6 Episode results for "Dr. Carl Sagan"
Looking Back at the Pale Blue Dot. Dec 27, 2019, Part 2
"This is science Friday. I'm my Reflejo as we make our way towards the end of the year. It's a good time to step back and take a look at the big picture and I mean really really big. Few people could put the Cosmos in perspective better than the latest Strana. Merck Carl Sagan. And that's why we're taking this opportunity to take another. Listen listen to this. Classic Conversation with Sagan Recorded Twenty five years ago this month. His famous book Pale Blue Dot had just been published and as as you'll hear the development of a movie called contact was still just in the planning stages we talk about. US space policy the search for extraterrestrial arrest Joel Intelligence and the place of humans in the universe. Here's Carl Sagan on science. Friday recorded December sixteenth nineteen ninety four. We don't like to think that we're pretty much the center of attention the center of the universe. But in the words of Carl Sagan again we live on a routine planet near a Humdrum Star stuck away in an obscure corner of an unexceptional galaxy which is just one one hundred billion galaxies in the universe and if you think that sounds depressing consider this there is no guarantee that are boring little rocky planet will. We'll be around forever if we don't destroy it. Maybe a stray asteroid will and so. Where does that leave us? Astronomer Carl Sagan say brings us back to our roots as explorers and may drive us to become interplanetary even intergalactic wonders. Now let me welcome my guest. Dr Carl Sagan in is the David Duncan professor of astronomy and Space Science and the Director of the Laboratory of Planetary Studies at Cornell University in Ithaca New York. He's CO founder and President of the Planetary Terry Society and author of the new book Pale blue dot published by random house in. It's my pleasure to welcome Dr Welcome to the program. Thanks very much Pale. Blue Dot doc. That's always the first question that every interviewer asks an author why the title. Well I was An experiment or on the voyager one and two spacecraft then after they swept by the Jupiter Saturn Uranus and Neptune systems. It was possible to do something I had wanted to do. From the beginning me and that is to turn the cameras on one of these spacecraft. Back to photograph the planet from which had come and clearly there would not much scientific data from this because we were so far away that the earth was just appoint a Pale blue dot but when we took the picture there was something about it that seemed to me so poignant Vulnerable tiny and if we photographed it from a much further distance. It would have been gone lost against the backdrop backdrop of distant stars and to me. It I I thought there. That's us that's our world that all of us everybody you know everybody you love everybody you ever heard of lived lived out their lives there on a on a motive dust in a sunbeam and It spoke to me about the need for us to care for one another another and also to preserve the Pale blue dot. which is the only home we've ever known And it it underscored the Tinus the comparative insignificance of our world and ourselves as you said in your opening remarks back When men were walking on the moon that there was that famous photo of the Earth Rise over the moon and the I guess you might call it the bright blue marble compared impaired your Pale blue dot that sort of led to movements like the environmental movement when people could see us as a united planet without the political boundaries? Exactly Can we you use the Pale blue dot as an analogy to that or something. That's even further looking. That's it it's a set of of steps outward and that Apollo seventeen picture think raised many people tuned environmental consciousness and the Pale blue dot at least for me is represents the last moment in space craft leaving the earth in which you can see the earth at all and the idea idea that we are at the center of the universe. Much less the reason that there is a universe is strongly powerfully counter indicated but The the smallness of our world why why a whatever happened to the man in space program one day. We don't have to tell you how popular it was. It was the talk of the sixties. We all grew up with it. There was excitement. There was fervor. There was the exploration everybody was is behind it. A countless amount of money was going into it. Now it just lies fallow. And you're absolutely right. I think the first thing linked to say is that was a historic a mythic achievement and a thousand years from now and nobody will have any idea what GATT is or what what the WHO. The speaker of. The house was in the late nineties of the twentieth century. People will remember Apollo because that was the time that humans first set foot put on another world but Apollo was not about science it was not about exploration. Apollo was about the nuclear arms race was about intimidating. Dating other nations was about beat the Russians and when we did beat the rush and then the program was ended in the clearest indication of that is the fact that the last astronaut to step on the moon was the first scientist as soon as a scientist out there. The program was over. People said why are we wasting our money on science. AH now. Lately I mean in the seventies and eighties and nineties. NASA has been very for for the man per human program. I A hate to use the word man because it's their women astronauts In the human program we're shuttle oriented what shuttled typically does. Ah puts five or six or seven people in a tin can two hundred miles up in the air. And they launch a communications satellite or something that could just as well have been and launched by an unmanned booster and then the the newts are doing fine or the tomato. Plants didn't grow or or now the next one. They're gonNA see how how soft drinks taste in low-earth-orbit for heaven's sake and then come back down again and they say oh we've had another exploration SPLUR- ration- that's not exploration. It's like driving a bus of the same highway two hundred colon. The caller was whereas if NASA also had gone on to send humans to near Earth asteroids or to land on Mars the enthusiasm would have been maintained at a very high level. I don't say that it's Nice. As fought matter cannot make that decision on its own it has to be made at a much higher level but that decision was not made eight NASA was left to its own devices. And that's why we have a falling off of interest in the space program for X.. Men Reasons people aren't stupid. They understand. We're not going anywhere you make a case for colonizing space different than most people do in this book Your tact in this book is that you argue. Let's not go out in space for things. You could argue for science exploration education. You argue that. We have to colonize space because that's the only way we might survive in the future. That's right I I. I'm a big fan of robotic space exploration have been involved with it for thirty five years if you WANNA do science. That's the way to go. It's cheaper it doesn't live. You can go to more dangerous places and so on but as for Apollo as with Apollo the only justifications that will work in the real world are one for you in space fight are ones that involve some much broader political or historical agenda and I believe there are three one is emotional and a lot of people feel it. I know a lot of people. Don't and that is we come from wonders from Hunter Gatherers Ninety nine point. Nine percent of our tenure on earth was in that condition no fixed abode as long before we had villages villages and cities and now the earth is all explored were in some sedentary hiatus and I think a lot of people long For some exploration. You don't have to do it yourself. Because of virtual reality a few people exploring can communicate too many on the other hand. If if your child is hungry the appeal of this argument is not very high yet when parenthetically win comet Shoemaker Levy nine smash into Jupiter. It was front page news board transfixed by and that brings me to the the of course Absolutely and that brings me to the second and third points which are much more immediate and practical while I do not for a moment suggests that the earth is a disposable planet and and I think we have to make the most heroic efforts to preserve the environment. It is a fact that our technology has reached formidable formidable maybe even awesome proportions the environment that sustains us is very vulnerable the thickness of the atmosphere that we breathe is compared to the size of the Earth about the thickness of the coat of Shellac on schoolroom globe and that being the case there there is a chance that we will do ourselves in. Were certainly a danger to ourselves. I would like to see self sustaining human communities on other worlds in the long runs. No big hurry. So that we hedge our bets or diversify our portfolio The clearly our chances are much great if we do that and the third point is there is a specific danger that we are now able to identify. And that's connected with what you just said about Schumer Levi nine slamming Ming into Jupiter last July. The Earth lives in a bad neighborhood in space. We orbit the sun a midday swarm of new enormous number over of asteroids and comets. And you just take one look at the distribution of these orbits and it's clear that the earth has to run into them or they into us most of them are little burn up in the atmosphere. Don't do much harm but the longer you wait. The more likely it is that a big one will hit the ones that hit Jupiter last July. Were the biggest ones. There were about a kilometre across. They produced a blotch in the clouds of Jupiter that was about earth sized and a kilometer eliminator across object is the size which would core clause enormous environmental damage to the Earth a ten kilometer. Object that hit the earth sixty five five million years ago wiped out the dinosaurs and seventy five percent of the species of life on earth. Now to deal with this first of all all we have to inventory these near Earth objects. Surely we should be busy finding out if there's any danger from any particular object. We're not even doing that it yet. And secondly we ought to develop the technique to deal with an errant asteroid or comet if it's found to be on earth impact trajectory and without going into we can if you want the techniques for doing that. There's no way to do that unless we're out there. So this is is a claim. A very practical reason why in the long-term humans have to be out in the inner solar system. At least we need to take a break but we'll be right back with more of December nineteen ninety-four conversation with astronomer and author Carl Sagan and just a minute. Stay with us. Am I refer Plato. Welcome back if you're just joining us. We're stepping into the science Friday way back machine and turning the dial back to nineteen ninety four twenty five years ago to revisit a conversation with the late astronomer Carl Sagan following the publication of his book Pale Blue Dot. You mentioned in your book this far back or as close. I guess I should say as July of nineteen thousand nine President Bush on the twentieth anniversary of the Apollo Eleven landing on the moon announced a long term and reading from the page in your book a long term direction for the US space program called the space exploration initiative repose a sequence of goals including a space station a return to human of humans to the moon and the first landing of humans on Mars and And in a later statement Mr Bush set twenty nineteen as the target date. Do you know anybody who talks about this program anymore. What whatever happened to what happened to it as it died in the process of being born because the Republican administration was not willing to commit any political capital to get it done. It's very easy to say. We'll do something by twenty nine teen. That's whatever it is three and a half presidencies in the future and who knows will be president. And then you can't commit your successors the thing the thing about president. Kennedy's Apollo program was that he made his historic speech in nineteen eighteen sixty one which said that we would use rocket boosters not yet conceived alloys not yet invented rendezvous undocking techniques not even conceived to go to a moon that no one had ever been to and we would do this by the end of the decade and this was announced at a time time when no American aid even achieved earth orbit but the timescale was politically within reach and And the amazing thing thing is that we did it scope out for us. What sequence of events would you foresee for us to go out and colonize? Where would we start? Where would it'd be a good spot to look to live? Well I think the set of steps the first of which is better scientific exploration of other worlds so we know the lay of the land and the development of the technology for safe survival of humans in space for long periods of time that ought to be the principal focus of the International Space Station that the United States project states is leading. It's not quite right. I think it will probably be but it isn't yet and there's a few connected things with that. You would like to test out our ability to hide from solar or flares energetic events from the sun. Would you don't WanNa fry your astronauts happens not all that often and then eventually there's a set of objects which are accessible near earth asteroids the the very culprits. We are worried about some of them are much easier to get to even the moon and much easier here to get back from then the moon some of them are really strange looking As if it's two worlds glued together suggesting that we have here in Microcosm Part of the process that led to the origin of planets. We might be able to learn about our own Arjun there and because of the low gravity already we can do all sorts of engineering work there and so on but the real test the real focus ought to be more as the nearest earth like planet. It has An atmosphere polar caps wins two moons of its own enormous volcanoes but most important it it has clear evidence that four billion years ago it was a warm and wet world. Unlike today four billion years ago is also the time that life arose on earth. And is it possible that two very similar nearby worlds life arises on one and not the other or did life arise on Mars. Four billion years ago might it be despite the negative liking results hanging on in some refuge Asia subsurface some oases or maybe it became extinct and the fossils chemical and morphological are waiting for the explorers explorers from Earth. Mars is very exciting place and I would say those early obvious objectives when we go to the phones to Robert in Virginia Beach Robert a hey Dr Sagan let me first say it's an honor to To speak with you today You welcome I have a question. I guess you've answered it in part but I'll I'll fire it anyway seems to me that we're doing a lot of things to the environment. That may be Not a revocable. Oh but UNSAID having unsatisfying result for us They always say that nature you know gets Changes thanks compensates. But we may not like what it does. So I'm wondering With respect to colonization So where would we go where the likely places we would go. What's the timetable to get there and one of the basic steps for us to take before we can? We can get there. Let me let me take it a step further and say. Let's say we were to go tomorrow. So let's say we we do the intimacy intermediary steps and go tomorrow Do we have to. Are we going to as they show in move science fiction movies. Try to change the atmosphere of Mars and create giant colonies. Are we going to live in shelters there. Well well see. The timescale I'm talking about is not the next few years we would start in the next few decades and we would really get going in the next few centuries. That's that's the appropriate timescale for the technology. So I there would be the first human landing on Mars an international crew very likely Carrying environments in space suits and returning to the space ship over night that would be followed by rudimentary three habitats closed ecological systems in which you could live inside a bubble may be something like like biosphere you're too in in Arizona You would have. You'd grow into a set of these. You can think of them as as villages but Tho the long term the grand possibility and we don't know if it's possible is to convert the environment the surface environment of Mars into something much more benign so much more earth like something that Science fiction writers have called terra forming right transforming into something like the earth and while this is extremely difficult to do for let's say Venus it doesn't look all that impossible for Moore's at least a part of the way the key the point is that Morris is too too cold and the atmosphere doesn't have an ozone layer so deadly ultra-violet light from the sun is striking the surface. Both those mean put more atmosphere into Mars and because it's cold. There's a lot of gases frozen away in the soil chemically bound to the soil or there is the permafrost the polar caps and there might very well be ways to release the frozen and chemically bound bound gases already on the surface of Mars into the atmosphere warm the place up and shield the surface from the ultraviolet light. We don't know that we obviously you have to do some more work there by the way one key thing about going to Mars which looks as if if we can pull it off it'll be much cheaper than otherwise is to use Martian resources to generate fuel and oxidizer for the return journey. If you don't have to take in your fuel and oxidizer to get back if you only have to have enough to get to Mars and then they're generate the stuff to get back. The you're the weight you have to carry them Morris as much. It's less than the cost of the mission is much less. How how would you do that? What take it out of the soil? An one one most interesting possibility Doodoo Doodoo Robert Zuber of Martin Marietta in Denver. is you carry. compressed methane you combine it with the carbon dioxide from the atmosphere you generate molecular oxygen and and combine it with the methane Jared the clocks from the CO two. And now you have your fuel and oxidizer and for long-term human stays on Mars the molecular oxygen is used for breathing. The water is used for drinking and bathing and as much as you can use the local resources. There's an enormous multiplier factor in how much you save in getting there. There are set of clever ideas that have not not at all been exploited and it might turn out to be much less grand in terms of fiscal drain and activity. Then people have matter better now on the question that you raise it the very top of the show about Isn't this terribly expensive. And don't we have other enormously pressing needs. Of course we have other pressing needs in that that does take money but look how the arithmetic works out if we're not in a hurry if we're talking about a few decades and if the United States were to join with the other spacefaring nations on the planet and this could readily be done without any increase in the existing budgets. It's if we focused on the proper objectives. We could do this without breaking any banks at all and you point out an interesting point that most people think that the NASA space budget is as big as our as our defense budget is when it's in fact only five percent and and I think that's true people think oh we're spending all this money in space when when you look at the budget were really hardly spending anything it's true and and by just parenthetically when we think of all those pressing social and other an environmental environmental and other needs and we wonder where to get the money from the Department of Defense spending including hidden costs over three hundred a billion dollars a year in a post Cold War era is a very good place to take a close hard. Look talking this hour about exploring our universe with my guest. Dr Carl Sagan author of Cosmos. You'll know him by that name. And now a new book called Pale. Blue Dot Dr Second any new TV stuffer movie stuff. I understand working on a film. Is that correct. Yes my I wrote a novel In the middle eighties called contact about the first receipt of a radio a message from an advanced civilization in the depths of space and Now Warner Brothers is making it Into a major feature film as they say my wife Andrea and I are co producing and Co Writing George Miller. The Australian director is directing and Jodie foster Will be the lead big name just delighted so summer of ninety six If all goes well it should be released. I Well since you're the censure helping producing them film I guess it would be true to the to the text and a lot of movies. Do not go along with the. The book version Willis. Can we expect that to happen here. I would say it's a little too early to be to be sure For one thing you know the movies have a different idiom idiom and requirement than than books and especially than than novels. I could spend a lot of time in a novel telling what's inside the head of a character in the movie you gotTa show it. It's a very interesting discipline. The difference between writing books and writing movies and we've been greatly helped by Linda oafs the executive producer George Miller and learning and learning this but So far at least it is true to the book although changes to make it Film ICK IDIOM UH so that it really works in cinema of course being made whatever happened to the Seti project the search for extraterrestrial intelligence Is that the moot. It dead defunct Well it's it's very interesting always spun just a couple of minutes on that There are a number of city said he projects you use large radio telescopes to see if anyone is sending a an intelligible message Let me say a few words about One such study called project Meta and then I'll go onto the NASA one which I suspect is what you're talking about Meta is a program program sponsored by a private membership organization. Five and ten dollar contributions of Members Nonprofit Organization called Planetary Society which you mentioned at the top of the show. Oh them president of it in after five years of study in two years of follow up. Paul Horowitz who's the project director. He's a physics professor at Harvard and I published a paper last year in the astrophysical journal. And what we found. Is this the to to discriminate. -scriminate a genuine extraterrestrial intelligence signals from other sources of radio waves in space and from huge radio frequency interference. Errands problem down here on earth. We used a set of discriminate- sir filters narrowband transmission It has to No not rotate with the earth. It has to be stronger than the occasional statistical noise that all electronic systems have and so on after we did that we found those a handful of of events that passed through all the filters and the five strongest of them. The five most intense pence putative signals all came from the plane of the Milky Way Galaxy. Now that's where the stars are and you would not expect. Take a glitch. electrtonics would only go on when you're looking at the plane of the Milky Way. And so you know that's enough to make the heart Start palpitation a little. Bit and goosebumps breakout. But there's something extremely odd about it and other search programs have found the same thing when you go back and look at these displaces two minutes later. It's not there a day later a month later seven years later. We're not all that we never see it again. And in science a non reproducible result is almost worthless you have to be able to go back and check check in have other observers. Who are skeptical? Make different assumptions than you. Check it out so we don't know what that is Certainly certainly those places in the sky deserve further examination and we are moving onto a much bigger project called Beta billion channel extraterrestrial essay. Which Paul Harwood says almost ready now at the same time a stool more sophisticated program was supported by By NASA it went on the Air October nineteen ninety-two funded by Congress and was ignominiously turned off By Congress Just one year later. The argument presented by Senator Bryan of Nevada was was that we didn't really know that that could be extraterrestrial life out there and also it was too expensive. Well of course we don't know whether there could be. The whole point is to find out if we knew beforehand we wouldn't have to look and the consequences of success are enormous transforming. It's hard to you. Think of a more important discovery. As far as cost goes the NASA SETI program was costing about one attack helicopter after a year. Now there's a very nice CODA to the story. And that is that while Nasr's not supporting it. A number of captains of the electronics industry have made contributions totaling something around seven million dollars so that the project is going to go back on the air in Australia sometime early next year. And that's something really great. The the search the program is so important and the technology is now sufficiently inexpensive that this can go on even without government support but it sure would be great if the government would change. Its mind on this. We need to take a break but we'll be right back with more of our December nineteen ninety-four conversation with astronomer and author Carl Sagan in. Just the minute stay with us. Hey there IRA here coming at you with some great news about how you yes. You can make a big impact right now. Science Friday has a dollar for dollar donation match in effect which means that if you make a donation right now it will be double. Yes I said doubled. He heard me say this before. Any size donation makes a difference. And that's never been more true than now. I know you care about science. Friday said. Don't wait on this opportunity. Go to science Friday dot com slash. Give and double your impact. Thanks I reflect. Oh we're revisiting an archival interview from nineteen ninety four with late astronomer. Carl Sagan about humanity's place in the cosmos it was recorded twenty five years ago after the publication of his famous book. Pale Blue Dot All right let's go to Sean in Kansas City mo.. Hi Sean High. I just had a comment and I'll take the comment off the air What I wanted to ask Dr Sagan was seems to me that the way to increase space exploration to show commercial industry that it would be profitable to do so because I think as soon as you show business that there's money to be made in space you'll have to fight to keep them on the ground and I just wanted his comments? That's on that. Okay thank you thanks. I think you're absolutely right. If there was money to be made you'd have to fight to keep them off you. You mentioned some one of the reasons you might go into spaces that there might be diamonds diamonds. The let me before before we got today which is Essentially a science fiction theme. Why is it that industry is not elbowing each other to get into space and the reason is that there is no commercially viable project that anyone has come up with south except of course for the aerospace manufacturers who have something to do by building the means to get up there but no crystals is no pharmaceuticals no ball bearings? No alloys of admissible metals. Nothing like that. The the the criterion ought that'd be this to make your technology in space is going to cost X.. Dollars can you produce a cheaper or better alternative product product down on earth for Ex ballers and the answer always seems to be yes when the answer is no then. We'll have industrialization but It's possible the answer will never be that. It's cheaper to do it up there now. There are some exotic possibilities in IRA- just mentioned one. which is there is a single paper in the Japanese scientific literature suggesting that Uh diamonds might be naturally made on Mars more readily than On Earth and okay so maybe now we got your in in that case weekend have General Electric and finance the space program. But you can't be sure of that in any case we have to find out to go to come full circle in this your arm. You're making the argument that that the reason we have to go into space is not for commercial reasons but for solely survival practical survival reasons that the odds are better and you said it and I can't remember where the odds are better of a asteroid or comet smashing into our planet destroying us or or dying in such a collision and the are from dying in an airplane crash. It's like this the as far as we can tell from the prison. Statistics of near of near Earth Asteroids. We can ask what what is the chance that the earth will be hit in the next century by an asteroid or comet that will destroy the global civilization. I mean that's the the right question and the present answer is one chance in two thousand. You can decide whether that's A large number or a small number but by comparison the the chance of dying in a single randomly selected commercial scheduled. Airline flight is one and two million and now oh a lot of people worry especially these about flying in airplanes and they take out insurance policies. All I'm saying is here. Also with the odds two thousand times higher we should take out insurance policies Let's take out of also Michael. Hi H ten Michael. Hi were you fine my Question is now If you could get to the center of the galaxy the Milky Way on what would it look like. Could you call an is it. And how would you got the by what type of SIP. What type of ends in really good questions where I found so glad at age tenure? You're that far along by age. Twenty I hope you will making significant contributions to the subject. The center of the Galaxy is about twenty eighty five thousand light years away if we could travel almost at the speed of light. We can't travel at the speed of light. Show all molested posted speed of light then on board the ship. It could take us very brief periods of time to get there but as measured from the Earth it would be twenty five thousand years for us to get there so if you went there fiddled around a little bit and came back it would be fifty thousand years later and all your friends would gone so that is a requirement imposed on us by special relativity. It's a law of nature and it looks very hard to get around that except for enormously advanced civilization much more powers than we have and talk about that in in that novel contact attacked. We're talking about before what it would look like. Well you see. It's it's really we live out in the boondocks of the galaxy and it's it's dark because the the stars are so far. Apart at the center of the Galaxy the stars are much closer together and it it is gorgeous. Multicolored stars wouldn't say touching but very much closer together than they are here. The idea of of Making human communities at the center of the Galaxy may be but that's a dangerous place the center of the Galaxy it blows close up every now and then and it looks as if there's a giant black hole at the center of the Galaxy. I think we would stay for a while out here in our or remote spiral arm. Were things are a lot safer. Okay Michael Okay. You want to be an astronaut or a an astronomer when you grow scientific traffic engineer okay. Good luck to you. Thanks for calling. It was great. We got a lot of Friday and we're very happy to to invite them to to call. I guess. Sometimes they're home early Friday from school or wherever I don't care if they're playing hooky listening to one of the most interesting parts of the book and you you have it right at the beginning toward the front is most of us when we think about. Where would we like to find the origins of life in our solar system that would be similar similar to the weight evolved on Earth which say let's go to one of the planet's go to Mars to Venus but you I B because you have studied this for a long time say let's go? Oh to a moon of Saturn Call Titan. That's where we may find those primordial building blocks of life why Titan. What's going on there? It's such A great such a great finding and it's it's so unexpected. Who would have figured just as you say you figured Mars or nearby Titan two is the big moon of Saturn and it's covered with an orange haze layer and clouds? That's really really weird. For a moon to have clouds and an atmosphere not just that the atmospheric pressure is the closest of any world in the solar system to what is here and the atmosphere is made mainly of nitrogen into just as the atmosphere of the earth is now what is that orange stuff off we know now quite reliably. I think we can really be almost confident about it. That it is complex organic matter including if you drop it in water the amino acids the building blocks of proteins and the nuclear tied basis. The building blocks of the nucleic acids the very stuff of life. Urine Earth in its dropping from the skies like Manna from heaven. But it's called surface. It's not like absolutely right so so the some of the building blocks key building blocks are being made and are being preserved. You would think because of the very low temperatures so they don't decay. They're waiting for us. Let's go find them. But it's even better than the Saturn system was of course much further from the Sun ten times further from the sun then then the earth is so it has to be very cold. It's ninety four Kelvin or something like that on average the surface of Titan and so you would say look. This is the place where it misses out being being an analogy with the earth because we have liquid water. Here that's essential for life. They don't have it there it but we know that the solid surface of Titan contains ice and when a comet slams slams into tighten it produces a temporary pool and slurry of liquid water. So now he can ask over the whole history you have titan. What am I average place on the surface? How long did it see? Liquid water in the answer seems to be something like a thousand years a thousand years in which the organics that fall from the sky are mixed in with liquid water at reasonable temperatures. Is that enough to make a significant further a step towards the origin of life. We don't know but Titan is sitting there waiting for us and we're going because in three years a joint joint NASA ESA European Space Agency mission called Cassini is to be launched to arrive in the Saturn the system in the year two thousand four and an entry probe capable of of examining organic chemistry is going to enter into the atmosphere of Titan sampling. Fling as it descends. And if we're lucky it will survive the lending and see what's down there. It's a very interesting fact that you want to understand the origin of life on earth. The best place to go maybe tight amazing and of course a lot of this came out of the voyager mostly all of it the modern stuff that we know came out of the voyager missions quite right and and The the titans stuff I've just been describing is fundamentally based on voyager data you see there's a spacecraft to spacecraft board you wanted to product of American American industry run by the government via the Jet Propulsion Laboratory of NASA and Caltech that came in on time under under budget and vastly exceeded the the expectations of its designers. It is responsible for for almost all we know about most of the solar system the Jupiter Saturn Uranus and Neptune systems and now those two spacecraft still working splendidly really are on their way to the stars looking back at the Pale blue dot. Let's go to Jane in Eugene Oregon. Hi Jane thanks for taking my call. I'm wondering Mr Sagan if you're assuming that we will not trash any new environment that we may create Out in space and And if so what do you base this This assumption on this wildly optimistic assumption Of course we are a lot more slovenly than we ought to be and we are are not doing well with our own planet and you might very well argue. Let's hold off messing up other worlds until we can demonstrate. We know what to do with our own. Let's make the earth in Earth like planet before we talk about Mahan other worlds in Earth like planet. I would be very concerned along these lines. If there were life on some of the planet then I would say that planet belongs whatever. The word belong means to the beings on on that planet and we have a real responsibility to exercise the most extreme care there but as far as we know there is no life in the entire solar system except on the third planet from the Sun. The Earth is our society ready for news about life in another planet. If we were to conclusively civilly say we have discovered live someplace. Can we handle it. If it's microbial I think nobody is going to worry about it at all but if we get at a message from another civilization in the depths of space. That's very different than I. Try To. Imagine what the various reactions nations of various human constituencies will be in my in my novel contact I think I think many people would look at it with an enormous sense of wonder You see if we got a message it would have to be from somebody much smarter than us because anybody dumped on us is to Adam to send a message we've just invented radio So really smart guys telling us what they know. That means that every branch of human knowledge is now up for reconsideration. Some people of course a human knowledge but you know things like social organization and religion. Some people of course will be defensive about it and worry you know what have they assume. That isn't true and even in science you know. Do we get something wrong and fundamental astronomy. Oh you do. We make a mistake in in mathematics. Somewhere you can see people being really nervous but the chance to tap in to such knowledge. It's like going to school for the first time I'm running out of time. I have just two minutes left but while I have you here had can't I have to ask you a couple of science question one. What is your take on the the problem that we've just? I've been listening about that. The the news that the solar so the the the universe may be younger than some of the galaxies. It's fantastic isn't it. So in telling you that their children are her older than they are You know something's wrong but we're just talking about factors of to either. Our method of dating the stars is wrong or method of dating universe universes wrong. Those are the only two possibilities I think the most likely cases that we have the age of stars right and we'll find out that there's something wrong with our our dating of the of the universe but tune in it's a great question and the other great question is what is all the missing dark matter. Do we have any idea. It gets worse all the time the more we keep hearing more about it. Well there are plenty of ideas than all mutually exclusive It it's dark matter is just stuff that we no they're from it's it's there from its gravitational influence but we can't see. Yeah well you IRA and I are sources of matter. That don't radiate the eight much into space and yet we have some s it might be you know snowballs. It might be neutrinos with rest mass. It might be black holes. It might be a kind of elementary particle. That no one on earth is detecting yet. We don't know it ranges from the prosaic to the extremely exotic and their the two. We're GONNA find out the answer. It's very sobering that we could be sitting in objects that ninety five percent of the universe is made of and we have no idea what it is is really a sobering thought about. Ah In that way. It's depressing. The other way is look. We've discovered that there there and now let's find out what it is and we are on an upward trajectory towards learning an in hats off to science for figuring that out. Well thank you very much for joining me. Today it's been pleasure having you today. Dr Carl Sagan is professor of astronomy and Space Sciences at Cornell University Nathan in York and author of the New Book Pale Blue Dot published by Random House on I highly recommend astronomer. Carl Sagan recorded on science Friday December sixteenth in nineteen ninety four. That's about all the time we have this week. If you missed any part of this program or would like to hear again subscribe to our podcast. Rask you're smart speaker to play science Friday so every day now is science Friday and we want to hear your voice on science Friday and we have an APP for that. The APP is called science. Friday vox pop and it lets you easily record and share your voice comments with us and we might even play them on the air so check it out science Friday. Vox Pop wherever you get. Your apps say to us on social media facebook twitter instagram or e mail us. The address is Sifi at science. Friday dot com send feedback and tell us what you'd like us to cover to with best wishes for a happy safe and healthy new year. We'll see you next week. How am I reflect show in New York?
The API Was Pushing Climate Denial Way Earlier Than Anyone Thought
"He listeners. Were back took a long break there to work on reporting the next season and because Pandemic parenting makes work hard. This month will be releasing a few bonus episodes and next month. We'll get into our next narrative season and it's a long history of the gas industry including the fracking boom how that fed into a plastics boom and the many crazy tactics. The industry has used and continues to use to paint itself as a clean energy. Solution make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss that also a quick update on last season the second circuit court of appeals in new york just ruled in stephen don's eggers fever on at least some of the civil contempt charges. He was facing. If you don't have any idea what. I'm talking about go back and listen to season five all about the long chevron ecuador case it's been going on for more than thirty years danziger is still to trial on criminal contempt charges and we'll have a longer update on all of that for you soon but this is a small win for him today. We're talking to stanford researcher ben fronta. You might remember from season. One front studies the history of science and we spoke with him last time. About how much oil. Money is funding climate research centers at university campuses. All over the country today. I invited him on to share a really big recent discovery. That i don't think has gotten nearly enough attention about how early the american petroleum institute nouvelle climate change and importantly started messaging against climate action. That started happening in nineteen eighty according to some new stuff that francke has dug up. That's we earlier than people previously thought. The american petroleum institute is of course the trade group for the oil and gas industry. It's been around for more than one hundred years. And was the brainchild of one of car madman from season. Three ivy ledbetter lee the longtime publicist for the rockefellers and standard oil. So you know no big surprise that. They were on climate denial early. That conversation coming up right after this quick break broken ground is a podcast by the southern environmental law center. That's digging up environmental stories in the south. The latest season of the podcast explorers house southerners living along the coast navigating sea level rise as they race against the clock through personal stories and firsthand accounts listeners. Learn how all along changing atlantic shores communities and individuals are meeting the challenges with determination to address this crisis head on how people on the frontlines protect themselves from the immediate and impending threats of rising tides. how to our social inequities come floating to the surface in communities battling flooding and storms out this season on common ground available at broken ground. Podcast dot org or wherever you get your podcasts. So my name is ben franca and i'm a jd. Phd student s stanford university The phd part of my life is about the history of climate science. So i do. Research on the history of climate science in general and what fossil fuel companies knew about climate. Change awesome end. You recently published something about a policy booklet. You found published by the american petroleum institute in nineteen eighty. Can you explain a little bit about what that is how you found it. Yup absolutely so. I found this while doing archival. Research at the university of wyoming. That's in laramie and it's a policy book published by the american petroleum institute. And i believe it is. The earliest known climate disinformation from the api. And of course you know. The api is really the nerve center of the us oil and gas industry so all of the major players of the industry were members of it including exxon and chevron As well as the european companies like intel right right. This was super interesting to me when i was reading it because one of exxon guys that i interviewed this guy. Richard worth moore said that he you know he was exxon. During this time period. I think from like seventy nine to eighty two or eighty three and he said that that he had suspected that like the the big shift in the industry was kind of orchestrated through the api. And that you know. Exxon had a lot of power there but also the p. I had a lot of power throughout the industry so anyway i don't know it's just it's interesting to see how they were starting to talk about the issue in In nineteen eighty so what was like kind of the big the big finding for you in this. What was was there. anything surprising. Well i was surprised because previously the conventional wisdom about climate. Disinformation was that it arose around. Nineteen eighty nine. And that's when the fossil fuel industry created the global climate coalition and groups like the marshall institute began pushing out climate. Disinformation into the public sphere. You know and this. This conventional wisdom led to a sort of question in historical circles. Because you know as you've talked about on your podcast companies like exxon and the api were doing in house. Research and monitoring climate science since at least late nineteen seventies. So there was this question of worthies. Companies initially supportive of climate science. And then did they move to. Denial only later and that that question in that narrative for example was an important part of a new york times magazine article losing earth which was very popular and it largely absolve the fossil fuel industry of an action throughout the nineteen eighties. Yeah kinda made it all about human nature right. Try and so this. This discovery shows that that narrative was mistaken now. Of course you know that narrative fit information. That was available at the time or lease a lot of it but now no more and it turns out that even as the industry was doing climate research internally it was also promoting this false and misleading information about global warming to the public. That's super interesting mail. You read a couple of the the more. I don't know like some of the lines that that really try to to convey doubt about the About the science of global warming chore saw american petroleum institute. I think this is also significant. It acknowledged in this document that Co two was a pollutant. As when cole or any other fossil fuel is burned carbon dioxide emissions occur in itself. Carbon dioxide is harmless nature itself as a major source however some scientists believe that large concentrations of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. And in time 'cause climatic changes civically. High temperatures were lied according to greenhouse effect. You know even there you see. Some of scientists believe good goodwin. epa but it goes on and it says other. Scientists are more sanguine or optimistic about the presence of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Some scientists dr carl sagan cornell university see a cooling phenomenon as counteracting the greenhouse effect. When i saw that i was very interested because of course carts agonise very famous and a public communicator about science. And he actually wrote about his. Worry. Deep concern about global warming in applied cosmos which i think was also from around nineteen eighty and in that book he wrote. The servants environment of venus is a warning. Something disastrous can happen to a planet rather like our own. The carbon dioxide cont unto the earth's atmosphere is increasing dramatically and the possibility of a runaway greenhouse effect suggests that we have to be careful it really one or two degree rise in global temperature and have catastrophic consequences. Wow so that is the same exact year. Nineteen eighty and it is not at all how the api is present not at all row or that's one example of the of the misleading presentation about climate science that was given by the api to the public and that sort of a that's a classic technique portraying the scientific community as being more split more divided on the issue than it actually is that i became a staple of climate denial on and flexing attention away from fossil fuels for decades to come. That's super super interesting. What is this world coal. Study that you mentioned in this in this article yeah so. This is another another technique of climate Denial And really something that. The fossil fuel industry does fairly regularly is two point two studies that looked like they're done independently by by scientists by third parties that apparently support the position of the industry. And in this booklet we have the exact same phenomenon So the api pointed to something here called the world coal study which was actually a largely funded and even carried out by representatives of fossil fuel groups. But it was organized by professor at mit so it looked credible from the outside and mit taken. That sweet will money. And that study which that's what he came out in nineteen eighty two one thousand nine hundred eighty as well so that study also came out in nineteen eighty and it called for a tripling of worldwide coal production by the year two thousand and it simply asserted that this would have no serious consequences for human health for the environment allow which is a rather laughable conclusion. This was like around the same time that people were trying to make the argument that co two emissions would like grow more plants on the planet to right. This is about when they're that argument rose And i want to just note that this world coal study even though we might think that its conclusions really make no sense. It was actually quite influential. So the director of that study those mit business professor. Carol wilson lead the carter administration with using the study able coal production by nineteen ninety. Which the which was actually adopted and it became official a g seven policy. The g seven countries are the united states. Uk france germany italy japan and canada at became official g seven policy in nineteen eighty one. Wow wow i love this quote from him that you have to where he's describing his year as Having spent the last year peddling coal all over what a glorious where that was. Wow that's yeah that's really. That's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit about this. Industry-wide d- task force that. Api had created sort of the year before as well. I know that Neela banerjee wrote about a few years back but just kind of oriented people in this time period again. That's right so you know night. This nineteen eighty document shows. What the the. Api was telling the public about climate change. And we can compare that to the internal memos that down the api had time and and one of the most important groups in the related to climate change. Was this task force on. Co two climate and really what this was was a group to monitor climate science and developments and it had representatives on it from the the major oil companies who are members of the api From bp from exxon and so on and one of the bombshell documents that we have so far is the meeting maintenance of a presentation given to the that task force by a researcher from stanford university About climate change. This was from around the same time so this presentation was from nineteen eighty and during this presentation of the person presenting. It was his name. Was john lower men. Use an engineer from stanford university. He talked about the likely impacts of fossil fuels if they continued to be developed As they were and one of the slide says one of the slide says a wonder we rise would happen by two thousand five but it would be barely noticeable. A two and a half to rise would happen by twenty thirty eight and that would have major economic consequences and would be strongly regionally dependent on where you are in the world and then a five degree rise would happen by twenty sixty seven and now it happened. Globally catastrophic effects. And you know of course we have already seen about a one degree rise so this is fairly on track But this shows that by nineteen eighty. Api had actually been directly. Warned that business as usual would would create his globally catastrophic effects within the twenty th century and yet in this policy book. Api is telling the public. We need to expand fossil fuel production of all kinds oil gas and coal because at that time the oil industry wanted a lot of coal production in order to produce synthetic fuels which is liquid fuel made out of coal and it knew that this would lead to a huge amount of co two being put into the atmosphere and yet it told the public that this would be safe and is essentially the opposite of wit. The group had just been warned about that very year. Yeah that's interesting Especially interesting given that you know the. Api has been named in minnesota's climate fraud lawsuit. So it'll be interesting to see how some of this stuff plays into that and also what else they might find when i guess it's f but when they get discovery in that case yeah that will be very interesting. Yeah when when i see this. This false misleading information. Coming from the api. Nine hundred eighty. It tells me that at that time. The industry wasn't just paying close attention to climate science through its internal task force but it was also actively intervening to prevent climate from being fully considered in public policy. Even at that time and that that suggests that This sort of approach of of denial and deception was the first instinct. If you want to think about it that way of the petroleum industry as as the client policy grew in the public eye. So you know even early eighties from the very earliest days of climate. As a policy matter the industry was already poisoning. The well. If you want us that that phrase and this means There may not have been a time when climate policy discussions were free from the influence of disinformation from the industry. It might have always been corrupted if disinformation was being. Put out there this early. Yeah i do feel like it's really important to understand sort of how the public's understanding and politicians understanding of climate science was shaped in those early years when you know oil companies were doing some research you know if we think about this. This is one thousand nine hundred eighty and that might seem like a long time ago and in some ways it is a long time ago but because energy infrastructure lasts for so long the things that happened in one thousand nine hundred eighty still have direct impacts today Energy decisions. Like if you build a refinery or a coal plant or pipeline. That's going to last for sometimes fifty years or more. So this sort of disinformation from nineteen eighty and ever since then has actual grill material effects. On how much warming we experience now in the future and therefore how much damage occurs so even though this is in the past decade in the past it in a very real sense it is causing harm today. And that's just that's i think an unfortunate aspect of it but it's also why so important that we figure out what happened us. We can correct it totally. Well it's so it's frustrating to see the same thing get repeated in so many ways. Now you know or even i. I was talking to someone earlier today. Who was like. Wow all of a sudden. It seems like disinformation is such a big thing. And i'm like it's not all of a sudden now it's been that's like because this whole machine has been built for like one hundred years we need to understand that and i my big soapboxes recently is that i really think the media needs to take a hard look at itself and its role in all of this stuff and ways that it can inoculate itself and the public against more of that right. Yeah as you've talked about it in your podcast. Some of these techniques of mass manipulation are very old and are commonly used between different industries techniques like third party technique where you know falsely ascribed essentially your own position to a group. That looks like it's independent from you. But it's actually not you know that's just one example of pr techniques They're very common and it's amazing. How how common they are once you learn about them and you know you have a whole season about that. And it's one of the best resources about about that topic. But i think it would be amazing for For the media to develop a closer. That's it for this time. Big thanks to ben frontier for joining us. I will drop leaks in the show notes to his research on this subject and the documents that he was able to find come back next week. We'll be talking about a new reports that had the oil and gas guys all up in arms. It found that surprise all those jobs. That the fracking industry was supposed to deliver. Never really materialized comeback for that and once you drilled is an original production of critical frequency. It's reported and produced by me. Amy westervelt our music is composed by b. Beeman david why did and martin wissembourg you can find us online at drilled news dot com where you'll find transcripts and related documents for podcast episodes as well as more climate accountability reporting. You can follow us on twitter at we are drilled and you can follow me at amy westervelt big. Thank you to our patriots. Subscribers you are the ones making this podcast happen. If you'd like to become a subscriber do so now it's patriots dot com slash drilled. You get free episodes bonus content and we even have some merch through their. Thanks for your support.
292 - Matryoshka Moochers and Median Magma
"This is fine. Good one little clunky at the beginning, but I've actually gotten my groove. You didn't seem clunky to me buddy at the whole way through. I work with good people. Happy about that are thinking there's a little bit of self selection there. Like I think there were bad vibes than we just wouldn't work with each other anymore. True. That's probably true. I like her. You turn that around into a positive for all of us. Well, done. We gotta get get a good team. I just caught up with Charlie the other night and leg without I called him to say, and then he was like, I know I gotta get back on the show. I was like, Nah, I call Charlie. I I did know that it would guilt him just hearing my voice. So yes. Yes. Charlie, I knew I knew I didn't need to say anything to make make the tendrils Paris Brune. Ooh, that's the best kind of parasitism. Don't mean to get too excited about that. Soda dot com. You're listening to science sort of. Episode, two hundred ninety two. Our theme this week is metro's commuting and median magma which. Prize to one of the guests who is one of the guests. One of the co host who's joining me, talk about things that are science, things that are sort of science and things that were science and it's the return of Kelly. Hello? It's been a while how you doing Ryan doing well, but we know that Kelly hates coming up with themes. So I went ahead and worked on it with our other co for this evening. Abe I that, yes, we just got to surprise you with some highly alliterative parasitism and vulcanology now that salad. And then I stepped on aids introduction, I'm Saturday. It's all good. Hello? Yeah, we worked in this title for at least an hour. You've Virginians always getting any way. That's why I hate titles. That's an hour. That's a long time. It wasn't an hour texting. We weren't on the phone. Troupe kill. You brought a friend? I did bring a friend. So today I brought my friend and collaborator Dr Scott Egan from Rice University. Welcome to the show, Scott. Hey, thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited to chat with you. Guys are excited to have you as sky. So Scott recently had a paper that got a ton of press and he discovered this new trophy interaction, but I'm not going to mess it up by describing it myself, Scott. What did you find? Sure. So I, my lab works on a group of insects called Goss's and they are these amazing little tiny wood wasps that induce their hosts which are oak trees to grow tumor like growths of plant material, which we call goals and inside that a little baby wasp grows. And so we've been looking at those across the US Gulf Coast for over a decade. But very recently. We found some that were being attacked by a parasitic vine called the love vine or Caserta, and that interaction between a parasitic plant attacking a parasitic insect, which it's a self attacking a plant had never been described in nature before, and we were really excited to get this out here. So one of the things that I love about working with you is that all of the cool observations that you make usually come with, like a fun story about how you discovered it on a vacation or something? What's what's the story about how you discovered LeVine? Okay, get ready. This one's complex. So I it involved another experiment where we were sitting in Houston, Texas, realizing that we needed to get some field samples from Florida. So my post doc, Glenn hood who is a co, author on the paper Lou to Florida within a day's notice drove like a thousand miles in rapidly collected. All of our goal formers in does ziplock bags, put him in a cooler, ship them back to rice and then flew home. So that was how we accidentally collected this interaction in the first place, but we didn't know we had it at that point. So then comes the next stage in our lab where we all sit around some of the lab benches and we process these samples and Kelly. You've been part of that in the past where you're separating leaves from these insect induced goals or cutting them off of stems, and just trying to process each of the species that attack each of our host plants. And at that point, you know, one or two undergrads kind of picked up some that said, hey, what is this to which one of the grad students in the lab of Liniers among who's also author on the paper started really looking at it under the scope. She brought it into me. We started looking at it. I told her it was probably just a Steed or the fruit of the parasitic vine and that we should probably. Pay attention to it, but we kept talking about it over days and eventually dissecting one of them. And rather than finding some kind of fruit of this parasitic plant that I did not work on. We found one of my goal Walston side and then the pithy happened. And so we had just finished processing bags and bags of our samples, and we went back into them kind of looking for the needle in the haystack to see if this one singular example was just an anomaly or something that was repeated in nature. And we found four or five of them in in our samples, which was exciting, which then led to a nother field trip. The next growing season where I flew out to Florida and basically went back to the same field site which is starts off with this oak tree, which is kind of a scrubby oak. That's only about four to five feet tall. So I could kind of walk into the scrub and kind of push your head through the canopy and kind of pop above the trees. And then I just kind of blurred my eyes across. This site where we had seen this parasitic vine before, but never really realized what it was doing. So if I understand this correctly, you knew that there was a bunch of parasites out there and you're just like, I'm just gonna go shove my head in it. Basically, yes, but we went to this site and the site is known to have lots of the vine and lots of our goal formers which is the main reason why we've been going there in the past. So I'm looking across the canopy and once I kind of blurred my eyes by founded in tens of different places right next to my face. So then we realized this was a much more common interaction. It was actually what this vine does is really amazing pairs at plants in general or amazing. I've been learning a lot about them. They have these modified structures called historian, which are actually like homologous with like root structures, and they form these kind of suction Cup attachments to the thickly plants. But in this case it was to our insect induced call. And we found those not just on the species we'd found in the lab which we had accidentally collected the year before where we actually then saw them on another Gulf forming species that goals the stem. GMs of the oak trees. And we've found these vines tightly wrapped in association with two, three or four other Gulf formers all in the same little system which led us to believe, oh, this is not just a single species interaction. This is a new trophy interaction that has not been described in the past. So that's the long and short of the story. So you mentioned that you've been learning a lot about plant parasites, which when made me want to ask, what kind of work have you been doing prior to getting into this sort of parasitism? I see that you're an assistant professor of biosciences at Rice University and that you got your PHD from a little university called Vanderbilt Abe and I have some familiarity with so Yes. What's your got his PHD there? And I got my master's there. I guess Abe got his master's empty. Their Sarah did. Oh, also. Great. We can talk about Nashville the next, right? So I was just curious, like what your research program looked like before stumbling into scrub oak. Multi level parasitism. Right? So I'm an evolutionary biologist by training and a lot of what my lab thinks about is the evolution of new species or species though, how a one single group of interbreeding populations involves into many different reproductively isolated species through time. And these goal wass or one of the focal systems. Because in Florida, there's actually two sister species of oaks. There's this sand live oak which is called Quercus gem, NADA. And then there's another closely ready species that's in a more music soils that is called cricket Virginia on just the southern live oak. And those two oaks are provide the two environments for which our single species of goal wass. In this case, be treaty is the focal species of this paper. The we're talking about is adapting to these two oaks. And we look at how adaptation to those two. Environments of promotes the species Asian process. And that's what our lab mainly doesn't. Why we've been collecting these critters for over a decade story about finding this for two reasons. So one, it's because you discovered it because you've been spending so much time looking at this one dollar that you're able to come across these cool excavations that you wouldn't get if you just studied this one species months and then moved on. And I also love. The observation was initially made by an undergrad which is just one of the benefits of having new people without preconceived notions jump into your system with fresh eyes, and then they find awesome things he got. Yeah, I mean, and we have benefited from that kind of fresh is many times in our lab at so fun and I really benefited from that. Even during my PHD training at Vanderbilt, I had undergrads working with me at that point when I was a post doc at the university of Notre Dame and now at Rice University in Houston, every single time it's great to have excited young. People interested in learning and training and science to participate. It's just an unending source of energy and enthusiasm, and I just feed off of it myself. I have a question for both the parasite people on the show. Why are why is it always wasps? Like, what did they do in. Evolutionary in the evolutionary lottery that they're just always parasites. I, they one right. Okay. That's a perspective. So our collaborator, Andrew, Forbes recently put a paper on, I think, bio archive about how from a long time. People have argued that Cooley after has the most species animal group on the planet, but he's arguing that high Manapa are and that's the group with wasps. So there's a lot of them to begin with a man. Then Scott, you can correct me from wrong about this, but wasn't there. It was there one movement to becoming paranoid than than a big radiation or multiple movements to becoming parasitology. That is a complex kind of macro evolution question that I don't know the answer to studying my little critters. I can't tell you that there has been movement even within the parasitic lineages that I know of. So for example, these crazy, gall wasps actually thought to have evolved from a parasitic common option that attacked other insects. So I think that's a really interesting shift that they moved to Paris, tie plants from parasitology insects in evolutionary time. And then the other thing that I think is really important to think about here is that these wasps have these, this venom that they released during egg laying, and we think of that win with sting. But a lot of the goal wass are releasing these proteins in their venom with their eggs that are messing with the immune systems of here, a host plant and its immune response or. Parasitic wasps that attack other insects messing with the immune system of their host. So I, I think that's probably one other relationship and factor. We wanna think about here with why these guys do all these crazy things. Zorba that answer and like that answer. So so is this bad for the goal wants this LeVine interaction? Right. Good question. So in addition to just finding this interaction, we were able to uncover a couple of neat associations that we hope to really dive into next year in next year's growing season. The first is that goals that were attacked by the love vine were a different size on average than the rest of the goals of that species on the same host. So for the main focal species of wasp be treaty. It induces this p. shaped golf spherical goal on the undersides of leaves. The ones that were attacked by the love vine were on average larger than the the, the goals on the plant that were not attacked. So that brings up all kinds of potential new questions is. Is the vine just attacking goals that are larger. So that's a possibility. But another interesting possibility is maybe the vine is making the gold digger. It's drawing out additional energy and resources making that goal larger. So initially, that would be good for the Galler except that when we did a dissection of for some number of these attack gulls, we found that in roughly half of them. There was a mummified adult gall wasps inside which meant that the goal grew, the wasp grew within it to an adult, but then somehow was mummified inside of this call and never actually emerged. So the goals were bigger, but inside the adult that was supposed to emerge did not anti. So there were negative interactions for that species. And then we started looking at some of the other gall wasps. He's on the same host plant, and we found that a stem swelling goal called Colorado's which makes the. Stem just kind of form this kind of globular structure. Those goals were on average smaller than unattached calls on the same host. So there we don't know actually what's going on with the internal structure, those goals, whether they came out or not, but we were able to document that they were a different size. So you have these size differences in the goal structure in with one species you have roughly half of them that are mummified inside the gall. So, yeah, there's a definite negative interaction for be treaty when it's tact by this love line. Single use calls like is there are they made for a single wasp to grow in. And then once that wasp gross in presumably Fleiss off than its abandoned? Yes. So it depends on the species. Okay. So there are many different goal while species. Some make single-chambered gulls which would generate a single individual. Some are multi chambered and they'll make many, many individuals as many as thirty forty fifty sixty individuals. We've caught coming out of a single goal in the lab until it just depends on the species got in for this species that you found with the love vine just happened to be. So yes. Okay. Yeah, this one was a single chamber inside it. You know, you basically just cut it open in the center. There's a little chamber and in that chamber that we found these mummified wasps. Did you find any relationships between the presence or absence of among. Defied wasp and decisively, was it just kind of all over the place at nine general? They were larger if yeah, if they were tach with the vine. Yeah. So we did look at a so yes. So on average, the e treaty goals were larger if they were taxed by the vine. And then we just looked at a subset of the Gauls out. I'm trying to remember how we thought about this. I may space, but I think we looked at like a smaller subset of the gulls to kind of dig in a little deeper there, and we, we still, we still found that difference that the tackles were slightly larger. But yeah. Good question. Lots more questions have emerged from this. We're able to talk about in this little short paper trying to design a scrap, the trophy interaction, like all good science should. Yeah, right. Exactly. So after finished reading this paper, my first thought was how great it is to be a human like. So you know, fellow technique. Treaty has how many different Paris a bunch of pairs of twins associated with it, and probably some predators and now it also has to worry about a plant stealing all of the. It's just got. So if they've got so many things going against it, but our lives are pretty good. Yeah. No, I mean, kill. You bring up a good thing about the the biology of this system. Not thinking about this love vine is that you have the host plant, you have the goal former and that Gulf former is attacked by a whole group of predatory wasps called parasitic Wade's that cause massive mortality among the goal loss in a typical situation. And now you have this new vine interacting in doing the same thing. So that's another cool question we're interested in the next year is how this vine invite attack upsets that that kind of tried trophy interaction that we've been thinking about in the past. Right now, we've only been able to just kind of talk a little bit about the interaction between the goal wasp vine, but we know nothing about what happens when the vines also attacking the same exact host plant. What happens when that vine. Attacks the goal, and there's a para situated or some other insect that's living inside. We have no idea that interactions and what might happen there. I'm sure we've done this on the show before Kelly, but can we define the difference between a parasite? Toyed air actually wanna do that. Oh, you're the parasitology. I just, yeah, I, I'll, I'll I'll, I'll defer to you. Is it? So I think of Paris toys as a category under parasites, the parasites, sorta like anything that has a long interaction with another organism, where it extracts resources from that organism and Paris to tweets, in particular, require the death of their host, and then have a stage after they killed her host where they live free living in the environment for a while. So they're particularly bad parasites because they have to kill their host in order to complete their life cycle. Whereas something like a hope, warm in a person doesn't kill the host unless the intensity gets way too high, but typically doesn't kill the host. So that's that's the difference. Does that make sense? Makes sense to me. Thank you. Make sense to me. And so Abe asked about the effect on the wasp, but what about the effect on the tree? Right? So we don't know who the ultimate winners are losers are in this situation yet because we're still kind of exploring it. But in general, love vine can overtake their host plants. They basically form these vines that go all over the top of the canopy and effectively choke out individual plants. So love vine, and there's another parasitic vine in Florida have been reported to be agricultural pests so they can actually attack economically important crops and cause crop damage and reduce yield, though these guys do have a fax on the host plant, but we don't know exactly what's going on in this system because this is a kind of a new interaction for us. I can tell you from the goal law side, though, oak trees harbor hundreds, thousands, tens of. Thousands, sometimes millions of golf warmers on a single large live oak tree and those oaks continue to grow year after year put out acorns. You may see some structural damage where a branch may break due to the weight of Gulf warmers from getting very high numbers. But in general, you know, there seems to be some kind of tolerance at the plant can have with very high levels of Gulf warmers in certain years. So actually, this is something I meant to mention during our meeting me other day, Scott didn't. So Scott night work on a dollar called the city of political, the creek goal lost. It makes a little compartment inside the stems. And when I was in the field, I noticed that a lot of the branch after the crypt was often dead man's to name. Yes. Okay. And so there are different kinds of goals. You can get goals that are like on the leaf and extract energy to make the goal, and then you've got this goal that's in the middle of the stem. And I was talking to grant student the university of central floor. Named Jordan who studies plants, and I mentioned that it seemed like this caller killed the stems, and he was like, of course it's interrupting the flow of water and nutrients through the stem. So. I'm assuming that it sounded like putting attorney kit on. Yeah. So he said the ones on the leaf are maybe not as bad. He suggested that because he doesn't work in this system. So he was just kind of spit balling as I threw information at him that maybe the ones that are extracting energy aren't as bad as the ones that are in the stem that are interrupt that are essentially putting the turn it on, like Ryan said, and I hadn't thought of that. And I thought that was interesting. So maybe some are worse than others had. It depends on where they are, maybe? Yeah, good question. I mean, that's a good point Kelly. Yeah. The ones that attack like the stems are the ones that also caused the structural damage where the stems will break sometimes on windy days and storms. So that's very interesting. I've noticed the same thing in Bissau Tia here in in Texas, is that they will occasionally just kinda kill the the branch branch. Let that's growing out in that direction, but not always, which is interesting. It's not one hundred percent of the time so they will still be able to. Leave out and grow on occasion though, in general particular species of wasp will target specific area of the tree. Yes, yes. So so sign up, sign up and go was are highly host specific though. They usually attack mostly just a single species of oak or or a group of very, very closely related species of oaks. And then in addition to that, they will only form galls on usually a very specific part of the plant. You know, they can only induce galls on the underside of a leaf on amid vein, you know, they're very specific to the tissue because when you really think about what's going on here, the the wasp is somehow manipulating the undifferentiated tissues of its host, and they grow very structurally complex tumors or galls where they have like an outer structure, inner structure, they will concentrate some of the plant defensive chemicals on the outside of their goals or even have. The plant grow additional defensive structures on the outside, like over express, plant hairs, try combs on the outside of the gall, just to defend it against all the predators parasites and now parasitic plants that try to attack them. So yeah, they're very, very specific. And then another crazy part of their biology that haven't even told you about is they actually have a sexual Annonay sexual generation that they alternate between in an obligate manner. And each of those generations induces a different goal on a different part of the plant. So the focal species we've talked about be treaty where it grows on the underside of leaves and makes that little sphere. That's the asexual females inside. That's the sexual generation growing when they emerge, they descend down to route material where they lay their eggs into the roots and that little egg. And when it hatches that little larvae. In deuces a giant multi chambered golden red call right beneath the leaf litter, which is with the sexual generation grows. They emerge in the spring mate and go back up to new leaves to induce that Leith call every week. I learned something new about gold loss that blows my mind. I knew about the alternating generation thing. That's not this week's new thing, but like, yeah, yeah, they're just they're so awesome. Yeah, I met a couple scientists in in in my training who studied systems for a very specific reason starting out of tation, the genetics of complex traits, but they were, they were systems that were just so full of additional questions and and I really appreciated that as a way to do the research program to have a lab with lots of questions for graduate students and undergraduate students to work with you. So that was something that I, I learned during my PHD. Working on a group of leaf beetles where I was interested again in spec- Asian, how they were adapting to maple and willow trees and evolving into different species. But they also had ploy the issues that were asexual gyna- genetic parasite lineages that you know messed with the sexual image. It just bizarre things. Everytime insects are so complex crazy. There's just a million questions you could ask them. It's so fun. My question is, is seeing a parent's I'd go after, like I of two Russians. One. If the love vine is actually sometimes killing the wasp, then is it potentially advantageous to the tree? And so could this be a case where the tree would actually encourage parasitism or encourage or at least not fight off parasitism of its parasites in order to increase its own fitness. So that's a. That's a really interesting question that we don't. Yet know the answer to, I will say that in this region where we detected this tropic interaction, the proportion of goals that were attacked by the LeVine on average is still pretty low. So it it represented like three or four percent of all the goals were attacked by this love vine, which when there's tens of thousands of calls, there's a lot of interactions, but it's I, I don't think there's enough of interaction here yet to see selection moving the bar, but we don't know again who the winners are losers are in the outcome of this yet we're still kind of exploring that. But it's a really good question to think about that. A parasitic vine could be preening the plant, it's trying to attack and removing other, you know, parasites off of its host. I mean, that's certainly something we've seen in nature before, and it really was the constant gardener. Other question is now that we've seen parasitism on parasites is this is that in and of itself surprising and something that we think folks in your field are going to go look for now or the idea that parasites themselves also be susceptible to parasitism? Not exactly the big finding from this. It's just so system that another good question. Yes, really two things there. One in these groups of organisms where you have host plants where you have some of or in our case goal wass and then you have this predatory community called the Perez tweeds you do see hyper Paris them, which is in fact what you describe what you see some parasitic wasps attacking other parasitic loss that are attacking our goal loss. So we have seen that repeatedly in the past. But what's interesting here is that people have been studying Galway loss for a long time and they're all over the globe and people have been studying Peres plans for a long time. And they're also all over the globe. So I do think people are going to start looking for and finding this interaction between these internal parasites. The goal was and this parasitic plant attacking the same host. But I do think people are going to start looking for this and I will be shocked if people don't find it in other systems. I'm already looking for it in alternative systems that I also work in. I'm sure people will uncover it soon somewhere. Very cool. I wrap it up Kelly. All right. So there couple of people who I think of as like my models for how am I, how science should be done. Right? And you're one of those people for me. And so my question for you, you have a couple of different papers that have come out and been like huge and they were things that as far as I can tell, we're, we're not things that you've been looking for that you just discovered that ended up being these huge things that everybody gets excited about. So what tips do you have for scientists for like hell to be the people who discover these kinds of awesome things that maybe you were looking for, but maybe. Weren't. Okay. Why open ended? I. I, I would say, thank you. That's super kind, and I actually feel the same way about you Kelly. You're kind of an amazing biologist, and I have been really excited about learning all the things that you do. So right back at ya. So does an excellent question. And I, I really don't know the answer to it off the top of my head, but I will tell you a couple of things that have been spiraled. This work one is a article written by Doug Fatuma. Oh, probably twenty or thirty years ago. I think in American naturalist where he talked about the importance of natural history in understanding complex ecological in Evelyn phenomenon. And I read that as a graduate student, and that really inspired me to really know a group of organisms in great detail. I had no insight at that early stage of my career, what that group of organisms would be. So I just kind of dove in and and just pressed on with my curiosity and and hoped. That one, you know, eventually I'd kind of catch my gear somewhere and be able to do that. So that essay in American naturals was really inspiring to me. And then there was a, I don't know if it was a preface to a book written by Warren Abraham season and art Weiss on traffic interactions. These guys work on gall systems, a wonderful system called the roster Bligh gall that induces a stem goals on solid go. And they've explored all these kind of interesting interactions using another Gulf warmer system. But the preface to that book is written, I think by may Barron bomb and she says something like, you know why it's really important to dive into the dirty details and just get everything out of a single system and understand everything because it's that really that extra work that allows us to learn something new. And that essay also kind of just inspired the work on gall wasps and wanting to know everything about them. And just to kind of be a whole systems biologist for a system where I'm an evolutionary biologist. I one. To understand species Asian. But I also want to understand the complex interactions in nature in general. So that's, that's kind of what drives my work. Awesome. And it seems to be paying off. Thanks. I'm having fun, and I have great people to work with, which is really lucky, and it's really cool that your work is is getting the kind of press that I don't know that parasite research always get. So congratulations on that. That must be really exciting yet did a ga- it's it's crazy to to the interviewed by entities that you read regularly like the National Geographic or the New York Times. That's kind of wild. And I should say that all of these projects, you know someone's interviewed in the case right here, like I'm being interviewed, but I am a Representative of a team of people that worked on all these projects rights. If somebody has to be the first author or the senior author, whatever, but each one of the people that was working on this really important. And so really, I'm just the figurehead of a team of people that's been working really, really hard on all these different projects goatee. Grants to all of the team. And if any of them get a first author pub out of any of the follow up projects that I'm sure you're all working on their also welcome to come on and talk about the work. Okay, that sounds really awesome. I'd love for them to be able to do that. Yes, because as you mentioned, lots more questions have come up and in any good her, you know, may not any good interview, but as is the style, sometimes we asked you some questions where you were like, I don't really know. That's exciting because that means there's more to come. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. We're excited to get out in the field again. Are there places on the internet where people can follow you or follow along with the work that your lab is doing? Yeah. So. We're pretty low tech, which is maybe I spent a lot of time on natural history and not a lot of time on the internet. So I, I love the bigger differences in our careers. I, I love science communication, and I'm so excited to read things in an I consume it myself, but I'm pretty pretty basic. I have a website. It's pretty crummy that creep, keep on my own and I have a a, you know, a regular Email address. So that's about it Laurie. I'm just super low tech. No, that's okay. Would you like us to send people to your website where you do actually have a it is a, you know, you may say it's very low tech, but it is more fully fleshed out than a lot of other lab websites that I've seen in our ten years of doing this show. Okay. Awesome. Yes. If you Google Egan lab at Rice University, you can look at our our lab website. You see the work. We do the people, the teams that have. Contributed to this work from the post docs in a graduate students and undergraduates and a list of our publications which include this cool paper on the plant parasitic vine, but also the cool paper. I was lucky enough to work on Kelly on the crazy you Darris wasps that manipulate the behavior of the beset Lia goal was which was super exciting. We did last year. I think Kelly told us about that on the show. I will find that episode on our archives linked to that, and I will link to your website in the show notes for this episode. And with that, I just wanna thank you Scott for giving us some of your time this evening. Cool. Thanks a lot for inviting me. I had a great time. Thank you, Scott. Barracks mutual. Yep, bye guys. Well, thanks again to Scott for coming on the mic. Thank you Kelly for arranging that my pleasure. It's always great talking to Scott. It's always great one. One of you bothers to arrange interview for me so I can just show up and talk. Bothers Kelly. Kelly just did the nice thing and I'm using languages if she was the one who is making it a problem, but now Kelly, that was awesome. Yeah, you brought it all together and made it happen, and plus in conversation, every conversation with status. Listen, let us toast to parasites in our next segment. What are we drinking. I will always drink to that. Fueled outside. Jerry. Number three. Me. Kerley. If we didn't also talk about what we are drinking, I assume at some form of the chemical parasite, all. Kelly were excited. So let's start with you. So I have recently started going to this butcher called j m stock insurance, Phil, Virginia, and they have this collection of local wines and beers insiders. And so I picked up Potter's craft cider in this particular crash site or is while galaxy Citre. Let's give it a shot while some stuff from them that sounds very familiar there from free union, Virginia. And so this post to be tropical tart and aromatic -ly intents. Lexi is that referring to the hops. Person. My friend, yes, yes, I've actually had this in. It is okay. I wanna hear what you think it is galaxy hops, right? It does galaxy hops now can. So I I would say that the description is spot on this is a little tartar that would usually go with for cider. However, it tastes delicious. And. And upon second sip, I'm definitely gonna finish this work really digging it. Yeah, reserve becoming the hot thing here in the district Kelly. I guess they're a couple in the Charlottesville area and they're all amazing. I really love living in Virginia. We could. There's at least. Three or four cider is in the district. We could do a little cider day if you ever had a day where you could, you know brink. Not have to worry about the kids off somewhere and. I should say every sip of the site or that have like it more looks good. Yeah. With what expected? Because it's not like most ciders they've had. So that threw me at first, but now that my mind is open, I'm digging it nice. So I picked it up in the store probably a few weeks ago guavas what am I favor fruits in? It's very rare to come across it in the US. Now. I love it in in California. We had a tree, so never really an issue every time I come across something with guava. I wanna try it as actually impressive as I like that. It's a little bit tart than a little more tart than the standard cider is to me that makes it more unique different. It's really nice. Awesome. So that's two thumbs up. Yeah. Well, very nearly had a signer tonight as well. But I ended up not because it wasn't already in the fridge, and I've had Tallboy in the fridge for a while that I've been wanting to get to the show. And this is the juiced in time upland brewing company side trail. And I got this one because very recently I did a hike that was very much up land on what somewhat of a side trail. I thought it was a good beer. Celebrate that hike. Is it tasty? Yeah, it's good. This is the last of a four pack, so I didn't need to be convinced to finish the. Saving the final one for recording. So yes. Very good. Yeah, it's their experimental. Series and it's, you know. It's another one of the hazy New England style, which I'm on record, not being the biggest fan of. Their parasitology. All of my as I've been forced to learn to tolerate them even if they're causing a reduction fitness, just use Paris ties in a negative way. Like. I'm confused about the point you're trying to make Ryan is the is the gusanos in MS Cala person. Hey. I guess. So. I mean the at it is it just gets into the Ave in into the my gay starts eating it funny like you think of apples bad. Apple has a worm in it, but there's not like you don't think of like apple brandy is having a little Cassano at the bottom. Kids. They're not in a hurry. I know strong opinions about Moscow, but what is the what strong opinion are you bringing about what you're actually drinking this evening l. I am having double. I ta today from wicked. We'd Berlin company at of beer from Wigan we to. I. Fully over that both of you guys this. Also, we're all buying drinks in the same general market. Yesterday, the beer store, Beverly in I kid you not like that every single beer label in the store because I wanted a beer specifically for this episode. So the one that found it's called freak of nature, perfect at that it was. So our sites are just freaks. Kelly, you'll be the nice way. I do totally what a freak, the nature look at them. Go. Thank you. Yes, we're on the same page. Yeah. It's my home. Great. It is actually very delicious. Now, talk about something else that's terrible ball Canas, even worse. They'll just make you all make both of you mad at me and then you can team up against me. Pretty sure you don't think volcano, terrible canes. They're beautiful. With all the. You know, the problem with history keeps coming back like. One doesn't. Keeps. Just. Just. So typical sort of fashion. I posted a few different stories for the both of you to choose from posted four Kelly data to. And then Abe picked the final one, the price of rice, apprise. It's about volcano. So tell us what's going on. Yeah. So not only about volcanoes bells about Iceland because you know it's made up of all canines. So this article is about a recently published study, and I'll mention the name of the article. I because it got picked up by the media very quickly and spread with a message those that quite ever at all, even in the same words included in the original research paper. So the article that we are talking about is titled is Iceland's cut level kaneohe really about to erupt. So this article is written response to slurry of news reports. Claiming that new study showed that cut LA. One of Iceland's largest most dangerous volcanoes was about to erupt in all of this is basically information Tannock in out of context from published of study that came out recently in geophysical research letters. The title that study is globally significant CO two emissions from Kotla glacier volcano in Iceland. The study itself was led by Guinnea Ilian sky. Yeah, I apologize if I pronounced that wrong, but it's the lead author based out of the university of Leeds in one thing that was very interesting that they found that was lightly different from what we understood about these volcanoes in Iceland previously is that the emission of CO two from gutless of Leyshon volcano is a lot higher than was previously thought to be. There's a lot more a to be released. Released just in general, it's actually a signature that can be picked up, and I believe in the study, they mentioned something like four or five percent of global CO to CO. Two emissions might be coming from these subglacial volcanoes in a believe, got lot alone as about five percent, and it's not insignificant for a single all kaneohe. But you know, in the bigger context is still kind of of airy, tiny amount of the overall emissions of SIA two into the atmosphere. Can interrupt ask why it's releasing carbon is just burning up stores of carbon because the magma so hot or something not not necessarily. So it's still I've learned one thing from being friends with Abe for a long time. It's at one of all kaneohe does something. The answer is usually, well, we'll know because it's under ground. What is your best guess for why volcanoes release any carbon troll poured baking soda in to the acid. The free attic eruption and that releases CO two. Accent, I said, troll Iceland? Yeah. No, I I was with you on that. Making sure all straight here. So the sorts itself is, of course, the magma chamber beneath the volcanic structure, and this is something that will Cain os just naturally do. They release gases, one of them being carbon dioxide to to, but I'll sulfur dioxide in a host of others. Methane in Iceland is probably one of the most get among the most active volcanoes areas in the planet. And so the CO two flocks at these volcanoes, it's monitored Purdy regularly. But you know that still it's very time and resources tentative to be monitored for these gases. So to be able to understand where it's coming from in the causes of all of this releases, its these are all natural releases. So it's doesn't mean that something is happening, which just happened to men. Sure. Higher mounds of CO two coming out of his volcano, which is different than what our previous understanding was. That's the beauty of these studies is going back to our conversation Scott earlier today, we found something those pricing in different from our understanding, and it brings up a few extra questions that require additional work to answer. So lots of different scenarios that could be making the CO two as flocks out of this. Okay, nice high as it is. But one thing that that they should be clear as this doesn't necessarily mean that the activities increased. And so that's something that this article trying highlight just because we are finding things that are different about this volcano doesn't mean that it's inherently all of a sudden more dangerous or more ready to erupt in. And as I have stressed in the past many times, which is can't predict eruptions in one of the frustrating things in science communication is when you know you provide some kind of results from your studies and you try to do it and as simple language as possible and is still gets misreported or misconstrued and changed into something that's completely not. And so earlier this month, this the the report, the original report of this new study eventually evolved into, oh my God. This volcano got lot is about to erupt again. So we are now preparing for another two thousand ten Iceland eruption esque event that is going to stop all air space travel between Europe in the Americas. Right. Sounds like a lot of the English language reporting that's been overblown. An over hyped has been coming out of the UK because they were more. Impacted by the eruption in twenty grand than the US was, and but they also speak English so we can see their publications, their news outlets more easily without the need for translation. And if you kind of just basic facts and figures about Kulta when you say it's a subglacial volcano, that means that the volcano was actually under an ice sheet wrecked. Somewhat partially iced over it is interacting directly with a glacier or in an ice sheet in the case of got LA, the crater where the entire rupture would happen or the main site where the eruptions would happen because it does have flank eruptions like we saw in the case of a in two thousand ten it can occur in the crater area. Does that Kelly. I can't believe he said that he didn't trip over it. He practices don't let them. This day. I still practice twice a week. Cutler has a summit area that is entirely covered by a small ice sheet or very large glacial. Right? And so it hasn't erupted enough to break the ice cover in since nineteen eighteen about one hundred dollars, right? Which is kind of interesting, but what this study found, one of the big takeaway points that I think is would be more relevant folks like killing. I who think about animal systems and climate is that they estimate that this volcano Cutler alone is contributing up to four percent of the total global volcanic Arben dioxide emissions. I think relevant an important baseline bit of information here is how much of the overall carbon output do volcanoes make up overall five percent of one percent of all the Carbonell put or is it. Percent of seventy five percent. I think the sense I got from reading this stuff is that it was unexpected that a quota, an active, but non erupting volcano would be admitting that significant percentage of two. And so I'm not sure it's necessarily known and maybe I think this might have been the the dinner bell to like, hey, go look at this. Now, let's figure this out. Correct me on that. Okay, that that's that's a good way to put it is the one volcano emitting this much releasing is much CO. Two is not. It's not normal. It doesn't mean something is about to happen. It just means it's significantly different than what we thought was the case. So it's worth noting. It's worth publishing in. It's worth studying some more, and that's really the message that the authors are trying to drive across. Is that, hey, look, we found something different in new. We need to study more declare his the point that we need to do a better job at quantifying this value for all volcanoes cause. Apparently we don't have a good framework for thinking about it or is it that we have a pretty good idea of how much carbon volcanoes should be putting into the atmosphere and this one's an outlier. So we need to study this one in particular to figure out what's happening here. So I think the point is. More that volcanoes even when they're not actively erupting, still be releasing a high amount of CO. Two. Yeah. If I read a correctly, it was this may be an outlier, but we also haven't really been measuring this as a source, and so we need to actually start measuring things that we didn't think we need to measure before. Yeah, I would agree with that enter petition. Ryan. I think you know really highlights the what they're driving here is we should be doing more sampling for gases specifically in that just that the volcanoes were. We already do that because they're active, but potentially in large volcanoes that we know have arrested in recent time that maybe they're not actively showing signs of all connectivity every day. And that could be everything simple as you go to Yellowstone and UCD gassing UC geysers in via Merle's. That's active gassing you'll see very little of this. Coupla. A lot of it may be obscured by the all ice cap at the top. And so going back to Ryan statements, we might just have missed it because we're not measuring every volcano that's not active in. A lot of times attempt to justify the expense of measuring these kinds of parameters gas releases would justify them by when something becomes active in slightly more of a threat. You know, in at that point you kick in and say, all right, something is different than what was happening before. So we should pay more attention to it to. So we understand what, how it's changing. Does that make sense? It does. I, I have one more silly baseline question that will reveal that. I don't know anything about Roquetas. Well, the answer is it means kettle from old Norse at LA. What what is now? That's a good question I should've asked, but that's not the question that I had. My question is how many volcanoes of this sort are. There is Kotla one of twenty so proportionately it's producing about as much carbon as you would expect or are there like thousands of thousands of all canines like this l. in Iceland alone, there are about six or seven under icecaps that are significant. I believe that's just Iceland. There are not very many areas in the world that are both highly volcanically active end clay stated or actively being glaciated. You know, whether it's with glaciers is caps or whatever. Size of ice structure and article would be the other major one where we know there is a kenneka tippety happening little bit harder to detect that because there's, you know, tweet or four kilometers of ice over the cross in Tactica an-and there are some areas in the Andes that are volcanically active with some glacial cover that's quickly going away. That's just is symbol, Qena interactions. You know that. Number for the number of all cameras that are up in the past ten thousand years if you want that. Sure. One thousand four hundred thirty four that with eruptions that we know of from the last ten thousand years. That's the Holocene. That's the end of the last ice age currently as of today. Forty actually as of the twenty second of August. So as of a month ago, forty one volcanoes with ongoing Russians in the world. All right. And I know that because the Smithsonian Institution maintains a global Vulcan ISM program with databases of volcanoes of various kinds. Isn't that neat? It is fantastic. It's actually I received the weekly report. Really. I didn't make. It is fantastic. Until she award of all canines are still active. What a new canes have become active in the last week, what volcanoes have stopped being active or changed in their status of activity in the last week site very much encourage anybody who's interested in finding out what volcanoes are, even what areas or like Brian just found a how many are active. You can go to the volcano that as I does dot EDU of in this is fantastic Nedeli that they maintain this active database of eruptions in tippety. They also have a database of volcanoes periods so you can go in and pull up of all kaneohe and you'll have the entire history of ruptures for that volcano that we know of. And that's one caveat that will put on the number that Ryan just mentioned those the eruptions that we know of there are potentially. Hundreds of thousands more that we don't eight hundred. Eight hundred number on the internet. If it wasn't true. That's a good point. So he's xactly the number of eruptions that have occurred, where are we talking your scientists license, Ryan. The exact number of fossils we found. I could give you an exact number that was definitely correct. I think this is zero zero. It's probably more than forty, but as lead kind of this leads a little bit to the topic that I pitched earlier that you said you wanted to talk about and that Kelly was also interested in is the question is what Kenneth activity increasing worldwide, and the answer. No, you just think it is because we are reporting on it better, although talking about Cutler and the reporting that went on there makes it seem like we are not reporting it as. So no wonder you think it's increasing because you're being told volcanoes are going to erupt when they are not great. So this is actually more of a psychological effect that it is a geological affect different psychology affects right. I was gonna talk about recency bias and primacy bias, but did you wanna talk about one killing that. What were you over you trying to drive at where you trying to make a joke and I stepped on it. No, no, no. I wasn't making a joke, but I appreciate that. You thought that I was making a joke. I just remembered three, but there were actually two. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, def. I wanna touch on communication and technology, but listed that after that Carlotti what I don't wanna get too deep into this article. We will link to it for people to check it out. And it's also a question that is answered it a little bit more scientific geologic detail on the Smithsonian website which will also linked to, but there's recency bias, which is you tend to believe in idea strongly when something has happened more recently. So the idea of a basketball player being on fire, like if they've made a previous basket, you believe they're more likely to make the next basket. Even though those two things aren't correllated accents. They're independent trials of basket, baking basket, baking. Player basket. Man, LeBron James really weaves a great wicker basket held all my pizza fire. I don't think that baskets. The basket because that's what was Dr Naismith used for the original kicking myself. Sorry, Dr. Naismith anyway. So it's just the idea that like if you've recently seen the thing happen, you're more likely to believe that that same thing will happen again, and then there's an idea called privacy bias where your brain favors the information you I learned, which is why I like this happened to me all the time. I'll be in a conversation with somebody and then remember like, oh, I know weird fact about this, but it's a fact that I learned in elementary school or middle school, and then I'll start to say it'll be like, I actually have no idea. Never because I was told it in middle school and believed it because I was not. But then now I realize any to look it up, but I'll never forget even if I find out it's wrong, I'll have a really hard time forgetting the not correct fact. Today. They rain around the Rosie song. They kids saying I was told that that that that song came up during the Bhubaneshwar Klay gears, I've heard that and I am reading a brief history of everyone who ever lived by Adam Rutherford. And he said that the people who study that kind of stuff are all like now that's totally wrong. I don't know why all the kids think that that's true, but apparently that there's not really good evidence that the ring around the Rosie song has anything to do with the bottom plate. The same for the foreign affiliation under consent of the king thing, what that would be an acronym for if you put the first letters together. You didn't hear about this one now. I'm mentally piecing it together right now, but occasion. Occasion under you got a king. There's apparently there's a whole linguistic thing where we come up with fake explanations for words, where we ascribe them to being acronyms and make up a story based on the acronym to explain the origin of the word. Even though in at least modern English acronyms are pretty recent thing like they weren't nobody in the thirteen hundred's was using acronyms for stuck. It's just striking. That's very funny that I have only a Laker to me now. Why would they use acronyms so anyway. Right. So yeah. So recently by some privacy bias, two very interesting things. And then as we're talking about, people are reporting on volcanoes more, especially because you know, when there's a really big news story, like if I Oko outta to do. Close. I think it makes the news media more likely to cover those stories in the future because there was one that had this really big impact. And then we were also even though we're not doing a perfect job of monitoring, we are monitoring volcanoes better. So there is more data available on the state of more volcanoes worldwide, because of global population increases more people live near dangerous volcanoes and then just the general overabundance and quick spreading of information that has happened because of how connected the world is. So in the same way, you hear about like a murder in a town. You don't live in and you're upset by even though it doesn't really have an impact on your day to day life, but it gets reported on and you feel an emotional response to it, even though it's not necessarily something that you need to be informed of to go about your day. So that kind of has a psychological effect on us. It's all these things coming together, gives people a perception that volcanic activity is increasing where it is actually stayed pretty level, which was why. Second half of our theme this week was media magma. Coastal along the median dumbing since I tried to run through that quickly. Yeah. And the big point here is we have changed very quickly in the way that we received news rents. You think about twenty years ago without Twitter and without any of these, something that happened, even even in Austria would not get to you for probably days now minutes after something happens, you know about it or at least if you're tuned in the information spreads around the globe in seconds. And so that has a massive, massive effect because now, even if there's nobody there to witness it, we have satellites that can pick up in this particular case only talking about eruptions we can detect eruptions from satellites. And so all of a sudden now we know where all of their up since are happening. We didn't have this technology a decade or two decades ago or wearing using it in this manner if we did have it. And so it's really a big. Big shift in. I actually started noticing that about four or five years ago with earthquakes in California that great ex- gays. He comic from Randall Munroe where shows that seismic waves PS waves from earthquakes travel at a certain rate through the earth's cross Astor's. So if you are on. Yeah, we could tweet about the earthquake and it could reach somebody before the actual seismic event reaches them right depending on the speed of the transmission and the speed of the quake and their distance epicenter. Exactly. And so this was the topic that came up years ago where people of a sudden like, oh my God, there are all of a sudden a lot more happening around the world. Back to the point is no. Now you're just finding out about them very quickly and you know, very consistently the same thing happening with hurricanes, ROY, actually, getting more those that's differently getting more than the drivers also that's different. That's where that we're actually, that's, you know, climate in weather patterns. We are actually affecting those is really hard for us to affect things that happened underneath the ground lake in the earth's crust. Those not a whole lot. We can do to influence things down whole fracking thing. But that's the. The whole thing with hurricanes is that we know that ocean temperature is one of the primary drivers of the frequency and strength of hurricanes, and we know that ocean temperature is increasing. And so essentially, if you think of the ocean as the battery that powers up each hurricane as it as it forms in the ocean and sends it slamming into the continent, that battery is is storing more and more charge because it's getting hotter and hotter. That was my sense that hurricanes were actually increasing in frequency, but I wasn't sure giving these days I was fooling myself. And that's one of those things where like climatologists are very careful to say we can't pin any one hurricane on climate change because obviously hurricanes were happening before we were anthroprogenic affecting the climate. But at the same time, there is going to be a general trend in the same way that climate itself as a general trend in probably increased frequency and increased power from the hurricanes due to the very simple relationship between water temperature and and hurricane power and size, which is why it's important to have journalists, he'll know about statistics or at least sort of the statistics that they can say stuff like this, like, hey volcanoes. This is a bad one, but this isn't a trend versus hurricanes. This is a bad one, and it's part of the trend. Yeah, I had a friend reach out to me after Florence asking they were confused by the way that we talk about things like these big storms and floods. And they were like, what do they mean when they say a ten year? One hundred thousand year storm. Because that's not something that I think people in less. You've had any sort of training in the subject? No. Fortunately, I did know because I think some class Abe and I took it Vendrell together. Basically a thousand years storm means that it is a storm that has a. One one thousand probability of occur. Yeah. Yeah, one in every one storm. In every thousand years. We'll be as powerful as that storm does not very elegant way of stating it, and he was like, why do we do it that way? And I assume that if anybody's listening to knows the answer that has some archaic way of how we've measured meteorological data over, you know, it's one of the oldest continually gathered data sets in human history is weather. And so I assume at some archaic form that made sense to people in the eighteen hundreds that just isn't super clear us now, right? And it's also been part of it. It's been it's continued to be a method used to assess with with flooding levels levels of risk. And this comes into play. They're heavily when you're deciding whether or not to build, you know, fifty feet from that river or seventy five feet from the river, right? If fifty feet isn't one hundred year flood plain, which means one. Every one flood and every hundred years is gonna hit that spot versus seventy five feet maybe in the thousand year flood plains. So only one flood and every years that's an order magnitude different risk. But it doesn't feel that way with the way we talk about to me anyway. It doesn't feel and it's twenty feet of difference. Yeah, but that's how it happens. And we'd love to see five thirty style journalism permeate the way we talk about these sorts of things. Well, you every time Patrick sends me a listing when they open up job for a new science reporter, but it's not there. I would love to work for five thirty eight. I don't think I could handle it be even more stressed out than I am all the time. Well, I I would rather keep studying my periods, but I do love five thirty eight a little bit of a break from five thirty eight after the election because they weren't pissed off enough. But I've been going back now because you know, with the midterms coming up and me getting nervous, I've been checking back to check in the site. So there we sponsor was reasonable, but but whenever anyway we don't have five thirty eight reasonable anymore. Frigging out. You guys want to know about another risky activity, be back from the listeners. Head over to our final segment of show the paleo Powell mountain. Segment of the show where we deal with feedback from the listeners, and it's a great segment, and we have a lot of fun with that, but we need to start with something a little less fun this time. And I need to read a brief statement about an update to our Twitter accounts policy. Back won't begin. The show Twitter actually was kind of tame place or at least felt that way. So we had sort of an unofficial policy that we were pretty consistent about where anyone who interacted with us, we would follow them back. So if you mentioned us, if you add it us, if you responded to something, we'd follow you back. And in that time we only hit the block one person for being abusive, and we repeatedly asked them to stop and they didn't. And so we blocked them. However, it recently came to my attention that the show's account was following a man who is harassing female scientists, friend of mine and a former guest of the show looked up this dude's account. And when you do that, Twitter tells you if anyone you follow happens to also be following the count you're looking at. And so they saw that we were following him and they let me know embarrassed about obviously. So we unfold him. I asked if there was anything else we could do or should do to make things right on our ender just generally help out that situation. Obviously, one big change. We're going to do is we're gonna be a little bit more careful about who choose to. Follow. So if if when you interact with us and I have a moment to actually go through your Twitter feed and it looks okay, I'll probably fall back, but if I don't have time or if there's even a whiff that something's a little off, we're just not gonna follow because we don't want to encourage that. And so it's gonna make growing our community in that space a little slower, but hopefully keep out the bad eggs. But also because this person was tweeting at us, I assumed that they were listening to the show at some point. So maybe they still are. And I want to comment on that directly because if you listen to the show, you almost certainly think of yourself as a fan of science. So I can't believe I have to say this here we are don't harass women online. You were dude and your feeling is, but I just want clarification. I just want to know more and it just so happens that the scientists that you often respond to demands of that form or another are female stop, don't do it. And here's a clarification. Twitter is not the place for unsollicited peer review period. No one knows you an explanation and you are not entitled to a debate just because you happen to be on the same platform. Actual vice us in my life. And I know that other men I know us online is if you read every single tweet or response right before you send it out in the worst possible tone, you can imagine, you will see the worst way you might come across. Even if that's not your intention seriously. Just try it instead of asking for the benefit of the doubt afterwards, take it away from yourself first and see how you sound is even if your intentions are good, you might be surprised by how easily your words can be turned against you if is received by someone who just isn't in the mood for it at that moment. Now it is more work to use the internet that way. But if you feel like you really are a good guy and can't figure out why people keep getting annoyed with you tried out for a little bit rephrased things. If you can to change the tone or just delete the draft of the thing you were gonna say, go for a walk. I promise you that every scientist on Twitter is aware of the criticisms of our work because we tell it to each other as a part of this process, we bicker with our colleagues about. Minute show you would not believe and the little nagging voice in her head is very aware of every little thing we could have done better on every project. So we really, really don't need anyone to pile on. Just don't. This concludes the brief statement about our Twitter policy update. Thanks for listening. Amen. Well, said. Didn't want to have to do it, but you know, it's just can have it and have it people. With that out of the way. Let's get back to the fun and let us come up with a patron thesis for our beloved patron. Julius. Julie has signed up to give us a little bit of money every month over on patriot dot com. Slash science, sort of wonderful platform supporting raiders of all kinds, even web cartoonist. Awesome. Thank you, jury. Thank you so I don't have any additional information about Julie. So let's use what we talked about in this episode and see if we can't come up with a cool parasite. Vulcanology related fake thesis title for her. All right. Okay. Knows a nice parasites. And parasites doesn't have to include both of this. Six, no, but that's the that's sort of how we try to formulate these these. Like what? If what if there's a parasite that makes humans less afraid of all Kino's. That would benefit the parasite talk. So plasma cats. Why. Because it's, it's, it's, this isn't a real degree Kelly. Hit. You know. So attraction benefits talks, plasma guy. What if there's a parasite that loves the cold in loves the nutrients that come out of an active all k- know in the cold, but every time it rubs it gets flushed out in the new uses humans to get back to the ice. But that into title. We try to do a literary here too. I feel like that's a layer we've had everything. Well, we try to just keep. We try to make it sound like a actual title to a scientific paper, or you know, sometimes a pithy shorter phrase coal in the long science sounding thing that you actually would have made the title if you're just being technical. But you tried to have a little bit of fun something, but you're still talking heat heat seeking. He must birdie ends. Have humans hunker down near heat, something like heat seeking humus Britain's, driving human colonization of volcanically warmed soils if drop the alliteration thread. But if that's not important, that's five of the whole thing doesn't need to be alliterative. Okay, where scientists not let majors you got hung up on the alliteration than I think it's, it's hurting us you got, but that's a good start. The heat seeking the most, the drive, say. Say was parasites that live in blood, the glacier mechanic environments. All right, volcanically glacial environments you can't really call it is not humans. Heat-seeking Hemas Britain's was sacrificing virgins in volcanoes, anti-parasite defense. Almost as possible. Get hung up on any volcanically ice caves. So I'm thinking heat-seeking the hemispheric drive human colonization of volcanically. Thermo regulated soil margins going to say, icecapades scares cool. Chemically Thermo regulated though. Thermally regulated ice volcanoes? Yeah. Well, I think Oregon's drivers of human habitation of thermally regulated volcanic, ice caves. Done. Thanks. Julie make you really awesome. Stairs. I want to hear your results. Duly Bill works fun. Interests here is an volcanoes. Just sits there if you're doing field or right. I don't know. I keep hearing that we don't really have a way of predicting when they're gonna go off. Kelly. Do you have some feedback for us? Okay. It's a, I have a comment that I wanna make. So I recently gave a department seminar at the university of central Florida. And I talked to Katie met nNcholas and Veronica in the savage lab at UCF and met Atkinson said that he listens to science. So I just wanted to say, thanks for listening. You made my day when you said that awesome. Hey. That. That was awesome. Hey, Matt, thanks for listening. We appreciate you. And yeah. Did you hear about what work the savage lab does? Yeah. They studied tumors on turtles, protozoan parasites in frauds that are poorly understood terrestrial and CBN's plasticity and for anyway, they do lots of awesome stuff. Cool. But that is not the paleo pow that I was supposed to address today. I just couldn't help myself. So to get to my task at hand, I am talking about an Email today from Travis. The subject of which was dinosaur empire and the body of the Email read this, hey, I was unreasonably excited when my favorite scientists and favorite web calmest saris Eck both appeared in a podcast together episode to seventy one. It was a great episode. I was a bit bummed out at abbey self deprecating humor. Sometimes I wasn't sure if it was humor, Abby, you're awesome. I just received the shipment confirmation of dinosaur empire, volume one. I look forward to reading it with my five. Year old. Keep up the great work. Travis, Travis one. I agree that Abbes. Awesome. And to your awesome. I'm sure you'll in your grill. They're gonna love abbey's book because me and my four year old totally did. Thank you for your Email. Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Travis. Doesn't feel like that long ago, Kelly, but it was almost a year ago we had on the show now it was a year ago the eclipse remember. All right. Molly. I got about the eclipse. Podcast eclipses clips. It did. All right. His car. Great tweets. We just butterfly in the sky initiate twice as high protocol. Lavar Burton, like it was good moment for everyone all on the internet. Hey, what do you have for us? Man, I end up of my favorite types of reviews, five star review. From what platform. Good question. And I tuned review five star. I tunes review. We like those. We'd love them. We know who left the review. It's by Dr. Carl Sagan, what a live and secretly tunes somewhat amazing. He may have this from the actor universe, the other side of the black hole, other galaxy, not really sure what he put it on the golden disk, Voyager being back from cloud ad like that carry the vest. Well, what car? I'll have to say about our show very nervous. I mean, he's a criminal. You know, he's a preeminent and science popularizer. So I really hope a thoughtful and well reasoned critique of what we're doing here, take Hewlett sort of. Did give us five stars. So that's already. Already metoo. So Dr Carl Sagan says the title of his his or her review. Its review is a whole episode about terrace oars question Mark. Exclamation Mark question market Flemish Mark. You can start Tara bang, double the terrifying, double integral bang, terro Bank that we don't. We don't have time. We don't have time. What's the review. You're just confusing. Me bang. And Dr Carl Sagan says, sort of just enough science nonsense and tasty beverages so that I feel like I am at the bar hanging with my geo colleagues until Tara sewers. If you haven't tuned into listen to episode two eighty five, where Kevin and Ryan and Juliana the down to talk about territories in the sky, then you should head on over to signed sort of dot com and have listened to it. 'cause it was awesome as evidenced by this five star review. And if you think that Juliana drops off towards the end of that recording, it's not because we were excluding her because she had played to breed therby rotor belts that we and fell asleep at the table. Star review, but we finished the podcast, but we didn't really keep asking a question. So Dr Carl Sagan. Thank you very much for the five star review. We love it. It helps other potential listeners find their way to us. So yeah, it's a lot. Thank you. Keep tuning in. All right. Well, that about wraps it up for this week Kelly. You got anything to plug. Unis has come out in additional languages. There's the Spanish language version in Spain, a Korean version in South Korea, the not crazy Korea, and it's also in Mandarin and some other language. Since I know I'm really excited where can I get the Spanish version? I can send you one because it's only available. It's through Blackie books in Spain, but I have a bunch of extra copies. I would love that Spain Spanish. You wouldn't understand word of also in Brazil will ahead. The English one in stand at least three awards. German to anyway, you're going to have to come to Charlottesville I'm picking up. Yes, yes. We'll go to three nights Rury which is our local brewery, which is fantastic and I will give you a copy of the book. Awesome. Okay. Awesome. And then I'll Beth. Yes. And you. Faces. Exactly. Well, I teed it. I looked at a picture of you. I followed you on Twitter, and although I can't really see much of your face on your Twitter account. You got me. That the photo I put on your Twitter account or have you changed since I forced you to get a Twitter account. No, I wouldn't have used that one. It's you Antarctica with a Parco l.. It's a mustache balaclava. Very cool. Yeah. All right. So check out soon in your language of choice and Abe. Suming you don't have anything to plug, but I want to give you chance. Got something. Go forth and science their science. Also, if you read anything about like volcanoes about to erupt in the internet or in your local newspaper, do not. Don't believe it does go in. Ask your Niro's vulcanologist or gut volcano sl that the, you know? Yeah, plug a good resource for non. The word I'm looking for the word where they make things blow out of proportion in terms of their outer eight. Overblown overblown good one, especially for volcanoes, but it's not the word. Total question. That at that for non overblown volcano content. Ever clever by accident these days. Also it's people don't believe me, but it's much harder to be clever when the microphone light is on. Yes, yes, it does something to your brain can't explain it. Someone needs to. We need to give that out of the patron thesis. One of these days, somebody's studies, the effect of having knowing the microphone is turned on making you stupid. Or you can Twitter at any of us in if we don't know the answer or we can't judge something thoroughly, we know we can refer you to better places of information that we know are reliable. Yeah before now. But after this comes out, I will have done a webinar for a did a webinar for them previously. But this is my second one with chain Hanlin who is one of their sharing science folks who also does the third pod from the sun age. You podcast which is a great podcast name, big fan of the name and the podcast, and we're gonna be doing Levin on science podcasting and talking to hopefully primarily scientists about what it takes to do science podcast, but also something I've never talked about before which Kelly got a little preview from an Email thread how to be a good guest on a science podcast. So the Lebanon will of already happened, but they always record them and you go back and rewatch them. So if you're interested in starting your own show or being a guest on other people show and sounding your best, go check out that webinar. Yeah. All right. Well, one less plug for Scott. Go check out his website and hopefully we'll get him or some of the folks from his lab back on with future updates on that work because it sounds assing the complexities of parasitism constantly perplexed is awesome. And the people in his lab. Hey, parasites though. Your raw, those freaks of nature here both row. This is this is right help being wrong, signing off for episode. Two ninety to come back next time to ninety three. We'll be sure to give you a whole more science. Muscle metals, visit science, sort of dot com for show notes links to all the stories we talked about and waste interact with the host guests. And other listeners science sort of is brought to you by the regular media network of podcasts with audio engineering by ten of the encyclopedia brunch podcast. That's all for this week. See you next time on science. All right. You know. Wait, good. Times on him again. In town this weekend or headed out. Again, we are heading to the western parts of Virginia because it is golly season mother. What the golly Gauley is a river in West Virginia, that damn controlled whitewater river spring and fall right. Gonna go kayak boat white raft at whitewater rafting eight person inflatable raft, and we're doing two days on the river, the upper river in the lower. So nice.
Richard Pryor & Tim Conway listen to Dr. Lenden Smith talk about pediatrics, 1979
"Either everybody welcome to the Johnny Carson. Show podcast here's your host will schreiner. That's me and I'll be looking back at a show from January twelfth. Nineteen seventy nine with two of the great comedy minds that made us laugh for so many years. The Wonderful Richard. Pryor and of course Tim Conway Tim Conway Anway sadly died in May of two thousand nineteen but I grew up watching Instant Parker and Mikhail's navy. Tim had a funny. You know he had a very funny bit with Dorf. He had four or five videos where he did DORF which was a a guy a very short. It was sort of a dwarf kind of character that he created he would do it from on his knees and the way he moved around. I made it. was you know. I don't think anybody could not laugh. When they met Dorf He had Harvey Korman Struck. Comedy Gold over and over again on the Carol Burnett show particularly when Tim was trying to crack up harvey and Harvey was trying not to break. It was always something that we as an audience. We knew what was going on and we just love watching it. Tim also did voiceover. He was on spongebob. Bob And he was on On a bunch of Scooby Doo and a bunch of things as a voice actor. So that's our show Richard Pryor will get a second but of course Richard. Pryor Richard Pryor is is on the Mount Rushmore of comedy in so many People's opinion But let's talk about the monologue I. It's a short monologue today There's some jokes about McDonald's in a company sunny in England that tried to come out with a McDonald's knock off The big MAC and Johnny gets a few laughs. Out of that that outcomes Tim Conway to plug his special show and then after he plugs it he wants to just leave and it's funny because Tim is kind of a quiet interview as funny as he was he. He's very quiet in the interview and You you know he just really I think is there. The plug is special. I don't know if he's intimidated by johnny or an offer Johnny but You know it's not it doesn't flow like it does with so many other guests then they get into talking about earthquakes. They talk about some of the earthquakes in California. There's a couple of jokes In reference to the interview not really working so I I think it might be a little Inside but it also might have been a little awkward who knows but you give us an unyielding sun the second guess is Richard Pryor who you know as a kid. I think probably one of the first Comedians I saw in the end Sullivan show was Richard Pryor and watching him sitting at the floor at the foot on my parents bed and laughing I think subtly one of the one of the people that made me want to become a comedian and even growing up in a community family when I was a comedian but seeing prior on Sullivan show he just so likable. And he the You know he had in the early stages he wasn't as he got a little more controversial as as his career went on but he was very much you can see the influence of Bill Cosby and others in his early stand. Stand up career days I got to see a many times work at the comedy store. He used to come in and work out his material in the early eighties. When he was getting ready for his His TV specials specials. He would come in the comedy store and we all were in awe so many of the young comedians was standing in the back and watch him work and of course whenever they would announce Richard Pryor special. She'll guest tonight Richard. Pryor the crowd went crazy. So that's a a a part of my comedy memories that I'll never forget. Richard had done a movie. Co California Foreigner Suite with Bill Cosby and it had gotten some criticism and that is one of the things. Richard I guess this seems to bother Richard. Johnny asked him who made up his audience. And he said you know for the most part You know black people or mixed but in this audience long beach was mostly white and he talked about a joke. That couldn't work because it was not not his normal crowd he. He has a funny story about Chinese waiter that he saw and they both talked fondly about China and one day going there. Richard Pryor died sadly at Sixty five years of age in two thousand thousand five. It was his third heart attack and he had suffered from MS for a number of years. Richard had been married seven times to five different women but As is an actor as a comic. He's a legend he's on everybody's list of top COMEDIANS. He was number one on comedy. Central Number one comedian. The comedy Central List. He is rolling stone named him number one of the fifty best comedians. He had a tremendous influence on so many of our young comedians working today because Richard was not afraid ready to attack a controversial subject and find the laughter in and find the humor in in in racism. And everything else that was you no hurtful in those days. So Richard Pryor legend. He redid his own autobiography movie. That he co directed and that he wrote and directed called Jo Jo Dancer to answer and that was about his life although it was not a success It was still an amazing look at his life in nineteen eighty. He set himself bonfire while freebasing which was tragic and he used it. I mean not being afraid to use it in eighty two. He made fun of it in his special and he held held up a match and had a bouncing down. Because this is your impression of Richard Pryor running down the road he was a guy who is not afraid to laugh at himself. He won an Emmy Award. He won five Grammy Emmy Awards. He Co hosted the Academy Awards a couple of times. He's been awarded the Kennedy Center Mark Twain Award. I remember the pairing of him and gene wilder and silver streak. Yeah those two guys just had a chemistry. You can't You can't describe Richard was even superman three. So here's our show. Third guests is a baby. Doctor WHO I don't know where this interview goes. It gets very odd because the doctor comes out. He's he's a great guests in a sense he doesn't wait for questioning. Starts going but there is chaos and lack of focus on on the set. And you'll hear that throughout the interview. It's a short monologue at college. Baby I saw Yanni. Yeah they I hope we have showed justify that I should explain. I'm still at a nutty mood from last night. I'm going strictly bananas. I think there's a full moon. Isn't that close to it late bulletin. I just took off the teletype yes just came on. I think united fresh. CBS announced that all in the family will be returning turning next year with Billy Carter playing the role of Archie bunker. The have you been following the lawsuit in Israel versus McDonald's if you haven't seen that is hysterical but Donald got very angry because some sharpie in Israel I think it was in Tel Aviv. Opened a place called Mac David's in which he sold big MACs and they had the McDonald's logo up there and McDonald's here in this country did not think that was very funny and they sued the guy and they won the first round. The judge has barred Mac. David's the place in Israel from from using the words big Mac menu. Now Mac Davis is that they're not copying McDonald's whatsoever it matter of fact they said mcdavid claims that their a big Mac is completely different in the big Mac you it contains meet the long trip relaxed but we got there and another government report. This was on smoking. Also but something else about it in an effort to get people to stop smoking marijuana in this country the government is thinking about putting a sales tax on rolling paper. Yeah you're right. Yeah so people are coming up with some alternatives Zigzag Today on TV. I saw Mr whipple saying. Please don't smoke the Sharman anyway tonight. I'm looking forward to the show. This is going to be crazy or or we're not. We have Mr Richard Pryor and Tim Conway together on the same we have the we have docker Lyndon Smith a little baby doctor famous baby doctor. We do that all the time. And we're going to keep doing it so thanks for coming and we'll be right with you. Look forward to donate shell for a lot of reasons. We have two extremely funny gentleman. And here's one here. That breaks me up all the time. He has won an emmy. He's given television viewers. Many many hilarious moments over the year especially with the Carol Burnett show and he's going to have his own special. It's called and they had a lot of conference about what to call us and they came up with the executives with the the Tim Conway show they were going to call it. Hello Tim but they decided to call at the Tim Conway show and it's going to there's big conference about this is going to ear. They say what they made the show. It's good that it's going to be shown actually this coming Monday night January fifteen at eight. PM on another network. Do you think people go to other shows on another network and talk about shows. They're GONNA be on this network. Probably hope always say on another network they mean they mean us when they say that. And of course you can check your local chase calendar events which network that is welcome leaking all over the AH Mr Tim Conway Tonight. uh-huh it just just right. Thank you know but it was a funny sketch. Ah personal opinions are not withstand. No it really was. I didn't know you were doing that. Actually live yesterday. I saw you coming running back there where that's stuff give you back very nice. Yeah you've you've heard me talking about those changes you've gone through a lot of those over the years and it does get hysterical back there. I was playing Vegas one time I was supposed to come out in a different outfit. Didn't have thirty seconds to do it in and there were two girls who are changing me which was great and they did the whole thing and I came out. I didn't have the shirt on just the tie and the whole thing and got the shirt you get nothing you can do about it. No No 'cause you're on an IT's show business that's important. Yeah it is your life. Isn't it show. Businesses says my life. Yes for the most part of it. Now you have an exciting it is to get paid for the thing you you love to do is go out and entertain audience. Mary yourself your audience is to get a couple of laughs and make other people smile when you're so miserable and take home a few weeks. Yeah that's important estimate. That's the main thing a lot of people don't think we're in for the money but I am. I've often heard that. Yeah just a a lot of people think I want to get to the top. That's not necessarily so paychecks. The big thing I don't particularly care about ratings or anything if the paycheck clears I and many of them in this business. Haven't but neither here. Yeah I've not seen you for the last time. You only come here when you got something to plug. That's uh so the show will be on money at eight o'clock network. Yeah if I could plug now can I go okay. Should never do the plug at the last last. You see that's right. Yeah it's an interesting show. It's six minutes long. Yeah which is the important thing. A lot of the shows are short but This is We we thought Caroline Joe who are also man and wife as you may know. Nah Joe Hamilton. Didn't you quash quash. Oh you silly because year they thought of a thing that especially I think it Kinda applies to my show that there should be a comedy the patrol that instead of getting a rating that After the show the comedy patrol comes by and if you show is bad they actually come to your house and shoot you. It wouldn't that prevent a lot of bad shows really. Could you'd think twice before you actually put a show on. Vigilante guy comes and says the soya show take it out of show. Business can no longer perform. There wouldn't be much left on television. Well if you only shot in the foot it wasn't that bad you haven't done a special since a special. Yeah I knew there was a time gap the what is. He wouldn't do one Thursday and makes you want to do one every night a special being on every night so it's been some time since you've done your Latte special. It's been almost it almost a year and the last one We were doing. The folks came down from the network and said don't do this anymore. Possibly doing I know they did. That was a funny show. I thought that was the one on. Yeah I was also almost an hour long too. That's important then get an hour long. That's right now. How is the new? You're treating everything going well Real fine yeah. It's been a real good year so that's one of our stock item. You've been here a long time. You will jump at anything. I love the our our the kids and Yeah I love starting with an earthquake. I thought that was good. Yes were you. During one of the first hit I was watching as most people. The Rose Bowl and head to You know get the kids out of the way to get outside because situation gets cluttered with all that door janitor. The people they really are. I've never found that out until a crisis like that. They will try to protect themselves. Liberty is grim. We had the eighth when the other one hit which was about what maybe a year ago. Remember the one that hit early in the morning. Six thirty number of course. Yeah but after the big one. Then you all you got at the flashlights. And you've got The you know everything prepared and you said okay go down the stairway of it hits up there and then one hit about a year later and they all remembered him with six forty five in the morning so we all ran outside in our underwear and There were on the front lawn Eight of us in our underwear now. The people going by in a car. I don't know there was an earthquake or a lot of that tour bus going. By the way home we always come out here and underwear about six forty five. You know I keep saying every time. There's an earthquake for. Maybe you do this. Also you know maybe some first aid supplies Coleman Stove and case the gas goes out and and One of those big beam lights and I never do. Well I think if you have all those provisions would the people who don't have him come and beat you up and take them away because I also have a very big gun. Yeah that's good good at keeping the sore losers away from your front door to you. Every man for himself would hope to become a looter in a situation. Like that's right. Yeah Yeah those are scary though. They really You don't know until you've been through one. They're actually like I am married like one that was about six strangely enough you know Bob Newhart show the night. They had that big when I was about six years ago when a rumbled at about six six forty or six thirty in the morning and that night while we were doing the show there was one of those aftershocks And we heard it from the back of the audience because they felt the building and you were just a new heart and I looked at these. They don't like us. We're dying because you heard this. Aw and we're on and it came down and all of a sudden we you still have the tape. Yeah and you see the camera. Remember we've replayed it and you see the camera just for second. Go like this. Actually with the cameramen yes. He was over already having a couple Margaritas. By the time you know in doing a lot of shows we as we do the physical stuff they put out a wire to do flips and things like that and then they hang when you. I was at universal one time when they thought we funding to leave me there at lunch. You know just hanging twelve feet off the ground so now whenever I do any of those things the the first thing I get a pair of work because if you're doing something and there's an earthquake you don't find a stagehand going we're going to get him down in the forty eight yard. Barstool is on the bus on the way. That was a big one. Yeah you can't screw those things. The situation's critical situation. You keep composed women. They say always looked at men but you find women sometimes are much more calm and can think little clear in a situation like that. I will normally grab a woman it'd be. I think it's important drawer on top of your right. Yeah yeah no I kind of panic yeah. I don't I don't handle that well at all. I try to act calm but I cry everything trying to be cool but unless you've really been an earthquake it's just there's nothing to acquainted with. Yeah it's a little disorienting and everything Kinda goes this way and you don't know what religion and the noise. That's okay. Well that's cute. How do you keep them on their correct? Okay there he goes. Come back here. Can you make him go on your face. McNair you'll be you'll be back in a second okay. Sometimes when things are working we keep it increased. Guess don't really go. Oh well no no no we fly commercial here. You'RE GONNA stay with us a while even though you plug your show. Yeah Yeah okay sure. Okay like most of those big guys so you don't have to get back to the shootings. Good Yup no all right. We'll do this. We're going to say all month actually hear from Richard Pryor Linda Smith Monday night. I want to mention that he's going to be hosting Harvey Korman I'm going to come and sit right in that seat there when he does the model. Oh you're going to get a little spinach not well. That's all you all you have to look at Harvey and goes into he goes catatonic not well and he's going to be a with Bonnie Franklin. Tom Recent Baseball's Bob Ukraine Helen. Gurley Brown on Tuesday night we have the Icefield awkward saying the Best Carson Yen. We have people like Beverly Lee Sills. Who is right there Tony Randall? They're funny comedian. By the name of George Miller and from Cornell Dr. Carl Sagan is with his on Tuesdays League leader. Dick Kavak Tony. Newly Laura Call George Burns Marvin Hamilton and Donald J. Duck. Donald Duck will be on the show. There was a man named Donald. Oh Really J. Duck. I think he's with the Department of Interior's with the United States government and he's legitimate name is Donald Duck and you WanNa talk about going through life with problems. Yeah what a Nice Nice going to be going to a motel in your name. Come out and lock him out in writing that down speak it a harvey. You don't have much admire you and Harvey and they're replaying in that order incidentally not raw. What's up with you and Harvey Notch cracking me up? And they've been re running a lot of the composites of Carol show from around the country and those sketches hold up but you and Harvey have got something going between you. He doesn't seem to be able to break you up very often but you will. Have you look at him you eyeball oh him. Yeah and Harvey that the mouse starts to go the is dance the jaw trembles. He did the the shoulder start to go. Yeah it's a kind of started. We were in his dressing room. One time it's doing the show and he was Dressed in a chicken outfit and had the big feet had red stockings on pantyhose and he had a chicken body and chicken wings and this huge chicken in order to talk to me had to lift up the beach. You know listen. I was dressed as an Avon lady and Dan just sitting there and address can't emotion stockings and earrings and everything and he was telling me something a serious problem which he was involved in Khomeini's and you know I I don't know what he's walking up and down with these chickenfeed going. I feel you know and boy my life and I can see and I'm going. Well you know I I feel I suddenly realized is the chicken talking to a neighbor. This isn't right and I said you don't have. I'm really interested in this. But could we wait until later when you're not a chicken in an not an aimless so we went out to sketch which we never did which is falling downtime. And from that time on I think we kind of whenever we met each other's is kind of said you know these guys that are age ought to get a job for the audience understand sometimes why people get uncontrollable but I guess it's like laughing church or something you're not supposed to be professional ignite. I have been guilty on many occasions of doing nothing more than just getting the giggles coming out all over and not being able to stop. Yeah have you tried to break him up and sometimes I I I could just look at him and he would go but he would try and break me up and he would say something or do something and go and I wouldn't do anything and he'd go nuts and then he would laugh at him trying to break up me right right I sat one time for through a whole sketch for ten minutes with spinach in my teeth. Going like this and he never left and then I fell down. Yeah when you try it. It's tough but he There was one sketch where I was supposed to be a pilot coming onto the set and He opened the door and he said. Are you ready and I was. I had them bring in a toilet and I was sitting on the toilet when he said. Are you ready and off stage stage. And so he started laughing and he had. That was the dress show enough for the air show. I said I wanted to do something even funnier and he said Oh. No you won't give this time so I didn't do. Anything stood there. When he opened the door he went and he was so surprised standing there he wasn't even breaking waiting for the that doesn't happen? Ralf are makeup man was telling me says work for Tim Conway Back in Cleveland Right. I remember you hear you started as a television director. Right in. Cleveland couldn't direct really. I told myself as a director and a gentleman named Ernie Anderson who's now a big announcement does most of the AB Gosh See promos. And they'll never know never figure I sold him as talent and me as a director and he had never Vinh talent and I'd never directed so He had kind of a talk. Show on a movie thing and I never knew how to what they call time. So that when the program ended you actually had the whole movie in that hour and a half and the program always go up and we would never have the end of the movie and it wasn't until we showed citizen Kane. People began to get disturbed because they WANNA see growth but at the end and all very important to them and that's the first time I realize that they're really interested in the endings of movies So we would show the endings of the movies on Friday. Just yeah just the endings. What we have missed just takeo? Yeah that lasted a week. And then they decided that It'd be better if I wasn't a director. Is that what he's got into town with their new Well we had. The show is so bad that we couldn't get anybody to come on as a guest so I would guess too and Ernie would say you know. Here's a bullfighter. Here's a trumpet player players or whatever and I just leave the cameras on on on a bullfighter whatever discreet experience. Yeah sure was then. I mean that I started locally back in Omaha doings ashore the afternoon walk for locally locally because Roy and used to do an hour show L. three times a week with nothing so you start doing everything and actually. It didn't make any different time. Yeah tried to get guests on. We'd say like when Bob Feller was big with Cleveland Indians. We say Bob Feller was going to be the guest today. We'd never ask Bop. Just 'cause would hold an audience that way and then Bob would call and I wouldn't be on that piece of junk and we'd go the next break would say well. He called me. He's on his way traffic. He'll be here Then at the end of the show and say well. Here's Bob. We don't have time. Well maybe tomorrow. And they can't get away without the endings of the movies and the and that kind of stuff lasted about two weeks. And then I was back down writing promos again. Would you take your kids shot. And you gotta you gotTa say to the best of my knowledge about sick about running around yeah. I don't know how old they are. They're not They must be about sixteen eight eight rather there must be kind of a a handful when you go on a trip or vacation or what we take a little plane or You know it's One time I had Three kids playing. Well actually a two kits timmy. Patrick were playing little league. The shows that sense of humor that people have in little league. Because they're rough they really are. I just went to enjoy it for the kids and everything and they asked me to umpire one day. That's all that's the worst but my first boy got up to me. He got a hit. A second got Pat. He got a hit and they were short. That those games you know they go to scores usually average average route. One hundred seventy eighty three when you go to see one of those games. You don't get a seat. Just get a condominium son go on forever you so then nobody ever gets out and they don't have a strike. You just keep pitching to hit it. So you're there for days you know but anyway to my boys are now on second first so they were short so they let Jamie maybe bat now. He's only about five at the time. So Bang hits the ball that rolls of the pitcher now instead of the pitcher throwing the first to get him out. He decides to throw third to get timmy out now. Timmy's started sliding about where the shortstop withstand slid got up slid again slid again. Uh He had the slide down but it was a little early so by the time he got the third. I thought this is great. My three boys choice are going to be on base so the guy was such that have been already you saw this kid sliding sliding so. I figured well I'll tag when he comes over here so tag him. He was out by twenty yards yards. Timmy as he was walking he stood on the base. And I said say well you never saw so many people come on stand. Wait a minute Halloween. Oh yeah they're gonNA kill me made safe you know hey. The scores one hundred eighty five. We care three boys around base. The parents are the ones who take it serious. Oh Yeah and and can lead to fisticuffs and screaming eating. Yeah I forgot involved in that. No that's So they didn't play next year by the way I didn't ask you. Who is on your special when I should have? In order to Carol Burnett Syringes Mason Super And Don knotts and did a picture for Disney called the apple. Dumpling probably saw that for a lot of Academy Awards. And we're doing another one down in Atlanta alcohol. The price become the world championship boxer. You Don's my manager. It's a serious drama village. People you you know they think. YMCA BIG IT. Yup See Jack and Who else gets instead of having grown advances we had a little kid dancers eight to twelve sixteen in those tapping their heads? You know the last here especially when you dance you dance dance extremely well. You know what that wasn't it was the guy with a mask a man come on. It's really talking. We never we never revealed the fact that it was. Everybody thought it was really a rubber mask and that was a guy dancing head up. I only did the closure where I went. I went on and everybody thought it was me. I'm sitting here like a dummy. That's what Isis saying. You know I believe it can figure out of the country but yeah I actually believe things I looked at it and I said Yeah Conway Conway doesn't me too. Yeah and it was just you in the close ups gets right did anybody no. I didn't even know. Actually they didn't people who knew me said that they swore that was me I because it had this rubber masks wasn't credible. Yeah then you don't dance good at all. I'm taking it back. No no I don't dance at all. I have no sense of rhythm. That's six kids but I want to tell you that bad seriously filter. We're going to be my back so stay where you are moving along hair. Hi In my next guest I am. I'm a big Fan of his also starring in the new Neil Silence California suite and on the ninth of February motion-picture call Richard. Pryor live in concert is going to be opening in theaters all over the country which ought to be crazy because he is looking so I was going to mean for the theater. Apparently yeah apparently. They must when he was working in concert and he is a funny man. You Walk Richard. Pryor Argon Argon Rich. I'm fine thank you. Thanks for your life good yes. Everything's wonderful Johnny. This is great. It's really been doing any sniping thing for the new year or anything like that. Keep life interesting. Haven't been doing anything you know. You're talking about the earthquake in the happen. We Watch the game. Ah Yes I was I was. I was in bed watching the kids. My kids running there and they were really scared. And I don't know why I brought that up. Well I remember that in the big one big earthquake I live in a building on sunset and it was a fourteen story building and I lived in on the third floor but it was in the basement and and and it was early in the morning Oranje and I was I was in bed and I was naked and I was just laying there and windows start popping out and I said God this is it and I grabbed a Samurai sword and fifth of whiskey. We've went out in the street and everybody after the earthquake. Everybody's started getting very friendly with black people figure we knew gone. You don't mess with a cat with a Samurai sword in a bottle of whisky neighbor. They were going with a lot of people going. Oh Oh you know just really weird people's like the Valley village of the damned something they had. They are frightening though. Thanks yes people back Isaq Delvin. They think like in the movies really funny is hurts. I just saw your bombing your shoes. They're glomming Mushoo. Yeah I didn't like looking at close much. Use The gold. Yes gold fourteen CARAT FOURTEEN CARAT gold. Things going real good the no. I don't know anything to talk about. My mind left me when I worked out here. I walked off. My Mind's excuse me it happens to me all the time on this show. Nothing no went to the bathroom on. It's okay just put it on hold sitting in a great deal of penny attack helps just it does last night last night. At a moment of sheer panic starts whistling to my nose. Ramona Mona for no reason. Why just went by so doing just my mother's the only person when when you ask my mother's the only person worth calls me and says what have you been doing lately? I'm on every night you'll call me. I don't call every weaknesses. What have you been doing lately? Something I'm of the old television show. What is your mother? Feel about what you do. I mean this house you look at you. I think Paris and children. Sometimes they know you so well as a person and they have not nothing. Special program should their product. Your parents are an Tim's parents but they don't treat you like the general public sees. Yeah Richard Pryor Tim Conway when you go home. You don't get that do not at all if you look at your kids. Look at you and say hi dad or whatever my kids they'll go see somebody else. I remember when I was writing Red Skelton years ago I was wearing a local show. I didn't really wanNA know Johnny took. Well Hey the I told you I told you a lot more than you really wanted to anyway. Now that I'm now that I'm rolling. I was writing for Scalp and I had a little show on. KNX Tea Income Red Skelton. Kids run over to me that the shows you the thing was her dad and one of the biggest stars in the world. They'd see me on television. That's all that's Gregory. He told me one time he was walking with this in man came up and asked for his autograph and his children. So what did you want your autograph for. You Ain't nobody the whole attitude. My kids were in the car with me. Driving my kids were. They said I asked him. He'd been making obscene phone calls. 'CAUSE when you're young you call people go higher. Aren't say something to hang up and my kids confess that they did daughter said I call up somebody and we had a radio contest and I said what was well s dispersants at. WHO's the funniest guy in the world? You Win fifty thousand dollars and the guy said St Maarten. That's that's almost ran off to. I don't see when that light. Steve You gotta get him to get you something for Christmas part next week right and a nice vacation because you're going to be home. I'm going to do this. We're GONNA come right back so but that's a prompt. Remember your last time. Won't you talk about Your Dad. My Dad said he was a strong disciplinarian up. Oh my father would just say things that make you pee on yourself as tough. Yeah he can call him any here yes it was plain fear another your mother. My mother was my mother who knew she could tell him. Look at me. I'm going to tell you and I'd panic because my father had an approach about things you know. He just say things like he'd be reading the newspaper. GimMe piece of paper. He is reading a newspaper. He wouldn't go the trouble next door. The kids next door was really packed. Their father was mean demand would come out and the kids that they they did not hear him. Come in here and get home in three minutes. That was it. And that's all he would say. Go the kids we'd be playing basketball. Can't be going. What yes? My grandmother used. My grandma grandma used to give them trees with switches. You ever have to break them off yourself to get A. My grandma used to make me go get him. They give me something to be and it would be. It would be the longest walk in Rhode Road Hoping it would snow and get the switch in becoming home and it'd be killing the win right and it makes you start crying. You get in the House and my grandma she would just get mad and just would-be with anything like Oh bankcards hurt all on this big old hot water bottles. That's what they call them right not marred about this whole eight gallons of along this embarrassed woman yet but maybe they did that on a I love. Oh sure on below now how are you my discipline tipline very good. I I started out a spanking. I tried so many realize that they can look at us. Spanked me and I would feel awful so I try talking to him. You know and and my kids are real life stuff. If you don't mind I hope you you can put it out right. I mean my kids. One day my daughter rain just came into me and she was talking about. My grandmother had been took her for a ride. I was talking to a lot of approach for eight years old. She looked at me. Daddy I just wish they'd get off my back. That is known as a child. Please ecorse even on the you can understand. That's that's communicated you know what's on your mind right away. She's she's just think I think grandmothers racist everytime we go down the street street says honky distant and my mother's white right. Okay now what am I supposed to do. Okay so now what am I supposed to do. I said well go tell your your grandmother how you feel tell her the truth teller as is a price for telling the truth to Iran. That's the thing if she went in there and I saw her in the yard switch later the win. That's that's a direct parents can understand that kind of us so I talked to my kids. I don't like what you do and I don't think you respect but you. You still love it you still got my heart man they can do stuff to you sit in your lap and just off daddy and that's it off. Real finished guys are push always usually for a little girl. Aw Man it just so beautiful and this is sharp and smart and full of life and they make you happy. They say good things to tell you. Love can't help it cannabis that's beautiful you know. Usually when you're spending anger and they say that yeah no I. I thought I was doing with my parents. Did to me. And that messed me up man. I just going to mess them some of the same way I messed up and I don't want to do that little children okay. We'll take a break. I'll be right back with more eight year old dialogue. The what I mentioned earlier about your concert being filmed tim. Tim Ask me wasn't sure where there was a live performance Wisconsin they filmed your your concentrated you know filmed. I'm to a couple of nights at Long Beach when I was doing things for the court and things do y'all your through the court thing in Just about I only have have to four hundred more concerts and very very aw hopefully not filmed the concert. I wanted you know. Bill cosby our in California's sweet together. Right right and the movie I think's very funny and really got after. Bill is performance not for us but for what they thought it thought. It was a racial slur against us in the film and I heard interesting to talk about and that we ran the film. We only black people and we'd only ones doing slapstick capstick comedy and they the reviewers these white men furnace offensive for black people. They got a consciousness all all of a sudden. And it's not fair to people like Neil Simon her Ross Ray Star Bill Cosby or Gloria Gifford and Sheila Fraser. You know the people that were in the second seconded because we loved doing we're less than a slapstick and that's what it was supposed to be an and not that anybody cares but I wanted to mention case you do care that out I would love to. I work with people anytime because I think men man with a lot of principals we no way meant to do nothing but be funny and that's what I thought thought we were what you see. Four white people have done that same sketch. Nobody would have said anything but see people working. And they didn't like it and the indefensible reviewers you know they are they are really a Ah Nice people I know you know when I go out and have an interview or something and you know you're cutting their meat for and I the IPAD intelligence has a right to feel so you need them a little bit and they read a review. I should have done that. We've we've show you do life as a big long on the dollar is going to say this is all it is and they lied your well. I don't believe leave that well. You're you're entitled. No yes I don't where where we hear. We hear my mind just came back all right rich so anyway what kind of people to get your thoughts pretty pretty much more blackmore whiten. Well I would say this audience is mostly white here but not in my concerts. Usually when I I did one concert one time I walked. ONSTAGE was nothing but white people and audiences scared me to death I did I want. I usually go relying uses like like open. I look at the audience and say why people you know because it's hardly like to white people in audience so it was really funny but you walk out all white people that ain't funding. What are you going? Go Yeah look at you sure and usually win a lot. Usually when people come see me work they usually take notes Are Look like they're doing some kind of sociological research. What does that word mean? Is that really Do they talk. Like you've got a good mix of an audio. Yes I would I I would look. I think I have a good mix of an audience. Was that your question I used recently and I throw in black people here at home I do have a I have a mixed not many Chinese people real yeah. They're kind of hard to laugh though they really don't laugh we'll how would you like to go to China to go to China. I would feel I would just learn. I just think Chinese food is so great and I would love to go to China. Chinese people probably got some weird ideas about black people. You know any place usually were white. Americans go real. We say by Pierre Tails you know and things like that in Chinese we would probably be looking at you. No I just think China is billion. People you should be friendly would be anything the do we ought to you. I went to a Chinese restaurant. Wait a minute johnny. And the funnest thing I've ever heard my life. Why the Chinese waiter that stuttered I mean? The man was studying in Chinese. The the F. in France is trying to help him get mad but we go to China. I WanNa go with you. Conway Pat McCormick. Oh my God Harvey Korman. We all got together and they will probably end their diplomatic relationship with the United States. Next week for a week it would all be fun. Be An awful lot of fun fascinating people as you say you got a billion premiere. China's spits in the right guy has tried to ask the networks to edit out that part when they showed the film because he's talking to the magazine Magal phone please those parts causing the image not really really folksy atmosphere or A. Thank you break. We'll be right back. The doctor Lyndon Smith is with US tonight if you hadn't met him. He has his television shows. Not As long as yours special special. It's a matter of fact it's a minute and a half syndicated television messages throughout the country called House calls. He's been with us before. And he'll be with us again. Dr Lyndon Smith. Congratulations on your on on your master's when the other night and they they had a little review of a book by Lord Trimming called undertow between ended it said and I thought at this is the answer to all pediatricians. We should know this and have it on the wall and said Lord trimming him said The lady is never wrong now. I've found that my wife has has been telling me that for you but if you don't see it in print way usually don't get that message that when a woman brings her child with the opposite said he's sick. He's sick and you keep looking finding finding sicker. You make him sick or something because the kid the kid is sick and you can't examine say he's not sick because they'll go to another doctrine that's bad for business so you find or you find. He's got pin worms or you know there's there's something that's going on with that child because the mother knows best. It's ready when the baby has come from her. She's he's live with this kid for twenty four hours a day and the father brings a kid and said my wife says he's sick looks okay to me so And so he's not you know but we believe the woman I and really makes some sense and we've been to the times we're burned by the time we don't believe that woman so for Heaven Sake of a woman comes on and says something thing believer you just nod your head. It's not being henpecked is. Just it's God's truth. They've got some messages that God gave to them when they say something. The my wife says that the the bad behavior of our children is from the bad genes from the father side of the family. And it's often did you get rummage response and ask you a question if I've been reading. PA aided erupted opted. You know you didn't interrupt me at all I just doctor and you're on your on Western Airlines Lord Trimming Amazon. Get you to listen more. Oh yes I didn't. I wasn't aware that he said she wants to get full. Among other things Portland Oregon was just wiped out. We just still we were on the purported. We've got the ice up there that you wouldn't believe and my my wife again who Who believes in UH sometimes? She thinks that she said you know what's happening tonight. Because we were in thirty nine degrees huddled around the zero around this uh-huh package causing birdwell. And she said you know what we're doing we're talking we're usually watching TV or complaining or talking on the phone. We were talking to one another. And that's sort of bad weather forces people to get together. So what's What's new in medicine? WELL WE'VE GOT A. We've got flu going around that you wouldn't blue. Let's clues. Lewis is very bad. Why oh I can't think you're the flu dot? Well we can all yes yes just ahead of it a three and out now we have what they call a Russian type blue now. That's right yeah roping flu. And they're all the same basically it's high fever and a headache in your eyeballs hurt. You don't WanNa the all hurting and then the fever comes down and then there's this are kind of it goes on for seven days so it's a ten day illness. It's a very standard type. There's nothing nothing you can do. There is of course a lot of things. We're going to take you some of the best. The best present gin lemon juice and honey lemon on justin how we run out of that one nine. The kids came in were standing in barking by the bed one night and I had to give them. I didn't have the right ingredients. It was Bourbon and some antihistamine and some molasses was so bad they never complained again. So if you make the cough syrup tastes too good. They're in there every twenty minutes prompting and barking and stuff so you have to kind of watch that but we it does. It does work. If you know it's coming you have a question for Dr Richard about the children have ills in Rachel doctors in kids. That are brewers are more likely to get beaten by their mothers because they're more likely to be in bad behavior but we'll give him some cough syrup. These kids are all well. Jim Do you have anything wrong with your kids at home or I'm sorry. This is some research John Research on people that end up as they have the people like this or more likely been very tickly his little children. Were you ticklish. No no the only lately by those who are going to be more likely to be sensitive. It's just a little rule and you notice the stethoscope open. We can't feel this. Wait a minute trip with a handkerchief. Gives me on what you can do that. Famous magic trick that you do at parties but I guess not I. I just just blew his nose. That's it might my work with children who have Give teachers trouble in school or that. They're very sensitive. Goosey kind of kids and I'm invented them but I can't have this along with a lot of feathers teacher at sounds like Dave school has the as the kids all my down supine on the floor naked preferably and she lowers pool with a further on it and see which kids Sa- break I and those are the ones that are going to have. Yeah they're they seem to have more trouble but we are sensitive to hypersensitive children in trouble in school. So we'd like to isolate them or find out because is there some things we can do. But we're we're if we haven't gone too far past the flu I could go back to short because we there there are some people Framingham. Ah Trimming back up the. There's some people do respond. Oh the vitamin C.. And it might be worthwhile to take enough by. Does it take. Who Much of it you? Your body will respond. I had a woman told me that it didn't work. Sure Chow kept throwing it up as fast as she was getting down but it was she was doing something for the child. And that's it's important to that you feel that you're you can't just sit there and see your got sick but there. There is a point if your if your child has pneumonias blue. I and one hundred five where you're not gonNA sit around. Give it vitamin C.. You might but do it on the way to the doctor. Don't get sort of a limit to this health thing. I agree with many many of the health concepts. But there's a point when Richie tell at this kid was turning blue ways. See the I've had many black people come in with CIANCI. She the rash Yes of course just to point out a typical spot and they they will and Oh yes. We see a lot of that and I. I don't know I'm not. I didn't do very well the new about well. We're nothing that you you look when you when you hear kicking up again and You like when you were a child whose parents in the other room. Don't no no no we try to have them in the office there with us because we should save some time and ask questions in the His little happier if they often feel the parents of abandoned them and that sort of dirty trick. We try trying not to be tried to try to get through the exam without the child crying which is another kind of a trick when they get to a certain age maybe after their twelve thirteen or fourteen. It's amazing how much they'll let us look at things in the body but not their parents kind of hiding in the corner there. Let me take a look at this and that It's okay well. This was a different show. I'm sure you felt it a little bit. There were some awkward moments in it. Hope you'll tune in subscribe arrive tomorrow the Johnny Carson Show podcast. That are coming out weekly every Sunday night. We've got a new podcast for you. So we're going to keep going and we're gonNA keep interviewing some other famous famous people from the show I've got on my list Theresa Ganz L. who was wanted the mighty Carson ours players She played a lot of the sketches threes fender mine. And she's GonNa I sit down with me and we're GonNa talk about her experiences working as a side kick Johnny and all the sketches so tune in and keep listening to the Johnny Carson Show. PODCAST I'm your host will Schreiner and I will see you next time. Thanks again. Please subscribe bye bye.
Read_529 - QE, MMT, Inflation & Deflation - Part 1 [Lyn Alden]
"Quantitative easing or q. e. occurs when central banks such as the us federal reserve create new money to buy government bonds or other securities. Some people fear that it will cause high inflation or even hyperinflation and that is essentially money printing while others suggest that it has no impact on inflation because the money that is newly created or printed gets locked away in bank reserves rather than ever making it to main street a term for the broad public or that the printed money is otherwise offset by deflationary forces of debt in demographics. Based on history and math the inflationary side of the argument is eventually correct but with a lot of nuance along the way the best in bitcoin made audible. I am guy swan and this is bitcoin. Audible what is up guys. Welcome back to bitcoin audible. I'm guy swan the guy who has read more about bitcoin. Anybody else you know with finally dropping the amazing piece from lynn. Alden actually just the first two thirds of it because the second part is different enough that i think it deserves its own guys take on but And this one was brought to you. Thank you to everyone. Who voted on bitcoin audible dot com slash vote. I really appreciate you guys participating in this and making it very clear which one you want to listen to next and sorry. This one was just kind of a pretty long so it took me that. Get it released but linda's amazing job of breaking down and specifically steel manning the concepts of qe and ymt he and how they're said to work in theory than when they are or are not quote unquote money printing. And what their major failures are is a really great way for making sense of the macroeconomic situation and trying to wrap your head around some of these really vague and often purposely obscuring words and kind of getting down to the truth behind. What's happening with these before we get into it a big thanks to the bit box. Oh to harbor. Wallet from shift crypto For being my stable rock in these volatile times you know. it's not volatile. My bickering balance on the bit box actually went up during this price. Drop which is pretty cool. Get yours always directly from the manufacturer and use coupon code guy for five percent off and then how. How did i make my dad. Go up more than i do swan bitcoin. That's right the automatic plus smashed by savings plan. No distractions no. Bs no shit coins. No high fees said it once and it runs indefinitely and it will automatically even even automatically withdrawal to your bit box swan. Bitcoin dot com slash guy. Hits you ten dollars free and sat just for signing up. Thanks to both of them. Give them a shot out for me for making bitcoin possible and with that. Let's hit today's read and it's titled quantitative easing. Mnt and inflation and deflation a primer by lynn alden quantitative easing or q. e. occurs when central banks such as the us federal reserve create new money to buy government bonds or other securities. Some people fear that it will cause high inflation or even hyper inflation and that it is essentially money printing while others suggest that it has no impact on inflation because the money that is newly created or quote printed gets locked away in bank reserves rather than ever making it to main street a term for the broad public or the printed. money is otherwise offset by deflationary forces of debt and demographics. Based on history and math the inflationary side of the argument is eventually correct. But with a lot of nuance. Along the way i've received tons of e mails and comments in the past few months from people that want research on this topic to provide a model to think about the deflationary forces of dead and the inflationary forces of unprecedented fiscal and monetary response policies. One thing i've noticed is that the inflation deflation debate tends to concentrate into the extremes of crippling deflation hyper inflation. What about moderate or high inflation as a possible outcome in the years ahead and how about some actual numbers to see how we get two different possible outcomes rather than just claims of deflation forever or hyper inflation just around the corner. This article discusses quantitative easing. Qe modern monetary theory in nt and inflation and deflation and how they link together. The first part provides several examples of government financing to walk through differences in money flow in a q. e. or non qe environment to tease out. What the impacts are and show. How some of that. Qe money does make it to main street not just locked in reserves despite some claims to the contrary the second part dives into numbers about inflation to get an idea of how the magnitudes of various policies can affect the broader picture as it relates to inflation and deflation. It sounds wonky but having a framework for how this works in plain english can help investors determine for themselves how to allocate their wealth two different asset classes all asset prices are priced in dollars or other currency units but those units the denominator of measurement. Shift over time and we need a way to track it and predicted and in particular what events to look for part one four examples of government financing a government extracts taxes from the way it governs and then spins that money back into the economy in various ways with of course much debate among politicians and citizens for how much tax how much to spend and where to spend it. In addition a government of a country can also borrow more money from the public and redeploy elsewhere. This allows them to spend more than the amount of money they bring in via taxes. In a given year this is obviously a useful option during wars or other crises however most countries use debt as a permanent source of additional financing and thus their debt as a percentage of gdp keeps growing over time. Even when things are fine in other words they never pay down debt but rather keep rolling it into a larger and larger base of borrowing leverage. Is like a glass of wine. A little bit can be a good thing. Too much can be disastrous. for some examples of good leverage. A startup needs financing to develop their products and scale their business before they have significant cash flows a blue chip corporation generally uses some continuous low-cost debt as part their permanent capital structure to reduce their cost of capital compared to a debt free pure equity business. Model a responsible consumer might take out a low cost mortgage so that they can buy a house earlier than they would if they had stuck exclusively to cash and the house often appreciates over the long run and offsets rent expenditure in other words modest leverage for investment purposes fine. It lowers the cost of capital compared to pure equity for mature businesses. It allows for more rapid build out of new businesses when managed prudently. The risks are modest and the benefits are significant similarly if a government uses debt to win necessary war or fix crisis or provide a major infrastructure improvement that can be a good thing even when the government carries a bit of debt consistently it provides the public with a safe vehicle for savings and collateral for example treasury security market and basically improves the capital structure of government. In a certain way of thinking about it it can potentially pull forward some scientific breakthroughs or other benefits as well depending on where the money is spent however if an entity consistently spends more than it earns in racks out debt. It can lead to a lack of financial flexibility going forward or insolvency if debt becomes too large to service lenders may higher interest rates in exchange for higher repayment risk credit risk plus inflation expectations. And it can cause a death. Spiral where the debt becomes unserviceable and leads to default or currency devaluation sovereign governments. The print. their own currencies have more flexibility than any other type of borrower. The economics for monetary sovereigns work very differently compared to other entities such as households companies or countries that are not monetary sovereigns such as the euro-zone nations for monetary sovereigns nominal. Default is not the key risk as it pertains to leverage because they can always print enough to cover their obligations instead. Currency devaluation and inflation. Or the risks for monetary sovereigns. They can default softly by reducing the purchasing power of their debt. And so they tend not to default nominally. Here are four models of government borrowing which help us work our way up and see how q. e. and em-empty fit into the picture as it eventually pertains to and deflation model one domestic government borrowing. This is a basic model for government debt with me or any extra things. In addition to using tax revenue on spending the government also issues bonds which domestic individuals and institutions can choose to buy generally in exchange for interest payments and eventual return of capital when the bond matures domestic lenders give the government money and the government gives them an iou in the form of a sovereign bond or treasury security in the united states the government then deploys the combined tax revenue and net borrowing back into the economy in the form of public spending such as military activities public infrastructure a judicial system a social safety net national parks public services and so forth each country decides what services they want to be public or private or a bit of both some uses of capital. Have a high return on investment for the public while other uses of capital have four returns governments tend to roll these debt maturity's into the next round of borrowing rather than ever paying down debt which can work well as long as debt as a percentage of gdp is relatively stable in this model we quote. Oh the debt to ourselves in a national matter of speaking however debt is still real the person or institution that lent the money expects it back with interest and with its purchasing power intact now like everyone lent money to the government. Some people did and some people didn't and in various amounts so the flow of capital still needs to be respected but at least in terms of aggregate funding. It's from the nation's citizens and institutions when it comes to this government debt. There is no free lunch. The person or institution who lent the money to the government could have lent elsewhere or could have used that capital in another way people describe this as the crowding out effect. Meaning that if the government borrows too much from its people it competes with and replaces a lot of investment. They could otherwise do as some constructive examples the lenders could have instead spent it on. Charity could have started a business could have lent it to an existing business or could have put it in the bank and now the bank has more equity lending power to other businesses consumers and investors for some less constructive examples the would be lenders could have instead stashed the cash under their mattress or they could buy their own private island and make the world's largest zoo on it and never invite anyone else to see it. All those alternative uses of capital have various financial risks and rewards as personal satisfactions and then from a macro economic perspective. If done at a sufficient scale they can affect the magnitude type of growth in the country in other words a nation generally does better in terms of economic growth if people on average are putting capital in good businesses and charities rather than under their mattress or into an unusually large quantity of private petting zoos. The point is from a high level view on enhancing national productivity and real wealth and material well-being lending money to the government via treasury bonds is one particular use of capital and it has an opportunity cost because it comes at the price of other potential uses of that capital in private markets which could be more or less beneficial either for one's own self or from a macroeconomic perspective an example of a good government spending program. That would have been hard to replicate privately. Is the interstate highway system. Put in place under the eisenhower administration. This was useful enough that it's fairly easy to argue that it was worth borrowing and getting it built as quickly as possible to pay down over time rather than waiting to finance it purely with taxes because it was strongly beneficial to economic growth during and after completion and give a big boost to productivity readers. Probably don't need an example of wasteful government spending because everyone has their own list of what they agree or disagree with. Some are more obvious. While others are more debatable failed. Wars are historically among the most notable examples of spending that ends up being far from the peak of economic optimization but there are a variety of domestic spending examples as well. The main crux of this model is that win. The government borrows money from the public via treasury bonds. The money is extracted from some place within the domestic economy in redeployed elsewhere in the economy money itself is neither created nor destroyed in this model of government. Borrowing just moved around within the economy although we don't use any sort of gold standard anymore and helps to think of this example in gold terms for illustrative purposes. Because that's how it used to be and why this model exists in the first place. The government can't create gold a proxy for wealth or hard money it can just tax or borrow gold from the economy that it governs and then redeployed that gold back into the economy via various expenditures model to international government borrowing. The previous model was a closed system. In addition to the involuntary extraction of dollars from the domestic economy to spend elsewhere in the domestic economy taxes. The government extracts additional dollars voluntarily from the domestic economy selling treasury securities to those willing to buy and also spins those borrowed dollars elsewhere in the domestic economy. If the government borrows too much in that first model it can crowd out other uses of that capital and could run out of lenders and there is a real domestic opportunity cost of that capital. It's just one possible. Arrangement of domestic capital among the set of all possible options for how that capital could be ranged however a government can extend their reach by borrowing from international lenders. This let them spend money on the domestic economy without first extracting it from the domestic economy. Which is a powerful and ab- usable tool most developed countries. Don't do this much. Many emerging countries do regularly make use of this model because they don't have much domestic capital to start with so they borrow money from wealthy foreign sources to start building key infrastructure and other foundations for growth prudent emerging countries end up being very productive with that seed capital and eventually multiply it into positive net worth. Let's say via good infrastructure and a skilled workforce for starters which lets them start developing a trade surplus and building wealth while other countries end up stuck in a debt trap because they don't use that money very productively failed to create a trade surplus and yet still owe the debt to foreign sources. This is particularly risky for emerging markets. Because they usually borrow in external currencies such as dollars or euros that they can't print meaning that nominal default risk is significant. The united states is a typical because we are developed country that makes extensive use of international borrowing due to our historical and current role is the issuer of the primary global reserve currency. However we borrow from external lenders in our own currency that we control unlike emerging markets that often borrow in foreign currencies we run persistent trade deficits with the rest of the world meaning. We consume more than we produce as a nation and therefore send dollars out to the rest of the world. Each year foreigners then reinvest a sizeable percentage of those dollars to buy. Us treasury securities meaning. They loan those dollars back to the us government in exchange for interest and eventual repayment from a high level perspective in this existing framework foreigners. Send us more products and services than we send them and we make up the difference by sending them. I owe us promises to pay later. Whenever those iowa user do we roll them into later. Maturity's back in the first example there is a real opportunity cost to government borrowing because it draws from the same domestic pool of capital that could be used elsewhere. It rearranges where the nation's wealth is for better or worse. It doesn't add new money to the system. In the second example the foreign capital is added to the domestic system in exchange for foreign liabilities. Which is why it is powerful and abuse. -able this can feel great. Wallet happens because it seems like we're creating something out of nothing. Were able to build extra infrastructure or improve our military or promise our citizens extra retirement benefits compared to what they paid in or generally consume more than we produce because we are spending more on our domestic economy than we are extracting from our domestic economy due to borrowing that extra capital from with a promise to pay it back later or forever. Roll it into later. Maturity's this chart shows the us national debt held by foreign as a percentage of us gdp back in the nineteen seventies nineteen eighties. The amount of money that the united states government had borrowed from external sources was about five percent of us gdp. The us government. Borrowing model was still mostly a closed system just a bit extra foreign capital by the nineteen nineties and two thousands it increased to ten to fifteen percent of gdp by the twenty tens. He quickly increased to thirty to thirty five percent of gdp which is a large amount of foreign borrowing of course while this can last for decades and feel great. It can't last forever. Eventually we run out of foreign lenders. That are willing or able to lend to us and the more we do this. The more we dig ourselves into a negative net international investment position in. I p meaning that foreigners on more of our assets than we own a foreign assets a countries in ip is ideally expresses a percentage of gdp for proportionate comparison than in ip measures how much foreign assets stocks bonds and real estate are owned by people in a country minus how many domestic assets stocks bonds and real estate are owned by foreigners creditor nations have a positive in ip meaning they hold more foreign assets than foreigners own of their countries assets. Debtor nations have a negative in. I p meaning. They hold fewer foreign assets than foreigners own of their countries assets. For example as of the start of twenty twenty the united states collectively owns about twenty nine trillion dollars in foreign assets while foreigners own about forty trillion dollars in us assets including seven trillion dollars of our government debt resulting in an in i i p of a negative eleven trillion dollars with the country's gdp of a little under twenty two trillion dollars the in i expressed as a percentage of gdp is worse than negative fifty percent. The us bureau of economic analysis keeps track of the nfl ip here after world war one the united states became the world's largest creditor nation however decades of persistent trade deficits particularly in the nineteen seventies and eighties resulted in the united states shifting towards a debtor nation starting in nineteen eighty five by two thousand eight are in ip was negative ten percent of gdp in just the twelve years since then due to persistent trade deficits in foreigners financing our deficits we've rapidly deteriorated to an ip that is worse than negative fifty percent. All those i owe us have added up. This chart shows the in i. I p as of gdp for thirty two nations as of late twenty nineteen according to the imf. This table shows simply that among the thirty two of the most wealthy western nations. The united states has one of the worst. I think only two in this list appear to be worse off than the us on the net international investment position this second model of government borrowing also works with gold in place of dollars just like the verse model. Money is neither created nor destroyed in this model. Although it is brought from external economies into the domestic economy the government can take dollars or gold from one part of the domestic economy and redeploy those monies elsewhere into the domestic economy model one and they can borrow dollars or gold from these with the promise to pay back later and deploy those monies into the domestic economy as well model to my article on why trade deficits matter dives deeper into the problems of trade deficits and negative net international investment positions model three quantitative easing or qe. The previous two examples involved extracting existing money either from the domestic economy only or from the combined domestic and international economies and redeploying that money into the domestic economy. It has opportunity costs associated with it. They rearranged where money is rather than create new money and or end up owing foreign lenders. A lot of money in a third example. What if the government has basically run out of domestic and foreign lenders for treasury securities. They've already borrowed a ton of money and can keep rolling those bonds into new bonds. So what happens when they still want or need to borrow even more and yet not enough. Voluntary lenders are available to accumulate treasuries when government debt is equal to one hundred percent or even two hundred percent of the country's entire gdp and still growing e can be tough to find enough balance sheet space to put all those treasury securities and exchange for dollars there are always people willing to trade treasuries on a short term basis but finding large enough balance sheets to emulate them is another matter entirely the government could start a more deflationary cycle of spending less than boroughs and thus start paying back debt on a net basis or at least holding debt levels steady for a while they would likely have to reduce military expenditures make social programs and other public services less generous including breaking some existing promises and or increase taxes which would be politically unpopular among voters and that deflation de leveraging cycle would likely result in slow or negative economic growth for a while which often results in lower tax revenues. So it can be a vicious cycle. That's not a commonly chosen path. And it's very painful to unwind what appeared to be a free lunch for a while especially when borrowing foreign capital and it's even more politically unpalatable when one generation lived during the era of the borrowing. And the next generation lives during the era of payback or balance. That's a good recipe for intergenerational conflict instead the more commonly chosen pass when it runs out of lenders at attractive rates is that the government borrows newly printed money from its own central bank rather than borrow existing money from the public when the government runs out of real borrowers of existing capital. They make up new borrowers with new capital. In other words they initiate debt monetization country prince the money to buy the treasury securities that it issues in recent times they call it quantitative easing or qe. For short the united states japan united kingdom eurozone and others have done this. My favorite source for the definition of qe is the bank of england because they are so straightforward about it quote quantitative easing as a tool that central banks like us can use to inject money directly into the economy. Money is either physical like bank notes or digital like the money in your bank account quantitative easing involves us creating digital money. We then use it to buy things like government debt in the form of bonds. You may also hear it called q. E. or asset purchase. These are the same thing. The aim of. Qe is simple by creating this new money. We aim to boost spending and investment in the economy in this model. The central bank creates new digital dollars or digital pounds or digital euro digital yen depending on the country in question. But i'm sticking to the us as my default example and sends them to the government. The government sends the central bank eight treasury security indicating that they quote borrowed these new digital dollars from the central bank. Just like they would if they borrowed it from someone in the existing economy normally for legal reasons. They don't interface with each other directly. But instead go through the primary dealer bangs. The difference between this type of borrowing model three and the normal borrowing from the public were international sources models. One in two is that they borrowed from avoid of newly created dollars rather than extracting existing dollars from the economy. This then let's the government inject more money into the economy. Then they extracted from it and without extracting money from foreign lenders. It's brand new digital money. This third model of government financing ventures into alchemy an attempt to create something out of nothing or transform something without value into something with value and specifically this third model only works in fiat monetary system. Where money has no intrinsic value and can be created with the printing press or some keyboard inputs and can't work with the gold. Standard currency like the previous two models could for investors and citizens in general at should be a red flag. They would do well to pull out and start using what dr. Carl sagan once referred to as quote a baloney detection kit quote in the course of their draining scientist or equipped with a baloney detection. Kit the kit is brought out as a matter of course whenever new ideas offered for consideration if the new ideas survives examination by the tools in your kid we granite warm although tinted acceptance carl sagan the usage of the baloney detection. Kit doesn't presuppose that something is baloney it wonders if it might be an checks it by creating new dollars to fund the government q. e. allows the government to spend money on the domestic economy. They never extracted from the domestic economy or even from international lenders. The government still goes through the process of trading treasury securities four dollars but instead of trading treasury securities for existing dollars from the public they trade treasury securities for new dollars from the central bank created out of thin air for the central bank. The dollars are their liabilities and the treasury securities are there assets back during the two thousand in crisis when the federal reserve. Did this at a large scale. They promised that it would be temporary. That a few years after the crisis the federal reserve could sell its new treasury holdings to the public and erase the newly created dollars. It was framed as a temporary crisis. Intervention rather the new policy of permanent debt monetization a decade later in two thousand and eighteen and nineteen. It was tried and failed to actually erase these dollars through quantitative tightening and then they started buying more treasuries even before the covid nineteen pandemic in a two thousand thirteen article. The saint louis fed featured arguments. The qe was not debt monetization because the fed balance sheet would return to normal. Here was their conclusion quote. So is the fed monetary debt using money creation as a permanent source of financing for government. Spending the answer is no according to the feds stated intent in november twenty. Th speech saint. Louis fed president james bullard said therefo- nc has often stated its intervention to return the fed balance sheet to normal pre-crisis levels over time once that occurs the treasury will be left with just as much debt held by the public as before. The fed took any of these actions. When that happens it will be clear that the fed has not been using money creation as a permanent source for financing government spending. None of that happened a decade later. The feds holding of treasury securities and other assets both in absolute terms and as a percentage of gdp are far higher now than they were then and are rising so it became clear that it was and is debt monetization. the federal reserve's total balance sheet and specifically the treasury security holdings keep rising both in absolute terms and as a percentage of gdp. It's now more. Broadly understood that this void of new dollars will never be paid back and put back out of existence but instead will be rolled into new. Maturity's these dollar injections into the economy came out of thin air and are permanent additions to the system. Carl sagan's baloney detection. Kit is already unfortunately detecting some bologna. The temporary nature of the intervention proved to be incorrect. it was indeed a permanent decade. Long and growing source of financing government spending via debt monetization. The next question from the kit is whether permanent debt monetization is a problem from a legal standpoint. the treasury does not borrow directly from the federal reserve instead they go through intermediaries the federal reserve works with large private banks primary dealers who by the treasury securities from the treasury at auction and then the federal reserve buys the treasury securities from those large private bangs or elsewhere on the secondary market. The important point is where those treasury securities ultimately end up which in this case is on the federal reserve balance sheet bought with newly created digital dollars when the federal reserve finance government deficits via e the primary dealer banks essentially become pass through entities. Some analysts suggest that. Qe isn't really printing. Money is just a matter of creating bank reserves that get locked in a box of reserves and never put into the economy the q. e-money never really gets to main street in their view in other words and if it doesn't get to main street it can't cause price inflation that critics of q. E. fear although there is some truth to it. The problem with that analysis that proponents of that view are only looking at one side of the ledger rather than both sides of the ledger. The other side of the ledger is that the government was able to spend money on the domestic economy via the fiscal spending side that it never extracted from any existing base of money it instead extracted that funding from a newly created pile of dollars from the fed and those treasury securities are locked away on the federal reserve balance sheet from which it drew the new dollars from the treasury. Department is the mechanism for the federal reserve's q. E. get to the public. Things like medicare social security military spending crisis stimulus checks and so forth with likely have to be reduced if the treasury was limited to only borrowing from real lenders rather than borrowing from newly created pools of dollars from the federal reserve so a portion of. Qe money does make it to main street. The portion that goes to buying treasury securities albeit in an indirect way based on government fiscal decisions in other words the government and central bank working together and with primary dealers simply created new money from avoid and spent it and then put treasury securities back into that void for record keeping. It's not the void that matters. What matters is where the dollars were spent in the real economy if that q. E. had not been performed then the same amount of government spending would have extracted doctors from the economy or else the government spending would have needed to be reduced extract. The dollars due to saturating the lender base however because this void of new dollars was created instead the government spending was able to happen without extracting it from the existing system so use part of q. E. does affect main street either by maintaining existing promises like the solvency of medicare or by being able to send everyone twelve hundred dollar checks and extra unemployment benefits during a crisis without having borrowed those dollars from any real lenders. It makes it to main street in the sense that main street in aggregate continues to receive more government spending than the money they paid in with taxes and even if there aren't enough real lenders balance sheets willing to accumulate treasuries at current treasury rates. However it doesn't make it to everyone equally so some people who receive more government services. Get a greater share than people who do not receive as many government services. An example of running out of real borrowers so before we get into the example in her breakdown of what happened in september twenty nineteen in the repo markets. Let's go ahead and take a break at our sponsor and we will jump back on the section man net prices volatile from sixty thousand dollars to twenty nine thousand dollars in back right where we are today like thirty nine. Forty thousand almost like if you've been trading on leverage and trying to time the market. You probably got clobbered had horrible week but if you're dollar cost averaging and buying regularly with swan bitcoin you'd have landed yourself quite a great opportunity. This is why. I was telling people even before they were sponsoring. Bitcoin inaudible swan. Bitcoin is the stress free no hassle way to buy and save bitcoin. They low time preference long term position. That makes these drops a gift rather than a burden and it runs without any maintenance or worry and even withdrawals automatically to your own keys swan. Bitcoin dot com slash. Guy will get you ten dollars in free sats just for signing up. And if you don't like free sats we can't be friends. And i'm just that's just how it is ongoing. An example of running out of rio borrowers the september two thousand and nineteen repo rate. Spike was a tangible example of the difference between borrowing from real lenders and creating dollars to fund borrowing when real lenders are unavailable the repo rate is the overnight lending rate between banks in exchange for safe collateral treasury securities back in january twenty twenty before any impacts from covid nineteen. I wrote an article called the curious case of qe that outlined the events that led up to the spike in that key rate in two thousand and nineteen. The us treasury was running unusually large fiscal deficits of over one trillion dollars. Annualized meaning government spending vastly exceeded government revenue and so the supply of new treasuries was increasing at a rapid rate however foreigners had not been buying almost any treasuries since late two thousand and fourteen model to stopped working so this extra net borrowing had to be extracted almost entirely from the us economy model one for several years that worked especially because large us banks had so much extra cash from which to buy treasury securities with as well as hedge funds mutual funds pensions and other balance sheets and in early mid two thousand nineteen foreigners briefly started buying treasuries for several months again as well which also helped for a while but by september two thousand and nineteen foreigners stopped buying treasuries again and became net sellers of them instead at the same time most domestic lenders weren't able to buy more treasuries either corporations weren't buying pensions weren't buying insurance companies weren't buying traders and mutual funds. Were only buying a little bit model. One of domestic government financing started to run out of lenders there were only two real buyers left to fund a one trillion dollar annualized rate of net neutrality issuance. One primary dealer banks and to hedge funds primary dealer banks by the treasury securities directly from auction. But we're finding themselves unable to sell enough of them to secondary buyers treasury securities. Were rapidly accumulating on their own balance sheets which schilling we have so much room. They were drawing down. Cash levels and accumulating treasuries for years the second buyer still remaining was leveraged hedge funds running risk parody portfolios or other strategies. They could buy both stocks and treasuries with leverage as long as they had plenty of access to the repo market for low-cost borrowing itself is supported by primary dealer banks well in september two thousand and nineteen primary dealer banks hit liquidity bedrock treasury holdings at large. Us banks had climbed up to a record. Twenty one percent of assets red line in the chart below and their cash levels went down to just seven percent of assets the blue line below which was roughly a post two thousand and eight regulatory lower limits for liquidity and leverage. So they couldn't keep drawing down cash to buy treasury securities or lind more in the repo market to hedge funds to keep buying treasury securities. Either the result was that there was an acute shortage of dollars in the us financial system compared to the sheer scale of ongoing us treasury issuance. That needed to be bought. The repo rate overnight lending rate with collateral between financial institutions suddenly spiked extraordinarily high the. Us government literally ran out of cash dollar lenders for their treasury securities. Both and foreign many people blamed hedge funds but that was only the proximate cause at best in reality. The root cause was that the. Us government ran out of blenders foreigners. Pensions insurance companies retail investors and finally large banks and hedge funds simply weren't buying enough treasuries at that point compared to how many treasuries the government was issuing at over one trillion dollars. Annualized they had no excess dollars from which to lind to the us government at those rates. The federal reserve seemed to have been taken a bit by surprise by the total lack of liquidity in the system because banks still had some official excess reserves however banks need to meet a myriad of liquidity and leverage regulations so the raw chart of cash as a percentage of assets shows the clearest view in my opinion and not all quote excess reserves are truly excess when it comes to meeting all liquidity provision there. Were two possible outcomes of this. In one alternative world the repo rate would have remained very elevated and repo borrowers like hedge funds. Basically would have had to stop buying treasuries and even start outright selling them. You can't borrow a seven percent repo rate to hold two percent. Yielding treasuries on a sustained basis the interest rates on treasury securities would have had to rise considerably to attract a totally new pool of buyers such as foreign pension funds and even that would probably been insufficient with interest rates much higher that would have put downward pressure on equity prices and other risk assets and would have put immense pressure on the us government budget due to higher interest expense and lower capital gains tax revenue treasury. Solvency would have been around problem and spending on some combination of medicare social security. The military or other things may have needed to be quickly reduced to avoid defaulting on treasuries they continuously roll over into new treasuries in the real world since the us is a monetary sovereign the federal reserve stepped in with newly printed dollars out of thin air in started buying treasury securities due to lack of anymore real buyers at those low rates for the first two weeks starting the day after the repo spike the fed lint newly created dollars to other institutions to buy treasuries with basically nationalizing the repo market to reduce the interest rates but when that quickly proved insufficient the federal reserve began outright buying treasury bills with newly created dollars in other words the federal reserve allowed the us government to keep funding its domestic spending plans at current interest rates without finding new real lenders for the rising deficits. They just created new dollars to buy treasury bills and fill the difference between what the government wanted and needed to borrow and the dollars. That real lenders were able to lend this chart shows the sudden accumulation of treasury's by the federal reserve during that time in green after five years of not buying any and even trying to reduce their holdings alongside the updated cash and treasury security holdings of large us banks as a percentage of their total assets in blue and red respectively when banks ran out of cash to buy more treasuries the federal reserve printed up some digital cash and took their place as the primary accumulator of treasuries months before the economic crisis from covid nineteen. The federal reserve began accumulating treasuries at basically the same rate they were issued meaning. It was monetize. Virtually all net new government debt. That was when the green line in the chart above started to go diagonally upward in late two thousand and nineteen after the repo spike then in march twenty twenty it went vertically upward as the covid nineteen crisis hit in full force and again for legal reasons the federal reserve. Bison accumulates the treasury's from the banks or elsewhere on the secondary market rather than buying them directly from the treasury. One reason that people mistakenly don't think qe gets to main street is because a lot of qe ijaz goes to maintain existing government spending to main street. The government is spending more on the domestic economy mainly on medicare social security in the military then they are extracting from the economy so it's not like when qe occurs everyone gets new checks. They just get to keep getting social. Security medicare military defense and the government services that they are already receiving which is more than the tax they paid in as a nation and then in crisis situations they might also get new checks like we just saw with the twelve hundred dollars out to most adults in the country and the big boost to unemployment benefits so yes. A portion of qe money creation does get to main street. The portion that is used to buy treasuries but it's primarily embedded in funding existing programs and maintaining deficit spending to fund those programs at low rates. So it doesn't feel like he gets to main street and the magnitude is not very large compared to what main street already has. We can imagine other hypothetical scenarios for the future where qe money can make it to main street obviously on top of existing entitlement structures. If they choose to do so the twelve hundred dollar checks and extra unemployment benefits that people received in the past couple of months were an example of that imagine for example the treasury authorized by congress and the president decides to spend a trillion dollars to send every american. Three thousand dollars in the next round does a stimulus. The treasury would issue treasury bonds to pay for it primarily dealer banks by them at auction and the federal reserve would create new digital dollars to buy them from the primary dealer banks and accumulate them on their central bank balance sheet. If we follow the flow from beginning to end new dollars were created the federal reserve sent to primary dealer banks sent to the treasury department and sent to the public which got deposited in their accounts via direct deposit or mailed checks which directly increases broad into money supply. The treasury security moves the other direction from the treasury department to the banks and then ultimately to the federal reserve balance sheet. This is an example of qe truly printing money and getting that money to the public similar capital flow models apply for corporate thongs mortgage backed securities or other securities. They wind up on the central bank. Balance sheet bought with newly created dollars in effectively means that money was created from thin air to provide capital funding for company or the mortgage market rather than extracted from elsewhere in the economy. New money entered the system. This set of funding doesn't really reach main street. Like it does when q we is used to fund treasury securities but it does into the financial system as it relates to asset prices. So quote does qe money make it to main street is not the main question because it depends specifically on what securities are bought with qe when qe is used to buy mortgage backed securities corporate bonds stocks or other things it mainly goes to financial markets rather than main street when qe is used to buy treasuries in a normal sense. It makes it to main street in the form of supporting existing government spending much of it on social security medicare military that isn't fully supported by taxation or real linders if qe is to buy treasuries for crisis level helicopter money checks in the mail. Direct deposits on employment benefits negative payroll taxes or whatever. The case may be then it gets to main street more obviously as it relates to q. In general once you venture into the realm of creating something from nothing and stewart reader should be using the baloney detection kit. There of course must be a cost somewhere. The short answer is that because our other currency units are being created at an accelerated rate but the available pool of products and services is not necessarily expanding at an accelerated rate price. Inflation can follow. Meaning that the purchasing power of each dollar declines over time however where the price inflation shows up the magnitude in which it shows up and how long it takes to show up is variable and goes against multiple deflationary forces as discussed later in this article model for modern monetary theory or in mt modern monetary theory mnt which itself is based on an older macroeconomic model known as charters them takes q. E. a step further major countries. Don't currently use this fourth model directly. But they are discussing it more and more. They already use elements from it via model three. Qe so it's important for investors to understand it in the previously described third model of q e. Even though dollars are being created out of thin air the process still goes through the motions of the us government sending treasury securities to federal reserve through an intermediary bank and the federal reserve sending dollars to the us government again through an intermediary bank. They pretend that this is alone. Something that could be paid back when in practice. It tends to get rolled into later. Maturity's forever these seemingly arbitrary ways of record keeping service mild checks and balances because they need coordination between the government the central bank and private bank intermediaries in order to create currency to fund government spending. This adds a layer of at least partial transparency to the process and multiple institutions. Need to participate. Modern monetary theory says. Wait a second. The first two models are built on an antiquated system. That involved hard money like gold and the third model still goes through those same antiquated motions but we exist in a fiat currency system. The government prints money and writes whatever numbers at once on the paper. It doesn't even need to borrow it from the economy or even from the federal reserve for that matter before it spins it as it would have to do in something like a gold. Based currency system the only limitation apart from the current legal structure is inflation. This is not unlike. Qe in practice accepted. Some of the checks and balances are removed in our system. The treasury can tax and borrow and spend while the federal reserve can lind but not spend but if the to work closely together they can approximate an in the n. t. like system in a pure in mt economic model. The government doesn't even need to tax or borrow to spend it can just create and spend money first and then take some taxes back out to keep the money supply from growing quickly because taxes created demand for that money by saying the only thing you can pay taxes with is that government issued money. The government could decide to also borrow some money simply to provide a forum of nominally. Risk-free collateral treasuries for investors to own. But in this model they don't have to. If the amount of money put into the economy becomes too great. Compared to the nation's productive resources inflation will happen because more and more money would be chasing limited goods and services at that point or ideally before that point the mnt economists suggests that taxes can be increased and or government spending can be decreased to take money out of the system which would put downward pressure on inflation at the current time within the first three models of operation the federal reserve and other central banks aim to keep inflation and the money system in check through raising or reducing interest rates in an mnt model however the government instead aims to keep inflation in check by managing. Its spending and taxation injections and of dollars so that the money supply doesn't grow faster than productive resources the n. t. approach further points out that usually the economy is not operating at its maximum capacity and in recessions operates even further away from its maximum capacity in other words. Let's say steel mills usually operate at ninety percent capacity and in given recession their capacity dips down to fifty percent of capacity as demand decreases significantly while the existing supply of steel factories and trained steelworkers is unchanged well. Mnt says the government can go ahead and do a big infrastructure stimulus in print money to buy a bunch of steel at that point and it won't cause inflation because there is plenty of capacity to produce that steal it just offsets deflation. It would only calls inflation if the steel mill was already running near one hundred percent capacity and the government was trying to print money to buy more steel anyway. Steel was the example here but it applies to everything healthcare education materials energy labor etc. The mnt model suggests that whenever the country is not operating near full capacity full employment and high utilization of existing resources. Then the government can go ahead and print money to spend on those areas then if the country does get near full capacity of labor and resources and all this new money starts causing price inflation of these goods the government can raise taxes and or curtail spending to take some of that money back out of the system it needs to be more segregated than that. Because it's possible for example to run out of extra engineers or extra copper in start getting inflation in their prices but still have plenty of extra. Nurses are extra steel without much inflation. There it's also worth pointing out that. Mnt can be used in either fiscally left leaning or fiscally right leaning political environment a left leaning system would use it more on the spending side getting government more involved in spending decisions a right leaning system would use it more on the revenue side and perform big tax cuts when it's clear that the economy is operating far from capacity and inflation is not a near-term concern warren moser one of the initial proponents of iniquity has called for full payroll tax holidays for both. The employee and employer side during recessions were periods of slow growth which would be a massive tax cut especially for the middle class and for employers of all types. Many critics of mnt just describe it as reckless money printing but in order to truly critique theory in needs to be well understood and explained in its best form and then debated as to why that best form is wrong or questionable to intentionally weaken an argument made by an opponent and then criticized that weakened argument is a logical fallacy called a straw man the opposite of that is to steal man an argument which means to present the most compelling possible version of your opponent's viewpoint and then explain why you disagree with it even in its best form. Only then does a debate. Really get to the real bedrock of truth and understanding so in this framework. Mnt is not just about money. Printing but about managing the supply of fiat money in the economy via taxes and spending relative to the productive capacity of that economy labor and resources to ensure that there is not too much money chasing limited labor and resources and there is not extra labor or resources being underutilized due to lack of spending or high taxes someone that is applying their baloney detection kit to in antiquing correctly point out fiat currency is ultimately a confidence game. It only works if people are willing to hold onto it and expected to have most of its value next year and the year thereafter. the model. That t. economists use is mathematically correct in theory within a fiat system but relies heavily on a politicians and other fiscal authorities actually increasing taxes or cutting spending if inflation picks up and be that with all the illusions of fiat money removed and showing what it really is. People will still treat it as a store of value rather than starting to question. It's worth if the government can just print as much of it as it wants without borrowing anything. That's my main concern with em-empty. He pushes the system. Closer to the inflationary boundary which does have advantages but inflation tends to operate with a lag and can be hard to correct once it starts the idea that congress and a sitting president will raise taxes or cut spending in order to tame rising inflation or worse stagflation comes off is unrealistic and inflation remains unaddressed. With more and more spending it can quickly turn into hyper inflation and lead to a disorderly currency reset the q. E. model can create a synthetic version of em-empty if government and federal reserve work closely together. Which is what is happening now. My previous example of the treasury sending out helicopter checks to people that are ultimately paid for by issuing treasuries at the federal reserve buys with newly created dollars would primarily dealer. Banks intermediaries is basically. Mnt in practice in other words what people think of as em-empty can essentially be done in the current legal framework however although q. e. creates new dollars out of thin air. The process still goes through the motions of pretending to respectfully treat money in the same way it was treated in the first two models meaning something that has to be borrowed from somewhere before spent and balanced by an asset on the other side a treasury security to get locked away on a central bank balance sheet in place of newly created dollars forever to be rolled to the next one when it matures for a while those motions along with statements by officials provided many investors reasons to believe that maybe newly created dollars would be paid back maybe. The federal reserve will be able to reduce their balance sheet and so forth. Those beliefs proved to be unrealistic but the realization that it was debt monetization. He's only coming years later for many people. The temporary nature of it proved permanent. When quantitative tightening failed in two thousand and nineteen immune t on the other hand drops a lot of those pretenses of qe and just treats money as something that can be printed whenever unused economic capacity exists. It's not that fundamentally different from qe just cuts to the heart of it and removes some of the steps. Although it's not a necessary component of the model many mnt proponents are also in favour of perpetually low interest rates. The criticism against that especially from the australian economics perspective is that it makes the cost of money too cheap and leads to high percentages of mala investment when interest rates are higher borrowers and lenders have an incentive to save money have incentive to be more selective with their financing and only put it into their most productive ideas and have an incentive to maintain low debt levels the hurdle rate for investment is pretty high however in a zero percent interest rate environment. There's little incentive to save and there's a lot of incentive to borrow as much as you can to invest in plenty of good ideas mediocre ideas and even bad ideas with a low hurdle rate and to hold a lot of low cost and debt in general to your business real estate or other assets to maximize your return on equity and return on invested capital as we venture into the next business cycle where central bank balance sheets around the world continue to ramp up to fund government on a scale that has not occurred since world war two. It may start to break some of the allusions that the public holds about money especially as we remain in an environment where bank accounts in treasuries pay interest rates that are below the federal reserve stated goal of two percent annual price inflation. This sort of currency confidence breaks all the time in emerging and frontier markets. I have family and friends in egypt. For example that have learned for years not to hold egyptian pounds for more than a short period of time before spending them on a harder asset or putting them in an extremely high yielding bond. A lot them use accelerated home-buying agreements where they channel seven years of payments into a new condo construction that they own and move into upon completion but couldn't happen in major economies like the united states in the nineteen seventies where we go back to not viewing the currency is a safe place to store wealth. The second part below discusses inflation and deflation port to the inflation. Deflation debate all right. We're actually going to stop here today. And i'm going to release almost done with the section actually in the recording. But not quite and i wanted to be able to get into guys take. So we're going to briefly go over like i've freely love this piece lynn. Alden has some amazing breakdowns of this stuff. And i also like her perspective on or positioning on rather than oversimplifying. Let's talk about the actual idea. Immune t and qe and what the best case scenario of it is and then explain why it doesn't work or why it's terrible idea and really in the context of and then t is like agreed agreed to main points are completely destroys. The facade of appearing to have real money is it immediately becomes it it tears away the curtains of fiat and makes it so blatantly. Obvious this is entirely a confidence game. And what's funny. Is i think it would lend to the likelihood or essentially the seasonal push and pull of the value swings it would create enormous volatility in the actual currency in the the very system designed to make it stable would make it incredibly volatile because as soon as it appeared that there was going to be any restraint that the the government which i think. That's the silliest thing of all is the government is going to cut medicare or social security or spending or you stop its military endeavors to Curtail inflation. there's absolutely no reason to think that that would ever be politically palatable. It's like that's that is the nature of politics is. When is that ever happened. When has there really been any kind of net cut in government spending that i think on its face is really the most unrealistic thing about it. Even though there are so many other elements to the The problems involved with mnt but then the other one is it because that facade has fallen away that this is real money this being borrowed and then spent or being extracted from the economy and then reallocated. According to the government's wishes of decide society should be. Is that when it appeared that they were going to move for a deflationary mode. Did they were going to raise taxes and cut spending the tendency to immediately shift from wanting to dump your current as fast as possible to wanting to hoard it will will move very quickly and then exactly in the reverse. Is that when it was very when it's clear that the government is going to go for inflation and is going to push for excess. Spending and jumping new supply onto the market is that it was result in a very fast dumping of the currency like the the facade of any stability in the value of the money would be just stripped away. I think you'd have incredible volatility just generally and then the fact that. I don't think you'd ever actually see a reasonable curtailing spending that it was mostly just be for show and it would look like they were trying to make it look like they were cutting spending but then they actually weren't to make sure that they've got all of their constituents in all of their cronies and everybody who's getting subsidies and such happy and everybody just to dump it onto the next administration the fact that there would never be any real political will to increase taxes or to cut spending. I think would just make it. You would really just see the very fast unfolding of the complete loss. In the confidence of the currency it would simply stop being a store of value and it would just be increasingly. Volatile and the velocity of money would be incredibly high. But there's something that i think it's far more inherently absurd about the idea of in an t and the idea of qe and the very nature of manipulating interest rates in order to curtail or expand the economy. When the government thinks were some arbitrary metric metric makes. It looks like there's extra resources vs on capitalized. resources is that it's price controls. It's attempt that that is the very function of the price in the economy. Going back to the example of not having full productive capacity if capacity drops from ninety percent to fifty percent for some good or service. Or whatever it is you know what supposed to adjust for that to figure out where it is that resources need to be reallocated from. They need to go to the price. The price of those goods and services is exactly how we get the information for finding out where things have been misallocated. It is literally destroying the very mechanism that he needed to have any reliable information about where value is being creative destroyed where the misallocation of resources is actually present in the economy. It is the pretense of knowledge problem. Is everything about the use of knowledge in society. It is the pricing problem. And is the reason the price emerges in the market to begin with we cannot know where capacity is failing or where that value actually still remains. Imagine if this is actually a real shift in the economy imagine if this is because there is an alternative. That is better than steel. In this case a lot of what was taking up the steel is now being used by aluminum. And now they subsidise steel to correct for the prices and now we don't know that we should be allocating the product the excuse me productive capacity and the manufacturing floor the resources and the infrastructure to aluminum instead. What what how the hell is their committee gonna know what geniuses are they going to get who know every single supply and every single productive capacity and can aggregate all of this information all of which is fundamentally unknowable. Anyway because it is time specific and it is specific to the individuals and the values that they are trying to project into the economy which are only meaningful if the amount of value they put on their monetary transactions mean something if they actually are able to have influence on adjusting the prices of the goods and services that they are willing to pay for its flatly idiotic to think that you can get a council of people or a group of bureaucrats politicians or expert economist or whatever arrogant idiots. They're gonna cram into a room to look at a whole bunch of charts to try to figure out what this data actually is. You know what they need to determine it. They need to look at the price. You know what they are doing to fix it. Obliterating the usefulness of the price like i've said uses example a lot about the plane The price is like an timid. Her it's telling us each and every one of us in our current situations our current trade offs in the current value of the money and the resources that we have available to us whether or not we should pull up or push down on a plane that whether or not we should go higher or should go lower because we want to be flying level imbalance with the rest of the world so that we all don't die and what they're trying to say is that essentially an mnt and the attempt to create a council or fluctuate in just for where the where the capacity is low or too high. And we're going to. We're gonna make all these adjustments is to say that we're going to predict where the altimeter is going to go what it's going to indicate to us and then we're gonna break the altimeter and make it go where we wanted to go in order to correct for what we predict its future will actually be telling us and what they actually need. In order to make sense of. All of this information is a market. They need the tinder to have any idea what to decide and how to shift what the plane is doing. It's so hard to explain. You know actually. And here's here. I think this is. This is a profoundly accurate example. It is like taking a person in a perfectly healthy person into the hospital. Removing both of their kidneys. And then putting them on a giant dialysis machine and thinking that your dialysis machine is going to work better than your actual healthy kidneys. And now we're gonna walk around our lives carrying this giant dialysis machine around with us. And we're going to fuel this thing we're going to give it energy and these will be the bureaucrats who are fixing our problems and correcting and balancing the economy for us. When all we really needed to do was have you not take our kidneys out. That is the analogy. That is accurate. That's the stupidity of of this sort of a system in my opinion and at the end of the day all three of the models. Or excuse me. All four of the models are essentially a representation of the government taking resources from the mechanisms. That naturally tell us useful information about prices about trade offs decisions and values that we have is individuals the power that we have to actually influence the market into basically remove those things. He's to remove our influence on the market to whatever degree that they are allocating resources instead of our honest Legitimate cost costly skin in the game. Decisions a person who saves money a person who has earned money who has had to trade with. Somebody has skin in the game decisions. They do not do so lightly therefore more likely to actually understand and feel to know the value of that money because they worked for it and all the same human errors all the mistakes all the flaws are still there but they are connected to skin in the game. they're connected to the fact that we are responsible for our own. Well beings that when we receive assistance or when we help each other it's not done cheaply or in an entitled way it is done honestly you puts the proper dynamics the proper risks and reward for the citizens he puts the responsibility and the accountability in our hands and therefore it does not disconnect the value of the money from the decisions used to allocate that money that is why the economy actually works and inherently the political system. The government reallocation of this value does not come with any of those. There is no accountability or at least incredibly low accountability. Probably less as you go up the ladder. The larger the government institution the less accountability the more local and smaller the more accountability. They obviously don't have any real skin in the game because it's not their money. They've taxed it. They've taken it from people if their government program fails a welding. It's just that we didn't have enough money. And how dare those stupid citizens be greedy and steal the money from the government and then of course they get their own reward. They get to set their own rewards so if they have two hundred times the healthcare plan is everybody else. They have a hundred times retirement plan. That's important we're just born people. We just must have so much better than the average citizen because the average citizen is simply below us. it's a very subtle but persistent dynamic because causes problems in every single thing these institutions. Do and the closer you get to just enabling them to print money the further and further away from any sense of responsibility any sense of austerity any sense of restraint of any kind that decisions. Those institutions are and. I think that's why we have seen the progression of just the united states. We've gone from model. One to increasingly using more and more model to to increasingly using more and more model three. And now we're getting right into model for and did anyone of them really put any breaks on the system or did it just slow it down from getting worse and worse and seeing the lack of skin in the game in the lack of responsibility and the political push to get something for to get something from nothing grow so strong that there was never any way to actually rain. It in sounds like the ladder to me. What it seems like seems like a fundamental imbalance that there is no real solution for and just like if you removed. If you remove a healthy person's kidneys and put them on. A dialysis machine is gonna call these ten other problems. Now they require. They're all medication. Now they have to be rebalanced and research to need their own. Doctors visits in councils to assess and try to make sense of and then everyone of those potential solutions as half solutions are just like the dialysis machine in the kidneys calls. Another set of problems. It will need their medications and their committees and on and on in ultimately at the end of the day. we're all fighting over how to harm the organism. Whether we're problem we're going to create problems that moved to the left of problems that moved to the right or whether we're all going to have massive job loss or massive inflation or both gay all the while. The solution was to let the market itself. Tell us where the problem is and let the price system balance it. There is nothing about the problems we have today about where we have arrived that was caused by free markets. Free markets don't have interest rates can interest rate controls. Free markets don't have rampant runaway debts with zero percent inflation for i mean zero percent interest rates for eleven years. Free markets. Don't have money printers. Free markets don't have bailouts for irresponsible insolvent institutions. You know what those people do they go out of business. They collapse and their resources and their funds and their labor get re purposed to actual productive enterprise and responsible institutions. And now after all of this after fifty years of this mess. And we're on the cusp of fully embracing mnt in an environment. Where the idea of cutting the government spending even ten dollars is basically decried as murdering homeless babies. All i can say is thank god for bitcoin because without it i i see nothing even close to a way out of this. I see doubling down on every single thing that has led us to here we will be talking about all of the potential deflation inflationary environments and wear those things might be isolated where they might creep up first and what. These different models can lead to in different scenarios. Even even why deflation is decried. Is this horrible thing. Because in an credit in credit environment it is in fact a horrible thing and it's very destructive but it's a necessary solution to it's a necessary correcting of a problem that persists that has led to all the debt. And we get into a lot of this and hopefully Have a lotta time for some guys take tomorrow in part. Two of this on deflation and inflation a huge. Thank you to lynn alden for this piece for anybody who hasn't heard these concepts i know is probably pretty dense might need some multiple listens of but lynn alden is absolutely one of the The great resources for breaking all of this stuff down so huge. Thank you to lynn and Obviously i will have links in the show notes to check out her blog and follow her on twitter so you don't miss 'em tons of great works and of course a also we've done multiple pieces by lynn already on the show us all have a couple of my couple of my favorite ones linked in there as well huge. Thank you to our lovely sponsors. The box to hardware wallet for an open source secure place to store your bitcoin keys and swan bitcoin swan bitcoin dot com slash guy for your automatic savings plan and get ten dollars free just for signing up. It is the way to buy and stack sat a stack all the time stacked in this dip. That's how you do it. Set it and forget it and send it to your senator your keys senator your bit box so to thank you guys so much for listening. We have another episode. Come tomorrow will close this piece out and some really great reads later on in the week. So don't miss. It subscribe to bitcoin audible and follow me guys one on twitter and until next time everybody take these guys. This has been a one eleven production. And you're listening to bitcoin. Audible on the crypto konami network.
Introducing "IN RESEARCH OF"
"Monster House percents so this is is from TV guide special in search of ancient astronauts rod sterling narrates one hour special examining the theory phenomena in various parts of the world were created by visitors from other planets in ancient times so that's the TV guide blurb for this special in search of ancient shots shots in the welcome onto in research of the show where we what's the original TV show in search of and consider some of the explanations that the producers chose not to present this is our pilot episode in it is about the television special that served the pilot for the series in search of I want to think Rachel and Chris Lackey for our theme music. They are the hosts of the wonderful show Rachel Watches Star Trek and you can find them at Rachel White Star Trek Dot Com. They're not really involved in this show but they did serve as an inspiration for our format and also I just really like them. I'm Blake Smith writer researcher and podcast and who are you my name is Jeb card and I'm an archaeologist professor and author possibly also expert on the occult also and obtained reverand technologies and we are gathered here today on a show we're calling in research of in research of where we're going to be taking a look at the incredible impact of the TV show in search of and it's a little weird because we're starting off with a show called in search of ancient astronauts and maybe we could just give a little background on what that is and why this leads to in search of yeah so I wanNA credit probably the person I've I've seen that's given a a really good discussion of the history of this is Jason Colavito and if you're listening to this show and you do not know Jason Colavito amazing amazing website and blog then you need to go there because I cannot think of anyone who has done a more thorough job especially online on line of in detail critiquing responding describing and assessing all the sort of things on the history channel and ancient aliens and Americana Earth and all of those and we're not going to be getting to that level of of sort of looking every we will in fact check some things but that's doing something a little different. What are we doing well. We'll get to that yeah so Jason Colavito in his two thousand and five book book cult of Alien Gods which is really the first significant look at some of the origins in fiction like HP lovecraft of of ancient aliens in ancient astronauts. He talks about the development of a one hour. I mean it's something like forty six minutes but with commercials the one hour special which airs in one thousand nine hundred seventy two September nineteen seventy two. I don't want to say we're ancient ourselves but I don't know if people know what you mean by special special yeah that's actually a fair point but so there were scheduled television shows and if there was a thing that wasn't a scheduled television show which was usually usually either a like live not necessarily live but often live entertainment like circus of the stars where like they got Hollywood Hollywood people to walk tightropes or some bullshit. Oh and he did variety shows some parietal shows but they we're also where documentaries would be aired on on mainstream television which of course at this time was only three channels and this was one of those us and so I remember this. HBO Even talked about like having specials even though they didn't have series back that but that's a different discussion because they would have a very you know HBO. Let's be Oh special to have your butt in the seat in front of the television exactly when the show yes there was no time shifting there was no streaming these things things aired and we say aired literally through air. You know we're talking about. We're talking about television broadcasts on the electromagnetic spectrum butts what you didn't run to the kitchen and make a bag of popcorn during the break because there were no microwave popcorn back then well hang on on on this show is sponsored by Jiffy pop people but you can do that thing over the stove exactly yeah but so so this in one thousand nine hundred September nineteen seventy-two in search of ancient astronauts aired and I think that's quite fascinating dating given that where we are recording this a day after the fiftieth anniversary of Apollo Eleven's landing on the moon to note that this was only a few months before the last Apollo mission to them in late nineteen seventy two but Jason Talks about this but Alan Landsberg was a producer of a lot of what we can consider basically the origins of paranormal television. Yes there really wasn't almost any before this. I know I wanNA say cronkite did a UFO special feature canoes late. I think in the late sixties because in in nineteen he's sixty six there were the congressional hearings and what leads to the condon report and the whole swamp gas and we'll probably come back to that at some point but other than isn't that and I know there were a few small things like BBC but it wasn't like you could turn on the television and any given time there were six different ghost shows or four three different channels that entirely only show paranormal stuff which is where we are now you know like the Travel Channel Destination American history channel the saying that was really depressing but this is this is this is where it begins in art in essence where begins in search of evasion astronauts and we're going to get to where we are where we get to what we're doing. Blizzard set this up in search of ancient astronauts was a one hour special that will blake you know this part more that it was re purpose yes so so what would it actually is is there was a book culture so the gods written by Von. Daniken and it was actually not called chairs the gods original language it was called we remember the future something like your original. German 'cause he Swiss. If I remember correctly take data can and so it's written in German a few years earlier but I believe it's nine thousand nine hundred sixty eight. I think that chariots of the Gods is published in English and in so in one thousand nine hundred seventy a west German documentaries made by director called Herald. I believe it's pronounced Reindel and it's based on the book and it has an English language release and it's extremely popular is the ninth highest grossing film of Nineteen in seventy now. I want you all think about that. Yes Oh my God. I mean a documentary about H. Astros first of all documentary yeah exactly also as you're going to hear this is not video so just imagine that each of us have a thousand hands and each of the five hundred hands on are left the parents on our right our air quoting yeah around talk again. We'll get back to that but it it was produced it and basically what that film is is a about a ninety minute excursion all over the world with multiple thin film crews looking into the well no no let me not even say that regurgitating the content of air. It's an adaptation of attorney Gods so this was then re purposed in America right so they didn't want to run that whole documentary so they trimmed it down replaced the narrator from the movie with the Voice of credibility and mystery Rod serling right so this is near the end of rods early career and near the end of Rod serling is life and I'm just GonNa put this is out here as a note from Binghamton New York of which is rod surly hometown and he's our biggest celebrity celebrity like like there is a significant like Rod serling. There's the the Rod Sterling Theater. When I went to High School. It was the Helen fully auditory method. There's now a helen fully school of art. That was his teacher that inspired him he always talked about her and in fact in the episode where the Billy or whatever his name is puts the the people in the Cornfield the the twilight zone guy isn't good life yeah yeah yeah. It's a a good life. Something like this is a wonderful life but yeah that episode. There's a there is a teacher that comes to town or comes to the farm and that's based on her and I don't remember if the original episode that Caller Helen fully in the movie which adapts that that episode they do maybe in the original show I'd have to I'd have to go look at that sure someone can tell us but so. I have to put that out there I'm also from the twilight zone because surly talked about Binghamton. Being a a sort of inspiration in several stories were set there at a sense not quite because they're more generic than there are more broad than that but our Landsberg came to rod serling with this and again. I'm I'm pulling from memory off of reading Jason's cultivate Gods and the thing that sold him was the Nosko lines and again. I don't want to get into the context I do want to talk about. The show is but this is. This is a weird episode. I apologize in advance and this will be our standard format but no this is Richard using ourselves and the show because this is starts with a weird pilot but apparently according to Jason the thing that pulled surly November was the Nas Caroline's because surly and had been in a paratrooper and so he knew about seeing stuff from the air and so the whole concept of the NASCAR lines being seen from the air treat him and Jason also suggests that's clearly new lovecraft he was clearly I dunno by lovecraft fail but someone who knew his material because several lovecraft stories got their first real multimedia multimedia telling in night gallery absolutely yeah the the the follow up to the twilight zone that was more horror based and I think it was longer. I can't recall our long episodes. They were hour long. There are laws so they're little mini movies that all had a painting and we'll come back to that another other episode. Bu- of this show yeah we will we will because yes yeah yeah yeah. I didn't see that coming so surly does is this episode and we will probably come back to the other specials because there were about three or four but the success of this one with surliness narrator now note unlike the later in search of surly or unlike twilight zone which is weird. They didn't do this surly and in this episode at least this movie at least does not show up on camera nor is it a writer yeah. There is no like for consideration with him with a cigarette that doesn't occur. You'd expect it but it doesn't happen which is of course he's got the cigarette but he said he will do see with breath. Leonard Nimoy in what becomes in search of so there are several of these one hour documentary specials in search of agent astronauts in search of this search of that and then they create the television show in search of by that time surliness health had declined and I pretty sure I'm looking up so I'm gonNA leave the typing sound in yes. He Dies on June twenty eighth nineteen seventy five at the age of fifty. I didn't know he was born on Christmas. Very Isaac Newton he dies so they go to another voice of sort of scientific credibility Mr Spock Leonard Nimoy right that interesting that the mix of far out space possibilities and in logic and reason he brings his own gravitas right so that gets to what the show is going to be. I was a huge fan of that show when I was a kid and it probably helped bring me to where I am today Blake. I don't know about you a huge fan a and it was one of the shows I watched it in syndication but but not on the what was it I think picked it up and carry it later but I I how I watched it in one thousand nine hundred seventies in syndication so it would come on in the afternoons kind of Strange Times but I would be delighted every time I caught an episode yeah. I think mine was on at night like I've. I have a memory of watching it. I mean like this show. We're talking. I'm not even ten like I'm young when this is show show and and Blake is to like this is our childhood. I don't know if it was in syndication. If it was I run I think it from me it may in first run at night but I am sure this was a major influence on both of us. Oh sure yeah making terrible decisions with our lives to talk about monsters and archaeology all of us and all of that and in fact in the two thousand sixteen volume I edited Lost Lost City Found Pyramid with David Anderson. I did in the acknowledgments because let Nimoy had just passed when we were finishing up. I actually thanked him. You know because is I don't think that I would be there without him. That's not really a good thing. We're going to talk about that. So what this show is going to be is in in research of we WANNA talk about each of the episodes of in search of because honestly I don't know a gen-x person person into all these weird things who does not usually start with allowed you get into this like you're listening to a podcast or an interview well. How'd you get into this and almost almost always the answer is well. As a kid. I watched a lot of in search of gas and this is this is almost universally true in this sort of paranormal animal themed podcasts and because those stories come up again and again and I suspect if we as we go through these episodes if we end up bringing the experts in that will also universally true. Oh yeah so I just I. It's been a huge cultural influence fluence whether that's good or bad I think is worth conversation but we want to talk about that and so that's the only thing we're not just gonNA say oh. We're going to watch that. We're going to talk about what the episodes about we're. GonNa do that but the in research of is important because we want to talk about so we why don't we don't want to spoil some upcoming episode. We've watched a few of the early episodes now again for the first time in a long while and there's a lot more backstory to some of these people than the show. Oh let on so while there's that we wanna talk about that and secondly what's happened since I mean. There's a forty years old and you're like well. Why are we talking about forty years old well because in reality this is the beginning of paranormal television there is not paranormal television before this and and it is the model for paranormal television really until the mid to late two thousands when reality L. D. TV kind of takes over and you get you know angry guys in Black T. shirts yelling demons and we may talk more about that that what's interesting and I think we're going to get into this. This episode or this special is not only the beginning of heritable heritable television in pretty much every respect for good or bad and I would say no. I believe that allow we'll come back to that but it is almost beat for beat e- equivalent to the two thousand nine history channel special documentary that led to ancient aliens billions yeah it is so similar which given that that show was a forty year retrospective four chariots of the gods and Eric von Daniken in Eric's. Oh my God he's still out there. Fighting the bad fight so yeah just was alien. CON The History Channel A-a-any whatever inspired thing in in California India so that's going to be kind of our mission is look. We we clearly liked the show his kids it clearly was huge impact on us and a lot of other people. We're going to sort of take you through but we Kinda WanNa talk about the context of these shows what has come sense and sort of other points about the larger thing is that they speak to yeah and I think we were inspired by things like the HP lovecraft literary podcast. Oh yeah huge inspiration for the whole idea of doing an episode walk through a series that idea has been done quite a few. I was actually surprised is not to see one like this but even if there were one I don't feel there's going to be like Jeb and I'll be able to pull off here so yeah so so I think probably the two biggest perations nations on US podcast wise or one the HP lovecraft literary podcast which add pfeiffer and Chris Lackey and then Chris Lackey and his wife Rachel lackey than did did the show Rachel Watches Star Trek where they're watching they're almost done with the original series and I suspect they're going to go through given that they've been on BBC America and whatnot and so we might have a rating at the end of the episode that we might have mildly stolen from them but no these are I would say too inspirations and I would probably say the the other one another one would be Jason Jason Colavito. He doesn't podcast but he he routinely rides into the gates of hell and reports on all of these shows in detail and reviews them and and again. We're not going to get to that level of detail. We're not doing quite the same thing but I I would credit all of them because here's the thing folks citation is free regret regret is not but we would say I'd say all three of those as intellectual kind of ancestors to this absolutely and I think if you can get through this episode you'll enjoy the show. I think Oh we're going to have some really interesting. Take on the content. Whether these is missing in the in the actual content of this narrative is any kind of real examination of anything again they are basically regurgitating the material in von Denikin. Dan Bull not commenting on it. Yeah this is we we apologize for something. That's not out of our key. It's out of our control. We're going to address this show and we're. We're going to say things about it. It is this this episode or whatever this thing is a special not hours but there's the search engine astronauts. It seventy two is not not representative of in search of no so not only is it not just there's there's surly instead of Nimoy Nimoy John Screen. It's it's a much more compact. I also half hours an hour. There's not the weird since music that you're looking for. None of the bear bear impair nothing. You know you don't get that. It doesn't like if you didn't know that this was related to insert. It would actually be hard to connect them but we I did want to talk about this but our next episode we will be getting into the show. We may again revisit some of the serling specials beforehand. That's kind of special episodes besides so don't take this as a normal episode of in research. I do another podcast called monster talk and if you're coming to the show from there hey that's but we're planning on doing a sort of a deep dive into how in search of came to be in a full hour of nothing but the history of how insurgencies churches came to be and what is cultural impact was it will not be as it won't be like this is going to be a different thing so yeah heard that this is different. If during this and you want to check out monster talk show billing the show notes so they're gonNa have quite a different take. We've done enough intro intro trousers. Let's let's get into in search of ancient astronauts. Got Are shown us here in front of we've both watched this multiple times. Yep Yep. I will say watching it. The second time on double speed was very smart. Move It. There's also we'll put Lincoln. The show nuts too good copy the of this. There's a visually great copy of this on Archive Dot Org which looks great color for what it is. There's one on Youtube has got better sound sound but the picture is not that great so I don't know I didn't mind it like was that the one you talked about being read yeah well no no it didn't seem read. I had a DVD not that I bought it online. Oh red shifted to the point of it looked like I had on cyclops glasses. Oh Wow wow uh-huh cash that was an exit joke okay so so all right so in in search of ancient astronauts TV guide entry September Sixth Sixth Nineteen seventy-three by the way this is the repeat entrails in search of ancient astronauts documentary special worthy ancient Gods actually astronauts in his book chariots of the Gods Eric Von Daniken claims that extraterrestrial beings visited the earth centuries ago this nine hundred seventy two documentary reviews von Danone's evidence ancient carvings in Africa Italy and South America resembling minute spacesuits Indian writings and Biblical passages he interpreted it is reference to rocket blast off's Mayan Pyramids revealing a vast astronomical knowledge in a series of roads on Peru's planes of Nasca that lead nowhere and could perhaps served as an airfield. The program also examines the theory that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an atomic blast repeat sixty minutes all right that does and that is that is what's interesting and I think this is actually one of the things things we want to talk about because it actually doesn't open as much on the astronaut or on the ancient astronauts what that doesn't talk about how much the show is situated waited in its time of space exploration and again as I mentioned earlier this is while humans are going to the moon like the the final mission. Apollo seventeen seventeen is after this so this is near the end of the Apollo Program and while today we look at that period of Oh things didn't really really Kinda. Keep going at the time there was we're going to do this and we're going to have a space station. WE'RE GONNA go to Mars and all that and we do have a space station but you know I don't want to get into the whole history of NASA but it opens with talking to exobiology Slake Herald peak line Dr Klein of NASA's Ames Research Center who who was one of the major people that before in search of the television show would air but after this would be involved with the Viking landing on Mars and at the end of searching astronauts they actually talk about earlier probes to Mars and they get Carl Sagan like Carl Sagan's up in this business. We'll talk more about what he says later I think I think we'll we address what he says Larry. I think this should be an ending thing. You also shows up in this. Who've governor Brown verner phone Pena Munda Slave Labor v two rockets then helps take America to the Moon Brown and I don't I think that's an unfair compilation incredible rocket pioneer but did work with the Nazis. It is important to sort of paper clamping monitor this though Yes yes absolutely he is. He is one of the trophies of Operation Paper Clip of grabbing. I mean he you know the turnover engines and Literal v Two's and what is the beginning of America's CA space program. He's in this Herald Klein who I had heard of his in this Carl Sagan's in this so this is something I really WanNa note. These these are people that I don't think would show up on ancient aliens. I wonder how much they knew. I mean clearly Sagan knew what was going on but I don't know yeah 'cause 'cause Sagan. We'll come back to what he thinks about all this but it is worth noting Carl. Sagan was one of the earliest academics to actually seriously consider an ancient astronauts or ancient alien so let's let's just get that out of the way because there were astronauts going to the moon. This was called the ancient astronauts theory or concept back then today. It's ancient aliens. I think for two reasons one. There's a TV show in two and we don't think about astronauts as much as we used to. At the time I just kind of set this meeting an astronaut. It was like meeting meeting a rockstar right and also don't really have rockstars anymore it well. There's that too it pops. Let me rephrase meeting. An astronaut was like meeting a really important instagram influence or okay. I thought that's what you were going to say and then I didn't injure myself and I the whole my will well because yeah that's where we are now but yes right yeah. It's like meeting Justin Bieber. It's just like that it. It is so self harming right now culture changes but the the reason they're there is to provide the rest of the the movie with the Gravitas of look. You know here's a representative of a human accomplishment science authority a all things that seem to have lost cultural value well and I will say this. I will say this as we're going to see in the actual show. Oh in search of there is a massive tonal difference between it not this episode but well to some degree this episode but definitely the full show with Nimoy that we're GONNA see we're gonNA listen to and say ancient aliens or other paranormal things today of a hopeful exploratory versus dark conspiratorial perspective. We live in very different place now and we will. We will come back to this point so on the one hand. I wasn't one hundred percent surprise. They had real scientists. I will say when they were like vertebral umbrella like are they going to really put him on. Oh my God he's onscreen. That's happening and I wasn't a hundred percent surprise by saying and so I guess the closest today you might find. I don't know if Michio Kaku ever showed up on ancient aliens. He's obviously been a lot on coast to coast. I wouldn't be surprised if he was on ancient. Aliens ends and there have been a few other serious scientists ancient aliens but it's not like what we're talking about here. This would be literally bringing out your stellar eller public names this would be like hey Stephen Hawking before he died and after be more interesting and Neil degrasse Tyson on ancient aliens. That would be like like what what what's happening in this episode. Let's yeah let's get to the tech. Let's get the weird stuff. The first weird thing in my notes was the battery. This is really funny to me because as we go through this series as we're gonNA run into these things that are going to be recurring themes. If you had a drinking game for ancient aliens I think one of them would be if people said some believe narrators some believe that that take a drink in certainly being alcoholic with an another one I would say would be Puma Poku. That's a good one yeah. We'll come back to that but the Baghdad battery oboe is is just an absolute classic of Ancient Alien Ancient Astronauts so I I have seen it at a gazillion times on television and I I guess the Short version of it is theoretically it's it is a it was. We don't know if it's still exists. It was just it was looted in two thousand and three during the looting of the Baghdad museum founded by Gertrude Bell but but it was stolen it was one of the things we're losing two thousand and three so probably in some High Tech entrepreneurs a personal collection now or I can think of a number of places it might be so the Baghdad battery battery was a ceramic vessel now. I'm going to put this out there. I talked earlier about being an archaeologist which I am however the Middle East is not. I'm not my primary thing. Do you have a handful of can inform tablets and whatnot. We'll get into that but now in our special questions at the library abry but I'm not a specialist in this area so I had that has to be remembered. I am a specialist in Central America Mesoamerica the Maya Spooky and a few other things and I actually computer tech monsters and Pines so yeah so it's it's. It's basically a small earn. I would say about the size. It's a little bigger than a twelve ounce can but not a lot like it's something hold in your hand and it it had incited a copper tube yeah thin copper tube job and a rod of iron inside of that and it was found in Iraq and it's late they call it the the Baghdad battery and that's that's fair but that's because more the Baghdad Museum. It's it's basically Roman era more or less. That's old is quite old but in the nineteen thirties of current egg who was involved with the National Museum of Iraq. There's a lot of history of the Germans as well as English in Iraq because it's important for controlling that region as part of the great games Afghanistan but you get the idea and he looked at at that time wondered could it have been used for electroplating gold because he was aware of objects covering gold and he thought if you put it's a sort of would it be like a light acid a lime juice or something like that in it it would function as a battery kind of like Kennedy to potato batteries yeah yeah and that idea propagated and it has become a standard of alternative archaeologists now other vessels like this have been found and a lot has been considered to be containers for scrolls that this was in essence the protective covering for a book if you WanNa think of it that way but not not this incredible innovation of a scroll container that also can provide you with an electric reading light they went nothing was a battery. They would scroll protect. You think it's a battery all these various folks and that's it's how it's being presented quickly like they don't spend a lot of time on it to know yet. Remember that we're looking at a scaled down version of of of a longer documentary which itself is essentially like just a series of assertions like over and over and over again look at just weird mystery. Look at this where mystery mystery you know and as we'll see turns out somebody should about the map yeah so there's this idea that this thing is is a battery and what's interesting interesting and I did not know this part of the show. I need to go back and find this one. Dr Kenneth Feder a favorite friend of the show talk and I have been on in the past the the show archaeological fantasies where he was wanted to major coast for came on actually appeared in an episode of mythbusters busters where they tried to test this and basically like does it work like this. Is You Kinda do this but it's not really a thing like like you can sort of do it a little but they really didn't find it important yet on ancient aliens in the two thousands in the early twenty tens they a very much played with the Baghdad battery and I think they talked about there being fields of big Baghdad batteries even though there's literally one of these things and it feels kind of like an an accident of preservation yeah and it they go a little further in modern docks around this material in an imply that not not only was it a battery but that they had developed electroplating and we probably should go through all the museums the world and look at gold objects which may in fact be electroplating this is of course absurd many levels but but you don't need to start scratching up artifacts to find out whether or author made gold it turns out that people have been able to assess the density of items figure out whether they're actually made of gold a long long time not only that not only that there are various. Suazo complete things with gold that are not entirely gold. You can use chemical cleaning my favorite of this is not in the old world and the new world in northern the mood chair the magic of the first money and see where they would mix alloy of gold silver and other metals but they would get gold surfaces impart because goal doesn't corrode so if you put certain kinds of substances possibly involving urine on to mix as you can you can throw away everything everything but gold and they were master metallurgists so you don't need a battery that doesn't actually seem to be a battery but they start with the the Baghdad battery. That's that's where they beginning again. Unfortunately has been looted since that time but I think probably what's most important after that is they cut to a fairly extended sequence of the concept of cargo cults Blake Deep. Do you want to kind of chime in on this one. You know the first place I encountered the idea of cargo cargo cults was in writing by Richard Feynman the physicist and he was talking about something he talked about as cargo cult science where you are looking at something as an I guess is what Sharon Hill recalled being scientific trying to emulate science but not actually doing science and the reason they call it cargo cult is because I guess during the Pacific Battles of World War Two you had all these people coming in and building landing strips strips for airplanes and bringing in all these fabulous items of cargo and the locals didn't fully understand this is the story and I'm not saying this. This is true but the story is that the locals didn't understand what was happening and believed that that just by rebuilding runways in creating airplanes out of wood and other other materials that they could lure back the gods of cargo. There's also a a sort of a culture around a guy named John Frahm as in I'm John from Alabama but but but but here they're doing a runway with a fake airplane and people sort of gather round praying that people will bring cargo from the sky in that secrets there. There is some truth to this yeah. They're showing people like like. Reverently you know looking at these pointing. This guy there is some truth. The notion of carbon colts is older in fact the John John from religion begins before World War. Two now a earlier than that and the reality is that there is some truth to some of this the idea that Melanesia and elsewhere in the Pacific outside images get incorporated into local spirituality at the same time. A lot of this has to do with mission ization MM allows us to do with larger larger aspects of colonialism but ancient astronauts people love this idea basically what it allows house is. Oh this is made by the local people but it's an image of something else because here's the thing if if there was a machine made of unobtainable him that's chemically from Zeta ridiculous to light years away found in Peru will then we're really talking about ancient aliens but if it's Oh here's an image of a thing that might be a butterfly hi but actually I'm saying. It's a spaceship in a painting that's May clearly by local people will then the cargo idea becomes very very important because it allows you to say well. Yes the local people made this and yes they said there were gods but they said that their gods where people came from the sky and I actually actually think that those are aliens and cargo cult really features in Bonn data and as a result I it's interesting. I JUST WANNA throw out there. You're absolutely right. The impact impacted this on the ancient alien shows going forward and not just that show ancient aliens but the the whole part of our culture that really likes this idea of ancient astronauts or received a knowledge if you will it what bothers me about cargo cults is. I've always been suspicious that there is yet another. Uh subtexts to this where people say look at those locals there so primitive and superstitious. They think this is how you get stuff. Aren't they. Dumb ha ha oh absolutely absolutely and I just very suspicious that that that that's not really all this going on with carbon goals. That's just our interpretation. We don't let it is yes. I think it is I mean one. That's GONNA come up. Repeatedly in search of ancient alien is the idea of of light skinned outsider. That's that's a colonial myth breath a lot of these things have to deal with the impact of colonialism and what Carter 'cause remind me up to a large extent. Anthony Wallace was a student of religion anthropology etc and he is most famous for his creation of the idea of revitalization movements and revitalization movements our new religions that meld indigenous in colonial contexts indigenous religions with aspects of colonial religions worldviews often with visionary apocalyptic aspect and then these religions go on actually become full on religious movements and cargo cults remind me of this so the sort of pop culture idea is a bunch of US servicemen on an island and then they start making models of air people locally start making models of airplanes because they don't understand any of this technological society. I largely suspect a fair amount of this is missing decades earlier colonial conditioning and interaction and that doesn't rule it out as a model for ancient aliens or agent astronauts but that needs to be taken into consideration that a lot of this. I think is Westerners thinking about this in ways that make them look kind of amazing. Yes now are there any sort of pop culture examples samples. Were we could see what it might. Look like if a futuristic cultural the one. I don't like this movie. It's probably the only part of this movie I like. It is the the Kelvin Timeline of star trek. The J.J ABRAMS CBS episodes of Star Trek Movies of Star Trek. I don't like any of these movies. Although the last one is actually more star trekkie but the first one I don't like for reasons the second doc it one into darkness star Trek into darkness yeah where they make the really bad decision of trying to touch the culture roll lodestone of Wrath of Khan but the first ten minutes our intrepid heroes actually a very star trekkie fashion save gave a bunch of primitive people on a planet that's going to be destroyed by up all Keno and in doing so in order to save spock from diamond the volcano they have to reveal the enterprise and the enterprise becomes the center of worship and this is all about the prime directive and this is very cheeky but it's very good because ancient astronauts ancient aliens was a major theme of Star Trek. There are numerous episodes in the original series that are about that that that are very much about that idea so that's actually very appropriate and the planet there visiting is the planet Nibiru and that's an episode so by itself. Yes it is we're leaving that would alot. Let's just let's just say the fact that they made sure that you knew as a planet Nibiru. I'm surely really meant as an inside joke. Oh my God so they a Lotta time is spent in the episode of in search of ancient astronauts the special on on cargo cults once they get past the cargo cults it moves into my part of the world. That's right this is. I knew when I was watching this part. I bet and we're going to have a lot to hear about this because here's the thing I I haven't seen anybody like really addressed rested stuff with the expertise by so here we go. This is what's going to make this show gold. Don't do that absolutely elitism the show to raise those expectation choice so let's go so we go onto Mesoamerica Mexico yes so they leave that Paul neck hands so let's that is they start showing various objects mostly monumental stone which I think is important and I don't want to get too deep into this theory but basically monumental stone images are a thing of states a the thing of state societies like Oh look. There's a forty foot tall statue of a dude I think we're dealing with the state society and that's not a good way because it's usually about Hubris and having too much power in a very small set of hands but enough about that huge problem they show an Almac head they show various images from Tattoo Walk on the Classic Period Imperial City in central Mexico and they flip back and forth and it's kind of hard to talk about this because they throw Tijuana coup which is in South America in its way far away. That'd be like a now. We're GONNA talk about English civilization by English. Let's show you the city of Baghdad. I mean each level of distance and this is not unusual because in reality people very much have Maya Azteca Inca view where everything south of the Rio Grande Day. That's impressive is all one thing and and and we'll we'll run into that again and again both in in search of and ancient aliens and other shows but they kind of quickly warped through all of this and we'll come back to the errors bit but this is where they introduce the inspiration for all of this Eric von Daniken and I believe I believe I believe the quote is the mind of a scientist and the soul of a romantic Donnegan a German professor possessed of the mind. It's scientist and the imagination of a romantic and the criminal record of a con artists well. I'm not gonNA tell them car is I will call him an embezzler because he was convicted and went to jail for that and eventually he long story short. He was convicted for him. He was a hotel clerk. In Switzerland. Switzerland embezzled a lot of money according to the court finding against him so he could go around to various sites around the world not gonNA call that vacation in 'cause. I'm you know we all have our our sins that became his research for charts. God's he did go to prison for that but then when chariots of the gods made a lot of money he was able to to pay back restitution and then got out and then became an international celebrity so he reformed himself delve into a cultural anarchist into something I may have other words we'll come back to Sagan's. Take on this but they introduce him at this point and they throw in for a bit period map. I don't know if they call it that but they're like in a I can't do a good surly. I might be able to Nimoy. I can't really do a surly but in you know monastery in Istanbul here's dams palace took copy curious set of maps or kept here which were found in the Orient by the Turkish Admiral Perry riche they go and they look at the peary reese map which is a a colonial period map that most historical experts look at it's like this is a map of South America and extension South America but in the nineteen hundreds hundreds in the twentieth century I want to say in the fifties it gets turned into a map of Antarctica and not only in Artika Antarctica with the ice missing right and they'll like this is not ancient astronauts but it becomes a green handcock. It's it's kind of all the above because some are like oh the only way you could do this would be to be in orbit and other shows no astronauts as well as like Graham Hancock super size. The Big Graham Hancock himself tries to himself from ancient astronauts. I I assume he's constantly refining his message key he very much. I'm actually working on a thing later debut this he very much does not talk about aliens from outer space on the other hand he very much ropes in alien abductions but not as aliens as spirits from the other realm. That's beyond this episode will leave. This allow towns. It's Mike them up later. They go into the period map and that's the thing this this this show jumps all over the place they go into the period reese map and try to argue and my favorite part is there's a section that looks like Antarctica Ika and you realize that's not the period snap. That's a later map so there is a bit of sleight of hand here where they are. They're kind of mixing these these things so they go in the period map for a bit. It's kind of puzzling and honestly if you didn't know the backstory here you'd it almost be like what are they talking about but then they get the kind of the meat of the business and go back to Mesoamerica go back to Mesoamerica and they go to Tanzania welcome which is an incredibly important place it does mean and not what the language of the later Aztecs and Nasdaq's not what they call themselves they call themselves Mexica the city of the gods or the city or the place where men became God's or the city. Were got something something along those lines but it's pretty obvious what it means you know it's the city of the Gods and technical con is gets it start in the late part of the first millennium. BC So it really gets jumpstart around fifty BC or ABC those at the same thing thing but there's different reasons and becomes this massive metropolis this grid city like has blocks like like like think of Manhattan with with North South East West all eleven degrees east of North if I remember correctly for reasons that title valley but that becomes a signature of on there's the massive avenue of the dead which is anchored by two Pyramids The Pyramid of the Moon and the Pyramid of the sun and I just want to point out in the episode in in search of ancient astronauts they talk a lot about the pyramid of the Sun while pointing pointing the camera at the Pyramid of the Moon from the Pyramid of the Sun. I get the feeling and we'll talk about why this is if you're old enough to remember all your base belong to us. I mentioned which which was kind of making fun of how in the eighties and nineties he's there were many really good video games from Japan that were then translated into English poorly. Yes the fact that this is an adaptation of a German film in this section in particular I think becomes important because there are many many errors and I think some of them are in fact from they are errors in. They are lost in translation on the real city. Its its population at the highest. Estimates are two hundred thousand people. I've seen that largely rolled back to about half. That's about one hundred and twenty five thousand which still would have made it one of the largest cities on earth at that time there were twenty two hundred apartment compounds that house between forty and one hundred people people it was a major player at one point it appears to have been at least somewhat imperialist controlling a good chunk of the Maya around to the east and we might talk about that in a future future episode but the episode sells it as the heart of the Aztec civilization and there are like about five things is wrong with that the word Ashtec is emphasized in the nineteenth century it comes from tech means people love or ECM means people of olmec Aztec Mitch Mitch Tech Stack in the language of the machine the triple alliance in the Fifteenth Century Right before the Spaniards get there and then the spagna meet them Moctezuma Montezuma's you know all of that the triple alliance a senator to notch lawn and they and other non watt speakers say they came came from Ostlund a place to the north so when they're talking about their ancestors he referred to them as Aztec people from us Lem but in later times they'd be Sheikha but in nineteenth century scholarship there was an emphasis on trying to emphasize Mexicans because racism so Aztec sounds awesome to people in the name has kind of stuck but regardless that term if you're using it for that purpose refers to people of the Fourteenth Fifteenth Century Tattoo a gun had been dead for a thousand years or eight hundred years not dead there. There were about fifteen twenty thousand people that continue to live in calm but it was not an imperial center anymore you know Rome continued to be a city but in the Middle Ages. It's not the heart of empire. It's very similar to that actually very contemporaneous. I mean teotihuacan tight is about the same time is Rome so they they look at various structures at Teotihuacan on including the Temple of the feathered serpent which they invoked repeatedly in in search of ancient astronauts because a myth mergers in the colonial period that the feathered serpent figure Kessel Coa or a king using his name the city of Tula. We'll talk about that in a minute was was light skinned and bearded which fits into a Spanish colonial ideal that they were taken as gods. You can see the obvious political value of this but that's the story that we always hear as he. We absolutely here in this episode. Yup that that the when the Spanish arrived there was a pre existing mythology around light skinned people and that's not a thing that's not a thing and that that's the Myth Myth Myth. It's I would call the falsehood. Sorry it's a Spanish colonial. Myth is basically a lie that has now become a myth yeah yeah. It's a myth now because it does explain things. It's just propaganda I mean how did where did it come from. That's really complicated. Kenai have gone round around on this and there are people have written about this and it's hard to talk about like there is some evidence there is some real evidence. I will say this that some Americans win they met that Spaniards did associate them with divine entities like gods the Moctezuma. The Emperor of the triple lights may have done this. There were others that absolutely absolutely we're like no these are people these are absolutely people but there may have been some but it wasn't because of light skin or anything like that it was because they were strange and weird and came from a different I'm actually a little bit sympathetic with the Spanish on this because I have to deal with that same kind of thing all the time being weird and treated like yeah. I'm weird God so but but no this idea propagates in in the clinic here very quickly very very very quickly on the idea that Cortez was taken as a God when to Soto goes into low Florida which part of it is Florida but the rest says the southeastern. US they play on that idea like this became almost immediately like Oh. Here's how you do it you set yourself up as God and then you take their emperor or their king prisoner prisoner and he thinks this is all based on Cortes in fifteen thousand nine hundred fifteen twenty one there is some evidence that they were seen as at least weird and divine horses horses. Were pretty baffling to them. I will say that they were seen as big deer but then there was also the are they joined they sent tower. I know you gotta think about this. I mean for for their culture to see people riding horseback wearing armor. It's it's very much like when when you're my age and you go to town now you see her by writing electric scooters. It's just like is that when creature is it two yeah I'm pretty sure though that the didn't have as much disdain the end they did as I'm an old man yelling at a cloud at the end they did well they also they also have the smallpox but but no so this gets brought up repeatedly league in search of ancient astronauts so this whole section on on Mesoamerica is is a mess and it's not just an ancient astronauts ancient aliens bad interpretation mess that is there so go to the city of Tula which is much later than tangible con still before the quote Unquote Aztecs and the classic are these headdresses helmets for spaceships no no they're not it's it's kind of a form of the balloon headdress of of war and the Coho are they. They're carrying strange objects like no. That's a spear thrower for they have been depicting spear throwers like that for a thousand years like this is this is this is not mysterious but of course and I will point out some of this material archaeologically has come to light since that period you know a big part of this has been the decipher of the writing system which had not had sort of started when the show aired but it really had not caught fire yeah it was about to catch fire so I will give give them that but at the same time a lot of this was still know but then never even minding the ancient aliens part. There's really bad at geography doc. Rafi like there's the city of Tula which is in central Mexico and they're like and then nearby the site of Sonoda. Wait wait. Wait what I'm sorry. Sonoda is a generic word for a sinkhole in Yucatan it comes from the Maya Zona and I and I thought that sounded familiar. Yeah people go diving in sometimes yes and many cities and settlements and Yucatan have them basically quick geologist but quick geology once you get north of the Guatemalan border in Qatar the states of Yucatan Arro- and the Yucatan peninsula is supercar stick it is Super Limestone and yes Kentucky and all these areas have carson topography who but they still have rivers you on doesn't it doesn't have rivers it doesn't have lakes all the water immediately percolates down on into the carsick limestone which means there are huge cave systems which is amazing there are huge cave systems everywhere and ancient and Modern Maya people people because I am sure we're going to do an episode where they talked about. The disappearance of the Maya Day did not disappear there eight million Maya people today language speakers and so on but they would go into these caves. They thought of them as the underworld. They thought them as the con- The contact place to the other world she ball by the place of fright is a watery underworld well. Yucatan literally sits on caves full of water and many of the city's have Sonoda. I I lived it for about a month or you know was in for about a month not live this out right in the city of by elite which had several days like the seat new under mazing amazing like you're in a Latin American city and there's like this and there's a parking lot and then you're like Oh. I'm now in an amazing like cave that looks like something out of Tomb Raider. It's it's astonishing all of these and the most famous of the Sonatas and this is the one they're talking about but again I think because of the all your base problem from German original the snow they they're talking about is the well of Chuck the storm God in Maya at Cicek. It's up. She is probably the most important archaeological site and Yucatan it. Literally means Chee Mouth Chen well eat saw uh of us at the mouth of the well of the East Sauce Isa's are a dynasty and a political element they later move into northern Guatemala Sixteen well by the sixteenth century but at one point they have their dynastic seat at she saw and one of the major features is the Sonata Day often known as the well of Sacrifice Nice 'cause they did actually throw stuff and people in as Edward Thompson dredged in the early twentieth century in an old time diving suit problems. We'll talk about that. Maybe another at a time but in the show they're like. Oh the site of Sonoda like no. That's no that's wrong. That's so so wrong and then they continue mister sterling continues to the East in the in the Maya region. There's the city of Geneva. It's like well she Chinese but secondly note days literally in the center of it so yeah Crack Research Crack Research Research on crack. What are the other so oh and now you have this knowledge this this level of expertise in this because it's your academic field and I've been there a few times when they talk about stuff that I'm will read in. I noticed a lot of problems what troubles me is the parts that don't ring untrue. I worried that that's just because I'm not an expert in them as well and again. One of the most influential things I've ever read on this is the intro to fraud Smith mysteries by Ken feder where he says the exact same where he liked all this these sorts of things until it got to a section archaeology and he's white one no that's wrong. That's it's wrong and then he began to realize oh. Probably all of this is wrong. It's just that I know this one part because I I know this material but the rest of it I'm a layman so I believe it yeah and I think there's a lot of that a lot of that going on here so they they talk a long time at she chen and there's a lot of things said about Cuco Khan and all this good chunk of it is wrong. They talk about the Maya calendar being accurate within one day in six thousand years. That's not right the Maya various calendars are in very impressive basically before the Gregorian reforms to the western calendar the Mesoamerican calendars especially the probably the best on earth but they had their issues and the minute they would change them from time to time and they talk about observatories before jumping in to Brown and we've already talked about that so I won't revisit it one part I did mention though they sites and writer and sociologist Eric Hoffer and there's like a long quote about about how we are not from here and how we're alienating. I get the feeling this quote is out of out of context but it's also tied into an onscreen interview with Herald Climb the Nas the NASA site is we talked about earlier where he talks about this idea you hear all the time in Ufo an ancient alien circles that earth is too primitive earth is is not worthy. If we amihai aliens they will be better. They're more sophisticated. I find this idea fascinating. It feels like a reaction reaction to the middle of the twentieth century it feels like a reaction to nuclear weapons and World War Two and the Holocaust and all these things like like almost a form form of self doubt yeah like lookout destructive we are you know that team goes back to the the recurring in sort of new age themes around the contact dis from your foes the the idea that that hey guys you're in danger. Blow yourselves up us. We have the answers hey you guys are ruined the world. We pollutants a space guys. We've got the answer. This savior from space is going to not only save us now but actually look. It actually gave us all our culture right. Yeah get put a pin in that. We're GONNA come back to that at the end now we've you. You may feel like we've been rambling all over the place when in reality we've been talking about about Mesoamerica places at this point and we're not talk about all these like we cannot go. Every every episode cannot be like this is a special well not only that we're not even going to go through the rest of this episode point-by-point because at this point in search of ancient astronauts goes everywhere. I think you mentioned it being like just just just never ending talking and never like thirty seconds here a mini here now. We're in the Sahara now. We're in Italy. Now we're in Australia. It's like the hardest is broken and it's just hopping all over the place yeah and these are things that have become staples staples of ancient aliens and again we go to Jason Colavito site. I guarantee you will find debunking of many of these things but there's this piece after piece after piece and it's it's hammering the viewer and this is where it feels like ancient aliens so again. I think like we said this earlier. This episode does not feel like in search of in search of is actually a lot calmer and a lot. The more we have one topic. We're covering it. We're going in weird places. They defined the whole narrative. It's twenty two minutes long. They don't have a lot of time. They bring. They bring on experts words They're willing to make mistakes. It's a much more interesting show. Yes it absolutely is this feels a lot like the TV show ancient aliens that jumps everywhere like here's the thing here's the thing here's the thing here's the thing here's the thing and I have heard this call hall the stratagem of Dazzling with B. S. Yeah yeah of of basically throw everything your audience and it was on and so I think I think they do that so worth it. I guess it would be the documentary version of the Gish Gallop from Emma. Yes yes absolutely that's a creationism versus evolution sort of got him Duane Gish. I think who who who he's his specialty was just throw out so many assertions that if you wanNA use rational responses you can't because it takes a lot longer to explain why something is wrong that it does just say what's the Mark Twain go with the allies around the world twice won the truth still put his shoes on basic something like that and not only that here's the other thing a lifetime of experience will tell you the people here will have all of their factories and if you don't know there's then you're all but if you bring in yours they don't. Matt Burke also don't debate just don't do it. I'm looking at you a the science guy. I'm just saying yeah so Mr Nye obviously with our first stab at this and so it will probably evolve organically. This is is probably the biggest target that we have to try to respond to but we'll put a law. I will put a lot of show notes oh absolutely but but here's the let me ask this question. There are probably true for all the services we steps to the series. How come your facts putting the air quotes around your facts. Are Somehow better than their facts. Air quotes like what makes your information more credible than they're pretty pictures pictures and Rod Sterling Talk I would say the reason is not because I have a PhD behind my name or any of those things it's because yes they throw everything at the screen and they throw things that don't hold up win professionals in this this this is one of the problems this is why getting professionals so repeatedly in the show they've Herald Klein. They've got Carl Sagan and here's what they say well I. I can't rule it out but there's no evidence for it right there. You're seeing the attitude of well. I can't say that's not true. I I can just tell you what I know because I've looked at fifty different sources and I have tried again and again to check what I say with other possibilities any actual professional will try to assemble their argument and then try to find any number of reasons why it is wrong whereas here it's here's five reasons. I might be right if I ignore every three other question associated with these so for example one that we pass by they go to the Maya City Palanca nights the modern name for it it would've probably been buckled because the emblem cliff of the how dynasty there was Bach or out which means of bone and and can each hung up call the second great call of the seventh century that is buried in the temple of the inscriptions nations epoch a Palanca his arcus. We understand a lot of what's going on. This is the famous always an astronaut. This is disgusting in some detail in the episode. He's an astronaut. He's controlling things and he's in a capsule and there's a rocket behind him. It's like no if we look got many other depictions from classic Mesoamerica he is associated with the walkout sean the tree of life that that connects the three worlds the underworld this world and the above world and he is an apotheosis. He has died because it is our office but he is being brought brought back as deity because he's got smoke out of his forehead like a deified person at like a divine person and he's not got as as they say in the episode padding behind him. That's a ceremonial bowl with specific symbols in it and we know these for many other examples examples and we based the fact of what we say or we basically interpretations of what we say on there being many other things that my my comment on it whereas something like von Daniken or this show saying he's an astronaut is literally purposely not looking at sources that have looked at fifty other things they are purposely not looking at context or they are delinquency not looking at context text whereas we are trying to do so. We are like how could I be wrong. How are the ways I could be wrong and we only speak speak once. We realized we have looked at many avenues how we could be wrong and they don't happen so i. I Like I've recently begun thinking about part of this. That's what I call the tortoiseshell cat problem right so if you know genetics often times an example bowl of a sex specific characteristic is the tortoiseshell cats females in order is a recessive trait for a count data. What's caps. No no no no caps so this is a kitty cat hortus shell cap problem so The tortoiseshell coloring pattern. That's replied splashy not Brown and Tan kind of mixed cat thing that's recessive trait in it's carried on the x chromosome which means that in order a to have the trait manifests itself. You need to have two x chromosomes and in in normal genetics that means you have a female as a consequence It's commonly said that if you see a tortoiseshell cat it's a female because again it has to x chromosomes therefore four female now. Here's the thing if you ask a biologist. is that true or all cats tortoiseshell female. They're likely to you say it's usually true now in reality in your in my lifetime. If we watch a day come through the neighborhood chances chances. Are we gonNA watch a candidate for the rest of their lives. Never see a male cat with a tortoiseshell pattern but there is a circumstance where can have two XS his and a y chromosome is a genetic defect but if that happens and both those XS have that trait you could technically have a male tortoiseshell cat or very unusual but it can't happen but it so absurdly unlikely Black Swan kind of thing yeah. It's just so rare that you don't need to say it's true. It's it's effectively true that all our female right you don't you don't build systems of understanding on it right yet that little bit of doubt that that desire for science to be precise in his language this required. It's absolutely required that that'd be precise in its uncertainty is not a cultural value and it's not colloquially understood and this is exactly the kind of exactitude that scientists want to keep for themselves professionally but actually works against it culturally at seeing valuable and I hate it and I'm home we we we absolutely see in this episode yeah again the in search of show. You're going to see less of it because it frankly feels more honest. It feels more like inquiry this this doesn't because it's based directly on Von. Dan's book which does not have that charity and when we see ancient aliens in two thousand nine which is based directly on Bond Danton we again see that lack of charity so they leave Mesoamerica and at this point they transferred to the written record and myths and legends and I think that's actually really important now to be again to be fair in one thousand nine hundred seventy two. Meyer writing was very poorly understood. Today we can read the vast majority of it and we're refining our understanding standing that was not the case at all there were a handful of people who could read bits of it not phonetically the phonetic phonetic breakthrough of Eureka's had been made in the fifties but through to the Cold War was not accepted in the West until the seventy s and in fact often people points in the nineteen seventy-three exploration of the PALANCA material a year after this as the breakthrough in my writing so that hasn't happened so that's fair that said the fact that the Americas are shown as and other non literate as what's going on here whereas we now move to Tibet and the quote Unquote Holy Land of all these things and all of a sudden there's text this gets to division and we may talk about this in a future episode between history in prehistory and I'm air quoting all of that in archaeology standing there there's discussion of Tibetan books and all this but here's the apart I really WanNa talk about. There is extended section about the Ark of the covenant that I think it's probably one of the most important legacies of this show so again I want to point out the cultural context this show airs in in Nineteen Seventy two in this episode they talk about all of the detailed descriptions of how to create the Ark Ark of the Covenant and the Old Testament of gold and dimensions on all of that and discuss the Ark of the covenant as potentially a radio to talk to to higher beings now in this show. It's aliens but that could easily become a radio to God is a direct quote from raiders of the lost Ark Nineteen eighty one. I believe and I think what's really important. Here is the history three of that movie in the late. Nineteen Seventies Friends Steven Spielberg and George Lucas were actually vacationing together with their partners in Hawaii and Spielberg had really wanted to make a James Bond movie and he had been turned down. I think they were trying to push the English to make James Bond movie at that time yeah and he brought me made a mistake but that's another thing yeah. That's a whole other interesting. There's a time line that might actually enjoy. Yes yes but Lucas he said no but what we're about to get so well that's true. That's true good point. It's a fifty fifty so lucas said to him. No no no. I've got a better idea what about and then he basically describes the beginnings of what Becomes Indiana Jones now. There is an amazing audio document it or audio document. It's a transcript and people have actually performed audio which is amazing but over two days in the late nineteen seventies albums nineteen eighty. I think it's a very late nineteen seventies Lucas Spielberg Org Larry Kasdan who scripted so many of your memories of the nineteen seventies and eighties and still works and I think there's one other person I have to go look got together and hashed out not just raiders of the lost Ark but the concept of Indiana the Jones and this transcript exists and we'll try to put that in the show notes but in this transcript they explore so many things that become come this character and all of the weird stuff is coming from Lucas. Now Lucas was an anthropology major. He always wanted to be an anthropologist logist. which is perhaps why he he talks repeatedly about in making raiders? Oh I finally got my tribe when he when they film in Hawaii Wii and they have all the whole vetoes running through Hawaii throwing spears indy bows bows and arrows nothing the both because that's terrible use of a projectile weapon he's he walks which are again a primitive tribe but then he makes archaeology professor expert in the Occult and Obtain Guarantees Indiana Jones now in this script meeting or this development meeting. Lucas repeatedly refers to the villain which becomes belloc in raiders of the lost Ark as I have to look up specifically but I think it's basically professor von Daniken Etiquette. He literally says von Daniken wow even references doesn't say chariots of the Gods but references the ancient astronauts thing and then of course in in raiders of the lost Ark.. The BELLOC character refers to the Ark of the Covenant as its transmitter. It's a radio for speaking speaking to God will see now. You're making me. I can't believe I'm going to say this but you're making me. WanNa Watch the fourth installment again with the knowledge that Lucas was always into this jess. You always listen to it yeah. No we can talk about that. I actually I don't like the fourth one I think it's very interesting because it tried like the first one did but I strongly so it is clear that raiders of the lost ark was very heavily influenced by the legacy of Yvonne Daniken and it is entirely plausible that lucas red chariots of the gods but if I had to put money down on a table yeah one always black but beyond that I would probably put money on Lucas watched this yeah yeah I suspect suspect this is the seed that gives us raiders of the lost Ark or a seat. AC So I just want to put that out there. That's kind of amazing Zing watching this. I was like oh no talking about gold. He's GonNa call it a radio to talk to go. It's a radio that's happening so they then walk through. Egypt's one of the things that I keep hearing the he says it's funny to me how many things I've heard hundreds of times and other shows and it was it's all right here and nobody's answered this on this type of show. What is the deal with Danton making a big big deal out of Tut's tomb not having soot in it and therefore they must have had electric lights. I don't know what the implications there's a lot of vague implications. The idea there is that the the the the roof is not covered in soot therefore they must not have used torches in there and and I am no expert in pyrotechnics but I strongly suspect that has a lot to do with the fact that torches are far less powerful powerful than you actually think. Yeah you know turns out if you set a fire for a bit doesn't like turn everything black but I'm just gonNa leave that one alone he he talks about that but they're basically they're trying to argue that they must have used electric light. They must have had electric. Certainly they imply a lot. There's a lot and that's and that's a big hit on ancient aliens later where they are pointing at things every other Egyptologists. That's a lotus flower but like they're like oh no. That's that's a that's a light bulb with a filament in it. There's a lot of discussion about the idea of light injection tombs. If you ever saw the nine hundred ninety nine the mummy where they use gold mirrors I actually do that and also in national treasure. I think yes were they use mirrors at sunlight. That doesn't seem to actually be a thing but there's been a lot of people who have suggested that that that that idea yeah it. It doesn't seem to actually be true but it's a legitimate question to ask but the reality simply as torches and candles turns out you can you can can put a top on that shit you can you you know it's just it's not that polluting it. It really isn't but again if the audience is going going through at high speed then that really doesn't matter you know you're you're quickly going through this material so there's a lot of stuff gets brought up. The COLOSSI didn't get brought up lots of stuff about geometry the usual look how big the pyramids are yes. They're big. I'm impressed at the same time and we can link to this in the show notes. There are literally early images of Egyptians dragging giant frigging statues of the sort that are talked about in the fell there there are literally receipts of the Russian crews little receipts. I'm talking about the twitter we have. The receipts no actual four thousand five hundred forty three hundred year old receipts of construction crews that worked on the Pyramids and I believe there was a labor strike at one point over beer. I mean like I have to look into that. They did pay people in Beer. low low strength. Egyptian beer was better from about urological perspective than drinking water or something. I didn't mean to imply. They were drinking and drunken. Yeah right important to remember that before. What if your case germ theory alcohol alcohol was always you're safer bet right and and alcohol you know week beer goes back to at least twelve thousand years ago? There are not in Cape sites that have evidence of beer production is basically Bronco right all right so they then go to England. They gotTA sows Berry plane. They get the date of stonehenge wrong. They say it's two thousand years old. Actually more like forty five hundred well. stunners takes a while to build not because it's hard to build it because it gets modified things get replaced other things get built it. Yes it was build in an accretive manner manner over time and also things were moved to like. It's it's a living place for about a thousand years and it was an important regional centre but they bring up a lot of things Merlin Orleans flying things from Scotland. That's actually I think supposed to be Ireland about. I have to go double. Check that and again. I will point this out. The fact that they brought stonehenge into this episode road is the rare ancient aliens show that said that hey there's also a thing made by white. Pgn So happy to see the have really really was stonehenge inches. I is pretty much the one they do like they never do the Roman Coliseum. They never do cathedrals but it's just a few minutes later going to great Zimbabwe's. I don't I don't know I I'm sorry Blake. I don't think you mean Zimbabwe. I believe you mean Zim Zim Boo boo boo how they said it anyway. Bob Abu Simbel simply okay yeah memory yeah. There was a mess. They did a whole mess about. Did these hut billy. This is like literally like the when people talk about the drive by this was a drive by Les Shows Amazing thing and I could these mud hut dwelling people have really done this are was there a loss group of master builders on the African continent in the Bush lens of Southern Rhodesia the ruins of Simba meeting the heart of a lion it is constructed of brick shaped granite rocks all exactly alike because if produced in a factory twenty thousand tons of identical buildings they will lead to a height of over thirty feet to form walls which stood for thousands of years what Mason's trimmed and Pioli stones with such astonishing perfection they were the ancestors of Bushmen who straw huts around the ruins or members of a visiting group of master builders in the same way that they're implying thing that they had electric lights in two Tut's tomb. They're applying. These master. Builders are white. There's no mystery there yet yeah. It's a nice wall. It's a good wall so they keep going on then spend a lot of time at NAS at Easter Island at Easter Island. It's a law episode literally as I was. GonNa say I assume there. There's an insurgent yup sudden dryland and then it the last place it goes archaeologically is not Scott and if you know the NAS skylines of southern Peru from the first millennium ce again about one six eight hundred Si. They basically all the things you're used to. I will point out that they literally talk in the episode about you must have been in the air to make these and meanwhile they're panting from a camera that is obviously on the ground and they're showing you these things from the ground and you can just go to instagram and see people that visit and you can see the like there are no mountains for viewing. There absolutely are there. I show this every semester to my students. It's a map of the place where the FIGURA ones so. There's two kinds of Nasca lines the long geometrics those are the landing strips they are well. They're not Danny. Eh Even von Daniken eventually admitted they can't be because the soil there just wouldn't work that way yeah even he eventually said they're not airlines drips but then there's the Figura oh ones and if you look at a map of the figurative images they're all distributed near hilltops because people were. We're supposed to see him yeah with the magical technology of walking uphill. That's an important live omission that seems to still perpetuated over and over and over and over again. There's a lot of what is in here but that one is that such a cornerstone of their ideas that I think to to admit there's any weakness in it. Yeah I mean are they better viewed from above yeah. They are was the first person who found them on the ground. Yes like I is in the nineteen forty. If I remember correctly the first archaeologist explorer to find them was like I saw these things and then yes they were eventually seen from the air but they were not discovered from the air and they can be seen from the ground and also if you then build a frigging tower. That's twenty feet tall. They're seeing even better which is literally what they did with the camera and yeah it's one of those we're here with these people in this cargo cult who have never ever met anyone meanwhile you're like got a camera on them and like it's obvious they know what it is because they've met people before you know it's it's the same it's the same way if you're alone and doing this heroic exploration who's filming you out with the good example. I beloved movie goes. Watch Oh yeah. There's a scene at the beginning. That sort of if you're paying attention from a mechanistic perspective is supposed to be a fixed camera and then I apparently the BBC couldn't resist moving the camera to focus in on the action. Oh you're watching. It is supposed to be a fixed camera you suddenly you're completely lately. Oh this isn't real yeah so the whole episode ends on Carl Sagan that Carl L. Sagan Super Skeptic Carl Sagan who is awesome and he's Kinda salty in the episode where so Carl Sagan had actually been quite open to the idea of ancient astronauts in the early nineteen sixty s he published a paper and talked about various things about about looking at the myth of a one s which ties into the seven sages the Kalu of Sumer in Babylon in the Middle East of Culture Culture bringers of people that come from the ocean or the sky that bring writing and farming and civilization and all of these things and he and they're weird and he's like this. This is potentially what we should be looking for and then he looked at it for a few years and then decided yet now. There's there's no it's a great idea but there's no evidence evidence that it really isn't true he's in the episode in a big sweater very big sweater and he basically talk smack smack about the rest of the episode saying yes it's possible but there's not a smidgen of reliable evidence silence for any of this he also says straight up and this is why one lead us to the end that this is an example of giving a new technological coat too old religious ideas so that old time religion region with a new technological. Pinko Dr Carl Sagan is one of the directors of the Mariner Mission Exploring Mars and he has a special interest the possibilities of intelligent life in the universe. The question arises might there have been a visit to the earth in historical. All Times are a popular books on the subject It's an idea what people find exciting kind of scientific justification of theological belief these people would rather believe in any case it's kind of modern dress for old time religion but what about that is it. Is that possible or not. I can only say that you can't exclude the possibility but there is not a smidgen of evidence that is compelling. He pretty much says one ancient aliens is all about that. It's all about taking old myth and legend that have been cast as just literature just myth just whatever by Medani in the nineteenth and twentieth century and given a reality I mean literally at the beginning of Paranormal Television Carl Sagan's like and this is why all of this is just cultural. Yeah Yeah Yep turns out. It didn't help now but that this will not be the only time we run into that. I I think I think maybe I don't WanNa get too deep here in her for services. I think maybe one of the things that sort of implies that you've sipped out of I've honest investigation into some sort of religious movement is when all of the assertions defy all the attempts to explain right so like anything we can do to say well. That's not true. The resistance is not to find counter. Evidence is to say it's instead say the is to that that means you're they're not coming. Get different honesty inquire. They're coming at this well. I will say I will say this as much as I have been repeatedly comparing this chew ancient aliens in the present day. Hey Yeah there is no as far as I can tell zero. They're lying to you. There is no conspiracy era seeing this. There is no attacking mainstream science. Oh you mean that as they're describing the narrative they're not saying hey the sort of gatekeepers levers of knowledge in reality there in on a conspiracy. You're just saying that there is lying to us by the way I they're not. Nobody in the script is saying saying the truth being held back from right right whereas that's a good forty percent of an agent aliens episode is all the lies of that that mainstream dream science which of course you can see the obvious political ties him yeah that is not happening here. This is a hopeful we will understand these things scientists bringing these things to light. Oh my God we're exploring our extraterrestrial legacy and you got Brown and Got Eric von Daniken and they both have vence is the battle of the von's and they are working together to understand the ancient past. What what was it the remembering green the future yes yeah that that feels comfortable with the narrative here what I find interesting and I think this is going to be a theme. That's GonNa come up repeatedly in when we talk about the TV show in search of is that dark conspiratorial element is not cresent one could watch in search of and get an appreciation of science whereas if one watches modern paranormal TV offerings all all one will get appreciation of is grievance and conspiracy yeah. I think that's a good button. Which is why this is not in re ghost hunters or not in re ghost adventures or not in re expedition unknown because because that's a very different tone so I this has gone long? I think we're wrapping it up but I do want to point out that as much as we had a lot of smack to say about this there is a hopefulness. This is clearly being presented as part of the space exploration period that is literally going on at this time. People are literally going to the moon while this is happening. That's GonNa Change but this as the foundation of what becomes paranormal TV and then paranormal media is there's nothing before this really outside of publishing thing in any significant sense is hopeful and has that kind of twentieth century well well. What if that eventually will transform into. Here's the truth and that's we're not there yet. Yeah it'll be interesting because I don't remember from the actual TV series if it ever gets into that runs six picture seven seasons reineck sixties I will say I know that they cover Roswell. Roswell does get an episode awed and you see in Roswell is inherently conspiratorial but we're not there yet so let's just in this dark mark time let us grasp onto what little hopeful light so that is in search of ancient astronauts not an episode of in search of the TV show not ought not Leonard Nimoy rod surly but not onscreen. It's longer. This episode was longer. We apologize for it being that way but the the material but we're going to try to we're going to see how this evolves but we do want to and again we credit Rachel. Watch Star Trek for the idea of ratings. We are not going to have a sexiness rating because now to be fair. Nimoy in the first episode that we're GonNa talk about rocked a red sweater but we'll get back to that a red shirt and he had a certain flair to his hands also richer disconcerting because no one wants to die but but crediting Rachel Watches Star Trek they have ratings and then inspired us that we should have an entertainment rating and again this may evolve we may have more ratings and entertainment rating and a credibility rating and I think we're going to do this on a scale of one to ten at least for the moment so blake. What would you give this. What would you give this on entertainment. I'm trying to think about this terms. Of what would it be like if I wasn't who I am like. I have consumed so much of this material so I'm trying. Do you think about this from the becoming fresh fresh and I remember watching this yeah this time machine going back to nineteen seventy two as a kid when I when I saw this for the first time aired aired on television I was absolutely blown away at all these amazing mysteries and I would suspect I can't prove this but I would suspect this was one of the leading leaving reasons that when I got into school like when I got into the first grade when you are you talk about in search of the TV show or this this documentary. I'd never seen this before. I'd seen it. I saw it back in the seventies and I want to confirm yeah and of course they had commercials and whatnot but but it it led me it was one of those documents one of those things that I can see that led me to go to the library and look at the books right to the zero zero got got it right so in that sense. It didn't physically hurt me to watch this. I I hate so back then. I loved it now now. I'm I'm. I'm torn because there's so much I despise about it but entertainment I I'm. I'M GONNA give it a six like it was slightly more entertaining entertaining than I expected but it was not obviously glossy and it's not modern. It's very slow thing so I'm I'm trying to give it that sort of compared to other things of the time. This was novel right so it was interesting. There's nothing wrong with this into rod sterling talk. I enjoyed that having Carl Sagan pop up the end was a nice pallet. I enjoyed that will placed the fact that they gave him sort of the the last taste yeah yeah again. I don't think this is a very skeptical episode but no yeah they ended with him. I also I watched it once so we're not doing mystery science theater three times but probably going to watch these things at least certainly wants obviously and maybe twice watching the second time through you on double speed fell almost where one of my mind to be when. I put it back to normal. I was like wait surly. Did I put it on point five because he's talking very slow very slow. Yeah and that's his thing for your presentation for your consideration like ah slow talker and that's fine. He's a great. He's a great narrator a great right mazing writer amazing writer. I we were talking earlier. In the pre show he adapted plan of the what was the other one he adapted seven days may yeah yeah yeah okay yes seven days in. May he eighty seven days all right so you gave it a six yeah you're I am. I know I'm being generous. I know you are trying to take yourself outside of who you are now now now. I'd give it a three so yeah so I can't. I don't know if I can do that yeah but at the same time again I'm fast forwarding to the next episode were watching which I've watched and even though I have real problems at some of the science and the people involved it was engaging so my inner I want. I want the Loch Ness Monster Mr to be real I or I want to believe that. People are actually looking for that sort of thing so I do agree with that. That said I myself could not get past the fact that there were grievous errors. Oh there were yeah and this is not even grievous viscera and so this is a problem with being entertained for his credit by somebody say this all. It's not even grievous errors of like Oh. I'm American archaeologist with a doctorate in this Blah Blah Blah Blah. Blah is like map like map errors. Get a map you gotta go. I'm the one you need to know. I'm the Ma'am MHM those kinds of problems that said if I had to put myself in the shoes of not us us there was a lot of loving slow pictures of of like Egyptian monuments along plot the images of Mesoamerican stuff frankly worth that good. It's like how can I shoot the temple of the feathered serpent to look bad like that happened spend repeatedly how can I how can I like. POLENTA is one of the most beautiful myocytes and they made. It look like it wasn't well-made and I don't. I don't think this is just that it was translated from German film. I think the original probably had these problems and I'm not even talking about film grain or Quality Blah Blah Blah. I get that but you you you are so you're taking out any technical yes it's. I'm not even talking as a scholar it just just it was slow at parts at then went to fast that said I could easily. I have had conversations with people that have said things again like our raiders of lost Ark that I probably think came from here so this clearly engaged people. It did not engage me. I found it infuriating in places and it was worked to get through so I don't know I guess I'd give it a four out of ten and that's a generous four yeah because my by six is super junior. The Nas Oscar's section was I guess well shot the NAS. Ca Section felt well shot and I think for a lot of people that was kind of the takeaway. I think for a lot of people that was their first exposure. The Egyptian stuff in the Maya stuff was so much worse and so yeah for so that that's my that's my entertainment. Let me I yeah I did not enjoy this yeah. That enjoyment is a different category. I Yeah I didn't it didn't hurt. My Eyes Hurt my brain what what about credibility. We're so credibility I put credibility now. I begin to ask you as an archaeologist. I'm trying to ask S. could you imagine as an average citizen if possible or maybe I don't know I think credibility this actually does have to be. We're in our skins. Okay then if that's the case. Let's guess it's like it's like a two yeah like there are so many errors. There are so many errors. There's so many things that I know are not true now some of these things for the time for the time. I would give it a credibility of three or four what we know now. I think this is actually how we should approach this in the future. Get where evolving folks for the time three or four because there were still huge errors but there were a lot of things that we critique now that we didn't entirely understand from a now perspective too yeah like it's not aliens made a treaty with fish against dinosaurs. That's an ancient aliens episode by the way folks. That's a real episode. They literally said that I'm not making that up. I'm not making that up. They literally sale candidates because they made a treaty with aliens. It's just sink in Christ but from from a time perspective I would say four from a now perspective a two. It's not remotely credible but they are showing showing you real things and get the feeling. Some of the errors are not omission. They're just we don't know what we're talking talking about their mistakes rather than omissions which I guess is better even though everyone got paid but yeah I know too much about it now right so I'm not even sure I'd give it a to this point. It was nice to have Sagan in there but maybe I'm GONNA have to go like a one because now at the time when I was a kid I remember thinking. Oh this is fascinating. The whole world's GonNa Change because has people people are going to have to look into this stuff. There's all this evidence clearly if we've been visited by aliens that is important because what happened to them. Where did they go you you know. Are they still here or are they coming back. These are all really interesting questions and now I'm older and science has moved on and I've read a lot and I just realized there's basically nothing to this stuff. You feel more betrayed. I feel very betrayed and I specifically feel betrayed by Eric Von Daniken and his publisher publisher because he even he knew better on a lot of this stuff. I mean I I don't know how much genuine mystery there was at the time or how much people at the time were doing like we are and going. Can't you people look at a book and see this is not true. I think that's actually a really interesting point. Mike and maybe this should have been earlier and that's not everquest at it in my own trajectory on the stuff. I was actually thinking about this for other reasons recently. I my entry way was not like I am an archaeologist like it's my profession. You know I teach it. I studied. I do it my entry way and all this. This weirdness was not that it probably initially cryptology and then ufology and those have been the things I I found most interesting. Since I've actually kept archea until relatively recently I kept archaeology Seattle like when I taught my first course on all of these sorts of in search of topics of ghost hunters and crypt zoology and and then there's a third one forgetting in two thousand and seven at Tulane University. I we didn't do new ancient aliens. We didn't do all that because I thought oh well but I do real archaeology. That's just a whole other thing that was that was not on my radar and I'm sure it wasn't some senses senses teens. I became love craftsperson and all these other sorts things and that's clearly part of it but I didn't have that buyin when I was young like bigfoot bigfoot moloch ness monster and UFO's and even like ghosts and poltergeists. I was just sitting in that but the whole NAS car lines. I was aware of it but I didn't really have any emotional investment so I don't feel betrayed by any of this from youth in the way. I do and other things so we've got actually there are two other full hour long documentaries that came out before in search of but I believe next week we're going to start looking at every. I started the show. This is already that you belong yeah but but you can see what we're calling in research of that. This is a good indicator that if you do a little digging dogging it also it reminds me of hitchens razor which is what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence but I think if you look out the window you'll see that people don't dismiss what can be without evidence well and that would be by rejoinder to the Hitchens is that what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed missile evidence in the sense of academic discussion. You can't dismiss because it doesn't have evidence. If a lot of people socially believe in it then socially you can't dismiss it from a research perspective of physics or what actually happened in the past sure from a why do people care about these sites. Why do people care about science. You cannot dismiss. It and I think that's a huge mistake. That is made by many academics mix. They're like well. I know this is wrong. I don't really care if anybody else does therefore. I'm GonNa keep on going on doing what I do well. That's not how the world works six yeah. It is not clearly it's clearly not how the world work and I think that's why in search of important it is the beginning of Paranormal Komo media and that's why I think in research of is going to what why we're doing it. We enjoyed this as younger people but we now recognize its importance for good and for bad and for other on where we are now and we're going to continue to hit those notes as well as talk about bell-bottoms and since music and we're hanging paintings in the dark background. This is going to be good but in preparation for next week. I'M GONNA go water my plants and see if they have anything like the idea. Let's let's tease. What next week's is next. Week's episode or next time episode is in search of other voices and if you've listened in to all of us you might think oh other voices. They're going to be talking about if you've listened to archaeological fantasies or Montauk oh that's going to be that's going to be the ascended. Masters like nope actually plants. It's GONNA be plants. It's an episode about talking to plants. Hey Hey TV producer. I've I've got an idea for a TV series. It's GonNa be all kinds of weird stuff strange of science and Exploration and Weird Monsters and aliens but why don't we started with plants chance to talk about plants now. I'm going to be fine. I think the the enthusiasm or whatever you here in our voice is because uh neither of US realize that the first episode of in search of was was was talking to plant. It was what here's spoiler. It's actually you better than you think it is. It's actually better than you think but we will save that for another investigation. You've been listening to in research off breath. This is the pilot episode of season one of our podcast each week. We'll be watching a discussing a new episode from the television show in search of the actual series episodes so it's a much shorter than this pilot so this was an outsized episode to kick us off but his record this we already have quite a few episodes in the can and I hope you'll enjoy hearing them as much. Let's just jabeen. I have been enjoying recording them. We're just getting started but if you like this show and wants to support us you can donate to the cause at Patriotair Dot com forward slash in research of we also have a facebook page and a twitter account at in research of links to that will be in the show notes on behalf of Jeb Cardi Cardi Myself Blake Smith. Thank you for listening This has been a monster house presentation.