12 Episode results for "Duwamish River"
What otter poop can tell us about a river
"Support for Seattle now comes from the Northwest Maritime Center hosting the Virtual Wooden Boat Festival on September twelfth. The festival features ask an expert masterclasses, storytelling, documentary films, and more INFO at virtual WB F. Dot. Org. Hey, it's Patricia Murphy. It's Monday Labor Day, and this is Seattle now I. Hope you're having a great holiday. We're taking the day off to we'll be back tomorrow until then here's an episode from our friends at Kyw's the wild podcast it's about how scientists are using auto pooped checkup on the health of the Duwamish. River here's the wilds Chris. Morgan. Oh you beauty look that about walking in the woods by my house in northern Washington state and I've just spotted one of my favorite things in the forest. Okay this is. Really special a fresh deposit of SCAT. In this case, DA droppings, these ones are cute little things. Like a little pile of. Mini Milk Duds. Probably. Won't taste these ones even though I do love this stuff though. I do no shame in that I have done for years excrement, feces Scott. poop. Call it what you will you're a wildlife guy. This stuff is a gold mine of information. There's even technical term for the study of it scatology and this forest that I'm in has more than just deer droppings. I'm finding evidence of all kinds of animals on the same trail where I find the milk duds I notice a pile of something a bit bigger this time from carnival. This is about as thick as my index finger and it is a coyote Scott. and. Then I discover something very special. Time believable. There's A. As scrape here. All the forest has been raked up. And until little pile a few inches high and there's a massive pile fresh Kuka Scott on top of it, and it's it's about what about an inch in diameter may be more engine quarter? Full of. And bones. And it's on this deer trail. where he would have probably been looking for dinner in the early days, Scott Science who is pretty basic in my work with Baz a pilot Pu could tell me an animal was there obviously, and sometimes the animal had eaten. I have entire photo albums of best cats and every picture tells a story of what went in the other end blueberries, salmon bones, clam shells, and once even a hotdog label. But these days there's a lot more to it the study of scout as become a whole science. This is some serious. Well. You get it. Today Ataman waste goes way beyond an interesting discovery on an afternoon hike or a few details about what animal was eaten. While biologists of come up with amazing ways to use Scott in their research and it's changing the way they do this work on the most beneficial aspects of working with noninvasive methods like Scott is that in fact, we are not capturing or directly harassing her handling or stressing the animals. Scott has the power to open doors of understanding, and let's just get a peek into the health and lives of wildlife. SCAT is the most accessible animal product in nature and because so many products in the body are eliminated through scat. It provides treasure trove of information about the animal's health. It's reproductive status on the other environmental pressures that is under and there's really nothing else like it. The really is nothing else like it today, we'll take a look at three different ways biologists a using Scott understand, and protect wildlife including poop parties a dog on a boat. An international crimefighter. W. IN SEATTLE I'm Chris Morgan welcome to the wild. This is fresh today or you really. For a first case study in Scout I present to you the water. There yesterday. Rummage. Very. fishy one two. I'm on the banks of the Duwamish River near Seattle with biologist Michelle Weinstein she's a field conservation associated with Woodland Park. Zoo. Michelle is brought me to this auto latrine site and I'm pretty excited. If you can see the APP at that all off as. Oh so it is it almost looks like grass is. Now. You know when you meet someone who has an interest in something quite unusual and you realize the same one you have instant soulmates. That's kind of how I feel right now being with Michelle. We're right next to you and asphalt trail and under a major flight path from Seattle Tacoma airport, which is only about five miles away. Michelle. Has Been Studying author Scott here for the past three years. The, Duwamish River starts in the pristine cascade mountains before emptying out into puget sound through the heart of the industrial district of Seattle. A lot of her work is in the less lovely section of the the river weaves through. Some real nastiness. In. Fact, the last five miles of this river is one of the most polluted rivers in the country. For over a century, the river has been polluted by stormwater waste and industry. In one of those industries Boeing manufactured the B Seventeen bomber here during World War Two heavy metals, cyanide, and other toxins from the manufacturing seeped into the groundwater. This section of the river has been categorized as superfund site by the federal government meaning the pollution is so bad. It will take decades to clean up. Something that started and has to be monitored. And believe it or not. That's where this pile of author Scott comes in. The shell cools these authors bio monitors. Monitor is basically a something like an organism that can monitor environmental health and conditions for us in a biological way. Michelle hoops to US auto scout to help monitor the level of contaminants in the Duwamish River. OTTERS are opportunistic eaters, daily fish crustaceans, birds, almost anything. They can easily get a hold off has an organism. We can use these otters to tell us a lot about what's happening in terms of contamination of the food web below it because we can measure what's going on in their bodies, and so it's telling us a lot about the ecosystem is monitoring it for us in A. Biological Way and in a biological context victory this way some chemical gets into the river those pollutants seep into the sediments at the bottom of the river. Then the particles make their way into the insects that live and feed in the mud that insect gets eaten by a fish. A nearby auto sees that tasty looking fish one game over for the fish but not for the contaminants. The authors alike a filter showing what's polluting the river and you get this magnificent factor that are the you are in the food chain. The more contaminants you have because you've absorbed everything that's been eaten below you. Most of this contaminant from all the food beneath exactly exactly the officers alike a walking pooping test kit. What goes in one end has to eventually come out the other contaminants included. Michelle's job is to look for those contaminants in the SCAT and conveniently groups authors will use the same location to do their business then known as latrine sites where otters gathered to socialize and while defecate. Michelle has about fifteen latrine sites she's been monitoring ranging from that very contaminated superfund site all the way up into habitat that we consider fairly clean and pristine. And At places in between. And there is kind of a ritual that goes on at these sites. It sounds quite comical actually. They do a little dance. So they lift their tail that pie and they usually tap you know step on their rear, feel like they're dancing and then they go live the sound of the. It's kind of cute if you're okay with the fact that they're proving. Michelle uses remote wildlife cameras at some of these latrine sites and seen as many as twenty autres using them at the same time. All around answering the cool of nature. She describes it as an auto poop party. How could you describe except for party? Michelle crouches down to collect sample from the shiny fresh off. Scott about ten feet from the river. She puts on some rubber gloves grabs a cotton swab from her sampling kit, which looks like a mini toolbox and then moves in. Like she's a surgeon and what I do is I take that's why and I just ran it over the exterior of post cats, and that's another reason why it's really important for it to be fresh because I'm trying to collect kind of that Mucus Leeann that's on the outside of the Scott that came from the intestine of that better. That's where most of the best samples can be found and not surprisingly the autism down in the superfund site show much higher levels of pollutants than the autism further up river. The cleanup will be slow, but the authors will be here to help monitor the trend probably going to be about a twenty year process, and so we thought it was a great time to get a real empirical Bayes fine for River Otters as apex predators, in the system. To know where they started in very polluted. Just as Michelle is talking something unexpected happens. Famous. To authors run along the bank on the other side of the river something she hardly ever sees. So insanely lucky. I'll just pooh-poohed excitement if they. was totally a show for you. The wild is a production of Tell Your W. In partnership with my work of the uproar. Opera juicer is not Martin. Jim Gates Zara editor op production team includes David Brown Juan Pablo Chiquita April Craig Dire Oxley Te'o Pesky Maria Powell Brendan Sweeney and gene Randall. Theme Music is by Michael, Parker? I'm your host. Chris Morgan. Thanks for listening.
NW Ports to phase out all maritime emissions by 2050
"The northwest's biggest ports promised to stop polluting. The air twenty nine years from now. Environmental activists say public health and the global. Climate cannot wait that long. Kyw's john ryan reports the ports of seattle vancouver and tacoma announced the shared target of no more diesel soot and no more greenhouse gases by the year twenty fifty the no pollution pledge applies to trucks and machinery at the ports and cargo ships while in local waters. We can't just wait till twenty-fifty. Eighty hampton is an activist with the duwamish river. Cleanup coalition people in the duwamish valley breath a lot of pollution from the port of seattle. These issues are very urgent. We believe that the overall strategy really needs to accelerate their timelines for deploying zero emission equipment. The three ports expect to come up with more specific plans this year. Global shipping giant. Maersk says it'll have carbon neutral ships by the end of this decade john ryan k. O w news.
The Power of Poop
"Oh you. Beauty Looking Act I'm out walking in the woods by my house in northern Washington state and I've just spotted one of my favorite things in the forest. Okay this is. Really special afresh deposit of SCAT. In this case did droppings. These ones are cute, little things. They look like a little pile of mini milk duds. I probably won't taste these ones, even though I do love this stuff though. I do no shame in that. I have done for years excrement feces Scott. POOP! Call it what you will when you're a wildlife guy. This stuff is a gold mine of information. There's even a technical term for the study often scatology. And forest that I'm in has more than just deer droppings. I'm finding evidence of all kinds of animals on the same trail where I find the milk duds I notice a pile of something bigger. This time from a carnivore. This is about as thick as my index finger, and it is a coyote scat. And then I discover something very special. That's unbelievable. There's A. As a scrape here. All the forest has been raked up. And until it will pile a few inches high, and there's a massive pile of fresh. Kuka Scott Roy on the top of it, and it's about what about an inch in diameter may be more engine a quarter. Full of for and bones, And it's right on this deer trail. He would have probably been looking for dinner in the early days. Scott signs who is pretty basic in my work. With Baz, a pilot Pu could tell me an animal. was there obviously and sometimes what the animal had eaten? I F entire photo albums of best cats and every picture tells a story of what went in the other end, blueberries, salmon bones clam shells, and once even a hotdog label. But these days there's a lot more to it. The study of Scott has become a whole science. This is some serious. Well you get it. Today Adam waste goes way beyond an interesting discovery on an afternoon hike or a few details about what animal was eaten. Wildlife Biologists have come up with amazing ways to use scat in their research, and it's changing the way they do this work. One of the most beneficial aspects of working with noninvasive methods like Scott is that in fact we are not capturing or directly harassing her handling or stressing the animals. Scott has the power to open doors of understanding, and let's just get a peek into the health and lives of wildlife. SCAT is the most accessible animal product in nature, and because so many products in the body are eliminated through GATT it provides this treasure trove of information about the animal's health. It's reproductive status on the other environmental pressures that is under, and there's really nothing else like it. The really is nothing else like it. Today we'll take a look at three different ways. Biologists a using Scott to understand and protect wildlife including poop parties a dog on a boat, an international crimefighter. From kyw in Seattle I'm Chris Morgan welcome to the wild. This is fresh today really. For a first case study Scott I present to you the utter. Yesterday. It's up of rummage. Yeah very away one to. I'm on the banks of the Duwamish River Nece- It'll with biologist Michelle Weinstein. She's a field conservation associate with Woodland Park Zoo Michelle is brought me to this auto latrine site and I'm pretty excited. You can see the APP and. All of owns. Oh, so it is it almost like grasses? SCHMO! You know when you meet someone who has an interest in something quite unusual, and you realize it's the same one you have instant success rate. That's kind of how I feel right now being with Michelle. We're right next to you. An asphalt trail an under a major flight path from Seattle Tacoma Airport, which is only about five miles away. Michelle has been studying to Scott here for the past three years. The. Duwamish River starts in the pristine cascade mountains before emptying out into puget sound through the heart of the industrial district of Seattle. A lot of her work is in the less lovely section of where the river weaves through some real nastiness. In fact, the last five miles of this river is one of the most polluted rivers in the country. For over a century, the river has been polluted by storm, water, waste and industry. In, one of those industries, Boeing manufactured the B Seventeen bomber here during World War, two heavy metals, cyanide, and other toxins from the manufacturing seeped into the groundwater. This section of the river has been categorized as a superfund site by the federal government. Meaning the pollution is so bad it will take decades to clean up. Something that started. It has to be monitored. And believe you don't know that's where this pile of artists Scott comes in. The shell cools these authors bio monitors so monitor is basically a something like an organism that can monitor environmental health and conditions for us in a biological way Michelle hoops to us to scout to help monitor the level of contaminants in the Duwamish River. OTTERS are opportunistic eaters. They'll eat fish crustaceans, birds almost anything they can easily get a hold off as an organism. We can use these otters to tell us a lot about what's happening in terms of contamination of the food web below it, because we can measure what's going on in their bodies, and so it's telling us a lot about the ecosystem. It's monitoring it for us. US In a biological way, and in a biological context victory this some chemical gets into the river. Those pollutants seep into the sediments at the bottom of the river. Then the particles make their way into the insects that live and feed the mud, that insect gets eaten by a fish, a nearby Odyssey's tasty, looking fish wam game over for the fish, but not for the contaminants. The otters alike filter showing what's polluting the river and you get this magnification. That the Friday you are in the food chain. The more contaminants you have because you've absorbed everything those spin eaten below you. and. Most of this contaminant from all the food beneath. Exactly the officers elect a walking pooping test kit. What goes in one end has to eventually come out. The other contaminants included. Michele's job is to look for those contaminants in the SCAT and conveniently groups of authors will use the same location to do their business then known as latrine sites where Otters Gavitt or something is and well defecate. Michelle has about fifteen latrine sites. She's been monitoring ranging from that very contaminated superfund site all the way up into habitat that we consider fairly clean and pristine. and. At places in between. And there is kind of a ritual that goes on these sites. It sounds quite comical, actually poop. They do a little dance, so they lift their. Taylor, Pie and they usually tell you step on their rear feel like they're dancing, and then they go live the sound at the time. And it's kind of cute if you're okay with the fact that they're moving. I am. Michelle uses remote wildlife cameras at some of these latrine sites, and a seen as many as twenty officers using them at the same time. All dancing around answering the cool of nature, she describes it as an Otter poop party. How could you describe except for apart party? Michelle crouches down to collect to sample from the shiny fresh off to Scott ten feet from the river. She puts on some rubber gloves grabs a cotton swab from her sampling kit, which looks like a mini toolbox and then moves in. Like a surgeon and what I do is i. take that Swab and I just rent it over the exterior of CO Scott and that's another reason why it's really important for it to be fresh because I'm trying to collect that Mucus Eli Aharon that's on the outside of the sky that came from the intestine of that matter, that's where most of the best samples can be found, and not surprisingly the autism down in the superfund site show much higher levels of pollutants than the autism further up river. The cleanup will be slow, but the authors will be here to help monitor. The trend has probably going to be about twenty year process. And so we thought it was a great time to get a real empirical baseline for River Otters as apex predators in the system. To know where they started in the very polluted. Just as Michelle to looking something unexpected happens. Famous come on. To authors run along the bank on the other side of the river something she hardly ever sees. So insanely lucky. I will just. Put excitement if they. If I was totally a show for you. It's not just pollutants that can be found in scat. DNA hides there to waiting to be revealed. And there's one man at the top of that Game Professors Sam Wasser when my parents were alive. Of course, they always used to brag about me, but then they get to the poop part and they go now. What are you doing again? Sam Wasser is the director of the Center for Conservation Biology of the University of Washington. His work began when he was doing his PhD on wild boons in Tanzania. At that time we were, we had habituated their boone's. We were walking with daily so when they pooped. You could just see that you're just right there. And we knew who had came from these droppings provided a lot of good information on the health of the Bobbins, a whole slew of things you know stress hormones, reproductive hormones, nutrition hormones, toxins all tied to genetics and. Food availability what they're eating and all of that you can get from scat now and being able to do that over these large scales when you're trying to look at the impacts of humans on wildlife. Is really a powerful powerful tool. Well working with the boons sandwich, the elephants in the field, and made him wonder what if he could apply these boone Scott methods to understanding the health of African elephants, and maybe even help them, but there you have a challenge because if you don't see the Animal Poop, then you don't know who it came from, and I realize that if we could get DNA out of the samples that would change everything, so sam did just that in one, thousand, nine, hundred seven. He was on the forefront of something that was to shake up. What was possible with Scott Science. A new method to extract DNA from Scott. All the cells in the body have the same DNA, and because the cells in the intestines are largely having to replenish themselves, because you're working so hard to digest food that means that we have a huge numbers of cells with DNA in fecal samples about ten million cells per gram. This was a game changer. Now scientists could identify and monitor not just species, but individual animals just by analyzing their waste. Sam was going to get his chance to study elephant POOP. He just had to find some. Known exactly difficult when it comes to elephants. poop sample may weigh as much as twenty five pounds on so easy to find salmon. His colleagues set about partnering with other universities and local governments and wildlife ranges in Africa to help collect Elephant Dung and so we gradually built support, and we collected samples across the entire continent, of Africa which was no small challenge given that you can put five. United States in Africa. They now have over three thousand poop samples from Savanna, elephants and forest elephants, and we realized that we could map the whole continent of Africa Sam's referring to a DNA map, a DNA map of the elephants in Africa from it he can identify individual animals in a family and knows which region that elephant lives in. This is where some water turns from university biology professor to Indiana Jones like international crimefighter up. Well actually right now. I kind of worked for us, Homeland Security Investigations. We'll get into that right after the break. Ivory Tusks worth millions on the illegal wildlife mock it and some has joined forces with law enforcement teams to track down the elephant killers. Coaches! In hundred ninety nine, the population of African elephants was estimated at one point three million right now. It's estimated that there are four hundred thousand African elephants remaining in Africa and they are killing forty thousand elephants a year for. These. Killings are an existential threat to the species. Some is helping to catch poachers by using his DNA map of the elephant population when a shipment of ivory is seized, the DNA from the ivory can be matched against Sam's map. A documentary film called last animals followed Sam on this work. Once seen show some processing shipment of ivory found in Singapore. Work, as a dumping big buckets, full of elephant tusks onto the ground and a large parking. The ivory tusks aligned up next to each other row after row. There are thousands of them. Some kneels down and picks up one of the smaller tasks. This whole. Ways point one kilo. Why would you kill an elephant for a tenth of Akilah Tusks? Look through there. Are No Iran here. This is ridiculous. Some estimates the could be the tusks of ten thousand elephants in this parking lot. including the tusks of very young elephants. The hardest part for me honestly. See All these little guys. Here. Here. Here. Of elephant tusks like this, he's confiscated. Sam takes samples so that he can extract DNA from the ivory. Then he matches it against his Scott DNA population map and that way he can identify where the elephant was poached. We can get within one hundred and eighty miles of where the elephant actually came from. One hundred ninety miles might seem like a lot, but when you consider the size of Africa. That's pretty high precision, so we can tell the species we can tell if it's forced or Savanna elephants, and then you can tell what protected area. It actually came from officials can then trace back from the port like the shipment confiscated in Singapore to where the shipment came from in Africa looks like a lot of these were bag in Mombasa. See here Mumbuza Kenya. there's another. Knowing the origins of the poached animals helps investigators narrow down to the potential smugglers. And before we knew it, we were able to pull out the three biggest ivory cartels operating exporting ivory out of Africa. We've been doing this since two thousand and four and we've analyzed seventy large ivory seizures that way anywhere from a half, a tonne to to nine tons of ivory, single shipments, and we found that the vast majority, virtually one hundred percent of the ivory was coming from just two places in Africa and the danger is very real. People trying to stop the trade in Africa like the Rangers are often killed on the front line. In the last ten years alone around a thousand of them have lost their lives. I got to ask you. Do you feel safe doing this work. You know for the most part. Yes, but sometimes I get nervous. I don't worry about myself here in the United States when I'm traveling abroad. I do depending on the country I'm in I am a bit more concerned. The day I spoke with them. He had just received. The latest seized shipment for DNA processing. It's the largest shipment some has ever received. It was nine tonnes of ivory, so it's a very very important shipment, and it is connected to a number of other seizures that have been made that we've already investigated so this one. We expect to really pro match a huge number of other seizures and really really come at a much larger criminal network that we have been tracking for. The past few years now and hopefully are going to bring down very soon. Unto think all this work is possible. Because of the DNA Information Sam was able to unlock in Elephant Don. Like? She looked differently at a pile of Poop, doesn't it? We turn to orcas killer whales, the emblem of the Pacific northwest in the waters of Washington State and British Columbia. But the population of this emblem is crushing. They're going to be gone before long. They're only seventy. Two resident killer. Whales left southern resident killer. Whales left in Washington State but SAM's team in the sound one islands is hoping the killer whales scat will hold the answer to saving these whales, and they found a pretty novel way of finding it. And you might be thinking because I know I walls. How do you find poop in the see? The, solution is a highly sensitive nose. That's the sound of e birth Awale Dog, and so the question is. How did the dog do it? Does it jump in the water? No Orchestra actually floats right of the surface of the water for about thirty minutes. So if the killer whales are in the area, the team has to act quickly. Today's the eighth of May and where just outside of Snug Harbor, getting ready to do a vocal follow on a group of transitions. Family called the T. One one. This is Deborah Giles. She's a PhD research who works with Sam on the orchestra projects and she's. Proud handling. Either here on the bow. We're just coming in to get into physician here and operate the vessel down wind and several hundred meters away from the back into these walls, and hopefully they'll leave us a sample, so our dog is riding on the foul of the both, and it might be laying down asleep, and you can kind of see one nostril kind of Goop, flaring and the other one flaring alternately. He hits that facing into the wind and hasn't smelled an equal sample yet, but as soon as you hit the sent cone that is emanating off of that scat sample. The dog is up in way over the bow for look very came to behavior, and as soon as he that will turn into the wind. The dog jumps to action runs up to the bow knows in the end. Points in the direction of the floating scat. The captain swings the wheel to the target. Cruises up alongside and a researcher is ready with a cop on the end of a long pole, and essentially you just go to the Scott, you put it slightly under the water. Just like to do with a cup when you're playing in the TUB is a little kid, and you put it under the water, and the water rushes in you. Get it right in front of the sample. You get it under the water. You know just a little bit and the water just floods with the pook, and all the dog asks for in return as a reward for a job well done. A bit of full-time. And Eba really loved fulltime. Are! Interestingly, the COVID nineteen pandemic is opened up a rare opportunity for Giles and EBA noise from vessel traffic can cause stress for the whales, but recreational boating is way down because of the corona virus, so giles wants to look if the level of stress hormones in poop Loa during this stay at home period, but boat noise isn't the only reason this population is under stress, and on the verge of extinction loss of prey. Salmon is a big one and also toxins in the water. And so with the killer whale when you have all those pressures that are impacting them. How do you partition them to figure out? which pressure do you need to address I? When you're trying to deal with this urgent conservation problem? It's a common dilemma in conservation. Where do you? When a species faces several lay it threats. The SAM team. The answer was clear. You start with the POOP. In addition to toxins DNA, the ORCA scout also reveals information about diet and nutrition levels. You can see how they are. They're trending over time and declining, and then we measure nutritional hormones in those samples, so we can see. Whether the animals are starving or not aside from the obvious problems with starvation from lack of salmon, one of the biggest impacts to the health of the part is on reproduction. There have been consistently about thirty female whales in the population. They give birth about every five years or so so the should have about six berths in each year for the whole population. But since two thousand ten, they've only been having one or two births, and in some years. The POD has had non a tool. We've been able to show that. The whales are conceiving. But they are aborting sixty nine percent of their conceptions, and we're showing this from poop die. Measuring reproductive hormones in the poop can rely the show that the female is pregnant, and then because they are photo idead and monitored daily. We can show that they did not end up giving a birth salmon. The team have been able to show that it's the lack of nutrition that he's causing many of the female or to miscarry. We also been able to compare the nutritional health, a females at the same stage of station who took went to turn versus a board, and you can show the ones that aboard had much poor nutritional health than the ones that successfully went to term. Poor nutrition has more side effects than just low reproduction rates. It can actually caused the whales to be exposed to higher levels of pollutants. Whales bioaccumulative toxins in their fat throughout their lives. These are what we call Lippo Philip Toxins. They love fat, so they're absorbed in bio-accumulating the fat throughout their life to huge levels, and when it's sequestered in the fat, it doesn't do so much harm to the animal, but when they starve, they metabolize fat, and they dump that into circulation, and that cumulative effect is what we believe is leading to the abortion. It's a cruel double-punch. Starvation leads to talk since being released from their own fat, which just makes the whales, even more sick. It's hard to stay optimistic when it seems like such a bleak prognosis for the ORCA, but some says that they're scat will give us the answer on how best to help them. Both traffic is a problem toxins problem, but if you can keep the fish levels high. Then the impacts of the boats will be markedly reduced, and you will keep the toxins sequestered in the fat, and so the animals will do a lot better, so we've been able to prioritize from the poop. Fish. In other words for the ORCAS, it all comes down to food. The salmon are the ultimate key to the ORCAS survival. Save the Salmon. Save the killer whale? Salmon is team work on some of the most charismatic animals on Earth. The work is rewarding and he stays optimistic, but there's a lot of pressure to. I won't lie that this work is very stressful, but what feels me is that I really believe that we are having tremendous impact on all kinds of of ways and. It just keeps me going because. We've developed tools that are so incredibly powerful, and the more we apply them, and the more people embrace what we're doing, and the more compact that we start to have the more drives me to. Continue forward. For me. Some is only helped my own fascination with Scott grow even deeper. As a lot to this stuff, it's a topic we can laugh about. That's just human nature, but it's also cutting edge science. Science that is helping in so many ways helping not just the species we share the planet with, but our own needs to. As we learn about the ecosystems, every one of US relies on. All starting with a bit of poop in a test tube. We've got some great photos and videos of Ebay the whale dog on instagram. You can check them out at the wild, pot. I WANNA give a special. Thanks to Kate Brooks for letting. US use clips from her documentary the last animals. There's a link in the show notes if you'd like to watch the film. I'd also like to remember the thousands of ranges across Africa given their lives protecting the animals they love. The Wild is inspired not just by nature, but by people who work in it love it. Protected. We have more information on our website. The wild part dot Org. The wild is a production of kyw in Seattle in partnership with my work, the uproar phone. Up Producer is Matt Martin Jim Gates are editor op production team includes David Brown, one Pablo Chiquita April Craig Dire Oxley Te'o Pesky Mariah Powell Brennan, Sweeney and Jeannie Andel. A theme music is by Michael Parker I'm your host Chris more than? Thanks for listening.
Salmon and the city
"As much of the world continues to stay inside practicing social distancing vibrant cities have gone quiet and giving us a glimpse of what the world might be like without us in it. Jeffrey brown remember back to march twenty twenty reports of nature coming back into our cities during lockdown wildlife filling. The empty space humans left behind in southern india are heard of its took over. A road usually filled with traffic montes in thailand fighting over food in the streets not were set your barcelona. Spain wild-boar descended from the hills and grazed in pitches that. Divide the boulevards and a group of mountain goats. The took over a small town in wales residents said than you neighbors with reaching leaves and bush is in the town square right here at home in the pacific northwest. i notice. Birds seem to be singing more loudly. Maybe i can just hear them now. Look down was a hard time for all of us but seen all these reports gave me just a little bit of joy it confirmed to me. Something along believed that if we just give nature half a chance it'll come back with your life is resilient. I think that this last year has proven that. But what would happen if we didn't just get out of the way. What if we actively wildlife thrive in cities all the time in this episode. We'll look at what one city is. Dumb how they redesigned their built environment to benefit humans and and how it was all made possible by the force of a destructive earthquake from kyw in seattle. I'm chris morgan. Welcome to the wild Hey guys hope you're enjoying the wild. I have another point. You might enjoy overheard. A national geographic is a show that takes you to the edges of our big career beautiful world in the latest episodes. You'll swim with killer. Whales to observe surprising cultures. See how computer. Scientists programming machines to recognize human diversity and visit net. Jio's tekla where engineers have built super cameras to dive with legends. Like jack cousteau. Listen to over heard. A national geographic. Wherever you like to listen check check check. Check all right. I'm just going to connect with the producer of the wild. Here matt martin. He's down in seattle and he's been looking into something pretty interesting all right calling now. Hello hey areas. How's it going get as a gun chris. It's good. I'm looking forward to. This is the first time we've done it this way right. This is my. This is my first time actually in a real recording studio in over a year. Whoa that's crazy. So has it feel Remind myself all the buttons do. But i think i think i figured it. I think myself here at home is a lot easier. Got one button to press. And that's it so hopefully we're good podcast professionals So okay i know you could really interesting story to share with us. But before you dive in you telling me about all wildlife encounter. You had not long ago. Yeah you know so. We've been thinking about wildlife especially during this time of lockdown and a year ago. When we started working from home i started making this like three mile loop walk every morning. It was my covert walk. Just go and walk around the neighborhood. And i kept on seeing coyotes. I saw multiple coyotes every morning. And there's one morning. I was going on the walk in the mailman. Like flag me down and brought me over news like be careful. He's like. I just saw coyote around the corner and i got like super excited. I was like coyote awesome. And i i. I think the mailman was surprised. Because he seemed really concerned. And i was just. He was surprised that you are excited. I was like awesome. Only check from the wild. That's why i'm excited a what happened. I went around the corner and the coyote was having a squirrel for breakfast and Is a great way to start off my day. A maceio sort of went about his business really just looked at me and then just went back to having breakfast. Didn't even care that i was there. Have you seen that before in seattle. Like near where you live. I've seen three coyotes so far just in this last year of going on those walks. That's pretty amazing. i love it. You know how we kind of among nature in it. It's in among us even in big cities like seattle and kind of elite into what you're going to tell us about today right. Yeah so we're going to do things a little bit different. I'm going to be sharing a story today. And it's about how we can use our built environments to help the wildlife that lives among us every day awesome. I love it. Take it away. So i i wanted to learn a bit more about the relationship between our built environments and nature. So i called up conor o'shea he's an assistant professor of landscape architecture at the university of illinois at urbana-champaign i don't think of nature is something that happens out there. In the preserves in these wilderness areas. I think of the city and nature actually is a matrix that sort of one into same connor things a lot about how we could better incorporate wildlife into our cities. He told me this is something that we've never really done before. Healthy ecosystems weren't really top of mind during the industrial revolution and the birth of the modern city. You have jobs in factories in close proximity to each other. So cities are compact. but they're also heavily polluted. These new cities were efficient. Streamlined and limitless. There was this idea that we could design our way out of nature that we were something different. I say in that era. there's also there's no sense it. That cities were being designed for wildlife. We could sort of drink from the well of nature and it would never go dry. I think that's in this or rapid expansion of cities post post war in the postwar era. There is a sense that maybe we weren't really doing harm. And then and then we begin to realize that there were limits to the expansion. But here's the problem. Our cities are built this point. We can't just bowl. Those the length of manhattan and rebuild it in a way that benefits wildlife but perhaps we could find different ways or opportunities to make changes and therefore with that mindset. We need to retro fit our cities. There's a perfect example of how we can retrofit our cities right here in seattle where i live and it all started with an act of god to seattle. We going on towers tower. Dan twenty years ago. Seattle was hit with a six point. Eight magnitude earth known as the nisqually earthquake in less than one minute. It did at least two billion dollars worth of damage but this earthquake would open up a surprising opportunity to do something good for one of the pacific northwest. Most important creatures. On a recent sunday morning. I went down to the waterfront to meet up with someone who could tell me all about it. Third birthday of during this appointing one thousand nine hundred they might. Excitement is going to cancel the freezing water bath. My thought this jason toft. He's a research scientist at the university of washington. He's getting ready to do some snorkel surveys just off downtown seattle. The survey is to count the number of juvenile salmon on their out migration to the ocean. Temperature waters Now we're not scientists that will take a measurement here My guess is eight degrees in the measurement that no use for that would be like. The skyline of seattle is towering over and traffic buzzes by not the typical place. You'd find a wildlife researcher. i'm really an urban ecologist. And so seattle's in this unique location downtown seattle. It built on. Fill this always to be tied plants. I'm meeting jason at the base of the seattle seawall. It's a seven thousand foot long concrete wall that creates seattle's downtown waterfront for those of you. Unfamiliar with the layout of seattle. The city was built right on the edge of puget sound an inlet of the pacific ocean. There's also the duwamish river that cuts through the heart of the industrial part of the city. You know you see harbour island right. Now we're those cranes are and so that's where they want. River actually flows into town is an important river for salmon migration whenever a pretty big river flows into puget. Sound you have this kind of interconnected mudflats tide flats and smaller and channels feeding in. Just imagine kelp beds and you'll grass the type of near-shore ecosystems that are crucial foraging habitats for juvenile salmon. The fish likes to stick close to the shoreline on their journey out to the ocean. It provides food and protection from predators but now things look quite different as the frontier city of seattle started to grow and needed to protect buildings on the waterfront and create a deep water port so they started construction giant concrete wall and you have interest infrastructure built close to shore for obvious reasons. Right you have a lot of shipping and industry and you know over time that just gets built up. The original seawall was completed in nineteen four and now ex kind of like an underwater castle fortress for the city seattle being built in the seawall Being here it's really changed the shoreline In a drastic way. This is judy lafuente. She's a research assistant. Who works with jason that has impacted fish especially juvenile salmon To the point where. This isn't what they're normal. They're used to goodbye. Tide flats hello space needle without the seawall. The downtown seattle as we know it wouldn't exist. It is protecting seattle from high tides from storms. You know it's it's there for a reason. Seattle is known for its famous. Pike place market where fishmongers throw the day's catch around to impress the tourist and that huge fares wheel right on the water. All of those things are built on piers off the seawall. So if you've been there then you walked on top of the seawall. It may not seem like it. But there's actually wildlife right under your feet downtown. Seattle between april and june. Take a look Down below and see if you might. You might see a school salmon. You know this wall is kind of a double edged sword. It provides families on vacation the opportunity to see wildlife right in the city but also is a major roadblock to that wildlife see wells are necessary for their infrastructure but they also caused a lot of ecological impacts to the environment. All of these changes have meant the loss of that near shore habitat that the baby. Sam need the peers. The ones holding up all those restaurants and tourist shops they create these shadowy areas on the water which changes how the fish move through the section. And it's really dark down there. It's pretty scary even for human. Who is a lot bigger than a fish and You know they're they need light in order to see their prey so they tend to avoid. I'm going into dark scary places as any Animal might and since they don't like to go into those shadows under the pier. Often the fish swim around them which is a lot more energy intensive and leaves them more vulnerable to predators so the salmon had all of those things working against them until ten fifty four. Am on february twenty eighth two thousand and one the nisqually earthquake. The quake destroyed a section of the seawall. It would need to be rebuilt engineers design experts and scientists. Also this as an opportunity to echo engineer a better path for juvenile salmon but for a big city like seattle where he can technically restore habitat. You're not going to recreate these tight. Floods right here Again the ecological engineering is recognizing that in trying to improve ways they can or or concrete and to see well built peers and and recognize that you could still do a little bit of good in the servants system. So construction began on the new section of the wall in two thousand thirteen one. That could hopefully improve the ability of the fish to migrate safely through this highly developed ecosystem out to the ocean. This new design differs from the original wall and some subtle but very important ways. The actual surface of the wall is different. Instead of just smooth concrete wall in the water they built the wall with textures. You know bumps and grooves. It looks a bit like a climbing wall that you might find an jim. In that provides a place for algae and other invertebrates to grow a main source of food for the fish and then there's also the shelf that sticks out from the wall several feet below the water it kind of creates a fake seafloor. We know that many juvenile salmon or looking for shallow water beaches really close to shore in this case. Where you don't have that. It's trying to mimic that shallow water. Another change that was made where these tiles on the sidewalk. Remember how the fish were scared to go into the shadowy section under the peers. The installed these glass blocks about the size and shape of an old vhs cassette the embedded them right into the sidewalk that hangs out over the water before The habitat improvements. We actually didn't see as many salmon underneath appears than we do now. Jason and his team have observed more feeding behavior from the salmon when the fish are swimming under the glass blocks and the idea to really have the opportunity to build something that could co exist in meet the needs of the city of seattle and the the salmon that out-migration out of the duwamish. These all seem like small changes but as a whole they really have potential to change how these fish move through the city. The construction on the wall was completed in two thousand seventeen. If you build it will they come. Is a great way to summarize this. And that's what this team is trying to figure out. Jason is hoping that by serving fish behavior. He can see if this new section of the wall is actually working snorkeling. We can see if they're feeding or not which is really cool to begin can not only where they are. But what they're doing and also suited up jason slips into the water. The water feel about the bad yet. I've put my head on her but flippers off under the pier. The you know the city noise kinda tunes itself out. And you're really there with your clipboard. Listening to your breathing looking around for fish you know and the visibility might not be that great and you might be kind of skirting around but it's it's really magical to see a school of fish swim by you And for you to be in that head space. Is this something totally different than than be downtown seattle for your daily commute. It's still too early to tell exactly how effective this redesigned wall has been at helping fish. The researchers weren't able to do any surveys at all last year because of covid and they're just starting again right now but the surveys they did twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen show that the juvenile salmon are using the habitat close to shore more than they used to and that they're seeing more feeding behavior. This change in behavior should make their journey easier which will help more of them survive. What seattle is doing in terms of the habitat. Modifications for seawalls is is something that hasn't really been done before and i think it can be used as a model an example for for Coastal cities all over the world Who who want to find that balance between the urban environment and you know and marine environment and in their location. I don't know if you can say that. Seattle was lucky for the opportunity to build the fish friendly wall. I mean it did take a destructive natural disaster to get there but it does show what is possible if people really care enough about helping the wildlife among us story much shed might seem really focused and specific to seattle but for me it represents something quite special like the potential for a new approach to the things that we do as humans anywhere in the world and you approach that includes wildlife make space and habitat for wildlife the whole cove experience with wildlife returning to unexpected places is an amazing reminder that just giving nature a chance often works and we can be a part of giving nature that chance wherever we live planting native plants putting up a nest box letting you lone goal. How did that this spring. And it's getting wild. Funds have popped up and flowers that the insects love. It's very cool to watch nature take back control and it's all about us letting her the wild is inspired not just by nature but by people who work in it velvet protect you can learn more at the wild. Don't be sure to check out our instagram account at the wild. And you can find me at chris. Morgan wildlife very. Thank you for that kind. Financial support jill scott walker. Rose letwin allyn ferguson. Ana kimball john taylor. Marc and rebecca wilkins. Bob yellow lease and paul list of the wild is a production of kyw in seattle and me. Chris malkin with support from wildlife media. Producer is matt martin. Jim gates is on editor and our production team includes david brown pun public. Kiza april cray conor mcdermott. Te'o peskov dossey riggan schmidt and brendan sweeney. A theme music is by michael parker. I'm your host chris morgan. Thanks so much for listening. And if you enjoy the wild please do ask your friends to follow our podcast and maybe even give us a review. Thanks so much and take good care.
The history of Boeing and the future of passenger flight
"The science show on our end where we say farewell to the giant of the sky's the 747 and meet Michael Body the Boeing historian, but this is how it all began. On the seventeenth of December nineteen, zero, three in North Carolina. I new era in aviation began thanks to the flight of the Wright brothers, followers of all the achievements of the German Lilienthal who they considered to be the best designer and flight pilot of motorists machines. They constructed by plane which they named Flyer. It was equipped with a twelve horsepower four cylinder engine to drive two propellers, which spun on opposing directions. The. Honor of carrying out the flight was given to Wilbur Wright. Who won the toss of a coin? They turned on the engine, and the machines started to move slowly gaining speed until it managed to stabilize and take off for a short journey. Wilbur! Wright's flights only reached forty meters and lasted twelve seconds. Throughout that day Wilbur and his brother Orville carried out several flights until they achieved the length of two hundred and fifty meters in fifty nine. So. Mike where we standing. We are in the red. Barn. This is the building where Bill Boeing started the Boeing Company back in Nineteen Sixteen Nineteen sixteen. Wow, yeah, it's well one hundred and four years on now, so we passed our centennary this beautiful building, this part of the Museum of Flight Wonderful Museum just a few miles out of Seattle right an ongoing field so very historic. This airport was named after bill boy that was in one, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty, seven, twenty eight, and put Seattle on the map. Who was he? Was the son of German immigrants, his father had come to America like many immigrants to make a life. He settled in Detroit where he had timber and mining, and did quite well, but at a young age for Bill Boeing. His father passed on and Bill went to school and studied at Yale and didn't get on with his stepfather very well and decided to make his. His own way, so he came out to Washington to Seattle to invest in timber something he knew about from his father, but Timberland here and became a very wealthy young man. He was a bit of a renaissance man to he loves science technology boats cars was very interested in business, and in nineteen ten at an air show in Los, Angeles. He saw his first airplane. And Immediately He was just captivated. It became an obsession. He wanted to get a ride on an airplane at this air show. For four days, I was just a huge event. Dirigibles and you think of these by planes. Barn stormers and one of them was a fellow by the name of prolong was a French aviator very famous at the time and Bill Boeing went Tim's. Had you know like to get? A ride was able to speak to in French, and he said Hey. Mr Boeing not today, not today. I gotTA do some other flights, but come back tomorrow. And I said this. This event went on for four days Mr. Bowen came back and came back and finally. That fourth day Mr Pallone wasn't there. He was gone. He had been sued by the Wright brothers, so he had fled. So Mr going never got his ride in. It actually took him another about five years to get an airplane ride. And when he finally bought an airplane from Glenn Martin, famous pioneer of US aviation took it out for a flight didn't think it was that good of an airplane. and his response with his friend Conrad Westervelt Officer. Who in aviation fellow enthusiasts? They decided they could build a better. The Flyer of the Wright brothers was made for an ash tree, would and some parts of iron. Its wings covered with Muslin Fabric and bound together by iron filaments. The steering was managed by balancing the body of the pilot from side to side. This airplane symbolized a huge change in the history of aviation, as it's designed, comprised the necessary aerodynamic characteristics for flight. From this point onwards, numerous technical developments and engineering feats followed. It was a watershed in the history of aviation. Here we are say this amazing Lee. Huge area like a big hole made a wonderful would, and there's a model brought across two models in fact, looking at lathes. And what are they manufacturing here? They obviously is right now. This building was actually part of a shipyard. They made boats in here. Gentleman by the name of Heath who was shift right and Mr. Boeing had hired him to build his yacht now Mr Heath was a wonderful shipbuilder, but an awful business person, and so Mr Boeing it to help to get the business going in his yacht built. Offered to help out Mr Heath with his debts, and in return he would get this building. At one point, there's a floor above US quite high. Maybe twenty feet, and that was open, so there would they would build the boats right in here so in Mr Boeing took it over when he started the company in Nineteen Sixteen, they added the upper floor where they made wings. Of course is all woodworking. Say That outside in the main part of the whole? He's just huge in this museum. You've got so many aircraft. You've got to walk about forty going right back to. To the beginning, fuckers whatever yeah, there's a replica of the Wright Flyer so yeah, and even before that was some of the early gliders they did. This museum was started actually my predecessor, the former historian at Boeing Ken. Bill Boeing. Junior Mister Boeing son got together to move this building so this where we're at right now. This building was actually several miles up. There's a river right here. The duwamish river in this used to sit there because like I said it was a shipyard. And so they moved it here and around it they built a museum, and this was done by Boeing employees and Boeing leaders. As a home for all of the wonderful achievements that Boeing employees have -CCOMPLISH over one hundred years now my last time I was here sector sitting at Boeing at one of the places where they manufacturer. Many planes and I was in the dreamliner and twenty years later, having sat there and looked at the innovations mainly of the cabin. Actually 'cause. That's where I sit next to a Muslim sit. Twenty years later. There's a plane flying. It takes that long to make new plane right. Airplanes are very complex, and the market is very complex work that goes into developing a new commercial airplane. It's quite incredible and one of the interesting things is if we look at one of the famous ones is the seven forty seven. And how that airplane came to be all the different ideas which should be a double decker? Still when I'm standing on the tarmac, and I'm looking up simple seven. That count fly its beak. Unbelievable and that it's absolutely what they said at the time when Boeing was building airplane, and even as it's rolling down the runway, there were people at that point like no, it's not gonNA. And so and that's one of the wonderful parts of our business that so much of our history is doing things that people think are impossible. Really, that's what I think defines Boeing best is that we do those things that other people think are either too hard or downright impossible, and that's what we do. Yeah, and was it the simple some the other day that broke the record going. Going transportation wasn't that. Yeah, that was wonderful. Yeah, it's amazing things you can do with a tailwind right and think it was two hundred miles an hour, and interestingly the seven forty seven is such a large airplane. It is actually the fastest of the commercial jet subsonic jet purposely built for speed with considerable sweep to the wings and such things that you'd see in a fighter, Jim. So it is very fast, the incredible thing is I was reading this the other day in the Scientific American? I think it was the February edition of Sunday. American the physicists still say there is no complete theory of how planes fly well, it's probably have to ask some of our arodynamicists. I know they're pretty sure. They know what they're doing, but. But they're you know that's the interesting thing about this business. As you know being somebody who's very interested in science that especially with technology, there's always unknowns, and that's what makes us interesting and challenging working in a technology business, and you see that throughout the history of aviation that those are known. Sometimes they bite you about overcoming those is been a big part of it, and I think we've done a pretty amazing. Amazing job of overcoming a Lotta that quick personal question before I. Ask you about the future, and that is due flying yourself apart from being a passenger while I have flown, saplings have been able to fly, because pretty bad eyesight, but I got that fixed recently, and that's the first thing my son said so you're gonNA. Go Out and get your pilot's license. I, said well. You know me very well, so. It's still a possibility. Nineteen ten was the year of aviation competitions on over the world together with great feats, such as those achieved by the Peruvian Chavis who flew over the Alps or the involvement of women in the challenges of Aviation Opin. Amazed by the Frenchwoman Raymonde Delaroche the first female in history to get a pilot license. This year the first attempts of developing jet propulsion started. Hall Recall Wanda built a jet engine which became the forerunner of the use of jets to create the power of thrust. Furthermore the first endeavors began to transport passengers by Zeppelin in Germany and by airplane in France. The Young William Boeing trying to make himself a name in Los Angeles, while the French pilot Paulhan performed flights for army officers invited by. Companies who tried to convince them of the great possibilities, airplanes had as a weapon of attack and defense. Well here we saw. Two Thousand Eight hundred three seventy corners. And virtually the hundredth anniversary of commercial flight, because I think that was around October, one, thousand, nine, hundred nineteen. And there are three main companies who have done that. They vie for the position of number one turn. Qantas's the long continuing one because k. l. m.. Stop during the Second World War, but anyway hundred years, and we know what happens. We've got these great big jets, and we all queue up and we sit there for a long time. How is it going to change in the future? Do you think what sort of imagination Boeing and elsewhere talking about why I think you've seen some of the changes recently? We've really focused on that passenger experience, and as you say, you've been in the dreamliner, the research that our team has done on what it is to sit in that seat for all those hours and receive sitting in that cabin I. It's just amazing. The result of that were the bigger windows and having the blue lights in the ceiling, giving them more of that feeling of openness, so there's some of the new technology and composite and other stronger structures have been able to put more atmosphere into the airplane. So you have a more comfortable flight, even getting some moisture in there. I don't feel so dry, so there's that focus on passenger experience now as far as getting to our destination quicker, which is probably the next important question, one of the other things that the. The dreamliner. Did I think unless you're really an aviation enthusiast? You might have missed this. One of the great benefits that airplane has given to the world is point to point travel with the one thing that I think that really is hard for a lot of travel. Is You fly to one airport and you're not done. You WanNa be done, but you're. You're still miles and miles from home. You have to get on another airplane and get to your destination, so the hub and spoke and the seven eight seven challenged that whole structure to the aviation industry that. With the economy, the efficiency of that airplane raval to fly directly to our destination anywhere in the world. So that was one of the other great advances. People might not even recognize that, but it's made flying a lot easier for many of us, but it can future when we talk about I think the question is speed, and we've looked at that in the past with the sonic cruiser that would fly near the speed of sound, mock one and get us to our destination, maybe fifteen twenty percent quicker back to the concord radio. That supersonic has always been that dream. That's just been on the edge. It's still really not economical. Still, burn too much fuel, and that's just physics so. Where we're looking in. Here's what you might see as well. We'll just skip a step. Go Past, supersonic run into hypersonic. So at five times, the speed of sound or faster along with these recent advances of traveling into orbit commercial space. I think we'll see. The next grade. Advance of air travel will be traveling at those speeds of flying out of the atmosphere coming back down from Australia you fly to anywhere in the world, and just a couple of hours rather than many many hours. As long as they. Get to the airport the other end. They don't make you go around. The other day when I go to Sydney. Okay, we were ahead of time and yes, traffic control, and so we did two circuits and I said to the steward I say. Could you just check with the captain? How much that cost? Any. At three to four grand, yeah, just for fifteen minutes going around well in wasted fuel well I. Think I've been on a couple of flights for. The plane taxied longer than it actually flew so. Those things happen, but I think what's amazing. You look at it and this is just thinking about. Tell you recently over the holidays here that millions and millions of people flew in here in the Northern Hemisphere Rain, wind, cold ice snow, the whole bit darkness, not a single problem. Millions and millions and thousands of flights are going in and everybody got to destinations no issues. That may I. say the cost in fuel because here we are. The fuel is becoming more and more expensive. The climate change problems more more obvious. And there are experiments being done looking at Electric Planes Ryan, and even Sola driven plans which have flown. Yeah, and I think that's another great point that we'll see in the future of Boeing has been working on this for decades, and we've really been a leader in addressing those issues you think back to to nineteen seventy th first day, and really this the start the consciousness of taking care of mother Earth since that time Boeing has been working on building our planes that are green, starting with the some five seven and the seven six seven with the high bypass engines, and being designed for efficiency for saving fuel, and we've continued that recently. We've were doing a lot of. Of pioneering work with new fuels, biofuels, and you've seen a lot of airlines testing those out, but we've done allowed that work we have a program called the ECO demonstrator. We take a one of our commercial airplanes and put all sorts of experiments in it that will help find new ways to make airplanes even more efficient, even more green, but I think. If you really look at it, you'll see that this is one industry. It's far ahead of any other in really taking on that challenge to make our products green. How many staff people in Seattle have you got working for Boeing? Let's see here in Seattle. What do we have about forty forty thousand people I believe. Counted recently. I lost count the other day. Seattle is the home for our commercial airplane organization, and it's historically the home for the Boeing Company we also have a considerable amount of people spread across the country, working in our defense and space sites in Saint Louis, and down the southeast of the country hunts signs the other day doing experiment right well, and this is one of the really fascinating areas that we're working on our legacy of Boeing you know. Know we're in the midst of the fiftieth anniversary of Apollo and we look back at Apollo, the Boeing and the companies that have joined us. Our heritage companies McDonnell Douglas. North American. That was the team that went to the moon. We all team together back in nineteen sixties built that Saturn Apollo spacecraft, and since then every spacecraft that's carried NASA astronauts, every US built spacecraft except for the Lunar Lander landed on. On the moon everything from the x fifteen to the International Space Station and the space shuttle are all part of Boeing heritage, so we really have the only legacy of that, and so we're continuing now with the star liner and opening up this whole new era for humanity of of space travel just the same way. The airlines started like say hundred years ago while we're seeing that again today with opening travel. Travel to orbit and I think you're going to see in the future. That's going to grow rather quickly. When do you think we will have an electric plane? We're working on that now and I think there was some news just the other day and we have a partnership with the team new. Zealand and aircraft called the Kora which is an vitale. One of these air taxi personal vehicle, so he tested that. So this is something that it's coming fast or not. It's coming fair and because there's a silent aircraft being worked on in Cambridge for. Twenty three years. Which you wait and you wait wait. Yeah, well. There's a lot of challenges to making electronic vehicles and I. Think Boeing did a hydrogen fuel cell. Test Airplane. Fifteen years ago when The technology's been there, but being able to scale up I. Think is the issue now. You're talking to his story about current technology. You might not get the best words on all that, but the general trends are with electron electric solar power. Those sorts of things that have been studied for a long time. The efficiencies getting better and I think at some point in the future you will see that's that's the direction. It's going, but I think you'll see it. I didn't some of these urban mobility personal vehicles the taxes that we see so many different companies working on now. Don't mind. I. Structure over. Four zero zero five. This is Boeing Tower. You're clear to make a straight in approach to runway one three. When South West to five, gusting three five extreme caution eighty to ninety degree right crosswind reported harbor or Five Ron John. How people doing with the very blockages, various sets that have happened in the last couple of years. Big Staff and aircraft on the ground, not taking off. How'd you deal with it well? Boeing has been around for one hundred years and we've seen a lot of adversity in this business where we do things like I said earlier. We do things that other people think are too hard to do or impossible. And we look back at our history and we've seen times. When after the First World War that Bill Boeing was faced with closing the company. There wasn't any business, and he actually kept going with the money from his own account. He kept his team here. He said you know if we make it through these years these upcoming one or two years. If we make it through, there'll be no turning back and he was right. And that really sets a tone for us. We saw in nineteen thirties. The depression at the end of World War Two. There was a downturn famously at the beginning of the nineteen seventies with the recession worldwide recession in cancellation of our S. T. and there was the famous sign will the last person to leave Seattle please turn out the lights, so we've seen adversity, and we've overcome it, and that's part of our DNA. Boeing. That's the culture here that we have that in our background at center blood so I think everybody here working hard and will. The company will continue. Finally here we are where we began in the Museum of. Flight, I don't know how many aircraft you've got hanging up there on the ground, the whole of history flight when young people come in when you get visitors, what do they look at and what excites some most one of the great things about flight I've always thought other than the creative power that goes into making great art and sculpture and music. There are I think the one thing beyond that that really work humanities. Creative spirit really shines in flight. And I think that it makes it easy for us that capture that imagination when you hear a plane fly over up and see it, and and there's just there's something primitive inside of us right that when ancient people looked up at birds, and said yeah, you know it. Chris and data loose and Greek astronomers, looking to the stars and drying them into constellations. That dream has been there. Maybe you shouldn't have mentioned curious well, yeah. You know I mean that's just such a part of history of technology, right in and sciences. We Teddy Roosevelt. said it best. You know you get into the arena, and sometimes you fail, but you gotTA. Pick yourself up and go, and and it is part of this grand adventure is that it's a business? It's a science. It's technology technology been aerospace's is something we have to accept you're gonNA. GonNa face challenges. You have to have the strength to overcome them in the imagination to create that innovation and discovery to move it forward and I think that's what we build these great edifices to that you think about it other than again the arts. What do we build museums for aviation everywhere? It's just something that captures the imagination. It's one of the greatest things we do. We've. Broken the bonds of Earth we've broken the bonds of gravity and traveled into space and it really it. One of the greatest things we do is humanity is is achieving flight so I think it is easy to get that inspiration to create that wonder and that dream in the next generation. Will actually Sonos seven and much greater acceptance of air travel. It was obvious that if that efficiency could be built another airplanes, the whole transportation system, take off and produce quite a bit of benefits to everybody including prophets to the operator so Boeing then pursue medium airplanes like the seventy seven, and finally all the way down to the little seven three seven, so the jets really. Really cover the whole field air travel really did take off because of the jets, and it was obvious that the next step is to try and satisfy a bigger market demand. More people wanted to travel. The cost of air travel is still a little bit too high. The way to improve that is to go after better efficiency, which meant improved engines and better aerodynamics better structure. And larger capacities. Boeing! and. Discussing the situation with major potential customers was amazed to find out that the airplanes. We were thinking too small. And that really was bringing into being an airplane, the size of the seven forty seven. That size was not picked by bowling. It was picked by airlines like an American British Airways Lufthansa Japan Airlines. And it was quite a shock to we engineers when they asked us to produce in that lurch especially with a brand, new style of engine called a high bypass ratio engine. And you have to give a lot of credit to engine manufacturers without those engines, we couldn't be making their type airplanes like some forty seven. But the combination of a very efficient high bypass ratio engine, also it gives us the ability to lift capacity to the air that produced offering economic suck really produced air transportation as we know it today. It was a very very bold gamble. Boeing was putting the network of the company and online. it exhausted. Boeing Resources and Boeing Pretty thin financially you at the time we'd Bloomberg. The I seven forty seven. I think that Kinda gamble would be hard to take today. On February, the ninth nine, hundred, sixty, nine, after days of Subzero conditions, the sudden force of Niche crew were ready for the first flight. The rain and code conditions stool. And the hopeful breaking the weather did not materialize. They waited for a break in the dodge that covered paine field to Everett Washington state. Then just before noon, the hope for breaking the town's game and the seven four seven screw decided to attempt a take off. Just a thousand yards of runway, the sixteen wheeled three hundred seventeen largest passenger aircraft in the world took to the air. The Qantas plane that said goodbye to stray at this week, the grand seven four seven. An Irish with Boeing historian Michael Lombardi at the flat museum in Seattle. And our best wishes to all those in the aviation industry as they ride these turbulent times. So what's next in the air? Here's Sancho producer David Fisher with thoughts of frequent flyer. I have to admit it. I probably fly too much till use to. A long haul must use Use Zealand for the weekend, and all those domestic flights all possible. If you're a sleuth for cheap fares, a lot to think I am. And now aviation is transforming. It into what? The industry's been pummeled as the world response to the virus. Many international borders shot travelers from the US not welcomed in Europe here in Australia. Incoming passengers now have to pay for two weeks hotel, quarantine, and in Sydney. You need to be one of just three hundred fifty lucky arrivals permitted each day. Qantas said it might be a year before international flights are back to normal. That'd be lucky. Meanwhile Airlines are moving away from large aircraft. The trend has been on for a while, but now the changes sped up. Qantas has just retired its last seven, four seven after impressive fifty years of service. British Airways have retard the entire fleet of thirty to seven four sevens, just like that. Then this the eighty which never worked for airlines operating costs silage. If the aircraft isn't full, it runs at a loss passes, loved it with all that space, but the hub model of flying supported by jumbo aircraft was even out of date when the first three eighty two passengers back into thousand and seven. A used a three eighty is now worth nothing. Sure they can be parked in a desert somewhere and most will be brought back into service, but the second hand value. Zip. Smaller more efficient aircraft such as the seventy seven main point to point is now the way. Rather than two to three hours to a hub, a long flight to a second hob followed by another two three hours. You can likely get to distance with one flight. Is it time for a radical new approach new aircraft new technology? The triangulate blended wing form has been on the drawing board for over ten years. This is known as the silent aircraft. It office far less drag than the tube design familiar with with the engines mounted above the wing, shielding those on the ground from engine noise, although there's the not so small problem of how to get everyone out fast enough in emergencies. Engines. The present design is a compromise of efficiency between high and low altitude flying. Just as wings change shape for takeoff, cruise and landing so could. especially the nozzle where the gas exits at the Rio offering huge savings in burnt fuel and emissions and one of electric aircraft, if batteries can be developed with sufficient grunt, aircraft to the future wouldn't have to lift all that fuel. Shaw batteries are heavy, but for some flights, the white calculations a tipping on the side of batteries. Today's planes burn fuel to carry fuel and reducing emissions from aviation is a priority. Any Zealand and engine manufacturer, Rolls Royce or exploring hybrid jet fuel electric plans for short flights, but sadly there up against Boeing and Airbus who have shown a lack of enthusiasm. These radical new designs can take up to twenty years to make it to production and with the whole sector bleeding end on life support. I wouldn't be surprised if research took a backseat for a while. And how to judge future demand for air travel until we have a vaccine and treatment for covert flying is likely to main being cooped up for hours, wearing a mask with little interaction with other passengers or crew, as everyone will be wearing a mask at might end up being essential travel only for quite some time. Let's hope this new world is a temporary one. Yes, let's hope with David Fisher.
Episode 284 "Our National Treasures Are Our Language Keepers"
"Oppy appears this on. Save all these things knew. There was a deep every ladies and gentlemen boys and girls and children of all ages. No way you have reached native opinion. We are an indigenous information and education radio show and podcast every week. We talk about current affairs related to and from our own native american perspectives mining. Is michael kicking bear. Of course the guy over there he is david grail. Good morning all good morning to you brother. How's it going running brother it's going. It's oh yeah been reading some of the articles surrounding the fools departure and he wants He wants to hold separateness ceremony at joint base andrews and there have been hints about him wanting a parade. Here's here's the ultima. Here's the ultimate spoof on him if he got his parade with the boy scouts as the people in the parade instead of our military just march boy scouts from fifty states. Down down whatever avenue at joint base andrews. they're holding to hold a parade use the boy scouts instead of the military right. Let me sum it up this way. That'd be the ultimate spoof. Let me let me Let me let me sum it up this way. No as ad that fair. No i would think it would be just the ultimate spoof just to use the boy scouts. Honestly i'm i for the last. Two weeks i've transitioned myself away from you. Know anything trump. I don't care. I really don't. I'm sure that most of us don't either. Who cares at this point. The only thing. I care about relevant to anything. Trump is for the family being jail period. But then i'll pay attention okay. Cuffs on this individual. Twelve o one. Am january twentieth of this month. I will pay attention to that anything out beyond that. I've moved on. It's time to look at the new administration and keep them in check so you know. That's that's where i'm at with it now. i'm sure now i just. I just felt that that would be the ultimate slap in the face to him on his way out. The door do is to have his parade with the boy scouts and nothing against the boy scouts. So i have nothing against the scouts. It's just he wants to use our military to still try to convince the he's this this great leader and just have the boy. Scouts just walked by and wave by. I just i But anyway that's that would be the ultimate slapped him. I agree i agree. I don't know he's he's not he's not worth the breath that it takes to say his name or even call him the fool in the white house. But i love doing that. So what what would that look like. Though with the boy. Scouts go walking down the street. He's along with a bunch of probably much more advanced Ten year olds than we would think about. Well it would. They would probably Some of them would probably be typical. You know children and goofing around and shoving each other and you know that would be the ultimate slapping. It's face because it would be a representation of how he left this nation in. Just utter chaos. You just be interesting you know again. I have nothing against. I used to be one. So would just it would be really interesting. I don't know maybe sound like this. Mr trump. why are you such an asshole. Pitch some of them probably would ask to march down whatever street we don't care about but you know i don't know i don't know But anyway good morning everybody. Good morning and chat or whatever time you may actually pick this this lovely broadcast up again. This is native opinion in. Thanks very ever so much for for checking us out. You know if this is your first time to thank you. Thank you for for doing so and absolutely very much. The various different ways that you can reach us here on the show. We have a chat room as we say you can find out the instructions on how to get into the chat room. Every saturday morning we do the show live starting at ten. Am eastern time and the instructions on our website. At native opinion dot com. So please go in and utilize that you also can use the spreaker app to chat with us and listened to the show live as well and Those are those are two fantastic ways can also email us hosts with an s. hosts at native opinion dot com. I'm sorry that was my watch. Ding at me. Because i forgot to put it on their fear mode all right so you can reach us through twitter. It's at native opinion out there. Your watch felt lonely. My finally broke down. Actually a few months ago now purchased an apple watch so it's a judgment to get used to a. I don't watches and myself. Never have traditionally gotten along. I've always break them because i smacked system. This thing is held up so far. Haven't even scratched it yet. So you know. Knock on only have plastic. It's been okay so far anyway. again you can reach us through facebook at facebookcom ford slash native opinion podcast and again. 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It's not a live show but it is a podcast and we call that our wednesday edition and we thank you for listening to both of those podcast and we want you to know we appreciate the support we receive from every bit of it and financial support we received goes directly to our costs and expenses associated with producing the show and some of those expenses. Are things like website and podcast hosting a music licensing content development curation our daily business operations marketing advertisement and much more. And please please join the wonderful folks who have contributed to this show by becoming a patron and you can find those details on our website at native opinion dot com forward slash support and on our facebook page. Just click on the learn more button and another great way to help is as by telling people about the show Word of mouth is great advertisement and again we thank you all for listening and sharing our show when it truly does help us grow in this episode eighty four. Our national treasures are language keepers. And i'm speaking of native folks because our language keepers are our national or national treasure stores. That is so absolutely true. And i'm looking forward to getting into that content later today might go ahead. I'm sorry. Remind me if i forget about votes that tom cole and mark wayne mullen made in how their their their votes will impact or could act our language keepers. Okay don't let me forget police. All right i'll try to remember that because we're gonna get me you again. We are going to speak with about them. Those two individuals in an in an article later also because my brother is a is a rather humble would also like to point you guys to his podcast which is worth water and air that i get that right food water and i knew i screwed up. It's okay and and that is also available in all of podcast directories that we mentioned as well and we'll be part of the For coming indigenous voices podcast network that That we are working on so thank you brother brother in nowadays that is now up and available for you guys so please please. Please check that out as well. Thank you for that. We also want to thank Mohegan trading posts curator's of fine authentic mohegan handmade in craft and beadwork. They make Ribbon shirts embroidered hats. Dream catchers other specialty items. We do appreciate their support. Also offer cloth masks for you guys and Little bird keeps whispering to me that Some new mass styles are going to be on that site soon so pleased nice on the lookout for that. It's all at mohegan. Trading post dot com right there all right. Why don't we rolling to listener feedback. Brother sounds good we have We had a an email here from listener. Glenn listener glenn he writes. Hello michael in david. While a couple of months out of date. I thought this news item might be of interest to you. They renamed six parks along the duwamish river in seattle. Four of those are in the local indigenous language sadly despite the public feedback it appears that the infamous quote seattle process close quote still works as it always has number one announce a thing number to get months of public feedback about this thing. Number three have significant debate in the public forums about this thing involving involving many angry letters to the editor number. Four feedback is then gathered from quote. Stakeholders quote was input is for some arbitrary reason valued over everyone else's number five. A bunch of rich white men get together in a boardroom. Decide what the public actually wants using ignoring significant parts of step one two three and four in this case however it appears that the seattle process actually produced something positive. Thanks for your show. He says nice yummy. Scroll back to something out of our office. We we've begun to okay. I'll use the word correct. We've been correcting state and federal agencies in their use of the word stakeholders when referring to native american tribes. we have in social connections to the land. Here slammed has always been our home. And and and i'll be getting into this a little bit more in a few minutes here but tribes are not stakeholders. This is a term that gar governments use to demonstrate inclusivity but it diminishes us as a people by grouping us with the general public. We are not the general public. Okay we are distinct tribal governments and and by grouping us together it it does in fact diminish a government to government relationship with with these tribes. So it it's it's a problem word Other words dat. These governments are using our our tribal partners. Gotta love that one. Yeah or federal partners. We've been called this. This is not acceptable in so again. We've we've begun to to make the those concerns aware with with with such agency. So so i just want you know and and glenn that isn't directed at you at all. This is a problem we have with against state and federal governments there in the agencies that conduct or interact with with our government. So just important to to sort of point that out. So glenn provided a link to an article and the title. The article is six parks along the duwamish river. Get new names for our in Look look shoot seed hopefully pronounce that reasonably correct and the author of the article. Is jack Rossio and jack rights after more than six months of community outreach and coordination six parks along the duwamish river have new names. The new identities of the parks were announced at a virtual port of seattle meeting on tuesday october. Twenty seventh again. You know Glennon mentioned this is an older article the public spaces on the industrialized duwamish river previously. All had names with numerical subjects but now all six of them have names that correspond with the more ecological significance and cultural history of their individual locations for of the properties have new names and Look supersede the indigenous language of people who lived near the salish sea and two of the new names are in english quote. Activating these place. Names will create a new era of understanding the indigenous communities. Our history and our connection to the land wrote cecil hanson duwamish tribal council chairwoman in a statement that was read at the announcement meeting quoting again. We pray that it will breed an opportunity to heal the relationships with one another as indian people and as citizens of the city of seattle close quote. What's interesting when i was doing. You know some very very quick research about The duwamish nation councilwoman seasonal hanson. Already brother She's been chairwoman since. Nineteen seventy five. Wow then incredible. It's just to see if she was chairwoman. And actually i watched an interview with a youtube video in Just just incredible. She's she's been deleted there that long. So so you guys It's very important to understand. And and remind americans that they stand live and also occupy stolen indigenous lands. Now current americans. Do not know this many more. Do not accept this such as the ones that recently stormed the capitol building washington. dc for. Example land acknowledgements are away to begin to change the narrative. Some tribes have begun to write land. Acknowledgments interweaving their languages with english to help in this understanding. Such is the case with some young adult citizens of the pulley up tribe who Who released a video Land acknowledgement of their own. They write quote our people the pulley that people have lived on our ancestry land. Since the beginning of time we are still here. We live work. raise her children. Take care of our community. Practice are traditional ways and speak the shoot language. i'm sorry. I'm probably butchering just as their ancestors. Did this video was created in response to the numerous requests. We received for land acknowledgments. We re we encourage you to share this video and use this in your classrooms at workspaces. This video was filmed on the ancestral lands. Of the plea people in tacoma washington. Pull the up tribal members in this video. Include charlotte boscq chris. Bryden chris demonise an amber hayward. So i'm going to play the audio from this for you guys. It's really really good. And i want to praise these these young people for for doing this. So here we go to default t. swat with could teach autophagy a slot. Saw fill all td show to opportunity to. It is the land rate here that the puyallup people have lived on since the beginning bishop. Td shush altea swat. This right here is where we are in the world. Our homelands chess t. swat to teach to asia chess by trash fish butter that chess off. Tortilla swat at t spoiler posh. We work on our ancestral lands. We raise our children who go to school on the land of the royal people know. Hey glad t suinen. Tv t pasta acquitted. We acknowledged at the medicine creek. Treaty was signed for the whites to take our land for their benefit hall. She took charge. It's not complete the swat. We put josh to pasta squat swapped. We've cleaned up to because you a teach. Boss boss to squawk land was assigned to our people. The caucasian said this is your land and they took that land from two old cady. Shush a. t. swat will put shush or doctor tub. Tease treaty are land was stolen from us. Treaties were broken toll. Ddh chess altea slack. Him but we are still here today. You quickly chess. At q-quick check that each chechen all of those two tall. Sita are people fours for food and materials. We pick berries we canoe. We practice our traditional ways. And we speak to you law not too young ilab just as our ancestors did oil chest. We are finished there. You go love that to death. I really really. It's just so awesome. Yeah it was great. Thank you for posting that further. No problem brother sharing it with our audience. Absolutely doing our part. And i say to them. Thank you for them for doing this. Ski for sure. All right your preller on we go this is from listener nell high nil and the subject is durant. High says nail nell. Excuse me i wanted to say. I recently appreciated the various episodes. Y'all have on tribal enrollment. I have been suspended. I'm sorry i have been spending time in therapy dealing with the emotional stress. My family's disembowelment on me. My grandmother's family had always lived in indian territory and oklahoma and previously and the mississippi area with other Choctaw before the trail of tears when tribal enrollment was going on. All of the men in her family were enrolled during a council meeting but none of the women in her family or their children since a drunken fight happened and no one saw reconvened or decided to bother afterwards. No amount of affidavits proof. I have shown the choctaw nation has been enough for them to bring back the women or their descendants until the choctaw nation in a desert my grandmother very deeply sorry to hear that have always been confused and very shame about not being enrolled but the discussions. I've had. I've heard excuse me on. The podcast have enlightened me as to some of the politics that go on and situations that lead to who happened with my family. It has made it easier to cope at this time. And i give a big thank you for the guest and the work you do. Yeah cokie no. Thank you for that now. We appreciate that. And i'm sorry this has happened and it has not been corrected it needs a remedy and it needs one now indeed. Indeed i again. We we say this on the show when the subject is brought up on quite often you know we have enough trouble with the laws that have been posed on on indian country Being called by the supreme court the united states domestic sovereigns and you know diminishing our our our our people through genocide and then later Laws meant to control and corrals. Why do tribes continue to attack their own people. I know. I know one of the questions of the century. It's different in my view than you know determining your own membership when it's you know somebody coming in but when already established your citizenship and then you cast people out it makes no sense to me so you know if you wanna call it me lecturing whatever you know. Is it my place to to speak to an to a specific tribe notice not i will openly admit that as well but i just don't understand some of that premise. I guess so anyway. I will leave it at that. I do feel bad Now hopefully that will eventually correct itself bite. I hope i hope bill. Thank you again for the feedback from listeners. Indeed again wealth and everybody in the church in the chat. Welcome ella who Who just Looks like just joined the chat. Great to great to see all you guys. We really appreciate you being there. I'm gonna try to continue to draw links into the chat here as we go along through the program so we want to give a shout out in a thank you to Host melissa a region and producer. Beverly andrews They recently had us on their program called infocus television show on the aboriginal peoples television network in canada. We really appreciate them Reaching out to us they were looking for commentary on our thoughts on on washington and and the siege and everything and so we thank them Thank them for that. Really absolutely most certainly and we'll provide some links back to their show as well. Good good stuff. That fact Leading up to our our segment they were. There are once again talking about you. Know the lobster fisherman there in the crap that they're dealing with from once again the oppressors right and how they're imposing their will. We were right to visit as much as the native people. Screw you slap the crap out of go join the trump supporters. That's their attitude. So then also. This caught my attention brother. Thought we could talk a little bit about this The nra apparently has in fact declared bankruptcy. And they're apparently moving operations to a place that will probably welcome them openly. That would be texas the planning to incorporate now in texas. Here's a quick story from the ap out of austin texas. That's where my my son lives. Actually the national rifle association announced friday that it has filed for bankruptcy will seek to incorporate the nation's most politically influential gun rights group in texas instead of new. The announcement made on the nra's website comes months after new york attorney. General sued the organization over claims that top executives illegally diverted tens of millions of dollars for lavish personal trips no-show contracts for associates. Another questionable expenditures the coronavirus pandemic has also up ended the nra which last year laid off dozens employees canceled its national convention scuttled fundraising still. The nra claimed in announcing that the organization was quote in its strongest financial condition in years. Nra said it filed for chapter eleven bankruptcy. So you know so contrast those two statements. They're quote is they're they're in the strongest financial position that they've ever been in but yet they file for chapter eleven. Does that any that anybody now. That statement is the the dying gasp of an organization. We've been the strongest fine. The we've been in the strong financial condition we've been ending years. We're closing the doors. We will say this and this is from the article as well. The gun rights group boasts about five million members. Though headquartered in virginia in array was chartered as a nonprofit. A joke in new york. Back way back in in eighteen seventy nuts. That's when americans still talked like this just getting and is incorporated in again in the state of new york so just other was interesting. they're pulling a partial trump. They're running two to avoid prosecution is i they. They can't count me. Among their five hundred boasted members. I cut up my lifetime membership years ago and sent it back in pieces in an envelope in an envelope. I did as a as a you know what you to the nra. What was that guy's name lapeer. But i can't say didn't on family family channel. Well i don't know if it's that that family but Yeah it was. It was was i going to say. The live high on the hog. And now that very same attorney. General is is the one that i'm hoping we'll make a request to To have cuffs ready for one individual that claim to be the leader of the free world for the last four years now. Recently as of. I think what maybe a year and a half ago claimed that his residency is now florida Down with you. How does that make you feel brother. He's on the other side of the state so i don't have to smell him. Don't be too sure you know. I don't know they won't let him come. They won't let him take residency on the west coast and nobody wants him over here. Sure now anyway there you go all right so we're going to native news. Yeah we can do that. Just thinking about article. I read this morning. I'll off say because we'll we'll be able to get into it shortly. Okay as i mentioned at the opening our national treasures for native people are our language keepers and our language keepers primarily our elders. And we do all we can to preserve. Our elders and intern preserve our language. And this next article made me sad a little because of what this pandemic has done to native native peoples and the article was written by jack healey For new york times. And i'm surprised that the new york times ran the story and the title is native. Elders are dying from the pandemic causing a cultural crisis for american indians and the byline reads the virus has killed american indians at especially high rates robbing tribes of precious bonds and repositories of language and tradition. And that's very true from standing rock reservation grandma dolores first silencing and eighty six year old voice that rang with lakota songs and stories then it came for ralph stoic vietnam veteran and just after christmas two more elders of the taken a lie family were buried in the frozen north dakota prairie jesse and shirl husband and wife who died a month apart quoting it takes your breath away the amount of knowledge they held the connection to our past said ira taken alive. The couple's eldest son one by one those connections are being severed as corona buyers tears through ranks of north american. Sorry native american elders inflicting an incalculable toll on bonds of language and tradition that flow from older generations to the young quoting. It's like we're having a cultural book burning. We're losing how stoorikhel record encyclopedias. One day soon. There won't be anybody to pass this knowledge down to in quote said jason salzman a spokesman for the muskogee creek nation in eastern oklahoma whose grandparents were whose grandparents contracted the virus but survived. Thank goodness the loss of tribal elders have swelled into a cultural crisis as the pandemic has killed american indians and alaska natives at nearly twice twice the rate of white people. Deepening what critics call the deadly toll of tattered health system and generations of and broken promises by the us. Which brings me to comment that. I need to make about the gentleman. That's running the indian health service now stepping down so the biden administration can appoint somebody. And i can't remember his name. Admiral wheelock i think his name is and he he. He is native tribal member of. I can't remember the tribe. I thought i kept the article but it must have closed. But he was a trump appointee relocate the article in pass it on but the article goes on to say jesse taken alive. I'm sorry i'm sorry. Go ahead jesse taken live record. Contrary stated that their parents died a month apart both from the coronavirus the deaths the deaths of the muskogee elder stain the tribes burial program are strained the tribes barrier program. Excuse me they were grandparents and macos traditional elders who knew how to prepare for annual green corsair money and how to stoke sacred fires. Their ancestors had carried to oklahoma on the trail of tears. One tiny methodist church on the reservation recently lost three cherished great aunts who would sneak candy and smiles too restless children during sunday services. Quoting will never be able to get that back end. Quote missiles man said tribal nations and volunteer groups are now trying to protect their elders emission of cultural survival navajo women's started to campaign to deliver meals and sanitize sanitizer too high desert trailers and motorhomes without running water where have been left stranded by quarantines lockdowns of community centers some now post colored cardboard in their windows green for okay read for help in western montana led by a grocery store worker. Put together turkey dinners and hygiene packets to deliver to blackfoot nation elders in arizona. The white mountain apache sent out the monitors with pulse oximeters and taught young people how to monitor the grandparents vital signs. I think all of these all of these measures are wonderful. They they need to be done in an expanded. And that's how you take care of your elders. These are some of the ways that we take care of. Our elders might and my. My nation is doing that as well. Oh good across. The country tribes are now putting elders and fluent indigenous language speakers at the head of the line for vaccinations but the effort faces. Huge obstacles elders. Who live in remote locations often have no means to get to the clinics and hospitals. Vaccines are administered. And there's a deep mistrust of the government in a generation that was subjected without consent to medical testing shipped off to boarding schools and punished for speaking their own language in a decades. Long campaign forced assimilation. Yes put that in context now now. Now it's okay. Take the vaccine looking at you like no. I'm sorry i was. I was raised by some of that theory generation. An older and i remember the stories. My grandparents and great grandparents told i remember those stories. I'll never forget them. So my hat goes off to those tribes that are fighting tooth and nail to save their elders their language keepers and my heart goes out to the tribes who have lost. National treasures are language keepers. Are elders the rest of this will be in the show. Notes it. It's it's kind of heartbreaking to read but it just gives you a night it'll give you an idea as to how much this this viruses devastated. You'd native communities. And i'm glad the elders being put out front to get the virus. I am sorry. I'm not an antibac- sir. But i don't trust the virus. I i'm not knocking those that have taken it. I'm not you know something in my gut is twisting in like a knife in a gut in i. Something is not right about this virus. I can't help say in it. But that's that's all. I'll say on that and again the rest of this article be on the show notes. Please please take the time to read it I at this point. I don't know what else to say about this current virus. There's a new strain up there. Be one point. One point seven that spreading like wildfire and on on the vaccine front. I mean You know 'cause. I've already said it publicly My own concerns about it as well as taking it. I've taken it and we'll we'll take the booster and in about two more weeks. But i also be the first to tell anybody if i start having any weird symptoms or feel funky after taking this I'll make sure i tell people. You know pleased. Yeah please do because You know because people need to know either way. India need to know the truth regardless if it's bad or good You know so. So far fingers and toes crossed. I been feeling fine. No different than before. I took it so you know one of the things one of the things i honestly worry about is that it's all bs and for all we know they injected me was saline solution right. You know i mean who knows. I mean yes. That sounds real conspiratorial issue. I know but you know The biggest the biggest thing though is there's there's absolutely no No data to support length of so-called protection protection. They're exactly that's my. That's one of my exact points that i've been making so i could take. You know i could take this in the booster and thirty days later. Catch kobe but i was protected for thirty days. You know what i'm saying. You just don't know that i'm sorry. Go ahead no. I'm done. But as i said i'll let anybody you know honestly starting to dave with my brother and chat also make my biological brother if i if i if i get sick and let people know but but anyway i will. We'll see we will see. Yeah i just. I don't know. Sometimes i want to catch one of the next flights out of the stratosphere to the space station and paying off richard branson might have a seat for you and lows shuttles these you might you might or catch a ride on one of musk's flights through the space man. Not going anywhere. Even if that was an option did this the mere fact that they they're scientists in the space program or talking about colonization of mars for an indigenous person. You hear the word colonize and you cringe. So you know that that's like saying okay. We admit it. We have aft- up this planet to the point we cannot no longer inhabited it. We have to move on right. That's yeah look for anyone after his life on another planet this these people are targeting to going so-called colonize. I dunno send me an email from another planet as quickly as we can expect to see big neon signs on other planets. That read no vacancies. 'cause it's the same old same old and i'll actually give you guys a recommendation from net flicks There is a there is a good. I don't know how you would classify it. It's sort of a documentary slash drama. So as a docudrama. Maybe it's called mars and it actually sort of dramatizes or An actual the challenges that colonizing another planet you know might endure and they also look at you know the ethics around it right. You know. I don't want to give too much away. One of the things is know from what i've gathered. They don't encounter necessarily life like you know a race of people there but there are other ethical challenges with it as well that they that they do address. It's worth watching anyway. So yeah for for those on that same note for those of you. That are anime. Fans there is. i can't think of the name of it but there is an animated. I'll look for it and now post it. There's an anime about the. Us wanting to colonize mars so what they did was they sent organisms up there. Things like cockroaches and other things and the cockroaches evolved and they became humanoids and humans kept going to mars and not coming back and they figured out that it was these giant lloyd. Cockroaches were killing them so one of the things to think about you know. Don't send cockroaches sick or may already be there in their here right. I mean it was. It was a pretty intense enemy out the check it out. That sounds interesting. Hum this next article so earlier mentioned trying to transition away from anything dealing with trump and the obviously already broken that in this in this episode. Still do struggle with it. You know if. I'm being completely honest. But there's the residual factor that will be with us for a long time And one of the residual factors is trump supporters in congress. And that's what this next article sort of deals with an here's world mentioned what i asked you. Help me remember. We'll go ahead and do otherwise we may forget okay. Well my brother just mentioned you know trump supporters will. There's three people that just sit on judges that they're gonna come back from another planet as this cockroach. Trump's bathrobe mars space force cockroach battalions come to take over your planet. We are race of a holes in august. You said we don't have fun on this show. Okay and we have no spleens. Speaking of digital you could have more than one spleen no. It's a bio break brought to. You need that special music under there that you can have boy. oh yes. Speaking of splaine lists trump supporters and spineless trump supporters. There are at least three native people in this article that are trump supporters and this article became part of the narrative in relation to the first article of our show. Those native trump supporters are not even thinking about our language keepers when they vote against their own interest to help. Keep this fool in office. They are not thinking about their their language keepers. They're not thinking about anybody but themselves. So they voted against their own people their own languages and they helped to bring this pandemic to the point that it's at but that's what i wanted to say for it brother just trying to get these articles into chats our very to read while you're doing that i'm just about done here. Sorry i guess we need to produce another producer gave some. We need like like alive producer. We pinch myself. I was waitress warning. No no no no. I know someone to take care of this administrative portion. Yeah exactly or even an intern. Okay well i have an idea for one okay. Works okay here. We go so the title reads. Two wrongs don't make a right representative. You bet herrell. Republican next new mexico impeaching donald trump. And this was published through indians dot. Com article goes on to say representative. You've met herald republican of new mexico. A new member of congress addresses the united states house of representatives for the third time on january thirteenth of twenty twenty one for the third time the subject of heralds remarks was not legislation government policy or issues of interest in new mexico sagging second congressional district no instead the citizen of the cherokee nation once again talked about keeping fellow republican donald trump in office even though he lost the presidential election in november and incited his supporters into violence at the united states capitol. Last week quote. Political violence has no place in our constitutional republic and those who assaulted police officers and forced their way into the capital are responsible for their criminal actions. Close quote herald said okay thus far and this is me talking now correct going. On of the trump supporters actions contributed to the deaths of five people in january. Sixth herrell however did not mention trump by name discuss it or discuss his role in stoking the mob in the nation's capital according to her analysis it was democrats who deserves scrutiny. Because they had impeach the president wants. And we're about to do so a second time. I'll let that sink and ask yourself if that makes any game sense now. Here's your quote. Two wrongs don't make a right close quote herald said of the respect of the repeated. Efforts to hold trump accountable. What are you to right since taking office on january third every significant vote herald has cast has been in aid of keeping trump in office. She was among one hundred and forty. Seven republicans who voted against certifying the results of the twenty twenty presidential election her first floor speech on january seventh and her second on january twelfth. Were made in support of trump as well despite herald views. The house voted two hundred and thirty to one hundred ninety seven on thirteenth to impeach trump for high crimes and misdemeanors ten. Republicans joined ev Joined every democrat in approving h house resolution twenty four but while some republicans changed their minds about trump the following the capital riot the overwhelming majority did did not so we have to name them. Because it's important representative tom cole. Republican from oklahoma a citizen of the chickasaw nation to say his name again mark wayne mullen republican oklahoma. A citizen of the cherokee nation also voted against impeaching trump. Harrell who was elected in november of twenty twenty is the third native woman to serve in congress and should in know in that needs to be noted as well even though i completely disagree with her on this matter. At least ripped represented deb jalan of course democrat of new mexico who hails from the pueblo of laguna and also representative cherise davis a democrat from kansas and citizen of the host nation who all returned to the house this month after winning second terms in office. Congratulations to the mall. And i and i'm extending that also to representative herald okay. Both holland in david's voted to impeach trump. Both times good because it was the correct thing to do so. This logic makes zero sense and these individuals in congress who are from indian country no better historically and otherwise. They can spin it any way they want. They can rationalize it in their minds however they want the bottom line is you're caved to your peers because you are uncomfortable in voting which you know is right. Turtle man kind of gave them a wink wink. Vote your conscience kind of speech. Really want me to go there well. Sadly i don't think the trial is going to happen until after the fool is gone which which still counts. It still counts. So maybe maybe they'll convict him this time because they don't have anything that they need to worry about but we'll see there are important things to consider in favor of convicting him One is to keep in mind that new year's eve party and who paid for that the mounting legal battles that he is going to have in front of him not to mention potentially jail time. Who's going to pay for that. And who has paid for that some of the yes trump supporters that have donated to him but how about this without a conviction. Donald trump retains a salary you as he leaves office. Donald trump gets to retain security traveling from wherever. He's going to travel if he chooses to accept. Those are just off the top of my head. There is healthcare coverage which may or may not be an issue but if he's broke might be more so the bottom line is if he's convicted he becomes a felon and he loses everything. Yes everything that he should have never gotten in the first place. But i digress. And they're the percentage of americans out there that that just feel like it's enough for him to leave and not be bothered with it again but you see part of that is if he's not convicted. He gets to run again if he chooses so no. It doesn't go away necessarily so the bigger issue i think is those supporters that mentality. That's what i'm concerned about. And that's what is leftover. Now we can say yes it that has always been there but those that were once empowered are now desperate and those that were once empowered. Now feel they've had something taken away true in. Those are part of the lingering problem that we're all going to have to deal with you rumblings of it for example because you know now we've got every state in the in the country concerned about attacks on their own capitals and they should be well. You know i'm just going to say those good old boys handing to them. That's what's going to happen. Help you right on the military. Here's the thing. They've already arrested people and are charging them with felonious crimes. They're leaning heavily towards sedition and insurrection. They're already calling them insurrectionist. So it's a foregone conclusion that they're going to try them on those grounds those that they can find. But they're you know with the way i look at it. There was okay. Let's just figure out there. Three thousand people that converged on the capital that day right all right. I look at as those are three thousand activists that are leading hate groups journey. So you know. They could point cameras at wherever and singled some of these guys out and sure they can convict them because they were stupid. Enough to livestream themselves posted on social media. But what about the rest of them. Hopefully they'll they will catch enough. I'm not gonna be naive enough to believe that they're gonna get them all right right but i look at it no different than than i do al qaeda right when you have idiots like a pompilio talking about how we took care of the problem of al-qaeda i can't think of exact quotes so don't hold to it. But what what is the fear with with a group like al qaeda that they go underground so to speak. And i'm saying that figuratively regroup and come back out and you're still having to deal with them. How is that any different than these guys. Storm washington well. The good thing is in my opinion. Most americans don't have the that kind of resolve al qaeda does they just don't Real hope you're right. Yeah i most americans. They have short memories. But i start guide brother. I'm so sorry. I have my pad today. I write down when i have when i have additional thoughts and so that i don't interrupt you. Don't have sorry it's okay. Go ahead you know they. They just don't have. The americans have short memories as it is. I'm speaking in generalities mind you. And most americans don't have the resolve that al-qaeda does you know they'll go out there and they'll take their group so he's like you saw on facebook post in other things like they're on a ski trip somewhere but when push comes to shove those people are gonna say whoa you know i. This was more than i hoped for more than i bargained for. And they're going to go away quietly. Most americans don't have that kind of zoff and those that are portraying what they call their patriotism which is white supremacy disguised in whatever you feces or whatever you wanna call it those. Those folks are just idiots. They're just idiots and their their mentality is a majority of the public at large is defenseless. That's what they believe. They believed that the military is on their side. That's what they believe. Some of law enforcement yet. Some of law enforcement is on their side. That's a foregone conclusion. But if they may attack the state houses and federal buildings again they will get their asses handed to them the chairman of the joint chiefs of staffs put it out there in plain sight to all the active duty military and reserve members the military. Your allegiance lies to the constitution and your duty as a us military member to protect the constitution and the american people. He's he's drawn a line in the sand when he put that letter out so those those good old boys are going to get their asses handed to them. Because when they decide to attack federal property federal individuals they become enemies of the state domestic terrorist. They're gonna get their asses handed to them while ago. A little a little broader you know in in The disenfranchised as they as they see themselves white guys primarily that re grouping may do you know smaller terroristic or domestic terroristic. You know they may. I'm looking at people like Like former siat the guy with the van with a lot of stuff and a lot of innocent people. And there's a lot of caesar science out there absolutely now feel like democrats in particular stole something from them. That's absolutely what they believe. Been believing that sense. Since the civil war the first civil war they'd been believing learn so the ideology is not new. It's inbred and it's it's long. It has a long history. And you're absolutely right brother. They're going to be isolated. Incidents of i call it guerrilla activity. Because that's what it is. But they're going to get their asses handed to him with the mentality of believing that the masses at large are defenceless. That's what they're counting on. The masses at large is defenseless. And that's not that's not that's not true. That's not the case. They believe that they're the only one out there with guns okay. That's what you want to believe. Boy you all right well. We'll step off it for the time being but but keep keep an eye and some in congress. Oh item trust a whole bunch of them. I'm sorry i'm terrible with names this morning but cliff posted Something in in our mail. What is it called. Meet the republican. I'm sorry meet the members of the two thousand twenty one publican congressional sedition caucus so. Yeah all of those that objected. No i don't trust him not one When one last small thing here that's politically related. And then we'll we'll move on in the rundown here in this audience. Going to sound like crap blow. Warn you guys ahead of time but this was Cbs they took when they're when they're trying to get political commentary from left and right they bring on who handled hillary clinton's failed campaign right and the other gentleman's name is escaping me. But he handled. Marco rubio's at president sullivan is his last name. And so here's sullivan. Speaking on cbs. This morning a couple days ago talking about that individual in the crowd that storm the capital wearing. You know dressed like a fricken viking. And i wanna correct some things that people are under misbelief about here was that appearance seems to be somewhat working. We haven't seen any irrational only retro things and seventy two hours since he said it and that's a pretty big deal for donald. Trump seems to be working strategic mood. I'm really curious. Because you've you've got what you say. I think the leadership of the party may be ready to move on from donald trump or republican voters to bomb. Because i'm looking at polls that saying they don't blame donald trump for what happened at the capitol again. It's it's not even both parties. If it's america has become a one issue country fixated on donald trump in a lot of what you see you know. Look the guy who's wearing a native american headdress. Are full costume. Went jailing in arizona's charlotte. He's not a conservative republican on. So i think what you saw a lot of a lot of crazy. People following the lead of one crazy person states. And so i listen. I logically issue or even hardly issue. It's that he has. He has made the fever. Pitch nation honored instead turned everything about him. I think america hopefully running move off. And that's what it's really about. Where i'll be thinking about two thousand all right. So what the first of all you guys. That is not a shaman. Okay again this is the default thing that why people go to when when they don't know anything about you know american indian culture. They see they see leather. They see feathers. And that the medically zoom shaman right. No this guy's an asshole from some state. He's in jail now. His mother was crying to the press that they're not feeding him Fruits and vegetables. Because because he you know has a special diet and so she's crying that they're mistreating him in jail. Your son is not a shaman lady. And i'm sorry if you know. Somebody misled him to believe that he's not a native spiritual leader. He's an idiot dressed painting his body. Like god knows what an american flag colors and is now under arrest pending federal charges. That's who this guy is native american. He's he's an actor that's who he is -gratulations. Your son is now a federal felon. Okay so i hear stuff like that. I saw that imprint somewhere too. And i'm like no really boy saints about. Somebody's asked trump depart in him. Well you know the donald trump's about himself so he's not about the pardon anybody else until pardons himself so whatever he better get on it. He's got three days truly really honestly three days. We have let that fu showing shots. Some people in the current administration. Moving out you know. But anyway they're pillaging the white house. Somebody there was a photo of somebody carrying out lincoln's bust. Oh yeah yeah. I saw that. Make sure you who spunky their y'all more federal fennel felonies. Yeah so it is where i think the biggest thing. I laughed about now. I'm laughing but it's half serious as well. They intend to go in there with a with a full kobe cleaning team. You know year before the new administration takes office. I wouldn't want to go in there seriously. I would You know because it's got to gotta be safe gotta be safe and so Which also brings me to. I just haven't had a chance. Queued up properly. You guys but we're gonna one more time. Sorry i was supposed to be off this political stuff but another story that has surfaced that. Cbs also brought forward. I guess at cbs day is to congress Two democrat congresspeople apparently have come down with kobe debut. May this story. I dunno i and they They are blaming republican. Congress people because they refused to wear a mask and this was during The capital siege and they're apparently was cell phone video of Of republicans refusing mass and one of the rip one of the re representatives is none other than mark wayne mullen republican from oklahoma cherokee nation. Neither do a double take. Make sure that that it was him but then they had audio and recognize his voice. Any said quote. And i'm paraphrasing just a little bit. I don't wanna make this a political thing as he puts his hand out and says no. I don't wanna mask so telling me. This isn't the time to get off the trump discussion. Well i'm trying though. I am so done with the whole thing i really am but but anyway Just more and more examples of irresponsible behavior Like it so. I guess the country's not gonna get around. Get kobe in the pandemic under control. Especially when this other strains out there when you know. And i know everybody's exhausted and they don't. They don't wanna do the social distance. I don't either. But what else are we supposed to do until you have two choices. Wear a mask or take a vaccine. I guess those are the choice. Those those are the lovely choices that we're now having to face others still suggesting people wear the masks even after the vaccine. Because i i do. Because it's it's also a requirement in public spaces so if you gotta go to the grocery store for example. The survivor vaccine in my arm or not. I you know my body rather. I just sent you a post on facebook facebook message that we need to address right now. Okay where is this. Where is this. It's it's in the chat room. All right i'm sorry okay taking care of all right so let's move on. Show thank you. Thank you for telling me to okay. So last week we introduce a new segment. Went something like this free into the kids do either. Cheap wages of she gets a weekly never gigs. She's ashtrays time for the cairns creed that sub great all right so this is a follow up from last week's same story you know. Cbs this morning host gayle king interviewed mia pawn seto the twenty two year old. Who accused and attacked a fourteen year. Old young boy of color in a hotel in new york city Accusing him of taking her cell phone and so i wanted to play A bit of that interview And then we'd have a discussion around it. Brother sounds good all right so here we go sharing more of our exclusive interview with the woman who's confrontation with a black teenager in a new york hotel was caught on camera over the holidays. Cell phone video shows me upon seto accusing fourteen year. Old kion herald junior of stealing her iphone last month. Concetta was arraigned over the weekend and freed on supervised release. She is charged with a robbery. Attempted grand larceny endangering the welfare of a child and attempted assault. We spoke with onset on her attorney that sharon catan just hours before her arrest last week this morning we begin where we left off on friday. You seem to have attacked this teenager about the phone and then it turned out. He didn't even have your phone okay. So that's the thing you're saying. Twenty two years twenty two years old but you are old enough to know better. Oh with a twenty two enough. The hotel did have my phone. The hotel did. I ended up having my phone. I did i get my belongings. Return to me. So maybe it wasn't him but at the same time. How was it so that soon as i get asked to leave the premises after. I had accused this person of stealing my phone. How is it that all the sudden they just miraculous. They have my phone when i come back. And the and the didn't seem as if my accusations really bothered the the son and the father because they were just enjoying a nice meal right after this whole encounter. But all i must be over and i'm sorry i'll make this short and mia mia. I wanna go back to that day. Take us back to that day. We've all seen the video okay. So i arrived back to the hotel. After grabbing some starbucks. I had noticed my phone had been missing so i approached. The hotel manager. Asked him if he could check the footage. In my opinion. I was like okay. Any person walking down could possibly be. The person might have had my phone. I wasn't racial profiling whatsoever. I'm i'm puerto rican. I'm like a woman of color. I'm i'm italian. Greek puerto rican. You keep saying you're puerto rican. Does that mean that you can't be racist because you're saying you're a woman of color. Is that what you mean exactly. Well i would disagree. That people of color can be racist to. Do you believe that you should pay a price for this. I don't feel that my accusation is a is a crime but it's more than the accusation. It's the way that you tackled him. It seems on the videotape. What would you do differently. You said that you look at that tape. And that's not who you are. I think i could have just asked the hotel manager so yes. I could've stepped aside or the father and i we we immediately could have started just speaking at a lower tone and probably that would have handled the whole situation a lot. Better with all due. Respect when mr herald was talking to you it seemed to me that he was responding to you because you had accused his son saying that both of us both of us blizzard. You know i'm not letting bottom line is this issue is much bigger than i think. Mia is appreciating and she sees it as a very simple thing attorney. Sharon catan set with quonsett or through the entire interview and wanted her client to feel empowered to tell her own story but catan also felt it. Important to provide context onset of state of mind at the time of the incident. So let me just boil it down. She was a twenty two year old woman alone in new york. No one is with her her entire those contacts flight arrangements wi fi emails apple pay her funds. Her money is all on that felt. She agreed that her behavior and her actions were definitely less than elegant. Shall we say and less than graceful and less than what anyone else would do. And she agreed and she wouldn't have repeated it. It's been reported that your phone was returned to you by an uber driver. Is that true. That is not true. Because i arrived at the hotel with my phone in my hand. Okay who returned your phone to you. The hotel Perceptionist me aware had the phone been. Why don't we ask the hotel receptionist mea to be honest. I'm telling you you seem to be not remorseful to have no contrition that. You're almost a little flippant about this. You have to understand for this teenage boy who says that. He was shattered who said that. He was traumatized. Item traumatize traumatized to sorry. I sorry from the bottom of my heart. He has it. he's fourteen and that's what that's what they're claiming young. I'm twenty two. I've lived probably just the same amount of light like honestly. I'm just as a kid at heart as he is. I feel sorry that i made the family goes through like all of that stress but at the same time it wasn't just them going through that. I just don't think that you helped yourself by your behavior of that video. What did you think what did you think mia weary asked me. You already asked me that in the beginning of the interview. I'm not going over it again. I i would like to. I would like to have a real interview with real questions and real hard and real. Sincere apologies let twenty twenty one. Be the moment of healing. Seriously all right. Would you want an interview questions. I'll give you the for. What would you like us to know. Mia that i'm sincerely sorry to the family. And the dot in the sun for making them feel as if i was a racist towards them when that is not my intention now during the interview settle kept interrupting her attorney and tan. Sharon content says her client went off script. According to her lawyer was prepared for this interview they had talked about it. They'd bone over it but the twenty two year old. She says decided to disregard her advice. She was given and just went on her own. Neo said it was in march. I really felt for the attorney. We cut out a lot of it. Because i think you already get a sense of of me upset but there was a there is a very interesting exchange between the attorney and me at one point and we just we just decided just to let it go but the attorney says look. She's concerned about her mental health and her wellbeing and she of course wishes and i could see why she is concerned. The attorney worked very very hard to try to guide her her client during the interview. And it just. It's hard when you have a client that doesn't pay attention. That's very difficult. It's difficult to sit there in silence. Well your client essentially get yourself in trouble and judging by the backlash over the weekend for the first part of your of your interview was not received. Alright so thoughts rather trump supporter. trump's border. Yeah i actually. I don't. I don't think so. But i was being flip. She deserved what she got. She she really did. She deserved the charges levied against her She tried to play the victim in every sense of the word she tried to share the blame which was solely hers. I i'll go back. I was being flippant to a degree. But that's the the modus operandi of trump supporters. Do dirt get caught play. The victim share the blame bs. I hope i hope she's convicted when she goes to trial all of the things that she was charged with. I hope she is. Our attorney tried to painter as a poor girl in new york city. All by yourself. Well she chose to go to new york city all by herself. Give me a break. You know that's a choice. She made nobody picked her up. Put her on a bus open the door and kicked her out. That's not the case. She chose to go to new york city by herself. So that doesn't fly the poor girl none on. She's no victim and she had the brought it up herself. I'm twenty two you know. It's almost like she played both ends of that coin. But you know what i mean. Oh absolutely but what are your thoughts. I got a question. What are your thoughts of gayle. King saying you know. People color can be racist. I caught that. And it's i used to know gail in. That didn't sound like the gail. I used to know it. Just didn't the reason. I say houston. Oh gail i haven't talked to gail in a number of years. Haven't seen gale in a number of years. And it's just not the gail i used to know. She would have never made a comment like that. And just to just a clue the audience in when when dave mentioned that used to live here in connecticut and gayle king Cut cutter teeth here in connecticut She she was an anchor on Wsb out of hartford connecticut and i've met gala on a number of occasions. I've met her When my father was escorting oprah to event in spoke with gail at that point corporate media has a way of changing you know sadly in so you have to conform with the will of that particular network. It's it's it's your employer right so they of expectation stated in also say what which i think is actually stronger unstated relevant to agenda in so one way you do that is play you pandered to all aspects of your audience white people of color and indifferent if you will right so you know if gale were being honest with her audience that like we try to do on this show. Her attitude might be a little bit different relevant to two forms of racism if there is such a thing as reverse. Racism is reactionary on the part of people of color in my view. Because we didn't invent it as we always say on this show. It's a construct of an environment that was created around us especially as for an indigenous people. So that's that's how i feel about that. Thank you now. They did interview the family to get their reaction to this so Looking at the clock here at an hour and a half the you want me to roll this brother yes please. Okay all right. So so same new source. Cbs so they get credit and this is again gayle. King interviewing The mother and father of the victim in this case we were hearing from the parents of a fourteen year. Old teenager was allegedly attacked by a woman in new york hotel and then wrongly accused of taking her phone. jazz musician. Kion herald recorded this video of me upset approaching his son kion herald junior falsely accusing him of stealing the fall surveillance video later shows her tackle. The teenager to the ground onset set on now faces a series of charges including attempted assault in an exclusive interview. She told the she is sorry. We asked the teens parents how he's coping with this very traumatic incident for their reaction to her apology and arrest. I'm happy that she's been arrested. But that's only the first step in a very big conversation that needs to happen here in america. That has to do racial profiling. If i had done that when my conservative done to my son i'd be in jail now. If i had heard her in any way i be in jail now. We wouldn't even be able to have this conversation as a black man. Every day i walk outside. I have to play the perfect game almost like doing a no hitter just to be believed no no. You can't no hotel. The hotel is said key on that. They believed that it should have been handled differently. Social angry to this. This could have been going this. I just want to pause for a quick second regarding the hotel. And you heard in the audio did the sound bite from the the actual incident right The gentleman who says i'm the manager of the hotel there there. You could actually see pictures of him. He looked about the same age. He looked like us. Twenty two okay. So you know you have to wonder. How much experience did he have in deescalation i. I'm not taking away from. His mom is saying it's just you know like you go into a go into like a fast food restaurant and you have grievance about your food quality and you ask. I want to see the manager. The manager comes out and again their kid. How much experience can they really have or better yet. Were they telling the truth and that to of course absolutely right here. We go escalating long time ago. We talked to me up onset. Of who says i am puerto rican. This was not racial profiling. I just really panicked. Because i didn't have my phone. She says race had nothing to do with this particular incident and certainly had nothing to do with her targeting. Your son what do you think when you hear that. No one has to say the n word for something to be an active racism. Kion you must have been stunned when you step off the elevator with your son. I'm still in shock gail. I'm still in shock. At this point. I work hard as i possibly can just put son in the best scenario to give him a chance to win to give him a chance to be a whole young man. Hope young boy blackboard. We've been all over the world and to be in our beloved new york city and this happened. I'm appalled. i am not asking you to justify your behavior or defend yourself against her. Please know that but her version is that you know. I was grabbed pushing her away to protect my son. Yes i'm in. Don't believe in hurting women. First of all second of all. I do believe in protecting my son so that is what i did. What do you all feel. Or what do you make of her apology. Those and i feel like her apology. Was you know as genuine as when she's just you. You're twenty two. I enough said a lot. I have an issue with the idea of entitlement versus character. Well it's all been tragically consistent. I'll just say that i apologize. Can we move on those exact words this with you and tone. Does that sound like an apology. She knew she assaulted a fourteen year. Old boy not a guy not a man. Kion junior comes from a musical family is a singer and saxophonist for beyond say there is a grammy award winning trumpeter. They say they are using music to help their son heal from this incident junior wrote a song called unjustified times and he recorded it with friends while he played the drums cat. I'd like to know how he's doing when i went to hug him from behind. Because i just i you know we. We have such a great relationship. He said mom. he tends dot. He literally turns up said mom. Can i ask you not to do it. I can't. I can't why did he ask you not to do that. Because this young lady which i will not say her name. She does not deserve this young lady blinds in the hotel. He keeps on asking the question. Why right widely you know. I wouldn't steal anything. I didn't know her. Why as a mother to have the answer that question. It's tough to look in her being arrested. More than what it because the person who killed trayvon martin is free. The person who claimed emmett till is still alive. Things could have gone another way. What does justice look like for your family. At this point for the both of you justice i think the idea of justice. Just like the idea of the apology is so much more than just saying. I'm sorry because people can say. I'm sorry and it's empty. Justice has to do with change. Yeah my heart really went out to them because you can still feel the pain and still know that their son is still very shattered. They said he can't even look his phone anymore. Because there's so much information that comes this. He's in therapy. Family hasn't been therapy. And there's they're both still traumatized to still reeling from it. Ben crump represents a memo saying you know. They hope that the charges it will send a message that just because this woman who appear to be a white woman. She's now saying she's puerto rican was believed over the word of the people of the father and son who said look. We didn't do this and she's right. It could have been de-escalate on the tape. You can hear kion senior saying you know. Do the iphone feature to the iphone. Find my iphone feature. It was solved at right then and there well and if you lose your phone to you go up to some random person and attack them not intend to start doing that. I don't get it. There's there's so many layers of wrong here. In this case there are no winners. Here are nine. Okay so yeah i agree i agree with you. There's no winners in that situation but there's there's a lot of layers at just you know the whole situation so you know you're going to you even as a mixed person of which of course i am you know. Am i going to justify my actions by saying. Hey i i'm black or i'm native to you see what i'm saying. That's an essence where she was doing. Basically yeah you're absolutely correct and that's another another ploy of you know. The white supremacist ideology. While show some show. Some association with the person you attacked to make it look lease least racist a break. Hope they chart. I hope she's convicted period again in the piece. They said her case comes up in march. So whether or not the news is going to follow up on that or not but I hope i can remember too well. That's true i hope. She's convicted period. This is true but you know enough is enough. Enough is enough. She saw the boy she saw the phone in the young maintained and she went off the deep end and assumed some of the worst she found that looked like hers in the hands of a person of color and immediately use stole knife phone even even if the phone had the same case on everything else but the other thing that that was mentioned. I think at the end of the interview the interview with when i'm calling phone girl right. There is a feature in the remember this from the actual event footage okay. The kid's father said to her. Why don't you use my iphone now. Those of us that are iphone users. Dave you're not we have. I'm sure there's a feature like this on android phones but there's a there's a. There's a tracker software basis based on the cloud. And you can. You can literally get a sense. I want to say it's within fifty feet of where the phone is of. You know so you can certainly tell whether or not an iphone is inside a hotel or not. That's how accurate is okay. She said in the footage of the incident. No it's not. Well that's not his fault that's great. You're a twenty two year old. I'll call this young adult. That's your responsibility to turn it on his and not his approve and then she spent the rest of the interview trying to justify herself and still really couldn't bring herself to saying that she was wrong even with proven that she was wrong. Don't matter of the phone was in the hotel. The phone was in an uber. Ride doesn't matter. Matters is like you said brother. She flew off the handle accused a person of color. Or at least okay. Let's be fair a person who is not her color right okay. She was lashing. She was white passing right like me. Okay and accused him of that. I'd read in an article somewhere. That an uber driver found the phone in her car and took it back to the hotel correct. That's that's that's that's the account. I read his wa right so of course someone from the hotel is going to give her the phone. Yes uber drivers not going to stand around and wait to see if somebody comes by and says. Hey that's my phone. No they turned it over to the hotel. Because that's where they dropped her off at the hotel they see the phone and they say oh this must be the ladies found that just got out of my car so they go back to the hotel and give the hotel phone which they should have done so naturally the hotel staff is going to give her the phone rightful owner right. Yeah this was turned in you know. In most most major hotels. I've lost and found and it's usually controlled by hotel security so i hope she's convicted. That's all i have to say door. I hope i hope you're convicted. Lady enough is enough. Exactly enough is enough. Stop accusing people of color doing things that they haven't done just because of their skin color stopped doing it. It's cost too many people of color. Their lives is cost too many people of color other things. Stop freaking doing it. And if you're a karen. Karen take maybe thing back. There's no need to. Gop trying to have fun cascio long about exactly all right. It's time for in other news sir. Keeping with the theme of language keepers and elders. This title is from the principal chief of the cherokee nation in oklahoma chief. Chuck hoskins junior. Excuse me and the title is a celebration of cherokee celebrate planned and it's from the durban freeling language preservation act durban freeling louis named in cherokee culture people that have reached a certain level of respect our beloved ones and was one of the beloved individuals two hundred years ago. The article reads the brilliant statesman and inventor sequoia presented the cherokee celebrity to the cherokee nation. This year we're honoring the bicentennial of sequoias historic achievement. That brought widespread literacy to the tribe. Excuse me one second thank you. We remember him through. The gift of our language but few specifics are known about sequoias life historic history tells us that the that he first began. Excuse me working on his celebrate rewritten system in eighteen thousand nine at times. His work was misunderstood as witchcraft. Even it's family will said to grow weary of his. His obsessive work on the celebrity. Despite these obstacles sequoia pressed doug dodd ely forward with the help of his young daughter after twelve years he perfected a system for reading and writing the cherokee language in eighteen twenty one. He demonstrated his invention to its skeptical cherokee audience. He won them over by writing messages to his daughter using syllabi in having her respond back in kind. The cherokee nation quickly adopted sequoia cillari as our official written language by eighteen twelve. Much of the bible. Numerous hams and other literature had been translated into cherokee. The new system was so easy for cherokee speakers to learn that cherokee nation soon achieved one of the highest literacy rates. In the world the cherokee national council purchased a printing press and commission to set of cherokee type paving the way for the publication of the cherokee phoenix. The first bilingual native american newspaper phoenix was published for cherokees but also widely spread across the neighbouring us and in europe religious pamphlets educational materials and legal documents including cherokee laws were now being printed in cherokee celebrate. And there's a little bit more to this article but it is something that i'm glad chief hoskins a one a to initiate because it shows a commitment to the continuation of language preservation and there is a lot of work the cherokee nation as well as the eastern ben in the kyoto tribe of cherokee use are doing to preserve the cherokee language. And i'm glad to see it. Because we are losing national treasures are language keepers as well do this. Pandemic and just natural mortality. So thank you chief and thank you for all of the other chiefs and and those who are putting forth this effort to make this happen. I hope it's a wonderful year long celebration to them for sure. Thank you thank you. Thank you any comments. No other than you know. The the importance is paramount. Right in in any time that we can that we can do that. In you know. I as i see it feels like the farther east north and east you go. The the deeper. The damage has been done relevant to loss of language correct and quite frankly. It's a lot of that has to do with the way the country was ruled out. I'm not saying that there wasn't language lost in in you know in in the south in western tribes because we certainly has been but we have instances where You know not only not only where we told. We cannot speak our our our original languages but we were killed on site for doing so spoiled documented in in colonial colonial texts and then other things were imposed later If we if. If if i was if i was an indigenous Indentured servant for example peak white indentured servant and. I was caught speaking my language. If i wasn't put to death. My owner got fined severely allowing me to speak my language situations. Like that were were well documented. So so so so. It's now used the word paramount earlier of trying to in any way possible Reclaiming said language are place names Maps need to be changed that reflect. Our place names with our language names. The these are all very very important and so Yeah i guess a a lever. that could some of. It's kind of tough to think about but at the same time you know it's got to be said and it's got to be done here okay. i guess this is our last article yom roller. It lasts article for this episode. You guys and thank you again very very much. But before. I go into this before. I forget Dave mentioned earlier he says whoever created the karen song 'cause i neglected and i didn't do it last week and i and i almost forgot to do this week. But it's created by a gentleman goes by the name of day by ready. Dave dave is the artist's name white guy this song it's like So so so. I just wanted to give him a shout-out and i'll make sure i link to the song itself in which is actually available in spotify. You can find it there. Okay the The last article here. The title reads comment on insurrection. Attempt at the nation's capital says by terry rambler Who is the chairman of the san carlos apache tribe this was published through indians. Dot com New york oh here goes on to say the violent assault on the us capital january. Sixth was at best. A display of the of unfettered privilege More troubling was that terrorist attempt to take over. The capital was the first insurrection since the civil war individually the mob of lawless obstructive. Excuse me individually the mob was lawless obstructive and dangerous collectively. This mob was an unchecked threat to the foundation of our nation's democracy and an affront to all american citizens the belief held by so many of us at the peaceful democratic transition of power will happen without fail which shattered as we watch the hordes of delusional criminals entering the capitol grounds broke windows. Looted assaulted police officers. One police officer died in the mob assault. The mob threatened elected officials were attempting to do their congressional duty and certifying. The twenty twenty presidential election results members of congress were ushered to safety in the midst of debating. the legitimacy of arizona's electors as arizonian. I find this not just offensive but damaging. The mob was attacking my vote. The mob was attacking the vote of my neighbors and record in record numbers of tribal members. That voted whether you agree with the outcome of not. Those electors represent the legitimate outcome of the presidential election in arizona. Pasta second on what he just said about the native vote because that is true regardless if we agree with it or not what our position in terms of our involvement in the electoral process in this country because there there are some of us who question if we should be involved in that or not. Needless to say they are exercising their sovereign power whether we want to agree with it or not or how we have obtained our sovereign power and how we are fighting to fully have it. Because we don't in this country but what you've heard on the news at nauseam. I'm sure i'm just going to repeat a little bit of it here. Trump did exercise all his avenues. All of his legal means to prove or have opportunity to prove that the election was rigged failed. He failed in this sense. No evidence twice in the supreme court. They told him by the very people that he put in that those seats thinking cleverly that they were going to just blindly side with him. No there was no evidence you lose so when they stormed the capital like a chairman is saying they were in fact Also denying or attempting to deny voters rights tribal and otherwise back to the article. He says incredibly the mob was incited by the lies. Issued by press You can't even say the word. Donald j trump and his enablers that the election was stolen by vast conspiracy of rats. George sorros than swail and even the clinton foundation it was of no consequence that over sixty courts including the united states supreme court and even attorney general william bar found that. No-one share a rash. Found no shred of evidence to support the lies. There was no question why this election occurred. The sitting united states president himself has encouraged and supported the mob to rise up and fight the lies. He spews and the company he keeps has directly resulted in this attempted coup. He must not be allowed to hold that office one day longer. Trump must be removed and he must be removed immediately either through the twenty fifth amendment or through the impeachment process. Trump can also resign and help save american lives. That's a strong statement because true trump's currency as always been one of hate an unfounded conspiracies a hate largely directed at people of color whether native american or african descent mexican american or asian. We continue to be on the receiving end of double standards and imbalanced justice. Our history has been one of victims of aggression genocide untold violence and de facto lynching simply because of our appearance. But we know too well that hate serves only to destroy countries hate does not make a country. Great america must reconcile itself in our democracy and our country is to survive. If our country is to survive white supremacists neo. Nazis proud boys and those surrounding themselves with the confederate flag are not patriots they are un-american need not re- respect our laws are courts constitution while they may have found a welcome home in trump's corrupt administration. America has spoken in favor of integrity. Honesty and truth truth is not something that can be debated. there are not two truths. There can only be one. I appeal to leaders in washington to stand for what's right and to stand up for our nation. The insurrection of january six shows us that we have a great amount of work to do to address racism to address inequality and to address the abuse of power. We can face these challenges together but it starts with the truth. If something like this happened on our reservation it would play out like this. A candidate loses the election. For the chairman's position would incite our voters to to say the election was illegal as that unsuccessful candidate should have won the unsuccessful candidate would spread lies and tell our voters to storm arch council chambers and stop our council from certifying the election results. They would try to prevent the duly elected chairman from taking office. The candidate would ask council members to not vote for the duly elected chairman. And instead ask the council members to vote for the unsuccessful candidate as the chairman is would surely take the constitutional power away from our voters and place. It in the hands of our council members. To seek to start selecting chairman's position. This is exactly what is happening in america right now we all have to stand up for the sacredness of our vote. Ramos fight for the soul of our country. We must stand strong for our constitution and rules of law. We owe it to our children grandchildren and those not yet born again here. It says terry rambler who wrote this has served as chairman of the san carlos apache tribes since twenty ten. He previously served as chairman of the arizona indian gaming association and as president of the intertribal council for arizona. Him for his words stink. You can get behind most of that but we have. We still have to keep an eye on on history though. Anyway we we. We speak on the show often about the fact that indigenous people every time there's an administration change we have we ain't essence. Have to start over right and so when when when when does legacy legislation in favor of tribes begin that that's the point it doesn't exist. There isn't any necessarily any leg- legislation that we can build upon. We have starts and restarts now. Sure we have the indian self determination act. We have the. We had the butchering the name. But the native american You know Religious rights act. we have niagara. We have a host of acts right at the federal level but have we expanded any of that every expanded any of that too grant ourselves more sovereign authority. I argue no. We have not so again. While i i support agree by and large what terry rambler just wrote. And that i read to you. I said earlier. My attention is now being shifted to the current administration. Coming in the fight hasn't stopped the fight continues just because we're changing the guard doesn't mean magically everything is better for indigenous people and people of color in general got a lot of work to do folks so i know there's probably people out there who can't can't we just have this win yes by all means i give you a month i give a month and then then i'm going to start picking apart legislation as soon as it starts getting approved. Do copy a commercial so quick room to chat. I'm confirmed sources. Report that eric trump was so depressed about the family. Failure locked himself inside a close garage for over an iron. With this tesla. Running guys say eric trump. And you just start laughing. Uk have you guys ever watched. Stephen colbert show what the watch him do. Don wash him. Eric trump impression. You does this weird thing with his lip it. it's like. He creates a. I don't know how to describe it but you know it makes his teeth power almost pop out of his head and he's like love me. I can't do his wife looking at those. Two boys reminds me of that cartoon butthead in but here whatever it's called on venus but originally name is and all you'll need to get that right up much to do that impression. Comey much. I can tell you to watch your brother. Oh yes absolutely. I have the entire somewhere dvd. I'd like every episode ever ever produced. You can tell. I don't have a life you can tell well my bag walking around going up but much fun all right. Yeah bags you guys so we appreciate all of you guys listening ever so much. Where's my god. Oh my god in a strange mood but yes we thank you very what happened here. Turn it on gonna play us out. I no sound will all right. Thank you guys thank you thank you thank you ever so much. We appreciate you listening. Just the thing i mean. That's half the battle right even if you don't agree with us that's the other thing too. Many don't especially especially native people that supported trump definitely don't agree with us but you listened and we thank you for that and that's half the battle. It really really is needed so again. If you wanna comment anything you heard on this episode or any past episodes. Just email hosts with an s. that native opinion dot com. You can also leave us. Voicemails eight six zero eight hundred five nine five eight six zero eight hundred five five nine five. My name is michael. Kicking bear. I m e citizen of the mashantucket pequot tribal nation here in connecticut. The guy over there. He is david gray. Allah citizen of the cherokee tribe alabama. Thank you all for joining ins- for another live episode. And thank you for listening in on the wednesday edition this fully. Don't get wednesdays take everybody bye bye.
Giving thanks, the Duwamish way
"This is k. u. o. w. I'm kim album. Many of us will sit down to turkey. Stuffing and traditional side dishes at our thanksgiving meals but one seattle man is incorporating pacific northwest indigenous foods to tell the story of the duwamish people. Kyw's ruby delina. That's more insight. The kitchen of the duwamish longhouse in west seattle. Cecile hansen has just put a piece of dough into the fryer. David lee with kitchen tongsan hand weights for his cheer corner. You know what okay. I can still browning a little bit of the edges. Here you tell me. When cancelled gives the go ahead and leave flips the do before long he fishes it out of the friar combine strips of fry brad into regular stuck in describing the special thanksgiving meal. They're preparing this week and then was a blend of familiar traditional dishes. In addition indigenous foods through wild salmon clam chowder sydell head and kale salad with berry salal dressing and the stuffing will be tossed with fried bread. I never heard of it. White man's way pick. Yeah here we go. Well i've ever done this before. Leeann hinson our friends and collaborators in this holiday feast henson is chairwoman of the duwamish tribe. Lee is founder of the food. Circle foundation a nonprofit focusing on food for change. I'm doing this for us. And when i say us i mean. My european remind non-native friends and community members because we need to recognize the history of this city. He says the thanksgiving story often focuses on the white settlers. The part involving the natives overlooked that the newcomers wouldn't have survived without the help and hospitality of their host. The duwamish tribe the duwamish where the first indigenous people here before anybody showed up in seattle. Cecile hansen is the great great grand niece of chief seattle. The city's namesake and the tribal leader. Who welcomed the early settlers when it comes to food. The tribe relied on the land and the waters for sustenance. They were very blessed to know how to go out and to gather and to fish and to hunt and somebody. Must've tom long long time ago. How to prepare their meals. The settlers occupied the land in short time changed the communities under the point elliott treaty. The duwamish tribe gave up their homeland much of king county in return. They were promised their reservations and guaranteed fishing and hunting rights but they were empty promises for decades. The tribes struggled to get federal recognition. Finally bill clinton recognize them on the eve of his departure and the next day. George w bush Revoke that recognition tripe has appealed multiple times but without success there about six hundred and ruled members without federal recognition the tribe lax to funding and services. It's the story. Lee wants to share when people there thanksgiving meal. What's interesting about. The myth of thanksgiving is that it has native element to it and yet we don't really celebrate it or acknowledge it especially what happened afterwards without a reservation or land one. Physical reminder of the tribes presence is the long house it was completed in two thousand nine across the street from what used to be one of the largest villages along the duwamish river ruby. Delina kiro w news.
Washed Away: The TikTok Suitcase Murders
"A quick word before we jump in this is an ongoing investigation and the opinions of the hosts and interviewees. Our opinions not facts. Everyone is Presumed Innocent, unless proven otherwise in a court of law movie theaters and bowling alleys were closed restaurants offering takeout only and nightlife was non-existent. The summer of 2020 has been cemented in our minds as a time of package MC fear loneliness and never-ending boredom. It's not surprising that it's also the time when it new app purchasing unexpected Adventures right in your own backyard became wildly popular, especially with the younger crowd. Waiver patines decided to explore Alki Beach a typical Pacific Coast Town on the west side of Seattle small shops and Mom and Pop restaurant slime the sidewalk. It's it's opposite of sandy beach on the Pacific Ocean. It was a sunny day in June when the teens headed out looking for a random GPS coordinate not knowing what they might find. And of course, they brought their cell phones with them to record their adventure guys, we found when they spotted a strong case in the water that had gotten stuck on a large pile of rocks. They wondered what was inside as they got closer the stench of the contents nearly made them turn around off their curiosity got the better of them. They just had to open it to see what was in there. So she's going to please so we can't see if it's actually a dead body or it's just the cops thought. It was a prank, but this was dead. Anything but a laughing matter the remains of a young couple dismembered tossed away like trash but who were they and who was the monster who could have done such a thing. You can work yourself up into a quite a passion when it comes down to actually taking a human body and putting it into pieces. If you do have to be a person lacks the ability to empathize on any kind of level. I'm Kim Shepherd with Carolinas Oreo and this is the scene of the crime. So for those of you not familiar with Seattle if the Space Needle is the Crown Jewel West Seattle's Alki Point would be one of those glittering side Jewel gem have used such a beautiful neighborhood. It's 12 miles give or take from downtown Seattle. And if you live in or around Seattle, it's just a go to place no matter what age you are and you can imagine roller skaters bikers Runners Walkers and in the backdrop, you see our famous, you know, green and white fairies going back and forth the Olympic mountains, so it's really a beautiful beautiful place when I was in high school. One of the highlights was going cruising on Alki Beach. Totally see you doing that. Did you have a convertible? I have you know, what we had multiple cars say that I should have had my late 80s hairstyle with like, but anyway, you get the picture. So what the duwamish head which is the northernmost point of West Seattle. That's where these kids found. That black suitcase amongst all these cuz even though it's during the pandemic that's one of the places you can still walk around. It's open there's lots of people so it wasn't like it was this place that nobody knew about very much a hive of activity even in the midst of the pandemic. Yeah. So this crime that we're covering for this episode is still being investigated so we weren't able to talk to any detectives who are currently off the case cuz they weren't able to talk with us, but we did get a lot of details from probable cause statements and other police and court records and this is one of those viral stories that caught the eye of people all over the country in large part because of how the victims were discovered. So this started on June 19th, these teens found a black suitcase at the edge of the water of Alki Beach. It had actually washed up onto a really big dark Boulders, like what you would see near peers to shore up and Define the coastline. There's this suitcase it's just sitting there and as they get close to it, they notice this unblock. Believably bad odor one of the teens is recording on his phone while the other team climbs down to see what's inside and when she unzips the suitcase and flips open the cover. There's a black trash bag that is completely taking up the suitcase clearly has something inside of it, but this isn't just a typical trash bag. It's what looks like one of those extra durable construction-grade bags and the odor at this point becomes completely overwhelming. So the students decide that rather than trying open the garbage bag themselves. They're going to call the police. They are worried about what might be in there. Well and I watch the video too. It's like a fun adventure. They're literally like, okay. It's tick tock let's let's have fun. I mean I can see any, you know couple of teens doing this thinking this is kind of okay, we're going to see that there's going to be garbage in and then it takes such a turn that it's like this shit just got real guys off. We open it open it distinct thought. Oh, okay, so she's calling the police so we can see if it's actually a dead body or it's just food but here's the crime scene. So that was the video that they posted to Tik Tok later on Thursday. We already know inside that suitcase was something much worse than old food, but you might be wondering what led the teens to that spot in the first place. I mean it was at Alki which is a popular area off the spot on the rocks that they climbed down to is not some place that anyone would normally go. Apparently they were using an app called random Nautica the website for the app describes it as the world wage. First Quantum Leap generated choose-your-own-adventure reality game it encourages users to explore the world. You never knew existed. So the app gives users known as random knots randomly-generated GPS coordinates. I was still a little bit unclear about like what exactly does that mean? And how do they get those coordinates? I mean, it sounds like geocaching but it's not g. Okay. It's geocaching 3.0. Okay. So, of course the best place I could think of to find answers about this new app was Tik Tok and Ariel Casey explains how the app works. If you like to be spoofs. Listen Rando nodding. It's an app you download. It's called random. What is it? Brand-new not gives you qrps Quantum random Point what are quantum random points fish? Let me explain that to you want some random thoughts are high points of energy and power near you attractors have a lot of energy voids don't have as much if you really want to get spooked you go to a tractors this app gives you the location of attractors and voids and then you go there is an entire birth. Reddit where people explain the weird stuff that happens at these points people report Paranormal Activity leaving the simulation of reality feeling like you're tripping on drugs Spiritual Awakening, but the number one thing reported that they took the phenomenon because it can't be explained if the universe will manifest whatever you want. So they say before you go to this point think of something really hard that you want. So for example, people report imagining finding something that will put their mind at peace looking at coordinates from random Nautica, then finding a butterfly on a buttercup at the spot indicated or maybe they'll be imagining exploring something spooky coordinates will take them to the ruins of an old abandoned cabin. These are examples that are actually on the random Nautica website that have been shared by users. Do we know what these Adventure Seekers were looking for? Because that would be really creepy if they were looking for spooky Adventure. I don't know what they had in mind what they were hoping to manifest with this adventure. I mean, it seems like they were in a good mood. I'm Hear them in the video They're laughing and joking around and but they didn't find butterflies know something much worse. Yeah, we don't know what they were looking for. But the teens who found the suitcase certainly found something much more gruesome than anything. They could have imagined the apps founder Joshua l'angleterre told Inside Edition that they had no idea what the teens would find when those coordinates were generated wage by the system. I was shocked and surprised we reached out to the teens and made sure that they were okay and let them know that that wasn't what we intended. It's an unfortunate coincidence. Do you believe in this idea of like manifesting your intentions? I think this is an incredible twist to the story that I had no idea Kim. You have stopped me. Like I know that this page this back story. I thought they were just doing like hey Tik Tok, you know, I didn't realize that there was this specific app to manifest but in terms of do I believe in manifesting I totally do wage In a certain context like I think that if we look at it from the glass is half empty first. I think most of us can agree that if you are constantly negative and down in the dumps, you are going to manifest lack of energy and and and people right but the glass is half-full in the reverse. If you look at it as a law of attraction and positive energy excitement hard work. I believe are the building blocks of this money investing in your life, but it's not just sitting there thinking I want this to happen. I want this to happen. I want this to happen. It has to be a combination of your thinking and your actions. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But in this particular case, I think it's just a strange coincidence sounds like it. So these teams called Seattle police about this foul-smelling suitcase that they'd found on the shoreline. But of course the report was not taken seriously. I mean, you know, they call up and say hey we found the suitcase on the shore and it smells really bad. It took Seattle Police over an hour and half to even respond to check it out when they fight. Did arrive the teens were gone. And so was that full plastic bag? All they found was the black suitcase sitting on the Rocks the top flipped open but nothing inside of it. So I scammed the water and they noticed what looked like a plastic bag floating just off the shore and what might be a human torso partially peeking out of it. So wait a second. So the suitcase boss was gone then was suitcase was still there, but the contents of the suitcase were no longer there. Apparently the water had washed them out because the teens had opened the suitcase left it open and the water had come up and taken the bag out. Okay, so it had been quite a quite a bit of time before the cops got there because yeah, I'd had basically done and washed washed it out. Okay. So the Harbour Bridge then had to be called out to help them retrieve the plastic bag that was out in the water and as they're waiting for the boat to arrive. The officers are looking around still to see if there's any other evidence or anything and they spot a black duffel bag wage. Also been stuck on some rocks about fifty yards to the east of where the suitcase had been found that was right on the edge of the water as well. And the officers were using a log to try and coax the duffel bag closer to them when it's hooker. Hey, could you help me the log? I need to grab this thing here and then a smaller white trash bag apparently floated out of a hole in the side of the duffel bag and as it's floating away, they noticed what looked like a human foot. Oh my God looking out of that bag. I just I can't imagine like there's bags in both parts. Just well, you know, what's interesting is as this case was unfolding. I actually had one of you know a source in in law enforcement reach out to me and say we found and this was days days later. We found another bag and I will get there. Okay, just wait now I can only imagine what it would take to make this kind of Discovery what that would be like so we decided to contract Jennifer Shen to get her Insight. She is not only a forensic scientist but also former director of the San Diego Police Department's crime lab and she says she would categorize this as a body dump and she said these kinds of cases are inherently difficult to solve it difficult for investigators because you you have the victim is located somewhere that's different than the scene of the crime and because it's different from the scene of the crime. It doesn't have some of the evidence that you might be looking for in order to identify who the killer might be. So that that makes it more difficult. That means bodies been moved some of the the information on the body like Rigamortis or the the lividity there's some sort of positional information you can get if the body is left where the victims guilt. So all of that goes out the window with the body jump and hear you do have however other information that you might look for. How does the bags get to the body of water where they're tired off? For their shoe prints and we traced the bags themselves. I mean if you have a suspect in mind does anyone know that they had these kind of suitcases or these kind of bags. So some of their things you can do off and then you can look for evidence on the containers themselves fingerprints DNA hairs fibers. So there are things you can do is just makes it a lot harder. Yeah Seattle police were documenting this box. I'm seeing the corner was called out they were able to determine that the remains found in the suitcase and the duffel bag belonged to a man and a woman but it would take an autopsy and several days to identify them as twenty-seven-year-old Austin winner and 35 year old Jessica Lewis. Jessica's Aunt spoke with BBC news about the couple. They are just Inseparable, you know do the the good times and the hard times you got one you got the other and they were just in sync with each other like that. I want I want people to know who they were dead. Who they were they were good-hearted people at one time. She took care of hospice patients elderly patients just really thought was a natural at it. And apparently she was actually working at a hospice center when she was killed and wasn't she the mother of like for kids to she did have four children. It's unclear. If there are children were they were not apparently living with the couple so I'm not really sure any details about those kids. But yeah, I mean, it sounds like she had a pretty good-sized family according to the autopsy both Jessica and often were beaten and then shot to death the corner also noticed some grass and Feathers inside of Jessica's mouth. So they collected those as evidence shown says it's actually surprising how much evidence the corner was able to get from these remains considering where and how they were found the saltwater itself. I mean they were in bags in an enclosed container, but if you're not and the salt water bath And that means the fish get in the wildlife kids in and then there's a lot of damage that sent to the bodies which makes it hard to really understand what happened to your victims in this particular case. It's very clear off and dismembered that the medical examiner was also able to tell that they were beaten and shot. So that means supervise must have been a pretty good condition. So you would imagine that's because you're wrapped in the plastic off and in the secondary container that kept them sort of insulated from the ocean and the features in it the shortly after the autopsy the King County Sheriff's Office got a call about the discovery of more human remains as you were mentioning Carolyn these were found near a power station on the duwamish river not far from Alki. They also had feathers on them. So the coroner determined that these were most likely remains connected with the victims found on the shoreline in Alki 10 days after the remains were found detectives met with Austin's family to deliver the news. They learned that Austin and Jessica had been dating for over seven years and for the last eight months or so had been renting a room from a man in Burien that the family knew only is Mike and they told investigators a couple were afraid of Mike and said that they'd recently even been assaulted by some men who had come in to Mike's house. The men were reportedly armed with guns. They beat a Boston and demanded money from the couple detectives that Mike that they were rooming with was Michael Dudley. He's the sixty-two-year-old owner of that home in Burien the cops contacted him and he said he hadn't seen the couple in over a week. Mike said he had been calling their cell phone trying to make a plan to meet up and he couldn't get through to them Austin's father told detectives. He had recently gotten the home looking for a son and on one occasion. He ran into Mike who told him that the couple had in a hurry they left behind all their belongings even their clothing and as he was leaving Austin's dad said he saw a pile of clothing in a garbage can that looked suspicious dog? So investigators got a warrant to retrieve cell phone records for Jessica cell phone which the couple apparently shared the last transmission was from a cell tower on July 9th. That's ten days before the bodies were discovered. The tower at pinged off of was less than a mile from deadliest home. There was another witness who spoke with investigators who said that she had moved some of her belongings into deadlys home on the date of that last cell phone signal from the couple's phone and she told police that she noticed Dudley had what looked like defensive wounds on his body when she arrived at the house and he told me there was a room upstairs where she would be staying and so she went up to go look at it. And when she did she noticed there were heaps of clothing all over the floor and what looked like the the outline of a person underneath that clothing and she said she even saw what sort of looked like a bloody hand sticking out but it freaked her out so she kind of immediately turned around and left town. Didn't take a closer. Look she went downstairs and told Dudley would she saw and according to this witness? He laughed it off like it was a joke. And then he asked her if there was some place she needed to go for a while because I'm yeah, I got a little bit of a mess. I need to clean up when I read that in the the charging documents. I just I didn't even know what to kind of emotionally do with that because according to some of the pictures that I've seen just to set up how this house looked it was far from the road. There's a gate there. There's a huge yard. So it was very private and I can't imagine being at a place and seeing a body underneath with the hand sticking out. I would just want to get away as soon as possible. Maybe call the police, but the other thing is when you see something like that I can only imagine that she had to think this can't be real this can't be what I'm really seeing. I mean if in fact someone was murdered in this house is the guy going to leave the body underneath the pile of clothing for me to come find I mean, it just seems so long. Unrealistic, I think it comes down to the the her gut was probably telling her I think there's a body up there because I just saw hand and he has defensive wounds but this is so out of the realm of possible Right daily existence has that's like maybe I got it wrong. Maybe he has a sick sense of humor and it's like maybe it's I don't know. It's like it's tough to it's tough to take in fact. Well this obviously was more than enough evidence to get a search warrant for Dudley's home and inside police. Not only found bullet holes in the walls shell casings on the floor, but that room had been freshly cleaned and painted Shen says the crime scene made a clear that this was either a spur-of-the-moment murder or it was just committed by a very disorganized killer. I mean, I think what people don't realize now that you've done the killing part the disposal of the body part is very difficult and without a lot of planning and forethought there are all sorts of things off. You have to do that people don't think about until you're faced with it. You know, I saw that their room had been repainted where maybe some of this took place had been repainted but they still found bullet holes and bullets effects. I you can find blood in rooms that have been cleaned and repainted fairly easily. So what he did is he killed his people and his own environment. It appears where they could be traced to him in his home and people saw him doing parts of it. So it seems extremely disorganized after the fact so that leads you to believe that the whole thing was sort of a disco organized maybe more spur-of-the-moment situation where he hadn't thought at all the way through because he just did a very terrible job obviously and neighbors told police. They heard someone screaming, please don't do this and they also heard gunfire on the evening of June 9th. That's the last date of that cell phone ping. In fact, there's even a police report from that night. The neighbor called the cops wage. But the officers reported that they arrived at the home they knocked on the door. Nobody answered so they left. Yeah. I was actually talking to Jim Fuda who is the crime stopper isn't because it seems like on the face of it. Like how could they leave if they you know getting these 911 somebody heard a gunshot and fighting and how do you just leave and probable right and so he basically said that there is the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement to go into somebody's house but there are exigent circumstances that make an exception clearly when situations where you know law enforcement can a fire or destruction of evidence. So there there are certain things that supersede that requirement of having a warrant. But Jim said that in this case, they would have to verify that those screams they you know, they hit the screens have been called in and then they hear the screams themselves and then they can go so it's not enough for a witness to have heard. It has to be the officers themselves. Yeah the Officers Club. And there was no signs of Foul Play on the outside, right? So they made the right call in this case because they couldn't confirm there weren't any screens going on and honestly at the point that they arrived it was probably too late. Yeah something else. That's really interesting about. This is the coroner's report. It suggests that more than one person took part in this dismemberment in part because of just how much work there was too much to do in the fact that they were put in multiple bags. They were dropped in multiple bodies of water. The corner basically said like this was a lot of work it probably took more than one person to do this Shen says, she's not quite sure about that. Yeah a couple fives about that one is I thought it was an interesting claim to make I the medical examiner and I wonder when it actually goes to trial if she will be that specific and forthcoming with that kind of information because it's not easy on dismembered bodies to tell how many people dismember them. She was really saying that based upon the dog. You could tell that different implements were used and that different parts of the body appeared to be removed in different ways. It's a little bit of a stretch and I'm not a medical examiner. So I don't know but it's a little bit of a stretch to say that the multiple people were involved then because you're right to get other people to help you chop a bodies unless you have some sort of hold on them or unless they're involved in the crime also offer. That is a very difficult sell. I don't know how you do that unless you have some hold over them. You have some sort of they they are beholding to you in some way that's really significant because not many people can chop up bodies. I mean like even if you wanted to it's not something I think most people can stomach well and getting people to help and then being quiet. We haven't heard any confirmation to lead us to believe and and of course they're holding stuff. It's an active investigation, you know, everybody is Presumed Innocent, right? And Michael Dudley has denied having any part of this murder and dismemberment of Jacob. Austin but he did admit to police that he was arguing with a couple because they had failed to pay $1,500 in rent and remember because of rules put in place during the pandemic landlords can't just throw them out for failing to pay the rent. There's a moratorium on evictions in Washington state so clearly there is a motive here, but there's also more than that Dudley's ex-girlfriend marlys Gordon told KING5 news that he was abusive started to hit me and grabbed my hair and grabbed my head and my hair and he was screaming on the floor and hit my head into the the hardware slower and then he was joined me around just for me and my stuff out on his patio out out the door and on his patio and then came down and hit my head into the patio. And that was one hand. He was holding a gunner his other you know, they always say that about somebody that oh, you don't expect them. Is you know this doesn't seem like something I would do work, but you know, I'm the one thing that yeah, it's really sad. How often you hear that that you know, we never thought he could do this or she could do this and then you're the one saying well now we did it to me well and not only that but you look at the guys picture I've seen a news reports. I mean, he looks like you know Santa Claus I can see how people might just basing it on appearances alone think you know, this is a grandpa Rhino. Yeah, so Dudley was arrested and charged with assault for that attack in 2016. And it's not the only time that Dudley was accused of being abusive in June of 2018 a younger relative accused deadly of sexual abuse in her filing for a restraining order. She said that deadly forced her to share a bed with him from age 10 through 18. She said that he would make her watch him masturbate while he watched pornography and on several occasions drugged her and raped her sadly though her request for that restraining order was denied birth. Hide because the court said that well she had requested the order under the category of sexual abuse. The abuse should have been under the category of domestic violence. And for that reason I made the restraining order is an incredible. I'm I'm speechless. I mean, we hear these things and then there's you know, all the warning signs are going to come out about this guy. Oh and he also has convictions on record for DUI for having illegal weapons for other felonies. In other states. He has a long record despite all of this violence his ex says that she can't imagine wage oddly would be capable of dismembering someone and shed agrees. She says dismemberment really does take the crime of murder to a totally different level. You can work yourself up into a crime of passion and you can work yourself into some sort of righteous anger. You can work yourself up into believing somehow that you're you know doing the world a favor or all the things you could see him. Might get themselves there when it comes down to actually taking a human body and cutting it into pieces to dispose of it that takes someone with a really strong stomach wage. You have to be strong physically to do that because it's it's not that easy and you you really have to be able to remove your stuff hayirli from feeling any sympathy or empathy for those people and and you have to think that their families are going to find this out at some point. Right? And so the the lack of empathy for the family members of the victims is just extraordinary to me. So I think you do have to be a person who lacks the ability to feel and empathize on any kind of level and I think that's something that we feel really strongly suggest trying to find some kind of justice for the victims, but when you don't even have a whole body to bury Not has to be really really difficult. How do you find closure with that? Do we know if they found all the pieces for the you know for the family? I don't know if they found all of the pieces. I mean, we know that they found three different bags over two suitcases and the devil that had bags plastic bags within them that had body parts all of those remains belonged to the couple. We don't know whether or not the remains are complete whether there might be more bags out there somewhere. They haven't really specified that well in the circumstances leading up there in a desperate situation. And midst of the pandemic somebody heard one of the victims screaming, you know, just letting me leave to go through that then, you know the dismemberment on top of that. It's just dead, you know, she's got four kids. I mean, I think that that's one of the reasons why it hit so hard and and between the tiktok and you know, just the circumstances of like we're in the midst of this horrible. Situation and then this happens to these poor people. Like I've heard interviews from the family and they're just like, you know, we want our family members to get a fair Shake here, you know. Yeah, they were having some issues. It's like they didn't deserve this know for sure. Yeah, and the family also talked about that Tick Tock video and they feel conflicted about the fact that it was posted online a fact that it has not been taken down to this day. You can go to Tik Tok and watch this whole video and the reason that tictoc has given for not removing it is because they say you don't actually see any remains you see a plastic bag and that's as far as it goes the family on the other hand feels like yeah, but we all know what's in there. We know that's our loved ones and to see the way that they were found and the Laughing wage they say, you know, we don't hold anything against these teens they had no idea when they were recording themselves or even when they posted it they may not have had any idea what had been found because when they left the dog We're just setting up the crime scene tape. They didn't even you know, really know too much about what had been found by the time they posted that video and so the family is like, you know, the teens our kids gain anything against them but they they are a little bit upset with Tick Tock the app that it's still posted. Yeah. I wonder if there's going to be some future litigation there because obviously if they're not taking it down, you know, the family could have a choice to say. Hey we want this taken down and we could this could be some kind of landmark case to say what is okay to leave up and what what needs to be taken down. I mean in Tic Tacs pretty liberal and what they allow people to post I think as he realized, you know, they they pretty much take a hands-off approach unless it's absolutely necessary and in their statement, they basically say because there were no remains actually shown in the video. This doesn't mean a standard of it must be taken down. Yeah. And another thing is that whoever did this was so trying to get away with it was so, you know, the the the parts were found all over the place. And he's sealed that evidence inside, you know, that that could have been some of his you know undoing because they could find you know evidence because he made sure that you know, he didn't want that stuff coming out. I'm really curious about the feathers that were found because they never really explained where those came from. They they use them to link the two different discoveries of the bodies and two different places. So they use those to link those together. But at the same time, you know, I do wonder about was there a pillow somehow involved baby or where did the feathers come from? Yeah. I'm sure all these things will will definitely come out the deadly is in the county jail right now. He is facing murder charges bail has been set at 5 million dollars. This case has not gone to trial yet. But we do know that deadly is denying that he had anything to do with the murders off if you haven't already don't forget to hit that subscribe button leave us a review and share with your friends. You can also find out a lot more about all of the cases that we cover at scene of the crime podcast off. I'm Kim Shepherd with Carolinas Oreo and this is the scene of the crime.
Episode 98: Never Alone
"Hey, there constant listener just one short announcement before today's story begins the second season of the Lord TV show on Amazon. Prime video will premiere later this week on October nineteenth, the season is more intense and much more intimate than last year's and that's got a lot of people already buzzing about the show. You can swing over to Amazon dot com slash Lor right now and watch the full bloody trailer for yourself and then set your clock for Friday, October nineteenth. When you can watch all six episodes of the brand new season. Oh, and thanks for loving this podcast enough to make something as amazing as a TV show happened in the first place. Your support is noticed, and your love is felt, and I'm glad for both. And now on with the show. He had wanted to escape the throng of busy New England, and it's hard to blame him. In fact, when he moved west in eighteen seventy four, he wasn't alone. Countless others made the same decision to leave it all behind and build a new life as far from the east coast as they could. And many of these settlers found themselves in the Pacific northwest. Joshua arrived when Seattle was just a sawmill town, still an infants compared to the great cities of east despite that it was still a bit too crowded for his taste. So instead of settling down with all the others, he states claim to a plot of land to the west of town outwear there were more trees than people, but the stories tell us that Joshua wasn't the most fortunate of settlers on more than one occasion. He would pay a visit to his closest neighbours, arriving just after sundown with a panic expression on his face, asking for shelter for the night. After a few of these visits, the neighbors eventually convince Joshua to explain what has troubles were. His answer was simple. Ghosts every night he claimed he was being visited by invisible spirits sounds in the rafters of his cabin or footsteps outside his front door. He told them he could hear voices in his house and it had all become too much to deal with alone. The legend goes on to tell us that those neighbors eventually notice that Joshua had stopped coming around and after a while, they decided to go find out why when they stepped inside his little house down the road, they were shocked to find Joshua's body in a heap on the floor, cold and dead. His face painted with an expression of utter horror. It turns out history might hold an answer to the mystery Joshua's land was secluded. Sure, but it was also sacred. In fact, the location of his new cabin had long been used by the local native Americans as a burial ground. Some believe that the residents there were disturbed by his arrival disturbed enough to make his life living nightmare. That's the trouble with history. It's a deep dark soil that's spilled with everything. A city needs to grow culture and events. Their act like nutrients helping to move a place forward, allowing it to thrive and spread history provides every city with roots. Most places though have something else something less appealing but no less memorable because history is also filled with tragedy and suffering and pain, and Joshua Winfield story teaches us anything. It's that there's darkness buried beneath the streets of Seattle. And if the stories are true, it's never really gone away. I'm Erin minke and this is Lor. Seattle is a relatively young metropolis compared to other parts of America. The descendants of the pilgrims had lived in their Massachusetts community of Plymouth for nearly two centuries before George Vancouver sailed into the Puget Sound in seventeen ninety two. He became the first European to visit the land that would one day be home to the city. We know today, but it would take another six decades before settlers decided to give the land there try when they arrived in eighteen fifty one. They were led by a man named Arthur Denny. But of course they weren't the first people to live there. In fact, archaeologists believe that humans have lived along Puget Sound for at least four thousand years when Denny and his group of settlers arrived. The native American people known as the Duwamish were already there. And for a brief moment, it seems that these two distinct cultures were going to get along instead land got in the way. The US government had begun to offer settlers free plots of land if they would transplant themselves to the northwest. In fact, each person had three hundred twenty acres of land waiting for them, free of charge and double that for married couples for the best of that land, the land that had already been cleared of trees and prepared for farming already belong to the native Americans. That never stopped white Europeans before though. So true to the rest of history around the country. Denny and his friends began to slowly take that land for themselves. At I do Amish people under the rule of chief Seattle were accommodating and generous, but that quickly changed those early prominent settlers men like Arthur, Denny Henry Yesler and doc Maynard. We're on such good terms with chief Seattle that they eventually named the settlement in his honor. But as the slow trickle of settlers transformed into a flood, the culture began to shift the newest of settlers weren't as friendly toward the Duwamish people and began to lobby their leadership for change. What happened next is one of the darkest marks on the history of the community there believing themselves to be morally culturally and intellectually superior to the native peoples. The settlers began to enact laws and regulations that limited their freedoms, Henry Yesler, and others warned the newcomers that restrictions like that would be taken as a declaration of war, but few listen to him. Sure enough in early eighteen fifty six Duwamish raiding party headed toward the town to reclaim what had been taken from them, the US naval vessel, the Decatur barred, the native Americans from the water and the battle for Seattle was brought to an end less than a decade later, the city passed an ordinance to prohibit all native people from its borders. While some people on both sides of the division chose to ignore the rule. It stayed on the books for many years and sadly, it wouldn't be the last of its kind in eighteen eighty six. When the arrival of the railroad brought an influx of hundreds of Chinese immigrants angry mobs drove them down to the docks and onto ships bound for San Francisco. Those same docks had already become central to the economy of Seattle, everything that happened in the community from the cutting of timber to the sawmills that reduced it to lumber, all of it ended up down by the water where ships waited to take it all away, all of that industry needed workers. And so the land south of Henry Yesler sawmill became a busy crowded. Unsanitary downtown. There are stories of disease and pestilence, filling in the narrow gaps between the cramped buildings of rats and sewage problems of makeshift homes built too close to the water. The entire district took on a sort of darkness broken here and there by the red lights used by its inhabitants. In fact, looking down toward the docks at night visitors were so struck by the red glow that they began to call that part of town. The lava beds then on June sixth, the eighteen eighty nine. That metaphor became a little too accurate. It. That's the day fire broke out in the basement workshop of a cabinet maker named Victor clermont's, fueled by the glue and wood shavings that filled his space. The blaze quickly expanded outward as the story goes. The shop above his was a paint store filled with highly flammable chemicals and across the street was a massive warehouse with hundreds of cases of whiskey and to this the fact that the city hadn't seen rain in a very long time and they had the perfect recipe for disaster less than an hour later, the fire had spread to cover multiple blocks of the downtown area feeding off the wooden structures that line the streets. When it was finally over nearly three dozen blocks of the city, had been burned to the ground. Businesses and homes were gone and the shipping industry ground to a halt nearly forty years of downtown growth had been reduced to ask in a single day. Seattle would rebuild, but in the process, they would make a unique decision rather than removing the darkness of the past to start fresh with a clean slate. They decided to do something dangerous. They would rebuild their lives right. On top of the past. Seattle's great fire of eighteen eighty nine is something of an anomaly in American history. Yes. Many other cities have experienced their own devastating fires, but an almost all of those cases. It was the fire that created the tragedy, a loss of lives. On a grand scale, always has a way of casting shadows across the rest of a city's history. But Seattle was different. Not a single casualty was reported in the aftermath of the fire. So all the loss of homes and businesses was tremendous. There was no cloud of grief or loss hanging over the survivors. They had been kicked to the ground but had the hope to stand back up and rebuild. And that's where things get interesting because the city planners politicians saw the charred remains of the city as their chance to improve Seattle. They decided to elevate the entire downtown above the waterline, a full story higher than the previous buildings rather than clear the ground and start from scratch. They chose to simply build on top of the wreckage. Tons of earth gathered from the eastern edges of the city were hauled in and used to fill in the streets and spaces between the remaining buildings. Archways where built over the old sidewalks ladders were installed to allow customers to climb down to the few remaining businesses that had survived the fire when they were done, they had built a new downtown on top of the old one without destroying what was beneath. This new Seattle underground was quickly condemned by city officials, making it clear that no one was supposed to live and work there. But humans have a knack for disobeying rules that are a bit too inconvenient. Instead those dark spaces and tunnels became home to the less savory portions of the city's economic life, gambling, and prostitution above it. All. Of course, Seattle continued to grow in the decade that followed waves of prospectors pass through on their way north to Alaska and British Columbia seeking their fortunes in the rivers and minds of the Yukon when they struck it rich, they would pass back through Seattle spending their fortune on everything the city had to offer for many. It was all about investment. Large quantities of gold bullion were stored in Bank vaults where it awaited purchased by the US government. And those same banks figured out a system for advancing money to those prospectors to tide them. Over until the sale through which meant that Seattle was flush with rough men untethered to the responsibilities of family or employment and with pockets full of cash. And they knew just outta spend it. Where there is demand enterprising. Individuals always seem to step forward and help in those early years. Number of brothels and gambling. Joints were set up and they made their owners lots and lots of money, but the most powerful of them all was Lou gram and Lou was unlike any of the others for one simple reason Lou was she was actually a German immigrant named Dorothea George Jean Emily Oben, but there in Seattle, she was just the Queen while others were running filthy disease, ridden dens of prostitution Lou aimed for the upscale market. And it worked so well that her clientele included not just traveling prospectors with cash burn, but also powerful local city officials. In the aftermath of the fire. Lou Graham decided to put her immense fortune to work and built a massive new home for her empire. But it wasn't just money that flowed into her hands operating network of brothels that serve the city's elite also earned her influence and access all of a sudden she was more than wealthy. She was powerful. Time Lou Graham died in nineteen Ninety-three she had become the richest woman in America, but she also died with no husband or children to inherit that fortune. So she willed it to her relatives back in Germany, the city of Seattle didn't care for that decision, though. Her wealth had been gleaned from the community there and they felt that it should stay instead, they ignored her will and use the money to fund the city's public school system past, even the darker bits of it would continue to have an influence over the present and nowhere else is that more evident today than the darkness of the underground. Because while no one lives there anymore, it's clearly inhabited by something something born of the past and reluctant to leave. Today, visitors to Seattle can take guided tours of the underground and literally stand on the walkways that were used by pedestrians before the fire of eighteen eighty nine. But along with views of long forgotten buildings, many visitors have experienced a closer brush with the past. Some people you see claim to have seen ghosts. Many stories are centered around the pub built by doc Maynard in the early days of the city, a space that is now located beneath the street along pioneer square. It's been home to gambling den a large brothel and countless bars. People who have visited the space claim to have noticed the overwhelming scent of alcohol as well as objects that move on their own and a spirit that has interacted with tourists. In another underground location visitors to an abandoned Bank have seen an elderly man in nineteenth century clothing standing outside. His appearance has been so powerful and realistic that most tourists have Sumed. He's just an actor, helping the tour company with their performance buddy often vanishes before anyone can speak with him. Whether it's the distant sound of an old piano or the echo of spirited laughter and loud conversation. The spaces beneath the streets of Seattle seemed to be home to more than just the remnants of another age. The past as is so often the case as refused to fade away. One of the oldest neighborhoods in Seattle is actually a short distance away from the new downtown and it's dark underground. The Georgetown neighborhood sits on the eastern banks of the Duwamish river. Nine is filled with old homes and older stories, and the most prominent of them is about the castle in the heyday of prostitution and gambling. One of the busiest hotspots in pioneer square was the central saloon, which was a good thing for the man who built the place Peter Gesner because the entire enterprise had been a gamble. But then again, gambling was something that Peter was very, very good at. That's how he started out in the late eighteen hundreds while the early settlers of Seattle folks like Arthur Denny and doc Maynard at gambled their lives on a fresh start in a new place. Peter gassner was the more typical kind of gambler. He took advantage of the many gambling dens manage to beat. The more than they beat him. In fact, by nineteen o one Peter had enough money to buy one of the downtown businesses that competed with doc Maynard's pub. It was a building in pioneer square that house, the Watson brothers, famous restaurant on the ground level and a hotel on the floors above Peter, combine those two businesses into one that he called the central saloon and it's still there by the way, and it's been a powerful music venue for decades. At fact, in the nineteen eighties, the central was the launch pad for a number of bands that would go on to transform the music scene forever. Soundgarden mud, Honey, and green river all called the central, their home and true to the spirit of Seattle. Pearl Jam was a ban rebuilt from the ashes of mother love bone and they're still going strong today. Buying the tavern was gamble for Gessler, but quickly paid off build with all of the vices that Seattle was known for a central was always busy. And that meant lots and lots of profit. It win. There was enough cash in the Bank Peter decided to use it to build dream home for his young bride. Lizzy. What he built was a massive, five thousand square foot mansion, complete with a terrific high ceilings in every room, a wide wrap around porch and an indoor theatre when it was completed in nineteen o two Peter and Lizzy moved in and began to set up their new life inside those spacious rooms tragedy was right behind them and it moved in a short while later. Now, there are two versions of how this tragedy played out. There are some who think that when Peter discovered that Lizzie was cheating on him with another local businessman that he kicked her out and converted the enormous house over to become yet another brothel and gambling den. It was a reaction fueled by grief and spite and reflection of his tortured soul. Others though think the governor's Lockhead just finally run out and his empire was faltering opening. His dream home up as a palace of vice was the only thing he could think of to Saint his business. Either way, though the house became something very different than Peter had intended. And perhaps that's what led to the next chapter of his story. A year after the transformation Peter was found dead inside his Georgetown mansion. They say his body was found in one of the second story bedrooms, and that is tongue and lips showed signs of poisoning from drinking carbonic acid. Most believe it was suicide. Some have wondered if his estranged wife Lizzie might have had a hand in his death. That's because months after Peter gassner was in the grave Lizzie and her new husband moved into the castle that he had built for her setting off a wave of rumors throughout the neighborhood. All of that pain and tragedy seems to have stuck around two in the nineteen seventies. The house was purchased by Ray mcquade and Peter Peterson who said about restoring the house to its former glory. According to the story, the two men discovered a small room that had been covered up and forgotten bypassed owners inside the room. Felts unnaturally cold and noises could be heard throughout the house once outside the tiny room, though the noises stunt mcquaid and Peterson also reported finding a dead cat on their front porch. One day, assuming the animal had gotten into a fight and dragged itself to their porch before dying. They gave it a proper burial in their front yard the following day, though they were shocked to find the cat's body right back where they'd found it before in the center of their porch. In the decades since numerous visitors to the mansion have reported unusual activity. Some have felt cold waves wash over them as they move through the house while others have heard pounding on doors that have no one else on the other side. One overnight guests reported getting up to use the bathroom at one in the morning only to be shoved down the stairs by an invisible hand today, the house is in the hands of yet another loving family, and they've continued that ongoing mission to restore Peter Gesner mansion to the glory at once new. But even though new generations have taken up the fight against time, it's hard to deny the way the past seems to haunt those high ceiling rooms. The past might very well be behind us. But if Seattle is any indication, it's all around us as well. Everyone loves a good comeback story to see the hero of the tail stand back up and keep marching toward the prize. Maybe that's because humans tend to be stubborn and resilience, or perhaps these stories offer us that precious nourishment, that our souls depend on hope. Seattle is a city of hope. It's a community with dark and broken foundation, rooted prejudice and violence and crime, but it's never let the past to find it even when it all burned to the ground that was seen less as a setback and more as a chance to improve and become something better. The rise from the ashes like a Phoenix, but it never really goes away doesn't the city is dark past just moved underground for a time studying up shot beneath the feet of the people who live there because that's what shadows do. They bend away from the lights, clinging to the underbelly and the corners of our world. We won't ever fully get rid of them. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. In some ways, the past is still there. It's in the names of streets like Yesler way in places like pioneer square. But in other places, progress has washed over the past, like a wave and replaced it with something new. A great example of this is the brothel that Lou gram built following the great fire of eighteen ninety nine. It's still standing today at the corner of south Washington and third avenue. Although it's now known as the Washington court building. But the most persistent pieces of the past to stick around are the stories chief Seattle passed away in eighteen sixty six, but his daughter kick assume low, stayed in the city. Legend says that she lived near the waterfront near western avenue pike, and she was so warm and friendly to everyone around her. That doc Maynard's wife Catherine was said to have given her the nickname Princess Angeline. Time marched on and try to leave the past behind buffer decades. Princess Angeline was still there serving as a reminder of her father's legacy and the early days of the community. They say she sold clams and handmade baskets and watched as the city that had one spent a fishing village of her own people grew into a metropolis of strangers. When she passed away in eighteen ninety six. She was buried near Henry Yesler in Lakeview cemetery. But there are many who believe she's never really left the city ever since the establishment of the pike place market. Countless people have reported seeing a woman with a woven basket in her arms. Usually sitting off to the side of the crowd. Others have seen the same figure walking down the streets between downtown and the market or shoulders wrapped in a shawl. Her hair pulled back in long brains, they say, she lacks that apparition appearance that we might expect from typical go stories instead blending in with all the other people near her. But when anyone has approached her g. banishes. Following the battle for Seattle in eighteen sixty five. A treaty with signed between both sides, an old chief Seattle was said to have given a speech during the negotiations. The authenticity of the speech as we know it today is highly debatable. The first version historians know of was printed three decades after the treaty was signed. The most think that that the very least the spirit of his message was captured by those who attempted to record it's and it's the final few lines that have caught the attention of so many words that seemed to echo through the ages as a warning to those who choose to remain in the city named after him. At night, Seattle was said to have spoken when the streets of your cities and villages will be silent and you think them deserted. They will throng with returning hosts, that once filled and still love this beautiful land, the white man will never be alone. Let him be just and deal kindly with my people for the dead are not powerless dead. Did I say there is no death only a change of worlds. Looking back from the perspective of the twenty first century fewer words could be so true. Nothing ever really goes away. It just slips into the shadows of the past where it haunts us by reminding us of its presence. For better or for worse. We're never alone. Nine hope you've enjoyed this brief tour of the amazing history behind one of America's greatest cities and the stories that still haunt her streets. But there's one last hail I want to share with you one that begins in the earliest days of the community, but has refused to fade away, stick around after this short break the hear all about it. This episode of law was made possible by each and every one of you. And by our bar, the Rx bar was created in two thousand thirteen because they couldn't find a protein bar without artificial ingredients. Fillers and preservatives. Their goal was to create clean, simple protein bars without the Bs and they did it. 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While you're on the go for twenty five dollars off your first order, plus free shipping visit our ex bar dot com slash Lor and enter the promo code Laura at checkout. That's Rx bar dot com. Slash Lor promo code Laura. This episode was also made possible by squarespace. I'll be the first to admit that I have a really weird job. I tell bizarre stories for living, and it takes a lot of time for me to do it right. So everything else that's on my list, like adding new episodes to the website or showing off the latest book cover needs to be incredibly simple, which is why I use squarespace with squarespace. You can create beautiful websites to show off all of your work. Published a blog, sell your digital or physical goods, even promote your business. The lore website has been powered by squarespace since the very beginning almost four years ago, and I can't imagine doing. Any other way between their beautifully designed templates, powerful, ecommerce features free hosting, twenty four, seven award winning customer support. Squarespace has everything that I need to run a professional website without making it my profession get started today for free. Just visit squarespace dot com. Slash Lor to start your free trial website when ready to launch, be sure to use the offer code Laura at checkout to save ten percents, squarespace, build something beautiful. And finally, this episode was made possible by casper. The casper is an obsessively engineered mattress at a shockingly fair price. Each casper combines multiple supportive memory foams for equality, sleep surface with the right amounts of both sink and bounce, and it's breathable to which helps you sleep cool and regulate your body temp throughout the night. And the end result is the best night of sleep. I have ever had casper arrives in an insanely small. How did they do that box after the easy unpacking process? I laid right down on the mattress in the middle of the day. And felt amazing. This was a revolutionary experience for me. The casper is also designed developed in assembled right here in America, and I'm not alone in my love for casper with over twenty thousand reviews with an average of four point eight stars, it's quickly becoming the internet's favorite mattress. You can be sure of your purchase with casper is one hundred night risk-free sleep on trial. If you don't love it, they'll pick it up for free and refund you everything. They even have free shipping in the US and Canada. So I'm not sure you can get more risk free than that. Start sleeping ahead of the curve with casper, get fifty dollars towards select mattresses by visiting casper dot com slash Lor and using the promo code Laura checkout terms and conditions apply. That's casper dot com. Slash Lor offer code Lor. And his wife Susanna climbed into their wagon in eighteen fifty two. They weren't the typical family headed toward the Oregon trail. They weren't looking for land or even gold. No, Daniel and his family were heading west for an entirely different reason. He was on a mission from God. Daniel was a Methodist minister who had spent the previous decade traveling throughout Illinois, preaching his message from town to town and setting up new Methodist church communities. Now, though he had been given a new task, he was to be a missionary taking his work into the west where he would serve out a five year contract for the tidy sum of six hundred dollars a year. By the journey was tough along the way they met up with other travelers and along with good conversation and helpful hands. These strangers brought something else with them cholera. The number of travellers died from the disease, but somehow Daniel and their son Clarence managed to stay healthy Susannah though wasn't doing so well. As they moved closer and closer to their destination in Oregon rumors began to reach them a place farther north, a place with fresh air and open sky, believing that is wife. Health could benefit from such a climate. Daniel changed course and aimed for the Puget Sound finally arriving in eighteen sixty. Susannah pulled through and the family settled into life there in the growing town named after the local native American ruler, Seattle. And while he did engage in the duties, he had been tasked with founding the Methodist church on second and Mason. He also threw himself into the local business world. Soon enough. He was Commissioner for the brand new Washington state university founded by none other than Arthur Denny. After that he took over management of a series of coal mines on the eastern side of town. Daniel Bagley had a knack for business and he was quickly rewarded for all his hard work and looking back on his influential life. He left the powerful Mark on Seattle. But he might have left more than that. There's a story about one of his Methodist churches in the area up on Capitol Hill that takes place in the late nineteen eighties according to former deacon Douglas Jensen. He began his nightly rounds one evening as he always did by taking a walk through the building, and it was in the middle of that inspection that something unexplainable happen. Jensen recalled walking into one of the rooms only to be stopped in his tracks by the figure of Daniel Bagley standing before him. Jensen described the vision as translucence and something reminiscent of the holograms one might see in Hollywood scifi film. Others have seen Bagley as well. One minister in the building witness Bagley standing on the balcony, his arms on the railing is looking down upon him. Daniel is apparently not the only spirit to haunt the church. Some have claimed to see a woman in a long flowing dress or form glowing. In that same translucent blue light. On one such occasion, the woman actually spoke, how do I get out? She asked the person who found her could do nothing except point to the door, their voice caught in their throats instead of heading that direction, though ghostly woman was said to have turned around and flown out a nearby window. It was only later well through a book of images from Seattle's past that the witnesses realized just who that woman really was. Daniel Bagley wife, Susanna. Maybe the couple had returned in an effort to save the church. They founded or perhaps they just felt drawn to a familiar place either way they are just one more reminder that this thoroughly modern metropolis is full of countless stories from the past. Then I hope we never forget them. This episode was written and produced by me, Aaron monkey with research by Carl Nellis and music by Chad Lawson. I make to other podcasts as well cabinet of curiosities and unexcused. You can find links to both of those over the world of Lor dot com slash now Laura exists outside of this podcast is well, there's a book series in stores around the country and online. And as we mentioned before, the second season of the Amazon prime television show kicks off in just a few days on October nineteenth. Check them both out if you want more Lor in your life. And you can always learn about everything going on all over in one place, the world of lore dot com slash now. Oh n, hey, if you're a social media sort of person and you wanna follow along. The show is on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram just searched for lower podcast. All one word quick that follow button when you do say hi. I like it. When people say hi. And as always thanks for listening.
"One to write a horse across Mongolia Road trip through Mississippi give alms Luang Prabang or Tuck into a Bush dinner in remote Australia join host and travel writer Daniel Shuffler on the new podcast everywhere everywhere centered around the Travel Commandments. Daniel has developed over a lifetime of exploration because it's not about where you go in the world but how you are in the world each episode addresses one commandment to Dell story illustrating. Why it's an ideal travel strategy like thou shalt keep holy the high and low or thou shalt be irritatingly polite everywhere also features recurring guest holly fry of stuff? You missed in history class to delve into some of the unique backstory of the destinations. Daniel visits so tune in every week for a new adventure across the globe. It'll help you feel like you're part of this world one travel commandment at a time listen in and subscribe at Apple podcasts or on the iheartradio APP or wherever you listen to podcasts welcome to text up production of iheartradio's how stuff works. Hey there in welcome to tech stuff. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with iheartradio and how stuff works no love all things tech and as I record this there is an ongoing going story in tech and aviation news. You've probably heard about it. That's focusing on the troubles with Boeing's seven thirty seven Max aircraft <hes> so far. It's resulted in two fatal accidents in less than a half a year which led to the entire fleet of seven thirty seven Max aircraft being grounded across the world while lots of people are looking into it and figuring out how to fix things and how to prevent such tragedies from happening in the future now a subsequent episode. I'll look into that specific problem more closely because obviously it is very important. A lot of people lost their lives in those tragedies but today we're going to look at the history the origins of Boeing and the role that the company has played and technology over the years not just in commercial jets but also military technology like helicopters and bombers and things like that and missiles as well as even components for space vehicles and the company is more than a century old at this point so how did it all get started well. We should probably begin by focusing on the founder of the company itself William. The e Boeing William Boeing was born in eighteen eighty one in Detroit Michigan and his is not a rags to riches story. It's more like a riches to holy cow. That's it's a lot of money. Riches story as father was Ville Helm Boeing <hes> that spelling of Boeing is slightly different from the Modern Spelling Modern Spelling B. O. E. I N G The anglicized spelling Boeing but originally it was be with an all-out. I N G Seville Ham Boeing immigrated from Europe to the United States in eighteen sixty eight Ville. Helm himself was from a Well-to-do family early though he did not have a fortune to his name upon arriving in the U._S.. He had a lot of connections which helped him out but he didn't exactly come over to the states with pockets full of cash he had to make his own fortune. They would meet a man named Cart Ortmann who essentially helped Velho get into the lumber trade where he would flourish then he amassed a fortune he also got into mining <hes> during his own lifetime. The mining operations that he created weren't terribly terribly <hes> profitable but they would prove to be so in the long run was just unfortunately after he had already passed away he also eventually married <hes> a cart Ortmann. 's daughter Marie and they had three kids including William e Boeing <hes> he was born into wealth as a result and Ville Helm would die in eighteen ninety. He contracted influenza actually died on a train ride back home. William Boeing was only eight years old at that time his mother remarried and he was sent off to attend a prestigious boarding school in Switzerland so talk about a life that I can't really identify with at all it would return to the states. He attended other rather exclusive prep schools before he would eventually enter Yale University and he decided to study engineering now at the time the engineering program at Yale was a three year program mm-hmm but Boeing wanted to pursue his own fortune a little earlier than that and so he dropped out of university after just two years he then decided to move to the Pacific northwest and follow in his father's footsteps and get into the lumber knbr trade at this point. The Michigan area was pretty heavily deforested. I mean there's still plenty of forests but the lumber industry had really operated for quite some time there so he decided the Pacific northwest was the next prime real estate for the lumber industry Boeing's company the Greenwood Timber Company proved to be very successful and by now it was the early nineteen hundreds around nineteen ten William e Boeing would attend an air show near Los Angeles California and he got a look at early airplanes now keep in mind. This is nineteen ten. The Wright brothers had their successful flights just in nineteen zero three so very early days for aviation mullion Boeing was was immediately interested in airplanes aviation and even tried to arrange for a ride in an airplane but found that none of the pilots were particularly willing to provide one and so it would go until about nineteen fourteen. That's when William Liam Boeing met another person named George Conrad Westervelt. He was an officer in the U._S.. Navy who also had a fascination with aircraft and had been stationed over on the west coast the two men became close friends. They shared a lot of common interests together and in Nineteen fifteen they met an aviator named Tara Mahoney and he was happy to have them aboard his curtis seaplane and he gave them some flights around and that just cemented their for interest in aviation Boeing decided to officially enroll in flight school in Nineteen fifteen in Los Angeles California he completed his training and then he decided to you know treat himself though only the the way that that multi millionaire types can he bought his own airplane. It was a model t a seaplane and essentially this was a type of training aircraft to be fair. There weren't a whole lot of different varieties in nineteen fifteen. Those still very early days for aircraft. He did not exactly fall in love with this airplane. As soon as he purchased the aircraft he had to pay for Replacement Pontoon. This seaplane had had a single pontoon upon which it would land as opposed to the dual pontoons you often see with seaplanes. He hired on a crew to maintain the plane but he didn't own it for very long before it had an accident and got partially wrecked in the fall of nineteen fifteen it crashed into Lake Washington Boeing was not aboard the plane of the time so it wasn't piloting the aircraft or anything <hes> so he was not injured in this but the aircraft itself was damaged and Boeing going was largely unimpressed with the performance of the aircraft he became convinced that he could help design a superior airplane now around that same time there were more than a dozen fledgling companies that were trying to design Zayn and build aircraft but I don't mean to suggest that were a lot of actual aircraft being produced as a result in fact in nineteen fourteen. There were fewer than fifty planes manufactured by all of these companies put put together and at this point there were no real practical applications for planes so there wasn't much call for making more of them. They were mostly seen as playthings for wealthy hobbyists who are otherwise pretty bored with life so if get a lot of money and you didn't have a whole lot of concern for your own personal safety you might try to start building aircraft or buying one so a lot of those companies were founded by people who aren't bad different from William Boeing himself though at least Boeing had had some engineering training under his belt. Some of the people who founded some of these early airplane companies didn't even have that Boeing reached out to Westervelt to help him with the design and they also hired on a mechanic in pilot named Herb Munter as well Westervelt secured time with a wind tunnel that was operated by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or M._I._T.. And they tested their various designs <hes> they would bring wooden models calls to test and the wind tunnels and take very careful measurements of how well those designs were doing these were not full scale replicas but you know small-scale wooden ones ultimately Westervelt designed to plane that didn't look that much different from the model not a seaplane the Boeing had purchased in the past there were some important differences so the model t a had that single pontoon on it but the new aircraft would actually have to pontoons to help with stability but in many other ways it was a fairly close copy of that t a airplane they called this first plane that they built the Blue Bill and they put it through a test flight on June Fifteenth Nineteen Sixteen. It was <hes> a success it actually did very well on that test flight and it would become the basis for the company's first aircraft which became known as the B._M._w.. Model one B and w stood for Boeing and Westervelt revolt of course one month after that test flight on July Fifteenth Nineteen Sixteen William Boeing filed articles of INC for a new company called the Pacific Ero Products Company Company <hes> those articles inc were rather vague no telling if it was purposeful or not but it would end up being a huge help to the company a little later on I'll explain more in a bit but this is the company they would ultimately become Boeing and why Boeing the company traces there history back to nineteen sixteen officially the company would change its name a little less than a year after it had formed and it became came the Boeing airplane company in May nineteen seventeen but we've got a little bit more to talk about before we get to nineteen th seventeen so westervelt would not stay on he couldn't <hes> he was actually transferred back to the East Coast so he had this sort of end in his official business relationship with Boeing however he would remain important to the company he would refer talent from the East Coast to go and work for his friends company out West and one of those referrals was a man named named Wong Su who would become known as the first actual engineer on Boeing's staff and some would even call him the father of Boeing because of his influence in those early early days so won't sue do was born in Beijing China in eighteen ninety three when he was only twelve years old the Manchu government would select him to become a navy cadet at the young Thai Naval Academy when he was. Sixteen the government sent him to study naval architecture an engineering in England at Armstrong Technical College then he had the opportunity to attend M._I._T.. And study their brand new courses in aeronautical engineering. There was the first of such programs in the United States. He expressed desire to stay in the U._S. for a couple of years beyond his graduation in order to get some practical experience designing and building aircraft before returning to China when Westervelt was looking for someone to send over to Boeing longs instructor at M._I._T.. The Guy who actually created this aeronautical engineering <hes> program at M._I._T.. A guy named drome hudsucker. Her Amelie said that Wong was the right candidate he would play an important part and Boeing's early successes so the original Boeing factory back West <hes> was a boat house that wasn't too far from Seattle Washington on the Duwamish River and by the way I'm sure on mispronouncing butchering names and I will continue to do so throughout this episode and my deepest apologies for that <hes> that is a failing on my part well William Boeing had some interesting ideas ideas about creating incentives for employees engineers he said well you know what if you are designing a plane. If you're building a plane you also can fly it. You're allowed to fly the planes that you're building so they weren't aren't just the engineers and and manufacturers they were the test pilots as well and Wong would get to construct planes for Boeing and get to fly them if he wanted to. The Verse Plane Wong would have a hand in designing and really the the main one was the Model Model C. which was ready for its first test flight <hes> on <hes> November Fifth Nineteen Sixteen which was just a few months after the B._M._w.. Test flights so one thing that really struck me the as I was doing research for this episode was how close together some of these dates are like it's amazing to me the thought of putting together a prototype aircraft and then flying it and then going right into the design and production of of a different prototype aircraft right away and being able to do it within a month. It's phenomenal to me now granted in these days these aircraft were made out of canvas and would there would be a wild before they would switch over to metals like aluminum but still and they were also in lumber country up in the Pacific northwest they had no shortage of that and and of course Boeing himself operated a lumber <hes> company so that helped as well but still that's pretty amazing to me anyway the B._M._W.. You had showed the Boeing can make a working aircraft but had very little application outside of that wealthy hobbyist market which as you might imagine was a pretty limited slice of the population the Model C. would prove to be much more versatile and it was helped no small part by the fact that over in Europe the Great War what we would later call World War One was raging and it was only a matter of time for the United States was pulled into it so the aircraft that flew on November Fifth Nineteen Sixteen was called d. c. four and that was because it was the fourth airplane that William Boeing ever owned and Wong would redesign the model C. giving it a bigger rudder among other changes and this Redesign Model C. was ready by April nineteen seventeen. Now is the same month that President Woodrow Wilson would declare war on Germany putting the United States into World War One has for Wong he received the princely some of fifty dollars and seventy seven cents for his work as an engineer and then was released from Boeing the company that is on May twenty second nineteen seventeen he returned to China and he established the first Chinese airplane factory there so while we're talking about money this fifty dollars and seventy seven cents that Wong earned for all his work with the Boeing Company. Let's talk a little bit about how much the Boeing company earned from contract. They made aid the United States Navy during World War One. The navy wanted proof that the Model C. would meet its needs and they ask for a demonstration at a naval base in Pensacola Florida now for those of you not familiar with U._S.. Geography Geography Pensacola Florida is pretty darn far away from Seattle Washington. The two locations are on opposite sides of the country Seattle Washington's in the Northwest Pensacola Florida's in the southeast and the United States. It's is really wide well. This presented something of a challenge because the Model C. aircraft had a fairly short range of flight these early airplanes could not go that far so in order to get to this demonstration gratien Boeing actually had to pack a couple of planes up in pieces disassembled on a train and herb munter the mechanic and pilot mentioned a little bit ago <hes> as well as a factory superintendent named Claude Berlin then would travel with these disassembled planes across the country on train arriving at Pensacola and then assembling them again so that they could be flown on behalf of the navy's that they could evaluate the aircraft now. The flight test was a huge success and the navy put in an order for fifty model sees the price tag for those fifty planes was five hundred seventy five thousand dollars so quite quite a bit more Cheddar than Mr Wong had earned the Boeing company would build a new manufacturing facility near Seattle nicknamed the Red Barn and the Navy would also order a couple of other special aircraft on top of these fifty model sees they wanted a couple of modified model sees sometimes referred to as e as of E._A.. Standing for experimental aircraft and these were land planes there are meant to land on firm ground rather than on water after they also asked for another variant called D. C. One F which had a single main pontoon as opposed to the pair of pontoons as well as a couple of auxiliary floats to add stability and that was the beginning of some pretty lush days for Boeing but when we come back I'll talk about another industry that opened up real opportunities for Boeing beyond the military but first. Let's take a quick break. Support protect stuff comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken. Loans home is so much more than a house. It's your own little slice of Heaven. That's why when you find the perfect place for you and your family getting a mortgage shouldn't Lindt getting the way imagine how it feels to have an award winning team by your side through every step of the mortgage process. It's awesome and exactly what you get with rocket mortgage by quicken loans their team mortgage experts is obsessed with finding a better way which means that they're number. 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You know it's got to be pretty weird to have a business really take off because whether it is that you happen to be making is really important for war efforts because your profitability is dependent upon violent struggles in which millions of lives are potentially at stake and moreover it creates an odd situation which you might on some level wish for continued hostilities because that means you stay in business as pretty dark in fact the Boeing airplane company was almost completely dependent upon military contracts in addition to the Model C. aircraft they they were making for the navy they also secured a contract to build another company's aircraft. This would be the Curtis H.. S. Two L. from the Curtis Aeroplane Company the Navy would use these types of aircraft on antisubmarine submarine patrols off the coast of France and the Navy anticipated a greater need then what curtis could produce in its own manufacturing facilities so Boeing landed what would have been a pretty lucrative contract to create licensed versions in the same aircraft so Boeing didn't design this aircraft they were working from Curtis Design <hes> and they would get a certain amount of money for producing these aircraft however before bowing could really get moving on this production World War One ca came to an end and the navy cancelled the order for those H._F._S.. To L. Planes and that point Boeing employed three hundred thirty seven people but the contract with the military was seeing as has a really pivotal contract for the company survival it was important because there weren't really any other streams of revenue coming in that were reliable so William Boeing. I loaned some of his own money to the Boeing Company for the purposes of meeting payroll because they weren't bringing in enough revenue to pay everybody. Even so the demand for aircraft plummeted once the war was over and Boeing had little choice but the scale back the airplane airplane company they reduced it down to sixty seven employees by nineteen nineteen but Boeing had another application for aircraft early on that wasn't dependent upon military actions <hes> and it wasn't commercial flights either because because those were still several years away instead it was delivering the male Morley's the potential for that on March Third Nineteen Nineteen William Boeing himself co-pilot at a plane that was a designated the c seven hundred so another variant of the model see it was to carry mail from Vancouver British Columbia Canada to Seattle Washington and technically it was the first International Air Mail delivery to the United States. I think it was something like sixty letters or packages so wasn't a whole lot and it wasn't exactly a total success Boeing and his copilot a guy named Eddy Hubbard were forced to land prematurely. They landed about twenty five miles north of Seattle because again these aircraft weren't really capable of taking very long flights and they were running very low on fuel but it was a sort of proof of concept for air delivery and would help establish the practice in earnest later on the post office would take take full control of that for quite a few years now there was a real danger of Boeing going out of business and these early years not only did the contracts with the military dry up but the country was also entering into an economic depression and this wasn't the Great Depression that would come on a little bit later but it was an economic depression and there was very little call for aircraft so to keep the factories and operation the company began to produce other stuff. This was partly possible possible because as I mentioned earlier when William Boeing was first incorporating his business his articles of INC were pretty darned vague so as company was allowed to make lots of different stuff and he dedicated factories to build whatever was in demand don't like furniture so you could have ended up with a dining table created by aeronautical engineers possibly becoming also had a contract to provide maintenance and service to military aircraft which helped a little and in nineteen twenty one. <unk> Boeing woodland another big military contract this time the agreement involved the design and construction of twenty g a one and twenty g a two bombers now these were also aircraft that weren't designed by Boeing these these were designed by the new Army Air Service and Boeing would just act as the producer of those aircraft manufacturer of those aircraft. The company got to work but the army cancelled the contract after for ten g one bombers and three G. A. Two bombers were complete however the army also chose bowing to build two hundred M B three aircraft and the N._B._A.. Three were fighter planes also not designed by billing they were created by different company called Thomas Morse so wanted Boeing end up with the contract to build this other companies planes months because William Boeing was incredibly aggressive when bidding for contracts and Boeing came in with the lowest I bid at one point four million dollars for two hundred aircraft and so the government said you went you get to build them. Meanwhile there is still a need to find civilian uses for airplanes any Hubbard would convince William bowing to make sincere push for air carrier operations so airmail essentially those were the guys who had made history back in nineteen nineteen with what had been at the time mostly a proof of concept airmail run but Hubbard felt that it was a possible symbol legitimate avenue and a source for revenue for the company outside of military contracts at the time the United States post office was operating all of its own aircraft for Air Mail delivery. The aircraft in question was a clunky beast called the D. H.. Four and it wasn't a particularly agile or more importantly safe aircraft. The post office initially hired forty pilots to deliver airmail by nineteen twenty eighty five and this is a sobering fact thirty one of those forty pilots had died in plane crashes so the post office sought for a new more reliable and more maneuverable plane to take over for the job of the D. H.. Four which obviously was not not performing up to standards it was far too dangerous Boeing proposed a new design. They called it. The model forty eight one of the most important components of this particular aircraft was that it would use a totally different kind of engine from previous aircraft so engines can get really hot an airplane engines like the H. fours relied on water cooling but that meant the airplane. We'll have to carry a tank of water in addition to everything else or to keep the engine cool water is heavy in the sloshing of water can make it hard to fly a plane steady. The model forty eight instead had an air cooled engine designed by a company called Pratt and Whitney which was essentially part of the Boeing family as the name implies these engines manage heat by dissipating it into the air typically through a thinned surface the fence surface increases surface area <hes> and thus increases air cooling efficiency in addition to the opportunity to build airmail aircraft Boeing also had the chance to bid for actual airmail routes see the post office would open up this possibility because the U._S. government passed a piece of legislation called the contract airmail act and that did bring much what the name suggests it gave private companies the opportunity to bid on Air Mail routes on the contract basis. There were lots of different private companies that could do this. There are a lot of companies that were operating very small regional <hes> aircraft services so Hubbard would convince bowing to go after one of these routes this being a big one between San Francisco and Chicago Boeing once again got really aggressive with his bidding for that particular contract in fact his bidding was almost too aggressive the post office very nearly disregarded Boeing's bid because they considered it too low to actually be serious. <hes> it was much much lower than the main competitor for that contract that was a company called Western Air Express Boeing used his political connections to reach out to Leslie Jones who was the senator from Washington state in order for Jones to reach out to the postmaster general and reassure the postmaster general that Boeing both the man and the company was serious and the company was completely capable of doing the job at the quoted price even so Boeing was compelled to put his money whereas mouth is he had to post an eight hundred thousand dollar bond to guarantee his company would actually live up to its contractual obligations. I guess he got to spend money to make money with the ink drying on that contract Boeing also reached out to Pratt and Whitney with an order of twenty five of those air cooled engines and William Boeing would form a subsidiary company called Boeing air transport it officially went into business on July first nineteen twenty seven the contract would give Boeing the stability it needed to continue to grow in addition. Charles Lindbergh made history by flying across the Atlantic Ocean in nineteen twenty seven which prompted renewed interest in aviation and the stock market was performing well right at that time so Boeing the company went public in Nineteen Twenty eight in an effort to raise more money through a stock offering that also begin to offer up the opportunity for passengers to fly on aircraft now this was not exactly luxury travel nor was it a big commercial jet or anything along along those lines Boeing altered a few of its model forty eight aircraft the ones that were being used for airmail and these altered aircraft had to whole extra seats in them so you had the pilot and co-pilot pilots seats and then you had to passenger seats so passengers could book one of two seats and travel with all the air mail to a specific route air travel for passengers was in its infancy and Boeing was a dominant player in that that space it was a small space Boeing had carved out a pretty significant portion of that Pie <hes> the estimate was that Boeing was handling about thirty percent of all passenger and airmail travel in the United States at this time and William Boeing wanted to bring his subsidiaries altogether and unify them under a single holding company and this was in an effort to remain competitive against other growing companies and led to the foundation of what was called the United Aircraft and Transport Corporation which was formed in nineteen twenty nine was essentially an umbrella company for the new Boeing Air Transport Company the older Boeing Airplane Company Pratt and Whitney that engine manufacturing company. I taught about a second ago and some other smaller companies that Boeing had kind of acquired along the way in nineteen thirty the United States Congress passed the airmail act in an effort to improve air mail service across the United States and to encourage the development of commercial air travel for passengers as part of that strategy companies like Boeing would be allowed to make use of the infrastructure that the United States post office had established when it first built out airmail routes so all those air travel booties and things of that nature. These companies were allowed to use the postmaster general. I guy named Walter Brown thought the best way to improve air mail service was to rely almost exclusively on larger air carrier companies put <hes> criteria in place that only the big companies could actually meet than it ended up pushing out a lot of smaller independent companies that had been doing these routes up to that point and and more importantly some smaller companies had been doing this at more competitive bids than the bigger companies so a reporter investigated this matter in nineteen thirty three and discovered that the postmaster general a had had met with a few select large companies like Boeing's parent company and essentially divvied up the nation's air mail routes between a select few big companies leaving out these smaller ones even the smaller ones that were posting more competitive bids this prompted a full on investigation into the matter by Congress and ultimately the investigation found that Brown technically didn't do anything against the law so the Postmaster General didn't technically you do anything illegal but it seemed like it was unethical and so congress ended up putting pressure on the airplane companies as well as on President Franklin Roosevelt to make something happened to Change Things so roosevelt initially ordered that all airmail service should fall exclusively under the auspices of the Army Air Corps in Nineteen thirty four and that the Army Air Corps was to take over immediately and provide that service which ended up being disaster <hes> twelve pilots would die in crashes within the first two months of this change which of course prompted the president to reverse this decision and flip it back so that private companies would provide air air mail service however Hugo black who was the <hes> the the politician who had actually overseen the congressional investigation into the whole mess earlier would author a new piece of legislation called the airmail act of nineteen thirty thirty four and that prohibited companies from operating as both an airplane manufacturer and an Air Mail carrier. You can do one or the other but you couldn't do boat you could not be both an air mail carrier and build airplanes and the big eight companies that have been part of the cozy relationship a couple of years earlier were expressly forbidden from getting airmail contracts so those same big companies that the postmaster general had met with in just a few years earlier were they were out of luck so in response United Aircraft and transport would break apart into three separate companies. There were two manufacturing companies. There's the Boeing Airplane Company. That's one we're going to stick with got still Boeing that that oversaw manufacturing operations west of the Mississippi there was united aircraft that was a manufacturing company had its factories east of the Mississippi and then you had a third company that would actually act as an air transportation company for cargo and for passengers that would become United Airlines so I could talk all about united aircraft in United Airlines but that's for a totally different show so when we come back I'll talk more about the history of Boeing starring with the departure of its founder but first. Let's take another quick break. They say that starbucks Nitro does for cold coffee what the Aurora Borealis does for the night sky. What tidal waves do for the Pacific Ocean? What the Grand Canyon will you get the idea? Are we really comparing starbucks. nitro cold brew to the Planets Greatest Natural Wonders yes yes we are sound too good to be true. You guess you'll just have to try it out for yourself. STARBUCKS nitro cold brew. It's cold coffee that subtly sweet lush and velvety smooth also available with sweet cream and cus Kara cold foam only add starbucks. Do you sell stuff online then. You knew what a pain shipping can be. It's time consuming. It's expensive. It's a hassle until now introducing ship station the fastest easiest and most affordable way to get your products to your customers whether. Whether you sell stuff on Amazon Oetzi Shop Affi- or your own website which ship station you can quickly ship all orders from one easy to use dashboard saving you a ton of time. There's even an easy to use mobile APP. So you always have access the plus you'll save money with ship. Stations deeply discounted rates from all the top carriers like U._S._P._S. U._P._S.. Fedex and more so you can always choose the best carrier at the lowest rate for every package. It's no wonder ship. Station is rated rated number one by online sellers and right now you can try ship station free for sixty days. That's right free just go to ship station DOT COM and enter the Promo Code podcast. We guarantee ship station will make getting orders to your customers a lot easier that ship station DOT COM Promo Code podcast ship station make ship happen all right so we're up to nineteen thirty four the holding winning company that had only been around for a few years had to break up into three different companies and William Boeing who did not take this terribly well was fed up with everything he had to give testimony during that Congressional Investigation Gatien and during that process he felt he was being somewhat unfairly targeted he and his company so he chose to retire he was fifty three years old. He divested all of his stock in the company in the process of retiring and this really wasn't too far off from what his established plan had been because he had frequently spoken of determining that he was going to retire by the time he was fifty so he actually stuck around a little longer than his original intention happened to be <hes> so <hes> wasn't so much that he retired early actually retired late if you take him out his word from his previous statements now I'm only going to focus on Boeing airplane from this point forward award as I said the other companies would require their own episodes. It would just make this far too long Boeing. The man leaves Boeing the company in Nineteen Thirty Four Clermont Claire Eck vet and I know I've butchered the last name it's E.. G. T. V. E. D. T.. It's a Norwegian name and I cannot pronounce Norwegian words to save my life anyway. He became the new chairman of Boeing he had been working for the company. Since nineteen twenty he he started as a draftsman and designer he rose to the position of chief engineer became vice president and then would become the successor to William Boeing and he also would play an important role and bringing the company to new heights and yes that was upon see another thing happened in nineteen thirty four that was really important to Boeing and that's the the Army Air Corps had issued a specification sort of a request for proposal for the design of they long range heavy bomber aircraft and by long range. We're talking five thousand miles of arrange. That's a heck of a distance to travel so claire pursued this opportunity. He submitted a bid that landed the company the chance to design a bomber of this type and the prototype was called the X._p.. Fifteen initially Boeing was competing against the Glenn L Martin Company which today today is actually part of Lockheed but the Martin Design never got to the prototype phase it was it was cancelled while it was still an idea on paper and the X._p.. Fifteen was quite a beast it had four engines since most bombers at the time only had two engines it measured more than eighty seven and a half feet long or twenty six point seven meters at a wingspan of nearly one hundred fifty feet or nearly forty five and a half meters when it was empty without any bombs or anything like that it weighed nearly thirty eight thousand pounds or more than seventeen thousand kilograms and its top speed it could travel at one hundred ninety seven miles per hour or three hundred seventeen kilometers power so it wasn't a speed demon and at meant that a five thousand mile trip would take more than thirty hours to complete so new had actually have multiple crews on one aircraft and they would operate and shifts the bomber actually had sleeping quarters aboard it and so big it was at bunks that people could sleep in the aircraft also featured an autopilot mode which was pretty revolutionary at the time it also had independent gasoline fueled electrical generators owners to act as auxiliary power units so it was a really impressive aircraft and while the military would take possession of the prototype it would not order more to be made however Boeing would incorporate much of that aircrafts designs into onto the next big project known internally as model to ninety nine but it would be known to the rest of the world by the designation be Seventeen Flying Fortress. This was another response to an army air corps specification. This one was searching for a long range bomber that could fly at high altitudes far above antiaircraft artillery range and also be used during daytime bombing runs head to travel at least the two hundred miles per hour at top speed to meet specifications also had to be capable of flying for ten hours at least so Boeing would go into competition with two other companies. Glenn Martin was one of them and the Douglas Aircraft Company company was the other and this sort of fly off competition would happen in nineteen thirty five Boeing's aircraft exceeded the specifications it could travel at top speed of two hundred eighty seven miles per hour with an average cruising speed of more than two hundred fifty miles per hour was plenty fast enough. According to the specifications it was also heavily armed <hes> the initial designs had five thirty caliber machine guns and a capability of holding up to forty eight hundred pounds or twenty a two hundred kilograms of bombs the fly off competition winning credibly well for Boeing and the Army Air Corps put in an initial or of sixty five of the aircraft and nearly a hundred thousand dollars each which amounted to about a two million dollars per plane today's money however a disaster nearly made all of that moot on October thirtieth nineteen thirty five this is still before the whole competition is over Boeing has already received an initial a preliminary order for those sixty five aircraft well on that day on October Thirtieth Nineteen thirty five Boeing employees less tower and an Army Air Corps pilot named major player Peter Hill were to take the the prototype for another test flight but the control surfaces on the test the prototype aircraft those will be the surfaces that can move in relation to the aircraft to control things like steering pitch Yaw and Roll if you've ever looked at an airplane's wing and you've seen a little flap that can go up or down. That's the sort of control service were talking about anyway. They were all locked down and what was called Gust Lock Mode Gust as in Gust of wind. This was to prevent those surfaces from being damaged by wins when the aircraft was actually on the ground proper operating procedure would include the ground crew disengaging the gust locks before the aircraft would be allowed to taxi and then take off that would allow the pilot full control of the aircraft and flight tragically that step was not done on October thirtieth nineteen thirty five so the gusts locks were still in place when they took the aircraft up and as it was climbing the aircraft stalled it went into a dive and tower and Hill could not control the plane and the plane crash a killed both pilots and an injured several people on the ground the crash meant the aircraft could not complete the full competition and the Air Corps would cancel the order of sixty five be seventeens instead they opted to order the Douglas Be Eighteen Bolo aircraft aircraft and might have all ended there but the air corps personnel were so impressed by Boeing's performance that through some maneuvering the next year they were able to place an order for thirteen b seventeen this would be in November nineteen thirty eighty six these would be just the first be seventeen that Boeing would deliver to the U._S.. Military over the next several years orders would continue to come in for more and for the first few years usually fewer than forty aircraft per year but then end the United States would enter into World War Two but then the U._S. would enter into World War Two and Boeing would have to step up production significantly in total the company would manufacture nearly thirteen thousand be seventeen bombers is around twelve thousand seven hundred or so there were so many orders the Boeing would be in a new position it would license out the aircraft designed to other manufacturers like Lockheed Vega and Douglas so similar to what Boeing Boeing itself had done in the past now it was licensing licensing out its own designs and the design would actually evolve over time to it wasn't like the B seventeen was designed and that's exactly how it was made from that point forward the thirty caliber machineguns would be replaced by fifty caliber versions at turrets were in the upper fuselage the belly and the tale of the aircraft the B Seventeen g variant which entered into service in nineteen forty three had thirteen thirteen fifty caliber machine guns and was pretty intimidating. The Army Air Corps also had developed a strategy in which nine or twelve aircraft would fly together in what was called a box formation sometimes called a staggered formation information which was a pretty daunting site. Even so the beast seventeen needed fighter pilot escorts they could not just operate without any sort of fighter pilots around them because while it could suffer an impressive amount amount of damage and remain operational if they didn't have more maneuverable aircraft supporting them they were very vulnerable to enemy fighters by the way despite the fact that there were thousands of these things made the B seventeen was not the most those produced bomber that honor would actually go to the consolidated aircraft be twenty four liberator but the B Seventeen would be the most prolific U._S. bomber in World War Two. It dropped more bombs than any other U._S.. US aircraft which is dubious honor to be sure but one that spoke to Boeing's design now in our next episode. I'm going to continue the story of Boeing and how the beast seventeen set the stage for an even larger and much. It's more expensive aircraft. The Be Twenty Nine superfortress also talk about Boeing's contribution to commercial aircraft and the space race buffer now. It's time to sign off so in our next episode. We'll continue our story in the meantime. If you have suggestions for future episodes of tech stuff you can let me know by sending an email the addresses tech stuff at how stuff works dot com or you can pop on over to our website. That's tech stuff tough PODCAST DOT com. You'll find an archive of oliver past shows there. You'll find links to where we are on social media. You'll also find a link to our online store. Where every purchase you make goes to help the show we greatly appreciate it and I'll talk to you again really soon? Tech stuff is a production of iheartradio's house stuff words for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows television network decades of pioneering television broadcast once and never seen again there was nothing else.
Episode 257: Grade Inflation (Entry 542.JB0807)
"Nothing we are Jennings and John Rodrick. We speak to you from our present which we can only assume as your distant past the turbulent time that was the early twenty first century fearing the great cataclysm that will surely befall our civilization. We began this monumental reference of strange obscure human knowledge. These recordings represent our attempt to compile and preserve wonders esoterica. That would otherwise be lost. So whether you're listening from an advanced civilization or have just. Reinvented the technology to decrypt our transmissions. This is our legacy to you. This is our time capsule. This is the you have accessed entry five. Four two DOT J zero eight zero seven certificate number four five four one seven grade inflation. That's the notion that global gone wrong. Women are strong on the manager. Luckily and all the children let me take you back. What just over two years ago in our era. I'm John Do you remember when we flew out to Atlanta and recorded the very first entries in what would become our monumental work the omnibus. I do I remember US coming up with the concept of omnibus on the plane. I remember the flight attendant came over. And Said are you Ken. Jennings this was. This was probably the lowest point in your fame twelve year. Try and you and you commented after you had signed her. Her Badger underwear whatever he said. Yeah I'm really popular with with grandmothers and flight attendants and then we discuss flight. Attendants have access to your name right. You're very slightly famous. You learned that anybody who can see your face and your name is like ten times more likely to recognize you than someone just has one piece. Of course they're like who is that guy and then they look but then we. We realized that we didn't like the original idea of our show. We came up with omnibus- we were high five and on the plane the whole time we were just high fiving like yes we got it and then we went to our corporate masters and how stuff works and told the more new idea and they were super bummed. They did not like it because their original idea which was that we hate on everything. The seemed to them that they would get more way more. Click however said this on this show that our original ideas we would just talk about a bad things in history and culture. The original the reasonable pitch of the show was the worst with Ken. Jennings John Ritter and it would be like. This is the worst mathematical formula. And we talk about that Bozo. Indiana who thought pie should be three. Yeah and I mean. There's a way that we could have framed a lot of these entries as the worst if we had just found something that was dinosaur battleship. Exactly the worst battle between two cruise ships and and at the end of I guess at the beginning of every show we could have said. I'm Ken and you would say I'm John and we would say this. Show is the worst air horn. But you and I looked at each other. And we're like. This is such a bummer. We would just be. It's just like so negative. We don't want be that negative about stuff so we decided instead to do a show about the end of human civilization right right but like in a perky way but they were really bummed because nobody do you remember how many people didn't know what the word omnibus- meant or suspected that people wouldn't know what the word omnibus me. I almost think they're not wrong but it's irrelevant. Omnibus sounds Latin authoritative and. I don't know not tactical governmental in a way here here. It sounds like old fashioned British Empire. Still not sure. I know what it means to be quite honest. I have a dictionary right here. You can also break it down into its component parts. Omni meaning all bus. Some all bus. All the buses is Latin for Greyhound. But yeah we got down there and we were in a conference room and I was like. Does anybody have a pen? 'cause I hadn't really thought about it and you had starlings as an idea and I had defenestration and we threw together a couple of shows. I'm I'm assuming you already had three by five cards and I was just in. I had A. I had a piece of notebook paper from the hotel. They give you four pieces of paper on the nightstand and a pen that writes for like three and a half pieces of paper used as they do still have drawers and drawers of Chateau Marmon pads with pens. That have my name maybe the Chateau still has still has nice now lately. They've been just getting four four pieces of paper. Everything's gone to hell. Well that's probably that's just cove that's Cova if you give too many pieces of paper that people oh take home and put it in their midst of their toilets but at the hotel speaking of the hotel and we met the night before in one of our rooms to try to figure out how the show would work right but what I remember about this hotel which is a little more relevant to this. Particular entry is that we checked in. We walked into the elevator and there was a sign in the. I don't expect you to remember. I'm with you. So far is a sign in the elevator. That said how our service and there was a scale from one to ten. Yeah and then there is an Arrow saying only ten is acceptable. Question was asked and answered by the elevator. Remember that so. Churches struck me as funny because there was this vast Gulf of of really grades. They did not want you to give them right right but they were. They were suggesting that figure. Is it supposed to intimidate their housekeeping staff? Or is it are. We really expected to respond to it. I assume it does. It does two things for the guest I mean on a kind of benign level. It makes it seem like what they're saying is only the top level of service is is what you guessed deserve. You have even the slightest complaint. Please come to storm down into the lobby and the kind of amazing hospitality apparatus apparatus that will take care of it. Now let me ask you this when you get into a hotel room. How much less than ten like at first blush? If you find less than ten anywhere how much of it will you let slide before you actually call down to the Front? I have almost never called down to the front desk in a hotel. I mean it's not like you come in and there's like a used bar of soap in the sink but you know I'm always the first thing I do when I get into. My Room is called down to the front. Even if there's nothing wrong well no. There's always something and you generally example of something you would call down full. Generally I ask to have my bed defend third because I'm allergic to feathers. I remember from checking into things with you. I'm like has the room and so in advance a Lotta time. I'll make a and say no feathers and so I'll say in check in. Has the room been defended? And it's not like there's a swallows nest in the in the nightstand. You're talking about the pillow pillows and the comfort of them will make me out. I'll climb in and within four minutes. I'm like you turn into a bird. It's terrible it's terrible. I get Cova from from feathers and so I often call down about that. Just you know just like you just want to Annoy Pete Small Needs. I have small needs but they build up to be one. Giant need an a a pit of need. He read online reviews of hotels. Everyone Star Review will be like a list of things that has never happened to me in any establishment like I walked in the toilet was overflowing. I walked in and instead of a bed. There was a wrecked car. It just seems like these catastrophic things are happening to people and I walk into every hotel room and sometimes it's a little depressing and sometimes it's not but I've never had a problem. One time. I checked into a hotel in crystal city Arlington Virginia Crystal. That made up city in the middle of does not a city at all. It's just it's just a subway stop or whatever but it was the Crystal City Hilton. Not Afraid to out them. Because once I got into the room it smelled really of cigarettes and I went back down to the lobby and I was like my room. Smells like cigarettes and like I took took them twenty minutes to give me another room. I went up in. That room smelled like cigarettes strongly and they came downstairs and I was like the second room. Smells like cigarettes. It smells more like cigarettes. And it took him thirty minutes to figure out in Third Room. I went up there and it smelled like cigarettes and I was like not. This is two thousand fifteen like not every room in this hotel smells like cigarettes Shirley but it was early days of twitter now was two thousand twelve probably eleven maybe early days of twitter and I went on a tweet storm about it by name. Yeah it was like I'm standing in the Hilton Crystal City. And but you know it was a tweet storm. So I- I exaggerated. I said like there's blood on the floor. There's a cow head in the Bath Tab Public Forum. I might stop and after a while. After about twenty minutes there was a knock on the door and I was laying in bed. Tweeting up a storm just having a good old time and I said from the bed like yes and it was like a stern voice. That said Mr Rodrick. We understand. There's some problem with the room. Can you come open the door? Step away from your device and I was like I'm not opening the door and and I was tweeting about it the whole time. Like there's a guy outside. You know he wants me to come anyway. It turned into a big Hullabaloo. And and didn't he just want to give you a nicer room? Well usually what happens with Reid? Storms Yemen? Why wouldn't they just say like here's a key to a better room? Please stop tweeting but they started. They had some conflict mediation person on twitter. That started tweeting me. Like what can we do to make this right? You know? We'll give you five days of Free Hilton anywhere. But I was having too much fun at that point and I was like. I don't want your filthy lucre. And eventually they realized that I didn't I wasn't Ken Jennings. I didn't have the reach to create like if once it didn't get picked up by buzzfeed. They stopped offering me anything. They just ignored me but I think my name is on a blacklist. I assume that hotel had just had like a poker tournament or something and everybody was smoking in every room. Feel like it all that cigarette. Smoke BACK TO LIKE WATERGATE. He's just never and there's just no way to pressure wash those rooms forever. Can't get it out. I mean the the more the less benign interpretation of the sign in the elevator saying ten is the only acceptable grade citizens would be that they know corporate is going to survey former guests and they want to make sure you know that their livelihoods are on the line. If you were to say any number other than ten so it becomes let us take care of this now instead of you know. It's like never leave the tip under twenty percents. Something's going wrong corrected at the moment and then tip but so you think that that signed came from the local management as a way of insult like preparing the customer to not rat on them to the big bosses rather than that every hotel in that chain. Has that sign? I think so because you see in other industries nowadays the kind of the peer-to-peer Gig economy means that a lot of us are in the position of rating. Are every interaction. Please don't leave a bad review y'all with our. Es with yelp business are ebay seller a ride share driver and a lot of the people in these positions now literally have whether or not they can pay the bills. It now varies on the grade. That you John. Rodrick tweet tweeting about blood in the Hilton. Right can provide. I mean you can put people out of work. I mean you probably did. Six people were probably fired because of your tweets. Also you feel okay about after. That was on the floor. Or you're supposed to do but I've heard that there are people that are exploiting this yellow P- exploiters who go to places and threaten to leave bad reviews and then collect free stuff. Oh yes I think. That is the case. And I've seen it and usually people will claim that it's substantive like entree was cold and they didn't even offer us free dessert. Better make this right Tiger hidden and who knows if it actually happened the clearly. The idea is wait. I can get free stuff. There's some some businesses have controls implemented like I got into a dispute with somebody on Ebay. One time when the thing arrived in it was not what they described and I said well this is bad and they were like well. You can send it back and I said well. I don't want to send it back but I think you should make this right because this is. This is less of a thing than you advertise. It happened to me once. I bought a bunch of Lego sorted like a third of them. Were like mega blocks or something and I was like you said these were Lego. And they said we'll send them back and I said No. Why don't you refund me some of the difference? You know in my case the guy said that's against Ebay terms and conditions true and and having suggested it now. Oh because I said you know I don't want to give you a bad rating but you should make this right. And he said because you mentioned ratings. Now it's extortion and I was like what I'm not gonNA give you a bad rating. Just make this right. And he was like that's extortion. According to Youtube or encoding to Ebay terms and conditions so I ended up just passively accepting that it was lesser. I've had ebay sellers. Just Harangue me foremost just. Because I didn't rate them like it's not just you know even not rating somebody is unacceptable in there and maybe that's just OCD. Not Any real economic force but this is a real thing on the Internet on yelp. The average yelp score of any business is four stars. It's actually three point seven eight but yelp browns to the nearest star right. So the average yelp business has four stars. That's average eighty percent. Yeah and the implication there is that if you are a four star business people are GonNa think your not that great right even though you're four out of five so this is a real world example of the phenomenon of grade inflation. Is this true for you if you look at a yelp review or something and you're like four stars what's wrong with that? I know the scale in my head. And so your brain just correct instead of thinking. Four out of five delicious. Like I'd go see a movie that was for ratified you think. How can this place only be four out of five? That takes doing every other Teriyaki restaurant in this part of town is four point. Seven four point. Yeah four point three or higher. You know you've got literally have cockroaches to be a four point. Oh right which is weird. Four point is good and that's the paradox of grade inflation that as there's a seems to be a tendency within systems for ratings to creep upward and it's not a problem you know. Inflation is not necessarily an economic problem. Hyperinflation I'm sitting here in front of a ten trillion dollar bank of Zimbabwe. Note that somebody sent us right so obviously. There's logistical problems. When inflation runs out of control and if inflation gets out of hand it can lead to different economic problems but in and of itself. There's nothing wrong with the fact that a five dollar bill today is worth what a fifty dollar? Bill was worth in one thousand nine thirty. It's you know. Money can can in upward. Nothing goes wrong but the problem closed system like five yelp stars or GPA. Is that there's a ceiling so win ratings creep creep upward instead of just kind of benignly instead of hotels being like well I guess now fifteen is the new excellent like the elevator said. There's nothing better than ten. That was the whole point. So you get these systems that are asymptotically approaching a limit and as a result. It's not just the numbers. The grading creeps up where it Kinda starts to become meaningless in Seattle. There are health department signs every every restaurant is inspected by the health department and they're given a rating on a four face scale. They're the exact same faces that are used to describe how much your labor pains hurt. Yes there's the doctor. Yuck thing there's like happy as like super elated face their smiley face. There's like sort of like no emotion face and then there's frowny face California. Is this supposed to be friendlier or is it language independent? Maybe it's that it's been King County and Seattle especially try to make everything accessible to people of every language and I went to. I went to a Duwamish River Conference one time and they had translators who've translating in six different languages but ever it's hard to find the Duwamish to Serbo-croatian guy. But everybody everybody at the meetings spoke English and so there was this Vietnamese translator Spanish translator and Lay Ocean translator and they just kind of sat and they're just making me feel so bad for the sign language interpreter who had to do our Our jeopardy event here in Seattle not long ago because phenomenal. Yeah I mean what? She was doing great work but she had to try to translate these jeopardy clues. You couldn't really hear and then all the stuff going on the screen plus the three of US riffing on them. She's like you really needed multiple interpreted to one person to jeopardy and you needed a whole cast of character right but yes so the smiley faces but like what's the lowest face you'll go eat at that restaurant because I all the time go to restaurants rattling at the face. And I'm like that's not that great but I'm here. It's it's very surprising. Doesn't seem to correlate with my own experience of the restaurant like sometimes like a just a food truck we'll have some super happy face and some nice place. We'll have some would rather be somewhere else. I tend to go to places and look at the thing and I'm like well. They probably had a bad day when the inspector was there and they've I'm sure they've cleaned up their accent. It's just a little lie. You Tell Yourself. These are meaningless. Probably sort of here for a reason in their people whose job it is to do this. I mean part of your brain is saying. There's not much of a sample size here. I'm just seeing oncein like if somebody had to come every day and put up right but the what we find great inflation. Is that even in systems like that. Those numbers are not always reliable. And this is reported most in the case of academia Yes specifically university grading as far back as one thousand nine hundred people at Harvard. Were observing that too many as and BS are getting are being given know. You can find teachers complain. But it's not clear that anybody thought of some social ill it may have been one faculty guys pet gripe and it's not lake. Academics are never old stuffy. Men with pet gripes. Is there an is there? An understanding that grades should fall according to a bell curve and that That the vast majority should be sees or is there some other idea of what the what the tonic ideal is I mean? That's the common sense idea right? I mean maybe maybe at a naive level you would think there should be an equal number of all grades. We should have twenty percent as these twenty percents enough. It's like a flat tax base. Because that's the Steve Forbes idea but in order to do that you would have to be grading on a curve for you would have to have a system whereby yes some people were getting as for sub-standard or at least not a work come. Moment's thought will reveal that there are more average students in the world then completely terrible students or remarkably gifted students right. So yeah you'd think it's GonNa be a Bell Curve. And therefore professor should be giving out a multitude of sees a lot of bees in dis and a few as fs. But there's a whole bunch of reasons why that falls apart on the university level. I mean first of all. You don't WanNa be flunking out twenty e. you're not dealing with the general population. They're already university has already taken in people. It thought could do well at it. University presumably so that gives people a little bit of a of leeway but the grave but in that case it would mean that their grades were being calibrated to the general population. That's the question. We're already smart. What does the C. at Harvard me at Harvard me in the same as an a at careful the San Diego State? Oh sorry so many letters from SDS yeah. They can't read and write busy surfing. Be Fine so the question becomes what does it mean at these higher. It's a different game than in an elementary school. Where you're basically it's Gen pop right and this is the idea of a gentleman. See Right the the the passing grade at the end of the day. No one cares what grades you got at Harvard. If you graduated you graduated from Harvard. No one's ever GonNa look at your transcript. Maybe but there's also today at least this kind of widespread knowledge that a lot of people get into Harvard by merit and a huge number of people get into a universities because their dad or GRANDPA deiter great grandpa dedicated a wing of the dinosaur museum. Mary into it. I don't know how many people's Grandfather's dedicated a wing to the dinosaur museum. That seems like a small group. Now you have to keep in mind here. The dorm computer has in mind when it matches people both of these together. There GRANDPA's donated the two weeks of the Dinosaur Museum. So there's something that pushes the other way. Which is students at a place like at an elite university? I don't know why I'm using Harvard as my whipping boy the whatever because they deserve it. They're the kind of people that would expect to never get anything lower than than sure. They all got straight as to get into Harvard and so in some cases there I see ever in their life might might come from Harvard if they were graded according to their peers. I had a C. Plus in high in junior high in home economics because my apron was a disaster and I deserved my C. Plus but I wasn't happy to see it. Their parents go down and raise hell no by parents who raised. Have I told this story on the show my mom? My mom went to one. My art teacher in third grade was giving me a hard time for not doing the assignment right. Or wherever my mom marched in with a series of pictures I had drawn at home of Star Wars characters and showed her look at this likeness of Han Solo. Like this is the kid. You're yelling at cracks me up because you were tracing those pictures out of a book. Probably no I'm a very gifted star wars artist but by think by high school they had eased up a little and let me sink or swim. Which I think is the right thing to do but that that did prepare me for eventually getting into hard classes in college where I was in stem fields. Where historically there's less gravely because it's quite clear you can read these differential equations or who can build this circuit or who can design this operating system. And who can't and so when I took an operating systems class and found it super hard and got see. I was emotionally prepared for this right at some of these but Harvard kids. But when you offered a critique of William Carlos Williams gotTa See. That would never happen kind. Nobody has ever gotten a C. In the humanities at any American humanities is we're often you see more of this creep and it's definitely a system that allows for more what subjectivity and more pushback from the student to say. Oh what you disagreed with my take on William Carlos Williams like you're not brave enough to give me a for this amazing work It becomes easier for weary teachers to be like whatever everybody gets an error. And it's I think wearing is a big part of it. I remember our when I went to Gonzaga University. There was a at the end of the freshman year a writing test to everyone in the school you were given a few props and meant to write essays and it was. I think a either either a standardized test or a way of just measuring the you know the the Basically the the the basic The means standard of writing at the college. And you know I've thought of myself as a pretty gifted writer and thinker even then and wrote this essay that I was so I'm so proud of you. Remember the topic. No no no it was just some you know some prompt like well. You know the Milagro Benfield wars. Whatever whatever it wasn't that but the kid on my dorm floor who was universally regarded as like the jovial jock dummy. Who who was you know he? He'd gotten in because he was a basketball player. Whatever and everybody loved him and it was not but no but he. He was the one that was constantly like would about everything. Got Four out of four and I got two out of four and we realize and we picked compared the the papers because everybody in the dorm was like. How is this possible? And what had happened. Was He had for the instructions? You know it was just. He did beginning middle end he he. He built his little thing according to what they wanted. And I had written this your owner well but I just I scanned the prom. I've listened to your show. I I am a very crystal clear idea how this war analysis went and a whoever it was that was grading it. I'm sure you know they're grading S- thirty five hundred papers that was probably a TA. Yeah it was. It was just like nope. You know. This intro didn't didn't address the question and I definitely. There are not three sentences in his topic paragraph developing the three paragraphs that are to fall if I had if I had cared. You know that's the type of thing I definitely would have gone and raised hell and then somebody higher up the chain would have read it and gone yes. I see. You're genius. That's fine okay. Whatever doesn't matter and instead the kid who cared actually got the good grades pisses me off. I didn't I didn't care at that point. I'm okay with this. I realized that because you know I I don't this is who don't care should not get good grades and Kenya's America. I don't know if you know this but I only got two as in all four years of high school what subject One of them was Ta- no no I got an F typing. It was newspaper I got. I got as in newspaper because I was because I love newspaper and I would sit and write. I ended up spending a lot of time thinking about our high school paper and I got my God is because the the newspaper. It wasn't even a teacher. He was the adviser and he was just like. Yeah I mean you're in here all the time working. You write a bunch of articles so same here. We are both students who were thinking more about the paper more than any class more than anything else but you got as and I was. I mean I just I got a lot of DS and FS in high school. I I this LASCA. Yeah can you imagine what that would be in the lower forty eight East High? Was a very competitive set. A lot of kids to the Ivy League is that true. Yeah Oh wow he's time was well you know the thing about it and this is a to your grade inflation topic or something about the topic. Okay surprises I. You know we have a a lot of friends who live in Brooklyn and I have a couple of friends whose teenage kids are trying to get into Ivy League schools from Brooklyn and it's impossible because gale or let's use Harvard as an example. Can't take six thousand Park Slope Kit? That's right they have they have a you know a ceiling on and there's only to be ten kids from park slow that are admitted if that and yet they have some slots for kids from Wyoming and Alaska and so if you get into Harvard from Wyoming you were you. Were all these kids. Were diversity. Hires because imagine how good it is for the campus to have some kid from Alaska? Walking around you can tell because he's got his Anorak. That's right bloody harpoon. Tried Bloody Harpoon. Diversity does play into this because sometime I. When was this late? Ninety s when academic grade inflation became an ingredient in the culture war. Do you remember this. Yeah it was the first the first kind of what became the away of besmirching. The millennials the young's that they they'd never gotten a bad grade. Everybody just patted them on the bottom got written about incessantly. I think because these kind of stories are catnip to the older audience reading newspapers which is stories about how the young people have an easier than you. It was the first Lord versus millennium like Culture War and I think generation X. This was one that we kinda sat out. We have good data on how grades actually have been inflated universities and the phenomenon Israel in one thousand nine hundred fifteen percent of grades given at American universities were as by one thousand nine hundred that had doubled to thirty one percent and by the two thousands early two thousands. It was up to forty three percent. Wow and it's been fairly flat. Since but on the average we now know that university grades in America Creep up about point one point one five points per decade knows that if you go back to nineteen eighteen was it only eight percent of people that have data. Were there even letter grades? Maybe there are faces back then but they all had. Are you saying boxers saying that in nineteen eighteen all universities evergreen? You just rated yourself future. Ling's in these challenging times. We want you to know that we're all in this together. Are you getting emails like this from everybody from every hotel you've ever stayed at for every company you've everybody? Usb Cable Front so exhausting. I don't care I it's not only do I not care that Delta Airlines wants to wants me to know about all the things they're doing but like the person that I that company. I bought an friendship bracelet for my daughter for one time two years ago. I don't I don't care. What their cove in nineteen response? I preferred it earlier and the epidemic when no one had really anything to say and so they were all just telling me they were monitoring the situation. Oh thank goodness. I'm so glad to hear that What Kohl's is monitoring events as they develop. I hope they keep me in the loop. What I what I want. Those emails to say is in these trying times. We realized that we had two layers of unnecessary management in our corporate structure and so we have laid off seven vice presidents and we have taken their salaries and increased our employee health benefits. I want I don't even want them to lay them up. I would actually like them to give them up to us to do as we will. Would you do a seven vice presidents I mean obviously I wouldn't get my own vice president as a country that only a company. They'll ask customers. Would you hook them to a sleigh? I would hook them. Yeah maybe they should have a raffle on Dasher. One of our customers gets all the surplus vice presidents who screwed up our supply chain with just in time accounting. I want one of those emails to surprise me though I mean Delta Airlines sent me one the other day that was like we're blocking off the middle seats so everyone is did that surprise you. There's a window seat and an aisle seat now. Why wouldn't you just? Yeah like that's how it always should have been. You should just had those big seventies lounge chairs instead of these these terrible little PORTA potties. What what would surprise you. What about a retailer? That's like Nordstrom. Now only sells like full body radiation. I mean the problem with retail is that I was already afraid. That retail was dying. And this isn't helping. What I want is to not return to normal. I know we have to return to some new normal but I don't want to get emails from people reassuring me that everything's going back the way it was because the way wasn't that great the way it was was clearly a problem. Yeah I would like especially big companies to tell me that. They have reorganized and that they have a new compensation package for their board of directors which is not so lucrative for them and I and I want there to be more working from home unless commuting and less I mean all the things that we all kind of keep hoping. Well we're speaking to our community John. What What outlandish promises would you like to make them about on our behalf? How about the omnibus in this new world we as creators of Omnibus in these trying times in this economy. We want you to know that we sympathize with you and that we're doing everything we can to continue to make our quality programming without really changing anything about our corporate structure. We don't have any vice presidents to fire the problem. We were already leaning mean. Ken and I are going to continue to have generous compensation packages as we for both of our lives. We continue to downsize our employees. The two of us. We are deeply appreciative. 'cause we know times are tight and we know. Some people are not at a place where they can donate to a podcast day. Like and guess what for you? The podcast is free as it always was we with our compliments like the New York Times during the corona virus. We are letting you listen to podcasts for free but unlike the New York all of our coverage is now free you can do the Omnibus Spelling Bee and the Crossword Embassy. Doku every day for free for those of you who have the good fortune to still be gainfully employed in a tricky economy. We know many of you do support the show and we thank you for that anybody who would like to contribute to the ongoing health of the omnibus can do so at Patriot dot com slash omnibus project. We are here for the duration and we would like to again reassure you. This is not the apocalypse that should be self evident by now. What it is is just a colossal mismanagement and and bungled job it's a bungled job of America survived. Many a political bungle jets right and also you know. This isn't the first time that That people have had to learn not to kiss bats. It's been a hundred years since the last time we had to learn this. That's right so I understand why you don't remember. It happens every once in a while. It seems like some unprecedented loss of certainty but really the message of the omnibus is that it's not it's really not. I mean just the Like just the presidential campaigns of Nineteen seventy-two should should be all the evidence. You need that. These are not the worst of times. We've seen a lot worse than to most of our listeners. That sounds about as distant as the Spanish flu. I don't know I don't know if that helps anyone but thank you thank you for your support of Omnibus. Thank you thank you. If you can support omnibus had omnibus no patriae on dot com slash omnibus and also do not vote for George Wallace in the upcoming election. Thank you know letter. Grade System actually existed before mount. Holyoke college rolled out in nineteen ninety-seven really so before then it must have just been you're assess. Yeah or maybe it was pass fail or maybe it was a note from the teacher with adjectives and was a letter grade system. It will because I think my dad used to talk about getting. He was afraid of getting e. Yeah a which was the lowest a-3 was more common and I think it was `ambiguities over whether he might mean excellent my elementary school had es and and you sure minded to excellent satisfactory needs improvement and unsatisfactory really. You had this dream because nobody else remembers. No yes Enin you when I went to elementary school in Washington. I had ESPN and you. And then I think you I think in Alaska. We had that too up until seventh grade and then after seventh grade went to letter. It's gotTa be some occult incantation where departments of Education. We're trying to as the old God hasn't so because he could look like excellent watt whereas if anything it was flunk fail the system got changed but all you can you can still change. F- to an e you know you're if you're one of those kids I was not. I never did the Ferris Bueller kind of I took pride in my fs. I never even did the. Don't bring home the report card trick. Which would've almost universally works sibling. Right ring parents. Don't remember when report cards are coming home do you. Can you explain briefly? Why we use a four point. Oh scale apparently in the early nineteenth century it was just descriptive adjectives that the university professors would give kid fine and the funny thing is planning my kids school system plentitude in my kids. School actually does give little sentences clearly boilerplate and as a result teachers will always choose the an-and ones so you get you get your kids report card back and it says Dylan works hard and is a joy to have in class. English Dylan works hard and having cloud so frustrated by those when I get them. I'm like you have one job teacher. Like right a little paragraph about every kid but in the early nineteenth century. Yale rolled out numerical marking system. And I guess too for some kind of examinations and it was a scale that happened to Yale's random choice to go to four appears to have dictated the rest of grading and at least American. Who's been slagging off Harvard but it it was Yale the whole time. It's all yells fault. And was it decimal related as it as it is now? I mean at some point. Somebody gave a three point five and then that that went crazy it started out. I think is just one two three four and you would say and you. It would be. Espn A new number one. The first their respective process number two and it was like it was like we'd like Dean's List. You'll see a list of which students were ones twos. Threes and fours and then I guess the dawn of science and the bigger classes than need to differentiate more students. I assume gives you the decimal grades but this became A really hot button issue in the the biggest the biggest rise appears to have been concentrated. In from the late sixties to the late seventies kind of there was a Vietnam era explosion in grades and the explanations for this time. Have yes like we're the generation that came out of this and the explanations for this fall on predictable sides of the culture war. There's somebody who's been very vocal about grade inflation. Harvard government professor named Harvey Mansfield which is perfect. Read a lot of his think pieces. Is that true? Well th there were. Are you getting him with every other crabby old white man at Harvard there were so many think pieces and editorials during this period? That you're saying that it was inescapable. Every time you opened a magazine there was somebody he would've thought it was the most important thing in the national culture right because we were what what was. What was the problem that we were raising a generation of super entitled kids? Who weren't GonNa do this? It's participation science was going to be bad. We're we're not gonNA kids aren't going to know if they're actually good at things. Kids aren't getting think the main idea is that the adversity this built in ideas. The adversity would've made them better right. And if if they never get a bad grade they just assume everything is awesome. When you're part of the team they forget how Fight Mansfield has exactly. Mansfield has been vocal about this. He often talks about how he now is forced to get his kids. Two sets of grades one for the transcript that nobody will bitch about and one that really lets them know how much they saw because he uses language like this debases our common currency. You know that every teacher who who gives more lenient grades is only ruining the system for everyone. It's just like people at a rock concert when when the ban takes the stage if the people in the front row standup they have ruined the show for everyone even as a musician like that. You're aware that the standing people are ruining this. Yeah Co the thing is from the stage you want everybody to. That's what I'm saying. I thought you'd before those people. Well you in a way but I love how it forms kind of a triangle widening backwards you know because if one person standing the people behind understand and then two people are studying so so it does get a domino effect. That also happens with grace. So what was the logic behind a? What's the theory while? Here's Mansfield theory. Which I'm sure you'RE GONNA love. This is the same era when affirmative action started letting minority kids in universities man felt bad giving the black students the bad grades that of course they would have earned from their less competitive upbringings. Should they didn't belong in Harvard in the first place? Why are they there anyway? I see so let me. Just go on the record as saying this race realism really troubles me. Sure because he I don't think he has any evidence for this but he's willing to tell the national review that it's all the black kids fault right. All we had to do is not let them go to college. The National Review then has a Harvard professor advancing this theory so they can report it dispassionately but still get it in the pages. I don't I couldn't find any study on actually where this would have started. And of course once they're giving an according to Mansfield theory once you're giving the minority kids the ballooned grades. Then you can't then give the white kids the worst grades right so I mean there's probably something to the fact that I mean there's a human element in all grading and in a case where the person grading knows the kids to any degree and this is probably more true in primary education. But you're aware of what the struggles are this kid's got a learning disability. This kid's got troubles at home. I mean some of the justification for affirmative action is that the bias inherent in testing and inherent in this kind of personal grading. Actually you know on grades. Yeah black kids or or minority kids. Because they're getting because the test doesn't their skill obviously thereafter once. They're at Harvard. Their natural aptitudes will will shine through. Mansfield is not a believer in this. Obviously so he's not going to let that happen but there is probably a broader. We're asking why at this time there is kind of a that was a that was a time when women were allowed into. Yale for the first time are you saying? That's that's robbery. That great but Mansfield would have also been appalled probably by he's Mansfield Mansfield ing right and left but this was the time when maybe there was less of an adversarial relationship between adults and kids specifically between teachers. You know this was the first time when a teacher would not have been like. I can't wait to tear this apart coming off of a doctor. Spock era of Parenting Ryan. Who are likely to be like. Where's this kid coming from? How can I validate this? Just because there was more of a collaborative printing was was more collaborative and less adversarial. I wonder how much it also was. The kind of campus politics of the late sixties made a clear division between cool teachers and uncool teachers and so there was this new generation of professors. That were like no man. I'm with the kids on this one and maybe to a fault and put put themselves in opposition to these like Whoa. You know. We'll give good grades. You know kind of the GNOME. Chomsky's are going to recognize. They're going to. They're going to be sort of politically inclined to say. Hey you kids you kids with your construction paper. Theses are are working outside the box. And so you're going to get as good a grade. As as somebody that is a walk in a grind once that division gets built into academia that there's two tribes with these two different kind of baseline approaches to grade or at least or at least kind of what surprises of bias. Then you have to pick a team starting in sixty eight. You would have seen more and more hipster teachers and fewer and fewer grouchy old teachers as that decade progressed but the pendulum started to swing back. When all these thinker wagging op-eds got written right universities had had to face the fact that they're not wrong grades had inflate an a was top top shelf work in nineteen sixty. And was you know anything above average in twenty eleven a Lotta humanities well and this was a perfect bugbear for the Reagan administration who was trying to unwind affirmative action and all that other at the same time you start to see what we're really grappling with today. Which is that this idea. One of the political spectrum that colleges are are worrisome. Right you know that this is where the kids go to learn. Terrible idea is a political correctness. That are ruining the culture. So you know any take suspicious of academia now will find a rabidly eager audience but do you but but in looking at the statistics and seeing this great inflation has a real phenomenon. Where you know. What's the current take on it because a lot of these cultural commentators now are also products of of this generational inflation? It may just be like like money where it's inherent in the system that value creeps downward numbers creep Robert. Because if you look at all the other venues where this is true you know. We mentioned online ratings like Yelp. It's true I've got a little list here. It's true cinema score for movies where people see a movie and then give it a letter grade. The average movie gets a B Plus on cinema score. That's why I feel like my job on my film. Podcast friendly fire is to always undercut these two other guys who are like four point five this is really created the golden age for contrary crank. Yeah and I'm like this is a three point two at best and then every all our fans hate me but again once the be plus idea that B pluses average gets baked in everybody rightly knows that a C. C. Movie is just terrible right so somebody like you proposing a more sensible bell curve. Just seems like they're coming from another planet it's true in the NBA slam dunk contest. One that is that a subjective rating. There's a series of it's like gymnastics. There's a bunch of judge and it's for and it's more subjective than gymnastics because there's people are doing crazy gimmicks every year. Stick your tongue out and and put the ball behind your back and really and it's super susceptible to crowd reaction or even showmanship feel like the tongue. Sticking out some weird little authoritative head. Nod might be good for more points than actually somebody who has much more elevation. Half of all dunks in twenty twenty. Where perfect fifties perfect fifties is this true at the Olympics in the Olympic Slam dunk contests? Well because Nadia COMANECI got the first four point Oh but first I perfect ten perfect and the system wasn't built for it like they had to announce it as a one point because they had not added the third digit and and so now in the Olympics do are there tens all the time. I think this is true in any sport with the judge although it's been tempered by actually assigning values to different elements you know but the thing about sports is also there is performance inflation in the case of grades in High School Americanized because you can see that grades inflated as Sat Scores. Went Down so you can assume you're not seeing performance inflation. But the fact is Jim this arguing better and better every year into a triple axel and then you have to triple axel the hardest part of the most valuable element. In three different gymnastics areas is now named after Simone biles who invented them all just in the last couple of years like in. This was an element that didn't exist. She's so extraordinary. It's just amazing to watch so in the area like that where you're seeing increasingly superhuman performance. Right I guess. It makes sense that there would be some inflation but now this is the thing with economics Zimbabwean ten trillion dollar bill at a certain point. They're going to devalue the Zimbabwean dollar right and ten trillion is going to equal one again. I was in Bulgaria when they devalued the labor and there were in circulation at the same time one Leiva bills and one hundred thousand live bills and everybody understood you tell. The Old Leiva was a was oath. Effectively hundred thousand. Yeah they they. Well it said one hundred thousand on them but also they were the bill right they were. The new ones looked different and they were made out of different material. That you're saying you could give somebody either a yes. One hundred an old one a bill or a new six digit later though the other way around right the like they were in. They were in circulation simultaneously. And you could pay pay for a cup of coffee with one hundred thousand liver or with a one lever just understood everybody understood that these were equivalent and that was that was like a super in your face. Example of this money doesn't exist right. Well then you know then you cross into Turkey and they had They had hundred thousand and million lira. Lira denominations still in circulation. I remember as a kid hearing about how in Italy one hundred thousand lire would buy you a cup of coffee and you know as a kid. You're just like wow hundred thousand or something like I could go to be rich. I didn't know what I was doing. I went to a cash machine and they were like. Would you like ten million fifty million one hundred million off? The problem is there's a psychological angle and a lot of these other arenas that I don't think I don't see come up with money like people. People in Bulgaria probably didn't care how many Zeros were after the note seemed fake you immediately standardized to. What's a dinner out what's utility bill and so forth but in the NBA? They couldn't just change it and suddenly it now. It goes to one hundred because you know the people having fun watching the top athletes in the world on some level. Nobody thinks it's a problem that half of them are getting. Because hey these are monster dunks but there is a there is a case last year where John Collins. There's a lot of showmanship. As I said his idea of a dunk was to jump over. It was the game was an all star game was in Charlotte North Carolina and his idea of a dunk was to jump over. A miniature replica of the Wright brothers Flyer Wall a bunch of men stood around in Tuskegee airman outfits to complete the aviation theme and Collins. Himself WORE A aviators ultime. Wright brothers leather cap and scarf to get a five point. Oh he he did not clear. The plane broke it in two places and still got a forty two that's that's NBA. Grade inflation even to even point out the psychological angle more fully. We have to look at the case of Maple Syrup. Are you aware that real maple circuits graded absolutely I have? I have a little bit of Birch Syrup in my refrigerator. Which yeah you know. Somebody who makes who birt's the connoisseurs. All claim that birches even better syrup lighter and more yes so there are surp- connoisseurs and even though Syrup is now greeted with a great aid. And that's the lightest clearest. Most expensive stuff often the connoisseurs will prefer the more amber darker grades rice the grade. It's kind of like dark chocolate where it's a a refined. Palette will appreciate the notes of whatever in the grade? B serve the flav. But the problem is nobody liked this idea that the stuff was being called. Grade B and so all of oil great infant. Exactly it's just like all so great inflation hit Syrup and now all SYRUPS ARE GRADE A. Everybody gets are all Serbs ghetto participation trophy. Let's look good. Is it well? They didn't then they have notes. This is great but it's light amber. This is great but it's dark and robust so now became becomes great darker us just because the psychological effective saying this is a B Syrup was depressing sales and prices so like money do you foresee or do thinkers foresee a time when these grades will either be devalued or the system will change like wire grades at Yale not now on a ten point scale rather than a four point scale it depends on the venue. In in the case of in the even in the case of Academia Princeton tried to set a numeric limit. Hey your department now only thirty five percent as Max and our work but at bummed out the students right so you're always gonNA face didn't stop them wanting to Princeton. You're you're always going to face that and often there's even more online at some point we can roll our eyes about John Collins. Getting forty two for the bad dunker all these privileged Harvard students having GPA. That might be over inflated hyperinflated but a life and death case is the case of rideshare drivers in you know. Uber will will Hit drivers with low ratings. Every every drive your every ride. You have the chance to rate your driver. And you know that unless you're a sociopath you're going to give them a five because everyone kind of knows that Uber will offer what they call profile deactivation two drivers that are not hitting their targets and it just depends on what the average is. So if the average in Atlanta's four point eight out of five which it is Uber will deactivate four point six driver. Whoa which means you. You lose your job and can't feed your family and Super Drivers have resorted to wearing shirts. That say if you're alive when you arrive that's a five. I remember sitting with a group of people in La one time and the We realized that the UBER APP allowed you to see your rating that's given to you by drivers. Yeah and so. We all pulled up our ratings and we're comparing them and those ratings were on a a pretty wide variation variation. I mean there were people that had fours as writers and we were all astonished to find that I have the highest rating of six people. All of them and this is based on what the driver thought of you already or what he thought of your rate with the driver thought of you at the end of a ride. Apparently they rate you as a passenger and I think if you have a low rating they can pass and I think they maybe they can. Can they see what ratings you've given because they would make sense for them to stop offering rides to the low raters? Well who knows? Joel I would expect you to be a five passenger. That's the thing I I love talking to Uber Drivers and apparently that shows up in my in my in my rating. I was reading about a lift driver. Who put a thing in the back of his car? Kind of like the elevator in Atlanta. That actually says tells you what each one means and four five says you know basically any right enforces. This drivers sucks fire. Him slowly does not mean above average too many of these. I may end up homeless so you have to look at that as this leads the newspaper. I'm sure because somebody took a picture of it. Yeah exactly it goes viral. This is a phenomenon that's been studied a lot in this in an economy where this is increasingly prevalent. People giving each of these direct ratings and in one academic study on what they call reputation inflation. They studied a company that the company is not named but from the in two thousand thirteen. They looked at. They got a decade of data from this company where people read each other and this company had both public and private reviews and they found out that fifteen percent of would give a bad private review but only four percent would give a bad public so fully eleven percent of those people. Were not willing to actually give a bad review. And so what you see is at first ratings. Were sensible in two thousand seven. The average vendor or whatever was getting three point seven four from this company out of five so an average score. But that's just mathematically there's some feedback process where that mathematically ticks ticks upward as starts to go upward people. Get a sense of what? The normal is in great accordingly so nine years later in two thousand sixteen hundred gone from three point seven four two four point eight five Oh and because people were willing to criticize privately but not publicly the authors of the study pine that it's all some perceived cost of a bad grade. That might just be the guilty feeling you get by saying something bad about someone. Had violates the thumper dictum of if you can't say something Nice don't say anything at all or possibly what if there's retaliation chemist person find out what I gave him and send me nasty emails? You don't see it. You don't see this phenomenon in light. Consumer reports type things where the recipient is inanimate. Like if you're grading a toaster or a Buick. That kind of up creep doesn't happen but a but a film it does because it feels like you are. I mean I guess. There's that cut sewing up to two art art project art because it's so subjective. I mean you see this. In ratings of bands I mean pitchfork. Very was really harsh in you would get these kind of you know. A pretty cool record would be happy to get a six point five and I think over time. That's but that proves that people can interior is the the different scale not be psychologically put off. I mean maybe. If you're the artist is still doesn't feel great again. Six Point Five. But if you know it's a pitchfork six point five that's exactly right. I mean you you would at first. You'd get a pitchfork review. Just be like Oh man. I hate those people. I mean that was your. That was your reaction. There's such snobs but then you realize everybody you know. Got Six point five. There's not you know. Some of the best records of the year didn't didn't meet their stringent criteria. I guess and then you realize the ones that did get great reviews were garbage and so they are garbage people there were. My guess is the root of this whole thing again doesn't have to do with any particular side of the culture war but is a broad psychological phenomenon. That's well understood in it's called. Illusory superiority people tend to believe. They're better than they are. It's also called the lake. Woebegone effect that Reference Garrison Keeler above all the children are above average in lake. We'll be gone. And that's a funny joke. About how we coddle our children and our children are special but it's really not inherent to particular generation or time people in general think. They're better things than they are if you ask. Here's a list of results. He asked people if they're better than average getting along with people again. Be Fifty percent. Eighty five percent of people think they're better than average getting along with others people about intelligence sixty five percent of people think they're smarter than average And there's a corollary called the downing effect Which says that people who are actually smart. Think there we'll grade themselves lower than they should and people who are actually done grade themselves higher than they should. I mean it's the definition of ignorance that you don't know how little you know. The first thing they should teach dummies is done. Yeah and then then they can work from there. I think Typically Future. Ling's are going to be a group of people that think they're smarter than average. We'll hold on before we before we predict. Okay let me do the rest of the numbers and then we should. We should end with that. I think you're right. Ask people if they're above average drivers seventy three percent and it gets way worse if you get into fields where People are trained to think authoritative experts. If you ask judges whether they're better than average ninety percent of judge think they're better than average eighty seven percent of. Mba's think they're better than average at doing business things whereas we know MBA's as a general class are eighty percent worse than the average business waste of DNA at least a real economic factors. I mean all these people trying to time and pick the stock market instead of buying index. The whole root cause of that is because eighty seven percent of them. Think they're good at it. Of course that number was twenty seven percent? They would just be like you know what this never works for me. Just by an index college professors ninety four percent of them think they're about average I. Can I can confirm that. That is not true. And this is my favorite computer programmers if they are in the top five percent of computer programmers fully. Third of them. Think they're in the top five percent? That's wonderful so I can also confirm that. Maybe that's a result of grade inflation. They've been told their whole lives. They were doing great so predict the future of reputation and grading inflation for our for our Far Distance News. Well you know the one that I come up against. The most often weirdly is that as a vintage clothing shopper and and like. I'm not I'm certainly not a connoisseur but but like an Aficionado. You got a good. I in men's clothes which are measured according to just a tape measure in one thousand nine hundred forty two a forty four long suit is still a forty four long. Because it's you know measured. That's that's a unit of length that forty four whereas in women's clothes. I A A ten in nineteen sixty is now a two or four zero like as women have as all Americans as people have gotten bigger though. Women's sizing has changed so that it's it's very difficult when you're shopping for women's vintage clothes to know to have any comparison to contemporary sizes. And I think in women's clothes even now you will find that if you are a fourteen that can mean six different things and basically you have to decide you know of like a twelve at J. Crew and twelve at an Taylor are super different. They mean completely different than that's the whole problem when you get away from the bell curve if you had a bell curve everybody who kind of understand. Oh this means Twenty percentile twentieth percentile or whatever but once it becomes more of a subjective and a tribal thing you know the kind of number you give then you wind up with this thing where it means something different in different arenas because Uber five might not be a lift five. The East German judges ten might not be the Canadian judges ten right and you know the dress barn size six might not be a banana republic size and I think a big at least the perception of it is that you know women prefer to be a smaller size so the grade follows the vanity. Is I guess this would be one problem. That would be solved if we're speaking to some kind of hive mind in and you probably don't compare to other highs because they're too far away right and you certainly wouldn't compare yourself to other members of the high slot not like my muscle cell cares if it's more strident than my cardiac cell different parts of the unit. I mean as somebody that's worked in restaurants and I started working in restaurants before there was a kind of universal expectation that people got paid twenty percent tip in fact fifty. I remember when fifteen percent tip came in because it had prior been ten percent was the standard kind of through ten percent down and then fifteen percent seemed like hey this is what we give for exceptional service but when I was young as working as a waiter. The tip was absolutely a grade right the diner. Yeah the diner graded you but when you're working in a restaurant there are waiters that are really busting. Be working hard and their waiters. That are sort of slacken. Can the diner tell the others? Waiters can the can the customer tell the other? Well sure I mean you know. The customer is like for some extra butter fifteen minutes ago. Where have you been but you know? Servers could tell within one another and and when when automatic tipping came in. Everybody was grateful to get the money. But you get that feeling like I've been working my tail off all day and that just kind of in the back smoking but we're both. There's not that it's not that big of a deal. Everybody would prefer to get twenty percent. But you don't you don't as often get that extra acknowledgement that that. You're doing a better job than the other people in your in your workplace. But if it comes from comparison it's a little bit toxic. It is but you know if you're a sales person and you're getting a commission that commission your pay is directly connected to your performance. All you need to know is am I paying bills. Not am I making more than sand? Well sure but how the human mind works. I don't care if I get a four point. Oh I just care that I get a better grade than maisy glut. I think this would all go away. If we get rid of numbers you know whatever. The cataclysm is our civilization also gets rid of math. You know this. I don't think he would have this if ratings were like. Hey did you find this guy? Did you find this service? Great Good Fair or POOR SMILEY FACE. Medium face frowny face dead face do you think? Do you think great inflation kicks in if it's because numbers just make it easy to divorce the actual quality from the from the criteria if the criteria are looking you right in the face and again. You have to say like yeah. The service was good. The service was fair. Took fifteen minutes when we stayed at that hotel in Atlanta. Did you give them a ten out? I had to the elevator told me to and that concludes grade inflation. Entry FIVE FOUR TO J B Zero. Eight zero seven number four five four one seven in the Omnibus Future. Ling's in the unlikely event. That grades still exist in your era. I'm GONNA give you all five out of five stars and I tuned still exists in their era they should totally reciprocate sure. Please rate and review omnibus like anything below five means unlistenable. Garbage pockets right. Let us give you five out of five tentacles five out of five a Turkey dinner squeezed packets for your contribution Social Media. Of course get say one out of five score from us. Facebook twitter and instagram are terrible although instagram's better at omnibus project although it's owned by facebook we don't need to get into this every time it's corporately worse it's aesthetically a little bit. They're all terrible. They'll mess up your brain. Is that what you mean? I mean they're all terrible in the way that. Pcp is terrible. Yeah that's right that's all I'm saying. Pcp isn't isn't bad in and of itself little thing it doesn't feel bad. Oh it's it's fine. It's Uh that are bad you can go to at Ken Jennings on twitter and Hilarious and Super Fun. Although I noticed the other day you made a joke about Rand Paul. And you've got one thousand angry replies from individual but didn't raise showed no you didn't because you got a lot of faith. I got I got like seventy I'm unreasonable. And now people love you get seventeen thousand pats on the head for my one thousand angry Breitbart. It's so annoying. How popular you are on that format bunch of suck ups. I think it really is great inflation because and you can hear you can see the mechanism is the the people who would give the bad review sloughing off because they're sick of my bs right and rightly so but the problem is you have all those followers. And I should have at least twice as many followers do. Please follow me and follow. John can keep following Ken. It's not I don't I don't WanNA ratio between us. I just want to have more followers than Jon. Wurster the drums. We should have equality of opportunity like figure out how many followers John would have if he won jeopardy. Yeah a million times and then follow accordingly. Yeah I don't mean I don't care if you like even use twitter sign up. I'm on instagram. Where I have a wonderful time can is just lurker there. Don't try to figure out which EG AVATARS can. I have a more wonderful time because I never have to post you. Can you can email us at the omnibus project at gmail.com and Ken will once every couple of months. Forward me ones that are directed to me if a patriotic most of them are just in praise of Ken. Patriot dot com slash. Bus Project. Is How you can support the show. Where extremely grateful for your contributions to help us keep this show on the air we. We continue to be delighted. Despite the incipient global recession people continue to appreciate the show to the tune of a dollar amount. Yeah which means a lot. It does thank you. We understand if it's not viable for you but if we thank you for your support we think go to our facebook Fan Group Future. Ling's also on read it and discord there are future links groups they are all maybe the best places on the Internet. They redeem facebook one hundred percent they cannot redeem read it however and you can mail. Us things including subscriptions to tractor magazines or Zimbabwean currency at Po box. Five seven four four shoreline Washington. Nine eight one five five listeners. From our vantage point in the distant past we have no idea how long this human civilization survived. We hope and pray that they catastrophe. The're may never come if the worst comes soon however this recording like all reportings was maybe our finally but the providence allows we hope to return to assume with another entry on the.
Solving the Climate Crisis, Preserving Biodiversity and the 6th Extinction with Emma Marris
"This is Tony Oscar. God knows and we are Spanish Aki presents. We have a brand new podcast here on ear wool and we'll be bringing you the best of the heart of ladder next comedy join us for new episodes every Tuesday God. I'm out of this present his out now listen in stitcher apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast equal hello and welcome to factually I am your host Adam conover and look everyone loves national parks. We love him so much. That Ken Burns made a documentary miniseries a series about him called the National Parks America's best idea and everyone agreed. I mean going to the Moon Blue Jeans representative democracy those were just good ideas leaving some trees and rocks alone. That's our best idea and look if you've ever been into one amazing and inspiring they can be but strangely. The way that we think about these places is completely off base. Our conception of national parks is that those are parts of the country we've somehow preserved in their natural state untouched by humanity but actually that's not true at all take yellowstone one of the jewels of America's National Park System. The home of the great guys are old faithful pristine waterfalls bison elk and grey wolves a place where you can step back back to a time before people and explore the wonders of untrammelled wilderness all on the back of kitchen snow mobile right well actually that notion is kinda completely false. The natural landscape you see in yellowstone is in fact entirely really shaped by humans first of all humans have been living in and around yellowstone for at least twelve thousand years from the prehistoric clovis culture to the Nez perce crow and Shoshoni tribes of the nineteenth century. We're talking twelve millennia. That's let's nearly fifty times as long as the U._S.. Even been around and over those many many years the native people didn't just stand around marveling at the land they transformed it. They hunted mastodon other huge mammals to extinction they said controlled fires which replenish punish the lands nutrients and they drove gain into areas where they'd be easier to hunt the humans who lived in yellowstone for thousands and thousands of years where it's mystic caretakers of a static ever replenishing nature they were the Goddamn Apex Predator they affected the place fundamentally and that's why European explorers who came to yellowstone in the nineteenth century reported that it was something of a managed landscape with few large animals and open forests but once Europeans colonized the area area everything changed again over the nineteenth century native peoples were pushed out through disease dislocation and murder with the result that Yellowstone's ecology was once again transformed with native Americans gone the forest became increasingly dense and enlarge animals that were once rare returned but when tourists came to yellowstone they didn't know that they saw this dense forest with an abundance of large animals that was just a few decades old but they declared it it ternal unchanging and natural natural even though it was a complete historical anomaly but that unnatural landscape became the vision of yellowstone that we have today or take the Amazon not the website. That's a different episode. I mean the rainforest forest which if you were to ask someone for an example of untouched wilderness they might name as being one of the last wild places on earth but in reality people have been living in the Amazon for thousands of years and they've had a continuous impact on it through hunting farming and using material to build their homes so taking altogether. It's hard to know what the word wilderness even means today given that scientists believe that we now live in a new era called the anthropology seen that is defined by human impact on natural systems in such a developed human impacted world. The idea of nature in the Wilderness represents a chance to escape to us to experience an idealized pre human landscape. That's why nature is so important to us but the truth is there is no more untrammelled wilderness there simply is not a single place on earth untouched by human impact and this is so profoundly upsetting revelation. It makes us feel somehow like the game is already lost. Its fuel for the darkest pessimism but does it have to be. Is it possible that we're just thinking about nature the wrong way and that by adjusting our conception we can enhance our ability to protect and cultivated it well to help answer. This question is our guest today. Her name is Emma marriage. She previously appeared on the episode of Adam Ruins. Everything entitled Adam Ruins Nature. She is a wonderful environmental journalist and thinker her writing has appeared in the Atlantic National Geographic Perfect and the New York Times and in her twenty thirteen book Rambunctious Garden Saving Nature in a post wild world and I am so excited to have her on the show because more than anyone talking to her has helped me come to terms with what it means to love nature in a world that is so radically radically shaped by humans. Please welcome and there's an thank you so much for being on the show today <hes> from I know we have an interesting recording setup because you live in the woods which is very fitting or way out in the in the wilderness. I believe right well. I live in town called Klamath falls so I live in town but the town itself is kind of nestled in the mountains and not close to anything or any radio stations so we're so we have a little bit of Jerry rigged recording setup but I find that very fitting <hes> for your line of work. I WANNA start by talking about as we're recording this just this morning when preparing my notes for this interview and this episode won't air for a little bit so if you're hearing this now I'm speaking about the past but as as we're recording this a new report just came out from the United Nations about how drastic our impact on the natural world is the New York Times reported it that <hes> the average abundance of native planet animal life has fallen by Winnie percent or more over the past century and with a human population passing seven billion activities like farming logging poaching fishing and mining or altering the world at a rate unprecedented in human history and they go on to say that we you know scientists go on to say that we can't stop this from happening. All we can hope to do is slow it. I think when we read stories like this are first reaction is that it's profoundly depressing because the environmental ethos so so that we were brought up with at least that I was brought up with the sort of Captain Planet Mindset from the Eighties Nineties was that we should be trying to protect and preserve the natural world in its natural state that affecting it is bad and that we need to to avoid it and we are now hearing over and over again that we are doing it on a massive scale and we're doing it just by the activities of living just by farming food and clearing land for places for humans to live it seems very disheartening and I woke up a little disheartened having read about it. I just WanNa know what your reaction is. Yeah I mean I I too am disheartened by these reports and I do this for a living. You'd think I'd be Eh Numb to this by now but I'm not and and you know in past year or two we've had a series of startling findings and reports on climate change on species abundance declines on on this rate of extinction and they can be such a bummer that I you know that some people just get overwhelmed and think we've messed this up. It's too late. There's no point in even engaging in this anymore. I'm just GonNa worry about other things. I'M NOT GONNA try to fix this because it's too late to bad and I think that that's something that I really worry about because all of these issues can be made less bad if we act you know now an act appropriately apparently in really put our product shoulders to the onus right. <hes> you know this is something that I learned in the episode of Adam Ruins everything we did a called Adam Ruins going green a couple years ago from the climate philosopher Dale Jameson who really helped me think about this differently that is always a mistake to say well. We've got one chance left to save the planet and if we don't take it all his lost and we might as well give up the choices always we have the choice today to at least take some steps to make a better tomorrow that an improvement is always possible and that sort of nihilistic giving up is never the correct choice yeah that's right and I think that it's really tempting for people who are trying to draw attention to these issues issues to use the kind of were words that brings to mind thresholds or cliffs or you know ultimatums most recently pretty recently and people have been talking about. We have twelve years to solve climate change but when you talk like that what if we don't solve it in twelve years. Do we all just go down some sort of Nihilistic Mad Max road. No I e can always be every day is appointed inflection. There's no real threshold every day. We can choose to make things better or worse going forward right right that twelve year number. I've heard that a lot can be effective as a goad when you say you're elected representatives. Hey we have twelve years left. What is your plan? Present us with your plan now. We want to hear something. That's going to turn this around in twelve years. That's a great way to spur action but when you you don't want later six years from now going like Oh we we're not gonNA make those twelve years. It's going to be thirteen years instead. You don't want to have people give up as a result of that and also twelve years is kind of a long time for an elected representative should be really like we need to fix this in two years or four years of the average. What are you going to do while you're in office exactly and and if we waited eleven years to do anything things would be a lot worse than if we started fixing things today so it's always always earlier as always better than later and more is always rather than less and it's it's kind of a big linear option space? It's not the threshold or mostly rhetorical well well. Let's move from talking about climate. Change was unsure is GonNa come up repeatedly throughout this conversation and moved to our understanding of nature in general the big revelation for me over the last few years as I've read about this in various various books and as we crafted are episode about Adam Ruins Nature is really that the idea of nature as I had conceived of it. My whole life is somewhat false that humans are affecting nature on a global wholescale everywhere on earth. There's there's really no such thing as a pristine natural wilderness anymore. Even when you go for a hike in the woods you create a corridor of impact on either side of the hike where you know there's less animals and plants dance stretching off into the area that you're in so even just by going out and looking at nature and experiencing it we affected and since I was brought up to revere and to WANNA protect nature that's extremely depressing it. It makes it seem like <hes> there's nothing left to save and when I encountered your work it really helped me reconfigure my notion of nature into a way that I felt was I was a little bit more positive and more productive so I'd like you to talk about how we can go about doing that. Yeah I mean you know that's so you talk about about affecting the nature on either side of the trail. I could see how that makes you nervous or it makes you sad but on another another we look at that is that the nature that you're walking through on the trail is itself the product of thousands of years of human influence right all of North America has been influenced by human activity for thousands of years ever since the first people came here fifteen thousand years ago right so when European settlers got here they tended to take a look around at whatever they saw the classified as sort of pristine untouched nature generally speaking what they were seeing was some sort of very consciously Chesley managed system <hes> you know we're plans had been moved around and we're burning was taking place and where hunting was taking place in with certain rules attached until on so they were already looking at sort of like a managed humanized landscape <hes> <hes> and then conservation kind of became this strange creature where we were trying desperately to save what <hes> we perceived as wilderness but what was actually a human creation. If you really WANNA find pristine nature you're GONNA have to go back like twenty thousand years glacier on top of most of North America right but the idea of conservation that we you know I certainly grew up with dates back to you know John Muir and figures like that is that hey this this is we want to find the areas that humans haven't interacted with at all we wanna Corden them off and let them grow all by themselves and and you know it will really be a preserve like we'll put it in a little bubble sort of and and this is what it looked like when the dinosaurs were around up until the present day and it hasn't been you know it hasn't been touched by human hands. It's almost like the surface of the moon or something and that ends up being such a false way of looking at the natural world that it can really be harmful to our efforts efforts to preserve it yeah and also harmful to the people who lived there before I mean a lot of natural national parks have the same kind of hidden history of kicking out indigenous people to make it into a park and then sometimes like for example with the you mentioned John Muir and one of his favorite places in the world was Yosemite which he saw as a sort of a completely untouched you know he felt that the people who are living there were just sort of just living on top of the landscape they weren't really affecting it but then once they kick those guys out to make it into a park a lot of the beautiful flower meadows he really loved started getting turning into forest because nobody was burning them off the very people who'd created the landscapes he loved had been forcibly removed and so they weren't there to maintain them and he didn't realize that he didn't have an awareness that that's what he had done that he had actually changed the landscape that he loved so much. I don't think so I mean he really saw as many people many white people of his time saw he saw native Americans as sort of ineffectual landscape and I think part of the reason that that I mean part of it is straight up racism but part of it is because oftentimes when European settlers got to a place diseases had gotten their first I and so what they often walked into a much reduced population that was coping with this huge trauma of having smallpox or whatever having come through <hes> like up in the Seattle area when Captain Vancouver. I got off his boats. He actually noticed that there were a bunch of abandoned. Villages trees growing up through them because everybody had already died of smallpox before boats even got there right. I read about this in the incredible book fourteen ninety one by by Charles Man <hes> that talks about how <hes> there were population of North America was actually much huger than those original European settlers thought because what happened is a first the first few exploration parties that came went and saw Oh my God the shores are teaming with people. There's like entire cities here but but then they would bring disease with them and they leave the disease would spread like wildfire throughout those communities and kill literally ninety percent shoot huge numbers of those people but then it wasn't another until what a few more decades later that all right or in some in cases like more than one hundred years later really that Europeans would send their settling parties there colonists and when the colonists got there they were like Oh that's weird. I understand what that explorer was saying about. A short teaming with people because looks like there's only a couple of native Americans are sort of you know all living living in harmony with nature whatever they don't live in villages there just sorta hanging out because almost all of them had been killed by these diseases right exactly I was just in San Diego so giving a talk and so two research that I was looking up what the Kootenai people how they used to manage the area down there in San Diego and not only were they planting fields of green and burning and moving desert plants to the coast. They were even doing hydrological manipulations. They were like creating these huge rocks structures to retain water so that could have you know I mean big stuff so I think that it's been only in the last couple of decades that conservation as you even really started to wrestle with the with the legacy of all of this you know and a lot of places assist they still are kind of trying to conserve the way it looked when the first settlers got there was so where did we get this idea of nature. You know real nature being something that's pristine and untouched by humans is that an American idea to begin with John Muir or is different than other places. Yeah that Will Nature Human Duale dual ism thing is a very much a western concept and most non western societies <hes> human see themselves as one animal among many with a role to play an ecosystem and and and there's been a lot of scholarship about a wear exactly this originally comes from there was influential paper that suggested that Christianity was responsible for this kind of division between in humans in nature. I think that that's it's a complicated. I should certainly it's a very is a very western idea this idea that if you touch nature or influence it you degrade it automatically by your very touch and and one thing that I try to do in my work is get Western people people with Western mindsets to think about ways in which humans could change nature in ways that would be good which rice sounds like heresy to a lot of people at first but I think it's you know a lot of cultures have positive relationships with other species. Could we possibly have relationship with other species where we're not just killing them yeah and when you've been brought up with a worldview like I was brought up with that humans are bad ad in our interactions with nature I that seems almost cynical and negative that like okay. We can't save anything so we're just GONNA G._O.. Engineer you know the world in order to in order to fix our mistakes but then once you realize that you know we're going to affect nature no matter what we do and that instead of trying to avoid having an impact we can have we can try to have a positive impact that does seem like a more optimistic and less fundamentally MISANTHROPIC anthropic view of the problem that we're no longer saying. We're no longer hating ourselves. Were were trying to say how can we have a positive effect. Yeah and I think you know just to to add a little bit of caveat to that too I do. Do you think that it is important to have places where we don't fiddle around with nature where we just sit back and watch <hes> because I think we can learn so much from that and also that'll just give us a kind of hedge our beds in case the fiddling that we're doing another places is is not successful Russell but to be clear those areas that we don't actively manage are not gonNa look like they did when the first settler showed up they're going to change a lot because the climate is changing and species are moving around and <hes> so they're going to be very unfamiliar very quickly but I do think it is important that we have some areas that we just really do let kind of go wild <hes> but then in other places you know I think almost have an obligation. Take something like White Bark Pine. which is this beautiful high? My altitude tree that grows on the West that's in incredible danger because of introduced diseases and and beetle outbreaks and a lot of the tree grows and wilderness areas so there's been this huge debate about whether you should you'd try to plant rest resistant White Bark Pines and these wilderness areas or whether that would not be okay because we're humans and if we plan to tree it no longer as wilderness and is sort of think I think we you just can't afford to be too precious about wilderness for the if you know we risk losing an entire species of tree I think we we we go out and we plant the rest resistant trees and we cross our fingers right. I mean there's the example I'm actually I'm reaching back into my memory about this. So maybe a correct like me on the details but I know I is the American chestnut which is a long beloved tree that was almost wiped out by <hes> blight that was brought as an invasive species. I believe the blight was was brought was brought over from overseas and for the last a couple of decades. There's been like this effort to create a blight resistant version of the tree through a breeding and I suppose genetic engineering perhaps in order to repopulate it which that sounds like a very clear example where yes that's what we should do because we otherwise this species is going to go extinct and this was a part of America's natural history for for so long that seems like a case where yes we should definitely do that. Although there are definitely groups that oppose that there are people especially because there's a lot of these there people who oppose specifically using genetic engineering to create a light resistant chestnut just just because they feel that somehow genyk insurance always bad and I have to admit I do feel a little frustrated with that attitude because the alternatives are either no chestnuts or you could cross breed them with Chinese chestnuts but then like half of the genes would be non-native where you do the genetic engineering when you're talking like one gene out of millions and the IT'd be ninety nine point nine percent native American chestnut but they would prefer to go fifty percent non. It just doesn't logically consistent to me <hes> but I think that's because this year real difference in in that tool as opposed to conventional breeding and I don't see a big philosophical difference between conventional breeding genetic modification yeah no neither would I mean at this point. We're talking about in humans manipulating the dino types of species through one means or another and we're we're the ones doing it and whether we're doing it through crossbreeding or through I mean you know and and modern horticulture is like extremely artificial with graphs after all these different high-tech ways of of breeding these plants. It's just it seems like one tool among many and that's the point at which when you're trying to divide I think there's a good example of how when we try to divide humans from nature we end up having to split hairs in these ways that ultimately ended up being arbitrary and get in the way of of US actually protecting or cultivating the things that we care about yeah. I I think that's right. I mean if there's a there's a grand theme through all my work. It's that beware of pure ISM right like when you're to purist about what you're nature's GonNa look like sometimes you risk losing it. There's a famous case of the dusky seaside sparrow in Florida where they had so few of these little birds laughed that the only option to keep their sort of gene pool alive was to hybridize them with a related species and fish and wildlife was like no that would create something artificial artificial something new that wouldn't be natural so they just let it go extinct. It's gone now. Let's talk about what this sort of different perspective can do for our lives on a day-to-day basis one of the things that really struck me about spending time with you know you came to our sets in Los Angeles. We shot for two days. We shot in Griffith Park. Which is the large urban park here in Los Angeles in many ways? It's it's an urban park very different from like central park which is extremely cultivated griffith park. A lot of times just feels like Oh. Here's a hillside that L._A.. County just decided not to build anything on and just sort of like left alone like large parts of it are just like all right. Here's some scrubby scrubby hill with whatever happening on it and and then we also went to Echo Park which is echo park lake which is a very cultivated city park right in the middle of East side Los Angeles and the whole time that we were onset together. You were pointing out species left and right. You're like Oh look. Here's a here's this tree. Here's a hawk. Here's a etc etc and that wasn't something that it ever occurred to me to do right like I've never thought of these sort of hybrid urban spacious spaces as being anything wreck areas or or you know being particular natural spaces but one of the things that your work really does. I love the way you talked about this in your tedtalk which I recommend our audience goes and watches <hes> you talk about how much nature there is to be found right under our noses even in an empty lot we can find nature right in front of us right yeah and and to be clear you know we don't have to you know embracing. The nature in the empty lot are in scruffy urban park does not mean that we don't want to preserve and protect this sort of big fancy national parks or that. We don't want to <hes> go visit them on vacation. I'm all for that up. I drag my kids to drag my kids like every national park in the West <hes> but I think that we can add to that this really exciting thing which is that we're surrounded by nature all the time every day but because we've been sort of trained to only look for nature in the high value fancy nature parks we often just it's just becomes part of background blur and we don't really have a relationship that we could have with it so I'm sitting in my house right now so I'm like I said even though the towns in the mountains I'm in town and I'm looking at the window at my crab apple tree and there's all these robbins hopping around in it and you know Robin is a really common bird see a lot in cities but it's like a remarkable beautiful overgrown grown strache with this amazing colored Braxton this huge migration and you can learn all about how many eggs they have and figure out how charter try to find their nests and we just forget to do that <hes> and that really affects how we manage our own local spaces. You know if if we're not it struck me that if we're not seeing you know the the trees right outside our windows you know the street trees in our city as as an example of nature then we're not going to be as vociferous about protecting them when you know someone's trying to tear them down to <hes> build a parking lot or whatever that that you know we often neglect to protect the nature that's right in our own backyards which is the nature that we get to interact with the most often and especially for folks who say live in the city and don't have the wherewithal to make their way out to Yosemite once a year. There's a lot more that we can do to cultivate nature right here at home so that all those folks access it yeah. I think that equity point is really important right so so there's a certain sort of demographic that that makes it out to the parks and that has the gear and has an R._e._i.. Number <hes> and then there's a lot of people in this country that that don't and so a lot of times they will that nature isn't is just not for them then <hes> you know there's often the for example these really well-meaning programs to take a urban youth and take them out to these rights so they can experience nature but then when that program is over there bust the buses drop them back off in their neighborhoods and the message that they're getting is like well. That was your dose of Nature for the next twelve months <hes> I've much would prefer to see program where are and these programs do exist where kids in the city are shown. What are the species that are growing in my neighborhood? What are these birds <hes> that are flying around my neighborhood? If I go down to the creek or the the coldest aker out behind the coldest soccer out behind the big box store her. What are these flowers? What is this? What is this bird out here because then they can have that relationship in that interaction every day right like in a lot of the ways those are often the natural spaces that I find signed the most bewitching anyway like one of the first places you know I'm reluctant transplant <hes> to Los Angeles <hes> but I've been trying to find the things I love about and one of the first places places in Los Angeles that really captivated me was the L._A.? L._A. River because the L._A.. River for those who don't know was a sort of <hes> formerly you know as L._A.. was being settled this very very variable and crazy river that would you know leaping over its banks and flooding places and so the I believe the Army Corps of Engineers turned it into a channel just this concrete channel on both sides and you almost never see you drive over and it's on the side of the Free Way <hes> sort of looks like this in a lot of places this sort of gross ditch and people make fun of it all the L._A.. River you know that's that's that's. It's the river we have in L. A.. We don't have a nice one. We've got this weird crappy thing <hes> but I went down there at first after I came to L._A.. Because I was looking for a place to go on a long run and there was a little path by it and I realized that in down in the middle of it there was this incredible credible weird ecosystem where you know it's it's just a couple dozen feet across but like I guess dirt had collected in the middle and trees had started growing and you know just weird random plants in the middle of this sort of concrete Crete channel and I saw I felt like waterfowl I saw Herron. I duNno I duNno which is which but I saw I reasonably sure it was a Goddamn Herron like you know take off and like fly fly over my head. I was like transfixed by this and in the years since there's been a big effort just to get people involved in that space there's now you know there's a group that got it certified as a river that you know they can lead kayaking tours down and I took a kayaked wants to L._A.. River Renoir. I told you that there were like you did is that possible like yeah and it was really pretty. There are parts where you even forgot your in Los Angeles for a second and then of course there were parts where you're like. Oh there's there's some like some refuse floating around or whatever but they're they're also honest to God wildlife there air and that's a place that thankfully L._A.. is trying to cultivate and trying to turn into more of a place where we can go and interact with nature to some extent and it's it feels like that's the kind of pattern that could have so much power of we were to use that throughout our communities yeah totally and I think that in the in the past conservation organizations often just pretty much ignored cities and it makes sense. They don't have them a lot of money so they were really sort of trying to figure out how can we use our money to save biggest possible areas with the most species in them to they're not gonna WanNa mess around with urban real estate prices or anything like that but I think in recent decades there's been shift and a lot of these big conservation organizations are realizing that if they want people to continue to care about nature in the future and to donate to their organizations and to go and and vote for their proposals they need to have some kind of personal relationship with nature churn so they're investing in biodiversity in the city is a really good long-term play up not only for these conservation organizations but for everybody's happiness and joy <hes> and so yeah the L._A.. River is a great example that a lot of other really big cities have similar stuff going on you can you can you can forget what kind of if it's a canoe or a Kayak but you can get on the water on in the gauntness in New York. Yes you can get in a kayak in on the Duwamish River and Seattle. I've done nat which is a superfund site but it also has herons and Salmon <hes> so you know wherever you live. There's probably somebody who's WHO's kind of really getting into this in your city and a little bit of digging you should be able to find find signed this this kind of energy where you live and that's I think really exciting. Yeah I mean I'm I'm struck by you know even even in New York City which is obviously one of the most developed <hes> landscapes in the country that you know urban bird-watching watching is like I know to be a big hobby New York. I've never done it. I now regret that I didn't while I lived there but that's the sort of thing that we can go participate in order to sort of reconfigure this relationship I saw some kind of illegal woodpecker Pecker last time I was in battery park so it's it's. It's definitely an alive place and you know New York is also the home of the high line which is a complicated beast heart was <hes> you know the kind of the genesis of it really sprang from to refresh us on what it is for those who who don't know Oh yeah so the high line was originally an abandoned elevated train track that that was sort of off limits to the general public and accumulated some soil and accumulated some <hes> what people call spontaneous vegetation which my favorite phrases. It's a really interesting mix of weeds that we're just growing up there in the sky came and let me let me break in and say when I I moved to New York City in two thousand five or six <hes> that was before they had developed it and people were it was still an urban exploration destination and me and my one of the first thing we didn't New York was break into it or hop the fence or whatever was as we had to do and walk it and it was really incredible because it was this is one of my favorite things I ever did. In the city it was this abandoned freight rail system that was used to bring goods to and from different factories but yeah just accumulated this soil and these this strange collection of like weeds and it was a well. I don't want to say weeds because you know in this context. They were just plants but it was a really magical place because it was it felt like a truly wild place in the middle of the most developed city on earth because no one was managing it and as a result it was like attracting all of this nature to it right and that sense of magic is really what got the constituency around it to kind of push for it to be turned into a park and and then sort of paradoxically in order to make it apart that ever could access they had to pull out a lot of that spontaneous meditation and then landscape the heck out of it with this you know unarguably beautiful landscape design that is kind of informed along to buy or inspired by the spontaneous vegetation but in most mo for most of the length of pioline is now completely managed so it's kind of interesting beast but I think that that <hes> that acknowledgement that feeling that you had with your buddies climbing in there that is a powerful force and that's it's not that different from from the sense that you got when your kid if you found an empty lot or and he started to build a cabin there with a clubhouse with your friends you just dug a tunnel through the blackberry bushes that kind of wild energy in the city has inspired so many people to go onto careers and conservation and maybe they end up protecting yellowstone uh-huh stone or something like that but a lot of times there you know they kind of fell in love with nature in some kind of we'd patch is described you yeah I mean I grew up in Seattle so I thought that nature only was old growth forests tests that I could have that I kind of occasionally visited with my family car camping and <hes> we used to my dad used to like heat up <hes> canned corn beef hash on the engine block but for most of the most of them when we were on these special camping trips it was running around in city parks and empty lots and picking trying to make perfumes out of the we'd weedy flowers that I saw growing around and it wasn't isn't actually until I was it well into my twenties that I kinda connected these two things together as one that they weren't separate that the beautiful Olympic peninsula rainforests was nature but so were these weedy patches that I was clanging us at child that they were all part of the same interconnected hole and that you know you manage them differently and you interact with them differently but they're all part of the same thing well. 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My listeners can get a full Fremont of unlimited access when you sign up today using my special U._R._l.. The great courses plus dot com slash. Factually that's the great courses plus dot com slash factually back with Emma marriage. Thank you again for for being here so we were just talking about how our personal relationship with the natural world can become so much richer when we sort of abandoned this human nature dichotomy dichotomy and stop thinking of ourselves as separate and start seeing oh my gosh there's nature all around us that we can be protecting and cultivating right in our own backyards and that's a wonderful message but I want to get back to talking about how that can change change our species level relationship with the planet that seems to be in such dire circumstances. I mean again. We're hearing there's horrible. New reports coming out from the highest levels of science and government every single week about the the enormous impacts that were having <hes> you know the the issue of climate change is is thankfully coming more and more to the forefront <hes> but it's very frightening it often seems like the the job of protecting nature is is to vast to to handle and so i WanNa talk about ways that re again reconfiguring our mental relationship with the natural world can result in better planetary and climate stewardship on our parts. Yes so I mean that's that's. That's the big question. How do we had we are tiny? Little lives are aunt's like lives. How do we even even begin to be part of the solution? And how do we not get completely overwhelmed by the bad news so one one kind of minor thing is that having this relationship daily relationship with nearby nature is away where you can kind of refreshed yourself often kind of get get energy back. Give you spend the whole time fighting climate change in the abstract you gotta you gotTa keep going back to the source and remember why you're in the fight at the first place and that if you could go and do a five-week backpacking trip to reconnect that that's great but for most of us that's probably not possible so being able to do that by knowing the species of St Tree that you pass everyday on your way to work is also a way to kind of reenergize yourself but then getting this is sort of like how we tackle the big problems so you can kind of break it down I I would say into climate change and and the sort of species and abundance problems so one thing I think is really important when you see these reports about species and I and plants and animals declining is to make sure that when you're reading report that you clear in your mind whether they're talking about extinctions of species or reduction in abundance so they're both problems but there but they are a little bit distinct so <hes> three fairly recently there was a bunch of news about insect declines most terrifying and most of those papers are about pure numbers like the if you drive through a field in Germany you have fewer insects hitting your windshield than you did a generation driving through a field. I hope you wrong side of field agricultural area yes but <hes> and that that can mean that there are extinctions going on but it can also just I mean that you're seeing these big decreases in abundance within species that are still existing and of course if as long as something isn't extinct that means we can increase its abundance part of the all not lost this message here right. You know if species numbers are going down then you can usually figure out through science was causing that and you reverse that and then those numbers can go back up so these abundance declines are reversible <hes> and often what's causing them to decline. It's not the same everywhere and islands for example are very special case but awesome what's causing them to go down. Just simply that humans are taking up all the room that we are using a lot of the habitat for our own purposes <hes> often to grow food or to <hes> raise animals to eat <hes> and partly also to have cities and places to live but really are agricultural footprint is a lot bigger than are like living presidential footprint grant so it turns out that a lot of sort of addressing abundance and declines and the extinction problem it has to do with reforming agriculture so I care about species and I care about abundance abundance of species and so I spend time reading scientific papers about fake meat beef production for example is one of the biggest land hogs on water hogs out there and so if we could replace a a lot of the beef that we eat with sort of either protein plant protein that tastes beefy like the possible burger the beyond beefburger give them both don't don't pick a favorite of the two of them. They're locked in a deathblow competition for America America stomach companies to mix because what we really need is like a really you know. We need these I mean I think they're awesome products but but this and I'm really excited at how quickly this sector is taking off <hes> Burger King now that's that's that's accomplishments few years ago I would get into lots of debates with people about will people ever eat this stuff and I was always like people will eat it. I mean people eat chicken mcnuggets stuff and it's not a small thing for those products to be in fast fast food because <hes> you know McDonald's Burger King's buying decisions affect the entire supply chain. I think there was a forget exactly the details were but McDonald's was mulling or did decide to make a change in in what sort of exit would buy and that affects you know the how eggs are produced and how those chickens live and you know what impact they have on the environment on a massive scale because they're buying so many of them so if you know Burger King is buying you know a huge number of impossible burgers that's going to affect act agricultural wide-scale yeah totally and so these kind of shifts are are the exact kind of thing that we need. You know I mean that that's just one example but but also just other sort of in some ways it this is about using technology to shrink our footprint so there's just more room on the plan for other species right. I mean speaking of how much of a resource hog beef is our terrestrial animals like our biomass plus the biomass of all of the animals we raise as food I believe outweigh all other mammals combined so it's like were using our food supply is using up a ton of ecological space like using frankly most of it yeah I mean not just ecological space. It's also just you can actually do the calculations calculations and how much energy hits the Earth from the sun and how much ends up going into plants that we eat or go to plant their eaten by animals that we eat versus or go into plants that we burn for biofuel down to build houses and that's called the the human appropriation of primary production very long title there but it's in some ways it's actually kind of like the the the bottom line number of how much we are being hogs on the planet and so the you know the big sort of underlying solution for for the biodiversity crisis is to reduce our poll on all on all on that on the sun and let there be more sunlight for all other species and all other ecosystems and I wanted to say here to that when we talk about things like these cool beef replacements. I certainly have been eating a lot more of them in a lot less beef over the years <hes> and and I consider myself at this point eight reduce -tarian which is a cool kind of you. Don't have to go full Vegan but you can reduce the heck out of your meat consumption. I tried to do the same. I'm not a full vegetarian but I try to eat Vegan two meals a day if I can unless I'm traveling which makes it hard but that's my that's my general way too. I probably eat about a quarter quarter of the meat. I did ten years ago yes so you're a reduced -tarian too and that's great and I totally encourage everybody to do that stuff but I also really WanNa make the point that we cannot solve either the bio-diversity crisis or the climate crisis by just consuming assuming properly by just being good capitalist consumers right <hes> we you know I see this this real tendency don't wanNA kind of perfect. The self like well I bring my own bags of this grocery store and I don't eat meat and I don't do this or I do this and so I'm helping and yeah but frankly if you did forget your grocery bags a couple times a month and you actually go down to the voting booth and you vote the right people in or you go down to the city council meeting and you push the city council to put the new bike lane. If you try to push system it's going to be a much more effective use of your energy than just perfecting yourself right ultimately. That's how we're going to get out of. These crises is by systemic change not by six billion mm seven billion ten billion people being personally virtuous yeah exactly that individual Oh if I if we all just convert each other to be right thinking than all make the best choice and that's how will change the system that isn't even well part heard of it that also the consumer choices that we have our limited by what's provided to us you can only by what's in your grocery store <hes> and even if okay so you're an affluent person and you can order you know the <music> something. That's better than what's in your grocery store. Well most people can't do that and you can't point a finger at those other people and say well. You need to buy what I by <hes> because they they may not be actually able to <hes> you know when I was <hes> I I always think about how you know now I by hi the fancy chicken when I do by it but when I was in when I was twenty one I was getting the ninety nine cents a pound bag chicken thighs because that was the cheapest source of protein that was available to me and that's the amount of money that I had and that's that's the reality of it so all of these problems are systemic problems and they all demand systemic solutions yeah that's right and and also think you know including in just not just the price of these these kind of greener options but also the time and Labor to research you know right you at one point years ago I knew handbag and I think I I kind of calculated over the course of of many weeks. I spent something like thirty hours trying to research research a perfectly sustainable handbag. I've done this too if I spent those thirty hours at my congressman's office yelling trying to get him to vote properly on some it would have been much better spent and and not everybody has thirty hours to spend researching handbag purchase. That's absolutely luxury to have the luxury of researching and being able to go on sustainable fashion blogs. We need to make it so that when you are you have no time at no money and you need to buy clothes for your kids and food for your kids that the only options available to you are the best possible ecological options yeah I I sometimes think about it in comparison to for instance saying okay we can solve climate change. If we all just make better choices is sort of like saying Oh we can solve transportation problem if we all make better choices well no that's not really possible because we are all stuck with the roads and the buses and the underground train lines that exist. If you live in a spot in Brooklyn that does not have train access. You cannot make a better choice to some you know to have a train appear that needs that is a collective problem. The people of the city and state need to come together and dig some tunnels. No one can do that by themselves right we. He also often leave out of our conversation that there are some problems that can only be solved collectively and need to be addressed in that way yeah. I think that's right and I think you know. Sometimes that's tough. We're I in a society see that really focuses on individual choices and individualization and we're in kind of cultural moment. That's even more hyper individualized but this is really these are collective action problems and we have to so if you really really WanNa work on these you need to look around to find the group Group of people that you can hook up with that is pushing to make these systemic changes and then become an effective and part of that group and I think that's really the best way that individual people can help but by all means ride your bike and eat your fake meat and and and it will because frankly a lot of the things that make you a greener consumer also kind of just improve your quality of life confinment right right. I mean I recently over the last year. quit driving and I take the bus around Los Angeles now often I can. I took it here today and and it's made me happier in my life. That's now that's me. I don't expect to make everybody happy or understand why a lot of people don't feel comfortable. <hes> you know taking public transportation especially in the city like Los Angeles but when you can find those choices that actually we make your life better. That's that's a win win. All around I do say take the choices that make you happier but do not feel wallow in guilt about the things that you're doing that aren't ideal just take all that guilt energy and put it into something productive collective action. I think that is wonderful advice however I WANNA move to. I want to postulate for you. How I think about this in my darkest thoughts and I want to hear what your responses because over the last few years? I've read a lot about this subject. I've I've confronted a lot of sources that have sort of painted a deeper picture of it for me. One of them was the book the sixth extinction by Elizabeth Kolbert which is a wonderful piece of Environmental Armenta journalism I think <hes> and it really was one of those <hes> that and other books <hes> really gave me a one hundred eighty degree <hes> change in the way that I viewed this issue because the picture they painted was of say you know there are these incredible declines in amphibian populations in extinctions. <hes> I believe frogs in South America things like that that are caused by in an invasive fungus that comes in <hes> and net fungus is just brought on the souls of people's shoes. Nobody knows how it was brought their <hes> it. It's just you know hey we we connected the continents in ways that weren't connected before by traveling from place to place by creating trade trade routes by flying from place to place <hes> and actually her book describes it as almost a mathematical equation that that the less little islands of biodiversity you have the less unconnected places you have the less biodiversity you're you're going to get as a result that when we connect these landmasses <hes> through just basic human activity we are necessarily reducing biodiversity <hes> or when I look at the degree to which I've really come to absorb how much air travel travel has an impact on the planet and we've got some. Maybe some hopes and dreams for ways that we're going to reduce the carbon impact of air travel but you know it seems like it's always going to be pretty intense and I also can't look at a world and say well we we need to stop people from traveling on systemic basis because God it's just one of the fundamental activities of human life right and so when I look at you know I can't ask anyone else to stop up flying from place to place it has a gigantic carbon impact the fact that I can now fly to my grandmother's funeral and so can everybody else and I don't think we're GonNa live in a world where we're not flying to grandma's funeral right and that's going to have a huge impact as well and so when I look at all those issues combined sometimes I think man humans just by being alive and doing what we do we reduced biodiversity on a massive scale. We influence the planet on a massive scale in ways that we don't like and is there a degree to which we just have to accept that even as we try to reduce it as best we can sometimes I feel that we still need to start living with the knowledge that this is just what humans do that we have this impact and that's a depressing thing to confront like are what are you. What how do you feel about that well? I think the word impact is sort of tellingly big here so I think really need to distinguish changes from negative really bad tragic changes and I think that that's part of what I try to do in my work to get people to comb those apart because I think we've been sort of trained because of the human nature dichotomy see any change to nature as necessarily bad and if we start from that premise that any change nature is bad then we very quickly get overwhelmed by the by the scope and speed of the changes and it's really hard to to keep any kind of hope and to keep engaged <hes> but I I would argue that not all of the changes are necessarily bad so for example you talked about species moving around species are moving around in a crazy compared to the rate at which species moved around before humans learn how to crisscross the earth so quickly <hes> but not all those movements are necessarily gonna be tragedies. Some of them are and we actually we can no which ones are more likely to be problematic than other so if you move a new Predator onto a small island with a bunch of animals that evolved without any predators around that's going to be a problem very quickly and that's going to be something that you're GonNa WanNa. Put your resources into trying. China work with work on <hes> but if you just move some shrub or flower from one continent to another and it starts growing there and it's not actually driving anything else extinct or causing any other major aw disruption is that necessarily bad or is that just change because the environment is always changing and always has changed and change itself isn't necessarily bad just by splitting those two up at least can reduce use the number of things that were freaking out about but it but isn't it the case that I completely agree with that and well actually. I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about whether or not you know a an invasive or a foreign species coming in if it's not harming anything if that's still something we want to avoid or not <hes> and if that's if invasive species are that aren't harmful are things that we should still be welcoming. I'm sure there are conservationists who would disagree with that <hes> but I could also see myself working my way around to that point of like well. Hey you know nature is nature and we've changed it but it's not worse in this case but at least probably go so far to say giving given all the stuff on our table able to deal with it should be lower priority right right. We and you know hey there are so many invasive species or quote invasive species that we love and that we value you know the Jack around. A tree is like a beautiful. There's like the most beautiful tree in Los Angeles. Everybody loves these trees. They're not native to Los Angeles. That doesn't mean we should uproot them because they see you know assuming they're not. They're not killing anything else. I actually have no idea if they are just off. Potala my head <hes> but you know the palm tree is a crappy tree that Los Angeles could do without you know that's it's also not native in my opinion so I I understand how we can make that distinction but is it not the case though that just by moving those species around by jumbling them around that we are necessarily reducing bio-diversity through through that activity I understand there's good examples of that happening or not harmful examples but when we look at the aggregates you know impact sorry well. Let's let's not use that word when we when we look at the aggregate effects is that better than impact on over this uh isn't it isn't biodiversity being reduced well. I mean paradoxically a lot of places. It's being increased on a local scale because all these new species are coming in so that's something that some interesting ecological work has pointed out out that in a lot of places Sparta overseas actually increased on the local scale has it decreasing on the global scale. Yes is every species movement contributing to that decrease. No some species are just moving. Some species are moving and then going onto 'cause ecological logical cascades of events that then will ultimately reduce diversity but some of them are not so. I do think that I'm very much in the school of ask questions I and shoot later when it comes to species that are out of place or perceived to be in the wrong place ice well so let's talk about. You've written some interesting pieces about that for instance <hes>. There's there's a big article just now in the New York Times magazine about how in Australia they are sort of mass killing cats because there's a feral cats. There's actually a topic we've covered on our show about how the feral cat populations that humans have created by you know adopting these animals as pets and then sort of letting them breathe outside creates these massive cat populations and those kill native creatures on a Aso's scale here in the United States. They're killing untold numbers of birds and in Australia. Wait as it is Australia's not New Zealand right okay good. I mean they have a lot of problems with non native predators not in New Zealand welcome yes because they're islands right so they're kind of the biggest examples of this island island effect but in Australia they are just trying to wipe out feral cats as much as they can and you've written some critically about this idea of conservation meaning killing something that we don't like yeah so I think it's a it's a good example to talk about because because I think the ethics of this are trickier than the first appear I after spending many years <hes> kind of devoting myself to the environment environmental issues us through my writing. It seemed really obvious to me that if you have to kill a few animals and order save a species that's totally worth it and and and by and large I'm still kind of I guess I'm still in favor of projects that involved killing when you can demonstrate that you can get all of them off the island and then that will immediately have a positive effect on on endangered species and there are plenty of places that are like that little tiny islands with seabird nesting on them that are just being just ravaged by rodents or cats or some kind of non native Predator and if you just get those predators off that island those sieber populations can really bounce back you know I do think that there is you do have to weigh the killing against the benefit there. I think the benefit probably makes it worth it in Australia. They WANNA kill two million cats and as far as I can tell the government just kind of made that number up <hes> and frankly killing two million cats won't make a big difference if there are four million cats out her because they'll just breed and then you'll have four million cats again and so I do object to projects that just coal animals just reduce their numbers and don't have any kind of end game sketched out because basically what we're saying signing up for is infinite deaths forever that seems pretty intense ethically to kill cats forever and ever and ever without ever actually achieving yeah and and look I you know a criticism I have heard of our feral cat segment that we did about how bad this problem is that we didn't offer a solution that that you know hey. Why didn't you ever solution to this problem? Trap neuter release which some people advocate unfortunately try to release as not really the effectiveness has been proven as sort of sounds better than it is like feels good. Hey let's just new to the cats expensive and it doesn't hasn't really engender reduced their populations and the and the cats are still free to kill whatever animals they would kill so that doesn't really seem to work but also key going and killing all the cats not only. Is it a logistical nightmare. It's also nobody wants to do that. It like we don't we don't like that either culturally and so to some degree. It seems like all right do we then simply need to accept that well. Humans are part of nature we affect nature one of the ways in which was effective nature is is that we have released cats everywhere and so does our new conception of the natural world in Australia or in America now simply need to be. There's feral cats everywhere and a lot less birds like how do we think about this emotionally as what I want well. I think there are some routes. There are some possible approaches that you haven't covered there so one of them is you can use genetic engineering crisper gene drives to try to spread infertility jeans drought population and this is something that we wouldn't be able to next week or even a few years from now but it could eventually be possible to to essentially just genetically modify the wildcats such that they don't have any more kittens wouldn't have to kill them. They wouldn't reproduce and they would disappear slowly from the landscape and they've proven that this works with mosquitoes. I believe right yeah I mean it's much further along with mosquitoes. I wrote a piece for wired magazine about research to do this with rodents with with with the rats and mice that are big issue aww islands. I actually think rodents are probably responsible for more extinctions than any other group so it's it's definitely a possibility that could be on the table and and if you're not a person who thinks that all genetic modification is just off the table because has the somehow the technology itself is wrong. Then I think is definitely worth considering even though it's some ways off and there's a lot to unpack with it and then there's an other options to that actually are a little more like what you discuss about sort of welcoming cats into the ecosystem. There are some experiments in Australia where they're actually trying to sort of breed the native animals to become more resistant to cat predations so that eventually someday they could coexist on landscape and you could have you wouldn't catch will actually drive these native species these little B.'s tongs and all these adorable marsupials numb bats and that they wouldn't actually drag them extinct that they could actually just kind of become part of a of of kind of a functioning ecosystem with them so there are other roads into the future besides just just just a wasteland of cats or you know continent wide and unending slaughter like those aren't the only two options yeah what I like about your work is it makes me confront how much this is a question of values and how rarely we actually examine those values and see what they are like. Are we concerned about biodiversity for its own sake or we concerned about animals being unjustly killed right in individual numbers. Are we concerned about how well you know. Humans are able to live and flourish on the planet and these are all related issues but sometimes it seems that we're implicitly trying to maximize one rather than the other and that's when that's when the question starts to get really complex to me like when I thought experiment in my head right and say okay what what happens if humans accidentally eradicate all life on earth including our around who who is that bad for if you if humans no longer exists well nobody right the the rest of the universe keeps on spinning. Maybe there's some life elsewhere. That's happening right when I think about that. I'm like all right this is this is a human value at the end of the day that we want to preserve nature and preserve biodiversity <hes> to some extent and when I think about hey what here's a different thought of experiment what if humans just disappeared from the face of the earth what if you know Thanos from the <hes> vendors movie snatches fingers and you know <hes> destroys humanity where we stand well then they'll be cats in Australia and stuff like that but after you know biodiversity we'll be down but after a couple ten thousand years you know evolution will work it's magic and <hes> <hes> you know there'll be a new status. Quo for nature we wouldn't have do you know we haven't destroyed natural systems so much that <hes> you know the those things have been wiped out so that makes me wonder like what are or my values and why am I concerned about this exactly and what is the exact outcome that I wanna see and I don't have answers to those questions but it seems to be extraordinarily important to think about them. Yeah I mean I think you're asking the right questions right. I think certainly I and many people that I know kind of just kind of went on autopilot for most of our lives thinking like well of course it's wrong to cut down old trees and of course it's wrong to shoot endangered species and that still seems pretty obvious but what about some of these more tricky ethically thornier questions how many how many kittens are you willing to kill the that species you know and I think that as climate continues to change the world continues to to to kind of human impact unfolds these thorny questions are just GonNa get more thorny. I think you know figuring out where what our values are is really important having said that I'm still working came through it myself. I'm still working through. The sort of ultimate process of why is biodiversity so important to me is it that is intrinsically valuable. Even if there's no humans on the planet is it because humans value it just for what it is or is it because it's actually sort of material good for us all of which sort of sort of simultaneously true so I I don't have answers for you but I think you're asking questions and I do think that to me. The big mind and mind shift was going away from this mental model where it was like nature was correct in the past and then we screwed it up and now we just need to unwind all the changes we've made him go back to correct point. Hey that was essentially the mental model that I had like yes so backwards and fix it. Make it back like the way it used and that's what we were brought up with. That was every piece of environmental media. That was everything right but that's not happening doesn't make any sense because the magical time Ed when everything was correct didn't exist because nature has been changing the whole time in humans have been influencing it for thousands of years and be that's not happening because we are not able to go back. We are not able to put the toothpaste back in the tube. That's not going to happen so we have to re frame the whole quest the whole project and sort of say. What kind of futures do we want? Do you know do we do. We want everything to be in the right place or do. We just want to make sure that things don't go extinct even if they're in different places. Do we want to try to have extremely extremely efficient farms that are tiny so there's more room for nature or do we WanNa have big sprawling organic farms with lots of nature on them. You know we you need to Mac out futures that we can agree on as as global society and on the more local level as well but those futures are not necessarily GonNa look like the past yeah I mean it's so funny because so much much of what you say has a depressing angle to it because you're a very clear eyed view of what's happening but you also seem like you have a very optimistic view and so I'm curious for for again. I'm always trying to speak to the emotional channel truth that people have around this issue and that is that people are frightened and they're depressed and so i WanNa know what is it when you wake up and you see that New York Times headline about <hes> the U._N.. Report <hes> that gives you optimism moving forward word and what do you say to those people. What should they be going and doing on a day-to-day basis when I see those reports like first of all like everybody else in the world they tend to take the win out of my sales for a minute? I'm not some sort of Pollyanna you know. I don't have a one hundred percent always optimism in the face of some of these extremely real and extremely serious challenges but what I do have some hope for is the fact that this does bummed people out. I mean the day people see that headline and it doesn't even bummed out. That's the day when you really need to start worrying because there's we still care and as our understanding of the natural world and our technological abilities increase like we're starting to have options on the table for trying to deal with some these problems that we didn't even have twenty years ago twenty years ago. Nobody was talking about using gene drives to make rats infertile on islands to save seep rooms. That wasn't even a possibility so there are some new tools <hes> that we can work with there are some new futures we can imagine I made optimistic by the fact that young people continue to be super into nature and even though they've grown up in no world wherever since they were children. They've been told that things are going hillman basket so that's good. I'm kind of have been terrified for a long time that that's just going to make people check out but I mean the main thing to me is that if you define nature as as as as the place that is unchanged from the past you can never make more you can only protect what you've got left and that amount is going to get nibbled away nibbled away and nibbled away and they that's depressing and you know what I think. It's totally okay to have a little moment of mourning for that idea of the pristine perfect unchanging timeless balanced nature that we grew up with that kind of Disney nature idea because that was a beautiful wonderful idea and and and I think it's okay to more knit as you know more passing and to realize that the sort of truth going forward is going to be a little bit more hybridize a little bit more open ended a little bit less romantic. Perhaps <hes> although I find a lot of romance on a lot of kind of surprising magic in in these kinds of new kind of Mongrel ecosystems that are springing up all over the world so if you if you open up your definition generation you put yourself back in nature you then you have a concept that you can start making more of we can imagine a world in which our grandchildren have more nature than we do. I love that and how do we bring that world. How do we bring that world into the right? People very good start right and then you know don't just vote for the right people. Go knock on doors for the right. People find a group some sort of <hes> locally as well. We're not just not just on a national or state level. Locally locally. I mean I am personally involved very involved in local politics in my tiny little town I volunteered for a campaign for like a state senator. Senator let last go round because the candidate that I was supporting was against a natural gas pipeline they wanna put through our county <hes> so sometimes my kids get frozen pizza for dinner. I'm not making them some sort of zero emissions meal because I'm down ABC campaign office trying to make Mike trying to make this if I can affect whether or not this pipeline goes through that's GonNa be the single biggest influence on climate change. I'll have in my entire life. Yes well. That is a wonderful way to look at got. It and I really appreciate you coming on to talk to us about it. Thanks for having me I. I'm I'm just such a big Dork for these ideas that I'd never get sick of talking about well. We'll have to have you come back and talk about him again sometime. Absolutely when when you know when when the the world is more natural and and we've got sort of monkeys falling out of our trees outside in the world is completely Lushan overgrown we can can get back together and talk about how great it was. Let's get let's talk again when we're both one hundred five because you know just given the advancements medical technology that'll hopefully happen and let's give ourselves report card and see how we did. That's a great idea. Thank you so much. Thank you once again to Emma marriage coming on the show. I hope you've got as much out of that conversation as I did and that is it this week for us on factually please leave as a rating or subscribe on Apple Podcast Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us out quite a lot. Thank you to our producer. Dana Wickens a researcher Sam Rodman and yeah the Party God Andrew W K four theme song. I don't know anything. Check it out on itunes or whatever if you want to see where I'll be on tour come into a city near you or sign up for my mailing lists go to Adam conifer dot net you can follow me on twitter at Adam conover. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week folks once again. There's episodes brought to you by linking the blinking APP takes the key takeaways from thousands of best-selling nonfiction books and condenses them down vice-like grip down into just fifteen packed.