2 Episode results for "Edward Jake Wagner"
Episode 7- 4,000 Miles Away
"In the land of diamonds mervyn king maker queen with a gorgeous nervous diamond before you go down on one knee visit diamond importers with a huge selection of high quality diamonds at fair prices. Movers diamond is washington's. First choice at murders you'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy diamonds. Make a statement. They say you know value. Nine out of ten brides choose moves. Tenth is still speechless. Check reviews at diamonds dot com again. That's moves diamonds. dot com. Lost hills is a new podcast about a mystery. And i- billick malibu california when a man goes camping with his two young daughters and doesn't make it home alive after his death the cops follow a crumb trail of clues and arrest survivalist. They find camping in the woods. That's when things get complicated. Law tells is a shocking story that uncovers the dark truth about law enforcement in malibu california. Listen to lost tells on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts brought to you by discover- discover something brighter. Welcome to the pike and massacre a production of radio katy studios episode seven. Four thousand miles. Away i'm courtney armstrong television producer at katy studios with stephanie decker and jeff. Shane after own family was brutally cut down in their homes. Authorities embarked on what would become the largest homicide investigation in ohio's history. Over the course of the cases first year law enforcement officers began compiling a staggering amount of clues that they hoped would lead to the killers. Ohio attorney general. Mike dewine giving an update in the pike. County received eight hundred eighty three tips. We've conducted four hundred sixty five interviews line. Says there have also been thirty. Eight search warrants issued but so far no arrests that we made significant progress but by early twenty seventeen the evidence that authorities had collected was pointing them towards one group of people in particular the wagner. Family that spring. With the case heating up the wagner's decided to leave the piped-in area With jake wagner and hannah rodin's daughter sophia until they sold their farm packed up their belongings and joe. Four thousand miles north to keanae alaska. A city of about eight thousand people southwest of anchorage. It was a move that wagner relative array not only encouraged but conceived of laid been wanting to move to alaska for a while because the pastor of the church known there he he's very important headstone and their family. I'm on told them. Go to alaska number one. The state of ohio cannot afford extra right you from back home. I just thought it was the greatest they took off. I said that's the best in the world for the kids and it's the best thing in the world for you guys. The family quickly got settled in keanae. They live together in a double wide trailer. On a large piece of property billion. Angela even registered to vote. Jeff talked to one of the wagner's family relatives who kept in touch with them while they were in alaska. She has not to use her name but told us about their life once they arrived. What was their life in alaska. Well jake has got a job stretching type business. Angela didn't work. I think she might have done some things from like home over the internet or something like that and bill. I'm not sure what he did exactly. But they did have a very nice home in alaska that they were in the process of trying to buy from what i understand anyways and Jake he had sofi at the time and they just kind of were getting the wagner sudden departure left the whole town of peyton bewildered and suspicious. Dana rodin's friends steph. Van remembers the day. She heard the news. She shared her thoughts with jeff or when they left for alaska hours like. Oh wow they're gonna they're they're ramat iran and then i thought there they'll get away with if they did this. If they did this they will get away with it or people talking about the wagner was the feeling that they might have been guilty or what. People thinking or speculating in town. Yeah they pretty much off the you know. That was the that was the deal. They were running traumatic. But the wagons relocation didn't hinder the investigation according to reporter james pilcher. It only helped to move the case forward. They moved to alaska which raise even more suspicion but then the very following my law enforcement actually finally searches the properties. Where the wagner's left so that was really the first public indication that the wagner's were possible suspects if not people of interest so that started to tighten the news in terms of the wagner's on june six twenty seventeen as the investigation pressed on attorney general. Mike dewine appeal to the public for information connecting the wagner's to the crime. Investigators want any information about the family including information about vehicles. Guns and ammunition. Anyone with information is asked to call the investigative journalists jodi barr recalled the attorney general's announcement other than being on the ground pike county and hearing wacker's names. Come up from time to time in you. you had no verifiable leads or you would exhaust all. That was the first time that anything was said in public from anybody with this investigation that they may have people that they looking at and who potentially at something to do with this time. When new stent of the evolvement of the investigators believed the wagons may have had it was just. They were asking for help. And that seemed really strange but it also the other end it connected some of the pieces that we have heard in the beginning know that maybe gave way to the custody issues that we were trying to dig into before but it was still just There was still confusing. That they would come out and say that and no arrests made no indictments made but yet they were asking for help. Does densify not unusual that they would just kind of like blatantly. Say a name and be like. Does anyone know anything about this person. Who's not had official suspect or someone. We've arrested even. It's just confusing. And i would love to have a male governor. Mike dewine played in the way they played it. Did they know they needed to know. Then were they. Try to the wagner's misstep when they nail this might winds press release prompted the wagner family attorney john k clark to accuse law enforcement of harassing his clients. Here's jeff followed by stephanie. In a statement. The cincinnati enquirer. The lawyer said that the authorities were clueless incompetent or they themselves were involved in a cover up in short. His clients were innocent. That's because according to clark the wagner's were cooperating with officials and had provided authorities with everything they had asked for including laptops phones and dna willingly and they also agree to repeat it interviews with the ohio bureau of criminal investigation. Clark even said the wagner's told bbc agents that they were in fact moving. I spoke with former prosecutor. Mike allen about the legal implications of the wagner's cooperation. What about the wagner's and their compliance with authorities. I know their lawyer has said they've cooperated one hundred and ten percent. Can you talk through the details of that. Sure i mean from what i understand. They did turn over some things. Laptops phones that they submitted to dna Getting exemplars which it could be compelled to do anyway Some of them at least were interviewed by ohio. Bci agents. and i guess they told those agents that they were traveling and and about the move to alaska and they claim they have been thinking about that for a long time. So i mean from what i can see. There was some cooperation but it was one hundred ten percent. I don't know. And frankly. I doubt because the rarely happens. Does that do anything when it comes to. Juries does that hold sway. it can You know in closing argument. The defense lawyer could stand up and say to the jury my client you know. He cooperated one hundred and ten percent. You know meaning that he has nothing to hide. The cincinnati enquirer even track the family down in alaska in july of twenty seventeen in a published article jake wagner said that he had moved to give so fia better life. This is jody bar again. The cincinnati enquirer obviously went there and they found him. I mean if they didn't try to slip off in the middle of the night it didn't seem i mean if a reporter could find him. Obviously law enforcement knew very much. Were they were at that point in time. I mean as far as the level of cooperation. We haven't heard anything. Yet that said the wags were operating with law enforcement. Did they do it. We want to know now. Obviously everybody wants to know right now you know. Let the process play out but man if they're cooperating as attorney says they're giving over computers laptop. dna whatever retakes you know people who aren't expiration criminology. We look at that and go man. That sounds like an innocent person. An innocent person will be doing that despite their involvement in a very large and very active investigation the wagner's were trying to start a new life in alaska and didn't seem to have any intention of returning. Here's our anonymous wagner family source. When i look at how things going you know winter. You guys get come back and visit or so for. She was kind of just really backwards about it. She never would really tell me what they were doing. She never really said when she would be back home to visit just that she misses you know and that she would love to be able to come home but right now. She can't and that she made the comment or and said that if she did get to come back that she couldn't tell me over the phone that she would just basically have to show up and that once she made it here then she would come. I let me know. But that she didn't want people find out about it in alaska. The family went about life as normal. They tried to fit into the local community and became parishioners at the local church. Their pastor even described them to the dayton daily news as quote. Good country people. We reached out to the pastor. Who declined to speak with us. It was at this same church jake. Wagner was introduced to another churchgoer. Elizabeth armor the couple dated for several months and then in march twenty eighteen. They got married. This is jody bar. I've seen you know people on no loss of spouse in their married again six months if he's innocent and he got remarried. He wanted to carry on with his life and maybe the nets it but if he really is guilty of having a hand in killing eight people and one of those being the mother of his own child and then he enters into valve with another woman in love that i don't know i don't know what kind of person you are dealing with here. Here's stephanie talking about what she learned by looking at. Elizabeth armour's facebook posts. She took to facebook to let the world. Now just how dangerous being involved with the wagner's could be elizabeth set in one of her post that god told her to come forward about her relationship with jake wagner according to her posts. Elizabeth met jake through the church and then was encouraged to get to know him by her pastor but she maintained that she had no idea that the wagner's were involved in such large murder investigation and when that news of the road massacre came up. The pastor had vouched for the wagner's telling her that the charges were just slander against the family. However in another post she said she wanted to just be a mother to sophia but that she ended up marrying her worst nightmare. All of those posts have since been taken down. We've tried to find her and contact her directly and she's literally nowhere to be found then. In the spring of twenty eighteen two years after the roads were killed. The wagner shocked. Everyone again this time. By returning to the piped-in area are wagner. Family relative explained why they decided to come home from what i have understood just a little bit. Let's talk to angela and then our family. In general talking they had earned came back wrong because belts family. Father got sick and they couldn't afford or they were losing what that home and everything that had their in alaska so i basically just like a handful of that type of stuff so they decided that they were gonna come back down here and they were just get everything basically situated here once that happens and once i got back on their feet basically than they were planning to go back. They wanted to go back. Angela wanted to go back there. She made that clear To her father multiple times that that was going to be you know they were really looking forward. She believes in just wanted to be there but they had a bunch of stuff is thought. Take care of in order for that to happen. The move seemed baffled. One in peyton. Here's local resident. Angie if you think about it the wagner's scott they went to alaska it took off and nobody could ever seen them again ever but they came back here. They came back now. By the way did i am. I would never do that. But if i had pulled something off like that and got away with that room in which alaska new unpacking my shit and i'm hitting the woods and nobody's ever seen again. I sure the hell not gonna come back. The only way i would come back is if i thought my ass covered upon returning to peyton. The wagner's tried to fly under the radar and return to life as normal but are wagner family relative told jeff that their homecoming was anything but welcome when they came back. Where people kind of like has that story died down or people like. Oh the wagner's are back. It would probably quiet for about. I don't know two three weeks at that. And then everybody found out that they were back in town and they just absolutely tortured daily. Everybody had parted basically attacking then the community Accusing them of murdering those people if they were in town and people identified Their vehicle they would throw balls at them Angela had actually went into a store. One day on some woman had actually up behind angeles. She was coming back out of the store and through a glass key bottle after and it busted her in the back she was constantly getting it was left and right like anybody that knew them or that new. Our family like where we've lived on there was a handful of people had drove by my house and then they were throwing stuff. 'cause i live kind of right on the highway and my house is very easy to but i have no privacy. So when they i was getting trashed people were throwing their trash out In my yard in my driveway they were trying to hit while we might me and my son the you know they were just doing my work. Place My vehicle was parked outside and my vehicle got keyed. They had of course threw eggs on it. All that type stuff wrote a murderer on it. When i had absolutely nothing to do with any of that as things began to unravel for the wagner's law enforcement was tightening up the case against the family. It seemed like it was only a matter of time before they were arrested. Brushed the gators now. Believe there were multiple attackers as according to information from the ohio attorney. General's office you'll high attorney. General says investigation is progressing. Wayne adds his office knows a lot more about what goes on in those pike county hills. Now i know a lot more today. I have cracked the case. Have we come up with enough evidence to arrest someone and get them convicted. Now we have not but we made progress. Oh yeah we've made a lot of progress. On halloween of twenty eighteen authorities conducted yet another search on a wagner family property this time a farm formerly owned by jake george wagner during that raid investigators uncovered a homemade silencer at the bottom of a well. It would seem to be the final piece of the puzzle for investigators as we discussed in great detail. In episode two on november thirteenth angela and billy wagner and their two sons jake and george wagner. Were arrested for the murders of members of the royal family major developments tonight in a bizarre and tragic murder case to two and a half years but arrests have finally been made in the pike. County massacre george. Billy wagner the third. He's forty seven. Also 48-year-old angela wagner twenty-seven-year-old george wagner the fourth and twenty six year old edward jake wagner now facing charges attorney general announced two more arrests of people accused of being involved angeles mother renuka new and billy's mother fridge rica wang we're also arrested today conjunction with the cover of these cry. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. It's crazy how much we have to pay for outdated impersonal healthcare and even crazier that we all just accept it. It's time to face facts. Healthcare is backwards. Luckily there's forward a new approach to primary care that surprisingly personal and refreshingly straightforward forward never makes you feel like just another patient backed by top rated doctors and the latest tech forward gives you access to personalized care whenever you need it. Using in-depth genetic analysis and real time bloodwork forwards top rated doctors provide you with in-depth insights to better understand your genetics mental and physical health. They then create custom easy to understand plans to help guide you to achieving long-term health with forward you get unlimited in person visits with your doctor and access to care anytime via the forward app offer. One flat monthly fee. It's time to stop accepting backwards. Healthcare and start moving. Your health forward visit go forward dot com today to learn more. That's go forward dot com. You wanted to see. Mrs clinton. Have you been hearing about the new government modernization efforts as data science. Things are changing at this agency and people who need new skills. I'd like to get some training. Look at this management concepts catalog. Wow over two hundred seventy five courses. That's right and local classrooms or instructor led online classes. We still have budget in this fiscal year. So sign up online advance. Your career with courses from management concepts get catalog management concepts dot com or call eight three three five seven eight hundred four sixty six angela belly jake. George wagner were charged with aggravated murder. angela wagner's mother rita. Joe nukem and billy wagner's mother frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nukem was also charged with forgery. Six of them pled not guilty and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven at first blush. It seems farfetched to believe that these two grandmothers had a and conspiring to pull off. Ohio's largest mass murder. Jeff spoke with mike allen about the charges against frederico wagner frederica has been charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. So how do you explain that to someone who like me who never been to law school or doesn't know what it means well. Perjury is pretty simple. Under ohio law it just basically says that you cannot knowingly make a false statement in an official proceeding while you are under oath. It's real simple. And the obstructing justice is pretty simple as well. Law provides that you can't With purpose hinder the discovery apprehension or prosecution of a person do anything that would assist someone in doing that. And that's one that That's pretty frequently. You don't see perjury charged a lot. Because it's so difficult to prove but convicted opposed. She would be facing for years. Max plainly stated prosecutors think frederico is lying to them and trying to hinder the investigation to cover up for her family. We'll get into the specifics of her leader for now. Here's stephanie followed by jeff. We wondered if there was anything in frederico wagner's past that could have indicated that she would be involved in something as gruesome as mass murder. As we know the wagner's were well known and well to do family in the area and frederico wagner was at the helm abyss a self-described entrepreneur she owned properties oliver pike county that spanned over seventeen hundred acres and we're valued at more than four million dollars. She also found to nonprofits lucasville mission. A church that helps underprivileged children and the crystal springs home a facility that provide services to developmentally disabled adults as we've learned throughout the series frederica had her detractors. As well as her supporters in the community growing up christina howard spent a lot of time with frederica in fact her mom worked out the crystal springs home. She was pretty well known by everybody if he wasn't doing a charity or something outside of church and she was doing more in church she over two hundred acres of land than a lot of people that lived on her property at sea ran out to sea would say hey you know if you come to church then. I won't georgia diamond rape. And all she ever asked of them was for them to go to church. She was always lies to me. Br on up. She's never yelled at me. She's never really told me. No there would be times. That i would go to work with mom and i were just paying out at friday's all day. Long woman mom was working. You know i would just hang out feed the horses in baths brush james. What early like grandma to build up paint similar portrait of fredrika. She told us about the pastoral surroundings over. Grandmother's fine w farms and her family's legacy in the area you go to their house. You go eight miles out of cincinnati east on thirty three. And i'm telling you you were in that hills the appellation ohio at this. Then all of a sudden you'll see something to the right. It looks like a real nice entry. Way splenectomy forms on and you look. We see a trailer sitting right next to the entrance and nice insurance with wrought iron gates. It's got foreign. Then you look away up. You see all these little houses. Some of them were categories. And then she's got the pig house and then she's got the old walking horse barn and she's got the shop the new come to her her colonial style home and it's very homey feeling when you walk into the home you feel like going home and i see all my grandmother's catholic little statues around in pictures of the kids on the horse theories pictures of all their famous horses. She developed a breed of horse called the georgian guerande that she named after my uncle which he takes no credit for the horses is what the driving passion was for fredericton. Boggled to be together. Stay together work together. Because that's the problem. I think with with people who get married today pay so it's natural to want have relationships it's national. They wanna have kids. When you're young all those hormones in your head to keep you together gotta have salad salad and corn that you have to work with together to keep your family meeting them legacy and that's what rica wagner. Did kit hurry. Baugh developed a breed horse over years. They have a two thousand acre farm. They had three kids and they left them legacy. We're not talking about people who are trained murders. We're talking about real people. Who had real honest to goodness god-fearing lives frederica. Wagner's attorney described her as a god fearing woman who taught sunday school for nearly half a century and lived about as close to the cross as anyone can we all struggled with this contradiction in frederico wagner. How could this sweet grandmother. Who was charitable and kind be involved in any capacity with the murder of eight people so we decided to look a little deeper into pike's most giving resident and what we found was not all virtuous. Jody barfield send after the world became familiar with the wagner family. You know of course. Reporters start digging into their backgrounds. And it's just some of the things that come out you learn about the business dealings and you know what frederica is accused of doing pass. This is good background information to have when you're trying to understand who these people are. But i have to say when. I was only granted. Pike county ohio. When i was hearing their names when i went by flag w far it is a peaceful quaint farm tucked into the rolling hills of eastern ohio. When you drive by there nothing on the surface points to anything. That's been alleged now that any of the people involved in any of this could've been involved in the killing of eight people s the beauty of action against is that you just don't know the whole story until you know the whole story. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment after all that planning it's happening. Your diy closet renovation is finally becoming a reality question is where do you put your things while you work cube smart. Has you covered with month to month. Leases and self storage solutions that make it easier to get organized online or in person getting self storage is convenient and fast and because diy renovations can easily go over budget. It's great to keep smart is offering up to twenty five percent off your monthly rent cigarette bhai to before and hello to after with qb smart self storage visit cube smart dot com for more details. Fifteen minutes could save you. Fifteen percent or more. is that shakespeare. not it's geico. Yeah that shakespeare from one of his unpublished works would be not for awakening may give it. Though the berries for fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more no. It's from geico because they help. Save people money. I hate to break it to you but geico got it from shakespeare. Geico fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percents or more. Let's start with w farms. The farm breeds horses as well. As dogs and pigs typically found in new zealand in the nineteen nineties. Frederica got into legal trouble with a group of customers surrounding the sale of these picks. Here's my gallon again. She was sued by a group of customers. I guess the allegation was that her place. I think it was the flying. W. it didn't meet the standards promise for the sale of exotic animals which is interesting I guess the group said that she defrauded them in the sales they gave them some animals. That didn't match the advertise description. Dana rodin's friend. Becky told jeff that flying w. farms had been whispered about and piked in for years. I one point time. You're fredrika was a person speak feared in the county is. There was always rumors jacket while all the rooms was everybody's like oh you don't wanna get back. Their bad things happen to people that go back here so you i wait for my area back. Where because form. I've always heard things about it. So yeah somewhere. I would never go. Piped-in local barbara told jeff about one rumor in particular day made their money in horses and miniature horses and there's some shady dealings that i've heard about their like them stuffing the horses with drugs and send them back and forth to mexico. And you know just awful things like that now. We obviously can't prove that but it's worth mentioning it's this type of thing that people in piped in like to whisper about one thing we should talk about is this quote unquote life changing rent to own operation. Frederico wagner designed to help lower income residents over the decades frederico wagner entered into at least one hundred thirty two land installment contracts and these contracts basically allowed the wagner's to retain deeds on land as buyers attempted to pay off the principal and the interest. The idea was that if the buyers made all of their payments they'd eventually become landowners but it rarely played out that way in fact as it turns out only twelve of those contracts were actually satisfied twelve out of one hundred and thirty two and looking into all of the deals nearly eighty percent of them are ultimately terminated without a corresponding di transfer and that basically indicates despite somebody making payments at the end of the day the lan stayed in frederico wagner's possession there are countless examples of sour deals. Just like that where people really did feel that frederico wagner took advantage of them and again does that mean that she was involved with a mass murder. Of course not but it does point to character which i do think is valuable. Yeah there was one tenant quoted in the story saying that frederica had raised her run by twenty five percent following the murders and twenty sixteen and another described his rental property as a one room home with an expose toilet standing just a few feet from the foot of his bed again. This doesn't prove their guilt but it does speak to the type of woman. Frederica was or at least how the public perceived her at the time. I spoke to attorney. Mike gallon about fred. Rica's land deal contracts. When i was in piped-in i spoke to some people in these are Just personal accounts but saying you know my family rented land and he ended it for years and years and years and then had it pulled out which i mean the court seems to back that up but yeah land contracts are tough and you know for the person who is you. Know not the The owner of the property but the person trying to buy it there are a lot of pitfalls with it and someone smart Which barely frederica was. They can take advantage of people in a land contract situation. Frederica also runs a nonprofit called crystal springs a group home that provides housing and rehabilitation services to developmentally disabled adults. And according to some when her son. Billy married angela. Nukem who we now know as angela wagner. Frederica wasn't happy about it christina. How're told us. The relationship between frederico wagner and her daughter-in-law always seemed contentious. She never really had much to do with angela unless they come to billy and grown up by her friday call angela. Evil woman tomor to like a nasty woman one time. Angela tried to keep friday from saint her grandkids georgia and jake because they were talking about moving away and all this and i never heard freddie say that she hated anybody but she said like oh really disliked this woman. She's just a nasty woman. Perhaps frederico wagner has reason to be suspicious of angela. Christina howard gave stephanie thoughts on angela. Wagner angela today was shady for sog tour. Like you feel like there's more to were the and stuff like on the outside. She's all happy talks with anybody and everything else but he just get a five farmer More to it turns out that the seemingly devoted hardworking mother had a bit of a checkered past in two thousand and one angela wagner along with billy wagner were charged with improperly handling a firearm and in two thousand twelve they are both charged with receiving stolen property which is a fifth degree felony. Jody becker put the wagner families. Criminal history into context for us. You're looking at improperly handling a firearm charges when you look at those two charges in even the details that were reported to support there's charges. I'm back to where. I was in the rest of the wagons background when you look at this as a whole across the course of their lives the charges of improperly handling a firearm. I mean there's charges came fifteen years before these murders. It was alleged road rage. You know there was a gun pulled out but the charges are dismissed. No one got hurt. I mean that is something that i see multiple times a week. A leisure police reports the charge of receiving stolen property came four years before these murders. When you look at the criminal record. Nothing in this says to me. You've got murderers in the hills of pike county ohio. This could be your neighbor next door with these charges here again is frederica sneezed array reading a news article about her aunt's involvement in the road and murders. So but let me summarize it for you on november thirteenth. Two thousand and eight. In the ohio governor elect my d- wine held and internationally broadcast news conference and announced the arrest of for rica wagner and several of her family members. Governor dewine accused frederick. His family members of the rodents homesites and he specifically accused rica masterminding the cover rock. When i heard that i wanted to call him up and tell him that there was no way and that someday you will have to apologize to my aunt. I do not know who came up with that theory and tried to put it out there. That is someone with an evil mind. I think that that it's that that it's the devil tran- trying to test us because there's no way possible that fredrika could something like ever. She is not that kind of person. She carries the light of jesus with her everywhere she goes. And i am i am. I am convicted on that. There's no way she would have ever done something like that. Ever the idea that the entire wagner family allegedly conspired to kill the rodin's cold blood still baffles. Jody bar to this day nothing. That is the common theme of this entire story about pike county about this road. Massacre is missing. Just too far fetched. Now when you try to connect the dots to the histories of how. The wagner's conducted their business. How they live their lives. I don't know that. I have seen any reporting any fact brought out about the wagner's that would say yep there you go mass murderers i think that is the draw that continues to to keep people interested in. This story is that you would have never seen any of this comics. I don't know what a fairly capable of a mass murderer would look like or how they would conduct your business but this was out of nowhere still just hard to believe. On june twenty six twenty nineteen frederico wagner headed into pike county courtroom for a pre trial hearing with frederica sitting in the defendant's chair. There was a stunning courtroom revelation. Charges against the grandfather connected to the road and family massacre have been dismissed. It was just missed because i was innocent. They had no evidence against me while grammar. the frederico might be out of the woods. The rest of her family await their day in court where he stunning number of truths promised to be exposed. Its search for the crude. I believe that is it applies to this case. The mystery will be solved. The truth all eventually be discovered ano- struggling to keep custody of suburbia. A straight up told her essay present. You with papers did not sign them because they you've got to wonder who is this appointment because if it's a member of the wagner family. I think that's a twist. No one saw common more on that next week. Reach out to us on our social media outlets with questions where instagram facebook and twitter at piped-in massacre. We look forward to answering your questions in upcoming bonus episodes pectin massacres executive produced by stephanie. Lie decker and me. Courtney armstrong editing and sound design by executive producer jared aston additional producing by jeff. Shane andrew becker. The pike massacre is a production of iheartradio and kt studios for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen. Your favorite shows the greatest diamonds in the world of found at movies before you pop. The question visit moves diamond importers with a huge selection of quality diamonds at fair prices. Merv diamond is the region's first choice at murders. You'll receive a free diamond education and no pressure to buy diamonds. Say you know value. Great diamonds and fabulous prices. It's the is way that's why most was honored by washington post as best place to buy a diamond check. Our reviews at moves. Diamonds dot com. Again that's marvis. Diamonds dot com in the land of diamonds. Mervyn king maker queen gorgeous nervous diamond before you go down on one knee visit movers. Diamond importers with a huge selection of high quality diamonds at fair prices. Movers diamond is washington's. First choice at movers. You'll receive a free di- -education and no pressure to buy diamonds. Make a statement. They say you know value nine out of ten brides choose moves. The tenth is still speeches. Check out of us at moves. Diamonds dot com again. That's moves diamonds dot com.
Secrets & Lies: Solving the Murders of Katherine and Sheila Lyon
"True Crime Brewery contains disturbing content related to real life crimes. Medical Information is opinion based on facts of a crime and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment listener discretion is advised. Welcome to try Burry I'm Gel and on Dick. Law enforcement interrogation is a real skill. But much of it has been questioned in recent years with instances of botched police investigations and false confessions. When police have little forensic evidence as is the case with many cold cases, witness interviews and suspect interrogation can be really crucial in solving a case. But how far should detectives go for confession? The disappearance of Sheila, Kathryn Lyon from a Maryland Mall in March nineteen, seventy, five, win unsolved until detectives in two thousand thirteen came across a six page statement made by eighteen year old Lloyd Welsh back in April of Nineteen, seventy five. At, the time of these disappearances wealth should contacted the police to say that he had witnessed the girls abduction detectives in Nineteen, Seventy Five dismissed his elaborate story as just an attempt to gain attention or maybe played the hero. Thirty eight years later. New investigators thought that Lloyd could be an actual witness or even the man responsible abducting the girls. Join US at the quiet end for secrets and lies solving the murders of Catherine and Sheila Lyon. It took detectives multiple interviews to get a confession from Welsh, pulling new details from him like teeth and calling him out on his recurring lies. Today will review the interviews to get a closer look into the mind Lloyd Welsh, the horrors of his dysfunctional extended family and how the lions sisters fell victim to the sadistic pedophile. So pretty heavy stuff today. Dick, do you have a heavy beer for this or you actually do we're gonNA drink a Maryland beer because they were taken from a mall in Maryland. The Beers Cujo with a K. K., U. J. O., not the Doug Book by Stephen King, which is see you J. O., right? Yeah. But you say the same, it still makes me think of the dog. I'm sure that's the idea. The Beers an American imperial stout brewed by flying dog brewery in Frederick Maryland. So it's eight point, nine percent alcohol by violence. That's up there, but it's not. obscenely up there. So I think we'll be able to drink it without falling asleep I. Hope. So that would make for a really boring show. So. The is a black coloured beer. There's no head to it. Mostly, a coffee aroma, little bit of chocolate. The taste is certainly a coffee taste. There's a little more notice of the chocolate in taste and there wasn't a the aroma. It's a fairly smooth easy drinking beer. All right. I'm looking forward to it. Why don't you open that up I'll open it. All Right Dicky? Let's go. You know where we're going. With to required into the house. All right. I'M GONNA. Let you go ahead and start this. Really just heart wrenching story. But I think there is some things to be learned from it. Okay because you know how much I thoroughly enjoyed talking about kids victims. Yeah I mean there are people who don't like it including you. But if nobody talks about it I, kind of feel like it's being ignored and it's something that needs to be brought out there does happen. It's not like we're just talking about it for any kind of thrill. We're talking about it because we need to know what's going on in our society that's making this happen really drew. Okay, so we'll start John. Lyon, met his future wife. Xavier. University in Cincinnati. They were both students there. His wife Mary was from Erlanger Kentucky John was the Chicago. Boy. They married in Air Langer and had their first child a boy they named. Jay. Then after graduation John got a job at a radio station in Ohio, that's where Sheila was born. then. He worked at a radio station Illinois and Catherine more and they're. Following that John worked in both TV and radio in Peoria. He was on a daytime children's program where he played the guitar and Banjo. And in that same time period, nary was in a folk band. And then she gave birth to their youngest child Joe. Some pretty cool people I. Think they sound very interesting. He does. And she s in a folk band I. think that's really cool and it was the seventies. So they were kind of hit by guests. Yeah, probably. John's hard work eventually paid off. You got hired at W. M. A., l.. which at the time, the seventies was the most popular radio station in Washington, D.. C.. And John, was a pretty talented radio personality. So working at this station's worked as a fill in disc jockey, he read the news and he performed in a band, the multitask. Yeah John and Mary were both Pretty Witty People very well-spoken. So March Twenty, ninth nineteen, seventy, five was unseasonably warm in the suburbs of Washington. DC. Catherine. And Sheila Lyon. Ages ten and twelve were on spring break from school. John had worked the night shift the night before and drove home at six. Am that morning and went to bed. She learned Catherine. went to the Wheaton Mall. They had two dollars between them and they plan to get two slices of pizza. And Mary was happy to see them go together. She led the older one, didn't always want to spend time with their little sister, but recently, the two would become close played together like friends. But John Woke up that afternoon to an empty house. Mary had gone bowling and the boys were off playing with friends in the neighborhood. Mary came home with their younger boy. Joe Soon, after John Woke up, then he went back to bed for nap before dinner and Mary went and Rick. Some leaves in their backyard. When the sun began to go down, Mary really began to worry about her daughters. They were usually really good about being home for dinner and Sheila would call if they were at a neighbor's house playing. But Sheila had called and there had been no sign of the girls. But this is nineteen, seventy five. Your mind is not going to go to objection at this point. Nobody really thought like that. No, not then now. So they went ahead and had dinner with the two boys waiting for the girls to show up assuming they would. and. When there was still no word after they finish dinner Mary began calling around to all of their friends. No one had seen them though. So the family drove around looking for the girls and as time passed and they looked for their daughters in the Dr, the alarms really began to go off in their heads that something was wrong. So that's when they decided to call the police. But most runaways. The lions sisters, and they were nearly always found within twenty four hours. So when these girls were still missing overnight, the police began to realize that this was a case that was different. And the idea of follow play was becoming a real possibility at that point. The John and Mary told the police that this was just totally out of character for their girls both were honor roll students, and they both followed rules Catherine who went by Kate. Was the outgoing. Very Athletic, and she left to make people laugh. She was in the fifth grade at Oakland terrace elementary school. Now her sister Sheila was quiet. Or more quiet than kate was in less bubbly. Should recently begun helping her mother Cook. She says started babysitting and was at the point where she was allowed to wear blue eye shadow. Yeah I. Remember that Look Very Popular in the seventy S. right. My sister's you store it. Yeah. She'll is in the seventh grade Newport junior high. And she was going to be trying out for the cheerleading squad. Yes. They checked in. There was nothing missing from the girls bedrooms, their piggy banks and their closets were full and looked untouched. John was certain that they hadn't run away. But considering the alternatives he really wished that he could believe they had run away. Now nearly all missing children are found within twenty four hours and of the thousands of cases each year. Only one one hundredth of one percent have been abducted by a stranger. So not common not in the list and two girls taken together and disappearing completely is extremely rare. So, at first suspicions pointed to the girls' father. John. And we've we know this the only reason but a statistical because most crimes against children are committed by family members. But investigations and interview show the Lyon family to be happy. Sheila with her clunky glasses and blond pigtails was just adorable. Kate was a Tomboy, her blind hairs cut in a short Bob, and she had a freckled face with an open. Smile. Drawings and notes found in their bedrooms show that they were too young innocent girls who love their family and France. Yes such as seem like they were really sweet kids. And looking through their room, it was just pretty heartbreaking for the police, even because a lot of them had children and you can see the little notes they wrote to each other and the things they had I, mean ten and twelve. They're still little kits. Your Mary, and John were heartbroken and frantic, but they were able to keep very calm public demeanor because they were used to performing and they knew that publicity was important if the girls were going to be found. So they would invite family friends and members of the media into their house and serve beverages. Welcome them. Now Mary was under the influence of physician prescribed tranquilizers and John was containing his emotions as he worked to appear composed. So it was not easy in any shape or form. No. But they were anxious to find their daughters obviously, and they were going to do whatever they needed to do. Absolutely. Yes. But it just my heart breaks for that mother must've been terribly difficult. Yes. Now in the first few days after the girls had disappeared. John. And Mary held to the hope that the girls who turn up. and. It would be revealed as just some big misunderstanding. John. Went on the air. You've been said I'm sure we're GONNA feel stupid about this. They probably told us that they're going to sleepover and we forgot. If anybody knows, please send them home. Right. So the Lions House was in Kensington just north of Washington, and in the nineteen seventies Kensington was a bedroom community mostly for Washington commuters Kensington along with the adjacent suburb of Wheaton were home to mostly prosperous couples looking for a safe place to raise a family. This is not the kind of thing they would expect to happen. Of course. The story of the missing girls was on the front page of the local papers, more than three hundred people called the police with tips and every lot or wooded area was searched along with any vacant houses. Even the storm sewers divers were sent out to search through the muddy ponds and a small lake on the grounds of nearby Kensington. Nursing Home. Also, every resident worker at that nursing home were interviewed. But nothing was found in nobody knew anything. It's like they just vanished totally disappeared without a trace. April first, which is just three days into the disappearance. eighteen-year-old Lloyd Welch went to Wheaton. Plaza. Though his stepmother, one of not to get involved light felt that he had some information that he needed to impart to the police. Right and we don't really know what the motive was at that point. No, we don't. Lead with his a seventh grade dropout. Scrawny acne scarred. He had long dark hair parted down the middle and he were a headband. Is Family. Had A history of incest lies and a lot of petty crimes. Right so it wasn't an easy life not at all. The, Wheaton Mall was a plaza with stores on two sides of partly sheltered sidewalks. There were small specialty shops, a Montgomery Ward, department store on one end, a movie theater, and some fast food eateries. So it was spring break and over spring break, the plaza was popular in crowded with mostly school-age children just trying to keep themselves entertained. Right. Just like she lane. Kate had done. Lloyd walked into the plaza on April first and he looked for a security guard. His plan was to talk to the guard and go home. But offering information on the lion sisters was really a big deal. The guard immediately called the police and two detective showed up within minutes. Loyd was taken to the police station where he gave a recorded statement. And the statement was not very truthful. There confusing, no lied and said, he was twenty two years old. And he said, he had gone to the Plaza on March twenty ninth with his wife Helen. So why did he figure he needed to do that? To go back. No, why did he do? I, say is twenty, two and married. I have no idea. I don't get there. He was with. Jalan. Not. Sure. If they were actually legally married, I? Don't think they were actually. I. Don't know why he lied about his age. And Lloyd said, he had seen two little girls who fit the description of the lions sisters and they had been talking to an older man. Who held a tape recorder and none of this was news to the detectives. They're had photos of the gross posted everywhere and a tape recorder man. had been reported as the prime suspect so far. Lloyd's not telling anything that's different. Boy New, right? Nothing that only the perpetrator could share. Roy Lloyd described the tape recorder man is just over six feet tall wearing a brown suit. With salt and pepper colored hair. He said he was carrying a brown briefcase that held the tape recorder and Lloyd said that he had overheard the man telling the girls that he recorded people's voices and put them on the radio. This story was well known to everyone in the community also. Lloyd said he saw the girls, leave them all with this man, and then he said he saw them again outside as the man drove away with them. Lloyd, said, he had watched the girl's talking with the man for five or ten minutes, which seems like a long time. But he said he was sitting and resting as he watched them, his feet were tired because he'd been walking around the mall applying for jobs. You're the is a bit of a suspicious tale. Isn't it? I mean? If. He noticed these kids. Why would he used to sit and watch for that length of time? Well, there were other groups of girls that said a WHO looked like. Lloyd was staring at them. Yeah. Because he was hunting. Yeah. Right. Now, Loyd had a lot of details in his story and maybe they are too many details for him to be sticking to the truth. He said that once he got outside, he had seen the man get into a Red Camaro? With light seats. The girls got into the backseat light city noticed. There's a dent in the right rear end of the car, and there's the best detail light. He then went on to give more details about the car. had. A high suspension chrome wheel covers and black pinstripes on both sides. He further added that the car had white. Marilyn. Plates and that the man had walked with with a slight limp. For Yeah of detail. Yeah. And I think sometimes, people think the more detail they give the more believable it is, but not necessarily, but Lloyd did agree to take a polygraph which he failed. He then admitted that he made everything up about the car and about seeing the man in the girls outside. So the detectives ended up just dismissing Loyd is someone who wanted to get attention and didn't really know anything that was going to help or sure sounds that were heard are be pissed. If I'M A detective I've listened to this guy, go on about what's happened or what he witnessed. And then you find out that I've. Made. All stuff up. Yes, Dick. But I think where they went wrong was they should have looked at him as a suspect. Well. Yeah. Yeah. because. He resembled the suspect resembled a composite sketch. That's true. So. There were a lot of things that really got miss. Yeah. They should have looked into that, but the whole story about the car and everything now. Yeah. Well, yeah, he was clearly lying, but why? What was the motive you have to think about that? And sometimes, it's you know ominous motive than just trying to get attention were. Yes. I would agree with that. But. They should have paid more attention to the sketch that or his resemblance share, but you've just been how many hours interviewing this guy and you find out, it's all made up stuff that has to be annoying. Yeah. You're just getting played. They're wasting your time and these girls are missing. So. Before he left the police station Loyd was lectured by the police about giving false reports. You know he was totally seen as a waste of time. Also, he was obviously high. And they thought maybe he was just interested in the reward offered by the radio station where John worked WMA al.. So. Yeah. They were super annoyed with him. He seemed really stupid to them though not suspicious. It didn't make sense at the time for someone to draw attention to himself if he had been involved in the kidnapping. But we know that perpetrators do sometimes do these things certainly do. So, it was a six page transcript from his interview and it was just filed away with all the other tips, hundreds of them. And police didn't give other thought for the next thirty, eight years actually took twenty thirteen, the problem you've mentioned this that the police completely missed. Lloyd's resemblance to sketch that had been produced from a description de another witness. Gave a man seen at the plaza, and this is the same day that she'll and Katie disappeared. So this girl is A. was named Net Shea. A year older than Sheila. She had been followed that day by a man who was staring at her and her girlfriends. She described him as eighteen nineteen years, old five eleven to six feet, tall long dark hair and a mustache. Now, the sketch that generated looked remarkably like Lloyd. Welsh. When he was staring at the girls, one of the girls had actually called him out and said, why don't you take a picture that it lasts longer true. Remember that was a popular thing to say for tweens back then. Yes. Yes. So yes, in how come they were just so intent on blowing him off as. Give me a false testimony while story that they didn't think about looking at his sketch. Yeah. I don't know I. Don't know how that got missed. I mean there was a lot going on. But. It does seem like a pretty big mistake. Are just from from what? Research we've done, it's seems to me that the police are more. In the pissed off stage that this gadgets wasted some of their time when they should be out looking for the the girls. And they. They just ignored the resemblance to the sketch? Yes. I. Agree. So over the years, generations of detectives look through the case files in two, thousand thirteen detective Chris Hamrick found the file and Lloyd Welsh. Now. Welsh statement in Nineteen, seventy five had been dismissed as ally. But hamrick wondered if he had really witnessed something significant. The end of the statement Welsh had said. That the kidnapper walked with a limp, the man detectives considered their top suspect at that time. Walked with a limp. So like track Welsh down and interview again, and he was found in Delaware. In prison. And thirty three year sentence for molesting a ten year old girl. Right. Strange situation. So they were excited about the limp comment and then they find out, he's in prison for molesting a child. So the definitely seeing some red flags their. Your tennis went of. So, on October Sixteenth Twenty Thirteen Detectives, Home Rock and Davis traveled to Delaware, with the Montgomery deputy state's attorney Pete Feeney to interview Lloyd Welsh and Lloyd's first words to them were quite stunning. He said I know why you're here. You're here about those two missing kids. So they didn't think that he know that right away. It's been years and years her Costa Forty years, but he was just kind of eager to talk to them. Strangely enough. He had a long record of crimes. He'd committed over the years including burglary robbery, assault, drunk driving, and sexual assault, and we know he was in prison for a sexual assault of a ten year old child. So he was being seen as a potential eyewitness to the kidnapping of Kate and Sheila Lyon. But then his history of sexual assault against children made them consider that he could have actually been involved. If. He'd actually seen the Girls With Their kidnapper detectives were hopeful that he could corroborate their evidence against their current prime suspect, and that was another pedophile and a murderer named Ray Maleski. Here's the problem though Lloyd's convicted pedophile himself. So that's a precarious position for any connection to the lion case could mean pretty serious trouble for him. He was not obligated to talk to the police and the police knew that an attorney would advise him to remain silent. However Lloyd seemed pretty eager to talk any continued to be that way. So before they approached Lloyd Welsh, the detectives on the cold case work to identify every possible suspect, then reinvestigate them in order to either rule them out or keep them on the list. The suspects included a handful of sexual predators who couldn't be eliminated. And the one who had stood out was ray Maleski who had died in prison in two thousand, five, Maleski? Was a pedophile and a killer in nineteen, seventy five. He had called the police to tell them that they should offer immunity to the Lions Girl's kidnapper. If he returned them, then two weeks after that call, he called to say that he had seen the publicized suspect a gray haired man with a tape recorder trying to lure children into his car at another mall. So, he was getting himself involved much like Lloyd. He certainly was, and then shockingly two years later, Milewski shot and killed his wife and son. Once, he was in prison for these crimes. He talked a lot about the lions sisters and told some fellow inmates that he knew where their bodies were buried. His old backyard and his basement were excavated, but nothing was ever found. No after Maleski was arrested for the murders of his wife and son. Interviews with witnesses brought out one possible motive for the murders, and that was to keep the wife and son from telling anyone about molested connection to the Lions case on the night of the murders piece of paper on on his bedside table with John Lands phone number on it. So yeah. Melissa's looking like a pretty good suspect. Well. Yes. It's very strange that he had John Lines phone number. Right? Why would he have that in? Why did he make those calls when the girls went missing witnesses told the police about Maleski, picking up young girls and boys for sex and one witness said that he had done this at Wheaton Plaza before. Women said that Malysz key had raped her on two different occasions back when she was a teenager and even some men admitted during questioning that Maleski had threatened them into engaging in sexual acts with him back when they were Boyce. Some Leschi was also exposed as a member of a group of men who would gather at parties to share their young victims. Sonata, Guy a horrible person despicable. Detective Hamrick search for evidence, but kept hitting dead ends. This is when as zoos reviewing documents, he came across Lloyd Welsh's nineteen, seventy, five statement. When he ready for the first time. His excited to see that Lloyd had said the man who led the girls away at the mall walked with a limp. Yeah. I think that was the first thing that really got him excited. Yeah. 'CAUSE Maleski had once been shot in the leg during a home burglary and he had a limp. Yeah. So I'm rick really wanted to talk to would. Yes. Sure. So, that's when the detectives on the case had found out about Lloyd's criminal history. How he had a history of sex crimes against minors, especially, the he'd worked for a traveling carnival. So. He had arrests in many different cities and when they pulled up his most recent prison photo and compared it to that nineteen, seventy, five sketch of the suspect. The resemblance was really stunning. Now lost his hair and his mustache and goatee were now grey. But otherwise, it was remarkable. How much he looked like that sketch. First Lloyd was a witness. Now, the police are wondering if he had been working with Maleski to lure the girls away from the mall or if he was the sole perpetrator. Yet I don't think that either could be ruled out. Now. I mean they, they figured police figure. The two young girls would be maybe more likely to go with the teenage boy. Then with a middle aged guy, which is certainly true. Well, sure. I think a twelve year old likes. Sheila could almost see an eighteen year old as being appear. To stretch, but they definitely could maybe but very different than a middle aged guy trying to get you to go out and smoke pot with them or whatever. But then both Welsh and Maleski had come forward after the abduction to volunteer that information. And that just seemed like it couldn't be a coincidence. Yen, the FBI, the police, create a time line of Loyd welches travels. And compared it to unsolved missing children's cases around the country. And they're actually were a few suspicious matches. One of these similar to the lion case. Carnival. Had made an annual trip through. Texas. And December, of Nineteen, seventy four. Three teenage girls disappeared from a mall in Fort Worth, Texas. So three girls. So, let's go back to October sixteenth twenty thirteen. Detectives met with Lloyd. In a really bear interview room and he seemed to enjoy talking to them even though he knew that they were looking into the lion case. Detective Dave Davis had been worried for days about how he was going to get Lloyd to talk to him, start a conversation, but really all he had to do was being in the room and listen and Lloyd, which is free associate and complain about his life in the prison and just go on and on. So, Lloyd soon, went into what a difficult life he had led, how circumstances gave him no choice, but to lead a life of crime. He said he learned his lesson now and he'd found God. He said his father was really screwed up and he'd never known as. Mother. So at this time, he's fifty six and he felt like he was ready to help us community and really turn over a new leaf. He said. The crime he was imprisoned for he said was just a misunderstanding, and this is just so gross. I'm not gonna say everything he said, but I'm going to give you the gist of it because it's just gives you an idea of what a Sicko he was. So, what he said was he wasn't a child molester because his victim was just the daughter of his girlfriend. He said he'd gotten drunk and just had a momentary lapse. The girl was going to be a stepdaughter. So he thanked God that he hadn't gone all the way with her. Even though they say I penetrated. Lloyd, said it was because the laws in Delaware are just unreasonable. So he went into more detail casually as if these sex acceded to a ten year, old girl were just trivial like a mistake. And kinda proud of himself that he stopped himself from going further. And Detective Davis had to sit there and nod even though this whole thing was just sickening to him. But, he was really trying to create trust with Lloyd like he was on his side, and after many interviews, he was able to really do that where Loyd looked at him like a frightened. Hey just had to be so hard though and I think that a lot when I see interview footage interrogation footage is how do you talk to someone like that without just wanting to kill them? No. So I'm thinking about is either this guy stays in prison for the rest of his life for he gets executed this nothing else to do for a piece of shit like that. Pretty much saying, it's no big deal here, her she's going to be my stepdaughter. So Gross, it's just so horrible. But. You know good old detective, Davis had to pretty much befriend him. Had to be tough. Yeah. He even offered to order food for them. He said the talking to him was just an informal. He did get an assign a copy of his Miranda rights. And Lloyd signed it saying as long as I don't get charged with nothing. Stupid bastards. Then, he went right on talking, he talked about Helen Krever. This is a woman he had been in a long term relationship back in the seventies, right? Dick, way you smashing your headphones bits. I am just so frustrated listening to ads. Why can't I listen to my favorite podcasts without those annoying ads? Well, I can't help you with other podcasts. However, true crime brewery now comes commercial free for our Tigr. Members. That's right. If you subscribe at any level, you get to listen to all of our new episodes commercial-free, and this is in addition to our bonus episodes each month, plus you get some great TCP swag mailed to you join. At least I can listen to true crime brewery ad free. I really wish other podcasts who do that. In jail. Yeah. Do you know where the Lewis I just pounded up my last pair of headphones? So, how was sixteen when Loyd met her and they ended up traveling together and using drugs together. Along these years they were together, Helen lost one baby and gave birth to another three. And after Loyd was sent to prison in nineteen, eighty, one, they both signed over their parental rights and he never saw Helen or any of his children again, which is a good thing for them. Probably Good I. Hope they ended up with someone decent. So. When they took a break Davis consulted with three other detectives. At. An FBI agent, they were in another room. They decided that Davis should go ahead and show Lloyd, a picture Maleski. Now. He returned to the interview. Ruin. Put the picture on the table. Lloyd recognized him. He said that this is a guy who is a minister and drove an Old Plymouth station wagon. He said that the guy had only given him a ride to house a few times and it didn't know the guy's name. But he did say that the guy gave him the creeps and he tried to avoid. So, this is interesting. These saying that he knows who this guy is yet, but then at the same time kind of distancing himself. So. Davis did tell Lloyd that the men in the photo was the guy who is the focus of their investigation. Then he talked about how Loyd had tried to help in their investigation back in nineteen seventy five when he went to Wheaton Plaza and told the guard about seeing the girls leave with the man. And he s Lloyd what he remembered from that day and why the police not taken him seriously. So again, he's putting himself on Lloyd side here. When asked to repeat what he had seen that day Lloyd went into a story that was actually nothing like the original statement. He said that he was standing on a sidewalk near Helen's house miles away from the Wheaton. Plaza. When he saw a guy, two girls in the back seat of his car, he said it was dark out. He felt like something was off with that. But when Davis questioned him Lloyd came up with more specific memories. The man was dressed all in black and wore a black hat. He said that once the girls were in the car he sped off and when asked about, Wheaton, Plaza Lloyd said that he'd never even been there and that he had not gone to a police station to make statement either. He said that he had called the police from a payphone, an officer had come to him and asked him a few questions. So totally different way different. So he also added that one of the girls was crying and that was all he could remember. While the detectives new. Who's along time ago? Again, close to forty years in Lloyd might not remember all of what happened. He was also seem to begin a bunch of invented details. Why would he do that? Yeah. Then, he told. Davis Leonard BE TRANSFERRED TO, a? Maryland. Prison. Otherwise, he's GonNa stop talking to them. So what's this? Why? Why are we threatening not talk if he had already told him everything, he remembered right? Exactly. Yeah. Again, another example that the brilliance to this guy. Yes. So Davis actually showed Lloyd his nineteen seventy, five statement. You know, left him alone with it. So he could look at over and said, maybe this will help bring back memories and Lloyd looked surprised by it. He said he didn't remember going to the police station or taking a polygraph. He said he didn't remember the Wheaton Plaza at all. But then he said, we never went to Wheaton Plaza much and just minutes earlier, he'd said he'd never gone to the plaza. Ermanno I could believe anything that comes out of this guy's mouth. Well, that's what makes this whole thing. So interesting is how they tried to get a confession out of him and how much can we really believe? In. Lloyd stuck with his story. About seeing the man in the girls on the street, not at the mall. I also added that over his lifetime had done a lot of drugs and they're a big holes in his memory. Craters. Detective, Davis told Roy that he wasn't a suspect. But if you continue to deny what was true, might become one. And that was when Lloyd's memory improved or at least to improve, he said, he was not involved in it never killed anybody. He did admit to being at the plaza with Helen Looking for jobs. So. Davis gave Lloyd a chance to merge these two different stories. Really. Hoping to get back to his nineteen, seventy, five statement. And after taking another break to talk to his colleagues Davis returned to Lloyd and told them that they believed he was withholding information. They believe that he knew Maleski and that he may have worked with him to kidnap kate and Sheila Lyon. Laid out the theory for Loyd that Maleski Maleski had recruited teenage boys like Lloyd to help him pick up girls. So Floyd could give them information about Maleski, maybe he could avoid charges himself. Yeah. Good idea. So is see what they're doing they're. Yes. The loyd then would repeat a story about seeing Maleski, putting the gross in a car on the street near Helen's house, but then he would acknowledge that the original statement to the police was his. Then, he insisted he had no connection to Maleski. And by this time in two, thousand, thirteen, both Helen and Maleski dead. So we can't. Corroborate. Anything. With, them. Exactly. But Lloyd said to Davis. That he was afraid. The police were trying to pin the lion sister's abduction on him, and that's probably at least in part. True. He said he had been railroaded for what he did with his girlfriend's ten year. Old Daughter. Even though he stopped himself before actually raping her so. Pat. On his back. There I, guess. He was really proud. He'd only used his hands and mouth on the girl he said. So this was just disgusting and really a lot for the detective to in and he had to continue to act like he was on Lloyd side. And I have to give him credit. I couldn't sit there and do that. Now, it's one of took my gun out and shoot him. Yeah. I mean, it's awful I. Don't like to be violent, but I could certainly see why you'd WanNa do that just a worthless horrible person Yup. Now. Lloyd's suggested that he could maybe give the detectives what they wanted. If, he had a blanket immunity. As he starting to try to deal his. He said that Maleski. was at home, but he wasn't willing to say more until he was given immunity from prosecution. And he showed absolutely no shame or embarrassment for being caught in the Lai. and. He didn't even try to give an excuse he just. Went under this new version of the story. Totally unfazed as if this completely different story. was what he'd been saying all along, but piece of work. So after five hours of interrogating Lloyd, the detectives discussed what they had learned so far, and it was a tough situation. If. Lloyd was actually just a witness. Why would he be asking for immunity? Insisting on immunity only made their suspicions of him grow. If. They did give him immunity. It would prevent them from using his statements against him and they had no other living suspects. You're ru difficult situation her. Yeah. But they worked on it and they were clever Davison the other investigators put together an agreement for. Loyd. Davis insisted to Lloyd that he was working on his behalf, persuade the prosecutor that Lloyd was only a witness and after hours of back and forth, a document was presented for Loyd signature and it really had six important points that I just like to take note of. The first one is that Lloyd agrees to talk to them about the lion case, and the second one is that he has stated he's not involved. So number three, the immunity offered to him is on condition that he is truthful, candid and complete number four, his statement will not be used against him in any criminal proceeding. Number Five, the agreement does not grant immunity for any crimes he may have committed against Schiller Kate Lyon. Sued in their? Yes, and number six, no other promises or conditions have been set. As. Far as the lion case is involved, he does not have immunity at all. And if he lies it all that cancels out also. So pretty clever your art pixel and he didn't really seem to notice the contradictions that I because the immunity offered implied that Lloyd was involved, but it also said that if he admitted involvement, the agreement would be void. So Davis told Lloyd that the document was covering him, but it was created for the opposite effect actually. Davis was really pushing the limits in his description of it to. Lloyd. Too. But he felt confident because he believed that Lloyd was directly involved after speaking to him for a few hours. So this had become more important to him than confirming Maleski involvement now. Even. Though he did believe it was still possible that the two men had worked together. So. He signed it, he did good copy. And he began to share some more information. He said, he didn't number. LESCHI's name. But he did recognize the face. and. He said that Maleski was the man he had seen at the mall. I March Ninth Nineteen Seventy Five He had been wearing a suit and carrying a briefcase. And he was talking to two girls. Lloyd went around and applied for more jobs and when he returned to where he had been, the man was still talking to the girls. The man had something in his hand. But light said he wasn't sure if it was a tape recorder exactly what it was. Said, he saw the girls being led away from the mall by the man? He said, he saw him in the parking lot and saw him put the girls in the back of his car. He said that he told Helen something didn't seem right about this. So it bothered him. So he returned the mall and made a statement. He never saw Maleski again because he and Helen then moved away. Most of this new version. Seems like he's GonNa work to make the police feel like Maleski is the perpetrator. And he's just as innocent bystander. Able to give them a story. You are correct sir. So, Davis then went back to Lloyd's story about standing on the sidewalk and seeing two little girls being put into the car. And Lloyd admitted while I made that up. He said then that the scene at the mall, that's the true story. So then Davis turned around and told Lloyd, he's concerned that Lloyd has changed his story to go with his nineteen seventy, five statement. Which is true. He asked Lloyd why he returned to the mall and approach the security guard and Lloyd said he didn't feel right because man didn't seem like he was related to the girls. Or that they've known. But at the same time, he denied seeing the story, the girl's disappearance on the news. So. That doesn't make sense right nine the least now, Minnie's if you didn't know about it is going to talk about exactly and it's difficult to believe. He didn't know about it. The story had been on the radio, the TV, and in every newspaper for days and days. So. He couldn't say for certain that the girls were the lion sisters that he had seen and he also continued to deny any involvement with the abductions. But after talking for several hours, Lloyd began to say things that made the detectives even more suspicious. When asked his opinion about what had happened to the girls? And you see that a lot I think that's a pretty common technique that a detective will say, well, what do you think happened to them? Right, and just get that can reveal a lot you're given answered. That might be useful. Right. So when asked his opinion? Lloyd said that he thought someone had raped them and killed them in probably burned them. which just came out of nowhere. burned. Them was a really odd thing to say without having any knowledge of what happened to the girls. Where'd that come from? In the follow up sessions with Lloyd, he repeatedly lied about his connection with the case. Eventually. He did admit to helping get the girls to leave with them. But he insisted that the kidnapping rapes and murders of the two girls were planned in done by other people in his own family. He named a cousin, his cousin, Teddy. He named his uncle Dick and his father, Lee Welsh. said that his father had sexually abused him as a child also. So we're GONNA forget about the Maleski now. Is just I don't know for totally GonNa Forget about it, but there's really nowhere to go with it at that point wrote, and Nagoya is confessing that family members were the perpetrators. He just keeps throwing more stuff in there. So. In Two thousand, fourteen detectives started an extensive investigation into the Welsh family. The family had two branches when in Hyattsville, Maryland and another one five hours further away over on a hilltop in faxed in Virginia. The faxed in places called Taylor Mountain. And this is the place of the families Appalachian Roots. Some members had moved away over the years to more sophisticated towns. And even though the Maryland area is much different. The members belong to the same family tree and many of them look out for each other. So, the idea of obstruction of justice by many of these family members was definitely possible. I, think more than possible. I. Think. That's kind of the way they were. They didn't trust authority. The Appalachian ways of the family included suspicions of outsiders, contempt for authority and an acceptance of a certain amount of violence. The sexual practices among these family members is really shocking and totally at odds with what most of us would consider. Acceptable. Incest in the family was pervasive. And the isolation of the families and the lack of fundamental social taboos made sex with family members fairly common. Raising children wasn't taken seriously or with much forethought. Like it would be in the city or in the suburbs. Some adults in Lloyd's immediate family routinely exploited their children and ignored any social barriers to an sexual relations. So, it was common for Welsh children to experiment sexually with their siblings and cousins. If the lion sisters had ended up with this group of people. It's very possible that some of the family knew about the crimes against them and even help to cover them up. That's a strong possibility. Yes. So Lloyd became very serious about pointing the finger at his uncle Dick. He said that his uncle had planned the kidnappings. And had led a gang rape murder and dismemberment of the two girls. And Two Thousand Fourteen Dick welches over seventy years old. And for years, family members had accused him of violent and deviant behavior toward them. Dick denied everything. And he kept his responses to investigators simple and completely consistent. He even acted like you might expect someone who is wrongly accused and wounded by the negative accusations. Yet, but I mean make no mistake he was not a good guy even if he wasn't involved in this road who's keystone another one of those lowlifes an abuser. Yes. In front of a grand jury in two thousand, Fifteen Dick, Welsh testified to his innocence unlike Lloyd. He was very succinct and clear. He denied ever being in Wheaton Plaza. He said he had no knowledge of the crimes. But if he had, he would have liked to help the detectives solve the case he said I'm sure it would have been. Yeah. But Dick's wife Pat would eventually be charged with obstructing justice for organizing efforts in the family to hamper the lion investigation. Lloyd's cousin Teddy. Well, she was only eleven years old when the girls were abducted was not believed to have been at the mall that. Day. Also, he'd had two broken arms at the time of these crimes. So he would have been capable of doing much and he's eleven. To other cousins, Connie Parker, and her brother. Henry, Parker still live near Taylor Mountain. They weren't eager to talk, but they both admitted to being witnesses to the burning of a bloody duffel bag in a bonfire. On. Taylor. Mountain. Shortly after the girls went missing. So they both would testify that the bloody bag was brought to the location by Loyd Welsh. They both had stories of being victims and witnesses too many Inter family sexual assaults as well. By Twenty fifteen detectives had a clearer picture of what Lloyd Welch was really like Nineteen, seventy five. In two, thousand, fifteen, he is a shackled old guy looked pretty Pale and helpless. But. The teenage Loyd was a leaner meaner guy. Who is usually high on Alcoho- drugs or a combination of the two? Back then has long hair and grungy dress is pretty common among young men. But he wasn't experimenting with drugs or free love now, he was a predator. Who is willing to do anything that made her feel good at that moment? Yeah. No conscience at all. By Age Eighteen, he was already criminal living on the fringes of society. The prosperous world people in suburban malls would have filled him with resentment and he did admit to being a very angry young man. He has also perversely attracted to young gross. And his rage could have been taken out on them as well. Sure. While he continued doing these interviews with investigators to put the blame for the crimes and other people, but he inadvertently revealed the truth about himself in the crimes. Many Times. Lloyd's narrative of events didn't make sense very often. But by following the details, detectives could see some recurring details that might be truth. He talked about stocking the girls in the mall, asking them to come with him and smoke some pot. He talked about the younger girl crying in the backseat of the station wagon. He talked about a basement hang out only accessible from the backyard. He talked about the girls being drugged and raped in a room with a pool table, he talked about them being murdered with an axe or hatchet. Andy talked about body parts being in a green Duffel bag and taking it to a bonfire. So. He was telling them that the girls were raped murdered, their bodies were chopped up and burned. That's what it all came down to and those with a consistent details, right? Those were the things that he coming back to even though he would change other things around over and over. So the more, these details came to the surface, regardless of WHO Loyd was trying to play built on at the moment. The more they seem to hold. True. So detective. Davis. Went in search of the place where Loyd had told him, his uncle Dick had killed dismembered Kate Lyon before putting her remains into a Duffel bag in ordering loyd to take it to Taylor Mountain, to burn. The spot was outdoors under a bridge near his uncle's old house in Hyatt's film Maryland, and Lloyd said, this was Dick's comfort area where he felt comfortable and spent time drinking and fishing, Dixon House had been torn down years earlier, but detective Davis knew where the location was. So he went there first. But once there, he could see that Lloyd story just wasn't holding up this look like the last place, you would go with two girls who were the subjects of a massive search. The address was very close. Close, to the city police station and they were officers coming and going in front of that building around the clock. So loyd had told Davis, that there were railroad tracks behind the house. But the tracks were actually in front of the House and across the street. So the layout didn't match what Lloyd told him. Davis went to another house where the Welsh family had lived, and he climbed a low fence there and walked down to the creek. This place that Lloyd had described was not secluded at all. And the angle of the bridge exposed to all the neighbors houses around there. There were also some car dealerships in parking lots in the area. So it would have been really well lit at night. So this was all very discouraging to detective Davis. But then as he drove nearby down Baltimore Avenue, he saw how he recognized from photos in the case file. And this was the house where Lloyd's father Lee in his wife, Edna had lived a two story white clapboard duplex and this was the address. Loyd? Had given when he made his false statement. So he had described seeing his uncle pull out of the driveway with Sheila in Kate Line, in the car and this location made more sense and it fit Lloyd's description. Once you realized that it wasn't his uncle's house, but his father's house said he had been describing. So is making sense that Lloyd move the location in his statements. Just, as he had been moving himself away from the crimes by pointing to alternate suspects. So detective Davis Nikko. Maybe, there's something here. He pulled over knocked on the door of the house. A friendly woman answered the door she was Hispanic spoke very little English. But he was able to tell her that he wanted to look in the basement. And she told him that he could only get into the basement from the outside part of his story. Exactly. He walked down the porch a long driveway to the backyard and went down steps to adore with a padlock. Yet. In each of Lloyd's versions of the story, there was that basement where the girls had been kept first, Loyd had identified it as his cousin Teddy's friend's house, and then as his uncle, Dick's house. But in both stories, this basement was only accessible by walking around the house to the back. And after spending hours with Lloyd and getting used to the way, his mind worked Davis was convinced that this was the place where he had actually kept the girls Loyd had himself. So Davis, was able to get into the basement and he entered. It was dark with a low ceiling like a dungeon. It was full of old furniture, but it match Lloyd's description so much that Davis was excited and very disturbed to be there like he knew something horrible happened in this place. There were two rooms that were completely separate from the house, and you could really do anything there without being heard or seen. So. It looks like a good possibility I'm. So the following day investigators to the location this time with a complete for six team, they were able to clear out some of the furniture and they sprayed Bluestar blood detection agent over the walls and floors. This agent bonds with even tiny traces of hemoglobin and glows under a blue light. So, they didn't see much in the front room, but when they sprayed the back room. Lit Up like crazy. Floors walls, even the ceiling. So it looked like someone had been slaughtered in the basement. Yeah, and Loyd had intentionally led the detectives to this basement, but they were able to put the details together just by listening to his stories. So, before Loyd had described his uncle Dick's location by the bridge as the location where the murders took place and he had talked about the basement, hang out several times. And this was a place with a door that you could lock from the outside. But this basement was actually the place where teenage Lloyd used to hang out. He smoked pot there and partied. Whatever means by that scary here and I wanNA know now. But this was where the lion girls had been drugged and raped, and at least one of them had been killed and dismembered their detective. Davis. Felt certain that. Dick's wife Pat was fierce about protecting your husband, her daughter. Kim told the police that no matter how horrible her father had been to her her mother always took his side. Wednesday. Could beat her so badly when she was young child that she lost control her bladder and she had missed days school until the bruising subsided. When she was a teenager, her father, Dick called horror, and a sled. When she went to her mother for help, she would yell at Kim about how she will always protect her husband above anyone else great house to be your child in. It's really sad. Yeah. Pets younger sister. said that she had been sexually molested by Dick. When she was nine. She was terrified of him. When detectives went to Taylor Mountain. They did find cemetery with unmarked graves and a large fire pit that had been used to burn trash. Sometimes, the bonfire would burn for days. Though this area was marked as a crime scene and excavation was done. Yeah, pat seemed calm, but she seemed more than she would say. Her daughter, Kim called her to tell her the news and the way that pat spoke about her fears of going to prison suggested that she knew there was evidence that could be found. Detectives Talk to Dick Welsh. Again, and he continued to deny any knowledge of what happened to the lion girls. But. This discovery of the basement really brought new hope to the team of detectives working on this case. Of course, there were still many many questions, but they felt like they were finally at least on the right track getting somewhere. You have to think about how much was invested in this in time and effort and incredible. Almost forty years from the time. The crime occurred. Yes. So it's nice that they don't just let it go. You know. So included in the potential evidence were interviews in grand jury testimony from residents in Bedford County. These people testified that Lloyd Welsh had made an unannounced visit to family members on Taylor Mountain in Nineteen, seventy five. And he has carrying two large bloodstain, duffle bags family members and neighbors told the grand jury. Again, this is forty years after that, they recall the smell of death from a fire that burned several days. I'm Taylor's mountain. Yes. It seems like several people, new things and didn't say anything. And I guess that goes back to not trusting the beliefs and not having much of conscience just not being raised with morals. Rate is good. An explanation is any. Yes. So although blood analysis couldn't extract any DNA, they did determine that the blood in the basement was human. So that was something. In two, thousand, seventeen, Loyd. was charged any pleaded guilty to two counts of felony murder. He still denied that he had raped her killed Sheila in Kate but in the Virginia legal doctrine murder was described as a killing in the commission of Duck Shen with intent to defile. So his plea saved him from the death penalty, but he would spend the rest of his life in prison. By. This time he's over sixty years old and his sentence is forty eight years. But still, it's troublesome that many details of the girls murders are just unknown. We don't know exactly how Loyd could have lured the girls and who else was actually involved. Lloyd would later claim that he had no choice. But to keep talking to the detectives, he said that he asked for a lawyer, but he was ignored. He also said that the prison authorities forced him to keep meeting with the detectives. But in his interrogation records, he does seem like a willing participant. But. He does mention a lawyer a few times. He never directly says, I'm not GonNa talk anymore until I get a lawyer, but he mentioned I, think I should get a lawyer maybe I should get a lawyer and the detective say Oh. Now. You know they changed the subject so I'm not sure That's a good thing. Our detective supposed to do that. Who Know Her while she say. You stop. Questioning. I thought. So but I mean, if you don't specifically ask for a lawyer, but you just say maybe I should get a lawyer. Do I need a lawyer? You condense around that. It's really pushing the boundaries though I, feel like, but I mean, I guess they knew what they were doing, right? And there were other interrogation techniques used to get Lloyd to talk. For example, the detectives lied about having some evidence they didn't have, and that happens a lot. The immunity documents signed by the prosecutor and Lloyd was really misrepresented by Detective Davis when he talked about it to Lloyd. But the police are allowed to light a suspects and Lloyd did sign it willingly. In Lloyd, always had the choice to say I'm not GonNa Talk. I'm. Not GonNA, sign anything. Yeah and if he had read that statement. He wouldn't sign it. I imagine that the detectives were hoping that He was too stupid to read it or understand what he was reading, and that might be the case seventh grade dropout. So. In Lloyd's final interviews. He said that his uncle Dick had recruited him to pick up the two girls to make a porno film. Uncle Dick. Was In porn and he wanted to make movies to make money. He said he went to the mall with his uncle and his father. Then after months of including cousin. Teddy. In the story, he completely dropped him. So again, shifting stories, he said he lured the girls and self by offering them pie. That's a little tough to believe ten twelve years old. He think they smokin weed. Now, I mean I. Think it's possible that the twelve year old might go along to try some pot. But no, I don't really think likely not from how these two are portrayed candidate. It doesn't seem like it and their parents said no way. So yeah. I don't think they would've. But I do think it is possible. Maybe. The older sister Schiller was interested in birth. Little sister. Kate. Along. Sheila. got into the front seat between Dick and Lee. K-. Cut in the back with Lloyd. Dick was wearing his security guard uniform driving his wife station wagon. He said that gives Sheila Joint. And she coughed. The, drove around for about an hour and Kate was crying in the back seat. dickin-, Lee were arguing about what to do next May eventually drove to Dix house. Yes. Of course, this doesn't sound very believable. Now, because even if the girl would have agreed to go out and smoke a joint, I don't think she would've gotten in a car. They had three men in it more willingly know, exactly. We'll Lloyd claim that he left before. They got to Dix House with the girls. But he said the next day he returned and saw his uncle raping one of the girls. He said that his father Lee was there filming the rape, then he said he left. He stated his father's house for a few days, and during that time, he didn't know where the girls were. So my question here is, isn't it a crime to see something like that and not go to the police or mature? Awful Burn. It's the moral thing to do. Well, yes. At the least right, the very least you could do, but he had more stories. He said that he and Helen were offered money and pot to watch the girls at Dick's house on Easter Sunday while the rest of the Welsh family had their holiday at least house. He said that Helen Watch the girls while he watched TV, and before they laughed, Lloyd, said that he and Helen saw his uncle Dick Dr off with the girls toward the river. So, this is all very sketchy. Many. Says it he and Helen hitchhiked to Virginia. He suggested that his uncle Dick may have been trafficking children. But something went wrong and he had to kill them. So he said, he honestly believe that one of the girls tried to get away and his uncle loss control. He called it a mishap. Scum the Erica God. Just sick. Yeah. Loyd was shown a picture of the basement space, all it up of lead. He said that he thought they could get DNA match, which wasn't true now, but it was a good thing to say to Lloyd to get him going you're. But one of the most upsetting things about Lloyd story was how he claimed that Sheila had willingly gone with him because she wanted to smoke pot with him and he suggested that she was game to experiment with sex on camera with the middle aged man, and she was actually quite innocent. She's twelve. and. Her appearance deny that she would go with anyone unless she was threatened or tricked. And that seems like the truth to me. Absolutely, but whatever illusions loyd held about deflecting the blame off of himself and turning it towards others. Was Gone when he was indicted in twenty seventeen, his most recent claims that his father and his uncle were the killers was really difficult to believe and totally lacked substance I mean you can believe the type of guys that would do this. But other than that. There's nothing to these stories and it ended up the Dick. Welsh was not charged because prosecutors couldn't make a case against him. In fact, many in the Attorney General's office and in law enforcement believed, he probably wasn't involved at all because you can see the way he did that with his cousin throwing him in. Then when he learned his cousin really couldn't have done. It just totally dropped that you're doesn't explain his lies or anything just moves on. Is really a sign of someone who lies all the time. Route three. So looking at the interview transcripts, the detective lead Lloyd into saying that his uncle Dick was the driver and as quickly as Lloyd had pointed the finger at his cousin Teddy. He just dropped teddy from the story when it was no longer working for him. But then once he'd named Dick as the driver for the abduction. Then he continued to add Dick's role in the crimes and make more of a player and all this. Other girls bodies were never found. Lloyd told him. The Kate was murdered with an axe or hatchet. But. He gave no information on how Sheila had been killed. So, detected obviously wanted to find out exactly what had happened to the sisters and recover their remains if at all possible. Yeah, I think they were when they did this, they were more looking at recovering the remains for the parents than that. They would ever get a conviction of anyone. Sure. So in the last conversation with Lloyd before Lloyd's arrest detective. Davis told them that he was going to be arrested. Davis was continuing to pretend to be on Lloyd side and portray Loyd is a victim. Davis. Told Lloyd. He believed him. But he wanted to clear up things. and. He was able to get Lloyd to admit to taking the bloody Duffel bag to tell her mountain. Well, and then even got him to admit to being in the basement. He said he was threatened that he could be cut up to if you talked or refuse to help. He said that his father Lee and his uncle Dick cut up the body and he helped to clean up. But. He said he didn't know if there was one body or to put into the Duffel bag and it always went back and forth if there was one bag or two also. So a lot of things will probably never be known. No No. Looking over this eighteen months earlier. Lloyd. Stated that he had never been to. Wheaton, plaza. And now he's admitted to helping with the kidnapping dismemberment and disposal of the bodies. Still. He said that none of it was his idea that had never touched the girls. And that he had been forced to help clean up and take the remains to Virginia and burn them. According to Lloyd. Kate was dead when he arrived at the basement and she had been crying and either Dicker, Lee had killed her. He said, he saw, Lee. Putting a leg into the duffel bag after Loyd, drove to Taylor Mountain and put the bag into the fire. You said, he drove back to his home on Baltimore. Avenue, then he and Helen hitchhiked back to Virginia. He said, he was about eighty eight percent sure that Sheila had been killed in taken to Taylor Mountain. His explanation of getting the girls to leave with him by offering them pot though still made no sense. So what would really make these girls leave them all with a stranger? That's the question. If they resisted there were lots of people at the mall who would have heard them and probably come to their aid. So, if the girl's did leave with a stranger because Sheila wanted to try some pot, it is possible I. Mean they wouldn't be the first girls to make that kind of decision. But Mary and John Lyon didn't believe it happened that way and I don't either from everything. We've heard about these girls. They were just sweet young girls. Yes just doesn't really interested in that kind of thing now. No. Soon, the other big question is how one abductor could have managed to take control a two girls. We could have handled them by himself if they had gone willingly with him, but eventually, they would have realized that they were in a dangerous situation. So maybe helped, 'cause she did participate another crimes with him. Or as Lloyd it said, may be Lear Dick helped. Both Dick, and Lee, had an interest in having sex with young girls. But as far as Lloyd suggestion that his uncle Dick wanted to the girls to make porn, we don't have any evidence for that. One regardless of the details Lloyd shared, and the details he made up. It seemed like the most likely place for the girls to have been kept in abused was in that basement. The. Possibility that detectives had knocked on the door of the house while Sheila was still alive outback in the basement was really a haunting thought for investigators. It took hundreds of interviews sorting through a trail of lies in using a variety of interrogation techniques to get enough evidence to convict Lloyd Welsh. He may have never been linked to the murders. If he hadn't gone to the security guard in the mall in Nineteen, seventy five, he probably wouldn't have. And he never could have been convicted if he hadn't talked to the police when they approached him in two, thousand thirteen. He was lying throughout his interviews, but he did sprinkle pieces of fact into the fiction. And it took someone trained and skilled to flush out these truths in the lies. So, even though I'm a little skeptical about some of the techniques interrogators us, I also am really in awe of the skill, it takes to be able to do that. As long as you can keep yourself from. Forming too much of an opinion and you can try and keep as objective as possible. And you can really get tunnel vision with that and that's concerning. Oh, absolutely. Now, there are many times in initial interviews when detectives had suggested to Lloyd. That the guilt was burdening him and maybe he wanted to clear his conscience. But his conscious probably never bothered him in his entire life. I don't think seth investigators believe that was fear of getting caught. That made him return to the mall in Nineteen, seventy five, and then years later, it was fear of being prosecuted that made him talk. Lloyd apparently thought he could lie his way through it. Point the finger at other people get away with it. Well Yeah and he probably had gotten away with a lot in his life. They say, for every crime, you're convicted of you've probably committed several. So, I'm sure he wasn't convicted on every sexual assault, he did. Had a long history documented your. But in the end, there was not one piece of conclusive forensic evidence found for the case. In two thousand, seventeen investigators had found a tooth on Taylor's mountain and it was determined to be human and to have belonged to a child about twelve years old. and. This tooth was sent to the Bedford Sheriff's Office. But then when they went to retrieve it just the next day to take it to the lab for more detailed analysis, it was missing. In. No explanation for this is ever been determined. Could have been incompetence I mean, even could have been corruption of some kind. It's pretty mysterious to me. It is. There is a fragment of a human bone found at the bonfire site until his mountain. But there is insufficient the NA to identify it. Yet. But I just think if you take all the stories and all the circumstantial stuff, and then the fact that you found human bone fragment at all. Exactly. Yeah. Plus there are other fragments of fabric and beads similar to something one of the grosses wearing. Those aren't conclusive but suggestive, right? Right. We. Have traces of Hemoglobin in the basement on Baltimore Avenue. They were too degraded to provide a blood type, but we could prove of human blood which I think is something sure. That was a lot of human blood or what had to be a murder. I. Mean. They'd really tried hard and didn't give up easily. They even removed portions of the cement from the basement, pulverized it, and had it analyzed in the lab. But you know it had been forty years. So that doesn't help. So. The details of what happened to Shi Healing Kate are never going to be fully known. It is pretty certain that Lloyd was responsible, but we don't know if he acted on his own or if he had help. There's no question in my mind that Lloyd Welsh is a monster. But he was a victim before he became a perpetrator, he was abused by his family and he grew up in a clan that was highly dysfunctional, cruel and set apart from more functional. You know so-called. Happy. Families. But he did take on the worst of the world he grew up in and there's no excuse for his behavior. Yes. Detectives on his case. Worked hard and they're justifiably proud of their efforts, but they're also disappointed the one deathly to find the bodies and they wanted to be able to identify any CO conspirators. and. We're not going to know the truth. Because Lloyd's story, still can't be fully believed. No. Of the detectives that worked on this case, there are some different theories, but they all agree that Lloyd was the one who led the girls away from the mall. That rape was the motive and that both girls were murdered. They believe that Kate was killed in the basement on Baltimore. And her body was thrown into the bonfire in Virginia. And they also believe that Sheila was taken to Taylor's mountain alive where she was sexually abused more possibly by more family members and then she was also killed and buried. So. Just tragic and I. Hope that's not true. I can't imagine what that girl would go through. Especially, if she knew her sister had been murdered. Just his just beyond cruel young. Detectives debry whether Lloyd acted alone or if he had an accomplice or accomplices. Possibilities include Helen. His father. Lee His aunt pat and his uncle Dick. Dick, Welsh did have a security guard uniform and he could have approached the girls. And said, their parents were looking for them or something similar. 'cause he's her innocent girls who listened to a person in authority. And I really think that's more likely than the pot thing. It sure is I. think that they would definitely respond more to someone who acted like an authority which Lloyd could have done as well. It didn't have to be Dick Welsh. I. Mean Lloyd certainly could have gotten a hold of a badge or something. You're you could've? Because I really don't believe. They would willingly WanNa go with these guys for drugs. That's pretty ridiculous to me. Some Aaron, John Lyons spent forty years living without their daughters and wondering what had happened to them. And this was only partially satisfying right? Because they didn't get all the answers they need. I don't think they're going to know. They did attend Lloyd's sentencing. and. John read a brief statement praising the detectives who had worked the case and he totally ignored Lloyd. He ended his statement saying. It's been a long time. We're tired and we just want to go home. which I can imagine while I can't even imagine. But I could see that they would be exhausted and disappointed and. A. Whole life of pain. Really, there's no getting over that. No, you don't ever now. Our sources for this episode are the last stone of book by Mark Bodin. The Washington Post Archives, and WD J. TV archives. Is. Actually for such an old case, there's a lot out there. Or. Fascinating case. It is it is I just think it's fascinating. The cold case investigation of it. You're that's the fascinating part. But you know like I said in the Intro, the cold cases are often circumstantial. Right, the show cold justice. It's always what people say pretty much or your. Your it's tough to have hard physical evidence in those cold cases share. Especially since there was no DNA back then. So unless you have some kind of sample, it's really hard to identify anybody according to The Washington Post are actually three Welsh family members who were charged with covering up evidence that includes Richard, Dick Welsh his wife portrait Welsh and also amy Welsh Johnson. There were a couple other people brought in for. As, well, so it definitely seems like a family cover up was going on there. TCCB's music was written and produced by Tristan Capelle. Let's move. undefeated. Becker, you ready for that? I'm ready for feedback. We've got kind of back to the norm, a voice meal a couple emails. All right. So let's start with a voicemail from emily with some case suggestions. I Jill Deck. It's emily I recently rediscovered you is and I have been listening to your older episodes and I'm almost all caught up I worked in a cath lab, and so I am very interested in the medical aspect that you guys both contribute to, and I think that's all I like most about your podcast actually. I. Don't have a beer suggestion because I don't drink. But I do have a couple of case suggestions, Iman ear older episodes. I know that Dick had mentioned the good nurse, the book about Charles Cullen, the nurse with Munchausen by proxy. And I. think that would be an interesting case and I think the listeners to to the Mon- housing by proxy. Syndrome cases well, and the other one is kind of white collar but I. Think, you might be able to pull it off It's Michael. Mastro, Marino. And there's a documentary on Amazon prime called body snatchers of New York, and it's basically about a just fraudulent tissue banks service and people contracted hepatitis C., and they were basically stealing body parts and harvesting. tissue and they did not have the family's consent I. believe that he died of bone cancer in jail. But the the whole affair is Really. Just mind blowing and I think that'd be interesting to check out if you could make that into. NERF you'd be willing to investigate a kind of a white collar crime. Technically, people died not necessarily because of him, but they were definitely harmed. So keep up the good work. I love listening to you. Thank you emily. So? Yes. We did read that book. The good nurse before we were even doing the podcast. You're I remember reading it. Yeah. Thinking this would make a good episode will, yeah. You asked me the other day. Didn't we do an episode? I'm getting old, and now we have over three hundred now. So it's easy to forget. But we haven't done that. No, we haven't. Greg. WHO's a fascinating story? Well, it how many Munchausen by proxy see see where he's actually doing it to other adults? Right? Right, and he traveled all over the place. Yeah. Because he is a registered nurse and did damage at a lot of hospitals. Well, yeah. There were a lot of problems with the hospitals. You know just passing him off to other hospitals. Yes that of actually dealing with the problem. Exactly. Yeah. And then what about this other case? Instead central surgery rationing? Sounds like it route. It's Kinda reminiscent of Paulo Macaroni. The guy who had the plastic tricky idea. And a similar this. Master. Marino was a dental surgeon had to give up his practice because he is addicted to drugs. and. I. Think he actually serve some time. Anyway, he came up with more lucrative idea. And that was that he obtained a license to sell human tissue. And you do that. I? Am Not sure that. He was licensed to deal with tendons, ligaments, skin bone, heart valves, corneas at type of stuff. At the time and maybe it still is, but at the time it was A. Unregulated Industry, you could fetch the system a little bit put. That's the case when there's something new. Yeah. There's all kinds of con- people getting in on it. So as emily. Said, there are patients that get transplants with some of his tissue products that developed infections and stuff like that. Master Marino would bribe much worry people. To give him the body, then he would fake documents that. Showed that the families had agreed to it while those funeral home should be in trouble too. That's terrible. I think they were. Yeah. He also forged studies on some cadavers that might have been infected with, AIDS, or something like that. Saying that they had a clean bill of health. So he's not a good guy. And he made millions proudly aided by his wife or his wife turned blind eye to it share. But then he got caught whence, he's caught his wife divorced. Mica hot potato share. And he was convicted. He died in prison I. Am not sure Emily may be bone cancer look like maybe metastatic liver cancer, but he had some form of cancer in his stead. Okay. So I hope that some of that money went to the victims and that that wife didn't end up with all that money that'd be something to look into your her would. But yeah, I I'm fascinated with the medical cases to we did get some ship for a few people about doing the Paulo case like well, that's not really crime, but it absolutely is. He killed people kill people. Yes. It should be charged and I think having a medical degree. You should be held to an even higher standard as far as these things go and. Yeah I think he's one of the worst criminals we've talked about to be honest with you. Yeah because he knew. That this is all a fraud and a hoax right, and it was all for money and he still did it. Yeah. Money and fame wasn't something of passion. Wasn't it was. He wanted to be famous and rich, and you know he was a big liar in every way. Right? He had the wife and family, he was engaged to the other woman. So. Yeah. I. Think either one of those would be totally valid to cover and I'd be interested. We regret some good suggestions. Yeah. So I, have a couple emails, suggestions one from Penelope. I loved the name Penelope and she says, hi there, did you ever look into the murder of Franklin Bradshaw? Of Utah I found it very interesting, but it's a sad case. Thanks very much. Yes. So without giving much away Franklin Bradshaw was wealthy. UTAH. Industrialists and he was killed in nineteen, seventy eight by his grandson. At the instigation of his mother. So Bradshaw's daughter. told her son grandson. Kill your grandfather. There's so many things wrong with this. And apparently, the motive was bradshaw was gonna cut her out of his will. and. She was gonNA lose her accustomed lifestyle she lived on. Blue the highlife in New York City. So again for money her own dad and involving her own son that super said mother of the year. Yeah. Well, thanks smell of you will certainly consider that and our next case suggestion is from Christy. Hi Jill Hi Dick I, Love Your podcast. Listen to you at work when whenever I'm working on doesn't require too much thinking and I pay attention to your show at the same time. I love to quietly throw out my two cents into whatever you are saying. So here's one to keep an eye on I. Expect. You've heard about it even though you don't live in, Ohio. It should be going to trial soon and has been quite as spectacular case in. Ohio. I woke up to the breaking news on April Twenty, second two, thousand sixteen, and I have been riveted ever since. Eight people, all rodent family members were shot and killed in four different homes in Pike County, Ohio all in one night, seven victim, six adults and a sixteen year old were shot execution style in their three adjacent homes. The eighth person was shot in his nearby camper, a total of thirty two bullets fired three young children, ages, three, six months, and four days old were left unharmed. Thank God hand may wrote in the mother of the three year old and newborn was found shot to death still in bed recovering from the birth of the four day old. based. On the murder scene investigators were quite certain. The murders were premeditated and that the perpetrators new, the rodent family, the police understandably kept a lot of the case, extremely hush hush as they investigate it. So speculation went wild that this could be a mafia, hit a Mexican cartel killing a drug ring killing and or even a cockfighting operation killing based on. On the limited amount of information that was released at the time, this investigation has been the largest homicide investigation in Ohio's history finally in. November. Two, thousand, eighteen, four members of the Wagner family who were known to the rodents were arrested and charged with the murders Edward. Jake Wagner was the ex-boyfriend of victim Hannah, Roden, and the father of her three-year-old. Daughter. As of yet, Ohio has not had the murder trial trials were set to begin this fall. However, the covid nineteen pandemic has thrown a wrench into the proceedings. Pretrial. Originally, slated for April, has been moved to at least June which will push the actual trial further into the year. I expect a lot longer I do expect the jury will get an earful. Far, as a local beer recommendation, I don't drink beer I like girly mixed drinks. But most of my sailing mate certainly do so based on what I see them. Drinking I would have to recommend Great Lakes brewing barrel, aged blackout stout, a Russian imperial stout. Maybe you already did that one though I don't know Dick have we. We have not there would be a good one to do I know you love those Russian imperial stoute's? Or they're good. Greatly screwing. The I've had a few of their beers. They do a good job. So if we do this case and I would really like to do this case. But I, would also like get the trial underway. Yeah. So it might be awhile. For this case to come along Christie, better, that's going to occur. And when we do the episode, we will do the barrel as blackout stout at your suggestion. Fate. Thanks, Christie. Yes. That look like she put quite a bit of work into it. Or thanks she did. Yeah. I do too. All right. One ready to wrap things up how about you? Let's go finish the spear. And take a dip in the pool. Okay. It's ninety six degrees out. It's a hot one. Sure is okay. Everyone. We'll talk to you next time at the quiet. You there now by by? Won't.