4 Episode results for "Dr Goodell"
Dr. Jane Goodall The Legend, The Lessons, The Hope (#421)
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These days as you know with a million messages per minute not enough hours in the day. How'd you really catch people's attention this is? Lincoln can help with Lincoln ads. You can catch the right professionals. The right people at the right time and I'll tell you how I'm using them personally in a minute. Lincoln ads can drive traffic to landing. Pages for instance engagement and for many of you most importantly conversions whether that's registrations for an event downloads of white papers and e books or other important metrics me. Personally I'm going to be testing. Lincoln adds to drive sign ups to my free newsletter. Five bullet Friday which I've realized drives just about everything else with precise targeting through Lincoln entrepreneurs startups and SNB's at small medium. Sized businesses can better more cost effectively reached the people who matter to them specifically with more than sixty two million decision makers on Lincoln. You're able to connect with the business leaders or just the target audience who are most relevant to your company and deliver a clear call to action. That's always Ri- focus a lot on my energy obviously headline and call to action linked in ads allows you to cut through the clutter and ensure your messages are getting through to the people you most want to target so huge medium-sized and small. Businesses alike are all making the most out of Lincoln ads entrepreneur. Sola preneurs you name it so try for yourself. Lincoln is offering a free one hundred dollar Lincoln at credit to launch your first campaign simply visit Lincoln Dot com slash T. F. S. as in temporary show again that's Lincoln Dot com slash T. F. S. terms and conditions apply. Hello Boys and girls ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to a very special episode of the Tim. Ferriss show I have wanted to interview this incredible guest since day. One of this podcast somewhere between six and eight years ago and she is a living legend. Dr Jane Goodall she was born on April third. Nineteen thirty four and London England at the young age of twenty six. She followed her passion for animals in Africa. Tagami Tanzania where? She began her landmark study of chimpanzees in the wild immersing herself like no one had before in their habitat as a neighbor rather than a distant observer discovery in sixty that chimpanzees not only us but make tools rocked the scientific world and redefine the relationship between humans and animals in one thousand nine hundred seven. She established the Jane Goodall Institute. Jj to advance her work around the world and for generations to come JJ continues. The field research gumby and builds on Dr Goodell's innovative approach to conservation which recognizes the central role that people play in the wellbeing of animals and the environment in nineteen ninety. One she founded roots and shoots a program that empowers young people in nearly sixty countries and since its inception in. Nineteen ninety-one has greatly impacted youth in more than one hundred countries to act as the informed cultivation leaders that the world so urgently needs today. Dr Travels around the world normally three hundred plus days a year although certainly quarantine changes that speaking about the threats facing chimpanzees environmental crises and her reasons for hope and we do talk a lot about our current situation and I spoke to her from her childhood home. In England inner books and speeches she emphasizes the interconnectedness of all living things and the collective power of individual action. Dr Goodell is a U. N. Messenger of peace and dame commander of the British Empire if that is not one of the coolest titles you've ever heard I don't know what is the next chapter of Dr Goodell's life's work in a brand new documentary and I highly highly recommend watching it. Jane Goodall the hope premiering on Earth Day April twenty. Second that's this April twenty second at nine eastern eight central on Nat Geo Nat Geo wild and net Geo Mundo. The two hour special takes viewers through the chapters of her amazing journey and the sixty years since her groundbreaking discoveries in Gumby researching wall chimpanzees including her Activism Chretien over nonprofit organization. The Jane Goodall Institute as I mentioned earlier and Roots and shoots the youth program which you can find out more about at roots and shoots dot org along with her current efforts to inspire the next generation. Dr Goodell's work through the Jane Goodall Institute is Advanced. The generous support of their donor family. People like you and me in other words to show your support visit. Jane Goodall Dot Org forward slash. Tim Can find her on social on all social platforms at Jane Goodall Inst- as an institute at Jane Goodall inside I N S T and you can find out more about her youth program and visit them on social on all social platforms at roots and shoots and without further ado. Please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation that I so thoroughly enjoyed myself with Dr Jane Goodall Dr Goodall. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. I'm thrilled to finally connect. I don't use the word hero. Much certainly been a hero and an idol to me for many decades in a previous lifetime. I want to be a marine biologist and I am also very lucky in a sense that I have you in one place because your team has told me you travel and have traveled three hundred plus days a year for the last several decades but my understanding now is that you are in Bournemouth and I thought we would start perhaps close to the beginning and this certainly takes place in England just as context from your childhood. I understand that you grew up during wartime and I would love to hear you describe what that experience was like. Well now. I'm really glad I grew up at time because although it was shocking I mean we will in Bournemouth but some bombs were dropped here. The German fighters used to dump their bombs near the coast if they hadn't managed to hit the target and whistled of in the Middle. So we had the bombs falling. We had sirens air-raid warnings. We had to go into an air raid shelter which is a little tiny cage really supposed to be keeping people safe so families children were issued them and people were killed and damaged and we never knew with the bums would fall in London. My uncle was a surgeon so he come back every other weekend with shocking tales of of what had been happening but the reason I say I was glad I grew up then is because I land take nothing for granted. One Square of chocolate was a huge treat. Food was rationed closed garage and We had very little money out. There was no television. Only television. Were the news reels. That was just about the war and so books became very very important and I still got my childhood books here with me in the room as I speak to you and so we luckily have. This garden is my grandmother's House and I spent lots and lots of time with my dog. So the really shocking part was hearing about the Holocaust and seeing photographs of the skeletons of the Jews in the camps were opened up. I mean skeletons of living people and that really changed everything. Life started thinking age ten about good and evil so that was my growing up in the wool. As you were growing up I I read a number of stories that seem to In a sense foreshadow much of what would come later but I read stories of your mother finding you observing earthworms in your bed. I read of stories of you hiding and waiting for more than four hours to see a hen laying an egg and the police almost being called. Because you are missing is is that comfort with patients and on some level isolation. Something that you developed yourself. Is that something? You've observed and other family members Would love to hear you comment on that. If you could it was just me. I mean on the family in a loved animals but they didn't observe them a watch them. I didn't have any Any example tour. I was just born that way and having such a supportive mother. I mean UH swims in my bed imaginable. The Earth and the muck and lots of mothers will be horrified and and throw them out of the window which she just required. Lee said You die here and we took them back in the garden amend the Hen House Story. It's one I tell a lot because we went to stay on a farm in the country and I was given. The job of collecting Henson was appropriate from there. Were no animals. Cooped up in tiny prison-like would Animal concentration accounts. They will free roaming in the field and the hens and the NFL but they lay the eggs in these little hen house. Apparently I began asking. Everybody wins the egg. Come out nobody. Distinctly remember seeing hen go into a hen house and I crawled off to her and skulks of fear. She flew out. I can still feel her wings itching. My face and I must have sought in that little four and a half year. Old Brain will know Hen Malayan kids dangerous place so way to that was the time. I waited and waited in this empty house but was rewarded the head and came in and I didn't know the family being read. I was rushing towards the house and that was mom. You can imagine how worried she was having nearly called the police but instead of how dare. You often do bed that again. We should have killed the magic. She sat down to hear this amazing story. And the reason I love it is less the making a little scientist curiosity asking questions. Not Getting the right on to find out feel self making a mistake not giving up and learning patients. A different kind of mother might have crushed that early scientific curiosity and I might not have done or not done. It seemed to really cultivate your not just ability but perseverance with observation and in watching footage of you and we'll we'll certainly get to Africa and other experiences in your biography that you have to have many sensitivities and I could be off base with that but I want to ask you a bit more about your mother because in reading a New York Times profile from Suppose about a year ago there was a one paragraph that caught my eye and it was related to your childhood during wartime and related to your father's brother. Rex who had joined the Air Force and was killed and the sentence that caught. My eye was one day. We were in Bournemouth in the evening and suddenly she. Your mother screamed wrecks and started sobbing hysterically and it was the very moment he was shot down over Egypt. So just for clarity. Is that to say that. She somehow intuited that he had been shot down before receiving news. I'll absolutely I mean nope we didn't know for quite some time under a different. Asians like we were walking on the beach. Normally we have to go up to our little guest house. The quickest way but on this occasion mom decided to take away which she never did. She had a week hot but she took us the long run. I still remember looking up with the Blue Blue Sky. Emceeing an aeroplane quite high and seeing to black things that looked like cigars coming out on each side. Among through me and my assistant to the ground I can still hear the terrible explosion. Am One of those bombs felt right on the path where we would surely have seen if we go short way the normal way. Have you experienced any of that for lack of a better word intuition in your own life in the field or elsewhere or is that something that was unique to your mother? Pretty unique to her. But you know I experience very vividly the presence of my second husband after he guide and it ties in with what other people have seen them felt so in other words. We're going into a different realm here but I don't know what people believe and I'm not quite sure what it all means myself but it's a p people have been asking me what's next big adventure and always say dying because you know when we die the nothing which is fine or something and if there's something what's an adventure to find out you've had you've had more adventures than most and I suppose. This is a good time for those who certainly recognize your name. I think almost everyone will recognize your name. And they'll know that you're considered to be one of the world's foremost experts on chimpanzees but beyond that. I think many people don't know about the early chapters and I'd like to Segue to that because it opens up a number of doors that we can explore. Let's flashback could to March nine thousand nine hundred eighty seven and I believe your passport is missing. Can you explain what has happened? Well we've done a last minute shopping and of course in those days when planes going back and forth that's how long I've lived and it was by boat and we actually I suppose train hustle. Something I can't remember the details and suddenly I found. I didn't have my passport and I remembered we'd been shopping in Peter Jones and so mum rang up shops at they funded. We found somebody to go and collect it who rushed to the dock otherwise I couldn't sailed and all my money would be wasted. So what's the drama with a way to start and that money just just for those? Who aren't familiar W that was painstakingly. Gathered over rather long period of time with various jobs was not. It's not like you had this in a bank account just waiting to be used for whatever purpose for a long period of time school. It was no money for university. I have to have a job. You know we had very little money so I I pulled it a secretarial course which was boring but I got my diploma. I got a job then. Came the letter from a school friend. Inviting me to Kenya so you could save money in London so I went home and got a job a waitress in a hotel around the corner very hard work in those days families coming to spend a week by the seaside. And you've got to look after them for whole week. If you wanted any so the tips the small but hunt made sure they own you. I was saving up for Africa. So it's how I got the money I would love just to spend a moment and we don't have to spend a lot of time on this but discussing Louis Leakey and I've read various accounts of how you connected with him. But I'd like to to hear it directly from you and In perhaps you could describe what it was that he saw in you but that initial contact is and how that came to be is is of great interest to me two could speak to that. I would appreciate it like be staying with my friend for about a couple of months and somebody said to me at a party. If he'll interested in animals he released me yours leaky He was curator at that time. A Natural History Museum but of course. He's best known as a a very eminent paleontologist. He'd spent his life with his second wife. Mary Leakey searching for the fossils are stone-age ancestors across Africa and so I was very shy back then but I rang. The museum said I'd love to make an appointment to meet Dr Leaky an appointment. I'm leaky what you want. But anyway I was so passionate about animals anyway. Went to see him and he took me all around. He asked me many questions about the stuffed animals. That were and I think he was impressed. That because I read everything I could about Africa. I on so many of these questions while I mentioned earlier that boring secretarial course. I did two days before I met leaky. His secretary had suddenly quit. He needed a secretary and there. I was never know in this life. So I'm suddenly surrounded by people who can answer all my questions about the mammals and birds reptiles amphibians the insects the plans. It was heaven. Oh you leykis wanted. He see in. May young a feeling that women may better observe us. They were more patient. He also wanted somebody to go and study chimpanzees because of his interest in human evolution. So the fossils of early man that he was uncovering can tell a lot from up fossil about whether the creature walked upright muscle attachments. The wear of the tooth shows roughly. The kind of Diet behavior doesn't plus lies so he reckon there was a apelike human like common ancestor about six million years ago? Just now generally accepted and that he thought Jane Behavior in chimps and humans today is similar or same maybe it came directly from the common ancestor and has been with us through a long separate eagerly journeys in which case he could have a better way of imagining how his early humans used to behave so he wanted a mind uncluttered by the reductionist thinking of the animal behavior. People at the time. It was a very new science. They were anxious to make it a hard science which it shouldn't be and so the fact I hadn't been to college was plus the fact that I was. A woman was plus. I was lucky. Well he he seems to have picked the winning lottery ticket or at least a a very formidable combination of traits and if we take that mention of patients or his belief that in part women make better observers because of more patients if we flash forward then to you landing in Gumby Stream National Park Tanzania from getting the pronunciation correct. I was watching The first net gio maybe not the first but the one of the more recent NAT. Go documentaries about you titled Jane and in that and also in your writing. I believe it took something like five months of constant effort and having chimpanzees flee from your presence to finally be what we might call accepted and I have two questions related to that. The first is what do you think made the difference? Why did they go from fleeing to accepting and second is when you I really had the opportunity to look deeply into a chimpanzees is what did you? What did you see and just as importantly? What did you feel alright? Well the acceptance in the in the movie it sort of looked to survey something accepted made. It wasn't like that it was very gradual. It was partly thanks to this one male who began to lose his fear much ahead of the others. Michael Him David Greybeard subtly white band and because he began to let me get closer and closer I think if I came to group in the forest and he was with that group because they separate into you know separate small groups and sometimes but if he was there than the others were ready to run but he was sitting calmly and I suppose that made them feel well. She can't be so dangerous after all so gradually. I could get closer. And the first time I came close to a group. That didn't run away. I think was one of the proudest moments of my life. You know it made it just in time before the six months money ran out and So go I'd seen David Greybeard use and make tools to fish for termites. Thought to be something only humans capable of. That's what brought the geographic lie to the beginning. Six months off to the study began may agree to gone funding. It was David Greybeard. The first chimpanzee that you were able to get close enough to to sort of connect eye-to-eye with definitely what did you see and feel when you had that opportunity. Well I saw that I was looking is a thinking feeling being and it was not so surprising. You might think because I'd always felt that animals were thinking feeling beings but with the chimpanzee so like US behaviorally and biologically. It's it's almost. It's not like looking at another human is different and I can't explain how it's different but it was a very magical moment. Because he looked back. That was the thing he didn't run. He just sat there and looked back at me. I would love to ask questions about what we might learn. And what perhaps you've learned about human nature or even questions have been raised in your interactions and observations of chimpanzees and mentioned it briefly but it it's hard to overstate just how incredible and shocking and world-shattering for many people was that you observed chimpanzees not just using tools but constructing tools for in this case consuming. Termites mean it. May it made news around the world? You'd many other observations. I believe also that the belief that chimpanzees were purely vegetarians. Also you observed not to be the case with their their consumption of other primates exactly and you noted and I know this was a real in some is a FAUX PAS at the time real personalities. And you might have been accused of anthropomorphic at all of these things but you observe different personalities in different chimpanzees and I thought perhaps we could just start with a story and that is the story of old man and Mark Cassano. If I'm getting the pronunciation right and then I have questions about a few other chimpanzees you personally had quite a bit of interaction with crews on our own land on an island in Lion Country Safari in Florida and old man had been in medical research it being captured from the wild. His mother was shocked and he was called old man. Because an infant shampoos distressed and frightened they have wrinkled faces and they huddle only they do not carry old and he was lucky he was about twelve and for some reason he was known now more used to the lab and he was put on an island with three females two of them for medical research one from searches and Maku Sauna was employed to look after them and he was told. Don't go anywhere near them that bishops. They hate people much stronger than you. They'll kill you so he troops food from his little paddle boat onto the island and began watching them. A baby was born so old man was the father and he felt visas. Such amazing beams. I must have some kind of relationship with them. If I'm to look after them supergun going closer close on one day. He held out a banana in his hand. When when Oldman to beat he said I know how you felt when David Banana from you. When they he went onto the island one day he groomed old man one day they they played an old man. I laughed and they became basically. That was a friendship and then one day mark slipped into being raining fell flat on his face unfortunately frightened this infant. Who is the love of old man's life that will bind us to protect and carry him and share Food Welsh? The mother hearing her scream raced an attacked mark biting his neck. The other two females to support her ran in one big his wrist one becky's leg and Marc will hound awesome. I going to get away from them so much stronger than us. He looked up. He saw Oldman thundering across the island with a furious colonists base on he thought his time and come to die on come to protect is precious infant but what old man did was to pull those. Three screaming rose females off mock and keep them away while not dragged himself to safety. I met mark when he came out of hospital. He said no questions. Oldman saved my life and so in. I always think if a chimpanzee who's being abused by people can reach out to help a human friend in time of need then surely agree with a greater capacity. Compassion can do the same to the chimpanzees in that time. The thank you for telling that story. And it's I think a useful and beautiful segue into a discussion of some of the other things that you observed and in this case we see compassion on the part of old man and then Perhaps on the other hand you've also observed quite a lot of aggression and violence Within chimpanzee communities of both the I think it was nineteen seventy four to seventy eight. Gumby Chimpanzee War I saw footage of. I think it was the southern troop being violated or at least the The dead bodies of those chimps. I believe in. Please correct me if I'm wrong. That in some cases dominant females will deliberately kill the young of other females to maintain dominance observing that in chimpanzees but also observing the compassion as you have. What has that led you to Believe or infer about human nature. Well it's interesting when I began talking about aggression. Many scientists told me I should play that down because it might indicate that aggression in humans was inherited from a Ancestors which for me was very clearly the case and I thought I'm not going to be bullied. I never have been by scientific opinion so I continued to talk about it. And it was the time you wouldn't remember. It was nineteen seventy seven. I think and it was a time. When whether aggression is innate inborn or acquired land was was a huge controversy. And that's when I I really talked about it to a scientific community and I I don't know I mean. It seems obvious to me that we've inherited from our common ancestor traits of aggression and also traits of compassion and empathy. To what extent if we take an example a from your personal experience and I I know very little about Frodo but Frodo seems to have been amongst the chimpanzees. You had exposure to one of the more aggressive. But I'd love to hear you speak to this. And how would you explain the variance among chimpanzees? Was it also appear to be a nate? Did did it seem to stems from some type of trauma. How did you think about that? And perhaps Frodo specifically well. They're all different. Some are much more aggressive than others disliked. We off a Rodeo. Once spoiled he was a spoilt Brat is a mother was the highest ranking female. At the time he had to. You had one older brother who always came to his defense did fee and so he always got his own way and he was. He was a real bully. So it's to a two young ones plane. Same Age as him haves and he came to join them they would stop playing immediately because they knew if he entered the game he suddenly become rough and cause them to be hurt so it it wasn't just humans feel the systems and specially me that he targeted with his displays hitting over dragging. I got Western Wall. I was stamped upon. But he was not try really to her. But he was trying to assert his dominance and I guess they don't realize quite how strong they are. I'm going to be wanted to kill me. I wouldn't be speaking to you now. That special is the assertion of dominance does is how much of this conscious and I don't know how one would even know but is is that is that a conscious or potentially conscious political maneuver to to get better access to resources and so on or is it really just a conditioned behavior based on as you said being being spoiled and that just being some type of primitive drive that they have and perhaps even we have because Don's brother before him became the top ranking male android had a very different character was reflective He became dominant not to aggression but still being smart some of the males get to the top by share aggression by bullying by swaggering about waving their arms. They remind me so much of some. Human politicians is not true but there are other males who get to the top by skillfully forming alliances and they only tackle high ranking male when the allies said to support them and then there are some who just persist they persist in charging towards groups of superior males who agree me each other startling them so they run away an Indian. This was Goblin Indian. I think the other males so it will he just go on doing us all right miss. Just let him get to the top. We don't care anymore. That's how it seemed. And he penned millions and he was small and he wasn't very blessed to you are I think for many people a messenger of hope and I personally swing quite often more often than I would like. Between having faith in humankind human nature and feeling as though we are perhaps hard coded or through DNA destined to at times revert to our lesser selves lowest selves most aggressive selfish selves. How have you formed your own thinking or I should say what is what is your thinking about human nature and where it has let us and how that relates to perhaps poor decisions and good decisions that we've made that have landed us where we are. Certainly you're in your childhood home Spending more time in England now than you have in decades. I'm also in in lockdown. But how after your many decades of observation of not just chimpanzees but humans. Where do where do you currently stand on thinking about human nature? Well I find sadly there are some people who really cost a very bad light on human beings. We looked down from another planet. And that's I mean you know as I told you earlier I was so shocked about Holocaust on. That's what made me think about human evil. And the way we differ from the chimps is that chimps can be aggressive in chimps can kill. But it's on something that's roused. It's a a strong emotion and they just display an attack but human beings can sit and think and plan deliberate torture mental and physical in cold blood and that I think is where we differ an changes from aggression to evil. And it's the dichotomy I mean. Some people are saintly and patient and good and other people The opposite and unfortunately. Today we have many presidents and prime ministers who seem to be more concerned for their own advance on their own careers. Their own power Their own acquisition of wealth gun for the good of the people who elected them. So we're both and it's going to be a race. Isn't it as to which side will win if they if the greedy materialism of the capitalist materialistic world wyndhams then we're doomed and this is why I spend so much of my time trying to grow program for young people because I would say almost none of the young people who've been through this program which began in ninety-one and is now in six countries and his kindergarten through university in Idaho? I don't know more than two. Who strayed from the part of having good values respect for nature respect for each other? So I want to grow more and more of these young people because they're the future leaping stealing their future for decades and this is the roots and shoots youth program that you're referring to yes roots and shoots dot org also put that in the show notes for everyone of course. Let's let's talk a little bit more about that and As it relates to youth program the the cultivation of minds that are inclined to bend towards the light instead of the darkness or towards good instead of evil. I know there's a very strong words but let's use them for now. If we're looking at the current situation as it relates to SARS Cov two and Cova nineteen and so on Could you speak to? What got us into this fix. And I mean I'm thinking of course the the wildlife trade it's effects on human health and so on it doesn't need to be specific to that but how we got here how we contributed to it and then also. If if you're teaching us how you would how you would educate them so that they don't make the same mistakes. They long last week questions I did. It's a bit of a sloppy question. Sorry about that with the Hocutt nineteen cassettes on everybody's minds right now and the shocking thing is. It's been predicted by science. Decades just like climate change has been predicted and I only wish somehow that being locked down about climate. Change the way that this being locked down over this this this virus because you know we we. We have known for all this time that because we are destroying the environment of some of these animals this spending having to spend more time in contact with each other because they've got less habitat and also more time in contact with humans and sometimes that's that involves crop rating but there's also people penetrating deeper and hunting and then of course selling the meat in the African markets Bushmeat Aman selling me to cross Asia in these terrible what they're known as wet markets and also selling animals for medication for pets all of this bringing us in close contact so the theory seems to be what the virus in a wild animal and because of this closer contact between animals it jumps into another animal. And that's when in these very bad conditions including factory forms by the way the virus commend jump into a human if there is a similar kind of virus with which this new one combined and that leads to a new A new form which as as is the case with with the Kobe. Nineteen can be rather devastating. Just think if we if we treated climate change like this all those years ago when we were warned about it we might not be in the State Lauren. Now so basically I'm saying is. Our leaders have not listened to science. The big corporations have not listened to science and hundreds of people. Now we're in this materialistic money. Grabbing age you know just want to carry on with business as usual. They don't want to think about not eating. Well the meat they won't or not Favoring the destruction of a piece of habitat to build yet another shopping mall so you know. That's that's what the viruses teaching us. And will we learn from it? We didn't seem to land from the markets live. Animals are banned for awhile but then it started up again. China is not talking about making it permanent with a still allowing animals. Wild animals to be sold medicine snaps a tremendous new poll luckily people in China to close that loophole. To if you have a classroom and as you do now with social media I mean you you are arguably reaching more people now virtually than you might in travel speaking to live audiences. But let's say you had a classroom of ten thousand children or adolescents youth. Who were hanging on your every word. What are the principles truths that you would infuse in your lessons to them? That could possibly help. Avoid some of these problems that we've we've created a or types of thinking. What would the would the curriculum? Look like must've Let me just say that roots and shoots which began in Nineteen Ninety One. Twelve high school students dar-es-salaam incomes and yet we decided as a meeting the same of our aid. You know coaching in the pox. Illegal dynamite fishing and street children than cruel treatment of animals in the market. I mean they were concerned about kinds of different things so we decided that the main message this new program that we wanted to start together would be that every single individual matters is role to play and makes a difference every single day with a choice to kind of difference to make right from the beginning because I learned about the Indian connection of things in the rainforest. How every species matters has evolved play? We decided that every group formed would choose between them three projects one to help people wanted to help animals one to help the environment and they would share their projects with each other and so we began listening to them. What did they feel matter? How could we help them? And when he when young people understand the problems and we empower them to take action and listen to their voices. It's quite extraordinary. I mean the my main reason for hope is traveling around the world as I have been. I've met so many young people have been part of roots and shoots or similar groups. Shining is wanting to tell Dr Jane what they've been doing to make a better world and because they can choose they they they're passionate and they sit down together and they discuss it very democratic. They discuss what what they can do between them on. Bay Sometimes ASK FOR HELP. Maybe a parent may be a teacher And then they will up this leaves and take action whether it's restoring a wetland whether it's installing rubbish bins or organic gardens in the schools whether it's saving up money to help quake victims and because we put them in touch with each other face to face when possible but but truly which is wonderful they are inspiring each other. Yes we do have some curricula because some countries wanted UK wanted a curriculum. Were one hundred. One thousand seven hundred schools now and some of the African countries want curricula. Sometimes it's just you know so yes I do have messages for them and I do talk to them about the role that they can play about the importance of thinking about the consequences of the little choices. You make each day. How people may look different. Sound different the different languages. Different color of skin. But if they've fall and bleed the blogs saying if they wait the tears of the same and kids get it so it's not so much teaching. It's it's sort of the values of developed. They've grown up with the program and we now have a number of adults in quite high places and they have kept their values as they as they read the program and move on into adult life. So we've got teachers and people in government and people in law an just remembering the importance of respect is a key word. Respect the environment respect for animals and of course I tell them about animals in how each one has a personality. A mind emotion. How pigs and rats and octopus are amazingly intelligent and how they can feel pain and fear and despair so it depends on the children on their age kindergarten university. Between between depends what I tell them. But I do as many Gatherings of young people as I possibly can and as you say now I can do it. Virtually and I can talk to them about things that I've learned. I recall a few years ago speaking with a friend of mine who I consider to be a good father a good parent and I asked him what advice he would have for someone like me. Considering having children I have none of my own yet and his advice he had a number of pieces of advice but his first was teach your children to be optimists and it seemed like a precursor a prerequisite for so many other things and I'm I'm looking at a time Article Time magazine article. That is that you wrote in two thousand two and I just WanNa read one paragraph and then ask you to elaborate or speak to it. So here's here's the paragraph. The greatest danger to our future is apathy. We cannot expect those living in poverty and ignorance to worry about saving the world for those of us able to read this magazine and my side note or listen to this podcast. It Is Different. We can do something to preserve our planet. You may be overcome. However by feelings of helplessness. You're just one person in a world of six billion. How can your actions make a difference? Best you say to leave it to decision makers and so you do nothing. Can we overcome apathy? Yes but only if we have hope and speak to that and also just to how you cultivate. Hope whether that's in yourself or the people you speak to well. I have my reasons. Hope which I'm always sharing with people but The singer people feeling helpless. Could they don't know what to do this message? If our youth programs that every individual makes a difference and it's just you picking up trash pits just you saving more than it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference but because people are becoming more aware all around the World Ben does not you but thousands millions of people picking up trash saving more and so the message again being think about the consequences of the small choices you make everyday. What do you eat? We did it come from the town. The environment was it cruel to animals like the intensive bombing Is it cheap? Because of child slave labor somewhere make ethical choices and because millions of people making ethical choices way moving in the right direction and all of our young people you know they're influencing their parents and grandparents and I know that because the parents tell me so you know my reconsider hope number one is the youth I've said because they just so inspiring and secondly I say it's very bizarre but what makes us more different from chimps and other animals is explosive development about intellect. I mean look at what's happening now with the social media is one example. You and I talking went far apart way reaching millions of people. I mean. It's quite amazing. Isn't it when you think about it? We sent rockets demise and all that sort of thing so how did this most intellectual creatures destroying its only home so that seems to be this disconnect between the clever Brian and the human says love and compassion and thinking about? How does this help me now? Instead of how does it affect Future Generations? So now we're beginning to use our brains scientists tall to come up with more and more sophisticated. Technology will help us. Lead Beth Living more commonly with the natural world if governments would sponsor clean green energy rather than less succumbing to that ties with the oil and gas industry. We could be more or less off the granted. Many countries today China on India moving in that direction rapidly as well But each one of us can use our brains to think about the the environmental footprint. We thank each day amendment the resilience of Nature I tell people stories about areas that were totally destroyed. Rivers Lakes Lake. Mary was so polluted that it caught fire was polluted analogous fish swimming in it. Because people can animals on the brink of extinction of being given another jobs just have to say the habitats the up to change the mindset of those companies that want to destroy a forest to make money out of the wood or destroy forest to get minerals out of the ground to make more money but then we got to solve property because as you quoted Enya. If you'll really poor what what can. What can you do except cut the last three down of desperate to grow food to feed your family? Cheap is junk food because you doing to solve property unsustainable lifestyle of breast bus. But you know my last reasonable hoke is this indomitable human spirit the people who tackle what seems impossible and win involved and they may die as a result of that conviction but in the end they succeed I would live to speak about the power. Storytelling we've We've been discussing for at least a few minutes. Or at least made mention of intellect and technology to powerful and very interrelated facets of our human experience in watching the trailer for perhaps the next chapter of your life's work that will be shown and the story told in Jane Goodall the hope which is going to premiere on Earth Day April Twenty second on Nat Geo and include. That she a wild. And that's your moondog. I'll include all those details in the show notes and also will have already mentioned them in the introduction but there was a there was a quote in that trailer about changing minds. And the quote. Is this if you want somebody to change their mind? It's no good arguing. You've got to reach the heart and I wanted to. This might seem like a strange segue. I'd love to ask the question of Mr McGregor. And and how he came to his end. Could you speak to WHO MR McGregor was and ultimately how he died out with an old man like fusco go to Kombi slightly bored on the top of his head? Bit cantankerous and he was just really very very special. He had a special relationship with a young female. I don't know if she was related to him but he was old and she was young. Houston protect Amend probably the DOC stays even was some. The Wall was when the chimps were affected with a polio epidemic. And it was a terrible time. I one would come back dragging a paralyzed. Limb one Mellon Tool Cup right because one arm Toki paralyzed but Mr McGregor was paralyzed in both legs and he dragged himself up to the feeding station and I think the most awful part was on the other. Chimpanzees shunned him a fear of strangeness. Which of course is very adaptive if an infectious disease but I can never forget. It was a group of the other males grooming in a tree with enormous effort. Gregor dragged himself from branch to branch with just the strength of his arms and they took one look and climbed down and the look on his face. Will this effort. Which if I'd done wrong. Why are they going away very slowly he he? He went down to the ground again and in the end we had shoot him because we didn't have any other way of euthanizing him. We could have kept him alive feeding him but on us. But if you'd seen the sadness on his face there was no way that was alive for chimpanzee it could have been cruel so it made a deep deep impression on me. Mr McGregor and when I saw it in the movie it brought brought it'll back was a terrible time. What did you take from that experience? Whether MR McGregor in that entire experience or the polio itself affecting the chimpanzees around you what did you. What did you take from that experience or learned from that experience well and they definitely from human beings. I'm fortunately none of us. None of us a tool. But there was an epidemic in the nearby town and just some unreason. The doctor said. It wasn't polio. What he thought it was so there was no medication that was no vaccination and fuss lame chimps seen way down south near that place an I presume that spread from them up to our community because nobody in our staff or any anybody who got polio wanted. I take away from it. The fact that you know I think human beings have tended to treat people who behave strangely with fear and shown them that's led to a lot of suffering like People with cerebral palsy. People used to shut them away not realizing that inside. Those strange movements sometimes sometimes strange songs insides of accurately normal brain. But the brain can't express itself so Mr Mcgregor had what we think was his younger brother. An humphry was the only one who never left. You wouldn't go near Raga. But he's fade nearby in the trees. Even when all the rest of the group went far away feeding on some fruit humphry stayed an obsolete. We Youth Anais. We did it when no jumps around including free for at least the next month. I'm became an Saturn trees near where Mr McGregor had been so it it just taught me a lot about how chimpanzees and humans react to something strange if we then look at the work. You're doing now the work you've been doing over the last several decades but particularly with the the youth program and also in my mind trying to affect change with decision makers the the people in positions of power who are responding to their own incentives whether that be could be getting reelected could be power of some other type it could be. Acquisition of of capital could be any number of things. Are there any stories that you have found particularly effective for reaching the heart to grab the attention of of people as you've traveled in spoken with so many over so many so many decades is? Is there anything that sticks out to you? Well most people absolutely right telling stories. I always try and spend a little bit of time finding out the person I'm going to meet piss somebody in in in government or something do have children. They have dogs. I mean just so you can start something often. Not just I'm here for this bla-bla-bla lobbying on the hill for example and then try to tell stories. Because I've found that if you point fingers if you'll augmented if you'll blaming then you don't you don't see change because they're not going to let especially a woman some high powered man. There's nothing to let a woman make him look stupid by saying. Oh your rights him. I'm wrong change. I believe has to come from within. And so if you can reach the heart and there was a medical research lab and I managed to get better conditions in that lab by reaching the heart of the director of the lab telling stories about the chimps and there was another director Alab. This is slightly different. But he had a sixteen year old daughter who came to one of my ledges and I was showing secretly filmed footage of the awful conditions in the lab of which he was director conditions of the chimps. He said is don't came back. One day from this Lech sobbing. I'm saying daddy or so cruel. How can you do this? And he said Jane two years. I absolutely hated you. But he said please. Could you come and see the lab now because you are right and I never accused him directly through his daughter and he changed the lab completely The last story I love I was in a taxi was very early in the morning. I was very tired. I was going to have a snooze on the way to the airport and he had that I was one of those animal lovers and oh he couldn't stand that and his sister was one of those animal lovers to the all these poor people a why won't be helping them. What was it about animals who I thought. Oh well that's the end mice news and I pulled up the window. Lean forward in the jump seat and I told him stories about the chimps and stories about dogs all the way to the airport. We got there. He just grunted and you know. I really didn't make any difference but I had to try. He owed me ten pounds at the end because he didn't have any change so I said we'll give it to you for the work. She does in the shelter animal. I never thought he would but I got back two weeks later. There was a letter from the system and she said festival. I really want to thank you for your donation. Secondly what did you do to my brother? She said he's listening to me. He's been three times to help me in the shelter. So it's always worth doing your best because you never know what effect that is going to have. Sometimes you will never know. It was pure luck that ended the way it did. That's incredible and if if we if we dig into that just a little bit more whether it's that first director of the lab or the cabdriver you mentioned telling stories about the chimps but there are many different ways to tell stories and there are many stories that could be told. What types of stories did you tell either of them that you think could have had that impact? Our I talked about the strong bonds between family members the ON MATERNAL BEHAVIOR. I told stories like when one infant lost his mother who was three years old. It will mel. He didn't have an older brother or sister who would have adopted him with sets what they do but he was adopted. I A twelve year old unrelated adolescent male. Who carried him around shed? His food with him drew him into the night necessarily they slept called up together and most amazing the analysts mail. You should keep well out of the way of adult males socially roused charging screaming. But it'll mel who normally would have been taken away by his mother before he got into danger and spindle risk everything by running in to rescue him if he got too close to those miles even though he was beaten up quite badly himself go see. There's a legal analyst miles of scapegoats for the big meals and he saved Mel's life nominee question. Gus The kind of story that I turn you also seem to be A aside from an expert storyteller very good at using imagery or symbols and sometimes stories themselves are symbols. But could you describe MR H? Who's Mr H H was given to me twenty eight years ago? I mind call Gary Horn. Which is why he's missed. H I'm Gary. When blind when he was two and he won decided to become a magician. Everybody said but Gary you can't be a magician if you're blind. He does shows children. I watched him three or four times now and of course he sets his props up ahead of time. Children don't know he's blind and at the end he'll tell him and he'll say you know something might go wrong in your life. You can't tell if it does. Don't give up the police away and he does scuba diving cross country skiing skydiving but I think most amazing. He taught himself to paint and when he gave me Mr h e thought he was giving me stuff chimp but Mr Age has a tail and I made him hold detail he said never mind taking with you and you know. I'm ready in spirit. So he's one of those examples of the indomitable human spirit doing skydiving when you're blind teaching themselves to paint and there's a picture in this little book called blind artists which you can only get on Amazon and as a portrait of Mr H. He's never seen him. He's only fell to him. And it's unbelievable and MR H if I'm not mistaken has been many places with you I is. I don't know if you still have Mr h but I have eight. She's in this room with me By get take him to elect show he'd be a child who bust into tears. I wanted to touch Mr h because I tell them they inspiration. Russell but you know I have other symbols. I have one of the long long long I think of. I'm trying to make my my hands over to foot at that from the wing of a California condor. I've got the proper permits for it. And they were. They were downed twelve buds. And now the story many of them flying the skies. And so I have that as a symbol of the pack. We can save animals from extinction. I've got a piece of the Berlin Wall. There was a time after the war when we go up at Berlin Wall was up forever between East and West Germany but it came down. Wolves do come down despite. What one of our country's presidents thinks about roles And so I. I carry these symbols me. I've got a piece of limestone mcquarry Wa Nelson Mandela Labor for twenty one years. I think it was twenty one years in a limestone quarry. I'm before he attained his freedom and moved his country out of the evil regime of apartheid. Do you still have jubilee? And could you explain who jubilees jubilee? You know so. Many people think that because my father gave me a very large stock chimpanzee when I was one and a half but that is why I chose to study. Chimpanzees couldn't be further from the truth but I did love Jubilee and Jubilee. I had when I was one and a half and I'm sixty. I mean eighty-six now so you can imagine he's nearly board now and he's actually sitting in the National Geographic Exhibition in DC In a specially built bullet proof glass case. Because I didn't want him. You Know I. It's dangerous them to go away. He's much to purchase but he was hand carried and he's sitting down. That exhibition is going to go online. They they've made some way of showing it to people so people will be able to see the real jubilee in that school. Becoming Jane generally went with me everywhere when I was a child. I mean literally everywhere and when you then had your own child after your experiences with your mother. My understanding is that You didn't have much of a relationship with your father but more so with your mother and then your experiences with the a chimpanzee mothers flow for instance. How did you think about mothering or parenting? I I imagine a lot of it was very primal drive. That was created new. But what did you decide? Were there any decisions based on what your Mother did with you or what? You observed in flow and others that affected your parenting style or mothering style. You know. Sneha Julio baby tight I'm really an when when I was pregnant. I Two five Mother Rain Nuggets in Africa. I by the way mom raised me. I don't just fought with elaborate. That actually has some really sound advice but I also thought about flow and all those three examples along with as you say assaultive instinct because after the baby was born of course. I adored him that comb Jane Forgotten. What a gorgeous baby was essentially and. Jonty anyway so what I learned from the Chimp. Mothers just like us. There are good and bad mothers and the good chimp. Mother's like mine support that child even if they know they're going to get attacked. They will run to rescue their child from danger. And the offspring of those now we can look back and find that they tend to do better. They more assertive more confident. The males reach a higher position. The hierarchy probably simul offspring and the females. A better mothers but the one thing that I really took away from from Flow and the other chimp mothers. They love to play with their babies would spend hours playing with them and I thought yes. I'm GonNa have fun with my baby too. I think so too mother's Day lying on my back and sort of dangling. Grab from my feet and tickling him and things like that so I had a lot of fun with him and that came through chimps. How did he get the name? Grub very silly. He was born about the same time as little chimp could Goblin and Goblin was a very messy eater. I mean all the other chimps would tumble around playing come out sleek and black. And he had he'd have every burr around Dr his his hair and one case he got hold of a very big banana. It was about as big as him and he's eating it but you know he thought too much so he takes a mouthful large Michael. He spits it into his hand. He looks at it. And then he smashes the hand with a banana space at my son. he was a message to tweet. Didn't want to be weaned and he didn't like baby food and he would do much like Goblin. He was complete mess with it and so it became Goblin Goblin grump and then my son became grumbling. He's real name is probably nightmares. Roughly UH and in in in the film Jane. I'm referring to for people listening in. We don't have to spend a ton of time on this. If you prefer to discuss other things but I I found myself wondering after Grubb was really raised in the Bush and Had this natural existence at at some point the decision was made to help him socialize and be educated and I remember the footage in this film of walking down the street hand in hand in London. What was it like for him going from these all natural environments to that urban environment and being dropped off at school and just as the time after that he was dropped off you know he was quite a bit of time on note in verse us in Nairobi and we did go to school last. Wasn't that you and also my mother had been out visiting twice so he knew very very well and when you went back to England he wasn't just dumped in the school. He went to live where I am now in this house. I'm actually in the room. And so he was with an extended family and he la actually loved school. So you know it wasn't it. It's pseudo sounds brutal but it more brutal for me than him to see enjoyed school and I felt that I shouldn't have let him go. But I wouldn't have non family hadn't been there wasn't a very loving home and it wasn't really that strange. How you relate to being alone. It seems that you're very comfortable. Incredibly comfortable spending time solitary by yourself Certainly in Africa. That seemed to be the case. A how do you relate to that? I think that being alone is something many people. Fear How do you think about it relate to it you know the Child? I was ending hours alone out the guards watching insects with my dog. Going up and down the former to actually really good training. Gumby it's a different and suspend hours up in the top of my favorite tree which I'm looking at right now Beach is a beach tree. And I felt up near the buds on Costa I. I don't know a wonderful feeling being alone being alone in the forest in gumby absolute bliss and the biggest problem with my life on the road is that I have so little time alone. So hotel rooms come to be a haven in a way because I can shut and lock the door. I'm alone and do you find that you recharge by yourself or what. What is what is your experience like by yourself. I know that might sound like a strange question but many people busy themselves to avoid being alone are feeling alone. What what What does it feel like for you to be alone? Just feels really piece. It means that I can think my own thoughts I can do things like reading. I think being a child growing up without TV in a reading reading much less busy than watching a TV show. And I. I think it's very sad that so many children don't get to read more enough oldest television all the time you know. I was in love with chosen and when mom saved up to take me to probably the first Johnny Weissmuller film that came over. Great treat FA- J.J. Took me an after a little while I started to cry jets. Take me out yet. What emphasis the matter? I said but that wasn't Tarzan because as there was no TV. No movies I had my own. Tauzin that I fell in love with wasn't jumping. Weisman would have that opportunity anymore. Because right from the beginning that deluge with wisdom information of how they should see the world the you you strike me as someone with not just unique perspectives on the world but a unique capability in sharing them through not not just storytelling and sheer endurance. But also a high degree of of compassion and this is all a way of leading up to a question related to something you mentioned earlier and that is you just a handful of days ago really a turned eighty six and you seem as sharp as ever as busy as ever. Someone on your team was saying that you they they're impression is that you seem to work from six am to ten. Pm with the exception of a dog. Walk in the middle to. What do you attribute you the maintenance of or maybe even increase of your mental clarity and sharpness and endurance? For such a long period of time people obviously inherited very good genes from my father. Actually that was a major contribution he made to who I am. A lot of the rest of it came from but he had he was tough and strong He could endure so he was in the war anyway. what do I attributed to? While I don't actually think people say do you have do you exercise. Do you meditate. What what food. What Diet and on and on like that. What supplements I see. Well I you know I just eat what's around I don't want to eat very much. I don't care about food. I don't take any supplements I don't have a special diet except time could you -Tarian or when I'm at home now Vegan And I don't have time to do exercise you as being just. The airports walking was the dog. Now yes but he's old and he's the only goal I've ever met who doesn't like walking. And even when he he didn't he's a whip it smell like cat morning honestly. It was like taking a reluctance snail out for a walk. It's because well I mean if you think about things and I've always loved writing. I think that's very important. I didn't want to be assigned to snow. Wanted to be a naturalist live with animals. Like books about them and so I've always loved writing. My mother loved writing to cut. I have a story somewhere confined it now. I dictated to her when I was five and upset. Charming little story by Gerard with the neck. So long he'd reach up to the moon that's why it was always animals. Uc So telling stories thinking about stories that used to write a lot of poetry And just you know right now when I was younger what going to study chimps would mean that I'd be having this life and become thanks to becoming a certified calm when it first happened. I was really really disturbed this because you know why would people thinking about me like that was just me was unlucky person but then I realized well if people recognize me because of geographic and and come up once a signature of Selfie now Make use of it and be nice to them and smile at them and give them a brayshaw until him about roots shoes so there was a time when as I went around the US you could see the root shoot groups bringing up in like comment to the tail but obviously was look back on my life. Honestly Tim and I see that stages and the end of the state was across roads and it never seen. If I consciously made a decision it just was something that happened to change me and I think of made the right decision and I meant to be here and I meant to be doing this. Nut gives me extra. I suppose endurance to cope with it. I can't passionately about future. The Environment Animals Jovan and supposed because I think a lot I gained wisdom. I hope I want to share it. I think you're doing a fantastic beyond fantastic job and one thing I've also noticed and gathered from people who work with you on your team and seen in videos. Is that people many fans of yours. Many people you you encounter become very emotional in your presence. They might break down in tears. For instance that is not always the case with figures who are well-known. How would you explain that? Or why do you? Why do you think that's the case that so many people get so emotional when they meet you? Look at piloted a lot and I Austin they seem to know and then they apologize. I know no don't apologize. It's something that some unreasonable. I inspire these. Tia's I ask them why they why that crying they will. I never thought I'd see you. I can't believe I'm seeing. I'm so happy to be to be here. And you made my dream come true and I suppose I don't know. My grandmother used to cry every time she was happy. Seems like that seems like you make a lot of people happy and perhaps it is. I mean as a messenger of hope in many respects that you give people hope I think that There's in some respects a real shortage of hope in in many people's minds and assume spend so much time evening gloom and doom and that is a hell of a lot of gloom and doom. I know but there's also such wonderful things happening am sharing the good stories of successes The nobility of so many people self sacrifice which we're seeing with the corona virus to Then then people realize all is not loss still a lot that we can do to make the subject of wild and automate chooses always at least one on often more people who come up and say I had lost hope but I promise you. I'm going to do my bit. Thank you for giving me some hope again and the job of mine of giving people hope is is a really important one right now right now more than perhaps before and it's so compelling. I think not just because you're good at giving people hope but also because you are in a way living proof and the poster child for what hope can enable you to do if that makes any sense. You're not just a passive commentator giving lip service to hope. I mean you are a case study in. How much fuel and endurance in part hope can provide. I think that's at least for me. Why it's so compelling and convincing and and inspiring so thank you for that. You said that your friend told you to teach your children to be to be optimistic. Then it's it's really teach them up but you can tell stories until stories about people and encourage them and support them. I mean so. Many parents have set views on what they want to be. And the less like it from my mother is it was. Nobody was thinking about going to Africa living with animals when I wanted to accept a few explorers you know who wanted to shoot them and put them in museums but when everybody laughed at me and said I'd never get there was just a girl. It was a war. We didn't have money. Mom said if you really want something like this. You're going to have to work really really odd. Take advantage of every opportunity. And if you don't give up you will find a way to do some do that or something. Something else that you really really want to do that story I that was done. I take an share with young people everywhere especially in disadvantaged communities and I wish mom knew how many people have said Jane Bank. You taught me that because you did it. I can do it to you have so many projects and opportunities ahead of you before I perhaps tie to close with a description of a few things that you have coming and then tell people where they can find out more about you and certainly follow along with your continued adventures. I'd be curious to ask if you had a billboard metaphorically speaking that could get a message out to billions of people could be a word of phrase a question and image really anything. What might you put on the billboard member that you make a difference every single day perfect? That could not be couldn't be more perfect. Dr Jane Goodall. You have a new documentary. This is certainly continuing to showcase the incredible work you do. This is Jane Goodall subtitled the hope which premiering Earth Day. That's this April twenty second nine eastern eight central on Nat Geo that she a wild Mundo. It is a two hour documentary. Special that will take viewers through chapters of your journey in sixty years since you're groundbreaking discoveries and Gumby researching while chimpanzees including your activism creation of your nonprofit organization and where and also where people can find more about you Jane Goodall Dot. Org that is the Jane Goodall Institute Jay Gi and Roots and shoots Richard Schutz Dot Org. That is your youth program along with your current efforts to inspire the next generation and I would go a step further and say not. Just efforts but successes. It's tremendously inspiring. Not just not just because of the ethos but the actual effect that you are having. It's just remarkable people can find you on social media. You're doing some very fun. Things like storytime with Dr Jane. But instagram. That is at Jane Goodall. Inst- like institute. I N S T twitter Jane Goodall inst- and same on facebook Jane Goodall inst- and then the roots and shoots is the same on facebook instagram and twitter. The handle is at roots and shoots. This has been such a tremendous honour and pleasure for me to spend so much time with you Appreciate your your generosity in granting the interview providing time and also really keeping up the good fight and being a purveyor spreader of hope in a world where it is so easy to succumb to despair and hopelessness. It's it's just tremendous. It's it's really a gift that you are providing so I hope that that you're able to feel that and let that sink in at times but I appreciate you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I want to thank you to meet a chance to chat to you. Like to buy lots and lots of people sometimes a bit boring. But I haven't been a tool board to into you so thank you. That really means so much and please keep it up. I will do my best to get your message. Your work this interview to many millions of people who hopefully will in turn share it and spread it because I think that that hope really is the foundation here upon which so much else depends and for everyone listening. I will have everything in the show notes links to everything we discussed at Tim. Dot blog forward slash podcast and Dr Jane Goodall. Thank you so much and I hope we get to meet in person someday. She'll we down to parents. Hey guys this. Is Tim against a few more things before you take off number one then. This is bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from every Friday? That provides a little more soul of fun before the weekend and five. Friday's every short email. Where I share the coolest things I've found. Or that have been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that have discovered it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of Weird Shit that somehow dug up in the world of the Esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends for instance and it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend so if you want to receive that check it out. Just go to four hour. Workweek DOT COM. That's four Hour Work Week. Dot Com all spelled out. And just drop in your email and you'll get the very next one and if you sign up. I hope you enjoyed. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln Marketing Solutions these days. The million messages per minute not enough hours in the day. How'd you really catch people's attention? This WILLINGTON can help with Lincoln ads. You can catch the right professionals. The right people at the right time. And I'll tell you how I'm using them personally in a minute. 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Dr. Jane Goodall
"Yeah i love central american. When i was a little kid i had a little club. Was jealous of my older brother for being boy scouts cub scouts. Because that was that young that i started a central american club years later. I got to go to costa rica. I had been fascinated by it because of nash. I love national geographic. I loved animals. And for some reason the the coolest one seemed to live in costa rica so years later when i got to go there i had a day there with my frame stuffy supporter of the show and our lives and hopefully he's listening. He doesn't support us now. Financially happened no or the emotionally emotionally. Yes that's right. he's benefactor. No but i got to go there with james and a bunch of other friends. And i think it was. The best day of my life was the day that i got to interact with monkeys spider monkeys. I don't know if i've ever really been happier. And i don't think these are things you're supposed to do. I don't think it's good for the monkeys but got it was a day. I'll never forget my point. Is i love. Monkeys should seek out monkeys more often. I know it was that great dino. I seen footage of that day. And i've never seen you happy. Yeah it was like a pig and ship it was like a maniacal little kid like happy maniacal. Okay well speaking of good maniacal. Here's the show. You could be a dream. Life good injury. You're listening to life is short. I'm your often likely happy host justin long night injuring sweetheart do With me as always my brother christian who also you like monkeys. I is it fair to say. They're not your favorite animal. Who doesn't like now who well. They're so cute well. I don't crave a bad experience that you had you. Don't i'm sure i would enjoy it. But they're welcoming little. Yeah well this now is. Because i don't know what if they would potentially hurt me right. I mean these were little. It's true and with many primates. They they could. I mean they're cable unpredictable. Yes yeah well these would be. I would probably end up doing it if i got talked into it. But i wouldn't be there'd be part of me. That was apprehensive. Until i know what you mean and i'm sure i was the same because these are there's something about looking into the eyes of a monkey the issue. There's just seemed so humid in their hands. Mean the way they grasp there is something momentarily there was. I remember them. I'm trying to put myself back there momentarily unsettling about it because they do have such human features in in appendages that it almost feels like they could do while pharrell. They're like so. It's like if a little hairy person like just jumped on your head you know you'd be like wouldn't like it. I know i know so. There is a moment of adjustment. Like wait a minute. Are they gonna like rip out my eyeball all of a sudden they just gonna reach down smack me in the face which would have been cute but but with a larger primate like a chimpanzee ansi or chimpanzee. Oh i know. I say chimpanzee you say chimpanzee. No you just said. Japan japan though i did yeah i that was a mistake. I didn't mean to but anyway like that. They are capable of real. I heard once that that was either. A chimpanzee or gorilla could palm paul find new year to coconuts and hold them out on either side of itself like stretch out its arms and and crush them with both of them at in one move That seems difficult. Imagine their strong. My god that guerrillas pound for pound for pound the strongest animal in the world and they only eat vegetables. Pretty cool back two chimps. Yep why are we talking about chimps. I will tell you because. I'm so excited to do this. It's gonna take me a while to find my way to introduce her. Because i think this. I think this is by far our most distinguished guest at least the one the most distinguished to me the one i'm most excited about and The one i can't believe agreed to show our guest. Today is the distinguished the legendary dr. jane goodall. She's dame she's our first dame. Oh yeah. I actually didn't know that but it's inouye surprising. Judi dench has not returned our calls. Oh we could get helen mirren. You know why because we know her son rio anyway. It's not about you know. Let's be satisfied with one day time one day a year. That's a pretty good dame quotient. Jane goodall is like you said a legend. She is the world's foremost expert on chimpanzees She's a brilliant anthropologist in primatology and we are. I second your Excitement about having her on the show. It's what a what a coup i. Oh we got her to do. It's monkey like exuberance. It's it's i'm saying that specifically it's the similar exuberance displayed day. I got to believe monkeys psych There should be a word for that. But but yeah. I was just thrilled and i had seen her documentary. I've known her since i was. I'm not known her personally. Her a known. Ever since. I was a kid i mean. She's reading about her and her work and how important that can't be. It can't be overstated. and so i'm going to save a lot of it. 'cause i you'll hear me. Just obviously i i. Gosh i you can't help but gush around her and she's we'll talk about an shows a podcast of her own among many other things that she does. She's one of the busiest human beings on the planet she it's called hope cast And she Travels over three hundred days a year. Of course she hasn't in the last year but if you watch this documentary butter. The most recent one is called the hope. It's on disney plus not an ad. But it's really incredible Any any footage of her. I'm sure most of you've probably seen something of her and her work. But this documentary was really moving. And it's the most up-to-date one. So that's the one i'd recommend but it is. You'll see how much she works. How much she travels and how committed she is to this. 'cause in what strong did incredible convictions. She has so. We'll get into all of that now. And i feel like i should save some of the xavier gush. Okay all right because you'll get plenty of it after this my my talk with the extraordinary incredibly important dr jane goodall injuring sweetheart Can you tell little like low blood sugar. I can see it in your eyes. Yeah fading normally. When i'm in the state. I look around from a perfect snack and it was nowhere to be found. We don't have any with us now just sad because they're in a refrigerator. Many many many miles away right now which feels sad to me because i love the perfect snag lied to. They have to be refrigerated well because they're not filled with preservative crap that allows them to be out of the refrigerator. They're filled with just non. Gmo organic not. I don't mean just. I mean just good stuff. That's what i was gonna say. I'm fading because my buddy they're made with freshly ground peanut butter organic honey And twenty organic superfoods so perfect. Snacks really have a variety of products. And flavors of their protein bars and they also these delicious peanut butter cups for smaller sweeter snack. I know you're thinking Those protein bars. I don't like the charkhi kinda grows that consistency. I don't like the slightly chemical tastes. well guess what. You won't get any of that you'll get cookie dough like texture. Its cremate full of flavor. They're so good. I love the blueberry cashew flavored. That are in the dark chocolate sea salt. Coconut coconuts maize on right now. Perfect snacks is offering fifteen percent off. Your online order. Just go to perfect snacks dot com slash long shop. The refrigerated snacks at perfect snacks. Dot com slash. Long today to get fifteen percent off your order fifteen. We want you to be prepared for snacktime so good a perfect snacks dot com slash long. 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If you or someone you know has a gambling problem. Call a virginia problem gambling helpline at eight eight eight five three to thirty five hundred again meet again yes first of all. I'm so grateful that you're here. And that i i know that tech frustration because i am probably more in depth than anyone at it so i understand how i thank you for it and finding us. I'm just sorry. I kept you waiting. Not at all. I i understand it and and please don't feel bad it's just truly an honor so your podcast is called hope cast and Hope cast and i see that word seems to come up quite often in your work In things about you Just saw an incredible documentary called the hope about about you and your work. What what what is it about after all the things. You've seen all the many tragic things you've seen. What is it that the key that allows you to retain that hope. Well i'm i've got. I've got this reasons to hope. And one is the energy and commitment of young people and they know the problems nam power to act changing. The world is speak a routine to program in sixty-eight countries growing all the time under two thousands of groups kindergarten through university everything in between men they Brain we're coming up. Scientists beginning to come up with ways to Enabled us to live in greater harmony with nature and we can use our brains to lead a light ecological footprint and thirdly the resilience of nature if nature a chance and she'll take over a place we've destroyed and finally the indomitable spirit the people who tackle what seems impossible it would give up quite often succeed if entry. Even it's not in their lifetime and is that what continues. This must be a strange time for you. I know i was talking to sean about this that you are. It's incredible how much you travel and you're still. I've heard of our three hundred days a year. Obviously not now is is doing this. We're doing this remotely via zoom. How does that feel now to have been experiencing this pandemic to have been home and to have been continuing your work but in this this type of way what what is what is this like for you now. Well i missed a contact with people. I met my friends a virtual hug. Gora virtual toast same the real thing and It's much more exhausting. You know it's nonstop since my zoom today and the while along call after supper. 'cause comme now exists among the you know the silver lining i breach millions more people in many many more countries than they could have if i was traveling. Just look you have to do. This is probably a silly question. But but dr goodell is it Are you able to zoom with the with chimps are chimps able to do something like this. Oh no it's had to one of our stank tweet chimps with me by end. They would be to recognize people on on a screen. So oh they would you. Could you could do it. But that must be contact that you really miss two chimps. What was your earliest memory in terms of gravitating towards animals. The way that you have in in terms of beginning that that passionate you have. I was born that way my i i. I do well if not memory but mom told me that when i was one and a half she came up to say goodnight. She got all these earthworms and my bed with older earth and everything and shane. You're looking so intently that he looked so you were wondering how do they move without legs but anyway being a wonderful mother supportive mother. She didn't get mad older mask. She just said we'd take them into the garden because they'll die. We need them kia. Wow so you were always even as just fascinated wanting to know how they everything you could know about them you wanted to do. You have pets. did you have Were you just always around them. Were you always exploring. Well we had was always a dog and a cat. And then when i got older the guinea pigs in the hamster we have rescued tortoises. That listen piloted but you out and we got a big garden here. I'm actually in the house where i grew up. And you know the trees. I used to climb. So i was that. What can squirrels and birds insects. I love butch insects right in the beginning. I don't know just met way. Wasn't that incredible. And then at what and your mother was. Also the one that encouraged you. That told you this is a beautiful story that you talk about how she said you're you're gonna have to work a little bit harder Because women at that time You know that wasn't a path that was really possible women Could you talk about that. And how How she encouraged you to set out on that path. Well it'll began really when i read tauzin aged ten. I wasn't a fan. But i was really jealous. Is jade anyway contract. So that was when my dream began will grow up. Go to africa live with wild animals and write books them and everybody loved. You know africa's far away you don't have a we didn't have money and posted was during world war two. So and your jessica calls. Don't do that sort of thing back then. When i was ten nobody was going out. Living with wild animals watching them. Nobody not even men so it was mom who said if you really want this sort of thing guy have to work really hard take advantage of every opportunity a maybe if you don't give up find a way. So that's how she encouraged may by not temping knee down. It's incredible and then jane detrick. How did you come to know dr leaky. Who who invited you to to go to africa for the first time no. I was invited by school. Friends parents divorced in kenya. I had to save up money. What can a hotel around the corner bath as a waitress until i saved enough money. It didn't go to university because we couldn't afford it. And so i got out with my friend than somebody said jay. If you're interested in animals he should make louis leakey so. Although i was very shy i was so excited my cold up and i said could i speak to dr deke. Said i'm leaky. What you want. He hated the rude so plucking. Mike courage i said. Can i talk to you about animal Anyway he said yes. And i read it breath i could and i think he was impressed by what i did know muslim much to learn in those days so he took me on As his secretary to start win. So i think gradually he realized that was the person he'd been looking for a chimpanzee. I would have studied mice anything to be while. Oh i wondered. Yeah i wondered what it was about so it just happened to be because he his it was that his focus on the time he was searching for the fossilized remains of early humans. And fussell you can tell a lot about what the creature look like and how it moves muscle attachment. Swear on the gives you an idea of the diet but behavior doesn't post lights so he thought well years ago that was an apelike human like common ancestor to apes and us. And if jane finds behavior in chimps that similar or the same behavior in humans today may be it's come directly from a common ancestor. That man he could imagine early. Humans behaving kissing embracing holding hands one another swaggering. Using to unpick you. Yes and it's your work. That was groundbreaking of course at the time. And we have now just come to. I've grown up in a time where that has been been accepted that That behavior so human like but but you describe it as being something that we had We possessive over that kind of behavior of that kind of behavior Using tools expressing affection deep. What are your recollections of like with when you first sought when you first saw that kind of behavior and and how did you. How did you find the chimpanzees when you set out when you went to be for the first time. How did you find yourself. An how were you able to ingratiate yourself. Well festival when i first got i was made to take somebody with me wasn't allowed to govern the mountains alone and the chimps ran away ran away runaway and i thought well if i could be by myself it might be better so eventually they thought i was a bit crazy but failed parities british back. Then lost crumbling. Outpost of the Infirm manganese Was then and i'm so they let me go on my own. As long as i told them. Roughly where it was going and one chimp began to lewis's fear of me. David greybeard is up there somewhere next to the elephants and david greybeard on this one day. Four months into my study at it had six months mondaythe and that he was using a tool and making to switch at that time. Science said the of humans use of make tools. So that was the breakthrough. dr goodall. Did you have were you. Capture only carry. I prefer if you called me dr. Long okay. Chain thank you. So you're four months in. Are you beginning to hope. Are you beginning to lose. Hope how do you hold onto the hope of. Maybe that you may be able to get close enough to them after four months. Well i knew given time. But i could just as i always had with any animal. Did i have time. I was getting you know really anxious and i think you know for the first four months. My mother was there. Did you know that my my the the british authorities refused to me to be alone. I had to bring some of the white woman with me and mom volunteer. She boosted morale you know. She said she pointed out from its peak. I discovered with my binoculars. I was actually learning. Even that was exciting. I was learning about that calls food. They eat kind of way around alone or little books. And they all gather together when this good food leading that kohl's and so she boosted. My maral aren't sure were you. Was she fearful. Were you fearful. Was there a sense of trepidation that perhaps if you've got to close they might They might attack you know but running away at the very conservative. but they've never seen a white eight recall and so intact Dr greybeard when david greybeard. He hasn't gotten his doctorate but but when he when he was finally comfortable enough with you how was how close were you able to get to him. And and then. How long did it take for others to see his to recognize his behavior. And and understand that. You're safe when i saw itching. Termites toes four months still couldn't get close to him at all But i could get close of the ovens and he didn't run many so me. So i i would say six seven months could begin to get you know thirty feet or something like that and he did help because if he was in a group with others ready to run and he just sat there. They sorta look from him to me. I suppose they thought well. She called me so scary after beef. Yeah and then. He came in her camp and stole bananas. That was the beginning of the banana offering. This is now you have leverage. That's right it's like. I always think it's like the anthropologists to use to go to uncontested tribes layout beads things. So my bananas which wouldn't do today. It's not done but back then. I think all the studies use that sort of method. Not gonna why. Why is it not done today. They don't want to It's just a matter of getting too close or or the chimps shouldn't become comfortable with humans. Well we now know that they can catch diseases catch sales and You know it doesn't interfere with their behavior. Obviously coming to a new food. But i was interested in the difference between individuals eventually all the individuals have the same lower bananas. Say it didn't matter to me yes And and how long did you stay that first time and once your mother left it was at that point. Was there ever any sense of. I don't know why am hung up on this but was there a sense of fear that you're now truly by yourself wonderful. I mean i missed mountain. But on onus of i've always loved being on my own there was a cook. We have cook dominic and when left leaky sent his very trusted. Both driver from lake victoria and he was out stately. Wise wonderful man assam. Mom didn't mind leaving when she knew he was coming in and she must have been very proud of you. She must've sounds like she was a remarkable person to it was amazing bassiest. He has changed pointing right behind her. I love that you're still in the house that you grew up in this. This really beautiful into family. My sister lives here permanently with her family. So you've had people around during the corinthian you it's not been an isolating experience kurd minded. No well that's how you describe your time with the chimpanzees. Gumbo you describe it as it sounds idyllic. It sounds also very quick spiritual the way. You're able to commune with nature. And you compare it to being in certain cathedrals In there that sense that When you go back there you are you immediately filled with that sense of spiritual connectivity. As soon as i'm on my own and the forest and it doesn't have to be gumby any any wild nature susu spiritual connection with whatever spiritual power is there is you raised with that January raised with spirituality in any sort of judeo christian. Yeah my grandfather. Who i never met. Who's clearly was wonderful. My mother's father. He was a congregational minister on though we went to claim religious. But no we went to church. Sometimes seth nate christmas and easter and some mom was very wise and she used to say to me. You know you were born into a christian family. So you worship god but you might have been born in egypt and you probably muslimeen worship allah or you might have been born in israel and then have Whatever they had juvenile whoever. So she's the kennedy one. God whatever name he or she is cold or whatever spiritual entity is so right from the beginning. She taught me this You know very very wise way of just thinking beyond the name of the religion and if you look at the root of all the major religions every single one they have the same golden rule. Do to us as you would have them do to you. That's right through everyone. Jane of some book is whole lot sweetheart christian. I took a road trip with chris. Fiancee margaret so. I was the third wheel But i was driving so it felt like less third wheel. I for one was looking forward to getting home to my purple pillow. Yeah they have a thing called. The grid is on the mattresses which we haven't tried yet but we imagined similar to the ina similar to the pillow stretch gel material. That's amazing lee supportive so the way it's designed this grid that you're talking about it doesn't trap air so the air is able to circulate and flow through it so you never get too hot right so it. The grid bounces back and forth as you move and shift. It's unlike memory which kind of just remembers everything. And that's why memory foam has those craters divots. Here's a way to try it with free. Shipping and free returns financing is also available. So right now you'll get ten percents off any order of two hundred dollars or more go to purple dot com slash long ten and use promo code long ten. That's purple dot com slash long ten promo code long ten for ten percents off any order two hundred dollars or more purple dot com slash. Long ten promo code long ten terms apply up terms always apply for meet again. Mm-hmm your connection with chimpanzees. How has that changed your the way you connect with humans. I think it helped me understand. Humans a bit better. You know what we have brought with us. From that ancient apelike human like common ancestor. But you know one day. I was out in the forest just alone and it was some tim's feeding high in the tree and i just had this strong feeling that you know we we put words into everything and so we talk about having a soul and we talk about reality. Set me up and i thought well it seems to me that this a spark of life spark of spark of spirit in every animal in every tree and in us and in us we call it so so i thought well if if i have a so i hope so goodbye. Vissel kobe's chimpanzee has a soul and we have company a very beautiful waterfall. Well several but this one full eighty feet and over the years and years and years. It's one groove in the solid rock and so a civil plunges eighty feet down into this shallow stream makes a roaring someone and the water displaces the air so it was always a breeze in the vibes at the side of the scored this channel swain and when the chimps approach not always but often the males start habra sling and they get normally they avoid the zuni about that deep they Upright in side side they bend down pick rox they may who event sometimes climb up the vines side the full push out in the spray and then at the end you see him on a rock looking up this stuff coming. It's always going so with here. And i think chimps had words if they could actually share the emotions and discuss them like weekend that might have led to an early animistic religion. You know worship and some stars sure well you can see them. You can see them moved. And wow that is a spouse say they share our sense. Wonder all wonder god to witness that what what what does that. Feel like to you to describe that to somebody who is i'm in awe just the secondhand version of what. What is that like the first time that you saw that human behavior the first time that you made that connection that chick. They're not only is their dna so closely related but their behavior and the way they show affection. What what did that feel. Like jane to to witness that firsthand. Well it was all magic. You know right at the beginning. I was so intent on collecting data. That i didn't relaxed enough to feel the wonder the magic apartheid was actually seeing. But then as as you know as i began to learn more than chimps relaxed than i had time to sit back and have these thoughts mystical. Almost bad i an Time and The the must serenity the and you were for the most part on your own so so it must have been meditative in. When do you think you'll be able to go back there and experienced that again. Well it's not the same now. It's not the same gun bay that it was you know the tourists coming and you know being having slightly funny knee icon. Climb high up and he will. I could but it would be kind of silly. Because i need when funny. I might slip. Then give everybody such problems with. Bring me down again so i can only see the chimps fellow. That's when they'll be surrounded with tourists. No ory so and gumby me getting in the forest wonderful. But it's just it's just different. It's wonderful but people who've never been there before they get the most amazing experiences and say it's one of the best times of their life. But then i've been so lucky to know it when it was really a night that yes yeah well and how did you relationship with The first chimpanzee. David greybeard the one that you i were able to make contact with. How did that relationship evolve. What was that process like. He was septic character he was he was a bowl later. He wasn't the top ranking male but when he moved off of like follow him he was very quick to reassure frightened. Young stole female. They'd come running up to him. They were frightened of some aggressive male or something and he'd hugged him. Oh pat them and he was very wise so so very very determined and if he didn't get his bananas come into the tent. Pull it apart. Wants shows the worst time behind the count. The quite a steep hill. Going up to a ridge between ballet's that's quite tall anyway. I was climbing up the and right at the top. I met david and he janus in camp. I wouldn't have been honor so he took my wrist slapping. Our giardi went quite fast. And i thought you even i'm going to trip and fall on top of him. Lovely though he is he'll be frightened stronger than me. But fortunately i managed to keep my feet but then will be going to the chem. I was on my own up there. But we had By then we'd had boxes may two chimps. It wasn't free pro. We have to go inside the building an latch men box with full open at. Tim could take the bananas. Well he went to whether been honest kmart and held me. I couldn't give him the bananas without and then he began to get angry. And you don't want david greybeard angry. I think oh my what. I think somebody arrived. Thank goodness go. Bananas are that's incredible. That's incredible and did you ever. I mean that's an example of Did you ever feel threatened. Certain maybe not by that chimpanzee but by others were times where you felt you got to close frodo. He's he disappeared. Kosice route the dark but he was a bully bullet of the chimps. Humans had the research station by then. He used to go out of his way to charge us. Push yourself are or the need stem on us but The two people he did it to most with me. Because i wasn't there all the time. By ben i went away and came back so i think every time i went back he had to prove all over again. The people's dominant domino's from amid but an of video for her and both of us a been in situations. Where had they done his normal thing pushing we would have died because of the edge of a precipice something like that and on those occasions do it really is so he knew the limits. He knew he certainly didn't want to kill you. Showing off proving dominant and jane. While that's happening to you have to just kind of go with it you do. You can't certainly fight back ridiculous. Yeah wow what and with other chimps like a david greybeard. Would they be able to protect you or no. Because he is in that order. He's they wouldn't want to read. I didn't time part of the group. I wanted to be an observer. Yeah yeah and when did you make actual physical contact at. What was that like was was that a very gradual thing and and how did that feel actually reach out and be able to touch them well at very few did i actually touch. David may be a first time. He took a banana from my hand. That was magic. And i could groom him and i could groom not to the of us flow and her family most of them. I didn't touch how do you. How do you discover those boundaries with flo in her family I what is that process like what. I'm sure it's very gradual. But but what was it like to actually get to that point where you could. You could groom them. Well i think the most up to grooming david the most wonderful experience with flo infant Five months just torturing you know they they develop slowly like to and he was looking at me. I was sitting on the ground and he came towards we flow bit worried still she had her hand around his tummy but she lets him come on. She had a little pouting face in which is a bit nervous. You came right up looking up with those big big is an to mine and he reached out and touched my nose. That was that was absolute magic absolute funded. She trusted me enough to have that series. Wonder who is she. I don't know have you seen that recent Movie that's getting so much claim might octopus teacher. The had no idea to. I've heard so much about it. Because i talked to the guy craig foster and he told me that he had much that same feeling when this octopus reached out and stroke his face with all news. Yeah well i now. I really need to see it When you have experiences like that that are I mean they're moving just to hear about. How does it feel cutting several decades later to when you began your work as an activist when you When you begin to discover exactly what's happening with research chimps and and The work that needs to be done in terms of deforestation. How does it feel to see chimps in in those conditions then and And was it was. Just being moved was being moved by their plight. having seen them that encouraged you too can break out of your comfort zone in terms of not like you say not really being the most social person and being a bit shy Did you feel then pushed to do that. Confidence that i helped put together in nineteen eighty six. And then i think it was six or seven Field sites across africa and so we decided to put together a conference to bring the chief researchers together for the first time may need to ask you know the chimp behavior differ in different. Environments is something like culture where behaviors passed from one generation to the next but we had a session on conservation and the session on conditions in secaucus lab that sort of thing and the shock exceeding the extent of deforestation in africa and chimpanzees being hunted for bushmeat and that sort of thing and then even worse really was seeing our closest living relatives. Who can live. There's in five foot by five foot cages in medical research ships. That was so awful worst of all. When i left that conference i was different. I just knew. I had to do something i had no idea what to do. I haven't a clue. But first of all i knew i wanted to help the lab chimps. I knew i had to go into a lab because you need to see with your own eyes to really talk being cleared. My pinkett was one of the hardest thing i've ever ever had to do. See these amazing beings and by five k. alone you describe It's very powerful in the documentary. You describe crying under your surgical mask. just weeping and one of the chimps. I think you say he's been there for fifteen years in isolated in this in this case for fifteen years reach reaches out in leipzig away. Works atten which probably made you cry even more anyway this long battle at many people joining but the run. No more American jobs now. It's incredible the way you've been able to reach people and you talk about you. Talk about that How how best to do activism And i thought this was especially in light of the way. A lot of people do it now on social media. There's so much anger there's so much division there's so much arguing Could you talk a little bit about what you've found to be the most productive way to To to be an activist and to really help these chimpanzees but also the people who live among them well. The lab situation was one where i just sat down and instead of being angry with the people doing that research i showed pictures of the gumby chimps talked about their behavior. Their personality came from people need to change from within africa. Well i got together. Some money and visited six different range. Countries were being studied my land a lot about what problems facing but at the same time i learned about the problems faced by so many of the african people you know the crippling poverty that lack of health and education they have good days of the land you in populations growing and then i flew over the tiny gumby national pakistani turkey five square kilometers and it had been part of this great equatorial forest belt when i arrived in nineteen sixty and it was the same in nineteen seventy then it began to change and when i flew a gumby and toward the end of eight nineteen eighty s. It was this tiny island of forest and all around as far as you could see back hills and that's when it hit me. These people too many of them vallance to support it too poor to buy food elsewhere. The farmland is overused an infertile. They are struggling to survive. We don't help them find ways making a living without destroying the bound by cutting the trees. The head groom of food have to cut the trees or make money from charcoal. So that's when the institute to carry take care to carry program began very holistic going into the twelve villages surround gumby with not arrogant white people but locally selected africans who they knew who will intend listen to the people. And what can we do to help. And that's how to carry began and it's now in a hundred and four villages through all of the chimp range. People have become partners in conservation. Sweet dead do you already know that. We're fans but like seltzer and bud. Light seltzer lemonade. Which we've recently try. But now there's something called the out of office variety pack. We were on vacation recently and when we got back one of the first things we didn't got home was sample these new. Bud light seltzer out of office. Flavors and i immediately felt transported back to vacation. And try one of these flavors classic line margarita. Mango my tie. 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Call virginia problem gambling helpline at eight eight eight five three to thirty thousand five hundred though again for me again was roots and shoots born of a similar idea of of wanting to educate the next generation and allow them to because started. Cory cory bowles similar programs in six southern african countries. So you have to raise money right and raised anita keep research going and to keep by the way institutes. That could help. Until i was traveling around the world and meeting so many young people seem to have nose job and they will either angry. They were deeply depressed Of way to step pathetic seemed care. When i asked them well. We feel like this because you've compromised futures nothing we can do about it. Well we have to compromise future. Have away and you hear we have inherited this planet from our ancestors. We borrowed it from our children. When you go you pay back. We've been borrowing stealing but not too late to do something about it. That's what they were wrong on. That square roots and shoots began and what what emboldened you to push forward with that message. I mean how again. How did you not lose your hope. What encouraged you I know you talked about four points. but in that moment what was it that what what what was the best way to show people that hope was possible. Well it sleep again. When twelve high school students from eight schools in salaam capital of tanzania. They came to my house and they were concerned about all kinds of different problems. You know environmental but also social like the street children cruelty to spray dogs. They have different problems and anyway. I told him to go find friends. Who felt will say we had a meeting about thirty s approach and that's when routes to was born main message every single one of us makes an impact every single day of some sort and we decided that every group and At work in clubs or groups in different schools they would they would choose. We wouldn't tell them they would choose a Help people protect help. Animals predict help the environment and because they get to choose at you listen to them. They're empowered and they roll up their sleeves and they get out what passions about taking action if they choose to do that passionate deposited But he comes in. You will do this or you will do that wig that sometimes they just don't care doesn't come from within our in the eight countries with members from kindergarten university everything in between a normal adults forming groups now like the staff of the big corporation. Well that's the remarkable thing is that you were able to reach out to and and took a lot of flack for it Reaching out to big corporations that might have seemed like it was against the your interests to reach out to oil companies and But you're able to use those relationships to then of foster and promote the more important message a greater message How would you encourage people to do that. To reach out to those that they disagree with now and How is social media. Play a part in that. And how can it hinder that well. First of all. I wouldn't take money from old. Etoile companies notes one tests debate one. Let's actually trying to do it better. And the one. We started with conoco before it before it amalgamated with. What is it now phillips. It was very very forward thinking. I did take another oil company. That forward thinking they were unfortunately costal and They they didn't survive on their own but so basically i was afoot this opportunity to get money from them to start out sanctuary in congo. And so i thought it'll through. And i thought well you know i'm buying oil. I mean unpaying planes. 'cause our electric everything. So how hypocritical to pay money but refused to take money from the mix. It might make them look better and his. You know these people who are so militant they. What i was. Attacked was attacked sitting down and talking to the people in the medical research. I don't talk to people. How can you ever expect them to change. One lovely thing about roots in shoot they become very passionate about changing their parents their grandparents and some of them are the head of a lab or a ceo of a big company in government. We seeing those changes with kids. Give you even more hope and fill you with the must make you so happy. I can only imagine Jane beyond giving money now to these causes to Roots and shoots and jane goodall institute What what can people do to help. You talked about the choices that everyone makes every day. is it is it as simple as Just examining the choices that you make. And and being more conscientious of veteran impact. Everybody made ethical choices and what they buy. I mean did it on the environment. Was it cruel to animals. Is it cheap because child slave labor. You know it's equitable If everybody made those choices the world would be so much better but that can never happen until we alleviate poverty because when you're really poor you buy the cheap plastic. That's new way to survive. You know we've got to alleviate poverty to reduce our unsustainable lives lifestyle i mean mine's unsustainable nuns. Come to i. I do my best. But i know that i'm using now. Probably more than my fair share natural resources. Which are find. The problem is thinking that that can be unlimited economic development on a planet with finite natural resources and the growing population if we carry on with business as usual some things but to go and in terms of resources how to do that. How best to achieve that. How how to put that Mentality into practical effect Where can people go. What what resources would you recommend. Well we're putting together a website that has oldest information on it but you just have to get out there on the internet is all there. You know what i mean. One thing we can do. That truly will help the environment Less or no mate. A dairy in because the factory farms where billions of animals living in absolute misery cruel beyond dreams. They have to be fed cleared areas to grow the grain fossil fuel use to get the grade. The animals the the twa may to the table water so scarce in some places now climate change lots used wasted turn turning vegetables to animal protein and finally they'll producing methane gas in my digestion though it's also with all disrespect to animals and nature the led to this pandemic and deployment change and loss biodiversity. Yeah that's So that's a very good place to start eating less. Hopefully eating none something. I want to implement in my life so thank you for the reminder and I you know. I could talk to you for hours. I know your time is limited. I'm so grateful for it. I just have a do a lightning round chain like we ask everybody the same kind of quick answer questions. If you if you would indulge me out and best okay. All right and i Most apologized for the first one to be asking. Somebody is distinguished as yourself this question. I'm wondering what is your most commonly used emoji if you use emojis. I can't believe i'm asking you us took a long time to walk out. Why people will putting these peculiar little red dots or over their email. So i'm afraid i'm old bloods. No that's That makes sense I'm now imagining. What the chimpanzees. What what they would think of those emojis. And because i know they communicate a lot through their facial gesture gestures tank little in trying to get somebody to do a chimpanzee mode cheaper chill but i really okay and chain how. How would it chimpanzee communicate. I don't it's something negative. I don't do that so way with the question. This okay. yeah they can learn up to four hundred of scientists by depth people. Oh my god and they can communicate not just bad teacher but with each other and you get an amazing glimpse at how the mind works if promoters like some of them love drawing this young chimps would be learning sign language. She was five years old. She loved toy. Choose to cup of the page. Nate nice circled sympathy on this occasion. She got this piece of paper. Had teacher was the other side of the table and she went like this. The that said James murky and arm so that she handed it to the teacher and teach canoe finishing signed. Can you finish. And she looked at it and handed it back said finished signing finished so the teacher said what is it that you know what he said. It's a ball we to a bowl like that. She threw the movement bouncing. Oh i guy that that they connected those thoughts. That's it unbelievably advanced. Or oh my god and where was this gym. Where did you is there different. Is there a different level of Ability depending on where a chimp comes from depending on the environment in which they're raised for. Yeah i mean it would get wild chimp Base timpson a sign language program by twenty thirty years ago now and they were being told sign language we tax is the way reaching their lives. The captive they not some stimulation otherwise they get bored. That was the one thing about the lab chimps in this tiny agent. Nothing nothing nothing though. I persuaded lab. Let send in a young man very tough young man to survive it and he designed enrichment activities like putting food in a tube and they got sticks. They could push it out that sort of thing to kind of mimic the way they retrieve termites and things for them to play with and broncos so they could pull off believes anything to alleviate boredom not something. We have introduced into seuss around the world. Now because kim richmond. It's incredible that the work you've done. How many lives. You've enriched Through that work that's incredible. It must have taken everything in you to not when you saw that. Those conditions in these animals you loved being treated like it must have been so difficult to withhold your anger and to not express anger towards these people that were like that you know get doesn't get you a new place sometimes just to wake people up but once you can them up then you have to well. That's my way anyway. You have to reach them. You have to talk to them. Better stories stories. Yeah personal stories. And that's how you were able to reach Mean it took a long time but you did at the nih You know it's funny. I just being with you. Just through zoom. I can feel them a great deal of You have a great deal of such magnetism such empathy and celek. No i am well. I'd like to thank whoever your mom. Whoever endowed you with that In those chimpanzees who It's been a gift to the world. them I'm sorry. I i don't know how to make a segue into these other again. These you can just rifle through these. Because i know we're running out of time if we're not out of it already a sport that you've really enjoyed jane If you could be an athlete if if you enjoyed athletics at all. Is there one that you gravitate toward. I never been really into school. No okay let's have If if you have one snack food for the rest of your life something that you've really enjoyed that you took with you and you travels well. It used to be chocolate. But i've been up for quite some time of the year and the chocolate is typically knights. Mostly so i don't know a luckily i don't care about food you don't have now. It's not although. I do have to say that bacon food well cooked with good Nothing but nothing my whole life. I love your chimp lamp. By the way. Oh i was wondering yes. It's it's i. I found it somewhere. I forget where But i love chimps. And i love it atop banana a whimper. It's it is a it's a sad s- on what the young ones doing. They're being denied suckling. When that four five years old. Oh wow oh now. I'm going to hear that differently. Then why he wonders who. I'm made jane who who who i noticed you. All you do it on the intake to like a. Why could it's difficult to You call it. I'm sorry who hit a pen. Who and what about fear. How do they express free now. Now now when you witnessed that behavior how did you did. You just audio recorded it. You would film them doing that. How did you record that. Well i didn't start with. I just recorded it my brain. That won't be making films to the geographic hugo camera record. Wow i'm i'm mostly because i think i love the sound of laughter the most how did you. How did you first discover that. Wh- do you recall your introduction to them laughing when they typically shabbir of course make sense and if you what is your favorite fruit. No fruit is something that you love fruit. I dunno i love mangoes really good mangoes and a really good. But we don't get really good bananas in america in europe but in africa where they have a village near us twenty five different kinds of banana. Some of those are very sweet I love theory. Well you know that very smelly taste what i've never had it. I will now per your recommendation. Try some duran. And i if you who would you want to play. I'm sure they are going to make one if they haven't already to play you an actress to play in in your bio pic. Wait if you add your thought about this. But i don't know that trump is. I don't have time to watch movies much. So i don't know people are when they say. Oh you just got to be joking. When i said that i wouldn't recognize robert redford or something like that and i said no because i don't well i know how much travel i know how you how much you work that makes sense to me. I doubt that. Yeah that makes it when you were a girl when you were growing up did you watch. Was that something you enjoy. It was during the war Have pages and we could knelt couldn't afford the cinema and saved up for take me. I think i was eleven and it was one of the first johnny weissmuller movies that so she saved up to take about fifteen minutes. I began to cry loudly. She had to take me out. Gibb with episode matter. Sympathetic wasn't tough. You see in those days when no tv so it was children deprived of that now so all the books i read. I had my own imaginary people. Do you prefer. I know you said you you've had dogs do prefer dogs or cats as pets all my teacher. When i was a child my teacher beautiful as a lab is. They're my favorites can see him a little bit. Is that your mom he is he was a. That is your mom. What was her name jane. Well house we'll stay mabini but she was known as van and van van. We nickname was myth. Myth that we named a chimp miffed What a great great trivia. And i'm so grateful to her and She just created the most beautiful person. I'm beyond grateful to you for your time and your your work Thank you well. Thank you to live really love talking to you. I hope we can meet in person. It would be an honor and jane. If there's anything i can do. I'm dying to go Work and see one of your roots and shoots places that you set up anything i can do to help. Spread your message because the most killed by the car sped. Kfi all helps a lot. Yes and And anybody else to say that you'd seen shoes anybody with a child can start routes and you don't have to be formal can just be two kids getting together and saying we want to change the world until they decide. What do we liked them to register so that we can share. But it doesn't cost you anything. Okay good to know we'll We'll talk about. It will continue to talk about it and I i will always be grateful to you for for this and all of your work. Well thank you very much love talking to you unless i say we must meet posters it would. It would be my honor. Thank you look forward to talk to the family and all the earthworms so that happened. Yes it is surely did and i. I'm so grateful that it did. She sounds like I couldn't get this out of my head. And i don't know if remember this reference. But she sounds like older wendy in hook. Oh my gosh. Malaria kind of In the animated with no not animated hook. The robin williams. I don't know it and get it. Okay never mind. Wendy wasn't a gwyneth paltrow. No it wasn't when paltrow could player. I bet we were talking about. Who should play her. Yeah she could oh carey mulligan carry marlins got because she has such wisdom herself. And like this a change. My answer gerry mulligan player but What whizzed there's also to me. And i hope this doesn't sound insulting i. I can't wait to tell you love things. That are preface that way but She she took her voice to me. It felt like a a wise sage like woodland creature in in a children's fairy tale. Insulate wind in the willows willows. Yeah yeah like some sort of lack of a sage mouse. Yeah yes she's very like about peter rabbit look that What are the beatrix potter character. She's beach yeah now. That sounds exciting character. But but but i know this characters were wise. She's so i would look to if at this point in this show. People think i'm capable of disrespecting her. Oh my god. I haven't been paying and you went from being the you went from being nervous and like stammering in the beginning. I was yeah. That's okay i mean. It's jane goodall you were like one from nervous stammering to being like emotional and we'd be for the rest of it. I it got a little weird i got. I can't explain it. I meant everything i said. The really is something magnetic about her about her presence about her magical she is. She's match she's the most magical person i've ever met but she talks about other things and experiences in people as magic. She uses language. Like you're right. She must've been endowed with something. There's something about and they talk about this documentary. How when she'd visit these research facilities where these were being kept in horrible conditions. Anytime she visit anywhere with the chimpanzees or whatever they would gravitate toward her. There's something inside of like i was born this way. It's just. It's just how i am. I think for her work to have happened. There had to have been some sort of. She had to have had something inside of her. That allowed the first one was doctor. Dr greybeard david greybeard. Why do i keep giving them a doctorate. I did this show to dr greybeard. David greybeard i know but like for them to must have been something. They responding to a com. Something she was endowed with. Also the patients took off my leading up to. What was it. Four seven eight months until she had really close contact with them. I think that's g said What amazing no and it. It takes someone who is not only willing to be alone but is very comfortable alone. I know to do something like that. The patients all day for months trying to get closer to these creatures and and then fortitude. I mean like talked about sorry in their her sweet voice is obvious and fun to listen to but it's contrasted in such a fast waiver tough. I know like tough as nails spirit when you consider what she does now and ever since the eighties when she kind of liked came out of nothing she was in hiding she was doing research as a but but very reclusive type work she was doing and she kind of came out when she recognized the impact. She could have and how much more she could do to help. Protect these chimps. That were disappearing and she'd have to be like to your point to be able to sit for that many months in like solid the sacrifice that that takes to then go and devote your life to be completely public you know and travel over three hundred days a year. Give yourself up to that those crowds and the she's just not wired that i mean it's you're right. It's sacrifice and extra sacrifice considering how comfortable shoes being alone. And i think someone who is able to make that kind of about level of sacrifice in my estimation is a saint. I mean it's like this week. You were raised catholic. And there's a certain sense of of what it takes to be a saint in you hear you read about these figures. That's why we would always hear like mother teresa and any sort of any martyr martyr. Yeah how is she not saintly. That's really overstating no it might be. I know that she is has given up so much. And for a singular passion and has to the point where she is. D- taught a whole generation of people. Not only about chimpanzees in about the need to protect the environment which shouldn't be understated but But about how best to reach people about how to do activism but how to speak to people's hearts and and not to fight d- in the eighties when she was doing her work when she was trying to reach the research scientists and try to convince them to change which he ultimately did she faced so much opposition from the environmental groups. From animal rights activists. They were they pick it at her and they were screaming things at her. How dare you talk to the oil companies. How dare you talk to the research companies this. They're the enemy. And that's we talk about this today but like so much of i think what's wrong with social media and the way we've become so tribalize because of that ideas i they're bad we're good and you just kinda yell at each other and that doesn't lead to prague no progress it just floor. We were talking about this recently. Was it cut. Who who was it with louis anderson. Maybe that that he lacks any cynicism louis rare for last week. Yeah frigging in Yeah but she seems similar like she her podcast Hope cast think for reason because she seems very hopeful and oh jeff corwin to he still in the face of all this troubling news and information that he has he's still hopeful and positive and thinks that we can all make a difference and i admire her positively i. I wish i was less cynical. Because i feel like. Oh there's just not enough people like her in the world today to be able to make a difference if more people were like her. Than i genuinely believe i noted save this planet but then for all the people like her or even close to. Because who's really like her. Let's face it But even the people who admire her and have similar. You know. Lean that way. Thank you see. I would someone throws i heard zach often acas talking about this and comforted me to hear how much he hated this too. When you see somebody throw trash out the window. Something as simple as that like an act like that. Just throw something on the outside like. There's something so upsetting about that. I think i think there's some sort of equation between that how upsetting that is and the beauty that you can find in the jane goodall. I know it's even. I feel the same. You both have to dislike litterers but there is something i've always been a really bothered by the glitter. Some sort of deep and and it's and it's it's the exact opposite like you said of her when she she said when you borrow something. We're borrowing this earth and we borrow something you have to give it back In this case she thinks we should be giving it to the next generation but She said were stealing it. And that's how i feel about litterers able who feel entitled to this. My i've taken this. And i don't care about what's happening neck. Well she touched on this. We inherited it from our. We took it or borrowed borrowing from our parents generation. And that's why that little activist woodson the environmental reta greves winberg them. Kveta greater berg was not fancy She i think that's why her anger is sort of like justified because she seems to have a lot of day. She's kind of. She was an answer rather a question on jeopardy. The other night and katy kirk was guest hosting and someone started. This is Just reminded me of it and she. The contestants said Gr griffen berg and katie couric really shamed her for pronounced thunberg tune birds but will accept thunberg all really it was a really shameem on front of the show. Us hopefully listening to enberg. Oh i wish. I'd seen tat You were talking about hope. Like how can she hope. I'm thinking about her documentary now and she mentioned a lot in the context of hope and when we would talk i would ask her. I think i asked her that. Like how can you do. She mentioned roots and shoots a couple of times and and when you see the work that they do and when you see like the kids that are moved and inspired by dr. Jane goodall In the roots and shoots program it kind of makes sense how she is able to have this sort of hope because the next generation some of these kids exceptional and they've been and they're really like picking up the torch for her james work and it must be something that she herself is inspired by moved by because she talks about her own mortality a lot on in the documentary and she must be. There must be some sort of. There's gotta be an awareness of okay. My work is going to continue. And she believes so strongly in her work to the point which sacrifice so much on its behalf that she must be really comforting to know that these kids. These younger people are taking up. Maybe maybe that's what it comes down to then that if you believe in something enough like she does like jeff corwin does and like if you believe something is important enough than You must just be able to ignore any cynical urges that you might feel because it's like saving the planet and saving chimpanzees is is so important that you just have to like keep going forward and do whatever you can do to alleviate the problem you certainly can't dwell on solid cystic dwell on your own mortality. Too much like to like worry too much about your own existence ending and we were talking about that the other day i like you've been getting You feel the older you get. You feel you're still afraid of dying in like still don't want him but like you were less concerned about death. I would say that. Yeah i didn't it was it was interesting because your reason was well. Life becomes less slightly less enjoy enjoyable as your body shuts down. You can't process certain things as well. You can't do as much as you could. Your body doesn't feel as good as you have to them. And that occurred to me In the context of jane when she was talking about it was so sad. When she was talking about the being able to commune with the with the chimps and and i said well you must be dying to get back there. you know satish civil. It's not the same. I i can't you know. Climb she just can't do. It was a source of so much joy and happiness in her life. It is sad to. I was watching. An episode of cobra kai last night. And wait a minute. Sorry to. I thought like well. Perhaps there's a part of her that thinks because she does seem so spiritual especially about gumby in that maybe when she's when she's left this existence. Show be able to do that again. Maybe i thought that'd be cool. Yeah sorry you were well w well. Daniel returns to okinawa to into the village boiler Well you should be caught up. It's been out for a while and he realizes that this village that was so Untouched or not very touching. When he was a teenager is now full of its strip mall. And there's all these big corporations. They're really saddens them. And and that's just what's happening all over the world. How i'm surpri- good for you to compare jiang daniel larusso by the way also friends show. I know i like to tie things together. Well we are just so grateful to. I'm shocked she doesn't use emojis. Those were the funniest lightning rounds because she truly. I know a lot of people. Like i don't feign but she and i really believe that she does. I'm so glad you're an astronaut or favorite movie sequel. Was there would have been a very long pause. Just doesn't i know i can. I went through the. I did the math as quickly as i could. I was like there's no way even saying to her because he forget she's by the way she's so she's so beautiful in like there's something so en- djelic about her that you sort of she's like ageless that you forget. I forgot that she grew up during a time and in an a socio economic way that she just didn't absorb any of that stuff like movies or tv or she grew up in the forty during the war And i realized that. As i said like what move i forget what she also wasn't. Who's your favorite golden girl. She also when she talks about observing squirrels. Worms and these creatures is a kid. That's what she cared about. And that's what she still cares about. You know she's she's not someone who cares about things like movies and she really has like a suggestion Passion you know this is. I don't know how to say this about something. I don't know this might be weird but talking to her and at the end when i was like let me know. If there's any the i. I would follow her. You're like you're like If you need anything this kid. I please come on a trip with you and play with monkeys. Just to do the worksheet that she what she's doing is the most important thing for the world like disciple that i would. I would understand how people follow like jesus. She's a messiah like figure to me wo you just went next level. We'll think about it. i mean how. How does it get more in terms of a cause and in terms of how you connect with people and i don't know how it gets anymore. Jesus like then that is that. Is that offensive to christians Be it might be. It should not be i. Fi- hold her in the highest christ. Like christ jesus christ like yeah i still think you you know because at christ like someone's i don't think so i mean she is just i think what i believe you might start start to wade into insulting territory if you put her on par with christ right. Someone is christ. Like than i think are giving credit to christ and while so describing the goodness of someone i would follow her. I'd be a disciple. I be good almost like i really wanna do. More with that roots and shoots program. It seems like the most essential and you don't think it's a little selfish because you just want to play with monkeys. It is a little selfish. Part of it is that i'm sure but i'm not. I swear i'm not like i want to do stuff with the communities that she goes into. Hey do what i did. I know you want me to do it again. So push my luck. The communities that she goes. I would love. Just she's so inspiring. Okay i know you don't have to sell me on her. Yeah i go on a trip with her is one of my favorite moments was when she This is selfish when she was like. Please call me chain. And then you proceeded colored dr goodall again i did. Yeah i did just wants oh i. It was hard because the respect that i have. Yeah jane had jane then when you ask her if she's able to zoom gems and she was like no yeah and then and then she said that in theory you could. Yeah and i was like the gia. Jane has anything to do with tarzan. That's that that was Surprise when she led her to movie that when she when she admitted that tarzan was the single thing that inspired her. Now go do what she did well in the manner. She says she was also very inspired. She cared so sweet. She carries a copy her copy as from childhood of Dr doolittle around with her. And i remember i was flipping through it and we had the same. I don't know if it's the same. It was the same of the same exact year but the similar enough that they had the same illustrations. I remembered them. I love that book. That is weird that her name. Is jane just coincidence. Rice energy unless you changed. I don't think change to the chimps. Maybe she liked tarzan even more. Because jane maybe drew her towards Maybe the book the boy which led and then you think about that naming a kid could be that influential in their la interesting. I wonder if it because that book was so in fact it was so instrumental and she was so important to her that she left the movie. How cool is that and then cool but like interesting that sh- because she was she cried because the image onscreen was so dissimilar to the one in her imagination of tarzan. And i re listening to it. I was like i was curious. I wish i had asked her. What her image. Sorry what her image of tarzan was you know. Who did he look like. If not johnny weissmuller she She mentioned robert redford and she was like. I don't even know people that robin bedford. But rob bradford is still alive. But it's funny to use him as an example of an actor who like kind of current. Now i know like him at least you knew of him but I and i'm sure they're pads at cross. 'cause they're both he does work. That's a good as well. Yeah maybe future guests to the show and be cool. Let's write a letter. Okay here we go. Here is a letter. This is from joe dean. Chill de jodi. Jodi judy jodi. Have you ever heard of the team. Have you spell it jay with a matter. Have you heard of any joe dean spelled anyway. No but i'm wondering pronouncing it wrong o. O. j. o. D. e. a. n. With our time j. o. D. e. a. n. Joe show dame shoot shook joe. Dane shuck name. Yeah coach joe. Dean is subject. Ed was my favorite show ever three exclamation points adjustment aggression. I just have to get this out of the way. I'm gonna fan girl from minute. I've loved you since ed now. It was my favorite show. Maybe of all time. I love unique concept of the show and the interpersonal relationships that the characters portrayed. I wish it would come netflix's or some other streaming service so i can watch it all over again. I'd like to see some of those episodes fun experience. You like to fan girl out like a fan girl over. Tom's and julie's performance. I wish it would come to netflix. It's also going. The distance is one of my favorite rom calms also. In fact i just watched it again last month. I also loved you on new girl on offense. This is great. this is great for me. I wish you roll would have lasted longer. Needless to say you can tell. That's really sweet. Jodi thank she said. Needless to say this is embarrassing for me. Which is why. I'm stumbling through it. I'm sorry needless to say you can tell him a big big fan. Thank you joe dean. I learned from listening to that. You had a podcast. I don't think the dax. I almost wrecked my car. I got so excited. Glad you didn't. I'm in the process of binge listening to every episode. Luckily i have an hour commute. To and from work plenty of time to listen to my favorite episodes. Are the ones where you interview friends. Like jerry o'connell jerry. He's listening. Jay johnson born and max just to name a few. I hope they're listening. Just want to say thank you for having a podcast. That one makes me pee. My pants laughing too is free of political talk. Mostly three makes me love my siblings. More hearing your relationship with your brother now. It's very nice shooting. Thanks for making my drive to and from work to of my favorite parts today. Can you guys answer my. Would you rather yes k. Back would you rather number one. Would you rather never be able to listen to music ever again or never be able to watch a movie ever again. We've done this one before. And here's the tricky part of this music and movies. Yep so you'd have to like so for those i mean. How do you eliminate music for movies. You wouldn't i. I would argue that. The music you get to listen to in movies is not nearly the same as just listening to music regular because it's usually either part of the score of the movie or it's like there's a part of a song during a montage or something. It's such a tease in terms of listening to. It's not really listening to music. It's not like putting out. Yeah it's not like friends song really but it but you'd still get quite a fixed and i'm thinking about some of the great to my favorite movies like breakfast club loss. Was those that great music that you'll get trust the mohicans. See i would say in. This might be a bullshit answer. But i would say i would get rid of movies because they're so much great. Tv now now in bullshit. I think that should probably go hand in hand with them movie. I think the older i get. I aspire to listen to more music and watch more of a music and and avoid screens. More general yeah so i think my Now i value movies more. Probably but i aspire to value music more in my older age. He does that make sense. Does it do. I would dare to move especially like you said if you could watch some tv. Like if i could watch seinfeld impractical jokers in dr. Jane goodall documentaries exactly and know movies. I would definitely but like what music can do to you like. How can i know movies can move. You obviously inspire you but there's something different about what music to the saul and it's a much more personal experience for me for me personally but Olympic like what. Jane said about watching that tarzan for the first time inside it. It doesn't require nearly as much of your imagination. Right in a weird way i think music is just more important For me yeah. And like i've had near spiritual if not spirit full full ritual moments for music. The sasquatch festival god. Yeah listening to. I've never had. I've loved movers. I love movie and been so like stirred stirred by them but music. Does something different number. Two the second would you rather. Would you rather be the star in the biggest longest running hit. Tv show of all time but never be able to be in a movie again or would you rather be distorted. The biggest grossing movie of all time it becomes a classic that people watch the next thirty years but never be able to appear in another row in front of the camera ever again. That's easy for the first one. I one for sure. Because i it's just ego choosing the second one would just be ego exactly exactly like i just wanna be celebrated for one thing is accurate. That's a no brainer. But i don't get to do the thing i love to do because then you get the tv show. You would probably get tired of being tv. Show for fifteen years. Sometimes because friend of mine was just talking about how much they love law and order in view. Sbu yeah and. I thought about. And how chris malaysia chris maloney in mach- car get a and i thought both very good actors but i was wondering if they are sick of doing that. Show chris maloney left the show for a while and did other things. But like i would suspect. They're not because they're still doing it. And i think at this point it's up to them. Of course that's true. They don't need to you know when you do a show you have to sign what is six year contracts usually. Yeah but beyond that you get to renegotiate and have more control over. I guess i'm just especially a show like that it's called procedural show like that. It's like you're wired a little family. A little i need more spice. Yes but like look not to shit on that. You're just different different. Like i don't know if you could as much as layer that they're doing as much as you love chimpanzees. I don't if you could sit for seven or eight months in the wild waiting for them to you. So when i say i wanna be your disciple like. I'm sure that would be in. That kind of work would would be involved in being her. Disciple is icon. Its commitment like the way she. She's committed early and put you to work for a while. Like dude with daniel larusso. Can you tell him been watch over. What season are you on three. Or how many seasons are for their four. There's four i wanna watch it. It's good it's really fun. I know i've been seeing like little moments. That during the stall jerk dodge vibe i like nostalgia vibes back to not again. Thanks for getting me through this year. By being who you guys are take care. Show dean shook or maybe shock Shucks probably hear that a lot. I wonder what she hears. More is my question to joe dean shock. If she hears shots are jodi noti. I've a feeling if i guess. Put money on it. I would guess years as long as it's in. Fact pronounced. Joe dean jacques. I would guess she gets Joe dean jody more. Maybe or maybe even what the shock or actually lately except she alleged ali partners had a real risk verge. Yeah you'll both up to talk. Partners had a resurgence years. She has yeah but now i think it might be sh shook a Remember that Crook took me all night long up. Yeah she likes that she might well. Thanks joe dean and Thanks to each other joe. Deans listening reading the odds. Are that thank you for writing in and freer very nice email and if you guys would like to write in our is life is short at wondering dot com and thank you again to our first dame. Hopefully not our last but Definitely our first and Certainly most christ like figure the brilliant doctor jan goodall the yes and and kind and so good for the world through so grateful that she graced us with her presence. I know that's like a. I don't know if i've ever used that so appropriately. She graced us. She shared her presence. Here brought grace to the show and her presence in the world brings grace to to the earth so thanks to her and If you want to check out what she China which is up to Such important things of roots and shoots and takura and the jane goodall institute continues to do Like she said it just takes two people to want to change things and get involved so thank you to her and to everyone. Listening talk next week could be dream life good injury a life is short is hosted by me just in long. It's co hosted and produced by you christian long 'til so produced by one meghan. Monaco senior producer here is michelle mitch. Land and audio engineer is sergio. Rica's and executive producer orioles skills the one who has decided to use louis four hundred. Thank you away from over. It's true that's true it's shut up you play with them without doing the clucking noises. But she's like she's doing never had to worry about interrupting right has been like except for like the queen or his brother maybe ryan maybe but did was ever been like the world. He's he's like taking the power back. Maybe he's a do. I knew about one yet. No one ever say he goes above and harrier oprah's above him and if she is yeah he doesn't think so right things like the queen ice charles and william probably acts. I can do anything. Definitely subscribes the hierarchy. Because he was like he said to her she's like. I thought it was just like your grandmother like it to you. It's a decrease snap. You'll catch if the queen. The queen i and my grandmother second we'll see.
Jane Goodall: Never Giving Up
"This episode is brought to you by the Capital, One saver card, earn four percent cashback on dining and entertainment. Two percent at grocery stores and one percent on all other purchases. Now when you go out you cash in what's in your wallet terms apply. Welcome to brain stuff. A production of iheartradio. Hey, brain stuff. Lauren vocal bomb here. Some people just don't quit. It's okay to quit occasionally, it's best to, but let Dr Jane Goodall be an example, to us, all sometimes you have a far fetched dream and instead of dismissing it, you do it anyway. And when you've cheered what you set up to do, just when you're at the top of your game, your dream might change based on what you've learned along the way your knee dream is bigger and more difficult to realize, but you do it anyway. Repeat into old age never slowing down. And you might even get nominated for a Nobel peace prize. The key to Dr Goodell's persistence, seems to have a lot to do with knowing what she liked from a very young age. And then just insisting on doing it. Her father gave her a stuffed chimpanzee when she was a baby. And she took it with her everywhere, even though it was by all accounts terrifying. She grew up loving to observe and catalog animals, and dreamed of one day living with African, animals and writing books about them for a living. Her mother, who was a novelist herself told. All that, that seemed like a perfectly reasonable idea, even though it was the nineteen forties and not at all. But middle class English girls were expected to do after she finished school. Goodall couldn't afford to go to college. So she worked odd jobs in London for a few years until a friend, invited her to visit her family's farm in Kenya at which point Goodall, immediately quit her job, and waited tables, until she made enough money to pay for the price of boat fair to Africa. While in Kenya. Her friends, justed, she contact the paleontologist, Louis Leakey curator of the corn did museum in Nairobi to discuss. Primates Aliki was interested in studying primate behavior in order to better understand early human species leaky hired Goodall as his field assistant on a paleontological dig and later asked her to return to England to research primates and raise money for a long-term observational study on wild chimpanzees, the gun base stream, national park in Tanzania into live nineteen sixty twenty six year old Jane Goodall began setting up her field station at Gumby, which would become the site of the longest running. Wildlife research project in history. British authorities initially balked at the idea of a young woman doing this kind of work on chaperoned. So Goodell's mother van accompanied her for the first few months Goodall observed, the chip head See's daily for two years before she earned their trust. Her method was just to watch the animals, and imitate their actions, recording everything that happened in a field journal. Two of Goodell's most important discoveries during this period, had to do with what chimps eight and how they went about getting food Goodall was the first to observe chimpanzees killing and eating the meat of small mammals prior to this. They were thought to be vegetarian and perhaps her biggest contribution to our understanding of primates was the revelation that chimps used collected and modified grass stems and sticks as tools to fish, termites out of their nests Goodell's discoveries were so significant Leakey said, now, we must redefine tool redefine, man, and he arranged for her to write a dissertation at Cambridge University on the behaviors of wild chimpanzees. It was accepted and she became one of only eight people ever to graduate from Cambridge with her PHD without first earning her undergraduate degree in nineteen sixty four Goodall married. Hugh on, Loic a Dutch wildlife photographer who leaky sent to record her activity in the field. They had a son in nineteen sixty seven who spent his early life with his parents at Gumby after Goodell in Loic divorced in nineteen seventy four. Good. All Mary, Derrick Bryson in nineteen seventy five who was the director of Tanzania's national parks during this time Goodell published books about her experiences in research at gone BEI, including in the shadow of man, which was criticized by scientists because of good old habit of naming subjects of her research. She called her most famous study subject, David greybeard, but the book was Beilby popular and has since been translated into forty eight languages as she lived and worked in Gumby. She began to notice changes to the chimpanzees habitat deforestation and mining practices forced the animals out of their homes and into spoiler in smaller areas. More than one million wild chimpanzees lift in Africa hundred years ago. But today, only a fifth of that population exists Goodall saw the writing on the wall. Which is why in the nineteen eighties Goodall changed her focus from observing chimps to working to protect their habitat. She founded the Jane Goodall institute in nineteen seventy seven which works to keep human communities and wild Chipenzi populations in Africa, healthy and coexisting peacefully roots and shoots is a program to power young people worldwide to make a difference in their local communities now at the age of eighty five Goodell spends about three hundred days a year, traveling and speaking about Africa. Chimpanzees, the environment and her other passions. Although Goodall sees the hideous parts of what humans are doing to our planet. She continues to be hopeful about our future. She wrote in a New York Times op Ed in two thousand seventeen quote, the lust for greed and power has destroyed the beauty. We inherited but altruism compassion, and love have not been destroyed. All that is beautiful in humanity has not been destroyed. The beauty of our planet is not dead, but lying dormant like the seeds of a dead tree. We shall have another chance. In two thousand nineteen Goodall was nominated for the Nobel peace prize. She was also included on the two thousand nineteen time one hundred list of the one hundred most influential people in the world. We spoke by Email with the author of the petition to nominate Goodall for the prize, one Myron shackle, a research, associate at western Washington University's department of anthropology. They said, I believe there's no better choice to receive the next Nobel peace. Prize civilization is today facing perhaps its greatest challenge ever, the twin puck elliptic threats of global climate change and biodiversity loss. Both are caused by humans and both are linked in that boasts stem from human misuse of the environment. No one has ever done more or better work than Jane Goodall to bring peace between humans, and their environment and thereby create the conditions under which humans can be at peace with each other Jane Goodall is the global face for global peace. Today's episode was written by Justin shields, and produced by Tyler clang brain stuff is a production of iheartradio. How stuff works for more on this in lots of other topics that aren't monkeying around get it because chimps are apes not monkeys. Visit our home planet has stuff works dot com and from our podcast, my heart radio. Visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Today's episode is brought to you by the new Capital One saver card. Earn four percent cashback on dining and entertainment. Two percent at grocery stores and one percent on all other purchases. Now when you go out, you can cash in what's in your wallet.
A VerySpatial Podcast - Episode 613
"This spatial podcast episode six hundred and thirteen February twenty two twenty nine hundred. Very special podcast. I'm jesse. I'm sue, and this is Frank and this week we're going to do things a little bit different than than usual. We're going to present. I our interview that Franken embark did with Michael child. And then we're gonna come back and kind of. Have a conversation around that. So onto the interview. We're joined with Dr Michael Goodchild one of the biggest teams within the community. And and it's very honored to have a him come to wish university and talk with us a little bit. And he's sitting out with us very spatial for just a few minutes. I think what we wanted to start with because there's a bazillion topics. We could talk about and we could talk for hours, and I'm still Barbara's a question. You mentioned the elevator pitch. The thirty. Second elevator pitch and an awful lot of our listeners GI professionals. And I'm not sure they'd given thought. So I'm curious. What do you think makes a great thirty? Second elevator pitch. Oh, something that tells a story that people can relate to the question. I was talking about today was how do you? What is your elevator pitch for making the case that spatial is special? And so I would find a quick example of something that. Really distinguishes geospatial technology, and I might use something like and Kelly Knowles work on the battle of Gettysburg, which is something that everybody can relate to and understanding what was going on on the battle of Gettysburg in the to headquarters, and her point is that the northern headquarters were at a much better. Command to the battlefield then the southern and this accounts for the dispute between long street, and Robert E Lee about the appropriate action of the south, and you can attribute that dispute you're gonna attribute the eventual failure of the southern side of Gettysburg. So that is something you could not do with any other technology, the view shed algorithm, which is a key part of GI. S? There's something you simply can't do it simply too complicated to do in any other way short of building a model of Gettysburg and building a model of the the church tower, and actually scaling it down to a physical model. But I would use an example like that I might use Jon snow's example of cholera in London in eighteen fifty four something that's had a big impact such as that. What do you think that you've written about that resonate so much with people in the field that other people that have written things might not have such a long standing in? Honestly, don't know. I think I do try to be constantly positive. And this is a very rapidly evolving field where opportunities are constantly arriving and anyone can see an opportunity either as that. Or is the threat? But I try to persuade people that it's not actually a threat a lot of Qatar gophers, for example, feel threatened when it's become possible for anybody to make a map and some awful maps are produced as a result. And I think this the ability to make mass with GIS enormously. Expands the field as part of it. I think I when I'm asked what what it takes to to create a career like this. I often say you need to say, yes often. I think all too often we we turned down for -tunities because of some imagined or or real problem, but in doing so if we get a reputation for saying no than that, ultimately has an influence. Well, how do you get an invitation to give a talk at some random part of the world. Why are people going to ask you? They're going to ask you because they suspect you might say, yes. And that's I think usually important, I'm really happy. I'm in this field. It's been over fifty years now, and I'm really happy that it's been a constant source of excitement. And I try to imagine what a career will be like in some field, which hasn't moved as rapidly and hasn't open itself up. But I'm also I love the idea that gee, I s is so close to reality that by using GSI can explore geography. Because to me that's really the the objective. You're sort of major name within the G I S community, which I think is kind of interesting because of your own identity you've used GIS geography almost exactly interchangeably, but interactively very strongly you speak a little bit about that. For a lot of our listeners who think of themselves as a person as opposed to a geographer, right, right? So I think that there is a real problem in using I to explore the world if you don't have the same time. No the world, no Jesus database can give you the full picture, and it will always miss things, and it will always introduce uncertainty. You're never sure when you look at a G I S exactly what the world is like. And so the only way to resolve that has to be familiar with the world. And so I have students who come work with me and. I give them a project, for example on Los Angeles. And after a couple of months, I asked them have you actually been to Los Angeles. And it's crucial to me that they that they have that they've actually experienced what Los Angeles actually looks like on the ground because it doesn't look at anything at all like what it looks like an Jesus database out GI's database tells you a lot of interesting things and a lot in fact that you can't observe on the ground. But it misses everything that's that's actually there and that's crucial. I think. And when you were talking about geography and GI science you talked about the having GI science in geography brings along with it foundation for the ethics and for the discipline for understanding the concepts. So could you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah. I think with technology, and he powerful technology. There's always the question of to what extent the experts in that technology are accountable for when the technology gets misused. And there are plenty of examples where G I S has been misused used to promote policies that are actually objectionable. And so the whole question of ethics really becomes important. And I think it's it's essential that somebody being trained in GIS also be trained in in the ethics of a very powerful technology. And that's something that a lot of people in geography of been willing to dedicate time to whereas it's hard to find people outside geography who who've taken such an interest? So that's to me. I think one of the very strongest arguments for a combination of GS and geography, so M I dissertation your cited like seven times. And it's a broad Ray. Range of topics and some kind of curious how you've chosen to sort of move throughout your career to I'm interested in this area. You move from, you know, Jason society, those issues and participation I into VGLI. Yeah. So how do you sort of float through this spatial discussion? I think one of the great mysteries of science is why it is that people find some things interesting. Another. Of other things not I think as far as I'm concerned. I've I think been successful several times in reading well outside the field and seeing how what's being said way outside the field is relevant to geography two GS. And one example would be VGA. I I started to see all these projects. And I started to see the possibility that the ways in which we produce geographic information, we're about to be radically transformed. Now, I know the when I got interested in giants started publishing in it. One of the reactions from people who are ready very immersed in. This was open goodness. The academic communities finally caught up. But that to me was was part of the game. I was very interested in fractionals for a while. Because I'd read in scientific American wonderful article by Martin Gardner about fractionals, and I thought oh, wow. Mandal brought himself used geographic data to advance. His ideas his papers on the the length of the coastline of Britain. And I think that's a very key thing that you you need to read widely you need to experience well outside the field and not shut yourself off to anything. That's not labeled. I because that's how you come up with ideas. Well, I wanna thank you very limited time today. And I think you for taking some time to talk with us. This is really informative. I look forward to hopefully getting to do a long interview and AG this year and thanks for. So we like to thank Dr the child for sitting down with Franken bar Bali was in West Virginia. And as you heard at the end of the episode, hopefully will get a chance to to hear more from the three after the AG conference. But there are a lot of things, of course, to talk about just in that last little ten minute section there yet we had exactly ten minutes for this interview is time was very closely scheduled so fortunate we couldn't get a minute more. But so let's let's start with the the idea of, you know, the elevator pitch that apparently had talked about in the presentation at WVU, and this idea of highlighting the people that were talking to in the public in other geographers and GS folks, what is special about spatial? Yeah. It was a really interesting idea that hung the entire presentation. They gave which was a unsurprisingly fascinating presentation for the whole time. And he really wanted to highlight the argument why we should people should care about the spatial aspect of the world more than they do. Yeah. I mean, whenever we're we're talking to a lot of people, you know, for those of us who are teaching in front of first year students are, you know, just first geography class students. It's it's one, of course, since we're covering so much information, especially in something like world regions where we lose. Sometimes the the reiteration of this is spatial that we kind of have to come back every few weeks and say, okay, don't forget everything that we're talking about. Yeah. We're talking about economics talking about politics. We're talking about the environment. But the reason that we're talking about them as 'cause they're all contexts tied to wear and the spatial aspects of what we're talking about. So, you know, it's it's clear there that we can bring these things up in conversations, but even in meetings, whenever we're doing consulting work in those type of things making sure that people understand that the question that they want isn't just a GS question, but a spatial question, right? Well, or not just on the other side of it not just a a database question. Right. Not just Elizabeth just technology technology question. Not just, but I think I think his point in in his example, right of the Gettysburg view shed is one that really resonates Momeni. But that's often where I find the entree is in in the example of this that it is about relationships across the space of the earth. It is about things like, you know, place and understanding all those variations, and when you then turn that into something digital all right? There is something unique about preserving that location and then utilizing that to to visualize things into to do the actual analysis. And I think that that's finally when you have an example. And I I really liked that he pointed that out is that often when you have the example, that's the the thing that grabs people really is is when they see it. So. An often that's the case, right? If you're not to go onto somebody the things that we'll talk about in a minute about things like knowing geography and things like that. If you're not capable. Just because of not having knowledge whatever to show, that example, very often. It's still is a you know, sort of in one ear now the other when you extol the the GI science at account technology, and all that if you don't have something that resonates like I had some students that that to just weren't really understanding the big deal about, you know, things like reading an article about loss of sea ice. And then I went and got one of the many, you know, really well done animations. And I said this is this is why right. And this is something that we couldn't do until we had both the data capture part of it and remote sensing. But then also the ability to visualize it next you run analysis on it and get you know, the the amount of ice. That's that's being lost. And so seeing that though was something that at least one of them said, I just never realised it. So. Yeah. I think obviously visualization is a we all agree as powerful tool, but I've said this before on the podcast, and I always say that if if it happened somewhere on earth or hub happened someplace then we can analyze it using j yes and everything happens somewhere, which is a great sound bite. I think but it doesn't really explain it's not that five minute pitch as to why that spatial. And I think that it's one of the the tricky bits that we Russell with translating these abstract numbers into meaning. Or something that can be resin. Would that will resonate with people? So what you talked about sue is. You know, we can we've been measuring the numbers for awhile in many cases, and we're import this number went from this number to this other number and that number is lower than that number, which is a bad thing. But it's all abstract numbers. But when you do an animation go, okay, hold on. Now. I can kind of see what's going on. If you're not comfortable looking at a. Numbers and be able to see what's going on the analogy that I use is it's a little bit like the difference between showing people three d versus are people who have trained themselves to look at its Agassi lines and see the relief of the land. But it's not not something that happens naturally. You have to be taught that and not everyone can do it. And so I think I think all of that kind of takes us very easily than into the next big thing that was part of the conversation. So you know, what's special about spatial will what's special about spatial? Is that it's geography, right? We talk about g as we talk about geospatial technologies. The, but the even the name of the podcast is or subline is conversations on geography and geospatial technologies. We understand that. And we of course, as I want people to understand that the importance of spatial carries over to the whole discipline that is kind of focused on that idea of spatial. Yeah. Had to say, well, I haven't exa- this is a very so this is a very near example. But this this illustrates kind of what's going on. So it just something simple concept of of geography great in the shape of the earth. So in my introductory classes. It's it's that time of year where we talk about map projection. And I found that I find this conversation to be really interesting discussion in in the change just in my lifetime. So I can remember, for example, shape of the US. Right. The continental US that we always saw in atlases when I was growing up and before digital right was very specific one an Albers or something along those lines. But since these kids are growing up in the digital era with Google maps and things like that they're used wearily. We're Lee more used to actually seeing Mercader's and seeing the northern border of the US looking very different than what I grew up with an atlas. And so when we talk about that like when we brought up there first. Sets of maps for the head to to just do a very simple co- replace map that had to do with the data for the fifty states. And it was interesting when we compared the look of the maps, and the we'd already had some examples and stuff, and they they didn't actually gravitate towards what I would consider to be a much more aesthetically pleasing from geography standpoint of from a previous cartography right projection that they were okay with the along aided in straight border for the northern US and kind of the the stretching of Maine and all of that. But that was interesting right because they had never thought about the impact. Right Khazar nudes. It's our first class the impact of the shape of the earth on what might end up on the maps. Right. So we're this learning that now, but the fact that they just sat there and stared at them and weren't bothered by because I because I am bothered by Mercator often. But anyway. I would put that kind of highlight just in a very small way for me. Again, this whole question of if they hadn't been in my class and begun to confront some of these things about you geography in general, the shape of your all those types of things that they never would really would really make any attempt to do anything differently. Okay. It's an this is an interesting sort of a side. But to your point that occurred to me that or something popped in my head this week as I was messing around on Google maps is and I haven't messed around with Google maps much in the last couple years, you know, just kind of get how do we get to this place? And after that, I'm done. So the scale I'm working on is pretty much, hyper locals what I've been doing. Well, I've been looking at various jobs around and one in two been looking at some festivals like to go to for fun. And I was trying to figure out, you know, where's it near where wh- what can I get to you know, how long it's gonna take that type of stuff, and I've noticed now as we reported, I think been been a while at least a year now that Google earth and Google maps. Fused together. But when you zoom out you start seeing the globe much quicker than you would have ever seen before. And it occurred to me I thought well, you know, the kids that are in like elementary school or middle school. Now, that's how they're going to experience a lot of this stuff. And I think it's gonna be interesting because it could potentially mean that they understand the concept of projection. But I don't think they'll understand that. Yeah. We started with the globe. We've gone down into this flat projection. What the implications of that are so. The the Google maps approach has been very fascinating. I think but it also is very limiting in educating the broader in what is possible. But it's also kind of they've almost in a way responded to the critiques of what they as part of the whole keel purchasing everything started pushing of the the Wimmer cater right is that they've almost kind of. I don't know intentionally or unintentionally assume unintentionally have responded to that by you know, once you get past a certain scale, you're not in. We're cater anymore year. The. Yeah. Round round. Yeah. So it's just kind of. It's it's interesting, and yeah, so we're we're seeing, you know, very explicit visual of the geography of the world whenever we're talking about these type of issues. But again, it's it's the fact that G I S from a geographic perspective brings all these other aspects along with it. Not just those that are specific to projections and coordinate systems. But the way that we understand the world around us from view sheds in his first example to how we represent portions of the world, you know, the way that we take the technology. We have and use points lines polygons rosters, and tens and such. But what is it that we are representing? And that's where of course, the whole aspects from geography and cartography of abstraction begin to come in. So you have the scale of geography the extraction of cartouches of Qatar Affi kind of coming through in the GI. Yes. So, you know, there's still those those aspects that guide Jaya's very heavily in and as he says people who don't have some of that experience some of that understanding some of that training. You don't really hear those type of conversations from them a lot of times. Yet. What I find the most annoying people to deal with our statisticians because they always say like, oh, yeah. We've control space. No. You didn't just think you did use the technique that seems to be a pretty good guest musician. But it really isn't. And that's very challenging. I find to give people that what you do can't be done better better. Satisfaction. Well, I think everybody in their own discipline thinks that they're ably is the best way to say, I feel that that's easy to stay across a lot of disciplined yet, fair enough and included. Yeah. That's true. And. I also like to think of it, though, even in in this question of G, I S and geography of more broadly in that just appreciation for the human side human geography, even in the questions that you ask the data that you collect the way that that you see the relationships in the world so questions that can be boiled down. If you're not aware of some of this new onset can be boiled down to a quantification in numbers and things like that. There's always more, and we have you know, whole sub disciplines in GI science that are are bridging that, but it less you are aware of some of those things it's always down to just because you can't isn't mean, you should which kind of plays into the sort of next topic that Dr good was able to to touch on which is the question of ethics, and I think that that's actually related to the broader. Appreciation and understanding of G I S geography together. Ethics is kind of a a weird topic. It's in the sense of I think we've discussed put in the past. But it's a add on almost attack on the and should be ethical, and we'll waves treat it. Yeah. And that's that's a problem. I guess I because it it, you know, there's ethics too. But we don't I I don't think there's any. I don't know this for certain, but an almost bet that there's no more than one school in the United States that has a class devoted to nothing. But ethics and geography, I doubt there's any. But there may be one. I'm sure somebody's gonna what about this place for the first time this semester, actually in the GS minor that I put together our philosophy department had a class called technology and human value, and I actually put that into this option in the the GI's minor, and I finally have students, but the first time they've offered it in years. So I have students taking it because I wish I wish. Requirement and but it's a more broad crusher. Right because we've dealt with many of these topics over the years in the podcast, the big the the questions about things like human terrain and all of that. But it is one of those things, especially if you come to two G, I S as a way to supplement another domain area that you're in a you may not. You just may not bring in any kind of, you know, questioning of technology in general or what it should be used for because that's not part necessarily of the training experience. And since I'm in the education field, right? That that's done up to me to introduce the question of very often. And I'm surprised by. The notion sometimes that we don't have to worry about this that the notion that the technology somehow can't be used for that in the software than someone else's already okayed it. Yeah, that's right. That's okay. Because somebody thought about this as like, no not. Okay. And and yet, they're Bethel d-. And I I'll go back to example. I've used many times, right? Just really quick, right. The one million tweet map there still baffled that that kind of stuff for all that they may have grown up with digital things and give their data way. And we just had this discussion in inter-clan in a class. I just had this week about the fact that you could map Snapchat, which was supposed to be something where you couldn't save all that stuff. Like, look it's out there. Right. You're always constantly clicking on things that gave you permission or give somebody else permission to to use data. You are a sensor we've had the talk. I mean, Dr Goodell talking about you know, his getting into g I and things like that. I mean that was part of part of it too. Is that it can't be volunteered? But just as much as. There are things volunteered. There are things that are not. And when you're on the side to exploit those then you I think the the ethics part of it really really does need to be a core thing, but it's been difficult to figure out how to how to get it in at the right time while in there, there's also just jump in before Frank real quick. The the biggest problem somewhat with that somewhat. But completely with ethics and GIS or ethics and geography is that one of the things is that while we understand ethics and while we can discuss ethics, and we can sign agreement says the G I S P or other certification to follow the ethics that are outlined. We're not at the cysts. We are not philosophers who focus on ethics and there are a lot of nuances that are hard for us to convey. Well. And perhaps even understand well because we're not in that particular frame. So we should discuss it, and we can discuss it. But at the same time it it is actually an entire field. Whenever you want to get into this idea of ethics. Yeah. I mean, it's the classic problem that people are having trouble with now, and I can never remember the name of it. But St. you know, do you kill a person instead of hitting three children, you know, on a train thing. That's this sort of stuff that they contend with and automated cars are dealing with this Mary issue at some level whether implicitly expertly, so it's not like these problems don't come up, and we should have some way of grasping with them. But you know, when it comes to, for example, the the button that you said somebody has thought about it. And the extent of their thought was could I never asked. Should I said could. Yeah, I do this. Let's do that. That's cool. And that's a problem. Because I think this goes back to GS in society. I think the way we have dealt with it. And as a disappoint is to question, the very foundations of Jesus entirely and say, should we even be doing anything like this? Which is I don't think a productive way to incorporate ethics into geography and G I personally because it's going to happen. Whether you want to get involved or not. And I think that you're right. We don't know how to grapple with it. Which is why we don't grapple with it. Even though, you know, like, you said, we get a form you get your jazz PD gonna form it says, I will do things. But what does that mean? And I think that most people interpret that as if I think it's okay, it's okay. Which is not as a goal inherently. Well. We again, there's a whole other thing to go along with this that we could go into and maybe we will one day talk about ethics as general concept and geography but going back to the button. There's nothing inherently wrong with the button 'cause it's situated, right? Sometimes this button is an awesome button in sometimes ethically. That button shouldn't be used whatever technology were talking about. And so for the people who are creating the technologies they can't necessarily limit those places where it's completely usable completely relevant completely useful. And you know, they can't put a kind of a gate on it to say. Okay. We'll you're doing it this way. So it's appropriate. You're doing it this way. So it's not I mean one it's not their job to do that. But just like any tool. There's both good ways and not so ethical ways to use it. Right. And that that definition is different for different people. And and maybe that's where as always it'll be the struggle because again as you point out Jesse it's not just all through technology. So we've already seen in the us the question about using algorithm. So or where companies like Purdue that to decide not just pricing, but how they they pay drivers and all kinds of things, and it's very simple to sit at a computer and say, I had these optimal conditions, I need to meet and not think about the human element. And then it in this week wasn't just the news that Microsoft employees were unhappy with a deal that the company wants to do four hundred million dollars to sell. I think it's hololens headsets to the military. And you know, so voices come out where you have a differing opinion on where it went ethics comes in. And, but, but it is something that should always be on the mind, at least it should be out there, not the. Notion that I can just sit down and do everything I do with this technology in evalu- neutral sense. And so that is a difficult thing to convey. But I think that we should struggle with it. I think that that should be, you know, constantly something that could come up in anything do when think about, but that again goes back to the relationship to the of the technology IS to the broader questions about its development, its use the broader geographic offer, that's all that stuff. Right. Plays into it in trying to form what would be sort of your ethical sphere. Yeah. I I think you're right Jesse. This is right fodder fodder for a longer podcast, and it's we're not going to reach any vague conclusion at any level because it is I think an ongoing conversation, and that's one of the challenges. I think we do with well, gee, s in general, but specifically with ethics is that we tend to present things. And then when people get on the field, you know life takes over and they get used to their career, and they stop, and they may learn how to wear the buttons are differently or slightly different package. But this question of ethics is something. I don't think that people revisit on an ongoing basis. I think we've knowledged the notion that education is never over. You're always having to relearn in this field. But I'm not sure we thought about at school evaluation is ever over, you know, it's like, okay, I don't it's not a conscious part of the decision making process in the field of doing this, which is a little bit of problem, but times sometimes it is some I mean, it can be potentially over. The problem know that sometimes it is part of the the thoughts. Sometimes people do include them. I don't wanna see nobody does. I don't think there's any. I think it would be the exception than the rule fair enough. I don't I don't see. I don't see a lot of conversations happening now, maybe internal, and of course, you don't know what's going on there. But I don't see a lot of conversations in the professional realm. At least where I'm at where that's part of the conversation. Yeah. Fair enough. But and this gets into really hard. I what it would be really interesting to think about this in terms of countries. So what I was thinking about when we were talking about the technology. Jesse is that okay? They're really troubling analog here without getting into full podcast about it is guns. Right. So really we've taken the the stance when it comes to two guns in the United States that this is a technology, and it's up to the user to use ethically. And that sort of approach taken other countries going to different ways, if it look this technology is problematic inherently, so therefore we're going to you know, limit it. And that's I think probably one of the more extreme examples that you can come up with of the technology is it as a coal or not. But it would be interesting to see if that translate to other technologies and other countries, I suspect it would. But I would imagine the variation isn't as widespread as you would see with guns. Well, actually, I think you can. Can right away point to things like the so the EU stance on firearms and data? It's kind of similar whenever you compare it to the US approach to them. So we can talk about that later and. You know, not just between countries, but between cultures between time. I mean ethics is based on the morals morals are always changing. And so it's it's it's a big thing that is not static by any means. But big deep topic big. This about five minutes ago. He said something that would have taken us very easily into this idea of also being aware of ideas outside the field, and of course, ethics being a complete other field. Does that as well? But yeah, I mean that was kind of his his last. Thought I tell you what as soon as he said that I went I renew my subscription scientific American. As he was talking about it. I was like he's right. I I need to read things outside this field more often and scientific Americans exit. Pretty good way to get into the getting too much into it and most libraries universities have a subscription science scientific American nature, you know, the the general science focused popular magazines, but you know, there's a lot of other journals. I mean, we've talked in the past don't just go to things at a conference that are what you know in what you're interested in go to other things as well. Because it brings in these new ideas that you may not have thought about before that may be relevant. Yeah. It you can even think further afield than I then just the science magazines, which are good examples to, but but even more broadly into fields that kind of explore how we represent the human experience. So he married he stuff, and and you can look at at different ways in which the computer itself, so human computer interaction and all kinds of things in those fields that do sometimes trickle their way back. Explicitly into two GIS GSI it's but also implicitly too. Well, in the end the questions that were willing to address in the the ways we're willing to extend what we already do just using wired real quick as an example there, we see occasionally articles about location, and we also see articles that are very explicitly talking about ethics and technology. So she's bring those to back together again. Yeah. I would say toddlers first law of geography, actually applies to everything in the sense of the first part of that is all things are related to each other. So implicitly that means you can get value or actively between topics that don't necessarily seem near to each other. So. I use that as a framework for you may be reading about XYZ technology or field or something like that. But it may have a lot of utility for you in the end. Any other ideas outside of the field that we want to talk about. No other than I think that for me an interview that was the almost the most important thing is to remind myself to not get the tunnel vision. You know, there's a lot of going on all over the world and a lot of different disciplines, and you can utilize a lot of ways. So that was a really important point. They rather liked. So while we the go ahead. In that interview. That was all of a sudden. So oftentimes, we talk on the podcast. Don't just look at one piece of software. We know that we oftentimes use multiple pieces of software whenever we're doing a project, but don't forget to keep looking at what else is out there for GIS geospatial technologies location based services, you know, we're getting ready to have more utility in new GNSS systems. I mean, so much like anything else these these are not stack things as he says is a discipline is an area of research that is and of course job as well that is moving rapidly in you know, what you were using five years ago. Probably isn't the same thing. You should be using today. So always be aware of what's going on alway round. You wanna hear the weird software that I've been looking at lately, I've been looking at dungeons and dragons type role playing game management software, and the thing I find really interesting about it from a. GS geospatial perspective. Is that obviously there's a strong. Legacy within roleplaying games of focusing on the map, right? So map tends to be the centralizing unit for a lot of reasons. But there's also a lot of thick description and a qualitative information that goes along with that. And then there's also the mechanics of the game which is heavily quantitative. So it's interesting that I find that the software that allows you to run a campaign tends to be bizarrely vary. Cross onto logical mythological, and it's kind of neat. It has limited use for actually doing GIS. But it is neat to play with it and say, oh, I could see how you can incorporate this so that that's thinking outside the box there. But when you're moving away from G, I S to more traditional idea of mapping and join to this idea beat mapping that you guys are working on there recently that it's a good interface. Yeah. I actually really well that was the I saw a reference to something on right at about a piece of software, and I want wait a minute that looks a little bit like and download it and play with. I was like man, you could do a deep map with this, especially if you wanna do something that was medieval. All right. Well, I think that that's probably wraps up given. That's a Dutch. Good china. Only had. Well, the fact that you only had ten minutes and look at how long, you know, and we could've gone on for literally hours about some of this stuff. So, you know, always kind of exciting inspiring to to get a chance to talk to someone who's who's workout a formulated the things that you you had to do in your education and continue to keep up with. So hopefully, you guys we'll get a chance to hear more from Dr Goodchild's if we can catch up with him at AG or even somewhere in the future. So hopefully enjoyed that. And I think we'll save any other thoughts perhaps for feature episodes. Mixed up with that except for jesse's one. And we're going to come back next time with a news episode. I'm gonna go ahead and put it out there now because we kind of skipped over some of the news is that we have since we went so long. So we'll we'll definitely make sure to come back with news in our next episode in was that kinda mid March at this point I stick, and we can work something like that. Yeah. Franken barb going to be at AG in April. Right. Yep. And then we're going to be there for the majority of the time. But yeah, we'll be there. So look for them. The tweet them get in touch with them to sit down and have a conversation with them already too late because if you're listening to this most likely the North Carolina jazz conferences over with. But I'll be there this week come to the North Carolina geographical society booth if there is one, and I'll be there or waiting to see whether or not we got one for free. I dunno anywhere else. We're going conference wise before the fall. I not not geospatial this. So there's no W W H E P this year. Well, there's an annual meeting, but it's still to be determined. So I'm not exactly sure where and win usually it's in June. But and I think it's going to be in this southern part of the state of West Virginia. But I'm not one hundred percent certain. Oh, typically in July at the association of computing in humanities meeting up in Pittsburgh. Yeah. So potentially there as well. And if you're into that, whether we're there or not that's happening in Pittsburgh in July. So. Yeah. And if you want to get outside of stricly, academically technology thing in mid-july in Pittsburgh. If you go to that conference. You can also hit the Pittsburgh, vintage grand prix, which is of course, a very nice melding of a lot of my passions cars watching vintage racing and geography because they do organize themselves by geography, and you can find a lot of interesting things variations. As always if you like to add your event, podcast and his emailed podcast various spatial dot com. If you'd like to reach us individually a career it. So it very special. Adt com or you can follow me on Twitter at GIO girl. You can reach me at Franken, very spacious dot com. You can follow me on Twitter at no Jabbar, and I'm available at Jesse it very special at com, and you can find Oliver contact information over at various spatial dot com slash contacts is always with the folks from very spatial. Thanks for listening and we'll see in a couple of weeks.