20 Episode results for "Edward snowden"

 Edward Snowden: life after leaking

Today in Focus

30:46 min | 11 months ago

Edward Snowden: life after leaking

"Today six years after Edward Snowden blew the whistle on mass surveillance by the US government a Guardian journalist at the center the story returns to speak to him and why are rape prosecutions at a ten year low and so are the debate okay from the first couple of days I met my kids are roughly the same age as the team. I thought why are you doing this. You've gone to jail for the rest of your life for the idea of Internet freedom and muscle valence so I don't do sorry I my name Ms and words Snowden Old W. d. e. n. So all the time I felt sorry for Roma thought me you're wasting your life ever since the simply forum and felt vaguely responsible you mccaskill is talking about a day in two thousand and thirteen eighteen when he along with them. Guardian columnist Glenn Greenwald an US filmmaker Laura Poitras met the man who would hand them probably the biggest story of the journalistic careers it was June and they had traveled to a fancy hotel in Hong Kong to meet US Whistle Blower Edward Edward Snowden the information he would provide would expose a massive political scandal that would trigger ripple effects still being felt today but it would also the main that snowden would be forced to flee ending up in exile in Moscow where he would be without his family without his career. I'm still in fear for his safety. I very much was the most powerful government in the world wants to go away. They didn't care whether I wanted to wait a prison. They didn't care care about whether I went away to the ground. They WANNA be gone and they wanted me no longer speaking the US was unable to silence him last week. You traveled to Russia for an interview to be with his former sauce exclusively filmed for the Guardian ahead of the publication of Snowden memoir permanent record from the Guardian. I'm initiative Astana Ana today in Focus Edward Snowden six years in exile in two two thousand thirteen. You're working in the Guardian's office and you suddenly get asked to go to Hong Kong with a couple of other journalists to meet someone who's claiming to be A. US spy got some extremely interesting information. What did you expect to find when you London Hong Kong thought well. The worst that can happen is a couple of days of tourists in Hong Kong and I was kind of skipped club. Oto So it was a huge surprise when Tombo Edward Snowden was who he claimed to be and he had the Dover the biggest cash of top secret documents and history of intelligence when the banks surprises you're going to get some grea disgruntled disillusioned expect somebody who's in there in the fifties sixties. A PASSOVER FOR PROMOTION MAY BE AN ALCOHOLIC DIS- fed up with life so Kim's shocked to see snowden. The fresh faced twenty nine year old looks. He's twenty the one whose heads tell me about that moment. I mean we just can you take me into the hotel. Describe it. Tell me how you feeling when you went up by when you met him when we turned up the told him you're snowden had been there for ten days and you skip to leave the room and and kiss he was snatched so the place was littered with the debris from countless room service meals towels line the floor and the room is a mess ace you skip the people eavesdropping sued pillows lined up against the door jamb and then there's once-off freaky moment only suddenly put this big rate who'd over his head it might be a camera in the room or Saith able to pick up his possible to Dover Elliott lingering moot and he looked at me and we thought this guy a fruitcake but he good reason for being paranoid. You can't come forward against the world's most powerful awful intelligence agencies and be completely free from risk because they're such powerful adversaries that no one can meaningfully oppose them what the document. Humi- showed is that the US government was spying on their own citizens. He hunted over a thumb drive. I'm says what's on Sunday sixty sixty thousand documents some of these documents run two thousand two thousand pages hats you fail never thought of like spikes. Galveston mm-hmm up until that point yes government had denied that it was engaged in any saw mass surveillance on systems does the NSA say routinely intercept American citizens emails now does the NSA intercept Americans Americans cell phone conversations now google searches now text messages now I'm Assan. Dot Com orders no bank records now what these talking shoot that not only was the US gathering information every citizen in the the US keeping these documents in the biscotti forever. We're not authorized to do it nor do we do. It did hugh now straightaway. How big a story it would be a didn't know authorities just lost a week or two and then I'll go into something else. I never imagined we still talk borough six years old. Okay you another guardian journalist. Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras the documentary filmmaker start going through this huge cache of documents documents that are going to have massive implications for the US government described the atmosphere in that hotel room was was excitement two levels one polly Klaas snowden voting this up by seeing dot com crashing in and see I would come. I'm gary or the tire local triads common sort as the mean pressure in me was going to get this right. I don't want to guard into look stupid if it turns out the complete hoax wchs and you'll saturate what sixty thousand documents and work out what your intro was going to be. It took me six months only read some of them in the stories are really hard to right now in Hong Kong to ignorance about who digital technical things got even though it was the the then suddenly it was entered you so world tour you know we saw disguise your operative from and kept it shot things familiar with a huddle and pray quickly. I was involved with wikileaks and that was easy because you State Department documents written in English with snowed documents attain the cool phumaphi condoms if their story which you pour out within days was about the US surveillance of its citizens what happened when you published us us in the first three wanting. Dan even goes splash in this so it came as a shock to me. Not only the splash on went zip. It just went all over the world disturbing report of unprecedented collection of phone data from millions of Americans five the federal government according to the British newspaper for The Guardian. The Obama administration is conducting a massive domestic surveillance program which were about the President says these programs keep America safe. They help us prevent terrorist attacks. We did the second one. There's an audience waiting for it became a crescendo the point where a student at video disclosing the floor and that video was just absolutely vital. My name's Ed Snowden. I'm twenty nine on years old. I'm no different from anybody else. I don't have special skills I'm just another guy who sits there day to day in the office watches what happening take what's happening and goes. This is something that's not our place to decide you'll within the tale of sting and was besieged just by journalists where in the world is Edward Snowden. This is the Mirror Hotel in Hong Kong. This is where Edward Snowden is believed to have been holed up until today miracle allowed him to make his escape and they went stay with some refugees in Hong Kong and then you realized he thought he could if I expedition from Hong Kong once realized it couldn't we hate it for Ecuador and they had to go through countries for the US couldn't get it could go vs Rilya. We're he went to fly more school Cuba Ecuador. We have some breaking news for you. NSA Whistle Blower Edward Snowden. It's on the move this morning. He is reportedly on a flight headed to Russia at this moment we are tracking the plan live which should the Moore school the US constantly possible for nearly three weeks. There's been a media frenzy around Edward. SNOWDEN journalists have been scouring Moscow air for the flight to sign a paper. Now believe is behind this door but we're not allow through after forty days. The Russians relented late Lhamo on the offer them temporary. Asylum is ended up in the best place it could be. There's nowhere else in the world really could be safe other than Russia. If have you gone to Latin America the of Gotten in Europe of hundreds of more to the Americans the Chinese made it clear news Hong Kong they didn't want him the US to them. A fever by constantly's passport hey of course had been an American spy. I mean with the Russian security services taking a close interest in did when he was there he was interrogated by some soms was from a new version of the KGB if Sp.. I in this instead Tom look if you help us. We'll help you. You'd say to them I'm not. I'm not going to do a deal with you. I give all the documents to the journalist. Don't have any anymore. Is it clear why he decided to out himself. He said he thought the story would have more credibility of people. People knew who who was behind it but also he'd been inside the National Security Agency when there there's always suspected leaks inside intelligence agencies own homes you get this huge witch hunt. I seen what the devastate me fake by hard on colleagues so he didn't want his colleagues subjected to it of Komo anyway because he'd been missing for a week the NSA already looking for the police had been to his home. He couldn't stay anonymous when he was talking to you about his wife. Lindsay Mel's who was his girlfriend when he decided to leak all that material to the Guardian I mean that must have been quite something to have left his girlfriend at the time. Did he tell you a bit about that and and how he felt that the time he he did think I hadn't realized up until that point. Ho central she was to his life. He said that the that he left other was probably the worst part of the whole and it probably the worst part of his life and he cried when he left he couldn't tell he was is leaving because I would have made a a an accessory so he just went he just went she wonders for those having in the fear and the please turn up because he's missing from work on the police's suspicious crisis girlfriend not know who he is and one policeman starts. Luke Bryan the flight and thinking his as she killed him. Is there a body hidden here so it was a hard time for the first she knows but what snowden did was the moment as everybody else. Eventually Lindsay is able to go to Moscow and the couple reunited in his interview last weekend you and ask how reunion went to the mall school when you said that your Greece for slopped doc fees I mean what would you do. You're married. If you ran out on your wife. She sees you on the news news. You're now wanted and can't come home again and then months later you see her. Would you expect uh she so much more than I'll ever deserve. A piece says she'll up them and just as importantly she thought that we'd done it was right and did he become frustrated by the way the media portrayed her the two things that really upset them one her harassment by the FBI. I just as equally Baden has is heart treatment by the media off his beautiful girlfriend the sacrifice what might you know. I was just looking on twitter and that's a lot of the viewers were saying he gave that offer gave up a pole dancer really what they saw it. She'd been a pole dancing instructor things their videos on Youtube Kubat doing performances and they're like Oh. She must be a stripper because that's that's the reduce women to these sexualize objects this sort of sporting role. They didn't look at her complexity. They didn't look at the fact that she's a tiger for. They didn't look at the fact that she's a poet they didn't look at the the fact that she's a political being whose politics in fact shaped my own. When did he realize that Russia was going to be a time for the foreseeable future he he he didn't he was brought up in the American intelligence community for Russia's senior security enemy. Is Great Fortress of Communism threats. US So he's released from the airport and suddenly is in Moscow it doesn't speak Russian and the really nervous that the US wants to shot a mop partake retribution 'cause sponsored response to the US intelligence have consent this. This is most damage that anyone has done. I was terrified of this place. Because of course they were a uh the great fortress of the enemy. CIA agent looks at Russia and it was never my plan to be here and a lot of people in America felt he was a a traitor. There was a lot of criticism and a lot of suspicion about the fact that he ended up in. Russia is a polarizing figure. I think the cottons polls also believe him as a philly equal divide between the Americans think he's three figures have called him a traitor including most recently former Vice President Cheney. I think he's a traitor raider. I think he is committed crimes in fact by metal. I think he's a hero for repealing the skill must have hundreds of demonstrators marched on Capitol Hill today protesting. NSA surveillance the whistleblowers and cheering a fresh message from their hero in Moscow fugitive fugitive ex NSA contractor Edward Snowden at that time. It was very difficult for you to I mean the Guardian was lauded for its coverage by some but came under a hell of a a lot of pressure. David Cameron said that we were harming the fight against terrorism and my five Director General Andrew Parker who's very critical I mean did you have moments. swaggie really felt that they have been a mistake. All where you worried about what you've done those New York rather than London remember or one D coming into office in New York and been told that the Senate and to close the gap in Metha- specs stream the the same peasant say extreme said the yeah and they took all the computers and the destroy them in the garden basement not Lofton uh-huh. This job bruce through destroyed by people here at the Guardian because the editor at the time refused to hand over your yeah it was destroyed under the gaze of two officials from the cue which is a British equivalent of the National National Security Agency is responsible for all the interception of communications are in the World Samaritan that it was the prime minister who instructed Tate Britain's most senior civil servant to tell the Guardian newspaper destroy a computer which help files from the whistle blower Edward Snowden the ceremony that took place in your basement. When the secret ceremony you will just broke hard disks league laptops is that right everyone wanted to break up smash computer thing Plato which had other cookies at the snowden files. ABC's agreed to take an angle grinder to the computer while the intelligence agents watched it. You've kept in touch with snowden over the years. He must have been pretty nervous in two thousand listen in sixteen with the election of Donald Trump. There was a suggestion that he would have a warmer relationship with Putin. Did he fair that at that point things could change for Dan. I spoke to him at the time of trump became president about whether he was worried that Putin may hunt oversaw goodwill gesture towards the US. Yes you know he's much more relaxed knew he thinks I saw a threat receded the US imposed sanctions on Russia and relations nations of deteriorated be also thinks that he's quite a law for propaganda value to Russia Russia. Can Tom Ruins look okay. You're lecturing awesome human rights but giving sanctuary talk whistle blower summed expose the scale of muscle villains and it's now six years since the story broke. I'm really interested in your relationship with Edward Snowden. Do you like oh I can. I do like them. The relationship has definitely evolved. He's been generous and he says that he feels that the Guardian treated she to them well that we'd be honest. Reporting the Hughes fearful that you'd handover all the documents we see thanks very much but look at them and and then think too hot to handle a not publish them. Why did you go and see Edward Snowden last weekend slowdowns memoirs Komo this week Suta Mark that he asked me if I went to school to Moscow to do an interview. He said he was only do one televised interview and do you do the Dan I flew to Moscow with a garden filmmaker Lawrence top him and we may Snowden flat near the Center of Oh school. He was just on meted open. Talk freely about things like relationship who come to the decision to become up with so blower and about daily life in Russia. What is his life flight now. He's got a reasonable life. These free to wander around his is life has been used in America was one produce hoppy sitting at the Computer Walton League into the night so fundamentally life isn't any different as long as I've been sort of a live a real thinking breathing being you know from adolescence onward. My life has been mediated by screaming so when you ask about my daily. Yeah I go out. I go to restaurants friends. Come to visit. I have great conversations but it an indoor cat and that's by choice. How does he make a living the mean we he ends money is he does a lot of talk to students. America are a group of academics in Germany were over. How does he respond to people in the US. Maybe even in in the U. K. He still saw him as a traitor. He may even have ties to the Russian government bullet points when he was in Hong Kong said he was a Chinese spy and then anyway anyway Russia's suddenly he's a Russian spy with abrasion. Yes intelligence services of say he's not a spy. The acknowledged the heat that the acknowledged for what was him a matter of principle. Did it really make a difference. They're still massive surveillance getting on from the US from the UK from other countries. You're absolutely right. In fact things have gotten worse. The technology into a thirteen was fantastic but no it's not just the government but the government and alliance with the Internet giants the new potentially in the morning the Novi of having t the CPT meals colds. Do you think especially after you're involved in the story I know he was under under surveillance it immediately after so hassled and watch listen stop the airport so I happened to be fair to the Americans. Those Los Hustle influence affluent nip never said boo to me. The British government took a different attitude and everytime toppling those these every time I went through an airport. Stop and take take mistaken laws. He thinks is great is left of the world through this but the only way you can change this as maliciously of change. There's no it doesn't seem to be much appetite for neatness. You did not enough myself. You need this a huge worldwide muscle opposition protests new way you get with the over climate. Change your no vast not happening. GET STOLEN says look. I'm the answer. All it did was tell the world about it was up to the world respond when our political systems are being slanted to who deny us influence when our economic systems are being shaped to prevent us from having an equal opportunity to benefit from the production that has been created. We need people to recognize. The problems understand these problems and then to be willing to give something up to that problem. This is what we're struggling with on climate what we're starting with on so many fronts yes people can believe the mass surveillance is wrong. Yes people can believe that. Climate change is an enormous threat facing the future of the country but of the plant claimed but it's not enough to believe in something. You have to be ready to stand for something if you want it to change. He paid a huge price for telling the world about it. Do you think having met him a few times since then including just last weekend that he's ever had moments of regret. It must be hard. You know when you separated your family an imagine the life gave up. He's living in Hawaii. I think thing is getting one hundred twenty thousand dollars a year was high up in the NFC and through the whole lot up because of a single principle he he believed that the security services were abusing the constitution. We believe in the privacy. They're engaged muscle villains. Does it for you you you went to Hong Kong. You wrote this story with other colleagues. You broke one of the biggest stories that the world is known did going back last weekend and saying that he found acceptance and found some sort of happiness. Make you feel a bit better about the process that you've gone through. The short answer is yes. It was terrific when we got together. He was luffing law. He was comfortable and I think he's a piece no that you certainly didn't happen tweet thirteen. Thank you very very much that was UN mccaskill you can read and watch his interview at the Guardian Dot Com Edward Snowden Memoir Permanent Record is out tomorrow coming up new data reveals that people who report a rape in England and Wales have less chance of seeing the perpetrator convicted in court than they did ten years ago now figures released by the Crown Prosecution Service last week showed convictions for rape have fallen to their lowest levels in more than a decade despite a rise in reported rape the Guardians Keila Mba alongside her colleague Alexander under topping have been covering this story in the latest year. There were more than fifty eight thousand Rape Crimes James recorded by the place and that figure is more than doubled in the past six years so there's a huge rise in the number of mostly women and children coming forward to report rape there couple of reasons why this might be happening. One of them is that the police has changed its recording method switch might be the case that we have better figures but also quite a few people are coming forward when there are high profile historical cases such as Jimmy Savile at the same time there seems to be a serious issue within the criminal justice system and charging prosecuting and convicting rape. You've got so many more people coming forward and fewer people being sent to the Cross accused service and fear of those cases making it it through to court and seeing a conviction rape is an incredibly difficult crime to prosecute because it essentially comes down onto consent. It's often kind of a he said she said scenario the challenge at the moment as well as that. There's a huge huge increase in the amount of evidence. That's used to build cases and this is what people are talking about. When there's a discussion around disclosure this digital disclosure which is your phone your laptop and then there's also paper records documents such as your mental health records and he counseling noth an order for a case to go ahead. What we're being told is that rape complainants must agree to fo this closure so if there's this huge increase crease in cases and there's this huge increase in evidence that the police have to go through in order to get a case through to the CPS to get the CPS to even take a case then then that goes some way to explaining why there has been such a drop in referrals from the police since two thousand fourteen the CPS Ni- prosecuting fewer cases and bear with me because it's detailed but it's important so the decision to prosecute fewer cases has dropped at almost double the rate the police referrals have declined so putting all this focus on the police is quite convenient but is not the full picture so what has changed essentially we don't know the CPS is adamant that there has not been a policy change however last year when Alexandra topping and I wrote a bite and the treatment of rape within the Criminal Justice System Alexandra had a story story that looked at a training course that took place within the CPS where prosecutors were told to take the week cases out of the system? Take the cases that a jury might not typically think of as a typical rape or where a jury might think is she. Possibly what was she wearing was she drinking. Is there something a bite the complainant that makes them less reliable and this disclosure comes in because this is where they look at people's mental the health records so at the moment if less people proportionally and in real terms are seeing their cases brought through to being charged reached prosecuted and convicted the real concern is that it will cause an erosion of confidence people might question is it worth three four years of my life where I will have to hand over my phone have to hand over a lot of personal documents and then stand in the court if I'm lucky essentially because you are in the minority you get into a courtroom but Stan Court and be cross examined on what was probably a very very traumatic event and that is a question that the CPS and the police and the judiciary really need to take a close look at because this should be a bite encouraging people to come forward. We will never understand rape until more people come forward to report it and talk about it. That was Keila. Mba who is editor of the Guardian data projects checks team do followed that excellent work on the reporting of Kaelin and Alexander topping on the website. That's it for today my thanks to you and mccaskill. Edward Snowden Keelan bar and Alexandra topping. This episode was produced by Chika as and Gary Marshall Sound Design was by Axel Kukuchi the executive producers on Echo Jackson. I'm Phil may not. We'll be back tomorrow

Edward Edward Snowden US Russia Hong Kong The Guardian Moscow rape America snowden Ed Snowden Edward Snowden Keelan Glenn Greenwald Edward Snowden London Hong Kong mccaskill Laura Poitras Dan Donald Trump Tom Ruins Lindsay Mel
Edward Snowden

Fresh Air

48:39 min | 11 months ago

Edward Snowden

"Support for fresh air and the following message come from rocket mortgage by quicken loans with award-winning service throughout the home buying process at rocket mortgage dot com slash fresh air equal equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states and MLS consumeraccess dot org number thirty thirty from whyy in Philadelphia. I'm terry gross with breath fresh air today Edward Snowden in two thousand thirteen the former contractor for the National Security Agency leaked documents to journalists revealing the the US government's sweeping domestic surveillance program at and two stores phone records now for people in the United States going all the way back to nineteen eighty-seven if you've got kids or you yourself or born after nineteen eighty-seven they have every phone call to ever made snowden was an expert hacker as a preteen. When the access confidential documents from the Los Alamos nuclear lab he left a message alerting them to the problem he discovered snowden now lives in Russia after being denied asylum by over twenty countries we'll talk about his career in US intelligence becoming a whistle blower and what could bring him back to the United States. He's written a new memoir no more support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer family foundation supporting. WHYY's fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and and encouraging meaningful conversation to privacy advocates our guest Edward Snowden is a hero a whistle blower who exposed abuses by government intelligence intelligence agencies to others. He's a traitor who exposed national security secrets. SNOWDEN WASN'T IT systems expert working under contract for the the National Security Agency in twenty thirteen when he provided three journalists with thousands of top secret documents about US intelligence agencies surveillance of American citizens the revelations made snowden a wanted man accused of violating the espionage act they also led to changes in the laws and standards entered governing US intelligence agencies and the practices of US technology companies which now encrypt much of their web traffic for security snowden has lived live for the past six years in Russia out of reach of American law. He's written a new memoir about his life and experiences in the intelligence community. It's called Permanent Senate record. SNOWDEN spoke to fresh air's. Dave Davies via an Internet connection from snowden apartment in Moscow will Edward Snowden. Welcome to fresh air. I want to begin with the suspicion that some have that you are. A tool of the Russian government. Were collaborating with Russia. I I know that you ended up in Russia stranded at the airport because you had released these documents to journalists in Hong Kong and had booked a flight flight to Kito but after the first leg in Moscow your passport was invalidated by the US State Department so he got stuck in Moscow. You met a Russian intelligence is operatives. You believe at the airport that day in two thousand thirteen. What was the conversation like you have to remember that I worked for the Central Intelligence Agency? I'm very skeptical because of every intelligence service at this point in my life. I've just worked with journalists to reveal mass surveillance up. Now I know again having been trained ended the CIA through customs are what an interdiction at passport control looks like very much what to expect if anybody is up to no good and so the main thing is to survive getting through Russia on route then to Cuba Venezuela and onto Ecuador you have to travel through non on extradition countries build the kind of Airbridge to get one destination to the other from Hong Kong because every direct flight from Hong Kong I'm to Ecuador goes over. US airspace right so they can bring you down over California which is a very problematic thing to be vulnerable to for a person in my position so what I wasn't expecting was that the United States government itself as you said would cancel my passport so I'm stopped at at passport control and there's this you know the standard passport officer and when I go through the line. He takes a little bit too long. He picks phony makes call and I realize it's longer than everybody else and suddenly he looks at me. Just says did his problem with passport. Come with and I'm lead very quickly into this business lounge. which this very much not standard normally you'd be taken off to the security area and go in and it's a room full of Russian? Guys in business suits an unmistakably. There's the old guy he's in charge and he begins to Mak- what the CIA would call cold pitch now. This is where you have no history but they try to just say do you. You want to cooperate with us now. This is a very unusual situation being foreign intelligence officer because these kind of pitches requests requests for cooperation or almost always made clandestinely. They're made in private where they can be denied in. The first thing I'm thinking about because every alarm bell in my head is ringing is are they recording this are they using this to try to blackmail meet coerce me so immediately. I go look I worked for the CIA okay. I know what this is. I know what this how this is supposed to go. This is not going to be that kind of conversation. I'm not going to cooperate. I don't have any documentation with me and this is something that publicly is not very well understood but I destroyed my access to the archive. I had no material with me before before I left Hong Kong because I knew I was going to go have to go through this complex multi jurisdictional route and so this was the moment where they tried and he was he. He was basically saying look. Is there anything you can do. Is there any small piece of information anything you share because life is going to be very difficult record for person in your situation. If you don't have friends no thanks great but I'm not interested. I'll be fine on my own and then they get up and they say I hope you won't regret your decision. A little bit of a sinister moment and then they walk out so you declined there the the Russian intelligence request to cooperate then you got stuck in the airport for forty days because you didn't have a passport sport. They eventually grant temporary asylum right. That's correct and I actually just to to drill in there a little bit. you've said something very important which was that. I was trapped apt airport for forty days again for those people who might be a little bit skeptical of me if I had cooperated with the Russian government right. If you think I'm a Russian spy. I would have been in that airport for five minutes before they drove me out in a limo you know to the palace we're reliving the rest of my days before they throw the parade aid where they call me a hero of Russia instead. I was trapped in this airport for forty days. Where instead of saying you know Russia. Please let me in I applied for some in twenty seven different countries around the world places like Germany France Norway that I thought the US government and the American public would be much more comfortable with me being there and yet we saw something extraordinary happened. Just just one thing which is that the. US Government worked quite hard to make sure I didn't leave Russia to the point that they actually grounded the presidential aircraft of the President of Bolivia which is like grounding Air Force One. It's something that's really unprecedented. Diplomatic Mattock history and it's very much an open question today. Why did the US government worked so hard to keep me in Russia. We don't have a clear answer. We never have have that until more people in the Obama administration start writing memoirs but it's either they panicked when they realized this would be an evergreen political attack where they could just use guilt oh by association people's suspicion of the Russian government to try to taint me by proxy you say in the book that you applied for asylum to believe twenty seven countries was Russia one of them at the very end yes. There's a sort of a circumstantial case of suspicion right. I mean sense. This happened in two thousand thirteen. We've seen you know the Russian interference in the US election. It's collaboration according to the Muller report with wikileaks and getting stolen emails to affect the election and I think there's just a general belief that in this authoritarian state Edward snowden wouldn't be able to live for six years unless he were useful all to the Russian government. What's the general answer to that. I think this is for a lot of people who have sort of a a Hollywood understanding of how international affairs and intelligence it's works but the reality is even the case of as you said electoral interference in the case of wikileaks the Muller report the United States government itself never alleges that for example wikileaks even knew that they were talking to Russian intelligence wikileaks entire system is designed so they don't know who submitting documents and even even granting that they came from Russian intelligence that that was in fact the case every newspaper in the world thought were newsworthy stories of the New York Times The Washington Post. Everybody was reporting on this and when you look beyond the sort of the standard examples that we look at in case of electoral interference and we look look toward my case there is that question if he's not cooperating with the Russian government. Why would he be allowed to stay and I think the answer answer. Here's actually quite obvious. Russia doesn't need to do anything or rather the Russian government doesn't need to do anything to look good in this circumstance dance it shows that they have an independent foreign policy to their public because I applied to all these other countries in Europe or silent and all of their governments unfortunately could be threatened to revoke their expressions of support and this happened. This is a long well reported campaign where every time a country started into lean towards letting me in it would be either the secretary of state or the vice president of the United States that would call their foreign ministry and say look if you let this guy and we're going to retaliate and Russians very much consider themselves to be a European country so if the rest of Europe is afraid to do something and Russia is not afraid to do something that that makes Russians feel good and remember we did this in verse so Russia and the Soviet Union for the last fifty years so of course if we have an example or an instance where the whole world sees basically the United States government is not living up to its values. The Russian government is going to be very eager just underline that that's all they need do receive any financial support from the Russian government. No no this is. I'm one of the things that again is a common misconception. People sort of think about my life. They think I'm living in a bunker. There's Russian guards you. You know the the Russian government and I have any contact whatsoever. They're paying me now. I have my own apartment. I have my own income. I live a fully independent life. I have never and will never accept money your housing or any other assistance from the Russian government you didn't exactly have a typical adolescence you ended up spending nights on the computer school not of great interest to you you tell the story of looking being at the website of the Los Alamos National Laboratory into the did all this nuclear research and discovering that anybody with little understanding of Computers Directory Systems uh-huh could get internal memos. You looked at confidential memos that were just available. You call the general number the lab and left a message and said this is a problem you. You've actually got a call back. Tell us about that so my mother gets a little bit of a rude awakening because she's making dinner and I'm sitting in the living room on this computer and she picks up the phone says Yes yes he's here and she turns and looks at me and as I see her hearing the other side of the call all that I can't hear her face just gets Pale and she looks at me her eyes grow wide and she covers the receiver and she says like shoot tell and when I get up out of my chair and pick up the phone and this this man says I'm from Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratory these are the sweetest words anyone have told me in the moment because I'm like. Oh thank God because I had left that message because I had called because I hadn't really done anything wrong. I had simply been curious as a boy scout. I called this facility and said Hey. There's something broken on your website. You should do something about that and my mother did not punish me for this in fact she was very proud of the fact that I told them they had a weakness in their website and Los Alamos for all things once once they realized I was a child. I think they'd been expecting someone older. They said when I turned eighteen I should give them a call. You wanted to use your skills. Your skills sales were in the area of computers and you'll get your way into the intelligence. Find your way into the intelligence community critics belittle you as saying you were just a private contractor. You did work as actually a C. I A. Employees for a period of time but you worked for a lot of private contractors working for the NSA and the CIA Oh yeah you want to just explain the role of private contractors in the intelligence community there are congressionally mandated limits on the head count for executive agencies such as the NSA such as the CIA and so no matter how much money they get in their budget. We all know it goes up year after year after year no matter what they have to work very hard to get additional headcount to hire more people so what these intelligence agencies and really the defense industry in general came up with was if they can just shakedown congress for a little bit more money each year they can actually give this money to private companies defense contractors as we now know them which can then send their personnel who on paper will work for a Dell or Lockheed Martin or a Booz Allen Hamilton on paper they worked for a private company but in reality they go into NSA headquarters the CIA headquarters and so the reality is day. People don't realize it but the work of government the work of intelligence is as frequently performed by employees of private companies as it is performed by military career government personnel. You had a lot of jobs in the intelligence community you were actually a CIA officer in Geneva for Awhile you ended up in Tokyo after that and then Hawaii and you write that the material that you distributed to journalists ultimately documented an array of abuses abuses so diverse that nobody was ever in a position to know all of them took a really to found out even a fraction you had to go looking and what set you looking was an assignment to do a presentation about China. You want to explain this so yeah. I'm invited to give a presentation presentation about how China is hacking the United States Intelligence Services Defense Contractors anything that we have available in the network which I know a a little bit about but not not that much about because they have the person who's supposed to be giving the presentation drop out so I go looking. I use my network access to pull all the slide decks all of the presentation all the training. That's previously been given. I pull all of the recent reporting on what's having worked late into the night. I'm I'm seeing what exactly is it that China is doing. What are their capabilities. Are they hacking. Are they doing domestic surveillance or they doing international surveillance what what is occurring and I'm just shocked by the extent of their capabilities. I'm appalled by the aggression with which they use them but also in a strange strange way surprised by the openness with which they use them. They're not hiding it. They're just open and they're saying yeah. We're doing this yeah. You know we're hacking. What are you going to do about it and I think this is a distinction. I think yes the NSA spying of course they're spying but we're only spying overseas. We're not spying on our guys at home. We wouldn't do that. We have firewalls. We have trip wires for people to hit but surely these are only affecting terrorists because we're not like China but this plants plants the first seeds of doubt where I see if the capability is there perhaps somewhere hidden deep even inside the United States government the appetite for how they can I used these capabilities remains the same right so you explore further and what do you discover about what the NSA is actually actually doing so over the final years of my career I see that we have the same capabilities as the Chinese government and we are applying them domestic just as they are we have an internal strategy at the NSA which was never publicly avowed but it was all over their top secret internal MM slides that said the aspiration was to collect all what this means was. They were not just collecting. Intercepting communications from criminals spies is terrorists. People have intelligence value. They were collecting on everyone everywhere all the time just in case because you never know what's going to be interesting and if you miss it when it's passing by you you might not get another chance and so what happened was every time we wrote an email every time you type something into that. Google search box every time that your phone would you send a text text message. You made a phone call. Increasingly the United States government without giving the public vote. We weren't allowed to know this as a public but in secret the boundaries of the fourth amendment were being changed. This was without even the vast majority of members of Congress knowing about it and this is when I start to think about Maybe we need to know about this. Maybe if Congress knew about this maybe if the courts knew about this we would not have the same policies as the Chinese government right so but to be clear about what you discovered you're talking about bulk collection of all of these electronic communications which are then kept for how long and aware I mean. How do they have the capacity for this so this is a great question. What we're describing largely. Here is me discovering something called the the Stellar Wind Program Classified Fight Inspector General Report into Bush your warrantless wiretapping program and what came out of it turns out it wasn't just about phones it was as you say Internet communications and this is the core differences not phone or Internet. It's targeted versus untargeted historically. The United States intelligence community has only been performing rain and only been authorized to perform targeted surveillance. You look at a bad guy. You tap their communications. You intercept those communications. You put that in the database you story searcher you do whatever you want right right well so in many cases yes particularly for use in the criminal justice system but now they've automated and expanded the system so it's not targeted. It's dragnet that hits everyone everywhere in this is only happening because for the first time it's technically possible it's easy it's it's cheap and because they've secretly co-opted either throw coercion or seduction the major internet giants. Microsoft Apple Google Google facebook into sharing their information with the US intelligence community sometimes through a process of secret court orders everything is available to them and they try to store for as long as they can because they don't know when it's going to be used a full and so as technology progresses this distance which store it becomes close to forever one one of the NFL as close partners at and T. The Telecommunications Company stores phone records now for people in the United States going all the way back to nineteen Haiti seven. If you've got kids where you yourself or born after nineteen eighty-seven they have every phone call ever made the keep the records of your movements of your cell phone basically what cell phone tower you're connected to that changes us. Go driving as you move throughout the world. They store the movements for everyone on their network. They can going back to two thousand eight and we expect these to grow eventually you. Our entire lives will be in this ever-growing impermanent record of human activity. We're listening to the interview fresh air as Dave Davies recorded with Edward Snowden. He's written a new memoir called permanent record after a break we'll talk about why snowden decided to go to journalists with classified documents about government surveillance and what conditions he imposed on their use of the material and how it's the circumstances under which he would return to the US to face charges that he violated the espionage act. I'm Terry Gross and this is this is fresh air support for NPR and the following message come from the real real the leading reseller of authenticated luxury items shop luxury clothing living accessories and fine art at unreal prices from your favorite designers like Louis Vuitton Gucci Cartier and hundreds more and the real real authenticates hates each item to ensure its guaranteed authentic shop in store on the APP or at the real real dot Com and receive twenty percent off select items with Promo Code Real Real. Let's get back to the interview fresh. Air's Dave Davies recorded with Edward Snowden a former. It systems manager who worked under contract for the national security the agency in two thousand thirteen he gave three journalists access to thousands of classified documents describing US intelligence agencies surveillance of American can citizens snowden spoke today through an Internet connection from his apartment in Moscow a year a guy who believed end the US intelligence services. You are the son of two career government servants. When you discover this broad surveillance what what impact does it have on emotionally. It was a severe relation because think about it and you know people look let me now and they think I'm this crazy. I am this extremist whatever some people have a misconception that guy he set out to burn down the NSA but that's not what this this was about in many ways twenty thirteen wasn't about surveillance at all what it was that was a violation of the constitution what was about democracy and government. I had signed lined up to help my country and my very first day entering into duty for the CIA. I was required to pledge an oath of service now. A lot of people confused. I think there's an oath of secrecy but this is important understand. There's a secrecy agreement. This is a civil agreement with the government. A nondisclosure agreement uncalled standard form three twelve very exciting that says you won't talk to journalists. You won't write books. I have done but a the when you give this of service. It's something very different. It's a pledge of allegiance not to the agency not to a government not the president but to support support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic and so when I realized we have been violating in secret the fourth amendment of the Constitution for the better part of a decade and the rate of violations increasing the scope of the violations increasing with every day we are committing Finland. He's in the United States at under a direct mandate from the White House billions of times a day honestly I fell into depression and this leads to a period where I resigned from what would be considered direct mission related related work out in Japan and the foreign field as we call it and I returned to a purely corporate position for Dell as a as a sales official don't let CIA headquarters before you actually go through the revelations of this material you described going to Fort Meade the NSA's essays headquarters and you see analysts using a tool that allows them to exploit the fruits of all this mass surveillance. It's a tool called X. Key Key score. Would it allow these guys to do okay so you to do so when you think about all of these intelligence programs you've heard of right. They've got your email. I got your Internet communications. They've got your phone calls but for everybody everywhere. Obviously this isn't just a straight stream. People are reading. Is it comes in because it would take more hours in the day. Hey thank you know any government has people go through so what they actually do is they just dump this into gigantic data centers like they've built in. BLUFF DALE UTAH and other smaller couvert ones around the world so they don't have to move data around so they construct what's called a distributed query system you can think of this like Google for spies and what it does anywhere in the world that we've collected information every were in. Sep Intercepting Communications. Now we have have our own little search engine. It's Google box that little prompt that you can access from your desk wherever you are just an NSA NSA internal website and you can type in anybody's phone number anybody's email address any computers Internet address and the anywhere on the Internet one of our sensors collected a communication it will look through instantly everything that it has and it will send just the results back to that employee so you can spy on anyone in the world from anywhere in the world as long as you have access to this network work in this tool so if you had the clearance you pick a name you get. Their phone calls their web searches. What so I'm working with the Internet side of it we have people who work with telephony data which is largely phone calls and S.'s but your Internet data eight is everything everything largely that transit the global communication network if you send it over satellite hop we have what are called foreign set foreign satellite sites sites all over the world that are just listening to the sky. If you're sending it to a cell phone tower well we hack those all over the world to the best of our ability. If you send it over a a land line right you're fiber optic cable at your home and that goes to your Internet service provider while your Internet service provider probably cooperates with the NSA through the FBI and this being replicated again and again and again throughout the country and across the world. It's not everywhere but it's closed just everywhere as we can get and this means. It's basically every communication that can be intercepted. that can be stored award can be processed at can be decrypted. We can search and we can read. You Sat at one of these terminals and had access to this. Can you describe looking at the material of a professor in Indonesia right yes so this is an academic He is just some kind of engineer. I believe he's applying for either a position or a period of study at a university in Iran and the US government for whatever reason has an interest in this particular university. We don't spy on every university but we spy on interestingly a lot of them which would surprise people but is. Iran so people go okay. You know maybe there's some intelligence value. Maybe this guy's a terrorist and what struck me here. Was that normally when we do a deep dive and we look into someone it's because they're up to no good it's because they're associated with terrorism. this gentleman affect was not he's applying to university but he's caught up in the dragnet and so they have his university admissions application they have pictures of his passport and then. I see something unusual something that I normally see. I see a video file now. Now we can intercept video files just like we do with everything else but this one to me indicated that it was produced because we had hacked his machine we had turned his Webcam on while he was at the machine and we do this. Sometimes to to confirm particularly infrastructure analysts who at this anonymous honest machine is actually using it to fund. He's on his laptop right. Yes he's he's on his laptop and we're we're looking at the man behind the device in his lap his little boy a toddler who's just playing on the keyboard and the father smiling and Lou boy looks at the Webcam. It's it's just a glimpse but to me it seems as though he's looking at me in it reminds me of my childhood of learning about technology with with my own father and I realized this man has done nothing wrong. He's just trying to get a job. He's just trying to study. He's just trying to get through life like all of us are and yet. He's caught up. His children are caught up. We we are all caught up by a system that we were not allowed to know existed but we were not allowed to vote whether this was proper or improper and courts were not allowed to assess open courts real courts whether it was proper and constitution Where do we go from there. Edward Snowden is new memoir is called permanent record will continue our conversation after a short break this is fresh air support for NPR and the following message it come from the real real the leading reseller of authenticated luxury items shop luxury clothing accessories and fine art at unreal prices from. I'm your favorite designers like Louis Vuitton Gucci Cartier and hundreds more and the real real authenticates each item to ensure its guaranteed authentic shop shop in store on the APP or at the real real dot Com and receive twenty percent off select items with Promo code real what happens when Ronald McDonald Donald Walks into a poor immigrant neighborhood in the south of France and sets off a super sized revolution. The story of how company Slogan Salvo Shakes and Burgers became a rallying cry for workers in France. NPR's rough translation this is fresh air and we're speaking with Edward Snowden who worked for several years in the US intelligence community in two thousand thirteen he provided top secret documents about US surveillance of American citizens to three journalists which resulted in his indictment for allegedly violating the espionage act. He's written a new memoir called permanent record. He spoke to us from his apartment in Moscow. So I WANNA talk about your decision to release these access to many documents to three three journalists and just talk about why you took the course you did and why some critics say you had other options. One thing people say is look. There's a system. There are the inspector general's offices of each of these agencies. Why couldn't you go to them. we'll this is. This is a great question. for one we've never seen the inspector general's office actually being effective safeguard for the constitution itself we have had since. I came forward one of the inspector her general employees. I believe the deputy inspector general for the NSA comparison. If snowden had come to me I would have explained to him. His misconceptions exceptions about how these programs work how these things are in fact legal how these things are in fact constitutional and maybe he wouldn't have had to do this at all. The inspector general is a great resource to have if someone is a middle manager and they're engaged in sexual harassment door they are embezzling or or something of that nature but if you have a criminal conspiracy inside not just the leadership of the NSA but in fact in the White House that is run by the vice president's own lawyer in the Bush Administration Dick Cheney had a lawyer named David Addington who said building this mass surveillance system and the very first instance was legal when in fact he knew that was not the case but what do you do. This is asking you the hens to report the Fox's misbehavior to the Fox himself and I want to point out just just real quickly that is not in contention that these programs were illegal. These programs were likely unconstitutional. That's not my assertion. That is the Certian of very first Federal Court ruling of Uh Judge Leon in the wake of these disclosures prior to the revelations of mass surveillance in two thousand thirteen the government as I said these things weren't happening now be if they were happening. They were legal and see. Why are you even asking about this. In the first place the description in the book of how you worked through how you were going to release this material and how you contacted the journalist and provided at Israeli fascinating we won't have time to go into it here but I wanNA talk to you about some of the specific specific arrangements you made you three journalists were provided with access to thousands of documents that you had what conditions did did you impose on their use. What did you tell the journalists about what they could do and not do when we look at what happened what produced this the system of checks and balances failed and so if I come forward myself and said look this is wrong this violation of the constitution. I'm the president of secrets and I'm going to decide what the public needs. No one I just throw out on the internet which wouldn't be hard from technologist. Coulda done this in an afternoon. There's a risk implied in that. What if I was wrong. What if I didn't understand and these things what if it wasn't fact legal or constitutional or these programs effective rather than as I believed ineffective which later was confirmed by the Obama Administration. These programs weren't saving lives. They had some intelligence value but they didn't have a public safety value. At least that was meaningful so what I did did was I try to reconstruct the system of checks and balances by using myself to provide documents to the journalists but never to publish them myself. People don't realize this but I never made public a single document. I trust that role to the journalists public did and did not need to know before the journalists published these stories they had to go to the government and this was a condition that required them to do and tell the government warned them. They're about to run the story about this program and the government could argue against publication say you've got it wrong or you've got it right but if you publish this is going to hurt somebody. I never case. I'm aware of that. Process was followed and that's why in two thousand nineteen we've never seen any evidence at all presented by the government that someone's been harmed as a result of the stories. That's why believe these stories won the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service. It's because there is a way that you you can maximize the public benefit of a free press and them aggressively contesting the government's monopoly on information at the same time. I mitigate the risks of even a very large disclosure of documents by simply making sure that you trust the right people the right sector of society with the right system to keep everyone honest because all of us work better together than we do alone it. I will say that on that question of whether this has put hard American interests or put people people endanger there was an AP story last year at which quarter spokesman for the National Counterintelligence Insecurity Center as saying Snowden disclosed documents have put US personnel or facilities at risk around the world and damaged intelligence collection efforts exposed to tools used to amass intelligence et CETERA. Are they wrong now. They are wrong long. Look I can't correct six years of lives in sixty seconds but when you look at all of those claims they're always merely allegations. The government has never put forward any evidence and they have investigated me for six years so has basically every other government on the planet and you journalists know better better than anyone else that the government aggressively leaks when it's in its favor you can look at this. White House right now relief if disclosures of classified information just hard stop caused damage if they created risks for US personnel programs three quarters of the White House would be imprisoned right now. They're not because the vast majority of leaks while they are uncomfortable while they are embarrassing or sometimes beneficial to government far more is classified than actually needs to be so yes. The government has made those allegations and they will continue to make these allegations but look the thing that we always have to ask is what is the evidence to back that assertion and they've never ever provided that and I'm quite confident. They never will because it didn't happen. We're speaking with Edward Snowden. His new memoir is called permanent record will continue our conversation after short break this is fresh air support for NPR comes from Newman's own foundation working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from Newman's own food products products to charitable organizations that seek to make the world a better place more information is available at Newman's own foundation dot org support for NPR are coming from whyy presenting the podcast eleanor amplified and adventure series kids love and will make those summer road trips a little easier on everyone everyone here reporter Eleanor outwit crafty villains and solve mysteries as she travels the globe to get the big story available where you get podcasts or at whyy dot org this is fresh air and we're speaking with Edward Snowden who worked for several years in the US intelligence community in two thousand thirteen he provided top secret documents about US surveillance of American citizens to three journalists which resulted in his indictment on alleged violations of the espionage act. He's written a new memoir called permanent record. He spoke to us from his apartment. In Moscow. You fully expected to be identified. You eventually identified yourself off to explain your motives as you were planning this. What kind of future did you envision for yourself. The likeliest outcome from hands down was that I'd spend the rest of my life in an orange jumpsuit but in present yes but that was that was a risk that I had to take so now. You're you've been in Moscow for six years. Lindsay Milk has join your now married. you live in a two bedroom agenda -partment. What kind of security precautions do you take. you didn't want to go to a studio for this thing for this interview right. You're pretty careful aren't yeah well well. I run my own studio because people ask how I make my living. I give lectures. I I speak publicly for the American Program Bureau and Places Book May to speak about the future of cybersecurity what's happening with surveillance and about conscience and whistleblowing but I do you know I've I've never been the nightclub type from a little bit of an indoor cat. whether I lived in Maryland or New York or Geneva or Tokyo or Moscow I'll always spend the majority of my time. I'm looking into a screen so yeah. While I'm out on the street. I try not to be recognized. Am I also live much more open life now than I did. Back can twenty thirteen because it seems the consensus has resolved. Anyone who tries to kill me is only going to prove my point. Do people ask you for selfies you. Usually I get that when I'm identified because I'm a meeting journalists analysts at a hotel or something out on the street. Almost no one recognizes me which privacy advocate is just the most wonderful gift that you can get. I do get notice sometimes like when I go in computer stores or if I win in a museum want some German seem especially good at identifying me. I'm not sure y maybe it was. I was covering media but they ask for for selfish and of course I'm happy to provide them. I mean you say the book that you try to go out with a hat on. You might change your beard eared. Why do you not want to be recognized. What do you fear well think about it. I mean you work in media. your journalist you you you make your living from talking on just publicly but talking to people who have interesting things to say and yet you don't put your address. I think on your website so fans can just show up at the door. We all have a desire for certain level of privacy. I think I have risks that are higher than the average person but even if I didn't I would rather be able to selectively share share information with people about where I live how I live how I spend my time and honestly who I am if I expect do think someone might try and kidnap you extradite you to the United States or that. You know well if that's been the plan. They've done a really poor job at it. Since six years later I'm still free. I would like to think on the part of my government but they're not that foregone. I mean they're not actually looking to disappear. Whistle blowers are perhaps it's just simply because it's too difficult when I'm on the other side of the world in no less than Russia but I don't worry as much as I did. Maybe it's fatigue but yeah there was a period where I didn't want to go out without without shaping there was a time when I didn't WANNA go out without putting a scarf and a hat on but those days are long gone. The book ends Sir Back Back in that period and the beautiful thing about life and about. I guess the story that I've been fortunate to live. Is that even when things get as bad as they possibly can. Even when you see all of the ways the system can fail time and people always have the chance to make it better as somebody who knows a lot about the kind of information that can be gleaned from a cell phone. I'm wondering what precautions you take with your own. Cell phone use well first off. I try not to use one as much as possible when I do use one. I use a cell phone that I've myself modified it perform surgery on it opened opened up with special tools and I use a soldering iron to remove the microphone and I disconnect camera so that the phone can't simply listen to me when it sitting there. It physically basically has no microphone in it. When I need to make a call I just connect an external microphone through the headphone Jack and this way the phone works for you rather rather than you working for the phone. I'm you need to be careful about the software. You put on your phone you to be careful about the connections. It's making because today most people they've got a thousand apps on the phone. Was it sitting there on on your desk right now. In your hand. The screen can be off but it's connecting hundreds of thousands of times a second. If some of your audience is listening to this on podcasts right now through for example ear buds they know their screen can be turned off. It can be sitting writing in their pocket along with them. They don't even have to be looking at the phone but it's still very much active and this is the core problem of the data issue that we're dealing with today. We're passing laws that are trying trying to regulate the use of data trying to regulate the protection of data but all of these things presume. The data has already been collected what we need need to be doing. is we need to be regulating the collection of data because our phones are devices are laptops even just driving down the street with all of these systems that surround us. Today is producing records about our lives. It's the modern pollution it is invisible but it's still harms us but it doesn't harm us for some years. Let me ask you one other question. You've lived in Russia for six years now. Do you see yourself making life there or do you hope to come home someday today. My ultimate goal will always be to return to the United States and I've actually had conversations with the government last in the Obama Administration gratien about what that would look like and they said you know you should come face trial and I said sure sign me up under one condition. I have to be able to tell the the jury why I did what I did and the jury has to decide was justified or unjustified this is called a public interest defense and is allowed under pretty much every crime. I'm someone could be charged for. Even murder for example has defenses it can be self defense and so on and so forth it could be manslaughter instead of first degree murder but in the case of telling a journalist the truth about how the government was breaking the law. The government says there can be no defense. There can be no justification for why you did it. The only thing the jury gets to consider is. Did you tell journalists something. You were not allowed to tell them if yes it doesn't matter why you did it you go to jail and I have said said as soon as you guys say four whistle blowers it is the jury who decides if it was right or wrong to expose the government's own lawbreaking. I'll be in court the next day. Unfortunately the Attorney General at the time sent back a letter saying you know that sounds great but all we can do for you right now. We will promise not to torture you so I'd say negotiations are still ongoing. Although you haven't actually negotiated since the Obama Administration right right right right we're we're waiting for their call but the ball is very much in the government's Court Edward Snowden. Thanks thanks so much for speaking with us. Thank you for having me. Edward Snowden spoke to fresh air of Dave Davies from his apartment in Moscow snowed in his new memoir. Maher is called permanent record. Their interview is recorded Tuesday morning soon after the news broke that the US Justice Department filed suit to recover all proceeds oh seeds from snowden book alleging that he violated nondisclosure agreements by not letting the Government Review The manuscript before publication Snowden as attorney Ben Wizner said in a statement that the book contains no government secrets that have not previously been published by respected news organizations and that the government's minced pre publication review system is under court challenge fresh air's executive producers Danny Miller our interviews and reviews produced edited by any Salad Phyllis Myers. Sam brigger Lauren Crandall Emoryville denardo Theresa Madden Mood Sadie Challenor and Seth Kelly. I'm Terry Gross

United States government Edward Snowden National Security Agency Russia Russian government Moscow Central Intelligence Agency Terry Gross NPR US government Dave Davies Air Hong Kong Obama Administration White House Congress Los Alamos Google officer
Breaking The Edward Snowden Story

Fresh Air

47:51 min | 2 months ago

Breaking The Edward Snowden Story

"From whyy in Philadelphia. This is fresh air. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Today the inside story of reporting on the disclosures of Edward Snowden the former intelligence contractor who leaked thousands of classified documents about. Us surveillance of its own citizens. Martin Gilman was one of three journalists. Chosen to receive the snowden files says his stories on the disclosures. Got the attention of mysterious hackers who took over his ipad remotely probing for secrets and he earned the fury of national security officials. He'd known for years regarded snowden traitor in. A new book. Gilman describes his turbulent relationship with Snowden as a source assesses the impact of his revelations on American intelligence operations and the debate over National Security and privacy. Gilman's book is Dark Mirror. Edward Snowden and the American surveillance state six years ago the American intelligence community was rocked by the leak of thousands of classified documents on. Us surveillance programs by national security agency. Contractor Edward Snowden. Our Guest Barton Gilman was one of three. Journalists Snowden chose to provide those documents to and he has a new book about the experience of reporting on the massive archive and about the meaning of the snowden revelations in the debate over National Security and privacy. Gelman says he believes snowden did more good than harm but their relationship wasn't simple or easy at times snowden stopped communicating with him. Goldman's book is a gripping account of high stakes investigative reporting and ended he reveals new information about US surveillance of American citizens. Part Gilman has covered national security and intelligence issues for decades. He spent twenty one years at the Washington Post where he's earned three Pulitzer prizes one of them for quarterbacking. The team that worked on the SNOWDEN revelations he's also held positions as senior fellow at the century foundation lecturer. At Princeton's Woodrow Wilson. School and visiting research collaborator at Princeton Center for Information Technology Policy. He's currently a staff writer for the Atlantic. I spoke to him about his new book titled Dark Mirror. Edward Snowden and the American surveillance state will Barton Gilman. Welcome back to fresh air pleasure to be here Dave. You were one of three journalists that he provided this material and really the only one from a the background is a mainstream journalists. How did SNOWDEN record you? As opposed to other Laura Poitras the documentary filmmaker and Glenn Greenwald in the Guardian Snowden. Chose Glenn Greenwald first. Because he was a commentator and opinion leader someone who was a powerful Voice of skepticism against the establishment and Snowden wanted that sort of loud and clear and all in kind of defense. He chose Laura poitras because he was a filmmaker at who had herself been subject to the scrutiny of the surveillance state after she made a film about Iraq. She found herself stopped every time she crossed the border into the United States and had her her belongings searched her videotape copied her files copied and so on. Snowden came late to me. Laura Poitras convinced him that having a mainstream journalists along having someone who knew the subject as I did would be good for him. Snowden was deeply skeptical. He thought that the Washington Post would be afraid to publish Or would bow down to government pressure. I had many conversations with him before he agreed to include me in which I said you don't understand my world at all. We don't stand down because the government doesn't want to see a story. It took a lot of convincing for him just as it took a lot of concern for me that he was real and just review for us. What the terms were of him providing this information to you in the other two reporters well. I told Snowden that I was not undertaking in advance to publish everything. He gave me anything in particular that I would make my own judgment about the news value and that I would give the government and opportunity to tell me about Damaged they foresaw if story was published. And so I had that conversation with the government. Every time snowden at first seemed a little skeptical about this and worried that it simply meant. I was going to give the government veto power over an article and in fact he saw it as potential evidence of a cowardly approach by the Washington. Post later he came to see the value and the importance of trying to avoid avoidable harm in publication of these stories and he began to insist that that was what he wanted. All along Snowden has always said publicly that he He wanted the journalists to evaluate this material and handled it responsibly. He didn't want to dump it on the Internet net or or give it to wikileaks. But did he wanted journalists to make judgments and I think he says he wanted them to confer with the government so harm could be avoided. Was that your understanding. All along snowden absolutely wanted us to make our own judgments about newsworthiness. He absolutely did not want us to dump the entire archive online. If he wanted daddy could have done it himself. I mean the guy knows how to work the Internet. He wanted the credibility of journalists behind the disclosures He wanted us to check the facts and set the context and he wanted us to what was newsworthy and what was harmful so he. He essentially relinquished all the close judgment calls to me and my fellow journalists and eventually he left himself without even access to all this material right. That's right that's one of the most fascinating things here. Once he gave the documents to me and the other two he removed his own ability to access then he destroyed the encryption key and he did that because he didn't want to lose the documents he didn't want them to be stolen and he didn't WanNa be compelled to open them. When he crossed the border he foresaw that he be under the authority of one or another foreign government. He didn't want to be carrying around a suitcase that he could open That would expose all those. Us secrets directly to a foreign government. So he made it literally impossible for him to do so now. Over the next several months you wrote several detailed stories Based on these documents and additional reporting by you and Laura Laura Poitras and a whole team of reporters at the Washington Post. You actually weren't at the post at the time and there's all interesting story about how you went back to rejoin them And tap their expertise and legal protection These stories dealt with all many different ways in which the National Security Agency was gathering information on Americans. There's this there's a lot of subtlety to this. But can you just share with some of the most Important revelations that came from those stories so one of the most important is the one that came first and that is that the United States government was collecting records of every single phone. Call made by Americans whether it was a local call a national call an international call and it was saving what were known as the call detail records and it sounds like Mumbo jumbo but all it really means is they. Were saving a record of who you called. Who called you how long you talked And in some cases Information that would identify where you were and information like this in. Large quantities is extraordinarily sensitive. It is possible to reconstruct. Someone's whole life by taking a record of five years of their phone calls for example and this was an example of what I meant earlier about government doing things not only that the public didn't know but that government had done his very best to obscure so for example. The authority that was using for this call records program came under the Patriot. Act was called section two fifteen of the act and it allowed the government to collect business records the Justice Department in the FBI put out fact sheets every year saying we're making limited nuanced careful use of this authority last year. They said I want to say this was in two thousand and four. They reported that they had used the patriot. Act AUTHORITY TO GET BUSINESS RECORDS. Only twenty one times and it turned out that twelve of those twenty one were sufficient to produce one trillion. Call records If that's not an outright lie it is a deliberate attempt to deceive the public about what it's doing with its authority and that's the kind of story I wanted to write. So that's the first story. The second was a program called prism. Under which the NSA obtained information from big internet companies like Google and Yahoo and Microsoft and facebook and it did so in again in numbers quantities. That had never been dreamed of in Public Debate. It used to be that the government had to get an individual warrant for every account that surveilled under the authority of the FIS amendments. Act of two thousand eight. The government could finally do what it went for a time which was to tap into any account it felt like in large numbers and so there were now suddenly tens of thousands of account actually over one hundred thousand that the government was monitoring at any one time. This became the most prolific collection program in terms of its impact on the President's Daily. Brief that is to the. Nsa was getting more information from big American Internet companies than from any other source right and this was included audio and video chats photographs emails documents from Big Internet companies that we all know Google and facebook and others right all of that now. It's important to note that Americans were not the targets of these surveillance programs the. Nsa did not deliberately aim to collect information from American account nevertheless because of the way. The program worked. It collected far more bystanders than targets. An enormous numbers of those standards were Americans. I actually went through a large dump of actual Pfizer intersects that is to say. I actually saw the content of what they were collecting from accounts and in that found that there were tens of thousands of American accounts that were sucked into the vortex of this program. You've had a lot of experience with publishing government secrets and dealing with the reactions of government officials and a lot of these are people that you've known for years. How did do the reactions to this? Set of disclosures compare with your past interactions. The reactions ranged the gamut. This time there were times when we had sort of adult mature com conversations about the equities in any given disclosure about the stakes as the government saw them for national security. There were times when they were just very angry and Dismissive and said we're not GONNA have a word to say This is on your head. Whatever happens they were certainly very angry. At Edward Snowden throughout and I found myself ostracized from sources who I had known for years. There was one particularly memorable moment. Where you were going to do a story on the black budget that is to say money targeted towards a lot of these programs which was wasn't open to the public. And you were you and your fellow reporter. Greg Miller were taken into a big room. Joyner describe this. Yeah while the black budget is What we had were seven thousand pages of classified expenditures Naming the programs that they were being spent on and we never seriously considered publishing anything like The whole thing or any large chunk of it there. It revealed all kinds of details. That shouldn't be revealed about specific places and targets and vulnerabilities of legitimate foreign targets but understanding the thing as a whole. How are we spending our money? Big Picture What what's the one page? A bar chart of where tens of billions of intelligence dollars are spent that seemed to us to be fundamental to a basic public debate. Well the intelligence community asked me to come in with my colleague Greg Miller who was co author of that story. Greg's longtime intelligence correspondent very cool nerves Very sort of Zen like we went in to an auditorium filled with people from the seventeen. Us intelligence agencies and offices and they just stared daggers at us they were seething with rage at the idea that we had this information that we were considering publishing it that they couldn't do anything to stop it. We thought that they would raise questions issues. tell us this thing here would be especially sensitive or ask us what we were intending to publish but it was basically a long series of complaints and angry outbursts at the whole idea that we were going to do this Greg and I left without understanding why they had called the meeting in the first place. Since nothing of substance happened there. Were plenty of times that you did have detailed conversations in withheld material at the request of the government because they might endanger operations right right. The fact is that most of what we withheld. I never brought to the government. It was just obvious. There were photographs of operational personnel in the field. Who were clandestine personnel? I'm not going to publish photographs of Secret. Agents of the. Us government There were names of specific targets in ongoing collection activity. Not going to do that. When the government responded to you on a lot of these stories they said look everything we are doing is legal. Was it well? First of all that wasn't true Some of what they were doing was not lawful or had never been tested in court And in fact in many cases judges had no idea this was even happening for one program for example. The the Disclosures for the first time allowed the litigation that program in open court? That was the spying on American telephone. Calls and the courts split on whether it was constitutional and the only thing that prevented us from getting a Supreme Court. Hearing I think was that The NSA agreed to stop doing it. But the larger point is that sometimes the scandal is. What's legal sometimes? The public debate needs to be about what the government is doing under legal authority. That no one knew about. Sometimes you went to know that they think this legal authority entitles them to collect millions of American data. Points around the world Maybe you WanNa know what boundaries they draw and how they handle information about Americans These were things that you couldn't debate because you weren't they weren't known and Snowden and the stories about snowden disclosures brought them to lay right in a lot of cases the legal authority rested on Secret Interpretations Of Laws and court decisions and executive orders. Right so that you couldn't really even know the legal rationale even if you knew about the program right right. So Congress will pass a law that has one phrase in it and there will then be lengthy memos written inside government interpreting that law in the way most favorable to what the government wants to do sometimes stretching the boundaries of words two points at which they're sort of unrecognizable and then the government operates under that legal authority which has been challenged by no one. Because it's been seen by no one outside of government and this is this is behind. You know a lot of things that the public shocking. In the snowden disclosures a lot of the government officials argued to you that Yes a lot of information is collected in these programs but we have policies and procedures which ensure that they are used responsibly. Right I mean there's a there's a lot of detail to that but I'm wondering as you've talked to these people over time whether you have come to see things differently with president trump and power where you have a president who you know. Fires inspectors general that criticize him and his supporters and sometimes suggests his political opponents should be investigated I mean. D- do policies themselves ensure responsible behaviour. I guess is the question. Well I think you've put your finger on something really critical right there and it was something that surprised me in the course of reporting for this book because there were people in two thousand thirteen and fourteen and fifteen. Who told me didn't worry about the enormous power of this surveillance machinery? Because they trusted the people who are running it. They trusted themselves. They trusted the Inspector General to call out and prevent bad behavior. They trusted supervisors. They trusted fundamentally the president and the presidency and they trusted Democrats and Republicans so they trusted George W Bush and Barack Obama equally to use this stuff with the right motives and with right kinds of limits but so much of what is done under authority of the NSA is done based on norms and traditional understandings of what terms mean legal interpretations and when trump came to power A guy who is allergic to norms a guy who is at war with every institution of accountability. Whether it's the press whether it's inspectors general Whether it's courts when that kind of person has his hands on the enormous power that is granted by the ability to look into see into anything that travels across the Internet. Then they're worried and so people who surprise me People like Jim Komi and People like General Clapper who had been the director of National Intelligence. These were people who had ardently the surveillance powers and the checks and balances held on them. They were no longer so confident about those checks and Balances Barton. Gilman is a staff writer for the Atlantic. He wrote his stories about the revelations of Edward Snowden with the team for the Washington Post. His new book is dark. Mirror Edward Snowden and the American surveillance state. He'll be back and we'll talk more after a break I'm Dave Davies and this is fresh air support for NPR and the following message. Come from duck. Duck go are you tired of being tracked online duck duck go can help? They helped millions of people. Like you take control of their personal information online with one download. You can search and browse privately. Avoiding Trackers Duck Duck. Go privacy simplified. My guest is Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. Barton Gilman he was one of three journalists who former national security agency contractor. Edward Snowden chose to receive tens of thousands of leaked documents about US surveillance of American citizens. Gilman has a new book about reporting those stories and about the meaning of the revelations in the debate over National Security and privacy. His book is dark. Mirror Edward Snowden and the American surveillance state. I WanNa talk a bit about your relationship with stowed. Um He said at one point I think that he vetted you more than anybody else. Among the three journalists and that in the end you screwed him woody me snowden wanted advocates on his side. He wanted a pure and clear message of dissent against the way the NSA was behaving And he wanted nothing that would raise any doubts or questions about him or or get into his personal life. Or anything like that I continue to ask questions the way a journalist should ask and so we have these tense exchanges in which he would say for example. Are you purposely asking me things you know? Why won't answer just to Piss me off He was angry at me one The first time he got angry at me he was right to be angry. In a an early profile of him inadvertently exposed and online handle an anonymous handle that he was still using for communications and that caused him some trouble as he tried to. Change handles an encryption keys on the fly and that's when you quit talking to you for a while right. He quit talking to me for several months after that and We started up again because he believed hours handling these stories seriously that I was making a diving in to the subject in a way that was exposing truths that weren't being exposed anywhere else because this wasn't just a question of opening the documents reading reading your story The documents were incomplete pieces of jigsaw puzzle. Very hard to understand they required external reporting with sources in the government and out of the government They required interpretation and discovery And I was putting things together in a way that he thought was important. And so he got over his personal Anger at the way. I behaved I. I think it was December of twenty thirteen. You went over to visit him in Moscow. Right I I don't know how much you can talk about this but I'm curious about your security precautions in making that trip when you you you were careful. You're careful to protect your digital data Did you figure that the Russians would be following you or or surveilling you while you were there you know? I don't like to be dramatic or self important but I thought yeah. There's a pretty good chance that if an American journalist who's reading about Secret American intelligence programs comes over to interview a former intelligence officer. It's not that that would probably be worth Their devotion of a little bit of surveillance themselves. I assumed that my devices and my telephone calls would be monitored and so to begin with. I didn't bring any data over with me. I wasn't gonNA bring classified documents to a country where they could possibly read them And directly expose American secrets to a foreign power So I didn't log onto any of my accounts I didn't bring my actual computer or my usual telephone. I brought empty ones but I still had the puzzle of how I was going to interview. Snowden take notes take photographs make recordings and bring those back to the United States while crossing an international border and not hand over those documents those recordings and so on to either government. I didn't want the. Us government to hear everything. I had said with Snowden I didn't want the Russian government To have access all that information either. So how did you get the material safely back without carrying it over the border so there one or two tricks that? I won't mention but here's something I can I tape recorded the interviews with Snowden on digital recorder that recorded the audio onto a little memory card. Sd Card and so. What I did was as soon as the interview ended. I would copy the data from the St Card which was Unencrypted into an encrypted archive on my computer and it was encrypted with a key that I didn't carry with me it is possible using something called. Gp To encrypt a file. In a way. That you yourself cannot decrypt it until you until you go. Pick up the key that you've left back in New York for example so I- encrypted it that way I uploaded it onto some cloud servers in that encrypted form and I was also did not carry the key that labeled me to download from those same servers and then I took SD card at a computer. And I cut it into pieces so I was no longer to be in possession of the audio file at all. It was sitting in the cloud waiting for me and I just hope to God that I didn't screw it up and that I could decrypt when I got home You spend a lot of time talking with him did. Did you end up with a different impression of him than you had before I did? I was expecting to find a guy who was very serious and I find that I was expecting to find a guy in Moscow was shell shocked and lonely and very conscious of the sacrifices that he'd made and maybe even having second thoughts i. It's one thing to anticipate that you're going to be alone in a foreign country. But he had not actually even planned to be in Russia. He got stuck there And what I found instead was a guy who was very much at peace with his choices. Who is as he described himself an indoor cat who doesn't usually go out into the world very much anyway. His socializing and his intellectual and his productive work is almost all done online. I I asked him at one point. How many hours a day do you think your online? He said the hours that I have a week. There was a house. Intelligence Committee report about snowden which was harshly critical and There's been reporting that. The classified version of that report listed several instances in which national security was harmed? I'm wondering if you have any insight. Into what those instances were if there were particular harms done by particular disclosures. That fact itself would be classified as you mentioned and so. I can't argue with an assertion that's made in the dark and there may be legitimate reasons to keep that classified On the other hand I would have to say that not to put a fine point on it. That House intelligence committee report was garbage. It was a political document. It was basically a long screed out. It's not and it was filled with facts or assertions affect that. Were plainly regrettable that were simply wrong Just the simple question of calling. It's not a high school dropout He had earned his ged at the same time that his class graduated With top top scores. They knew that he had advanced computer security and computer science credentials. Or for example. They said there's no evidence that it's not actually was injured in the army and so he was lying about the reasons for his at the end to his army service. Army records made it very clear. I've I've seen the records. He broke both legs in training And for the House Intelligence Committee which had privileged access to government records to say things like that gives you a decent flavor of the more complicated untruths in the report We're GONNA need to take a short break here. Barton Gilman is a Pulitzer Prize. Winning journalist currently a staff writer for the Atlantic his new book about reporting on the Edward Snowden revelations for the Washington Post is called dark mirror. This is fresh air on Bullseye. This Week Tina fey on creating unbreakable kimmy Schmidt thirty rock and being the best of every time there was a window of time we go to awards things and pick up our prizes and party with the people from Madman this week on Bullseye for maximum fund dot org NPR. This is fresh air. And we're speaking with Barton Galman. He's a Pulitzer Prize. Winning journalist. Who's covered national security issues for decades and he was one of three journalists tapped by an essay contractor Edward Snowden to receive leaked documents in two thousand thirteen. Gilman's new book is Dark Mirror Edward Snowden and the American surveillance state. It's interesting the effect breaking the story. Had on your life I mean apart from dealing with the government and dealing with Snowden You are now publicly in possession of a lot of secrets and you're pretty careful about protecting your digital information. But did you become aware that you're either being followed or surveilled or people? Were trying to hack your stuff. Yeah you know It's not paranoid if people are really trying to get you And I knew from the first time I saw the documents before I published a story that this was going to paint a big target on my back. it's advertising that you have something special in secret and advertising pretty quickly that I was not going to publish all of it So I knew that I would be a subject of interest to Hackers to the US government and foreign intelligence agencies And I gradually accumulated considerable evidence that this was true Someone tried to break into my g. Mail accounts Where I DID NOT STORE. Sensitive documents But nevertheless Google warned me big flashing Pink Bar on my screen said Warning we believe state sponsored attackers. Trying to break into your device or your account. I found out later that that was the government of Turkey. Turkey was unexpected and bad news for me because I thought there were a substantial number of likelier candidates And more capable candidates coming after me so if Turkey also was joining the party That suggested the threat landscape was brought than I would have liked to think My IPAD was hacked right in front of my eyes. I was holding it. The screen guttered out into static. And then white letters started marching across the screen with technical commands in called UNIX. If that had worked as expected as intended it would have happened while I slept or wasn't looking at the machine and After a couple of minutes of fooling around like that the hacker would have complete control of the device And what worried me about that? Was that remotely hacking an IPAD is not Beginners Hack. It's quite difficult Quite expensive to Breakthrough apples considerable security remotely without physically connecting to the device is a million dollar. Hack that say that That a data brokers or surveillance brokers pay million dollar bounties for what's called an untethered hack of the Ipad operating system. And I did not want to be worth that kind of effort. I do not want to be worth that kind of expense but I was. When you were reviewing the snowden documents you found out on a program called first fruit which. I if I have this right was sort of a an effort to accumulate information about journalists You filed a funeral of Information. Act Request which you had to go to court to get enforced and got some information about what the government had on you. What did you learn? Well I learned first of all that The CIA and some other agencies gave what's known as a glow more response to my freedom of information request and the Glenmore response says it is classified whether or not we have any classified information about you. So we refuse to confirm or deny the existence of any data would be responsive to this request. That's never a good sign I they're the most interesting things that I got from. This lawsuit were Which is ongoing. By the way were a the list of things that the government was asking the judge not to release to me so the FBI said for example that it could not release the contents of the L. Sore database which stands for electronic surveillance. That mentioned my name because it would reveal previously unknown surveillance techniques to the public. What you don't want when you're reporter is to be told that they were using unknown surveillance techniques on you and that's in effect what the what the disclosure said so when you broke stories about classified material? Who knows WHO's phone. They may have tapped. Who who the May have followed. You just don't know I really don't know I know from us. Government sources that Russia and China Do their best to get at the materials that I had and I talked to a I. There's a scene in the book in which I have a very frank conversation with Rick Legend. Who was the deputy director of the NSA who told me matter of factly That he assumes that Russia and China both got access to anything they wanted in my possession Because basically he said we could have done it so we think they could. That doesn't mean they got the Snowden file though right. He thinks that they did I have no way of confirming that I know that I took every precaution that I possibly could as a civilian non-government employees. I kept this no documents on a computer that had been stripped of its communications hardware so that it couldn't touch the Internet Even if I tried The disc was encrypted. The key to the disc was on a separate piece of hardware That was never in the same room. As the SNOWDEN files Which were themselves encrypted stored inside a big heavy four hundred pounds safe in a locked room with a video camera and so on. That doesn't mean that the best intelligence agencies in the world couldn't get to it. I just can't give that kind of guarantee And all I can do was my best. We needed to take one more short. Break here Then we'll talk. Some more Barton. Gilman is the Pulitzer Prize. Winning journalist now a staff writer with the Atlantic his new book about reporting on the Edward Snowden revelations for the Washington Post is called dark mirror. This is air face masks have become the new normal as we continue to grapple with the ongoing pandemic. But when did we start wearing masks for our health and safety this week on through line the origins of the n? Ninety five mask and how it became the life saving tool it is today through line from NPR. Podcast where we go back in time to understand the present. Hi It's Terry Gross inviting you to check out our new online archive collecting forty years of fresh air interviews reviews. You can hear my interviews with people like David Bowie of Franklin Johnny Cash. John Updike. Tony Morrison searched for names. You're interested in make a playlist for yourself or friends at fresh air archive dot org. That's fresh air. Archive Dot Org. This is fresh air. And we're speaking with Martin Gilman. He's a Pulitzer Prize. Winning journalist. Who's covered national security issues for a long time. And he's one of three journalists. Who reported in the documents leaked by Edward Snowden in two thousand thirteen? His new book is Dark Mirror. Edward Snowden and the American surveillance state you know. Edward Snowden says what he wanted to do with. This leak of documents was to start a debate about how much authority a democracy wants to give its government to acquire information about us. As it pursues its national interests Seven years of pass now almost would have been the results of that debate. It's such an interesting question because the answers tend in opposite directions. If you WANNA start a debate It's not succeeded beyond the wildest ambitions that you could plausibly have had. The public debate about surveillance was national and international and lasted for well over a year and continues to this day Periodically even the biggest critics of Snowden. Not all of them but some of them inside government including a former. Fbi Director former essay. Deputy Director former director of national intelligence. All say he started debate that the public needed to have a out the limits of surveillance in a democratic society at the same time Most of the programs that he exposed continue they administration of Barack Obama was very good at deflecting conversations about what I thought were the most important issues and keeping things focused on small things that they were prepared to change the biggest one just to just to state this clearly is that NASA operations overseas which collect information in bulk sometimes the entire fruits of gigantic pipes of information that a traveling across the Internet in someplace. That's outside the United States. These operations are scooping in tens and possibly Over one hundred million Americans in the course of those operations and much of that information is retained. Some of it is used and so foreign operations have a huge impact on domestic privacy interests of US citizens protected by the Constitution of the United States And nobody has really addressed that in terms of policy change so have have there been any changes in law or executive orders that would affect these programs. There are changes in law. The there there have been limits and there are some proposals for new limits on the collection of telephone records Under the Patriot. Act Authority which at the moment. We're talking has lapsed. A Congress had sunset provisions In several of the surveillance authorities so that they have to be renewed every several years Congress failed to renew these provisions when they expired in I believe February and they are now debating between the House and the Senate the circumstances under which they will be renewed and there are some interesting reform amendments that are going to be part of that conversation and there was The USA Freedom Act which changed the way the telephone records were collected and the NSA zone decision About a year ago that it was going to stop collecting them. It's going to stop the program on its own because it wasn't worth anything. It wasn't valuable so it was gigantic intrusion on privacy For very little intelligence gain so yeah there have been changes but the biggest changes have not been changes in law. They've been marketplace. Changes have been a demand for privacy by consumers which led to changes a behavior by technology companies. It used to be that most of our emails traveled around the Internet as an open book Anyone who was physically at any of the junction points of the Internet could read it because it was in plain language like a postcard with the With words words showing I'm today most websites and most email is encrypted and that makes it much much harder for the NSA. To collect information in bulk. It can still break into just about anything at wants to. I mean we have Some of the best hackers and most expensive hacking infrastructure in the world So if they've set their minds on target they say they want this one or that one. They're GONNA get him but if they want to collect information in bulk from just about everyone who passes across this or that channel there now thwarted by what. Silicon Valley has done. One more thing snowden is in Moscow. He's his His girlfriend Lindsay Mills is. They're they're they're now married Any chance that he will be back in the United States any time. My Crystal Ball is never any good I don't see the conditions Right now or in the near future that get him back to the United States The American government and the and the people in it are still very very angry at snowden. They would not agree to take him back without subjecting him to trial under the espionage. Act for which there would be no defense There's no public interest defense in a in a leak case if you tell information to a reporter that was classified information that counts as espionage Which is really a very different thing. But in law it's the same snowden would be subject to Potentially up to a lifetime in jail if he came back he won't come back voluntarily under those conditions. He has said he would like to come back if there were a fair trial by which he means if he could argue that the things he exposed were unlawful or against public interest. But that's not one of his choices at the moment. I don't see any reason for Vladimir Putin to send it back either It is politically convenient for. Putin to be In the posture of protecting a freedom fighter a human rights fighter or someone who would expose wrongdoing and his own government and he gets a kick out of that. He doesn't seem to me. Have any a good reason to expel Snowden Wilburton Gilman? Thanks so much for speaking with us again. Thank you for allowing me. I love this show. Barn Gilman is a staff writer at the Atlantic his book about his Pulitzer Prize winning reporting on the snowden revelations which were published in the Washington Post is dark mirror. Edward Snowden and the American surveillance state on tomorrow's show for couples working at home during the pandemic home is also the office and for those with kids. It's the school to for many families. The experience is highlighting gender inequities in housework and parenting. We'll talk with Brigid Solti director of the better life lab a work life gender equity and Social Policy Program at the think tank New America. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our Technical Director and engineer is Audrey Bentham additional engineering. Help from Charlie Kyler. Our interviews and reviews are produced an edited by. Amy Salad. Phyllis Myers Sam Brigger Lauren Crandall Heidi Soman Theresa Madden Fe. Challenge Steph Kelly and Joel. Wolfram our associate producer of digital media. Is Molly Seavy Nesper? Roberta shorrock directs the show for Terry Gross Davies.

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Edward Snowden: The complicated man behind an epic heist (The Art Of The Exit podcast)

Yahoo Finance Presents

32:54 min | 11 months ago

Edward Snowden: The complicated man behind an epic heist (The Art Of The Exit podcast)

"Edward Snowden hero overland well. It's possible to be a bit of both in June June of two thousand thirteen. Edward Snowden was working a contract job as a systems administrator for the NSA in his time there he allegedly stole will one point five million classified files from the NSA he then flew to Hong Kong where he met with journalists and provided documents which detailed abuses abuses by both the NSA and its partners these journalists took that information and published story after story which sent shockwaves through the Internet and the world a few days later snowden identified himself as an American whistleblower and caught a flight to Moscow a few weeks later where he lives is to this day. This story has countless layers of complexity was he a hero or a traitor was snowden protecting the privacy rights of his fellow citizens or did he have ulterior motives behind the curtain. Wall kind of person was snowden before the leaks and what will this end up costing posting the United States when it's all said and done this is the story of Edward Snowden the man behind the biggest information heist in history story from Yahoo Finance. This is the art of the exit. I'm Alex. You're early on the scene with Snowden so maybe tell me what was going on with you your writing about the whole situation. You also uncovered a lot as it was starting to progress. Maybe just tell L. Your story. The snowden leaks came at a great time for me professionally and personally in the sense that as a young reporter at business insider I was interested in national security and I was interested in specifically domestic spying so when Snowden came out it. It really hit directly on my beat. This is Michael B Kellie my colleague at Yahoo Finance. He's an expert on the Snowden case and agreed to help tell the story and so I covered it immediately and then something interesting happened the leaks started on about on June fifth two thousand thirteen and he identified himself on June ninth Hong Kong time then two days later after he identifies himself Edward Snowden American whistle alarm he gives an interview with the South China Morning Post he also provides documents to that reporter Lana Lamb and those those documents were actually detailed operations against China as opposed to domestic surveillance activities of of the NSA which was is the big kind of reveal of snow documents when he gave that interview saying I have more documents. I have to go through the mall. I did not provide these documents to journalists before four in the actual details of the documents were foreign intelligence operations the US against China it piqued my interest in a different way and when I asked an expert cyber expert who'd worked with NATO to put together the international rule book called the talent manual for cyber operations he said Yeah and Snowden revealed to dispatch. I'm wearing post is just spying. It's just an updated version of espionage. That's been going going on forever but now the technology is much better at that point my mind kind of went on parallel tracks where it was obvious that the early snowden leaks had exposed something that was important for American society and start a privacy discussion that continues to this day. There is also this aspect aspect of well. Why is he also leaking this information that doesn't really have that same public interest in in mind and it really is only helpful to the people he's leaking inobound namely the Chinese government and even Glenn Greenwald all two's the the main and most aggressive journalists on the snowden case in who one of the the three journalists that snowden really work within provided documents since two he was asked by a reporter at the time and he said yeah basically paraphrasing that that if he had to guess who would be that was trying to ingratiate himself to the people of Hong Kong and the authorities and that in itself is a recognition that that snowden was no longer acting out of altruism he was a very selfish act in the sense that he was trying to to save himself from being caught by authorities handed over gouges and so that that added an extra element to the story so was everybody else sings divergence like you said these two parallel tracks trains of thought almost like he's a good guy on one side and in a bad guy on the other side or is that unique to something you noticed than maybe others had there weren't that many people who noticed it if you speak to former government officials officials at at the time they certainly noticed it they knew the difference between those two pieces of Information William Binnie any who was a mathematician at the NSA for thirty years. He ended up quitting right after nine eleven because he believed that there were abuses being committed. E actually came out after are snow leaked that information to the South China and post and said well. He's transitioning from a whistleblower to a traitor which is is a pretty wild statement in a couple years later. I actually asked Bill Binney about that statement and he said when pressed he said that he stood by that statement well and he's kind of a hero to Snowden so that's it's a fascinating aspect but for the most part in two thousand thirteen those leaks the initial ones really just rocked. Everyone and they kept coming there. was there was a really really good story developing which was ever snowed in the whistle blower the champion of privacy and everyone's freedoms that that was really the dominant story so this subtexts that there is this other element to it didn't really catch on at the time that subtext. Michael's referring two has become the most interesting part of the story to me when looking at motives it always just comes down to the person who was Edward Snowden before four he began handing over those documents well see a brave Patriot willing to put his whole life on the line to create more transparency in the US or is there something else behind these actions the only way to get any clear direction as to look snow's life before the leaks. Why don't you tell me what you know about him. What made Edward Snowden the way he is yeah that that's a really fascinating part of the story and and it it's a different part of the story but it's it's part of the story that becomes important when evaluating intent. Why does anyone do anything and you know we are the end of all the actions that we've taken before now and we are created by the context in which we grew up and was born in Nineteen eighty-three so depending on where you put the cut off a millennial. He's is right there. He's he's one of the original digital natives. He liked computers. he was very good at it. He t took to it very well. he grew up in North Carolina for a time lived not far from Fort Mead where the NSA is based EGR opening of government family is mother works for the courts. His father worked in the the Coast Guard. He had a tough teen years. He dropped out of high school when he was about fifteen and he says because he got mono and just didn't go back his parents got divorced when he was seventeen going on eighteen and he was basically at that point on socializing mostly on the Internet on these ars technica forms so the first time he logged on December of two thousand and one over the next ten plus years he is on on and off but on those forms his last post is right before he allegedly started stealing documents. You learn a lot about his personality. He calls himself an indoor cat but now and he lives in Moscow because he's just computer all the time Gotcha. You said one thing that I want to kind of dig at when he dropped out of high school because is he claimed to have motto. You say that saying like we a lot of people get mono and it doesn't take them out of high school. Necessarily what do you think was the the real story. They're like what what caused that. You think it's impossible to say based on what we're going on in terms of these are these online artifacts of his posts online. He rails against institutional schooling. He doesn't like the system. He never liked system. Whatever system he's in in the first time we see that is through the school system so yeah. It's true that you know almost everyone knows people who had mono in high school and those people didn't drop out so ah it suggests that there was a larger context there and it becomes interesting for Edward Snowden his life because a lot of times medical reasons become so important at different stages so he joined the Special Forces training program and this is right around when the Iraq war is really heating up and he did he basically washed out but he says that he broke both of his legs in a training accident accident so there's another medical reason for him to leave this institution this different institition people haven't hasn't his medical records haven't been published because that's a privacy thing but the official reason for him leaving was an administrative discharge wasn't a medical discharge and and if you talk to form officials that's kind of a big difference right so and and even even if you would have broken his legs if he wanted to stay in the the program he could have just like if you get mono in high school and you want to stay in highschool there are there are ways that they can accommodate even in the military tearing right and famous most famously when he left the NSA Hawaii to go to Hong Kong with all his documents. He told his boss that he had to go to a doctor because he had epilepsy so there's another medical reason to leave an institution but that was actually sleep just as cover story said he he'd get a few days time lead time to go to Hong Kong. This is a something that's repeated itself pattern in in his story. We spoke a little beforehand and you said something interesting that I I wanted to kind of talk about too because clearly he was in. He was online like you said an indoor cat even back then but he also interests in gaming right. Wasn't that part like He. He was an arcade visitor. Yeah he's he talks about the arcade in Maryland. He's really big into tech and one of the the Internet pages that he was on he put his occupation as Tekken and you you know he's on all these different threads but over the years he's consistently on video game threads whether it's arcade talks about tech and he talks about dance dancer. Lucien another arcade game but he's also on console games about metal gear solid two and he's definitely a Gamer of the times with his presence online was that generally positive was just talking to friends talking about gaming gaming. Were there other sides to the story of other than just being teenager young young kid talking to your buddies about video games online yeah that that's an interesting question particularly in this day and age when you have people celebrities where they're what they said in public before four is basically being mind and brought back up and used against them in certain ways and was snowden yeah. There's there's an element of he's a young Guy and there's obviously a bit of anger in him and so he's just kind of throwing words around and as a lot of young men undo but he also stands out within this community of mostly men as being pretty aggressive you know now it's up to each individual person to chocolate up either as a young is just boys will be boys kind of thing but that kind of response doesn't resonate as much as it did even a few years ago so there are some fascinating examples of him saying that him being discussion and responding to someone's argument as factory and another. Yucel user will push back and say you know. Factories hate speech you oh you should this is a pointless conversation about X. men. You don't need to be a bringing in these terms in which is double all down and saying oh I quote I had no idea ours had such a thriving population of militant homosexuals so really playing that up you know at the time he's twenty three years old so it makes me think that when I was twenty three years old was I speaking like that. No I wasn't online like that either but it makes it interesting that he kind of has this history himself of of you know words he used that we can evaluate within the context of the time. Maybe walk me through what's what's going on with him while he's in his contract the one where he's actually beginning to gather information maybe right before he actually starts stealing or when he says says he starts stealing at one point he said when I think he was to NBC he said that when he washed out of the Army Special Forces versus program he had to find another way to serve he got a job at a facility on the campus of University of Maryland as a security guard in his actually area. It's a a kind of language school and says technically a dod facility and he's basically an essay security guard working the night shift for a few months and he had to go through the security clearance process and then he worked as as the security guard for for five months or so and when he left that job he he took with him a very valuable thing which is a security clearance and so once you had a security clearance he's he's basically known to the system and so he applied reportedly at a job fair he he applied to the CIA and got picked up despite not having having traditional schooling. I was GONNA say dropped out of high school. It's pretty wild that he was able to to land such a great job with you know yeah and you know it it depends he asked some formula officials say that he had to have some poll like ask his grandfather who was a rear admiral who had worked on Joint Task Force with the CIA and FBI and was connected or Mike Morale the former acting director CIA in his book says that Post nine eleven eleven the CIA needed telecommunications analysts they needed people and it's clear that snowed indefinitely new computers and definitely knew this stuff so wherever you fall on that spectrum he got hired by the CIA basically throughout his time at the CIA we know from interviews with his superiors they were pushing pushing a declassified assessment in in December two thousand sixteen he was basically clashing with superiors from from the beginning of this training program he thought that his he knew better than his superiors in certain ways and he had this habit of a c seen people much higher on the food chain okay and this is another trend of Edward Snowden in like the medical thing he he did this several times times in his time in the CIA and the NSA where so he's bringing in the boss's boss's boss at that point he according to this assessment he seed need someone who is the head of the CIA directorate overseeing what he's doing and it put that per- that person was was one of a couple dozen highest CIA officials and he he was a trainee but he thought that the situation wasn't being handled well so he was going to see someone who he thought could handle it. memo written in September two thousand eight hours. Where's snow superior described as energetic officer with a plethora of experience on Microsoft operating systems well also quote often does not positively respond to advice from senior officers does not recognize the chain of command often demonstrates a lack of maturity and it does not appear to be embracing the culture Snowden life has clear patterns he struggled with insistems and pushed back against authority as Michael mentioned slowdowns antagonistic online personality along with his struggles with superiors at work. Give a snapshot into what he was like. Now is is that proof that he is a villain without a heart no but it is proof that he could be a very difficult man to be around and that he had problems living within within a system the he didn't control after the break we go through the details of how snowden was stealing information and what this case ended ended up costing the United States at Toyota we assemble cars and trucks right here with American hands American hands at the design table and on the assembly line handing over keys hammering assembling hardworking hands hands that volunteer hands that served served our country hands the coach t-ball the hands that assemble our vehicles hold us together so when we get asked who we are we proudly raise our hands and say we we are Toyota. USA Two vehicles and components are assembled in the US using US and globally sourced parts snowden is said they do have stolen around one point five million classified files from the NSA before fleeing to Hong Kong. I asked Michael. How exactly was he able to do wit without being noticed I wanNA know how snowden was doing this like. I I I kind of picture. He's head to the office. He's like has has pockets full a hard drives and he's just like plugging them into computers left and right and just stealing stuff silly probably an UN realistic idea what was going on. Can you tell me how practically he was taking these these files in these documents yes so it definitely wasn't as presented in the Oliver Stone Film where he kind of just had a thumb drive and he stuck it in for a few minutes and then put it in a Rubik's cube and walked out. This was a pretty systematic the way that it was described to me by people with knowledge matter was that he was clever wasn't it you know people use the word hack but he really used a few work arounds and he was smart about what work arounds rounds he had in the access that he had for him to devise a system that worked for him and the best we know about this is from the House Permanent Select Committee many on intelligence their release reporting in late two thousand sixteen basically review of the disclosures they say here that he used several methods to gather the information information as they do with the tone of this document they add quote none of which required advanced computer skills and I think that's kind of an unnecessary very jab. I think this was pretty smart. People who are experts said that this was clever so I'm sure it didn't require full state level style hacking working as we would think of it but this was pretty clever so what he did was part of his job was to collect files and move them and so one of the basic things he do was a just a scraping tool that allowed him to collect a bunch of files which was he was able to do through his assistant administrator privileges and start pulling files and that is an easy way to do it because it's passive collecting of those things in in less the other thing thing that he was able to use his system administrator privileges for is access to personal network drives apparently so he could and copy what was on colleagues drives because that was John in there are people who admitted to providing him with Password in the course of his duties he could use that password but he could also also use them for nefarious purposes to get more data and copy anything of interest one fascinating anecdote. Here is at some point two thousand twelve fellow system administrator. I noticed that his personal drive US significantly larger amount of memory than most other employees and ask him what he was doing. stunned responded. He was downloading system patches for an essay network a task that was consistent with job responsibilities and the next line is redacted so he's able to to kind of use his day to day job to mask mask the fact that he was actually stealing these moonlighting stealing these files right so just to clarify that last point someone saw him with a much fuller drive the normal all and asked him about it and he had a quick cover up essentially yeah yeah he was able to to brush it off and really the the most interesting thing in this report that it explains is they allege and this is this is mostly from an anti security fissile official which is what makes this document so interesting as a system administrator he did a lot of stuff in the back in and he devised a system where he was actually really had access to a nother machine he would basically go return to his old desk after hours allegedly to do some of this downloading us about a twenty minute drive away and so he's driving back and forth at night to his old desk and what they allege in this document is a he had his new job a didn't require them to visit that old building so this was another thing that he said well all. I can still get into the old building and that's the machine I need to pull the stuff out so he was just using that. The long and short of it is is that he took advantage of his systems. System's administrate is dry. Sims minister access. He took advantage of whatever access he got when he moved over to Booze Allen and he went and he used his old thin on thick machine. took advantage of this loophole that allowed him to go back at night and secretly steals these documents and he you know according to the hips report he removed an estimated demanded one point five million documents from the secure systems. You said Demean where your first discussing the story this could be considered the most notorious intelligence heist of all time in especially the fact that he essentially has gotten away. Hey Scott free for the most part but I know there's a financial implication. I'm not there are many. Will you talk about those as well. Maybe what this is cost cost. The United States estimated what what are the costs involved in what happened with Edward Snowden. There's a there are few different costs in terms of the cost of the resources spence by the NSA in the FBI in terms of trying to track him down and work in this case the NSA we know from the black budget that's known leaked and was published in The Washington Post that their budget by ten billion dollars a year and they we're moving resources around to do that so there's there's the cost of of that there is the cost of reputational damage to US companies after this because he's basically the people started thinking that the government could tap into your facebook that was like the simple person the symbol explanation that people would understand if they weren't really following the news that they I heard about it they thought that the government could get into all these companies which is not the case is nowhere close but these these big companies do have a law enforcement relationship so they took reputational damage and there was a great paper in February of two thousand seventeen he was updated by Microsoft Research Office and they kind of looked at all the existing estimates of how much money was lost and and they said that the the expected losses to the US cloud industry were at least eighteen and billion dollars. That's one kind of quantitative figure on it. This paper makes a really fascinating point in that for these individual companies. They had to spend money to harden encryption. They had to win the trust back of their customers and so they spent some money kind of investing to create more or solid structures and that's arguably a good thing the apple leading the way in terms of encrypted phones but he was forced Edward Snowden enforce the hand and then current day and looking now. There's the fascinating aspect of Wa while being a Chinese telecom companies. That's a the US alleges is very close to the Chinese the government and they're the lead the world's leading telecom equipment provider and so the worry is is that they could access other countries systems simply by having back doors wars and telecom equipment the US is fighting a very high stakes diplomatic kind of battle right now banning. Weiwei from the US and and trying to lobby allied governments did not use this in one of ways defenses against accusations is oh we'll just look at what Edward Snowden own and showed us the US government is is is the one doing this. We're not doing this so he's kind of used as a shield to deflect this this kind of criticism which is fascinating. You can't really quantify that but it it does have an effect on Commerce today which is one of the interesting long tail effects of snowing last question and this is your opinion that I'm asking skin is Edward Snowden a hero or a villain so sometimes as I think about a story that I wrote covering this in the summer two thousand thirteen and the headline is this is both a patriot and a traitor and I think that that story has aged pretty well the basic thesis of it was that he's a Patriot for exposing providing evidence of post nine nine eleven domestic surveillance activity that move the ball forward in terms of the conversation of post nine eleven abuses and there's that transparency argument. That's it's really there's a commendable part of of that in the reforms that have come out after that and then there's this other shoe about all the rest of the stuff and I'm I'm really ambivalent because I think that both of those things can be true. I think he's a very complicated figure and I'm interested in the you know that's why spent time in looking to the person because he was obviously very disgruntled again and again in his life and there was a certain anger in his actions and it seems from just an observational point of view that he stole information unrelated to civil liberties liberties of the things that would make him a whistle blower and so that he kind of goes beyond that in the the the question becomes how far beyond go and that's interesting question and I don't think it's going to answer yet so we could do you one of these episodes just on the the colorful words used by the true. Ha snowden 's alias on the ars Technica forums and between the years two thousand one in two thousand twelve and one one of my favorites is from June twelfth two thousand eight so this would be right before Edward Snowden turned twenty five and he's working for the at the time and he writes his own. He starts a forum post and it's titled Old Okay Okay. This is getting real. I had a vision and so the post reads I woke up this morning with a new name so I had a vision a dream vision a vision righteous and true before me I saw Gamers gamers shrouded in the glory of their true names step forth and assume your name in the Pantheon. It's always been there. Your avatars true name. It slips through your sub. Conscious reveal reveals reveals itself under your posts and flashed visibly in that moment of unrestrained spite in the indulgent teabag. You've felt it known net recognize it now realize it. I woke up this morning with a new name. That name is Wolf King Wealth King Awesome Fox and and this is just a really fun an interesting posted captures a lot of Edward Stones personality personality and even if you break down the etymology of of this name Wolf King Awesome Fox it has this kind of verizon to it it has this kind of illusions of grandeur to it and that's exactly who his personality was online so so you know people say that Edward Snowden is is real related to the true how that would be his alias but really Edwards stones true aliases aliases Wolf King Awesome Fox. How far beyond did snowden go only time will tell exactly but one thing is certain Edward Edward Snowden committed the most notorious intelligence heist in history and he got away unscathed. He's living in Moscow now and we'll be for for the foreseeable future as he said himself. He's an indoor cat so I wouldn't expect to see him outside anytime soon. The Art of the exit has produced by Yahoo Finance at our studios in New York City. This episode was written edited and produced by Me Aleks SOG. Thank you to Michael B Kellie for your time and walking through all the details of the SNOWDEN story. If you enjoyed this episode please head over to Apple podcasts and leave us a five star rating and review their share the story with your friends. We'll be back soon with another new episode so until then thank you for listening to the art of the exit.

Edward Edward Snowden snowden United States NSA Edward Snowden Hong Kong Yahoo Finance Moscow Michael CIA reporter apple Michael B official South China Morning Post Maryland FBI North Carolina UN
Edward Snowden: The complicated man behind an epic heist

The Art of the Exit

32:19 min | 11 months ago

Edward Snowden: The complicated man behind an epic heist

"Edward Snowden hero overland well. It's possible to be a bit of both in June June of two thousand thirteen. Edward Snowden was working a contract job as a systems administrator for the NSA in his time there he allegedly stole will one point five million classified files from the NSA he then flew to Hong Kong where he met with journalists and provided documents which detailed abuses abuses by both the NSA and its partners these journalists took that information and published story after story which sent shockwaves through the Internet and the world a few days later snowden identified himself as an American whistleblower and caught a flight to Moscow a few weeks later where he lives is to this day. This story has countless layers of complexity was he a hero or a traitor was snowden protecting the privacy rights of his fellow citizens or did he have ulterior motives behind the curtain. Wall kind of person was snowden before the leaks and what will this end up costing posting the United States when it's all said and done this is the story of Edward Snowden the man behind the biggest information heist in history story from Yahoo Finance. This is the art of the exit. I'm Alex. You're early on the scene with Snowden so maybe tell me what was going on with you your writing about the whole situation. You also uncovered a lot as it was starting to progress. Maybe just tell L. Your story. The snowden leaks came at a great time for me professionally and personally in the sense that as a young reporter at business insider I was interested in national security and I was interested in specifically domestic spying so when Snowden came out it. It really hit directly on my beat. This is Michael B Kellie my colleague Yahoo Finance. He's an expert on the Snowden case and agreed to help tell the story and so I covered it immediately and then something interesting happened in the League started on about on June fifth two thousand thirteen and he identified himself on June ninth Hong Kong time then two days later after he identifies himself Edward Snowden American whistle lar- he gives an interview with the South China Morning Post he also provides documents to that reporter Lana Lamb and those those documents were actually detailed operations against China as opposed to domestic surveillance activities of of the NSA which was is the big kind of reveal of snow documents when he gave that interview saying I have more documents. I have to go through the mall. I did not provide these documents to journalists before four in the actual details of the documents were foreign intelligence operations the US against China it piqued my interest in a different way and when I asked an expert cyber expert who'd worked with NATO to put together the international rule book called the talent manual for cyber operations he said Yeah and Snowden revealed to dispatch. I'm wearing post is just spying. It's just an updated version of espionage. That's been going going on forever but now the technology is much better at that point my mind kind of went on parallel tracks where it was obvious that the early snowden leaks had exposed something that was important for American society and start a privacy discussion that continues to this day. There is also this aspect aspect of well. Why is he also leaking this information that doesn't really have that same public interest in in mind and it really is only helpful to the people he's leaking inobound namely the Chinese government and even Glenn Greenwald all two's the the main and most aggressive journalists on the snowden case in who one of the the three journalists that snowden really work within provided documents since two he was asked by a reporter at the time and he said yeah basically paraphrasing that that if he had to guess who would be that was trying to ingratiate himself to the people of Hong Kong and the authorities and that in itself is a recognition that that snowden was no longer acting out of altruism he was a very selfish act in the sense that he was trying to to save himself from being caught by authorities handed over gouges and so that that added an extra element to the story so was everybody else sings divergence like you said these two parallel tracks trains of thought almost like he's a good guy on one side and in a bad guy on the other side or is that unique to something you noticed than maybe others had there weren't that many people who noticed it if you speak to former government officials officials at at the time they certainly noticed it they knew the difference between those two pieces of Information William Binnie any who was a mathematician at the NSA for thirty years. He ended up quitting right after nine eleven because he believed that there were abuses being committed. E actually came out after are snow leaked that information to the South China and post and said well. He's transitioning from a whistleblower to a traitor which is is a pretty wild statement in a couple years later. I actually asked Bill Binney about that statement and he said when pressed he said that he stood by that statement well and he's kind of a hero to Snowden so that's it's a fascinating aspect but for the most part in two thousand thirteen those leaks the initial ones really just rocked. Everyone and they kept coming there. was there was a really really good story developing which was ever snowed in the whistle blower the champion of privacy and everyone's freedoms that that was really the dominant story so this subtexts that there is this other element to it didn't really catch on at the time that subtexts. Michael's referring two has become the most interesting part of the story to me when looking at motives it always just comes down to the person who was Edward Snowden before four he began handing over those documents well see a brave Patriot willing to put his whole life on the line to create more transparency in the US or is there something else behind these actions the only way to get any clear direction as to look snow's life before the leaks. Why don't you tell me what you know about him. What made Edward Snowden the way he is yeah that that's a really fascinating part of the story and and it it's a different part of the story but it's it's part of the story that becomes important when evaluating intent. Why does anyone do anything and you know we are the end of all the actions that we've taken before now and we are created by the context in which we grew up and was born in Nineteen eighty-three so depending on where you put the cut off a millennial. He's is right there. He's he's one of the original digital natives. He liked computers. he was very good at it. He t took to it very well. he grew up in North Carolina for a time lived not far from Fort Mead where the NSA is based EGR opening of government family is mother works for the courts. His father worked in the the Coast Guard. He had a tough teen years. He dropped out of high school when he was about fifteen and he says because he got mono and just didn't go back his parents got divorced when he was seventeen going on eighteen and he was basically at that point on socializing mostly on the Internet on these ars technica forms so the first time he logged on December of two thousand and one over the next ten plus years he is on on and off but on those forms his last post is right before he allegedly started stealing documents. You learn a lot about his personality. He calls himself an indoor cat but now and he lives in Moscow because he's just computer all the time Gotcha. You said one thing that I want to kind of dig at when he dropped out of high school because is he claimed to have motto. You say that saying like we a lot of people get mono and it doesn't take them out of high school. Necessarily what do you think was the the real story. They're like what what caused that. You think it's impossible to say based on what we're going on in terms of these are these online artifacts of his posts online. He rails against institutional schooling. He doesn't like the system. He never liked system. Whatever system he's in in the first time we see that is through the school system so yeah. It's true that you know almost everyone knows people who had mono in high school and those people didn't drop out so ah it suggests that there was a larger context there and it becomes interesting for Edward Snowden his life because a lot of times medical reasons become so important at different stages so he joined the Special Forces training program and this is right around when the Iraq war is really heating up and he did he basically washed out but he says that he broke both of his legs in a training accident accident so there's another medical reason for him to leave this institution this different institition people haven't hasn't his medical records haven't been published because that's a privacy thing but the official reason for him leaving was an administrative discharge wasn't a medical discharge and and if you talk to form officials that's kind of a big difference right so and and even even if you would have broken his legs if he wanted to stay in the the program he could have just like if you get mono in high school and you want to stay in highschool there are there are ways that they can accommodate even in the military tearing right and famous most famously win he left the NSA Hawaii to go to Hong Kong with all his documents. He told his boss that he had to go to a doctor because he had epilepsy so there's another medical reason to leave an institution but that was actually sleep just as cover story said he he'd get a few days time lead time to go to Hong Kong. This is a something that's repeated itself pattern in in his story. We spoke a little beforehand and you said something interesting that I I wanted to kind of talk about too because clearly he was in. He was online like you said an indoor cat even back then but he also interests in gaming right. Wasn't that part like He. He was an arcade visitor. Yeah he's he talks about the arcade in Maryland. He's really big into tech and one of the the Internet pages that he was on he put his occupation as Tekken and you you know he's on all these different threads but over the years he's consistently on video game threads whether it's arcade talks about tech and he talks about dance dancer. Lucien another arcade game but he's also on console games about metal gear solid two and he's definitely a Gamer of the times with his presence online was that generally positive was just talking to friends talking about gaming gaming. Were there other sides to the story of other than just being teenager young young kid talking to your buddies about video games online yeah that that's an interesting question particularly in this day and age when you have people celebrities where they're what they said in public before four is basically being mind and brought back up and used against them in certain ways and was snowden yeah. There's there's an element of he's a young Guy and there's obviously a bit of anger in him and so he's just kind of throwing words around and as a lot of young men undo but he also stands out within this community of mostly men as being pretty aggressive you know now it's up to each individual person to chocolate up either as a young is just boys will be boys kind of thing but that kind of response doesn't resonate as much as it did even a few years ago so there are some fascinating examples of him saying that him being discussion and responding to someone's argument as factory and another. Yucel user will push back and say you know. Factories hate speech you oh you should this is a pointless conversation about X. men. You don't need to be a bringing in these terms in which is double all down and saying oh I quote I had no idea ours had such a thriving population of militant homosexuals so really playing that up you know at the time he's twenty three years old so it makes me think that when I was twenty three years old was I speaking like that. No I wasn't online like that either but it makes it interesting that he kind of has this history himself of of you know words he used that we can evaluate within the context of the time. Maybe walk me through what's what's going on with him while he's in his contract the one where he's actually beginning to gather information maybe right before he actually starts stealing or when he says says he starts stealing at one point he said when I think he was to NBC he said that when he washed out of the army special forces versus program he had to find another way to serve he got a job at a facility on the campus of University of Maryland as a security guard in his actually area. It's a a kind of language school and says technically a dod facility and he's basically an essay security guard working the night shift for a few months and he had to go through the security clearance process and then he worked as as the security guard for for five months or so and when he left that job he he took with him a very valuable thing which is a security clearance and so once you had a security clearance he's he's basically known to the system and so he applied reportedly at a job fair he he applied to the CIA and got picked up despite not having having traditional schooling. I was GONNA say dropped out of high school. It's pretty wild that he was able to to land such a great job with you know yeah and you know it it depends he asked some formula officials say that he had to have some poll like ask his grandfather who was a rear admiral who had worked on joint task force with the CIA and FBI and was connected or Mike Morale the former acting director CIA in his book says that Post nine eleven eleven the CIA needed telecommunications analysts they needed people and it's clear that snowed indefinitely new computers and definitely knew this stuff so wherever you fall on that spectrum he got hired by the CIA basically throughout his time at the CIA we know from interviews with his superiors they were pushing pushing a declassified assessment in in December two thousand sixteen he was basically clashing with superiors from from the beginning of this training program he thought that his he knew better than his superiors in certain ways and he had this habit of a C- seen people much higher on the food chain okay and this is another trend of Edward Snowden in like the medical thing he he did this several times times in his time in the CIA and the NSA where so he's bringing in the boss's boss's boss at that point he according to this assessment he seed and someone who is the head of the CIA directorate overseeing what he's doing and it put that per- that person was was one of a couple dozen highest CIA officials and he he was a trainee but he thought that the situation wasn't being handled well so he was going to see someone who he thought could handle it memo written in September two thousand eight hours. Where's Sloan. CIA Superior described as energetic officer with a plethora of experience on Microsoft operating systems well also quote often does not positively respond to advice from senior officers does not recognize the chain of command often demonstrates a lack of maturity and it does not appear to be embracing the CIA culture Snowden life has clear patterns he struggled with insistems and pushed back against authority as Michael mentioned slowdowns antagonistic online personality along with his struggles with superiors at work. Give a snapshot into what he was like. Now is is that proof that he is a villain without a heart no but it is proof that he could be a very difficult man to be around and that he had problems living within within a system the he didn't control after the break we go through the details of how snowden was stealing information and what this case ended ended up costing the United States snowden is said to have stolen around one point five million classified files from the NSA before fleeing Hong Kong. I asked Michael. How exactly was able to do it without being noticed. I WanNa know how snowden was just doing this like I. I I kinda picture. He's head to the office. He's like has pockets full of hard drives and he's just like plugging them into computers theaters left and right and just stealing stuff. That's silly and probably an UN realistic idea what was going on. Can you tell me how practically he was taking taking these these files in these documents yes so it definitely wasn't as presented in the Oliver Stone Film where he kind of just had had one thumb drive and he stuck it in for a few minutes and then put it in a Rubik's cube and walked out this was pretty systematic the way that it was described to me by people acknowledge the matter was that he was clever. It wasn't it you know people use as the word hack but he really used a few work arounds and he was smart about what work arounds he had and the access that he had for him to devise a system that worked for him and the best we know about this is from the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. They're released a report in in late. Two Thousand Sixteen being basically a review of the disclosures they say here that he's several methods to gather the information as they do with the tone of this document they add quote none of which required advanced computer skills and I think that's kind of an unnecessary jab. I think this was pretty smart. People who are experts said that this was clever lever so sure it didn't require full state level style hacking as we would think of it but this was pretty clever so what what he did was part of his job was to collect files and move them and so one of the basic things he do was a just a scraping keeping tool that allowed him to collect a bunch of files which was he was able to do through his system administrator privileges and start pulling files and that is an and easy way to do it because it's passive collecting of those things in in less the other thing that he was able to use his system administrator privileges for is access to personal network drives apparently so he could and copy what was on colleagues drives because that was part of his John and there are people who admit it into providing him with a password in the course of his duties he could use that password but he could also use them for nefarious purposes to get more data and copy anything of interest interest one fascinating anecdote here is at some point two thousand twelve a fellow system administrator noticed that his personal drive us significantly larger amount of memory than most other employees ask him when he was doing as respondent he was downloading system patches for NSA network a task that was consistent with job responsibilities and then the next line is redacted so he's able to to kind of use his day to day job to mask the fact that he was actually stealing these moonlighting stealing these files so just to it clarify that last point someone saw him with a much fuller drive the normal and asked him about it and he had a quick cover up essentially yeah yeah he was able to to brush it off and really the the most interesting thing in this report that it explains is they allege edge and this is this is mostly from an essay security fissile official which is what makes this document so interesting as a system administrator he did a lot of stop on the back end and he devised a system where he was actually had access to another machine he would basically go return to his old desk after hours allegedly to do some of this downloading us about a twenty minute drive away and so he's driving back and forth at night to his old desk and what they allege in this document is a he had his a new job. didn't require them to visit old building so this was another thing that he said well. I can still get into the old building and that's the machine. I need to pull the stuff out so he was just using that. The long short of it is is that he took advantage of a systems administrator systems administrator access. He took ED vantage of whatever access he got when he moved over to Booze Allen and he win booz-allen he used his old thin on thick machine machine took advantage of this loophole that allowed him to go back at night and secretly steal these documents and he according according to the himse report he removed an estimated one point five million documents from the secure systems you said to me and where your first discussing the story this could be considered the most notorious intelligence terrance heist of all time in especially the fact that he essentially has gotten away. Scot free for the most part but I know there's a financial implication. I know there are many. Will you talk about those as well. Maybe what this is cost. The United States estimated what what are the costs involved in and what happened with Edward Snowden. Yeah there's a there are a few different costs in terms of there's the cost of the resources spent inspire the NSA in the FBI in terms of trying to track him down and work this case the NSA. We know from the black budget. That's known meeting was published in The Washington Post that their budgets by ten billion dollars a year in a We're moving resources around to do that so there's there's the cost of of that there is the cost of reputational damage to US companies after this because he's basically people started thinking that the US government could tap into your facebook that was like the simple person the symbol explanation that people would understand if they weren't really following the news that they'd heard about it. They thought that the US government could get into all these companies which is not the case ace is nowhere close but these these big tech companies do have a law enforcement relationship so they took reputational damage and there was a great paper in the February of two thousand seventeen he was updated by Microsoft Research Office and they kinda look did all the existing estimates of how much money was lost and and and they said that the the expected losses to the US cloud industry where at least eighteen billion dollars. That's one kind of quantitative figure on it. This paper makes a really fascinating point in that for these individual companies. They had to spend money to harden encryption. They had to win the trust back of their customers customers and so they spent money kind of investing to create more solid structures in that's arguably a good thing the apple leading the way in terms of encrypted phones but he was forced. Edward Snowden forced the hand and then current day and looking now. There's the fascinating aspect of Wa wa the way being a Chinese telecom companies. That's the US alleges is very close to the Chinese government and they're the lead the world's leading telecom equipment provider and so the worry is is that they could access other countries systems simply by having back doors and their telecom equipment the the US is is fighting a very high high stakes diplomatic kind of battle right now banning away from the US and trying to lobby governments to not use this in one of Weiwei's defenses against US accusations is oh well just look at what Edward Snowden and showed us the US government is is is the one doing this. We're not doing doing this so he's kind of used as a shield to deflect this kind of criticism which is fast and you can't really quantify that but it it does have an effect on commerce today which is kind of one of the interesting long tail effects of snowing last question and this is your opinion that I'm asking is Edward Snowden a hero or a Villain Ellen so sometimes I think about a story that I wrote covering this in the summer summer two thousand thirteen and the headline is Edward. Snowden is both a Patriot and a traitor and and I think that that story has aged pretty well the basic thesis of it was that he's a Patriot for exposing providing evidence silence of post nine nine eleven domestic surveillance activity that move the ball forward in terms of the conversation of post nine eleven abuses and there's that transparency transparency argument. That's it's really there's a commendable part of of that in the reforms that have come out after that and then there's this other shoe about all the rest of the stuff and I'm really ambivalent because I think that both of those things can be true through. I think he's a very complicated figure and I'm interested in you know that's why I spent time looking into the person because he was obviously very disgruntled. Build again and again in his life and there was a certain anger in his actions and it seems from just an observational point of view that that he stole information unrelated to civil liberties of the things that would make him a whistle blower and so that that kind of goes beyond that in the the the question becomes how far beyond it to go and that's an interesting question. I don't think it's been answered yet so we could do one of these episodes. Just on the the the colorful words used by the true hoo-ha Snowden alias on the ars Technica Forms uh-huh between the years two thousand one in two thousand twelve and one of my favorites is from June twelfth. Two thousand has an eight so this would be right before Edward Snowden turned twenty five and he's working for the CIA at the time and he writes his own. He starts a forum post and it's titled Okay Okay. This is getting real. I had a vision and so the post reads. I woke up this morning with a new name. I had a vision a dream vision a vision righteous and true true before me I saw Gamers gamers shrouded in the glory of their true names step forth and assume your name in the Pantheon. It's it's always been there. Your avatars true name it slips through your sub conscious. Brazil reveals itself under your posts and flashed visibly in that moment point of unrestrained spite in the indulgent teabag. You've felt known it recognize it now realize it. I woke up this morning with a new name. That name is Wolfgang Wolf King Awesome Fox and this is. It's just a really fun on an interesting posted captures a lot of Edward Stones a personality and even if you break down the Etima at Amal of of this name Wolf King Awesome Fox it has this kind of voracious nece to it it has this kind of illusions of grandeur to in and that's exactly who his personality was online so you know people say that Edward Snowden is related related to the true how that would be his alias but really every stone is true aliases Wolfgang Awesome Fox aw aw how far beyond did snowden go so only time will tell exactly but one thing is certain Edward Snowden committed the most notorious intelligence heist in history and he got away unscathed. He's living in Moscow now and we'll be for the foreseeable future as he said himself. He's an an indoor cat so I wouldn't expect to see him outside anytime soon. The Art of the exit is produced by Yahoo Finance at our studios in New York City. This episode was written edited wanted and produced by Me Aleks AG- thank you to Michael B Kellie for your time walking us through all the details of the SNOWDEN story. If you enjoyed this episode please head over to Apple podcasts and leave us a five star rating and review their share the story with your friends. We'll be back soon with another new episode so until then Dan. Thank you for listening to the art of the exit.

Edward Snowden NSA United States Hong Kong CIA Moscow Yahoo Finance reporter apple Michael ars Michael B Chinese government South China Morning Post Maryland FBI official North Carolina South China
Best Of: Edward Snowden / Journalist Andrea Mitchell

Fresh Air

50:59 min | 11 months ago

Best Of: Edward Snowden / Journalist Andrea Mitchell

"Support for NPR and the following message come from comcast through Internet essentials comcast has connected more than eight million people from low income households to high speed Internet most for the first time more at comcast corporation dot com slash Internet essentials from whyy in Philadelphia. I'm Terry gross with fresh air weekend today. Edward Snowden the former national security agency contractor who leaked documents to journalists that revealed the US government's comprehensive domestic surveillance program at and T. stores phone records now for people in the United States going all the way back to nineteen eighty eighty seven if you've got kids yourself or born after nineteen eighty-seven they have every phone call to ever made also Andrea Mitchell chief foreign affairs correspondent in for NBC News and Anchor of her own. MSNBC show looks back on her career. Mitchell is known for asking powerful people tough questions sometimes shouting outing the questions misdemeanor you short duration will be strong slide Murkowski. Did you have to learn how to have a really big voice. I don't think I don't I UH-HUH and Justin Chang of us. The new film Ad Astra support for this podcast and the following message come from state farm. WHO's agents know that in your car and home are more than just big purchases. There are a big part of your life. You put the time into making them your own so now it's time to protect them with your own own personal state farm agents not only do they truly get you but they'll be therefore you when you need them and with over nineteen thousand agents in neighborhoods across the US us there could be one just around the corner more at state farm dot com or one eight hundred state farm state farm here to help life go right deprive. AC- advocates our guest Edward Snowden is a hero a whistle blower who exposed abuses by government intelligence agencies to others. He's a traitor leader who exposed national security secrets snowden was an IT systems expert working under contract for the National Security Agency in twenty thirteen when when he provided three journalists with thousands of top secret documents about US intelligence agencies surveillance of American citizens the revelations made snowden a wanted man accused of violating the espionage act they also led to changes in the laws and standards governing US intelligence agencies and the practices of US US technology companies which now encrypt much of their web traffic for security snowden has lived for the past six years in Russia out of the reach of American law aw he's written a new memoir about his life and his experiences in the intelligence community. It's called permanent record snowden spoke to fresh air's Davies from from his apartment in Moscow via an Internet connection will Edward Snowden. Welcome to fresh air. I want to begin with the suspicion that some have have that you are. A tool of the Russian government. Were collaborating with Russia since this happened in twenty thirteen. We've seen you know the Russian interference interference in the US election. It's collaboration according to the Muller report with wikileaks and getting stolen emails to affect the election and I think there's just just a general belief that in this authoritarian state Edward snowden wouldn't be able to live for six years unless he were useful to the Russian government. What's it's the general answer to that. I think this is for a lot of people who have sort of Hollywood understanding of how international fairs and intelligence works but the reality is even in the case of as you said electoral interference in the case of wikileaks the Muller report the United States government itself never alleges that for example wikileaks even knew that they were talking to Russian intelligence wikileaks entire system is designed so they don't know who is submitting documents and even granting that they came. I'm from Russian intelligence that that wasn't fact the case every newspaper in the world thought these were newsworthy stories the times the Washington Post everybody was reporting putting on this and when you look beyond sort of the standard examples that we look at the case of electoral interference and we looked toward my case ace there is that question if he's not cooperating with the Russian government. Why would he be allowed to stay and I think the answer here is actually quite obvious. Yes Russia doesn't need to do anything or rather the Russian government doesn't need to do anything to look good in this circumstance it shows they have an independent foreign policy to their public because I applied to all these other countries in Europe or asylum and all of their governments unfortunately could be threatened to revoke their expressions of support and this happened. This is a long and well reported campaign where every time a country started to lean towards letting me Dan it would be either the secretary of state or the vice president of the United States call their foreign ministry and say look if you let this guy in we're going to retaliate and Russians nations are very much consider themselves to a European country so if the rest of Europe is afraid to do something and Russia is not afraid to do something that makes Russians I feel good and remember we did this reverse some Russia and the Soviet Union for the last fifty years so of course if we have an example sample or an instance where the whole world sees basically the United States government is not living up to its values. The Russian government is going to be very eager. You're just underline that that's all they need. Do receive any financial support from the Russian government. No no this is one of the things that that again is a common misconception people sort of think about my life. They think I'm living in a bunker. There's rushing guards the Russian government then I have any contact whatsoever. They're paying me now. I have my own apartment. I have my own income. I live a fully independent life. I have never will will never accept money your housing or any other assistance from the Russian government you didn't exactly have typical adolescence. You ended up spending nights on the computer school. Not of great interest to you you tell the story of looking at the website of the Los Alamos National Laboratory to the did all this nuclear research and discovering that anybody with little understanding of Computers Directory Systems could get internal memos memos. You looked at confidential memos that were just available. You call the general number the lab and left a message and said this is a problem. You eventually got a callback. Tell us about that so my mother gets a little bit of a rude awakening because she's making dinner and I'm I'm sitting in the living room on this computer and she picks up the phone and says Yes yes here and she turns and looks at me and as I see her hearing the other side of the call I can't hear on her face just gets Pale and she looks at me and her eyes grow wide in. She covers the receiver and she says why can't you tell and win. I get out of my chair and pick up the phone and this this man says I'm from Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratory. These these are the sweetest words anyone could have told me in because I'm like. Oh thank God because I had left that message because I had called them because I hadn't really done on anything wrong. I had simply been curious as a boy scout had called this facility and said Hey. There's something broken on your website. You should do something about that. My Mother did not not punish me for this. In fact she was very proud of the fact that I told them they had weakness and their website and Los Alamos for all things once they realized I was a child mile. I think they've been expecting someone older. They said when I turned eighteen I should McCall. You had a lot of jobs in the intelligence community you were actually a CIA a officer in Geneva for a while you ended up in Tokyo after that and then Hawaii and you write that the material Israel that you distributed to journalists ultimately documented and array of abuses so diverse that nobody was ever in a position to know all of them to really to found out even a fraction you had to go looking and what set you looking was an assignment to do a presentation about China. You want to explain doing this so yeah. I'm invited to give a presentation about how China is hacking the United States. intelligence services defense contractors contractors anything that we have available in the network which I know a little bit about but not not that much about because they have the person who's supposed to be giving the presentation drop opt out so I go looking. I use my network access to pull all the slide decks all of the presentation all the training. That's previously been given. I pull all of the recent reporting on what's happening work late into the night. Seeing what exactly is it. The China is doing what are their capabilities are they hacking acking are they doing domestic surveillance doing international surveillance what is occurring and. I'm just shocked by the extent of their capabilities. I'm appalled by the aggression with which they use them but also in a strange way a surprised by the openness with which they use them. They're not hiding it. They're just opened out there saying thing yeah. We're doing this yeah. You know we're hacking. What are you going to do about it and I think this is a distinction ham. I think yes the NSA spying of course they're spying but we're only spying overseas. We're not spying on our guys at home. We wouldn't do that. We have firewalls. We have trip wires for people to hit but surely these are only only affecting terrorists because we're not like China but this plants the first seeds doubt where I see if the capabilities there perhaps somewhere hidden deep even even inside the United States government the appetite for how they can use these capabilities remains the same right so you explore or further and what do you discover about what the NSA is actually doing so over the final years of my career I see that we have the same capabilities as the Chinese government and we are applying them domestically just as they are we have an internal strategy at the NSA which was never publicly vowed but it was all over their top secret internal slides that said the aspiration was to collect all what this means means was. They were not just collecting an intercepting communications from criminals spies. Terrorists people have intelligence value. They were collecting on everyone everywhere all the time. I am just in case because you never know what's going to be interesting and if you miss it when it's passing by you might not get another chance and so what happened was every time we wrote an email. Every time you type something into that Google search box every time your phone moved you send a text message. You made a phone call. Increasingly the United States government without giving the public of so we weren't allowed to know this as a public but in secret the boundaries of the fourth amendment were being changed. This was without even the vast majority members of Congress knowing about it and this is when I start to think about. Maybe we need to know about this. Maybe Congress knew about this. Maybe if the courts knew about this yes we would not have the same policies as the Chinese government. We're listening to the interview fresh. Air's Dave Davies recorded with Edward Snowden. His new memoir is called permanent record. We'll talk more after a break and Justin Chang will review ad Astra the New Science Fiction Drama starring Brad Pitt. I'm Terry Gross and this is fresh fresh air weekend. This message comes from NPR sponsor on star. If you're ever facing vehicle theft on star can help with stolen vehicle slowdown and Onstar divisor can work with law enforcement to help locate slowdown and recover stolen vehicle quicker and safer onstar be safe out. There requires selects paid plan cell reception. GPS signal and working electrical system doesn't prevent theft damage or loss details on STAR DOT COM. Let's get back to the interview fresh. Air's Dave Davies recorded with Edward Snowden a former. It systems manager who worked under contract for the National Security Agency Eighty in two thousand thirteen he gave three journalists access to thousands of classified documents describing US intelligence agencies surveillance of American citizens businnes snowden spoke today through an Internet connection from his apartment in Moscow. So I WANNA talk about your decision to release these access to many documents to three journalists and just talk about why you took the course you did and why some critics say you had other options. One thing people full say is look. There's a system. There are inspector general's offices of each of these agencies. Why couldn't you go to them. Well this is. This is a great question. for for one we've never seen the inspector general's office actually being effective safeguard for the constitution itself we have had since. I came forward one of the inspector general employees. I believe the deputy inspector general for the NSA comportment. If snowden had come to me. I would've explained to him his misconceptions about how these programs work how these things are in fact legal how these things are in fact constitutional and maybe he wouldn't have had do this this at all the inspector general is a great resource to have if someone is a middle manager and they're engaged in sexual sure harassment or they are embezzling or something of that nature but if you have a criminal conspiracy inside not just the leadership of the NSA say but but in fact in the White House that is run by the vice president's own lawyer in the Bush Administration Dick Cheney had a lawyer named David Addington who said building this mass surveillance system. The very first instance was legal when in fact he knew that was not the case. What do you do this is asking you the hens ah to sort of report the Fox's misbehavior to the Fox himself and I WANNA point out just just real quickly. That is not a contention that these programs were illegal that these programs were likely on constitutional. That's not my assertion. That is the assertion of the very first federal court ruling of Judge Leon Liane in the wake of these disclosures prior to the revelations of mass surveillance in two thousand thirteen. The government ace said these things weren't happening be if they were happening. They were legal and see. Why are you even asking about this. In the first place the description in the book of how you worked through how you were going to release this material material and how you contacted the journalist and provided it is really fascinating. We won't have time to go into it here but I wanNA talk to you about some of the specific arrangements humaid you three journalists were provided with access to thousands of documents that you had what conditions did you impose was on their use. What did you tell the journalists about what they could do and not do when we look at what happened what produced this system of checks and balances failed and so if I come forward myself and said look this is wrong. This is a violation of the constitution. I'm the president of secrets and I'm going to decide what the public needs. No and I just throw it out on the internet which wouldn't be hard for me. I'm a technologist done this afternoon. There's a risk implied in now. What if I was wrong. What if I didn't understand these things what what if it was in fact legal or constitutional these programs were effective rather than as I believed ineffective which later was confirmed by the Obama Administration. These programs weren't aren't saving lives. They heads intelligence value but they didn't have a public safety value. At least that was meaningful so what I did was I try to reconstruct the system of checks and balances by using myself to provide documents to the journalists but never to publish them myself. People don't realize this but I never made public a single document. I trusted that role to the journalists. Decide with public did and did not need to know before the journalists published these stories. They had to go to the government. This was a condition that I require them to do and tell. The government warned them. They're about to run this story about this program and the government could argue against publication say you've got it wrong long or you've got it right but if you publish this is going to hurt somebody. I never case. I'm aware of that. Process was followed and that's why in two thousand nineteen we've never ever seen any evidence at all presented by the government that someone's been harmed as a result of these stories. That's why I believe these. Stories won the Pulitzer surprise for for public service. It's because there is a way that you can maximize the public benefit of love a free press and aggressively contesting the government's monopoly on information at the same time mitigating the risks of even a very large disclosure of documents by simply making sure that you trust the right people the right sector of society with the right system them to keep everyone honest because all of us work better together than we do alone. I will say that on that question of whether this has has harmed American interest or put people in danger there was an AP story last year which quarter spokesman for the national counterintelligence and Security Center as saying snowden disclosed posed documents have put US personnel or facilities at risk around the world and damaged intelligence collection efforts exposed to tools used to amass intelligence et Cetera they wrong. They are wrong look. I can't correct six years of lives in sixty seconds but when you look at all of those claims they're always merely allegations. The government has never put forward any evidence and they have investigated me for six years so has basically every other government on the plane clean and you a journalist know better than anyone else that the government aggressively leaks when it's in its favor so you can look at this. White House right now with these kind of if disclosures of classified information just hard stop caused damage if they created risks for us US personnel programs three quarters of the White House would be in prison right now. They're not because the vast majority of leaks while they are uncomfortable while they are embarrassing arcing or sometimes beneficial to government far more is classified than actually needs to be so yes. The government has has made those allegations and they will continue to make those allegations but look the thing that we always have to ask is what is the evidence to back that assertion and they've never provided that and I'm quite confident they never will because it didn't happen. You fully expected to be identified. You eventually at identified yourself to explain your motives as you were planning this. What kind of future did you envision for yourself. The likeliest outcome from hands down was that I'd spend the rest of my life in an orange jumpsuit but in present yes but that was a that was a risk that I had to take so now now. You're you've been in Moscow for six years. Lindsay milt has joined you. You are now married. you live in a two bedroom apartment. What kind of security precautions do you take. You didn't want to go to a studio for this thing for this interview right. You're pretty careful right yeah well. I run my own studio because you know people blast how I make my living and I give lectures I speak publicly for the American Program Bureau and Places Book May to speak about the future of cybersecurity. What's happening what surveillance conscience whistle blowing but I do you know I've I've never been the nightclub type a little bit of an indoor cat whether other I lived in Maryland or New York or Geneva or Tokyo or Moscow. I'll always spend the majority of my time looking into a screen so yeah while I'm out on the street. I try not to be recognized. I also live on much more open life now than I did back in twenty thirteen because it seems consensus has resolved that anyone who tries to kill me is only going to prove my point as somebody who's knows does a lot about the kind of information that can be gleaned from a cell phone. I'm wondering what precautions you take with your own cell phone use first off. I try not to use one as as much as possible and when I do use use a cellphone that I've myself modified it performed surgery on it. I opened up with special tools and I use a soldering iron to remove the microphone and I disconnect the camera so that the phone can't simply listen to me when sitting there at it physically has no microphone and when I need to make a call I just connect connect an external microphone the headphone Jack Right and this way the phone works for you rather than you working for the phone. I'm you need to be careful about the software software. You put on your phone. You need to be careful about connections. It's making because today most people they've got a thousand APPs on their phones. It's sitting there on your desk right now or in your hand. The screen green can be off but it's connecting hundreds or thousands of times a second if you some of your audience is listening to this on podcasts right now through for example your buds they know their screen can be turned off. It can be sitting writing in their pocket along with them. They don't even have to be looking at the phone but it's still very much active and this is the core core problem of the data issue that we're dealing with today. We're passing laws that are trying to regulate the use of data. We're trying to regulate the protection data but all of these things presume that the data has already been collected what we need to be doing is we need to be regulated to collection of data because our phones owns. Our devices are laptops even just driving down the street with all of these systems that surround us. Today is producing records about our alive. It's the modern pollution it is invisible but it's still harms us. Let me ask you one other question. You've lived in Russia for six years now. Do you see yourself making making a life there or do you hope to come home someday. A my ultimate goal will always be to return to the United States and I've actually had conversations with the government last in the Obama Administration about what that would look like and they said you know you should come and face trial and I said sure sign me up under one condition edition. I have to be able to tell the jury why I did what I did and the jury has to decide. Was this justified or unjustified. This is called a public interest defense and is allowed under pretty much every crime someone can be charged for murder for example has defenses it can be the self defense and so on so forth it could be manslaughter instead of first degree murder but in the case of telling a journalist the the truth about how the government was breaking the law the government says there can be no defense. There can be no justification for why you did it. The only thing the jury gets to consider is. Did you tell journalists something. You were not allowed to tell them if yes it doesn't matter. Why did you go to jail and I have said as soon as you guys say four whistleblowers it is the jury who decides if it was right or along to expose the government's own lawbreaking? I'll be in court the next day. Unfortunately the Attorney General at the time sent back a letter her saying you know that that sounds great but all we can do for you right now as we will promise not to torture you so. I'd say negotiations are still Lalla going although you haven't actually negotiated since the Obama Administration right right right we're we're waiting for their call. The ball is very much in the government's Court Edward Snowden. Thanks so much for speaking with us. Thank you for having me. Edward Snowden spoke to fresh air's Dave Davies from his apartment in Moscow Akao snowden. His new memoir is called permanent record. Their interview is recorded Tuesday morning soon after the news broke that the US Justice Department filed suit suit to recover all proceeds from snowden book alleging that he violated nondisclosure agreements by not letting the Government Review The manuscript before publication Snowden is attorney. Ben Wizner said in a statement that the book contains no government secrets that have not previously been published by respected news organizations wins and that the government's pre publication review system is under court challenge the new science fiction drama Ad Astra Stars Brad Pitt as an astronaut who sets out on a dangerous voyage to the outer reaches of the Solar System. It's the latest picture from the writer Director James Gray whose earlier movies include we own the night to lovers and the lost city of Z are film critic it Justin Chang says ad Astra is a space odyssey that sometimes stumbles but ultimately source the title of Ad Astra James Gray's gorgeous muddled donald and weirdly entrancing space epic is a Latin phrase that means to the stars. It's a fitting name for a movie set in the not so distant future. We're we're space. Travel has become evermore advanced. Even as planet earth is in peril electrical storms are wreaking havoc throughout the solar system and the fate of humanity rests on the shoulders of skilled astronaut named Major Roy McBride played by a quietly soulful Brad Pitt Roy is a man of swift action few words and great inner calm in one heroin early action scene a high altitude explosion sends him falling to earth and his pulse barely accelerates as he deploys his parachute. Roy Moore comfortable floating in the vast sterile emptiness of outer space and he is on on solid ground where he has to deal with the messy -ness of feelings and relationships he recently split from his wife who was fed up with his workaholic and emotional detachment -ment ruin inherited both those qualities from his father Clifford McBride a legendary astronaut who vanished twenty nine years ago on a deep space mission in search each of intelligent life but one day Roy is called in by two top generals who have some startling news for him about the source of the electrical storms known as the surge major. What can you tell us about the Lima project. I man expedition to the Outer Solar System. I answer some twenty nine years ago and the commando was was my father. Sir Ship disappeared approximately sixteen years into the mission. No data is ever recovered. Deep Space Missions were halted after Roy. We have something that might come as quite a shock to you. We believe father still alive near Neptune. The Fathers Alexa believes Roy. The surge seems to be the result of some kind of antimatter reaction. Now Louima project was powered by that material and your father was charging. We're talking about a potentially unstoppable chain-reaction here and uncontrolled release of antimatter could ultimately threaten the stability of our entire sources. All life could be destroyed. Roy's mission is to travel to a military base on Mars to transmit a secure message to Clifford and persuade him to stop the surge but I you'll have to head to the moon which has morphed into a grungy capitalist dystopia a giant shopping mall surrounded by a wasteland crawling with pirates. It's there's a gripping chase sequence in which some of those mercenaries pursue Roy in rickety vehicles across the lunar surface later. There's a frightening scene aboard spaceship to Mars where Roy makes a shocking discovery a reminder that humanity's desire to conquer new frontiers can have disastrous consequences these little jolts help break up a long episodic narrative that shuffles genres it will starting out as a futuristic noir before shifting into an action action movie a paranoid thriller and finally a cosmic male weepy ad Astra can feel both overwritten and under imagined I wish there were less of Roy's incessant voice over monologue and more of a sense of how this mind-bending often downright Kooky vision of the future came to be the story becomes even and more disjointed once Roy arrives on Mars shot in a bold Red Palette by the cinematographer Hoyte van. Hoy Toma although I did love Natasha Leones Hilarious hilarious one scene performance as disgruntled Martian office worker. James Gray is often regarded as one of the film industry's last remaining classicists. It's a director of smart stirring grownup entertainments built on Hollywood's most enduring myths and John Lewis he's working on his biggest most expensive of canvas to date with Ad Astra and while the strange shows at times he also displays an ambition that feels increasingly rare big studio movies as well as a desire to Mr the audience's emotions honestly and respectfully at its best Astra Mary's the Meditative Space Odyssey of Solaris to the downriver madness apocalypse now with Tommy Lee Jones playing the movies Colonel Kurtz figure as Roy's elusive father there may be something unabashedly ridiculous about the idea of a man saving the world by traveling millions of miles to be reunited with his Long Absence Dad but it's in that mix of absurdity and sincerity that Ad Astra finally transcends its lapses and approaches the sublime like gray's previous adventure epic the Lost City of Z. This is a surprisingly is in critical portrait of Masculinity in crisis. It's about neglectful fathers and needy sons and the often unbridgeable distances between them. The most striking of the movies many effects may be Pitt's performance which couldn't be more different from his recent work in once upon a time in Hollywood in that movie pit was all swaggering physicality in Ad Astra. He's almost other worldly in his stillness. Holding the camera's gaze with is that seem contain multitudes. You shows us a man getting back in touch with his deepest emotions and makes that experience deeply emotional for us in turn. If if that's not a sign of intelligent life at the movies I don't know what is Justin Chang as a film critic for the La Times. He reviewed the new film Ad Astra Stra coming up we talk to NBC and MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell about her long career covering politics and foreign affairs. She's receiving an an emmy for lifetime achievement. This is fresh air weekend. This message comes from NPR sponsor. Comcast business comcast didn't build the nation's largest. GIG GIG speed network just to make businesses run faster they built it to help them go beyond with reliable connectivity and intelligent WIFI that create engaging gene customer experiences with an APP that lets you monitor your entire network from the palm of your hand every day. Comcast business is helping businesses. Go beyond the expected expected to do the extraordinary comcast business beyond fast visit comcastbusiness dot com restrictions apply actual speeds vary and are not guaranteed. Erin teed my guest Andrew Mitchell will receive an emmy for lifetime achievement Tuesday at the news and Documentary Emmy ceremony. She's NBC's Zee's chief foreign affairs correspondent and anchor of MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell reports over the years. She's covered Congress. The White House presidential campaigns the State Department. She's reported from around the world including war-zones. She's ask tough questions to presidents and dictators and various powerful. People have tried had to get her fired. Mitchell is also a trailblazer for women journalists. She started her career in nineteen sixty seven as a quote copy boy at Kyw News Radio in Philadelphia. She became famous in the city for her tough coverage of a toughened divisive mayor Frank Rizzo her reputation for asking tough questions questions and for shouting them. If necessary has continued through her career Andrew Mitchell welcome to fresh air congratulations are new emmy. You have certainly earned earned it. It's such an honor little bit overwhelming something. I did not expect but I guess if you live long enough you get awards like this. Necessarily it takes more than living long enough. I WANNA play a pretty recent clip. I mean you are famous for asking tough questions and and standing up to powerful people not backing down not being intimidated. This is an example of that and it's from twenty seventeen about seven seven weeks after president trump was inaugurated and some kind of famous moment in your career rex tillerson than secretary of state eight had not answered questions from reporters in his public appearances and he was doing the photo op with the Ukrainian Foreign Minister at the State Department in you just just started shouting questions at him and at the end of this clip we will hear you being escorted out of the room so here's Andrew Mitchell trying to get rex Tillerson T. answer questions. Mr Secretary China has said there will be consequences for the deployment now of anti missile defenses dances in South Korea can you can you respond respond to our excuse Secretary Risch Ron. I'm trying to Mister Minister. You will be strong listening. You you got you and thank you and can you assure us that we able to more than Ukraine injure a for instance. We haven't had any time out. We leave okay describe. We're not actually seeing because this is radio. What's happening to you physically as you to answer to ask these questions you can hear the shutters of the still talkers and I'm being taken by the arm you know and just escorted out politely and they're telling me that the time is up and I'm trying. We're backing out. I'm ducking under the camera trying not to get cameras and just trying to get an answer and this had followed months ons of asking politely face-to-face in in one off the record session and then proceeding to ask you know why can't we have access. Why can't we travel with the secretary he. It wasn't taking reporters on the airplane. This was the first time since Henry Kissinger who traveled with the press corps that the State Department press corps was not in a pool traveling paying her own way with the secretary around the world and for months at least I traveled commercially trying to keep up with a military jet which was impossible and the fact that tillerson did not want the press corps to be involved really hurt him and so I went finally went to a photo opportunity and tried to get a question you heard what happened. Did you expect them to answer I did because I think that when confronted ah face to face with someone usually you could get an answer and we shouldn't have to ask questions chasing White House officials across the North Lawn after they've made an appearance on Fox News on the way back to the briefing room when the briefing room is there for daily briefings and I think that it really hurts the American people and it hurts hurts the administration if Tillerson could've amplified America's message to the world if he had taken the press with them even a trailblazer for women in journalism realism when you started your journalism career in the late nineteen sixties. Did you consider yourself a feminist. Had you thought about the lock lack of equality that women Manhattan you'd have to fight to have a career in journalism and how important it would be as a precedent to have that fight. I I was forced by circumstances to yes to feel that I was going to have to fight for it because it's the very first job that I got was being denied to me. I was ready to join the management trainee program in this Broadcast Company and they said but you can't be in the newsroom and I said why not and they said because we've never had a woman do that you can go into advertising or promotion which I didn't have any interest or skill for so i Said said well let me have a an entry level union job as a copy boy which was what they called us copy boys and they let me become the first woman copy boy ripping wire copy which was then printed on a teletype. I mean when you think of the transformations. We've had technology just in the years that I've been as part of this profession but there were no other women. They weren't role models. I can recall Pauline Frederick was the UN correspondent for NBC radio. Barbara Walters was at the today show transitioning from being kind of host to finally fighting her way to get you know past the the male anchors who stopping him from asking news questions and fortunately when I got to Washington there was Lesley Stahl and Cokie cokie Roberts and we just lost and my great friend Judy Woodruff who made so many things possible for me by having gotten to the NBC News Bureau I before I did and then being so welcoming and then we worked together on the White House beat did so many other things in the your sense what were some of the preconceptions as you had to fight about women the preconceptions at initially were that women could just not do hard news that they had to do women's social social news you know fashion food family and it was defined very rigorously. Women couldn't cover politics women couldn't cover do you know the military and better women than I proceeded me started breaking down those doors and certainly by the time I got to new. NBC Forty one years ago there was a woman White House correspondent very few others and so it was really it's still a challenge. I did consider myself a feminist because there were so many barriers had very strong mother and older sister sister and father who kept telling his daughters we could do anything we wanted to do and encouraged us in every every read venture. You've referred to the conflict. You've felt about wanting to be nice and wanting to be liked and on the other hand asking really tough questions questions and knowing that that's not going to endear you to do the person you're asking that. You'RE GONNA get a lot of grief for that. I do want to be liked but when it comes to asking a tough question I think I I don't hesitate that. Instinct takes over or determination takes over that. You never forget that your role is as a reporter I is that is that what you told your mother when she criticized you for being rude shoving questions the president well she she really didn't like that. I shouted questions at Ronald Reagan because he would be going to the helicopter coming back from Camp David from the helicopter and that was the the only chance we had when we went months without a press conference and so yes we shouted questions and sometimes he would stop often he would pretend that he couldn't hear sometimes he couldn't hear but often he would just point to his ears and point to his watch and signal that he couldn't here here but I I recall that my very first press conference with Reagan in Nineteen eighty-one I had come only a few months into uh into his administration right after the assassination attempt. I started filling in more with Judy Woodruff and the late John Palmer Hamas who are White House correspondents and I got to a news conference and I prepared a question but I was you know cautioned not to expect much because I was going to be sitting eating way in the back of the East Room you know under the cameras in the last row and he called on me and I later learned from his staff that he's actually he said when he looked at the picture book and he had not memorized the names of the correspondents none of them except maybe a few of the front row folks. He kept looking he said No. I WANNA I wanNA call him that. Nice woman keep shouting questions at me and no no and then they showed her my they showed my picture and and so that's that's the one I want to call on and they said no you don't because they already knew me but he did he so he called on me at that very first news conference. It's and thank goodness. I had a question ready. What do you consider to be your biggest showdown with the president. I think the biggest showdown I had was was actually with the chief of staff. Don Regan over Iran Contra. When I asked a question of the president at the news conference this was Reagan and it was nineteen eighty-seven I asked a question about the revelation that Israel had helped with money for the Iran Contra Contra operation illegally and he answered incorrectly and they had to put out a correction twenty minutes later while we were still in primetime in primetime coverage so right before nine o'clock news conference ended at eight thirty five. They issued a written statement. The president misspoke corrected himself. I ran out to the lawn to get it to my colleague Chris Wallace who is on the air with Tom Brokaw and got down below. The Camera Angle handed ended the statement to him so he could get it on right before nine. o'clock ran back to the small cubicle in the back of the White House briefing room that we had that each of the networks have and the phone was ringing and it was Don Regan the chief of staff cursing me out for asking the question saying he's going to get me fired. It reminded me of Frank Rizzo. The mayor of Philadelphia bullied me so much and I was really scared and there have been other instances I asked a question at a news conference conference of Bill Clinton about whether he was gonna live up to his commitment to permit gays in the military you just taken taken office and he stared down and it set off a huge storm which led to don't ask don't tell so asking tough questions. That's you know that's that's what we do. They get mad. We have to do our jobs. They don't like being pressed their scandals and as long as you're respectful and have your facts right you push ahead. How would you compare the kind of anger when Don Regan tried to shut you down to for example when president trump tries to take away White House credentials of a broadcaster or calls journalists the enemy of the people. I think it's much more profound now there have been lots of threats private threats in the past anger anger reporters individually but the president of the United States to call the news media. The enemy of the people is to tell his supporters to tell the world that is his view of of the fourth estate it is to diminish respect and credibility respect for the media and the credibility of the media area the result of this campaign which is now very targeted during the election campaign is to make people not believe us when we fact check him and he has to know that a lot of what we are reporting contradicts predicts him and it just this week said that he never said that he would meet with Iranians with no preconditions he said on camera and on twitter a week ago and so did his secretary of state and as being all the time on television. It's like he forgets that he set it in front of a camera and there's a record of what he said and it's astounding but he has a bigger megaphone info when he says fake news here dictators around the world speaking about fake fake news. It's it's term. An enemy of the people is a term that goes back to Joseph Stalin. If not earlier do you do you feel like you're boundaries have shifted a little bit in terms armed of like subjective things that you say about this president because the norms have been shattered because he's shattered so many norms because so many people are so concerned concerned about the direction is taking the country in and about you know even about war that we might you know inadvertently accidentally get into or intentionally attention get into perhaps through a tweet I mean has has changed your confidence or your ability to give like opinion or to share concern. It has changed changed my ability and I'm not comfortable with it. I was raised in journalism where you would just deliver the facts. Provide the context rely on your knowledge to say that this is likely to happen or that is likely to happen. This is true or not true but you didn't feel that every day you had to be of necessity correcting the president of the United States or the press secretary for false statements and it's not a position that I welcome at all I think his use of twitter and his acusations in the personal attacks have required us to be a much stronger in fact checking and correcting the record and it is not healthy. I don't think for us to be in this adversarial situation. It's appropriate for us to challenge and provide context but I I don't enjoy this at all but I think it's an obligation I think we owe it to our readers and viewers and listeners to point out what is true and what is not your I think five three I'm shorter than that. I know there is at least once when you had to stand on a box for for your report in order to be seen by the camera with the right shot have there in more instances of that where you stand on a box to given so many instances. I've stood on boxes all over the world. You do what you have to do. Stood on ladders. I've stood on tables. I stood on boxes but the advantage to being short because is there is an advantage is that if you're trying to be seen and shadow question at President of the United States you can crawl under they tripods of the camera crews pop up on the other side on the front line and not get in the way of the camera. How often have you done that all the time so a lot of people are crawling around the floor or used to be used to doing it yet. It's one of the things that is less than dignified but if you've got in the old days with Sam Donaldson Bill Plante these tall guys shouting questions behind the cameras. If you're five three or less you do what you have to do. Did you have to learn how to have a really big voice. I don't think I had to learn uh-huh I I. We call. The one of the chapters in my book is called designated. Chowder and that was my job for many many years at the Reagan White House was shouting and trying to be heard over a helicopter Andrew Mitchell. Thank you for this interview. Thank you for your reporting and congratulations. It's on the emmy you will be receiving next week Terry Gross. It's such an honor to be with you. Thank you so much. Andrew Mitchell is NBC's chief. Foreign Affairs correspondent sounded an anchor of MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell reports on Tuesday shall receive an Emmy for lifetime achievement at the news and Documentary Emmy. The ceremony fresh air weekend is produced by Teresa fresh. Air's executive producer is Danny Miller our technical director and engineer Bentham our interviews and reviews produced and edited by Amy Salad Phyllis Myers Sam brigger Lauren Crandall and Rebolledo NATO Roberta shorrock moves eighty challenor and Seth Kelly Molly Seavy Nesper as our associate producer of digital media. I'm Terry Gross

US government Edward Snowden president Russian government Andrea Mitchell Justin Chang Terry Gross comcast NPR emmy MSNBC White House Philadelphia Russia Dave Davies Moscow Air White House
Soccer's Edward Snowden

Pro Rata

09:46 min | 1 year ago

Soccer's Edward Snowden

"I. Axes pro rata where we just ten minutes to get you smarter on the collision of tech business and politics sponsored by six Broadway. I'm Dan for MAC today show, why BuzzFeed just took the buzzsaw to its payroll and the latest in government shutdown stupidity, but first suckers Edward Snowden last week eight thirty year old man named Louis Pinto was arrested in Hungary where he faces extradition to his native Portugal on charges of extortion and violations of secrecy. Basically Pinto is the man behind a website called football leaks. Which were he in American would probably have been called soccer leaks in its four years of existence. Football leagues has produced. A treasure trove of damning information against top world soccer officials and some of its biggest stars. And that's included having an impact in global courtrooms including this past Tuesday. When Portugal's Cristiano Renaldo was fined over twenty million dollars after pleading guilty to tax fraud and Spain, plus there's a sexual assault case against Rinaldo, which has been reopened again for which football leagues deserves credit now Pinto. Of course is not supposed to have the information. He has he's a soccer fan, not a soccer official or team employees. So that's a big distinction between him and Edward Snowden. But the basic question remains the same. When should a hacker be called a whistle blower and given the protections that come along with that classification? It's something a judge in Hungary will soon have to decide about Pinto, and that ruling matters a lot because other potential Pinto's potential Snowden 's will be watching closely and using judge's decision to determine their own future actions in twenty seconds. We'll go deeper with KENDALL Baker editor of axios sports. But I this capable of serving fifteen million visitors a year in the heart of time square Tia sex Broadway is the ideal platform for the world's most ambitious brands with integrated retail, entertainment and hospitality as well. As time squares only, permanent outdoor stage and real time. Digital customer engagement TSA. Broadway allows her every kind of branded experience in the world's most visible location. Learn more at TSN, Broadway dot com. We're joined now by KENDALL Baker editor axios sports, so KENDALL. Let's actually start with Cristiano Renaldo for a quick second. Here not football leaks. Can you give me a sense for folks in the US who aren't necessarily soccer global football fans? How big is he in terms of popularity compared to a LeBron or Brady the Braun is a very good imperative just LeBron and basketball more. So than football. Fortunately, for Tom is more of a global sport. And so on a global level is right up there with abroad whenever they released those top athletes in terms of social media presence. He's always on top of that list or number two. He's huge huge globally and spent a lot of his career in Spain is now in Italy. So that's, you know, only expanding footprint. This has been a lot of stuff that football leagues. The website has uncovered and released over the last four years talking a little bit about what's been uncovered. When it comes to kind of top officials and top authorities in what they have done that. They weren't supposed to do. Theory of leaked or of our life for years in this kind of Panama papers esque independent journalists kind of coming together on a collaborative effort and coming away with these stories for years and one of the biggest ones involve actually, the current president of FIBA who was previously the general secretary of UEFA or union of European football situations, what they found was UEFA ahead instituted this standard financial fair play which basically was instituted to make sure that soccer clubs in Europe were spending similar amounts of money. And so essentially a clubs outgoing Pat to match their incomings as a pretty simple standard. And basically what they found was that UFO was allowing some of their more popular clubs like Manchester City, like Paris Giron to essentially inflate, the value of their sponsorship deals to get more money to spend on players. It was them working with the top clubs to allow them to essentially play by a different set of rules and everybody else. So the guy who's behind this this guy ROY Pinto gets arrested last week. Do we know yet or have any idea how he's gotten all this? Information. We don't yet at least to my knowledge that could be coming out this week. Now that is becoming more of a national story that he is actually been arrested. But basically what we know about him now that he's a huge soccer fan. Who was according to his lawyer as very upset with the game the corruption going on to expose this. And he's a believe in their words, computer geeks. So right now the narrative that he's, you know, a hacker type who came across this information, not exactly sure how he's not being charged or at least Portugal wants them extradited from Hungary. And they don't want him extradite based on stuff about Rinaldo or the stuff. You were talking about UEFA. They want him specifically he had information on a big investment fund that invested soccer in Europe. Correct. ES what they have him on or they're trying to target it with is essentially blackmailing a agency doing sports the big soccer agency in Europe. If blackmailing them saying, hey, we have these confidential documents, which I think included transfer fees and secret payments, they made and I'm gonna release these unless you pay me. And according to Laura like that did happen. He did attempt to make contact. But. It doesn't sound like anything actually came for wishing there. And so they're trying to point out that that might be invalid. So it's weird. Right. Because it seems that the lawyers that are basically saying actually correct me if I'm wrong this he asked for money, but they didn't pay it. And thus the extortions not valid anymore. That's kind of like Saint, well, I went to the Bank with the gun, but they didn't give me any money. So I didn't really try to rob the Bank. Exactly. Yeah. I agree with the lawyers are really just trying to hit home defect that there might be one instance, where their client engaged in something potentially criminal on a more macro level their argument that the result of these leaks with positive for the game of soccer, and that that outweighs whatever potential gray era e might have wandered in overall. Which is where the Snowden comparison comes in right, which I mean, again, it's not perfectly apples down as we said. There's some distinctions here in terms of employees versus fan cetera. But same idea, right? If the information is good enough, then there's a public interest a big enough public intercession outweigh hungry though. Right has a particular whistle blower law. Correct. Like one that's different than the US. I've done some research on this actually this morning. There wasn't a lot of formation out there about it. But according to what I found basically hungry has been for actually a while. Now, kind of you'd as a very friendly to whistleblowers, and they actually have specific laws that other countries don't surrounding whistleblowers the law that's been place in twenty fourteen twenty dollars. It's just a very friendly law to blowers in comparison to other countries, including this one, including the US does going to do this doing Budapest is better than doing it in New York, right? The fact that he's in hungry appears to be a good thing for him. I would assume with a case of this magnitude that you know, that the world probably watching with this law having only been in places twenty fourteen this is like a monumental ruling four Hungary on the world stage right now, it also seemed to be rightly if he's let off the hungry. Judge has no you're whistle blower. You're not a hacker your hacker. But you're also whistle blower. So it's okay. Does that mean he'd get to keep running the site? That's a good question from what I've heard eat kind of done his thing. Retired at thirty like a soccer player. Exactly. I think a lot of his work. For say has been done he handed over. I think everything he's actually already cooperating what some other governments being Disley Germany. He's done his part, and he's now cooperating, and that's also what his learned or giving. Hey, look, we're cooperating with other governments here. Why are we being extradited back to Portugal and Baker editor of the outstanding sports daily newsletter, which you can get it? Sign up axios dot com. Thanks for joining us by final two right after this time, squares newest spectacle, Forty-six stories of maximalist retail called TSE X Broadway. TSS Broadway will be the only building in Times Square to offer permanent outdoor performance venue. Overlooking. The iconic tickets red steps it'll also feature seventy five thousand square feet of flexible retail space. Visit USX Broadway dot com for an inside look at the future of retail. Now, it's for my final two. And I up his news that media website BuzzFeed is laying off around fifteen percent of its staff or proximity two hundred fifty employees now BuzzFeed is said to actually be profitable. Unlike lots of other media upstarts, but his struggled to meet growth expectations and now basically wants to solidify its foundation. So it never again needs to raise private capital now expect some crowing from some maga- folks, particularly given buzzfeed's recent controversy involving story published saying President, Trump instructed Michael Cohen to light of congress, but within media land, the story will really be this continuing narrative of a conflict between journalism and venture capital. And if the two can really coexist finally the government shutdown is now on day thirty four which means that furloughed federal workers are about to miss their second straight pay period. Not surprisingly, many of these folks are now looking for systens, which US commerce secretary Wilbur Ross was asked about this morning on CNBC by Andrew Ross Sorkin their reports that there are some federal workers who are going to homeless shelters. To get food. Well, nobody are an don't really quite understand why because the obligations that they would undertake Sayeh borrowing from the Bank or credit union are in effect. Federally guaranteed, really Wilbur. You don't understand why I guess so much for that Harvard Business School training? How about this people need food to live, but food costs money and money comes from employers, if the employer no longer pays the money. People can't afford to buy the food. Yeah. Sure. Some people can get loans from credit unions and things like that. And they may be for paying other necessities like rent and heat. But that only goes so far, and unlike what you said Wilbur, not everyone furlough does have federally guaranteed backpay coming such as the tens of thousands of federal contractors bottom line here. Putting an oblivious billionaire on TV might not be the White House's smartest PR strategy. And we're done big. Thanks for listening and to my producers, Adam Grassi and Tim show. Vers have a great national beer can appreciation day, and we'll be back tomorrow. With another pro rata podcast.

soccer Hungary football Edward Snowden US Louis Pinto BuzzFeed Cristiano Renaldo UEFA KENDALL Baker Wilbur Ross ROY Pinto Spain Portugal Rinaldo Portugal editor TSA Europe Harvard Business School
Day 970: Trump says U.S. is locked and loaded and Edward Snowden says Trump is "easy to understand"

The 11th Hour with Brian Williams

45:03 min | 11 months ago

Day 970: Trump says U.S. is locked and loaded and Edward Snowden says Trump is "easy to understand"

"Tonight brinksmanship from the White House as president trump once again says America is locked and loaded and looking at Iran after an attack on a huge Saudi oil facility plus. The president takes aim at the New York Times over its new reporting an explosive story about Justice Brett Cavanaugh a year after the Republican the Senate voted to put him on the court also tonight five years after first meeting Edward Snowden in Moscow our conversation with him today. We'll hear him talk talk about life. Our politics are data. WHO's looking at it how vulnerable we are and along the way he talks about Donald Trump Donald trump strikes me and like nothing so much as a man who has never really known love that he hasn't had to pay for all of it as the eleventh hour gets that's underway on a Monday night well good evening once again from our NBC News headquarters here in New York Day nine seventy of the trump administration anti the president appeared before a rally in New Mexico his first visit as president of that state he lost Hillary Clinton back in two thousand sixteen as he begins the week facing brand new challenges at home and abroad this weekend's attack attack on Saudi Arabia's major oil facility has heightened tensions with Iran because of the president saying the US was locked and loaded and awaiting word from the Saudis on how to proceed this afternoon. Trump was asked about the possibility of a military conflict with Tehran. No I don't want war with anybody but we're prepared more than anybody two and a half years ago I will tell you it was not the same thing and with what we've done. We've totally rebuilt. We build our military in so many different ways but we've rebuilt it and there's nobody has the F thirty five. They have the best fighter jets the best rockets the vessels vessels the best equipment but with all of that being said we'd certainly like to avoid it more on that front ahead in this broadcast. The president is also also facing trouble on another front and one he will not like a new effort to get copies of his tax returns. NBC News has confirmed a New York Times the report from earlier today that prosecutors in the Manhattan District Attorney's office have subpoenaed eight years of his personal and corporate tax returns. This goes goes back to two thousand eleven. They're seeking tax documents from trump's trump's longtime accounting firm as ours. USA This latest request comes as part part of New York State's criminal investigation into what role trump or as business may have played in making hush money payments in the weeks before the two thousand sixteen election election just days ago. We learned that former trump attorney. Michael Cohen is cooperating in this case you'll recall while serving a three year federal sentence for among other crimes his role in making those payments to the porn star stormy Daniels which constituted a campaign finance violation case in which just the President was an unindicted Co conspirator the house ways and Means Committee has already subpoenaed trump's tax returns that was back in May. He is fighting fighting that request in court presently tomorrow trump's former campaign manager. Corey Lewandowski is expected to testify publicly as part of the House Judiciary Judiciary Committee's obstruction investigation to other witnesses and this is notable former trump administration aides rick dearborn and Rob Porter there were also scheduled to testify at the White House has told them not to appear and there's also an explosive story as we mentioned having to do do with Supreme Court Justice Brett Cavanaugh who was sworn in almost a year ago now after that contentious confirmation process which included the emotional testimony from Dr Christine Blasi Ford who accused Justice Cavanaugh of sexual misconduct this weekend the New York Times published a piece about Debra Ramirez who had accused Justice Cavanaugh of exposing himself to her during a party at the Yale University campus in the early eighties the piece as part of a book out tomorrow by two times reporters they write quote at least seven people including Ms Ramirez is mother heard about the incident long before Mister Cavanaugh Kavanagh was a federal judge. Two of those people were classmates who learned just days after the party occurred suggesting that it was discussed among students at the time the The New York Times reported on another allegation that cavenaugh exposed himself to another female classmate during his time at Yale and that a witness name AMAC's tire quote notified senators and the FBI about this his account but the FBI did not investigate and Mr Steinmeier has has declined to discuss it publicly. The Times added to the reporting last night that the female student involved in this new claim quote declined to be he interviewed and friends say she does not recall the episode. Cavanaugh has repeatedly denied the allegations from Ford and Ramirez and had declined climbed to comment on the new allegations. Trump has been vigorously defending cavenaugh on social media. Meanwhile six of the Democratic presidential dementia candidates have called for Kavanagh's impeachment and trump responded just in the last hour. Look at what they're doing today to justice cabinet. They're calling for his resignation. They're calling for his impeachment. The woman said I don't remember that they still want him to be a beach house. Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler says they plan to question. FBI Director Christopher Array about the bureau's Cavanaugh investigation at a hearing that will be next month here for our leadoff discussion on a Monday night as we start a new week of this Tim O'Brien executive editor of Bloomberg opinion also happens to be the author of trump nation the art of being the Donald AB stoddard columnist and associate editor her at realclearpolitics and Harry Littman a former federal prosecutor and former deputy assistant attorney general and counselor. I'd like to begin with you out out on the West. Coast you Saturday that this tax return story this request. This demand could be a game changer. Why is that in your view. Everything about the House Ways and Means Committee request is strange and barricaded by the Department of Justice which is fighting tooth and nail with with specious legal claims. This is a straight up requests from a private party the accounting firm that says it's going due to cooperate as part of a criminal investigation so none of those blockades are there. It's likely to get the information although note it's still going to be secret secret and then second it reignites everything about the Coen investigation that stopped in its tracks and remember they had a long way to go and we know no now that the trump organization and David Weisselberg is in their sides the the national enquirer and Sam Pecker. Maybe hope picks smaby Donald Trump junior who signed one of the checks it could go a long way and Vance is making every sign that he's prepared to you follow the road where it leads and people who remember the name Cyrus Vance in our national politics. This is his son who is now. Da Manhattan Tim O'Brien Ryan this could be mood of course because the president in a way. I'm going to play right now for us to discuss has already promised us a look at his financials. I'll be at some point prior to the election. I'm going to be given out a financial report of me and it'll be extremely complete. I gotTA give out. I'M GONNA give out my financial condition and you'll be extremely shocked that the numbers many many times what you think so so not only will it be extremely complete. We will be extremely shocked at the numbers there and why would you have any reason to doubt him. I doubt it extremely Lianne. Extreme doubts that the president will ever willingly turn over anything that's transparent about his own finances and the reason for that is he has a number of things he wants to hide his businesses businesses never been as robust as he said it is. He has never been as generous philanthropist says he says he is that stuff's the low level will level issues the stuff that hits Tim in the Oval Office where does his income from and WHO's financed his businesses and that's GonNa. Some of that will surface in the tax returns. I think unfortunately differently the timeframe on both what the DA is looking at and what the House Ways and Means Committee is looking at may not go to the most Germane information the house ways and means Gene Means Committee is going back about six years the DA's office wants to go back eight in the in the mid two thousand a lot of cash came into the trump organization. Donald don't trump went on a shopping spree trump turnberry. He got involved with the trump. Soho and the provenance of those projects where the money came to get those things done on has always been a big question. Mark Eric Trump has told reporters in the past that they got the money from Russians and then he backed away from that trump has said what we paid for it out of our own business this proceeds but at the time is doing that he was also applying for loans to buy turnberry and all of that predates the date range in which they're looking at these tax actually turns so I think I think I think some of the mother lode might get missed in this nonetheless. I think they're going to look at things. Inside trump's taxes about how clear is about defining how much income he has where it comes from what he's booking as expenses and I think that's some of the stuff that's going to land on the Michael Comb Portion Fortunatus Abe help us make the turn into jurisprudence or at least what passes for it a lot of Democrats lining up today elbowing each each other out of the spotlight to say. Let's impeach Justice Cavanaugh. That's a high bar perhaps and I know you've talked about this this before the Democrats would make it their target to take over control of the US Senate which would make that a little easier right Brian. I found it just downing that they failed to make the case voters that they have to achieve a majority in the Senate to get anything that they want to confirm judges to try to shift back the court in after the incredible change that it has undergone out in the trump administration almost double the amount of openings that he inherited compared to Obama in two thousand nine complete remaking of the court in just a few years and they never talk about that on the campaign trail and they never talk about the need to get back to the majority in the Senate and the idea that they're going to start talking about impeaching a Supreme Court justice this right now in in a Republican majority Senate something that the chairman of the Judiciary Committee on the house side immediately said no you could see it later and reporting throughout the day other our top leaders in the party big name. Democrats say no no. We're not interested in this and their grass roots energy in their insurgents will all talk about it because has the people you know several of the candidates on the campaign trail will but it's a mistake you can tell the story of how this court change and why it's important to have a majority control you could even talk about the specter of maybe he lied under oath. Maybe that was a sham investigation don in just ten days but the idea of impeaching him is ludicrous why do you. I think that is about Democrats in the Senate I mean if there was any doubt we learned there was no one in charge of the party the night the Democrats came out and criticized Obama at at their debate but why do you that they are treating the notion of a democratic majority about reducing Mitch McConnell to minority leader as something untouchable touchable. I know it well. It's a tough map. It's a tough road back but I think again. The first step is energizing their voters the way the Conservatives don so so so effectively talking about this as a priority trump basically saying on the campaign trail in sixteen. You have to vote for me because of the judges it's all about the judges you never hear hear this from from anyone on the trail even Biden and it's it's really should be their primary goal. Let's unite around whoever because we have two goals taking back the Senate so we can get so nominations and some confirmations at this point even with a Democratic president if Mitch McConnell's majority leader got nothing when they say Tim O'Brien. It's all about the judges. They're not kidding. It's what informs the smile that always seems to be on Mitch McConnell's face well and I think it'll be this one of the signal achievements of trump's first term of which she had very little to do with I mean this was a federalist society. Don mcgann Mitch McConnell play and it's going to be one of the longest lasting the impacts of the trump years and I think it shows the real differences between Democrats and Republicans. The Federalist Society started planning on the stuff in the mid nineteen eighties. They laid the groundwork for this. They were methodical. They defied vacancies. They identified judges. They cultivated judges. The Democrats are never good at that kind of a long ground game. A AH Harry meanwhile we watched the continuing Charlie Browning of Jerry Nadler the pulling of the football ball away from this chairman of the House Judiciary Committee that has now decided I guess to retell some of the story of Bob Muller report. Do they have any recourse when the White House just says these two former aides. They're not going to appear before your committee yeah only the law. It's just that the law takes place over a scale of months and they needed in days or weeks. Lewinsky Taos Ski will testify tomorrow unlimited material and he won't hurt trump at all and as you say the other two aides it's Ludik well first of all the whole notion of absolute absolute immunity is completely concocted and made up for mcgann ads for porter as for anyone they applied to but but these these guys are not you know the the deepest circle anyway so no they do it because they can they stall for time it goes to the courts potentially even to the DC circuit and Supreme Court and that is you know next summer or so by the time plays out. It's a it's a really meritless claim but in in the political and news cycles which is what they're looking at buying the time is valuable and they sort of win by losing never boring around here era especially on this Monday night with our thanks to Tim O'Brien two. AB STODDARD and Harry Lipman three of our returning veterans appreciate it very much and coming up for us this is the president really gunning for an attack on Iran or just talking that way and can Saudi Arabia really order up an attack by US forces on on their behalf even if they compensate us for our troubles and later our interview today with Edward Snowden on how our phones never sleep and the stories they can and do tell about all of us that ought to keep you tuned in. It's a compelling segment. The eleventh hour just getting started on this Monday night of a new week. HEY MSNBC listeners. It's me Chuck Rosenberg this week on the oath. I sit down with lead nine eleven prosecutor Rob Spencer when needed to treat this as a regular murder case except with nearly three thousand victims rob was the lead prosecutor during the trial of Zacharias Moussaoui the Nine Eleven conspirator and the only member of al Qaeda ever to be tried in the US courtroom. We're able to give even our avowed enemy who you told us at trial that could he come back and kill every one of us a fair trial join me for that conversation with Lead Nine Eleven Prosecutor Rob Spencer. That's this week on. MSNBC'S THIS NBC's the oath available now. Wherever you get your podcasts welcome back there was a drone attack over the weekend on Saudi oil facilities and our president is at least raising the question on social media of course that the US. I would consider an attack on Iran on behalf of the Kingdom in Saudi Arabia today he added they would reimburse us for the expense to our forces and he said that he would wait for the Saudis to tell him quote under what terms we would proceed one. Democrat in Congress said it makes the president sounds submissive other say would reduce our armed forces to mercenaries for hire. Iran for their part has denied responsibility for the attacks iranian-backed rebels in Yemen initially claimed responsibility for the strikes cut about five percent right there of the world's oil supply the Saudis released a statement today at reads in part quote initial investigations have indicated that the weapons used in the attack were Ronnie and weapons. Investigations are still ongoing to determine the source of the attack earlier today. The president was asked about the attacks in the Oval Office and have you seen evidence proved the wrong way. We'll have some pretty good having some very strong studies done but it's certainly looking that way at this moment and now we'll let you know as soon as we find out definitively. We'll let you know but it does look that way. President also added. He doesn't want war with anybody but on Sunday he said quote there is the is reason to believe that we know the culprit are locked and loaded depending on verification but are waiting to hear from the kingdom as to who they believe was the cause because of this attack and under what terms we would proceed late today. NBC News reported that according to three sources US Intel indicates that the drone attacks on the oil facilities originated from Iran which still begs the question of why it would be a US fight here with us tonight to talk about a General Barry McCaffrey cafre retired US Army four-star heavily decorated combat veteran of Vietnam and importantly a US ground commander in the Gulf War he has been to this oilfield in Saudi Arabia also with US tonight Jeremy Bash former chief of staff at the eye and at the Pentagon general. I'd like to begin with you. Tell us about about this facility and tell us your view of the optics of this president saying we are locked and loaded and seemingly awaited AH waiting instructions from the kingdom look it was a very serious blow a Toddy Arabia. It probably knocked half their total production off-line. Some of it may be for much. I think at the end of the day it's going to turn out to be an Iranian technology. Iranian devised attack possibly possibly through surrogates up in Iraq or Yemen Unlikely and the question now arises the presence applied maximum pressure should tweet withdrew from the nuclear accord. They are now pushing back with maximum deniable pressure. I think no one in the region wants war for trump doesn't want war the Saudis of just been demonstrated their vulnerability to attack on her own infrastructure the Iranians don't want war ended up being subject to attack by the US Air Force Navy for thirty to ninety days. It's GONNA wreck most of their country so I I think the president bluffing on on US military response he's GonNa have to find a way out of his box. We're going to have to talk the Iranians and better be shown. The Revolutionary Guards may not want peace. They may see this is an opportunity so we'll see where it goes but it's a very tricky situation Jeremy Bash. I'm tempted to ask what isn't vulnerable to these drones. We have created across the world but I I'm truly curious to hear your your big picture view of this region and what could happen first of all. I think it's interesting to note that when General McCaffrey was leading troops in nineteen ninety you one in the Gulf Mohammed bin Salman Crown Prince's Saudi Arabia was six years old. He did not experience the Scud barrage on his zone country. This is the first real test of his leadership effectively running the country and I grew channel McCaffrey. This is a significant blow to Saudi the oil output. It is basically an act of war against the Saudis but it is not inactive war against the United States. I think we've got to be clear that we respond militarily when our vital interests are threatened. We try to act multi-laterally. We consult with Congress. We try to exhaust diplomacy. We have a clear exit plan an exit strategy. We have none of those conditions here and so I do not think this situation warrants a United States kinetic military response general is this the foreign policy see crisis. We have been fortunate enough to avoid these nine hundred seventy days and what does it do inside you to hear the president say say our military would be reimbursed for our actions conceivably on behalf of the kingdom well. The Language of course is entirely inappropriate from from senior political leader like the United States. It's just unheard of a locked and loaded is a term used on rifle ranges when you're about the fire at the next command so it ju just is provocative. It's not put him in a box himself. I think at the end of the day we are not going to use as military power against the Iranians we do have a capability to devastate their oil infrastructure take out their navy and most of their air force but it would serve nobody's purpose and it would be a terrible blow to the USA and Saudi Arabia. We'd be in trouble with Iraqis. We're not GONNA have allies. Allies join us so. I don't think it's going to happen. Trump now being put in a position where he's got to go the Iranians give them some face saving way out and start talking Economi outcome of this crisis Jeremy Bash. The President tweeted this today. The fake news is saying that I am willing to meet with Iran no conditions. That is an incorrect statement as usual. I want to show you now. Why we in the fake news media have reported at the way we have. I would certainly meet with Iran if they wanted to meet. You have preconditions for that meeting preconditions now. They want to meet on me anytime. They want. No preconditions you. WanNa talk good. You'd otherwise you can have a bad economy for additional years not as far as I'm concerned no preconditions so Mr Bash. Uc that example sample the whole world however is able to hear this and the whole world is watching this he doesn't have any credibility on June twentieth when the Iranians Indians actually shot at a US aircraft downing in international airspace US flagged Aircra- remotely piloted aircraft the president said that he wasn't even told by the United States military that there will be casualties if the United States responded that of course also was incorrect not true and really undermined his but more importantly only America's credibility these inconsistent statements these easily provable misstatements that I think make our word and therefore are deterrents turns a lot weaker to Barry McCaffrey. Thank you very much to Jeremy Bash. Thank you very much. Both of you gentlemen for adding to our conversation MM for station tonight and coming up his name is synonymous with the biggest to intelligence theft the biggest intelligence breach in our history now he lives in exile our exclusive interview earlier today with Edward Snowden including including whether he's ready to come home and face the music in this country when we continue back in two thousand fourteen after a long protracted negotiation I traveled to Moscow where at the appointed hour there there was a knock at my hotel room door and when I answered it there was a young man who introduced himself as Ed and shook my hand. We had both taken extraordinary ordinary security precautions to be able to meet and speak to each other in person and we talked for hours. All of it was fascinating especially considering he was just about out the most sought after man in the world at the time because of what he had done the largest intelligence breach in history and Snowden has now. Oh told his story in a new book called Permanent Record and so today from this studio. I interviewed him in Moscow. Something you've been asked before something you have answered before but since this is a fresh occasion will will ask it again. Why not stay in this country country and face the music. If you believed in the strength of your conviction. This is a great question. Brian and I'm glad you asked it when we say face the music. The question is will what song they playing. I was intentionally charged. As every major major whistleblower in the last decades has been with the very particular a crime this violation of the espionage act of nineteen seventeen gene and this is a law that is explicitly designed to prohibit a meaningful defense in court. I would not have received a fair trial. There would not have been much of a trial all I would only have received a sentence and the question in there is what message does that send whether you like it or not. I could be the best person in the world. I could be the worst. What message does a conviction. Were you spend the rest of your life in prison for telling journalists things that changed the laws of the United States that have resulted in the most substantive reforms warms to intelligence authorities since the nineteen seventies. If the only way of doing that is a life sentence imprison the next person who sees something criminal happening in the United States government. We'll be discouraged from coming forward and I can't be a part of that. You said your greatest fear fear over. What you did was that things would not change? Have things changed. Would you do it again today. Knowing what what you know now. This is a significant portion of the final chapter of my book. Things have changed inched and I would do it again if I changed anything. I would hope that I could have come forward sooner. I it took me so long. Just understand what was happening and it took so long to realize that nobody else was going to fix this. Believe me when I say I did not want to light a match and burn my life to the ground. No one does nobody really wants to be a whistle blower but the results of that have been staggering. I thought this was going to be two days story. I thought everybody was GONNA. Forget about this week. After the journalists random first stores in two thousand thirteen thirteen but here we are in two thousand nineteen and we're still talking about it in fact data security surveillance the Internet manipulation and influence that's provided or produced rather by corporate or governmental control of this permanent record of all of our private lives lives. It's been created every day by the devices that we have the world after twenty thirteen. We know that is happening in this is the critical importance of journalism particularly this moment that we have today today. The distance between speculation and fact is everything in a democracy because that's what let's us as we did post 2013 change our laws the very first program that was real. The newspapers has since been terminated the Rock Obama who criticized me so strongly June twenty only thirteen by January twenty th fourteen was proposing this program be ended eventually was ended under the USA free enact the NSA essay argued that mass surveillance was legal bulk collection as they call it. They said fifteen different judges authorized. Is this what they didn't tell us was that those fifteen judges all belong to the Rubber Stamp Pfizer Court that over thirty three years have been asked to thirty thirty three thousand nine hundred times the government to prove surveillance requests and only said in thirty three years eleven times. We have several important jobs vacant in this country including Director of National Security National Security Ready Adviser. Is that a threat to our security. I think it says something about where we are. What this point in our history looks like when we find that there are not enough people in the country that are willing to serve in the White House and unqualified to serve in the White House who all sides of the government feel comfortable working with and who they can back. We are in a time that is increasingly fractured and I think that's a product of the fact that look if you look around at the world right now when you look at news when you look at news coverage when you look at every controversy that we see something has changed and that is that it has become increasingly popular for your feelings to matter more more than the facts and I think that's toxic to democracy because if there's one thing that we have to have two people have this discussion to be able to learn to live with people people that we disagree with. We can't have a conversation about what we should do. We can't have a conversation about where we are going if we can't agree on where we are if we can't agree on what is happening. Facts have to matter more than feelings. What do you make of Donald Trump. There are so many things that are said about the president right now now and so much thinking honestly. I try not to think about it. There's so much chaos and there are so many aggressive in offensive thing said I think even his supporters would grant that but I think he's actually quite simple to understand. Donald trump strikes me like nothing so much as a man who has never known a love that he hasn't had to pay for and so everything that he does does is informed by a kind of transactions them. I think in what he's actually looking for is simply for people to like him. Unfortunately that produces a lot of negative effects. Thanks on that last assertion we reached out tonight to the White House for comment and have not heard back. We're going to take a break more of my exclusive collusive conversation with Edward Snowden in just a moment this next part is the portion everyone needs to see and hear it's about your phone and and what it knows about you and what snowden does to his phones when he buys a new one next time you're sitting at a traffic light in your city or town. Just take a look at the people you can see many aren't looking forward as they walk there looking down just like they're looking down while on planes at the wheel at ball games at home. Our phones have taken over a portion of our lives. We didn't know we had to give away now. Please please listen to Edward Snowden from our conversation earlier today. When he talks about how vulnerable we are what our phones give off what they give giveaway and what they can tell someone about us. Hacking has increasingly become what governments consider legitimate investigative tool they use the same methods and techniques as criminal hackers and what this means is they will try to remotely take over your device once they do this by detecting vulnerability in the software. Your device runs such as apples. IOS were Microsoft Windows. They can craft a special kind of attack. Code called an exploit then launched exploited the vulnerability on your device which allows them to take total control with that device anything you can do on that device the attacker in this case the government can do they can read your email that can collect every document that can look at your contact contact book that can turn the location services on they can see anything that is on that phone instantly and send it back home to the mothership that can do the same with laptops the other prong that we forget so frequently as in many cases. They don't need to hack our devices. They can simply ask Google for a copy of our email box because Google saves a copy of what about enabling your microphone camera. If you can do it they can do it. it is trivial to remotely turn on your microphone or to activate your camera so long as you have systems level access. If you had attacked someone's device remotely anything they can do. You can do look up your nose right. They can record what's in the room the screen maybe off as it's sitting on your desk but the device is talking all of the time the question we have to ask who was talking to even if your phone is correct right now you look at it. It's just sitting there on the charger. It is talking tens or hundreds or thousands of times a minute to any number of different companies who have apps installed on your phone. It looks like it's off. It looks like it's just sitting there but it is constantly chattering. What about the public attitude held by millions of every day Americans. All I've got on a computer computer is pictures of my family TV cameras that are prevalent in a ton of American cities and overseas capitals. Those cameras are your friend if you're innocent and have nothing to hide. That's very much with the average. It's Chinese citizen believed perhaps even still to this day believes but we see how these same technologies are being applied to create what they called social credit system if any of these family photos if any of your activities online if your purchases associations if your friends since or in any way different from what the government or the powers that be of the moment would like them to be you're no longer able to purchase train tickets. You're no longer able to board an airplane. You may not be able to get a passport. You may not be eligible for job. You might not be able to work for the government. All of these things are increasingly being created and programmed and decided by algorithms and those algorithms are fueled by precisely innocent data data that are devices are creating all the time constantly invisibly quietly right now. Our devices are casting all of these records that we do not see being created in aggregate and very innocent you were at starbucks. At this time you went to the hospital afterwards. He spent a long time at the hospital. After you left left the hospital you made a phone call. He made a phone call to your mother. You talk to her until the middle of the night. The hospital was an oncology clinic it even if you can't see the content of these communications the activity records what the government calls. Meta data which they argue they do not need a warrant to collect tells the whole story and these activity records of being created and shared and collected it intercepted constantly by companies and governments and ultimately it means as they sell these as they trade these as they make their their businesses on the backs of these records what they are selling is not information. What they're selling is us. They're selling our future. They're selling our past. They are selling our history our identity and ultimately they are stealing our power and making our stories stories work for them. What devices do you use in your life now. And have you accepted the notion that you are watched rather constantly. I try not to make that easier for them. If I get a smartphone and I need to use the phone aw I actually opened up before I use it. I perform a kind of surgery on it physically disorder or sort of melt the metal connections that hold the microphone on the phone and I physically take this off. I remove the camera for the phone and now I close it back up. I seal it up and then if I need to make a phone Cole I will attach an external microphone on and this is just so if the phone is sitting there and I'm not making a call. It cannot hear me one more section of our conversation upcoming. He's already spent six years in exile an American living in Moscow with the Russians monitoring his his every move we'll talk about his dream of coming home to the US welcome back Edward Snowden decision to go public on his one secret work for our government government put everything he knew at risk his life in America his job and his personal relationships here now more of our conversation. Where do your parents come down on what you did in the book. We learn a lot more than we knew about them. They were both we say this. Listen quotes deep staters. We learned that they both had varying degrees of security clearances in their lives. Yeah I come from a federal family. My father worked for the military. My mother works for the courts. My whole line going back has worked in in the government service. I'm I'm so I think this was difficult for them and in fact one of the things that I will be eternally grateful for is the fact that they still stand by me today and believe that I did the right thing you paint a portrait of what some of us knew and that was that you were a thoroughly American kid in your upbringing upbringing. You wake up every day in Russia you go to sleep every night in Russia. Are you actively give. Lee Seeking to get out are you as has been reported looking for asylum elsewhere well. This is not an actively seeking. This is not a a new thing and this is important history especially for those people who don't like me for those people who doubt me who heard terrible things about me. It was never my intention. Don't end up in Russia. I was going to Latin America and my final destination was hopefully going to be Ecuador. I applied for them in twenty seven different countries around the world traditional additional. US allies places like France and Germany places like Norway that I felt the US government and the American public could be comfortable missile that was fine for whistle or being and yet every time one of these governments got close to opening their doors the phone ring and they're in their foreign ministries and on the other end of the line would be very senior American official. I one of two people then Secretary of State John Kerry or then vice president and Joe Biden and they don't care what the law is. We don't care if you could do this or not. We understand that protecting whistleblowers and granting asylum as a matter of human rights and and you could do this if you want to but if you protect this man if you let this guy out of Russia there will be consequences. We're not I'm. GonNa say what they're what they're going to be but there will be a response. I continue to this day to say look if the United States government government if these countries are willing to open the door that is not a hostile act that is the act of the front of a friend if anything if the United States government is so oh concerned about Russia. Shouldn't they be happy for me to leave and yet we see they're trying so hard to prevent me from leaving. I would ask you. Why is that I'm guessing joe. Biden is not your candidate for twenty twenty. Actually I don't take a position on the twenty twenty race. Look it's difficult position being the executive branches difficult position being empowered and you have to make unpopular decisions. What if someone said help us harden our elections from attack using your skills? I volunteer for that instantly. You know they wouldn't wouldn't even have to pay me for that. Remember I volunteered to work for the CIA for the NSA. When I came forward to reveal mass surveillance which we need to be clear the courts have found wasn't fact unlawful on the part of the government and one court said likely unconstitutional so so I have no objection to help the government. I came forward not to burn the NSA down. I came forward to reform it to help it. Return learned to the ideals that we're all supposed to share so there will never be a question of when my government is ready. When my government wants to help I will be there as it's not. Thank you very much good luck with the book. It's my pleasure Brian. Thank you for having me Edward Snowden the author of the new book called Permanent Record. It goes on sale tomorrow a final break. We're back after this real quick before we go without at its for time or television. We've put the entire interview on the web with Edward snowden. AT MSNBC DOT com slash eleven. THAT'S MSNBC DOT com slash eleven also tonight. We've made it available for download as a special edition podcast separate and apart from the podcast of tonight's night's TV broadcast. It's available for download now and with that that is our broadcast for this Monday night as we start a new week thank you for being here with us good night from our or NBC News Headquarters here in New York new for meet the Press Chuck Todd Cast. It's an insider's take on politics the twenty twenty election and more candid conversations with some of my favorite reporters about things we usually discuss off camera. Listen for free wherever you get your podcast.

US president Donald trump Edward Snowden The Times government Mark Eric Trump Saudi Arabia Iran US Senate Moscow White House Supreme Court trump Justice Brett Cavanaugh NBC News Brian Jeremy Bash Mitch McConnell
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**SPECIAL EMERGENCY SUNDAY RILEY MINI-MINI-MINI EPISODE**

"Okay everyone this is a emergency emergency. Many many many episodes of the multi multi friend of the pod Amina too so had a really great thread about this on twitter. Yes and I'm just going to thread Edward Snowden Book I love a whistle blower who said look Sunday Riley has been getting employees to log on use. We've gotta talk about the Sunday Riley News this scandal I mean we I to the complicated heart of this matter which is why did she have to leave fake reviews when her products are good it's mind boggling I read a couple of tweets she says fake Internet reviews are very bad and can have devastating consequences in this case the FTC sent out a press released their conclusions sure we'll call that punishments again not FTC expert we are not if she experts at Sunday Riley tr- whistle blowers across the board saving us right now I love a whistle-blower okay and so we've gotten many emails and voicemails asking us what we think about this yes unless just say we have recommended specifically Sunday all Percy is an actual person and the FTC investigated and a couple of days ago they justice Sunday Riley products well I did see another tweet and I am unfortunately didn't remember to save it but someone said in this case statement and we all had a good time with it but they did absolutely nothing to protect consumers par for the course under this administration Sunday Riley doesn't even admit they did anything wrong it's crickets from Sephora tap a brush yeah just a caress on the wrist and she was told just don't do it again no fine no penalty I mean some of the fake reviews that they were leaving were four acne treatments yeah that's scary so yeah so does this affect your willingness to mind boggling I and you know I just think like that is so fascinating just points to this obsession with our review based star based culture but what nothing and no essentially anything for the consumers who were misled yeah which is so crappy it's so crappy and you know rallies good genes serum a good Gillian podcast we both own it which I think a lot of people were saying this online I kind of gets people were really upset about is that she basically didn't get punished no little slap on the wrist tap a this is bad when you think of all the ways platforms can enable businesses to post fake reviews reviews some of US rely on to make important decisions but we put on our bodies discussed it when it blew up on the subway skin-care addiction yes we've mentioned this before yeah so to give a brief recap there was a whistle blower the Sephora website and leave fake reviews for her products and it's coming from Sunday Riley herself atop that's coming from the top the fish rots from the head because Sunday rally isn't action yes I'd actually just used it for the first time in a while like two days before this happened I think I'm going to use up this bottles I can separate the artist from their work keep buying good jim they're going to keep on good Geez I honestly torn I'm not I'm done you're on I don't even good genes for me is I mean I like it but it doesn't it hasn't had the same effect that it has had on other people see and I really like it you know and I and not buy it again and maybe if you know if she comes out with some statement expressing contrition or something I will as for other companies the same thing yes because they received no severe repercussions so it's like well why not just make up fake review yeah especially icky to me and I do also just want to read a little bit of the details of the fraud acidly reconsider but I think I can't support this company anymore well and also what's upsetting is that this essentially and I mean I guess you could say like why didn't I stop buying Sunday Riley when this first came to light and that's a great question it is it's a fair question totally using it and chatting did and but now I think it's really kind of highlight all these issues and the fact that she didn't even apologize or admit wrongdoing feels as your managers were acutely focused on boosting their products ratings at the expense of competitors for example Ms Reilly personally complained that the four point two rating on two of her products twitter and other places wanted to respond okay bye her points out that this proposed settlement is unlikely to deter other would-be wrong gour wrongdoers and says you know there's a cost benefit honest for it so this is just real shitty so in conclusion we don't know what we're going to do with our good genes audience and doesn't dry out the skin like all other acne mass do and works incredible sick well compared to the cheaper masks out there and this commission analysis that another company might take and come to the conclusion that it it pays to create fake reviews because they're not going to get awed from the descent one of the FTC Commissioner is descended from the thrilling good and he says so Sunday Riley and other st too low and instructed her employees that she'd quote like to see them at four point eight plus on another occasion a manager direct in place to discuss how Sunday Riley acting mass quote increases that is that well I hope you enjoyed the special emergency mini mini mini episode. Thank you all so much for asking us to talk about this we saw your comments on mini. We've never done this before I've never done this before this you know this is a new thing for us hi I'm kate this is Dorrie

Sunday Riley News Riley twitter Amina Edward Snowden Dorrie kate two days
Espionage: Whistleblowers Special, Exclusively on Spotify!

Espionage

01:54 min | 3 months ago

Espionage: Whistleblowers Special, Exclusively on Spotify!

"Hi there it's Carter. Thanks for listening to espionage. We hope you enjoy it as much as we do as you may know. Normally we take things spy by spy mission by mission but we wanted to mix things up and do something special for you our listeners. So for the next six weeks were taking a break from our usual programming to try something a different. We're taking a deep dive into whistleblowing. Whistle blowers are often prosecuted under the espionage. Act of nineteen seventeen. But they're far from your average spy. These operatives see injustice and decide to act whatever the consequences they had their own agendas their own psychology and an intimate relationship with some of the world's most closely guarded secrets. Starting may eighth espionage is six part whistleblower special airing weekly streaming exclusively on spotify. Each episode will continue the story of whistleblowing from it's surprising modern origins with Benjamin Franklin to some of the most controversial cases of the twenty first century featuring the likes of Julian assange Chelsea Manning in Edward Snowden. We're so excited to bring you these stories and to explore whistleblowing means today and perhaps tomorrow to espionage to society and to whistle blowers themselves. It will be suspenseful disturbing thought provoking and as always it will feature the indepth research. You've come to expect from us. Espionage is a par cast original. Starting may eighth. You can find new episode of the Whistle Blower special every Friday. Only on spotify.

Whistle Blower spotify Carter Benjamin Franklin Julian assange Edward Snowden Chelsea Manning six weeks
Justin Trudeau's Blackface Scandal | Edward Snowden

The Daily Show with Trevor Noah: Ears Edition

37:23 min | 11 months ago

Justin Trudeau's Blackface Scandal | Edward Snowden

"You're listening to comedy central September two thousand nine hundred from comedy central's World News Headquarters in New York. This is the daily show with Trevor Noah ears aw aw our guest tonight is the man behind one of the most famous leaks of government secrets in history and what Snowden is joining us on the show everybody the tonight show. Donald trump breaks out his shopping again. Rony Chang finds robots in a bar and Justin. Trudeau has a very duck passed so let's catch up on today's headlines. Let's kick it off with President Trump's trip to the west coast yesterday. The president's popped into California to host some fundraisers talk about housing issues stuck up on edibles but easily the highlight of his trip was getting to visit his favorite trialed the border wall president trump took time from a fundraising trip to visit a chunk of border wall and Otay Mesa California he he met with several construction workers and was invited to sign the wall which he did with a sharpie he boasted about the wall calling it the Rolls Royce of border barriers. It's designed to absorb heat so it's extremely hot. The Wall is you won't be able to touch it so if they're going to climb they're going to have to bring hoses and waters water and we don't know where are they gonNA. Hook it up because there's not a lot of water out here. Do you think you're going to cut it with a blow torch. That doesn't work because you hit concrete. This wall can't be climbed. It's very very hard. We had twenty mountain climbers timers. That's all they do. They love to climb mountains and this was the one that was hardest and so begins season one of Mexican Ninja Warrior the if you forget the xenophobe and all of the racism. It's pretty cute how excited the trump gets about his wall. He reminds me of little kids bragging about what they've built out of Lego. Have you ever seen them. You know what it'd be like a super strong and dishes for the policeman in the camp break and destroy the lasers and the transfer window Mexicans Com. It's funny how trump signed the war with a sharpie like he's worried we're. I'm not gonNA know who built it is so insecure. No other president physically signs their accomplishments like Abraham. Lincoln didn't go up to the slaves like your free now wholesale wholesale there you go now. The problem for trump is that sometimes his enthusiasm actually gets them in trouble because he gets carried away and he says secrets that he's not supposed to one thing. We haven't mentioned as technology. They're wired so that we will know of somebody's trying to break through and you may want to discuss instead a little bit. General Samaritan not discussing it okay like that. That was a great answer. I'll just tell you they're wired okay. They're wired again. Tell me that's not adorable. Trump is so excited about the war that people have to stop him from expanding its weaknesses. There's a door that opens. If you cut the wire right here you cut the right way but we won't tell them as the red one we won't tell them and Kudos Kudos to that God. This is so slick there could be some meriden not discussing that sir. That is the nicest way I've ever heard someone. Say Shut up we should we should all start using that right yeah next time you tell your boss that you've missed work for a funeral and your co workers like what you said you were at the beach. You could be uh-huh there could be some merit in not discussing that Bob Alright. Let's move on to an alarming new report about air travel. It's like coming up. You may want to be careful about what you drained because a new study looked at the water safety from a dozen major airlines and those airlines with the cleanest water are Alaska Airlines allegiant Hawaiian Air Frontier and South West while the dirtiest water is a found onboard Delta American united jetblue and Spirit Airlines. Is that might surprise you right. The study suggests sticking with bottled water on planes and avoiding the coffee and tea. You can also use hand sanitizer instead of washing your hands in the bathroom turns out. If you've been drinking on a plane you'll bowels maybe endanger and honestly this was surprising to me because I always knew that the water in the bathroom wasn't for drinking right. I used to wash your feet but I didn't know that the water they serve you can also be dirty like how does it get that bad. Why do they take the hotels from business. Classes squeeze the water into economies that what they do. Here's like what does that taste so that is the taste of success and that list was pretty interesting as well. You've got an Alaskan at the top and then all the way at the bottom is spirit airlines and I know I know. Some people think spurts should be ashamed that the number ten Chen but to be honest. I was impressed that they have water on their flights. Normally only refreshments on spirit our own tears of regret spur alands Elon's. I'll watch is the least of your problems. Tomorrow Is September twentieth the Big Day when everyone is supposed to raid area fifty one and all those things just started out as a joke it turns out they might actually find something in the US Navy now confirms UFO videos made public by the New York Times and a UFO research group back in two thousand seventeen are the real deal images of that rotating thing captured by US Navy aircraft sensors locking in on the target commander. David Fraser saw it firsthand during training mission describing like a forty foot long tic TAC the ability to hover over the water and then start a vertical climb from basically zero up towards about twelve thousand on fee and then accelerate in less than two seconds and disappear is something I had never seen in my life. The Navy says it still doesn't know what the objects are and officials aren't speculating speculating holy. Shit I hope that's a UFO because it was a giant tick tech giant Texas flying around the sky but would you guys understand what's happening here. The US government is officially confirming officially that in two thousand seventeen the navy saw a UFO and I hope I really. I hope it isn't aliens because it would be really bad time for them to visit Earth. Can you imagine they'll take us to your lead and we'll be like ugh sorry. He's signing a wall right now. That's the headlines. Let's move on top story the Justin Trudeau Canadian Prime Minister and Hot Dad in the Disney channel movie ever since he came into office he has has been embraced as Woke Bay by everyone from liberals all the women and trump's family. I mean look at that if 'cause looking at trudeau the way Takashi six nine looks witness the protection and the reason those have been popular is because he's being a women's rights advocates right. He's been a champion for environmental reforms and he's been very reactive in connecting with minority communities but now we're learning that he may have connected with minority communities a little too much another major story this wanting to re election campaign campaign of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is suddenly in turmoil after a photo surfaced of him wearing brown face. These photo newly discovered discovered by Time magazine shows him in Brown face nearly two decades ago the picture from the two thousand two thousand one yearbook of a private school where Trudeau was. The teacher shows the then twenty nine year old wearing a turban robes and dark makeup. There are so many problems with this photo first of all. It's obviously never okay to do black face and secondly if you are going to talk in your skin at least get the color rights yeah. Rosen dressed as Aladdin. He's dressed. Latin doing black face. That's not the color of a ladder when he join and also to didn't even need the brown face to make the costume work. He's in a full Aladdin outfits. At an Arabian nights themed party. No one was gonNA seem and be like white skin the snowman frozen so time magazine published this photo of Canada's Prime Minister the stuff in Brownfield and in response to Hopton his magic competent stretcher press conference to apologize in two two thousand one when I was a teacher out in Vancouver. I attended an interview gala. The theme was Arabian Nights Way. We dressed up in eleven costume and put makeup. It was something that I didn't think was racist at the time but now I recognize recognize. It was something racist to do. I've always and you'll know this been more enthusiastic about costumes than is is somehow is sometimes appropriate to says he also wore black face for a high school performance where he's saying the Harry Belafonte Song Deo when I was in high school school I dressed up at a talent show and Sang Dale with with with with makeup on this is no good man because you realize what happened here. Trudeau came out to apologize for one black face and ended up admitting to more aw he's like. I did Brown face Aladdin and I did black-faced when I sang the Song Dale and now if you'll excuse me daylights coming and me one goal it's funny. It's also funny how Trudeau says he only did this because because he's more enthusiastic about costumes than is appropriate because besides being problematic it also sounds like Justin Trudeau would be the most annoying person on Halloween alouine. It was like if he commits that much he's wife is like Justin. Have you seen my keys like me. Not Justin me how how have you seen my keys. It keys hopefully ductile and look and look to instances of blackface would be bad enough but it turns out we call this a black face controversy anymore because apparently trudeau has been going full body video uncovered by Global News which which has been verified containing images of Liberal leader Justin Trudeau in black face makeup gets pretty grainy. We are looking at Justin Trudeau in this video you you can see that he has black face makeup on its covering his face neck his arms and hands and you can see between the terrorism jeans there that he also appears to have the make-up down his legs as well he has on his like. He's wearing jeans but he still did the legs. This guy's is committed. 'cause most people do the face but Trudeau was like black neck black back black pussy and black crack. He's like I'm doing all all of its aside from the obvious offensiveness of it. Having black makeup on your entire body Muslim causes a lot of problems as well. I think about like the whole leaving makeup on doorknobs CBS. You're getting it on food. It must have been terrifying for any white person he met who didn't know he was in black face 'cause if you touch them then you leave a black handprints on them and why people panic and they're like. Oh my God. I think black people make other people black. Oh my God I heard about this on facebook so what the Canadian election just one month away. Many are wondering if this black face scandal is going to hurt you those chances of being reelected and to be honest. I'm just sad to see another black man. Being brought down breaks my heart the when you look at Trudeau and an old these new stories of black face coming out every day at some point we have to admit that this problem is bigger than and some people would like to believe from the governor of Virginia to multiple TV stars and every FRAT party in town. It seems that when white people get their hands on Brown makeup they just cannot help themselves so we need to treat this like the epidemic that is which is why today ladies and gentlemen. I'm proposing a buyback program to get black face off. The streets also think we need red flag loss few here your white friend talking about buying again after a week for the school talent show we stop that before it happens and for those people who already have a black face photo that hasn't come out yet. We need to have one day of amnesty or you can put it out online without getting cancelled and don't use this as an excuse to make new black face voters cast you white people old photos only don't abuse the amnesty today and last but not least we need makeup companies to start taking responsibility for the products. They sell clearly. These things are dangerous so from now on although makeup ads need to be a lot more like this. I WanNa make that's made for me. I WANNA make that speaks to the truth black person. I don't think you WANNA do that. No no and with the new all shame pallet I can find the shade that fits my turn. It's not just make it's I WANNA go is fresh prince for Halloween swear to God if you put that on okay so this color Palette right here. You're going to want to stay on this side head of the palate. Maybe at a long beach. You'd be be right here but that's about it. I see actually because other racism yeah yeah venti beauty days back everybody here the daily show. We just can't get enough of a good story. That's that's why we're excited to share with you a new daily sports podcast from wondering and the athletic that you're not gonNA WANNA miss. It's called the lead and it's for every type of sports fan who wants to go beyond the box score every weekday morning the lead we're bringing you one big story from the Athletics All Star Team of local and national sports reporters. Some stories will be a fresh. Take on a major news event and other episodes will feature an indepth look into what's been happening off the field from the story of how a terrible call last year's. NFL playoffs made the entire city of New Orleans loser minds to indepth interviews on mental health in Sports. The lead is your daily. Lens into the biggest stories of the day told by the people who write them the lead is hosted by Sportswriter Kavita Davidson and peabody award winning journalist under skelter who will take you close to the story through comprehensive perhaps reporting fascinating clips and exclusive interviews. You won't hear anywhere else. Go subscribe to the lead on Apple podcast or wherever you're listening to this right now you'll also find a link. The episode notes the daily show the future. It's coming fast and it's here now which means Ronnie Chang is back with another installment of today's future now trevor today. All world is in peril climate change on the rise and leaders uninspiring which is why right now more than ever. We need to come together and drake heavily. I'm talking the hot stuff all day erdei this entire summer. I've nothing but Spike Seltzer and let me tell you. It's the most refreshing way to get Hashtag hot girl Summer Okay Ronnie. I think he might have a problem with your drinking. No you have a problem with my drinking gay. In fact drink is the only thing going right in the world but now some tech assholes trying in a mess it up think of it as an electronic bouncer. One company is called patrons scan and it's us at bars and clubs worldwide. It's scanner information when you enter the bar. You're according to patrons. Scanner only collects your name date of birth photo gender and Zip Code. Why would you wanNA give all that information to a bar. Do you really really trust them. Guys is twenty nineteen. Thanks to facebook. Inflammation is already everywhere. Even starbucks has my blood type cup of Chino for Asian. Negative bounces another thing technologies messing up box the most important thing getting the drink ever. Have someone else gets served at a bar before you even though you were there before them a bar in London is using artificial intelligence to prevent that from ever happening again bars called five. CC heralded sons and the bartenders use AI artificial intelligence to determine who is next in line for drink assistant. GM uses a facial recognition system to put people into a virtual queue. Seriously people need technology to help them get served. I already have a system for that. Okay I just go up to the person in front and tell them the mom died then they run crying and running against his Greg Goossen Gatorade Ronnie. I company lying to people about their MOMS like that. You'll trevor in a bar. It's survival of the fittest okay if you can't get the bartender's attention and maybe you don't deserve a drink okay. That's how it worked for. Thousands of years the jungle is called evolution looked up and if you all bartender would think all this technology is going to make your job easier well think again welcome to the Tizi robot where the bartender never under pours never over pours either and isn't much of a conversationalist. That's the Barton Tony. The robot can make eighty drinks an hour just about any combination you like and never gets it wrong. The maker Shaker gracefully moves he's from bottle to bottle said to be modeled after the movements of an Italian choreographer okay so you're telling me these movements movements were inspired by an Italian choreographer more like a guy jacking off from the L. train right also who has his robot can make eighty drinks and our bartenders do more than that okay. Can this robot be. My friend can listen to my problems. I need a bartender will be like Ronnie. You're too good for your wife. Okay Ronny. Let me talk to your wife Ronnie. I'm going on vacation with your wife Rani. It sounds like you having problems with your marriage. You'll your having problems in my my marriage now. If you excuse me it's happy hour and I think someone's mom just died Ronnie. Chang everybody back. Includes in my guest. Tonight is a former. NSA contractor who in two thousand thirteen leaked classified information exposing the US government system of mass surveillance is new memoir is called permanent record and he joins US remotely from Russia where he lives in exile. Please welcome Edward Snowden. It would snowden welcome to the show. Let's jump straight into the book because I don't know how long you have in that secret hideout where you're doing this interview from. It's just my apartment in Moscow. Oh okay don't tell us where it is. I mean I don't want it. Don't trump dude. Come on some people call the Patriots others. Believe that that that you're a traitor. Do you think this book will change people's perceptions and what do you see yourself as when I set out to write this book. I wasn't trying to change opinions. I was just trying to tell the story of what has happened. and when I'm looking at like the change of technology and everything like that the only way you can get people to pay attention to something that has been an expert conversation for so long. It's so complex is to give them characters right so yeah. It's the story of my life but it's actually about more. It's a dual history of the change of technology and the change of the intelligence community over time when people ask me from a hero trader I say look. I'm just an ordinary person. I like you whistle. Blowers aren't like you know we we. We aren't elected. We're not exceptionally skilled. The thing that that that puts US awesome place the thing that makes disclosure matter are the facts. It's really about what you see rather than what you are so right. We're kind of elected by circumstance one of the things you talk about in the book in fact the first line of the book as you say. I used to work for the government now. I work for the public. What does that mean well. I didn't realize there was a difference. I grew up in a federal family. My my father worked for the government. My mother works for the government in the courts after after she worked for the NSA she actually still works the courts and they the government just sued me on the day. This book hit the shelves right so it was Orna Crime Touche yeah the Nice thing about that the book was not getting that much attention was like twenty five Machar's and then the government said we don't want you read this book. They said God Sousse note and as fast as you can do. Anything can't stop it. Stop It. Stop it and now we're number one basically every attorney general is the best the attorney general has come out and said that you were supposed to pass this book for view so as somebody who's worked in you know when the defense space as somebody who worked with government secrets you a mentor submit this book to them and they are saying they would have pasta. If you just followed the rules widened you follow the rules. Okay well first off. I am a noted rule follower but well why they are technically right right. There's no oath of secrecy. A lot of people think there's an oath of secrecy. There's an oath of service agencies. Not The government is to support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic but there is a secrecy agreement and that's what he's talking about. It's called standard form three twelve and it basically says no after I know all the secrets awesome. I know where the aliens are. I'm not going to tell anybody about it. However if the thing that you see not in your secrecy agreement conflicts with that oath of service if the thing that you see is that the government itself the agency itself is actually violating violating the Constitution won't now you're kind of screwed and then if you try to explain what happened and if you write a book about how it happened and how we get out of it and then you're supposed to send that book to the CIA and let the CIA kind of Edit Your Life Story. Would you do that I would not. I can safely say I would not right. Where do people go so then. Where do we go from here. I mean you became infamous. I four spilling the secrets. People now know about mass surveillance but now we live in a world whereas you talk about in the book surveillance has so many levels to it. You have have institutions that surveilling us. We have private companies. You know surveilling us you see breaches from everyone equifax to facebook what can and people do to protect themselves and their data always the something that we should just give up well so this is a lot of people ask me this and they want like sort the Edward Snowden operational security guide for like how I would use a phone or how I avoid surveillance but guys is. I don't want to live like me. You don't want to have ordinary people fighting arms race against the most well resourced intelligence services on the planet. You don't want ordinary people trying to out engineer senior these technology companies that are basically earning more money than anybody else on the planet that's not reasonable. It doesn't make sense and then when we look at what's happening in Congress Congress is like all will will pass them by the way the United States is one of the only advanced democracies on the planet that doesn't even basic privacy law. Everybody's like Oh we got a privacy law the Fourth Amendment Fourth Amendment obviously very dear to me. That's what I stood up and really burn my life the ground over but the fourth amendment only restricts the Operations Parisians the federal government and the state government doesn't do squat for you against Google and facebook so they say data protection laws right and we've had advances since two thousand thirteen. More communications are encrypted. Now you gotTa Cricket Messengers We've got laid lots of ways to be safe for right but then we talk about what all these guys are doing and how they're monitoring all US they data protection laws but the problem with data protection laws is that it presumes the data collection. I was okay and that's the problem as you might have been realized. I was flipping through your memoir before this because that's kind of what spies do you wrote. You wrote actually really movingly about something struck me. It was kind of similar to one of the chapters in my book mine was it's called the boy and it's about how I am in my final position working directly with the tools of mass surveillance. I can see anybody's emails. I can see what you're texting back and forth you know the guys that are working to left and right at me are turning their monitor to show me nudes of the wife one of their targets and they say a bonus but then I see this picture it was actually video of a child in the lap of his father and you know it's like a toddler there smacking on the keyboard and they don't realize what's going on but it kind anik glance at the camera and I felt like he was looking at me. I mean this really shook me because when we're talking about surveillance we're talking so much about abstraction. We're talking about things that don't feel real right and when I was looking at yours you mentioned buying a camera at some point. There are so many times you know you get. An Electric Razor doesn't really bother it doesn't strike you as anything criminal right but the camera inside of it that contains people's memories in their lives right. You realized that it wasn't a thing that had been stolen. It was a memory and that was in the context of one person. I realized that the machine was technologist and say by all of the different parts that working with all of the systems they had stolen and were stealing not just one person's memories they're stealing everyone's runs everywhere all the time and they still are right now and so. I got up out of the chair and you know I didn't try to burn turn down the NSA. I DIDN'T I've published zero documents. I gave them to journalists and there's a long complicated thing in book about how and why and where the lines are but I wanted not to say. This is the way the world should be. I wanted to give it to you. I wanted to say this is what's happening and it really elite guys. The question for you is how do you want to live. We are today being used against the future. We're being used against our children. Everything we do. Ooh Now lasts forever not because we want to remember it because we're no longer allowed to forget so then when people read this book and people read through through the life of Edward Snowden and what you had to do as you say burn down your life to expose these secrets some might say will Edward why don't you come back to the US us and then just fight you know the legal system and prove your case you know and you've you've said previously you can't do that because some of the information you need to fight your case. Is something something that they would not allow you to use in courts but you you at a point now where people know the name of the book is going to be out now. Do you think you would take your chances coming back to the US and hope that one juror would see your point of view or are you just living in Russia now forever. Is that Your Life No. This is a great question. My ultimate goal will always be to return back to the United States and I've told the government actually from year one that I only had one condition for returning and that's that I could get a fair trial. Now people go what's fair trial. What does that mean. and I think that's actually not that hard question. There were two questions that come up in this case. one was the law broken and that's not actually really particularly interesting question because the law in this case simply was classified information given to someone who is not authorized. I received it which is basically any journalist. It's the public it's you. It's everyone who did not know that their constitutional rights were being violated because that was the secret but there's another question there which is okay if the law is broken was justified and think about this it you murder order someone you can tell the jury will. They were trying to kill me. It was self defense. The jury can go well. Yes they did break the law yes. They did murder someone. It was justified. The government argues that you there is no justification for telling journalists no matter what in fact they forbid the jury from hearing why you did what you did. You cannot voice this and don't take my word for just two days ago the day before my came out. There's a whistle blower lower by the name of Daniel Hale. He's in US prison right now. He was arrested for giving documents that were classified to journalists about the US drone program extrajudicial killings and the United States government just filed in the same court that they're going to charge me Eastern District Virginia they just put put a complaint of filing before the judge that said we demand that the court prohibit the jury from hearing and we prohibit the defendant from saying why why he did what he did. That's relevant should be distracted with Bryson's so I mean that that makes a lot of sense and so you're you're in a serious serious predicament right now. The book is going to come out you know the US government's going to fight not we if we do not get the money from the book they can stop the book from coming out but you on Russia where you've lived for a long time now you seem to be in good spirits which is interesting for someone who's been in Russia for this long like like what is what does someone do not a fan of surveillance. Russia's a weird place to be enjoying your life. Is there something about Russia's no is is I like cool spots in Russia that more people need to learn about is that where Edward Snowden goes in show so Moscow is actually a lot more like New York than you might think for good and bad there. The problem is the politics in Russia. The Human Rights Record Russia are terrible and a lot of people. Don't realize that in this extensively the book I didn't choose to go to Russia. I was on route to Latin America. The United States government cancelled my passport and then when I was trapped in the Russian airport I spent forty days stuck in an airport because I wouldn't cooperate with the Russian authorities. I don't know what the longest layer you guys have never had but forty days that was not the best part of the time. I've spent in Russia. I play for twenty seven different countries around the world places like France Germany Italy Norway Way and every time they got close to letting me come the United States government would call their foreign ministry and it would be then then the vice president or the secretary of state notes. There will be consequences if he led. This guy doesn't matter if it's legal doesn't matter if the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says he has a right to seek an enjoy SILOM silom. There's GonNa be consequences when I say what they are but there will be punishment and so what I ask you guys is you would think right former. NSA former CIA yea like the last place on earth the government would want me to be is in Russia working hard to keep me here and I think the reality there's just a convenient political that will never go away well. You are truly one of the most interesting human beings on the planet because you've lived one of the most interesting lives on the planet but one thing that really struck me from the book is I think a lot of people don't realize how young and normal you are and were before this happened to you like you're just a a young guy who likes computers and play. Video Games and I know that you you actually have to pirate games because you can't use a credit card because then people can track you so like what games are you. Are you like a fortnight person are you games does Edward Snowden play. I played fortnight recently and I I spent like a week on it and then I got really mad because like their matchmaking system and they just put people who don't know what the hell they're doing. The Greatest Oems uh-huh and I'm like come on come on thirty six years old man. I can't keep up with these twelve year old. Well you know I just want to say thank you so much for your time. The book is illuminating I think everyone has benefited from what you've done before you go though I do have one question to that to that regard. Do you think you've made a difference or do you think you've just it's been a big story like is data safer. Has the government changed his tactics or was this offer nothing. Do you live in Russia for for nothing offic. There's no question and this is covered in the book. It's actually the final chapter is sort of an overview of what's changed. There's no question the entire structure of the Internet has changed since two thousand thirteen the world's biggest technology companies good and bad for privacy have re engineered the kind of protections that we experienced that you don't even see simply because they realized the government was sort of going in undercover darkness and helping themselves to the buffet without anybody noticing our laws have changed our international standards has changed but the most important thing and and this is what I think people forget is you don't look for some guy to come out of a building and save the world that that's not how life works what two thousand thirteen did the most important thing that no one can ever change is before two thousand thirteen the idea of mass surveillance people news possible possible there were technologists academics and people who suspected this was going on but it was kind of a conspiracy through because it was a suspicion and that distance since between suspicion and fact is everything a democracy that is all we have in a free society because we can't agree on what is happening. How can we decide what we should do about it. Government in democracy derives its legitimacy from the consent. Eh Governed and the biggest problem twenty thirteen was that consent is only meaningful if it's informed and they lied to US Edward Snowden awesome thank you so much for joining us on the show is available now and it's no never the daily show with Trevor Noah Years Addition Watch the daily show weeknights at eleven ten central on comedy central and the comedy central watchable episodes and videos at the daily show dot com follow us on facebook twitter and Instagram Graham and subscribe to the daily show on Youtube for exclusive content and more. This has been a comedy central podcast.

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#143 Tech Power & Manipulation (with Brittany Kaiser)

Under the Skin with Russell Brand

11:52 min | Last week

#143 Tech Power & Manipulation (with Brittany Kaiser)

"Hi I'm excited to share some conversation we Brittany Kaiser. Britney is the former business development director of Cambridge Energy Subject to the netflix original documentary hack. He's CO founded. A nonprofit lobbying firm that's helping people are controlled their own asset. She's created this other thing on your own data. She's a good person. She really switched on human being now. What do you WanNa? Say as well was. I should go book Code Target A book about if you've been talking eight. Now, what was that book about again? Come find that bit going to be about all of this stuff. Isn't it being on the inside? A whistle blows inside story of how big trump the face facebook broke democracy and this conversation Brittany, who damn good in view and made took about Mark Zuckerberg. And Edward Snowden to. Figures flung up by either digital cyber tech world. One hero and one. Very powerful baron of cyber territories heavily in hope you enjoy it. If you like this by the way you should subscribe to luminary, that's where under the skin is housed. There's loads of fantastic original shows, not only under the skin with me but Karama on their. He's brilliant podcast. Lows of brilliant people Lena Dunham is on there. Do I never people there on the Django. Well you guys I rang razzing Mackenzie. That's right. Why don't you do some research? You can get subscription for two dollars nine nine every month. Theo, Rivera and plan plus a seven-day free trial to get. You started visit Luminary podcast dot com. Start Your free trial. Not Available in Oman. It's subject to your local currency. You might be on a pirate ship paying in the balloons, you might be on the moon paying cheese. You might live deep under the sea in pay in crap close, but you should know there is a close not available in newmarket subjects. Liquid cards attempted apply. Trying to achieve quality with the annihilation of Calgary. All successful route. That's exactly right in this era where it turns out, they were. Spin neath the surface of people with Maya of the ideas that find out on the history creatologist. Welcome to Russell brand. Under this game. See Mark Zuckerberg. Feel like then you sometimes meet tycoon, billionaire, people, or even president so permissive. How come you? How come you like so like Mark Zuckerberg is it. Do you think like a bully that founded lucky coin like because he's not just enough to. As the film famously explains to have invented, facebook is the subsequent activity. What how does that? How does one person find themselves in such a powerful position where they can literally say no to a sovereign government? So you know with mark. Unfortunately, it was kind of insidious from the beginning. I, if you see a lot of. See, the transcripts from his AOL Instant Messenger conversations with his friends at Harvard. He he would say like hey. I've got the data of thousands of students around campus I know where everyone lives I know. I know like in a relationship with whom they just give me their data fucking idiots whoa. Like this was the intention from the beginning, which was to take as much data from people as possible to use it for his own benefit, a really. You think that from the get go. This is a data harvesting machine. That's going to be very very powerful Robin, I. Everyone can hang out and be Powell's wasn't. They've never that no I think he knew what he was doing from the very beginning as not turned into, you know one of the world's largest data behemoths, but you know facebook isn't just data company. It's an influence company. And they have the ability to influence. You know I suppose up to two billion people, although probably have members are bought. All right. We can really influence about. You can tell exactly what to do. Yeah, exactly you know. If you feed enough data into the algorithms than maybe they'll become positive instead of just trolling everybody for a living, but you know that's that's not how artificial intelligence works all the time. And everything. About what is your perspective on C. in that program or film? Rather like remember. Maybe it's season for the Edward Snowden documentary the bit there's bits of when I think there's literally sound recordings of him when he's I. Dealing with the Journalists Glenn Glengarry modern all them law like the. In these. These phone. They listen to you through this right now. Get out my route like he didn't. This matt state like a wizard or something like concede different layers of reality like. Do identify with that, and what's your perspective on him? Generally and at my perspective on him as well as many other whistle blowers is that they're heroes? You know I going through the process myself of what we call a crisis of conscience. It means that you have realized that you are in a situation where you are privy to. Some pretty bad things going on around you and if you're privy to that information, it means you've been a part of it. So you have a very. Scary choice music, which is. You. Know do I continue to stay here and keep my mouth shut. Or. Do I jump off a cliff without knowing if I have a parachute. Or if it works. because. That's what that is, and you know people like like Edward an Julian assange and Chelsea manning have all lost their liberty. Wow because of the choice that they made. Yeah you know me and Chris Wilder of the lucky ones. We still can move around we have not been. Arrested as far as I know we haven't had. Too many altercations with people physically coming after us, but it's not the same for most. Whistle. Actually a lot of people lose their liberty. A lot of people are targeted for the rest of their life can never get a job again are physically attacked, have safety concerns for even members of their family and their friends and their business. So it's some. Pretty big decision to make and you know. Somehow we ended up having an issue that resonated with people and we got. So many people on board to this? You know wider campaign of how do we change things? How do we protect People's privacy? How do we protect people's data? Every protect our elections and everyone seems to actually care. which you know, I think the last time people cared about data was when Edward came out, and they were. They thought okay. While you know, it's the NSA prison projects like be scared of our governments. They didn't understand. About the company's side, the corporate side of this, and that every single thing that you use every day every move that you make every purchase, every step that you take is being bought and sold and recorded. And made into a multi billion dollar industry to exploit as much value out of you as possible and not give much of anything in return. That's didn't stick with. People with with Edwards words. They thought Oh government not owed the tools that I use in my daily life that are built by giant corporations that don't give a damn about me. Stop buying stuff and denounce your government and sell your own autonomous collectives. He seems to be the first to things. Easy steps to make. And like there is no political party in America or the UK that hey, adults stolen that dude to hear a man, so this just came out Russia I come home. We'll give you a medal. Chill like it's the Democrats under Obama or the current Democrats trump that guy. He's threatening out. Secure a no one's pro Edward. SNOWDEN. Right and yet is difficult to. Countenance your claim that he is a hero. Yeah well, you know there are very strict. Government. Agreements that he signed in order to take on a role of. Importance to national security and I totally understand the importance of those agreements when you find out that laws are being violated people's personal human rights, the human rights of people abroad which was originally what drew me to wikileaks when they released the Iraq war files I was. A war crimes researcher. At the time, so all of a sudden I'm being given primary source material about both international laws, human rights laws that were broken. flagrantly and. The people that are releasing this information are doing it for the public good you know you can. You can say the ways in which some of the information was released, put some people at risk, and I totally understand, and that they agreed to keep government secrets totally understand that. But when information you're releasing has. A wider significance for the world where people have the right to know the truth about you know. Laws being broken against and their rights being violated. I think that that should supersede. A lot of these other rules and regulations. You know. Daniel Ellsberg is incredible. Man I had the opportunity to to spend some time with. He. He now leads. You know a a very happy life. Even though he's had quite a hard time of it, but he released the Pentagon papers that you know created the Watergate scandal, or he didn't create it, but you know his releasing of of the documents allowed all of that to go down and because he was weeding government. You know. Eventually he's a national hero for sure. But somehow some of these other people are not getting the same sort of respect. I suppose because it would have a meaningful impact on the ability of the powerful to continue to operate with impunity, and in a sense it exemplifies that contract with exists between the government and the governing. We will protect you, but in order for us to protect you. You have to grunt us. You'll freedom, and that sort of at the beginning of in feudal systems and sovereignty requires that relationship. We will protect you. We need your taxes. This is how it's going to go down. I feel like I read at some point. There was no sort of provable case of any fatalities or casualties as a result of wikileaks. I feel like I read at some point. Join Luminary, garland report. CARDS DOT COM for more of this stuff at the potentially low price of two dollars, ninety, nine and Q.

Mark Zuckerberg facebook Edward Edward Snowden Brittany Kaiser Edward Snowden Lena Dunham netflix Oman razzing Mackenzie Calgary Britney AOL Chris Wilder Karama Cambridge Energy business development director newmarket Harvard
The Surveillance State, With Marcy Wheeler

Techdirt

54:54 min | 1 year ago

The Surveillance State, With Marcy Wheeler

"Hello. And welcome to the tech podcast. I'm Mike mass. Nick. Quickly the doctor. So we have to critical digital journalism. But the thing in the picture. Title. They to take control. Wake up to the. Doc. The tack. We almost never do this anymore. So I will just give a quick reminder to everyone who is listening that if you'd like to support this podcast, go check out patriot dot com slash ticker. We've now done over two hundred episodes of the podcast, and we have never had a single ad on it. So if you like the podcast and want us to be happy to keep doing it. Patriarch is a good way to show your support. Now, one of the topics that we cover on tech for quite a bit is the nature of the surveillance state and the ever encroaching powers of the intelligence agencies. This goes back, many, many years even pre Edward Snowden as the government's abuse of the internet and other technologies to do surveillance, and what we believed to be violation of the fourth amendment has long been a major concern. But part of the problem is that the intelligence community has a long. History of defending its position in the most misleading ways possible while lots of people like to insist that the intelligence community just lies about everything with abandoned. I think that that is rarely true more frequently. They say things that are technically true, but in reality incredibly misleading sometimes this involves inventing new definitions for words, sometimes it involves selectively misrepresenting details. Knowing that most people will assume that they meant one thing when they really meant something else. Our guest today, however is not most people. Marcy Wheeler has been writing about this stuff for just as long if not longer than we have and is famous for her ability to not just more accurately parse the purposefully misleading statements of the intelligence community. But to also have what appears to be photographic memory of other documents and statements tying them all together and ways that highlight what is really going on? And where the misrepresentations may be if she wasn't so damn good at revealing what the spy agency's were trying to hide she'd probably would have made an incredibly good spy herself. Marcy, welcome to the cast really awesome to be on. Thanks. So let's start by talking about section two fifteen which was one of the programs that was revealed by it's not in the documents that he released and that involve the intelligence community slurping, basically all phone data records of modified of that program is up for renewal and recent reports suggest that the community has stopped using it despite years of insisting that the program was vital to national security. So let's talk a little bit more about this program. And see if we can start from the beginning. What was it originally designed to do? Well, I should clarify that section to fifteen is the authority. It does maybe three different kinds of things. And the phone dragnet is just one of those things. So it started back in the nineties as a way to give the intelligence side of FBI the same kind of subpoena power that you would get with a D order. So in other words, you know, you can go and get phone records or you can go and get you can subpoena business that. There were concerns that the F B. I couldn't do that in secret which is nuts because the orders never become public. And therefore this authorities great. We just saw can you just explain what d- orders are for people who don't know. Well, d- order. There are the orders are without a are are done without a grand jury and then subpoenas are done with a grand jury. But those are ways to get massive amounts of data and information so documents. In the criminal context. And the argument back in the nineties was we need a similar function on the intelligence side. So that we can go figure out what suspected Russian spies are doing even though we don't ever intend to prosecute them. And we want to keep it super secret because these are Russian spies. So that was the logic back in the nineties with the and those head to be individual back in the ninety s and then in two thousand one with the Patriot Act. They said it doesn't have to be individual. It can be related to an investigation. In two thousand five they had to reauthorize it and congress tried to limit that authority by saying it has to be relevant to an investigation, and they tried to limit that thority. This is crazy nuts because in kind of in the wake of the original stellar win. Revelations by the New York Times in December of two thousand fifteen so I mean sorry in December of two thousand five that was like literally there were about to reauthorize the Patriot Act. Then all of a sudden this huge program was disclosed. And there was a delay reauthorizing the patriot and congress that let's put some limits on this. Let's let's require that it be relevant to an investigation. And this is one of those examples where FBI said I'm going to redefine relevant to in secret and make it mean all actually there they'd already done that in two thousand four, but but regardless because because what had happened was the government was moving parts. Of stellar wind. Which was this illegal surveillance program? Started by George Bush in the in the wake of nine eleven or arguably before and after people started people within DOJ started complaining about it. I they moved the internet dragnet side in two thousand four to the Patriot Act and then in two thousand six they moved the telephone side of the dragnet to patriot to Patriot Act, and and that thority was called to fifteen. So that's how they started trying to suck up all of the phone records. So you know, I call you you call me we're on for ten minutes. That's the kind of information they're getting as well as by the way, pretty early on in the in the Patriot Act process. They were also getting. Cellphone identifier. So sim cards in and device identifiers which is really interesting because the government said that they kept having problems collecting on cellphones, which is confusing because why would you be getting sim cards? If you're not collecting on cellphones. Whatever. So then so they're trying to make this a dragnet and actually one of the one of the issues is that the Pfizer court. This is one of the actually good things about the fisa court. The fisa court actually takes notice of what's going on not just in criminal courts. But even a magistrate courts around the country, and because of what's called the magistrature Bellion back in this timeframe in two thousand six a couple magistrates were like, you know, I don't think you should get location data with a D order. That's the thing. I referenced earlier, right? I I don't think you should be able to get cell phone location data. And so the Pfizer courts at that's interesting. Why don't you brief it? And there were several rounds of briefing that question, and I think in two thousand nine although I can't guarantee the date the Feis courts like we also don't think you should be getting. I mean by by two thousand fourteen it's clear that because there were districts in the country that required a warrant for cell phone location. The Faisal court had done so as well there were requiring full Feis award in any case that is one of the backgrounds. It's not. Just Edward Snowden that led to the re to the kind of relaunch of this program. It's also that because the government wasn't able to get wasn't permitted by the Pfizer court to get location data under this both program and because. The thority at the time did not include the requirement of assistance. In other words. Verizon, basically said, okay. You can't have my cell phone data, and they succeeded in doing that by saying we're not gonna strip off the location data. You can only get records. We already have and all of the phone all of the cellphone records. We have have location data. And therefore, you can't have it AT and T was willing to strip it off because in general if you have to choose who's more fund of surveillance grows and not your money is always best spent on eighteen. So so those two things Edward Snowden. That's his first disclosure in June of twenty thirteen says, whoa. We've got this dragnet of everyone's phone records. And that led to a lot of outrage. But it also gave the people inside government who didn't think this program was really working out leverage to to offer up a different way of doing it. And oh, get many chumps in the surveillance community to believe they were getting some big win out of it at well as well. So so big fight over that two thousand fourteen two thousand fifteen finally what's called USA freedom act because these authorities are always Orwell in name, right? Here. Here's more surveillance. Let's call it free to. They they basically what they did. Is you get a thirty four a selector. But this I mean, the target might be Al Qaeda or ISIS right now. And the government might go to the fisa court and say, here's fifty known ISIS recruiter. So that one all of a sudden starts office fifty then they go to an essay. And they say NSA give us all of the identifiers. You know, these fifty known ISIS recruiters us. So now if each of them has has three cell phones. Now, you've got one hundred fifty identifiers, and then you go to the phone companies and phone company isn't really well defined here. But you go to the phone companies. And you say give us all the identifiers that are in contact with these now one hundred and fifty identifier a phone identifiers. Right. And and and if you think about it they're going to they're going to give eighteen Verizon it or one else. Both the sim card and the device identifier and IP addresses that are known to be used and so on and so forth because that's the way in which you register a phone and the USA freedom act defined a call record a call detail record. This is nuts. Right. Okay. They defined it as a session identifier. Now, you tell me what the problem with describing a phone call as a session identifier. When you're talking about mobile phones. I'm actually not sure I know what you're getting out here. Well, I mean, the point is that like it all it has so long as it includes either a sim card or divest device identifier. Then it still counts as as a CD are even if no phone call has taken place. Okay. And the I mean, partly the logic the way in which they used to to to excuse that was well, we need texts. Oh, I see. Okay. So so, but were they trying to get the actual content of the text or the the mandate around the text? Okay. Okay. I mean think about it every time your phone Ping's. Right. That's another session identifier. Right. When you use your phone to log if when when I signal texture that's still a session, right? And Verizon may actually see I think for my my my theory, my working theory is that Verizon actually sees the key for that individual signal session. And so they can match the other key, right? If because if I signal you and I have the same key for that cigarette tax, right? And they can match it, and they can say, oh, Mike and MARCY think they're pulling a fast one. But we've just identified their texts. That that's a guest. But anyway, so, you know, as it was USA freedom act wasn't particularly narrowly defined because you can't describe something as a session identifier in this day and age because anything can be an and super cookies, right? Bryson super cookies also a session identifier. And so just just for background that which was Verizon had, you know, this thing which is referred to as super cook is which basically could identify all sorts of stuff that that people were doing on their Verizon phones. And and, you know, basically by by looking at all different kinds of activity, and it was much broader than most people thought variety was tracking people for back. Anyway. So that's all the background to say that in in the first full year of this stuff. I'm going to get the number here wrong. I think it was a hundred and fifty million CDR's that they collected and then in the second year. So this would be covering two thousand seventeen they collected five hundred million CDR's five hundred million session identifiers, and we know this because one of the elements of the freedom was that they did have to report that information. Is that correct? Kind of they're not reporting. The right information is I mean, they're supposed to like one of the things they're supposed to report is how many unique people that is that right? But for a variety of reasons, they don't track that. And so they just threw up their hands and said sorry. Like one of the things that the two fifteen debate will do this year is revisit some of the games that they played with transparency in into twenty fifteen and try and make it real because a lot of the categories along the way just aren't real. And they're, you know, they're kind of they're meant to distract. They're like, oh, look at this shiny object over here describing what CIA does. But let's hide what FBI does because FBI's where the business end is. So so it is. And so there is some confusion about that too. Right. So it is it's technically the FBI that is getting this information. But then they're passing it on to other agencies, right? It is this program. So I said there were three four this right there at least three and the FBI still uses it, and they use it a to do what national security letters can't do four intelligence investigations, which which which covers terrorists and spies and some hacking, but but FBI increasingly uses criminal process for terrorists because terrorism is always a crime. I mean, once you have a material support statue, you actually I mean, and this is something that I think the privacy and the law enforcement community should start talking more about once you have a material support statute, you really don't need to use his intelligence the intelligence authorities for terrorism anymore. And in fact, they don't the most recent I g report onto fifteen says this is pretty much mostly used for spies not for terrorists. And the reason being because terrorists you've got criminal process, then it moves quicker, and it's easier in the FBI will always choose to to take the path of least resistance. So so yeah. So if you have this suspected Russian spy Carter page, let's take Carter page. It's highly likely that they used to fifteen with him there. There was a time in probably is still the case that if you have been approved for a content warrant, as we know Carter page was then you're kind of automatically approved for a two fifteen order, and that means that they can use to fifteen because right? You're getting the content any way they can use to fifteen to go. Get business records to go Bank records to go. Get your hotel. Stay records to go. Get your storage records to go. Get your in addition in since two thousand nine. Some of the tech companies have said, we're not a phone company. And therefore, you can't use the national security letter to get our toll records, meaning when I E mail you, right? That's different than when I phone you. And the, you know, the googles of the world presumably said, you can't use national security letters for that application anymore, and that's increasingly done unto fifteen orders. So those are the those are two of the three main functions to the FBI's USA that. So generally going to collect information on suspected spies getting internet meta data that they can't get otherwise. But by the way, think about some of the things they might be getting on internet meta data because it's not just like the government loves to confuse you and make you think they're only collecting Email meta data. Right. And you do so much online. Generates meta data. I'm going to take. So the government today unsealed a bunch of the criminal process used against Michael Cohen and Kim there they show the content orders that the government used multiple times serially over and over again. Hey, Google gives us everything you have on Michael Cohen. And I and I really encourage everyone who listens to this. Because you all care about this to go read those because you will. I mean, you all know, the Google is an information suck right? Apparently Michael Cohen didn't use Facebook because we don't see any of those. But you go read it, and it will terrify you. I know this and I read it this morning, and I you know, because they get things. I mean, of course, they get your entire search history. Of course, they get all of the IP address as you log in from an any of the identities that lug in from that same IP address. So, you know, if the FBI is coming after me, which they probably have then they're also going to go after my spouse because he and I use the same IP address. Yes. Then there's cookies they're getting all of the Google cookies. Imagine all of the cookies Google has on you. And all of the things that tells about you, anyway, go read those it'll terrified. And so, but but under what a thirty were they getting all that information that was criminal that was that was actually search warrant. Right. So that that that at least has at least some fourth amendment due process associated with it. Right. Some of these things they get the IP address again because that's meta data. They get the IP address with just a D order. Right. So they would have. And they did we didn't see those with. We saw some of those with Cohen. But we didn't see all of them. You know, they would have. In fact, it's sort of interesting because what happened was Muller was investigating Cohen and said, hey, s Dan, y you take this other stuff, and they bumped it off an ST NY. I got a D order for for the Google account. And then without having looked at the content that was already in Robert Muller's possession said. Oh, okay. Here are the phone calls that I'm interested in. Now, I can use this to go get probable cause for these other crimes that were going to investigate Michael Cohen. And so that's how that's how Muller's been handing off all of these, you know, kind of burgeoning investigations across the government is he finds it. He says, hey, Dan, y you got some stuff here and SDN y goes through this process to get their own access to the data. And then after I'm sure SDN y rated Cohen than Muller did the same to get all of that data back to him. So it's. Thumping around the governor that right? Anyway. Yeah. Read those Google things because because boy duck duck. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. No there is there is a lot of information collected. And obviously. Even in cases, when it's just the just the meta data. He says in quotes, it can tell an awful lot about you know, what you're doing what you're searching for and and you know, all different kinds of activity that that when put together can paint quite a picture. So so let let's move onto. There is just the recent New York Times report about the intelligence community, supposedly no longer using the to fifteen which I got I better. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I I will say that. I had not gone. I mean, I had been doing some work onto fifteen before this. And and some people were told that this was going on. I was not one of those people because they never tell me these things now I can accuse them of hiding information from me, even well like, Rebecca Richards. I was I was in contact with her and she was pretending to like me. This crazy, Rebecca Richards NSA's privacy person. And she didn't like me. But anyway, she was pretending even well, she wasn't telling me, but she was telling other people that they so what had happened was last year right after the government had to admit that they had gotten five hundred million million of these CD our records under the under the phone drag the the new phone dragnet, then they issued an essay should release and said we've destroyed it all and NSA never does that unless they've basically broken the law, and there are a couple of instances where they very quickly destroy everything. They they they did that in two thousand eleven when they were getting content as meta data that they should not have been getting on on the internet patriot program. But this so they destroyed everything, and they basically I had thought maybe they were getting location information. But Susan Landau who you should always read how to peace in law fair the other day that says they were probably getting unrelated contacts because of a problem with the SS seven. Program, and she's a technical genius. So once she writes up her paper on that. Then we'll all be smarter a seven that's like SMS related thing. Is is how cell phones talk to each other. It's really it's really vulnerable. There have been numerous right? Yeah. I mean, it's it's it is for years. Basically the telecommunications industry were like, oh, who cares? If if anybody can break into this system, we trust everyone on it. And back when there were only three or four telecoms in each country that sort of works, even though everyone knew that not having a secure SA seven system allowed. You know allowed you to spy on everyone else and everyone else to spy on you, unless the providers kind of hardened their own SSN system within their own country. And but now because Teluk what counts as a phone company. Remember, I said before that no one really is defining phone company anymore. And what counts is the phone company has proliferated. So that means all these other people have access to the seven system, which makes it really easy to spy on people. And it's very insecure. And and whatever Susan will soon enlighten us with also has some technical problems. And therefore an essay was getting completely unrelated people, and oh, by the way, this entire program is sort of an eligibility thing. So, you know, it's it's the NSA's way of finding everyone to degree from from a suspected terrorist. And and once you get identified as part of that, then you get sucked into NSA, and they can do other kinds of analysis on you so in and of itself, that's a question. You know, we should ask whether in this day and age where white supremacist terrorist is frankly, a bigger threat at this point than ISIS. Whether we should have this. Asymmetric system in which the FBI actually does a pretty good job of finding white supremacist terrorists not all of them. But you know, without all of these enhanced tools that they happen to get with a Slavic terrorists because there's an international component. And they don't actually pursue the fact that there is an international component increasingly with white supremacist terrorism. Has there wasn't the New Zealand attack? So. Anyway, that's a that's a distraction. But no, it's all interesting. So so anyway, so back to the this. So what's happening with the two fifteen program. And and the report that it's no longer being used in this way. So so they destroyed it last June. We're beginning. We and other people beginning to look forward to the to fifteen report, and then Kevin McCarthy's national security staffer goes on law Farren blabs that they're not using it. And haven't basically he said six months, but it sounds like they never resumed using it after the after the destruction of the records last year again looking back at what happened in in past problems on similar problems. My guess is that NSA hasn't found a way to do it such that it is useful and has found a way to do what they want to do using other means or found a way to proximate what they want to do using other means and one thing to know is I mean, so one of the one of the issues, and this is a point that Susan and Charlie savage when he wrote the New York Times article, you know, who who who makes phone calls anymore, and and what's smart terrorists. Use variety SMS system. Right. Right. So you're really talking, and I I've said this multiple times. What is it? What is a phone anymore? Right. My phone is a computer that can work either on telephony lines or on, you know, via WI fi on internet lines and those lines intersect. Anyway. And you know, what is the distinction between these things anymore? But. Charlie suggested. And Susan suggested that the point is that terrorists aren't using phone calls to organize anymore. So what's the point? And my guess is that they can substantially do what they were doing with twelve triple three with the authority, which is kind of inherent presidential authority, which because of the way the internet works. They can get a whole bunch of information overseas, even though they're collecting on domestic activities. So so let's let's dive in a little bit on twelfth triple three, which is the this executive order. It's a Reagan signed executive order and at at some point. And I'm sure you probably knew this before everyone else as well. But you know, a few years ago, a former State Department official basically said everyone talking about these other programs are missing the big picture, which is that the intelligence community. Is using executive order twelve triple three to basically suck up everything overseas. And so the the as my understand the program and feel free to correct me is that it more or less says the intelligence community is free outside of the US to suck up. Whatever information it can get its hands on. And that includes an awful lot of stuff even stuff that is nominally communication within the US may travel outside its borders briefly, and that allows the intelligence community to to suck up all of that information, and it doesn't even have to travel outside of the borders. And at new remember one of the other really interesting add Snowden disclosures was that the NSA was getting Google and Yahoo data from their servers overseas. Right. So because Google and Yahoo mirror their data around the globe. So that wherever you are. It's not gonna take very long to get your Email or what have you? It means. That entirely domestic data is available in servers overseas. Right, right. So it doesn't even have to transit overseas and a great deal because the seven thing I talked about a great deal of the phone records that the government might want anyway is available from overseas. And so actually in two thousand starting in two thousand nine as the government was as as the Fisk started catching the government misusing some of these Patriot Act authorities. The government did something that was part of stellar win. And then had been shut down and then started being resumed. This is nutty. But I think Albert Gonzales delayed it from being resumed. And so they got rid of Elbert took solace. And then they put this into place. So so it used to be you couldn't chain through Americans. You couldn't do twelve triple three analysis on Americans. So if you get my meta data back in the old days. Once they identify that. I'm an American you gotta stop, and you also can't figure out like if I call my Irish mother-in-law and then call my Irish brother-in-law who lives in England. It's interesting that my mother in law, and my brother-in-law both talked to me, but because I'm in the middle there and the old way you weren't able to see that I had called both of them. But starting in two thousand nine Tennessee started being able to do that. And and they said, well, it's just because we want to chain through or because and this is a legit use. Because we need to see how foreign hackers are hacking through US identifiers, right? So if you're going to hack the Pentagon, I mean, the DNC hack, right? A lot of that infrastructure was domestic sure, and because it was domestic required certain kinds of process that you wouldn't require if they had just hacked right from Russia, and that would not get the same attention that if you had just tacked right from Russia. And so so it allowed people to get access to domestic meta data under twelve triple three. And that basically made it a lot easier to do a lot of this stuff with twelve triple three, and as crazy as it sounds the government actually thinks the Fisk is a pain in the ass. I like to you. I mean, actually, I don't I think that the Fisk is is I I will defend the fisa court on a number of issues, but we talk a lot about it being this big secret court, the alternative in many cases, there are two alternatives that we're talking about one alternative, and where a lot of the internet stuff, and we're probably this phone stuff has gone to is seven zero two. So it's a different part of FIFA it gets content and because you can get content. You can you know, back in the meta data off the content. They started doing that in two thousand eleven and by two thousand twelve they had moved a big chunk of the old PRT the old internet dragnet. They had moved that two seven. Oh, two with the advantage that these Patriot Act authorities were at least nominally limited to terrorism cases because that's what Michael Hayden could go to congress and scream. Oh my gosh terrorism. When in fact, they really wanted to. Use it with spies and hackers now if you do it on seven, oh two they can do it with spies, and at least nation state hackers. And so I'm sure a lot of that move to seven zero two there's no there is never any court review. Of what NSA's doing with seventy-two, right? No, no defendant who has been identified using 702 has ever really gotten any review of it. Now, they've laundered seven oh two. Identifying defendants through 702 through they launder it back and forth through criminal process. So no one has ever gotten any visibility much less able to challenge the designation of some analysts sitting at fort Meade, saying, you know, I think Marci's Irish mother-in-law's a spy, which is crazy. She's very sweet not it's not at all badminton. I don't know that could be a sign I should interrupt and say, you know, I've told you this privately, but I'm going to say publicly now the only way I can get my spouse to read anything, Mike, you know, this is when you quote me on. So he never reads anything, I ripe he'll come home. At the end of the day is like, oh, I read I read. He's probably gonna hear me talking about his mom and. That's great spouse. Anyway. So so yeah. So, you know, some analysts for meat could say MARC's mother-in-law who is Irish and lives in Ireland. She's she must be a spy because you know, because she plays badminton. Well, and and and no one would ever get to review that. I mean, the the analysts boss would get to review it, the, you know, if the analysts was doing to target, my not very interesting conversations with my mother-in-law than you know, that would be that they might sometimes they catch that that's reverse targeting, but even the way in which reverse targeting is defined as is actually too permissive. So that's one way that it goes to the zero two black hole and that's available for like for for Google. We just talked about how much Google has on you and that stuff like it. So after you guys read that Google order think about the foreigners you talk to and know that the NSA can get all of that information on the foreigners. You talk to without a warrant. Right. And. So some of this is is the whole concept of parallel construction. Right. So if they do find this information using the seventy-two program effectively to avoid ever having to have that program challenged in court. They've they've figured out some other way that they might have gotten that same information, and sort of effectively say that that's how they got the information. Right. Is that a fair description? Yeah. There's a really cool case not it's not cool. It's a bad case. But the case that people should look at it's called kief garden. Lob who he was a Boeing engineer and some cowboy FBI agents said, hey, I read on wired that the Chinese are going after this this Boeing program, and I live in I live near a Boeing facility. So I'm gonna go find my own Chinese spy in this Boeing facility, not having any evidence. There was a Chinese spy in the Boeing facility and then latched onto this guy. Keith who was an IT guy. Had access to the program and was married to a Chinese American not realize Chinese American who had interesting relatives in China. And that was basically the substance of why they started looking at him, and my guess is it started on seven zero two and then move to criminal process to get his Google and Yahoo emails, and then move back to Feis it individualized Feis us so that they could go in image is hard drives and then moved back to criminal process on something entirely different. And he is trying to get at supreme court to to prevent that kind of thing from happening but worth keeping an eye on. But you know, 'cause in that case it was like it was like, hey, we're in search of a crime, and hey, this guy who's in an interesting location, meaning Boeing. Has is married to Chinese citizen. Who is a loyal baragan who happens to have really interesting relatives in China. And therefore, he must be suspect. Right. Which does not seem like the kind of thing that you would normally consider to be probable caused under the fourth amendment, right? Or probable cause of an agent who foreign power, and they kept going back and forth between the two. And so the sort of larger point here, and we're talking about all the different specific programs and authorities and things like that. But I think the larger point is the fact that there are all of these different programmes and authorities and that they're used in combination in ways that basically allow them to get almost everything that they want on you, and they sort of will tap dance around it until they figure out ways to get this information in the kind of information that we would think if you just look at the authorities, and the constitution they shouldn't be able to get right and the way in which it works because of the technology and because the geography allow this right now is if something gets shut down or if it becomes inconvenient to deal with the Pfizer court because the other place it's going to go. I said it was going to go to seventy to get advice. It's going to go is twelve triple three. And it's the same thing. There's even less review their right? If you're going to Google, and so both of those are less optimal than going through going. Through Fisk on the phone dragnet. And so that's probably what happened. So we could say great they shut down a program. But. You know, it also means that there's probably less review of of it going on now. And twelve triple three is also supposedly not that's not part of Congress's oversight. Right. Is that correct? Or is that generally, correct? They've they've kind of picked at the edges of overseeing it, then I think not with this supreme court as currently constituted. Although I gotta say Gorsuch is much better on this than people give him credit for. But and I think Sotomayor has really laid some groundwork for for doing surveillance work, but it and under Bill bar under the new Torney general. I mean, he's huge fan of of executive authority. So it it's a weird time and surveillance. Right. It's a weird time to be alive. But I. So congress is very reluctant to do this because they're afraid they're going to get they're going to get beat up on doing it. But they are have they kind of picked at the edges of doing it. The problem is in two thousand seventeen. The point of the last things Barack Obama did before authoritarian Donald Trump in crazy man took over was to give the FBI in any other agencies who can come up with a good reason for it to give them access to twelve triple three to limit amounts as twelve triple three data. But they could say, hey, like, I'm sure in the Russian investigation FBI called up an essay and said, hey, we're investigating Oleg Dir Pasqua. Can you give us all your data on their pasta? And you know, got sent over to be I and there are good reasons for that. But there's not enough review of that data, and how it's used in my opinion. And and as we have this discussion about two fifteen this year that should be part of the conversation. And frankly, part of the conversation should be what I said before which is that once you have material support, you should not need national security. Authorities to go after terrorism we should really sharply constrain what we're using these national. Security authorities for and think about I actually had I won't say who it was. But I had a very senior former intelligence person tell me last year that he thought we should start rebuilding the wall. You know, he thought that given what you can do with people with these national 'cause because the other thing about FIFA is they're going to use the thirties under Faisal that they're not gonna use a criminal warrant because the criminal warrant the defendant is ultimately going to get to see what kind of say hacking, you did of their phone on a national security warrant, they're not gonna get to see that. And so they're going to do far more aggressive things on a Faisal order than they are on a criminal warrant, and even this really hawkish guy said, you know, maybe we should start rebuilding the Walsum, and and those that should be where we wear the discussion goes is here as we reauthorize fifteen. And so, you know, it's funny. How? National security just sort of becomes this talisman for let us do what we want to some extent. But so so that that last point brings up the thing, which is that to fifteen is up for reauthorization this this year and so in December. So what is what's the deal there? So the deal because we know that parts of it got shut down as first trying to force the government into telling us what happened telling us how they got to five hundred million records. What went wrong, why did you shut it down? And do you really need this thorny? Anyway, the government always says we don't want to say, we don't need the authority. We want to have a means of turning back on once we can find a way to do it. But honestly. Through this entire phone dragnet, period, the entire one it has never proved to be. Critically important. And as I pointed out, we are in a point where it's crystal clear that white supremacist terror is just as dangerous to this country as as ISIS is if not more and the FBI they don't have a perfect record. But they have a pretty good record at cracking down on that kind of terrorism without the same authorities that they have with ISIS, and if they can do it with white supremacists terrorists without invoking what they should invoke, which is it is an international network at this point. But they're not doing that. In fact, they're doing far less of this network analysis that they are than they are even for other kinds of domestic terrorists. But if they're if they're if they're successful without doing that. Then maybe the fact is we don't need to network all of the Muslims in the United States in the name of terrorism. Bright. And do you have any sense of how congress actually feels about the reauthorization of the program? No, I know people have already started having conversations it's a brave new world because you know, there's so many new progressive members. But there's you know, some of the New Democrats are also see I spies. True true. There are people like ASEAN restricted to leave. And then there are the the several former CIF's or a democratic side. So so we don't know what it's gonna look like in house for one. And frankly, you know, the freedom caucus has always been real allies on this issue. But they've gone kind of crazy. That's an understatement. Right. Right. Right. My congressman is just in a mosh. And I think he would even maybe not say that. But he would acknowledged that the freedom caucus is not what they used to be. I think he's acknowledged that publicly. He is not. I mean, he he is a very principled stance on this stuff. And I certainly called out other members I believe the freedom caucus for for betraying their principled stance in favor of just supporting the president. Right. It certainly on other issues like authorizing the wall. But but yeah, so we don't know what's up with the freedom caucus. We don't know what's up with the New Democrats. And and it's a weird time in the Senate to so. Because again, it's it's a weird time. Donald Trump is crazy. Thanks to everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. So that will definitely be something. Interesting to to follow to finish off this conversation wants to talk about something related, I guess, but a little bit different which is going back to Edward Snowden, and the documents that that he passed on originally to Laura Poitras, and and Glenn Greenwald, which is sort of referred to as the Snowden archive that the intercept which is the publication started by those two hosted and allowed people access to and a few others have access to it as well. It was just recently reported that the intercept is laid off some of the people who were researching it emerged shutting down their copy of the student archive. And you have some thoughts on what's happening here. Yeah. I mean because I was formerly part of the intercept as a part time person in two thousand fourteen before the archive existed. And then I tried to do some work in the archive in two thousand seventeen actually to do some work in advance of the seventy-two reauthorization ended up doing a story that was influenced by the archive, but did not use anything from the archive on what I call the tour exception, which is an, you know, another it's another podcast. But, but but as a result, I was not I was somewhat recently in the are in the archives as currently constituted. And I will say that people really need to pre sheet that the intercept after their early days did a lot of work to make those documents secure and. And it is a tremendous legal and security risk to continue to operate them. And the intercept isn't making all the money that they'd like to make. And so at least the public description is that it became a cost decision because it costs a lot to keep that archive safe and accessible without becoming acceptable. Which is what which is what Snowden wanted right? I mean, snowed snowed. Want Snowden wanted it to be archived? It it to be reported on rather than free freely released. And that's what I think the intercept and people don't give the intercept a lot of credit for the extent to which they did this. That's what the intercepted a really good faith effort to to keep that those documents safe and accessible, but not to acceptable. And that costs a lot of money. So as they've described it they're going to stop doing that. And Glen has said he's looking for a new place to host it. And that new place is going to have to be willing to take on. Like if you if you move it to a university, right? It can't be like a library where anyone can go in and check out the books because everyone, you know, it won't just be journalists who have a good faith interest in in privacy who goes in to look at the library. It'll be other people who just want to see what the NSA was doing circa twenty thirteen. Right. And you know, and and Glenn has made it clear that he thinks that, you know, the the the type of partner that would make sense at this point is probably something like a university that doesn't definitively mean university. And I believe he stated something to effect of, you know, at this point, the archive is more useful as a sort of historical archive for research rather than for, you know, breaking news, you know, obviously. I mean there there. Unfortunately, like on top of all of the good work. They did protecting the archive. It was never a functional place aditorial. Okay can ever. And so that was an unfortunate balance because I would have loved starting in two thousand fourteen to use the archive as a counterpart to all my open source work on how are they using surveillance? And like I said in two thousand seventeen there were a number of stories. I mean, just as one example. When they shut down a certain function under seventy-two called about collection in twenty seventeen. Just just so people know because the about collection is actually a really important thing that I think a lot of people didn't fully understand, and you can again, correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that it allowed not just when they were collecting information. It wasn't just like if I if they were if you were a target, and they weren't just collecting messages to and from you, they might collect messages about you. So if I were to write to a colleague that, you know, oh, I'm going to have MARCY on the podcast that would be collectible under the program because it was about you, even if it wasn't it didn't actually involve you. Yeah. Although they still were just targeting on signifier on selectors, for example. You know, it might be that you forward an Email from me, and they find my Email, which is technically content of. Your Email, or it might be that you you send somebody Email and say call MARCY at seven three four, blah, blah, blah. And so that's the kind of things they were collecting, and they claimed that that was picking up a lot of Americans who were not otherwise targeted and they said, and they could never get it straight such that once they collected stuff they'd go back in and look at it. And here's the thing is that. I believe that the solution of shutting down about collection and then permitting back door searches on seven zero two data. This is all complex. But basically once you get the data the NSA, and especially the FBI will go back and look at it. And if you've collected on people who aren't targeted who aren't in communication with somebody who's targeted then you're collecting on a lot of innocent people. And then, you know, this data should not be available to you. You're basically getting free content. And but I made an argument that I mean, the government always liked to say, oh, yeah, we're we are targeting emails. We are only collecting emails, and that's not. I mean, come. And and so one of the things that I was trying to demonstrate in two thousand seven is the way in which they were targeting IP addresses. Again, read that Google thing for Michael. And the idea is, but I think people have an adequately thought through what the implications of them being able to target IP addresses are in this day and age. Okay. That and. Read that Google stuff. Yes. So just just was there anything else on the on the stone archive? I I sort of took off and attention, but just want that want people. I just want that I want people to have that background because you know, it is it is a frustrating state of affairs that the archive. So I never did that work. I never did the work to say, here's what it means that 702 can target an IP address and not just emails, and I kind of gave up in two thousand seventeen and now I've lost my chance. And so that is not just historical. It's important to help people. Explain the technical aspects of this spying, and that never was sufficiently done with the archive, and I think, that's unfortunate. So I hope it does get a new home. But I do want people to understand that that really the intercept did a lot of job, especially the people got laid off this researchers did a really laudable job at keeping that data safe. This an incredibly difficult job. Right. I mean, you have a lot of there are a lot of people who would want access to that who should not have access to it. Right. And meanwhile, you've got the FBI treating the intercept like, you know, like, they're they're themselves suspect, right? Just because they have a certain approach to journalism, which oh, by the way, the New York Times in Washington Post have matched. But the FBI still treats the intercept is uniquely suspect because they're doing journalism. And so, you know, that's that's the world we're in. And and and as Glenn tries to find a new home for that archive understand that he's got a challenge ahead of him because it is not an easy task to do. Okay. That is good. Good background good explanation for that that that I think has been lacking from some of the discussion of it. So I appreciate that. And I appreciate well. I appreciate all the work that you do. And and taking the time certainly to join us for this podcast and talking about all of these issues, which are always always relevant and always changing and more stuff is always happening on on this front, and I know that it is very very difficult to keep all of this straight. And you do that better than I think basically anyone and so so I certainly appreciate you coming on the puck. Spouse. There you go. Yes. Your spouse should read your stuff when when when when I well well to be fair. My spouse does not read the stuff, I write either. So I don't know if if she read your stuff, but it would not surprise me. If the same were true in some some extent start quoting. There we go. All right. Excellent. Again. Thank you very much for for having this conversation. It was really interesting. We'll definitely have you back on again in the future. And thanks to everyone for listening, and we'll be back week. Thanks for having. Does sound up to the simple. Someone who can repechage of the tack.

FBI Google US Edward Snowden Marcy Wheeler New York Times Verizon fisa court Mike mass congress Pfizer courts Susan Landau Fisk executive Michael Cohen George Bush
Ep. 65: How to Escape the Coronavirus Prison Camp

The Michael Cheney Show

24:32 min | 3 months ago

Ep. 65: How to Escape the Coronavirus Prison Camp

"The Michael Chaney show pumping unlicensed liberty and financial freedom directly into your eardrums. Here's your host Michael Chaney. Hello Michael Chine- hair on welcome to today's episode. Live and direct my secret underground bunker in the highlands of Scotland Salt Cidade weights who advanced Liberty Rona virus and also tracking modal Thorndike's and Edward Snowden on today's episode. So let's dive right into this now. According to piece I read on the BBC of all places they were basically saying now the the viruses so bad as killed so many people in the UK that it is exceeded the Outbreak of flu last major flu outbreak in twenty fifty eight. Well I dive into the data. Here naturally is very only slightly higher than the flu outbreak. In Twenty fifteen in the UK which makes me think. Why wasn't there a lockdown in two thousand fifteen and yet there is now so according to the BBC quote the Office for National Statistics data showed the virus was mentioned on three thousand four hundred seventy five death certificates in the week ending third of April. It helped push the total number of death scene in that week to more than sixteen thousand a record. High am six thousand more than expected at this time of year. So he's basically saying look. We've seen six thousand more deaths at this current time. So let's kind of infer that corona virus while not necessarily. They could be anything they could be linked to the lockdown. In fact it does go on to admit that quote but what is not clear is what else is contributing to the spike in death corona virus cases contributed just over half of the quote extra Six thousand deaths. It could be the cases of corona virus going undetected or other factors related to the lockdown and outbreak. You're having an impact such as people not seeking treatment for other conditions of mental health debts. going up. Well this is the kind of stuff isn't it is going to come out in the wash and a few weeks months when people look back on the dates. But we already know this. I've mentioned this numerous times. The other impacts of the lockdown including have depression suicides domestic abuse and Solon no access to health care people being able to afford healthcare not even been able to get to a hospital all just not picking up the phone and thinking. It's not too serious because of everything else this going on so even if these six thousand extra deficit talking about at the moment in the UK for this time of year even if all of those were suckled attributed to covered nine hundred and that would be a bit of a big leap of the imagination as we've seen before the way that they're reporting deaths in the UK us easily in many other countries around the world as extremely questionable to say the least so it could be that a lot of these deaths. Aw and the so-called extra deaths are basically down to lockdown effects and nothing to do with Kovac nineteen. I hopped over to one of my favorite resources during this covert outbreak. Which is the Euro emo emo website which monitors fatalities and excess so not average mortality but at mortality as it is in relation to an excess to previous years and had a look at the charts for all the European countries. Going back a number of years and you can see every soft and it seems to be every few years there would be a large spike and it was only the start of the year. You know end of Windsor going into the New Year and there was no real Spike for the current corona virus period in any of the countries other than Italy. That was lodger this year than any other year so to emphasize that again I looked at the data and for all the European countries I could see including UK. France Sweden Norway Germany all of these countries. The spikes from previous years because of flu would know smaller or greater than what aren't experiencing for Kobe. Nineteen so there was no No greater excessive deaths in Europe This year than it has been on previous years. When there's been flew out bright us. Apart from Italy there was a a spike this year for its which is highest. They are actually experiencing a greater number of deaths as spoken about many many times. They have a an average age is the second oldest population in the world for a country Average ten years older population than any other country in Europe. So of course if there's any kind of flu outbreak or virus type outbreak. They're going to suffer because of that. So that's the backdrop to all this for every country in Europe. Seems what we're experiencing right. Now is not unusual for a bad flu outbreak in terms of number of excess deaths. That's just fact. That's not opinion despite all. This was still in lockdown Measures a great Strict measures have been put in place. And now I'm governments around the world including the US and the UK a now looking at how to get out of this proposing Surveillance measures a cell phone tracking and possibly some kind of immunization. No antibody passable Bracelet all foreign APP cell phone APP depending on which repulsed raid as the the way out of all this now in the UK. The government as in many a year in Europe happened is working with a tech companies to get a mobile phone out That is GONNA TRACK CORONA virus cases. People have it people that Don track that movement to try and minimize the spread and enable people to go places. If they don't have it may be to restrict them if they do have a using. The mobile fence am so. This is the Health Secretary Matt Hancock in the UK said this is ABC. Quote about this quote. If you recall Manuel with the symptoms of You can securely tell this new APP at the APP will then send La anonymously to other abuses that you've been in significant contact with over the past few days of the series and all the data. A story about you goes onto say even before you had symptoms so that they know and connect accordingly all data will be handled. According to the highest ethical insecurity standards would only be used for National Health Service and Research. And we won't hold it any longer than is needed while let's get to know. His name is always good. When you get promise from the government you know you're in safe hands well. The Guardian reports illness naturally go access to the memo outlined the plans for this APP. They had to say quote. The government documents seen by the Guardian headed official sensitive and draft not yet approved suggest the NHS privately considered using the technology so identify uses goes onto say quote the memo stated the more controversial. The APP could use device. Id's which are unique tool smartphones to quote enable de anonymization if ministers judge dot to be proportionate at some stage and quote. It did not say why ministers might want to identify APP uses or on the circumstances. Doing so would be proportionate. That's interesting the minister they government representative here in the UK for health. Said yes. We won't be You know this is all anonymous. Don't worry we'll get rid of this as soon as we can. The official Piper that's going between members of government says we should have an option here to d. Anonymous is the data if required proportionate based on war says. Oh Yeah I remember. The government hereby declare. It's now proportionate measure to D- anonymous this data and track. Everybody individually unbelievable. They went on to say in. This memo quote added alternatives to building. Nhs APP included making use of existing APPS and other functions already installed on people's Phones AG. Google maps so they're trying to develop a stand alone APP for this this this unique to them but they're also saying that they could just use the data so it's already been tried and as we've seen before. Google has a willingly handed over this information over two governments so they can track again. Allegedly anonymous data aggregate data of where people are going to see. If they're falling lockdown orders. So is our only way out of this. Entire debacle is are there has to be tracked like prisoners like having some kind of tag on are ankle by in the form of a cell phone while probably again go into the Guardian quote research is in Germany. Currently preparing a mass study enhance into how many people are already immune to the cove in nineteen virus allowing authorities to eventually issue passes to exclude workers from restrictive measures currently in place. Yes this is Germany. I'm not gonNa make the obvious comparison but Germany is looking at an APP. That will almost act like a badge. If you like on a person sleeve that will enable them to go into certain places or not depending on what the badge say's continues. The peace guarding continues quote. Those who are mean could be issued with a kind of vaccination pass that would for example. Allow them to be exempted from restrictions on their activity said Jared Kraus's ahead of epidemiology the helm halts center for infection research. In Brown's fight. It goes on to say quote concerns have been raised that wider immunity passbooks games could incentivize certain groups such as young people who are falling into debt through lack of work to actively contract the virus in the hope that they can return to their jobs once recovered holy chanels. I'm not even thought of that. Reflects the way that this goes and we all need immunity a we all need antibodies to get out and to to free ourselves tight pie in the hunger games then maybe people will be actively contracting the virus. Maybe you'll be able to buy the virus through the black market on Ebay. Maybe they'll be spitting boobs and you know down. Doc and corridors at night and you know dimly lit s- nickel ways and paths wet. People have spit parties to get the virus so they can then immunity by survive and go back to work. Sales ridiculous could happen because of the measures they've been put in place. I found a really interesting piece on business. Insider tool can again a bow at tracking Individuals how governments Elstein to try people. We're going to talk more about this. In the Chicago Bulls are going to about Edward Snowden. Who's come out and given his two cents on the whole covet pandemic in government reaction to it. We're GONNA come onto the so. I bought this business inside. A peace talks about the US. In particular quote sources told The Wall Street Journal that Federal State and local governments have begun to gather and study Geo location data to get a better idea of how people are moving about in one example. A source said the data had shown people with continuing together in Prospect Park in Brooklyn and this information had been handed over to local authorities. The eventual aim is to create a portal for government officials with data from up to five hundred. Us cities. Wow so again something that we thought about something that we've spoken about in previous episodes decided with Big Brother. State and they tracking you everywhere. And then they reports it and they. The authorities use it to clamp down in issue fines imprisonment and restrict freedoms. Even more is happening. Right now is happening right now. Okay I'm going to come back to you with more including that interview clips some clips I have for you from Edward Snowden right after this short bright if you WANNA free e book that gives you the only one left for the little guy to create his own wealth and protected against taxation turmoil and tyranny you need to get over to Michael Chaney Dot Com. I'll show you how to generate extra income using the Internet and protected legally from the State get the Free Book. Right now over Michael Chaney Dot Com. Okay welcome back to the second half with me. Michael China the first half was also with the outbreak was also for make kind of Yes any who let's talk about. Edward Snowden Edward Snowden did an interview with vice us talking about how where a pivotal moment in history And we really need to act accordingly. Not many people talking about the whole privacy issue. Most people have focused obsessing about the virus in the deaths all and at the lockdown whilst all this is going on we all know there are measures in place to curb our liberty and to kill a Our freedom of speech our freedom to move around And our freedom to do what we want in life without being monitored this is what Edward Snowden has to say quote everyone is so hopeless and faithful and worried about today that we have really stopped thinking about what tomorrow will look like based on decisions tight. Today he talks at length in this interview. Again you'll find over advice About cell phone tracking and he was speaking in reference to various countries like South Korea China. A now many Western countries including the US the using cell phone tracking to trace movement of individuals infections. And you know people who are at risk and so and but he thinks he's completely bs on surprisingly. This is what he had to say about that quote. This level of contact tracing does not work on a pandemic scale. What's being built is the architecture of oppression. He went on to talk about how they can track your movements even without specific APP. Now I've spoken to people at length about this and they said Oh it's okay and I. I turn off location dates on my phone tossing matter. It won't do Jack Shit if you do that. Okay there's a number of ways and this is what snowden explained that they can track where you are. It doesn't even native specific APP number one. They can use cell phone towers. You know the towers you see it all around. I can actually see one out of my window here on a nearby hill. They use these tower using triangulation. So whenever you're out with your cellphone or even you know whatever you are with your cell phone. You are connecting to sell town. I'm the government can tell which shall tell gives them a rough conference of where you are and they can triangulate now. Obviously if you're moving between Cell Towers they know roughly why you are so. That's one way they can do it. Very roughly another way they can do it more accurately they can see which Wifi network you'll connected to if you're on the Wifi either your home or somewhere else. A public place or friends and family one of they're gonNA know down. They know why the Wifi network is because it has cooled and I peer dress which is a unique identifier which tells the government where Wifi is based geographically. That's another way they can find more accurately now. You might say well I'm never going to wife. I'm wondering about the St Farm just walking through this town through the city on driving. Whatever through a town. I'm not on Wifi. What does it matter because your your phone will still pick up the closest wi fi networks. That you'll that you're close to even if you don't connect them it has then. There is a list you know when you go to look at why settings on your phone. It will show you the nearby networks. You don't have to be connected to them for the government to know that information. They can see which networks you are close to so. It's fairly easy for them to do that. If if you're close to Baskin Robbins Wifi you're close to your McDonald's Wifi on the High Street they know roughly where you are probably within a few yards are few meazza's they can then map will this. They collected all map. It all out Using GPS data and they can work out pretty much pretty accurately way you are now what Snowden was saying about. This is the he was saying if they use the data from cell phone towers. It's really too rough. It's just to Proxima Terachi tracked lodge volume of people. Because it's okay okay. This one person is roughly around this area. But if you're talking about thousands tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands people that kind of level of detail is not enough and doesn't show people's movements accurately enough boy studies if people if they going to be using the other methods at the ones. That are more accurate. I the networks that you'll connected to or close to or even an APP on the phone. Then he said it's impossible to randomize or a non is it so it doesn't take a genius to realise which option which route the government's. GonNa take right. Are they going to hike the route that gives them less? Data a not. You know unusable data this anonymous or they're going to take the route that gives them the dates they want but is not anonymous. It's pretty obvious so what's going to happen about this. What does what's the implication of all this for the future because it's all case they will. Yeah look we don't want this but I can see is gone good side to it you know. I can appreciate that. There's a positive sizes because it could be used to track the virus if it's enormous and whatever I can see the benefit potentially but what about the future implications of this? Well this is what Snowden has to say about that quote. We need to make sure that the brakes that are being pumped are on the pandemic rather than our society. The emergency never ends it becomes normalized. Now this is an important point. You'll see you'll see this every day now in the media. I don't know if you've noticed this but the language that they use this. This idea of new normal protecting individuals shielded self isolation. They tried to position this in a way. The is softer than actually is that it is not dangerous. It's not forceful it's not authoritarian. It's a temporary measure. This is not something the after worry about is being dressed up in this very kind of woolly language that we accept it and we we go about our business in this as they say the new normal. It's just the new normal. It's not like an authoritarian dictatorship. We can only go outside of the house once a day. It's the new normal. And this is what they're doing because they want it to be normalized so that when wherein multiple waves of this wave after why does it will be because the lockdown as we said before will not kill the virus. It's just delaying the next even unless we're locked down eighteen months or until whatever the vaccine then there's GonNa be a second wife and a third and fourth and fifth song so that we get used to this and this is what snowden had to say about this kind of bleak but accurate quote as authoritarian spreads as emergency laws prolific. Right as we sacrifice our rights we also sacrifice our capability to arrest the slide into less liberal and less free world. Do you truly believe that when the first wave the second wave the sixteenth wave of the corona vars is a long forgotten memory that these capabilities will not be kept that. These data sets will not be kept nomads. A how is being used? What is being built is the architecture of oppression. So it's pretty clear. His opinion on this and his take on this and it's fairly easy to see where he's coming from. When you see the kind of laws that are being passed right now and the kind of things being done by governments around the world he then goes on to talk about technology and the emergency laws. That could be used down the line and how it could be used and again. It doesn't take a great stretch of the imagination to see them using the states or in this kind of technology down the line to determine who goes where segregating people working out. You know. People's Religions are because you can trunk. Churches people go to working out people's movements that demographic information using it for political you know piglets coal marketing. You know all this person's going to this event this type of event people going to rallies WHO's protesting his traveling. They're using it for you. Know Census Information Tracking criminals in Song. I mean as we've seen in China they've already used this technology to put people in Internment Camps and tracking you know movement of individuals that they deem undesirable into out of cities tying cellphone data with facial recognition software to recognize a certain individuals of certain ethnic groups and saying this too many in the city. Now we need to take action to remove them and put them in interment camps. That's happening right now K. It's happening right now. He's not George Orwell territory anymore. This is now not nine hundred eighty four so this is what could happen down the line with this with this date and we've all seen this. There's no way they're going to roll it back and stop using it. Same with a wire-tapping stuff that was done on the back of nine eleven it's been renewed renewed and renewed change tinkered with a little bit but renewed and renewed and renewed and so it continues a leave the final word for snowden illness quote these systems if we do not change them on not simply going to monitor our health they going to be used to make decisions for us on an automated basis to determine who gets the job who goes to school. Who GETS A home? Who gets a law and who does not so bad I mind remember. Your phone is a direct link to government has always been even more so now stay safe. Leave at home is your best option on. I'll see you on the next episode. You've been listening to the Michael. Chaney show create your own wealth and protected against taxation turmoil and tyranny over at Michael Chamie DOT com.

Edward Snowden Edward Snowden government UK flu Michael Chaney US Europe NHS BBC Michael Chaney Dot Com Michael Chine Germany official snowden illness Guardian Solon Google Thorndike National Health Service and Re
Risky Business #522 -- Alex Stamos co-hosts the show, reflects on Snowden disclosures

Risky Business

1:08:33 hr | 1 year ago

Risky Business #522 -- Alex Stamos co-hosts the show, reflects on Snowden disclosures

"Everyone and welcome to risky business. Your weekly information Security News and current affairs show. My name's Patrick gray slightly different edition of the show for this week. Alex Thomas is filling in for Adam Lor in the news lost most of you know, him as Facebook's recently departed chief security officer, Alex also served as the Ceasar at yahu for a time. But his security career stretches back quite a long way, he co-founded partners back in two thousand and four and before that he did some time with at stake the ad stike. Mafia is everywhere. It's really quite amazing. These days Alex is an adjunct professor at Stanford University. And he'll be joining me shortly to talk through the weeks Security News as well. As to have a chat about the Edward Snowden disclosures five years on this week show is brought to you by thinks canary big thanks to them for that. And instead. One of this stuff being on the show this week in the sponsor chair. They asked me to interview this week sponsor guest the customer, Mike Ruth, who is a security engineer with cruise automation. Mike did a presentation at a conference cold coupon recently all about automating the deployment of canary tokens at scale using some nifty CIC tricks. You'll be joining us after the news to tell us all about that. But before that time, of course for a check of the week Security News with good friend of the show. Mr. Alex Thomas, and Alex is Riley surveillance software company and group has been in the news all of the wrong reasons over the last few days, they look in pretty bad right now. Yes, negative headlines for NFL. And I think it's really going to have some impact on Israel overall, actually talked to some folks there, and I think the fact that Israel allows these companies to sell weapons to these not great countries like Saudi Arabia in the UAE is is really going to rebound on their server secure. Eighty industry overall. Just take a step back for a moment. And just talk about what's actually happened because we got a few things to get through here. I turns out that. And it's a group sold fifty five thousand fifty five million dollars with kit. I'm sorry to Saudi Arabia just before the the purges started. I mean, that's a really bad look, especially for an Israeli company. Yeah. It is amazing. It is amazing. What kind of bedfellows? You create when it comes to building Maur to go after journalists and enemies of the state does that look interesting to see what the priceless to fifty five million. That's a that's a pretty good deal for them. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of presuming. That's a that's the full package. The platinum deal. Yeah. But and now they have no control over what happens once it's out of your hands. It's in the hands of the Saudis, you know, they're really going to get themselves tied up into issues that I think they never expected that that they would be pulled into publicly. Well, I think they kinda should have expected that right? And of course, Saudi Arabia's crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman has been going off to enemies pretty hard with sane. You know, even a journalist very very public. Kashogi? Oh, Khashoggi depending on who you. Who's saying it? But it turns out some of these NFL group stuff was deployed against some of his close associates. So it seems through through work by citizen lab and other organizations. I mean, it seems pretty obvious that this stuff wasn't being used to target people who posed a real security threat, right? Yeah. There's always this goal of both NS group and their customers to say that this is the quivalent of like the FBI deploying what they call it network investigative tool, but these are not child pornographers. These are not. Terrorists that they're hacking. These are journalists and dissidents raises a really interesting question, which is where koso- keys phone now. We haven't seen any Fred's forensic evidence directly from his devices to see if he was a target of the Saudis, and specifically if he was targeted by any malware, you'd have to imagine that you know, whether or not he was infected he was at least to target given what happened to him. But yeah, I mean, the crazy thing is a state like Saudi Arabia actually does have some pretty legitimate threats. But until they lift the game like it's my personal belief like nobody should be selling this stuff to them. I mean, are you happy to call it as black and white is that as well. I think so as an American that's a tough thing to say since we are selling them actual physical weapons that are being used in a war in Yemen to hurt civilians in a horrible way. So while I do think in group is is Ron is hard as an American to cast aspersions on Israel in this matter. It's funny. You mentioned that that. I drew a similar parallel in a conversation recently came econ, which is are we heading to that world way side. They're interception capabilities built into consumer products, and governments are actually deciding where I go will that be decided on human rights grounds? Or is it going to be much like military technology, and I suspect it's the latter. Which is sad news. But sad news as old as government itself. Now, it's not just drama involving Saudi Arabians that group has been in in a couple of Mexican journalists had clear attempts to draw Pegasus and Mel way onto the phones of a couple of Mexican journalists after the assassination of one of their colleagues now, you might think, oh, well, maybe that's the government just wants to investigate this murder. But more likely they the government may having been involved other people in the media receiving fishing links. Understandably a little bit twitchy. Yeah. And you know, Mexico seems to be part of this class of countries that have aggress. Intelligence services that do not have their own indicated that to at least at the level that they want and so they're buying off the shelf. But the flipside is countries in that category are probably likely to use these capabilities in ways that have not been really democratically vetted. If you're going to be in this space. Your best customers are probably the ones that are going to get you in the most trouble. I do really wonder it feels like this is coming back as a topic again in a pretty big y the last time we saw big rounds of coverage on this was the hacking team break and prior to that I guess the fin fishes stuff. Does it feel to you? Like this enough hitting the press at the moment for this to get a bit of critical mass and traction again, I think the Keith is to see if there's going to be a direct link to the kashogi murder if you can tie NSO group directly to the murder of a journalist who was living in the United States that is going to hit it big time, and that is going to jump off of this podcast onto CNN and Fox News. I think that's that's a change. We might need if we ever want to have any kind of international regulation of these kinds of weapons being sold to countries was funny. You mention that because it would Snowden was speaking at an event recently, and drew that link which I think is not such an unreasonable one to be honest. Half the time when he when he does appearances concise pretty silly things. But that is not one of them. I think that link definitely can happen. I did not see him actually cite any evidence. And I'm not sure from his apartment in Moscow exactly what he might have available to him. But it is definitely a possibility that we could see some hard evidence to come out that NFL was part of the kill chain in this case. Unfortunately, a literal kill chain that end in the death of journalist moving closer to home, my home, at least the harm affairs department here in Australia has tried to hose down concerns that funnily enough. I bubbled up on this podcast that that its proposed assistance and access Bill will damage the export of strident security technology. Yes is interesting. There's a lot of parsing by your government there in Australia of what a systems means. And I think what what's going on is that they're they're trying to play this as different things different people that when they say technical assistance. And they're trying to disclaim that that's actually going to affect encryption. But in the long run for the information that these governments want not just the Australians, but really every major government technical assistance at some point is going to mean dropping security protections. So I don't know if this is the Campbell's nose under the tent, or if this is their final state, but it does seem that they're putting a lot of play on the exact word assistance in what it means. Yeah. I mean, it's as far as I can tell right now, the Bill is actually a bit of a mess. One of the problems is they've got this whole thing about how they Kat compel anyone to introduce systemic weakness, but onto the current Bill as far as I understand it. It's the attorney general who decides what is and what is not a systemic weakness, which is probably not ideal is this general believe the law of maths does not apply unless Trulia that was the that was the prime minister at the time. It was the prime minister that week, but we had another attorney general who couldn't explain metadata. Was that was pretty funny. They're not the best that explaining stuff. But look I do have some information here. Some case studies really some use cases, I should say that have been sent to me by any government official seeking to try to explain what these seeking to do. Right. Like, really what they do which maybe isn't reflected as well in the Bill as it should be. But he's one scenario to criminals communicating virus secure messaging app as the communication is started. They would like to be voted into that chat, which I think that's kind of dreaming that. But a lot of the other scenarios that they poss- to me actually involved to this to things that they seem to revolve around. One of them is compelling pays or technology. Mike is to block certain uses from receiving security updates. I found that one pretty interesting. Right. So if you can block is security update to a specific USA, then they could reverse engineer engineer patch and. Get access that way. And the other example, was this sources that look all of these tech companies have advanced knowledge of security vulnerabilities in the products. They would like they would like these companies to maybe use those vulnerabilities to gain access on behalf of the government to these devices unto warrant, I mean, I think if it was limited to that sort of thing it starts to look reasonable. The problem is the Bill doesn't sort of reflect that right? The the holy Beck patches. I'm not sure that the lawmakers understand that generally that responsibility on the mobile devices is the responsibility of of Google and apple in most cases, in some cases, various manufacturers who have their own stores. That's a pretty dangerous capability, right? Like, you definitely asking them to have a blacklist of these individual phones can't get updates for these apps. That's a interesting thing to ask them to build something. I think he'd be abused a lot. So it'd be interesting to see if if that would be qualify. Is a systemic vulnerability or not in the system. Look one thing. I'd like to see is that systemic vulnerability test moved to the to the court white from the attorney general, but I wonder if you could probably do that at a telco level though. I don't think so I think if you're if you're looking from the telco perspective, you have this encrypted connection between the operating system and the service in the CDN that belongs to the phone manufacturer. I'm not sure that you're gonna be able to do that kind of filtering up her apple I think that generally will be pretty difficult. So yeah. So it is kind of a weird little flip of a lot of people were talking about asking for specific back doors to be inserted in updates for individuals. The flip side of blocking updates for individuals. Interesting play, but the companies that could do that Google or apple for them to build that capability for Austria. Would would that capability asked to be used all over the world in a way that I think even the Australians would find. Find unpalatable. Yeah. Well, it's getting interesting, isn't it like at least the conversation is advancing a little it is it will be interesting to see if this is really just Austrailia acting on its own or this is an intentional push. By the five is to use Austrailia as testbed for a number of ideas to see which float by the populace without too much objection, and then we see similar bill's in the UK and Canada. Well, I'm in pretty much everything goes poss- without much objection. Strive to be honest with we're pretty light back bunch. They want some there was the five country ministerial statement that appeared to be a synchronization of policy attitudes towards this sort of thing we saw that a couple of months back, although I will say that I didn't ask when this first came up. I asked someone close to government whether or not this was pot of some sort of synchronized policy push with the United States. And they basically said that since Trump was elected all cooperation on stuff like this, basically stopped right? Like, no one works. Department anymore. Right. No one works the State Department. There's there's no cybersecurity coordinator in the I I know there's people in the DJ who continue to to think about these issues. I don't think coordination is necessarily a bad thing. It would not be bad for a number of western democracies to say, this is the information that we demand under these kinds of legal controls. I think that would actually set a good precedent where it gets a little more worrying is when the president. They said is that you have to actually water down the protections that are currently in place moving onto some bread and butter info sick here, and we've seen it is the year of the supply China tack we've seen one here that he's both high impact and hilarious. Please tell us about it. Yes. It looks like our bitcoin stealing friends have attacked the supply chain for NPR. I'm the node package manager by inserting a back door that allowed them to steal private keys unaffected wallets. This is one interesting that finally it is the year of the Lennox desktop. I guess to the point of people are doing to the point where something like this Mata's. Right. We're something like this could actually matter. I think you're totally right to talk about this supply chain as everybody has been focused on hardware supply chain attacks, which are obviously much harder to pull off this kind of software attack is that they were gonna see more and more of it. Also, reinforces a point that I tried to make with other folks, which is bitcoin and cryptocurrencies of role has completely revolutionized the economics of hacking that you can now pull off attacks that it makes sense to spend months and months and months weaving your way into the supply chain because in the end, you will possibly walk away millions of dollars. That you do not you no longer have to launder out of the banking system. Hundreds of thousands of dollars now. Right. Well. Events. Yes, definitely is a risk to these hackers who have spent months or years getting ready for this point of currency fluctuations. Eventually the thing that I find really fascinating about this story is just how the attack got themselves into a position to this. They just approached the diner and said, hey, how'd you like to maintain this this chunk of card the person who was my diners at show, he go. He's commit rights. Yeah. It's just amazing to me that like a huge chunk of our economies now based upon common open source libraries for which the responsibility for that is something that is just doled out between friends and completely and totally based about who you meet on slacker who you meet on. I r-. And the other this looks like is the chrome issue. Right. That like you have these chrome extensions that are incredibly powerful that are deployed on hundreds of thousands of millions of machines and just being maintained by one or two guys who are open to somebody saying, hey, can I be maintained? Or can I buy your company from you? I'll give you some DOJ coin, right? Like. That extension. It's going go to install by. We believe in the future away, creating a company. Whatever right. Yeah. We're all. Everybody uses open source all of the big companies loved US Open source packages. It turns out it's not free. Right. Like, you're using something that is maintained by some guy in his dorm room supply chain attacks become a real guy. Think about was funny you I do all of these sponsored interviews to that's really the pine pot of my job. And I did one recently for an upcoming snake oil slot with a company called what software, and you know, this is an emerging market. There's other companies that do similar stuff like snick. I think even barracuda might have something in this spice. Although I don't think it's comprehensive, but their whole company is about software composition analysis to address this problem. Right. So they this scanning and prize repos looking for Arkansas, libraries, cataloging them. They're loading on bugs and goings on. They've even got browser plug ins for developers that them when they browsing repo for. Something that contains fun abilities, which I think is hilarious example of shifting left. All the way off the page. But you know, you can see why companies like that getting big rises at the moment. Because this is a real problem. You cannot keep track of the components in your enterprise apps with spreadsheets anymore. It's ridiculous. Yeah. You definitely need to have some kind of product that is telling you what all the streams of water that's being mixed up in that that eventual river of code that that's flowing through your company, but that's not going to detect something like that. Right. That that is useful for friends perspective that once you know, that something events dreams been back door that you can very quickly look to see what kind of owner abilities. What kind of exposure you have to that Filner ability. But until someone ability, you don't know anything, right? Like the truth is there's not that many eyeballs on this. That's always been this idea of open source is that many eyeballs make bug shallow. But the truth is if you're not paying people to look for back doors, if you're not paying people to look for flaws, the number of people who are just going to sit there and their spare time who are professionally trained is extremely small. I saw a presentations on exactly that topic at like Kiwi conto. This has been a problem we've nine about for for a long time, and the extent which open source is just ignored is the first time you look at the numbers. It's real. Moving onto some international intrigue. Now, we've got a story from the guardian here, which is I'm guessing shaping up to be controversial alleges that poll metaphor had secret talks with Julian Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy in two thousand sixteen Wiki leaks has denied at Paul Manafort has denied it and Julian Assange is apparently already kicking off defamation proceedings year. Look at the story. Does look pretty thin. It refers to sources and then at one point I saw and you just go to one if maybe someone might have been sucked in on this one. I it's just impossible to tell whether this is accurate reporting on. Yeah. It's hard to tell this time. This is one of those stories that I don't even want to comment on because it should be incredibly easily provable that front door for that Ecuadorian embassy has to be just about the most surveilled front door in the western world already on an incredibly busy street right in London. And clearly like -nificant portion of. The apartments with view of it probably been rented out by foreign intelligence agencies not to say five plus the London metropolitan police, and so the there's gotta be video of somebody who looks like Paul Manafort walking in that door unless he was able to be shot up the sewer pipes or something like that. Favorite my favorite line in this metaphor? It's twenty sixteen visit to Assange loss at about forty minutes. One source said adding that the American was casually-dressed when he exited the embassy wearing sandy colored gino's cod again and a lot colored shirt. Yeah. It's those kinds of touches that I feel make the guardian one of the greatest newspapers in we need more of that. I mean, we should find out pretty soon. This is also the kind of thing that I feel like this date is this information is going to be in bowlers lap right now. If I I kind of feel like this is a bit of a spoiler. I never wanna read the the sub read it on movies because I want to be spoiled a movies. I don't wanna be spoiling for the molar. And even even true. You think the guardian has done a disservice? Yeah. They really need to have a spoiler tag on top and the ability to filter this kind of stuff out because when that Mullah report drops I wanna sit print it have my Cup of coffee and in really enjoy every single pages familiar. It's gonna be a cognac smoking jacket, and maybe. Fancy veep. Yeah. Well, you can be a little more casual because it's it's not your democracy that they're talking about here. Now, look moving onto something a little bit closer to to your professional career here. Alex, the UK parliament's has used some sort of obscure power to seize a cache of documents pertaining to a lawsuit against Facebook. What are you what the hell is going on here? Is it someone with a Wiegand septa came in and started chanting and yield English? What what happened? Yes. So apparently, I have no personal knowledge of this lawsuit or this company. I, but it looks like a company called six four three. Made a app called pickiness of which is an application that back in the days when the Facebook API allowed you to delegate the ability for apps to see your friends profiles the same way. You do that. This was an app that would help you. Find bikini photos posted by your friends. Wonderful business gone, clearly an incredibly positive business. It really is exactly. The kind of thing that Facebook was hoping to power via API one that's sarcasm of attention attention reporters, who will no doubt listening to this. That was sock rising, Alex. Yes. Yes. When deposed about this podcast later sarcasm. So anyway, six four three sued Facebook because Facebook made these changes in twenty fourteen two thousand fifteen to massively limit API, effectively shutting off Cambridge Analytica type of issues where people who build apps API could take way too much data and sit on it. I think that was totally the right move that happened before. I joined Facebook. But clearly API was way too loose and open before twenty fourteen hundred fifteen six the shoe sane that this cut off their app. So they are they are arguing that we should go back to the Cambridge Analytica age and somehow because they are anti Facebook. They now also now have friends in the digital culture media and sport committee of the UK parliament, which is investigating Facebook. So we have this strange bedfellows situation where a guardian reporter and the head of this committee who dislike Facebook are teaming up with this company. That is absolutely a horrible violator of people's individual rights, the founder of this company found himself in the UK. He claims he was there for other meetings. But while he's in the UK, he meets with a reporter for the guardian who has written a lot about this topic in that she apparently tips off the parliamentary committee, and they send a man with a scepter. I don't think he actually had the scepter. But there are pictures of him with another circumstances. The sergeant of arms to go knocking to tell room to bring him to parliament and after multiple back and forth. They sit there. Threatened him with the rest and force him to log into dropbox and to pull down documents that were provided to his lawyers under seal in San Mateo court where this lawsuit is so tobacco a little bit. The entire civil discovery. Mechanisms in the United States are based upon the idea that in a lawsuit can be forced to turn over your internal documents emails, but the court will make sure that those documents emails are only used for purposes of that lawsuit, and what the court does that by issuing protective order, and I have personally been served the protective orders because as an expert witness. I have been given secrets from other sides of lawsuits than than what I'm supporting and you sign this protective order, and you say we'll do everything to not leak. This information and the entire system of how lawsuits work in the United States rest upon these protective orders, actually working in this case, the UK parliamentarians are claiming that they're law overrides, California law. I can't really speak to that. But it does seem very suspicious to me that this this guy goes there, clearly let me just cut you off. The it almost seems like if you wanted to leak a whole bunch of confidential Facebook stuff to the UK parliament, this might be a way to do it. This might be the way to do it. And that's that's what I suspect happened here. It seems highly suspicious to me that he happens to go there for other business purposes and just happens to receive this order the data was not in the UK. So that's one of the claims that the parliament is making is that the data was in the UK. But it says in this filing by his lawyers, which the filing by the lawyers is wonderful to read because clearly in his his lawyers trying to disclaim any responsibility multiple times, they say that their client did not contact them and ask for their advice. Because they are on the hook now with the judge in California for the violation. This protective order they can be sanctioned up to be disbarred possibly, and so they are they wrote this huge document very very quickly saying this had nothing to do with us. This is our client on his own. But the data was in dropbox, which presumably those files were actually in UK data center. We're in the UK after he downloaded them from dropbox. Right. Right. And so this this is now this really interesting case. I mean, there's a very interesting legal case. I think the UK probably does not want to go down this road. Because I don't think the UK wants to be added to the list of countries besides China in Vietnam that corporations have to send people with burner, laptops, to if all the sudden if you're involved in any kind of legal dispute, and you end up in the UK that they're going to end up forcing you to come on to be fair. I mean, this is some pretty high stike stuff. I know that you would have, you know, not exactly a neutral view having having worked there for a long time. But this is high stakes stuff. I don't think this is a typical this is a typical situation. Right. No. And Facebook has put itself in this place by not sending somebody. They said Richard Alan who represents Facebook in the UK, but but Mark Zuckerberg or Cheryl or somebody like that has not gone to this this to give testimony, and I think that's actually mistake. I think. If you can't operate it all these countries and then thumb your nose at their duly, elected representatives. But I do think it does smell like a set up by the six four three people to try to put themselves in the good position to force. A settlement of basically saying we can use discovery in this lawsuit to dump information out to the parliament. An interesting twist today is then one of the parliamentarians talked about one of the emails in this big dump talking about a Russian IP, downloading information and Facebook came back and said, yeah, that was just like one Email from an engineer saying this look suspicious upon investigation that address belonged to Pinterest and was part of fischel use of the so. Fishing expedition on that cash has begun. But Alex, the whole point of you coming to do this is because you've been spending too much time talking about Facebook stuff lately. Let's let's move on shall we? Yeah. Please new phone who this talking about. Exactly, right. Cyber scoop reports that Oba has been fined one point one seven million dollars by Yucai and doctoral thority, this is of course, 2016 thank covered up by paying a hundred thousand dollars to that guy. This is this is a very widely talked about bridge, one point one seven million dollars, guessing herb is response to that was to pull it out of the other pants. Yes. Well, the other pants that have that wallet full of Saudi money. It turns out they're doing. Okay. I mean, it seems like a reasonable fine. This was a situation which Uber tried to retroactively classify a breach as a bounty bounty. Yeah. Which? I think Uber did not do the right thing. I also I am a little afraid of this whole situation starting to chip away against bug bounties. Because the truth is every time somebody reports a bug the bounty. You could argue that that is a unreported breach in if we end up down the road where every single bug turns into a massive legal issue. Then nobody is going to run bug bounties. But that. This wasn't reporting through through a program. They did download all of that. Like, it wasn't a typical sort of bug bounty style interaction wasn't. It wasn't a typical. And hopefully, this is the end of it. I hope Uber pays the fine accepts that. They did the wrong thing that does seem to be the position of the new CEO there. Let's just hope that we don't see a future situations in which boundaries are used as cover for real breaches. It'd be really sad. If that was the implication give into regulators that bug bounties. Are used to cover breaches all the time. Which is just not how you should look at them. One hundred percent agree. Interesting situation here in the city of York, north Yorkshire police are apparently declining to press charges against someone who found I in some sort of city online database online application, they found the bug. I reported that to them and then the response from the from the council or the city was to coal and report this to the police never almost sort of getting a on flappy I've rip at the cops alike NAR. This person did. Service. It's all good good news story. I guess good news story, I've got to complement the police of of old York here of making the right call and this brings up a really interesting question, which is what should responsible disclosure look like for government agencies. This really feels like decision that means made on a nationwide basis. It'd be great. If the UK said, this is how you can report bugged municipalities in the end, you don't want things like city councils that have been embarrassed by bugs turning around and going after researchers. Yeah. I mean, I think this almost feels like it's happening more and more. Sorry. This is becoming the template which is okay report it, and then the cops will usually use their discretion decided. No. That's not a thing. It's all good. Right. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely US as well. The US postal service had someone report a pretty serious bug to them. They did nothing. So after a year this person reached out to Brian Krebs who reported it to them. And of course, they fixed it this is a situation. That's actually quite familiar to me as an Infosec journalist. I've done this on many an occasion, sometimes with some pretty hilarious results. But again, it looks like a good outcome. Yeah. And I think in the US one of the things that I hope we have this new cyber security infrastructure security agency under. DHS? It would be great to see them create the ability as it kind of reporting location of last resort, especially the federal government. Right. If you find a USPS bug there should be somebody in the government. You can go to to blow whistle other than Brian Krebs like as great as Krebs is. I think that should be like that for the I think we need something like that for the private sector as well. Because various have tried to do it in the past. And sometimes they've got all the work to do. And they might not get around to it for a time. There was one guy working for these stranding federal police, and he became the defacto clearinghouse. You know, if you found a bug you'd tell him, and he would ring up putting on his pay hat and say, hey, I'm from the cybercrime division of these federal police, and someone has very helpfully pointed this out, right? So that's how that's how he would assist. He's not there anymore. Unfortunately. So when people come to me now, and they're like, how do I report ex? Honestly, I just yeah. Do think it needs to be government, folks. I think if you really wanna make something that work you've gotta have safe harbor for reporters. You're gonna have to legally that you are exempted from Sierra in the US and the quits around the world if you've done the right thing we've gone to that reporting agency of last resort. And you've taken them responsibly agree some interesting news around rug ham. We've thought that sort of ACC protections knocked dead not Sar. But this is sort of at least I research looks the things. Yeah. It looks very early taking a look at their pre print looks like excellent research. It is it will be unfortunate. If this holds up, and it turns out that really is wonderful that was effectively not a lot of people are obviously hosting cloud computing on non ACC systems. And so for most enterprises, I think e c was the back stop that made people not not care so much about row hammer, if this turns out to be practical, which has not been demonstrated. Then that is going to be a big deal for all the enterprise, cloud, competing companies. The little technique could right because when it first came up, it was almost I remember the first time something like this is adamant I talked about a pipe where people were typo squatting on demands. That would sometimes get accidentally triggered by sort of random bit flips. Right. So that was cool. And then we started seeing some research done on exploitation of this that was kind of like very much in the lab, not really that predictable it progressed to some sort of reliable exploits against some platforms with a bunch of caveats. It just feels like it just keeps on truckin. Right. Yeah. And we've got to remember EC is built to prevent random bit Fritz from you know, 'cause McRae's in the like it was never built as a security protection. So it is not shocking. That easy is not going to stand up to an intelligent adversary in the same way that you would have with some kind of real cryptographic checks and apparently data for there's no word from these research is about eighty off all which means probably doesn't work against the wall. So that's that's something never say never. What we're learning. Never right. That's the problem. Nessim news from the Washington Post has just broken one of their reporters has got wind that any investigative report from Bloomberg is really trying to pace together the super micro story again independently which suggests to me that Bloomberg are in fact publicly signed that they one hundred percent standby both super micro Chinese hot way back doors story, but they have tossed someone who by the looks at things quite a competent journalists to go around contacting every single source type of source that you can think of when you'd wanna put together a story like this and then not having much luck. If you to believe this report, not having much luck verifying that original reporting from Bloomberg. So I think it's good that Bloomberg is doing this themselves. I am sure there are other journalistic organizations that have people out there front running them a little bit. And so I can tell you I can tell you one hundred percent right now there I've heard. Of some very major publications doing serious legwork on this, right? Which is important that Bloomberg story. The fact is falling apart could be really problematic for people who actually are concerned about supply chain attacks. This kind of chicken saying that the sky is falling when it when it isn't cried wolf for all right? What's what's my metaphor crying wolf on? This could really hurt the ability for people to to to think about into measure these risks and supply chain in a reasonable way and somebody who who is somewhat of an expert in corporate weasel language around security incidents. I can tell you that this is the most definitive I've ever seen companies from Amazon to apple deny that something is true. Like, they've given themselves absolutely no room, George Coppola's at apple a friend of mine. He's personally said this is not true and gave no wiggle room. I if I was Bloomberg. I would take that very very seriously. Well, it's really funny that you mentioned George because off nine George for quite a long time. I've known him since the early two thousand when he was at Microsoft, Georgia's a bit of a bit of a legend in Infosec, really, he's the guy who was responsible for windows, XP service pack, which was the one that sort of closed awful services from the outside. They managed to convince management to break. Some. Backwards compatibility in in windows, which was just unthinkable at the time. You know, Georgia's being around the traps a while and was at one time, a frequent visited Australia. So I've known him a long time. And after I recorded that interview with Joe fits on the Bloomberg stuff that blew up. I didn't publish it the day that it was ready. Right. I slept on it. And the thing that really changed trigger calculus on that is when I woke up, and I saw the letter from apple to congress denying the story, and it had Georgia signature on the bottom. And I'm lucky I I'm now much more confident that I can publish this. Yeah. Absolutely. This is where name-dropping I think I've known George just as lon- since I was there at Microsoft is Sultan and actually have a story of being stuck in a limo with George Dave Litchfield on a bridge. That was was drowned in the Seattle area due to floods. So they're a good team has to. Hi, guys, by the way, if you listening we got a funny funny one here from ZD net, which is about a cop group that in order to screw a competing Majorcan. Scott group like altered their code side that every credit card that they've rivals into sept-. It would be incremented by one to poison the database. That's funny. I mean, it's not really a big story. But the reason I highlighted this one the reason I wanted to talk about this one is much cop is everywhere right now. I mean, I'm getting emails from people sending me like breach. Notifications for small businesses like local gyms online stores, and it's you can tell by the way, they've they've written about this breach. Like the credit card information was intercepted at the point of entry. Like, it's obviously it's just amazing to me that it's taken this long for a group to figure out that you just drop your page or whatever onto onto a sought to this is there no honor month thieves. It's just very sad to see them turn each other major deal. And I think we're going to continue to see this where people try to use the exact same code or the exact same attack. Vector is going to be not just who is I which which used to be the big deal. But. Who is trickier in making it difficult for their competitor to economically competitive, Amazon, the zone exposure that kind of isn't a big deal. It's getting headlines, and I kind of get why look I mean, they're a big company. Right. So that's why. But Amazon apparently exposed some uses Email addresses. That's by the looks of their response. It seems to have been fairly contained, but they are being a little bit too tight lipped on exactly what's happened here. And the Email to us who were affected was terrible. Yeah. I got that Email. I am in the list of people have been exposed. I think this is the the meta issue here is that nobody knows what GDP ours data disclosure requirements are right now, there's a bunch of words that have been argued about in in various working groups. But in the end, it is going to be years and years of litigation before we understand what level of exposure. Do you have to disclose whether disclosure like this is good enough? I personally I don't think the closure is good enough. But maybe it's just enough to to get past the. GDP our rules. This will be interesting case. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's a good point. How this one God? Google Missoula are apparently going to introduce functionality to browsers that will allow them to edit files on disk. Now, of course, the the advantage here is if you're using Google docs, whenever you want to save the fall, you don't wanna download at every time. Right. That's that's the idea. But you know, everyone's kinda pointing out like this could maybe be abused. Yeah. There's there's always these w three c working groups that are effectively you could summarize as the working group on making Java. Scrip- malware, a reality. This is this is one of those. I'm shocked that Google specially who's an all of this work on sandbox in chrome would wanna put themselves in a position where if they want to support this and they have to pop a huge hole in one of their sandbox protections. Hopefully, if this happens it happens in a way that is highly restricted, and the perhaps even while looks like you're right to the file system. You're right into the real file system. You writing to like a virtual is file system or something that is a proxy intermediate in some way. But I think this is this is not a smart move in you know, in the story one of the excuses. Well, you're going to have to have the pop up box. DO to choose. What file you upload? Are you save to the idea that you want to put this kind of responsibility back in users? I think is a real out how this works, right? And you just said like some sort of proxy intermediate intimate thing. Well, that's why you bugs are gonna be right? That's what you're going to be. If you wanna have long-term file storage, you're really going to have to restrict by design where these browsers can write to otherwise, you're going to get rid of all the benefits you've gone from having these operating system based container systems in virtualization systems that can restrict browsers like edge. Now, the last thing we're gonna speak about out of an useless. This Alex is is Sean Gallagher over at odds Technica is writing a multi pots series on the cold Snowden legacy and seems to have done a reasonable job of actually trying at least to some balanced balanced recap on the on the whole Snowden affair. I wanna. Get your impressions on this. Because you found yourself working as a see saw insulin valley very shortly after Snowden dumped his cache of documents and very much involved in the response to it. First of all, what did you think of Shawn's right up here? And second of all what's what's your reflection on that time, it's Bain five years five and a half years. You know, how do you look back on that time and him amazing? It's it's been five years. So I I think Sean scrape I think he's done a really good job of trying to be balanced in his look back, and he is definitely one of my favorite writers in insecurity right now. You know, when I look at I took over at Yahoo just a little bit after the stone disclosures. And so I had to take over the response of the company and to start. It is absolutely true. That there have been big improvements in security, especially at the big tech companies based on the disclosures with those documents did is they turned what people knew was theoretically possible in to ground concrete truth. And security is full of people who are always paranoid. And always saying, oh, this bad thing could be happening. Supply chain attacks can be aware in my firmware. There could be Persky could actually be a front for the FSB. People talk about that. All the time. There's an infinite universe of possible bad things that can happen when you're at a company, and you're trying to make decision of where you're gonna put your resources where you're gonna put your time. It's not useful. To know. What's possible is useful to know what's actually going on? And so the fact that the Snowden documents said these are things that are going on that there is widespread sniffing of public internet traffic. But also, I think something that was overlooked by most people in a huge in Silicon Valley. What was called the muscular program that was disclosed which is the tapping of the fiber optic backbone between tech company's data centers and pops that was a huge deal. Everybody knew that was theoretically true to have that black and white was the only way you're going to get these companies spend, the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars necessary over years to encrypt all of that data. With even when g mile had like a front end the front end says was still retrieving mile to present to the in the clear from other data centers, fiber optic links. Right. Yeah. That's right. I think people the big consumer tech companies will run dozens of data centers, but hundreds of hundreds of points of presence. So the point of presence will be a collection of servers in a data center that is not controlled by that company. So usually in a local telco that is where h EPS will be terminated there'll be servers. They're that intelligently look at the request and then route it to the right data center, and that routing will happen over dedicated bandwidth that is purchased from these transcontinental you'll under ocean links, and that's a really important part of delivering service at speed to billions of people, but before the disclosures, those links were not encrypted because these companies are paying a ton of money to the Global Crossing's the level three's the companies like that expecting them to keep that data secure. And it. Turns out that all those companies had sight deals apparently with the NSA to allow them to tap, those fiberoptic cables, and perhaps even to rent out space for the equipment necessary to to sniff that traffic and so to make that clear actually drove a lot. And then clearly disclosures drove the adoption of HTTPS on the front end. So you can't say that there was no improvement from these disclosures clearly that happened in and you do have to wonder. About the kind of risk management decisions inside of the government to this point. Because the US government clearly knew this as possible that clearly knew that America's adversaries are probably doing the same thing. I would be shocked if the Chinese are not tapping all those fiber optic lines at land on Chinese soil, but then travel on to other countries in Asia. But decided that it was worth it to keep American systems insecure to keep their intelligence gathering. Correct. So from that perspective, I think Snowden had a positive impact. But Sean is right to also we got to be a little bit critical, especially of those of us in tech. And I include myself in that who thought Snowden was just a hero. Because we I think also some bad things came out of this. And I think Sean talks about some of it, but of direct. I don't know what he was doing dropping docs on DVD now asked a operations eating the Asia. Like why right. Like, there's a bunch of docs in there that. Yeah. If you look at the documents that had really positive impact, you can really look at like five or ten slide decks, and there's hundreds of other ones that blew up really legitimate western intelligence operations or that did things like exposed bugs that are being planted in Syria in Cisco routers, or expect in places like Russia or China for which there is no civil liberties. Impact to Americans or America's allies and for which there's no real legitimate need like as a tax payer. I pay the NSA to do that kind of stuff. Yeah. I lost to like one of my biggest problems with Snowden, and I look I agree with everything you just said, it's great having high state everywhere. It's great it. Really excel righted that trend. Right. So I think that was absolutely overwhelmingly one hundred percent positive thing. So I think we will. They don't understand how hard it was to move to h EPS. There's a lot of people kind of in the in the security industry who don't work at scale like dude, you just go get a certificate. And you turn it on the real problem that we had yahu yahu had all these websites that had third party includes from this huge ecosystem of companies in the advertising and measurement ecosystem. And the only way you're going to get all of those companies to upgrade at once was from some kind of like this, otherwise if this didn't happen, even in two thousand eighteen we'd probably still be kind of chewing the right? Yeah. A lot of these consumer sites would be encrypted. Go to. What did you think of one thing where I look back on Snowden, and he doesn't look so shiny in. My view is pretty clear that a lot of commentary around. These documents was he was misinterpreting the stuff that he was leaking as best I can tell what's your feeling on that. No. And that's definitely true. The first one of the first big stories was the prism story. And the slide deck, the meta commentary that came out of the reporters who were those stories that is based partially upon Snowden 's quotes wrote the stories incorrectly in created this idea that the US government had direct access to servers that could just push a button and go directly into the servers of Google directly in the servers of Facebook into Yahoo. And that's not true. Now, it is true that 702 gives the government. The ability to issue orders to American tech companies to turn over data. But that process is just like the process for normal warrants in the United States, and that it goes through lawyers. It goes through people whose job it is. Is to approve into to verify that kind of stuff. Now personally story was absolutely terrible. But they would they would dozens of stories like that with certain journalists. Really just taking source document documents and just kind of making up the narrative right with no bearing on reality. Yeah. I think we're kind of dancing around certain people's names because we pulled out by him on Twitter. Like, you never get a Twitter war somebody who tweets like every nineteen seconds on average. Right. But yeah, I do think that was a problem. There was both a couple props Snowden comments around prison, and some other things were not helpful. And we're not true in lead. People down the wrong path of understanding how these systems are too. I do have a problem with the legal oversight of some of these these orders, and I personally believe that we should not have classified appellate law in the United States. That's incompatible democracy. But that is totally different than the initial story in the story that probably a lot of people still believe about the relationship between tech and DC which has been a serious problem. When you look at what happened in two thousand sixteen. With the Russian election. And I know you're trying to save me from talking about the same stuff that I have to talk about all the time. Did you the Russian election? I'm sorry. The Russian interference in the. The. Yes. Just slip slip. When you look at at what happened in two thousand sixteen you can see that as a intelligence failure within the US government. But also within the tech companies in between the government and the tech companies, and you can partially trace the inability for the government, the US government, other western governments and major US companies to work together to some of the ideas that came out of the initial snowed in reporting. You can't look at that issue in not roll the clock back to us. Enjoy straight line between those things and I've spoken to people in government and speak spoken soup people on the tech side as well. And that's absolutely thing where they kind of like, they they hand to kind of tied, right? If they want to cooperate because they might be another leak, and then that's going to hurt them. Right. And these are the truth is there are significant disagreements between tech and government on some very important things. Like ended encryption which I'm strong supporter but ninety percent of these issues demonstrate like a real shared mission. Right. Nobody wants foreign governments to be able to mess with democracies. Nobody wants children to be exploited online. There is no real fight over these issues. But the some of the challenges created, by the way this disclosures handled which I think is not just on the journalist. But is on the US government is well because the the response to the government or in this time was absolutely funny. You mentioned NS I has has public affairs people right right now. Right. They win. The PR office opened was at the end of two thousand thirteen right? I did not have people when Snowden talks, which is why they went putting out account of narrative. I think the people responsible for any Saipa was like someone in a back room at the Pentagon somewhere. Right. So. Didn't they did? Absolutely nothing to try to correct this stuff. And look his another his another example of how Snowden change things is agencies in the five nations. These days are a lot more transparent. And I think that's in order to partially immunize themselves against maybe futures events like this. But right. It's a good thing. It is a good thing. And it's honestly lessen the tech companies have to have to learn to which is being transparent and open about the world's dangerous place. We are working on these issues. We're trying to do our best is way better than creating a vacuum in which people can empty out their worst fears, and perhaps they're motivated reasoning right into just like I think the NSA failed to come out in to be honest about what was going on. And to say, you caught us we're doing some things that perhaps we shouldn't have. But it's not as bad as what people are saying. They had an opportunity to do that in the first days, especially with the bar Gilman's like the journalists to were going to the government for. Comment and getting no comment back. They really could have changed the narrative, and I think the tech we've done the same thing, including my former employer of not filling the space with the truth, and therefore people who really dislike these companies are not really wedded to evidence based claims are able to fill that space. They never create a vacuum that can be filled by Glenn Greenwald. You said his name not me, please go to at risk please address tweets at risky business. I wanna final question, and this is really because we've gone massively time, which has been a lot of fun one question. Do you think Apple's decision to refuse to unlock the phone of the San Bernardino gunman keeping in mind? It was an obsolete phone pre SEP the FBI at that point. I think would just asking to send the fines and retrieve the back. Do you think that that was a defensible decision, or do you think that that was a that was a mistake by the time it became a legal fight? I think it was right for apple to fight it. And I am trying to be consistent here because I helped write the. Mikus brief by Facebook on that supported Apple's decision. I think it would have been very dangerous to allow that precedent be created. But you point out a really good point, which is in this specific situation. There seemed to be opportunities for apple to take care of this issue in a way that did not actually decrease this security of its users. And so picking the fight in the first place on what could it be in the long run, a really losing battle might have been a tactical in strategic mystic. In other words, I strange hill today on exactly yeah. All right. Alex stomas. Thank you very much for being Al guest. News co host this week. It's been a lot of fun. And I hope we can do it again sometime. Thanks again. It's been fun. Thank you, Patrick. Thank you for not making me do a Kiwi accent. Because all my accent's end up sounding like Sean Connery. So it's probably better for for the listeners. That was Alex Thomas the big thanks to him full that. And I do hope we can get Alex back on some time next year because that was a lot of fun. Okay. It is time for this week sponsor interview now thinks canary is one of these security industry's best loved companies. And that's because they make something that's cheap easy to deploy. And very effective. Chris gates is a fan of Canaries Cullen Mullah has spoken about using canary tokens to flag, reverse engineering. Smart people use thinks stuff both hardware virtual and just strings. Tokens now office hot way honeypots, of course, also virtual honeypots and canary tokens and their free via canary talkin dog, and of course, they integrate those tokens into the monitoring console you get a pine customer. So we thought this week would speak to one of those paying customers instead of Stafa. Mike Ruth is a security engineer at cruise automate. And did a talk at Q cone all about automating, the deployment of canary tokens at scale he joined me to talk about how that process works. What's offensive, and what's not in his what he had to say? Yeah. Well, so both. So I guess I'll start say that Canaries pay for themselves instantly for my from my perspective from Ivy. Right. Whether that's literal money or the time and effort invested into actually implementing them if you do have an incidence. They're going to be very valuable right wherever they're located even if they're not at scale, so so it's sort of a double edged sword though. Right. Because if you get if you get sort of over zealous with sort of putting Canaries everywhere that could be potentially problematic, right because you may get too many, false positives. If people are actually accessing the locations of these Canaries that because it's on sort of data day or common common path right that that could be problematic. However, if you do intelligently, and you start placing Canaries in locations that should never be. Accessed unless it's from sort of an attacker or an entity that shouldn't be looking there. Then then they can be extremely valuable. So basically, get them the hell out of the anyway, where use them I'd accidentally touched them like a few people say that. And it does make sense. Yeah. Exactly. So let's talk about some of your experience doing some of the fancier automated things with canary tokens like what have you done there because that seemed to be fairly substantial chunk of Utah could coupon. Yeah. Well, so to generally speaking, right? When you when you start using canary tokens, you can start putting them in a lot of cool places that you've you've typically automate, right? So if you take a look at all the mation tools, can you can start using them in, you know, tear form cloud formation. All these cloud, tools, right? Where cloud is a place where you can't get hardware physical things, but canary tokens and virtual devices actually fit pretty well there. Whether it's images that you're deploying or the string or strings in the form of tokens. So you can start looking at things like, okay when you start playing containers. Right. Maybe maybe there are users employed in those containers that that can have canary tokens, or you know, if you're creating manifests for Kuban, Eddie's or some sort of container orchestration, you can put things there or if you're the deployment of databases, right? So there are a lot of different use cases, where if you need one for like every single VP that you're deploying in your cloud or every single account that you're deploying scale ability becomes challenging that's where automating comes in and becomes particularly valuable how. How much of a challenge is that? And at the other end like what? Is the alerting hard to handle if you actually stop putting them absolutely everywhere because the two questions, I guess that that have I think that getting a proper CIC pipeline in place for that automation is a challenge in and of itself. Right. And I think organizations today and all of the world are challenging to challenged do that. Right. Once that's in place. It's just sort of a plug in that you get the plugged into it. Right. And that's the same for any sort of new deployment that you wanna get introduced into your CIC pipeline. So I would say that, you know, if you're an organization that's fairly well mature that already has this sort of CD automation place getting Canaries automated is fairly fairly easy. If spent some time sort of millions in yourself with how to create Canaries in the first place to your second point, though what happens when you get all these alerts now, you've got Canaries everywhere. What was that look like from alerting perspective? So back harkening back to my sort of first point there, you may get overly fatigue with all of the alerts if you don't do so sort of an intelligible manner, but that's really going to depend on where you put them and how frequently they're accessed. That was the whole idea right with like canary was it's supposed to be very high quality, signaling. And indeed if you deploy hardware canary somewhere, you know, people shouldn't touch it. Anyone touching that is bad that you want to know about some of these canary tokens, stop throwing the everywhere, you are going to actually have a bit of a fade there that you can filter, right? Yep. Absolutely. And so I mean, I guess it comes down to two gradients, right? If if you're alerting pipelines are pretty good at identifying false positives with flash for you. Maybe you can sort of reduce that noisome on the other hand. Maybe it's a conversation or an architecture perspective where you need to like sort of Kerr back on on where you're putting these Canaries because you're getting too, many, false positives. And it happens to be that it's not as valuable as as perhaps you wanted it to be. So the next question becomes which types of canary tokens, a you actually finding most valuable. Yeah. Which are the ones that give you the highest signal to noise because I. Imagine you would have seen some trends by now if this is something that you're doing. Yeah. Well, so it it depends on your environment to right? Like, I guess if we take a look at thinks line of tokens, they have a handful of different token types. But you don't necessarily need to be limited by one specific tool. Right. If you if you need a specific type of token that gets created that services and offer you you can go and create that now, of course, that's going to require you to have alerting. And all these other things that are in place to support that token type or maybe it requires an upstream change into thinks Canaria, libraries. But so if. I guess what? I'm trying to say is like if the token doesn't exist you should create it, first and foremost, but I would say that credentials are pretty pretty great credit token types, right? So this is like AWS credentials is easy win. That's probably the top one. Well, I mean any type of credential really because they shouldn't. Yeah. Outside of that context. Like, it's just it just seems like a pretty big red flag. Right. Yeah. Right. But you also need to be careful like part of the game is sort of trick. You're an attacker when it comes to credentials, right? They need to use them to be able to trigger to treat off the alert. So if it's obvious wherever these credentials or these tokens may be sitting than maybe they don't use them, right? If but these use cases may very sort of wildly, right? Like, if you've got I don't know if you've got a Microsoft Word document that sitting on on the endpoint device that says like totally off the canary like that that's probably not going to be successful. But if. You've got AWS credentials that are sitting specific user on a specific EC, two instance, maybe that'll be more valuable. I mean, it's amazing. How many admits tend to poss- words text falls on the desktop though. Right. So yeah. Do you know who've won that why right quite a few? Yeah. It's true. Either joke during the during the coupon presentation where it's like, you know. So just store these restore your credentials. Hopefully, it's not on a post it note next year, computer. But if it was there are QR code canary token, so you could probably put that right next to it. And maybe that'd be helpful. So I'm guessing by the sounds of things using thinks alerting using the canary tokens platform, integrating with all of your holiday. Honey, pots and stuff as well. That's an old singing old dancing sort of cloud. Canary tokens platform, I'm gathering from the conversation that we've just had that you actually have asked them to do. Some custom token types for you is that right? Well, so the folks over thinks they offer a handful of different variants, right? They've got open canary, which is a open source hardware or virtual canary platform. So that's free. You can go and use that without sort of needing to interact with thinks that all same with canary tokens dot org. Great those of free as well. However that you have a paid for service, and that's particularly valuable because they provide things like, you're alerting structure your dashboard, you're you is also, you know, virtual images that are really easy to configure. So so I have worked with sort of all of those different types. I I don't think that I go so far as to say, I've asked them to create their own token types, but certainly I have looked through their API's and put up stream changes where they're sort of a difference in perte, right because you can take a look at their paid services. And maybe maybe missing a token type that you can find in their canary org token, free service, right? So it's really been back and forth on like, hey, you're missing this. Or that even though you have it over here. So that's kind of. Conversations that we had now do you want the best type of canary token is gonna ask now what's the worst? Because I can imagine. There would be a few that you push you like oh God. What have I done? Yeah. Well, I think it probably depends on two to two thoughts. Right. One is are there certain tokens that just aren't particularly valuable right? And that might be because it's like a document type that isn't used much or or things like this. Right. And then the other might be actually are there vulnerabilities or or concerns in the way that certain things are implemented right with AWS credentials the way that most of the learning goes on it and AWS right is the cloud trail. So if you if you're monitoring cloud trail for specific usage of credentials or air ns that valuable for an alerting perspective, however, AWS has come out. And there was a an article, I believe by rhino security, recently that have shown that if you use e c or sorry AWS credentials, and you try and hit services that don't have support in cloud trail, you can actually skirt around certain alerts, and that's been. Dangerous. And w I said, no that's as designed. We're not gonna change it. So there's some dangers actually from using certain token types because you may not actually get alerting where you you may have actually needed it. Yeah. I mean that was if I understand it's the same thing that I read it's it's really that they can more or less enumerate whether or not something is real or a canary. Yeah. Yeah. The way that they do that is basically because of a lack of parody or lack of support from AWS's end with a specific service that they provide as well as that service logs being being read from cloud trail that they don't end up in it. So walk us through just one very typical implementation. Automated implementation of a canary talk just woke us for one. That's that's an easy win in this all-singing all-dancing, magical, cloud Amazon world. Sure. Yeah. I mean, whether it's AWS, or if you're in the cloud is, you know, you need some sort of automation framework. So, you know, I gave sort of some high level, you know, pseudo code in the in the presentation, I gave on like, here's what the client might look like that needs to call on automation framework. And then I gave some sort of snippets on what that automation framework looks like, and it's basically just a bunch of python. Call sitting in a service function right of US it and whatever it is. And so the idea here right might be. Use amid a PR to a repo. You know, you wanna make a code change real quick. And then whatever whatever that PR gets merged. It goes and kicks off the CD pipeline, but let's say instead of going and just creating an image and deploying it through whatever through Jenkins through turf form, whatever it is that you're using it also goes and creates a token during this process, right? And that's okay. And that may have a whole bunch of meta data that's associated with it. Right. Whether it's the the build that that you're deploying or the use case with which you're trying to provide a token for whatever it is. And then right? You can go in a take that token that's been created and pass it along through that sort of get repo CI CD step, and this may be valuable for handful of things, right? One might be like you wanna token on every single pod that gets created for you know, for this report. Right. So that's in your Dev environment. That's in your staging environment. That's in your prod. And that could be particularly helpful or maybe it's for on boarding, right? Maybe you. Want sort of endpoint devices to have have a set of credentials or something like that? So with each new employee that gets gets on boarded you create a credential at specific their device. Those are pretty low hanging fruit that that you can kind of get started with right away. And you can even take a look at sort of the pseudo code that. I provided in my presentation to see sort of what that might look like. All right. Well, Mike Rioux. Thank you very much for joining us on the program to have a bit of a chat about actually really taking some of these things for so many years, which is security concepts and putting them to into action in ice skylight, y it's been very interesting. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. That was Mike Ruth from cruise automation that talking about automating the deployment of canary tokens big. Thanks him for that. And huge thanks to thinks for being the single. Biggest sponsor of the weekly risky business podcast big thanks to thinks canary full that you can check out this stuff at thinks dot com. But that he's it for this week's show. Do hope you've enjoyed it. Until next time. I've been Patrick thanks for listening.

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We Were Warned: The Climate Emergency and the Surveillance State

Intercepted with Jeremy Scahill

1:12:24 hr | 11 months ago

We Were Warned: The Climate Emergency and the Surveillance State

"This is it man. This is what your grandchildren going to be. Smoking future future the smoke this fucking thing I'll try it. You Know My water vapor. Hey how crazy is getting very tired to be tough shape. I've gotten extremely cautious. The lights no good. I always look orange the universes so big. It's like whatever you want whatever you want. It's all about space. Americans have all walks of life rose up these obsolete Karen all APP Goebbels Infantrymen lawmakers. I and and you understand that very well food edge. H booed edge don't don't vape. We don't like I don't like This intercepted. I'm Betsy Reed Editor in chief of the intercept coming to you from our offices in New York City in this is episode one hundred of intercepted. I'm sitting in for Jeremy Scahill this week. After a summer of one terrifying weather event after another the hurricanes the melting glaciers the deadly heatwaves and burning forests all around the world the mainstream media still doesn't call our situation what it is a climate emergency this past week the intercept except along with two hundred and fifty news organizations joined an initiative called covering climate now aimed at confronting emergency with all the urgency it deserves we published a series of articles under the rubric climate crimes because here's something else that mainstream media too often forgets the fossil fuel industry while cloaking working itself and feel good green rhetoric is committing crimes against our future aided and abetted by political elites that they have bought and paid for both here in the US and around around the world thanks to the rising global youth movement public consciousness of what's at stake surrounded the UN climate action summit this week in New York where speakers like Greta Tonsberg address these symbol dignitaries on Monday. This is all wrong. I shouldn't be here. I should be back in school on the other side of the ocean yet. You all come to US young people for hope. How dare you you have stolen my dreams might childhood with your empty words yet. I'm one of the lucky ones people. All of suffering people are dying. Entire ecosystems are collapsing. We are in the beginning of a mess extension attention and all you can talk about is money and tales of eternal economic growth. How dare you ever since NASA climatologist. James Hansen testified before the Senate in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. We've known that our plan is warming to dangerous levels because of human activities and yet since one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. One hundred companies have been responsible for seventy percent of continued greenhouse gas emissions. We know who to blame for polluting our air and heating our oceans. We know who is responsible for this emergency but still the culprits have slithered out of accountability. The tides are turning though and it's clear that the younger generation won't rest until they can extract a measure of what they call climate justice meaning that those who've committed these crimes will pay a price while those who have suffered as a result will find safe haven and relief. It's a simple idea really the sixteen-year-old enrolled climate activists. Greta Tonsberg has become controversial for making a point that should be obvious corporations should be held to account for what they've done. If there's something we are not lacking in this world it's money and I mean of course many people do like money but I mean governments and these people people in power they do not like money and and also we need to have the polluters to to actually pay for the damage. They have costs us about a year ago. Greta began school strikes for the climate in her native Sweden on September twentieth. Four million people joined her across the globe so it's heartening and moving to see a global movement arise from one teenagers actions but it's important to remember that at the same time as my colleague Naomi Klein writes fascist and militaristic reactions to the climate breakdown are on the rise in present a lately endgame for Climate Denial. ISM will bring new me on in a moment but also coming up on the show today. We're going to hear or from investigative reporters. Sharon Lerner Sharon has been working on a beat at the intercept for several years now uncovering the way toxic chemicals are invading our everyday life in our bodies ace. Thanks to corporate greed and government inaction. Her series is called bad chemistry and she spoke about her work with intercepted associate producer Elise Swain. It was already in all of our bodies. It was in our blood. It was in the blood of wildlife. It was in water as it became clear to me in two thousand fifteen around the country were also going to hear from. NSA Whistleblower Edward snowden whose disclosures of course rocked the political media world six years ago and whose archive of materials has been the basis of over a hundred intercept investigations. He will be in conversation about his new memoir with I look media's director of Information Security Michalik Michalik. You know look it's a very serious thing being sued by the United States government and this is only a sort of further evidence they will do anything they can to make my life harder her and to discourage the public from hearing the things that I have to say but first intercepts senior correspondent Naomi Klein knew me has a new book out that tries to answer some of the questions. We started talking about today. Can we ward off a grim future where the planet is warming faster than we thought possible where right wing Authoritarians or leading straight toward a climate catastrophe what would real climate justice look like and what would it take to achieve it. Naomi's new book is called called on fire the burning case for green new deal as she writes. The idea is a simple one in the process of transforming the infrastructure of our societies. He's at the speed and scale that scientists have called for humanity has a once in a century chance to fix an economic model that is failing the majority of people on Multiple Apple Fronts Naomi Klein. Welcome to intercept it thank you it's great to be with you betsy so congratulations new me on your new book on fire. It's it's a great book and it also got a great and well-deserved review in the New York. Times began with the sentence. If I were a rich Man I'd buy two hundred forty five have million copies of Naomi Klein's on fire in hand deliver them to every eligible voter in America. Now I soon that's not happening. No Rich Man has done that for you. But how is it going yeah. The tour has been fantastic so far the book events have really turned into organizing meetings. People really want to get involved involved. They want to figure out how they can help make a green new deal happen and for the the book to be coming out the same week that we have these historic climate strikes wchs around the world has also just been really exciting because when we talk about the climate crisis people feel really overwhelmed and I'm trying to create a space where you know. It's not all hope I mean. There's a lot to be afraid of. There's grief there's loss but if that's all we're feeling and then you think that you have to solve all all of it as an individual. I think it can be completely overwhelming so the fact that people are educating themselves at the same time as they're seeing millions of people people organizing collectively and feeling that sense of collective power. It's as good a place to be as I think we can be given. The circumstances this point history feel also momentous with four million people taking to the streets and when so much depends on what happens next so do you feel hope or dread or some combination combination of both. It's a complicated a map of certainly emotions that I feel in terms of every day. There seemed to be multiple reports soon telling us in different ways that we are seeing ecological unraveling at a speed that really is ahead of schedule in in terms of what we were expecting. you know whether it is species collapse whether it is glacial collapsed sea level rise historic historic storms. It's all happening so very very quickly and so there's terror there and I think we have to be honest but at the same time we are seeing a level of climate mobilization that I've never seen in my life a clarity moral clarity coming from particularly young and people who really understand that they are fighting for their futures. They're fighting for the right to plan the right to to have options in their lives to not have lives that are just punctuated by massive disaster so we're hearing that from the streets and I think even more than that we're also hearing particularly in the United States thanks to the sunrise movement and Alexandra Customer Cortez and the way that dynamic namic redrew the map and put the green new deal on the political agenda. We are also hearing a vision for a response to the climate crisis that isn't in just better than total ecological breakdown but is actually in a lot of ways better than the kind of economy. We have right now. Will you lay out in the book. You know a very compelling sort of roadmap to agree new deal and there's a lot not to be encouraged about but also you write about how the fires of climate climate breakdown are already intersecting with the fires of white supremacy in surging xenophobia around the world. Why is the green new deal the answer to that that crisis well. I think the rising white supremacy xenophobia global phenomenon we just saw the Howdy mody rally alley in Houston. We are going to take care of our Indian American citizens before we take care of illegal immigrants at WanNa important to our country and that points to the fact that this phenomenon of these serve right wing demagogues is global and it looks different in different contexts attacks in the United States. It's the invading army of migrants that he's always invoking for mody. These same others take different forms. WE'RE Z. In Kashmir we see it in his creating all of these out groups throughout the country and on the borders and using similar tactics similar technologies similar contractors taking inspiration from the way Israel is creating this infrastructure of exclusion so you I think it isn't a coincidence that these figures are rising in a moment where people understand whether they admit that has anything to do with climate change or not that we are entering an era are in an era when really unprecedented numbers of people on the move we are also in in the rubble of the neo-liberal project where there is so much economic insecurity and precarity and so this sort of formula that all of these guys have whether it's do or moldable scenario are trump. It's a very similar strategy of speaking to the economic insecurity eve of the age which is not to say that they're speaking to the most economically vulnerable they're not. They're generally speaking to the more economically secure but within a neoliberal economy everybody it feels this sense of precariousness and directing attention away from the responsibility of elites from the responsibility of their own nexus excess of corporate players that represented in their various countries and directing it towards the most vulnerable so I think we're going to see more of this and I don't think we will have a response to it. That doesn't address these underlying causes that isn't fundamentally about building a fairer economy that isn't fundamentally about redressing deep deep historical injustices and exclusions and that is what the green new deal has the potential to do and I say the potential because there are various iterations of what a green new deal might be and some of them are quite shallow and nationalistic and some of them are part deeper reckonings with the debts that are owed to block an indigenous people in the United States and also what the United States as an economy which is the world's largest historical emitter of greenhouse gases owes to the country's on the front lines of the impacts of climate change change that have done almost nothing to created because the people there are too poor to emit carbon at high levels. You know I really do believe that. We are at a crossroads throws which is really about what kind of people we are going to be as we face a future of more and more dislocation of of more and more disasters. I mean that's already locked in even with a best case scenario of keeping warming levels below one point five degrees Celsius and you you know we have a choice to make as a species about whether or not we are going to become even worst versions of ourselves. which is I think what the road that that trump and mody at all represent or whether there's going to be a real shift in values ideas like every human being life is of equal value you nobody can be allowed to be left to die because this is the formula that we're seeing thousands upon thousands of people left to drown in the Mediterranean and the emergence of this archipelago of migrant concentration camps from Libya to modernise too narrow to Texas so that is a really powerful powerful response to the way trump and others tie their rejection of climate reality to appeals to national identity and nationalism so why did the Democrats instead respond by talking about cheeseburgers just to be very honest with you? I love cheeseburgers from time to time right. I mean I I do and I think that the truth is there are real changes that we who over consume in the wealthy world and around the world. We are going to have to consume assume differently. We are not going to be able to continue to act as if there are no limits to our consumption if we look at these temper tantrums whether it's about lightbulbs. They took away our lightbulb. I want an incandescent light. I want to look better. Okay or hamburgers may want to take away your hamburger. Does this is what stalling dreamt about but never achieved or is it really cuts to the heart of this narrative narrative of these are places of limitless nature limitless growth and it's really embedded in in the stories that underpin settler colonial states like the United States and Canada and it explains why it is so incredibly hard to reckon reckon with the reality of ecological breakdown that we're living in right now. Why feels like such a personal attack because if you build your world you and you define freedom as the right to infinitely exhaust nature and that's deeply embedded in these national narratives then when something comes along like climate change and says we'll actually hit the wall and we are going to have to adjust we are going to have to change there are areas where there are going to have to be contractions ends and how much we consume? It doesn't feel like a scientific truth. It feels like an existential attack. It feels like an identity attack and this is why I think we're in this utterly irrational tape loop about what our response is going to be any time progressive start to make that argument. We're reminded of the moment when and Jimmy Carter went on television wearing sweater we must face a fight at the energy shortage is permanent. There's no way we can solve it quickly but if we all cooperate and make modest sacrifices if we learned to live thriftily and remember the importance of helping our neighbors and we can and find ways to adjust it is a political truism in Washington that you just can never ever tell Americans that they may have to consume assume less too many of us now tend to worship self-indulgent and consumption human identity entity is no longer defined by what one does sh- but by what one owns there's a a real back story to that which is interesting because there was a version of that speech and Carter had help from the cultural theorist Christopher for lash according to Lash he advised Carter and he had a proposed language in that speech where he said you know if you are going to ask Americans and to consume less. This is in the context of an energy crisis. You also have to go after the rich. You have to go after the big players as well L. There has to be a justice element to this or people will reject it and Carter didn't listen to him on that and so the speech only really he talks about regular people making sacrifices but there isn't a message that these sacrifices are going to be distributed in a way that is fair so that the people who are the biggest sort of consumers and the biggest polluters will have to sacrifice more right and so we don't actually know how Americans would have responded the two that speech if Carter had listened. That's really fascinating. I think a lot of people don't understand that you know. I think this idea that you just simply. We can't ask people to change without paying this huge political price. I don't think the evidence is there for that. I think the evidence is there for the fact that you cannot ask ask people to change with in an unfair economic architecture. So what do you take from all that with the elections elections looming the need for a fairer economic and social system is not an add on to the need need for bold climate policy. If we do not center justice we will not get it done. There will be a backlash that was true in the one thousand nine hundred seventy s before these massive economic inequalities opened up before you know what little social safety net there was was shredded and it is most certainly true in two thousand nineteen that unless the task of radically lowering emissions is married married to the imperative to build a radically fairer economy and society it will be rejected and so I hear all the time from these supposedly oser leased have serious practical climate experts saying well. Why are you weighing us down with all this justice stuff. Why can't we just have a carbon tax and isn't that so much easier than linking this with healthcare and and unionized jobs and reparations for slavery. You're just making it so so much harder and my argument is in less we link these intersecting crises together into a holistic response. We will not get any of it done. There will be a popular backlash. We are seeing it again and again and we will lose the decade we have and we just can't so the climate debate here in the US and throughout the world has been galvanized by sixteen year old girl. Someone remarked remarked me recently. Wow you know we're really in trouble. We were relying on this sixteen year old to lead us. I see it differently and perhaps it's after the evening that we had with Greta at Ethical Culture Society recently. I'm not the enemy. At least I hope nope not but many people seem to think that but they cannot argue against because I'm only saying what the scientists just saying. You can't argue against physics you cannot so that that's why they go after me and the other activists who are trying to communicate this and if there's a fire that and I and I say a fire that we need to to put the fire out is like the most reasonable reaction would be that you look at the fire. We need to put it out but now they seem to be like the look at the fire and they look look at me. Like what are you wearing and why has she been so powerful voice in this moment it's interesting what people make those remarks because of course when granite testified on Capitol Hill last week she submitted as her entire testimony. The two thousand eighteen intergovernmental panel on climate change the one point five report that told us that we had to slash global emissions in half in twelve years. It's now just eleven. I am submitting this report as my testimony because I don't want you to listen to me. I want you to listen to the scientists. Scientists and I want to unite behind science and then I want you to take real action she. She is just telling them that they should do what they have all said they should do. I think Greta is absolutely remarkable. I think she's a prophetic voice. I've met many young people bowl in the climate justice movement who also have just tremendous moral clarity and they don't get the platform the Greta has and I think it's been really moving watching in her. Try to share this huge media spotlight that is on her right now and to make space for other young people particularly young people from those frontline communities. He's Indigenous People African American young people you know who are impacted more than her by the reality of both of climate impacts and also of having fossil fuel industries in their backyards so do you think Greta Michie obviously been hugely successful in igniting this movement of youth around the world. Do you think she's actually getting through to policymakers hard to say and I don't think I don't think it's just about Greta. I think it's that Greta is now. Representing the Global Movement of children who have been coming out in huge numbers and shaming politicians we sought not recently in the United States is part of the Global Climate Strike on the Twentieth Lanao. This has become a true political phenomenon. I think in the United States the sunrise movement has had a massive impact to think that we are in a situation now where the majority of the people who want to lead the Democratic Party have to at least claim. They support a green new deal. This is a game changer so young people across the board dot just grab a are having a huge impact already. We'll see whether we end up with a scenario where there is actually a candidate that comes out of the Democratic primaries who gets this who puts a green new deal at the center of their platform and then uses it to run against Donald Trump because that's going to be the real measure of whether or not policy changes come out of this Naomi. Thank you so much for this conversation. It's been incredibly enlightening as always and congratulations on your book. Thank you so much betsy such a pleasure to talk with you. New McLean is a senior correspondent at the intercept. Her book on fire is out now. What are you guys ten ten ten ten. I caught me. Look like I'm five. What do you guys think about Lee year ago. She did the the school strike and no one was like look. No one has with her but she still kept on doing it so I think it's really interesting that she. It's been a major problem. Mike Awhile now. Some people don't really think that young people can make a difference but we're proven wrong and we make sure that'd be proven wrong and make sure that that idea turns into action the best. It sounded like inspirational message. Anybody Buddy smog can make a difference. My name is Darren Aronovski of a filmmaker and also a board member of Air Club Foundation and the School for Field Sundays. I think incredible crisis creates an opportunity to have tremendous ambition you you know I am an optimist and I believe that there is a far side of this will be a habitable beautiful art bill mckibben founder three fifty fifty dot org. I'm here because I've been at every climate global climate rally there's ever been in this is the biggest star our crew from all over the world has been checking in minute by minute and in every corner of planet. Earth people are showing up in staggering numbers are job has been to change Azide geist and case this changing days like today. Make it impossible for the people who lead us to just go back to business as usual the home team fourteen doing this. I like more people should be doing really nice to see kids who are even younger than me here doing this. They make it seem like it's something that adult radicals have to do with no. It's something everyone should be doing participating and speaking about in enjoying. It's it's nice to see on instagram when people like tax whatever it's really nice people are talking about uh-huh breath. I'm only swain. I'm the associate producer on this podcast and I WANNA WANNA. Tell you about an environmental nightmare that is largely invisible within my bloodstream and yours there chemicals that are so persistent and widespread that is hard to find anyone alive that has not been contaminated. I'm talking about a class of chemicals called P. Fos this story begins back in the nineteen nineteen forties when American companies began manufacturing and using new chemical substances that revolutionized domestic products Dupont's trademark teflon it was the nonstick miracle that made cleaning cookware so much easier even burned food won't stick to Teflon so it's always easy to clean cookware never need scouring punt Tashaun but the chemical used to make Teflon. Pf Owais or sometimes called C eight was highly toxic so was Pfos the similar compound that was used and things like Scotchgard and firefighting foam and these slippery compounds and others in their class were used in countless products like waterproof clothing stained proof coatings firefighting foam fast food wrappers microwave popcorn bags bicycle lubricants ski wax. It's communication cables and even pizza boxes so while these toxic chemicals have gone on to make all of those products it was back in nineteen sixty one that Dupont had already confirmed that pf Oei was toxic and in nineteen seventy eight three m the company that introduced and made both Oth pf Oh am PFOS knew that pf away was accumulating in their workers blood fast forward all the way to nineteen ninety nine when a farmer in West Virginia Nia named Wilbur tenants discovers that the water on his lands near Dupont factory has poisoned his cows gap. There's water I've taken dead deer and two dead cattle this watt here tenant and sues Dupont and this sets off a series of events events that was covered extensively by our next guest Sharon lerner the events were as follows dupont eventually gets fined over ten million dollars and agrees to phase out out there use of PF away then in two thousand fifteen dupont spun off its P fos business to a company called Comores and has since undergone multiple multiple corporate transformations so here we are in two thousand nineteen and the reporting on the toxicity of PF away and PFOS has gone mainstream. There was even in a documentary that featured some of Sharon's reporting called the devil. We know it was used in consumer products manufacturing products. The applications were endless. These Teflon flon and SCOTCHGARD chemicals permeated the living world and just this month there was a house oversight committee hearing on P. He fought contamination. They call that hearing the devil they knew and the representatives from all three companies Du Pont or Dupont Comores and three m were all there. They're these companies with us here. Today have screwed up and we need to hold them accountable for doing so. I hope the people representing those companies here today would admit thermos stakes so that we can all move forward and achieve. What I believe is our common goal. Sharon is still covering this and now she's discovered forty new who chemicals that are cause for grave concern. These are the invisible substances that are unknown and that her reporting is revealing for the first time I talked to Sharon about all of this so in the summer of Twenty fifteen. We published a three part series about PF. Oh a which was chemical chemical pretty much no one had heard of at that point and had been found in the water in West Virginia and Ohio near this Dupont Plant West Virginia issued he I do come me up our Ron Burke and pam naked wastewater down through two farms here you're out into the stream of water and I reported on litigation around that it turned into sort of a very very big piece about what do pun had known about. This chemical ended released into the water but they won't try keep everything hushed up in fact some big secret of some kind of dominant in here. They won't tell us what it is. They don't want to me because because I'm just an old I'm Barbara. I'm supposed to know anything Sharon for people that may not know what are chemicals and what are the sorts of things that they're Houston so beavers chemicals are these industrial compounds that have been used famous lever teflon but really for all sorts of things including firefighting foam and all sorts of weird chemical processing that none of us think about our here about and it turns out that these chemicals that we've been using for for more than fifty years also caused a huge range of health vacs and are in the blood of most everyone at this point today every every baby probably on the planet but certainly in the developed world where all these chemicals are widely used. Every baby is born with at least some level level of C. A. P. Fos in their in their blood was already in all of our bodies. It was in our blood. It was in the blood of wildlife. It was in water as it became clear to me in two thousand fifteen around the country. How did that happen so the contamination nation initially came from industrial sites places like Parkersburg West Virginia which we reported on Twenty fifteen and Minnesota Soda and Decatur Alabama where they have these big industrial sites and in each case the chemicals have leaked off the plant and into drinking water but more more broadly since two thousand fifteen realized that firefighting foam is a major source of water contamination and that these chemicals are are around us what effect to these chemicals have on our bodies so for longtime. Nobody knew for sure there. Was this group of scientists epidemiologists who in two thousand eleven and twelve linked. Pf Oh a two six different diseases seizes including two stickler cancer and kidney cancer elevated blood lipids pre ECLAMPSIA but since then it's been clear that there are many other associations including obesity developmental problems and also what's become clear through my reporting and others here's is that there was lots of evidence that these chemicals had caused serious problems in lab experience on animals cancers. There's no other things going back decades so on September tenth the House Oversight Committee held a hearing on corporate responsibility for P. He fast contamination think of as chairman. We're here today for the subcommittees third hearing this year on the large group of chemicals collectively known as pizzas they had Darrell Roberts my name's Darryl Roberts. I'm the chief operations and Engineering Officer for Dupont Park Hirsch from cameras. My name is Paul Kirsch and I'm the president of the floral a products business at Comores and Denise Rutherford from three M my name is Denise Rutherford and I am the senior vice president of corporate affairs at three m reporting reporting directly to our chairman and CEO. You really saw a lot of pushback particularly from Rutherford from three M who shockingly after are all. That's happened still insists that the chemicals don't cause health problems in the lobbying materials by the coalition. It's states am I quote the weight of current scientific evidence does not show that PFOS PF away causing verse Health Effects Facts in humans at current rates of exposure. Miss Rutherford do agree with the statement congressman. I absolutely agree with that statement. The statement goes against three the M.'s own. Scientists who for decades have been studying these chemicals and terming them quote toxic. I thought it was stunning. Statement was really bold because there's so whole much science showing that they do have health effects. I also done apiece last year. I believe it was really dug into some of the documents that three M had on these compounds that showed how they could make such a statement and that is that a lot of what what they made public kind of twisted the research so you can't prove it in the medical literature right because his they're the ones that have the information their studies are their own and for many years no one else saw them eventually the EPA fine them for withholding that information but the fine was really really small compared to the profits that came out of that chemical the focus of today's hearings BFA us. The new dupont does not manufacture PF as like many other companies today we use some PF s materials however I use is extremely limited. Nevertheless we recognize these are important issues and that's why we support legislative proposals addressing. PF as Dupont's Darrell Roberts and it is wonderful that they're talking about taking action on PF OEI MP of Os but we're still talking about pf away and Pfos and the problem is when you look at the science and you realize okay they knew about the toxicity of Pio a in the nineteen fifties right so we're trying to hold them account for that like seventy years later okay so while all of this is happening with the the committee hearing and the EPA trying to regulate the P. Faust Chemicals that we've known about for a very long time what's been happening in the meantime they've already created all these other chemicals and profited from them soon twenty sixteen. I came upon the identifying number for for this chemical called genetics which was Dupont's replacement for pf away and this became a big deal because the number allowed me to look on EPA's website to see if they had any information about it and when I plugged it in to the right place actually they did they had sixteen studies showing it was incredibly dangerous in lab animal animal experiments and was causing cancer and this is three placement. This is the replacement the replacement causes the same problems at the original does not the first time we've seen this in chemistry but really a gross you know really intense example of this right so this was one chemical and it occurred to me not that long ago that I should look more broadly at the time you know. Pf Oh am PFOS sort of all we knew and then as time has gone on it's been clear as a much much bigger class and so in decided why don't I look for all the compounds in use that have these reports on them pizzas compounds and I did I came came up with forty and these are forty compounds that have reports on them that they cause substantial risk to health or the environment so that's that's really a pretty staggering number and the other thing that I found in my reporting which sort of blew me away is that these are the compounds that at our public so he got them from this list called the Tusk inventory which is the as less chemicals in use but it turns out that there's a part of the Tusk inventory that secret you can't find the wrist report so there are a very well may be many more than forty that cause these problems but I can't know for sure because they're secret so of the forty in use right now that you found what are these reports saying rats rats dying sperm production decreased developmental toxicity convulsions liver cancer broken teeth totally alarming stuff stuff that you would want to know if say this was in your water. How long did these chemicals last in the environment. These chemicals persist essentially forever for and that's what they're called forever chemicals. They don't degrade by themselves which means that even after humans are gone from the earth. These chemicals will remain. They're going to outlast us so when you make a mistake with them when you make a mistake by okay go ahead and make them and and we're not going to actually look at where you're releasing it and which we've done now many many many times over it's a mistake that has planetary terry consequences like forever. Do you think that will ever be able to hold Dupont. Comores three M accountable in any meaningful way well I mean. Are they going to pay out more than what they made off them. No they're not but the other pieces are they going to undo the damage. They've done and that is resounding. No is completely impossible so all these chemicals are already in all of us. You can't undo that right. They're in water. You can't undo that they're in wildlife and you. You literally cannot ever clean them all up. They have changed the planet. The Sharon Lerner covers health and the environment for for the intercept her collection reporting on this topic is called bad chemistry and Fox urgent. I'm Harris Falker. An American has come out of the shadows to tell the world he is responsible for leaking information and behind what's been called the biggest intelligence leak in the history of the National Security Agency. He is twenty nine year old Edward Snowden Edward Snowden in twenty nine year old. Edward Snowden has says he did it in his words because the US government is quote destroying privacy and basic liberties around the world and I'm Kelly first look media director of information security. The first time I heard from Edward Snowden was in January twenty thirteen five months before he proved to the world the NSA was spying billions of innocent people without any probable cause at the time. I had no idea who he was or even what his name was. He sent me an encrypted email from an anonymous email address he only ever logged into easing the torn our work DOC MICA. I'm a friend. He said I need to get information securely to Laura Poitras and her alone but I can't find an email and GP key for her. Can you help nope over the next several months. I acted as a sort of encryption and operational security expert helping make sure that ad could communicate securely over the Internet Internet with Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald while he was preparing to meet them in Hong Kong over the last nearly seven years. We've kept in touch occasionally working working on projects together today. We're both members of freedom of the press foundation were ad serves as President Okay then let me go go ahead and start with pencil and you guys can end around. Put voice over before it or whatever you need. The two men surveillances more clear I think to most people than the government's preferred word bulk collection which to my mind threatens to give a falsely fuzzy impression of the agencies work book collection makes it sound like a particularly busy post office or Sanitation Department as opposed to have historic effort to achieve total access to and clandestinely took possession of the records of the whole digital communications existence. Once a common ground of terminology is established misperceptions can still abound most people even today tend to think of mass surveillance in terms of content the actual terms they use when they make a phone call or write an email when they find out that the government actually carries comparatively little about that content they tend to care comparatively little about government surveillance. This relief is understandable to a degree due to what each of us must regard as uniquely revealing and intimate character of our communications the sound of our voice almost as personal as a thumbprint the imitable facial expression that we put in a Selfie sent by text the unfortunate truth however is that the content of our communications is rarely as revealing as other elements the unwritten unspoken information that can expose the broader context and patterns behavior the NSA Kohl's this Meta data terms prefix prefix Meta which traditionally translated as above or beyond is here used the sense of about Meta data is data about data data. It is more accurately dated that his made by data cluster of tags markers that allow data to be useful all the records of all all the things you do on your devices and all the things that your devices to on their own take a phone call for example. It's Meta data might include the date and time of the cold all the calls to raise the number from which the call was made the number being called and their locations and emails Meta data might include information about what type of computer generated on where when or who the computer belonged to who sent the email who received at wearing when it was sent sent and received and who if anyone besides the sender and recipient accessed it and where and when meditate until you're surveillance the address you slept at last night what time you got up this morning it reveals every place you visited during your day and and how long you spent there it shows who you were in touch with and who is in touch with you. It's this fact that obliterates any the government claimed that Meta data is not a direct window into the substance of communication with the dizzying volume volume of digital communications in the world there simply no way that every phone call could be listened to every email could be read even even if it were feasible however still wouldn't be useful and anyway meditate makes this unnecessary by winning the field. That's why it's best to regard meditate edited not as some benign abstraction but as the very essence of content it is precisely the first line of Information Mation that the party surveilling you requires. There's another thing too content is usually defined as something when you knowingly produce you know what you're saying during phone call war what you're writing in an email but you have hardly any control over the Meta data you produced because it is generated automatically just as it's collected stored and analyzed by machine it's made by machine to without your participation or even your consent and Ed joins me now to talk about his new book permanent record. Welcome back to intercept it out. Thanks for having me and my could be here. The day that you published your book. The Department of Justice filed a lawsuit against you for not letting them read it and censor it beforehand. How does that make you feel incredibly grateful. I should send the Attorney General. Thank you card. You know look it's very serious thing being sued by the United States government and this is only a sort of further evidence they will do anything they can to make my life harder and to discourage the public from hearing the things that I have to say say when the government came out and said you know this is a book we very much. Don't want the public to read even though they said we're not going to stop publication location the book. They didn't do that because they didn't want to. Stop Publication Book. They did it because they couldn't under the constitution fourth amendment barred them from doing so and that naturally made everybody go whoa what's in this book. Maybe we should pay attention to this at the government doesn't want us to see and we went from basically number twenty five. I think on on the sales charts right up to number one in a single day well congratulations all you need trump tweet and you'll you'll be you'll be good the biggest book of the year so it's been almost seven years since you blew the whistle is NSA still spying on everyone everyone yeah of course they are. I didn't come forward to shut down the NSA. I wasn't trying to to burn down the building that would have been easier ear to do without telling anybody about it because I was what they call a systems administrator many points in my career this means. I had access to really do anything I wanted to into their network. I came forward for something different. which is this idea that prior twenty thirteen? You know you people knew at least some people academics researchers technologists people were following reporting very closely that these capabilities were possible but there's difference between speculating that these programs exist seeing unconfirmed reports that they exist and actually having a factual understanding that not only could the government or or or anyone technically monitored the Internet and the phone network on a massive meaning untargeted sort of dragnet scale but it was actually actually happening and this is the importance of twenty thirteen in the revelations of mass surveillance and largely whistleblowing generally. You don't want a whistle missile blower to say look. I'm the president of the moment I'm going to say. This is how you need to live. This is the law should be no. That's not what it's about. It's about changing the conversation from speculation to fact because democracy that's that's everything the government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed and when we vote right. We're supposed to be imposing a mandate on the government to rule but if we don't know what the government is doing and worse the government is actively typically lying to us as they were in that moment at consensus not meaningful because it's not informed and we're no longer partner to government right. We're we're in a logger holding the leash we are subject to government in a real way being leashed ourselves. Now we understand what's going on Niane large way we haven't completely reformed the system although we have had some of the most important reforms intelligence since the nineteen seventies but this is not a question for for me me to answer it. It's really questioned for us. We see the NSA is spying on us. We see every intelligence agency. World is now spying on us. We see that facebook and Google are increasingly spying on us the question before us is what are we going to do about it. When you left Hong Kong you are on your way to Ecuador or when you first landed in the Sherman Devo airport you wrote about getting pulled into a conference room where you were approached by. FSBA agents the F. FBI the Federal Security services sort of like the FBI Russia and they give you a cold pitch where they ask you if you wanted to work for them and you immediately refused so since if you've been in Russia have you been approached by any other government officials from Russia no because I refuse to to meet with them what I was worried about was not agreeing to cooperate with the Russian government because that was never my intention and for the record I never have and I never will cooperate with the Russian government in any form form. I'm no longer going to operate with any intelligence services a matter of principle but what we had in this moment was I was really one of the most famous people on Earth at least for the week. I was on every TV channel. I was on the front page of every newspaper because because the US government had decided to chase around the world behind one of the biggest leaks in the history of US intelligence who is Edward Snowden. How did he steal top top secret files. Edward Snowden is on the run at this hour from Hong Kong to Moscow and maybe maybe we just don't know beyond never intended did end up in Russia. I was actually on route to Latin America when the United States government wants they heard I had left Hong Kong. They cancelled my passport which meant I couldn't leave and so the Russian government of course has any government would they approached me and they said basically Will you help us. Will you cooperate but the thing is. They don't actually need you to cooperate in order to compromise you in order to us sort of destroy your reputation. All they need to do is to catch you on tape thinking about it and this is why I saw aggressively immediately sort of shut it down. I had to be polite. Terai because the last thing I need world at this moment is more enemies but I also the need to make it very clear that I'm not going to cooperate with them now or ever again. They realize I think they're they're. They're not sure what to do but they know I don't have have any information with me. I destroyed it before. I got on the plane to Hong Kong. Only journalists had this you mentioned that you never intended to stay in Moscow Moscow. You never you're on your way to Ecuador or you got your passport revoked in. You're stuck there and I thought that the part of your book where you discussed the lake forty days and forty nights in the airport and all of the massive amount of work you did to try to get asylum in various countries with interesting. Can you just talk a little bit about why you ended up being stuck there so in this period the because I refuse to cooperate with the Russian intelligence services. I was in a very difficult Michael Position Right. If I had said yes sure guys. I'll tell you anything you want. I would have been driven out of the airport day one in a limousine living palace instead. I said no look guy. I don't want to be here. This is not my choice what I'm GonNa do is I'm going to ask the world for justice and so I applied for some twenty seven different countries around the world places like like Germany places like France places like Norway that really nobody's afraid of and everybody's comfortable with every time I would hear that at one of their governments was starting to lean in the position of where they would grant asylum David Viet news story or I would get an apology from someone from one of those countries governments that say we just got a phone call our foreign ministry from and it was always one of two people it was then the secretary of State. I wonder if Mr Snowden chose China and Russia as assistance in his few you know in his flight from justice because they're such powerful bastions of Internet freedom or it was the vice president of the United States when we look at that period they said look. We don't care that he does qualify for asylum. We don't care that he has been charged with political crimes. We don't care that under an international human rights law context this persecution not prosecution. If you do anything to help this guy we're going to retaliate. They're going to be consequences. They wouldn't say what those consequences were but it was a very serious phone call and immediately these countries we go. Let's let's let this be someone else's problem. This was sort of a long dark period and it's only at the very end of this that I was allowed to leave that Russian airport and that's when I said well Russia will you let me out of this airport and they said yes and I think it's because honestly they just didn't know what to do. This was a period where big would look weak if they sent me back to the United States government and everyone who's however much you don't like the Russian government government they don't want to look weak and if they're being pushed around by by the White House that that looks bad to the Russian public and so they let me me out and I've been trapped here ever since but I'm still by the way happy to go to France Germany or anywhere else if they'll open their doors. So why won't you it just come back to the United States than faith trial. There is no fair trial offered hundred the laws that I'm being charged with and this is an extraordinary thing that almost no one knows and the government has worked work very hard to keep the public from understanding under the laws of the United States. There is a very rare type of crime caught a strict liability crime strict liability ability crime means. You are forbidden from telling the jury why it is that you did what you did and the jury's forbidden from considering whether or not what you did was it justified even the worst crimes that we have even in the case of murder murder is not strict liability crime but in the case of talking talking to journalists when you work for the CIA or the NSA. You've signed one of these secrecy agreements. If you report that the government itself is breaking taking the law to a journalist the government says that's a strict liability crime. this is what's called the espionage act and it applies the same to actual foreign spies people who are selling secrets for their own private profit as it does to whistleblowers people who are giving information of critical public importance two journalists for no personal benefit so this is the thing that I've said to the government I will go and face a trial any day of the week and this has been the the negotiating position of legal team since year one. All you have to do is guarantee. The whistle blowers will have a right to a public interest defense right now. All this means is that the government has to have the jury consider two questions. One was the law broken to was justified and the government says says look. We don't want to have that conversation. We don't want the jury to have to consider evidence that yes the United States government did break the law yes. The united in states government did violate the constitution. Yes the United States government did violate the rights of these fine people sitting on the jury because that would be a very uncomfortable conversation I think for them and they worry that the jury might be more inclined to side with me and the public more broadly than they would be to side I with the government the minute that changes I'll be back to face trial and I think that's true with the lower espionage act cases to this is actually really quite a timely question because just last week in the case of another American whistleblower a young man by the name of Daniel Hale who's alleged to have given documents arguments about the US government's drone program right that we're talking about extrajudicial killings because the government has made a secret finding this this person dangerous a secret finding that there are terrorist for that findings never been reviewed by a court and in some cases under the Obama White House. These drones have actually been used to kill people who are American citizens in the case of on more all a lucky and his son who actually killed separately. The Sun was actually. I think only fifteen sixteen years old when it happened. Daniel Hale is accused of not giving secrets to the enemy not being a spy. His crime is the same as my own the government accuses him of aiding and abetting and active journalism which is a crime under the espionage Pinata Act and so the government just submitted a filing last week that said they want the judge to do exactly what I just said. They want the judge to forbid the jury from hearing why he did what he did. They want the jury to be forbidden from considering whether these programs are legal and they want the jury to be completely forbidden from considering whether or not the public benefited from this young man's courage in telling journalists about what the government was actually doing behind closed doors if the jury if the American people are forbidden from considering whether the crime itself is revealing the government's crime. How do you have a fair trial if the jury can ask the question well who exactly exactly is the real criminal here one thing that I found really interesting reading your book was the whole chapter about heartbeat and how when you were working working at the NSA facility in Hawaii you manage to get such should giant trove of documents that in way that it wasn't tied directly to your name aim and you're logging. Could you just talk a little bit about what heartbeat was and how that worked well so it wasn't it wasn't connected to my name. It was connected to the office of Information Shen sharing but it turned out. I was the office of information sharing. This is a little historical irony but yeah so how how this works is imagine that you're working at the NSA imagine over the course of a long career in intelligence working at different agencies but the CIA and the NSA working in both technical and operational positions right you had discovered the government is probably breaking the law. You're not one hundred percent but you think people should hear hear about this. You're not just going to throw these things up on the Internet. Because what if you're wrong so you WANNA work through journalists you want people can fact check this. You want people who can basically decide for the public. What public really needs to know? But what do you do. And how do you get it to journalists Swin. All of these documents are buried in a secret facility top secret facility in fact under a pineapple field in Hawaii called the tunnel. What's the director of the National Security Agency. You're supposed to have access to all the secrets but all these secrets are held on computers and you're not a computer specialist year old political science major or something like that or an NBA that the government's appointed to oversee this agency and you say hey. I want to know about this. I want to know about this well. Somebody has to get that for you. Somebody has to run the system. Somebody asks have total control over it. Somebody has to howled all the keys and that guy happened to be me and so what I did in the office of information sharing was constructed this system that I called the heartbeat which which went into basically every major repository of classified information both at the NSA and in other agencies ended acted as a kind of aggregate gator like a news aggregate or if you think about going to a google news page or read it or your twitter feed or facebook. There's some algorithm somewhere in that. The thing is the most relevant stories of the day for you. Mr User and I was creating the classified equivalent this that looks at the entire work of the US this intelligence community the byproduct of this was suddenly that I was at the center of the network. I could see everything happening everywhere. You're in the more I saw as I understood the big picture I understood all my previous work. In my previous positions in intelligence work all of the little cogs that I am building in isolation not knowing the big picture had in fact been a part of a larger machine and all of these little things that I had helped build my labor over the course of my professional career had in fact helped produce this system of mass surveillance and there were so many teams in so many officers who are doing the same thing and they had no idea what was happening because so few of US could see the big picture and now seeing all come into context seeing the whole puzzle fit together you go what what do you do and this begins the phase of the book for those who are interested about how it is exactly that I actually hacked the NSA one of the reasons why I am so curious about this specific phases because in like all of the recent whistleblower cases government whistleblowers. We're the whistlers got caught. It was early because of this because they have to use computers to access documents and the computers are logging every single thing that they do given this given that everybody is being watched especially government workers with security clearances. What advice would you give to a government worker occur today. The first and foremost is not a question for whistleblowers at all. It's for us a society. If we don't create structures to guarantee whistleblower blower some form of protection we don't give people the ability to report evidence of serious crimes to the public right it not to the people who are responsible for the perpetuation of those crimes we need whistleblowers or those accused under the espionage access is to a fair trial right. They need that public interest defense but you have to look at things from the side of the investigators. The government sees a newspaper paper publish a story that they don't like instantly. They are going to call for an investigation instantly. They are going to go all right this document in the newspaper. Give me a list of everyone who has access to Stockton on the network and if careful as a whistle blower you know on this. This group of people can be quite large if it's a popular document of big document that a lot of people have had read that could be thousand people on the list. If if it's very specialised document the number of people who read the document could be ten or it could be one just two and then that investigation can be quite short then then you're in law trouble doesn't matter how careful you are in terms of operational security practices doesn't matter if they can't find any hard evidence on it. It's not going to be hard for them to build well just a circumstantial case to the jury that they should convict you and we have to remember in the United States. juries convict almost all the time then we have to go all right. This is limiting. What kind of information whistle blowers sources can provide to journalist US safely so then we have a hard question to react safely or do we act freely to maintain a free and open society means assuming some level of risk that means recognising you can have sort of bad outcome here and when we look at these cases his the Terry Albuquerque's the Daniel Hales and most especially I think the reality winners one of the common criticisms of these people is that they made so many mistakes in the way they went about this. They left all of these big trails on the network. The government was always going to find out who they did. You know the journalists couldn't protect them and that may be true but that misses the point think. There's a better way of looking at it which they knew exactly what was going to happen but they they did it anyway because they care about what was going to happen to this country. If we didn't know about these things they thought about what was going to happen to their families. They thought about what what's going to happen to the future if the government could continue to engage in unethical were unlawful behavior without the public knowledge and awareness and because of that even even though they knew they were likely to get caught. They took these risks anyway and they took them for us. The question is not how these whistleblowers I can protect themselves. The question is how do we protect them well. We're going to leave it there. Thank you so much for being on the show. Add always a pleasure. Thanks so much for bringing that snowden his new memoir permanent record is out now well that does it for this week. Show you can follow us on twitter at intercepted. If you like what we do support our show by going to the intercept dot com slash join to become a sustaining member intercepted is a production of first look media and the intercept. I'm the editor in chief of the intercept. Our lead producer is jacked as Doro grow. Our producer is Laura Flynn. At least swain is our associate producer and graphic designer are executive producers. Towel Milad Rick Quan mixed the show doc transcription for this program is done by Maria Marquez Martinez our music as always was composed. Dj Spooky thanks for Listening Jeremy Scahill. We'll be back soon. I'm Betsy Reid.

US government Edward Snowden Edward Snowden Greta Hong Kong Betsy Reed Sharon Lerner Sharon Greta Tonsberg president Dupont Dupont National Security Agency Naomi Klein Russian government New York Russia Jeremy Scahill
Why we get mad -- and why it's healthy | Ryan Martin

TED Talks Daily

13:52 min | 1 year ago

Why we get mad -- and why it's healthy | Ryan Martin

"This Ted talk features. Psychologist, Ryan, Martin recorded live at tax fondue lock twenty eighteen. Hey, this is Dora. Those bites the people each week, Britney pack net Clinton at that. They're famous younger. Join me to talk about the news. It's not getting of coverage. It's not getting the play. We talk about all the news. You don't know we discuss things like police reform. Reproductive rights school Lynch programs. Education, biting rates in so much more in each episode of also joined by experts influences and diverse local national leaders for in-depth conversations. Some of our guests have included actress Ellis Ross intake crew. Speaking Pelosi Representative Maxine Waters, Edward Snowden and Representative odds Andrea Kazu Cortez, so go take a listen to parts of the people. Now wherever you get your podcasts. All right. So I want you to imagine that you get a text from a friend in a reads, you will not believe what just happened. I'm so mad right now. So you do the dutiful thing as a friend, and you ask for details, and they tell you a story about what happened to them at the gym or at work or on their day last night. And you listen, you try to understand why they're so mad, maybe even secretly judge whether or not they should be so mad. And maybe even offers some suggestions, now in that moment you were doing essentially what I get to do every day because I'm an anger researcher. And as an anger researcher, I spent a good part of my professional life. Who am I kidding also my personal life studying why people get mad? I studied the types of thoughts. They have the get mad. And I even study what they do when they get mad, whether it's giving it a fights or breaking things or even yelling at people in all caps on the internet. And as you can imagine when people hear anger researcher they wanna talk to me about their anger. They wanna share with me their anger stories, and it's not because they need a therapist, though, that does sometimes happen. It's really because angers universal it's something we all feel and it's something they can relate to. We've been feeling it since the first few months of life when we didn't get what we wanted and our cries of protests things like what do you mean? You won't pick up the rattle dad. I want it. We feel it throughout our teenage years as my mom can certainly attest to you with me. Sorry. Mom, we feel it to the very end. In fact, anger has been with us some of the worst moments of our lives. It's a natural and expected part of our grief, but it's also been with us at some of the best moments of our lives with those special occasions like weddings and vacations often marred by these everyday frustrations. Bad weather travel delays that fuel horrible in the moment, but then are ultimately forgotten when things go. Okay. So I have a lot of conversations with people about their anger in his through those conversations that I've learned that many people, and I bet many people in this room right now. You see anger, a problem, you see the way it interferes in your life, the way, damages relationships, maybe even the ways it's scary. And while I get all of that, I see anger a little differently in today, I want to tell you something really important about your anger, and it's this anger is a powerful and healthy force in your life. It's good that you feel it. You need to feel it. But to understand all that we actually have to back up and talk about why we get mad in the first place. And a lot of this comes back to the work of an angry researcher named Dr Jerry deafen Bacher, who wrote about this back in one thousand nine hundred six in a book chapter on hundred dealers problematic anger now for most of us, and I bet most of you, if feels as simple as this, I get mad when I'm provoked you hear it in the language people use they say things like it makes me so mad when people drive the slow aren't got mad because she left the milk out again or my favorite. I don't have an anger problem, people just need to stop messing with me. Now in the spirit of better understanding, those types of provocations. I ask a lot of people including my friends, and colleagues, and even family. What are the things that really get to you? What makes you mad? And by the way, now's a good time to point out, one of the advantages of being an anger, researcher is that I've spent more than a decade generating a comprehensive list of all the things that really irritate my call colleagues write in case I need it. But they're answers are fascinating because they say things like when my sports team loses people chew too loudly at it's surprisingly common, by the way, people who walk to slowly that one's mine, and of course roundabouts, right? Roundabouts. I can tell you, honestly, there is no rage, roundabout rage. Sometimes their answers aren't minor at all. Sometimes they talk about racism, and sexism, and bullying, and environmental destruction. Big klobuchar problems. We all face. But sometimes their answers are very specific. Maybe even oddly specific that wet line, you get across your shirt when you accidentally lean against the counter of a public bathroom. Super gross. Right. So or flash drives, so only two ways to plug them in. So why does it always take me three tries? Now, whether it's minor or major, whether it's general or specific, we can look at these examples, and we can tease out some common themes. We get angry in situations that are unpleasant that feel unfair where goals are blocked that could have been avoided and that leave us feeling powerless, this is a recipe for anger, but you can also tell that angers probably not the only thing we're feeling in these situations. Anger doesn't happen in a vacuum. We can feel angry at the same time that we're scared or sad or feeling host of other emotions. But here's the thing, these provocations. They aren't making us mad at least not on their own. And we know that because if they were we'd all get angry over the same things, and we don't the reasons I get angry are different than the reasons you get angry. So there's gotta be something else going on. What is that something else where we know what we're doing in feeling at the moment of that provocation matters? We call this the. Pre anger state are you hungry are you? Tired, are you anxious about something else? Are you running late for something when you're feeling those things those provocations feel that much worse? But what matters most south the provocation south the pre anger state. It's this, it's how we interpret that provocation. How we make sense of it in our lives when something happens to us, we, I decide is this good or bad. Is it fair or unfair? Blameworthy is punishable. That's primary appraisal. It's when you evaluate event itself, we decide what it means in the context of our lives. And then once we've done that we decide how bad it is. That's secondary praise. All right. We say is this the worst thing that's ever happened. Or can I cope with this? Now to illustrate that I want you to imagine you are driving somewhere. And before I go any further I should tell you, if I were an evil genius, and I wanted to create a situation that was going to make you mad that situation would look a lot like driving. It's true. You are by definition on your way somewhere. So everything that happens traffic other drivers road construction. It feels like it's blocking your goals. They'll, there are all these written and unwritten rules of the road and those rules are routinely violated right in front of you. Usually without consequence in who's violating those rules. Anonymous, others people you will never see again, making them a very easy target for your wrath. So you're driving somewhere thus teed up to be angry. And the person in front of you is driving, well below the speed limit, and it's frustrating because you can't really see why they're driving so slow. Right. That's primary Prado. You've looked at this and you said, it's bad and it's blameworthy, but maybe you also decide it's not that big a deal. You're not in a hurry doesn't matter. That's secondary appraisal. You don't get angry. But now imagine you're on your way to a job interview with that person's doing it hasn't changed. Right. So primary appraisal doesn't change. Still bad still blameworthy, but you're ability to cope with it. Sure does because all of a sudden, you're going be late to that job interview. All of a sudden, you are not going to get your dream job. The one that was going to give you piles and piles of money. Somebody else is going to get your dream job and you're going to be broke you're going to be destitute might as well. Stop now turn around move in with your parents. Why because of this person in front of me scratched out? This is not a person. This is a monster. And this monster is here just to ruin your life. Now that thought process, it's called catastrophes. The one where we make the worst of things, and it's one of the primary types of thought, so we know is associated with chronic anger. But there's a couple of others, attributing conservation, angry people tend to put blame where it doesn't belong, not just on people, but actually an animate objects as well. And if you think that sounds ridiculous thing about the last time you lost your car keys, and you said where did those keys go right? Because you know they ran off on their own. They tend to over generalize. These words like always never every this, always happens to me. I never get what I want, or I hit every stop light on the way here today demanding this, they put their own needs ahead of the needs of others. I don't care why this person is driving so slow they need to speed up or move over. So I can get to this job interview and finally inflammatory labeling. They call people fools, idiots monsters, or a whole bunch of things have been told. I'm not allowed to say during this time. So for a long time, psychologists have referred to these, as cognitive distortions or even a rational beliefs. And yeah, sometimes they are irrational, maybe even most the time. But sometimes these talents are totally rational. There is unfair nece in the world. There are cruel selfish people, and it's not only okay to be angry when we're treated poorly. It's right to be angry when we're treated poorly. If there's one thing I want you to remember from my talk today. It's this your anger exists in you, as an emotion, because it offered your ancestors, both human and non human within evolutionary advantage. It's one just as you are fear alert you to danger, your anger allergic to injustice. It's one of the ways your brain communicates to you that you have had enough. Once more it energizes you to confront that injustice think for a second about the last time you got mad. Your heart rate increased your breathing increased started sweat. That's you're sympathetic nervous system, otherwise, known as your fight or flight system, kicking you, excuse me, kicking in to offer you the energy, you need to respond. And that's just the stuff you noticed at the same time your digestive system. It's slowed down, so you could conserve energy. That's why your mouth went dry and your blood vessels dilated to get muscle to give blood tear extremities. That's why you're face went red. It's all part of this complex pattern of physiological experiences that exists today because they helped your ancestors deal with cruel and unforgiving forces of nature. And the problem is that the thing your ancestors did to deal with their anger to physically fight. There are no longer reasonable or appropriate. You can't you shouldn't swing a club every time you're provoked. But here's the good news. You are capable of something, your non human ancestors weren't capable of, and that is the capacity to regulate your emotions, even when you wanna lash out, you can stop yourself and you can channel that anger into something more productive so often when we talk about anger. We talk about how to keep from getting angry. We tell people to calm down or relax, we even tell people to let it go, and all of that, assumes, the anger is bad, and that it's wrong to feel it. But instead, I like to thank of anger, as a motivator the same way your thirst motivates you to get a drink of water the same way your hunger motivates you to get a bite to eat your anger can motivate you to respond to injustice, because we don't have to think too hard to find things we should be mad about when we go back to the beginning. Yeah, some of those things they're silly and not worth getting angry over a racism, sexism, bullying environmental destruction. Those things are real those things are terrible, and the only way to fix them is to get mad. I and then channel that anger into fighting back and you don't have to fight back with aggression, or hostility or violence, their infinite ways that you can express your anger. You can protest you can write letters to the editor, you can donate to volunteer for causes, you create art increased literature in create poetry music, you can create a community that cares, for one, another does not allow those atrocities to happen. So the next time you feel yourself getting angry. Senator trying to turn it off. I hope you'll listen to what that angers telling you. And then I hope you'll channel it into something positive and productive. Thank you. For more TED talks to Ted dot com.

researcher Ted dot Representative Ellis Ross Clinton Maxine Waters Pelosi Ryan Andrea Kazu Cortez klobuchar Dr Jerry deafen Bacher sympathetic nervous system Martin Senator editor Edward Snowden milk
Target USA -- Extra: Assange Arrested

Target USA Podcast by WTOP

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Target USA -- Extra: Assange Arrested

"And now an ad from dad, right? Save money on car insurance when you bundle home and auto with progressive. Gotta take these off. What is this? Wow. Where did you get this? I'm talking to you with the hair. Yeah. Where did you get this? Good stuff. Solid. That's not veneer that solid stuff. Progressive can't save you from becoming your parents. But we can't save you money when you bundle home and auto. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurance discounts not available in all states or situations. The question is when did this get started? Well, it appears as though there was some movement on the fifth of April. When tweets were exchanged between the foreign minister of Ecuador, Jose Valencia and WikiLeaks, and he said rumors of the imminent departure of Assange, come from months ago. The government will not comment on current unfounded. Rumors which are also insulting Ecuador makes its decisions in a sovereign and independent way from other countries. This came after WikiLeaks tweeted that there is an agreement between the United Kingdom and Ecuador for the arrest of Assange in quote hours or days. There had been quite a bit of speculation about this and having followed some of the speculation starting back more than a week ago. It was pretty clear that something was afoot. In fact, Edward Snowden who's notorious himself for stealing and leaking intelligence and information that belong to the US government begins something of a campaign trying to defend this on saying, essentially, regardless of what you think of him as a person, his human rights are important and this all came to a head overnight when the British police went in and arrested him. So there's a question about why he's being arrested now because in may of twenty seventeen Swedish prosecutors dropped their investigation into the rape accusation against Assange and applied to revoke the European arrest warrant that arrest warrant was why he fled to the Ecuadorian embassy in the first place, the London metropolitan police indicated that an arrest warrant was enforced for his failure. Or to surrender himself on bail. So that's still in flux at that point. Another question is will he be turned over to the US? So why is Edward Snowden speaking up for Julian Assange, it's not clear, we do know that Edward Snowden is in Russia, presumably with the blessing of the Russian government. And interestingly enough in September of two thousand eighteen the guardian newspaper reported that Russian diplomats had held secret talks in London in two thousand seventeen with people close to Assange to assess whether or not they could help him get out of the UK. In other words, a plan to sneak him out of the embassy and into a nother country the plan to sneak Assange out of the embassy and out of the country was supposed to take place on Christmas Eve 2017, but it was aborted deemed too risky, and all of this took place as a result of the fact that it became known that the. Ecuadorian government had grown tired of Assange is presence. And of all the negativity surrounding him being inside the Ecuadorian embassy stylized lounge presents an evening with the progressive. Fox. Yeah. That's you go tickling the ivories. He just saved. By bundling home and auto progressive gonna finally by ring that gal of yours Hugo send my condolences. This next one's free. There's. In my all. Thank you. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Discounts on available in all states or situations. I'm Rita Foley with an AP newsmen at London police have arrested Julian Assange on extradition charges to the United States as well as for violating his bail. Assange is accused of publishing classified documents through WikiLeaks in twenty ten he told Sky News. He was worried about what the US might do to him United States recently showing that institutions seem to be failing failing to follow the rule of law and with doing the superpower that does not appear before ending following the rule of law as a serious business. He also said in two thousand ten the US officials had threatened him and those associated with them has been many cold by senior figures in the United States, including elected ones in the Senate from my execution of the keep napping of my staff. Edward Snowden, the former security contractor who leaked classified information about US Valence, bro. Graham says the arrest of a song is a blow to media freedom. I'm Rita Foley.

Julian Assange US Edward Snowden WikiLeaks London Ecuador Rita Foley United Kingdom Fox Sky News Senate rape Graham Jose Valencia Russia Hugo
Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town (part 02)

Cory Doctorow's craphound.com » Podcast

32:27 min | 3 months ago

Someone Comes to Town, Someone Leaves Town (part 02)

"Hi Welcome back to the doctor. A podcast I am in quarantine like you and like you I'm finding pretty weird. I think maybe the weirdest thing is the normalcy now. We are really getting into I. Guess it's like two months now, and it's really becoming just. The way we live now and I am keenly aware. Having had long weird interact before in my life that things can become normal again really quickly when the extraordinary circumstances and but yeah, it's become pretty Dang normal. Okay so this week. I'm doing a couple of conference talks that you can dial into on May, the fourth. Probably the day this goes out maybe just after this comes out in which case I apologize I'm going to be speaking on a panel called fair use under the Galactic Empire for May the fourth, which is Star Wars Day. It's hosted by the scum and Villainy Cantina and on May the seventh I'm doing a keynote for Berlin Republica Conference, which is obviously all online. This year the keynotes called the collapse about the collapse in our faith in institutions, and what that means for a world under pandemic down. So last week, I mentioned that there was a big announcement coming in relation to attack surface, the third little brother Book I can now make that announcement. In case you missed it in the text only world that I inhabit between these podcasts and the big news this. If you preorder attack surface, you will get a free short story. A little brother shirts story marcus yellow short. Story called Force multiplier. That's about stalker wear by an incredible coincidence. The same day that story came out motherboard which. which is part of Vice reported that the NS Oh group who sell cyber weapons to dictators had to fire an employee for using their cyber weapons to stalk someone that they were romantically interested, in which is very close to the plot of force, multiplier truth is stranger than fiction etcetera etcetera, force, multipliers available as an e book, and you also get it as an audio book I read an audio edition of it, and that's also in the package. It is only us in Canada for now. I am working on getting Zeus, which is the UK Australia New Zealand. South Africa sort of rest of Commonwealth publisher to do that, they're happy to do it. They're just a little behind. Because frankly, it's my fault. I didn't give them enough notice so they'll have that really soon and then I'm also working on getting permission to just do rest of world. What's called open territory and I'm sure McMillan will come through without permission, and we'll just have a deal. Where if you buy an advanced copy of tax surface, but you don't live in the anglosphere. You just send me your receipt and I'll send you a link to. To download those that. That'll be fine, so yeah, everyone's GonNa. Be Able to get a rest easy. The book itself comes out on October the twelfth. It will be preceded on July. The seventh by a special omnibus edition of little, Brother and homeland with an introduction, really frankly amazing introduction by Edward Snowden I am so proud to have ad introducing one of my books, and it's going to be very exciting when that edition comes out. It's also very beautiful edition it's it's got a new cover to match my adult novels. Those covers are made by will stay. He's an incredible incredible cover. Artist. I believe he's up for. For a Hugo were this year for best illustrator. He is an amazing artist and versatile, and has so many modes operates in and the the way he's been turning out. My covers just makes me so so happy. What else is going on well the same week that reissue of little brother and homeland comes out on July the fourteenth. You'll be able to get my first ever picture book. A book called Posey the Monster Slayer, which is a book about a little girl who doesn't want to go to bed, because it's so much more fun to tear apart and repurpose toys, field, expedient, monster, hunting, weapons and to hunt. Hunt the monsters in her bedroom, defying her parents and gradually turning them Antezana. Sambas because they can't get any sleep because she's making too much noise. It's an adorable bedtime story with beautiful illustrations by Matt Rockefeller about monsters and monster kids. It's Super Fun. It's the book that I wanted to read to my kid. It's the book I would have loved to have read. When I was a kid, I was a giant monster. Not and if you've got a monster kid in your life, or if you want the kids in your life to grow up to be good, old fashioned monster kids. This is the book for them. I am continuing to work on pluralistic pluralistic. Is My post boing boing, daily blog and newsletter, Tumbler, twitter, feed and mastodon feed. It's a little different from the structure of my boy mowing post which I did for nineteen years. I left Boeing Boeing on my nineteen th anniversary there, but you know they share a lot of DNA I've started to post long-form book reviews to the site today. I ran one of the first ones. It's a review of Jordan match diary of his creation of the video game Prince of Persia, which is actually a really spectacular book I urge you to go read the review, pluralistic dot net, and it will. will be in the May. The addition pluralistic dot net, and now I'm going to move onto the reading I'm going to continue reading. Someone comes to town. Someone leaves town. That's my weird, two thousand and nine novel about a guy whose father is a mountain, and whose mother is a washing machine and in this reading we're GonNa meet Kurt Kurt is a high tech dumpster diver who goes out to Toronto's industrial parks and pulls e-waste out of dumpsters and rehabilitates it and resells it and Kurtz based on a real person. mild friend. Darren Atkinson started off life as a musician who went dumpster diving for things like speakers and. And amps and other musical equipment, but started finding these enormous troves of really high quality, electronic equipment computer equipment in the same dumpsters that he was visiting and hooked up with another friend of Mine Mike Blum. Who was an electrical engineer and computer hacker who helped him rehabilitate these things and sell them and Mike and Darren and I went out dumpster diving together and I sold my first ever feature to wired nineteen ninety-seven based on that adventure. It's just a a piece called dumpster diving. It'll be in the show notes because wired's archives are very deep for so long as conde. NAST is still going concern, I hear rumblings that. That it might not be which is a very sad thing. And then Darren took me and my wife out dumpster diving again one time when we were visiting, Toronto, he is spectacular an interesting fellow. We've kind of lost touch. I feel very sad about it, Darren if you're listening, say hello, and although he's not really like. Cut The character in the story. All of the things that Kurt does come straight out of the Darren Atkinson playbook. He is definitely my Ghomi Sensei. which is what he used to call himself. Anyway, that is the setup for today's reading and here comes part. Two of someone comes to town. Someone leaves town. Mimi was curiously and incomprehensively affectionate, after she had buttoned up her dress, and resumed walking toward the Strip clubs along Richmond Street. She put her hand on his forearm and murmured funny commentary about the outlandishly attired club kids in their plastic, cowboy hats, sailor, moon, outfits and plastic tuxedos. She plucked a cigarette from his lips, and dragged on it put it back into his mouth, still damp with her saliva, an act that sent a shiver down Allens neck, and made the hair on the backs of his hands. Stand up. She seemed to think that the wings were self explanatory and needed no further discussion and Alan was content to let them stay in his mind's eye bat shaped powerful, restless surrounded by their grid work of angry scars. Once they got to the club Shasta disaster, a renovated brick bank with robotic halogen spots that swept the sidewalk out front with a throbbing, Penis Logo Mark She, let go of his arm, and her body stiffened, she said something in the dorms ear, and he let her pass when Alan tried to lower, the bouncer stopped him with Immedi hand on his chest. Can I help you, sir, he said flatly he was basically a block, fat and muscle with a head on top arms, as thick as Allen's thighs, barely contained in silver, button-down shirt sleeve shirt that bounded his armpits. Do. I, pay the covered you. Reaching for his wallet, No, you don't get to pay cover. You're not coming in. But with her Allen said gesturing in the direction. Mimi had gone. I'm Christian, isn't her neighbor? She didn't mention it. The bouncer said he was smirking. Now Look Allen, said I haven't been to a club and twenty years. Do you guys still take bribes? The bouncer rolled his eyes. Some might I. Don't want you head home sir. That's it Allen said nothing I can say or do. Don't be a smart guy. The bouncer said good night then Allen said and turned on his heel. He walked back up to Queen Street which was ablaze with TV lights from the open studio out front of the Chum City building hordes of teenagers and tiny outrageous outfits mill forth from the coffee shops to the studio window where some band he'd never heard of was performing, generally ambling southward toward the clubs. Alum bottom self, a coffee with a sixteen syllable Latin at trade name, MOCHA, Lot American Express Achino. He liked to call them at the Second Cup and hail the taxi. He felt only the shortest moment of anger at Mimi, but quickly cooled, and then warmed again replaced by bemusement. Decrypt the mystical deeds of young people had been his hobby and avocation, since he hired his first cranky, but bright sixteen year old Mimi had played him, he knew that deliberately set him up to be humiliated, but she also wanted a moment alone with him an opportunity to confront him with her wings wings, that we're taking on an era of the erotic now in his imagination much to his Chagrin, he imagined that they were soft and pliable as lips, but with spongy cartilage beneath that gave way like nipple flush. The hair must be soft, silky and Slippery as Pubic Thatch oiled with sweat and juices terro dare he was really getting himself worked up into a lather, imagining the wings, drooping to the ground, unfolding powerfully in his living room, and circling him, enveloping him, as his lips enveloped the tendons on her neck as her vagina enveloped him. The, taxi drove right past place, and that gave Alan. A much-needed distraction directing the Cabbie through the maze of Kensington markets, one way streets back around to his front door. He took the Cabbie a couple of bucks over his customary ten percent, and bummed a cigarette off him, realizing that he had asked him for a but but had never returned the pack. He often shut his head and stared up the street at the distant lights of college, Street, and then turn back to his porch, Hello Albert to voices set in unison, speaking from the shadows on his. Porch Jesus, he said, and hit the remote on his key ring that switched on the porch light. It was his brother Edward, the eldest of the nesting dolls, the bark of their trinity course and toughen hollow. He was even fatter than he'd been. As a little boy found enough that his arms and legs appeared vestigial and anointed, he struggled panting to his tiny feet feet, like undersized exclamation points beneath the tapered. Oh, of his body, his face, though doughy had not gone to undefined softness, rather every feature had acquired its own rolls of fat roles that Ward with one another to define his appearance, nose, and cheekbones, and Brow and lips, all grotesque and inflated and blubbery Eugene Allen said it's been a very long time. Edward cocked his head. It has indeed big brother. I've got bad news what? Edward Lean to the left the top half of his body, tipping over completely splitting his narrow leather belt, so that his trunk neck and head hung upside down beside his short cylindrical legs and tiny feet. Inside of him was Frederick the perennial Middle Child. Frederick planted his palms on the dry, smooth edges of his older brothers. Waste unlevered himself up stepping out of legs with the unconscious ease of a lifetime's practice. It's good to see you, Andy. He said he was Pale and wars habitual Alex expression of surprise at seeing the world without looking through his older brothers is. It's nice to see you to Frederick Allen said he always gotten along with Frederick liked his ability to play peacemaker and to lend listening Ear Frederick Helped Edward Upright methodically circumnavigating his huge belly retouching has grimy white shirt. Then he hitched up his sweatshirt over the Harry Pale expanse of his own belly and tip to one side. Allen had been expecting to see gregory the core, but instead there was nothing inside Frederick. The gregory shape void was empty. Frederick righted himself in hitched up his belt. We think he's dead. Edwards said his rubbery features distorted into a Greek tragedy mask. Think that Doug killed him. He pinwheel has round arms, and then he clapped his hands to his face sobbing. Frederick put a hand on his arm. He too was crying. Once upon a time, Allen's mother gave birth to three sons in three months. Birthing sons was extraordinarily before these three came along, she'd already had for others. But the interval well, that was unusual. As, the eldest was the first to recognize the early signs of her pregnancy. The laundry loads of diapers and play clothes. He fed into her belly, unbalanced more often, and her spin cycle became almost lackadaisical, so the garments had to hang on the line for days before they stiffened and dried completely. I don't like to sit with his back against his mother's hard enamel side while she rocked and gargled and churned. It comforted him. The details of our conception were always mysterious to Allen He'd been walking down into town to attend day school for five years, and he learned all about the birds and bees, and he thought that maybe his father the mountain impregnated his mother by means of some strange pollen, carried on the gusts of winds from his deep and gloomy caves. There was a gnome to who made sure that the long hose that led from Allen's mothers back to the Spring Pool. His father's belly remained clear and UNFILED, and sometimes Alan wondered if the GNOME dove for his father seed and fed up to his mother's intake. Allen's life was full of mysteries, and he'd long since learned to keep his mouth shut about his home life when he was at school. He attended all three berths along with the smaller kids, Bill and Donald Charlie. The island was still small enough to float in the middle, their father's heart pool, waiting on tenterhooks for his mother's painful off-balance spin cycle to spend itself before reverently opening the round glass door and removing the infant within. Edward was fat even for a baby. He looked like an elongated soccer ball with a smaller ball on top. He cried healthily though and gave hardy suck to their mothers. Exhaust Valve wants. Allen had cleaned the soap suds and fabric softener residue from his little body. His father gusted proud, warm, blustery winds over them and their little domestic scene. Allen notice that Little Edward for all his girth was very light and wondered if the baby was full of helium or some other areas, substance certainly hardly appeared to be full of baby since everything he ate, and drank pass through him in a matter of seconds hardly digested at all. Allen had to go to town twice to buy new twelve pound boxes of clean white shop rags to clean up the slime trail. The baby left behind him, drew at three seemed to take perverse delight in the scummy water, spreading it around the cave as much as possible. The Grove in front of the cave mouth was booby, trapped with clotheslines upon clotheslines, all hung with diapers and rags drying out in the early spring sunlight. Thirty days later, Alan came home from school to find the younger kids surrounding his mother, as she rocked from side to side, actually popping free of the GROOVES, her small metal feet had worn in the cave floor over the years. To babies thirty. Such a thing was unheard of in their father's cave. Edward normally a sweet tempered baby, how long screams that resonated through Allen's milk teeth, and made his testicles shrivel up into hard stones. New his mother liked to be left alone when she was in labor, but he couldn't just stand there and watch her. Shake and shiver. He went to her impressed. His palms to her top tried to soothe and restrain her bill, the second eldest, and still only four years old followed suit. Edwards screams grew even louder, loud and horse, an utterly terrified, echoing off their fathers walls, and back to them soon allen was sobbing to biting his lip to keep the sounds inside, and so are the other children. Dylan wrinkled his brow, and screamed high, pitched wail, that could have cut glass. Allen's mother rocked harder, and her exhaust hose dislodged itself a high pressure jet of cold, soapy water, spurted from her back parts, painting the cave walls with Suds Edward crawled into the puddle at formed in Scoop, small handful of the liquid into his mouth between howls. And then it stopped. His mother stopped. Rocking stopped shaking. The stream trailed off to a trickle Allen. Stop crying and soon the smaller kids followed suit even Edward the echoes continued firm, and then the to stopped the silence was a startling, and nearly as unbearable as the cacophony had been. With a trembling hand Alan opened his mother's door and extracted little Frederick. The baby was small and Sciatic Blue Alan tip the baby over and shook him gently, and the baby vomited up a fantastic quantity of wash water, a prodigious stream that soak the front of Allen's school trousers, and has Warren Brown loafers? Finally it ended and the baby. Let out a healthy owl. Allen's shifted the infant to one arm, and gingerly reconnected the exhaust hose and set the baby down alongside of its end. The baby wouldn't suck though. Across the cave from his soggy seat in the puddle of waste Edward watched new baby with curious is he crawled across the floor and nuzzle his brother with his high forehead. Frederick squirmed in Boston Edwards shoved him to one side and sucked his little diaper drip as the liquid passed directly through him. Allen patiently picked dripping Edward, up and put him over one shoulder, and gave Frederick the to to Suck Frederick Gummed at the hose, and then Fuss Samora whimpering Edwards scrummed in his arms, nearly plummeting to the hard stone floor. Billy Allen said to the solemn little boy who nodded. Can you take care of Edward for a little while I? NEED TO CLEAN UP? Billy nodded again and held out his pudgy arms, Alan grabs some clean shop, rags, and briskly wipe Frederick down than late another across billy shoulder and set Edward Down the baby promptly set to snoring Danny started screaming again with no provocation and Allen took to swift steps to bridge the distance between the men's. Smack the child hard enough to stun him silent. Alan grabbed a mop and bucket, and sloshed the puddles into the drainage groove, where his mother's wastewater usually ran out the cave mouth, and into a standard choking mountain grass that Fed greedily and thrived riotous in the phosphates from the detergent. Frederick did not eat for thirty days. And during that time he grew so thin that he appeared to shrivel a raisin, going hard, and folded in upon himself, Allan spent hours patiently, spooning suds water into his little pink mountain, but the baby wouldn't swallow, just spat it out, and whimpered, fussed Edward like to twine around Allen's feet like a cat, as he juggled and spooned fretted over Frederick, it was all allen could do not to go completely mad, but he held it together. That was great slipped. His mother vibrated nervously, and his father's wins grew so unruly that two of the Golan's came around the cave to make their slow peevish complaints Allen shoved a baby into each of their arms, and seriously lost his ship on them, screaming himself horse at them, while hanging more diapers, more rags more close on the line, tossing his unfinished homework in their faces. Thirty, th day his mother went into Labor again a labor, so frenzy dislodged stalactites and send it crashing, chuntering to the cave floor in a fractious shivering of flinders. Allen took a chip in the neck, and it opened up a small cut that nevertheless blood copiously and ruined, ruined his favorite t shirt with snoopy, sitting atop his Doghouse, an aviator's helmet firing an imaginary machine gun at the curse red. Baron, that was nearly the final Straw for Allen, but he held fast, and waited for the Labor to pass, and finally unlatch the door and extracted little George up peanut of a child. A Lima bean infant curled and feel and yearly quiet. He set the little half baby down by the exhaust hose where he put shriveled Frederick in a hopeless hope that the baby would suck would ingest finally. And Ingest Frederick did his dry and desiccated jaw swung open like a snake's unhinged and spread wide, he swallowed little George eight him up in three convulsive swallows, the new baby, making fredericks belly swell like a balloon Alan swallow panic seized Frederick by the heels and shook him upside down, spit them out. Allen cried spat him free, but Frederick kept his lips stubbornly together, and Allen Tired of the terrible business, and set the boy with the newest brother within down on a pile of Hay. He'd brought in to soak up some of Edwards continuous excretion. Alan put his hands over his face and sobbed because he'd failed his responsibility as the eldest of their family, and there was no one could tell his woes to. The sound of baby giggles stopped his crying. Edward had belly crawled to Frederick side, and he was eating him jaw, unhinged and gorge working he was up to Frederick's little bottom, dehydrated to a leathery baby Jerky, and then he was passed swallowing the arms, and the Chin and head the giggling, smiling head, the laughing head that had done nothing, but wine and fuss since Allen cleaned it of its volume of detergent. He water fresh from their mother's belly. And, then Frederick was gone horrified, Allen rushed over and picked up Edward now heavy as a cannonball and pride, his mouth open, staring down his gullet, staring down into another mouth fredericks mouth, which gaped open, revealing a third mouth, Georgia's the smallest mouth twisted and opened then shut. Edwards squirmed fiercely Allen Nearly fumbled him. He set the boy down in the straw and watched him crawl across to their mother where he sucked hungrily automatically. Gathered up an armload of rags and made ready to wipe up the stream that Allen would soon be ejecting. But no stream came the baby fed and fed, and lettered a deep burp. Three part harmony spat up a little and drank some more somehow Frederick George were in their feeding to. Allen waited patiently for Edward to finish feeding than put him over shoulder. Jog Him until he burned up, then vetted him down in his little rough, Hewn Crib, the crib that the Golan's had car for Allen when he was born, cleaned the cave and cried again leaned up against their mother. So you know what I thought I was going to read until we got to Kurt I forgot how much stuff there was with that triumvirate in there, so I'm GonNa. Talk very briefly about the triumvirate where they come from and I think we'll get to Kurt next week, so my grandfather's name was from Dr Rovic he was born in a town, called Novi shares knee, which was in Poland I thought that it would had been part of Belarus, but my dad says No. I was sure my grandfather had said that. He would know better than on anyway. He was a middle child in a group of ten siblings two to mothers I'm his father's first wife been kicked to death by a cow and. His brothers SORTA scattered all over the world before during and after the war, the eldest left during the depression, pulling in the twenty s, and then the middle cohort and I guess some of the younger ones long some of their cousins when they heard that the Nazis invaded Poland. They got on their bikes to ride to Kiev to Ukraine where they figured they'd be safe. This is a very bonkers plan for a bunch of teenagers to have taken on M. I grandfather learned watchmaking from a cousin on the road and got a set of tool somehow. And? They all got picked up inducted into the Red Army. My my grandfather became a soldier, not a very good one apparently, but he did curry a lot of favor by fixing watches, and there was some kind of scandal where he deserted, and also stole a bunch of officers watches, and took my grandmother, who was a young woman, whom he had impregnated, who had been a civil defense worker kind of child soldier during. During the siege of Leningrad are really a child civil defense worker during the siege who'd been evacuated to Siberia after nearly three years, and who I think was only fifteen at the time, and so he and she got a train, and she has this crazy story about people grabbing my grandfather's arms as she hallum onto the train, and they went to other by John Very far from the grasp of the Red Army My. My, Dad was born there, and then they made their way back across the former Soviet Union, they were separated for time. My grandfather or rather my grandmother made it to Poland where she briefly married my grandfather's brother, who was a partisan fighter who had lost an arm fighting in the hills during the war during the occupation, and who'd been given a kind of veterans sinecure as the caretaker of an apartment building and my grandmother. Grandmother married him so that she could get admission to Poland with my father and there they were in a pogroms, so an anti Semitic mob burned down the building. My grandfather's brother was taking care of because Jews were in it, and they somehow escaped, and somehow rendezvous with my grandfather made it to Canada by way of Hamburg where my aunt was born in a displaced persons camp, take on a displaced person boat ship. To Halifax and then made to Toronto where one of my great uncles, my grandfather half brother, I think the eldest uncle Max was a furrier very successful furrier I guess he'd come earlier part of that depression exodus from from Poland and. They somehow stay with them for a while, and then got a place in Kensington market where this book is set. My grandfather was a difficult man to be married to his mental health issues. He was depressed. He had substance abuse issues. He was traumatized by the war, and my grandmother divorced him and married one of his friends. Another Polish refugee whose family had all been murdered, he was the sole survivor except for I. Think one cousin. Most of the family was murdered when their neighbors of many years turn them in for the bounty that you got for turning in hidden Jews to the Nazis, and so she married him, and had two more daughters, so that was foreign total, and lived with him for the rest of their days until he died of cancer is eighty Sasha, my grandfather, whose real? Real name was Sasha, but who is called Seymour when he came to Canada for reasons, the anglicized ation of Sasha's Alexander, but for some reason they call them Seymour and so my grandfather lived alone in a little apartment he had clinical depression and alcoholism is whole life, but still managed to kind of carve out a life with these kinda drunken poker, buddies and When I was a teenager, we started to meet some of his other brothers in particular this barrel, the one armed partisan veteran who came from Poland for visit, and my grandfather is very distinctive, looking fellow, basically look like one of these triumvirate. He was A. Roly poly Fatman with watery eyes. Who is very short, he'd he'd had nutrition problems as a as a child growing up in a very poor farmers of kids, and so he'd had some developmental issues, so it was really short, basically barely cleared the steering wheel you when he drove. You adjust, see like these sort of watery. Alcoholic is a Yarmulke. Peering out from behind the steering wheel and barrel has brother looked exactly like him, but like a one size smaller they really did look like Matryoshkas like Russian nesting dolls, and that's where the origin of this comes, and so yeah. My Grandfather Avram when he came to Canada went to work for. Someone who knew someone from the old country who had a watching jewelry shop and he went to work as a watchmaker there and when he got there on his first day, they said what's your name? And he said my name is of which you know Anglo Sizes to Abraham but his boss said off Avram Abraham they're Jewish names, their old country names. You need a Canadian name I'll call you bill and so his certificate of Citizenship Read William Abraham Doctor. Doctor Oh doctor, oh being the way that they anglicized doctor, of which and so yeah, it's very funny. You know all of my family. All I had three grandfather's my father's biological father, his stepfather and my mother's biological father, and they all had multiple names right. They had a birth name that Hebrew name. They had a Yiddish name, and in the case of the two who came from Poland. The also had anglicised names so this idea of having all. All of these characters who have all these different names, and the names of immutable, really came from that immigrant experience of names, being extremely variable, and this is the thing that really came to me a lot during the nimh wars back when Google plus was insisting that people use their real names and so-called real names, and there was this big fight about what a real name was, and who had them and what it meant to exclude people from the. The. Internet, if they couldn't tell you what their real name was, and if they're real name, didn't match what was on their ID or didn't match what some programmer thought. A real name should consist of and that fluidity of names I think is something that we lose sight of, but that has been very critical again. Especially is people go through gender transitions and have new names or encounter other circumstances that caused them to have more than one name. So anyway, that's this week's reading. Maybe I'll see you at the star. Wars event tomorrow, if I don't please hang in there I. Remember to wash your hands. Take care of yourself shelter in place if you can, and if you're not sheltering place, and you're out there working I am both heartily thankful to you and heartily sorry that you are almost certainly not being paid what you're worth, and not being recognized for the work that you're doing and so allow me to take a small moment to recognize your work, but also to recognize the injustice of the work that you're doing in the way that you're being compensated for it. All right, then talk to you later. You've been listening to the Corey Dr. a podcast licensed under creative Commons attribution noncommercial share like us three point, zero or woody Guthrie. PUT IT in another context. This song is copyrighted in the US under seal of copyright, one, five, four, zero, eight, five for a period of twenty years, and anyone caused singing it without our permission. We'll be a mighty good friend of ARN because we don't give a darn. Publish it right. Singers swing to a Yoda. We wrote about all we wanted to do. Many thanks John Taylor Williams for mastering. That's Ri- Studio W. R. Y. N. E. C. K. Studio at gmail.com. John Taylor Williams's a fulltime self-employed audio, engineer, composer and sound designer and his free time. He makes beer, jewelry, odd musical instruments and furniture. He likes to meditate to read and to Cook Tucker. Next week.

Frederick Allen Frederick Alan Edward Canada Kurt Kurt Boston Edwards Poland Mimi Frederick UK Labor Toronto Kensington Berlin Republica Conference engineer John Taylor Williams Edward Snowden McMillan
Buried Treasure: "Snowden and the Journalist"

Skullduggery

50:46 min | 2 months ago

Buried Treasure: "Snowden and the Journalist"

"A Michael ISIKOFF chief investigative correspondent for Yahoo News. And I'm Dan Kleinman editor in chief of Yahoo News and a quick reminder that you can follow us at skulduggery pod and by the way. If you've got any questions thoughts ideas you wanNA share tweet right out us now. Let's get on with the show. They were stories that jolted the US intelligence community and created an international uproar. Nsa contractor had stolen a huge cache of highly classified documents revealing details about the reach of the agency's surveillance the NSA was scooping up the records of phone calls made by millions of American citizens and secretly intercepting emails and other communications by tapping into the servers of big us. Internet companies. Like Google and Yahoo. The contractor of course was Edward Snowden. Who Ever since? Those stories broke in two thousand. Thirteen has been a fugitive from. Us Justice living in exile in Moscow courtesy of Vladimir Putin's government. Now one of the original reporters who got that Document Dump Bart. Gilman has written a new book dark mirror. Edward Snowden and the American surveillance state that recounts the behind the scenes story of his own extensive dealings with the self styled with blower. We'll talk Gilman and get his take on the still reverberating. Impact of snowden disclosures on this episode of skulduggery is buried treasure. Because people have gotta know whether or not their president's. I'm not a crop. I told the American people. I did not trade arms for hospital my heart to my best intentions still tell me. That's true but the facts and the evidence. Tell me it is not. I did not have sexual relations with that one. There will be no allies. We will honor the American people with the Truth and nothing else. We now have with us. Our old colleague from the Washington Post Bart Galman Art. Welcome to the podcast Ivan. Listening since the starts. I'm really glad to be well. We've been reading you for many many years and congrats on the book and I just wanted to sort of start out there so much to talk about here about snowden about the impact of his disclosures about how they look today versus how we looked at them at the time but just sort of set the scene tell us how you first learned about the existence of the snowden documents and how you came to obtain them so snowden went to the filmmaker Laura Poitras and he was attracted to her because she had done civil liberties minded films before and she was also the subject of searches every time she crossed the US border they would copy her film immature computer holder for secondary detention. So he said She's a victim of the surveillance state and and she and he picked her. She came to me very quickly. Because I'd written a book about Dick. Cheney that covered surveillance she wanted some advice. Did I think this guy was for real? All we knew that it was someone who called himself for truth teller that he claimed to be from the intelligence community and that he had a scandal that would rock the world. That's not normally something that will induce a lot of confidence in me. You guys have both been in this business long enough to know. How many spooky conspiracy as you get in in your inbox. But he gradually over time convinced us that he was career. And you publish your first story in June of two thousand thirteen after the Guardian first published. And at that point you still have not net snowden in person you've communicated with him through all sorts of surreptitious means but you fly to Moscow in December two thousand thirteen and you meet him for the first time and I just love the account of your encounter with him in which a paranoia seems to be raining supreme on his part and your part. Tell us a little bit about that. I encounter starting off with when you have the discussion about milkshakes. Well just what I got there. He called my hotel phone and said what time does your watch say exactly and I told him and he said at exactly four PM will meet in the lobby of the hotel. Which is God Gaudy Casino Hotel and will be by the player piano so I said Okay and the guy comes up to me. And he's in light disguise because he did not want to be of followed around by reporters. I think he didn't fool himself. He could evade government scrutiny but he looked a little different than usual carrying a backpack with the Zipper flap open so that he could reach back into it and jeff the CD that was running if anybody came up to him and brought me up to a room kept the curtains closed. Never emerged for seven hours the first day and I asked him personal questions. He didn't want to answer you. Wanted a story about the disclosures. Not About him so some of it was just by disposition but he also was quite He had a huge focus on operational security so for example when he went to the bathroom. He carried his laptop with him. He didn't trust the laptop in my hands unobserved for two minutes Ed so we carried it with them but I kind of laughed at and he said well it may seem excessive. But you realize it's not that hard if it could making more secure than than you do it. I I asked him what he missed about America and he said not much really. He's easy to please. He doesn't have many demands. Although when I pressed him he finally said well you know. I miss milkshakes milkshakes. That's why don't you just get a blender. And he refused to confirm or deny possession of a blender because if American spy agency's new whether had a blender they could look for apartments that had that electrical signature which he said. It's not that common in Moscow and help pinpoint his location that way now. I thought that was going pretty far. He wasn't wrong though about the capability. So Bart at this point you are already on a kind of descent into what people from the outside would look at paranoia and I want to point to the you know kind of the high point of that or the low points however you see it. Which is this extraordinary. Moment when you're with your partner and seven year old boy outside of Disneyworld at Disneyworld Gates and you balk there because they want to scan your fingerprints and get you to wear a radio tagged wristband so tell us about how you got to that point where you were questioning whether you could even go take your son to Disneyworld. I freely confess that I lost all sense of balance from this now in fairness it's dot paranoid so what is actually out to get you and you know I mean. I had lots of reasons to think that but I nothing felt safe to me and I spent all my time thinking about attack surfaces As they say the trade what what vulnerabilities I was leaving and then to where our F tag wristband everywhere I went and have that have readers pointing at me and Giving somebody my fingerprint. I wouldn't have liked especially handing out my fingerprint some Private Corporation just for privacy. Anyway it's like my my kids summer camp one year said. Can you send us? Scans if your child's face so we can used facial recognition software to identify him in all the pictures we take care of and I said No. Thanks so I'm disposed that way anyway. And there was just that one moment where they fingerprint. Please and I stop for a second and I met deafness is and she just about dared me to say no and of course who wouldn't cave in with a seven year waiting eagerly to walk into Disneyworld. So I'm so you do have a breaking point. We now know it's my. It's my mickey mouse my vulnerability right but you discover in the course of Writing this book that you were targeted by the US government in some pretty extensive ways. Tell us about that. I was targeted both by the US government and by foreign governments and probably by run-of-the-mill hackers who thought it would be fun or interesting to see the snowden documents uncensored think about it. I had put a giant target by back. I announced to the world in my stories and in interviews about my stories that I had a giant pile of a highly sensitive documents from the NSA. That I was not intending to make them publicly available on mass that I was going to write stories about them from time to time as I thought they were newsworthy and not to damaging and so I'm saying I have this great big pile of goodies. Come and get it honestly. There was no choice but to say so. I thought to be honest and fell the news that I knew it made me a target so I found out later through sources and to some extent through freedom of information requests that the government was. I don't know whether I was a target or subject up surveillance it could have been simply in the course of investigations into Snowden but they said investigations -plore of so it wasn't just snowden. It was probably other stories. I had done national security reporter over the years. I found my own name. In the documents that Snowden had given me documents that long predated my connection note As the author of several stories that were considered breaches of secrecy of high level. Concern to policymakers And that launched. Fbi investigations the FBI refused to turn over certain documents and court because it said that disclosing even the names of the documents that included the word. Gilman in them would reveal the existence of special surveillance methods. Were not public so I was. Apparently the beneficiary of special surveillance methods that were not public Which was not reassuring. I and then I I knew from an official warning from Google and from a forensic exam of my devices that there were foreign intelligence services. Trying to get into my work my IPAD rebooted itself and into a UNIX terminal and started dumping the operating system and loading a new colonel in front of my eyes one day which if it had happened not in front of my eyes. Would've me with an IPAD. Looks normal but would no longer be working for me. That's the tip of the iceberg. Tell the story about your colleague who shared bylines with who believed that he was potentially the target of a honey trap. I thought that was one of the more astonishing stories about that period. When you and and your colleague were under surveillance I guess you didn't prove it in that case but tell that story right it's just unsettled and suggestive. You read about honey traps spy novels or in accounts of old operations the use of sexual lures to gather intelligence so my friend. Ashkelon African Sultani whose security and privacy expert. Who was working with me on. The documents is a single guy. And he's on. Okay cupid to find a match. Okay keep it is not a hookup site. It's not a swipe right. Let's go meet and get in bed Kinda site. It's it's for serious daters and he'd been on it for years and for the first time in his life and then the second time and then the third time all in a compressed period of time very attractive young women were messaging him and proposing they get together which first of all is not usually the way it works on. Okay keep it. It's usually the Ben asking the women at second said were really really hot and women and they immediately started suggesting that they would be happy to wind up in bed with him. Well one of them said on the day they were supposed to meet It's Cloudy outside Bad weather it makes me WANNA cuddle. Come over to your place and he said this has gotta be. I mean I'm not a bad looking guy I do okay but I'm not usually the guy that people say. They want to come with before they even met me now on the question of the US government targeting. You which is something I think. All journalists would be concerned about reveal. Something called first fruits which I gather is some sort of program that targets journalists who are suspected of getting unauthorized leaks from the government and one detail in particular that left out at me. Is you found discovered. Guess through foia a document that included a seventy six page homeland security report on every international. Flight you'd taken since one thousand nine hundred eighty three. That astounded me tells about first fruits and tells about that document so I had actually heard the term first fruits long before I met Snowden and Lo long before I saw these documents it was the subject of kind of feverish speculation in the kind of crazy conspiracy Internet it was described as a program that targeted journalists and also political officials for assassination for example which it turns out that is not what it was but I thought I was just made up nonsense because of the way it was treated but there really was classified compartment under top secret seal The NSA for program called first roots which was to track and discourage and defend against leaks to journalists as being what they call cryptologic insecurities which means that you gotTa create you. Create the risk that an intelligence gathering method by the. Nsa will no longer work. And I learned from that that the director of the NSA had sent a memo to the attorney. General John Ashcroft back in nineteen ninety nine saying please investigate Gilman for these three stories that he's done We they're serious or severe leaks of intelligence methods And we we would like a criminal investigation bar just to ask a question too quickly here. Yeah they said investigate. Gilman not investigate galman sources I'm I'm being. I'm being figurative here. It it said this. Here's here's a list of leaks of high level concern for which we would like to make criminal referral and in fact that isn't investigation of the sources but it also entails because it uses counterintelligence powers entails the possibility that they're going to use can at national security letters and other intelligence methods to try to determine my sources right. You can't investigate the source without investigate. The journalists the question is the source would have been the target of the investigation. Not The journalist. Well that's right up and up until very recently. We can talk about this if you want the. Us government has never tried to charge a journalist with espionage for publishing classified fact and at that time that was not a prosecutorial direction that they were likely to take so. Yeah they were. They were investigating my sources. Which has the effect of deterring of course in the snowden matter they knew who your source was already it was snowden. They didn't have to find out who your source was right. But they were using I'm sure a significant amount of surveillance resources to try to figure out when we talked how we talked. What we said didn't publish. What else I had that I had published and so on but also I mean on this very point and you a good job in this book of going back to the people who were looking to investigate enforce the laws prosecute people who are leaking and one of them is James Clapper. Who was the head of the deny that he was the director of National Intelligence when the stolen documents leaked and he told you that he believed you? You were a valid target of counterintelligence and potentially law enforcement. That was a disturbing conversation because it was in many ways a very friendly conversation. One of the things I do in dark mirror is I set the scene Ash and I described the moments in which I track down senior members of the national security establishment. And talk them through what happened and sometimes they say surprising and interesting things and sometimes they stand by the stories they told in the past clapper had really disturbed me during the SNOWDEN public debate. He described me and the other journalist as accomplices to Snowden so one was charged with espionage to be an accomplice to espionage is a legal term which exposes you to significant criminal penalties in. That was not an off the cuff remark. It was in his prepared testimony. That had been vetted around the administration and then shortly after that the following month the Inspector General of the NSA called me an agent of Snowden. This was not normal talk about journalists doing a story and it worried me about what the consequences were and I later found out that the NSA Director Keith. Alexander was advocating internally that the US government stage rates on the journalists and sees our documents and our notes to prevent us from making further disclosures. Let's talk big picture here. Snowden remains a polarizing figure for many He has portrayed himself as a whistle blower trying to shed light on intrusive surveillance practices of the United States government but he lives a fugitive from justice. At the sufferance of Vladimir Putin in one of the most authoritarian countries in the world. You write in the book. You acknowledge something that Snowden does not that. Some of his disclosures may well have harmed legitimate national security interest the United States but you conclude that his disclosures did significantly more good than harm. Tell us how you reach that conclusion. So there's obviously two sides of that there there's a fundamental tension between self government and self defense. If you do everything for security that might incline you to keep everything secret in fact if you read the espionage act it bans discussion of anything. That's called national defense information whether or not it's classified Meaning the army has eight. Active divisions than a division consists of several brigades it. So that's national defense information. If you if you wanted perfect security you might. Although I think you'd be wrong you might be inclined to perfect secrecy. If you want perfect democracy then you want to know everything you want to be able to judge for yourself. What the government is doing so these? These are intention. What good did he do? He enabled us to have a public debate would not have happened. Otherwise about what? The boundaries of intelligence in a free society are supposed to be. He told us that we were being surveilled. By our own government in ways the government did not admit and sometimes actively denied and it caused people to change their behavior at cost people to change their behavior in a way that the model suggest is the right bottle. The way we're supposed to if you if you see something you don't like as a citizen you can put pressure on your representatives Or members of Congress can change can change the law if you see something you don't like as a consumer you can demand more privacy from the big Internet companies and both those things happen so what was the harm. The there must have been harm to collection based on technical secrets being spilled so that people who would otherwise be caught unawares by some channel or another of surveillance stopped using it. That happens all the time anyway with or without leaks because facebook changes a protocol or Google shifts data centers. Were people naturally start using? This happens that of that APP productive Surveillance stops but I think the greatest damaged to intelligence gathering is the part you can't disqualify harm in a democratic society. Which is what I was saying before. People didn't like that. Google was cooperating. With the NSA. And they demanded more privacy and Google started encrypting its connections Congress told the NSA that some of what it was doing it was no longer allowed to do. These caused losses of collection. No doubt but that's a feature not a bug. One asked a little bit about the laws that are currently on the book to deal with the tension that you talked about. And they're not. They don't fit these scenarios particularly well. You point out. There is no law that's kind of squarely deals with. Criminal Law of squarely deals with unauthorized disclosures. So therefore the government has turned to the espionage act which is a pretty blunt instrument it really is about spying. It means that it suggests that reporters can be spies so talk about that a little bit and I wonder as you've been kind of grappling with this tension between secrecy and national security interests in journalism. What could the government do to resolve that tension in terms of how to enforce the law when things are leaked that they believe could be a real damage to our national security right so a couple of premises? That'll be familiar to your listeners. I think one is that you can't have news coverage of the intelligence or foreign policy or defense or many other things without talking about secrets. Almost everything you want to know as a reader of those stories about how's the war going or what our relations like with this country of that country or what might Iran do after the US. Government assassinates Top leaders all. That stuff is classified. And if we took the government's word for it about what should stay secret than we would never have had stories about About rendition in the war on terrorism or torture or unlawful domestic surveillance or abuse of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Those were all classified and they should not have been kept out of the public debate. Sometimes people classify things for bad reasons or because they can or because they're used to it so government has always been able to do more since we don't have an official secrets act. The legal rubric. Was that if you are in government or contractor and if you lawfully obtained classified information because you have a clearance and then you give that information to someone not authorized including reporter. Then you're a spy then. You can be charged with espionage. That's a kind of a grotesque distortion of the transaction. Aspide tries to give information that. Stay secret to a hostile government For the purpose of harming the United States. A source to someone like it's a cough or some climate is trying to bring things to the public sphere not to keep the the the league secret They're trying to achieve results in their own society. They're trying to enter the political arena and to tell citizens things that they think that citizens need to know. They're not trying to harm the United States government. So it's distorted to put this all through the lens of espionage and even more so if you want to say that the reporter is spy and that's the final step that the trump administration is trying to cross a few years ago. The House Intelligence Committee did something that seems inconceivable. From today's perspective it produced a bipartisan report about Snowden and his leaks in which they concluded he was quote a serial fabricator and exaggerate. Or and. Here's what Adam Schiff the ranking then the ranking Democrat on the committee set at the time quote Snowden and his defenders claim that he is a whistle blower. But he isn't most of the material he stole. Had nothing to do with Americans privacy and it's compromise has been of great value to America's adversaries in those who mean to do. America harm was wrong. I think that that whole report was deeply flawed and some of it really obvious. On a simple level they call him a serial fabricator and here are two examples of his fabrication. They said he called himself. A high level Assisted minister when he was actually just a high school dropout so they knew he had the top tier of system of Simeon clearance. They knew that he had CIA clearances. As well as clearances. They knew that he had gotten his. Ged and taken advanced networking and other kinds of courses. I mean he was that whatever else he is. He's not an uneducated dummy he's actually just by raw intelligence world. The smartest people I've ever met. They claim that he had washed out of the army and made up claims that he was injured. Well I mean I saw the medical report. He broke both legs. So I mean but on the on the bigger issue and I'm glad you brought it up. A lot of snowden critics say that most of what he revealed and most of what reporters wrote about had nothing to do with American privacy. It was all about overseas legitimate operations. And here's the problem with that and I spent most of my reporting time on these issues. Anything that you pick up overseas is no longer foreign intelligence. It used to be. You could assume that if you tapped into a cable in Geneva or in Singapore that you were getting farmers. But that's not the way the Internet operates anymore does not respect geographic boundaries at all if isikoff sends a note to Clyde men. It is quite possible that that is going to travel by way of bogue atop and even if it doesn't it's going to end up in a data center there because all the great big providers have a whole global infrastructure that balances the load on the Internet and that and that backs things up which is to say that everything in your g mail account is right now in multiple foreign countries and if the NSA as it does breaks into the Google cloud which is to say it was one of my biggest stories and one of the ones that I think is most significant that the NSA was tapping into the private fiber optic cables that link a Google data center in one country to another They don't travel over the regular Internet. It's it's thousands of miles of privately owned cable that Google uses to connect these things. If you tap into that you're going to get hundreds of millions of American accounts you're going to get an enormous amount of American data. And that's called under the law of Intelligence. That's called incidental collection but incidental doesn't mean accidental or unforeseen or unwanted. It just means that they know when they aim when when they grab a home pipeline. They do a high volume full take collection on one of the major pipelines of the. They know they're going to get a lot of Americans in there and all that they're not allowed to target you or me without a warrant. They're not allowed to target US for collection if they happen to use a giant net and scoop us in their free to use that information in some circumstances so basically the foreign thing it hugely effects American privacy. What they're doing overseas yeah. I'm curious part is something that is a cough and I were talking about before if you are a just an average American citizen. You're not a national security reporter like Bark L. Men are Mike Issakov. Who Do you have to fear most or more in terms of your privacy? The intelligence community or a social platform or technology company or other private American company that is going to collecting your data all the time and sharing your data I recognize. It's not a zero sum game. But you know most Americans. I'm sure do not walk around worrying about the government invading their privacy. But I think they do worry about the private companies doing that. So how do you think about that? So that's a really good question. I think first of all watch shoes. You can be worried about both for different reasons. The uses that private companies can put your data mostly involve selling you things but they can also be used to discriminate to gouge on pricing to deny you health insurance or life insurance or sell to political actors Cambridge Analytica so they can manipulate the American public right. But once you know the people who tell me that they've got nothing to hide from the government don't tend to be willing to give the keys to their email accounts like nobody actually has nothing to hide. Literally nobody I tell people even if you think you have no secrets. You're also you're the keeper of other people secrets. Somebody has told you that he hates his boss and it's going to quit his job. Somebody's told you that that that she's GonNa leave her husband. Somebody's told you that They have this fantastic new secret idea for a product. They're gonNA sell in the marketplace. You don't have the right to a an open book if you're also opening The lives of other people. I think fundamentally that the government is not. It's not the stars he it's not a police state. It's not motivated by evil but is collecting so much information it has so much potential power over citizens And it's so secretive about it. I mean that's why I called book. Dark Mirror at the image is of a police interrogation room where you can see through one side and stare at the people inside. But they can't see you looking at them at all so we are transparent. Were all interrogation room in this country. Even though we've done nothing wrong We're transparent to our government. A government is opaque to us and that creates distortions in the balance of power. I want to get back to Snowden for a moment because you defended him on some of the criticisms or attacks on him in that House Intelligence Committee report but there are other instances of comments. He's made statements he's made that have given some of US pause to wonder how reliable a narrator he is about what he did and why he did it and I want to give you some examples and have you talk about them. He said at one point that the breaking point for him to Disclose the NSA secrets was James. Clapper's false testimony to Congress that the NSA collecting data on individual Americans in fact snowden had been downloading the documents for more than a year before that and had contacted Laura Poitras reached out to her months before clapper's testimony. He has said he sent emails to up to ten. Nsa colleagues and superiors when he worked there raising concerns about US surveillance. None of those emails have ever surfaced. He apparently didn't keep any copies of these emails even though he stole hundreds of thousands if not millions of documents that seems strange to some of us but one that I think is perhaps the most important is. He has said repeatedly that he only gave the documents to responsible journalists who could vet them and only publish them if they would not do any damage to American national security but one of his first disclosures after to the Guardian. And you and you don't write about this in. The book is the disclosures in the south China Post while he was in Hong Kong in which he leaked material identifying. Nsa targets in China including universities hospitals Other institutions and a this had nothing to do with surveillance of Americans and be from today's perspective knowing everything we know about what the Chinese are up to and how they target us and even more how much we want to know what the Chinese hospital officials know right now about the spread of covid. That seems a pretty damaging disclosure to a foreign newspaper. That had nothing to do with protecting the privacy of Americans so as you guys know but maybe not all your listeners. No I am not a snowden advocate for representative spokesman. I'm not one hundred percent in his camp. I criticized him in the book On a number of counts I have no defense of the South China Morning Post story. I don't snowden view was that he was showing that even universities and hospitals that say not defense facilities or foreign ministers were target. I would not have published that story because I don't publish stories that warrant specific foreign targets legitimate foreign adversaries that they're being spied on the clapper thing. I called him on that myself His response is that say I knew. He had been downloading Without Authority he he'd been taking documents for some time before the clapper hearing that he's describing and I knew that he had been in contact with Laura Poitras and he said that was true but he still hadn't committed himself he hadn't given any document anyone That strikes me as weak. What was the third example? The third example is he has claimed that he sent emails. Raising concerns about Surveillance Practices might be mixing. That went up a little bit. He had he claimed that he had sent emails. To the general counsel about objections he had to one of the training modules. That seemed to him to suggest that the NSA saw presidential executive orders as superior to congressional legislation and it turned out that those were conversations. He had he didn't take them as far as he thought he did He's claimed that he talked to a number of colleagues in informal conversations and that they were also disturbed by some of the things. He was disturbed by that. I don't actually especially doubt I think that if you're the NSA and there's a giant means really truly enormous Investigation going on about who knew what when to admit that you had had conversations in which Snowden told you about his objections surveillance programs and you didn't have an volunteer that to anyone you know that would be understandable. I'm not sure that the NSA has a full record of everything the students said to somebody. Who's a workaholic? So far I mean you know snowden. You've thought a lot about him. You've written a lot about him. I guess I. I'm not asking you to put him on the couch. But how do you account for the these things that he's done? I mean does it come out of a some sort of zealotry on his part. Does he have blind spots. What what is it that would lead him to do. These things that seem inconsistent with how he has talked about the role. He's played in all of this. I love this question. Because it fascinates me why do people like Snowden and are there very many of them do what they do? Let's say I come to work for Yahoo News and I decide this. Guy Clyde meant he's a tyrant I don't like four. You don't give don't give anybody any ideas here bar okay. But I I'm with you keep going. I'm not saying I heard this directly from cough. I'm just saying you know. Sources close to sources sources close to I. I'm troubled by things I see going on the operation. I'm out of sympathy with all. Most people are going to go along. Get along because they need the job and they figure if everyone else is doing this you know. I guess I'm supposed to do it to some people would try not to do the things that they were bothered by. Some people would quit asked for a transfer. Hardly anybody says I'm going to bring this guy down. I'm GonNa Bring this whole operation to a halt. I'm going to go public. It's just a rare thing to do. IT requires a supreme confidence in your own sense of right and wrong which snowden does have an requires a sensibility. That that can't tolerate inaction so snowden does not actually think that he has superior understanding of morals and ethics. I think believes that everyone understands. What's right and wrong that everyone can see at the same way he does that. That people just don't want to look at it closely because it's inconvenient for them and for the same reason he feels like if no one else is acting. That doesn't mean I shouldn't act. That means I should. That means I have to stand up. One more beat on another issue of controversy. Which is how he came to end up in. Moscow was sort of official. Snowden version is He was on his way to Cuba and his passport got revoked and he got stuck in the Moscow airport very early on a Russian newspaper. Commerce reported something that. Us intelligence officials have since told me and others which is that actually he had gone to the Russian consulate in Hong Kong while he was there to arrange to fly to Moscow and although it didn't get a lot of attentions Putin himself seemed to confirm that in September two thousand and thirteen press conference. He said he said Snowden. I went to Hong Kong and got in touch with our diplomatic representatives. They reported to me that there was this service. Man wanted to come to Russia. From all the reporting you've done was he stuck in Moscow and is there by accident or did he intend to go there as US intelligence officials. Firmly believe I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one and it's a hard one because we can't sort of show our cards on the table here But I spent a lot of time and energy on the question of the questions that you're raising here and the question more generally of were snowden its relationship with the Russian government and there are a lot of people who seem senior enough that they could know who will tell you things that it turns out are actually just speculation or they're they've got second or third hand and I doubt that Russian consulate meeting ever happened. I know that the people who say that Snowden is cooperating because of course he would be cooperating. And you would have to be cooperating to be Putin's Russia. They're not the ones who have the hand information. The ones who first hand information told me that they have no direct evidence. That's not as cooperating ever cooperated or ever went to Moscow I've been privy to communications in which Julian assange and wikileaks. Urged SNOWDEN begged him to go to Russia. The so that's the only place you'll be safe and he said No. He did not want to do that. He was. He was flying to Moscow with an onward ticket. Which I've seen that would've taken him to Cuba and then to Ecuador. That was where he wanted to go. He did not want to be either in Russia or in Cuba. His passport was in fact revoked while he was there. It's possible that it was revoked. Just before he left Kong Hong Kong but the Hong Kong authorities said left be rid of him and decided to overlook it heading explain. Putin's comments though that which he said Snowden came to met with our diplomatic officials in Hong Kong. I can't explain that that you could. You could come with all kinds of hypothetical reasons about why he would you say that either in error or to Leave a false trail art to poke the Americans. I don't understand it but look I mean he. He doesn't get money from the Russians. He doesn't need money from the Russians I know how he supports himself He takes US example. I'm I'm going to visit him in in In Moscow in December of two thousand thirteen. The secrets are still fresh in time. They're still quite valuable. Contemporary I've published. Maybe one percent or less of the documents that I have I've left many secrets untold and Snowden says to me as we're preparing for the trip do not bring any documents with you It would not be safe to bring them now. Of course I was not going to bring them. If you're an agent working for Moscow or cooperating with the Russian government you would say. Let's talk through some more of these. I've got some great ideas for you. bring it along and we'll and we'll review them. I mean of course. He would want me to take them with me. There are lots of purely circumstantial But persuasive reasons to me to believe that he's that he he just didn't you didn't have that connection that he didn't ever Bart. What do you think's going to happen to Edward Snowden? We've got on election here either. Donald Trump is going to be elected or Joe Biden is going to be president. It doesn't seem likely that either of them would pardon snowden no indication that he would come back and face his accusers. So what happens? Yeah I don't know I mean my crystal ball Brokaw on this one Right now it seems to me that Putin has pretty good reasons to keep it. That is to say protecting snowden puts Putin in the position of being a great defender of international human rights defending the whistle blower Edward snowden against the persecution of his government. That's the way he. He casts it a role. He likes to play it as a nice. It's a nice little tweak to his his rival Snowden has also acknowledged to me. I thought it was very interesting that Putin has reason to protect him because although he is not in fact a Russian agent he might look that way to other people if an and Putin does not want to discourage walk INS by foreign intelligence officers of other countries. And if he if he sent snowden back that would make people worry Will I'm thinking of becoming a spy for Russia and defecting and coming over there Would make people worry about doing that? Because look what happened to Snowden says known says even though I'm not a spy he is treating me as though I were so that he doesn't blow chances with somebody else but fundamentally look he could come back at any time He is facing indictment he's fugitive from. Us Justice his claim is that the American justice system Would not give him a fair. Trial would not let him put on his public interest. Defense that he liked to put on. How do you feel about his arguments on this score? Whether he should be the should be above the reach of American law enforcement so he's got to arguments one is that international law calls for every country to respect any countries grant political asylum that his prosecution here would fall under a political prosecution At once once Russia makes him in a than that is armor against criminal charges in another country. That's his argument. His argument that he wouldn't get a fair trial as a subjective one but the facts that he adduces are correct that is to say the only element of the crime of espionage are the only two elements are that he had authorized access to classified information and that he gave it to someone. Who wasn't who didn't have that. He's not allowed to put on a public interest fence. He's even if literally every single program that Snowden disclosed had subsequently been declared and a gross breach of American law. Even if every thing he is was illegal he would still be guilty of espionage under the terms of the statute right now of the espionage. Act IT would not be guilty of espionage per se. He's not being charged with being a spy. We've been charged with espionage espionage. Act those laws on the books. What he's saying is those laws are unfair right. He's saying that if if if he were allowed to come back and say yes. This is what I did. I believe it to be in the public interest for the following reason and that it raised legitimate legal issues and political issues and let a jury decide that that doesn't happen to be with the law is. He doesn't get that choice. Nobody does who's charged with that. We can decide for yourself what you think of the espionage law as it's currently written and interpreted but it's look it's asking a lot for a guy to come back and put his head on the block but I'm not saying he's right legally under American law he's clearly a fugitive from justice and if he came back would open shot convicted. How long is his asylum? Good for I don't think he's yet got permanent asylum. But I'm not up to date on that. Yeah I think it's been reported up the asylum. Grant is up to this year which raises the question. I mean I assume like you do that. It'll be renewed and the Russians have no interest in sending him back. Although I was Kinda surprised I think a lot of people thought? When trump came in that snowden would be a good gift for the new president that Putin could provide Get he hasn't done something right. Well maybe trump really just doesn't care for one thing has called for the death penalty for Snowden but he could just as easily give him a medal the next week he doesn't need a precedent means nothing to this president. Consistency is not one of hallmarks. I just don't think he gives it. Frankly right it may be that the resolution here which depending on what plays out could be bad for Snowden or could be good for Snowden is whether the politics something changes in Russia that makes snowden expendable to Putin or or the politics change here and you have a say a Bernie Sanders like president who would pardon him. Getting pardon is GonNa be a very very big lift for any president The the intelligence community The National Security Community Loath Snowden and have long memories for this sort of thing And I think he'll be parked in his lifetime. Bart what are you Now that you finally finished this long-awaited book which a lot of us have been waiting for. What are you doing now? Well I have recently become staff writer at the Atlantic which I think is really good fit for me. It's it's filled with fantastic enterprise. They have resources still. They are hungry for deep reporting and deep dives into tough subjects and They don't think twice if you have the right subject and the right Angle on it To allow you to take even months if that's what it takes to get the story so I'm going to find something to dive into deeply and I'll probably do pieces from time to time Sorta turn pieces on the website. But I just think they're firing all cylinders over there and I'm happy to join. Well we were happy to have you here. The book is Dark Mirror. It's a great read and thanks for joining us. It's been a pleasure and I will say that having competed against you all the way. Back to DC Superior Court in the nineteen eighties. You're coming back to a great magazine like the the Atlantic and getting to do the kind of journalism you've always done is good for journalism good for the republic. Even have to pay you to say that. Thank you congratulations on the book. Great talking to you care take care. Bye-bye thanks to author and investigative reporter Bar Gilman for joining us on this episode of buried treasure. Don't forget to subscribe to skulduggery on Apple podcasts. Wherever you listen to your podcast and tell us what you think. Libra reviewed be sure to follow us on social media at skulduggery pot. We'll talk to you soon.

Edward Snowden government US NSA Vladimir Putin Google Moscow Bar Gilman cough reporter Hong Kong Russia Bart president SNOWDEN Yahoo Congress official Laura Poitras America