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Songfacts Podcast: Author Ken McNab on The Last Days of The Beatles

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1:01:07 hr | 9 months ago

Songfacts Podcast: Author Ken McNab on The Last Days of The Beatles

"Saw. Pitches. And welcome to another episode of the Song Facts Podcast I am your host Cory o'flanagan and this podcast is proudly part of the Pantheon podcast network. If you're like me and are a massive fan of all things, the bales than we have such a great show for you today where would Mr Ken mcnabb who is the author of the book and in the end which details in a month by month manner the year nineteen, sixty, nine for this amazing band we focus mainly on the songs throughout this time, but there was so much going. On behind the scenes as well, that is impossible not to discuss whether it's the turbulence of the business dealings and their new manager Allen Klein to the rising star of George Harrison as a songwriting forest with the global zigzagged of John and Yoko Peace Movement we touch on at all. So stay tuned for a wonderfully articulate Ken mcnabb and be sure to buy his book and in the end. For even more on this often discussed time in vetoes lower here we have can magnum. Okay, can mcnabb. How. Are you today? You have good coach. Thank you very much for having me. Thanks for coming on song facts and I guess before I'm so excited. I could I've I've I've I'm someone who's probably a little bit older but I'm still obsessed with the Beatles and I've never really gotten to talk to a an expert like you. So I'm really excited about it and I guess question number one as a fan and just I've I've always just read musical biographies. I can't imagine if I had them all how many would be on my bookshelf but I've gone through so many and I just love him. So the fact that I got to read your book over the last couple of weeks has been amazing. But I'm always amazed at the details that go into it. Some kind of just interested in the how do you go about your research in an organization of a book like this? What was it like this? You had to become a in how to combine the qualities of A. Detective with an archaeologist innocence because token about events new. Half a century ago. So. I mean like you said, like you said so I'm in a room here which is surrounded by books about the Beatles. The most Retina boot bind in history. A. When you come to project you have to ask yourself to salient question, cody, which is s does the world need another another Beatles. And the. So of some fantastic jake. Some blow books and great pieces of walk I guy to evaluate. Taken very seriously the seediest skull us and these binds seemed to attract that level of scholarship from people so I pushed it with the view. First of all with it being ninety, six eight when I did it for the up vessels book was the Wind McCook new book as John Lewis. Would always looking for diversity. moments, you can attach something to so I took the view. Look at nineteen, sixty, nine through the prism old half a century. And perhaps using not. So not ideal of being a local detective and piece together all the elements from nineteen, sixty nine. And almost diety form Codeine obergefell diagnosed. With then people can people can then definitely de. Video sections the of more appealing to. So I thought if you could stitch together a nominative. Month by month non-active looking events happen in specific months. Then by during that, then you're compiling this. Through the entire year and by doing so you hopefully producing some kind of cohesive whole end of. You're such. I always say I Quixote Yoho by different get lost in translation. To an appeal to you. I just I've always thought that the Beatles the music is the music, but the story of the binders is really compelling essential for people. If you if you're a good story, then the beat told really the uninvited and not an aspect for being just a fantastic story on it so. I completely agree and I think that it's for me anyway for some reason, nineteen sixty nine seemed to be the year that for whatever reason I knew the least about and I'm curious did you find that? That was that you uncovered some things that you were like you didn't know going into it as someone who's studied the Beatles allowed. The idea of the idea of a sensuous at not to try and uncover some mystical revelation but to try a to try and peel by the layoffs. And you? Don't you to do this with any credibility. Court was to try and speak to people who ended binds ORB at that same either professionally of passionately because the problem with a bind like the Beatles is stories, become legends and legends become mets nine job to try dive down into the weeds died down into the the tangled roots of the owner Katya ends trying set three fight from fiction notably do that with the speech people. So what for me it was interesting was to be able to speak to people who were witnesses to history. Again. They've taken events because the problem is. There's been so much mythology attached to the bind. Nobody's it's only natural understanding of Paul, McCartney and Ringo. Starr can't remember key points of the past and what chance to see. Historians House executive. Approached it with a view to speak to people I spoke to testified people Ed, for example, men who? Would ended in Twickenham studios foaming alleged be Ed Don. Rushton. Medical Guide who stayed with joining Yoku through much of nineteen sixty nine. Yeah. A guy who is involved with the the get piece of John's so and when I spoke to these guys, why did find cody was they even after all taken even for a guy who you've laid everything that you can still cheese oh, fantastic stories. Yeah. I took the view the these stories when to. Than perhaps. Show. Because of the Mnuchin me they might be interesting for the people who who, who, unaware of absolutely. Yeah. So that was the challenge. goal in Saints Chine but something new to the table as not some mystical new revelation. You know I mean even even today you hear things like the secret recordings were gonNA continue after nineteen, sixty, eight I don't believe. Thanking. Will maybe come onto the Pizza Jackson, the be. Challenge and not was a goal I think. biolog- a monster tool of. Yes occupied here? Yeah. I I don't I. Don't know if there's another book that I've read. That's been this month to month linear. And I kind of want to jump into that. So it's opens in London obviously just cold London in January and The kind of. Right. Away goes into that the recording. Let it be in the obvious infamous rooftop concert on three Seville road. And What are some details that our listeners might not know that kind of took place behind the scenes that day without giving away the key takeaways from that he might get if you read the book. Yet. Important thing was just the the the. Assembled. avengers assemble the Beatles assembled and. January second ninety-six today to begin what on what would eventually become led to be that tape was cold. Get back at unofficial important here to apply some context to depleted I, think that's important. Thing here is context. Because they had not long finish the grilling stations for the way album when she's ever been able knew it is a double album and it took five months to call the way album. Remember how many songs over until maybe twenty sewn. And the really draining expedience. Here they wear west and two months later back in the studio in the context is this. Event Diagram Cody if you imagine Van Dyke on if we can go back to when described as. You can imagine van dig-. On. With the Beatles in the middle of. John Lennon Paul McCartney Joe China's Rangel stop in the middle and shooting off in various directions of these diagrams. Diagrams can consist of a issues business issues. Pass no issues and simply maturity issues. But the coin cakes is by the time they arrived bite in the studio. I should save Paul McCartney's behest. They were professionally a passing away exhausted liberal judge drained. Copy foam account is he is relentless Workaho Hallway. He has an incredible work ethic. UNQ- arrive by mister domain. Music. Spoke to him. WHO PLAYS WITH? said. McCartney's tooting. Should you a bind in eighteen nineties and he told me music just poor? Help, he has almost like cups. So you know he would arrive with nine, hundred, sixty, nine yielded highest some great songs. Under the Beltway for example to be sticking. Woman Wayne. Lewis kicking island. Two of us. But the other three of suffering from capable only attainable leverage because the religious the restocked point where. The other things happening in the latest being toys, not necessarily for George George and Ringo we'll certainly for joining George the number one priority, but he'll you how. Sergeant Major McCarthy throwing them into late winning team. Because he thinks it's important to. Keep the bind going to maintain. Productivity and but it was difficult another three point because there's a say a dreadful lethargy had begun to ten for all sorts of reasons. There's I mean there's all these everybody's not going to be on the same plane creatively all the time. So of McCartney's doing that I mean who can expect to be able to keep up with that and you know they were obviously under a lot of pressure from the label I forget exactly what they're deal was, but they had to produce a certain amount of music every year so. Might not be challenging for Paul to do that. But then you're also going to have these egos coming in and that's a lot what you talk about in the book of. You know I wanNA have this song on and I think one of the interesting things that I noticed is the precursor to kind of what became the Abbey Road Suite was these combination of songs which they kind of started with. majorly with a day in the life, but then they really got into. With. I gotta feeling. I think that that was a McCartney and Lennon they just said, let's just mush these together to very distinctly different parts without specific does on Tuesday, songs been fused together and they. The. Day is obviously out good example and an as a great station. When in Macau is ability to bring to different parts of a song and a Nissim together to provide to produce a credible. You mentioned the Abbey road sweet enjoys Martin had long time been urging them to consider moving in a more symphonic deduction. Yeah. you know this is the you know heavy wrote you. Know you've got fleetwood Mike storms the WHO. Zeppelin of taking off your medic I. Think you've got the Butterfield butterfield buying. I am butterfly at all these groups on the in a much heavier focus and the Beatles could easily compete with them without any problem and essentially. An ambulance we actually. lately, and it works really well but you know such was the Such A. Between joining poll out PD, for many other reasons that you know it's difficult for them to be on the same page. Even musically I mean one point for be rude, which is course a great album and the last love letter to but went point just to illustrate who. Who Float thanks when when point wanted all his songs to be on one side of the album? McCartney songs could be on the other Kosheh bats just impractical I mean. Say the beetle democracy by ain't. GonNa walk at all. So, we get a common sense Eventua- came through. You know I have the the the mainly in the form that we all knew in love and bridges show should the difficulties? tehmina mainly is a is a top ustry of again a whole load of songs that had been landing for quail actually some of them, some of with Bipasha. India. Sixty eight mean Mr Mustard. And a saint, Louis fragments even knows an argument for saying the throwaways. Somehow thanks to them. Incredible musical genius. They were able to piece to go of this jigsaw. into. What is an incredible piece of what it really is? I think it's probably my favorite whatever it is fifteen sixteen minutes of music that they've put together back to back at one of the things that you mentioned the book is that. Lennon McCartney are. And I think this is a quote fair teen around in their bottom drawers for decent material. And I'm wondering what do you attribute for being the main reason for this? I think in Saint Paul McCartney always had material. As I said, you know he's he's got to be one of the most prolific song rates of stole possessions of all team. beyond beyond reasonable argument. Jordan was struggling I. Think clearly. An just a personal opinion because it's no secret that he hide ahead problem mid nineteen, sixty, nine I think that it did stay me his leading creativity to a dignity explain why? And also affected his behavior and. I always think of join PD cody is like being volcano trump denise. Because you've never Kuwait sure what John Lennon you're going to get. Results of these. Was More than doubling ahead when you know I mean Don Is a valuable nomadic can ACTA. WHO Don't know actually the eight in the old nick sequence for two thousand, hundred, one, a space and he was a famous maim outaced. So if you look at two thousand, one, a space over the ape with the club will by dying astonished. No. Amazing really. And he and he would tell me stories about and. Candid. About the difficulties the and hide with heading and the reason they may be staying creativity and a saints was because if you take weight come together or even if you look at some of the songs on me on the mainly, let it I don't think the fantastic. Come, together as one of the most popular and enduring bittel tracks of old team. got. Just. If you look at the lakes. Visible we've been to. One. What the hell he's talking about. I mean, you know in nineteen, sixty, seven not can of that kind of Happy Gopal. Did was restricted like holy script. But by nineteen nineteen, Sixty sixty-nine flow has weathered the vein and people were looking for something a bit more what. Shall we say? Eb, nor can hear people in the bike goes eight. Wow. Don't tell me. He's criticizing John Lennon associated. No I love join you think he was beating hot of the Beatles I. Really. And without him the. Bind. But if you look at some of these, what from eighteen, sixty nine. And, if you take up song I, want you she's so heavy, I think there's only fifteen one. Who? After. Designed does not mean necessarily that he was literally Bite Rob two point. The flip side of the argument is. going. He said everything you've wanted to say endless safety once. So what's your problem may is being extremely debate in what was an extremely votto. So what's your problem? If he says in theft eighteen months and he says thirteen months Joan cage doesn't use anyone could. So you know. I I. Mean I feel like you can easily argue that either way you can look at that and be like, yeah he just kind of slacked off had a good riff and decided to just put some words to his came up with thirteen or He got this really great message of love across thirteen words. That's pretty incredible to so just to the Lens that you look at it through the absolutely two ways of looking at another good example, Sun King, which is very spa slit Clinton that does not mean does not mean that he he run out of ideas. Or just plain simple fact as you say, he said all in the ones that he wanted to use. So so you know. Can. Stay tuned for more song packs podcast right after this. Back. I'm glad you brought up come together because when I was putting together the outline for this conversation I went to the song tax website where they've got they've got like truthful things that have been proven better actual song facts but then underneath they let. Know fans just go off and just put in their interpretations and if you go and read the thread for come together, it's it's pretty incredible at some of the people have to say about that. I want to jump over now into the what's going on with George during this time because in the book you write about George was writing some of his most notable stuff which I think is is pretty clear but was being treated as a sort of younger brother by Lennon and McCartney and I'm just wondering can you expand on that a little bit for us? Yeah absolutely. My I. Think Nineteen Sixty was an extremely pedia enjoy Johnson's. A. Jones was adopt costs coming up in the end stage real in nineteen, sixty nine. On the album especially he had, he had Mike at town weeps. Sweet Which I still think is the one beetle try cody which I think even though gets better with age really think it's not good. Became I hear I just late love even more but George had always been treated by joining poll as an economy class beautiful simply because he wasn't. Any wars. In their league is a songwriter. Joining poll where the heck fight today, you know they were the the the beetle building in a sense. George Beginnings maybe one of two soames album if he was lucky being won't change Johnson producing some really strong. By the dame, Nineteen sixty-nine comes up he has something may maybe up to them to songs and he's bottom jaw. He knows some of them are very good but it's very, very difficult to fame space on a Beatles album for three principal later. Yeah. But as ever been annoys. Georgia's contributions to. Are Simply Standing Yup? Wilno. Here comes the sun and something which many people we don. Actually maybe the actual in the album. Yeah. Something say yesterday I think. Is the most. Is the second most covered Beatles, talkable, Jane. which for the fiscal orientated was the hottest Houston eight. Sure. Is there any truth to the quote I've heard this in the past and I'm wondering if you know of this quote, I think it was Sinatra that said something along the lines of well, that's the Best Lennon McCartney song that's ever been written and it was like the most like. Best compliment that George Harrison could got being called a Lennon McCartney song in that time. is absolutely giant kit and so soon after used to always introduce song you know A. Great Song by when McCarthy. And of course, George would be setting quietly seething undecided lanes. Any dead code the greatest love Song of the last fifty years. defined by thank obsolete But You know if it's a great piece for George. Corey about Georgia's tape. Because he was coming on as a musician. He also had the respect of other musicians notably bill. Who with whom he had green affinity and a great friendship, and also, of course, edit KLOPP's if you take. If you take. If you stood away wrote music's most famous Manezh Twat. With. Exactly. If you compare that to one side. So you know he has has. Is Morale was extremely good. He was very good place on he didn't. He was overweight the least committed to the bind the Molin point because he knew the in a new, it was also exploring. Of Indian mysticism no, he's life was taking a definite bothell sense but my I do have asleep CD of boom in nineteen? Sixty. A. vis-a-vis opioid. Because I feel that. Will be would I could live with Mike slopes overhaul of quoting. That's kind of clear. You kind of touched on that a couple of times in the book. Yes. I try not to get too observational politics too much. But by my my point is Hind Lennon McCartney been able to cops of egos just slightly and Concetta went up to the songs George, hide the eventually ended up on all things must pass which I still think is probably one of the top three solo albums Otane the. Than I think it would have been saying as the greatest records ever even a song all must pass. Course is when you look at the weddings digs all over the place. To other Beatles Jas Antilles. Cutting. Sands. Of. Fulfillment. And so perhaps later, McCartney, when looked the weddings for thanks most price. Absolutely said I think we will pass and it's a shame because you know the great songs as a couple of other ones for. Tokes. Winded, I'll lose your friendship. Completely pull and ended up on these solo. These great songs and all things must pockets. The Beatles is actually dead. What come on in the Chicago anybody WHO's have the dishes on Youtube? Dreadful. Weather today at a thirty unfortunately punctuated all sanctions on most of the sessions for to be. Ashamed because does say George been given a bit more room and I'll be rude than you I think it would have been okay and it's interesting to know more than context quoting that if you look at spotify and if you have to ask somebody what is the most popular Beatles track on spotify the might come up with hey, jude the let be you. She loves you the most popular spotify s fight here comes the sun which courses jokes hunted. And what an amazing thing to write such a? Just stand alone happy optimistic song in the time that they were in a kind of shows what you were touching on before of him getting out of the chaos because didn't he went and spent some time in upstate New York with the band and Dylan. Kinda saw like wow this is like very free way of making music I'd like to be a part of that and I think he went he was in San Francisco in the summer of sixty seven for a little bit too. So he kinda saw some of that flower power stuff. He's got. So he's got all these ideas going on in his head. It's like. Going to work for him was terrible going home to London in like working with the Beatles was just like this is just stressful. These guys are at each other's throats. I'm not getting the respect that I feel like I should get in it's just really interesting dynamic editing. Yeah absolutely I mean when he when he when he arrived by in London to begin what can lead to be a nine, January nineteen, sixty, he hides his you speak spent some time with the bond with Dylan, and he loves the collaborative approach to making music which is. Very flea you know very much could minded as himself. He arrived back in London. Within two days. He described. Back in the winter of discontent didn't know George, schick speeding, but then you go. Every school day. And did see that he said distributor is. Back, in the winter of discontent on within within ten days of being back in not situation Jordan walked away from the Beatles either dreadful. Everybody thinks they had rightful row with with Paul McCartney over. In history who foam is a famous notorious scene with you know the arguing over Guitar Thanks. George walked into bind because he had with. Snow can make he had over join an again by speaking to people who live have the. Able to apply some Betty Betty. An unusual relationship with John Lennon it'll. Look talked to join join was all done what more wealth ice but Benicio Sixty Georges go in mind he's all of them is going to be you know these guys had been together for so long cody and had been mushroom growing and say they'll be to walkers and by the time it comes to nineteen sixty nine you know yourself you know you don't always hanging the guy, some highschool your lives have begun to veto for different today, Kim Siri troops but on the other could be interested in the horizon. And George. I. Think you said in the Beatles Anthology you know he said if A. If this isn't for me. If you I'm going. He left under frantic discussions I mean lending make some ability sarcastic a will get edit can. Eric, Clapton's GonNa join the Beatles Yeah. I shows you a conversations to try and encourage joint to compared George to come back into the fold but. George was you know he had seen her other groups at what? Later? The nine hundred, sixty nine that's interesting because he actually went to with Delaney and Bonnie which come from nine same function head of the by way of approaching music. and He loved it because you say the beach bubble as much more democratic process an a much at the bottom line is much more fun. Any kind of cherry picked up my sweet lord out of that too. Didn't he? Yes. Yes I'm wondering now because you do a great job of intertwining everything going on musically. The business side of things and we're a songs podcast organ stay on the music here for the most part but I really really am curious of your opinion. Do you think that Ellen Kline. Who became the manager or was it some other role? It was the manager, right? Yeah so he becomes the manager he becomes like in charge of other business affairs at it's three versus one with Paul sitting out on that but is it his is he is he the main reason for the demise? Of Vinegar Question I tried very hard not to apportion blame is the most famous. Questioning wrote music estimate. Who Split her split up the Beatles. And I've been Bene- careful not to apportion blame. You know Yoko. Easy target. Neighbor Kosher. Primarily because. Women. I believe for the sake the she she was specifically Allen claimed again, just apply some belief contexts was the manager of the rolling stones at type. Of bishen voice to. Invested, Comas Gate the Beatles. On. Ever since Brian will ever it stayed had died a ninety seven of nineteen, sixty, seven, the beach. Businesses were And they had. They had fun company Apple Costea jobs a lot of money. On. An apple as kind of what they described as a waste of colby as A. Loss of show. Biz artists to get a fuss wrong on the lineup. But. With apple was begun to lose so much money even allowing for the endings that by the time of Johnny sex eight La Sixty, nine, Nimbus aging so much money there was a serious. Concerned. The Beatles could go bite wrote. Yeah. John Widened famously gave an interview which he said he'd be the last fifty. Which is not James. No No chickenfeed. The financials were going south. So they needed somebody to come in and run the business and these guys. We have here a bass, Guitar Rhythm Guitar Lead Guitarist, and a drummer. They are musicians coating, your nope businessman exactly the the idea of playing businessman. But those are terrible naive attached to not because they are not skilled in running corporate entities. So they needed somebody to come in and run a business empire and Alan claimed when you have when he had Lennon's coot than he setting in as a coach since office in a New York. Rubbing behind with Glee because at that point, he says one what. Gotcha yeah. Thanks. He thinks that has opening to be able to go to end and make a sales pitch to the Beatles old photos of. That he's the guy who can saw. The tangled Arcadia in finances. So he comes to London and he makes his pitch. And our clay as Betty what in a Blue Cola can a guy? You know he wasn't that much older than the? Admit it made it made a world money for other and a Medical Sam. Cook. So kind handsome Kenneth. Pedigree in endings ought to solo but also very rough around the edges going into you know kind of talk into these what it sounded like in the book anyway was these really posh London business elites. Yeah. It means very abrasive character you know known since your video incongruous guy, you know. What you guys. Tuchel neck sweat yes. Actually he actually smoked pap- I mean he could have come from a different. Yeah. When he made these sales pitch to land. You know they have a lot. They had the will of shaved. Into severe notable booth orphans can both lost their mothers very young. They had a low of a bike roads oddities. When it was an easy mocks guys like Klay above a hustler. Joined swiftly went over by claims, but I don't you with your weight. And of course, joining been so impressed because. Clean Dementia which was you money. No told Glennon that he would make Lich even more money than closest Atlanta. You. Know. I was won over by. By claims of Bliss of sales pitch. So he's landed then goes to Georgia. Rangel. and. You know. This guy. He's the guy for me I think he can sort of finances I generally speaking because join voice defined to lead to the bind George Angle cannot tended to fall. By company is a completely different situation because. Paul McCartney l'Ouest. Our NKWAIN from the start. He was a cook I everything every every fiber of these body told not to trust our coin. So at a business sense over sudden one corner. of Mr Lennon Mr Hodson and Mr Stop and then the other corner you have missed copy a nail diametrically opposed to each other over the appointment of our Queen is the Beatles manager. Copy proposed annot And they'll tend to voice he favored his. Name his future in laws which was lead. Join Smith. Come from you know who have their own the entertainment lawyers in New York very successful. With an astounding pedigree in show business in entertainment on he he favored then coming on board to try sort the Beatles finances, and of course, the Eastman's could not have been more different from coin. You know because they've leak Park Avenue Privilege, you know the An AAs video contagious on. You couldn't have been more different than the Profanity Laden Mr Clayton? You know whereas the dead things To the manor born fashion. So these these diametrically attainable dichotomy had said between them in a business sense and of course, it seeps into the music seeps into the personal life. But if a hot too hot to apportion, blame the I view our coin quiz as the Demon King of the Beatles Story. Because he was the one who pay slated McCartney into into. Opposing enough and and he didn't really come good in his promises because you know. In a business sense, the most control was on salt publishing catalog northern songs they lost to city consulting would have been up for sale in the summer of sixty nine. They also lost the opportunity to to buy names always another company attached to blind abstain. which could could have made them a lot of money Clayton guilty of false promises Bush never came to fruition. In the book a love of course, in effect in the Book Cudi. If you look at events hop into Johnny Sixty nine why phones voice the sometimes as the consequences of those events would not become clear until maybe four, five, six months turned mullane. And the involvement of our Klay on his ability to deliver these promises and piloted on the day. The Jordan. Actually a waste, the bind. Game of hunter joy all the evidence points to that, and it's more than just landed. Say don't the other unseen forces played come onto the board later in the year but they all day link to happen alien the A notch. Wife's important to draw threats from one month to the next. Throwing of BEACHELL PEBBLE INTO PU and Emanate from. It really is I mean. That's kind of the as someone who had like A. A decent history of the Beatles I've read another Beatles. Biography that wasn't as like I think one of the things that you can do because you're focused on the specific time is so detailed with it but you know I've read other ones. So I had an idea. So something like that would happen where I read something from February and I'm like, Oh, I wonder if that comes back to us with NYC October November something like that and sure enough it would one of the things that I think is really apparent because if you're a fan, you're going to read it fast but then there's just so much going on this. This is just a year full of action and it's just like They're in the boardroom having these major arguments. The next day, they're all in the studio writing an amazing song. The next week. There of getting married and they've got they've got weddings going on there traveling all over the mostly. Europe. But you know all over the place and it's just like these guys were so busy and obviously I think that that's wrapped up really well in a song like the belt of John and Yoko. Chance. ALMA. So let's veer off in that direction a little bit and talk a little bit about. What was going on outside of the scenes with John and Yoko their marriage they're in their peaceful protests that they were really trying to. You know they were using their. Public Image to do a lot of good. Yeah. Absolutely. You know ninety sixty nine was the year will join landed and Yoko Ono became probably the most famous celebrities in the world. Not. Not, so much for 'em the music because joins. Political Activism. Because obviously year of give peace a chance. And it was the year will join. Innocence became a pied paper piece for the youth culture. On a very important part to play. I, mean you mentioned about joining Yoko you. is going on a business sense. COMES, back to the music at an an an in the case of joining about joining Yoko Joylin ahead of incredible ability to compartmentalize these emotions. Before he. Had A terrible argument optical over business and yet the next day he comes out say at post hosts and say. I need to call right now? Yeah. George wasn't there. He was the country Rengo was the country really the bombing of joining. York. Who is just the two of them I watch really whale. So that example of yet again for all of his opening. A business sense that they will still be able to come together the PUN intended. To try and walk something musically. But but John Wayne is poetic of joining you'll used. Of Cain to use the celebrity. A note to form some protests? Thirteen head in a sense. and. It was a pivotal year because you know, ninety sixty, nine, eight Soviet tanks rolled into the Vicha you had. I in Beckley in America certainly potus. On, of course, the the public disquiet over the Vietnam War was Louis and apex and America was a terrible critical in terms of use culture and I. and. Young people protesting no just over Vietnam separate. So Bisley and John Wayne was able to use a celebrity to is as a major. A major influence trying to persuade walks politicians perhaps says, no, the we a signal pots. And it's interesting me. He's famous for the which most people think just crazy you know. When I go to bed for the week F- epecial and when frostbitten happened seven days after the wedding Gibraltar in mob sixty. Of course, the place invaded to come and see them spending. We can bed, and of course, facebook or Nigel who'd wait and I. Thought, they were going to see some kind of copulation taking place as that's going to happen. But. Apple be joining. You want climbed. Gordon, the message of peace on every newspaper in the United States newspapers for you know the most effective method of communication. And of course, repeated the take in Montreal in June July nineteen, sixty eight but you know and Medicare especially sexist into and univer. Think they were. Treated as a couple of eccentrics and you would eccentric as an awful God performance office. America there were treated much more seriously. As threat right. Yeah. The celebrity was given. A much more. Effective platforms saints. I it's interesting to note the in November and one of the great peace protests of Vietnam. Has something half a million people singing GIF piece of chimes say use. A very effective demonstration one mind's ability. Happy I shouldn't have started to sing it. Nevertheless it a very powerful moment. because. You know people in television digging, American magazines of seeing images of children. New running during the streets naked covered the napalm bombs. Yes. No, no kicks no good and here is John Lennon in a song trying to be a CVs advocate for peace at the end of the Vietnam War and as I say half a million and may even million admiral for told my head. Say Deflate host for Richard Nixon's. You'll hunting donen sade. Unfortunately for joining you know he's poetic to. A guarantee him in Richard Nixon's black book man of course, a terrible issues during the lane with regard to immigration. I think John Lennon typically in nineteen sixty eight as a political activist. Gotcha he had audiences awakes of Pietro in Canada. Young. gung-ho quotation and all of a sudden a begun to Kate Landon seriously. He wasn't just a crazy crazy Mokpo in a much more than. A and also he was injured for politicians. To jump people you know and and it was important and I think he's poetic away I was team. was unusual part of these. These career. Viciously. So much but an eight, sixty nine when you talk to break. Even political activism. Heritage define the time to do all these things exact yet at the same time produced to pretty good albums. Just so much going on I mean you could be exhausted just taking pro you really can and the fact that is battling a you know a drug addiction and all that kind of stuff to he's got behind the scenes that you touch on the book. He's got legal battles, not only within the band, but then with Yoko and trying to like get her divorce all settled. And I mean just the the mental capacity able to do with all that is incredible to me and just you know the simple message of just give it a chance. Have we ever? We've always given war a chance trying to give peace a chance. What if we just tried as raising a question? It's it's really phenomenal and it you kind of touched on this a little bit. With the whole the ballot of John Yoko and how that was just Paul and John. This kind of happens a few times throughout this year where it's Two of them, three of them but not all of them are there together I think there's another I can't remember which song it was, but there's a time when Hall and George and and. Ringo. But they are just you know not all of them were always there which kind of. Now that we have hindsight shows us like, yeah this was kind of starting to go in this direction. And they're all being really creative and productive without each other and I'm just kinda wondering did you have any ideas before writing that kind of change throughout your research of ood there was a sign that I haven't really seen before of this was this was coming to an end. Yeah I think he was just A. Gradual view is Asian as I said when when she began to look under the oldest story and Shane Short late under the stones and I think it was just a gradual piecing together of all the evidence to. The second did I didn't understand that. Hopping and then hosted the top and it was you is just a question of trying to understand the coin takes and the not. An the situation of the teams. And you new. You'll don't they all play together on the same tracks all. Of Advice Majority of teams. I mean join. Always play or At the Charleston. Yes, tells you something about the relationship between the middle. I again, it's open to interpretation. And it's not always very difficult to ascertain the truth behind these things even guys like Lewis in. The door of Beatles historians and it's really really difficult. In. The longer tamed is on the more difficult to become to try and establish. Some can velocity attached to the whole thing you know. So I think this almost on last show. Because PIP WOAH NOT, Thomas. Signal went misleading. So to try and get some of. These witnesses to history? No food to wait is difficult I spoke to. John Lennon had account trash and Scotland of all places in nineteen, Sixty, eight, hundred amazing part of that book because I'd just been up to that part of the country. So. Yeah. Exactly. So you know yourself is very rude always said. nope. No Cosmopolitan shape or form and I won't more than noise days undeb. Able to speak to Dr who attended join annual Lebron Hospital for a week on an agnostic, and again, it was just an example of speaking to people who were there. I get stories, the recollections, and helped to humanize the the bind in some shape or form you know. One of the things I real I was played. If. You look at the cover of Bobby? And I go to Milwaukee. image. On that are three guys down to the bottom left wedding way overdose and they were painters and decorators who just happened to be what can be rude juice day. And One of the phone and he'd never spoken about the find the. Ms almost like a grateful to bomb. Could you know for these guys crashed into the picture and the photographer? McClellan Waving. Statewide Guys police the show and then diffused to go and try to donate to negate one of the guy told me great stories of sitting in the absolute county token to the Regular guys. Yeah and all that Kinda thing nothing was was interesting for me. You know. And I do get image an SEM. Frozen in rural. Cody and it's like the. War. Poem. Age Shallow really them and I look at nights. I remember the actual. That's great and that's another thing that that you kind of go into that humanize because another aspect of that trip up to Scotland for Lenin was the. While he's in there, you know McCartney tries to call him I. Don't think that he talked to a nurse. He didn't get through the nurse was like. In disbelief that Paul McCartney called and she was talking to him but he was like, hey i. just wanted to check on John and she just passes the message on to him and and despite everything that was going on they were they were brothers they wanted to just let each other know that they cared. So you just hit the ceiling. What is I mean, these are the days of no Internet They didn't even have a foreign beside the bed. So you know you have to go through the hospital switchboard and you would ask for that condition report as I. Do not as a young journalist. The beginning the bare minimum information but there's no for the I. Think it does speak to the fight the. Even for older vine and the discord taking place in the background joining poll still loved each other and I truly believe up. I think they had the most complicated complex has. Polity and passed. By. The Beatles there's a whole although although joining poll. Of the key elements, you have four sides of the same square. and. If you take one of them away, even if it's wrinkle I'm a great defender Ringo Starr. Drumming Sensational absolute bone joined boy esque I would suggest. If you take one of them ways that doesn't walk and the Old News. And and I think. Absolutely abondoned brothers I. Think there was something. I always loved the story of the Beatles say the behind. A youngster West had discovered the music then walked into the studio and how these guys have this constellation formed to leave a musical big buying in a sense and I was looking at a love, the story and the asked why nineteen sixty nine can drew. Because just so much going on but I do think that they would abide the brothers. I. Think they genuinely loved each other. Complicated loves only families can understand and I think that I find that the Beatles. Reason people a year and I. Still, talking about buying the lot fifty years after the Louis must have something going for them. I. Think. I think finds, of Light Tub ended the same way the begun, which is Ford guys four French really loved each other and Ringo says. You got your through when you watch A. One fortunately fake and the way. Yeah. Well, the book is called ended in the end, the authors Ken mcnabb, and we we touched on a lot during this conversation. But if you if you enjoyed this, please go get the book it is like I. said I read it so fast I just enjoyed enjoyed it so much. So thank you for right in it. Thank you for research in it and thank you for coming on the show Ken. Or. My pleasure. Thank you for your questions and and for being. So Cambridge Marxist absolutely some people make being farmer. Cusak. Thank you had. had a really loved how he asked himself. If the world really needs another Beatles book before we started writing it but I can tell you that it did I really really loved the way that Ken constructed this book and I learned a lot. So if you enjoyed this episode, go by the book, tell a friend and as always for the stories one, hundred songs go to song facts dot. com. Everybody I'm Mike. And I'm Jesse Erin. And altogether, we are the tree. On the show we're going to share music that we love. We're going to discuss how punk rock has evolved in different sub genres have developed. We're GONNA talk to bands that have been influential in shaping the music industry and our lives. Sometimes. We challenge each other to dig into bands and sub-genre that we may not be into on our own. We're proud partner of the Pantheon podcast network and you could find us across all platforms and on social media at the punk tree. We have a really great time talking about music and life with each other. So please join us. Hi My name is Mike Shoe and along with Moluccan, Russ Khandan from the band town meeting, we host the long. May you young podcast on the Pantheon podcast network? This is our Neil Young cast where we mostly talk. Through four of Mr Young. It's my shoe. In. Trans- and harvest. One. A. We're pretty sure it's the only podcast that covers neil young's musical catalog album by album in order of release. Why are we doing this? Because, we have a neil problem okay. We've got the in-depth analysis, the historical context, the bad movie references they're all there. But Long May you young podcast? CHECK US out soon because it won't be long before the Pantheon folks figure out we don't know what the Hell we're doing.

Beatles Saint Paul McCartney George George John Lennon cody Ringo Starr John Paul John Lewis London Mr Ken mcnabb George Harrison Louis Allen Klein Georgia McCartney apple Twickenham studios Sergeant Major McCarthy John Yoko
The Music Box

Dateline NBC

1:25:07 hr | 1 year ago

The Music Box

"It's a New Year which means everyone is recommitting to the grind but you can't be productive every second of the day or you'll burn out. Which is why when I need a mental pallet cleanser my go-to Refresher Asher is best fiends? Best means is a five star rated mobile puzzle game and it's easy to see why it has all those great reviews easy enough that anyone can catch on quickly early but challenging enough that it keeps my brain focus on the game play which by the way a superfund. You're playing with these cute little bugs. You have to collect more of to reach the next level. It's extremely dreaming addictive. In the best way you can play off line too so best. Beans is great for travel on a plane train. Wherever you find yourself engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of characters with best fiends? Trust me with over one hundred million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play download best fiends for free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without our best beans. I'm Lester Holt tonight. On Dateline one young woman one family family. Dozens of investigators linked by DADS for life was the sweetness of personality that drew people to her so her body was found. Why would anyone do this? Motives were thrown out late jealousy. Some kind of love triangle a massive law enforcement project that had gone over twenty five years. I just say. Could you give us a little something here. There is a new technology where they can take DNA of the killer and create a sketch certain characteristics like hair color color skin tone for the first time we had a face face to put with the boogeyman. Your jaw dropped to see the lease I picked up and put a car on it. Just shed it's done. There's an Andrea Canning with music box. It's a pretty little thing when cicle frivolous but three decades ago this music box became something else. Aw a symbol of deadly intent to that give you chills Seattle music box absolutely oh gift from an evil soul. He had bought ought to music box prior to her being abducted and a clue for the homicide. Investigators who never gave up on this case women grew up afraid having having heard this story and they deserve an answer. The whole community deserved financer. Agawam in western Massachusetts who sits is the home of six flags. New England's biggest theme park. The town itself is small with a wholesome vibe generations of families have grown up here here but on April Sixteenth Nineteen Ninety two. I was in the spotlight for all the wrong. Reasons is just like any typical day. You're you're on your way to work exactly just another typical day. Just another typical day until it wasn't so fear Maynard back then a clerk at Brittany's card heart and gift shop notice something strange. She pulled up to the store that Thursday morning a parked car. That shouldn't have been there. It belonged to Lisa's eager eager. Lisa worked evenings at the store during the day. She was a teacher's aide Jovan and really couldn't quite figure out you know why she would be there her At that time she would be out the middle school. was that on Djing. Seeing her car definitely was odd yes. Sophia parked and went inside. The the door was unlocked and the music was on the lights. Ron so that's weird. Yeah like maybe she had opened the store maybe she I signed something there and you know maybe had a break between classes or whatever some swan something. Maybe she called. Lisa's name. No answer went up and down the narrow aisles past the coffee mugs the porcelain knickknacks the music boxes and cards. I walked around the counter where the cash register was and her purse. was there So then I kind of started thinking. That's odd it's odd. Why would her purse be there? And she's not exactly she checked. The back of the store door saw that one room was a mess. Were you worried that you were going to look into one of these rooms and possibly find Lisa in there. That was the first thought. UH In my head was if something had happened to her that that I was going to finder there but twenty-four-year-old Lisa's Zieger wasn't there wasn't anywhere in the store. Is Your heart pumping. I was Cardi panicked at that point I knew something obviously happened and to her so I just my first instinct was to just run and call the police. She ran to a store across the road to call all nine one one. They told me I needed to go down right away. Britney's car CIA. Detective Wayne macy. The Agam Police Department was assigned. The case. You had over there right away. Did did how much information do you have very little at this point in time or adjusted somebody was missing from that store. Once inside. macy's macy saw Lisa's coat as well as her purse. The messy storeroom the untouched cash register. And it doesn't take a detective even to know when someone's belongings belongings left behind like that. It's not a good sign right. It's not you know in your heart and your mind when those kinds of things are left behind. Obviously this is not going to be a good thing. macy and his colleagues had their video camera out searching for clues. Meantime the news spread to. Lisa's mom. Deasy Gert I got a phone call. I from the school the school where Lisa work during the day as an aide lied. She said you know hasty. Do you know where where we so might be. She's she didn't come in and I said I I don't know maybe she overslept. D- Didn't think anything of it but then Lynn Roger Sohn. Lisa's older sister got a call. This one from a friend who told her that Lisa was nowhere to be found. My anxiety was through the roof. I was completely right away from from the phone. Call on word. Is this because her personal belongings were left behind in her car. Is that in. The ambulance door was open. Yeah she would never do that. She would have never left that store at risk by leaving it on lock ever. You're lynn raced over to her mom's office when Len came to the office to tell me she said Oh mom. Lisa's missing an an Portland. My my response was what do you mean with US missing. This is just unfathomable it's just unfathomable. What do you mean she's missing? She can't be missing just just not at all what you're ever expecting to hear an atom Massachusetts not no not at all but what was coming was even more incomprehensible it almost more than they could bear. Detectives are about to turn up evidence of a fierce struggle in the back of the gift shop Triggering a massive search for the missing Lisa. When we return there was a door to actually had what appeared to be a he'll market and there was a little bit of blood spattering way? You're gonNA find but you just keep looking and later a picture of a killer painted by DNA. It doesn't tell you who's a killer as but it can tell you what the killer looks like. Correct Lisa Zieger disappeared in April nineteen ninety two during her evening shift at a gift shop. Detective Wayne macy was called to the store the next morning. You're worried immediately very much. So shall we started looking in the store for closures to what could have happened there at the scene police swarmed the place and there was a a door to actually had what appeared to be A. He'll mark in it where somebody might have kicked. The boxers were actually flattened down like somebody might have been on those boxers and there was a little bit of sludge battering on some of the boxes. So you're looking at the beginnings of a of an abduction. They believed the boxes the dent in the door. Four and the blood splatter all pointed to a struggle. We started an immediate search of the surrounding area Dumpster areas back alley allie areas behind. This was kind of a strip mall type area and there was a Lotta little nooks and crannies that somebody could put somebody. Did your not find anything. No they talked to everyone who was in the area that night. Did anyone see anything there. Were a not not of any significant inch. Detectives developed a time line. What time are you thinking this happened? We're thinking somewhere between eight thirty and ten minutes to nine on natty. That's a really accurate. Small small window. The last transaction on the cash register was at eight twenty PM. A customer told police. She came into the store at nine but it was empty. She thought she heard a noise in the back and left so she was about forty minutes from closing. When this happened they soon had a working theory of what happened? There in a shelter took place in next door to gain some kind of control over Lisa there was also a side door and side door led to an alley and they probably went outside and just pull the car out and left from there and then just vanished and then just vanished. But where was she now. nope the AGAWAM PD the Massachusetts State police and the FBI launched an intensive search. Lisa's parents D and George per siblings and friends gathered third at the family home to wait. They were terrified. Who would hurt their fun? Friendly Lisa the girl with the cornflower Blue Eyes. She was bubbly China's Lynnwood to say when she laughed. She laughed like this to cover but if she was laughing. You're laughing too. She had an infectious giggle and and She was small but her personality was pretty big. Lisa's life was full packed with her many interests. So this is Lisa's artwork artwork. Yes yes yes. Some of it Summers from college from High School these are pretty colors to town blew. Everything has ten Lewin at according to Lisa and she was always sketching in her spare time. Yes she just something she loved to do she did something else. Lisa love to dance here. She is at her parents anniversary anniversary party a year before she vanished. Kim Murray one of her oldest friends we would go out to clubs and we would. I'll listen to music and dance and she had her favorites Brits but If we were in a car even driving and and a song came on that she loved she would pull over to the side of the road into a parking lot and just turn up the radio and get out and dance so really yes really yes she would pull the car over. Yes this sounds like a dance like everybody's watching. Yeah kind of dance like no. No one wants the middle school kids. Lisa taught were drawn to that Zany. Fun Loving Spirit. David Zieger is her younger brother. I think that she decided to become a teacher because she always liked to be around children. You know I mean she was kind of a big hitter self. She was to enjoy life. And and see the silliness and and things and to be able to relate to kids that well at the time she vanished. Lisa was in love her boyfriend. Blair Miss Soya worked with computers. He lived in a house with a bunch of roommates including at bore Gaudy. Was Your House kind of the gathering place for all the friends parties dinners. Yes for young. So yeah we I mean all the friends would come there and we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of different parties and had family over a lot which was unusual for kids. Very Adam Blair. We're good friends and Co owners of the House. Were you happy. That Leeson Blair found each other. Oh absolutely I've never seen him happier. She seemed really really happy They were great together. Everyone talked about it. Lisa Sister Lynn was another roommate. So you all knew each other real. This was a tight-knit circle. France had Lisa spent a lot of time at your house. Yes in the days after she went missing. Lisa's Franz form their own search parties at went out with Lisa's boyfriend. I remember it was raining and cold and we walked through the woods and he didn't WanNa stop looking thing and I said you know we're soaking wet. Says he didn't WANNA stop looking. I wasn't going to stop so we just kept looking. What was the mood like? It was stressful stressful. But sick feeling they don't know what you're GonNa find her and then you wonder. Why are we doing this or what happened? Like she must be somewhere and but he just just just keep looking. Did you think that maybe she was okay or were you starting to lose hope. I don't know things happen so fast. They just were redefined her. Those were probably the longest ease of our lives. I mean there was a lot of in order to help the police. There was constant calls from them with with questions. And could you come down and look at this or does any of this sound familiar to you. I think there was so much of that year. Anxiety was kind of on high all the time and that was especially hard for her group of friends. Four days past in a heart thudding hand-wringing miserable blur mark and then on Easter Sunday. The ZIEGER Scott the news. They never wanted to hear coming out. There were tire tracks that that had been going in and coming out of possibly from the person who took Lisa here very possible. Yeah one mystery about to be solved another just beginning joining. You really didn't expect here when dateline continues. It was Easter Sunday nineteen ninety-two four days. After Lisa Zieger disappeared all kind of disbelief at the time. Stephanie buried now a reporter for the local newspaper The Republican I was just twenty years old when Lisa disappeared working at a restaurant in town and of course we were trying to sort through. Is it really true. Sifting through the rumors mors. We just couldn't really believe it because Agam is such a sleepy little town and it's very insular. Detective Wayne macy. AC was worn out that day. He and his team along with the state police and the FBI had been working long days searching for Lisa. Then they got the call. All that changed everything. McConnell came to the dish batch that a man walking his dog after dinner and actually observed what he believed to be A female body laying in the woods on a small hill. And do you head right over there. Yes the four of us Jumped in a car. We headed over there to that location. Listen it was a scant. Three miles from the gift shop release had been abducted when they got there. They found a dirt path leading into the woods. But a path that you can easily miss if you're just driving pasture simply especially at night simply a curb cut and we expect. The suspect knew exactly where he was going. Because you'd have to to. What we landscape has changed since that gray spring day it was much more open back then and muddy and it was had been rained on for basically three days and some sleep and a little bit of snowed so what we did was before that came in here? We walked in each other's tracks back all the way to disturb the ground we're about up to our ankles wound going out and there were tire tracks were tire tracks in that had been going in and coming automobile possibly from the person who took Lisa here very positively. Yeah that's what we have to go far before. They came upon a grisly scene so her body westbound right in this area. And what is the scene telling you well. She is partially clad She has a pair of Boo China and some of her clothing had been pulled down sexual assault Obvious Sexual Assault Defensive wounds on the hands dance things like that you believe. She's still alive when there was Evidence that There had been a scuffle in in this area and That she had ended up over there. And that's where the the The assault actually took place where she was killed. How did you know for certain? It was Lisa We had a description of her on that particular evening when she was wearing an and also a particular charm bracelet that we all were aware of and overcharging bracelet. We're still there a young woman with her life ahead of her brutally assaulted and stabbed multiple times detective. macy had the dreadful task of telling the family I can remember jumping into the car and rationing at a very high rate of speed down to the Zieger CH- house mm-hmm because I I thought that if I ever slowed down or stopped they might turn around and let somebody else do it. But he kept his nerve and kept driving until he got to the Zieger Kurt House and when I got there as I was walking up to the door I can remember thinking to myself. What is she the easiest to Shay Apish the best way to say the word dead? Deasy Gert spared him that way and came to the front door and I looked at him and I said you found her he said yes. I said she's dead doesn't check and he I I took this day okay. I think how brave he was what courage that took to come. I just I went down to my knees and it was something you you really leaving expect to hear your mind. Let it go that far. It's always like it could be this. It could be that but it's not gonNA happen it's GonNa Happen. I actually did something similar To mom and I almost went to my knees and then they took a deep breath in and said to myself. I got stuff to do there. There was a lot of stuff to do sad stuff hard stuff that night. Investigators brought Lisa's body out of the woods and the zegers began making arrangements so a shattered community. Could say it's goodbyes. How many people do think came out? Strangers let friends thousand and it was raining eastern eastern student rain inside funeral home. And we're so good and you couldn't talk with anyone but yet you didn't feel like talking for Lisa's brother David who had had flown home from California. It was a reminder of the tight knit community he knew as a child when big tragedies happen communities kind of joined together and have each other's back in Guam is no different. They did that. They did that for us. They put themselves in in our position. Imagine and if my daughter or my sister or one of my family members had this happened to them how would I feel a sleepy little town learn about real real fear. After Lisa's murder our parents were horrified and they started not letting US watch cars at after dark alone. Some some of the parents wouldn't let their daughters even go to work for a few days. After she was kidnapped everyone knew there could be a killer living among them. Someone who knew the area it side alleys it's unmarked pathways. This could be someone you knew. Yes could could be a resident of agawam right right. That's a scary feeling. It's very scary. Many women felt the same way. Signing up for self defense is classes and carrying mace. I know that I stopped talking to many of my male friends. At that time you know I was afraid to even carry on friendships with people. Oh because I didn't know what had happened to her. Investigators worked flat out for months. Little did they know that decades later they'd still be added. got it coming up. A possible motive. Motives were thrown out late jealousy. Some kind of love triangle and a possible possible suspect I would hear that definitively that he was the one who killed Lisa Zieger and the lonely wooded area on the Jaguars where his body was found was lonely. No more no less than fifteen detectives assign. Investigators fanned out across the muddy patch. Gotcha land searching for anything. That would help them catch. Lisa's killer at this time. We're analyzing all of our evidence. We're continuing to follow up on leads. And we have investigators assigned to work around the clock I survivor. We have is a potent. They found buttons from Lisa's clothes and her Denim Adam skirt. They took molds of the tracks spotted on the pathway and they studied the autopsy report which said Lisa died of knife wounds to the neck but her body. We had another story to tell them. Did you find male DNA on her. We found DNA and the analysis came back. We always assumed at the time that it was going to be a male so this could be your ace in the hole could be are such exactly as they questioned. Lisa Circle of friends. Investigators asked the men to give DNA samples. They scrutinize the boyfriend closely. Nestle always do in cases like this but Blair's DNA. Hannah wasn't a match Andy. Alibi they ruled them out the secrets and their friends for their part never once suspected him. was there any part of you or anyone else who had to at least look at Blair. No big just because I mean now I can honestly honestly no never ever. In fact as investigators drilled deep into Lisa's life. There seemed to be nothing troubling. Did you learn anything about Lisa as far as like maybe an angry ex-boyfriend and an emmy somebody that may have wanted revenge on her. No we find out that there were some difficult situations in relationships with leash. That wasn't the case. She was just a regular person. A schoolteacher person who worked night. She had a lot of fringe She had a great family. One account did give them pause. Lisa's good friend Kim Murray told investigators that Lisa often talked about an eerie feeling that she was being watched. Yeah that night. Our Thursday night before all of this happened I stop by the store and she was there alone and I remember standing in front of the big windows in the store and she said that she was having that feeling again someone was watching her. Yeah and I said there's nobody Eddie out there. We never really got much more information out of Kim or anybody else's in regards to the particulars about that feeling and this particular case case it was probably significant significant. Maybe but not enough to go on and Anyway Aga- Williams. Detectives were swamped with tips ups. They followed up on everyone. You've found Lisa. Your job now is to find her killer. That's correct and there's I can't imagine what else was was much more important than that. Nothing at the time that was going to be more important than this particular homicide and we worked around the clock showtimes Schick. AM until two way on we would go home and and get a few hours sleep in shower up and come back at six. Am and do the same thing for Schick shelvin eight weeks in a row seven days usual week but as the days passed without an arrest some of the locals became obsessed with the terrible thing that had happened in their town. They would gather at the little coffee counter. Stephanie Berry and at the time you could smoke in restaurants they would smoke endless cigarettes and drink endless cups of coffee and and just talk about theories. Endlessly one theory about the killer's identity tore through town. A do vividly recall. All people sang. That kid has father owns E. BS. Oh he did was a popular restaurant in town just steps from the gift store where Lisa was working when she was abducted. The owner of the restaurant was Ed Burgundy his son is Edward Gotti junior I would hear ear that definitively that he was the one who killed Lisa. Zieger the same ed who owned a House with Lisa's boyfriend the same ed who helps search for her who comforted her family after her death and to helped carry the coffin at her funeral motives were thrown out late. Jealousy some kind of Love Love Triangle. People were calling stating that he might have been involved in this crime in one way or another detective. macy says many of the callers pushed the love triangle theory. Sorry but it was a triangle with a twist rumor that was coming in from an awful lot of people was that Ed had a relationship with leashes boyfriend and that at one point leash might have come home and found them in a compromising position. Both Ed and Blair and that now something would have to be done with Lisa. This is what we're getting a possible motive exactly and everything had to be investigated to which fullish I at Borghetti was so close to the zegers. He was like one of their own. Could this be possible coming up. A linked to police leads to accusations of a cover-up people were calling from Akron stating that. It was because his father which police shape which he wasn't that we're or hiding and when dateline continues at Gotti was one of Lisa's eager to close friends but now many in the community believed he may have killed her. Did you you have anything to do with Lisa's death absolutely not but ed says he understands why the police had to look at him in those early days after Lisa was killed. I mean that's what the police have to do. And and they had to talk to all of us. I mean you gotTa start somewhere and I was more than happy to talk to him. Tell him anything. I could tell them while. Ed was cooperating grading with police. The rumor mill went into overdrive one of the rumors. That persistent was that you were in a relationship with Blair and that Lisa Sakata you together and so you had to get rid of her. What's your reaction to the reaction is ridiculous? It's a rumer and that's all I'm going to say it's even ridiculous. Even address that the Gotti family name was well known in town at Father. Ed Senior was not just the owner and namesake of the family's restaurant he was also a retired Aga- one police detective and prominent member of the community says his daughter Shelly. My father was on the town. Council has a park named after him. He did a lot for this town so I think it was an easy target. Easy name to remember. The name was known in town and then it just spread it just snowballs no balls it out so I think I really think that's. That's what happened. Shelly says the rumors about her brother. Were hard to ignore particularly whenever someone called the restaurant to threaten confronted him. We're GONNA EG his car you know. Why did he do this? And what's the frustrating part is. You can't stop it. You can't stop it and they didn't even have social NYDIA. I don't know how it went around that fast. Making it even more frustrating says Shelly is that she knew it was impossible for her brother. Ed To have killed Lisa. Where was your brother that night he was here working with me and a whole crew of people never left never disappeared time? No actually not. He was here working with all of us. There's plenty of witnesses. Not only did ED seem to have a solid alibi. He also had the Zieger support. So how'd you feel when his name started emerging in public as a person who may have killed Lisa. I was angry three with people who are making the comments very angry. Because I knew he'd never did it but the chorus of accusations against him Kim was almost deafening says. Detective macy when you have everyone beating the drum in the town that this guy did it. You can't ignore that. No we wouldn't until we were sure that he had no involvement in. They had to follow up on information that his truck was similar to a suspicious vehicle. Seen by Witnesses and of course they had to ask him for. DNA You took a DNA sample from at Burgundy. Was it a match. No it was negative and his father who I knew very well at senior had come up and shut Wayne kept you. Just go forward and let the community know that Ed didn't and do it and I told Ed you can't do that. The Policy Department is not to admit to who your people of interest are period because at some later date something happened and you have to change story they had to consider whether Ed might have had an accomplice or that evidence could surface implicating him later. He wasn't it crossed off the list. But it was so frustrating. When you're in that position and they're spending the time on you and you're thinking to yourself this guys get away but for those who thought it was was ed who was getting away with Lisa's murder? The rumors turned into conspiracy theories show many people were calling for Magwar stating that. It was Abergavenny and that it was because his father which police chief which he wasn't that we were hiding it. The DAD was a detective. He would detective. And we're going to cover enough because somebody's relationship with somebody on. The police. Department is a direct and serious allegation against you all. That were the Unicorn Warren to think that anybody would do that. Many in Agawam continue to believe at Borghetti was involved in Lisa's murder but detectives had to move on. They had other tips to follow other leads to pursue hoping that one of them would reveal. Lisa's killer coming coming up. One of his case fit. The lack detectives may have unlocked the mystery. That's kind of harm lament. Well Yeah I'm saying despite having DNA from Lisa Zieger it's likely killer. Detectives tasked with solving the case had so far har come up empty but it wasn't for a lack of grit. We had ten to twelve in our immediate detective bureau meeting on a daily basis and it also wasn't for a lack of tips. Those kept pouring in each one of those had to be followed up and discounted or kept going one of the true one. Such tip led investigators to bring a local man in for an interview along with the questions they had for him was an unusual request. They wanted to see his keys. There was one thing missing in the abduction of Lisa and that was a key off of her catering. A key belonged to her apartment. Shall we have shown that very possibly suspect had two key. Detectives had taken the law from Lisa's apartment and brought it to the station whenever they interviewed someone they would see. If one of the persons keys fit the lock and this time it worked one of the other other officers payment on whispered in my ear that the key at the lack of one of his keys fit the lack. That's kind of an Aha moment. Well Oh yeah then I'm saying Bingo and came up with the key and I said what is your key for education. My apartment and I said well. Then let's go to your department. Did you think that you might be looking at the killer. Absolutely but when they got to the man's apartment the Kief it has lock it was the key it turns out the man's key also fit. Lisa's lock because their buildings were run by the same management company which sometimes used the same locks. It was a deflating moment. We had show many of those moments. Like the call about a man who seemed fixated on the women coming in and out of leases his health club or the tipster who said a man borrowed his truck only to return it with blood stains all over the inside. Detectives determined neither of those men killed killed. Lisa your whole body. They also used hypnosis to help to women. Try to recall the license plate of a suspicious vehicle. They each seen the night. Lisa was abducted nothing and with the help of Interpol they traced an SUV from agawam all the way to Russia to check its tires against the tracks left at the crime scene. No match macy even met with F. B. I.. Profiles hoping they can help focus the search. So what were they telling you. As far as who the profile of who this would have been somebody between the ages of twenty two and and thirty probably on the lower end end of that age. who was from around the area of where the dumpsite was where where he left leash and also the card shop but the FBI profile didn't get them any closer to Lisa's killer in an investigation? You usually start out getting this much information and eventually it starts to go like this and you come to the point where you actually have person involved. This investigation kept going like this. It's getting bigger. We're getting bigger and bigger and sending us in different directions and every one of those directions have to be followed up whether they wanted to or not detective detective. macy and his team found themselves tangled up in bad breakup and ugly. Divorces has numerous women called tips pointing to their husbands and boyfriends as. Lisa's aces killer. Some of them had ulterior motives whether their husband had beat them abused or the the ex boyfriend had gone with another another girl like revenge reporting right and we actually had the kind of determination here is to what we're dealing with case in point the call that came in from an attorney across the country in Seattle. He stated that both he and his private investigator had come across some things that they thought might be of interest to us. Kevin Healey was that attorney. He was calling on behalf of his client Joyce Shera who confided in him her darkest fears about her estranged husband and Gary. She thought he was involved in a murder. Lisa's murder the couple lived in Massachusetts when Lisa was killed one town over from Agam and despite having no connection to her or Zieger family anytime any news came out. She said that he would be glued to the television. He needed to know every single little detail about the murder and the progress of the case catching the murderer joyce and her husband were going through a nasty divorce fighting eating over custody of their young son and he knew full well the links spouses sometimes go to gain the upper hand. But he says it was different with Joyce Everybody makes allegations but she had a visceral response that was so pained. It was clear there was. There's something more to it. It wasn't like she was just pulling something out of the news to use it as amunition in the custody battle it was real for her. That's why he felt compelled to reach out to the police department. This is the first time you're hearing about this man right detective. macy wanted to speak with Gary Shera. He didn't wait long because the same day. Healy called Soda. Gary he calls were stationed in wants to know if he is in fact suspect eager to clear his name. Gary said he'd come by the next day to meet with macy but instead macy heard from another lawyer this time it was Gary's divorce attorney. Ernie she said Gerry wouldn't be talking to police because the accusations against him were a setup concocted by his estranged wife and you had seen a bunch so those before with all these girlfriends you talked about calling in saying their boyfriend had done this or that at some point the credibility the other witness comes into question that credibility took another hit after detectives spoke with Gary's friends who described the Demons Joyce was struggling with. She was an alcoholic. She was depressed. Sunny things entered into this. So where does this lead go. Then at this point at this point we take it as far as we can and barring anything else coming in. We don't have enough to get a search warrant or a subpoena to Gary in and have him give us his DNA show it kind of goes on the back burner. Another name another accusation with no direct evidence. Implicating him in the murder murder and so it was filed away among the boxes of expanding case files and the detectives moved onto other leads in the fall of nineteen ninety-three three a year and a half after Lisa's murder the investigation got a national boost when the TV show unsolved mysteries aired a segment devoted to the case ace Massachusetts near the Western Connecticut. Border is a small town. Did the show give you hope it did. It has such a wide reach and it was popular. Show we'RE ECSTATIC ATTIC when they agreed to do the show. We picked it up because it was the family who was affected. The town that was affected. I mean the more we looked into it. It became a crime against the tail now. The show generated hundreds of tips many again pointing to add Borghetti. Were you aware that after unsolved mysteries air. That more more tips were called in about you again. I was aware that in again frustration of their spending. All that time. Answering the fallen about me when you just wanted to get tips on somebody else like move on. But for some reason it just wouldn't I don't know why automatically the show to provide the breakthrough. Investigators were hoping for at this point. We're getting used to let down. We just gotTa keep going and it moving ahead with any and all information that that's coming in wall. Investigators kept searching kept following leads billing more boxes. This Lisa's family kept hope and her memory alive. We want people to know that we will not forget we will not give up. Someone knows something and we hope that they will find the courage to come forward coming up a new face on the case even after ten years. Did you keep getting new tips. And all the time tips were coming in and later a message passage from the killer himself. Your John must have dropped to see the lease when dateline continues. Hey Guys Willie geist here here this week on the Sunday. Sit down. PODCAST I get together with Ed Harris to talk about his prolific career from the right stuff to westworld and now to to kill a mockingbird on Broadway. Get our conversation now for free. Wherever you download podcasts? Uh Lease Zieger. A budding artist had been murdered order. Nothing at the time was going to be more important than niche particular homicide. Some small town thought they knew who killed her and why motives were thrown thrown out late jealousy. Some kind of love triangle. ORB still no arrest. We just gotTa keep going keep moving ahead now. Many years after the murder new detectives were taking over the case. The answer is in these files who's just going to be a matter of time. They're about to try an amazing. DNA tool that can paint a picture of a suspect certain characteristics like hair colour and I call her skin tone. A suspect would left behind a charming clue. And and something else you read the letters just do that. This was the guy here again. Is Andrea Canada. In the years moved slowly for Zieger family each anniversary of leases murder marked by a vigil with no arrest chronicled by NBC C. Affiliate W. W. l. p.. They come every year to sing to pray yes. It was six years ago today. That native Lisa Zieger disappeared appeared. Eager to murder is an act of one. Despite the passage of nine years the zegers found touching ways to mark the milestones. Lisa should have been the maid of honor at Linz Wedding. My husband and I went to the cemetery brought her a bouquet that she would have carried. That is a really nice way to include her in your wedding thing. Yeah they all had an actual K.. For Leisa the family raised. Money for scholarships and Lisa's name and help dedicate memorials to her. There's memories and reminders of Lisa everywhere. She still makes a difference at every vigil. Every press conference every event there was leases mom standing front and center the face of a determined family. We want people to remember Lisa for what she was and also to remind people. This is an unsolved case. No one has led the charge more than you to insuring that it stayed active and that people cared and people were paying attention. This is a real mother's love right here. I never refused an interview. I never refused refused working on something so that if they saw me then they saw Lisa they remembered about Lisa. I think it was helpful in in keeping Lisa story relevant a kept it very real to everyone for a number of years. We did Memorial Golf Tournament and we raise Bunny for scholarships for Kizza Highschool. But Lisa's brother. David says at times family paid an emotional price for their efforts it. It became some kind of mental drain for my family because all it reminded us is another years gone by and we still have no no answer. She's got no justice so it just became too much and we stopped at. Lisa's unsolved murder. Also weighed heavily on detective. Wayne macy who who with the passage of time had grown close to Lisa's parents. Deion George Ziegler Te. This family that started off strangers really became like family to first first day shooting under steps from that day on. I have so much respect for both Georgian de mainly because I don't know how does you And Lisa herself held a special place in his heart. I never met Lucia but I know her. I know picture because in my mind and I am. I visited the grave quite often during the investigation. Just talking to her letting her know Brad given up but after a decade of investigating Mesa had still not been able to solve the case. Did this case haunt you did there were eight murders in Guam that I remember and we seven arrests and seven convictions. Leashes leashes with only one that was on stalled. macy had worked tirelessly to find. Lisa's killer. Investigators had crossed oceans. Running down leads. They had built a massive case file filled with names of potential suspects names of people who had been cleared names of people who had refused to submit the DNA samples all those boxes and file cabinets. Proof that the case never went cold it was never far. From all of our thoughts on the forefront really because even though you have a larceny or a bank robbery or whatever other crime you're going after leashes the number one case. The effort wasn't lost on Lisa's family. I think that you do feeling well. They can only give resources to for so long. It's not their fault that There is nothing there to find so I think it was always astounding. Yeah they comfort. Every time that they would remind us that this will never be a cold-case cold-case but despite macy's best efforts he would never see an arrest on his watch. You retired in two thousand and three with this case unsolved. That's a bitter pill to swallow as you walk out the door that police station for the last time I had thought about that And in thinking about not retiring but I truly add enough. Sometimes you have to know when to pass on the torch and and to give it to somebody else switch them fresh energy new ideas. Just give it to them and let them fly would that somebody was sergeant mark bow. You Work uh-huh patrolman on this case from day one and now fast forward ten years you're in charge of the whole case that's correct. We may see retires. I get promoted. And then when he leaves the detective bureau the the cases assigned to me so much to do so much to do so much to do with regards to where where the case stands thou- faced an enormous task of combing through file cabinets and boxes filled with evidence and leads reading every every note and document that was gathered throughout the years elite. A tip of phone call would come in in the investigators we'd take it and they start defile and that individual and they'd worked at file as far as they could take it at that time so even after ten years did. Did you keep getting new tips then. All the time tips were coming in kept get hitting dead ends hidden did it. But then you pick up another file and you and you run with that. How frustrating was that hitting getting so many walls? It was very frustrating. Because you you saw. The time and effort of the previous investigates in your team are working hard and you kept the faith that it was that the answer was in these files and it was just going to be a matter of time time it turns out was was on their side. Another decade passed but then a groundbreaking tool and DNA analysis emerged and investigators were about to take a giant giant leap toward identifying leases killer coming up a picture of a killer drawn by DNA for the first time we had a face to put with the boogeyman. Who League to what do you think when you see that sketch it was two thousand fifteen anthony? Gloomy was the newly elected district attorney for Hampton County. Gloomy may have been new to the job that he was no stranger to the Zieger case. How old were you when the spider happened? I was twelve years old and I grew up in an adjacent place. You remember the case. I do as a lifelong resident of Western Massachusetts. The looney understood what was at stake that I now how have inherited this investigation and have an opportunity and a responsibility to investigate this case and make my best efforts. In my team's best efforts to bring justice for Lisa and her family was a remarkable realization at the time gloomy also realized the asset he had a detective FAO detective -tective foul had more experienced. Certainly with this case in had institutional historical perspective on the case that very few had at the time gloomy decided their best chance to crack the case would be to match foul with an investigator who could bring with them a new perspective and the latest investigative tools rules enter state trooper noah. Pack your the newest member to this investigative team. What did you think about the case? I thought it. It was a massive law enforcement project that had gone over twenty five years hundreds if not thousands of reports hundreds if not thousands of witness statements. Hundreds of DNA samples have been taken dozens of law enforcement. Investigators had worked on it quite frankly. It was overwhelming. What are you seeing with your fresh eyes? I'm seeing a lot of names. Names coming out of files names of people who've come and it becomes a task of trying to figure out whether or not we've looked into these people if if they've been eliminated and whether they should be looked into in greater detail. Foul unpack got to work. Seamlessly combining their different skill sets and years of experience experienced to focus on finding. Lisa's killer. I love the dynamic. Two of the young guy gets paired with. Please forgive me. That's okay the the old guy and you guys come together and have an have both have unique approaches to this that complement each other perfectly. It really did it really really did. And it's it's It was a friendship that was formed as well. I mean there's a partnership with a true friendship that was formed in a lot of respect to the young kid in a Lotta respect coming back to the old guy and he did get called my dad. I know we can't along with a fresh approach to the investigation came a new take on how to approach the DNA The da decided to try something called pheno typing so DNA. Phenol don't typing is essentially reverse engineering. DNA It doesn't tell you who the killer is but it can tell you what the killer looks like correct certain characteristics like care caller and I call her and skin tone including ethnic background gloomy had the DNA from the crime scene analyzed by Para Bond labs the leaders in DNA pheno typing technology but with a nearly twenty five year old sample. There was no guarantee the process would work. If it did parabak would be able to create the composite. Sketch of what. The person with that DNA might look like the authorities. Hope they or someone would recognize the sketch warrant it Tokyo year and a half but PABON was able to complete its report. Thank you all for coming. Thank in Particular Ziegler family. Who here there is all of at this kind of intrigue? We have a big announcement regarding the Lisa Zeqir as so. We're all in pens and needles. Today I am releasing the Snapshot Composite Sketches as as developed by paramount to the public to composite sketches were generated one of the person at age twenty five and the second of what he may look like two today. These facial images represent a new and significant development in this investigation. Could these sketches help. Ide- Lisa's killer when they released that sketch sketch. Perhaps because I didn't understand the science behind I will confess. I kind of rolled my eyes like that guy. Looks like lots of people I I was expecting being more from this big announcement. What do you think when you see that sketch disappointment that I didn't know who it was by looking at it watching movies and TV shows? You think that you're going to see this this profile picture and you're GonNa say I know that guy and then I looked at the picture and I know I got nothing. He doesn't look like anybody that I can. I can recall all. So that was a little deflating thing after being so anxious to see what this picture look like but David says the sketches still made a huge impression impression on the family for the first time we had a face to put with kind of nebulous the boogeyman. You know for lack of a better term. This kind of mystery person who done such a horrible thing on the disappeared into the mist. What were the physical characteristics and traits coming from this profile Brown hair brown is fair skin and European ancestry and that effectively statistically eliminated people who didn't meet that criteria so that's a helpful tool very the authorities like Z.? Gertz weren't able to match the sketches to any single individual but plenty of people around town felt they. Could we got somewhere or to the tune of one hundred and seventy tips that came in after the initial press release related to pair on did Edmore. God's name get called again on a tip anything different from before nope just basically to say the same stories that would just would never go away with regards to his involvement in in the case but soon after taking office Diego Looney finally dismissed those stories. There were suggestions that Ed had will make relationships with people roundly roundly so he says boyfriend that was something that was explored and found to be totally false false as well. Where those rumors linking his truck to the suspicious vehicle? Seen that night there was concrete forensic evidence against that theory of the case Ettore Gotti accused and hounded right burr to and a half decades had nothing to do with. Lisa's death. Did you tell at Burgundy this no and law enforcement when does not make statements eliminating suspects prior to the case being resolved but investigators felt they were now one step closer to that resolution armed with an Nigeria of what leases killer might look like they went back to those file cabinets started by macy and his team and took a long look at all those names. They called the name down to only those men who matched the paragon profile but had refused to submit a DNA sample one. Where do you go from there because these these individuals had refused to provide their DNA voluntarily? We were essentially going to go to the court threw a grand jury proceedings to essentially compel them to provide their DNA sample apple. The grand jury voted to order the meant to provide their DNA. Eleven men were in the first batch. Trooper packed began knocking on doors. I serving the papers. Some of the men were more familiar to investigators than others including one made quite an impression over the years coming reason for not providing a DNA sample. He stated fitness afraid of cloning. That's got to be a new one. I for you. There was a first and last when dateline continues it was August. Two thousand seventeen a grand jury decided sided eleven men who fit the paragon profile should turn over their DNA to investigators. One of the eleven was Gary Shera Trooper. Pack went to was home. Shera wasn't there so pack asked his roommate to deliver a message. We have some important paperwork that we need to serve him. Here's my card. Please have them call me as soon as possible possible. No one had matched Shira's face to the sketch but sure his name wasn't new to detectives remember. Police looked into them in nineteen ninety three three months after Lisa was murdered Gary shares name. I was reported to the AGW on police department. By an attorney who is representing Gary's soon to the ex wife. Her name was Joyce Sheriff and she suspected that her husband murdered. There were a number of concerns that she had represented to her attorney that then got relayed back to us about his potential connection to this case one of her concerns was that he had an unusual interest in the case any time the news was on the body was found in his story. Came on officials. Say they've got several leads and are hopeful for break. In this case he would come running in from the the other room to see what was being said on. TV back then. He wouldn't talk to police and detectives were told. Joyce wasn't credible. They also received lots of similar calls. You had a lot of ex wives. Girlfriends seeking almost like revenge. Exact on their partners ex partners so the tip from Joyce's attorney went into the massive file along with all the others it went on like that for years. Investigators methodically following up on hundreds. It's of persons of interest. It wasn't until two thousand to ten years after Lisa's murder that sergeant FAO followed up on that tip and called Gary Shera in for an interview. What happens he's willing to talk this time in two thousand and two he's willing to talk We we we did a short interview with them with the hopes again. sample from him and he was cordial. He was polite. The detective brought up. Lisa's murder. Shera was bank. He danced around it in a sense. Like I think I remember that I think I remember reading about it in the paper and when the detective ask for DNA Sheera refused. What's what's your gut telling you that he's not willing to give up his DNA was well? It was it was odd but yet it wasn't because it's it's your constitutional right. Did that to give it and numerous people through the years refuse to give it now. His reasoning was odd. He stated he was inch afraid of cloning. That's got to be a new one. I for you. There was a first and last that made an impression on the detective but Shera had no no criminal record. No connection to Lisa. And there was no evidence linking him to her murder so Shera remained in their file and investigators again moved John Six years later in two thousand eight detective spoke to him again. The list is getting smaller and names are coming Back Cup again and Gary shares name comes back up become so let's let's try to get them back in again. Do you do the interview this time. I talked to him out in the lobby but I do not conduct the interview and and As we walked in he says I got no problem sitting and talking to people. But I'm not giving my DNA. And I was like that's fine. We just wanted to go over a few things with you. And in Put Him in the interview room to other investigators to interview this time it was reported. Investigators kept it friendly low. Oh cute hoping he changed his mind about the DNA. Sarah appeared relaxed even friendly. He was a very personable guy. Did you know that kind of instinct. Interesting articles out with newspapers you headlines Jeans anything like that. I saw. Aw while Sheriff said nothing about Lisa. He said plenty about his ex-wife. The Sheriff told them about his relationship with his wife her drinking problem and their acrimonious divorce and custody battle. was that just kind of a normal thing. I guess somebody venting about yeah. He was the ex husband. So He's not gonNA talk favourably with regards to the ex wife. The first time is your sense worries. How how would you say that? I really don't know that's shoot outs quarterbacks turning on courts as persons of interest in Anything jump out at you. He was afraid of the DNA. He would not touch anything. He kept his hands to himself. I mean to the point where he wouldn't even lean in you know it have any part of his poor sel touching the table except a drink of water. Though drinks the investigators instigators and came back with three bottles or water. You know I think that the hopes of if they started drinking he started drinking. I mean he pushed the Waterside. He just left it where the investigators you just put it on the table. Nine years after that interview trooper pack was standing outside. Shehri's door delivering the message to his roommate. Pack a cab no idea if sheriff would turn out to be. Lisa's killer or just another dead end coming up. A suspected expected killer. Friends never suspected just a regular everyday person and a musical clue. He had claimed that he had you purchased it in that shop. Hey It's Chris as you know sometimes it's good to just take a step back from from the day to day onslaught of news and take our broader. Look at the issues. That's what I'm doing each week. podcast why is this happening exploring topics ranging from school segregation to climate change. Well the way that I think of it is climate change will be to the twentieth century. What Madera West the nineteenth century? It'll be the central subject of questions about economic justice. Everything everything you care about in the world will be affected by climate and digging deep with guests uniquely qualified to analyze issues from mass incarceration to race relations. As you know for the first time in our history mystery at the national level whites are on the verge of losing their majority status in twenty years and I think it's no coincidence that our politics are getting more tribal. Join me for wisest is happening. New episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts After all these years investigators hope that Gary Shera would be forced to turn over his DNA. If it turned out that Shera really was the killer. He'd done a great job of hiding it. By all accounts scary lived in unremarkable life. He kept to himself. He worked a low profile job. He lived in a low profile location side from the months he was in Seattle. Shera lived most of his life near Agawam. He was shuttle car driver for rental car company. But in the past he'd also worked in bars and restaurants just a regular guy just a regular everyday person. Shero worked in Joe Stevens restaurant in the late nineties nineties after Lisa's murder. Joe New Sheriff's father. That's how we first met him. His Dad who's executive for a local company. Said I have but son. He says he's looking for a job. We'll set a by just a great handsome young man Very outgoing share also also had rave reviews from another restaurant so joe hired him. He was one of our dining manages for about two and a half years he was with us. Share got on well with with his customers. They enjoy them. It was very personable to everyone. Good conversationalist could talk big into sports. Love this sports and you know he could. He could converse with almost anyone not only did his customers take to him. Stevens daughters did to while they would play together. You know Gary would chase them around the dining room and there'd be giggling pick them up throw them up in the year but remember. There was a very different side to Gary Sharah. Tara if you believe his ex wife Gerry was a monster. Not only did she tell her attorney. She thought Gary Killed Lisa. She also told her siblings suggestion. Janice McDonald Janna says Joyce called her. The morning after Lisa disappeared and she told me Gary got home really late and he. You seemed really amped up. Any couldn't give her a definite answer where he was he kept saying Or just out. I was just out her her instincts were I think he was up to sell something. No good. She's convinced that he had something to do with the disappearance. I remember her. Anna tells me that night that he came home super duper late and they'll night is really kind of wild. I guess she knew that he was absent at approximately the time. That the murders happen. Joyce's attorney Kevin he'll eat. She knew that he came back with unexplainable cuts on his hands. Right after what turned out to be that the death of Lisa so again over a couple of weeks two or three weeks at all started coming together of maybe there actually is a link and there was more Jewish shared her suspicions about a gift she received from her husband a music box. She said he told her. It came from from Britney's gift shop was a little care. Sell Music box with a blue horse and Joyce love trinkets but she said that was the only trink at that. She never liked because she felt like it had something to do with Lisa's disappearance that stood out to her. He had claimed that he had purchased interested in that shop. Before the actual murder of Lisa and healing says Gary described the woman who sold them the music box. Well he he told Joyce as she told me that it was a little old lady grey haired which apparently doesn't fit an employee that was there. Were you able able to confirm that. It came from Britney's car shop. We were never able to confirm that. Definitively we wound up interviewing an employee who had worked at Brittany's card shop around the same time she she did say that this was consistent with the type of music box. That was sold at Brittany's at that time. So was that shares connection to Lisa. The detectives didn't know but even if it was is it wasn't enough if there were going to prove Gary Shera was Lisa's killer. They needed his DNA trooper. Pack who went to share his home to deliver court papers was waiting for him to call. Does he call now. The next thing that happened with Gary Shera was we had a surprise. visit at a state police barracks axeing Westfield coming up a special delivery. What are you thinking? I took a deep breath and my mind began racing and a suspected killer on the run. He just knew that this was the guy. Who's just that feeling? And you'd good when dateline continues Gary Sharon never never called Trooper Noah pack after the detective visited his home but what happened next was straight out of a cop show. Shares girlfriend showed up at the State Trooper Barracks Eric's the very next evening. She had a stunning story to tell them. She told us that she left early. In the morning to go to work. He was expected to leave after her to go to work. And when she she came home at the end of the day his personal belongings which he normally would have taken with him. We're on the counter. And she found the letters left behind for her. Those letters left detectives reeling and and crack the case wide open. There were three separate letters. One of them was essentially a confession. Letter the confession with staggering auguring. It said I abducted raped and murdered a young woman. Approximately twenty five years ago. I had no intention of killing her when I grabbed her butt. Events Spun Spun Out of my control. I have never regretted anything so much. Were you shocked by this. Yes we knew that we were going to solve this case with DNA match which we didn't expect to solve this case by Somebody Writing Confession Letters Shera outed. I hated what happened. I despised myself. I thought of turning myself in in hundreds of times over the years but I truly am a coward. Another letter was a last will and testament. He also left a apology. Letter for the Zieger family. It was short. I can never apologize enough for taking your daughter and siblings from you. He said I have regretted it and hated myself every day. A sense you read the letters he just do that. This was the guy it was just that feeling. And you've got you've been chasing an unknown attacker for decades for twenty five years and here we are with the state police in the state police barracks would these notes in front of us. It was a surreal feeling. was there one thing that stuck out from those notes. Aside from the obvious which is a confession violence he wrote in his note that he had been fascinated by certain types of violence For his entire life that stood out to us as being very unique. Doc I've never really been or even felt normal. He wrote from a very young age. I was fascinated by abduction and bondage could never keep it too far from my mind for long on that fateful day I let myself do something terrible. Did he say why now why Lisa the notes didn't say why he had chosen. Lisa has a victim. There was some indication that she was chosen. Perhaps to fulfill one of his fantasies that he hid clearly struggled with. Your must have dropped to say the lease I. I was at home and I received a phone call on my cellphone. What are you thinking? I gasped I I took a big deep breath and my my mind began racing. Then he received the letters on his cell phone. I got very emotional very excited and very hopeful that this was the moment that was gonna take this case in a different direction. Dozens of investigators had worked thousands of hours in sleepless nights. On this case after twenty five years we finally you know who did it and we just had to go out and get him. It was a race against time because in his confession letter Shera also wrote that he knew detectives were closing in on him. The state police were out the house with some important papers for me that will be a warrant to take DNA and that will send me away for life today. It will all end and I'll either take my own life. We're faced the music as it were. We'd find him for two reasons. The first is now. He's fleeing murder suspect and the second in his he was thinking about harming himself so we had to find him before he was able to end his own life as well so We started paying his phone and investigators located him down in Connecticut. It was almost ten at night four hours after reading those letters when police found shares car in a hospital parking lot they. I saw a suicide note on the dashboard of the empty car. The note read to whomever finds my body. I apologize for any psychological trauma incurred. You'd call mass state police thank you. It was an ominous. NOPE did it mean there would be no justice for Lisa coming up a race was on to catch a suspected killer before it was too late. Did someone find him in time and a long road owed finally reaches an end for a family and a detective picked up and put a car. Just shed Ed Don rushton pitch Police found Gary Sheriff's car in a hospital. A parking lot inside the car was a suicide note. There was nobody but investigators soon found Shera. He was in the emergency room he. He took a large quantity of over the counter pills. Did someone find him in time. He actually drove to the hospital in part. This car walked into the emergency room. Basically should we check in himself in while Shera was recovering in the hospital. Detective searches home even with that confession. They still needed his. DNA approval. Movie was Lisa's killer. They took his toothbrush and had it tested. The result came back the next day the lab representatives worked around the clock. Did you have your match Sean match when I got that call was unbelievable. It was Gary Sheriff's DNA at the Crime Scene The DA and his team delivered the news to D and George secret and their family. There was about six of them that came in to our kitchen. Did you faint. It is sat there like this and I went really. It spent twenty five and a half years it. It's Kinda like you're stunned. Stunned stunned is is the word and they're waiting for jump up and down. We're going the shoe good to be true. Exactly it's like after all this time it's really gonNA happen. I grew up in tyler vague. One diseases represent egg one and so to be able to say to them that we found on them. It was powerful September. Eighteenth two thousand seventeen. Da Gloomy made the announcement today. I am informing warming the public that the search for lease assailant is over. An arrest warrant was issued for Gerry e Shara in the twenty five year. Long search for answers is over. You know we. We waited for this day for a long time but it came. Did anyone at the press conference. No the name Gary Shera now our friend Gary did you do it. Kelly's a bigger thirds alleged. You did commit murder and aggravated rape and kidnapping now. He was behind bars. But despite the rock solid evidence against him his confession his DNA Gerry. Shera pleaded not guilty. The detectives had to get ready for a trial. After gregarious shares arrest. We had to essentially work the case backwards that meant travelling to the west coast where the sheriff had lived briefly after the murder. Were trying to create create. A picture of WHO GARY is and who Gary was before he was arrested. The detectives reviewed thousands of pages of court documents from the shares divorce Jason Custody case and discovered a remarkable statement from Joyce. She wrote Gary claim that he could only have sex with me if he was controlling was wearing his batman costume and held a knife to my throat. Gary has proven himself to be vicious and Mercilus an often sadistic at the time Shera denied it but decades later the similarity to Lisa's brutal death was eerie knife. Related Sexual violence was emerging as the theme in Gary Shares Relationships with women. Yeah and he had written twenty five years later. From a very young age I was fascinated by abduction an bondage. It's very possible that this was an expression of Gary's deviant fantasies that he wrote about in that letter as has Gary Shera languished in jail. Both sides got deep into trial. Perhaps but then a bombshell solloway where that you will truly the answer to the question the court of us. Hope you thank you. September two thousand nineteen almost two years to the day after Gary Shera pleaded not guilty. See to Lisa's murder. He was back in court this time acknowledging the mountain of evidence against him. Tell me in your home wars. Why we're we're here we're here to make changes to make a change of plea guilty? I understand yes. It was huge. Gary Shera was changing his plea to guilty. The zieger family was there to watch him do it as the proceedings began Deon Lynn. We're nervous us. There is a lot of anxiousness around the fact that until he actually said the words he can change his mind any moment. That was his right to do that. Finally they heard the words. They longed for sewer player pleaded guilty to murder in the first degree of Lisa's eager at correct that correct twenty seven years after Lisa vanished after de got the awful news on her front porch twenty seven years after the Adua Police Force got the case. Her family finally got justice. It was really good to hear him. Say the words that we we know that we've put him into jail for the rest of his life without chance for parole. Yeah it's like you're done you're done but one question lingered Shera never explained why he targeted Lisa. And I think we'd all like to know more about what happened in the store. Why Gary when in the store and why Lisa was chosen we can speculate? That is to what he went in there with the intentions of doing. But what matters. Is that the outcome resulted in. Lisa's death and it was a very violent crime. The estranged wife Gary Sheriff kind of the hero in this Gary's ex wife is definitely an unsung hero in this case if she had not made the initial show report to her attorneys with her concerns back in the early nineties. He might not have come up any other way. Sadly Joyce wasn't there she died in two thousand fourteen. My sister knew all along. You know she was unfairly painted as just you know personal struggles foles. That was just trying to blame as you heard her spirit. You were the twelve year old boy who followed this case and now more than two decades later near the district attorney who helps solve the case. Surreal just an incredibly gratifying moment. As I realize that this this was coming coming to an end and a very gratifying process To bring justice to the family there was one more ordeal for not that day after all the years of speaking out thanking law enforcement and rallying the community it was her turn to talk publicly in court about in her private pain. She is gone. I'll never hold her. Todd was her lacquer or shall important important stations would never guessed better we just. Can't we better. When does not get over the bridge leases friends were in court that day to Kim Murray? Do you still think about this all the time I do all the time now. I talked to her when I'm in the car going somewhere. Do you say to her. Or if I'm having a bad day you know. Just just talked her like she was there. You know she's with you with any of us. I think I really believe he was also there. What would you say to Lisa's family for standing by you when not everyone did and the rumors got really bad? It's a thank you and I just don't even know how much I appreciate them then. I can't to say when it was all over. Detective Wayne Macy who caught the case. The Day Lisa went missing man tried. It's so hard to push it over. The finish line. Had some business to take care of. I he went to the Zieger at home and we hugged him. We cry and we just talked about how great this was that had happened and that the guy was finally caught and I went to stop and shop picked up arose. Put it in a little wrapping and put a card on it. You just said Mesa. It's done Rushton fish and I put stone and it was done. The young woman with the cornflower blue is the dancer. The artist the teacher Lisa Zieger full of fun and laughter at peace. At at last I suppose I want people not to think of the horrible thing that happened to her. I want them to think of her is smiling smiling down on all of us and giving the joy that she shared when she was here. So that's what I want And that's all for this edition of Dateline. We'll see you again next Friday at nine eight central at of course I'll see you each each weeknight for NBC nightly news. I'm Lester Holt for all of us at NBC News. Good night the meet the press. Chuck Todd Cast. It's an insider's take on politics twenty twenty election and more candid conversations Sion's with some of my favorite reporters about things. We usually discuss off camera. Listen for free wherever you get your podcast.

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