20 Episode results for "Dr Sanders"

Using your core strengths for well-being with Dr. Sandra Scheinbaum

The Toxin Terminator

49:35 min | 10 months ago

Using your core strengths for well-being with Dr. Sandra Scheinbaum

"Welcome to the Toxin Terminator. Helping people to restore and renew their health by removing the toxins from the home, and their lives join in industry, thought leaders help you understand the physical and emotional effects. He's product can have on you and your family and the safe alternative you can use to remove the hidden toxins for renewed health now. Please welcome your host. The Toxin Terminator Herself Amy Carlson. I am so excited for the release of my new book that talks, and Terminator Binding Focus Energy and renewed health by removing hidden toxins. If you want to get your hands on the book, I be part of my pre launch campaign by going to my website, www dot a. m. eaten. C. A. R. S. N. DOT COM that Amy Carlson Dot com and you can sign up, so you'll get your copy for only ninety nine cents unwelcome back to the show everyone today. My guest is Dr Sanders Shine Blom I. I am so ecstatic to have her here. She is the founder and CEO of Functional Medicine Coaching Academy which is in collaboration with the Institute for Functional Medicine. She is the leader in the field of health coaching education in education by doing my research, I? Really I. Think is her calling her passion something. She's truly really speaks to her heart. She keeps kind of going back to it. She was a clinical psychologist for over thirty five years of being an expert in blending the physical relaxation techniques with positive. Psychology, she actually takes that into this health coaching. Alessandra as well. We're going to hear more about that today. She taught psychology of eating and mind body medicine courses. She's run clinics for treating attention, deficit, disorders and panic anxiety. Will my gosh are those not all things we could use today in our world. We are in She also has three books out she isn't. She Has Functional Medicine Coaching Stop Panic attacks in ten easy steps in how to give CRANSTON skills to stop panic attacks so today we're really going to focus in on how the mind really influences our body, how we can use our strengths to pine being, and also how we can experience true joy in our daily lives using food exercise in meaningful connections, medicine Dr Sandra. Schon shined on one so glad to have you on the show. Thank you. That you for that wonderful introduction is a pleasure and honor to be here and speaking to your audience to a thank you so much will we are all about the toxins and removing toxins out of our lives and boy? Are we getting inundated with them in today's world, aren't we? Absolutely. said it. is a crazy time. I it's funny. Because I was just doing a live video with a friend of mine, we are huge falls into biohacking, and we are really talking about ways to reduce stress and anxiety. I think that's Kinda on top of mind. Awareness right now and learning techniques to really lower that anxiety levels, so many of us are feeling. obselete league. New Yes Absolutely so I love hearing how you were trained in psychology, but then you. Kinda win into the world of functional medicine as a psychologist in top to me a little bit about how that was. Because this is we. We gotta remember. This is back in a time. Where you that mind. Body connection wasn't really being talked about less. It was not so when I started. I first started in. Theory Education I thought I wanted to be a teacher in. That was back in the late sixties. Seventies I ended up going into learning disabilities and taught classroom totted. A college for four years and I was always focusing. On this idea that we can damage stress that time he did. Talk about stress management so I did relaxation tapes for kids in. A lot of workshops for teachers about how they could reduce their stress how they teach their classroom. How kids how to reduce stress? And at the time as I started, going into clinical psychology got doctored in that field. There really wasn't even a name for mind. Body medicine talked about things like apply cycle physiology I got into biofeedback and found that Wo- If I learned how to raise the temperature in my fingertips, which believe it or not you can do could release of ten degrees even more that that can be very effective. I stress level. This decreased a knife physiological stress level. I should say or I was also able to control things. Like when I got a headache, and so I went on I urge teach that to a lot of people in my practice, but this idea that the mind could influence. The body was still pretty strange and so. I just studied more. About that and I had always been interested in nutrition as well so I started taking a lot of courses, they've utrition and then found the Institute for Functional Medicine, Nate. Train providers practitioners mostly doctors, medical doctors and I took all of their trading forces in fact was in the first class to be certified so I am is for functional. Medicine Certified Practitioner and as a psychologist was very interested in how to eat to end. HOW MUCH SLEEP YOU'RE GETTING! And how much movements throughout Roger Day? Although six really influence mood, influence your exiled levels. Bunt? The field of psychology was really not that interested in this mind body, medicine or root cause functional medicine still much more focused on May Latte disease. And how are we? GonNa treat it, so we're GONNA die now somebody is bipolar for example in then what medication or what type of psychotherapy might be helpful for what you've been diagnosed with, and that process has to do? Is there something wrong with you were going to label it amend? We're going to give you a treatment whether it's talk. Therapy or medication depressants for example. Ryan was focused. For All of my career. I again long before it had a name was. What's right with you? That leads us to the field of positive psychology, which really started round mid-nineties, Martin Seligman and others started stunning things like. SHAPE. What makes people have a life well lived. What does that really mean? And so they came up with this idea of character strengths, and that's what I chose to dive into focus on, and so I put together all of these components mind, body, medicine, positive psychology, looking at what's right with you, not what's wrong as well as the basic tenants of functional medicine where you're going to the root cause, not just diagnosing and treating a symptom right and put that together because I thought. Wouldn't it be great if we could train? Army of health coaches. That world need badly to go out and just inspire people teach people of that he can take control of their health is they put together all these things, and so that's what I've been doing for the last five years in a time I was sixty five. My friends were retiring. Colleagues were retiring, and I have a lot of energy in a lot of zest and get excited by having a mission in my life, and this was now my mission to train health coaches. Who can be the best suited to really go and connect with others because the medical profession so wonderful and I am not saying in any way that they should not be highly valued. They can only do so much, and they have limited resources. This really acute care. But what about the people who are overweight to are type? Two diabetic who have a high toxic load who might be living with? For example, this really helps them. And d their personal cheerleaders, they make theory. Difficult changes overcome obstacles, Nets coach right I love that because I really do see now. Of course, that's where I'm at in that that field of really helping people look at some of the other elements that we don't get out of traditional medicine in order to improve our overall lights, and vitality and I love that you look at what's good. You know and you take that philosophy. I was just listening to the. Love is medicine project by Rasi Barry and It was so so good and she was talking about. Medicine teaches us were broken and that we need to be fixed. Word really not and not really ties into. Some of the thoughts that I have the emotions are neither good nor bad. Because when I was growing up I, was taught with there were very much good feelings and bad feelings in good emotions in Batam oceans. You know we didn't cry. Because that was a bad emotion and we didn't get angry and. And I love that our body can be the same way that you know. We're not broke into to be fixed we. We just had things that we can approve upon eight. Exactly. And particularly in the field of psychology. Something broken in I of as a psychologist for so many years in one of the things I specialized, it was working with children as well as adults with attention deficit disorder, and I was an expert at the time in testing cycle neurological, asking me I would have kids come in, and it was like really hours and hours of IQ testing, more shock and personality testing in achievement were looking diet, no seeing what's wrong with them and the school batteries, and so now i. had this This this? Rose filing cabinets my office with all these folders of all his kids particularly that I in a so I went through. The process is I. wanted to make sure they were well shredded over the time that I needed to save those records so I needed to dispose of them in a safe way, so I was shrank them and I have to look at some of those haberler reports that I've been riddance and I shudder ivory, oh my gosh, and I was focusing that for judicial way. How many kids were settled when this label attention sorter that really divined there be in special ed had special objectives for them, and yes, there is a place. To break down with their processing disorder and look at the best way to help them but one. Yes, instead of looking at what's wrong with them. We had addressed once. Ryan was up, so kids with add. They're super creative, and maybe instead of labeling them as restless. We Call Zach an energy and And so on what happened? What would have been a different perspective that way and so? The the basis of positive psychology and smart Paris rights, so you're focusing on the idea that we have central greatness within us, and what they did of the people who were researching heretics rights, they founded. There's twenty four four traits, and they're there. No matter what where you are in the world where you are, you're in terms of how old you are across cultures. They studied religion, philosophy, psychology, and the wording been different, but socially there early strengths that we have gratitude home, hewer, spirituality, bravery love of learning jury. And this these are the backbone. These are we all have them. As we strengthen them, that leads to a life that is well lived with positive emotion. I love that so you you talk about on using those those character string way that individuals can. Is there like that you say everybody has them all. Do we have all twenty four? In certain ones are stronger within than the others. You got it. Oh! We have all twenty four. It's like we're dealt with Decca cars than all these traits cates, come more naturally. Moser your signature strikes. Sample I have always might might not strength is appreciation of beauty and excellence, so I'm always saying things like I lost at this so beautiful. I am in awe of of beauty whether it's nature, natural beauty like sunset of or just missed, but also. Clothing like I would even when I was a little girl, and I would go to the movies, CDs, ballgowns or Fall Love. Decorations and. Of Art deep appreciation. And that's where my top stress. Zest excitements log at sitting on a bouncy ball and I of That was add. Fan So Jerry acities strength love learning I've always been going on taking more classes in loving to learn about things. So. There are some other strikes that could be shown in one situation, and not not so for example I have a lot of trees I'm very clashes. When I go out of specially is I'm old. I'm seventy and so I'm like the twice like always the safe. This is called the mother of all virtues because it is, it's like your mother, saying easy to take sweater when you go out, but in other situations I might not be as pruned might because of my deep appreciation of beauty and excellence I might spend more for salty, the a piece of clothing, for example, because I'm very attuned to the the quality of the workmanship Renzo. Notice own. This one is pretty shoddy so I'm GonNa go for the more expensive wealth as balancing prudence I for example, a self regulation is another strength, so may be curious. How do you know what are your strengths is so? So the functional achieved cabinet, we work very closely with a wonderful nonprofit research organization and its Zia VI a you can go to see a- character dot org and they have a free assessment, and it's very well validated, and you can find out. Your raking now I WANNA question because we focus on what's wrong with us. So what do people do? They'll take the assessment and they'll immediately say oh. Wait of gratitude was my lowest straits that that that's not good I. Doubt Nets Really WanNa focus on celebrating our signature strengths and know that we can build up some of the ones that just meet there lower ranking, so our strengths number twenty, three, twenty, four ninety. That just means it don't come as naturally. Toss example humor. Maybe some people, a really really good at telling jokes. He's a really funny guy. We have to work at. It's see you go to the character dot org. You can take that test cool thing as they have a version for kids and a great. If you're home, schooling your kids. If there had them take this survey, and then you do strange plot, let strange news outlets. Would you like to us today? You can set an intention there's. Ways that you can build mindfulness into the Su- become very mindful of your strengths, we teach people when were training them to the coaches to zoos the their ranks when they're coaching others and to help others find those strikes within them and use them. Many of them are highly tied to physical welby one in particular that I love His forgiveness when you forgive, what does that do physiologically and it's. Really highly connected as his hope, hold than in the immune system are tied together free sample mole I like that. That that resonates with me. A few are person that has I'm just trying to think of another word to use for sold You know your more optimistic type person annual are always. Good and see the good and know that things can and will be good again then you're not putting that stress on the system to to get that oxidative stress in and Compromised at use of that's wonderful I love that, and what a great tool for parrot! I I'm thinking of. This is a grandparent. You know I wanNA. Know all my grandkids. I have ideas you know in in being with them knowing some of their character, but I think what a great tool so that you can really build into those those start out course drinks with those children. That your Lovin helping you know come come into adulthood. Absolute absolutely well. How did he views your sprays today? What strikes could digit notice in someone else when you have challenge out when times are rough like our coaches asked, people will crown. How did you deal with this? In the past example, the strength of perseverance where you don't give up, keep going. I when I did it of university years ago, I used to teach strikes by healthy people watch movies, the classic movies that really resonate with US wizard of is. It's a wonderful life for example. There iconic movies because we see. Are the. People who are in those movies are overcoming. Are. They're not giving up their showing doors. These GUETTA is or sense of spirituality in the sense of a forgiveness gratitude of movies like ground on Day love that movie, because he discovers gratitude off at somebody's journey, where they weren't aware of it of that strength in the beginning, and then by the end of the movie We're celebrating with them because they've turned her life around by old suit, express gratitude for example or show love. That is I i. just love that you know and I almost envision like flipping a switch. You know flipping a switch to look instead of looking at what you perceive to be your weaknesses to always be looking at those positives. My, my husband and I. You know some years ago I was really realizing how how the power of our words are so powerful, what we speak to ourselves even inside of our head before they even get out of our lips, and I had a lot of negativity inside my hat. And, so we instituted the stop drop and roll. And I literally would stop drop in role when because it was my way of stopping that negative pattern, and we would giggle and laugh, and then I, could you know identified in have to do that for a very long time that it was something that I could do I'm a very I need big physical things. You know to make that change I. I just loved that. Flipping the switch of a weakness to strength yawn negative to a positive I think asking tastic. Absolutely will as you were talking about. That stopped the role a while. Mine Mentor, who is Dr Albert Ellis would be proud of you. So Humus the basic originate airline with in back of cognitive behavioral therapy, and that's where all that Changing your negative self talk. Something else comes from, and it's really what you're doing is changing. What is inaccurate because the self talk is not accurate rights loss. It's a false narrative. In so when you say I'm awful, I'm horrible a terrible person. It's not accurate. Now. Shift to something that is rational is okay I. Needed mistake. And how what what are you GonNa do to overcome it on the state because I am human like everybody else for example. And so you ration. You have a scientific way of thinking now Byron. It's a wonderful process when you go through it and one of the reasons, it's wonderful and so effective is because reducing physiological response. The words are so powerful whether you're expressing verbally, or you're thinking on their part of your self talk, but just thinking like Oh, I can't do anything right. This is awful. I can't stand when challenge those words of those statements, you are then creating a different physiological response, you are calming, the onomic nervous system instead of light triggering and setting off. Alarm systems right well. You can even see all your body shift. You conceal your shoulders relax. You can field you in the conical back, and you know you get into that kind of you know grounded center Posher when you can do that I love that -solutely a and I love when you can do it with somebody else, so for many people is been so challenging because your your home, your with loved ones, but often the. People we care the most about are those that we can get into the most intense arguments and a problems with. And so we've shifted from a time. When people were away from each other a lot going to work and going out to of social activities now confined, and so the tappers of people are, there's a lot of conflict that has been going on, and so when I noticed do that. A husband like what's wrong with the be should should be doing this. This is I can't stand this sub, or I can't on this about him, and then if I focus on okay, it's this particular behavior, but I will focus was there a time when he did something that was so caring? Wife focused on what are. What really matters. What are the things that draws together? And how can I let go of? This is holding holding onto it, helping or hurting me and so going through a process of of letting go of it. In, you know in the grand scheme of things what really matters? You know it. It boils down to. Do you WANNA. Be Right. Wrong are happy. Yeah, I love that question. It's one of the key questions in coaching that we train health coaches to ask of clients what matters most or you want your health, and when you go there, those are actually called positive emotional tractors, just talking about it visualizing what matters most which we see the greatest joy which you want out of your life. It creates a profound relaxation response, nervous system, and so that's what allows you to star today with well. How are you GONNA get there. And what would you be willing to do to get to that endpoint of what really matters to you? Did you know that many of us have symptoms of toxin overload in our bodies, but we don't even know it. Signs of toxic could be headaches. Fatigue, insomnia skin issues like acne and psoriasis and hormonal imbalances, and the list just keeps on going, but the problem. My Hat and I'm sure many of you have had is. How can you know how well you're managing your toxic risk? That's why I've put together free. Toxic risk assessment that will help you discover what products might be. Be Contributing to your toxic symptoms, and what small changes you can make to detox and cleanse your health after you take the assessment, you're GonNa get my free toxic free home shopping guide. This is the easy button for finding the right products to shop for. These are the products I've been using in my home and the products I give my stamp of approval on. Take your free assessment now at Amy Carlson Dot Com to get on the path of detoxing and cleansing your help. So one of the things you were talking about how? When I was introducing you you. How To stop panic attacks in ten steps so is. Do you have I? Don't know if you WANNA go through ten. Are you know get the book? Guys get the book and read the book on it. Do, you help like some tops. Three things that because people have sometimes can just. We don't have necessarily a reason to feel overwhelmed, but we certainly can get there right. We can really just feel that in especially in times like today where we are operating in such different modality now so what are some top three things that really help us kind of stay in? I like the. Calm that also than the physical body you know remains healthy so that we're not. garnishing Moore ill-will happening tour physical. Sure while I wrote this book I. Know This subject quite well because I used yet. Panic attacks I was in my twenties debilitating where I thought I was dying. In fact I. We call a paramedic Seta. Take me to the hospital. Because I thought I, literally thought I was dying. And if the time you know in psychotherapy, you could spend years trying to figure out. Why and what are your childhood? Yeah I knew. My father had died when I was nine. I always associated. Something was wrong with my heart like heart condition so the first sign ben I got a little twinge at auto and having a attack wait. It's really happening unsealing. EST Down my arm. I can't breathe. I'M GONNA? Pass out so it's the sense of appending. In a pass out you. You can't breathe in the ultimate undying. Second. I I'm going to interrupt there because you sits of the. Did your father die from a heart attack or heart disease? No lashley. He had romantic fever, but he was a child in those days the Renault antibiotics, so he had results they would call up at heart, and why he was rejected from draft in in our world. War Two, and so it had nothing to do with genetics on, but I always associated. A VAT and when I was little those days, your pediatrician would make a home visit sick and I remember I was like three or four years on. Remember this doctor saying to my math. Oh, she has a heart murmur, so you know. While that stayed with me like I had this heart murmur when I was damaged in south of survived, knew that that was behind it, but it didn't stop a panic attack. It was when I started learning self-regulation hiding. Stop a panic. Attack will number one. There disordered breathing I kind of laughed at breathing is now called breasts. Work of when really it's not work at all. You actually watch baby breathe well. They don't to brass work there. Just watching their little valley's going in and out of they know what to do, and so on I worked I worked with thousands of people with panic attacks. Member you. You knew how to breathe when your infant. In men is like. Get stressful that natural belly breathing pattern than you'll see if you watch A. A baby breeze when Wyatt but then. You start to take. A chance breath, and often that becomes a bitch a-all, and when you're starting to panic, you're thinking you're not getting enough. Air Soon may take more may inhale more than you exhale. Sometimes people are like deer. Headlights are not even breathing at all. Basically so all this can lead to uncomfortable feeling, so step number one is. You start to slow your breathing, but often like if you're in the midst of panic, even like. Focusing on your breathing is GonNa, make you feel worse because you're from the site so now. They're saying that you want to focus on. Is, what else are you doing? And so, it's not just taking breath. Valid what we call I'm still do my breath work. That may not. But what if took a breath as you exhale, you imagine you inhale. Soon than a feel better in soon as the key word, we, we get into the panic mode. It's like turning on a home alarm. Incident. It's an instant reaction. Because the bodies acting intelligently things that there's real danger doesn't know in until it's so vast you tell yourself findings. Yeah, it knows how to function. It's the danger right gain on, but you also realize sped. Relaxation is a slow process, so you start to sing soon. I'm going to feel better sued my body's GonNa. Come down. You can also help it along imagining at happening. And so that could be changing words having some peaceful imagery could imagine us stormy sea going to call. It has to be your images the other thing you're also doing a tremendous Alana muscle braces just like just letting go and times exaggerating squeezing then releasing. Often what is quite effective is distraction, and that doesn't mean to of the past like I'm just GonNa turn on the TV or even read a book. You might be looking paragraphs, but you're focused on. How Badger feeling but do something that's you know is going to be guaranteed to get you focus elsewhere so. alwyn follow a complicated recipe. If you like to cook, I mean something that's going to really pay attention knitting I love to knit or crochet or something where you have to pay attention to what you're doing. That would be something else of. Having having something years ago. I worked with a woman. Who is having severe debilitating panic attacks on shoes, the well into her eighties time, and she would call me up and say oh. I should have to go to the hospital. I'm on the I'm feeling so bad. I'm I'm really feeling horrible, unruly panicky. GonNa. Make it and I would say to her. Okay. What closet are a big house wet closet? You need to clean out right now is okay. Well I'll go to this one or this drawer. And I said okay. Call me. In an hour. Sandra. Got? So involved in I had these buckets of what I was going to give away and what I was going to give. The kids said jam feeling good now. Why because she got distracted in our minds can only hold two as I used to tell people like we have to pals of laundry in our minds to were story either darks or lights, and we want the are either safety or danger. Our braved sorts. It's either state injure like a not feeling well this. Awful, those negative thoughts we talked about earlier that are toxic or its safety gets the. Let's say the white pile that we're going to wash. Want to have more of those soon. I'll feel better. I've been here before. I felt like this before a, it's just my mind like the best thinking. I'm not safe, and it's just by body on producing all of these sensations trying to keep me safe, because that's what spider flights aren't year. You're basically you're getting ready to fight or run away. The body thinks you're in trouble, so you get more in the white pile like soon. I'm GONNA steal us. I love that I remember as a young adult. I had anxiety attacks in I actually sell mine like I thought I had Hartberg Or I had also are something like that's what mine was crazy. What you? You know what your body will do, and how it will feel with that, but it was it was. There was nothing physically wrong with me. It was just an anxiety attack. I know full well how that is! Let me ask you this question I got a couple of questions for you is. How do you feel like? Are there particular toxins. In our everyday lives that are really affecting our emotional state. So I think there's a two levels okay. Probably the most powerful toxins that we produce. Our, our toxic thoughts as we. Our words how we lived something. Create a whole case so when you are doing a detached, he wanted to do. In terms of getting rid of the toxic thoughts, what doesn't serve you? So, so that's one and the other is a toxic soup. So perhaps we can handle one mud with we look at how many pudding together so we're GonNa have a little lifesaver. We're GONNA. Add a little bit of the. Chemicals that are. In our makeup in our skin care in our plastic shower curtain in the air, we breathe the water. We drink in so humilate. Are we retake in all of those and put them all together, and that's a pretty heavy burden, and so we want to focus on ways that what end this also comes from cognitive behavioral therapy. We control what we can and we let go of what we can't, and so we may may able. Able to make some choices in terms of the products we buy, and a where what we have control over, and then there's a point where there are certain things that were exposed to that. We can't control because we have to live in the world, I think this is going to be increasingly challenging for those of us who have a high level of awareness of the chemicals in hand sanitizer the chemicals in the disinfectant for example. And we're going to be bombarded and if we focused, too, if we we can be paralyzed with fear never. Leave our homes. But even in our homes we can't control. It feels there is a mess in. There's of the five G., and so we can get so carried away that we will. We will cause more stress right right. By the worry and anxiety that we produced so it's finding that balance of. Trusting that, it's level. Our bodies are intelligent and know how to to. How can we detox? How can we find the right foods? The right supplements, perhaps the right ways to detox. And how do we balance that with the unaware consumer being aware of these to protect ourselves I a beautiful beautiful answer because I just just today maybe an hour before we got on this interview, submitted my manuscript for my and one of the pillars. I talk about in the toxin, Terminator. Terminator is mental I really think that's the big one and you hit it on the nail. There are so many environmental toxins, and it's that toxic sue and we were not going to be able to avoid them off. So what can we? What can we control? What can't we control and and I think when we get into a good mental state and emotional state were going to do so much better in the long run, even if we physically have the toxins involved. Exactly because the truth is we don't know and there's a lot that we may shake were doing. And yet we may be harming ourselves so for example. There was a report that was released about collagen protein. And I don't know if you saw that, but they drank a tested a lot of these found. Lo and behold there's cadmium. There's others have meddlesomeness and one of the brands that I liked was listed. Putting in my smoothie almost every. Way It has high levels of cadmium so here I was doing something that I thought was positive now I have that awareness. But how many other things am I doing that I? Don't have a wariness of and what are the implications that again it leads to what what how much can we really controlling may think we're choosing products or foods that are good for us in than we find out. Wait a minute. They're not so. The research is constantly changing how things are tested, so there's you know there's a lot that we're not aware of that. We could be taking in and then once we are aware that. We may want to avoid it, but what if we chanted? Can we prevent the anxiety from creeping in? Control these things just have dishes little circle, isn't it? Where do you feel like your Where do you project out? You'll then align this positive psychology for many many years. And where do you project that incoming upcoming years? Things are going to move towards. Do you see certain things in the future? So I think we're seeing gains in. Looking at this racing changes in terms of. Some watch navigational curriculum I think that as parents are home-schooling now and a when kids go back to school, there are certain if realizing that they have gifts to share, Karen May, they may not WanNa go back. They may have seen the benefit of getting out in teaching their kids. Some life skills maybe were in the kitchen, cooking together or a they were real gardening or something that navy. They wouldn't have done a in previous years when our lives were structured, kids are in school and camp and so many different extracurricular activities so hopeful that we're seeing that, and maybe they'll be. A movement more towards the. Acceptance may maybe as people are being more reflective and focusing more on gratitude, being more appreciative comes from the more mindful, and sometimes when you're deprived of something in the now you have back. It's a deeper awareness of Gee I. DIDN'T I overlook? Really aware of what's so good. So that can certainly certainly happen. I do want to point out though I. Think sometimes we get hung up on positivity and there's a dark side to that. Because realistically there are emotions that are not positive. They are their sadness in its. There's feelings of anger or example and fear, and so it's not like. Oh, I can't feel that have to be positive. Positive psychology is not happy. Algae positive psychology is really focusing on a realistic view. Ride the world's. Knowledge ing that there are tragedies, there are bad things that happen and coming away with a deep sense of meaning and purpose in life, a lot of the work of Viktor Frankl man's search for meaning. And it comes down to having meaning and purpose in your life, and that often happens community love. I love that when you know community, the one of those words that we're just now getting back into right you know our community was just our little family, and if you didn't have a family, you didn't have community other than on lie. so I like that yet that yeah, it's is the acceptance of life on life's terms that we live in this world. That does have bad. I don't even like calling it bad things like you said I. I totally understand that we're. We're coming towards the end of our time together. This is just been absolutely beautiful. You are just a well also knowledge and I enjoy everything that we've been talking about obviously. Is there some final thoughts that you'd like to lead the listeners with today? So there is an old saying that I. love and it's what's real in the mind is real body. And so if you picturing gloom and doom, and it's hoped listen, it'll never get better than that becomes your physiological reality, and that affects your immune system every cell. Acknowledged that and so shifting, you're thinking away. Focusing on what matters most key question and focusing on hope and. Also humor, being able to laugh in finally, there's some a saying that comes from recent off Broadway. Musical called Mo Jalen, which I was heavily involved in Knox. My daughter was so cool writer, and it is a that remember who you are is what you do when my hands you a pile of Poop, and it sung by Kyle Poo and I love because it is so true, and so it's when you are experiencing hardship and loss and experienced failure in the all seems like there's no way out. That's really how determines who are where use US character strengths, and you get together with your community. Use Prayer in us. Gratitude and everything that you of that is good about life, but particularly perseverance and bravery. I absolutely loved that. How can our listeners get a hold of you? What is is? Are you on social media? Do you hope website? Yes, you can go to Functional Medicine Coaching da or our. FACEBOOK is Optional Medicine Coaching Academy. Or instagram at functional men, coach or personally I'm at Dr Sandy. That's S. A. N. D. I. It's G. R. as saying the I and I. also point out that now is his never been a better time for people who feel their mission. They're calling is to help. People Find Health and health. Coaches of field is exploding in so. I would be honored to serve anybody who is liked to become a health coach. Perhaps John Side I absolutely love that in your institution, the the Functional Medicine Coaching Academy Ucar also sponsor a podcast. You WanNa give the listeners. What that podcast is. That podcast is called. WHAT THE FUNK! F. and see and it's because it's about functional medicine, but it's an entertaining way. So we explore health education a, but it is also bringing in entertainment, immoral lighthearted elements. And I love that Dr Sandy Shine Bom, im soul honor to have you on the show and share all your infinite wisdom with us. Thank you so very much, thank you. Amy I'm honored to be with you. It's been a pleasure. That's all for this episode of the Toxin Terminator and we hope we've helped. You removed hidden toxins in your life for new health. If you're looking to continue your journey towards full rejuvenation, reach out to amy directly by visiting amy, Carlson, dot, com or your own one on one chat session as well as your free toxic risk assessment. That's A. M E and Dot Com and remember you are just one small change away from renewed health.

Institute for Functional Medic Amy Carlson Dot Com US Amy Carlson Ryan Dr Sandra headache Amy Dr Sanders Shine Blom CEO of Functional Medicine Coa C. A. R. S. N. DOT Alessandra Schon biohacking
Medical Documentation with Dr. Harjinder Sandhu of Saykara

Voice First Health

19:57 min | 1 year ago

Medical Documentation with Dr. Harjinder Sandhu of Saykara

"I'm dr terry fisher. A physician and voice technology futurist voiceovers technology is rapidly becoming the operating system of our lives and it will completely revolutionized the way we experience healthier. Let's talk voice. Hey there and welcome to this week's episode of voice i health it's terry fisher here and today i m live at voice summit data. This is being recorded is july twenty fourth and i have a special interview interview because there are so many people here in the voice for space and in particular. I am interviewing the c._o. Of sekara dr hard gender sandu in say cara is a company that is tackling the issue of medical documentation. <hes> i had the opportunity to interview ryan plash one of <hes> dr sanders colleagues <hes> a little while back on the podcast but today wanted to take advantage of this opportunity to hear a little bit about some of the developments with the company and if he could be very interested good to hear about how they are tackling this very important problem so it gives me great pleasure to introduce you to dr sandu all right so it's a real real pleasure to welcome dr ginger sandu onto the podcasts. Thanks so much for being here was a pleasure terry. Thank you for having me on well. I had the the opportunity to interview. Call yours ryan <hes> a little while back on the podcast and it's great to be able to finally meet you in person. I've heard a lot about you and you're doing some incredible things with sarah and we're gonna get into all that but maybe first of all i can get you to introduce yourself and let listeners know a little bit about who you are sure so i'm currently the c._e._o. Say care but i've been in the health health i._t. Speech recognition machine learning space for about twenty years. I started my career as a professor computer. Science taught at york university for a number of years and then cofounded a startup that was doing speech recognition for dictation which <hes> twenty years ago was the predominant way that physicians would capture their notes in document their notes. <hes> sold that company to nuance and i spent about five years as the v._p. Chief technologist nuances nuances healthcare division <hes> i've done another startup in between which was <hes> focused on patient engagement <hes> and say keira which i find it about four two years ago now has been focused on this problem of physician documentation so as a physician. I'm very happy to hear that. I'm happy that there are people like you that are doing in this work because as i've said a number of times before i keep referring to being able to address that problem as the holy grail physicians so maybe you can talk a little bit more about <hes>. You know why this is an important problem why you guys are really jumping into this sure having spent a lot of years in speech recognition. One of the things that i've been able to do is follow the trajectory of how the technology has evolved and how the user expectations and the user problems themselves have evolved and they've definitely evolved so as i said long ago physicians to dictation and generally they were happy with that they would ask patient walkout dictate onto a hand held recorder and they're done with the the documentation of course they still have to review it later on but they were generally happy with that process what happened about within the last decade when electronic talk medical records started becoming popular is that physicians were basically being told well now. You actually have to type directly into the e._m._r. Because we need data and the are you count just dictate like you were doing before and create a note. You need to put the note into the into the proper places. You need to put diagnosis in the right places. Meds allergies energies orders. Everything has to go into the right places and so now what you have is that physicians are spending an inordinate amount of time staring at screens so there's a lot of studies that i'd say they're spending two hours of screen time for every hour patient time and most of the time if you watch physicians these days if you go and visit a doctor dr you'll see a lot of the doctors are spent are staring at the screen while they're trying to talk to patients so they're back is to the site is to the patient they're typing. They're trying to listen to the patient and type at the same time and it's a terrible experience for both the doctor and the patient but it's they do what they have to do to get their notes completed the ones that aren't doing that during the encounter are spending their evenings doing this documentation and they're the ones that are actually suffering the most burnout because they're spending anywhere from two to four hours every evening closing in their charts and so as i was watching this this speech recognition technology evolve and seeing how the user <hes> problem was evolving into into capturing just the narrative which we used to do really well to ashley capturing data that goes into the right place in the car. I thought well this is. This is a a grand promises a really hard challenge <hes>. Nobody's figured this out yet and it's worth working on so that's how i kind of came into the space yeah and i like i said as as a clinician. I can really appreciate everything you said <hes>. I'm certainly guilty of doing that. I actually had no. I mean i recognize. It's not the best patient experience when i'm looking at a screen and taking notes while i'm with the patient but the reality is there's so much documentation that if i don't do that and i have to stay the office might my family life suffers at home and so you know it's trying to find that right balance so maybe you can describe a little bit how your platform works then yeah so what we started thinking about <hes> was to change the equation in terms of how speech recognition works so the traditional speech recognition if he is dragon for example is that you're looking at a screen and you're basically watching the words appear in the screen you're pointing and clicking into the right boxes first of all <hes> and if you're doing any kind of point and click which which is menus or check box and things speech wreck doesn't help you at all so what we started building was a solution that you could sit and face the patient and not archie look at a screen so basically what happens is with our app iran's on an iphone or an ipad you walk into an encounter you can just you select a patient and then he just set you turn it on and you just sit and talk to the patient and what the app does is that listens in the background. It's capturing the entire conversation but we typically tell the physicians john's is if you were not particularly good at <hes> listen to the patient voice today <hes> so when you're talking to the patient just make sure that you summarize a recap the important part of that conversation with the system does is it's very good at listening for those little points of narration are summarizations that the physicians positions are doing and it captured those and turns them into the note. If you say in order you say diagnoses. It'll capture that and put that into the right place in the m._r. So it's all about just making it a really convenient way for physicians to interact with their patients while the system is capturing the appropriate information putting it into the right place in the m._r. So i'm curious sort of what that looks like wants to notice captured does it does it. Come out in note form. Does it come out in a paragraph form. You know when when i go to look up that chart notes i would say the next time the patient comes into what am i actually seeing now in the chart so the no will look like a lot like you might have written it yourself except it'll be <hes> <hes> written a little differently of course but we create notes in narrative form so we capture information as data but we translate those into narrative form so they'll look like <hes> you wouldn't be able to tell that note from a note written by another doctor in other words and so with this type of technology. There's a lot of i mean. There's it's a very very important technology in the sense that it's gotta be accurate. Somebody's health is on the line. How do you ensure that. The is capturing what the physician is saying accurately and that's a great question in fact that is the central question because capturing conversations conversational information and translating that into the form of we're not a really really difficult problem in comparison speech recognition in retrospect now. It seems trivial back twenty years of course it was a really difficult problem but but speech recognition is just about capturing words without necessarily understanding any meaning just about predicting the next ward and making sure that you understand the sounds that were generated and translating those into the appropriate appropriate words we'll we're trying to do is trying to listen in on conversation and interpret dot conversation and this is really hard problem and it's a problem that takes it's time and a lot of data to actually solve adequately so what we started putting in place right at the outset we said well. We don't have the data today to be able to solve this problem completely well we you need to do is we need to capture that data. The only way to capture that data is to actually create a service that physicians ashley us and so we created this augmented a._i. Solution and you can liken it to when people building driverless vehicles the first autonomous vehicles have people behind the wheel and the people are making sure that the car staying hang on the road not running anybody over falling the rules of the road and the system over time is just learning. It's it's adapting and improving. That's exactly what we have. We have drivers behind and the wheel effectively that are making sure that the a._i. Does he appropriate interpretation so that the very first time the physician sees this note the first time they use it. They're gonna see an accurate note. It's going to be correct. They're gonna see it in their e._m. Are in the right place and they'll just sign off on it so that that was actually my next question is so when does the fishing fishing when does the when is the physician signing off on that note because they're they're the the platform is listening to what i'm saying. It's it's being captured as being part and then presumably after sign off on the note. How does that work yeah. The sign off depends really on the <hes> on the physician and what level of service. They've signed up for but you're right. It'll be after the encounter not going to be immediately. <hes> they're not going to do the encounter the patient and just walk out rate within a minute and <hes> signed it off because that review process that the human part of that process is what i'm bonds that time for us and so it'll be sometime out to encounter that bill habit available great well whenever never hear this type of technology like i say i get very excited because i can see the potential for freeing up a lot of my time but also ultimately helping with the patient care now. I know that you recently had some exciting news and it was a press is released about this. Perhaps i can get you to explain <hes> what would what that was all about and why that's important sure so the new release. This is very much like what i described right now. What are first version did it was much closer to the alexa model. Which is that you say this keyword so if you're using using alexa alexa every time going issue instruction now in our in our platform we always understood that physicians needed to do long form interactions not the simple one sentence kind of interaction so we would capture long-form interactions but we always required them to say a special phrase like okay keira as a preface to that so that the system new to listen in on that particular point and what we found was that when they're interacting with patients this is very <hes> <hes> it disruptive eruptive to that conversation with the patient so if you're talking to the patient about their history for example and every once in a while you have to stop and say okay cara and get it to listen in while you're continuing that conversation in you can do it but it's disrupted the conversation so we spent a lot of time trying to figure out well. How do we make this interaction this dialogue much more natural listening to the natural ways that physicians actually interact with patients as opposed to <hes> doing this with our disruptive form of <hes> listening and so oh that's what this new product that we announced was basically it allows us to capture these more natural interaction points rather than having a special word that we have to <hes> <hes> train the physicians to us. Yeah that's fantastic. I can i can recognize if you're costly talking to your assistant that would take away from the patient action as well so that that sounds like a really good step forward <hes>. Can you call it a little bit about now where you're at or are people using this as it in a beta version now or what's the current status and how are people responding to this so so we've had a phenomenal response to it we are in a number of large health systems <hes> so we've been live commercially for about a year <hes> and gradually growing our user base <hes> and our user base has been a combination of <hes> physicians in large health systems as well as small medical groups as well <hes> and entirely within the united states right now. We're not we're not in canada unfortunately yet but <hes> but the physician in response has been <hes> as i said it's been phenomenal enlarge. What physicians are saying is particularly the ones that spent a lot of evening time doing their documentation. We take that evening time away entirely and so we've had physicians archie. Tell us how life changing this is for them because <hes> we have one physician in orthopedist who said you know i i read books again for the first time in years because all my evenings before we're spent doing documentation and now i'm finding i have spare time and i'm actually reading again dan or i'm spending more time with family and those kinds of things during the course of the day for positions that are doing a lot of their dock mission during the course of the day of course i will improve their productivity and generally bill have more time to do other things such as seeing patients. We have some physicians that choose to see more patients than some that. I don't wanna see more patients. That's entirely up to them but the ones that choose to see more patients. We've been able to see a dramatic increase in their patient volumes for the ones that are motivated to do that. That's great and what about <hes> patient feedback. Have you had a chance to get a sense of what the patients. How are they feeling when their doctors doctors are using this technology so generally we heard anecdotally of course we don't talk to patients directly but generally the anecdotal information we get from doctors as their patients love and this is actually a point where a lot of physicians are tentative about this initially. They're not sure how their patients are going to react and what they generally find and <hes> is. There's things that happened. In this process. One is that because our system forced to the physicians to think out loud and they have to talk a lot since not gonna going to capture information and because they're now talking out loud where they might have either been silently typing or they're kind of writing notes to. They're gonna type in later now. They're actually saying things out loud and the patients love it to the patient reaction to that and again based on physician tells patients really appreciate when the physicians nations are kind of saying things out loud their thinking process and everything that's one part. The other thing that we hear is that we've heard from physicians that they're making fewer mistakes steaks and this is actually a surprise because i did not expect that when we were first thinking about this but what's happening is because the physicians are saying a lot of their thought process out allowed. We hear one physician. She told me she said that. I i get corrected by a patient at least once a day <hes> since i started using this and that's because as i'm saying kind of you know all right so <hes> so it sounds like you've been having this foot pain for the last week and the patient might say i said about three weeks ago and and those kinds of corrections would never actually have been <hes> done before because again the physician silently typing into patient never sees what the <hes> what the doctor is typing in and and they don't know if there's a translation issue and especially if the physicians are documenting later in the day you know your ability to recall <hes> is always going to be compromised by the fact that you saw twenty patients since that day and you're now mixing up what patient said what that's really interesting the <hes> the whole idea of the patient question the physician because i i can think of of multiple times when that happens. It's just naturally even miss a little word here or something like that and if you happen to recap the that makes a lot of sense so that's great what what's the future plan here. What are your next. What what are the next big goals or challenges that you're trying to tackle so the big innovation for us and this has been part of our overall mission from the beginning is to build build a system that is not just passively listening and capturing documentation but true clinical assistant and what that means for us is that our system were teaching it not to just listen but actually predict and understand what's going to happen in that encounter. If you have a patient that comes in for a shoulder injury for example our system is now beginning to understand what happens in the course of a shoulder injury <hes> encounter between a doctor and a patient. What is the information that the doctor wants to know. What is the physical exam. What is the likely assessments plan orders and so forth and what we're now injecting into that process is aside from this prediction where the system will always already be able to tell you well we think he might do one of these two orders and if we got it right go ahead and just say this ordering it's done <hes> you don't have to relate all the details because we have all the details because we predict them but beyond that injecting <hes> clinical guidelines into that process if you're part of a health system that has specific guidelines around when a particular order should be done <hes> worst i particular screenings that needs to be done filling in care gaps for example so we're trying to make the system <hes> smarter when it comes to clinical pathways <hes> and habit become an actual as as clinical assistant so it's not just a dumb assistant as just trying to capture information this for words but actually participating in the process and helping hoping to transform the process of care to i love it. I'm waiting for that day. Signed me off when you when you're when you're there and you're canada then i know this regulations and is different things that have to be in place for them to other countries but i love the concept. I love the idea so thanks so much for spending some time here on the podcast. Where can listeners go to learn more about what you're doing. They want to try this out in their own offices or clinics or hospitals. How can they get in touch with you or what's the best way to connect so the best ways. If you go to our website <hes> sekara dot com tom <hes> and then just sign up for demo and we're always happy to talk to <hes> providers and <hes> show them what we're doing and you. You know try to drum up more interest wonderful well again. Thank you so much for joining joining me in the listeners on the podcast. It's always great to check in with you guys doing some great work so thanks very much. Thank you very much sir. Well hope you enjoyed that episode. <hes> dr sandhu and the security team are doing a fantastic job. They're doing incredible work and as i mentioned and i am looking forward to the day when this truly is my assistant and you know i really can just forget about all the technology and everything happens just in the background. Thanks again to to understand due in akara team. <hes> i want to let you know that the links to everything that was mentioned is of course on the show notes page that can be accessed at voice. I health dot com slash forty two. Finally i just want to put an open call. A number of organizations have have now been approaching me with some interest in potentially sponsoring podcast episodes my goal with this has always been to remain an unbiased and and <hes> impartial commentator and analyst of what's going on in this industry and i certainly intend to continue to do that however i am happy happy to have discussions with companies organizations that are interested in sponsoring the episodes and of course those sponsorships will clearly be identified as as such they are sponsors but if you are doing good work and i feel that it would be a good fit. I'm happy to entertain those discussions. So thanks again for tuning in you can check it. All the resources sources at voice. I health dot com and i look forward to speaking to you again very soon <music>.

dr terry fisher cara canada dr ginger sandu york university alexa ryan plash sarah dr sanders dr sandhu professor Chief technologist keira archie analyst united states
Episode 158 - ACT in the Time of COVID w/ Dr. Evelyn Gould

ABA Inside Track

1:30:20 hr | Last month

Episode 158 - ACT in the Time of COVID w/ Dr. Evelyn Gould

"Hey everybody welcome to eighty-eight inside track the podcast. That's like reading in your car but safer. I'm your host robert. Perry crews and with me as always or my fabulous co hosts know rabbits. And it's me jackie. How's everyone doing tonight. Ever ready for another full length episode behavior analysis and behavior analytic research. You know like every week when we talk about a topic related to the field with some great research and sometimes intense a special guest smooth. I'm ready that was the question you are already. That's answer good. Glad here you are. You're ready. Jackie was well you're also ready. I'm always ready awesome. Well we are very fortunate tonight because we are speaking with Another awesome special guest in. That is dr eveland gould who will be talking with us. All about acceptance and commitment therapy especially in these hectic times of covid pandemic if you thought you're done listening to episodes about covid bill. You're not because this is a great one because we will also talk about acceptance and commitment therapy. You've only done one one episode. I think directly about talking about training so this is going to be a great way to get into that topic as well as bring some kind of modern times. Although i think this is a good modern time problem to have because let's do some some deep soul searching and thinking about maybe new topics but anyway love the title this episode act in the time of covid. That just gives it this really nice you know what do we all need something to help with mental health and anxiety and flexibility we. You know it's perfect time. Eleven the time of cholera. He'll to it. So i appreciate the reference i mean it was going to be act in the time of cholera. But i didn't know if that was really gonna make it less about that. Was who knows what that would be like. I don't know maybe you do. But before i go out with my terrible metaphors and terrible episode titles. Please please introduce yourself to all of our listeners. Hi i'm in. Flynn and i would love to not say any more but see. This is always the part that trip to me up. Because i go into complete anxiety mode so i'm gonna act myself rely on. I'm going to walk into the discomfort. And say i am a clinician. I'm abc bad and also a licensed psychologist and i work with families primarily for a work with families for two decades by a lot of that time. A huge portion of that time is was with families of kids with autism other learning challenges. And i also work a lot with ocd and anxiety and do everything from little. Babies opt to adults in lots of different settings. So michael work has bean pretty diverse. I suppose and i do research. I guess i do some research. And i have feet in both academic conical world. But i definitely would describe myself as a clinician primarily and. That's my passion under the work. The research that i do is typically applied and treatment evaluation kind of stuff on writing or bite humanity and things that matter and yeah and cat lady. I guess that would be my introduction choice. Like i'm a cat lady. Wait a minute you told us you research dog lady just saying that's okay. I don't have any hard feelings against dog people. I don't either against cat people. I don't want to be a cat person. But i'm totally a dog person. I feel same verse. I said in the introduction. We've only really talked about act once before on the podcast and that's not for a lack of interest. I know it's something that i have a huge stack of act books. Some of which. I believe you recommended in a in a webinar that you did last spring that i have and i haven't gotten through them yet but i'm going to. I know i will at some point but other things have gotten up because i have been fascinated with act and it's increasing popularity in the world of behavior analysis over the years and how many more people are just talking about it like it used to be a thing that i don't know about the rest of my co-host here but i had never heard of it maybe ten years ago and it just feels like you can't go anywhere without hearing more and more about act or act like therapies these days so we're really excited to have you talk about acting general and then specifically act kind of in the now in the in the present time in my kind of crazy in terms of i just wasn't reading the right stuff in terms of not seeing the popularity of act and i i was on the bandwagon or have you noticed that same sort of trajectory yourself in the past number of years. No i think that's right. I think at least within behavior analysis. That's that's correct. Like i came to through my. I was really lucky in my graduate program in wheels. We actually read the original act. Bookham were introduced are f. t. So because there are people there. It was in the psychology program Professors there were also psychologists as well as around lists on. I think there was some crossover there. And they were trying to introduce us to not just autism but conical bayer analysis another precision teaching and a variety of different you know. Aba kind of settings and populations in all kinds of things. So i think that was pretty unique so that would be quite a long time ago. When i moved to america i was still very interested in act but it yes. There is not very many other people within the world. There's a few reasons fun time talking about about one of the one of the things as or one of the fox's is that act really was developed folks within the psychotherapy cy call mainstream psychology realm and really was focused in. We address the kinds of problems. Such adults adults specifically not kisser lessons. Either but adults are presenting with when in terms of their suffering when they're coming to treatment like when they're coming to force mental health help or psychotherapy. So it kind of makes sense that there isn't there is not that many people who work walk in that realm right. Most people within our field still are mainly autism in children child adolescent kind of work on so. I think that's part the reason yeah. I don't think there was not that much interest. I had to go to try and learn the stuff. I had to really go out of my comfort zone and reach. People do a lot of digging around whereas night. I don't think you have to do that. Particularly in the past five years i think there's been increasing interest and i think we could also sometimes whole podcast talking about why that is but i really feel like people are probably where i was out in a lotta ways and i came to it because i recognized that there were deficits and my training and my ability to support the families that i was working with parents and my love of neighbor analysis on radical rivers specifically. Was telling me that. I should know what today that my science should be able to extend to these parents. That were you know presenting with a lot of anxiety. Sometimes they are really depressed. They were struggling to commit participate in their child's program on telling me all of the things they were struggling with him. I was just thinking. I don't know what to do with these people. I don't know what to say or what to do. And if my science is like a comprehensive science behavior. I should know what today like. This doesn't make sense that i have to refer everybody or say. Oh you mental health practitioner. That is not a behavior analyst. You should come in with your mental listrik way of thinking about things and help this person. That didn't work for me. So i really came to light of a need to fill a space an abundant. Give me some tools. That i just felt was lacking i was lacking and i wonder about whether some of the interest at least in act from behavior analysts ny where growing growing field on some of that is related to also others failing like all this wonderful technical stuff that i learned my program which is absolutely necessary for progress. Right is really important but it's not the technologies that i've learned or not enough like i need more. I'm struggling as a practitioner and also the people that i'm working with the parents staff. The older clients whatever. They're also struggling in this way that i don't know how to approach as a random list i would have to imagine similarly that that's got to be the way a lot i think. Behavior analysts are coming to act in the sense of. There's gotta be a better way. We can't just keep hearing about people with anxiety or ocd. Depression and shrug and say dunno. Sounds like you have to talk to therapist who may or may not be using behaviorally minded treatments even though there's a lot of research to support other but similar types of treatments in that field and you might just talk therapy and then everyone just wonders. Why doesn't the problem ever seem to get better. You know hearing stories while heading zayed like serious things is so much. I can't go anywhere for twenty years. And i've been in therapy that whole time and you wanna say well. That doesn't sound like it's working. Why wouldn't you use something you know that that is is research oriented or perhaps they are. You don't even know you know in in just wanting to find find that answer. I mean i think it's white probably all got into this field is what's the answer to help people. Is there a solution. Is there something that we can be doing better than what we learned when we were in graduate school undergraduate school. Even we always hit up against that problem of not being able to see what's occurring inside the skin. And i think time and again. That's what's taught in graduate programs. Right is because it's not that it's not there but we can't see it and to figure out how we can utilize the technology that we have and the understanding of learning that we have four behavior that is an observable is a really important application of this technology but i also think that where we talked too much. We should make sure we discuss scope of practice as well right so in this is we got into this. The other episode. We did on episode seventy five with dr adam. Hawse in case anyone out there wanted that info. We ran into the same thing when we had that conversation too is like this is an amazing application of our science but it. How does one go about becoming trained to do it. This is an ongoing conversation. We we're going to have to talk about this for you know for much longer in our faces people are just started delving around in here and part of the problem is because most of the work and knocked was or an item psychotherapy which is not what we're doing must behavior on less generally speaking and i think there's a few things that need iron that would help us with this in one is what is what we even mean by act and what it what are we doing. And what is the. What's the behavior that we're targeting here. More the That retargeting and i guess i thought would be like a starting place for because what people mean by act can be different from person to person and from context context. And i think. I'm thinking like i actually wasn't thinking about necessarily helping these parents with i was thinking. No one goes back to like how i came to act or hideaway. Hi can i develop treatments. That are more effective with somebody. He's been going to treatment for twenty years. I was just thinking this parent. How do i help. This parent engage in treatment. Effectively undo what they need to do with their kid which is. Ym they're right. I wasn't trying to change the point of my or the role that i had or trying to change. The point of oil was in that person's home. But i was noticing that there is stuff getting in the way There was other stuff showing up for that parent. that wasn't what was beyond the immediate contingencies. That i was observing. That was of problematic or getting in the way or that. I needed to think about eight. So there's this piece. I think in the scope of practice ideas. Like what is your goal. And what is your role like knowing. What is your role. Why are you there. What's your job and not deviating from the like knowing high to practice than your role and what the goal of treatment is and what are we talking about. Here are we talking. What's our target without like. We're not with act trying to get inside someone's head unchanged their thoughts or work on their thoughts or their feelings. That would be the same as cpt. Doesn't what we do. We're not trying to get inside person and fix their thoughts so they can start behaving differently. That is literally cognitive therapy right. We're about changing context revived overt behavior change Highest person gonna live differently or behave differently. One of my doing here so i think just conversations needs to be hot. Joined those two pieces like what what we mean by act. What is the target of act on water. What's our role ethically speaking or confidence. What is our role. What's her job. what are we there to do. Yeah that's those are the things that are showing up for me. What is act. What is the elevator pitch easier. What i kind of came to a discussion back with you. Based on kind of the webinar that you had done with dr sanders. Last spring was what isn't act. Because i sort of thought. I knew it from reading a book like ross harris book act. Made simple was the book iran. And i was like okay. That's that must be. What is now so. That's all will talk about right because that's usually how it is with books. You read one book and it's only going to cover so much and then hearing the two of you go back and forth and get into the nitty gritty of psychological flexibility. And talking about you know stepping into i forget exactly the phrasing yussef into the discomforts. I realize like oh no this is this is so much more than like the hexa flex which i think. A lot of people probably came to if they looked on wikipedia for acceptance and commitment therapy. That might be the thing that they saw i. So yeah this is like the craft in real time for you. Is that what was happening like. Over the course of this webinar we started out thinking you know everything and then you realize that you never thought i was like okay. I think i can. I can hang for a little bit and much more. I need to do more learn more. Do more which is kind of how we guest. It's like i gotta learn this. I'll just autism ask directly and find the answer. So i guess yeah. Let's start with with a quick elevator pitch. And then maybe talk about what we shouldn't be thinking of when we think about act. I would say for me act as a by learning high to use languages intervention and learning to be really good lesson around speak a useful listener and speaker. I guess being able to observe really fine greened observations of human behavior in the real time and then using language to manipulate context and get people doing different things get behavioral variability on new things that you can then reinforce or get lum dune a bunch of new stuff that brings them into contact with news. Sources reinforcement and undermines verbal control particularly aversive control. That's it like an unto me activi- as a by targeting psychological flexibility increasing psychological flexibility. And so it's literally anything that you do. The dolls dasa is act to me. So it's not the hexa. Flax it's not a bunch of prescribed metaphors exercises or specific technologies per se. It's as by psychological flexibility in the service off of in the service of adoptive behavior or we would say volume driven behavior flexible behavior. Yeah i think it narrows it but then also kind of broadens. What act could be. When i i was reading about it. I was thinking a lot about things. Like you know the mindfulness movement as oh i guess is that act is is that part of act or is that simply another way to describe some of the components that may go into the work that would kinda fall under the umbrella of act so can kind of speak a little bit too. That you know is mindfulness. Part of act is it. A tool is unrelated. Well first of all. I'm not the act police. So i have no interest in like going around and saying that is not act. You're not in your going to hand out. The i was really looking forward to it so i wanted to be really clear like i. I'm going to talk about what i think are what i think of his act and what it is. I'm doing when. I say i'm taxing saying this. This is act. What i'm doing right now. I'm not actively so you can disagree. People are free to disagree on and thought is okay so for sure. There's plenty of people that will say. Yes mindfulness is part of act. A not can look again. Mindfulness means a lot of different things to a lot of different people depending on their learning histories so some people will say yes on other people's might say no. I think most people will say it's part of it but then what people mean by. That might be different so to me. I like i prefer to talk a bite. Nine present moment awareness or awareness training or noticing. When i'm working with kids. I just call a noticing skills or observing and to me for me when i'm working on the mindfulness piece of act or the present moment awareness piece of act. I'm really just trying to teach them. It's it's a bite stimulus control. It's helping people notice a wider variety or sensitize them to a wider variety of stimuli in their environment because opens up a lot of choice and a lot more a lot more variability in responding possibilities for contacting the reinforcement that you didn't notice before and all the rest of it so i'm really just trying to get them from underneath Verbal control and into the immediate direct contingencies. Supposed to be another way to sat and sun sizing moms they have more options. When you're under versus control you're you're very limited in your repertoires. Just focused on scape or avoidance right. So you're only noticing the aversive stimulus most of the time. You're not sensitive to join a and with mindfulness. What we're trying to do is help. Get you broaden your tire broad purposeful attention so it's not just i guess another thing to say for me it's like it's not just fight discrimination training or training someone to more stuff or be sensitive to more stuff. It's also by teaching people to be able to shift their attention rind jennings really important so that he can attend to what is most useful in the moment. You know. there's a lot of non he released ending stuff in there. But that's just of at other people within the community though might might talk about mindfulness being part of it as an more formal mindfulness way like they have. They actually are mindfulness practice. Practitioners having formal training and not and have lake formal. Meditation practices that they engage in. They teach other people to engage in but the goal is the same. I think komo what way you're thinking. What mind from present woman. We awareness the are just talking attention paying attention and observing. That is the skill. And you're talking about a rapid-fire that can be taught and reinforced. I guess for us. I mean we. We have beer variety of kind of psychological class work. You know in the past then. That wasn't something that we necessarily practice every day. So it's it's one of those things that you know any time to put. I know personally for me to put my hat back on this sort of you know what would what would like therapy. Your how would i use behavior analysis in therapy and pulling from a lot of different places in very few of them in the context of directed practice versus. I just read a lot of stuff. So i had to make up my own thoughts as to what that means so is always good to have someone come back. I can give you an example for me in my practice. It would just looked like i. I'm trying to help people notice. What's the source. The stimulus control right. Notice what responding to you. What's controlling the behavior and really paying attention and getting know that. That is what i'm doing so that can look just like so jackie. Like what are you noticing right. Ni- what can you hear. What can you. what are you thinking. I like that okay. So i am seeing the lights around may son room and it is snowing outside and i can hear my dog whispering like this behind me because she wants to go for a walk and my neighbors are walking along their backyard. Do you notice any salts that you're moving or what we what you're thinking right now. I was thinking that. I'm a bit tired and that mitee's delicious and that we're having a nice lovely chat you just literally. Did the skill like the skill is being able to move your attention around. Be like what i might paying attention to. I'm noticing i'm having saw a bite i'm tired. I'm noticing that i'm tired. I'm also noticing my dog making noises. I'm also noticing the light. And i'm also noticing so that is the skill that's all it is even if you're noticing that you weren't paying attention that's still noticing. Notice that you are paying attention so you can see dot dot looks very different from if i asked jackie. Okay we're gonna engage a ten minute ormeau meditation practice. It's shaping the goal. I mean for me. Anyway the goal would be to shape that scale that directly relate to the work towards like psychological flexibility and acknowledging psychological distress. I am i putting the two together in that regard are they not related quite like that. They are related. So i guess we should talk about psychological flexibility in kind of what we mean by that and for me the psychological part of that too word thing is just language processes right. That's all i'm talking about. Like rules ruled deriving rule following that kind of thing so language processes on the flexibility part is the same so when you think about behavioral variability or behavioral flexibility like. What does that mean to you. What does what does that mean to you when a person's flexible or behaving flexibly like what are you noticing that they could engage in a variety of repertoires of behavior regardless of the internal or external stimuli. That are in their environment. German environment might be sort of what i'm thinking of. Yes so they can generate novel responses or if if if for example the contingencies change right and something that worked before it doesn't work anymore. The context changes on this pattern. Remain gauging in doesn't work anymore that you're able to adopt to that right problem solving. There's a that's involved in any kind of problem solving that repertoire. Right on that you can try a bunch of different things. In order to get access to reinforcement when the contingencies change or to figure things out that's the way i kind of think about it and psychological flexibility to me is kind of is basically the same thing but we're talking about coun- you respond flexibly psychological so in terms of the way in terms of language language flexibility or thought we include like thinking within that. My thinking is languaging experienced. Destroy ask so when you experience and aversive private amount of some kind like whether it might be a feeling physiological sensations. Whatever that is that you're able to respond flexibly to instead of just responding rigidly in terms of that escape or avoidance response repertoire or that you don't keep doing the same thing over and over when it's not working again again that you're able to maneuver ryan dot experience or that obstacle Do a bunch of other things to kind of adoptive in the face of that you can kind of see. Mindfulness would be helpful for that. Because mindfulness itself is is in. Its teaching flexibility right. It's teaching you to broaden your attention from just being particularly like i'm noticing. I'm having this thought. But i'm gonna fail at this podcast Horrible job and if i just stay stuck attending only to that thought i'm probably not going to you know i'm not going to do a good job. I'm gonna it's going to be very aversive. i can feel the anxiety and my body. I'm just going to stumble over my words and just be stuck. So when i'm practicing mind from us right now. I i'm trying to broaden my attention beyond just thought to listen to your voice To notice what's happening in my body and be able to start doing a bunch of other things that might be more helpful to me than spiraling does not make sense. It makes perfect sense. And i do want to ask one of the terms that i often see in act is the idea of you know value driven action and certainly is in the articles. Which now that. I think about it. We need it when you use those. We'll just let's introduce those in a minute. I think good introduction because it's no good talking about articles if we don't have our context but when you're working with other individuals on act when you're working to improve. Their psychological flexibility is it so that they can act towards those values. Or is that not necessarily a term that you use in your own practice or focus on and you're in your practice so it depends. Because sometimes i will talk specifically i will use the word values or valuing or other times. I won't use any activates whatsoever. Values are extremely extremely powerful. Motivators when i have somebody in front of me. That's having a really hard time. I'm inevitably the treatment or behavioral intervention is gonna be hard change. Discomfort always precedes changeon or challenge always precedes change. What we wanna think about it. But there's just. I'm gonna be asking them to do some really hard stuff right. It's hard to. We are creatures of familiarity. We hate ambiguity will to all kinds of things to avoid Uncertainty on we see an animal studies as well as human studies. And so i'm gonna ask them to do things that are hard in order to get them to do that. I need to bring something into the remnants. Really really powerful right. Some some kind of a pattern of that's going to motivate them to try bunch of different things and behave differently in response to something. That's pretty versus and hard. I can't always do that with like eminem's right. We know this and often when people are people are the i work with are really really struggling under very little reinforcement available saddam in that space that they're in or the. The schedules are very very thin. Anyway if not absent on is the practitioner is a hard for me to deliver an immediate reinforcer. I guess sometimes chocolate might work or the like that. But generally i'm not not or it's not gonna be enough and so to me. Values are a way of using language to bring these really powerful motivators into the room. That can help people understand why it's like people's why isn't it. It's like why. Should i do this really hard thing. If i can't figure i walk thought is that i'm going to have a really hard time. Moving people so from whether this is a parent parents that i'm working with law of work with parents whether it's the kids that i work with our young people. I work with the adults that i work with from the beginning. I'm lessening really carefully for what is the thing. what is it that they really care about on tidal. I capture that on. Bring it into the room using my words to help them do stuff. The tired i think something that really trips people up as well. And i think this was something we we'd may be mentioned in the questions earlier but is that values people get Even behavior analysts will be around us. We should know better because we're all by function right. That's the whole basis of our science built around the this idea of function versus topography yet. I see even behavioral analysts. Getting really stuck on worth the the topography of what people are saying right. The words that come on people's minds are the words that right dine so when they see someone saying something that looks like of folly. They assume that that is value. Even though i would say that just because somebody says the signs like valley i'm looking at. Is this actually functioning. Like a volley it. Same thing as we don't just assume reinforcer is a reinforcer based on what it looks like right. We we try. We say we care by whether it's actually functioning as we can't call or reinforcer as she functions as a reinforcer so it's the same values as that i. I'm looking for the quality or the function in terms of like hi. It's working height. Works to decide if this is a value or not. Kind of reminds me of like Comedy movie where where everyone is. Clearly you know out for their own self interest but there may be working for a philanthropy group and they keep saying some sort of phrasing like we're doing this for the children because he was for the children you know but they clearly all doing it for different reasons. So you know the difference between actually taking them what they're saying that face value versus what is the actual function his actual goal in life or in this movie. This scene is the heart of act firm as teaching me. Hi to look beyond the topography of words and well. What is actually happening. I need to observe more than just the words and valuing as piece of values or with your feet we say values or with your feet right. I'm looking at like okay. This person is saying. I care about school right. I scared white school. But what i'm noticing is that maybe that's that the function of that is actually not. It's not log mental. It's like something else something else going on there. Maybe it's clients right. They're saying it because that's what they're supposed to say a history of being reinforced. Were saying the right thing or pleasing adults or whatever. Now that we've had a very excellent chance to talk about what act is what it isn't and what are some of the ways that act can be you know used as behavior analysts. Let's take a quick break. When we come back we are going to talk about how act is possibly more relevant than ever because of some of the challenges will some showers. We're all facing a lot of challenges. So we'll be talking about that. And specifically the published articles relating to that confluence of events. Right after this will be right back. Abc sure we all do nike come to regis college in western mass to get your graduate degree. Choose from any one of these courses masters of science in applied behavior analysis masters of science in special education duel degree in special ed and a ba or be eligible for your post master's certificate. You complete your degree and be ready to sit for the exam in two years and are two thousand seventeen. Grads had a hundred percent pass rate on the be a cb exam come enjoy practicum placement support ethics many handbooks phd level professors small class sizes and service trip to iceland. If interested don't delay supplies are limited. Learn more at regis college dot. Edu again that's www dot regis college dot edu regis college dot edu one more time www dot regis college dot e. d. u. c. And we are back talking with dr even gould about acts in the time of cova but before we continue this conversation. I want to remind our listeners that. Aba inside track. It's as approved by listening to this episode. You can earn a one learning credit. You're going to need to certainly finished listening to the episode and then go to our website. Aba inside track dot com slash. Get see us. That's g. t. hyphen c. e. u. s. And enter into secret code words. The first of which. I will give you right now. It's carrot c. a. r. r. Ot it's vegetable a root vegetable. You find it in the ground. Rabbits limits and humans to carry. Do you all like carrots. You care at fans absolutely. I like carrots. But i also every time i think of carrots i think of the time when gilbert blythe of green gables called her curiosity house hit. She hit his her slate over his head. I read those books in ireland. Me metoo so good I only saw the the. Tv show the tv movie versions. Don't they're pretty good. They're very good when we back in person rabbi have all of them. Don't worry oh boy. We can take a thirteen to fifteen hour day and just watch all of them. I was a big fan of avonlea. The show i would. You know what we're now. We're getting way off topic but you know it's not an episode of abyan subtract. We don't talk you know. It's not really asked topic. Not totally off topic. Because i don't know if you remember this part but she says she says the very act thing she says. The sun will keep on rising and rising and shining weather. I fail at geometry. Or not. And i think that all time because i love that idea just like this does not matter or you know hard stuff happens on the world keeps moving forward and i don't know okay but anyway carrot. You're telling you so now that we have gone through a very thorough and excellent introduction. Let me introduce the articles that will be discussing which i think will be great further exemplars. What act is and how it is relevant in these times and those articles are an invitation to act on the value of self care being a whole person. And all that you do by five gould. Ming and watson from behavior analysis and practice twenty twenty. cj thought. I was going to say it anymore. But i still am so glad. I've missed it first. Things first parents psychological flexibility and self compassion during covid nineteen by coin. Gould gremaldi wilson fudo and big one also from behavior analysis and practice twenty twenty and humble behavior ism by near injure from the behavior analyst. Nine hundred ninety one. I have to be honest in reading. These articles did feel a little bit like that old game from sesame street which one of these is not like the other and yet similar yes. That's that's true that's true. I think there's something about reading early. Nineties behavior analytic papers. That always i always have to put myself into a very different mindset reading more modern the more modern work. I don't know if it's just my age. You're sort of where i would have. Why wouldn't have been reading that one at the time. Because i was not old enough to read in her injuries. Work and it's a behavior analyst publication. So you know you gotta strap in hold on a theory road. So i guess a good question to start with. We'll i hope it's a good question to start with. But i'm gonna ask it regardless is what was sort of the genesis of these two articles. You and fellow act practitioners. Were like the rest of us to sing. Men twenty twenty. Yikes what a mess. We should totally be thinking about all the work that we're doing. And and some of the patterns we might be seeing and and write a little bit more about it. Sort of bring some of the the principles act to a different audience or was it completely. Something else sort of sparked. The development of these articles at the content of the article says not As something that this is this is the work that me and my colleagues are doing all day every day to some extent but for sure i can. I can talk about self care. Go i on that s you know me and me and my colleagues who paper together. We talk about this topic a lot. We provide peer support to each other a lot but we felt like a few things that we were noticing so for me. I was noticing when the coat. When colbert evan was gonna swear there but everything went site. It's okay not a lot of children. Listen to this show. Well i noticed was there is we have. We have a lot of efforts to support practitioners in terms of i us in articles like heidi you move your practice onto tell onto online like hide. We do that hide. We keep doing what we're doing in this different way in this context. that has that we're in ny. Heidi you you know. What are the ethics of that papers. Were helping people navigate the ethics of doing telemedicine them so on on what was missing for me was what about the practitioner. So this is awesome. We have this article that says here's how to do parent training over telehealth. But i was not seeing anything around. Here's how to cope with the stress of this. Massive contextual shift has happened Here's hi to keep showing up when the families that you're working with her or also just struggling so much in so many different ways. And i was seeing that outside of aver analysis. So i have my foot in the psychology world. So i was seeing just immediately seeing articles and free webinars articles but self care burn tools for practitioners. Peer group supports like these resources being thrown. Even like places where you could sign up to provide free like support as a psychologist for other other people in the front lines so warning other people so just a law help and recognition joined high heart assistant to help others in this kind of context and put your own oxygen mask on first like Lot of help there but not inside bayern says so. I think part of our push to get this fast was was thought was to be like we need to offer something to the practitioners for themselves. It is not necessarily a bite what they're doing with their clients but it's going to help them put their auction mosque on. I in order to be able to keep helping. And i think we also observed this phenomenon. At least i. I certainly wasn't syrian. I for sure talked about this. At some point. It's ringing a bell in my head up by phelan like practitioners. Were also trying to force a square peg into wrong toll like that. They were really literally trying thinking that they had to keep doing exactly the same thing that they've been doing before in this really different context and not not they're not being a lot of like self compassion and south carolina underinvest account and. I can't do things. this axiom wise. I was doing before because it's literally a completely different situation. So i think those are the main reasons for that article and then the the parent one is well. We myself and my colleagues felt that there were some good stuff coming night a bite. Here's heightening parent training until al. Here's some tools for parents. Here's hi to get your kids to get online to us. It felt like this is like more to do all of this stuff. This company is just like here parent. Have some more stuff that you should be doing. I'm here have some more stuff. That's telling you that you're not doing stuff right. A not a lot of like stepping back and helping parents like navigate the the high level of distress pressure and burn. That comes from comes whenever you're faced with all this uncertainty in this dislike constant state of crisis over failing on my collision of roles. We talked about in the article where parents are suddenly like neither teachers as well and they're also paranoid zone they're monitoring all of the stuff they have all these decisions to make work contamination and all this other stuff that they don't have to think about. Yeah so the. The article really came onto the place. I mean i have a feelings about the first things first part title because i think obviously first things first is basic needs on a lot of families like. I'm not gonna walk into a homework. They need help with meeting basic. Needs like safety and shelter and food and things like that. A lot of families thoughts. What's needed would be not okay for me to walk in and be like let's practice self compassion right now while you're not safe the reason we said first things i was really just like we need to slow down before we ask parents to do more stuff like they have a to do list. That is off the charts right and we need to buffer. We also were like anticipated buffer. Just the fall light from all of this struggling all of this stuff that's going on and we were kind of like thinking about. I mean not. Only seeing. So i guess i could say i like i said i work with parents lawn an given normal year pre code. I are week. I could say week recode. I am carrying a carry a certain level of really hard emotions and things that my parents are experiencing and some of that. There's a percentage of that. The dislike kind of hopelessness or really deep grief or fear by the futures stock nestle uncertainty in like some really painful stuff on then i noticed in coverted thought percentage has just got so much bigger like my the families that i know i am working with are struggling so much more. We were noticing that shift that shift in the might of pain and difficulty that we were carrying as practitioners and trying to help our families with unanticipated. Like thinking we need to do something. No we can't wait for this to get worse on. It's only like what's going to be like after his down like on the fall of that and like we need to go back to the oxygen mask metaphor again but like we need to do something to help. These parents needed healing noy. That's going to help them help their kids and help move them through this endless uncertainty and there's actually some research just. I was just reading an article earlier today. That came might like last week or something on psychological flexibility parents and covert just showing that inflexibility just lack of skills. I guess and coping results in a lot of a lot more. I mean we already. I'm sure you already have seen the statistics on domestic violence but things like just coercive parenting practices so the increased stress of the pandemic predicts like more course of parenting inconsistent parenting and conflict between partners. And things like that. But that also is worse. If you're psychologically inflexible so they noticed that if you're with parents are more. Psychologically flexible are more likely to ride or surf the stress better but also it predicts more reinforced based parenting like more consistent parenting as well and last conflict and so odd so i guess dot. That's all i mean. I didn't have that research and whenever we were doing this but we suspected that based off you know everything that we see in our practice every day. So yeah i guess. That was. Kind of long winded. Answer one thing that i really love about both of these articles is your use of common language. In the articles. I particularly loved the hash tags in the articles. I'm not usually a hashtag or myself. I'm not very well versed in the hash tagging. But i did find it useful and i love the use them. Can you kind of explain like where that came from. And if you've noticed it's it's helping at all really quick answer for that. And that was kelly wilson. Kelly wilson was. The one came up with the hashtag idea. And i have to say that. We don't hostile end because i had a pro. I was struggling with the hash feeling okay but hashtags being in a behavior analysis paper. I don't i. I i was like you. Just don't know what the hashtags feels like little cheesy and i also got caught up in my thoughts by will as our hashtags going to feel coercive to some people like look at me hashtag meaning matters and then i'm going to be like i guess i'm not doing a good enough job at hashtag meaning matters but kelly is a very wise person. No knows a saying so we kept the hashtags. And i am not surprised by what you decide. Because we've had other people also told me directly my colleagues that they thought the hashtags where she very helpful. They liked them a lot. So the rationale for them obviously is not common language on this idea that kelly had ruined kinda pro social sharing community building on could we could we build community by through some of these social media sharing means which. I'm not that savvy about so so the idea is that you would then look up the hashtag if you wanted to know more i mean i don't speak for kelly or even know anything about social media's stuff like this but i think the idea was just to. I'm not sure if maybe maybe it was a little like you could take these hashtags share in your community or it was just sort of. Highlighting are simplifying kind of these ideas. I guess both. Maybe when i read it as we can them to share across our community. Nc like these things matter. This is what i'm doing to help myself. This is how. I'm trying to take care of myself or in saying it's okay to take care of myself and i'm using these hashtags to promote the self care that we all need yes. I think kelly would agree with that. Hey kelly right because you have to develop a common language in order to be able to to talk about these things together so then if you can hashtag meaning matters than other people who are like minded gonna find it and do the same and like you said build that community online. If one knows how to hashtag which. I don't really do so in terms of kind of some of the work with families when we're trying to meet families where they are as you say in the article as members of a compassionate science we want to help families in these times of crisis recognize that they need to take some time for themselves or practice. Some amount of self care but like you yourself said And makes perfect sense. If we say and dad. I know you've got a lot of stressors right. Now take a minute for yourself. There you know get kicked out of the house like quigley. Who were you but you just sort of other ways that we can more subtly influences the right term because that that sounds very like weirdly various ways that we can either self model self care or bring up self care in a way. that's not. Hey you know what else you should do. In addition to everything else be good to yourself to put that on the bottom of that's z. Zeta at the bottom of your of your list of right a million. If i'm stressed out. That's the last thing. I want to take a breath and calm down supposed to have time to do that. Have all these other things. I'm trying to do yeah. I love to hear some of the ways that you came up with a road about. How would you do this in a way. That's not going to just be told like. I'm not paying you to give me therapy and i didn't ask you for your help and i don't have time for this so thanks for nothing kind of Response wohlers a few things that are shown me one of them is high important. It is for practitioners to be walking. The walk. And i would ask when you're saying to apparent. Oh you should take a breath and just relax was the function of that. Is that about you trying to fix the parent or trying to make you feel better because it feels to raleigh. Wanna make their motion. Go away wanna make it better. What's the function of that. That's not necessarily to help. The parent engages healthcare. So i think that is so important. What like there is no rule. There's a rigid rule by what what is self care mean. What is what is it. Heidi do it. I'm not walking in and telling parents to do listening really carefully to what's going on for them and making space for whatever's happening not trying to fix it or make it go away because he come like account make the van damme ago way. I wish i wish so much we could. We have a wand and be like dale. your stressors gone but sinking bite. If i notice like i'm doing an assessment essentially because i'm going in and being like what. What is his parents struggling with and high can help them are. Do they even need my help. Like maybe the parent doesn't even need help. They're managing the best. They can on their suffering but the suffering isn't necessarily like that's there but are they still doing everything that they need to be doing. Are they asking for my help. Dona sas like is there a need for building self care skills probably because almost every person on the planet especially parents struggle with that right go by trying to help them with that is going to look really different depending on the parent and where they're at in terms of their skills and their context so it could just be an thinking might like well what is it. I'm trying to do i. I want to do. Most of the time is this parent is only experiencing hard stuff. What do i wanna do. I want them to contact more reinforcement. I want to figure out a way to create some more reinforcement through their day. Hama gonna do that. It's not gonna be like. Oh if you work on this behavior pond for the next month things will be better. That's that's not going to be helpful. I want to think about like hi. Can i and i don't want to their to do list your rights. I'm going to go do yoga every day next week. That's probably not going to happen. I can't one model. These skills for the parent like show them like is really hard. And i'm just making space for that. Like i'm not going to try and fix it. I'm going to sit and was going to be present with the sometimes just being present with people as off. Hi my taking care of myself. Am i setting boundaries. Being kind to myself when i'm feeling pain like model that for them and they're gonna feel about. Is this parent a math problem or a sunset. That's a kelly. Wilson thing can approach every single problem like that as either a mouse problem and a problem through salt or is it sunset to be appreciated the kindness showing up to my strokes. There's different ways to struggle with stuff you can fight and struggle in very harsh punishing way is or you can be kind compassionate with your pain and with the stuff that you're struggling with so i definitely want to model all of these skills on then you think about what's the smallest smallest thing that i could do for this parent that would just add one in just one moment of care and space on sheep and then she from there and it might just literally be a noticing skill like kind. You notice what you're feeling and tell me name it it'd be that's it to begin with. Maybe it's just making a lying. The parents faced to say what they're feeling. Maybe it's it's. I mean one of my personal favorites is just trying to find help. Parents start to notice really small small sweet spots in the day right. That could add. Like if you start noticing just. I love coffee so mcafee person. I love the smell of coffee. Just taken a second did a smell. Coffee tasted thoughts. Just choose atkins right there. Can i notice the softness or the smell of my kids hair. That's a moment. That's really reinforcing come. I notice a smile my kids'll off or my kid. You know something my kid does. It's funny or the cats. The cats really nice. I like when you like those tiny moments. That's that cannot up to a lot more reinforcement in your day. Was there before. And that's part of the noticing skill in mindful attention and that's a tiny thing that doesn't require any more effort right. That's just. I'm doing my things and i'm just paying attention. I think the the things that are important are practitioners. Being aware for sure of the function of their own behavior like. Why am i doing this or saying this. Right now is despite perr anders. Bite me and meeting parents. Were there out in terms of not trying to force them to be summer whether or not on a lying space for it to be hard and then helping them you model and compassion for them. Modeling the skills yourself will be helpful and then trying to figure out where this. What's the smallest east was the smallest step that i can help this parent with a not doing in like another thing that they have to do or an agenda an agenda. And i'm i'm trying to fix you kinda way and then there's the volume piece to like really trying to help. Parents notice that valuing is a way of being that. It's something that you're doing on that you can turn. You can make every moment a bite. Something that is important that does not mean that the the the hard stuff goes away. So i think jackie one of the questions that you had posed with something or by are we asking people to ignore adversity or turn away from anniversary were absolutely not the opposite of act and we could just ignore adversity. Why why would we have in this conversation. Everybody would just be ignoring the problems. Merrily moving along their way doesn't work. Oh jeez well you thing is it does work a little bit which is why people get stuck on it because in the short term you can usually find a way to ignore stuff by it doesn't it doesn't typically work in the long run. I'm we usually end up doing a bunch of destructive stuff in the process of trying to avoid so with parents like. I want to make sure that we're being clear. Maybe we didn't do a good job with that in the article which is totally fair but to be clear that we're saying yes there's adversity there and not you have to make that go away in order to move forward or you have to ignore that and move forward. It's like you can. Adversity can be there and there can be more than adversity. It's a bite like a apparent this story about parent the on friday. I was meeting with a family and the parent was saying to me that she had talked to a mentor about this metaphor. And she was using it to describe like the they have a child. Who's town i think. Ten or eleven so unruly. They've just been going through the hardest time during this pandemic. it's really really hard for them and she was saying like it's kind. I realized it's kinda like you've got these different jars and your this ball. It's like all your pain and chronic challenges and all the worries about my kid is going to end up in jail or dad or heist is gonna work for my kid and and things going to get better and a lot of trauma and like all the stuff. It's not a bite trying to make the ball smaller jar. It's like trying to get a bigger jar and really just making life. Bear are ruined. The ball on the ball stays the same size. But it doesn't rule everything anymore So the adversity doesn't go away. I thought makes sense. It's making your life bigger. I really liked that. Characterize that too. Because when i read the article with parents i instantly thought like how am i gonna do this under my strict guidelines of insurance funding insurance mandates in school pressures. But if it's me modeling right empathy and compassion and being aware in the moment. And i think that most certainly can tie into you know while i'm working with parent working with a client and in bringing that into all of the moments that were working together and so i i. I really love that. Because the first time i read it. I'm not gonna lie. I was like oh no. I'm not sure how i'm going to be able to do this. I read the same. Jackie is a step to on my agenda is be there for the parent for five minutes and make sure they understand that i care about you and i'm here to help and then i gotta move on. I did not think about it in terms of how it's something that you could continue to model it was again. It was the math problem. Not the appreciation of the sunset is is sort of fortunate. I think a lot of folks i mean. That's how i approach even an article. That is clearly trying to have me think in a different way. It's like okay. So this is one more tool i can use to help. People are sol. Solve people more so than actually help people i mean. That's just so hard as behavior unless they're wired to be problem solvers on rule followers really understand that. It shows up in all the trainings. The i ever do. All the presentations is like we'll just give me the row late. Just tell me. What is the rule. And i will follow it. Highway do this. What is when is what is in my scope. Tommy the rule and and of course like it's not a pipe thought. I don't want i don't want to do that. I want to act as all about tracking teaching tracking contractually sensitive rule following where. You're adjusting what you're doing depending on the situation. So i don't yeah so but i but i get it because we we kind of are shaped to be that way it's har- it's really uncomfortable for people but i guess i wanna just kind of piggyback on what you just said just thinking if you just did want the one thing of showing up joe parents hice and thinking of seeing them as a sunset be appreciated in all of the golan through the instead of arriving like thinking. I wanna do this parent. Go fix this ago to make us better. Go get make this go away and gets apparently this and seeing him as a math problem to be solved like high high. Might feel like think about yourself like how would it feel for you to have somebody. Come to your door and see you something to be fixed. As opposed to coming in seeing is a sunset or something to be appreciated. Like what that feels like just like you can do those practitioner. One of my past jobs. I worked with families of really newly diagnosed kids and that was something i would talk to my teachers. My staff about two is. This is such a intense point in time for these families right and they are not going to remember everything. That's going on right now because they're in such a high level of stress. They may not remember us. They may not remember all of our names but they're gonna remember how we made them feel and whether they felt like we were helping them through this. And that's that's all that we should be there for right now like this is a long journey under percent under percent. I couldn't agree more. It's not our job to fix everything like we actually something. I've really learned through this journey. A is as. I've got better at showing up it from this act stance like how practicing this all the stuff myself and showing up in a very different way to parents on the listening better and really being present on paying attention to what they care by getting on the same page. What i've noticed. Is i do a lot less training of parents and i really like i don't have to because it's it's often ought account through parents knew actually do know how to parent their kids. They when they are provided or when you create the context for that they come notice they are not like they get it. They're like yeah. My kid is screaming. Because i won't give him as i probably shouldn't give it to him like they get that it's just all of this other stuff can get on the way and and and they have a hard time being effective. But when i when i show up in this act way and just listen a dual. Good stuff this therapeutic alliance kind of stuff and really pay attention. They can come up with they can do it. I don't have to do teach them about reinforcement analyst eyed acting stuff way yesterday about dra unlike it conde ignoring unlike all this stuff. I don't i don't have to do that. I don't have to give them a behavior plan i do. It doesn't say it doesn't mean that i don't ever make suggestions or guide them. I do but i don't have to do a lot heavy lifting anymore on on on the funny part is also just i get so much better compliance. The parents start parenting much. More effectively on the are able to do at like. They're they're so resilient really really do know high today this with help with the support. It's it's been a really entrust journey from that perspective. Because i definitely came from like a traditional eib i space of like doing a workshop with parents and all these slides and then how lights and practicing enroll. Doing all of that stuff. And i and. I don't do any of that night. And i get way compliance so yeah it's it's interesting. I know i think we all sort of like. Oh well we'll probably most of the time talking about you know. How can we help parents. But i'm here you described so many of the themes in the articles and i'm wondering if the bigger problem is not how we're helping parents but how we're helping ourselves recognize our own patterns of behavior that may be making situations that could be easier harder. Or ways that we're inadvertently focusing on the reinforces that are important to us which is inherently going to worsen our relationship in our ability to model self care and model some of these important behaviors to parents into the other individuals that we work with. I sort of feel like oh no. I'm broken. What's wrong here. Because i i know you know. You're talking in the articles about common components of humanity and appreciating comic opponents of humanity and some of the wording in terms of asking people how they're doing and i couldn't help thinking of joey from friends that when i ask people how they're doing i feel like it's like there's no waiting with like there's no way i'm saying this genuinely because they must know deep down like parents they know what to do. I think i know what i'm supposed to be doing and that's nice. I feel like i'm a phone this. I can't have that genuine compassion. Everything's a problem. I have to solve the problem in. Need to get out of that pattern. So i did appreciate the article that you wrote for the practitioner of give yourself a break because i know every time i try to kind of follow the steps feels like that's all i'm doing is i've got my recipe for making friends with the people i work with and making them feel good and part of me saying you don't know what you're talking about like it's the of words. Your function is trying to make yourself feel better in the moment. So i don't even know if it's a good question now that asking. What are some tips. You should give me because again. I think is missing the point. I think yes. I think friendly. Sorry i didn't bring you onto therapy. But i guess that's taps things that are showing off every one is we. We are so used to being the experts and we need to notice that unrealized them when we try to do stuff. That is different. It's gonna feel really uncomfortable are not gonna like it because all these thoughts are gonna show up like you just described. This feels weird. This is not me. I don't know it doesn't feel good but nothing that is part of learning. That is that there is no way to fast track to being good at something that i've gone through that process of feeling uncomfortable or happens ought to buy like i'm gonna say this in his parents going to be like what the f. you undoing and trying being willing to try it anyway and being willing to notice yeah the first time that you walk in and say to apparent fear. If you're not used to doing that and they're not used to hearing you say that you walk in and you say how are you doing this week. They might be like what you might feel aired thoughts. Okay that is okay just because it feels uncomfortable. It doesn't necessarily mean that something's wrong it doesn't it can mean that change is going to happen it can mean that you're learning butts. Okay like making space first of all making space for just feeling like this is weird on a dozen doing janice right. That's okay that's part of the process on. You're going to get it wrong. That's also part of the process and your feel like you're fumbling around and stumbling and you mike. Apparent dislike walton north. And i don't like that. That's okay and i still feel like that. Sometimes when i'm working especially when i work with new clients i'm still got that feeling of signs stupid or this is all right and then the other part of that showed up from you and you're talking there was just a sort of like why not just name that model the skills right there you can say to your staff like you know. I'm just talking the thought right. Now that i have no idea what to say and i really care i really care. And it's because we try to learn ways of like helping everyone is a really hard time right ni- and it's hard. I'm committed to doing it like just modeling. i'm noticing. I'm having the thought that allies your staff. Oh what am i thinking. Oh i'm noticing. I'm thinking that too. And then they're learning how to be more mindful right. So that is doing you are doing it. You're doing the thing. Yeah so i think a lying yourself. Time to start trying on new ideas and new skills and new things is you make space for and you'll find your own way of doing it. You know that's the other thing. I could be content contextual sensitive like the whole point of this is to be kentucky sensitive. There is no rules of the topography of while. I have to say in a specific parenting meeting like that. That's not there. It's the function that matter so high get there can look lots of different ways and you'll find your way because you're a different person with the different learning history from me so the way that i describe things in this article or the examples i gave might not might not resonate free. You might wanna use different words or you might wanna say things miss slightly different by it also depends on the parent on the situation on the relationship that have the person and so on so you gotta just try stuff on and then tweak notice how they work. That's the process behavior analyst experiment and see what works and then don't keep doing things that aren't working and keep doing things that are working also noticing that even with extinction burst right. We know that lots of other random stuff when it gets worse before it gets better and it doesn't mean that the procedure is broken. I would think a lot of the same kind of ideas that we've been discussing. Terms of working with parents would be true for us. Petitioners in terms of dealing with everything. That's going on and you know accepting some of the you know the thoughts about like you know certainly telehealth and i. I can't imagine anyone was like oh great telehealth. I'm a pro at telehealth this. I'm going to ride this pandemic out like a champ like most people. I'm sure are i thought was. I don't know how to do this new thing. What if i can't do this new thing. I'm not going to be able to do this new thing. I hate this new thing that i'm doing. I can only do so many webinars and read so many articles about it before. I need to actually do it myself. And it's scary. And maybe this isn't the field for me anymore. Maybe this pandemic may realize. I need to do something different with my practice right. It's it's that same. Note it space in the spiralling. I'm absolutely. I think working on yourself is the most important thing because you are. I mean if you just do that like think of the impact. 'cause you are the context for the parent when you're standing with them on. You're talking to them year the contacts therefore you are the point to change. You're not going to try and get inside that parents fix anything. So i think you if you just change. Your skill sat in your ability to notice the function of your behavior and use your words in a way that skillful given the context. And you're going to really impact the people that you work with including other practitioners. One thing i i know. I don't wanna leave this as kind of randomness road in there but one thing. I really want to emphasize with act is it is not again a bite making the hard stuff. Go away or better right just because you still feel rubbish. Doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong. The whole point of act is actually to make your life bigger like we talked about eight right so i i get a lot of people writing to me saying i've been doing all this act stuff and i'd be trying to have him in this really hard situation with work and i've been practicing septa as i'm trying to do this station trying to do this. And that's nice. I still feel overwhelmed. An account like i but you know the point of acceptance for example is not to feel better. It's okay if you don't feel better like this is not. The goal isn't to feel better. What are you doing differently. Are you doing the things that to are. You focusing on making your life bigger making getting that jar bigger around the hard stuff that is kind of the measure. The are you. Are you being more flexible. Are you doing more different things in the presence of thought hard stuff so i think really paying attention to that like asking yourself like am i running away from something and we're trying to make this better make it go away. Is all my energy going into struggling with stuff or is on my allying not to be there in the trying to figure out. What could i do differently. Because i've probably been struggling with. I mean with the pandemic. I personally have been struggling on obviously like everybody else. And it's not a worthwhile use of my time. Than i'm just kind of hitting my head against a brick qualify. You keep doing the same things over and over in china. Feel better and trying to feel better probably timed but just seemed important to say. I guess because when when you're talking there a bite the criticism unlike china figure this. I and i just was thinking the goal is not to feel better or great sometimes in the process that will happen and most times actually in the process. It will happen when you start doing other. Things like i mentioned. You're gonna come into contact with new sores reinforcement on newstalk starts to happen. But it's not. We're reporting or energy per se or moving to out self care to we touch with shane. Spiker about self care and he said some similar things which was self care isn't just about doing the things that you wanna do right sometimes. It's about doing the hard things that you need to do. So that you can move past them get yourself back to a place where you can be comfortable and not trying to claw out of your own body right absolute. Yes it's like you're operating with respect to a longer term goal or longer later bigger reinforcer rather than just the immediate. Like i gotta get outta here because that that immediate. Like i need to feel better. I gotta get outta here. Almost certainly points to in flexibility and aversive control. i'm very narrow repertoire of behavior. And i really liked that a lot like that episode. I think you make a great point though in terms of the thought of any sort of therapy or whether it's care or using act and i don't know if this is i'm just going to speak very specifically to someone who's grown up in new england if i'm getting help for you know whether i'm feeling overwhelmed or whether i feel like i'm psychologically flexible whatever the reason i'm thinking about like a goal i'm going to go see you. You're going to give me my tips. I'm gonna use those tips. And then i'm going to be better and i'll be fine forever after that and i think one of the reasons that i i know i find acts to be. You know what i've read and it's so fascinating compared to so many of the other types of you know behavior therapy that are out. There is that it's not that focus on that. it's you're going to continue to see adversity. It's not like this. You'll get the solution from me the therapist and then you'll go out and the problem will never come up again so much as how. Are you going to be able to respond to situations in the future. You know acknowledging that you're not escaping adversity like you said is the pandemic sort of the kind of environmental seachange for people where that is now something that you know. We may be more willing to hear than we were in the past when maybe we weren't thinking about know our values were more about you know more lofty goals than just getting through the next month or being stuck at home not having not kind of quote losing our minds by being stuck there. It's a really interesting question. And one of the thoughts i had was. I guess in a way. I could see that being probable for at least for privileged white people who haven't had to deal with that level with the level of uncertainty Difficulty that found democ brings before right so we can. If you're pretty comfortable generally and your day no k and you're privileged. You can quite easily pretend that there is no uncertainty and you can do about stuff to make yourself feel that you're in control and the you know you're getting kind of get that certain day and you aren't really being faced with as much adversity as other other populations have are constantly being faced with so i could see you know. We're the people white people with the money and ability to were more workers ended in academia. And what. I could see that being being the case from that perspective. That's the first thing that i thought there that there's a lot more people struggling with. Oh my strategies. Don't actually work. I've been like doing all the things i normally do. When i'm having a hard time and here we are six months later in. It's still. I'm still in the uncertainty and it's really hard and i'm having to be doing all these things don't have to j. or destroying in this way that i normally after struggle with so yes. I guess yes probably. That's probably trey and i. I'm not sure. I'm not sh-. I mean i guess sometimes you. Do you need a real massive kick. Don't you actually be like okay. Maybe i need to do something to i. Don't know if that answers at all or what you were thinking. What were you thinking about when you ask that question. I'm curious i guess that same idea of how easy it has been in the. I'd speak personally when i'm talking about things being easy when things were going to normal before and in terms of trying to think about my own values and how my values as a practitioner as a parent as a partner as person in society have shifted. And how i want my values to be still in line with who i wanna. I wanna be someone who helps that. That's the field. I'm in right as to really thinking about how i want to think about this as not a positive experience because certainly that i think would devalue how horrible horrible it is now again. Yup i'm a privilege white person that it hasn't been bad for me. Certainly but that i do want to think about what's a positive from this. It's like well something happened. That really you know i was safely at least able to face that what i typically do didn't work and how at least i can take from that. Well then there are other ways to do things and that's going to be okay and like like you've been saying this whole episode doesn't have to feel good. It's not a matter of now. I feel great about change. But i can accept that. That is a change that is going to happen. Okay that's that's fine. And where can i go from here. Yeah you're talking about resilience. I think on what we know already about these kinds of challenges are these you adverse events. Is that some people. It actually can be very empowering for some people some people come at the other end much more resilient than it can be really positive from that perspective depend you know we could go on what you mean by resilience are what do we mean by a positive outcome of all other conversation but there are certainly we know that that's the case we knew that adversity town result in just amazing stuff and also it doesn't. That's not the case for everybody. So i'm very aware that i think it is going to be. You know. People argon align a law of skills on. There's going to be other people who do not come the other side of this very well. And i'm i'm. I'm worried that the population i think particularly just i'm kind of briefs honestly honestly as a practitioner bracing myself for being overwhelmed and i certainly am aware from my perspective is not struggled my on our way it lists of just got bigger and bigger and bigger so there's also have witnessed that young people. Some of the teens. I've worked with the parents worked with have risen to the challenge on hav dumb. You know they're doing great. And i'm like wow that's awesome others not so i think we we still make out. I guess one thing. You're my hope for is that we do more research on will what is what's different about the people that if we if we strip away obviously socio-economic advantages and things like that is their differences in terms of psychological flexibility or things like that do predict hywel. Someone's gonna to do turn when they're faced with something like this. The viktor frankl quote in the new hot viktor frankl in. But that's that was the whole basis of viktor frankl's work. Cozma does just not his curiosity about what is it about. Some of the people in the concentration camp that allies them to continue to be resilient or two thri. Not thrive thrive in the sense of just being able to get through it not be crushed by that experience and he was so curious about that. But that's what he studied on lots. Were you know his he would. He didn't talk about valuing. But i think when i read his books stats what i see in there as the people who were able to connect. With those bigger huge burghley constructed reinforces or motivator motivating operations or whatever. We're able to stay connected with that to keep them behaving flexibly and moving through those experiences that those are the people that did best. Well let's go into the dissemination station because unfortunately we we're going to have to wrap up even though i think this is the topic or i'm just looking at crisis. We're not to get through all these questions. There's there's so there's so many things to talk about here but in the interest of having our artificial timeframe let's go to our dissemination station. Excuse were here. Wow took us so. It took us a long time to get here. It's amazing how that happens so typically what we do in this section is will ask if we have certainly have guest or if we're talking about research like what's the point or like what's big thing for everyone that they could do now and that feels a bit like anathema to the discussion. We've been having like tell everyone out there. What they should do. Differently doesn't really feel like the conversation we've been having in terms of like what's the tip that you're going to give everyone. I'm not quite sure how we want to kind of phrase the section of the show this time maybe whether it's a kind of a a resource or something you one of your thoughts that maybe you could share for everyone else's kind of modeling that self care. I'm not quite sure how how we wrap up today. Do you have any thoughts. Put you on the spot there. I'm sorry i would say one. One tip are one thing i could encourage. People do just moving forward would be just a practice noticing what you're responding to when you particularly when you're say a challenging situation with the parent like just asking yourself. What am i noticing on my on my noticing what i'm thinking. I noticed an emotion. What am i feeling in my body. Like what are i what. Where is the stimulus control right. And i like. What is it that i'm responding to. And what's showing up in that moment is is there more here than just the immediate contingencies as my history showing appearance on. Because it's a kind of curiosity i would say. Try to be curious about what is it. What's happening with the with self care. I guess start really small like with those tiny moments. I think that has been the most impactful thing for me. Particularly when i'm really feeling when i'm feeling overwhelmed on account do the things that i would normally do for self care like i can't go to my gym or i count really go running as i used to and. I can't do these things that i used today. Finding like those tiny moments of pleasure or tiny moments of meaning or just you know noticing the color of something on your wall. That's really that you love. I don't know just tiny things. If you can start there i think you start to enrich your life an any moment. You can kind of do that or any any moment. I can stop and slowed on and find something to attend to fully so yeah i would start there. I guess just to be count just to be kind. There's like no perfect way to do this. Just isn't everybody's going to have their different ways of moving through these kinds of challenges It's okay like there's no right way and we're all going to do it wrong. We're going to go off track like damn it. I didn't do that thing. That egeland sad and i and another reason to like beat ourselves up but then just let that go like that's it. This is just. This is hard and we're all. Were all doing it on. Everybody will find their way. The gas do of practicing self care and learning. These skills are i. That's good advice. Good advice i personally am a big fan of the like. Hey you know what. It's okay that i feel like i'm screwing up because i'm learning something new. I've gotten much better. It's saying that to myself rather than just go. I screwed up. Forget it's over. i quit. I won't do this anymore. You know and look at high high much understanding to say to yourself like i. I hate the way i feel right now. Because i'm having the thought by screwed up on. That means i get i get high. My parents must feel all time. I get my staff probably feel aunt common humanity peace. They're not empathy. Like you have the ability then to really understand what the other people are going through. Well thank you so much for coming on the show tonight. It has been very illuminating. And i think having you discussed many of the points in the articles really really points out. Just at least for me and i think jackie you're saying you felt the same way how quick i think we all are to sort of go to old patterns of like i read an article to find. These are the steps to follow. And how much more that there can be in synthesizing and taking that information and then practicing and modeling it in the future. So i know i'm i'm very happy that we had this opportunity because it's certainly a case where there was no way i was going to pick up all of this on my oath to having you here to guide me through like can i say one thing and that is just. It's okay to follow steps. Like i'm not saying they protocols can be useful right. That's okay to start there but the goal is if you're following steps notice high. They're working on shape that flexibility. So you're not gonna you know you can follow the steps in the article and that's fine and then just start tweaking. Start noticing and tracking learning the skills beyond the rules on the protocols. I guess there's nothing like inherently terrible about it stops you know. Be aware of the difference between following steps and working are you okay. Yeah i'm being applying. Rules early rigidly. Because we know we definitely we don't if we know one thing they were analyst. We should know by rigid rule following behavior. Oh yes that's very true so doctor even gould. Do you have either a contact information as people would like to to talk to you more about this topic or i don't know maybe you have another like a series of webinars coming out anything like that. That people could could look at to learn more about act. I weighed like to talk just mansion accumulative project of mine with the others authors of the self care article called a constellations but our goal is to. We're actually doing it right now. We're running a self care workshop. Training based based around the stuff from the article right now. But it's really our goal is really to create a community of practice or be brownless to connect with peers on share and help each other and support each other. And then within the we're also going to try to some trainings and consultation and supervision and all kinds of good stuff. So i would. I would just plug that. i'm also just. I'm i'm so honored to be doing with people. Like siri main julia fee. Bagan rebecca watts. And so it's constellations dot net. I believe it's we are constellations are constellations. Not not i think and if you want to find out more you can also email us. Constellations office Jameel once again big. Thanks to dr. Evelyn gould for coming on and talking with us about act. Time of covid again just subject that i know we are also very interested in continuing to learn more about and i was definitely a time where just reading the articles. There's so much there but then getting a chance to talk more about the content of it is just double the value. I think in those articles. So thank you again dr gould and with that it brings us to the end of another episode of aba inside track before we wrap up. I wanna give you that second secret code word. It is lemonade. L. e. m. o. n. a. d. e. lemonade please. It's really good lemonade. It's a minor quote but anyone who can email us where that minor minor quote came from from popular. Show you get mega kudos and a shoutout on a future episode. So yes we've already said big. Thanks once again to dr gould. Also thanks to jackie and dan and thank you so much to you for listening we hope you enjoyed. Aba inside track. Why not subscribe to the show. Wherever you get your podcast apple podcasts spotify stitcher. If you're interested we also really really love to hear from you. There are a lot of ways you can do that. Certainly by leaving us review on any of your podcast places of choice you can also find us on. Social media were everywhere as aba inside track whether it's facebook instagram. Pinterest or twitter. You can find these posted on our on youtube page. Aba inside track with the youtube subtitling feature. You can certainly go to our website. Aba inside track dot com to get links to all of the articles discussed in our episodes as well as to purchase sees. And if you're interested in aba inside tracks episodes want even more content. Well why not subscribe on our patriot. Patriot dot com slash. Aba inside track for for just five dollars a month. You're able to join us for social meet. Ups with us and other behavior analysts every other month as well as at higher tiers you can get some extra long book club podcasts. We at the time of this release. We should have just finished recording or should be coming up pretty soon. Our talk on the book. Neuro tribes by steve silberman. So if you'd like some more content you can find that their patron dot com slash. Aba inside track. Thanks to dr. Jim car for his recording of our intro. An out tro music to street for our interstitial music. Dan thabit of the podcast doctors for editing and hollis workshop for his visual design. We'll be back next week with another full length episode or until then responding by

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Break The Rules #79: Facing the Virus for Patients with Autoimmune Disease, Lyme, Mold & Other Complex Illnesses with Dr. Mark Sanders

Break The Rules

34:14 min | 1 year ago

Break The Rules #79: Facing the Virus for Patients with Autoimmune Disease, Lyme, Mold & Other Complex Illnesses with Dr. Mark Sanders

"Welcome to break the rules. We Dr Loren Lacks podcast dedicated. Quieting the noise in the health food and fitness world doctor warned is leading nutritionist therapist and Functional Medicine Practitioner on a mission to help others thrive in their own lives mind body and soul. And now your host Dr Laura Money. Well hello welcome to another at the break deals podcast where we talked about fighting the noise and health food and fitness world and today. I'm Super Honored Hog Dr Mark Sanders and the House and Dr. Sanders has been in medicine for a naturopathic medicine for a very very long time. He's very hinsch. In especially complex illness in is actually how I met Dr Sanders when I was going through my own and have continued. Go through my own healing journey from mold and lime in. He is a specialist in his areas. has also worked in research from alcohol detoxification cancer and Dr Sanders. I just know you have so many tools in your tool belt. Enzyme really excited conversation with you today. Talking a lot about dealing with complex only as a chronic illness in light of the Kobe. Nineteen storm that we have all been going through the tasks month-to-month now several weeks for sure but Wing slowly making its way here. Dr Sanders is also on the line. Up in New York is area so he's GonNa given some thoughts from the line as well Dr Sanders. Thanks so much for coming on. If you just give us a little bit more background about who you are and one got you into doing the work you're doing in the world. Thank you Dr Loren us. Great to be part of the PODCAST. Yes I started practicing gothic medicine about two thousand two. I kind of looked at myself more than ECLECTIC doctor. A lot of doctors tend to specialize in certain therapies. And of course. When I was in school I fell in love with everything from Diet. Herbs to Home Yep sued attrition Physical Medicine and so I just adopted to do it all or it's a little challenging but I what I find. Is that different therapies resonate with different people and so I have a lot of things to choose from as opposed to just doing one thing in trying to make that work. When doesn't always work great with everybody so as just a little bit about my background there? Before getting into notch aquatic medicine Directory like you always WanNa grow up and be a doctor. Which were you on the path deal. Yeah I I had wanted to become a doctor. My grades weren't quite of the place where I could get into med school so I decided that I went to research instead in. That's kind of what I was doing for about Well thirteen years and working with other medical professionals doctors. Phd's Doing some really interesting stuff. I kinda got out of it in about ninety. Six because of funding was getting cut. Left right and center and The doctor that I was working with his funding cut completely out. So that's when I decided. Okay it's time to make a change at and I was actually applying medical schools at the same time that my younger son was having a lot of Ron ICK ear infections and my wife and I saw to go alternative. Which was a big switch for me because I was very mainstream worked in a hospital. Basically so that was always around and we went to a homeopath and He did amazing like it blew my mind. How well he did. No ear infections And when when he did get an ear infection you know is taking care of with only back medicines fairly quickly. So that's when I talked to my wife. I said look. I don't think I can go to medical school anymore. Because of what I now and so she found out about Nature Pathak School in her travels in. I looked at the curriculum realized I could learn homeopathy and he a medical professional in four years and so I decided okay. That's that's where as one half so that's where I went and Your I am several years later practicing what I do. Love every part of it You know the hardest part is keeping up with the information and and You know learning new things as passion as well so I keep adding more and more stuff so never end. Well let's get into it so as far as learning right now. We're learning a lie in still like researching ally on the current paradigm with this. Recent virus swept the world. What learning over the past couple of weeks even as it's become more and more apparent in New York I think you know we're kind of in a unique situation because we're getting it really hard. Of course you know. New York City is highly populated and very densely populated which is a perfect environment for a virus to take over as many people. As can. I think I originally was Working with people testing people looking for ways to Stop people from getting the virus and I think I've changed my attitude in the sense. That what I've been seeing is that when you have symptoms you are you've already been infected. Probably it'd be for a week or two weeks so whoever's around you is probably got it as well as just Abo- Proliferative end so contagious So I've kind of adopted a new philosophy that if one person in family guests it probably all have it is just not detectable. Yeah and so once one somebody gets it. We start treating the whole family and using more natural substances. And you know the hard part. Is that what they're saying? I think is true. That eighty percent of the people won't have symptoms or have minor symptoms. And I usually I have a few bullet. Kinda kick back a little bit in terms of me telling them that they have the virus In my you know my thought is well. You don't WanNa be part of the twenty percent. That's you know is. GonNa get it bad enough where you end up on a ventilator so think that's causing enough for people to take precautions and take care of themselves and you know take some extra supplements and Herbs. That will help them in terms of any well as well as far as like guiding people on Supplementation in such like. There's been a slew of so much information at least Help world like herbs supplements things to take And we're still understanding the buyers to like what actually does impacted or not Anything that you have found a nuclear anecdotally. So far is that seems to be an effective at whether we call it experiment or not for helping people through community feel stronger. Well I think there's a lot out there I feel that And this is just. I'M GONNA step on my soapbox a little bit. Because in the world of Madison viruses are really bad thing in the conventional world. Because there's not many there's barely any treatments. The ones that are out there are really strong and they have lots of side effects and so they don't use them very often. Somebody's really sick But in in the natural world's any plant Freddie much would have some antiviral compounds in it. Because you know if you think about it in terms of what they're exposed to the plants are exposed to viruses just like we are and they have to Maintain themselves and so they make compounds a killer. Virus eats them alive. We ingest those lance and we also get those anti viral components from that plan as well as other things that man boosts our immunity or Support certain symptoms. So I think in thinking about natural medicine in general anything. That's a plant origin. That's GONNA be growing in any areas. Probably GonNa have some anti viral properties. Some of them are more than others. What I've heard and I've been using is a couple things that I did. I heard one from China they were using lemongrass allot whether it's tea form or liquid extra form I think the tea form is just as good as the extract form. Because you're As long as you're brewing properly which would be more like a ten minute. Boil as opposed to Hot Water on a get the medicinal properties out from that still. Oiling is going to get those out and you just have to do it a little longer to make sure you get everything so I've used Dandelions I think the hard part from my perspective is Ben that this situation has brought out a lot of different attitudes different people and What I've been trying to do is get a cheer of treatments set up so that in one is not available. There's another one that's right that I can replace it with and There are lots of different things that people can do. That are still available to certainly help them. Support them in that in. I'm sure you know lemongrass. Pretty easy to find. People are grown. I actually had a patient. I told her about it. And she's like Oh. I'm actually growing that right now. So I'll just start harvesting anything in your spice rack. Rosemary thyme sage all of those have anti viral properties. You just throw on your T. Or and brew with it You could certainly put it in your food Get One more of those compounds out so in a vitamins certainly vitamin C. At the top of the list. By the D- Even vitamin E. can be helpful. Maybe more of the antioxidant properties are helpful. That so I think you know. There's a lot of great medicines out there unfortunately in the hospitals and things they just are not really looking at those things as being supportive and I think it could really help people who are really sick to not to allow them to progress to having to be on a ventilator for twenty days or so so interesting actually was making a return yesterday at Walmart is walking in very rarely Walmart and everyone is of course like six eight hundred Bill to contaminated your. It's average Joe America into the nutritionist. I tend to look in the Grocery Carts. Nc Like what's in people's pockets and it's still like the Ding dongs and nuts says a hungry man dinners that America that they're stocking up on and just a really interesting lay of the land is something I've wondered is like those the people that are on the ventilators or is it. Is this disease really not discriminating? So much like whether you had is diet or not well. I don't know that I can tell you everybody. You know but what I see is that you know people that are much more a status about what they eat in now. It's not something that's out of a box that they're doing. They're doing pretty good. I have a big population of patients that have lime disease and multi society in parasites and or all of them combined. And so it's to me. That's a higher risk population. Because it is affecting their immune system it is going to increase inflammation which is going to affect them. Wow so and there are a lot of those people already working on their diets and things like that so I don't talk as much about that. It's more about supportive care but I think if you are. You know eating out of a box every day all day and drinking you know. That's sugar itself is going to slow your immune system. That's been researched documented for years and years so anybody's doing that is probably setting them up. They might not necessarily be on a ventilator but they're more likely to have stronger symptoms and You know the last thing you want is to be carried to hospital for a possible pneumonia and there's really not much they can I've had some patients who have been kind of border line in terms of pneumonia. Call me after the fact that they got rejected by the hospital industrial nation. For some how you know. Sometimes that's how sometimes how it attention you know not necessarily chasing the ambulance but people are really really sick. And they're really afraid and they'll do anything including call me. Yeah I am. I mean I think I had a touch of with Kobe. Elite. For four everything up in the country or people started looking at My own mold journey in very much respiratory involves the tend to be my symptoms and so initially. That's what I talked it out to be but I had just moved to a clean home. Finally after testing nominee I know the home itself does not have mould an so asthma respiratory symptoms began to heighten It scare me and so I did go to the are on a Friday night in. They just talked it up as like. We don't know what the says must be like anonymous players but the thing that was different for me that I never had before was a fever and I don't tend to get sick of never had the flu in my life and so I went home with this fever about one hundred and then just continue to have And just like realizing like the doctor saying can help me and it was not a new drug relation having gone through mold and everything which is really turned to like. What are the tools on one of the foundations than I can really do? Unlike I always go back to the gut being the gateway community started just hammering on my support from a probiotic and taking some antimicrobial herbs as about immune support and it was the next week that the Cohen started to blow up in within that time had gone to three different doctors to er visits known would test needing because they don't have enough tests in Austin In just like began to gradually come out of it. It was about fifteen days that that lasted in whether I had it or not. I know I have never had them symptoms before Even having gone through a mold staff with the fever lasting I get dead and so kind of just like say that as encouragement the listeners. In someone that's lime in Malysz non-immunity that really when given the right tools on our bodies He'll and I think that's part of your approach. Dr Sanders as well as you to go back to whether the whatever the disease name is like water this interview you could kind of talk to our listeners about some of those foundations that you your practitioner brain goes to in line of say a virus or an immune condition etc like where the foundations dot com support a body feeling. Well I think that a basic foundation as you talked about and you did exactly what you should have done in that case I would say you know the God is certainly number one doing getting right nutrition in eating fresh vegetables fruits Clean proteins and things like that. That are on nutritious and Not Necessarily full chemicals that certainly number one priority. I think you know it kind of goes along with exercise movement fitness. Getting out getting fresh air getting saen getting vitamin D Kind of the basics. Rest you know lots of sleep a care of yourself. These stress is much as you can One of the things that we were doing and Mike Connecticut Office for the past couple was a kind of on the side. I do sound healing so I actually had. I have like a glass crystals I play flutes and drums. And so I put together a an hour of sound healing on just two We did a livestream. Facebook live and just threw that out there for people. Because it's really there's a lot going on. People are stressed or not getting a lot of answers. It's confusing and of course all that certainly reflects to Our immunity you know goes down with conflict or trauma or you know what we're seeing you know and I had to kind of stop myself as well and just be engaged with what I was doing because I needed it to You know when you start seeing the numbers all infections going up to ten thousand. Forty thousand in other deaths are increasing and You know it just it's gut wrenching to hear that and so You know emotional. Health is is certainly a part of that as well. I think any kind of plant medicine or vitamins or nutrients are certainly going to build up system and help your body to defend itself. A lot better I think kind of the the the secret weapon that we have is putting them all together. You know some people do one thing and they expected to do everything you know. If you're taking a bazillion supplements but your diet is such that. You're eating things out of a box. It helps but you're still you know is still an insult and it's still going to affect you. I think the taking care of all of us you know in in terms of who we are. That's a much better approach and a much more holistic approach than just picking and choosing. You know I'm just GonNa take a bunch of vitamin C and hope for the basketball bones. Still GonNa Drink my ears folks. Not that there's anything wrong with those things to in on a very mild sense but in in in the tap that live in right now I think it's much more important for us to eat healthy and let those things said on the shelf as companies are GonNa do find eventually but to really focus on things that are going to build up our bodies. The sad thing is I think you know there is a way. That's going to be sweeping across the United States. We have just begun in New York looking at another week of this and I think the wave is going to continue to go so people really do need to take seriously and take the measures to take care of themselves. It's been really interesting. I don't know what the groceries was like. They're on together. Farmers Markets Day which is awesome to see like the fresh produce is coming back to the grocery store scene to becoming more back. Live as Austin Austin. We've done shelter in place so they said one sorry. One kind of sporting things or loading up on. We'll out of the box things do that. The breed so like eating healthy is something. That's still within the realm and kind of wetter. Some superfoods people could be implementing more right. Now I think again is kind of what's available would say that. There's a lot of Delivery Foods that you can get that are really helpful. So you don't have to go out you know. My wife has set us up for this company called misfits. is basically a delivery of fruits and vegetables. That probably wouldn't sell in a store because they look funny and so they send the you know basically get a box of produce you know delivered doors. You're not necessarily going out to shop. Somebody's dropping it off in so that's kind of anything he can do. Mail order. I think is helpful but I think the morning Tristesse food is going to be the fresh produce if you can't do that than frozen certainly You know I hate to bash every kind of food you know there is canned food even has its place you know stores and has i. It's probably not as probably the only thing that maybe on the shelf. I duNno jarred food. But at least if if you're getting you know things like based more on vegetables and and that Kinda thing. You're probably going to do a lot better than you know. Spam probably isn't gonNA quite fit for a nutritious meal. Maybe at some point that will be hopefully. That's not the only thing that we have to choose from. Yeah just color olding carriage five to seven types of these a day possible which is not. I think one in ten Americans. It's three or four months to the day in their diet and saw we may be presumed that the choir right now. A lot of listeners are very health conscious on this podcast and kind of want to go back to talking a little bit more about those with chronic illness already. That may be living in this kind of fighter flight. Fear of light will what happens if I get it because I actually am an address population in like I would say the majority of Americans actually are at miscalculations. Do probably present. How chronic illness In our country in general but for those again that are already very health. Conscious do have challenges It's been interesting. We even with supplement companies as you may have seen as well as a lot of obstacles things slowly coming back. Martin is doc but what are you saying urge for your patients that are just more challenged entering into this war against Kobe? Did well. I would say the the best weapon you have would be somebody. Who's in your corner? You know who is is a healthcare practitioner that focuses more on natural madison. I make a nature path. That could be a herbal medicine. Person could be even somebody who does yoga. Who's very health conscious? You know having somebody who's knowledgeable navy knows you. Do you can at least bounce off ideas and you know get ideas from you know nutritionists. Of course somebody like you perfect. Everybody should be calling you in Texas. But I think that's really helpful. You know somebody you can talk to. You can trust you get a little bit more calm. Understanding of what's going on not panic about it I think with was kind of in a positive way for people who are in kind of the category of line molds other chronic illnesses is that most of them already are dealing with somebody who is helping them and I think a lot of the amazingly a lot of herbal medicines that are used in lyme disease actually will get will attack the Ronin virus so a lot of times. I'm checking in with the more than I am telling them. More things to take or I might increase their quantities of whether taking but A lot of it's me is checking on how things are going. How they're feeling that is I. Don't leave nothing to chance in that. Regard our feeling sick. I WanNa know and so I get a lot of text messages. Get lots of emails some constantly checking those throughout the day and I think that helps them a lot To some sort of comfort knowing that it's not just them kind of fighting in the dark. Say Yeah that's the best advice someone corner and that's not Dr. Google illness really. Google is not a good doctor. I'm helping Nice right now. Anyways right why such an opportunity. I- seve or Dysfunctional Care Integrative Care Alternative carrot now early because healthcare saying we really can't help you can like maintain you and we can try to mitigate symptoms. There's not many answers. I think it's just so interesting. In telling of our society who has warlike general public is hungry for this vaccine or the the medicine answer and greatly those things there medicine can be used very smartly wisely and at the same time right now there is the opportunity or like. What are the tools that we do? Unhelpfully also integrate those That can can be very effective in just busey immunity and supporting the foundations to district. I guess put listeners. Dot Com is that You're not just like a bystander. Waiting to get the disease Gloom and doom happen and I know doctors energy. You've been seeing individuals that have had touches this in families being a mitigate Yeah I mean there is a lot of fear and I think To me is not a bad thing. You know people respect what's going on and it does raise a lot of fears. I think the The the key thing is again kind of reiterating that a lot of people are GonNa get this saying but you know. There's a percentage of people that are going to progress not everybody progresses. So that's the positive thing again. You Still WanNa take steps to take care of yourself through it so that you don't become WanNa the percentages that regress and you know anything you can do to distress and to spend time with your family and have fun and all that I think is really important to just finding the joy and being stuck at home. I know that my wife and I as been interesting to. She's working from home. I'm working from home. Not Driving to Connecticut anymore. We cut out this week so I'll be home or time being and just doing video conferences in video appointments with people so. I'm sure that you know it's nice to be able to get some time with her that I don't normally get as well so again. The opportunities it's Beautiful Day here in Austin for example in even US slowing down saving time with that commute even not two hours a one hour each way or whatever is will what would be Dr Standard Sanders. Just like your ideal amusing stacks than generally can benefit most people especially those that again have more complex D- immune system's already on immunity lime mold etc. I think I there's a couple of things that I really like I part of it is people getting the right nutrients to make sure that their bodies are supported. there's some easy ways to do that. Juicing is probably the best way to do that. Of course you need a lot of produce in order to make some juice And in a May Be Realistic. Now may not realistic now. The five pounds of Carris. That you're GONNA be looking for a probably won't either certainly a little bit of juicing go a long way in terms of nutrients you get a lot from the Greens and all the rooted vegetables and things like that so I think that's united talked a lot about juicing. Smoothies are not the same but they still have some nutrients in there. So they're good to different I definitely in terms of of Supplements that I look at more Would be things that Plants that have more of a nutrient status to them that are on a more generalized on things. Like Yaro and Nettles ANYTHING. That's a leaf. Green Leaf is going to be helpful Whether it's the tea or whether it's You know a liquid extract the difference between the two in terms of what I would recommend would be if somebody has a lot of digestive issues. You know having tee or a cat like a capsule. There's a big difference between a capsule ITEA and a tincture. Taking capsules is not gonNA extract everything. That's from that herb. If they have a compromise digestive system. So you're much better off doing teason. Tinctures I'm going to get a lot more out than not So if you really really need the most of what you're GonNa get from that the earth than you probably want to go more with tinctures but You know it's funny because I use so many different tools Is Hard to kind of. I've probably not like a lot of other practitioners because they have these in sheets with everything. I don't give people those things because what I'm thinking is okay. What's the most important thing for this patient? So everything is typically handwritten because individualized for patient. That I'm really looking at you know what's going on but I think general health you know you're looking at things that are nutrient based and You know in that way you're GONNA YOU'RE GONNA get more out of it. Um to support your systems dude. I need I absolute good. Food Co. Sanders. Thanks so much for coming on. Gracing us with your presence in your knowledge Thank you for also Allen calming the fear Storm Too. I think there's a lot of fear. Doom and gloom out there in the people is that given the right. Triple your body in neatly wants to Yon Bite in. Live in harmony too. I think this is a testing time for a lot of us and I'm really hoping that you know that there's GonNa be a change of attitude even within the medical community to be a little more open minded alternatives because of what they've experienced. I'm that's my hope that you know we learned from this. That's why we are lifelong students for sure. We'll Dr Sanders American folk. Signed out more by you and your Doing a world. I have a facebook page. It's marked Sanders. Andy Trinity Wellness Center on. So you can find some info on there. I'm also on airfield family health DOT COM on. That's my Connecticut Office. So there's some info on me there as well and so I work in two different places there about forty five miles away from each other but they keep me busy. Yeah I will definitely put this length. Shoutout inks again in. How thank you you too?

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A Diet for Bipolar Disorder

The Carlat Psychiatry Podcast

07:50 min | 10 months ago

A Diet for Bipolar Disorder

"This week we're podcasting daily from the International Society, for Bipolar Disorders Twenty Twenty conference will we've been scouring the virtual holes for all? That is practical and newsworthy. The yield is high so tune in for a new episode every day today I'm published results on a new diet bipolar disorder. Welcome to the car psychiatry podcast keeping psychiatry honest since two thousand and three. On critic and the Editor in Chief of the Carl Psychiatry. And I'm Kelly Newsom, a psychiatric nurse, practitioner and dedicated reader if every issue. This was a first. Erica Saunders from the University of Pennsylvania, Hershey and colleagues reported on preliminary results from a landmark trial. A dietary treatment of bipolar disorder. The diet she used his already been successfully tested in Migraines and to understand it. You need to know the difference between Omega three and Omega six fatty acids, both of these have important roles in health and brain function so neither one is good or bad. It's the balance that matters specifically. It's healthier to have more Omega three than Omega six, but in the typical western Diet that balances out of whack. There are fourteen to twenty five times more omega, six fatty acids than omega, three fatty acids in the Diet that most of us are consuming. This problem is made worse for people with bipolar disorder because they don't metabolize these fatty acids like the average person does. So Dr Saunders speculated that raising Omega three and lowering Omega six might improve mood in bipolar patients. We already know that, Omega three helps bipolar and depression as the popular supplement fish oil, which has proven effective in half a dozen Meta analyses although with a small affect size. What we've never seen is how a dietary approach will work, and what would happen if Omega six was intentionally lowered while we raise the Omega three. Both Omega six and Omega three are essential fatty acids, which means the body can't make them, so we need to get them from a dietary source and both play a role in brain development. and. Here's another interesting background fact mood stabilisers, actually lower Omega six levels and Omega six might cause depression by promoting inflammation while Omega three is anti-inflammatory. Now for the preliminary results of Dr Sanders trial, this was a randomized double blind controlled trial of eighty two patients with bipolar disorder that compared to diets. The treatment diet was high on her mega three and loan Omega Six. The other group, the control group was given Omega three and six in a ratio. The reflects the usual American Diet. Already one thing in that designs sets it apart from other studies in nutritional psychiatry, usually in these kinds of studies, the patients know if they're getting the dietary intervention. But in this study both groups were taught to eat a scientifically designed diet, which improves on the double blind, and these diets were very controlled. Not only did they have guidance from dieticians. They were also given much of the food. They ate such as snacks that were carefully calibrated to have the intended ratios of Omega three and six. This was a small study of eighty two patients thirty percent of whom dropped out with equal dropout rates in both arms. They were mainly white in the early forties with an equal male to female ratio about half were unemployed. They tended toward the slightly obese side with an average BMI of thirty. The outcome measure they used was unique subjects rated their mood daily on a smartphone, using a simple visual analog scale. They raided seven items mood, energy, thoughts, impulsivity, anxiety, irritability, and physical pain. They measured pain because Omega six can increase prostate Linden's which are associated with increased pain levels. The primary outcome was the degree that mood energy impulsively very day to day. So. That's actually three separate primary outcomes and the results she got were mixed. They were positive for variability in mood and energy, but negative for very ability and impulsivity, which actually improved in the control group. There is also no difference in an important secondary measure, the change in average mood from start to twelve weeks. This is an ongoing study with plans to follow these patients for an entire year, so these results are very preliminary. At only the twelve week interval we should know a lot more after year as the authors are also gathering a truck load of biomarkers related to the Diet including monthly stool cultures to look for changes in the microbiome blood tests for inflammatory markers, ACTA, graphic measures of movement kind of like a fitbit and even cerebrospinal fluid. The bottom line we know that a healthy diet helps depression, but we don't yet know which ingredients are the most important. This study is testing the idea that the Omega three to six ratio matters and bipolar disorder, and the results are too preliminary to draw conclusions at this time, but short of that we already have a diet that's ready for Palm, time and depression, the Mediterranean Diet, and from what we know about bipolar disorder. This diet should work there as well although it hasn't been clinically tested. The Mediterranean approach discourages the main foods that are driving the Omega six overload in society. Process snacks fast foods, cakes, fatty meats, and cured meats, and it has proven effective in three controlled trials of depression with moderate to large effect size. This diet does have some healthy foods that are surprisingly high in Omega six nuts, seeds Avocados and Tofu but worry. Not Those healthy foods have a healthy balance of Omega three as well. It's the junk food. That's causing the Omega six problem. We cover the Mediterranean Diet last year in an interview with the lead investigator, Felisa Jacka listened to our June, third, twenty nineteen podcast, or check out our may twenty nineteen issue it breaks down the specific. Food Recommendations as Dr, Jack as team altered the Mediterranean Diet to emphasize brain, friendly ingredients, and make it easier for people with depression to follow. Tune in tomorrow for new findings on an anti inflammatory medication in bipolar depression. We'll have more updates in a print issue including unpublished results on a new medication, PA-, bi-polar depression and a full review of the midafternoons finals in bipolar disorder. podcast listeners can get thirty dollars off the annual subscription with Promo Code podcast. That's only capitals. Subscription will earn you continuing education credits and help us stay free of industry support. Where trying out a new format this week by bringing, you shorted nuggets in daily episodes, and maybe we should keep a daily if you like it that way. Let us know by a review in your podcast store.

bipolar depression Omega depression Mediterranean Diet bipolar Bipolar Disorders Twenty Twent bipolar disorder impulsivity Erica Saunders Carl Psychiatry Kelly Newsom Migraines Editor in Chief International Society University of Pennsylvania Dr Sanders Hershey Jack
Near-Death Experiences Pt. 2

Unexplained Mysteries

32:36 min | 2 months ago

Near-Death Experiences Pt. 2

"In may two thousand thirteen. The newly graduated students of my trip college in portland oregon watched as their commencement speaker took the stage. It was his holiness. The dalai lama wrapped in a long robe. The dalai lama spoke about how buddhist teachings categorize unexplained events according to him. The first category is called evident phenomena. These are events that can be observed and measured because the can be felt by one or more of the five senses. The second category is hidden phenomena. We can't physically sense these episodes but we can infer the existence through observation or measurement for example gravity or magnetism the third category is extremely hidden phenomena. These can be measured at all neither directly nor indirectly. The only evidence we can ever have is through our own first person experience or by hearing someone else's eyewitness account the dalai lama directly referenced. Another man on the graduation stage renowned neurosurgeon. Dr evan alexander. The physician was there to discuss his experience with an extremely hidden phenomena near death. Experiences in two thousand eight alexander went into a seven day coma and when he awoke he claimed he traveled to heaven. The dalai lama finished his speech with a call to action in the case of extremely hidden phenomena. Like dr alexander's are human. Duty is to investigate because if we find quantifiable evidence for indie ease then we can prove the existence of heaven itself Welcome to unexplained mysteries a spotify original from podcast. I'm your host molly. And i'm your host richard in life. There's so much we don't know but in this show we don't take no for an answer. Every tuesday and thursday we investigate the greatest mysteries of history and life on earth. You can find episodes of unexplained mysteries and all other spotify originals from podcast for free on spotify or wherever. You listen to podcasts. This is our second episode on near death experiences or indie ease as the name suggests these rare occurrences are most often reported by individuals who have survived the brink of death. Many and andy reports include out of body experiences interactions with dead relatives and seeing a tunnel of light that leads to another plane of existence. Last time we explored well-known cases of md's such as the story of anita more johnny in two thousand six her miraculous near death. Experience inspired her to write a new york times bestselling book about how her spiritual journey helped her beatcancer. This time will try to determine whether andi are the brains natural response to extreme trauma or proof that our souls outlive our bodies. We have all that and more coming up. Stay with us accounts of near death. Experiences can be polarizing indie. Most often happened while people are unconscious so researchers are incredibly limited in what they can actually measure. They must rely on human testimony to fill in. What's actually happening in other words. Andy ease exist near the intersection of two seemingly contradictory ideas science and faith which is why after a neurosurgeon reported in n. d. e. it became central to the conversation in nineteen eighty eight. Dr eban alexander began his career in boston at one of the most prestigious hospitals in the country. Brigham and women's well working as a neurosurgeon. Dr alexander simultaneously target his father's alma mater. Harvard medical school in both institutions. He had access to some of the most cutting edge medical technology in the world. Soon dr alexander became an expert in a non invasive. Surgical treatment called stereo tactic. Radio surgery a procedure that uses targeted radiation to address medical abnormalities. In the brain it can even eliminate tumors without needing to open the skull in his own practice. Doctor under-used stereo tactic. Radio surgery to treat cancer. Epilepsy mentoring nerves and tangled blood vessels and for nearly a decade in the field of medicine. His star was on the rise until two thousand one when an elderly woman from arizona. Whom will call. Rose contacted him to remove a benign tumor in her brain. Dr alexander was one of the few surgeons in the country capable of performing the procedure. So rose flew from arizona all the way to boston but she didn't receive the treatment that she expected when rose arrived at the hospital orderlies placed her in a wheelchair and brought her into the operation. Room apparently no one spoke to her or explain what was happening. After doctors strapped into a device rendering it immobile rose demanded to meet. Dr eben alexander. She was about to go under and he had yet to introduce himself mere minutes before the operation began. Dr alexander stepped in front of her said. Hello and assured her that she was in good hands then she drifted into unconsciousness and the surgery began when rose woke up in the icu. She couldn't move the left side of her face. Dr alexander never warned her about the risks associated with her surgery and though he'd successfully eliminated her tumor half of her face was now permanently paralyzed. Ultimately rose filed a lawsuit. Her lawyers asked to see the paperwork she'd signed before entering surgery. But apparently dr alexander could only produce a single sheet of paper. It didn't even have rose's signature on it. Apparently dr alexander had misplaced a number of her forms. The case was eventually settled out of court shortly after. Brigham and women's fire dr alexander from their roster administrators have not stated whether or not the dismissal was related to the lawsuit. Either way dr alexander moved on to work for umass memorial medical center located in worcester massachusetts. Where apparently his careless behavior continued during one operation. Dr alexander reportedly left a small piece of plastic inside a woman's nick. In addition to the pain this caused her she needed another intensive surgery to have it removed then in august two thousand three umass suspended dr sanders for an error made during an operation. On another patient's brain stem the specific details surrounding. These punitive measures remain confidential by early two thousand seven. Dr alexander relocated to lynchburg virginia and began work as a staff surgeon at lynchburg general hospital but his lack of professionalism and care continued on march first a fifty four year old farmer whom will call. George arrived at lynchburg complaining about a pain in his neck and upper arm. Dr alexander recommended as spinal decompression surgery this involved fusing georgia's fifth and sixth vertebrae together but during the actual procedure. Dr alexander fused the wrong vertebrae together. He didn't even realize his mistake until weeks. Later during georgia's follow up appointment. At which point he decided to withhold the information entirely. In fact dr alexander then went back and altered the surgical documentation to make. It seem like he'd done nothing wrong. Months passed before in october. Two thousand seven. Dr alexander told george about the mistake. He offered to perform a corrective surgery for free but shortly after lynchburg general hospital suspended him in august. Two thousand eight almost one year later. George filed a three million dollar lawsuit against dr alexander accusing him of negligence battery fraud and altering a legal document. When asked why he didn't immediately tell the farmer about the botched surgery. Dr alexander claimed he was interested in the post operative improvements george made. He claimed he wanted to study the transformative power of the placebo effect. But before dr alexander gave his first deposition his own health took a turn for the worse. It started as a simple headache but by the morning of november ten. Th two thousand eight the pain. Dr alexander's head was unrelenting issue. Ricky coli otherwise known as e coli had invaded the lining of his central nervous system. The bacteria was now surrounding his brain and spinal cord. As dr alexander's immune system released white blood cells to fight off the attack. His brain swelled with fluid by the time. Dr alexander arrived at the er. He was completely incoherent and his body spasms out of control as his health hit rock bottom. His life apparently changed forever. Dr eban alexander had a near death experience coming up. dr alexander. claims heaven is real listeners. This month marks sixty years since john f. kennedy became the thirty fifth president of the united states ushering his already prominent family into the highest enclaves of political power but behind their storied. Successes lie secrets and scandals so severe. If it were any other lineage they would have been left. In ruin this january to commemorate this iconic milestone dig into the dramas of a real life american dynasty in the spotify original from podcast. The kennedy's crime history mystery. This exclusive series from spotify features. Your favorite podcast hosts including me examining one of the world's most formidable families from all angles. Whether it's assassinations and conspiracies corruption and cover ups international affairs and extra marital wants to discover all of the kennedy family's most controversial moments. All in one place you can. Binge all twelve episodes of this limited series starting on tuesday january nineteenth followed the kennedys free and exclusively spotify. Bow back to the story on november tenth. Two thousand eight. Paramedics rush dr alexander to the hospital with a severe case of bacterial meningitis e. coli was attacking his brain and central nervous system. As doctors fought to save his life. His body went into a coma. Six days later he woke up but while unconscious he claimed he'd experienced something miraculous as he teetered. Between life and death he caught a glimpse of heaven. Dr alexander described floating over a green countryside on the wings of a giant butterfly. A beautiful woman road the insect with him as sentient orbs of light floated above them according to dr alexander. He suspected these were angels. The butterfly drifted towards a black void whereas singular light glowed in the center. The longer the flight lasted the more. Dr alexander became aware of everything a wash in a warm loving light. Dr alexander felt blessed with omniscience and he understood the comforting glow was god and that he and god or a shared being according to dr alexander in this state he knew the answers to life's greatest mysteries including the origins of humanity and the meaning of life then as quickly as it become graced with them. Nisshin's he began to float downward away from god. He descended into a brown muck and there in the mud. Dr alexander saw the blurry faces of doctors in an operating room. Soon enough he was back on earth. At first dr alexander felt confused lying on a starched hospital mattress. He experienced what's commonly referred to as icu psychosis in the days after his traumatic medical procedures. He frequently hallucinated and had difficulty forming coherent thoughts in time however he made a full recovery and after believing he'd seen heaven. Dr alexander became a changed man while poring over books about indie ease. He found a story about a little girl who claimed to have encountered a deceased sibling whom she never met in life. This in particular struck a chord with dr alexander. Dr alexander was adopted in though he never met his biological siblings. His birth parents once sent him a photo of his biological sister. They too had never met before she passed. The story prompted dr alexander to look for that picture of his sister again when he found it he realized that his sister was the woman he'd seen on the butterfly like the little girl he'd read about his near death. Experience reunited him with a long lost sibling today. Most scientists agree that prior to dying. Something likely happens inside the brain. It's just unclear. What in two thousand and thirteen researchers at the university of michigan induced cardiac arrest in a number of rats and monitored their brains reactions within thirty seconds many experienced a significant uptick inactivity apparent flares of consciousness in other words in the moments directly preceding death when their brains should theoretically be shutting down. Researchers saw a burst in neurological transmissions different parts of the rats brains were in explosive communication with each other all at the same time though interesting. The study was inconclusive. We can't know what the rats saw or experienced. During this time some would suggest the researchers might have been witnessing an end e but not everyone is so convinced. Most sceptics claim that all accounts of andy. Es including dr alexander's are actually hallucinations. They're the result of oxygen loss killing brain cells and causing confusion disorientation and visions similarly. They allege that the bright light at the end of the tunnel often reported by indie survivors is actually a relatively common side effect known as tunnel vision. This happens when the is don't receive. Proper amounts of oxygen as for out of body experiences sceptics claim. These are the result of the brain wires getting crossed while under immense stress. The brain misread sensory information causing the sensation of consciously floating above one's body but in two thousand twelve dr alexander published a book called proof of heaven in which he refutes these claims to this day. He insists that nbc's are much more than the imaginings of the human brain. Dr alexander pointed out that the e coli attacking his body prompted a natural coma as opposed to one that is medically induced. This detail remains critically important to his argument to induce a coma. Doctors typically used drugs that depress the central nervous system like animals or barbiturates once comatose. A patient's brain is essentially functionally asleep but still technically conscious in a natural coma. The brain is functionally dead and incapable of any activity at all. Therefore dr alexander shouldn't have been able to form any memories at all. He shouldn't have seen light felt a butterfly or sensed god unless he was truly experiencing something divine. Dr alexander's logic appears to be sound and his account does seem to suggest that n ease could be a real spiritual experience but according to the doctors who treated him. His hypothesis is based on some questionable information. Dr laura potter was the surgeon. Who operated on dr alexander. After he was admitted for meningitis and she remembered the events outlined in his book much differently than he did. Dr potter claim that in the state he was in. Dr alexander couldn't lay still enough for them to record his vitals for his safety. She medically induced coma and placed him on life support. In other words. Dr alexander's brain was never functionally dead. And he claimed dr potter. Also stated that when dr alexander's body stabilized. She attempted to bring him out of his coma occasions. Each time he would involuntarily thrash about in. Dr potter's expert medical opinion. These physical reactions proved that dr alexander was conscious the entire time in her care albeit often delirious and confused now. Dr alexander hasn't publicly released his medical records so we can't know for sure whose account is more accurate but there are elements of dr alexander story that can be called into question for example. The woman on the butterfly who he claimed was his dead sister. Now it's unclear when he last saw her photo but it would have been relatively easy for his brain to subconsciously. Recall her image and incorporated into a dream. Scape think of all the people who make appearances in your own dreams. Their presence in your mind doesn't mean they're real and of course prior to dr alexander's reported indy. We know he lied to cover up instances of malpractice his history as an unreliable narrator should call into question his account that said. Dr alexander has reportedly resolved all of his malpractice lawsuits and still maintains his medical license. So his interpretation of events isn't without some merit. Even if he may have an cheerier move after one year in circulation proof of heaven sold more than two million copies in thirty five countries around the world. Universal pictures purchased the rights to the story almost overnight dr alexander when from being disgraced surgeon to lecturing on daytime. Tv he's been interviewed. By oprah dr oz. And larry king and his views have sparked some controversy for example in two thousand twelve. He appeared on the cable talk. Show fox and friends directly after the tragic. Sandy hook shooting when asked whether or not the children who died would remember the tragedy. Dr alexander responded well they will know what happened but they will not feel the pain they will feel the love and cherishing of there being back there and they will know that they have changed this world. Statements like this speak to the heart of why reports of nda's can be so divisive. Sure dr alexander claims that he survived death in order to spread the message of eternal love and the existence of an afterlife. He wants to give humanity hope but many people worry that accounts of md es especially those that ignore medical evidence can give people false hope and that can be incredibly dangerous coming up. We examined the power of positive thinking now back to the story. Dr evan alexander is considered. One of the foremost experts are near death experiences. Much of his credibility stems from his career as a neurosurgeon after all. It's his job to know what's happening in the human brain that his checkered past filled was malpractice and lies has brought his claim into question especially since his end e has ushered in a lucrative new chapter of his life and he's not the only indie survivor to capitalize off their claims. Last episode we discussed anita. Johnny anita reportedly had a near death experience in february. Two thousand six six years later she wrote a best selling book about her experience. Called dying to be me. She then toured the world lecturing about its contents making a controversial claim as we discussed last time for years prior to her in d. e. anita had declined chemotherapy treatment for lymphoma when she entered a coma in two thousand. Six doctors administered chemo anyway in an effort to save her life after this treatment her tumors shrank and her cancer went into remission. But a nieta. The doctor's efforts had little impact on her recovery. Instead she attributed her renewed health to spirituality and the power of positive thinking the majority of medical professionals consider this claim dangerous as it encourages people to place their trust in faith instead of science but in response to her critics and needed claims. She's less dangerous than a doctor. Who tells their patient they have a few months left to live she argues. They're taking away something that could be life saving hope and she may not be entirely wrong. Dr david hamilton. A former pharmaceutical scientists believes that nontraditional methods like positive thinking should be incorporated alongside conventional medicine. He believed there's enough evidence to suggest that the human mind can change how the brain functions and possibly how it heals. One example of this is the placebo effect. A well known phenomenon in which the intended effects of a medicine are felt even though a patient. Unwittingly takes a fake alternative for instance. A doctor hands a group of people a sugar pill but says it's a new medicine meant to stimulate cognitive function. Though the pill should not physiologically alter anyone in any significant way participants report increased heart rates reaction times later when given the exact same pill and told his sedative. Participants report feeling more relaxed. The brain effectively creates its own expectations. Dr hamilton believes the placebo. Effect is an example of medical phenomenon. Known as neuro plasticity. Neuro plasticity is essentially the brain's ability to reorganize neurological pathways based on new experiences and habits for example in a two thousand four. Study the university of regensburg. Germany monitored a number of subjects as they learn to juggle three balls over the course of three months as they form this new skill. Mri scans showed growth in the region's of their brain responsible for processing visual movement. And since this is the case. Dr hamilton believes neuro. Plasticity could have serious. Medical applications. perhaps making a habit out of optimism or positively can rewire the brain to be better equipped at healing itself doctor. Hamilton's not alone. A growing number of medical professionals are incorporating physiological practices alongside treatments like chemotherapy but no medical professional would ever suggest that positive thinking could replace peer reviewed medicine and many would argue that anita more janis claims. Ignore the reality that she may be offering people false hope like dr alexander. She insists her indie e provided proof of another spiritual plane of existence but as the dalai lama once said in a two thousand thirteen commencement speech all claims of n ease should be investigated thoroughly to make sure. The person doesn't have a motivation to lie given the financial and career opportunities. There indies provided. We can certainly say that. Both anita and dr alexander had motivation to lie and they wouldn't be the first in two thousand four six year old alex malarkey and his father got into a terrible car accident. The crash injured alex's neck and spine causing paralysis in all four of his limbs and he spent the next two months in a medically induced coma when he woke he apparently claimed he'd visited heaven including his account were angels with wings growing out of their backs. The devil white tunnels of light even apparently spoke to jesus christ in two thousand ten roughly six years later at twelve year old alexander. Father sat down to write a book about the experience titled the boy who came back from heaven. it became an international bestseller later adapted into a made for television movie. Then in january two thousand fifteen sixteen year old. Alex admitted that he and his father fabricated the story to capitalize on the accident. And alex likely hasn't been the only one to knowingly capitalize on false indie narratives in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight a protestant christian man named bill we's claim to have a near death experience but instead of going to heaven on his journey he claimed he went straight to hell in his book. Twenty three minutes in hell. We s- alleges that he left his body while conscious in the middle of the night. He wasn't suffering from any health complications. He wasn't in a coma around three. A m he woke up went to the kitchen to pour himself a glass of water and suddenly found himself locked in a tiny jail cell in the fiery pits of hell. His cellmates were apparently two enormous beast. That spoke a language. He couldn't understand he could hear the screams and lamentations of the billions of people damn to spend an eternity in hell. Andy also claims he met jesus who told him to spread the message that hell was real. We woke up writhing and screaming on his living room floor. He later published several books about his experience and spent seven years travelling the country sharing his story. In two thousand we and his wife began sold choice ministries with the mission of bringing one billion souls. Jesus christ and restoring a reverential. Fear of god in the protestant church given the extent of his claims it seems likely that we fabricated his journey to hell to support an agenda. Either that or he had a particularly vivid maher. Nobody can deny that. Dr alexander and anita johnny survived the brink of death. But it's worth questioning. What caused their experience. Did their soul receive a glimpse into the afterlife or did a chemical reaction to physical trauma simply convince them that they did no matter what side of the fence you sit on. Nda's pose interesting questions about the nature of life and life after death and unfortunately we may never find answers not until we take our final breath until then it's up to you to choose what and who to believe. Thanks again for tuning into unexplained mysteries for more information on near death experiences amongst the many sources we used we found anita more janis dying to be me and erasing death by sam barnea. Md extremely helpful to our research. You can also check out. Anita more giannis. Ted talk on youtube for even more information about her experience. You can find all episodes of unexplained mysteries and all other spotify originals from podcast for free on spotify. Cnx next time and remember. Never take no for an answer. Unexplained mysteries is a spotify original. From podcast executive producers include max and ron cutler sound design by dick schroeder with production assistance by ron shapiro carly madden and freddie beckley. This episode of unexplained mysteries was written by matt mcgregor with writing assistance by molly. Quinlan and connor samson fact checking by kara macro lean in research by bradley klein unexplained mysteries stars molly brandenburg and richard roster fact fiction fame. Discover the real story behind. One of history's most formidable families in the spotify original from podcast. The kennedys remember you can binge all twelve episodes starting on tuesday january nineteenth. Listen free and exclusively on spotify.

dr alexander Dr alexander coma dalai lama Dr eban alexander lynchburg general hospital Dr evan alexander Dr potter anita Dr eben alexander Brigham lynchburg umass memorial medical center dr sanders kennedy Ricky coli Nisshin arizona boston
Prolix Prorogue

Slate's Political Gabfest

1:11:23 hr | 1 year ago

Prolix Prorogue

"Support for the gab fest comes from google from connecticut to california mississippi. Minnesota millions of american businesses are using google tools to grow online. The grow with google initiative supports small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching in all fifty states. It's helping businesses get online connect with new customers and work more productively learn more at google dot com slash grow. That's google dot com. Slash grow <music>. Hello into the fleet political gaffe s per september fifth nineteen gene the prolixity prorogue addition. I'm david plots of atlas faira joining me in washington d._c. Back back is favorite gab fest substitute gabfest guest ruth marcus of the washington post. Hello and i thought it was prorogue and thank you for clarifying that. What what's the alternative rock. I know it also. I'd never heard it said. It sounds like one of those words. You shouldn't say out loud. That's true well boris johnson prorogue. He's certainly professional rogue breath so great to have you back your on here. I am about to finish up book. Lee talk about the book about justice brad kavanagh who he is what happened and why it matters all right. I can't wait to see that reasoning her. Dr ruth is sitting in for john. Dickerson who was hither and yon <hes> emily babylon of the new york times magazine and yale university law school joins us from newhaven hello emily hello david and hey ruth great. The high on today's gabfest is joe biden really the front runner for the democratic primary if he is can he maintain front front runner dumb then what on god's green earth is happening in the british parliament we will go into brexit with a special special guest amanda tab of the new york times then have we turned the corner on the opioid epidemic or not plus. We will have a cocktail chatter reminder that we are going to be live in the twin cities on wednesday september eighteenth at the fitzgerald theater in saint paul minnesota. I'm thrilled to say we're gonna have guessed a special. Guest is twin cities based novelist kirsten feld the author of such magnificent books as prep and american wife and if you think i'll say it such a good writer on politics fiction fiction of politics or the politic fiction and she's gonna talk to us about how to write eight fiction about politicians and she's just also delightful companies so that'll be fun. Get tickets for that. Show just a few left at slate. Dot com slash live again wednesday september eighteenth in saint paul minnesota slate dot com slash live what ruth marcus is going on with joe biden there the gaff the confabulation stories the erosion in the polls the sense that he is his tenuous as a front runner at best. Is he still the front runner for the moment. He is the front runner. I feel like like this is the point where you have to intone the polls are a snapshot of the moment could change at any moment but i do think we have seen this. <hes> democratic credit field and field of many congenial to fields congealed seems but we're no but it has winnow in the field you can deal. I don't know a flock of doxa or whatever it is. He is still at the top but it is. I feel like he both has persisted to use a word. That's not <hes> joe biden word but another politician word at at the top of this field and it is very tenuous. He is like a gaffer to away from not being the front runner or emily. What is the tenuousness tenuousness dot com. Why do people sense that. It is tenuous. He has had this position at the top really since the moment he entered the field. You know except for one out liar poll. He has always been at the top everywhere. Why do people seem to feel like this is not a strong solid state for him to be. I don't don't think it's that tenuous and i maybe with listeners. Remember this book before biden got into the race. I think we all not you ruth but i think the rest of us wrote him off. <hes> it seemed like he was too old to gaffe prone to much the past of the democratic party but instead it has been true for months that there is is support for him in the party and he according to some polls does not have like an enthusiasm gap he has high numbers of very favorable all among different groups of democrats and he's also the person who polls the best with moderate democrats with african americans <hes> which is much less true of warren warren sanders so i think it's a pretty abiding support in preference. I mean it's sort of. I still feel like it's his to lose. It's possible that he could lose and he has this problem. In iowa. Which is that because that's a whiter electorate. He might actually do worse there but i feel like we should take hake seriously the relative breadth of his support right i mean warren still pulls really well with very liberal democrats and and white democrats who are very liberal but she hasn't really shown that she can make that support more broad and i also feel like bernie also still l. seems particularly two of the three of them like the most of a niche candidate so yeah abayas weaknesses but he may also be the person whose left standing at the end and if he doesn't blow it well yes that's that's the big and a couple of really interesting. Things have happened in the last week or so. A one is the interesting positioning of the biden campaign to sort of <hes> preemptively lower expectations in iowa and new hampshire which his you know the smart thing to do but it's not a exactly an example of leading by strafe of well our candidate could still win if he and as as you point out his potential weaknesses in iowa he could still win. If he loses iowa he could still win if he loses new hampshire. That's kind of that's true true but not true as well. If you look at history it has not been the case that a candidate has won the primary leaving aside a certain president clinton without winning iowa or new hampshire and that was a particularly unusual case. Maybe all cases or unusual in the age of trump. The other thing that's happening is biden seems to me to be suffering from a little bit of what i would call hillary clinton syndrome and what i mean by that is that he becomes his own worst enemy as i can't even think of how many columns that i wrote out of absolute exasperation just to be clear i was a huge fan of hillary clinton's semi kept writing these columns that talked about how she was becoming her own worst enemy and that strikes me as equally if not more true of biden and the example that i would give that right now has to do with his really puzzling response to the story in the washington post about the conflicting of the story about pinning the medal on a soldier who said he didn't deserve it why you would not say oh yeah. I'm sorry i should have been more clear. It was this and i put this this together and i will try to be clearer in the future instead of saying well. The details don't matter if the essence of the story is true. That just seems <hes> i get maybe we're grading on a curve in the age of trump but we shouldn't <hes> we need to great on the same curve of accuracy as we always great on why you would sort of double down and make your problem worse instead of better with hillary clinton was. She wouldn't apologize for what she'd done. That was clearly a mess up for biden. He should just say okay. Oh i should've told the story in a clearer way. I'll do better in the future and you can move on instead. He dug himself deeper the thing that i find so puzzling about the biden campaign emily is that there is nothing vivid about it he is he seems unable to articulate what he would be as president why he wants to be president other than that he wants to be president and his vision of politics seems so out of step with what appears to have it happened in the country over the past twenty years. Do i understand like he has. He was the vice president for very popular in excellent president. He did a good job as vice president. He's i think a man of honor and and devoted to service and he's got his warmth to him but beyond that it's this this absence of it kind of a verb to say here's what i want to do is confounding yeah i mean he has he's the nostalgic candidate right and the back to normal candid handed and i think there are a lot of americans who feel like if we can just rid ourselves of trump that like that looks pretty good to them and maybe they even go back further in the past because biden haydn's old enough to have associations with other decades as well it is out of step with the way that both republican and the democratic base think about politics and with the much bigger promises and push for systemic change that both warren and sanders are campaigning on but i think they're feels like a safety safety to it and that biden can just talk about returning the country to normal that you know this idea of of being the safe candidate has appeal. It's also true that some of the democratic support is because people think he's the person who can be trump and so if he doesn't win in iowa new hampshire and he looks <hes> evitable instead head of inevitable that some of those words that just doesn't happen like that right like it though evidence negatives have been bothering me a lot lately that i was trying to stupid front anyway if he looks beautiful then some of that could slip away and <hes> maybe other candidates could benefit from that kind of slide right but i yeah i feel like it's a mistake that you know especially people who like us like me. I'll just talk about myself. Read about politics for not that surrounded by the people who are paying a lot less attention and who just want to feel like they can live their lives and like outsource washington and politics attacks and policy choices and i feel like if you're one of those democrats biden could have a lot going for him ruth. What is the what's the warren kind of counter to this. I mean one. One thing that i've read is is that well the first three states. I think the first three states iowa new hampshire and nevada are well setup for warren and you can imagine if she she takes two of those dates or takes takes all three of them that completely alters at least the the narrative about this. Maybe dr sanders out of the race or clears the field in some other way. What does the other case that. That warrant should be making that oh this is. This is actually my race not biden's race. I think that what what she's doing is <hes> having a plan for everything and occupying increasingly i think the turf of sanders sanders in so elbowing him out of the way and setting herself up very clearly and effectively as the biden alternative biden's strongest argument is the electability argument in fact when he talks about why he's running and whether he would be running if he if it were if he were not running against trump it seems not running because he thinks that he is the one who can then beat trump and that it is essential for him to beat trump and that is by the way a very strong and compelling argument to a lot of people including me but the thing that i find confounding about it just to go back to biden for a second is his kind of ghazi recollection of the very recent past of of now he talks about how we can have this awake kind of rapunzel like awakening in the world after trump where we go back back to a situation where republicans once again frolic happily across the capital steps with democrats and we can all get along well note to biden that was not true. Hello a justice merrick garland <hes> before trump. We'd had a lot of conversation during the obama administration of which i gather that the vice president was apart about how we were the fever was gonna break after this election or that election and guess what the fever never broke republicans skins were not compliant or agreeing to go along with democrats before trump was elected and there's not a lot of reason to think that we're going to return into some happier time that didn't exist in the recent past <hes> once trump is out of office so i'm a little bit confused about why he is selling in that case which he kind of knows is not true case rate that you're raising something which gets under my skin so much which is the example that biden has always citing mccain <unk> who's not in office. There's no. I'm the only person you can cite. Is this senator who's basically disavowed by most of his party anyway. I the only did one thing. I mean it was a big thing but like let's not exaggerate his like amazing bipartisanship in the last few years before he did die the the <hes> <hes>. Do you think emily that <hes> rufus rufus mentioned that the there's wars maybe elbowing sanders do agree with this analysis that we are at a three person race that really even harrison buddha judge not legitimately in it and that everybody else is completely legitimately mickley in it and if that is the key if you do agree with that where where does that support start to flow once those people do tumble. I think harris is roberta. Judge could still pop back up. I mean the thing is we've seen them kind of a rise in the polls and then fall fairly quickly and so that lack of sustained support does mean that yeah is like if you're looking at the polls over time it does look like warren and sanders and by the only ones who are getting real traction but there's still still so much time before the election like if i were them i would keep on going and there are a couple other people. I don't know like cory booker. Maybe just because i can't figure out why he hasn't taken off more who i would say the same thing about. I don't know where all that supports going to go. I mean i don't know. Is there really any way for us to know. This is where i just the punditry starts to become like meet up at least coming out of my mouth ruth roussy reduction issue at least live inside the beltway even do that so one of the things. That's really interesting to me and i've been thinking about this. A lot is the paradox exit. The size of the democratic field seems to have created this almost premature win of the democratic field. It was too big for people not to fail so if it's an interesting contrast to the republicans in two thousand sixteen where everybody seemed to have cycled echoed through and at least had their couple weeks of a real moment here people didn't even get their moment in the sun before they were shuffled off the debate stage jim. I think that's partly because there were simply too many people for that to pay for us to be able to pay attention to any of them before they just receded from view at the same time. I think it's wrong to think that we're down to three because there's a little bit of a buzzard aspect here. There's people people who are circling who could be the moderate alternative to a warren sanders if biden as possible and i don't mean to sound so negative aug. About joe biden because i really like him i much more politically attuned to him than any of the three remaining candidates in the dow completely winnowed field joking here <hes> but i do think that he has the ability to shoot himself in the foot repeatedly okay and so there's a if you were a booker or a club char or anybody who can cling to the debate stage. I thought it was smart. I senator gillibrand to get out of it. If you're not in the debate you're not in the debate but <hes> if you're any of those others it would be premature to get out and because you never know what's gonna happen in politics and you one thing you know is if you're not in the race. You're not going to be the nominee so we're not down to three but we could be down to two ish probably sooner than we thought we would be. Hey one person who i wish would get onto that debate. Stages steve bullock. I feel like we're really missing the midwestern governor in the story and that because hickenlooper wasn't particularly compelling on the debate stage has now dropped doubt <hes>. There's like an opening. There and i heard someone who knows more than me talk about this. I can't remember where that one of the problems for the governor's owners is that they are campaign war chest don't just seamlessly turn over into federal racist and so they're at a disadvantage to these senators even though their experience as executives actives is much more relevant to the presidency to two point one that was on the daily thank you i heard that bullock western governor not a mid western governor just note. He's from true. Montana is the west. Guess glad that you clarified but i think that's the other point about governors is that they represent a form of politics in a way as biden and does former politics which is it's hard to believe in so it is true at the state level governors still managed to get things done and because states kind of have to have balanced budget requirements and and you do have to run schools and and <hes> you know pick up trash and do all the things that's licensed businesses states need to do do but again the federal the way the federal government works or doesn't work these days isn't it does not really bear any relationship to how state governments work and so i think there's a there's a way in which the policy that that belief that oh these executives can come in and they know how government works and they can accomplish things. It's it's harder to believe in that now than it was when bill clinton or george w. bush was running for president. Well except that washington works worse so i oh i think that the fa- the fizzling of the governors <hes> or the seeming fizzling of the governors and the democratic field is something of a surprise and it can only be explained explained by the fundraising and campaign finance rules of the situation because it used to be that being from inside the beltway emily said is a a a debit for a presidential candidate not a plus that people wanted people governors who had had experience in actually running running things and being executives and not just bloviating which is the fundamental job description of senators especially in the age of mcconnell where we don't actually pass legislation anymore so i'm both surprised and disappointed that the governor's haven't taken off right but why are you surprised i mean it's a it's a it's a it's a nationalized election. It's an election action about trump. It's not about particular executive competence and there's the sense that actually it's so much the the executive competence piece of it is not that ah important because washington doesn't work anyway and we really just need to get this this this villain out of office well. We need to get the villain out of office but we would like a to replace the villain with somebody who is in fact executive competent and the people who have over time tended to be able to demonstrate that executive give competence are the people who have actually demonstrated it in office. I guess i'm not surprised to find to find governor's doing so badly like peop- that's not where people are paying. It might just be the age of celebrity <hes> that <hes> that an obscure governor jimmy carter bill clinton could not actually service if we had the technology and media infrastructure than that we have now emily and with you have one last question which is very interesting gene piece by paul rosenberg and i can't remember where it was now. Paul wrote in salon <hes> about joe biden and the persistence of joe biden and one of the points that rosenberg eric makes which i found extremely interesting persuasive was that yes biden. Ken winter certainly possibly can win for all the reasons cited but that it would almost certainly lead to a quite disastrous astras wipe out for democrats in a couple of years as he would fail to get anything done because there's this new do nothing resistant <hes> congress aggressive republicans certainly will be republicans in the senate will have the ability to block anything significant that he wants to get done and he also doesn't fire anyone up and it wouldn't and the democratic mccray base will be disillusioned. Republicans will be excited again and that that whatever kind of brief reprieve that the country has has from trumpism which will be useful reprieve if biden or anyone else's elected it in the long run it will not be good for the democrats who need to move forward with a more active and aggressive and forward thinking politics. Yeah i do think i'm i'm sympathetic to that argument. I mean as someone who does think we need. Bigger systemic change especially in terms of thinking about inequality and the way the economy works and that you know huge and widening gap between the gains for corporations and the gains for workers that concerns me. I mean one way to think about this. Election is is that imagine that trump is like jimmy carter so failed that there is an opportunity for a like more more than snapping back to the status quo but actually like a revolution like the reagan revolution i mean it's not a real revolution but you know what i mean like a real victory for the other side and i think that biden would be squandering of that opportunity unless he governs in a completely different way than he has so far been a politician or has campaigned and that doesn't seem super likely to me although i do flirt in my mind with the idea of him choosing a running mate like stacey as abrahams who is like this big progressive voice and then really giving her a platform but of course. I say that because i'm so in the bag for stacey i you know okay. I just want to say one thing. I i read that piece and i thought oh for goodness sakes. Why don't we just concentrate on the task at hand. That's beating trump and then we could things co ff later later and there you have it. They just gentleman the split in the democratic party in a nutshell slate plus members lucky you what it lucky ducky you you are to be a slate plus member which you got for just thirty five dollars for your first year of membership you get bonus segments on the gatt vest and other slate podcasts as well as ad free versions of the podcasts today on slate plus. We're gonna be talking about the court in north carolina. That just tossed out. It's very partisan. Gerrymandering effort by republican can party and what that portends for politics north carolina and in other states go to slate dot com slash gap as plus to become a member today support for this podcast cast and the following message come from google from connecticut to california for mississippi to minnesota. Millions of american businesses are using google tools to grow. Oh online businesses strider bikes and rapid city south dakota are using tools like google market finder and google ads to expand their reach and connect with more customers customers globally and more customers globally means at strider bikes can hire more employees back home in the u._s. The grow with google initiative is committed to helping american businesses businesses like strider bikes used the web to grow. That's why grow with google provides free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching for small businesses and all fifty states it helps them get online connect new customers and work more productively learn more at google dot com slash grow. It is like some form of greek mythological mythological punishment. You think brexit will be done and yet it has never done. It's your liver being eaten. Every day is rolling breaks at shaped rock up a matter horn shaped hill well and it rolls down and falls on prince harry's head every single day it just never ends and yet it remains fascinating and horrifying all at the same time we are joined now by amanda tab. She is columnist for the interpreter at the new york times. She's joining us from london via skype. Hello amanda hi hi. Thanks so much for having me on so. I'm gonna start with a challenge. One of my favorite things is sometimes when they do shakespeare sixty seconds and then in thirty seconds so i in sixty seconds. I want you to explain what has happened in this tumultuous week in the british parliament and then you're gonna do the same thing in fifteen seconds. So are you game game the inverse. I'll give it a shot go okay. This tumultuous week has been forced on government has said that they want to leave the e._u. On october thirty first no matter what and parliament is trying to stop that and so they have been attempting various bills that would give parliament the authority to prevent what they call a no deal brexit which is leaving the e._u. Without any kind of agreement to i'd still be able to have things like imports of fresh food and medicines and other minor unimportant life details like that <hes> this week has seen gene incredible parliamentary shenanigans which included boris johnson attempting to suspend parliament through a complicated procedural maneuver involving solving the queen also the expulsion of twenty one members of the conservative party for voting against the government. <hes> members of the house of lords were bringing sleeping bags and pillows into the chambers of westminster last night because they were expecting to stay all night but the eventual outcome is that boris johnson has lost his majority parliament's now has the authority if it choose exercise it in the appropriate way a to prevent a no deal brexit boris johnson has said that there should be a new general election weirdly. The opposition parties have said that there shouldn't be one yet because they are worried that this isn't good timing for them and now everyone is just very tired. I think everyone working in in politics or covering politics in the country was up working until at least two in the morning last night and so now people are kind of stumbling around bleary eyed wondering what's about to happen next okay now fifteen seconds boris. Johnson wants to be the person best known for opposing brexit. This week has been great for him because he has gotten to do that roughly every twenty minutes but he's lost his parliamentary majority and that no one knows when there will be a new election or there will be a brexit that was i just want to add that. His own brother has resigned gleaned from not just the party the conservative party but also from parliament. I enjoyed that don't have thanksgiving. It was technically american they might have they might have thanksgiving. He had u._s. citizenship for a while until he announced it amanda can you. Let's back us up. You've given us the the the kind of broad landscape there very quickly and persuasively there was this moment last week i think time time stretches and compresses with with burdette's say what happened last week. That actually reminds me of my very favorite thing that happened yesterday which was at one point. Somebody proposed that the house of lords could make it just stay wednesday for as many days as they wanted. They're there for seizures. Somebody put forward that if they catch debate going until i think ten thirty a._m. This morning they would be allowed as a matter of parliamentary elementary procedure to extend wednesday as long as they needed in order to kind of keep their legislative agenda in votes open spend moving and so there was at one point as far as i can tell a proposal under consideration to stop the forward march of time in in order to try this legislative issue. You were going to preserve one day. That was going to go on forever. Would it be wednesday. I i can't say that was good interrupted so going backwards. A lot of the seems to have been kicked off by prorogue rogue the prorogue movement by john. Can you just explain again to campus. Listeners what that was and why that was so outrageous and was is all part of a deal is all part of a delivered johnson plan to essentially explode everything anyway yes so <hes> taking those questions in order proroguing rogaine is basically an attendant the reason it's so complicated if that boris johnson is everyone believes using some shenanigans to run out the clock on legislative time before the brexit that on october thirty first so right now the country will leave the the u on october thirty first unless there's some sort of intervention but there's no agreement in place about how that will occur which means that the kind kind of dreaded no deal is on the horizon and everyone is very worried about it. Boris johnson has done by proroguing politics <unk> parliaments. He has basically set a queen's speech for i believe doctor levin which is a normal normal thing that happens but carves out about a week out of the legislative calendar so does it effectively suspends parliament while they're dealing with queen related tasks asks because of that and because there are parliamentary recesses coming up anyway that would essentially leave parliament with only slightly more than a week to to come to some sort of agreement about brexit or stop brexit. This was widely seen as procedural shenanigans in order to run out the the clock the roughly the equivalent of if you're in a soccer game just kind of hiding the ball behind a bush and saying that they need to keep the clock running thing well you look for the ball. It has been very controversial. Even though it is technically something that you know they have an argument for under parliamentary procedure ager politically. It's been widely seen as a kind of out of bounds thing to do. <hes> something that violates norms of british parliament if not officially the law so that is fascinating to me. It's an example of constitutional hardball and your partner in the interpreter column. Max ax fisher has a really interesting piece. I think pointing out that what is happening in britain that's different from so many other countries that have had a populist right-leaning being uprising including our country that constitutional hardball breaking these unwritten norms it didn't work it basically like blew up in johnson's face and the <unk> opposition was able to prevent or at least like blunt the effect of this proroguing strategy by taking back a power through institutional means as opposed to playing kind of game for tip of tit-for-tat as max says and that seems really important i mean i feel feel like we're watching. This incredible. Drama unfolded and look if you don't live in the u._k. And fear yourself the consequences of a hard exit brexit brexit than it's all like entertaining as in addition to fascinating. It's reassuring to see that you know twenty. One members of the conservative party walked out that there were people in politics who were willing to put what they saw as the longer term health and safety of the country above the the interest of their party anyway. I mean look it's worth drama but it seems like so far so good right can i can. I argue there so what i want to argue with is i've been thinking about this a lot and one is. I think somebody who valorize as parliamentary democracy. I i think i always assumed well apartment parliamentary system. Jim always works because a parliamentary. You always have a parliamentary majority if you don't you have an election and then things get salt and here you have an example where there's a parliamentary majority it is now doesn't doesn't exist and so there's there's the government is unable to do the things that it wants to do but i think what britain has done with by putting the brakes it to a popular referendum <hes> they have introduced a new source of legitimacy in politics new a new foundation for legitimacy which is popular vote the popular vote four something your parliament and she didn't want the thing that people voted for and so you end up in the situation with with competing legitimacy around politics and no majority for anything so it is true at this moment emily you you're right that there's that the that the defection of these stories and the rebellion against johnson has stopped johnson's parliamentary shenanigans that which would have forced this hard brexit but it hasn't created there is no legitimate majority that people can agree on which is able to accomplish helpless anything. There's no consensus within the country either from the people from the the institution of government the parliament which says we are going to do this explicit thing and that ah we have support for it in and so it remains a complete crisis to me because there isn't a source of legitimate political majority anywhere right i mean everyone seems really good at saying no but not figuring out what to say yes to but isn't the answer to that david. What happens next rate like do we does the country have elections and then it does <hes> actual solid majority. Come out of that for either you know labour or conservative party boris johnson or somebody else else who stepped forward. I mean if we if the country ends up with all this fracturing and still no consensus then. I think you're totally right so i think that something that is a a little bit hidden right. Now is what the consequences of this will be for the tory party because essentially what has happened because has these twenty-one m._p.'s stood up and said they were willing to sacrifice their political careers is a whole bunch of moderates and kind of elder. Statesman types are are now out of the party and i was talking to allie surani yesterday. She said a political science professor at cornell and she compared it to kind of trump with occasion of the republican party in the u._s. She said you know this could prove appear a victory. If in the end what you have is a conservative conservative party where everyone who is left is really going for this populace message that only the only the results of the referendum is the thing with legitimacy legitimacy and parliament should just be kind of delivering brexit whatever the consequences so. I think that there's the sort sort of short term. Feel good moment but a cuss. This is such a time of change and uncertainty in british politics. It's really not clear what the consequences are going to be. My fundamental question is why don't we need another referendum. Don't we need. Maybe it's in in the form of an election but it feels like british british. People doesn't doesn't the country the united kingdom need in another referendum because the people voted but didn't necessarily understand or think through the consequences of what they were voting for and their representatives have had problem implementing that ever since for that reason and we're being governed by a referendum that might not have a majority if it were to be put a get back again to to the people in might something that i haven't seen discussed as much is that in a way we're actually in this is is our staple equilibrium of instability where this current situation of always seeming like brexit is about to happen and thereby by maintaining the brexit debate and letting everyone kind of cater to the brexit issue sides which right now are the most kind of powerful political identities in the country is kind of working for people i mean i think that for instance boris johnson's position will actually much tweaker. If there is a decision one way or another on how brexit is going to go because right now he has really staked his political reputation on on being the person who is fighting for this rather than the person who has a plan to do what needs to be done after brexit happens and so i think it even if there were to be a referendum probably the result would be the same thing again continued fighting over the details continued and you'd insistence that there is some mythical solution out there that requires no sacrifices from anyone and you know even if the result went differently the next next time then you would just have you know the same thing again people saying the first referendum was the more legitimate one and we should we should with that or the second one was and then there would be. Maybe a third tiebreaker referendum. I don't know so what's the exit strategy. Then i mean then you're just talking about like sclerosis of po. I mean in some ways. I realized that it sort of fundamental but it's also like this huge distraction from actually making the country stronger better more pro you know more more <hes> what's the word prosperous yeah i mean as a procedural matter parliament could revoke article fifty and article fifty is the legal mechanism that means britain is leaving the european union <hes> right now. It seems like everyone is kind of waiting for somebody else to make the decision there to be some other form of legitimacy for something that will resolve this and it's just not happening. Why is the british political system which i think americans think of as having produced benjamin disraeli and winston churchill and margaret thatcher and titanic cannock figures. Why is it producing such titanic in a good way not titanic like the ship titanic. Oh you know atlas lake gods gods among men. Why is the political system produce such week parties and bad leaders. Why why is it. Why is there so little excellence in this this magnificent system one thing that i put a lot of stock in is the fact that party leaders are selected differently from m._p.'s so right now. The two main parties have the system that is almost almost like a primary election on steroids where only people who are actually members of the party not just as voters in that party. It's not an open election like we have u._s. Primaries aries can vote for the leader and those people just like primary voters in the u._s. Tend to be a little bit older more ideological all to have stronger views news on divisive issues. The same is true of the kind of party memberships here in the u._k. And so that means that the people who in effect elect at the prime minister are different from the electorate who elects the legislature and i think that that has produced some really weird outcomes because the leader of the party in a parliamentary system has tremendous power over who gets to be an m._p. As we saw in twenty one of them just got expelled from the conservative party but the the system isn't really taking into account that they have different constituency is a lot of ways and different incentives for instance both boris johnson and jeremy corbyn been have the support of you could call them the sort of more extremist wings of their respective parties and are very much of catering to them in their policies thieves on their rhetoric and that means that for the kind of vast middle of the voting public the sort of stuck deciding between going going with one of the main parties even if it doesn't necessarily match up with where they are politically or voting for a smaller party the liberal democrats with the knowledge that they're probably not going to win the election and so in some ways you're reducing the power of your vote and all that is just leading to a lot of weird weird outcomes in the party system amid a last question. I know you're yourself while i'm guessing judging by your accent that you yourself are not british. But what is it like to be in britain right now. In this endless state of uncertainty what is the impact appear to be on people to be living in this this moment of this fog it just goes on and on and on you know it's it's very strange. It's a lot of the time feels like those kind of never ending production of waiting for godot where everyone is talking about this thing that is going to happen in the future but no and everyone agrees that it's incredibly important but nobody knows exactly what it is or what it is. We're waiting for or if it's ever we're going to come and so far. It's not coming but another way of life is sort of going on as normal if everyone sort of tunes in the end of the day to watch the b._b._c. and see that you know brexit is still uncertain and still might be catastrophic or still might be fine and then they get up and go to work the next day and and you know things are just kind of ticking along with a little bit less bigger behind them and a little bit less kind of excitement about the future that that sounds like a description of life itself taking along with a little bit less vigor area on. I have a motto. Amanda tab writes the interpreter column for the new york times. She is based in london. Thanks so much for joining amanda. Thank you so much. I'm feel examined from sleep money. There's something going hang on oversleep money right now what you ought to know about which is the succession recap podcast. It happens every monday if you <hes> huff as obsessed by obsession as i am you're going to want to listen to this because we will explain all of the real world parallels and what is going on packet and it's fun so if you wanna get the slate money succession podcast just subscribe to slate money and apple podcasts right now or wherever you get your podcast the opioid crisis has ravaged the united states for more than a decade as many as seventy thousand people a year dying because of drug overdoses mostly because of opiates those numbers this fatality numbers have declined slightly in the past couple of years but it remains a tragedy of monumental proportions millions of americans addicted to prescription opiates almost a million addicted to heroin and fenton venting all which are nonprescription <hes> sort of street drugs were in the mail drugs mckay sentinel and there's this. We're at this moment where there's a legal assault taking place on the manufacturers and distributors of a prescription opiates. I don't know that there's a sense that anything has changed but the sense it may be the crisis has peaked and is is on its way down <hes> so ruth start with the legal question. Are these companies being punished inappropriate way who should be punished. Why should they be punished. <hes> should they cease to exist. Should they be paying billions of dollars should they you know they should their executives. Be whipped whipped inflate in the streets. What what is the right thing that should happen legally and isn't happening well. I'm not sure about whipping and flaying but yes they should be punished. I <hes> and they should be punished for two reasons or in two ways. <hes> one is because you need to create a disincentive for companies to unleash dangerous drugs like this in the future effective but dangerous drugs in other words these are medications that were necessary for some people but that seemed to have been oversold over prescribed and under war and and they the companies assumed to have known about it. They encouraged it. They incentivized their sales people to do this and they took no steps to stop it so it is important to number one disincentivize them from doing this in the future and number two to find the source of funds their ill-gotten gotten gains billions of dollars in ill-gotten gains to help people deal with the consequences of their addiction which is enormously expensive of an enormously painful and on certain process of overcoming addiction. It's kind of like the cigarette litigation where you see a company basically eh realized how much harm it's doing and hide the evidence for that from the public and continue to make a ton of money and then start to pay at least at first what is basically like a tiny percentage of their profits in these legal settlements the next step would be kind of master settlement the way we had server cigarette litigation where the drug companies you know there's one b <hes> set of settlement payments that you know really could be reparations really could make a difference in people's lives and provide treatment and we have not seen that yet these this is just like the beginning of any kind of accountability ability and i i think it's also important to talk about the need for and it's we have we can't sue the government and put government officials in jail for not doing their jobs here but we need to find a mechanism for figuring out how the government failed its people here as well because if you look look at the magnificent washington post series that got to this d._a. Database of millions of pills being sent to tiny communities well in excess of anything they could have legitimately needed. Yes the the pharmaceutical companies and the distributors and the pharmacists pharmacists and everybody else should have known and should have taken steps to stop this but also this was it within the knowledge of the government that supposed to protect us to protect us from the selling of dangerous drugs and it's clear that as the pharmaceutical companies and distributors and everybody else involved in this process for for financial reasons didn't <hes> allowed this to happen to our country. The regulators and the enforcers were were equally or similarly complicit in their failure and we need to have some reckoning on that as well. You think this is a an answerable question. I suppose pose. Do you think that if you were an executive at a pharma company or at one of these distribution companies that you really felt felt like these drugs were good and you didn't really know what was going on or did you know oh yeah this is. We're just we're just feeding generation of addicts or did you think like oh no but people are really in in pain. There's a huge amount of pain in this country men's people on disability and we're helping them because it's very hard it is hard to be kind of a willful sadist latest people. I think tend to delude themselves. I don't think they tend to act with malice when they don't have to well there. There is a lot of good good that the drugs do in terms of preventing pain right like that israel benefit and i think you could talk yourself into that being the primary purpose of distributing drugs for for a while but then i mean we've had evidence for you know what like eight or ten years that this has just spun so far out of control and that they're these drugs a gateway to drugs like heroin that were causing these lifetime addiction so i don't know how you could keep yourself without just brill- acknowledging that you're just trying to line your pockets or make your company richer well. The human capacity for self delusion is rather limitless in my view but as with the <music> as with the cigarette manufacturers the ability to say and and this is a different <hes> we you make a really important point about the the benefits are no beneficial effects of cigarettes that you know maybe helps you concentrate or peps you up or something but there are no fundamentally beneficial effects of cigarettes. This is a a slightly harder case at the outset because there are beneficial effects of these medications however the drug companies seem to me to have you've <hes> failed to understand or acknowledge the likely addictive effects of their medications they downplayed it once they learned it and and then they didn't take steps to make certain once they understood or should have understood that <hes> to make certain that people who people who have their wisdom teeth out don't actually need thirty pills maybe they need five and but the drug companies has been incentive to sell them thirty <hes> because that's more money in their your pockets and so were they knowingly conscious that they were creating this national crisis on an individual basis. I'm a big believer in self delusion which makes me a big believer in negligence ed but there was gross reckless negligence on the part of these individuals else. I did not realize until i was doing the reading that that it is. The people are skeptical of the idea that these are even good for chronic pain. I didn't understand that that actually if you're gonna have chronic pain problems you probably shouldn't get on something that is a long-term addictive drug that you need to find some some remedy that isn't just taking eighteen some pills every day because your tolerance increases and you become addicted and then you're in a much worse shape than you were before and that that so that they're really good for acute pain for something short term or something which is gonna kill you but not necessarily for something which is just gonna nag at you for the rest of your life. I think it's important point and i heard a fascinating interview with travis rider rider. He is a medical bioethicist and he was in a motorcycle crash that required him to get off of that onto opioids. It's and then he had enormous difficulty finding good advice about how to get off and so we need better work on that and we also need better work on the science of addiction and how twelve step programs that have been tailored for alcohol addiction whether these are the most effective mechanisms assumes or whether as the science seems to be that we need to take not from the alcohol model but to have medication assisted therapies so that people can get onto better safer drugs. His books called very compellingly in pain. Yeah i mean vox correspondent handed german lopez announced a project this week to try to crowd source more stories about rehab and all the ways in which we have goes wrong or you know if you're really lucky can go right and as i was reading the introduction for that project. I realized i had never really thought about this in a systematic way of like what do we know how many of these he's inpatient. Treatment centers really have good success rates. What are the strategies and is outpatient treatment often better so <hes> <hes> i was reading a piece actually from two thousand sixteen by not maya salvage that was published on five thirty eight called what science says to do if your loved one has an opioid addiction and and there was a ton of good information about their suggesting that you no evidence based treatment is much more likely to be medication assisted the way you were just talking about ruth and it just made me realize like there's so much suffering and trauma that goes into this kind of cycling in out of rehab and these heartbreaking decisions that families please make to put up all this money and you become a repeat customer over time but you're also in this like very difficult situation often of trying to to feel your way through it of feeling a lot of shame or guilt about what's happening and the idea that you would have such little support and that like as usual our healthcare system would not be set up in a way where it would just take you where you need to go as a matter of course as just it's justice so frustrating couple of points on that one is you can understand why i mean medication this. The the problem of opioid addiction is a problem of medication to is that people have been prescribed drugs to treat something and those drugs it then turned and and become a dragon that is consuming them and so you can understand why i wipe the idea that medications solution might make people alarmed like medication wasn't the solution for the original problem. Why would medication be the solution for this. Not i'm but i totally aligned with the evidence base theory of this. I just psychologically you can understand why that wouldn't why that might be difficult for people two we shouldn't let this pass without talking about the assault on the affordable care act and the assault on medicaid and the fact that once you that the that that part of dealing with the opiate epidemic is also helping people with mental health issues and giving them some sort of insurance backstopping in their life life and and those who would those who would <hes> strip the affordable care act or undermine the private insurance plans that people are able to buy under the affordable care trek and undermine medicaid are doing some damage to people's ability to to treat them to get treatment. Yeah i mean one of the things maya says is is that when opioid addiction happens it's rarely someone's only mental health problem and that totally makes sense that you would have kind of coexisting other set of issues whether it's depression or bipolar disorder or whatever but i hadn't really thought about it again in a systematic way before and it it means obviously that when you're evaluating someone you need to be asking those questions so that you're treating not just the addiction but also looking for whether there's underlying mental health issues to deal with two. Why do you think that the united states is by orders of magnitude the country with the biggest opiate problem in the world. That's a great question. I don't know that i i know the answer to <hes> but it may have to do with our fractured and individual centric <hes> method of prescribing medication. I don't know if prescription drugs are more controlled in places with singer single payer so so i'm kind of <hes> flailing in the dark here on that but it's an interesting question that i think we need to figure out you know it's sort of like the gun question right. There are a lot of there are a lot of countries without that have albums number one. I mean don't you think part of it has to do with our affluence like you can <unk> this enormous waste like all of this money and healthcare getting targeted there to channel in this direction direction that turns out to be completely counter-productive but it wouldn't start if you didn't have enough money to pay for the whole damn thing to begin with no but i think it's kind of intuitively backwards because other countries that have a stronger safety net of coverage for prescription medication shen <hes> it should the other day i went to fulfill a prescription and my insured they hadn't reached out to my insurance company so it was three hundred didn't fifty dollars but once my insurance company kicked in it was seven dollars so it can't be that in a place that has spongier insurance like the united states. It's the affluence affluence that helps you get this medication because i was no way going to spend three hundred fifty dollars for this medication and so i just wonder if places that have have a more comprehensive system of insurance also have tighter controls on access to prescription medication. Oh yeah i'm sure they do because once you have single payer you you have an incentive to be setting prices lower and saving money and rationing care effectively like if you were rationing care them presumably you're not prescribing more <hes> opioids than there are people in particular place. We solved it. Single payer. There you go support for the gabfest comes from luminary. Luminary is a podcast subscription service with some of the best content around and it's also the only place we can listen to new york. Magazine's new podcast broadcast tabloid tablet stories are not just guilty pleasures and the case of this podcast they are revelatory ones electrified by the trip wires of culture race class gender and politics this season on tabloid. Vanessa gregory narrates the story of ivanka trump. This is a podcast. I have been hearing about for a long time for my friends at near zero. I am so excited for it. Ivanka trump is of course the child very public nineteen eighty s divorce at teenage party girl and and seemingly her trophy collecting fathers very favorite trophy along with tabloid luminary gives you access to a bunch of other original shows from innovative dynamic creators. You can't can't find anywhere else. Luminary app is free to download and you can use it to listen to thousands of podcasts including of course the gab fest checkout tabloid and so much more only on luminary. Get your first two months of access to luminaries premium content for free when you sign up luminary dot link slash gav vest after that it's only seventy nine per month. That's luminary dot link slash gap best for two months of free access. Luminary dot link slash gabfest cancel anytime terms apply. Let's go to cocktail chatter when amazon you're having your whatever whatever your form whatever you're alcoholic form of soothing is and your chattering with somebody. What are you going to be chattering about. I i read criticism fields new short story book this week because she'll be our guest a few weeks and i just loved it. I just inhaled it. Basically it's called if you think get out say it. I am not normally a big short story fan. I find the forum often to feel just like too tight but these stories first of all they're just wonderful and also kind of linked the mathematically in a way that made me feel like more that i was reading a chapter book. I usually feel with <hes> isolated short short story so i totally recommend this book and now i have another piece of challenges hundred percents. It's so good yeah. He's the one who read it first and told me that was great so yes. I just like to cite the use of the phrase chapter book as if you were kind of graduating to more difficult went along well you know it's sort of still remains useful. Even though i'm no longer in third or fifth grade and then my second piece of chatter had i'm gonna sneak in is to recommend or recent episode of this american. Life called ten sessions with my new york times magazine colleague jamie low. It's about her <hes> <hes> efforts to do a particular kind of fast tracks at of therapy to deal with the past memory of at the past experience of sexual assault and it's wonderful i mean i am a huge fan of jamie's in this made me remember how much i loved the book she wrote a couple of years ago which is called mental his about her bipolar disorder so listen listen to the episode and then that should be your gateway gateway drug to jamie's excellent book mental ruth. What is your chatter so my cheddar. I love a medical mystery stories and also stories about how the medical system fails us in some ways and so. I was really taken by a piece in the new yorker by mike mariani <hes> it's called town for people with chronic fatigue syndrome and it's about a place called incline village in nevada near lake tahoe where a group of people with chronic fatigue syndrome have coalesced because it's pretty much much but only episodically the only place in the u._s. Where you can get a drug called amp login that has some good effects though disputed disputed for people with chronic fatigue syndrome and the reason it's one of the only places you can get it is at the food and drug administration hasn't completely approve this medication because it four chronic fatigue syndrome which is of course a very disputed by some physicians though i have a friend with chronic fatigue syndrome syndrome. I think it's a real thing and so it's a story of his pretty much seven year effort to get access to this medication occasion which is still hasn't gotten access to and the desperate people in this town who have moved there <hes> and gotten enormous success with the medication but then have had it cutoff so it's just a very interesting little story about and compelling story and i sort of feel like with chronic fatigue syndrome we all wake up tomorrow morning morning and be even more exhausted than we already are and have doctors that don't take our complaints seriously and so i was just very struck by this so as i <hes> having my cocktail i will be <hes> chatting about various ways in which our medical system with all the promise us of personalized medicine and individualized d._n._a. Testing still fails actually enormous numbers of people with serious health health issues. My chatter is about a remarkable theater going cinema going. I should say experience. I had this weekend. I went with with my father to the i._m._a._x. Theatre at the space museum here in washington d._c. And we saw apollo eleven which is a short forty five minute documentary about out the apollo eleven moon mission is a narrated it is simply <hes> incredible archival footage some lost for many years so i'm just never gathered some just restored in magnificent ways <hes> the tells the story of the mission from john f kennedy's exhortation to go to the moon wound to the rocket taking off to landing on the moon coming back to touchdown <hes> after reentry. It's it's the most gorgeous spectacular astonishing forty-five minutes of film. I've seen in years and if you i don't i don't think it would be. I don't think it'd be good on television particularly. I don't think it would be. I mean it'd be fine irregular theater. If you can go to an imax theaters in general create magnificence since but if you can see it in an i max or in a big theater i recommend it as strongly recommend anything it is. It's just astonishing and it's it's. It's just like you will vibrate from how how moving and powerful it is. I also have listener cheddars that were gin you listeners you have lead such interesting live readings such interesting things and you are sending those great things to us at like fest on twitter and i want to encourage you to keep doing it because it's just a delight for me every week to get them this week. I want to call out <hes> david amman at david amman who i feel like maybe had an earlier listener chatter now that i'm looking get your name at david amman and <hes> david amman is recommending a story about canadian woman who has been the foster parent along with her husband to two hundred children. It's called the woman with two hundred kids. Woman named cindy sterling and it's just like a beautiful story. If you wanna have a good cry and feel about feel good good about somebody who's done an astonishing amount of altruistic good work in the world for children read about sending sterling and the story. It's really totally inspirational. All that is our show for today. Gap is produced by jocelyn frank. Melissa kaplan helped here in washington right mcevoy in new haven are our researcher is of course the indefatigable bridget dunlap. We should follow us on twitter at at sleep fest four. Emily vaz's long and ruth markets. I'm david plots. Thanks for listening. Please come to our live show. In saint paul on september eighteenth dot com slash live four tickets gets. We'll talk to you next week. Hello slate plus. How are you. I hope you are not in the throes of a hurricane. Hope you're having a good post labor day back torque period <hes> you north carolina. You might be a threat of a hurricane. You're also throws a legal hurricane. There was a decisions week from a three judge panel. North carolina state judges throwing out in egregious partisan gerrymander. Emily basilan take us to north carolina tells what <hes> yeah so the state legislative districts in north carolina have been <hes> you know extremely gerrymandered since is the twenty ten census. This is a long running lawsuit that wound up back in state court and the challengers to the districts which were drawn very much to benefit republicans cans prevailed based on this three judge panel ruling that is rooted in the state constitution and the fair and free elections <unk> guarantee that is in north carolina's constitution. It's a tremendous victory in the state for people who want more competitive elections. It's obviously a potentially victory for democrats so far it only affects the state legislative districts not the congressional map. I'm a little mystified fight about why there wasn't a parallel lawsuit already in place challenging the congressional map but now various groups democratic party and common cause talking about also challenging launching the congressional map in north carolina. You know i think the thing more broadly that's so interesting about this is that the supreme court in june said said basically we're taking federal judges out of the business of monitoring and preventing gerrymandering. We think just can't handle this. They don't have the tools. There's a kind kind of full modesty chief justice. John roberts is opinion about the limitations of the judiciary to deal with this problem and you see the in this ruling as you si- thinking previous ruling from the pennsylvania supreme court the judges absolutely are capable of doing this kind of monitoring that i mean what i have said all about this for a long time and writing about it is that if people have the tools to draw the maps using software and computer technology computer programming you can whip up so many thousands of difference of variations of maps based on how you distribute voters once that technology exists just to draw the maps will judges. They don't have to be drawing all the maps themselves but they can also figure out how to assess it is not in the end rocket science so i think what you're seeing from the state courts are a really responsible effort to try to make <hes> elections more free and fair just like the state constitution says so i think one of the interesting things that this brings up is key to what extent can state courts and state constitutions save save us in an era when the supreme court is dominated by conservatives who want out of these political thickets <hes> or other issues issues and the spin a conversation. That's been going on since justice brennan wrote about it in nineteen seventy seven talking about how we should spend more time paying attention tension to state constitutions which had been kind of laboratories of democracy and judicial lawmaking as kind of <hes> suggestions for where the federal courts the supreme court could go and now maybe a little bit but i want it really caveat this in a conservative as the judiciary lower courts and the supreme court are increasingly dominated by conservative judges whether state constitutions and state judges are a potential potential alternative one conservative judge jeffrey sutton is written up on the sixth circuit court of appeals. <hes> has written a book arguing about the vibrancy an alternative method of state constitutions and to that i would say this is great that north carolina did this but yes spot <hes> and the but is that state courts are often unfortunately politically <hes> <hes> elected politically appointed giveth fans that was just a teaser to hear the rest of our conversation go to slate dot com slash gab vest plus to become a slate plus member today hi i'm new york times food columnist and cookbook author melissa clark and i'm here to tell you about my new podcast weeknight kitchen kitchen. It takes on one of the biggest dilemmas for busy people. What are we going to eat for dinner. In each episode you'll be with me and my kitchen as i work through one fantastic recipes to help if you get through the week and i hope share helpful advice along the way it's a cooking show for beginners season cooks and everyone in between yet weeknight kitchen free on apple podcasts or anywhere you get your podcasts.

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Ep81 Learning the Levels of Intimacy - A Guide to Better Connection

The Virtual Couch

44:08 min | 2 years ago

Ep81 Learning the Levels of Intimacy - A Guide to Better Connection

"Uh. Hey, everybody. Thank you for tuning into episode eighty one of the virtual couch. I'm your host, Tony over Bama licensed marriage and family therapist. Certified Vlad coach writer, speaker Hasim, father, four alter marathon runner in creator of the path back online pornography, six recovery program that is helping people reclaim their lives from pornography, diction, if you or anyone that you know is struggling pornography, diction, please point them to path back recovery dot com. There you can download short e book that describes five mistakes. People make when trying to overcome pornography, diction again that his path back recovery dot com. All right, let's get right to it this week. I am guest on another podcast and it is called the joyful soul project and a wonderful woman named Heidi Linford interviewed me for her podcast, and she wanted me to talk about the impact of pornography diction on marriages and how to heal advice that I would give spouses who discover that the partners have pornography, diction. But admittedly, I don't know if I just felt so comfortable or what was happening, but I kind of kind of went big. I went all in and I hit several. What I like to call my soapbox topics. I talk about guilt and shame in recovery and hope, and all of these kind of things of betrayal, trauma, all kinds of things that I really feel passionate about topics that when I kinda get going and I warned Heidi ahead of time that, hey, if I get going on this, you can just cut me off. Give me the high sign. We were recording video and I'll try to move on and she, she let me go, and it was kind of nice. But one of the topics is one that I've been bringing up in my practice comes up. I mean, I think it's literally every day and whenever I get to speak local presentations that I've been given for a few months now, it's a, it's a topic that bring off in. It's one that I knew I was going to record a podcast about, but it is the topic. The concepts are so good. I feel like the topic is so important. I feel like it can help a lot of people that I found myself wanting to make sure and get it right. So I've been putting off the doing a podcast on it. And so once I talked about this on Heidi's podcast, I thought, okay, I'm on the hook. I gotta do. My own. I gotta go big on this. So that's the topic of today's podcast, and it's about these various levels of intimacy that will improve your marriage. I'm not just talking about physical intimacy. There are these levels of intimacy that I'm telling you, they will improve your marriage or the own prove your dating life. And it's a concept that I believe to be relationship changing. So back to podcast, so I don't even know what it was that she asked. So I start talking about this concept, he's levels of intimacy and pretty sure I kind of hesitated anxious to hear what may be sounded like. I don't know if she'll edit that part out or what that will be like. But I think I kind of hesitated because I realized in that moment that I haven't really talked about this on a podcast and I've been meaning to do my own about this topic. So I kind of felt like wait a minute. Do I wanna give away the recipe for the secret sauce on somebody else's podcast. But at that point I couldn't pull a diva like move and say, you know, Heidi, stop the recording, and I want you to edit that out. I haven't talked about this on my own podcast yet. Although, ironically, I'm realizing now that if I release this on Tuesdays, which is what I typically do that I believe. These podcast comes out on Thursday, so you're going to hear this concept and then you will hear these podcasts, hopefully, and you will now know the story behind my brief hesitation. So I explained it really fast and said, I'd better record something on my own soon. So this is that recording now add to that that my friend, Jonathan, who was a guest on episode sixty two. It was the one that helped me review the book how to raise an adult by Julius Hames was in my office and little that. I know while I'd ask him if he could film a couple of clips so that I can maybe post them on the virtual couch Graham page, which I would highly recommend you go subscribe to or follow. I guess, as the kids say, it's at virtual couch and he livestream the entire podcast interview, I had no idea. So we get done with the interview and he tells me the film the entire thing. And then he said, people really liked it when you started talking about these levels of intimacy. So I felt like it was time. It was time to record the episode so I could be a little bit of background about eighteen months ago or so. I started doing some training. For in the field of betrayal, trauma through a group out of Utah called Addo recovery ADD. Oh, when I'll put all the links in the show notes, but part of what, what led me to that the recover, the training on betrayal, trauma throughout a recovery is that I've done so much work with addiction and especially pornography, diction compulsive sexual behavior that I thought it would be really beneficial for me to kind of understand what the spouse was going through. The spouse of the person who is a dictator pornography and the betrayal, trauma recovery, the betrayal, trauma training absolutely changed my entire practice. It gave me so much more understanding and empathy which I believe actually helps me help the attic even more, but, but I've really enjoyed or kind of I just so much appreciate the work of working with the person who has been betrayed even more at this point. So so I'm doing this recovery this at a recovery, this betrayal, trauma training, and the training was done by a gentleman named Dr Kevin skin. And I was with Dr Skinner's work. He's kind of a big deal in our industry, although I now that I know him well, he would not like being called a big deal, but I had actually knew him from purchasing and giving away many copies of his book overcoming pornography addiction. It's a quick read. It's a good read because it goes into detail of hell. Pornography impacts the brain, and he talks about waste overcome pornography diction. It's just a really good book. And so now I have this opera tuned to train with Dr Skinner weekly, and I did so for several months, many months. And since that time I've now had the privilege of meeting with him every other week to continue training on betrayal, trauma, and some other topics. And I've just learned so much. It's been so benefit for me as a as a clinician, and I love that concept. I love that part of being a therapist, honestly, that there are always things to learn. There's a digital training that you can do every now. And again, you know, you'll learn some new concept. You'll feel a little bit a guilt around. I wish I would've known this when I was working with, you know, certain people in the past. But of course, that is not a workable thought. Nothing I can do about that. All I can do is gather more data and continue to move forward with my practice. So I've learned so much from it, but I've asked Innovest him to come on the podcast and he's going to in the future. But in one of these trainings reference fairly quickly, what I wrote down my notes levels of intimacy and the honestly blew my mind. And so then I was able to dig up some additional information on these levels of intimacy, but it was after I had already filled in the blanks from the notes that I took that day informed what I feel like it was a pretty profound view of how these levels of intimacy affect relationships and how they can make sense of where couples problems often originate and better yet how to heal them. So the only problem is that when I received this additional information about these levels of intimacy that Dr Skinner created, it didn't exactly line up with Dr Skinner's initial thoughts and not that I completely got the concepts wrong, but so quickly, let me read you Dr Skinner's bio and yes, he gave me permission to a podcast on this topic, this topic of levels of intimacy and just little that. He know that when I'm going to do is take his incredibly solid. Foundation and ideas and tweak them ever so slightly. So I wanted you to be aware of that, but I would highly encourage you to go Google Dr. Kevin, Skinner's Ted talk. It's called the other side of infidelity. And as I just mentioned, he is the author of overcoming pornography diction, and another amazing book called treating trauma from sexual betrayal and that as a good one for the person who has perhaps done the betrayal as well as the person who has been betrayed to read, it takes both sides and helps you really understand what each other is going through. But Dr Sanders, the co, founder and clinical director of recovery, and he's as a licensed marriage family therapist. He's been helping individuals and families for eighteen years. And he's also the co founder of bloom for women, which is an online resource that for women struggling betrayal, trauma, that I mentioned often on my podcast, and he's a member of the American Association of marriage and family. Therapists also is one of the core faculty for a group called attack and in tap works in the world of training. What's the International Institute of addiction and trauma professionals, and he's a certified sexual addiction therapist and supervisor, and he's also certified in EM DR. I'm movement desensitization reprocessing training, which is something that I'm going to have some folks coming on soon to talk about MDR and he has his PHD in marriage and family therapy from Brigham Young University. S- let me do this. Let me jump right into what I took away from the training session with Dr Skinner and what I have done with this information. Some being very clear about that and then we'll do. I'll share with you what I gathered much later from some of the data that I received that actually the deeper dive on what Dr Skinner had proposed with these levels of intimacy. So here's what I haven't talked about in my own sessions. So when we meet folks when we get into a relationship typically and there's no, this is no judgment, no shame on this. But typically we find it's because we find someone attractive that there is this physical attraction. And so if you could see me right now. Guess it probably should have done a video version of this, but I've got my hands a pi. I'm kind of laying out this horizontal top rung of a ladder. And on that top rung, I would put physical, so this physical intimacy or physical attraction. So typically we jump in at the physical attraction layer. We see somebody, we find them attractive. We at one asked them out on a date and we're off. So again, nothing nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that at all. But where where I kind of go from here is that in this the notes of this training, the that I that I had written down as actor. Skinner has these these different levels of intimacy. And so what I have it on the bottom is that a foundation of a relationship it we, we really wanna work toward what he calls psychological intimacy and psychological intimacy is founded on four key principles, honesty, loyalty, trust, and commitment again. So psychological, intimacy, honesty, loyalty, trust, and commitment. I want you to picture this this if you can. So once we have that that psychological intimacy when that is intact when that is in place in a relationship, you know, all things feel good, right? But let's take again if we meet each other on this with this physical attraction. Now we jump back down and we're trying to build onto this five psychological intimacy. But right above psychological intimacy as verbal intimacy and verbal intimacy is when we really feel like we can just talk to someone about anything, and maybe we've had those experiences with some of our partners. Some of our boyfriends girlfriends in the past. Remember those long, three and four, our phone calls. I don't know if the kids do that anymore. Maybe that's a whole bunch of Snapchat in or texting, or direct messages and Instagram, but but you know, if you're over a certain age, probably remember just talking to your boyfriend or girlfriend until late hours that you feel like you can talk about anything. So right above verbal intimacy is the concept of its next emotional intimacy. So when you feel like that verbal intimacy is there when you. Feel like you've met your partner and you can really just talk about anything and everything. The next level above is emotional intimacy, so that verbal intimacy is intact. Now, I start to share my emotions with this person. I start to feel so connected with them that I can share how I feel about things. Maybe my my hopes, my dreams, my frustrations, anger, sadness. And so when you feel like you can share your emotions with someone now you've kind of connected at a different level, a higher level of intimacy. So remember now we've got the verbal intimacy and then we've got this emotional intimacy right above that. And so again, these are what I took down from the these notes from Dr Skinner and what I've kind of worked on in the months after that. But the next level up he talked about was a cognitive or intellectual intimacy. And the way that I like to say is that if you've got this verbal intimacy, you feel like you can talk with your partner about anything, and then you've got this emotional intimacy, this emotional connection, you can share your hopes and dreams and feelings, that sort of thing. And that feels safe and secure that at the next level, we've got this cognitive or intellectual. Intimacy where and I look at that as you know, one person could. I often go to extremes when I give examples, but one person could be a, you know, a world renowned neurosurgeon, and the other person could could have, you know, for various reasons, dropped out of high school. But if we've got this verbal intimacy, this emotional connection, then it doesn't matter where we're at on this cognitive or intellectual field that we steal still feel connected. We don't find ourselves feeling like our partner is making us feel dumb, or you know, we appreciate the differences between me and my spouse, even though if we we may one of us again has a lot of book learning or book smarts. And the other one maybe has a lot of more street smarts, but we still feel connected than above that kind of intellectual level is this spiritual intimacy. And again, from where I was coming from from my notes was that if we're if we can, we feel like we can talk about anything. We feel like we share emotions with verbal intimacy, that emotion, we feel connected regardless of where we're at cognitive intellectually. Then even spiritually we could have dif-. Views on a spiritual front coming from a spiritual plane. And yet we still feel like we can be together. It's important to kind of be able to know with all of these verbal emotional cognitive actual bonds that we feel safe enough that we can share even differences in our spiritual views and still feel like this person is there for us like they care about us. And then at the top run, the top rung of this ladder now is still this physical intimacy. And so and physical intimacy doesn't just mean the sexual intimacy. It can mean touching hugging just being together. But here's the concept. Here's the big takeaway is that when we feel connected verbally, when we feel connected emotionally, when we feel like we can be on the same place, even despite differences in cognitive or intellectual intimacy, spiritually, we can we, you know, we can communicate our differences spiritually or the things that we agree on. But we feel like we can share things spiritually, then the byproduct. This was the big takeaway. The byproduct of all of this connection. All of these levels of intimacy is physical intimacy. So at that point, I mean, you feel like you care about your partner so much that the that the, you know, the logical, the thing that kind of that comes from all of this connection is wanting to be physical or wanting to be physically intimate with your partner that it's the byproduct. So again, take back that the l. look backwards. If we meet on this physical level, we find someone attractive and then we go down we and we try to talk to this person. You know, here comes, the were approaching were attempting to have verbal intimacy, and if it doesn't go well, then oftentimes we say, but they're, they're good looking, right? This person's hot, you know, so. So we're going to make up the fact that we don't talk very often or now if we go back and we try, we take a dip in the emotional intimacy pool, and we share some of our emotions. And this is where I kinda go deep on that EFT stuff. I preach all the time, the emotionally focused, their the part where I'm putting out an emotional bid kind of saying, hey, to my partner there for me, kinda count on you. You have my back. And then if that partner responds back with a heavy dose of shame or guilt or fixing or judgment, then we don't feel that connection emotionally. We don't have that emotional intimacy, but we look back and say, okay, but, but I'm tracked into this person or or maybe we, we are physically intimate on occasion, and that's where we feel connected. But we're missing these lower levels of intimacy. Remember at the very bottom of the psychological intimacy, the honesty we have, you know, do we feel like we can trust our partner loyalty, trust commitment because up from that psychological intimacy is verbal intimacy from the verbal intimacy is the emotional intimacy of from the emotional, the cognitive, and intellectual from that's the spiritual and up from that the byproduct of all those physical. So you can see where kind of come from with this as when I'm working with couples. If they have this connections draw this physical level, but every time they go, try to talk things don't go well. Or every time they try to express their emotions than the other person's shuts them down or there's the fixing the judgment or at that cognitive intellectual intimacy. If one person is. Making the other one feel less than or like, you know, they aren't smart or that sort of thing. But yet then they're trying to go up and connect physically over time this. This doesn't work because we don't have those levels of intimacy in place. We don't have that psychological intimacy of that foundation, honesty, loyalty, trust commitment. We don't feel like we can talk. We don't feel like we can share emotions. We were the other person's putting us down. Often. We've feel like we're not connected spiritually and therefore all the sudden we say, why aren't we being more intimate physically? And it's because we don't have that connection that lower connection. So that's where this comes from, why it's such a soapbox topic to me. So I feel like when when we are, that's a lot of times what we need to do in couples therapy is go down and start to work on that root level that psychological intimacy, the honesty, the loyalty, the trust, the commitment, if there issues, I'm not saying that the relationship is doomed, but I'm saying, I can understand why. Oftentimes, one of the partners in a marriage finds it difficult to be physical because they feel like there's no cycle. Logical intimacy. There's no honesty, loyalty, trust, or commitment, or we feel like we can't even talk to our partner, but then we're supposed to jump all the way up the levels, the rungs to this physical intimacy, and that makes sense why that's difficult. So we need to go down and repair or work on these lower levels of intimacy. We need to just have time where we just talk a lot of times some of the homework to prescribe with couples, right out of the gate is just spend fifteen minutes three times a week and just talk and just in even if you have to write down things, they used to cure it carry a yellow sticky note paper in my back right pocket. And I would just jot down things throughout the day that my wife and I could just just talk about because the days are hectic. And so a lot of times we just missed that verbal intimacy, that one of these low level, these lower rung. Exercises that we can do to start to just just Bill this bond grow closer together. And when we have this, this kid, this verbal connection, when we when we want to exercise and just communicate with our partner, we need to make sure we're doing so without the fixing judgment part. So if we're going to get together with our partner, two or three times a week, even of his fifteen twenty minutes a day, going to walk, sit on a couch, do something where you're uninterrupted, put your phone down, do it after the kids go to bed or we're going to go on a walk, you know, and we'll be right back kids. That sort of thing at that point then talk and don't turn around and shut the person down if you're saying, hey, here's what happened to me at work today. We don't want our other partner to say, well, why didn't you do this? Or I would have done this or I can't believe you said that because those are those fixing judgment statements and that that's what destroys verbal intimacy, right? That's why we feel like then we can't communicate with their partner, just go and talk. And then this is where we go back to that empathy if you are the partner that is listening, listen and ask. Questions, hey, what was that like? Tell me what happened next. Tell me what your thoughts around that. Tell me where that came from. But so we want to be able to just start to connect on the verbal level. The verbal intimacy up from there will feel a little safer to now start to approach the emotional topics, but that's why I feel like these levels of intimacy are so important now in the gin, these were some of the notes that I had taken at a time, but when you have a relationship than that is formed on the physical. So then that's the part where we're going to go through periods in times and seasons where we're not going to be equally yoked from a physical standpoint. But if we feel like that's the basis of our relationship, you can understand why someone is most likely gonna feel frustrated most of the time when they feel like the foundation of a relationship is physical? Yeah, we are having a physical relationship where in reality, we need to flip that completely upside down. We need to build that honesty, loyalty, trust, and commitment commitment that you are there for me partner commitment that even if we're not being intimate physically. That that you still care about me? Right? Because our foundation is is on this psychological intimacy that we really wanna talk to each other. We really want to be able to share motions and then move up the ladder. The levels of intimacy from there, there is nothing like having just an incredible week weekend day experience where you are, you're clicking on all these levels with your partner where you really feel like you can trust them where the commitment is there. They want to go what to do anything with you. You gotta run to the store, your partner's going to go there with you, and it's not because I don't wanna go, it's because they wanna be with you, but his then in that situation, guess what? Now you get to talk to share this verbal intimacy. You share your motions. You kinda see what's going on you to learn more about each other. Even if you're not. Again, even if one person is working on a neuroscientist and the other person isn't that you're spending time together and you're connecting verbally emotionally that cognitive intellectual there is share your spiritual hopes and dreams and and you can do so. And not feel like you're going to be shut down at the end of that experience. That's where that's the an experience where couples often feel like, man, I just, we love each other so much. We feel so connected that, of course, the byproduct of this as we feel connected in one express that physically. So what a different experience than what I see in my office a lot of times where when people are off physically, where then that's where we get into the world of people that are pouty wanting to make sure they're partner knows that they want more physical intimacy where the other partner is is kinda putting off the same vibe saying, I want to be able to talk. I want to be able to share things emotionally. And so in those those kind of situations aren't very productive. I'm gonna get into this in future podcasts and other one of these I can't wait talk about, but you know that dynamic right there is what I see a lot in offices in my office. But what I see a lot is this concept of where when people feel like the physical intimacy is the is the foundational principle and when they are not equally yoked there. That at some point we've got one person that is is, and I'm going to be honest, I'm all about being authentic and vulnerable. Most of the time it's a husband. You know where then in this case he might say, you know, look if there was more physical intimacy than I would be more engaged. I feel like I'm a better husband father and all these things. If there's more physical intimacy and a lot of times they'll look at me and say, you know, you back me up here. You know, you're a guy come on, right? And then I often than because of the work that I do can look over to the wife and say, hey, what's what's going on here for you? You know, the husband just said, you know, I'm a better husband, a better father, a better employee, a better church servant of all these things when we're more connected physically. And then again, he's like, I've laid the roadmap out. It's so clear and I and I often at the wife and say, okay, what's this? Like for you? And oftentimes the wife is in tears saying, I basically, I feel like I'm in charge of his happiness if I am not if I'm not satisfying the physical relationship then and he's not happy. On me. And so the work that I like to say, okay, we gotta change the whole relationship with intimacy we. That's where this comes from. We gotta change the relationship with intimacy. We have to let her know that you care about her more than just the physical intimacy. And here's the part where I say, okay, if we know that your wife feels like she is. She can just go and evening and just we can talk. We can share emotions, we can. We can hug. We can cuddle we can do these sort of things and it doesn't have to end and physical intimacy. Then we know that that that she matters more than just this physical intimacy. And I think a lot of that comes from having these levels of intimacy just turned upside down. If we nurture the psychological intimacy, the loyalty that trust the honesty, that commitment and we, we work harder on that verbal intimacy and feeling like we really connect verbally. We can talk about things and then we can kind of open up more emotionally. That's where. Then again, the byproducts of this kind of these levels of intimacy will often be that physical. Missy now be honest agai look at me off in and say, oh, hey, okay. So if I do these things but spend more time with the verbal in the emotional connection, the psychological connection, then there's going to be more physical intimacy, right? And I and I say, often eat to break into the guy, but I'll say not necessarily, but guess what your connection with your partner, your connection with your wife is going to be so much better and you're going to change your relationship with the physical intimacy piece. So so that's my take on these levels of intimacy. So we need to go back and work on the psychological piece, honesty, loyalty, trust, commitment from that from psychological intimacy as verbal intimacy. I want to be able to just feel like I can talk with my spouse about anything from that as emotional intimacy. I wanna feel like I can share my hopes and dreams and feelings in this whole kind of emotionally focused their EFT way so that I know that I can put out these emotional bids and my partners gonna say, tell me more. I'm your person. I want to know where you're coming from. And I'm not gonna you know, I'm not going to tell you. That's ridiculous. I'm not gonna shut that down from that as cognitive intellectual intimacy up from, that's the spiritual intimacy and the byproduct. The byproduct of that is the physical intimacy. I in this training and I won't. I won't because I don't know enough about the person that Dr Skinner mentioned, but he shared in the training that I was in that he, I think he was presenting this concept somewhere and he was sharing the stage with with a say, sex therapist. I believe in the story that I remember is that she came out after him or or something in she said, you know, I buy into what Dr Skinner saying I agree with and she talked about that. I think she said her libido is small. His libido her husband's will be though as large. But you know, when they are connected verbally emotionally cognitive, actually spiritually physically when they are connected at all these levels, she knows at times where he's stressed or if he's overwhelmed or that sort of thing that sometimes she'll say, you know, get on over here and let me give you a quick in the closet. I guess was the term that she used, but basically say, we're so connected that I know. Oh, that it's not all about the physical. And I know that at times they're, they're times where maybe that physical connection is something that that he truly craves, but I know that our relationship means more than just that physical intimacy. So let me do this. Let me jump into where the additional information found from Dr Skinner is. Here's what he talked about. He talked about the value of creating meaningful relationships. And so with regard to creating meaningful relationships, he talked about focusing on what he called him six types of intimacy. And he called that this secret weapon of recovery. So the when I, when I learned more about this as I did more follow up, this was through one of recovery's programs for overcoming pornography addiction as well. So he was talking about putting this social support, this social network together. And so in that regard, he called it the secret weapon of recovery, this intimacy, which is even more important, right? And so he said, he said, let me explain why in the world of recovery, he said, I believe it's either addiction or intimacy. I love that concept. And so he said these. Powerful types of intimacy that if you apply and the recovery process that you are going to have deeper connections, and it will aid you in your healing. So now take those levels of intimacy that I just laid out and you can see now where I was coming from with those regard to couples therapy or just feeling connected with your partner. And now Dr Skinner was actually saying, let's apply these in the recovery process for somebody is battling addiction, and he believes it's either addiction or intimacy and that these levels of intimacy will lead the deeper connections that will aid in healing. So here's what he said. He said, he began with a quote by Dr Victor, l Brown. This is a very good quote. He said the lives of most people are histories of their search for intimacy of their attempts to be socially physically and emotionally close to others. I'll read that again. So Dr victory Browns said the lives of most people are histories of their search for intimacy of their attempts to be socially physically and emotionally close to others. And that's even at the concept of that. The core of this emotionally focus therapy. This EMT that I love is based on tach theory that we're going around. To say, are you there for me? Can I count on you? And so our partner that we marry that we are friends girlfriends are gone say's obviously that's who were turning to to say, are you there for me? We are searching for intimacy searching for an attempt to be physically and emotionally close to this person. So doctors can use this if Dr Brown's quotas, true. And that's what our lives are focused on. Then we in, we focus on an ac- than we should put our deepest efforts into doing this. So how so? Up to this point, he said that pornography and sexual addiction have probably distracted distracted the addict away from deep intimate relationships. And this is part of what I was talking about in Heidi's podcast of where pornography, diction compulsive sexual behavior, gambling, alcohol drugs. All these things are typically when someone feels like they are lacking something when something is missing in their life when they feel like they're not a good husband or father or they're not connected to, they're not passionate about a career that they like, and they don't like that feeling of not. Feeling connected or good. So then they turned toward the addiction. So Dr Skinner said, pornography and sexual addiction probably distracted you from deep intimate relationships or maybe pornography and sexual addiction of actually been the coping mechanism that you've used the deal with stresses. And so he says that he as you turn away from addiction and toward intimacy, that healing will improve significantly. So this is where he got into his take on the types of intimacy. He said, let me begin with what I call verbal intimacy. It's a conversation. It's talking about the weather in a marriage and might be talking about the kids or banking issues, finances, all those types of conversations. That while they might not seem intimate, they're very important. And so Dr Skinner study found when couples are having a hard time their verbal intimacy with verbal intimacy. They actually begin to ignore that part and they ignore each other. So when they feel disconnected, they're not talking about the weather. They're not talking about the kids, banking, that sort of thing. So he said then a d. perform a communication is what then he calls a mock. Tional intimacy. And so emotional embassy is deepening of the verbal communication. So in my take, it was the verbal communication leads the emotional intimacy. I like how he put it better, that emotional intimacy is deepening verbal communication because now you're sharing your emotions, your your hurt, your sad, your joy, your happiness. And as you share those types of emotions. Even the even sharing your cravings. If you're the person struggling with addiction and you share that with somebody that you care about then then it can draw you toward that person because you're being vulnerable. And oftentimes I do find that a spouse, they want their partner to be open invulnerable. They do. They don't want them to be closed off in standoffish. So with this sharing of motions, Dr Skinner says, that's what will create the emotional intimacy. And he's found that when couples don't share emotions with with each other, they feel isolated an empty in the Bill alone. So that point, then he says, the third type of intimacy is what he calls cognitive or intellectual intimacy, because where I was kind of building up from, he said that when couples have goals that they share with each other, they worked together, there's a, he talked about a story where a couple became very successful financially through going to museums and finding artists who were very early in the career. They purchased the art. They sold the art because they found these artists early, but they enjoyed sharing these experiences at the museums. Gather in purchasing them. It was a common goal. And so Dr Skinner says, couples who have common goals together generally have better relationships, and I believe that there's the concept of opposites attract and I understand that. But I found that you know, I work with a lot of couples than just say, well, you know, he does his thing. I do my thing and and you know, my my wife's grandparents long ago talked about just spending time with each other. And I think that they were onto something with this where you know my wife and I, if it's things that she likes to do that, maybe I'm not as big of a fan of, I'm still going to do it anyway. And if there are things that I like to do that she's maybe not as big a fan of. She's going to join me in doing those things because we want to spend that time together. We want to try to form common goals to have this better relationship. So think about how many common goals you have with your spouse. So that type of intimacy as it grows, then that's going to strengthen bonds. And Dr Skinner told the story as well about remembering a friend of z. said, who is overcoming smoking diction, and he took up running and actor Skinner city will never forget is descr. Running across the line of a marathon with his wife. They ran the marathon together. They finished together what a great form of intimacy. They had a common goal. Boy, I can tell you this weekend, my wife and I had a Saturday. We a couple of kids out of the home couple of kids in the home that were busy with their own things, and we just went up to the trails and we ran and we, it was hard and it was fun and it was amazing. And we just had an amazing time. This common goal of just getting out and exercise and running. We were out outdoors and the weather was beautiful, and but we had this common goal. I've I, that is one of those situations where I felt so close to my wife. It was incredible. That's a great form of intimacy. Having a common goal, the four type of intimacy than from what doctor Dr Skinner says, this is spiritual intimacy, so he's kind of working the the levels, obviously there his levels I was kind of working the level similarly, but just not exactly the way that he had laid them out. So he said, this is the ability to share spiritual feelings or when with another couples who can share spiritual intimacy also grow together. And he said. Guardless of your religious beliefs, sharing common spiritual values can bind you closer together. So it's important to be able to talk about these things to find that common ground. The type of intimacy is the one that he says is the most common and that is sexual intimacy. And so here's where he goes back into where this concept initially came from in the world of addiction. He said, pornography and sexual addiction can can create great havoc on your sexual relationship. It can create a lot of problems. So learning how to reintegrate sexually is a very important part of healing and recovery. It's understanding your spouse's pain or trauma. If you're married or understanding how it's influencing your sexuality, he says, if you're single, regardless of your situation, pornography and sexual diction cannon will hinder your sexual development. And I can attest to that after working with so many individuals on this. So whether you're in a relationship or not, as you work on recovery, he says that he's found that couples and individuals who are single, that they develop a better if they develop a better understanding of their sexuality, they deepen their intimacy that they begin to understand how to be patient and how not to focus on their sexual. -ality it doesn't become as dominant as at once was it doesn't become as much of this just force that they feel like they have no control over. He says there's less less thing. There's more loving and kindness, more fiction, less expectation. That's where I was kind of talking about. He says, couples worked together or a single people do this. They find a greater deeper, intimate bond because the relationship is not just about sex. It's about connection. That's that key. When in that's where I was kind of going with that part with the win the couple when the husband says it would be a lot easier. Just had more sex and the wife says, okay, then I feel like this is all a me. Dr. Skinner talking about that same thing that it's not about sex. It's about connection. So then he says, the six type of intimacy then is what he calls psychological intimacy. So he kind of lists that last night. I, you know, I put that this bottom this, this kind of the basis. But he says, psychological, intimacy is built as it's one of the common components. These four common components, trust honesty, loyalty, and. Said, if you take those four elements out of any relationship, he said, I guarantee you'll be fighting and arguing again, if you trust honesty, loyalty, and commitment. So as you work to reestablish those in your relationship, that's and I love this. The brain relaxes the relationship gets better because trust and honesty or what we would call cornerstones loyalty and commitment. Say I'm in loyalty you, and I just want to say that he also added then because again, these came out of his work in addiction and recovery. He said the damage created by pornography or sexual addiction in these four areas. Very significant. Again, this for years, trust loyalty, honesty and commitment. However, when couples recover, he said a guarantee you that trust begins to be reestablished. Honesty is expected. Commitment is given and loyalty is just who you are, your partner that that part just blows my mind. A good way loyalty is who you are to your partner. If you are loyal to your partner, I feel like those are the times where you're going to want to connect all these other levels because that's who you are. You care about your partner. He said, I guarantee that if you. Increase the psychological intimacy. The other forms of intimacy will automatically get better, and I think that's where he had thrown this out in the training. And so I had it at the bottom level, the bottom rung of this ladder of intimacy again. So he said that, you know, he said, if you increase the psychological intimacy, the other forms of intimacy will automatically get better if those four areas are lacking, you're going to have problems. So so I believe that's why, why I put that down there at the bottom. So again, in my levels of intimacy, I had that psychological intimacy on the bottom honesty, loyalty, trust, and commitment. Dr Skinner's saying that those that's kind of this six level of intimacy and that as you work on these other levels at, that's the part that's going to that's going to really matter the most and that the quicker that you can kind of work on those areas that trust the honesty, loyalty and the commitment that it's going to lead to better verbal intimacy, emotional intimacy, cognitive, intellectual intimacy, spiritual intimacy, and the physical intimacy. So, hey, I want. I didn't think this one would go that long, so, but I prefer you sticking with me this long. I think. Those levels of intimacy. It's an incredibly important component. I feel like if you want to take away something today is to have a little bit of an assessment of where are you there too. You feel like you are talking with your partner. Let's start there. Are you able to just talk about the weather able to talk about the kids are able to talk about banking or able to talk about anything and feel like you can just share those ideas with your partner? If not, it's time to maybe look for some help. And I don't mean that in a dramatic q., the ominous music way because there's plenty of help out there. Plenty of help that's available huge fan again of mostly focused therapy. There's a great book called hold me tight by sue Johnson, and I think it's even called look at my bookshelf and I've, of course, given the copy at away, but seven conversations for a lifetime of something says something very positive, very strength based, I'm sure, but hold me tight that lays out a foundation of kind of more productive communication or listen to any of the the podcast I've had on EFT emotionally focused there, but we're. On that verbal communication. I, I think that's one of the places that you need to be aware of the honesty, the loyalty, the trust and commitment, but just try to go throughout the week, take ten or fifteen minutes a day and just talk if you need to write down notes or shoot your partner text throughout the day, just talk in, let's let's do our best to remove the fixing judgement. Let's remove layer partner here this part to Vallejo. You know, if you're gonna talk about the the weather, nobody wants to say, man, I love the fall than have your partner say, are you serious? You know, of boy. When you get cold, you get cranky or or all I think about is the, you know, you can see why then communication shuts down the if it's like I love the fall. The say, the correct answer from your partner is realm. It's why. Why you have the fall. Tell me more about that. What was it like grove, I mean, maybe you never had fall as a kid, you know, and so that would make more sense. You enjoy the seasons. That's thing. But, hey, thanks again for taking the time to join me today on the virtual couch and. And mentioned blue for women dot com earlier is that's one of the things that Dr Kevin Skinner is co-founder up, but it does deals with the trauma and betrayal traumas real the work that Dr Skinner's done in that field alone as spin mind-blowing, but the symptoms of trauma, very similar to PTSD. So Dr Skinner, the other folks who've created the balloon for women site in the content on that site have just years of research under their belts. So there's help. And so if you're experiencing betrayal, trauma or trauma, the anything, but trail the spouse after an affair and emotional fair. If you've recently discovered your partner as a pornography, diction go to bloom for women dot com, and you can use the coupon code virtual couch all when word and the a month's free access to their evidence based information and programs, entire community of support designed to help you grow and he'll and if you shave any part of your body head face legs, arm chest, the top, your feet, your toes, anywhere male, female. I would encourage you to check out allies. Extracts extracts is all natural organic. Sheep prema- Sinton. With the central oils, they smell amazing, feels berry. Comforting and smooth and and soothing to your skin. Visit e. l. i. s. dash e. x. t. r. a. c. t. s. allies dash extracts dot com and use coupon code virtual couch for twenty five percent off your entire order of their incredible soothing healing shaped cream and stop by Tonio dot com. Sign up to find out more information about some programs and that sort of thing coming up soon and a chance go to add virtual couch on Instagram and follow or Tonio Rene license, marriage and family therapist on Facebook. And until next time, here's the wonderful talented Florence taking away. It's wonderful. And sliding. The day grind. Placed. Stoneman. They push side things. Two. Exciting news deuce count. Take. Pushed. Shut. Develop this don't XP. Understandings. Halts you paint. She just. Strings. Onto.

partner Dr. Skinner Dr Skinner Heidi Linford Dr Kevin Skinner Instagram Julius Hames Dr Kevin skin Jonathan Graham writer speaker Hasim Tony Utah Google Dr Sanders sue Johnson Stoneman Dr Victor
Using Your Gifts for God   Jan Brooke-Harte

Creatively Christian

37:15 min | 2 months ago

Using Your Gifts for God Jan Brooke-Harte

"Welcome to creatively christian. A podcast by the media where we inspire inform educate and empower creative christians of all types. I'm one of your host brandon hollingsworth in today's episode lynn bieber interviews jan brookhart about the diverse ways. She uses her gifts for god and remember. If you enjoy this podcast be sure to rate review in share wherever you listen to podcast. Hello this is lynn. Baber and welcome to another edition of creatively christian. Podcast and i am so thrilled to have is my guest today jan brookhart. She is the founder of the foundation association a ministry of encouragement especially for pastors and their families as well as the women support network she's been featured across the nation as though speaker and singer in such places as the crystal cathedral of garden grove california fourth presbyterian church of bethesda maryland and angelus temple in los angeles california as a former college edina students youth pastor and campus life staff jan considers herself fortunate to have assisted many students in finding answers to life's most difficult questions variety and versatility do describe chance life. Her experience ranges from singer recording actress marketing public relations director and entrepreneur to youth pastor. College students counselor and author. She writes children's books poetry and apologetic six as well as life stories. Jan welcome to creatively christian. Thank you linnet so nice to be with you. I'm honored i don't even know where to start with you. I mean you know. We chatted before we got started. And you know that the audience that's listening to us right now or watching us. There are people who have some creative gift and they wanna use it to serve the lord wonder what they're doing and my goodness. You have done that in. So many different ways How do you think we should start talking to these people because my goodness with your background. Starting about seventy different places. Well you know. I asked the lord years ago When i was struggling with what do you want me to do. Lord and i was just asking him that what he will be. Do you said to me what do you want to do. And i gave him a list of a few things that i like to do and he said well do it. And i'm of going that's it. That's simple do it okay. And so at that point it began a singing a singing ministry. And that's actually my car. Driving driving home from a long trip. When i when i asked him that. When we're having this conversation Which i do. I have private conversations with lord in the car sometimes or wherever and Sometimes we have to listen back. That's i think a big problem. We don't take time to listen. We're always talking. We're asking and then we rush on to whatever else were doing and we gotta take those times. Bill has As a fabulous point jan. Thank you for making that. Because i think that's where it begins. Yep yep it does. And that's where the law gives you peace about something and you know i find. Sometimes people make comments to me similar to what you did all you can do all these things. No ever really whatever but everybody has a gift. Everybody has a talent in usually people miss it because it's the easy thing for them to do the thing that they've all anybody can do that no they can't and you know those things that we sometimes dismiss because they're the easy things for us. Those are the very gifts that the lord has put in your heart and that he has that he has given you to less other people with that is you may be. You may think. I can do anything but bake bread. I love to bake bread. Okay do it to the glory of god and think about who needs that. That los worm. Wonderful bread you know. Who can you teach to make that you know. Who can you teach too so that things carry on. Yeah so i just. I absolutely loved that. Because you know i think that's really a way of looking at skills and talents and gifts from the lord in a way that you don't hear talked about because it's easy don't give it much value Yeah you're you're gifted horse trainer. Get me with that horse. I'd probably get trampled. But that's a gift that you have and you've learned from that and you shared it with other people and other people have have learned to ride and to do wonderful things with horses through you and that was a gift that impacted their life. It's a it's a gift west. When when did you first acknowledged. Now your dad was a pastor right right when did you. I really know that you were using you. Were combining a creative talent. You had to serve when the when that melded with your faith. Well i have detained. I being in a preacher's kid. I was lake five years old. I was in my dad's church in montgomery alabama. We had a guest speaker and that speaker in maybe cry. That speaker asked very specifically in a wonderful sermon. Who wanted to give their life toward well. I was a preacher's kid. I kind of. I was embarrassed. I didn't wanna you know. I knew it was something that each person had to do individually. But i was like five years old and i thought well. They're gonna think i'm kind of silly. Everybody sees s preacher's kid why she raised her hand way. Saying i wanna give my life to the. Is she already a christian where she not christian but i knew it had to be personal and had to be something that i did myself and i did it as five years old and i knew what i was doing. I knew exactly what i was doing. And at that point in my life we hadn't done too much yet Talent wise or music wise or anything along came from a very musical family. My parents were both musical and my parents had met during a radio shows doing musician stuff when they were when they were young people and So because there wasn't any television back then boys and girls anyway As dad was a pastor our family just naturally became the special music and so we started singing doing duets and quartets and trios and solos and everything. When i was when i was a kid and one thing that my mom was impressed on me was well bulk. Parents-to-be book wealth migrants but especially on Was that it wasn't about me. It was about serving the lord. And i have to tell you there were times When i was tired. Or i didn't feel do and getting up there and singing and whatever and i could set it up part because of what my mom and dad had impressed on me of saying. This isn't about this abaco board and i sing as sunday him and if i can think of singing to him not to the people when singing as as an offering worship to him. That's all jammed. That's another wonderful point and it is it. You and i talked about this a little bit before we got onto the air that it really is all about him. And you were mentioning a book you reading at at centers on ecclesiastes in very creative way at tells us if what we're doing is not serving the lord thin it's just so much fluff in the wind it really is and The older i get the more. I realize that the fame and the Accolades and all the stuff that people so yearn for nandor stand that but the lord is keeping track and he knows he looks at our hearts and he knows what we're doing and why and you're less that bless that in ways that we don't know i love the i love the movie. Pay it forward. I don't know if you're familiar with that or not. But he knows. The little kid comes to the end and he thinks his project. He thinks his experiment didn't work and it did work. It went all over the place and he and know. And that's what happens with our lives. We don't get to know the result. Sometimes the thing you say or do or the see that you plant or that help that you gave somebody when they were down and out or when they were just so discouraged that may be the thing that saved their lives in your and you never know it because there's so many ways to go with you at your you and i met at a christian writer's conference in july twenty nineteen right. It's just like you know there's just like the spotlight that was on your. I went her. I did this with you. You know that. I guess that's how it works anyway. Not only of course. Are you a singer. But you're an author. I want to get into that just a little bit two things. I wanna share with the audience one because this is just this is hand in the cookie jar so you can get the sun amazon along with everything else. I this is just like from the introduction. It would give you an idea of where jan goes out. good morning. This is god. I will be handling all of your problems today. I won't be needing your help. Can you conceive of starting each day with that message. Most of the time we live our lives as if we think he needs our help like he hasn't quite figured out how to make the world work yet so often we take matters into our own hands either to help ourselves or to help him. That's when things get interesting. I hope you enjoy the following true stories from my life. Sometimes he has to tell me to take my hand out of the cookie jar and you have some of the most creative stories in here and there and you. You also have a project coming up when i want to share this with the audience. Because it's not singing and it's not really writing but it's taking your performance ability and a message that matters and sharing it in a very unique way and c s lewis's involved so yes he is One of my favorite authors and my son's favorite author as he was growing up we read chronicles of narnia. And if you all haven't read those books please get them and read them. But what i'm working on. is this coming. Spring is to Begin reading those books on my youtube channel and I do with a british accent character. Voices and stuff like that. She's share some of that with us. Just the beginning of the first book starts like this. If i can remember once there were four children whose names. He taught susan edmund and lucy. This is the story about something happened to them when they were sent away from london. The war because the air raids. They were sent him house old. Professor we lived in the heart of the country ten miles from the nearest railway station and two miles from this post office. That's to be fun out this one. it's one of the stories are on and then and then curator voices and stuff is a lot of fun. And and what i'll do is i'll read a series like i'll read Probably a chapter and we'll a chapter at a time and will probably be a weekly thing now for me. What that what that sounds like is providing access You know people today there especially young people there. So they're born into the swipe generation they know how to take a screen and swipe across it to get content to get input and this brings something amazing and powerful in a gift to a totally new audience. But what was. What inspired you to do this. Well i know your son. Yeah i guess it would be my my son because I was introduced to the books back By by college students really and Yeah some college students. Were studying it at a church where i was on I was on staff. And so i began to look into them and then when my son was of age where he could appreciate them which was pretty on us about i think eight. Maybe when we started bringing these and And he just loved the books and i would read them to him and then he wanted me to go to a school and read them to the kids at school and over so so from something so simple and this i think is something that you know for. Those of you are listening. This is something that i have found in my own life and we we actually see it in the bible as we as we follow characters through their lives and as john just said something that she was exposed to through her job and then by reading it to her son when he was small that that c does grow in. Now something that was you know. Maybe so normal all of a sudden. There's that creative tap and now jan is going to be bringing that to a new generation in a whole new way so i have another question for you jan. Yeah okay so. I haven't telegraphed any of these to you. Say you know what was probably your greatest surprise. in a good way or maybe a not so good way as you move your career forward. She took your gifts in your talents in brought them to people You know. I guess. I'd have to say that Pretty much every job and every chaining you know whether it's using talents or or whatever has it's almost been a surprise. It's almost been you know you can see. It's not something that i worked to get. It's something the lord brought to me that just kind of a full do what you know. And yeah it really. It really has been kind of one of those things that the lord has moved me into these different situations and he. Interestingly talking to a horse reader When i had that conversation with the in the car about what do you want me to do. And and electron stuff. I had in my mind that i was going to do one specific thing you know just just just one direction lord i wanna go like a like a like a racehorse okay. Made me you racehorse. I can go in one direction. And he said no. You're more of a wild horse. And i want you to buckle your seatbelt and follow me. Because i'm not just going you in one place and not just doing one thing. You're going to be over here doing this. And then i'm gonna move you over there. India and whatever not getting any specifics. But just getting matt in my head where i could be satisfied with that. He says for some people i set them on track and that one track in. That's where they go and that's good. That's where they're supposed to be but for you. It's not going to be that way. And i think that's why so important to listen to the lord for the individual thing that he gives us. You know that that that just is really such an interesting point jan Because i know people that go that have followed. You know the one my husband. For example he he did one thing for all of his career and he he was fabulous. He just kept growing with growing with it and had all these different careers for me. I know that the reason god kept changing. It is because my like my whole life has always been there. But for the grace of god go i and it's there have been so many times in business or politics or be known publicly or whatever it was that was on the cusp of becoming someone and i think he said notes time to take you to some place else where your nobody again last. Ib tempted in thinking. I was someone you know. That's exactly right lynn. yeah. I agree with that. And he particularly some of us aid type personalities type papers now is whenever you say It's we really. We're we're gonna take that bit we're gonna go and we're going to rise to the top and whatever no it don't matter if you're doing what the lord wants you to do he'll put you where you are and with the people that you to be with you know. I often think of Billy graham gave a lot of Credit to his sunday schoolteacher for sending him on the right and we don't know who it is that were influencing who is life. Were touching with what individual thing and It's it's part of that. Pay it forward. Thing i just. I just watched that movie with my dad. When he was getting quite elderly he was you know he's in his eighties and he looked at me one day and he was usually a very kind of person and is kind of surprising he said to me. You don't jam. Sometimes i just wonder if my ministry has meant anything to anybody. Maybe it just made me sandwich back and i said dad i mean just if you look at your kids if nothing else you know. I know you're ministry has meant a lot to a lot of people but he you know he didn't know well at that time so i left the house that day and i prayed as i got in my car. Would you show him and that next week. He got a phone call from a man. Oh my word. This was someone who had been Eleven year old boy in our church in montgomery alabama who had been thrown from his horse and he was trying to jump a fence and the or spot in throwing into a bar where fence and his arm was severed at the shoulder. And i was. I was that little five year old girl that who had taken. Just give my life to the lord. And i'm praying all lord kim. You saw them back on or anything. What for richard vs lessons are well. They were not able to repair that arm. And richard we know went through his life without without that arm but then next week dad gets food call and it and the person on the other line says dr sanders. Do you remember me. This is richard bond from your church in alabama and answers. Of course earn you richard and he says well i just called to tell you what a difference you have made in my life and a dance. You know was just flabbergasted because this is this is like been over fifteen years since they have had any contact at all any said. We'll tell you your life. Richard and he said well. I'm a Actually i'm a rocket scientist for nasa and base. Eight or two rocket is okay. Well he was and he figured out different calculations for you know for nasa and he said i have a wonderful wife and kids and everything. He's said the thing that i that i wanted to tell you about was that you changed my life when you came into my hospital room ch and my arm severed you put a sign at the end of my bed that said not somehow but triumphantly eddie said i want you to know that he came by life motto not somehow but triumphantly and he said i i told my prosthesis getting the guy who has the shop where he gets his prosthetics is i told him about that and he made a big sign that says not somehow triumphantly and put it over his counter where people come in to get their prosthetics and you just never know where something goes but you tell your dad right now. I'm writing that down here we are. We're in this live pastor. I'm writing down what you told him what you wrote around his bedside however many yeah our years ago yeah it was probably seventy years ago now. not somehow but trounson lee and that is a beautiful motto whether whether you have some deficiency like that or not but you know we look people like john ericsson and look at her artwork. Oh my word and she paints with a brush in her mouth. Incredible and i think that's truly the best gift is that it's available to everyone. It isn't necessarily the creative talent that that god gave you But it is to take the vision that he has for you and to own the vision. And that's what your father gave richard. He gave him the vision that had to come through him from getting right. And and to be that conduit and that's just one story out of i'm sure are so many. Yes and oh man. There's so many ways to go here. That takes us back again to ecclesiastical that it is it is what your relationship with. The lord is that determines the outcome of your life here no matter if you're famous or you're a rocket scientist and even when you don't think that you're pitiful gift in it's it's it's the holiday season. Were recording this. But i think of the drummer boy. I have nothing but yet you have everything. Yes yes and you have no idea what that gift how that gift is touching somebody else. Take the little bit that you have and do whatever you can with that and know that god will lessen multiply like he did the lows in the fishes. That little kid. We'll get the little kid in. The crowd. had filed stupid or deficient lows. And and the lord look with alerted with that you just never know you know. I think a sign that would be good for a lot of creative people. Because you know going into any business whether it's a creative business or one that's very product driven even if it's shoelaces is is is to write this down and and meditate on this regularly that let god bring the increase. Don't sit there and do your. This is what i have to produce. In order to. If i if god puts you to it he is gonna make you able to bring it through even if you don't see and my goodness you know. Isn't the lord good to bring so many things back so now going to segue again because i just things jan i wanna share with our are so unique when we were at the montrose christian writing conference couple years ago. There's there's a thursday night where opportunity stand up and you could do your whatever it is that you do. You could read out of your booker. would you didn't read out of back. Now you've walked up there. Just jan stood up from the audience. Got out of her chair. Watching the front stood in front of the microphone. There was no music. There was no special lighting and you did a speech that mary magdalene could have spoken and i just sat there because it was if somehow the world shrink and there was no distraction. There was nothing on the outside. There was just the heart of mary. Mandolin pouring itself in front of my eyes. Tell us about that. Oh well you know. When when i was on a church staff and you know charlotte north carolina and the pastor at actually done a lot of work in hollywood him and stuff and he wanted to do a production at easter and he asked me what i write. Something what i do something what to do with the lord gave me this recent wary magdalene and put yourself in her shoes and what. She was feeling experiencing. And so that's what i. That's what i did and i think that's that's the key to any kind of any kind of drama or any kind of Soliloquies or anything like that. We have to say lord. Show me what was happening. Me who this person was and how they fell and and then then you express it. It's not it can't be. It can't be a foam thing ray Oh we're just something that we fantasize right but something that award really opens our eyes to what that person was probably feeling or thinking and what they experienced and the transformation and the going from being demon possessed Just totally distraught person to being that friend of jesus that was so loud and that was with him and him worker at tremendously difficult times and and in totally transforming her life and that was one of the most powerful moments i've ever seen in. It just showed me the possibility of what can happen. That's another thing we wanted to do on youtube. That's another would have been going. Come on jim. I know you're inspired like so. That was that was inspired. N every every person who has some creative gift that they used the ward or even if they don't They know what it's like to be inspired to have something just rush through them and somehow it's expressed by whatever it is that they do but when i went to ask you about. Is this regular jobs. You you mentioned there were times. You didn't wanna get up and sing. There are times when if you're a writer you stare at the blank page so you have promised people whether you have a deadline or your audience. Says i know that that this is going to be showing up every tuesday at ten. And i and i'm sitting here looking at this going okay. It's nine thirty. And i got nothing. Yeah so in moments when creativity stalls or is on hiatus or takes a coffee break you know. What can you share with the audience about those moments. Oh you know sometimes you really do just need to take a break and take arrests and and say again say lord you know i have this on my heart and i know that you put it there so i'm gonna come back and talk to you about this again in three days in a week in you know whatever you whatever you wanna do Just in the quietness that you just you. Just sit there. Sometimes you turn to think too hard. It's thing of just letting it flow. You know i. I have times where. I don't know if other people do this but it's really helpful to me. I will have what i call conversations with the lord. Were i get out a tablet and my pan and i just right what i'm thinking. I just like instead of praying out. Loud i i write it down and all right. Oh my thoughts. And i just telling whatever and sometimes it's not good sometimes. I'm not sad or frustrated. You know and i and i just let it slow and then i listened for him and i i write back. Just what does just that flow. What he's saying meaning often he asked me questions. Need says I know it's not meeting again. That up because i wouldn't say that but that that flow comes in i get direction from those conversations with him and you can rain down. You don't have to write them down but just that quiet was with the lord and the and the time of of praying. Ncaa from. I believe you've put this on my heart. And i'm just gonna be quiet before you. And when you and i'm going to trust you to empower me and to inspire me at the right time and i and i promise you think when you do that that is good. Yeah what a what a grieving minder that. Sometimes the prussians are worldly driven. And we always have the one source to go to and if truly the creativity of something that god wants to press through you for his Because i believe that we all have the same purpose and that's bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth today. We're starting to run out of time. And i pay to have to wrap this up but i just wanna tell the audience that jan brookhart. We're going to have shown notes from her so you'll be able to get a hold of her. You'll be able to listen to her. Sing on youtube and i'm hoping soon can listen. You can share the chronicles of narnia. Or maybe a soliloquy s if there's just so many good things coming jan sheriff you would just one last thought this. I know that you've worked with young people and people all ages but for those who are you know. They're not standing on firm ground yet. Just what's up just a parting. Thought you'd like to leave them. Well i guess the thing that i would tell you is that i. I've been through a lot in my life. It hasn't all been you know you heard the little the little bio and that's some good stuff. There's been a lot of now. It's been a lot of heart stuff. And i can tell you that god is faithful and there is no person. There is no family member there is. There's nothing that you can lean on like leaning on award and to find to be able to say to him aright lord it just as an experiment. If you don't believe laura. I'm gonna give you my life. I want you to wash clean. I'm going to start over again and fill me with your spirit. Filled with who you are i wanted to be. I wanna be joined teen to you and walk with you. And i'll see what you do in my life Just that understanding that confidence that it is through him. That we live and move in here are being. He's the creator he knows he knows and he knows all this stuff going on. He knows what we can do what we can't do what he wants us to do. What he doesn't listen to. What he's he's the author of it all so relax. That's message relax and trust lacks relax trust. That's a wonderful way con confidence. I'm sorry repeat that. I was saying positive confidence. Ha's confidence not somehow. But i am faintly that that is so good and i just wanna thank the audience for being with us today. This is lynn. Baber with jan. Brookhart on creatively christian. podcasts were just gonna. We're going to end in a prayer because we're all here for the same reason. Jesus christ our lord and we love him and praise him and anything we have from this medium to connect with you to whatever gifts he gives us for his service that he gives you for your service in. This is the only reason that we're here. So heavenly father. I just thank you so much for this opportunity today for us to gather together. Some of us Are hearing some of us are seeing and john. And i are here in the present with you but no matter what day you listen to this the lord is with you in this moment and i'm just gonna go back to this because this is a pearl no matter what say not somehow but triumphantly because the triumph belongs to jesus christ. It is a finished action. You are blessed. We are grateful. We are thankful. And we pray this in the name of christ amen and thank you so much. Thank you rim been filed to seeing what was coming up next. Thank you and we'll still next time. Thanks so much for listening today to see the show notes where we put resources mentioned in this episode. You can head on over to the often. Immediate dot com. Forward slash jan creatively christian is a product of the off any media. You can find out. More at the opening media dot com. This show is hosted by brennan worth andrea. Sandifer bill brooks and lynn babe. Our logo is by bill brooks. Our music is by bill brooks andrea sandifer to join our exclusive patron community which includes bonus episodes and so much more go to the often media dot com forward slash creatively christie have a blessed day and keep on creating for our lord.

jan brookhart jan brandon hollingsworth lynn bieber foundation association ministry of encouragement espe crystal cathedral of garden gr angelus temple nandor susan edmund alabama Baber lynn linnet richard montgomery bethesda lord kim dr sanders richard bond
Getting Politics Out of the COVID-19 Response

GovExec Daily

24:48 min | 2 months ago

Getting Politics Out of the COVID-19 Response

"This exact date we bring you the federal stories really matter. It's february fourth twenty twenty. One i'm rush opportunity. Where nearly a full year into the novel coronavirus pandemic that has claimed the lives of over four hundred fifty thousand americans and the national local and state vaccination distribution planning is still a work in progress. Misinformation has been rampant and the broader conversation around the covid. Nineteen response has been deeply politicized while president. Joe biden has promised to unify the country in address. The pandemic response is failures. The political divide remains a hurdle to beating the virus for most americans. The covid nineteen pandemic has been far more than just an abstract political debate playing out in the wilds of cyberspace. A january survey by the university of south florida school of public affairs florida's center for cybersecurity found that two thirds of americans surveyed said that they either somewhat or strongly agreed that the covid nineteen pandemic has been politicized both social media in the mainstream media. This is the biden administration's task find a way to take the politics out of what is in a political issue to beat back the pandemic the federal government must find a way to communicate to all americans that it is working in. Everyone's interest dr ron. Sanders was a federal civil service for almost forty years serving senior positions with the defense department. The irs the office of personnel management. And the us intelligence community. He's currently staff director for the florida center for cybersecurity and Exact contributor right now he has a post on our site headlined to beat the pandemic biden needs to take politics out of it. Dr sanders will join me. After a short break to explain and discuss how the ministration de politicized the vaccine distribution and the next stages of the covid nineteen response. President joe biden's administration came into office last month in the middle of a pandemic. This claimed the lives of over four hundred thousand americans. The challenge that awaits biden will not be easy as administration tries to distribute administer vaccine doses to hundreds of millions of americans live a nation deeply divided by its politics dr ronald sanders was a federal civil service for almost forty years serving in senior positions with the defense department. Irs in the office of personnel management. He also served as vice president with booz allen hamilton and until his resignation in october was the presidentially appointed chair of the federal salary. Council is currently staff director for the florida center for cybersecurity. And he's a key contributor. You currently has a post on our side right now. Headlined to beat the pandemic biden needs to take the politics out of it. He joins the show now to discuss. How the administration can politicize the vaccine bution and the broader covid nineteen response. Welcome to the program dry. Glad flabby here. The university of south florida school of public affairs and for the center for cybersecurity survey Recently showed that americans do think the pandemic response has been too politicized. How did the respondents say that. That politicisation played out. Well didn't really ask them for the origins of that perception. However i think the less call at the mill you or the debate over cove in nineteen and mitigation strategies has been a subject of much political commentary literally today but it certainly over the course of the fall and the presidential election campaign and rawson just add as an aside folks may be wondering why florida senators security is interested in covid nineteen. We are interested in only because of the influence of social media. And what's the to those of us in the cyber security. Business is at miss and disinformation campaigns. With the russians call measures the whole influence of social media on the body. Politic as become cardinals. Cybersecurity is no longer just ones and zeros is what people get off the internet and if we have time i'd like to share with you some of the longer solutions that we've tita tried to deal with how we better educate american citizens what it means to be a twenty century cyber citizen why americans think this assault politicized uni park because all you had to do is turn on the evening news or read the headlines in the paper that during the presidential campaign both candidates talked about it. There's lots of given him back and forth lots of conversation about fake news etcetera a few out into the point when we really start survey the net result of all that was confused americans. They did not know who to you happen to live at what was turned around state in the presidential election. And i can tell you that when we we were boarded with lots of tv ads about the political campaigns really outrageous land for both sides. But i think most americans have come to realize anything you see on tv especially if it is. An endorsement of some kind should be taken with a grain of salt. Somebody's trying to sell you something whether it's or breakfast cereal or political candidate so we think that with grain of salt. I don't think we learn how to do that yet. Over things come across over the internet or from things that come across from what used to be our most trusted source of information and that is a elected officials particularly officials in national office. So that's a milieu. In which that survey was undertaken that the americans didn't know who to trust the clearly did not necessarily federal government whether that's the president or the various organs or agencies of that government like cdc or national institutes without. It's not clear whether they trusted the opposing artie as well. So that survey started. And that's where we began to ask americans where they were getting their information about covid nineteen and you can read the results for yourself. nothing problematic. So let's let's pop into social media than On on your post on our site you sort of noted The role that social media can play in politicizing issues. That may not have those tinges in them inherently Or some that do certainly that have policy implications like gun violence an immigration and i think particularly of a pre pandemic The anti vaccination movement more. Broadly has played out a lot on social media. So what can we learn about the push to vaccinate people in the cove nineteen response from social media's role in these previous issues. Well i if it's on. The internet must be true right. Everything looks credible comes across the internet. I think that's a large part of the problem that we're dealing with. Here's less visible part of the problem in our research doesn't examine this but lots of other sources app and that is the origin of much of the debate around kobe. Nineteen as well as many of these other issues at their origins in either box in other words non humans and or There are. They originated overseas from folks that had ferris intent. Their intent was not to inform their intent was to stir up trouble. And i don't care whether you point to the chinese or the russians or the iranians or the north koreans or that cyber criminal organizations that in many cases service their proxies lots of people have traced the origins of much of this debate including a lot of the anti vaccination debate including the anti mask debate. In fact i saw one study. Ross it suggested a lot of the anti mask. Debate originated from a very few second amendment sites. That were in business both. Four after nineteen advocating for gun freedom gun ownership and the freedom to bear ours and in those cases much of their material was warmed over from foreign sources in bonds. So we don't know. The extent of that problem is hard to discern and fathom but that's is that backdrop that has led many americans to wonder whether official sources from cdc robby naish from a president of past and current from anyone in an official capacity weather there objectively motivated or whether they have some other alterior motive interesting that one of the most trusted sources happens to be my good friend. Tony kelsey fellow civil servants and that's another whole storyline ear the need for a professional congress civil servants who whatever political persuasion. You may be retained some credibility in matters such as this now one other issue that that americans are having to deal with with covid nineteen much if not most of the four against can be resolved resigned giving evidence now that scientific evidence is imperfect. We're learning as we go. And there are happening. Instances where unfortunately for credibility purposes an agency. Cdc has said one thing until the research says something else and then they retract and revise. That's not politically motivated. It was based on the best scientific evidence at the time in that evidence changes over time. But it's linked to a dilution mnuchin of credibility or official government sources. So americans turn to any source that can family members facebook holidays especially equal. Who re tweeted things that may not. They may not have originated since it comes from them and i trust them. Dan get it must be true. Let's let's talk a little bit about that about the trust and the ability to get americans to trust the messaging around Know joe biden's predecessor. Donald trump locked horns lot democratic governors with some republican governors particularly in the spring when we were talking about supplies and testing and stuff like that and even with with anthony fao. She'd there was some sort of attacking of his credentials or his Trustworthiness how does how do the politics of dealing with state local federal government. How does that trust. Truscott's built up for this administration in order to de politicize it. Well i think there are short longer term strategies that have to be undertaken in Are not going to suddenly recapture the trust of probably forty nine percent of americans and Ross you saw from the results of our survey that how one views things like kobe. Nineteen science rattled relatively objective. Relatively scientific things like ovid nineteen through the land of their political affiliation has a lot to do with whether they believe it or not so in the shorter. I'm not sure that easily capture both again especially for those americans who are who remain sceptical off the origins of this information and hence the information itself on the other hand. This is a slippery slope. But i do think. Governments particularly our federal government The agencies of that federal government other health organizations are gonna have to learn to be as. I hate to use this word but i will as manipulative. About the information they disseminate as the opponents they are trying to set are negative. The standard government inflammation release. Its loss in the social media noise again foreign against but the now result is americans don't know who to trust and it is. It's too easy to lay all this propaganda. And in some could i do think however before we start sliding down that slippery slow government just need to be getting better at using social media to disseminate information and to counter miss and information. And we don't know how to do that very well. I can speak to some of that from my ears. As a civil servant dow was always seen as sort of taboo. Don't advocate we. Just we just tell the facts. While we've seen on social media what happens to the fact so they gave slanted in colored and interpreted and reinterpreted in this in disintermediated so think governments can learn to combat. Ask because people are listening to it. They're they're getting many of their sources of information come from social media and so government needs to learn how to play that game. We we had some Public administration messaging kind of experts on the show about getting vaccination news out there and one of the things that struck me in talking to them on building trust from governments To the people was how much it was chasing in the sense that you're always one step behind the bad information. How how does. How do you ameliorate that on social media. Well i think certainly union getting better at trailing while you may be behind. You're not that far behind your reaction time improves. Secondly i think as we learn how to do this better. You can begin to anticipate for example even something as simple as identifying the origins of a particular piece of misery. Disinformation can do a lot to either hurt or help. His credibility so of americans knew for example. That much of the anti mask information was coming from either gun rights sites or even further from foreign sites or foreign origin or even bots. That made it look like tens of thousands of people were liking something when in fact narrower. No humans in the loop if people knew that or could be taught how to find that out. That's one way of driving a stake through the heart of a lotta dismissing this information in raw snaps one of the longer term strategies that we have advocated in this area that is to teach our citizens Beginning at an early age first time voters young voters how to discern misinformation out in trace it sources in his origins. Had a fact. Check on your own you think. Digital natives like our younger folks will do that as a matter of course in fact what we believe is that they take it for granted than people my generation or yours. We tend to look at a lot of stuff likely do tv. S there may be. Carlos truth narrow. We should take it for what it's worth where again this is purely hypothetical our office. There is some research that could happen if bears more. But more i pop assisted younger folks so call digital natives grownup steeped and they're so they take it for granted because they take it for granted they don't bother to sort of heal layers of the onion. Fine is this coming from a box isn't coming from eastern europe or the far east is coming from somebody who has an old terrier motive to just so the seeds of distrust solid. Should we take with a grain of salt. So i guess we'll sort of end up on this. You know what. What are the sort of broad based recommendations for The you think the the biden administration from your time as a civil servant your time You know working with the trump administration To get non political good information about the coronavirus response specifically with regards to vaccines. How can the health agencies how can the biden administration. How can they do this without getting into the hard edge politics in a deeply divided country. Well i think there are a couple of opportunities. None of them Guaranteed success but again start with backdrop with all due respect government affairs specialists need understand social engineering and social media. Understand how to use the tool both in offense and defensive circumstance. We just need to get better at it and again that makes a lot of people nervous but if you start with the premise that government is hamstrung and everybody who wants to take issue with. That isn't than you're immediately plane but from behind in government can't i do think identify trusted sources is another way of doing it in disseminating information from those trusted sources don't g. as a trusted source there are other trusted Sources we have found. That local media is a trusted source. There are some family members that are trusted source Don't have good answers for identify them and started disseminate through them but there are trusted. Sources that dorfman can use. I think one of the things that government is just now coming to realize is that we've we've been faced with a paradigm shift. Before social media you disseminate something. It was so completely decentralized and would go out from government website in would be picked up by local news outlets even the national outlets would pick it off but it would depend our local outlet to actually donate and certainly on the response to that. Nobody's opinion ever made the national light of day now. Everything is national and international. Everybody's voice is gone to scale. And i think again learning how to combat so that there are trusted voices in response there. Their trusted voices in first resort. Here's what we know. And then there are trusted voices in response. Here's what you've heard. That just isn't true. I think that's going to help. But i do. A lot of this. Still comes down to long-term education. Educating citizens yom demographic whatever demographic second happened to be part of that you can't you cannot trust social media anymore that you can trust an ad trying to sell you something on tv you need to be able to discern scrape away all the noise to get carl truth and if he can't do it at its source and there may be other ways of getting to the truth and tracking all of that traffic on the internet and responding to. It is another way of doing it. I i have to add. Ross we just the center for cybersecurity and a dc think tank. The new america foundation have just partnered. We just give them a grant to do research on what we're calling cyber citizenship with an initial focus on yom first time voters. How do we teach them to discern the difference between Information are one and the ground truth so far as they can tell on the other. That's a skill are ways to do it. And they need to be taught at school civics and they're not so we partnered with the new american foundation and a whole bunch of k. Through twelve educators and media literacy experts and cybersecurity experts think about ways that we can begin educating students it literally to the point. Disseminating effective exercises adolescent plans in curricula to twelve educators. So they can begin spreading the word. Here's how you discern the difference but they can't stop you can start there but it can't stop there. You need to be educating people of our generation as well and that doesn't bear immediate results but it will eventually at least our glass half full very optimistic. I think we can all certainly get behind that as as we move into this. Next stage of pandemic response and people can Be a little more discerning about in a little more trusting of of the right information as it comes to them. We haven't even begun. The deal is much more controversial policy. Issues that are facing this administration did immigration climate change cetera. Where the science itself is going to be much more subject to dispute added just think about how social media is likely to play in that debate particularly as congress takes up those measures and begins to listen more and more and more to that thousands of hundreds of thousands of voices on social media so inside bringing new world out there air. There certainly is a lot of noise to cut through and again. I'm i appreciate Your organization's work on this issue. And thanks for me on the with us. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening daily february. Fourth duffy's daily was produced by it and butler and hosted by me ross fraternity one dr sanders for joining the show. Our music is a song signals by catfish teens. Sure rigor view and subscribe on apple. Podcasts or google podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. You can email us any feedback at podcast dot com or hit us up on twitter at govern sec. We'd love to hear from you. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

biden administration biden office of personnel management defense department university of south florida sc dr ron florida center for cybersecuri Dr sanders President joe biden dr ronald sanders florida center for cybersecuri university of south florida sc center for cybersecurity surve uni park joe biden Irs robby naish Tony kelsey cdc federal government
Dr. Roz Show: How to Survive Covid-19 with Covid-19 Survivor and ER Physician Dr. Alicia N.P Sanders

Dr. Roz Show: The Relationship with Yourself

1:01:21 hr | 10 months ago

Dr. Roz Show: How to Survive Covid-19 with Covid-19 Survivor and ER Physician Dr. Alicia N.P Sanders

"Hi Friends. If you haven't heard about, anchor is the easiest way to make podcast. Let me explain first off, guys. It's free. Tools that allow you to record and edit your podcast. Right from your phone or computer. Anchor will distributor podcast for you, so it can be hard on spotify apple podcast and many more. You can even make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place, so go ahead right now. Download the free. Ankara APP or go to Anchor Dot FM to get started. I can't wait to see you here. Are A hey, guys. We figured it out, we think. So I have invited a- for some reason. Both of our phones were acting crazy and our desktops were acting crazy. So we were both struggling on trying to make this work but I think we. Thank you group. Number Hector for guiding US your. Own. Success! Alright hi Dr Elite show. I am so excited to get you here. To our group about old. Holds it nineteen especially because it's just so much. So much misinformation. Yup. That's out there as well. With this is a five G., conspiracy and own. Mess! Bash. You know it's just. It's a lot of craziness going on so I am. So happy to have you. On tonight. Tapped isn't hurt. or Bearing with US MIA my technological difficulties. I couldn't. Be, I, don't know something. CREPE with my desktop am phone. I'm Su. Wasn't even given the option to. In, but guys as we are. as we are talking if he'd have questions. Other Lisa. Please please please put them in the chat. And Don't forgive them. Won't forget those burning questions. But I just wanted to tell you overt about Dr. Do Sir. Vince nights sister. She's a former. University. Jeez Mundell sister. Greek Margaret Sisters so all the bounces in the business. Please say hi to you, so you're in the building. Is Amazing. She's my Georgia Peach sister. would. She's amazing and she is on the front lines in these emergency one dealing with Kobe nineteen eight cents. And we are so excited to. Have you here with US tonight. Because I know dead. You are busy. I other there is. Just so much going on, and you're probably tired from work. You Know Day in and day out the we are so happy. Here with US tonight for this important conversation. Marriage focus. Thank you again for his bearing with and. Technical difficulties. Thank you there and live. Your support. Guiding us through this because it was, it was a hot mess behind. The scenes will struggle trying to figure it out, but. We are. In so I'm so happy so happy so happy so happy That we have you tonight and out the most burning question that we have tonight is. what's what more can we do to protect ourselves? Snows other than we're in the. And gloves and wash it, he. What more can we do? Honestly. So what we've been finding is that it to people have were masks that gives you the greatest chance of not contracting the virus, so I know you know. If there's something more more frequent hand washing using hand sanitizer wiping down Those are really the main things that keep you virus free if you are at least six feet apart from someone, even if there's a cough, sneeze or something like that, they don't have enough mask you do You are still pretty much. We've found pretty much protected. So even you're gonNA. Go this. You'RE GONNA go to the grocery store. You're going to go. Different places where they're going to be people who choose not workplace masks if you. Heat your yourself. At least six feet away from them were guardless of what they do talking coughing sneezing six feet has been shown to be a good distance where whatever particles I. if they have the virus, you should Noggin infecting your even. If he face mask. So. Aside assassin that yeah that that really is the main thing to do. You can There have been obviously nothing's truly proven at this point. Because everything is a study, you know we will have real data from what works what doesn't work for five six years, but vitamin C. and. Zinc have been shown to be a little bit protective in terms of your immune system keeping you. Should you know be around the virus or put yourself in a position to potentially contract Bart's? Oh, thank you, thank you. Thank you for sharing that especially that piece about the mass because before they were saying that the mass doesn't protect you. Protect others from you, but you know you're saying tonight. We're that mass because it also. Gives you a barrier to anyone else around you. Absolutely absolutely. So thank you for saying that. We heard our president saying that. The LUPUS. Drug. Is Like Really. is like solving the world. And then we've heard different. We've heard the side effects a horrible. We've heard that. You know it. It's not good so what get lots on that? Well we found that it is not. It is not a prophylactic drug, and it's actually in the studies that we've. been able to at least extrapolate a little bit of data from it is not. Effective against covid nineteen The side effect profile is too great to say yes, this works, so it is not. We do not recommend that there is another one. Disappear that it is in immunomodulating drugs. That has been showing some promise in a lot of studies, but like I said we won't know for sure. What that's going to really look. Probably for another year, so, but that's looking better in clinical trials than any of the hydrochloric or any of that, so I would not recommend that that drug is. It's got a really. Side effect profile so I mean even people who have lupus you know. They would the fact that they were breasts. Those side effects instead of having the actual disease lupus in its flares is very tell so. That's not one of those. Like, please write me a prescription is not. It is not a good draw. elderberry. I'm sorry you grew. Oh. Yes, yes, yes, at the Wanda about she'd say L. Developing. Well that. One also has been proven to be helpful you can. It's it's kind of like a placebo where you feel like it works. By to fault you, but it's not been proven to be one of the ones that really focused the immune system honestly. So as zinc, can you repeat the to that Blue Music? Something, vitamin, C. and zinc. Vitamin. Singing. Thank you for sharing that. The latest information that we've been hearing, is that we? Well that we know is that it's really affecting the African American community yes. It's not there. We're having a breathing problems. It's more so Blood clots and Yeah. And and heart of things of that nature. So could you speak to that because that's what? That's what. That's what I really wanted you lying here tonight. We have a large African American. Population in this room. And I really just wanted. To really year from doctor who can really tell us? If, it's beneficial or non-beneficiary what we need to do to protect ourselves. You know besides against zinc and vitamin. newsy yet. Think Beside Hornets. Go ahead I'm sorry. As a think, orange juice, vitamin, C, O, O, the. Thank you, thank you. you know I mean that's terrifying because I keep seeing a lot of black men. We're losing a lot of black men and so. How is this disease affecting? Black men more than you know. More than the rest of the population. Yes, so I, if we tease out the actual African American community and We just put it out there. There are also Brown people as well as native Americans that are being hit hard. It's mainly. These situations about socioeconomic status and Ability to receive healthcare so a lot of these native American Patients what not don't have a lot of access to health care, and so they're? Not hearing about this in the mainstream media, but it is out there in the medical community they're they're dying. At a very rapid rate is well Um so if if you just take some of the factors of what we are like are people are like we have grandma. It brother sister lived in the house with us, so we're all in most borders. There's not you know there's not a lot of places where we can go in our house, so we're all very close, so we found that that total household density. That's a week. Consider you know how how many people are GonNa House Per Square. Footage makes a huge difference in terms of infection rates and how rapid spreads We just talked about social conditions. Of the majority of African American neighborhoods where we live in an in areas that do not have healthcare that's close and we don't we. We have a generalized distrust of the healthcare that is near us the ones that come to our communities. We you know we have aside I because. Do you really want to help us or are you just really you know there? Because the government made you set up a location in our area so right that. A lie into it as well. We're finding with our black men specifically They tend to have jobs that. Are Not considered frontline, but they are essential. We have trash workers. We have bus drivers. We have janitors. We have cashiers, and those are essential, and people aren't being very. They're not social distancing from them in their jobs, just like the gentleman at Chicago where the people coming on coughing it his face, and then he ultimately ended up dying Govan. There are black men are in these. Positions and no one's willing being safe around them. Even if they themselves are trying to be saved. so it's it goes to their type employment. Were also in food deserts. The healthy food options are very liberal during. which goes into our overall health status which makes us more susceptible to the chronic illnesses, the high blood pressure diabetes, the asthma, so old plays into it, so it is a mole type rants It's it's a multi blanche. Reasons as to why are our community? In specifically? Our men are being targeted by the viruses you will. Unfortunately so it's I, mean it. It's yeah, so many different layers to it There's also something in in how the actual virus ads in the body you mention. Blood clots and heart attack. We did find that it actually does attack the blood vessels, so when initially came out, and we're getting all the information in Italy it looked like it was a respiratory illness. You know people are Losing Nebraska am we're putting them on bit layers in their dock, but we found out. Is that is not a primary respiratory illness? Yes, you respiratory symptom, but it's affecting the blood vessels on a micro level. So, there are blood vessels throughout the loans in that seems to be one of the most susceptible areas, but men have this receptor that the virus is. Ace to and they have a few more of these receptors in areas of their body than women do, and so that also could be contributing to why they're more greatly affected than women overall as well so it's there so many so many different layers act. I can't wait to see the research that comes out, but unfortunately living right now. You know we're just taking a day by day trying to figure out what's going to be asked to help less in the. I. I have to be honest. I am so terrified about are. A symptom attic people. How do we know I mean? There every morning and I was getting up. Take my temperature because that was the only way that I could manage my as I. See it. Yeah, yeah, but now it's like you're still have it and not have. Have a luxury beaver temperature so certainly. I. What to do to quill. Hung of the brain. Right honey, but You. Honestly, if you if you think what would do to protect yourself against any major thing like you if you want us you. Know, that neighbor had a wien. Rob Your often not going to be sharing with them. You're not going to be doing things that would increase your a contracting. What they? So It might be a weird scaling to suspect everyone, but everyone is potentially. A missile you know they're. Causing damage so whatever you can do for self protection. That is what you should definitely do face. in certain situations you love, don't recommend at grocery. Store recommend more sanitizer at the grocery store, and steering. Where anyone that you know, you could potentially affect you yet. Ace of matic carriers are real but just you know use that wisdom that still keep your keep your pro-life up and you know definitely keep things clean around you. And be who you're allowing in your space. So you back on a symptomatic people you know it was, it was like. How do you know if everyone's not being allowed to be tested? How did you find out that they existed? If that makes sense, yeah, oh, because there were multiple studies shelf-life of buyers host so there are multiple studies that have been conducted across a few states. A few universities They were accepting volunteers to just detest and the you know you had what our testing their whole families back with. You know that coming out. So you. They had these these very small studies going on, and that's when they found out. Wow! All these people tested positive in? They didn't have symptoms of the people that did have something that you like. Yeah, they should have been positive. They were negative, so it was very interesting. That's how we found out. Though because they were accepting volunteers in a number of states in across some universities to just see you know how many people are walking around without symptoms, but could potentially be carriers and that's about. I was wondering. How do we know these people a symptom attic, but you can't get testing I mean. It's like crazy to get. Yeah, exactly exactly Yep, and then he says he wants to. This question. Hey, Liz, I was reading hector head Christian. Life of virus in a host good question. Yes so It depends. You just never know honestly so we found that for some people. It can be as short as fourteen days fourteen day quarantine. I'm assuming you mean long and the virus be active in the body. Is that what you mean by? I think it. Okay how long the so for some people yeah, we've seen it be like fourteen days, and then they're usually fine There was one study that showed that somebody could not convert until about day. I, WANNA set. so it just depends on the body, its ability to fight off the virus me, personally I did have it, and it took me union only yes, I grow I mean emergency medicine. You'RE GONNA be exposed to all kinds of things bright. So It took me to at twenty one twenty day twenty four is when everything result. Day Twenty four so. We've been anywhere from fourteen days to two months in in some people Could you still re contracted? That's what we don't know. We don't want. You've had it Can you get it again and then make other people say after you've got it. You know that we're still trying to figure that information now, but from what we found. The virus does hang around in the body lease about fourteen dates you get. You started developing antibodies within the first week of developing symptoms, but the majority of antibodies. That you know with antibody testing you start to see that around day twenty one, so you really get a good amount antibodies to fight off the virus around Daytona. And that's even if all your symptoms are gone. So. I mean you wait so this interview on another level now that I know that. I'm assuming you probably got it because you're in a hospital. Yeah. Did you keep your babies husband say. So, that's the thing when I was exposed the patient had flu be in, so that's what has contracted. Because I had all the symptoms of flu. Be The only thing that was well. There were a few things that were different over the course of the illness, but the main thing that was different was loss of taste and smell. Flew flew I've had it all before but that was the main thing that was different, and then the unrelenting calls that came after. I had a call started feeling great about day five six in just like everybody talks about what the pattern day eight to ten is where it starts to really wreak havoc, so people look like their goods. They feel good, and then all of a sudden a crash again. That's what we've seen throughout everyone's course of illness, so I was feeling good in the about that date. AIDS that's win. The call would not go away. In shortness of breath was super severe followed by the fatigue. I've never been there fatiguing grow, you know I've had three babies I've you know? I've done residency like I've been very very fatiguing situations pledging a been through, right He. I never experienced not like this before this was all level. When people say I mean I literally woke up to three. It was. It's out of this out of this world, so those were the things that were different, so I go back to the beginning, though and I thought I have to be so. There was no quarantine. In. My babies were exposed anthony was. or my husband was exposed so I mean there was no quarantining in then I. WanNa stay around. Day, fourteen see. Not probably about dates ten after got bad again as we were both like. Israel could be coronavirus that there was at the beginning of March, but we didn't really think who's even. GOTCHA got. In Indiana, so we were like you know and then I didn't I didn't go to the swab the tests because I was like. Five so I ended up getting antibody test and that was. To okay. Yeah, he's negative. Wow. And I mean there was no social distancing there was. It was not I mean. It's only because I didn't know that's what was time that I was infected. I truly believed ahead. Just will be so then it so can you tell us for those who may not know? What? It was flew flew. Oh, I'm sorry, yes, so. It's all good influenza virus has. Many strains, it's ridiculous, so Influenza A. is one of the most common strains. Of the flue that we see the environment as well as influence a be. They knew you probably know you remember maybe eight to one in line. Was the one that was really big several years ago. So are all types of looms, but the flu that we commonly test floor like let's start having you know like symptoms. When you go to the emergency department, we test for flu. A influencing because those are the most common in there are multiple subtypes of type, a multiple subjects of be, and so we can kind of pets that and that's what we do, which has food if it tests negative, we say. You have virus, or you can have another string of move, but when we say flew be, that's just one of the most common strains of the influenza virus that we has four in the emergency department. I. My Heart, say when you said that you had it. Yaldo no her. She is the Energizer Bunny I. Just thought back to homecoming because you were. Celebrating twenty years. and. You guys were all. So, Yet energised through the Russo to hear that you were like. Down like? Man, I'm I'm so glad you get to tell the story. Yes yes I'm glad you I'm glad. He's wearing affected. Any husband wasn't enough. Of read, Agree, Girl, let me tell you how how much the power prayer words and to protection I I had actually been traveling missions I had also been a Liberian around that time. And you know my travel companions. None of them were sick, and I went. One of the members was seventy six years old Lang. Nobody they tested negative girl. Just the power prayer hitch protection is real and then. Home when you got your taste and smell bag, so that's an interesting question. Hector I'm I might not be normal. I haven't gotten it back so I have some which is very very disheartening, because part of my job as an emergency physician is to I, can sometimes diagnosed as soon as I get in a room. Gangrenous toe or diabetes to the fruity odor right now I'm unable to do that, so I'm praying every day that it comes back. but it has not returned. I can. I can take. Some is better than what it was like. An had total loss. There I mean I wouldn't have known of our. If our eating cardboard or lemming on like it was zero, you could tell SPEC- versus salty, versus like there was nothing, and so I will say I'm not as bad as that more praise, the Lord I can you know there will be since that com out of nowhere, and I'm like Oh! Today in the next day. So I I. It's also you know allergy seasons, so that could also be playing into it as to why. Who will restoration but I haven't gone back yet now on the flip side one of my sisters. She's a nurse. Practitioner Chee had total loss, but within about five or six day you. She had returned to about ninety five percent. So there are some people who had return of the their taste since no. Not Situation. I can't even imagine. What that would be like not to be a? Taste or Now. I can't I can't fathom that I don't even. I can't fathom that at all. As so you said that the shortness of breath became yary beer. How yet? So obviously or maybe I don't know you didn't have to be on a respirators, system or anything. So. How did you take care of yourself? Because I feel like I might, if I can't read I've felt like I might saw hyperventilating which will make it S. That's. So, how did you? I mean I I. Think I heard Chris Komo's say he had to raise his arms. yeah pack. So, wouldn't you do during their period? How many days short? the shortness of breath rapidly about eight two. Okay, so when it started, and it was really bad, I had some chest pain with it thought I had a blood clot like I might have I don't know. But that was about eight days then the actual like I'm trying to exert myself in half so much fatigue shorter. That was another ten days so about eighteen days all of that. So what did I. Moving now that's my take on point with anything that you know surgery. Just keep moving. It's that moment when we become sedentary that this disease takeover. So you know we put the people. Did we do something called? THEM WE slip their bodies, because when people are under the. They're laying in bed, right? When they're laying in bed back. And you know you may turn them to clean them, but basically their lungs are just resting in this position, so we knew something called prone them in Grozny them so that the loans can change position and air can hit different areas of their loan so that they don't get stagnant. In my case, I had to keep moving. Like be moving was not cops. Because the at there, the more I felt like getting sort breast, so you know. I'm a runner around miles every day I could barely get through half a mile walking without upping gasping for air, but I kept going I kept going. You dislike. You have to scrape your body to remember how to read write and to do. To get you back healthy so that that's my my greatest is of anybody you know. Gets he moving? Do not stop moving because that's the moment that everything will tape. No that's the best advice because then my low crazy. My and I was like if I K- breathe I need to sit down with yet exactly. NOPE, you keep you keep moving. Keep moving. Walk deep breath walk. Keep taking those steps. Girl could. That's that air needs to get to those areas so. so let's say you have this. This'll be the shape of what we call now. Those are the smallest areas of the respiratory tract as so blood vessels capillaries are down here at the bottom, and that's also where air exchange air comes this way. Blood comes this way in exchange right there at the bottom of that right here. But will is cut off a not doing very well. That oxygen is not going to get. There is not going to get to where needs so if you keep saying. Keep allowing it to do job, perhaps they can get to this part of the blood vessel or this part of the blood vessel, so the air, so that action could still get to that part of the blood vessels so that you can continue to function in a near normal capacity. I I'm telling you I had A. Is years ago and I think I looked that up. PTSD I was working on my dissertation. Like this respiratory issue? Like every time I move like I couldn't Brie and like I have asthma anything right? GRADS are I was. Distressed bring this on. And I mean the. Trying to because at me out at my hand I, don't even know what I would do, because then idea of having shortness of breath. Still terrifying. Yeah. And I can't even fathom even thinking about moving. Yeah. I mean I. If if nothing else, you said something like that really stuck out like that's the one I missed out to me was to. Cheat moving because Ed's. That and then I hear that I mean, and that's what I'm saying. You just keep hearing hearing all this stuff that you don't know what to. OFF But I hear that the breathing I mean I the coughing is like a coffee never had. Right. Yet is. It is deep, come from the very bottom of the respiratory tract. Oh, Hector. Don't know you've eaten areas. But yes, that cost there's nothing like that. The it comes out of nowhere. You sound like you up. Yeah, It is bad, bad bad bad. And the call last. How long? it depends for some people. It's been lasting about three weeks. Yeah others a little bit longer, but yet. It's one of those concerts like you'll just be doing something. You know just reading and all of a sudden. He liked. Where did that come from? So it's not continual. Is that continual map river about no for me, it was. Coughing like in I mean post nasal drip dry air is called like it is just a continuous cough. You just cannot get rid of the cost. So, yeah, and most of productive, so you're not of Mike a Bunch of new or anything up, just a dry cough. That feels like you're coughing up alone. I need to be more specific hector. Do you mean just during these Corona Virus Times? Do you mean if someone infected with it? What to do like I need a need a little bit more clarity with this. It could be because I did see an article and I know that this was. He could be talking about how it. is now considered. can be considered in this corona virus. Oh Okay Yeah Yeah. I saw article on that and I was like. Oh, Lord. You can't even. Get Your Life Right. Well like you said it It's in the blood vessels right in eggs on the blood vessels. Are penises. Regina czar will vascular is so. I could never stretch to say that It could be considered. An Se is still a virus that can be transmitted in multiple ways. the mucous membranes in contact with someone else's. Vagina. Peanut like it's just there's micro trauma. with blood can come in contact with their blood in it. It can be transmitted but I think that's a stretch to call it A. Sexually transmitted infection, that's that's a stretch. necessarily. Good or So. Okay, so I'm going to presume that we're. We're talking. I Guess A. Not, married doesn't. so if you are living in the same household with the person that you're copulating list, and you're taking great precautions to make sure that you yourself are not getting rich. They're taking precautions. Then you're going to be two people that are considered safe and a likely won't. Give it to each other. If you book protecting yourselves, and it is still must be saved from the actual sex standpoint, you're going to have a greater likelihood of giving the virus to them from the kissing or the being in close contact. Then from the actual. Penis Vagina you will so it their way to not you know be in each other's respiratory as and still achieve what you want to achieve you. Then that would be alive safer in terms of not giving the virus who? Now you're talking this person over here that you've only known for like a month and you don't know what their safety practices are a you. Just you know hooking up. You're going to increase the risk of everything that. That just know the risk just goes up. The more you are not practicing safe practices in general face, MAG stained six feet away from people. Using hand sanitizer, so I think it's less about the actual sex itself, but more what you're doing leading up to it in Durban. If you wouldn't. You know that that that makes perfect sense but you know it is something to think about definitely something to think about. This has. bodily contact as a whole. okay, yeah, I mean like I said there's micro trauma anytime. You have intercourse. If you're if we're talking about oral sex. Specifically you have lots of respiratory droplets in saliva, and you receiving it on the Pena's. If you have you know a sore or anything like that, you got to increase your chances of getting corona. Yes, but if you protect yourself like after you engage in oral sense, obviously the person that's giving their, you know they already have whatever they're gonNA have their mouths, but the person that's receiving would definitely needs a clean very well because the problem. Chicago six transmit the infection, but like you're gonNA touch yourself. And the you may touch something else you gonna for man y'all Yeltsin subpoenas penises all the time and they you scratch your ear or you're scratching. So. You touch yourself and they before you wash their hands. Support for you fully clean yourself all. You've scratched her nose. And now you introduced it into your respiratory tract. which is the main method of entry? So I mean even even if we're just talking peanuts, civil China the cleaning up afterwards. You just have to be very vigilant with all of your secretions, and making sure that you're washing your hands really well. Since Birth Oh, that's why. Look. So the cleaning up. We'll just sum it up with that. The cleaning up afterwards is what's going to be the most important. If you're going to touch herself, even clean yourself the need to wash your hands. It makes you touch your face because you're going to give yourself a greater chance of getting the virus that way. That's great to hear because people are. You know it's a lot of corona dating going on. Oh yeah, they look it up. Hooking up in we. STD checks. Yeah Yeah I. I can only imagine because what did he do you? Riot. Exactly. The Lisa says that she had them all. That back was greatly. Yeah, it's bad. Suggest that people go get tested. so Initially, we were always saying you know you developed like bad symptoms. You get the high fevers. You get the bad cough. Shortness of breath. Go right away to be tested. If your symptoms are mild, we, we have been committing not testing just so warranting, however, if you're in a position that you can potentially affect many people, so you know, work you still you're going back to work. you live with grandma. You live with Abo compromise people. You need to be tested That's when you should go like regardless of if your symptoms are severe not now if you're just worry. Necessarily rate reason testing to be honest with you because that. Could be someone else to actually needs to test because. At the end of the day, we do not have testing for all Americans. We just we don't have enough swabs. We don't have enough developer. We don't have enough test to test every single American. That needs to be tested, and you already know we're you know some people are on tests number four number five. from. Different for different reasons so. if you, if you just you don't have any, but you just worry. I would say spray in isolate you know. Make sure that you do you need to not giving else? Exposed to something that you're worried about, but don't for sure. No, but if you start to get symptoms, if you start to get loss of taste smell, which has been really really huge actually has been one of the main things saying if you start to get If you start to get a severe headache. If you start to get bad cough and shortness of brand, the yes, I would say. Let's go to that that urgent care. Let's go to that hospital and let's let's get tested and see you know. So, even so maybe if you have a low grade fever for like two days best night, a caused to. Only fever! Yeah. we haven't been doing only fevers, but if you are only fever and you live with grandma, get tested. Okay. You're only a fever and you have people that you really know could could really really do poorly around you if you give them something. Get. Yeah 'cause. Let me tell you blight. If if my thermometer is anywhere close to ninety eight point six. I get freaked out. I know but I'm like that's too close to would is not with his not no longer normal. So the number, we should be looking for for the low grade fever. Maybe this question. Gotcha, so we've been going down to about ninety nine eight. Some people have been going down ninety, nine six, but ninety nine hundred out the lowest of the low grade. A true is one hundred point four. That's what we consider. Your body is really trying to fight off something in its mounting response. One hundred point four is where we were. We is true fever, but we've been stretching down to about ninety nine eighty, sometimes ninety nine six. Yet because I had I have gotten like ninety eight point seven and I was like I gotta go to the hospital. My husband was like calm down. But. This is like in the beginning like marge. Phrasing yeah. Late. I really went to those levels of. Being completely like terrified because I was like it's best ninety point six. This means I got a fever like. But if you have a fever, what should you tape because I've been hearing different things? Oh. You take it only. Yes okay. You can pick it again. Yeah, they were it was. So as Matic's alone, don't do well with anti-inflammatories Light Ivy Profe- naproxen because of where it adds in the risks. So if there is any chance of asthma or any underlying disease, are as e. Oh multiple respiratory diseases eliminated fibrosis. Then you do need to avoid just a baseline Ibuprofen naproxen that kind of thing, but just the general population is in okay, it is a okay, so tylenol ibuprofen steroids. They've all been proven to be fine. Thank you because there was like I received this email said. Don't take this. Don't say. Yeah Yeah don't take any I. Don't take any of that yet. It's it's been proven, but inaugurals Mattie, you know we still say China because of the way it acts in the respiratory tract, but so what would as matic person take for daycare? tylenol okay, all right I'll. Work. Tylenol is yeah, tell us. Tell US okay. Thank you for clearing that up as well as. I was like what what do I take what do I? Do I need to go get some jitter tumorous. Well, what do I need? Numeric Awesome! Don't yeah, don't don't sleep, do or that's awesome. Yeah well, you know I I drink. LIMITED GINGER TUMOR T. Every night. But I, I've less dispel another myth that if you drink hot liquid with. Know. No. No! I just know man. No, no ma'am. Had? Because you know people off kind of step by here in the atmosphere and. Yes. because. We have an administration. Who was telling us? This was a hoax. So right. You know! I believe that this might. You're right. I guess my probably my final question would be. Now that we are opening back, states are beginning to open backup. I. Honestly, I'm terrified I. Tell Somebody. How does one out to six months burs? Wave of people went out. They were. Nice! You know you went. extroverted, you know Oh yeah so it. Was the social. Butterfly he has been struggling. So when I am at the point, where like I'm fine. Right here at home like everybody should be worth right, okay? second-wave this second wave. Speaking of. Like, that is my fear like I. And I I guess I don't even know the questions to ask. How can we? The second way we have. Not. Gained a baby this this time You know was for four months I. don't even know how long we been. What ten weeks at this point I? Think. To. Goodness. Yes so With the second way, we're all bracing ourselves, but. What we're finding. Is it you really you protect yourself? Then the way won't be as bad as way. We're GONNA have to open. Up. We're, GONNA have to start doing things because we can't. You know some of these service industries. We can't just keep them close forever. So had to be. About what we do! and. If you're wearing your face masks her where my face masks I'm using Hannitized hannitized. Son Calls this. I know! You're okay. You're using sanitizer using it. We're you know we're saying. Say staying appropriately socially descent. Like Elisa's mentioned, you know elevator's buttons that kind of thing. You know you can, you can predict for being as. Like we just I just saw that. You know with a huge crowd of people I think it was based in Chicago. I can't remember quote. You'll the state or the city. But there were about nineteen thousand new cases over the weekend with testing and he. Water. So. That just you have to be mindful about what you're doing how you're doing a close. But you get if you're if you're being safe and you're doing those safety measures. You really make sure that this way is more like. A little bump instead of a huge what we experienced back in March like we wave from zero hundred. Because nobody was doing what we're doing that, we didn't know. Oh, my gosh I should wear face masks I didn't know should be six feet away at no. Not Touch this surface and they go in touch my face so that's why we will from zero to one. Now now we're a little bit more educated or a little bit more say so. The way is gonNA. Hopefully we all do was supposed to. Be Nice little bump that won't overwhelm the. Healthcare System won't overwhelm. Our bodies. Overwhelm our communities. That's what we're praying for with the second way. That and has it been said that we flatten the car? Had A it okay state. Yeah, not. We're not seeing half as many as we were definitely in the majority of the state, but there are some places that are still peaking, which is very interesting on how you know why win! What where? There are still a few states that are still peaking, but for the most part. Yeah media flattens. And were able to you know, take care of the few. That still did come in pretty sick. The majority of people that can snaking this go round. Have that been half a sick as they were back in March and early part of me, they they had the virus, but it's just a mile off now. The fevers are low. You know it's it's better. It's it's. It's showing that people are doing with their with their. Supposed to do I think people are just going to go back to being nasty six. Yeah so, that's the fun part about this hector. Is that garlic? Of what people do you would you supposed to do? A you can imagine nasty people in the emergency department all the time. I don't get everything they get paid bucks I. Don't get there, you know. Less because I know how to protect myself, so regards those nasty people go to do if the majority of us who care about our families care about our own bodies. If we were supposed to do, we're going to still keep keep a nice steady. Nicest Stadium. The more we educate, the better will be. But. You know I think we do. We do tend to let our guard down. That's a lot of truth. In, yeah He's right, but guess what all they'll be here. We go be cited for these hundred days of summer, but that falls on gay here and we you know we still have these viruses and people don't learn real quick. They don't learn Rupe so the protect yourself. Whereabout what neighbor over there? You'RE NOT GONNA. Be Half five of your neighbor church. Right. Now. We're not going to be doing that. Able to show, how do want to eat I? Don't even want to be expressed. Cincinnati elbows. Hey, you're right. That's closer to sixty. You right absolutely. Yeah. one one other question. Are there any foods that wished to stay away from? I mean anything from from talking to nutritious anything that will make you unhealthy. So. because. It's the food that leads to the chronic illnesses that gives you more susceptibility to doing worse in the bars, so we need so lots of fried foods, high fat foods, Greasy Foods. None of that it's GonNa be helpful. Help you combat is anything that's going to keep your immune system strong, so you mentioned ginger. You mentioned to Meringue anything that's going to keep your your immune system strong. You know the super who have killed when you have. Oddly you know that kind of stuff that that helps boost the immune system in a natural way now you know. Are there studies? That show you eat this. You won't get this. No, you know because there are still people who are super healthy, still gotten it but just be mindful about what you're eating. If you know that that's going to contribute to you getting heart disease, getting diabetes, blood pressure, you go need to avoid absolute period Alicia Alicia asked about dairy products. Oh okay, yeah. No dairy products have been fine Let me tell you the situations where it's not. If you have diarrhea, you wanNA avoid dairy products were says diarrhea. If you have really bad asthma, really bad respiratory conditions, you want to avoid dairy because that worsens a just, it causes a respiratory increase. Production is not good in those two situations, but overall dairies nine a strengthens your bones gives you energy. Yeah, it's a good. Source of protein yeah overall dairies. Right. Should I just wanted to thank you for saying yes, is. Journey of survivor. Warning. We keep hearing these stories of. People I. Mean we keep hearing the death rate? So it's great to have an actual position. That you know that we can. Survive this. Earnings! And and and I think the key thing for me that you said tonight was to keep moving. He moving to cheap moving because. Me I think if I have shortness of breath that means I. need sit down. Exacerbate that. Young the idea that you know you keep moving. That is what? You're going is thank you. Thank you for sharing. because. My crazy behind would've sat down Adelaide after. His own angle helped me like my. Helped, me, kill me grouping but. Here I. Just want to give. The audience any last couple of minutes to try to get your questions in. Oh yeah, absolutely you're at your story has. Questioned in search, you'd WANNA get in. Let's say maybe the next two minutes because I know. At least it has to get to her family hungry little. Von Of. yelling exhilarating. Again this guy sister, my sister Greek, I've please. I love. And I. I think it becomes a share your wisdom it. It has been so informative, thank you. My. Pleasure my pleasure, and just to just to go back to what you said with the depth in all that we hear about like just you know it's killing us so much. It really is the African American. Community we make up about sixty percent of all the Kobe. Deaths in the US But. Overall mortality is down to about sticks percent. and the overall survival rate. is well over sixty So if in your favor at the end of the day, just no victories in your favor your your ability to come back. This disease is in your favor. So, don't don't just look at the numbers would be like we'll. Know. We got this victories in Africa. We're fighting from victory actually so. Yeah because you know they were saying that diabetes. It's like one of those. Diseases underlying diseases, but we saw that Tom Hanks survived. The. He right I think his wife was diabetic as well. Yeah. And I know I don't know. But yeah and another. It's a little different because they're celebrities, but there is. No different from anybody else. Okay. So. That is promising. To hear that. I didn't see any more questions. Come in, just a lot of omits up. Thank you. What about other? Tiffany was on us all to. Join so fiscal. This House so. Thank you and for? Watch this this replay I'M GONNA save. Lives. So sure We'll probably I, had your? Announcement of you doing this opinion and announcements so. I don't know if I could a lot but I'll. I and then. In the inner city up look! Why Ch- you know. Anything. Like. You Wanna add or anything else go. Let you know 'cause I would love to have you back talking to? My pleasure my pleasure. Tin Difficult! Global! Rob. Honey. Emergency, department girl, if everything goes right the first time then Lord have. Mercy is a beautiful beautiful thing we used to it. We operating? So it's all good. Aideed. On. Thank you, thank you. On we WANNA. Make sure that we bring. Great content to the Group of. Looking at it, I figured out how to work the live. For. In, this was so time for. The time that we were in and I love you all with the grace of God and have a one undergo night. Thank you. bye-bye!

dry cough fever respiratory tract US Chicago asthma flu Hector Lisa spotify corona Jeez Mundell Kobe Margaret Sisters Vince
Coronavirus: 100 Days, 100 Million Shots

Science Rules! with Bill Nye

32:33 min | 3 months ago

Coronavirus: 100 Days, 100 Million Shots

"This is an historic time. This is going to be a multi year fight. why is it taking so long to get a screening test. It is not a hoax. It israel something that we never experienced before. Wash hands wash hands wash. And i mean you're the scientists are gonna tell me welcome. Welcome to science roles corona virus addition. I'm your host bill nye and this is the series that brings you the latest analysis and the science of this pandemic. We want to keep you informed prepared and calm. Were still all in this together. My friends and last time. We had dr selene gowns or on the show in july of last year. Three million people in us had been infected with kobe. Nineteen with nearly a hundred and thirty thousand deaths now. Roughly twenty four million of us have been infected at numbers increasing by a quarter million people every day and almost four hundred thousand people have died with the death rate reaching his high as four thousand a day in the past few weeks now mid these grim statistics to vaccines are rolling out across the united states but slower than promised and much more slowly than most of us would like joining us to sort through. Your vaccine questions is once again dr. Selene gown dr. gallagher is an assistant professor of medicine. Infectious diseases at new york university and epidemiologist host of the podcasts. At and the podcast american diagnosis and most recently. A member of president elect joe. Biden's covid nineteen advisory board. Dr gown selene. Welcome back to science rules. Cray to be here bill. I can't believe it's been since july on. I know i know and so much has happened. You know corey. And i were asked to speculate about how long it would take to get to half a million deaths. We thought it would be three years or already at four hundred thousand. Mike goodness all right that aside. So what's going to be different after the inauguration than what's going on today well you may have already heard about biden's america rescue plans so this is a one point nine trillion so trillion with a t bill Trillion dollar plan to rescue the american economy. And the american people from the colonel virus pandemic that might sound like a lot of money. One point nine trillion dollars. But that's nowhere near what the pandemic is costing the american economy right now. It's estimated that the pandemic will cost us sixteen trillion dollars so to put that in context that is about twice as much as we have spent on all wars since nine eleven twice as much and the cost of the pandemic sixteen trillion dollars. That's almost ten times as much as this america. Rescue plan that the president is proposing now. So it's really a drop in the bucket. Compared to what the cost of the pandemic has been really important investment for the country to be making to bring it to an end or it should we all get the m are in a vaccine and avoid the astra. Zeneca one is one ima- rene vaccine better than the other is pfizer versus moderna. An opinion on it or the you'd have to you'd have to kill us. i think. Big picture the Pfizer and moderna. Marin vaccines are pretty much equivalent. I think where the real differences come into. Play is with respect to how they're stored temperature they need to be frozen or deep-frozen and what that means in terms of the logistics of distributing them and administering them at the clinic or hospital level. So the pfizer vaccine is a more fragile vaccine. So that's the one that requires deep freezing. A lot of your regular family practice. Doctors are simply not gonna have the facilities in their clinics to store that. And so i think you know where where that vaccines are administered will really dictate which vaccine is administered. And i would just advise go. Wherever's comedian wherever you're able to get vaccinated and don't worry so much about whether it's pfizer madonna Pfizer moderna that. You know they're fairly equivalent. Vaccines was talking me. I'm a certain age. But i haven't gotten a notice to get vaccinated was not clear that i will because these tears are so complicated. What are you guys gonna change. So it's become very clear over the first couple of weeks of this rollout that the cdc guidance as well intentioned as it was. It's just too complicated. They did try to balance the science so looking at who is being infected at the highest rates who is getting sick and dying at the highest rates. They tried to balance the ethics in terms of. Who's still having to go out there and work in the middle of all of this doesn't have the option to stay home and work virtually who Which populations had been hit especially hard in terms of Deaths from cova. Let's largely been as we all know now communities of color but also others and then also Thirdly implementation so how practical was it to implement. And i think that's the piece. They probably didn't weigh heavily enough in drawing up this guidance. And and that's what we've realized so. I think our goal now is to try to just accelerate vaccination as much as possible And yes we'll still be trying to prioritize healthcare workers and long term care facilities and the elderly an and others for that matter. But we're not gonna turn people away who are presenting for vaccination you know if it's if it's reasonably within the priorities that have been outlined Because the goal really is to get people vaccinated as soon as possible. So is there going to be part of your plan. Is a scheme to notify. People was going to change. Well a couple of things one. You're to see a lot. More places where people can get vaccinated so dodger. Stadium is an example of one kind of place now. We're looking at a new york yankee stadium in boston. Gillette field and the fenway So there's gonna be a number of sports stadiums venues ballparks that are going to be used but it's not just those for for mass vaccination you're also gonna see mass vaccination sites that are more embedded in communities so these could be at schools community health centers. Maybe the parking lot at a mall but focused on some of these communities that have been hit especially hard and where access might be more difficult for a couple of specific questions about the vaccine that people are wondering one dose will work for younger people. Is that true that we simply don't have an answer to because the vaccines have not been studied in that way so Part of trying to get these vaccines approved as quickly and safely as possible was that we simply could not look at many different dosing schedules We had one dosing schedule. Essentially the full dose of the pfizer vaccine the full dose of the moderna vaccine The pfizer vaccine twenty one days apart the moderna vaccine at twenty eight days apart. So the two doses. And that's what we have data on data on half dose or different spacing out of doses or one dose. It just hasn't been studied that way in a phase. Three clinical trials so hasn't been studied in that way in tens of thousands of people and so we just don't have the data say so. Why did you all white people to professionals come up with two doses to start with. I think it's with the idea that you on re-challenge with an infection with an infectious pathogen. Whether that's a bacterial infection or virus. Cetera that your immune system continues to fine tune its response so it gets more specific on the second challenge. It gets stronger more robust and it lasts longer so this is really based on what we know about other infections other vaccines and so it stands to reason that a initial dose with essentially a booster would be an effective strategy here. How much of the problem of getting people vaccinated has been mistrust or reluctance to To get any sort of vaccine let alone this one and then why are so many. Is it a myth that so many medical workers in assisted care facility. Workers are reluctant to get vaccinated. What's what's going on. Well those kind of go hand in hand right because those are the groups that are being targeted for vaccination at least in the first phase and there has been some reluctance you have to remember that The staff of long term care facilities so nursing homes and assisted living facilities. They are by and large women and women of color. they are not a very often empowered. They don't feel like they can trust their employers always and so there's already a an issue of trust in that work setting in terms of the healthcare setting. It's not so dissimilar once you look at people who are not physicians Again you have a much higher proportion of of women people of color who don't trust managements and so when management tells them you need to get vaccinated. They're gonna you know think about that and and consider whether that's really what's in their best interest if you've been infected with coburn and recovered if you've gotten one or two doses of the vaccine and you if you had any side effects they've washed away. Are you still contagious. Can you infect other people so if you have been vaccinated and you've received two doses of the vaccine by about fourteen days. After the second dose you should be immune. Now the caveat is these vaccines are about ninety five percent effective so are still about a five percent failure rate. So hold it. That's about being immune but what about being contagious. So your question is. Can you get infected and transmit onto others so we don't yet know fully the answer to that question. We hope based on what we've seen with other infections other vaccines that once you have developed immunity in particular the immunity from the vaccine that you cannot get infected and then therefore would not be able to transmit but we don't know that for sure and it is possible that you could still have a low grade infection where you don't get sick you don't even know it but that you could transmit onto others so this is something that we are studying carefully and at least for the time being even after you've been infected and gotten better or you've been vaccinated we are still recommending that for the time being you continue wearing a mask to protect yourself from those low great infections and potentially infecting others so speaking of low-grade infections looking at the charts. Flu season is not nearly as severe as it normally or wouldn't one might expect. Is that because people are wearing masks staying home doing all these things. Oh one hundred percent. It's had a huge impact on flu transmission. Which i'm very thankful for because if we had had a bad flu season on top of crony virus this year. I don't know what we would have done in the hospitals So clearly wearing masks distancing. The you know these issues of ventilation That has a huge impact on not just corona virus transmission all sorts of respiratory infections. Show along this line. You know you just mentioned ventilation being outdoors. There was all this concern. I guess they're still is all this concerned about people being indoors. In the winter people be cold outside the indoor. so you'd expect higher transmission. But i look at the big map places. Like north dakota south dakota. They're not as bad as they were. A few months ago is there. Is that just a small sample size or is there some real effect going on. Well i think what you also see is when a place gets hit. Really bad people compensate in their behavior. So they do start to take it seriously when it's not just on television when it's actually in their family in their community so i think part of what you're seeing is is sort of the pendulum swinging the other way in these other places. That's not to say that. You won't see a resurgence as people. Let down their guard again. We'll be back right after this tele dot gives you twenty four seven to doctors for nonemergency conditions like a sinus infection ashes more they're board certified doctors can diagnose treat and prescribe medication when medically necessary to be delivered to the pharmacy of your choice. Tell the doc is available at no cost through most major health plans in many employers in plans on a fee basis are also available. We've talked a lot about the pandemic this year. So you know how important is to stay home as much as you can and tell doc is a great solution if you need. Non emergency care. One tele doc. Our recently said i'm an rn. 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First of all. It's just great looking. It's reminiscent of a rowing shell. And then it's very smooth it all the bearings and everything are just really nice. I have another lesser rowing machine. That i always thought was pretty good. But the hydros just cool so learn more at hydro dot com slash bill and get one hundred dollars off with the code bill. One hundred that's h. Y. e. r. o. w. dot com slash bill and code b. I l l one zero zero another exciting news there new strains that are even more infectious. How serious is this. And what is the evidence if any that the vaccines are as effective against this new or these new strains as they were Against the first one. So this is really concerning I'm not breaking any news here when i say this because it's been reported elsewhere but on christmas eve. Our advisory board had an emergency meeting to discuss this very issue and to come up with a plan and suggestions for the president-elect as to what to do it is not surprising that we're seeing the emergence of variance. What is concerning is that we have not been doing the surveillance to detect them. We haven't been doing the testing and it's not that we don't have the technology here in the united states. We just choose not to invest in that kind of public health surveillance. The way other countries like the uk have done. And so when you say surveillance how do we know you. You're doing a dna sequencing so essentially doing. Yeah doing genetic testing on the virus to see how the genetics of the virus are changing over. Time that's what we mean when we talk about you know the virus mutating and all viruses are going to mutate at some rate over time. But if you don't track that you can't know what you know whether that is concerning or not and what's been worrisome about these new variants like the one in the uk Is that it does transmit spread from one person to another much more easily. And so even if it's not more deadly if more people get infected then more people will end up in the hospital and more people will end up dying from this. So then what do we do. Do we change the vaccine. Are we going to try to reformulate it or something. Or are we just going to carry on and and when you say there's a variant and you can detect it with genetic sequencing machines. How long does this take. Just take five minutes or a month kind of thing. I mean this is the kind of thing you can do with an a day but you need to decide you're going to collect the specimens send them to the lab do this actual testing and that has not been routinely done In terms of the the vaccine's we don't have full information on all the variance and there are a number. Now you have the u k variant. You have the brazil variant. The south africa variant. You have one form. Ohio one in california. And there's probably more that we just don't know about yet and so it needs to be done for each and every one of them is figure out okay. Is this more transmissible. will it. Cause more severe disease. Will it still respond to some of the new therapeutics drugs that we've come up with like the monoclonal. Antibodies that you lilly and regeneron have produced. And what does it mean for. The vaccine will the immune response generated by the vaccine. Still protect us against these new variants and that research just hasn't been done for all of them yet still. Here's one from corey. Not corey powell. A whole different other corey who is a frontline. Healthcare worker in the southwest. I guess the sunbelt. I just got my first dose of the pfizer. Kobe beck seen if i were to. Now get a covert antigen test. Would i now test positive for the virus. Assuming the first test was negative. So no you're because the manet vaccines are essentially turning your cells in two little factories that produce spike protein and the antigen tests that most folks are using our testing for the nuclear caps. It which is a different part of the virus. You should still have a negative antigen test result even after vaccination how cool that. We understand that everybody understands thirty years ago. This was impossible. You couldn't even ask this question. I mean it's just fantastic. All right mel powell also not apparently related to corey pell ivan ironclad packed with a local time friend. As soon as we both have gotten both our vaccinations we will drop everything in our busy schedules and meet up. Still masked for a simple basic long-missed hug is that corona virus legal or corona virus advised. Or do these two still need to wait to d clad. The ironclad packed. I think if they wait fourteen days after their second dose and they have both been vaccinated. I think that's reasonable. I think what really is a concern is for people who have been vaccinated mixing with people who have not been vaccinated. I think in that circumstance you you really do. Still have to continue to wear your masks and social distance This next one is from krista in wilmington north carolina not far from my birthplace of my mother. This is a fundamental question. Well people who have recovered from the covid nineteen need a vaccine to achieve this mythic herd. Immunity will their immunity be good enough for her immunity. You know we've never achieved herd immunity for any disease just through natural infection and it's for reasons which includes the fact that often the immunity that you get from the natural infection just is not robust enough So if you look. At for example smallpox smallpox infected humans firm alenia and yet. We didn't aratu kate. Smallpox until nineteen eighty. I believe is when it declared eradicated and that was through a massive global effort to get everybody vaccinated so I think it's really important to understand that. There is a difference in the kind of immune response to get from vaccination versus natural infection. I think the key to getting to hurt him. Unity is vaccinations. So i think we will likely eventually get there. But it is gonna require everybody stepping up to get vaccinated. I think some people are a little anxious about getting vaccinated and might want to kind of wait and see how things go for other people getting vaccinated. I and make sure that the people they know who have been vaccinated had an okay experience with it before they step up themselves. But i think eventually all of us really do need to step up if we wanna reach that goal so there's an email from martin and he s he's concerned are the trial's going too fast in other words we haven't been able to evaluate these long term effects the various effects that might affect people affect people been holding back going too fast. There are a couple of different ways. We've been able to do this quickly and yet safely. So we've had corona viruses not covid other corona viruses around for a long time and scientists have been working on vaccines for sars and mers really for about twenty years. And it's that framework that skeleton so to speak for the vaccine that was used to design the pfizer and madonna vaccines and so we already had a head start There are other couple things that we did to go faster. So instead of completing the phase one trial which is really small just looking at some very basic safety outcomes completing the phase one then going on to a face to then going on to face three those actually got done in in parallel as opposed to in sequence so we got those done much more quickly because we weren't waiting for the results of one before moving to the next step. This was the upside of getting so many infections you had so many people To incorporate in a in a big study wow Diane burs a teacher new jersey. She's nervous about side effects. Can she take advil or aspirin. After getting injected and ken she put ice on the injection site to slow the swelling. My word she can absolutely put on the injection site. There's not a lot of data looking at the use of anti inflammatories after vaccination. I've only been able to find one paper and sort of conflicting results in that. I would suggest maybe waiting six hours. Eight hours before you take that dose of tylenol or appro fin or aspirin but it especially if you're getting two doses of the vaccine. It's highly unlikely that treating yourself in. That way would have any impact on the effectiveness of the vaccine. All right okay. Here's the big question spos-. I'm a thirty five year. Old non essential worker seattle spos-. I'm a forty five year old asthmatic in idaho. Suppose i'm a sixty five year old podcast host in los angeles. When i get my vaccine so much of this is going to depend on where you live We are going to see a much stronger. I should say a partnership because the federal government has been kind of a wall over the last year in terms of working with state and local health departments. But we're gonna see now strong partnership between the federal government with state local tribal Territorial health departments and governments to scale up vaccination. And it's really it's not gonna be a top down approach of the us government saying this is how everybody needs to do things because what we've also seen as that states and and other regions need the flexibility based on their population based on their needs to adapt how they roll it out. But that's going to happen hand in hand and it will be adapted to local circumstances. So encapsulating this how many of us are going to be vaccinated by. Let's say june of this year well. The president-elect has made it very clear that his goal is to get one hundred million shots into arms in the first one hundred days. He has an office. This is a very high priority for him. Perhaps his number one priority entering office. And it's because we now currently have about four thousand americans dying per day across the country that is more than died on nine eleven every day and that is completely unacceptable to him and he views this as an all of government. Response all hands on deck situation where he wants to get shots arms as soon as possible so the four hundred million of us get vaccinated in the first hundred days. I three months plus a little bit. How long before the next two hundred million or get vaccinated will frankly speed up. And that's for a couple of different reasons one based on our conversations with the manufacturers of the vaccines unless there's some major manufacturing snafu. We anticipate that the number of doses released will actually go up month to month so your supply will increase over time and were very focused on expanding where you can get vaccinated. So that's going to be a combination of these mass vaccination sites But also working with local pharmacies where you might pick up your prescriptions as well as local primary care doctors and federally qualified health centers in the community so once you expand the places. The people distributing the vaccine once supply opens up. It'll be a lot easier to get people vaccinated more quickly. So you think we're gonna production's going to ramp up. Awareness is going to ramp up and distribution centers are going to ramp up and be made available to many many many of us. And you think that'll happen before the summer. And i'm hopeful i'm hopeful and i think come come june or so we'll be in a very different place than we are today. Everybody we've gotta stay safe. For the next few months so that we can all get vaccinated and achieve this mythic thing called her immunity in the way that dr sanders explaining by getting shots in the arms. Thank you so much selene. Thank you for taking the time. You must be just busier than ever these days with your job. How often do you go into. The hospital was last in november. After joining the advisory board did have to take a bit of a break from working in the hospital. It was just too many jobs that i was juggling at that point. But i will be back in the hospital before too long Sometime in the spring here and you feel safe in the hospital because everybody Suits upright and the supply situation has gotten a little bit better in terms of masks. And so on. And you know. I've gotten my two doses of of pfizer vaccine many of us have gotten vaccinated now so that certainly takes a load off in terms of our worries so much susan thank you. My guest today has been dr salim counter. She assistant professor of medicine and infectious diseases at new york university. She's not meteorologist. And a member of the new president elect joe biden's cope nineteen advisory board her podcasts or epidemic and american diagnosis. I'm bill nye my friends. This is a pandemic. We are all in this together and now more than ever science rules sciences. How we're gonna get through this. If you like science rules please take a moment to rate review. An apple podcast on stitcher helps us out helps other people learn about the show helps us know what you want to hear about. So thank you science rules. Growing virus edition is produced by harry. Huggins and korea's pow our editors tracey samuelson engineers lose fleming. Who also mixed this episode josephine martorana our executive producer special. Thanks to casey hawford and remember at stitcher science rules three more things. Everybody wear a mask get tested and get your vaccine of any style as soon as you can stitcher.

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Episode 15: Going Back To School During COVID-19

Flipboard EDU Podcast

31:48 min | 8 months ago

Episode 15: Going Back To School During COVID-19

"The views, thoughts and opinions expressed during this or any broadcasts belong solely to our guests for our hosts. Speech broadcasts do not represent reflect views of their employer's sponsors or affiliated organizations. Welcome to the flip bore Edu podcast with your host William Geoffrey where we collaborate, communicate and educate with the greatest educators in the world on clipboard. Let's start the show. Welcome back for the family. This is your favorite coast Jeffrey the incomparable Stacey Boodry at hall of Famer. Dr Michael Meals. The couldn't be on this episode tonight shot out to those two as they prepare for back to school. Schools across the country are opening as superintendents school board decide on best practices keeping students safe Kobe free? Some say they're reopening of schools should have been universally led by the secretary of Education. Without regard for political affiliation, we ponder how much regulation and oversight is needed a returning to school nationally. Should. We have a unified effort implant from the secretary of education or should the season's about opening? Be Left Up to local school boards? So without further ado, let's collaborate, communicate and educate out the best. In the world right here on board EDU podcast. Welcome back flip boyfriend. This is your favorite coast coast Jeffrey and I'm here with two amazing guests I. Am so excited to talk to these two amazing educators. I. I would like to introduce to you all Dr Nita. I. I'm doctor. Nida. As we all know on medium teaching and more and I am currently teaching portrayed teacher and I just wrapped up my doctoral program. So it's been one amazing right through my ten year in education excellent duct to say come back home. And then speaking of home I got a very good friend of mine while I like to call Dr Beginning to existence. GERMY sanders. A good. Be Here I. I've heard but hey, God, is good to see. You know you just gotTa get some. Because I need twenty to go. Well to get this role. Zach, Thornton. Jeremy. sounded. This is actually my six year as administrator. Who came believe this my seventeenth year in education. but family did work with our in a city kid and the EASTSIDE AK to beat back back back they can't. So. We'll get to that in just a second With them big old, Raines. I'm not even really going to say net the right now you know cocoa some great players but I never got the ring. You know what I'm saying Dr Sei we used to work together. You will one of my favorite new. People that we brought in remember that and remember when I was a brand new educational technologist but I was working with you will I learned so much I thought I new technology when I walked in but little that I know there's so much to. Learn, but thank you so much for coaching me. Well for take all that created. Go to say that you know there are certain people who you mean your career who you know are going to be successful. You can just tell that they are bright people in our member. I'm a we had an opening and we were looking for somebody, and then they hired you and I was like manny hired this young little girl and it's like man, you don't need no young girls we need somebody some sense and A. Whole. You're you're always a doctor amazing person and I always enjoy working which you. So thank you for coming on the show. ME. And my may man Germany. Sand is man man we go back who actually you know my little brother better than you know me black. Exactly exactly who you rooting for Germany. That's all I need to know, right? Yes yes. Yes. We have to represent the historically black institutions where we both graduated from. So I'm very proud to work with you. Your reputation precedes you there are a lot of professionals like a Dr Meals Dead Dr David Blake on there just a from your reputation when you were in being is the met you when we worked together in lamarcus validated is the you had just one assistant principal of the year twice and Abrasives port is deemed when you came over to. Lamar. About one the. Year. Before. But I want A. Year in a Frat for the ISP is yes and you know it was was amazing I was thinking about this earlier today when I was praying for the show and I was thinking to myself Man I'm lucky to have such smart intelligent friends walk and say, Hey, let's get on his podcast and let's talk about going to school and you guys just are available to do it so. a man I. really appreciate it I. DO WANNA start off with a question. My man Dr meals dead could not make it tonight but I want to share some his questions and the first question is this. There are schools across the country that are opening with superintendents and school boards deciding on what is best practices for keeping students safe and Kobe free at school districts and the system. Some, say that we opened the schools should have been universally led by the secretary of Education Do. You feel that everyone having one plan to return to school should have been best or allow states to select their own standards for opening schools. Aloe. Well, let's talk about. We're teaching and they talk about you know teaching our kids. We don't. We don't pay the same lesson. Everyone around kid differentiate. So the same thing come with school every school every kid is not the same. Every community is not the same everybody had the resources everyone walking a different story that you can't say that one plan. Everybody and so saying that only you know that I have this opening schools and everybody's gotTa follow it. That thing like I'm gonNA take this lesson. How many shame kids? No matter what they come though I think it that that community. District districts look for Derek Kid for. Because they know their. Way Back into like a teacher no student yeah. I've been walking classroom and you would, what do you need to do with your kid but? Teacher you know your kids. They supernanny. Are They district leader? You Know Beth for your community you can't say you know plan. Every community in the nation you can't speak for everybody you can suggest option, but you should let district holder coming holder take the part that they've been given this role. Don't trust that they have their back interest community. Dr Sanders it. What do you think about that? I'm thought out it worth back Dang. With feel Brookville up there. Bright by of their great by Dow. Sick. Because, he's been trained in all twitter. Outfit down this the Dow is because. My. Doctor I you can't one-size-fits-all. You can't sit up hearing say well, need open off with media. Not In hot spot, you have to differentiation with we got some people going back, bay or blow. We've got some people they're me for us it hair county were pig county. Right now we're three also. Never for being. There they thought it off what we were baking. Luchetti after that why? Rancho, they're GONNA do remote. It's so I I think you have do or. been official. Count. I think you have to what is on. The district. We'll get all of those things because yes, we can say where? You can fight it but the data pro. Everybody will pick your. Because my wife is recovering well, she tested native about a week and a half ago it can hit her for your it was. A, boy. Negative negative twice. To make so they can my. Doctors. Are Correct. In gave her. Her having issues of the things that they. Get all in foul what? Affects people. Oh, you can't off your and have the same plant various things too. So the various means just like. We The needs of the child. We were using curriculum. You. So is are we supposed to be about a secretary of education issue leader? ACRI. Leader in. Education. Dave with The arrival but he saying aspects. Down that. I, I? But I said earlier. Yes, you can't be a leader. Really know the community. Deserving. People that do know the community and serving our district leaders. Tie. Dye you know everybody would be. WOULD BE FALSE ANSWER BECAUSE Those that are close. Coffee related or closely have worked with the community know what does Four community based on the resource and yeah, you can say what you think is that they on? Where you stay in. But you allow some sort of control who people who are you know under you who you can delegate your answer Yes and just a question that I was thinking duck seat as he was talking. You think that the department education should be cut or should be broken up from McKay twelve and then have a collegiate level Do you think that the Department of Education should be done? This is historically opinion. What do you think about? With. That but I've never thought about it that way. But I don't think that that wouldn't be a bad idea to have it up you know. Far Elementary Becca. In and? That's not a bad idea. ACT would benefit. Would that give us? And is it does that mean greater representation for us as? Or does that mean greater representation for students because going back to school is GonNa look different as you guys have already pointed out going back to school there were about one hundred and seventy thousand students in Houston area that went back to school, and that number is overwhelming and parents expressed concerns about senator school their kids back to school during this era of Covid nineteen from what expert in medicine tell us about cove nineteen is at its impact on children should pairs be worry about their key is contracting sprayed into corona vars I think you have to look at variation. Pair doctor health. But those things said, even we all two into consideration but I know a lot of her. Because you know some of our children, they are taken care of by their elders, Brand Perrin, things of that nature, and so that was one things that were trying. To, mitigate the spree. I. Look at myself but I I WANNA make sure that I particularly. With the like. Now, when I go to work I'll make sure I have my phone I to fake he'll day were different. Math is like I'm GonNa have still back project. I won't be a big thing but I think you have to look at everything from? Medical. Hill or your parents the what 'cause you know He. Kinda out sick you know and catch the virus. It actually may not though recover quickly and it a little bit harder and so those are some concern and fell I think you. You have to take an precaution. But also I do understand and I'm not trying to play Devil's that. But I do understand the fact that. You know for the emotional learning. We have to look at it. So that's why like a lot I don't understand what they're trying to rush back though we're trying to get back to normal. Because you have kids, you know we have to think about those. That also don't have it so good at home. And when I say that you know Caribbean abusive relationship have a family member. Cardinal with a family member that they're witnessing being abused neglected are where their caretakers are. They don't have that. You know some of our kids you know in those socio Eko. They only get meals from school. Though it curbs that stop. A lot of our kids were going to star so. I think both sides. and. Not, a one size fits all. Probably don't need to work remotely because of the condition however but I have to go to work and I have to wonder why it's my First Grade Child, and a half the school because I don't really have the choice. There's a wide. Every corner. That's willing do. Vision Virtual Learning So, you have parents that I put it to buy. You have understand it. You know I, I definitely do bed I'm kinda split on both sides but who are parents are concerned because of? That that it. For remember curriculum and everything, and that's what we stressed. But at the end of the day it bake. What do you think about the impact should parents be worried about their key is spreading on contract and diverse? The whole All brand new we've never dealt with this before so we can. I can understand. Why parents are nervous, they have questioned. There's a lot of, is this the unknown of how? This is going to be the new normal but. Where everyone else's only thing here. I can see why a lot of fair. Want schools opened up and wonder can back based on resources and how there might not be a lot of support at home for their child or you know dirt kid who are going through social emotional issues that always school chant provide countering mentor. They probably don't have the. And I mean me personally I come from a community where language names language is not very strong. So parents don't speak English they don't know how to use technology support your talk I saw Barron to my class that I have to sometimes speaking different language through different video recording, teach the lesson so I can see why parents. Are. Nervous. Of having them at home and learn at home because of resources but then you also have to see you know going back, Stacey it probably already we WANNA make sure we're we're going in the right way we're not rushing into something. We can get back to having normal life and. The honest. When we do go back fulltime, not going to be normal It's GonNa. It's GONNA take some time to adjust. And there's GonNa be a lot of things in place mature kid you know parents community everybody has the right state of mind. Because kids going to be different, kids have not been in that regular setting march. And For somebody. WHO's not? Used to that kind of environment, I'll make an attack them. So I think because all known we all have to give time to cool to find a plan. To. Prepare help our parents and kids out. I want to give a quick shout out to Steven. Galloway with this. Negatives drop students haven't been in school for one hundred, seventy, three days up until in our school district one, hundred and seventy days is almost an entire school year they have been out of school for almost an entire school year and so two for Enoch and understand enormously as well and getting back to normalcy but as a father myself. I'm I'm a little afraid of sending my kids back to an environment where they kid catch it I. I personally Ken sympathizing like Jeremy said, can see both sides. just something else that I wanna point out is that some school districts are giving their parents that option for virtual instruction and Lua face to face learning in your opinion Dr Saeed. What are some of the advantages of virtual instruction? Well first of all I feel like. Virtual instruction has taught kids I Guess Future Academic Pool. Honestly, you don't get the virtual things. Told, you get the college so it aired kids. On with feature ready to. Had taught kids digital learning I know I did my whole dissertation on online learning and what's interesting? I don't know I don't. This is this is kind of weird or anything but did or started I had a pandemic Pete, my dissertation. Second on how? What the piece during My kid back in January. Be Interesting. This, if we actually top way, how'd y'all go about doing that and then come March. where, in the you know home whole pandemic but I think this has opened up is to a lot of parents a lot of kids in there could be possibility the way of warning. there are some disadvantages. You know if I should share some that about no social Kenner lacking social scale. I know. Health, is also been pirate priority especially for teacher and pretend fast which screen time. So there are a bit a bit of a complication there are pros. Her to a learning because you're trying to make sure everybody is safe. Learning Bud wholesomeness advantages of you're not connected anymore. Yes. Thank you. Jeremy you want to share some light on that as well. what are some advantages and disadvantages virtual learning. Well I'm bad. You know you do have left fun issue. there. however. You know. There are the things that you struggle with like for me. One thing if I was going to that they interview tomorrow be like, what's your? What's what? What's your Straw? What's your strength building relationship? Bit Difficult for me. I don't know how to build a relationship. But I'm trying I'm trying to learn. So I'm trying to Barfield. Literature and things of that nature but it's something that got. Got An unknown for teachers? Have you know like okay. We're trying to teach spurts like They about Walker Right I've never done a bird offer. The I've never heard either. So it's where you have to look it about giving the bright. with your staff, but also you know you do. Those teeth that are introverts. This is good for business something they feel they feel. Element elevate. They're comfortable where you don't always get that child at bay introvert or. Want to speak in the quiet they'll do the work they'll turn it in, but they don't want crass. We'll guess what? Now there. Quiet. Now they're willing to go with the Chad and so you have some advantages to, but I think. Now you really have new teachers work overdrive to make sure they get a a a comfortable idea of seal which. I'm trying to grab our grand. Built. So you you know I'm without you have both sides and they're awesome. Positives. Does make teachers better teachers being able to. Go between will we like to call synchronous and asynchronous learning? I think you can replace technology you. You. Need to be present, but you still need to have that. Connection you can't just. Think Youtube video nervy like I'm done for today There's there's a lot involved and I know from from educators and. It takes a lot of energy out of you to be remotely present and I think one of the disadvantages. Virtual teaching as an educator would be the internet connecting. You mean you're constantly being dropped off and kindred where did you go where she go and but other than that it opened up many mind because I'm being a technology specialist. Now, deal with a lot of digital immigrant teachers. And a lot of teachers who just would not want to touch the computer but I think that the kind of open them up to this world. That, if we were to go back, you know face to face. Foot calls for model would exist I mean Khan Academy on he. He created Khan Academy years ago Contra model. Okay. I can put my videos out there and then take the time in the classroom to judge focus on collaborative and Margaret Think. Virtually teaching that open the is too many educators that okay. Maybe I shouldn't be lecturing desires. I credit video put out there, and then Klopp we can use the cracks somewhere. We can have collaborative team you know collaboration Google cloud call from collaboration, which take time. During the cloth to criticize winter activities. I think this is opened up many educators to. Feed the education different perspective. You can do all my teacher by posting things in advance. And having. taught before the kids get their think. Many What I heard many. that. Had topped them instruction can't be posted. Yup. Yeah. I like to call it being your own teaching assistant. That's one of the good things that I'd like to Buffalo Board when I was using it in my classroom was that I can send out topics of flip boards or or have classroom discussions in my board So I think you're absolutely correct and it we have to start focusing on collaborative environments specifically because that collaboration is is the future student talk we know that they're tested on application level and anyone pretty to Carini way you know so we're going to have to just move to the application level especially within our instruction. That is our time for the show ladies and gentlemen. Dr Saieed and Dr Future Dr Germ Sandwich like out. Hey It just flowed out legs look around and it's thirty minutes. Awhile. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, man. Thank you thank you. So you're going to have to come back on the show before before you go Is there anything that you're doing that you can let our guest not that you're a part of. I am A. Teacher I teach grade. And I am trying to bring technology includes the until the world based on my dissertation. My goal I guess it's Kinda build community diversity I come from a tax any background on I'm looking American by tried to help other educators. Can Try and teach them about diversity and how to include honestly includes. The community into their classroom. I know I'm I to like my answer on my twitter to kind of promote that of how to. teach kid. Diversity and how to create an inclusive classroom about majority of time. That's what I'm trying to teach other educators would. Find you on twitter and instagram. On my twitter handle is at teaching and more and my instagram handle the same thing at teaching more. So you'll see other things that are not related pitching I I enjoy cooking and decorating planning and attending wedding. They will not all about. How do we stalk your with? Good what is your? Name getting married. How could you look at? Those wet is amazing and. just let our listeners know You have to follow teaching anymore because she is an amazing person. I know I've seen her up close and I know that he's an amazing teacher she taught. A relative of mine and I just appreciate she's good spirit and I forget how amazing she is. When she starts speaking this brings back like this is an amazing person destined for greatness and Germany Germany. Where can we find you add on twitter and argue do anything amazing right now. right now I'm just I'm just saying thank where once Things. Be Bad if I can make impact. Burke one. Hey I. It that's my go You know you get twitter at J. Sander Lean. You know I got fifty folks but years dollar five at got. Up there because they matter You know I guess I'm all about diversity I'm all about that. Make. Sure Wing. You know one thing about it. We I heard a lot of. People. That they don't we call it. And I tell them all the time but you choose and I'm all about trying to promote diversity awareness. Then people know you know no no, you were and also spread. A lot of five eighty that I get I care and also with leadership. Leadership because there's a difference between leadership dictatorship and I feel people. Leader's GONNA show dictators on tale it I. Think the thing. I believe I try to help. One thing about it I believe in growth in if I can help breath to where they want though that's how i. Lick you should promote and probably help people to reach their dreams and that's all I'm about. So we need did work being talked about being I WanNA talk back to. I Know God God been I. Know. I'll get there for right now. Though at Jay Sanders Lean on twitter and hey, you know all about no network in trying to snake parts. Because you never know about doubt I might warm up supervisor only far gas. Until, you are I do. I need this tell true. How many times have I? Say Go hire me remember that. I I don't think that well. Hey look when you get to where you go in there and remember you boy because I'm going to turn an application. Your high will. Thank you now pre say okay. I want. Thank you guys for being on the show and. This concludes our episode. It's time for flip tips. Today's flip tip is brought to us by Janet Spire. So. Today's lesson hottest share your flip magazine or social. Media. Worn out and flip board and navigated magazine of your choice. Select the three dots on the top right side of the magazine. So that share the magazine from the top and dragging navigation down click on your magazine to select share scroll past the social media icons select one to share for your magazine. Type. Your Post information there select tweet to share it. Check. Your magazine Post on twitter or facebook -gratulations you shared your I Flip Board magazine. Flip more EDU podcast is a great resource for teachers, students and administrators. Bull Fam- was up that was a great episode I WanNa. Give a shoutout to Mahal girl Doctor Nita Sii, and the future Dr Jeremy Sanders on the thank you for listening plus we did that right before the hurricane that missed us in the Gulf down here. In South Texas also WANNA give a shout out to all of you listening around the world shut out to that one listened in Burma. I see you. Next episode will be about. Education. See You. NEXT EPISODE LASER JETS

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Opioid Edition 9: Monitoring and Considerations for Tapering

Mayo Clinic Talks

31:48 min | 1 year ago

Opioid Edition 9: Monitoring and Considerations for Tapering

"I hello and welcome to Mayo. Clinic talks the OPIOID edition. I'm Tracy mccray and this is the first of two bonus episodes on the OPIOID crisis. This podcast is brought to you by the OPIOID conference. Held each year as part of Mayo. Clinic's Continuing Medical Education. For more information on all opioid episodes available for credit visit. C Dot Mayo Dot Edu Slash opioid plea see today. We are showcasing. Dr Helena's Elka. An anesthesiologist boarded in pain and palliative medicine. At Mayo Clinic in Rochester. She'll be sharing. Best Practices opioid monitoring and considerations for tapering. So we're going to talk about opioid monitoring and then outline monitoring program that's feasible for daily practice. But mostly we're going to talk about critical factors related to initiate an opioid taper. So I think the most important thing and of course this has been drilled into us all by now is safety first by now fairly been beat with the CDC guidelines for prescribing opioids and. I hope that you've had a chance to look at them. I always say that the most important part is on page. I think it's page sixteen where they have one box that outlines the twelve tenets of this guideline in. It's a very readable. And so it's worth being familiar with. We'd like to use in our clinic. This careful model for opioid monitoring simple easy to follow. And it's kind of reminds you to do some of the key things we talk about. Controlled SUBSTANCE AGREEMENTS ASSESSING THE RISK of addiction monitoring functional assessment urine drug screening and Longitudinal. Follow up of course so the most important things I wanted to tell you about the controlled substance agreement really. It's just two things it's what are your patients. Responsibilities toward their opioid program. And what are your responsibilities? Most importantly I think is your responsibility to obtain consent for the patient. Before they take opioids just as I wouldn't do interventional procedure on a patient without discussing with them. The risks inherent to that procedure. These medications are risky. Medications and patients need to be fully informed before they engage in that therapy lots of examples of as as we talked about addiction risk. So there's lots of ways to assess addiction risk other than just asking the questions yourself with the first on. This are really used a lot for research. And they're excellent tools. Opioid RISK TOOLS. Very simple five question screening tool. But really. What's important is that you follow up on it and you look at it and you use it for something so. I really think that a lot of the screening tools that we recommend our best when you actually take time to review them and when you actually discuss the results with the patient and then put some of that in your narrative in your notes and documented as well prescription monitoring databases while I have learned more than I want to know about prescription monitoring databases in last year and a half. I've been working on behalf of Mayo on our opioid stewardship. But you know by now. That forty nine states have prescription drug monitoring programs the MINNESOTA PROGRAM. We have access to. I think it's twenty one or twenty three states. Now you have to be enrolled now. This is the law as of this summer. To TO PRESCRIBE OPIOIDS MINNESOTA. You need to be enrolled. You don't have to check it. Nobody's checking up on this and if you have complaints to the State Medical Board this is one of the first things they ask you and then you want to document when you search that database you know. I think there are some really inherent flaws with these databases. I'd always assumed that when I gave a patient prescription for opioids and they went into a pharmacy and they filled that prescription. That immediately was logged into some big computer somewhere. And if I looked in the next fifteen minutes or the next two days there it would be their weeks leg on a lot of these databases and all the state's control their databases differently. So the State of Wisconsin they monitor. They manage their own data and they put it into their own database in Minnesota and forty one other states is a private company called a press that controls the data and feeds it into these monitoring programs and they actually house the data and so they are working. They're interested in state sharing data. Because that's that's good for their company as well as good for us and sharing information but I think the answer would be a national database where we had more rapid access and where others more sharing than just what's arranged by a company so you want to document every time. The database is searched as I said so functional assessment. This is really important. A narrative description is important so the peg is short. Little three question screening tool. And that's great and it's wonderful to document that and put it in. Put it in the charts but really you want to know. That patients are improving. Because they're in opioids. They need to be doing more after you put them on them then they were doing before you put them on them and we'll talk about that again in a few minutes but don't forget side effects. This is a really important part of informed consent talking to patients about what might happen when they take these medications drowsiness and how it might affect their job. Should they be going back to work? You have to discuss that with them. Should they be driving their car? Home Constipation in one of our mentors when I was going through fellowship love to say the hand that writes the opioids should also right for the laxatives. And that's very true. So I always write down my combination of Senecas and mirror lax and titrate to affect on a piece of paper for them Hypo Edison now. This is a topic that I don't know. If enough people talk to their patients about before they put them on opioids but it certainly is an issue for patients who are chronically on. Opiates in men in particular he should be checking testosterone levels. If patients are chronically on opioids and I have to say that I have used to this little talk on more than one occasion to discourage young men for chronic opioid use. And tell them you know. They're concerned if you go on these you know with your Libido sexual function muscle mass etc etc and. Those are real issues for men. I mean you can give them some tips. Johstone if there are patients who really needs to be maintaining opioids but the the issues for women are a little more difficult to treat and a little more complex and may need the assistance of an endocrinologist. So Longitudinal follow up. I think this is a key to the OPIOID. Ah Program you need to see the patient so and some clinics. You know even at Mayo when we were looking at this. We're seeing the patients once a year and sending refills in between and I think not. Assessing patients functional status. And how they're doing in the course of a year is really really too long and so the CDC guidelines say. There should be some kind of follow up every three months. Ideally a provider. That's great but I also think we've bandied about all kinds of ideas for the nurses to have follow visits in the clinic with a scripted. Cheat to go through to talk to the patients but they should be face to face. If at all possible we've also talked about involving our pharmacists. And that and in our clinic we have a small opioid population and our clinic. Believe it or not for a very large pain clinic. All of the patients are on the same schedule so they come back for the refills. At the same time we have opioid clinic and it's staffed certain times every month. Now that's not possible and very large clinics in our primary care clinic at Mayo. There are thousands of patients. On opioids when broach the topic with them? They said you have to be kidding. There's no way to put all these patients on the same schedule. And how would we possibly get to those patient visits? So that can work nicely. If you don't have a big panel of patients on opioids but follow up is really the framework upon which you're going to base all the rest of your program if they don't follow up they don't get a prescription and that's a very important so talking about the risk. It's alternates wants more. We're GONNA hit on this. What else could we be doing? If we weren't going to prescribe opioids and is this approach really working so it's worth revisiting and you should talk or at least consider. Is this the right time to taper or just continue opioids for this patient every time you see them? We have decided that our mail providers should renew controlled substance agreements once a year. There's no home data in the literature about this. There's no law about this. But the primary care providers who've been part of working with me on this opioid said you know we need a reminder at least once a year that we need to go again over the risks benefits and alternatives and that we need to consider. This patient's been opioids for a year another year. Is this what I want to continue for this patient? Is this reasonable to continue? And so really I think at least every year or about every year is probably a good interval to be considering in discussing these again with patients because patients don't remember all the risks. You told them a year later. The most important part of an opioid monitoring program is seeing the patient and follow up is going to tell you a lot more about what's going on with him. Probably than your drug screening. The one comment I wanted to make about your drug testing's. We see patients every three months in the clinic. Theres no random urine drug testing? The patients know they're coming back for a three month. Follow up and they know that they're going to have a urine performed while they're there and so well. Urine drug screen is important and it really is necessary. I think to document into heaven in your in your records because it really is a requirement of appropriate follow up there are limitations to it of course so monitoring program this really if you can put patients on a schedule and assess every three months. Their function addiction do a urine drug screen. Get their renewals teed up then the R. N. or your nursing staff or whoever is helping you with your with your opioids can review the medical record with you in between if you are interested in learning more about this topic. Dr Helena's Zilkha is one of the course. Directors for the annual Mayo Clinic OPIOID conference. Mayo Clinic offers hundreds of Continuing Medical Education Conferences. Worldwide Visit C. E. DOT DOT EDU and registered today for the Mayo Clinic opioid conference. We're going to switch gears now and talk about when you do. WanNa get patients off of opioids as I said? I think this is something you should consider every time you see the patient this is this therapy like every other therapy is a therapy. That can fail so I have a lot of patients who all sent home with some gap. And they'll come back in four weeks or they'll call the nurse in two weeks and they'll dear. I'm not taking that anymore. Well what's the what's the problem? Well I felt tired on that I feel like I can't think I feel well. What does yawn? And maybe we need to back the dose up a little. Maybe nope I'm done with that. Not always the case with opioids. And then you want to discuss and document the reasons that you're going to continue them if you're gonNA continue them. There needs to be a good reason for it and discussed the lack of other successful therapies. And why you chose this therapy. So why we want to tape our parent patients off. It won't be as well as I said. Failure of therapy I always this with the residents and fellows and they're kind of like That's an interesting way to look at it but really this therapy can fail just like everything else any other therapy if I do an. Si joint injection three times in a row and the patients never had a benefit from an SI joint injection. What the heck am I doing the SI joint injection for if they are home on their opioids but they're not going to work. They're not moving around their house. They're not functioning any better than they were previously than. Why why opioids have adverse effects? Obviously that might be a reason to discontinue constipation is a big one for patients. Or just feeling you know. Drugged up. Non Medically indicated reasons for opioids. So sometimes these are patients you inherit that they were at another provider that came to you. How in the world did you get on this in the first place for low back pain while I ruptured a disk three years ago? And my doctor got me on the got me started on these so after surgery or an injury or short-term use whether it's a legitimate reason or not you need to consider that how long have they been honest anyway the publication from the CDC Earlier this year they looked at the cases of one point three million patients through the insurance databases and they showed that patients the length of time. That patients are on opioids after they take them acutely so ten days being the point where the scales really tip and patients around them for ten days or more have a very significantly increased. Risk of being on opioids chronically. Also it matters how much you give them. So how many refills do they get in the meantime while it's three months later after you broke your wrist and well when I look back you've had six refills not on a contract because this was going to be an acute treatment for something so remember to keep that in line and then obviously concern for a behavior which we're GonNa talk about but patients feel? They have a right to other pain control than they do. We want to do the best for our patients. We WanNA use multi modal therapy. But I've told more than one patient in the hospital when they had a respiratory rate of seven and I had to shake him to get him awake and they had a pain of thirteen out of ten that I have yet to see someone die of pain but I've certainly seen patients die of opioid overdose respiratory depression and so we have to first air on the side of caution so a barren drug related behaviors. Well my word. These are very obvious and the left side of the screen. You know. They're licitly using drugs and you know it from their toxicology screen. They're borrowing another drug and the you know it they keep losing their prescriptions or getting prescriptions. From somewhere else sometimes patients will come in and say. Oh Yeah I got it from so and so they thought it should try some of this really or they're forging prescriptions well. That's pretty obvious. Well there's a lot of patients that are a lot more savvy than that in their behavior feels wrong to you in some way but what you just not sure. Sometimes patients who are using their drugs for another medical symptom that wasn't prescribed for my increased it. Because I hurt my back this week and so I needed to take more aggressively requesting so talking to your office. Staff is really informative. Patients not behave when they see you in the clinic. Has Your the handwriting the prescription? But sometimes they're not very pleasant to the office staff and that should be a real red flag when they request specific drugs. They have in their allergy list. Everything except you know oxycodone or whatever acquiring drugs from other providers obviously unauthorized dose escalation. Now sometimes that happens that patients. Oh I took an extra one and I felt so much better. Okay well we need to talk about that. A bit of patients continuously do that. That's a real red flag and unacceptable. Because I the obviously are most important concern is keeping our patients safe and so we need to be cautious the purchase of OPIOID overdose deaths. You've seen these before. They're changing a little bit. How are so? It's middle? Aged males are the highest risk people who have a history of substance use disorder other or other psychiatric co morbidity such a huge risk factor and then we also know that it matters. How much opioid. They're on so if they're prescribed more than one hundred or a morphine equivalence or equivalent dose daily. That's significant risk but prescription drug overdoses really increasing in the female populations death rates from one thousand nine hundred ninety. Two Thousand and ten have really climbed with opioids in women and so that's a significant concern. So there are really three ways to taper. It's not rocket science. You can tell them. You're not getting another script. You can rapidly decrease someone that's about ten percent per day or you can slowly decrease someone about ten to twenty percent per week so a rule of thumb that I often tell the residents on and working with them is that there's not a lot of great evidence in the literature about this but in my experience and in some of the articles that I've read you know others have found too that you can drop by thirty to fifty percent initially without patients going through withdrawal. So if you really need to get somebody off fast you can typically do it. And they won't experience withdrawal symptoms typically but first of all. I think most important is to educate the patient to have a frank discussion. And these can be very unpleasant Wire tapering them. And then what they can expect what our withdrawal signs and symptoms. What are we GONNA do about those? If anything if you're not giving them more scripts you know or you're not wanting to prescribe quantity and there's something else for withdrawal symptoms. Then warning them about them and telling them that they are not life threatening. Their situation is good reassurance written and verbal instructions so it's not uncommon when you want to taper someone whose behavior hasn't been bad that. Oh we didn't understand and so they call back to ask the nurses. Can I have another prescription because Oh no? I didn't drop the dosage supposed to drop the dose but if you have it well written out a calendar as perfect how many pills you're supposed to take that day then it's easier for them not to air and it is hard to remember so it's important to have things written also Mayo. We have an electronic medical record that the patients can access and so I try to spell very simply at the end of my note in terms that anyone could understand what the tape rain plan with dates in it and then you want to consider medical morbidity do these need treatment to or do you need to taper more cautiously and patients with certain medical commodities and that may be true patients may need to have their anxiety treated before or their depression. Treated before you're going to be successful tapering them and you may need assistance with that. So I usually choose to use the same opioid if possible. The patients already familiar with that opioid. I think it feels odd. To switch opioids to taper with if I can taper with the same opioid I will. But you may need a different formulations so I often choose to to taper. I usually get rid of the long acting formulation first and we can talk a little bit about that and then I taper the short acting agents next but I have colleagues who do it the opposite way where they keep the patient on the long acting to try to keep things smoother than they are. Get rid of the short acting and coming out on the long acting. The problem is by the time you get to the end of that. You're almost surely going to need to switch them too short acting to be able to get rid of that long acting agents so it's hard to take a patient from twelve. Mike Fenton patched nothing. It's hard to take a patient from a ten milligram oxycontin twice a day to win today to nothing. It's easier if you can use a short acting pills that you can divide even down to two point. Five milligrams are smaller. The last stage is almost always the most difficult. You may have to adjust. And so this is why. You're seeing the patient regularly and follow up because you want them to feel supported during this time even if their behavior has been poor. You're concerned or the or the opium aren't working for them Seeing them regularly and follow up because you may need to slow down near taper. It may be difficult to tolerate. This is forty six year. Old Guy is a crush injury three years ago. He wants to increase his pain medication. Every time you see 'em his urine was positive for math and Benzoate as well as for his Methadone hydromorphone. What are you going to do with this guy immediately? You're going to say no. You can't have any more scripts from me because you're on methamphetamine. And you document while you're doing it with your urine drug screening results your discussion with the patient. I have had patients in this situation where I've had to do this and every time. It has been unpleasant now. Obviously you're right. I mean you do not want to be the hand that writes their opioid overdose that causes respiratory depression and their death. Everyone would back you on this Even reasonable patients. Who had back you on this? But it's really unpleasant to have the conversation in the office when the patient sort of you know you. GotTa do it Doc. You know I need it and you know things like that or or whatever but documenting is really important. I had a patient too was sent to me. By one of our oncology fellows and he said I don't to this guy he told me he uses heroin but he has terrible pain from squamous cell cancer. Can you see him and helped me? Just decide how to prescribe opioids. So he was giving him regular prescriptions for both long short acting oxycodone and he came in and I had a frank discussion with him. He said yeah he takes usually takes. His oxycontin often trades oxycodones with his girlfriend. Who's on Who has hydromorphone prescription for low back pain and so I got a drug test and sure enough. They were heroin metabolites in his urine. Which you almost never see. It's hard to catch patients with that. And so I had the patient comeback to have a discussion with me and I called. The oncology fell in the meantime and I said we can't prescribe to this patient. This patient is treating his own pain. Essentially he's treating his own addiction and we can't continue to prescribe for him and I'll be happy to have that discussion for you. It's never pleasant but sometimes it has to happen Mr be. He's a thirty three year old. He has low back pain. He's been on since he ruptures just a few years ago. One of the members in your practice tired so you inherited Mr. Be The office staff notes. He started calling asking for extra medications or refills. You really is often very rude to the staff. He's threatening in demanding. He's been self escalating doses running out early. What's happening to these? Oh you know. They got stolen out of my car. I think somebody stole him when my buddy stole them is urine drug screens. Okay only positive for the oxycodone that he's to be taking he's an Oxycontin and oxycodone for breakthrough has a total of one hundred twenty milligrams of oxycodones day. What are you going to do with this guy why I would say? This is a guy that justifies being weaned off of opioids number one unless there's better documentation. This gentleman doesn't necessarily fit my criteria for being on opioid therapy at the age of thirty three with low. Back pain number two. He's on a pretty high dose. And that's over my comfort zone for thirty-three-year-old with low back pain and his behavior in escalating this dose. He's clearly violated his contract with me so I would recommend weaning the patient well beginning to explore other options. I pain control so I'm not going to dismiss the patient from my practice. I'M NOT GONNA have him get another provider now. He may try to get another provider. Because he'd prefer to Stanton's opioids. Interestingly at Mayo in our primary care clinic we don't allow this. So the patient is paneled with provider they are paneled with and that providers responsible for opioids or no. Opiates we do have a way for the providers to review their patients with us. We have a monthly meeting where we review difficult cases and we put a note from our team in the patient's chart stating that. This is what the team decided that. The patient is going to be tapered. This we're going to do it or that. The patient is going to continue on. Opiates in this is how we're going to do it. Because that provider retains that patient and the patient doesn't have the option of getting a new provider. But back to Mr be here so I think you could just continue as oxycontin immediately. That's going to drop forty milligrams per day or a third of the dose. That he's on. He's on twenty twice a day and then I'd win the oxycodones off rather rapidly. Because I'VE DECIDED MR B has enough red flags that I don't want to prescribe opioids long-term anymore and so this is a suggested win to win him off over ten days. I count out the number of pills. I'd give him exactly. The number of pills used to get tell them those are the only pills he will receive and give him the written instructions on a calendar possible. How he's going to win. So next is Mrs p this lovely forty four year old lady has been in your clinic with Fibromyalgia for many years and other colleague put her on opioids but she's been started under lock. Sixteen really thinks that's doing well. She started on an exercise program. She's motivated to discontinue here opioids. And you guys have planned that. You've been trialing medications trying to get help. And she's very worried that she is addicted and she's going to go through withdrawal important point for Mrs P is that a physiologic dependence not the same as being addicted so a lot of patients will if I have withdrawal symptoms that must mean. I'm an addict because only an addict would have that happen to them. That happened to anyone. If we didn't win their opioids appropriately so her current therapy is one hundred microgram per hour. Fennel Patch. She changes it every three days. And she takes her hydromorphone. It's pretty much scheduled takes pretty religiously so I would do a slow taper for Mississippi and I didn't write it all out but this is how we do it. I dropped Fenton Hill by twenty five micrograms about every fourth cycle. Maybe she'll manage for you to do it faster than that. So every she's changing her fennel patch every three days so by the fourth cycle. You'll win it down again and it will take around twenty seven days to win it out if I win it off if I could wave that right then move onto hydromorphone. So you've gotten rid of the long acting you're gonNA leave her hydromorphone and start just dropping slowly by two milligrams a week and then that will take about forty two days to off. And then you're going to see her and see how she's doing or have her call in because she's a patient who maybe can you can do some phone Work with and you may have to slow the screen at the end. Sometimes the very smallest amount of opioid at the very difficult so in summary Oakland monitoring. It's less painful. If you plan you hear that from Dr Sanders. Yesterday I completely agree that it's just take so much pressure off of you and off of the patient. If every single patient is treated the same way you have a check sheet or your your nurse has check sheet and when you go in and you get the patient of prescription they get their controlled substance agreement. They have the same management. Plan that every other patient in your practice would within reason Those patients who you're going to see more often because they can't go for three months because you're not sure about them yet so you may not extend to those. Three months visits right away. It may be every month but with some adjustments but really for the urine drug testing and agreements controlled substance agreements. And how the rules work. If you treat every patient the same it really takes a lot of pressure off in it makes those agonizing moments when you've got to go in and say something's wrong here it makes them a lot easier consistently document and then have consistent expectations for the patient in for you of the patient for the patient for you and then the slide of the side effects of the Serb. These are risky medications. We're talking about and they have significant side effects. I mean when I put someone on Ama- trip to lean I think twice about it or three times maybe or I've tried four other drugs I because I don't really like the side effects of Amat Aline and a lot of my patients hate the side effects of Emma trip to lean but it can be a useful medication so it doesn't mean I'm not gonNA use amateur limit. I'm and make sure they know the things that could happen. And I think that's very important here as well. So remember that tapering. You need to consider at every visit and discuss with the patient clear expectations of what you're looking for for the therapy and to continue it these valuable medications to a lot of patients and obviously very useful. So thank you very much for your time. Like Dr Gazelle mentioned. Our practice at Mayo has really been not to dismiss patients entirely from the practice. If they're in violation of agreements. When should we actually dismiss people say we will not care for them or is the both ethical medical legal responsibility to say actually will continue to care for you but I can't prescribe pain medications for you any longer? Dr Zelic Dot. We have dismissed more than one patient from our pain. Practice at Mayo for poor behavior. So patients are in the lobby and they're threatening if patients are threatening providers if they do not manage themselves in a way that is appropriate. We have dismissed patients But we've gone through the appropriate process to do that but certainly there are patients that you can't care for because their behaviors obstructions to their to their care. What are our obligations when we're in this era of team based care having requests to refill medications for our being our partners patients and then a corollary to that question if we are leaving a practice? What's our responsibility for those chronic pain patients? With whom we may have some sort of agreement. I think that depends on your practice. I think that's if you're almost any primary care. Practice has patients who are on opioids and many other practices as well. I think you need to have an established plan within your practice for who covers when providers are are out of office. I think that if the refill according to the treatment plan that established the provider and seems reasonable. That certainly you know we're we're obligated to. That's why we're in group practices most of the time we're obligated to take care of those patients but if there are red flags you know some of the cases that may signal. But that's not the right prescription to refill. When you leave a practice. I think you are obligated to make certain that your colleagues have assumed care for those patients that there is a transition plan for them We certainly seen practices where one provider has been a high opioid prescriber leaves and then the remaining partners are not aware that this was going on and they end up with all these patients on their lap. And that's pretty unpleasant. So but I think that's the essence of group practice. We had a couple of questions from some over hospitals colleagues in the audience about the Inter Hospital Management of acute on chronic pain and one one person specifically noted. They looked up their patient the PD MTC. They're both you know. Interval prescriptions for opioids both short and long term. But there's a new issue is it appropriate to prescribe a short term? Course of pain medication or should they not do that? So there's in the patients in the hospital for an acute reason there's new pain but maybe there's a barren behavior. They need to get the patient out of the hospital. Do you have any advice about how to handle that? There may be grounds for doing. Divided prescriptions for some patients. Who are you don't feel are trustworthy with ten days or two weeks of opioid we do this. On our palliative medicine clinic all the time for patients who have really significant medical issues or cancer. Bear some behaviors that have not been the best or they have a history of abuse and we concerns. And so we'll give. We'll give the pharmacy. They can have three days. I can have one functional patch and then so much short acting and you can do the same thing when someone leaves the hospital. It's complicated and it takes a lot of time in it's GonNa take some coordination with their home provider but sometimes It's a Airing on the path of safety. How do you manage patients who you are leading through a taper and then threaten or claim that they're going to either get medications off the street or buy it from Canada or get it from their brother? How do we best document that? And and handle that what we certainly think. It's important to document that. I don't think that because a patient threatens you that you are in any way obligated to provide them what they want. In fact I would say that. That would be reason. I've I've had patients say they're going to commit suicide if they don't have. I'M GONNA kill myself if somebody won't give me these pain medications. I think documentation of that is important. I think appropriate referral to psychiatry or to the emergency room is appropriate if the patient is compliant but I do not think that threats from patients are reason to provide them with medications. I would document it and continue on your taper as you were typically. I mean unless there's some extenuating circumstance. Why they need to be continued on medication. Could you provide some quick pearls or tips or resources that Outline how best to safely weaned benzes? I don't have a resource on the top of my head. I have seen articles written about this. Partly it depends how long they've been on them and much. They're on of course. I mean it. The typical thought with Ben does is go slow and reduce them a little little by little because These obviously are medications. That are actually dangerous to win But I would say that it's going to take weeks but you know I. I've seen patients who are everywhere from one twice a day on their La- Raza Pam to ten milligrams a day and Laura's payment. I think they're very different. Patients need very different. Means we've been talking about opioid monitoring and considerations for tapering with Dexter Helena's Elka an anesthesiologist boarded in pain and tell you to medicine at Mayo Clinic in Rochester. Remember if you enjoyed mayoclinic clinic talks please subscribe and share with a friend. Healthcare professionals looking to claim. Cme credit for Mayo Clinic talks the OPIOID edition go to C. E. Dot Mayo Dot. Edu Slash opioid he see.

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Ep. - 230 - COURTNEY SKIPPON FROM BELOW DECK

Reality Life with Kate Casey

41:10 min | 1 year ago

Ep. - 230 - COURTNEY SKIPPON FROM BELOW DECK

"Hey welcome back to another episode of reality with. Casey hope that you've had a fantastic week. Really excited about this episode. Because it got a chance to talk to courtney skip on from this season of below deck on Bravo. It has not been a fantastic season in terms of the misogynistic crew. That they had working and I wasn't totally thrilled with the way Andy. Cohen didn't really take them to task at the reunion. This year so eager to talk to her and to not only learn about where she's from and how she got cast for the show but what she really thought about this season of the show. I love her. You're gonNA love her to. I asked professional ice hockey player. Michael Grabner from the Arizona. Coyotes to review love is blind on Net flicks. Which I am telling you is the show that you need to. Dvr This week we opted dvr. Because it's on Netflix. So it is crazy show which follows a dozen men and women who will eventually find love but through the process. They're never gonNA see their partners. Well they eventually will but in the beginning of the show. They want to see if there's a chance that you could fallen in someone and have this emotional connection before you meet each other in person. So it's a very interesting take on romance. And it's from the same producers of married at first sight. It's obviously a very different take on it but I feel like I'm convincing everyone to watch it and I'm telling you you will get hooked and as you will hear Michael. Who's a pretty busy guy playing professional hockey? He got justice hooked and by the way I love it that he watched it alone. His wife wasn't even watching it with them. These hockey players they watch a Lotta TV in these hotel rooms. And I said well. I'm going to be your best friend because I will tell you what to watch so all those lonesome nights. When you're away from your wives and your kids nine can watch something stay. Entertain and then. I have really enjoyed watching the show on Netflix called diagnosis. The series follows Dr Lisa Sanders as she attempts to help patients with really unique illnesses and searches for diagnosis and cure using the wisdom of crowds methods. So crowd sourcing information from other people and you will see as you begin to watch the show that there are so many people that suffer every day with ailments and the doctors that might live within their town. Don't seem to have the answers. What I like about the show is people who have been tirelessly trying to find. An answer sometimes get hopes you know an answers from people on the other side of the globe. So I've a friend and she has been suffering for six years now. She has a list of symptoms. She can't figure out what the answers to. She went to a doctor Dr Alfred and he said that she has mast cell activation disorder. But she's not convinced that that's the answer. She does want me to tell you that she had breast implants taken out in November. Two thousand eighteen. We all know we've heard so many stories about people including Yolanda Hadid from real housewives of Beverly Hills who have suffered because of breast implants so she is going to talk about what she's been experiencing and I'm hoping that someone is listening to this episode. Maybe you live in another part of the world where this is your specialty or you have a family member or perhaps you have experienced some of these symptoms and you might be able to provide her with some insight. So Courtney skip on from below deck. Michael grabner reviews Netflix. Love is blind and Donya Dobkin reviews diagnosis on that flex. So here we go. Courtney skipped bond was on this season of below deck. She's the true gem of this season. We saw her join the crew and made a big splash. Of course the biggest splash in the reunion. When she took to task. Brian Courtney welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. That was a satele. Everybody where you originally from okay. I'm from Vancouver. I grew up in western hoover and I went to school here And then I went to business school in the south of France a few years ago. So that was sort of my intro into yachting. 'cause it's a really big one of my best friends Anne Climate what is in France. She do so she had me on it or seconds to And how hard is it to become a stew? I suppose it depends on the person. It's mostly commonsense. You just have to be over into the needs and be willing to work very hard song okay. How much did you know about the show before you join? Had you ever seen any episodes Yeah I'd seen the show before. I'm not a huge. Tv watcher more of a book reader. but I definitely seen below floor and I knew that I liked kate and we had a pretty similar sets of humor. I didn't WanNa know too much. 'cause I wanted to feel like I got to know everyone fairly now. There's lots of questions about Simone. Did you feel like she was fully prepared to be a stew? I think the MON biggest problem was just a lack of confidence and a lack of taking initiatives With the job I think went. She put his second But I think she wasn't. She was nervous and she wanted to know that she was doing everything. Exactly right instead of just sort of winging it because I was willing to. I mean like I googled how to open a wine bottle properly. I Google Taibbi. Make certain ranks that Americans like because the drinks that Americans like Canadians like and I just want and and and then you really are just winging it. We don't know what's happening and we don't have time to make it perfect. You just have to be doing your out so I think that was just your problem. A lack of confidence under initiatives. Who did you get along with the best in the worst? I pretty much got along with everyone. Kanai got along the best. And then who did you get along with the lease like? Who is the person that you just thought like our our personalities? Just don't match Yeah sh tenor in Ashton. Both I sort of dismissed. I didn't feel like just the way that the conversation we're going We're on the same level of what I'm used to I just felt like going back to high school and they also came in. I think most of the debt crew came in expecting everyone to be best friends. I think I choose my friend quite carefully. What is it about Ashton? Is he difficult to get along with? it just seems like he's very combative. What's the story with him? That is a tricky one. I did like I actually worked with Ashton for months after filming so and this is before the show came out and there are certainly qualities that I doubt at the time that I didn't like and then I found during filming that I didn't like what he does have redeeming qualities too I but then when the show came out and the way that he handled it instead of the things that were going on behind the scenes I found that part overlook did he act the same as he did on camera as off camera or did you feel like he was amping his personality up for the cameras to say. I did it. I feel like he was a bit disingenuous And I find that hard to to deal with but I I think that may just be the way that he talks in general and is that for cameras or is that just how we interact with people. I don't know but I don't necessarily find that than UN either way so one of the things that someone had suggested was that the culturally. Brian and Ashton are from South Africa. Do you think that plays into some of their behaviors? This this season that they have a hard time understanding or have had time understanding because culture late. That's what they were raised with That's a good question. This is for me because my experience with South African Minnesota Different. I I mean I really only know to quite well one of my one of my best friends beyond say than what is my ex-boyfriend and they're both probably the the most shining examples of what I would aspire for in a friend and a partner and just as a man so I I I think projected better qualities onto South Africans than what I received from action and Brian so I was surprised and I think it took me a while to catch on to what I was seeing But I mean they're adults like you can grow up in whatever way that you want and you have to make the choice to learn and to listen and to continually try and do better with what has been pounded into your brains. Okay so walk me through your relationship with Brian. How did the romance sort of start with Brian? We see on television that there was a tax altercation. Obviously his very poor communication skills he does not share your set of values. Yeah when did you see things kind of go south? It was pretty early on to be fair. I mean there were so many times. They don't show me expressing like a lot of frustration with him and the way that he handled things like and it was so of so. I'm used to the way that he was so poorly handling communication with me that I I really would just like no. That's a no but I try to be really empathetic and understanding. And it's also hard when you have someone that project going back onto you and saying that you're the one that's doing something wrong so I try to listen to that and and and think like what have I. What my participation in this and how can I be better and that I think I should have done wasn't did you feel like you're being Goslett? I don't even know if that was intentional. I can just so unwilling to listen to what I'm saying. Just put down the boxing gloves and start. Defending himself without even listening is just as long as it's not what he wants to hear. It's an attack and I never. I would never do that. I think that's compensation that's how you have. You speak to partners and friends and I don't know I I've never dealt with anything like that for definitely felt manipulative. I don't know if that was the intention. But that's what it ended up being and that's what you have to listen to and someone tells you this is not working in. This makes me unhappy in the way that you're treating is no pay. You have to look into that. Were you all collectively. The women that is frustrated all season long. And is there a part of the show that we didn't see Because when we watched the reunion I was confused why there was so much support for the men because from what I saw as a viewer. It seem like over and over and over again. You were all treated poorly. I think so to be fair and certainly times. We weren't but I think there's also a lot that'd be overlooked and we swept under the rug a little bit and I think we should have been more frustrated than were at the time and then to watch it back. I mean it's so different. It's rare that you I mean really. Never you got the opportunity to watch yourself in an argument with someone else in and watch how it happens and make conclusions based on actually watching rather than just your memory of it so. I think that makes a big difference as well after you left charter. Did you keep in touch with any of them and specifically Brian and was there ever a point where they watched the show back and thought Perhaps something they set. The way they behaved was was not acceptable and reached out to you to say say that much. No I mean. I kept in touch obviously with Kate. I still talk to every day Simone I try to a little bit episodes. I had talked to having a little bit And Brian I did talk to on. Probably the first month or so After filming but not really. I mean to be honest. We barely folk as soon as we less Thailand But no he never reached out to apologize only to continue placing blame on me so things that I said during that he didn't like or in social media that he didn't like and that's all it. Is there anything that you wish you would have seen? That was not included. Oh goodness I don't know I feel I feel like the deckhand hijacked season a little bit with their behavior and it's unfortunate because there are so many like funny moments that happened and Hoppy moments that happened and it's a shame that that sort of got pushed him aside for the sake of the whole conversation. I mean I'm I'm happy that it went out but for me to watch back. It just wasn't fun at all And I feel like I didn't get to say as much as I would have liked to. I feel like those parts weren't shown and it shows me being a little wishy washy with my relationship with Brian and I think people were really surprised because he moving up at the reunion so much because they haven't really seen that from me On the show but it certainly was there. Just maybe wasn't shown. Also you were pretty busy so you working so hard. I mean I remember Hanna from below deck. Mad telling me you lose so much weight because you just never stops moving so yeah. I'm sure you didn't really have the time to sit down. And have this like Oprah Winfrey. Sit Down Talk where you worked out your feelings to just probably wasn't even God Klay. I didn't even know what my own name was honestly. It's so exhausting. Yeah Okay then. You Watch or participate in Reunion. You've actually you've obviously seen how people reacted to the reunion. People are pretty fired up. Especially the part where Andy asked if you the women had thought about their behavior or or in some sort of Germany seven. What changed were you frustrated in the reunion? Do you feel like you got your point across. Do you think that you're misunderstood? Are we all going crazy at home wanting to throw something in the television? No I completely agree with you and especially watching it back on really felt worse to me that it did at the time and the direction that it went really. I didn't like how I felt it. The women were really pressed for question. I felt frustrated that Kate was so pressed about some of the things that she did wrong. That we're so insignificant. Compared to what a man on board had exhibited and they he he didn't really ask them to repent for that in any way or or. I wish I wish that that someone had asked them what they learned. I wish they had listened to us and said. Okay you listened. You heard experience. What did you take away from that? About how us during that experience Because they don't think they absorb any of it and that's unfortunate no. I don't think they were taken to task at all. And what do you feel about people that say that Captain League kind gives kate a break all the time look he? He's not opt to push back at all. I mean I just. I just don't totally see that. I think that Kate proofs yourself over and over again so she. She was warranted a bit of understanding and calculating. And I think that's what it is better than preferential treatment. I think he just understand and he understands that if she locked in a certain way. It's because of probably something else that has been done when that's not the way that she needs. No put into perspective for people like how the lack of sleep that you're getting how quickly eating on the fly just how exhausted you are. I cannot even like didn't tell you like I went to Australia for vacation After filming and I was like walking down the street and I was like oh I don't feel like myself. You know like whole shit like who would just onto for like you. Were just on autopilot. I can I mean you get eight and a half hours of rest. That's including the type of shower to do your hair to making your on TV. I was meeting running up and down the stairs. I kind of always eating in the Galley leftovers. And he doesn't there's a conversation gallium chewing gum and just trying to get infested. What is your family? Thought about the show I mean. They are appalled me. Sleep the the men's behavior And both of my parents are really proud of him but house him off and so. I'm really happy about that. I mean maybe meet away but you were not treated well and I don't think it's right and I'm glad you stood up and spoke your piece. Is there anything that you want people to know? Obviously you're getting a of direct messages telling you much of what I said. Is there anything that you want people to know? It's crazy to me that I got so many messages and and so much support just because I was pretty myself and I wasn't afraid because because about things that I felt like we're fundamentally wrong or right and In fact that that's so surprising to people is kind of what's what's crazy. So we do see more of that more people to be when they something wrong and not afraid to be themselves so it's not surprising anymore. It's all just a tiny piece of of what's really happening in the world and that's why I've been talking about it so much because I beat everywhere and I think there's so many times when there's behavior like that that I've overlooked or apologized for And then to get it sort of be bombarded with it and flat in the face in such like a magnified way after being on the show and made me realize how. Many tiny little like micro aggressions. I've been overlooking And it's open my eyes to that in a big way. Do you WANNA come back to the show. Do you want to do other? Tv opportunities what would be like a dream scenario for you. I mean I haven't fully thought that for yet I I. I thought maybe it would be fun to do. Another season of below deck and it would have been fun to do it with Kate because he got along so well. I'm and hopefully have when that didn't leave such a negative case my mouth But now there's over and I feel like I am proud of the math and keep won't be going back. I think that's probably not the route that I want to take. I think maybe I need to a little higher in the future and I'm not sure not to say that below deck is lower but I think something else where can people follow Utah. Just call kind of follow your journey. See All your pictures. Only topping photo. They can follow me on Instagram and twitter at U. S. K. I feel great courtney. You did a great job. Keep Your Chin Up. Thank you held high. Michael Grabner is an Austrian professional ice hockey player for the Arizona coyotes of the NHL. And I found out that he was watching a show called. Love is blind on Netflix. This show is a series that follows a dozen men and women who will eventually find love however throughout the process. They will never see their partners. So for ten days in a speed dating format the men and the women will each different pods where they can talk to someone of the opposite sex and then after ten days the men are able to propose to the women that they wanna get married to. After the proposal they will reveal themselves to their partner where they will see each other for the first time and they will move to the real world where they will move in together and meet their partners families and if their relationship survives in the real world then they will get married. Michael Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me first question out of the gate married single married married so when you first heard this concept did you think this was little Chris Yeah just kind of grown that flakes and sort of show in clicked on it and then. I had to watch it. 'cause I don't think this is working but we'll find out I guess so. How many episodes into this did you get? Is You just do one episode or did you go balls out and go off five episodes? I watched all five of them I I just cannot with botching and playing on my phone but then I started to be a little bit more attention to it so but it's not the end of this season yet. I guess you gotTa wait. Released new shows every week or something so I can't wait to see the next one. Do you think this is a feasible way of finding a life partner? Is it possible to not see someone to find out who they are? Cassivi of an emotional connection and then see if you WANNA have sex with him Yeah that's the concept. I wanted to see if it works. I personally don't think it works but Maybe for some people it will but For me personally. I don't think it's just walk into someone's trying to figure out what the what they're like and then building a connection but then you see him realize you have maybe no attraction to them so for whatever reason it's So I personally don't think it will work open. Hopefully that's where some of them. What did you think of putting them in these? What looks like a like a beat up hotel with these PAS which are basically like therapy rooms with some weird colored glass and they're able to drink copious amounts of coffee or wine but they're basically talking to a wall. Do you think that that would drive? You Crazy me personally would but Yeah I didn't know where we're holidays. Dates are gonNA play all it so funny to see that they were just all lined up and you just go in there and talk to them whenever you want to saw was so cool to see how they set it up but I guess that I. This kind of stuff is not for me. I usually don't watch those shows either. 'cause they get kinda awkward and cringe off the time Kim washed. Aw but now that I started I to see this through itself which coupled do you think is ridiculous and will never work out? And which companies do you think you know what they might have a shot at it? I definitely have a favorite for that will. Work is mark and Jessica That she is literally not attracted to him at all and the funny thing is to me keep fighting for it but he can't be that line that doesn't notice it doesn't see that you just keeps going. It's almost like they've been married for eight years and trying to save a marriage so that's fun is to find in this whole show him trying hard to make it work and she is like just kind of letting hang on but not really giving them anything for the other ones that make it I would say maybe the Amen and John Or whoever is named Nina A thing looks like they're having a good time and yeah that that would be probably number one couple. Maybe makes it so. Yeah like I said. I can't wait to see how the next few episodes go on place out now are you. Are you watching this by yourself or did you? Why did your wife watches? Well no I was just home alone and they like. I said it was just looking for show Kinda wanted. You don't have to pay attention to and they came across. That's US started watching Ed. Then I really have anyone to discuss it with for going over with it. So it's it's fun at least here are there any shows Reality shows that you watch with your wife We started the bachelor this year. Again but I can watch episodes and like I can't make it through the whole season. This is like I'm not a big real like in the like. I don't know if you consider a naked and afraid a real of course. Of course it is. Yeah like I like those kind. I like that show like that's more interesting to me and You learn some stuff but like all whatever I don't even know but it's other ones. There are like bachelor and stuff like that. It's you should not my cup of tea. What if you recruited to be in a pro sports episode of Survivor? Would you do it? Survivor Yeah maybe like awesome my career or something like that would be. Maybe fun later said that the show is a better than those dating or falling in love kind of thing so me at least to watch. I find this better. Will you go back to the team recommend to your other teammates? Love is blind on that flex or will you keep this to yourself. I posted it. So that's how you really look at it but I don't know if anyone will watch it like I guess that it's I just gotTa finish in August when it starts up math. Finish it ninety and absolutely. Will you recommend the show to any of your teammates who are still single to perhaps participate? No well if there was some guys might have plowed there but Like I said it's I wouldn't go on. It could be some guys different. They'd be. They would have a fun doing this kind of thing. I love it okay. Well how can people follow you I'M ON INSTAGRAM. And grabner forty On twitter at grabs forty and I used to a lot more in the past but Kinda Lazy lately. Do you have any kids yet? Yeah I've through kids Eight year old son and for your daughter. Let's rope them into watching the show for the episode for the show. Maybe like a American Ninja Warrior. Or something yeah thank love that show American Injure Warrior. Both of them. Do you like watching that. They got a couple of shirts and stuff so That's that's fun to watch. I feel like at your house. You guys all drink like Ed yolks and then do pushups before school pretty close. Yeah I I work. A lot of kids Sometimes jump in there and do their push ups and stuff and daughters extra pretty good at them only being forced. That's pretty impressive. Do you make them run around the block carrying logs. I know you wish to do their own thing old enough to have friends in the neighborhood which they WANNA hang out with most of the time so the parents are Kinda boring. I love it. Well I thank you for your service to the show. Congratulations on an incredible career. Thanks for having my first broadcast awesome. Great Okay well thanks. Michael Diagnosis is a Netflix documentary series. I am fascinated by it. The series follows Dr Lisa Sanders as she attempts to help patients with unique illnesses and searches for a diagnosis and cure. You've seen the wisdom of the crowd method. The show is based on her column for The New York Times magazine. She's been tasked with crowd sourcing diagnosis for rare and mysterious diseases. The first episode that you can go watch now. A net flicks follows for example twenty-three-year-old Angel Parker on a daily basis angel experiences excruciating pain starting from her legs and shooting all the way up to her jaw she had a number of unresolved hospital visits and doctors trying to sue her. And it's taking a toll not only inner self and our partner but her family. Her parents are running out of money. Her father worries he'll never become a grandfather and angel has been athletic most of her life and is a loyal partner. That helplessly cares for her while she is in uncontrollable pain so in the course of the episode Dr Sanders Encourages Interested Parties to respond the story. The whole purpose of this exercise is to crowd source ideas and diagnosed possible diseases so eventually miraculously and Italian medical student offers. The most prosperous offer an invites angel to their practice in Italy. They carry out a metabolic analysis and rule out one hundred diseases and then two months later. They call angel and her boyfriend and confirmed the diagnosis she has cpt to deficiency so the cure is just a diet adjustment so to increase your sugars but lower her fat. But what is the most telling? Moment is how her boyfriend broke down on camera knowing that the woman he's been taking care of so long who suffered nine years of pain finally has an answer. I've asked my friend Don adopting to review this episode Donya. Welcome to the show. I think having me what did you think of? The show was such an interesting process. Try to have outside people hop in on Instagram facebook. Or whichever and give their ideas. 'cause there's people all over the world that may have seen you know something that you have or have never heard of I have my own issues and have had much luck here so it's actually very interesting that they diagnosed her you know across the world but they found a treatment for her which is amazing so amazing. So you've been facing you're on health crisis and I'm thinking that in the spirit of diagnosis that. Perhaps we can help you. Attract the interest of the diagnosis team or connect with someone. Who's listening right now? Who MAY HAVE WORKED IN? The medical field has seen symptoms like this or they may be facing similar symptoms themselves or have a loved one so some of your symptoms you've mentioned include abdominal pain and swelling shortness of breath severe hand swelling worst in the middle of the night mornings. If you use them to do normal life activities they turn red and swell up some feet swelling when you stand too long fluid filled pockets in some of your hand joints feet elbows knees fluid retention fifteen pounds currently terrible pain in your jaw on both sides that gets worse throughout the day. You say that food is your trigger. You've been gluten free vegetarian Vegan for many months at a time and you were even on baby. Formula for months also medications. You're not sure if it's also a cause of some symptoms Asaf achile spasms no energy. You don't have much interest in eating. You're in constant pain. What else are some of the predominant symptoms? It was triggered Somehow like an autoimmune disorder. Were just comes out of the blue. Because I was super healthy I work as a surgical nurse You know I have four. Kids was able to do everything and now I am not able to do anything at all. So it's kind of progressive that went on so starting from six years ago. It just started with the bloating and pain but it was only like one time a month so as years have gone on and stress have gone on. It's gotten dramatically worse and I would say the next eight. The past eight months has been like. I'm not functional at all And a lot of it you know some of it is you know lack of eating But when you eat you're in so much pain it kind of it's hard to keep continuing to eat so They did put me on some. Iv Food though it just bypasses your Gi track. And I had reactions to that too so it seems like everything. I reacted to And I went So I've been biopsy Endorse copies many many many times And on the last round about eight months ago they found a high amount of mass Disorder in my small bell in my Gi tract. So that Kinda changed what what's going on so luckily enough We flew to New York and the main guy who knows everything about my cell. Disease is Dr Afrin And we spent three hours with him at the end of it. He had no doubt that. That was my diagnosis so unfortunately with mass cell disease there's no clear there's no clear cut that Like medication regimen. It's trial and error so as you can see I've been through. Many many doctors The mass so uh medications are not helping the good way to put it And then hands falling. I'm not sure it's related to the Massol They handlings crazy at nine at and I wonder if it's induced by hormones. You know she changed her up at night to the mornings. But I can't even like Ben my fingers or anything So that's kind of a total mystery on its own is how it's progressing with the fluid and the joints and you know the history mean problems so it's a whole big mess and so if there's one thing you want people to know about your struggle right now what would it be I think the biggest issue is the chronic pain. So it's a chronic thing now I have a porta-cath in That's how bad it got So I would say that no food. 'cause it's triggers and. I'm afraid to eat. Obviously they have to eat somewhere. There's GonNa be talking But I I suffer from it. It's the oddest thing Like six years ago like I said a super healthy and then I just crashed in Burns. Not exactly sure what happened. I no type of autoimmune disorder but have so many puzzle pieces. Don't come together and there's no one that can figure it out And we've been up at. Usc Been Cedars. We've been at Uc San Diego What ELSE NEW YORK? We went to Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale but it was very early on and I didn't have all these symptoms that I currently have. So it's definitely getting worse and worse and worse and worse So I'm not sure what's going to happen you know? I need someone to be able to piece. Who has seen this in can piece together the pieces to understand what is going on with my body. I can't imagine keep living like this for the rest of my life. It's horrible pain. You know tired all that stuff and also rain fog and you mentioned that you swell up in the Sun as well So that's only. That was the first sign of it all. I swear I'm not that big of a person as well. Eight nine months pregnant looking And he used to go once a month and now it's a daily thing So if I don't e- than it tends to go down but you can only do that for so long and then what do you do? So that's the main symptom that and then I get swelling up in my job product area and I don't wake up with this not GM J. or anything like that. It's just it's gotta be linked to my stomach and abdominal problems. 'cause that was pretty early on That all of that started and of course My husband's a doctor. So a lot of connections of and he's I think blown all of them that we've been through but I've been scanned every which way of had every tests done. I have a medical chart of three hundred pages And so so far. My diagnosis is messed cell disease. Which I don't not necessarily sure that's uh so if people want to learn more about you and the symptoms and to see pictures of the swelling. You do have an instagram where people can kind of follow your journey. So what is that? And how can people reach out to help you figure out this? The what is the cause of all of this so I have my you know the fun. Instagram the fake instagram is what I call it. You know everyone's happy show all your kids. You know having great days and I started Documenting this more so like me like the same for the same reason. Either someone has seen this or I can help someone. It's one or the other. And then I ended up separating it from my family page to page so All the weird pictures that you're embarrassed to put up and I'll talk a lot about like daily symptoms and what my problems are and how bad things are or how things are getting better So it's on instagram. And IT IS HELP. H E P and then it's underscore diagnose the I a G. and S. E. underscore me. And so. That's the instagram page. Where I have like the real symptoms and my daily troubles in hopes that someone will listen and someone will figure this out even you know or CNN has been part of it and you hope to get an answer would be amazing. Would be amazing. So let's all crowd source together and find some answers for Donya. I'm I'm really hopeful. And I'm so grateful for you being so honest about what you've been going through and let's let's figure this out. Yes I would love to four appreciate you doing this? This is hopefully going to be great. Sing break guests this week. Courtney Skip Bond Michael Grabner in Donya. Dobkin remember to leave a five star review on itunes or stitcher or wherever? You're listening to this podcast today. You can also jump in the facebook group. I will list all of Donya symptoms. So if you WANNA go through. She's also going to post pictures if you want to reach out to her. Jump into the facebook for that to you. Go into the search button on facebook and put in reality life with Kate Casey. You can find me on twitter at Casey. My instagram is advocate Casey CA. And I'm wishing you all a great. We can also jump into my patriot. Group and get bonus episodes go to P. A. T. R. E. O. N. DOT COM backslash. Casey I will circle back with you next week. I've got Bob Harper from biggest loser and some incredible additional. Gas thanks you.

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Ep. 3,049: UFC 249, with a loss could that be it for Dominick Cruz, the Ultimate Fighter is back, more

MMA Junkie Radio

40:21 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 3,049: UFC 249, with a loss could that be it for Dominick Cruz, the Ultimate Fighter is back, more

"China roll baby on May Junkie Radio with Gorgeous George and this is what we do in why we do it baby. We're covering MMA from all over the world this is the premier for all your combat sports needs MMA junkie radio from the Mandalay Bay resort and Casino in the fight capital of the world. Las Vegas Nevada. The lights are on at the Mike. Sir Hot it's tied to get your ever may fix junkies take it away. Big John Gorgeous George goes. Are you ready? Shuki from the fight capital of the world inside our beautiful home in Las Vegas Nevada. It's the junkie radio. Show the only show that matters that I'm your host Gorgeous George with me as always is the industry goes are. He's Co host on a Sunday. Goes Sunday night getting ready to turn the page? Yup fights coming up. Yeah so we're getting. This went out a little bit early and let go said we might as well just call it five. We don't have to wait till midnight. Fight starts on Monday but yeah we're GONNA call it a little bit early and I'm excited you know we got. Ufc Two forty nine coming up. We started talking about it yesterday when we did our E. U. OF C. Three Card on sports caster. Hopefully you guys caught it. If not go check it out. Sportscaster DOT COM forward slash. Emmy Junkie our last three shows are up there but yeah we were talking about yesterday. And so that's it's upon us. Nothing I keep telling people. I'm not really nervous every time. I go on junkie refresh. It's GonNa Happen. I know it is and so. We're GONNA talk about that card here on today's program along with that we're talking about the latest news in Mixed Martial Arts. You know some rumors here and there and then of course even a couple of boxing promoters taking different stances towards Dana White so buckle up folks it's the Ama Junkie Radio Show on a Sunday. Getting it out early here. We Go Tony Ferguson. Versus just engaging is our headliner in less than a week next. Saturday at the vice star Veterans Memorial arena in Jacksonville. Tony Ferguson versus just engage. You One was going to be crowned the interim lightweight champion. I'm down I have to say I'm fairly confident this is going to happen. I don't have the same worries that I would have had maybe two weeks ago. This just feels like everything set in motion. These fights are going to happen and not just this card but the one right after it and it's just going to be a continuous stream of mixed martial arts for us. I think a lot of us are on the same page now and I'm excited to turn peach in just engage. You say he has five battles left. Don't miss it because he's GonNa retire. You're GONNA miss them doesn't it keeps changing it though. Well yeah so what happened was he said something like battles or historical battles historical. Find something like that then fought a couple of times we really. Hey what are we doing to three? He goes on and on he goes. I said BATTLES GOES. Kinda like slobber knockers and He felt like you know what? There's still a few more of those left. I think he was toying around with words letting us know that maybe he's reconsidered. Or you know the money gets better than money. It's better some big. Big fights are coming up including this one for for gold. I know it's interim title. But still he says he won't feel like a champion until he fights. Habibur Mogomedov for the undisputed. I get that. But it'll still be gold. If he wins over Tony Ferguson for crying out loud except it'll be in front of nobody you know so. I just want him to know. Hey Look I hope this is one of them cause we love watching you justin. You can't count this one against us. Returns out to be a Slobber knocker question is if he wins does he do the flip off the cage. Do you even do that if there's no fans or is that just automatic you know. He's probably in some state of mind. Were probably even forgets. That thousands around the arena and millions are at home. So I imagine if it's something bishops and he can get that stoppage yeah. I think you'll still go through his routine I think they'll they'll be less people there. I think there's going to be the minimal amount like you're gonNA have a three judge is you can have your timekeeper. You have a referee. You can have your doctor doctor. I don't think there'll be a reason for two of them. Maybe they'll be two of them. I'm sure they'll be two teams of the EMT's you know the ambulance all them But you know in Las Vegas. Sometimes you'll have you'll see two or three doctors there. I don't. I don't know that contender series. I usually see at least two once your surgeon. Yeah Dr Sanders Steven Sanders. Yeah look me okay. Let's just say there's two there but I guess what I was GonNa say was You know usually after the fi the they hold a few people back from coming in. You know there's some people that Russia and in Russia I it's it's GonNa be such a minimal amount of people that go ahead man. If you just finished Tony Ferguson. Go ahead and do your flip. I I'd rather him not do it me neither when I was there live. He almost landed on fighter once. Yeah why not? I think. They've seen the highlight where he's hit somebody before. But I just think it's inevitable. But he's got to get to Tony Ferguson. I and yeah that's it. Yeah I think he's a sad man. He's just programmed you know. There's there's so much that goes through them that he feels like he's out of out of Control Innocence. And that's just part of the celebration so we all gotta live with it but He's not too worried about hurting himself. We've told them what if he land man and like just but GSP hurt here right healy's or some. Well they never hit that you know when you watch the gymnastics in the Olympics. And you know they how they have the floor routine and it's like we'll say ninety seconds and they'll go and you'll say oh. Wow look at that. Oh boy he hit that or he or she he or she. Wow Oh my gosh. Yeah they never hit that one all the way holy cow. They're going to get a ten and what you're saying. Basically is along the lines of at the very end. They're gonNA do that one tumble where they run across the whole way. And they're gonNA do backflip after fat back backflip and something crazy but I think we're all thinking if they stick the landing here she's GonNa get a ten. You know possibly can win the gold medal. Well just number his sticks that landing. That's the thing he lands. But he'll stumble around sometimes put his his finger down or something like that and it's a three point stance so that's good. I don't care so much about sticking the landing I just don't want him ever get a serious injury out of that. You know something because look all what does it mean. Third September is going to be big. And I'll tell you why for one. Everybody knows goes in. Iot Born three days apart so September when our birthdays are but what else goes football. It's also going to be be versus the winner this fight. You know what I mean so right now. There's not any big days a look forward to but you know may ninth is huge. But I'm thinking just the month of September circle big for me. That's honestly weren't I think I'm going to feel a little bit more. Like a normal human being not just an enemy fan not just the number may media member but a guy that. I think can probably sit from nine. Am to nine PM in the sportsbook mentally bay kind of like a without a mask maybe you know and just be okay all still wash my hands of cors. I'll still put my mask on. If I'm in close quarters you know a lot but I think I can be in that studio and just start to be a little bit normal and and I think might people around me. My friends my my family my the the coworkers that I know Mandalay Bay. I think everybody will just start to hit their stride. I sure hope so but Emma may wise as well. I just think that that's we're gonna I think that's where the UFC's going to finally put it in fifth gear. You Know Contender. Souza's flying a lot of these shows are flying. Maybe a belt or twos changed but I I think that's when like some big clashes are going to happen. Plus that new stadium's supposed to open you. Know like are the Raiders. I know are the raiders. Going on. It's seventy or seventy thousand. I don't know how could you have your first game and a brand new stadium and nine have fans. I don't know what's going to happen with that. And if they they've shown the covert cases and how they've gone up that job site so they keep saying they're going to open on time but I don't know Things are getting kind of scary over there. Isn't there talk of the NBA. Also finishing their season in Vegas. Yeah in Mandalay Bay is going to be their own bay. The DELANO in Luxor right. So yeah and you know. Mba Playoffs folks that that takes about two months so let's just say they started them all the fourth told till July but they gotta finish the season and then do all that so except where there could be when the Lakers get. I think it might be a little accelerated though because you don't have travel days. You know which maybe separate some of the Games Martin part of it right if you're staying in the same hotel then maybe you just need one day in between or something like that. You don't eat on on some of them you get to because he. You're traveling across country. Sometimes September. Another thing it starts to cool down a little bit. Yeah like it's still hot but like all right. Finally we're in the nineties when in the hundreds like in June July and August anyway. Folks Look Ferguson. Burgess Gauge E is less than a week away. It is fight week. I don't think they're gonNA have you seen anything in regards to A countdown like that. I doubt it. I mean for that you would need cameras. The weekly daily wants all right. Thank God already. Yeah the Embedded embedded. Yeah well. I wouldn't doubt it. I bet you the you have C. We'll have something on their own. Yeah maybe a future. Espn you know thirty for thirty years. Something like that. Maybe you might see some of that. Or maybe they might ask Cornerman to just film a Lot. You know for their phone they give them a phone or something. But I don't know that you'll get your regular fight week hell. I don't even know if it is media going to be allowed there. I don't think so right. I know one media member that might be there. Yeah but I I could see no more than ten. I know that cornermen are going to be allowed right. It seems Moore's law I mean it's but it seems like they're gonNa have their three Cornerman that I don't know I think so you've seen something about that. Yeah okay well. Didn't you say something like inning? Ghana's case what if Eric didn't pass this test and so you had me wondering. Oh boy on God's only bringing Eric I imagine the that was just my example. Oh I don't know anything but what I'm saying is if you're only allowed one cornermen and you show up. They're going to test you as soon as you get there. And for some reason your Cornerman test positive. Now you're left with no cornermen and so I believe they are going to allow three cornerman good. That's the way it should be him all right Henry. Who's fighting Dominick Cruz? That's the other title fight. I'm very much looking forward to that one as well and these two apparently just I would say they have like a history but they know of each other from the state of Arizona from the state from the sport of wrestling. So it'll be interesting to see if it has. Its chance to ramp up a little bit. I will admit that if I was to watch countdown are embedded the I'd like to see a little bit more of the What that kind of history. There might be You know just because there's not Nelson you either but They're both talkers though. Both talkers and for cruise folks. Don't be shocked if Cruz calls it quits soon. This might be it. I'm not saying I know anything. But come on man this guy just he gets it he he just he's he's Injury prone and I have a feeling that he knows he's accomplished enough to already be deeply respected in the sport and not have to. It's not like he has to say. Hey you know what I gotta break. Jones's Jones Enemies Johnson's record for most title defenses or most consecutive defenses or champ champ. No Man you just. You can just pretty much a wait your turn. To get your your blazer into get you know Inducted into the UC Hall of fame. I mean you're already. An awesome analyst may be the best around some say you already have had a pretty historical run. He's covered all the tough coach. Too right yeah practically done at all so literally man if you're if you're really just crawling to the finish line like and you and you win this fight. I mean I guess even win or lose think about it is all I'm saying. Now let's just say says George I just want to attend we camp no problem and let's just say beat Suharto. Then yeah I guess cool. I mean you don't have the wear and tear that the guys do but one day goes I would like to do And here we go give ideas away because I noticed when we say shit a lot other journalists running cash in on that idea i WanNa do a either one of those facebook chats or QNA or just some sort of a segment on fighters had they not had an extra five to just how great their record would have been in how they could've walked away and so much more at peace you know in a way It'd be interesting. Yeah because if he had beaten Mizzou Gawky and then came back and beat dillashaw. I mean he retired at twenty twenty two in one having won the WC belt UFC belt. He would've had title defences. He would avenge his only loss. Which was the favor and that was a trilogy that he wanted to winning so he kind of would have. Just I think the one thing you would we all would've said wow you know he didn't have a lot of title defenses. Are This man. That was just really really injured. Instead he came back and that fight. With Cody Garbrandt. I mean that one did not look good for him. You know what I mean for him to experience another one like that but right now he's going up against triple C. For crying out. Who knows what might happen. It's GonNa be interesting because I don't know that triple C. Is the same fighter. That cody garbrandt is not that. He's better or worse he doesn't have the same fight style. I don't know that he could do some of the things that seemed to give Dominick Cruz. Some problems What he can do really well as as Russell. But Dominic very good at is fighting off that take down. So let's see I mean triple been able to take down a lot of people that people have had problems with you know dimitrius. Johnson's one guy that rarely it's put on his ass and he found a way to put him down not just put them down but keep them down. So let's see how that plays out but it's going to be an interesting fight. I'm very very much looking forward to that. One was got one punch power for sure. So you can match garbrandt there. And he's got amazing wrestling so much so that he won an Olympic gold medal. I'm not sure you knew that. And a lot of the big sayings I can research. Oh yeah he did That's that's just something we don't we we don't know about as long as he wears the gold medal around all the time to tell us all right Branston gone. Numerous has Jerry Xenia. Rosen's stroke folks that that still there and that one's the big firecracker that's you open up your box of fireworks Dan. What'd you get us. Isn't there one call spirit of seventy six and block party or whatever this is the big does the one. You're supposed to end the whole neighborhood. Thirty dollar one. Yeah you know. Hey this is the last one folks I ride. This one's going to be a big one here and and But it's not for title until people say it should be an interim title could be it could be but it's not Neo Ch- it's hard to say I mean I just don't want to go down that rabbit hole which is injured crite quite frequently as of late. It seems like He hasn't been fighting that frequently. And I guess your goes. If if they're gonNA do something with old Habib there why wouldn't they be doing it? Both guys brought it up. We're not anywhere near a date or anything on that fight. So how is that any different at least with Habib we we know he can't fight now but we know exactly when he can fight. If you're going to do it for that why saying the pandemics more important right now than fighting and you know he had some surgeries and I get it. I'm not going to go against what he's saying but he doesn't show he hasn't said anything that leads me to believe in June or July. This fight Michael. Down there still just as huge question mark out there. I think the UC wouldn't be out of line in any way if they had made this for an interim title. Calvin Caterers Jeremy Stevens. That still stands your Nicastro versus Greg Hardy. That still stands so folks. Basically this thing without Amanda Nunez in Felicia Spencer which is going to happen next month. It's pretty much intact They didn't lose anything. It's still a great card. It's going to be a lot of fun for the most part. I think people are just happy to see may back really. I don't even know that they had to come too strong. But what you have ceased doing and we'll see how it works out for him but I I'm excited. There's a great fights top to bottom. How big do you think this thing will be this whole week? Like you think there's going to be the whole. Espn car wash and the big names. Yeah I think they're gonNa make across all those shows and nonstop plugs here and there. I think so. There's nothing left to talk about. What else are we going to talk about? The draft is over so really not much going on in the NFL if NBA comes out and break some news about how they're going to finish their season or year H. l. Then yeah. There's more to talk about right now. There's really nothing to talk about so I don't see why this shouldn't dominate. Denise Cycle Agree. And we're going to be on sports. Caster doing an alternative broadcast on Saturday night. We've done it for all the people of us. It seems like the last two years or so so. I'm glad that that's something that's GonNa stay consistent. Asana goes and now. We're GONNA put a credential to go to Jacksonville. He mentioned something earlier. But honestly I I'm not I don't know I'm free to say but I think one of the members of our steph teased the possibility of being in Jacksonville. I don't know if they're allowing for handpicked you know media or if they actually even open the portal the media portal for people to just try and And if you're willing to go you go but but I think this is going be a little more selective. Yeah I would imagine very selective but I would think the last thing you want our media members of jump jump on planes and do do all those rounds so who knows maybe local media. Yeah there's two boxing promoters who have pined as of late Oscar de la Hoya from golden boy promotions. He says Dana White is doing a phenomenal job. In defending sport during this cove in nineteen pandemic. There was really no reason for Oscar de la. Hoya the founder of golden boy promotions. The former boxing champion. Just eat praise on Dana White in his recent interview with CBS CBS. Sports stayed of combat podcast. But he did and from what I've known of promoters. Yeah when there's a chance to hit somebody at the knees the do the praise well. Yeah it comes but you know it usually follows after that I guess a favor you know what I mean. Dana White and this guy gone at it pretty pretty big. You know the past auditors. Get without below. I think with that whole Tito Ortiz. Chuck Ladele. That was a boiling point. That surprise me now on the flip side you got arum basically saying that Dana White and the AFC could soot sport combat sports back. You know He noted about how you've see to forty nine kind of fell. Apart in the state of California took some politicians to get involved and then he was even bringing up the fact that at one of the fighters tested positive for krona virus. We found out that was lyman. Good so he was out there and he's saying look Don't ruin it for everybody kind of thing. You know what I mean. His quote exactly is good luck to them. He told boxing DOT COM. I just hope that they're not endangering the safety of anyone but this kind of cowboy behaviour doesn't do anybody any good. We're looking now with Nevada. He continues which will do in a sensible way or California. Goes or working with Bob Bennett. Who everybody knows is the Nevada Athletic Commission director and the California State Athletic Commissioner Their top guys Andy Foster Texas too and he says and we're talking on the Texas Commission we're GonNa do this If it's safer the fighters and everyone involved and it's approved by the medical authorities. Why do I bring this up because I think we said something similar we said Hey look okay look? Jacksonville's going down man. We want all the safety in the world for everybody. When I trying to prove a point we'RE NOT GONNA BE. I told you so type of dudes or anything like that if anything goes wrong but it did seem like Nevada would be receptive to hosting events pretty soon just because the state has graded well in the way they've dealt with Cova one thousand nine hundred and when he said that at that will house he talking to Bob Bennett and I'm sure the UC has well. Why haven't they done anything? Maybe halt whatever's happening in in Florida and just getting the damn thing going here in the state on their home grounds where I know they would do an even better job of hosting the event. I don't know that everything Bob Arum said was wrong. Honestly I kind of I agree with him in the sense of the sense of direction that the you have C. Had when they were trying to get into touchy pals. I thought that was a big mistake for a lot of reasons that Bob that Baburin brought up but now things have kinda changed a little bit and he's right. It does have some feeling of politics being involved and and all that put. I think they might have just gotten past that. I think everything's GonNa be okay in that aspect. Obviously if somebody has positive or something that that could hurt a lot. I don't know that will bleed over to the other sports just because the other sports have done such a good job of keeping their distance from the UFC. It seems like baseball's kind of on the same page as basketball on saint pages hockey. They seem like they're working together. the UFC has been more of a renegade doing things on their own. So I think if they fail that failure we'll just go towards them and not sports in general. I think if he hadn't mentioned that he had been talking to Nevada and California. I think I would've looked at that and said all there goes old bob again. You know. He just doesn't like Dana. They exchange Christmas cards or anything. And then my point my only would would have been like. Hey what happened to deloite? Change it tune but when I saw that quote I thought hold on a second the why. Why is this going down in Florida? They're having sensible talks now. It could be that for him. His interpretation of whatever he's heard from better foster maybe that meant July or August and dean is like not even trying to hear anything regarding Nevada unless it starts with the word may the month of. May that we're in if that's the case then. Dana just probably did not WANNA way he wants to get those shows in this year forty two of them to ESPN and the sooner the better you you. You can't turn back the clock. Yeah Anyway He did finish out again by saying we're not going to be cowboys. I don't WanNa get politics involved but I have very. I have really very little respect for Dana. And what he's doing and cowboys he doesn't seem like cowboys. Very much right Any type of behavior that that Bob. Arum doesn't like your cowboy. He said he would look to take us from the NBA or the NFL. He mentioned Adam. Silver and Roger Goodell specifically you know when I think of those big big sports like that a they probably have committees of scientists and experts that they lean on before they make their decisions. So I get what Bob Arum saying. Look what are they saying? If they're saying something then you know it's it's been vetted it's been studied and you know the sounds like the best decisions can be made if you follow those sports. I think is what he's trying to say whereas Dana seems to be like I'm GONNA lead the way And I don't know but hey it's fight week. What can we do I kind of? I don't want him with both of them. Yeah I really do If Dana White can pull it off and it seems like they are really trying to do this in a safe manner. Then Yeah I. At the end of the day I think he would have been right but all it takes is one thing to fall out of line and it's GonNa blow up in his face and I I honestly don't know what the comeback is if you're him. I don't know what you say. Yeah agreed How about that interview? We did with big John McCarthy he basically came straight up and said I want my guys. I didn't want my fellow referees. He's got a referee anymore. But I think the regular head I think they regard him as one you know even though he's the color commentator Bel Tor I think whatever he says has a lot of weight in the referee and judge world. He didn't want his guys at the California show. Because it wasn't going to be sanctioned and that's not the way you do it that he goes that goes against everything that the C. stood for under the zoo for era where they ran towards You know these governing bodies versus running away from the government by John Johnston and sports so long that they had to go to different states. That would allow it for them to go through with the you know pulling off these. Ufc shows and it was different. Under the era of the fatigue. Brothers they wanted the government involved and they wanted to have a set of rules that would be observed by all the commission's out there and they didn't want some senator or congressman or something like that constantly battling them with much of the former Senator John McCain who passed recently Senator McCain like the guy who actually enjoy this combat sport but he didn't like the way it wasn't being regulated. I think when big John Ends his career it's finding because I think so many people are GonNa remember him as the referee and then I think they'll be a new crop of people just remember him as a broadcaster but really really where he said. His mark was trying to get to sport off the ground regulated. You even going back to the early. Ufc's that dude's he's been through a lot so you have to respect that guys opinions when he speaks. I'm not saying you have to agree with them but you have to respect them. And I think it's it's funny that he still keeps in contact with these guys. Because I think that proves that point that they. There's guys like Herb Dean. Jason heard her great referees but they still like to get the input of big John. I think that goes a long way so when a guy like that speaks up. I don't know that you just kind turn a blind eye to anything he says. I think you have to respect everything. That guy says agreed for sure and I would like him to be a part of fame. Well for sure but I would have liked for him to be consulted on. How referees and judges are going to do their job in front of no crowd and with possible. Any form of limitations. You know what I mean I know. He works for the competitor. Excuse me but I still think you could pull them in and say hey look. This is what we're thinking of doing on. May ninth in Jacksonville. Florida doesn't make sense. I I don't want the state of Florida to suggest you know what the judges Should be in the fifth row as opposed to cage side. I Want Big John. Either and say no no. No no no no no. They may do that and make right. They may do that and be safer. But if we'RE GONNA do this. We all agree to some form of risk. But we're not we're not GONNA do is short change sport. You know what I mean and and have them have less of a field of vision or something like that like for him to to be a part of that decision making I guess And I think even Dana White should be able to say that totally makes sense. Two more quick stories goes Dana White announced the full list of the UFC matchups for May thirteenth and May Sixteenth Florida. So now we know the fight. Cards for May Ninth Thirteenth and sixteenth remember. The thirteenth is a It's a fight night series in. It's a Wednesday includes Anthony Smith versus glover to Shera Big Ben Ruffalo versus Vincent Prudhoe versus Alexander Hernandez Ray board versus Ricky Simone and Carl Roberson Verses Marvin Vittorio. That's the main card on the prelims. You still got Michael Johnson. Chase Sherman's back goes Andre. Our Law Ski suggestion eubanks. Brian Kelleher so pretty cool to see What the future holds. You know what I mean. All these cars that are coming up. That's the one on the thirteenth interview. Curious about the sixteenth. I'll tell you real quick about that one because basically we have three fight cards in eight days. I'm excited about that. That's headline by analysts are over versus wall terrace yet. Khadijeh was Angela Hill. Dante Gabor's it's Barbosa. Eric Andrews versus Chris Dodd Jot. Go Song it on versus Marlin Anthony Hernandez Versus Kelvin Kevin Holland Darren Elkins Nate Land. We're Courtney Casey. They're all filling out the rest of the fight card. Those aren't bad fight. Cards goes those I'm down. I'm starving from as it is so if you're going to give me great cards on top of it. Cool yeah tough. He was asked about this on. Read it and it's going to be returning. I put something out on facebook. I couldn't believe I was kind of in the minority. People were like. Yeah yeah bring a back. We still get something out of it and I was like no no. I don't WanNa see it anymore but this is I think this is the tough I was getting tired of. It was twice a year and it. Just I don't know wasn't fulfilling me with the whole like we had the isolate these two coaches and they may or they may not find and even the coaches didn't seem as into it as the first couple of seasons. There'd be a huge huge bill. They'd actually be a huge part of the story leading up to a for now a fight weekend. That include finale on Friday. And you know the pay per view on Saturday just seem to be so much of a bigger deal. But I felt like Dana White contender series. Just stole all their thunder a reality television. You had to win. You had to impress. And then you had to sit in a little kitchen originally and wait for dino say you're in or you're out you know and then the kids. We only had to wait one more week to do it all again. You know what I mean. And then you brought up families in the families would hold their breath. It was pretty cool and I was like. Why are we going back to tough? I mean I guess comeback season sure tough you do I do so then I I wanted to meet those guys have Wang Okay. Maybe once a year sure but I yeah. You told me why you like. Let me tell you. Oh for one. I I just think it's good exposure Dana White's contender series is great. But you get one week. One shot to prove yourself and then after that there's a new crop of fighters coming out right. Ten new fighters tough is a little bit lasting. Sometimes it doesn't work out but really what it comes down to you and this is what I want to pick your brain on is who do you have coaching. Because I think a lot of the Times you tune into tough to see the coaches and then from there you fall in love with some of the contestants right you start to go okay. This guy's guys fun to watch. And that's why you tune in week to week along with coaches antics and stuff like that but initially I think what draws you in or the coaches so who would you have coach. This new season tough. I have my answer and I think I've said this before on the show but I want to hear yours. Well fuck this one is tough Talking about how Woodley in Covington. That's my choice is really yeah. I think that fight could be huge but I think if you build it up which what. That's what I think. Tough is really good for is building that type of animosity Those possible scuffles all that. I think that's a gold book. Covington Woodley fight would be. It's going to be fun to watch but on top of that and in some of the I'm right on this agree I don't disagree but would last fought in May of our sorry march of two thousand eighteen when lost the title to his mind if they go in and start coaching now by the time that they do the six weeks and they cut it up and then they start in September and then the fight happens in December. That means it'll be one year since we saw COMINGTON fight and he had a great five versus. It'll be one year one year and nine months since we saw Woodley fight all because of that setback. That this thing does well. We don't know when the show's actually coming back. They just said it coming back right. This could be a month from now. Two months three months with things like fight island would be shocked. This is something that quickly. Yeah I think this is further down the road to other fighters that I could think of. That would be a lot of funding this Jones. If you WANNA make that fight happen I think that would be out of study and I don't think they would make it costs as custos natty do kind loose cannon. Oh Yeah I don't know if they could get to fighters that have just been fighting pretty frequently and they could use the break. Sure but I just WanNa see these top dogs fight. May I just remember being spoiled and seeing a lot of these guys fight three times a year and then if they did that I I used to even say look last year you fought January July and December? I get it Bro. You'RE NOT GONNA turn around if you just fought January July and December. How you can turn on and do it again. Because January's that went the falls December so as to say the next year can be something in April or May give me something in September boom fights in two years and then we'll start again with January-september July and December whatever Y-. It's really really tough to go three to have that year where you go to but I notice a lot of fighters are going like what did we mention about. Mealtime defended since he fought D. C. N. N. No He's had the injury but the time before Same thing there was batting. Dc had the injury or something like that and we couldn't go. And I don't know man you know and I know these guys are getting paid really good money. But they're not getting paid Mike Tyson money. You know what I mean like to And they're not getting younger and the whole point is to compete. You know I don't enter an NFL season and they go this year. The forty niners will not play a couple of guys needed some time off or they needed this or they needed that. Fuck no man. We repair those guys. Shove them right back out there and they have just a serious injuries. So I don't know I just I don't need another reason to hold guys back for anything longer than than what it used to be. But I guess I'll concede and maybe every two years just one tough season. Okay but I would rather have instead of ten weeks contenders ten weeks in the summer ten weeks in the winter. Let's do it. I could do one a year. Contenders no ultimate fighter. I think one of your all right last question. What are the other plans that they might have Ramaz it? I'll take some guesses because that sucks. I thought he was fighting. Newsman with the fuck else could be out there. That could be you know that they could be talking to him about and should be hanging up the phone and going up. I don't WanNa do that. I'm fighting one. I mean it is. It's gotta be more money than fighting for the title right. So that Gregor's Conor McGregor right. Maybe Nick Hamm and eventually bring your belt. I don't think anybody would take chances on. Nikki is right now. Yeah I don't know we're going GONNA. That's GONNA be the big guessing game. I guess for the next few days or weeks until we can actually pin down Dana. Go All right. Hold on a second dude. You don't just throw that out there and you know leave it leave it as is. I mean what's the deal here is either new ironman or what? I mean what's going to happen here. All right folks. We will see you all on Wednesday for an Emmy Junkie Radio. Show then on sports caster check us out. That's our video version of this show and then of course on Saturday we're going to be doing a watch along for UC to forty nine on sportscaster and of course later in the week we'll do a little bit more of the preview for UFC. Two forty nine. We'll do the best fight odds You know we'll have that window open and talk about our parlays and everything going into the week because folks. It is five week in. This thing's happening. I'm I'm Pretty Damn sure I'm ninety nine point nine percent sure that it's going down. Follow us on twitter and instagram. Adamy Junkie George goes is at the goes. The radio show is at an agent radio. We'll see you all then go out there NBA champion.

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Sept 25, 2019: Ukraine Call Memo Released; School Opioid Program

Here & Now

42:14 min | 1 year ago

Sept 25, 2019: Ukraine Call Memo Released; School Opioid Program

"From NPR and WBZ Robin Young. I'm Jeremy Hobson it's here and now we now know that president trump asked the Ukrainian president to quote do us a favor in investigate trump's political opponent Joe Biden on a phone call. That's according to notes the call released by the White House this morning. Will it be judged as a quid pro. Quo Quo for the aid. The trump administration held up to Ukraine days earlier. President trump is now the fourth American president to face impeachment Nixon left office before it could be enacted but it's not a claim to fame for most but trump's campaign is already fundraising off it our political strategists join us Alice Stewart Republican in the studio with us hi Alice Hi Robyn during great great to be here and bill press the Democrat hi there hello hello good to join you all okay. The notes of the call and is Jeremy said these are just notes assist transcript say trump praised the prosecutor that Vice President Joe Biden and other world leaders pushed to be fired because of his blatant corruption and trump not only asked Ukraine's crain's president to look into Biden and his son but to look into crowd strike the company that determined the Russians hacked democratic emails but trump said today today it was no biggie the way you had that built up that caller was going to be the call from Hell. It turned out to be nothing. Call other than a lot of people said. I never knew you could be so nice. That's the president speaking at the UN Alice do you agree nothing call. There are certainly some things that do need to be looked at further author but to to say this warrants an impeachment when we still don't have further information I think is very premature for the Democrats to go ahead head and call for an impeachment before they had even seen the transcripts. I think is extremely telling but you have to look at the facts here. It is worth noting it is worth raising the question that the president wanting them to look at what happened with Joe Biden. I am not one that will come on and play what aboutism but if you ask me what Joe Biden I didn't said with the Ukrainian president he certainly did things that raise concerns he withheld funding in an effort in request to stop looking into his son who has received up quite a bit of money from the Ukraine. I don't I'm not one to play what aboutism but that is certainly that should have raised more red flags when it happened and it didn't into change the valid a valid cause for concern now bill your take well first of all. Let's get this straight. There is zero evidence that Joe Biden or son did anything wrong. He's they've never been charged with anything that's been looked into extensively by. US media nobody found nothing so any attempt to divert attention and shift the blame or the attention from Donald Trump to Joe Biden is just what Republicans did in twenty sixteen trying to shift the attention away from Donald Donald trump onto Hillary Clinton now back to this phone call look based on the notes and based on what Donald Trump says. I think this is extremely serious serious. What we've got the facts and the transcript confirm the president of the United States called a foreign leader and ask his help in in digging up dirt on political opponent that is illegal? I think it is treasonous. It is certainly wrong and in the meantime he is dangling angling four hundred million dollars in military aid and a White House visit no open quid pro quo but certainly quid pro quo. If as the the president started out by saying we needed to do us a favor and asking him to talk to the attorney general so dragging the attorney general also into this political fight eight and asking him to talk to his political hatchet man Rudy Giuliani. I don't care whether the Repub the president is a Republican or Democrat. I think this is something that all Americans understand understand is just plain wrong. Does it matter if it is a quid pro quo when it comes to Democrats and impeachment because impeachment is not a legal matter batter. It's political. I don't think it matters. There's a quid pro. Quo I think for a president to again. Invite foreign a foreign government to intervene in our American democracy or presidential election is wrong essentially wrong it is against the law and the president obviously didn't learn anything from twenty only sixteen then he welcomed the help of the Russians now. It's even worse he's going out and soliciting help from Ukraine but I will say this bill saying there's zero evidence with regard to Joe Biden there is and there's Joe Biden himself acknowledging that he did try to withhold funds allies Ukraine. I have to say as as as vice president this was part of his portfolio he was representing the Obama Administration which along with leaders of many countries was pressuring Ukraine in to get rid of this leftover from the russian-backed presidency corrupt prosecutor who by the way he was charged with investigating the company that Hunter Biden and sat on the board of he wasn't he was asking for bribes. He wasn't doing the investigation and the Obama factor. The Obama Administration was backing other investigations investigations of Donald Trump called him a good man. He's the only person on the planet who thinks he was a good man. The only problem with bill you saying there's there's zero evidence there is evidence and Joe Biden himself acknowledged it and quite frankly bragged about doing so to say there's no evidence. I think it's less pleased. Actually there is a complete conflict of interest for him to not to get involved in a in a prosecutor that is looking into a company in which his son is is making millions of dollars off is only say WHOA WHOA WHOA slow down. The only evidence you cite is the fact that Joe Biden as vice president of the United States representing the Obama Administration as Robin just pointed out as well as many other countries in the EU knew about all this corruption options in Ukraine a lot of it was centered on this crap prosecutor and it was a almost a global effort on the part of convincing Ukraine. They had to get rid of him but the evidence of what Donald Trump talks about and you seem to indicate that there was any wrongdoing that there was any corruption on the part of Joe Biden or hundred Hunter Biden Biden does not exist is a total invention of Donald trump alice. president trump is holding a news conference in a few hours time what what's at stake for him is he scared has he lost control of the presidential narrative as the ABC News Political Director recline rights today no because here's what's going to happen the Democrats right now and liberals have their hair on fire already expecting to know the result of this and expecting to see the outcome. This was a repeat performance of what we saw in the report they prejudge the outcome of that they speculated as to what the Mullahs report would find an he was actually president this time it wasn't it's not looking back is not before he was president. This is something that president trump did as president sir you're correct that's true but my point is again. Democrats and liberals and many of those who are critics of this president are speculating they know exactly how this will come about and how this will end. I think it is completely far reaching it is inappropriate to prejudge the outcome of this investigation and and if the Democrats want to spend all of their time investigating seeking impeachment as opposed to getting things done and legislating. They're doing so at their own peril right now. We have the spot what we have dictating what Nancy Pelosi is doing dictating what the Democratic Party is doing and quite frankly this is putting Joe Biden on walking walking off the cliff because they're going to put him front and center and he's going to have to be and does she ever hold on Quinnipiac thirty seven percent of registered voters say trump mm should be impeached fifty seven percent. Should he says say he should not. I mean impeachment against just the trial fifty seven percents. He should not be impeached. Put on trial well first of all. I got to say I'm not arguing that this is necessarily politically popular. I just think it's the right thing to do and you can't blame A. UC The squad for this Nancy Pelosi held off going toward impeachment until Donald Trump invited impeachment with this phone. Call this and again. I don't think wish I would hope that we don't fall into the trap by many of the media falling into just considering this another little hiccup in the twenty twenty political campaign. It's not let's go go back to the fact a president of the United States solicited help from a foreign country to intervene and dig up dirt on his political opponent. I think all Americans whether so that Republicans is where the president is a Republican or Democrat that has to concern us that is just dead wrong okay. I just want to ask one question because this is really our only opportunity in a matter of days to ask to political strategists this question which is sort of aside from the main story which is what does this mean for twenty twenty. This is Joe Biden speaking yesterday. This isn't a democratic issue or Republican issue. It is a national issue. It's a security he did not take questions. Bill a star with you but just be quick so we can get alison here as well. Does this raise Biden stature sure. Is there a way for the other candidates to get in there now that this has happened it certainly well. It raises attention on him because Donald Trump is focused the attention on him but again I I don't view this as a political plus or minus for Donald Trump or Joe Biden. I think Biden is right. This is a national security issue. This goes to the very fundamental title principles and values of this country that we love and Donald Trump is trashing them and democrats were had to do something about it. I view this as the Democratic Party Bernie Sanders Dr Sanders Biden this time they do not want him to be the nominee as as we have said two thirds of Americans do not want impeachment and of Joe Biden wants to to wrap himself in this argument and spent his time on the campaign trail talking about impeachment talking about this issue he is wasting valuable time. When you can be talking about healthcare he can be talking about the economy he can be talking about immigration and this is going to open up the lane and open up the momentum that Elizabeth Warren and others are currently gaining on him and he wants to talk about impeachment he can do so but it's at his own peril because the American rather talk about the real don't worry don't worry don't worry he'll be talking about all those other issues which he has been all along? You're not fearing not the Democratic Strategist Alice Stewart the Republican you guys thank you so much thank you this message comes from. NPR SPONSOR MIND BODY MIND mind body connects millions to the widest variety of local fitness classes and the offer the same experience when it comes to massage and acupuncture spas and salons find book and pay all in one place owners can join the network at mind body online dot com slash NPR mind body your access to the largest consumer wellness network and marketplace by two thousand Seventeen Ohio was second only to West Virginia in the rate of OPIOID opioid overdose deaths thousands more than just six years ago. It is so bad so bad that a school district in Ohio has started a program. I'm for children of addicted. Parents and grandparents joining us from men furred Ohio. A rural town in the southern part of that state is Kendrick Cram a social emotional national teacher hired last year to teach elementary school kids little kids how to deal with trauma Kendra. Welcome Hi Robin and Marian applegate is the district school psychologist allergist who said she started noticing changes her students about a decade ago Merrin thanks to as well thanks Robin you know there have always been kids suffering bring from parents addictions you know children of alcoholics who are making breakfast for their siblings and you know kids you might notice who are coming in wearing the same clothes every day. Eh but how has it exploded exponentially because of the opioid crisis I mean can you tell us some of the things you're seeing without of course giving away identities absolutely we so some of the things that we're seeing in the school setting in that about ten years ago our preschool teachers across our county across our area were reaching out and kind of screaming aiming for help a lot of the behaviors that were seeing traditional. Things don't work with kids that just completely shut down. I mean completely shut down no affect no response not taking in information. We see a lot of transient see in kids so we have a lot of kids that are you know here with us for a minute moving somewhere else somewhere else and then back to us I just worked through one students records who has attended almost we have thirteen school districts in Mark County and she's attended almost every single one of those districts within a year as well as truancy. we see a lot of missing school being late to school parents not showing up to pick up things like that kids behaviors. You know we see some real limited I contact lots of disconnection from I'm kind of the world around them and what's happening in the classroom setting not showing a lot of empathy or care for peers or understanding you know it appears have feelings and emotions we've seen a lot of Tantrum ing or meltdowns and and those things like kicking screaming hitting throwing wing and these kids are extremely hard to de-escalate so traditional kids we use our strategies and we're able to de-escalate very quickly and get back into the classroom classroom setting and your kids across America are seeing too much violence but do we understand in in just inferred just as one town last I academic year four kindergartners lost parents to fatal overdoses a fifth lost apparent to a drug related homicide Kendra AH up possible we've had a lot of kids that have been affected by the opioid crisis here in our county and in our school district and and even Tom had a child that came to school and got off the bus winter breakfast came to to me and said you know my mom died this morning. Oh and it was true. Her mother had passed away earlier that morning and she had gotten herself on the bus and and gotten herself to school and I'm just saying very matter of factly my mom overdose this morning as a very young child having to cope with that kind of emotional title trauma and stress and that's what we're seeing a lot of is is that our kids are are dealing with a lot of trauma and what we know from research is that children who are we're dealing with trauma or in that survival part of their brain that downstairs part of their brain and when that's happening they're not able to access their prefrontal frontal cortex which allows them to retain information and gain new information so they're they're not able to to learn math or reading or writing during the at school day. They're thinking about survival skills and getting an food to eat or or having their basic needs met the trauma is affecting their academic academic outcomes and their and their development will their life. They're very life line or it's one thing to be in a room when your parent dies but then these kids suffer for the violence of addiction they've been you know beaten up molested. I mean it's just awful and also some of them have been born to active addicts and so they might have consequences quences of of that so Merrin talked about some of the things you're trying to do here. I understand that there's a room for instance. Where there's there's blankets? You know the heavy blankets the kind we hear about thunder blankets that you want to put on puppies but it's for the children to have calmed down yes gas so we have a sensory room and our elementary building and we have a variety of things to calm kids as well as things to stimulate their senses so we have kids that go in there that may spend five to ten minutes on the trampoline just jumping to get out every bit of energy that they have or maybe they're jumping jumping to put some energy in oxygen into their brain to get themselves going. We have things like lava lamps that are coming to look at It's a small space. That's organized and not overwhelming where kids can go to come back to themselves whether it's journaling were jumping on the trampoline or the bouncy ball or building with legos whatever it is that they need at that point in time and Kendra. I WanNa ask you you when you work. The there are people who come into the school system to work one on one you work with groups. How do you work with kids again? A child of an alcoholic doesn't WanNa say what's going on at home. Somebody who's watching their parents shoot up with techniques to use to interact with them. We are implementing social emotional to learning program at our school where every child and kindergarten through fourth grade comes for forty five minutes every single week even if they may not have active opioid addicted parents every every every child every child so I see about five hundred children a week they come in for forty eighty five minute sessions so our children have activities like music and gym and library but they also have social emotional learning as an activity so they have a scheduled time that is time to make social connections and interpersonal connections doing mindfulness activities and learning learning about establishing and maintaining positive relationships in me how to manage their emotions how to set and achieve positive goals how to feel Lynch Oh empathy for other people how to make responsible decisions and to have effective communication so during our our sessions. We're talking about OUTTA manager. Emotions gives an example how that looks for instance. She talked about children are being able to meet someone's gays and is it literally. Let's practice looking pigmeat. Is I mean how does that. This is myron jumping in absolutely an Kendra talked about all those things one of the key components to that is the modeling rolling in practice here we do a lot of modeling of it a lot of practice with in Kendra in her setting and then we work for that carryover into the classrooms are teachers. There's no what Kendra is working on and what does the skill is and oftentimes they feed her what the concerns are and what they'd like her to focus on so really making sure that Koenders implementing it as well as we're providing that carryover into the classroom setting and that modeling and practice and trying to make it a routine and behavior by continued practice well. It's one thing for the kids who have the active parents at home by using this spills over to other kids who may not come from a home where opioids are being abused. Yes absolutely all of our children can Dan benefit from social emotional learning and whether they've had significant trauma in their life or not and it's important to note at that a lot of families in our area have had a lot of trauma and what we're doing is we're really taking that research seriously about educating educating the whole child and looking at that and saying you know what we need to provide more than just thinking about reading writing and math we need need to help these children to become productive citizens to to be happy and to really look at mental health. Tell us more about why that is I I mean are they aware that their community is getting shattered by this. I mean probably a lot of people are related and so I usually yeah yeah. Every family in the community is impacted in some way whether there's a friend family member the majority of the members of our community are feeling some type of overflow overflow from it and in the school setting the kids is they're talking about it and they're processing you said something a little bit earlier and I was thinking about you know normalcy and what these kids some of these kids see is normalcy is so much different than what we see is normalcy. So were you talk about kids not wanting to share what's going on at home and what we see with the younger kids. They really don't know that it's wrong or different. It's what they've always tone and what they've always seen so they do share and we get lots of information and they share with their peers and then so there's a lot of conversation back and fourth and helping them to try to well respecting their family and their family's issues that are going on also help them to realize that there's there's other ways to do things there's other ways to be in this world. That's adminstered school psychologist Maron applegate and we spoke with the district social and emotional not Kendra cram about how not one child in the town's elementary school has not been touched by the OPIOID crisis. I can't get over the little girl who gets herself to school after watching her. Mom died so we're going to have them both back tomorrow with what they're doing to cope. We have kids who are showering at school. Well we have agencies. We work with that provide us new clothing to provide two kids have laundry accessible at school. Men for police cars and ambulances are cornell stocked with backpacks filled with things like blankets and toys for the kids they have to rescue after parents overdose. If you live in a community that's been hit this way by the opioid crisis with to hear from you Skyros here from how I built this on NPR a PR and on our latest episode we tell the story of how Andy Putty Komen Rich Pearson turned Andy's experience as a Buddhist monk into a guided meditation APP and it's called head space now used by millions of people around the world new episodes come out every Monday listen and subscribe right now or we're now on today's news the White House releasing notes from July phone call between president trump and his Ukrainian counterpart that show the US president offering up the services of his personal lawyer and Attorney General to investigate Joe Biden and his son. The president insists he did nothing wrong. It was a perfect call but Democrats have launched an impeachment impeachment inquiry. Let's bring an NPR national security correspondent Greg Murray and Greg the president re tweeted CNN saying that the memo does not show a quid a pro quo there was no mention of the military aid that had been held up by the US before the call Democrats say that doesn't matter the president pressure foreign foreign government to help him by investigating arrival. What would do you think we learned from these notes right why would break down into two parts and one is the legal part where where trump is saying the US has been very good to Ukraine? He doesn't specifically mentioned military aid. Although the Ukrainian president does and so the lawyers can can argue over this and about whether there was a quid pro quo or not but there's a second part and that would just be abusive power impeachment would be a political act so even if there's not a specific crime the Democrats are arguing that the president abused his power by asking a foreign leader to help go after a political opponent yeah yeah well the president does say get in touch with Rudy Giuliani and the Ukrainian President says Oh we'd love to have him and president also says Attorney General Bill the bar will get involved. Are there any legal questions there well yeah the president sort of winds up and gets to two Giuliani embar by saying. I would like you to do us a favor. Can you look into this. so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great so he he he introduces really Giuliani three times into the conversation. and Giuliani had been involved in this for months. It wasn't just a single phone call here. Giuliani Liane had been in contact with Ukrainian leadership talking about this kind of stuff so this comes after this month's of activity you by by Giuliani in terms of trying to talk about investigating Joe Biden their insinuations to that we should point out the president says to the president trump trump says to the Ukrainian president you know the United States has been very very good Ukraine. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening not good but the US has been very good Ukraine sort of that talk of you know you haven't been as good to us read into that but just the flat out. you know offering up of the attorney general we're learning today that intelligence officials referred these this conversation to the Department of Justice for potential criminal charges the the DOJ didn't act kind of conflict. Is there there that the DOJ run by Attorney General Bar doesn't act on a complaint in which he's involved yeah yeah right no exactly and and we don't have an answer to that right now. Bill Barr says he didn't know about this call until several weeks later but it certainly raises racist questions. Why didn't he know about it? Did He know that his Justice Department was trying to make a decision on this case of whether it should be referred to Congress or not what whether he knew whether he was involved in that decision so this transcript memorandum has has raised a lot of questions congress this might hear from the whistleblower at the heart of this later this week will learn more about that. NPR National Security correspondent Greg Mari thanks much touching base with US my pleasure Robin and Wilco I hope obviously cover this story throughout the day on NPR all this week we've been talking about legal immigration. We've heard from an expert who believes the trump administration is making it too difficult for people to come to the US legally and we've heard from someone who advises the trump administration and doesn't believe the White House is going far enough to restrict legal immigration you can hear those conversations at here now dot org today some people personally personally affected by the changes foreign enrollment in US universities has fallen for two years in a row and last spring university presidents from every four year university in College in New Jersey wrote a letter to Congress said it's become harder for foreign students and professors to study at work in the US and that is weakening American higher education and we're joined now by Elizabeth Gill Director of International Employment and immigration at Montclair State University in New Jersey. Welcome thank you so much for having me will tell us about your experience. What has changed the most in the past couple of years for Mont Clair's foreign born students so I think we're seeing changes on a number of different levels? first of those is in visa processing just trying to get students here and then after that getting students to be able to stay here legally helping them they able to renew their visas successfully and then dealing with work authorization and are you seeing a big decline the amount of students who are able to make it through all of that. It's hard to get a good counts on visa denials because that information is self reported by students didn't but we are hearing anecdotally that students are having difficulty with the visa process was speaking to one of our Education Faculty W. members just a couple of days ago and she's noticed in her graduate program a big increase in visa issues and denials over the past couple of years so for instance this fall they admitted three international students who seemed to be financially stable had every intent and plan to return to their home countries after graduation which is a big part of the F. One visa process and of the three only one of them was actually able to come to the US so that can be really really frustrating would understand that you have seen a lot more requests for evidence from the government for students and employees who are trying to get into the country. That's correct correct so there are two parts to that last summer. US citizenship and immigration services issued a policy memo about request request for evidence or RFE's that basically said that their officers were no longer required to issue a request for evidence since for a petition or application that seemed to be lacking in some way that they now had the authorization to deny an application Asian outright so that caused a lot of anxiety amongst employers of H. One B. Workers and then in addition to that we've just seen this increase crease in requests for evidence that we wouldn't necessarily have seen what about when it comes to faculty that you're trying to bring it so the same kind of thing but you know when we are hiring somebody from abroad for certain countries and in certain fields of study. We're very regularly really now. Seeing the person is being sent through additional of Visa Review for instance right. Now we have scientists from Pakistan who who applied for a visa in early March and that application is still pending with no real end in sight so we have an unfilled position and and that person is in a kind of limbo while they wait for the results so some of the people who believe that tightening up the visa systems for international students in particular is a good thing we say that these students are just propping up. US universities with torsion but they're taking spaces that American students could have filled. Have you heard that and what do you say to that well. At montclair state. We have a really very richly diverse community of students of faculty and scholars and we're always looking for the best students since and employees that we can find regardless of where they come from so you know that doesn't come into our decision making process. It's it's it's about finding the best students in the best employees that we can that is Elizabeth Gill who's director of International Employment and immigration at Montclair our State University of New Jersey. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me Jeremy and now let's get the perspective of someone who struggle to cut through the red tape high-skill employment based I vs on denials have spiked in the last couple of years according to data from the Department of Homeland Security Immigration Lawyers say the process for getting a visa is becoming longer and more complicated and immigration advocates fear. That's driving high skilled workers out of the US to places like Australia Europe or Canada. Hassan Bhatti is one of those people he's found himself living living in Toronto where he co founded Crypto Numeric Data Science Company. He's a Pakistani immigrant who graduated from the University of British Columbia in two thousand fifteen gene then started working at a startup at y combinator the business that launched dropbox AIRBNB and Hassan joins us now from Toronto now in two thousand seventeen seventeen you gave up trying to immigrate to the US what happened in a few my friends actually came up with an idea we were lucky to find ourselves elves in Silicon Valley to vie combinator in two thousand sixteen but as event through the process of going through combinator raising money money and the company was doing well and growing hiring more employees the challenge mean that most of us international and some of us for international from countries which are more in the third world or developing economies and we applied for my visa initially God requests for more information we summitted made them more requests for more information as well but then the visa was denied unfortunately it during that process there was a change in poverty in the US as well. I don't think there was more scrutiny on individuals who are applying for visas especially coming from countries which are not your anglo-saxon countries Hendrie's Lane Europe or North American countries moved to the US so have you totally given up on the idea of coming to the United States to work in the US right now. I'm I'm focused on getting my Canadian citizenship outfit and I think in your twenties it's much more easier to make a base and foundation in the new country now as you then develop up those routes it's harder to them in the cost of uprooting them goes higher and higher so I think it has to be much more significant reason for me to move and try again to the US immigration gratien process instead of discounting in Canada moving somebody else now you you as a CO founder of crypto numeric have hired engineers who have immigrated to Canada as well. What do you hear from them and people you know back in Pakistan about whether the US is still an attractive destination for school and work so so as an example we recently were entering a candidate who graduated from Ucla in a PhD program and he went back to India and unfortunately unfortunately his visa back to the US was not approved so he stuck in India but his professor is allowed him to continue his thesis work in India and he's now looking to move to Canada and they're smart bright person who is graduating from one of the top institutions in in the in the country but unable to get even his visa as a definitive education there type of challenges to really happening talk to friends are looking to in Pakistan or to move abroad? I think Canada and Australia seem like much of an easier option just because of their simple simplified immigration process where the US seems like more complex. It's more expensive a lot of people have done. Mba's as now there we've come to Canada now after doing them as Grad school because they do not find h beebe after their one year two year work permit so they had to move back to their home countries or the some of the move to Canada so if there's a member of Congress or somebody in the White House who's listening to this right now. What would your message be to them? I think they definitely need to hugh rethink their immigration strategy because I think a lot of people want to move to the US because there's a lot of opportunity but if it's really hard and complex for someone to do that and they can find an easier option people are willing to give up some conomic benefit for the social reasons and for the comfort of being stability AH certainty of that they can stay in the country so I think the US definitely needs to think about their immigration to make more certain and predictable for individuals that is Hassan Bhatti who is joining us from Toronto where he has cofounded a data science company after not not getting his visa here in the United States Hassan thank you thank you very much that a UN report out today that says the pace of sea-level rise is accelerating as global warming melts is around the world and marine heatwaves get more common. It is something indigenous people in the Bering Sea region already know the report was from the Intergovernmental Panel on climate change the Bering Sea the body of water between Russia and Alaska's Aleutian islands is the subject of a new series by how Burton reporter for the Seattle Times who joins us now and how the dateline on your first story Salonga Alaska and island right between Russia and Alaska a place few people visit. Can you just describe. I what it's like there while it's an island that that doesn't have a lot of trees but has a rich abundance of sealife all around it and the people who live there. You're the Yupik Eskimos have really built amazing subsistence culture through the centuries. That's partially based around the ice more recently. They've actually gotten involved in just sort of small scale commercial fishing for Halibut but everything in nat whole area has changed dramatically in recent years as the winter ice which is really one of the keys to the productivity of this area has is largely disappeared until how what has been the impact there been a lot of impacts and we're really scientists a lot from the federal Noah fisheries are still trying to unravel all these impacts but clearly there's been a huge surge of fish from the the South Pacific Cod pollock the didn't used to be they're moving into the area and that's had an impact on the whole ecosystem in this northern bering sea a sea birds are dying. There have been unusual mortality events for several species of seals that depend on the ice. There have been questions about whether or not the fish that are arriving here are eating up some of the food that the species that were already there depend on well. One of the scientists told you it's one of the fastest northward movements of fish he'd heard of anywhere in the world will link link people to your writing at here now dot org and also the pictures which are extraordinary and you quote an oceanographer who says of the whole Bering Sea as a scientist. I'm fascinated fascinated by it but as a human being I'm depressed. Why else is this depressing scientists so much well? The ice was a giant platform for producing a very nutritious algae that as the ice melted. It's seated the upper layer of the water with this very nutritious tristesse algae that was one of the foundations of the food chain in allowed this incredible productivity some of the biggest fisheries on the planet pollock and cod which are everything from fish sticks to Sereni to all kinds of products come from the Bering Sea. If the ice ice eventually as forecast from the impacts of climate change disappears for good they think there'll be a lot less fish that will come out the bering sea and that's because if the algae isn't there it will be less productive place. There are people who say oh that means we have new shipping routes you know because no ice but it sounds you know so dramatic what you're describing. I mean you'd think there'd be a bigger hue and cry about it well. It's there certainly are when I was in nome. It was amazing to see a cruise ships that go through both the northeast in the northwest passage one around the top of Russia the other around the top of North America making their way into nome and there was an adventurer was going out Lina sailboat to try to actually get as close as he could to the to the North Pole to trek across it so there there is that but yet there's is a lot of concern for example. The crab fisherman crabs seemed to be nowhere to be found they fish out of GNOME. It's important source of income for the small boat fishermen in the GNOME fleet and no one's quite sure did they move out because the water was so warmed at some of them get eaten by cod so it was just a bust of a season and I went out on a crab boat in the skipper was just so discouraged by what he found in his pots how Burton again with the Seattle Times most of us will never be where you went into the Bering Sea. We may be can't even find it on a map. But why do you think we should all care about this. This is just a planetary. We've resource. It's produces an incredible amount of food in part because the ISIS helped to sustain that production and we lose that ice we lose some of that productivity and these fisheries are really a a resource is that all the world's shares and for me who my kids were born in Alaska just coming back and getting a sense of that change was it was really amazing and I'm sure discouraging. Yes again will link you to house reporting from the Bering Sea Halliburton. Thank you so much thank you and here now is a production of N._P._R. And W._B._Z. aren't association with the B._B._C. World Service.

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Colin MacDonald - Filmmaker

Blackout Podcast

39:53 min | 1 year ago

Colin MacDonald - Filmmaker

"This is the blackout podcast. Hello Blackout podcast. Where I get to talk to amazing people that grammy using things. I'm today I'm finally finally be like once a month. Super Busy Guy was about Donald on the podcast. Thanks for thanks for having me on. Let's see what I knew you do. I know you edit. I know you dark. I know you're right. No Dad I know you brew. How do you make all these things were basically? I don't sleep it's no. It's I mean it's balanced right so it's Bruin is squeezing when I can. I have joint custody of my kids week on week off so the weeks that I don't have her I just try to know. How did you get into field? I hadn't a film. I mean I was always a moving toward I worked at. My first job was working on a blockbuster worked in retail for probably ten years ten more years to blockbuster worked video difference here in Halifax For a few years and then In that time after I moved back to Halifax I signed where I'm from originally from pick the county some from skeleton and I was there the Sohbi's please rate. Yeah the Soviet from there the wealthiest family from from victim. But yeah. I WANNA come back here so I moved with my partner. At the time and we she was going to jail. I went to see for the screen arts program so I did that from two thousand six to two thousand eight and then What lucked out is Doing that program get an internship. So I picked up A project with the local filmmaker and then about a year after that it was Donald Davies. She's done punch. Yeah superstar she is if you think. I'm busy Dutta under lockdown. But she if you can get her. She's amazing yeah. I did an internship with her. 'cause they knew in the horror horror films so. I did an internship on a project about women horror and did that for a month and then a year or so year and a half after that she had a documentary about Camby effects out of La and so she hired me on as a BA production. Assistant and supposed to be three months. And I worked on that for about a year and a half and that got me into assistant editing and working in post production and then just GonNa once you're into that contract and you contract. It's like well it just got to keep doing this. I kept rolling with Moving from project to project worked with a few more times and just wherever? What do you like about Edison? I'm a story guy I love storytelling. And that's why I kind of the writing directing editing. I've always kind of been my trove interests but that it's like your funnel rewrite so you get you get a lot of get a love involvement in storytelling earn. Ideally you do. How do you prefer working with dark? So it's like you do on them. Well what would your ideal approach when it comes made this film? How would you like to go? It can vary from project to project circumstances us. What would you like I mean if we're talking narrative like a fiction type person. I'd like some notes. Some you know that kind of circle takes you know indicating stuff to really focus on like some time to go through it with the script and just put what I think works together And then kind of get some feedback from the director and then eventually we worked together. But I mean I'm so used to working at this point on my own that I think one of the last things I did with Michael Muskie was a music video and he is a director around. Who's been doing twenty some years? A child remain. Yeah yeah that was his but he did a music video in the winter for Adam Baldwin. Look musician he started out with Matt. Mays and then was branching out on his own so they did a big music brought me on and it was the first time for. Michael in twenty years that he didn't sit down with the editor. He sent me notes very specific notes and takes and I put it together and I think I think we cut it in like two and a half weeks or something like that. Yeah it was a pretty tight. 'cause it had it had a lot of visual effects and had a deadline. You Walk on me Fox. You know went. It went to like it went to a proper. It was a lot of Driving means a lot of composite and stuff and they were Adam was playing two characters there a lot of like positive them into the same shot twice we shot it in December and I got the footage like end December and we were delivering it at the end of January and had to go through the visual effects and color correction in there as well so it was a very short but now it is. I can send you a link. It's on it's on Youtube it's call The song's called salvation. Oh the fun. It's kind of dark. Take on like The taxi driver concept like that movie where he's like it's about having kind of split personality type things but like there's an evil version. Yeah it's good though and it updates. It was like Dubar affects gaming. Would do ask but no? It turned out really well. It's pretty bad it considering. I was also working fulltime and doing so Muslim recording at night weekends. Yeah pretty much anytime. I could sit down at the computer and bang out some stuff but then during what I feel you mean for yourself first film out of film school. Yeah I did one really bad one. That will never sent anybody else. Gold is called Livingstone place. Originally originally it was written for one of those like forty hour eight hour film contests on I was the idea was like we the or they gave you some components to put into the film. And you have to do it so I signed up for that and planned on shooting it and then at the time my dad was ill and there was a lot of personal family stuff so we didn't shoot for the contest but then. I liked the idea now. Set like a couple months later we we went and did it but it was just like a home. Invasion creepy creepy slasher short with a lot of blood and tax But Yeah I don't really when two people it was probably my F- sorry you know I was. I was GONNA say probably my. I like short that you knows super proud of was one called presence that I had Glenn Matthews as local actor at the time. He was in hoboken shock on the corridor. Tons of great. Great Films We develop that with Donna Davies actually I don Davies Company for like a obligation with the CBC. They had a funding program for short. So we applied for that and didn't didn't get it but I came out of it and I finished my contract with Donna. Had the script. It was two characters in like two interior locations. And I was like I could do this like I don't need yes. I did. A bunch of hundreds and stuff. I raised about three thousand almost three thousand dollars on my own and then we went up. It was like two weekends in January. We shot we shot at a studio studios up on the road and then shot at friend's place on hydrogen for the other day. And it's about a guy who's it's all connected hearing I've sent you the link to it before but also your link because it's all about the idea of a musician inches hearing and then he taps into other creatures from another dimension and it's very like psychological but what why like almost actually. I don't oilfields. I've been horror thriller but why is that Genre? Your political goes back to being a kid. What am I? E earliest movie memories was probably in six or seven and sitting down with my family watching robocup which a seven year old should much remember being fascinated by the special effects and my parents really great about like explain it so I had as a kid. I had a healthy understanding of like these. Are that fed into my love of Halloween. And I was obsessed with Michael Jackson's thriller. I used to get my family. Rent may the Vhs which was the video and then making of Oh. God you know. I I. I don't know I was talking about ball but recently I was actually talking about that we saw. I said watching that things will meet me wants to make music videos. Actually because it was crazy absolutely no it was like to have that kind of I like behind the scenes. Look back and see the process. I actually kind of funny. Wraparound is my daughter's obsessed Michael Jackson thriller and so then found the making of on Youtube so we sat down and watch the video and the making of and it was just this moment where you know. I was like I was taken back full circle by there was that and then seen like Georgia Mirror movies like the living dead time all that stuff. It just it fed into my good. I was reading an article by him. And he's I one occur remote. The first one was actually based on a on a book and it was someone else's big like a well known author got bored. He didn't have permission to do that. So he kind of talk to the person and the passengers say it was okay because it wasn't going to make money on vast. I Wreck Board. But the problem is he dindo. You can make money like all these other ones all the time. Yeah it was actually the I am legend in your story. It's it's such a good book but yeah it That was a movie that was fastened. Because it would be on you like. I remember going grandfather's place around Halloween and it would just be on any random channel odd to me. It was like I was young. Enough is like this thriller like zombies breaking down doors like it was took me the Michael Jackson Video. Scientists head kind of combined themselves obsess. Yay zombies are still my favorite. So you've known me before though. I make us ambience. None that I'm proud was really funny actress through film school kind of going into it. I didn't expect it to make anything. That was creepy gruesome murder Zombie related. I end up making like three short projects that we're all like horror. Zombie related on the chat. I've been itching actually to do a proper Zombie. What did you think of a show? The walking dead. I've fallen off the bandwagon The last few seasons I was a huge fan of the comics Robert Kirkman had a really healthy appreciation of Georgia marrow. You know the modern Zombie. He's he's guy kind of birth that John Russo. Kirkman always had that appreciation and kind of approach is huge in the comics early on. And I'm on the show came around I was really into it because it was. You know well made and fairly faithful but still surprising but then yeah it around. It was funny actually around the same point in the comics like story wise that I lost interest in the comics. Same time that I lost interest in Michelle was some of the big communities getting. I don't know it Kinda was getting a little repetitive. Oh by people now we have to find you know. Is that vibe people. It's It it did good things but it was like how about Dawn of the dead the remake dollars in the mall. Yes actually really like outfield. I did do a little people's lose little good boy. I think department really socked me was ending like the credits right when you thought they were like devoutly escaped in the boats and then a decree to see like no no right right. No I am a van. That was a hard one going in though because the original is one of my favorite my favorite Romero's and it's just one of my top favorite films so going into remake. I knew I'd approach it knowing that they're not gonNA take Romeros stance that Like if you're think of when when it was made and how much of a commentary it is on like capitalism and you know this need to like consumed by and the fact is made in the seventies long before that was really a social thought right like malls weren't even a big thing that time and here's guy likes talking about how you know. It's not a great mindset to have and also for that ending of like you know you think they're alive from great the original the way it ends its so on the surface. It feels so happy when you think about it. You're like no this. Is there if you haven't seen it? They they're escaping them all and they have a helicopter and it's just as line where the main guy can freeze like you know how much field we have. And the woman. Who'S FLYING HELICOPTERS? Like not much and then they just fly off into the sunset twelvsies bugler brilliant an hour. They'RE GONNA they're helicopters going to crash not had a happy ending at all but yeah I love I love. I did love the remake too. It was it was an entertaining. It was one of these. Directors May Zach Snyder. You know what I'm like his fun really because but then I think what happens is when he makes his own stories than as a problem he takes a story that exists and he makes it is welcome. Great Yeah Boy. He makes his home stories. Like God I don't I don't know I'm not sure why no for sure. I think the big thing that dawn of the dead because that was one of his first bingo movies was The script was written by James Gunn. Who has gone under direct garden guardians of the galaxy now but he started out doing like schlock horror with trauma entertainment and New York like the cheapest. Just let me and like he has a lot of great like horror comedies and he has a you know his essentially the comedy on the timing he also has a sense for the Gore and scare so I think a lot of what worked in that remake was the script You get moments like Who's said not tight eggs who was the The guy whose wife was pregnant. Oh He's holding a Zombie like you can do the moment. That are so dark and I think that's you know James Gone. Just could go there and then still make it accessible for like a big thing. That's ever happened for me but I would be into it sure now. I don't know I'm not so you know I think about like fucking pay me a lot of money show. Yeah well I don't know I just do. Like don't you feel as a writer when you someone depresses is. GonNa Change just going to range. But I didn't see maybe I would have done that right. Yeah well you have someone scripts experience it was I recently. Did IT I've done it a couple of times now but this most recent one Kevin Hartford He and I have been friends for ever and then he kept telling me along. I'M GONNA give script I'm GonNa give you a script. I want you to on their mind like we should collaborate and and I don't know where he message make. I was looking at your movie poster for presents. My short by was talking about earlier I wrote this is weird but I don't hear go some reading and it's very very Kevin Hartford. You know it's kind of theatrical. Because he does a lot of plays as well and it's very much his sense of humor and I was like reading entertaining. That love his type of comedy as it. But I don't get where like my side of it comes in and then it gets to the end and it has a really dark and gruesome twist and I'm like okay. This is why it's for me so yeah we did that and it was a really great experience. Because I partnered up with An actress Brittany Kenzi. Who I've worked with a couple of times before but we just been itching to do more stuff and so I sent him the script and she got it right away and she came on as producer as well and You know we had a couple of great read throughs. And we wrote the scripts. I got to inject a bit of like some of my humor which I don't do a lot of comedy but I like working from Kevin Script has able to put in a bit more mine and Britney came really funny ideas and then it just translated really well because really smooth shoot and we had done so much crap that we just saw today is it's A. It's a two characters in their apartment So the premise is that they find out. I don't know where that their kitchen counter has. His supernatural ability to give them whatever they want so it starts out for them asking for like an apple and then they the stuff is building up until it. They accidentally asked for something that they shouldn't. It ends in a very gruesome due to the Special Effects Films off. I mean for that one. It was pretty like I designed it. Originally script called it for to be a lot more like to be more gruesome than win shooting. I've found ways to like all right. If we did this. We can minimize you know because the whole idea was like the kitchen counters giving presents to to to these roommate so we were able to wrap up the gifts that they gave so we needed a body that was covered in blood. I wrapped it up and garbage bags did but usually like on a bigger thing. I would bring someone on to help me with the same people or different views from. There's I mean I honestly. I haven't needed a lot of special effects in the last couple years. I've done a few more just dramas. Dark EMOTIONAL DRAMA. Siva needed a lot of special facts. Did if you music videos probably four or five years ago that need it some body parts and blood so there's a couple of guys. Yeah there's a couple of guys that I call on Troy Coker He he just loves to get. Actually I had a really. This is This was for that music video probably five years ago and I remember having a moment with him where I was texting or I went to text and text about something about needing a severed head. What was great. Was the response back was? I don't know who this guy is. But he gets a lot of interesting texts. He changed his number and I was just texted some random guy. But yeah something weird moments when you're like all right. We got the body parts. I remember what she in feely made a Kayla Flynn last year. Yup occurring title Nuisance THE MOSQUE. Where was the mice growth That was just a Halloween that I was buying and I kind of want to. Yeah I didn't have a great concept for Halloween costume. I usually make my own costumes and for whatever reason last year. I went to a Halloween store and saw this mask and jumped out at me and sounds like it'd be cool for Halloween costume and this could work for so it is really that whole project started is just like a makeup test. Really look on camera and then Brian Kaelin was Brittany. Kenzi was in it as well so that will thank him. I dislike improvising. We met on the day that we talked about you. Know what can we do? And we the whole smoking bylaw had just hit and You know we all kind of agreed like how how can idiotic. It was complaining about it and like just you know I'm not a smoker but even I recognize wasn't really handled So we just kinda bitch about that for a while and then kind of roll with the idea of like someone going out to fun places smoke and then any now somewhere Dr Sanders but then we had this creepy masked and the idea was that it was always stalking her Kayla was one wearing it and she was always in the background of every shot. So that was just a pure improvisers. Just the three of us I shot and then we brought home and I didn't like because we wanted to put it on for. Halloween may have really timely. So yeah it was just one little thing and never meant thanks. Yeah totally wasn't meant to be like anything you know. I enjoy major. Thanks appreciate it. So what are you working on now? Currently just wrapped up the for presents the short and that's off to a few festivals and keep working on getting trying to get into more. I got a few other scripts and I've been working a lot with Brittany kind of partnered up now. So do his do have like she's so you're like writing partners now sort of an producing partners. Yeah I mean producing partners I get how. How does that work? Do you write a section. And she writes a section or right now. It's a lot of my past scripts that I haven't done anything with yet that we have a couple picked out. That's like one that we know we could do with very little resources. We could bang like pretty easily It's two characters one location we're amp up some of the dark comedy in it and then I have a bigger script Which would involve. I need to start planning for some grants and funding for. Because it's just it's about a fifteen minute short but involves special effects and weapons and different things but yeah. I read that script It's called Hunters Orange Orange Orange. A group of people. No I mean it's around the idea of like the orange that you have to wear hunting but it's it's kind of like it's kind of like dark crime thriller but really centers around like a teenager coming into adolescence with his father. And while they're they're hunting trip across criminals in the woods who ends up killing his dad and he asked to to kind of survive and avenge his father. So it's Yeah it's really centered around that idea of like you know youth and losing a parent and that's the thing leg. Do good realize these. Yeah no in on like on those big screens. Yeah I'm a huge fan of like especially like more serious coen brothers like no country for old men simple. Those kind of like slow burn. Seventies Crime Oldman was curious. What what's his name the main villain bottom but I'm yeah. Yeah we he wanted most for our rule. I think so. Yeah Yeah Yeah. And that was one of his brain roles. He hadn't done a lot in America before that. I don't think that was free. Yeah well the thing. I love that in conversations I had with people were like. Everyone assumed it was Josh Brolin's character's story so then I mean I'll spoil this where people most people have me my ten years. It's been out testing. I Swat when he dies like two thirds of the way through. And it's so unexpected you don't even see it on camera. People pissed like people are angry. I'm like invested content. And he his. He hasn't meaningless death. Ask you don't see it so then you realize no. This was Tom Jones. Yeah the sheriff so you realize Oh. That was his kind of story. Yeah he he. He's not Weird Story. Was that what is was it. A Dreamy told his wife is the ending on something like he's just sitting on the dining tells us where anyway. Those guys always make weird films. Although I like the wound web brought Pete was Like a like a weird character. I think it was burn after reading. I was working at video difference when I came out and so many people. What what I love about that and their work is they have this ability to take kind of tropes of genre and then just like I remember. When we were going through film school we would look at like a classic version of a genre so we looked at a film film from nine hundred forty s and then you would look at something that was neo noir and we watch their first movie but simple and the whole idea was like how do they take the tropes of you know the classic. Genre and turn it on. Its ear so that you would have the towel who's supposed to be instigating everything and the main villain but in their version it's accidental. She's not trying to manipulate characters. Their interpretations of our actions caused them to do these bad things. And they're so good at that so burn after reading has the ending of it where he's like you know they're going through this crazy story of what happened and someone brings in this folder to J. K. Simmons in the CIA or whatever. And what did we learn? And he just closes his was pointless. This amazing story happens but there was no meaning to it and there was no message. You know thing learned is just pure people being idiots basically talking of that I mean a couple years ago UACC. Lisa is underway on on on stream cinema. Yeah Yeah it's one of those things that you don't I when I remember seeing the message out and broke because it was a great platform. It's something like doesn't really exists. Fisher. 'cause I'm one of those people that know Mario Blake. Even if I get to a stage where always make feature films? I'm always GonNa make short-sea short has its own. Language is so beautiful and you thought you does WanNa make out festival or show your friends and want to give it a place where he leaves on like. It's GonNa leave a Netflix or TV. Or so it was great. That happened before we talk about the demise. Let's go by. We'll meet you decide to do it. I mean I definitely had those similar feelings like I've been making shorts for almost ten years at that point and you know had various success festivals people see in it and kind of getting around but never like a real boom of like. Oh Shit check this out and kind of going viral or whatever so it was always an I love. I also love watching shorts and I would spend as much time going to video when searching the fines of quality as it would actually watching them so I was I. If there's somewhere that curates that for me and just a place where you can binge and the whole Miami. My whole thought was like this is perfect. Those you know that binge watching watch three minutes shorts and then maybe on the bus and then you get off you go about Your Day. You Watch a few more like to me. It made sense And it Kinda. The opportunity came up when I was. I was working for production company and a kind of wrapped up after like they wrapped up a lot of us after a year and a half so it was laid off and I was on a plan for the first time in my life and that opened the door to go through The Center for Entrepreneurship Development Lab Seed Program where you start a small small business What was interesting about that? It was a wonderful experience. You get a little bit of a living allowance from the province to start a business in. You got to do all these. You do like twenty five workshops at seed. What was what was interesting about that. Was like I was the only person starting a business that operated outside of like Nova Scotia again. It's a lot of people starting like landscaping business or like plumbers electricians like there's a lot of that or you know event planning and here I was like. I'm going to basically like Netflix thing. And I was never using that terminology like I'm going to be net flicks for short films but You know that's kind of what it was. So it was a law. It was a big undertaking for a small group of people with like you know just provincial. Lamb Small Nova Scotian support. But I did that. And then launched that and There was just. It was a mix of a lot of personal and small business things that Kinda made it harder to get off the ground than I kind of thought had a lot of opportunities and something I kept fighting for even though I wasn't making any it wasn't supporting me in any way it was costing me but there was a lot of opportunity that I saw so I kept pushing forward but yeah I mean it was a. Who's in big thing big undertaking? I mean so a year looking at restarting it or I could see it coming back in. Maybe a different format kind in the last since wrapping it up and kind of the landscape of streaming platforms. There almost seems to be a bit of a pushback coming from that. Format like subscription based like. It's still Netflix is obviously sticking around. But it's becoming very niche. It's almost like Net flicks probably in the next year to become very much like its own cable channel because all of this stuff being pulled off of it and they're just produce more content so you're paying fifty dollars for an excellent books though you're not getting that the original idea was you could have everything in one place doesn't exist. You'RE GONNA have to subscribe to net Flix Amazon using it like Disney Hill. These right blow well actually before we jump to that. I'm thinking like with all these guys. Opening up guest of Doganov four and like Disney. Joe is going to eat everybody. Yeah that's kind of looking into Disney. Disney already owns almost all of Hulu and then so it's really just WanNa plus one of whatever. It's called Netflix. Really Dan Netflix pigs. Okay so it's just GonNa be Disney on Netflix. Yeah I mean it's Kinda as someone who's come from you know working in video stores and seeing like it's weird to think about in my life. I've seen the home. Entertainment Industry Change so much. They didn't they can only started existing in the late seventies early eighties on. Vcr's and stuff came out so in my life. I've seen it go from vs VHS to DVD. Blu All of these formats and now it's in the streaming and it's what's interesting is to think about being curated from one or two main sources that whole idea especially once you get into digital like if net flicks sir. Disney doesn't want this film from twenty years ago. Where does it go? You know if they don't keep it on the servers and there's no other source like how does that I it just disappears and the like great films that could just stowaway completely disappeared scary I personally have been I mean I have not flex and I have just recently signed up for prime and use that SAMBA and I've been renting more than kind of curated my the movies that want to watch a movie nerd and I know what I want to watch. I don't want to just pick the best thing on Fox. And I've been reading a lot through cineplex or Google. Whatever you know or any stuff through just like curious. I don't like what I like. Because that's where my stuff is bull veal. I don't really like desktop peaks like I think I mean. Obviously it's going to be biased. Because he's a human being picking like maybe every ten stuff picks be one as really good summer. Jobs like preachy rolex. It's like trying to push something right. No I don't see I think the more the more I think the only short film please like the mommies onstream. I do any money. I mean it was a hard call when I had to shut it down. It was really just coming. It was my after my first year and I was having to resign. Some you know insurance and other bills and I I had just been I had just been laid off again unexpectedly and it was like this is a few hundred dollars a month that it was. I could be realistic like that. Could go to my daughter's education or something like that and I was like. I can't do it right now. It was just there was a lot of stuff going on in my life and I was like. It's not the right time to keep pushing this. So what steeds era now like is it all popped up somewhere and you can just press a button. Any combs icon or building from the ground up again. Should I mean it? I would have to renegotiate contracts with all the filmmakers for the rights. 'cause you know a lot of them what. I did because I didn't have a lot of financial investment in it and in that first year so what I would do a lot of time and I think maybe 'cause like you it. Yeah I think maybe we did it too but I do like. Give me a year to get the platform off the ground. You're non-exclusive because I was never like I never wanted to be like only exclusively here because yes that's not beneficial to anybody and for me. It was like shorts. Never GonNa be like that one title. That's exclusively on onstream is what's GonNa draw people in. It'd be more about having a great of green shorts so I think I would do. That's what I would say is like Gimme year get off. We can renegotiate a longer thing. So by now a Lotta. Those majority of those contracts have kind of kind of expired so that would probably be the biggest and that was honestly the side of it running. That was the hardest because I was reading the shorts so I was watching like watching submissions and going finding my seeking out stuff Is going cycling through the contact trying to figure out what would be a good fit? And then starting the conversation and having these contract signed and you know when you're looking for originally wanted to launch with twenty five hours of content that's three hundred or so on average three hundred short films such three hundred contracts you have to negotiate and sign and get back and get the materials from the film maker so it was just a lot of like it wasn't automated. It was just me managing Latte so that just ate up so much of my time but I mean the platform itself. I mean I used one originally signed up. It was a company called via checks. It was since out but halfway through Andrade by Demille But they create. It's kind of like it. Operates like a wordpress site. C You have templates and you can just go in and brandit how you want it. And they have the infrastructure in the background to stream the video and you just upload your content you pay for hours And then you upload the content and what was probably my biggest hurdle that never came and might have made a huge difference. Franz Dream was that I always early on my big marketing push was that it was going to have mobile. Apps. I wanted to have it on phones and devices because of this content is great to watch on the go download short films to your phone. Watch it and then go about your day And what was great about the platform? As using was offered a package. You could pay so much a month. Remember the exact numbers around fifteen hundred dollars a month. They would create your apps five apps it was like iphone apple TV android xbox and maybe roku another one Create that you manage from the website upload all the content and it would push out to these mobile labs and they would maintain it like any updates push those out to the all the APP stores and stuff and I shopped around and it was by far the best deal to get these APPs developed. But I obviously didn't have that much money like thirty thousand. Us A year or something like that. So I went to I try to everywhere. I could provincially and federally to get some support and it was weird wording thing it was APP so for Apps they see development banks. Don't loan to something. That in their mind might not be made a lot of the provincial. Funding doesn't do APP development. Even though like I went to a source that was it was all about market growth and pushing out Nova Scotian content. I have hours a no scotch dyke push out internationally. All I need help to do that is to get these. Apps to me was no brainer. But once you hear APP development. They're like now. The problem was and this is why. I talked about with my adviser at seed was like I wasn't actually developing the APP from scratch. They had the absence of the infrastructure of the APPS. Made law named exactly you. Just give them your brandon. They take a couple of months to put that in place and Lincoln your website. But you couldn't I couldn't. I never overcame that. I never got funding to help that and some of the some of the I won't get into the specifics but some of the responses I got back were pretty frustrating For these department like we want to support especially but not really calling. I'M GONNA end with this one had would advice. Would you give to someone you know? Wants to go out and make their own films who I mean I always like to be the you know the positive person. No matter how hard it's been at times over the years of like the best way to learn is just to do it and at this point you know in the industry like the access is just insane And I think that's the best like I. I love him school and I learned a lot of working in a professional crew from going through it but I also learned so much more just by going out making terrible terrible movies. Each one gets a little better and then eventually get one. They're like. Hey Yeah actually pretty bread of that one and then you kind of just you know and it takes time. You're not always going to be. That person who goes out there makes the chart goes viral. You know maybe chances are but then yeah just it. I mean the difficulty is getting people. See it so then. I you know. There's no magic formula to you know. Get an audience. So it's just a matter of keep trying and I think that's the best advice I have. Is I get up there and tell your stories and find interesting stories. Yeah thank you no thank you. I appreciate you having me on. This is the blackout podcast. Thanks for listening.

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Iran conflict shakes Washington

POLITICO's Nerdcast

34:42 min | 1 year ago

Iran conflict shakes Washington

"As long as I'm president of the United States Iran will never be allowed to have a nuclear weapon. Good morning hello listeners. Welcome to Politicos nerd cast. I'm Scott Plan your host this week on the nerd cast. We're GONNA spend a little time on debate preview ahead of next week's democratic debate. I know another one. It's going to be the last one before Iowa it's happening in Iowa and we're GONNA get into all the preparations around that right and what the Democratic presidential race looks like heading into those caucuses. But first we've got our foreign affairs reporter in the hall to see my face as an politico pro deputy defence editor Dave Brown and they are with us to bring us up to speed on death of Qasim Sulejmani the top up Iranian general who was killed in a US strike at the end of last week the ramifications in terms of foreign policy in terms of. What's what's going on at the state and defence departments and in the White House? The American people should be extremely grateful and happy knows some of the inconsistencies in the responses we've seen from the Pentagon and other American officials. We're going to dig into all of that in just a moment as always a quick make note that we are taping this on Thursday this week. That's January ninth. So if anything breaking happens after that we will talk about it next week all right. We're going to dive right in the hall. two-seat politico foreign affairs correspondent. Thank you for being here. and Dave Brown. The deputy defence editor for politico also anchor the morning warning defense newsletter. This is your nerd. CAST debut right is indeed thing having me. Thank you for being here. A lot has happened in now about a week. Since president trump ordered the strike against Kacem Sulejmani on January third and actually in the events preceding that as well the hall can you briefly take us through the beats that brought us up to this moment. Went and bring this discussion speed and really it starts in the most recent non non century version of this this history and the conflict between us and Iran. Right so I'm not going to go back all the way to nineteen fifty-three yet very recently. There has just been a Lotta audited for tot escalation Iraqi militias that are backed by Iran have been attacking basis where. US troops are housed. Recently an American contractor died died now the US struck at one of these militias killing some two dozen people and as and then there was the attempt by some of the supporters as militia. Shut to do a sort of takeover of the US embassy in Baghdad. That didn't get very far and then on the third the US well the second time. A junior second. Our time third in Iraq the US launched a drone strike that killed Very high ranking Iranian general. Simply money As he was visiting Baghdad and and this is a guy that the US considers a terrorist. They feel like has that they believe has been behind numerous attacks on on Americans And then of course you know. Iran furious several days of mourning. They respond with a missile barrage against basis Iraq that host. US troops no one undyed and president trump Took what the Iranians Kinda may seem like an offramp. He basically said we're going to respond respond with sanctions instead of military action. Now this is not over. We're getting indications that the Iranians plan other things so the escalation could resume But at the moment we're in sort of a plateau I think one thing that's really been illustrated over the last couple of weeks has been. What's how really dysfunctional the national security early decision making processes in this administration? And it's been like this from the beginning for a variety of reasons From ideological leanings to simply the fact that a lot of trump political appointees simply do not trust the career government employees they view them as a quote unquote deep state an BUREAUC- bureaucracy. I see that they just don't like so. There's been just tremendous amount of disconnect There have everything from the you know not enough meetings taking place to people who really need to know being left Out of the process and having to come up with Justifications and methods after decisions remain. So you know we don't know every single in and out of what led to solely money's killing and all this other stuff but when you look at for instance what happened with the letter. The Pentagon just said moments ago that widely circulated letter announcing that the US this was re positioning troops in Iraq. Because it had been ordered to depart by the Iraqi government was mistakenly released that was indicative of how the the decision making process. The notification process has broken down the letter. He says quote that letter is a draft. It was a mistake. It was unsigned. It should not have been released. Poorly worded employs withdrawal. That is not what is happening almost at a lower at a lower level almost at a granular the annual level. I usually cover the State Department in the system. We constantly hear about look. They don't Lupus in. I don't know that this is happening. Until the president tweeted about it which leads me to last point which is even if they worked to have a completely pristine national security making process Two things one is. You always have these weird side processes right that nobody necessarily knows about except for Rudy Giuliani. Who's doing his own thing or jared Kushner doing his own thing so even the classic process is has to deal with these other processes and then ultimately there's the president who himself with one single tweet can upend weeks and months of work back in trying to achieve an objective right and I think we've seen a lot of this? Just play out in just the past twenty four hours where you see all these conflicting reports from administration officials either during the White House or the Pentagon about How we're our forces warned in Iraq because you'll see people say well we knew it was coming Based on our sources and methods but there are other reports that Iran gave Iraq. A heads up which then turned did it to us But then general million secretary a Qatari asper said. I don't know we we knew it was coming and we actually gave Iraq a heads up or you look at the other issue about what Iran's goals because we saw stories play out saying saying the Iranians didn't really WANNA kill the Americans who were at Ala Saad in Erbil but then John Elway came down and said absolutely lutely. That is what they wanted to do. So we're getting into fundamental issues about what's been done. And what are the goals and you reach a point where it becomes very very very difficult to know who to believe and also the the reasons for why what has been done was done right. We've gotten into that with in in the immediate aftermath of of the strike against Sulejmani. Right they cannot get their messages straight on was he really an imminent threat. What does imminent mean? What exactly was doing they keep giving different reasons as to why Salih money who who has been killing Americans and planning to kill Americans for decades? Why did he have to go now? The Democrat Congressman from Massachusetts Seth Moulton when we came out of that briefing. He said he was watching. Espera pompeo sitting next to each other laying out the information he said even then sitting there they were not agreeing agreeing with each other and he said he was he was watching it. Just play out right in front of him. And then Dave in the midst of all this there was also a domestic reaction in Iraq. Doc There was there was a response to that from the Pentagon that Involved I guess what seemed to be a draft letter that was not meant for for release and a whole bunch confusing events so Monday afternoon. Maybe three or four DC time Social Media Pretty much lit up with a screen shot of this letter written by a Marine Corps Brigadier General Who's head of the task force in Iraq to his military counterparts there in the country saying we respect your sovereignty. We respect the The Iraqi parliament's decision to ask for the troops the troops to be removed from Iraq. We're going to begin that we're GONNA be It was I think they call it onward movement and there's GonNa be a lot of helicopters was flying around that's just preparing our forces but what was interesting was the the letter wasn't signed and I Defense Secretary Mark Asper and chairman of the Joint Chiefs General Mark Milley rushed down to the Pentagon briefing room not the Pentagon briefing room but the bullpen where they reporters czar because this was not an on camera briefing I to say we don't know what this is we. We don't agree with it. We don't really understand where this is coming from. And we our troops are not leaving Iraq. Right now we've not made a decision to do this. Then a few minutes later generally comes back down and says I just got off the phone with Journal Mackenzie head of US Central Command. He says it was a draft. It was just a draft. And he said what was happening was the Marine Corps. one-star was Kinda a sending it around To his counterparts and other people it was just one of those things where you coordinate a thought before you do everything officially and this was one of those now where it gets complicated and you see a lot of conflicting stories is some people said. He wasn't supposed to send said it to the Iraqi side. Other people said he was. People are asking. If we're not pulling out why would you even be sending this around. which is another big question? And then news came out that it was in the Prime Minister's office and they didn't like the Arabic translation actually sent it back to the US and it was recent Again and that is what they were taking as. This is a real thing so a day later. News comes out that the Iraqi prime prime minister is ignoring the secretary of Defense's statement to the media knee saying I'm not listening to what you're telling the press. I'm taking this letter as a real thing. He he set any said it was signed and we still don't think it was quite signed but there you can imagine there's a pretty massive disconnect there I mean the upshot of all this and as as you hinted at before Ah this this military action that that the US took at the very end of last week Enormous still unknown consequences. That were kind of trying to puzzle through about the. US relationship with Iraq the situation of a conflict between the US and Iran all sorts of things inbetween right. I mean it's like can intricately woven Persian rug over there. I mean really everything is connected to everything else so if you are going to upset the Iranians they have proxy malicious not just in Iraq but also in Lebanon also in Syria Several other places where the US has interests tests and or assets and they can activate them They also have cyber capabilities. They have all sorts of other ways that they can react and the US has increased its troop presence by what like twenty thousand now since May air depends on. Yeah and and that's on top of the many people we already had in various basis in the Middle East You know one of the things that struck me about how. How incredibly impactful? This decision to kill Hill Qassem Soleimani was was that it wasn't just that secretary. POMPEO was calling Arab allies like the Saudis or Or Israel we knew he would do that. He also called Afghanistan's leader he called Pakistan's leader They'll the even the Indians got had a conversation. And so this tells as you. This is way beyond just the Middle East terms of just the geopolitical absolutely so but before we go back to that day Dave I want to hear from you about Recent political story that You and your team were involved in about. I think what you called in our morning at Oriel meeting a few days ago that the Pentagon's credibility ability problem. Can you explain what you mean. They're having a disconnect between the White House and the Pentagon is not new for this administration began almost immediately and of course Over the first summer there was the big pronouncement about trump's transgender servicemember ban and with a lot of these things we if if you cover the Pentagon long enough you get used to this cycle where there is tweet or a pronouncement by trump and you call the Pentagon and they often say we don't really know anything more we'll try to get you something and sometimes it's what are you know right So there's there's nothing new about Pentagon people scrambling to explain what trump has done but something is it. Feels like it's hit a new phase in this seemed to begin around the early October when trump made the decision to pull the troops out of Syria End It's you had that you had the other episode with The clemency granted to the three service members who were either accused of or convicted of war crimes. And you had the issue of you know when we're sending troops over to Syria to guard the oilfields. Are we taking the oil. Are we keeping the oil or we just merely guarding it. So it doesn't fall into the hands of Isis and this becomes another revenue stream and more recently you have the issue where trump was threatening to bomb Iran's cultural sites which would be illegal So you put a lot of these things together and what happens is this forces the leaders of the Pentagon to answer questions about these and they're very very uncomfortable questions so what we note in. The story is You have top leaders like s per are end. Millie who either have to Kinda Dodge. When they're asked about it they either don't directly answer the question or there will throw it back to another issue or they will say I take this to mean something else I give you an example with the take the oil keep the oil situation in Syria trump very specifically said we want to take the oil and I think it was After the Baghdadi Radi said we ought to try to set up a deal with Exxon Mobil where we can do it. So Defense Secretary Asper was asked about this and his answer was well six and a half dozen the other. I take that to mean we have secured the oilfields and we are denying that Revenue Street. So enough of this happens. You have the difference between people seeing these disconnects between the White House and the Pentagon and saying sort of inside the beltway. Oh isn't that odd. We don't really see that to a bigger issue which is the Pentagon's credibility comes to the issue of when the leaders at the Pentagon speak. Do they have credibility. Is that with international partners partners. Allies Kurds Ore with maintaining good order discipline within the military with the war crimes or with the issue of what are we going to do with the oil in Syria or the cultural sites heights. That's that's the bigger issue that seems to be the face that we're in and it's obviously. The president of the United States is the commander in chief folks at the at the Pentagon take orders from him. But it's also a question of whether the advice and the counsel of senior military leaders is being heated that is correct and in the story we posted yesterday We quoted a senior Pentagon official in this was specifically about the The war crimes cases and trump's order to restore the navy seal Trident Pin Pinch Chief Petty Officer. Eddie Gallagher because he told the secretary of the Navy to do it there were some machinations that happened between Navy Secretary Richard Spencer and the White House he was forced out and then Espera restored that pin and he canceled the board. That was going to look at whether he should keep it. And the senior in your male military official told us how difficult it is to run the department when you give your best military advice in these are senior military professionals who have the experience to give good advice on this and I think the quote was yet. Trump is just gonNA listen to the loudmouths on Fox News it's it's demoralizing. Because you really you feel like you're not getting the you're not giving have the ability to give the advice that you need to give in those situations and yes Trump is the commander-in-chief and chief he absolutely has the ability to do this. But time and time again Whether it's the serious situation or the war crimes situation or The the bombing of the historical sites. There's a difference waited bombing of them. Read the mood at bombing that's right. He did backtrack and said he wanted to follow the law. which which is good? That's a good thing But with those issues is what was recommended by the National Command Authority to the president and is it being heated or or is he just gonNA lose to Fox News every time and on a related thread as as we're talking about the influence of of the senior your military leaders in the Pentagon. Here you've written about the growing prominence of someone you mentioned just a few minutes ago Secretary of State Mike Pompeo amidst all this you use essentially call them the secretary of the shadow secretary the defense. That's right I mean. Aside from the president himself POMPEO's easily the most powerful national security official in this administration. He has the nickname of being the trump whisperer but I actually think that's a little misleading. Because the idea is if you're like a whisper you can convince trump to do something but pompeo kind of he. He never shows any difference with the president in public in the sense. You always get from him. Is that Whatever trump ends up wanting to do trump Pompeo goes along with you. Bet So it's it's it's not quite the whisper thing But yeah he you know. Part of the reason that panel has become so so powerful Not only is is it because of his close relationship with President Trump but also And and the part of the reason that the relationship is good is because he doesn't contradict the the president in public Even if it means he stuff that's totally misleading. But the other reason Is is that there have been so many leadership changes in other areas We're on the the fourth national security adviser right. Flynn McMaster Bolton and now Ryan right I mean so other people have it's just there's just been laying vacancies And and and they're just not as as powerful as Pompeo is in his cabinet and Pompeo first off also you know he has a military background he went to West Point and Cetera et Cetera but he also led the CIA for a year so he also has a bit of that intelligence understanding screw point. Dave less word. Well the other thing that that That holly pointed out on Her story is theirs. While there's also the West Point background there's also the way he talks. There's a militaristic way of speaking. I think you mentioned that. He he says things like commander's intent and he's all over the Sunday talk shows but he's getting into the hyper specific military things things that you would expect to hear from the Secretary of defense about troop movements whether we're staying missile strikes and all those deal so when you get into the issue of the shadow defence secretary secretary. There's also The way he talks in his background and how he brings that to the table scrape point. Dave thank you so much for for taking the time to walk us through all this my pleasure. Thank you as well all right for part to this week. We're going back on the presidential campaign trail ahead of next next week's presidential debate we've got two of our campaign reporters here. We've got Zack. MONTEL RO author of Politico Morning Score newsletter. His AC Hey Scott and national political reporter. Holly Ali Autobahn are Bernie Sanders reporter joining on the line from Philadelphia. Hey Holly Hey Scott. Thanks so much for joining us. So let's start with the big news. Zack Judge Judy. The endorsing Michael. Bloomberg your thoughts biggest endorsement inside so the the the big news right now as we as we preview the debate. That's coming up next week. We're on the verge and the next day of finalizing the debate lineup. But it looks like it's going to be the smallest debate stage we've had yet this year coming up on January fourteenth tonight one. Yeah it might get one person smaller right now. Six candidates have qualified Joe Biden Pete Buddha Judge Elizabeth Warren Bernie Sanders Amy Klobuchar and a late qualifying. Fine Tom Star he qualified Thursday evening. You know a little bit longer than a day before the qualifying deadline close with two big surges or parents urges in Fox News Bowls in Nevada and South Carolina. And like. You said we've still got another twenty four hours to go after recording this Where the the qualifying window is still open so who you know there could be a bunch of other polls but as of right now Andrew Yang right looks like he's going to drop off the stage right now? Andrew Yang is at one of the four polls he. He needs to qualify for the debate. And we're saying about twenty four hours a little bit longer before the qualifying deadline closes We know opole coming out today. If you're listening to this on Friday from the Moines Register Mr but we don't know of anything else coming so it's a really tough climb for him to do it in the next day basically and now even one candidate dropping off the stage that over the course of a two two and a half hour debate with a lot more time for everyone else to to talk. It's a lot more time. It's a little bit closer to having the frontliners together on stage Tom Steyer frankly shocked me when he qualified for the debate. up until up until the moment the polls came out. I would have said he wasn't going to make it because he has seen no similar surge in the few early state. Polls we've seen out of New Hampshire an Iowa but he just landed with a huge splash in these two polls in South Carolina and Nevada in two states. That are maybe getting a little bit less attention. They're still getting some attention but where he's maybe had a little bit more of the environment to himself. We should wait and see you know. Hopefully we can get a few more polls there and the next week or two to to get a sense of whether this is real or whether this is an an outlier But so meanwhile so Andrew Yang kind of teetering on the bubble. We'll see over the next twenty four hours Cory Booker and tell C.. Gabbard probably making it members of Congress who have been in past debates likely likely very much so to miss the polling fresh hold and then you've got a candidate like Michael Bloomberg Judge Judy endorsement aside. Who Strategy is about not being on the debate stage? He's rich enough to do whatever every once in terms of the ways campaigning. But he's specifically not trying to meet the donor threshold Zach. Just how significant is this debate. All these folks who are going to be on stage together just a few weeks before. The Iowa caucuses. Well it could be big. You know we are basically in the real sprint. Between now and the beginning of March we have the four early states. And there's going to be a debate before basically every early state voting. This debate is coming. Two weeks before the caucuses. And it's really going to be the last time that these candidates have to try to distinguish themselves. Those top four candidates have really been locked. Both you know in these early state polling the few polling that we've gotten have been locked together and there's really not much separation is can they somehow separate themselves from the pack in these debates debate. Really haven't seen all that much movement polling wise immediately following debates this cycle it's in some gradual ebbs and flows for candidates. But if someone's going to try to push out and really try a push ahead it's it comes on Tuesday and of course I mean we saw more evidence of that today in a poll. Right you had the top candidate. I think Biden right at twenty judge. Buddha judge pardon me any judge at twenty percents New Hampshire. The bottom of the of the top four was warranted fifteen percent. That's not a lot of space and obviously sanders and Biden stuck in between holly that that kind of brings us to what we're expecting to see in the debate and I think in the in the past. We've seen the activities of the candidates in the week or two before. Each debate really really telegraph some of the major events. We've seen take place at those debates and this week we've seen Bernie Sanders really explicitly criticized Joe Biden's record in a way that maybe his campaign has been doing its emails and it's surrogate work and stuff but but Bernie Sanders. Himself has not focused as much on that of late. And it seemed really notable that he's Kinda turning on pick your metaphor turning it on Right now right before this. This final pre Iowa debate. Yeah he's been rolling out a series of new you critique of Joe Biden so for months now he's been hitting him on his vote for the Iraq war and his support a free trade deals. That's come up again and again at At these debates and other places and Biden has just repeatedly sort of ignored them and moved on and the debate moderators don't usually ask for a follow up and so the conversation just keeps on rolling What Sanders has done recently is at a critique on the bankruptcy bill and then also Biden's pass support for social security cuts or Keeping Social Security. Where it's at and so I am looking to see whether Dr Sanders again criticizes him on those particular issues? During the debate and weather Biden for the first time basically actually hits back get him. I'll be curious to see whether that happens. And it's really interesting that Sanders has basically saved up this critique over social security cuts until Oh now sanders is trailing by him pretty badly among senior citizen voters those that's the group that Sanders performs the worst with and his team is well Aware that he needs to do better if he wants to win the nomination with that group of voters that typically votes in high numbers and so they have not hit him on this this issue of social security until very recently until really this past week and so you know it's just interesting to see him save it for the weeks leading up to. It's the Iowa caucuses that is interesting and the other interesting thing that struck me about sanders critiques. which has aired and I think a couple of interviews with reporters now? He's not just criticizing Biden's record. He is using those criticisms and casting them as an argument. That Biden isn't capable of beating Donald Trump in November twenty twenty. It's an electability argument as much as policy critique. Yeah that's that's absolutely right. And he's been using some fairly strong language stronger than we've seen before out of sanders toward Biden saying that his record is weak and yes It's not going to excite people in the midwestern during states in places like Pennsylvania Wisconsin and Michigan things like free you know his support a free trade deals. Sanders says is a real liability in places like that That were critical to trump's victory. And so yeah. He is essentially trying to take on Biden on the area. Where Biden is the strongest longest in poll? After poll. We see that voters view Biden is the most electable. And that's really the main factor. A major factor sir behind him leading the national polls right now and sanders is trying to take a chunk out of that and it's interesting as well because interest interesting done a pretty good job when you do look at these polls although Biden is ahead of him in perceived electability sanders really hasn't fallen in perceived electability elect ability. His is a is a decent number at least if you look at like the YouGov economist polls that kind of measure it in a slightly different way than others they say. Is this candidate more likely or less likely to be trump. He does okay and warned has actually been falling in perceived electability. So you know this is this is is coming as Warren is falling in the polls falling and perceived electability sanders is trying to I think also capitalize on that and hopefully in in his campaigns interview takedown Biden's perceived electability a little bit which is is obviously his biggest strength of the holy the point you made about about sanders kind of his polling standing. Ain't just obviously it's moved a bit but it's it's kind of sat in this consistent range. It seems like well. A bunch of other candidates have moved around him a little bit. Obviously he's he's he's at this moment going toward the top end of the range of what we've seen during the campaign ZAC. What's the what else is kind of the general state of play? As far as we know in in Iowa New Hampshire nationally heading into this key. Stretch again with the caveat that you mentioned before that we really haven't seen a lot of early state polls of late. Ah Yeah so at least nationally. It's really been Biden and followed by Bernie Sanders followed by Warren found a little bit further back by Buddha judge. But it's kind over marketable. How stable the race has been you know when we look if you look at polls a year ago it was Biden Than Bernie Sanders Than Elizabeth Warren Of course people to judge was really a non factor when he entered the race because he was a mayor from South Bend Indiana that nobody had heard of so his rises. Remarkable in the interim Warren has gone up at it has fallen back to Earth but it's been a remarkably stable race you know nobody's really entered and then left the top four. It's been really three. Candidates Biden Buddha judge. Warren you know maybe Kamala Harris at some point in time kind of battling it out and these. It's possible that these early states aren't as determinative. They have been in the past if we hit a situation that four four candidates walkway with delegates in Iowa. Four candidate candidate delegates New Hampshire meaning they get about fifteen percent support. That's kind of almost unprecedented. And it really doesn't clear the field at all like it hasn't in past cycles. We might not clear the field. Yeah so I want to close out the segment here. I want to ask you both to just kinda take us through something. You're looking for in the next debate. All although I actually like kind of piggybacking off this lack of polls we've seen it's a little difficult to tease out where the momentum uh-huh and the movement is right now since the previous debate we you know I I think it there were some important moments in there and we saw certainly there were important moments. That moved that nudge the polling holing up and down for different candidates in past debates. But just because it came right before the holidays. We really don't have a sense of whether Pete Buddha judge has continued to rise or if he's Kinda tailing off a little a bit whether Warren is continuing to decline or if she has arrested that might who knows might be back on the upswing from from a low point at this point clearly it seems the Biden Sanders are Seem to be doing better and has have as a result started to clash a little bit. But I'm curious how That interplay will will kind of play out in the debates and whether we're going to see some moments in there that we expect to reflect in in the last stretch of polling that we get Between January fourteen February third. The date of the Iowa caucuses holly. What's What's on what's on your plate? What are you looking forward to to finding out at the debate? Well well I guess I mentioned it earlier but it is what I'm looking at. which is you know? Does Sanders really hit Biden on social security and then just Biden respond. John I mean he just again he really has not gone after Sanders which is interesting because he's responded to other candidates when they've critiqued him onstage even candidates. It's that are in the second third tier like Tom Star. He's comeback really strong at them when they go after him and so I will be curious just to see whether Biden does that and then if sanders can do anything to just grapple with this problem that he has among older voters is he able to make the argument. That Biden is not it does does not have the policy record. That's good for senior citizens citizens and that sanders does it. I think you know my gut feeling is that. It's GonNa take much more than one debate to do that. And so while it's interesting and kind of make sense in a way that he saved this criticism until the end. He's just so far down in the polls among seniors I will be interested SOC- whether it makes any movement he doesn't need to win among them but he certainly needs to do a lot less poorly then he's doing and Ken. He kind of brought an out that criticism. This is on and maybe also with it you know talk about his policies for seniors in a way that makes them more of them. Come to side ride. Great Point Zack. I'm watching assuming the lineup stays the same and I think it will. I'm watching to see what the two women on stage do. I Warren Our colleague Alex Thompson reported Warren is moving away from the wine cave that she's not going to go after people to judge as she did in the last debate over fundraising over stuff like that. That warrants kind of returning to. What got her success in the the first place that anti corruption message that on here fighting for you? I'm here fighting big money. I'm here fighting the banks So far that's what Warren is trying to do on the trail. She's doing more national national media recently trying to get out her anti corruption message and then watching on Ab jars. Doing it feels like four points at the last debate. In December amy which are really controlled the pace of the stage. Yeah yeah she was definitely the most aggressive candidate out there and has been rewarded in the very very very limited polling. We've seen we've seen trickle up a little bit to that mid single digits. That's not a lot that doesn't put her into the I hear. She's basically established herself between the front runners and the data but it gives them a chance but she hasn't kind of joined the right the top four. So does she get intend to do that yet. Does she continue to do that. You know come Tuesday issue finding everyone on stage again. She wants her tactic And where did she go in the polls so that's no watching for all right that that is a that is a good one to watch. I'm very curious what she and people to judge at the same time. Friend Zach. Thank you so much for joining us saying he's got and holly thank you as well great to be here. Thank you and as always a big thank you to our listeners for tuning into our show this week keep an eye out next week. We're going to have a special debate show as usual. Usual breaking down a key moment from the January fourteenth democratic debate in Iowa. And of course we're also GONNA keep tracking impeachment for you as of Thursday speaker. Nancy Pelosi she still hasn't delivered those articles of impeachment to the Senate but a Senate trial is expected to start soon. Maybe over and that will probably be soon. When that happens we're going to have special episodes ner cast on that for you as well our producer? This week is our senior producer is Johnny Almond Ariella. We'll straighter is bill cookman. If you're listening on apple podcasts please do us a favor and leave a review. It helps new listeners. Find the show once again. Thanks for tuning in talk to you again next.

Joe Biden Pentagon President Trump US Iraq Bernie Sanders Iowa Dave Brown secretary White House president Iran Espera pompeo Elizabeth Warren politico New Hampshire Pete Buddha Zack Judge Judy Baghdad
Full Episode: Sunday, May 5, 2019

This Week with George Stephanopoulos

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Full Episode: Sunday, May 5, 2019

"Hi, I'm Brad milkey from ABC news and want to tell you about another podcast that I host called start here. It's every weekday morning and in twenty minutes, we will get you teed up for the stories. Driving your day with context from experts with on the ground access, so start smart and subscribe to start here. Get cashback anytime anywhere in the rackets inap- racket in is a free member base. Loyalty program that lets you earn up to forty percent cashback on shopping it over twenty five hundred stores simply shop online, and you'll earn a percentage of every purchase you make every three months. Members will be paid in the form of a check or the pay pal. Sign up today at racketeer dot com. That's our AK U T E N dot com. This week with George Stephanopoulos starts right now show of force North Korea. Fires of barrage of projectiles into the sea of Japan. It's North Korea's most significant military test in more than a year. What's behind Kim, Jon loons, provocative move and just the power struggle in Venezuela. Intensifies? Did America's support of opposition leader, one Guido and attempted military uprising backfire we asked the president's top diplomat secretary of state might Pompeii. Oh, and on the trail in Iowa doing this. Bernie Sanders is picking a fight with the new front runner. Joe Biden say that he is the most progressive candidate in this race as amounts his second presidential campaign. What do you say to those who say it's time free new generation of leadership and one issue where Bernie Sanders actually agrees with President Trump? This is one area actually where I do not fall from Joe Biden has entered the races the early front runner Sanders, a close second. But with more than twenty candidates can a self described democratic socialist find a path to the nomination those questions and more in our exclusive interview with Bernie Sanders, plus the latest insight in analysis from our powerhouse roundtable. From ABC news. It's this week here. Now chief White House correspondent Jonathan Karl. In morning and welcome to this week. It's been a big week on the campaign trail as Joe Biden, his in an already ahead of the pack. We shaping the twenty twenty campaign, but Bernie Sanders is not far behind and portraying himself as the true progressive in the race and Sanders isn't shy about taking aim at Joe Biden's record. We caught up with Sanders in Iowa where he received a rock star. Welcome at the demoing farmers market. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We'll have that exclusive interview shortly, but we begin with what's been a challenging week in American foreign policy over the weekend. New provocations from North Korea as Kim Jong UN personally oversaw, the country's most significant military tests in over a year launching a barrage of projectiles into the sea of Japan. And while the US has yet to confirm the type of projectile tested. The move raises questions about Kim Jong UN's willingness to negotiate a nuclear deal with President Trump and here in this hemisphere, a failed uprising in Venezuela. The Trump administration recognized Venezuela's interim president opposition leader one Guido over three months ago, and has actively encouraged guidos challenge to President Nicolas Maduro this week urging members of Medeiros inner circle to defect. But after why does call for a military uprising went d'oro is still in power. Let's get right to it. All. With secretary of state Pompeo mister secretary. Thank you for joining us, Jonathan it's great to be with you. So let's start with North Korea. What what have we learned about? What exactly what kind of projectiles? The North Koreans were testing. So we know a couple of things one there. No point was there ever any international boundary. Cross that is they landed in the water east of North Korean didn't present a threat to the United States or to South Korea or Japan. I would know that they were relatively short range and beyond that, we know they weren't intercontinental ballistic missiles either and beyond that, I'll leave the department offense to characterize this when the further information arrives. So you're one of the precious few Americans. There's actually spent time with Kim Jong Nunu arguably known better than any other American what what's your read on this? What what kind of message was he sending with these tests? Well, we Jonathan we still believe that there's an opportunity to get into Goshi. It it outcome where we get fully verified denuclearization. Chairman Kim has repeated that he's repeated that quite recently, in fact, so we hope that this act that he. Took over the weekend won't get in the way, we want to get back at the Ted. We want to continue to have these conversations. The sanctions the global sanctions put on put in place by the UN Security Council. They're still in place. And so the pressure on chairman Kim to continue down this path to to achieve the outcome that every watch remember these place, this attack took place are the excuse me, these launches took place just after he met with Latimer Putin. Right. So clearly chairman Kim has not yet been able to get precisely what he wanted. But we hope that we can get back to the table and find the path forward we're we're further along than we were a year ago. And we hope we can can continue to make progress. Kim's clearly frustrated by the fact, he hasn't gotten anything back yet from from the United States as you mentioned the sanctions are still in place. And he's now set this deadline of the end of the year to basically for the US to show flexibility. Do take that deadline seriously, a serious situation for sure and we've known that the Pat the fully verified denuclearization would be a bumpy and long one. As for the deadline. We we want to get back and begin to have these conversations. I don't know that there's anything particularly significant about his statement at the end of the year. We're watching closely the North Korean Baber as our allies Japan and South Korea in the region. We still believe there's a path forward. It was reported after the summit that the president had had reached out to Kim there'd been communications to the North Koreans. Have we heard anything back as the president heard back anything from from chairman, Ken and want to get to the exact nature of the communications that took place. But yes, we've communicated with North Koreans post to Noyon, and we hope that that can be come in the coming weeks become even more robust communications where we can really have conversations about how the path will move forward. So you have heard back. Oh, yes. So the president had this response on on Twitter to the tests. It was a little different in tone than yours. He said, I believe Kim Jong Hoon fully realizes the great economic potential of North Korea. And we'll. Do nothing to interfere ended. He also knows that. I am with him. And does not want to break his promise to me deal will happen. Why is the president so optimistic about getting a deal with with Kim Jong Hoon Jonathan that doesn't sound any different from what I've said here this morning. I to believe that there's a path forward that we can achieve this outcome. Look, there's a UN report that came out on Friday fifty percent of the North Korean population at risk of significant malnutrition that is it's a very difficult set of conditions there. We want a brighter future. That's why the president continued talks about this. It's important. They need to understand that if these nuclear weapons go away, it will be of an enormous benefit to their country and keeping them just continues to post risk you. You mentioned the the famine it is the US considering any steps to maybe lift sanctions to get humanitarian support in anything to to to deal with that famine, which is supposed to be the worst in a long time. So you'll recall Jonathan that there. It's permissible for Hume. Unitarian assistance. That is the sanctions permit the North Koreans to purchase food products. That's why when I say things like happened on Friday night, where the money could have gone to taking care of his own people. It's it's so unfortunate. There were reports out of out of the region that after the Hanoi summit several of the people that you were negotiating with that were part of that negotiating team in Hanoi were executed to we believe those reports are accurate, John. I don't have anything to add to that for you this morning. But there's there seems to be some kind of a shakeup of of of of his team over there. It does appear that the next time. We have serious conversations that my counterpart will be someone else. But we don't know that for sure just as just as President Trump gets decide who his negotiators will be German Kim, we'll get to make his own decisions about who we asked to have these conversations. I I want to play you something that Cindy warm bear had to say, she's obviously the mother of Ottawa Mbare who died after being imprisoned in North Korea. I she made an emotional appeal to keep up the pressure. Take. Listen. North Korea to me is the cancer on the earth. There's a charade going on right now. It's called diplomacy. How can you have diplomacy with someone that never tells the truth? So from everything you have observed here, do you really think that Kim Jong owners negotiating in good faith. First of all, I've come to know, the warmbier family and Cindy in particular is an American warrior. She's a noble, wonderful gracious woman. And so the tone in her voice that sound that voice. I have enormous sympathy for MacDill mistake. The United States continues to apply pressure. The UN. Sanctions are continued to be enforced were expending. A lot of energy to do that. We think it's simply important that we play out every diplomatic opportunity every opportunity we have to have these nuclear weapons depart and verify that without the use of force. We think every effort to be made in that, and we continue to work towards that. But, but but go back to the president's tweet responding to these tests the line that stuck out to me was he says, I'm with him. I'm with him. What he's saying about Kim Jong you toward what Cindy warm beer to say about Kim. John is one of the most brutal dictators in the world. This is a is the presidency. I'm with him. This is a president who was put on the toughest sanctions in the history of the world against North Korea. President understands the challenges the president deep deeply understands this and we are working towards finding a path forward with German Kim to denuclearize come to country. Diplomatically, you recall, the beginning administration where presence spoke about fire and fury. We understand all the challenges. We know we know who the North Koreans are and we're working to see if there's a possibility before we go another direction wanna see if there's any possibility we can achieve this outcome. It's very straightforward. Okay. Let's turn to Venezuela. Daschle security visor John Bolton suggested earlier this week that Madero was about to fall openly called for members of Windsor owes inner circle to defect but opposition leader one Guido knowledge yesterday that he miscalculated the level of support. That he thought he had within the Venezuelan military. Was this an intelligence failure for the United States? Oh, no, not at all. This is the Venezuelan people attempting to reestablish their democracy. The United States has joined with them. We've supported the national assemblies choice. One though, it was the interim president of the country, and as you know, these these things sometimes have bumpy roads to be sure but Madero camp feel good. He he's ruling for the moment. But he can't govern. There's enormous poverty. Enormous starvation sick that can't get medicine Jonathan this is not someone who can be part of Venezuela's future. And whether that change takes place today or tomorrow or a week from now one can't predict our mission is to work with a large coalition now fifty countries, plus who are determined to restore democracy. And then ultimately productive economy to Venezuela. You said today tomorrow or a week from now. So you're saying this is imminent could be two weeks before weeks. It's not going to months going to be a year. What what we can do? Is provide support get support from the organization American states, the labor group the entire region that understands that restoring democracy for the Venezuela people is an imperative and get them all to work together. So that we get the outcome. We're looking for Madero still be in power. If you didn't have support from the Cubans and from the Russians without the Cubans. There'd be no possibility was still in power. They are there at the center of this. Indeed is the Cubans who are performing the security cordon for Madero today. They're everywhere around him. He doesn't trust his military. You said they military hadn't come across while the leader of the intelligence service. Sure left. So there's a lot majo- cannot feel good about the security of his position today, and he shouldn't because events Waylon people will demand alternately that he leave. You said the Cubans of the Russians Russia the Russia's need to get out to president tweeted, very, clearly he said the Russians must go. We want every country Arana's in there today with a need to leave as well. Every country that is interfering with the Venezuelan people's right to restore their own democracy needs to leave. I want to play you what the president said about Vladimir Putin and what Putin told him about Venezuela. He is. Not looking at all to get involved in Venezuela other than he'd like to see something positive happened for Venezuela. And I feel the same way. But but wait a minute. What what does he mean the Russians? The Putin does not want to get involved in Venezuela. Aren't they already deeply involved in supporting Madero? The president has said that the Russians must get out. I'm gonna meet with foreign minister Lavrov in a couple of days, we'll have more conversations about this. The objective is very clear we want the Iranians up we want the Russians out we want the Cubans out. That's what has to take place in order for Venezuelan democracy to be restored. It's very clear. I don't think anything the presence that is inconsistent with that. But wait a minute. You said that Madero was on the plane ready to to leave and to flee for for Cuba. And it was the Russians the told him to stay in the president is saying that Putin told him that he's not looking to get involved in Venezuela. Does the president not realize what you have said publicly in? What is obvious that Putin is deeply involved in Venezuela? I mean, what what does he mean when he saying he's not looking to get involved? I I didn't see the full context of the quote there. I don't know what context that was said, and I do know. This. The president has made clear we want everyone out of that includes the Russians so you were at the Pentagon going over military options on Friday with the president's national security team. I know the line that you've said the president said everybody has said all options are on the table. But is a US military invasion of Venice. Well, really an option. Oh magnolias ticket. We have a full range of options that we're preparing for. That's part of what we were doing on Friday was making sure that when this progresses and different situation rises at the president has a full scale set of options diplomatic options political options options with their allies. And then ultimately it set of options that would involve use of US military were preparing those for him. So that when the situation arises, we're not flatfooted does the president believed that he can intervene militarily without getting congressional authorization, and I don't want to speak to that the president has full range of article to authorities, and I'm very confident that any action we took in Venezuela would be lawful I want to get to know their thing that the president mentioned about his call our long call with Vladimir Putin on. He said that he believes that Russia will not interfere in the twenty twenty elections. We heard, you know, a different message from from from Bill bar in his Senate testimony. We've heard concerns obviously from the intelligence community. The on this. What why does the president remained confident that Russia will not try to do it? Again, been part of this administration for two years. Now, we have worked diligently to protect American America's election system. Something I wish the previous administration had done more. Effectively. We had pretty good success in two thousand eighteen the department homeland security's talked about that, and we continue to be very focused on that not only Russian interference. We don't want the North Koreans interfering in our elections. We don't want the Iranians we want to protect and preserve our election system. So that we can continue to have high confidence the election outcomes that we get we're determined the president's done more on election interference than any previous president. We're very proud of what we've accomplished their Jonathan the president seems to be suggesting that these ready for a new kind of phase of his relationship with Putin. Now that the Muller report is done. Or are we going to see there's been talk of a someone is going to be a a Trump Putin summit on on the horizon in are we entering a basically a new? Phase. I hope we are. I I'm gonna meet with foreign minister Lavrov all then be traveling the week after that to continue the conversations, we truly do hope we hope we can find places where we can have overlap in our interest. When I was director. We're able to do that we worked with the Russians on counterterrorism to keep Americans who were traveling in the world a little bit safer, and frankly, help Russian citizens who are travelling the world to be a little bit safer to. I think it makes perfect sense that any place we can find we'll have overlapping interests, we work along with the Russians. There's some it. I don't know. We'll see one more question before you go would ask you about climate change. You said recently the climate change is not in the top five national security challenges facing the United States. We we've heard the national director of national intelligence talk about climate change fuelling competition for resources economic distress and social discontent. We heard the Pentagon warn about climate change where do you put it? If it's not the top five national. Threats where do you put it? So I can't I can't write it. But I can't tell you exactly which number. We we wanna make sure that all the outcomes that are possible. And that includes 'climactic change that we're we are sure that our national security as a secretary state. My job is to make sure our national security is never way or excuse me. Never wavers. That's what we'll do the Washington Post reported the State Department tried to strip any reference to climate change from the statement for the Arctic policy head of the summit. You're going to be attending this week. What what what are you doing specifically to address this threat or or do you? To take it particularly serious Jonathan this. The this administration takes keeping Americans safe keeping our drinking water pure, keeping our air clean, very very seriously. What the debate is about in this document. You're referring to is about the Paris climate agreement. We we don't think that that has any hope of being successful. We've seen it we've seen America reduce its carbon footprint while the signatories, including China haven't done this to sign a piece of paper, Jonathan it's interesting and fun, and you get to cut a piece of ribbon and have a big Fudd up. But at the end of the day, the world's no safer. This administration has focused on doing the things that will allow our economy to grow. And you know, this country's with high per capita GDP always have cleaner air, safer drinking water. It's it's a virtual certainty. That health is improved for citizens around the world is a commune grow. We're determined to do that. We hope other countries will follow our lead, and they can have historic fifty years lows in their unemployment is while the these are the things that will keep Americans safe. It's what President Trump is focused on secretary Pompeo. Thank you for joining us here to be with you. Appreciate it up next. Our exclusive interview with Senator Bernie Sanders. He's back on the campaign trail in Iowa picking up right where he left off for years ago leading up progressive movement. He hopes will propel him to the democratic nomination where one on one on the trail in Des Moines. Better help offers licensed professional counselors specialized in a wide array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief connect with your professional counselor in a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com slash this week fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love simply safe is award winning home security that knows it feels good to feel secure in your home blizzards blackout burglars. Simply safe protects you through it all twenty four seven try simply safe with free shipping and free returns. You'll get a sixty day risk-free trial to order now. And have your home protected within a week? Go to SimpliSafe dot com slash now. To get started today that simply safe dot com slash now. Be sure to visit the site. So they know we sent you get cash back for shopping. You were already going to do racket in is a free member base. Loyalty program that lets you earn cashback on shopping it over twenty five hundred stores like Macy's best buy Nike and more. Shop online internet percentage of every purchase. You make up to forty percent cashback every three months members are paid the pay pal or another method. Sign up today at Rockhampton dot com. That's our A K U T E N dot com. Thank you. Say name recognition. It's not a problem with him. I don't think. So thank you very much. Big crowds for Bernie Sanders in Iowa this weekend when Sanders jumped into the last presidential campaign for years ago. He was the longest of longshots by the end of that campaign. He was the leader of a National Progressive movement that nearly toppled Hillary Clinton. Now, Bernie Sanders is picking up right where he left off. He's on a first name basis with Iowa Democrats and this weekend, the one time long shot looked like a front runner we caught up with him just outside the big farmers market in Des Moines. I started off by asking him about the issues. He believes will animate this race. I think there is a profound anger at corporate greed pharmaceutical companies make billions in profits in one out of five Americans cannot afford the medicine, they need insurance companies pay their CEO's outrageous levels of compensation, you've got thirty four million people who have no health insurance. Many people cannot afford the deductibles co payments when the go. To the doctor fossil fuel industry makes billions of profits while they destroy the planet. Wall Street makes prophets and they're charging people seventeen percent interest rates on their credit cards. I think people see the rich getting much much richer and the level of income and wealth inequality increasingly dangerous from a moral perspective. And from an economic perspective. I'm sure you saw Joe Biden say that he is the most progressive candidate this race. Well, look Joe is a good friend of mine and not here to attack show. Joe voted for the war in Iraq. I led the effort against the Joe voted for nafter, permanent normal trade relations trade agreements with China. I led the effort against that. Joe voted for the deregulation of all streets. I voted against that. You know? I think if you look at Joe's reckoning look at my record. I don't think there's much question about who's more progressive you famously said of Hillary Clinton during the last campaign. I disagree with Hillary Clinton on virtually everything. Would you say the same thing about this early in the campaign, but you've known by a long time? I disagree with many of the votes that he cast the, and I voted in very different ways. I have stood up for the right of people to have health care because they're an American citizen. I don't think that's Joe's position when I do want to say Jonathan is that I hope on the democratic side that what the campaign is about is a discussion of issues not personal attacks. I think I can feel safe to say that no matter who the candidate is we are all going to come together to defeat the most dangerous president in modern American history. And that is Donald Trump. Well, one of those issues, obviously as your proposal for Medicare for all a Biden says that he would like to see more incremental approach fix ObamaCare provide a Medicare option for anybody. But allow people to still have. Some have private health insurance. If they want white why not do an approach like that. I'll tell you why. Because the system today is is truly dysfunctional. We are spending twice as much per capita on health care as the people of any other country Medicare right now is the most popular health insurance program in the country. But an only applies the people sixty five years of age or older all that. I wanna do is expand Medicare over a four year period to cover every man woman and trial in this country. But to do that you would eliminate private health insurance full basic needs. Yes. So what do you say to the firefighter in Iowa who has a health plan that they like what I would say is that if you want a better program a more comprehensive program with no deductibles with no copayments with no premiums, which will cost you a family less support Medicare for all. But there are some trade offs are people going to be able to see the doctor can guarantee make that guarantee up saloon. Vomiting you'd be able to keep your doctor. Absolutely. Look the truth is right now, you may have an insurance plan that the doctor you really like is not on that network. What would if everybody wants to see Dr Sanders here in the morning, and there's more people that have the same problem there? Copulate offs though. Right. But that's look if you have a popular doctor right now on the current policy. It may take you a while to get in there, but under Medicare for all freedom of choice with regard to doctors with the hustle substantially lower prescription from costs. We cannot defend John. In fact, we cannot sustain a system in which the cost of healthcare continues the saw. So we have more economic numbers came out this week jobless rate hits a fifty year low so unemployment is down in for the first time in a while. We're actually seeing wage growth Donald Trump the one area that he has a solid approval rating on his handling of the economy. Fifty six percent does does President Trump deserves some credit for the fact that the economy on multiple measure seems to be doing quite well the economy is doing well. And I'm sure I don't have to give Trump any credit. I'm sure he'll take all the credit that he wants. But we should also know is the what you're looking at is a ten year, rebounding. From the Wall Street crash of two thousand and I do not believe that Trump's massive tax breaks for billionaires is the cause of the good economy. But when you talk about good economy and follow me around here in the moment. Talk to the workers who are making nine dollars an hour. What ten dollars an hour? The truth is that half of the people in this country today despite the good economy, a living paycheck to paycheck and millions of people are working two or three jobs just to put food on the table. So under your economic plan who pays more taxes. I mean, obviously, the billionaires millionaires, but who else set up different policies. But basically when you have the top one percent in America owning more wealth than the bottom ninety two percents when the very very rich are becoming phenomenally richer and doing incredibly, well when you have companies like Amazon Amazon paid in taxes last year owned by the wealthiest guy in the world pays zero in federal. Income taxes. That's insane. So yes, we'll pay more Basil's is going to pay more. But who else where do you draw the line to somebody making one hundred thousand dollar family making a hundred thousand dollars a year? Pay more faintly. Gives them in. For example. We are going to expand benefits on social security, and we're going to do that by raising taxes lifting the cap right on people making two hundred and fifty thousand dollars almost certainly going to raise corporate taxes and do way with these tax havens with the wealthy and large corporations station their money in the Cayman Islands, so look at a time of massive income and wealth inequality where the average American worker today. This is incredible is making a few cents an hour more than he or she did forty three years ago while the people on top doing incredibly, well, yeah, we're gonna ask the people I've talked to stop just short. But where we have multiple it depends on what you're looking. We have a corporate taxable working at we have a personal income tax. But at the end of the day, we cannot continue this grotesque level of income and wealth inequality that currently exists last time around you said that you were the only candidate in the race willing to take on the billionaire class is that. True now. Well, I think Elizabeth Warren is a very good Senator, you know, my views different than a lose Liz abyss on this that issue, but she's certainly progressive candidate. Why are you a better choice for progressives? And Elizabeth Warren, I well, I'll let the vote is the side that you're going to have to deal with it. Yeah. But not right now. I mean, Elizabeth is is a friend of mine. She's a serious candidate. She's a good candidate. We have differences. We realized things let the voters sort out Biden is called himself in Obama, Biden democrat would would you embrace that, you know, Brock. Oh, Bama was a very very good president. What grade would you give a mucketty great Brak Obama look compared to the guy you have in the White House now and give them any. Plus Trump seems to want to run against you. And certainly he wants to run in Republicans want to run against socialism. Okay. Is it time for you to disavow that that label? The problem is on television interview. It's hard for me to describe indepth. What we mean by that when social security was. Created. What did the Republicans called socialism? Anytime you do things for the people, and you stand up to the wealthy and powerful you'll be labeled this that. And the other thing all this label you and all of the issues that we are talking about he's our ideas than one form or another are in fact supported by the American people. So I've heard from several of your opponent's talk about the need for a new generation of leadership. So what do you say to those who say you've been in Washington for twenty nine years? You've you've fought for these issues. But your time has passed. It's time for a new generation is what the vote is the side. Okay. I mean, I will not criticize my opponents for not having a whole lot of experience that would be wrong. But the voters the side. I'm proud of the fact that in the campaign last camping you covered. So well, we helped transform the debate in America. You know, when I talked about a fifteen dollars an hour. Minimum wage, you coveted full years ago that was radical that was extreme today. Six states have already passed. I suspect the US house will pass fifteen dollars an hour in the next month two. So ideas that we brought forth helped transform the discussion in America. We started that the bait I want to end that discussion and take those ideas into the White House. Oh, one ask you about the news overnight North Korea has now launched what appeared to be a series of missile tests. How would president Sanders? Played the last situation, you know, this is one area actually where I do not full Trump. I think the idea of sitting down with Kim Jong UN is the right thing to do. It is very very difficult. But clearly they are a threat to the planet. They isolated demagogic. And we have just got to do everything we can have China and the people in the Pacific rim put as much pressure on North Korea and make it clear that they cannot continue to act this way. It is not an easy situation. Okay. Lightning around. So in your lifetime. The president's that you observed who was the best president. I think Lyndon Johnson does not get the credit that he deserves for his domestic agenda. Vietnam was terrible. Terrible. Terrible. But I think on domestic issues LBJ deserves a lot more credit than on Cory Booker says he will name a woman as his running mate, we make the same pledge. I would give very serious consideration about personal call. I think it's premature would be silly to to make that statement right now, you can't give us your shortlist right now. Do you favor adding seats the supreme court? Do you favor do away with the electoral college? I think when you have a guy in the White House right now who receive three million votes less than his opponent, something that's fundamentally. Okay. Last question who's going to win the Iowa caucuses? Well, not going to speculate. We did pretty well less line. We basically tied with flurry Clinton, you got within three tenths of a point. All I can tell you about here. The boy we're gonna work at hawed. And I hope we do. All right Senator. Thank you for talking to us. I appreciate your time. Okay. Thank you. The president has been tweeting about Joe Biden a lot is at because he's the latest in the race arm because the president sees it nominee in the things he can beat them. I think he's just the latest flavor of the day. And I think, you know, next week it'd be somebody else for the Democrats the mayor of some town was on time magazine yesterday. So he'll be the flavor of the which I actually kidding. All right. So let me. All right. Let's bring in our power house roundtable, former New Jersey, Governor and ABC news contributor, Chris Christie, democratic strategist Stephanie Brown, James co-founder of collective pack. Jonathan swan national political reporter for axios and our own Mary Bruce senior congressional correspondent for ABC news. So the mayor of some town. Yeah, I like that. But but let me let me ask you heard Senator Sanders on this question of the new generation of leadership this line that so many of his opponents saying he sounds like he's not going to exploit the youth and inexperience bonus. Yes. Using the Ronald Reagan line, very well. I don't think that that's going to matter. I don't think the youth versus, you know, the kind of Biden Sanders Warren even wing of the of the parties, I don't think they were divides going to be. I think this divide going to be all the energy is on the far left of the party, Ken someone like Biden who's off to seemingly good start. Ken key survive when all the energies on the left side. I think this is very much left center argument inside their party very much the way we've had right-center arguments on the Republican side who's gonna come out of it. And how they how they going to manage that. But Stephanie this does seem like we are seeing a real war for the ideological soul of the democratic primary party in this primary. You know, Biden and Sanders represent two very different visions for the party and for America. Absolutely. But right now, we are seeing that Biden is being very successful in his in his race right now. I mean people like Joe Biden, he is polling twenty points higher than any of his other competitors people think that he's the man to beat Donald Trump. And right now, they want a candidate that is going to not only be strong on policy, but but be Trump, and I think it's expert a little bit overblown. How much you are talking about the idiological differences people want someone who is charismatic. Someone who can beat Trump also someone who they can trust. And I think that's why Joe Biden we'll continue to do. Well, and what what is the answer to the question to judge Janine was asking mic there, Jonathan why is the president so enthralled with with tweeting about Joe Biden is is that is that we worries about Trump this been a couple of people who have told him or this at least one person. I know he's told him to stop elevating Biden because it's only helping him the Trump likes to try and define people early on. I mean that's his whole game. It's like I need to brand him. He see, you know, it's all through the lens of branding. So that's what he's doing right now. And Trump just looks at the polls note that complicated. He sees the pose Biden's at the top. I'm going to spend a lotta time bathing this guy up. I mean, I genuinely from any compensation people around Trump. I don't think he's expressing the ring his hands. Oh, what do I do about Baden? I really that's just not how he is. But there are people around him who see Biden is the biggest threat. It, and it's very simple reasons that the rust belt is where they need to win this election and Baden can take a lot of these photos, and it is interesting. How much Biden himself is talking about Trump. I mean when you compare what Biden has said in the last several events that he's had versus what your conversation with Bernie Sanders. Just now Sanders is talking about Biden Biden is talking about Trump. And I do have to say, I think I disagree with the governor a little bit about the generational challenge. Is here. I was out on the road this week with Joe Biden, the generational issues. Are he's got a problem with the under thirty crowd. I mean, I talked with a lot of young voters. They said, oh, we like Joe Biden, you're my grandpa. And if I asked them, we'll do they feel that the grandpa Joe can represent them. Can they can he speak for them? A lot of Joe older shrugs some awkward pauses when I asked a lot of voters. You know, if you have to it comes down to Bernie and Biden, how do you make that decision? Every single voter. I talked to young and old said when it comes down to it. They just want someone anyone who can be Donald of God and says he's going to be very tough on Margaret Thatcher. I find that's why Biden is doing this. I think smartly bind doesn't want to argue with any of those people. There's one argue with Bernie or Buddha judge or who anybody binds, listen, you wanna be Trump on the guy. And that's got to be his argument. And that recent poll helps him you say, listen, I'm the guy who can do this and do this better than anybody else. And so I that's why I override all this in the end across wants to win. Yeah. Wait, you know, what's interesting about that same that same poll? Also showed that Democrats overwhelmingly. Yes, we Democrats are focused on beating Trump, but they also really want to pivot on issues that they are concerned about they want someone to talk about healthcare. They once want to talk about public education. And so the candidate that's both able to focus on how I'm going to beat Trump. But also how going to create some policy solutions is going to be a problem with that is how they talk about it. Yeah. Because if they start talking about it and feel draw. On as many of them have further and further left that plays right into the president's hands. Because then he'll brand even Biden ultimately as a socialist. If he starts talking in that way. And that's a that's a label much worse than sleeping Joe on the socialism label is going to be one that will cut if they can be made credibly by the president. And isn't there a fundamental problem or challenge that Democrats face you're talking about anger at corporate America talk about the economy when we were looking at the lowest unemployment rate in fifty years, and as I talked about with Senator Sanders, it's not just the big macro numbers. We're seeing a real wage growth for the first time in a long time. How do you as as Democrats make the argument on the economy when the economy is doing so well, it's hard to make that argument right now for the Democrats? That's why they need to pivot to other issues that voters care about healthcare can be a real issue that Democrats can control the narrative because it is hard for them to to beat back the reality that the economy is doing well and Trump is of course, taking all the credit for it. But I think they need. Really pivot to issues that they can be strong on the economy is not for the if we are a year from right now in exactly the same spot economically where we are today. I think the Democrats have hope I think that you know, in the end, that's the way people vote in these elections, especially the wage growth. John is a really important part of this. Because if middle-class voters start seeing their wages going up they're going to give the credit to the president. Because whoever's in gets the credit present deserves the credit for what he's done, and I think it will be very hard for any Democrats to break through. So Trump goes from the guy that couldn't win to the guy that can't lose. I didn't know about. But I don't disagree with the governor on that. I mean, it's and that's why look fit. That's why Trump doesn't see his greatest threat is Joe Biden, he sees his greatest threat is Jerome Powell, right? As he thinks are Federal Reserve is the greatest threat to his to his reelection. And he said that I will say though, and I agree Stephanie. I think Democrats know that they need to be focused more on health care on energy and climate issues on education rather than just the economy, but despite the strong economic numbers, I mean, the president's approval rating is still below forty percent. So it's not clear how much credit he's really getting going to continue to get from this economic which approve running on on Hanley the economy's at fifty six percent, which I don't see that kind of divide, and this gets to all the other issues that we saw, you know. But if you go those other issues will be distraction compared to the economic numbers that I think people were wondering this week. Why did the president have that meeting with Chuck and Nancy as he calls them and agree to two trillion dollar in concept to to? Yeah. Why did he do that? Plus he's concerned that the economy won't last until November because he's concerned exactly about old town what he'll do. And if he puts two trillion dollars worth of stimulus. It's this economy pudding union trade workers to work and and building up the economy's in the states by pun funding. All this money in the economy will stay at this level or even better. This is an economic move by the presence a hedge against what he's concerned the fed will do, but let me ask you the politics on that. Because I know this is not really the Republican party anymore. It's the Trump party. He's he is the you know, he is the leader of this party. But the idea of conservatives supporting a two trillion dollar spending Bill, especially in the face of the kind of deficits we're seeing is that is that. I mean, does it make people nervous? No your party. You'll make some more deserves Christy. You know, what makes people more nervous? And what would make me more nervous Bernie Sanders presidency? That's what made me listen. But that's the I mean these. Sanders. I have a hard time competing with two trillion dollars. He on it the president's theory here. Yeah, I'm going to get out in front of this issue. It's going to pump up my economy. And what's Bernie Sanders or Joe Biden or anybody else gonna say about me, putting building trades people to work on the streets, the roadways the railways of America to improve our infrastructure, the airports the tunnels. This is going to be if the president pulls this off this is not only be great for economic. But it's also going to be a great political move for him in the debate. That's going to go on with the eventual democratic so so so so can Democrats simultaneously talk about impeaching him? And then work with him on what would be maybe the biggest domestic policy initiative we've ever seen since the great society. And that's and that's if this actually happens. I mean, I think that Democrats talking about impeachment right now, isn't helpful for the Democrats agenda. People want to talk about issues that are impacting them on the day to day level, which is why Democrats definitely pivot to talking about other issues other than. The economy and other than than the impeachment air, quite frankly other than a mullet report. Yes, there's still a lot that has to be uncovered there. We need to focus on. How are we going to protect our elections moving forward? I mean, we we still haven't had any concrete solutions as to how we're going to make sure that no foreign governments are impeding the next election. And so that's a real issue for Americans. And that that sounds like Nancy Pelosi. That's basically her message to the party. But then why are we seeing so many of the twenty twenty candidates getting way out there saying that Trump needs to be impeached bar needs to be held in contempt. They're I mean, they're they're going there on this issue because they spending time with democratic primary voters who want Trump to be again, what did governor Christie say, where's the energy in the potty? This is the primary electric. It's not necessarily the national electric. That's the primary electric when you're spending all your time with activists effectively a lot of your time with activists you're going to hear impeachment come up a little bit. So we're we're Pelosi explosives. Really direct saying that bar lied suggesting he committed a crime in his testimony before congress. What strikes me about our comments this week is that you're definitely seeing Nancy Pelosi emphasizing a lot more with those members of her caucus who are frustrated and furious and with a lot of the democratic candidates that does not mean though that she's inching any closer to actually supporting impeachment. But she is going further in her criticism. I mean, she really ripped into the president and into the attorney general this week, but she also has made clear that the bar for impeachment hasn't changed you still need bipartisan support, and you still need buying from the public, and that's not going to change. She desperately. I think wants to focus on the agenda wants to talk about healthcare wants to talk about issues that she knows voters really care about which isn't necessarily what folks inside the beltway wanna talk about. But it's a real tough challenge her. And I think she knows. And also, they also can't seem tone deaf to not talk about the fact that. Yeah, we do think that bar lied in his testimony. So they have to it's a balancing act of how much you. Talk about what is happening right in front of you with bar, but also stay focused on issues that make Democrats little it looks. It's farcical. I mean, how many deadlines has Jerry Nadler, given high noon deadline's, April second, you must release the more put, and then all that's really cute when deadlines task can you must comply, actually, no we'll back off Bill by you must have and guess what? Monday morning, nine AM. The latest headline deadline pound sand will be Bill BAAs response to that. And it just keep doing it. Because here's what the secret is. They can hold him in contempt. It's been done before it matters. Nothing goes through the courts, it's going to get dragged out Bill by knows. He's got the power. And he is telling them to go shove, the jobless when Mary turn the phrase of people being frustrated and furious that reminds me the last time that we held in attorney general in contempt the Republican held Eric Holder contempt over fast and furious, and what happens nothing because you know, what happens that gets referred to the Justice depart. For prosecution, and they were culture went. Yeah. I think prosecute myself. Well, if you think Bill bars gonna have any different answer, you could forget it. That's what's going to happen. And listen, I think the problem this left-center problem in the democrat yourself, I would not gonna say, especially when I know I didn't do anything wrong as Bill Barden. Here's the thing. The left center fight and the Democratic Party is taking them off a focus because those far left people as Jonathan pointed out who want impeachment who want contempt Bill bar who want more subpoenas and more hearings. The presidential candidates reacted in a lot of congressional people are saying come on. We gotta keep this majority in the house, we've got to get focused on healthcare and other issues that may actually move those those center voters their way rather than the president's. They don't seem to be ready to take the foot off the gas on. No. All right. That is all the time. We have thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out world news tonight had a great day. Alarm panic. There are dozens of words for fear, but just one for exceptional home security to stop beer at your door. Simply safe. Simply safe is twenty four seven protection for your home with no contract, no hidden fees, and fair, honest pricing. Simply safe is offering a sixty day risk-free trial that includes free shipping and free returns. Go to SimpliSafe dot com slash now. To get started today.

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