets <hes> celebrating the constitutional progress that they're having and a posse rides up of deputized officials and with the two hundred people that are gathered in the street they mow them down slaughter them slaughter them thirty four african americans dead <hes> three white <hes> abolition <hes> that were gathered there and one of the things that we see play out a little bit is that there was zero prosecution prosecute of no consequence to them no consequence <hes> which is representative of what was happening all over the south and the leadership of the confederate federal army didn't go away when the war ended those who had the means went back to their businesses <hes> plantations in the like of course they under slightly different circumstances his but a lot of them went into politics a lot of them held offices in municipalities at the state level and even in congress and a lot of officers yeah walked directly back back into congress which they had just treasonously gone to war with and now they're walking back in and making policy and on the mantle of states rights which was the very thing that they believe they fought the war for states rights to write what to own slaves to own human beings under that same mantle of states rights they wage a war are against equality so stanton wild defeated is motivated by the reality check that links and gives him and it's also for us the audience realizing what's happening and how bad it is at this time says okay. We're gonna. We're gonna elevate. It's almost like we're. We're going to the nuclear option game on yet and i'm back in this game. I'm not gonna sit at home and feel sorry for myself. I'm going to pick up my pen and make it into a sword and the trap now is laid and we're gonna find find out how that all plays out in episode twelve of eighteen sixty five steve eric. Thank you so much for being with us and you and if you'd like to support this kind of storytelling and ensure that we can continue to tell more stories like these supporters at patron dot com slash eighteen sixty five members there get advanced access to episodes bonus features and free copy of the soundtrack album. That's patriot dot com slash eighteenth sixty five. I'm rob mccollum. Thanks for listening to eighteen sixty five inside be upset.
Inside the Episode | 14
"Greetings everyone this rob McCallum welcome to another inside the episode so eighteen sixty five this for episode fourteen one of our extra content episodes that we put together for you to hear the story of John John Wilkes booth and the conspiracy which is where this entire process started with two young fresh face playwrights at Baylor University wrote a play about John Wilkes booth. Those two men are with me here right now. Stephen Walters and Erica Cello welcome back Todd Martin Voice Actors as well we finally get to here's a little bit more of Erica chillers find voice work as Lachlan in this so congratulations. It's very nice to hear all after me lucky charms oh definitely don't cut that out of so leaving got and send your letters to Er Chila at no so yeah we were talking inside the episode recording about how this was a lot of the original content the characters the plays the writing the lines the dialogue that you guys fell. I love within the early days and then eventually didn't fit into the arc of the story that we were telling about stanton so you just decided let's do episodes odes just on this side of the story what's been very therapeutic during this process because we've been able to bring back to life some characters that we had to rip out of the play a rip out of the PODCAST We really didn't leave too much on the cutting room floor. I think there were maybe a couple of characters of scenes that we we ended up writing that we just never used but for the most part through the entire process. The podcast has enabled us to save a lot of that work in and I take time wasn't wasted yeah. The beauty podcasting is that you can just keep telling the story as long as you have story to tell because you don't have to worry about getting people out of the theater in under three hours true or two and a half or one half which is my preference in Theodore but so so. Let's let's dive into this episode. This picks up with a very saucy opening scene. Yes yeah a little a little Ella Star John Wilkes booth sexy play that with the kids in the car yeah we maybe should have told you that in the inside episode thirteen don't if you've gotten your nine year old really excited about American history. Maybe don't start with this one. I should have said that I apologize but yeah and and and super awkward to record for all of us because we know these actors really well and they know each other really well but they're true professionals and had no problem with one of the the things that I I would say about these booth bonus episodes would be I set out to kind of structure the whole story together we considered the idea of of telling the story of John Wilkes booth leading up to the assassination overlaid with the story of Edwin Stanton leading up to the impeachment of Andrew Johnson but what we realized is very quickly and that by the way is the original play was structured. It was all of the events leading up to Lincoln's assassination put on top of all of the events leading up to the death of John Wilkes booth it really quickly once we expanded the story into the larger questions about Edwin Stanton and his journey and the Friedman and you know the consequences of reconstruction. We realized that booths booths story doesn't really belong the question of John. Wilkes booth is what makes a man a monster but the question of Edwin Stanton is. How do we respond as a nation in his individuals is to answer so the question of what makes a man monsters is a unique question and inside of that very general umbrella? The part of the story that we really chose to focus on was the Love Triangle Angle between John Wilkes Booth Lucy Hale. The daughter of John Parker Hale a very infamous abolitionist senator and of course President Lincoln Son Robert so that yet that triangle was one of the things that I just said was. How is this not the headline that we're all talking about it and then everyone is learning earning about when we learned about this assassination. It's so salacious this I was like there's no way this can be true or I would have known about this while they tried to talk about it. Then they retracted attracted on then they shut it down because you control the media that is an it's fascinating because it's the kind of things and now it's like battling in the media now. Alan claiming that something is fake news when it's real like those those are not new tactics the things that we see happen today obviously go pretty far back from the moment that that. Lincoln was assassinated estimated we meet John Wilkes. Booth is a you know an actor. working with his brother. Edwin who at the beginning was a unionist. Yes he was four keeping the union together. He was not a a southern supporter and then we saw him historically he spent some time in Richmond long before the war and I really liked the southern people in liked the way that he was treated down there and he was it was the first place he felt like he was a star because he was kind of a crappy. Dave is always in the shadow of his very famous father and then his very famous brother and so like the south was his territory where he caught out and kind of be a big deal so that was one of my questions is was he ever a truly sympathized with the south or was it just this is what I can say that these people will respond to oh no he was during his time in the southeast fully radicalized iced and I in fact where he breaks from what Eric just said about being a unionist is over you issue of slavery and as of course as Abraham Lincoln evolves in his position these publicly John Wilkes booth ir grows in his opposition intensifies eighteen sixty five is sponsored by better help in eighteen in sixty five. Sigmund Freud was a nine year old boy living in Freiburg in a part of the Austrian Empire. That's now the Czech Republic thirty years later he and Joseph Royer published studies studies on hysteria in which they describe a talking cure since then therapy has evolved but talking remains at its core and if you're thinking you might need to talk to someone no one but are uncertain about how are the time and cost better help. Is there for you. It's not a crisis line. It's not self help in his professional counseling done securely online within twenty four hours a sign up. You can be talking with a licensed counselor about your issues. Specialists trained to listen and help. You find yourself again log. Look into your account anytime from anywhere message with your counselor or scheduled video phone sessions no travel no waiting rooms maximum privacy. It's more convenient and more affordable able than traditional counseling and financial aid is available visit better help dot com slash eighteen sixty five. That's better h. e. l. p. slash eighteen sixty five and joined the over five hundred thousand people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. Get Ten percent off your first month and better help dot com slash eighteen sixty sixty five so he becomes fully radicalized. The war is in full swing. What is John Wilkes booth doing it this time well. He started smuggling medicine flaunting. He was smuggling clearly he was using his trunk apparently gently to smuggle things as his theaters his theater truck in a very Christopher marlowe fashion he was using his acting profession to commit espionage right and at that time for actors they had to travel around to make a living they typically purchase their own costumes props in cooter mall and put it into a big trunk and carried it with them wherever they went in. That's how he smuggled his stuff over the past. The blockades is is acting brother. Edwin who was considered the greatest actor in America time got very mad at him for losing some of his doublets in his his acting props and costumes so we do get to hear from the other booth brother Edwin the more a famous of the tube voiced in in this episode by Alex Organ Jail School of Drama Alex Oregon say that he hates it. who it is now the artistic director of Second Thought Theatre where this play debuted. Yes acushnet back in the day and speaking of back in the day. Montgomery Sutton is voicing the character character of booth and who originated the role the role in the play really talented actor who lives in New York most of the time now. We were lucky enough to get him in the two of them. Booth and Edwin were very opposed politically. Edwin loved the country he actually was invited many years later performed for several presidents and so he the unionists really loved Edwin booth and he loved the country and then on the opposite side of that you have his brother brother who's politically opposed and they would get into these huge arguments. One of them was so bad that they stopped talking to each other for a long time because because Edwin didn't want booth John Wilkes Booze politics around the family and the story goes that Eric you'll be able to fill in some of these details but they're doing a play and booth misses a rehearsal to go off and participate in the hanging John Brown down in Richmond and played some role in it. I think it's unclear what it was. Maybe he held back the crowd. Maybe he you know helped them. You straight heroin hopped hopped on a train with a bunch of grey shirts soldiers and asked if he could have a uniform jump in so he wanted to play a part in this and the the weird thing is as opposed as John Wilkes booth was to John Brown who was an abolitionist and booth was there to see him hang it had a tremendous effect on booth I think because he saw this skied dying for something he believes in and that's what we think is the motivator that got John Wilkes booth off of his butt and made him what to to get involved radicalizing localizing in both ways both respect for the person dying for the cause and also believing in the cause is killing him fascinating and of course booth was did not enlist to fight in the war or because his mom did not want him to mummy said he got Mommy said no so he started doing the smuggling and and participating in ways that he could and what we have in our our podcast episode is this event that happens in New York he and Edward Doing this play together and some fires or set in New York which which tied to our previous thirteen episodes this is one of those things that the confederate secret service was doing they were setting fires in New York to try to stop the knew about it was looking for them but hadn't found them or identified all and so those fires are what interrupted their performance and we think motivated John Wilkes booth to want to get involved in an actual plot to help the south side note a little fun history fact I've actually I just was reminding my myself myself that I visited the Players Club in New York and Gramercy Park which was founded in eighteen eighty spy by Edwin booth he did it to restore the booth name because of course after John Wilkes booth did what he did. When was devastated. The family was devastated. Edwin believed he would never act again in. What's interesting is is Edwin lived in the upstairs in the players club. His bedroom is still preserved. There is a bit of a museum today and hanging on the wall next to his bed is a picture of his brother John. Wow Wow wow well there. You go if you're doing the eighteen sixty five podcast trip across America add that to one of your one of your destinations. You can check that out so this episode we also meet Lucy Hale voiced by Jessica Renate Russell who is amazing and we were very lucky to get on this. She lives in. La Now but shooter so solid came in when she's the TV she's doing podcast. There's as we've said before there's dozens of dollars to be made in podcasting all of you out there looking to make your fortune but yeah that that love triangle becomes uh-huh more intertwined with the political efforts that booth is doing right and of course that's a little bit of fiction on our part. I mean there's not a historical record that shows the John Wilkes booth was motivated by jealousy but like you know if you look John Wilkes booth and try to make him a three dimensional person you have to imagine that it was in the back of his mind somewhere talked about that he in Robert Robert had a fight at a ball dance that really happened did happen and so there was some tension between the two of them but I don't think that there's anything that points to the fact that that's why he shot the president no of course not I mean of course he's tall the plenty don't I mean we know why he shot the president but it's interesting to think of this is is layer to it. You know a small layer but of course the obvious things are not as fun to explorers the less obvious insurance. That's why we lean in that direction. This is the part of the podcast art where we really went down to the three foot level as opposed to kind of the three thousand foot view that we've been for a lot of the things so I think it's fascinating and it keeps going there are more conspirators to meet and we finally you're going to get to meet in episode fifteen. Johnny Surat the man whose name has been talked about in so many episodes of the previous podcast asked finally you're going to get to hear that. Voice of the great characters so listen to episode fifteen with comes out and then tune in to listen to me Eric and Steve as we go inside the episode eighteen sixty five.
Inside the Episode | 6
"This is rob mccollum one of the producers of eighteen sixty five and welcome to eighteen sixty five inside the episode this time inside episode six joining me as ever the writers Erica Chile Stephen Walters who have constructed this now magnum opus <hes> that we are not quite halfway through with episode six so guys. Thank you for joining me again again of course thank you so the Lucy Hale story is front and center with this episode and the questions around that John Wilkes booth has has just died and we start with a flashback in this episode a little history between Robert and booth and Lucy yeah we open with a scene with <hes> with with Roberts showing up at the National Hotel where Lucy lived and John Wilkes booth also lived showing up there to have their Spanish lesson the day say that Lincoln was killed and John Wilkes booth is there and he over hears a conversation through the door of the Parlor I believe and he hears booth say to her Nymph in your sins be all my sins remembered now. We don't know Robert. Lincoln actually heard him say this Robert Ever saw booth that day. We don't know a lot of things we know. Robert was there to visit Lucy that day and booth visit her that day was booth last quote to her yeah. The last thing he said to her was the quote from hamlet which hamlet says to a few NINFA Anthony Orson to be all my sins remembered and we know that that's the actual conversation that was had that that was actually how do we know that is witnesses the buddy trial trial testimony so who's to say that that was not completely doctored or made up right right so you're owning the fact that they that may be fiction but it wasn't your fiction so okay could be it could be somebody else's <hes> then we are into the fact that Stanton now knows Lucy Hale has not. told the truth and not said everything that is out of there and so goes to confront <hes> Senator Hale and Lucy in their house and he's going to arrest her and I think that the fact that he didn't arrest Lucie is the most unusual part of the whole Lucy Robert Booth story story because it because <hes> for those of you who don't know what Edwin Stanton did under the martial law that was declared in an episode to I believe in real history he arrested basically anyone and everyone that had any connection to John Wilkes booth yeah. They're actually the Telegraph that <unk> says <hes> any accomplices aiding or abetting assisting treat them themselves as if they have murdered the president like they are they are they are complicit in that murder and subject to punishment of death except for Lucy Hale right and I think that that's a question that history doesn't tell us the the answer to. Why wasn't she arrested? I mean certainly she would have been questioned and maybe she was. We don't know <hes> but that's sort of where the are Eric Nies imaginations sort of <hes> you know took over and we sort of imagined the the worst case scenario for Lucy that maybe what she did know. Maybe maybe she didn't know the whole story but maybe she knew Moore or she knew enough to do more than she did or allowed it to happen. You know we kind of were swirling letting all those questions kind of swirl around and imagining the worst and then we go back to this idea of these missing pages and boost journal and we think okay what if that's what it was we we had to answer the question. Why was she not arrested? Yeah and also you know this is a great moment for hails character where he gets to sort of you know <hes> you know flip the script on Stanton and say okay well if you're actually going to take her and you're going to arrest or I'm gonNA tell everybody that you covered this up. I'm going to tell everybody that you obstructed justice and that sort of you know give stanton pause but it creates a problem for stanton to and that problem is is that in a in a public trial this cover up of Lucy Hale the chicanery that stanton is engaged in is going to become public knowledge or has the potential to be an so stanton yeah. There's a looming. There's a looming bomb out there with a with a potentially lit fuse. That's right well later in the episode. We you find out that the papers of Abraham Lincoln are being destroyed by members of Johnson staff and this is true. This is something that that Stanton actually did he had all of Lincoln's papers gathered and put into a vault to protect. Protect them from Andrew Johnson because he was worried that Johnson was going to destroy them all and so he locked them away in his orders were to not open it up again until Lee until Johnson was out of office in the confrontation that that results from that the question of the military favor tribunal versus civilian trial comes up with between Stanton and Johnson and and Stanton desperately wants this to be a military tribunal in in our in our story that has something to do with Lucy Hale and it has something nothing to do with sort of preserving his own power and making sure that he's not susceptible or vulnerable to being fired or the prosecution and all those things but historically though stanton. I think did believe that a military action should be tried in a military court and the most important thing about the tribunal is that he will have control over it and he will be able to make the case that the south did this the confederacy did this and that because of the referendum thing that we talked about in the in the previous yes you know <hes> inside the episode because that idea of amnesty in a question of what to do with the South is going to be litigated in this tribunal. He certainly wants to make sure that he's got a hand in it and give himself a good hand by by making king the the tribunal play in his favor and so in this episode he is asking for that military tribunal and he has not yet received stand Johnson has not answered him yet on that questions still another looming potential time bomb. If this goes to a civilian court he loses has that power right and then is so we've kind of gotten through episodes one through five where things seem to be working in in in Stanton's favor he has he has secured Johnson's at least support in part for his his. He's kept his position in play. He has kept Lucy Hale story out of the media and now suddenly all of those things start to unravel for when stanton his original plan was. I've gotTA keep Hale here. He can't go to Spain because I need him for this fight now. This has become. A huge liability the lucy stories out there and so it is a proven fact. Is it not that Hale after some delay then did go to Spain yes and Lucy went with them and although we do not know that that's connected in any way to Edwin Stanton or any sort of cover up I mean we don't actually know that but we do know that he did end up going to serve his ambassadorship and we later in the series. We'll have a a nice goodbye from hail that speaks volumes to how he felt about that but in this I've seen I think it's really interesting because it's it's it's again. We have the Hannibal story like alienating your friends. You will need people to have your back and you told me to stay here to have your back and now you're sending me away. You're running out of friends and that's that's based on a real quote <unk> from Stanton <hes> he said that his father made him swear allegiance like Hannibal <hes> against Rome that he would fight against Slavery <hes> and Stanton grew up in a house where his dad was actually housing a part of the underground railroad in their home so stanton again a diehard abolitionist and <hes> and now all of this lucy businesses is possibly derailing his agenda and it's also interesting <hes> the Eric tell the story about the woman in a black dress who goes to visit booth body on board the MONTOC prison ship okay so the this woman apparently went to the Montauk. The MONTOC is a <hes> one of the prison shit abs start off as a <hes> ironclad and then during the John Wilkes booth hunt they used it as a prison ship because they were arresting so many people that there was not room in the Capitol present there was so many people being arrested on to this and they wanted this is where we're this is kind of the C._I._A.. Secret prisons. This is the place where gags Jordan area rendition happening to the MONTOC prison ship the people that he wants to disappear for a while yeah and and this woman comes on board the ship to visit the body well no no that was some woman dressed in black who came to visit the body of John Wilkes booth we don't for him to mourn for him and we don't know who that person was but no one was allowed on that prison ship without express permission from Edwin Stanton. Who else would it have been besides Lucy? I really can't I can't there's no chance that it was one of the prostitutes. That booth was cavorting. Meeting with <hes> another thing we should say that when booth the I believe he had five photographs of women on him when they found his body so so lucy was certainly not his old lover at that time nor was L. A. Star but I think that you know it's safe to say that booth was a womanizer but but which of those women would have had the political access to even be allowed on board that ship I would love. I wish that I knew I would kill to know the answer to that question well. I think I think the story you've you've spun from it is fascinating and definitely forwards the story one other thread of the story that comes back in is we hear more about secretary seward we heard about him being attacked the very beginning of the episode. We know he's been in a coma in the very beginning of the of the season I mean but we really haven't heard much about seward since then he's now oh coming back into the story when when Stanton goes to visit his still unconscious body well and he's got seward has got a big part to play in this series moving forward <hes> he a spoiler alert sewer does survive he does wake up and he does serve the rest of his his term as <hes> as the secretary of state but from a dramatic story standpoint the last thing that Hale says to him as you better be careful stanton because you're going to end up alone just like Hannibal and he goes to see seward who's a longtime friend of his and he visits his body. He has a brief exchange with a man who worked for secretaries who are deemed William Bell <hes> outside the House and he goes to visit the body and they kind of have this moment together where he says like I had to put in the ground. Don't you leave me too to and I think that what Hale says to him in at least for the character of Stanton at we're painting really rings true for him. He's he's realizing he needs allies to win this fight because this is a fight about Lincoln's legacy. This is not a fight about him and then after he he sits down and has his kind of almost confessional with seward's unconscious body. We have a major major revelation at the very end of this episode when those papers are collected in our story major ECKERD finds something that. He was not aware of talk about this order for security to the president on the night of the Fort. It's something that was actually documented in a book by Bates who was one of the people in the Telegraph Office <hes> we'll get into a little bit of that in the next episode but what we discover is is that Edwin Stanton denied Lincoln security the night that he went to the Ford and was killed and it's interesting because while we sort of indulged what you might call historical conspiracy theories like in the example of Lucy Hale being complicit <hes> a lot of the historical conspiracy theories accused Edwin Stanton of being behind the assassination and this is one of the pieces of evidence that they use to make that case and Eric and I kind of you know we we we talked about that and we we just found it implausible yeah after doing all of the research into Stanton and Lincoln's relationship and where Stanton brought Lincoln on the cause of abolition and equal rights. It's <hes> there's just it's just preposterous to think that he would ever be behind the death of Lincoln and how that would would serve him. Well especially again as we proven the series what would happen if Lincoln was gone right and so then what that leaves leaves us with the question is why did he deny lake insecurity and we get into that question a little bit more in the next episode of it. Certainly it's a when I when I first when you Eric I told me about that. That was a thing that he did hide him security. I just it did not square for me with anything that I knew about Stanton and I found it to be a terrible struggle to just understand it and wrap my head around it and I think that the answers to those questions are really exciting and complicated nuanced yeah that the revelation relation about Lucy and Robert Lincoln John Wilkes booth was the was the first thing that triggered me and got me very interested in this story and then the second piece. Was that the thing that you guys brought to me that I'm like okay this is this is huge and clearly whatever you as the writers decided died it means for our characters. This clearly is a major event and a major in inciting moment to the journey that Stanton then goes on absolutely so to find out how all of these story threads and all of these loose ticking time bombs affect.
A Cost In Blood | 10
"Mars president lincoln or does the reading sure this letter. It was on my desk when i arrived this more see gator explain yourself. What i have to say is written down there. Sir i do not accept your resignation. Mr president you cannot go. I will not allow it. The have asked enough of mrs. stanton so my health continues to deteriorate a have scarce had a moment to mourn my children so it's time for me to go home. Mars <music> you have been my my main reliance these past battles but the real war is reconstruction construction and you you may see you must help me through the final act. The bag is filled. You must be tied tied securely so not slip yours. Do not in the country still need you answer the call will you to help me finish what we started. Aw in in eighteen sixty five eighteen sixty five is sponsored by audible listening makes us smarter more connected people. It makes us better citizens better parents and better leaders and there's no no better place to start listening than audible for instance. If you wanna learn more about edwin stanton audible. Has you covered stanton. Lincoln's war secretary by walter walter star is a fascinating and deeply researched history and biography of the man lincoln called his rock and indispensable partner of the sixteenth president. You can get all twenty hours and twenty six minutes of free. Audible members. Get a credit every month good for any audiobook in the store regardless of fries and unused credits roll over to the next next month. If you didn't like your audio book you can exchange it. No questions asked plus. Your books are yours to keep with audible. You can go back and re listen anytime. Even if you cancel your membership so start listening with a thirty day audible trial and your first audiobook plus to audible originals are free visit audible dot com slash eighteen sixty five or text eighteen sixty five to five hundred five hundred. That's an audible can to audible originals free with a thirty day trial at audible dot com slash eighteen sixty five or text eighteen sixty five to the number five hundred five hundred eighteen. Sixty five is supported by you hi. I'm lindsey graham executive producer eighteen sixty five. I'd like to ask you a favor if you're enjoying eighteen sixty five consider supporting it with a five dollar monthly pledge allege if you'll join us at eighteen sixty five podcast dot com you'll get the entire original series benjamin all right now as it appeared on stitcher premium last year completely ad free. You'll also get early access to episodes of the new rewritten and reworked series. That's the one you're listening to right now also add free and in addition to that supporters get transcripts annotated by the writers with more fascinating historical detail a free copy of the original score eighteen sixty five and special bonus segments that dive deep into our characters history and motivations in their own words as read by the cast but i hope the best perk becoming a support of the show is that you will be helping us create the next chapter after in our audio storytelling. You're so many stories to tell from seventeen sixty five to two thousand sixty five and your support is critical to our success so please go to eighteen sixty five podcast dot com and become a patron help us continue our work bringing history alive by going to eighteen sixty five podcasts ask dot com telegram july fifth the following the official sentences in the cases of the prisoners tried before the court we the members of the military commission after mature consideration of the evidence find david e herold george a at surat lewis pain powell and mary e surat not guilty of all charges. The commission does therefore sentence them to be hung by the neck until dead at such time and place is the president of the united states. Shall she'll direct. There is major. Thank you just don't get too close to mr cal. My name is major thomas eckerd more department would like to speak with you for a moment wwl right. Why don't you go fuck. There's an officer speaking to you so all right along with him. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I'll be served. That's an order. Martin is her keys. Please thank you who do on your way up three culture here jolly jolly jack's plug tobacco. That's your brain is gone through thick and mister powell gets paid pain and hear about surat idle. Nothing about johnny sarah no johnny. I'm here about his mother about career. This has been found guilty guilty what conspiracy to assassinate the president innocent. I know you know she's incident and we need you to make a statement saying as much interested in making those statements you stormed into secretary suits. It's home you struck some in the skull the butter he pistol and threw him down flight of stairs bludgeoned his guard and tossed his daughter of the ground like rag doll and stabbed secretary seward put of a dozen times but some will never be the same again. Doc dr will never forget your face for the rest of her days and these are your sensor but if you don't intercede that woman woman is going to pay the price for the you should come in six day stint brief. I don't have a moment to spare. Of course we've come here mcphail because brief eckerd here about the woman the woman mary sir i see i understand. The military tribunal has arrived at avert. It's just this morning morning. Why not to speak out of turn arrive. At the point given her death. I recommend the death yes and the tribunal felt inclined to agree with me you you would hang a woman to be clear. I made my recommendation to the tribunal based on the facts garnered from the investigation. They made their decision. I i will support it. They made their decision when they found her not guilty so users. You're doing martial no sir the idea was my but i stand with major record or the matter sir i can see you do your concerns are noted but serve duly noted. It's never been done before sir. Yes i am aware in the history of this country. No woman has ever been the history of this country. No citizen has killed the president show. Perhaps the rules have changed so this. This is a statement from lewis pain powell. He exonerates mrs surat. He says she had nothing to do with the assassination plot. I don't need to see it. He's lying. I disagree with you. You wanna trust the word of a ruthless killer of the facts of the accident and you know it. She's innocent. Innocent women do not keep company with murderer unless the daughters of senators you mean marshall mcphail yes sir you are dismissed of coarser non on you major tread carefully son. Do you know what you told me on the first day in office. You said the wards partner was an instrument of gods lights and what i said you sir. You are a good man edgard but i have seen more days than you. We defend against those who would devour us times. Darkness is the only weapon suitable don't love it. Do love that which it preserves sir who do who is she it to you that you should care so much whether she lives or dies i can ask you the scene. 'cause i don't care. This isn't about mary. Surat major <hes> this is about drawing out her son. He will come out of hiding. He will sacrifice himself to save his mother's life and if he doesn't really want to help that woman <hes> then find john surat come in secretary seward major record. What can i do for you. I understand your friendly with archbishop mccloskey of new york. He's an old friend. I need due to give him something for me. What is a message for johnny. Sarut our sources inside the catholic church believe mr rod has been given sanctuary and the war department has sources inside the catholic church. The department has sources everywhere sir major if indeed the catholic church is giving sanctuary to johnson as secretary. Are you state. I cannot interfere. I'm not asking for diplomatic intervention asking you sin word to archbishop. Clusky is a friend and worried edwin stanton stanton about to make a grave mistake. How so mary surat i believe she's innocent sir and even if she's not her crimes are not deserving of death. I hope the tribunal would give her life in prison they did sir stanton reversed their decision hot. That's supposed to be discussing this. You have my discretion major. Please go on at stanton's behest congressman bingham. Mr halt compelled the commission to change their verdict to guilty. They've sentenced answer to death by hanging johnson deserves to know. His mother is facing the nurse. If he comes forward stanton. We'll spare the woman's life. Give me the message. I'll see it finds the archbishop which means thank you mister secretary. Only you didn't hear this for me edwin william can i do for you. I've just received a dispatch from archbishop mccloskey regarding the whereabouts of johnny surat and the church claims they don't have and you believe the archbishop increased not this one at any well if he is telling the truth that means the rock still at large presumably which means we still have a chance to bring him in. What if you can't find it. You're a catholic william have a little faith. What about his mother so that's why you're here. I i know you leaned on the tribunal. Excuse me do you deny it quite an accusation who you deny. I made a recommendation nation as the head of the war department. That is my prerogative. There's nothing improper in. Was it a recommendation or an order. Have you been getting your information. It doesn't matter of kept yep. Mustard close was a major record edmund. I understand surround is important to your investigation but a woman's life is at say i'm fully aware of what's at stake william and if it doesn't come forward what then surat's fate is no longer in my stanton perhaps major eckert or whomever is feeding your of your inflammation neglected to tell you the rest of the story. I did recommend a sentence of death for mrs sarah. That's the truth. I have no reason to deny far oy because she's guilty. The plot was hatched in her nest for god's sake. I recommend the death because i believe the punishment should fit the crime now that she's here's a woman at when that said as she is a woman i also believe special consideration should be given. I've encouraged the commission to make ak- recommendation for clemency to president johnson. Mary suraj behalf chooses to spare their life. That is his decision. I didn't note with what you don't know. I can fill the length of a bible william. You told me to conduct myself with integrity. I made my recommendation. That's all i can do with the tribunal up decides to sue for clemency to the president. I cannot interfere if they choose to uphold their decision and center the gallows. I cannot interfere no matter what they decide. I cannot interfere president johnson can yes if the president disagrees with the tribunal's ruling let him raise the judge initial rid of habeas corpus purpose either way i cannot and will not interfere you wanted integrity. This is what it looks like. When will the commission make a decision on the clemency. I have until the execution tomorrow. In the meantime. I put every resource available to me on the hunt for surat. I will find him. William and i will see the rebels get the justice they they deserve and if you meant fails rob will come forward to spare his mother's life. I have no doubt it's pretty wooded reaches. The manning to surat is on the front page of every major age publication on this continent. The question isn't will word reach him in time. The question is when it reaches them. What will he do. If you want to pray for something johnny sarah's his mother believes into being in in eighteen sixty five is sponsored by madison reed in eighteen fifty six. The young british chemist william henry perkin was trying ain't to synthesize a treatment for malaria in his lab. He failed his bakersfield not with quinine but with a thick dark sludge shoulders slumped in defeat he set to start again and began cleaning the beakers with alcohol miraculously the sludge transformed turning a brilliant purple and this lab accident became the first synthetic di which perkin named maldin it revolutionized the textile industry and hair-color amazingly though it's as if nothing has changed because women today are still facing face with the same two options for colouring their hair outdated at home color or the time and expensive salon but there is a third option madison reed game changing color you can do at home and look as if you just came from the salon what makes madison reed color unique is that it's crafted in italy by master colors who blend nuances of light and dark cool. Oh and warm to create over forty five gorgeous multi tonal shades so find your perfect shade of madison dash reed dot com eighteen sixty. Five listeners get ten percent off plus. It's free shipping on their first color kit with code eighteen sixty five. That's madison dash re dot com promo code eighteen sixty five eighteen sixty five is sponsored by net sweet. Edwin stanton was ruthlessly efficient. He knew the way to get things. Done was to be forceful. Direct and single-minded did he also knew that those same qualities could be disastrous if they weren't well informed which is why after taking command of the war department he rerouted the telegraph lines is to a room directly adjacent to his office. Passion and drive won't help you. If you don't have information it was true for stanton's department and it's true for your business net that suite by oracle can help nets wheat is advanced integrated business management software that handles every aspect of your business an easy to use cloud platform giving you the visibility ability and control you need because if you don't know you can't grow with net sweet you save time money and unneeded headaches by managing sales finance and accounting orders an h._r. Instantly right from your desktop or fall find out for yourself. Why net sweet is the world's number. One cloud doesn't system right now. Net suite is offering you valuable insights with a free guide seven key strategies to grow your profits at net sweet dot com slash eighteen sixty five. That's nets we dot com slash eighteen eighteen sixty five to download your free guide seven key strategies to grow your profits net sweet dot com slash eighteen sixty five president johnson we do hereby request on this the sixth day of july eighteen sixty five leniency on behalf of the convicted conspirator mary e surat by a vote of five five of nine members of this commission. We've decided to inconsideration of her age and sex submit to you for clemency of mrs sarah and ask that her sentence be commuted needed to life in prison members of the military commission mr stanton major record but can i do for you. Clemency request west from mary surat from the tribunal lebron on my desk. I'd rather delivered to president johnson. What did i just say major. The tribunal has made good on its promise delivered guilty for across the board. Leave it on my desk. Surat snot coming what my sources claim. He's unborn. People's ship in the middle of the atlantic ocean down through the catholic church explicitly denies having possession of mr serrato detectives. Tummy surat is within our grasp that it's possible well. He's hiding here in the capital. Did detectives are wrong. I don't think so leave on my desk. This won't drink lincoln back. I beg your pardon. If atonement is what you're looking. I promise you won't find it at the end of a new major. Do not make me ask you again. You know i'll be tendering my resignation. Golic sub yours admission that secretary secretary stanton is one thing you don't get to send a telegram july six eighteen sixty five to capitol prison c._o. General hancock in preparation for tomorrow's marles execution gallows are to be constructed at the arsenal in the lot south of the prison. The scaffold should be so arranged that the four condemn may be hung at the same time you are also also ordered to supply for pine. Coffin's dig four graves within the yard decide to gallows. The execution is to take place at noon tomorrow mr president if there's something you need to see this. Mary sarah lawyer has raised a judge. He's issued a writ of habeas corpus to stop the execution given here of course if i sign this what happens next she'll be retried in a civilian court. What would you do if you were sitting in my chair. I spare her life life mr president. If you grant merceron civilian trials he will almost certainly be acquitted. An acquittal will only cast doubt on stance conspiracy case you should it yourself. I can't be seen the medal stanton's investigation be seen as meddling server be seeing this mercy and the people of the south will thank you for the tribunal. Funeral has spoken wells. The jurors want her dead. Now i play change their mind and decide to sue for clemency. That's a different story but for now. I can't get involved politics aside mr president. It's the right thing to do if mary surrender dies stanton's conspiracy spiracy case dies with a true in a manner of speaking but if i sign this writ and she gets a new trial never single witness on the prosecution's lists will be called to testify under oath every witness including and the star. I need to mull it over welsh <music>. That'll be all of course mr president choices overhaul mercy in reality and the father give him glory as we give into his arms. Everlasting peace be prepared to return into the denture reality of god the father the creator of all the father and son and the holy spirit father walter's. There's like mona loan with of course there you see this mrs surat. It's a clemency requests. The members of the tribunal commission are asking your life be spared. I want you to know i take no pleasure during the position in which you find yourself in which we find ourselves he young. Don't want this anymore more than you mrs ira but understand if your son does not come forward. I will do what i have to do. I hope he doesn't ma'am wow children's. Yes loss to what were their names caluzzi james to bring your children back anything you would not. Do you know ma'am no. I hope he doesn't come forward. I pray to god every night. He stays he's away. You're wrong for your man. In christian. Sir raised a methodist yes but are you a believer ears. Let not your heart be troubled in my father's the house there are many dwelling places. I go to prepare a place for you. John then you must also know the bible sense sense. The faithful have nothing to fear from that only from san do you pherson mister secretary and i did not do what they say i did. Sir i want you to understand i will walk to the gallons with a clear conscience. Ready rafiullah comes after when i was boy my father made me swear an oath like the father of hannibal against rolling and attornal aw hostility to slavery and like hannibal. I've given everything in pursuit of that goal. I want you to understand uh-huh three hundred thousand. That's how many northern men fell on the field that i will give their families the the justice they deserve. I will give this country the vindication it so desperately needs and i will deliver justice to the millions of freeman whose future future's hanging in the balance it does not matter if you did what they say did what is enough three hundred two thousand mrs sarah you'll be but one more mrs dan if we confess our in his is faithful and just in the forgives our sins purify us from all of us john one nine before i go. I want you to know <music>. Ah the to major general hancock commander i have just received a writ on behalf of mrs sarah to move her case to a civilian court put andrew johnson president of the united states. Do hereby suspend this writ. I direct that you proceed to execute the order heretofore given upon the judgment of this military commission signed andrew johnson president president of the united states. Mary surat do avenue final words. Save for these good and honorable people aw in eighteen sixty five is an airship production starring jeremy schwartz as edwin also featuring lindsey graham narran roberts infernal max hartmann shawn hannidy j michael tatum r bruce elliott david coffee and sally fan created by stephen walters and eric show directed by robert mcculloch written it by stephen walters executive producer unsee graham co executive producer eric are chila robert mcculloch and stephen walters music and sound design by lindsey graham to find out more about eighteen sixty five eighteen sixty five podcasts dot com or find us on facebook and twitter at eighteen mm sixty five podcast and if you're a fan of the show please consider supporting us become a patron at patriot dot com slash eighteen sixty five podcast new episodes air weekly and look for special inside the episode interviews with the writers and producers of the series to find out more about the real history behind eighteen sixty eighty five.
Inside the Episode | 2
"This is rob McCollum. One of the producers on eighteen sixty five welcome to eighteen sixty five inside the episode episode two. We in had a lot of new information. Just unloaded if you just listened to the absurd if you haven't yet, please listen to that. I there will be spoilers in this podcast in this inside the episode series. We're gonna talk about the truth. The fiction the fact the artistic license that have gone into this story and joining me again are the writers. Steve Walters and Erica Chila guys, thank you for being here. Thank you for having us, rob. This episode starts with one of my favorite scenes. It is the cast of our American cousin being sequestered in the Ford Deiter, which airman ask you. But I'm pretty sure that actually happened. Yes, he actually made them reenact, the play the entire play had them do the whole thing that is not just creative license that you guys took. No, he really did that. And he watched you watched it all the way from the beginning to the end, even the parts that happened after the shooting to speculate that he wanted to see which of the actors to the booth while. The, the lion happened to see if any of them, there is cut through is cut up to it. We also meet one of my favorite characters, Mr. Hawke. Harry hawk Harry hawk. Is this is this historical figure? Yes, it is. Yes. So m pretty much everyone that we meet in this episode is, is a real person that had real history with his mom. Yes. Right. Laura actually was the first female producer. So this was the final production of thousand performances and this was the benefit night that all the money was supposed to go to her as producer in all of the, the bits for the most part are his factually accurate. There's a moment in the scene where Harry says while I did what any man in my shoes would have done Iran? And that's actually that's a quote. That's what he said in the trial, when they asked him what happened said of jumped down, waving a knife and a big long knife, like a man who lost his senses as are all Harry's, actual words, he did a interview several years later, where he, he delved into a little bit more. Why he was afraid the booth was after him because. Of this. This prostitute named L star. We'll so that yeah, I wanna get into this. So the character of L A star is introduced and the least allegation that vice president Andrew Johnson was with a prostitute provided by John Wilkes booth in his hotel room. Talk to me about the, the history of this, how much of this is based in fact, what do we know we know a lot of circumstantial evidence that, that paints a very, very bad picture for Johnson. There was a scandalous book called civil war echoes, that talked a little bit about Johnson and booth sharing a set of sisters that were prostitutes when he was in Tennessee. And we know that L Astara was a part of the trial, which will get to later. So keep listening to the series and we know that Ella star was actually kept by booth in Washington DC as a basically. Kind of her pimp. And, and she got around to many politicians in the area. So there were a lot of there were a lot of names in her little black book. Yes. Well, and the other thing you have to remember about Washington city in eighteen sixty five is that it's a relatively small town. You know, while to I think to our modern ears we think John Wilkes booth new Andrew Johnson. Well, that sounds to us, like it's pretty shocking. But actually, at the time, it's not it's not difficult to imagine that they cross paths and that they knew each other both from their time in the south, but also from their time here, and we also have to remember about John Wilkes, booth that he was a famous actor who made his career touring around the south, particularly enrichment and became a celebrity, it's crazy. The web of who knows each other, and how and how all of these people are connected with a lot of the things we'll get to into the series. And one of the things that can I did. I mean look, this is fiction, right? Is it's history, but it's also fiction. It's historical fishing. So you know, we take some creative license and this is one of the places that we do we look. Get the circumstantial evidence and then we imagine the worst, we imagine will what if Johnson really was in that room without the star. What does that look like? And certainly we decided if that's true, Edwin Stanton would have to know about it because Edwin Stanton when he sees this letter this letter that shows this connection between Johnson and booth. He's got to ask him. He's at least got to ask the question. What is your connection to John Wilkes booth? And we're imagining the Johnson comes clean and there's a lot of times where we came up against something very strange and weird, historically in. So it was our effort to explain why the heck did that happen because it's so weird. One of the other questions that, that brings up is Edwin Stanton who clearly is not a fan of Andrew Johnson and clearly as worried than Andrew Johnson is gonna destroy Lincoln's legacy and destroy Lincoln's plan for reconstruction, which he did sit which he did in fact do. Takes takes steps, at least in this to protect him and to stand on the side of protecting office of the presidency and it sets up this kind of dichotomy that's going to be happening throughout a much of our story here. But I think it's really fascinating that, that Stanton is having to decide do I do. I stop this monster or do I help this monster? Well, so I. So the, the caveat that I wanna give before I say this is this is very much beastie Walters opinion. So I think that a lot of the historical record about Edwin Stanton is very unfavorable. But I also think you have to ask yourself the question who wrote that history and the history books were written by and large by what we would consider modern times too big. It's Ned when Stanton was well, certainly not a bigot. He was a warrior for the cause of emancipation and the cause of equal rights. And so I think that some of the negativity that is sort of thrown Stanton's way by the history books. Derives from systemic racism, that is me. Steve Walters my opinion, but I still have to believe that even though Stanton new and I have to believe that he knew Johnson was a threat. I mean it was certainly no secret. The Johnson was a big Stanton would have known that, but I also have to believe because this unprecedented event happens, where president is killed in the middle of a civil war that Stanton's first priority is going to be as the war to the head of the war department which is like being the head of the FBI. Like being the head of the CIA or like being the secretary of defense in modern times is to keep the country together. And what that means is, is that means making sure that Andrew Johnson is safe and making sure that he's fit in ready to be president. And I think it gets into the question of. Okay. We'll, there's a man that we agree with disagree with rather, politically in the White House in we are in his orbit as citizens statesman as, as human beings. What is it? What what do we do? We work with this man to we try to, to help guide this man towards his better nature or do we subvert what he's trying to do or do we resign and walkaway? And I think that's a very probable question for for modern day and going back to what you were saying about the historical fishing. This is a great example. We know that STAN offered his resignation and we know that Johnson, who was a member of the opposite party of Lincoln and would probably wanna start with a new cabinet kept him. And, and so we were dramatizing how d- how do we explain why this man would keep somebody that is intact. Against him. That was redundant of why they would he would keep him on the cabinet. And so, don't you Johnson regrets that decision? Position he ever made. So keep listening, because there is more to that relationship to be uncovered in the podcast. Also, we, we learn a little bit more about Gideon Welles secretary of the navy here. And we see the first time that, that Neptune and Mars, come butting up against each other. That's what Lincoln as we say episode two. That's what Lincoln called them Neptune and Mars, the God of war, and the God of the sea, and all throughout the civil war, Gideon Welles Stanton, butted heads. They basically hated each other or, or at the very least I think it's fair to say Gideon Welles hated win Stanton. He says his much in his journal of every page at one of the most rewarding things is reading that journal and seeing how much he absolutely hated Stanton. And the way he would spin every single event towards that hatred. And so as, as researchers we had to really look at other sides of the coin because we would get his side of the story of what happened at a cabinet meeting, and then we'd have to go and find out what Stanton's side of it was to, to make sure we weren't skewing it in a certain perspective. And like Andrew Johnson. Gideon welles. His what we would define today in modern times is being a bit racist. And it's interesting because the party affiliation is also something that's going to continue to come up throughout the story. You know, it's, it's it's in very reductive terms Democrats of the eighteen sixties are more similar ideologically to Republicans of the modern era Democrats, the modern era or more similar to the radical Republicans of the eighteen sixties. And what's interesting is that Edwin Stanton was a democrat. So he was in the same party as Andrew Johnson, but they had nothing in common in a very same way that say in the nineteen sixties. It's, you know, John F Kennedy, he's in the exact same party as the Dixiecrats, right? It's kind of a similar thing, where like in the nineteen sixties in the eighteen sixties we're seeing the fracturing of political parties. Gideon Welles was in the same party ABRAHAM LINCOLN. So you can kind of see that it's, it's not so black and white and cut and dry in terms of where statesmen and politicians, humans of, of that era fell politically, as to the question of slavery. Was not all Democrats felt one way. All Republicans felt another right? Was much more nuance than that. And I think it's important to point out that eighteen fifty six was the beginning of the Republican party was the Whigs before this. Oh, eighteen sixty when Lincoln was elected was the first presidential election, where the Republicans won and the Republicans were still trying to find an identity. We had the moderates in the radicals and they were were really fighting for the soul of what the party was going to be. We'll so the alignment of the parties has changed over time their their viewpoints changed over time. One thing that apparently has not changed over time is the use of fake news. To try to control a storyline. I was amazed. You know how much we hear about that now in, in, in, in the public discourse, but they were weaponising media in eighteen sixty five that's correct. They absolutely were. Eric, do you have anything to that yet Stanton basically, very unconstitutionally took over the press during the civil war. He shut down newspapers. If they publish things that he did not agree with. And he was very almost torrential about what they could say, in what they couldn't about the war effort and had very tight control over what they did. I think that's why he's such a conflicted historical figure because a lot of the, you know, more progressive, people now, want to, you know, have a hero who stood up for, for the rights of the Friedman for the for the rights of the freed slaves, and, but Stanton is such a conflicted character because he also trounced on a lot of a lot of liberties in, in the process of doing that. But it was wartime, and it's because because of Stanton singlehandedly in my opinion that we won the civil war. He took the reins in sixty two in and won the war for us with that determination and well, in we're, we're stepping now into the territory of the real question of the series, which is, it's an ends versus means question, Stanton took over in eighteen sixty two and you'll find out in a later episode that the way he secured the oth-. Of the word apartment was through using his famous chicanery. And so there you go. Do the ends justify the means Stanton had a massive impact on the union winning the war. But he did something a little bit shady to secure that office. So something I, I wanted to mention real quick, while we're on the subject is that we're talking about, like the shifting of parties. And I find it so interesting that neither party claims. Andrew johnson. Yeah. No one does Republicans will look at India, Johnson's Johnson say he was a democrat, and that's not our party and modern Democrats would look at him and say, we are not that party anymore. We've shifted and things are different. So it's funny that neither side will own him. He's he is probably the most unpopular president in the United States history. He certainly in the top five. There's no doubt. We'll Edwin Stanton is clearly not a fan of Andrew Johnson. He offers his resignation in the story in this episode we hear that. And again, maybe with an eye towards if I've made myself invaluable, he's going to keep me around, which works, but that all seems to be a means to an. End as you said, means an ends, he's trying to get Marshall law so that you can make sure he can capture. John Wilkes booth. That is the focus on the goal at this point. Right. That's right. And I think also, I think Stanton genuinely does believe that John, Wilkes booth in his conspirators were working at the behest of Jefferson Davis will get into that in later episodes, the, the details of that conspiracy. But what Stanton definitely gets almost right from the get-go is he secures martial law. He he, you know, the, the secretary of war does that really have the authority to declare martial law. And yet, he did and he did so with the blessing of the president presumably, and he launches into what is the largest manhunts in United States history, but it's not just the manhunt for booth that he's, he's going to have to wrestle. He's also in the next episode. He's going to have to deal with the question of reconstruction, one other tool that he uses in this attempt to, to get Marshall law to get to get that thority is in some ways, weaponize, is this, this story about L star secures her agreement. Makes her you know toed the line and say what he wants to say. But also at the same time, definitely has her still in his back pocket. Well, I think that, you know, mainstream historians would say, well, there's no way that this happened. Right. Right. Eric. I mean, they would probably say, there's no way that Stanton leveraged star to secure his place at the table and that may be true. But there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that points in that direction. And so again, Eric. And I in the name of telling a good story, we said, let's let what, what if what if that was true? I mean it's strange at a time where Edwin Stanton is rounding up every single person that has a connection with jumbled booth in arresting them. Why was she not arrested and something that I found in my research, channel think anybody's ever seen before is that in a commissary, general document would showing all the people paid by the government? There's a l Turner there, which is her Christian name being paid nine hundred dollars which in that time was about thirteen thousand five hundred dollars. Always follow the money, follow the money and see where it goes. All right. So. Martial law has been declared the hunt for booth is on the struggle for how reconstruction will continue has been has been outlined and all of those are yet to be discovered. Guys, thank you so much for being here. Tune into episode three and then join us afterwards on another inside the episode.
Inside the Episode | 1
"This episode of eighteen sixty five is part of the series that debuted on Stitcher premium in late two thousand eighteen since then we've rewritten and re recorded many portions of the show, including a brand new finale. These new episodes are debut in weekly with the first two available June eighteenth, two thousand nineteen as a patron of eighteen sixty five you can binge the entire series, including this episode as it originally debuted now and can enjoy the new episodes ad free before they're released to the general public. Thank you for your support. Hello. And welcome to inside the episode eighteen sixty five I'm rob McCollum warning the producers on this project so excited to finally have this year and a half long process of getting this podcast up and to you finished an over the line. And now our first episode has been released listened to it joined it, I would say listen to it. I there are spoilers coming, but the whole purpose of this inside the episode is to look into this very complex story. Find out how it was brought to the microphones in the way that it was where the actual history lies where the artistic license was taken. So there is no one better to talk about that than the two writers who join me today. Eric are chiller and Steve Walters. You guys have been working on this for a very, very long time much before even the podcast began. So I will start with you. Tell us where you guys, I began working on this idea. Thanks, rob. This actually started in two thousand three at Baylor University. Stephen, I were in the theater department together in a theater history class and there was an assignment to. To write a paper on a period of the history, and we resigned, the eighteenth or nineteenth century, and not a whole lot happened there, it was all a minstrel shows and vaudeville and melodrama. And so we looked on the list weren't really crazy about any of those things. But Steve saw John Wilkes booth, the booth family on there, because they were very prominent theatrical family, and we decided to write a play together instead of do the paper and all kind of started there. Yeah, we had this is Steve. Walters talking we had. That's exactly right. We, we went to our professor, and we basically said, we hate research favors. Can we write a play and he very Scotla? Hey was his name. And he said, yes. And we did we wrote a terrible play about John Wilkes booth. It was basically a glorified. You know, fact sheet of, of what happened in history. What from that? Terrible play eventually a real play was born many, many years later. Well, I saw that play. It was it was a fantastic production. And so I, I have loved this story for a really long time, but that was very. Very booth focused. Yes it was about John Wilkes booth. And this, this short time period, kind of from the assassination to booths death. How did it then morph in the in the ensuing, five years, it has changed? In other plays have come out of that. How did the idea of focusing on Edwin Stanton happened? Well, the interesting thing is Steve was really big about having a driving question to the show. And the thing we kind of gravitated more towards at the time was the reaction to nine eleven how do we deal with a monster when something happens? And so that was it was very booth focused and in how do we as a nation fight in enemy like that. That is attacked us and, and it's weird how it's completely morphed away from that. Well, and that's because of it, that's because of Edwin Stanton. I mean, I think I in looking at the history of the way I describe it is, it's almost like he demanded that the story be about him and that his his name kept crept. Creeping up and all of the. Search that we did. And in this question of, you know, in the pursuit of a monster do we make one of ourselves, Edwin Stanton is really the character that matters in that story, you know, booth is awesome of bin Laden. Right. He's this looming figure that, you know, commits an atrocious active evil that precipitates this constitutional crisis, Edwin Stanton like Dick Cheney in the wake of nine eleven light George Bush in the wake of nine eleven he's the man who steps onto the scene to try and put the country back together, preserve the nation and protect us. Keep us safe and the process of doing that some really difficult moral questions are released, brought to the surface, so much research went into this. I mean now going on fifteen years of diving into this. And I know Eric you served as the researcher in chief on a lot of this. But when it came time to expand this to our play into a now fifteen episode podcast. How did that work in terms of incorporating that research you've done, and finding more to flesh that out? Well, we tried to as much as we could go back to the original. Sources. And we started off the process, reading a lot of the contemporary books and seeing where they agreed where they disagreed. But to me, some of the most useful sources were the navy secretary Gideon Welles wrote an entire journal through his entire time his cabinet. And so we knew day to day, exactly the conversations that happened the people that were present, and, and that was really helpful to just kind of see what happened in Lincoln's cabinet, but it's, but it's very skewed from his perspective, which I've found very interesting. Yeah. And I would say in the research thing, struck me the most is that in the eighteen sixties there's a lot of I write the first United States, president assassinated in the wake of the country's first and hopefully only civil war. The first woman executed by the federal government in the United States history, the first thing, peach minutes of a sitting president. So there's a lot of first, but then when you go the next step the next level of. That it's a president who's a populist. It's a president who is accused of being a womanizer, and who is impeached under suspicion of colluding with the confederacy to secure the office of the presidency. And then you start thinking, okay? Well, now this sounds like we're talking about something else. So that was the next thing that struck me was the modern parallels are striking in. It's sort of, I would say it's like battle star galactica all of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again. And since we've started this process, more and more current events lineup exactly with what's happening in the story. And it's just insane. The that history repeats itself that way. So you guys came to me, Steve, you first approach me about maybe adapting listen to a podcast, you had her terms, which is a project that I did last year with Lindsey Graham, our executive producer. And again, that was that was audio drama in its in its purest form kind of going back to that, that nineteen twenties radio. But how do you think that works in terms of putting, what is a stage production or a really? A film and putting it into audio first of all I love terms in terms really opened up the door of possibility for me in terms of what this project could be a radio drama, the work that you and Lindsey and Mike Frederico did was absolutely incredible. I think that the biggest challenge of taking a play or film, and making it a podcast radio. Play is just the practical challenges. I realized about myself as a writer. How much I rely on visual storytelling? And it was so difficult when I was, you know, I would I would get to a moment. I mean, practical things like, if okay, rob, you play congressman John Bingham in the story, I play, Robert Lincoln, if John Bingham and Robert Lincoln walk into a room and start talking, what do we have to say? We have to say congressman Bingham. Yes. Mr. Lincoln, you, which is, you know, obviously, it doesn't feel great writing sometimes. But it's, it's a necessary evil, you have to let the audience know who's in the room, and we're in the room is, and where the room is just practical challenges, like that, that you don't think about me, having never written a radio play before this. Was it was a struggle at times to sort of to get the hang of it, and then but one of the, the benefits of writing for radio and writing for podcast medium is that I think the I'm a podcast head, I love them. And I think what people like about podcasts is that you get to get into the granularity of, of the history and of the subject matter. Whereas in a film or a play you're constrained by time and it's visual storytelling. Medium, so sometimes the granular history, the granular details, the juicy facts, you don't get to relish, those as much and live in them as much. Well, it's a perfect segue, because I want to get into the juicy facts of episode one folks may have just listened to it. But there's a lot of information there that that and I thought I knew about the assassination of Blinken. I thought I understood from my junior high history days, what had happened. I know I wrote papers on it, but there was so much that I had no clue on the multiple attempts. You know, the fact that secretary of state Seward was attacked at the same time and almost. Killed and, and that there was also some some thought that there was a potential attack on Johnson planned as well. So for people that don't like me about the history. What of that is true? And what of that is creative license? What happened on that night? While Eric was the first person to bring these details to me and what I realized is, there's just a lot of assumptions that we have historical assumptions about what happened. I think the majority of people would say that John, Wilkes booth was quote, unquote, lone gunman turns out, that's not true. He had a gang of conspirators that worked with him. I think a lot of people assume that Lincoln was the only target. Well, that's not true. Secretary of State William Seward was a target. Also Andrew Johnson was target and we'll get, you know, get more into what happened in. Why Johnson wasn't actually attacked? But also, there's another assumption that I think most of us make, which was that APPA Matic's win generally surrendered was the end of the war. Well, that's true. But that's also not true because there were multiple confederate general. Rules still out in the field with thousands of troops under their command who were still fighting. And there was this belief, certainly from the standpoint of Edwin stance and the secretary of war that it was possible that the rebels were behind this. It was possible that Jefferson Davis, the president of the confederacy himself ordered, these attacks and that may be, general Johnston, and those rebel troops that were still out in the field. They might be marching on Washington. Then there's one of my favorite things about episode. One is the energy, it's all taking place in that night in the in the one night, where they still don't know what's happening, right? We may be under attack. There may be troops marching towards the city in this exact moment. And Edwin Stanton is kind of in the middle of this maelstrom just trying to figure out like what is true? What has happened is everyone that needs to be kept safe being kept safe at this moment, which is unfortunately, something that we have experienced lately, in the news, whether it was the shooter in Dallas or the attack in Paris. We, we keep having these events happen. These mass shootings where we don't immediately know how many people invite. Vulva and you'll see a lot of conflicting news stories and, and we're getting news spur of the moment back, then they were getting things word of mouth. So you can imagine how misconstrued, things got very quickly and Stanton. You know, he, he was certainly in a similar position to Mr. Chaney in the moments after Lincoln was killed. You know, George Bush was in Florida. He was in a classroom. He wasn't really in a position to take the reins. And so Dick Cheney sort of picked up where Bush left off, and he had to make some very difficult decisions. You know, famously Dick Cheney had to make the decision that if a plane was flying towards Washington that they were authorized to shoot it down. Even if there were civilians American citizens on that plane. Similarly, Edwin Stanton had to make really tough calls at one of those decisions that he made was to was supposed to declare martial law, and he basically ran our country for twelve days. Yes, you did. One of the other characters that I did not know a lot about, and that this process has taught me about is Andrew Johnson. We discover in this episode that there is a note from. John Wilkes booth waiting at Johnson's hotels. So is this true? Tell me the story where did you discover this information? So there's a lot of mystery surrounding this note booth in Johnston, as we will reveal later in the series do have a connection, and it's an interesting connection. But what's to me, the most mysterious part of this node? Is that it means one of two things as Stanton says at the very end of the series? It either means that booth wanted to make sure Johnson was home, so they could kill him or it means that booth and Johnson were having conversations and it may be he had something to do with this. And that question of Johnson's complicity is something that plays throughout the course of the series. So you mentioned that his potentially an attack on Andrew Johnson. That, that's one of the explanations of the note that is important to the story because, and as it is said, if the president vice president and secretary of state have been killed. We don't as a country have a plan at this point in our history. No it to do. Right. Exactly at the time, the, the amendment that really lays out exactly what happens in succession, didn't exist. All we had was that the president, then the vice president serve, and then in their absence. The secretary of state is the one to trigger a new election, had they succeeded had John Wilkes booth, and his conspirators succeeded in killing all three of those men, we would have been in a difficult spot. I mean what would have happened? We don't actually know probably what would have happened is that congress would have convened and passed an amendment to answer the question of what happens when these people are gone, but that would have taken time and certainly from Stanton's perspective. If the if the rebels are moving on the capital, if in fact, general Johnston, and the rest of these confederates are still gonna fight and not give up. And we also have to remember Jefferson Davis has not surrendered. The confederate government has not surrendered. So they're still out there, right? And who where do where does the loyalty of all these soldiers lie? Does it lie with Robert E Lee, or does it lie with the president president Davis? So all. These questions are swirling around and Stanton's mind that night. And certainly, I think they motivated some of the decisions that he made. So at this point in the story, we don't know if there's a rebel attack, we don't know if it is a conspiracy, or alone gunman, and we don't really know who is in charge of the government, and how the rest of the story of reconstruction will be written from this point forward, but you do have Google. But don't she just wait until episode two comes out all of these questions and more will be answered? Thank you so much for listening to this inside the episode. Join us next time after you snap. So.
Inside the Episode | 12
"Hello and welcome to episode well. Well the inside the episode eighteen sixty five. I'm rob mccollum one of their co producers on this and joining me as always are stephen walters and eric chila. Howdy rob the writers of the project so it's it's gotten fast and furious two now and for those of you again. That haven't don't listen to everything. I'll say again. We're going to talk about what happens. In this episode. There are spoilers so make sure you have listened to episode twelve before you listen to this so so so much in this episode in the last episode <hes> at the very end there's a scene between stanton and bingham where they talk about two things stanton says look. There's two two things are going to happen. The congress is going to pass reconstruction laws right did our check a bulwark to johnson's policies lenient policies and then the second thing is is we're going to pass a law that says that you can't be fired because you've been approved or appointed rather the senate and that's a real thing those things did happen and they those two bills were passed passed on the exact same day. <hes> what we don't know is. We don't know that stanton was the architect behind them though it's not hard to imagine that he had his finger in that pie <hes> <hes> but what we do know is that stanton was the reason why it was passed and the reasons for that eric. Do you wanna talk about that. I mean he was the head of the war department so he controlled the minnesota. The congress is congress's passing. All of these reconstruction acts the power to enact what they're wanting to do was given expressly to the war department into the military and with stanton and power that meant that stanton was the one enacting their policy and and if johnson like policy and didn't wanna do it. He had no way to stop them other than firing edwin stanton and putting somebody else in his place so that's why i think congress very very smartly on the same day. They passed the law splitting the south into the military districts. They also gave edwin stanton the ability ability to not be fired by andrew johnson in the diaries of gideon welles and another historical documents. You can read about people's feelings about this and it's a complicated issue. Issue even stanton claimed that it was unconstitutional and waved his fists in the air and was like how dare they you serve to shin and acted like he was upset set that they had taken that power from then he actually is the one who wrote the the opinion a veto opinion for president johnson but i have to think that in the you know that stanton stanton was yeah the this is one of those the catfish catching story with you. Stick your hand in that moved between different characters over the series from different times and at times that was like stanton's logic on getting johnson at times johnson used that same story ended up in the end but it's been funny over the course of the play and all the different versions of the script over the of the two years we working on at that fishing metaphor moved between different different characters because it was applicable in several different ways. It's funny. Though i mean you know in our research we really you can't nail down exactly what caused johnson to fire stanton. It's very difficult to do. We tried an advocate of issues that johnson took exception pick a day and in the wells journal <hes> i i just literally went back and looked at what are the things that happened in the month leading up to what do they talk about. What are the conversations. They're having at one of the interesting things that happens in this episode. Is this issue of texas. This issue of governor throckmorton state of texas has an election. They elect throckmorton as governor by a like a four to one margin over appease appease who is the republican candidate and then stanton because of all of what we talked about in the previous episode because of the south's lack of prosecuting prosecuting southern crimes against the friedman and the freemen's bureau <unk> <hes> officers they remove him from office and ali only to stanton remove the governor from office but then replaces him with the republican that just lost by a four to one margin so this this would be like the the secretary of defense coming to texas right now and removing ted cruz from the senate and replacing him with beto aerobic and just see how twelve at goes down worse replacing delivered here all right last. Que yeah not even a close election. This isn't even like abbott lupe valdez. This is it was the liberty i don't even i don't know nobody does get letters about that. Uh-huh okay if you were the libertarian candidate from texas and you're listening to this podcast we support you. We are actually both libertarian. We do both lease. Keep listening and give us a like in the comments but don't let your five star rating. Hey do like us on on. They can't put this. It's gonna be really good but they they replaced him with the republican candidate who lost from a four to on margin and that just can't be constitutional yeah and again this is the fact that actually happens just seems insane but also like it's clearly daring bring him to fire him and not only that though i believe that congress actually did authorize a law giving him the power to do that. Yes one of the reconstruction acts that they passed was giving giving stanton the ability to remove any elected official who which is just wow. That's it's insane that they attempted that what we hung yet and yet though it's not insane that they did that. I mean if you think about it. These are the very people that just went to war with the united states of america. They succeeded needed. They broke off and they fought bled and died there right to earn human criminals yeah essentially and so the secretary of war should be able to prosecute war criminals right what there's probably a little more process to vaccines and accept that they've been parked there actually four ways of amnesty given by johnson each progressively more lenient till the last one was full complete. Pardon whether you'd better know what happened during the civil and that's when when we saw jefferson davis pardoned he pardoned all of the people that were sent to dry tortuga <hes> all the conspirators samuel mudd ended up getting a pardon and i don't think john surat was actually pardoned. We may have said that didn't go to the island well. I think his his case was thrown a court in the broadest possible terms. What modern historians say is that. Andrew johnson fired edwin stanton because of mary's rod. That's what modern historians say the further author back though you get into the history the less common it is for people to explicitly say that i think in the eric you may have some opinions about this but my sort the final analysis if like why did he fire him. I think mary surat's death whatever it was whether it was that stanton actually did withhold the clemency request johnson found out and was furious or whether it's because the public backlash against johnson in the wake of her death whatever it was it caused johnson to no longer trust edwin stanton and he was looking for a reason and in the wake of the tenure of office act. I think the decision was made. This is unconstitutional. I want to fire this guy. Let's challenge subarus with one stone and fire and let's let it go to the supreme court if it has to but let's let's make this happen and the first thing they did. Which is the section we just for for brevity say can because it didn't tie to necessarily johnson <hes> stanton's arc that we had to play out was <hes> he replaced him with general grant <hes> who who apparently was very sympathetic to stanton's policies and grants when it became time to quietly stepped back and allowed stanton. Yeah i believe stanton was going to a funeral. If i remember correctly he leaves town to go to a funeral while he's out of town johnson i think replaces him with general grant and when standing gets back grant gracefully steps aside so against wells advice and much to the plan that stanton has set in place johnson finally only decides to fire and when stanton huge mistake huge mistake which is a huge mistake and we've finally find out in this scene how he plans institute that and who he has chosen to take his place. Tell me about lorenzo thomas. That's right so <hes> lorenzo. Thomas is a general in the army who has a very we like most people has very difficult and complicated relationship with edwin stanton. There was no love lost between these two men <hes> during the i believe we make reference to this in the in the show but <hes> during the civil war stanton sent thomas out to the mississippi valley to recruit negro soldiers to the fight and sort of an are telling ailing of it <hes> it. Which is you know more or less true <hes> be. Thomas felt that that was disrespectful. He felt that he was being short. You know that was she needs his station. Yes that's right and so he hated when santon and never forgave him for that because he felt that he should have been on the front lines leading the charge <hes> and so in our telling of it. That's why johnson picks thomas because of personal animus that he feels for edwin stanton and because i think the <hes> political alliances well he. He knows that he has a loyal officer. Who's going to follow his policies right so it's the president saying that the most important thing in an officer is not to sense of duty eighty or the law but loyalty loyalty. It's not interest doesn't sound familiar doesn't sound healthy to function. It'd be counter to the role of government but so he so he establishes thomas's thomases loyalty now. There's there's a lot of reference to him. You know never saying no to a drink. Do we know that that lorenzo thomas was in fact a man who hit the bottle or was that was that a yes we do. We do know that he was a bit of a drunk or at least we know that in this is a little bit of a spoiler for the next episode. Will we know that andrew johnson at least east called him a drunk publicly to the press to make excuses for how some of the stuff turns out but <hes> yeah he definitely a man who had who had kind of fallen from grace in and you know had become a bit of a raging alcoholic in his later days and in our telling of it he blamed stanton for that but there's a lot of true historical facts in this episode one of those true historical facts wchs is that <hes> stanton in the scene where thomas comes in to take possession of the office stanton really did say could i have a copy of that letter and then ask him where he was going to be and then send his men to arrest him of course at which point he he barricaded himself inside danton is barricaded in his office this actually we happened that he refused to leave. The word apartment barricaded himself in. Yes that really happen. Yes that really happened okay. I that was one of those that i thought like oh. This is just storytelling retali- hard it up a little bit. It's also true that <hes> lorenzo. Thomas was bailed out for five thousand dollars. The there are allegations that andrew johnson was pulling strings to raise that that money and that there were some wealthy southern merchants that <hes> that paid the way for that s- <hes> and then the final scene where thomas comes in and he saying i'm the secretary of war at ad interim and stanton saying i on the level secretary of war that's based on an actual <hes> surviving historical document that were contemporaneous notes were taken by a congressman who was actually in the room at the time that he came in and you can read the exact text of what was said so you pulled a lot from the actual of that moment. The actual text is thomas as i am secretary of war we're at interim and ordered by the president to take charge of this office in stanford says i order you to repair to your room and exercise your office as jude in general and he says i am secretary war at interim interim and i shall not obey your orders and they just go on and on and on repeating it back and then stanton says i order you to repair to your office. He says i shall not do so in stanton says then you may stand mayor if you please but if you will attend to act as secretary of war at your peril something i it's remarkable that we have that conversation that we will use it. <hes> something that i wanted to go back to that. You were just talking about was johnson raising the money. <hes> we see definitely a transition of johnson from being someone who is shell shocked that he's president to now really taking the reins and enjoying politics and enjoying being in this position yet wells. Wells is a little bit surprised. Is that like oh. This guy is kind of its dirty dealing and it's shady but he's figuring out how to be successfully shady. How does exist in washington hats johnson. You know on the assent or decent fiat how you look at it. We see johnson courting all of these people who had just committed treason against the country in a war and and now now he's embracing these these southern congressmen that many of them were generals of the south and in building these political relationships <hes> and it's it spreads speech so obviously stanton is very very against what he's doing <hes> so when we get to reasons why he would want johnson out of office stanton legitimately believe that johnson is is committing treason by reimb- racing these people and bringing them back into government by doing all of those things at the expense of the friedman's bureau and the friedman exac. That's why in the in the scene of course one of my favorites because bingham is in it but you know bingham saying we only have real evidence and proof of the tenure of office act and that's what the people are willing to move forward on and standards like no. This guy is treasonous. He's a snake. He's raising funds. He is toward you know he he needs to be removed from off which which by the way it's also true that edwin stanton calmed lorenzo down by giving him a drink just a few days though after that infamous conversation and stanton's his office between renzo the house of leadership comes together <hes> in the senate leadership comes together and they all sort of like reaffirm the tenure of office act has has been violated and the johnson didn't have the right to do what he did but then a debate ensued between the more radical members of the republican party and the more moderate members of the republican party pretty about what it's like. They all agreed. Hey we're gonna impeach him. But what are we going to impeach him. For which articles are we going to pass right and like you just said you know treason was a subject that was brought what up right and so the you know the way that we have stanton at say it is the punishment should fit the crime but ultimately bingham who did in fact prosecute <hes> impeachment take the house <hes> prosecute the impeachment hearings. <hes> you know he very much fell on this on the moderates side of this which was hey. He's violated the law. There's no question about that. Let's not muddy. The water is let's not do anything. It's politically divisive that might cause our unity to break. Let's just let's let's hang all this on this procedural crime this this termination of edwin stamp well and the question that stanton raises which is we can't just go in with the procedural crime that has to be more more to really lead to high crimes and misdemeanors does echo some of the conversations nations that have been happening in the united states right now with the mother report coming out and people are saying. There's no proof of this. There's just a hint of another people saying hey that's enough at least these procedural things and that might be you know just the firing of comey and that's ours was amazing again historical reverberations of what happened in eighteen sixty. This is what eighteen sixty e eight hundred eight hundred sixty are still echoing today and the things that we see happening and there were some there were some congressmen on the fringes who were asserting being that in this takes us all the way back to episode one <hes> asserting that the booth note <hes> showed that johnson inspired and they were again accusing accusing him of treason but again when you look at the wide picture of things when we talk about conspiring who is at the confederates would have benefited from being an office us and what has he done ever since that moment where he stepped in who has he benefited right and it's been right veterans <hes> that's also incredibly topical right <hes> and then this sort of question about you know. What are we going to impeach him for. Is it just going to be the tenure off actor. We're gonna bring in conspiracy or treason or other high crimes sort of leads us in our <hes> telling another to the issue of sanford conover who in very to me. It's completely bazaar but he of course resurfaces send for kind of a reached out in an effort to try to make himself available to save himself from from the prisoner and we hear about this and wells journal. <hes> me talks about having this conversation with johnson johnson comes to him and says hey guess what just just happened. Conifers wife just walked in and was asking me to pardon her husband because she said that he had a deal with the republicans that a congressman ashley ashley <hes> who is actually very closely tied with stanton a kind of his his in in a lot of the dealings he was doing head worked to deal with convert that if conifer would say that johnson had conspired to assassinate abraham lincoln that they would clear him of charges what i heard that sanford conover reappeared in the story. I was pretty shocked because even if you accept stanton's premise which i believe is stanton's genuine premise. I don't think it was chicanery. I think it was conviction. I think he believed that conover was telling the truth but even if you accept stanton's view of sanford con over <hes> james watson wallace or charles dunham whatever his name was if you accept the view that he he was telling the truth from an optic standpoint he had been called a liar by the new york times. I mean it would essentially be all of the media. Sources in the country are saying this guy's a liar. His testimony is stricken from the record. During the tribunal and yet here we are years later he makes it to retry after a perjury trial and he makes an appearance again and i think that that is shocking to me and that was literally the event that led up to the firing of stanton in the diary of wells that is the actual straw it seems to be historically one of many straws that broke the camel's back for it possibly could be so they so the conifers and i'm assuming his wife and and he were in contact but maybe not but played try to play both sides sounds like my husband will give you this this stuff you should pardon him and then when it goes the other side and says hey my husband's gonna help them unless you pardon them so. Try and did it work. Did he get apart from anybody know he went to jail and in our telling of it. It's sort of like you know we leave the <hes> the listener with this question right episode twelve of like okay. We'll bingham said you needed more proof well now. He's got his proof. What's what's going to happen next right. Like what are they going to do with this information are are they going to run the risk of splitting the party and breaking the unity or are they gonna you know put their best foot forward and try to hit him with the biggest amount mound of dirt that they can yeah and if you if you embrace what sounds to some light conspiracy theory does it hurt the entire argument yeah do you do you swing for the fences and try to the biggest. Take down you can do knowing some of that is on questionable evidence that is gonna get pushed back on in. This conversation is happening in new cycle every day. Hey i mean it's the question of it's like look these procedural crimes lying to the f._b._i. Potential obstruction of justice all these different things you know do do they do they alone rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors demeanor because they're not bribery and so on and so forth but on the other hand. It's like there's also this weird argument that i think is a little dishonest being made that it's like well. I mean if there's no conspiracy then there's no obstruction because if there's no crime to obstruct an instruction is an instruction but i think being argument is it's enough. Obstruction is enough that you if you obstruct justice it doesn't have to be in pursuit of a cover up. It's it's just the act of obstructing the investigation but that's a procedural crime procedural violation like lying to the f._b._i. So on and so forth so it's like that this part of the story very much to me feels like an echo and we're gonna find out how that all plays out in episode thirteen thirteen which means you guys need to come back and talk to me after we listen to that and you at home need to listen to episode thirteen. Thank you so much for joining us for this inside the episode so and we will talk to you after the mexican and if you'd like to support this kind of storytelling and ensure that we can continue to tell more stories like these supportive fordis- at patriotair dot com slash eighteen sixty five members there get advanced access to episodes bonus features and free copy of the soundtrack patriot dot com slash eighteen sixty five. I'm rob mccollum. Thanks for listening to eighteen sixty five inside the episode.
Inside the Episode: S2E04
"Consider this ad as your mental health. Checkpoint how are you feeling today a little anxious having been sleeping well lacking focus. It's okay to need help. Sometimes and calm can provide support com. Is the number one mental wellness app. Clear your head with guided daily meditations improve your focus with calms curated music tracks and drift off to dreamland with their imaginative sleep stories. Just last night. I was soothed to sleep by the incredible laura dern as she took me on a relaxing journey from country to coastline for our listeners com is offering a special limited time promotion of forty percent off aecom premium subscription adt com dot com slash. Wandry go to see a l. m. dot com slash wandering for forty percent off unlimited access to com's entire library. Welcome back everyone. I am rob mccollum. One of the producers and director of eighteen sixty five. Joining me as always are stephen. Walters and arica chile for this inside the episode of episode four of season. Two guys welcome arab. Then he rubbed so as eric said in a previous inside the episode. We untied the knot. Now we have gone through the prologue episodes to fill in some of the gaps. Now we are. Here is the beginning of our full on season. Two stevie you happy to be here. Yeah very happy very excited. So what do we learn in this episode. We meet several new characters. We learn some new intrigue some new developments along the way i of course we realized that grant has won the presidency. Yeah we jumped some time there. Yeah we did. I mean what's great. I think for our listeners is that they just heard the american elections wicked game episode on the election of eighteen. Sixty eight which provided some context. I hope for them But what we decided. Is that the story of of grants journey really begins after he's elected You know we have all of these crazy events. That happened politically. Were andrew. johnson's party. Of course we get into this a little bit in this episode. But his party turns against him. They don't nominate him in at the convention. He's disgraced from the impeachment and on the republican side grant is sort of swept into the presidency Boy it's really on the ballot in eighteen. Sixty eight is this question of what's going to happen to the friedman. The democrat side. Their opinion is pretty clear. They say this is a white man's government white men rule and on the republican side. You have grant saying let us have peace. And so these two very very contrasting messages collide in an election where grant sweeps and he wins. He wins big and we begin this story with this event that a lot of people don't know about which is that. A general grants train. Was i suppose you could say attacked in the aftermath of the election. I know we talked a lot about. Maybe trying to dramatize that that could be fun from an audio standpoint to have a train derailment with all the sound and everything but really grant was so committed to it being a non issue that you kinda let that guide the story right. We'll grant wanted it to be such an issue that no one ever heard about it They kind of covered it up and didn't talk about the fact that this happened. Yeah that's right. Grant did not want people to know about what happened. And there's not a lot of information out there about what happened as a result of it grant wanted to stay silent. His aide adam doe who wrote a grants personal memoirs And also wrote a book called grant in peace from apple mattox to mount mcgregor. A he writes about it. He said grant himself enjoined. Silence in regard to the circumstance and his companions were very willing to comply. And this is a piece that we use in our dramatization of it for crime is contagious into announce one attempt like this is to suggest another In in that that book Granted piece You can read. Adam does account of what happened that night. When the train derailed. I've always said and i said this. Eight hundred sixty eight election. That i wrote. It's not hard to imagine that whoever was responsible for leaving this switch open and below is clear in his writings of it that he believed it was intentional. It's not hard to imagine. Whoever that person was had either sympathy for or a direct connection to the knights of the ku klux klan or at the very least it's not hard to imagine that edwin stanton would have thought as much although we don't really know yet which is a relatively new thing. The election of sixty eight is the first time that we see the clan and really as an organization that they are active and politically active right. I mean They you know. They began as a a social club for former former confederate officers and they sort of evolve into this paramilitary organization with political aims. They expand they get more and more organized. More prolific and the violence against the friedman at the polls in eighteen sixty eight was was Pretty severe but in spite of that many of friedman step forward and cast a ballot for the first time in american history and shifted the The state houses and the senate and the congress very very strongly for republicans in this election. Yeah but i think it's fascinating to think that you know. Just not so. Many years after john wilkes booth abraham lincoln that general. Grant's train turned upside down on. Its belly and that he was nearly killed on his way to the white house And as it relates to our story in our sort of imagination of these events. I think it puts edwin stanton in this unique position. Yeah we immediately have him questioning. you know. He knows it's an attack and it's it's kind of a a echo of of last season in his reactions to that yet it's fine. It's funny to mir because we don't know a whole lot about what stanton was doing during this time post impeachment. I mean we know. He campaigned very actively for grant particularly in ohio. He made some pretty significant speeches on his behalf and You know We have him. Say i that he delivered ohio. That may be an overstatement but not not hard to imagine. That stanton might have believed that that was true. We know that He was with grant when grant found out that he had been nominated for the republican nomination. But we don't know too much about it. But i really enjoyed this idea of what was what is edwin stanton like when he doesn't have any actual power. I really enjoyed the scene where he's hanging out in the war apartment and giving everyone advice on what they should be doing when he doesn't work there anymore. Yeah and i think it's babcock says you don't work here anymore. I just enjoyed this this sort of fantasy but again there's not much of a historical record to tell us what stanton was up to during this particular this particular time or get a check in with With stanton we hear grant as he's taking his office and we also then have a check in with the defeated andrew. Johnson who is of course not in the happiest of states as he does this interview with our intrepid reporter. Yes johnson the lame duck was perhaps the lamest of ducks But he did. He did do some things. i think. Those things have some some parallels to to Our most recent president for one thing. He as i've said before wielded his pardon power like a shotgun he pardoned all of the remaining booth conspirators. Who were alive. I'm eric you probably know a little bit about the story of dr mud. Which i'll i'll hand off to you in a second but the other thing that he did which i think is worth mentioning is that. He did not attend. The inauguration of ulysses grant in an outgoing president not attending the inauguration of their successor had only happened two times before that in history. I one being. John adams with thomas jefferson the second time being. John quincy adams with andrew jackson and so enter. Johnson is a totally betraying precedent. Here by not attending and when we talk about modern parallels donald trump is the first president since enter johnson to not attend the inauguration. Yeah and i mean it's just interesting to me. you know. those parallels are pretty hard to ignore. Yeah so johnson was doing all these pardons and one of those pardons again was samuel. Mudd also some other booth booth conspirators Samuel and michael laughlin and ned spangler and that pardon was brought on because there was a breakout of yellow fever all four of them were sit down to dry tortuga and there was a breakout of yellow fever and dr mud stepped up and helped the prison kind of weather that that disease breaking out and one himself a pardon from it and michael laughlin of in our store we can posited sam arnold and michael lachlan to be Sama laughlin played by. Eric are played by me with my. My lousy irish accent allows it was easy but actual historical figure michael laughlin died of that yellow fever and then doctor samuel mudd ended up moving up back to maryland and actually ned spangler ended up working as a a hand on his homestead which is very strange. That is strange and We also know that johnson. Pardon jefferson davis the president of the confederacy. And you know. I think all of these pardons lend to this sort of idea that johnson was you know colluding in some way with with the south. I mean maybe not through official channels of the old confederate government. Of course that had long since been dismantled But he was. Perhaps you know the accusations are that. He traded bribes for pardons you know that he was trying to line his pockets in. There was a a large impression. Johnson certainly thought this was unfair but there was a large impression that he was corrupt And that his was had been one of the most corrupt administrations in american history. Fair or unfair that there was this public perception that that was true. Well and of course andrew johnson things is unfair and also thinks he is destined for an immediate political comeback. As cooper is trying to convince him not to talk about yeah. This is one of the things that i found in my research on edmund cooper. There's not a lot out there about edmund cooper Not at least that. I've been able to find But i did come. Upon this story about edmund cooper kind of betraying andrew johnson after he was his sort of right hand man and his sword and shield throughout the impeachment process I came upon this. And i thought it was fascinating and i wanted to figure out a way to put it in there because the theme of betrayal is going to be such a big part of what this season is about And that will play itself out in. So many different ways that i wanted to have on johnson side of the story a personal betrayal. There's a quote. I think that appears in the third prologue episode. Where johnson says you know hamilton. Had burr washington had benedict. Arnold andrew johnson has ulysses s grant. Well that's a real johnson quote. What he actually said was washington had benedict. Arnold hamilton had burr. Andrew johnson has edmund cooper. And that's because cooper did betray johnson. Johnson wanted to To run for office and Cooper sort of undercut him and at the convention brought forth his own candidate and that was his brother henry. This is a a great time to segue. Though i think to one of our other new characters named thurman yes thurman actually a democrat from the north which we kind of introduce at this time. He's taking over the seat of benjamin wade. Benjamin wade is the person who would have taken over. If johnson's impeachment had one if they had been able to pass it and remove johnson. A lot of people did not like benjamin wade because he was a radical republican and he was very radical. And a lot of lot of these senators. Were not comfortable with him. Taking over in johnson's place But we see that. Benjamin wade has lost his election and now has been replaced by a democrat. So this is kind of the transition out of the radical republicans. We see them kind of slip into the background. A new form of the republican party emerges and. I think that the the important idea all of that is that the political sands are shifting. A little bit right. It's like benjamin. Wade is voted out replaced by northern democrat a radical republican replaced by northern democrat. Probably because he was a radical republican. And this this idea that this sort of the northern white population is going to grow weary of this reconstruction fight and this is i think historically pretty accurate the course of the next decade. They they start to have moral fatigue about it in a way and we lost As we saw in the last episode thaddeus stevens who was one of those pinnacles of the radical republicans. So you have benjamin. Wade being voted out. You fatty stevens passing away. And of course in in this episode we say goodbye to edwin stanton as well and so a lot of the great champions of the 'cause who were in the halls of power are are slipping away. Well i want to spend some more time talking about Stanton's last few scenes but before we get there. There's a few of the people that we meet. we meet de babcock. Who is the chief of staff not necessarily name but in in in service to to grant and we will. We will spend some time with him in this episode. Yeah orville babcock has a big part to play in season two. I don't wanna get too much into it. Because i don't wanna give anything away but for those out there who are history turns who loved to look up historical facts look orville babcock and you'll learn a little bit about what's coming Babcock is Someone that grant trust implicitly. They are close friends. Colleagues and allies Former military men together and their relationship is going to play a big part not only in our story but it does play a big part in the historical consequences of of grants time in the white house. Well and it stanton's act to come in and give him the news about this affair that he's uncovered when we when we hear how bad stanton's health really has become it is it is to inform him about babcock that he's come in and talk. Yeah and you know the the affair is real or at least the alleged affair real Stanton's role in revealing into grant is is our fiction. We've made that up But it's because we wanted to sort of raise the specter of babcock being an imperfect man and. We wanted to do it early. Because i think this gets into one of the things. That's the most interesting about general grant. He's a man who's known for being honest and yet somehow this ties back to the andrew. Johnson conversation that we just had but somehow this man is known for being honest. His name literally granted them become synonymous with corruption. That's also going to be a big part of what happens during the second season. And of course as always the case in american history. It's going to be the friedman in the native american population in the disenfranchised and disadvantaged that are going to pay the price for some of these personal foibles and it always centers around money. That's right so standing goes to babcock and tries to plead with him to take active steps to protect the president. And we get a sense of that kind of guilt of what happened to the president under his watch that he appeals to babcock and then as i understand it babcock immediately goes and tells the president that that he's coming done this right he flips on it. Yeah this is again a piece of fiction. This is not historically true. It is true that grant wanted to know guns policy and it is true that he did not want to look like a military dictator. And he didn't want the guns around. Mrs mrs grants and the first lady and his family an all. That's true but we sort of we wanted to to have stanton playing the part of soothsayer a little bit here. There's also of course. Another julius caesar reference that andrew johnson makes which is. Beware the ides of march. And it's getting into the betrayal a theme that is such a big part of the season But yeah so we. We wanted to have as many betrayals as we possibly could find and we also wanted to You know to kind of t up the idea that you know stanton's sands nearly run and stanton story is nearly over. He's trying still to the to the to the bitter end. Which is i think. Very true to who stands in was to do the right thing But like stats always does. When he tries to do the right thing he usually does it the wrong way with his foot in his mouth but he is still nevertheless offered a seat on the supreme court. Which is you know as the character says in the episode that the highest goal of his life. Yeah yeah there's a line where You know grant says. I don't need a campaign manager but i imagine the friedman could use a friend in the highest court in the land. I have stanton reply. It is the only public office i have ever truly desired. I would accept it with great pleasure. Which is a real stanton quote. But eric you uncovered some really really powerful Tragic correspondences from this period of stanton's life yes Stanton went through it basically. Once once he left office he stepped away for a little while And and actually recuperated a little bit and his health picked up And that's when he was campaigning for grant and but then his health took another dive. And yeah there's this really tragic letter. He wrote to a friend He says my dear friend contrary to my hope. When i saw you last. My health was not restored so that i could engage in business for a livelihood. My strength rapidly declined in the summer and with reluctance. I was compelled to leave home. I am entirely out of money traveling. Educating and providing for my children and otherness necessary expenditures. I have quite exhausted. My last winter's supply furnished by mr witt's kindness so that i'm compelled to apply to you for aid so he's like asking his friend for money because he's totally broke. And you know is proud as stanton was how hard this letter must have been. Yeah it's also it also points to two something else about stanton true. Which is that. I think he did. We love him or hate him. And i think people who know history of really strong feelings about him one way or the other But he sacrificed everything any this last line he says. Please let me know whether you can help me or not. Five thousand dollars would carry me through to another year. Even less would drive the wolf from the door. With kindest regards to you. And mrs watson and the children remain ever yours edwin m stanton and. That's one of the last letters he wrote. So he's got no literally. No friends left. No income no. No chances until grant extends this olive leaf yeah. This was the office that he wanted and fought for his entire life and when he finally gets it he's too sick to To sit on the bench and he passes away before he ever gets a chance to serve. Well before we get into the passing. I do want to say that as as wonderful as you're reading of that letter was eric We do have a lot of huge fans of edwin stanton of jeremy schwartz portrayal of edwin stanton. And so i just wanted to let you know that there are some some goodies for those of you. That are patriots subscribers. Eric talk about some of this For those of you. That are members of patriotic. End is is as low as five dollars a month. You have access to lot of bonus. Material and in one of the bonus series. We have is called in their own words and so it's the actual letters and speeches of these historical figures. You get to hear their actual words and it's it's really helpful because when you're hearing these disgusting words from andrew johnson you can go in here real speeches from him made to congress and go. Oh my gosh. A president actually said these things to congress but with stanton. If you need that. Jeremy schwartz fixed now. That stanton has gone. There's still lots more. Stanton jeremy schwartz sexy voice to hear Even in these moments of despair. I do want to say this though for everyone. Who is a diehard jeremy schwartz fan like like i know we all are Edwin stanton is coming back not just in the bonus content and in the inside the words but he's coming back to the story. I can't say much more than that. but what i can tell you. Is that as we move to the next chapter of the story. We're going to get outside of the halls of power and get out into the world of of the eighteen sixties eighteen seventies. We're gonna see what the impact of some of these political decisions are to some of the folks on the ground. Well i know what's to come. And i cannot wait for all of your listeners to get to hear that again i encourage you to check out our page on page and listen to some of those Letters read in the words of jeremy and some of the amazing actors that we have but more intrigue so many more new characters to introduce in the season that is to come. So thank you eric. And steve for joining me for this inside the episode. Thank all of you for listening and come back and listen to the next episode inside the episode eighteen sixty five be sure to follow us on twitter and facebook at eight hundred sixty five podcast for more inside information and true history from the show. Also if you really love the show and you wanna help us out. Please become a patron at patriotic dot com slash eighteen sixty five podcast members. They're get exclusive content early access ad. Free listening so much fun stuff as always. We're trying to find new ways to give back to our patriot community. So become a member yourself patriarch dot com slash. Eight to sixty five podcast. Thank you for listening. Eighteen sixty five is an airship production. This episode was hosted by me. Rob mccollum produced by eric. Chila fi music by lindsey graham. Be sure to tune in for the next episode of inside the episode eighteen sixty five. Hey i'm mike. Corey the host of wandry show against the odds and our next season were bringing you the story of john mccain an american hero and naval pilot who was shot down by the enemy over vietnam and taken in as a prisoner of war in this grueling survival story mccain must find a way to stay alive through solitary confinement and brutal beatings for over five years. It's an epic story of courage. Grit and how the battle to stay alive changes john mccain forever. Subscribe to against the odds on apple. Podcast amazon music the wondering app or wherever. You're listening right now.
Inside the Episode: S2E02
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It's the app the fines local pros for all your home projects. Hire a plumber to fix your leaky faucet or a handyman. To hang your curtains you can even higher approach road. Organizer messy closet. Yep there are people in your city who specialize in that. I actually just downloaded the thumb tack app and i could feel my apartment. Breathe a sigh of relief. Hello fresh paint an ac unit that actually works on the thumb tack app. You can compare. Prices read reviews and chat with pros directly. When you found the right person. You can book them with just tap. All of those annoying projects will just disappear. Maybe it is a little magic download them tack and start your next project today. Hello and welcome to inside the episode episode. Two of our special prologue episodes bridging the gap between seasons one and season two. I am one of the producers and directors rob mccollum. Joining me as always are eric are chiller stephen. Walters glad to be here. So we are continuing with the framing device of the charles. Dickens dinner with edwin stanton a fascinating and real event. That of course you have imagined what the conversation was. But i really love this kind of one. Framing device is taken through these two episodes. And we'll come back one more time when we are in. The flashback portion of this of the season and it's just again they're their personalities. Him starting to correct correct dickens views on his own writing. i think is very stanton. Yeah it is it is. It is very stanford i just the i mean. I know we talked a little bit about this in the last episode. But it's just hilarious to me. That stanton was able to quote dickens. In a way the dickens didn't know what he was talking about he was like wh. What was that from. So we move in now to the to the real efforts to to bring grant onside and we start off with a a an attempt of johnson. talking to grant after they've come back from the swing around the circle and is very clear that that grant is not wanting to be a political tool in the situation. Yeah and we are very lucky that we have a fantastic actor named james black. Who actually was in that production of all the way with me and john tyson. The actor who plays that stevens. That's where i first met. James longtime company member At the allie bray veteran incredible stage actor Who really. I think embodies this character fully and totally in breathes life into it in a way. That far exceeded my expectations. For what the role could be. I just think james is fantastic. Yeah this may be a little more inside production Than than history on this. But i just. I think whenever you're playing a a huge character that looms large in history there is always a desire as an actor to took play that as a huge and substantial thing because i am president and the way he comes under everything in this scene and through the rest of the to the rest of the season. is is so subtle and and delicate an interesting. I just think it's a great great portrayal deeply complicated deeply human. And that's the truth is as grant was a complex political figure in a complex human being. He was not monolithic. Not one dimensional. And i think that james really really tackles had boldly and fearlessly. I think you know the audience is going to be in for active a ride with james. But yeah i think rob. I think you're right. I mean it's very clear from the get-go johnson is immediately trying to get him to violate the tenure of office act and grant is not a political figure. I mean he. He's a political figure but he's not a political creature he doesn't have those innat- political instincts. I don i. In my interpretation of him i think that he's just is a law and order man you know. He's he's a bit like i you know he's a bit like what some people say. James is right somebody. That was just try to do the right thing. I think unlike the criticism of komi is that. I've heard people call him. A showboat in grant was certainly not that right. He just wanted to follow the law to the letter. He did not want to get in the middle of this mess between johnson and stanton and yet. That's exactly where he finds himself. He in fact he very privately addresses johnson about it. There's a a note where he says. I take the liberty of addressing you privately on the subject of the conversation that we had morning feeling as do the great danger to the welfare of the country should carry out the designs and expressed first on the displacement of the secretary of war. His removal cannot be affected against his will without the consent of the senate grant knew that it went against the letter of the law. Yeah order aaron of the trade that eric. That's in the very next scene between ely and Grant ellie expresses to him. You need to write down. You need to take notes of your conversations with him that you know. That's of course a little bit of a nod to james komi as well but What grant was doing by sending those letters to johnson was creating a paper trail and he and he. And i believe that it was by design. And i don't think it was. Because he had ambitions to position himself as a as a foil to johnson politically. I think it was to cover his rear end and to just make sure that there was a record a paper trail of of of exactly what transpired. He really seems to have a hope that by doing that. It might prevent the president from taking those steps as opposed to stanton who wants the president to take those steps in order to fall into his trap so that they can impeach. Similar conversation happens without steven. Saudi stevens is very much saying you know. I don't want to bait him into breaking the law. So i can impeach him. These laws were put in place so that we don't have these things happen. Yeah i think it's important to remember that even the term radical republican is sort of pejorative. Right i mean it's kind of an insult. It's like the idea that you think that people of color should have the same rights as white people is radical right and i i kind of nod to that in. I believe in this episode where you know thaddeus says i don't call myself radical. It may have been an episode one. But he says i don't call myself a radical because that was a term invented by my political enemies to demean my life's work and i think that that's something that gets lost when we talk about the radical republicans. You know it's it's shorthand in the eighteen sixty five universe but it's really a term that was insulting you know And i think it's important to remember that even though thaddeus was considered by some to be quote unquote radical. He wasn't a unhinged he was measured in whereas you know some people accuse edwin stanton of conspiring with congress to lay this impeachment trap. Honest read of history is that it was a bulwark right. It was a check on the president. It was a way to stop him from removing he people like edwin stanton or For that matter from positions that administered reconstruction so it was a way to prevent johnson from using the presidency in the white house to undermine the laws of congress. And i think a legitimate use of congressional law to say. Hey listen we are saying that. These laws have to be executed because we have passed the thirteenth in the fourteenth amendment. All were saying to you is. Is that if you're going to remove somebody who we have appointed. We should have a say in that. Because we want to make sure you're not doing it for subversive reasons you know Of course that is constitutionally problematic. The tenure of office act is. But i think it's it it certainly there. They had a legitimate point of view. So thaddeus stevens is pushing for restraint. A against the force of nature. That is stanton on the other side of the conversation. We have cooper and johnson and wells having in some ways similar conversations about about restraint and is great to have wells back in the story. We haven't heard a lot from him. but one of my favorite characters and one of my favorite actors j michael tatum voicing that character. It's good to hear from him again. Talk about that side of the equation. It's funny to me. The wells who's always been like this oily leach on johnson Now suddenly has a an outside force coming in and kind of getting in the way of his little cozy relationship with the president. Yeah and i mean. I think that well sees you know cooper's going to get him in trouble because cooper is not exercising restraint cooper. Is you know pushing the president toward being bold being fearless delivering For his friends down south and doing whatever he has to do to survive impeachment. And i think as a matter of politics. I actually think that wells' is restraint. Could've actually hurt. Johnson restraint that he's recommending. I think that some of the mood for as a matter of pure politics taking morality out of it. I think some of the things that johnson did were actually really smart. He you know. He presses the issue right. He doesn't believe that the tenure of office act is constitutional. And honestly it's not right. The president has the ability to fire. Whoever he or she wants right but on the other hand it has doesn't stanton even admit that like oh. I know it's not but it will work for right now. Yeah well till it gets thrown out in our telling right and are telling that that we certainly have stanton making that argument but I mean you've got to remember that you know stanton was i think was the eric my right about this. Wasn't he the one who wrote the opinion about why it was constant yet was on johnson's side. Arguing against it is pretending to be a good soldier. F atkinson one. Yeah but but i think it is smart politics. Cooper's ultimately the arc of course in these three episodes. He's pushing johnson towards being aggressive. And i think in a way. It is smart politics because it's like. This is an unconstitutional law. Let's challenge it. Let's push it products. Let's poke at it and let's get it to fall apart in front of the supreme court so the actions that they're taking are they have two purposes one of them is to like basically dismantle the law to take all the muscle out of it and then the more immediate purpose is to get stanton out of the way so that johnson can do what johnson wants to do which is basically re admit all the southern states put an end to reconstruction and call it finished done and ultimately johnson was actually right on the legal argument because the supreme court struck down the tenure of office act. Yes i do. Think it's funny. Eric like you said that wells has always been the whisper in the air. the president. And now there's cooper who's even more little finger than little finger. So he's being out little finger that his own gain access and war and has worn johnson to be careful with cooper and there's you know he it may prove without giving too much away may prove that that wells was right to To be concerned about cooper's true intentions well let me ask can i. can i please just at least right. your speeches andy says no no. I think it needs to come from me. So it's it's it's let johnson johnson again although i will say that wells did not like general grant and i actually put some of wells his words into cooper's mouth because it helped the story a little little bit but wells i believe was the one who said horseflesh has more charms for grant than the affairs of state or brains or intellect so so it's a wells did not particularly care for General grant a either at least Is as far as him being like. A you know a trustworthy public figure. I think it's probably worth mentioning that But we do we. Do you know on cooper side of the story. We do hear him articulate. What johnson's ultimate position His his political and legal opinion on the tenure of office was which is that it prohibits the president from removing the secretary of war and johnson's thought was since the senate is not in session and the legal argument that this is a holdover from lincoln's administration. He didn't appoint him. I can remove him temporarily and make grant quote interim secretary and that he escapes breaking that law. Y- which i mean this is a you know a parsing of words and you know a sort of dishonest argument. Illegal argument that that johnson is making. It's like well. I'm not really firing. Stanton like temporarily replacing him with grant until congress gets back in session and tells me whether i can do it or not. I mean it's you know he certainly. He wants stanton out of the office. There's no question about it right. Yeah grant said in. When he was handed the appointment he said. This is an order from the president. I do not see how i can disobey it right. And when grant accepted the democratic and copperhead papers said that johnson had been able to successfully get grant under his wing and patted him on. The back is one of them. So yeah you you can see why as a matter of political optics that would've mattered to andrew johnson right. I mean even if there's no political future with grant in the democratic party the perception that there is alliance between grant and johnson and the democratic party is extremely politically beneficial. because he is the hero of appa matic's he's beloved north and south. Even by like i mentioned earlier because of his actions at apple. Matic's there were many in. The south really believed that he was an honest broker and really trusted him and In spite of the fact that he had obviously led the you know led the forces that led to their defeat. But i just think it's a. It's an interesting political issue that that doesn't have a lot of similarities to our current climate. But says a lot about what reconstruction politics all about well in last time when when stanton was forcibly removed from his office. He barricaded himself in and arrested. Lorenzo thomas but this is a. This is a different a different story here. This is the this is the hero up addicts. he's not. He's not as easily able to brush this aside. If there was i think if he was replaced by anyone else he would put up more of a fight but the fact that it was grant and then i think he he knew the kind of man that grant was that he was willing to step aside temporarily for grant while they while the senate sorts it out. Yeah and. I think that it was sort of like well. Let's let's see how political question plays itself out you know in. I think he did trust that. Grant would be a good steward of reconstruction in spite of the fact that he did have some concerns about him. I think what's interesting though. Is that while grant is trying irrespective of what stanton's agenda is grants while he's out there trying to do the right thing and follow the law. You got the president telling the press. This is a quote that grant was. You know he the that he was basically playing a political game. The quote is that he was trying to position himself as the quote radical candidate for the presidency. So while while grant is trying to stay out of politics you got president. Johnson going everything. He's doing his political right now. And i guess there are some historians out there who would say that johnson was right about that. I just happen to think that. It's pretty ludicrous. I mean feels to grant is sort of swept into the presidency. And that's kind of the story that we're telling with this. This three episode flashback. While i really like an early seeing that you have with with parker and And grant the idea that he he wants to go home. He wants to go back to galena. He doesn't want to to continue on his his. His watch is ended in his mind and parker is the one that says yet may not be that easy sir. He just wants to spend time with his horses. Wanted to do the right horses. It's always horses with him. One other thing that comes up in this episode we hear a lot of reference to offering granted drink and we see him drinking on the same and i know that was that was part of his personal demons that he really battled with yeah You know there's a story about about grant that he was dismissed from a military post. He was essentially removed from a position. Because of drunkenness drunken disorderly behaviour. There's some debate. I think among legitimate historians. I'm not an expert on grants drunkenness. But there is some debate about whether it's been overstated. You know there are some people would say he was definitely what we would today. Call an alcoholic There are others who say that. That was a political story fabrication a political attack on his character. That was not as real is. It was made how to be but my my read is certainly in the character that were building about ulysses grant is my sort of take on it. Is that you know. He's he's struggling with a form of of post traumatic stress. Disorder and using alcohol is a form of medication. That's sort of my theatrical. take on it I think that there's some evidence to suggest that grant was haunted by the civil war. You know that he was haunted by the decisions that he made you know. He was called by the people of the south at times. A butcher his image in the minds of many southerners was rehabilitated. Because of how generous he was at appa matic's that's sort of my take on the character of granted. I'm building as somebody who's deeply tormented from the tough decisions that he's had to make and is reluctant to be put in a physician again to have to make them well. One of the decisions he has to is whether to take that office that the president commands him to take he does do that. But then the the senate comes back and and and reverses that what was the what was the return of stanton's office like i. It was without incident or drama. Grant didn't want it so the minute that the senate ruled that had to be reinstated. Grant relinquish the office immediately. He did not blink then. I think that that's a testament to who grant really was that he was just trying to follow the law grant. Stepping aside does not make johnson happy Because he thought he had him as a loyal servant and now he he steps out and basically embarrasses johnson by putting his enemy back in the office sustained gives the office back but also there seems to be a slight shift here to me in that. That stanton realizes that other people are going to have to take up this torch that he's not gonna be able to do it all on his own anymore. Yeah and this is this. Is you know the the drama of a right. This isn't necessarily historically accurate I think what we're you're exactly right. Rob i mean i think we we allude to this in the first the foreseen with dickens right. Where he he's he's talking about you know tale of two cities and he's talking about who the actual hero of the story is and he's kind of reflecting on himself is like well in the way. I am the hero. Even though it's not all about me he's starting to recognize that the story might not just be his That's sort of what we're doing theatrically. But i think in in real history this when you know when grant gave the office back to stanton and then what he ultimately does which is sort of kind of fully and totally side with the radical republicans. There was this idea that people were worried which they were basically worried about which side of the aisle grant was going to land on right. There was there was. There is certainly in the eyes of radicals a genuine concern that he might become a political ally of andrew johnson fully. And totally that he might even become a full blown democrat right and that he might actually become president as a democrat It wasn't clear to people who grant was going to be. And i think we're dramatizing that with stanton that it's not clear to him either You know it's interesting that there's a line in there where thaddeus says let him in the church and that's from a real real quote. The fatty is said not to stanton about grant is he said. He's a boulder man than i thought him. Now we will let him into the church. I'm of playing that idea out and exploring it a little bit. That that stanton starting to see a his story he might not even be the hero of it and be general grant might not be the man that he thought that he was and that maybe it might be time to To give him a chance to grab hold of the torch Of you know the the ideals that that lincoln died for to carry that torch forward and that sort of the idea that we're setting up Moving forward and also it's not just his his view of history that makes him think maybe it's time to pass the torch but as we see from the visit from the doctor. His health is still not good right. Yeah and you know we put that of course is fully fictionalized moment with the doctor and ellie parker but the reason we put that in was to just remind The listener that it's dancing is not in in good health and that he is probably a man who is not long for this world. And i think you know. He's kind of seeing thaddeus stevens own declining health and it's causing him to sort of reflect back on his own and you know confronts his own mortality And i think that that's also playing in to this idea that that stanton's having this this this permission that that somebody has to finish the fight right that his days are numbered that he's not gonna be able to do it and that somebody's going to have to pick up that torch and going to have to carry it across the finish line and he's starting to sort of consider the possibility that it might be ulysses s grant well and it also neatly. Arc's you know with our story arc in that that again. Spoilers were not there yet but but stanton is not the only character that this this next season focuses on. There's going to be a big story that that kind of evolves beyond him and so we're just seeing some hints of that now. I think it's fascinating that both political parties are in the back of their mind thinking that maybe grant could be. Their guy is crazy in modern political terms ago. Like we think he's going to run. We don't know which side yet it could be either one. Yeah and. I think that you know what we've learned about grant so far and i think we'll see this play out throughout the rest of the season as that at its core. He is an honest broker. He's an honest man. Know he doesn't his his. His common cause with stanton is simply about their shared ideals for the vision of the future of the friedman the future of the country and what reconstruction should look like they are allies in that but l- allies in methodology at all. And you know this conflict will play itself out in in later episodes as but you know grant is an honest man. I think we'll find in some cases to honest too trusting to loyal to true and his You know without giving much away. His greatest strength In some ways becomes his greatest vulnerability much more intrigue still left to come much more of grant story. Stanton story a little bit more dickens. Even lots more to listen to thank you guys both of you for sitting down with me to talk about episode to thank you all for listening. Keep letting us know what you think. Eric how can they. How can they give us that feedback. How can they hear more. We'll definitely follow us on at eight hundred. Sixty five podcast on twitter. Check us out on facebook and if you wanna listen to the show without any ads but you still want to be able to support us than you can join our patriot account patriot dot com ford slash. Eight hundred sixty five podcast. We've a lot of perks on their annotated scripts. Oh if you wanna see some some more historical detail. You can listen to both versions of the show that we originally released on stitcher and the public release. You can hear lindsey graham's incredible score there's bonus content right there some additional speeches and stories from the different characters owners content. Yeah all right. Thank all of you for listening. Remember to follow us on twitter and facebook and all of the social media places. Make sure listen to episode three our third and final prologue episode. And then come right back here and check in on eighteen sixty five inside the thank you for listening. Eighteen sixty five is an airship production. This episode was hosted by me. Rob mccollum produced by arteelah feet music by lindsey graham. Be sure to tune in for the next episode of inside the episode eighteen sixty.
Inside the Episode | 10
"Hello and welcome to eighteen sixty five inside by the episode. I'm rob mccallum the producers and joining me for this episode ten inside the episode or writer stephen walters america chiloe again. Hey rob. I've always welcome back guys. He's so it is it is tense. It is all happening now. The attempts to prove this conspiracy. It's his last chance to do that. And the story of how far edwin stanton is willing to go to prove this conspiracy to set that all up we start with a flashback to abraham abraham lincoln on the day. That stanton tried to resign. That really happened right here. Yes that actually happened. He tried to resign and it was about his health and <hes> lincoln begged him to stay and this is actually from a letter that stanton wrote to one of his friends. He quoted what lincoln said to him about the he needs stanton to stay around and make sure that the bag stays tied that that stanton's nuts don't slip up which is something that we i alluded to. I think in episode four. He says he tells langston. He who says you know lincoln said about me once that you know some not slip in yours do not well. The not is starting to slip <unk>. Who you've already seen has some some misgivings about <music> out the treatment of mary surat <hes> he and macphail go to the prison and talk to pain lewis pain powell <hes> who we've discussed before <hes> somebody attacked sewer and he was the the madman that went in and stabbed up the seward home and <hes> stanton can't use him because seward's i mean stanton can't accuse him because pain is pretty tight lipped and so he is not saying anything and <hes> actually in recorded history they talk about the pain was banging hanging his head against the wall of the montauk the prison ship saying i'm mad. I'm mad. I man he was his cuckoo for cocoa puffs but also looked like some a model model. If you ever look at the pictures that they tried to take the pain he wouldn't keep his face forward because he looks like he's doing blue steel from zander well and i you know pains a very interesting character <hes> in part because he was tight-lipped but also in part because of how horrifically violent he he he really was right. The attack on seward was devastated. Yeah apparently he was kicked in the face by a horse <hes> and it affected his brain rain so that's one of the stories that kicked out about him and then interesting fact about him. We talked about the fires of new york in the last episode. <hes> pain was actually on that mission mission lighting those fires of new york actually know that another little connection and here's another good fit pain factoid which i believe is historically true when the detectives went to mary surat's tavern to question her pain walked in and just kind of was in the wrong place at the wrong time and so they arrested marion liam payne at the exact same time and so pain says well. I don't know her and she says well. I don't know him and stanton and detectives are thinking well. Somebody here is lying. Somebody's not telling the truth and that would not be the first lie that mary would tell mary did no pain. An eckerd actually spent a lotta time on the montauk visiting with with both mary and <hes> lose lose pain powell yeah and this is something that really happened. They secured a statement from pain. Who at this point had already been sentenced to death had basically already just resigned himself to the fact that he was gonna die didn't even try to defend himself in the tribunal they go to him to secure a statement saying that mary's innocent which he gives them and we can also see in the story that the relationship unshipped between eckert and stanton is really fractured at this point yes they actually go macphail and <unk> go to stanton with this statement eight minutes from pain and say just just let her off the hook. Just do the right thing. I think eckerd did do that. I don't know that macphail was with him but i think that i don't know that we explicitly know that but i think that he did right eric. I mean that's why he went and secured it. In the first place yeah 'cause he was the one that was going back and forth between the prisoners and stanton and i think that we see in some of the language of the actual resignation letter and the acceptance between eckert and stanton of some alluding to some things about trust in him being able to rely on eker with sensitive matters and there's just some awkwardness there between the two of them so i think it was because eckert was was not four four what stanton was doing and i believe that the reason that stanton was doubled down on mary sarah in particular being found guilty being sentenced to death because of this idea of drawing out her son which this idea really comes to a head in this episode. There's a really interesting history about john surat about why they couldn't find him in about where he was so ed. Let's let's talk about that because the whole point is that once the news reaches him that his mother is going to be hung he will step forward and try to save her but we don't know that that news ever reached him right surat what had had apparently crossed over into canada and then the catholic church helped to sneak him away to italy they gave him asylum they gave him a silom at so they hit him in canada for a while and then they and it's believed that always on update boat headed for rome while his mother was being hung then years later <hes> surat is extradited and sent back to the united states and what we've learned about him is that surat has been and this is historical that he has been a papal people guard in rome so he's been serving in rome this whole time. I also think it's interesting that after he came back you told me the steve that he went on a speaking circuit well first first of all when he comes back this is not in this series but when he comes back he is pardoned by andrew johnson and after that goes around basically on a lecture series telling the story three of his involvement with the kidnapping plot <hes> to trade lincoln for troops and interestingly one of the things that he admits in that that that that speech that he famously went around the country giving. He admits that he met with the confederate secretary of war just days before lincoln was assassinated but he does is not say that he had anything to do with he maintained. It was always just about the kidnapping and the booth went off the reservation. Yes did the assassin but it's very hard to read what he says about meeting with a confederate the secretary of war and not interpreted that he in fact did know what was going on and maybe part of it eric anything to add to that i just wanted to say that stanton had obviously easily hung it all on mary not use the wrong term <hes> and that the whole country was talking about wil in johnston step forward will he will not be a coward and let his mom die for his crimes so i think the majority of the country knew that john surat could exonerate his mother and everybody was wondering if this guy was gonna show up well also. It's important to remind folks. This is the first time time that a woman has ever been <hes> convicted for capital crime in the in the us right which is which is when people are in the series fighting her not hanging. I don't think so much that they don't think that she's guilty. It's that they don't think she's guilty enough to be hung. 'cause they've never hung a woman before in this country yeah and in fact the <hes> the military tribunal didn't say hey we want to offer this clemency request to the president on behalf of mary surat because she's innocent they say on account of her age and sex and the clemency issue is obviously an interesting one because edwin stanton or so the story goes had the ability to deliver this clemency requested johnson to spare mary's rots life and did not <hes> though history doesn't tell us if that's actually true but that is what is alleged. There's a lot of discrepancy there <hes> some people say that stanton did deliver it but it was in the giant stack of legal papers on middle on him so that he wouldn't find it and see it. <hes> other people say that johnson saw it and still signed away and then later said he never saw it <hes> so there's a lot of conflicting surgeries. It's also true <hes> while stanton had the ability to save mary's life <hes> by delivering this clemency requests to to the president the president himself self had an opportunity to spare her life when mary soroti lawyer raised a judge in the middle of the night the the day before the execution and that judge issued a writ of habeas corpus corpus which is essentially a document that says this woman has constitutional rights and that she must that her case must be heard in a civilian trial and i always find it interesting the exact words that he used in there was i deny this this rid of corpus especially in this case so he made a a little dig to say above all. I'm not giving it to mary. Sarah well in johnston didn't have a whole lot to gain from. Mary surat's death it. Certainly certainly he was dragged through the mud in the press over it and of course johnson at that time was trying to unify the country and the people of the south did not nor the people at the border states they did not take kindly to this southern woman being executed <hes> so we sort of thought. Why did he do that and maybe there was some dirt. There may be in the in the actual what really happened. Which of course we'll never know which is incredibly frustrating but makes good drama. Maybe it was l. a. star. Maybe it was something else but we wondered hey. Maybe there's there's something johnson didn't want people to know well and it's also one of the biggest questions for me and my daughter man and who's come to all the readings of the plays and the performances the place her biggest this question all the way through his why did stanton let her die after the gambit were and i think it's the question that can't be answered and we don't know you guys don't you don't necessarily give the reason for that in this so it's a thing that all of us in the audience are going to have to be left to to question but when he had that that opportunity after it was clear that johnson was not gonna come forward. Why did he let it go. Through was it was it vengeance was it peak was at wanting someone to to be to be punished for the crimes against lincoln <hes> and it's one one of those things that makes him such an interesting character because it is a conflicted character and the answer to that question is is there is no answer to that question. I mean in all of the above or none of the above. It's it's impossible to say <hes> am i. We didn't feel in a place to assign certain motive to stanton on that decision i think i think it's a confluence of all of those things. It's the guilty feels out of denying security for president lincoln. It's a it's a sense of justice. It's trying to prove his case. It's trying to not back back down to leave the door open for universal amnesty and i think it's also the fact that he really believes she was guilty. There's a lot there is popular history. That would say is even in a movie about it. <hes> the <hes> called the conspirator <hes> that that sort of paint stanton is is somebody who kind of wanted to murder this woman woman <hes>. I have a hard time accepting that version of events. I have a hard time accepting that it was a it was an act of cold blooded murder. I think it's much more complicated than that. Well speaking of complicated this this final moment of the story which first of all is so powerful the the the drum roll and the the drop of off of mary when she's being hung in her final tony those her actual the final moment of the episode. Don't let me fall yet. That's those were actual. Words up. Bond the up on the scaffold and she said let me fall and we get into this in the next episode. I think it's an a telegraph but the whole thing is they described it in the papers was a bungled affair. I think like lewis powell for example. I think his die immediately dies strangled yeah. The whole thing was pretty horrific and both johnson and stanton were criticized criticized in the press <hes> as a result of of the outcome of this tribunal will in terms of where that leaves our story the attempt to prove the conspiracy has has in in many many ways fallen short the chances of surat being found or now gone stanton is a is a broken is a broken man so so where does it go from here and how does the story continue. There's only one way to find out you have to tune in and listen wanna thank erika chile and steve walters for being here also so executive producer lindsey graham and thank you for listening and if you'd like to support this kind of storytelling and ensure that we can continue to tell more stories like these supporters at patriotair dot com slash eighteen sixty five members there get advanced access to episodes bonus features a free copy of the soundtrack album. That's patriot dot com slash slash eighteen sixty five mccollum. Thanks for listening to eighteen sixty five inside the abs.
Inside the Episode: S2E03
"Orphan black is back. Realm presents orphan. Black the next chapter the official podcast continuation of the hit. Tv series starring emmy award winning orphan. Black star tatyana. Ms lonnie comic book com calls. This a truly thrilling sequel. That captures the mystery. Humanity and heart of the original series. Been eight years project. Leader was destroyed for good but all is not well when a dangerous genetic technology is stolen and an unknown clone appears cosima and the other clones are forced to struggle for survival. Fans are raving about this series. And it's currently the number one fiction. Show on apple podcasts. New episodes drop every week. Learn more at realm dot fm. And be sure to listen and subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts. We get support from thumb tack. How will you ever stop your to do list from growing. You could become a magician or you can do what i did and download thumb tack. It's the app the fines local pros for all your home projects. Hire a plumber to fix leaky faucet or a handyman. To hang your curtains you can even higher approach to organize your messy closet. Yep there are people in your city who specialize in that. I actually just downloaded the up. And i could feel my apartment. Breathe a sigh of relief. Hellofresh paint an ac unit. That actually works on the thumb tack app. You can compare. Prices read reviews and chat with pros directly when you found the right person. You can book them with just a tap. All of those annoying projects will just disappear. Maybe it is a little magic download. Them tack start your next project today. Low and welcome to inside the episode eighteen sixty five i am one of the producers rob mccallum and joining me as ever. Eric are chila and stephen. Walters guys could talk to you again. I everybody hey rob. So you've made it through episode. Three and i will tell you. The final of are kind of three episode. Look back where we set the season Kind of the flashback. Episodes that have been framed by the conversations with dickens and so now that we are through this we will be looking all in real time at this point forward in the story. Will we'll kind of pick up where we left off. We've caught up caught up to the time line. So this this this what we reveal in this moment. Is that the dinner between Stanton and dickens Occurred right on the heels of grant. Giving the office back to stanton. And that sort. Of why i. I picked this conversation. Is the framing device. For these these three episodes It felt appropriate to the time line. And also you know appropriate to this this thing that we've talked about about stance and kind of realizing that he might not be the hero of the story right we. We learned this right about edwin stanton throughout season one. That he's a deeply flawed. Figure a complicated figure in so many ways on the right side of history but in so many ways not and i think that you know. He doesn't live up to the promises that he's made to john mercer langston into the friedman into the cause of equality in so many ways he fall short wracked with guilt about His his decisions that he's made in his. I don't know call it complicity. He feels that he has in in lincoln's death. And so we sort of are tying all that up and teeing up. what's to come. Which is which is not the story of edwin stanton but the story of policies grant and his presidency and his fight for reconstruction one thing that i. I always hope that with the series. Is that people never you. At least our depiction of stanton is trying to make him a white savior He's a deeply flawed person. And he his you know his heart is in the right place but we. I think we show that even someone with the best intentions still fails ultimately To to protect the friedman in the way that they should have. And i think the reality of american history that it is not a story of white savior figures right. I mean it's a story of flawed men and women's ewing in some in some cases the best that they can in some cases not doing enough in some cases actively trying to subvert or block progress but the story of american history is the story of the struggle of individuals. Either trying to make the constitution live up to its highest. Ideals are trying to impede that that process stanton's and interesting figure because he is trying to make the constitution live up to its highest ideals but he's so flawed in the way does it. I think what will learn about grant is that he is a different version of that. Same story yeah exactly. I've said before that. I really loved these scenes Between between stanton dickens. I really liked this. This framing device and these performances. The only thing i was most sad about was that we weren't able to have david charles. And jeremy schwartz. Together to record that i don't think you can tell from the performance but because of covid was recorded very differently than any of season one was and so i thought we talked about that for a second just on the inside the episode. How different it was having everyone be separate this year. I mean even right now. We're doing the inside the episode role in separate rooms which is just very strange. Yeah it was a very different process. You know it was very important to me Early on and i know rob. You directed a big chunk of of seasonal one to unite. Talked a lot about this. Is that what we wanted as much as possible to get the actors in a room together so that they could have that real organic response And so this was just a different process. I mean it's bizarre to think that james black who plays ulysses s grant has never met. Jeremy schwartz The only example who plays edwin stanton masterfully but the only example in season one. There are two. I believe of actors who were not in the room together. Ever was read bernie who played senator hale recorded all on his own and william jackson harper who plays john mercer langston Who who will be returning in season two. He also recorded on his own. And it's interesting. Because i'm not sure that in the end. I'm not sure that it makes a difference but i guess it does to me and if you're one of our listeners. Tell us if you if you can notice a difference. Tell us if there is. I mean i think it'll be. I'll be curious to know what the what the audience thinks about it. But yeah it's been a bizarre year for the country for the world Covid covid nineteen is turned everything upside down and so we have done remote recording. We've done zoom sessions where were directing actors over zoom and we are recording all the actors individually and so it's a directing load is a little heavier this year. Because you have to track what the other actor was doing sort of make sure that the two things kind of fit and i think when the directing is doing its job. You don't notice matter. We lucky to have such an incredibly talented cassius able to pull that off. That's the other great thing. Is that with the with the first of the actors of the caliber. We have like you said eric just that they now know these characters. The andrew johnson and and stanton are part of the bodies. Now of those actors. Jeremy schwartz can do stanton reading the phone book and it will still sound like edwin stanton and our bruce elliott can be andrew johnson. You know doing a commercial for a netflix show. And it's still going to sound like andrew. Johnson he hasn't in his bones now. So that's made it a lot easier moving into season two with the existing characters a tremendous compliment that that both arbor's elliott. Who's johnson and jeremy schwartz. Who stanton they have both gotten the compliment. That people have heard the show in and said they can't hear anyone else ever playing those characters because their voices nailed it so so well as to how they imagined to be and we should. Also i think hats off to lindsey graham executive producer and sound designer Who also does audio mixing and is sort of the the audio genius behind the scenes on this thing the fact that he is able to make. It seem like they're in the room the performances help it. Sodas lindsay's Very masterful intricate detail design. Work as well yeah. I think that's one of the things that that is rare in our podcast And a lot of people have commented on is that that really does the the environmental field rooms the spaces you hear them the horses in the street outside and things like that that make. It really seem like we are. We are set up. Microphone or shooting a film in eighteen. Sixty five exactly in little. Does the the audience probably know that. A lot of these actors are in their closets. Because it's also not safe to send people into studios all the time You know each are actors have spread out all over. The country at a bulk of them are here in dallas texas. Some of them are in los angeles summer in new york in summer spread out another places summer in london so you know in every city. Their unique cove restrictions and challenges. And so the safest thing to do is often to send equipment to the actor which we've done in many cases and in other cases a lot of actors have their own setups at home already. But you know like a lot of the time people were in their closet just sort of like huddled in a corner just like deeply emoting which is kind of a strange thing but for those. That are not familiar with with vocal recording. Yes the closet is actually the best place in the house to record because the closed dampened the the echo in the second best place i've heard is to cover yourself with like a comforter and sit on your bed both of those things i have had to do. Luckily those who was the baker living invoice though that that was one area of work and production that could continue. Yeah during the shutdown. So a lot of voiceover actors were actually able to stay very busy and pay their bills so fortunate in that way but i do very much look forward to the wrap party the cast party whatever we do when we can invite these people together some of them will be seeing each other for the first time but actually you know they've done these brilliant scenes together and never met face to face looking forward to that and i feel i feel very lucky. I should say that we've been able to make something during this time You know it's been a. It's been a blessing. It's been a a an escape and a much needed one. I think for a lot of people on the production team and we hope that the audience loves it and we hope that you've enjoyed it so far all right well. That's enough behind the curtain. Now let's go back into our story Here we get to see after the speech johnson expressing his displeasure with grant for so casually turning the office back over to To stanton he is clearly not happy. Yeah he's not happy and of course. We put some some very offensive words in johnson's mouth just to remind the listener that that johnson was a pretty offensive guy. These are not quotes. Obviously we don't know that. Johnson told this particular offensive joke but he tries to tell it in this episode. Not once but twice. He is not happy with grant he gave him express orders and he feels that that grant has has flouted his authority in his face and You know what we're setting up is is the ultimate parting of ways between these. Two men grant is going to move further and further and further away from johnson towards his ultimate destination of Running for president and he's going to move closer and closer to edwin stanton in the process. Well and yeah the just the kind of awful nature of this whole exchange really. I think at least in terms of our story cements a course of action in. Grant's mind because in the in the next few scenes we we see him decide to turn over those letters. Those contemporaneous notes that we've talked about in reference to grant and kind of his. Jim thome moment of turning those letters over to thaddeus stevens. I'm yeah this is a tremendous modern parallel because We had that that moment and current events where where james komi had taken notes during his conversations rafters conversations with the president because he knew that those might be relevant later to a congressional hearing Because the president was asking you to do things that were possibly or probably illegal. Yeah and you know this is that he is who has been exercising restraint Point in saying hey. I'm waiting on evidence. that's what i'm waiting for. He now has his first piece of evidence and this was the real first piece of evidence. There was a there. Were a lot of different ways. We should probably say that. Congress tried to go after johnson. You know they tried to look into allegations of bribery. I mean there were allegations that the you know. The johnson was pardons in in return for bribes and political favors. You know there were allegations that he had committed financial crimes. There were tons of allegations of corruption. You know i mean some of it got a little a little wacky. That was going to say in fact we originally when we were writing this this basically preamble to grant story. It was four episodes because we got into the weeds about all of these congressional moves. We decided we wanted to get into grant a little bit faster. You know it was interesting. One of the ways. That congress tried to impeach johnson was they had a. I guess his name was was at baker was lafayette baker erich yeah colonel lavi baker baker basically testified to congress that johnson ran a network of prostitutes who all throughout the south. We're helping him sort of facilitate this like this quid pro quo of of bribes for pardons and You know cash for pardons basically. They weren't able to prove it. And the other assertion. I think that that baker made was that he had seen a letter between johnson and confederate. President jefferson davis where baker described it as that that johnson had told jefferson davis in this letter that he would quote. Go with them them. Meaning the rebels go with them. Meaning collude with them But that was thrown out because baker was like when when he was pushed on it by the I believe it was the judicial committee when he was when he was pressed to say. Hey how can you prove this. Can you prove that that this letter exist. He's like well no. Because i don't have it in my possession and i don't remember who gave it to me and says a little difficult. Yeah i was a little difficult to prove so ultimately thaddeus to sing. Listen we're not going to go after him about on these wild conspiracy theories we're gonna wait till we have something concrete in this moment in real history because of ulysses grant he had it and again from an unimpeachable source. This was not as supposed letter provided by a prostitute. This was the hero app. Amana hero of app matic's the most revered man in american public life. At that time you know the the hero of the civil war. So he was. He was trustworthy. No one had any reason to question what he wrote down in those letters. He had a paper trail to prove it because he had backed it up and he hands it off. And i think what's interesting about grants again. He he hands it off and then he takes a step back. He doesn't get involved. He doesn't he doesn't wanna testify. Which is something that also has some resonance to some events that we saw say with like john bolton right who had who maybe had a story to tell related to some of those events surrounding the first impeachment of donald trump but did not wanna testify did not want to be part of the public circus of all grant had a similar feeling like he turned in the evidence. He took a step back and he didn't want to be involved well. And we see the press conference with grant being pressed by members of the media to try to to build that out and again it's clear. He does not want to be a a in this game if he can avoid it. Yeah and you know with one of the quotes. I pulled a to put into this fictionalized. Press conference is a real when he wrote grant. Andrew johnson wrote mr president when my honor is a soldier and integrity is man have been so violently sailed. Pardon me for saying. I cannot but regard this whole matter from the beginning to the end as an attempt to involve me in the resistance of law for which you hesitated to assume the responsibility and orders and thus to destroy my character before the country pretty strong words we also in this episode here an interview with a reporter and this is this is something that really happened ran a real interview. Yeah it's a real interview. I mean we obviously distill atten. Cut it in kind of tied up a little bit but the substance of it is real. He really did. Tell this story which i think you just completely made up where linkin essentially suggest that grant is racist. And it's i mean that's like that's such. It's such a ludicrous fact. The fact that johnson actually said this to the press he said well you know one. Time abraham lincoln said grant might have been a racist. I mean that's that's unbelievable to me that he actually said that and again if you just keep saying it to the press that will get printed and get repeated. It's a tactic that That he did not invent nor was he the last two us one using using what lincoln said was also a tactic like in the senate hearings. stanton relating. What lincoln told him. Like everyone's everyone's putting words in lincoln's mouth. Yeah for their own purposes. Yeah and i think what. Johnson if i if i recall that story correctly what johnson says. He's like i. I once read this article where grant said that. This was a white man's government. And i went to abraham lincoln. I said mr president is this true. He say this and lincoln shook his head. And said i'm afraid so i mean it's pretty it's pretty brazen and completely unverifiable because the person that you're you're commenting has passed and and then that very same interview. Johnson says what this is all been about this whole thing has been about grant positioning himself to be the radical candidate for the presidency and meanwhile grant is thinking. That's the last thing i want. And there's that word radical again so it's funny that in the same in the same speech. He accuses of being a racist but then accuses of being so far to the to the radical side. Yeah yeah and. I think it's probably worth saying to eric that i mean. I think you'd probably agree with this. That it's grant. He's interesting because he doesn't want the presidency but he also doesn't want the presidency i mean he gladly ultimately graciously accepts the nomination. This is an interesting quote. He wrote this to his wife julia. He said She asked him if you wanted to be president and grant wrote her. No but i do not see that i have anything to say about it. The convention is about to assemble in from all. I hear they will nominate me. And i suppose if i am nominated i will be elected. So it's interesting right. He's it's i mean. I think that the cynical view of grant is is johnson's view which is that he's playing politics. He's positioning himself in the public eye. Is this man of honor and integrity. I think the more realistic view is that that's just who he was. He's he's washington. Yeah he yeah. He wants to go home but in service of his country he does what he thinks the country needs. And that's and that's why in this episode we've vote shays rebellion as part of his arc because he is washed in washington fought for freedom and fought to install the constitution and grant fought to put the country back together. You know he he. He fought you know. Washington fought to win the war. Revolution in grant is going to have to fight to win the peace so in terms of fight thaddeus stevens now with the evidence he needs enhanced decides it is time for him to take up the fight And despite his health decides to go on and make an impassioned speech talk about that moment in actual history. Well yeah like we've mentioned this. I think another inside the episodes but he was in poor health yet. A stomach condition. That was eating him and he was not long for this world he was so ill I read that he had to be carried into the house chamber. And so we sorta borrow that That fact input into stanton's mouth stanton says you will keep going. You will finish. This and i will carry you into the chamber if i have to it also rob. It gives us an opportunity to bring back john bingham who actually in our dramatization of it gets to finish Thaddeus speech on the floor of the house speaking of back in the story and rearing his head again. Wells is back. Wells' back talking with cooper about their strategy and how they're going to deal with the fact that that this impeachment now is moving forward. Yeah and you know. This is one of the things that's interesting is is in the middle of all of this impeachment Sort of back and forth edmund cooper is is suddenly elevated to what is essentially the treasury secretary. He is sort of suddenly given access to the nation's pursestrings which of course in real history all of johnson's political enemies cried foul at they actually said. Hey you just violated the tenure of office act again and you know he said no no. No he's just the interim secretary. And i think his actual title was that he was the assistant. Secretary of the treasury's this is how they ended up kind of like working around it. I guess But a lot of johnson's political enemies. I cried foul. So we sort of dramatized that tension using wells the new and improved jiminy cricket wells as is our Is there a way in there. So stevens is clearly in bad shape. And there's a really poignant seeing that you've written between stevenson stanton here talking about moving forward and putting the fight behind grant. Yeah this is the sort of final beat of this like three episode arc that we built To kind of introduce stick to really let stanton guide our listeners into the grant story Before we sort of take off and and run in a new direction It's kind of the final beat fulfilling what we talk about in the cold open of episode. Where you know stanton tells dickens. I might not be the hero of the story at all It's kind of the final led him in the church. Moment this is where stanton resolves that it's like all right. I may have my concerns about this man But i'm i'm i'm i'm going to fight to put him in in the office. I think that he says you know when stanford says. I'm not even sure that he wants the president's e. fatty says then you're going to have to convince him and thaddeus remind stanton wide. Let you in the church once. And i think this is an interesting parallel between the two men. There aren't many honestly in interest full disclosure but one of them is is that they were both once. Democrats presumably release voted democrat and they both paddock conversion. You know they both sort of like changed in pivoted their their political allegiances in pursuit of higher ideal. And i think that that's unique in all politics and all the history of american politics. It's certainly very uncommon in the modern era but it wasn't very common in the eighteen sixties. Either and so. I think it was worth mentioning so when we have thaddeus they don't forget i let you in the church. Once had plenty of doubts that's a reference to the fact that That stanton used to be a democrat. And then we've got a grant who still needs convincing himself that he's going to run for president as well. Yeah 'cause grant still does. I mean an are telling of it. He still doesn't want to have anything to do with his job is done. Impeachment is going to play out the way it's going to play out. He's not going to testify. He's not gonna break the law. He's not going to be an ally to anyone he's just going to do his job and go home. So finally have the the the central focus of season one meeting what is going to become the central focus of season to stanton and grant finally having their first conversation that we hear about. Yeah that's right so this is obviously a fictionalized conversation. But you know for our story. This is stanton's attempt to to motivate grants and. He's made the decision that he needs to be the next president he needs to stand as the republican nominee. A grant still doesn't want to do it and in my dramatization of it my thinking of it. I know eric feels this way to with. Ptsd idea keeps coming back that he's haunted by the faces of these dead soldiers that he's reluctant to to to have to be in a position of power because he doesn't want to make decisions that of life and death ever again and we kept these two characters apart the entire time we've been talking about grant This is the first time that we actually have them. Make contact with each other. Even though historically obviously Stanton and grant communicating all through the the civil war and and in the aftermath. We've for dramatic purposes. Wanted to keep them separated for audience until we have this moment of contact. We have stanton saying to him. You know what's happening down south right now. There's a rebellion happening right now. And he's kind of alluding to what we get into in the next scene. Which is the knights of the ku klux klan. This is this is when we first here Of what that is in the next scene. It's a foreign idea for a modern to not think that the clan has always been around This is the first time that they've ever mentioned it or heard of it This is a new thing but we make reference to this in season one. I think john mercer langston says these these these so-called nights you know which are terrorizing the friedman You know this this. Violence started in the aftermath of the civil war very promptly and it continued all the way through the election of eighteen. Sixty eight and all the way through grants time in the white house and it's going to be a big cross to bear for grant moving forward and i would argue that. The fight against the klan is the hallmark of grant's presidency. It's the central conflict of it In many ways also keeping the country together and united his is part and parcel of that but That's that's sort of track that were laying for for grants Struggle while we're on this point. I wanted to take a quick aside. You mentioned that conversation and season one with langston talking about the things that are happening in the south one of the things that is happening in the south is the erection of the confederate statues which of course continued all the way through into the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties And there's a little a little current history parallel that. I wanted to eric to talk about because there were some things that happened. Just recently yes. Last last summer while The protests were happening and in black lives matter was was such a prominent conversation. There is a another push to get. The name changed of my my former high school robert e lee high school and so I went down there to to talk to the school board and Really amazing moment to be a part of and it was. It was very touching personally for me that steve came down there to to support me. I told him i was there and going to speak and he was like. Oh yeah what time that happening. I was like you know it's happening later this afternoon. All right i'll be there. And he drove all the way out to tyler texas to To be part of that and that was really also. I was really proud of you erik. I mean it you know. I know what it's like to grow up in a town in texas where you don't always Find commonality with. I don't know the prevailing sentiment. And i know that it must have been you know a way difficult for you but also it was also an easy decision in some ways to to stand up and speak out for what you felt was right but what what did you say what the outcome was so eric. What was the result. What is the what is the new name of that. School in tyler. Texas swayed them. Was that a lot of the student. Athletes of the high school decided they were not going to compete under the name. Robert e lee anymore and They ultimately ended up doing the right thing. Which is awesome They changed it to tyler. Legacy highschool so does nell no longer robert e lee high school so not for nothing The the town. Tyler is named after another accidental president. Not andrew johnson. But john tucker. And i think that you know. There's there are some problematic issues about john. Tyler's political life and personal life in his relationship to slavery. And i think what was interesting about my as an observer from tyler from fort worth but as an observer of that episode that what the critics are the opponents of changing robert e lee. Were saying if we change robert e lee. We probably have to change john tyler. To don't we. And i think i think a lot of the student athletes in black lives matter protesters. Certainly i felt this way. Everybody was like probably and the school board was very smart that they did change both so They won to be tyler high school rather than john tyler high school. It's it's a minute change. But it's it's at least removing his name from it It's it's obviously. The town is named tyler. texas so It's it would be a battle to change the entire name of the town which won't happen but but but it was. It was a complicated question and it was politically very complicated. And i think eric i mean honestly. I think you're to be commended. I mean it's it's a great thing that you did step forward and join your voice in that in that movement it lays said it was going to be part of but in the end it came down to those student. Athletes really stepping up. And what a courageous thing to do. Yeah i agree. I agree yeah. Lamb also just gives credence to to what langston said in the very beginning of you know if if we don't fix this here in in eighteen sixty six we are going to be dealing with this issue for the next hundred years and i think robbed what's interesting about season two and were you know because we're wrapping up episode three. It's i think it's worth saying is this is really the the substance the heart of what season to his about is this the struggle between the grant administration the clan and ultimately you know as we dramatizing. The scene between grants and johnson grant is deeply disturbed by what he sees happening in. Tennessee impeachments over johnson's been acquitted. But yet there's this is outbreak of violence It appears to be connected to the election of eighteen. Sixty eight which is right around the corner And that is one of the like shays. Rebellion was for washington. This is one of the motivators that ultimately leads grant his decision to to stand the republican candidate and to as he says finish. What mr lincoln started so absolutely in this scene that you have constructed again in our in our fictionalized narrative after talking to johnson and realizing that this is the fight. Now that is before him. He goes to stanton and Takes a box of cigars. Right yeah so yeah for for the listeners who were paying its and episode one Ely parker hands a note to stanton and basically in that node grant says he's willing to wager a box of cigars. The johnson won't make it to the end of his first term. And of course johnson did make it to the end of his first term and he wanted a second one and so grant brings this. We note israel. It's true that grant made that wager. we just don't know if he ever actually made good on it. So we dramatized him delivering this box. Garza symbol to say you're right. I was wrong about him. And i was wrong to think that you know law and order would save me with this guy I'm i'm willing to do it. I'm willing to put my name forward when the election. And hopefully i think put down the clan and it'll be to tie back to discussion about what we think of the clan today versus what the average american probably thought about it in the eighteen sixties. We'll get into a lot addition in later episodes but it's complicated the also. The question was grant victorious over. The clan is complicated because obviously the clan still exists. So the the quickest response is probably will know. Obviously he wasn't but in some ways he was And it's it's a really complicated dynamic that that we're going to explore i think In a pretty exciting way To lots more stories come thank you guys for taking this time to talk about episode. Three as we said we now move into episode four. We are done with flashbacks. We are in real time and moving forward. It is grant versus the clan as we move into episode four will listen to episode four and then check back with us and the inside the episode for episode four. When you're done with that steve. Eric thanks for joining us. Thanks rob rob be sure to follow us on twitter and facebook at eighteen sixty five podcast for more inside information and true history from the show. Also if you really love the show and you want to help us out. Please become a patron at patriotic dot com slash eighteen sixty five podcast members there get exclusive content early access ad. Free listening so much fun stuff as always. We're trying to find new ways to give back to our patriot community so become a member yourself. Patriots dot com slash eighteen. sixty five. Podcast thank you for listening. Eighteen sixty five is an airship production. This episode was hosted by me. Rob mccollum produced by eric. Chila theme music by lindsey graham. You sure to tune in for the next episode of inside the episode eighteen sixty five. Hey i'm mike corey the host of wandering show against the odds and our next season. 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A brief history of presidents visiting troops in combat
"Hi there I'm Washington Post reporter Lillian Cunningham stay tuned after the show to hear about my latest podcast moon rise it's the dark but true story of why we went to the moon and what we found there the full series is available now promise the next month as president elect he visited commanders and surveyed Chinese North Korean positions from spotter aircraft implications to confirming Eisenhower's belief that the war had become a stalemate Eisenhower brokered an armistice silence to evacuate winking was not happy he said I thought I was commander in chief and he very nearly got himself killed as Brown's zipped over his top hat and off he went Lincoln wanted to support the Union troops he wanted to see the situation with his own eyes team allied commander in Europe during World War Two Eisenhower made a bold campaign promise days before he won the nineteen fifty two presidential election ordinary request he wanted to go see the fighting nobody of course not this was a very good idea but Lincoln did Lincoln was not the first president to step foot on an American battlefield president James Madison was at the battle of Bladensburg during the war young officers shouted get down you fool. Lincoln Secretary of war Edwin Stanton was so worried about his boss that he ordered reflieffactor military political and psychological to be mobilized in speeding a just peace eisenhower made good on his the only civil war battle that took place in Washington the battle of Fort Stevens President Abraham Lincoln gotten his carriage one evening and made an extra eighteen twelve but Lincoln's visit is often cited by historians in recounting the importance of presidents visiting troops in or near war zones to better grasp conditions to reverse public doubts into signal to both US and enemy forces results according to historian Michael Beschloss and his new book presidents of war speedy and reliable air travel after the nine dressed in a thick parka. Eisenhower squatted on an ammunition crate and ate lunch shoulder to shoulder with soldiers provide lasting symbolic images of presidents as commanders in war military as well as all the requirements later that July and set after that we could not stand forever on a static front and continued to accept casualties without any visible photos of Eisenhower there were symbolically important showing him as a hands on leader but the visit had important policy choked up Johnson told his troops I could not begin to thank every man in Vietnam for what is doing the country took war efforts seriously veterans have split on the value of such visits with some suggesting that these so-called dog and pony show dot com slash retro pod Hi I'm Lillian Cunningham IOS obscure the realities of war and drain military resources to keep the president safe true or not these visits I'm too blunt negative public opinion Johnson stood in a jeep at Cameron Bay I shall go to Korea our said the conflict there was spinning out of Control and Eisenhower promised to review Thanks for listening special thanks to Alex Horton who reported the story for The Washington Post and for more forgotten stories from history visit Washington favorite PODCAST APP or at Washington Post Dot com slash moon rise you can binge the entire series available now commercial never let you down I'm Mike Rosen walled to address troops gathered around him while he wasn't in a direct line of fire beschloss says Johnson moved closer to the front than any other increasingly unpopular in the United States and around the World Johnson's trip extensively to support the troops morphed into a campaign eighteen fifties helped president set the standard for commander in chief visits to battlefields one of the most famous occurred in don't since Lincoln at Fort Stevens Johnson's visit for security reasons only lasted a couple hours chin up or political deals the Cold War nuclear arms race and even the history of science fiction to tell a new story about space. Listen on your the host of the Washington Post's presidential constitutional podcasts. We've just-released the finale for my latest series called Moon Rise Tober of one thousand nine hundred sixty six when president Lyndon B Johnson made a surprise visit to South Vietnam the war was becoming in three lovers I'm Mike Rosenfeld Retro Pod a show about the past rediscovered in eighteen sixty four during it reexamines the story you thought you knew about why we went to the Moon I dig into newly declassified documents and presidential records closed chest out we're going to get out of this yet Johnson
Barricade | 12
"Impeach stanton. You want to impeach the president for violating law. You've created expressly so that he would violate yes. I'll need to discuss this with my counterparts in the senate already. Have them a copy of the bill this morning. I have your support list bingham. If the senate will back us yes mr bingham. I have a moment alone with mr stanton certain gentlemen. It's never been done before. I'm aware in the history of this country. No president has ever been impeached ed. I'm aware maybe there's a reason for that. Aren't you concerned at all about the president. You're sitting here. Article two section four forgets the president shall be removed from office on impeachment don't why interest adjacent and conviction of treason bribery or other high crimes uh-huh and misdemeanors. I didn't set this precedent. The framers did so firing. You is a high crime and misdemeanor. It is congress says it is. Aren't you worried at all about the fallout of do you remember that bridge. The belmont company built over the ohio river. You're going to tell the story was it was a big project even bigger pile of money on the table from god's everyone in town and everyone except me i thought it was an ice along and it didn't take long for the local boatmen to discover the chimney tops of the larger ships were unable to pass under the bridge. People were angry needless to say the bridge company was supposed to build at a certain height but they they refuse to correct them. Stay or take responsibility. I owned onto both myself so i took up a suit against them but in order to win i had to show just cause for damages so i march down to the doctor ordered my steamer steamer and i ordered the captain to proceed down the river towards the bridge full steam ahead until iron collided with concrete and the bridge came tumbling down down my boat. I won the case lebel pont bridge company around the world and if you don't think crash the boat into the bridge and bring a whole goddamn thing down with me then you don't know with whom you're dealing and i won't stand in your way you've left out a very important part of that article the president the vice vice president and all civil officers of the united states including you if johnson's impeached for firing you'll be on trial as well if not an impeachment proceedings at least in the court of public opinion everything you've done will be out in the open for all to see and and for future generations to weigh in the balance be careful. You don't go down <music> in eighteen sixty. Five eighteen sixty five is sponsored by audible. Listening makes us smarter more connected people it makes us is better citizens. Better parents better leaders and there's no better place to start listening than audible for instance. If you wanna learn more about edwin stanton audible. Has you covered stanton. Lincoln's war secretary by walter star is a fascinating and deeply researched history biography of the man lincoln called his rock and indispensable indispensable partner of the sixteenth president. You can get all twenty hours and twenty six minutes of it. Free audible members get credit every month good for any audiobook in the store the regardless of price and unused credits roll over to the next month. If you didn't like your audiobook you can exchange it. No questions asked plus. Your books are yours to keep with audible. You can go back and we listen anytime. Even if you cancel your membership so start listening with a thirty day audible trial and your first all your book plus to audible the originals are free visit audible dot com slash eighteen sixty five or text eighteen sixty five to five hundred five hundred. That's an audible can to audible originals finals free with a thirty day trial audible dot com slash eighteen sixty five or text eighteen sixty five to the number five hundred five hundred eighteen sixty five is supported by you hi. I'm lindsey graham executive producer of eighteen sixty five. I'd like to ask you a favor if you're enjoying eighteen sixty five consider supporting it with a five dollar monthly pledge if you'll join us at eight hundred sixty five podcast dot com you'll get the entire original series series bendable right now as it appeared on stitcher premium last year completely ad free you'll also get early access to episodes of the new rewritten and rework series. That's the one you're listening to right now also add free and in addition to that supporters get transcripts annotated by the writers with more fascinating historical detail a free copy of the original score to eighteen sixty five and special bonus segments that dive deep into our characters history and motivations in their own words as read by the cast but i hope the best i became a supporter of the show is that you will be helping us create the next chapter in our audio storytelling. There are so many stories to tell from seventeen sixty five to two thousand thousands sixty five and your support is critical to our success so please go to eighteen sixty five podcast dot com and become a patron help us continue. You are work bringing history alive by going to eighteen sixty five podcast dot com mr president. This reconstruction bill is more than a shot across the bow a direct attack on your presidency. That's to say nothing of the tenure of office who in the hell is congress to tell me the president of the united states who can and cannot fire fire. It's no coincidence. These two bills passed on the same day mr president. What's that supposed to mean. Wells actually sir. I think mr stanton we the one dance that question well stanton mr president. I am outraged you are. I'm incensed. Sir i have cited what the radicals on many issues over the years but this bill this is so called tenure of office actors and atrocities here here. We'll your executive pen. Mr president president vetoed this disgrace to our democracy. Republicans still have a majority in the house and senate sur which makes my veto power as worthless as a pixel on us. Yes it's true you are entirely powerless to stop the will of the congress but you can send a clear message to the people these so called congressman might wish to trample on the sacred words forged by our founding fathers but by god andrew johnson willnot mystifying though i am agree with mr stanton issue veto mr president do it today with your permission sir. I'd be more than happy to draft the beadle myself. Sir get to then thank you. Mr president stands behind the reconstruction bill mr president the tenure of office act to sure you realize that mama didn't raise no fool. Oh wells is challenging. Sir daring you to fire stands as crazy as a bull at always has been if you take the bait sir. I know i know hope. Congress will yank the hook clear through my gaels. Mr president republicans ossified it the moderates and the radicals war over the soul of their party you firing wingstop lonely unite them against you if you do this for congress will move to impeach. I can't fire him. Not now. You'll right whales unfortunately mr president on the subject. I'd rather be wrong. You ever go noodling when you were a child noodling. When i was growing up we were so dirt poor we couldn't even afford a fishing fishing pole and a roll up hand legs wade out into the creek and snag those sons of bitches with our bare hands. She nude one. You can't just just reach into the water and grabbed. The fish won't work because catfish slippery. I understand the metaphor. You've been spending too much time around it with. Let me finish when a catfish senses danger. It will try to hide by baron itself in the mud. We don't need to make the first move. All we have to do is wait for stanton to dig a hole. He can't get himself out of love when he's good stuck snatch him <hes> galveston texas april twenty six to eighteen sixty seven to the honorable j w throckmorton governor of texas axis sir it closed fine statements signed by sixty loyal citizens parker and jack counties in your state petitioners affirm. The courts of justice is there are being used to protect civil rights violators whose hands are red with the blood of friedman indeed. The judge presiding over these counties is said to be a former rebel rebel general. These charges are false disprove them. If they are true. The remedy must be swift ereck selassie protect. The citizenry in person is an property from all attack. These let me know your action at the earliest moment and the honor to be sir your obedient servant general sheridan military governor governor of texas louisiana district. Well tell me mr langston. What action did the honorable governor throckmorton of texas take. He told general sheridan go to hell for god's sake state governments are shielding the rebels from prosecution. The secretary general sheridan believes the solution is more troops with respect to general sheridan. Troops are not enough. These are not random acts of violence by embittered southerners. These are coordinated attacks. I lost on the battlefield battlefield so they've moved the war to a new front this society of knights as they call themselves has spread to nearly every statement south their numbers are growing by the day eh. Their leadership remains elusive elusive mr standard hiding in plain sight. These men are not backwards confederate with a chip on their shoulder. Their former confederate officers officers plantation owners higher ups in the confederate government to find the leadership in texas. You need look no further than the governor's mentioned rock morton. If he'd had a member number himself he certainly working to achieve the same ends. Throckmorton refuses to acknowledge general sheridan's thirty he refuses to cooperate with the bureau and and he refuses to uphold the law was the name of that republican fellow in texas the when we ran against throckmorton and the governor's race mr p.'s dizzy a good man. I suppose i mean is do you find him. A suitable replacement for governor next to the honourable j w throckmorton of texas the devil himself as a suitable replacement. Mr p.'s lost stanton throckmorton beat him handily four to one that one do martial mcphail unfortunately that margin is too wide to challenge the the results of the election. We'll have to do this another way. You called sir remain congressman bingham. Now yes sir mr langston said word general sheridan erin. Tell them to hold strong in texas cavalry is going to do. I'm going to send mr throckmorton into early retirement and you want to ask the governor of texas. Yes well. No not only the governor nerve texas. There are others as a matter of fact had prepared a list of people. I'd like remove your review. This is a long list. Texas is a large state. This is only texas. Yes i thought we'd start there and work our way east mr stanton the war department does not have constitutional authority to intervene well not yet. That's why you're warrior. I want you to pass a law giving me the power to remove southern officials who refused to fall in line even if that could happen and believe me. That's a far cry from certain. We have a majority in both houses. What's the issue the issue mr stanton is the lawyer proposing is unconstitutional touch. Yes not a touch many many touch. You're right yes eventually. The law will be challenged will make its way to the supreme court. Sisal wants their those shriveled old. Jacksonian sonian democrats will overturn it but that process won't happen overnight. It'll take time enough time. I'll wager to remove from power any southern governor who doesn't toe the line in heaven my really entertaining this bingham. They are murder in friedman with impunity and these elected officials are protecting the murderers to have a conversation with senator something i i use better. Yes i require a yes. Yes thank you johnson is absolutely going to you now. Here's the hoping happy voting miss debenham in july nineteenth eighteen sixty seven congress has just passed another supplementary bill to the reconstruction act giving its military governors honors the power to remove and replace anyone holding a state or municipal office general thomas mr president the hell. Are you lorenzo uh-huh. Oh do you mind if i call you lorenzo. I serve at the pleasure of the president. No need to stand on ceremony. I want us to talk as men lorenzo enzo. Would you feed up have a drink with me. I never say no to drink. My cabinet doesn't much like to drink last summer when on dismissed most of lincoln's bunch should've made drink a necessary prerequisite for the job. You're aware cleaned house cabinet. Yes sir only. I don't know the precise reason. Disrespect justifiable cause my books that goes back before congress pashas law. There's this tenure of office act say that was pretty disrespectful and now they're telling me the war department can remove who've an elected official from office with a snap of a finger. I'd say that's pretty damn disrespectful to not to mention unconstitutional. You know oh who else is a teetotaler lorenzo. My war secretary matter-of-fact edwin stanton's the sober is one of the bun and the the most disrespectful in my experience. At least i'm decided i'm going to send stanton on a permanent vacation assuming coming your interested in the job of course why me <hes> tied drinking alone you already posted goes to general grant. He flatly refused the role grant as it turns out is no friend to my administration. That doesn't answer my question. You serve serve your country with honor and distinction for years and hounded stanton. Thank you shipped you off to nowhere mississippi during the war undignified task recruit negros to the fight. I'd say that's pretty damn disrespectful and now he's written offers a useless drunk devoid of all honor his word. I may have turned to the bottle in recent years. I may have ruined my name and my reputation tation but i remain a man of honor. If dueling remain the law of the land i would meet that snake edwin stanton on the bank of the river are at dawn and i assure you i would not aim for scott. You want to know why you lorenzo. That's why take back your on us. It's waiting for you and stanton's office at your pleasure mr president well. I'll drink to that only before the job's yours. I do have one last piece of official business in that sense. I gotta catch me catfish july thirtieth to the honorable governor throckmorton of texas dear sir you are hereby relieved of your duty as governor of the state of texas effective immediately from the office of the president secretary secretary stanton and his come to my attention that governor throckmorton has been forcibly removed from the state capital further. I have learned that mr p.'s has taken taken possession of the governor's mentioned lease instruct general sheridan to have his men remove. Mr p.'s immediately so that governor throckmorton may resume his duties ladies president johnson be advised. I have instructed general sheridan dispatch our men to the governor's mansion with instructions to protect governor piece. Your order is in direct violation of the third reconstruction act. You cannot use the military to subvert the will of the people quest denied mr stanton stanton public considerations of a high character constrain me to say that your resignation will be accepted at once mr johnson. I have received your note. My reply is as follows public. Considerations of a high character also constrain me to not resign in my office your humble servant edward. M stand mr mr bill. How do you do general renzo thomas. I'm surprised to see you up right. I was just telling mr bingham. I heard you died of drink in the woods and mississippi. You heard wrong in news. Sir this is something. I never thought i'd have the opportunity to say to you. You'll find our unfortunate. Mr bingham seems mister johnson. No longer requires my services services such a pity. I suppose congratulations are in order mr thomas assuming you're my replacement of course you ought to vacate your office immediately. You take possession of the war department. This afternoon will need some time to gather my personal belongings. Quick good day secretary terry. Thomas might not have a copy of the president's termination letter. I don't have a cop. Oh dear well that won't do. I require a copy for my records. I'd be happy to make myself and return the original suppose that's reasonable request where we'll find you mister secretary beg your pardon. I need to know where to to send my men to return the original standing at the national hotel. Thank you mister secretary for your courtesy kindness. I never received from you and call a meeting with the republican leadership. Get to work on the articles of impeachment straight away so that you do the worry standard. Be back in your office in no time i'm not leaving. My office must have been them. You know would a barricade myself inside what marshall mcphail he's telling me. You're not series. Yes mister. Secretary folks guards outside the board department. No one comes in or out without my permission. Yes they're taking on detail to the national hotel. Call on general thomas. Why are you sending an army detail because he's under arrest christ stent and tell me that's not loaded loaded drag that renzo thomas to the capital prism and keep them there until i say otherwise right away so this absolutely necessary. The game name is afoot mr benham rally the republicans who's not a moment to waste in eighteen. Sixty five is sponsored by bombed us. This is a true story. Even though i received a few pairs to evaluate free i went back and purchased with my own real money more bombast socks. I genuinely liked them and bought some more because i found i was rooting around in my sock drawer chore trying to find them to put on the morning. Why do i like them. Though we'll bomb this claims that the most comfortable socks in the history of feet and they may be right there made from super soft natural cotton and every pair comes with arch support a seamless toe and a cushion foot bed. That's comfy but not too thick. There's enough colors patterns lengths and styles to look look at the gym at the office out on the town and if you're like me and like to go sock list but don't really wanna go sokolow's bombed us no shows are perfect no slouching or sliding hiding keep in place and out of sight bomb or what feet daydream about and for every bombs purchase you make bombs. Don't appear to someone in need by your bombs at obama's dot com slash eighteen sixty five today and get twenty percents off your first purchase. That's b. o. M. b. a. s. dot com slash. Eighteen sixty five for twenty twenty percent off bombay dot com slash eighteen sixty five. I was born and raised in the south gentlemen like you in raleigh north carolina. Did you ever hear the one about raleigh a boy and his mom walking through a graveyard in tennessee when the a tombstone catches the boys i hit stone reads here lies a man from raleigh and a great man to confuse. The boy returns to his mama. Mama don't understand and his mom sues will hunt in. What don't you understand and the boys is. Why are there two bodies buried in this grave. President of it is a neptune himself come to greece models with his presence. May i have a moment mr president. I'm entertaining dinna gas mr welsh. Surely it can wait. It's quite urgent sir. Excuse me gentleman when i come back. I'll tell you why robert e lee doesn't doesn't like jokes. He generally doesn't find them very funny. In what can i do for your world. Thomas has been placed under arrest. I heard erred. Judge carter said his bail at five thousand dollars. I heard that to mr president. Do i still have your confidence wales. Am i still your most trusted adviser vice i of course you are and why do you refuse to heed my council. I told you fire years. I seem to recall that just last week. I spoke with republican leadership. I assure those congressman edward stands position was not in jeopardy. It's done is done well. You should have come to be i. You should have consulted me. Why our they knew what you're going to say. Well guess what wells i fired in. The sky hasn't fallen and the sun will still come up tomorrow morning mr president my friends. Tell me this has just just both in secret. They passed a resolution reaffirming their position that you don't have the authority to remove the more secretary they've given their tacit approval which means that house will booth to impeach thinking that might not be such a bad thing after all serve spoken to the attorney general and he agrees lincoln appointed stam them not me which means mars is not protected by the statutes of the busy so you did consult the attorney general eight personal. It's politics <hes> you just now. I'm starting to get the hang of this. What about general thomas what about him. He's already been posted. Please tell you use government funds when you got telling jokes to a table full rich southern as they scratch my back to the tune of five thousand dollars for general thomas. I gotta scratch. There's neuro neuron mr president newark ninety this and if you'll excuse me wells a table full of wealthy asses out there needs kissing mr president wait whereas general thomas now taken back. What's rightfully his mr stanton thomas secretary thomas to you. I do hope you will not frightened by my armed guards. Standing watch outside caution precludes hospitality. Forgive me mr trump's secretary thompson. What are you secretary of the capital prison. That's impressive after only a single night. Stay i will not be insulted by you though that's hardly your decision. Would you like a drink. I am here for business. I was under the impression you with the sort of man who never said no to drink as the secretary of war ad interim president of the united states to take charge of the lawful full secretary of war. I order you to remove yourself from this office. I want as the secretary of war ad interim. I shall not obey your order. Will you leave this office not new misdemeanor if you like but you will act as secretary of war at your own peril relinquish this office mr stanton you or i will take it by force at two wars secretaries predicament a a brief story. If you will i will not when i first took over the war department back and sixty to live found you insufferable and i remember the telling major record that i wanted to pick you up with a pair of tongs and dropping from the nearest window but in spite of my personal distaste for you. I've kept you on because you're or a good officer and i saw value in you. Is that why you ship me off to the mississippi valley. Yes recruiting. Black soldiers was my top priority. I needed a competent man on the ground mississippi. Mock me so you mocked yourself. You turn drunk out there. In the woods ignored your responsibility and drank yourself adore stupor believe i've had enough store and goodman turned trump they'd get sloppy and do foolish things like stealing from the government or chest and doing lackluster job of covering their tracks. You see mr thomas. One of the chief marks of an effective war secretary is the ability to keep meticulous records and i've kept a meticulous file on threatened me all you like. I have precedent on the president for long here. Are your options. Mr thomas deck my office at which point upbringing your story in every newspaper on this show the people of this country we really really are you mark mark and when you're done toasting. I'll make a difference announcement to the press how does second in command at the war. You're not leaving me much choice at all. Are you know i'm not new kids. You never say no to a drink to general thomas to his secretary of walk little chicken shit. He's a weak man mr president with a weak constitution. She was more suitable replacement. What about you. Hello a europe qualified as any man in washington. I must respectfully decline as well never took you yellow belly. I'm not afraid of and stanton's the sleep of the wom- bed on the floor of the capitol s._c. Mr president i do have a suggestion. The hell with your suggestion stanton can swear an affidavit arrest of war secretary than by god i can too. I want you to raise a judge. Let's give stanton the taste of his own medicine persson wise. I just gave you an order. I'm trying to help you serve. Only you would listen is worthless teats on the bowl. You wanna help. Here's there's a nickel. Go to the bar down the street and pay him to shave that mangy beard off your face. What's wrong with my beard. You're fired you would violate the tenure of office act twice why safa the entire goddamn government. If i so choose i end up president then act potential sir consider for a moment the actions actions of the arrest one of his own. He barricades himself inside the board apartment. He posts armed soldiers out front with orders to arrest anyone who tries to enter without initial. He is making a tyrant of himself. Mr president not make one of yourself to your thinking something. I can tell by the look on in your face. Congress has given stand a lot of rope with his tenure of office act mr president. I suggest you sit back relax with the stem to hang hang himself with mr benham house. The meeting productive republican leaders unanimously agree johnson's simpson's broken the law. He must be moderate republicans on board to to a point that supposed to mean everyone agrees. He should be impeached question. John is what for congressman stevens and a few of the radicals pushed for various high crimes but the moderates pushback conspiracy to violate the tenure of office act as as far as they're willing to go. We cared prosecute him on procedural crime alone mr bingham procedural i may be the only option we have. A man is among no no no. Oh no sit getting worse isn't it. It's not getting. I'm not interested in discussing my condition negro. Men and women are being murdered in the streets and johnson refuses to enforce the law he undermines congress. There's at every turn he disobeys the will of the people and he gives aid uncovered the enemy. The punishment should fit the crime crime. Would that be an article for treason will never make it to the house floor access. There's no evidence. The evidence is in his every word and action this. This is not a military tribunal stan. It's not a court of law either. This is a political process. If we live into an impeachment fight with only the tenure of office offers that we might as well raise the white flag and congratulate johnson on a second term futurama patrice and charged with no evidence to support it. You'll emboldened johnson power the democrats democrats and give the press to converse listen to you in the tribunal lost reputation make the same mistake again mr ben. I'm giving you my answer. Want me to present an article for trees into the house of representatives. Ah <music> uh secretary cotton over it was quite fun. What can i do for you. I have some information i feel might be used to you. Shut the door. I'm listening wing governments. Pursuing perjury charges against me years perjury an alleged to have committed new york. I heard the problem. I didn't commit perjury. I'm sorry mr konrad truly am. I wish there was something i could do to help. My hands are tied then on taivon and you'll being tried in the public courts or secretary of war. I have no authority to interfere. I don't wanna make a deal with you. Sir i want you to broker. Meaning denture with the republicans in congress has no authority over the course than i do understand than enlighten me mr canada. I want immunity in exchange for congressional testimony tomorrow against andrew johnson congressional testimony republicans guarantee me. I'll never spend a day in prison. I'll tell them everything. I know what the andrew johnson colluded with jefferson davis he conspired with john wilkes booth to assassinate president isn't in eighteen sixty five is an airship production starring jeremy schwartz as at least also featuring robert mcculloch shawn hannidy james tatum r bruce elliott william jackson harper eric roberts chris jerry and bryn created by stephen walters and eric art show written and directed by stephen walters executive producer lindsey graham ho executive producers eric chila robert mcculloch column and stephen walters. He's concerned signed by lindsey graham to find out more about eighteen sixty to eighteen sixty five podcast dot com we'll find us on facebook and twitter at eighteen sixty five podcast and if you're a fan of the show please consider supporting us become a patron at caitriona dot com splash eighteen sixty five podcast new episodes air week and look for special inside the episode interviews with the writers and producers of the series to find out more <music> out the real history behind eighteen sixty five <music>.