20 Episode results for "Dr Freeman"

Part Two: The Bastard Who Invented The Lobotomy

Behind the Bastards

52:25 min | 1 year ago

Part Two: The Bastard Who Invented The Lobotomy

"When it comes to sports history doesn't change? Or does it come find out on the special teams podcast which is now available on Jason Smith and Mike Harmon together Jason. I are looking back at the most compelling teams in sports history why we rooted for them or against them as they achieved their title of best of the best. Aw do remember the big moments and maybe become aware of some. You didn't know each episode features a different team and we just know you're gonNA love it checkout special teams right now on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts Greeson Madore. Nah I'm Robert Evans hosted behind bastard for part two of our episode on the inventor of Lobotomy and the the door to the recording studio has been greased with olive oil which I am informing listeners. Of so that they can truly get into the behind the bastards spirit by greasing their own doors with olive oil. Everybody Taylor at home grease grease something near you up with olive oil. I'll wait right now. I'm here as with impart one with Daniel van. Kirk Daniel how are you how are you how you how are you how are you doing today. I am great. I'm so glad to be back for The conclusion of this story about horrific man who justified his means Yup. Yep He's a bad man and speaking of bad men were about to talk about a president although a president most people like so I may. AP Physics and people off. John Robert Kennedy are probably the two most famous brothers in American history. One was the president until he got shot. Another would have been the president if he hadn't. I've been shot. Both men have come to symbolize fairly or unfairly an era of just indecent governance in the United States of America one. That will probably never come again. But the Kennedy Brothers had a sister as well as another brother named Ted. Who We don't talk about much because of that lady? He drunkenly killed this woman's name was Rosemary Kennedy and her life was stolen. Dolan by Dr Watts. Dr Freeman and wild unchecked misogyny now rosemary's birth was in the words of the Irish Times complicated by medical misadventure. Her depending on which source you read you will hear different things about the exact extent of intellectual disabilities some articles. I've read say she was severely Mentally Handicapped and unable able to lead a normal life others argue. She had learning disabilities but was otherwise. Bright and capable. I'm not a doctor. But I did teach special ed once and it seems fair for me to say whatever. The precise extent of her issues Rosemary Kennedy would have been capable of living a relatively independent life with some specific help. Now you did very different versions of Rosemary Story Story depending on which right up you read for example here's people as Rosemary. Entered her late teens or parents saw less of the affectionate dutiful and eager to please young woman they knew and loved and more of her violent outbursts she. She began screaming and yelling and throwing things she was violent and throwing vases across the room she was out of control. One person says now that article Paints Rosemary. A deeply disturbed young a young woman and her. lobotomy is tragic but purely the result of her parents not having better options to care for such a disabled child in a more primitive era. Another Irish Times article I found which interviewed one of her biographers. A man named Irvine takes a different route. Irvine has more filled out picture in his head. He sees her as stunningly beautiful. It was often said she was the most beautiful of the Kennedy's Beautiful Flynn Poetic. She did have learning disabilities. It's hard to say how much but she wrote letters. She kept a diary. She became a Montessori teacher for a while and she taught young children her favorite book was Winnie the Pooh and she could read that to children too. So Yeah Yeah Great Book. He has the sense of a fairly normal deeply loving young woman every letter that she wrote his show drenched in this one for her father to acknowledge her in love her. Every one of those letters is heartbreaking. It's all about. I'm doing my best and hope this please you. She would send reports about her weight. Because because wait was a huge thing in the Kennedy family monitoring the weight of all the children. There's so much correspondence were joe and rose or just talking about the weight of their children. So yeah meanwhile meanwhile an Irish central article found in her describes her this way by kindergarten. Rosemary was called retarded in the lingo of the time. Such children were considered defective for Joe Kennedy obsessed with the family image it was a disaster. Rosemary never proceeded mentally beyond third or fourth grade intelligence and she was packed off to a boarding school for misfits from there. She wrote her father a heartbreaking breaking letter. Darling Daddy. I hate to disappoint you in any way. Come to see me very soon. I get very lonesome every day now. Rosemary finally caught a break when her her father became ambassador to Britain and she thrived in a London convent school but back in the states rosemary. Who again was very attractive? Began attracting admirers at twenty she. She was a picturesque young woman. A snow princess with flush cheeks gleaming smile plump figure in a sweetly ingratiating manner to almost everyone she met And of course as Larson writes her parents found her sexuality dangerous. And I think this gets to the core of Kennedy family issues with Rosemary. More than anything And it seems to to me based on what I've read that the the argument that she was mentally retarded is very oversold. I think she had learning disabilities. I think she was someone who had difficulty thriving in a normal school But I think she was basically it seems like she was basically a functional intelligent person who was a young attractive woman and people wanted to fuck her and and she wanted to fuck them. And this was not okay with Joe Kennedy. So I think that's the core of the issue right The Kennedys were powerful wealthy high-society. Let's say just gotTa stay in line on that family line line. She has Some learning disabilities. Yeah and she's permits you ass- and a woman who can't we gotta can't take out this part of the two Yes she may be having some mood disorders. Maybe she like flies off the handle and gets like Jelly and and stuff like that. They just seem like well. She's not happy in the family so she must be broken. Yeah that's a woman who's you're to disregard her exactly data carry on the name yet. Exactly I think she was a strong willed. Young woman who wanted to live a life that would have been inconvenient to the family goals. And it's my opinion that this more than anything else sealed her fate in before we go any further. I want you to take a look at this picture of Rosemary. It'll be on our website too soapy. Can you show that to Daniel. Oh Gosh she looks like a fun yes she looks she looks like a normal healthy. Young Woman I would describe her as looking playful and lively and Koi like a willful young woman woman with Spirit. But she falls into I liked fun girl winter. Yeah Fun Girl Fall Yup now. Within mere months of this photograph she would be reduced to a shambling ruin of herself by the treatments of doctors Freeman and Watts but the final decision on whether or not to perform the lobotomy on on Rosemary was up to the Family Patriarch Joseph from people quote without his wife's knowledge. He took Rosemary to see Dr Walter Freeman controversial neurologists psychiatrists and professor the George Washington University. who had gained fame for popularizing lobotomies in America? He took her to the best time and at the time time. Reader's Digest Newsweek. Everybody was touting the best thing for mental illness the lobotomy. It was the cure. All people were so eager for some help that they just grabbed onto it bassy. That's Friedman from last episode being smart about playing into the press. Yes he did he. He'd gotten this shit into the press and fucking Joe. Kennedy reads this in a Newsweek as he's sipping fucking Manhattan's as his his Kennebunkport retreat. Over the fuck. It is and if you need to wonder about how much Joe Kennedy cared about the Like agency or I'm like agency. She's a girl exactly right so if a woman did not only is he taking his daughter to get her brain carved out. He's not telling his own wife that he's doing it. No why would he right exactly. Yeah this is all double double to double smack. Yeah now Freeman diagnosed Rosemary with agitated depression and promised Joe that a lobotomy would put an into her rages and render her happy and content. What did he diagnosed her with? Sorry agitated depression. This sounds like that shit where they're like. Oh you what do you want me to call it. What do you want here jet yet? She's not she's not happy and that's the problem that means she's broken right but the agitated. Why why we have to do something about it? Because it's just getting worse. The families got money and she's not happy so the only thing to do is to break brain. Jesus okay. Sorry in the fall of nineteen forty one. Dr Freeman assisted by. Dr James Watts performed a prefrontal lobotomy. And Rosemary at George Washington University Hospital rather than carrying the lobotomy essentially erased rosemary. Kennedy the procedure itself literally involved Dr Watts scraping away at her brain tissue. Dr Freeman Astra to repeat stories from her Childhood Hood and list the month of the year when she could no longer answer. The procedure was pronounced a success. Wow Yeah tell us. When we've taken enough you tell us? Tell us when you don't remember who you are right and then we'll be like hurt. We got it all got her. 'cause I wondered that too like if somebody got their lobotomy right and then they were still like in the last episode. The doctor who went out and got drunk still like what they say. Well we gotta go in and dig a little deeper I. I guess they often did that. Yeah always we'll talk about some other cases later but yeah that was not uncommon for like. Let's get it all. Just keep talking kit it all. Just get the whole girl out of there. Yeah just maker a shell now. Rosemary's spent the rest of her life completely dependent on a small handful of caretakers takers. Until her father's stroke. She lived isolated and hidden from the rest of the family at Saint. COLETTA's Catholic facility in Wisconsin for inconveniently disabled members of which families when Joe Joe finally stroked out her nieces and nephews attempted to reintegrate her back into the family but any hopes she never had an independent life forging an existence for herself was obliterated by Doctors Freeman and Watts Eunice. Kennedy would eventually create the Special Olympics in honor of Rosemary and a nineteen eighty-seven story in the Saturday. Evening Post brought the whole sordid tale to light light but that was far too late to stop the career of Walter Freeman from reaping an unspeakable toll in human lives by nineteen forty five at the end of freemen and Watson's collaboration around one hundred fifty fifty lobotomies were being performed annually. Nationwide but in Nineteen forty-six Walter Freeman introduced his Revolutionary Trans Orbital lobotomy technique and started teaching it to surgeons and non on surgeons all around this glorious land by nineteen forty nine some five thousand lobotomies were being performed annually. So that's great. Many of those were performed by Dr Freeman himself who started traveling. The Nation showing off his skills to rooms full of doctors in the press. And I'm going to quote now from the book. The lobotomy in Nineteen Forty Eight Patricia Derian area. A student nurse at the University of Virginia Charlottesville watched Freeman Perform Trans Orbital lobotomy. At a nearby State Hospital Freeman selected the patients for operation she reported by twisting their joints wants to determine their flexibility not by reading or taking histories after a special lunch in honor of the occasion of his visit. He occupied a conference room and had each patient shocked and photographed. When all was was ready he would plunge the Luca thome in dairy noted? He wore no gown mask or gloves. Afterwards he would sit the patients up and have them walked out of the room. He was very proud of the fact that the people walked in and walked out none had to be carried although one or two of them sagged badly on the way out she remembered after several operations Freeman enliven the demonstration by cutting nerve fibers on both both sides of the brain simultaneously. Then he looked up at US smiling. I thought I was seeing a circus. Act He moved both hands. Back and forth in unison cutting the brain identically behind each eye it it astonished me that he was so gay so high so up dairy and recalled the sequence of events as a living nightmare a deeply disturbing performance. He's reached his final form. Yeah now Frank Freeman. Walter's son was occasionally enlisted to help his father in these lobotomy. Exhibitions would spend weeks at a time on the road. Crossing thousands of miles visiting numerous hospitals and lobotomize ing huge numbers of people in Nineteen fifty. Two Frank helped his father perform a lobotomy. The press started when Walter immobilize the patient with a series of powerful powerful electroshocks and then as frank recalled. I was there to hold the person's legs down. We all went for a ride when he threw the switch. The patient stopped seizing. Walter would lift the eyelid jam. AM His ice pick inside and shattered the bone that separated it from the brain. He would carefully hammer away at gray matter until both sides of the frontal lobe had been disconnected. Frank recalled I. It was kind of impressed. He made it look so easy. That's good right I mean here. It's so easy. 'cause he loves it he's so he like like you were saying do what you love. And you'll never work a day in your life of hammering into people's brains with an ice pick but he also seems obsessed with the celebrity of it the he wants to like. Be The guy and come to your town and put on his brain show. He wants to put on a shell and wants to do with both hands. That you really impressed right. See they all walked out of here. Did you see them all walkout. Well it'd be carried. Yeah well but yeah. He was lazy when he came in. Yeah now over. The course of a very long career Walter would perform more than three thousand four hundred thirty nine lobotomies fifty five hospitals in twenty three states the the entire time he believed himself to be something of a heroic medical radical pulling his disciplined forward into the future his motto was lobotomy. Gets them home. Which meant in Effect Act lobotomize and people allowed them to exist comfortably and without complaint in American society? It is impossible to know how many freemen's patients truly benefited from his treatment. His summaries of his results were always very biased and it's never possible to analyze them. Outside of the Lens of his own opinions objective scientific analysis of the results of lobotomies in this period are essentially impossible to find. We know that at least four hundred ninety of his patients died as a result of his services. We also know that lobotomize in human beings was not simply a matter of medical necessity. The longer Freeman worked as a solo lobotomize. The more he leaned into the performance art side of the field. And I'm going to quote from the Washington Post now shocking shocking. His colleagues for instance grew into a great source of pleasure once during a lobotomy demonstration in a nursing home in Baltimore before a group of surgeons he replaced his surgical hammer with a carpenter's mallet. He delighted in reporting how other lobotomy demonstrations made a Columbia University professor emeritus of neurology weakened with faintness sick and students in England in so outraged. german-polish that Freeman. I said I almost had to push him out of the way in order to perform the operation several times. He should have his virtuosity with the Luca thome by performing two handed. lobotomies working. Both eye-socket Simultaneously Ashley on people. That's people forget that there's only on the other end of this hammer and pick. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah his cross country trips in pursuit of lobotomy patients in his self appointed is the Trans orbital procedures. International Ambassador only heightened Freeman sense of professional solitude and caused him to commit serious errors of judgment more than once. He worked the Luke. thome forcefully enough to break inside a patient's brain at Cherokee State Hospital in Iowa. He accidentally killed a patient when he stepped back to take a photo during the surgery and allowed the Luca thome to sink deep into the patient's mid brain. Oh that's all from Jack L. High. Yeah that's pretty fucked up Yes yeah yeah so. We don't know what his scale is. It still might have been deemed a success by him. The guy's not complaining anymore now. Many of Walter's patients were unable to walk away or really think after his ministrations. But this caused less of an issue than you might think. I think the bulk of his clientele were inmates at asylums and the folks paying for surgeries didn't so much want those folks healed as they wanted them quieter. People in charge of hospitals often welcomed Adam Freeman into their institutions because the lobotomize patients. Some of them would go home because it actually be helped by the procedure and the others were generally easier to manage Freeman himself wrote the noise level of the ward went down incidents where fewer cooperation improved and the word could be brightened when curtains and flower pots. Were no longer in danger of being used as weapons and so it made it easier to deal with. Yeah no more biting no more biting no more problems at all. Because they can't do anything anymore because he just erase race them basically a lot of cases we don't have to like technically say we killed them. Yeah Yeah I mean. Hundreds of people were improved by his work. Work hundreds more it's less clear and of course hundreds and hundreds died but that's this in part one. It's almost seems like though they're using the exception to prove the rule. Yeah there's some people this benefited so we should do this for everyone we think would needs it. Well like what exactly they don't. Those numbers don't really match up. If if ninety five percent of the people are benefited from me like well. Five of these people five percent might not work out for. I'm in favor for it but I get what you're logic is but being like doc. Oh a few percentage of people this real small group is really helps will then. That doesn't mean we should be doing it for everyone. Also in house I keep thinking of like. I'm sure sure this happen to people who were autistic right. Oh God yeah yeah. 'cause days like they didn't even know what autism even diagnosed in the Saudis. Oh Oh no no no. I don't think at this point. I think it was even after that that they really had a handle on it. But like it's possible that's what was going with Rosemary. She may have had like ass burgers or something like that. I I really don't know I don't think anybody does. I'M GONNA guess. A lot of his patients were autistic and they just got written down as imbeciles or retarded which is like the lingo. They would've used at the time and you know because they require different means to like reach and teach in like work with you know because they had a different sort of brain They you just sort of hammered into their brain until they weren't a problem anymore right. How many women? Yep wouldn't have gotten a lobotomy. They hadn't been married. That's a scary question. Because they had a man saying will. You're the problem you aren't making the food you fight with young. You have your own thoughts which I'm sick of hearing and and but if they had just never had become a to use it the lingo of the of the era a spinster they would have never gotten a lobotomy. 'cause they would have have had an oppressive man in their life to be like. I'm sick of you. Yep Yep marriage doomed them yeah that's fair to say oh probably probably hundreds of cases at least yeah. Yeah now. Freeman had plenty of problems with. Oh actually before before we get into freemen's problems you know. It's not a problem problem. Our advertisers great. You know who won't lobotomize their wives who the products and services that advertise on the show. Great then I then I want to hear about them because now I'm interested it's TV. Plus something different. The ability I jason clauses the start watching now subscription Russian required. We're back and we're talking about Walter Freeman and of course the issues that came as a result of him. Hammering ice picks accent the brains of thousands of people in one thousand nine forty-seven Freeman operated on a Washington Cup. After the brain is picking said cop hemorrhaged on both sides of his brain and in freemen's woman's words was never able to do more than the simplest tasks around the house. Even so freeman did a brisk business in Washington state in the late nineteen forties. He met the actress Francis Farmer Armor at Western State Hospital. She'd been patient there for five years largely as a result of behavior her parents considered wild and unconventional. But we today would probably just call being a human human. We don't know for sure if Freeman lobotomize ter- but some reports say he did and Frank Freeman says his father did. There's a picture that is almost certainly miss farmers operation. It shows a man. Walter in a sleeveless shirt with Harry arms and ungloved hands Hammering Aluko thome. The surgical device invented to replace his icepick into a woman's is a crowd watches and there goes. What would have been my halloween costume? Yep Yep tragic sleeveless Harry is pick But nineteen fifty four tranquilizers like chlorpromazine replaced. lobotomies is the preferred treatment for agitated people in Asylums from left Washington for Los Altos California and for the next next eighteen years. He split his time. Between the bottom icing people and hiking actual medical science gradually left him behind but Freeman continued his research on Trans Orbital lobotomies. Because he loves is it he loves he loves it in nineteen sixty four. He conducted an experiment on fourteen disturbed mental defective. Mostly Young. schizophrenics in a letter to a colleague. Can you explain that this experiment tested the efficacy of injecting. Hot Water into the brain after stabbing it with an ICEPICK. I was prepared to accept two fatalities but fortunately all the patients survived survived invited to return. Next may yeah. What does he knew tied? He's just turned out he's like oh well but now we do this thing like he's just shoot some water water in there. My God I don't see how any of these patients could improve but at least one can now be cared for at home again. His his concern is that they be easy to care for now. They get better really We you know what else you remove the whole head you can do it wrong with that bomb fucking easy easy. They don't complain. There's not defeat him now. Since Walter worked at a variety of different hospitals during this period he enlisted a number of different nurses to help him in his thousands of procedures. One of these people people was Helen. Colmer a nurse in West Virginia for thirty four years. I found her account in an article written by story core and nineteen fifty four. I assisted Dr Freeman and doing a trans orbital lobotomy nurse at the time and I was drafted to work in there with him had no idea about what I was getting into but I was curious and I wanted to see it and I saw it. Oh my the room was full of people people. Everyone wanted to see what was going on. People from town and everywhere else came up to witness the occasion. He came and I held the patient's head and he did lobotomy. He had an instrument to me. It looked like a nail a great a big nail. It had a sharp point any inserted this in the corner of the individuals. I and banged it with a mallet. I guess it was and then he pulled from one side and pulled to the other. It wasn't easy it wasn't as an easy to watch. I know that day. We lost one patient because they couldn't stop the bleeding and I can't remember if any others died. It wasn't what I thought it might be to me. It was cruel but that was just my opinion. I it was just doing the job I was employed to do remember. I've seen all kinds of things in my line of work so if I stopped and twelve in each little thing I'd be hurting I remember. He was relaxed. He was very calm while he was operating parading. He made it look easy to do. I think he just had an extremely high self confident personality. He didn't have any qualms he wanted to prove that he was right. He was convinced that he was right. I thought how how can a man be relaxed. Just going blindly into a brain but of course I didn't have the authority to say. Stop that these patients were not young ones. I think there were all about thirty or forty years is old. I knew two of them. After the operation I found that they had changed in their personality. My impression which I remember still was that they didn't ask any questions. Expression of deep turmoil in their heart and their Seoul was subdued. There was something missing emotions. I would say you know if you were to converse with somebody. There's always a motion with it. Just take all of your motion out of a conversation with somebody and what's left WBT GA- when they're like Oh. I can't believe he just kept doing in how I feel. I mean I know you've probably covered this. Just the amount of people who who had some sort of like like they were Asensio path and the medical field gave them that outlet. I mean it happens in the military. I feel like Freeman might have been associated path. He's he's described as having a lot of difficulty like connecting to people a shallow affect like he. He's yeah he kept trophies. It's like I do think he thought he was helping people but I think his understanding of what helping people was was helping the people who had to care for these folks. I don't think he actually cared about the patients because he anyway you just don't care you just don't give you any lack empathy. Yeah if anything you do. These things things to people to like sponge off of their emotion and their feelings and their reaction. Yeah yeah now the most common diagnosis snowsuit for which Freeman prescribed brain scraping with schizophrenia. This does not mean that most of his patients were actually schizophrenic. Just that he hastily declared them to be schizophrenic. It's a frantic before jamming an ice pick through don how well they could bend their joints. Yeah yeah other. Common Ailments treated via is picking were chronic pain and suicidal title depression. I nine hundred thirty seven New York Times article listed the various symptoms for which lobotomies were often prescribed tension apprehension anxiety depression insomnia suicidal title ideas. Delusions hallucinations crying spells. melancholia obsessions panic states disorientation silesia pains of psychic origin nervous indigestion Russian and hysterical paralysis nerves indigestion. Yeah now if you know anything about the fifties and sixties CIA you know that nobody fucked around with human brains and new and exciting ways without drawing their attention in nineteen fifty two the agency hired Henley Laughlin a psychiatrist to report on the potential of lobotomies. To help the god-fearing the American government disabled communists in a quote from the book lobotomize together in his classified report titled Some Areas Of Psychiatric Interest. Laughlin commented that the procedure feature would be adaptable to intelligence work and noted that he watched doctor. Friedman performed twenty two trans orbital lobotomies with an average of about six minutes per operation. This included time for before and after after photographs as well as the keeping of notes and records from an appearance standpoint. The operative procedure is relatively simple and could be learned in a brief period of time by almost any intelligent person in addition he wrote. There is not great outward evidence of injury or damage to the patient. Besides the behavior changes in the black is the average pathologist performing an autopsy would have to be a keen and careful observer to detect changes using the brain substance made by the operator because I felt unable to disclose Dr Freeman the real basis of my interest Laughlin notes. He could not solicit the lobotomy experts opinions as to how the procedure might be modified defied for use by the CIA Laughlin who also professed an interest in the possibilities of taking hypnotic control of patients during the period of unconsciousness following. Electroshock therapy formed his own opinions opinions on the potential lobotomy presented as an intelligence tool to date there has been considerable discussion relative to the possible use of the lobotomy type operation by this agency as a neutralizing weapon Laughlin wrote in pre facing his conclusions. He described the role of the frontal lobes as one that allowed a person to pursue a cause and feel devotion to it. Certainly any crusading spirit is apt to be quenched. He reported community. Enterprise in activities in the way of social uplift leadership and executive abilities and activities are apt to be lessened after operation on this basis zealous fanatic communist if lobotomize might retain his interest in communism but his drive zeal inability to organize or direct would be substantially reduced. So that's good. You take out the fight baby. He also I wondered if for interrogation use the CA would be like well. There's so much more agreeable. They'll tell you anything. We should lobotomize him then interview. I will say the good news is that even the CIA in this period had too many scruples to lobotomize people as a method of social control. What what are what are we in the sixties by now? Yeah Yeah Yeah yeah the sixty with LSD. Right isn't there dosing strangers with asset. Yeah like like gangbusters. Yeah but Laughlin wound up recommending against lobotomies away to disabled Communists And his his main reason for doing so is that it would look really bad to scramble. The opinions of people whose opinions differed from the US government Like if that got out it would be bad So it is here that I should note that on. At least one point Walter Freeman and was on the somewhat defensible side of medical history as I previously stated there was a time when mental health professionals believe that all mental issues stemmed essentially from repressed memories reason traumas and other things that a therapist could work out and Freeman was on the vanguard of doctors who argued that many brain problems were physical or chemical in nature In based more on circumstances of biology allergy that things that had happened to the patient and Freeman and his fellows wound up being right. We know today that many mental health issues do stem from hormonal or chemical imbalances. Things that can be corrected with medication or in rare cases surgery. Walter identified the problem in mainstream medicine rather correctly. He was just very wrong about it solution and because he was such an advocate get for his solitary practice of lobotomize people. He failed miserably to advance his theory of mental illness with the Times in nineteen sixty he treated one Howard doughy an eleven eleven year old boy with what I would describe as mild to moderate behavioral issues. Howard fought with his brother lied to his parents and occasionally stole candy? He was rather withdrawn antisocial anti-social but certainly not someone a reasonable person with diagnosis in need of major brain surgery his behavioral issues such as they were stemmed from understandable causes. His mother had died of cancer when he was five. His father had remarried a cold and demanding stepmother who hated him. Howard was emotionally abused by her and ignored in favor of his stepmother's I biological children so we acted out more and more as he grew? That's it acting out. He wants attention. Someone xactly caring parenting. Yeah and as he. He acted out his stepmother responded by beating him and forcing him to eat alone. This made his behavioral problems worse and his stepmother decided that meant. There was something wrong with him. She started talking talking to psychiatrists and eventually wound. Preferred to Dr Walter Freeman now by this point Walter was a thoroughly fringe figure. Lobotomy was still practiced far too widely but most medical professionals no longer believe it was anything but a deeply flawed last resort measure but Howard stepmother didn't care about that when Walter interviewed her stepson. He saw the evidence of profound disturbance quote. He is clever at stealing but always leaves something behind to show what he's done. Freeman or quarter notes from nineteen sixty caught. Yeah he's he's AH. Yeah if it's a banana. He throws the peel at the window. If it's a candy bar. He leaves the wrapper around someplace. He does a good deal of daydreaming. When asked about it he says I don't know he is defiant two times? Can you tell me to do this and I'll do. That is a vicious expression on his face. Some of the time now based on a brief interview Dr Freeman declared Howard to be schizophrenic and prescribed one dose of Scramble Brain for the young boy when he met the famous Dr Howard was struck by his round glasses his suit and his stylish goatee and made him look a little like a Beatnik. He was warm personable and easy to get along. Longworth was fearful no. I had no idea what he was going to do with me. I'M GONNA quote next from a write up in the Guardian. When Dolly awoke the next day his eyes were swollen and bruised and he was was running a high fever he recalls a severe pain in his head and the discomfort of his hospital gown which gaped open at the back? He had no idea of what had happened. I was in a mental Flog Deli says I was like a Zombie NBA. I had no awareness of what Freeman had done eight weeks after the doctor I saw him duly came around from his operation. In a state of numbed confusion the hospital reports stated that he had been given a trans orbital orbital lobotomy a sharp instrument was through the orbital roof on both sides and moved so as to sever the brain pathways in the frontal lobes. Dr Freemen's bill came to two hundred dollars. Dolly was his youngest patient extraordinarily he survived. Now Howard would go on to live a full life. Eventually but first he suffered through years of homelessness mental illness and a deep confusion as a result of the damage done to him he would grow into a school bus driving trainer and a living monument to the resilience of the human brain but one cannot help it Rita story and wonder how how much less painful his life might have been. If Shit he'll doctor hadn't driven an ice pick and WHO's fucking brain gleefully yeah gleefully really with with panache and also the like Seems like schizophrenia to me. That works schizophrenia. Definitely do this. And he's still a Canada schizophrenia. And that Bitch Bitch which of a step mom was like. Whatever I don't care I just brought him here to get his brain taken out so yeah and she's probably mad or long fucking dead hopefully but she's mad that and It seems to have been on the air like the side of things where somebody didn't lose all capacity for life. Yeah he was still a person unfortunately for her much to her. I'm sure dismay dismay. Wow Yeah now you know what won't declare you a schizophrenic for stealing a candy bar in scramble your brains with an Icepick tell me the products and services that support this show I wanNA know about it. Oh yeah absolutely here we go. Who is Mike Pence? Who is Nancy? Pelosi they're two of the most powerful people in government today. Okay but how they get their minds. Sean Morrow and who is the first podcast. From now this in Iheartradio I'll tell you the stories of the most important politicians in America and and beyond through interviews with the reporters and experts. Who Know them best? There is no luminosity deep state but the roar means people on who is a cover everything from Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell's answering machine to Senator Elizabeth Warren's favorite junk food to where secretary of Education and Betsy Devos and her husband went on their first date. WanNa know more tune in who is on Tuesdays on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your guests and we're back. We're talking about Walter Freeman in the twilight of his career. You know the sixties and shit as medical science starts to pull away from freemen's practices and towards more humane methods of treating the mentally ill I guess more humane methods includes literally everything that doesn't involve an ice pick so while this was all going on in his field the old walter doubled and tripled down on his claim to fame. He spent increasing amounts of time doing what he called Shrink Baiting essentially trying to trigger more respectable physicians and writing lyrics rex about his professional enemies. He was known to declare that he would rather be wrong than boring. That's so true. That's on his stone. That's on his this tombstone now. This desire to buck. Tradition led him to his shoe other basic aspects of professional medical niceties from the Guardian. He had a buccaneering and disregard for the usual medical formalities. He chewed gum while he operated displayed. Impatience with what he called all that germ crap routinely failing to sterilize. His hands or wear rubber gloves loves despite a fourteen percent. Fatality Rate Freeman performed three thousand four hundred thirty nine lobotomies in his lifetime. We've turned any malpractice suits at all. No no not in the sixties man. Okay now in case you aren't aware a fourteen percent fatality rate is essentially criminal any modern surgeon who killed that many patients with what they consider to be a routine operation would be investigated on suspicion that they were some sort of serial killer but of course water freeman was not really a surgeon. Urgent he was just a doctor who found a lazier way to perform brain surgery using a tool from his kitchen. Got Damaged Walters. Personal Life was no prettier than his career in Nineteen forty-six forty-six. He watched his eleven year. Old Son the namesake of his grandfather die horribly assembly national park. The boy was filling up a canteen and a stream when he fell over and was dashed to breath. Upon the rocks Walter's wife Marjorie was a chronic alcoholic which is not surprising and the doctor cheated on her constantly still. His remaining children considered him to have been a good father and defend his legacy today as a medical trailblazer. I found this quote from his son. Frank now a retired security guard and I think it was meant to sound positive but it's just unintentionally intentionally horrifying to me. He is a friendly giant of a man. This is talking about Franken He's a friendly giant of Mandra smartly and a double breasted dark blue suit and a burgundy tie kept in place by a thin gold clip clip. He was a marvellous father. Frank said sitting in a room filled with crossword dictionaries and Dick Francis Novels. He loved his children and always made time for us out of his busy schedule taking US camping every summer. All across across the country frank recalls being invited to observe a lobotomy when he was twenty one in vividly remembers having little crack as the orbital plate fractured. It only took about six or seven minutes and dad kept running commentary indeed. The original ice picked used for the first trans orbital. Lobotomy came from the Freeman family kitchen drawer. We had several of them says frank cheerfully we use it in the punch holes in our belts else when we got bigger. I'm enormously proud of my father. I think he's been unfairly treated. He was an interventionalist surgeon. A pioneer in that took guts apple tree fall. Yeah for him to like Oh you know he did a good thing. It isn't that great. Look here look I got nice. Pick my kids right now. We could go poke anybody's I. We used it to poke holes in our belts and my dad used to poke holes in brains. This is fine. This is fine. This is fine. Yeah well now thankfully really. He wound up a security guard rather than a brain surgeon which I think would have been a better career for his dad. To in retrospect percent a hundred dead more when he was when his dad was sick sickle time. Yeah yeah he really should've stayed that way now. A nineteen sixty seven freeman was visited by Helen Mortenson. One of his earliest patients she'd received two lobotomies as from Freeman. Won In nineteen forty-six what nineteen fifty-six after a relapse in nineteen sixty seven she relapsed again likely as a result of her brain repairing itself. She went into Walter for a third. lobotomy this was conducted Herrick Memorial Hospital in Berkeley California and unfortunately for Helen. Walter severed a blood vessel in her brain. She died three days later. Later from the operation and Freeman Surgical. Privileges were revoked. He lived for five more years during which he performed no additional lobotomies. He died from cancer on May thirty first nineteen eighteen. Seventy two at the ripe old age seventy six between nineteen thirty six. In the late nineteen fifties the wave of lobotomies Walter ignited lead to more than forty thousand lobotomies and perhaps more the fifty thousand some aspects of techniques. Dr Freeman pioneered are still in use but only on a profoundly limited scale less than twenty brain operations per year on average average performed in the US to treat psychiatric disorders most of these lasers or radiation to lesion off small sections of particular chunk of the brain primarily to treat obsessive have compulsive disorder or Parkinson's trans orbital. lobotomies are no longer practiced and most of the young men and women. Dr Walter Freeman aspect. Have long since followed him to the grave. And that's the episode. Wow so they're still done but I'm sure nowadays somebody wash hands before him not sort of rains To deal with any sort of psychosis some of the things. He pioneered are performed on a very limited basis or part of more humane treatments but again like twenty people a year receive something vaguely similar. And they're not even that similar it's just that they they remove similar parts of the brain because it does help certain people but again you'll get how many thousands of operations he performed in the actual need seems to be somewhere like maybe a couple dozen people a year. Really really what he did he liked it right. It's like what he takes to get an oil change and you can tell they just WanNa change breaks. They're like new new brakes. Do you really well. That's what we do here is break. So that's what we're going to say you need. I think a lot of it was that he He he was He was good at performing a lobotomy. And most people weren't most people couldn't do that sort of work without like breaking down because it was just horrifying to a normal human being to shut an ice pick into a skull yes And Freeman didn't give a shit and he didn't like working with other people who's able to do this alone and he was the best fast at it and that's all he wanted from his career. So that's the only thing he really did right. And he didn't grow up with much of an affinity for The female gender so yeah it was more than happy to shut up a wife. Oh Yeah your wife's talking. Sounds like schizophrenia right. Yeah yeah that's wild that's horrific. Yes pretty bad. Did the the fact. When do you think so? It probably should have really ended by like sixty five Yeah I mean he's sixty seven was his last one. I think it probably should have stopped by the fifties. Okay fifty later. I guess understandable she was like the late forties. Yes I think that's right. I was thinking of the person that was in sixty two. But yes shoes in the forties. That's right. They started in the late thirties. You could argue that. There was maybe a decade. There were. You're just if you assume medical science is going to have some really rough patches. Just because it's hard to figure shit out maybe a decade where people would have done this before realizing. Oh this actually. He is just turning people off and not fixing any problems But it went on for and most doctors by the fifties certainly late. We're aware that like This is not the thing you do for everybody. Who's got a mental illness? There's better treatments. But he kept right on rolling almost to the seventies. He's like he damn near made it to disco. Well thank God for that. Yeah thank God. We stopped it before. Disco Yeah Yeah that would really tarnished America's brightest period also I love when we get to give the CIA credit for things they didn't undo yet the CIA was like this seems real fucked up which should tell you all you need to know. We're just GONNA abduct people off the street and give them toxic doses. Oh says of LSD seems like the humane option man like inbetween assassinating democratically. The elected leaders and running death squads the the CIA looks back at this. And it's like boy that's GonNa Piss people all right. This is not a really look bad. We're not looking to get into that. Had ICEPICK game. Yeah we don't want we don't WanNa be monster snow and it's too much evidence yeah. LSD WEARS OFF. Yeah Yeah so so Daniel how you feeling well educated first of all so I appreciate that. I'm so surprised that some some people went on to live normal lives. I love that Howard went onto to actually like kind of be. Okay Yeah Worse Story Man. There's so many horror stories is in this man's life yeah. He's a living like a living monument to how resilient human beings can be. He had like a family he like lived a with seems to have been pretty happy life after he got you know over some things and was like you know training school bus drivers. That's not an easy job. That's an important job. Apparently good at it so like but it's like you said amazing brain repair can repair itself. Yeah and it probably did the best it could G. Yeah it. It seems seems like it did great in his case Did Watt seven Like really ended up distancing himself then from Friedman no I think he you know he had some major arguments with the man but he always regarded him as a brilliant pioneering Dr Just somebody who he thinks things a little too far and was a little bit too cavalier but like not really respected him. It seems. I'm not an expert on watts. No no yeah so you feel happy after this. I mean I'm happier that I'm living in a better medical time. Feel like we're not doing anything right now medically that we're GONNA look. I'm sure somebody's going to like actually and then I was like no. I think we're doing lot's of Shit that we're going to look back on fucked up. Oh yeah man. I think we're doing a ton of stuff that is going to be looked back on as deeply problematic. Not as I don't think we're doing anything on a mass scale that's nearly as bad as the mass lobotomies for that were being performed back then but I think we're doing a lot of fucked up shit. MM-HMM I think particularly what's going to be looked at in the future as bad as as lobotomies are on that level is how we deal with people who have a There's evidence that a lot of violent criminals like people who are in prison for violent crimes have head injuries as yeah. They looked at Aaron and Hernandez case and that the Boston Globe ended. The spotlight team profoundly damaged. Yeah Yeah Yeah. I think we're going to look at our treatment of prisoners as an e e essentially rooted in our inability to recognize or our desire to not give a shit about a lot of types of mental illness and not treat it and just lock it up and I think that that is something that will be viewed on the same scale as lobotomies are. Today I would agree with that. I think I was trying to specific procedure that were like. Oh you never do that anymore. More but yeah. No that's That's all that's you're you're right on the nose with the stuff. I think I think there might to. I don't think it compares in terms of the scale but I think like one of the things. A lot of people with autism complain about with groups like autismspeaks is that their goal is to like a radical autism and a lot of people argue. Like well. Wait wait. I'm perfectly happy I just have a different kind of brain and I think about the world differently and your desire to eradicate me is kind of like eugenics and horrible and I do think that we we will increasingly recognize that like trying to wipe out. Autism is Incredibly fucked up and instead we should be focusing on like helping these people inc in coordination with everyone else and like yeah But I don't think the scale of that and I don't think like that's not it's I it's a sliding scale. I think it's worse to jam specs into People's brains. Just keep thinking of the show the Act did you watch the knick no highly recommended Clive Owen. One Chris Sullivan who's now in the show. This is us I think it's SORTA Burke but it was on showtime. And it's all about like the the medical advancements in the teens and twenties and you're seeing like what they were trying to figure out and the chances they were taking that ended up working and like the advancements they would find just even how to like do fusion and stuff like that so I just kept thinking of that because my whole thing is like when something very delicate and very a tricky. Maybe that's redundant but Ends up being like common. I always wonder how many times what was the trial and error process. US layers me. What was the trial and error process for Walter Jackson Friedman and what those people are gone I mean and and those Yes yes sir gone? It's you know. There's an extent to which we were going to try lobotomies. Of course it was. It was going to happen and it's not bad. You know even though some people were going to be horribly affected by it had to happen for medical science to advance. It didn't have to happen on the scale right. It's like we were going to realize that like Ritalin could be helpful in treating certain kinds of like adhd it didn't have to be wildly over prescribed to children a AH the level it was in the nineteen nineties. Right Not that. I don't think obviously I don't think giving riddle indicates this nearly as bad as thousands of lobotomies with ice picks and unwashed unwashed hands but There's always going to be some sort of like we figured out this new thing. It helps some people. Let's massively over apply it. That's kind of how human beings are our But if like that's part of why the scientific method is supposed to work the way. It's supposed to work where scientists are supposed to kind of pull their ego out of it it and look at like okay. Well now we have data saying we're actually doing this way too much and we should stop but then you get a guy like Freeman who basis whole identity on the fact that he's the best at this thing that we shouldn't didn't really be doing And then it doesn't stop so it's this kind of problem where in an ideal world if we treated science science the way we're supposed to treat it. Somebody would have walked up to Freeman in like the late forties or early fifties and men like actually. This is being done way too much like damn okay. Well let's figure out something better but instead he doesn't yeah because he just he wants to do this thing he wants to fuck with people's brains likes it exactly also are you. Are you you song of ice and Fire Guy at all or oh yeah yeah. Yeah Yeah I think born Yeah the catcher. Because there's always that to medical history where there's like I look at it. And there's more I'm sure but just cyclist competition. I look at like there's people who learn what medicine works. And they dedicate their life to helping people and then there's the other type of person who has no problem just poking around putting things together and then seeing what comes of mm-hmm and a lot of times you get advancements out of that you find out something that works. Yeah but they might not necessarily be the same type of traditional doctor who wants to help someone. They're just very recuse and have the ability to just dig around in people's innards to see what can work where and that always creeps me out isn't. Isn't that great. Yeah Yeah you want to plug your plug ables Daniel. I do People should go to Daniel van. Kirk Dot com there. You you can see all of my dates and where I'm going to be I've got December second. I'm doing a show at Largo on November twenty a second I will be headlining in Petaluma California and other tour dates and things as well but most importantly you can get my album Thanks Diane drops so November fifteenth. It's if you're hearing this before then you can pre buy the album at the apple store APP in your phone or go to Daniel Van Kirk Dot com and you can click through to are there. When you do that you'll get an instant track called? Don't be a Dick which I'm proud of but you'll get the whole album on eleven fifteen number fifteenth and go to Daniel Van Kirk Dot Com for all that or listen to me on my podcast dump people town which I do at the sklar brothers or pen pals which I do with Rory Scoville cool. Yeah well well I am Robert Evans. You can find me on the Internet at Behind the bastards dot com or the sources for this episode will be including a Jackal highs. Wonderful Book Slobodan You can find us on twitter and Instagram at bastards pod. You can find me on twitter at I right okay and you can find love in your a heart as long as you're willing to put an ice pick into your brain so Again this is my encouragement to all of our listeners. To grab an ice pick and start lobotomize ing be a hero. Dr Freeman do we can we. Can we urge people to to carry out unlicensed surgery. No but you could plug your other podcasts. I have

Dr Walter Freeman Lobotomy Rosemary Kennedy Freeman United States America Walter Freeman Joe Kennedy Luke. thome Dr James Watts Kennedy CIA Kirk Daniel Joe Joe Dr Howard Friedman schizophrenia Dr Freeman Astra John Robert Kennedy State Hospital Freeman
Bite Marks

Sworn

39:55 min | 4 months ago

Bite Marks

"Place your left hand on the Bible and raise your right hand. And please repeat after me, I do solemnly swear. Title that you find the defendant guilty from it makes no sense. It doesn't fit. If, it doesn't fit. Pasta quit. Office, we are all bound by that common commitment to support and defend the constitution. Do Bear True Faith and allegiance to say that you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth from ten foot TV, an iheartradio. This is. I'm your host Philip. Holloway. You know the term, the CSI affect. It changed everything. Everybody believed that what you saw TV was for real. You don't use forty two lasers at the crime scene interest costs about five our space. So that was preposterous, right? Nothing gets done today. And say another share, my wife walks up. A Crow Paixao, someone's hop. And they'd carries it all. And when they found ball, they found a fingerprint on the album. Preposterous our best. Is Not like that. Saint they get lost and the fact that. Show. They start having to explain to the juries. Do you believe things that you see? Oh? Yeah. If it's on TV, it's it's. That's not how it is. That was Chris Robinson, a forensic consultant I've worked with many of my cases. In this episode, we're going to look at that CSI, he was talking about. And we're going to hear the story of another man who was locked up for twenty three years in a case that involved police corruption and junk. Science. Before we hear about bill, I wanted to talk with my colleague Ashley Merchant. She's a lawyer. I've worked with many times in the past and I know that she's had to educate herself on forensic science particularly bad for is science and how it's used in our legal system. Junk. Science is very difficult to deal with when the government offers something and they put a fancy name on it like the FBI or the crime lab, and you know they bring in all these these fancy names and stuff juries just eat it up hook line and sinker. A. Lot of defense attorneys aren't very good at shutting white on the junkiest factor of it. Because you know, we're lawyers like I've never shot a gun. You know, I don't understand ballistics, but I had to learn how to learn blood splatter and learn DNA and a learn about fingerprints. I had a case. Fifteen years ago with a handwriting expert. and. Then a couple years later, boom handwriting experts are junk science and it's not admissible. We have this evidence that the state presents handwriting, for example, blood. Spider, for example, and we're arguing s defense lawyers this crazy. This junk you know, and then finally years down the road you get exoneration. And the accommodations are linked to this junk science, and finally retrospectively, the government's thank you know what you're. Right. That handwriting staff was that was crazy. The people are still in jail. As defense lawyers. I think we don't challenge it enough. I think that we don't question authority enough. Because, science, we believe that the government is doing the right thing and doing their job. which to me as a defense lawyer scary because if I don't question the blood splatter, why would expect the jury to question what's? The you see a lot of times when in trials where the defense has no question from the blood splatter expert. Is Ages rubber-stamped the stuff. Just, because some scientists in a lab says that it is they don't really question it. And Juries don't question and defense lawyers don't question. And I understand why? Because we're Hamstrung, we're not scientists were not given funding for expert. I mean half the time we're still trying to get paid. You know, let alone asking our clients family for ten grand for an expert to fly in who's got a PhD Indian DNA. They barely have the money for their defense. We don't challenge that evidence, but I think we need to. Want, actual physical touch evidence. Evidence, they can put their hands on, they can see. You see a huge pole for the prosecution to get this type of science junk science, whatever it is to try and admit that. It's fallible because it's a scientist determining if it's a fingerprint match. The next might not determined fingerprint match. We do have standards. We do have certain standards that have to be met. We have FRY and our our standards in federal court. Anytime, YOU'RE GONNA admit certain type of evidence. It's got to meet a certain level of scientific reliability. One, of the things that has to be subject. Peer Review. Other scientists have to be able to go and check your work. That's a huge one. In State Court in Georgia. For example, we have a standard called Harper Standard, which is lower. It's ironic to me and I always use. My husband has example he was a civil litigator before he joined my law firm and now he does criminal defense with me. He. Did a lot of these massive litigations that had all these fancy scientists and things. He did Asbestos Litigation a lot of it. When he came on as criminal fence like we when you're taking someone's life. It's a lower standard for admitting evidence. It's harder to get evidence and there's higher standard reliability to get evidence in a civil case. We're suing over money than it is in a criminal case where someone can go to jail. Since nine. People I mean they, they want guilty people to be locked up. People are scared of letting guilty people out and a lot of times. The state argues need. We can't meet the frye standard. It can't be verified, but we need this evidence. I, mean, I hear that argument all the time from the state, and I really need this evidence. So the judge listen I think that you should have a higher standard. When you're dealing with people's lives versus you're dealing with people's money. Just. Makes Common Sense to me. One man who had that CSI effect work against him is our next exonerate Bill Richards. Archers in California here is one of the prison systems in the world. We. Have more people in prison hair than most countries. fell. On every level. Especially for somebody who the normal life and working men. You know honest person. I mean, my criminal career consider couple traffic tickets spread over twenty years speeding on a three way. Everything is terrible. The medicalised terrible. Now in my late sixties advanced cancer, they didn't treat me person. Years, and you add it didn't even tell me and now it's too late. I mean I can't think of anything that isn't terrible under house. Describe it. Could go on for weeks, never scratched to Sir I. Show abnormal for a union being put under those conditions. My Name. Is William Richards Time John. I served twenty three years for on my didn't commit and I've been out for post tree now. At my age I'm just trying to live on retirement and put a life together. I. Came on my wife did. She murdered. Depletion during times actually because I was a bit upset as you can imagine, and they take a long time getting their. First. Cop. On crime scene was just a patrolman. Everything met said, is proving to be ally not only that night, but everything he shows anytime. He's a strange. But he turned around and decide. He's Camolese got the Guy Right here. He said my actions are toil. She come home and find your wife show like I did, what are your actions posted this? So he decided I was guilty told detectives. They. decided that by the time they got the crime scene and never investigated than never collected. DNA out fingerprints anything from the crime scene. And, just proceeded to start a case against me. Every cop understand lied to find evidence destroyed sculpture yet. But. There's a big up for civil actions but. They decide on a course to get the suspect and that was it just profiled the husband's always guilty. At times, she died that were forty six miles wayne and never sitting in another county and I was in building thirty people. It was a secure millet. Traffic. The toll was allowed to testify time with that based on his fashion experience with their bodies, which of course, we've now proven his. Real doctors had their injuries are not wife as true hours old pirated bit determine. She'd been dead for several hours home. Police have total control over the crunch. And the coroner's investigator whose job decline scenes body did not have an opportunity to examine the body and collect information that would have made it easy to determine time of death. To two doctors and look at the case independently for the defense had to look for, she'll stuff you know things like photographs of injuries and say injuries over two hours prior to death. But. They didn't get the body temperatures and things like that. That would be paying. I, think it's a huge mistake for the police and bills to have handled the crime scene. The way they did, but I also know that as a defense lawyer I have to build a case off of reports and photographs long after the alleged crime has been committed. I spoke with Chris Robinson, the forensic consultant. You heard at the beginning of the episode about what kinds of things at in the files that he gets and the reliability of the forensics that he works with. A name is Christopher Robinson I'm a forensic consultant, Jelly, examine reports, evidence documents, photographs, and I report my findings back to the attorneys who hired me. I'm certified. There's of Crime Scene Reconstruction Ballistics and Firearms, analysis, gunshot wounds, blood spattered analysis, shooting reconstruction. Say The beautiful thing with what I do. Now, they give me the entire case file and they say read this, here's the statements. Tell us is our client lying is you tell the truth? Do you think it's validated about what you say and then our report that? I'm working a case where an individual's a shot at his mother down a hallway and she's given all these statements. She said, she heard the bullet Khobar ear nagging handbook ear because he's forty five. So it's not breaking the sound barrier. And in the holes in the wall are not lying that puts her. He had something. You didn't hear the book by Your Hit, the faster the bullet, the sound ways begin to spread out perpendicular to the bullet his elusive year. A slower bullet. They move with the bullets. Boat had almost touch your leg. Fail it. You hear the concussion from the gun. Your Jerky is one, hundred, sixty decibels, slalom chainsaw and. Right beside your head. I'm already thinking man. I. Don't like your story because you tell me what you believe. You heard ness. I'm not calling her liar. I'm his saying, that's why like the evidence the evidence doesn't lie. It's simple. When you look at the evidence, you pull trajectory rods through the homes of the shot, you triangulate back the path of bullets. How the Gani Jake's the cartridge cases. And when you put all these things together, I'm giving the statement and I'm absent a man. See can't happen this way because this year. One of the things Amelia. Brought up in the last episode was how forensic science needs to change and evolve with. New. Technology. Matter is very speculative. You have three or four people get the same blood splatter and they'll give you a different variation of what they see. You have to be careful because at a scene whether whether's massive amounts of blood spattered. You have transfers, things you have cast also stains, you have have Lhasa, be velocity low velocity when she might call me and I'll looking things more like a local acidy. I. Do that a lot where they'll call him their expert and up against stamping his just jury has to listen to us and they make the decision. The biggest problem is when they forensics is not tested by an outside source. One of the things I admire about Chris, and one of the reasons I've used him in my own cases is that he doesn't necessarily draw his own seasonable conclusions, but he lets the evidence speak for itself. Give, my opinion what I believe happened how I believe it happened. I can't speak to someone's intentions. The gun accidentally went off. Okay. First of all, I'm going to look at again and I must say this gun is functioning as it was designed to punch. This gun is perfect. Did you actually main to squeeze the trigger with three pounds? Five eight pounds? SC was begin to Tina twelve pounds, which is a double action trigger. pull a heavy trigger pull, which means she had the pulled the trigger all the way to the rear. I'M GONNA. Let you go. You didn't accidentally pull a twelve pounds. Now. When you have a gun at two or three pound triple. What were the circumstances I? Took my gun down off the counter you came in and grabbed the gun and it was your instinct. I'm going to pull away from you. So if you grabbed again and pull towards you and I pull away from you, we start to divide that way to the trigger pull. A. Better. Look at your body, though you better have gun paddle beer clothing, you better have stabling on your stamp. Koshiba. Within three feet. Have power all your reach out. Grab. That gun. When he's brought in to testify his role is to satisfy the jury's desire for that physical hands on type of evidence. Sometimes. That can even mean putting on something of a show for the jury. When you go on there and are rolling around the floor and the jury they're amazed. I'm always told when I come in the jury Pirka. I'm talking about guns. I'm not talking about DNA where God forbid you talk about one quadri, the low side. They glaze over. Why talk about guns? Everybody's seen again, a bullet. McCarthy's they really get up and and get off the stand and they say shows how his happened and I'm rolling around the floor or get out the dummy this he were scandal and now. I tell people you play to the strengths. If you can do a recreation, I, say you will meet to get then the jury starch. Thanks now, I? Understand this is how it happened. Photograph has great. Pictures were thousand words but recreation in front of the court. It's it's amazing. I've seen Chris work. I've seen him in court I've seen him out of court, I've seen him test-firing. Firearms I've seen wrestling with dummies in a courtroom. It's strong visual, it crabs the jury's attention, and it keeps them interested in anytime as a lawyer, you get the opportunity to educate a jury and keep their attention and have them learn something that they did not know about before I'm going to take advantage of that opportunity. I wife midnight something up since about seven that morning. And they let me go five or six next afternoon. So I'd been up thirty seven hours without sleep. Probably twenty hours without food and under intense interrogation, you know trying to get me to confess. King down again, trying to help them I thought, they would actually start looking for a real chiller which was mistake because they didn't. So I was actually in the police station for another fifteen hours of intense interrogation, which is not what I came down four. And, then just finally said, well, as you miss you gender arrest I always thought, okay. What I DID ADMINISTER I've been a It was such a stupid thing to say. That's you get so many skulls, confessions, I can tell you having been through these things. I could see people just give up the crat exchanging lodge long. I listened to tapes. There's an edited tape that they claim this interrogation. But of course, there's thirty hours interrogation ever to our. But even on that I, hear myself giving them things that I didn't want to say because I didn't remember did think they were true but Sherman so that. I lawyer was very good, but he's the December. had. Considerable equity in my land and stuff I could have hired a big name lawyer had one lined up. And that's when I found out that froze my asset. They had not resonated first night, which surprised everybody that they did a few weeks later in that period time, it filed papers to my assets. Good name attorney. He would have walked up in their told the court look. There's no evidence. Let them go and it makes all the difference in the world. Now, we have such a vast amount of adventured innocence. DNA, we have hair. We have kinds of things that proved. To, killer. But. When you're sitting there and trial and you had no investigation and so forth to help you, it's kind of a one sided system. Like the other exonerates this season. I asked bill what he thought, the biggest factor was in the jury finding him guilty. This time it was something. All of our forensic experts have brought up time and again. By evidence. Out Our hand that I saw that you will. Pros at the time I believe that these trends exchange, it's unreal. I've learned that they're mostly junk. The jury was told us as mine and turns out that when it computer comparisons after conviction. None of that was true. And that was the only thing that really changed in the last trial was bite. That's pretty damning when you come in here and they're all garbage into wall, we had arguments every couple as. They beat you up all this stuff that hitch anybody Shefa make it sound much worse. But when you sit there and say look, there's a vice on her body from the fight and it's How they listening? I wanted to know more about bite mark science or as it's more formerly known forensic odontologist. This is Dr Freeman. I'm a forensic odontologist located out of Westport, Connecticut. and. I am the current chair of the Orion Technology Section of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences. My Office Westport Connecticut is very close to New York. City were about a forty five minute drive. And, in the aftermath of nine eleven, we lost several patients. As part of that cross. Aimed very apparent that there was not enough people. Involved at a very granular level. That really knew forensics. So my example would be there were some dentists that had done some identification word, but real no formal education in the totality of forensics, and they typically were the leaders of these operations. Ham. One of those people that I don't like to be a little bit educated in something if I'm GonNa do something I, really WanNa, be the guy or one of the guys that knows the most about it. So, there really are three areas that runs on tolliday. You're used in criminal case. One and probably the one that I am most proud of in our field, his dental identification. Often people are found dead and they need to be scientifically identified. and very often teeth or used as that identification. Also is an out shoot of that is where there's a mass disaster like Hurricane Katrina or nine eleven. Hurricane I wear dentists were called into do idenfifications on lots of people. You are giving back a person, the dignity of dying with a name. Another area is bite mark identification. And that is much more controversial today and I have testified -an in several of those cases. And, then there's dental. Hey, justification which is becoming. much more controversial because of the way it's being applied versus the way I believe it was originally designed to be applied. Bite Mark Identification of a perpetrator has added space several hypotheses. The first one is that t thirty unique to an individual? Only. A individual has teeth of a certain shape size arrangement that hypothesis has never been proven. The second hypothesis is skin can accurately record a bite. That, also has never been proven. Scientific research currently doesn't even suggests that experts can even identify with some reliability what a bite mark looks like. Has An example of that myself and a colleague of Mine, Dr Pretty at Manchester England. We sent every board certified forensic Dennis, a hundred different cases where there were several photographs and said, is this a bite mark? Very similar to what happens when I'm presented kids. When I'm presented a case. Typically, law enforcement will send some images of a suspected injury that they think might be a bite mark and my job is to of pine as to whether or not. That injury is or is not a bite or. What we did is we did that same sort of experiment and there was widespread disagreement as to whether or not an injury that they were looking at was in fact, a bite ARP. So the ground science that predisposes us the ability to do this bite mark work isn't there yet, the work continues to be done. There are those who have said to me. I believe that this is possible and my response typically as when issues of life and liberty are at stake. Your belief as to whether or not something can be done is not important whether or not. You can scientifically support your opinions. And the science is not there for by. It is my opinion that bite mark shouldn't be used in courts of law at all. Until we produce some science that suggests that Prensa Goat on top, I can agree generally what a bite mark is. I think actually in bill. Richards case in looking at that Bite Bar I'm not sure that that's even a bite. Dr Freeman has seen the evidence in bills case first hand. So I asked him for his professional opinion on the evidence left on bills. Wise hand. So, in that particular case which are looking at is there's a very diffuse peruse. Mark, or I would call the patterned injury. I didn't see anything on the other side of the hand. For a bite to happen tissue has to be crushed between the upper and lower teeth, leave Bruce, and that's really one of the problems with bite marks when somebody is bitten, how you bruise versus how high bruise could be very different. The typist can you have the coloration of your skin? All of the listeners here, I'm sure of had situations where they bump into something in May. And other people don't. And then clearly when you look at the injury on Mrs Richards, hand it's a very wide bruce. TV. Are Very narrow that surely isn't individual teeth you're looking at I surely would have swabbed it for DNA and suggested it'd be swabbed for salivary allies. That injury shortly does not belong in a criminal, court? I think that the place that bite marks have, and probably the strongest piece we have forum is that if you see something that looks like a suspected by mark what. do instruct the police in the medical examiner's office to swab that area. For both DNA. And salivary Emily's. So. SALIVARY amylase enzyme that is in human saliva. So that would show that it is human. and. Secondly, DNA, that is a great purpose for human bite. Marks. I don't think a lot of the people who did bite marquesses curly on, went into it with some malicious attitude. I think that they went into it thinking they were doing what was cutting edge science where I find it reprehensible. Is that when science has presented itself, showing that what they believed isn't in fact, true. They typically don't accept science itself. What they do is they say, well, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I absolutely believe that it is morally wrong to use questionable friends ex in criminal trials. Where there's issues of life and liberty, it should not be done by anybody until the science supports. When people fight so hard. To keep a modality. That has not been scientifically supported. It makes me question their motives. I. Also questioned those motives and I wonder why someone would be more interested in validating a belief than finding the actual truth. But I think this happens more than people know. I can understand that people feel proud in their work and on some level, they might not want it question. But like Dr Freeman said when it comes to something as precious one's life or their liberty, someone's personal ego just should not get in the way. Push out was deadlocked the native fish today. Say Sixty six. Second worn whereas declared a mistrial because the judges talking to somebody connect new point of the jurors. And then it. Fair trial, which is also bit locked. And the last trial, even with the bite evidence came back, bed locked, but the judge refused to accept. An order the find the verdict I'm going to keep you here. At had someone should would have. Let me go. One of the jurors come in and WanNa talk to my team. Basically say she had been bullied in the jury room but detained judge trial judge with let's talk to her. Given that he had so many trials I was curious as to what kinds of deals might have been offered to bill behind the scenes. They offered deals mostly after the first trial. They took a real beating. They started off in time Sir actually. By the time I've been in less than two years. Let's say two year deal long-term manslaughter, but I couldn't do that. I didn't do this. You know took my gamble fight it all away. As defense attorney, it's in my interest to get the best outcome possible for my clients, and sometimes that means making a deal. In fact, the vast majority of criminal cases are resolved through some type of negotiated agreement. I completely understand bills hesitation here to plead guilty to a crime. He did not commit I. See People Day who are asked to make compromise, and sometimes they're compromises that people just can't make. Bill Richards was convicted of first degree murder and served twenty three years of ally sense. You go in there and got learn a whole language, a whole new pecking order living under such strange conditions. You have all the different gangs when you have all the different actions in each gang you have to adapt you have to you have to survive. And that's not easy. I of describe it like being the bottom of a well. You're looking up if there's you know you're innocent. Things ally. You can't get any representation that would stand up and present this. Better description be jumping airplane parachute. You know you're going to die but just keep laughing your anyway. My after it's gone mud lost everything had in person. They put me to work with couple times and chops remember years. Where I was teaching staff I was teaching inmates how to do all these things are dining building things for them. They had all these trends that needed to be done and nobody had crew. How to do it. You know I have. Twenty years background and I was teaching them how to do all these things. I'm things how to design things and structural strength of power would have to run and solemn. You'd make thirty cents an hour, and they take fifty, five percent back. John, fourteen cents an hour. And that doesn't go real far. Prices. The, canteen prison stores are expensive. I was very angry a long time, but eventually, I think he just rejected and go on. You can't stay angry for twenty five years. They'll burn you out if you do new be one miserable person. I'm very, very unhappy, but that anger anger reactionary emotion and you just can't maintain that so many years. A. Bill was exonerated and eventually released in two thousand sixteen. Unlike, our other exonerates his case was so personal. He lost everything including his wife. So I asked him. If at the very least they caught the person who murdered his wife. No because personally, I don't believe fleet overlooked. They didn't look. It's all comes back to the place. They decided the first night. I was the guy they called fringe people who worked under them and that was it. Everything just went down like a born out of an airplane. You're. GonNa die it's going down because everybody is working against you. Before we wrap up forensic science, I wanted to bring back Justin Brooks from the California innocence. Project. He sees cases like bills all the time. We've got an innocence organization in Holland and when I go over there, there's so much more scrutiny given. So many more resources and they still have wrongful convictions. So. All we can do is is minimized the number of wrongful convictions and the best way to minimize it is through education and training. One of the things. That's always made me crazy as it seems, the defense says a lot on trouble getting. Resources of the government ask. So when a defense attorney wants to get testing done wants access to the labs wants to get the same kind of ability develop evidence as the government has they don't have the same resources. There's to lot of pseudoscience out there. But the problem is a lot of times. These jurors treat all these sciences, the same. If you have an expert saying it's a science. We've seen the same thing in the area of arson that in the past, a lot of the arson experts or actually just bored firemen, love CSI and that a lot of time on their hands. So you have a bunch of people who are sitting in prison on bad fire science. So I think we have a real problem with expertise in these areas and jurors when they hear this stuff they're convicting. Because an expert stands up and says a my expert opinion, this person's guilty. Here's why. Get. Convictions. One of the things that's important to me in my work, and in this show is making sure that we cover everything from his many sides. As possible I've seen the work of Chris Robinson and Tracy Sargent and action. But I also know that many people have been wrongfully convicted because of forensic science or perhaps more accurately because of the myth application of science or of junk sites. I think all the phrase it professionals, we spoke to a right when they said that forensic science should just be one of many tools in an investigative toolbox. It's important to keep in mind if you're ever sitting on a jury or if just hearing about a trial in the news that science is not perfect and that includes forensic science. There's often more to the story than what one piece of information might suggest. Having people like Chris or Dr Freeman testifying courtroom about what they're disciplined can and cannot do is vitally important to getting to the true facts of a case. I know how important it is to explain all aspects of a case to a jury, and the best way I've seen that done especially in cases involving science is to bring in experts. These. Experts can explain this stuff in a way that it's not so complicated as so that a juror who is not a scientist can understand the subject matter. As forensic science progresses and changes. Expert witnesses are becoming increasingly vital as part of a complete and fair trial. In my opinion funds for experts should be available to all people just as the right to counsel is available to all people and all stages of the criminal process, and that includes a trial. Also want to reiterate what and Dr Freeman both said. That one of the most important aspects of any science is for the disciplines to evolve as new research comes in. We are in an incredible age of technology where more and more information is available than ever before. As we become more and more dependent on science, it is vitally important that we use science responsibly and that we do. So accurately, a big part of my job is staying up to date with new laws and changes in the legal system. Scientists are no different. A big part of their job is to make sure they are current with the latest science. Everyone in the criminal justice system lawyers police officers, judges. Medical Examiners, perincic chemists, all these people. Oh, it to defend its own trial to be as accurate as possible as Dr. Freeman said a mere belief that something might work is not enough. You must base it on science. Especially when lives in liberty are on the line. In the next episode, we'll focus on that particular problem that all of the exonerates we spoken to have brought up. Interrogation techniques, and false. Confessions. Next. Time on. Sworn. Study published just a few years ago out Canada power. Suggestion makes them minced ordinary people that as a teenager that committed a crime. Actually came to investigate and oftentimes people are they're trying to figure this out. Now, my mother told you this must have happened, knock knocking out. What did I plant seaney somewhere? What was I with my best friend when we did and they pretty much talk themselves into constructing something? That's. Never. happened. SWORN PRODUCTION OF TENDER FOOT TV an iheartradio, our lead producer is Christina, Dana. Executive, producers are pain Lindsey and Donald. Albright for Tender Foot TV Matt Frederick and Alex Williams for iheartradio and Myself Philip Holloway additional production by Trevor Young. Mason. Lindsey Mike Rooney. Jamie Albright. Halley beat all. Original music and sound design by makeup and Vanity set. Our theme song is blood in the water by layup show art and design is by Trevor. eyler editing by Christina Dana Mixing and mastering Mike Rooney and Cooper skinner. Special. Thanks to the team at iheartradio. From Uta. Oren Rosenbaum, and grace. Royer Ryan Nord and Matthew Pappa from the North Group Back Media and marketing and stationed sixteen. I'd also like to extend a very personal and special thanks to all of our contributors and guests who have helped to make all of these episodes possible. You can find sworn on facebook twitter and Instagram at sworn podcast and follow me your host Philip. Holloway. On twitter at Phil. Holloway Es. Cute. Our website is sworn podcast dot com and you can check out other tender foot TV podcast at www dot tender foot. Dot. TV. If. You have questions or comments. You can email us at sworn at tinder foot, DOT TV or leave US voicemail at four, zero, four, four, one, zero, zero, four, one. As always, thanks for listen. They're all that. How were you able to maintain your innocent of your sense that this could be fixed? Well. You know I've seen other guy's perfectly honest. I've seen other people in a situation like minded hung themselves or something like that. was me I wasn't doing that. Other people just endure and shit there decade after decade prison innocent like I did. I'm just disturbing bastard I would give up you know.

Chris Robinson Dr. Freeman attorney scientist Bill Richards CSI Philip Holloway consultant iheartradio Mark Identification A. Bill California FBI Pasta American Academy of Forensic S twitter Lhasa Ashley Merchant PhD Indian DNA
S13: Halloween: Dr. Walter Freeman Pt. 1

Parcast Presents

45:03 min | Last month

S13: Halloween: Dr. Walter Freeman Pt. 1

"When it comes to treating patients, every doctor has their tools stethoscope. Check. The Monitor. Check. ICE, pick. If you enjoy these episodes on the deranged neurologists to Walter Freeman. Be Sure to follow the series medical murders. Every Wednesday means the worst the medical community has to offer. Men and women who choose to hurt not he`ll Listen to medical murders free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Listener discretion is advised. This episode features discussions of medical malpractice, mental health conditions, and surgical procedures that may be upsetting. We advise extreme caution for listeners under thirteen. There's a common saying about professionals and their work always use the right tool for the job. Doctors trained for years to know which medicines and procedures will best help patients. And for episode today another famous saying is more fitting. When you have a hammer every problem looks like A. Nail. Today we'll explore how one doctor's ego led him to believe that he could cure any mental illness. With an ice pick. This is medical murders occur cost original for decades thousands of medical students have taken the hippocratic oath. It boils down to do no harm. But a closer look reveals a phrase much more interesting. I must not play it God. However. Some Doctors Break Fatto, choosing to play God with that patients deciding who lives and who dies. Each week on medical murders we'll investigate those who decided to kill. We'll explore the specifics of how the operates don't just on their patients but within the own minds examining the psychology and neurology behind heartless medical killers I'm Alistair Murden, an joined by Dr David Cooper nd. Hi Everyone. This is Dr Kipper. I'm very happy to be here to assist Alastair with medical insight and information into the killer's modus operandi, and I'm very excited to hear the story of Dr Freeman. You can find episodes of medical murders and all other podcast originals a free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream medical modus for free on spotify, just open the APP and type medical murders in the search bar. This is our first episode on Dr. Walter. Freeman a neurologist and medical professor who performed thousands of lobotomies on patients with mental illnesses for over three decades guided by dreams of fame and willful ignorance Freeman performed many of his operations without proper consent. While murder was never his intention. His callous use of lobotomy resulted in the deaths of over four hundred people around fifteen percent of his patients. Today we look at the influence of Freemen's education and family dynasty on his ego as well as his discovery of the lobotomy technique. Next time, we'll follow his growing obsession with the procedure and his eventual downfall. Or this and more coming up stay with. US. six-year-old Angeline Ionescu was scared. She didn't know when her mother Ellen was going to get angry again. It was a wintery day in January nineteen, forty, six and ellen was lying in bed with another dark bout of depression. Angeline was at her bedside watching over her sick mother, but Ellen wouldn't look at her. She only stead at the ceiling. Occasionally. Ellen pointed up at the blank white space above her telling Angeline to look at the wires. Those with the torture devices, her mother told her. But angeline knew there were no Wyans and nobody was torturing her mother. The only person torturing anyone was ellen. Her aggressive mood swings catch the whole family on edge. Angeline never knew when her mother was going to explode aggression. One day ellen leaped out of bed and prove that a young daughter was right to be scared blinded by a fit of Rage Ellen attacked angeline and tried to suffocates the little girl to death. That was the law Straw. The Ionescu family decided to get medical help for Ellen. A short time later on January Seventeenth Nineteen forty-six, the Ionescu family brought Allen to talk to Walter Freeman at his Washington DC office. Angeline thought Dr Freeman was a kind man he smiled at her and he had a funny. White. Moustache? He spoke calmly describing some kind of procedure that angeline couldn't understand. then. Dr Freeman. Quietly took Lennon's back room and close the door. A few minutes. Later, the patient room was filled with a strange clicking sound like someone tapping two small rocks together. Just moments later Dr Freeman. Brought Allen back out of the room. As Ellen recovered angeline believe it her mother was serene and happy. Ellen. Angeline which made the little girl ecstatic. Whatever Dr Freeman had done it had apparently cured her mother's strange illness. Eleanor ESCO symptoms are typical of patients suffering from mental illness and a good diagnosis in her case would be a bipolar disorder. In the nineteen forties however, psychiatric diagnoses were nonspecific and defined by manifesting behaviors liked depression anxiety and mania. Back then the brain was only superficially understood and our knowledge came strictly from autopsies and the behaviors that we were able to understand. There were no imaging studies and the link between Neuro Chemistry and these disorders was yet to be realized. In other words, doctors didn't know. How To cure mental illness. They only knew how to treat the resulting symptoms. By eliminating Ellen symptoms Dr Freeman was a hero to the Ionescu? Family And that was an intoxicating feeling. Freeman was used to being admired, but now he wanted more. While this was merely the first time he performed this procedure alone it felt like he discovered a new path in his career. Freeman. Finally heading for the recognition he deserved. Even if he had to endanger his patients to achieve it. After all, he'd always been destined for greatness in the field of medicine. Not only was freeman a doctor, but he was cited by doctors his bloodline included several famous physicians including Stephen Kemp a founder of the New Jersey Medical Society. But freemen's most prominence. Relative was his grandfather neurosurgeon William Keane. At the turn of the twentieth century Keane was arguably America's most famous surgeon. He had been the surgeon for the US army during the civil war and was the first surgeon to remove a brain tumor from living patient. Keane was even the medical consultant, for presidents, Grover Cleveland and Franklin Roosevelt. Alongside his lineage freemen's Ivy League education solidified his belief in his own prowess especially when he challenged authority. While studying at Yale University Freeman took a clandestine photograph during a meeting of the scroll and key society one of the oldest and most infamous secret societies. The existence of a photograph alone was enough to stir up controversy the facts that Freeman sent it to the New York Times for publication made him notorious on campus. But thanks to his new found fame he managed to evade any repercussions. When he graduated from Yale in Nineteen, Sixteen Freeman moved onto the next step of his obvious career path he went to medical school at the University of Pennsylvania. Freeman believed he was destined to become famous name in the field of neurology. His heroes when you're surgeons like Charles, frazier and Williams spillers, both of whom revolutionized the understanding of the brain in the early twentieth century. Freeman was lucky enough to work with both of them during his medical training which likely furthered his belief in a predestined career. His Ego was stoked by the influence and he saw how highly regarded by their patients and their peers. Some of these neurologists made groundbreaking discoveries in a lab without ever performing surgery or S- looking through the arduous task of getting surgeons license they revolutionize the field they with the best the best. Naturally. Freeman. Wanted to be one of them. Throughout history doctors have been highly regarded across world among the cream of the crop are neurosurgeons who's were chance to be revered. This is largely due to their intensive training and the immensely complicated nature of the brain itself. Naturally, the doctor's perceived importance increases exponentially the bore their specialty is tied to the difference between life and death. In other words, the more lives at doctor can directly save the more supposed value they generally hold. Because this many doctors, find themselves in positions of immense power and respect however for a doctor to be effective and ethical ego needs to be checked at the door helping patients should always physicians I concern. And Freeman did want to help his patients but once he left academia and began treating real patients, he discovered there was simply too many to help. After Freeman finished his residency in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four, his famous grandfather get. As a laboratory director at Saint Elizabeth's Hospital, in Washington DC. Freeman was disappointed in this job. At a prestigious academic career alongside his neurosurgeon heroes, he had appliance to teach them at his alma mater in Pennsylvania but it being rejected. twenty-eight-year-old Freeman found a bit of comfort in the fact that he wants to be the youngest director of laboratories in Saint Elizabeth's history, and he felt much better about his job after he learned about the reputation of the Hospitals Institution for the insane. Saint Elizabeth's was home to nearly five thousand patients with mental health conditions and Saint Elizabeth's was hardly unique. The number of psychiatric patients and hospitals in the US have increased significantly in the previous twenty years. Freeman found himself in charge of research at one of the busiest mental hospitals in the country, and he was determined to turn around. The psychiatric hospital was seven decades old and in rapid decline, it had become little more than a dilapidated warehouse for patients with Schizophrenia Dementia and psychosis. As he walked through the over stuffed wards Freeman said he felt so weird mixture of fear disgust and shame. He was intrigued by the helplessness of these patients but not outs of sympathy alone Freeman. A medical mystery that only he could solve. For him patients will research opportunities. He. Dove into treatment research for the fervor. The other doctors and nurses couldn't believe Freeman quickly developed a reputation for trying unconventional treatments like chemical injections that traveled quickly into the brain and a fast invasive procedure. He called a jiffy spinal tap. But freemen's procedures were hardly worse than the other treatments for mental illness that were popular at the time. It's true among the fast acting injectables used to treat mental illness in the nineteen forties was sodium atoll known today as Zamel barbital sodium. Atoll is barb ituen derivative or a drug known to slow down the nervous system. This drug was used in the thirties and forties to temporarily reverse catatonic state of patients. With Schizophrenia Cata Tonia is a state where people are very rigid and they're posturing and they also have a very muted dialogue and this is something that we see very frequently with schizophrenia. When taking a barbituate in these situations, these behaviors seem to normalize the downsides to this were the intense dependence, the drug created and the issue of death by overdose. Another example is electroshock therapy now known as electro convulsive there. This involves electrically inducing seizures disrupt the brain activity in the nineteen forties. This treatment was much harsher than it is today because it was usually conducted without muscle relaxants. As a result, induce seizures would lead to full-scale convulsions and could cause bone fractures and dislocations in the jaw an upper spine. While these treatments were much less refined in the past, they still exist today as extreme last resort options for dealing with mental health disorders. while. These treatments rarely killed any patients. Some were left with seizures and permanent brain damage often in addition to the original symptoms. But these procedures had mild success whereas treatments that did not physically effect the brain with frequently ineffective. Freeman was convinced that a fix mental illness one had to fix the brain itself. So, he shifted his research from treating living patients to opening the skulls of dead ones. If, there was a defect in the brain freeman was going to find it. Coming up Freeman finds a new technique and his first victim. This episode is brought to you by bio life plasma services. Now more than ever people want to know if there's anything they can do to help and the answer is, yes had bio life plasma services. Your plasma is desperately needed to create life changing medicines to help treat people with immune deficiencies. Those were most risk right now and when you donate plasma by alive, you can earn up to six hundred dollars in your first month as a token of appreciation for your time. So please become a donor at bio life visit vile life plasma dot com to schedule an appointment. Now back to the story. By the early nineteen hundreds, Dr Walter Freeman considered himself an expert on mental illness as the director of laboratories? Saint Elizabeth. Psychiatric. Hospital he was the full most authority over thousands of mental patients. But his research had stalled. After dozens of autopsies, he could find no physical abuse maladies that might explain the mental health conditions of his patients. Freeman was disheartened. He had hoped to discover a physical cause for mental illness in the brain and perhaps even have it named after him. Instead. His work was far from groundbreaking. He said, I recognize that I'd done nothing important in either explaining mental disorders or treating them. Over Freeman had proven with his tedious autopsies was that the brain of a person suffering from mental illness looked just like anyone else's. This meant that such illness came from within the brain's neural network. Some parts of the CORTEX was disrupting neurological functions. Freeman began to suspect the frontal lobes. Freeman had the idea that the frontal lows were the source of mental health and behavioral conditions he was onto something. Located right. Behind our foreheads the frontal lobes are in charge of such things as voluntary movements, language expression, and greater executive functioning. This includes the ability to logically plan ahead and self-regulate our emotional responses because of the complex layered reasoning that takes place in this portion of the brain the frontal lobes have been deemed responsible for our personality is manifested. One famous case study. The led to this assertion is a story of famous gauge construction forman in eighteen, forty, eight, whose left frontal lobe was pierced by large iron rod during a workplace accident. Despite retaining normal motor skills, speech and memory gauges temperament changed significantly as he was more prone to impatience inured ability. This story no doubt had an effect on freemen's inklings. And Freeman wasn't alone in his suspicions while Reading Medical Journal. In the spring of Nineteen thirty six he found an article about a doctor doing revolutionary procedures on frontal lobe tissue. On March. Third Nineteen Thirty six Portuguese. Neurologist Antonio Knees. Performed a new surgical procedure. He called a Lukasz Amee. Monet's believed that misfiring synapses in the frontal lobe were responsible for the symptoms of many mentally ill patients. So he sought to deactivate the synopses. He did this by drilling two holes went on either side of the patient's skull then injecting pure alcohol directly into her frontal lobes. In. Doing this onis hope to destroy clusters of synapses. He felt that mental illness originated in these synapses and by removing or destroying white matter in this region of the brain, he could stop the problem at its source. The brain is made up of two different structures, gray matter and white matter in the gray matter. All of the functioning of the brain takes place everything from our movements. Our emotions are thinking our reasoning and judgment. The white matter of the brain, his a highway that carries information from the gray matter in the brain to the spinal cord and into the rest of the body. The function of the white matter was to protect the nerves within and by destroying the white matter, the nerves became exposed and became dysfunctional interestingly enough the patient recovered quickly from a physical standpoint and after two months, she was calmer and her anxiety and paranoia were significantly muted. Moonies reported that of the twenty patients who underwent the procedure severe mood swings thirty five percent experienced a complete relief of mental disturbance and another thirty five percent reported consistent benefits. Though moonies is procedure didn't help the last third of his patients. Freeman was excited to read about the other results. He immediately wrote Simonis opening up a chain of frequent communication that would continue for years. Freeman was enthralled by the Lakota me and he wanted to replicate Munoz's procedure in the United States. Normally. Doctors might consider more research and trials before attempting a new procedure. But Freeman sought to recommend the operation much sooner than the typical time line would allow. He only had one problem. Freeman, didn't have a license to perform. So he, approached James. Watt's. Neurosurgeon who been working with him in Washington. DC. Although neurologists neurosurgeon treat diagnose diseases of the nervous system neurologist aren't licensed to practice surgery. For example, a neurologist can check on task for and locate a brain tumor, but a neurosurgeon would have to be the one to remove it. Because of this freeman needed watts. If he wanted his apt experiments to be recognized within illegitimacy, he could still be in control instructing watts throughout the operation, but he needed a surgeon to make the actual incisions and move the instruments. Luckily for Freeman Watts was equally intrigued by Manila's work and agreed to help perform the first American economy. But in keeping with his reputation, freeman had an unconventional twist he wanted to add to the procedure. He told what's that? He was going to improve the procedure going further the moonies did. Rather than just remove cores from the frontal Lobe Freeman intended to manually sever the connecting nerve strands between the frontal lobes and the Fallas. Freeman and Watts decided this modified surgery wasn't going to be called licotta me anymore after all freeman might have used my nieces discovery as a foundation but this was his own technique. Freeman dubbed his procedure, the lobotomy as it essentially separated the frontal lobes. And on September fourth nineteen, thirty, six, Freeman and Watts performs the first lobotomy on a severely depressed woman named. Alice. Hammett. These early prefrontal lobotomies were invasive procedures. I two holes were drilled into the skull one on each side over the right and left frontal lobes. Then a Luca thome or a long thin shops like surgical instrument was pushed through the drill toll over the left lobe and into the brain. This effectively severed the connective tissue between the frontal lobes and the foulness modifying and sometimes erasing longstanding behavioral patterns with Prefrontal Lobotomy. The side effect of incontinence was not uncommon. The reason for this is that the neural pathways that control our bladder are situated in the very area that these structures were severed. In time after the inflammation from the procedure resolved patients would regain their continents. It's also important to keep in mind that this operation is inherently very dangerous and subject to possible catastrophic results. In some instances the bottom I subjects were left severely brain damaged with horrible mental and physical impairments would others were able to uphold a seemingly normal life with responsible employment. However most people fell somewhere in the middle in terms of results, experiencing some improvements in their original symptoms along with some sort of emotional or cognitive deficit. Freeman declared the procedure a success. The surgery had been completed in about an hour when Alice awoke from her anesthesia she was free from dark thoughts in the weeks off to it. In fact, she was free from most thoughts a told. The lobotomy had rented alice calm and quiet. But also erased. Her personality and emotion. She had her memories and most cognitive. But it was like Alice has self wasn't there anymore. As Freeman and watts performed dozens of Labonte means over the next few months. This result was common. There were varying degrees of. For patients that mental health conditions were often gone but so with the patients personalities. lobotomy patients became more childlike or simply emotional blank slates they will often incapable of complex thoughts and judgments. Moreover alleviation from symptoms with sometimes only temporary and the patients required second or third operations. But Freeman was unconcerned by these developments, his goal had been to eliminate mental health conditions and the lobotomy was doing this effectively and quickly his patients for alive, healthy and free from mood swings and to him. This was worth a bit of personality loss. Freeman was convinced that lobotomy was less barbaric than other treatments. So he surged ahead in the next step of his research. He and wants started doing the is on patients while they still awake. As Waltz cut through their brain tissue Freeman Austin to do simple mental tasks like count backward or recite presidents names or sing a song he monitored their actions and facial expressions to learn the results of different depths of cuts. Watts would cut brain tissue at two centimeters then four centimeters. Then, Freeman would have him move the Instrument Twenty degree angle and repeat the cuts. Since each slice was permanent, there was only so much freeman could observe with each individual procedure. So to learn more, he simply performed more lobotomies. With. Overwhelming numbers of mentally ill patients in the psychiatry wards of surrounding hospitals they was no shortage of opportunities for practice and since the notion of informed consent was not yet a reality patients may not have known exactly what they were getting into. Freeman and what's were essentially able to dig around the patients brains at their leisure. By the end of nineteen, forty, one freeman and watts had standardized the lobotomy making it faster and more efficient. In doing. So they made the procedures seemed like an easy noninvasive alternative to otherwise barbaric treatments. This new miracle technique dramatically increased freemen's reputation. With a little help. Freeman was very savvy in matters of public relations and he made sure that successful operations featured in newspapers and medical journals. He invited science reporters to sit in on pre frontal lobotomies to impress them. Off to seeing the change in one, the bottoming patient, a Saturday evening post reporter wrote that a world that wants seems the abode of misery cruelty and hate is now radiant with sunshine and kindness. FREEMEN's PR push was working. People were coming to him for his Miracle Cure and nothing proved how highly the public regarded him like his sixty six patient who was by far his most famous. And one of his most disastrous. In. November nineteen forty one the dynastic Kennedy family brought in twenty-three-year-old Rosemary the youngest sister of future President John F. Kennedy. She was suffering from violent outbursts and allege while behavior she had been kicked out of summer camps and run away from school above all her father Joseph was concerned that she would get pregnant and caused a scandal. The politically minded family was desperate for a quick safe and surreptitious procedure. And they found that, Dr Freeman was more than willing to provide one. twenty-three-year-old Rosemary Kennedy suffering from possible seizures mood swings. Upon seeing her doctor, Freeman diagnosed her with agitated depression, which was likely a correct interpretation given what we know about her symptoms. He immediately suggested a lobotomy tra- corrector behavior and quickly got to work. However, something went wrong during the procedure as Rosemary was left with the metal capacity of a toddler and the inability to speak. This was likely the result of a too deep or too long a cut into the brain tissue. A cut that goes to deep during one of these procedures cuts into the LIMBIC system. That's part of the that controls our emotions. Following the Operation Rosemary was institutionalized and she never regained her mental faculties nor the ability to speak coherently. Rosemary not only lost her personality. But she lost the ability to live independently. She became incontinent and wholly reliant on caregivers. Rosemary was institutionalized for the rest of her life. But the botched lobotomy didn't stop Freeman. It's possible. He believes that if there was a post operative problem, it was because of the patient, not the procedure. Of the nearly two hundred lobotomies, Freeman and watts performed by the end of nineteen, forty to a reported sixty, three percent had successfully eliminated many of the patients symptoms. Freeman likely belief rosemary was just one of the few patients who suffered severe cognitive loss in the weeks after their lobotomy. But he wasn't dwelling on those patients. His successful lobotomies were what mattered the outcome of Rosemary's case was a risk. Freeman was willing to take to achieve a cure for mental illness besides he and watts still had dozens of patients waiting for them to work their medical magic. But, as the public's recognition of lobotomy increased so did freemen's, frustration. He developed this procedure but couldn't perform it himself. Freeman wanted to find an easier method of entering the skull and severing the frontal lobes. If he discovered a non-surgical path into the brain, he could perform lobotomies and then train other neurologists to do them to his procedure could become the primary treatment for mental illness in the United States, it would be a legacy befitting, his family name and his career. So Freeman found a way to perform brain surgery that didn't require a surgeon. And he started in his own kitchen. Up Next Freeman finds an alarming new tool for his lobotomies now back to the story. By the early nineteen forties Dr Walter Freeman had become a polarizing figure in. Madison after leveraging his position as director of laboratories at Saint Elizabeth Psychiatric Hospital Freeman was now the chairman of the Neurology Department at George Washington University. He was an infamous member of the Faculty always dressed in adapter outfit and known for his dramatics. Especially during autopsies, he also ran a practice at the university with James Watt's where they conducted the majority of all lobotomies. FREEMEN's career was exactly what he had hoped. It would be full of fame and respect too much of the public. He was a hero secured cured the most difficult ailments the mysterious ones in the brain. But to other doctors, he was a reckless and underqualified professor masquerading as a neurosurgeon. When Freeman and watts presented early case findings on Lobotomy to a medical conference in Baltimore they were met with outrage. Freeman. Had announced the prefrontal Lobotomy as a revolutionary new cure for mental illness. But the other doctors had immediate questions. Some was so enraged that they shouted at him from the audience how day he tried this untested procedure on unwilling patients how could he possibly assure them? They wouldn't die on the operating table. Freeman. Calmed his contemporaries by assuring them that lobotomy was a last resort procedure. He claimed he was well aware that it would take years to properly study the long term effects of lobotomy. But Freeman, also knew that the criticism would likely never reach the public. At the time, it was rare for doctors to publicly criticize other doctors. No matter. The criticisms he faced Freeman wasn't concerned with winning over other doctors. He saw himself as one of the best among them. He was on the cutting edge of medicine and besides while some doctors may have doubted him, the public was in th- ruled by lobotomy. To the newspapers, his credibility was beyond Christian and Freeman. Knew it. So he focused his attention on the public opinion. And the public returned the favor. As world, war. Two drew to an end thousands of veterans were returning home with troubling behaviors and mental states many were puts into psychiatric hospitals that were woefully underfunded soon, the public turned its attention to mental illness in a way it never had before. Expose stories about the disgusting conditions in mental wards and the suffering events caused endless public outcry. Freeman had seen this before twenty years ago at Saint Elizabeth's he recalled the hopelessness he felt facing the overwhelming number of patients and their terrible circumstances. But now he had a secret weapon. The lobotomy. lobotomies had stopped suicidal thoughts, addictions, obsessions, behavioral impulses they had allowed patients to go home. The public yearn for a quick solution to overcrowded hospitals and Walter. Freeman, was ready to provide it. Contrary to what he had told the outrage his he imagined lobotomy could be the premier treatment for mental illness. The procedure would not only solidify his reputation in medicine, but put him in the history books. Freeman didn't appear to be overly concerned about the well being of his patients. He saw that America was suffering from a budgeting problem in psychiatry too many patients not enough wards. The lobotomy could solve the financial problems facing hospitals and give patients a chance to live a life outside of institutions. But to convince the widespread, American medical community to adopt lobotomy as the best treatment the procedure with need to be foster easier and cheaper. While it's a reality that price is something worth considering its secondary to good treatment outcomes Nevertheless affordable solutions are always preferable over expensive ones if proven effective and the managed care model is founded on this very principle of watching the piggy bank managed care is a healthcare system that's designed through algorithms to control costs with diagnostic and treatment. that. Ensure the most cost effective way of treating patients. If Freeman could somehow make his procedure less expensive. It would superficially be a more attractive and viable treatment option. Freeman saw an opportunity for his procedure to make medical history, but he still couldn't perform a lobotomy without wants. His Egos simply wouldn't allow him to be a kind of doctor who touted a cure did he couldn't provide himself since the university hospital wouldn't license Freeman to perform surgery Freeman said about circumventing the system just like he had at Yale. One of the most pressing issues separating surgery from other medical procedures was general anesthesia. Freeman however knew he could not count patients with a portable electroshock machine. In fact, he kept one in his office for occasional shock. Treatments. Now all he had to do was find a way to get into the brain without drilling through the skull with required a surgical order. In his research, he discovered an obscure technique first outlined by an Italian psychiatrist named a Mero fiamme betty. fiene Betty knew that the skull was extremely thin in the orbital cavity just above the ball. Using a long thin metal rod with the pointed end fee and Betty was able to break through the skull with a simple tap. Just, as he had with Menendez's work, Freeman decided to replicate the procedure. But added twist to make it his own. That night he went home and took a pair of ice picks from a draw in his family's kitchen. They were slender metal rods about eight inches long with shop metal points at one end and small handles at the other. Two freemen they were the perfect tool for the job. One morning when James Watt's arrived at the shed medical office at the university campus, he found Freeman standing over a patient on the operating table. The ice picks was stuck through both of the patients I sockets. Freeman had one thing. Right? The Izhak are the most efficient route to the brain. This is because they're the nearest natural point of entry to the frontal lobes and the eyeballs themselves have a natural give to them. In other words, eyeballs, and their surrounding tissues are very elastic meaning. They can be stretched and move to an extent without causing real damage. As such, it would be easy to slip an icepick past the eyeball allowing for unhindered penetration into the socket. Remember, he wanted a more cost effective way to do this, and also as a non surgeon, he had the ability to do this procedure on his own. He didn't have to open the skull. He didn't have to drill a bone into the skull. He could just enter the frontal lobes through the Izhak and it was the same tissue that was destroyed. While Freeman found the ICEPICK technique to be convenient and effective. It was utterly alarming to a train neuro surgeon like watts. Watts couldn't believe what he was seeing. But Freeman gave him a smile and casually said, Jim, can you come here and hold the picks while they take a photo? Watts was alarmed freemen's callous lack of care in the procedure he was performing it in outpatient office, which was hardly a sterile environment. Freeman seemed unfazed by watts criticism. It didn't need an operating room. He was being safe since the ice picks touched the eyeball he used different ones for each side. In fact, this patient was fine and would be heading home in our Freeman claimed the procedure was as safe as any simple injection. Without saying a word, what's walked out? After that morning the two no longer sheds an office. But Freeman didn't care. He was just getting started. He didn't need what's with this new trends lobito technique. He could perform a lobotomy by himself in just a few minutes. A patient could come in off to lunch and be home by supper. Freeman you the thousands of patients waiting for him in crowded hospitals across the country. Thanks to the extensive newspaper coverage, he had inspired the public was already familiar with the lobotomy. Since Freeman was its most popular champion. He was certain. This new improve version would be celebrated and happily welcomed everywhere. So he packed up his ice picks and did what any celebrity does he went on a national tour. Next time on medical murders. Dr Walter Freeman surges ahead with his alleged Miracle Cure despite knowing the dia results his patients, personalities and emotional capability. Freeman performs thousands of lobotomies across the United States and invites his own downfall as his patients begin to die on the operating table. Thanks for listening to medical murders and thanks again to Dr. Kipah joining me today. Allaster thank you very much. For more information on Walter Freeman among the many sources we used, we found the Journal of neurosurgery, Article Psycho, surgery ethics, and media, a history of Alta Freeman and the lobotomy as well as the PBS documentary the Labonte. Extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of medical murders and all other power cast originals for free on spotify not only spotify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like medical murders for free from your phone desktop or small speaker. District Medical Motors zones falsify just open the APP and type medical murders in the such PA we'll see you next time Medical murders was created by Max Cutler and his apopka studios original. Produced, by Max, cutler sound designed by Trench Williamson with production assistance by Kali, Mountain Kristen Vado. Jonathan Cohen Jonathan, ratliff, and Aaron Larson. This episode of Medical Murders was written by Andrew Messer with writing assistance by Maggie Admire and stars David Kipa and our standard.

twenty-eight-year-old Freeman Freeman Watts Freeman lobotomy FREEMEN Yale University Freeman United States Freeman Austin Alta Freeman Saint Elizabeth Psychiatric Ho Prefrontal Lobotomy Medical Murders Angeline Ionescu James Watt Saint Elizabeth Ellen spotify director Rosemary Kennedy Washington
Part One: The Bastard Who Invented The Lobotomy

Behind the Bastards

1:01:04 hr | 1 year ago

Part One: The Bastard Who Invented The Lobotomy

"Coming soon on Barrena Banjo blockbuster musical podcast from iheartradio Jingle punks legendary country artists ZAC brown discovers long lost recordings of Berna Banjo in it creates a generation spanning collaboration with the mysterious duo in a musical mash up for the ages. Every week you can find a new song from the bear and a Banjo Soundtrack. Featuring songs heard the podcast available on your favorite music platform listen to the barren banjo. podcast on the iheartradio APP on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. What's not a morning person? Might I'm Robert Evans hosted behind the bastards. Show where we talk about the worst people in history and I introduce as the show badly Today we have an unusual morning recording an ungodly hour. What is it sophie? Eleven thirty nine. Yeah I I feel like I'm the first person who's ever been awake this early aside from my guest today. Of course Mr Daniel Van Kirk. Hello thanks for having me back. Hey Doing Daniel. I'm great man. I'm wonderful I daniel go help no no. I've been up for two hours so I feel. That's very impressive do you do you like mornings. I do not but I've recently found out that I am able to get so many more things things done the earlier. I get up which would seem to be very simple math but nothing that I personally made any efforts to experience until recently my life so oh I I would say on average nowadays. I'm up around before eight. Maybe sometimes six thirty but I am not a morning person. Listen I hate sunrises. sunsets would say six thirty. That's the middle of the night. If you'd one bit is when I went to bed last night it is thereabouts maybe five thirty. We'll I appreciate you making this effort. Then my sleep schedule stole fucked up from the flight right sure now Daniel. We've we've established that you're sort of ambivalent towards mornings leaning towards not liking them Heavy Phillip the brains and you feel about your brain. I feel pretty good about it Do yet it's hold up pretty well memories still very good and I haven't having gotten to the point where I have to have a counter I would say I use it for about fifty percent of my stuff. I should be using it for a lot more but mine held up so far I think well I I think most people like their brain except for the moments when they hate them And I think that probably the listeners of the show is statistically have spent spent like Arrow the about fifty percent of their waking hours not liking their brain because this is the show for depressed people who like to hear about terrible things As the general rule that's our that's our demo. Isn't it Sophie. I hope that's screwed up fucked up shit so yeah me too. Maybe I'm describing the author of the show and it's it's It's primary cast more than the listeners. I hope the listeners are happy but I'm making an assumption here. You're here for that. As of a two thousand seventeen study by the Journal of Psychiatric Services. More than eight million Americans suffer suffered from severe psychological distress now. This is a blanket term for quote feelings of sadness worthlessness restlessness that are hazardous enough to impair physical wellbeing. So being that sounds pretty familiar to me. and that number doesn't include all the American struggling with bipolar disorder. Schizophrenia psychosis depression and a whole galaxy the of other brain-based thing jigs to deal with and to some extent it's always been this way. Huge chunks of people always had brains that don't let them comfortably interface with mainstream society. Now we're not great at helping people with mental illnesses in two thousand nineteen but a few decades ago were much worse at it and today we're GonNa talk about the man who was perhaps the very very worst of all at it. So the do the name. Walter Jackson Freeman the second. I do now He invented lobotomies. And that's who we're talking about today the just the like well we'll just remove it. He up what is just. We'll just scrabble it up a little bit too much. We'll remove it. Oh you had an unwanted pregnancy will remove it and not just the pregnancy part. No actually we will keep the pregnancy but will scramble that brain up. Yeah Yeah I've heard I'm sure we'll touch on some of them but I've just heard horror stories of like well. We had a sister and then she just wouldn't stop. Stop arguing with her parents so she went away. She liked boys. Yeah we stuck a needle number eight. What time it was was yeah okay bunker down for this? Yeah registered their dog if you need to pay her okay great awesome. Is She a registered lobotomy Sophie. Because I feel like there's a lot of money in that no but we'll look into it. We'll look into it. Walter Jackson Freeman. The second was born on November fourteenth eighteen ninety five in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. His Father Walter. The I was also a doctor but not a very good one. He hated the work and he did it. Only grudgingly He was like a a an ear nose and throat doctor and it was said that his ideal world would have been one in which people didn't have have years noses their throats so he wouldn't have to work well his son that one next level then just remove that you don't want to deal with. I'm yeah that's what I'm GonNa do now. Walter Jackson the seconds Grandfather Keen Freeman even was one of the most celebrated physicians of his age and was like the first doctor who did a bunch of important things. He's a legitimate like trail-blazing medical motherfucker so Walter Freeman. The second was a sick child which was not unusual in an era where the average fistfight came better prognosis than the average surgery. He developed enlarged lymph nodes when he was fourteen months old which is grandfather had to cut out. The surgery worked but it permanently paralyzed some of the muscles in Walter's shoulder and head Walter the second also underwent tonsilectomy and suffered from diphtheria scarlet fever the measles whooping cough the mumps and pink guy. I don't WanNa say that God definitely wanted this baby dead but I think the evidence speaks for itself. Yeah they tried yeah he he. He did his best young walters. First memory was of the head of the pickaxe breaking through the wall of his nursery as the result of a home volition that got a little sloppy which is a pretty pretty bad ass first. Memory you gotta give it. Oh Yeah for sure. Also also Not Too often analogy of what he would later due to people's own life and not too far off from a great scene in the shining which starred star. Jack Nicholson who is also in one flew over the cookies movie about a lobotomy. ooh that was a good not. We've had a lot of things together the Now the wonderful biography of Walter. The LABATA missed notes that he also nursed a lifelong fear of horses but never knew why that doesn't come up again. I just think it's interesting. People are terrified of something for no reason. Yeah and they can't let I'm also afraid of horses okay. Well that's not what we're talking about today all right. Well you need to put that in. You need that needs to go in the book right. Are you scared of anything On like an existential level that that makes no sense to you. Well that's but if you're scared of it doesn't make sense to you so not always I don't know I I'm I'm very afraid of prison. Okay that makes total sense. Yeah yeah it makes sense to me but it is like when I just think about not being able to get out of somewhere somewhere that to you like they're like Oh we DECI- I don. I don't like it bothers me. That shows sixty. Have you watched that no. That sounds like a fucking king nightmare though. It's like They embed civilians into like a prison system. The only knows no not an actual prisoner is the warden. And then the camera crew sets up as though they're doing a documentary in the prison but they use that to their confessional talking head moment so the interview a lot of prisoners listeners. But none of them assume we'll one of us is actually supposed to be here and their jobs last sixty days and quite a few of them end up just getting beaten up. Yeah that makes sense. I was bad at his cover story of what he was supposed to be in there for. So once you start lying to other prisoners they assume you must be a pedophile. And that's why you're like no pun intended Cagey about what you got and therefore and that didn't end well for that guy either wants everybody was like. Oh you're a pedophile. He's like no no no no no and then they don't care about that that's what they think. So you get beat up. Is there a cash price. I don't know if there is any cash price I I'm trying to think like you would have to be. I would only do it for enough money that I would be able to buy a cabin in the woods. Like you would have to give me cabin in the woods money in order to like do that fucking thing but that sounds like it would have to be nice woods with so so you for like three fifty you know three hundred five five five hundred is going to be the low end of that Shit. I'm talking a nice cabin. See One time I went when I toured Alcatraz they let us go into the solitary confinement. And they're they anybody WANNA check it out and I thought you know what lean on your fear so I went in an and the guys shut the door. They're like vinyl. What you call probably a park ranger at this point because of what Alcatraz and then the tour guide? Whatever Edna then? He pretended that the door was stuck and he couldn't get me out and I did not enjoy those few moments. That felt like very long hours. See I I would. I would live in Alcatraz if it could just be my house and I had a sack of rifles an Internet connection. That would be fun. I take potshots at Silicon Valley that that would be satisfied. I would podcast To your while go back to you Robert on the rock. It's another episode. Okay which probably it back the PODCASTS. We were talking. Scared of horses Now when Walter was a small child child his family moved to an area near Rittenhouse Square. A once fancy but now slumming neighborhood And this is again in Philadelphia now Freeman would later recall it as a rather other dingy place. Where nursemaid's wheeled baby carriages and gossiped? Walter's family was quite well off and he came up with maids and cooks nannies to attend to his and his parents every every whim he was not overly adventurous as a child later wrote of himself on the whole. I think I was a sensitive imaginative boy. Docile shut in a bit and full of questions and his parents nicknamed him little. Walter Y Y and the growing boy was particularly intrigued by the family business medicine. He had a good relationship with his grandfather. But it almost no real friends. The only boy he played with regularly was his younger cousin. Morris the book the lobotomize describes their friendship is basically identical to Calvin and hob strip rip Walter Norris nurse mutual contempt for girls and made grand plans for the Society for the prevention of useless girls. Bugs for short disdaining the company of other children they set up another exclusive secret society just two members strong which they called the Walrus Club. Yeah that's like a fucking cabinet hob strip one hundred percent. Yeah and they got a Trans Mortga fire. Wasn't that one of the things times. Yeah so did I. It's kind of a bummer. If you imagine this is what happened to Calvin when he grew. Yeah well. I'm not doing that. No don't do that anymore. Hobbs I could see Hobbes getting into this line of work but definitely not scrambling braids. Now Walter was a good student. He excelled in Latin and Greek and he won prizes for his scholastic. He was never any good at sports. Nor did he grow any more adept with the opposite sex as he blossomed into a teenager teenager. He found girls bothersome and later wrote. I think I actively disliked girls until I went to college. This is all going to make so much sense later. This is all going to. It makes so much sense immediately. Okay Walter Freeman was the oldest of six siblings all but two of whom were boys. He did not get along well with them nor did he particularly care for his parents. Walter would later note repeatedly that he never loved his mother. He was only a little closer to his father who took him and his brothers on regular hiking fishing and camping trips. The elder Walter hated his medical practice and considered the outdoors. His only refuge. He was a weird dude once when Walter. The second was caught skipping school. His father punished him by whipping himself in front of the truant officer. Wait Whoa Yeah Yeah. The Dad whipped himself or he had. Yeah Walter the second. No he whipped. The Dad whipped himself in front of the truant officer myself by skipping school. Yeah he did it in front of the COP like that's that's so fucked up it takes like you really have to process that shit. Yeah because you're fucking up the kids head you're like I'm the officer. Imagine that guy. Exactly well buddy. I just want kids to go to school. Why are we doing this? You GotTa do is sign the sheep man. Sign the sheet that I told you he wasn't at school pushes it down. Why did you bring a whip to this meeting you? You don't need to do this. No one's asking you to do this sir. I just wanted to know I'm also going to have to write you. You up for riot or whipping yourself. Because I have to document that I witnessed this He. He's he missed a day of school. This isn't really a whipping situation and I'm wondering what you meant when you like. Cool bring my whip. Yeah I have trouble getting my head around. What kind of man does that I know? And I'm sure the truant officer was like wanted the kid to leave and then just like will ferrell and eastbound and down. The Dad was like let the boy watch. Oh that's I feel horrific. That's a mind fuck. Yeah that's a galaxy level mind. Fuck Oh boy. I bet that truant officer felt bad for the future. He was like you know what you need to step skipping school. But we're not going to tell your daily everyone everyone's going through that again. I am not doing that again so as probably not a surprise surprised. Hearing that Walter's father was no less awkward when it came to talking to his young adult son about sex years later Walter called I had been showing interest in the external anatomy of my young girl cousins with the aid of his ancient text. Books on Anatomy and gynecology illustrated with wood cuts dilated upon internal anatomy reproduction and especially venereal disease threatening to follow your or even tempted by operatives who would report to him. I was thoroughly uncomfortable but remained a virgin. He never alluded to it again. If you're a young parent out there looking to stop your kid from fucking too early this is one way to keep them a virgin for a very long time yet or watcher racer had but or watcher racer head. Yeah but it's okay. So he he got his he said straight up. I was really into my female. Cousins Sends Anatomy yes. Yeah Yeah Yeah he you know. That's that's fucked up in an earlier age in which boys and girls did not socialize is like you run into stories like that a lot in the early nineteen hundreds just because like you weren't hanging out with any other girls so like that's when people would have that really. It's it's messed up an a symptom of some unhealthy things in the culture. But I'm not gonNA say that that right there is evidence. That Walter was weird from the beginning. Maybe they were the only girls he spent any time around. And Yeah so when you say at the enemy to me. It's like he makes me feel like I guess I intoned that he's more preoccupied like it's okay to wonder what's under their clothes but don't Start wondering what's under their skin. I think that was just sort of A euphemism they use because again. Nobody had good vocabulary to talk about like bodies back then because everyone was fucked up and you know it was an even less healthy time. There was no real summer or mid Western boy autumn which is currently a part of. Oh yeah that's yeah. Mid Western boy. Autumn is good southeastern boy late summer slash early fall which really doesn't get going until November I like slutty people April showers. That's my favorite. The time of year sled people April showers. There has to be a porn star. Name April showers right. Of course. Oh yeah no thanks thirty yeah percent okay. I hope so. We're putting in the universe if there isn't that also called Dibs. If any of US get into porn I mean we're that's GONNA be the sequel podcast to this one over Robert Evans makes a porno It is not going to be popular Back to Walter Freeman so Walter graduated from high school when he was just sixteen years old. He immediately started attending classes at Yale. He was academically excellent but completely miserable. He was too young and immature to get up to any kind of animal house. Type Bonding Shenanigans. With his fellow young men and his utter disdain aimed for women made most kinds of socialization. IMPOSSIBLE IT turns out. It's not great to be in college at age. Sixteen not not the best time to do that He briefly worked for the Yale Daily News but was let go after he spilled a bunch of alphabetized subscriber cards in front of his editor. He joined the swim team at one point but refused to practice when anyone was around he didn't didn't want people to see him with his shirt off So He's you'd get a feel for the kind of young man. Walter Freeman was not a comfortable one. No Now in fairness knowing about his dad how could he possibly have been his. Initial degree. Program was engineering nearing but this track was disrupted at the end of his junior year. When he ate a bad batch of raw clams and caught typhoid fever he spent months laid up with this in an assortment of other ailments that took up the entirety of his first semester senior year at Yale the long Muncie spent at hospitals in sickbeds helped Walter realized that he wanted something different out of life a career in medicine? Now he'd initially not wanted to go down that road due largely to the fact that his father had told him it was a terrible life. Don't be a fucking doctor as he whips himself right so this isn't about you. I'm whipping myself because someone else left a muffin out on the counter. This is their whipping but I needed to talk to you. Also he's third-generation soon. His Dad probably was forced into it by his dad. Yeah and so he. Maybe maybe this was his one thing where he was trying to be like. You don't do what you don't you don't have to do this. And it didn't matter I feel like he's saying you don't have to do this while everybody. Everybody looks at him whipping himself. And it's like you really don't have to do that so Walter. Seeing his dad was a miserable. Double fucked up person Walter. Instead look towards his grandfather As a role model and enrolled in summer classes at the University of Chicago to catch up on medical school before or to catch up on like medicine and science related classes before starting medical school the next year he excelled in this as well and attempted to rebuild his health by walking thirty minutes to and from campus every day carrying a heavy box of bones where you can just get bones back then yeah. He decided he needed. He wanted to like get healthy and the way to do it was to carry around a lot of bones and because he's a fucked up person. Iraq isn't good enough. There were more bones than rocks back then. There were just people die in left and right so h h Holmes as place and pick ups. Yeah wait what year is this. That doesn't check out. Actually I might check out late late. Eighteen Ninety S. I don't remember exactly when h H Holmes was eighteen. Ninety two no he would have been he would have been. He was born in ninety five. So okay there would have been there would have been a lot of bones lying around. In the early nineteen hundreds bone heavy period world war one was on a lot of bones shitloads odes about now yeah so he excelled in his classes and he was getting better. You know healthier. Thanks to his bone box but in spite of all this he got sick again very quickly and was soon in bedridden he later recalled. I wrote home saying I guess God didn't want me to study medicine. In reply I received a stern admonition not to think that way much less us to mention it wherever he got sick again. Yeah he kept. He was very sick he was a sick sick young man. Oh man this is. You're right. Mother Nature was trying trying to kill him. God was definitely trying to stop him from me. He's a fighter. You gotTA use a fighter. He he is a persistent son of a bitch. He shouldn't then let it go Ben. Somebody should've walked in whipping themselves. been this is so that you can let it go. Just go yeah. That's I think that we have to land on the conclusion that if only there'd been more whipping in his childhood he would have turned out better. Can I ask you a foreshadowing question that I'd had don't expect like you to answer yet because I don't know that we should even if you can but okay much like we all wonder. Like what purpose does mosquitoes provide like what So what did they give us in the long run or whatever other than just bad stuff I would love to know by the end of this episode. Already hate him. If you're at some point you're going to be like we'll actually because of the lobotomy. We now have this positive thing in our world and I'm anxious to see if any if that comes about at all yes he was actually. This is getting ahead a little bit do that to you. I'm already in my head. I hope there's some benefit to this. Fuck the spoiler. I'll give you is that it turned out. He was right right for the wrong reasons or at least he was right but it led him to do the wrong thing. So like the Bronx Tale. I've not seen Oh uh-huh he covers for. He covers for a mob guy and he asked his Dad Robert. Deniro he goes I did. I did a good thing right that he goes. Yeah you did. You did a good thing for a bad man like it. It's the right thing but you did it for the wrong person. Yeah well it's a little different than that. Oh we'll get we'll get there okay. So after a second tonsilectomy freemen's freemen's health improved in soon. He was off to medical school. During the first hand bones in hand during the first World War was drafted into the army medical corps and he became a serjeant well. He continued his education. He was demoted once for threatening his company. Commander with the shoe but otherwise had a solid service. We're not we can't skip this machine it with a shoe shoe fight. You've had a couple. I've never had a shoe fight. We we all have the odds shoe fight. I can Tina Turner. That's the most popular chef if I of all time. Yeah it was just like a an argument and he picked up his shoe and yelled at somebody and didn't realize he they were his commanding officer. it's less interesting than you'd think it's Funnier when you just summarize it that way through now Walter graduated as a doctor in nineteen twenty the second in his class by this point he becomes so enamored with medicine that every other aspect of his past had followed by the wayside medicine he wrote held my interest to the point where excluded many other things. In fact I was barely early aware of my family. Do not recall what they were doing or where they were during this period. So Walter has fallen fully in the medicine and speaking of falling fully into something. Daniel van Kirk. Yeah it's time for us in our audience to fall fully into the products and services that support this program. Yeah let's do it. Let's let's whip ourselves in front of the audience to convince them to buy these. These products that Support the show. Imagine me wailing on myself with a cat of nine tails. It makes me sad. But I didn't come to school and so now you have to hurt yourself and now now I after hurt myself books different daffy ability Jason Food to start watching now subscription required. We're back so when we left off. Walter Freeman had fallen in love with medicine and had forgotten what his family was even doing. He was so enthralled with his new career and in his father's case what he was doing was dying of liver cancer now. Yeah Yeah. Yeah Walter Could not really have cared less about this. The only thing he did to help his father during this period because he was living at home still was periodically. Shave him with a straight razor. He refused to soften his dad's stubble in warm water before shaving him because quote. The task was distasteful and I finished it as quickly as possible. I'm sure my mother would have been more gentle but she considered shaving a man's job and I was the only one at home so I I'm GonNa I'll shave you dad but I'm not gonNA like make it pleasant for you because I want to get done with this shit. Quick Great Great Great Kid now although his dad was kind of fucked up so fair I guess you whip me. I can't do it myself. I kick it shave without a whipping as a medical intern. Walter was somewhat uneven. He excelled neurology but proved less apt at handling what he he called. SCUTT work like transport urine samples for analysis. Sometimes he would samples down the drain just to be rid of them. He was fascinated by neurosurgery but to board of the details of it to actually learn to perform surgery. He was fascinated by illness. But almost bored by the actual human beings he had to treat he was ensured. Very strange dude. As this passage from the lobotomize makes clear soon. Another patient commanded freemen's curiosity a young man who arrived at the hospital with his penis in dire shape inflamed aimed at dark. The organ was encircled by a ring. That the patient's girlfriend had thrust over it but was unable to remove way remained ended yet. We're talking like nineteen twenties. Cock rings brings. I think we're talking a normal ring that she put on his cock and it became a problem when he got hard. No yeah that's why you use the like the bendy rubber for one. Yeah not normal metal ring. That's one of our sponsors today but yes Zion Son's old fashioned Amish Cock rings only only Cock rings that are made entirely out of wood. If you want the most pain Cochrane can put you in you WanNa Joe and sons Cochran. That was too perfect now in redwood so a guy walks in and says hey I got I got a you know that that conversation was awkward because much like you talked about. No one was using good healthy like jargon for each other to talk about themselves. Anyone uses the word word penis in that entire conversation. Take Twenty minutes. He's like I've gone problematic in my never. So the freemen ended the patients agony by filing through the ring and twisting it free with forceps. The boy asked for the ring but I told him it was a specimen and that I would have to keep it Freeman wrote. I had the ring repaired and the freemen man crest in grave on it for years afterward. Freeman war the specimen on a goat shave if we were in an episode so of mine hunters. This is what we would call a trophy. Yeah that's fucked yet a conversation starter. Though I liked it. Oh you do tell you a little Dick that crest aftermarket because this used to be a broken broken Rink Calcio. Well gentlemen came in had it in his nevers. I took it off and now I proudly present it a Man Wow yeah real. Quick think about this. There's a chance unless he was buried with it. That ring is out there somewhere. Got God I hope. So if you have Walter Freeman's conquering necklace. I would pay good money to have. It made what I would do with it. We'll we'll find a use for it if you could start collecting things from your episodes and you'd be like the collector in guardians of the Gal in the Marvel universe. They're like Oh that's actually from the episode where we talk about because that ring is gotta be. I bet somebody doesn't even know what they have on. TV show. That would be that would be. The premise is me hunting down artifacts of terrible people. We'll start with like an original copy of of one of Hitler's favorite fantasy novels. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Saddam Hussein's typewriter. You know all the all the all the great all the hits Laurent Hubbard's. I don't know a boat or like that. I step aside what we talked about the Nazis in Hollywood like even an old like lend lease like movie Carlo. Hell Yeah Yeah. Yeah The city of Pittsburgh Man. There's a lot of things to collect. Okay sorry I have derailed bust but yeah I mean how could I not we just went. We know requiring tail. Yeah so Walter. Spent a year in Europe doing medical residences in France and performing medical testing on animals. The highlight of his trip was watching the autopsy of an elephant. He was fascinated by the four hour task of opening the creatures skull to remove its brain. Walter I thought was that a jackhammer would have been the ideal tool to remove it the this thought process spawned a lifelong fascination finding unique ways to break into skulls and access brains. He is into that. Hey now do what you love. You'll never the money will follow. His first. Major job came courtesy of his grandfather keen who uses connections to get his grandson a Gig as the senior medical coll- officer in charge of Saint Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington DC. This was a psychiatric hospital in working. There gave Walter Direct look into the horrific ways nineteen twenties America treated treated the mentally unwell. Saint Elizabeth was essentially a giant box filled warehouse from the end of Raiders of the lost ark but filled with sick people instead of antiquities. There were very very few real treatments for psychiatric disorders. So patients were just locked in there together until they either died or light well enough to claim that they had had a spontaneous remission. That was that was healthcare back. Then you head sick or we're going to put you in a miserable box until you decide. You're healthy yeah yeah Walter Walter. Freeman found this new charge horrifying. He was sickened by the forty three hundred inmates of his asylum. And he wrote the slouching figures of the vacant stare or averted is the shabby clothing and footwear. The general tidiness all aroused rejection rather than sympathy our interest so he's eased horrified and not sympathetic with these people. Yeah other now. It doesn't feel bad for him at all. Yeah yeah they're they're just He's just disgusted by them now. Since the inmates of this asylum were too pitiful to deserve walter sympathy he instead focused on learning about the brain of the psychotic is he called it. which is again was like the general? It's a specific term. Now which is the general term for anyone and that was like not fitting in society. You couldn't conform. Yeah Walters goal was less to alleviate discomfort and more to help these people return to life as productive members of capitalist capitalist society quote. I looked around me at the hundreds of patients and thought what a waste of Manpower and woman power so again not particularly sympathetic to their suffering. Nobody inclusiveness he is very gender inclusive. Yeah yeah towards this end. He experimented with differing oxygen levels in their impacts on the brain of manic people he also also pioneered a new easier method of collecting spinal taps from the LABATA missed instead of recruiting help to secure patients in deep bend while sitting than inserting the needle of a collection syringe inch between the Vertebra Freeman employed. He was fond of calling the Jiffy. Spinal tap without assistance from other staff members. Freeman directed patience to sit backward on the chair and deeply been their neck over the chair back carefully navigating the opening at the base of the skull he then pushed a needle into a reservoir of spinal fluid located just inside but perilously close to the base of the brain even a slight error in the insertion of the needle could permanently injure the patient visa. Show Walt. He's just showing off and this. This risk was worth because it allowed him to work alone without at close collaboration with colleagues now immaturity. Walter was still very much a loner and he preferred his own professional company to acting as part of a team. Even that went into greater risk to the patient. Walter opened a private practice while working at Saint Elizabeth's to further his research and also took a job as a professor of neurology at George Washington University by the Early Nineteen Thirties. He had a well earned reputation as a psychiatric pioneer. Now Walter was largely responsible for the introduction of several exciting new treatments insulin. Insulin shock therapy which plunged patients into insulin shock to try and correct schizophrenic symptoms. He also experimented with Metropol Shock. Therapy and electroconvulsive therapy. The essential goal of all these treatments was the same to slap sick people out of their issues by horribly traumatizing their system. Wow so he's that kind of doctor he's it's like all these people have a problem. We just need a fuck up enough that they See the only they get their shit together. The only time I know of something like this working is in heatstroke. 'cause you instantly need to be put into a nice tub right away like we need to shock you out of the thing urine but the idea that we could take anything. Psychologically and essentially it's MAC you out of it to one form of mild torture or another is yeah insane. Who did this ever work enough that somebody was like? I think this is the way to do it. You know So one there's a couple of things going on here. One of them is that electroconvulsive therapy is still in a very very small-scale us today. There are certain people with certain fairly rare problems that it can help. So I'm sure there were some people who had very severe psychiatric distress who were helped by the electroconvulsive therapy a tiny fraction of the total right. And I'm sure there was a larger number who were while they had issues where are also able to realize like. Oh my God. They're gonNA keep torturing me if I don't pretend to be better and so they would just like okay. I'll be better. I won't I won't let you know I'm suffering that kind of like the mouse in the maze. Oh I just gotTa stop this it so that. That doesn't happen to me anymore. Yeah you're learning through like not your learning running through just like Pavlovian dog type shit of like yes. This happens to you every time so you just learned like stop being loud but nothing's changed. Yes that's kind of. I think what goes on with a lot of these people. It's a mix of the tiny amount who legitimately do benefit from it because electroconvulsive therapy can be helpful and a larger larger number. who were like? Oh this is awful. Just stop complaining. It's I don't want to go through this anymore right now. It was nineteen thirty thirty-five when Walter Freeman. I ran into the treatment that would come to define his practice and the great bulk of his adult life that year. He attended a presentation in London by a researcher who had experimented with damaging the frontal lobes of chimpanzees. Just to see what happened. There is also were more or less what you'd expect. These brain damage chimps became quiet listless inactive Jeff Freeman and a Portuguese. Neurologist Egos Mooney is we're both fascinated by this Mona's right away headed back home to Portugal to experiment with severing the frontal lobes of human beings. The thinking was that if this procedure could calm chimpanzees down it might have the same effect on people suffering from a mental illness that led to radical swings personality and mood mood stuff like a bipolar disorder seizure disorders and stuff a whole bunch of different things because again a lot of stuff that we now recognize her separate things. We're all lumped together back in that day So if you were like a schizophrenic or if you had a seizure disorder or if you were bipolar they might just say lump. All those people together is the same thing you you know. They weren't great at this yet. in one thousand nine hundred eighty six Antonia Mona's had perfected his treatment the Lou Kadhamy which involved drilling two small holes in the side of the head. Ed in order to sever connective tissue that attach the frontal lobe to the rest of the brain now at the time there were two main theories of psychiatric illness. The first which was pushed bye guys like Freud was that psychiatric ailments were all basically the result of buried memories misplaced desires past. Traumas things that you could sit down and work out with a psychotherapist over small mountain of cocaine and on a comfortable couch. The other theory was that these illnesses were caused by emotional signals from the brain that were so strong they simply overwhelmed a person I know. Obviously neither theory is entirely right but the theory that Guys like Freeman would adopt. which was that it was a bunch of signals from the brain was closer to right than Freud's theory because it explained stuff like you know Seizure disorders like schizophrenia. And stuff which are not. You can't talk doc. Therapy someone with schizophrenia. Out of having issues like it's a problem with like signals their brain ascending. They need some sorts of medication. I think sometimes surgery helps but like so freeman is on the right track would he and other scientists who adopt this school of thought are realizing is that. You can't talk your way through all of your mental. The problems which is correct. There are mental problems that have to be dealt with on like more of a chemical physical level. So that's what I say. When he he was he was right about sort of what? The issues were But then we get into what he decided. The treatment should be which was not correct but he was on the right track when he like like figure it out like what was going on with people it where he was closer to right than a lot of mainstream doctors. So Munoz's lucado seemed to provide relief to a number of patients and I should note that there are variants of this procedure. Reused today patients suffering from some type of seizure. Disorders sometimes have parts of the brain disconnected from one another to stop or reduce the frequency of said seizures. We still do use brain surgery. That's kind of an evolution of the Lucado to treat people today and it can be very helpful to again a very small small number of people who suffer with these disorders Someone is was experimenting with Real Medicine and he was very responsible with the implications of his treatment when he received the Nobel Prize for it in nineteen forty nine. He insisted the Lou Kadhamy was only to be used as a treatment of last resort. When absolutely nothing else could provide a patient with relief? So Mona's not gonNA say is a bad guy. He's one of the early experimenters with what would come to be known as a lobotomy. But he's he's doing it because number one he recognizes. It does help in some cases and he's he's very clear about like we only do this if there's no other chance of them living a normal life right or if we WANNA fuck with a chimpanzee that was the other guy. Oh sorry. Yeah yeah yeah yeah mode is just watch that and was like Oh shit this bell right now Walter. Freeman paid attention to the work of Antonio is but he was not convinced the Lucado me ought to be a last resort for suffering people as the manager of an asylum. He was deeply frustrated. By how much time and manpower it took to subdue patients dealing with psychotic episodes schizophrenic breaks manic antic faces etc.. The idea that all this could be calmed by just chopping up. Their brains was deeply appealing to him. Yeah Start Yeah. Yeah that'll that'll make it wet. My jobs one hundred people. I'm sick of why are we. What if I am? So Freeman developed a modification of Mona's procedure and renamed it a lobotomy. In much the same way as orioles modified the hydroxy cookie and like Orios freemen's procedure was destined to capture the vast majority leave the market share for such a product. Like oreos. You gotta get to that middle good stuff and get that out you get you get to get that out now. I'm going to quote now from Jack. L. High who wrote the lobotomy. The bottom est and also wrote this piece for the Washington Post to him the intoxicating thing about psycho surgery. Motors's coin term for psychiatric surgery was its potential. To sever the links between the overexcited emotions unhealthy phthalates and the behavioral functions of the prefrontal Lobes of the brain if it worked the destruction of these nerve fibers would prevent the thelma's from poisoning patients thinking. He absorbed details among his work and with neurosurgeon. Watts became figuring out how to adapt the Portuguese physicians techniques Freeman and watts used used brains from the hospital morgue to practice the coloring of sections of the prefrontal lobes with Luca thome which is the device. They used for that for the summer of Nineteen thirty six. They were ready for a life patient. Patient I miss Hammett from Topeka Kansas now ms Hem. It was sixty three years old. She suffered from depression. She had frequent. Hysterical fits and Difficulty Sleeping Freeman talked with her concluded that a lobotomy was the only way for her to avoid spending the rest of her life in a mental hospital. Much of the impetus behind this seems to have been in her husband who was tired of dealing with a wife who needed help herself rather than just preparing meals for him in staying. Quiet Freeman is new partner. Watts scheduled Miss Hammett for for an appointment on September fourteenth. Nineteen thirty six now. The first lobotomy did not start off. Well Miss Hammett tried to back out. When she learned the procedure would require? We're here to shave her head. Many of her mental health issues focused around an obsession with her thinning hair. So this was obviously a matter of grave concern for her. whoa yeah we're doing the one thing? She's already upset about. Oh Yeah Yeah. So Freeman and watts shirt here. They would only have to shave off a few small sections of her scalp. This was ally obviously once. They'd forcibly anesthetized terry shaved. Her Bald Freeman recorded. That her last words before going underwear. Who is that man? What does he want here? What is he going to do to me? Tell him to go away. Oh I don't want to see him. You know well that's how crazy people talk so sit still. I don't think that. Oh Yeah. That's him yeah. She's very reasonable. He percents point once been labeled. We're going to do this to you. Remember what you say. They're like well. You would talk like that. You're crazy you need hurry. Loonie loon with freemen watching. Watts drilled six holes top Miss Hammett skull and inserted a Lucado device that essentially hold the brain into each hole. Both both doctors work together. Unleashing the brain with watts the actual surgeon managing the whole affair and is odd as it sounds. The lobotomy seems to have helped Miss Hammett. At least she and her husband in both reported that it helped Freeman wrote in his autobiography. She survived five years according to Mr Hamid the happiest years of her life as she expressed it she could go to the theater and really enjoyed. Enjoy the play without thinking of what her back hair looked like or whether her shoes pinched and it is entirely possible that this is an accurate representation of how Miss Hammett felt many of Dr Dr Friedman's lobotomy patients experienced relief from some of their symptoms. That said even the positive experiences with lobotomies are clouded by deeply disturbing questions of consent and structures of oppression. Speaking of sorry. Sorry they're saying it actually worked. Yes she she experienced relief. That was not wildly uncommon with his patience. Yeah but if she's worried about shoes and stuff it's Kinda sounds to me like and I know we're near professional and so please take this with a grain of salt anyone. Here's my voice that maybe she suffered some some sort of like. OCD too worried about Yep And so the lobotomy. Just made or not really care about anything. So they're like oh things are better. Well Yup Yup no you just don't care about anything that's not. I guess I guess you're not doing the thing you did. But I don't know if that falls into category of better but but for them at the time they were saying the time. This woman was complaining. Now the woman's not complaining we fixed her. Okay well. It's a different. Yeah we'RE GONNA get into that a little bit more more and how problematic all this was but again it's important. You know that at the time this looked to again uh the men who were the only ones. His opinions mattered in the situation. As if they were making being people like Mrs Hamid. Better catch Now you know what will make you better. Daniel van curtain the products and services. Mrs Advertise on the show Yeah can we go to learn about him. Oh you can. Here's a capitalism lobotomy. Hey Yo I'm Julie and I'm Brenda were the hosts of insider's guide to their side. You may be wondering what EXAC- qualifies us to guide you around the other side while you did. Write a book about ghosts and spirits. I think that qualifies you but you brand. You're the best kind of guide You know a guy to someone who is an expert that usually is indigenous to that area the others like your homeland you know since birth. I think that we're both qualified to take our listeners. I I spend every week into the spiritual round where we definitely promise it will be a ride. A ride follow psychic communication humor and lots of stories and other woo Hoo Stephan the things. We hope that will make you laugh so hard. Up Little but mostly find peace. No need to join US every Wednesday for a new fancy commands. EP WORTHY EPISODE OF INSIDER's guide to the other side iheartradio is number one for podcasts. But don't take our word for it. Listen to insiders guide to the other side on the iheartradio APP apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. We're back now As I said before we rolled out the positive experiences with lobotomies that you read about when you can read about these early Operations nations were all clouded by very disturbing questions of consent and also structures of oppression that existed back then and still exist. Today during my research came across Story core interview with one of Walter Freeman's patients Patricia Mohan and her husband Patricia. With our horizons name is Glenn by the Way Patricia was lobotomize in nineteen sixty two. And I'm I'm going to read the transcript of this husband and wife talking about her procedure and again. This is considered to be one of the stories of like success. But I'll read this to you and you tell only if you think there's something fucked up going on. I Will Win Mohan my name is Glenn Moen I am seventy nine years old. I signed the release for pets. lobotomy Patricia Mohan. We have not talked about it since I had lobotomy. I don't think ever my husband is not a great communicator Glenn. I don't talk to her anymore than I have to Patricia. Glenn Be Nice. Both laugh we'd been married about thirteen years and it just started. I cried all the time I was just mentally. No Good Glenn. One Night I came home and she said well I've done it now. She taken a whole bottle of some kind of pills Patricia Tricia. That's when the doctor decided it was time Gwen. He told me this was the last resort. I didn't know what else to do. Patricia Dr Freeman said. You can come out of this vegetable or you can come out dead and I guess I was miserable enough that I didn't care Glenn I was kind of worried because of the operation of severing a nerve in the brain. It sounded kind of wild to me Patricia. He was afraid he was going to lose his Cook Hook. Glen and I don't like to Cook Patricia. I remember nothing after I saw Dr Freeman. I don't remember going to the hospital or having it done or how long I was there. That's all gone Glenn. We we're coming back from San Jose after the operation patent foreign me that you couldn't wait to get home. Because she wanted to file for Divorce Patricia I don't remember that at all. I don't think I said it Glenn. I think I just went on driving and ignored. The situation began to wonder myself. How much good this operation accomplish? Really I can see no changes in most areas except she is much easier to get along with Patricia. You didn't see any change in the way kept the house or the way I glen No Patricia I was more a free person after it had it not so concerned about things I just went home and started started. Living I guess is the best way I can say I was able to get back to taking care of things in cooking and shopping and that kind of thing Glenn delighted at the way it's turned out. It's been a good life. Wow yeah that's there's a lot going on there. My favorite I hope on Glenn Tombstone who knows definitely dead by now it says I ignored it and kept driving. I ignored it and kept driving a lot of his life with her until he had to deal with her ass because she wouldn't do the things she was supposed to and kept Gallian about wanting more pills she wasn't happy cooking and shopping so he drove a hole in brain and then it was fine. I'm also GONNA claim ignorance here. My friend I was under the assumption before. We started this that. If you've got a lobotomy. You're just a shell of a person that you were a vegetable or you who died when like That happened a lot but but some people just kind of win and do like. I don't know if you four the right word but a like just a laws affair they are feeling towards laughter. Lobotomy like they still were very cognitive. They didn't really have any argument. Nerves left yet. It separating the frontal lobe in the way that they did kind of separates you from your concerns in some ways stopped people from feeling or thinking as much. You're agreeable. Yeah that was kind of the best case. Scenario with some of these people Some data detached too much or the go-to DNS. When you get catatonic yeah? We'll get into that. I mean it's it wasn't an exact science good at it. I just blew me away here that exchange because I've been sitting here the whole time thinking every lobotomy ends with just a feeling of like no no never gone up a lot of your show. A lot of these people went on to live. Productive lives a lot the were rendered. Catatonic it kind of depended on how the operation like the thing is. Brains are weird. I've known people who have been shot through the head with rifles and fine definitely not yeah rifle in the studio then. Yeah well I mean. They wound up. Fine we can just It's just it's kind of a crapshoot with brains. It's it's wild the amount of things that they can go through And suffer noticeable effects in its wild. The number of things that can happen to them that seemed minor. Injuries changed the person forever. Like it's a fucking crap shoot. Yeah look at you look at the NFL. Exactly now. Mrs Hammett's Lobotomy. Bottom and nineteen thirty six proved to be the beginning of a decades long career carving into the brains of human beings. He and watts were one of medicine's. Most dynamic duo following that operation. The established an office office at home in Washington. DC gradually refining their technique. Replacing Mona's Luca thome with an object Jackal high describes as resembling a butter knife. They also switched around the the positioning of the holes from which they cut into the brain. When patients symptoms persisted Watson Freeman would perform multiple lobotomies and make deeper cuts into the brain one patient a lawyer suffering from alcoholism? Alcoholism escaped the hospital after his operation and was found drunken downtown bar. One patient showed up after his surgery and threatened to murder the doctors to polled guns when Freeman recommended commended they undergo lobotomies so it was not always smooth process from early on Freeman viewed proper pr as critical to gaining widespread adoption for his new technique. He and watt started setting up a lobotomy booth at the annual AMA convention in Nineteen. Thirty nine crafting display is designed to draw the attention of journalists rather than impressing other doctors. He later wrote. I found the technique of getting noticed in the papers. It was to arrive a day or two ahead of the opening of the Convention and install the exhibit and the most graphic manner and then be alert for prowling newsmen. Now now Jack. L. High notes that Freeman used hand-held clapper's to get the attention of reporters with loud noises. He and Watson lobotomize the monkey in nineteen thirty nine. This spectacular prevent dominated coverage of the Convention Freeman wrote that night. Our monkey died but Watson I made the headlines even though we did not get an award so so begins ends. All press is good press. I mean that's going for here. That's what he's going for it. Well the monkey died but people seem to be interested. Fifty five percent of the for six hundred twenty three surgeries Watson Freeman carried out had what they described as good results Thirty two percent were fair are in thirteen. percent were poor. Three percent died During or immediately after the surgery. And if you take freemen's word for it. Those are good results. More than half of people had like like a good result of the operation a particularly considering these tended to be patients who had exhausted conventional treatment options however Freeman never went into detail about what he considered to be a good result not update his results when patients relapsed which was extremely common but remember nurses with the result of that monkey dying so he was he was. Ah Yeah Yeah now. Nurses reported that patients of the duo often needed to relearn how to eat in handle other basic tasks they soiled themselves flirted bizarrely with orderlies and would sit staring off into the distance for hours on end. Walter Freeman considered these positive changes the fact that lobotomy patients were dull. Quiet uncoordinated cordinated lazy was. He felt an improvement over manic episodes and excessive activity. Many officials at mental hospitals. Felt the same way Freeman. Watts patients were much easier to deal with on a long-term longterm basis since many of them just sat around quietly by nineteen forty-five Walter. It started to experiment with new methods of lobotomy. He was frustrated by the fact that the procedure required a skilled neurosurgeon. That meant he could only perform the operation. When Watts was around which dramatically limited the number of people he could properly lobotomize? This was a problem because he'd come to believe that lobotomies bottomed worked best for patients in the early stages of their illness. If people waited too long he feared the lobotomy. Might Not really help. So he's like we gotta get into this shit faster. This needs to be like the first thing we're doing reserve. I you feel in down today. Sit In this chair in shave your head. I'll be right there now. Walter started looking into the research of other doctors. He found an Italian surgeon named Amaro. fiamme Bertie Armato had developed a new procedure for reaching the brain without drilling careful holes in the skull instead our mono broke into the school through soft bone at the rear of the eye socket working on corpses Freeman developed a method of accessing the frontal lobe of the brain through the eye socket using using an icepick from his kitchen. Working in secret so watson to find out Freeman Freeman started performing Solo lobotomies in January of nineteen forty six. He operated out of the office he and watch shared during hours when he knew his partner would not be in the building. Freeman is picked nine human brains in short order sending his patients home in a taxi cab next according to the Washington Post Freeman later wrote the during his tenth Hint Trans Orbital Surgery. He called Watts to his office to assess the operation Watts later claimed however that he entered Freeman's office on summoned found Freeman pushing an ice pick in the eye socket of an five. Just Man Freeman. Audaciously asked Watts to hold. The ICE. Picks of freemen could take a photograph. Whichever account is true no one disputes? The result of this encounter watts threatened to break rakoff their partnership if Freeman persisted in performing lobotomies himself and treating them as office procedures done without surgical gloves or style. Draping for the remainder of his association with Watts. Freeman made these operations outside the office. So that's cool now Watson Freeman would later fall out professionally over the issue of Trans Orbital lobotomies. Although Watts retained a deep respect for his partner he couldn't get over his belief that brain surgery ought to only be carried out by a competent brain surgeon. Not Random guys with an icepick so is reversal crazy. Stance and Friedman was like. You are far out there. Have you seen this. ICEPICK children should be able to fix is cars. And non brain surgeon should be able to put ice picks through people's is I believe that. Yeah me now. A book the two men authored on the subject of lobotomies includes this this paragraph the authors regret to announce that they have been unable to reach an agreement on the subject of Trans Orbital. Lobotomy Freeman believes that he is proved the method to be simple quick effective and safe to entrust us to the psychiatrist. What's believes that any procedure involving cutting of the brain tissue is a major operation and should remain in the hands of a neurological search? And this is a relationship with someone somebody and you're like I don't even know why we're fighting about this. Why would have been fighting about this? I've just I've just ice pick and some motherfuckers my. Why are you angry right? We shouldn't even be having this fight. Yeah Oh that's crazy. This book psycho surgery in the treatment of mental disorders and intractable. Pain made an enormous splash in the world of medicine when it was first published in nineteen fifty the thome featured language not often used in works of medicine like the term scrawny frayed. Cats used to refer to a group of patients this lurid pros along with the Gauche marketing technique used by Freeman to attract the press alienated many mainstream medical professionals but the book was popular and cemented Freeman and status as a radical physician working on the cutting or perhaps poking edge of medical science on the eve of his fifty. Second Birthday he wrote. I have a feeling of competence and assurance that is almost grandiose maybe it comes from superb health and maybe from the fruition of dreams that have proved within my grasp but anyhow I'm sitting on top of the world so that's it happy. Yeah he's what do you want it or next episode. We're going to talk about the second phase of Walter Freeman's career. We're also going to discuss the most famous patient he and watts ever operated. Did on the poster victim of Lobotomy and sister to President John F Kennedy Rosemary Kennedy. But right now Daniel van Kirk. It's time for you to plug. Awesome Plug ables I WANNA let everybody know. I have my first comedy album coming out. It's on It's on Blonde Madison That's the label and it will drop on November remember fifteenth Friday November thirteenth called. Thanks Diane I recorded in Los Angeles at the UC be theater and If this is before the fifteenth when you're hearing s you can go to Daniel van Kirk Dot Com and pre-order or just go to the I tunes store APP on your phone specifically the I tuned store up and you'll be able to preorder therre but on eleven fifteen eighteen or any time thereafter. You can get anywhere that you get your music or listen to such things. I should say music but it feels like it's also for comedy But it's called. Thanks thanks Diane and go to Daniel Van Kirk for all of my tour dates as well as my own park as pen pals dumb people town. And I'm Robert Evans And you can find me here on the podcast asked. You're currently listening to so. Please keep listening to this podcast You can find our sources on behind the BASTARDS DOT com. You can find us on twitter. Instagram at bastards. Podcast when you find me on twitter at I right okay You can also find a lobotomy. If you show up at my door and pay me forty five dollars I have an ice vic cannot be doing. These brain surgeons need to do these. I feel like anyone can do these mayhem and ICEPICK.

Walter Jackson Freeman lobotomy Robert Evans Freeman officer Walter Mr Daniel Van Kirk Philadelphia Walter Jackson Walter I Jack Nicholson Walter Norris LABATA Journal of Psychiatric Service Patricia Dr Freeman sophie Pennsylvania bipolar disorder Apple Schizophrenia
Revisiting the Archive: Episode 11: Larry Kramer

Making Gay History

22:32 min | 6 months ago

Revisiting the Archive: Episode 11: Larry Kramer

"I'm Eric Marcus. And this is making a history. It's now eleven weeks since my partner Barney and I began sheltering in place and this past week the official death toll in the United States from covid nineteen rose past one hundred thousand mothers and fathers children grandparents colleagues neighbors and friends people not numbers people. I've talked before in this series revisiting the archive about anger. How it can fuel action? How an anger is partnered with love? It can produce a kind of righteous rage that propels us those of us who lived through the AIDS crisis. Know about it. Some of US learned it from Larry Kramer who died this week in Manhattan where he's lived for. Decades Larry was famous for being one of the first billions to sound the alarm during that last epidemic. The one that began forty years ago he was on the front lines even before aids was called AIDS and became a global epidemic at swept away more than thirty million lives before AIDS. Larry was best known for his work as a screenwriter and author but the virus that was claiming so many lives in the political indifference political negligence that greeted it turned Larry into a very public activist. His friends were dying and he felt compelled to do something more than to just bury the dead and mourn their loss in nineteen. Eighty-two Larry co-founded a gay men's health crisis now known as GM five years later he co-founded act up the AIDS coalition to unleash power. Act Up came to be known for its brilliant use of public protests to bring attention to the epidemic by early nineteen eighty nine. When I I met Larry AIDS take in more than sixty thousand lives. Most of them. Gay Men Larry quickly earned a reputation as an uncompromising firebrand with a fierce temper. I'm not proud of it. But that kind of person generally inspires me to run in the other direction. I was more than a little anxious. I approached the door to Larry's apartment in a building that fronts Washington Square Park in New York. City's Greenwich Village. As I said when this episode originally aired I got myself worked up. Nothing I brace myself for a tornado and found the teddy bear. Here's the same. Larry welcomed me into a spacious apartment and showed me into his all white book line living room and I took a seat opposite him across a broad desk as I said at my tape recorder and attach the Mike to his shirt. We talked about how we both had wanted to find a husband early in life and settle down and that led us back in time to Larry's memories as it confused and Unhappy College student in the Early Nineteen fifties. I pressed record interview with Larry Kramer Thursday January twenty six thousand nine hundred eighty nine at the home of Larry Kramer in New York City. Interviewer is Eric. Marcus tape one side one. When I went to Yale I thought I was the only gay person in the world and tried to kill myself because I was so lonely. Did try to What am I think that was fifty? Three was the year my freshman year. Yeah is awful. I mean I do want to go back that far curious because I was a college student on seventy six desperately unhappy. We're at Vassar College. There were there were a lot of gays. They weren't that many people think there were a lot if there were so many gays. Why was I so unhappy? Miserable person and And deaths seemed very appealing at moments during my freshman year when I was dating a woman in making off the man by in life and fifty three must have been much more difficult than seventy six at Vassar. You can even start in shifty. Three Easter I knew I was gay. I think from the day I was born and I think that there have been I. I now know that there were isolate. They were experiences all through before. I even got to Yale. And they were all covert in guilt. Inducing on on everybody's part so the it seemed as if all those early years were spent trying to deny these feelings the feelings would sort of get to strong erupt in and I would have an experience. Which would autumn always make me feel guilty in one way or another and then you put it you become. Sylvia's would come down for a while a week a week or two and Yale was awful. There was a gay bar called parolees. It was awful the time when I finally have the courage to go there. It was only two blocks from campus. But it was a million years away. It was very dark and grey and inside and smokey and and filled with old old older man and I only went the once and somebody picked me up. A car drove for like hours before we found a place that was quiet to do it and then he drove me back where you didn't say a word all of that list of yourself. I eight two hundred aspirin. Oh my God talk about slow and Miss. You must have been pretty miserable to swallow two hundred and yours anymore. Will after you wanted out. Was that who knows. It's a scene. I'll never forget the scene of taking pills the Yup and find you're still better. I didn't wake up. I I went to bed and I got scared and I call. The campus. Police came took me to the hospital and put myself and that was in woke then I fell asleep and I woke up in a room with bars and after grace new haven hospital and there. Was this very unpleasant hospital psychiatrist. Who said all right Mr Cramer? Why did you do it and I go fuck yourself or words to that end he said? I'm now you're not going to be let out of this hospital until you tell us why you did it. And I just had a few rubbed me the wrong way and I wouldn't have told who who knew why I did it anyway. So my brother who's always sort of looked after me came and got me out and he was friends with the dean of Freshmen. My brother had been the before me and And it was you know ordinarily when something like that happen you were shipped off to go join the army really in those days. Yeah and then you come back to Yale and you've grown up but they let me stay. If I went to the University of Coyote. Just his name was Dr Fry Clement Fry. And he was about in the sixties he had silver hair and it was a good looking man he whereas reptiles button down shirt and You just knew that. He cared more about Yale and he ever did about you and And I told him of this experience that I had had of had been invited to go to the room of two of my freshman year. Two guys freshman year that I had met they somehow mercifully had found each other and they were living in this room and I was invited for tea or something and I walked into this room and the room. You know how awful freshman rooms are. Well they had done their room and it was painted all black and there was a everything has been taken out of the room. Except you know a low mattress was which was black and there was a perfect coffee table with with a rose in a vase. That was spotlit in a board. And and Mabel Mercer's playing on the phonograph right so I describe this little Dr Fry in Dr Fries. Reaction was I. Don't I wouldn't see those guys anymore factory and that's what Gail was like that's going to so there wasn't there wasn't a local gay student group you to call it was. I mean I love going back to Yale now and this is my real yardstick of of how far we've come even though. I'm always yelling about how we've not come far enough. I go back to Yale and Yale is like the college now and there's the dance every year for well over a thousand gay men and women in in you know across the campus from where I tried to kill myself because I thought I was the only one so that is your yardstick for change. It certainly is. Yeah that thirty years time you were completely alone thirty years. It is. God doesn't long time. So where does that leave us? A lot of change no change well. I guess it's in. It's in my nature to be impatient and I only got politically involved because of AIDS and there is no question that we have lost the war to AIDS and that we've lost and we'll continue to lose a great many people when we did not have to lose and that the speed of research treatment education you name. It has been tragically in an inhumanely. Slow it's an epidemic that need not have happened and that we should have listened There's no question that that enough people knew what was happening. Should've list we'll specifically. You should listen well the community. I mean the gay press the gay leaders. You were there before. It was an epidemic or just as it was becoming. Well I think now we know that even when we found out eighty one it was much bigger than we thought but we thought it was just the beginning right. Eighty one in this very room in August. Eighty one eighty men sat with Dr Freeman keen from Nyu who told us in no uncertain terms exactly what was happening and and he was right at eighty one in. August of eighty one. The New York Times article that alerted. Everybody really was July third eighty one. The New York Times headline was freer. Cancer Semen forty-one homosexuals and said that all the guys had the same history which was a history of of having had all of these sexual diseases. Amoeba was hepatitis A. and B. and mononucleosis syphilis gonorrhea n-name it. When I saw that in the New York Times I was scared. Because I'd had all of that and I guess the penny dropped the English say or the bell rang or something I call Larry. Massu was was it is my friend. Who's a doctor? And who had written some articles? He wrote a health column for the native and had written about it before the Times had and And I guess I've spoken to Him peripherally about it but not it had. The Bell Hasn't Rung Until The Times. That's the way of making you really stood up and say wow of times covers. It has to be real so he said go talked. Alvin to Dr Freeman keen which I did and Alvin who turned out to be gay and we turned out to have mutual friends. Said this is what's happening. You GotTa Stop Fucking. You're someone well known in the Gay Community. You have to do something about it. Somebody's got to go out there and tell them and it was because of that that I invited Larry Math and I and two other guys. Now dead Donald Been Paul. Rapoport invited everyone. We knew to come to this. First Meeting in August include people from from political groups capable? He got on the phone and we call everybody we called. Anyone could think of political people rich people media people doctors none them showed up and It was a good cross section and It was a lot of people didn't believe him. Did you know this was a hot political football when you picked it up or did you expect people to respond to you or to what you have to say that very meeting that night with without the early evening with Alvin so that I mean there are a lot of very nasty questions put him? There are a lot of people saying you know you're a born again How can you make all of these assumptions on the basis of so few cases? And how can you expect to hope community to stop talking and you know there was no virus? Then people say there's no virus now but it certainly wasn't a virus then that didn't come for another couple of years people could say you have no evidence to base this on and anyone say even if there's the slightest possibility well that's what he was saying and that's what I was saying and It wasn't so much the people that Paul Popham and Nathan Fain who came to be my big adversaries and Gamons health crisis. It wasn't so much that they didn't believe or not believe what was happening. Paul had of course lost a couple friends by them and the lover it was that he didn't think it was Jimmy sees or anybody's position to tell anybody else how to live their lives and that people had to make up their own lines so a lot of valuable time was lost. Not BEING THE CONDUIT. I thought I was setting up or funny to help. Set up with others an organization that was going to do one thing and that organization became and still is another. What was what was set up to spread information and to fight to fight to make the system accountable and to spread the word of what was happening and that you know we got a cool it. It was not that at all it was. It became very quickly. It was taken over by the social workers and and then it is now what it is then. It's a social service in a very good social service organization but it again. That's our tragedy. It's an organization that that helps people to die and is not an organization that helps the living go on living and we still don't have an organization to do that is that maybe act up. Bush came along much too late Beverly for never but much too late. I BLAME MYSELF. I I am very cognizant of of a great failure on my part that I did not have the ability to be leader that I did not have the ability to deal with my adversaries and still be friends. God didn't there is a God. Did Not give the gay community leader when the gay community needed a leader and you feel awesome and you failed in that role and I failed in that role. I feel very strongly failed role. What does the future hold? Then I think age is going to get much much much worse than a lot. More people are going to die and I. I hope that one of these drugs is going to do something about it but I never seem to hear of any let up in the number of people who seem to be getting sick and that's very scary and I'm HIV positive. Myself which I've just discovered and Protested the first time for the first time. Yeah I you know for the first time. It's it's come home to me in an even more personal way. That my days maybe numbered in a way that. I didn't think of before and that's made me real bad more than angry. I find myself going back to act up which I haven't done in a long time because I got fed up with Must be renewed personal personal interest. Give their fighting. Takes me out of my negatively? Makes me makes me just sort of being touched by their positive. Ism helps me a lot of things I haven't asked you. Is there anything that would like to comment on? So I don't feel like I've been at my best today with you so I'll come back feel a little specious than what specious feel a little scattered and what I've said so I don't know what I love being gay and if I have been an am critical it's only. I think we are very special people incapable of so much more and take a long time to be able to to say that for different generation than many. You know you're born what year thirty five and I'M THE GENERATION. That was sent off to shrinks because shrinks then thought they could change you and you were expected to change and it took a long time for me to come to terms with my homosexuality and a lot of shrinks now having come to terms with it and liking it and then having to face. Aids is almost like a Brat nevertheless. It's I think we are very lucky. I just I. I think being a gay man even today with AIDS is is is a wonderful thing. I love being gay after I turned off my tape recorder we talked about. Larry's health asides being HIV positive. Two-thirds of his liver had been destroyed by the hepatitis. B virus. His doctorate told him that he had maybe three years to live. So legacy was very much on Larry's mind. He told me that he saw his work as legacy. But if the risk of disagreeing with Larry Not that he's here to argue with me I think. His biggest legacy was saving lives to the activism. He inspired and his warnings about AIDS which were heard by more than a few of US including me a lot of us our lives to Larry Kramer. Larry outlived his doctor's prognosis by several decades. Experimental drugs a liver transplant in. Two thousand one saves his life. Larry also got his wish to find a husband settling down with David Webster in one thousand nine hundred ninety one they married on July twenty fourth two thousand thirteen. Larry Kramer died. This past. Wednesday may twenty seven twenty twenty. He was eighty four. Actually there's another memory of Larry I'd like to share before I go. I visited with Larry. One more time after that. Nineteen eighty-nine interview. It was at lunch the following summer with my mother in the Hamptons on eastern Long Island where Larry was renting a house. There were both in their fifties younger than I am now. I have no memory of how that came about or how my mother came to be a part of it. I'm guessing she asked and she was known to be insistent but what I remember clearly is how much they enjoyed. Each Other's company to Jews of a generation that spawned so many fighters for social justice mother included spoke the same language and I had the privilege to sit back and listen. How lucky was I? I don't believe in heaven but like to of the two of them meeting up for lunch again looking down on US wondering how we've made such a fucking mess of things and urging us to fight for our lives and the future of our country many thanks to the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation for their ongoing. If you'd like to join us in our mission to bring lgbtq history to life the voices of the people who lived. Please go to making gay history dot org slash support or visit our website at making a history dot com this revisiting the archive episode was produced by Sarah Birmingham making gay histories founding editor and producer and the tire making gay histories deputy director. Who handles all the post production work to get our episodes out to you so long? Stay safe until next time.

Larry Larry Kramer AIDS the Times Larry AIDS Yale Eric Marcus Vassar College Gay Community United States Manhattan Yale Dr Fry Clement Fry Larry Math US AIDS HIV Greenwich Village Dr Freeman
Lobotomies Pt. 2

Medical Mysteries

43:20 min | 2 months ago

Lobotomies Pt. 2

"This episode contains graphic descriptions of medical afflictions and treatments that some people may find disturbing. We advise caution for listeners under thirteen. The year was nineteen fifty in the town of Bethesda Maryland five police officers were called to a motel due to a guest causing a disturbance. When they arrived the aggressors brother David pleaded with the officers not to arrest him his brother didn't mean any harm. He had a mental health condition police were questioning the suspect when a man with a briefcase arrived at the scene. His name was Dr Walter Jackson Freeman the second and he'd help David's brother before Dr. Freeman. Asked David if he'd like him to treat his brother then in there, it would certainly be better than a trip downtown in handcuffs. David agreed and Freeman turned to the officers he asked for their help in restraining the patient. Freeman opened up his briefcase and took out an electroshock machine. He wrapped the electrodes around the patient's head and zapped him unconscious for next Freeman took a mallet and an ice pick shaped instrument from his bag. He placed the tool in the corner of the man's I and with one flick of the wrist hammered the pick into his patient's brain freeman gave the spike a hard twist. Then repeated the process in the other I David in the officers watched in shock as Freeman wiped a few drops of blood from the man's cheek. Then the doctor casually his tools he told David, not to worry about the cost of the procedure. Insurance would cover his brother's lobotomy. When our buddies fail, we trust doctors to diagnose the problem but medicine isn't always an exact science. Sometimes, it's a guessing game with life or death stakes. Is Medical, mysteries, podcast original I'm molly and I'm Richard. Every Tuesday will look at the strangest real-life medical cases in history and the experts who raced against the clock to solve them. As we follow these high intensity stories will explore medical research that might solve the puzzle. You can find episodes of medical mysteries and all other podcasts originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream medical mysteries for free on spotify, just open the APP and. Type medical mysteries in the search bar. This is our second episode on the rise and fall of lobotomy. A surgical treatment thought to cure mental health conditions. Last week, we discussed Godly Burkhart S- initial attempts at the procedure, and how Dr Antonio Egas Monese popularized the invention. Today we'll see how Dr Walter J Freeman the second carried on that legacy with his invention the ice pick lobotomy. We'll also investigate why the procedure remained popular even after more humane treatments emerged. We have all that and more coming up stay with. US. In nineteen, thirty, five, Portuguese neurologist Antonio Igus monetize introduced the prefrontal lobotomy to the world. This surgical procedure was believed to be a cure all for mental health conditions like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Mo- Niece's procedure even won him the Nobel Prize in medicine in nineteen forty, nine, Mo- niece believed he could treat these conditions by severing abnormal connections in two parts of the brain, the Ballas or the emotional center and the prefrontal Cortex, the seat of behavior speech and cognition hungry American neurologist named Walter Jackson Freeman. The second was one of my nieces earliest supporters in nineteen, thirty five he was head of the Neurology Department at George Washington University in Washington DC. Freeman was favored by his students for being a great showman. He understood the importance of keeping an audience engaged. He once said to a colleague. What the teacher had to say does not have to be important indeed did not even have to be true, but it had to be interesting. Freeman often used live patients to illustrate concepts rather than textbook diagrams preserved specimens. On one occasion, he demonstrated the infantile behavior of dementia patients by bottle feeding an elderly woman, his teaching style was so famously entertaining students brought dates to his lectures professionally freeman lived in the shadow of his grandfather Dr. William Williams keen junior doctor keen was the United States I brain surgeon in one of the first in the world to successfully remove a brain tumor freeman knew he had big shoes to fill but for the first part of his career, he toiled in near obscurity until he read Mo- niece's paper on the lobotomy in nineteen thirty six. Freeman was inspired to duplicate MO- Former success. The lobotomy was the uncharted frontier of American medicine. If. Freeman, could leave his mark on the field. Perhaps he created a legacy that rivaled his grandfather's first he needed a partner Freeman was a neurologist which meant he could diagnose and recommend treatments for the brain and nervous system but legally he was disallowed from performing surgery after his final patient died on the operating table he needed the help of a neurosurgeon to operate on patients and found that partner in Dr James W Watts. What's was remains polar opposite he was serious, and by the book he believed maintaining a sterile environment was crucial part of surgery. If a nurse dared to sneeze in the operating room, watts would immediately have them ejected freeman on the other hand scoffed rules and conformity. He skirted operating room regulations and was never worried about sterile technique. Nevertheless, watts was attracted to the idea of making history and he eagerly joined freemen's practice. In September of Nineteen, thirty six, the duo performed the United States is I ever lobotomy their patient was a sixty three year old woman named Alice Hammett. Alice came to Freeman with anxiety insomnia and depression. Another doctor may have committed her to an asylum, but to freeman and Watts Alice was the perfect candidate Alice agreed to the operation. But the night before she found out, she'd have to shave her head and revoked her consent Freeman wasn't about to lose his first patient over this. So he lied to Alice and assured her they would leave her hair intact. He felt her vanity was far less important than her mental health alice fell for freemen's white lie the following morning she was sedated shaved and taken into the operating room. Freeman began by instructing watts to drill burr holes into his skull. They used a Luca thome to slicer brain tissue and destroyed the connection between her prefrontal Cortex and her Salameh's then they stitched alice up and took her to recovery. When is woke? She was in great spirits or anxiety and depression had disappeared Freeman asked how she felt about her shaved head but even that didn't seem to bother her. Freeman, and watts knew they were onto something big as they grew more seasoned the do altered. My niece's methods in created their own. They called it the Freeman Watts procedure their technique moved the placement of Burr holes higher on the skull for better access to the brain. They also made additional cuts around the thallium ass- for those with more severe conditions. Freeman even designed his own Luca Tom his instrument resembled adult letter opener was a curved hook offering more precision unlike knees Freeman preferred to keep his patients awake during the procedure he would ask them to sing or prey. So he could monitor their condition as he worked. Then Freeman would instruct watch to cut into the Thelma's until patients were no. Longer able to speak once a patient stop talking Freeman considered their connections successfully severed during operations. Freeman would often ask patients questions, things that were ordered on the surreal on one occasion he asked to subject does your conscience hurt? She answered I don't know where it is. It was down by my heart, but I can't feel it at all. These conversations were a way to measure how severely the patients neural circuits had been damaged. Freeman called it a disorientation yardstick. It was also a way to predict how the lobotomy would affect a patient's intellect. Generally Freeman found that his patients retained their intellectual ability after their procedure. But other neurologists disagreed they used things like an Iq test to examine his patients after recovery. IQ tests showed that the lobotomy had a negative effect on their cognitive ability. Freeman was used to ignoring his detractors but he knew that public opinion mattered oftentimes he went directly to the press with his results before publishing in medical journals. Eventually, Freeman became a popular figure in the New York Times and even produced and starred in instructive videos on the Freeman Watts procedure. The duo became the most famous lobotomy. It's in America. Then, in nineteen forty, two freeman discovered an untapped resource of patients. American military veterans when World War Two came to a close the Department of veteran's affair was overwhelmed with men returning from battle many of whom suffered from mental health conditions. It was estimated that one point two million veterans were admitted to va hospitals with neurological conditions roughly double the amount of veterans who suffered physical injuries. Their most common affliction was post traumatic stress disorder or PTSD. PTSD is a neurological condition caused by stressful or traumatic events. During these experiences, the body releases various hormones and neurotransmitters to react to the situation. These chemicals are the body's way of improving reaction time heightening the senses and dulling pain sensitivity. But they also play a role in fear conditioning during periods of prolonged stress an individual's mind can get stuck in this fight or flight mode with their body maintaining at normally high levels of. Stress. Hormones. If. This last longer than a month, it's considered PTSD, the symptoms of PTSD fall into three categories, intrusive thoughts like flashbacks and nightmares hyper arousal, which includes impulsively insomnia and anger and deactivation meaning numbness avoidance and depression patients with PTSD typically exhibit one symptom from each of the three categories. The a hospitals all over the country were inspired by Freeman and watts. Success They started lobotomize ing veterans with Severe Ptsd symptoms. By nineteen, forty, nine, these infirmaries performed an average of forty eight procedures a month. The Department of Veterans Affairs even issued an endorsement making lobotomies even more legitimate. It seemed as though Freeman was going to rival his grandfather's legacy after all. Meanwhile Freeman was growing jealous of watches, his power to operate. He envied the prestige that came with neurosurgery and took great pride whenever a newspaper accidentally referred to him as a surgeon. Instead of correcting the misconception, he decided to embody it. One morning watts came down with a cold. There had been scheduled surgery for that day but instead of cancelling the procedure Freeman decided to perform it himself just as Freeman began slicing through the patient's skull, another surgeon walked in. Freeman calm the doctor down enough to finish his lobotomy, but the surgeon filed a complaint with the hospital director immediately afterwards, Freeman was reprimanded but without much consequence, he was simply told that if he wanted to operate, he'd have to apply for surgical privileges. By the nineteen forties, lobotomies faced larger logistical obstacles. The procedure which caused hundreds of dollars wasn't always covered by insurance and would be patients knew it was invasive and required weeks of recovery. But where others saw drawbacks, Freeman saw opportunity perhaps lobotomies would be more appealing if they weren't considered surgery at all freemen believed anyone could do the operation cheap and effectively and he was going to show them how. Up Next Freeman test his terrifying new methods on living subjects. Pay podcasters looking more lighthearted listen than I've got the perfect podcast for you. The new spotify original from podcast called incredible feats hosted by comedian and podcast or Dan. Cummins incredible feats is a daily show spotlighting true accounts of mind-blowing physical. Strength Mental, focus, and bizarre behavior. Join, Dan Weekdays, he goes behind the scenes and into the achievements of everyone from free divers and body modifiers to ultra marathoners and mom's incredible feats is offbeat entertainment that sometimes weird sometimes wonderful and always surprising search incredible feats and follow free on spotify over ever you get your podcasts. This episode of medical mysteries is brought to you by simply safe. If, you're looking for home protection, but don't want to go through the hassle of home installations, technicians, and two year contracts. You WANNA get simply safe. It was designed to be easy to use while protecting your whole home twenty, four seven. You can order online with just the click of a button. Once your box arrives placed the sensors, plug it in and boom your home is protected around the clock. I was very impressed with the package, the concept and the clarity of the instructions. The basic unit is attractive and UNOBTRUSIVE. Finding a security system was something that had been in the back of my mind and having their twenty four, seven professional monitoring and emergency dispatch started fifty cents. A day is a fair and honest price. Now, that I have simply safe. I feel a lot more protected. Head to simplisafe dot com slash medical and get a free hd camera that simplisafe dot com slash medical to make sure they know that our show sent you. Now back to the story. By. Nineteen forty five Dr Walter J Freeman, the second and his partner Dr James Watts had popularized lobotomy in the United States but Freeman believed there was a faster and cheaper way for patients to receive the same effects. One that didn't require a certified surgeon. Freeman searched for ways to reach Talmas without drilling into the skoll since the foulness is surrounded by delicate brain tissue, one wrong move could leave a patient. Permanently disabled possibly even kill them his research led him to the work of Italian Psychiatrist Amaro fiamme Bertie fiamme Bertie was the director of a psychiatric hospital in Barista Italy. He was also an early adopter of nieces procedure in one, thousand, nine, hundred, thirty, seven he made his own version of the lobotomy instead of accessing the brain through the skull fiamme Bertie punctured the bone of the Izhak it was a large needle. then. He injected alcohol between the prefrontal CORTEX and Thelma's vm. Bertie only performed one hundred procedures before the outbreak of World War Two. His trials were disrupted and his methods never left Italy until nineteen forty-five when Freeman. Got His hands on Fan Berties Research Freeman believed VM berties approach was the key to creating a cheap and effective lobotomy one that didn't require an operating room. But Freeman wouldn't inject alcohol into the brain as Mo niece discovered ten years ago. This technique destroyed too much tissue. Instead. Freeman search for a tool versatile enough to penetrate the bone of the is socket and cut tissue with precision. Freeman. Tested a variety of tools on cadavers. But most medical instruments like spinal puncture needles bent or broke during us. He was stumped until he rummaged through his kitchen drawers stumbling upon a you line brand ice pick the pick was strong enough to puncture the bone of the ice socket in slender enough to slice the brain's neural connections. It was the instrument that would define freemen's career Freeman called this procedure, the Trans Orbital Lobotomy, but it would be more commonly known as the ice pick lobotomy. In January nineteen, forty, six freeman used it on a live patient for the first time. Ellen Enescu was a twenty nine year old wife and mother who suffered from episodes of mania and depression. She had suicidal thoughts and was violent towards her husband and daughter Ellen's condition wasn't considered severe enough by other doctors to warrant a prefrontal lobotomy but her husband was desperate. They tried other treatments, but nothing proved effective. He approached Freeman for help. And Ellen just as eager to be cured agreed to the experimental procedure. Freeman didn't have an anesthesiologist to numb the pain. Instead. He had ellen lion the couch in restrained her limbs. He placed electrodes on her temples and shocked her twice to render her unconscious. Ben Freeman sterilized his ice pick and placed it the inner corner of Ellen's right I. He lined up the ice with her nose then. Topped with the Mallet. The point penetrated the thin bone of her eye-socket and entered Ellen's brain. With one quick twist of the pack Freeman severed. Allen's Thelma's from our prefrontal. CORTEX. The entire procedure took five minutes. When Ellen woke up, he was disoriented and had trouble walking. The ice pick left or is badly bruised but there were no stitches or bandages required Freeman followed up with Ellen a few weeks. Later she said her suicidal thoughts and violent outbursts were gone. and. She went on to lead a normal life raising her daughter and working in her husband's jewelry store not only was freemen's Trans Orbital lobotomy success. It costs a fraction of the time money and manpower of a prefrontal lobotomy. But Freeman couldn't tell anyone yet. He needed more proof of its efficacy over the next few months Freeman performed the procedure secretly in his office. On his tenth lobotomy Dr Watts caught him in the act. What's was horrified to find his partner hammering an icepick into a patient's is socket and he was furious that Freeman conducted such a delicate procedure without a surgeon nurse anesthesia watts threatened to quit their practice. The freemen didn't discontinue his work immediately freemen refused the fallout ended their tenure partnership with Watt swearing he would never allow a trans orbital lobotomy to be done at George Washington hospital again, that didn't prove to be the case over the years even watts found value in the Trans Orbital lobotomy. He performed the procedure twenty eight times himself during the nineteen. Fifties. Watts inevitably admitted that the procedure wasn't as dangerous as he believed working alone Freeman continued to refine trans orbital lobotomy over the next decade he no longer needed a surgeon to follow his instructions. In fact, anyone could be trained to perform an ICEPICK lobotomy just about anywhere. However, Trans Orbital lobotomies had unique set of problems. Sometimes, the tip of the ice pick would break off inside a patient's skull. It wasn't enough to cause significant damage, but it caused infections. Additional surgery was required to retrieve the broken pieces of metal. This undermine trans orbital lobotomy nonsurgical option additive. So in nineteen forty, eight Freeman designed a new instrument to replace the ICEPACK. He called it the orbit Oh classed the orbit class was shaped like an Icepick but longer with a handle on the end, it was more durable and it gave freemen more leverage. Freeman sold the idea of the orbital classed as a superior instrument. He claimed that with this tool, the Trans Orbital lobotomy was a milder treatment. It could be useful for a variety of conditions like mania and depression things that didn't warrant a surgical lobotomy before what the public didn't know was that the results of Trans Orbital lobotomies varied in many cases, it brought the same relief prefrontal lobotomy did namely, it dulled the symptoms of mental health conditions at the cost of the patients emotions people lost their ability to engage in social norms they overate overslept in Las self-motivation. But Freeman only focused on the fact that they no longer suffered their symptoms this this his barometer of success. Meanwhile many patients were attracted to the ease of the procedure. A Trans Orbital lobotomy was far less grueling than a prefrontal lobotomy instead of weeks in the hospital patients returned home that day freemen assured them. There was no shaved head only a black eye that would heal quickly. One thing he didn't advertise was the crudeness of the procedure it left some patients with seizure disorders. Some lost their lives on the operating table others died days or weeks later from internal bleeding. Still The promise of a cure far outweighed the risks. FREEMEN's method was significantly cheaper in one, thousand, nine, hundred, forty, nine, a Trans Orbital lobotomy cost twenty, five dollars equivalent to around three hundred dollars today. While a prefrontal lobotomy cost twelve times that around three hundred dollars or four thousand dollars today despite some of the benefits the Trans orbital bottoming drew criticism from many in the medical field. In nineteen, forty, seven, one of Freeman's peers Yale physiologist. John. Fulton wrote, what are these terrible things I hear about you doing lobotomies in your office with an ice pick when it use a shotgun, it would be quicker. These criticisms did nothing to discourage freemen's practice. He was performing the procedure everywhere. He made house calls went to jails. He even visited a roadside motel in Bethesda Maryland during a police standoff, and if freemen's lobotomy was a three ring circus, nearly everyone wanted to be part of the Shell. Freeman spent his summers touring state. Over the United States his goal was to train surgeons neurologists. And psychiatrists in the art of trance orbital lobotomy the hospital and asylum staff gathered around as Freeman demonstrated his lobotomy on real patients. Sometimes. He placed orbital class in both of patience is at once just to get a rise out of the audience. On one occasion, he performed a Carousel of twenty five lobotomies in a single afternoon his methods may have repulsed some but the majority of hospitals adopted Trans Orbital Lobotomy as common treatment by the nineteen fifties. Thirty percent of the psycho surgeries performed in the united. States were transacted lobotomies and that percentage grew every year. However across the Atlantic, a new movement in psychiatric treatment was taking shape one that would mean the end of the lobotomy and freemen's career. Coming up we'll examine the rise of psycho pharmaceuticals and the lobotomies fall from grace. Now back to the story. Dr Walter J freemen's ice pick lobotomy had become synonymous with mental health treatment in America. By the end of the nineteen forties, he had taken his show on the road offering the procedure at patients, homes, prisons, even motels. Meanwhile in France chemists had stumbled on a new drug with extraordinary properties. One that threatened freemen's entire legacy in one thousand, nine, hundred, fifty, one, Rhone Poulenc, a French pharmaceutical company was looking for new anesthetics to be used during surgery. A drug called chlorpromazine was the first to show promising results. However, a French Navy surgeon named honorine lowry noticed chlorpromazine had other facts he found that in low doses chlorpromazine also calmed and lowered a patient's body temperature up the time cooling the body was a common treatment for severe emotional distress asylum patients were sometimes restrained and submerged into tubs of is cold water for hours on end. When it was all over with the patient appeared more calm lob ary believed chlorpromazine could provide an easier and more humane way to achieve the same results. In nineteen, fifty, two laboratory tested his theory on patients in a Paris military hospital. His first subject was a twenty four year old patient named Jacques who suffered from psychotic episodes. When laboratory injected jock with chlorpromazine, it didn't just lower his body temperature it seemed to wipe away his psychosis entirely. chlorpromazine works as a neurotransmitter antagonised. Neuro transmitters are chemicals released from one Oron to another. In order to get there, they travel across things called synapses think of a synapse like a street between two office buildings neurotransmitters our cars driving from one location to another. The neuron receptors are the spaces in the parking lot. There are many types of neurotransmitters with unique functions like different types of vehicles have different uses. The chemical makeup of chlorpromazine is similar to a neurotransmitter called domain. So when someone takes chlorpromazine, it fills up the parking lot. The dopamine is supposed to take. This dampens or decreases communication between neurons. It's theorized that conditions like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are caused by too much dopamine being released by neurons. So chlorpromazine prevents the excess dopamine from finding receptors although the effects only lasted a few hours doctors believed a constant supply of chlorpromazine could allow patients like. To resume an ordinary life outside the asylum. The US the psychopharmacology industry was born. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, fifty, four, the FDA approved chlorpromazine for use in the United States under the name thorazine. It was marketed as a chemical lobotomy and provided all the benefits without the controversy. The drug was cheaper and more versatile than surgery and psychiatric facilities quickly adopted it. If side effects became too much for the patient, their dosage could be easily adjusted by the end of nineteen, fifty, four, two, million patients were prescribed chlorpromazine. Each day. Hospitals ordered more doses of anti psychotics and made fewer calls to lobotomize. It's like Walter J Freeman Freeman believed that psycho pharmaceuticals were a passing fad. thorazine had significant side effects such as restlessness, muscle, rigidity, and uncontrollable tremors. He felt it was only a matter of time before people return to psycho surgery unfortunately for him that day never came. Though. Freeman. Had built relationships with existing patients. He was unable to garner new clients opportunities dried up in Washington DC. So he tried his luck on the west coast in nineteen, fifty, four, he and his family moved to Los Altos California to start fresh desperate for new patients. FREEMEN's criteria for administering lobotomies became more flexible. One of the most famous patients was a twelve year old boy named Howard dully. Howard stepmother Lou approached Freeman asking for help with her defiant and ill behaved son. It's unclear what condition freeman diagnosed Howard with. But he advised the delays that a lobotomy would make their young boy more agreeable and in December of nineteen sixty Howard received a trans orbital lobotomy. Meanwhile public opinion of the lobotomy soured in Nineteen Fifty, eight Tennessee Williams play suddenly last summer debuted on. Broadway. It depicted the procedure as barbaric method targeting young patients. The Bell Jar and one flew over the CUCKOO's nest both published in nineteen sixty two also portrayed lobotomy as stripping away one's vitality and independent thought the tides had changed. Even physicians wondered why anyone would recommend a lobotomy when thorazine was so effective still there were a few patients who remained loyal to Freeman entrusted his methods. In fact, the lobotomies greatest asset may have been freemen's. Personality his wit personality and intelligence one, his patience trust. He maintained relationships with some of them decades in nineteen sixty one freeman was giving a lecture on the lobotomy in San Francisco when the crowd grew hostile towards him freeman became. So frustrated, he overturned a box of five hundred Christmas cards. He'd received from patients and shouted how many Christmas cards did you get from your patients? Needless to say this little outburst didn't help his situation. In nineteen sixty seven freeman performed his final procedure at Herrick Memorial Hospital in Berkeley California, his patient Helen Mortenson so happened to be one of his first ever patients back in Nineteen forty-six. Over the years they kept in touch and whenever Helen's symptoms returned, she'd see Dr Freeman for a tune-up it worked better for her than Thoresen had as usual Freeman shot talent into unconsciousness before angling the orbital class at the corner of her eye. He raised his mallet and struck, but this time freemen's orbital classed cut too deep into Helen's frontal lobe her brain began to bleed three days later, Helen died of a brain hemorrhage. The herrick hospital administration was furious and hold Friedman's credentials. He never performed another lobotomy again, Freeman spent the rest of his days following up with old patients. His goal was to gather irrefutable evidence that lobotomy did in fact, how people it was his final attempt to salvage his legacy many patients had returned to their families or pursued careers but others like Howard Deli felt that freemen's lobotomy had taken something from them broken them in some way as the public gradually learned about the true cost of the lobotomy they realized they'd been sold ally Freeman didn't cure his patients. He hit their symptoms from the world and from the patients themselves. The only person who couldn't see the truth was freeman he was consumed by the mythos he built around himself despite his ego he truly believed he'd spent the last twenty years helping the patients he cared about. Dr Walter J Freeman the second died from complications of colon cancer surgery in Nineteen seventy-two, he went to the grave adamant that the lobotomy was most effective psychiatric treatment known to man the controversy over the lobotomy outlived Freeman and Mo- niece. In two thousand, five, Christine Johnson began a petition to revoke Mo-, nieces, Nineteen forty-nine Nobel Prize. Her Grandmother Beulah suffered from hallucinations and depression long after her lobotomy in nineteen fifty to. The procedure only destroyed her ability to make emotional connections. Mrs Johnson argued that had not won the Nobel Prize in Nineteen, forty nine it may have saved her family from heartbreak. She claimed that the foundation had endorsed procedure which caused untold harm to thousands around the world. In two thousand five, the Nobel Foundation responded saying that they didn't revoke prizes freemen's biographer Jack L. High believes that despite the harm done by the lobotomy, it's intentions were good. Revoking, the prize would be stating Mo- niece did something wrong? In reality his intentions were altruistic. The lobotomy was once envisioned as a way to free millions suffering from mental health conditions. Now the procedure seems barbaric. In its time, it was an act of mercy and in some cases, it still is the end of the lobotomy didn't mean the end of psycho surgery. In rare cases, physicians still turn to surgical treatments for mental health conditions today for patients with severe drug resistant epilepsy cutting away portions of the temporal lobe can provide relief from their seizures. This was the same area gottlieb Burckhardt targeted in his patients back in eighteen eighty eight. However, modern methods are far more precise than Burke S-, another procedure bilateral sing a lot of is used as a last resort, intriguing obsessive compulsive disorder, bipolar disorder, and even chronic pain disorders similar to the lobotomy. A singularity targets the LIMBIC system. In this case, the cingulate gyrus is destroyed, which regulates pain and habit formation. Doctors. Believed surgically altering this area relieves repetitive compulsions. Although lobotomies are no longer practiced. It's difficult to write niece and Freeman office monsters. In fact, there are many medical practices performed today that may one day be considered outdated and barbaric. Take. For example, chemotherapy chemotherapy is the leading treatment for most cancers and has proved helpful in treating bone marrow diseases and immune system disorders. But it can come at a great cost to the patient. Some experience a multitude of symptoms such as Pain Nausea and cellular damage chemotherapy can even in rare cases caused mutations that eventually turned into other cancers. Years after a patient has finished treatment chemo is dangerous, but it supporters argue it's not as dangerous as leaving the primary cancer untreated. is why Dr Barron H Lerner professor of Medical History at Columbia University believes it may one day be ostracized. It's not the perfect answer, but it's perhaps the best solution at this point in time. Those society has moved past lobotomies crude methods. We have not solved the underlying problem treatment of mental health conditions of the twenty million worldwide who suffered from schizophrenia only thirty one percent receive effective treatment forty, five, million live with bipolar disorder and two hundred and sixty, four, million people battle depression globally, and those numbers are growing. Patients often can't afford expensive lifelong drug regimens and in developing countries, it can be impossible to get drugs in the first place. Nonetheless, psycho pharmaceuticals are now a fourteen billion dollar industry, but even their efficacy is being questioned. Some accused psychiatrists of over prescribing drugs like antidepressants because they're profitable not because they help for all we know the over prescription of psychiatric drugs will one day be considered a barbaric and ineffective solution to. One that did nothing but increase profits for drug companies at the expense of people with mental health conditions. So before we judge the actions of Walter J Freeman and Antonio Gospel Niece. Must I ask ourselves. Are. We doing any better. Thanks for listening to medical mysteries for more information on the lobotomy amongst many sources we used we found the lobotomize by Jack L. High extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of medical mysteries and all other park asked originals for free on spotify not only despite if I already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy food. You enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like medical mysteries for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream medical mysteries on spotify just open the APP and type medical mysteries in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network will see next time. Medical. Mysteries was created by Max Cutler and his apar- cast studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler Sound Design by Dick Schroeder with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Travis Clark. This episode of medical. Mysteries was written by Evan McKay with writing assistance by Ali, wicker and stars, Molly Brandenburg and Richard Rosner. Listeners, you don't WanNa miss incredible feats the all new spotify original from podcast hosts. Dan. Cummings free straight into the weirdest wildest achievements of all time new episodes air every weekday search incredible feats and follow free on spotify over you get your podcasts

Dr Walter Jackson Freeman lobotomy freeman Dr Walter J Freeman Freeman Watts US spotify Dr James W Watts depression schizophrenia bipolar disorder Dr Walter J freemen partner chlorpromazine Washington DC Nobel Prize Ellen Enescu Dr Antonio Egas Monese Mo- Niece
[BYWG BEST OF]The Power of Turmeric Revealed with Dr. Jennie Freiman

Beyond Your Wildest Genes

38:36 min | 6 months ago

[BYWG BEST OF]The Power of Turmeric Revealed with Dr. Jennie Freiman

"Part three four six seven eight hello. Byu wg tribe this doctor Noah. Here's a quick peek. At our supplement product in book of the month for May Twenty twenty at the end of the podcast. I'll spend a few minutes going into further detail so we encourage you to listen to the end. The supplement of the month for me is our deep sleep assist. The ten percent discount code for the month of May is sleep ten. That's all lower case K. Sensitive it's S. L. E. P. Ten. Our Book of the month is High Fiber Kito a twenty two day science-based plan to fix your metabolism lose weight in pounds. Your hormones are product. Company of the month is Pretty. Frank formerly called primal pit paste one hundred percent natural ingredients. Vero cosmetic bs all the links Discount Code has special offers. Product Supplement in book will be listed in the show tonight tunes posted on Social Media in a weekly newsletter and on our website at www up under wildest jeans dot COM to listen now tab. Thanks for listening. Hi everybody welcome to beyond your wildest jeans cast today you're with Dr Wanderley mcphee hosting and my special guest today Dr Jenny and Freeman. She's a medical doctor and health writer who has joined us this week to talk about her new book. The seats plans. This is the most current comprehensive resource of everything worth knowing about Alzheimer's Prevention and early stage reversal. Everything that's known right now with overwhelming scientific evidence so it's an opportunity to find out what's really working or how this works in the real world how you can maybe add some of these important clues to bring health into your life as well so today Some of you may recognize Dr Freeman Dr John with me before we talked about her company. Ooh Pro and to mark the last time that she was on Some of you may be new to listening to Dr Janai Chat. So I'm going to get her to start a little bit about you. Know How she found her way here. She's a gynecologist by training. And now we're talking about lifelong brain health. Where is the link there so WANNA leave? Thanks for having me on. The link really came out of a personal need. Who is really be the daughter rather than need the doctor who? I became interested in lifelong brain health. And that's the host. My mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. When she was in her sixties unfortunately ought to watch her downhill over a tenure course which was truly awful fallen so she missed the inspiration ever since her diagnosis. I started reading everything that I could get my hands on about brain health and healthy longevity. Because you know. Alzheimer's is highly familial. Having along with Alzheimer's puts me at twice. The risk of the average individual for myself getting outsiders so that was it rain incentive and I learned that. There's a huge amount of information out there. It does not very organized. So no read eat. Blueberries get enough sleep or reduce your stress but the question is how does all of that help. And how do I put all of this information? Burn a useful way so about three years ago. Replace Mike I'm college was my generic Doctor Hat. Allowed me to really apply very critical to the scientific literature. And that's when I really began rapping up my study of healthy longevity and what I was looking for was a unified theory at made logical sense to me as to why all of these diverse strategies might be helpful and then I needed a practical for that was based in science. Put it all together and could be followed relatively easily so my goal is just understanding everything that's numb right now about optimizing the rain and organizing it in a useful way and that's how the seeds plan came about. I think that's amazing. Is that is certainly the challenge that we hear Both from other colleagues and other health professionals as as the public is that there's so much information out there but nobody's bringing this together in a way that that makes sense and that that follows some of those scientific principles and gives us a map that we can actually apply these great ideas to following. So that's what we're GonNa talk about today with the seats plan and around this whole idea brain health. It seems like there's more and more people who are experiencing some version of that or another. I mean it doesn't have to be all the way into an Alzheimer's diagnosis the complaints that I hear in my office around brain fog or difficulty focusing concentrating it. It seems to be increasing. What's going on? Do you think well you're absolutely right? About overall more or people of all ages are experiencing some level of communist impairment. I think that's important related. To the fact that lifestyle diseases are actually skyrocketing in the general population so that kind of disorders that were talking about. Involve Insulin Resistance. Whether it's a form of diabetes obesity or polycystic ovary disease or Metabolic Syndrome. It also includes all they autoimmune diseases. Such as Hashimoto's and Bible Algebra in there are many chronic infectious diseases such as so all of these conditions are inflammatory and they all involved some degree of neuro inflammation which is inflammation of the rain and it turns out that cognitive impairment is actually a spectrum disorder. And as you said Alzheimer's disease is at one end of the spectrum but all of the other things that are going on suggest rain fog. Fibro fog chemo brain. They all share similar rank pathologies with Alzheimer's just on a different part of the spectrum so receiving so much of this in the general public because there is so much there are so many of these inflammatory conditions commonly and the general public and that sort of makes sense than if we're looking at something on a spectrum and you're moving from left to right along that timeline there may be ways that we can either slow or stop the progress from those early stages of that spectrum up into those later stages and I guess that's really where the seats plant comes in absolutely you know as a physician. It only makes a difference if what recommending makes the difference so I really needed to come up with something practical that I could use the nitric share for people that may already someplace on the spectrum and don't want to keep going so that really is what the seeds plan was was scared for so share. Everyone's thinking in the market that keeps saying this seats. What does that mean? What is the theory? What is seeds so on? Cbs's a comprehensive lifestyle that actually leverages five eight years that have been identified as being absolutely essential for life lifelong brain health and those five pillars the word seeds is actually an acronym the five pillars of rain optimization. Have to involve sleep eat exercise domain. Which is my word for the environment and social and so the actual seeds plant itself has two parts the first part that I outlined plans for assessing baseline health and mental function and the risk of cognitive decline. Because you need to know what's going on so that you can plan your checks. And then the second part of the plan is it allows each individual to customize strategies that that I outlined into a very profitable of practical and very workable program that will prevent slow and even reverse rain dysfunction. If it's early warning an important point at the beauty of the plan is that there are many different ways to send the cat. So it's not a one size fits all because each of us are living very different lifestyles so this plan allows individual to pick and choose from many options on both what they're assessed for because not every test is going to be necessary for every individual and how they plan to protect rain on. May different lifestyle measure so a person can personalize their plan on your behind it. I'll just briefly mention. That seats is based on the branch of Biology. Just called Evolutionary Medicine and bat phrase on this as the result of our interaction between our genes and our environment and so our genes turns out are uniquely adapted to conditions that humans lived in last two million years Pantaleo and they have not had time to catch up to modern life so all of us are actually African winter gatherers in our gene pool. And we're living in this modern world and our genes are just not knowing what to do this modern world. So it's a fairly easy fix you know. If you can adopt a lifestyle that reasonably mimics conditions that existed in the Kelly out. You are buying Avoi- all of the common lifestyle illnesses of modern marsh enforce Alzheimer's and cognitive decline. It's just one of those. Yes absolutely so. We're talking about cognitive decline. There's a stage process that you go through. Where is it? Where seats makes the most difference. So there actually on six stages of cognitive decline. Afl Zero one two three four five and seeds can actually make a difference in real meaningful difference in the first four stages and the reason for that is in first for stages the disease whatever level of competent. That's going on is actually confined to part of rain which is called the hippocampus a Madison one quarter of the brain. That's plastic which means that. It can repair by the time. A person is in the advanced stages foreign five which we actually call moderate and severe Alzheimer's disease. The disease has left. The hippocampus in has involves other parts of the brain that no longer that are not classic and cannot repair. So at that point reversible actually WANNA point out stage zero to your listeners. This is super importance. Stage zero is called a preclinical Alzheimer's disease and basically it's stage in which mental function is normal but rain already showing signs of deterioration if tested for example. Mariah was signed on one could be seen to have brain shrinkage or accumulation of toxic proteins. Now in this space individuals have no idea that something is wrong. I can actually go on for decades. It's Kinda silence. I kind of use the analogy person. Who doesn't know they have hypertension. Might feel finding and then one day Stroke because what was going on behind the scenes was not diagnosed. Someone mentioned that this year in two thousand eighteen researchers have estimated that history million Americans after the ages. Thirty already have seen zero or creek. One old Alzheimer's disease and they also concluded that the condition is so pervasive that it's one of the best rationales for prevention absolutely absolutely. So you know that's probably got people thinking right now. We'll how do I know how do I know if I stage zero? Is there any particular tests that people can do on their own at home Well there are. You know that you know your stage zero because that would entail analyzing these are not. These are not routine tests but if a person is having us some sort of a concern that there may be some cognitive decline in. They just want to do something at home. Help themselves out with a little bit of testing before they consult the doctor. There certainly is and by the way if Well the test I'm talking about is called. The sage test is a self administered on Hong tests that takes about. Let's say maybe ten or so minutes although there's no time limit to the test and It's a pretty much a one page test. And you get a score score it yourself. And the score either in normal or mild cognitive decline or obviously dementia. But I think your listeners would not at that level so if they tested tax any kind of cognitive decline you a have the opportunity to partner with your healthcare care provider to look into or diagnostic testing more deeply. And you also have a wonderful opportunity to start your lifestyle measures to seriously address. This and test exists in different versions. So if you take a test than you find there's a problem and you institute some measures and then you want to re-test in three or six months you can actually take different tests one. I mentioned that on my website which is www dot seeds. Plan DOT com. I have the test available out. Called the sage as a g test. You GotTa website you. There's a resource link you. Click on the link. You can download the tests and take it and I also have the answer key have scored the tests and that is a great debate yourself test to kind of either reassure yourself on war. Let you know that. Maybe you want to do a deeper dive. That's Great Santa to impart three of the book. You also talk about some tests that your medical doctor could do that. Could help diagnose a loss of mental function and there's a lot of them there so we don't have to go through every one but is there a couple that you would highly recommend if people are concerned so get all the tests that are listed on as person boost in the book they will not not Test will be relevant relevant to each individual so one would end up kind of creating their own. You of what needs to be tested. One test that I would recommend for everyone which is not a routine test is a vitamin B. Twelve tests and the reason for that is that vitamin B. Twelve is a highly reversible cause of cognitive decline. So I'll tell you a personal story. I of course because of scenes plan at the initiation of this whole thing picked out which tests Relevant to myself an my be twelve tested turns out that my number was three hundred sixty which is within the norm for United States laboratories however. My reading told me that they consider that to the normal. That level can be associated with cognitive decline. So I fixed it. I ended up at inching. My Down Regimen a vitamin B twelve spray and of course. We tested myself role in the optimal range. Now so on even. If you think you're fine it is very possible to have a normal or less than optimal levels and it's very worthwhile to take tests for which you can make a difference mention. A couple of others surely quickly. There's a test for ferrets. Which is test restored? Meyer if you're ferreting level is elevated. That is definitely associated with Hochner decline and that too has easy fix which is actually monthly. You can donate blood. You donate pledging lower. Your blood iron level and your ion source and you also helping your fellow man so it's a double wonderful thing to do both for yourself and for others so those are two that I think are very worthwhile. Our full for everyone. There are many more listed in the book and I said each person than have to on kind of figure out which ones are relevant to them by that any fruit sample. If you have any stomach trouble you don't need to take tests for. Bacteria costs stomach trouble. Because it's simply not relevance year on and it's fairly obvious from the book you might what might be soul twenty individual. What might not be ecessary perfect so you know we talked a little bit about the B twelve there. What is your view on vitamins and supplements to combat COBB so overall I can't stress enough that the strongest health benefits always stemmed from real food and isolated nutrients as a rule don't offer benefits of on nutrients that report about balanced dietary pattern however on the other hand to be realistic Diet. Often does not meet the need so I suggest us in good quality vitamin supplements as a method to fill in dietary gaps method of were prime source of nutrients now in the block. I actually recommend seven supplements for daily use these are things that are not reliably sourced to die and are really important for brain health and I can just their vitamin D magnesium You all which is a form of coq ten P Q is another antioxidant microdosing lithium on NC. Bdo these are seven things that you really cannot get an all. They all have very strong scientific validation for benefits brain health and those. Are you know one thing you did? Tap into his is high high-quality supplements. And you know just as a as a personal comment Not all supplements are created equal. So hopefully when people are exploring their options do a little bit of digging into into the companies and the individuals who are maybe behind some of those supplements that make sure that they're tested and the quality is what you believe that you're buying right actually in in the seats plan. I go through how you can try to figure out how a way to make sure that you're actually taking quality supplements. There is a lot of snake oil out there and it does require somewhere on the part of the individual to dig out. You know when it's going to be really good. Absolutely one thing you talk about in the book as as one of the other pillars is is domain the environment The we know that the air we breathe the water. We drink some of the food we eat may not be what used to be. And we can't move from this planet. So what what can we do? That could make a difference in our domain so to me is actually one of the pillars that there is enormous amount of short improvement. And you did point out to the utterly important factors which are water quality and air quality at one we are all living completely immersed in electrosmog so from the cell phones and the and the power lines and all of the electron upset reuse. And so those for me or three areas that can really impacted fairly easily. Make a major difference so as far as the waters concerned. I'll mention that autos. Water and shelter tap water are literally not optimized for brain health and are not rain. Friendly generally waters failing most sandards for water safety and quality and the bottom daughter. I'd only is not better than that. It's actually generally bottled in plastic which leaches into the water so consuming Tunnels while we're drinking more bottled water. So that's an area. Many is air pollution. Air Pollution has been known to be bad for your lungs bad for your heart and it's only recently that it's become absolutely clear that air pollution is toxic to the brain anche ties up at people send most of their time indoors. So that's the place whether it's at worker at home where you can really make a difference in your air quality on as far as the measures that your listeners can quickly do a for water filter water that could be. You can get great desktop filter. You can reverse OSMOSIS soldier your water. But you've gotTA filter your water and out in about you need to take your water with you bottles in class. As far as air pollution get indoors million bigger problem. Because that's where we spend most of our time you can easily install on a million air filter with has happened filter. And if you like to do so air filtration naturally of big leaf. Plants are fantastic for full during the air. Just outfitted my son's apartment in San Francisco with Peace Lewis in addition to his holter because they just are wonderful to have and they were really well and then finally for the electrosmog pollution. I mean realistically were not our cell phones but you can really try to minimize your contact with that kind. Loesch on your electron ix and there is a wealth Most the information on cellphones is being focused on your cell phones. 'cause rain cancer or not but there is actually a wealth of information on the brain damage that sun on through exposure to on cell phone which is a form of on long-term microwave exposure is damaging to the brain and in confident of function. So those are just three areas that people can make an absolutely immediate difference in their lives and their brain. That's great those are something anyone of us can do anywhere in the world so those are really straightforward and simple things that we can take away from today. You also talk about the book and and I personally love this it resonates with my thinking as well. You talk about normal aging versus natural aging. Could you just share a little bit more about that with us? Yes this is something that kind of like bugs me. 'cause we're generally told that it's normal as we age to develop cognitive decline and and Alzheimer's and the difference between normal actual is million important distinction. So something that's normal is actually a statistical representation of a given behavior honors classes so for example if you are one of the four people who lives in Papua New Guinea ritual. Cannibalism is normal. Because that's a behavior that normally goes on there. If you're in America were one of the Canada or wearing western countries. That's a crime so something that's normal is not. It is simply something that is represented the wisely. You look at Alzheimer's disease or decrying. A those conditions are normal for people who live in the modern kind of post industrial lifestyle. But it's convey are completely abnormal in the context of millions of years of human history. And even to this day. Cognitive decline in Alzheimer's are actually abnormal in groups. That are living more of a lifestyle that kind of arises from our evolutionary heritage. So I really WanNa make the point that longevity unhealthy rain agent are normal under natural conditions? We are not living under natural conditions with our polluted. World are polluted food. And we're all sleep deprived. Just all of the other. Normal editions of modern life are completely unnatural. And so if you can kind of bring yourself back to on more of evolutionary conditions which are really not hard to do. You can enjoy one jeopardy in healthy brain agent important people. Will you know in in taking someone history Do you have headaches? Oh they just have normal headaches. You know once a week normal headache but but that's actually not normal. It isn't it is average. It's become typical but that's not how we're supposed to live so I I love the idea of opening people's brains to the thoughts that just because a lot of people act that way or h that way they don't have to choose necessarily to go down that path so So that's firing and you mentioned in the book that you yourself actually live the seats plan. You follow these five key pillars. These sleep eat exercise domain and social yourself. It may seem a little bit overwhelming for someone who's just starting to think about this. Maybe share a little bit about your experience and how that actually works on a daily basis so at this point in life because I basically have been living this plan on for about two years. It's very set nature and as crazy as that might sound. I actually enjoy Prefer it to the on before which I was reasonably healthy but I think this is far more healthy so for your listeners. I WANNA say so strongly. Please don't make perfect. The enemy of good there isn't enormous. Amount of information does get overwhelming. But you just have to start someplace so I kinda had it easy because I was learning as I went and is so I was able to add on things as I went. I want to mention my absolute favorite part of living the seats land. Which on do you have helped your listeners with your podcasts. Annette's intermittent fasting. But you have some great on podcasts. Around so I do intermittent fasting which is a strategy that is very neuro protective and I do a version of intermittent fasting which is called Tire Circuit. Eac and so. When I began this plan I started out on what was called the twelve twelve program so I can find Union to twelve hours a day and then I fasted didn't eat for twelve hours a day. And if you think about it that's not really that hard to do you. Fish at eight am you. Don't have the nest amounts of food until eight morning. There should fall hours. It's fairly easy to do overtime. Gradually move that so right now. I do and I'm planning on staying on what's called a sixteen eight program so I actually fast for sixteen hours every day and I eat during an eight hour window and that my son horrifying to people. It's incredibly easy to do because what you do. Is You take a seven or eight hours of sleep that you've had and you just extend them these by skipping breakfast and really not eating until around lunchtime and the reason. It's so easy to do. This is that during the fast you can eat. You can consume is zero calorie drinks. And so I happen to be a black coffee lover so I have pretty big pot of organic coffee on with me in the morning while I'm doing work and fasted and it's very easy so I would recommend that to anyone who wants to start start with twelve twelve program very easy to use So as far as all the other strategies. I'm their dual. I do for example a mix of exercise which includes physical exercise sauna and random. That's a thing I talk about in the book which is exercise version being barefoot. It works as an antioxidant There are huge amount of sleep hygiene tips inside. You Fall Asleep. One in I've done is completely banned blue electric technology from at room. None in mere soy sleep in pitch dark worm just really helpful on my domain is very clear out at gotten all the plastic out of my home. My home is not air filter. Water filter loads plants and the final part of the program social. You don't have friends and got to do with those friends in. It's it's fun to human. Please don't count your four thousand friends on face. Love is France it's I think that's an interesting change. And it will be an interesting thing to to see as we look at that evidence over the next number of years they just in watching my own kids and and teenagers as they. They experience life differently socially than than previous generations. Yes yeah so we can go back to the future and and up to were of the facetime friendships that we used to how the electron friendships absolutely absolutely and I love your take on intermittent fasting. That's how I started to was probably twelve to fourteen. Fifteen to seventeen our at a fast. And I e touring the rest and quite honestly things like hypoglycemia and and different symptoms. That would have I would have thought would preclude me from being a faster are completely gone since intermittent fasting so it is if it offers any current for anyone else there. It is quite possible to to eat during that narrow window and feel completely healthy and energized and clear and mentally focused While doing so so that for that now one last thing is we're getting close on time here. We're almost at a half an hour and at the end of the book you do talk about what you just talked about. Now how you should start slow and build up because it can be overwhelming and we don't want people to put so much on that initial platter that they just give up and don't do any of it so we talked about fasting as one thing that they could do right away. What's any other things that people could institute kind of mmediately after listening to us and being inspired by doing something about their mental and cognitive decline? Yeah so the plan. I actually say you're two or three things in each of the five pillars that you could start with and they're pretty easy to do. I believe I mentioned a few of them in terms of what I've done to quickly go through them for sleep. Get those electrons out of your bedroom blackout bedroom. Another tip would be go through. Your medications has a number of them are sleep disrupting and you might be able to find a substitute. Which isn't I actually have a list in. The book of sleep disrupting medications. So that's strategy as far as E. I totally cannot stress that the twelve intermittent fasting is just amazing for brain health and then additionally one should consider taking those seven. Galley recommended rain friendly settlements that I mentioned earlier on in terms of exercise. Sauna is such a kind of quick fix for exercise for people. That can't get out. You know every day great outdoors where sometimes should be sent exercising. If you can do thirty minute. Sauna three times a week sign it turns out is the equivalent of moderate intensity exercise that is very neuro protective suits a great way to mix and match exercise regiment. As far as a everyone please filter your watering air and get rid of all the plastic in your home just so easy to do and so portent and then finally for social you know every everyone has different ways they joy interacting but I think card game every week. Some volunteering something. That gets you out of the house and with other people feeling like you make a difference really does make a difference to your brain health. It's interesting you mentioned that I was taking a course last fall and and they spoke quite a bit about some of the more recent research around volunteering. And what an amazing Benefit that has for brain health and neurological protection. So how how great to be able to help yourself and help others at the same time Building that sense of community and contribution. So anything else that you'd like to leave our listeners with doctors dr any. I think we've had a really great conversation about this. I I know I can think of a few people that I'm certainly going to suggest the seats plan book too and I'm sure other listeners are thinking the same thing anything that you want to leave them with To inspire them as they go forward I actually want to say on to. Thanks so the first one are ready mentioned but on your listeners. Have an amazing resource in your various podcasts. Which have actually covered many areas in strategies that seeks plant and so on in addition to reading the book which. I do think we'll be helping her. May I suggest set your listeners? Coaching REPLANT CAST lists. Because you have great resources that will help them. Build a personalized Health it was the first thing the real final take home message. I'd like to leave with. Everyone is do not for one minute. Believe that. Alzheimer's disease is an inevitable outcome of it's not an you can make a difference in your own future. Love that as so. Thanks Dr Janine Freeman for being part of beyond your wildest jeans today There will be links in the show notes as well as on our website to Dr Giannis website to Amazon to continue gathering the book to learn more and to listen more and we really appreciate your time today. Genuine sharing this with our listeners. Thank you for being here. And thanks to everybody for listening Please feel free to share this podcast with someone. If you think they may find it helpful We do appreciate all you've done to help build this community and built the momentum that is creating better health and wellbeing worldwide we are. We're approaching almost within a hair. The million listener mark and it has been just wonderful to hear back from so many of you with what you like. And what podcasts did change how you behave or how you think or how you live and of course in in our mind changing the future of the world as well. So thanks for your help in doing that as always. There's no cost of listening to the PODCAST. Check it out on the website. Www dot beyond your wildest genes we have other resources there as well or send people to itunes or youtube to hear us in the the greater web as well. So thanks for joining US. Until next time. I hope you enjoy what you've heard and even more importantly take what you've heard today and and make a change because information is only as good as what we do with it. So thanks very much to Dr Jenny Freeman. And we'll talk again soon. It stuck back. I suspect you love listening to this. Week's podcast release. Our Book of the month is High Fiber Kito a twenty two day science-based plan to fix your metabolism lose weight and balance your hormones by Naomi. We'll tell you can listen to my interview. Naomi at the beyond your wildest jeans podcast archives. They April Twentieth Twenty Twenty just a few weeks ago. The link to purchase will be all emails social media and in the show notes. Our product to the month is pretty frank. Formerly cold primal pit pace. Pretty Frank is committed to making safe. High-quality earth friendly products without compromise. Their line consists of deodorant body. Care oral care and skin care products. One of their tagline is one hundred percent natural ingredients zero. Bs No aluminum no parabens no harsh chemicals very timely. They just released a brand new hand purifier. As well centered with Eucalyptus in lavender essential oils are supplemental month is Byu WBZ's deep sleep. Assist deeply assist is a specialized combination of scientifically backed herbs minerals and Amino acids that. Help you get to sleep. Stay ASLEEP. In chief deeper levels asleep so you wake rested and renewed the May fourth podcast. Released will be a deeper dive into this unique effective sleeping. The ten percent discount code for the month of May is sleep ten lower case S. l. e. Ken whether you order online or pick up at the office. If you have any questions or comments please never hesitate to reach out to us. Thank you for your time and be awesome and never on awesome.

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Full Episode: Tuesday, June 9, 2020

Nightline

18:02 min | 6 months ago

Full Episode: Tuesday, June 9, 2020

"Good evening thank you for joining us from Houston Texas rejoice, Floyd the very embodiment of police, brutality and racial injustice in America right now was laid to rest earlier today. The pain was palpable and so to the commitment to change. After. Weeks of unrest. For us to witness a family morning I. Thank God for giving. Me My own personal superman. Fifteen days after the world I learned his name witnesses last breath simply custody. We're all men here, but raise your hand. If you shed a tear F, you saw that video. And ignited nationwide protest tonight, the state of race in America, any black men in this world I fear for them right now. Plus where do we go from here? The student, the pastor and the mayor on creating lasting change from a country paying this is not the time for patients. This is the time for action. His death triggered global demonstrations at a national debate on race in FELICI. George Floyd Rust in peace if America can't find peace and justice. Throughout history there've been hymns to heartache. Today much of the nation hummed along with those who loved the new George Floyd Best. For nearly four hours service steeped in the Southern African American Church tradition, sorrow and celebration mixed. George Lloyd God that at a moment when he called out for his Mama, we believed that. Up Mama profits they retina. Servants Liana him today because when he took his last. The rest of us will now be able to breathe some. Videos going. Art. All this for George Ford Man who for many became the newest martyr America's oldest battle? took an auditor. From the wall. From the housing projects they rejected him for jobs. They rejected him for positions. They rejected him to pray. Teams God took the rejected stone. And made them the cornerstone of a movement to change the whole wide world. Change the world. Perhaps Change Your family. Most certainly I wanna say that I'm I'm GonNa Miss Member. Whole Lot. I think gone for giving me. Give me my own personal superman. Bless your. Name is Bruce Williams George flawlessness and I can breathe. Longest I'm breathing just as we'll be served America. It's time for change, even if it shall begin with more protests, no justice, no peace. His, life mad at all. Our lives matter black lives matter. His death would not be in vain. What's his name? What seems so different this time this time the world mourns with them from the sanctuary to the sidewalks. In Houston. The world would witness hope. But in cities, large and small across America. The angry edge of hope has also been in full bloom. FIT officers need to a defenseless man's nick. In eight minutes and forty six second metaphor to challenges too many black, and Brown and poor Americans of face for centuries. In fifteen days, voice death has already sparked change. Federal legislation introduced to reform police tactics. New York City in Los Angeles, committing to divert funds from police to community programs and the removal of confederate brothers across the country. How George Louis die tells one painful story of America. where he lived, most of his life tells another. Houston's third ward mostly black mostly pull. The ills of urban life in poverty don't simply live here. They've been allowed to fester for generations. Over half the people here are food insecure thirty percent live below the poverty line. The area ranks one of the most dangerous in the US. This soil so often quicksand for dreams. Right here in the heart of third. Ward Jess blocks from were George Floyd grew up with the high school ran around with his friends street that ran in front of historic. African American part. was named after confederate civil war. General Richard Dick dowling and it wasn't changed to MS patient until two years ago. I met Floyd Shave. Simmons went to high school with flowing for her like him. Houston's third ward is inner blood. What does life in the third ward mean it means pride. We were given everything at the bottom of the barrel, but as far as our hearts. We all got hearts. Alliance we want was was good for each other. We just haven't been taught. How does how tainted? Floyd now, another black man she seen die. We lose all of our men out here that really stand for something and you know we've got the younger generation man that a lost. You don't know how to lead a home of all being raised by women and women cannot teach man how to be a man i. don't care how hard of a woman she is. What was is? What was it like growing up in the time? You guys grew up here. Well his MOM MISSISSIPPI. If you live around here, we all knew heard I'm smiling. You say your name. I do because she was loved. She was low. She took anybody that needed somewhere to sleep. Whatever she be feeding her family that day she had enough. You can eat their to floyd when I say. They had little very little, but they had a bunch of that house. What would you use to describe George? Enormous. He was a person that filled the room. With love his eyes, so the peace within him even though we all made mistakes. What's going on to shave own story is familiar here for years in prison for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. Nail, college educated professional woman in the third ward. Making mistakes are critical critical to your life and critical to your freedom. Left Houston Minneapolis Minnesota searching for better opportunities, a better life and new walk in his journey of faith. That was his second chance to make a better life for yourself when he came here. And he was, he was hitting that way. Theresa Scott Near Fiance. Album Nigo were floyd's roommates close friends. Family you know he'd call her TT? Outcry together, we prayed together. You know we had a good relationship man. Floyd did I call him my gentle giant. The couple says what happened to floor is something he feared. He always say. Man. He said. I don't mess with the police. He's Do whatever they want me to do. He said because they looking to kill a big brother like me. And he was right and they it. They did. Reform this coming to the Minneapolis police. Department and the four former officers involved or all charge. But, for Elvin. There's nothing to celebrate our. Just want him to have some. But just fill is just so solon unfair so unfair that they're out here and. They're able to have a breath and a life, and and his life is gone, and he had to give his life for us to have justice in a different way. Last night at Jack. Yates High School candle vigil, honoring their glumness class of Nineteen ninety-three. Trust in the schools comes crimson goal be. His childhood buddies called him pairing his middle name I kind of big. Brothers called in big flow. Here raise your hand. If you shed a tear matthew, you saw video Austria. Up. The fact that you knew him. He's your boy grew up together. What was different about this video to this difference? We haven't seen nobody get killed on live, TV nobody actually seems footage of a man big enforced like why. USA already subdued. He's under control. That's why shocked the world, but will. The world changed this time. His friends one. Got To understand that this is not a sprint, but it's a marathon. Wants to license the cameras gone. What's the protest is off? We gotta keep that that energy going by because the system is set up. To wait us out. So we can get emotional team. We we ended for the long haul and I'm not gonNA. Say Our white American a racist and they are prejudiced, but for now they're listening, which is a story? But how long were you is what we need as? Tonight is George Floyd Sleeps for eternity next to his mother's grave, his family, his friends and strangers here in Abroa- believe his death was different. Thus the future will be different. The Review Mary's very small new car. But the but the windshield is very big. So you look in the rear view mirror for just a brief moment to give you a visual. What's behind? You always look at it. Look forward. Always the pain her serve. Man. George Florence funeral here in Houston today there was a unified call for justice, not just for one man, but for every man. Earlier today I spoke to Houston mayor so vest return has to PT and Wollo and Texas Southern University student Alexandria Barnaby. Thank you all for joining us Mr Mayor. I like to start with you. You now plans to sign an executive order that will ban the use of Cocos in Houston. How else does your civic handling? Yes, conversation on police reform. Well, you know it's been a very robust conversation, which is good I will be signing an executive an executive order that will deal with deadly force deescalation training comprehensive reporting along with other things as well. What was it much resistance, or was the spirit and the city of Houston that something had to change now. But I think as a spirit in this city as well as cities across this country I mean people frustrated. They're angry. Emotions running high. They saw what happened to George flawed. They don't WanNa. See that repeated. In fact, they've seen it happen to too many people. Especially African Americans and so black lives matter. That's critically important. Look, we need the community and law enforcement to be on the same team moving in the same direction and pastor place joining this conversation. You knew George Foot. He was a friend of yours talk about this moment in time for you and talk about your dear friend George is. The picture, perfect example of what Christianity is it's. It's not defined by perfection. Is defined by redemption. and. I met him while I was trying to break into ministry in Cuny. Halls project I needed a partner. Who would help me get into the doors and big floor was a gateway that allow me to do man countless things. If you call them was a servant leader. It sounds like it was deathly a servant leader. And Alexander I. Know Your Student At. Texas Southern University historically Black College. It's world famous debate team you're you're part of that for your generation, which seems to be the real energy now in this movement if if it is that what's? Where's your heart right now? My heart is Is Heavy, because of the fact that. We have to move with intention I think that it is. It's It's okay to do it now where we're seeing a trend to do it now, but we can't lose that motivation. My heart is focused on not only seeing you know the this particular case be brought to justice, but prevention form allowing it to happen again. When certainly you talk to people of perhaps of my generation to people in power across our country and politics. They talk about be patient. Your generation doesn't sound like you have any interest in being patient. Because we've watched it happen time and time again. Our mothers were patient. Our grandfathers were patient. They were all very patient, and now is not the time for us to be patient. Because I'm pretty sure that George flood was very patient while he was gasping for air. I'm pretty sure that you know the mini black men and women who have lost their lives due to law enforcement were patient when as when trying to you know advocate for their right to live. So I. This is not the time for patients. This is the time for action. Mayor what's next for Houston. Here, Look. This is a very diverse city It's it's important people on. People want good policing. They want accountability. They won't transparency is not just about getting good. Policing and policing right is also about making sure that we're meeting. The needs of people in communities that have been undeserved and under resource for a long time quality housing, quality playgrounds parks economic business job opportunities, good quality education. All of these things are important, so if you invest in these communities that have been undisturbed and under resource for decades then you don't have to spend as much on policing pastor you can. Can you can hear the frustration in the mayor's voice certainly here in Alexandra's voice you as a man of the Gospel. How did you reassure people in this time? When people are sick and tired of being sick and tired, they're tired of promises. They want results. God here's the every innocent suffering from able to Christ and including our brother Floyd. He's heard his voice, I think his death was an inflection. Point we either going to master the sin of racism, or the sin of racism is going to masters us. Alexandra will give you the last talking to pastor mind for the scripture that says a child will lead the way your generation will lead this movement. A mindful for you just yesterday. You Lost Your Mentor Dr. Thomas Friedman, the legendary debate coach at t issue. WHO also taught Dr? Martin Luther King Junior debate, but do you think Dr Freeman might say about this time to you and your classmates, so your university tallest Dr Freeman has always encouraged us to use our platforms as a way to vocalise plight. It's more than just good policing. We need an actual change in the way. Civilians Interact with law enforcement Dr Freeman has always encouraged us to not only put our best foot forward, but act with intention. It's more than just saying black. Black lives matter we have to make black lives matter and protect those black lies with legislation with protection with action Dr. Freeman always said in. It's the motto of our debate team. What we do, we do well what we don't do. Well, we don't do it all. It is time for not only Houston, but every city in America to do this and do it right the pastor for him. It is the word of God. That gives some comfort. I know for the mayor. It is the power of position that he's able to influence change. Where does your spring comes? My strength comes from. Generations of Black Women being silenced of being denied the basic inalienable rights guaranteed to every person in this country, but our people wash. Thank you all so much through time. Thank you for this. Conversation is a long one. It will continue for a while. Thank. Thank you. Finally tonight for the past two weeks. America has been engaged in an uncomfortable conversation in many ways, our great nation was born from discomfort in Seventeen, seventy, five Patrick Henry said, give me liberty or give me death in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, five Dr, King asked how long and then he answered his own question, not long because the Ark of the more universes is long, but have been towards justice. History shows US America can take on the uncomfortable when she wants and move forward, never perfect rather striving to be a more perfect union. This evening from Houston. Thanks for the company America Goodnight. Stay safe. If you like getting the story behind the story checkout start here, the Daily News podcast from ABC News every morning. Start here. We'll get you ready for your day. With inciteful straightforward reporting on a few of the day's biggest headlines from round breaking investigative reports to urge revelations, Shaping your world recently honored with prestigious. Murrow award start here takes you inside the stories that matter in with headed next, so start smart. We start. He'll check it out on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast APP.

Houston George Floyd America Floyd Shave USA George Floyd Rust George George Lloyd God Minneapolis George Ford Texas Southern University Martin Luther King Southern African American Chur FELICI Texas George Louis America George Florence funeral Yates High School
SYSK Selects: How Lobotomies Work

Stuff You Should Know

36:52 min | 2 years ago

SYSK Selects: How Lobotomies Work

"I'm Katie golden. I studied psychology and Evelyn Schnur biology at Harvard, and I pretend to be a bird on Twitter and my new podcast creature feature. We've you nature in man from a new perspective each episode asking a comedian to get inside the minds of animals, so we can explore the startling connections to human psychology, you'll find blood bands and treachery that make game of thrones seemed like a dumb show for babies. Join us every Wednesday and subscribe on apple podcasts or on the I heart radio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Saturday stuff. You should know. Select addition Chuck here with my pick of the week all the way back to two thousand nine may nineteenth lobotomies, man. This one is courageously. This is one of the so good. I wish we'd go back and do it again for the first time so much fun to research, really interesting and grisly history medical history. Some of my favorite stuff lies in those topics. And this one is all about lobotomies, man. Oh, man. Just get ready to learn about the frontal lobe ice pick lobotomy. They actually do that. Welcome to stuff, you should know from how stuff works dot com. Pay in welcome to the podcast. It's called stuffy should know. It's Josh and Chuck Compton and Long Beach together. Now, you know, you're trouble. Chuck he won't even sit on. Good. Thanks. How you doing? Welzer you pretty good feeling. Great, actually, Chuck. I'm glad to be alive. Yes. So yes, I think this could arguably pan out to be our greatest podcast ever, you just jinxed us. No, I really don't think. So Chuck did the cheek thing twice before this one is kind enough to do it a second time. And I don't think we've ever had a topic that Chuck in remorse intensely interested in than this one. I know it kinda just came out of nowhere, and it's really well not out of nowhere because it's historical. But in our is out of nowhere, which if say in our is what little for shadowing Charles Bryant. Nice one shock if you will get off of LL cats for a second. Go check. You're tuned. You'll find that the title of this one is how lobotomies were. Yes. And that's what we're going to be talking about her lobotomy. So fascinating. It really is lobotomies kind of exist in this little segment of twentieth. Century culture medical madness. I guess you could say, right, right and pop culture because you still here. It being thrown around like boys. My lobotomize me scramble, my brain. But it's kind of exactly the way it happened. Yeah. Yeah. So check your lover of great cinema. Right. Of course. Of course, you seen one flew over the cuckoo's nest have a poster you do. Yeah. Good one the one in Jack Nicholson laughing with the ones cap on yet. It's a good one. So of course, you remember the pivotal scene movie where mcmurphy is lobotomize for being unruliest tries to hatchet because there's ratchet nurse ratchet hatchet and slip right there. It was. She was a hatchet. Yeah. So she was mean, I'm totally with you. It was the, Freddie and slip part. That got me. I had like eight jokes going ahead at once. And I was like can't say that can't say that you can't say that Terminator. Yes. Gaining for. Exactly, right. Yeah. So yeah. So he tries to kill nurse ratchet because she was a terrible nurse kind of evil. Yeah. Very evil. And so he gets lobotomize, and they don't show the. Procedure. Don't worry if you ever want to know what one was like, we're going to go into grisly detail, and he comes out just kind of this drooling imbecile awful, which I have to remind everybody was actually a medical term before. It was embassy was imbecile moron idiot were all degrees of mental retardation while. Uh-huh. And that weird. Yeah. Of course is the same time that people were performing lobotomy. So seems very archaic. Even though it wasn't that long ago. Yeah. Well, let's set the scene. Okay. Okay. All right. So we're talking the nineteen thirties. Right. And the nineteen thirties where a terrible time to be nuts. Basically, you got locked up in a straight jacket. Yeah. To keep you from eating your own feces or throwing it at orderlies or doing anything. Really crazy. Yeah. And that was about it. Right. They had certain certain techniques like shock therapy. Right. What are the us? They still shock therapy here. And they're actually so you well, you have electro convulsive there. Right. Right. And you had apparently they also use insulin. Okay. Insulin. Right. We know how bad that is from. I can't remember one of our aging podcasts. Right. Right. And they would basically inject a hefty dose of insulin into a patient to the. Okay, chuck. Yeah. Okay. My paper rustling was going to get the rats, Jerry, the they know us crib sheets, buddy. Sure. So they inject the patient with a hefty dose of insulin and would basically shock their system possibly causing convulsions. There is another drug was this just to subdue them. Hold on. I'm getting to that. This is the craziest part this. This was the grasp that medical science had on mental illness at the time. Right. There's another drug called a metro which was a respiratory and circulatory stimulant. And then hefty doses to produce shock and convulsions. So if you'll notice all three of these produce convulsions shock therapy. And the reason that they did that was because there was a suspicion that there is a link between epilepsy convulsions and mental illness, and that if you had one you couldn't have the other by producing convulsions they thought that they were treating mental illness. Wow. Unbelievable. Yeah. So you could have just had epilepsy in that. They would sit you in the electroconvulsive shock therapy chair and to treat you. Yeah. The stick a little paddle in your mouth and turn on the juice. Tell you what man I like sometimes look back and say boy, the nineteen fifties that would have been cooled with back then. But then hear stories like this. And you kind of forget about the downside. Yeah. Ec is definitely one of the downside era. Right. All right. So another problem with this is that the mental mental care. Have you had a lobotomy? I had a little bit of one. Yeah. No. Had to Metra's Holly all jacked up, the the the state of mental hospitals in the US in the in the thirties and forties was that they were overcrowded, right? Because I mean, if you can't treat anybody really you can't treat their mental illness rightly come in there in. Yeah. They wanted docile patients they wanted people that didn't cause trouble. And really anyway, they could get there was kind of okay at the time and this right? And this was also before drug therapy was created right? So in the thirties nineteen thirty six this new procedure comes about a right? Well, nineteen thirty five thirty five thirty in Portugal five you're right. Yes. Sorry about that. Yeah. That was Dr Antonio Goss money's nice and Dr on media Lima in Portugal, perform the first lobotomies by drilling holes into the skull on either side of the prefrontal cortex and injecting alcohol in there to destroy the fibers. Okay. Naked. And this was actually based on an earlier study from nineteen thirty three by a couple of Yale. Researchers who remove the prefrontal cortex from a pair of monkeys. Yeah. Lucienne who those an-and pinky will say at least thinking. Yeah. These two monkeys had their prefrontal cortex court, Texas removed, and the researchers found that they could still they still had intellect. Right. But they were lacking the emotion that led to violent outbursts when they didn't get their way. Yeah. Techy, by the way, like dinky better. Can we stay with teacher? Okay. So the the Dr oh the porch Fulton Carlisle going back to Portugal. Yeah. Dr monis. Yes. Saw Fulton present one of the the ill research saw Fulton present his findings and he thought right? My mental patients act like monkeys in a violent outbursts, when they don't, you know? Right. When they see things. That aren't really there. Right. So let me get my hand cadaver and see what I can see what I can work out with the Ryan. So this early early. It was called the prefrontal lobotomy, right? Started out like you said by drilling holes in the skull man, adding alcohol, and the whole reason why Chuck the the prefrontal cortex why the frontal lobe, what's so important about that. Well, the the prefrontal lobe cortex Josh has number of complex functions called executive functions. What they're known as we're talking high level decision. Making planning reasoning understanding personality, personal expression that right thing. So basically, your personality the way you create things the way you see the world and how you react to the world emotions, right? This is all this is all generated here. It's originates in the frontal corden yard stabbing. The front of your head right now. Just doing thanks. And so that as we all know that the brain is connected. It's all connected together. Sure. Sending and receiving signals like. Like mass Email, and so what you have here, you got types of matter, gray and white matter gray matter includes neurons, and brain cells and blood vessels and things like that white matter is Exxon's and nerve fibers, and they connect the gray matter and carry messages with electric impulses. So great matters where these impulses are generated the white matter translates transfers them be at transmits transmits one of the trans. So lobotomy would that does is intended to sever the white matter between the different areas of gray matter fuss. Interrupting the the transmission, right? And the problem with a doctor Moonies technique that early technique using alcohol is like you said the brains all connected and alcohol being liquid. It's kind of hard to keep in one place. Right. So it started to go and destroy other areas yet, right? A very good idea. But he was onto something. He he was onto something by destroying the white matter. Right. Yes. So instead, he decided to be a little more precise. And he kept with the whole drilling method based on an ancient ancient method brain surgery called trepidation, right? Which actually what gosh could gonna be in trouble here. We had a fan right in in suggests reputation. And that's what got me on the bottom us in the first place, and I apologize if you're listening. You don't remember the thank you nameless fans. Love you Benke. Thanks pinkie or Becky. Hey, dude. How's it going? Pretty good. You know, why Chuck why? Because I just realized Chuck that lows has new innovative craftsman products, including their new v twenty power tool battery platform, which is basically all you need. Yeah. And dude I've gotten way into home improvement over the years and become quite a tool head myself in craftsman's v twenty cordless power to align up is really pretty great features. High capacity lithium batteries, that's part of an inner changeable battery system. So you can operate all these tools with these same superpowerful lithium batteries, the v twenty brushless drill impact driver and hammer drill. And they're all proudly made in the USA with global materials in Charlotte, North Carolina. That's right, everyone for the latest craftsman product updates just visit lows dot com slash S. Y S K. Yeah. Actually in the article Hal about Amies work. There's a cool relief from her Onuma Spock painting of some early physician trip. Panning a patient, and he's got like a little segment of the skull lifted off in the brains exposed and he's just poking around in there. But okay, so he's still doctors is still using the drilling method. Right. But now he's inserting instruments in there. Right. Inserted this one that sounded like is a handle with a little loopy wire that comes out tracks, Luca Thome. Yes. So when you when you put it when you push down the back of it the loop extends out, and then you can pull it in just basically remove hunks of prefrontal cortex, white matter. Right. And that's exactly what. Hopefully, Whitehead her. Yeah. You'd think and it was successful. Right. Well, yes, you're to to again to varying degrees. Yeah. Maybe not again because I think it's the first time we said that. But yet the villa. Bottom e was successful to varying degrees, very varying degrees. But there was this guy who went and saw Dr Monis perform one of these. Yeah. This gets good. And this guy was named Dr Walter Freeman in for probably about what fifty thousand people in the US alone. This meeting between these two men was the worst thing that ever happened in the history of humanity. Right because it's about how many people were lobotomize between for about a seven year period in the US was just seven years. Yeah. Nine to fifty six while have you worked. So then there there's many many more actually, but yeah, the doctor Walter Freeman became an immediate evangelists. He was called for lobotomies. Right. He he tried Moonies technique with. With a partner and did it successfully for a while. But the problem is it was still surgery. Right. It required a surgeon to do it rating room right in Freeman was actually not a neurosurgeon. He was a neurologist right instead. Yup. So there were some some drawbacks to it and Freemen's ping right expense being one of them time and resources. So he created something that was a lot handier a lot easier a lot quicker, and that is what we call the trans orbital or ice pick lobotomy right show. Can I say this is yes, he determined that if you took something which is technically called an orbital class, but it's really look sort of like a nice back. You said it yesterday on our webcast. It's an ice pick you call it a rose by any other name. Exactly. So you put this ice pick over over the eyeball, but under the the bone there. What's call between the eyeball and the eyelid the eyeball nine till the. Back of the orbital bone bright. So once you get to the back of the orbital bone. There's a little resistance there because it's bone to enter little silver hammer. And so he just tinker on that thing until it cracks through and then he's got a pretty clean passageway to the phone cortex yet. And so you've got an ice pick sticking out of your eye. He he scrambles it up a little bit. Once it's in there. And then he does the same thing on the other side and ten minutes later, you're lobotomize literally. So he'd do both sides. Right, right. He got kind of good at this. Yeah. Dr Freeman got really, I guess you could say good at this or at least very fast in one two week period in West Virginia, he perform lobotomies on two hundred twenty eight people. Yeah. And in one day, he performed lobotomies on twenty five patients. Right. One day one day. So he's just basically bringing them in and sending them out. He's exactly doing that actually read interview with one of assistance at the time. And he said he would literally not take breaks as the patient left. Another one would be brought in ten minutes later, boom. And I don't think we mentioned yet. He before he does he doesn't use anesthetic. He knocks him out with electroshock. Right. So it's making use of two extremely primitive in yet techniques time and the result was. Like, we said varied. I mean, it ranged anywhere from people being satisfied, and you know, seemingly successful like a highly emotional, people suicidal all the sudden being more docile and not so worried to to death and people rendered vegetables, literally. So, yeah, we'll dial over the map Dr Freeman actually referred to lobotomies informally as sole surgery. Yeah. Hate that. The reason why is because he was basically removing what kind of what makes us human people can still function under successful about me people could still function. They could still talk. Right. They weren't. They weren't doing anything bringing in the end of the table. There is no reason for them to exist so much anymore the mercenary surgery. Exactly, right. And he would he did it again so fast. So so often and he had a touch of show-me into him. Yeah. He basically. Did he had labata mobile in which he performed demonstrations. Right. He toured the country when all over the place. I think he ended up doing estimates. Run from two thousand five thousand between nineteen forty six and nineteen sixty seven trans orbital lobotomies in twenty three states, right US. Right. He performed with both hands. He would stick the ice picks in with both hands at once to add a little flair, but showmanship. Yes. So he was basically performing shows lobotomy shows and not everybody reacted well to these right? They're seasoned surgeons who had seen tons of gore and blood and horrible things in their lifetimes would vomit watching these things some had to leave. There was a nurse whose account. I read of watching lobotomy said the when he moved the ice picks back and forth. It made the sound of tearing cloth later on in the USSR, which actually banned LeBron. And I think nineteen fifty three nineteen fifty three or we did. Which was is embarrassing. Yeah. Well, fourteen years before we did. Right. Yeah. Yeah. A physician named Nikolai or surrend sqi Sereshk Celeski. Thanks, OSA, risky Eski. He called. He said that lobotomies violate the principles of humanity and change an insane person into an idiot. Again, remember medical term as time. Sure. So I imagine that there was something that affected you were you human being like a real human being seeing this this rough violent misguided or unguided procedure being performed that. It would affect you in some way. Like, some very primal part of you would say that's not supposed to happen. Right. Plus there was no official scientific basis for this. It was basically, hey, look at the result, in some cases. That is what they were kind of basing this whole thing on and also as we were saying about Freeman being showman and doing it so fast. There was one visit to a mental institution in Iowa. I don't remember what year it was. But Freeman killed three people in one visit. Yeah. And one of the people this is so awful. He was doing his little show off thing with the two picks at once instead of as his own procedure dictated one and then the other side, right? He was doing two picks at once. So the patients on the table with two ice pick sticking out of his eyes. And Freeman says, I'm gonna take a photo of this steps back to take a photo one of the ice pick slips and kills the patient instantly. Right. So apparently Freeman was said to have basically just packed up. Right, then and moved on to the next place without missing a beat or say cheese, stink packed up. The labata mobile hit the, you know, one person he'll bottom is Josh. I know you do he lobotomize John F? Kennedy sister. Rosemary. Yep. Dr Freeman did in one thousand nine forty one Rosemary twenty three years old and an early on her childhood. She was Cheyenne easy going. They say, but as teenager shocker, she became rebellious and moody, which and that's what struck me a lot of these cases is so many of them were just normal human emotions like anything from postpartum depression to a, you know, a overactive child, you know, it's just unbelievable. Right. So she was lobotomize and afterward was rendered basically. She couldn't speak. She had the mental capacity of an infant couldn't controller bodily functions and the Kennedy family, basically from that point on said that she was mentally retarded which they claim that she may have been before. But who knows you wanna talk about another guy? Howie Chuck, and I have shared hero. He's an indomitable three hundred fifty pound six foot three bus. Driver who has this gentle tender personality and his name is Howard dully and at the age of twelve Howard dully met a doctor Freeman under unfortunate circumstances. Meaning Dr Freeman headed couple of ice picks on him when they met right and Howard ended up under Freemen's care because of his stepmother, right Chuck. Yeah. He it was the kind of the classic story. The father gets remarried to step mother who is not very patient and understanding with her son that sounded like, you know, sound like he may have been little Ryan bunk ships, but what twelve year old boy isn't. And I think you have some good notes actual notes. Yeah. Well, in in Freemen's notes that dully turned up later, we should say Howard, duly created this great radio piece. That's on NPR you can actually find by typing in Milo bottoming, Google, I think it's the first thing that comes up, right? It's one of the most amazing things you've ever heard where he just goes. And retraces the steps of his lobotomy that he got the news. Twelve and Bryant tries to get to the bottom of what happened. We typically don't recommend people. Go listen to other things that not us. But yeah, that's how good it is. Right. Yeah. Exactly. It is that good. It's way better than actually answer. But he finds the doctor Freemen's notes on his case and apparently stepmother plead her case to get him lobotomize by pointing out that he daydreams Allott. And when you ask them what he's daydreaming about. He says, I don't know. Right. He doesn't want to go to bed, and he does he sleeps. Well, right. My personal favorite. He turns on the lights in rooms when there's broad daylight streaming in unbelievable. I know that kid deserves a lobotomy. Yeah. One of the things I think one of the reasons why unite both look up to Howard dully was because he has wondered is whole life. Uh-huh. How different would he be right? I lived hard and fast as younger, man. Right. You know, your home days now. Right. Yeah. Here tackle Anacle actually, way way harder and faster. So, but I've I've often wondered, you know, how much sharper would I be not live like that? Right. But this is my own doing. It was my own choosing Howard Doley head to think that same thing. Like is there something wrong with me part of me missing through choice or fault of his own? Uh-huh. We should also say that when Howard stepmother found that he was not a vegetable she just got him out of the house, and he became a ward of the state. Yes. So he went to all of lady. Yeah. So again, I in the end, he finds, you know, there there really isn't something wrong with him. He's a pretty terrific person as as as it turned out lobotomy or not, right. Took him a long time. Now. I mean, he battled addiction and various forms of mental illnesses whole life after this and think going this dismay. Special that aired and he wrote a book and went and talked to his father after forty years. He actually finally spoke to his dad about it. And that seems to have been the thing to get him over the edge to not feeling like a freak anymore. He called it. You can actually hear him working it out in my lobotomy. Yeah. A big deep voice sounds kind of like Sam Sam Sheppard sin. What's guy? Big lebowski. Same Elliott Timet? Yeah. So you're minded me of the dude. Yeah. Y-y'all said that big moustache Sam Ellen. Yeah. The handlebar biker moustache. I can't believe it. That Gerald is presenting the quarterly budget report with finger puppets. Look here comes one point seven percent decrease in fixed overhead I know everybody. No, I can't believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on car insurance with geiko. Though projected increase in organic three revenue. Believe it. Geico could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. So Chuck, whatever happened to lobotomies what we're why they go the way dinosaur, just go. Well, a couple reasons I mean, one those a lot of gaining steam with the criticism of it because they found that they were lobotomize ING criminals there were lobotomize ING soldiers from World War Two because criminals against their will sometime. Right. But they lobotomize soldiers because hospitals were overcrowded veterans. Unbelievable. Yeah. And so that that was kinda gaining steam. And then the introduction of Thorazine, basically was kind of starting at all everything I believe that somebody said Thornton was to the treatment of schizophrenia that insulin. I'm sorry that penicillin was to the treatment of infectious diseases, right? Which is a pretty big comparison. Yeah. Big time. So Thorazine was developed in nineteen fifty and as it began to to fall into wide. Produce lobotomies kind of fell out of widespread. Use in Dr Freeman himself. He he had one last one when last lobotomy in nineteen sixty seven right? Yeah. Killed the woman with a brain hemorrhage after the third try. I think this is her third lobotomy. Yeah. And she wasn't just you know, some mental patient in Iowa. This is a housewife. And when she died of a believe hemorrhage after the procedure that third procedure that was it. He was banned from surgery performing any kind of surgery from that point on and actually spent the rest of his days until he died in nineteen seventy two traveling the country in a camper was wondering if it was his labata mobile. Yeah. I don't know. He wasn't pitching. He was actually going around trying to find he was visiting old patients to prove that he had done good any had done some good in a couple of of. Cases, in several cases. I imagine his first one was a woman. Can't remember first name. But it was I n Esco. Yeah. And she she was violently suicidal is described by her daughter and afterwards, she went on to to live a happy fulfilled life. Yeah. But, you know, every every successful case I read about they would say things like they weren't finally suicidal anymore, and they were just kind of happy. But it it's still seem to be that lights are on. But no one's home thing. Like the couple the Mary ever Palmer of you, though. The Mary couple is the husband had his wife lobotomize because she was so emotional in. She was suicidal as well. Yeah. Yeah. And she says that she is happy as a clam, and he was satisfied he said that she came home and she never calls anymore. Trouble. And she was just happy and she could still backed talk. Yes, she could still cook and clean and do all the things she could do before. And she agreed just haven't been worried about things since then choose in her eighties. But you know, that and. Emotions are normal mood. Swings are normal. It's agree. But I do I do think that there is a certain threshold. And if you're violently suicidal. You know, maybe a lobotomy was a better option. Yeah. But I also want to know what the criteria for all. This was back. Then there wasn't any. So. Yeah. So that in your pipe and smoke. It's one of the most unsettling. One of the most unsettling things that I found from this article is that lobotomies are still performed today in England, right? The UK's one of a few countries where it's it's no longer called the Bottomley's 'cause lobotomy is such a horrible stigma attached to it right for good reason. Neuro surgery for mental disorder and MD and today, apparently they use 'em arise as guides to be more precise. But pretty much this type of surgery psycho surgery is called is pretty much the same thing destroying white matter, and you're removing people's emotional cells. Right. I mean, there may be something to to that. But certainly was so nonspecific in nontechnical to jam fix and just blindly moved them back and forth. Right. No wonder that was all kinds of results. Yeah. So Chuck, we are both kind of nuts. And I'm really glad it's not like nineteen forty six cause trouble. Yeah. My wife, Emily. And I would both be on the the lobotomy table. I think I drive you to see Freeman. Thanks church. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's it. It's Levada means buddy. Yeah. I encourage people to go out and listen to Howard delis radio show. They're really great. Okay. Hopefully, you guys enjoyed this one. You can read all about lobotomies on how stuff works dot com. You know, what to do, you know, handy search bar cetera? And Chuck, let's let's talk some office. Our sponsor audible dot com. Hit. Okay. So if everyone goes to WWW dot audible podcast dot com slash stuff and sign up to get one free. Download from audible dot com fifty thousand plus titles of audio stand up comedy spoken, word speeches, pretty much anything. You can listen to is right there. Yes. And I was on there browsing just this morning, and I found one of my all time favorite books. Fourteen ninety one by Charles, man Goodman. Great one man runs around the Americas. Basically to archaeological sites gets the scoop on the most recent findings in finds that there were way more people in the Americas before Columbus showed up than we realize. And yeah, there's a lag between the arrival of Columbus to Hispaniola. And the the second wave that followed within the next fifty years, the second wave found that this you know, that was virgin territory. There's almost no one. There turns out it's because about one hundred million people died of smallpox from Columbus first arrival. Wow. Between then in the second wave. It's fascinated many sewed right there. You just did one. Maybe we'll do a bigger sewed on a bigger. Yeah. What about you? You've been on. Yeah. I'm going to recommend just quickly. Stephen Colbert of the Colbert report. Oh, I saw his portrait is National Gallery portrait Sony recently. It was awesome with millions. Scowl? I love the gun. So yeah, he has a very popular book that he reads himself called I'm an American, and so can you, and that's all I need to say about that hysterical. So you can either one of those titles for free by going to WWW audible, podcast dot com slash stuff and signing up. And that is audible right there, baby. Listen listener, let's do it. Josh, I'm just gonna call this. We got a lot of great feedback for the high fructose corn syrup. Yeah. Yeah. Much of that. We're going to have probably like three podcast and row. We're going to be reading. Really? We should bring back haiku. Okay. All right. So I'm just going to call it intelligent listener mail because max smart guy, and I like these most of all I'm graduating senior in the business college. But when I'm not in class or listening to podcast, I almost always enjoy listening to philosophy. It's more or less. My passion. More specific lamb interested in world, religion, medic metaphysical theory and man's relationship to nature in the universe. So this guy's obviously smarter than the heavy to say that fructose corn syrup or any other manmade. Chemical compound is not her naturally. You're speaking with the basic assumption that man is something different than nature, unfortunately for those who can find themselves above nature and importance or thirty. This is not the case. It's our western culture and religion that strengthens this point of view man, didn't plop into nature as a separate and flawed phenomenon. In a stupid natural universe. Man. Came out of nature man is nature man is the universe to borrow quote from my favorite place for Alan watts. And you're seeing you're hearing you're talking you're thinking, you're moving you express that which it is which moves the sun and other stars. So to perceive yourself something different is only an inability to identify yourself with the cosmos. So Josh man's manipulation of compounds is really the world's manipulation of itself, or perhaps the universe manipulating itself. And that is certainly. A natural occurrence boom in that. Is what happens when I off handedly say something is manmade, right? Nice. What's the guy's thing max, and I too. So it's gonna call. We dig you max. And we really dig anybody who sends us something, especially if it's intelligence that if you want to show off your genome brains innocent Email to stuff podcast how stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics. Visit how stuff works dot com. Hi, I'm Ariel Casten. I'm Jonathan Strickland and together we're going to tell you the stories behind some of the biggest triumphs and failures and business. That's right. We're going to explore situations that tested the metal entrepreneurs pivotal moments required making decisions. We'll be talking about some big companies that everybody knows like Disney LEGO and Harley Davidson and together we try to answer the question. Do you do when you find yourself at the brink? Listen and subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

lobotomy Dr Walter Freeman Howie Chuck USA Josh man Charles Bryant Dr monis apple Jack Nicholson Freemen Columbus Kennedy Iowa Howard Chuck Compton Portugal Twitter Harvard Long Beach Katie golden
S13: Halloween: Dr. Walter Freeman Pt. 2

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S13: Halloween: Dr. Walter Freeman Pt. 2

"Listener discretion is advised. This episode features discussions of murder medical malpractice and mental health conditions that may be upsetting. We advise extreme caution for listeners under thirteen. There's a certain promise of trust between the doctor and their patient. A medical professional is expected to have years of knowledge to back up their diagnosis and treatment. Of, course, if the treatment is an ice, pick to the brain, one would expect a natural hesitation from the patient. But when Dr Walter Freeman suggested it many patients and their families will eager to accept. Of. Course many of Freeman's patients did exhibits a particularly bizarre behavior after their first experience with his ice pick they asked for it again. This is medical murders a podcast original for decades thousands of medical students have taken the hippocratic oath. It boils down to do no but a closer look reveals a phrase much more interesting. I must not play God. However some doctors break. Choosing play God with their patients, deciding who lives and who dies. Each week on medical murders, we'll investigate those who decided to kill. We'll explore the specifics of how they operate not just on their patients, but within the own minds examining the psychology and urology behind heartless medical Kayla's. I'm Alistair murden and I'm joined by Dr David Kipah Md. Hi, everyone I'm Dr Kipper and I'm thrilled to be joining Alastair providing medical insight and information for our second episode of Walter Freeman. Clearly a controversial doctor but also a very important part of the story of treating mental health. You can find episodes of medical murders and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream medical murders for free on spotify open the APP and type medical murders in the search bar. This is our second episode on Dr Walter Freeman, an American urologist who developed the ice. Pick. lobotomy. Over the course of three decades Freeman personally victimized well over two thousand patients. He also trained other doctors to perform thousands more all while ignoring the inhumane effects, the procedure and the growing number of fatalities. Estimates vary, but at least four, hundred people died from complications after these lobotomies and hundreds more were left with cognitive ability of a child. Today. We'll look at freemen's reckless obsession with the to me as he travels across the US visiting hospitals with large numbers of mentally ill patients. We will also explore the tragic deaths from lobotomies, freemen's downfall and his final years spent seeking redemption. All this and more coming up stay with us. In one thousand, nine, hundred, forty, eight Maeve Ingo visited Dr Walter Freeman's private practice in Washington DC. It wasn't the first time in his office may have been there in nineteen, forty seven for a prefrontal lobotomy, with Dr, Freeman and his surgical partner. Dr James Watts. Wants reluctantly participated in freemen's early lobotomies, but he was never fully behind the procedure. He believed lobotomy was still an untested and reckless treatments at best at worst it could be fatal and Maeve Inga's case would prove him right. Mavis. First Botany had gone poorly while trying to seven the frontal Lobe Tissue Watson. Freeman had accidentally punctured apart of brain known as the ventricular. System. This was a serious mistake. The brain's ventricular system is made up of four connected ventricles or cavities filled with cerebrospinal fluid. The ventricles are located inside the brain. So if you can picture your concept report brain looks like they're right in the middle. There are two lateral ventricles, the big ones, and they're right in the middle, and there is a third ventricle that sits between them, and that leads through an aqueduct or a little canal to the fourth ventricle, which is closer to the bottom of the brain. When the veterans has punctured, the cerebrospinal fluid that is contained within leaks into the brain tissue. With this injury Freeman created on obstruction and maize ventricular system that prevented normal flow and absorption per cerebrospinal spinal fluid. This lead to fluid becoming trapped in certain regions, producing the symptoms of swollen ventricles, which include headaches, memory loss, an altered gate, and urinary incontinence. If Freeman truly understood her symptoms that surfaced after the first lobotomy. It's unclear from a medical perspective why he thought a second lobotomy would alleviate symptoms. Perhaps, he felt in an additional trauma to the ventricular system could somehow disperse fluid. On a more sinister level, maybe he just wanted to see what would happen. The doctor saw evidence of Mavis enlarged ventricles. But Freeman wasn't concerned with that. The also realized that the first lobotomy had miss suffering some of the usual. Frontal Lobe Tissue? Freeman was certain that a second lobotomy was the solution. They wouldn't miss again. Faced with the evidence and the support of Mavis family what's agreed to perform a second prefrontal lobotomy while Freeman instructed him. Unfortunately. They did nothing to address mavis newfound condition even if they'd caused it. Their mission was a successful lobotomy, not fixing enlarged ventricles. The day after the procedure was finished maeve went home. Though the second the Baltimore had successfully cut the frontal lobes. The fluid was still building up in her brain. Three weeks later. She was dead. Freeman was unmoved by Mavis death. He believed it was an unfortunate set of complications the Kilter, not the procedure. He refused to take any blame for the first lobotomy causing the deadly hydrocephalus. The facts that may've might have lived much longer if he never had a lobotomy was immaterial to freeman a longer life with a mental health condition was less important than risking that life for a cure. If anything May's death pushed him to focus on his new Transall Patil technique which he considered follow less invasive. But what's was growing suspicious as freeman perverted the original prefrontal lobotomy which they had performed in the same way as the surgery. By, Nineteen forty-eight Freeman had begun performing lobotomies by himself using ice picks to access patient skulls. What's it always believed that the surgical procedure was reckless but now he saw the freemen's new method was downright dangerous. What's essentially gave freemen an ultimatum either he stopped performing ice pick lobotomies in their office or what would leave the shed medical practice. Freeman was proud of his new procedure and he wasn't going to let anyone dictate what treatments he could and could not give patience not even a license neurosurgeon. Freemen refused to stop performing Trans Orbital lobotomies. By nineteen fifty, the Freeman Watts partnership was over. And Freeman seemed to think it was for the best now that he was free of what's hesitation and worry, he could finally bring lobotomy to the masses besides with his personal technique Freeman had made the lobotomy a relatively easy procedure possible to complete in under ten minutes. He could knock out patients with a portable electroshock machine. Then using too slender picks and a small hammer, he would tap the picks through the skull plates at the top of each orbital cavity. Once through the skull Freeman had direct access into the frontal lobes. After a few smooth rotations of the pics to sever the connective brain tissue, the procedure was finished. With. This new found efficiency Freeman could perform nearly two dozen lobotomies a day. He left his private practice for weeks at a time as he traveled across the country to state run hospitals in a single afternoon, he would literally lineup award of patients with mental health conditions and then walk down the line and lobotomize each one. Off To it, most of the patients could go home within the week even those who had been in hospitals for months or years. On One tour of West Virginia hospitals he performed two hundred and twenty eight lobotomies in twelve days nearly twenty a day. Freemen turn the lobotomies into performances for psychiatrists and nursing staff. Many of these medical professionals were in all of Freeman sometimes literally applauding as he tapped ice pigs through the patient's eyes sockets. And Freeman loved it. He drank up the attention often adding a little flan his procedures. In addition to using ice picks occasionally use a big wooden coppens has mallet instead of a surgeon hammer. If he'd been working with the Mallet in his right hand he switch hands procedure. Freeman had been a showman since his days in medical school, and now his audience was no longer students but other doctors. Freeman was finally gaining the professional attention he always sought. But he also wanted to be revered by the public. He began to notify the local newspapers before his arrival so that they could send a reporter to watch the lobotomies and interview him. Freeman was always sure to highlight the successes of lobotomy. He insisted patients were often able to go home within hours of their treatment even if they been in the hospital for months. He also spun his failures like Maeve Inga's fatal procedure into positive feedback. If the lobotomy didn't work. It was only because the patient was already too severely ill. If a patient died not long after the lobotomy, it was due to extenuating complications not freemen's picking their brain. Maeve sister had even thanked Freeman for taking a chance and performing the lobotomy that killed her. Though Freeman continued to gain positive press coverage. Not all doctors were convinced that lobotomy was a cure many were shocked at his reckless approach to what they still regarded as brain surgery. Freeman wasn't surgeon, but he was using lobotomy as a catchall treatment is revamped. icepick technique was also wildly unvetted and reckless. Today, a surgical procedure is only adopted S- medically and legally viable after going through five lengthy phases starting with an operations description and proof of feasability and ending with the data on long-term effects and outcomes because he's surgical innovations are dramatic and important. The vetting period for this does not take a long time, and usually this can be done in less than a year one contemporary surgical revamp it's been tested and now considered safe is the surgery to replace the mitral valve. This heart valve used to be replaced by cutting a patient's chest open. But now this damage valves can be accessed much less than basically through a blood vessel in the groin as a doctor, it's hard to imagine a time when Friedman's approach to lobotomy would be met with anything but Hor-. Freeman didn't care what other doctors said he was convinced his procedure was the best cure available. Freeman claimed lobotomy could treat any mental health condition including addiction, schizophrenia and depression. Even, though there was growing evidence that lobotomy rarely worked at all. In fact lobotomy was making some patients conditions even worse. Up next a new treatment threatens freemen's career. This episode is brought to you by bio life plasma surfaces. Now more than ever people want to know if there's anything they can do to help and the answer is yes. Bio. Life. Plasma services your plasma is desperately needed to create life changing medicines to help treat people with immune deficiencies. Those who are most risk right now and when you donate plasma bio life, you can earn up to six hundred dollars in your first month as a token of appreciation for your time. So please become a donor Baya life visit bio life plasma dot com to schedule an appointment. Now back to the story. In early nineteen, fifty, four freemen performed lobotomy on twenty, four year old will mirage as it was intended to aid her crippling depression. But a few months later, she wrote to, Freeman. Saying she felt like a spectator watching a never ending scene of human life which I prohibited from. EPA participating in it seems so unfair fry tried so hard to be cured. Wilma requested a second lobotomy and Freeman agreed he even helped to pay for her ticket from New York. City. To his office at George Washington University. Freeman always tried to help his patients after all but keeping Wilma from writing about have failed lobotomy was a perk to. Freeman. Firmly believed that if the first lobotomy hadn't alleviated Wilma symptoms a second one would. Unfortunately he was wrong. The. Second lobotomy with a year left Wilma even more desperate for relief from the darkness she's still felt. She tried to other treatments with other doctors but nothing worked. She wrote to Freeman begging him to perform yet another lobotomy to try and cure her but this time freeman apparently refused. Freeman was skilled at cultivating his reputation and he'd staked his career on the procedure as a cure-all. Having a patient who required a third lobotomy wouldn't look good. It might suggest the treatment didn't work like he had an Rosemary Kennedy's tragic case. Freeman. Couldn't consent himself with patients who didn't respond to the treatment. Even when Freeman learned that Wilma died by suicide just over a year later, all he could muster was a cold clinical response saying it was regrettable that the treatments I administered was not effective in preventing her from killing herself A. Besides he had plenty of other patients writing him joyful letters. Freeman decided to focus on those. They were a comforting reminder of his achievements. In fact, freeman maintained correspondence with many patients and their families. The letters were also a convenient defense when Freeman success was called into question. At a medical conference in the early nineteen, fifties Freeman was speaking to a crowd of doctors whose response to lobotomy ranged from skeptical to vehemently opposed. To silence the grumbling in his audience, he pulled out a box filled to the brim with Christmas cards. He asked the doctors, how many of them received Christmas cards from their patients every year The grumbling quieted. And Freeman considered the matter settled. But, around that same time, a huge obstacle was emerging that threatened. Freeman's career. It was a tiny hill. The drug was cold claw promising and it had massive implications for treating mental health conditions. Developed in the fifties and regarded as the first antipsychotic drug chlorpromazine also branded is thorazine is to this day considered one of the greatest milestones in the history of psychiatry and pharmacology. Clark promising is commonly used to treat mental health conditions like schizophrenia and bipolar disorders. This medication works by blocking dopamine receptors in the brain thus preventing the excess dopamine production responsible for these psychosis and mood disorders. Some medical student and my older brother had just graduated medical school and we were on my way on our way to my assets, for Thanksgiving dinner and I had the hiccups. And my brother knew that this was a treatment for hiccup. So he gave a thorazine. And I slept for a day and a half I have no memory of that Thanksgiving dinner or the people that were there. So that was my relationship to chlorpromazine. Patients who benefit from chlorpromazine describe a clear thought process and a mark improvement in anxiety and hallucinations. This represented a monumental transition from psycho surgery to psychopharmacology. As a chemical lobotomy chlorpromazine as a pill has no surgical intervention to the brain. Therefore, we would not see the long term effects that we did with conventional lobotomies. chlorpromazine ushered in a new era of mental health treatments. lobotomy was no longer the premium cure which meant freeman was no longer the premier doctor. With physicians turning to Clo- promising in place if lobotomy freemen's vast river of potential patients was drying up. So he expanded his criteria to include a new type of patient. Children. By the end of the nineteen fifties lobotomy was no longer considered. The Miracle Cure Dr Walter. Freeman once touted. In pharmaceuticals meant that many mental health conditions could now be addressed with simple pills. Fewer patients needed a surgical pick and search through the orbital cavity which meant fewer patients needed Dr Walter Freeman. But that was something he was unwilling to accept. He was still convinced lobotomy was the best treatment available and he was the best doctor to provide them. With the introduction of chlorpromazine, the era of pharmacy prescriptions was already underway although Freeman still solar botany as the quickest one time procedure to fix patients symptoms very few state hospitals invited him to their wards anymore. By nineteen sixty, Freeman had moved to Sunnyvale California to avoid the growing scrutiny his procedure face on the east coast. But this hardly seemed to dampen his spirits Freeman simply believe he was still the loan expert on lobotomies. So when Howard dully stepmother came to his office for a consultation Freeman was eager to provide his treatment. His stepmother said that young how it was defiant daydreams and even objected to going to bed. Even, though how it was only twelve years old freeman saw how these alleged symptoms might fit the criteria of a mental health condition. This qualified. Howard. For lobotomy. Which Freeman was happy to provide. While Freeman officially diagnosed Howard dully schizophrenia, it seems overwhelmingly clear that he was acting like a typical twelve year old boy I'm sure we can all say from personal experience that a twelve year old acting out isn't the most shocking thing in the world lobotomy Freeman performed on Howard however did take away any chance is brain had developing normally. As he grew older Howard displayed many behaviors stick could be interpreted as side effects lobotomy including a self-described lack of judgment and an inability to focus, and clearly this all goes back to the severed connections in his prefrontal CORTEX. While how it may have kept much of his mental acuity and personality as he grew up, he says, he always felt that something was taken from him. Freeman performed bottom on nearly twenty of children over the years including one as young as four years old. Many of them didn't come out of their lobotomies quote unquote cured. One of them, a child in middle school even died soon after his lobotomy possibly from a seven blood vessel Freeman might have nicked during the procedure. But. Since Freeman rarely investigated patients negative reactions to lobotomy. There was little proof of why the boy died. So Freeman was off the hook. But regardless of mounting evidence to the contrary Freeman still maintained that the side effects of lobotomy were a small price to pay to cure mental ailments. But by the mid sixty s the medical community and the public firmly disagreed. Many of Freeman's lobotomy patients were now five ten or even fifteen years post. Operation Freeman claims many were leading so-called productive lives. He had the letters to prove it. But the first long term studies of lobotomy patients where revealing that productive often meant little more than successfully staying alive. Since the early one, thousand, nine, hundred fifties Freeman had a post op questionnaire he called a life chart. It tracked different abilities in patients who had been legitimized. But freemen's ego left him unable to see his patients as people they were only cases to be cured. He told the media his goal was to have patients return to a productive life but the chart revealed the definition was relatively easy to meet the patient simply had to be able to do menial. Labor. A woman whose mother had been lobotomize by Freeman in nineteen fifty five wrote that her mother's life was a daily routine of handwork a few household chores eating the three meals and snacks in between and going to bed pretty early. Leila may who freeman the bottom is prior to nineteen fifty seven was doing well according to her husband's standard. He told Freeman that Leela did a very acceptable job in the preparation of meals and the children's lunches for school which cannot be measured in dollars and sense. For, most of Freemans, the bus me patients this basic and boring standard of living was in fact, the standard. Most lobotomy patients were able to manage simple routines and chores but little else that required critical thinking or emotional perception. The damaged their brains left them with other long term side effects that affected certain basic bodily functions like the ability to to control your urine or wait. When the body wants us to eat the gut sense hormones and cytokines to the hypothetical news located in the LIMBIC system, an area of the brain responsible for the autonomous conquer response, which should really be called the automatic response because it's reflexive and involuntary. The limbic system then delivers this response signal to the prefrontal CORTEX, a region of the brain that gives us the desire and motivation to eat. Damaging. The part of the brain responsible for the reward and motivational aspects of eating along with the area that controls the body's natural hunger response. We loses reflexes a control, our appetite in a sense. These procedures turn many patients into human machines that were seriously on calibrated functioning only on a very basic level and poorly at best. To most doctors in the nineteen sixties, freemen's is pick to the brain cure seemed Bob Barrick in comparison to more modern treatments many PAS supporters of lobotomy. Now spoke out against it the American Medical Association which had once Honored Freeman for developing the procedure even wrote it is inconceivable that any procedure that effectively destroys the brain could possibly restore the patient to a normal state. But Freeman didn't care what anyone else but his patients and their families thought and many was still writing him letters of gratitude. So he kept seeing new patients and performing lobotomies. Freeman had always said that if a patient could hold down a basic job or do household chores. Lobotomy, it was considered a success even if their cognitive abilities were significantly diminished after the procedure. Though patients, emotions often erased freeman told families that their loved ones were better off than with the terrible symptoms of mental health conditions. He also assured them that a lobotomy allowed patients to be at home instead of in an undefended state hospital. But if someone's mother brother or daughter could find similar relief by taking a pill at home. Y subject them to a lobotomy. It was a question Freeman couldn't answer. And it shook him deeply. For over fifteen. Freeman had been at the top of his field, but now the field was turning on him. He had few defenders in the medical community, his old partner neurosurgeon Jane's walls shied away from discussing his history with freemen. Dr. ACOSS. Monet's the Portuguese. Who had developed the initial luke ultimate procedure and won a Nobel prize for it had died in nineteen, fifty five. Several former patients had died or committed suicide while others were left debilitated. The shine of lobotomy was now a dark cloud hanging over freeman his fame had become infamy. Without his reputation Freeman likely felt like he had nothing. His family life was far from perfect. He'd had numerous affairs and his wife suffered from alcoholism. His name was synonymous with the treatment other doctors regarded as cruel and unnecessary. But Freeman needed to be necessary. So he kept doing what he did best lobotomies. To maintain his inflated sense of accomplishment, he was willing to take a few risks with patients lives. Until the procedure he'd made famous finally cost him everything. Up Next Freeman kills his final patient now back to the story. In nineteen, Sixty, seven, a housewife named Helen Mortensen returned to Freemen's office for her third lobotomy. She had been one of the first ten patients to receive a trans orbital botany in nineteen, forty six. After. A relapse of symptoms in Nineteen fifty-six Freeman had done another. Now over ten years later, she was requesting a third. Unlike will rogers case years before now, Freeman apparently wanted to do as many lobotomies as possible after all, there weren't so many opportunities to use his skills anymore he agreed to perform another procedure on Helen. Her third lobotomy was supposed to be just like the others. But this time. Something went terribly wrong. Using. His icepick Freeman created a plead, which immediately depleted the oxygen levels in Helen Sprain ultimately killing her if helen had undergone her procedure by a qualified neurosurgeon and a blood vessel was net or cut. Fat Blood vessel would have been clipped immediately and the blood vessel would have been restored to its normal functioning and she would most likely survived. A neurosurgeon clearly understands the anatomy of the blood vessels in the brain. So when they're doing their operations, they have an idea of what they're about to find and when they come to blood vessels, they are, of course, particularly careful. If for some reason, one of these blood vessels is knit or punctured. They have all the tools necessary to repair that vessel right at the time Freeman on the other hand was going after blood vessels without any visual input and could not have understand what tissues he was cutting. Helen's death was the loss draw for the medical community. Freeman was no longer allowed to operate on patients. His office was permanently closed. Helen's botched lobotomy was the end of Walter Freeman's career. Could. It wasn't the end of well to Freeman? In early, one, thousand, nine, hundred, Sixty, eight, seventy, two year old Dr Walter Freeman set out on a cross country road trip. He was no longer practicing medicine, but he was still seeking patients. FREEMEN's legacy was on the line and he wanted to revisit his patients to collect evidence that lobotomy worked. But Freeman discovered he was more notorious than famous. The treatment he had championed for over three decades was now considered a medical mistake. or a tool for murder. FREEMEN's once revered procedure was now derided in the medical community and he was viewed as a reckless doctor from a bygone era interestingly however, the legacy of lobotomy has led to some pretty important advances in the treatment of mental illness. For instance, the Horse of this procedure ultimately lead to a deeper conversation add exploration into the origins of treatments in mental health leading to an understanding of the causative relationship between Brain Chemistry and psychiatric problems. This knowledge has provoked the rise of contemporary targeted psycho pharmacologic treatments for mental health disorders, virtually eliminating the need for most cycle surgeries altogether. It's unlikely. Freeman found what he was looking for in his field trips across the country. He traveled over seven thousand miles in the spring of nineteen, sixty, eight visiting patients and hospitals. But he found that the correspondence he believed was proof of his success was little more than a pastime for his patients. He saw the lives they will leading. SIMPLE REPETITIVE And devoid of meaning. Much like his own. As he done his entire career. He resolved himself to see the results he was looking for even if it meant ignoring evidence to the contrary. In his journal Freeman said. I'm like any other hunter that gets on the trail of something he loses sense of time and distance. It's such an absorbing preoccupation that may physical matters don't halter person in his pursuit. By nineteen seventy lobotomy was illegal in many countries around the world including Germany Japan and the Soviet Union. Though there were a few parts of the world where his notorious treatment was allowed. Freeman still continued his hunt for glory at home. He reversed the United States. Revisiting lobotomize patients years after that procedures and interviewing them. He was seeking a wide enough sample of positive testimonies to justify his glorification of lobotomy. Unfortunately, he never found them. FREEMEN's attempt to prove the worth of his career was cut short by a cancer diagnosis. In, early nineteen, seventy-two, he underwent surgery for cancer. It didn't work and the operation. Let's fatal complications. Dr. Walter. Freeman died on May thirty first nineteen, seventy two, just two years after performing his final lobotomy. Often, causing the deaths of so many he never faced justice. And though he had traveled to seek out many of his surviving former patients most never heard from him again. Including Howard dully. Twelve years old when Freeman operated on his brain. After Freeman's death Howard discovered that his stepmother had possibly gone to several doctors before Freeman. The other doctors said there was nothing wrong with him and that he was a normal boy. But Freeman had been willing to lobotomize him anyway. Howard spent years getting his life together but feeling like you never quite managed to do so. He said. I'll never know what I lost in those ten minutes, Dr Freeman and his ice pick by some miracle. It didn't turn me into a Zombie crush my spirit or kill me. But. Volta Freemen's operation was supposed to relieve suffering. In my case, it did just the opposite. Ever since my lobotomy. I felt like a freak. Ashamed. All to Freeman convinced, he would influence the fields of neurology and psychiatry forever. In a twist of fate he was laundly correct. Three years after. Freeman. died the lobotomy was immortalized in celluloid. In the film one flew over the CUCKOO's nest based on the nineteen, sixty, two novel by Ken, Casey Jack Nicholson's character is tragically forced to undergo the procedure. The film became the cultural touchstone for Lobotomy, a brutal shorthand for psychiatry and mental health that left the public scared. then. A decade after his death. A strange medical case provided a twisted conclusion to Walter freemen's lifelong assertion that lobotomy was a cure. In nineteen eighty, three, a young man with obsessive compulsive disorder survived a terrible head wound. But then discovered he was free from old has symptoms. The doctors treating him said, his injury had been somewhat similar to a lobotomy. One difference was that the young man had put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. The horrific effects of lobotomy created a dark reputation for psychiatric surgery for decades the procedure became so archaic the by the Nineteen Ninety s many doctors nurses went their entire careers without encountering lobotomize patient. But even if they did the massive damage to the brain caused by lobotomy was frequently unfathomable to modern medical workers. In the Mid Nineteen Ninety S Dr Gary Cordingley worked at a hospital near Ohio. Keeping cooled into consultant a patient after a radiologist had taken a cat scan that showed extensive abnormalities in the patient's brain. The radiologist told Dr Accordingly that the patient had likely had a series of massive strokes. But. When Cordingley investigated the patient's medical history, he discovered that they will one of Dr Freemen's Bouma patients. Accordingly realized that the vast stroke like damage to the patient's brain had been done on purpose. He was seeing the physical results of a thirty year old lobotomy. Over forty thousand, the bottom bottomley's were done on Americans in the forties and fifties not to mention the numerous procedures performed around the world. This was a time when our understanding of the brain was onic and profoundly. Like many other areas in medicine Today however, with modern CT, an MRI imaging, a lobotomy simply looks like brain trauma. These scans consistently demonstrates symmetrical cavernous lesions in the white matter of the brain's frontal lobe trauma to the limbic system and bone changes were the instruments entered the skull. In essence freemen's cure looks exactly like what it was intentional brain damage. Dr. Walter Freeman believed he had discovered a miracle cure in lobotomy instead he inflicted serious brain damage on thousands of patients over the course of three decades. FREEMEN's need for relevance and fame inflated his Ego and blinded him to the Barrick. Truth. Lobotomy was a dangerous procedure that either erased patients entire sense of self. Or. Killed Them. Thanks for listening to medical murders and thanks again to Dr Kipah for joining me today. Thanks for having me. For, more information on wall to Freeman among the many sources we used. We found the PBS American experience documentary, the lobotomize extremely helpful to our research. You can find all of medical murders and all other podcast originals for free on spotify not only to spotify already have all of your favorite music. But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like medical murders for free from your phone desktop all small speaker. To stream medical murders on spotify, just open the APP and type medical murders in this search PA. We'll see you next time. Medical Motors was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max. Cutler. Sound designed by Trent Williamson with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Collie Madden Cristiano Salvato Jonathan Cohen Jonathan Ratliff and Bruce. Kovic. This episode of Medical Murders was written by Andrew Messer. With writing assistance by Maggie Admire and stars, David Kipa and Alistair Murdoch.

Dr. Walter Freeman lobotomy Freeman Watts Walter freemen Medical Murders United States Dr James Watts Maeve Inga spotify murder maeve private practice partner Dr Kipper Dr David Kipah Md Wilma Kayla Alistair murden
3: A fresh start for Caleb Ewan and a reboot for Bob Jungels

The Cycling Podcast

1:02:58 hr | 2 years ago

3: A fresh start for Caleb Ewan and a reboot for Bob Jungels

"The cycling podcast in association with Rafeh. From grand tours to group rides. The Shawn's Elise. Eliza to coffee shops Rafeh exists to celebrate the world's most beautiful sports. Hello. My name's Richard were I'm with Lionel burning. Hello, Richard Daniel Frey. Hello. Hello fallacy. Yeah. We did that loss. We lost week young wish year to Lionel. So go ahead. Happy new year. Daniel happy Hogmanay lovely that last week. Probably went we revisit that topic. Now, we've done that. I was looking thinking Alicia data, and we we've lost ninety percent of Scottish listeners after last week. Well, I'm hoping you've come back from de Kooning with on Allie haulage interview Lionel to try and win them back. Unfortunately, not because he he wasn't there. He was already on his way to Argentina for his. I think he's he was in Scotland for Hopman wasn't a so ALI'S army perfect opportunity to play Aaliyah's tartan army than nineteen Seventy-eight Scotland World Cup fame. Of course that World Cup was played in. Argentina is absolutely perfect might try and secure the rights to them for next time. Wins rice valley, hold. You wouldn't even have been born. When the World Cup was in Argentina. But anyway, we're not we Jimmy Johnson. We didn't mention him loss. We used to talk about him, anyway, go and carry on count cycling size. Well, Lionel viable you're back from decoding you weren't happy with our pronunciation of decoding class week. But you like to put more. More curbing, Kern curling gather, the conning kind of sounds like the Jerry sounds like a verb. The Jaren of meaning something like I didn't know when a third world economy has a rush on when the rush on gold prices or something. Did you come back? Having negotiate any kind of bonus for us every time we mentioned the Kooning. No. But my new windows are lovely. On no. Excellent. Well, you're gonna tell us a bit more of your time with dick eunuch in laser naps. I think in the final part of the episodes in at part two I'm getting confused. But which part is what I think you've got some. Unsee with Caleb Ewan Daniel from training come that. You're out lots of Saddam before Christmas. He oversees an action in Australia at the moment of to done under. And but before any of that, Lionel do have new please. I during D, Richard. Yes, good. You mentioned Caleb urine because he won the people's choice. Classic the curtain raiser criteria to the tour down under the weekend. His first race. And I win for lotto Seattle after moving from Mitcham Scott off the Mark. But not off the Mark in the world taught yet as we speak the tour down under got underway. Couple of nights ago Elliott via ni of tacona quickstep won the first stage his first world to race of the year. I victory in wotour Acer the his lost race of last year was the final stage of the welter in Madrid which he also won. So literally picking up where he left off and that we speak the second stage of the tour down under also being held. New Zealand time tro champion, Patrick Bevan, one to give CCC their first victory in their new orange jerseys or the jerseys is the same as they were when they were CCC before. Of course, the team no longer BMC racing. Of course. So he he will be swapping. They are Inge CCC jersey for slightly darker okra, orange jersey as leader of the tour down under the race continues until the weekend the women's tour down under has over. He concluded Amanda Spratt one stage and clinch the overall their Australian right at one three of the four stages with grace Brown and Chloe Hosking also taking victories at first clarification corner or corrections corner of the year last week, we talked about the quite remarkable story of the ninety year old call grove who was US masters champion on the track in the ninety two ninety four year age group before testing positive just to clarify it. He was we were talking about why would resort got into. A write up who was the only competitor in his category should've clarified that the reason he was tested was because he'd set a world record time for the age group. Not just because he'd beaten nobody in the racist. Bit more doping news, unfortunately, Yanni Brockovich as being banned for ten months after testing positive for methyl Santa Annemie, the UCLA accepted that substance within a contaminated sub supplement that he taken hence the short ban. The thirty five year olds lenient road for Discovery Channel, Astana radio shack, embar Morita it. Biggest win was two thousand and ten and last year he was writing for the Slovenian Adria mobile team, which is the same team started his career with the reason I'm mentioning this because he wrote quite powerful blog on his website explaining the circumstances or explaining how he sees led to this positive test. And in it, he talks about having been bullied during his career feeling that you didn't fifteen feeling. He was on the go the rough end of the stick because he wasn't prepared to dump as much as others is the implication. The I'm reading into that. He also said during the till June the tour during one tool he was choked by teammate told he was zero nobody worthless quite a powerful and troubling blog really if anyone wanted to check that out on Yanni Brockovich, she's website. Bit more doping news in a white confirmation that the ban on the painkiller Trento will come into effect on March first we had long -ticipant to this. But the UCI have confirmed that Marcia I that's the last. Well, that's the first day that Trump will be on the banned list. And finally, the former teams guy and British cycling. Dr Richard Freeman faces a medical misconduct trial in Manchester early next month, some of the pre hearing reports of being posted on the general medical council website regarding the hearing, Dr Freeman is alleged to have ordered thirty show. Thirty sachets of testosterone put a coup Tesco jail from a company called fit for sport. Ltd the product delivered to Manchester velodrome in may twenty eleven in October of that year. Dr Freeman is alleged to have written to fit for sport requesting that they send him an Email confirming the order had been sent in the allegation is Freeman knew this to be forced the other key allegation is the product would intended for an athlete now the tribunal will oversee test of this evidence in a hearing that could lost as much as a month. The decision should be published twenty eight days after that. So we should be a little bit clearer on this story by what light March, I guess. But really troubling these allegations also stock, and of course, now there are no grey areas when it comes to a substance like testosterone or that. There are no no this is a dark shadow 'em looming on the. Very troubling. Indeed. I mean, there is you can't doping investigation into all gone on partic- team sky involving Dr Freeman on it didn't get to the bottom of some of the stuff and already in the published by while the allegations of the published and will which will be investigated doing the hearing they go farther than you county doping. We're able to go, and so I, you know, very very troubling. Indeed. And as you say, Lionel, no gray area Thole testosterone is cheating on if they're able to prove that it was intended for athlete, well while who was intended for and you know, what what are the implications of this for British cycling team sky. I agree rich. This is probably the most troubling whiles sort of shadow of of allegation of the allegations. And second. Secombe social evidence been sort of collected about teams going loss three or four years. Some of the stories and rumors and. Actions of amounted to nothing, really. But this is a very worrying one, particularly when one considers the timing two thousand eleven spring of two thousand eleven so before well before Bradley Wiggins second tilts toward France in the same spring few weeks before the contentious jiffy bag was delivered to the dolphin and allegedly deliver to the definite also a year when get Landes, the Belgian doctor who of courses at the center of the noise about team sky that was when he was probably he's if he was influential at all times, it was it was then and not season he had just on the detail as being released pre prior to that hearing. I mean, the things that leap out to me all accompany fit for sport supplying a testosterone product anyway and. The idea of sending anything of that nature clearly band to Manchester, velodrome home, British cycling, and if that was an error that was a significant error. It's a case the medical professionals will certainly want to get to the bottom of I actually had a look at the fit for sport website. And I mean, you can't search amongst the products. They do have testimonies from various sports teams football clubs cricket clubs, and so on providing plenty of, you know, perfectly normal sporting equipment and and medications, but yet a company that is supplying that kind of stuff. Also in a position to supply, a banned substance testosterone is well it's puzzling to say the very least. A community around the world stories and films with the most compelling characters. The world's finest apparel. Explore the world of cycling with Rafeh. Frank very much to Arriva are headline sponsor of the cycling podcast there. The kit that we mentioned last week for education. I was unveiled at the weekend. Very fetching I'll colors not my strong pump colorblind can I can tell pink and blue. But this is purply fade into blue and pink. Without be correct. Yes, let's suppose, so Richard. Yeah. I'm not very good on blue and stuff. But it certainly certainly eye-catching, isn't it. It is. Yeah. I mean, kind of tie effect, I guess or a bit like those those thermonuclear t shirts, whatever could hyper color, t shirts that were popular. That's the eighties used to change color with heat, basically body temperature so give model the effect. But no, it's certainly striking. It was stand out in the peleton. What? What what did you call us things? What do you call those things which we're like a picture like usually a beach scene or some kind of tropical landscape made from sand in gloss frame. What are those things called San frames? You mean, but see where you're going with this kind of remind. Reminding me. Well, as well as supplying the kits raff are also making buying the scenes films with education I and well couple of gone gone live one is gone live just as speaking a chance to watch yet. But the second episode of gone racing is now that focus on Lachlan more. And and yeah, have have a look if he gone Raph dot CC, you'll find links to that or on Rafeh Twitter feed or other social media feeds belonging to Rafeh. So check out. And I mean, I forgot surprise at your news roundup wine old, but we have to mention this Donald crikey. Don't we? Blue. We do. Speaking of teams doing things are I ching and ear catching I was special. How many how many folks stocks before you actually, go all the way through the whole thing without your face, Scott? I watched the old with viruses, the whole thing. It was great. Yeah. No. As the podcast resident hip hop aficionado. I found the right tough world. Yeah. I I had the very very very strong impression. Laura's DeVries was was behind. It was very much. The funny thing is he's the most my unquiet guy in, you know, quite quite a why go to me as though he? Yeah. It looked to me as though he felt his whole life had been building tapering to this magnificient point where he was going to stunt for. I love the bits in the hotel corridor with the Yacob fool scien- what like shopping trolley. Almost like they they cannot figure sayings in mid I. Rings around the necks redundant of the beastie boys with their stolen VW car badges from from the that was that was the thing. But then I can say just accidentally of ice. Oh, no, please. Strolling around the trendy Apollo of London with us the fifty six or fifty eight tooth chain ring on on on a chain round their neck. I'd probably I'd probably go for thirty two. You know, I'm not quite as capable as they used to be. I was also fascinated to discover this place called Palestine and a rapper snoop. Doggy Dogg people may not be aware. What we talking about? You can to get on YouTube and search for a Steiner rap, but it caused a sensation on social media, which obviously is the point just to just just to fulfill our contractual obligations, if you check out the the Rafeh gone racing film before you look son around would be it'd be very helpful. Thank you. Anyway. Moving on the racing has started died under and Caleb you and I I think for his new team of pseudo golf the flyer, but we've seen two stages of Twitter and under as well on I'm gone to you you mentioned there Lionel the piney Bevan's New Zealand time-trial champion because one of our listeners wasn't very happy didn't run through the New Zealand national last week. Enjoying that. We don't we badly. Mention any of the national champions do because we're previewing the two of the frowns. It's just the way the cookie crumbles can't do everything no on everything. But anyway, I'm what what has marked all three of these races. So far frustrated that under and the and the the carton razor criterion. Adelaide are crashes been a law of big crashes done if you've noticed Nathan Haas at theory, but he was he reckoned the heat was partly sa- blame the m the brakes aren't staying away. And and the writers are coming to finish quite fresh waiting for the sprint. He says issue in part is in the heat. Our final effort is like a firework with no fuse and more people are fresh, which increases the risk his opinion. But big big crashes and in all stages so far. Well, we had in major tools that we often the I I saw the most dangerous. Because of that freshness. Eagerness in us BOS the star of the racing season starts even exessive especially by the fact that it's worked oration has been for a few years. Now, I know, but you know, the stakes are increasingly getting higher. Everyone wants to get off to a fantastic start. I win is the hardest to get as they say unless you're curling quickstart in which case it just comes along as a matter. Of course, it seems. But yeah, I mean, the the toy down undone I'm not going to fall into the trap of saying it's the preseason set friendly of the season because clearly from from watching the way that Patrick Beveren pulled off that win for CCC in. This is this is now an absolutely top level race being contested by everybody just as much as the grand tools will most and Vivian looked extremely shy. Sharp in winning sage one of the two hundred under. He's he's a track racing over the winter as well. So you know, he looked like he was he was race fit. And ready to go Caleb. Ewan looked good on the first night on you. Daniel met him recently big change for him moving for major than Scott to at Loftus Sodano from a string team to a Belgian team can you? Well, how did you find him? He seemed pretty relaxed form rich interesting was can be an interesting experience for him to read lotto and the Belgian team very much Belgian team unions gone in there, not taking a big entourage with him. Adam bly has come on board released as lead out man for Caleb in, but it was interesting to observe just some of the groups that formed at the training camp training camps being held at the roughing it Dow center in Monaco in my orca. Rafeh was was around. Surely, I didn't seem guess healthy. But yeah, he was on the premises. But yeah, I didn't notice that. I'm a few called schools had broken out among the being played by the Belgium, Reuters. Whereas the speaking rod as well Colombian unemployed spent more time on their phones than if that's indicative of cultural coach difference, but I all accounts unit a pretty easy guy to get on with ah don't expect this to be too many problems that as far as his integration is concerned. One slight issue that he might have. And we actually spoke about the training camp in Monaco was that he's having to change his coach this year as a result of his move to lotto pseudo and previously. He's been working with the gentleman called Kevin Poulton from the New South Wales while previously what's New South Wales institute of spa. Mean the guy who who masterminded hayman's predominantly swift the base training before the two thousand sixteen pie ruby which he subsequently won. Anyway, you in has been working with Kevin Poulton. He will no longer be this year and is put a bit about that on the coming season for. Yeah. I think honesty's he's a great coach. But also think you have to be a certain type of ride to benefit from each training trying super hot and super specific. So if you're not one hundred percent committed in one hundred of the program, then it's going to be hot came to get the benefit out of you. So yeah, be interesting to see how how the guys from coaching from coaching. But for me, personally, it's being not great because I've worked probably lost three years building relationship with him. Now, I'm changing team. So. That's already a lot of change then trying to change coach at the same time is is not ideal. But it's what happens, and I think I'm actually pretty easy to to adjust as things like that, sir. Yeah. That'd be fine. And you say training super hard in terms of just being relentless all the chill, the the rois themselves and the excise themselves just superintendents both. He's pretty relentless. And also that factual training days can be super hod. Yeah. Yeah. It's I think he was also coach of aqua blue law. Shia. So that he hurt some of the guys there and probably some of them couldn't really handle it. And you could probably see and performance. It never really got better or anything. So. Yeah. I think he's a great coach if you can really handle handle what he's giving you. So how are you going to replace him? Well, we have a great coach on the team that. Yeah. Does most of the he's doing the training camp now? And and. Yeah. And he's he's doing all the programs here. So it'd be good to talk to him and discuss trainee a little bit in see. We'll we'll work well together. How the wise. Yeah. I'll just have to find another coach. Fairly clear ideas on to what you need to work on wall of direction. You wanna developing this year's from a physiological point of view. Yeah. I think maybe probably my strength a little bit. But that's just kind of always coming with age. Probably need to work on my sprints a little bit more. I think I've gotten maybe a little bit slow in the live. It's slow. But maybe I haven't kept increasing. I should've so increasing he'd so I just need to. Yeah. Focus back more on sprinting when I was with my old coach who is really a lot about insurance. I feel like maybe I lost a little bit of speed. But now, I think yeah, I'll focus back more on sprinting in. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm good at it. And that's where I need to be good at to win races. So for more on that in I can win some more aces. One thing obviously increases right is insurance is doing major tools. You haven't done one for a couple of years you finished one. Yeah. Could be a bit of an advantage as well. Though in the maybe you haven't insurance, but you've also kept some speed. Maybe some guys lose when they do to Gruntal here. Possibly. Yeah. I think saying before that the training that I've been doing with capital is. Spotty hard. So I feel like. The insurance that I've done actually so far as it's almost like grandma. I mean fifteen sages that year when I did it. The year ago. So I mean, the difference was Wayne finishing fifteen sages finished. So I don't know what the difference is. But I can't imagine. It's like a ridiculous difference in your overall performance. So yeah, I think this year I'll try to. I think if I'm feeling good. I can try to do geo but having that could really change their their audio. Make you make you a lot stronger. But yeah, it'd be important to. Yeah. As you say keep the speed those well. And just finding this time last year. Mitchell's put out a press release to say, you were going to do the Toda FRANZ probably a mistake from your point of view that point of view but looking back on that year. Now, do you look upon it as a wasted year or year where you took important lessons away? Performance wise. I think it was a wasted year for sure I learned to lots I guess I learned a lot as a person about. Probably the first time really is a cyclist that I've had to really deal with a really big disappointment. And try to come back from that. And I think I did pretty well. I came back in I think it would have been easy for me to really. Be pissed at the team and not do well or not try to any of the races. But yeah, I mean at the end of the day, it's my career, and I always want to do. Well. So it's it was a good lesson in that sense. But I think as a. Performance wise. It was definitely a wasted year too. Few racing days, basically. Yeah. Too few. And I think I mean, I don't think that bad of Iraq that I don't deserve it grant who was spot in any of the grants. Who is so. Yeah, I think in the end it was the team. Stuffing me over. But. Yeah, I mean. At the end of the day. I think they also lost results by doing it. And it's a pity for them as well. And. The causes sponsoring. I think the people lower down in management made made decisions they shouldn't have made. And that's that's just sports in the end. I guess and done now. And now in a team where they're so flexible with my race program, and they really want to give me a little cheese that that I want. So it's it's nice being now don't environment like that. Cost team car. The back of the pack flees PK, they reminded me to tell you this episode is sponsored by the economist, the calmest, of course, is by far more than economics and finance. It covers a range of subjects from world, politics and business to science technology arts environment. And even sport helps you prepare for what's going on in the world around them and sift through the noise focusing on the essential information that tells the real story at the time when facts matter more than ever they trusted source of intelligence for over one hundred seventy years for the kind of person who never stops asking questions, I want to know why the world is the way is you can get free copy of the communists. If you listen to the cycling podcast by texting the word cycling. Let's see why C L I N G two seventy seven oh, not shot to spell cycling there on the cycling podcast. But I did at Lionel you've been reading. The economist any articles catch your eye this week. Well, yes, rich, you mentioned people are always asking questions whenever on the tour de France, but driving around Frenchtown and cities, and we see the street names off an off game Francois. Why why so many French towns have names roads named after the same sort of dozen or so historical figures? I mean, every town seemed to have a plastic shelter goal or an avenue, Victor, Hugo or Roo, Louis pastor or rougeau s and the story that crew fronts while Thomas. No, quite there might be wanting Maasai, maybe we should name a street after Francois take our own homemade plaque and stick it up on a on a street somewhere because this is actually what has been happening in France. There's a push tonight more European streets off to women and in front a Persian group of being unofficially renaming roads. So there now he's up a own say boulevard, but it's a serious point this because. Most of those roads and streets are named after historical figures are named after men and in Paris thirty one percent of streets named off demand. And just two point six percent named after women and in Brussels been trying to redress the balance a little bit. They were twenty eight new street names required a new policy, and none of them have been named after individual men. So they've been balancing up trying to balance a little bit my favorite because I read this articles. Well is the one St. is being called. This is not a St. a an Omar's to the Belgian surrealist artists ready migrate. Like, maybe. We'll visit the this is not a St. when we when we go to Brussels for this Tertre fronts. It could be the first corrections corner. We could say yes, it is. Yes, it is. Phonetically is a street well for your free print copy of economists just text cycling to seventy seven, oh, that's cycling to seventy seven or we'll kill Abune. They're quite and quite Frank by you know, missing or the prospect of not working with his coach, Kevin pelton. Am what's happened to him? Daniel Kevin Poulton rich will be working for another well team in two thousand nineteen ninety he'll be working for one of Union's main rivals and one of the guys who's going to be among his main rivals in the sprints. Do you know who eats will yet because this is all setup, isn't it? Yeah. Kind carry off. When it's burns nine. So can we saw in the dropbox folder? So I know I know we're going to hear from him. Now. Well, he's gonna be working as a coach for moss. L Kissel cotija out percent in two thousand eighteen but let's hear from Kevin Poulsen because just a couple of days before I spoke to Calabrian admit Kevin Poulton on the also New York Marciel is doing everything ROY he's the consummate professional account fall to meddle in terms of what we're doing. Now, it really is doing the by seeks and doing them properly doing the will. I guess what I bring to the relationship eary's monitoring, the fatigue were building up and nine winter rest, and so on and there's also I guess there are few secrets for coaching sprinters in terms of how to kit that legs played and assigned, Tom. So because in your to put to put muscle and for someone with his experience and the now to be our to input a new stimulus, and you stress on the body. He's got room to improve which is. Pretty exciting talking to somebody the sprinter couple of days ago bore and he said, you know, he's changing his approach slightly in in the sense. He's almost going morals schools realize quite big engine and he's doing less sprint training now needing more volume. But that just sort of shows how the art of sprinting from physiological point of view from training point of view, still very much evolving. Still sort of trying new things everyone is yes. Yeah. It's it's it's it's a lot of fun. Hurry, the simple way to put. A lot of fun. But in some ways the Bisi rules acquired simple. Yeah. It's interesting. The he hands China there, but we're doing things a little bit differently. But look with the sprint says, it really is about being fresh the mole recovered and fresh sprint series, the foster they are. But it's the parties point with start to lose fitness unless that's what we're trying to do is coaches to keep the insurance and the sprint. So just finally carrying on Marcel if there's warn keychain significant change he will be making on the you will be making two thousand nineteen what is it? That's a hard question on K change. It's not the kind of thing you really want to be putting aside we have made some changes and. Watch watch the results. Well, Kevin Poulsen houses a big job on his hands doesn't. Hey with Marcel Kissel who is coming off a really mean. Caleb you and had had a bad season loss. You're one of the start of the year. And then went mumps amongst with winning and wanna get to Britain. But it was it was a pure year for him as he said to you Daniel a wasted year. But Kittles problems seem to cause problems with his team Kittle was in the new team and was marquee signing for catoon opposite and was put in position to to win and perform well, but but just didn't seem to have it and the job I would think to to turn things around to into Patrick lefavor the to curbing train campaign. Hayes still maintains kid'll is the best in the world of all the sprinters. But but said the Katiza basically just assumed the dropping him into the team would lead to results and LeFevre said that wasn't how it worked when? Kittle was with that. They kept the pressure on him. They may impressed on him. He had to deliver. If we're were going to dedicate the team's resources to getting into the line. And you know, I think that's whether or not in a contusion may dispute, but because he clearly in not only to the knock at the results, but he never looked happy. Really the tour is completely outsource and he had already had a bad few months, but it's interesting. They obviously signed him massive signing for them. And they think we've signed the best in the world and that we need to do. And I think that probably a lot more to it. Indeed line. I think there was some confusion and a few misconceptions star lost year about one of the the problem was with Kissel in cotija a few people pointed the finger at the lead out train. And when that really wasn't issue this. She was the Kissel was no inform was not particularly fit when he started the season and never got fit. And that's been a bit of a recurring theme or something had a couple of seasons. When issues early on in the season have blighted him them for the rest of the season. So we someone who needs to really hit the ground running needs to have a mental straight away. And then he's he's very very difficult to to be. It's going to be interesting to to see how he gets on this year with a few changes every nobles come in mostly was a great German sprinter in his day. He's gonna be working alongside Kevin Poulsen Catania opposite. And then as far as you and is concerned. I mean, he's he's going to get. A bit of about about his afire. I think the Toda FRANZ lost year. Mitchelson Scott didn't make war. I think they would probably knowledge was that mistake of of announcing the previous December that he was going to ride the Toyota France, and and whether he rested on his laurels in the spring. He certainly didn't have ticket. Good results in the spring. Didn't win a lot of races. But I think as the months went by it became clear and clear it's Mitchelson skull that they were going to become even more of a general classification team. And and with only eight ride is at the Twitter FRANZ, he was going to be difficult to support a sprinter, and they didn't take you. And, but you know, that's left him as we heard an interview looking back on a couple of years when he hasn't done grand toes is still hasn't ridden a toward France. And there's a bit of a bottle neck as far as the sprints are concerned going into the season because there's. There's no office dominant figure from maybe Vivian. I mean on the basis of last year. We've Yanni will be the man to beat. But as you say law, and that's Waal. Kitto is still probably the faucets. Money's day deciding cost is supported by science in sports, science and sports fueled by science Frank very much to scientists sport for their support of the cycling podcast and reminding get twenty five percent off with code s I s c p twenty five SIS CPI twenty-five, the website, science and sport dot com. This week question for the sizes for expert comes from James, Jordan. And I think James lives in the US because he says are am friends. Coverage is worth every cent. He's paid. Thanks, james. But he asks the experts scientists sport and a question about morning attrition. My problem is feeding early in the morning as normally get up and head straight the trainer before going to work these sessions and only range from one to one and a half hours of in terms of intensity. Normally in the eighth tonight at ten on require nine hundred calories. According to my par- meter. My problem is feeding the for the sections of as I've never been able to eat any solid food in the first four hundred fifty minutes of waking. If I do anything I can guarantee it will come back up within ten minutes of consumption. I'm trying to lose weight of only been drinking water with a science electrolyte tablet. So new additional calories promo. Find it hard on occasion to finish my final interval as I am starting to feel like I just didn't have the energy on not having it in the legs. Most surprised James. I'm wondering if I should swap. My current drink for one that has more carbohydrates or eat something during the session. Thanks again. James Jordan over to you, Ben Samuels, I think right question James, and this is going to be a topic fail poses endurance focused individuals. Now the cans going to be balancing both body composition performance goals over consistent trading blog. I'm looking to achieve both throughout the training weeks. It's how we get best outcomes. Now, you're into left. It's on the going to be a time. To prioritize performance and in day. Not we need to ensure that both calories in carbohydrate of that to maintain what? Lows throughout the session, the drop in energy and subsequent suffering through those rentals, a lightly indicator of depleted carbohydrate stores and having to do this first thing in the morning before breakfast is just going to the compound issue for this one suggest a high carbohydrate evening meal the non beforehand, then cuffing prereqs provide that mental stimulus and get started through the first couple of intervals the nephew suggested. So each carbohydrate electrolyte drink joined the session that's going to provide the energy maintain carbohydrate availability for those lots of rentals where you rarely Stein to see performance declines 'em relations body composition goals. Weightless targets that you might have h days in the week that really time to talk so rest days coverage spans the lower intensity sections are the ones where you can reduce Cowdery and carbohydrate intake. Thanks for bed and reminded that if you've got. For the scientists experts. Please Email us contact at the cycling podcast com, or you can leave a voice memo on the what's outnumber which line off think you know, that off by heart. Don't number do well off by heart, but it's plus for for seven nine seven one three three eight two zero five, and if you miss that either just back ten seconds on this podcast, or it's in a bioch- on our Twitter page cycling underscore podcast. Indeed. So please send us your questions. Most of the questions we are about people's own nutrition. But if you wanna ask a question or even for the professionals, we can endeavour to get those questions answered well by a professional writer, so yeah, if you've got any questions at all just send them in. Now, Lionel you're in Spain last last week on early Spanish holiday for you in the south of Spain and copy at lovely copy. What did you what did you learn? Decoding comp land. Lots of things really. There's obviously been a rebranding of the team with a new sponsor coming into coning quick steps. Move back down to the the second sponsor slot, which well their association with cycling back to nine thousand nine hundred nine they were the co sponsor of the my team that Patrick Lefevere managed in one thousand nine hundred nine then they when Lefevere left and set up his own team. Quick step were the sponsor. They had a couple of years as secondary sponsor when a megaphone an ethics with title sponsor. And now that back in second slot. Patrick lefebvre's. He spent a lot of last year talking about the funding gap that he had knowing that quickstep was stepping down to the coast, bro. They still get some funding from that. The check kazillionaire. Denic Bokola, but not as significant as it has been in the past. And so they needed an additional sponsor and to Kern and came in pretty late in the day and not meant that few riders left. The team most notably under cavalier who went to you a team member basically to expensive for for current quickstep to Cape similar story with Nikki Terpstra who won the tour of Flanders lefavor would have liked to have kept him. But basically didn't have the budget to do. So when Direct Energy made an offer LeFevre said to terms or were you better take it because I don't want you to hold against me the opportunity slips boy because you any guarantees. I mean, not just be smart management. Terpstra is getting on a bit of just being the time to let him go and that a touch of the Alex Ferguson's about the favors, and that you know, he he's been there. So long running that team that you know, he's had generations of right? The the emphasis of the team is a be on winning winning the classics winning lots of stages never really gone for challenging in the grand tours may will change a little bit. With emergence of 'enrich. Massive course, a second in the well to last year, and we'll be talking the tour de France with very big personal ambitions this year that they believes he can win it on his debut, which would be a remarkable result. But they've never really had a great impact at the grand tours Lefevere's team lost match shagman who's going to one hundred grow. But the team still packed with Reuters can win an awful of experience last year. They went to seventy three races Philip show bat is still in the team. The the old man of team still harboring dreams of winning old of the monuments. Not sure how realistic that is. But for the couple classics if you're bad eve Lampe who won two of London. The last two years that set an XT. Of course, and Bob young who's will be having a go at the couple kasichs for the first time in this team's colors, laced them for the sprint cycle. Elliott Viana who already off them mall they season and Scotland's finest Alvarado and for the Auden, and I guess the the front shooting elephants. And and that's you know, out of it. He's going to win the tool, but he's certainly being French get some publicity. He's state winning potential and between you and Allah Philly like a presence in in the classics. Well, they really go all the bases covered. The on the management front a little bit of a region because I have to plug the hole will be left by Braun home. Who isn't quite retiring. But stepping back significantly gather around about fifty rice dice sports direct to this year, but most likely won't do any of the grand tour. So I understand given bone Belgian. Who? The two so the rider, but he will be in the team at the tour de France. So, you know, subtle changes rather than than, you know, big big big signings this year, but Patrick Lefevere knows that having one seventy three races last year. That is a a a talk that that that pretty unlikely to match I would have thought particularly having locked phonetic via who white in quite significantly spoke to a few ride as last week. We'll play a couple of other interviews next week. I think when those particular riders kickoff Essy's in Argentina. But this week we'll hit from Byun coups who is going to ride on the couples again this season not pyro by but he will ride from only news blood through two the two of Florida's started by asking him a little bit about why the team and he has come to that decision. And then I asked him about his grand. Tour NBA ambush and having finished six in zero d'italia in two thousand and sixty eighth in two thousand seventeen he focused on the two of to France last year. And from the outside looked like everything was going, really. Well, he was seventh stage two ru by the end of the first week, which meant he was fourth overall going into the first rest day, but gradually things unraveled in the outs. He looked a little bit of time on the stage to the grown born on when his roommate Julian elevate won the stage. And then you get more legacy and really fell out of contention over that mid week, though, he did rally a bit in the final week and finished eleventh now young very thoughtful young man magnificent ask I was. Came off sees it would it was looking like a well risen love. It was it was absolutely magnificent. And I had nothing but everybody it was hard to come on the conversation, really without my eyes drifting with difficult. Isn't it? It is. Yeah. Oversea Saloth cabinet tension into and I wonder whether that. Indicative of each of his macula macula glossier shiny than a life of bread. It's kind of life of bread with a with a some kind of glaze line. Oh, no. No. Exactly, right. Yeah. As it is magnificent. But he's quite an intense character, and obviously thinks very Kathleen about before like real type. No, I think in love. It's it's solid. But he talked about how basically he wound himself into such a state of the tour de France and didn't enjoy the racing told the tour is is tense and controlled anyway, and possibly the culmination of that and himself failing tents and controlled lead to him over thinking everything I was going to ask about you going to do some couple classics. But I guess the question turn around. Why have you written a couple classics of number eight because obviously under Twenty-three reveal debate well on the couples in the two loss gear. The reason because of how did last July while actually I did I did dry to regain my first year pro-. But then. Yeah. Kind of. I felt more attracted to the classics that time and to be on today. I'm very happy. I turned to that. But yeah, also winning winning last year. Also showed me that I was actually able to to win those monuments and. I talked to Tom Steels at the end of the season. And I don't wanna say he convinced me because it wasn't mind. I think just needed that little push. And I got a little confidence from the team riding on this. Yeah. It's kind of. Kind of trigger that that he may be released that I said, okay, I'm going to do that. But I also say that I'm going to use this year as and really as an introduction into those classics because I think well the experience teams, they're overly. I haven't. I haven't been around a lot in in Flanders recently. So I think yeah. Those races you just have to experience more than wants to perform at your best. I didn't want to make a hundred eighty degree turn from the ordin. So. Still living Riveria site. I'm convinced that founders this is raised. That's very close to profile is too. I'm still and just with couples which should actually suit me very excited about it. You say earlier on today how much you enjoy racing in Italy. And you're going back to the Jiro done. Well, in the past I'm interested in is what you made of the two of the FRANZ experience loss going in with a higher profile because of your JIRA result. And how racing in Italy and France compatible different. Well, awfully of hats. All those are open wide open was. I thought everything was supposed to and so actually put a little pressure on myself, maybe training too much interesting enough. I didn't have that freshness. Going into and then even during the toy I didn't enjoy one single day. I was just I was super stressed and. I was not myself in that race. But Silla of learned a lot especially this year. I I've learned to handle difficult situations, which I haven't had before. So. Yeah, it was quite an I think very important for myself just to get to know myself. Also better I'm convinced could have done better in two. But the reason why I'm going back to Jiro simply the course which. I mean with the three time trials with the first week that's out say, medium heart. And but like, yeah, it is on every stage. There's something going to happen. So it's very very much. My kind of racing for me outside. It looked like the first week. And especially when you wrote so well in the Cobos in the to like everything going fine kinda surprised to hear that. You were Phoenix directed kind of ten about the writing. What was it that go into your head then and made it so difficult? To be honest thing. I was just the pressure that put myself, I was just. Trying so hard to make that results in a tour and just couldn't relax. I was always worried about the next day at what would happen here. And. Yeah. And then you all was Julian in the room, and he was just like, I mean, he smashed it. And that didn't make it easier because. Yeah, obviously, you wanna perform well and. Yeah. So it was kind of kind of difficult to handle all these things. Even though I was fourteen you see for the first week that pressure from that we just fell off and then, but I couldn't perform India then to the end they got my. Yeah. Like this easiness and this feeling back in I was tacking into periods. And. Yeah. Experience with the tour de fail that you have absorbed coming from it. You have learned something when you go to the Jiro. You'll be conscious of allowing yourself to relax. Yeah. I think well what I've learned. It's definitely have to see things sometimes a little bit less strict to be strict myself to respect also respirators, and we kind of did that already. We have less racing much more focused. It's a level of one day racist. But they're all like, I say very precisely fixed too. To deliver to to make results and not just be, Dan. And that's what I'm I'm definitely taking from this year. I wanna be at start again and be there to win that race. And. Not to see how it goes support bugles there as you said, Lionel, very thoughtful on the an unmeasured, and I on a real talent and always husband but unclear what writer he become legend by still near winner. Now is he? Through the first couple of GD. He was mentioned as a you know, somebody who would develop into a three week stage. Racer I'm not sure he's just maybe maybe too big a build having said that is a similar Bill to Tom the mill with skill similar skill set. And he's still very young as well. I don't know whether it's a blessing recurs for him being declining quitter, so many other good writers and Baden. No, the Jiro. This year will be a chance for him to find his Mojo Agana suppose a three week tour. Are these tough hemorrhage and not team? I mean, just listening to the interview that was the conclusion I drew really in that team. I think there is space for a ride who's almost ready made and sort of ready packaged grunter ride to do. Well, we saw that with mass the Welte lost year. But. Uses kind of guy you feel team needs to make a project of setting as far as his Gruntal ambitions concerned almost like some web of done with Tom Dumoulin, who's a similar kind of profile of Reuters having similarly magnificent ha, but you'll lose you know, you hear him talk about needing help the toward the FRANZ. And you know, we mentioned loss week when we were talking about Dumoulin, how some web coaches now list of and I'm sure they're alone of sort of drill down into the the fundamental differences between the tour and the other ground tools and the tool within any given stage, you'll you having to accelerate, you know, one hundred times maybe as against full times in jeer or well to stay just to find you position in the bunch. And what not tells you is the you need. There's a lot of that goes on. Position moving up moving from one side of the bus to another. And generally when that's the case you need teammates, any people around us to do the and as we've seen in. Los couple of years is no the the coining now quickstep fully it's not team that can afford to go into ground tool with five guys just doing that for for Bob young. So I I think it's going to be tough AM. And you know, it was really interesting as well. Listen to him talk about the toll austere, and and rooming without a Felipe, and I can fully much in that was a difficult experience for him. Because I think they have very different current is quite intense. He noticed that the even the definite lost year that he was someone who was certainly very very determined. Not to let anyone down not to disappoint the team of the tour de France. But felt they looked to me is who's putting pressure on himself and on the other. Well, and they was rooming with Allah Felipe who to whom everything seem. To come effortlessly. I'm the success of the tool Jake came effortlessly, and he was also the same time being sort of adult Tate as this this national sweetheart in France, and with with the Midas, touch, and I must have been really difficult for young. Well, he's very effervescing elephant. Whereas you goes as far more kind of reserved. And so, you know, they must take all this into sedation when locating rooms and putting people together in rooms and making sure that compatible they must know them. So they must have they must. They must believe the work. Do they do on very well, don't I'm not. No, I I would imagine. So I mean, the the thing, you know, you'll go would would have been going back to his room everyday focusing on his performance. I mean, he did finish Levin. I mean, sixteen minutes down in the tour. You know? No, no, terrible. By any means if you'll remain is turning up every day with a fresh king of the mountains jersey and another guy flowers. Pretty tough to such a such an individual event the tool to France. Or as Francois says a team sport practiced by individuals, you things ongoing wealth for you. And you'll roommates having a wonderful time. I can imagine that would be difficult. What the problem for you? I think is he is so talented and stow versatile. I mean, there aren't many writers who can win the best on the age in the style that he wanted last year, which was impressive who can just sort of say, the click of the fingers all I'm going to back into couple classics, which I haven't done for years, but you know, as a quickstep team, you know, this is not writing the classics. You know, I didn't know g too. Bad example. But you know, this is the team that will go into every single couple classic expecting to get on the podium, at least and can go to the Jiro and legitimately think of a top five finish in a way to kind of quick, you know, all we talk about how efficient winning, you know, they don't need to put a lot of energy and specific f- into one particular item like bugles when I know that others will more more likely than not deliver as well. He's you know, he's like being in a in a great Manchester. United team the past back to Alex Ferguson example, again with lefavor he's he can play a role, but he can play all sorts of roles and variety. To versatile Pap series. I'm good under the luxury as well. Maybe because he's well, he he's also let's not forget when they've had a sprinter played an absolutely key role in in leading sprinters. I remember remember and particular with Gaviria the twenty seventeen Jiro there was a stage on Sardinia. I think when the crosswinds Ingles was immense. They and then wrote a very good race overall as well. So. Yeah. Huge a huge shoes talent. What will the next few years? Look like for him. It remains seeing I and yet Naipaul my understand that average ups Lutely determined than an Ottoman to win the Toda FRANZ. We wanna ride as before he does a day. Yes. And that will here in a friend special in. I think a few weeks time today my conversation with Patrick Lefevere. He's got at least he's giving himself at least another couple of years. So toy time is running out if he wants to win the two en masse this year, my my big my big tit this Year's Eve Lumper. I think he's going to have a big year for the. Several. He's got him. All the skulls Manal. He's gonna I think he's gonna win the to Flanders. There said he's gonna win the funds as even park. We funny now when he gets in a break on stage four of the tour and gained three minutes. Well, we'll be dig it. We'll be digging this by we should wrap things up their chops. And before we go quick, congratulations to Shinui who who as we as we speak has. A new addition to the Shinui family little baby boy born this morning. So congratulations to her family, wonderful news. And we should also remind you that are friends of the podcast program. For twenty nineteen is is open for business. Thanks very much. Everybody who signed up already is friend. There are three audiobooks available to friends of the podcast one from the four one from the Jiro one from the tour one from the Welte one from the women's to read by Daniel, Lionel myself, or LA and Francois Tommaso. So they're available honest say thanks very much. Everybody who signed up at the cycling podcast come very very grateful to you for your support. And if you've supported us a little bit more with extra money, thank you for that. And you will also be able to submit some ideas for a special episode later in the year of she will be guest editor. So we'll be asking for ideas. Sudesh our next. Special. I think will be yellow to who aren't called off to anymore. You movies MMA? I spent some time with them at their training camp before Christmas, and we'll hear from them, including premiums, rogue lich and Stephen cries wig. So that's coming up quite soon. But for the moment, thank you very much, Lionel, thank you, Richard. Thank you, Daniel, thanking I ever pro cycling two zero one nine new season is coming soon. This is a standard. Keep a ceiling Amelia. I'm marina behind me. Gene.

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Quarantine in Israel, Jews in the UAE

People of the Pod

36:27 min | 9 months ago

Quarantine in Israel, Jews in the UAE

"Hello and welcome to people of the pot brought to you by. Ajc and the Times of Israel each week we take you beyond the headlines and help you understand what they all mean for Israel and the Jewish people aren't Cogan and I'm on your brashear. Pacman This Week. Israel imposed a blanket. Fourteen Day self quarantine on everyone arriving from outside the country in order to control the spread of the novel Corona Virus The requirement is set to last two weeks but some experts predict it could remain in force even longer if the virus doesn't subside. Later in the season in fact Israel has imposed quite a few open ended restrictions limiting gatherings that might draw more than two thousand people and asking Israelis to stay away from hospitals and nursing homes suggesting they visit their loved ones outside the facilities instead. Dr Yonatan Freeman is an international relations expert and lecturer in the Department of Political Science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He specializes in national security and emergency responses. Dr Freeman welcomed the people of the Pod for having me so first and foremost. How are you feeling? Are you healthy? Are you talking to us from Quarantine Yourself? Well I'm healthy quarantine. We currently have tens of thousands in this country that are currently under quarantine but then life continues and the state of Israel continues to make moves which really balanced between having a proper daily life but on the other hand also having a proper response to the virus. I'm glad to hear that you're healthy. Explain why Israel is taking such drastic measures in response to this virus. Why are the steps so strict compared to other countries? I think there's two main reasons why Israel is taking very very strict moves to try to Intact the spread of the virus for one. I think that Israel has for decades proven that it really holds the safety of the country in a very very high regard and that means their intelligence agencies car security establishment. Always make sure we know of threats before they become very very strong against us so I think one of the things which is really pushing us to take a strict moves against this virus is really that there might be a lot of information. That's flowing into our decision makers which is making us not so comfortable pets for one. The second thing is that Israel is a very very small country. We lack geographic depth so any type of outbreak of the sort that we're seeing in Italy or that we saw in China and continue to see South Korean other countries such an outbreak. We'll bring a a very tragic situation a situation which can really create a a havoc and the fact that we don't really have so much geography so much land makes us have to move very quickly to prevent the spread of such a virus in our borders So is this unprecedented. I mean did Israel take similar measures when people got hit with swine flu or SARS. Yeah we take this sort of measures but again what we're seeing right now is. The world is different than the little devils during SARS even the connection that China has the world so what was going on in China was not the same China that was also being involved and connected to the SARS outbreak in other viruses. In the past so I think what Israel is doing is really drastic. It's really unique. We haven't done anything like this in the past. I think that the fact that in the past when we had such outbreaks around the world and they didn't really make a big footprint in Israel. This really proves that Israelites. Always taking the correct steps and has done so in a way which prevented any sort of outbreak here in prison times. So now what role does intelligence play or did even intelligence play in. Israel's emergency response in other words I mean intelligence and the official sense Did public officials do they track outbreaks and other countries before they come to Israel who wasn't in terms of the intelligence. We always made sure we have all permission in our hands especially when it comes to things that confront our security threaten our economy for Jewish people Worldwide and even been reports recent reports in our media that weeks before we even had any kind of a virus in her country. We went ahead and sent individuals to collect the virus samples of the Corona virus from Italy from China from Japan. We collected the samples. He brought it here to our biological center in Niskayuna to try already to see what's going on there. Why does inspire is? How can we protect from it? So even before God here we already went ahead and brought the virus here obviously in a very secure manner. The second thing is really preparing weeks before I got here we. It was published that we've purchased a lot of equipment. We knew that the masks would run out on a local market. We started preparing our Israel Defense Force in terms of the possibility that maybe flights full stop. And we'll need the air force here to be able to Pick up the slack and bring things into the country in case. There's a big problem with that. So I think part of our intelligence on the one hand knowing what can impact our security and our economy or key pool in on the other hand. It's also about what we can do. If it is certain that it will get here just like we probably knew about the thing in China what we can do to prepare a population and our decision makers so that when it reaches their played they'll know what to tell the public in how to act on a day like in other words. I really good strong. Emergency response is emergency preparedness right. I mean really having some advance warning and really trying to prepare for the worst. Yes preparing for the worst as you probably know and your listeners probably recalled. Israel's sent even individuals in the past to help fight in Africa other viruses around the world so part of our preparedness is also being based on our experience. And that's what we gain. Every time we assist people fighting viruses around the world assist people in humanitarian situations like in power and different places. So we help them but we also assist ourselves knowing what to do when such a time comes to our own wars. Do you find that other countries are learning from Israel and taking a page from from Israel's playbook on this yes a couple of days ago actually Netanel. Our Prime Minister had a teleconference that leaders in Europe including leadership in Italy. Cyprus other places and I think that even during this teleconference we probably conveyed to them what they need to do. Because based on what we're seeing in terms of the numbers the people getting infected. That's really need to do something. I don't know if there's a connection. Maybe there is where Italy just recently announced a complete lockdown on the entire country so I think part of what we're teaching them is on the one hand to make decisive moves. Because if you don't get out of hand the second thing is really getting the public involved and I think one major difference that we have as an advantage here in Israel compared to most of the Western world is that most of our people have been in uniform one day or another and the fact that most people are served in national service in the military causes us to be have a mindset in the back room mine and in times of emergency and times of drastic need to move. There is a sort of discipline that comes about even though we may forget what we did in the army. The army never forgets us. It's still in our system and I think that's an an advantage that has in terms of our ability to be prepared to act as a population when the time comes. That's a really interesting point because I know here in New York. I mean you see the occasional person wearing a mask or avoiding touching the handrails on the subway but those subways are still packed and I would say that not. Many people have let the virus impact their daily routines. And so I was going to ask you. How are Israeli citizens you handling all of the restrictions? Do they abide by them? Do you see them flouting. Them sounds like they obey. Yes yes we obey. And that's why the viruses obeying till now not spreading. I think that of course some people complaining but I gotTa be quarantined but I think the system here really allows for people here to follow instructions. You know that. We don't have said geographical death the small country. We can't afford to make any mistakes because if we lose a battle as we always saying a war if we lose a battle we lose the country so I think that's one of the things is pushing people to follow instructions. Nothing is really the safety net that we have on a social aspect. I've seen reports in different countries. Where people even though. They're sick are coming to work because they're afraid not going to get their paycheck. They're not GONNA get their salary here. We have a system which and it's already been published and people using it if you're quarantine you'll get paid There's no way to fire. You'll be paid and not only that even if you're unemployed and you're getting unemployment benefits you'll still beginning those benefits even though you're not showing up to the job center so I think our safety net system also makes it that the economic reasoning for someone not following instructions is not there. Yeah so I saw a list and the Times of Israel up a list of places where presumably patients have been and therefore anyone else that has been. There has to be quarantined for example. Anyone who was in the Church of the Nativity between three and four thirty on a particular date must go into quarantine and anyone who was in the Herod Supermarket. Between five thirty and six on March. Sixth needs to go into quarantine. This seemed remarkably precise. If not a little insane I mean are Israelis keeping journals to track their moves. How do you keep up with where you are on a particular day at a particular time? Is there a methodology to this? That's kind of built into the culture at the very question because I've been getting questions as if what is the government spying on everyone that we know where everyone is going. And what's going on? I can tell you ninety nine percents of all the information you see on that list were. You was where she was where she eight. That's the citizens themselves telling us what's going on. I presume to ask so one of the other locations I read. Was that anyone inside a Jerusalem voting booth at a particular school on March. Second Between Eight and eight ten. Am You know they need to go into quarantine as well and that made me think about the political friction that has kind of been the story there For the past year and I'm just curious you know it has this given any added perspective. Has it had any kind of galvanizing effect or has it? Even maybe exacerbated the political friction that has dominated there. Well I think two things for one. I think there was a consensus in terms of even does against Nathanael that Netanyahu and health minister leads on are doing the right thing took the correct steps and says that the Germans really working at it correctly I think. Another impact is really that this continuing situation worldwide which has great effects on our economy tourism. Different things disc could push more and more all sides to form a unity government. I think this is something which We're hearing more and more voices about that. That there is a need for you. Determine is a worldwide medical emergency. We need to stop talking about the other issues that. Divide US apart and talk about this major issue which is growing worldwide. And there's even call right now to maybe form a coalition just for the corona virus issue in other words. The only deal with this. 'cause what's happening right now. Is that the parliament. Can't vote on certain laws to fight the virus because there is no garbage. I was sell out saying that. Former coalition of the right and the left and they were only vote on things related to the corona virus. So I think this virus which is infecting a lot of people could also infect in other words the right and left to try to like each other coalition government very interesting very interesting Dr Freeman. Thank you so much. For sharing your perspective with us and most importantly stay well victory very much have the Jewish diaspora reaches every corner of the globe beyond the obvious places like the US and Israel you can find Jews as far north as Reykjavik Iceland Fairbanks Alaska or Oslo Norway and as far south as Buenos Aires Argentina Johannesburg South Africa or Melbourne Australia. Until recently one might have thought that the Arab Gulf states wouldn't be a great place to look for Jews but a recent series of articles have highlighted what. Ajc has long known. There is a small growing thriving Jewish community in the United Arab Emirates. Joining us now from Dubai to shed light on the community. He heads as a volunteer is Ross Creel Ross. Thank you so much for joining us. Great to be with you now. There are Arab countries with rich Jewish. Histories Egypt comes to mind for example but the United Arab isn't one of those right. How is it that came to be a Jewish community in Dubai? Well the whole reason why we excited about the Jewish community of the emerets. Is that precisely for this reason? Because it's a new Jewish community so rather than being a fragment of an ancient Jewish community. It's something new with something hopeful. Why's it here onto your question because this is a place of business It's a place where they should be juiced. And that's why we feel so strongly that he should build up the community obvious. Follow up question to that. Which is why now I guess the. Uae is a very different country today than it was even just a couple of decades ago. Isn't that right? Well that's a good question and I like to think that it's not in other words. I like to think that the tolerance and pluralism which has been so powerfully demonstrated in the. Us is not in. You think it's something that is decades old and goes in fact to Fonda Shaykh Zayed. He's values we're all about them and in fact even though the Jewish communities new there the communities and Hindus Sikhs the hives and certainly Christians that have been here for for decades. So the the concept of fluids not you but indeed our community is new in the and that's a fascinating point about pluralism will turn more toward what interfaith pluralism looks like in Dubai and in a moment but I guess my question was more just economically right. You said the part of the reason why Jews are. There is because it's a place of business so ex pats. From other countries around the world are coming to Dubai and that happens to include Jews and you have found this community and coalesced but that it was not such a business hub. Ten years ago twenty years ago right. Yeah I guess. There is a miraculous aspect to the development of the UAE. Twenty or thirty years ago the fabulous skyscrapers and development that you see here in Dubai number W did not exist so it is relatively new I think that made very smart decisions in the late nineties especially in Dubai which in fact is not an oil based economy and they realized very early on that they had to build up an economy naturally best commodities which was based on human talent. And if they didn't do that They would never succeed so. It's a decision taken in the late nineties if you come and visit you biosphere. Now that those ideas have sorriest Wendy Can you just share with us a little bit of your own story? Ross what it is that made you a judging by Your Voice a South African Ju decides to leave that community and make your home in Dubai. You could say it with the at the time anyway Something of a crazy decision. But I'm Dr Beavis Shit so to speak something about my destiny. But on a question I'm an Orthodox observant Jew Probably not the kind of person you would expect to find here in the east when I first arrived. Why am I here? Because I worked for Global French company which has a regional head off They wanted me to be. I'm along with how the experts and told me that if I wanted my career to develop needed to be here and they asked me for two years and I said no for two years and eventually I said yes and why did I say yes because I came here with my wife and we met the sort of embryonic Jewish community of here Iran twenty ten twenty and Evan and we went into the supermarkets and fun. Kosher Food and we decided had a great adventure on we could never of imagined how great that eventually really would be but all the Jews that yeah so it needs. You came at the time that I did. I guess adventurous and Edgy and feel that we have something to offer. I WANNA say that I. I made a kind of a personal pledge to myself if I was going to come. Yeah I wanted to be a fitness and literally two weeks off to my arrival my wife and I were hosting rush. You'RE GONNA say this is. We've never looked back. No I'd say it's probably the most exciting wonderful thing we've ever done now. Every Jewish community I think has its own kind of flavor. I'm an upper west side. Ju I'm I'm a little bit different. I feel from La Jews. Maybe we're both a bit different from French. Jews or South African Jews like yourself do you have Jews from everywhere in Dubai has their kind of emerged. A unique Dubai Jewish flavor Yeah so eventually when somebody says to me my from I wanna be able to say Dubai rather than Johannesburg. I'm very committed to the place. What would it mean to be Dubai? Ju Ju think as we'll discuss and of course with this conversation sexy it'll mean being global in your outlook. It'll mean being very inclusive it'll mean being committed to a vision of Jewish and Muslim Brotherhood. And those would be some of the flavors eventually that the Dubai Jews. The Jews will have intensive demographics. Whereabout is global that you could imagine. There's every nossa every language every misora every tradition and that's the beauty of the community When I went back to China's Berg one time off the being into by fifty years my robot came up to me to be paid and he said to me rock. Isn't it nice to pray with people that are like you and I thought for a minute? I thought to myself no I actually liked per people that are different from me and I think that is sort of definitive of community. It's just the beautiful variety dynamism of it and the difference of it and what you see here in Dubai is just the richness and beauty of global jewelry. I love that the article in The Times of Israel that maybe kind of first announced to your community to the world. The headline was for the first time. Dubai's Jewish community steps hesitantly out of the shadows. What was it that led you and your co religionists the Jewish community of the Emirates? What was it that led you to step hesitantly out of the shadows Lovey dramatic okay. So we just to say that we had been developing for many years quietly before the Times of Israel and beautiful article spoke about how community. Why did we decide to tell the world about ourselves? I guess because there was massive interest in community and people were writing about us but often in a way that accurate and in a way that we thought Didn't do justice either community e I mean he felt the need to on story Through a journalist that trusted and funding interviews and research etc and so we just thought they need to put on record a narrative about our community treat for reliable and the other thing is that at that time I think there was more willingness on the side of the authorities to start having all story and in fact today encouraged us to do so so it was a mix effective. Ajc's own Jason. Isaacson has of course been travelling to the Gulf for many many years and one thing that he has found. I'm there in which you alluded to as well Ross is the way in which interfaith relations and a kind of pluralistic spirit is important to the Emirati government. Can you say a bit more about what that has meant for the Jewish community? Well I think the first thing that's mentioned that we've always felt welcome in You know years of our community. There was a certain amount of paranoia. Urban myth was it. Okay TO HEAD IS READY STAMPS. And your passport was it. A Katie said that you Jewish in official documentation was IT A. K. To open up your friends and colleagues that you Jewish and there were worries and concerns entire neue and I think that as we adjusted to life in the yeah you realized that affect our presence here is is really quite natural you would expect it to be juicier because as you say. They're experts from all around the world doing business and it should be Jews. Yeah and we started to realize that in fact in terms of the social contract with the play with its massive emphasis on respecting your fellow human being especially respecting the religious differences among human beings. We realized in fact that there wasn't a problem with us being on the country that our presence here is something that is celebrated and you know you can speak about why that is and how that can't be but ultimately where we want to get to and where we already feel to some extent is that it's just the most natural thing in the world for us to be here Do you wear a key. Pa Out on the streets of Dubai. Yeah so that's the question people ask and the Simplon says that I don't but I don't not where it keeps Because it could be dangerous in any way to do the as unfortunately it may be in certain cities in Europe. And another world. We don't keep puts for two reasons first of all because we don't want to sensationalize presence. Yeah you know we ordinary people living ordinary lives and certain way who just want to be Jewish as well and we don't want to be posted boards and go full. You know big SUV and political and ideological ideas. We just WANNA get on without knives. So that's the first thing is we don't want to sensationalize presents. And the second thing is that we have to acknowledge that notwithstanding the amazing embrace of the Emirati that enjoy it so many years. I'm Dubai a very cosmopolitan city with people from all over the world and We have to be patient. We have to normalize how presence at the time so it's our judgment as a community that it's premature to you know having to have Jews wearing keep putting innovate public context and a more private setting in business meetings in her towel and the airport. It's generally not an issue and if people do keep that it might be that somebody politely gently few to find another head covering. That's the worst to that but we rocky put in summary Judgment. It's panic CIA to do so. Well Ross I look forward to someday hopefully joining us for Shabat in Dubai and I'm sure many of our listeners. Do as well thank you so much for joining us on the pod being a great pleasure and I really encouraged to come and visit you. Buy and other Debbie. It's the most incredible place and Kinda like completely changed the time. Yeah now it's time for a closing segment. Chabad table talk and joining us at our table. This week is Miriam her. Schlaug opinion and blogs editor at The Times of Israel. Miriam when you're talking with your family and friends at your table this weekend. What are you gonNA be talking about High Steffi and Monica well? I'd like to imagine we'd get a break from talking about the corona pandemic but. I know we won't everyone is talking about it and that being the case. I'm going to riff on the ways. This frightening illness intersex with the Purim holiday. We just celebrated so my thinking on. This started on Sunday when I was in the supermarket on Palmer Street here in Jerusalem I was heading to the checkout to pay for seven kilos of self rising flour two kilos of sugar and twenty four containers of tomato paste and it occurred to me that in these days of quarantine someone might reasonably assume. I was engaged in hoarding. It's not a good look. I mean it's viewed as alarmist and even worse as being insensitive to the needs of others for the record. When I took my items I did check to see that. The shelves had plenty more of each product. I was not clearing the place out like some kind of hoarder. I was just getting ingredients for a major food making project for him and that was when I started a little game in my head. Is it corona virus or is it just poor It can be a little hard to tell. It's not just hoarding versus our over the top. Prep for a holiday. Oh and by the way if shopping for poor and looks like hoarding. Wait till April when Passover. Shoppers pick the shelves clean. And you have here in Israel and actual hoarding tradition. Where NON-OBSERVANT JEWS FILL THE FREEZER WITH BAGS OF PITA bread but there are other poor connections eerie similarities. So another one is obviously masks masks. Have been trending for weeks ensure a mask for having fun on. Purim is totally different from surgical mask for screening out bike robes. The main difference. Is that the poor mask achieves its goal. Of course we also know that both the corona virus and poor can make you feel sick although the symptoms do differ. But what about the fact that Kerr or crown is mentioned three times in the poem story and Corona Means Crown to note the spiky surface of the virus and children? What about children? They have more fun than everyone on forum and they are the most safe from Cova nineteen the serious illness produced by the corona virus. There's a lot of noise involved in both the Purim story and corona virus. A lot of edicts are being handed down from on high. And what about care packages in the poem context? These are known as Michelle Ma. Note that pretty bag or say an upside down clown hat filled with treats is just the kind of item of friend might give to someone in quarantine and it's not just the what but the how delivering Michela Monot. If you go to the home of neighbors or friends to give them therefore him treats and they aren't home what do you do you hang it on the DOORKNOB and move on? That's exactly how friends and Food Delivery Messengers are leaving food for those many thousands here in Israel who are under quarantine. So you can see. It's a game show waiting to be made and about that flour and other stuff. I was buying on Sunday. Well these were for the lowest note my family gave out one part of it was a bag of lentils spices freeze dried onions tomato paste that cook up into a quick pot of soup and there was also a flour mixture plus a bottle of beer for making a fast loaf of beer bread. This to be truthful wasn't a matter of poor verses Corona virus it was the central overlap section of Jewish ven diagram that shows what the two things have in common feeding. Those we care about food to fulfill the poem tradition of giving and food to live out the value of helping those who are in need or who might just be feeling a bit lonely here in. Israel we may be proactively quarantining more people than any country in the world but one thing we don't do so well is isolating now Manja. What about you Saffy Mariam Family Separation? Travel bans discrimination. These of course have been some of the more controversial topics of political debate for the last three years. They've been in the context of national security well-being. Americans don't want terrorists in this country so the administration ban Muslims a discriminatory policy. Ajc has been outspoken against the government discourages people seeking asylum by quarantining parents in detention centers and separating their children another policy. Ajc has denounced. Now we're talking about the very same things but in a very different context public health. This virus does not discriminate. Well one colleague pointed out it actually. Does it targets the elderly. Those whose health is already compromised. The young and healthy. They seem to escape with mild cases. But now some of the travel bans. Don't discriminate either. Israel quarantining everyone that gets off an international flight. The United States is banning travelers from twenty six European countries as the spread of the virus picks up pace across the Middle East and elsewhere like Australia. Where Tom Hanks in his wife or convalescing. That list is sure to grow these. Tough travel bans make sense inconvenient to be sure but they make sense but for some there also painful because they've led to forced family separation to keep our parents and grandparents healthy suddenly requires that to know visits to nursing homes. Some families are already cancelling Passover Sater's my in laws had planned a huge trip here to see their grandkids and celebrate a bevy of big occasions. We've urged them to reconsider. I've been here before about this time last year. In fact my father's health was quite fragile and my children's health was constantly gross. Finding that sweet spot. When there were no sniffles to share seemed impossible and it was driving me mad but that sweet spot did emerge and my children were able to see their grandfather just two weeks before he passed away as my father's yard site approaches on Monday I'm experiencing a bit of a deja Vu. I had been eager to see my mother and my sister. And celebrate my father. But regardless of sniffles that is not going to happen. Not for a while to be honest. I'm not even sure I'll be able to get into a synagogue to recite. Codfish I share all of this. Because I've really been thinking about how an illness possibly fatal illness put life in perspective. It aligns priorities inspires creativity and in some cases. Besides the runs on disinfectant whites and paper towels highlights examples of altruism. I do hope listeners can take their minds off the many inconveniences that the corona virus is imposing on all of us and find those sweet spots. They will emerge if you let them perhaps even on the campaign trail. Wouldn't that be something? My father John Rhys Year like to say. It's always something it is. If it wasn't a highly contagious virus. It probably would be something else so along with many fond memories of my father priorities and perspective. That's what we'll talk about at our table Saffy. Welcome back from Israel. What will you be talking about on Chabad? That's beautiful? Thank you for sharing that. I was in Israel last week and I had all these grand plans of returning to people of the pod to share the special experiences. I had like visiting my friends who are new Israeli citizens and meeting their baby daughter or accompanying them when they went to vote in their new home for the first time or the beautiful contrast between old tradition and new exciting development as I joined my friend for his commute from Jerusalem to his office at Google Tel Aviv and prayed in the morning. Minion on Israel's brand new high-speed train but the talk at my Shabat table this week will doubtless be about corona virus as we try to avoid making hand contact while passing food around the table. I feel like I have been racing ahead of the pandemic for the past two weeks when I departed from the US to Israel. I like most of my friends wasn't really concerned yet about the disease. While in Israel I gradually found myself spending more time indoors and avoiding public places more than usual. I canceled a planned trip to Barcelona because Israel announced a mandatory quarantine for all travellers returning from Spain to the friends. I have been traveling with. Were returning to Israel after that trip so a two week quarantine wasn't an option and the rest of US decided not to chance it. I departed from Israel for London as planned and shortly after landing in the UK. Learn that Israel had further tightened flight restrictions. Basically it was good. I got out when I did as most flights are no longer flying in London. I had the opportunity to observe a bizarrely calm debate in the House of Commons about corona. I had just come from mostly shuddered Israel only to hear the. Uk's Health Secretary downplay the need for quarantines. The next day I read that one of his under secretaries had tested positive for the virus the next day yesterday I flew home on a plane with only thirty eight out of one hundred and eighty seats filled. I landed back in New York and less than an hour later. Found out that the US was instituting. Major travel restrictions on European flights. I returned to a very different America than I left. So far I feel okay but who knows with all that travel may have been exposed to the virus. That's why I'm recording this for my Home Office away from Montana and our producer con we at J. C. Cancel Program scrapped travel and will be working from home for at least next week continuing are crucial advocacy but at the same time doing everything we can to help prevent the spread of the virus. I hope that you will join us in doing your part and together. We'll beat this. Shabana them bellone ship Bat. Shalom you can subscribe to people of the pod on itunes Google play or spotify or learn more at AJC dot org slash people of the pot. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC and the Times of Israel. We'd love to hear your views and opinions or your questions. You can reach us at people of the pod at AJC DOT Org. If you like this podcast be sure to read it and writer of you to help more listeners. Find US. Thank you for listening. This episode is brought to you by JC and the Times of Israel producer is Condo are sound engineer is tk Broadway tune in next week for another episode of people. Love the POD.

Israel The Times Dubai Ajc Ross Creel Ross China US Jerusalem Israel Defense Force Dr Yonatan Freeman United Arab Emirates Italy corona Europe SARS Dubai Jews official AJC
Covid, kids, and a mystery illness

Today, Explained

18:01 min | 7 months ago

Covid, kids, and a mystery illness

"Support for this show comes from Oregon. That tool. That'll make your body feel better tried. Thera- gun risk free for thirty days. There's no substitute for the Thera Gun. Gen Four it's got that led screen. Just look that up. It means. Organic light emitting diode to LCD. It's got the personalized Thera- gone up and the quiet and power. You need starting at only one hundred ninety nine dollars Bob go to theralac dot com slash explained right now and get your Gen for. Thera gun today that has deragon dot com slash explained deragon dot com slash explained at the outset of this pandemic. When it was just arriving in the United States. There is a sense that kids weren't really at risk. Since then things have gotten less clear. Kids have died from Cova. Nineteen and now they're reports that kids not adults are contracting a mysterious inflammatory illness related to Cova nineteen today. We're going to try and clear up some of the confusion surrounding kids and covert with the help of Dr Kevin Friedman on my office in Boston Children's hospital. He's a pediatric cardiologists there. And he also teaches pediatrics. At Harvard Medical School we started with this mystery illness. Yes were rapidly. Seen as emerging of a highly inflammatory state in children and teenagers that has features that are often also seen in Kawasaki disease or toxic. Shock seems to represent a unique and new emerging syndrome in issue either of Kobe positive or in some cases there cova negative but at cove exposure so. How different does this Kawasaki Disease? Look from Cova Nineteen Alexakis. These is vascular essentially inflammatory disease of unknown aetiology. That usually affects children to to eight years of age can cause severe inflammation of the cornea arteries which these elation in. There's some overlap in terms of patients presenting symptoms including a persistent high fever. Which is the hallmark of both and then Things like rash and red is as well. Swollen hands and feet can occur in both cogan patients are presenting with much more heterogeneous and much more buried. Symptoms Some respiratory distress like adults with cogut others have decreased in the left and trigger pumping puncture the heart so Kobe. Asians are having much more on buried presentation just to be clear here. This syndrome is completely new though. It's similar to the thing called Kawasaki Disease. This is something unlike you've ever seen. Yeah we think it's an emerging new syndrome that has features accounting sake disease as well as toxic shops ago. It seems to be temporarily related to Cova so it seems to be a new emerging syndrome which features include some of those seen. Kawasaki Disease as well as other diseases. What are you calling this thing with your colleagues so it just in the last couple of weeks people have come up with an acronym For for it called pins. Pin S for Pediatric Inflammatory Multi System Syndrome. Okay anecdotally called it Koba. Koba Sake for combining our sake and Cohen. But I think that's one of the key things is we're still trying. We're still coming up with even a case definition defined. What this disease can you? Can you help us understand how exactly we came to know that this was something different? And and when the first cases were documented about three weeks ago several groups in London made the world aware of this cluster of cases which seemed Proportion to the normal incidence of Kawasaki disease or these of highly inflammatory conditions. Children get very sick and are admitted issues. A can be a webinar about two weeks ago. Where leaders from around the world misfield about the data and all were in agreement that does seem to represent a new syndrome that will certainly temporarily related. Cova with about half the basis being actually tested positive for covert and many having. Antibodies later on definitely seems to be covert related and We have heard anecdotal reports of cases throughout the US but seem to cluster in a couple areas. Which are areas that have been heavily affected by coat from New York City in The New York? Metro area also reported cases in Connecticut. New Jersey as well as Detroit Louisiana and even in California. We've had a handle cases here in Boston. The second epidemiologic feature seems to be that affects agents of Afro Caribbean descent. Weighed more frequently than other ethnicities in. People are still trying to figure out. What the allergy of that as a one day set Oxley two-thirds of the children or of afro-caribbean out of curiosity were there any reported cases of this inflammatory syndrome in from China. Interestingly no and it's unclear if that was because it's different ethnicity or a slightly different virus there seems to be some evidence that the virus that we're seeing mostly in the US east coast of the. Us is slightly different came through Europe and the virus that they're seeing on China and the west coast is a little distinct so no there are really no cases reported of this inflammatory syndrome from China. It's unclear that was because it wasn't recognized in the middle of epidemic of adult disease. That was badly higher numbers or if it's a little bit different virus or the same virus but different effects in different patients have different actors. Do we know why this is only showing up in kids? Nobody knows they definitely have seen adults with some of the features like very high levels influenced by Matori Markers and other other Lab abnormalities that. We're seeing I think the in adults the respiratory symptoms are so prominent and there so severe that that's overwhelmed everything else. They are definitely seeing some of yours that we've seen in children but not all of them and I think the striking thing is that children largely fair to the respiratory system and that's what's made the the inflammatory component and then in some cases the cardiac component more prominent. How lethal is it? Generally speaking most kids recover some of them do get very very sick require. Icu Care for things. Like reading. Tubes war medicines Called on a their heart better or even for heart-lung support there have been a few reports of fatalities from New York City or just yesterday continuing times of Three Children. Unfortunate and make it out of one hundred but overall it's still a very rare syndrome and most children recover. Well was supportive. Care and the anti-inflammatory Eric do we know anything about how contagious this inflammatory syndrome is is it. Is it something that can spread from kid to kid or or is it the Cova? That's spreading from Connecticut? And then this inflammatory syndrome appears yes. That's correct inflammatory. Syndrome is not contagious at all. It seems to be the cove exposure or Kovin positively that predispose children to make an immune response likely to the Krona Virus. That led leads to this inflammatory syndrome. But the inflammatory syndrome itself is not Contagious have you encountered any children? Any families who are dealing with this disease yourself. Yes we've had about ten children at Boston. Children's hospital with some variation of this inflammatory syndrome. After cove exposure roughly five of them were very second required intensive care management. But but no fatalities. What do you tell parents who bring their kids in? Who are already terrified of cove. Nineteen baby you've heard that their kids aren't at risk and then now you have to tell them they have some inflammatory disease. That you know doesn't even have a name yet yes. I think that things are that we still have to reassure families of business. Incredibly rare and children are still seem largely spared. This new syndrome certainly is a concern. But it's still extremely rare. We've actually seen most children get better over about a week's time. We would expect a full recovery recognizing they may require a lot of care management and Can get sick in the. How are the kids handling it? That you've encountered the ten or so kids are handling it. Okay children are really resilient. So I think They face things a lot. Better in most cases adults including their parents and Some of them are certainly very sick in our is you are on a breathing. Machine or getting medicines tells their heart and maybe sedated but most children balanced batum pretty quick and able to adapt and fortunately especially with the cardiac involvement in most cases. We've seen that get better with aggressive More kids and covert with Dr Freedman after a quick break. Sean Roms Firm. This is today explained. I told you about about the Thera gun at the top of the show. If you will allow it at like tell you a little bit more now that we have a little bit more time to breathe and and let the words linger. They've got a new third model. The thera- gun Gen Four. It's loaded with a special new motor. That's so quiet you'll barely be able to hear it. I appreciate silence. I'm sitting in a closet right now. Maybe you WANNA work on that. Not before bed and your partner is trying to sleep. Well now you can finally do that without creating a huge Fisher in your relationship and let's be real. The fishers are happening right now right. We're all at home together. anyway trite their risk. Free for thirty days. There is no substitute for their Gen. Four with an old screen personalize. There're gonNA APP and the quiet and power. You need it. Starting at only one hundred and ninety nine dollars go to faira gun dot com slash explained right. Now get your Jen for Thera- gun today. That has they're gone dot com slash. Explain you know when you call up your old college roommate to talk about how you're feeling about this corona virus but you can tell she just wants to watch old episodes of Seinfeld so she can appreciate the great legacy of Jerry Stiller mean and that's totally cool but you really WanNa talk about your feelings. Well consider better help. They got licensed professional counselors. Who are standing by to talk to you about depression. Isolation stress anxiety. They probably talked about the weather today. To to be frank to get started simply fill out a questionnaire to help assess your needs and then you get matched with the counselor in less than twenty four hours after that you can easily schedule secure video or phone sessions with your therapist plus exchange unlimited messages. And isn't that the name of the game better help is affordable listeners? Get Ten percent off your first month with Discount Code explained so why not get started better help dot com slash explain that's better ag. L. P. Dot com slash explained Dr Freeman. I think when this buyers hit the United States we heard a lot about how kids will largely be spared. Is that still your understanding yes To to a certain extent certainly the data initially from China suggested that children were essentially completely sperry with an incredibly low rate of children. Having even any kind of symptoms with at merging of this new inflammatory syndrome. That's CO related. It does make us think twice in. Certainly we have to be a little bit. More careful trickle in children who having fevers or other wise acting very unwell they need to seek medical engine. But I think it's important to be clear this isn't Children with low grade fevers and mild. Cold symptoms are very very sick with high persistent Iverson and then gastrointestinal symptoms Bemberg prominent. Do We know anything. More about Y. Kids are still largely spared from in nineteen. Not Exactly No. Fortunately most kids have few underlying health connections and certainly what we've seen in the adults who are very ill Kobe. It's largely the elderly on those with underlying medical conditions. But the exact details of white children seemed to be largely especially the respiratory symptoms are not entirely clear. So is that to say that the kids who are getting cove in nineteen in the United States and elsewhere are largely ones who have underlying conditions. I would make a distinction at the initial data seems to indicate that children who get respiratory failure in choir is like Positive pressure bend elation or intimation with the ventilator those children seem to be largely children underlying metal conditions that predispose them to respiratory failure whereas new inflammatory syndrome seems to be affecting all types of children without underlying supposing metal finishes once a child has Cova nineteen. Does it look any different in a trial than a dozen adult yes The key differences are adults with Kobe. Nineteen predominantly getting sick from respiratory failure in low auction levels whereas children. The restoration are less prominent and particularly those who developed this Amatori Syndrome often don't have respiratory symptoms or have minimal respiratory symptoms and symptoms from The GI tract including abdominal pain vomiting diarrhea much more prominent and then a lot of them are actually presenting very sick with low blood pressure and human dynamic shock where the is low and they need support with to help blood pressure if children do get cove in Nineteen. What are their recovery rates right? Now do we know generally speaking most children who are getting Cova Keener Still? Highly likely to be minimally. Symptomatic are asymptomatic. I'd say the overall rate is a full recovery is extremely I in those presenting with respiratory type of symptoms largely depend on their underlying medical conditions but for children who have a minimal underlying medical conditions. Also the recovery rate is very high last type of presentations with this highly inflammatory syndrome. With that we're still learning a lot but it seems that the majority of children's still recover fully although there have been a few concerning cases where children have not recovered. That have been recently. Reported knows children's Had severe involvement of our heart on and true heart. Failure Related Syndrome. So I guess with super high recovery rates and even low rates of infection and most kids being a symptomatic I I imagine. A lot of people are wondering why their kids can't go back to their normal lives. What would you say to those people who are wondering about that? I think there's two components to that. The first is from a global epidemiologic standpoint. The vast majority of children show no symptoms of respiratory illness. Or this new. I'm Tori condition It can still carry the virus and spread it to others in a global standpoint. Only way to stop spread is social distancing until we have a vaccine probably most importantly is that there it can be carriers of the virus. You've McNary symptomatic and second still learning a lot about this inflammatory syndrome and some children are getting very very very small number not survive and certainly we don't. We don't want to expose more children to the risk of developing Bama Syndrome or respiratory Elliott related to the next so. What advice would you give parents who are trying to maintain their sanity keeping their kids at home in this moment? I think the key thing to recognize. Is this still extraordinarily rare even with the new gap? That's emerged. Children are still much safer in this outbreak and adults particularly adults or elderly or have medical underlying medical problems in the vast majority of children are get back and still have minimal or no symptoms and even in the worst case the children who are getting a new inflammatory syndrome. We do have treatments. That are both supportive and help to decrease inflammation so I think if a child's having persistent Bieber's with Gi symptoms and otherwise acting. Very unwell the made to seek medical attention but overall it's still a very rare syndrome and most children recover. Well was supportive care. And the current. Anti inflammatory therapies. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much. Appreciate your time

inflammatory syndrome Cova United States inflammatory disease Thera Gun Kawasaki disease Boston Cova Nineteen Alexakis New York City respiratory distress Connecticut China Three Children Cova Oregon Bob Dr Kevin Friedman Harvard Medical School
175: How to plan a cycling season, with Matt White

The Cycling Podcast

1:02:18 hr | 1 year ago

175: How to plan a cycling season, with Matt White

"You listening to the cycling podcast in association with Rafeh the fastest clothing in the world tour the home same cycling with character Rydin Watch with Rafa in one thousand nine hundred nine as they partner e F education fast and canyons throb. We're all reliable. We are outside the Nutria in London's Kings Cross I've noticed on menu the cocktail menu in materia. The Moose SPA that there's Milano Llano Torino cocktail got very thin. It and various other ingredients warriors currently got blankets over our legs like old people. It's the old people. We are temperatures dipped to own London. The last couple of days and I was in the Berlin Child Comey side. I nearly. Yeah the free but a genie plus not surprisingly yes. It's been great here today whether it's been good recently but yes quite great Berlin Issues with sleep at the moment chops usually say you guys have frequently complained about Insomnia Poznan Awesome podcast privately trying. I've been experimenting with Intimate Fos thing and I don't know whether that's the reason why I'm not sleeping too anyway. Not Sleeping a toll. Not really no our two and I listen to podcasts. Try and get into cycling. PODCAST AST not not for the council but apart from you know it would even fall asleep tonight with us to to entertaining anyway. Okay Well Lionel we've come to pause what we've been traveling along with the last week. We certainly have week. One of our grand tour took us from Bristol to Belfast. Then fees in Jersey. Marcus Wrestler leggings. Well yeah the leader sparkly leggings were worn by ORLA in Belfast. On Friday night very memorable show great audience. Great Questions Really well very close to full house. I think it pretty much was a full house. House wasn't at the Mac in Belfast. Great Way to end the really good week of Live events. Thank you everyone who came to see us really appreciate how how many people turned up everywhere and then a couple of weeks a couple of days off at the weekend and then we were back in action on Monday night. The Arts theatre when we ritu we had Matt White Mitchelson Scott. Sports director came extremely entertaining. Few comments that we probably broke out shortly. Leave a few weeks before we broadcast Some of them but we will We'll hear from white later on in this episode. I see I signed with earlier in the day to talk about. How do they plan? The season isn't something I know you've always been interested in. Lionel high high is actually done when roster to one thousand nine or so riders and hunt. I hunt how many any race states two hundred thirty or something ridiculous. A big puzzle so we'll hear from him on that later on in their pursuit and Daniel. You are preparing to join. Join US for week two. which kicks off on Monday at the arts theatre where we'll be joined also Adam Blythe and raw telling worth is obviously just taken over barring Morita data and then we go to Cambridge Edinburgh Lester and Manchester all next week? We'll be joined again by Adam Blythe and she go on that. Some big transfers Chitose Cornelius. Joining us in mum on Mondays are a very few things left for Monday. And they aren't see if they're an for Edinburgh the Churchill Theatre. There's about ten left in Edinburgh so it's almost sold and go to the cycling podcast Dot Com to get tell these events preordered are because well while you're there Daniel. Yes very much looking forward to traveling on the team. Bus Rich very much looking forward to seeing whether you've prepared my I rider by silence and through a few weeks ago. The open qualifying Standard Golf. Course you're you're supposed to arrange around for me out in in Scotland should be great. Yeah we're talking about trade actually bought. It'll be be good looking forward to immensely and it's been great fun so far And this week I think at home to rest as much needed it. Isn't it Lionel. Quite a listen it's A. It's a strange rhythm. Isn't it being on the road. Traveling in the daytime and then kind of the nerve stop bubbling up for me anyway in Midafternoon and then the Adrenalin shot of being in front of an audience. And then the late dinner and well very truncated night's sleep a couple of times. It's not least because in Dublin. We were staying in a hotel called the Harcourt Hotel. And if you're in Dublin. You probably know that this is famously in a street which is basically dominated by Nightclubs that the downstairs of all hotel was basically a nightclub until three in the morning and Well certainly my very all this room. Why family very noisy and can't beat them join them lying quite tired by that? Wonderful moment in Belfast. At the end when somebody who was accused by a book introduced himself to ORLA assistant manager of the hardcore towse and she don't seem posting about that on instagram and there is a moment there where she she was taken in by that and very very funny indeed the big thanks to oil and Francois Tommaso for joining us last week and Francois saying the Marseille's every night so looking for similar from you next week Daniel what Song you've got you save but would you like me to the same. Italian I think are kind. That'd be caused Singley rally anthem on Monday when they were Chiro yacking communism here for almost as a promise. Bless your little montage from our live shows last week nine. Shall we chops. We've recordings from Belfast. Booster and Cardiff. You may not know this so I'm sure this has gone down in cycling folklore here but Richard Moore road the two of North many times and in fact with King of the mountains the the two of them in what year was that Richard Nine hundred. Ninety six I think six or seven. Doc You're checking your. Can you imagine this you were checking cycling stats on the tree. And there's no record of it of all of his pill Mara there is. There is no grand tears. no-one classic well that's very The one entry and posting for Richard. We're as Commonwealth Games DNA. I like insights only started after I finish. So they're still you know. I found actually Richard More in the city which is a Dutch side with lots of riders. But he's in the Desert Richard More. He's from Australia. A following on from the least deserved round of applause. Ever seasoning thing is all about all of you very much homecoming stage one. You've been targeting. Ever since route was announced earlier this year but I have to say. I'm feeling very much at home. I'm here to because Lunchtime I had. I had a very nice curry in our hotel restaurant. And it came with Rice. Non Bread and chips condemning. This is the place for me. I'm this of course. One Thousand Nine Hundred Nine Greg Lemond Team Jersey from the two of the frant- want Sean Kelly's Jersey from his years a cast of course Robert Miller and Greg Lemonde wore the Jersey striking. No David Moore of Australia when the stuck. Where's the US Postal Kit? You were right on to go. Wander the team buses and Hanley someone remarks today stage includes the longest continual climb in the UK. Bill I say. A woman taps me briskly on the shoulder. I thought I recognized you. You're from the PODCAST. Yes bugah you're done it again. I'm relieved when we get on the road. I have nothing against portions per se but it has always made me quite uncomfortable also kind of countryside. It'll eh English. People seem so formed. Rolling Hills Quin stone buildings perfect fences. There is something about supposed perfection of any kind that makes me deeply uneasy. Thank as we sit down to a mid stage of freshman stop and then was charming tea room. You could imagine. Richard comes up with a theory. You're uncomfortable with partial ORLA. Because you are cost Josh easy walks horse I protest the actual course ladies and the tea room bristle. I need to get out of here issue. You want me to sing. It changes everything doesn't they. Yes so that. If if you listen to podcasts you you might have heard it the crew lounge version of llamas but it went something that owns awesome jude. And I'm going to Latinos Johnny and Donna Song Long Theaters Little Little Song. In automotive donohoe combine. You feel asus older older as you screwed on Obon a girl Gino fees companion zone Seat were thumbing the better you mushroom show. It's been the new. CEO Any any use this week Lionel weeping scooped by a fellow podcast this morning net. Boating has the the news. Steve Cummings is retiring hiring at the age of thirty eight He was writing for dimension data. Of course this season he's lost race was stage five of the tour of Britain which went birkenhead to Birkenhead and being allowed for Merseyside. That was very much. He's home stage and unfortunately crashed with fifty kilometers to go and ended up in hospital. Had to have apponaug perations fractious Vertebrae so a at a disappointing end to what's being alone and times. They successful career. Who can forget the stage when that Cummings had moaned in the front a few years ago when he completely outfox the French nail on the run in the I feel that and equally memorably the win lack to pay all the following year two thousand and sixteen and that was the day when the kilometer kilometers to go banner Coloma to go banner fails one of the banners to banners collapsed onto Adam Gates? Steve Cummings had got through one. That stage also wanted to Britain. Of course any really made a specialty was sitting towards the back of the Peleton and and waiting for the opportunities and Catholic selecting his opportunities to get in breaks But if successful career is both road and time trial National Championship Fini Right to Commonwealth Games and I remember way back in one thousand nine hundred nine. The twenty years ago this summer he won the Eddie so in his memorial memorial handicap racer aintree up in Liverpool. And well that's a handicap race. And he's still the only junior to have won that event and later on that year he won the national junior championships. Somewhere in the middle and I was there that day. I'm in my to memories are of seeing Robert Miller who is one of the national coaches I think at the time Running running up the hill to chat to Steve Cummings who just won the national title so yeah a long career comes to come to an end net has Patrick's group. Yeah he also featured in our how to retire episodes last year for Friends of the podcast because he had started studying 'em as well as still riding riding his bike with a view to what was going to do after retiring. It's been interesting chops to observe from afar. This sort of process that he's gone through whoever the last couple years. I've spoken to him a lot races in the past two or three years and from sort of two thousand sixteen when he was at the back end of this kind of purple patch were he was winning a stage. Basically every world tour stage race that he was taking part part in very much in the same fashion Shen long range breaks and the up and winning on his own to then which then segues in two thousand seventeen which wasn't quite good and then the last couple of years. You've had a real sense that he was trying to figure out what his place still was if he did. Have a place still in the pilot on those telling. I suppose maybe poignant moment I'm in the Tour de France. This shame Po and there was a time Charlie and PO. And and obviously Steve's own issues with with how the last couple years the backdrop to that has been what the struggles of his team dimension data and this year there was a lot of uncertainty about whether he would or would not go to the different and and he was pretty much last minute and consequently hadn't really prepared in the way that he would have liked but one thing he had worked on was his all he thought he could concentrate on his time trialing and he expected to do quite good ride that day and he came over the line and and this often happens at the end of time trials riders. Don't I don't really know how well they've done. And before I was going to interview Steve A TV. But I think before the cameras that road. He asked me how he'd done. And I think the time gap from whoever I at the time was about two and a half minutes and I told him this visibly taken aback and it was almost a kind kind of penny dropping in in Split second and he sort of said to me blind me off. I'm not good as I think many more or I'm not as good as I thought I was anymore and it was almost as though as I say in that moment and certainly Over the course of the Tour de France he realized that his best was no longer quite as good as it had been a couple of years earlier on his decline had really started and was probably going to be inexorable from that point fastest clothing in the world tour the home of cycling with character right and watch with rather in two thousand nineteen as they partner e F education fast and canyons. Rob Thank you very much to our headline headline sponsor Rafeh very grateful to them as ever for their support of the cycling podcast and the other big news. I mean as you said line. Well not not an awful lot of news in the last week. Another retirement Daniele Benatti. The movie star veteran sprinter is retiring. And we don't do not twenty five Grand Tours County five run finishing sixteen of them. That's quite a stage. In each year on the tour and of Welter Twenty five grand tours quite a very very effective reinventing himself wasn't BANACCI's so the Kylie Minogue of the Pro Peleton a few honest initial lucky. Yeah he's locomotion initially moved mainly mainly in skeletal your turn in sprint finishes He was he's probably the most just about the most promising sprinter around when he started his career first couple of years but then he became much more of a Rhode captain in his latter years. And he's also lead out mine at various times of breakaway specialist. I I number one was. I should be so lucky. Bernardi Benatti didn't finish any of his first four grand tours so Not sure not sure your analogy works especially for you that analogy analogy. So oh I thought he and movie star will be together forever Anyway this is terrible Bernie Eisele. I mean the couple of other in writing from dimension. Data Steve Cummings Retard Bernie Eisele. 'em Don't know yet. I think he is looking for another team. But currently with the team and maybe force in retirement and Enrico Gasparotto the veteran Italian. Well he's Swiss. He's lived in Switzerland for awhile and he will be able eligible to compete for Switzerland Next Kalimpong Games or world championships. Bernie's any news on him. Danu I'm no actually rich. I knew for wild before mark cavendish she signing with the Bahrain. Morita was announced that he wasn't going with candidates to borrow marina. I know that he wanted to do another season. At least As a pro ride of nine news on that front of the moment I mean the other. The other news still rumbling. On is the ongoing tribunal into Dr Richard Freeman. We talked about that in last week's episode and we were recording las week after Shane. Shane Sutton's evidence and foresee. He didn't didn't quite loss today. Sabih two days up in front of the tribunal. Shane Sutton storm so we didn't get the major work the QC to Richard. Friedman didn't get to all her questions to him. which is perhaps unfortunate since we've had fill the the physiotherapist who was the man I mean the the the hearing into Richard Freeman? It concerns a lot of charges against him and I think nineteen of twenty charges have already been admitted by him but he's contesting a few of them and one in particular which concerns us and cycling finds move civil L. M. relates to the delivery of test or Gel back in twenty eleven Banned substance obviously fifty pound order from fit for sport sport. The regular nutritional supplier to cycling arrived at Velodrome. It was intercepted by Filbert the physiotherapist who on discovering it to to Steve Pizzas ahead of medicine. In who happened to be with Richard Friedman at the time and Phil apparently reacted with horror to this and I understand his first his first thought on opening it was. We're being up here I believe and he reported the CPT SIF pizzas told. Richard Friedman said it had been delivered an error and Pitas told them to send it back. Now it turns out that hasn't been delivered an error. I would still were no farther forward. I mean we expect to hear from Freeman. Understand Freeman will be appearing at the tribunal. This week he was unable to appear las week he apparently will appear this week. Am emp the number scenarios are possible that it was for soften as Richard Freeman claims that it was for Freeman as Steve Peters suggested or that tips for a writer as the GMC maintain on each of these scenarios possible. We don't know which one is true. The key thing is if it was for writer than a doping offence. I think the thing that struck me most from last week's hearings other than the explosive given I mean almost almost pantomime cartoonish Appearance by showing something and of course we going on on just the the written accounts and of course we Tom Kerry as well On last week's podcast he was out there. Hearing just painting a picture for us I mean sounds explosive and extraordinary extraordinarily But the thing once once the dust settled was once again. Richard Freeman is was too unwell to appear and take occur take questions the other thing was St Peters Dr Steve Peaches ahead of medical at British cycling during this period. Ah Basically saying that he was he. He felt like he was trying to solve a case. In which the two principal witnesses Dr Freeman and change. Something are both best unreliable and at worst lying and You know that really struck me because when did that when did that kind of occur to Dr St Peter's that those were the kind of people that were working in the organization he he was working. I mean that's that's so each each strand of this seems to suggest further questions signed as I said in last week's podcast and possibly didn't explain what I was meaning meaning quite well enough when I said that It felt like a missed opportunity. I wasn't having a wouldn't criticizing Mary. I ruled Dr Freemen. Qc because hurt you all these different to you. Know She's trying to do a job. That's very different to just finding out exactly what happened. She's trying to defend Dr Freeman and get the best possible outcome for her client. I'm whereas Rosen observer from the outside It would be great to think that that somebody at some point is going to lay out all of the evidence and put all of the evidence to test. And whether that will happen in this tribunal I don't know but the other question question is whether UK anti-doping pick this up after the conclusion of the tribunal if we don't if we don't get to the bottom of things so it still as far as I can say a as clear as really. Yeah he's really about the the chargesheet against British Cycling Team Sky over the sort of history of their success and how much is added to that charge sheet Already I think the strong evidence which has been who've or during this case that the recruitment at team sky and and to a certain extent British cycling was was sloppy and didn't live up to the promises that sort of came with the sales pitch of this team saw these organizations that showed incredible attention to detail. We know that because of and while the various writers who are the very star Trek to sportifs and staff that had to be let go by team sky when they did have a clear out when they had this sort sort of what. It wasn't really an amnesty was sort of A Truth and reconciliation process because you the individuals lost their job likes of Stephen. The young and Bobby Julich who admitted that they'd used doping products during their career and they were subsequently. I'm let go so. Then you add in the likes of Gatland is the Belgian doctor who was also a teams in two thousand eleven even the sloppiness of the recruitment. And you would have to question now with Richard Freeman should have been in a job there. And I'm Shane Sutton certainly a based on some of the stories. We're hearing about him although I would also stress and as we've emphasized before on the podcast and thought aren't there are those and there are many athletes of what we change certain in the past. Who would say that for all his vices and for the and his techniques probably didn't belong in Twenty-first-century Coast coaching set up and he was very talented getting the best athletes? He's in the right circumstances in certain circumstances. So you that that's one issue. But I suppose the thing that's really struck me watching watching it from afar chaps is is how much emotion people have invested in this case going certain the way. I think we will have to be honest with ourselves. Everyone does have to be honest with themselves and ask themselves you all ask temporary conclusion provisional conclusions being colored by what they Hope is the final outcome of this and I do think a lot of people and and want to see the whole British Cycling Team Sky Story Edifice am crumble. And that's leading to some hasty conclusions in the the interest of complete transparency. What do I think about the whole organization and the whole story at this point in time will my in Jewish and he's kind of changeable about its amorphous a moment in time? I think the where there were sloppy and I. I think that was a line. They had a line that they didn't want to go over as far as doping as far as medicine was concerned but that line and was maybe not in the place where members of the public thought that bat line was or in the place where maybe they've browse had suggested it would be so you know they were. They were going to stay within the law but it was going to be their interpretation of the law however don't mind traditionally still that we don't have enough evidence to suggest that the worse some I'm wide ranging doping program or even the there was any kind of doping program in the sense of using testosterone to enhance. It's for example team leads performance in the in the Tour de France. But Y- as I say that is very much a provisional conclusion. I think it's from. Our point of view is important and to be right not to be not to be the first or not not to be quick and to make judgments about this. We have to be patient and I I think unfortunately everyone else has to be patient. As well. These the facts kind of reveal themselves as more information becomes available allows this case in particular goes on. I just win slightly when you know I see people make the leap from okay. This looks a little bit a little bit amateurish and you know. They're obviously disagreements and obviously politics two. It's all a facade and marginal gains what we the term that we journalists have actually used probably more than the the actors in themselves. How's the browsers and so on? That's all complete rubbish and and Bunkum saw a blog or an article written by someone whose opinion actually very much respect Steve. Magnus the athletics coach. Who worked with Alberto Salazar and became a whistle blower in athletics. But you know he's not a psyching specialist and he wrote a pretty measured piece in las well. Last week I think. Sort of suggesting that Maybe marginal gains and what been talked about as marginal. Oh gains were kind of emperor's new clothes but we've had hundreds of conversations with people over the last ten years over the life span of of mtm Sky who have no real reason to to extol the virtues of the technology the know oh how the savoir-faire they have been using but have have done so continue to do so and that doesn't mean that. If someone mentioned in fact they drink pineapple juice interview. That doesn't mean that that is a game changer. For example the fact that they were times when they spent ten more days altitude institute another teams in season that might have changed the outcome of races and all of a hundred things that they may be. Try Try to try to do differently from other teams. Maybe only fifteen did have an effect but there was also a placebo effect and I also think. Think the over the past two or three years. We've seen teams catch up and it's got and it's harder for teams guy to now any us to employ and Gaining advantage from from those minor details that maybe did bring them advantages in the first few years but at the heart of this is Richard said from the beginning really really. This is a story of a breakdown in relationships a falling out and I think back over the twenty years. I've been covering this four and think there's a sense sense of inevitabilities with that when Shane something is concerned. Now you know I. It's it's easy to sound wise after the event but I mean I've never worked in elite sports. I don't know firsthand the kind of environment you know. The current level of sacrifices required that the the the Abrasive You know sometimes love hate relationships but I can kind of imagine just from the way that another sport I fall. I football works. You I- managers who well around Ferguson. One of the best in the business kicking a boo across the room and cross dressing room. So David Beckham above the I saw in order to give the hairdryer treatment. These things are there. Glamorize glorified as being part of the part of the the operating manual for people who want to drive sports people to greater performances. And I think Shane something. WHOA is was an abrasive character? He someone who you know. He's he's he's bite can be as bad as he's box. Sometimes I always. I had the feeling that he would have favorites. You know there are. Athletes have spoken very highly out of the way that something to work with them over over the years in the certainly the British cycling Olympic Program. But there are also people you know one or two people. I know who who barely want to mention his name in regard to their own achievements achievements and who suffered through for the sake of their own careers despite. Shane Sutton not because of Shane. Sutton and I think the thing that puzzles hustles me. I suppose he's you know the the the fact that both teams sky and British cycling. Something's methods good bad. God indifferent were tolerated because for a period they got results. And I think that that's the kind of the uncomfortable truth when we get to. The end of all of this is not a culture. Gotcha with allowed to operate because it was successful. And well we've seen that can be very little coincident surely elite as soon as Shane was sacked for effectively misconduct. Things that the how the call Tumbler. What a what a law people said second and somebody? I spoke to yesterday Quite you know involved in the in the staff there said that went. They've Steve Steve. Peters were there cycling cycling. Shane was manageable and it was really when those two left. Things unraveled very spectacular and Shane became came the man in charge with nobody managing him keeping him on a leash and things did unravel and we saw how unraveled and you know he he was site for bullying and in effect for sexism and all the rest of it that that's what he lost his job over so that's not a revelation that's not that wasn't something we learned last week in the trump. We knew already we did but it will want. It was getting results. No one was speaking out it was it was all in inverted. Tacoma's fine wasn't a and I think that's the that will when all of this is is digested might sit leashed comfortably with with a lot of people we have to scale that one tent's he'll it doesn't exist in reality. People are not either ends of scale. I mean even Shane Sutton no of course and also you know harsh. Being spoken to harshly some people react differently. You know. Some people don't don't particularly mind some people it works and expose them on and some people. Don't enjoy that and. I think that the problem is that. If you have a one-size-fits-all culture Well Komo Shane. Something's way or the highway probably wasn't sustainable. Should algebra cycling PODCAST team cars back of the factories. That's the PK. The Voice Radio tour at the Tour de France. Two reminders. To tell you that this episode is sponsored by Harry's and you can get started shaving with Harry's today by claiming your trial set for three pounds on one thousand five. It's an appealing company to me. Harry is even though. I don't actually use that product casino but you work clean-shaven quite recently experiments and not quite quite stably stubbly. But not quite egg like not quite egg like no thanks. Richard Jeff and Andy two ordinary guys who were fed up with the price of raises. They started Harry's and they knew that the only way they could ensure the quality they want people it was to buy their own factory so their business model is based on just taking a bit less profit for themselves but still offering high quality razors for a fat price. And well you can contest out the Harry's trial set and judge for yourself with the White Tedo comic handle five precision engineered blades with lubricating strip. Rich lathering Shave Gel Gel and the travel blade cover. Richard you were smooth and allow a half of your face with like yeah. I've been using them. Ever since they began gone are their association with cycling. podcast so very happy customer. And if you do want to take that next stat. Line having experimented the STUB. Luke am I can recommend them so maybe I will. Maybe I will I shows next week. Watch feel naked on. Stay off. I was completely completely act like anyway. support the PODCAST and get your trial set delivered to you. You'll get the razor handle the five Blake Cartridge foaming shave Taylor travel blade cover and go to harrys dot com forward slash cycling. That's Harrys dot com forward slash cycling. Go there right now and you can get your trial except for just three pounds ninety five just before we hear from white who joins US on stage at the arts theatre earlier this week got a couple of other things coming up at the November episode of the Second Podcast Feminine. Is I later this week. And that includes onto Cecilia attribute fake and also I kind of retrospective feature on the Bulls domains team. The two sponsors are pulling out on the team shooter a little bit uncertain than they have been the best team. You are probably probably be the greatest ever women's cycling team and so We look back on on the teams history to date with some former writers current writer Christy mattress and the team. Boss Danny Stam and that's interesting I think it's myself rose manly and ORLA Chenevey with podcast feminine. On next week we'll be the latest episode of service chorus by the psyching. podcast with Tamale and lizzy banks and rich in that feature on both. Almost you mentioned the fact that from January I read this yesterday and speed limit on Dutch. Motorway he's GonNa be one hundred kilometers an hour. Did you mention that didn't mention that. No it's not relevant none. Well there is. There's a tenuous link. The Netherlands His team we'll they had to mention that I was so taken aback by that. I thought save it for this week's podcast and get your reaction to it and the most extraordinary thing about it is is that a public officials in Netherlands have have been quoted as saying. They're well aware they'll probably be more accidents because people that we bought and they'll be on their phones very aristo miles Daniel. Let's the sixty miles an hour. Of course I know it is well Netherlands is Country Tree we admire for cycling culture and actually one of the interesting things in that little feature on them as Lucy Martin only for the team for a year here but she was very interesting on the Dutch culture and around cycling women's cycling particular from what she says. It's no accident or coincidence. That and women writers have consistently been the best in the world and because it sounds. I mean it starts links to the discussion. We're having just before the break of British cycling. Sounds like a very very harsh and performance oriented culture and and it took me by surprise but she also feels that she gained from it personally but again it might not work for everybody So we'll hear from white sports director Mitchelson Scott. Of course I and I sat down with him and the other day. Just ask them about the process of planning the season. How do you allocate writers th- races partly? This was inspired inspired by. I shared a car with him. The two of Lombardy where. You've songs his fellow sports rights as a racist that were coming up and how they were going to fill the roster cassette writers who were injured or finish their seasons already and it seemed like a very complicated jigsaw puzzle and Kington Ohio. They plan the whole season from us. Oppose the winter onwards. Here's what he said. We're in the the off season and imagine one of the big tasks for you as planning planning for next year. How how does that process star? You've got twenty twenty-nine writers them. How many Co Hyphen R.? Begin to allocate lamb. I am too races. Yeah I think it all starts on the calendar poor This show build it before for the Tudor France. France for For Nick she you've got a pretty good idea of WHO's dying who's going and then you then. It helps main to look for the Gaza off off the off. And then you're looking for the for the gaps in the calendar where we need to reinforcements. Then once you've got that final the final couple goes signed these days is I think we've last couple of years. We've all been done by before the tour started. I think account remember who was the last one to use on the Publi on resorts and I'm pretty sure he was done. Pre toured France. Until you start to over that I think those days along on roster your calendar and then because I have been doing this role for every year and this year. What what the goal is capable of doing and then if flu have discussions with with you sponsor your general manager and you know what the team and then you build a calendar around that obviously let me start with the K- goeas having discussions with those guys already midseason at towards the end of the season last year? You you white. Sometimes you wait for the rail of the tour and the zero to coming by here. We go after the course the the cost of the course. And you've got to adapter but everyone everything's different and then you stop set some planning. Why and then you've got to fill the gaps with all the rices that a non well tool this Spanish rice and smaller ices usually? You've got a relationship with the raw deal. Dave written to you and asks confirm your participation couple of Spanish races chase a little bit of owed money from the east brought and basically threatened. We're not coming back until the apprentice. Two thousand eighteen and nineteen participation fee. And then you're Y and then what I do is a calendar. And then I'll send that to the coaches get some feedback from the coaches look. It doesn't always fit perfectly all you've got to you. Got To make some adjustments. We have actually and we had our camping October. The week of Lombardy where we sit down with each awesome. What they'd like to chase next year usually pick a pretty good? There was a couple of guys. This year went for granted that I didn't expect which major had to adjust my planning trenching one K.. Go I he changed it. Who wants saluted with different Rice program that affects a lot of other people? Because you booting people up from your prioritize and one little change does the difference. And that's that's what the calendar set that's before the season starts and he wants to season starts. It's a jigsaw puzzle mixing and matching with injuries illnesses. And whatever might change you schedule. I must've jigsaw puzzle where the pieces are kind of constantly. Moving around on how to what extent are are right. The writers I mean I'm I'm imagining that there are certain ways on the team who you are able to tell you these other races. I want to do how far diamond designed as I go in terms of you know the caliber of the writer. To what point does the writer have to fit into your shot. You're delray right nor do you give each writer the opportunity. It's a maybe say I'd like to do a certain race or or is it more fluid than the it's really individual and they'll be happy does have because then want arise Kalama. But if the if we think attainments actually yeah this negotiation as well and there's not two way you going directly against what some artists want some guys transients different different cows. Maybe not maybe not this year with the young guys honestly. You're not give them much choice sneak because then I with manage their career especially the lease and especially the young ause. You won't have an idea of what capable of and I'm very cautious in in the first year or two until you get to know Roy I'll give them a pretty low at program and Alania Chalk the program harder if I could say the handling midseason old old. I'm in the midst of Rawdon to Legos and giving him a calendar up until July on the no on meet with all the waters either in Switzerland off riots Royal Slovenia again and give them because by middle of the. We've talked to Franson got a much better audio for team. And then for the young boys honest this Cape Program or some bars might be improving at a rate of knots Allah. The ice is when I came through and and then it'd be moved onto a hotter program for the taken off the season. And I mean how do you do this. The use excel you know. Do you have an adult come in on the computer. You're always always tinkering with his shared with other sports directors and general manager as well. Yeah definitely the Osgood a law document which only marketed. But good because it is a pretty complicated. And it's two hundred forty rice dies with twenty eight athletes We have one for the other ones for staff and vehicle movements which is crazy one fleet of vehicles moving around but people who have access to calendar or have the other six directors general manager made you team and heads. When you're the head mechanic is is well? The doctors haven't got access. Doctors donate that they need to know something in Alaska and the joy I mean is a process that you quite like I really do i. I do It's I spent a lot of time on the calendar and what I do is also put into those races of chasing some it's Cleveland cleave when the director's guarded that Rice they can go back and look at the the Individual Rod Plans Tame Plan. So we've got a clear goal of when you win with the teams and then the other spoke swift is Gong. Take over from there and and those goals will targets. We'd sit for that rice and I mentioned I heard. Obviously it gets more complicated towards than the year when guys are tired or injured am or I for other reasons ended their season early on. I think towards this this year you saw you saw low. I think everything is limping towards the end of the season on not sided very complicated. You were having conversation with sports starts is about how you good even fill the roster for some reason yeah we we were traveling pretty good. Oh year and Look at aldars. Rice lists than any will to attain because of ASS sponsors French saints have to all the franchises and and Britain Belgium teams through. Bill tries to say that derisively. Choose there really you know. There's no pressure from school to dust to Rice varieties psych Moi. Roy will I think I looked at the end of Asia. There isn't a rotter in the top. One Hundred Rotas Rice dies in Martin so I think the maximum she was seventy four F and a lot of averaging the sixties and what we're saying is more specific nick targeted. Training List is competition. But we had a bad Ronald Watts Week of the season and I think we lost three goes out with injury and the week free Lombardi which then puts us in a bit of a whole full Guangxi and Japan and Lombardi and because already had goes on hold is for three weeks. I'm going to bring you. I wasn't going to bring ball. Go back into rising. WHO'd already had two or three weeks off and goes on hold is in exotic locations? We did very much limp last through last couple of weeks but I think must finish science use dossiers and to fill the gaps and even without stage as we had three Rian hands on decks last couple of weeks difficult from for the team. I guess for the guys laugh to our children are bigger burden but also with the race organized and we're talking about Aso is is on those tricky conversations that yes I do. The guys voice who started in January strike starting at one hundred percent so I deliberately shut the season's early so so no-one no-one Roy's twitter it under wind possible championships and low. That was finished in Canada or even before so does rodion months nearly ready to get back on walks. If you'RE GONNA if we're going to be waiting to rice in in the second week of January you said you not rising in the middle of October so the guys who who you'd have to fill the gaps glossiest little bit lighter had a big mid saved. Brian will come off the wealth term. Still running with some forms we managed we managed. And you mentioned the next season's all almost done. I mean you start not documented document for the tour. Find your thinking. Even the tour is your mindfully focus on the tour. It was fully focused on the tool because I new. We'll pretty much we had one spot will non. That will be cake so yeah it was but in between the GIO and the a tool. It's a busy period. And I remember in the possible ways to off the tour and because of the market is getting up early now it was really fill doing in-between the GIO and the tour and then popping industry rices and building a calendar to a necessity otherwise miss about because Teams getting million investing in talent. Nafta I guess what I was thinking about. This was thinking right kinds. Let Me Kill Navy and Trenton. Gone Nine those guys who leaders they can win races. They're very talented. How do you manage them? Give them enough approach entities to keep them rewarded or or incentivized for those while also depending on them and the team rules that they do. Yeah I think it's all about relationships with us with relationships. Everyone if you don't give a young boy what he what he perceives as a calendar where he thinks he's getting communities it's either he will look or he'll get pushed from a manager. Luke Luke elsewhere the smallest and the youngest go just as important as the biggest goal is I think we look at the amount of rice is one over the last seven years. Maybe she was thirty five from eleven or twelve different people. Oh so we. We're not at the very latest finding the much winds. This was five or six from PIRATA. Was I think it was out of nights in seventeen fog Wednesday troy and endow. But there's lots of guys who won rises and that is no one in this thing to put their hand and say. I didn't get a chance to go for a win. It didn't that didn't go looking for it hot enough and nothing. That's the reason why we've got one China next year and we haven't had too many challenges in general some of your happier but I mean it's a sign of a settled team a well-balanced team that you're happy with it looks sometimes you've got to go to freshen up the road stuff and we'd had to do that the last couple of years because we we've just had some older artists then you gotta move them on It's it's it's quite some of you can do i-it's with his team and finished it. Forty years of age and tourists with some work for everyone and I think if you go a seasonal too long with some of those. You've missed that next wife and you've always really thinking I'm thinking of getting results for next year and wise thinking what have we got to twenty twenty one. Oh who's next. WHO's xanax? Wife Jay Siegel ex-wife classics and it's a weird sport in the factory is not too many teams sponsorship for more than two years. Three so you you you have any plans. The team still exists exists in threes time. and IT'S A IT'S A. It's a weird way to work but that's the model is offering is unfortunately credit. And that's you gotta work within the boundaries. I mean any use on the sponsorship Jay Ryan but the Jiro and he said there'd been some things on while at the same time you know he's always said that there's no threat the team Atala. He's happy to to carry on for it but is there any news. You're aware of this and things in the point and and hopefully we can announce them for the start the next year but we've got a very very loyal earner and I think what Jerry is looking for is is looking involvement in what he would love as first the foreign sponsor that that that suits what we want to achieve and it's sustainable that we're gonNA have a sponsor of Phoenix five to ten years. And then he can take more exit fortunately for us it's been incredible. ooh incredible sponsor and since Arca he personally and And Scott have really stepped up and and I will continue without a a major key sponsor because Jerry and next year old Grand Thurs again with the brothers in particular. Yeah definitely I definitely Hyphen Jira on the tour we supposed to the water but for the GM on the tour. I think we'll run a prison with them but to the cycling podcast is supported by science. In Sport. Science sports fueled by science. Thank you very much. Sciences Sport for their support of the cycling podcast very much appreciated and the twenty five percent offer is still available at Science and Sports Com with the code S I hi it. S CPI TWENTY-FIVE S. I S C P twenty five science spore dot com looking forward to seeing some people from science and sport author of Short. They aren't feature next Monday Monday. We heard from Matt White before the break their chops. And I don't know what you I mean. s. some nuggets as ever when white talks he was He offers a low of interest insight. You know the the fact that has writers race fewer days than any other worlds not that they're not tied to racing their whole races Because they're an Australian based team was interesting. I thaw and yeah that whole process of putting the spreadsheet together. I was surprised at how early he starts at. You know before the Tour de France. He's tinkering with all the time. No one else can editor apart from wait extraordinary stuff. which I like the talking podcasts? dropbox isn't that allow and what to delete anything. That's that's slightly different. Actually tiny you did delete L. O.. defiles didn't your whole archive once. Yeah night about science to drop the kind of proves. The point is as dropbox support managed to retrieve all my fuse with the action. Haagen Berman's team is a good system. Because you could imagine. Writers going in and just deleting the least favorite racist deleting himself from the DUNKIRK. They'd be popular ones. Yeah Matt White would be thinking. He's got everything sorted then. No one turns up at the four days of Dunkirk. Reach as far as planning is concerned and that team. What's really going to treat me? I think next year is to see and maybe more to as well. Or maybe a couple of the coaches Mitchell. Chilton is to see what sort of adjustments they will have made as far as the gates presume consent because as playfully rigged why about about this one of our events or I think Arvin actually world championships the last two years unfortunately. They've have kinda fallen short of their expectations. As far as the general classification in major tools is concerned. I think how in five out of six major tours with the eight brothers so we saw him gates obviously one two thousand eighteen Vuelta but he lost the Jersey spectacularly in the two thousand eighteen Adam. Yates's toured France in two thousand eighteen. Didn't go too well. Simon Yates his two thousand nineteen. Jiro Wasn't quite what he hoped and expected. It was going to be same with Adam. Yates is two thousand and nine thousand nine hundred France and while the wealth that they didn't really have a leader so I'm sure they know there's some work to be done as far as timing. The form peaks is concerned. and Yeah I can enlighten. Because he told us on Saito tonight. Actually that next year will look very similar to this year. Siamese will go to the Jiro and and then also go to the tour probably not finished the tour because the Olympic road race is a big target for him. Next year and again I will will lead the team at the tour but I think that you know the following year there will be some changes and I think the following year. We'll see Simon. Yates target the tour and Yates might become more of kind of one day in one week. Stage Racer I suspect. Am I think that the differences between them are becoming more more apparent as they serve mature and in terms of temperament. It looks like Simon. You know has the ability but also the temperament for three week tour and another the might become evolve into slightly different type writer and that seems to be the to your plan and Jiro again for some. I'm year state. Sheer toured France and twenty twenty one in a similar vein Astonished I think Tim Decisions. I've lost couple of weeks when they about who's going to leave them. Where in twenty twenty? I think they've decided science going to be. The leader of the Jiro and Superman is going to go to the tool for the first first time Maganga Lopez is that right now. He's right. Yep his first Tour de France so he can flattered to deceive their as well. Oh uh-huh sorry you're finished between third and nine sorry didn't mean to France for him. Cool the response time time trialing and the time trial on the penultimate day up to lap launch date belfi finally before we go rim. pull the doors funeral. This we talked to him with Francois last week but you you tweeted about him. Las Week Donyell. Just suppose he seems and one of these not hardly ageless because he was an old man but he was sturdy and and you know a robust looking carrots. There wasn't he and uneven. Despite his advancing years think it was quite a shock them especially as we don't see them so really the fronts to hear that he passed away. Yeah here we are looking very good health sort of France and didn't really you know there was no noticeable or there was no noticeable aging really over the last few years he sat every day and he's little kind of booth in the Tour de France village and was constantly being. Well he didn't say is being pestered he. He loved the attention. In fact I think we keep a day or two after his death I think they published republished an interview. Do they done with him in two thousand eleven and he talked about The fact that his biggest fear in life was to no longer be be recognized even on a micro level in the eleven months of the year. When he wasn't at the Tour de France he put his Co. on and go out you've got out of his front door every morning hoping and praying that someone would recognize him and ask him for an autograph and I suppose that says is a law about his? He the reciprocal relationship between him on the French public. They loved him and he loved. He loves them for him. He seemed to have no downside. Has Great success in life was to be loved on admired Rather eat didn't have the sort of fame that maybe comes with a winning You know I you know. I think that he embraced that that sort of a status that he hunted. He has as Somebody who was loved for not winning much. Shall we wrap things up their chops we shall. I'm looking forward to next week Assay tickets still available at the cycle and you can also go there to order our new ground through diaries. Click on book and you can get delivered anywhere in the world. Just on on Monday's event at the arts theatre in Leicester Square literally around the corner from Leicester Square Tube station so very convenient if you are in central London on Monday and if if he came to our show this Monday just gone. Don't worry we don't doing the same thing we've got different lineup down. You will be with us of course as well Wrought ailing worth new. You boss at Bahrain Morita McLaren as an Adam Blythe of course who mate Six part series the item blind interviews force at the start of the year and well. FBI Happy at Chiro coming from Chiro. Of course he'll be he'll be bossing in on an buzzing off again. I guess yeah well. It'll be different. So yeah if you if you enjoyed Monday Come along again from back until Monday. Lionel thank you very much. Thank you Richard. Thank you Danielle. Thank you jobs just finally before we go this week a little personal message for me pancreatic cancer. UK are the official charity of the year partner for the right London one hundred. That's a potential write in London. One hundred twenty twenty and the the charities close to my heart. My mother passed away with traffic. Cancer in two thousand five is an awful awful disease and I'm a proud supporter of pancreatic cancer. UK I will. I will be writing. Ride London at to raise money for pancreatic cancer. UK Next year. And you you can get place. Enwright London through pancreatic cancer. They have just one hundred places remaining on their offering cycling podcast listeners. Who Join me on the right? A fifty percent registration fee fi discount. That doesn't mean you have to write with me. Be quite slow for a lot of people. Just use them. You can write the whole hundred and the whole route. I'm gonNA write the whole GonNa just I do half of it. I just use the Code Moore Fifty M. W. O. R. E. Fifty sign up at pancreatic cancer dot org dot. UK forward slash. Right London pancreatic cancer dot org dot. UK forward slash. Right London aw.

Dr Richard Freeman writer Shane Sutton Komo Shane US Daniel Steve Steve Jersey Belfast France director Lionel Matt White Jiro Dublin Switzerland Simon Yates UK London
Taking Lives: Dr. Michael Swango

True Crime Brewery

1:24:46 hr | 1 year ago

Taking Lives: Dr. Michael Swango

"True. Crime contains disturbing content related to real life crimes. Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome crime burry. I'm Jill and I'm dick before we get started today. I just wanna mentioned everyone about last week's tobacco. Why I don't know that was a deductible. Well, it woke me up in a panic in the morning. Sure. So if you listened to the podcast right away in the morning or if your podcast app. Just automatically downloaded it. The first audio file that went out was incorrect. And it was on ended actually was worse than on ended. It was a mess. So if you didn't like it and would like to listen to the real one all you have to do is delete it in reloaded in your podcast app in I apologize. I just messed up. That's all sweep the provision perhaps. Yeah. It was a long episode. So it was a lot of work was almost two hours. But anyway, I apologized for that. And let's move on with today's episode. Okay. This is about a doctor. Yes, they know. So hopefully, you'll give us some insight. I'm hoping the case of physician Michael Swango, not only exposed the dark side of a man who had taken an oath to do. No harm. It also opened our eyes to a professional environment where doctors accepted, the word of fellow physicians over the word of nurses and patients. Even as there was evidence of grossness behavior piling up Michael grew up in Quincy, Illinois, and he graduated as valedictorian at the Quincy Catholic boys high school, he served in the Marine Corps and he received an honorable discharge. He then attended Quincy college followed by southern Illinois University School of medicine. His troubles were I noticed in medical school. Although he was a brilliant student. He preferred to work as an ambulance attendant rather than concentrate on his studies, even at that young age, she had an odd fascination with dying patients, Michael Swaine goes patients, often ended up coding or suffering life threatening emergencies and several did die on expectedly. So join us at the quiet and today for a true story that actually is stranger than fiction. We're calling it taking lives the crimes of Dr Michael Swango removes beard today or good, Ohio beer. I heard lots of choices. I think Ohio. Was one of the first states where he was killing people. So I picked plus I wanted to do this beer first time, I had it was mule Dover to me by our friend. Dave, it's called hop juju imperial IP from fat heads brewery love the name anyway, a great name. So this beer is a big old imperial IP or you'd like to call the WPA copper-colored big, huge Whitehead. Nice lacing one of those pretty beers. It has a citrus fruit aromas and tropical fruit and pine. And then in the taste some lime some grapefruit enter the pith of the grapefruit that bitter, more bitter part. Yeah. Yeah. Little papaya. There's the tropical fruit and some pine massive beer the nicely bidder. So you gotta be a hop head to like this one. I think so you have not one of those new fruity ones. This is more of a traditional good tasting beer. Okay. Just as a funniest side. I always thought that that bitter taste was the insecticides on the grapefruit that made it tastes that way. Oh, no. Yeah. I did. But now, you're educating me. Sure. All right. My pleasure. You've done it a lot. Let's open the beer. Okay. At the quiet end today, quite a few people around. Hopefully will meet some interesting people. I mean, that's my favorite part of sitting at the bar. Is you meet new people, and they're interesting or bring the whole point. Yeah. I always go off when I go to places in those TV's all over the place. He don't like that are don't like that. I wanna sit at the bar and have conversations with people. Well, that's the thing. I mean, I'm a big TV watcher, really? But I don't like that it interferes with conversation. And that's why we don't have one in our bedroom because I feel like it interferes with the marital relationship, not to go into any more detail by think a TV in the bedroom is a bad idea. I made you blush. You got me there. Okay. All right. Why don't you? Go ahead and start our story down here at the quiet end. Okay. Michael was the second son of Muriel and John Swango hick sailed at the private Catholic boys high school. He attended. He had brothers Bob, and John they attended public schools. But Michael went to the Catholic boy school because his parents considered him to be gifted. He was a model student made the honor roll each year, he took an unusual interest though in the holocaust which had been covered in his world. History. Course now that might have been early red flag. I could've been, but let's be honest. A lot of us are fascinated by horrible things that doesn't mean we like it. All right. I'll give you that. But yeah, it's something to consider. He was also a talented pianist, and he spent evenings playing classical music for his mother. So here's another guy that was his mother's favourite. He can do no wrong. She would eventually become estranged from her husband who was quite an colic. But in her mind, Michael could do no wrong. So we might be looking at another golden boy. You know, she was in denial as it turned out. I mean, we'll see this. Yes. Yep. So in his nineteen seventy-two yearbook picture, there's Michael and his band uniform smiling with thick blind hair. His ambition in the yearbook was to be an Illinois state trooper, but as class valedictorian he was sought after by top colleges he decided to attend Millikin university. Just a small private liberal arts school in Decatur Illinois about a three hour drive from Quincy and he received a full tuition scholarship in music. Now as he had in high school, he excelled at Milliken Ernie nearly perfect grades during his first two years during his first year a girlfriend broke up with him. It typically warrant a sports jacket the class, but after the break-up he began to dress in military fatigues, he then painted his car in camouflage greens. So no friend asked him about this. He said he planned to join the military, and he was fascinated by guns. So maybe the break up with the girlfriend set something off in him. I'm not sure. Yeah. It seems like it's kind of a moment in his life. Yeah. Like he can't have reacted to that. In a certain way. And about this time is when he first mentioned his interest in taking pre med courses. He began to show an intense interest in car crashes, and he would save gory photos in a scrapbook by the end of his sophomore year. He was spending more and more time by himself and that summer he left school and he enlisted in the marines. So Michael finished basic training at the marines. Boot camp in San Diego where he was trained as a rifleman and he earned the designation of a sharp shooter in nineteen seventy six he received an honorable discharge when he returned to Quincy after the discharge he was very fit and lean and he was carrying himself with more confidence. He announced then to his family that he wanted to become a doctor, and this, of course, was something that really pleased his mother she had worked as a medical secretary. So she really looked up to physicians. He then enrolled in pre med courses at the local community college. And then he had no difficulty getting admitted to the Quincy college for the following fall. With his near perfect grades at the more competitive Milliken as well as his exceptional high school record. He must've been one of the colleges top applicants but still after he was admitted he did make a decision to embellish his records on a form. He submitted to the colleges public information office he falsely claimed that he had received both LeBron's bronze star into purple heart when he was a marine. So I don't know why he felt compelled to do that because he certainly would have been accepted anyway. Who would have been right? But this was this was a compulsion in him. Yes. Always had to appear better. He did. So he was kind of a path logical liar in that respect. You certainly was now Michael abandoned music and became deeply involved in science classes, he had a double major in chemistry and biology, but in contrast to high school, he wasn't involved in any extracurricular activities, he did begin working part time as an orderly at blessing hospital in Quincy and became a certified emergency medical technician EMT during his senior year, he wrote a paper on the poisoning murder of a winning Bulgarian writer living in exile. In london. He was fascinated by the murder, which was poisoning by rice in that took four days to kill the writer so very fascinated with poison and during his senior year, he took the MCAT the Medical College admission test. And he applied to several medical schools. He graduated summa cum laude in nineteen seventy nine. Anyone the American Chemical society's award for economic excellence competition for admission to any accredited American Medical school in nineteen seventy nine was very intense. And it had been since the baby boom generation began graduating from college in the late sixties this kind of like that now too. Isn't it very competitive or heart? Think is way worse now might be her. When when I applied to medical school didn't seem that difficult to get admitted he at you were like the perfect kid on that. But now, it's almost like you have to have published papers. Yeah. Need to really be on the ball. You do. It's major in the mid school. I always joke about how I couldn't have gotten into medical school. These this day. That's not true though, it might not be. But I certainly hadn't published papers or anything. Well, I mean that wasn't something people were doing. I'm sure if that was the thing you would have done it. 'cause you did the thing you were supposed to do. That's you ROY guarded mood. Okay. But demand for doctors was strong and lucrative. Careers were almost guaranteed for the graduates, plenty of applicants with good records were rejected from every medical school that they applied to and many were even going to foreign countries. Like, Mexico was a common one. Besides needing outstanding grades in the pre med curriculum and the high MCAT scores applicants had to sit for a personal interview in which their maturity their commitment and their aptitude for medicine were judged. So Michael's mother Muriel was proudly telling family members that Michael had been accepted at several medical schools. But his classmates had speculated that Swango had been admitted from the waiting list because he moved into the dorms late along with students who had been admitted at the very last minute through the southern Illinois. That's the one he he went to. Yeah. So they guessed that Michael hidden performed well in the admissions interview because his grades were really good. And they all wondered what he would have answered when he was asked why he wanted to become a doctor because Swango had never mentioned to his classmates any interest in patients or helping or anything that most. Doctors would say they didn't have the stock answers ready. No, he was different certainly was now in medical school para follow Trie fascinated Swango pathology includes toxicology the study of poisons so that that might be tip off. Wei fascinated that's up his alley. Who study habits weren't very good because he's continued working for the ambulance service that he had started doing in college and is frequently unavailable in many ways, ambulance work seemed to be a priority to Swango. One of the first clinical sinement that medical students had was to take histories and perform physicals or h and peas as you call them on the hospital patients students would interview patients record their medical histories in do physical exams, then they would post the results on the patient's charts. So depending on the patient the procedure could take anywhere from half hour to ninety minutes or even longer. Doing adult medicine, and these people have empty problems, and it took me seven hours wants to do a history and physical as a student. Well, yes, what I say. Well, his classmates, though, they observed that swing was completing his entire rounds in less than an hour said X is that pretty extrordinary unheard of sometimes spending as little as five minutes with one patient. You can maybe get away with that as an attending physician, but a medical student you have to cover every base. So you tend to be far more thorough than anyone else? Oh, it was the same thing in nursing school like when you were a student who had index cards with every medication every side effect. Yeah. So that is extraordinarily that. He only took five minutes. He certainly wasn't doing what he was supposed to do not even close in. At least one case another student said that Swango had faked the entire right up which isn't surprising when you think of five minutes, we might have. And this claim triggered more concern about Swango with his classmates in their third year rotation students can choose their area of specialization, and it came as a surprise to many in the class when Swango. Concentrated his courses in neuro surgery. Now neuro-surgery is one of medicine's most demanding and highly paid specialties. All right. You're right. So competition for the internships, and residencies was very intense wasn't something that people expected this guy to go into know who's classmates and a lot of the physicians who taught him thought he was lazy uninspired person and weird and weird. Yeah. But there is a neurosurgeon on the faculty. Dr Lau where keizer who raved about Swango. He never criticize mangoes allege sloppy habits indifference to patient care and the two became inseparable. Swing a go the neurosurgeon when he made rounds and would go to surgeries Swingle even persuaded the nursing staff to page him on his ambulance pager whenever they learned that one of the neurosurgeons patients was about to be admitted. That way swang was usually on the scene before the surgeon, and even before sometimes the patients themselves now, of course, his eagerness made a good impression on where why keizer who believed to very pleasant and hardworking, and he thought swang goes patient write ups were excellent. I think he was pretty good at faking it while sure and you can put a whole bunch of bullshit into the right up, and unless the doctor the attending checks the facts, it looks like you've done a great job. And this is third year. So I think there would be some trust in him. You have to trust someone at that point. You must think they've done okay to get to the third year of medical school. But Dr case or was one of several doctors in private practice who also worked as clinical instructors, and he was very popular with students and respected in his field. The fact that he likes Swango really went along way to quash student concerns about swing goes competence. So this helped swing go out a lot or throughly would you've got someone on your side in a high place. Thinking this geyser lazy person not doing the job that you gotta highly regarded attending praising him. Sure. Yeah. Looks good said during the third year of medical school students were having much more contact with patients swing goes classmates. Notice that swing seemed very interested in even maybe preoccupied with the sickest patients the hospital had a large blackboard where they wrote patients names and the treatment information, and when a patient that Swango had seen died he wrote died and capital letters across the person's name other students found this distasteful almost as those Ouango was celebrating the deaths. So when EFI walls kindly patient that Swingle had been treating for an injury died. Suddenly after getting a visit from Swango he went ahead and scrawled died over her name. And when he was asked by another student, if he didn't feel bad that the woman had died. His answer was quite alarming. He said, no, that's. Just what happens that's feeling now. So swing Osun got this nickname double-o Swango like 007 licensed to kill and it was dark humor. But there was a lot of truth to it. We'll see of course, we certainly will so working with the emulates company would bring swing go into regular contact with victims of car crashes heart attacks and violent crime that was fellow paramedics many of whom foot highly of his work couldn't help it notice his unusual fascination with violent death. The hit all seen scrapbooks. They often so cutting out articles while waiting for an ambulance. Call. Now once a co worker asked him why he clipped and saved the articles Swango said if I'm ever accused of murder the scrapbooks will prove I'm not mentally competent. This will be my defense. That's pretty weird. It's very weird. And of course, they took it as a joke, but there's a lot of truth to it. I suppose he really liked to play games by hinting at his psychopathic tendencies when out of work security guard shot up McDonald's in California, nineteen eighty four killing twenty one people Swango watched on CNN, and he told his co workers every time I think of a good idea. Someone beats me to it. Now, the other paramedics hoped he was kidding. For years. He kept scrapbooks of newspaper clippings about grizzly car crashes in violent crimes he was also fascinated by Ted Bundy, and he expressed his happiness when OJ Simpson was found not guilty with maybe a creepy kind of self awareness. He wants said sometimes I feel. All I have an evil purpose in my life through words. But unfortunately, no one really took him seriously. But without his fixation on violent death. It would be hard to understand why he commuted during his first year medical school to work these twenty four hour shifts at an EMT job that pages ten cents an hour of the minimum wage needs think he'd be studying. Yeah, he enjoyed it. It was the thrill in it for him. Yeah. And Swango told his fellow paramedics that he could handle the schedule because he lived on only two to three hours of sleep her night. His co workers in the ambulance service were mazes. Swango would sleep for about thirty minutes. Then jump up and work for twelve straight hours often manic with energy, but his work on the ambulance did take toll when day he was so angry that he kicked in a cabinet door in the kitchen area, the engines headquarters and to know in surprise at least not to my surprise, his long hours also affected his performance as a medical student. Well, how could it not? I mean, most people in medical school. Just go to medical school or exactly yeah. And some of his fellow students notice he was poorly prepared careless and negligent it rush from one class to another interrupting his work whenever his pager offering ambulance run still when you got ready to prepare for internships and residencies postgraduate training. Swing ahead. A glowing letter of recommendation from Dr walk as her which he sent to about ten teaching hospitals. Even keizer was surprised putting go told him when Swango told him that he had been accepted for prestigious internship in neuro surgery at the university of Iowa, hospitals and clinics in Iowa City. So is post graduate career is secured. So he pretty much gave up any pretense of being interested in his medical studies anymore. He really indulged his sick facination at this point with car crashes and other emergencies Elliott left was this eight week rotation in obstetrics gynecology. This was a requirement, of course. Most students completed before their last year, and that they had to pass an order to graduate. But rather than taking OBGYN early Swango had opted for a more difficult surgery and medicine rotation. And he was already concentrating on neurosurgery students were also required to attend OBGYN surgeries like c sections in hysterectomies, but Swango never showed up all examinations in the rotation were conducted orally any missed most of those two. So the chief was rightfully concerned by swing goes complete disregard of the school's requirements. When she tried to locate him she was told that he was working as an EMT net kinda shocked her. She also heard that he had been banned from any direct patient contact on the ambulance, but she didn't ask why I don't know why she didn't when she finally contacted Swango. She asked him to do a history and physical on a patient who is scheduled to have a C section that day. So she saw him enter the patient's room, and he left just ten minutes later. She was surprised when he turned in really impressive three page right up on the patient. She visited the patient to ask about swing goes. Visit and learned that the woman had barely talked to swing go. He and done a physical exam at all either. So the chief resident took her findings to the OBGYN faculty, and they had a meeting to consider his status. The faculty members were appalled and angry at his misconduct as well as his dishonesty, which was really posing a threat to a patient's health. So they made the decision to fail swing go which meant that he wouldn't graduate in his class and that didn't sit well with him. No. So when he learned that he was gonna fill it will be GYN and wouldn't graduate. He was enraged. He hired a lawyer and administrators at the school were worried that he would sue the school. Then Dr Joaquin came to swang goes defense saying that he had been an outstanding student and the chargers he was Lazier hadn't done his. Assignments not believable swing professor pathology tax college became so worked up over the injustice of failing Swango that he literally cried. So he was able to get people on his side when he really wanted to. He was then a few students. Few his classmates also argued that the fail Swango was too severe punishment. It was noted that while medical schools reject hundreds and thousands of applicants they almost. Never expelled them. Once they've been admitted, well, I guess the experience of medical school ordinarily creates kind of a strong bond. So it was kind of stunning. When a group of swing goes classmates wrote a letter to the faculty stating that he was incompetent. He hadn't progressed it all during their years together. They said he showed no interest in the patients and his attitude toward medical education really seemed to border on contempt. None of this group felt that they would ever want swing to be their doctor. He was not in their view capable. A functioning as an intern. So time was running out. And they felt that he really needed to be stopped before he was out practicing, and that's unusual right? Because usually mid students stick together. Sure. Do just like doctors usually stick together and Beck each other up. So for this to happen, any go must've been really on the outs with classmates had to be super over the ad trite. Absolutely. So here we have kind of a problem, don't we? He's got a group of classmates it Phillies incompetent, his gut the OBGYN rotation that he failed miserably, but he has his supporters. Yes, doctors and a few students high up supporters, these doctors were high up, so I think their opinion probably mattered more than the group of students to be honest. Yep. Now, the student progress committee met may nineteen eighty two with ten committee members to students and faculty. In preparation for the hearing, the OBGYN chief resident had gone to the patient files to retrieve swang report on this is Aaron section patient, but had disappeared and it occurred to her that other reports by Swango had been suspicious. Also, she looked for some of them, but they also missing. So she reported this to the committee. She also testified about swang performance in the OBGYN rotation including absences, and presenting the evidence that he had fabricated at least one patients history and physical and other nations surfaced, including his work as an EMT and his facination with violence. But there was no reference to any suspicious patient deaths or to the double o Swango nickname. Nobody brought that up in the meeting. No. And then Swango himself appeared in his own defense. He seemed earnest and charming, but he denied that he had failed to examine any patients or removed any files he denied plagiarizing. Or fabricating this Zarian patience -ation p expanded hid no choice, but to moonlight as an EMT because his father died earlier that year, and he was the sole support of his mother and two brothers. Now. Most members of the committee, especially the two student members were unmoved when even called Swango bald faced liar. But if toxicology professor came to his defense, he sympathize with spangles need to support his family and said other students in the class or unfairly picking on him because he was different. So the decision to dismiss a student would require unanimous vote. Eight members voted to expel him one abstained and one voted to give them another chance. So he graduated there were negotiations between the colleges, lawyers and Swain goes lawyer. And there was a compromise. That had to be reached though, he wouldn't be allowed to graduate with his class. But he wouldn't be expelled either. He was. Required to repeat his OBGYN rotation. Any was also given assignments from some of the other faculties strictest professors in other specialties if he passed these assignments he would be allowed to graduate. If not he would be dismissed so at this point, he became a model medical student. He repeated the OBGYN rotation attended all the required surgeries in oral examinations in completed all of his assignments where one of the other fall-outs from this was that the hospital I was city rescinded his internship. So he had to scramble around right, right? And the director of the department of neurosurgery at Ohio State University in Columbus offered Swango a residency in neurosurgery, pending the successful completion of years, internship, in general surgery. So that year Ohio State one of the most prestigious residency programs in the country had received about sixty applicants for its neurosurgeon. Gery residents program and had invited twelve for personal interviews swang was one of them. And he was the only student offered a position. So at that says to me is he was really good at bullshitting. Yeah, he had to be. So he did graduate in April of nineteen eighty three and got a diploma in the mail, his mom. Miriam was spreading the good news of his graduation and his acceptance at Ohio State to family members shortly after his graduation. He was fired by American ambulance company. He was already on probation because he'd had violent outbursts, but he responded to an emergency. Where a patient who was in acute pain in having a heart attack was gasping for air and his instructions were to administer any emergency treatment called for and bring the patient in the ambulance to the nearest hospital. But instead he made the patient walk to his own car. And he told the patients family to drive him to the hospital themselves the family. He called the ambulance company and complained his behavior, of course, was medically unsound, and it was a clear violation of the rules. And he had no explanation for it. So he was fired. Or he must have been very fortunate that the patient didn't die his very easily could have put him in deep trouble. Yes. Now at a high oh state University Medical Center Swango joining elite group of medical school graduates for his first assignment as a surgical intern. As first rotation was in the emergency room didn't take long for some of his shortcomings to surface every doctor in charge of a surgical rotation. Evaluates the entrance at the conclusion of the rotation. Dr Ronald Ferguson, who's the doctor in charge of transplant surgery. Oversaw swang goes work for mid October into mid November. And he decided he was going to fail Swango because he didn't believe he was competent to practice medicine. Swaying. Also learned. At least one other of supervising physicians with remarks showed a fascination with Nazis in the holocaust. Some of the residents spent far more time with Swango than the attending physicians. Did also complained to the doctors on the FEC lay. That Swango is weird that covers a whole host of things doesn't it weird? They were more specific. But nothing really came of. It is the problem. So while making rounds residents give interns tasks and then they critique their performance whenever they criticize Swango he would drop to the floor and do push-ups then he could do hundreds of them. Remember, he had been a marine. So it was like he was still in the marines in this was his self imposed punishment. But this didn't seem appropriate for a doctor making rounds in the hospital. He was asked to stop. But he refused, and he continued this behavior. Just mystifies me. You're making rounds. So there's medical students interns residents, tending physicians may be a fellow in the program. So there's a flak of doctors doctors in training making rounds and to have one guy suddenly dropping give twenty five push-ups that's beyond strange. It really is. And it's just the beginning things get stranger, but let's take a minute here. Just to talk about our sponsors, then we'll get back to it. Okay. Today's episode is sponsored by ADT real protection when it comes to something as important as family safety. You deserve real protection from ADT for me. Real protection means the nation's number one smart home security provider is standing by. And there for you. When you need them. Real protection means having a safe and smart home with everything from video doorbells. Surveillance cameras smart locks lights carbon monoxide in smoke detectors. 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So in Swango was first hired no-one from Ohio State called anyone at his med school to ask why he graduated you're late. Remember he had failed the OBGYN rotation. So he headed take that into some other Simon snorted graduate. So he did graduate a year later than his classmates and supposedly he told his mom that it was a computer glitch that caused him to graduate late. And she believed it, of course, because he could do no wrong. That's right. No. No one seemed to have noticed that he should have graduated a year earlier than he actually did. But with a negative report from Dr Ferguson and other comments about swang goes behavior and attending physician called the associate dean for medical education. He was told that they should have seen warning signs and swang goes letter from the dean still knowing seem to consider terminating his internship. Not at all. In January nineteen eighty four swinger was warned that he had a failing evaluation from Dr Ferguson that might threaten his residency. The offer of a residency in neurosurgery was contingent on successful completion of the one year, internship, but swing oh did seem appropriately concerned at that point. Sure, he became very charming and humble any asked for strategies to overcome the negative review and continue with this residency. He appealed Dr Ferguson's evaluation to the residency review committee, which was made up of doctors from the surgery department and the committee met later that month to reevaluate him knowing the men time Swango found girlfriend. This was a nurse Rita do mice. The relationship surprise many on the nursing staff because reader, let's face it. She wasn't a catch for a handsome young intern. Plus she was divorced with three young children. She always complained. She worked the night shift got home at seven in the morning. Just as a kids were waking up Rita said. She was never able to get enough sleep which might have been some accounting for her bad moods. Well, yeah, I can see that wouldn't be an easy life. But she really did seem to blossom in a relationship with Swango. She still kept mostly to herself. But she seemed more confident and her overall attitude toward life seemed to improve. Of course, she'd been going through a difficult time, but Swango was very supportive. And she also said he was great with her kids in early February head nurse an Ritchie reported for the morning shift and she was assigned neurosurgery patient named Ruth. Barrick now Ruth was a pleasant elderly woman who had been admitted to the hospital. Couple of weeks before she had fallen in hitter headed home and suffered a cerebral hematoma. So her condition was serious, but it never been considered life threatening until she suffered a respiratory arrest. In nearly died on January thirty first just after swang goes appeal of this negative valuation had been rejected. No one told an Ritchie what had happened. But on January thirty first another nurse named Deborah. Kennedy hit given Ruth Barrick her breakfast and assessor, and she seemed to be doing. Well, she was sitting up in bed. She was talking and responding appropriately around nine forty five AM that morning, Dr Swango had come into a room, and he told Deborah Kennedy. I'm going to check on her. Deborah thought this was weird because the doctors rounded early like around six thirty and they didn't return unless there was a problem. But you know, he's the doctor. He's the boss so she left him in the room with Ruth Barrick alone. Yes. About twenty minutes later. Deborah turn to check on Ruth Swango. Gone in the patient seemed to be asleep. But when she got closer to the patient. She noticed that she was barely breathing and she was a bluish color. So Deborah did what you do. She called a code over the intercom and doctors came rushing to the room Swango was the first one to respond, but others to began working on this resuscitation and after forty five minutes her vital signs had stabilized and she was transferred to the ICU. She recovered and she returned to a regular hospital room. But then on February six in Ritchie was giving the same patient Ruth bath. The patient was alert talking. Cheerful and seemed to be recovering but Ritchie noticed that her central Venus pressure was low in the central line when explain that a little bit for lay people see VP line. Yeah. Well, it's it's a land. It's put in usually rounded into the jugular vein, and you had Vance a catheter into the Vena Cava the big. Vessel that takes blood back to the heart. Now what you can do with the line. Like, this is you can monitor pressure blood pressure, basically, and you could administer meds too. So to be told that the pressure in the CV line looked low might mean that the patient needed fluid or something like that that she was dehydrated. Okay. Let's she called doctor check the line. And then she left the room to check her other patients in a few minutes later Swango entered the room, and she remembered feeling relieved that an MD had responded but time passed and she didn't see Swango come out of the room, which made her think there was a problem with the central line and went back into the patient's room to see if Swango needed some help now, oddly he'd drawn all the curtains around the bed. So neither roommate nor anyone passing the room could see what was happening. This was very odd the nurse peaked in through the curtains and swang was hovering over the patient's chest. And he seems startled by her. She asked him if he needed any help and Swango said, no. So she left the room. Again, then ten minutes later, she peaked in again in asked if he needed any help, and he said, no again, just three minutes later nurse an Ritchie returned open the curtain and looked in. And this time she saw that Swango was using two or three syringes and one was stuck directly into the central line. If Suazo had been using the syringes to clear the line, there should have been some blood in them. But there was no blood in these syringes swing. Oh said he needed, no assistance and Richie left the room again. And a few minutes later. She did see swing leave the room. She assumed that whatever had been wrong with the central line had been corrected and almost immediately. She went into check on the patient. She wanted to check the central line dressing. But she was shocked because Ruth Barrett had turned blue again, she gave a gasp, and then she stopped breathing altogether. So as the resuscitation efforts began the nurse looked up and she sought after Swango he was coolly watching her from the back of the room. Have a weird look on his face doing nothing to help. The patient. So she was trying to give mouth to mouth to the patient. This was years ago. I guess before they had the masks vailable all the time and Swango said to her that is so disgusting other nurses, and doctors rushed in and began chest compressions, but Ruth barrack was dead. The last entry in her progress notes was made by swing go and read patient suffered apparent respiratory arrest. Witnessed by RN. No poss- present code blue called patient did not respond to resuscitative measures pronounced dead at ten forty nine. Dr Joseph Goodman, and family notified Swango, the death certificate cited the cause of death as cardiopulmonary arrest due to cerebrovascular accident, which means that they signed her of his having had a stroke, so an Richie the nurse was appalled. When Swango insisted he wanted personally to convey, the news of the patient's death to her family members. She is almost certain that something Swingle had done. Had killed her still. She never imagined that he might have killed her purpose. She assumed that may be hit accidently allowed an air pocket to enter the central Venus line causing a fatal embolism in the bloodstream. This did sometimes happen, which was one of the reasons only doctors were allowed to adjust centralize, but swang didn't acknowledge any error. And what was he doing with those syringes these question, very good question? Now, these were still in a nurse's mind that afternoon when she responded to an urgent call another room. There was another nurse. Amy more who is with a patient having breathing. Trouble and Swango is also in the room with the patient gasping for breath, Swango ordered the nurse to get a heart monitor. Amy more was stunt using a heart minor would waste valuable time. Those rare for nurse to correct doctor. But the patient's condition suggested that she might have had a pulmonary embolism or blood clot in her lungs. Swang was adamant. Amy more said she could handle the situation. She got the patient to the other floor, which probably saved her life after her shift ended that day nurse, an Richie. Just couldn't get these disturbing events out of her mind, Ruth Barrick. Steph swang goes reaction to it. And how he seemed to be purposely jeopardizing another patient, and she started to consider that this was deliberate. So since she could she got off the highway and drove to her sister's house where she broke down in tears and told her sister about the patient, and then about what had happened with the doctor the next day following hospital protocol that any regular incidents should be reported to her immediate supervisor and Richie told Amy more about her suspicions that swing. Go had caused Ruth Derek Steph on purpose. She also talked with several other nurses about what had happened. She was afraid to mention that he was deliberately trying to kill patients. But that's what she was thinking. She certainly was that same evening, which was February seventh swing. Ango in several other doctors made their evening rounds, and they stopped in to see Riina Cooper, a sixty nine year old widow who had had an operation that morning for a lower back problem, and I won't ups age fifty nine who is scheduled for treatment for brain tumor. So for twelve days these two patients had shared a room, and they become friends Hooper, a former seamstress, and that's a former practical nurse Cooper had described herself as a born again, Christian and Utz was religious as well. So they had a Latin common on the evening of February seventh they had dinner. They watch TV, and they were talking about the bible when the doctor showed up the doctors noted that there was nothing unusual with either of the women and continued their rounds when they left Cooper was lying comfortably underside with IV antibiotics. Infusing in her left arm about an hour later between nine and nine fifteen pm an Ohio State nursing student. Caroline berry came for a routine hourly check. And she was surprised to see Dr Swango. There Cooper had requested more pain medication asking, sir. Roommate to hold the call button down for her because she couldn't reach it and swing. Go had apparently responded to this call. He was standing at Cooper's bedside about three feet away from the student nurse and the student noticed that he was adding something to Cooper's IV tube something in a syringe. So she assumed swinger was clearing a blockage. Berry stepped outside to enter data on UT's chart. But then about two minutes later. She heard us yelling, are you? All right. Mrs Cooper, then berry heard the bedrooms rattling and misses us was screaming. So she rushed to the room and Cooper was turning blue in it, stopped breathing. So the student nurse rushed to the nurses station for help and she returned to the room with a nurse named John sig and when head and called a code to doctors Reese Freeman the chief resident in neuro surgery in our. Arlo break. Oh, another resident were the first to arrive along with several nurses Swango. Even though he just been in the room didn't respond to the code right away as the senior resident freemen took charge of the code any s berry the student nurse. What had happened? She did tell him that Dr Swango had been there, and he had left and Freeman was really surprised because doctors rounds had been done earlier and Cooper wasn't scheduled for any follow up visits from the physicians. Then berry told him that she had seen Swango giving Cooper something through the IV tube. But the doctor seemed skeptical so berry was convinced that they didn't believe her mean after all she was just a student nurse, nurses, not doctors though, adjusted regular IV's while doctors may inject certain special drugs into Ivy lines Hooper didn't have anything scheduled that would have needed to be given by a physician, so as nurses went to come down Utz. She called out that a doctor with blonde hair had done something to MRs Cooper b. Between crying sobbing. She said that the blonde haired doctor had come into the room with a syringe with something yellow that you rep around your arm when you draw blood like turn a kit. She had heard him tell Cooper that. He was going to give her something to make her feel better in upset said she had watched the doctor ref the yellow tube around Cooper's arm injector with something from the syringe and run from the room. That's when Cooper's bed rails began to shake and Utz tried to press her emergency call button, but couldn't reach it. So that's when she screamed for help. But by the time, it's finished her story. They moved her to a private room down the hall. So it was only nurses that heard the whole story. Mrs Cooper, wasn't breathing. She was unconscious, but she wasn't dead. She had a nice regular heartbeat. The doctors checked her pupils, and they noticed that. There was some reaction to light. But they were surprised by what they called her total acidity. She had no reflects the intimated her because she wasn't breathing and. And usually this is a procedure that's done under some degree of sedation. Putting plastic tube done someone's throat Cooper had no reaction at all. And she's paralyzed. Yeah. No, physical reaction to anything. So Jo Risley. A nurse's aide had responded to the code and his standing outside Cooper's room in heard Beeri was a friend of his tell Freeman that Swango had injected something in Cooper's IV. He moved down the corridor and round a corner. Check into make sure there were no other patient emergencies while the medical staff was working on Cooper as he knew another room. Risley saw Swango wearing his white medical coat. Come out the door. Risley new Swango just been Cooper's room. And he knew of no reason he would be in that other room. But what really struck him? He said later was creepy look on Swango face. I think he described his like shit eating grin. Now. The two said nothing each other is a past but Risley immediately went into the room that swang had exited and on the bathroom Sankt. There was an eighteen gauge needle and attend. See syringe with a plunger depressed now, an eighteen gauge needles a big one pretty large. Yeah. Lilly. Jordan, the charge nurse who supervised other nurses on the floor was walking by and Risley asked her if anyone had been assigned to give an injection in that room. She said, no Risley asked her to look in the bathroom and pointed out, the huge needle and syringe. So the two of them foot the location of this abandoned syringes, very odd. Since a sharps container which was a box for disposing of youth. Needles and syringes was just behind the sink on the wall. Recently told Jordan that he had just seen swaying coming out of the room with a strange look on his face and the significance of their discovery immediately sank in Jordan took a paper towel wrapped it around the syringe needle and put them in a cabinet under the sink. Meanwhile, gophers responding to resuscitation efforts and within fifteen minutes, she was breathing on her own and the paralysis throughout the rest of her body had resolved the tube down her throat, preventative from speaking. But she gestured that she wanted to write something Cooper wrote. He put something in my IV Kupa take into the care unit. And there she asked for the pencil and paper again this time she wrote someone gave me some med in my IV and paralyzed all of me, lungs, heart speech. She was with that. She knew what happened to her. You don't have to be a medical person to know that some guy put something in your IV. And then you can't breathe pretty easy for anyone to figure out and as soon as. The tubers removed and she could speak. Dr Freeman Astra what had happened, and she told him that a blonde haired man had dected something into her Ivy. She had seen a syringe in his hand. But she said she'd never gotten a clear look at his face. So that's unfortunate, but the student nurse berry was really believing that none of the doctors believed what she was telling them. Dr Freeman asked her though to confirm that Swango had been in the room, and he ordered a blood test on Cooper to find out possibly what had caused this paralysis. Then he confronted Swango with this allegation that he had given kuprin injection swing denied that he had even been in Cooper's room after the doctors finish their rounds later after hearing more reports from nurses, though, Freeman again as Swango if he was sure he had not been in the room and Swango repeated that he had had no contact with Cooper with Gupta in the ICU in the crisis pretty much over the nurses just sat down and couldn't believe what had happened. They felt that something. Had to be done about this nurse. Black who was the supervisor told nurses berry in Jordan to write down everything they could remember, and she did the same thing the students berry wrote that Swingle was in the room, and it appeared that he injected something into Cooper's IV tube. Then their statements were collected and placed in a sealed envelope, which they left for the director of nursing to see the next day. She also told Jordan to retrieve that syringe and place it in her briefcase, which was interoffice. Now more was already concerned about the increase in the number of codes and deaths on the ninth floor in the last few weeks. So now she was beginning to link them specifically to Dr Swango. January fourteenth Cynthia Ann McGee a young gymnasts from the university of Illinois have been found dead in her hospital room at explained six days later, twenty one year old Richard delong was found dead. A nurse said Dr Freeman who responded to the code under long was stunned by the sudden death another patient on the ninth floor. Forty three year old Ryan welter died unexpectedly on January twenty fourth after a nurse found him gasping for air and turning blue Swango had been working on the floor at the time of all these deaths. So the nurses reported their concerns to administrators, but they were met with accusations of paranoia swing was cleared by a very Chris ary investigation in nineteen eighty four still his work had been so poor that he wasn't hired as a resident physician after his internship ended that June that July he moved back to his hometown of Quincy. He told his mom and relatives that he hadn't liked the doctors he worked with at Ohio State, and he planned to apply for a medical license in Illinois. And in the meantime, he worked as a paramedic for a few months before he resumed his medical career. So he was hired by the Adams county. The ambulance corpse, despite the fact that he'd been fired from that other ambulance service. I guess they're not communicating with each other about employees, obviously, not so is ours were unpredictable and he often worked weekends. But he frequently made the eight hour drive to Columbus to see his girlfriend Rita Duma center. Children. He would make this long drive to Columbus. Visit with Rita for just an hour. And then Dr Beck for work. So he could go as long as two days with no sleep right now. Many of his paramedics soon began to notice that whenever swing prepared coffee. You're brought food in so them would get sick violently. Sick stomach. You know, vomiting arming pain. Yeah. Then in October that year swang was arrested by the Quincy police department who found arsenic and other poisons in his possession in August. Nineteen eighty five Swango was convicted of aggravated battery for poisonings co workers and. And he was sentenced to five years in prison. Now, his conviction said of criticism for the investigation, which was admittedly poor at Ohio State review by law school dean James Meeks concluded that the hospital should have called the police. It also revealed shortcomings in its initial investigation of Swango Franklin county, Ohio prosecutors considered bringing charges of murder and attempted murder against Swango, but they eventually decided against it because they didn't have physical evidence. The blood test of patient Cooper was either lost to never dead. Well, I think what we need to the Salat was a lot of hospital politics, and it revealed a lot like we said about the medical profession and how they protect doctors. And hopefully, that's changed to some extent. Now, I think it has it has an you still have to do the reporting. But there is the national practitioners data Bank that should have information about a person. Well, yeah, this is the eighties. So hopefully information is much more easily shared now route. So in nineteen eighty nine Swango gets released from prison, and he finds work as a counselor at the state career development center in Newport, News Virginia, he was forced out after being quote working on a scrapbook of disasters on work time. Then he got a job as a lab tech. He performed adequately there. But during his time there several employs sought medical attention with complaints of persistent stomach pains. Around this time Swango mic Kristin Kinney who is a nurse riverside hospital. The two fell in love and plan to get married then in nineteen Ninety-one Swango decided to look for new position as doctor which he couldn't legally do. I mean after that conviction. He wasn't allowed to be a doctor anymore who had a felony conviction on his record. Right. So there shouldn't be any way. He could get a job as a doctor. Well, he legally changed his name to Daniel j Adams any tried to apply for a residency program at Ohio valley medical center, and that was in wheeling West Virginia. So July nineteen ninety two he began working at Sanford USD medical center in Sioux Falls, in both of these cases, he forged the legal documents that he used to reestablish himself as a physician he forged a fact sheet from the Illinois department of corrections that falsified his criminal record stating that he had been convicted of a misdemeanor for getting into a fistfight with. Co worker and had only had six months in prison rather than reality which was five years for felony poisoning. Now, of course, this is an important omission because like you said states aren't going to grant a medical license to a convicted felon, a felony conviction is viewed as evidence in and of itself of unprofessional conduct. But he's faking things. Swing also forged a restoration of civil rights letter from the governor of Virginia falsely stating that he had committed no further crimes after his misdemeanor and was leading an exemplary lifestyle Swango was able to establish fairly good reputation at Sanford medical center, but in October he made the mistake of attempting to join the American Medical Association. So the AMA did a more thorough background check than the medical center and found out about his poisoning conviction that thanksgiving the Discovery Channel. Aired an episode of Justice files that included in a segment on Swango remarkable to me with the AMA report in multiple calls from frightened colleagues, Sanford fired Swango, his girlfriend Kristin Kinney went back to Virginia afterwards, she had started suffering severe migraines after she left Swango, the headaches stopped. So I mean, I think we can draw conclusions from that that he'd. Been poisoning her as well while they were living together planning to marry right? Yeah. You just got a kick out of it really his his case sokaia. Yeah. But the AMA temporarily lost track of Swango and he managed to enter the psychiatric residency program at the state university of New York. His first rotation was in the internal medicine department at the VA medical center in northport. But again, his patients began dying. Four months later. Kristen Kenny committed suicide. Now her mother. Sharon Cooper was horrified to find out a person with swang goes history. Could even be allowed to practice medicine. She got in touch with a friend of Kristen who is nurse at Sanford, the nurse alerted Sanford's dean, Robert tally about swang goes whereabouts. So tally contacted the dean and under intense questioning from the head of the psychiatry department Swango admitted that he had lied about his poisoning conviction, Illinois, and he was immediately fired while the public outcry that followed resulted in doctors Cohen and Miller of the state university of New York being forced to resign before he resigned Coen sent a warning about Swango to all one hundred twenty five medical schools and all one thousand teaching hospitals across the US. So he prevented Swango from getting another medical residency in the United States because I feel like he absolutely would have tried again. Of course. But the thing is her affi-. Is it? None of these hospitals did due diligence right Swango as you said was an excellent conversationalist and people wanted to believe him. Yes. I agree. And it would not have been very difficult to check references. I'll know find out what he'd been doing. Absolutely. But they didn't they didn't. But I also believe that this was a time when people don't more with paper, you handed them documents. Now, I think everything's online hopefully in this would be much tougher to do today. Not that that excuses any of the terrible things that happened because it could have been prevented right now. His latest incident was at a veterans affairs facility. So federal authorities got involved in swing go disappeared. And then in mid nineteen ninety four the F B I found out he was living in Atlanta and was working as a chemist at a computer equipment company's wastewater facility. A soon after the FBI alert the company Swango was fired for lying on his job application, the FBI obtained a warrant charging Swango with using fraudulent credentials to gain entry to a VA hospital. But by the time the warrant was issued swang would left the country in November nineteen ninety four. He went to Zimbabwe and got a hospital job based on forged documents. And once again is patients began to die mysteriously. Took a year though, for the poisons to be connected to then he was arrested in Zimbabwe. He was charged with poisonings he hired prominent lawyer David Coltart, but he escaped from symbolic way before his trial date and hit out in Zambia. This is a crazy story, isn't it? Yeah. Out of this world, this is one of those truth stranger than fiction things. Absolutely. So at that time, he rented a room from widowed woman who ended up getting violently ill after she ate a meal in the house where he was now she consulted a local surgeon who suspected that she had arsenic poisoning. And he persuaded her to send hair samples for forensic analysis. These clippings confirmed toxic levels of arsenic, in her hair. The lab reports were passed onto this Imbaba Republic. Police criminal investigation department through INTERPOL to the FBI who then visited Zimbabwe to interview this pathologist. In the meantime, Swango head really figured out that the authorities were closing in. So he crossed the border to Zambia and then to Nimby where he found temporary medical work. He was charged in absent show with poisonings year and a half later in March nineteen ninety seven he applied for another job at the Royal. Hospital in Dhahran Saudi Arabia, using another falsified CV, of course. Well, all this was happening criminal investigator. Tom Valeri consulted with Charlene Thomasson MD, a forensic psychiatrist to have her help him with the Swango case because of her clinical expertise, she was able to review documents and evidence in she gave a psychological profile of Dr Swango, Tom Valeri cul de agent. Richard Thomson nor relation who was stationed in the Manhattan DA office to discuss the case his conversation focused on Swango lying on his government application to work at the department of veterans affairs where he prescribed narcotic medications. This and other evidence were enough for immigration and Naturalization Service agents to arrest Ouango in June of nineteen ninety seven and the way they got him is he was stopping over at Chicago O'Hare international airport on his way to Saudi Arabia. So Swango pleaded guilty to defrauding the government in March nineteen ninety eight in July of that year. He was sentenced to three and a half years in prison. The sentencing judge ordered that Swango not be allowed to prepare or deliver food or have any involvement in preparing or distributing drugs. Smart move. Finally, something smart. The government put together a mess of file swang goes crimes as part of the investigation. Prosecutors exumed the bodies of three of his patients and found poisonous chemicals in them. They also found evidence paralyze Barron, harass another patient with an injection Harris. Head later lapsed into a coma and died. Prosecutors also found evidence that Swingle lied about the death of Cynthia Ann McGee the young gymnasts. He had been treating while. He was an intern at Ohio State swing co-head claim that she suffered heart failure. But he had actually killed her by giving her a potassium injection that stopped hurt that's easy to get access to the physician or sure. Very easy. And it's one of those things that are pretty much untraceable. Yes. Unless you quickly do blood work and see that they have a massively elevated potassium level in their blood. But that usually doesn't happen, right? So until I eleventh two thousand just a week before he was due to be released from prison on the fraud charge. Federal prosecutors on Long Island filed a criminal complaint. Charging Swango with three counts of murder one count of assault and one count each of false statements mail fraud and conspiracy to commit wire fraud at the same time. Symboblic authorities charged him with poisoning seven patients five of whom had died. Swing was indicted in July two thousand and he pleaded not guilty. But on September six he pleaded guilty to murder in fraud charges if he hadn't done that he had faced the possibility of the death penalty as well as. Tradition to symboblic at his sentencing hearing, prosecutors read some terrifying passages from a notebook of his where he had described the pleasure. He got from poisoning and killing people he was sentenced to three consecutive life. Terms swing a repeated the same methods to commit these murders with non patients such as co workers at the paramedic service. He used poisons like arsenic, slipping them into food and drinks with patients he sometimes used the same poisons. But usually he gave them an overdose of whatever drug the patient had been prescribed or he even wrote out false prescriptions for drugs. So the book we mentioned earlier is blind eye written by James b Stewart. Excellent book, very good. And in the book, they estimate that counting the suspicious deaths in med school swinger was linked to thirty five suspicious deaths. And of course, that can't be all of it. The F B I believes he might be responsible for about sixty deaths. But we do recommend this book. It's just fascinating goes into excellent detail. We really couldn't have done the podcast without information. We got from that book will it's one of these books that you read, and you just get angry reading it whine as the physician. It's it makes you angry. His he's giving you guys a bad name. Doesn't make you look. Good dickey. No, no. Especially the way that he was protected. I don't like that. At all. He was note of only say they you're talking about how it was years ago and things were different than it certainly was. Yeah. And these days, you would listen to nurses and nine physician employs when they have suspicions. You wouldn't summarily dismissed up fully not. But you know, I think that not all doctors are like you some of them have big egos and don't respect nurses like you do. Well, let's because I'm a pediatrician not that's my excuse. I think there's a certain personality type that goes into different specialties. I'll share to a certain extent, but I would hope that officers would respect nurses, enough to listen to them are absolutely especially when you have repeated complaints and suspicious activity by someone like this. I mean, there were many suspicious things about him. It wasn't just a. One thing there were so many things. That's right. But anyway, thanks for this discussion, really an interesting case in a great book to read for moving today show has been sponsored by ADT real protection when it comes to something as important as your family's safety. You deserve real protection. From ADT. Real protection means the nation's number one smart home security provider is there for you. When you need them. Real protection means eighteen thousand employs safeguard in you, no matter how you define safety. ADT? Is there ADT real protection? Visit ADT dot com forward slash podcast to learn more about how ADT can design and install a secure smart home. Just for you. The music for true crime Burri was written and produced by Tristian Capelle in. This is the point our show when I tell listeners about our members only episodes, which we produce exclusively for our team Tigres member. Hours and our patriot supporters this past February are members only episode was about female serial killer, Sheila labar who actually seduced abused and killed young men on her New Hampshire farm and this month actually within a few days. I believe we're going to be recording. Our members only episode on Robert rela then and this is a fascinating case. Dick is taken the lead on this one. And it's an amazing case. I really can't wait to talk about it. The sky was a serial rapist and murderer. A handsome charming kind of guy reminds me a little bit of Ted Bundy, he had a friendly smile and people trusted him. So for like twenty years he committed crimes and got away with a lot of them. So we have a big Beck load of these episodes, including episodes on OJ Simpson. Tina Watson rubber Fisher clear, a Harris and Diane downs if you'd like to give some support the podcast and get some extra episodes to listen to you can go to our. Website. It's tigr aber dot com, and you can join you can also go to patriot dot com forward slash tigr ever and become a patron our members and patrons. Also, get a snifter or a bottle opener sa-, magnets, and stickers. As a thank you from us. One other thing, we always appreciate it. If you could give a review on I tunes over ever you. Listen to the show to help us fine some new listeners, so let's get to feedback. If you have feedback and you want it read on T CB, you can send us an Email to true crime brewery at tigr dot com or tell us what's on your mind in your own voice by leaving a voicemail on our leva voicemail tab, which is on the right side of the screen when you go to our website homepage. Either way you do it. We would love to hear from you. So the first thing we have in feedback is a voicemail from Shelby with the case suggestion. Hi, jill. Hi, dick. This is Shelby from Tacoma, Washington. I love your podcast. And I have a few case suggestions, the first one is the skeleton brothers Tanner Alexander Andrew witnessing in Michigan of ember. Twenty six two thousand ten the dad said he gave the boys to underground sanctuary due to the moms pedophilia. The second case is van Braida murders in Stellenbosch, South Africa, January twenty seven to two thousand fifteen it was a home invasion with an axe killing three leaving to live with a very frustrating. Lang one one call and huge twist at the end and the most recent is the murder of four months old sterling in Iowa August thirtieth two thousand seventeen twenty one year old mom left. Her son in swing with a blanket in a hot room, and Wayne sterling was found, unfortunately, he had passed away in there were maggots in his diaper. I know how much dick loves work. With children. So I thought that would be a great case as well. I love the podcast, and I cannot wait to hear more from you guys think you think shall be those are some good suggestions that last one's pretty disturbing. But will they're all disturbing, right? Where you're good guy. Only put the first one out to talk about for today on a reserve the other two from Shelby, okay? For the first one that you're talking about is the skeleton brothers have never heard of this is in your territory, these boys three boys think five eight and ten or Sunday. Three little kids went missing from Morandi Michigan, which is near Detroit on black Friday two thousand ten the parents were divorced or separated tiny skeleton said her husband John was supposed to return the voice to her. But he never did. John skelton. Meanwhile, always maintained that had given the boys away because his wife or ex wife Tanya was abusing her sons and she was later charged with misconduct for. Sex with a fourteen year old boy in nineteen ninety. And she, of course denied that. She abused the boys. But no one's ever found him says what about the sky saying he gave him away. There's no consequences for that. This is one of these crazy cases where they just said. Okay. And what the fuck I think he went to jail for time. But it never found him. I don't know again. I feel like if an adult loses children quotation marks lay should be held responsible for killing the children because you don't give children away like that. And they never show up again. I'm sorry. But so not available reason business Sumer can interest in case. It does. Yeah. Yep. I think that that is an interesting one. So and yeah, you know, three of the suggestions shall be gave sounded fascinating. Yeah. Good job. So she concise. She gave three of them. I liked it. Okay. Well, done Shelby. Thank you. Okay. The next voicemail is from Tracy. It's also a case suggestion high. Jalen dick, this is Tracy from Iowa. I love your podcast. I listened to many true crime podcast, and yours is one of my favorites. I have a case suggestion. It's about Jessica Lunceford. She was a nine year old and Florida that was kidnapped raped and buried alive by disgusting. Sex offender, the really terrible case on I'm surprised. I haven't heard I haven't been able to find any other podcasts that have covered it. And then her wonderful father after that worked to get Jessica's law passed, and he and his family were initially harassed by people accused of killing Jessica, I would love to hear you covered this case. Thank you. Thank you, Tracy. So I see the copious notes and this one I know you were talking to me about this law. So you wanna say few comments about this when dick sure abridge the notes little bit. Okay. Okay. But she was murdered in February two thousand five. She's little nine year old kid in HAMAs of Florida. And she was taken right from her home from her home sex offender live nearby name is John Kui, and he apparently held her captive over the weekend raping her and then murdered her by burying her alive. I think at heard of this. So they dragged him down because he fled the state and was living somewhere else. But they found him in charged him and sentenced to death. But then he died of natural causes before it sends could be carried out following her death refiner Mark lens pursued legislation to provide more stringent tracking of released sex offenders. So the Jessica Leonard redact was named after her and it requires tighter restrictions on sex offenders such as wearing electric tracking devices and increase prison sentences for some convicted sex offenders Jessica's law refers to similar reform ex that might be initiated by other states. So he's been tireless in getting this taken care of. Well, that sounds like a good topic. Yeah. And he's Tracy said he got some blowback on this from hell from the sex offenders who gives a shit about that, you know, they said I've served my sentence. A should be able to do what I want to do, blah, blah, blah. I'm simplifying this. But it is a whole other issue how we deal with sex offender. So yes, it is a tissue. So if we do this case that might be something to discuss, right? Absolutely. I think that could be an interesting conversation to have. Okay, I'm on board for that, those are voice mails. We have a couple emails. I once Christine Christine has a case suggestion. She says that she loves our show and where her favorites. So thanks Christine. She says as you spent a good amount of time in Maine. I wonder if you've ever looked into the Sabado Sabino riot case back in the late nineteen nineties. He went on trial for gunning down three on armed men. He claimed had followed him and his girlfriend to his home to harm them though. One of the three was killed while clearly trying. To flee riot was found not guilty at trial. Also, if you do look into that case, dick should checkout. Four river brewing, although Prebble, especially their sour cherry varieties. My faith estuary may appeal to dick thank you Christine. So what do you know about this? Stick. Vaguely remember this 'cause I was living in Maine at the time just to embellish a little bit. And I don't want to give too much away. Because this is an interesting case. But these guys riot owned a bar or club or something in Portland, and these people came in, and there was a loud argument between riot in the three guys. And then when he left with his girlfriend, they followed him and his defense was that he was fearful of his life because it had this pipe boisterous argument beforehand. A cell phone say could come nine one one don't know. Because main doesn't have a stand your ground law. Does it not specifically? But he said he acted in self defense because he feared for his life. Although one of the suspects was trying flee. Correct. So that would go against what he's saying. Yeah. But he was found not guilty. Wow. Mostly I think that's one that would really frustrate me in upset me. But it would also have some interesting things. To discuss so considerate. Plus if we're talking about a sour cherry beer, I find that hard to turn down where you've heard there. Oh have. I did. I like it. Good for room, a pretty good brewery and gotten a bunch of beers from them did buy yours. Maybe just a single can of because he is to be able to buy singles the beverage place in Kittery. I like most were river beers. And he had asked ury not had estuary have had a couple of their IPA's, quite good. Okay. So that'd be something to think about good. Okay. One final case suggestion from Cindy, I edited her letter to a Cindy wrote. I have read an rules book about the Deborah green case, I have read all of her books, so far and she's a great writer. I can imagine the shock. She must have felt when she found out that her ex co worker Ted Bundy was a serial killer. Now, I think she was mentioning the Deborah green case because that's something. She just listened to in. She wrote to us, correct? Okay. Her suggest. Question is this. As a high priority. I'm still very much interested in new covering a case, I've mentioned before the murder of Naomi, Jim Alif. This case is about the clash between teenagers in parents, especially parents who are old enough to be the child's grandparents. I was a late one is my mother was forty three when I was born in my dad was fifty five. So yes, I think this is interesting. We've both looked at this case in it's definitely one that we want to cover. So they're also known as the barbecue murders here. All right. They're known as the barbecue murders because it was a double murder in Marin County, California and business consultant Jim Alvin his wife Naomi were murdered in their home by their sixteen year old adopted daughter Marlene olive inner twenty year old boyfriend Charles Riley, who then attempted to dispose of their bodies by burning them in a barbecue pit at a nearby. Campground? Rally was convicted of two counts of first degree murder and received a death sentence, which was later changed to life in prison with the possibility of parole Marlene Alif who was sick. Steen was tried as a juvenile and received a sentence of three to six years in the California youth authority juvenile facility. So she was released at age twenty one after serving just a little over four years. This case gained worldwide attention due to the age of the perpetrators. Of course, the details of the crime, which are grizzly and the wide disparity in sentencing between Charles Riley and Marlene all of this has also been the topic of continuing coverage in connection with his repeated bids for parole and she's head subsequent convictions for numerous other crimes, which I find interesting. I would like to follow up on how she did after getting out shoes kind of a career criminal. But nothing violent not that we know of. But that reminds MU that case we didn't Canada couple years ago. Yeah. Runaway devil. She was with thirteen. Yes. As far as we know our she's she's been out for several years, and his lead a clean life. As far as we know. And I think there's a big difference though between thirteen and sixteen years maturity think about that. Yeah. But it's definitely an interesting topic. So certainly has one we might wanna pursue. Thank you. Cindy. Thank you very much. So thank you to everyone for your emails and for your voicemails. And if you've sent a something, and we haven't read it on the area. We may be caustic has backlog, right or do. Okay. So don't give up hope. Okay. At that. You would anyway. No. All right. Well, we will see an ex time at quiet end. And thank you for listening. Join us abide by.

Dr Michael Swango Swango attending physician Swango Steph swang Michael Swaine state University Medical Cente Swango face Riina Cooper Illinois Ohio State University Quincy college Ohio intern Quincy John Swango hick Dover Dr Ronald Ferguson Swingle Ritchie
ADHD is Get-out-of-able: An Interview with Dr. Ned Hallowell, the Godfather of ADHD

JDHD | A Podcast for Lawyers with ADHD

32:48 min | 11 months ago

ADHD is Get-out-of-able: An Interview with Dr. Ned Hallowell, the Godfather of ADHD

"Coming to you from the deep and weird and ADHD fueled recesses of Marshall Liberties Neo cortex. This is J. D. HD not a podcast for lawyers ADHD where we talk about. Finally getting stuff done we help you to your law. Practice Your Business Your Life Life and your brain. We hyper focus on ideas. Tips and tricks for every lawyer with ADHD whether they know they have it or not and now your host a the guy who once held someone's fake eyeball in his poem Marceau Lick de lo. Everyone is Marshall. I'm a lawyer and I have. ADHD thanks so much for being here today and happy New Year and happy holidays. It's twenty twenty misses J. D. HD has a podcast lawyers ADHD. There are tons of us out there and so if you're new here welcome listen I want to give you a quick update on Jd hd first of all it's hard and it's imperfect but it is live. I have episodes. Yep I have a bunch more in the. Can you know what I'm a perfectionist and I'm trying to make them perfect I just gotTa go so I'm GonNa launch some great episodes this year in the the coming weeks and I'm super excited. I've been having incredible conversations. I've been talking with Sam Glover voyeuristic. I have been talking to men Talal on his podcast distraction. I have been having conversations with real live lawyers all across the country in fact all across the world who have adhd he and who are interested in building a community with us. So thank you for being here. Thank you for being a new subscriber and for showing vulnerability and jury listen to talk about about this episode because it is insane. I can't believe this. I don't know how to say this without sounding like a humble brag but my goal was to have this interview sometime in time in my first one hundred episodes. I am so thankful that I got to chat with this. Next guest is literally the Godfather Baby. Hd himself graduated from Harvard. Undergrad a psychiatrist with incredible credentials and has dyslexia and it and Some of his own imposter syndrome and all of the things that we talk about here but in one thousand nine hundred four driven to distraction and it is literally release the Bible for people with ADHD particularly adults. He has written twenty one books. Now including driven to distraction and delivered to distraction. He has a podcast. I called a distraction. I am so thankful I had a chance to talk with MED. Allah will listen to the episode. Here comes uh-huh Dr Ned hallowed thank you very much for being here on the ADHD podcast. We really really really appreciate it. Well it's my pleasure to be with you. Well so I've heard you called In various circles the godfather of ADHD. And I don't know how you take that that phrase. I'm honored by it. I any comparison to Marlon Brando. I'll be happy to doing it forever. Endeavor right as I recall very early on in your training For Psychiatry you Attended a lecture and learn of ADHD and the wheels started started turning. Well of course the real answer that question. I have been doing it for as long as I've been alive. which as of today is seventy years so so oh you might say? My training began seventy years ago. But my my formal training. The kind that really is not nearly as important as real life training was was indeed in one thousand nine hundred eighty one when I was a fellow in child. Psychiatry at Mass Mental Health Center which is a Teaching Hospital of Harvard Medical School a professor. Lc Freeman was her name. Oh be forever. Indebted tour. Gave a talk about this condition that I honestly had never heard. Have I heard of it during my adult residency in reference to some patient and some resident Caymans at you know this guy might have minimal brain in dysfunction in adult said. He gave me a paper from mass. General about 'EM VDI in adults and and so that was some substance of my my exposure to to this condition which in fact it used to be called minimal. Brain dysfunction isn't that something yeah but when when Dr Freeman gave her talk The condition had been renamed attention deficit disorder. Hyperactivity hadn't been stuck into the name yet so I learned it as add not attention deficit disorder and as she began to read the symptoms I had this great moment. May Be the single angle. Greatest moment of my life in terms of of Epiphany Namely that I had it but at is at the same time I also realized of which I am continuing to emphasize that the medical model the model in which dog was trained Slanted entirely in the direction of pathology. So so you told you had this condition but you were told folded in a in a in a mouthful of polly celebic pathologies attention deficit disorder attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and. I knew that wasn't true. Because I mean I'd gone to Phillips Exeter Academy which is a very rigorous high school up in New Hampshire boarding school. And then I've gone to harbored Robert Which is a pretty good college in Cambridge Massachusetts than I'd gone to Tulane medical school a wonderful medical school down in New Orleans and then back to Harvard for residency internship and residency in psychiatry? And and so I knew I was not the deficient disorder disabled. Yes I face challenges which everyone that's I also also knew known this for a long time that I was incredibly slow reader and I have dyslexia which is another condition. That's misunderstood because the upside of dyslexia is talent with words and in fact fact. I'd majored in English at Harvard. While doing pre med and graduated with honors. And I've just finished my writing twenty first book so and I've small potatoes compared to someone like Winston Churchill. WHO also had dyslexia or John Irving one of our great novelists who has dyslexia so so you know people with these two who conditions? Add ADHD and dyslexia. Both which I have I knew for a fact Could do very well in life. And so oh. It became my mission back then at Nineteen eighty-one and continues to be to this day in two thousand nine hundred almost two thousand twenty to teach the world what needs to know that these condition conditions managed properly are tremendous assets and and in my career. I've been practiced since I graduated from fellowship in Nineteen ninety-three in my now long career I I have not been treating disabilities. I've been helping people on ramp their gifts and that shift in emphasis is tremendously important. Because if have you believe you're unwrapping a gift unearthing talent promoting a strength. Your attitude is a hundred percent different than if you think you're getting some disability fix and that shift in enthusiasm emphasis makes all the difference in the world and it also happens to be true. It's it's not like I'm I'm I'm I'm blowing smoke. It's not like I'm pretending that there are talents embedded in this condition. It's easy to prove. I can just line up means of people who have who've done unbelievably will but it's also important to know that if you don't manage it properly fully it can be a disaster life with Adhd as it's now called can be living hell if you don't know how to manage it properly and so my life professional life has been devoted to helping people learn how to identify to name it second of all the not the afraid of it to embrace it and then third level to extract the positive from it and minimise the negatives well and that is what has resonated resonated with me from the moment I heard of you and listened to the podcast for the first time and read the book Is this idea of unleashing. Some MM potential rather than Simply managing some symptoms that might otherwise be a bit pathological So let's I want to look at this from the angle. First of all of your next book walk which I understand is coming out next year sometime and you call it vast as if The name that we have labeled this thing with with hasn't been wrong enough for long enough or not proposing that we finally get it right and so you've talked about the misnomers around. ADHD and you don't think ADHD is right right. You haven't thought that. Add was right. You didn't of course think that minimal brain dysfunction was right right. You've you've maybe entrepreneurs trait you've talked about about some other things too. But but the idea vast variable attention stimulus trait to me is so mesmerizing. And I want you to talk a little bit about the book that you wrote with John. Not that's coming out next year and why you think that. ADHD is a completely inaccurate and misleading term and why vast is a better one. You're listening to the eighty eight. Th podcast for lawyers with ADHD with Marsala sixty just look at the term attention deficit. It's not outta deficit at all. It's an abundance of the tension. The challenges in controlling it if it were a deficit would be a form of dementia Reform of asleep disorder or or some form of impaired consciousness which it absolutely is not so right off. The Bat were were deficit is not only insulting but but it's wrong. I don't mind you know we have to call a spade as bait and and and if the thing is impacted acted episode all at a deficit. But it isn't. It's an abundance of attention. Will you have this trait. Have a ton of attention the challenges laundry vases how to control it. You know because a board of Missouri Kryptonite the minute. We're bored our attention darts off somewhere else. And if we're in the middle of taking an exam or listening to a lecture we miss every so so deficit is wrong than the next. Hyperactivity is often not present at all and even when it is it doesn't It overlooks the positive. Side of it turning seventy today. I'm really glad to have that. It's called energy. And that's the that's the the positive embedded in this negative phrase hyperactivity and then disorder. Well it's not a disorder because there are so many positives that go with yes it can be. It can be disabling but it also can be an incredibly of enabling incredibly league positive so the term the only legitimate word in the arm is attention because yes yes. Attention is impacted in the syndrome era. So I came up with actually wasn't me. It was a woman in one of my lectures at the institute a couple years ago. Who Works for San Francisco Cisco Public Television and carry her name and she came up with she said? Why don't you call it? Vast variable attention stimulus trait and I just loved it. I said you nailed it. That's been looking for this for so long. It's perfect because you you put it in. The two key elements are our constant search for for simulation and and our constant need to control attention. And then and then you put in the adjective variable which is absolutely absolutely the case it's varying and then you nail it with trait because trade Says you know this is not a good nor bad. It's like being left handed or right handed the like being having blonde hair or Brown. Hair a trait and what you do with. It turns it into something you like or don't like and so and so now I have no illusion. Leave me the. DSM is not going to rename it. The academic circles and I have I have no illusions about at that they they will scoff at it and they'll say oh there goes how well off on one of his wife chases but the fact is the population is with me on. It's it's not a wild goose chase. It it's a it's truth and you know. My term is a whole lot better than attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or the reasons. I just pointed out You know and and and renaming it. They're able attention. Stimulus trait will be a whole lot more helpful to the children children and adults who come to see me who don't WanNa leave my office being just told they have a deficit disorder for goodness sake when they don't it will be as thing if they did but they don't and so they'll be much more motivated to get the help they need if they're working on something called vast than if they're working on something called attention indust disorder to mouthful of pathology. And well I I. I love that about the way that you talk about. ADHD and vast partly. Because I know that you are an educator about these things a lot of times the way that you educate is through metaphor and one of the metaphors I heard wh- in Philadelphia at the International. ADHD conference was this idea that living with Adhd is like playing a really really difficult musical instrument and that metaphor for me was really powerful and it hits on what you just said that when you are given instrument with a desire to play it And you know that it's difficult you're motivated to master it because you know The sound that a violin makes by someone not prepared to wheeled it is has has got awful But my goodness when you have mastered at over years and years The music that it makes his is some of the most beautiful in the world. So I think that that reframing framing is critical for all of us and I love I love that you picked up on that particular metaphor or analogy because You I do make many analogies of this condition. It's like having a race car for brain with bicycle lakes. I'm a break specialist at said it's a white White Magara falls until you build a hydroelectric plant. It's just a lot of maize and I I and I'm in the hydro plant business so then you can light up. The state of New York was the musical instrument is one that I particularly love because it does. It does imply both the beauty that can come out of it but also the work it takes to make the music so this gift does not unwrap itself. You know it really doesn't in the United become a published author despite snapping my fingers I had to work really hard starting in Grade School in. I knew ooh in fifth grade that I liked words of oil boy I had to learn grammar and learn Latin and learned rhetoric and learn. You know you all the all the techniques go into becoming a writer and most of all had to write and write and write and write and write and and where I really learned learned writing at Exeter that was asked to they. They didn't teach writing so much as they told us to write. And by writing you you learn how to write than when someone marks it up with a red pen and then you go back and edit it and so a lot of work went into my becoming coming a writer well similarly if you WanNa take your. Add and make music with it. As opposed to screechy scratchy. Sounds like someone who doesn't know how to play Violin. You have to work at it and we do. We do have to work at it. You have to practice and and own your skills and you know there's some things were bad like being on time or getting organized or you know staying on track when something gets boring and you have to work at that. 'cause you gotta you gotTa learn how to play your scales and read the music in to to make a beautiful sound but A good violinist can make well well. Let's let's carry it on and carry it forward a little bit to talk about The folks that I talk to every day I talked to lawyers with. Adhd you and I talked to whereas with ADHD whether they know it or not. And I just WanNa feed you a little bit of information so that we can frame up The way that we talk about. Because there's there's data out there that that are important to this discussion you know. We know that lawyers have an extraordinarily high rate of anxiety and depression substance. It's abuse alcoholism addiction suicidal thoughts. Divorce a whole bunch of pathology we have done very little to explore this just like just like doctors by indeed and indeed and and that's why I think it's so fascinating to hear about you and your practice to hear about you and your. Adhd these are things that are real in our profession. We also have lawyers. Here's self identifying at twelve and a half percent of the the number of folks who self identifies having. ADHD that are lawyers as twelve and a half percent while not self self identifying so you could probably multiple that by three to get the real sure and that goes to the statistics that eighty percent or so of adults are not diagnosed with Adhd even though they're walking around and they have a bit complicated indeed by The fact that folks who are smart tend to be more difficult to diagnose because of their ability to cover up some executive dysfunctions options otherwise otherwise show. And so you know here. We are with this group of people with compulsive behaviors addictive behaviors and a whole bunch of things that make it hard hard to diagnose not to mention the stigma of licensing in the concerns about credentialing. Where are we when it comes to unlocking this vast the potential in lawyers with Adhd to help them contribute in the ways that they know they can but they haven't our website leaves Jai DHCP dot com makes this podcast possible sign up for a completely free two day? Email course introducing you to Adhd for lawyers at deep ADHD DOT com slash. Course well the your podcast. I think will go a long way it. It's a matter of how do you bring good news to someone who is not ready to hear it and your population is not rated era for the same. The reason doctors aren't and other professionals aren't they don't know what it is and what they do know or quote unquote now is wrong. They think it needs. You're stupid or they think feature on the liable we think it'll ruin their career. They think they have to keep it secret from the Bar Association. I think their patients won't be wants to see a lawyer. An attorney who's got. Add Add. Gee that's the worst thing right You know who wants to go to a surgeon who has. Add a source. Well a lot of surgeons have it and a lot of trial attorneys have reason being able to. Add are drawn to high intensity situations will what is more intensity than an operating room or or courtroom of both the crucibles of intensity. And so you'll find a lot of people with the door. ADHD there but these folks don't want to hear the good news because they think it's bad news a think they think it's their dirty little secret or they just denied all together and say I don't have it and the the reason that such a shame is they're they're costing themselves a quantum level of improvement in their life that they could get if they embraced the diagnosis and got the right health. I mean this is a condition. Once you get the diagnosis. Your Life can only get better the treatments we have can only lead to improvements only to improvement so you know and I could spend all day telling you stories as of professionals who just who told me to go jump in the lake at first and then and then they now send me Christmas cards. They they love me. They and it's not me. They should love released. Its message and the message is so empowering and you know as by the way not only do their legal legal careers take-off or their medical career whatever career take off their relationships get saved go from on the brink of divorce volume volume again. They go from being a terrible father or mother to being a wonderful father mother. They go from being a completely unreliable friend to being a wonderful friend. Dr I don't like to focus too much on the negatives Again without being naive. I like the face them head on I'm GonNa ask you to pardon question though so one of uh-huh what is you you talked about the costs and benefits. What what are the costs for folks who pretend like they don't have adhd or they pretend like it doesn't exist? What do some of those costs look clock and maybe you can hit that quickly? Well well right a right of the right of the top Russell Barclays most recent statistic. He's one of the great researchers in the field. And and really if you want to know any numbers call Russ artfully. He's a prince of the human being anyway. His research shows that this condition on dealt with knocks about fifteen years off your life if teen years new to all the various problems people with add encounter. Now what are those problems. Well addiction is about ten times higher and times higher. Depression is much our higher. The suicide rate is higher Absenteeism from work as hard horses higher. the prison population is full of people with undiagnosed untreated. Add violent behavior car accidents of violent crime. All kinds of problems with lying people would aid. Eli They don't call it a lie. But they don't don't tell the truth not because they're malevolent not because they're they're they have no conscience because they forget they overlooked and they resort to subterfuge. So they're they don't pay the taxes they they don't file on time. They make all these kind of mistakes that come back to haunt you and they get in the boat and then they just chalked up there well. I'm not disciplined enough all the things they've been told since first grade. I need to get my act together. I need more discipline. And then they get down on themselves as I guess I'm just a loser. Sure and they get depressed and they start drinking and drugs and they start failing you know. It's a downward spiral and it's a terribly sad story. What makes me I just WANNA scream is? It's completely avoidable. If you get the diagnosis and get treatment that horrible negative story of Storm Storm. Undrawn can turn into a an absolute Christmas Carol of joy and laughter and new birth main. Truly this diagnosis I. Before I became a psychiatrist I was thinking of becoming an obstetrician while I feel like I am on I I I deliver new life every day in my office by making the Steig notice and and Offering offering treatment. It's such good news now. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there isn't a downside. God I just told you the downside. It's horrible it can. It can be on your life and just make life a living if you don't know what's going on. Aw that's so sad because this living hell is get out of -able you don't have to live in it you don't have you don't have to suffer get out of -able I like that. Let's make adhd easier law is hard enough. You've talked about treatment and and I think I think the way I want to wrap Mabel move into it shortly here but but before we do You've talked about treatment starting with education right. It is literally about the first building block is learning what this thing is and demystifying it so that you understand what those challenges that need to be overcome and overcome are so that you can unlock that potential and so Speak just very briefly about the when you get treated Does it tend and to start with someone like you. A psychiatrist can start anywhere else in the world. You're absolutely right. The first step is education in sometimes begins by reading one of my books. You know. Sometimes it doesn't begin with a professional at all. They read driven to distraction or delivered from distraction and they have an for this hundreds if not thousands of times they start crying they say my God. How does this person know me sessile as even living with me I mean you know yes because in those I really drill down into the granular details of everyday life and far more than the stupid list of symptoms in the Dsm non-state stupid but it's very reduction mystic and it doesn't get the need of at all and so in those books I really really flesh it out? In these people men women children see themselves so vividly and they see themselves is portrayed in such a sympathetic way with with answers attached. This is what to do and so often the treatment if you will begins simply simply got reading a book or talking to somebody who understands and I'm going to drop that was In the show notes I will promote them everywhere in the entire world because that has been the the experience that I have had and the experience of folks that I have spoken with about my adhd in about what it looks like to start getting treated for Adhd as an adult I will you know driven to distraction then. Delivered from distraction are two extraordinary books And and if you have hard time reading them listen to him on audio book. They're tailable there too. So we'll drop those in But I think doctor I want to be respectful of your time especially here on your birthday very thankful for you And I think maybe the best way to talk about All of the positives literally as to point people to your entire body of work Those books the writing that you've Don Online The new book. That is coming out because I know that you believe it in your core that this is a strength I do too and but I should I want I just want to add. Add to that which I really appreciate your saying but my even greater achievement if you WANNA call it an achievement You might as well is is the thirty year marriage that I've had to the most wonderful woman in the world couldn't have even begun to do any of it without her and the amazing three children when we. We've we've had lucy US thirty and the Jack Who's twenty seven Tucker who's twenty four They a all inherited my. Add and they all are thriving. And and I often tell people I have achieved my life's most cherished goal which which is with sue leading the way my wife to give our kids the happy childhood I didn't have and and it's just a it again. Today is special bags turning seventy but that that is the that is what I'm most proud of and I couldn't have done it without understanding standing my add. I couldn't have done it without knowing why I am the way I am and what to do about it. If I just relied on chance I would've flubbed ABDUC over and over and over while I have a quote sitting in front of me that is resonant the key to a happy successful life is to pair up with the right person and find the right job so you can work in your sweet spot and that if I understand you doctor Hallo Is is is a pretty pretty clean and tidy way to describe your your perspective on this vast potential that we have with Adhd and the way that you bring it to us is is really critical. Say I have one favor to ask as we close. I have a listener. Her name is Liz and she has a question question for you. Okay hide after. Hallo this is Liz. My question is what is one thing that you wish the world would know about adults with. ADHD misty that if they will take it seriously and learn about it it can change their lives dramatically for the better. I think that's great and I think it's a really clean place to finish up. Doctor Hallo L. A.. Once again I can't thank you enough on behalf of my my family. We've we've read your stuff and we listened to the podcast but On behalf of a vast community of professionals and coaches and oh adults and kids with ADHD HD. The work. That you do is important your ambassadorship. Your role as the Godfather is wonderful and I can tell all of you find Dr Holwell. Find Him on his website. which is Dr Halloween Dot Com. He has from a stage in front of thousands of people said my personal email address is doctor. Hallo at g mail DOT COM and he. When I sent an email to that address he responded within minutes absolutely I want people pulled into the Dr? How long no period Dr Halloween g mail DOT COM? I'd love to hear from your listeners. In and back active for doing the favor you're doing attorneys. What a what? A huge group of people who could be really helped in a big way and then of course there's the ripple effect all their clients who get help and and you know so. It's like helping the doctors helping the attorneys. You know the really incredibly important professions where there's a higher than average rate of Uh of of this condition that I call Dr Happy Birthday enjoy it. Enjoy it so much and you know too. Many many more years of living with ADHD HD unchanging the lives of others who do as well. Thanks so much for the work eaters. Plump pleasure talking to you so that is Dr Ned. Hallo in all of his glory. I'll tell you what if you liked doctor. Hallo you can find him just about anywhere like I said in the intro. He's read like I said in the Intro he has written twenty one books about Adhd he is all over the Internet including his own website. Which is Dr Hallal Dot Com? You can find that distraction underscore pod on twitter or doctor. Hallo on twitter as you heard any episode you can literally email him at his g mail address. Doctor Hallo gmail.com that's Dr Hallo Oh L. H. A. L. L. O. W. E. L. at g mail DOT COM. This guy is the quintessential giver he wants to make the world world a better place by sharing the news about Adhd with an unflinchingly positive approach. And that's what you heard on this episode. That's what you read in his books six and you can hear dripping from his voice. He gave us a gift on his seventieth birthday was to talk to all of you about your Adhd. And I'm so thankful that he did it so so that's really it. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please reach out to me. Please connect with us. Let's do this together. Let's make adhd easier law is hard enough. Thank you for Sarah in your attention so generously the the single best thing you can do to support the podcast and this community is to help spread the word far and wide. Sleaze tell your friends and your firm's about it subscribed rate and review us your favorite pod catcher and please join our email list at the JD. Hd Dot com slash start. We wait until next time. Let's make A._D._H._d.. Easier law is hard enough.

ADHD Dr Hallo Oh L. H. A. L. L. O. Hyperactivity attorney Harvard Dr Ned Harvard J. D. HD Depression Marshall Talal Sam Glover Marlon Brando Winston Churchill Phillips Exeter Academy internship and residency Marceau twitter John Irving
Will a Hot Summer Kill COVID-19?

Weather Geeks

37:30 min | 4 months ago

Will a Hot Summer Kill COVID-19?

"Frequently. On this podcast, we've had discussions focussed around the impacts of weather and climate on society with the emergence of the novel Corona Virus Are Kobe Nineteen as we all know it even outbound ourselves contemplating what impacts whether in climate can have on the transmission of this mysterious and Ed Lee virus. Today we welcome to experts in the field of microbiology Dr, Lloyd Haw, and Dr Shawna massage, Shumate from the Department of Homeland Security Science and Technology Directorate, we'll discuss the main variables that affect this virus and how the changing seasons can affect its spread. We'll cove at nineteen continue to survive and thrive in the months to come. Let's find out. Thank you both for joining us on the weather. GEEKS. PODCAST. I'd be here. Make you having us. So I just want to jump in and Lloyd did I pronounce your name last name correctly? Yes Okay Great. I just wanted to make sure I always like to get but before we get into the covert nineteen and seasonality. This is a show that has a broad readership and listenership I should say, and so we like to get personal So mean, I'm curious how did you get involved or interested in your careers? I'll start with you show. Shawn. Sheriff. The first time I kind of thought about this particular career was when I was in high school and I saw the movie outbreak and I was just fascinated. By just viruses and the idea of containment and sort of the excitement of the movie and I thought that's what I WANNA do when I grow up and ironically I didn't actually choose a path that would take me to that end in college I went the route of engineering and somehow ended up still that same field and I'm sort of really grateful for that. But I yeah I've always wanted to understand infectious diseases and then what contributes their transmission and and how they affect people. In before we go to Luoi let me just give you a little bit of Shanas Bank Ground Dr Shana. Retinas are Shumate She is the senior principal investigator. Aero Biology for BTC EPA National Biodefense Analysis Encounter Measure Center for the Department of Homeland Security. National Biodefense Analysis and Countermeasure Center NBA See C. now, look these are government agency votes. They use a lot of acronyms I used to be at NASA know all about it as she focuses on understanding how different infectious diseases are transmitted the environment via droplets in aerosols certainly something we've heard quite a bit about with covid nineteen. Will get more into. She's a member of the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, emerging leaders in Biosecurity Fellowship program as it is an Adjunct Faculty member at the University of Nebraska Medical Center in Omaha and she received her PhD Biochem chemical biochemical in environmental engineering from the University of Maryland Baltimore County you NBC at which I also am very familiar with and know my good fraternity brother, Dr Freeman Bosque or the president there. Now I want to give you some Lloyd's credentials after he answers the question. So how'd you get into this Lloyd Sane Way I became interested During during high school, probably like a lot of people become interest in their careers with A. High School. Teacher. taught biology. And continuously challenged me and made resolved really gauging just kind of grew from that. Know. We always ask this question we meteorologist or whether types on typically there's an interest somewhere in the K. through twelve typically k through sixth grade level for a lot of the meteorology types that come on the show, and that's certainly my story as well. Let me give you a little bit of the background on Duck Lloyd huff. He's the lead for the hazard awareness and Characterization Technology Center HACK TC at the US Department of Homeland. Security Science and technology. Directorate. Hacked TC provides DA chests on s and t with core chemical, biological and explosive hazard awareness, and characterization to support the department's mission to prevent terrorism involving these materials He's a microbiologist responsible for technical direction of the biological threat characterisation efforts under the probabilistic analysis of natural threats hazards in risk program, and it looks like it has the cleverly thought-out acronym. BTS BTC bts. That's actually a K pop group for those out there listening familiar with the. BTC is charged with conducting studies of biological threat agents and associated technology as defined in the national biodefense strategy and to support the needs of the department and the Broader Homeland Security Enterprise and Dr Huff has his PhD in Microbiology with specialty in biotechnology from. Michigan. State University up there in Lansing Michigan. All right. So let's let's just dive right in now that we kind of we know who you are. When covert nineteen first came on the scene what? What were your first impressions of Loyd? Let's start with you. So honestly. I didn't think that much of it until it really wasn't when when they operate I again and we begin see basis in China. I was just going to be another outbreak. We've had outbreaks before we had an outbreak of the original SARS Groom Virus Two thousand four and I figured that the pollock health officials around the world would get it under control. It really wasn't until cases began arriving in United States, late January, and early February, and those began to grow control that I really recognize that we had a problem on your hands. Shown any additional things you won't to? Some early I did originally think that this would be contained like verse SARS outbreak and that it wasn't going to spread globally but I think break quickly became apparent an Anani- new bug immediately as a scientist, you become inquisitive you WanNa know is it different? Is it going to spread differently? So I was very eager early on to a to try to. Get involved with the science and start to study it. And unfortunately, it did take off. So that that happened. So rapidly I really feel like we're. Getting reminds minds wrapped around that was was sort of. It took longer than it actually took the virus to really spread. I. On Commercial Shepherd by the from University of Georgia and I'm talking with two colleagues from the Department of Homeland Security and contribute to Forbes magazine and I wrote an article very early on because there was all this speculation about the weather and hot season warm season summer will go away. You know CDC website was always fairly clear that this is a novel virus in the relationships. He warned clear as perhaps people's anecdotal understanding of the flu or the cold going away perhaps are subsiding someone warm season. So let's let's talk a little bit. Let's this is weather geeks. Let's Geek out. Let's Gig out a little bit on what we know not so much about corona virus and cope nineteen event of initially. But what do we know about how viruses and bacteria? Tin Respond. To certain elements the weather for example, he'd or rainfall or moisture. So whoever wants to take? John. I'm going to speak in generalizations now but I think one of the reasons why we? Initially. Anticipated that climate or environment may have some effect on the viruses because to date things like influenza and the common cold we definitely see seasonality. And in generally speaking higher temperatures higher relative humidities. And sunlight are all things that are. Historically, we have measured for a number of infectious diseases and has shown that it It decreases transmission rates and and you see less people coming back. Didn't we've done laboratory studies to show that all these types of organisms are inactivated in a laboratory when you replicate conditions nor so. It was sort of an an assumption that it would follow the trend that other more what I would say tenuously emerging or continuous diseases that are in the environment have have had in terms of climate, but I think. Perhaps the fact that it's so brand new to the population and that not relation hasn't been exposed. This is sort of what kind of through ass- in terms of what we're actually seeing right now in sort of this warmer climate where we're not seeing it weeks or something like flu and cold. I just curious because. I'm not an infectious disease expert, but just as a a meteorologist and climate science, this I was looking at some of the Asian countries that were sort of dealing with it early on and they were fairly sub-tropical and then again in April I I notice Florida and Arizona dealing with record heat. We're also dealing with it particularly interesting to see that we're. In what typically is the hottest part of the year in Georgia where I am Florida, Texas in we're seeing surges in cases. So I think for folks like you this will be a treasure trove of data. To learn from as we move forward, a have have there been any. Loyal come to you for this have there been any signs of seasonality in any aspects of cove nineteen. Thank you might be on mute there. We want to get you if I did there's only a leaf blower next door. Right on with we were talking about before we came on. Yeah, so there's There's no real evidence in the epidemiology four seasonality yet and I think that's probably because like Shawa said, nobody is immune to the virus that is now circulating nobody has preexisting immunity. And so at some point, we may see it become a seasonal affliction or now because everybody is susceptible to it, the weather is not having that most significant effect. So it's it's hard to say whether will be or won't be in the future. and I and I showed him inched in sunlight as well. Not just the heat but I've read and even document some cases where some aspects of the ultra-violet ultraviolet radiation. UV. Can have have an impact, perhaps a rapid heating. So for example, one of the things that I've started doing if I park my car. Outside if I'm running in the grocery store in the mall I live in the Atlanta area it's really hot here right now is I've started to keep my mask on the dashboard because I've heard that rapid heating and maybe you can help with that is that myth or am I doing something? That's somewhat right. No I definitely think you're doing the right thing and then Sean I can talk to the results that they generated laboratory but we've actually shown. Through laboratory studies at the virus is affected by both heat, humidity and temperature. And it does go away much more rapidly as the temperature, the humidity, and particularly some light. The alternate over Shana to talk about the experiments that we've done and the papers they published recent. I'd love to hear more about that. Sean. Birchall. So we've done two sets of so far with stars Koby to in our laboratories we looked at droplets. Wisher representative of the virus when it's expelled sort of costs and we looked at those on services and then we've also looked at the virus suspended Nara Saul. So you can think the more smaller buying particularly that are coming from the decline when people are reading and in both cases, we essentially exposed the virus in these two states to different temperatures, different relative humidities, and simulated sunlight these great solar simulators in our laboratory, and we can shine them through these courts windows and essentially exposed the virus. To the simulated sunlight athas, different temperatures, and relative mid-eighties, and we can look at. How much of the viruses infectious over time and what I can tell you is in the presence of simulated sunlight and meet you. At three different intensities that represent what we call sort of peak intensity, which is kind of like a UV index of Eight. So on a day where you're going to be concerned about wearing sunscreen. High amounts of light summer solstice around noon the virus is inactivated about ninety percent of it is in that speed on the order of seven minutes. So, definitely leaving your Amazon box on a hot day in the style you know hoping it's not chocolate or something. so that's not melting but. Leaving it outside in the sunlight, you're going to definitely see a decrease, the amount of virus on that material and the same with the window. One in a caveats window is a lot of glasses don't glass materials don't allow a lot of UV light to penetrate, and we believe that it's the UB component of natural sunlight that is causing most of that inactivation But yeah, we definitely found even as a winter solstice around noon you'll see inactivation of the virus in our studies. Within about thirty. Minutes so. You know there's lots of caveats. Cloud cover or it's in the shade, but definitely, sunlight inactivates it very rapidly and as Lloyd mentioned We do see some correlation as well with increasing temperature and also with increasing relative humidity. So all of the same factors that we've seen historically for other biological. Do seem to contribute to the inactivation of virus in terms of those parameters. In, laboratory, studies. And we are back on the weather podcast. I'm Dr Marshall Shepherd from the University of Georgia and I'm speaking with Dr Lloyd, Huff and Dr Shannon Retinas are Shumate from the department. Of Homeland Security. And the sort of generic title of this podcast episode is will a hot summer kill covert nineteen? Well I think we already know the answer to that to some degree if you're anecdotally seeing what's going on but I think it's a bit more nuanced of a question for those of us that are scientists I think will learn more about this. Loyd what about rainfall I mean I'd heard some people back during their earliest shutdown saying, well, you know if it rains, it's GonNa wash it if wash it off the playgrounds and various things that are outside and the kids can go play. We know anything about rainfall in its ability to wash away the virus or is it really sort of soap and disinfectants that really are the most important thing? I I, don't think we have specific data on the impact of rainfall. On on the virus outside I think what you'll find is most of the transmission is really version I. and relatively quick rain. So the CDC says that they're not able to see a lot of They don't see a of roles of objects that we might touch like playground. There may be some they're not detecting in their denia logical studies. So range rainfall certainly wash virus off we just don't have a lot of data on that to be able to contribute. You would expect it to be washed out of the year Irene Ball you would expect to be washed off services but that won't necessarily you know anybody who's sneezed on something and didn't clean it up or had a kid he's on and you haven't had a chance to clean up the it becomes kind of crusty eight might stay on there and it might not be easily washed off. So it's always best take precaution in soon that it has. been washed off and make sure you're cleaning those surfaces before you go ahead and touch. Don't want to shift gears a little bit because I've heard or read that the type of seasonality type of weather tap of air quality pollution might actually make some people more susceptible. To symptoms if they have a positive taste test or have. been infected with the virus. Is there. Any evidence that poor air quality for example, exacerbates the impacts of this virus or any other types of conditions that we know about non China I'll come to you for that. I think it's too early in this particular outbreak and for this particular virus. I don't really know how much virus is needed to cause infection. So. We we need to develop those models preliminarily and understand that first of four we start to look at different types of populations, different actors that are getting contribute to shifting that either left or right. I, do know that there is evidence or other types of infectious diseases like asthma smoking poor air quality can suppress the news or potentially contribute to more susceptibility. But definitely don't think today I've seen anything published that talks about that for stars Kobe typically. Right. No. I'm looking through some of the production notes here. That are outstanding. Production staff typically provides for me in preparation for the PODCAST, and they note that the DHS has created a website that has developed calculators, which allow you to alter the environment to see how covid will respond to surface decay in airborne decay. Can one of you enlighten me on this website and where combined it. Sure, so on the. Public website. GO TO DA DOT Gov. You will find there's a banner across the top. and. You can get to there from you can get to those calculators fraud that Banger. There's a lengthy appears. And if the link does not appear, then you can simply. Go. In and go down to the science and technology page and is again linked directly from the science and technology homepage. Those calculators are really They were intended and developed to try and take Jada, that Sean and her colleagues generated and have now published scientific papers and made more readily accessible. Make it more readily usable to people who do have any Chris to know how Virus. Disappear. Under. Certain. Conditions. Right. Now, the calculators are limited by conditions in China and colleagues test so whether or not on why it was included in those studies. Service calculator does not presently include sunlight as decanting factor. It only includes the temperature and humidity. So it's currently more representative of Benin your environment and your weather. Impacting whereas a airborne decay include sunlight temperature, and humidity and incorporates the the incorporates a computational models of formulas in China. Her colleagues were able to develop from the data they collected in the laboratory. And speaking of into or whether if you will, I've been hearing a lot of rumor and Innuendo or perhaps truth to the notion that. By air conditioning systems and buildings and restaurants. So the problem what can you tell us about that? Either of you go back to Shana here. Yet well. Think about it indoor conditions tend to be very dry. Relative humidity is driving age back systems in our in our experiments. What we've seen obviously is that at lower relative humidities, the virus does survive longer. One of the things about indoor depending on the each back system and the airflow system. Is that it's recirculating very often times it's not. It's not an end in an and then outright, and so you have sort of this accumulation of material, and if you have a population that is breathing just breathing in potentially shutting virus, that material is concentrating in this environment and obviously there's lots of caveats, nurse, different types of designs that go. Ajax. With very different. But yeah, that is a huge concern and also we. Tend to keep indoor conditions at lower temperatures so that we're more comfortable will again and we have seen in our studies for indoor conditions that yeah, you know slightly lower temperature a virus does survive better. So to some degree, it's it's we're our own worst enemy in that were we create environments to be comfortable but unfortunately, they're also great environment for the virus as well. But it's hot, Sean, it's. Really No, but I get it. I. Completely. Get it in so. Many ways I think we are our own worst enemy. So Should we or should. Be. Is this a suggestion from you. All are the CDC that people bump up temperature some or have humidifiers in their homes are in their rooms or is it not to the point that we can make that type of recommendation yet? So. And I don't say that we actually have the kind of dating. and. The hard part. is everybody's air conditioning systems different. Other factors liar roles such as much fresh air's your conditions bring in from the outside. How leaky is your whole? Then you have what kind? Do you have on your on your air conditioner and how how old is that? have. You replaced it. You know sometime soon or recently. All of that as has new GM hands I think can say this is still the CDC guidelines are a right. You WanNa limit your congregation with large groups should be he wants to make sure that you can socially distance. She wanted to be able to say at least six feet away from other people. And wear a man's is the best thing that we can do for us and Argon another's than. Those same stays with us. A. One thing that has come up a few times and conversations is You have to keep in mind that if you increase humidity indoors and and you're in Georgia and Florida. That's not sustainable because it actually contributes to the growth of other things like molds which have a negative. Impact as well. So yes, it's. It's worse than the virus, but you're also creating another problem that's kind of one of the trade offs that. We've talked about. Do you increase your age to decrease the virus? Now you've got this other problem grade itself. And we are back on the weather beat podcast. I'm Dr Marshall Shepherd from the University of Georgia and being with Dr Lloyd Hoffman Dr Shawn Retinas Shumate of the Department of Homeland Security and we're talking about corona virus and environmental conditions and look we're talking with to actual expert. So forget that facebook post or that tweet. From your uncle who's not an expert in this we're talking to. Get right to the core. We're talking to people who know the subject rather than those. It's speculated about it on social media, and that's important because a lot of misinformation out of innuendo getting around social media about this I we go right to the source now I WANNA come down the lane of something that we in the meteorological community are very familiar with and that's model. So we make. Predictions of our weather one day two days, three days, seven days out using models they solve complex equations, Navy your stokes equations are fluid dynamics, models, etc. we have the Selahs name Tropical Storm Gonzalo out there right now as we're taping this. How are models used in the world of viruses and? And this is something I've actually challenged some people on our ask the question about. Because I know in the weather were all know of, for example and others there's a very concerted effort to sort of produce sort of a state of the art weather forecast modeling system whereas appears to me and please correct me if I'm wrong that there are multiple sort of groups that have their own malls the so to speak, there's not sort of a national model. If you will like, there's a national American s model European model. Just. Tell us a little bit about and I'll go to Lloyd I tell us a little bit about models and viruses and. Where we are with them and where we need to be with. And shortly. So. Biologists use models. A lot of the same ways that urologist do unfortunately our models are. Not Nearly as mature. And they suffer from a lack of a lot of de here's a lot of things about irises we just don't know. And other jurors it's not just limited dividers. So. Because of some of those limitation, we probably a lot more assumptions and it's not just physics or thermodynamics drives what we're doing. There's a lot of other factors that play. I'd people. Allergy. Everybody's biology is different. Whether or not you? Use for this morning might have an impact on your susceptibility ability. Whether or not you take certain medications may have an impact on your susceptibility. A lot of these things are simply how. But we use a wide variety malls and rush models are both somewhat. They're not nearly as blacks we use in I. Think there are a lot simpler because we focused on smaller aspects of of. A particular phenomenon. In, epidemiology and their wasp MOMS and a lot of those models are very carefully tuned to Neapolis station being used for us. Oh, DHS malls that tried to assess national rich or national hazard. By Biological Age. When we? Were generalized were generalizing New York in Los. Angeles and Illinois Elfi. MOSHING is larger cities and were generalizing other small cities like Columbus, Ohio and other places and we do that we're trying on your stand national risk were trying which one represents a significant risk of homeland security. But then there are other instances where. CD. Maybe running a model where they're trying to predict a number of hospital beds and the calculations are different for for each nerve models other people may be looking at. Consumption of medical equipment or maybe looking at impact a travel across borders. so every model is tailored to its purpose and a lot of the data is again unknown for for a lot of the lot of the the viruses diseases that were concerned about we just don't have radio hallows, viruses interact with us as host. I know one thing that we both suffer from both our modeling communities is the initial condition problem our initial condition. As the atmosphere, we send that weather balloon satellite information. So forth, initialized these models forward in time and I imagine there are similar initial condition issues too. But they're just different as you mentioned challenging dill. Decisions and physical physical and microbiological traits of the human being and so forth. So I can imagine that would be quite the challenge shot out I want to start to wrap up a bit with a discussion about where people can find out what you're up to because my census from talking both viewing having worked as a federal scientists at NASA myself. People may not be familiar with the fact that you are research scientists you published in the Science Literature Peer Review Literature as well. Tell us about sort of the ultimate tour big picture goal of what your units are doing for the overall. Mission is simply Aren de functioned as it eventually have some kind of applications transfer I'll start with you shawn and then come to to boy. Sure so My role specifically is, is I'm the scientists in the lab. Great. So We. Identify capabilities that we have that are very specific to understanding parameters for transmission of the virus things that like I. Can Look at the effects of temperature and relative humidity and sunlight or doing developing animal models. We take sort of gaps in information as they're identified by Homeland Security and and basically go into a laboratory and study them and try to understand them and Kurt provide data that can be used by not only homeland security with the broader public health community and the public in general to help make informed decisions about how. To minimize their risk of contracting the virus and so primarily, my job is to do the science and the research and make sure it's good quality that it agrees and is is is pure renewed that the community agrees with results that we guide and and get it out there as soon as possible in an a good format that is usable to everybody, and then you're Lloyd and his program, take it from there. And Lloyd pickup discussion. Yes. So Do da works closely with our partners across the United States government and across the the Department of Homeland Security and and our job is really to take and nuts conduct studies better understand what are what are requirements what are? Where are we concerned? We need a detector that might this virus do we need? Do we need something screen passengers at a at your. So we work with different components and and our other partners across across the entire United States government and now in the whole Homeland Security Enterprise. So we were with states locals and and companies trying to identify what those fees are, and as we as we do that, we then conduct research. What we try to research at both informs our understanding of the problem and help provide some solutions. So in addition to the the word, John's opt about we evaluated different disinfectants means at cleaning environments where working. To try and make sure that passengers do Jews onto an airplane Oregon. Room. Their security checks stately and our without creating contaminated environments. That the planes can be can be decontaminated for also ways of reusing. Because he is in limited supply already. So are there ways that we can extend this allies? MVP by going through. Going through laboratory studies and we do this within a within the context of understanding at risk is so we start with with the requirements that come from from DHS components and other partners, and then we evaluate what others have already done. What other scientific groups have already done in space. 'cause we don't WanNa do McCain science unnecessarily. So, produce the the master question. which is a document also available on the DHS website. Tries to break down specific stars, Rome virus into about fifteen questions. What do we need to know about virus? So we need to know is this virus infections what is that does? What is the? What is the dosage? Or you have to yes were to get sick. The next question would be, can you treat it? What treatments are available, and so we kind of go through this very extensive process of understanding what is already out there, and then we turn the requirements for folks. Is Blab like Shauna to begin dance orders questions? Anna the stability of the virus in the environment was one of those big gaps we knew that we didn't have data on on its stability in the atmosphere or instability on services once land. And that led to the work that Sean has done in our colleagues had done up Gandak. and. It just really illustrates the importance of the research and development aspect of all of the federal agencies including. And on behalf of myself and my colleagues here where the weather channel, we just want to thank you all's dedicated. Professionals helping us all get through this and hope we will get through it. and. Hopefully, we're learning more each time for the next one of the next outbreak that comes along where where can people find out more about either of your. Operations or perhaps you on social media or your our organizations on the web, give us some websites or social media sites. WWW. Dot Gov. Star is a great place to start from there. You can get the Science and Technology Directorate. And A Google search for the National Biodefense Analysis and garments or center will quickly find you. A similar gauge on the website. About Anything had. On those same websites, you can actually find all links to all of the publications in different journals for our work as they are pushed out, and so it will link directly to the different journalism we've published. Now in two different journals, we have about five additional manuscripts that are in preparation. So if you go to that particular website, you can track them sort of in real time as they become available and follow our work. I'm just curious. So you guys both based in the DC area or are you distributed around the nation? In Frederick Maryland. And back is located at Fort. Neutra sure I used to live in Germantown Maryland right up down the road. So very jobs just curious because I know a lot of people. Always, curious about where some of these folks that we talked to or distributed Let me just get to something I have to get to you doesn't involve youtube, but it's Geek of the week we do it every week we like to highlight a scientist superstar great geologist or whether we at the end of every podcast, this episodes Geek of the week is Spencer Halt Spencer as a young forecaster from Chattanooga Tennessee he has his own youtube channel where he gives weekly weather forecast for the mid South and covers breaking severe weather including this past Easter Sunday Tornado outbreak. Keep up the Great Work Spencer and you'll be on our TV in no time. If you or someone you know it'd be a deserving candidate for our next geek of the week check out our social media page at twitter and facebook. Dr Marshall Shepherd from the University of Georgia thank you both for joining us on the podcast cast today. Thank you. Thank you all offer listening. Hey, let's get through this wear. Your mass social distance will get through it and we'll talk to you next time on whether.

Dr Lloyd Department of Homeland Securit Sean I CDC DHS University of Georgia Homeland Security scientist Dr Shawn Retinas Shumate Dr Shana Lloyd huff Dr Marshall Shepherd Department of Homeland Securit China United States NASA Lloyd National Biodefense Analysis Loyd
IDKWNTHT-Track 3(PlayStation 2)

P.S.A Podcast

41:31 min | 6 months ago

IDKWNTHT-Track 3(PlayStation 2)

"WHOA The privacy sport. PODCAST. PODCAST! Outside the box a real life it's. Clever narratives original quotes anticrime use the satire order to the audience from negative paradigm. Put their own persons brought. This is by no means to them or best is, but instead encourages showcase a respect. It might not be before PSA designed to showcase. Listen to the power of the mind is not a joke, and if a personal control your mind and thought they will also be control their luck. This podcast podcasters entertainment educational purposes only. Not replaced. Or other types of professional hills audience. May say some crazy. You do some to you. An aim by the boom Bam arm calling the police. You being Karen Right now. Now you known phone. Hey, police, hello, hello, now you want them. PULL UP ON. Daddy's time and stuff. You don't even have to do none with these people you just you know getting money. You Monday just like conversation. You go out to win them. Now we all have voices on long be people have voices for this that the third, but certain people's are things. You may be going Nacho laying in so. Before we get started with today's episode, we have to give a shout out to a few of our sponsors shot to the sponsor. Today's episode cannot be famous. Dot Com our website that will teach you to steps. Give you the keys to become the biggest influence and taking your life to the next level you become an online superstar without having a sale, your saw or by fake was and take your business brand to a level that supersedes what you could ever imagine star Trek business. The website cannot be famous dot com, all lower case or hit a country cowboy instagram for more information. Listen, I understand it's hard to be nutritious in today's society. That's what juice plus comes in. Juice plus is a brand new line of dietary supplements, containing concentrated fruit and vegetable juice extracts fortified with added vitamins and nutrients. I right is something that help you of vegetables and fruits that you need daily. Are you GonNa? Do is take some capsules and do there, and you'll see an increase in your immune system. You'll see reduced doctor visits. You'll notice. You just feel lighter healthy throughout the debt I'm using myself so I. Notice stuff works like I said. said it's hard to get your fruits and vegetables in you know because in reality to keep up with all the fruits of vessels that you need daily is kind of impossible, so this makes it very possible. I'm also a partner. If you like to get juice plus starting with different plants that can be set up for you days affordable and keep them coming monthly. Hit me up on instagram. Underscore easy bake, oven or twitter underscore easy bike of apple your. People have been dry heat. No My free style, but you know you just mad because it's better than your faves, you know. Ma Freestyle is GONNA put. A lot of your home may represent Abe's for Ya, even started. And that's why you may you know. That's that's why you mad and I know it. And I know why, but you know you know it's is sort of. Buffer real. Whistle. We back for track three? Trick WanNa. Try to drop. You know this ain't week now as the risk of tape progresses. Is Only GonNa? Be One episode a week you know. But that'll mean angle defy it. You Know Saga Jonjo the first two parts. Good feedback reviews good. You know stuff coming into. That was good in. Track three is going to be. It's going to follow suit of track to as far as you. Know! Who needs hideous, but I think this one might be a little more tense as far some of the topics discussed. So you know, find you a good seat. Car. SEAT BELT is on. Tight, you know if you laying down, get up and You are right. Today's episode is titled Playstation Two. The memories I don't know who needs to hear it is. But you can win when you play dirt. Is Customer video by Jay? Wolfson Youtube American another look when I started doing research for this I saw veto. He thought it was pretty good and I might. Any check it out and I might Yards new Jay. Sam might do nothing Check it out. Quotes I've been made on several TV. Shows you know several as cartoon reality show like I've heard that phrase a lot, so I decided to give my take on. Of course you know personal experience. Playstation two Yalo. Sony playstation two was one of the biggest systems in the history systems I'm sure everybody had we had one. You could have one brother had one. You know it was a system that you know was for some legendary games. Probably I feel like the most legendary. Or Classic Games in history was on playstation two. And it will have nothing to do with this, but I. I thought diddy dirty money. I repeatedly group for he had for Mindy Him. One of the of One of his group's end he was. Who used to write songs? And then they will you know? Diddy bopping all across the nation, the probably GonNa head last train appears. Albums crazy. Mexican, we download that you know that was a hideous time I think. So, we talk about playstation to. Some of the best games on the playstation two that I can think of some of these are actually you know according to several sources, I think. Greg, follow you know you'll pass the Prodi play practice. was late you got devil may cry admirably, Gang Electric, scared to play with our jug, actually played through. That I wanna I think there might be my summer project to play the three of them if I can be time, but I'm busy, but I would like to play through all of them as an adult. One Emma favorites metal gear to what? That gangs crazy you know I got hooked on when I was younger when I was playing original one on the playstation, and they had one two, three, four five, so intense, you know. In a residue before you know, I play resident evil. Be Scared, you know, but it's okay 'cause it'd be fun. It is one of the things whereas like is too scared with the like I won't their fear in my life, even though you don't you know that fear, fear of nothing else, but it'd be like a funfair. Don't be like a a scary bear fear that makes sense, maybe maybe not. Are Now. Let's get into today's storytime today. Story is tidal play Pal. Randy was a standup kind kinda guy. He was a founder owner. Result clothing line other businesses will. He was just a overall Syria entrepreneur. Even though he was a serial entrepreneur, his clothes where his prized possessions that was something he started when he was a little kid. He always had you know a desire or a love for fashion close in as he got older, that's what he did. He always played by the rules even watched. With that being said everyone has their limits. Rainy will go all around the city, promoting his brandon college campuses, concerts festivals, even beaches there was another group of guys who also had fashion line, and we'll talk down rainy, trying to talk down on his business because of their hatred and jealousy of his success. Renting nor for very longtime y'all long time, but after a while, he decided to play a game. He started to best products social media through subliminal post around Tau. In although he felt better. Both parties continue to keep them going and both started to get deemed as missing professional amongst the entire city. With that being said one can see nobody. Our Reis Alyssum story everything. Come to you, tip, also you know. Here's the thing. Will we put out the comeback? We know that, but at some time they're gonNA be tons of people going to do things to you. This hurtful hateful traditions high ago, but when you stoop down to their level you, I feel like the good that you did put out. It may come back comeback as intense because you didn't kind of blocked yourself because you start like fighting hate with hate. You know you know the song. Is a song we were somewhere and it was the video for the future Kelly roller will wanNA never eat. Remember the song I used to like this like like twenty thirteen, but that's what I started becoming mainstream shot to the home future you know. Going be twenty. Twenty is a lot going on, but we're going to be. Van Other lesson is you'll meet somebody that play hard, and he you so I feel light. Although we didn't get to that, and this is one stores that are you are creating that I wish I could really win. More details about really could've kept going, you know. I probably would have ended up by saying how that group would admit somebody that would've just. Obliterate them because it was like you go. Meet somebody that you'll meet your match. That's anything so you know you just to be prepared for that anything that you any kind of piggyback off the compensation last week about being prophet. You meet somebody better than you do all the stuff that you think you good at better than you, so it's like when you did. That you meet somebody who's doing better than you. It's like okay will and and better at which you think you're good at. You know is kind of art. You know they. They got your attitude and they're good at what they do and a better at what they do. Then you are what you do you do decide things they better and they've got accolades for. Trophies, they might have the fan base. They might have following you light I'm better than him, but his light. Saves who you know. It s a slippery slope Skip off them, so yeah, our so went to define play. Dirty defrays play Gertie. Assist cheat a used deceitful tactics. Go the win or succeed somehow Orissa keep that definition back. He hit as we go along without. Bring it up periodically. Get which product will all right so let's move on to my favorite today. Q. Tna courses than the address question? The first question that needs addressed what comes to your mind when I hear the word. Phrase play dirty so me personally when I heard the phrase played thirty I instantly think of politics I honestly think of you know a senator governor, president. Even the you know I. Think people. Who are the you know, get the revelation to people who are doing something because politics. We knows dirty game that's cut for. We know that you know and you know these days which boy Donald Trump in him in a child porn came up in all the crazy stuff in. It's just you know. Even the word elect trump I'm not a trump supporter, but at the same time. What I can't say that I respect about trump is. He's very blatant where he feel a lot of these other presidents. Don't ever bring up. was sneaky like he he. You know when you would you know what you're getting? Well I think he hilarious, but you know what you're getting. Some of these other ones. They were sneaky, and then was fake. Basically him. He like what it is, either like don't. Other Courtney's address who had a playstation? Two of course you know idea I was blessed to have pledged to X. Box, but you know some people just only had xbox of people never had a playstation. Two most people deal, but if they didn't go, they could have played game. You know I. Know What to do didn't have his sister head. He's to be mad about Lujan goes crazy, but a music. Why are you supposed to get? The story for another day, but year is one you know I. got appears phone now get a PS five when it dropped will not win. It dropped because for me. Was Systems phones? I let you know the first few one struck first, so you can get rid of the the AIDS bags and stuff in need. Come like this time next year I'll get the swagger disposal. Drop this fall. I'm awake now Mike. Trading peaceful. Will seek your third. When do you feel as though there are times when playing dirty is necessary? To. We all, could you know we take a breath after opposite? Yes, you know really never right to cheat and to you know, play dirty. Let me throw out that disclaimer I. You know there is never you know is never right to do some of those things, but when people do of course, we walk in the flesh, so we don't have our moments is one of those things where it's like. It was justified in the flesh. I'll say that you know. Any the last one. Have I ever play dirt? Years up later before it's been times where I was told that I was playing dirty, doing things like conniving and I wasn't I was like no I did every issue I just say okay. time I'm so happy to God that we dig Libya time where I'll be trying to argue people down. No, this is what I'll do that. You having impression to me. You Think I. Did do something I do. Okay, I'm GonNa, say I didn't do it and if you'd be You, know I think disparate, and was just so we on personal experience I have a few situations where guess I play dirty. You know but I caught myself after while I remember one time eighth grade was a seven. Matter of fact, I'm not telling this store. I'M GONNA. Tell the story about a justified. Playing dirty if it was even justify well now, it was justifiable if it even counselors playing dirty. MEF You. Know no I'm excited store for later on just. We move on right now. So example of playing dirty for those that don't know. There's sports stains you know. Shave points paying Reps. we got people go hard in the paint than playing unnecessarily. Nicholson necessarily rougher player extremely rough. Those School Charles Barkley. Some people who used to be down there you know almost punched folks in the face while some cases he d, You know we know examples of. People Snake people for the jobs you know people. Will you know say they not going for Java? Go for any anyway or go for job anymore. Qualify Ages look examples like slur stuff like that. You know taking somebody from somebody else you know brandy. Monica. Boy's mind, you know Russia r Kelly saying girl, you take it somebody from somebody or you know talking down somebody for somebody that kind of thing. Push someone to fight in call in the police. You know trying to press charges. In tagging is the make them eat. You make those sites on crazy you do some to you. Enable by the boom by the Bam. You know all I'm calling the police. You being a CAIRN right now. Get on the phone. Hey, police, hello, hello, now you want them. pull up on you. It's a special place in Hell for people. And then I think you know playing dirty. You know like those reality game shows you know. They had the survivor back in the day. My most recent one more more recent was after that like the challenge. You know MTV. My favorite was love money. When they had the people from like flavor, love and stuff on there. You know few weeks ago. Two weeks ago, we went to big rivers water park. The everybody goes. Kinda Fun. They had his lake at have like obstacle. Course and obstacles like is not flood of week of faint of heart like if you K- swim, you don't need to go greenwich that give you a life jacket you swim. You don't need to go. If you know you don't have a strength, you probably don't need to go because it ain't GonNa have fun. By the time I really started getting the hang of. It was time to go only because they give you forty five minutes, but we was ready to get on now. For those just to get on now you only have twenty three minutes left, so we got on with the twenty three, but I look back. We did forty five Go through the whole thing. I had two friends that was under. You know some marijuana you know at the. The droves smoking tweets. I didn't because I. Don't do drugs anymore. But, if I were tested done drugs, and when I did, I would have been stuck and I probably would cry. Even know how to swim. the whole. Ambience of the right word for, but the whole atmosphere was just like a lot. You know so I practice dot crying, eyeing fake. Our I so. There are a few reasons why people. I've identified you know. Play dirty or try to cook throat. Outset is because typically because they want something that's. When? It's something that you guys. They want something that they, won't they. They feel like they need that. You know they WANNA win as the second one, so they WANNA win whether it be gang whether it be a contest. They WANNA. Win Some people. You know they just like abused power. They got pile. You know some say that fame. Money is a monster, but I think powerless to will. Abusing it, because sometimes publican goes to the wrong people here. That's why when you want to be on certain platforms and certain levels with their power. You are definitely thinking need to heart. Check I because. You know sometimes too fast will be feel like. A curse because it came through. So that's why I like being his own pace that I'm going, and then when the time is right or happen. Initially I feel and then the last one. Some people just enjoy breaking the rules a some just like saying screw the rules allow only like this I. WanNa like that on the why guide my mind. Juvenile I like it like that. She worked Everybody wasn't slow motion. Juvenile his back in the day. You know, shout out to him wherever he would if he do. Now. People are willing to do whatever it takes anything that they want now. This may sound like an shock for episode that I'm doing, but that isn't always a bad thing. Because according to life hat dot com. There's an example by Dean Bahari where he shares a few tips. How successful people get what they will? Now he had quite a few, but as far as time, and because of what I felt, Ordine was most important. I think these really stand out, so you know they want by any means you know, and in some cases, it's like a survival mindset. Some people that's all they know survival. You know of course mindset, not saying that you know they need to live with it forever, but we have to be a little understanding with some people because I. Don't have our mindset i. just you know because if have a hustle one that was built as I got older without even naturally have that one. Case for us with our CEO, just saying, but for Real I didn't never have survival need to people. They still got in it and they just cutthroat. You know when I think of survival mindset. Mafia examples that come to mind is like a sugar baby. You know you got mom sugar. Daddy used these people but money because some examples with these sugar people in these sugar. Mamas sugar daddies and that kind of stuff. You don't even have the do nothing with these people you just you know getting a money like they just eat Monday. Just like your conversation. you go out to them now. Some of them with gus go they. They would all of that. They would everything they would it. They want it all so many I'll be doing, and then of course I also think of a scam. You Know USA value scam in these big. Big businesses again. I don't know who needs hit his you scam. Stop Now 'cause I'm telling you if you don't stop now. You Ain't GonNa be like Wahdat Wahdat tells the stores his gamma days. Hindi call. He got out wide. Getting was good. Some. You're trying to keep doing and trying to do it for the rest of your life is look. Stop now. Be Able to tell the story about how you game for fact. I was scheduled for a minute. Yup Yeah sure it was. It was twenty thirteen. It, so it was It was like okay, so basically, what happened was. no. No. I'm not telling that story uses gives me later site. come to me off the air in a story income getting the Hail now, so the other one is they are Certif- which I'm awful being assertive. I'm all being set off a plenty of foot down. Saying like no this. Is this a yes, the on believing you know being a Yes name. You know they learn. That's the third one I'm off. Learning knowledge is Powell a something. I saw on somebody instagram post in were saying read books more. They high everything I'm telling y'all. They had everything in these books. y'All need to root them. For. They asked a lot of accelerated courses I. don't understand some while when Moore was Because I'm trying to figure out you know. The I like to know the why you know everybody's wine. A lot of wives are different the fifth when they take action. In the six is the contribute. So you know what it means to give now there is a flip side to all of these because I'm like okay. Somebody that's willing to do you know willing to get what they want by any means. There's a good way to do in a bad way to do it in a bad way. It's Kinda like you plan dirty so i. feel like there are flipside Aldi, so let's go back down the list again. Talk about the negative way, so you know the first one already kind of talked about with the scamming stuff. That's the negative. You know. They know what they want. Because it's like you know what you're trying to get as you are trying to be, you know a model or something. You know. You don't have the resources, but you know somebody that does. You intentionally being cooled with somebody or kissing up to some main in the business, only was made. It can be models to and vice versa, but you know kissing somebody in the business. Who got some money? And you know you don't like them like that, but you still entertaining them dancing whigham, kicking with a maybe smashing him I. Don't Know Your Business. You know just going off of what has happened now. We're meet, but just people in the. The world and you plan dirty. Because using resources you know you. Are you know being strategic in how you're going about things? You are very deceitful, because you make anything maybe like them. A mega jaw cool like the really just trying to money resources than you're gonNA. Drop them like that, you know. Drake stated best, you know. He was looking for revenge off some sixteen playing dirty, not clean. Isla are used to be saying that you know. Some twenty. I'm playing So you know there's they're. Now, being assertive. You just come off like a whole like you know you just be rude. Unnecessary light, of course that ain't cool. You know with learn in the third one, the negative side to learn his a bad way to learn as far as knowledge is power, but. It can be bad if you using like trying to learn ways to get over. Ways to like snake, people or learn some about somebody that you can use against them later like I, just got the image of like office. A office you found out somebody did something you know, say somebody. A friend opened up to you at work about how they miss work. Because they went to party or something, they went out of town. They told him they were sick because they knew they will let them take off. And then it's time for promotions. everybody's competing, and then information is magically leaked, but it ain't magically leak. You don't WanNa leaked it whether you tell somebody blatant, or you just Kinda. Sneak it out there that kind of thing. For is that negative? Ask Questions year because again you asking questions to kind of go with three US courses kind of like find out some information that you can use later on somebody or take the idea you know. That kind of thing messed up. The, fifth one take action isn't a negative side taking action. Absolutely because you could take the wrong action, you could say you know Kinda like the store. You could just be tiffin tat with people just like you know you take an action, but you're not taking good action. You get what I mean. Analysts contribute so the opposite of contributed to take you know so you just take, take, take take take, and that's not good. You're not always of course to take in so a Lotta guys. Will Not every case always alright. Now George, Bernard Shaw said never recipes both dirty in the pigs like. WHO! Am I calling up. But I know who was referred to as such. As the police. Now I personally don't hate police. Actually some friends as police you know. I remember growing up my daddy to be like you anything but a police officer. I just thought that was so fun. Even I never wanted to be one, but you know I'm just saying I think I told him when we plan. Cops arrive which one would you? You've been not been copying like. Relax breath. Relax! SA- game. But let's talk about. Let's talk about police brutality this. Let's be going all right. I found some stats about police brutality from Mike Dot Com, as twenty fitting. Twenty twenty nine says blacks are three times more likely to be Keel. Allow the victim under age eighteen, and it says forty the six percent who was shot and killed unarmed now. Those last statistic probably went up a little bit, but you know I don't know I'm not as the Titian I well I am a homemade statistics, but I don't play with numbers like this. You know I'm not going to do that one, but you gotta pay homage to George Floor you know our PD him. His family were not his family, but you know the him, and you know all of what they're going through. In the whole craziness of the situation were A. Kinda goes to what I've said before. Sometimes, it needs that that A. Crisis Situation for things. Go to the next level. It's good to see. People are doing something and I my hope is that they keep it going. Here's the thing. I'll also always at P.. R. P. To. Dr Freeman at Texas, Southern, university for those jotted. I was debating for a year and a half. I wish I would have been a little longer, but. The just the lessons in things that he talked about speaking at just other life lessons just transfer over into just life. Period is just amazing. Man was hundred. You know in a young people. Don't live like that normal. You know I think I got a few families that might, but you know. People don't live like that anymore. So you know he was aged and you know he. He definitely was legend for those that don't know. He was the one that you know. Help them when they did the great debaters, so it was you know that was that was say, but you know. Death is something that is inevitable. That's just that's just how life go, so. Here's the thing plan. Dirty and police brutality N. Equality Monique said in the video that I dropped this past week. She said inequality, not you know. Hurtful isn't that intense? So why should we be intensify what we do with that being said. I personally do not think that there is nothing wrong with protests than I don't think that anything is wrong. Be Mad! We are human. We are not you know guy we are, we are. We have emotions in our most can't get the best of especially as a black man in this society where you know systematic racism, any inequality is definitely real so for me. It's when people of Color especially black folks especially like is not as real as Kinda. Crazy to me when I say that now do I. believe that we should be i. hear looting and rioting I mean no, but is one of them. them things whereas like I. Mean People feel like this will be gotta do is what we gotta do. I'm just like a I. AIN'T GONNA. Be Looting Riding. My issue does come with the people who are only doing it, because they just following a wave, and they just doing it because a lot all yeah, also free shoes, you WanNa, pick me up some shoes I got you appreciate. You're not drop you off a few dollars, but I'm just saying that people who just doing it for that reason, people were actually doing because they want to see a change because they are angry at what Happ-. Do again. The protests are working, but this I do believe that we need a device strategy and how we come back this because I don't believe we just didn't be quiet, but at the same time you know the it seemed like the rise of down anyway, but you know they did their job to extent so I mean I can't say that they didn't work. It is a little song you know, but is definitely need something that can be have to be done as going to. You know change something people. Just I hate how people feel like. We don't need to do nothing because it is highly is. Because if that's the case, then we should never fight for nothing. You know what I mean so we'll be. That some say. But also my issue does come with two. When they say boycott eating certain restaurants I'm not finished off in Stop in Waffle House. The reason people saying boycott what I read was because they feel like you know all these people The people were supporting trump that was the issue that people were supporting trump, and I'm not GonNa Stop Eating Waffle House I'm not old Popeye's I'm just not too too bad. Yeah, just be mad at me and is going to be something. You're not actually going to be I. Somebody will call the negative. Which Doing Hager Triangle. Get some Igla already ate and. Ate A waffle. You ate a waffle. Where would I a waffle wisdom bacon grease some eggs, some raisin toes, and all you a good now Paul's their person just described the all-star especially at waffle house. Okay, you WANNA, sleep first of all who eat breakfast at home, wit waffles and make toast to raise until said that you notice only stuff that happened a restaurant. So, you know you got to all star special and you sat appearance on to act like a high on. That's what I'm saying is fraudulent. I'M GONNA. Tell the truth, I'm GONNA. Do you mind so you know I think I do that. This is a you know. Another issue that I'm having with the world is people are getting mad because celebrities are not speaking out, you know police brutality inequality now from one angle I do give people feel like you should be using your platform to combat that speak out as a black person, a person of color Oliver's the right. But, here's the thing. I never see a rule book bit safe for public figure to speak on these things. These people are not political. You know people. These people are not in politics. So why do y'all get mad? Because your favorite youtubers not speaking out on this your favorite comedian, your favorite, you know tour team member is not accurate time about inequality police brutality. Now, of course it was you know some of these artists who use what would black folks stuff that they go through a music in craft? I feel like a limb, cases they. But at the same time I still don't feel I just that you have to I, don't feel that they have you know in you know. Yachting bullied simone so bad to the point. She started protests in Dizzy. Bank shot canceling him I WANNA. Save my take on. Cancel Culture for later date so too much time on net, but. I just feel like we're in a rules. Does it say a celebrity has to do that doesn't opinion you know, but it is windy, but I understand your frustration with that, too, and the next thing is. I don't like how y'all learn a new word in a y'all drive ground last year was toxic in some ways. I can't be building, but I know this year y'all about the drive through disgusting out I am disgusted. This is disgusting. Shut up, does the? Maguire yod dictionary for Christmas birthday. 'cause I'm sick. It is for Joan Tate's coming up. I'M GONNA get ya a dictionary glimpse. It is like I don't know the meaning of words. I learned new words Overdo it, and I hate it I'm tired of it. ZIGA! So I'm dictionary. does final untitled. Last they had wanted to talk about is. Might take on Trina there were. If you know me, you know me. Insurer had a twitter beef. WanNa be. We just went back and forth to the some years ago, and it was funny, not still make jokes about it today. A whenever this stuff happened with Trina. Everybody was tagging. I'm laughing because unlike y'all not this lady in red. This is a funny beat Kyle of. Kaya, really the lineup, but I think she did like but GonNa do, but during this funny to me I don't you know if I sleep, train, our product but anyway so basically. For those that don't know Trina made a comment about the tastes, and was saying that she tired of these animals in the streets, and all this stuff y'all dated call train our white supremacists. A. Week like y'all really tall white supremacist, and she basically was saying she was talking about the people that was. At the protest now see came back and said that. She didn't mean the protesters. She meant the people who was just riding and destroying stuff in black communities for no reason. Do I believe a personally year only because I feel I've been in situations. Where admit something one way? And it came out totally different than because again I was example of most in the best of all radio show, so most got the best of her, and she was just. You know lashing out, but I don't think she meant the animals as protests she was talking about. You know people ride. Air By been canceled premises. They put videos her time behind. She says she didn't claim black folks. I she says she's Afro Latina, says Gee ain't Afro Latino. She niggle in Nigeria and I'm like okay. Out I was dead personally I was I was weak, but it's at. This is the thing. This is Kinda why in example of what I said early celebrities is just not the lane. People don't know who needs to hit his. Joe Voices not for Bain now. We all have voices long will be. People have voices for this third, but certain people aren't. Supposed to be just NACHO laying that society so. Might take on the Queen Miami. Also she say is that you know, she says the amount of anger got the best of national drag for also what I've noticed they just before the state again you know I don't know his series. We got central things, but we got under other ones in other gyms within. This is one of when people start to get on and brise. Love is going to. To be resolved without cast if you go people gonNA, try are being strategically placed turned down. That's one, but also when you mess up or some bad people go fi stuff to the internet is a dangerous thing. Which I on watch job sending watch out saying some people like Oh will get famous. I don't care you while put yourself through. Unnecessary stirs, say just deleted. Make luminous idea because. He says it's is is is hectic. You know our so much. From college students you know first and foremost it will happen. You know somebody playing dirty in the probably happened somebody. Close to you again. Yeah I, freshman sometimes. I do but the rest of your life. I can tell you. It was a group that hung out with when I have. Many people walk my first year I. Don't think none of them graduated. Announcing with them every day, and it was a whole house of people's like five and none of them graduate so some of them people. You not always be some of the people that you are closely. We'll play dirty. They might do some nests snake. snaky sneaky anytime we can trademark. They knock remodel work, so they might do. Listen naked to you in you know. is brought here. You see that a lot to election season especially in the colleges with elections because. That's the time where people will do whatever it takes to get that position whether a again released. Some you said know. Oh, I see that. Especially at the issue, boy in five, the pull up your grades, they'll make your grades. Come up with that. You don't have the GPA. It happened to many people. Vale with us what they do. They're bring up a sex tape. Union had I don't know where they'd be fine. They'd be final so. It can be very dirty game. now and again people may set you up now. As far as we talked about earlier, which was police brutality according to Mike Dot com from the earliest. Assist Joseph more that he said that some mornings as he drinks his coffee bushes, t his brain went voluntarily flashed image of Philander Casteel, being shot in his family or George floor with the Neil his neck. He's here, remember the protests fourth-floor HVAC students to near Pilgrim in Messiah. Messiah were taste for breaking curfew while another vehicle nearby with white occupants remain unaffected. He said he watch disturbing video Ottawa through right before bed so as stuff like that. Unfortunately we do live the sided with racism here as strong principality you know is not just a person it's. It's a whole patty you know, but that again s the story for another day to IV. You're all day with that, but the point that I'm making is. You, know there are ways to fight it. You know if you deal with police brutality WANNA stand up off seen a lot of college campus starting foundations. You know there's ways to ten rallies. I say be saved on go by yourself. groups of people you know maybe even create like a flyer for like a are we going? organizations on college campuses I was in one school. Just star stuff new stuff like that around community volunteer places on always. Off Everything new study. Getting more information for people you know from people, even just research because a Lotta Times I learned. People are missing phone. So you know the worst way to get informed, you know the best way to beat. Misinformation is to get actual information to get informed yourself I so in the remarks. Again IAGO six or seven do not be deceived can be mocked memories when he sows. Whatever you put out comeback, you call a Carmen Colorado, but this is the repressive for and I. Feel like you know even if you don't come back to you. How you did is come back in some way and even noticed people think is getting away with this racism and things. It seemed like but I promise you know people not getting away with it, and they're not going to get away with them. If they get away with it right now, so hopefully annoys Kinda hard especially time. Did they give you some peace about it? And you know this all. We can do with that all right? In with the question of challenge, have you ever played dirty before in? So, what did you do and tell me away now? Looking back at how you could have handled it differently our also. Impact, but it was funny. It was funny with good time all right so tony next time for track four, and as my first feature other mixed day. bumbling. Keep like nick.

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E35: Sports News Lobby

Unofficial Partner Podcast

38:32 min | 1 year ago

E35: Sports News Lobby

"Hi It's Richard Gillis welcome to unofficial partner this week. We talked to two of the most influential Sports News Journalists Working Today Martin Ziegler is chief Sports Sports Reporter of the times and Sunday Times. Newspapers Martha Kellner has recently moved from a similar role at the Guardians. Become sports correspondent of Sky News. What is the heart of sports news finding something dodgy by somebody new eldest bowl? The conversation took place at the Royal Thames Yacht Club in Knightsbridge just just before the annual sports news lobby Christmas drink and you can hear the bomb and doing stuff in the background at times. June recording so apologies for that. And if you enjoy the podcast don't forget to rate us on our Chins and subscribe to the unofficial partner newsletter via the site. His podcast right. We are at somewhere. Porsche Multi Ziegler toes knows where we are well. The Royal Thames Yacht Club in Knightsbridge. And why are we here so we are here because this is the venue new for the annual sports news lobby Christmas drinks and this has been our chosen venue for the last ten years. I think we've got Martha Carolina. Uh from Sky News. You're looking at your your sports correspondent. Skynews yes I have been for about last year now and and you know we followed your career closely. The male is this is all on wikipedia and then the Guardian chief sports reporter. Yes yes so made the move from newspapers. T. TV which has been something of a talent questions Why should say that? I sent you a piece of paper with my questions in advance by email Martin sports news lately. This is one of my favorite. Probably my favorite Christmas. I drink of the year but that is that. There's a long list of Christmas drinks. But what is a sport. So it's just all informal will grouping of people who work in journalists who work in sports news which is when you say sports news. I think that tends to be about the the business of the finance. The politics roller than whose strain they're growing Saturday afternoon. So it's a yeah. Yeah so that's Lots of different people coming. I suppose make up the sports lobby. News lobby is not really a formal thing and it was the brainchild of David Bond back and I think it was about two thousand four. He thought we should. I think he was at the Telegraph at the time. What what we should we should do is invite somebody interesting from the world of sport? Take them out for off-the-record boozy dinner and that's what happened. I think Richie Cable Boone. Sportsman's at the time we went out at a at a very very good Dana I was it was it was a lunch type thing then. No it wasn't evening the evening giving meal And Yeah I was. I got the late the last train back to leads and in so which one in the morning I thought we derived lead station. Good out the train and suddenly the whistle win and the train set off and I was in doncaster. Very expensive taxi ride back to what was there isn't I'm. I'm disappointed that there isn't a sort of you. Know a founding tablet of rules and regulations to the sports news is so suddenly appeared and as has then been there ever since so we should explain that every journalist come along when they invite guests. That's what yeah so ten years ago Charlie. Early sale that the famous X. podcast veteran. Yes exactly has He came the idea of having these new Christmas drinks. East journalists invites one or two guests from from the world of sport and and actually last taken off and we don't really have that many dinners these days that the focus focus is much more than these drinks. And there's I think something like thirty five journalists could potentially come and invite a- At least one guest and it's quite. It's quite high in Crab Martha who've you brought who've you invited I've actually had some last minute. Consolations so no fingers has pointed but the individuals from British cycling and that otherwise detained. There's obviously going with recycling at the moment but I always find find it really useful comes these events because it's such a good mix of people from the software sports news world. You got price offices. But then they usually he bring along the chief exact from from their organization Something like that and it's always good conversations because everyone has a lot of common ground at these events good for soft triggering ideas stories from a journalistic point of view. I think from from the point of view of the guests. It's probably probably good to sometimes faces to names. You know they make a phone call out of the blue to run a line pass them story that someone's writing about that. They may never have actually met this person before. Say I think it's mutually beneficial for both sides. I think and when it comes to I was like the line in the email that goes around around from Zeke's about keep press offices to a minimum precipices as we know at. That probably wasn't as much of a problem ten years ago but now for for every organization you might have two or three sometimes five or six press officers. Say It's an an important point to make. I think your said quite often get press offices bringing up and say can I come to the drinks. I'm not I don't because each individual journalist has one or two guests so I I it puts me the card a difficult position because I don't they want to say I cannot say yes because I invite everybody. He wants to kill him so I I what I normally do is suggested. We'll have you tried such and such person they've not invited anybody anybody yet so That normally works and may most people who are desperate to come and quite a few. Yeah they do come. Yeah is is it. Do you get lobbied. Does the lobby get lobbied. Yeah absolutely yeah And not just officers. I think sports marketing people marketing agencies of obviously they for them it's in a dull signs and the and there is some of the people might be able to speak to not just the journalists as well as people within spoiled. Yeah Yeah and was was the one of the two thousand. Twelve of 'em coming in appearing there was a moment where well two questions I guess. One is is about the numbers of guests because around running to the Olympics. The definition of what sports news was became sprawl order for awhile did it you think or was it just that people you newspapers started to have Olympic correspondence and imagining that and I think that was definitely more of an interest in sport that time obviously because of the way the London. Twenty twelve obviously just a sporting event. It was a huge cultural and social in new story as well so I think people generally took on correspondent specifically for Olympics job to work alongside light sauce the regular sports news correspondents as well so I suspect that's why I got busy at that point mountain public. I think that is exactly what happened And because there was the whole of the sports news was focused around the London Olympics. And you had all those people Seb Coe and and Pulled Dighton based in London. They they provided this central focus really for for many of the guests it would come and actually then attracted a lot of actual Olympians people who actually road all did stuff offer so I think actually in twenty twelve we had four or five gold medallist think People Andrew Triggs Pixel g came a couple of others. They reasonably easy to pick out as well in a room of journalists on the Olympia. He can he had the okay. That's one I'm viable NYDIA. Yeah Sports News. Let's just talk about that. Then as a thing Martha what how. How does skynews defines sports news? You got an audience here of this. Passage is the sports business and a bit of it falls under sports news. I guess but how to sky go about tackling tackling this. Yeah I think I sometimes have to explain this quite a lot because people often think when you sat. I'm a sports correspondent for Sky News. And they think of Sky Sports News naturally naturally but I'm doing sport for a news audience so sport for people who aren't necessarily interested in sport which is a S- sometimes problematic because I used to do spor obviously for the for the papers snail mail and the Guardian and the stories that would make for the daily mile in the very different from the stories that the Sky News would take in a way. The bar is set slightly higher because they're not interested in those incremental lamented developments in stories. They're more interested in those lundmark events so I would for instance from a sports perspective I would cover things like an Olympic pick games a football world cup. I was out in Japan for the latter stages of the rugby world. Cup has while but then they're interested in the big soul of the big stories around the around sort of doping financial corruption. The things like the very interested in the Richard Freeman trial. The moment the cycling trial and those are the sort of events that they're interested in things like the rule full to challenge from the from the athletes at the moment. That's going on against the and they're certainly interested in following gene developments with that story. So so yes. It's bringing sport to a an audience. That doesn't necessarily sit there and watch football. Pull much on a Saturday afternoon so on that last one then I mean it's just it's interesting that sort of news agenda and how that's defined because that law the rule forty feels feels like a bit marginal in terms of just a brutal gone US audience. That would be. Yeah I think it's the idea. People can relate to big big name Olympians and so they see someone like Adam Jimmy Lee who's obviously been the figurehead of this challenge. This this will change and they then see the Bush Olympic Association and they think while this brave thing for the athletes to do to take home the organization which governs who goes to an Olympics. And who doesn't go so I think people can get invested in that story. An and the human interest stories were interesting. They're interested in people pull things that have done particularly well. Rosa over the past year of being the stories about Nike. Not necessarily even just the Alberto Salazar story stories although people do tend to be interested in that but the story about about Nike and whether they do actually take their responsibilities towards awards particularly women athlete seriously. I don't whether you full out the story. About the the athletes in America and the having their payments stopped. It's when they announced Nike that pregnant and then Jo Pavey then came out and said the same thing happened to her. First one chapter son then her daughter. The Nike stopped their payments. And I think stories that really get people outraged in a way the entrust them and so those are the sorts stories. That Sky News are interested in and is it's interesting Kosovo Nike. If you then turn it to odds sort of the business of sports they are always Hel held up as all these advertisers marketers. And you've got these two stories running in parallel and they all really and they are brilliant marketeers if we look at what they've done with with with Serena Williams and this idea if I think the slogan that they used was dream crazier or dream big. Forgive me I don't quite know the exact the exact term but they they basically basically traded off the fact that she was coming back after having her baby. But they see Serena Williams they can afford to trade off that because she's an international star who transcends dunst tennis but we're then talking about the responsibility that they have to the athletes who don't make as much money as a Serena Williams and say it has been interesting to see that and you can't deny Nikea hugely successful now own Nike trainers in a Nike leggings. But I am starting to think more about whether they take their social responsibilities clearly-in alien whether we need to look at the money that we're giving certain companies who you're wearing vans these protests yes protest Eh. Yeah so what was the times view of sports news. Is it similar or you. Are you broader narrower. Branding newspapers tend to be broader Because we can we can write a two hundred would story if it's not that interesting Whereas full of Sky News go to be break through the glass last season and pays by the election or Brexit? Or whatever and he's been really really good sports story so yeah for us. We probably have a much broader re-met I mean they are. They're very interested in the sports finances. Part of things and especially they'd really like is anything dodgy tried on by anybody in SPL. That's that's that's that is the heart of sports news finding something dodgy by somebody who spoke what's being I had a question written down about the the the way in which business is portrayed in particular rightsholders I I've always found interesting how so the ECB the FAA the premier league as she left so the permanently but those those traditional RFU there are two types of stories that get attached to one is the the Hapless Amateurs Blazers idiots should professionalize. And then there's the other type of story. Is there squeezing money out of the game over commercialized specialize in there. It's almost like they're bankers in the whole thing's that bad guys. It's quite difficult to to work out the the coverage veers from one to the the other. Do you sense that. Is that something you are not saying about you personally. Oversee you're right seamless. Do you sense that. There is a the the the role of those governing bodies sometimes. Quite polarized thing if you bought for governing body he have to accept that you are never. You're never gonNA GONNA get it right because in the eyes of the world yes you either. Rs Off Hapless Blazer or your money grabbing in greedy person. He's putting finances at the top of your list. The priorities because you had someone like Adam crozier was going back the long time and you had you know. He was the SARCI appetizing guy and it felt like the FAA was going too far towards a commercial commercial sort of agenda. And then you you know you. Sometimes you swing malting Glenn is is had the same sort of treatment. He's the Pepsi guys. That's that's why why he's framed in that way. And then you've got the assay. The blaze is quite peculiar one. I don't know how you as you say. There might not be a an easy answer to the question. If there is a question of what is not because you can be. Both you can actually be both can be a hapless blazer and still and there'll be quite Quite good at the finances which Martin plenty was dated a very big international TV deal which security the FAA's finances but the hand even sort of put his foot in his mouth on a few occasions. The I remember talking about that they can not allowed to wear the Star of David. On your shirt furor. He said when actually forgetting Israel do of this off David on that show and And then the the whole any aluko shambles. That was a disaster and he played his poem that shambles for show. I go along with that. I think we might miss the days of multi Glenn Gaffes. Perhaps but I think you do have to also respect and I think people did the the the financial side of what he did to a great extent and I think I think we do usually give if a certain amount of praise where and actually the the tone of the coverage particularly may maybe not specifically for the FA but definitely for the way. The England team is be managed media managed over the last sort of year eighteen months particular. Gareth Southgate as being enormously asleep positive to be honest the the way they dealt with the the racism I Montenegro. Recently I think people gave them Qudos for the way they came out. Particularly great o'clock came out and he said we've got to remember. This is still a problem home in English stadiums to avoid being seen as xenophobe. Can I think I think the coverage the tenor of the coverage of the Clinton campaign in in Russia was positive in a lot of that was due to letting the media in which I think could not happen so much with England before but I think he's tougher for chief execs and FA chairman to get dot right because they are in the spotlight and our Johnny's to hold power to account not sound too trite. And so they are sometimes going to have to cut the flack as it were the racism things interesting using and Raheem Sterling and interesting figure in this. This whole thing is in. What what what's the sort of Because you've got him making he using using something like Players Tribune as a platform effectively bypassing generalists what. What's the game we've access at the moment? How would you is that something something that you is just going away and all the other they gonna go and have their own media platforms the big players and just chow shower over the top of you or is it something that you think they'll come back? When did they want to engage with the August? The question. Well I think they will engage if they think it's worth I mean so starting as he has done some I mean he did An Entry Henry went to the Times into yearly the season. So so I mean I suppose immediate purposes. He can use instagram all. She has done very successfully a- as be seen with the when he was abused at Chelsea about a year ago. I'm his instagram posts. There was perhaps one of the most important developments in terms of the whole racism in English football issues That came out so I suppose newspapers deepest. TV will they they will. They will be used by players when they think it's suits their purpose degree of that. Yeah I do agree. I think the issue uh of access has changed over. I wasn't around in the sports news world ten years ago but I think they used to be way more access. You know you hear people talking about twenty thirty years ago being able to walk up to a training ground and just you know. Stick the dictaphone across the barrier. I mean the idea of doing that is completely clearly unfathomable these days and even into the press conference says you have to get on a list and then you have to provide your security tells a not salting so that sort of access. It doesn't happen anymore but I think that definitely is still a role for mainstream media players and using that platform. I I think a lot of a lot of players of used things you know things like players tripping paps because they have the trust in the way the story will be told. I think that's I think that's confused. View that they have. I think I raised if regime sterling excite down with a football reporter and told them his his story from from top to bottom. That wouldn't be respectfully untruthfully truthfully told by think the relationship. Between spokesman particularly footballers over the past ten years deteriorates deteriorates little bit so that. There's this breakdown in trust but I think that that is through restriction of of access sometimes because you have this big void that has to be filching ten twelve sixteen pages a day an obviously now internet as well and if you're not getting access to to play his you'll then reaching reaching for stories in a way. Yeah I mean I I should. I actually don't think it has changed quite as much as people think because I I think he's always been fairly difficult go. I mean my all sports into the pest association I used to be sports editor of the sun and the mirror in the in the late eighties nearly ninety S. He was saying we. You is not as they had access agents at that time players weren't paid very much so their agents would ring up and say oh. Do you want an interview with whoever it is John Bonds owns. It will cost you two grand but that that doesn't happen anymore but that's what happened at the time because they they they. I needed that Mo- that extra income and that was one way of supplementing that but I'm and it's not not just football but I mean I think how it has changed perhaps is is in other sports more For example Rugby Union. So I I remember after the nine hundred lines to I went to John. Bentley's I match back. In Britain. He'd been ninety seven ninety eight. He was the star of the living reliance ninety seven nine seven Toyota. I so I went to his first match back in back in the UK playing rugby league for Halifax and but the idea of speaking to him about not after the match I I was looking around into a covered football matches but not covered the league. Max and I just said I also is that local. The local club official whereas John Bentley amenable that is in the ball. Go and drink with him so yeah uh clearly in reunion. That wouldn't happen anymore but a lot of it's Don's responses now so obviously the end of a newspaper article only the only incident. You'll get a little sponsors the Baltimore they'll be wearing a branded. It'll be a branded image. Whether wearing whatever is certain sportswear company that's the way the access happens quite a lot to the top top level athletes. I want to talk about the Hardy Perennial Eranio stories now. We got one coming up with you the sports personality of the year. And it's it gets cut. You have to cover every year. What do you you do about that? How can you come up at eight? You enjoy that story or is it something. I'll go here. You come again. I don't really enjoy it. I mean I quite interested as looking at analyzing the voting and that sort of things about it because they've put the shortlist out. Today is I've written about it today in the back actually have a number of people. Voting has declined in the last six or seven years. Incredibly really so when I twenty twelve is vintage year because the Olympics by Antoni Thirteen wiggins in in two thousand twelve over and and dementia thirteen. They both got more more than four hundred thousand votes and the last on the BBC published voting figures in two thousand seventeen That was the entire in that as a cumulative total of all the vote so the voting is definitely dropped off for some reason what. I'm not sure why over over a few years over a longer term trend or is that something that you I think it's I think it has. I mean in the days of the you know when any filled in your coupon in the Radio Times today and I think You had hundreds of Mumbai. She may be had the same number of people. But I don't know why but uh I think it has lost some of its luster in terms of being sort of a audience participation event. Yeah the reason the reason why. I'm not sure an moth Adieu cover being sky. I have the luxury of not offering sports personality. I think I used to cover it when I was a paper. I have to say it's a little bit of a guilty pleasure for me. I think it's something. A lot of people love to hate sports sports personality. Da but I quite like watching it. Because I'm a sucker for those montages of the great sporting moments and he's often a reminder. Your forgot that happened me. I forgot we will look cricket well cope but yeah I enjoy watching it and I'll be interested to see what happens this year. I think Ben Stokes must be the overwhelming favourite But yeah I enjoy watching it. I remember the biggest sports personality story was that year when they had no women on the short list. I think the two thousand and then live on awesome thing. Yes there is often a new story that comes out of it. I think antimony was presented with a broken trophy one year and the voting figures are always interesting and on a more serious point infuse. Some people say you know I think I think in the past. He's Sterling Farris. said that they think it might have something to do with the way that black athletes viewed in the country. They're solve lack of success in in sports personality but Yeah I I find it interesting. Entrusting more from sports fan point of view sports show enjoyed Kotila which I do like got into it and I think as an event is eh quite good because you do have lots of people there he can hopefully talk to afterwards Where or is it this year abidine as long long way to go to the granite city mother? We mentioned this at the beginning but you obviously have migrated from papers to focus. What was that like? What's that what have you found good and bad surprise surprisingly the difficult? I think I was quite naive about the change in in moving in TV TV. Not only the way you gather and tell stories base. Is it just that feeling of doing live. TV's incredibly stressful. I'm sure a lot people listening. Donate you know when you when when you're just staring down the barrel of the camera and you know you've got to make sure you get you. Tell the story very succinctly as well I think is a challenge because you know in the paper she might have eight hundred words for TV. You might have a minute and a half in which to tell the story and I think getting all the Salient Fox across in that short period of time is being quite lesson. I'm but I'm really enjoying it. It's a totally different challenge. Which is nice to have have? I'm learning so much and I actually like being part of a team. Generally you're working with a producer. I'm looking to have my own specialist. It's producer and and then different cameramen from dates day on different stories and I liked that feeling of teamwork which sometimes you don't get even though you become incredibly the class with your colleagues on different papers you don't quite have that collegiate sense that you do in TV of all been invested in this story. It was there anyone that you looked at before you made the move as you're making the move that you thought. Oh yeah okay. I want to copy her or him or the I think the Natural Person Was Paul Calcio because obviously heat heat moberly scholley. Her is awesome awesome. Yeah exactly two. I'm I'm Paul. It obviously from papers and then moved in TV in an Estonian ferry successfully did a really good job. Sports correspondent then moved health correspondent and he's now business correspondent careers decline over a period of time. Now he's gone from you. Know he was in the sports news now is slid slid away to this. These side waters. Exactly exactly yes he solved. I did shots him a little bit before I took it and he said you know is is massively different an challenge. It's very exciting. and An and it has been it's been tough and still is toughening still still learning a lot but now regrets yet. I'm GONNA FINISH OFF. What the stories that you've enjoyed particularly enjoyed over the last? Let's say year. Yeah two years whatever what what sticks in the Mind Marty. What's story that you have covered and thought like there's there's quite a bit too that you I'm really fascinated by the CASTA semenya case and over the last year and the this whole approach of I know it's not the same story but sort of in some ways connected that the whole transgender athletes in sports? In how you deal with this really really difficult and complicated situations a of of women who were born and raised as girls and been treated gals over life and then suddenly somebody in sport tells them that they can't be be race as a as a as a woman without taking drugs and that's one aspect and then the whole thing about Can can men transition to women and compete equally with women or is that. Is that very unfair I. I think that's really really interesting. Debate the one. That's going to keep going on. What is the response from times? Readers is to that story to the to the transgender story. The I think think I would say ninety. Five percent of readers. Think it's unfair on on women and take the take. The sort of feminist side of the argument is always have done throughout the is. I actually agree with Maltin. I'm I'm fascinated by the stories around athletes with differences in sexual development as custom menus and as multiple saying the distinct difference between that and the transgender athletes. And I think that's something that I really struggle with. Reading the tend not to try not to read below below the align but the amount of people who come flay caster Semenya and DSP athletes with transgender athletes and their two two very different stories but obviously very linked in the outcome of certain legal cases around athletes with DAS. They may impact the ability of transgender athletes to transgender women mean to compete in women's sport an elite level as well so I'm I'm fascinated to find out how that develops and whether we get any transgender women competing at the Tokyo. Okay twenty two thousand Olympics and you think that's going to be the you know that's going to be one of the storylines presumably getting into Tokyo is definitely one of the talking points it it depends if if any of the the transgender women who are on the brink of qualification managed to get that there's a New Zealand weightlift Cold Laurel Habat Abbott. But she's looking like she may not not make it. She's got to do quite well in. A couple of the qualification competitions. There's a Brazilian volleyball. Playa Haya Tiffany Abreu and gained. She she may not make the team and they may not make the Olympics. So I think if if anyone does my will definitely be a hot talk pick and I think definitely the the Swiss court challenge of some annual be will watch closely and start start story. I'm interested often participating team team sky as it was now team in the ongoing story around that and and Dr Freeman Tribunal. It really is the story that keeps on giving. It's obvious question is sky's relationship to got story And so as if you're covered I will become a lot easier to tell that story now that they're not connected. It wasn't something necessarily we shied away from from you know. We have to tell the story of team sky and and the Jiffy bargain and not side of things but I think now. It's it's a lot less commercially sensitive senstive nowadays team in your gym class name connected to it and not sky. Matt Slater and Chris Room talking of people separated. That's they are absolutely. I saw them together. Once I think just absolutely identical right news of abuse of news obviously happens innately unpredictable. But what does the next year hold. You obviously got an Olympics coming up but what else is on your agenda more big moments for you. Well you're a twenty twenty riches ineffective sort of Home Championship for for England to these three group games definitely at Wembley and based semifinals and the final. Oh that's A. That's a big thing. I I love Olympic Year because everything is focused around the Olympics. The build up to it. And there's there's L- lots of stories around there and it's one of those things this Olympic athletes or fade away. Don't they between the in between every four years and they come back into swear I think is I'm really looking to take. Yeah I have to say having been out in entail very briefly for the World Cup. I don't think we're going to get those organizational problems of real. You know a bullet through the roof of the equestrian center in the first day media pulses also caught in crossfire. I don't think we're going to get those stories handed on a plate so as I'm sure it will be fascinating. The rule faulty stories. I I was talking about is an opportunity really to celebrate those athletes that do get forgotten forgotten about four years. I'll also be interested to see the amount of medals that we win. And if and if that changes the tone of the coverage because I think for so long we've been writing this wave having two thousand thousand night two thousand twelve and then in two thousand sixteen even surpassing the medal total for two thousand twelve. I think that's unlikely to happen in Tokyo. I don't think we will. Oh but it'll be interesting to see whether those fingers pointed at you all really if if the general public accepts it for boy is and appreciates shape those those golden moments because we need all those metal is the question. Why it's interesting? You say that one of the question about the role role of the medal table and our position in it. And how are we not a mature enough country to not worry about that is that isn't that what Third World dictator is worry about those questions. But I think he's been quite nice has an. It's so high poem on the Medal Table But if you actually ask them out on the street how many of those gold medalists names they remember from ray all how many of those they remember the moments in the things that have a real effect so the hockey. The women's is hockey gold. I think sticks in of memories from two thousand sixteen obviously CPA Saturday from two thousand twelve and those those real William Komo even like the Fiji Sevens in Rio. Those are the things that stay with. Not necessarily this massive roll call of of gold silver bronze battles. And I'll if I'm not going to ask the legacy question so you're okay you're safe. They worry that wearing well. Listen thank you very much time. We are now as people can hear in the background. The Sports News Lobby. Christmas drinks is about to stop. So we'll get going. But in the meantime Maltin Martha. Thanks very much thanks mm-hmm.

Olympics chief Sports Sports Reporter Maltin Martha Nike Sky News Sky News Martin Ziegler FAA David Bond England Guardians reporter football Royal Thames Yacht Club Tokyo Sky Sports News John Bentley Serena Williams
Coronavirus hits the global supply chain, the demise of at-home-trading and updates on the Saudi infiltration of Twitter

Pivot

58:40 min | 9 months ago

Coronavirus hits the global supply chain, the demise of at-home-trading and updates on the Saudi infiltration of Twitter

"Is Your Business as secure as it could be. It's not if you're still running windows. Seven support ended for windows seven on January fourteenth. Get modern windows. Ten pro devices with Intel core an Intel core processors and the latest version of Microsoft Office. You can boost productivity cut management time and cost and make your business more secure learn more from Microsoft's partner connection at connection dot com slash. Make the shift. Hi everyone this is pivot from the VOX media podcast network. I'm Cara Swisher Galloway Care. How are you feeling I feel good? This is especially important that we both get flu shots. If you got your flu shot this year of course I get them like in like may whenever I come out. I am first in line first. Flu Shot that said. I got very sick this this winter. with the flu And so which was interesting But I do I take care of myself. I consider wearing masks but then I don't 'cause my brother's doctors said they're useless and And and everything else. But we're GONNA go to the big story because it's affecting the stock market right now Corona virus is now really affecting the global supply chain. It's now being possibly moved into pandemic There are cases of CORONA VIRUS IN ITALY. The first outbreak in the EU and later GonNa have an expert coming in for Friends of to explain to US everything we need to know but it is having a very big impact on on on stock especially tex stocks especially because of the global supply chain and and and markets and people moving around so. Give any thoughts on this. It's it's interesting just the way you framed into the opening of the show and I think it's indicative of where where we've kind of come as a society and that as he said so this the virus looks like it might be a pandemic. The number of cases reported outside the. Us has doubled in the last four days. Which is obviously scary stat. And then the second thing you said is that it's having an impact on the markets and it strikes me I I heard something funny. Someone said you know the worst thing they could happen or the worst thing that might happen. If this if the current ivars turned into a pandemic and wiped out the species is that it might affect the economy so we should be really scared and that is why we everything is accent. Why and the why to. Everything is what's going to happen to the markets and the economy. And I. I don't know if you've noticed this tanger- maybe I was just so clueless when I when I was younger. Man Much less a Kid. We didn't seem as obsess. We didn't immediately attach. We would have gone to a special interest stories around a you know a young woman flying home to take care of her grandmother's something like that. We would have talked more about the human tall and it strikes me as we've gone full. Contact capitalists when everything that the analysis around everything is a function of what's going to happen in my 401k. Today that's right. Yeah that's a really good point. That is an excellent point but I mean it's really hard not to not to focus on that because the economy has been going great gangbusters especially pushed by tech companies I think is Great. Engine of this And here we have this virus that you know. The analog tends to to overwhelm the digital in seconds. Really without without a problem and I do I agree with you. There are. It's a it's a it's a more human story But at the same time it does have global implications especially around this global supply chain especially because our economies are so based on On on the movement of people and goods across the world now interrelated interrelated way. Yeah it'll be very interesting to see what happens around policies around how you can restrict people's try an travel individual freedoms how people I mean. I said I asked you if you got a flu. Shot because what I was going to say as I read over the weekend. The middle of sounds. Everyone should get a flu shot because we need to what they don't want the healthcare system being overwhelmed with people who have the traditional flew who think they have something else and so it's especially important. I'm I'm someone who doesn't I never. I didn't go to the doctors a kid. I don't get flu shots but anyways I do think getting a flu. Shot seems especially important Right now so you don't get confused or panicked because it definitely feels as if there's two things here there's a virus itself then there's the impression of the perception or Unfortunately the the the panic and the fear that might cause it starts to it starts to shape Human Behavior Anyway. One of the things that you talked about though is early on. I remember that you thought was over over. Hyped you think is over hyped now the the combination. Cara but I'm saying what are you what are you? What are you imagine now is going to happen? So it's just You know dangerous with someone with no medical as I'm learning with no absolutely no medical training to make estimate what you found traditionally in the past and is that these things tend to be more hype than horror but then just as we thought and unfortunately we institutions matter and their credibility matters. And what you have now is. People aren't trusting information coming out of China and then when you hear that South Korea and Italy are starting report cases. And then you know the first every there's like this drip drip drip of scary news. First Case Report Enough Ghanistan. I mean this thing is starting and it makes for great media because it is sort of this Hollywood like monster roaming the earth. So the honest answer is I'm not going to last thing I want to do is try and slow. Slow talk this thing and in any way reduce people's People's precautions but typically if you look over the course of these Outbreaks they've Talking about the economy that he's being buying a buying opportunity supposedly the market. We'd record on Monday. The markets CL- Opening opening down nine hundred points today. the honest answer is. I don't know and I'm looking forward to hearing what our guest has to say. Absolutely right next thing Bernie Sanders. Winning big in the Nevada caucuses. We've talked a lot about politics last episode or more tech this time but again. It looks like Speaking of that he's marching right towards the nomination which I think has got everybody liked mentally worried I thought James Carville was going to have an aneurism Chris Matthews Barest himself. All over your net and with the comparisons through the fall of France during the Nazi era which was disturbing if it wasn't so demented. That's a little much but from a business perspective. Is this like what do you imagine the impact will be from you know? I don't even know the I was thinking of common. What is burning thing about big tech Obviously he thinks they're too big. That's all I pretty much have gotten from him but and same thing with media. How do you look at this sort of? Are You surprised by it? I think everybody was surprised by I. Don't know if you're you're you're I think you're a better political I do. I was shocked at the scale of the win. Because USUALLY MSNBC breakdown and says okay college gods versus Non College grads. And it didn't matter which cohort. He won them all he literally. I think other than moderates over the age of sixty five who had stayed. Who had shirt saying I hate Bernie Sanders like he he? He just barely lost AGroup other than that. He won he absolutely dominated. And he's had to his credit and I'm trying to rethink my thinking as opposed to just becoming in transit entering my bubbling anger in anger. He has had the best line of the entire election in the NATTA. Said we have socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for everybody else. I thought that perfectly summarized his his movement what was interesting is on Friday markets. There's a lot of reports that the market the stock market goes higher because the markets are gonNA assume that trump's GONNA win and trump's GonNa do whatever's required even if it's borrowing against our kids' future to try and artificially pumped the markets You're right. Everyone is freaking out at the entire narrative is that okay. We have a nation that elects a hundred senators. We have decided over the course of our history to elect one socialist which reflects poorly or is a negative for linking indicator on his ability to win at the election will be couched as a socialist versus a capitalist but to his credit and to give him his win he does seem to have ignited a great deal of passion among his cohort. And the other thing I wanted to get your sense. I'm wondering have I just missed? The boat here is this. The miss is this. Is this a pivot to a different mentality? Different View on the government's role and he is that sparking igniting. Something I actually don't think so. I think this is a disaster. But I WANNA take pause and say pastor I have. I've thought a lot about this is interesting. One of my sons was Which I talked to the people like deduct my young people Was like Oh people. Just like the on twitter People just like angry old men yelling at people about how everything sucks trump whether it's trump or sanders people like this sort of. I think they're both speaking. And I think on Gear Garda's had really interesting take even though you know. He goes to billionaire. Suck sideline all the time But I think he had a very good point. Is that these these middle parts whether it was the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. There was this sort of standing class. That sort of just assumes that they know best and there's these other people are like just a second like the way you all been conducting. Things hasn't been good for a lot of people and I do think whether you're on the Republican side or Bernie Sanders and a lot of people who support Bernie Sanders then went to trump which is interesting Seemed to like this message of the G. The fixes in. I think it has to do with big tech and big media and big everything that there's a fixes in for the elite versus you and and I think that I think this is a bigger part. I think it will have implications from a corporate point of view. trump chooses to attack the deep state. Bernie Sanders is attacking the deep corporate right. That this is a and it's the same thing it's the same thing in people's minds is that like I everything's better. I don't feel better. I don't I'm not better You know whether it's my housing isn't as good as it was or whatever. Healthcare is not as good as it was you know and frustration and I think it does and I think it does exemplify that this sort of love of and I think tech is just the latest industry to be that like Or Tech and media really. Put them together People are tired and I do think there's a there's a there's a hopefulness it's like we gotta change things and I don't think that's I don't think they're that they're different. Of Course Bernie. Sanders is decent. Human being and trump is not in that regard but But I think it's this concept of things are not right and you know it and I think I don't think it's fear mongering I think it's actually sort of saying it like it is and I think people tend to like it. Imp- implications on on big tech purely from a product momentum strategy elections. Really are the most interesting. If you ever really want understand marketing you need to get involved election because you have to products or multiple products. They have one day where everyone gets to buy. And whoever gets to one percent wins everything and everyone else goes out of business. I mean it is just full body contact of marketing and right now. We're in a situation where he has so much momentum the only firewall the only thing in between Senator Sanders in the nomination is Super Tuesday and strategically. If these guys were run by boards that had fiduciaries that could sit the CEO? Down every once in a while and say okay. Enough's enough will you have here sort of the perfect storm about things for moderates in the race because basically Bernie has wrapped up and no one really saw it coming the Progressive Side and Senator Warren. Who In my opinion is shown the most? We'll call blue flame thinking and consistency this whole thing. For whatever reason she has not inspired The far left as well as Bernie and Bernie basically soaked up all the oxygen and consolidated kind of the far left and the moderates. We actually have two very talented moderates in and booties and Clovis Shar who then had to contend with a guy who came in and basically shock and on carpet bond without so the moderate vote is being split up just perfectly enough from burning to come in and because going back to clay Christiansen this notion of disruption someone comes in and focuses on an overlooked niche and the overlooked each year. Was this Bernie Bro. Very left wing younger younger voter that nobody took seriously typically what happens and disruption is. No one takes that small part of the market. Seriously they say oh. Net flicks is not a threat or this company. It is not a threat and then before you know it you wake up and nobody attacked Senator Sanders. No one has really gone after him the way they've after each other because no one took him seriously and now they're waking up in this this little this dog that was napping at you know nipping at your heels. Now has half the tour so inside its mouth late. He's played it. He's played this. This will go down as a great case study in disruption and if any of these guys had boards or fiduciaries or there was a Democratic National Committee that had any sort of intelligence or authority or competent surrounding. Its brand. They would probably be in a room right now at the moderate sang. Okay Bernie's Bernie's the winter here at Senator Sanders is going to win unless one or two of you drop out mayor Bloomberg. You have the money you need to support Clova. Shar dropped out right now in devote all your funds. Put all your guns but for air cover ground Pete or amy. Something has to happen strategically with the pieces on the board specifically some pieces have to come off the door. But here's the thing they all have unique vision that they they only they feel they can be them down there all for consolidation around them them. Exactly it's not going to happen. Yeah so I think the news stories. Who is he pick? Who was he? Pick the vice president. Okay it'll be interesting the impact on corporate because I think You know especially if there's a full split government very not very much will happen but But it'll be interesting to see how he reacts to Just big corporate and big corporate. These days is check. Those are the biggest most wanted. There's lots of where did you think of the story that he was briefed at it. Looks like the Russians are helping them. I thought he handled it really well. I never believed anything. The Russians are always putting out so much. I think I firmly believe I mean whatever Donald Trump says he's lately he's lying about it the Russians were and his and his national security adviser should should step down but he won't because they're shameless They were they've been trying to keep trump in power forever and I think that's just part of it is to think that Bernie would not beat trump but I think they should think hard really hard About that. I think there's oddly enough. My mother was like Bernie makes a Lotta Sense. She really she. I don't think she's in on him but she certainly he's appealing to her and it's the same sort of Lizard brain thing. That trump appeals to her. You know what I mean like. That's it's the same stuff anyway. We're going to move on through heartaches Morgan Stanley bought E. Trade Biggest takeover since the two thousand eight financial crisis At home Trade Services Remember. That was a thing It's a thirteen billion dollar deal. It's still a big company. brings five million retail customers. Three hundred sixty billion dollars in assets. the CEO. Michael Pissy We'll stay with the company. E-trade will keep. Its Ran. A handful of retail storefronts and a buzzy and well-funded ad campaign. I you know I spent two thousand at E. Trade when it was you know it was the hottest company at the time because of Y two K. If you remember Y Two k but to see what would we? Everyone was deployed to a different company. I went to a trade in Yahoo that night You know it was a hot company and everyone was doing trading at home and everyone thought it would grow to the moon and they're all kinds of different things and now of course this bank comes in and buys it It's just sort of you think it's the end of that idea of al or just that it's just now so integrated we don't need these separate companies. It is largely Probably signals that. The Sun has passed midday on these independent trading platforms. And I think there's a lot here because this type of investing trading stocks used to be both investing and consumption. It was meant to be a responsible way to create wealth and also it was fun. Trading stocks is now. It's become clear it's become clear that it's just consumption that the guys this entire industry called an alternative investments who supposedly had some unique insight into dislocation and Alpha they have underperformed the SNP throwing darts at stocks by the amount of their fees. One of the greatest kind of hoaxes in history was these guys and they're all white guys in their forties and fifties clipped billions of dollars and any sort of analysis. Looks like they have probably after getting lucky the first few years raising tens of billions in assets and they have likely lost more money than they gained and they underperformed the market because nobody is going to pay X. Y. Z. Fund to twenty two by net flicks and their seven stocks. That have been responsible for summer between twenty and thirty percent of the game so they have been locked out they have to. They have to beat the market with a a less robust part of the market because all the gains have created a small number of tech companies. Who Run unfettered and have monopoly. Power UNREGULATED THE CAPTURE. All the gains. So there's been a massive reallocation of capital from active investing too passive when reduces fees which creates lower commission structures? Schwab made a big purchase. I think it was of Ameritrade. The basically these guys are all getting sold for about twenty five hundred dollars an account it also reflects the big banks have wised up and realized there's traders are no smarter than anybody else and they don't want to be in this roller coaster game of trading capital which is expensive and hard and wealth management is where it's at the top. Ten percent have massively grown their wealth. They need help any tax planning. They need to navigate all these taxes. They need to understand Estate Planning and so the the best part of this. The financial sector right now is wealth. Management doesn't matter of his. Jp Morgan doesn't matter if it's Goldman Stack in addition the only way you get. Multiple expansion is to position yourself. Keira as consumer tech. So you have Goldman getting into Marcus. Goldman getting into credit cards and Morgan Stanley is effectively. A consumer firm that brings on. I think an additional five billion in assets. I can't remember what it is five million retail customers. This one's three hundred sixty billion dollars. Excuse me a million. They paid thirteen billion about twenty five hundred bucks away person so they're all becoming consumer banks because they realize the trading and the other the other thing. This indicates is again that greater consolidation of power among a few players in every industry because the FTC and the DOJ are asleep at the switch. It's going to be hard to me. A small financial services firm. How do you compete with the likes? And where does the innovation because these words innovative companies at the time? Obviously there's now this so fis there's There's all kinds of each area lemonade. And Insurance and things like that but definitely you know the the the that eventually they waited the mountain. You remember the days when everybody was trading was a home trader. I mean that was exciting for a moment. Weird and strange in sports. Yeah exactly but it really doesn't play itself out in the end. People just get exhausted just like here. Take my money. And BE PART OF AN INDEX FUND. And this and that and you can't do any better unless you're just you just made a great trade at the like I. My brother brought apple very early when it was about to go bankrupt. And he just hell he just forgot he added a century makes genius And so So it's a really interesting time. It definitely goes the of an era to me And you're right about this consolidation of this of the excitement around these companies like Ameritrade e trade and the idea that financial services were really getting disrupted by the Internet when in fact not so much. I'm curious Swisher invest. What do you do with your cabbage? How do you invest? Would you buy a banker? Lotta Tax Steph. Ladder Tax Tag is talk about taxes quite a bit but I don't I'm not interested. I'm not that interested in money as you as you might be. Scott I just. I've never cared that much to think about it. And I don't think I can beat the market. I never got interested ever white privilege. Summarize what even I just don't like I just don't I just don't I don't find it interesting. It's like you know why because finance became sports finance became sports and I hate sports so lack of you know what I mean. Everyone was talking about stocks. And you know one of the I think maybe it was Bernie Sanders. You said one of them. I mean everything now. Bernie Sanders says is brilliant It's not When he said that the the stock market is not the economy. And it's not right. It's not the economy so I'm more interested in other things and so I think we tend to equate. Trump definitely does this stock market as the economy. See The stock market. He talks about a lot when in fact it only represents as you talk about a very small group of people who are benefiting And it has nothing to do with something very interesting there and that is one of the in my second and my last class it and my view I talk about life. Strategies and one of those live strategies is that you want to figure out if you can make the jump two light speed and get good at something. Keita. He'd keep going from good to great is focus and that is focusing the capital most precious At Your Life and is your time and your attention and to get great at anything you have to almost be maniacally focused on it. And part of that is figuring out what you're going to outsource and if you have the money to have to outsource different parts of your life so she can focus more on work and I know how terrible that sounds. It's key to being graded anything and I think. A lot of young men spend way too much time thinking about the markets and trading stocks when it's not their core competence and a decent way to free up to four eight. I I mean I know a lot of young guys who buy options by Tesla by bitcoin watcher to go up watching go down. Some beat the mark on twitter talking to you on twitter. Honestly it's a waste of I. It's exotic good education. I will make money most of my life worrying about making an extra money to ETF diversified low coffee. And then take that two or four hours a week and focus on what you know. You're good at you. Can you can register a substantial increase in your excellent thereby bringing more money or I could sleep because it's like I can't even look at the stock market anymore. It just gives me a headache last story and then we're going to get to corona virus. Something happy with our expert is Saudi Arabia. There was a story. Another story about It was more detail in buzzfeed about the The people who had worked for twitter And that they had infiltrated twitter To employees they turned into moles from two thousand. Thirteen to fifteen These two men wasn't engineer. One WORKED IN THE IN THE MEDIA. Team stole identities about six thousand users who are critical of the Saudi government. And of course it was just more detail about this. This idea of being you know infiltrating these companies and how this personal date. It was very easy to find and track down and that you could really tracks someone by the when they sign onto twitter or or things like that and so I think one of the again. We talked about this before. But there's gotta be spies all over Silicon Valley and I wonder what they're doing to to to stop that whether due to facebook Google But governments do understand that you know the reason they're robbing banks is because that's where the money is the reason they're moving themselves into these companies and trying to influence them is because that's where the information isn't that's the that's the wealthiest as well if if if it's any indication how much they give a shit about teen depression or Our elections the notion that they do anything seriously to ensure that they're human capitalism in weaponized. I mean these are organizations. That don't WanNa talk about. Don't want to acknowledge anything. To get. In the way of of their skin blitz blitz scale business model or or threatens bad. Pr So scale. That's a book right. Is that a row. Tablets scale Hoffman. That's Lincoln Guy. Right so I we're GONNA find out. I think in ten or twenty years when these documents were unsealed and either we become a lesser power or someone takes a and things are unsealed. We're GONNA find out that these organizations have effectively become the most innovative act of the last ten years has been the weaponization of these platforms that we financed for the use of governments. That are one seventeenth size of ours. The most innovative act of the last ten years is detonating. This weapon called facebook in our face. Someone else shows up steals our F. Fifteens Cook County commandeered. The aircraft carriers. We've paid for times a hundred and I think it continues to take place people say I'm crazy You know I m paranoid. I may be both those things but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. I now believe I have either. Agents of the Russian government or Tesla polls showing up on my blog showing up in my twitter feed every day trying to create a narrative or undermine my viewpoint around certain things that are counter to their interests. Because why wouldn't you the cost of fifteen? You can hire thirty thousand people in in Albania to create a list of every entity in person that has countered your interest and start. Vanna very meticulous methodical way starred undermining your credibility. If I go on your twitter feed care whenever you talk about these issues and I see people who are. It's always the same thing like they try to come across reasonable. But say you're you're wrong on this topic or they make a personal insult or they find something you're vulnerable around and start trying to create a fire around those issues and I look at these people and usually eighty percent or ninety percent of them have ten followers fifteen followers. You can't find out who they are are being stalked. Scott my second. We all are. I think our nation is being stock. Only the paranoid survive. Who said those Andy Grove? That's right yeah. Anyways I the notion that these firms aren't being weaponized it as a species and this is very dangerous in its Gulnara -bility about our species as species. We are easier to fool than convince. We've been fooled and unfortunately true. Unfortunately we have decided. We are so offended by the notion that a nation seventeenth the size of ours. Russia has weaponized Almost every every platform that we look to for innovation and our poster child for America it so offensive to us that we would rather continue to be weaponized and fooled then acknowledged. We've been fooled. And I think twitter I think twitter's clearly has very little regard for the Commonwealth and the toxin can deal with your these companies and then we're GonNa go to break it back and to my current affairs but What what would you do if you all these people? You're hiring like crazy right. You're always looking for good people and you're expanding across the globe. In this case the engineer was working on their Middle Eastern strategies that they were they were they were expanding their and he was and the other person there was was dealing with getting prominent Saudis to come onto twitter. This guy worked on the media. Team how do you that people how do you? How do you know what to do when you're hiring it such as speed and you can't monitor every one? What is is there? A solution of this is you know this is where the information is. And this is where these cut compliments. WanNa be and you know you're going to get pressure from these governments no matter what because it makes sense for them to do that. I think the versus verified identity. I think a lot of this problem gets gets swept the people on the sites but I'm talking about employees. I would invite the FBI and say we want your help. This is an issue of national security. We want your help screening and bedding employees and then you do a couple purple oxen. Yeah people even handcuffs. I think he got scared. The shit out of them. Yeah so but you don't. I don't think you can prevent it. And then on online to have verified identities did this would like cripple their businesses. You know that to have to do this. Well okay if if it does cripple their business what it means is their business is being run on lies and falsehood so bring on the cripple all right. Well that's a very disappointed view. That's point of use got. I'm sorry I've a blue check mark on next wife. Well there's a long story behind that we will get RENITA bigger boat. We need a bigger boat. It's it's expensive is expensive and they messed up. I think I think it's unavoidable that there are spies all over Silicon Valley. There's gotTa be hundred Blake Right. I've heard stories at Google Youtube at at facebook like. Oh did you know that person was thought to? I think they need to just bring in really serious detective work when they're doing hiring and they were high. They've been hiring an unprecedented rate and not doing enough vetting. I just think vetting critical for these companies. These are like you know the way they vet Defense Department contractors and things like that. I think they've got a vet themselves like they're like any other business that are part of national security and I think it's really they don't think of it like that. 'cause they're making you know apps for dating or whatever they're doing but these are these are these companies when people have this much access to this data there has to be more There's custody more vetting happening at these. Come back again to this other unfortunate narrative of the biggest issues facing our our world whether it's crumbling infrastructure income inequality or climate change or quite frankly the weaponization of these The perversion of our democracies at the hands of these platforms. And what do we do? We start cutting budgets across all of the resources in governmental departments. The need them when we need them most such that we can cut taxes on corporations in rich people and the wheel spins Cara and all my guides on this depressing episode a pivot. We're GONNA talk about Corona virus when we get back yes. I think we both agree that the world is going to hell in handbasket. Anyway we're GONNA take time for a quick break. We'll be right back with a friend of Pivot Matthew Freeman. He is going to break down. What is actually happening with the spread of Harouna virus and then we'll do wins and fails if we survive here. Goodbye say goodbye. Goodbye that lasted just flat. 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Visit better help dot com slash pivot today. That's better help. Dot Com slash pivot. One of the bigger unlocks in. Our Society is waiting for us now to de stigmatize mental health issues. Feel better about yourself. The first step is to take action. Okay we're back. We have mapped Freeman here. In the studio he is an associate professor. At the University of Maryland he specializes in microbiology and specifically in Emerging Corona viruses. Which is good timing for him. He joined us the Code Conference last year to talk on a panel called pandemic response preparing for the unplanned able which was kind of interesting Head of that idea So it makes them the perfect person to teach us about what's going on with corona virus. So why don't you start by giving us the latest update because it seemed like it was confirmation then a spate of headlines today affecting the stock market affecting everything. Sure so As of this morning it's around. Seventy five thousand seventy nine thousand people infected a little over twenty six hundred deaths spreading now to twenty nine countries and the really worrying part. Now is that While a lot of the cases are in China there is Emergency cases and other countries around the world including Iran Italy Now Kissing Singapore and really spreading into epicenters around the world. So tell us what we know about the virus and how it is spreading how it's spreading so this virus is similar to the STANDARD KRONA VIRUSES. That we know of the causa comical so every winter. You don't know it but there's four other human viruses give you a cold around. Tend to thirty percent of the colds are krona's To give you a runny nose. Sore throat cough. And that's it and they go away and this virus is in the same family as that you other human resources That we know of stars. Moore's It's really similar to SARS which emerged and sales and three in China and Except it's not as lethal as our sources about ten percent lethal bitter only spread to eight thousand people that we know of so. This is spreading at a much higher rate than the previous virus But now the case tolerate about two and a half percent But right now so it's spreading basically by coughs and sneezes there seems to be potentially a fecal transmission route as well which makes it a little scarier and Were it spreading like a really bad cold virus? What is the danger? Here's the danger. Obviously I two and a half percent sounds low but two and a half percent of several million people get pretty pretty scary pretty fast. What is WHAT IS THE THE DOOMSDAY SCENARIO? What is what is how does this turn into something. How does how does this? Sum of all fears happened. Here we have you modeled this out if things go really bad so there's a lot of scenarios that can happen at the I would say the worst case scenario is that it spreads around the world like a common cold it. It's a new virus that we haven't seen before there's no immunity and announced breads do a billion people and so two percent rate is probably not gonna stay that high That number is really high inside who they province in Wuhan China outside of. It's not that high at the moment but we don't know the denominator we don't know actually. How many kids throwing because there's eighty percent of the cases are either mild or Cases so we're probably only seeing the tip at iceberg in those seventy nine thousand cases goose two billion people and it may not be the death may not be as high but more people get it in the potential for that right and even outside of that. There's a massive worry about the hospital system in healthcare system being overwhelmed and so what is being used. The now outside of China is basically mitigation practices. So this this viruses out. It is going around countries. The second wave of the virus is now happening in countries around the world the US available to hold off this outbreak at the moment and what the ideal scenario would be is that we mitigate and lessen the peak of the viruses comes in it spreads out over multiple months so that the while there can be more mild cases the healthcare system is overwhelmed. And so like you said in the beginning. Get your flu shot Do everything you can to not get sick the next several months. So that you can mitigate and not have to go to the hospital so when when it turns into a pandemic explain the difference between epidemic pandemic and that was that was headlines. I think which are affecting the stock market and everything else. The word pandemic is a frightening word but obsolete and so this is basically semantics of what's going on but Pandemic generally means that the viruses now had sustained spread and countries around the world. And so the where you have. Basically cases that are unlinked to their origin so unlinked to China but now you have person to person spread in countries that are outside of the epicenter in Wuhan. And so. That's what we're seeing now in Iran. Probably that's what we're seeing in Italy Singapore And really many countries around the world. And there's no vaccine. There's no way to solve this correct at this point. Correct so we don't have a vaccine Many are being developed right now as fast as possible. There's many therapeutics. They're being tested and other types of antibodies and drugs. That are being tested in labs around the world. I mean if you remember two months ago we didn't have any cases. And now they're seventy nine thousand plus and that is a remarkable increase in speed and so now that the labs around the world and and healthcare centers around the world getting line and Testing Therapeutics against this virus will be able to hopefully in the very near future. Get something on the shelf whether it's FDA approved drugs or or similar things that can be tested in the lab and then really put into the clinic for use so when this is the first major outbreak since two thousand and three and since China's global superpower that obviously linked to the global supply chain again. The market was affected. Eight hate to bring in business things. But the the effect of what happens is massive quarantine in China Facebook canceling its for example. Lots of companies Annual Marketing Conference. It was planning to host in San Francisco next month over concerns We're five thousand. People were expected to attend. Is this the right thing to do? Because China so linked to the global supply chain not just in making things in manufacturing which people are going to work but in terms of gatherings and is that the is that the responsible thing to do. Is that the correct thing to do. So there's definitely two angles to this. I'm definitely not an economist. I'm a rural just so bear with me but I think from the standpoint of the virus and trying to mitigate and lessen the amount of spread closing these meetings and canceling these massive facebook meeting which do a real need another massive face now Can we you know that we can get away with those things now and And the more if you're sick and the and you don't have to go to work. You could work from home you know. This is the time for those companies. It's planning those events right. That's what I talked about it. The CO conference. Was that when this thing happens. You con companies should have secondary ways of communicating with the personnel. Getting business. Done when you're a factory in China that's really hard so just today. The Chinese government is allowing companies to start bringing back employees. That had been away in their hometowns for the Chinese New Year. When this head which is when this hit right so one of the big worries is that now that people come back into these factories From from outside Kubay. Will they? Now be a new susceptible population and so. There's you know while the Chinese economy is obviously critical for the global supply chain whether it's just For Your Doodad or whether it's other things that we need to have around the world I think it's a really hard call and I. I'm glad I'm not the one making those calls because I don't know I don't know what the downside of Delaying this arc. More weeks in China is highly. That's manufacturing what about gathering? You know there was a lot of different ideas. Wha what is what. Do you do these gatherings? When there's there's a lot of networking happening all over the world is that just the best thing just stay home is essentially what you're saying so in the context of when this virus is now coming. I mean in the US. Now if you're having you know it's not like don't go to sporting events this week but you know in the coming months is that that could easily be something that the CDC in the US government recommend is to eliminate these math gatherings whether it's churches whether sporting events whether it's concerts whatever it is to really reduce the spread of this virus and still most American workers. When they're sick they still go to work. We're really bad at that. And that's why flu spread so well and cold spread soil. So if you do have an illness you should stay home Most of the time. It's not hospital. You don't need to to the hospital especially if this virus eighty percent are mild cases. But if you have a cold stay home you should wash your hands more. You should have social distancing. Which is this idea of being away from people that are sick. And that's the way to mitigate spreads you can really lessen the effect on health care system so doctor Dr Freeman. I'm curious is so stay at home. When you're not feeling well that seems to be just sound advice What about in a few weeks? I'm supposed to go to Vienna and a few weeks after that. I'm supposed to go to South Paulo. Would you advise corporations and individuals whose to cut back on international travel for a while so I really think it probably depends on the country. You're going to but clearly there's international spread of this virus in Italy now in northern Italy around these body region around Milan and And Lake Como so hopefully Jordan. The they're they're telling everyone to stay inside. There's an outbreak there. They have something around one hundred cases so far and six or seven deaths and The denominator there was probably much larger than we know. So you know whether there'd Vienna is going to be spared in the coming weeks That's a big question and I would watch your State Department travel advisories closely to know The doesn't see much in South America whether that's because of testing or lack of testing or whether it's because there's viruses lead area is another question but You know I don't think we're at the need to block. Total international travel yet. That's not really what the government is recommending. But I think that in the coming weeks to months you could see these recommendations really Broadening to other countries. And what advice would you have for elected officials and governments who distinct at a short term tactics to try and push back on this specific virus? What kind of long term investments or actions do you think we need to take to be better prepared for something like this moving forward so there definitely has to be control of the Healthcare System? So that is where the money should be going to a prop it up to to get all the protective material. They need to make sure that the healthcare system is taken care of hospitals. Have all the equipment. They needed all the protection. They need to protect the doctors and nurses and other staff because if the hospital workers get infected and they are sick then it is a. It's a really hard thing for us to do. And so that's a really hard thing for the US to handle. That's why as much as you can do now to not get infected get sick into really lengthen. The process of this virus coming to the. Us is the better that we can do and in terms of we. We make predicts on pivot? But what? How do you game this in a typical? You know an epidemic pandemic way or there isn't a gay there. There are patterns of these things going correct or not What are some of the scenarios you see over the next couple of months right so the I think the coming scenarios are really Kind of several fold one idea. Is that the virus does have this large burst in China that the other countries around the world can contain the cases they have and we get localized spread. And that's it right. That's a great scenario as we are right now A couple weeks ago I would have said we want to give everything China one or two cases around the world and that's an we clearly have gone through that that scenario is over so maybe all these countries around the world can really contain this. I think that it's questionable that that countries in Even developed countries are really able to control the virus spreading in the community The the big worry now is that it spreads to large population centers like Africa Multiple countries in Africa or India. Where you really can have this rampant spread and you get these large bursts. The other scenario is that this that the populations in the countries are able to control the virus a bit but then we still get the spread around the world especially because the incubation periods to be five or six days before you're infected. There's evidence that you can spread during your cinematic period Sm- some evidence that that's true and so now people that travel around the world and bring the virus with them and they don't know they're sick and that's the big a big problem in a big worry about these kind of Restaurant Irises. And if this virus gets the US and the Western Hemisphere in large numbers than You know the genie's out of the bag and and that's where the the the ability to control the viruses really after community and local level The government needs to give supplies to everybody that they can commit to control those operate and I think that the CDC will call in a lot of the Potomac response capabilities that they have which includes you know potentially closing schools closing businesses. Make telling people to work from home. I mean that's long-term right. This is this is downstream scenario. But I think that's scenario four or five down the list and in most cases these have not brown like sorry. The hundred percent absolutely right so Even nine each one epidemic. The flu epidemic until nine The swine flu epidemic. There wasn't schools closed. There wasn't this this plan that that happened But that is you know we're planning for basically a combination you know middle ground between SARS and flew and that is what the CDC is trying to understand and model. And I will leave it to them to figure out what the right scenario is in the future. I'm Scott My have one more is. Are we eventually going to have something? That is not controllable. I when you think when you're you're sitting my garage or virologist do you is that sort of the the great worries sort of like nuclear proliferation. That kind of thing. Is there a feeling at that? Is where we're headed eventually as a human race. Yes I think that the immune response and people are remarkably resilient to these kind of infections and so whether it's disinfection or or any other infection and so the we won't have you know massive billion people dead that's not the scenario at all I will say that the the population that is most the has severe cases from this at sixty and older. So you know. Is there a more severe outbreak in elderly and come come? Morbid and immuno-compromised absolutely Where this goes in the future you know who knows I think when SARS emergent two thousand and three This one we started working on it. Then this was a It was a new thing. It was the first epidemic Or outbreak of the Twentieth Century or twenty first century and and Murs another riveted virus- emerging Saudi Arabia still spreading or emergent tools and twelve and everything. We predicted for SARS. When we said maybe this will happen in the future again. We should really study. It happened in two thousand twelve and after Murs we said okay. Well it doesn't transmit that well but it's thirty. Five percent lethal. We should still study this to really understand and develop therapeutics as fast as we can And we still don't have anything on the shelf to give anyone and now again now into dozen Nineteen you know. There's now three emerging viruses in eighteen years. This isn't going away and it'll just keep coming. And so what we do know is that we learn more and more from everyone is operatives and that's the good thing that we learned in the lab. That's a good thing. We learned the clinic. And hopefully this will. This outbreak will develop therapeutics that prepares for the next one that we don't even know occurs. Yeah that was GONNA be. My next question is how do we Everything we were talking about is a reaction to an outbreak. How do we start to play offense instead of defense and go to the very source of where these viruses are manifested? Is there anything we can do to to just ensure these things never happen? So it's impossible to I think game mother nature and to me. They never happened. But these viruses that we know especially SARS in this and Sars two or whatever we're calling this cove in nineteen the Knicks. Coaching job in nineteen. Wj calls it at this weekend but go ahead so they. Both of them emerged Probably emerged from animal sources so these are bat viruses that have spilled over into people and whether they've gone through an animal intermediate like did for SARS went through civic cats. We don't know the animal intermediate for this one But it looks like it came from an animal and all most current viruses have been tracked back to bats at some level. And so there is that that's a whole another hour for that But there there is a a interaction between animals and humans and the more interaction. There is the more of these spillover events that can occur. And so there's a lot of people at work on that animal side trying track these viruses to understand where they come from and how they get two people How often this happens. And what the data shows is that happens all the time and most of the time they're dead ends but every once in a while you get the wrong virus with the wrong mutation in the wrong person and then they spread and that's it and so that's what we have amazing. Sorry I'm sorry I'm just curious from From from bats to animals to humans is it bites. Is it fecal matter? How does it how does it make the jump? Yes nobody really understands even for SARS how it went from bats to to to civic cats to humans or bats potentially to this whatever the intermediate is for this one to humans potentially fecal matter potentially it's saliva if you watch contagion. The last two minutes contagion have a great scenario of basically Nipah virus. Which is bats eating a piece of fruit? They drop in the pig pen. The farmer picks the pickup sends it to market And then going pelter dies right so That's that's good. Is that on? Netflix connects watch. It this weekend. Peyton I like the Dustin Hoffman movie outbreak. I'm GonNa ask you the weirdest question. We gotta go all I watch you know. Have a play person. I watch all of them. Which of the many outbreak. Yes of course for Dustin Hoffman's with the with the helicopter with Cuba could save the world's GonNa van right exactly and they picked money. So what is there any of them? That are really good where you're like okay. That's contagion was really good. Yeah I mean there's there's a about a forty five second scene where the I'm blanking Where there's a a explanation over the are? Not which the transmissibility factor And that's a beautiful way of explaining the general public of how viruses spread from person to person and how we characterize that I think the you know the the speed of that movie is quite rapid about how it spreads and spreads and it's a combination of viruses that are shown there are there are displayed in that movie in the movie. But I think the last two minutes of that movie where they show Interactive in bats in animals and humans is completely realistic and completely legitimate And I think that that contagion is a great way of understanding potentially how the worst case scenario goats all right. Oh goodness sake if some some beautiful enjoyment for your week for your entertainment week it actually is a great movie. It is a terrific comes. Back to net flicks. It doesn't matter what we're talking about home and watch Netflix. Do not get the virus. Right you know from a business L. Net flicks Disney. Plus you know if your kids God the tech industry is GonNa do something good for once as we talk on slack so there is actually adding value. Dr Freeman urine gangster. Thanks very really appreciate. This is Matt Freeman. He's a he's an associate professor at the Maryland. He specializes in microbiology Thank you so much for coming on. No problems okay. Scott how do you feel? What's the temperature so to speak? I just listened to that Guy. I start to feel faint. Don't you start to feel like my hand? So that's a good sign. He didn't like there was no mask wearing. There was no non Angie King and stuff like that running Anyway is it. I've been sick all winter. I've been I've had a cold and flu winter That's just. I'm getting close to that virus. Dying people I do not joke about an I. I do have an obsession with them though Anyway so wins and fails obviously MATT WINS. But wins and fails of this week. would you like to go first? So my gangster colleague professor alter talks about how in periods of stress. Woo Ram Calms. Do really well. And then when the economy's good depressing you know movies about whatever about the war or something. Do really well. So I'm not going to have a fail because I feel like it feels. Kinda scary out there right now. My win is diarrhea future president. I wrote a post Every Friday right of post on no mercy no malice Propped DOT COM. Thank you very much And this last week I wrote about moments of engagement With my sons and one of the ways we have moments in engagement is a family and again it all comes back to Netflix. Is We fine? We all vote on a program that we WANNA watch and then we all watch it together and it's nice and the program we're watching now is diarrhea of a future president and it's on Disney plus and it's really It's really wonderful. It's a about a single mom so obviously it tugs at it tugs on my heart but it's it touches on a lot of I think it's actually quite for Disney plus a touches on a lot of you know fairly uncomfortable or a pretty open and honest about what. It's like to be a girl. I think not that I know too much about this in junior high school. And I think it's I think it's a lovely show and my sons are learning a lot and I think they do a great job. And we're bonding over. So Kudos to test Romero. Who is a lovely young actress and does a great job? The woman place a single mothers amazing. It's about a single mother and I think a key American household raising her son and her daughter and I think it's an interesting one works on a lot of levels anyways my win is diarrhea future. President it's a good choice. It's I like that you watch teen. That's that's aimed at the teen market. You know that's aimed at but I like that. You'RE A TEEN MARKET WATCHER OF STUFF. I do too. I watch that. I WATCH WINSTON FAILS CARA I. There was just a recent interview with Warren Buffett that I just loved. I think two things to wash wins is John. Oliver did an amazing I show about Medicare for all and stuff like that. I thought it was great and I think it was interesting. All the people I know watched it and talked about quite a bit my kids and their friends and and other kids. I've talked to talked about that. I thought that was great and then Warren Buffett gave an interview today saying he's Never GonNa crypto currency talked about apple being gray talked about corona virus listening to him. Go on he didn't have. Yeah I thought it was great. I thought it was really great. And I like One of the things he says. I'm a Democrat but I'm not a card carrying Democrat. It is however card-carrying capitals. We'll see what happens. It sounds like it's not too happy with Bernie Sanders So so anyway. I thought that was. They're both very entertaining in their own way. So I like those And then fail. Is You know. The slowness of these companies still putting out warnings The stuff that the national security advisor was talking about this weekend about how he had not seen any analysis of the Russians. Interfering with the elections I thought was was was Malpractice on the part of a national security advisor Maybe he didn't read them or didn't look at them. But these appointments of people like him and Richard Richard Grenell who is totally incompetent to the job and seems like a son of a bitch but I think putting these people in these things at the ultimate danger to our world And it's really important that we have competent people acting telling the truth about things that are going on even if it's not to their interest and the the the two national the situation when national security right now which is critical in this point with corona virus all these big issues facing the world of false statements and Things I think we're leaving it to these companies to to to to battle stuff now twitter's experimenting with putting a labels read labels orange labors under false statements. That's really it's the fig leaf of what we need to have happen here and the fact that this is what this is the best we have is little label saying this is allies. Just depressing may in the extreme. Thank you very much. What are you doing this week? What do you say? Let's jungle cat doing this week? I'm going to Miami tomorrow and then And at night foundation situation. There's invent there and then go to San Francisco. I'm going to San Francisco and I'm doing a lot of things in San Francisco. A lot of interviews. I am spending some time there. I am going all around the place And interview Mark Benny off next week for example All kinds of stuff so I'm going back to see what's going on in San Francisco. I just did an amazing interview with Connor Doherty He wrote a book called Golden. Gate's it's about the fight for housing in America And I'm interested in In checking in with a lot of tech people well good save traveled doing So I go back to New York tomorrow night and then next week. I'm going to La for a reunion with my fraternity brothers from Ucla. And then I'm speaking at a friend's high school with some excited about. Oh that's so nice. Hand Scott's wash your hands as has Dr Friedman says hands and be careful when you travel and make sure that you you isolate yourself minute you feel sick thank you because you say yourself the moment you feel what sexy. That happens all the time. No excuse me. How can I corona virus? It's not happening on this Joe. You're going to be raised about the situation. Grave warnings for people. It's a very serious issue. I'll be concerned about. There's no sex jokes here too interesting. That all right okay. We're GONNA have a shout out today To see you Yang. I think that's correct way. Prasad who sent a very thoughtful and personal email about how she was comforting her friends in China struggling through the quarantine corona virus outbreak. Our listeners personal insights generally do make the show stronger so keep your e mails coming and email us at pivot at Vox Media Dot Com to feature on the show or just. Tell us what you think of what we're doing. Today's show was produced by Rebecca synonymous. Erika Anderson is pivots Executive Producer. Thanks also to Rebecca Castro drew boroughs. Make sure your subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts. Or or if you're an android user check us out on spotify or frankly wherever you listen to podcasts. Join US later in the week and we'll break down all things tack and business. Stay safe out there care. Stay Safe Scott.

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