10 Episode results for "Earl Van"
Zodiac Killer Revealed?
"Took what's up what's up. Hey Everybody Hey. Welcome to the new senator silhouettes featuring types out tasha pierce and we're GonNa talk off things crime and conspiracy related. Yes I rebranded. The show changed the name of the whole thing. Just took the whole goddamn thing off to back home way because I kind of had the cuff zone under to crime by the book I was feeling like I was being deceptive because I did want to talk about books but then I realized I WanNa talk about everything else too. I also WANNA apologize for my absence. I have been absent because I was sick as a dog and can't prefer certain say that it was corona virus. Because you know here in the United States if we don't test it that means they didn't have it right well. I wasn't allowed to get the test because my symptoms were not The most severe but what I did feel like is I had one of the worst flus ever a lot of coughing. A lot of body aches a lot a lot a lot of fatigue so I slept for days. But I'm I'm back. I might not be one hundred percent because I still have like a lingering cough but I'm I'm well enough to come here and share a story in the story. This week is the most dangerous game. Yes yes yes was Karen I have finally gotten to the book slash Docu series. That you and I have been talking about for at least a month speaking of Ms Karen. I'd like to thank her and a few other people for checking in on me while I was sick. We're going to start it off with Sharon. H thank you so much for your review. Share IN H NARES. Rene g thank you. So much for your review lender who is? She's been with me so we got Linda Karen. Sarah those are my faithful fuel and you can be a part of the faithful few too because you know they make themselves very known they are supporting now sinister silhouettes and then there's one de Niro Jay. I'll see you lurking girl. Come out of the shadows so with that might think you own minute. Theme Song Manute theme song is by my Kid Queen Bee and it's a breezy. Beat so thank you so much to my son for providing me a new intro music and with that being said let's get into the most dangerous animal of all Earl van best. Junior was twenty seven years old when he met Judy Chandler. Thirteen at the time. It was October nineteen sixty one and they were in front of an ice cream shop in San Francisco. Now he became fixated on the team but Van. Bass knew he was far too old to be trying to court. Judy worse she had a less than ideal. Home Life Her father was said to be abusive which made her a prime target for a guy who knew how to say all the right things van best dead continue his pursuit and the two began sneaking the C one another for months the couple however was soon found out and the whole city was disturbed to know a pedophile operating in grooming. Young girls in their area with that revelation. Van Best In. Judy ran away together and eventually eloped in Reno Nevada now. This illicit relationship was tabloid news in the sixties in July of nineteen sixty. Two van best ended up behind bars. For statutory rate the marriage was annulled in Chandler was sent to a juvenile facility in February of nineteen sixty two true perversion prevailed in Van Best Gut Chandler to run off with him again this time to Mexico while they're chandler became pregnant in van best began to show his true colors. He was having problems holding down a job because he's a piece of shit so according to Judy. He asked her to turn tricks while she was pregnant. Before the baby was born the couple continued to elude the law. They made stops in California and finally settled in Louisiana for a while. Judy was all alone when she gave birth to. Earl van Doren best junior on February twelfth nineteen sixty three when she was just fifteen years. Old Van Best was not going to win father of the year when the baby was born in fact he would routinely lock the crying child in a footlocker. That just sounds absurd because at some point this motherfucker gotta go to sleep right. He would've wanted to sleep. He'd been wearing footlocker upside his head in me and the baby would have been gone. But that's me. Jody did everything she could to protect her son and she considered leaving van best because of his complete this interest in the baby and his constant abuse of her. She got in contact with her mother. Who allegedly told her that she could come home but the baby couldn't come with her. Their son was one month old. When van best announced that the baby had to go he grabbed the baby jumped on a train from New Orleans to Baton Rouge Jr and around eleven thirty. Am Van Best. Found himself at seven thirty six north boulevard where he entered the building with the baby in came out without him. Baby van best had been abandoned in spear will of a building by his father. He was found by a woman about five hours later. Help on finding out van best really did get rid of her baby. Judy film the strength to leave. The pedophile caught the authorities on judy and see was promptly arrested. Of course she had dirt on him as well so he ended up back in slammer also now. The whole saga was con constantly. Reported on by San Francisco Media Most giving lead by Paul Avery at the San Francisco. Chronicle poor baby was adopted into a very loving family. Lloyd in Leona Stewart remained infant Gary Stewart and treated him as their own but their son still wanted to know who he was in where he came from the ice cream. Romance as this was dubbed could be a true crime episode all by itself but today it serves as a prelude to a possible conspiracy to cover up the identity of one of the most notorious serial killers of all time in his quest to find his birth mother. Gary Stewart believes he stumbled upon the name of the Zodiac now Zodiac killer has been covered extensively in episodes of well-known podcast on documentaries and even on the big screen most recently in two thousand seven's Zodiac which starred Robert Downey junior mark. Ruffalo N Shake Jilin Hall. Now I'll eventually tell the entire story of the murders committed by Zodiac in another episode. Because today I want to give my full attention to Gary Stewart in his journey after years of both of them searching Gary and his birth mother found one a mother she was. Judy Guilford formerly Chandler. As one could imagine Gary had many questions for his birth mother but it seemed like she couldn't give him all the answers he had hoped for. He did find out this. She never meant to give him up now. That may have been somewhat of a relief or Gary. Finding out that his mother did love him in when he heard what his father had done. He initially had no desire to find out where he was in time. However curiosity and that incomplete feeling washed over him again he wanted to meet the man who abandoned him all. Those years ago he felt a need to clear the air now. Judy was a big help to gear. Because she had connections in law enforcement her second husband. Rotate Gilford was a cop in San Francisco before his death in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight through her connections with the police. Gary was provided with his father's name date of birth and social security number. Now according to Gerry after getting that information the police became hesitant. Give him any other leads. Pertaining to Earl Van Best Gary had enough info to discover that he had siblings on father's side of the family who lived in Austria when he reached out to them. They politely declined to provide any details about dear old dad except that he abandoned their family years ago. Now after that rejection Gary decided he would call off. Its search one day while watching TV Gary in his son. Zack were floored by what they saw. On cold case files a police sketch of the Zodiac killer from nineteen sixty nine with on the screen Zach remarked that this guy bore a striking resemblance to Gary Carey. Thought he looked like someone else entirely. He went with folder of research on his birth. Father then took out a photo and could not believe his is. He was looking at a face from that era. That matched the sketch. From that moment on Gerry dug up everything he could on the Zodiac. He claimed that he had proof that van. Best movements. In the late sixties early seventies lined up with the murderers perfectly. He said he could trace his father's involvement with Anton. Levay hit of the Church of Satan. Which I don't understand how that ties into this but also Charles Manson and he also had proof that Earl van best father was a code breaker who exercised his sons brain by challenging him to solve cryptograms. Now it was well known that the Zodiac like to use ciphers encrypt does to taunt the police and Public Kerry also claimed that. Earl van best name was hidden in one of those ciphers van. Best had a grudge against Paul Avery. From the San Francisco Chronicle for his embarrassing coverage of the Ice Cream Romance Avery turned out to be the only journalist receive a personal threat from the Zodiac. Gary also dug up judy in earls marriage certificate. He found a handwriting analyst who ascertained the writing on that certificate matched the handwriting of Zodiac at Gerry also submitted a DNA sample that he says indicates he shares genetic markers with DNA from a stamp that was used on a letter sent to newspapers by the Zodiac. There were more claims made by steward. This seem to point to the fact that Zodiac was indeed Kerry's biological Father Earl van best so if Gary has all this circumstantial evidence that points directly to his father. Why would the police not consider his research to close this ice cold case? Gary submits that the San Francisco police in clear including Judy Gilford's deceased husband rotator bungled the investigation. They had allegedly interviewed van. Best and Guilford noted that he was the pedophile who had kidnapped abuse and impregnated his now wife for some reason the case was botched in buried. Because of this now if this was true not only had Gary Unmasked Zodiac but he also stumbled upon one of the biggest cover ups ever. The police may have ignored gears. Findings but Susan Mustapha. A true crime. Author found them to be intriguing. She and Gary Poured over all his research and before. You know it. She was set to co author. A book with him. This story was sure to make shit load of money because everyone who was about this true crime life wants to know the identity of the Zodiac of course armchair detectives around the country. Were all pissed off because every good whip web sleuth has their own theory about the Zodiac. So the community mostly dismissed. Gary's claim because it didn't line up with their own speculations. I myself would be thrilled to know who this fucker is. Just like I was when the world found out that Joseph di Angelo is allegedly the golden state killer. And I can't wait till that bastard pleads guilty so acura moved that lately. But I digress. What happened after the book was published in Two Thousand Fourteen Duh? It became a New York Times bestseller. That's all and it has a rating of four point. One out of five on Amazon's reviews and just like the true crime community in general. The reviews were pretty divide. A user named Toubro to shop. Wrote five out of five stars will done. I could not put this book down the whole story so well written in put together. I am completely convinced that Earl van Best Junior Zodiac killer. I did not think that I would be so thoroughly convinced. I am really surprised that so many people are being critical are being critical about the lack of evidence back in the day and even now without DNA. Many cases are one. If you have enough convincing circumstantial evidence nowadays most of us prefer DNA or both but honestly just comparing his picture to the sketch and taking into account the unique scar on his finger which matched a fingerprint left behind from one of the Zodiac crime scenes was huge. Now the very very next review was from Chardonnay mcdaniels and it read one out of five stars. Where the facts? Highly questionable claims. It lacks significant evidence. All the victims look like mom. I don't see it fan. Best Junior photo in the sodium sketch. Many people could have been seen as being reported bearing a resemblance to sketch. Perhaps there is something to handwriting but too small of a sample of Earl van best juniors writings in my opinion to give so much potential of a match even from a professional lastly no DNA test. That's like in caps known. Dna tests and the ciphers seems that many people have found various names with no definitive answers with confidence so despite varying opinions the book was a huge success and earlier this year fx in. Hulu teamed up to give us a four part Docu series that takes a deep dive into the life of Gary Stewart. Who is an adoptee who needed to find himself? And the research he'd be it that apparently uncovered Zodiac it was directed by Academy Award nominee Keith. Davidson and Ross. Diner Stein. And of course they were very committed to shutting positive light on Gary but also to explaining the truth so we met law enforcement. Officers are the handwriting analyst. Susan Moustapha Judy Gilford who is now estranged from her biological son after. He wrote that book without giving her a heads up and so many more people who Gary says substantiate his story the series was well done and I found myself wondering if this was it had the Soda Yak Finally Been Name Sadly it appears he has not the documentary fairly laid out Gary's evidence and told his story of searching for his identity and it shed light on the struggles of many adoptees who have little to no knowledge of who they are made me. Scratch my head and ponder whether there was a conspiracy to keep Zodiacs identity a secret. It made me look forward to the final episode. Aptly titled The truth. We learned Gary Stewart was an unreliable narrator and it finally revealed enough truth to make me doubt not only Gary Story but his motivation. It seems that Gary saw that sketch on cold case files and immediately became married to the idea that his dad was a serial killer. Now all the evidence he found was carefully manipulated to his narrative. Yes Earl van. Best resembled the sketch but real talk half of the white guys. In his documentary resembled the sketch certificate was filled out by the judge presiding over his parents marriage not by van best. The handwriting analyst who definitively said certificate was filled out by the Zodiac was debunked by his own peers the DNA Gerry submitted was never matched against the known sample of the Zodiac. All of the evidence that placed van best in areas that Zodiac was known to be in was stretched by geary to fit times and Dates Susan Moustapha and Gary turned on one another each blaming the other for failing to check and double check the facts surrounding the case. Gary accused his biological mom of selectively forgetting details of her life van best. And if she did. Could you blame her? I mean she was a real victim of Van. Best also final episode was Real Shit. Show thus I spent four hours watching this show and the only thing I'm sure of is that Gary Stewart was obsessed with the thought that Earl van best less Zodiac killer. An obsession is one of those things that lets you. See what you want to see. Gerry needed his biological father to be a monster. It would explain why he took him to seven thirty six North Boulevard in left him in a stairwell. It would explain why he never looked for him. It would validate his worth if the person who threw him away was a fucking murderer but even if van best is not the Zodiac. He was a terrible person. If this only crimes were against Judy and Gary that qualifies him as a Shitty individual and city individuals deserve shitty endings. Earl van best got his. He died in Nineteen ninety-four choking on his own vomit in a bar in Mexico City. And that's according to Stewart. Of course he was buried in an unmarked grave where Gary and his sons were. The first visitors shit happens to Shitty people. That's it that's all the most dangerous animal is finally in the books. So what do you think of Gary Story also who is your favorite Zodiac suspect. Let me know I'm still at? Tc BY TB on all the things including my blog at TC by TB dot com where you'll find sources and shit. There's also a little donate button in case you were so inclined and my email is still. Tc BY TB Edgy. Mail DOT COM. If you like to catch up with me that way. I can't wait to Holler at you know next week until then stay out of the shadows piece.
TRUE CRIME: MYSTERIES BEYOND THE VEIL: GUEST BLUE MOON SESSIONS /ZODIAC KILLER
"Love radio own some sort of Team missed one nine Put fear into from l. dollars Independence and contacts sabrina. School nine psychic. Fair Good evening happy. Tuesday and welcome to another edition of true crime mysteries beyond the veil. This is your host jimmy skinner. And my co host val evans. Colonel astrologist is celebrating. Her mother's birthday. She will join us later so huge. Happy birthday to mama vow and we will also be welcoming our special guest. Johnny haney from blue moon sessions. Oh what i have found so interesting about Johnny with his balloon sessions. He reaches out and helps people where they have lost a loved one to get messages and So we'll just go over that information with him. We're gonna wait for him. So what. I'd like to talk about tonight jew is last week. I want to apologize to the girls from transcendent. Our they will they follow our show now. They're brand new show at nine thirty. Pm and it's a great group of young ladies that go over there adventures on their college. Campus they are. They also go on paranormal expeditions. And it's a great group great energy so welcome them to the riff radio family. I stick around after this. Show there on at nine thirty and you can also catch them live on facebook. Then they simulcast on blog talk but they're also live on facebook so you can go to the rift radio network facebook page and that's something that balan. I are also working on doing so. We should have that probably at the end of october. We will also go live on facebook if you wanna call in and talk to me Our number is three three eight seven. Oh three eight seven seven. Dial one let me know that you wanna talk and welcome johnny haney. Hey how's it going. How are you. I was just explaining everybody to everybody. What you do with your blue moon sessions in a she vows. Mom vows mom's birthday so she i know. She sent me a picture of the cupcakes and they were the gourmet cakes. I know wow. It's just not fair. not fair our you. How was your did. You have a good week. I so far. I have It was a busy weekend. I did those six sessions back-to-back I've never done then. They're when they're like back to back like that. I say what prayer and just start doing sessions like anthon van but right now. I mean as much as i've listened The responses are still as great as they always are Even if i'm just doing one by itself knows so that's good So i know we gonna talk about zodiac I did listen to one response. you're gonna love it so let's see here we go ahead and mention it so My especially this weekend. It was on zodiac so i decided i was going to go ahead and take a chance to see becky contact in or you know. See what my you know. Come of it and So i found three of the prime suspects. It i found off. Google right author lee allen earl van junior and louis myers right and he said okay so i wanna say your names one by one and you say yes if your names associated with this odor yak so here we go and i can't wait the post once i'm finished but i see that arthur truly allen and the response was john's got skill. That's why i've been laughing on that one. Yeah and then on the second one. I said earlier invest junior. He said that's it he can kill also and then on louis myers is it. Turn it off. i'm guilty. No way yes. Turn it off. I'm guilty yes. Well now i'm gonna read you For those of you don't know who the zodiac killer was. He was in the late Early seventies but i was little. I was listening nine ten. I don't remember this zodiac killer. So i did not follow you. Know that was also in california. We didn't have social media back if we didn't see it walter cronkite. It's six o'clock we didn't know about it and that's how we got the news back then but he admitted to killing thirty seven people but they the law doesn't say that law enforcement accounts for nine. Now i could have that wrong. Because i did not study desert rat killer until i got clues and correctly. Correct me if i'm wrong. But he targeted couples seems it. Seems like yeah. Yeah well there was yeah differs with. What was it the riverside that was just that lady right i a woman yes and then also hit. The last one was a taxi driver. Yeah the target evansville. Yes and good evening. I guess he's joining us. Johnny foul made it. Oh okay we're howard great. Just oh they were amazing amazing. You can't go wrong with cupcakes. And the birthday celebration. So yeah so. But they were the gourmet cupcakes. Yes so good so yeah. We had a great time. We had a great time. But i'm sorry. I missed the first few minutes what's happening. What are you talking about. We are trying out the zodiac killer timing about zodiac at killer but and then we're going to just go into more about what johnny does with with his sessions but we were talking about the zodiac killer. I was little going on. I don't remember but okay but then again remember we got the news by walter cronkite. Six o'clock that's it. I member him so You know you and it was on at six o'clock. The only thing. I remember as a little girl is at the end of every broadcast. He would give the number of casualties in vietnam. That's all i really. Yes yes yes. Remember that the numbers. I don't remember kid and Jr and this is completely off the subject but as a kid i remember jr was shot. And i was so young. I thought it was the actual president so everybody was like going crazy about it and i had no idea what was going to was remember. You know the funny thing with the zodiac killer is that i didn't really study him and they got the clues. I remember johnny. I don't know if you have this when you're doing sessions but when you're doing what i do Serial killers have a different. I don't know if you call it a vibrational level. They have a different. It's a different perfect and he area. Yeah when i was looking at the letters today what the stereo or desert killer talk to the police he sent out he would kill and then he spent eighteen letters to local media stations and they were in drifted codes. He demands that they print them right. The more i looked at those letters to sicker. I got to my stomach so it reminded me that Serial killers have a different energy. I can't describe it. I don't i think they're very clairvoyance. I think they know when you're in their personal space. I think so too. 'cause i was thinking about him the other day in the bathroom before i started doing my sessions and there was a male standing in my bathroom door just for i mean it. Was you know how it is when when when you get a glimpse of them but yet you look and they're not there and you told me feels in now i can't i i say this one was that least my height little chevy but it was definitely in my doorway And you know we were talking about the other day. We're getting signs a number thirteen well. The number thirteen is all around the socio with the zodiac because of When i was watching the documentaries and staff there were talking about the the thirteen moon calendar In how he would kill the dalai day Like that and i'm thinking about those. And that's when i noticed that there was a male presence in there just first second can't say it was him but you know usually happens to me. What had happened is a friend of mine. Who is a very skeptic. He always tests me and one time he said give me clues for the zodiac killer. At the time. I didn't even really know who the zodiac killer was and i said well he's in a wheelchair and he's there's something wrong with his hands right now and they're shaking but he has a daughter that visits him but he's very alone and he's he's in a wheelchair and looks like he's looking out into clip on the ocean. Like i didn't at the time. I thought well he's alive but you know he could have very well been dead but the clues that i got today now. If you guys have studied him i'll run over 'em quickly. Tell me if any of these things ring a bell with desert rat killer. Because we're going to investigate. More when i got a time stamp that i'm gonna use while you're talking. It's july this nineteen july nineteen sixty-nine twelve forty eight and and it was one of the crimes. Take me home and Let's see we move what we get. Cms got a small white house in a red rug was on the porch was and it was a small very small homes. Very stuck together. Close together lived alone. I got priest as a clue there also a desk. Everything in this desk was in like burgo order. And i love virgos that everything has its place. There was a white. I wanna say like a handkerchief or oily over a gun and then I'm freaking out. Looney i'm totally freaking out with what you're saying. Because can i mark on your. Do i have to tell you that. I just pulled a chart as you said that about virgo. Five planets in virgo or planets in virgo. And they're all in the six house. astrologers would laugh because the houses no how very interesting this is one of the most. Oc burgo types. I ever seen where if something was moved out of the drawer. All hell would break loose. I mean you could see him taking his hands and if any little piece of paper was out of line he would move it back very weird. I'm not saying that burgers burgers are weird. But this is a very i very extreme. And let's see what else. I got lovers lane very alone. Nelson the daughter this something about a daughter military and he told i can hear him telling people he he was a writer. That's a good clue. I think that if you're if you suspect somebody and then all of a sudden oh. I write very weird very very weird clues as weird. Yeah very weird. Well what else. I can so cool about the virgo. Yeah i can also probably support the writing too. Because the in the chart that i have the lord of libra is venus and that's representing the Serial killer or the killer in this house. it's in the second house and aspects Jupiter can be A writer but another thing that aspects jupiter is mercury in the third house in in gemini which is a triple confirmation that we've got a writer involved so that And the other thing is what's weird is we have the south node which looks like horse shoe and these charts and sometimes that shows something that was left behind oregon. Show the truth and so. I am in jupiter's right next which means a lot. So this man. It seems as if he wants to write something about the truth he he's got to get some kind of information out and i guess that would make sense with all of the letters that he wrote. Which but but it doesn't. It's sort of like his truth. It's not actually reality So there's a lot of different aspects here One is it's interesting. You know we talked about marilyn monroe and how whenever we see mars next to neptune. Neptune is water. Mars is something sharp and two can also mean like poison to so it can show like a needle or can show boat. Neptune is water and mars. Control motor sh so he and it's it's act it's aspect thing Those virgo planet so jobs show that maybe maybe he worked on a boat jobs. There's something that has to do with the six house which is work. And then it aspects that mars neptune energy which could be a boat so that could be a clue to something that has to do with The boat or mars red neptune as water. Something that's called red water that could be a coup here where railroad red rug right. Oh my gosh. And right and mars opposes venus venus presents rug so that could be that could also be really value. The the rug it seems might not have been achieved. Broke could have been something of value So that's interesting. Writing really comes through with this chart. You are also cool delivery driving a van delivery person. I don't know why i don't but we need to look at the guy. Johnny in your session tell vow. He did a session vow with three of the people of interest percent interest when things sessions. Okay so first of all. I don't really have a voice for the zodiac. I don't know what he sounds like. But i went and found for that They guy called in nineteen sixty nine on the radio on the abc news right. Yeah i used. I used his voice. Okay so i chopped it up and everything and reversed it and chopped up. And that's what i used. As i call it like guess his 'cause anyway is what i run through the portal and Was all chopped up it's gibberish. You can't understand anything so I have got to review everything. But i went and tried to hurry up so i could do this for the show and i mean i. Yeah reverse i mean. Read the first Response that got so used I've found three names. The process suspects was author. The allen earl. Van best junior and louis myers so what i did was i did a prayer and i said i wanna say these names one by one and its associated with the zodiac. Say yes okay so I can't post you still going through. Because here's response. I said. Arthur leigh allen said johnny scott skill I let on that one and the earl van best junior and it said that he can kill also which maybe think there was two killers. I don't know why. And then i said louis myers turn it off. I'm guilty. Wow maybe we could look at the clues and the chart and look at louis c. If that man remember the chart can show a name and what you do is you look at the. There's a point on the charts called the ascendant and that's in everybody's chart it's usually a description of what you look like and what your name is your name. Sounds like so. What i would do is i would look at the chart and i would just kind of get an idea. Like for instance With the ascendant being in aries that might be germany or it might be an aries related. Name it could even be something. That's like a famous Like washington so like I don't someone more meals someone in the military like a military mean but But in this chart That's really actually. I made a mistake. The ascendant is really for the victim but if we can get some aspects from his ruling planet that touched the ascendant it still shows The the suspect's name or the killer's name I am let me see. Let me see who the victim was for this chart. This was Second there were there were so many murders And he liked to show up on like roads and kill like the these couples right. But in this case The it was on july fourth nineteen sixty nine darlene. Farren and michael mcgeough drove in to the blue rock springs park and delay hill four miles from lake herman road and parked well. A couple sat insurance car. Second car drove into the lot and parked alongside them but almost immediately drove away returning about ten minutes later. The second car parked behind them driver of the second car then exited the vehicle approaching the passenger side door of parents. Car carrying a flashlight and a nine millimeter. The killer directed the flashlight into macos and barron's is before shooting at them. Firing five times both victims were hit and The killer walked away from the car but upon hearing goes moaning returned and shot each victim twice more before driving off so at at twelve forty that evening or early morning the police department gotta call. And that's what the charity. That's the chart drew. The the caller took credit for the murders of johnson and faraday six and a half months earlier and they. The police trace the call to the phone booth at a gas station at spring road and too long located about three tenths of a mile from film and only a few blocks from the police department. So so it's interesting. That areas is Is the ascendant there. And what was the name of the one that you think. Is that the actual killer johnny. Oh louie when that's louis myers is said. Turn it off healty. that's hard. That's a hard one to find in a louis. Well that could be a. Who is it can be louis. Oh gosh i don't know what was the last name. Myers in wha or es myers. So then what what i would do is. I would. google m. y. r. e. s. And i would. I would find out more about the Mean meyerson like the history of it. It's a german or german origin. So there we go. That was our clue. it's aries. It can show not only the victim's name but it can show the The the killer's name as well depending on the aspects and here you can see that the suspect named goes to to aires. Well i think we should look at louis then and see if any of this stuff matches it would be so interesting if lewis house. I know right Really myers they all look alike. They look at the pecci he just died in two thousand sixteen There you go. Well oh god. It's hard to tell. I think that's like a killer. It looks like a sweet old man well when he was in a nursing home so we can trace back to see. If louis was in the nursing. Home have k- that'd be that'd be easy to mind. Oh interesting or just slough theme. Yes not ack. there's enough out there louis. Meyer louis lives admits to being zodiac killer. That was in two thousand fifteen. I guess he died a year after that. Are you serious. Yep it says myers contest to his friends twice. Once in the seventies and once after he was diagnosed with stirs deliver in an early two thousands homebuyers of several yep myers several links to the zodiac killer victims. He went to the same high school and worked at the same places. The zodiac killer. Stop sending letters for a period of time myers within the army and stationed in military there. We and every clue yes. So so you're telling me when he said turn it off i'm guilty. Uh you're right. That's yeah well. I didn't turn it off. Ask for what what questions you know what you can have this louis guy if he lived in a small white house ask the name of the street. can raise it back on google earth. We can sloughs good view. I'll i will put up lose and we'll put up your sessions and the chart. What a fun thing to put up during october spooky october and no. I didn't wanted to do this one more. I'm gonna do the by the this was like Flatow yet oh. Yeah because i mean. I don't even know that. I could get from the puerto. I knew it but we're going to. We should do though. I can put this up on my site to. We'll get more clues like you say on. We myers as far as what we know. And then we'll see what we see in the chart that'll be good and then we'll come back and compare notes and go. Are you kidding me bud. We still do that all the time. It's quite folk. A lotta john. All the is out there and we'll a lot of time. All the information is already out there and we figure it out and then we then we stay at all already. They're just like we today. So it's impossible to know every case right and you know. I don't wanna know i don't want to do anything except a picture and name. He's i don't wanna be you know. Sometimes you don't know. Is this logic or is this intuition. So you don't know what you're getting in that word for you. I just sit down and go okay. And it started talking and say what they want to see if you have to have that gift to be able to attract them and get them there. I couldn't in say start talking. I would just get nothing. so so. that gift is seen gave him his you it was. I think it's definitely a a clairvoyant gift for sure. I just didn't know how to define it. You know well. We test out the speaker. Box i want. Can we do like a demo. One week where we'll tell you ahead of time something and then you can. Can you actually do it on the air i could do it on air It's not like you'll. I mean sometimes you'll understand what it's saying in person right the last times you gotta listen to that response maybe three or four or five times to actually kinda get it processed. Because that's fast sometimes. Yeah sometimes it's a slow it down just a little and just to kind of catch it But yeah Because i do the end of the people you know. And sometimes they catch they understand what's being said and i don't know it's just depending on the. Yeah we definitely try late. Could you do it and and go through it and no and figure it out and then we play it on. The air would the interesting. How about we do this. I will try to 'cause i feel guys don't mind It being under. I can stream it to where i can bring you guys in kind of like zoom sure. And then i'll have a camera on the the portal. Then of course. I'll be there and then have you guys there and then we can try to send the link that everybody can come in and and or the livestream anyway and can see and watch and then we could do it that way. Well i'm voting for princess diana one day. That's my number one idea. I wanna know one where it was. The clue that we got with diana who was the guy the boyfriend. Oh no she didn't like dhoti. It was the guy she had owner with rich. It's great she was talking about him. And i see i'd have to look up my notes. I can't remember. give it asking about the real boyfriend. We got the real boyfriend. Johnny not to jody was not boyfriend. Wow because she it. Was the french name. Well in the chart clearly shows who killed her Right of course we don't want to say that we don't want everybody's guessing we're joshua how us how. How did you know that you had this gift. When i mean were you born with this okay. So well With house growing up. I witnessed all kinds of stuff right like i said before just You see spirits. I guess smell things that weren't there Here things that weren't their voices and stuff but when it comes to the portal Knowing about this gift. I did not know i had this gift until i got I don't know just popped in my head to build myself a portal. So i started building. It and i saw were You know Josh hope paranormal and huffed they've using reverse speech but it was all chopped up and then and it seemed to get better responses. Just use leka recorder and stuff. And i'm like well you don't let it. I'm just gonna try. This probably not gonna get anything. 'cause it's really hard for me to believe this right now. You know and So i did my first session. With sam rayburn chopped up his voice rent it backwards through the portal and only allowed audio in out of the speech. Your went after asked a question. And i asked questions that i knew the answer to to see what he would say and he responded very intelligently is if we were having a face to face conversation and i mean i was. Ford and excited wasn't scared. I was just like this is like beyond belief Then i You know do another one from my mom. My mom came through and really got excited. And then i did my best friend. Connect with his dad passed away. That was one of the most amazing experiences ever had in my life because at that table would it was just me my best friend his mom and his grandson and we were trying to reach his dad. Now we have used my best friend's voice okay. Chopped up to try to reach his dad because we didn't have his dad's voice but there's a connection. Okay there's a connection there. Basically doing this use the voice. You're giving them a voice box back right. It has their sales frequencies. Okay a connection but it's all chopped up so you're any words it come out man is is actual spirit. So as we're sitting there he was coming through so clear that they even understand him and he started going she. The mom started feeling cold chills and their hair started standing up and she said oh my gosh temperatures changing and i said oh and all of a sudden they came. She says moving over to my left side which was towards me. It went through me to my arm all the way around the table to my best friend james and it started going up his legs and arms and due to the grandson and everybody feel the cold air and the and the hair standing up and then i said i asked his dad. I said what was that. He started laughing. You said you liked it. What again flowing. Yeah i mean what a blessing to give to a family wondering had such guilt you know why because he had actually He was barbecuing you know. And he accidentally well he used diesel and it blew up on him so yes it was. It was very tragic accident And it took a while to get him out and so he was on life support so they had to you know make that call to take him off so they live with their guilt for. Yeah three years you know. After that session. I mean they just that huge weight was off. Isn't that wonderful. I and we you know we have experienced that with Charts and clues with With families we're we're there. We're there was guilt. And then they found out something differently had happened and i mean it's it's very nice you know they've got closer it does change and it helps them and i think yeah that's amazing and i think it especially helps with suicides because people don't are very leery they don't know what happened to their loved one with the suicide and it's just this peaceful dealing or talking or communicating with the suicide victim as opposed to any other person passover. Absolutely there's god's as throw them away absolutely no they know that hells people and it helps people. Because there's a big misconception of of suicide and we're what happens to the two that soul and there is peaceful and i think that's very comforting for people and i i'm i don't make that up i am not gonna ever lie to a family nine. Yeah i mean. I think it's wonderful what you do. It's very clear i love that. I love the joy is me like i never felt joy like that. You know for for doing that for them. Oh and then the spirits for telling me you know thank you for. They've told me to say my sessions. Thank you for this miracle They sit. can't you see this as a miracle for johnny. You know things like that. Do the box. And i'm just like you know i was speechless. And you don't have quite a lot as many sessions made metalized. What that to prepare. Do you do a protection or Asked for permission to come into their space. Oh yes good question. Well okay so. I wrote down this prayer. But you know that way i could. I think there's a formula to it. But basically i just I started out with you. Know asking god that If he had if he if he has to give permission that's how it works. They would he. Please give permission for those fears to come forth and and answer the questions that Their family members are seeking or wanting to ask and to talk to me and then the loud this guys in there ascended masters and the angels to come down and help us communicate and then i go right into You know ask them to be surrounded by light and protection during the session. No negativity only positive. And then i go right into saying Which is the last part of the for asking the spirits that they have free. Will you please come forward. And answer the questions that your loved ones had and that i have and to give them closure and hope and shows them love and let them know you're still okay and then you know. Of course i run into like you know ended with jesus name amen and then i started my session. Yeah i only for permission as well always always have i. I think that we're in their space and It's very respectful. I i would never do without asking Right and and you will you know. And it's like you want to track the positive and the good entity that i think it's wonderful. I love it. And i love what we did with the zodiac killer. What i always has great questions um zodiac. But they'll go very well. How long have you been doing this and do you sense that this could at some point be a lot. More popular with law enforcement are people who are not so spiritually inclined. I will say that. I've been doing this for six months. And everyone says that. I i've i've done. Yeah every one of these stations. I've done for my My clients or whatever every response has been validated by them. That that's their loved one. That's their personality. That's exactly what happened or or that's that's exactly you know. All the responses are validated. Okay so i've had none of them say though that didn't that's not right. That didn't make sense. I might have something. Come through. The i don't understand and they don't understand that a few days later they're calling me back or texted me back going. Oh my god. I figured it out and stuff right. Yeah and then and So amazing and then So like i said three days before cabbies body was found. Okay i Decided to see if i can try to. Maybe try to something that would help. Try to locate her. So i did a session on her. And there's a lotta stuff. I cannot post I feel very strongly about my stuff. Because i've everything's been pretty accurate so i felt so So positive about what. I was getting that idea. Report it to the fbi. Okay oh wow. But i'm not sure they would even look at it but i don't know okay i do. I did hear that. The the law enforcement will take mediums. Worse fiercely than me. I but i don't know but at least i i got this stuff off my chest instead of holding it and saying what if you know. I don't want to hold the stuff and know this stuff and you still mad about areas. I need to let somebody know you know. So i went that. Can you can you share. What is that. can you share it. All what you said to them to Think can you describe it like where he prompt really. Not until the official word comes out right. I mean i will say that if the with was mentioned Okay yeah i. I always assumed that she was strangled. Well there's a possibility that was in there too. But in my sessions. I was just getting You know getting things like for instance that she She got dizzy. And we'll hit her knees Camps you went down okay And then. Brian was close by That he he promised to leave her with the pounded head okay. I don't like that one but she said he made him her response. Exactly was he made me a brilliant promise to leave me with a pounded head. That's all. I can say more. Because i did a session on him. He said to which goes with what she said. Which is okay so this stuff is too. I gotta do something so you know right. So i'm hoping that because i work in on another cold-case C mo maddie madeline Rory can't their door like that. okay somebody else. Yeah and getting some pretty pretty awful stuff. It's like makes the heart on that. Does that would you say that. Your you'll chop up the sound or the voice of someone. Is that almost like that. That's what's supposed to attract spirit basically. It's a connection. Because i it's it's more rick More of a Trying to think of a way to say this it was he wishes to get a spirit talk right but if i wanted to talk to my mom can use other voices to try to get her but it makes it more personal. I've got his voice but somehow another it seems. Yeah seems there's more of an attachment to their voice their frequency of their voice. It makes sense. And so usually i just use like a two or three minute clip. That's all it takes. And i lose it. What okay. what the year. I'm box is almost like a trans medium and Summer bacon is an excellent trans medium. Where the So the spirit that she uses comes in and actually uses her voice box So that portal is almost like a voice box to help them and naval speech correct. Yeah right and i guess they kind of go through me and then there's the portal. I don't know how it works but Or me just knowing when to turn let the audio in because it's just a feeling or knowing and then every time i turn the knob. It's it's a word that's just so interesting. I know that would be cognizant. Cognizant is knowing just a gut feeling well and also if we can give you advice to because you're just getting into this and i had a regular job. I was not expecting to get into this line of work at all. And when i started doing when i was studying the chart in the beginning i i just made a spreadsheet and it was before i even tried to write a book or anything like that and i just started to in my research just chart the patterns and what i learned and joanie and i we we just also the website helps too because we put our cases on the website and if we forget something we'll just go back to the page But i think you're probably not just in the demo stage but you're also in the research stage you're you're finding out what this can do and that's a really exciting time but we We documented a lot as much as we could and that helped us as we started going down that path. And i'll tell you when you get it when things are more receptive in the spirit world that we have found out through this documenting and watching for me. It's always around the full moon or when the moon is in a good aspect it's always gonna always owners think when quick. Oh sorry no go ahead. No you're not allowed. I was just gonna say we'll help you with that okay. So i get very profound messages to that Doing these sessions to I'll just name a couple. One is god is right behind you and silence the other one is god's will guide. We'll take a hundred percent. What is his even. If you don't believe cool. I know i right stuff And then Those are the two Just couldn't wait to tell you so there you go. Well there's more. But the god god is right behind you. You got that That reading that's on youtube. Is that correct. Well known ah for that for crow. Yes that was fascinating i do. Yes where do people find you if they would like to do a session with four with their loved one. What did they find you. Okay so they can find me of course on facebook Just you know We sessions so facebook dot com slash. Blue moon stations. You can mess. Message me there You can also send me a message to my take. Talk which is take talk dot com for slash Blue moon sessions. And then i'm on you to Youtube dot com overprice blaming sessions. So it's stations across the board and getting ready to do a podcast correct. We're do you know where your podcast will be. I do not is just trying to find the time to do it right. We do not know. But i've got like the intros altro done. I'm like oh so excited. But yeah i have the time to do what we're gonna do. I think joanie you. And i whenever we see a really good aspects coming up Because we're always looking for you with regard to when there's going to be the strongest for your clairvoyance we can also think of johnny to and maybe bring him in on a certain time when we know he'll get the clearest message that'd be it and there's a good the new moon and foam or good time okay and we actually tomorrow is a new moon and it good a good aspect to sometimes it can be a full moon and it can be all messed up so right we. We just have to make sure that's strong. That's all and of course. Don't do anything in a void of course lew because the dog just like status. Yeah it's a pretty big one. They got a calendar. You can go to and make sure that that the moon is in a zodiac sign. And not passing through to the next one cause shuts off and we can't really get a lot during that time no you can on. Oh you can't but the full moon is the best time i think personally i loved the zodiac killer stuff. We may be onto something here. I know right. We already know who it is where we yeah. I think there's nothing. Now we're going to have to sloughs and you can do more sessions but you know what you guys. We have been talking for an hour heavily. Yes it goes by fast doesn't it. Does johnny sank you so much again for such an exciting hour. It flew by yeah. I'm just you're waking the sessions. I love him. I absolutely love them so you yes they they check out the marilyn monroe Clip and i'm v v trying to finish up the whole session. Soon i i i am in your neck of the woods sometimes so maybe one day we can do We can meet. And i can broadcast over there. That'd be pretty interesting. i can show you. My my impression would be would be who. I can watch her stream yard being. Yeah much and everybody else bow. Where do people find you. You can go to forensic astrologer dot com. And if you're interested in reading about strategy can go on amazon and just Search for valerie evans and forensic astrology. One on one you can also get both of us score. Coughing crime charts Me and johnny on the weekends not right now though. 'cause it's mercury retrograde we're not We're not doing anything but In november will start up again with coughing crime. Charleston's a lot of fun on the weekends absolutely and don't forget that at nine thirty tonight transcendence our with the girls and they are going through their paranormal adventures on the college campus. It's a wonderful show. They had their premiere show last week and it was phenomenal. It's great great energy. Great group of girls and then on wednesday nights on rifts. Mary and stephanie. Evenings with marian. Stephanie thursday crossroads with joanie and theresa and then on sunday howie and cat the orient effects and on monday evenings. My french sherry lynn. And it's the hunt details from the rocking chair. Which that's a great show goes over. The old haunted tales. Manion knife ain't no so you guys lineup a great week. Everybody johnny thank you so so much for such an interesting interesting. You're welcome. Thank you for having me on it. You owe any time. They're much and we'll figure it out and do the black dow. Yeah yes out of whatever you want black down here for spooky october so anybody has any clues on desert rat killer. I will post the clues and maybe we could do the session on true crime mysteries beyond the veil on facebook page down. I love utero your practice. Tarot readings are so much fun. So we we hear you. Jim channel terro terro by the raven's nest youtube. I'm teaching on that channel for free and everybody should learn. Come join us. It's a blast so well everyone thank you so much. Have a fantastic week and we will see you guys next tuesday or have a great week. Guys johnny thanks. So much i vow no mom happy for a good week to have a great week all right. Good night night night goodnight.
I'm In Love With That Song: Marvin Gaye - "I Heard It Through The Grapevine"
"You are listening to the I'm in love with that Song podcast part of the Pantheon podcast network. My name is Brad Page and each episode of this podcast I pick one of my favorite songs and we explore it together hoping to discover what makes a great song great. We don't get into music theory here. So no musical knowledge is really required. All you gotTa do is listen and see what we uncover on this episode we're listening to attract it is without a doubt a stone cold classic. This is Marvin Gaye and I heard it through the grapevine. Tom. Marvin Gaye grew up in a housing project in Washington DC HIS FATHER WAS A. He. was also extremely abusive and beat Marvin. A Lot Marvin started singing in church. When he was about four years old, he spent a short stint in the Air Force sang with a handful of doo-wop groups eventually relocated to Chicago than Detroit where he met Berry Gordy and signed with. Tom. Lehrer records. He was like an all purpose utility player there he. Sang. He wrote songs even played drums for motown acts like stevie wonder his first single under his own name. Let your conscience. Be Your Guide was released in nineteen sixty one. He had some big hits on the RB charts but never made it to number one on the billboard top one, hundred until I heard it through the grapevine in nineteen, sixty eight. I heard it through the grapevine had its own long and winding journey. It was written by Barrett Strong and Norman Whitfield in nineteen sixty six. We've talked about Whitfield strong on this podcast before smokey Robinson and the miracles were the first take a crack at it in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, six, although their version didn't actually come out until nineteen, sixty eight. Make. Somebody. Between the two. You know. Same. Not? MOTOWN head Honcho Berry Gordy didn't think this track was strong enough to be a single. So that's how it ended up getting set aside for two years. Marvin Gaye was actually the next person to record this song, but again, Berry Gordy rejected it. So the song was shelved yet again. But Norman Whitfield wouldn't give up on the song. He retooled it into a more. UPTEMPO. Number with more of a traditional motown feel and we recorded this new version with Gladys Knight and the pips. It was Gladys Knight's version that was finally released as a single in nineteen sixty seven. Can't. So interestingly, it was this third attempt to record the song that was actually the first version released. So Marvin Gaye has the song in the can braided go but Berry Gordy sees Marvin as more of a romantic singer and just doesn't believe this song fits marvins image. The song eventually does turn up eighteen months after he recorded it as an album track on Marvin's nineteen, sixty, eight L. P. in the groove. But some DJ's discover the track and start playing it a lot and it catches on and Berry Gordy relents and releases it as a single in October nineteen, sixty eight and it becomes motown's biggest number one hit. I heard it through the grapevine is pretty uncharacteristic for motown hit. especially at this time, motown's specialized in upbeat energetic pop songs that appeal to both black and white audiences. I heard it through the grapevine is almost the opposite of that. It's dark and Moody full of tension and anguish that never resolve with lyrics like do you plan to let me go not much longer? Would you be mine and just about to lose my mind you can feel the singer is on the precipice on the cusp of something bad. That's about to happen. The whole song puts you on the edge of your seat waiting for that other shoe to drop and the songs over we're left hanging as to how the story ends. It's a masterwork doubt suspicion and paranoia. Norman Whitfield produced the track and one of his production tricks worked brilliantly on this song. He forced Marvin to sing the Song Higher Register in a higher key than Marvin was used to or even comfortable with this meant that Marvin had to strained hit those high notes and that's what makes the tension and anxiety and Marvin's vocals feel so real and will explore that as we dig into the. Song besides Marvin's vocals, the track features background vocals by Jackie Hicks Marlene Barrow and Louvain Dempsey's strings by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra and the legendary funk brothers him in Oregon by Earl Van Dyke World Sir Electric Piano by Johnny Smith Richard Pistol Allen and Uriel Jones on drums. The Great James. Jamerson on Bass Jack Alford on percussion. We've talked about Jack on this podcast before and Joe Messina on Guitar. The Sun grabs you right from the very start one whack on the drums. Then a slow vamp on the electric piano followed by a simple beat on the bass drum and hi hat. Okay. Let's breakdown this introduction. One of the most famous introductions in history I. here's the electric piano. nope. Be insistent pulse of that low note it's already applying a nervous energy to track. On Just, before the vocals come in the keyboard parts thickens up. There's a little bit of distortion on that electric piano gives it some grit. Also, there's no bass guitar yet the keyboard is handling all the low and so far the drums are playing very simply. Next, up is a very jittery timbering just adding to that nervous energy. then. The guitar comes in here's what it's playing. and. Finally, right before the vocals start the horns blast in. Let's go back and listen to that whole thing altogether. Back Now once the first first starts the keyboard stopped playing that low out. Oh. Or? And that's where the Bass Guitar comes in.
This Is The Zodiac Speaking...
"This is the zodiac speaking. I like killing people because it is so fun. It's more fun. Them killing wild game in the forest because man is the most dangerous animal to kill something as the most thrilling even better than getting iraq's off with the girl the best part of it. So when i die will be reborn in paradise and all that i have killed. Become my sleeves. I will not give you my name because try to slow down or stop by collecting of slaves from afterlife a strange than in the internet. Uncovering anything with thinking is weird. Strange controversial or makes you think i'm gonna be host. Alex joins always with chad and ryan. Today's episode we're taking you back to the bay area in the late nineteen sixties as we break down the infamous odia killer and just before we get into everything we just wanted to remind you once again to head over to that strange dot net to finally everything including oliver social media different places. You can listen to us and you can find links to our facebook group. That we started called that strange We really hope you guys join us there. It's a lot of fun and we hope to see around and can't wait to connect with you guys more. We did our hoodie. drop in. That was awesome to all you guys that ordered hope you like them and thank you so much because it supports our show and we got t shirts. they're little cheaper same high quality but less expensive. Let me be clear. So you can find all that information on our facebook or if you just go straight to that strange dot net. We'll have links to the preorder form that you can fill out or can just like messages. Serve whatever you want to do. On december twentieth nineteen sixty. Eight betty lou johnson and david faraday had planned on going to a christmas concert at hogan. High school just three blocks from the jetsons house. The couple instead visited a local restaurant before driving to lake. Herman road in benicia california faraday parked his mother's rambler in a gravel. Turn out which was well known as a lovers lane. The teens were both supposed to be home by eleven that night however they would really never make it home from that lovers lane alive so shortly after eleven pm on that. Same nights della burgess. I hope i'm saying that right. A nearby neighbor discovered the couple's bodies in the well known lovers lane. I'm just gonna say it burgess. I think it's boards borghese. No i think. I'm just going to go with boards color. Stella be cell abi good old stella be walking. Her dog finds dead bodies. Okay so that sounds like a great idea for a cartoon so the solano county sheriff's department investigated the murders faraday was shot once in the head at point blank range in died within minutes. Jensen was shot. Five times in the back and killed killed instantly. The weapon used in the murder was twenty two caliber semiautomatic pistol. The ammunition was winchester western. Super copper coated long rifle. Put a pin in that for later. So according to the police report the victims were approached by the suspect while they were still in faraday as mother's station wagon shots were fired into the vehicle in an apparent effort to force them out of the rambler fair day was shot as he emerged from the vehicle while johnson was shot as she fled. Her body was found twenty feet. Twenty eight feet from the rambler. Now this part. I don't know man. I have daughters but this part really really got to. This was jensen's first date. She was allowed out on and obviously the crime shocked to the family and the communities and neither family could really come up with an explanation of why somebody wanted to kill these two teenagers so i don't alex i know you have yet. That's pretty. I mean i know you have the hotter and that's like that's like the most horrifying thing you can think of like you you probably you know. It's probably been months that she's asking you to go out on a date and you're like no. Yeah it's just brutal. The investigation into the crime developed no leads. No one would know it at the time but this was the beginning of a vicious murderer who would torment the bay area and surrounding communities while no one was aware at the time the murders of faraday and jensen would be the first to widely at be attributed to the zodiac a serial killer who would torment northern california with his vicious murders and love for taunting the police and the media the zodiac killer. Would go on to become one of the most infamous serial killers in the united states history but the murders of faraday. Jensen were only the beginning just before midnight on july fourth nineteen. Sixty-nine darlene fair and michael maggio drove into the blues. Blue rock springs park in vallejo only four miles from the murder site at lake. Herman road while the couple sat in fairness car a second vehicle drove into the parking lot parked alongside them. The second vehicle almost immediately pulled back out of the park turning just ten minutes later the same vehicle parked behind the couple. The driver of the second car exited and proceeded to walk up to the passenger's side of fairness car carrying a flashlight and a nine millimeter. Luger killer shine the light into the victims. I before shooting at them five times. So i wanna stop quickly as we're talking about this. You guys have both seen the zodiac movie. Yup guy just literally. I'm one hundred percent mean serious. I literally finished two minutes before us. Yeah yeah so. This is the first murder that sean in the movie. And and it's the first one. And i think that's for a reason and i don't know if you were going to say this or not so i apologize but I think it's because it's the only one we really know about because one of them survives which is crazy right. Yeah i think that has a big big part in it because the other one i think he claims later on that he did it. The first one that we talked about. But that's really that's really it. you know. As far as the evidence goes it's just heat. Now he does call out specifics on the case that only the police and him would have known so i think that pretty much ties it together. I was curious to why they didn't show the first one in the movie. I don't know if the if you nailed it there. That's why. But that's what i think and the only reason i think that and i think that if you if you remember some through lines in the movie because i like it's all fresh on my brain so i think that they probably went with this one because this is also not to spoil anything for anybody. But we're probably going to split some things that happened in the movie anyway because it's all based on a real story but part the became out like thirteen years ago. If you haven't seen it by now. I think spoilers are good right exactly and if you haven't seen it by now you're probably not going to see it. So that's okay but a lot of what they used to tie. Arthur leigh allen to it later in the movie has to do with the fact that darlene knew him which is a through line in the movie that that's like where the evidence points in it also happens to be the first murder they show. I feel like that's part of that. Probably has a good good assessment there for sure. I think that it's as i was like going researching all this stuff. I think they did a really good job with the movie you know. There's there's little things here near that that are not true. It's a great movie even like little things like when the car parks behind them the first time in real life he actually parked right next to him. This is a little stuff like that. Which which to me. I always wondered. Why do that movies. Like i get that like creative. Freedom is a thing but when you're doing a real case you think you would get like little stuff like that right. Just my opinion. Both victims were hit and several bullets passed through michael and into darlene. The killer then walked away from the car but after hearing the male victims still moaning he returned and shot both victims twice before driving away at twelve. Forty am on july fifth. A man called the vallejo police department to report and claim responsibility for the attack. The caller also took credit for the murders of jensen and faraday over six months. Earlier police were able to trace a phone call to a booth at a nearby gas station phone booth at a nearby gas station. Darlene was pronounced dead at the hospital. However michael survive the attack. Despite being shot in the face neck and chest michael describes his attacker as a twenty six to thirty year old hundred and ninety five pound to two hundred pound five foot eight inches tall white male with light brown curly hair. So what do you think ryan. I think that this is what it's worth pointing out that his his claim to the the earlier murders In this particular instance the claim to those heat all he said in the call was basically. Oh yeah and. I killed those two up by lake up by the the lake earlier last year. And it's like okay. Well we know what you're referring to but also it was widely reported you know and so while we while. We're pretty sure that he did that. Because it's the same exact m o. I've always personally wondered if he was because in all reality and we'll get to it. There's a lot of things. He claims that. I mean almost immediately. Were taken away as even possibilities that he could have done so like the thing. I've always wondered about this is was that his inspiration for doing this one and he actually didn't do it. I've always wondered that. Yeah that's not. That's not a good at bat assessment. I think that when we get a little further end and i'll read out his first letter. It's not in our outline here. But i'll pull it up. He does pull out some specifics on that that first case in one of them spoiler alert is the thing i put a pin in earlier. He calls out the exact name of the brand of ammunition. I don't think that was reported in the news so normally stuff like that's not reported in the news right right sure. No that's very true. And i mean even if it was i think the thing that has always stuck in my brain is that we've talked about this before where like there. There's like the psychology of wia killer. Does what they do and how they do it. And the thing that's always of stuck with me is out of all of these. I'm pretty sure out of all of these. Correct me. If i'm wrong because i might. I might be forgetting something. All of the lovers lane. Murders the ones where he killed two people at one time or tried to kill teepee at one time the first murder that he says he did faraday jensen for for both of those people that he tried to that he tried to kill he actually he actually did kill him but for all the rest of them one of them was left alive which it just seems odd that he would be successful in the first the first time which is his first time you know apparently and that's usually the one where they screw up the most and then he screws up in every subsequent one excluding stein which you know it's just it just seemed weird to me right yeah i think i think you're right with that but at the same time it's it's not for lack of trying you know what i mean he. He tried to murder these people. It's not like he screwed up. Royally that i i mean we said earlier that michael was shot in the face neck and chest so i think very true. I think the the the weird thing about it is that it always released with the two people that survive. It's the males so it's almost like he. He gets so focused on killing the women. Maybe that's very true. Yeah focus on killing the women that he just kinda you know forgets about killing the other person there so i i don't know if that's maybe a A thing to call him out like his. Emo style is that he's got some sort of vendetta against women or if it's just you guys think that are just going to say. Do you guys think that there's a possibility. Also that it wasn't a lack of or or an site or something like that that he actually wanted someone to be alive on purpose because he wanted somebody to tell about his because because he's he's psychotic. I mean you. There's tons of things that i'm sure we'll get into a later about different things. He requested and things that he really You know he thought of himself extremely highly and he thought that he was extremely intelligent and all this stuff and they he could get away with it and obviously you. Don't he kind of debt you know he did and But part of that. I'm wondering was was it so that way somebody could could say this is. This is the guy this is what he looked like. That's what that way it would be. You know people would want to catch him more and the game would be more challenging for him at that point almost like like leaving someone to tell the story right like that. That does accents. Yeah i get that. I think that you're onto something there but man did he. He really did try to kill the kill. The guys i mean he. He used a lot of force and it just it. It seems like maybe that's part of it and then also part of it is just that he did focus too much on the women. I think it was probably both. I think you're right though. Yeah i think. I think you're right to alex. I think that out of every serial killer. This one seems to have the most need for attention. Would you guys agree with that. Out of every everyone that we know so far. He's he's the only one that really put himself out there to get caught in and it's kind of shocking that he put himself so much out there that he didn't get caught and i think that that plays into your hand where you say that he wants somebody to tell the story. He wants somebody to remember his face because it is a game to him. He wants to outsmart the police and he wants to make them look like idiots. So you got you got you know a guy saying exactly what i look like and you still can't catch me. I think you're right on that. That's a that's a good assessment. I think the only other killer that had like a similar ethos and the way that he approached things was probably timothy mcveigh but obviously a totally different approach right. Yep yep but bomber kinda to true. Yes absolutely on august first of nineteen. Sixty-nine three letters were received by the vallejo times. Herald the san francisco chronicle and the san francisco examiner. The letters took credit for the shooting at lake. Herman road and blue rock springs. Each of the letters included a third of the four hundred eight symbol cryptogram which the killer later claimed would actually reveal his identity. The killer made the demand that they be printed on the front page or he would continue his vicious crimes. The chronicle would go on to publish. Its third of the cipher on page four in the next day's edition in an article printed alongside the code. It had a quote from the vallejo police chief and he proceeded to say that he was not satisfied enough to say that the letter was written by the killer requested a second letter with more facts to prove his claims. So let's read the first letter and the letters are almost identical. That were sent to all three of the news things. I'm going to just pick the first one here. Which is the san francisco. Chronicle one it says dear editor. This is the murder of the two teenagers last christmas at lake. Herman in the girl on the on the fourth of july near the golf course in vallejo to prove i killed them. I shall state some facts. Which only i in the police now christmas now. I do want to point out here both times that he spells christmas. He spells it. Christ mass with two ss at the end i put a pin in that are later nat for later for sure so christmas brand name of anna ammo is super x so you can remove that pin that we put in there earlier because he calls out the ama- ten shots were fired. The boy was on his back with his feet to the car. The girl was on her right side. Feet to the west fourth july girl was wearing at patterns slacks. The boy was shot in the knee. Brand name of ammo was a western. So that is the cipher that was sent to earn decipher. I'm sorry i apologize. The letter that was set along with a third of the cipher. Each of the three different news stations. So like ryan said earlier. This is the outside of the phone call. He reported the second murderer. This is now. He's calling out that first murder we talked about again and he's being a little bit more specific. So what do you guys think about that. I'm wondering and i'm trying. I was trying to find it. But i'm wondering if that was ever actually published or if that is definitely something where he only he and the police were the. I looked man i could not. I mean we're talking about. We're talking about articles that were printed in this in in the late sixties. From what i could tell it was printed so you can take that for what it is. Maybe it was at some point in like a local newspaper local magazine or anything at the time it could have been printed and he pulled it off there but then also the things that he said were just. I mean they were. They were extremely specific. And you're not gonna. You're not going to say that somebody was facing this certain direction and in these certain things were were a part of it. When you know you're not going to because the families still mourning and things like that like it's it would be inappropriate to really paint that picture in that way. i think. yeah. I think you're right there. I think he does call out some very specific aspects of the crime. most importantly maybe the ammo is printed. And you can. You can almost say that the number of shots might have been printed to it might have said so and so got shot three times and so got shot you know. Whatever but the the direction that they're laying. I don't know that that would have ever been printed in in any any paper. I don't know what the reason would be behind them doing that. You know what i mean. Why why would you print are. Why would you share by. Ammo is used because then if somebody wants to commit a murder. They're going to be like. Oh i'm gonna use this exact am ammo and they're going to think think it was. This guys have now the other thing that kind of strikes me about this and it didn't. It didn't actually occur to me until this exact moment. This is the exact type of language. Wording that they would use in a police report. I wonder if he had the police report to like even if he did whether he did or not. I wonder if he wrote it from the police report. Because this is like this is how police talk. This is how they not things like her feet. Were facing to the west. Like that is just kind of a weird. You're randomly no. Yeah that's a good point for sure. I didn't even think about that. Yeah yeah it's very interesting and and maybe back then it people were a little bit better with the stuff. But i wouldn't be able to tell what direction the person i know. He was just facing. You know what. I mean. No way and and i feel like and i don't know maybe this is just me but the zodiac has always struck me as an unorganized killer. Like like he had a he had a thing he had a thing he wanted to do. But it always felt like his killings were were a little bit manic to a certain extent like he planned it to a point but then after that it just all went out the window and it just it strikes me as something that he wouldn't have taken the time to notice. We're taking the time to pull out a compass and find out the direction that he was pointing the people. It doesn't seem like something he would have known. Yeah yeah it's it's definitely bizarre but the police report thing. That's pretty interesting. So but how would he get a hold of. the police. report is the question. That's that's the thing. Vallejo is a very very very small town right like they cover this in the movie. I've read about it a little bit since. Then it's it's not so much but it's within the realm of possibility that you know. He could frankly he could've walked in and seen it on a table like there is some there are some people that think that that think that he like the whoever the zodiac killer was or or is or whoever. There are some people that think that you know he was. He was a person who was always in trouble with the law. Which is why. Some of the letters stopped for periods of time. And and all that. So what if he was the what if he was actually arrested for something and he saw the report sitting on a desk. It wasn't a big yeah. I don't know it's just that's a good possible. Yeah yeah definitely. Vallejo is small. And i think i have. I have a. We'll we'll get we'll get to later. Let's move on here. We'll get to theories. I'm moving on so on august fourth. Another letter was received by the san francisco. Examiner with the salutation dear editor. This is the zodiac. Speaking and this is actually the first time that he uses that to identify himself the later. The letter proceeded to divulge information on the murderers that had not been released to the public confirming the killer's identity. The killer also taunted that if they crack the cipher they would have his identity. Now i'm not going to read this whole this whole second letter here because it's kinda long i'll just take some snippets from it so it says this is the zodiac speaking in answer to your asking for more details about the good times i had in vallejo i shall be happy to supply even more material by the way. Are the police having a good time with the code. If not tell them to cheer up when they crack it they will have me do so. He goes on to to say july fourth. I did not open the car door. The windows were rolled down already. The boy was originally sitting in the front seat. When i began firing when i fired the first shot at his head. He leapt backwards at the same time. Thus spoiling my aim he ended up in the back seat. Then on the floor in the back thrashing out very violently with his legs. That that's how. I shot him in the knee and he said that earlier in the first letter that he was shot in the which again could something that was reported. But this is now now that we're reading this. You guys change your mind. A little bit on the the the identity of the writer was he talking about the second murder or the the first one second. Okay so yeah. I always thought that this was definitely definitely him. I've always thought that of of all of the murders. I think that this one and will get to the other one that i think Which i kind of already mentioned but we'll get there. I think this one in one other one are like one hundred percent. There's no way it could be anybody but this guy who was writing these letters kind of thing so i definitely think this one's him for sure i agree with ryan. I mean this whole time. I thought that these letters. I mean i almost think it would be more difficult for a copycat to try to keep up with this code and i think that's one of the reasons why he did. It is obviously like like we said before a game to him but also this code is his and that gives him this certain Sense of like this is mine. And that's why he's so whether he did some of these are not that's why he's claiming all these other murders as well as because he feels like well they might as to him. He's thinking they're not going to catch me anyway. So why don't i just up. My you know up my credibility you know with all these other claims as well. And and i think that for the most part the ones that he's claiming in these letters i think that he did. Yeah let me Let me break down so for that. July fourth murder that we were just talking about he goes on to say the description of the man that called out the color of his vehicle which was a a witness that stated that his vehicle was brown and i would assume that the police knew that he nailed the description of the identity. Which is that for me. I think we're all in the same boat that he definitely did. The july fourth thing. i think. Definitely thing ryan's a little off on the christmas one. Here's here's what he has to say about the christmas one in that episode spelled incorrectly. The police were wondering how. I could shoot and hit victims in the dark. They did not openly state this but implied this by saying it was well lit. It was a well lit night. And i could see silhouettes on the horizon. Bullshit that separated by hills and trees. What i did do was tape. A small pencil flashlight to the barrel of my gun. If you notice the center of the beam of light if you aim it at the wall or a ceiling you will see a black dark spot at the center of the circle of the light about three to six inches across when tape to a gun. Barrel the bullet will strike exactly at the center of the black dot in the light. All i had to do was spray them as if they were as if it was a water hose. There was no need to use the gun sights. I was not happy to see that. I did not get coverage on the front page so there we go for the christmas one. He's being i again a little bit more specific however not as specific as the first one. Would you guys agree. I would definitely agree. Because there's no way to to directly. Say that this actually is how he did it or that. You know the like him saying that he taped a pencil flashlight. Which also spelled pencil incorrectly. This guy is funny. Yeah there's no way to prove that right right. The thing the thing about the zodiac letters is he is an absolutely horrible speller and i. It's actually kinda funny. And i think that might make the solving of the the the second cipher a little bit. More difficult or any cipher. Difficult if you if you're not spelling correctly right very true yes actually. I had never thought about that before. But the fact that he is such a bad speller. like you've gotta assume that he had typos or misspellings somewhere. And i wonder if that's why they couldn't because they didn't crack some of them right like they never got a few of them. Am i right about that. Yes so there's can you guys hear me. Yes yes so. There is two ciphers. The way they identify am is four zero eight which is the four hundred eight symbol cryptogram. That we're talking about right now with these letters came and then the second one is the one that's not. They can't crack and they've had they've had like cia. Nsa big people trying to crack the sing but we'll get to that a little bit later my theory on that the next day donald did you guys even realize that i like just had a catastrophic failure internet. No not at all. Okay at a stroke failure. Hey what was your tracks stole recording. Yeah okay. we're good okay. Good that's good and so the next day and we're we're going back to this first cipher here. That came with the letters to the to the papers the next day. Donald and bette harden of salinas. Is it selena's yes. California cracked the four hundred. Eight symbol cipher. It contained what we said a misspelled message in which the killer references the novel the most dangerous game and this is actually what you heard at the beginning of this episode this this Solve ciphers the exact same thing that we heard at the beginning even though zodiac promised cracking the cipher would reveal his identity. It did not. And that's not an i mean that's not in right no like no way. There's no way he would give up his identity like that like he's he's trying to toy with them like he's not going to be like my name's john like rice thought no come on. He wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have believed it if i were them. Receiving the letters in the first place that it would actually be in there. It doesn't make sense. And i don't know that they did believe it to be honest because i don't know that anybody could really believe it. But maybe at the time in the sixties. I don't know maybe but i think that looking back on it. Now there's like no way that he was going to put his name in that letter in that cipher rather while the killer of two previous unsolved murders had finally revealed himself. His identity remained a mystery with the solve and not revealing any details into the identity. The police were once again at a standstill. A nervous bay area waited for the next. Correspondents or for the next gruesome murder. However they wouldn't need to wait. Long on september twenty seventh of one thousand nine hundred sixty nine pacific union. College students bryan hartnell. And cecelia shepard were part. Were picnicking at lake. Barry esa on a small island a white man around five eleven weighing more than one hundred seventy pounds with combed. Greasy brown hair approached them wearing a blade. Black executioner style hood clip on sunglasses over the eyeholes. The man was also wearing a bib. Like article of clothing with a white three by three inch circle and cross symbol. He approached the couple with the gun which hartnell believed was a forty five caliber as a little bit of a spoiler alert for the how this one pans out. Yeah just a bit. that's okay. The hooded man said he was an escaped con convict from jail with a quote. Two word name and either colorado or montana. And i don't believe that. I don't believe that. Brian could remember which is understandable for what you see is coming here that he wouldn't remember what this guy said but he's this guy said that he killed a guard and stole a car to escape. He then said that he needed their car and money to escape to mexico because his car was quote too hot which makes sense you know if he stole it right from a prisoner. I get that i think this think the story. He kind of builds. Here's i mean you won't once you see like we didn't mention it earlier but on those on the letters that were sent the same logo that we're talking about was on it that he's got on his front the cross and circle which pretty much a lot of people signed circle around it right. It looks like a crosshairs like it. Looks like if you're playing like a school shooter game. That's kind of what you see when you go into the into the actual shooting mode exactly definitely which makes sense like a gun logo. The suspect had pre cut lines of clothesline. So like what you would have close onto dry. And he told shepherd to shepherd to tie up hartnell before he tied her up. The killer then checked the tightness of the binds that heart now had an on heart now actually tightened them while the couple believed that. This event was a bizarre robbery. Those thoughts were quickly changed by what what happened next. I don't know that this this murderer shown in the movie. Also and i don't know what it is but i have a hard time watching the scene man. I said the same dude. I skipped it watching i. I mean i don't know if it's the. It's just very vivid in very detailed and it's just horrifying to think that this actually happened to somebody to me. It's the killing of the girl. That does it for me like everything before that. I'm like i'm totally fine. But like she's screaming looking directly into the camera and it's just a knife heading her and she's like and agony. It's really brutal. I it's terrifying. I like i watched horror movies all the time with like crazy things happening. There's virtually no blood in the scene. I have to skip it. It's weird right right so he's got them tied up. He's tightened them down. The suspect draws a foot long knife and stabs. Both victims repeatedly heart now suffered six stab wounds while shepherd suffered ten in the attack. The suspect then hiked five hundred yards to the victims vehicle and drew a cross and circle. Symbol on heart nells car door and underneath it he wrote. I'm gonna read this line by line hair. Vallejo twelve twenty sixty eight which is the first one that we talked about seven four sixty nine july fourth one obviously september twenty seventh sixty nine six thirty by knife in. That is the one that we're talking about right now. I'll have. I'm gonna share something on the blog post. That has pictures of this vehicle and what was written on it as well as all of the zodiac letters that he sent. Because we're not going to go over all of them because there's there's a lot but they're definitely keep an eye on the artwork. If you're a podcast player supports it. And i will have those in. There are at least go so again. The suspect would report the crime to local authorities before claiming responsibility for them. The victims were found by a man and his son who were on a fishing who were fishing at a nearby cove. Shepherd was unconscious upon their arrival but slipped into a coma and died at the hospital. Two days later hartnell. The mail survived the attack and was able to provide description to the police in the press. Detectives would also locate a boot print at the scene of the crime that was a military style boot leading some to believe that zodiac had military experience now. The boot that was found at the crime scene was like d- do you probably know a little bit more about it ryan. It's like designed to walk on the wing of planes or something like that and it right only purchase at somewhere where you need a military. Id to make purchases. I remember reading. An and i guess. I i might be wrong about this because i don i remember reading that you could also buy them at military surplus stores yet. What when you think about it. Anything really that the military has for the most part. You can find somewhere right so even back then. I don't think that this is and i think this kind of to a point might hurt this investigation a little bit that the police are now focusing so much on a military person and i and this happens a lot by the way i was just going to say that it's crazy. How often this happens. It's like they get like one piece of evidence and they start chasing like crazy and it takes down like a secondary road and the actual answer is like further up the road. They were already on and they have no idea that they're going down this really weird road and But this just keeps happening. And i think this is one of the early Examples of it. Definitely yeah. I think that you gotta think that if you're doing something like this especially with zodiac who seems to be very into the details if you will that. This is something that i that he would use to throw them off the trail and it seems like a no brainer to me. Like i'm going to wear military boots tonight that you can only buy allegedly or whatever it was i feel like it just throws the entire investigation into a loop. Because i don't personally after after writing this and i don't think you guys are at the end. I don't think this was a military guy. What do you think ryan do you have. Do you have any. I'm in one hundred percent agreement with you on that one. I don't think so at all. I think this guy was either a troubled child that you know became a criminal. But i think that this person is a career criminal in at least in my opinion and some of that. I think i kind of alluded to earlier but like there are breaks in activity with zodiac over time and a lot of those breaks in activity at least with at least one or two of the suspects actually line up with them to having prison sentence which would make sense given the fact that there were no letters received by any the newspapers. Any of the people that he was tormenting didn't get anything like that. That seems to say a lot for me. I just feel like this guy was just a career criminal honestly. Two weeks following the attack at lake mary. Esa a white male entered a cab driven by paul stein in san francisco. The passenger requested to be taken to presidio heights however on arrival for unknown reasons the taxi driver drove one block past the original quested intersection. The passenger then shot stein once in the head with a nine millimeter took signs wallet and car. Keys and a section of stein's bloodstained shirt. The suspect is witnessed by three teenagers. Then called the police so two blocks from the crime scene Patrol officers. Dan falc and eric zooms responding to the calls of the crime in progress witnessed a white man walking along the sidewalk near the crime scene. But because of the initial police dispatch mistakenly pending. The suspect is a black male. They actually ignored the man which turned out to be a mistake. I believe anyway Search following the discovery of crime yielded no results and the officers description of the man is nearly identical to all the witnesses only varying slightly in age and they also talked about like a like a like a limber like like he almost lumbered along kind of thing Which which was another part of this. While the stein murder was initially believed to be a robbery gone wrong. That theory was squashed two days later. The san francisco chronicle actually received a new letter from the zodiac containing a piece of the bloody shirt that was taken the night of the crime and claiming responsibility. Witnesses were questioned and from this crime. The police sketch was developed. The case was given to detectives bill. Armstrong dave tashi the same cisco department estimated a total of nearly twenty five hundred suspects that were investigated over a couple of years. Now this is a crazy crazy story and this is kind of said this earlier but the murder of paul stein. Here is one of the ones that i think like. You can't say he didn't do in. It's because of these pieces of the of his pajama shirt. Basically that this guy was wearing while he was driving a cab late at night. What do you guys think. I think it's i think it's you're right. You know one hundred percent. He did this but if you look at it doesn't fit his. Mo at all whatsoever no not along the other the other attacks couples in secluded areas. It's like totally bizarre that this happened. But i think it's but i have a theory on this and i. Do you have a theory too that you want that. You're going to go ahead okay So i do have a theory here now. The movie posits this. And then i. I kinda did some digging a few ago after watching this movie because i've been obsessed with this story for a very long time it. The killing actually happened really close to the same timeframe that a radio show was talking about the zodiac and making all of these claims about what kind of person he must be and and how he's a monster and all this stuff and the movie kind of says this. And i think i kind of agree with the idea but basically they're driving along. This radio station is playing. All the speculative stuff about him and then all of a sudden he shoots the guy and i'm wondering if it was. I'm angry. all these people are getting it wrong. I'm going to show them. Just what i'm capable of and i'm going to show them show them that. I'm not stuck to the same m o that i've been doing for for a while now and i'm going to kill this guy right here and now i don't think he planned it. I think he got in the cab to go somewhere. And i think he decided in that cab ride that he was going to kill this man. I gotta be honest with you. That might be the best assessment of this. That i've ever heard i think that's the annual and i never heard that i mean that's that's perfect breakdown of it. What do you think alex. I- i- hundred percent agree and honestly it's something that i've thought about. You know hearing different stories of serial killers like that. It's like if one of the major criteria is analyzing their mo. Why wouldn't you change it every single time or at least pretty often right yeah. It's just that when you look at the case without digging into it it's like a total curve ball right because it doesn't but but but it breaking it down like that that's probably an as a great assessment. I gotta be honest. So i appreciate that. I thought i. I thought i was on. Its tastic so contained in that letter with stein's shirt was a threat that would startle the community and keep them on edge zodiac threatened to shoot out the tires of a school bus and quote. Pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out so this is this is another thing that probably absolutely horrified this community. Right because they're in the grips of the serial killer so correct me. If i'm wrong did they didn't they hold off on printing the we're gonna. I'm gonna pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out part for a little while before they actually. Yes yeah they did. That was probably a smart decision. Because i think you you're you're one hundred percent right like this. Would this would just rock the community to like to their core. I mean can you imagine being asked like to keep that quiet while having kids getting on an office grace right. I don't know that i could honestly like. I think i'd call my kid off from school every day until they called me to ask on. And i'd have i mean i'd have like an overwhelming amount of guilt about that but i mean you have to do what you. Yeah but you would have. You would have overwhelming even more overwhelming guilt. If you sent your kid on the bus in this happened you know what i mean so yeah i would have no guilt none whatsoever room keeping up from school. The community of san francisco crippled by the most recent zodiac threat. The killer continued his antics. He contacted the oakland police department requested. That one of two prominent lawyers at the time. F lee bailey or melvin. Belli appear on. Am san francisco while bailey was unable to appear on the local talk. Show alvin bell. I actually did. The host of the show pleaded with the public to keep the lines open in hopes that the zodiac would call eventually someone referring to himself as the and sam called in and a meet up between the suspect and bell was arranged however the caller never showed so on november ninth zodiac mailed a card with another cryptogram consisting of three hundred and forty characters. This cipher has never been decoded although many have claimed to have cracked it. None of them have been able to to be actually taken us definitive. The zodiac then began communicating with marvin bell. I in a letter that included another piece of stine's bloody shirt zodiac could ask for belli's help in this letter which turned which he actually then turned over to detectives. While many other murders have been speculated to involve zodiac the only murders have been definitively tied to him are the ones we have mentioned so far. Yeah so we kinda hinted at that earlier. And i for the sake completion est i will share the other murders on the blog. Post i personally after reading into them. Do not believe that they were doc. I don't know if you guys read into any of the other murders. I have an only because this case really does just completely fascinate. Me and i would agree with you. A lot of them and there are a few like there's one where he actually claims that he shot cop in a parked police car. And i mean like that was literally reported in the news like days before he wrote the letter was received and then like a day after he sent the letter someone was already in custody and had an had literally said that they like there's multiples of these where he claimed something that he definitely didn't do which just points out like how much he was to your point earlier. Actually just trying to to play up the media. I mean let's be honest. This man was a brilliant marketer. Oh yeah for sure. I mean even some of even some of his letters he. He requested that the citizens of san francisco where pins zodiac pins and it would make him. I love that by the way. I think it's great. It's awesome and i thought when i when i saw that in the movie i thought it was like hollywood stuff but it's actually true in the letter. It actually a couple of the letters. He says that you know you request that they wear penzone says he's upset that he doesn't see anybody zodiac pens like like my favorite is that he specifies he's like nothing mean or angry. I forget the wording. But he's like nothing rude or mean or now. But i just want someone walking around with my with my symbol or something like it's so funny like eared thing to ask for her so we kind of broke. You is trying to build a brand. I mean i think hildebrand beyond maybe he did have his own clothes. You go there you go. So we kind of breezed. Over the the melvin. Belli thing and it. We kind of mentioned it at the beginning of this episode. And i don't know if we were recording at the time that we mentioned it's gonna mention it again. That video of bel. I on the news talking with somebody on the on. The phone was actually tied to a psych patient that called in that was in a psych hospital so it was not zodiac. Unfortunately because it makes for at least the scene in the movie school you know it's like the scream and everything but oh yeah oh dude it's terrorism. I mean can you imagine sitting there watching it with like kids right right like that shock. Yeah so unfortunately that was not zodiac. That ended up being somebody different. But i think it was. It's an important part of the story. I think because it kind of shows that a lot of people were piggybacking off what zodiac what zodiac is. Doing they had you know. Hundreds of suspects confessing to them and getting the details. Completely wrong on the crimes. So he's he's really got this community half of them and fear and half of them trying to take his his glory from them. Maybe not half. That might be a little bit of an overestimate. But i think that doesn't matter what i think. Let's move on call so just to kind of move onto another story that that seems to have been tied back to the zodiac kathleen. John's of san bernardino was actually traveling on the night of march. Twenty second nineteen seventy to visit her mother. John's was seven months pregnant and had a ten month old daughter beside her as she traveled along highway. One thirty two near modesto modesto. A car began honking and flashing the lights behind her. She pulled off on the side of the road and actually stopped the man in the car parked behind her approached her and informed her that her rear wheel was wobbling and offered to tighten the lug nuts following assisting her. The man drove off and john scott back onto the highway however the tire almost immediately came off the vehicle. The man came back around and offered to drive her in her daughter to a nearby gas station. John's entered the man's vehicle for assistance. And for the next ninety minutes he would drive back and forth on the back roads passing multiple stations. But he did not stop when she confronted him on not stopping he would change the subject. The suspect eventually stopped at an intersection. At which time. Johns took the opportunity to escape with her young daughter. The suspect preceded search for her with a flashlight stating that he wouldn't hurt her but he eventually gave up and drove away. During johnson's statement to the police. She noticed that the police composite sketch of paul stine's killer and identified him as the man who abducted her and her child while many accounts report that the suspect threatened her during the ride. This is disputed with the police report. Yeah and in another part. That's disputed is him searching for her with the flashlight. I couldn't really find it a definitive answer if he actually did that so Take that for what it's worth. I don't know that he did or didn't get out of the car and look for the flashlight. But this is actually what alex was talking about earlier. Right this is yeah. Yeah this scene in the movie Whether it's actually how it played out or not was this. Is the scene that i had hard time watching like the whole time. I was thinking to myself. Because you see the people pull up. And she's freaking out on the side of the road she's bloody and and and what you assume then because in the car The the guy he actually says and because because another thing we didn't really talk about exactly. I don't think Oh yeah ten month old daughter. Okay and he says. I'm going to throw your child at the window before i kill you. Kill you and kill you. And then it's then it proceeds to the scene to cycle my. Gosh what whereas her kid and then you know and then luckily you know you see that that that she hid hit the child and you hear the crying. It makes it a lot better but before that you know. I'm thinking to myself. Oh my gosh. She's looking for her kid on right right. Yeah yeah. that's that's a good. That's a good assessment. That but i think from everything that i could find that threatening stuff was actually hollywood and her police report. He'd she doesn't mention that she was threatened by him. She just felt very uneasy with this guy. Driving her around passing the gas stations. That that's why she actually got out of the car when he stopped at that intersection. So yeah But yeah that's it's startling. Scene in that movie for sure. In a letter received in october of nineteen seventy by chronicle reporter paul avery the similarities between zodiacs activities and the unsolved nineteen sixty six murder of sherri joe bates in riverside more than four hundred miles. South of san francisco revealed while similarities. Are there riverside police and paul. Avery maintained that the murder was not committed by zodiac now. This is the one that i kind of mentioned a little bit earlier. That i didn't wanna start with this. For at least part of the investigation was considered to possibly be perpetrated by zodiac. But i think the evidence shows that it's not zodiac. I do you feel that same way ryan. I would say so. I mean it. It feels like you know like i said earlier. He's just kind of taking credit for anything he can take credit for and And i have a fury on that by the way. But i feel like he's just taking credit for whatever he can because he wants to stay in light and he's become a. I think that's right. I'd have to agree with that as well. So while in correspondent sent by zodiac claimed thirty seven murders. Investigators seem to agree that only seven confirmed victims two of which survived and the final confirmed zodiac letter was received on january twenty nine th nineteen seventy four and included the final score and i. I didn't really mention this earlier. He's kind of keeping score on some of these letters so the final score for him in this is worth thirty. Seven comes from as me equals thirty seven. Sf pd equals zero. So it's like a game to the sky man. It startling that that say he's keeping score. That's like horrifying right. Yeah i mean it's it's just like you said it's it's all a game to him and and it's It's just fine. I mean he's said before he's a psychopath. Most i shouldn't say most but there are serial killers that are just completely insane. You know a lot of them are are you know smart in a they. Have that charisma to be able to attract people in order to kill them but for him. He's just coming out of the night. And he's a psychopath. Mean that. And i think that's part of why he never gets caught is Psychopaths don't follow a set pattern. Sociopaths are typically the ones who set a follow a set pattern and the reality is that there. Aren't that many psychopath killers like confirmed psychopathic killers. But the ones that have been confirmed to be psychopaths or at least think that they're confirmed to be. Psychopaths are the ones who haven't been caught. Which is because they don't follow a pattern they don't they don't have an emo. They don't do things the same way each time. So it's hard to track them right. So dave gi. I think that's how you say it. Right dave totski. It's other tashi or gator. Can't with toss ski. Was the chief inspector on the zodiac case. He also inspired movies. The movies bullet in dirty harry for his unique personal style and look out. I'll share a picture of him. And maybe ryan will put one here. He's got a very unique dress style and he's just a he's just cool dude i think but he was actually under investigation for potentially writing one of zodiac letters that was sent but he was and this is super unfortunate and he was exonerated of this thank goodness but ruined is the history ruined his career whether he was exonerated because he was i think it it screwed him out of the chief position i think for the department because of all this was going on so it is very unfortunate but and the real of that is they mentioned this in the movie too but i think i think it's called mentioned here because he he did not write a letter to the right one of the zodiac letters. He actually wrote a letter to someone who was writing like stories and comics based on what he did in the police force. He wrote a letter an anonymous letter asking for those stories to be put back into the newspaper. He was basically writing like a fan letter to himself. And that's why the speculation happened. Which is like unfortunate like. He just wanted to see the about himself right. He's looking for attention that's what he was doing. But at the time when you see a guy publicly looking for attention. And i can see where they made the ties. I think that was at least part of them. Checking the handwriting for this guy too right. Yeah he had to submit handrail exams. It's an unfortunate thing that happened to the poor guy. And i like we saturdays exonerated so he definitely did not rate one of these. So we're going to briefly burris over some suspects here. And i'm going to let ryan do arthur. Leigh allen is it. Because i think that he is the one who gets okay. I'm fine with that All right so Spoiler alert also had in whatever you want. Add in here because i tried a little brief on the suspects. So that's fine. I just say. I do think that maybe after we talk about this a lot of people will will maybe agree with me on some of this that he's he's might disagree with that so we go and we'll get there so if you guys have not seen the movie we've talked about a whole bunch robert gray. Smith is kind of the central character. He's a cartoonist. For the san francisco chronicle during the zodiac time he became kind of obsessed with this case. I worked with paul avery at the at that newspaper. Now part of his story is told in the film but gray. Smith also wrote a book that advanced. Arthur leigh allen as a potential suspect on circumstantial evidence. Now the circumstantial evidence that we're talking about here is pretty crazy and Is pretty hard to say is not him. But it was all circumstantial. We'll get to that. And second so allen had been interviewed by the police from the early days of the zodiac investigation was the subject of search warrants over a twenty year period. And grace moretz book. He describes allen as the most likely of the suspects according to police detectives however in twenty ten tashi states that the evidence against alan ultimately turned out to be negative allen had been reported in the vicinity of lake barry esa during the attack allen again came under police attention in nineteen seventy one when his friend. Donald cheney reported to manhattan beach california police that allen had spoken of his desire to kill people use. The name zodiac insecure a flashlight to a firearm for visibility at night allen also wore zodiac watch had the same type of had the typewriter as the one discovered to be used in the sherry joe bates cased live near vallejo only minutes from one of the zodiac victims which was in which we mentioned earlier in two thousand two sf pd developed. Ask whatever you wanna add into. This evidence is so now just to kind of go a little bit more into what don cheney mentioned here just to be specific. This is the kind of this. Is the stuff that don cheney said that. Allen told him so he told him that he would like to kill couples randomly. He taught the police with letters detailing crimes he would sign the letters with the cross cross circle symbol from his watch. He wanted to one day call himself zodiac. He said to his friend at that time he would wear makeup to change his appearance. He would attach flashlights to the barrel of his gun. In order to shoot at night he would full women into stopping their cars in rural areas by claiming. They had problems with their tires. Then loosen their lug nuts and eventually take them captive He was born on december eighteenth around the same time. The zodiac told attorney. Mar melvin belli's housekeeper. Over the phone. That it was his birthday and he needed to kill someone. Allen lived vallejo near blue rock springs lake. Herman road murderers like. There's there's a lot there's actually a bunch and i might even include a link to to this article. That goes over a lot. I think i know the article. You're talking about you. I'll put it in the blog. Post where you guys can read down all that stuff. It'd be good to look at. There's a lot here and the the reality is that after even after all of this. With all of the circumstantial evidence this is. This is of the thing that happened. So in two thousand and two san francisco. Pd developed a partial dna profile from saliva on stamps and envelopes of zodiac letters. The sf pd compared the partial to both allen and don cheney since neither test results indicated a match allen and cheney were excluded as the contributors of the dna. But my thing on this my one thing on this is it is entirely possible that he did not because he planned this whole thing. He knew what was going to happen. He knew how he was going to toy with people. I don't believe that he would have. He would have personally licked though stance. Yeah probably had a dog only there you go or or just i think they can tell the difference between dog. Dna and human dna and other animals. I believe if they can't to then why are we even using right if they can't right. Yeah i i think that's a fair assessment to make to me. This is like the put the pen in this guy thing. And i don't believe it's him. I think that did it. What did you say no. It's totally this guy. You think it's him hundred. Rebellious you way tie and a one. Yeah it's totally are three al. I think i think that the movie in the book. Lean very heavily into the sky. And i think that is where a lot of the stuff comes from but the dna man. I mean that's like. I mean outside of having somebody to lick his stamps. Which seems odd which is possible. But again is circumstantial right. We don't know that there's no way to prove that he had somebody else. Lick that stamp and that sucks for that guy if they ever find him or girl right. Like oh yeah. True totally got lick stamps. For arthur leigh allen. Back in the day that's true now but also think about it this way too because back in those days like Post offices were smaller people. New people like it's it is possible that he walked in there and said oh. I forgot to put a stamp on that. Could you throw a stamp on there. And they they may have just done it our as possible. That's very yeah. That's on very good. Very good assessment. I mean the guy wore gloves. He wore gloves. He knew what he was doing like he planned this all so actually the witnesses at the pulse stein murder seeing the kids said that he was they witnessed him wiping the vehicle down for fingerprints and stuff to see a right. He did very much plan this out and he knew what he was doing hundred percent so i dunno you. Take it for what it's worth. I think the reason that i have him on here. I is because i think he's the most likely suspect. I think it's a no brainer. That he's the most likely out of the other ones that we're gonna talk about. And this is the same kind of thing as the db cooper thing. It's been so long now that everything is going to be circumstantial outside of them finding a match for the dna or something else. That's a little more substantial. So the reason i put him on here i but a lot i mean. There's there's a documentary documentary series. That leans on three or four other different suspects. So have you guys just put all. Why don't we just put the rest of this list on the did you say yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. I'll put that. I can put the rest of that on the blog posts. Because i think if being honest some of these are like no like even ted kaczynski. The unabomber was considered as a suspect for for zodiac. Which when you look at some of the stuff is like okay. I mean got kind of the same handwriting. And kinda the same. Look but i mean i don't know man the the one that i was talking about in last week's episode where i said the guy thought that it was his step or his dad. Did you guys remember me talking about that. yes i do. So the name of the book that was published as the most dangerous animal of all in which he claims his search for his biological father. Van earl van best junior led him to conclude that van best was the zodiac killer and then twenty twenty. The book was adapted to an fx documentary series again throughout the entire documentary brings up very very good points very good stuff but at the end it kind of unravels. So i'm not gonna i'm gonna. I don't wanna spoil that for anybody. Who wants to watch it. I think it's worth a watch or just gonna put a pin in that one. We'll put a pin in that one and the other one. I wanted to briefly. Talk about was raw sullivan ross. Sutherland was a person of interest through the possible link to the zodiac killer in cheri jo bates and riverside which again were not sure that zodiac committed. And i think it's pretty fair to assess that he didn't commit that. Crime but sullivan was a librarian at a ra- library assistant at riverside city college and was suspected by colleagues. Who said that he that he went missing for several days after the murder of sherri joe bates sullivan. If you look up. His pictures resembles the sketches of the zodiac. He wore military style boots. Same as the ones found at the lair lake. Barry us a crime scene and he was also hospitalized multiple times for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is another documentary that i watched last night. It's actually on amazon. It's pretty good. It's called the hunt for the zodiac killer. And they lean into this guy pretty pretty pretty heavy and it's actually pretty interesting. It's like a retired. Lapd detective and like a retired. Fbi profiler maybe. It's really good. If you if you guys get a chance to watch it. The the next part that we're going to briefly talk about comes from that documentary. So i'll you the rest of these. Like alex said i'll share the rest of the suspects if you guys want to read them on the blog post so make sure you head over to that. Strange dot net check out the rest of these suspects. prepare error. The san francisco police department marked the case inactive in april of two thousand and four however reopened it in march of two thousand and seven this case as everybody knows remains on open and no one has ever been charged with the murders so z. Three forty was the cipher. That was never solved k. It was the second cipher. We z eight and z. Three forty in the finale of the documentary series the hunt for the zodiac killer. Which is the one. I was talking about on amazon. A code team feature is featured attempting to solve the three forty cipher. Craig bauer one of these members seemingly solved half of the cipher that zodiac assured what contain his identity. And i'm going to read this. And then i'm gonna tell you my opinion on it here it is. I kill both night and day. I live by the gun. Barrel aim so quick wishing for game to be over pigs. Now there's like six other ways that this goes after this and i'm not going to put it in here because i don't think either of them alright and i don't think this is right. Did you know this ryan i had. I remember what. I watched this or watch. Something like this Or at least watch part the part where they talk about this cipher and and you know that they had maybe figured it out but you know at the end of the day i think you have to also look at the previous writings and if you look at the previous ciphers the ones that were solved and definitively like this is actually what they say. This isn't like the way he wrote. Ciphers no no not at all. It doesn't sound like him at all. Not even a little bit like i could believe it coming from someone else. Maybe but it doesn't make any sense coming from the zodiac. As we him and his letters were anything but inconsistent like they were very consistent. I'll give you a give you my breakdown of this second cipher. Real quick so that they seemingly solved half the cipher. Craig says that the second half was just gibberish by the way that he solved the first half so he doesn't know if they he changed the cipher. Halfway through yada yada yada. There is a name at the end. But it's a weird spelling for richard nixon. So he's again toying with them. If that's the actual name maya cessnas. This is not right. And there's no right way to solve the cipher. We're talking about a psychopath here. We're talking about somebody that wants to toy with the the police and everybody i think he just wrote down random symbols to keep them busy and i think that's why the first cipher took a day to solve in this one. It's you know what thirtysomething forty something years later and it's still not solved so i don't think i think the cipher is fake. I don't think there's think it's ever going to be solved definitively. Because i don't think there's a way to solve it if if it's fake. How did they get anything at all. Then well the way that craig did. This breakdown is he says that in in in the cipher. There's a bunch of different symbols and letters here used the letters that were actually tied to the letter in the cipher. so if it was a k. He used k if it was an l. he used l. so he says that's why he thinks it went so long without being broken. Because nobody's gonna try and break a cipher and look behind the k. To find a k. Right right so. I don't know man i i almost didn't want to include this because i just don't believe it but i think it's at least it seems like it's picking up traction zodiac community so that it was worth mentioning but i just think it's and i think that with like ciphers like this there. There are so many ways that you could kind of twist this and make it something that something that you want it to be and i mean for me again like i said there. The zodiac letters were anything but inconsistent. Like i said and it would be strange to me that he would send a cipher that changed code halfway through so that would be a red flag me right away. The wording doesn't seem right. So that would be a red flag to me that i that i probably got my assumption about what he's using here wrong also. Can we talk just for like a list of moments that a married couple. Figure this out when the fbi the cia. Everybody was looking at it. Originally that's the first cipher there. They they actually. We just didn't mentioned earlier. And i just think it's yet we met. We talked about it. Also you got to think about the fact that you know there are a ton of people in the world that can still had these skills but they probably have a lot more time in their hands that it would. I honestly think that it is important that other people look at these things that other people try to play around with it because you know who knows there there could be somebody that could put two and two together that the fbi is just too busy they just got so much other stuff going on exactly and not enough hands. And that's that's what m- kinda muddied up these san francisco police investigation into it is. They had other murders to investigate a lot of other. Might san francisco. It's a big city. They had a lot of other murders to solve not saying that the police didn't care about solving this one which they clearly did but once it gets past that like i forty eight hours that they say it it becomes very difficult to solve these murders and they have fresh murders that are coming in fresh fans that need them to help. And you know that you know. I don't know what i'm trying to say. But it's that's what kind of hurt this investigation. Along with. A couple of of of other things in the cipher. Being one of them so all right. Let's take our final breakdown of what we think on the zodiac starting with alex honestly after hearing kind of the breakdown of arthur leigh allen and all that well i'll say a couple of things i definitely think that he was purposefully. Changing his mo. In order to throw people off. I think that he was possibly changing the code or even just like you said throwing in random symbols from time to time to throw people off. I think that like i said before. This was all a game to him because he is. He's a psychopath. And i think that tying arthur leigh allen to it just based solely on the details given here and in other sources that you said I mean i think it's a good possibility. I think there are a lot of things that tie him. In and Just without doing a Other other research of my own looking at this in it looks pretty plausible to me anyway but definitely an interesting case for sure ryan. Well i kinda. I kind of said what i what i think Earlier and it stands true. I think. Arthur leigh allen having given all of this information to donald cheney back when he did which was proceeding. I don't think. I don't think i was very clear on this earlier but it was proceeding all of the events that was proceeding all the murders. When this when these conversations took place and there were other things revealed that may or may not be factual. But you know things about his writing and his penchant for misspelling and thinking it was funny and stuff like that but the the bottom line is that so many of the things that he talked about doing or actually did like top shooting out a school. Bus tire talking about Tricking women into into pulling over and telling them their wheel was wobbly. And then loosening the lug nuts. These were things that he did which is kind of crazy to actually consider that you know he. This man literally said. I'm gonna do all these things. And then he did them and we're still thinking about it that he couldn't that he might not have been the one who actually ended up doing the things he said he was going to do. Like literally a bullet list of things. He was going to do that he did. And it just seems like. He's the most plausible based on the fact that you know. All all of the in all of the circumstantial evidence what he said he was going to do the zodiac. Watch everything about him the fact that he did walk with a little bit of a a limp. Apparently according to eyewitnesses. You know that actually met arthur. Leigh allen interviewed him. There's just so much to it. And apparently he was in jail during parts during parts of time where there were no zodiac letters received. He was actually serving time in prison during those times. There's just so many things that point to him. I think that it's hard to ignore. I can go both ways on this. I think that. Arthur leigh allen is a good suspect. Part of me thinks that he did it. The dna hurts that theory a little bit to me. I think outside of arthur lee alan. There's a lot of other suspects that look good in this case. I think that there is no way that this guy at least in my brain. There's no way that this guy stopped killing so he either died or got arrested for something else or continued killing and nothing has been linked to him. But that's not very plausible. Because i think he's going to call that stuff out. So i don't know if it's arthur leigh allen. I don't know who it is really. I think that psychopaths don't stop doing what they're doing. And they're not like you. And i alex and i get on kicks all the time and we're onto something else the next day right so so so for a killer to do that. I don't think it's really in the cards but it could be. It could be this guy moved on with his life. Stop killing how to family and died and didn't want to say anything about confessing to it because now he's got a family doesn't want his family knowing that he was a serial killer back in the day. There's just so many ways you can go with this case. I'm i i don't see enough to pin and on anybody which obviously the police in fbi and everybody else don't see anything to put it on anybody. So that's where i land on this zodiac but this is definitely one of my favorite episodes that we don. I love this case. I think we were all really excited about doing this. One so Really thank you guys for for listening if you guys have your own opinions and share who you think did it. You can hit us up on facebook at that strange. Podcast instagram twitter. And i would love to hear what you guys think for seventy or even in our blog our instagram and facebook or instagram and twitter are underscore that strange and then obviously our blog. Is that strange dot net. You can directly comment on the blog if you want or messages are to. We have some really cool stuff coming up in the near future here We got the podcast summit and deepen united You can check them out on facebook as well or just. Google search indie pods united. And then you can get all the information there. We have the event on that bright. You can get all kinds of great stuff It's going to be a really great Convention with podcasts artists. gravitate speakers and workshops as well too If you're a podcast or yourself get yourself in the game and And really learn a lot so And fantastic graphical design stuff being done by our very own alex. Thank you ryan thank you and yes. He's he is he is right is definitely about that. So we are still looking for sponsors. If you'd like to sponsor our show you can also contact us at Contact at that. Strange dot net or just hit us up on facebook like i said Pretty pretty. Well stay active on that. So thank you guys again for listening to this week's episode on zodiac and also make sure you check out our group on facebook. It's called that strange and we're building a great community of people there who just love discussing all things strange and unexplained. So you will see you next time as always. I'm alex i'm chad i'm ryan and we are that strange
"Welcome to the tales of American history. The witnessing history education foundation podcast educating Americans to understand the history of their country and of other countries. So that they will appreciate the value of America's unique free institutions. Take a journey back through time with Ken Masterson Brown, and his guests and let their storytelling transport you to the most compelling moments in American history. Become an American hero. Who participates in our mission by joining us at witnessing history dot org. Download our documentaries and free teacher education materials that conform to grade level education standards at PBS learning dot org. Follow witnessing history on Facebook, Twitter and linked in today. Can't will be speaking. With historian. Brian Steele Will's the director of the center for the study of the civil war era at Kennesaw state university. Brian is the author of many books, and is the biographer of George Henry Thomas and Nathan Bedford Forrest his most recent book from the university press of Kansas is called inglorious passages non-combat deaths in the American civil war a study, which eminent historian Dr bud. Robertson has called quote, a major contribution to the human element, so often overlooked in civil war history. Welcome Ken and Brian. Our guest today is Brian Steele, wills from Kennesaw state university in Kennesaw, Georgia and Brian welcome. Well, thank you so much for having me here today. Well, it's good to have you. Let me let me start Brian with a little bit of your background. I think folks would be interested in knowing that you were born and raised in southeast Virginia. As I understand grew up in Suffolk County is that right? Well, it's not a county. Well, it has its own sort of versions, but it's like all things in history things change, but grew up in old Nansen county in the name. And then they turned it into Suffolk because ultimately, they merged they county and the town oak that it surrounded and so it's mostly still a farming community. Even today's that's growing up a lot more. But it's not nearly as bad as some counties in the. Georgia the the Cobb County that I'm in now is that is the fastest growing county in Georgia. Oh, it's enormous. I've I've I've driven through Suffolk. I mean, it's the peanut country. And I take it your family was in that business to is that right? Yeah. My dad was a peanut farmer. My mother was a mostly fourth grade teacher through her years and up on a farm. It was a wonderful environment. But I told dad I said, I don't think I want to try to do that for a living because they're too many things you can't control the weather. That's good or bad in the market. And they're always borrowing money against the next crop. That's exactly right. Absolutely. And then you went to the university of Richmond. That's your undergraduate degree graduate degree at the university of Richmond and was a spider for spider, fighting spiders. And then I worked for a couple of years before came to Georgia to get my MA and then PHD at the university of Georgia. Okay. Okay. And you were you taught at the university of Virginia wise Virginia. That's correct. It was originally called clinch valley college of the university of Virginia. And then it changed its name to university of Virginia's college at wise, and one of the the people that responded in Charlottesville two that says, but we don't have branches. Will they did have a branch just was kind of an unusual thing because the areas mostly coalfields region, and this was a way of bringing public education at that level to the Cowfield? And now, you're at Kennesaw state university down at Kennesaw Georgia, and you're the director of the center for the study of the civil war era. That's just so you can tell the folks about that. I mean, just a little bit about the Senate when I came in and twenty ten that's when I was hired. From Virginia had taught there for almost thirty years, and I came to Georgia and started the Ceska centennial. And our first program was on John Brown. Our next program was down the election of ABRAHAM LINCOLN. So people can say or are you strictly civil war? Will know we cover everything that helps us understand what leads up to the war and everything that you could say results from it. So you could say we go from Jamestown to today, of course, Donald J Trump's. And you're the endowed professor at the at the center there really isn't in endowment. That's one of the things we would love to do if anybody wants to to have something named after them and create it, we would be happy to talk with you. But we we are largely self sustaining. We raise their own funds through our programs. We do a lot of problems on twenty third in just a short while from when we're taping. This I will be having a symposium. That's our sixteenth annual symposium. It's on transportation in the civil war, particularly focusing on the rails. And I'll talk about the rails. And we have Gordon Jones from the Atlanta history center is a great guy. Tom parson from Corinth Mississippi. They say in Mississippi Cohen. And and and so we're focusing on different themes at different times. I'm also sitting member of the Georgia's civil war commission, and one of the things that's really nice about the commission as it can support programs like this to help bring in again, people that might not otherwise come because they may not hear about it. So we'll have young people that might come in especially for in the summer when we do a collector's showcase. We actually have quite a number of young people that show up for that because they can see materials and much closer fashion. Sure. And they're not overwhelmed. There's not ten thousand of something. They're just a handful of those items, and they can range from sheet music to to weapons to you know, accoutrements anything you can think of that. Somebody collects and it gives a collector a chance to talk about their passion. Why they collect what they collect? And what it can tell us about this era. So we feel like we've got a lot of different things we were talking. Last night about the Vince Dooley. And coach Dooley all shows lent his name to a program that we call the Vince Dooley leadership seminar, and we focus on various aspects aspects of leadership, and we can do civil war topics. In fact, he said I want you to do at least one of those that way. And we said, yes, sir. Coach we'll do that. But he's always so nice. He would never do anything. But but we try to keep keep him happy. Because we of course, want to be able to connect to our main mission of talking about the the conflict, but we talk about anything. We've we had Craig Simon's come in talk about World War Two and we've had people talk about Douglas mccarthur. I mean, if you just different types of leadership this year, we'll have Stephen Woodworth, come up and talk about grant. So very much. The civil war with that. That's terrific terrific. Well, you know, you have you've done a good number of books in your in your career three on Nathan Bedford Forrest and a biography of George Henry Thomas, one of the the rock of chicken Maga. And you've now got a book called in glorious passages on the non combat deaths in the American civil war, a very fine book, Brian as all of yours are and. Let me let me start with you. And ask first of all, I, you know, a lot of people don't have any conception of just the sheer numbers of losses in the civil war. And you got from eighteen sixty one to eighteen sixty five and people have thrown around figures about combat deaths. Most of them have talked about seven hundred and fifty thousand. I've always felt Brian that that doesn't even come close. And what do you think about combat deaths, we know, and if you go back to their earlier times numbers even lower than that? That's actually a raising the number of bit just to get it closer. I'm in total agreement that that's an undercount. Some many people will be killed in so many ways in combat and yet maybe in small skirmishes or out of the way locations that an accounting would be difficult, and you don't have to do much more than go to the cemetery and see the word unknown on tombstone after tombstone after tombstone to realize how difficult it would be to pin anything down precisely. But I'm certainly a upwards of a million if not more than that of people that you could account for if you really try to sit down and do it if that became your life's mission, right, right? And you know, I you run across. Recounts of effective strengths and a battle losses in books like battles and leaders of the civil war. They always have that at the end of each section on various battles. And you look at a battle like Perryville Kentucky and the union losses. You see them there? They're all calculated. How accurate they are? We'll never really know. But you look at the confederate ones and most of them don't even know. That's right there blank. And yet. I mean here you have a battle that could have caused some ten thousand upwards to ten thousand casualties in four hours. And we know how much the army of the Mississippi suffered there, but there's no count. So and you wonder how much that's repeated. So I'm with you. I I think we're probably looking at well over. Million a battle deaths in the civil war. Well, tell me this in terms of non battle deaths, which is what we're really talking about here today. What do you think the total numbers are if in this is pure estimation? Now. And if you can break them down to different types, just to give people an idea of the sheer numbers, we're talking about today, again, if you think having combat deaths and having a difficulty in doing any accurate counting is is the case, and it would be the attempt to try to do non-combat deaths, and especially when you start throwing in civilians into the mix. But there are surveillance killed in some relationship to the war. In other words, if the war doesn't occur those people may die anyway. But there's a likelihood that they don't catch the diseases that would have run through the community. They they don't have the industrial accidents. They don't have the transportation accidents that would have occurred because they're moving troops moving material and so forth. So when you start doing that January nightmare to try to figure out numbers. And remember, I think the easiest thing for listeners to understand is that more people killed. From disease than from bullets and far more people are killed from disease. So if you took the number that we said for for a regular combat deaths, and you started trying to take in the its many times more than that. And I just say this is another way of of making it seem a little bit clearer to people that don't see scale quite the same way. Next time, you're at your favorite football state increase, you know, Georgia BULLDOGS, so we will go to Sanford stadium. But if you go to any stadium look around you at every single person there, and of course, they're all your friends and neighbors wearing in this case blue for Kentucky, but whatever their color, they're wearing imagine that they're now casualties of war one way or the other day the casualties from combat casualties from non-combat experiences. Empty the stadium fill it back up. And then imagine how many times you've got to do that to get to the numbers. We're talking about. So I don't. Wanna make a damper on the next time, you're at your football stadium, unless your team is losing. But. Obnoxious fans, especially out of town. But you know, think about that in terms of just getting some idea of just the enormity. The other thing you can do is course, go to these national cemeteries or the local confederate cemeteries in the south and see just the numbers of graves and the numbers and sometimes they're mass graves where there's no way to say there's a specific individual of maybe a large number of individuals. We talked about Perryville one of my favorite Kentucky battlefields as mill springs, what a nice little cemetery. They're not on the national cemetery. But that little call it does all coffers. And it's just my friend Ed bars would say that where the where the markers have been put up as memorial markers. When Gabriel blows his horn nothing will have because there's no one actually buried there there in a mass grave. That's under one stone when Arborist so well one pyramid. I guess what it is. So anyway, just again, there's so many ways of trying to kind of connect to just the sheer enormity of people who've who paid the ultimate sacrifice or whose lives are totally impacted by this conflict. Sanford stadium would hold about eighty thousand people, and you'd think to reach a over a million you're gonna empty fill it an empty it. What twelve twelve times? I mean, just imagine that and that's capacity, and those are just what we think those deaths in battle were. That's right. And then you look at deaths by disease, and you're gonna fill it an empty it another any maybe sixteen. That's right. That's right. So this it is positively staggering. Well, people ask why southerners for instance, not get over the war. Well, it has such an enormous impact. And they're, of course communities regardless of where you are north or south that families were affected by this war, and and sometimes in multiple ways and not only did you happen to maybe have an army come through. But if you brought wounded or injured are are sick back home to Illinois or to Massachusetts or to Kentucky. What the experiences they had when they were struck down and maybe their their illness. Then can in many ways run rampant through that community. You kind of become a corollary of a collateral damage as we like to say, right? Well, the war is fought in their backyard and through their streets and up there roads. So they are directly affected by the combat and the movement of tro on the south. But I'm saying they are in the north to the war is hard to get away from and if you've been in the country long enough, I realize a lot of Americans arrived at Ellis Island under some other place later on. But, but if you think about the families that were here again what regardless of which side of Mason's and Dixon's line. You're on the war had an impact in this one re. Season that for for those families those communities, it's long lasting. It's meaningful. Yeah. You know, I've often thought about the the losses among civilians in operations, for instance, against Atlanta where they forced all the citizens of Atlanta to leave. And you'd see those great Barnard photographs of the railroad cars with pack bags up at the top where all those civilians are departing Atlanta cities, like Columbus, Columbia, South Carolina, that was torched in large measure, and you wonder the old the infirm, the real young the babies what what happened among them in a situation like that where they're virtually taken out and sent out we have a a diarist here in Lexington during the war lived on 'grats park. And she she. You know? Had epilepsy. But she kept this remarkable diary on the back of her music book. And there must be six volumes of these. But she records during the war, Brian endless streams of refugees coming into Lexington. And these refugees are all from Tennessee, Georgia the place where the war is being heavily fought? And she's it was endless. And and you wonder about them. These are all nameless. But you you we'll never really realize how much disruption there was two. And every time we see a war in modern times. We're always talking about refugees. But there were in the civil war in in in in the hundreds and hundreds of thousands and she records them coming up here. Disheveled many sick. And then there's the the freed slaves as the union army penetrates deeper and deeper, and they're afraid and what do they do? Well, they take to the roads. And we do have records of them outside of camp Nelson, dying by the hundreds and there's anecdotal evidence of many more deaths. And yet we have no real accounting for this until your book comes along. And and whereas yours is an anecdotal book. I mean, it's filled with lots of incredible anecdotes for everyone listening. I really do encourage you to get a copy of Brian's book inglorious passages. Tell us some of the anecdotes ah, Brian that you have in this book one of the things that you do. Of course, he's drawn previous work that you've done. I've written a book called the war hits home, which another connection. To the interest at a have about trying to understand the impact of this war was raised in Suffolk Virginia's we've mentioned and in that area. Never saw major combat, but it saw a number of activities, including about a third of the war under confederate control about a third of the war under union control and a third of the war in no man's land. When you talk about refugees, they might be nameless to the people that watch them pass by but they are people that people knew and people loved and people cared about and so- Suffolk. Some of the Suffolk refugees ended up in Petersburg. Will. You can imagine that you go to Petersburg to be safe. And where does the war? You can imagine that there's no safe place. Yeah. So some of those stories that also make their way into this book are stories at our I found out about and I read about and learn about all those years ago in that and some of them relate again to to refugees into others, one of the I guess not anything to do with combat or non combat desk, but it has human value. If you're an African American and you want to become a free, while, of course, moving into union lines would be the the place that you might wanna go. The only problem is sometimes you're welcome. And sometimes you're not. And so so the person who has decided to try to will say vote for freedom with their feet as sometimes going to encounter pick it or someone who's going to turn them away. Well that determination to be free is going to override that and alternately they'll wait for the change in pickett's and see if the next person's a little better. Unfortunately, some of the circumstances are. Not going to be as simple as that. And unfortunately, nor end as happily as that the worst that you could have had happened in that circumstances to be turned away and have to try again for a family that tried to make to make it to the coast of North Carolina to get to be to the blockading fleets where they could be freed. They got in a very light rowboat type of vessel, and they went out, and it capsized and a number of them perished in in that zest and desire for freedom that for them ended in mixed results. Because some of them did survive were plucked out of the water and save and others were never found and again never found. So we'll never have an accounting of exactly who was in the boat. What happened each one of those because again records the slaves themselves. Just don't have that many diaries and letters and things at articulate that in a way that perhaps soldiers do. So with my book, I was trying to capture the range of. These kinds of events that change people's lives, and it touches on almost everything you can think about people don't think about when soldiers are marching in the heat, and they can they can have sustenance today. When when there might be a local opportunity for grocery store or a service station, but back in those days, it was if you were out on the on the March saying to into Maryland or Pennsylvania or Kentucky or anywhere else in the heat of summer. It could be overwhelming I worked for as a seasonal at Petersburg national battlefield park war of wool uniform. And of course, we stayed under the out of the sun as much as we could those those uniforms are never warm enough in the winter, and they're always awful in the summer. And of course, you get acclimated to them. But even if you do the conditions can overwhelm you. And so some of the stories the poignant stories are of man who simply either get overwhelmed on. March or the collapse. There will never reach a battle where they can face their fo an enemy in battle. What they'll do is they'll die on the way. And it may be that they've already had a year or two of veterans service, and yet it ends ingloriously on the side of a road. Yeah. I I've been working on this manuscript on George Meade Gettysburg is in the in the Gettysburg campaign. I recounted the advance from Frederick north toward Pennsylvania to pursue Lee. And those troops were marching fifteen hours day second corps, covered thirty two miles. And here are all these episodes of soldiers just die on along the roads and one of them in the six core. His kinsman cousin in the same regiment stayed got permission to stay behind barium. And there he remains. Still unknown integrative in a little town in Carroll county, Maryland, so happened all the time. I mean, and we can't even begin to fathom the numbers of this. You've you've got you've got soldiers dying on the March. You have soldiers dying of accidents. Tell us about some of those accidents really are perplexing because we would like to think that people have a little bit more sense. And sometimes they demonstrate, but the circumstances can be varied and can be almost absurd at times, you can you can he or read in these accounts of soldiers having just not paying attention or not not taking care of details. Aren't again soldiers in the most unusual circumstances. They're doing a bayonet practice and someone gets carried away. They are throwing a weapon over in the corner of a building in the round goes through the second floor and kill someone sleeping in the in the bunk above just almost any thing. You could conceive of that someone could do we're going to have our program in Kennesaw on on the twenty-third about transportation. And I'm gonna talk about tragedy by train. There are so many stories of someone who's either swept off the top of a box car or they roll off of one or they they raised their head at the wrong time and a low bridge comes into contact with them or they get try to get on a moving train or try to get off a moving train, and they can trip or fall or anything. And then, of course, once it happens it happens, but boiler explosions collisions derailment, some of the most horrific stories on on trains transportation deal with derailments but collisions when a train is the tracks are just not clear and one train corinn's into another. And they said it was almost one instance was almost like giants doing an arm wrestle where they're they're the two trains are verticals. And and of course, people are caught in between the fires, then take place, and and so. Scalding, and and it just burning to death almost any thing. You can think of that somebody could have happened to them. I should say this. And and you know, it's perplexing to me. I I think this is a book that there's nothing else like it out there. And I thought maybe the civil war audience might find it a little more interesting just because of that. But my number one rating on the I won't do program of commercial program for certain, folks. People know who I'm talking about. If you wanted to buy the book, the place you've go how was number one in death is far as the ratings. Not that. I was number one. But it was the highest rating of all of the fields all of the areas for my book. Yeah. So it was number one for my book in in death. That's useful. That's unusual place to be well, you know, we forget in the railroads in the civil war. The only thing that kept those engineers knowing what track to go is the telegraph, and it would telegraph from station to station. And if that telegraph line was down, which of course, every gorilla every army is going to is going to cut those wires of the enemy to prevent that kind of communication, and suddenly you got two trains on the same track. Well, it can be as simple as just displacing rail. Yeah. So some of these may genuinely bay accidents, and frankly there times where rain will wash out a culvert or something and you have trestle damage, but as you say gorilla could come in takeout a rail got around, and then you don't know if that was a derailment based on the the accent of the train itself or whether it was because it was deliberately sabotaged, right? Jon Morgan constantly raided rent the Ellen. In railroad. And he would have his people out there and remove move ties remove rails. It's a it's a quick quick remedy to the problem and the next train coming down to track off he goes, and it says confusion, and and anything else uncertainty and all of the rest, unfortunately for the confederacy. Of course, the rails dilapidated during the course of the war from overuse, and they had no general way to to repair them. I mean, they might try to do some local things, but for the most part in they're they're left patching and trying to pray and sometimes praying works, and and sometimes you're not quite sure it's on a save you from the next disaster that might be just around the bend there. There were episodes of suicides. Tell us about some of those. I think they're probably some of the most tragic because you think that of people in the past is strong and capable and and all of those things, and this is not to say that people that that end up being overwhelmed are not strong people. They just that we have this image of them in the past as if somehow they're almost not human, and yet this they are very human, and it can be from any number of things from depression to whatever fatigue, just Dan down the list. But I think one of the more tragic stories I remember early in the war was a an officer. Who realized that this war is going to start to make him send his neighbors. His friends says we know when you have a company it's raised in your community. And these are people you grew up with, and you know, and you go to church with or you eat taverns with you do pollen politically vents with and now he was going to have to send these people off to and and many of them were going to kill or. At least some of them were going to be killed and he couldn't handle that. And he went out and he killed himself rather than face that. And so it was a very tragic situation that was one officer who had a real strong track record. That's why repeat the word strong. Because again, we think well in a strength and weakness this not a question of those things. It's a question of a lot of things we don't necessarily understand certainly at that time that we can maybe understand better today. And yet we all know people that we don't fully understand what the circumstances they faced are today. But this man took his horse road over to the river got off his horse and just walked into the river. And that was his way of dealing with whatever had overwhelmed him to the point that he didn't think he could go on. Now, the no were soldiers who were executed and desertion probably the most frequent crimes committed tell us a little bit about those. If you were to look at the have tapped on Justice in the civil war, if you were to look at that, it's a wide ranging chapter deals with everything from situations that involve prisoners and Cam prison camps to situation and involve events that frankly, you can sort of understand would lead to the deaths of someone a murder of a fellow soldier Raper attack on a civilian so forth. And so on yet desertion really is one of those quandaries of what to do. Because of course, an no less a figure, for instance, than Robert E Lee felt that it was important for the good of the army that you make sure that you don't just write these things off. Just don't let them. Mm go by. So you have to make statements while making a statement in that case means you're dealing with human beings, real people. And and there are times where frankly, you know, you almost wonder if somebody didn't ask for it. Or if their circumstances weren't such that they should have expected that but there times at it's just purely tragic there was one cents of circumstance in which gentleman's wife was dying. And he went home got a furlough and went home to see her and to be with her at the end. And then when she passed away he wanted to take the children and make sure that they were taking care of an accounted for when he returned to the service, and he intended and planned to return to the service. His problem was that he lingered in that process. A little too long and the furlough was had expired, and when he came back he was accused of desertion. So here's a man who's gone home for perfectly understandable reasons stayed there for perfectly understandable reasons return. As he promised. He would do just slightly later than he had intended. He ends up being shot for desertion. So it's one of those things where you think had it not been for the war. This man has a family has, you know, chance to continue on in life. And yet the war for all intents and purposes as much as being at Gettysburg or Perryville or Shilo or anywhere else chicken Maga has ended his life. Now. There was a great story. Sad story rather about a soldier from Kentucky. Just like that. You've probably you probably know all about that one too. I think in the six Kentucky infantry, a member orphan brigade who went home after I guess, it was Murfreesboro and to Glasgow Kentucky and stayed just a couple of days. Too long went back and Bragg had him shot and. He's buried in Glasgow at least they think, but he he that that that killing at shooting just 'cause the rage among Kentucky inns who were serving in the army of Tennessee. And you can see why I mean that is a that is the like yours that is just an ultimate tragedy because the kid wanted to came back to the army yet every intention comeback in the army, but his his mother, I think was ill. And that's what brought him back home. And then same thing happened. Well, you've got you've got those kind of things. Tell us about other kinds of deaths that you ran into their suicides. We've we've talked about that. But they're also episodes like Earl van Dorn general Earl van Dr give us a little everybody a little background about Iran Doran era, van Doorn was one of these real colorful individuals, and you know, the descriptions are some of these generals is as much fun as individuals themselves and George Pickett for instance, supposedly wearing perfumed ringlets. And and Earl then Doan was very much a, ladies man and very much a a real character. And he is ultimately going to be brought to his end by a dalliance. We'll say it that way. So that if you're a pro Earl van Dorn person, you can say they're mitigating circumstances about what he may or may not have done or if you're an anti Earl van Dorn person you say, well, he got what he deserved. Can pick whichever one you want. But but he was a shot in the back of his head by an enraged of a husband who had felt like he had he had taken liberties. And that you know, he deserved to be to have to answer for those. And so one of those tragedies for the civil war in the sense that this general is not killed in a combat situation. But by jealous husband who then rides off the union lines against some people would say that he knew what he was doing. And did it more for the union cause in for for being an outraged husband? So you can go through the list of those things, but friendly fire of all kinds results in the deaths of individuals who are again, not brought down by opponents but brought down by their own comrades. And so again, it can be a misidentification in a battle situation. It can be dual gone wrong or dual situation and and trans Mississippi. See I think one of my colleagues made the comment that the a lot of generals went out there to die. Seem seemed always get into these affairs of honor. And then some of them are one or more of them would be killed in the course of those affairs of honor. And sometimes it doesn't work out that way, and you survive guess, you could laugh to see another day. But sometimes very tragically of the lives are lost. You know, we talked about the some of the generals one of the famous instances in in in Louisville Kentucky at the Galt house is is William bull Nelson being killed by Jefferson, Columbus, Davis and Davis will sort of wiry little fellow. And then big bull Nelson who couldn't say one sentence without three curse words in it for a hundred and sixty. Gentleman. And I guess you figured if you're going to get into a situation of fight or a ruckus with somebody. You better be armed in that situation. If you're the skinny persons, and so and Davis shoots bull Nelson down. And again, there's outrage, but it's in the middle of a campaign, and so other things caused that to go away and Davis does not get reprimanded or anything done to him. And he continues to be in the service afterwards. So it's it's just one of those unusual things in my book, the war hits home that I was mentioning a little bit about southeastern Virginia. Michael Corcoran, who is a fiery Irish general is ours. Born general in the union is going to kill a soldier an officer who confronts him on a picket line and demands the countersign, and he feels like I'm so famous and well known or ought to be and certainly on. I'm not somebody ought to question that he took overwhelming offense Biden and ended up shooting down this fellow officer who died of the wound and it stirred up a rebellion. There was a one of the lesser known. But really good union generals. Agawam? George Washington Getty ends up basically stepping in or the union in the face of confederate movement through the region when the attention really should be on other things there was a mutiny. And there was very nearly the this break-up within the union forces over this death. That was again, totally preventable. If cooler heads, prevail and Getty's able to get the mutiny squelched while they're still trying to figure out what to do James long street and the confederates but a year a year or so later Corcoran's horse falls on him and crushes him and kills him. So again, you know who? Accidents of all kinds of broken Stirrup here or a horse racing and camp one chaplain is is rundown in in camp by someone. That's just raising his horse. Threw camp will initially and takes him out. So, you know, there's almost if you can think of it somebody had something like that happen to I've often been fascinated with the bull Nelson Jefferson, David Jefferson, c Davis con confrontation in the Galt house because we still have a goal town. And but here's a case where I mean, it's just a cold blooded killing. Yeah. In the in the lobby and you're right. I mean, Jefferson Davis never comes to Justice with that. But he's got powerful people with. I mean, Oliver Morton governor of Indiana is certainly going to tell the Lincoln administration. Don't you dare touch that man? If you want troops out of Indiana, you leave him alone. I mean, and so that's the deal and Davis. Goes through the war. You know in command and oboe Nelson rest up there in Maysville one thing about being a person that not I just want to say, maybe not the most popular individual either. So if you're a person who's made a lot of enemies, not a whole lot of people are going to mourn, if something that is because he did he made a lot of enemies. Nelson. And he got that name. It was well deserved. Well, they're they're there yet others we've got deaths in prison camps. Right. Tell us a little bit about those. It can be anything that you can imagine from the conditions. The weather the food the exposure. And this can be in southern prisons can be a northern prisons extreme cold conditions for men from the south that are not quite as a prepared for those one way or the other in this in the south. Of course, Andersonville is notorious, but prisons all across the south suffered from shortages and all kinds of of difficulties that plague not only the the men in the camps the guards. I mean, so there were times where conditions weren't much different for people outside than inside. But I from disease and malnutrition and all of those things that you'd expect to sometimes just guards doing whatever. Regards wanted to do the there were rumors at sometimes it seemed as if God was almost going to get a promotion to another level if they shot a prisoner because they seem to want to do it and the deadlines it existed in places like Andersonville chief you cross that deadline. You could be struck down someone who simply couldn't take it anymore. It's another form of suicide step across knowing that that might happen. But there were places where they would be a building that you were told do not come into the window of that building. And sometimes a guard would not ask questions, and if you happen to appear in the window, they took a shot, and it might result in the death. And so any again number of things that you could imagine might happen for men who are really vulnerable and Kaba prison, which is a prison that had a terrible habit of flooding in high water could create again conditions that a man may or may not be able to to extricate himself. Selma. And then what's worse courses? The terrible story. The cell Tanna afterwards where prisoners from Andersonville and Kaaba and had already been through enough. Get on a steamboat on their way, home, and the steamboat is massively over burden overladen, and and a boiler explosion and fire, and and all kinds of things occur that throw men into the water and caused them to you know, have to fend for themselves that they're going to have any chance at all. And then the explosion itself, the skulled ings all those things it would happen there that are just indicative of steam boat transportation. I don't know how to tell you there were there were almost sixteen hundred deaths on the cell town. That's more than on the Titanic. So it's it's ironic that one of the things we know almost in our culture that we think there's one of the tragedies and is a tragedy that is an iconic tragedy of this other of tragedies. Also, that's. Scale that type of scale. We have a memorial stone here in Lexington in the old a Piscopo burying ground on third street to a victim of the sultana. So there was one boy from this town who died on on that. And and here you have finally released from prison and gets his far as boarding the sultana on the Mississippi River and dies in a just are horrible death with fire as you say scalding drowning. Story that almost reminds the USS Indianapolis, and that's right. That's in the second World War. Horrific horrific up there there. I I've looked at photography of Andersonville. And you see those you can see the la- trains in the distance. And what that tells me is typhoid fever. That's what that's your basis of typhoid fever. And then you see the hideous living conditions, the tents just shabby tents, and you see the heat, and you can tell that there's going to be a lot of deaths in that in that place, like an incubation center for this thing, it is it is. And of course, we'll never know. There's a cemetery at Andersonville, we'll never know how many and then you couple that as you said with lack of nutrition the supply problem in the confederacy was horrific. I mean, they just couldn't get it even to the troops much less to their prisoners of war. And then you get Salisbury prison in North Carolina, which is a may have more deaths in that than they did Andersonville. But then on the other hand you go north and you see Johnson island out in the San dusky bay on Lake Erie. And we have a burial here in Lexington of one of John hunt. Morgan's regimental commanders ROY Clark who was captured on the great raid. Being an officer commissioned officer he was sent to Johnson island, which was all commissioned officers in here, you are in these frigid temperatures, and he dies of typhoid fever on New Year's Eve of eighteen sixty three and heaven knows how many on both sides. Well, the one of the things I did in the chapter on Justice in and that sort of thing at the end of the book is talked about the statistics that we do have for many of these camps. And so I have actually a couple of pages in fact of statistics from camp Douglas, or or, you know, Johnson's island aware or it might be and you really can at least just get again of a sample of the ways in which you know, just because you want. You didn't die on the field. And not mean that the war did not lead to your death. And those individuals are the ones we know. And as you know, as you've just pointed out, and we all pointed out, there's so many will never fully know or appreciate what happened to. No, no, no. You also have commentary in your book about soldiers. Of course, sir. Some like on the sultana going home, but some just going home. That's right. Who something happens? They own thorough or there, maybe didn't reenlist even and and so they're going home. And again, they wouldn't be where they are without it. And they're on a steamer, and for whatever reason they end up not on that steamer anymore, and sometimes it can be that they just stumbled off in the darker at night. And there was one sort of poignant story of someone they think may maybe even with sleepwalking and went off, of course, sometimes someone got overwhelmed. I mean, you've got those paddle wheels. Moving on those paddle wheel steamers, and you can throw yourself into the paddle wheels. There were instances of that. So a deliberate decision to do that. And sometimes just make of sharp bend in the river and person that was there one minutes. Not there the next and by the. Time they realize it. It's too late to go back and find them at least with any hope of surviving. I think one of the more horrific deaths was a man who was on a boat off the coast of of the Gulf Coast, and he's out with another friend. We know it because that friend survived, but he fell out of the water, and they think a shark got him. So he didn't survive just a boating accident just falling out of the boat. And and they think shark got him. But again, you could go down the list in a we haven't talked about storms, but lightning any kind of wind damage is that knocked down trees. And of course of men are camped in the areas and the tree is struck by lightning or the tree falls. There are stories of individuals some of them who miraculously survive. And that's how we know what happened but their comrades don't fatigue duty. If you're trying to build earthern fortifications you need soaring. They need a lot of wood. So you're out dropping trees. And so then these details they're out there working in the tray starts to fall. Somebody says timber a look out or whatever they're going to say in somebody doesn't get out of the way, and they'll use phrases like they were mashed crushed. But mashed is one of those words you'll see a lot. And then there's this one poor fellow. And I guess, you know, it's his time because he's he's warned to get out of the way of this tree only to then run into the direction where this tree is falling. And so he doesn't survive the second tree. Yeah. You know to. I remember when I was working on that book on the retreat from Gettysburg Lee on his way back into Virginia would have gone and basically occupied Winchester, but for the fact that because of its frequent occupation by federal trucks and confederate troops. It was overrun with typhoid fever. And so he decided to stay away from Winchester Virginia and camp at Bunker Hill, which is right near the West Virginia now West Virginia Virginia border, but I mean, here's here are civilians now suffering because of the disease caused by the contamination of the water system by the armies that had what that poor town changed hands. What eleven to fifteen times during the war as more than that, supposedly. So and. So there's those deaths. War, is it civilians caught in battlefield situations. Where again, they're not the target, and it can be as simple as just being in the wrong place at the wrong time between skirmish lines or whatever might be happening in this one tale from Suffolk. For instance, again is a woman gets caught trying to run with her children to safety between the lines. And no one knows which sides bullets for the ones that struck her down. But the next scene you have is her husband bringing her lifeless body into town with the children trailing behind wagon. And she would not have died had it not been for the war. And she's of course, just one example, I give examples of people in Atlanta during the siege of Atlanta that are killed again, if shell hits something, and and penetrates the house or causes some structure to collapse, and then you're in the vicinity, it may be something that you don't even have to be struck by the shell today. Why it it Vicksburg down the list? Oh, yes. Valens of one panicked civilian runs into the swamp and drown. Yeah. You know in this happened for people of color that you know, again, Aaron same kind of circumstances. And in that case, the woman at panicked was a black woman who went running into the swamp to get away from it. And she she drowned Vicksburg, you know, you're siege of forty seven days, and you've got artillery shells coming in of major size. These are these are big shells coming in and exploding twenty four hours a day and on a civilian population and a military popular civilian population. Ten is obviously military, but the collateral damage is two civilians, and and and again there are times where sales fall short and kill your own troops, right guns. Burst tubes burst and kill the cruise. So you have people that are actually serving the piece meant ten ten on the opponent and ended intense? Come on you. It's just the way that some of these circumstances went O'Brien, I'll tell you. It's been a fabulous time having. Bryan, spoke to the Kentucky civil war roundtable last night, and was had a huge crowd, and they loved every minute of you being here, and I want to thank you very much. Well, this may I have to tell you, though, one more thing for we close my favorite story of this book is about the fellows carrying an open cask of gun powder on his show and his smoking and. The trouble that he had that. Thank goodness nothing. Like that happened in my visits to Lexington. Thank you for your hospital. Everybody, welcome Brian. And for everybody. The book is in glorious passages non-combat deaths in the American civil war. And it's a university of Kansas publication. It's a beautiful book. And I would encourage you to go out and get one again. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Become an American hero. Who participates in our mission by joining us at witnessing history dot ORG. Download our documentaries and free teacher education materials that conform to grade level education standards at PBS, learning dot ORG follow witnessing history on Facebook, Twitter and linked in.
Let It Roll: Count Basie, Charlie Parker, Big Joe Turner - How Kansas City Vice Birthed Kansas City Jazz
"You are listening to the I'm in love with that Song podcast part of the Pantheon podcast network. My name is Brad Page and each episode of this podcast I pick one of my favorite songs and we explore it together hoping to discover what makes a great song great. We don't get into music theory here. So no musical knowledge is really required. All you gotTa do is listen and see what we uncover on this episode we're listening to attract it is without a doubt a stone cold classic. This is Marvin Gaye and I heard it through the grapevine. Tom. Marvin Gaye grew up in a housing project in Washington DC HIS FATHER WAS A. He was also extremely abusive and beat Marvin a lot Marvin started singing in church. When he was about four years old, he spent a short stint in the Air Force sang with a handful of doo-wop groups eventually relocated to Chicago than Detroit where he met. Berry Gordy and signed with Tom Lehrer records he was like an all purpose utility player there he. Sang he wrote songs even played drums for motown acts like stevie wonder his first single under his own name. Let your conscience. Be Your Guide was released in nineteen sixty one. He had some big hits on the RB charts but never made it to number one on the billboard top one hundred until I. heard it through the Grapevine in nineteen, sixty eight. I heard it through the grapevine had its own long and winding journey. It was written by Barrett Strong and Norman Whitfield in nineteen sixty six. We've talked about Whitfield strong on this podcast before smokey Robinson and the miracles were the first take a crack at it in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, six, although their version didn't actually come out until nineteen, sixty eight. Make. Somebody. Between the two. You know. Same. Not. MOTOWN head Honcho Berry Gordy didn't think this track was strong enough to be a single. So that's how it ended up getting set aside for two years. Marvin Gaye was actually the next person to record this song but again, Berry Gordy rejected it. So the song was shelved yet again. But Norman Whitfield wouldn't give up on the song. He retooled it into a more UPTEMPO number with more of a traditional motown feel and we recorded this new version with Gladys Knight and the pips. It was Gladys Knight's version that was finally released as a single in nineteen sixty seven. Can't. So interestingly, it was this third attempt to record the song that was actually the first version released. So, Marvin Gaye has the song in the can braided go but Berry Gordy sees Marvin as more of a romantic singer and just doesn't believe this song fits Marvins, image. The song eventually does turn up eighteen months after he recorded it as an album track on Marvin's nineteen sixty eight. L.. P. In the groove. But some DJ's discover the track and start playing it a lot and it catches on and Berry, Gordy relents and releases it as a single in October nineteen, sixty eight and it becomes motown's biggest number one hit. I. Heard it through. The Grapevine is pretty uncharacteristic for motown hit. especially at this time, motown's specialized in upbeat energetic pop songs that appeal to both black and white audiences. I heard it through the grapevine is almost the opposite of that. It's dark and Moody full of tension and anguish that never resolve with lyrics like. Plan to let me go not much longer. Would you be mine and just about to lose my mind? You can feel the singer is on the precipice on the cusp of something bad. That's about to happen. The whole song puts you on the edge of your seat waiting for that other shoe to drop and the songs over we're left hanging as to how the story ends. It's a masterwork doubt suspicion and paranoia. Norman Whitfield produced the track and one of his production tricks worked brilliantly on this song he forced Marvin to sing the Song Higher Register in a higher key than Marvin was used to or even comfortable with this meant that Marvin had to strained hit those high notes and that's what makes the tension and anxiety and Marvin's vocals feel so real and will explore that as we dig into the. Song besides Marvin's vocals, the track features background vocals by Jackie, Hicks, Marlene, Barrow, and Louvain damps strings by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra and the legendary funk brothers him in Oregon by Earl Van Dyke World Sir Electric Piano by Johnny Smith Richard Pistol, Allen and Uriel Jones on drums. The Great James Jamerson on. Bass Jack Alford on percussion. We've talked about Jack on this podcast before and Joe Messina on Guitar. The Sun grabs you right from the very start one whack on the drums then a slow vamp on the electric piano followed by a simple beat on the bass drum and hi hat. Okay let's breakdown this introduction. One of the most famous introductions in history I. here's the electric piano. nope. Be insistent pulse of that low note it's already applying a nervous energy to track. On. Just before the vocals come in the keyboard parts thickens up. There's a little bit of distortion on that electric piano, which gives it some grit. Also, there's no bass guitar yet the keyboard is handling all the low and so far the drums are playing very simply. Next up is a very jittery timbering, just adding to that nervous energy. Then the guitar comes in here's what it's playing. And finally right before the vocals start the horns blast in. Let's go back and listen to that whole thing altogether. Back. Now once the first first starts the keyboard stopped playing that low out. ooh. Or? And that's where the Bass Guitar comes in. WHOA. Now, they could have decided to have the base in there from the very. But instead they chose to let the keyboards carry most of the weight in the intro. Then when the Bass Guitar finally does come in the keyboards back off to leave room for the base. So nobody's stepping on each other's toes. That's just one of the things that make the funk brothers, such masters at what they did knowing when to leave space for each other. and of course, that's a legendary James Jamerson on Bass Guitar. Let's go back and pick it up from that I I. would. Let's check out the string part. During the verse the strings are adding accents around the vocals. Again, they're leaving space for Marvin's voice. The strings were written and arranged by Paul reiser another behind the scenes player who wrote so many great string parts for all those classic motown hits. WHO Once. We reached the chorus, the strings fill in more. Let's focus in on the drums here they're playing an essential part in creating the mood for the song. There's also some Conga drums. Let's bring those back into the mix. and. The Guitar is simply playing accents on the second and fourth beats of each measure. That's where you'd normally find the snare drum. And we can't forget about those backing vocals that start on that first course. Let's go back and just listened to those. Took me I. Say. Yes A. Great. Do. It through the Great. Who? Heard it through the grapevine not much longer. Would you? New. Well it's about time we focus on the main event. Let's listen to Marvin's vocal on the second I all by itself remember how he's pushing himself to sing outside of his normal range here and how that adds tension to his performance. Man Cry. But these. Are Caned hold inside. Losing. In my life you see. How Much to me. You could. Me Oh. That you. Want. I love his vocal part there. Let's go back and listen to that. The grape. Does the mountain lose my mind. Son. Of what you're here. But I came. been confused. If it's true. Please tell me there. Do you play. Let me go for the other guy. Before. Both the Electric Piano and Bass Guitar do some Nice. Little work there. Let's back up and hear that again. Burn. and. I. Heard it through the Grapevine Marvin Gaye. This song would become the biggest hit single in motown history at that point not bad for song that Berry Gordy didn't even want to release. Now you would think that Marvin would have seen this as vindication, but instead, it just made Marvin more unsatisfied. He was very dismissive of his success. He felt like he was just a puppet for motown even told a reporter once that he didn't deserve the success, his frequent singing partner Tammi Terrell was suffering from a brain tumor she collapsed into his arms on stage in nineteen, sixty seven, and that tumor would eventually take her life. Marvin sank into a deep depression almost quit the music business. He was even seriously considering joining the Detroit Lions football team. Instead, he went back into the studio and recorded the what's going on album. But that is a story for another episode. Thanks for joining the for the I'm in love with that Song podcast along with the other shows here on the Pantheon podcast network it means a lot to us to know the ear out there listening. You can keep up to date on this show by checking our facebook page just search for the I'm in love with that Song podcast or on twitter at pop staff tweets and check out the pop with Ken Mills podcast. That's a great show too. You can find all the previous episodes of this podcast on our website love that song podcast dot com or just subscribe to the show in the podcast player of your choice and while you're there, leave a review I, always appreciate that. Thanks again for listening stay positive stay hopeful and don't forget to support the artist you love by buying their music. They need you now more than ever. Here's the full uninterrupted version of Marvin gays. I. Heard it through the Grapevine. Dhamma. Booby. Man. Anew. Only. A. You. Wouldn't. A. Do you. would. High. That public is greetings from rocks back pages in swinging London town brought to you by the Pantheon podcast network as Bob Dylan sang we were so much older then way younger than that now can possibly be true. No but we all young at heart and we do have heaps of fun when we invite special guests to join us and discuss everything that's new and cool on rocks back pages the online library of music. Rising guests have included petro boy, Neil tennant film director Mary Harron ramones manager Danny Fields Creation founder, Alan, McGee, and countless stars from the world's music press. These large life legends have looked back with US some law schools food press the lost sixty years listen to great clips from our library of audience views with everyone from Jimi Hendrix Joni Mitchell to Kate Bush and cut cobaine his Neil tennant on the pet shop boys we. A certain amount of hostility because I've been a journalist. So people thought it was an authentic writing. These two clever guy for playing playing the industry a bit. So please do join us every other week for an hour of unabashed found boys celebration of popular music and deeply humbled opinions from your co host. Bonnie Hoskins, not prenatal and Jasper Murison Bowie real in those years with the rocks back pages Putt cost.
A Bowl of Soul A Mixed Stew of Soul Music Broadcast - 03-19-2021 - Continuation of The Ladies of R&B. March is Women's History Month
"It's finally spring. And i'm saying goodbye. Snow hello adventure enduring the honda dream garage spring. You can get epic deals on your favourite honda model ready to get rugged off road in all wheel drive honda. Suv like the crv hr v. pilot sport or redesigned rich. I want to take spring road trip. Then checkout fuel-efficient turbocharged civic or cord. Say you buy to winter and hello to a new honda. Don't miss huge savings during the honda dream garage. Spring bed now at your local honda dealer. Today's broadcast of a bowl of soul mixed sue of so music is brought to you by pago. Pago is the easiest way for you to monetize your podcast providing podcasters with a flat rate for ad space. So you always know how much you get when you clued. An ad from pod go apply today to become a member immediately connected with advertisers. that fit your audience. that's pago dot. Co at p. d. go dot co and. Be sure to add our podcast in the. How did you hear about pod. Go section of the application. You've reached the right place. A destination call also. It's the biro an ex. You know what's next. It's a bowl of soul a mix of so music a hey. This is lorraine from laura rain in the caesars detroit. You are listening to a bowl of soul a mix do of so music with your host professor. T love power. You're listening to not just one. Train must be limited coffee shoe. Got the magic. Oh the league. Soon demanding past Must be eighty. He's sure got the magic touch and this is a bowl of soul a mixed to of soul music. This is professor t love coming at. You want to once again celebrating. The ladies of soul because march is women's history month and we celebrate right here on a bowl of seoul. The mob leads who were active from nineteen sixty two one thousand nine hundred seventy and they did this single talking about my baby must be a magician and that was with the lineup of wanda rajas and bogan and katherine anderson and the past members of the mob. Let's gladys horton katherine anderson. Georgina tillman wanda rogers and bogan juanita. Coward and georgia dobbins and you know they were founded in one thousand nine hundred sixty and they were members of a glee club at inkster high school in inkster michigan and some of the group's early hits were written by band members. And some of motown's rising singer songwriters such as m- smokey robinson and marvin gaye. Who played drums on a majority of earlier recordings and they were eclipsed in popularity by groups like the supremes but model. Let's all the ones that were able to deliver in the early days before the supremes had big hits with please mr postman and let me tell you that was that earned them a million selling gold single from the recording industry association of america and we celebrate the mobile. Let's right here on a bowl of soul and coming up next. We're gonna be talking about some free love from miss. Jean carne who celebrated a birthday in march and we celebrate miss g card right here on a bowl so she was born march. Fifteenth nineteen forty seven. Here is miss. Jean carne talking about free love and this is a bowl of seoul. This is jonathan winstead. And you're listening to a bowl of soul a mix of so hold music. Don't pass up average child and my love be rest of the day get experience again the best and good. Take a listen to me home. Just all your look dog. Just all who Celebrate sarah perkins and you know. She celebrated her birthday on march fifteenth of this month. And we celebrate her as a r&b end jazz woman woman of soul jazz and we celebrate her. And you know jean. Kahn was encouraged by her parents to sing. And at the age of four she became a member of her church choir now. She learned how to play piano and the clarinet and bassoon and she mastered all of those instruments. She attended booker. T. washington high school in atlanta georgia. And she also learned they say to speak russian fluently. But you know g card. She got older. You know young adult years. She had planned on furthering her studies at juilliard school of music. Right here in new york city and she met and married jazz pianist. Doug carn and you know the couple. The couple later divorced as she became a featured vocalist in his jazz fusion band and they moved to los angeles california where she did four albums with her husband called. Infant is spirit of the new land revelation and adam's apple on black on black jazz ovation label but in nineteen seventy six gene. Corn was signed to kenneth. Gamble kenny gamble. And leon huff philadelphia international records label with her debut album in one thousand. Nine hundred seventy seven called. Jean carne of which you heard her single free love. That song went on to become number. Twenty three on the rb charts. And several of the album's tracks were very hot and dot. Considerable radio play but in june one thousand nine hundred seventy eight. She had a second album called happy to be with you. And which i'm gonna play this hot single that was sampled by brand nubian called. Don't let it go to your head and right here on the bowl of soul. We celebrate miss. Jean corn and happy birthday to miscall. We celebrate home with this single. Don't let it go to your head and this is a bowl of soul so again. I walked into the room with no expectations justice. Don on everybody in here. I am at a bowl of soul with professor teela. However this this don't let it go let go. I can't live without you. Don't mckay given to you pay mom off. Don't let go go. You hate donate and berlin. We celebrate this g. called celebrating. March is women's history month and coming up next another gospel. Turn into a jazz singer. Miss debbie taylor with nine thousand nine hundred seventy five single talking about. I don't wanna leave you and this is a bowl of this is a man d folks. Y'all checking on a bowl of so one of the hottest. Dj's in the land. Professor t love two Could go saw won't whoa were fighting a can't go on our pro try. They say you never miss your water to the draft because you know what was even tyrwhitt sounded hungry too. I love. But i didn't have the heart. I don't wanna leave the baby and the love sold goatee. The lipscomb chills. Run down line don. So we celebrate this. Debbie taylor also known as mattie bill gavin born june twenty. Third one thousand nine hundred forty. Seven and norfolk virginia. And she's been active since nineteen sixty four and you know. This song was a hit for her. On the aristotle records label. I don't wanna leave you. Which was written by david jordan in new york and with a full band and orchestra which featured the late great mr earl van dyke of the funk brothers from motown and this song was leased to arista records in a single rose to number thirty two on the rb chart and number one hundred on the pop chart at the end of nineteen seventy five. But you debbie. Taylor also had a career singing in late nineteen sixties Working at royal studio which was owned by. Willie mitchell who is who was the owner of hi records where you had an people's and a al green and her first session in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight produced attracts i get the blues. The last laugh is on the blues. Which was on the decca record label. And she did a song. Check yourself on the flip side was wait until i'm gone. Which was written. By isaac hayes and david porter who produced an unreleased version for love for stax artists ruby johnson but titlists version of check yourself reached number thirty seven on the rb chart in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight and from there in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine. She started working up in new york based at the label called. Gwp and her first record. Never gonna let him know. Launched the label. Gwp reached eighteen on the national rb chart and number eighty six on the pop chart we celebrate. W taylor right here on a bowl of solar. When she was a teenager she was performing with the jazz trios that was led by her high school music teacher. They say by the name of regional walker and also she taught with the gospel group who performed at the one thousand nine hundred sixty five nineteen sixty four nine thousand nine hundred sixty five world's fair right here in new york city and we celebrate debbie taylor because march is women's history wealth and she is a lady of soul coming up. Nex this song. I still love it till this day. The late great miss betty right doing keep love new and this is a bowl of saul. This is eric. B turner and you're listening to professor t love on a bone of seoul amidst to of soul music. You're listening to up georgia. build it. S rush get so cherish because spoke Cuba gave into right right here on the goal of so we celebrate. Bessie regina norris. Also known as betty wright was born december twenty first one thousand nine hundred fifty three and she passed away last year or may tempt one hundred twenty and we celebrate the great. R&b a song writer ground vocalist miss betty wright who rose to fame in the nineteen seventies with hits such as clean up woman and then she produced her own album on her own record label. Tonight is the night and she is known to use the whistle register. When you hear her saying she could just get up to that top of that key your this song your love keep love new was off of the album called for you to from nineteen eighty nine and we celebrate the late. Great miss betty right and you need to know why you need solicit to a bowl of saw from fifty fifty fifty a little bit of the six to the sixtieth. The sixty thrown in with similar seven. Seventy seventy mix well with the world the eighty bring to boil and just judge of the future future. That's our recipe for a bowl of soul. So this talk yup doc. Don't think we'll this to say. Don't state boys stay close data the door the name first thing eight. Miss jackson talk you both in a meeting. Talk it devote. Do you realize it is thirty. Five years is the thirty. Fifth anniversary of janet jackson's breakthrough album control of which this single came off of it. Control was her third studio album in nineteen eighty six and it song was released by a and m records as the album. Second single you know. Janet was she got with jimmy. Jam and terry lewis. They help to get hope bone going baby and this single who the first and last thirty seconds emphasize get up. I feel like being a sex machine. But you know what i hear. I hear references of atomic dog on this on this song if you listened to closely but this single peaked at number three on the us billboard hot one hundred and number one on the hot rb hip pop songs chart and this is janet jackson's signature song is says my name a baby. It's janet miss jackson. If you're nasty. I love that i love that. Let me tell you that. Propelled this album propel janet jackson into the stratosphere and to this day she is. I would consider like the queen of r&b pop and this is abolished. So we celebrate the legacy of ms janet jackson on the thirty fifth anniversary of control. And coming up next this young lady. Her music still stands the test of time and it always still sounds good to me. Still sounds fresh. A leah talking about you betta rock the boat and this is a bowl of soul. Hi there this is kathy cousins. If you wanna listen to classic soul an independent. R&b music you reach the right place. A bowl of soul a mixed stew of soul music Blue blue's includes stroke. Turn put right here audible. So we celebrate the lake. Great leeann houten dana houten with her single. The boat which came out in was offer her album in two thousand and one self title album and you know prior to its release as a single rock. The boat chartered as an album cut and peaked at number fourteen on the billboard. Hot one hundred in the week of january fifth in the song stayed on the chart for twenty five weeks said alita dan. How was born january sixteenth. Thousand nine hundred seventy nine and she passed away on august twenty fifth two thousand and one and she is credited with helping to redefine contemporary arm. Be and hip hop earning her. The nickname princess of rb and queen of urban pop. We celebrate a leah dana out as one of the ladies of soul celebrating march is women's history month in coming up on a bowl of sola mixed up so music radio network on lot. Three sixty five and wanna give you all shot out of thank you for tuning in and blowing up the radio station and we got something special for you coming up on sunday. Where we got the infamous jon. Marcus of jazz. He's a dj of jazz infinity. Which is a smooth jazz station coming to you at six pm on march twenty first doing his stay given us some smooth jazz helping us to kick back and relax was some cools move music. Check this out coming soon to the bowl of social network. Jazz vinnie with yours. Truly john watts beginning sunday march twenty first at six. Pm eastern s. eleven pm in the uk midnight in paris. Ten am in tokyo facebook page for more information jazz infinity with john mark jazzy. That can't wait so make sure you tune into a bowl. The soul mixed to of so music radio network on line three sixty five. Just look for bowl at six. Pm eastern standard time. You're going to hear jazz. Infinity with yours truly dj. Jon marcus coming up next we got. We got new music. Your i love this segment because you know we could to hear some of the flyers independent music going strong for twenty twenty one coming up next. We're gonna play this new single from our lindsay featuring my girl laura rain has a nice hit with closer to the wind. She is featured on this single call claiming we celebrate them both and we celebrate lorraine for march is women's history moments. She is a lady of soul and this is a bowl of so. Oh the who can we split. Soon you do only much awesome cruise Kid long talk. Give a use a fire soul from two detroiters lorraine and al lindsay talking about claiming you know these two met through the magic of social media and they been on the music scene for quite a while you know they both have produced some good great music and you know. Of course you know. Laura rain from the group lorraine into caesar's and they have toured the world sharing sharing a talented delivering four albums. But you know what. I'm glad that they did this. Collaboration together it is beautiful. It is so full. Make sure you support our lizzy featuring laura raid on this single claim it your your better claim that relationship right here on a bowl of soul celebrating women's history month and make sure you get that single claim it. I'm sure you can find it on. I tunes apple music amazon. Just make sure you get that song as a nice soulful tune and coming up nex we got some new music from dahlia riley. Talking about it's like and this is a bowl of so. Hey everybody in sugar miskelly. You're listening to a bowl of soul with professor t love. Explain your addiction dictionary. If you asked me nine not as talking at heart feeling. I wanted to gave you owe it to the corner store too much closer than i do. And this is a patch you make me say everything will pay a deal with data and you make you say touch me and came with no Cancelled the pain. Y'all thanks mom. Try to find a way. Oh last week. I wou some new music from dally rally who hails from gardena california. She is a los angeles. Who was born in gardena california. Make sure you support dal year riley by going to spotify youtube music apple music teaser for her new single. It's like and i'm gonna leave you. Were the classic eisley brothers tomb. Call make me say from tiffany by no and this is a bowl of soul. Have been to see your elbow last Who maybe soon did you rule you wherever you make bed. Same concern you off through the change your life. We're not all maybe us your your baby girl. Yup sure music cut dishes of the eisley brothers. Classic make me say it again from tipping tiffany by make sure you purchase her single on amazon and this is a hot new single for twenty twenty one and this is the end of a bull is soul. Make sure you follow me on twitter at a bowl of soul. Make sure you like my facebook page. Abol soul a mixed stew of so music. Make sure you hit me up on g mail at a bowl of soul at g mail dot com and make sure you tune into a bowl of soul on live three sixty five. Just look for bola soul and make sure you catch the lineup. You'll catch on sunday. Gospel vibrations with melted jordan at three pm. The fastest sixty minutes of gospel in inspiration. And make sure you tune in at six pm. But jon marcus move. Jazz show called jazz. Infinity your giving you some classics smooth jazz and make sure you tune in on wednesdays at seven pm for the heavy storm. Quite storm from yours. Truly melvin jordan at seven pm from seven to nine pm and make sure you get some relationship advice on love sex and relationships at ten pm with the professor and yours truly professor t love and make sure you catch up with a bowl of salt by going to a bowl of soul dot com and download some soul to go and catch a bowl of soul on fridays and six pm eastern standard time on prn dot fm progressive rep network. You can catch me six. Pm eastern standard time three pm pacific. This is professor t love. I hope you're enjoying celebrating. The ladies of soul and jazz celebrating march is women's history month. This is love we catch up with you again. With another segment of the ladies of soul celebrating march is women's history month have a great weekend and chow. And you're listening to a bowl of soul. You're listening to finally spring and i'm saying goodbye snow. Hello adventure and during the honda dream garage spring event. You can get epic deals on your favorite honda model. Ready to get rugged. Take the off road in an all wheel drive honda. Suv like the crv. Hr v. pilot aspect or redesigned rich. I wanna take spring road trip. The checkout fuel-efficient turbocharged civic or say goodbye winter and hello to a new honda. Don't miss huge savings during the honda dream garage spring yvette now at your local honda dealer finally spraying and i'm saying goodbye. Snow hello adventure and during the honda dream garage spring event. You can get epi deals on your favorite honda model. Ready to get rugged. Take the offroad in an all wheel drive honda as you like the crv hr v. pilot sport or redesigned rich. I want to take spring road trip. Then checkout fuel-efficient turbocharged civic or core say goodbye to winter and hello to a new honda. Don't miss huge savings during the honda dream garage spring back now at your local honda dealer.
Episode 232 The Moratorium Presents The Zodiac pt. 1
"Hey freak stirs and free kits. It's tim from the moratorium. Do you like the sweet sounds of our witty banter in your ears every week. Well head on over to our patriot on and for only three dollars a month you can get even more in the director's cuts of our movie episodes. On average that's twenty minutes more of our wise cracking jive talking and lip flapping laughter straight to your ear holes go to the moratorium dot com and click on our patriae. Only and you'll find five awesome tears with tons of goodies. You can also find our t. spring link on the website for even more awesome merge. Thank you for your support now on with the show. Hey guys this is krista from the moratorium and you like grizzly gore mysteries. Of course you do. That is why. I suggested you subscribe to my blog. Suspended animation dormitories waiting to be told we had the moratorium offer a number of laura tales from ax men running around new orleans to phantoms in texarkana. And if you're feeling especially generous head over to our patriots where for just a couple of bucks. A month you can help the moratorium grow and that would be pretty kick ass and remember long leg. Vhs all right guys. Welcome to the moratorium. I'm tim kornmann. And today we got something special going on. Jason had to be away this week. So we brought in some backup. Why because. I don't think we need to take day off. All right. The producers at this damn company insists that we worked tirelessly to bring you quote unquote entertainment. Cue the music and three to one already forgotten persona. That's the match made in a bathroom floating into the void so for the next month or two six weeks or so. Jason is going to be in and out and we are going to be bringing in some extra people to help out but today we're bringing back krista funk and today we're gonna be talking about serial killers but we're going to be talking about serial killers and how they may relate to the movies that were based on their true accounts so everybody give it up for christa fung. You can't hear anybody you just. They're just they're they're they're. They're cheering for me. I hear or it's indigestion. sure which. So krista yes one of your favorite things to talk about. And i know we've talked endlessly about it. We've already talked about this week. Even is serial killers. You read our blog ninety. Yeah call. it's called till you should already know you bitches but we're going to tell you. It's called suspended animation. Doormat stories waiting to be told. You sound just like the recording. That i have in front of every damn show. You guys should be ashamed of yourself for not already knowing the go over and read the blog or some really cool interesting stuff out there. I love to read what you have to say. Now i'm not a serial killer expert. I there said. I know that you. You don't necessarily consider yourself an expert. You've got a whole lot more knowledge than i do. But tell everybody who are we talking about. Today we're talking about the zodiac killer. Done and i know that he's been talked about talked about talked about over and over and over again but endlessly he's interesting. Yeah how long you've been reading up on zodiac sta way too long. I don't know i've been inert firm. I was a we child. My molly right to me about the zodiac cyprus. To go to sleep either my bedtime stories. Go to bed the zodiacs. She was sitting there and she was like once upon a time. Delay ho california. Don't be hanging out on lovers lane bad. I don't think i ever visited a lovers lane. Well at least not with a date. This is because you grew up in a time when there was like actual you know shit to do. You didn't have to find. The lovers laying them went to the arcade played with other knobs. So tell us about the zodiac. At tell when did he become active zodiac to my understanding popped up on the screen in july fourth nineteen sixty nine the fourth of july fourth of july. So everybody's partying. But there was a couple darlene. Farren and michael maggio. I'm actually. I'm going to be honest. I i actually don't know how you pronounce his last name. I'm sure he's gonna hold it against work. We're gonna go with michelle. Okay that's wrong. You know i apologize. Were these two that were actually watching the like the fireworks were they in their car watching the fireworks were they out and she came to pick him up and okay. It's my understanding. They had gone to a burger place or something like that. It was cheap date it. Yeah it was really crowded. And joe assuming the highest as name Said that there was somebody following them around town. You know like they There was a car following them and they had to lose this car like showed up at the burger joint where they were at and his way of getting her to a secluded location for himself. Interesting that you save that. Because i mean it's not new this at the time this came about later but You know grace robert ray smith. He believed that zodiac new. Darling parents she was really popular and everybody liked her and She was married but very flirtatious. Was running around with michael joe but because gray smith believes the zodiac killer was arthur leigh allen and allen was living with somebody at the time that lived very close. Where darling varun work and her sister said that type prior to her murder norling farren had a a painting party. I now people come over and they paying in the in the movie. It's funny because mark ruffalo is like what's painting party in an giang john hall's like Over in paints and mark rule is like sounds. Like a terrible honey. Well depends on what you're painting painting. Hoax sculptures survey shows up in there. You know. I don't know. I mean they're they're paying. I guess but The sister says you know normal situation. You're painting you probably not wearing your best clothing but this one do shows up wearing a suit is obviously out of place right. This do shows up in a suit. And he sits in the corner and doesn't say anything to anybody. And you know the sisters asking darling farren out. And she's like he gives me the creeps but whatever but then you're they are getting chased around town on july fourth. Her and michael. Michaud you know. At first he thinks that maybe it's her husband but she's she tells them that you know that's a start her husband but she is visibly worried about who this person is and given this painting party own whatnot I'm gonna go ahead. And assume that darling farren had seen this guy several times before i think he followed her around and i think he gave her the creeps. So darling farren and michael maggio ended up at the blue rock springs golf course. It's on the way out of town is a pretty secluded. It's it's it's not well lit up and there in the parking lot and at first there were some other people there but they left and pretty soon it was just the two of them and okay there hanging out and joe said another car drove up but was normal like hang out. I mean you said other people were there. So i wouldn't really even raise. Suspicion of another car is kind of casually pulled up. It'd be like oh somebody else coming into this location to make out and party. Well nasih oh. If i remember correctly he described it. As this car. Didn't exactly like pool into the parking lot will next to them like it pulled up stocked. It just kind of idol there for furnishes there and then spent on nothing hinky about that. Of course they've been chased around all night and this leaves majo- wondering what the hell is going on. And he's asking her you know and she's like it's it's fi- it's nobody. Don't even worry about it. You know blah blah blah and the next thing you know this car comes back this time. It pulls up doesn't pull in beside the or anything just pulls up parks. A guy gets out and michaud. I thinks as kind of relieved. Actually because he thinks it's a policeman and you you know so there's a part of him like oh it's just policeman. What are your kids. Do in no here night. You know those around midnight right on for the july his late and he he reaches his wallet. And i don't know if he actually said anything to our but he was freaked out and had been freaked out and was rather relieved that it was an officer. I'm not a serial killer except if wasn't officer and and it was a serial killer and he just pulled out a gun and started shooting them. You know was through the car or into the car i mean. Was it like through the window or michelle. Roll down okay. Does like standing beside the car. Yeah he walked right up to the window and just started shooting in my mind to i. I kind of vision the The movie the town that dirt at sundown. Oh because that killer also had like a bag over is has is you know i it just in my mind. That kind of speaks like this that picture. I'm not saying the zodiac. For some reason. I'm seeing this guy but the that the holy totally different killer right whereas zooming. They're two different killers. Gazette was in texas texarkana. Yeah we'll cover that hopefully another day back entree zodiac kills He doesn't kill botha right he. He shoots both of them but doesn't kill motion measure. He failed to to kill my own show. I was watching a documentary. Awhile back about The zodiac in my mom comes over while this has gone on. And they were interviewing michael maggio. And he's telling his story in you know. My mom doesn't know what i'm watching. She doesn't know who he is. Or what would stockman's abou- she. Here's him speaking in my own show. While he speaks a little different way is it because he was shot several times. Yes ed or he's joe sounds out. It was a weird side effect of being shot. All of a sudden he he became french. I hear that happens. Some people on almost weird. You know jeremy raji. My ankle wants and all of a sudden. I can speak. Portuguese was so weird. I don't know but that's like a weird lake traumatic side effect your trauma but whenever there's no okay little known facts right here gentlemen up. Well i mean the same thing with with reagan. She could speak latin right demonic possession. You know what she do. She just peed in front of her mom brings right. So where the hell was i or was it. We're talking about Mojo his the interview. Your mom's i wonder who the hell's this french guy. Yeah yeah so. She hears him speaking and you know he. He sounds differently. She said whoa. That guy is definitely done some drugs in his time. Though bobby's friend right. I mean like here. It's possible and understandably maybe even but i'm sure that That that probably has more to do with the fact that he took a bullet through that she went through his tongue and lodged in his jaw. So yeah we're the other four bullets into his body right. He was shot five times china. Remember how many times. They were both shot several times. And not only that but killer walks away walks back to his car. He turns around and he sees majo- moving he's like trying to get into the back seat or something don't know he's moving and and zodiac could see it and he went back over to the car and put more willis in each of them Jeez and then went back to his car and drove away. Okay we'll here's where. I got that by the way i was looking at a meeting. Zodiac killer dot com and. This is where i was just looking here. Where i got five is five shots. Didn't necessarily say that five shots went in to measure. Oh so yeah. It says after five shelves or fire. The man walked slowly back to his car. Majo- screamed in pain. At which point the man returned and fired two more shots into each victim was the chick dead before the the now is still alive. No she i think she either died on the way to the hospital or died shortly thereafter. But like they were both to live. Michelle live Of course but just now friends. He's just how friend and man. I don't know here's where okay spooky shit so zodiac drives to pay phone. Can he calls the vallejo whose permanent and you should hear the the woman the dispatcher. Tell the story about taking his call. She's one of you. People have heard his voice and she said that he spoke in a row monotone voice. You know she tried to ask him some questions but he spoke over her and he told her he wanted to report a murder. Vinnie corrects himself. He says no. I wanna report a double murder. A he is assemblyman. He's killed both of them and he proceeds to give her directions on where the pollution go to find them where they are and then at the end he says i also killed those two kids. Last christmas he spoke in a monotone. It's like he had rehearsed it or was reading what he was saying. He had a very non emotional voice. You know his first words. Were i wanna report a double murder. If you'll go one mile east on columbus parkway to the public park. And i said yes sir. We have a report of a shooting in that area and he said You'll find the kids in brown car day. Were shot with a nine millimeter luger and also killed those kids last year. The two kids last christmas were betty lou. Jensen and david fairytales. Were killed and bonanza california Leave it was in december. Did he state who the i mean. He said the two kids back in last christmas. How did we he said. I also killed those kids last christmas now. Valencia lejla right by each other and Venezia has these cold cases. These two teenagers who were shot on a secluded road it was lake herman road and it was on the outskirts of town. It was within venezia's believed but they're out there and in this case zodiac successfully kill. Both of them were. They shot as well. He shot them. Yes betty lou. Jensen's body was found several from the car. Like twenty or so feet or something like that from the car and she had been shy. I think five times in the back now so it looks like she was killed fleeing the car so i can only assume it you know. He went up there and started shooting. Faraday and betty lou. Jensen bailed out the car and took a running and he turned he turned the gun on her shot. Her because faraday was still. I think he was like. I think the door might have been open or something like that. I'm not i can't rightfully remember. But he was still in the car but she'd managed to get away get out but he had shot and killed her. And so i think win. This guy said. I also killed those two kids. Last christmas i think venezia small enough town And it was so close to that crime that they could only assume that he was referring to johnson and barry okay here on at wikipedia on the zodiac killer. Just this wikipedia says the first murders widely as tributed to the zodiac killer. Where the shootings high school students betty lou jensen and david arthur faraday on december twentieth nineteen sixty eight on lake. Herman road just inside benishi. As'die limits The couple were on their first date away to spend the first day man. Well you know. And they were planning to his ten christmas concert at the high school about three blocks from johnson's home instead. They visited a friend before stopping at a restaurant than driving out to lake. Herman road are they making out their first day. I mean maybe betty lou come allow i mean but they didn't have any clues related to who these who killed these two until he actually confessed to it fell. He calls a dispatcher and is telling them where to find. Darling farren and michael maggio. That was on july fourth said. The killington shot jensen five times in the back as she fled. Her body was found. Twenty eight feet from the car okay i mean. I think what. I've read reading to different accounts that he likes to gloat about his his pass. Murderers right so maybe it was. He upset that he wa- he didn't get any kind of publicity off of this on. Now he's He's confessing up to this. So maybe comes more infamous You know i. I couldn't possibly tell you why he was thinking or or what prompted him to do this or or make those calls or you know or or write letters. That was the next thing he did was he. He started sending letters to the vallejo times. The san francisco chronicle lee examiner but boy at the end of that phone call though that he calls that dispatcher. Okay and at the end of that phone. Call me and he says you know i wanna i wanna report a murder new. Wanna report a double murder logo here. I also killed those two his last christmas but then he says good. I'm not even playing. I'm not fucking playing dude. Late the dispatcher. She told that story okay lake. And that's what she did she was like. I don't. I don't know any other way to describe it except to just do it was like walking. Creepy okay hey dude. Yeah and of course he knew that i mean oh yeah out of the gate. He's just taunting but at some point though he was absolutely looking for fame a hundred percent. You want to be famous. He wanted everybody talking about him in a way. I would argue that. He achieved that. I mean. here. We are talking about him. Tell me The the books are such that you've read of the zodiac that you are reciting this information from Let's see i read. Grace mess book zodiac just called zodiac zodiac gray smith was the main character was j. jilin hall in zodiac right and he was a cartoonist. He worked at the san francisco chronicle and he was employed there when zodiac letter started. Coming in that's what we know from the movie as well is yeah played pretty close to the book. I think they did a really to with it. Actually i enjoy the move several times that i don't have the the attention span or retention that you do on. The story was another book that i read was called the most dangerous game. Something something something and that was from. The guy said his dad was that was zodiac. That was earl van best g. Yeah i just kind of watched a little documentary series and seeing him talk and it was interesting is story hold up. I really don't know if his death zodiac killer learn but From what he said in his little interview though. He's like he's like yeah. Well i saw the picture of the zodiac killer. Which is the most famous picture. The hands sketch of the zodiac killer with the glasses on and kind of little buzz cut and showed a picture of his dad. Kinda look you know. It looks pretty similar. But we're talking about nineteen sixty eight nine hundred sixty nine. How many people had this style haircut and frigging like home rin glasses i mean really the zodiac had an appearance that allow him to hide in plain sight and he talked in his letters about how he used disguises like the glasses like how he didn't i think at one point in time. He claimed he didn't actually need them. You know but He wore them like when committing crimes. Throw people off or something like that. Didn't have groucho nose mustache. He also at one point in time claimed that he put something on the tips of his fingers so that he wouldn't leave fingerprints. He was wearing gloves when he shot paul stein. And he left a partial fingerprint. You think that was planted i think that was one of the earliest juniors right earl van bez. Whatever junior his did his fingerprint also kind of match the partial left and had kind of a scar in the same place on his thumb as the print. I don't know. I might totally reaching from now. I may have been mixing up a lot of different things that i've been watching over since we started talking about this. I'm trying to catch up and get to your level on knocking to get there okay so when did zodiac start showing up in a hood because you know that's another picture that we see zodiac you know is with this henchman hood. Are the hood the the costume. That followed That was the league. Barry esa attack. That came a little bit. I skipped too far now. Now you didn't Zodiac only has five confirmed victims that we know are zodiac victims. He claimed to have a whole bunch. You know i read thirty page here. That he confessed to or he. Oh yeah he would keep a tally. He keep a tally legs. Zodiac in sap zodiac also took credit for crimes. He didn't commit that the cops knew he didn't commit. He was known to do that as well. I mean this guy wanted to be famous. So like yeah. I'll go ahead and take credit for that to a school. I didn't even have to actually admit that murder. But all claiming i mean he. He was all about the attention and so more victims. He had the scarier he thought he appeared to people And maybe he really did. Have that many victims but There's only five that actually be attributed to zodiac the fits the same. I and i'm not sure. This actually proven that he killed faraday jensen but he did take credit for that and he did seem to know information about those crimes That only the killer should know. That's how he could prove it. You know he would write write these letters and he would talk about these crimes you know to provided it. Here's what they were wearing. Here's where they were. Here's all their bodies. Were laying. he. I mean he was like here. Here's all this information and please talk about me. Because i'm lonely french. Trust me i have. I have mommy issues Yeah i don't know what his deal was Clearly he had a problem with rejection. You know i'm no. I'm no psychologist. But yeah i think because over till with the women you know and he he didn't kill my own show and like barry esa here he couple and he doesn't help bryan hartnell. Either but he overkilled. Cecelia shepard you know knees. Saturn stab stabber. Where i think i. I was reading that. She was stabbed like six times and she was stabbed ten from but there were stabbed. In the back i yeah. He was stabbed in the back. He just starts stabbing ryan now and then moved. Onto cecelia shepard. I don't know if she was moving around. All you know if she could do that like you see in in the movie. But i would imagine that if someone's stabbing you think you're gonna freak out and you're gonna be a little and i mean he's just stabbing her and and it was overkill and here's twice where he's you know fails to finish off the men but certainly made good where the women were concerned but do we have any evidence that he actually stabbed her ten times or did she run into the knife. I mean women are clumsy right as we see in movies. She may have tripped several times falling into the knife. It can happen now on the lake. Various murder was that the two that were basically. They're having like a picnic out on a secluded place on the beach. So this is this. The first time that he showed up and or has been seen in the hood and the symbol the following september. I believe it was after the darlene. Fair michael joe shooting in vallejo. It's now september. I believe of nineteen sixty nine and bryan hartnell and cecilia shepper. They run into each other I wanna say they were at riverside. Okay community call that. I can't rightly remember but they ran into each other. She's a student there. He's not he's like they're doing something else but they run into each other and nancy had sweethearts at one time or whatever and so they decide to you know they're gonna spend the afternoon together. They're going to drive to san francisco. But san francisco's late. Pretty far from where they are and mike and i've made that drive. Actually it's pretty well from oklahoma. Yeah definitely from oklahoma away. They realize okay. You know what we're not gonna have time to drive to san francisco and fuck off dry back. And then he get back to where he needs stable had other plans anyway. They decide fuck that. Let's go to liberia sense that they do. They're hanging out in this little secluded spot. It's beautiful and they're a great time. Brian horton nells laying on the ground. And cecelia shepard is kind of leaning. She's laying there with him but she's kind of leaning on top of him you know like go on. They're not they're not right and then no but she looks up in. She sees somebody and she says you know told him that there was somebody else there. She could see somebody you know and you know one of them are it was like she just said it. He noted happened to notice somebody there. She's not alarm. Neither one of them are alarmed. Until cecelia shepard says he has a gun. This dude shows up and you asked about the costume this he. This guy hasn't at gun point. And he's wearing this outfit. He made it. He put it together himself executioners out like this black cloak thing that went over his he was dressed in all black like he'd black pants on black shoes. Hit a long-sleeved shirt. He had black gloves on zemo. I mean he would have been really into my cuba romance saying but they just were around at the time you know as before driveway but anyway so he's got this cloak on this theme of over his chest or whatever and a hood goes over. And he's got these like like aviator sunglasses or something. Josh calm but like you're the unabomber lake uni bomber glasses. graceless drawing. Hannah look like bank on the front of this cloak. He has this That that symbol when talked about assemble which is like a target to me like Target through a scope. Yeah yeah it really does it. He only that would mean he was a sniper but and it shouldn't take more than five shots to kill some money right. Yeah and at the symbol. Was you know. He had that on the on his on the front of that lake. We're clothing that he was wearing. And he's got like ruben. Sue their shape you know. And they have this lake ref- conversation with zodiac. You know he. He tells them some interesting things he tells them that. He's as an escaped convict from deer lodge montana and that he was like on his way to mexico or something like that he wanted to rob them. And reinhard house like cool Here's my keys. A here's it you know you know yada yada shortening skin. I think i think Bryan hartnell thought that. I guess he thought that if you just talk to him or know he could just maybe talk him out of doing this or something like that. Maybe you know. Stop stop what was happening Or maybe he was just nervous. I got always. You could always talk your killer out of killing you. Yes i don't know they. They get into this they get into this conversation and zodiac once cecelia shepard to tie reinhard l. up which she does the zodiac ties her he hasim lay on the ground there face domer- on their stomachs and then he pulls out a knife and start stabbing the cheese. I mean repeatedly in stab him first and then her does. I think he started seven heart. Now first and then when after cecelia shepard so zodiac doesn't necessarily have Any like Rape tendencies amine. He's not interested in that he's killing is not original so he didn't rape his victims and i think that's part of the reason why it was you know how old zodiac is We can take a guess at how what is age was you know. Based on those who actually saw him hartnell. Didn't he heard his voice but he didn't actually see him but he could tell that he was a stocky fellow he was husky zodiac was known to changes in modo. This is something that serial killers normally don't do. Did the next victim. His fifth victim was a cab. Driver is san francisco right stein but before we get off. I'm sorry before we get off of harthill. Though they were their bodies were found like later. Right i mean. He confessed to those murders. He called reported those murders as well. They were found. If i'm not mistaken. They were found later that evening. They were lying there. Bleeding that freezing death and I believe there was a a a new boat drop by drove mile. Went by and i believe that guy. whitten alerted police. He didn't like go to shore like he didn't approach them leg. I think he was spooked himself about what was what was over there. It was dark by this point but he did call police. This guy did of police fucked up big it there and you know they bryan hartnell out of they cecelia shepard out of their shepherd by the way was still alive when they showed up She died later But two days later. Yeah yeah. I think she held on her couple days but anyway I'm sure that this dude thought that is there's this guy there and i. I'm assuming that he. He really thought that he was helping. But he wasn't a feed scoops at the crime scene into a blanket essentially leaves them with no crime scene. You know but i mean they do have a bryan. Hartnell knows car door. Yes seventy aca let behind. His is calling hard on his on his hardware and his his tally which actually just says Vallejo twelve twenty sixty eight seven four sixty nine september twenty second nineteen sixty nine at six thirty by knife so that has at confessing to all three murders. Yeah that top one. He's he's heath at betty. Lou jackson and david faraday they were. They were shot december twentieth. Then there's darling barron and michael zhao. And then he's like. And then. I killed these people with an and that's interesting too because here he's changed his emo- he stabbed him up until this point he shot real and then he changed his ovalles traveling to san francisco and taking a cab ride into the pseudo heights neighborhood and parking it at washington in cherry. He grabbed the back of a collar and held. That gun. right up to the back of his head wilshire. I hope that it happens fast enough that he never saw that coming. Didn't know is gonna happen. You know was dead before that he confessed that murder too. You could say that. He met a letter to the san francisco. Chronicle with a piece of paul. Bloody shirt paul. Avery's the reporter. He's he's talking about the zodiac and he pisses zodiac off offends and zodiac sent hall. Avery a halloween card and it to contain a piece of walstein shirt and everyone everyone at the san francisco chronicle. You know they start. They start wearing. These lake pins or or something that i am not hall. I want one of those pants. So bad anyone listening to this. If you have no nowhere one is a woman i am. Not all you can contact us at movie. Moratorium at gmail.com. It's funny because in the movie lake thread. Gun range okay. Like police gets his gun. He's doing target practice gym journals. They're talking turn. He's he's like you should sell these. Do well a even paul. Avery like even even he's wearing a button as as i am not angry but you know he was he was. He got that letty pizza. Paul stein shirt. Of course you're going to be doing and you don't know who the zodiac is You you're pretty sure he's a stocky dude with the crewcut but that's really all you got everybody. Looks like that you know so So yeah he was. He was spooked. When did the cipher start from what i understand. They started not too long after the the blue rock springs killing. He wrote a letter to want to say. It was an august nineteen sixty nine when they got first letter and a and i wanna say there were like three. There were multiple letters because multiple newspapers got one like the examiner got one a herald goblin and the san francisco chronicle got one in each of these letters. He included a cipher this coded message and were they all different messages though or was it the same messages drew cinta different newspaper. You know i'll have to look that up to. I only concern myself chronicle on a matter to me Because the ciphers are the same decipher was same. One i believe the herald. The examiner published them too but the chronicle publish them and you know. Course here's here's this puzzle. That's been published in his newspaper and it's a couple that practical but there were there were more than their one they keep coming after the blue springs. There are multiple letters That were multiple letters. Like i don't have a number like on the top of my head. How many he said. I'm sure that information's on here but But he sent multiple letters to the chronicle. He also wrote. Melvin belli letter. Who's that Mellon novell i was a lawyer we can talk about. The definitely will go into the ciphers on our next talk. So let's just. Let's wrap up some of these murder so you said zodiac had been confirmed for he confirmed murmurs faraday jensen Maggio and farren and heart nail away. I'm sorry because michael maggio didn't die and harthill didn't die. That's what we're saying. That's why is five murders but he's attacked multiple. Did harthill ever. I mean as he's on record as it did he turn french. You know a. Maybe so paul. Stein was the next murder after Can be confirmed to zodiacs. He was the cabdriver. Use the cabbie shot. How many times in the back of the headlines. Maybe shot one time with. We didn't talk about the the eye-witnesses yeah. Yeah there's quite a bit. Where paul signs concerned because a here. He's east changes. Mo again up until this point. He's talked all couples hallstein's alone cabdriver. In san francisco. And i wanna say it was his second or third fair of the night. Just starting your shoes. Yeah he just started. You take that you know they. Maybe it was rory like that i. I'm sure that that's what it looked like. Like when when dave tashi and bill armstrong showed up. That's probably how about look to them. Except it's not a robbery He hasn't seemed to have taken anything. Except you know pieces of paul signs clothing weird stuff hitting his keys. Were missing as well. Did he take his money. How I don't think we did it. Look like a now and he left I believe he left glove behind ruin already. That would be just like taunting. Yeah because michelle. He he's down You know after after he was he was shot he took off. He disappeared back. He went back to france. He was like y'all out here. I wa wa wa so that would leave. Michelle is the only one who's seen zodiac without his. You know his face hermel didn't see his face because he was wearing got ridiculous costume. Hallstein definitely saw his face but he was shot in the back of the head and was killed Wait come to find out shortly after stein's burger that on the ninth is tying that paul stein was killed. I want to say it's like a block block or two way from from his murder. There at washington maple. And i think he actually took him one st back in asked to be a taken another street forward which is how they ended up at washington and maple but anyway When zodiac wrote a letter you wrote the letter about holstein since pieces of shirt. That's worth thing a talked about how you know he was like al could caught me truly. I wanna say it with a block or two away. These two other cops are driving by and they see this dude walking down the street. They said this guy was sake he had a crew cut. I'm assuming that shooting. Paul stein that close in the back of the head that he would have blood on him. You know these cops. It's not like you know. They just were really bad really bad at their job. Most nineteen sixty nine beat. Cops don't know that zodiac is in san francisco in his just killed this cabdriver The initial description that went out was that they were looking for a black man. I don't know where this mistake was made or how that mistake was made. But dave tosh bill armstrong show up to the crime scene dating the perpetrator that they're looking for is back black kids across the street. Witnesses they tell tauch e. I mean it'd been alright. It already been corrected. By that point they found out it was actually actually are white guy. But of course toshka talks to these girls and or to these kids. And they're like yeah. He was a stocky dude. Crewcut white guy and it's not too long later That e san francisco profitable got a new letter And it had signs shirt it Because he definitely wants to prove that he killed his. He wants the credit for these murders. So in this letter you know he's making fun of these two cops an all of the cops really for their failure to catch him when he was right there. Your insolence you will pay for your insolence so the zodiac killer dot com and read this straight from this little report as unfortunately the police dispatcher mistakenly described. The suspect is being him being a black male adult as the result when patrol officers donald. Foul ke- and eric zooms observed white man walking east on jackson street. He was never stopped and question because they didn't think they were looking for black. Dude yeah so the officers did get a good look at him. However when the correct description of the possess specht was finally broadcast the officers realized they may have been countered him and the search of the area where the man was observed was conducted at to no avail. Yeah well yeah couple of days later. You're going to go back. He's still there. Oh i'm sorry is good job. Get back on the beat Said the man didn't appear to be carrying anything and no conversation between the man and the officers took place. I wonder what how big of the peace of the shirt did he get from stein if he was able to send a piece of it to the police department but also sent a piece to To paul avery now has this been a part of his mo from all along as he getting a souvenir from leading a trophy from his have been getting trophies but this was the only time that he ever said a piece of it to anybody if he was and so. I kinda think that paul stein was when it was kind of when he got the idea. Like i'm gonna cut a piece of shirt off a millet. People i think if he had pieces of his victims he would've included those because he was all about. Look at me. And look what i did. You scare all of your scared. Look at me. He was all about that. You know the more he had to scare people with. I think for him. It was better. But here paul stein. This is the only time that he ever mailed a piece of his souvenirs. People i think he also took his keys or something like that. Were they able to link the gun. Used in the previous murders to the gun that was used on. Tv that there was a connection with shell casings on it. Saying here the the it was a nine millimeter semiautomatic pistol. That was used to kill paul stein. I'm like that's pretty specific. They found shell casings. Hallstein i mean at the shootings. They found the shell casings. And i think that was their connection to what kind of gun was being used. He's in a number of letters And they would say pretty bizarre things. Like i said he all about scaring people and making radson and all sorts of stuff like he talked about there being bombs hidden somewhere and then one of his ciphers or one of his letters did he have like a description of a drawing of his letters. He did include a drying up what they were. You know pretty sure was you know. Look like there was one. That was really weird. He talked about a. He's gonna shoot out some tires of a school bus and he was gonna shoot up the skin and pick the kennedy's as they came bouncing out like that's how he worded it. You know the disturbing. He never did this but you know he threatened to and that's just like he just wanted to. He did stuff like that. Just further scare people. You know one point in time you know wanted them to wear He wanted everybody aware zodiac buttons. You know like now. He's coming up with his own merge. You know you know what i'm saying like i mean again if anybody has zodiac again yeah yeah. I am not paul avery. We're all in the buttons here. The moratorium interesting he. He wrote a letter to a melvin. Belli melvin fell. I was a he was a lawyer. Fell came into the to the scene in nineteen sixty nine Want to say it was the jim dunbar. Show was like a talk show in san. Get him on. During the day in the morning somebody claiming they were zodiac. Was going to call the the dunbar show and wanted to speak to melvin belli but i think he also asked for Bailey ethically bailey which we will remember him from such things as what patty hearst. Oh and The oj simpson trial. Speaking your moves right. I mean if it doesn't fit you must acquit him but anyway Zodiac wanted to talk to you know one of them and they get bell and ballet agrees to go on the show which he does and sure enough. Somebody called in and picks the name. Sam call sam and Because bell i wasn't real comfortable. I mean he didn't really know how to address them. Okay mr zodiac. I say you know like you think. That was kind of a callback. To one of the son of sam killers that was sales. Say and but real strange there. Is that dude. Berkowitz claimed that there were multiple sons of sam's like it wasn't just him lower many a plethora of of sam's but this dude this sam was not the zodiac and i. I don't think that he was a son of sam either. This dude i believe was calling from a mental institution and they were able to trace the call and it. It's a patient from a mental institution calling the show and great Nevertheless i think he. His voice was recorded and was played for the dispatcher. Played for nail. You know to get their opinion on. Hey you know. Since they had actually heard his voice. I want to say hartnell argued that it was too high pitched to have been zodiacs. Here's actually a clip on youtube. I'll put this up on the website and thou. Maybe i'll start making a list on our youtube page for the zodiac real voice on jim dunbar. Show spas what's going on inside your. I have have those headaches. Kill the kid. While december the chad the headaches the in service that you might have an injury and so would you ever fly out of a premium downstairs. Whatever unconscious i don't know. Why did you want to make belli's sound. I don't wanna be hurt. Tashi armstrong believe they ask. Why if at all possible if they could have you know this is before they trace call all newer come from but they were like you know get this. Get this guy to to to agree to meet you somewhere. They did this I'm not sure really whose idea was to do the to meet in daly city. Wanna say it was with the zodiac. Wanna course showed up. This caller did not because he's And that's ultimately where they found out he was. Do you think this this could have all been publicity stunt for the gym done marshall. It's entirely possible. You know you know. I'm just going to throw this healthier. I you know. I don't know maybe maybe bell i and bailey maybe were trying to get in on that action and i mean but they were already famous lawyers to begin with so. That's probably unlikely you know. It came out pretty quick after. How long did it take them to like figure out that it was from. The mental institution was like days like a week later. Oh by the way. i'm sorry lives. I'm not sure. I'm not sure how long they had to keep them on the line before they could trace the call because at first he kept hanging up. You know like this guys calling from a mental institution. But first he kept hanging up you know and take his meds. Yeah her coupes nurse ratchet. I gotta go. If i'm not mistaken. He hung up several times but it wasn't zodiac. It wasn't it wasn't him but i think zodiac the real. The acquis probably watching i would mood. I have no doubt that he was watching this. I think he loved hearing people talking about him and weird stuff that he did. So this. This caller calling in Might have been the sort of thing that delighted him. You know like cool last school. Like people are talking. They're talking about me so much. They wanna immature and not is true. Copycats are a senior certainly with What was his name. Robert salvo a boston strangler my understanding. There's evidence there to suggest that you know. If robert salvo was was the boston strangler. He wasn't the only one like there could have been multiple boston. Tremors but you wanna kill somebody you want to strangle your girlfriend with her stockings. Make it look like strangler. Did it because that was his his calling card. Now i mean so. I'm just going to shoot this couple in i can and zodiacal do all the hill claim. He did it for me. i don't even have to. You know this other guy will will confess to it but the problem with that. Was that while there. Were there were the kathleen john's Later on this woman in kathleen. John's she's she's driving on the highway in california. She's got her. Toddler is nine starred in this is in the horn trump. Fly in her down. You know so. She pulled over and he her that there's something wrong with her tire. He's got to tighten her innis. They're coming out her tires him off and so he being the good samaritan is going to tighten these lug nuts for her so should know what is well guy. He's probably fredge dammit. Instead he he loosened her lug nuts and the tire comes flying off. He gets out pull over again. He gets out and you know and he's like oh you know what i can drive you to gas station. United driving somewhere to get help. You know school. Laura not gonna leave out here. What is weak is right. He's thoughtful considerate. Okay but she gets in the car. She gets rid of her child. You know and now. I'm not real sure what kind of conversation they had you know but so you live around here much right and she was pregnant at the time right so i was like. Oh yeah hey you're always going around loosening up nuts So you're a mechanic. Do you know how. I could get an extended warranty on this car. She says that they drove pass a gas station and he was like oh that was close the drive past another lining on eight week. Come up with these reasons why he wasn't pulling over and she's definitely got the suspicious five going on you know The movie is pretty creepy. It has also super creepy on this part it has zodiac saying to her. Before i kill you. I'm gonna throw your baby out the window and in with the ominous music in fast forward to kathleen. John's is flagging down semi on the highway. Kathleen jaaz took a die for it. She opened the car door. And just i mean she just love. She is made the decision. You know like. I can either continue writing in this car with break or i can just jump out of this thing and hope best. Grab my kid go. She grabbed her kid and bail out deuces. So she hides you know she and her child her hiding in brushes dargin. She says this guy gets out. He's got a flashlight he's like. I didn't mean to scare you know come out. It's all right just playing around you know. And of course she doesn't. She said he looked around for a while he got back in scarring drove off and she stays hidden mood. She's terrified. she just knows neither. She just knows he's lurking in a somewhere in waiting for her to pop out of her hiding spots. She's like fuck bunch of that so eventually he bails and she doesn't fact flag down smother people and she had hidden her her baby her child but our bushes offside or whatever and they took her to the to a police station and catholic. John's looks at e wall of this police station. In there is a monnet poster of this famous drying that you talked about of of zodiac with his glasses and she says that's the man that picked me up. She claimed that she recognized him in that drawing the that was dude that had pulled over and picked her up. I don't know that it was necessarily zodiac that picture up. And i'll explain why but i. I want to say that somebody hit happening johnson. She didn't make this up like this wasn't a stunt for attention or anything like that next question john. Ninety did this to her. I don't think it was odia. But i think it was a zodiac. Wanna be they go back to her car. And it's on fucking fire. It's like gone up in flames. You now In the meantime after the incident. And i mean wait several weeks go by if not like three or four months or something like that. The leg zodiac Here's a guy who already discussed the was all about here. Look what i did you know. Here's paul stein. Sure you know. Here's all this information about you. Know how their bodies loved in how they were killed and yada yada. I mean he really really wanted people to know that he did these things and yet there's no mention of cathleen john's until several weeks if not a few months later after them back after it's already been on the news it's it's already been printed in the newspaper zodiac had had done that you know before taken credit for crimes that they knew he didn't actually commit kathleen john's questionable. They couldn't prove that he didn't pick her up either but they do find it weird that he didn't talk about her because if he did pick her up may not be the first thing he talked about his letter. Aa i gave an interesting ride to this lady instead. He says this a letter way after very interesting but he was happy to take credit card nevertheless he did it in the name of zodiac sue altay critical kathleen jaws. Walked into. a police. Station looks at this poster of this wanted poster of zodiac insists. That's the guy who picked me out of this tells you that whoever actually picked kathleen johns had you know is it because as we've said before everybody looked like that everyone had that group had everyone wore glasses like that. Or was this guy you know purposely trying to imitate zodiac point and we have zero answers soon. We do not know. He can't but maybe he was french. We don't know there's a possibility that that he could have been french. You know they're still a two percent possibility that i'm french. Maybe three percent for you but then the case gets it gets re spooky. I think we should save the spooky nece till next time we get together and talk about this because there are so many potential victims that weren't necessarily linked to zodiac that. He kind of claimed that he did. He has links to call cases. You know like there's one in lake tahoe. That you know There's a real possibility that he committed that murder that he held her. But we just can't just can't prove we're missing that one little piece that says yes. He did it you know. We're missing a piece of paulson shirt. There you know or somebody's heart disease or something like that like you could find these souvenirs. That would be helpful that he actually committed those crimes by that one piece is missing the next time we get together. We're gonna talk about the potential of their victims from the zodiac. This is a fascinating story. I friggin. I love it. It's been fun talking about it again. It spun the talk about real breath. We're not too morbid now okay. So let's shut this down for now and then that then we'll come back And if not next week and the week after. But we're going to continue this conversation. Okay and i'll do some more research and actually have more to offer than just stupid jokes about frenchman. Cau- all right so let's let everybody know that. Hey every tuesday you can find us on. The moratorium dot com can find us on twitter. Instagram facebook check out our facebook group. It's growing wildly. We put stuff up there every day. Lots of fun stuff going on there. I'm also doing tick-tock talk videos. I hate being on camera. So i'm making videos of other stuff. Let everybody know that. Hey i we will be continuing doing our movie episodes of the moratorium while jason comes back and go on over to our patriotic and help support this podcast for as little as three dollars a month. You can really make a difference in this podcast. You can give us a dollar a month. You give us any amount you want. That's great for three dollars a month. I'm going to start giving you stuff back for three dollars a month. You can get the director's cuts to our movie episodes and i. We just came off doing horror express. Which was peter cushing. Christopher lee and telly savalas. I cut like thirty one minutes out of that podcast and saved it gist for our patriotic subscribers. So head on over to the patriots on the moratorium throws a few bones will buy some food daddy. I've seen her. she's so skinny. I'm starting all right guys. What's this shut this bitch down kristie have anything else offer. I'm good. where can they find you on social media. Do you care. i'm on paper okay. She's on facebook guys. I have blood on the moratorium. That's right go and check out the blog. More stuff's gonna be coming real soon. Let's shut this bitch down. What he say. All right bye-bye You've been listening to a special edition of the moratorium. An empty cornfield production tune. In next week when kristen. I continue our conversation on the zodiac. If you have any suggestions corrections or comments or just want to tell us how much we really suck. You can contact us at movie. Moratorium at gmail.com thanks for listening and long live vhs.
Episode 69 The Zodiac Killer
"Kept better. Yeah thanks fireworks in my neighborhood. Litter even tonight sounded like a war zone. I feel like the whole week. That everybody's been like five days straight. They've been crazy. It was really bad. On new year's god it was say but my neighborhood hasn't stopped ours has an either. I mean all year round. She won't when she hears them. She can't eat and she won't eat. I feel so okay so on that nextdoor app but i love the ones that are like. It's not your worse. it's gunshots. Mike fireworks but the worst some gunshots. I told hanna that night. I mike that gunshots. There's a clear difference between some fireworks. They definitely sound different. I like how we went from really good wine to during ninety nine two rbis can i have. Moore's gone that's funny but are we saying forgotten is saying that about the fireworks in your neighborhood. They are first of all constantly going off all year round. But i feel bad for the. There's people when it's not new year's or fourth of july and they're just all year round and people are like. I'm a retired vet and i have ptsd. And i understand like people want to do this story special holidays and i can prepare for that fourth of july and cool but every other day. It's very hard for people who have ptsd who were in a war and have to hear. I mean they literally are freaking out hearing that even on new years. When i was going to bed. I'm mike can you imagine how in some countries this sound is is a normal life and thirty imagine but then and then having dogs like shorty poor dogs. She has the worst and she's always had the worst exciting when it comes to fireworks dogs that run away because of hearing him she shakes and shakes and shakes so i gave her some cb oil. Oh could up. That isn't really helper. She had the worst night she had the worst night and so then they will. Of course like on the stroke of midnight lake. They went insane and say they were already insane in our neighborhood never ending. Yeah ooh blue light show. I'm not gonna oh they. I saw nothing. No i would like it was kind of beautiful but at the same i imagine but it sounded like they were throwing a meme in my backyard and i kept telling hannah i kept going out to look. I didn't see anything. Because i wanna see lights when we finally did go you so at the stroke of midnight hour had already fallen asleep. The boys had already went home because they were worried about their dogs. Who just cessna boys. Because albert made minu though and then i can tell you is already getting tired so like maybe like twenty minutes before midnight like i heard him going so. That's why i was like okay. I'll dislike him up and say you know with the kiss. Which i did and he was like entrust me like we. The only thing we even had the during that night was a little bit of whiskey in our hot cocoa. And he's like abbott avenue. House like to larry's award he woke up. he's still shooting. Fireworks just started. It's only eight o'clock. That's a gas the the thunder down under Anyways happy new year. I've been much twenty all my gosh. Hello twenty twenty one. Please be nice in the be amazing it will. Everybody just has to be amazing. You liked when. I was watching some of the the new year's eve special things. There was one channel that was like it's like the debbie downer channels showing all the the crap from twenty twenty one. And then i think it was. Nbc that was showing like funny and might ning happen. Yeah that were good things that happened and not. Didn't drudge up the co stuff and the anti-massacre the politics that distant like look with this person did look at this and look funny. This was and it was it was it was like bringing it in on a positive enlightening note. Metal we need. That's what we needed. We get the hope. Ed and the crap in the sad and the reminders as you turn your tv on in the morning so. I don't need that. We need a break every once in a while we know what's there yeah. I don't think anybody is pretending it's not. I mean i think they all have their special ways of thinking special. This special charge lady specials. Shemmel show special special story redo do so we started kind of talking about it on the last episode that lasted for it was actually a whole three hours. That would be recorded. But i was able to kind of pare it down to two type personally. Thought was hilarious. I even texted you. dislike talk. show was hilarious. We were led. We were told the ada mike. If you haven't listened to it yet you need to. Did he listen to it on the way home after christmas were barron. He's like i left the whole way. Theory super thanks again aided. Yeah i told him. I'm like i think we thank you One hundred times we did. I even cut out a few of the All right so we touched on this on the last episode we start. I start talking about the killer. The cipher decoded and we said oh we do that story. Yeah and so. I was like. Why haven't we done that story. So i started looking into it and here we are here. We are in store. We're gonna do it. And i think our whole this whole episode episode to episode sued in this episode. We could. we'd be copping. My lips leads. Laurel laureus episode. We're going to be talking about this zodiac killer before into about this series. The ac cannot this episode on masterpiece. Theatre. you're welcome. You're welcome. So i actually watched the movie zodiac. And as did i so we have apollo it. It's really cuddling up with me. Wants to climb in the chair with her right. This is pretty cute. He is like okay. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna ever go. You come down the actually make my back. She'll it always been your back hurts. Okay announced his data monster. Speaking of masterpiece most apiece moss. Tippin must watch sam dotson. The what standerton now. It's pretty good. I bet on master. It's on pbs. Now maybe i have. 'cause i watch a lot of those i get into him. I think if you watch this. One i don't know how pick donor yeah watch it. Get back to me okay. All righty love cobra kai on netflix. Totally frigging me. Our watch is like spent the whole day watch. The third season of cobra kai i haven't heard of it. No koper cobra kai cry. Kid was. I thought it was just karate. Kid turn out so they have two seasons that we're out there so we've been to. That went through that right away and then the new season just like came on yesterday and we went through the whole season really. Yeah i was. I think it took five and a half hours. they're not like long episodes. And there's about ten. I think there's ten episodes. I had put myself so much into this zodiac thing that i had to like get out of it is thinking 'cause i watched the whole series on hulu right. I watched the movie. And then i was watching the history channel. One all the so grading. Yeah that is good. I i wake literally like was tune in for a lot of times. I'll put something like that on an zone out. And i'll be like oh i got put it on again so i can really pay attention and like i was like. Oh wow. this is really intriguing. Yeah it was. It was really intriguing more sometimes. I wonder how much of that like they're like. Can you look like you're thinking a little more seriously. Can you look a little more official right. Oh yeah yeah. We always look super super serious. That you relaxed y- i'm going to go to sleep far kid. Okay is bolles out of this room. They leave that. Remember if i left that episode. Think you did because we're both like the one right before it was it. Was that one. I remember there all sorts stella's together far lewis out up here anyway. Okay so yeah. We started talking about this last time. So i was like okay. Let's do it so this whole episode is going to be zodiac centric. We even have a haunting. Like it's just like a little d how did you. Oh no so. That rabbit hole led to nowhere nowhere. I all excited. Because i was like i kept searching and searching. There's gotta be haunting. Serve people talking about stuff right but no so when you think of the zodiac killer. I think of jack the ripper like like zodiac killer. Are jack the ripper for this time. Yeah i know and it is crazy. How many it's you don't have is thinking while i was researching and watching and it's almost like there's so many people that reclaiming they know who it is part of their family. It's crazy to think that will first of all just by the looks of him from the sketch he kinda does fit a lot of males back that. Oh yeah i mean. Even my dad he i can say oh. It looks just like my dad back then. The classes the face shape the haircut mean by the were the same. They all looked alike same glasses. Yeah the same kind of life. Same cut yeah and so that would like but it was crazy first of all how many people really want to believe that their loved one his zodiac wire. There's a ton and there's so many people that they had suspected of it and there's so many people that actually fit the evidence. It's it was insane as i was watching that. I'm sure we're talk about the insane. And the thing is that there's such a community out there like a young internet community. I'll do that like they've just dedicated. All their time trying to decipher all these codes. And try to figure out who the killer is in general because as big of a mystery. Hey there's so many books written it's just crazy. How he had gotten away with it. Yeah and when you read some of the ciphers in the last like he sounds so juvenile like so lake craved for attention like it's it. I don't know it's almost like super amazing to me that he's taking so much time in the last fifty something years anyways all right so we'll just we'll get into it. The killings that are attributed to the zodiac killer started on december twentieth nineteen sixty eight when teenage couple betty lou jensen and david faraday pulled into a gravel. Turnout off of lake. Herman road at about ten fifteen. This was well known in the area as lovers. Lame can you imagine. That's just let me just for the younger audience. Who may not know much about it. A certain kind of set. The scene like the cute couple goes on a date. They go up to lovers lane. Every place has a lovers lane. Vaco up there. This was the first. Yeah i think so too. Because he i think he was a little nervous. She was like she was more into it. Mike yeah they were all just innocently going up there. It seemed like she had been beans the weight. The width movie can portrayed. It didn't look like she had been being stopped by like a crazy boyfriend. She yeah that's the way they made. It seem that aside. They're up. They're getting ready to make out in the front seat of the car and this car mysteriously is pulling up. Yeah pulls up next to them gets out anyways. I mean after doing how many of these stories like. I would never ever want to go to lovers lane now. Has your chances of being murdered seem to grow gloves except initially utilizing available forensic data robert gray smith wait. We didn't get that far. We're not done okay. You're saying well the let's get less at the whole scene. Oh you're so okay gopher. So they they're up at lover's lane than their this car pulls up it kind of pulls up and then goes by them kind of intimidates him a little bit. They think they're out of the woods. It's gone turns around and comes back and the guy is like. Hey you know that. Actually the second visit. Oh that's not the first one home. Oh before that and they went straight into the second murder on the oh okay restarts. How did this happen. Basically the same way repair he pulls up next to them. Oh so that's why. I said she felt like she was being star. That act at all busy. Yeah she has. Lucy is away and then he comes up. Yes straight behind them in there like with the fuck. Yeah and so. He's trying to like lose. Okay do the first one says seen a little more. He comes up next to them. Comes up next to them just goes in and just like shoots both of them so they didn't really get into that del even even on the other things. I did talk about that. They mention them. But i didn't associate this one with because it was the very first one so of course they're not thinking. This was a serious thought. It was completely like a robbery patterson So after everything is said and done as ing available forensic data robert. Gray smith postulated. I'm sorry. Did he call this one in. No okay no but he claimed it when he did the second one because that was me. Okay okay okay. Sorry no it's okay. So robert gray smith who is played by my god. What's his name. robert downey junior. No he was the third quarter guy. Yeah so anyways. Rubber gray smith brights like one of the best known books called the zodiac and the movie the zodiac is based off of robert. Graceless wait a minute. Jilin j. he'd played back and even recognize them. Yeah that's insane. recognize them. Sorry continue so anyways. That's robert gray. Smith okay so he postulates that another car pulled into the turnout. Just prior to eleven pm and parked beside the couple is a second Mothers the first one percents. The killer apparently exited the second car walked toward the rambler. Possibly ordering the couple out of the rambler johnson appeared to have exited the car. I yet when faraday was halfway out. The killer apparently shot him in the head. The killer then shot jensen five times in the back as she fled shots right. Her body was found. Twenty eight feet from the car and the killer then drove off. So then the when you're thinking of the next takes place the following year. It's about six months later. it's july fourth. So that that. First one was december darlene. Farren and michael maggio drove into the blue rock springs park in vallejo about four miles from the from the lake. Herman road murder site. They park while they're both sitting in the car. Sector second car pulls up into the lot parks next to them but then drives away the returns about ten minutes later and parks behind them. This is one area. The driver of this car gets out approaches. The passenger side door of parents car carrying a flashlight in a nine millimeter luger. That'd be so scary. okay. I can't even imagine you're in a vulnerable like you're off the beaten path. Obviously because you wanna get busy night urine. A bowl notable. That's probably why a lot of these murders take place in lovers lanes because these people are vulnerable so vulnerable. They're they're prepared to get killed. So they're not occur moans or like have completely taken over their body so they're not thinking about and we'll flashing light and there is a killer shoots at them firing five times. The color walks away from the car for heard mazur moaning so he comes back returns and shoots them both two times each again before driving off mashal lives. Yes that's right so on july fifth nineteen. Sixty-nine at twelve forty am oh hold on because on the ballot worth became. But i'm the first one. Is that the one where she died. And he lived a little bit in the ambulance and then died on his way to the hospital. Okay anyway go ahead. I'm sorry so on. July fifth which is a day after At twelve forty. Am in the boy. He'll police department receives a call from someone claiming responsibility for the attack. So obviously like he can't just let let it be he. Somebody has to know where he did well in the movie they make it look like he called that night but i think it was pretty much that night. Oh twelve hundred. Yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so during this call. The person also takes credit for the murders on kerman road. That's when he like that was me. He wants to make short citizens thing like it was almost like he wanted to get caught in. Once he has ego is ridiculous. Yeah east gorizia ridicules can. Can you pause for second on lake. Herman or talking about the paranormal thing. That was where they seem to get some spirit bucks stuff on there But there's not any real haunting stuff that i was getting when i was. I got all excited to research. I cannot excited. I am always surprised that there's not like a backup go story. Yeah when we're doing some of these stories. I know it's just crazy to me. Especially the way they detonate. Yeah but then. That's a good thing because they kind of they went to the light and they don't look bad. Nobody's messing keeping here. Yeah post-race to a phone booth at a gas station at springs road and tool him. Oh located about three tenths of a mile of a mile from parents home so just down the street from barron's actual home so he drives drives all the way back all right. So farren was pronounced dead at the hospital over hostile one that dies at the ono fairness the girl the girl okay and then survived the attack despite being shot in the face because he's one the okay. Sorry the neck and the chest this is when we get the first description describing attacker as twenty six to thirty one hundred and ninety five to two hundred pounds about five feet. eight inches. Tall white male was short. light brown. Curly hair yes. So that's the real. It's big still but it's the first description that's out there. Yeah so then. That's when the first letter start coming. Seems like he's the only one that says something about the curly. Yeah i haven't. Yeah anyone i wrote that down. I was like i heard that one before because even the picture. There's not really. There's really no. And i even noticed that it took me a while and i was like light in his face. Oh yeah so hard for him now where we samsung. But i even was. It took me a while to notice. Because i remember hearing curly hair than all the other stuff i was watching. Nobody ever said anything about. How did i hear something about curly on made shut up so you probably read it okay. So then a few weeks later on august first so that was from the beginning of july. Now we're here at a key august. I nine hundred sixty nine. Three letters received by the blaze times herald the san francisco chronicle and the san francisco examiner. The letters were nearly identical described by psychiatrist. As someone that was brooding isolated the letter writer takes credit for the lake. Herman murders and the blue rock springs shootings each letter also included one third of a four hundred eight syllable cryptogram so each of them get a third of it. That's right okay. That makes sense. Yeah which the killer claimed contained his identity. The killer demanded they be printed on each paper's front page or he would cruse cr. Usc around all weekend killing lone people in the night. And that's another thing. His spelling is awful. And there's a theory out there that he missed bells on purpose to make it sound like he's dumber than he actually okay. There's yeah that's one of the theories is out there. And i'll get into that so he'll move onto kill again until i end up with a dozen people over the weekend all right. The chronicle decided to publish it. It's third it's third of the crypto. Gram on a page. For the next day's edition an article printed alongside the cryptogram quoted. Jackie stilts saying. We're not satisfied at the letter was written by the murderer and requested the writers then a second letter with more facts to prove his identity. Oh well tricky. Yeah what would what would we do. I was thinking about that. What would i do. I i mean i certainly wouldn't want to print that ship form and humor him right but i'm not respond. No but then he's saying and he's crazy right so he just might yeah and he does not me now. We have two dogs. Be snoring in a minute here on august seventh nineteen. Sixty-nine another letter was received at the san francisco. Examiner with the salutation dear editor. this is the zodiac. Speaking speaking speaking writing writing this was the first time killer had used this name for identification. This is the first time you called himself. Zodiac the letter was response to chief stilts requests for more details. That would prove he had killed. Faraday jensen and farren in it the zodiac Pros only doing that to you. See i kind of got annoyed on the last episode. That with the what he calls. I i cut a lot of it out when we were doing the the spirit bucks. They spare box I got annoyed with it. I don't know. I don't know why i got because it was like taking away from the story because you were trying to tell the story and it was like okay. But it was scheduled stops and frankie staff some brake. You stop that it was saying so anyways I might. I might just put that up on patriots. Yeah i have to edit it a little bit more but yeah it gave me the creeps. I took a lot of it out. Shorty all right. This was the first time okay. The letter was response to the chiefs. Delta's request for more details. That would prove he had killed faraday. Jensen infrared in the zodiac included details about the murders which had not yet been released to the public as well as a message to the police that when they crack this code they will have me sounds good. Yeah can i can. We're not answered sugar or anything sings. Pearson oh yeah we're not as list we were. The last time we were we were silly. Does gated was a good time. Even though like subject matter of my story i was like oh my god. We're so inappropriate laughing at sales. And i'm like to to other people think were funny as i think we are right. Now because we're it's too drunk can be all right okay. Then on september twenty fifth. I write two hundred and fifty seven okay. Something nineteen sixty nine september in september twenty fifth all right pacific union college students. Brian hill and to celia shepherd. Were picnicking by this. They showed in their by like berries. Barris i don't know how to say that and that's another one. I looked up. Because i thought for sure. That one's government that one is haunted. Might do a story or you may one of us but it's not haunted because of this it's got some haunting and because they say there's like a ghost town in there are under there under the lake our boats like they'll get something pounding from underneath the water on the scary just gave me goosebumps. Okay all right bryan. Hartnell cecelia shepard were picnicking at lake baresi on a small i. I don't know if i'm saying that right. Wait i'm trying to look for. Can i see the word. I don't even think are wrote it right. Orissa is that right. Okay on a small island connected by a sandpit. Two twin oak ridge a white man about five feet eleven inches weighing more than one hundred and seventy pounds with combed greasy brown hair poached them swearing a black executioners type hood this one is creepy like maybe can you imagine you're chilling out on the leg with your guy having a little picnic romance and then this guy like at first you're like what is h- who is the. Oh my god no no. It's a hooded guy. has like an or hood. Yeah and he had a gun at the time and this is the one where he has so simple. Yes oh like what. The fuck is happening. Like no no. I can't even imagine the terror that they were going through so the black executioner type hood with clip on sunglasses over the eye holes which is weird and a biblical advice on his chest. That had a white three by three inch cross circle. Symbol on it. He approached them with a gun which hartnell believed to be a forty five so he doesn't even need to use the same gun every time. No no the hooded man claim to be an escaped convict from jail with the two word name in either colorado or montana. A police officer later inferred that he had been referring to a jail in deer lodge montana where he had killed a guard and subsequently stolen car explaining that he now needed their car and money to go to mexico has a vehicle he had been driving was too hot. He made shepherd high apart now and then he tied her up with plastic clothesline. That was like cuts specifically in like it was already cutting pieces. He knows a shepherd had tied. Hartnell hands loosely. Katiba scarier wants us. Probably like please save me. Yeah hartnell who lives initially leave that this was a robbery but that the man pulled out a knife and stabs him both repeatedly heart now. Hartnell was stabbed six times and shepherd ten. The killer then goes back to their car that was backup up by knoxville road and he drew the cross circle symbol on the heart car door with black belt to pen and wrote beneath that vallejo slash twelve dash twenty dash sixty eight seven dash four dash sixty nine september twenty seven sixty nine six thirty by knife and there's pictures and if he saw the movie yeah again because he has a need to draw attention to himself and what he's done he called the napa county sheriff's office from a payphone to report crime. He stakes operator that he wished to report murder. No a double murder. Detectives were able to lift a palm print so fresh that they had artificially dry it so that they could lift it off the phone. Someone nearby hears the screams as well. They're fishing on the lake and while he was fishing. Okay so he ends up calling the park rangers cecelia. Shepard was conscious. When the deputy dave collins arrived in provided a detailed description of the attacker. She ended up dying two weeks later. But hartnell survived to recount this tale to the press. I think he takes off outta town. He doesn't have anything to do with it after a while them. Two weeks later on. October eleventh sixteen sixteen sixty nine while we're going back to nineteen sixty nine. A white male passenger entered the cab driven by paul stein. Okay so. This is an san francisco at the intersection of mason and gary streets. One block west of union square in san francisco requesting to be taken to washington and maple streets. So i've never been to san francisco. Texts this taxicab. Yeah okay so then. He requested be taken to washington and maple streets in presidio heights which is pretty well off neighborhoods for reasons. Unknown stein drives a block past maple cherry street. This is when the passenger shoot stein in the head with a nine millimeter He took stein's wallet and car keys and tears. A section of stein's bloodstained shirt tail. He has is seen by three teenagers across the street at nine fifty five pm and they're watching it in progress while they're calling the police in reporting it totally watching him wipe stuff down. Yeah yeah hut the shirt. They didn't know what he was doing when he went to the jar side. But that's what he was doing getting pieces of ashort wiping step down. Yeah now and taking the keys and wallet so and then the crazy part about this did Trae this in the movie too. So when the bolo. I goes out yes it goes as a man. This happens often know misinformation goes to nine one one. I've called nine one one before. They've scrambled up my whole chance mission and it's like i never said any of that right. I said this this. 'cause i always if i'm calling i don't usually call no one. I call non emergency. But i always get very matter of fact information. How do you mess thatta pray. I'm not nervous. Not yelling and screaming very clear. Precise had you fuck that up. Yeah but they do they fuck it up often. I mean they're human and they're they have high stress job right. It's not an easy job now. If you have somebody who's freaking out. That's when i can see it happening or if you have multiple callers calling two but lost set. These three kids like island. Oh he's looks like this. Oh tell nicb stubbing directed it but not in not in time because they think that he wasn't directly past two police officers okay. The dispatch first goes out to describe a suspect as a but this gets corrected however not before. Two patrol officers observe a white male walking away from the crime scene on the sidewalk. East jackson street then counter lasts lasts only five seconds but they move on not questioning him because they think they're looking for a black male and he kinda just like sneaks off into the park and disappear and by the time they realize and they go look for him. They can't find him. He took he went into the park. So officer phuc was. I hope i'm saying that right. It's f o u. k e describes a pedestrian. He's one of the two officers to be thirty five to forty five years old by ten with crewcut similar to but slightly older than the description of the teenagers who had observed the killer in. And out of stein's cab as a twenty five to thirty year old kuka white male about five foot eight inches five foot nine inches tall by the time. They realise the mistake and they start searching. It's too late. He's gotten away because this didn't follow the original ammo. The murder was. I thought to be a robbery gone wrong. But true to form letter was received by the san francisco chronicle from zodiac containing piece of stine's bloody shirt were running the and how like that is so planned out like he knew he was gonna shoot the guy. He wanted a piece of his clothing because he knew he was gonna do right. That's insane right but is it. is it smart. is he intelligent. Highly intelligent because he could plan that forehead and know what exactly what he was going to do or is he just that insane. Both just sounds like he's and he's not dumb. You sounds super needy. He's does so. He says attention starved like he needs some sort of recognition. But i hate to give them credit. Yeah much rather say there's no smart criminal Me yeah he's he's not Yeah yeah whole All right so the three teen witnesses so after they get this bloody shirt they're like oh shit this zodiac killer go back and they get a sketch from these teen witnesses and they haven't police artist prepare a composite. Sketch of stine's killer a few days later and this is where they get that good sketch that you see all the time pam glasses on whatever detectives bill armstrong and dave tashi. That just whispered. That's something going on in her. I like we explain that a lot we we can do because we do get vp. It's kinda courtesy saying all usually be like sending them to carleen. Yeah while i'm editing and then sometimes lead them in there. But once i've done all like my running it through late respect throat all the this stuff like i don't think it really translates over like after everything smoothed out. You can't really hear it as much. Because i play my. I played on the louder speaker. And i can't. I think i might just like Like our greatest hits of vp's gotten over the last year. Let's do it because it seems like the over the last year. We've gotten this could him full vp's so detectives bill armstrong and dave tashi who were also Portrayed trade in the movie yes we're assigned to the case. The san francisco police department investigated an estimated. Two thousand five hundred suspects over a period of years this is the last known murder linked to the zodiac killer however he continued to write letters for several years taunting the police on october fourteenth nineteen sixty nine. The chronicle received another letter from the zodiac this time containing swatch of palestine shirttail as proof. He was a killer which pretty much already asserted and also contain a threat about killing school children. Here it's just shoot out the front tire and then pick off the kiddies as they are bouncing out so this sets off like the whole city like on watch because everybody's worried that he's going to find a school bus and takeout original footage if he can anew to see original footage of the The police cars and the parents and the kids and he through everybody up in crazy town over that and the police. The sheriff would just like follow the buses around and parents were picking their own kids up and probably other people's kids up and then he writes another letter taunting mom pretty much saying if you believe. I was going to pick off kids. You deserve a bullet in your head or whatever something like it just something to that effect and it was just like. Wow he just had everything everybody just like he was and he knew it he knew it. He was getting so much attention from this Then october twentieth nineteen sixty nine zodiac calls. The oakland police department demanding that one of two prominent lawyers and they portray this in the movie as well. F lee bailey or melvin. Belli appear on. Am san francisco talk. Show kate on k. g. o. t. b. hosted by jim dunbar belly did appear on the show Dunbar appealed to the viewers to keep the lines open eventually someone claiming to be the zodiac galled. Which was really weird. I'm i'm. I'm wondering if that's the actual recording and they made wonder i meant to look that up but i didn't but if it is they have like his voice his voice all right. Several times said that his name was sam belly agree to meet him in daly city. But no-one arrived so and that was also portrayed in the movie. I thought they did pretty good the movie. Did they kept it pretty true. Yeah fat facts. I mean you how do you. You can't dramatize that anymore. Yeah it was a good movie. It was pretty. It's like an all star cast cast and me and our watched it the other night. I was like i know we watch this movie before. But why don't i remember all these details like like prior fell asleep or something which happens. Yeah so if you watch. That movie zodiac robert. Downey junior plays the chronicle reporter. Paul avery jake. Dylan plays young robert gray smith and mark ruffalo plays detective. Dave touchy on november. Eighth nineteen sixty nine zodiac mailed a card with another cryptogram consisting of three hundred and forty characters. This cipher was dubbed the z. Three forty so all these ciphers had like different names especially the ones that they couldn't decide figure. This is the one we started talking about on the last episode and now fifty one years later it's been solved. I think it was like december fifth by an international team of private citizens. Listen talking about this community and people just like which is crazy. How do they know they got it right because there were other people thought they got it and it was. I think because the language the language in it too. I don't know there is so many ciphers out there and there's like a few others that haven't been completely deciphered. Yeah i guess all the three forty ones. They haven't gotten a complete. They've gotten some a bit and those weren't right the one he got the whole thing. 'cause i watched his australian interview Did you watch. He did a whole interview on us in australia. He must be from australia. There's three guys one of them's wants from the us and the other one's from. I think he's from germany or something. Yeah i watched the australia guy. And he was talking about how they figured it. Bow interesting blake. That's destroying. He's a mathematician. Yes yeah and then david. Orange check a software engineer from the us and then Gerald van eyck computer programmer from belgium. Mp crazy crazy by people spend so much. But that's just that whole puzzle thing we want to figure it out. You're out we have to come up with the answer. So it's like i'm glad they did but at the same time. It doesn't tell you a damn thing right. It didn't say he said if they figured it out his name would be in. It was his name in it. No that's not the one with the name. They said his name would in that one. I don't think it was that one. I think it's a different one. So they submit their findings for the fbi. The fbi states at the dakota message gave no further clues to the identity. You react which i mean i read on the last one. It was like i said kind of like my aunt math and it was childish. It was. I'm having fun or something like that ridiculous. And there's no theory pull it up and then okay i can read it again. So the zodiac continued to communicate with authorities for the remainder of nineteen seventy via letters greeting cards to the press in a letter. Postmarked april twentieth thousand nine hundred seven neva zodiac wrote. My name is seem to blink followed by thirteen character cypher. This is the this is one zodiac went on to state that he was not responsible for the recent bombings. A police station in san francisco. I i liked. I need to point. That out. Right wasn't me referring to the february. Eighteenth nineteen seventy death of say sergeant. Brian mcdonnell two days after the bombing park station in golden gate park but added there is more glory to killing a cop in a kid c. I d know because a cop can shoot back. The letter included a diagram of a bomb. The zodiac claimed he would use to blow up a school bus. At the bottom of the diagram he wrote zodiac killer symbol dot. Spg equals ten. So kiss himbal. Oh okay ten. S san francisco p dsp. Sf pd equals zero. Oh that's right 'cause he and he was yeah because he was claiming all these others. Okay all right so zodiac sent a greeting card postmarked april twenty twenty eight thousand nine hundred seventy two the chronicle written on a card that says i hope you enjoy yourselves when i have my blast. Molin by zodiac's cross circle signature on the back of the card zodiac threatened to use the bus bomb soon unless the paper published the full details. He wrote he also wanted to start. Seeing people wearing some nice zodiac biden's carried that because because other way who had batons other people have button so he wanted buttons to. That's he said okay in a letter. Postmarked june twenty six thousand nine hundred seventy zodiac stated. He was upset that he did not see people wearing zodiac biden's he wrote. I shot a man. Sitting in a parked car with a thirty eight zodiac was possibly referring to the murder of sergeant. Richard radicek earlier on june nineteenth at five twenty five. Am radicek was writing a parking ticket in his squad car when an assailant shot him in the head with a thirty eight caliber pistol. Radicek died fifteen hours later. That there's another thing out there where it's like. They think he was just taking credit for shit. That was going right was already happening. He was taking credit for all these people that were be. There's evidence that he killed five right. But he's saying he killed thirty trying to verse determining say that. I'm sorry you mentioned that you know so. The san francisco police department denies the zodiac was involved. Murder remains unsolved. Okay there are several other murders that may or may not be linked to the zodiac and one of them is the one thousand nine hundred six six riverside murder of sherri joe bates who was a student of riverside community college. She spent the evening at the campus library annex until it closed at nine pm. So this is one thousand. Nine hundred eighty one banks is that cheri jo bates so this is a sixty six. This is three like a couple of years before the first murder. Yeah because there was no there was a span like he took a break. He wasn't around. This was before the first. This was before the first one that i said here. This was a few years earlier than that. But this kinda came up in a match. The criteria wa-. I haven't heard about this on then. Yeah they did kind of did you watch any of the history chan- they did talk about this and the and this isn't the lady havasu one now this riverside. Oh yes okay. Yeah yeah yeah. i'm sorry all right. Well she spent the evening at the campus library annex until it close at nine pm neighbors reported hearing a scream around ten thirty pm. Bates was found dead the next morning. A short distance from the library between to abandon houses slated to be demolished for campus renovations. The wires in her volkswagen distributor cap had been pulled out. She was brutally beaten and stabbed to death. Ammann's tarmac swatch was torn with a torn wristband was found nearby. The watch had stopped at twelve twenty four but police believed attack occurred much earlier a month later the riverside police department and the riverside press enterprise received letters titled duck confession where the author claims responsibility to the. This is like it's very similar to the bates. Murder provides details of the crime that were not released to the public. The author warns that she is not the first and won't be the last. This is like two and a half years before the zodiac killing. Okay in the future. Okay so the author warns mobile in december of nineteen sixty six. A was discovered carved into the bottom side of a desktop in the riverside city college library titled sick of living unwilling today all the poems in hanoi and actually put up on the site and on instagram and facebook. The poems language and handwriting resembled that of the zodiac letters. It was signed with what was assumed to be. Initials are h during the nineteen. Seventy eight investigation shored. Which by the way can i just say. Does his handwriting for guy guys. Handwriting is usually kinda sloppy right. Does his handwriting seem really meticulous. H- sometimes it does. Sometimes it seems like sears off slow but to me like with the ciphers themselves. Kind of just remind me of lake. Drafting your amy guy. That's been in drafting can do. Yeah you know what i mean. Yeah straight line district yes. Yeah but even. I was watching mike for. I've never seen the guys handwriting that nice it gets so legible i know guys written like i'll be like wow you're handwriting's really nice. But his is. It's like meticulous and some of them right to me keeps i. It's very clean. I guess and legible and so for him that not be a good speller has to be That just made me think might dish mode makes it how to write that well right but be a bad speller doesn't match and then to like the whole cypher. Thing to you during the nineteen seventy investigation sherwood moral california's top overnight. Top question documents examiner. Okay expressing i'm old. Made sense expressed his opinion that the poem was written by zodiac. What they say desks. Yeah it matches through a tip to paul. Avery follows this lead and links this with the zodiac murders on march thirteenth nineteen seventy-one five months after avery's article linking the zodiac to the riverside murder the zodiac mailed a letter to the los angeles times the letter he credited. The police naive free for an in the movie. They show avery. He's the one that member he kinda it looks like he goes to some sketchy place and like don't they have a front door meeting like i'm like why is he doing that. So this is where he goes to meet his contact that kind of tips him off. But there's this other murder that happened prior but he credits the police and not every and i think he had there was like some sort of thing with every heat areas the one that he sent that halloween card to with a shirt. Yeah yeah he did that to be. Yeah he's a man but guy yeah us so he credits. The police instead of avery for discovering the riverside activity but they are only finding the easy ones. That's what he says. There are a hell of a lot more down there which is kind of scary right. So let's talk about suspects so one of the main suspects for this case was arthur. Lay ellen arthur lee ellen. He was also favorite of robert. Gray smith who is played by jake gillan hall movie and the movie is based on his book the zodiac he'd been interviewed by the police. Early in the investigations was the subject of several search warrants over twenty year period on october. Six nine hundred sixty nine. Alan was interviewed by detective. John lynch of vallejo police department. Alan had been reported in the vicinity of late burs brewery brisket okay attack against hartnell and shepherd on september twenty seventh nine hundred sixty nine. He described himself as a scuba diving at salt. Point on that day of the tax allen again came to police attention in nineteen seventy-one when his friend. Donald channy reported to police in manhattan beach. California that allen had spoken of his desire to this guy was not bad. Yeah he's spoken of his desire to kill people and he used the name zodiac to secure and secured a flashlight to firearm for visibility at night he. Oh tell me when you're it. According to channy or cheney. His conversation occurred no later than january. First nineteen sixty nine and september nineteen seventy-two san francisco. Police obtained a search warrant for allen's residents in nineteen. Seventy four allen was arrested for sexually assaulting a twelve year old boy. He pleaded guilty and served two years in prison. At which time. that's well. I thought of as three years but there was three or span. Yeah and there was that three year break up to seventy four and he was in prison the whole time so math. That's why he was. I come on. This shit is matching up right. Can't go either so many reasons. It's not him right right. I mean there's so. He's not my favorite yet for wine. His dna did it match anything that they had. Well he didn't have the. I don't i don't think they had. Dna matched to him so that you can't say that it didn't match they know they. They did match because he awake because they said he often had other people licking stamps. Yeah so they wouldn't know yeah but they. They did get his dna. I forgot what it was but there was like maybe because i had whole shetler i know they got his. Dna somehow did get his dna. Okay they got the zodiacs. Dna and this didn't imagine didn't match because but it wasn't just the stamps they got actual demand. I think it was because what they have dessert. He act sexual. Yeah but i don't know that they had this guy's annhilated got his dna. Okay they did. You watch more of that than i did says. Most of the evidence for allen's allen was circumstantial however his. Dna didn't match up and none of his handwriting ever matched up with zodiac letters. He also had cut up animals in his voice. He wasn't freak. And i can't believe only did like a couple of years. This guy was a free you done talking about him. Don't don't move on yet. Tell me when you're done on the hampton. Okay wait he also had bombs in his home from embalm megan stuff and here. His dna did not match but it was said he had others liquor stamps. His writing didn't match like you said Okay then there s meet save up the else. Did you want me to read that cipher. Yeah now yuck oh for the one that we got so excited with that last thing you'd think he's our favorite but is he no okay. It says. I hope you are having lots of fun trying to catch me. That wasn't man the tv show which brings up a point about me. I'm not afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me to paradise spelled with a c all the sooner because i now have enough slaves to work for me everywhere. Everyone else has nothing when they reach paradise again with the sea so they are afraid of. I am not afraid. Because i know that my new life will be an easy one impera dice. Death alvis are but so what does he say you know. They think he had accomplices. Or like copycats. Maybe maybe he trained some crazies. Think wake maybe a couple of murders were like one guy and then maybe well not. They think click. There's one of the theories there is like not all of murders are like zodiac. Because he did. He did have the habit of claiming things that he hadn't done so interesting. Ted kaczynski who also known as the farmer yes was one of the suspects living in san francisco during the time he was investigated for possible connections to the being zodiac killer nineteen ninety-six. He worked in northern california at the time of the zodiac murders and like the zodiac had an interest in cryptography and threaten the press into publishing his communications so but then that didn't pan out then there was also bruce davis a member of charles manson's manson family co A convicted murderer. He was investigated. But no evidence linking him to the zodiac murders was discovered. Okay so. I didn't go into all of them. There's another one that they like high highlighted on That are you going to bring up another one. Yes okay there's also are all van bass junior who i'm gonna let you go till about. It's not the one okay. And then there's ross sullivan that's well. That's one of them. But that's not all right. I'm going to admit to you russell. And my favorite. Hey you go into that one and then choose. The can't wait to share favorite. Is although he's kinda. I was torn torn between him. And this other guy but then the further i went into it online. New it is this guy. I don't think. I finished all the history channel staff though so i might be jumping into soon. It's okay. I'm so i'm going to lay him out. I so russell. Alvin who's recently become a favorite among the zodiac slip sleuth community and was also spotlighted in the history channel's hunt for zodiac. Which is really interesting if you wanna watch it. It's all on youtube He became a person of interest through the possible link between the zodiac killer and the murder of sherri joe bates in riverside sullivan was a library assistant at the riverside city college and was suspected by co workers who also he was sketchy who said that. He went missing for several days after the murder. Ooh sullivan resembled sketches of the zodiac. He really weight an height and wear military style. Boots and military style style clothing. And here's the weird thing that he always wore military fatigues and stuff then. He disappeared after the murderer and comes back to normal school close. Which is really weird. So and then. The footprints matched up with those at the barista crime-scene also the footprint expert said the footprint belonged to someone that wait at least two hundred pounds. Selva was hospitalized. Multiple times for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. He was the only one of the suspects that happens to have the riverside connection. His own brother. Apparently thought that ross might be the zodiac. Ross died in nineteen seventy seven. And that is where my parts very saum. Wake and let me just put the disclaimer. While i'm saying no did it and almost saying yeah. Now i'm right you're wrong. She probably right. And i'm probably wrong. And i know that. I just think connections are so wrong except for right here. Okay you can have your opinion. I have moment here. Okay well first of all. Can i go down my list of susp. Yes okay. i didn't name no. You did a long these interesting. I ball. I want everybody to know the your stepfather back in the eighties or seventies or sixties or whatever. It might have a photo that looks just like that sketch. And it's an. He may be a douche bag but it doesn't mean he's a murder okay so in two thousand seven dennis coffman. Did you hear about that. One is the governor of the book. no oh He made a claim that his stepfather jack torrance did read. I did read off that one. Yeah and he was hard core going on all the news and everything saying that. He founds Okay that he went. In the attic he found similar executioner style hood same with the zodiac symbol on it yes and as well as a bloody knife he said and they all say this. The handwriting styles are the same he and so he said all that would match up Somehow i guess people didn't take him seriously or didn't it. There's a lot a lot of these people that come forward are like. It's my dad. First of all why would you want your dad to be the zodiac killer. And anyway okay. That's such a bizarre thing right. Not even just the step thing. This was actual. I took to stepdad. Your case of the james earl van best junior was step two or no humil- biological dab. Okay okay so. Seven years later gary stewart wrote a book and has his hulu special about What's his dad's name again. Earl van best junior earl van. Bess junior now this guy. His biological father earl Abandoned him when he was four weeks. Old probably the best thing. That could happen to him and his mom. Yeah mom says she did not know she went out. Went to work came home. The dad said he's not here anymore. He left him at an apartment complex. Or something. I don't know and the mon- later reunites with. She finds him france. Gary will gary him. Reuniting with his mom missile much to him. It went so well the he decides he wants to find out who is biological father is so he goes on this hunt for his biological father and then he did not intend for it definitely. He did not intend for it to go down this rabbit hole. He says but it did at the point where he was given a picture of his dad. The only picture he has of his books is so called biological dad That was given to him from the police station. I believe it later. He thought it was a driver's license. Picture later turns out to be the mugshot Because his earl ends up basically raping his mom she fourteen when they met she was getting off with school bus which is another like whom this is his fascination with school buses kids and anyway so she he went after her and finally hooked her and got pregnant and her parents kept Burpee kept going finding her arrest having him arrested putting her in juvie blah blah blah. The final ended up. She got pregnant by him and then they run off together and she has this baby. He can handle it when she goes to work. He puts this baby in a trunk and sit on my god. Yeah because he doesn't want to hear it cry and so Now the end result was at four weeks. He ends up getting rid of the baby and she come hearst her story as she didn't know anything about it comes back. She says she left him right away. It turns out she didn't. She left him like a month later. Whatever read the book anyway trying to do my really quick version so anyway. He counts this photo and It was like one of those america's most wanted kinda stories and they flashed this the joined. Everybody sees up on the tv and was like he said he couldn't even speak. I guess he says a sound came out of his mouth and his son came in and he slide hate. That's you and he's like no. That's my dad. And so that's where he's began thinking. His dad was the zodiac killer. Well like i said that photo looks like just about any man back in those days. So any way he He went down this whole rabbit hole of investigating and saying that His dad's handwriting. Looks just like the killer They're lost people are like no no well and they an in in this documentary. They do have a handwriting specialist. That does confirm that that that could be his handwriting. And then they do. He does his own cipher deciphering and says that his The name his dad's name is in the site the cipher and he says he said he was going to put his name in there and he did and it is in there so but they also debunked it. They were showing How you can make a whole bunch of names out of it. so he he also Their the fingerprints. So they were showing. He had a scar on his thumb. And there's a scar or an index finger. Something while there's a scar in the print and then they they also debunked that saying well. No that's actually the other hand and if you put them together the no match and many people have scars on their hands. So it's more common than you think and then What was another. there's just a lot. You've got to watch the documentary so there was just going to. I would just want to make writing. Yeah so I was listening to the generation by podcast and they had Whose name mike martyred. So he's like one of these people slew saint goes like he's done a lot of research has website and whatever and he was talking about it too like. I don't know this guy you know from but what the piece of handwriting that they got from the dadgum turned out wasn't even the dads handwriting. It was that yes. It's from the marriage certificate. Yeah that's like he's matching up the killer. Yes yes ca point. I forgot about that Oh there's just a whole bunch but but then they would. I appreciate about the documentary. This how they go back. And they debunk no. Then there's this then there's that so. He has the test his dna right against her dna dna. And they're showing how it's smudged you can't really read it and he's like no because you can see there's these numbers and their exact and takes it to its. Listen here's what i got from it. It is somebody. I don't know why you would want it other than you want to write this book and make some money right which the guy isn't hurting for money. Either but all right. I don't know if he wants the attention. Maybe just like it's like trauma to make something fit into a narrative where his he sees his dad. Has this look hey. My dad's zodiac. So he's now he's trying to make the story fit this narrative instead. Why wouldn't you want to discredit it so that you could find who your dad really. Yes your dad really is still alive. Knows it's sad in. And i can't son of a bitch to begin with. Well yeah but we all learn something maybe amano sounds like his mom might learn but whatever it doesn't matter sounds like he was the son of a bitch i mean he he was he wasn't the zodiac killer. Did something right okay. So then what about. Who's your favorite. Was this guy your favorite All right lawrence k. aka came. Oh they did him. That's the one that i did. Okay so it's my favorite is. It really didn't look anything like him though. Not not not not a compass not his own picture but his younger picture when all of it would have happened right. it looks like him. Does he His glasses he has the same classes his the same that the way the chimneys Everything i was like. No i thought it was the guy that you like right. I was with that up until they showed the young him. And i was like now. They keep showing the older him the chubbier with the double chin. And i'm like that doesn't even look anything like him right but the young version skinny it is. I'm like that all the evidence was like. Oh my god so compelling because okay so they interviewed this guy with the girl in lake tahoe Is that what it is. Lake tahoe. No yeah oh god let me see if i have her name on here Darlie oh wait okay. Let me just read this in one thousand nine hundred sixty two. He was involved in a car accident that left him brain damaged in his behavior. A psychiatrist said Cain was losing the ability to control. Self-gratification cane can be seen in the cipher. My name is also in his name hat. The three eighths of equal twenty four and his birthdays nineteen twenty four interesting. He was Lean farren had a sister who said cain would follow her all the time and harasser in the weeks leading up to her murder. He was following a lot more than harassing her interesting. So that connection. And then cain best fits the age and physical description. He lived or worked in that in all the areas. The everything was happening he. He lived or worked. Or was there for something on my god crazy loosely. Okay okay kathleen. Johnson who escaped was able to give the best face description and was able to pick him out of the police lineup seven. They showed photos she picked him. Yes and i did see that. Also on the history channel Did the investigation. The broad zodiac killer to albany new york. They found ross sullivan and kane both have a connection to new york. However it's the cane guy. I think was actually in albany and i think and he actually has. They both have crypto lager. Fear whatever in their probably already set that about sullivan. It's the most interesting thing is so many. Is it that. These suspects like all have so many like similar. Like you can't just throw so many people in a room and you're not going to find that many critical country from california all the way to albany new york. That's so crazy hours crazy to me me too. 'cause it's not even like it's a common thing. That's very unusual specialty. And then cain was a military man with a rap sheet and trained in code writing And also lived in northern california. The time they found a school photo of sullivan did you see that. Okay i have the school photo. Oh yes oh see to me. That is insane by yeah. He was my favorite until. I saw the young photo of this guy. But there's just too much listen to this okay. Eleven years ago. A woman debra perez came forward claiming her father. This another suspect. I'll get that one. Hold on. I gotta find the okay. Okay okay okay. So cain who worked at the same building as the nurse. Was donna donna lass. Yeah donna last night unnamed person in any of the donna. Yeah okay because there was a loosely. It wasn't one of the women corporators. Oh okay volley well. They went and talked to this guy that lived with donna and kane and they were they he really know what the whole questioning was about and he said something like yeah he has zodiac on his wall and they were like wait what zodiac. What and then they realized now like astrological chart and so And then be that's significant because they realized part of the siphoning deciphering whatever They realized they start to figure out something about a thirteen month. Calendar and using the day name dali and how that all an all five murders were done on the same day. All on dali. Did you see that now. All five murders were done on dolly no matter what date and year. It was all on the same day so basically all. I'm like a monday or tuesday. Whatever so whatever day that landed on under thirteen month calendar he. He was using a thirteen month. Calendar which is a gas recreate all about zodiac. Right astrology the whole thing so this guy this guy that lived with them he sold guy. They're talking to was talking about how. Donna really trusted people. And how weird. Kinda cain was and who he said that his mom lived in san francisco and like every so many weeks or whatever once a month he would go to san francisco. So that brings him to san francisco to san francisco and then he also and then his so does he ever riverside connection and seen anything about that one. I didn't look into that. And he was very obsessed with his mother though. That's weird a grossly obsessed. Yeah okay so hold on. Campus abso- Maybe let me see. This dog is bored with us. Already snoring okay. So this mom. Yeah all right. Let's see eleven years ago. A woman debra perez came forward claiming. Her father was a guy ward. Did you talk about him. Hendrickson was the zodiac killer. She said upon seeing. Oh yeah so this woman. I think she's an attorney to and she's like. She saw the composite sketch on and she said she recognized him as her father and she was her father and she found cards or letters that were held by. The police were written by her or her father. Right and then Oh let's not forget ted cruz. And she said she had gone along with him to the killings as a child. I mean obviously jere. My that was weird. She said she would hear gunshots and he would just save was firecrackers. She was only seven Telling her he was sick and killed many people he would bring back glasses and mike. Momento mementos okay. Memento sit. sounds like isa camby okay. Oh oh oh. She says he brought back glasses. Like the cab drivers glasses that the police said they would investigate. But i didn't like. I have those glasses like she's saying they. Fbi like my kelly. I just feel like the things are like if they're true the fbi has been like. Don't you think that have been. Yeah yeah i mean. I would think yeah that i i'm gonna go with the old layer of larry old came canes my guy after. I'm looking at a picture of him yet. You have to get a young picture though. Maybe the young picture. Maybe let me see him. No that's that the gary's dad. Oh white say learnt cain they messed up the internet this one. That's the old picture. Because that's the one i see and nine. There's this one. No there's there's one okay there they filmed one of him standing outside. I hop which they were like okay. How many pictures do people get you have to go to. I hope to get photo taken outside. I hop an audience as you can see him standing next to a truck and you see the i hop Logo on the you. The worst thing the stump. Okay when i say. His name was lawrence came k. dispel lawrence loans. Look your lawrence lawrence. I did that. The law runs. Yeah but that's the young him. I don't know that's the young him Look anything like do you think now. I have to see it next to the black and white to the drawing the drawings. Let me see the drawing. I don't know. I'm still liking sullivan. I like sullivan too. But i like. I like this guy's story makes more sense to me. Oh so on the sullivan one. I guess his brother was that riverside girl that got killed. That was murdered. His brother was dating her sister. And your or out. And she knew in kind just was like now so he was all by her for. I don't know i have nice. Let me see this kenneth. Let me see the drawing again. Held him like this. See the nose are gown now. The hair is definitely not die. Prowls are not no. There's even a cliff thing. It looks like this guy. Mark tom his cheeks too chubby. I'm not like in the photo. I liked the story. But i'm not like in photo now. He got better looking as he got older peak. So look this this picture this one. Okay i don't think when they do those. Those sketches the look like the guy great. Never like i'm like how did they find that guy from that fucking number looks the same sometimes. They're right on no none that i see they try one of these days. I just wanna see them arrest to black and white photo plan because he should the photo up store face inhabit like they're arresting the actual for sunday actually looks like the sketch that's probably been now. Here's another picture. Ross that he was heavyset guy and that the fixtures does not look like he's a heavyset guy walk but in all the descriptions heavyset these barrel chested and like that one where they got his footprints again it It said it was like he had to be somebody that was at least two hundred pounds. So i mean yeah. It was torn between sullivan again. This guy and then right before. I was coming here. I was watching a little bit more. I was like no. I think i like came for god's crazy and then i wanted to see what you were gonna say. I can't believe i don't. I don't know why we've never really gotten into this one but it's kind of a fun like you the job done it. One obviously like it's captivated so many people for years. There's like this huge community out there. People that are just like trying to figure out who it is dry to decipher these ciphers. And yeah you. And i both watched and read and did the same stop but just slightly different brace still. And they're still. We still came up with even more like you came up with more. I came up with some. You came up with more up a lot of good stuff there and crazy. It is crazy it is crazy. There's not more huntings surrounding this. All right i mean. Maybe 'cause they're outside and people aren't really outside doing ghost towns. Yeah i'm gonna say. Is you know. Lovers lane is a bad idea to not to it. Kids don't go to lover. Slain may get your head chopped off by jason. Go to a hotel. No might catch something else there. If you're gonna do it anyways sneak in your bedroom crazy. So that's our first guest of two and happened to me one time. Why is this going. Be lovers lane starting into this guys. We were really drunk to all of us and then i ended up in his room. And then i'm like is your mom. No she sent work. She said were okay. You swear. because i'm not coming if mom's gonna get no she doesn't get off till five right. She came home early. And i am jumping out of the window into. Rose bushes these guys. It's me it was me a rosebush rose bushes shoving me out the window. My god and I'm getting stickers on me a little tipsy. And then i mike running define my friend and i am cracking up laughing. So hard as i'm running out at least had your clothes on right. Yeah we haven't gotten that far far. That's hilarious how old's your on. How are you going to secret old enough for mom to be involved. Oh my god yeah pretty sure. My children don't know that story while they do now now during be like always one of them and then they'll understand why they have lots on their windows and i had the key god's funny because their windows the front of the house so we end their low But there's rose bushes outside those windows for reason and learned And i just had a have lots on the windows because we don't want anybody breaking in what else little breaking out or sneaking anybody in. Aren't you glad that was a smart mom. Yes new year's was on a friday so like could saturday villes grain. I loved christmas. Oh my gosh. How was your christmas. It was amazing. It was like the christmas. I always dreamed up. I love going to my sister's. Don't get me wrong. I missed that but it was so nice just having my kids and their significance and we had a little mexican fiesta no ham or turkey. We had like a melas. Soleil menudo tacos burritos. We had into latte since he laugh. We had this thing. I got Kosovo waste and we had this thing. That i don't know what connor in leslie. Call it but it's delicious. It's like in this iron man chunks of me cheese and peppers and it was very Delicious but yet it's a former tacos buckles and We had some for hell lays and It was nice to it. Was some nice you know i made solely ever. I've never. I can't believe like all these years with the kids and everything that i've never made pasta. Come i don't know was it consistent. You know what the because one year. I tried to make pork tacos and i cooked the the pork. I think it was like pork loin or something like i just cooked it too long and it was tough and i think that kinda scarred me for life to make anything that was pork i just just like i think i'm a good cook. Yeah you are. i've had your stuck with. That was like. I just didn't wanna did you use her. I did not criminals. They have this huge pot that we cook outside. We mix burners outside. No yeah we is up for the new though so used it for the sola and it came out really good. I asked my dear ulli for her recipe. Nice and how long did not take just a few hours. I was like three or four hours about. Yeah so it. Did you have a little hick failure doctor and a little bit of a new mexican because i born in new mexico and i lived there up until i was six years old. But we have my. My mom's family primarily lives in new mexico new mexico. Mexican food is very different than the arizona. Mexican food when i when we moved here when i was very young and mike graham. My dad's mom is from mexico. I did not care for her cooking at all really. Because i was like so used to the new magnum style and my grandma's cooking over there and my mom's cooking and then when we came over here i was like what is the slick. What is this. It took me a long time. It took me a long time to really and not only that but so many people like mexican food here is like come from different regions of mexico. And it's not like new mexican cooking at all no and if you go to a little hole in the wall it's like family owned in have that mexican food it's like. Oh yeah that's mexican food or you can go to like a chain like garcia's in have mexican food right just like mexican food. Yeah new mexican food new mexican food. That's a whole new twist. That is an new. My persona is not like my mom's interest through different kinds of recipes. My mom's muscle is just red. Chili ideas puzzle. A literally has bought the sauce. But it's good so good. It was so good. Carol cannot just say listen listen. I went to for conference right. Kerr committee legal services. And there's this huge spread. They got all these different kinds of foods and they have mexican food. And i'm like this should be interesting and it was like i'm like what is that those case it is everybody saying and i'm like no no i don't know what those are but those are not case it is like do you. People know what mexican food what that is and then they had. I think they were trying to make To base two of us to ya and how to say this the stuffy things right and But i think that's what they were calling the case the. Us and bananas no because they were stopped. Our empanadas stuff. I think because they that's what they were calling the kiss ideas they were these little triangles and they were like us corn or something really anyway. They were not case. ds anyways. I also made. She does which is a totally that is. I can't believe as many times as you went out. I know he knows mention new mexico. Yeah yes off. Blake's mike plays. Okay dammit. I can't believe i didn't save you any i'm gonna make some. Tell me what it's just like I'm going to say sugar cookie. But no sugar cookie snicker doodle. But it's more of a have heard of them. It's it's got the spicy cinnamon and Cinnamon and sugar on the top really really good. Yeah me that. I haven't had one and i think i'm trying to think of what else is. It's very simple recipe like with lard. Best i was watching the special. I had no idea. There's so many different ways to make tortillas did you there is there is yes i was watching the special. They went to mexico And then like right off the border here they were like texas off the border they're like and there's different Gordon and the really thin ones then just tortilla lower. There's there's different lords make them different ways and make them taste different so like flower. Water soluble or salt. And then like if you just use Not bashful art. What is it starred. Yeah and then. Some us better Some use that really butter some us. What else were the lighting. I like butter on my trogir. Yeah me too straight off. I could just like go d- dirty. And i have a great recipe. It's called flower water. Lard salt a helmet Anyway and then they were doing the whole. There's corn tortillas or the but but the difference is the fact that they put into it interesting and it makes tastes different. Stop using lard. Because when we were younger they found out. My brother was diabetic. Four years old so then my mom was. This was her way of making it. A little bit more healthy so she started just using lake vegetable oil and they keep so much longer they really using larger. You have to kind of eat them right away. Their wise they get kinda hard the vegetable oil ones last forever so no lard the last forever. Because they'd rather me they're gone and there's nothing like a made one with well. Wait yes sir. Is i think it's a costco. They sell. And then you heat him up on your thing And cook them are those guys. They're really cyclamate. Roy i'm i've seen them and i'm honored but i've never tried to me. They do going. The closest i've come to cheating is when the kids were small. Uc's the stuff and it's actually made by quaker. It's called napster and they used to have a price but they don't anymore and you just add water so it's like already the largest set off to you do Yeah oh yeah. That's not really got to anyways. I just got a recipe. Not that long ago homemade the best recipe tastes like my mom's actually measured. Yeah i wasn't given this gift. do you make. Have you made tamales gets. We made them last year and the year before while i had we didn't do it this year but i would like to learn. Maybe we should make them together. Show he it among pattern. Yes we shot. Okay let's do. it will make tamales. And then i'll teach you how to make a pizza. I guess you show me how to make up at the patine. Okay guys happy. new year. I think each one menacing on now you are welcome started measuring how many how many since was okay. All right you guys have a good night. Thank you guys for listening. I'm i'm currently.
The Story of a Colonel and His Lady
"Welcome to the witnessing history. Education foundation podcast educating Americans to understand the history of their country and of other countries. So that they will appreciate the value of America's unique free institutions become an American hero. Who participates in our mission by joining us at witnessing history dot org. Download our documentaries and free teacher education materials that conform to grade level education standards at PBS learning Bork, follow witnessing history on Facebook, Twitter and linked in today. Ken will relate the intriguing story of the Colonel and his lady Colonel Eugene Irwin. The grandson of Henry clay served with the confederacy and the sixth Missouri infantry. Thanks to the descendants of Henry clay, the Corinth Mississippi civil war center. Now displays Colonel Irwin's uniform and the van Dorn pattern battle flag under which he fought at Corinth can't is going to tell you how the civil war center acquired these materials. Thank you. Good to be here. I think the best way to approach an answer to that. Is to back up a little bit to win. I I saw them these artifacts. Many years ago. I was. At home and was called on the telephone by a lady here in Lexington. Who was the widow of Henry clay Simpson? And her name was Louisiana would Simpson and we all called her Lou. And Lou called me up and said can't I'd like to show you some civil war things. And of course, anytime you get a call like that if you're guy like me, obviously, your appetite is wetted you're at a fever pitch almost because you wanna see what this is. So I drove over there, and Lou let me in the home and proceeded to show me some things she had one of which was. A book bound volume. It was composed of a lot of clippings. And the book on the front cover red book of memories, and you open it up, and there were all kinds of. Pieces of a federal documents. And as I was flipping through. I saw some military documents. That were signed by Colonel Eugene Irwin. And I asked her I said is this the grandson of Henry clay? And she said, yes, it is. These are his papers. And I said these are phenomenal. I said there are lots of military related things. And then were to passes to allow Eugene, Erwin's, wife and daughter and servant to board. A steamship called the imperial. On the Mississippi River at Vicksburg and proceed to Memphis and then to Saint Louis. And below that was another pass made out to a Lieutenant Hickman. And I began looking at them closely and these passes were in the handwriting of Ulysses grant, remarkable, and he had apparently pen these out himself while she was standing in front of him and along with the Lieutenant, and it did say on the lieutenant's pass that once he safely got her to Saint Louis that he was to return to Vicksburg because he was paroled. Confederate soldier and she then took me to another room and showed me a photograph of this Eugene Irwin in his uniform. And then a photograph of his wife Josephine Russell Irwin. And we talk for a little bit about all those items. And then she said to me. Well, you know, I have one more thing. I'd like to show you, but it's in the bedroom. I said Lou, that's that's just fine. I trust you. She was a bird now. She was she was a funny lady who I adored, but we went into the bedroom. And they're on the on the bed was laid out the van Dorn pattern battle flag. That was carried by the sixth Missouri infantry. Tell us what van Dorn pattern loops light has of strange looking thing people these days think of the confederate flag as being your typical Saint Andrew's cross that get so much controversial talk about it. This is known as the van Dorn pattern, and it's it was prevalent only among troops west of the Mississippi River, Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri and its name for general Earl van Dorn who commanded troops in the trans Mississippi at the beginning of the war. And all the way up through the spring of eighteen sixty two and what it looks like is a red flag. It has thirteen yellow five pointed stars. Five in a row. Two rows on one on top of the other and then three at the top. And then in the left upper quadrant of the flag is a crescent moon also yellow and then the flag is bordered by a yellow wool French. I mean, it looks like a flag that would come from Syria. I can only imagine what that must have what like in MRs Simpson's day. Let me tell you. There are only four of these known to exist and three of them are two of them are in the museum used to be called the museum of the confederacy enrichment is now the American civil war museum and then another one if I'm not mistaken is. In the Louisiana history museum. And but unlike those other three this is the only one that is absolutely identified to a unit. And the reason is so identified is that in the middle of the flag is stitched a piece of linen. And on the linen. It reads. Sixth Missouri infantry. And then words to the effect that Sergeant William huff. Carried this flag at the battle of Corinth Mississippi. On the fourth of October eighteen sixty two and was wounded nine times before he fell. And. I asked Lu reading this. I said. Did Josephine prepare that. And she said, yes, she did. She said her husband Eugene before he went into fighting at Vicksburg. Astor gave her the flag. And said would you please write on here? What happened to us at current? And someone would ask. We'll why would he give away the flag? Well, it just so happened that at the time he did that all the Missouri. Regiments got new flags. I see and the new flags they got were blue flags with a white Latin cross bordered in red. Spectacular. But totally different looking thing and the old van Dorn flags, then we're retired. And so he gave it to her and said being the Colonel of the regiment, he said, I want you to put on there. What happened at Kearns? And that's how that got there. So I mean, it it was a stunning thing to see. I'll never forget it. Obviously, I'm still talking about it. And what would be wonderful to hear about is. How that flag made the journey from Vicksburg to Lexington Kentucky. And how it arrived today? What we can do if you'd like is go back and start with a little bit about. Eugene and Josephine. Yes, how they met and. And. What their life story was? And let me do this. This very fast. Okay. Eugene Irwin was the son of James Irwin. Who was born in Asheville North Carolina raised in Tennessee. But then came to Lexington looking for fortune wanted to practice law here and so forth. And James Irwin, married and Brown clay who has Henry clay's fifth child. He had eleven children. He and Lucretia. Three of them died in infancy and then two of them young Lucretia. And Henry clay junior died as young people. Henry clay junior died at the battle of Blaine of vista. In February eighteen forty seven. But and Brown clay was kind of a favorite of Henry clay's. Although I sense she was never well. Henry clay died at Burke, yellow, cicis. And I suspect that infected most of that household and and and married James Irwin in October eighteen twenty three and. They they had. A number of children one of whom was Andrew Eugene Irwin who is born in October eighteen thirty three and Brown. Clay actually died. Just two years after Eugene was born again, probably to Burke yellows, it just seems to fit that story. Eugene was born here in Lexington at a house that Henry clay helped establish for the Irwin's called the Woodland's and stood on. What is now woodland park as we're woodland park its name, and he grew up there. Of course, he his his mother died very yet when he was very young and. As he grew up. He saw Henry clay son having served as a Colonel in the army. He saw one of his one of Henry clay's. Grandson, Henry clay, the third go to West Point. And he desperately wanted to go to West Point. And Henry clay felt that would not look, right. Having a grand two grandsons at West Point at the same time. And so he dissuade Eugene from that and Eugene wound up telling his grandfather, well, then I'd like to work at a collecting house and go into that kind of business. So he actually worked in a collecting house in New York City. But in March eighteen fifty one the Pacific mail steamship company. That was founded by the to Aspen, wall brothers. William and Lloyd Aspen. Wall offered him a position to work in its Pacific offices. Those offices were in Monterey, California out. Interestingly. There was living in Monterey, California, a family. Henry clay, new knew very well. And this is the the Russell family and this this Russell family Colonel. William Henry Russell. And his wife Zanette Freedland. Russell or living out there. He had been a Kentucky in his father was Robert spotswood Russell, very famous Virginian. For whom Russell county is named Russellville is named Russell cave here in Lexington. The road is named for them. And. Apparently Colonel Russell was instrumental in the house of representatives. When clay was first elected to the United States Senate, then the state legislature, elected senators, and Russell was a significant figure and getting Klay elected to the United States Senate, the Russel's, then moved to Missouri. They went to Callaway county, Missouri where they stayed for some years, and then he moved to California, and he first moved there to become the secretary of state to governor John C Freemont and in eighteen fifty one he was appointed collector of customs at Monterey. Now, Henry clay. Loved all his kids and his grandchildren. And it doesn't take too much to understand that Henry clay probably worked this out. He he probably wrote to the Russel's and told him of this young man this grandson, and that he we we've got him coming to a job in Monterey. And here's the Russel's. He's the collector of customs and by the way, the oldest building in California. It is number one on the California historic. Register is the customs house in Monterey. It's still standing this is where the Russells lived. And where Colonel William Russell worked. Okay. So it's still their thing. No. What what what makes this story fund? Now is that? They had a daughter. Named josephy? Who was about the same age as Irwin. Well, of course, working in Monterey and. Along the the harbour there. He was constantly in touch with these people probably live for a while with them and to make a long story short, the two of them fell in love and decided to to get married and. They the two of them road all the way back to Callaway county, Missouri. And there they were married in July eighteen fifty three Josephine Russell and Eugene Irwin K. They decided to settle in Independence, Missouri in Jackson county, and the reason they decided to go. There was that he Eugene wanted to become involved in his own business and feel recall. This is the eighteen fifties. The great trails that lead to the Pacific. The Santa Fe trail all originate out of independence. And so he thought if he could open up a dry goods store would help settlers acquire the goods, they need to get across the plains that it could make a good living, and apparently because of the the state left behind by his father who was not a very savory character in many ways who left an enormously complicated state. He bought land without reference to his wife, you put it in the names of other people. And so the minute he died the lawsuits fluid. He was living in New Orleans, which is. Go figure, and so Henry clay tried to intervene in some of that. But he died in eighteen fifty two in June of eighteen fifty two and never really saw to the end. And we really don't know whether there was much acquired by Eugene Irwin as a result of that state. But there was probably something and whatever there was he was going to use it to try to build a business. And so they moved independence and there before the civil war by the time. The civil war broke out. They had three children. They were all daughters. Lucretia clay was born in eighteen fifty four her nickname was Lula. And then Nettie Russell in eighteen fifty seven and then Mary Webster in eighteen sixty one. And by the way, the descendants of those three girls, they're all still here. Lots of them are all still here. When the war broke out in eighteen sixty one. Eugene cast his lot with the with the confederacy. And the reason he did. So was simply that's where all his neighbors were as for all his acquaintances were in Independence, Missouri, and he joined an a Missouri militia unit, and he fought at the battle of Wilson's creek in eighteen sixty one and then again at P ridge are elk horn tavern. But by may eighteen sixty two he had been named Lieutenant Colonel of the sixth, Missouri infantry. And he would take command of the six Missouri infantry at gun town, Mississippi magin that name in August eighteen sixty two and he would be Colonel and its commander, and he. He was there taking over command or named Lieutenant Colonel in may. So that unit missed the fighting at Shiloh, right? That was just north in and just across the border from Mississippi, but he withdrew with the rest of the confederate army that in in in the weeks and months after the battle of Shiloh back to to below and then began an operation, which resulted in the battle of Kearns. And what you have is current Mississippi is the site of two great railroads crossing one another. So it's a great crossing is called Carmen. And so you have the Memphis and Charleston railroad from Memphis, Tennessee going through. Current all the way to Chattanooga. And then from Chattanooga. You can get rail lines to take you to Richmond Virginia or you can get realize that would take down to the Carolinas. It would that was literally the longest east west railroad in America. Out of Columbus Kentucky was another railroad that ran north to south. And that is now the Illinois central railroad than it was the Gulf mobile or the mobile in Ohio railroad for many many years, and ultimately the Gulf mobile and Ohio mobile in Ohio railroad in the twentieth century. But that railroad began at Columbus Kentucky went south all the way through car crossed the Memphis and Charleston straight down to two below and all the way to mobile that was the longest north south railroad in America. And so Corinth became a critical site. And the object in the late summer of eighteen sixty two and the confederate high command in the west was to find a means by which they could attack Corinth and retake it the federal troops after Shiloh had come in and take in Kearns. And so this is the first major engagement in which Eugene Irwin is going to command the six, Missouri. And he does so on the on October third through the fifth eighteen sixty two. This to protect Corinth the federal forces built huge gun emplacements around all those railroad, and then infantry trenches and emplacements connecting these gun emplacements for for field artillery. And the object was that the confederate forces would attack those emplacements north of the Memphis and Charleston. And then some would try to attack it from the south and the east, and if they could break through the outer works get to the inner works and then break through them. They could take Collins so beginning on the third of October eighteen sixty two they tried. And the sex Missouri in general Martin Green's brigade of Louis abors division in sterling Price's command strolling prices from Missouri. They attacked the works north of the Memphis and Charleston in north of of current and they're in a standup fight. The command of Eugene Irwin, which went into the fight at nearly four hundred strong his regiment came out with twenty three men. He was wounded now some of these men would recover from wounds some of them, of course, would not but. In in the sum, total within three four months of the fighting at Corinth, probably half, the regiment was left. It was just a devastating attack. And and Irwin himself was badly wounded in the foot, and he was taken to Holly springs where he recuperated and then rejoined his command. And as he rejoined his command in the late fall of eighteen sixty two it was directed to the defenses of Vicksburg and. So you gene in the six Missouri were sent to Vicksburg, and they were first deployed at a place called grand Gulf just above the pretty little town. Even today of port Gibson Mississippi. And grand Gulf is a bluff overlooking the Mississippi on the on the Mississippi side, of course, where there were significant artillery placements to prevent shipping from coming up or down the Mississippi River, at least shipping they didn't want federal shipping. And then there were all sorts of entrenchments for inventory, and so forth up there, and where there was elaborate defenses being made in Vicksburg. There were also defenses that were significantly separated from Vicksburg and this one at grand Gulf is one of them. And so there's where they were assigned and for weeks. He would communicate send write letters to Josephine who is still in Independence, Missouri. And finally Josephine learned that her husband is not doing well. L that he is sick. And you can see this this recurring thing this to Berkeley problem with the family, and which is common in the nineteenth century, by the way, this is really common in the nineteenth century, and she decides to they have three girls to Marill young was only born in eighteen sixty one. And so she decides to leave the two young ones with a housekeeper and she takes a servant and Lula. And they get in a wagon, and they go all the way from independence to Saint Louis watch. They get to Saint Louis, she boards, a steamer, which takes her to Memphis. They can't get any farther. Okay. At memphis. Those three. Land. And she finds a way to get a wagon and horses. And takes that all the way to grand Gulf. Now, she had heard that he was at grand Gulf. But how she wound up finding it going, and I tell you can ride on interstate fifty five from Memphis to Jackson Mississippi. And I mean, it's an endless ride. It is an enormous distance. And but she wants up in the at grand Gulf and is reunited with Eugene. If you can imagine. Well. You continue to fast forward here. No sooner or they reunited, then there's a threat to Vicksburg. And the thread is in a union army of the Tennessee commanded by your Lizzy grant, that is descending. The Mississippi River. All through the winner. Grant has tried to figure out a mechanism to strike Vicksburg. E can't just land troops at Vicksburg and think they're going to get on ground because of the heavy guns that are placed along that river, defend it. It's a blood on a bigness on a bluff. Yeah. And they're gun in placements all over those. Plus, and there would be no chance for them to attack it frontally so grants. Gotta figure out how to get there. He tries means of of attacking it from the north. And it winds up a disaster. And then he finally figures out what he can do is is move. His army across Louisiana on the Louisiana side. Go all the way to Louisiana and then in order to get the transport vessels down there to transport the troops from Louisiana to Mississippi across the river. He has to get that entire water navy down there that has the transport vessel as well as the gun boats to protect the crossing. So what happens is that? He's going to determine to what you call run. The Vicksburg batteries with these with his navy the freshwater navy, so Dave. Vid Porter's fleet on April sixteen with its troop transports gunboats everything at dark a descends. The river comes within range of those guns, and the confederates let let everything loose on them. And they managed to pass it with the loss of some some bows. But they pass it to get enough by so. By April, twenty nine grant and David Dixon porter. The the Admiral of that fleet have enough vessels in the Mississippi just between grand Gulf and Vicksburg to believe they can get by grand Gulf next. So on the. Huge huge. I mean, you've got an army of nearly one hundred thousand troops and a navy that sets this is completely call a combined operation and so on the twenty nine April that fleet then runs by grand Gulf. And I can't remember I remember being at grand Gulf and reading the amount of tonnage of shells that were hurled at the confederate defenses at grand Gulf is astronomical, but they pass those guns. So now, they're south of grand Gulf just just in the river below port Gibson, and there's a little village located on the Mississippi called Bruins bird. And there is where they're going to land all these tropes. Go to Louisiana side of the river, pick them up. Take them across the river, lay them off go back to the Louisiana, and these vessels just come back and forth relaying troops and the first. Core thirteenth. Core gets across the river on the first of may eighteen sixty three in this is John mclernon thirteenth corps. And as they're forming their along the beach. Eugene Irwin's regimen is quickly called to help defend the town of port Gibson. And so he journeys with his regimen on foot eight miles to finally come into the lines and all day long on the first day. They defend port Gibson ultimately. And he's very ill. I mean, he's very sick. But they put up a hell of a fight. And but still the federal troops keep landing more and more and more and they keep getting onto their flanks, and it becomes impossible. So they break off the defense, and you know, Josephine after the war wrote novels, and there were kind of. Postwar? What do they call it kind of a lost cause of novels reminiscent about what it was like when but she has one passage in there in one of her many novels that is almost autobiographical. I mean, the whole novels autobiography for this one passage is that she the the figure in the book is at port Gibson when she was yes. And at the fighting is a fighting ends in the confederates begin to withdraw to their they get across the bridges of bio Pierre. So huge a river that runs through port Gibson as they go to cross the bridges. They pour coal oil on those bridges and set them on fire and here, it is one and two in the morning, and these bridges are all burning outside of pretty little port Gibson and the army withdraws and. Just. Sort of image that you put in your head. To make a long story short of this the confederate forces, not only withdrew back from port Gibson grant. Basically pushed them all the way to the outskirts of Jackson, Mississippi the capital. He winds up seizing Jackson burning all the of industry and internal workings of the city while the confederate forces start to now back up with their back to the west. And they're now withdrawing back toward Vicksburg as grant is pressuring them from the east from Jackson, and there's a major engagement at the big Black River outside of Vicksburg on the seventeenth of may and it caused the confederates again to withdraw and they retired completely across the big black and then on into the defenses of Vicksburg. And no sooner does grant come up to the defenses of expert. These are elaborate defenses then on may nineteen. He orders an assault against them, and they attack places like stockade Redan sherman's fifteenth Korda's on the nineteenth. May in fact, I think on the nineteenth of may there were more medals of honor awarded in one day than any other time in the war, but grant failed he failed. He tries again on the twenty second. May this time he used he fights he literally attacks everything. East of Vicksburg and he uses sherman's as well. As James bird's-eye McPherson core. Both of those core to make the assault and they fail. That's how tough these defenses are expert. Then finally, the assaults are renewed. On the next day this time by general ords thirteenth corps. He had taken over from John mclernon grant, sacked mclernon and put in his buddy, ole general orde, and and that failed. So here grant three days. Everything everything. Can't he can't break into it? And so he put set the stage now Eugene Irwin is in Vicksburg Josephine is with him. After the last failure on may twenty third grant decides he just going to lay siege to the city just cut it off from everything and we have diaries see forty seven days forty seven days, and there's no food. No munition living in caves living in eating rats dogs. Mules anything they can find and. So for forty seven days grant, lay siege. He at one time decides he's going to try to break his own siege. By breaking the lines of the confederates and the way you break. Those lines is to dig a mine berry about twenty two hundred pounds of gunpowder and blow it up and once it's blown up and take your commands nearest where that happens in trying to push them through there. So you create a breach in the defences, and then push your troops in there. Well, there's a Redan on a caller Redan. It's a gun emplacement that overlooks the Jackson road the main road coming into Vicksburg from the east, and this is always been known as the third Louisiana Redan. And if you go to Vicksburg, you can see the third Louisiana Redan because it's all still intact. And that was held by a regiment. The third Louisiana infantry in Louis bears brigade these guys had fought with a six Missouri through many engagements in John H forties division, and the six Missouri was in in a rear posture posture in the rear of the of the army a probably near where the city cemetery is. And they were there as a reserve. He the whole six six the whole, Missouri. Brigade was there the first four fifths and six Missouri infantries were all in this reserve position and grant decides that he's going to try to mine underneath that Redan. And so he has he assigns one of his artillery officers. Also, pretty good engineer named. Andrew hickenlooper. And if you go to Vicksburg Hickenlooper 's bronze memorial is staring at the third Louisiana Redan, but he oversees all these troops who are literally mining under the ground to and then they would build parallel gun, a parallel trenches. So as the mind got closer to the Redan infantry could get on either side of it and fire at the defenders, why the louisianans aware of the efforts you exactly what they were. They've been even dug a counter mine, really. But this aware worthy that save for the skirmish lines facing the union troops as they were trying to get to that they withdrew almost everything out of that Redan to the rear, including the art. Arkansas appeal battery four gun battery of three inch ordinance rifles were withdrawn out of there. So because it want to lose them. Night. They knew they're going to blow a mind. Okay. So so here here here, they go and. They get underneath there. They bring in twenty two hundred pounds of gunpowder and on the. Of. Late at night late night after noon on June twenty fifth eighteen sixty three member they tried to assault on the nineteenth may the twenty second. I may the twenty third of may. And then this operation starts and finally on the twenty fifth of June. They basically light the fuses and this entire Redan just goes up this explosion. It's the mother of all mom. And other ways BUSTER. Our listeners will probably will undoubtedly hear me, and we'll grain about talking about the crater at Petersburg, which was formed the same way. It was another mining operation. This was grant's first attempted Amman. Well, it blew up. And then the third Louisiana came back into the into the picture and began to resist the attack which wasn't expected fate obliterated the Thirdly. Yeah. They did their union troops. They here comes an entire regiment of the third Louisiana and behind them is called the six, Missouri. That's gene. So that's Eugene or our hero and Eugene. Gene brings forward the six, Missouri. And there are some great quotes from soldiers in the third Louisiana as they see the six, Missouri, come alongside them. These are are old friends. We had fought on many field with and Eugene. I witnesses to this Eugene has his staff and field officer sword in his hand. And he yells for his men to follow him, and he mounts the barricade the wall of that what was left of that Redan. And as he gets over on the top. He comes within the sites of all those muskets from the union troops. They opened up a tremendous volley in three bullets hit him in the chest. And you gene, windfalls falls dead. Nevertheless, the attack of the six Missouri in the third Louisiana is successful. And grant is unable to break through the. Well, his troops Eugene's troops. Bring his body back to their camp again, probably near the city cemetery. And they're they probably. Buried it. In the Mississippi River. With wait and let it sink like, you would bury a sailor. There's probably little else they could have done and yet here in Lexington in the cemetery. There's a marker marker. I know I'll get to about that. Is he wasn't buried there. No, I don't. I don't think he is. But I'll talk about that in just a minute. Okay. So here's Josephine left with nothing. She has her little daughter and the African American servant that company them and starved to death dirty is can be you can imagine living like that in a cave. Because the Bard mints from the union lines were so ferocious that. I mean, you had either live in a cave or you die out there and with nothing to eat. And here's a little child. And and to make matters worse. She's pregnant. And she's in desperate shoes in desperate circumstances. And. It just so happens. Sometimes things happen that are remarkable. It's so happens that among the prisoners after the surrender at Vicksburg on the on the fourth of July Vicksburg, surrendered to grant. An all those confederates who are the defenders became a subject to being paroled, which meant they are officers signed a statement saying they would not bear arms unless exchanged and they were all waiting for their paroles 'cause grant would have to print them and. Well, they were waiting Lieutenant William Hickman happen to see a union officer walk by him, and he recognized him because this union officer appeared to be the same one who was his prisoner of war after the fighting current, and this this this union officer was Colonel Thomas Fletcher. Okay. Who commanded the thirty first Missouri union and infantry, Missouri. This is like a Kentucky story where you've got him fighting on both sides and Fletcher after the war would become governor, Missouri. This this this is a apparently a man of significant stature, but Hickman saw him inhaled to him. He says Colonel do you? Remember me? The Colonel turned around and looked said, yes, I remember you you were so kind to me at current when I was your prisoner. He says how are you doing? And he says, well, you can imagine what he would respond to that to that. But he says he's do anything for you. Ten in Hickman said not for me. He says, but you can for the widow of our Colonel who you will remember. And he says, yes, I do remember him. And he was killed on the twenty fifth of June. This is the fourth fifth or sixth of July, whatever after the surrender. And Fletcher says where itchy and Hickman said she's living in a cave told him, the approximate location of that cave where that actually was we have no idea maybe again near the cemetery present-day cemetery and Fletcher turns to him and he says, quote, I can take care of that. And quote. So Fletcher goes and find her. And says if you would follow me, I'll take you to grant's headquarters, and we'll see if we can get you out. So josephine. Now get this Eugene gave her that battle flag. Van Dorn flag. She wraps it around her waist under her dress. And then comes back out of the cave and says, I'm ready to go. So Fletcher takes her to the lump house on Washington street in Vicksburg and the Lum houses no longer there. But it was grant's headquarters, and it overlooked the Mississippi River, and they walk inside. And Fletcher introduces Josephine to grant. And grant is very gracious than ask her. What can I do for you, ma'am? And Fletcher says general her husband was killed on the twenty fifth June at the mine. And he's the grandson of Henry clay. And this is his widow, and she has a little daughter and African American servant, and they would like to try to get out there starved and dirty and they need to get home. Grant, sits down and writes out those two passes that loose Simpson. Showed to me. Can you imagine this all in his own handwriting? Their names yesterday. Then for than for Lieutenant Hickman. He he says I want I want the Lieutenant to accompany her. But he said to Fletcher remind him he's to be paroled. So he's got to come back here. Yeah. Fletcher said he would tell him because he told grant that he and Hickman have gotten to be friends and so grant then stands up hands the passes to justify. And then extend his hand, shake her hand says I spent a pleasure meeting you and she would not shake his hand. Hartfield things. Well, it's just been killed. Yes. She's overwhelming Reese, anywhere grant says fine, and they leave. They board the steamer of imperial which takes Josephine and her daughter and servant and the Lieutenant all the way to Saint Louis where they depart Hickman then takes the steamer back to Vicksburg. And she goes all the way God knows how to Independence Missouri is remarkable as his story, there's more and there's more. She's an incredible woman for all of Colonel Irwin's never having served as a soldier, it appears to me that the six Missouri found a real strong sense of leadership in him. You you tell you the official records of the war of the rebellion. The reports of officers of regiments commanders regiments commanders brigades divisions, or you cannot read. Any reports of any of his superior officers. Brigade commanders division, a- matters who don't state that. This was an exemplary officer everyone after every engagement whether it's the big Black River, whether it's current or whether it's his actions at Vicksburg, and he wasn't the one who went to West Point that was his cousin and he didn't he didn't complete West Point. Henry clay third. Yeah. So this guy this guy had had this, quote, the stuff, and it was a great soldier. Anyway. She so she is back in independence. Well, she's. There's there's nothing for her there. Her whole life is gone now has been gone all the friends are gone most the war some of them have never returned. Probably never will. And then they then the union occupation force in forces in Missouri. Declare martial law and order any confederate sympathizers to leave state. So you Josephine there's only one thing she can do. She writes a letter to John Morrison. Clay, Henry clay's youngest, son. Who took over Henry Claes bloodstock business raising cattle and horses. While Henry clay was still alive. And ran it. Now ran it in the middle in during the war and his his his farm where he lived was not at Ashland his brother James live there. But he lived at a place called Ashland on the Tate's crate pike. And for those of you who are locals who know Lexington Christ. The king Christ the king cathedral stands on the approximate site of teach Craig of Ashland on the tapes creek pike. And there he lived in a Greek revival home. Brick house beautiful brick house and raised horses and Herod cattle than. I mean, he was a great great farmer is this great stock Palmer. And but but interestingly he was a Lincoln supporter and a Republican. And what's interesting is that so was Josephine's father and mother assaults the Russel's. So imagine how difficult all this was. But John Klay writes her back saying, here's a confederate widow a confederate widow who by the way. Yeah. And he knew Eugene. Of course, he grew up. Will you? Will you grew up with you grew up with him. And he says, please join me come over come live in Lexington. So Josephine Russell gets her her three little ones in a way. Again. She lost the baby that she was she was pregnant and in January of sixty four. And so she has her three little daughters, and they go from Independence, Missouri. All the way till Lexington. I mean, I just can't even begin to think of what that was like and John clay welcomes him to his home and. There starch another chapter that is almost as remarkable as the prior ones. She becomes involved with him in the business. And when John. This way. They fall in love. And he he was a bachelor he was a patch of I've been married, and he was living with his mother Krisha right Krisha was living there, and then she died in toward the end of the civil war. And so. John Morrison, clay and Josephine Erwin. Are married in eighteen sixty six eighteen sixty as twenty eight he's forty seven on July seventh. I think it was eighteen sixty six. Okay. And so she's been married to the grandson of Henry clay now, she's married to Henry clay's youngest, son. I don't mind. Stranger than fiction. We could write this. It's unbelievable. When when. John clay dodge, Josephine winds up taking over the farm. And get this. Now he dies in about eighteen eighty seven for about twenty years twenty years. Wow. Okay. And she takes over the farm, and she becomes the first commercial first woman commercial horse breeder in the world. Now this farm, by the way is no small thing. I mean, right. They have raised. They'll raise to Kentucky Derby winners Riley. Forgot the other one too early Kentucky Derby winners they will raise three or four English Darby winters there. They'll have mayor standing out there that from them will come like six more Kentucky Derby winners. It's one of those remarkable horse farms of its time anywhere in the world in MRs huge, huge farm twenty five miles of plankton rail fence, exactly yeah. Exactly, exactly. And you would see her by the way out on the farm. She knew every horse. It seems by name. We would call them by their name and they'd all walk over. And and it greater what she would be. You would see her with a address or even some bridges. And a shirt with a broad brimmed hat and a Colt pistol stuck in her belt, which resume Josephy. No. And and she. She'll be seen everyday like that. And when finally the. The it was almost time really her time it kind of run out as a manager of this business and the business began to fail and just before she died they had they had an auction of the whole place and all the stock which must have been terrible, frankly and the herald leader the. Forerunner of the herald leader reporter came up to her after the sale and ask her how she felt it went. And she said, well, I think it went fine. And then he goes Josephine. Let me ask you do you have any regrets in life? And she says this. She says, yes, I do one. And that is I didn't shake grants hand. She remembered that. It almost brings the whole story to a wonderful conclusion, really. But that's the story of the Colonel and his lady, it's a wonderful story. I've loved another remarkable tale out of Kentucky. Yeah. Yeah. Strong characters. And. Yeah, just amazing. People of extraordinary will and strength strength, and wills right and toughness. Could withstand all most anything wouldn't replace and triumph. There's a huge triumph in this all across the board and for her in particular, and then the remarkable way the descendants preserved the items that are now in the current civil wars center will thank you can't for welcome telling us this story to your well, they're great chapter in witnessing history. Thanks for joining us pleasure. Always become an American hero. Who participates in our mission by joining us at witnessing history dot ORG. 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