38 Burst results for "Donald trump"
Fresh "Donald trump" from BBC World Service
"A more conventional approach. But the challenge for the Americans, I think is in a way exemplified by Tony Blinken. His remarks that you played just a few minutes ago. This balance between interests and values because America's interests in the Korean pincer, obviously preventing a security crisis. There are human rights issues, and I think it's been striking the secular state. Lincoln has highlighted those in the last few days when it comes to North Korea, but it's a question I think of finding the right combination. North Korea with 30 nuclear warheads by most conservative estimate is a real and present danger. Under its young leadership, and Kim Jong un. It's a country that is keen to deliver economic progress, and that's the opportunity if you like. It's the opportunity to the Americans to try and sit down at some point at a mid level bureaucratic level. I don't think we're going to see President Biden rushing to repeat the experience of Donald Trump and to give Kim Jong un the sort of platform that he had before, But there will be an effort. I think to look at opportunities to find a way of re engaging and getting the discussion moving because The longer we remain in this place of Stasis. The more time the North has to develop not just its nuclear our armory, but also it's you know, increasingly sophisticated. Conventional weapons on there is an impatience. I think also on the part of South Korea under the leadership of President Moon Jae in To try and get these talks back on track and to find a way of breaking the deadlock. Indeed, the but the longer that sanctions remain in place. Some might say the longer that the North Korea's humanitarian disaster continues to develop. I. Just this week, the World Food Program warned that it might have to cease operations this year because it simply can't get aid or staff in at the moment. Yeah. And of course, you know that's complicated by covert 19. It was the North Korean decision very dramatically to close all of its borders, particularly border with China in January of last year. Because of its fear of covert 19. That's added to the problems that North Korea has been facing on top of which, of course, natural disasters flooding all of this is created. I think it particularly parlous situation in the North. We shouldn't least track with the fact that there are real humanitarian issues here, but humanity made can be provided The sanctions regime doesn't prohibit that. It is calibrated, You know, just as we've been talking about Saudi Arabia and the importance of imposing sanctions on undesirable leaders, Kim Jong un is sanctioned quite might be, so I think he's a pretty important individual in terms of the way he governs his country. Bond. We shouldn't lose track of that. But there are ways of, I think again balancing those two critical sets of issues. On dealing with the reality that the North Korean challenges is confronting other countries in the region, South Korea and Japan with their own strategic challenges, known strategic dilemmas, So finding a way through is really important. All right, well, let's let's stay in the region but move over torno their guest. Julie, Julie Norman, you've been Tracking events in me and Marty, you were supposed to be visiting the country around this time. That's exactly right, Celia. I'm on an Irish aid project that's trying to improve humanitarian aid in conflict zones. And so we visited Myanmar in 2018, and we're set to be back there this month for our second phase, and Corona derailed that before the coup did, but Obviously following things very closely now. The initial crew, of course, but also the protests and the response of young people in particular to the two coming out ends just engaging and not only Uh, hi. Participation rates in these protests that very creative protests as well that have gotten a lot of traction online and whatnot and strikes across the country. So a really interesting moment right now for Myanmar. Obviously worse thing, however, states react to this, too, in terms of sanctions in terms of whether they recognize this government or not, But for me really interested in how Um people within Myanmar are responding to this. I It's interesting would be just to mention sanctions. We were just talking about sanctions. In terms of how they've been affecting North Korea. Do you think sanctions will really have any effect on events inside Myanmar? I don't think they'll have a huge effect. Honestly, Celia, I mean, there have been sanctions already in place on Myanmar in the past. The U. S. In particular, as John mentioned, has always been trying to kind of balance this use of sanction for pressure on the one hand but looking for opportunities for engagement on the other, And there's just very inconsistent Sanctions Now with me and Mara and and moving forward that will most likely be the case as well. I think in many situations like this again, the real pressure for change comes from within, and we're seeing that right now, in very important ways. There were also reports this moment this morning that I'm Su Chi's government will try and from interim government to kind of counter the cruise on down the military government right now, so if they can get some traction I think that is more of where we'll see some movement. Okay. Thank you, Julie. Well, it is 18 minutes past the hour. You're listening to weekend on the BBC World Service. Now, Andy borrow well, joins us with the latest sports news. Let's start by looking at the day's men's English Premier League football and In Manchester City. Keep their incredible run going, aunty. Pepe Cordell is team start the day 10 points clear at the top of the Premier League table. It could be 13 points by the close of play since their closest challenges Don't play until tomorrow. Now Magister City at home to West Ham United today in the early kickoff, they're looking to make it 20 back to back victories in all competitions. That run stretches back to December, the 15th last year, but it promises to be a tough challenge today. West Ham of struggled in recent times, but they're having a great campaign into their boss, David Moyes at the moment, West Ham a top four, so if they stayed there, that would mean European Champions League action next season. Quite a turnaround under Moyes, who certainly appreciates just what Guardia Lauriston it city despite Manchester City having wealthy backers He certainly makes you think unique and he gives, you know problems to try and solve because of the qualities players and Stevie defeat. The money to spend on by the top players are trying at the top players, which is always a big help. Up indefinitely. He's a manager who you know, has he's all stay.
At conservative conference, Trump is still the golden boy
"Hi Mike Rossi a reporting at C. pack former president trump is still the golden boy Florida welcome see Patty may have lost his reelection bid but make no mistake Donald Trump is still the dominant force in conservative politics that frustrate because seventy five million people voted for Donald Trump he is still the leader of this party make no doubt about C. pack the conservative political action conference opened Friday in Orlando Florida where senator Ted Cruz of Texas was among the speakers they want him to go away let me tell you this right now Donald J. trump they go in anywhere C. pack was moved to Orlando this year due to pandemic restrictions in Maryland and the audience bristled when told to obey local mask requirements on Sunday the faithful will get to see trump in his first post presidential appearance hi Mike Rossi up that we need to comply with the rules
Fresh update on "donald trump" discussed on AP 24 Hour News
"For Donald Trump. He is still the leader of this party. Make no doubt about it. Donald Trump CPAC. The conservative political action conference opened Friday in Orlando, Florida, where Senator Ted Cruz of Texas was among the speakers. I want him to go away. Let me tell you this right now. Donald J. Trump ain't going anywhere. CPAC was moved to Orlando this year due to pandemic restrictions in Maryland, and the audience bristled when told to obey local mask requirements. On Sunday, the faithful will get to see Trump in his first post presidential appearance. I might grow CIA. We need to comply with the rules. Florida welcome CPAC. He may have lost his reelection bid. But make no mistake. Donald Trump is still the dominant force in conservative politics frustrate because 75 million people voted for Donald Trump. He is still the leader of this party. Make no doubt about it. Donald Trump is CPAC. The conservative political action conference opened Friday in Orlando, Florida, where Senator Ted Cruz of Texas was among the speed. Curs. They want him to go away. Let me tell you this right now. Donald J. Trump ain't going anywhere. CPAC was moved to Orlando this year due to pandemic restrictions in Maryland, and the audience bristled when told to obey local mask requirements. On Sunday, the faithful will get to see Trump in his first post presidential appearance. I might grow CIA. We need to comply with the rules when we made on you, McDonald Spicy Chicken McNuggets. You were Prince hands Emoji. Then we ran out and you were streaming tears emerging. Now they're back so you can be.
Former President Trump Headlines Conservative Gathering CPAC
"Trump headlines the premier Conservative gathering CPAC. For Pacifica Network and Public News Service. I'm Mary Sherman and their conference dedicated to the future of the conservative movement is already underway. And it's turned into an ode to Donald Trump. As speakers declared today, their fealty to the former president and attendees posed for Selfies with a golden statue of his likeness. As the Republican Party grapples with deep divisions over the extent to which they should embrace Trump After losing the White House and losing both chambers of Congress, those gathered at the annual conservative political Action Conference in central Florida made clear they're not ready to move on from the former president or from his baseless charges that the November election was rigged against him. Republican Senator Just Holly of Missouri, a potential presidential 2024 awful drew among the loudest applause today and the standing ovation when he bragged about Is challenging of the election certification on January 6th despite the storming of the Capitol building by Trump's supporters trying to halt the Institutionally mandated process. Trump will not arrive at the conference until Sunday, but was present in spirit in the form of a large golden statue erected in a merchandise show booth where attendees could pose for pictures with it more from reporters. Simon marks the stage is set in the US for a big weekend in Republican Party politics. Former President Donald Trump will address the conservative political action conference in Florida, where he's expected to stake his claim to the ongoing leadership of the Republican Party. The former president's former White House chief of staff is Mark Meadows. We will see the start of planning for the next administration, and I can tell you The people. They're the top of that list. All of them have. Trump is their last name. He spoke to Fox News Simon marks reporting. Immigrant rights activists
Fresh update on "donald trump" discussed on MSNBC Rachel Maddow (audio)
"That's right it's fifteen thousand dollars a year and that's if you're lucky enough to even get that i just talked to a home care worker in west. Virginia who is is looking after people with autism and allie. He's earning twelve thousand dollars. Okay twelve thousand dollars. Can't buy your car. He can't take care of himself. And i think this is the struggle that so many people across the country are facing in. That's why a state like florida that went for donald trump in november also passed with a super majority of voters up fifteen dollars minimum wage. And this is long overdue. It's been twelve years Since the federal minimum wage has been raised as you said it was two thousand twelve. When fast food workers i went on strike with the fight for fifteen it was two thousand fourteen when my city became the first major city in the country to pass minimum wage and here we are almost ten years later talking about a phased in minimum wage to fifteen over the next five years. So this is urgent and we just have to deliver on this promise. They said seattle was going to be wiped off the face of the earth for that all the jobs would leave and seattle would would collapse. Didn't quite happen. That way congressman. Good to see you as always thank you for taking time to join us tonight from Policy chair of the congressional progressive caucus. So the twenty twenty election did not go the way. Republicans wanted but instead of changing the policies. They ran on republican controlled. State legislatures are now. Try to change. How voting works. I'll have more on that just ahead..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"I thought it would be a big boost to the economy. That was really needed. Then i was pretty gung ho about. Yeah you should do it. Even if the polling is bad if it looks the other way though then like i think precisely because political powers fleet it. You want to do stuff that that builds pow right like. You wanna do stuff. That either alters the structural underpinnings of politics or that you know makes people like you and want to vote for your people in the midterms and for reelection and then to just kind of blow it on a one off hand out of money. That does it. Like create a program that it doors for the long term it's just to me like not super duper compelling and if anything like that's my biggest question about this whole covid relief. Bill is that like it involves the expenditure of a lot of money and sort of one offs. That may not create enduring legacy. But the good news about it. Is that like the polling. On this covert relief. Bill is like insanely good. The public's support is on president biden's side polling shows nearly seven in ten americans back the covid relief. Bill as is there's even higher support for his fourteen hundred dollar stimulus check proposal. So good for them. You know like they wrote something. That's going to do a lot of help for people and that people really like but you know student debt. I dunno man like it. Just the biggest problem with it. I think is that feeds into a caricature of democrats as mostly concerned with like pointy headed people's problems rather than working class people's problems you know and i i think beyond specific issue polling. It's like you have to work on party. Image stuff like he was really good like when when republicans stage like crazy riot and we're going to start murdering people in the capitol building like that was a really bad luck effort for the gop and it's any put them on the defensive. You know for all this time right. Democrats like the normal party. That's like trying to help people with their vaccines will. Republicans are trying to murder the capitol police. That's good. that's like that's how you win. So okay i mean look. I obviously feel much more strongly about dc statehood and And democracy reform general than i do about student debt forgiveness and because i am a resident of the district of columbia and i have no political representation and that's bad for me and they would be helping me and in a similar way. If i had student debt i would feel more strongly. I think about the idea that they should just use the fact that they have the power now to do the thing that will help me and if and the notion that they would not do it because they were trying to Charter course map. That lead like lead to some optimal political outcome based on what ideas were popular. And what weren't would piss me off a lot. I'd be really mad about it. Right like and i think that like the analysis should kind of end at do we have the power to is it good and not to not to get yourself wrapped around the axle of super unpopular things all the time but like abolish student loan debt on saturday if it's unpopular and then move on to a minimum wage fight on monday and make that a big deal but do it because it's a good thing to do right like if we say that it's not worth doing because it's unpopular then you kind of you adopt this Outlook i think where you're never going to be able to like get behind if you abolish private health insurance which is unpopular. But i think a really good idea and like if there's another war in the middle east that were involved in and people are out. There chanting no blood for oil and it's unpopular chance so our advice is now. Don't get behind the antiwar movement. Then a lot of people are gonna end up getting killed. Yeah i mean look am i mean you get into a question of. What exactly is the moral urgency of delivering student. Loan relief in a world where we already have income based repayments and where we're giving people stimulus tax and unemployment and things like that like i think with all these things you have to look at all the other factors all the considerations that are in play. I mean again. If i thought that doing student loan relieve was like the way to rescue the economy from its doldrums. Yeah like you just gotta do it right like you gotta you gotta rip the band aid off and go do the right thing. I think though that if that's not true right if we're seeing really rapid economic growth if we're seeing a second multi trillion dollar Covid relief bill kind of rolling through congress but if members of congress themselves cannot bring themselves to see student debt relief as worth prioritizing in legislation than like raises. The question of why. Why are you bothering to do it. Now it's true though is that if interest rates stay super duper low so that it just doesn't matter then like yeah absolutely. Just do it. Monday and then pick a fight about something else on tuesday all right so for for for purposes of a podcast about the first hundred days of the biden presidency if if we reach day one hundred and it seems like this way in his back pocket the inclination maybe not mind but in the in the universe pundits who are talking about how well biden has or hasn't done are going to say he like he didn't make good on that promise that that's a miss for him. I kind of take you generally to be saying that if it's not done by day one hundred doesn't actually say much at all about you. Know how well he's delivering on anything because he could do it at any time and it might actually be wiser for him to hang onto this and deploy. It added more strategic moments. So long as he's not trying to wait the public out so that they forget that he made this promise and then just never do it. Well i mean if there's one thing we know right back this will not be forgotten because the class of people who is like most impacted by student at in the united states are just like literally that people write the media. You know like if you go to college and then if you're a little bit younger than you right if you graduated from college in the depths of the great recession and he like moved to new york or dc is like high rent cities to work for shitty pay and digital media like you have really like not been well served by the higher education finance system in the united states or by the american economy. And you're really fired up about student debt right. And that's one of the reasons why this topic has bubbled.
Joe Biden speaks to Saudi Arabia's King Salman
"The us president. Joe biden has spoken by phone with king salman of saudi arabia as the white house resets. The relationship between washington and riyadh ties between the two countries have become significantly closer during donald trump's time in office but this has been further complicated by matters following the murder of the journalist. Jamal khashoggi a us report due to be released shortly is expected to implicate the king's son crown prince mohammed bin salman offer more. I'm joined by bill. Law a middle east analyst and editor of arab digest and a regular voice on twenty. Good morning bill your morning. Let's examine straight away. What do we know that was in this. Coal between the us president the saudi king issues that perhaps saudi doesn't really want to talk about. What actually what's interesting about. The call is that the president touched on three issues. One was human rights. Any specifically single Jane elliott loon. The women's rights activist. Who has been released from prison but still has a severe restrictions on her The second is warned. Yemeni americans have made clear that they want this war to end and the third was security reassuring king solomon that america has saudi arabia's back. And of course that is important particularly given the situation with iran and mr biden's desire to return to the jcp away and interestingly as well his secretary of state tony blinken conversation with his counterpart flies. Open fought hand the saudi foreign secretary. He said pretty much the same thing. He didn't mention the. Jane elliott little but he talked about human rights. He talked about yemen and he talked about security. So the question is is these attempts to reassure as well as depress on the fronts. That biden wants action on or is this basically setting things up for this report that will be released and appears to be naming. The king's son magas oman instrumental in the killing of dramatic hollywood v. a everyone waits and most of all i think the saudis holding that brett i think that The in of the relationship between the united states in saudi arabia look. Saudi arabia is a key ally in the middle east for america. I don't know that biden wants to push very very hard in terms of doing down. How hotline as as some have suggested. I do think he wants to see some serious behavioral changes and he's using the issue of human rights as a way of achieving net.
McConnell says he'd support Trump if he wins 2024 nomination
"Hi Mike Rossi a reporting Senate Republican leader McConnell says he'd support former president trump if he wins the twenty twenty four nomination just weeks after saying this president trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the venv a good day Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell says he would absolutely support Donald Trump if trump were to win the Republican presidential nomination in twenty twenty four Connell made his comments on fox news on the eve of the start of the conservative political action conference in Orlando Florida trump will be among the speakers at C. pack but after laying blame on trump for the January sixth attack on the U. S. capitol McConnell will not Mike Rossio Washington
The Conservative Political Action Conference happens every year but 2021 will be different
"In Orlando. It's called CPAC, the conservative political action Conference and with a closer look at this year's gathering, ABC News correspondent Andy Field Andy after losing the White House. What's the tone of the conference going to be this year? Well, the theme is called America On canceled. I think they probably got that from former President Trump, who was none too happy about being canceled by Twitter and Facebook and many other social media Basically, Silencing him on all those platforms after many of his tweets were considered, uh, inciting violence, and many of them in retrospect, appeared to have helped Spark the attack on the U. S. Capitol. So Republicans and certainly the Conservatives of this conservative political action conference are angry about this. They're saying that they're being silenced by liberal media. And they're going to speak out about it, which, ironically will be covered by many of the outlets that they considered to be liberal media. Well, it seems also and maybe on a grander scale. The big task for the Republicans is charting their future and and maybe unifying the party because it seems so at this point, so splintered. Well, it is. There was a survey that came out recently. That said 46% of Republicans would gladly join a new party headed by Donald Trump. In split off from the Republican Party. That's a significant number of Republicans who say they're more loyal to Donald Trump of the party. That's a concern for the rest of the party, and certainly Is going to go play into what this conservative political action conference is all about. This is usually the Super Bowl of folks trying to get attention to say, Hey, look at me. I want to run for president the next time around. Except the leader of that group appears to be the man who just was president and wants to get another shot at it. Let's talk more about the former commander in chief. I see that Donald Trump is on the guest list. What about that? And who else would we know who other famous names are on that list? Andy Well, former Secretary of state Mike Pompeo, who has also released We've heard rumblings that he might want to run for office. But would he do it against Donald Trump? We don't know Other people Tom Cotton Ted Cruz. Josh holy of Missouri. All of expressed some interest in the past or present and even future of trying to get the highest office in the land. So this is really kind of Ah, A tag team elbowing match to see who is going to get the most attention who makes the biggest splash here. And then what will former President Trump say? Well, he ignore what happened at the U. S. Capitol will Hey, talk about where he'd like to see the party will even say, Hey, I'm announcing I'm running again. That's all The mystery involved here, which is what former President Trump likes to do is a former TV host is He's the audience to make sure they tune in. Ted Cruz invited But after what happened
Manhattan District Attorney’s Office in New York Finally Gets Donald Trump’s Tax Returns
"Line from NPR News. I'm Korver Coleman. The Manhattan district attorney's office says it now has copies of some of former President Donald Trump's tax returns. Trump had fought the case up to the Supreme Court, twice trying to keep them private. But this week, the high court rejected his appeal. Manhattan prosecutor wants to give the records to a grand jury to check for potential criminal conduct by Trump's organization. One question is whether hush
Biden lifts Trump-era ban blocking legal immigration to US
"President Biden has lifted a trump era band that kept many legal immigrants out of the U. S. last spring Donald Trump said immigrants were a risk to a U. S. job market wrecked by the virus pandemic and stopped green cards are being issued until year's end a band he then extended through March immigration lawyers say the move blocked most immigrant visas president Biden has lifted the freeze saying blocking legal immigration does not help but rather hurts the U. S. he's also propose legislation that would limit presidential authority to issue future bans against immigrants Sager mag ani Washington
Biden Reopens Gateway For Green Cards, Work Visas
"President Biden has revoked a freeze that former President Donald Trump had placed on new work visas by Biden issued a proclamation Wednesday, saying the freeze on green cards for a new immigrants and visas for tech workers, all pairs and others have prevented families from reuniting in the United States and harm businesses. Trump issued the band last year, saying it was needed to
Biden Reopens Gateway For Green Cards, Work Visas Reversing Trump COVID-19 Freeze
"That President Donald Trump had placed a new work visas as NPR's Tamara Keith reports. Trump head cited the pandemic prompted argued that issuing new skilled labor and temporary work visas during the pandemic would hurt the U. S labor market. And so he ordered a dramatic clamp down on legal immigration. He temporarily halted issuance of green cards for new immigrants as well as visas for tech workers managers, Okay. Years and others in a proclamation revoking that policy. President Biden says it didn't advance the interests of the United States prevented certain family members from joining lawful permanent residents in the U. S and harms industries that rely on talent from around the world. Since taking office, biting his issued a flurry of executive actions reversing Trump era policies. Tamara Keith NPR
Top House Republicans Liz Cheney and Kevin McCarthy publicly clash on Donald Trump
"Some division among House Republicans regarding the role former President Trump should play in the party. House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy was asked a former president Trump should speak at this weekend's conservative political action conference. Yes, Trump is scheduled to speak Sunday afternoon. A decision House Republican Conference chair Liz Cheney says is up to that organization, he says we fell in January, 6 I don't. I don't believe you should be playing a role for the party. But Chaney was one of just 10 Republicans and the only member of leadership to vote in favor of impeaching the former president of House Republicans voted to keep her in her leadership role. Following that vote, Fox's Jared Halpern on Capitol Hill
Genocide, why won't world leaders call it what it is?
"Sounds like term from antiquity. The kind of thing that there might have been an eleventh commandment forbidding it is not the word dates from as recently as nineteen forty four when it was coined by the polish lawyer raphael lampkin to define the holocaust he survived and which dozens of his family did not genocide is also a relatively modern crime though. Humans have fought clan clan tribe on faith on faith and nation or nation for as long as they have been humans. The ambition of completely wiping out an entire bunch of people was substantially thwarted for most of history by the limits of technology. They are arguably cases to be made for rome's destruction of coffee in one hundred and forty six bc and athens conquest of mills to hundred and seventy years before that but the industrialization of extermination is in general and as raffaelle lincoln recognized name modern blights pilot. And i think that's the spirit. The unanimous bill family the biscuit behind by all allstate ratified mile parliaments at the earliest date inaudible advised acumen rights. Forgive given the protection of international law for the sake of progress and international. Lincoln's legacy is the un's nineteen forty eight convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide and the row continuing unto the present day over what genocide means who is entitled to accuse him of committing it. And what should be done about it if someone has this week. Canada became the second country to officially describe china's repressions of it's largely muslim week minority as genocide. Well after a fashion though the motion passed parliament. Two hundred and sixty six votes to zip canada's prime minister justin trudeau and most of his cabinet sat out. The motion was put forward by the conservatives. Who called on the liberals to send a united message about human rights. The vote was non-binding although it was backed by all opposition parties and some members of trudeau's own liberal party with the pragmatism or cowardice or a bit from column a and a bit from column be this abstention highlights the reason that governments are often pretty reticent about accusing anybody else of genocide. The convention on genocide does not merely oblige signatories to not commit genocide. It obliges them to act if someone else does. It's right there in article one. The contracting parties confirmed that genocide where the committed in time of peace or in time of war is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish the trouble with invoking. The g word is that it implicitly summons an assumption of accompanying action which puts into context the motivations of the first country to accused china genocide against the week as the united states in the very lost hours of president. Donald trump's term so possibly laissez noble statement of principle and more the diplomatic equivalent of sewing prunes into the curtains vixen incoming tenant although intriguingly president joe biden's administration has thus far stood by the declaration. We're going to stop the chinese from their actions. We should be gone to the un immediately and so at sanctions against them in the united nations. For what they did. We have to be firm. We don't have to go to war but we have to make it clear. This is as far as you go. China the difficulty is that stopping the genocide very often necessitates confronting the people committing it and this can be risky expensive and difficult to sell to voters whose interest in the travails of people in place. They couldn't point to on globe cannot be taken for granted. This is the conundrum that to site. One inglorious example lead to the us administration of president bill clinton wintering squeamishly about act of genocide in rwanda in nineteen ninety-four had the us formally called the acts of genocide. An actual genocide questions might have been asked about why words were not being accompanied by the eighty second airborne
Examining the media coverage of the Trump investigation
"Is the media midweek. Podcast i'm bob garfield and it was a tough monday morning for one guy. Been waiting on this decision since the middle of october and now the middle of february. We're finally getting this decision from the supreme court they are saying that the manhattan district attorney cy. Vance can in fact get to former president. Donald trump's tax returns. This is something that has been playing out in the courts for more than a year. Now that there is an oldie but a goodie the intriguing prospect of an allegedly rule breaking tax dodging constitution shredding president on riled prosecutors and fulton county georgia have launched a criminal investigation into former president. Trump's january phone call with the georgia secretary of state where he told secretary reference burger to quote fine. Vote lean. while new york's attorney general is investigating whether or not the trump organization misled investors by inflating assets. We should probably expect that. There will be charges filed against him that he will be indicted on. This case will probably go to trial. I think there's an excellent chance that he will be found guilty and if he is found guilty. There's an excellent chance he'll wind up in prison. Yeah not so fast. Late last year in the new york review writer lawyer and former federal prosecutor uncooked kadoorie reviewed the various arguments including his own ford. The prosecution of donald trump elsewhere he had characterized such as quote insane among his critics. One too many former prosecutors himself included represented in the commentariat to too few defense attorneys. Who know how to find holes in any complex case and three as he told brooke in december. No one is willing to say. We just can't know. I guess it's not a great way to get twitter. Followers or cable news hits but it just fundamentally true. There are lots of things we don't know and facts could change. And you know it's very rare that anyone saying that which brings us back to august. Virus vans says painter last year to door shebang as part of its investigation into president. Trump's business dealings time says. The bank complied with that subpoena. When that news broke a lot of people were strongly suggesting there might be a bank fraud case. What the manhattan. Da is looking at here is overstating the value of your assets to get loans understating the value of your assets when it comes tax time that kind of thing is straightforward textbook fraud. It's much easier for prosecutors to prove those kind of charges. Well just compare the two and then you know. He's in huge trouble. If they're not the same a bunch of people were. This is not just a bunch of people but a bunch of prominent former prosecutors with significant followings on twitter and cable news contributor gigs i was just really taken aback because i founded the fundamentally very misleading basically said. The speculation was insane. That you've done this at doj and it's simply not how fraud investigations are conducted. That is the word used in the wall street journal insane in particular about the suggestion that had been made by former acting solicitor. General under obama. And you'll cut. You'll i think it's totally possible for all of this to come out before the twenty twenty election in terms of new york's prosecutors getting this information on in acting on it and so that was really surprising to be coming from someone who is at least supposed to know better. According to convicted trump lawyer michael cohen trump inflated his assets when it was opportunities so deflated them when that was profitable. And if cohen is right. Doesn't that mean that a prosecutor could just compare one accounting book with another. Find the mismatch numbers. And you know it's over. No i mean. It's a very reasonable supposition. But when you're investing financial fraud case the fact that some documents some numbers may differ from one set to another is often. Just the start of a case you have to figure out why they differ doesn't matter why they differ who prepared them if their lawyers accountants and auditors involved. What did they have to say about. The relevant figures trump did not have a huge business. Right this is something. That i think david farrell hold at the post has been very good at illustrating for the public. Ns fairly small organization but that organization still had lawyers had an accountant. That is going to substantiate complicate any investigation if the lawyers overstepped and they can't prove that this was a conspiracy with which trump was involved. Then he's not liable that's correct. We don't even really know what trump's involvement was in the preparation of any of these figures that would be the crucial question. You'd want emails if they exist and of course he notoriously email. You'd want to know whether he had spoken to people and provided with them potentially with oral instructions now in the case of cohen. That is what he says right. That trump instructed people to falsify these figures but he's not a great witness is not a great witness at all. So you would want people to corroborate that you'd want much more than michael cohen. Ideally
Tiger Woods is 'awake, responsive and recovering' after car crash and emergency surgery
"Woods. Car accidents of your injury spread Tuesday. There was plenty of outpouring of love and support all across the sports world, including Noted Tiger golfing partner from time to time former President Donald Trump. Well, I was really surprised and near, he's doing so well. He's getting the back in shape, and then a thing like this happens. He's had a big problem is, you know with his back for a long period of time, and and he's been working on that, and then he has this happen. It's just tragic of courtesy of Fox News, According to a statement released on what's Twitter account, the 45 year old had multiple open fractures to his lower right leg. He had a rod placed in his tibia and screws and pins inserted in his foot and ankle during an emergency surgery last night. The Nuggets
Chinese official calls for 'joint efforts' in China-US trade
"The commerce minister for China has appealed to the US to get the trade relationship back on track when when tau gave no indication when powerful talks might resume whether Beijing might offer concessions but he urged the joint efforts to improve the economic and trade relations in a news conference wins house at the interests of both sides so deeply integrated corporation will benefit both while confrontation can enhance cooperation is the only correct choice president Joe Biden has yet to announce a strategy for dealing with Beijing however many expect him to keep up the pressure on trade that was prompted by his predecessor Donald Trump I'm Karen Thomas
Romney says Trump would win GOP nomination 'in a landslide' in 2024
"Alright Senator Mitt Romney, one of the more outspoken anti Trump Republicans in the party right now, says former President Donald Trump will end up winning the GOP presidential nomination in 2024 if he run. No kidding yes. During a New York Times event on Tuesday, Romney said. That Trump will likely continue to be very involved in the future of the Republican Party. Here's what he had to say. Well, well. President Trump continue to play a role in my party. I'm sure you will. He has by far the largest voice and a big impact in my party. I don't know about his family members whether they intend to do that, but but I expect he will continue playing a role. I don't know if he'll run in 2024 not but if he does Yeah, I'm pretty sure he will win the nomination. You think he would win the nomination? Oh, I think you'd win the nomination. If you run. I mean, what can happen between now and 2024. So on I'm not great at predicting I'm I subscribe the Yogi Berra's philosophy in that regard, he said, I don't like that. I don't like predicting particularly the future's involved. So I I don't really know what'll happen there. But I look at the polls in the polls show that among the names being floated his potential contenders in 2024. If you put President Trump in there among Republicans, he wins in a landslide. I would not be voting for President Trump again. I haven't voted for him in the past on, I would probably be getting behind somebody who I thought more represented the tiny wing of the Republican Party that I
Woods faces hard recovery from serious injuries in car crash
"I'm Julie Walker in a career field with remarkable comebacks this maybe Tiger Woods toughest recovery of all a statement on woods Twitter accounts as the golfer was awake responsive then recovering after his SUV hit a sign and toppled down an embankment near LA the deputy who found him says he's lucky to be alive and police say there's no evidence he was impaired woods broke his leg in several places and injured his foot and ankle thoughts and prayers have come from everywhere Jack Nicklaus Michael Jordan Mike Tyson and former presidents Barack Obama and Donald Trump woods played golf with both of them in trouble awarded him the presidential medal of freedom after his great triumph winning the masters after four back surgeries I'm Julie Walker
Trump to attend GOP's spring donor retreat
"Trump is scheduled to speak at the cpac conference on sunday while americans go about living their lives. Political reports trump is expected to attend the rnc upcoming spring donor. Retreat in april quote. The rnc's donor. Retreats are a prime stop for future presidential candidates who use the events to establish relationships with wait for it. Major contributors Back with us tonight. Abc veteran washington journalists and associate editor and columnist over a real clear politics and matthew. Dowd he is the founder of country over party. We should point out. He is a texan. Who has a new appreciation for a hot shower. Since the cold dark outage of late and in the past matthew was chief strategist for the bush. Cheney presidential effort Back in oh four Welcome to you both. Ab you right with your usual candor and clarity quote just six weeks. After a deadly insurrection against the us government republicans are past their horror and hopping eagerly back on the trump train. The new twenty twenty one ticket price. They must buy into his big lie. That brings us to the question a. b. if trump is the banner under which they all must run under which they all must try to raise money he lost. How can that be a winning strategy. Whatever he says goes so you saw that. Nothing made it more clear than the house. Gop whip steve scalise going on tv. The sunday after his visit mar-a-lago where apparently they just talked about their families and how chill and relaxed. The president has been in his post presidency period at his resort and he just could not bring himself to say that this was a free and fair election. He said yes. Legitimately biden one when he was pressed by jonathan karl of abc news because elector said that on december fourteenth basically. He said a lot of sing. Swing states just didn't follow their own state laws and a lot of people are very concerned so what you do is instead of spreading the big lie. You never defy trump. You never disavow it and you never spell it you sit and you never discuss. How pernicious and dangerous. It is liz cheney and adam her and others have you just sort of try to circle around it because quote your constituents buy into it. And that's what's gonna keep you in trump's orbit if you want to keep your job in twenty twenty two. Matt voters have a funny way of kind of market testing ideas on their own and figuring out what. And what's gonna fly. How is this gonna fly especially in republican tightly contested suburban races two years from now. Well i think it does well in republican primaries. So i think that's the issue and that's the real problem for the republicans right now. They know that. Donald trump tests eighty eighty five percent popularity among the voters at will participate in republican primaries even in republican primaries in purple states or in suburban districts. That are swing districts. The problem is every time they venture into capturing that republican primary voth it more and more offense the people in the general election so it gets okay in a red state or deep red district to do that but when you start to try to win in suburban areas around houston suburban areas around dallas suburban areas in michigan suburban areas in california. It becomes exceedingly problematic. An i think that's the problem there in though it doesn't seem like they're in any way trying to confront that general election problem that they just keep pushing that often it's somehow they think is going to solve itself. It's almost as if they're going through this primary. They did in two thousand fifteen in twenty sixteen where they thought that donald trump problem would salve itself or he would peter out or nobody would deal within or somebody else would handle it and they didn't have to and then what they ended up having donald trump the republican nominee and then donald trump the republican president and now donald trump the republican president. So i do think it's his party. I don't think there's any question anymore that it's donald. The drill pay party is now the trump party and everything that donald trump does from town to what he cares about to. The conspiracy pushes is the republican party.
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Something for rudy to think about how you're right. That's absolutely right on. In fact if i had a magic wand the first thing i would have happened in washington is for congress to get its subpoena power in order. It has inherent contempt powers. No one knows how far those reach. They should be enacting into law. They've got the control of both houses and the white house taking dopp it so they actually can effectively hold investigations. And that's that's something that should have happened yesterday and they should be devoting every bit of attention. They have all the committees to being able to actually get witnesses and force them to testify. So joe biden. Did a town hall on tuesday and he said i don't. I'm tired of talking about donald trump. I wanna talk about him anymore. But what do you make of that and can biden play an appropriate unnecessary role as an agent of accountability. If he's simultaneously sort of operating with the goal of trying to push trump out of the spotlight well if if you recall what he did after making that statement it is news conference. He's turned around and started talking about trump. I if we if we try to sweep trump under the rug and try to ignore him. It will only compound the circumstances in situations. He's left us and these things to be addressed I can appreciate why biden doesn't want them addressed but if they don't address them they will haunt us. There was some of that toast. Watergate were jerry. Ford one of the recent he pardoned. Nixon was to make it disappear because he was getting lots of questions about This document that document. What should be revealed shouldn't be revealed. And he said god. I'm just sick of this. And it just messing my ability to govern. Well that's true and part of the reasons that we have. Trump is not everything was cleaned up During nixon many of the issues that came up when you had another president who didn't wanna play by the rules was the rules hadn't all been established and set up. Some of it was as left as norms. What seemed appropriate. What was inappropriate. But some of those could have well. If they'd have continued pursuing them have ended up as laws and made it much more difficult for trump to undertake the activities. He did I'm one who thinks it'll be a disastrous mistake. If we don't look hard it went from did because he is a threat to democracy. If you're advising biden what would you tell them about how he should balance his positive vision. His desire to govern with these More trump said trick questions of truth in disclosure and and protecting democracy. I'd advise him to just keep governing as he is doing right now. And let the media and the public deal with these other issues and trump. It's not gonna go away if trump is invited in georgia. Do you think that the news media is going to ignore it that day. Of course not. They can't now people are interested. It's why why there exists to report this kind of thing. And i think that biden has what he's got to do is explain to people that we need to get this kind of behavior out of our system and we need to take people who think this is acceptable heavier and get them back under rocks where they'd live for so long and that's about as far as they should be advanced In a modern democracy final question have you ever thought about what the world would look like. If forty five years ago you had not gone public. The republican party had decided to protect nixon at all costs. He had not resigned. He survived his impeachment And congress had not passed post-watergate reforms. Where would that have led to a very unhealthy place Democracy as we know it would probably be long gone Democracy is something has to constantly be attended to it. it doesn't work automatically if you have a dominant interest that is cheating to control the system That doesn't work so well for those who play by the rules. Nixon was somebody who didn't play by the rules He was not anywhere near as bad as donald trump however to it's gotten worse and by ignoring it we will again Lived to regret it. I'll leave it there. Then john dean. Thank you for your time and your insight. My pleasure keep sending us. Your questions are email is rubicon at crooked dot com listener. Michael writes in. What is the responsible way for the dem's to exploit fractures in the gop without inadvertently raising the profiles of extreme right-wing primary challengers. This is always a tough balance to strike and it doesn't always work out. Well the theory is that more. Extreme candidates have a harder time winning statewide or national elections. So if you can coax your opposition into nominating someone from the fringes. You stand a better chance of winning in the end and more often than not. That theory is true. It worked out great for dams in the twenty twelve missouri senate race when incumbent democrat claire mccaskill helped elevate the profile of the most right wing. Republican senate candidate running. Gop primary a guy named todd aken who wants to claim that women will miscarry pregnancy stemming from rape but only if the rape is quote unquote legitimate. Republicans nominated him and he lost years later. Democrats even want a special senate election in the deep deep. South state of alabama after republicans nominated nasty racist and accused sexual predator named roy moore to their ticket but they tried the same thing. In the two thousand sixteen cycle on much larger stage when a seemingly unelectable guy named donald trump entered the republican presidential primary and well ultimately though the fact that republicans have become so extreme. Isn't democrats fault and the responsibility for the consequences of that extremism lies with the people and institutions in and around the gop who intentionally radicalized their supporters with lies and propaganda for power and profit. Rubicon is written and hosted by me brian. Boiler it's produced by andrew gardner bernstein broncos. Cincinnati is our audio engineer. Production support from brian. Semel thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Won't last as norms right i was gonna say if if the lawyers who are involved in the trump years Go back to practicing law just like nothing happened and these norms aren't codified than it just seems like democrats can respect the the old norms for four or eight years and then we'll just be right back where we started. That's right and some states. now where rudy. Giuliani and sydney powell went around with their outrageous. Cases to perpetuate trump's big lie that he'd won by a landslide. Question is will the bar associations do anything and that's going to be a test right now If they don't the legal profession has taken a dive if they do start actually enforcing the the codes of ethics They're going to be some lawyers and a lot of trouble coming up the other tools of accountability commissions committees censures and subpoenas which of these have teeth and don't require republican votes. We'll get into that when we return. Rubicon is brought to you by carew. The sustainable sneaker brand creating cool searcy comfortable kicks in a way. That's better for you. And the planet demand for their sneakers was so high that the waiting list topped out more than twenty thousand. But they're finally back in stock and available in a new water repellent high top style. The behi- the is super lightweight in one hundred percent vegan made from bamboo sugarcane and recycled plastics. You know the feeling of walking barefoot in the grass design their insoles to feel just like that cushioned with sustainable core memory foam and ramona for all natural comfort. This is great for all shoe wearing people. But i want to emphasize especially to my fellow. Flat-footed listeners. That these insoles hold up really well so the shoes are comfortable and durable while maintaining sleek low profile style and sustainability. Go hand in hand with that includes partnering with ethical factories using low impact natural materials and even designing their own single box carbon neutral shipping program for every pair of sneakers. Sold pair of trees will be planted in the brazilian rainforest. Homed over sixty percent of the amazon's ecosystem endangered species carry much ships free and fast in the usa and offers worldwide shipping. Sixty day. free returns they. You single box recycled packaging for a carbon neutral delivery to your front door and crooked listeners can get an exclusive fifteen percent off your first pair of karema sneakers. Good a. c. a. r. m. a. dot com slash rubicon to get fifteen percent off that c. a. r. i. u. m. a. dot com slash rubicon for fifteen percent off. Today rubicon is brought to you by hellofresh. Hellofresh cuts out stressful meal planning grocery store trips. So you can enjoy cooking and get dinner on the table in about thirty minutes or less. Eating healthier has never been easier with locale carbs. Smart vegetarian and pestering options every week. Every single recipe is packed with fresh produce. Sourced directly from farmers hellofresh is particularly useful. If your partner is in the kitchen but you want to contribute to the cooking's well that is. If you're like me my shipment. This week included firecracker meatballs with roasted carrots and sesame. Rice port canada's top with pickled onion and monterey jack in boston tomato and herb chicken over buttery garlic spaghetti i was able to cook all three and hold up my end of the bargain in between thirty and forty minutes. A dish hellofresh offers over twenty three recipes featuring a range of flavors cuisines and ingredients. So you'll never get bored. Try something new every week. Hellofresh selection of delicious atoms getting bigger and better every week featuring quick breakfast lunches proteins savory size and crave desserts go to hellofresh dot com slash rubicon ten and use code rubicon ten for ten free meals including free shipping. That's hellofresh dot com forward slash rubicon one zero and code rubicon one zero for ten free meals including free shipping hellofresh. America's number one meal kit rubicon is brought to you by super coffee. Super coffee is the healthy delicious alternative to sugary coffee drinks starbucks rapid pacino's and other iced coffee and energy drinks super copies made to power your entire day with its unique combination of caffeine healthy fats and protein the provide stained jitter free energy with no crash. Did you know starbucks rap. Pacino has fifty two grams of sugar and three hundred and seventy calories. That's starting your day with a double cheeseburger. Super coffee is justice. Delicious as a frappuccino but contains zero grams of sugar. Ten protein and only eighty calories per bottle. It's also kid friendly lactose free gluten. Free super copies bestseller is there. Bottled coffees but they also make tasty candidates bresso's coffee creamer and ground coffee. I discovered super coffee three trainer at my gym about two or three years ago. And keep a stash of regular and mocha bottles on hand for midday pick-me-ups but the candidate our game changer. For those of you who want something with a little more kick and a little less volume. Super coffee was recently named the fastest growing food and beverage brand in america by inc magazine. Super coffee has a sixty day. Money back guarantee. Meaning if you don't love it you get your money back. No questions asked. We've worked out an exclusive deal for rubicon podcast listeners. Receive twenty five percent off your entire purchase. If you're new to super coffee. I recommend one of their bestselling variety packs or bundles as a great way. Try all of their delicious flavors to claim this deal. Good at drink super coffee dot com slash rubicon or use code rubicon at checkout super copies. Also available nationwide over twenty five thousand stores like target whole foods walmart kroger. nc cbs. welcome back to rubicon. my guest. this week is john dean. You probably know best. As richard nixon's white house counsel who turned on nixon and became a star witness in the watergate hearings. But he's since become a vocal critic of the republican party. We're talking about democrats can end. Must hold the trump administration accountable even if they don't seem to have the stomach for it. So after disposing of the trial democrats announced that they will create or at least try to create an independent nine. Eleven style commission to investigate the capital insurrection. Is that the proper next step in your mind. It is an important step. What this really means to me is not getting revenge against trump. it's educating the american people about what the hell he was doing how dangerous he and his followers are how corrosive is to democracy. And if we don't deal with it what it's gonna do to the country and the first thing that sort of established watergate was the name As bob haldeman nixon's chief of staff told me during watergate he said know john watergate's kinda like teapot dome. It's a catchy name. So the first thing to get through to the public is for that name to to attach and that this is why and this is why. The post watergate reforms weren't just about well. Nixon resigned so we don't have to worry about another crooked president and we can just move on. They had reforms the church committee in the and and various laws that they passed the reformed a bunch of how intelligence was shared with. Congress is because watergate wasn't about just the the break in at the watergate hotel it was about a whole strata of malfeasance underneath that that most people don't remember today but that's why.
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Senators america we need to exercise our common sense about what happened. Let's not get caught up in a lot of outlandish lawyers theories here exercise. Your commonsense have which just took place in our country. There was a moment last saturday. The final day of the second impeachment trial of donald trump when it seemed like the reckoning republicans plainly. Fear was coming. We would like the opportunity to subpoena congressman harare regarding her communications with house. Minority leader. kevin mccarthy we'd be prepared to proceed by zoom deposition of an hour or less. That's jamie raskin. Maryland congressman and a house democrats serving as chief manager or prosecutor for the impeachment trial after the main presentation phase. It ended raskin. Shot the senate by requesting the power to subpoena witnesses and documents and make republicans pay even greater political price for voting to quit the man responsible for the january six insurrection. We know republicans were scared because they absolutely lost their shit. None of these depositions should be done by zoom. These depositions should be done in person in my office in philadelphia. That's where they should be done. That's civil process. I don't know why you're laughing. It is civil when a bipartisan majority of senators agreed to raskin's requests. I thought to something ruth. Ben yet told me on last week's show. Transparency is about showing respect and for the people. You are governing. It's it's a form of humility. it's showing respect for accountability. Because if you don't have an accounting of past practices history shows that people will do the same thing and more then seemingly for no reason at all democrats balked they wanted to call republican congresswoman jaime herrera butler to testify fifty. Five senators voted to hear witnesses. Then after all that the senate decided not to call witnesses what happened. Why vote yourself the power to expose trump more thoroughly than ever before on the biggest stage imaginable and then not use it. It was a low moment and a decision. The biden white house at some level must have supported so now we're left to wonder. Can there be a do over and a party. That surrendered a golden opportunity to tighten the vise of accountability on trump even want one after voting to acquit trump. Senate minority leader. Mitch mcconnell suggested that trump might still face civil or criminal liability for things he did as president would biden's justice department. Go for it on monday house speaker. Nancy pelosi announced the congress will establish a nine eleven style commission to investigate the instruction. Will it have the power. It needs to fully expose. Trump's roll can.
OA464: Impeachment 2 Secret of the Ooze
"From a podcast. Hello and welcome to opening arguments. This is episode. Four hundred and sixty four. I'm thomas and that is andrew. How are you sir. I am prepared to go forward with it. I am here. Live and i am not a cat. And we got that posted at us a few times a few. Yes we saw it. You can sending it to us now. That was funny. Let's go oh man. We got some not only a great episode today. Andrew trump free episode on tuesday. Yeah somebody said this. I think during one of our qna's orbits basically like hey you know trump's no longer in office so we can we look forward to things that aren't you know that don't even remotely deal with donald trump and absolutely so i'm going to bring you. The story of how one union is trying to unionize the second largest employer in the united states that has been entirely union free for its entire history despite the fact that Internationally all of its employees are unionized. So super cool story. I'm really really excited. I did a lot of work on it. You'll learn about the national labor relations act it is a classic away style deep dive and And i can't wait to bring that to you. Yeah we just the problem is we gotta clean. All the trump off the ceilings in the kravis. You know there's a lot of trump we got just got. There's a lot to deal with and then eventually once we scrub all that out. We won't have trump anymore and stuff. Hopefully maybe murkowski thinks that. There's no reason trump whatever be elected again andrew. So i think we're fine. We don't need to do anything else. Yeah was learned zero lessons from the past. Five years checked. I i you know. At least it is susan collins saying yeah i i think he's chastened and has learned his lesson. Yeah i wonder if susan collins was like man. she's really creeping in on my lane. I gotta find countless something even more historically ignorant to say well anyway trump fee tuesday. I can't wait what's going on. I forty five this week. We broke down the initial brief that was filed by Donald trump and talked about Where we thought that might go on. Tuesday which kind of turned out to be correct and So if you would like to hear me making fun of the trump legal teams unbelievably terrible arguments on the process then guinot go ahead listened to To this week's off forty five. What's what's up at us. I l i had a very special. Someone rescheduled so but that upsets rate next week. But i'll take this opportunity to say Checkout philosophers in space doing. I think we're on qna's this was a little weird because we do the patrons or few weeks ahead but anyway it's a fun show philosophy fun hypotheticals all that stuff. Check it out. I really do love that show. It is it is so much fun. It is very different than a lot of what we do here and And that's part of what's great about it. Thanks very much. We've got to get going. There's too much andrews too much to talk about. We're going to try to come here. We go. Joe biden will become the forty.
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"O. r. i c. s. dot com slash rubicon. This episode of rubicon is brought to you by the sustainable sneaker brand creating cool seriously comfortable kicks in a way that is better for you and the planet you look at their sneakers and thank pretty classic. Old school. bakara is on a new school wave with their ecoconscious sneakers. Designed with premium natural materials plus for every pair sold a pair of trees planted in the brazilian rainforest in support of reforestation efforts. These new trees will help protect. Sixty percent of brazil's endangered species of animals and plants. Sneakers had a waiting list of more than sixteen thousand. But they're finally back in stock and available in a new water repellent high top style. The high miami's are great to wear around the house but will be even better when we can all put on our best clothes and socialize safely in person again. The e b is one hundred percent vegan made from perfect stretch. Bamboo knit shirt kane and recycled plastics. They feel lighter than air without sacrificing comfort. Every pair comes cushioned with you. Misinter- insoles made from cork memory phone and mamone oil ships free and fast in the us and offers worldwide shipping and sixty day. free returns. They you single box recycled packaging for carbon neutral delivery. Straight to your front door and crooked listeners can get an exclusive fifteen percent off their first pair of carryover sneakers go to see a r. i u. m. a. dot com slash rubicon to get fifteen percent off that's c. a. r. i. u. n. a. dot com slash rubicon for fifteen percent off today..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Like how people interpret that for all the political violence we have in have had. We have been blessed in this country. Despite big disagreements with like for the last forty fifty years like they're just that kind of thing has not been part of how we expect the public to respond to being defeated politically. Is they'll start killing senators or judges or wherever yes right. yes and. that's i feel like the spooky part of this that when i see republicans aside out you know we can live with four dead people five dead people in the and one hundred million dollars worth of damage in the capital and we'll just move on and pretend it never happened is that it's like okay. Well that just means let's figure out what what else they'll tolerate ya at. That's that's the really dark thing is like what what would change their mind. What would have had to happen on january six for there to be sixty seven to to convict. That's dark thought experiment. The let me just say the let me hop onto the other side and say the following things i think are on the other side. Alleger one. is that like democrats. Win this improbable. Incredible victory in control of the senate right. Joe biden did win by seven million votes like there is again for the first time in american history. One party won seven out of eight popular votes. In presidential elections. There is it is hamstrung majority. But there is this majority in the country that is on the side of both sort of a centre-left majority but but more importantly kind of pro democracy majority and the pro-democracy majority i think is even probably bigger than those votes. I think that there's a way in which i think the capital riot and the spectacle of were radicalizing in the opposite direction. We're repellent to a lot of people like so if you think of it as like the popular front right like spanning the noam chomsky to bill kristol people invested in the continuance of american multiracial democracy as such. That is the. There's more of us than there are of them. And and we're on we're right substantively and we have more people and and that gives me hope you know i. You know w- there are places where the majority's on the side of the bad guy that's when it gets that's when it gets really really dark. Yeah and a try to tie this. Because i did ask this because i do think it ties into the cova question and i think that there's a prevailing hope that if biden really executes. His corona virus response. Well that democrats will be rewarded politically. And it'll solve or at least defer some of these democracy problems right that like if democrats have been rewarded for governing well in the face of pandemic don't win elections and we don't have to worry about things like the electoral college gerrymandering or whatever else and i'd like to say i believe that But the baseline. I carry it around for like the first ten years of my career. That good policy is good politics and the economic fundamentals kind of rule. Everything has been pretty badly shaken by the last several years. And i hope that there are people in positions of influence who realized that this kind of vid reductionism or cova determinism or whatever you wanna call it the get this right and everything else will fall into place. Given the prevailing state of the republican party is a huge risk. Yes i mean the way that i've come to think of it is that doing the right thing is necessary to political success for probably not sufficient. That if you don't if you don't do a good job governing your screw for sure so you might as well do a really good job help. People and hope for the best but but the idea that that will transmit automatically into political victories. I think has been a little untethered. I mean the people point. Florida where the minimum wage thing got sixty percent and one and biden loss state. And it's like well if democrats remorse essentially committed things. I've been in ways. They do better. And i think there's i think there's some argument there. I think we saw it with like the checks discourse down the stretch for knocking off hand. Those are two different things whether people should get paid when wage and which people are in control are different votes and it may be the case that there's an there is not a widening gap between how people think of those two things like i want. My people in control is a more important driving question for a lot of people then like what they will do when they get there. And if if we can get the minimum wage by referendum. Maybe you don't need that other parties so much another point. I'll leave it there. But i'll close by saying i'm really grateful that you are where you are covering these issues the way you're covering them And thanks for spending all this time with us. Yeah that was great. Thanks a lot brian. thanks man. email. Chris a different. Chris sent the following question. I understand the frustrations of mitch. Mcconnell using and threatening the filibuster for everything under the sun however if it was removed couldn't he use it to pass lots of harmful legislation in the future if republicans win the senate again similar to how they use the nuclear option. That harry reid invoked to push through countless conservative judges. Would it be better to make them. Actually use the filibuster and make them stand there and talk. I worry a lot about what harm. Republicans can do if they have a senate majority with no filibuster. Here are few thoughts in response. I if republicans win big and a future election much as we might hate it and oppose it and try to discourage it. They should be able to implement their agenda salons. It's constitutional that's how democracy works and to great extent. Republicans already get to do this. Their top priorities are cutting taxes and stacking the courts with conservative judges neither of those things subject to the filibuster and when democrats tried to filibuster a republican supreme court nominee in two thousand seventeen. Mitch mcconnell just got rid of it but a lot of things. Democrats and progressives care about like civil rights laws are subject to the filibuster that means abolishing. It won't make life much easier for republicans than it already is and we have recent history to back that up there. Twenty seventeen effort to repeal the affordable. Care act failed. Not because of the filibuster. They tried to go around the filibuster. It failed because they couldn't get fifty votes for their bill. They were hobbled politically by the unpopularity of their agenda. Now that doesn't mean the filibuster couldn't be reformed rather than abolished as it stands. A single republican can hold a bill to a sixty vote threshold simply by raising his hand. Democrats try to change the rules to make that threshold apply only so long as a minority holds the floor and keeps talking to jimmy stewart way but then pass their bills by simple majority when the filibuster loses steam. That may in fact be where we're headed. Please continue sending us. Your questions are email addresses. Rubicon at crooked dot com rubicon is written and hosted by me brian. Boiler it's produced by andrew gardner bernstein. Veronica simonetti is our audio engineer. And we'll be back next week..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Susan Susan Hennessy. Welcome to Rubicon. Thanks for having me. So we're at a bit of a disadvantage in that. We're recording this episode on Thursday but the key vote on whether we're going to have anything anything like a fair trial in the Senate for Donald Trump's impeachment won't happen until Friday and we may not even know how that vote is going to shake out until it actually happens so for the purposes of this conversation I wanNA focus for the most part on the proposition. Trump and his lawyers have put forth and how Republicans in particular Picula have reacted to it because it bottom Republicans seem prepared to accept it whether there are witnesses or not at eventually. The story ends without sixty seven votes to remove Donald Trump from office. How would you characterize the proposition that that? They're preparing themselves to affirm mm-hmm so nobody ever wants to be considered naive in this town. And so I say this with with a risk of being proven wrong in pretty rapid order. I'm still just refuse to believe that the Senate would actually be willing to not even call John in Bolton as a witness because that would be an expression that impeachment is not a genuine constitutional remedy. It's not a real check on executive give power it's just a raw measurement of how many members of the president's own party sit in the Senate and I think what we're seeing play out right now. I'm is the terrible terrible choice. The Republican senators have created for themselves because on one hand they want to be perceived as you undertaking. A legitimate should image investigation a legitimate trial. Even though they know full well that they intend to quit the president at the end of this and and of course I think something like seventy five percent of Americans say `I I they believe that additional witnesses should be called. I'm but the senators have a really big problem because John Bolton has come out and he's said I have a story to tell and it's really bad and it shatters a lot of the implausible deniability that you've been clinging to an. I'm going to tell that story eventually. I'm gonNA tell it in a book. I'm going to tell it in an interview. This this story is coming out and so what Republican Senators have to decide is do they want to be confronted with that story under oath and then have to actually cast a vote wrote not a furrowed brow in a Senate hallway. Not a disapproving tweet about being gravely concerned but an up or down. Vote on the question of whether or not this is acceptable. Whether or not this tolerable and I think if we get down to it and the balance of fears between between Senate Republicans of being perceived perceived as a not undertaking legitimate investigation versus the consequence of undertakings illegitimate investigation. I think that's the anguish that we're seeing. I'm playing out right now I continue to think I too hope that there will be four senators who realized that this is just not not that this that this impeachment trial simply would not be perceived as legitimate by the American public. If John Bolton doesn't come to testify but for the purposes of this recording. I think that we have to you know we're in the dark for the next twenty four hours As to how this is actually going to play out and by the time people listen to this. That question will be answered one way or another Either we're going to be in a world where John Bolton is going to testify or we're going to be in one where this is all gonna and we're going to figure out what his stories later. I just think that whichever happens. There's one more vote after after that. which is a a a quitter convict and even today? I think I count enough. Republican senators who have essentially said. Even if what Bolton's book is purported to to claim is true. I'm we're just not going to convict trump and so if we just Liba ahead to the assumption that he's acquitted what do you interpret Republicans to be saying by having acquitted him. Does that make sense. Yeah I interpret Republicans to be saying that it is tolerable. Acceptable for the president of the United States is to use the powers of his office to extort a foreign leader into becoming an opposition researcher for his political campaign. I I would say that these senators senators are voting to say that it is acceptable to have a president and in this really goes sort of the core argument. We loud in this book but a president in who does not view the interests of the office of the presidency as in any way distinct from the interests of the occupant that those are completely completely merged in political interest in financial interests. And and this really goes to the heart of trump's vision of the presidency this sense that the purpose of the presidency she is to serve the president and it serves the public only coincidentally or when convenient or as an afterthought and that isn't a question of you've expanding the edges of executive power the ordinary sort of areas in which we're used to debating limits of presidential power it it goes to the very core and it says that the president can use the these really astonishingly Empowering Authority ordeal that the constitution vests in him. I'm for his own purposes and not on behalf of the country and and if that is true and if the Senate is willing to tolerate hollering that that has long term structural ramifications across lots of different axes and and the Senate may may try to sort of kid themselves by saying. Oh No. We're making a very narrow vote about the nature of this form of an impeachable offense or that form. But but this is a blunt instrument you're either impeaching and removing the president has an or you aren't and so they really are fooling themselves if they don't think that the ultimate statements that they're making is. This is acceptable acceptable and they are accepting. I'm glad you brought up John Bolton for this reason because you're a you could in theory imagine a situation in which for plus Republican senators not enough to convict him but enough to say. There's a real problem here get together and say look like we're not going to there's no reason to To to draw this proceeding indefinitely but we acknowledge something terrible happened here and so we're interested in is in. What can we do as legislators power to say okay? We're not going to remove him from office office but we are going to take some steps to make sure that this doesn't become the norm at least in our Party and censoring him. Yo ramping ramping. Up a regular oversight activities and that's just not in the cart. Nobody's even discussing that as an option Which is why I feel like take the emergence of Bolton and and and what we believe we know he is in his book is so revelatory Is like most trump scandal seem to follow this pattern where he and all of the principals deny whatever their alleged to have done outright. Then say it didn't it didn't happen but if it did happen it wouldn't be so bad and then finally I did it and it was awesome and to me what striking about the role. The boat revelations have played is how how quickly they moved us from step two to step three where where Republicans and trump's lawyers have been kinda stuck saying could pro quos normal but even here Democrats Kratz haven't proved that trump ever explicitly linked Ukraine aid to Sham Biden investigations. Bolton's you know book the details of what's in Bolton's book book come out and he says that's bullshit and actually trump did exactly that almost overnight. We we get to trump and everyone around him kinda claiming dictatorial power to cheat in his own election which leaves no space for any kind of intermediate remedy. Does that make sense. I think it does look. I think what has been happening. Is You know the idea that there were there were senators who And you know in good faith were looking at the the record produced by the House and they saw this evidence and some of it was somewhat troubling. And Gosh Gosh it really does look like the president did one investigations into his political opponent. Joe Biden and his son or at least the announcement of those investigations. And Gosh. It really does look like the President United States frozen military aid to Ukraine and then lied about it in an head why he did it from Congress but shucks. I just don't know how we could possibly tie those. It's two things together. which by the way what people like? Kurt Volker attempted to testify to a while. We knew there was this one bad thing happening knew there. Was this other bad thing happening. But you're telling me see these two bad things were actually about the same thing or it's a whole game has been this completely implausible story. That's how these two things were not connected. And here's John Bolton coming forward and saying they're connected and I can testify to what the president actually said putting both of these things in the exact same sentence and what that does is it pops sort of implausible deniability that we've seen so many actors operating an in bad faith and we should acknowledge that they're pretending right it's not that they actually. They're actually stunned by this new revelation. They're pretending because they know that they eventually are going to vote to quit. The president of the United States and so the problem is is that that now requires a pivot right. You can't just say well. Of course it would be incredibly disturbing if the president tied military aid to abusive investigations nations. Something that Lindsey Graham and many others actually said at the outset of the revelations of this scandal you know but we're not going to call a witness before for the Senate who is who is a person who's imposition actually. Tie those two things together. You can't make that argument plausibly. And so instead you have to move into this really astonishing initiative constitutional argument and and really that is the heart of the argument. The heart of the argument is that the president of the United States is allowed to use the powers of his office for any purpose. He'd like so long as he can articulate at least some rationale for why it was in fact on behalf of the public interest even if there's also a corrupt motive present present and it doesn't matter how how implausible or contradicted by the documentary record. That sort of that rationale of why he was doing on behalf of the public might be so long as you can say something and really what we're talking about here is is a completely unconstrained unconstrained executive an executive that does not need to in fear impeachment and removal and the exercise of his office so long as he knows that the Senate is controlled by members. I have his own party so in researching on making the presidency. Were you struck by any historical examples of the presidency. Changing alarming ways but in ways. That didn't didn't ever stick in hindsight we can kind of say. We dodged a bullet entered. Johnson is probably the best example of this so Johnson actually is impeach although not removed. She's the first president to be impeached. And he's sort of trumpy figure right he's He's a demagogue. He've he allies. He you you know. He insults his political opponents. He's actually one of the articles of impeachment is. It's for the way he speaks and sort of his language. I'm in search for for being a little bit like a like a trump rally actually was one of the articles of impeachment and of course for ignoring the log knowing the constraints of the law ignoring ignoring the The legislature as a CO equal branch. And he's impeached. And it's kind of a blip People talk about Johnson now but but just as a negative example for rape kind of president that you don't WanNa be and so you know.
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Hey Rubicon fans. It's Brian if you're listening to this then hopefully already know that we've just launched a new weekly newsletter here at crooked media. It's called big tent. I write it and my goal is to walk with you through the big debates unfolding among Democrats in real time from the campaign trail to the Senate floor to the most productive venues twitter. And I want to do that because the issues we argue about and how we work them out. We'll both shape the future of the progressive movement we share and probably also help determine whether Donald trump gets a second terminate. The first edition just came out on Friday January thirty first. But you can subscribe today at crooked dot com slash big tent I'm really psyched about this. I hope you sign up and encourage people you know to sign up to China.
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"It's complicated because in ordinary trial. You're completely right that the prosecutor would say and you will hear evidence that one thing. The prosecutor can't do in a trial title because it's not lawful is to say in the opening statement in front of the grand jury the witnesses already said thus and such and so therefore the guy is guilty because you can't in ordinary trial refer to evidence that was gathered outside of the trial. The whole principle of due process of law is that the evidence has to be brought to bear right there in front of the jury. So that's not what happens in ordinary trial at all the prosecutors here. The house managers had no choice but to do that because they may not have a chance to call any witnesses but they did have more leeway than an ordinary prosecutor would because they can refer freely to all of the evidence that was gathered in front of the House House which you could not do it in a criminal trial. The Way I think about all this is that there are signals the Senate can and has in the past provided to indicate to the public. I guess that the trial outcome ref would reflect impartial. Justice like one is through. Consensus is if if senators agree on the trial rules. One hundred zero like they did in the in the Clinton case. That's a pretty strong indication that the Senate believes it's equipped to to render judgment fairly and another. would be like the completeness of the record you know if the question is has it received or sought all the information it needs to make decisions about guilt. Answer's yes that's a pretty strong indication that the public whether they're happy with the outcome or not should treated treated as legitimate. Yeah you're right and I know what you're saying which is completely true and correct raises a really fascinating question to me which is is given that the Republicans in the Senate no they ninety nine percent likelihood have the votes to vote not to remove Donald Trump from office purpose and given that they could get the legitimacy you're describing by having farrow and agreed upon procedure and then listening to the witnesses and then voting. Why aren't they doing it? I mean that really is a hard question and I don't mean to ask that in some. You know purely rhetorical by saying. Why aren't they doing that? I'm trying to force them into doing it. I'm actually asking a genuine question. What is it that they're so concerned about? I mean if John Bolton testifies and says his worst do we. I really think that that's GONNA move enough senators to change the outcome to get us to a two thirds majority necessary to remove Donald Trump. I would be stunned if that were the case. Yes so I mean. Imagine the worst thing that John Bolton can say yes I went into Donald trump and I told him. This violates national security and it's an impeachable offense and he said to me I don't care you know I wanna get reelected Ima- imagine that that was the testimony. Do we really believe that would get us. Two thirds majority of centers. I kind of don't and so I don't don't really understand at a deep level. Why the Senate majority is taking the risk of the whole trial being seen as illegitimate? Unless you think that the the answer is that they are so committed to the idea that the whole process is illegitimate. They're so committed to Donald Trump's narrative. The whole impeachment is as he keeps on saying a hoax. Folks you know fake that they think there's nothing wrong with doing it their way as a hoax and as a fake and then they'll just say yeah well they did a hoax. We did a hoax. I do think that Jr on a cer- like working on a on a completely different plane that there is something important about trying to get Congress to win in this basic question of whether these people have to testify whether these documents have to be produced in an impeachment that's in part about obstruction of Congress that that whether it has any bearing on how the senators ultimately vote or if senators enters ultimately vote to acquit on charges. Anyway I if this process ends with the obstruction both having been You know Attempted and then be having been successful and see he gets acquitted. Anyway that's just a roadmap for future presidents to engage in wholesale cover-ups like this and I mean maybe that's Maybe that's a kind of argument that that the house managers should be making about. Why testimony is important even though there's already enough to convict But that's one thing that's actually worried me about how what's going to happen if they get to the end of all this they Vote not to hear any more witnesses see anymore documents and then quit and then I have you know in a in a trial that was about obstructing congress in part. That's a great point and I'm also worried about that. You know one thing that I have been saying. All along about the obstruction of Congress articles of impeachment is the reason you know that it was appropriate to impeach the president as if Congress starts impeachment inquiry in the present. stonewalls says. I'M NOT GONNA cooperate in the end. The only remedy left that saves us from a presidency. That's completely above. The law is impeachment. Like that's the only thing you can do if you're the house right you say you're gonNA impeach and and the President says I won't cooperate you know you can't go to the courts and compel it not realistically and frankly it's entirely possible that the courts would've said not our problem impeachment is your soul power. Not Ours is an all you can do is to impeach under those circumstances and if you know the president is then nevertheless. LS Not removed from office. It does send that message as you say that the president can just get away with it. And that's very worrisome. For the basic structure basic structure of our government. Some future presence might not want to be impeached and I will say that. The second article of impeachment was unnecessary from the president's perspective. Active he could have fought the individual witnesses one at a time without announcing in that grand way that he did that he wouldn't cooperate in any way and if he had done that he would have escaped that second article of impeachment. So you know that was I would call that an unforced error. I actually think he was an unforced error that should be attributed it at least in parts of the White House counsel who wrote that letter and signed that letter and who is now defending the president so apparently the president doesn't think it was an error because he's relying on the same guy right now to defend him. That's a separate question. Like why is that. Okay but bottom line there is a serious serious danger that if president think they can get away with two stonewalling that the congress congressional power to impeach will just eroded to nothing. Let's let's wind down on on that point because I think think it's right to say this will be the first time the Senate has used it so power to try impeachment to conceal rather than consider evidence period. Right I think so. Oh Yeah I mean. I can't think of any prior example. Where they're where they're not trying to get witnesses not trying to get more information so just taking it as a given that impeachment supporters and Democrats and you know hopefully a growing list of people as time goes on Talk about it that way and try to leave an asterisk next to this trial l.. What will the consequences for the impeachment? Power be going forward or can we even say anything about that before the next election. We'll as you say. The election is hugely significant and we will interpret events in light of that election after the fact even if there's no good hard scientific reason to think they ought to be so. If trump is not removed from office as seems probable and is then reelected right we end the judgement of history will be boy. Impeachment has completely lost the Umph that historically had you know the idea that you know bill. Clinton's legacy was seriously tainted anted by impeachment. The idea that Richard Nixon resigned rather than being a running the risk of being impeached not just removed but but impeach that will look like a a very faint relic of a of a lost time if on the other hand trump is not convicted and then loses in the election even if he would have lost the election anyway. You know people will say well you see. Impeachment is vindicated. Maybe you weren't able to remove the president from office but the taint of impeachment was so significant that it had an impact on the presidential election. And we'LL WANNA tell ourselves that story because we want to legitimate our existing institutions creaky old constitution. You know two hundred and twenty five plus plus years old and there's a way in which you know no other country in the world still runs its affairs in this way since we enacted our Constitution. France has been through five reboots right Francis on what they call their fifth republic. That's their five point. Oh their version. Five point oh of their constitution at a time that we're still stuck doc with basically the same thing although with you know at the reconstruction amendments added in but when it comes to impeach him. We've got the exact same creaky thing we've already had always had and it's possible that it just doesn't work anymore and that's something that's painful but we need to confront that reality. I want to offer you a close on on a happier. Thought of you have on for for listeners. Or if if there's any sort of optimistic side to how you you see these events playing out well there is. There is because right right now whether you and I are speaking. We're we're in the middle of events and I think you know it's appropriate for us to be honest. I think you've been and I'm trying to be also about the genuine threat to structure of our institutions that exists but we are not speaking right now at a point where those institutions are destroyed. You know the president of United States took actions agency that to my mind at least are clearly at the core of what the framers thought should be impeachable and he was impeached. So in that sense offense. The institution is working correctly as we speak. The institution is working correctly in that impeachment occurred. The trial may insert raised illegitimate the non-removal of the president. If that's what happens in certain ways be a legitimate. They're all these problems they're real. We've been talking about them but it remains possible still that our democratic institutions will be robust enough to save us. You Know Donald Trump could lose the next election and then we will be able to tell ourselves with some credibility we got through it. You know our long national nightmare there will then in some way over. We shouldn't be naive about it. Even if that happens we should go back and look at what we can do better but that is still a possible outcome..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"The GAO report that you mentioned earlier. You know this finding finding that yeah the military hold violated the law All of that in a political sense is giving an enormous amount of momentum and I think you know whether it'll break the damn on Senate Republicans holding trump accountable. I mean I still people are pretty pessimistic. But the pressure is just like Ruben. Ratcheted up and ratcheted up. I think way more than had none of this come out in the interim from the time that the articles were voted on and then if they had been transmitted right away I think in the space that was created by Polisi holding them back and the amount of shoes that have dropped in the meantime have you know. Put the pressure on you know just made it feel more urgent and I think for the trump administration must make them feel incredibly really nervous. Because I don't think they know when the next shoe will drop. I think they know what shoes could drop because they know exactly what happened. But they don't know when they'll drop in like for example today Robert Hyde who's this Republican who's running running for Congress in Connecticut who was the one who was texting with I love Parnasse about possibly serving Marie Ivanovich in Ukraine. And you know whether or not they were like contemplating depleting a hit on her as it sounds like but that they've both denied sense His house was raided today by the FBI. So like who knows knows what's coming next is is how I see it i. I'm really glad you put it that way. Because you're scoop underscored to me exactly why. The trump administration obstructed congress in the first place in by Republicans particularly the Senate have done have signaled that the desire many of them have to keep as much new information from coming to light as possible but also I think illustrated a lesser disgust. Piece piece of the wisdom of Nancy Pelosi's decision to hang onto the articles for a few weeks Like we we tended to discuss that tactic through the lens of weather. It would force Mitch McConnell till admit defeat in some way or or or whether Senate Republicans individually would come out and say you know I'm I'm GonNa Not Vote for any motion. That doesn't allow us to call witnesses. And so you know now that the trial is getting underway and you know sure ince's of that sort have been made You see a lot of You Know Post Game Analysis of this decision. The policies gambit failed in some sense. But I think that's totally wrong right In part because this this flood of information that's coming out is is so unsettling that it seems like like it will make it very difficult for fifty one republicans to vote to shutdown new factfinding But also so because Pelosi kind of created as window right like that irrespective of what Republicans were going to do with their votes or how they were going to allow the trial to be structured assured the there was just this opening she created for people with information to to come forward right like. There's a strong indication that the Republicans in the Senate are leaning towards not allowing witnesses not allow documents To to come to light so in this limited period that Pelosi created stuff has started to come out Do you see. Do you see it that way or did you see it when you were reporting out your story that this was like an effect of of her having created some sense of uncertainty about when the trial would be allowed to start. I definitely didn't see it when I was reporting my story. I was sort of head down and you know oblivious because it's the holidays I'd his own I don't I'm not can't get in her head so I don't know how much I mean. She certainly didn't know in to some extent what was coming down the pike. I mean in terms of my own reporting I can see. That's for sure the partners I mean left parts had certainly indicated before that I believe if I'm remembering correctly like I'm GonNa Talk to Congress and I'm GONNA turn stuff. He might have already turned some of his documents over. So I think that and everybody's aware that this documentary evidence is out there So it I mean. In retrospect it seems like it was you know a wise move move on her part Trying to think there was something else you said but I'm now Oh I was thinking about how you said about Mitch McConnell and the Republicans like at this point they basically have to you know. New evidence has come forward and it now when they if they don't call witnesses and if they don't subpoenaed documents you know it'll look like they're not acting upon you know new evidence that's come forward that you really need you know. Oh you should be required to investigate and it reminded me you know on the one hand you think. Well they now have to do that like how could they their backs up against the wall but it reminded me as you're you're talking of the cavenaugh hearings and you know new. Witnesses came forward. And you know there was all this pressure to open up the FBI investigation. And they did did the sham process and call today so it's certainly not beneath them to do so do the question. What's the political cost? I I guess of doing it right right. The I mean the the Parnasse case. I'm I'm glad you mentioned it. I think it's like the most irrefutable refutable testament to the withholding the article strategy. Like he didn't his lawyer produce these incredible documents to the impeachment. Investigators and I think they like literally within hours of the House. Vote to refer the articles of impeachment to the Senate so like barely in time to be included in the factual record. And I wasn't aware that that your article had also gotten looped into the same factual records. So it you know the there. There is a quantifiable amount of information. That just was not known and to the impeachment investigators after they voted to impeach trump that became known to them before the trial began. And I think that makes it like fairly irrefutable refutable that the strategy strengthened the case itself completely apart from the question of how Republicans will vote destructor the trial or whether they'll allow allow any of this new information to affect their strong inclination to acquit trump. Did Gao finding. Today I mean I would put it in the same category gory it. It makes it really uncomfortable for the Republicans know violating the impoundment contract was not part of the you know was not an article of impeachment mint. But you now have this independent body saying the trump administration violated the law in connection to this story and you see already today today. Republicans sort of saying well the GAO's not that independent. which is you know? If that's your argument gets a losing argument And or you see them avoiding reporters they. Don't I want to comment on it. It's too it's too awkward And so the I will say from the time that the that the House voted on the articles to to where we are a day right now it is different information environment and it's a different a different political environment. I think for Senate Republicans that were already feeling a little bit uncomfortable up with just like cleaning their hands and making this go away as fast as they could. Yeah I think it was earlier today. Chuck Schumer tweeted something to the effect or said something to the effect of like you know. God Forbid Republicans. You know try to see all this information Render judgment against trump one way or another based on the incomplete record and then after they've already cast their votes to cover up whatever equipped trump the the whole truth comes out and not only have they voted for the cover it but the cover up fails retroactively and I'm watching. At least the Republican publican leadership grapple with this essential question. Like they must be aware now like it's like I think that they probably thought once the House House had voted to impeach trump that they would have a lot more control over the information environment Then they did when the house was running the show and the last two or three weeks have proven that they really don't right like there are still they're still foy they're still leakers. They're still witnesses. There's court cases that are ongoing and And these bombshells will continue to drop like in in the middle of the trial after the trial and so they are actually weighing this basic question. It's not cover up or no cover up it's it's Should we let all this information. Come out at once in the trial and then rip off the band aid and be done with it or let let it all Kinda dribble out slowly after we've already communicated with our votes our intention to to not let the public see this stuff. Yeah I'm two things I think they have to continue to obstruct because on you know I the information that's coming out is so damning and I can only imagine the information information that's being most closely protected like the Blair Duffy emails or whatever. The State Department e mails show are even worse. Like that's why we haven't haven't seen them And that's why you know the witnesses that haven't been allowed to testify Mulvaney. Blair Duffy John Bolton you know they have the worst stories to tell and so I can't imagine they take all right. Actually you know just that we can control. It will let everything come forward because it's You know it's like president. The president shooting someone Fifth Avenue. Like it's all GonNa be right there for us to see I think the other thing. That's a little tricky maybe for Democrats. It's not tricky but on the one hand there is plenty of evidence to explain what happened. between trump and Ukraine. And and you know him soliciting foreign interference in the election on that phone. Call the ties between asking for that investigation to Joe Biden and holding the military aid. The evidence is there that said. Is there more evidence out there absolutely so I think there's like this. Tricky thing that Republicans are also playing on where it's like. Well if you don't have the complete clete picture how on Earth Are you impeaching him. If there's all this stuff that still remains out there then you didn't do due diligence and so both things can be true. You can both have enough. Evidence is to move forward and there can also be plenty of evidence that still being obstructed and I think some of the allegations that Parnasse has raised just raise completely new questions like up until now the physical safety and the circumstances of Maria von riches being removed from Ukraine weren't part of the story really and as the FBI raid today shows the that's a new avenue investing of Investigation that cannot be you know just ignored or forgotten like we. I think the American public has a right to know Whether she was being threatened and back whom and where did it stop. How high up did it go? So a couple thoughts on that one is the this talking with the Republicans really have taken to about how this information coming to light just underscores that the house didn't do a very thorough job in its impeachment. Went totally allies. The point that trump has been impeached for obstructing the inquiry. Right like there's a reason. The House's factual record is incomplete complete and it's almost entirely because donald trump refused to cooperate with the inquiry. And so now he's they're going to have to vote on that article of impeachment and you the logic of what they're saying is that basically they're going to they're going to neuter their own institution and its power to compel executive branch disclosure of information. And I'm not sure for the trial will allow the impeachment managers to confront Senate Republicans with that contradiction that internal contradiction. And I'm curious to see like how how individual Republicans Republicans as a whole grapple with it The second thing is that I you know the the environment is uncertain enough that the White House is preparing for defections or at least is claiming to be preparing for defections on the question of witnesses and documents and trump himself after kind of pretending for awhile to want a fair trial. Trial now says that he might claim executive privilege if witnesses appear normally fights over that are resolved by AH accommodation between Congress and the executive branch or by courts..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"I have been directed by the House of Representatives to inform the Senate. The House has passed h read seven nine eight a resolution appointing and authorizing managers but the impeachment trial of Don. John John from he has been held accountable. He has been impeached. He's been impeached forever. They can never erase that. There's conventional wisdom in Washington. That goes like this. Nancy Pelosi delayed the start of Donald Trump's impeachment trial for several weeks to four Senate Republicans. Not to rig it. And since it's Mitch. McConnell didn't agree to hear from witnesses or subpoenaed documents that means she lost but the conventional wisdom is wrong. She one to see why imagine policy referred the articles of impeachment right after the House passed them. McConnell could have buried the trial in the Christmas holiday or convenient right after the New Year Senate. Republicans have dismissed the charges or acquitted trump based on the bad faith argument that the house didn't hear from firsthand witnesses. All of whom of course trump ordered not to testify testify instead Pelosi created uncertainty. There'd be no trial until we know whether Republicans plan to engage in a cover-up or not what and that left every Republican senator hounded by a simple question would they allow witnesses or would they block them. McConnell didn't quote quote Unquote Cave but it sure seems like his members did Maine Senator. Susan Collins told reporters on Friday that she's working with a small group of fellow all over Republicans on ensuring witnesses in the trial. I can't imagine that only two witnesses that our democratic colleagues would WANNA call would would be called. Sally should the Senate consider new evidence as part of the impeachment..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"The story story of the impeachment as as we sit in it will conceptually it makes the this question for the Senate trial of weather? And when Howard whether to call witnesses it removes it from this. Realm of abstraction to there's John Bolton right and he's ready to go and this isn't this longer hypothetical but that at least so so long as McConnell leader has fifty one votes behind him to think he can defer the question of calling witnesses is then even with a live John Bolton Sam I'm here I'm ready. SPINNEY IT undercuts right. The ability of Pelosi try to use that as leverage keeping. Yeah Mine. She's still holding onto the article. And I mean maybe this is a question posed a constitutional lawyer or whatever but having said you know in his statement. I've weighed The competing you know commands on me. And and I if if I have a subpoena from the Senate Command from the White House to defy. I'm going to honor the subpoena having said that if if House Democrats now want to go to court uh-huh and say to a judge. Tell him to testify in the House. I mean they're gonNA have a very strong argument. It it would it. Would it would Extend You you know. Trump's agony about not getting this acquittal. Vote quickly and seems to me like you would maximize the chances that you actually get John. Bolton's testimony because otherwise you're kind of leaving up to fifty one republicans to decide whether anyone else will testify right. Yeah absolutely but I don't get the sense sense that there's a house democratic appetite for re-opening What Nancy Pelosi Democrats soda with impeachment. Last last month I don't like again we're in the well of legally constitutionally politically may be possible but I don't see the appetite on the Democrat side ride for reopening their investigation which in essence is what that would do although certainly in legal terms. I thought the idea that an individual's the the one to decide which is the hell subpoenas. Seems like Topsy Turvy. Bolton is you know say what you will about him and he's a controversial guy but he he's. He's a smart lawyer. Earlier he presumably would have some argument to make that that things are different in the house and the Senate. I don't know I just. I agree with you that the appetite is there air in the house to do more enquiring more of the impeachment inquiry. I just don't totally understand why. Yeah I I think it's a bit of a well. Let's let's put it this way again. Expect Pelosi to prolong it by keeping the articles. But I do think she. She still has a commitment to her her majority makers those Democrats in swing districts with whom without whom she cannot keep majority in twenty twenty twenty. I think there's implicitly if not explicitly a commitment to them to say look. We're GONNA stay focused on the issues that are gonna get you reelected and reopening the impeachment investigation investigation or really the investigation. Generally just it doesn't seem to be on the top of their list of priorities. Now perhaps that changes but I I don't get the sense that that's where they're headed. Okay so eventually the trial will begin. We think and it's shaping up to pit Republicans who want to conceal and seal information has already come out against Democrats who kind of want it all to come out and you know Mitch. McConnell hasn't even really been shy about saying that he's not a partial jury. He he wants to get this in and out of the Senate's quickly possible. He claims he's gathered fifty one votes to begin the trial but put off questions about witnesses and documents for future votes. So what does the resolution of the standoff look like from a procedural point of view Is going to be one vote in the future on whether to shut. Shut down the fact finding purpose of the trial or will be a series of votes how our viewers at home supposed to interpret what they're watching on. TV relative to this question of new information. So here's what we know and what we we don't know so. There is a set of Senate impeachment rules on the books and that McConnell has committed to the following because he can set aside whether or not he could get rid of them. But he's GonNa follow this set of inherited Rules now those are pretty bare bones. Own Own they tell us things about motions and who has rights. Procedure writes in appeals. And the the things the oaths people take but it doesn't have doesn't flush out of trial so meaning being. It doesn't tell us how long the managers have how long the presence lawyers have to defend what are the order in which we take particularly different types of motions. So this is what McConnell has been saying. I have fifty one votes for a set of procedures to elaborate the at least the opening sequence of events in the trial and of course. That's what the Democrats have tried to narrow in on which say let's make this a fair trial Let's hear from witnesses. who were blocked in the house and so forth? So what does McConnell have in mind here for this open resolution well I it would be a resolution that would have to be approved by a majority as he said. I I have fifty one. He has said what's fair is fair. Let's use that opening resolution from the Clinton impeachment trial twenty years ago and let's use it. Roughly he said for this impeachment trial so devils in the details here we can pull up an open. The first resolution that was the supplemental amount of rules for Clinton in one thousand nine and we can know what they said but the question is are they going to follow that to a T.. So a certain number of days and hours for each side to present and then this is what they voted on and nineteen ninety nine. There will be a motion to dismiss and then also on that original agreement emotion. Shall we call witnesses in the abstract. Basically so that's that in essence seems to be what McConnell connel's saying I have fifty one votes for but we don't know for sure but but it matters right. Is there a motion to dismiss locked in right and and will there be any republicans who are willing to vote with the Democrats not to dismiss the trial right which will be within a week or two probably depending on how this plays out. I don't hear a lot of talk about that. But in that's why presumably impart why McConnell has told Speaker Pelosi I'm not showing my resolution apparently the connell if we believe the stories yesterday stole the White House so I'm not showing you my resolution so we need to see what's in there and we need to see it in part to know. How does that trial play out? Procedurally now having said that the barebones own Senate Rules do allow any senator to really offer a pretty wide range of motions in writing. Send it up to the chief not to Mitch McConnell but to send to the chief who then reads the motion in can rule on it or allow the Senate to rule so damn could call for a witness long before we get right in the middle all of the presentation. So and then. That's the uncertainty. Here will their votes on calling witnesses even before the call has said he wants to have those so so I want to get to to the chief justice's role in this In a minute Before that though you know we set aside questions of whether this investigation is inquiry is analogous enough to the Clinton impeachment to merit using the same rules But if McConnell is committing to something along the lines of the Clinton impeachment process yes there'd be a a vote on a motion to dismiss but if if that motion fails there were witnesses called at at that stage of the Clinton impeachment is. He not locking himself into a situation where he's going to have to say. Oh well now we have to. We have to veer off the Clinton Process for whatever reason he needs to come up with to avoid. Oh you for sure. He's not committed to them. Self anyways not said he all his all his said for his own purposes. Here is well last question. We're going to defer to later. And the Clinton trial they did another resolution was a partisan version that couldn't get Democrats onboard for it but that laid out a very limited depositions of of three witnesses so those questions yet to be determined But it's entirely possible. We'll see those votes occurring during even before McConnell in essence of what I what I think I'm hearing from you is that there is no way for McConnell acting on trump's behalf or whoever's behalf to guarantee not that the trial surfaces new facts without making fifty one of his members vote to say you know John Bolton thanks but no thanks will will they would need to fifty one is everything right. He can't he can't he. Can't deter a vote on an early vote on a motion call a witness unless he's fifty one to shut it down so on the one hand right we're not really used to simple majority Senate's right right. We all say cough was just fifty one yards could do whatever they wanted but holding together those fifty one. He he may be able to do it. But I think there'll be a little dicey when it gets to particular questions About particular witnesses so I see this batted around. Democrats need four votes. If they I wanNA have a fair trial. McConnell can lose two and he gets fifty one what happens if three Republicans but with Democrats on these on these procedural questions witnesses and documents and we get a fifty fifty tie so I just assimilate this democrats stay together and they will seems reasonable especially on the witness questions. Joe Manchin is the was the sort of wild card and he was like. How can I have a trial without exactly exactly so fifty fifty so there are two issues here one of which is the chief but will come come to the chief second the first issue? What exactly is the motion right? Because because it's a motion to dismiss and it's fifty fifty that stalemate and stalemate vote loses so three defections on some types of votes this is a losing position for the Republicans a fifty fifty on a on a motion to dismiss. The motion fails sales. If it's left in John Roberts cannot. Aw this is the first edition so the first conditions it matters if the motion is calling witnesses depends on. Who wants who? Who which side is looking looking for fifty one so the first issue? What exactly is is the motion at play here? The second issue then is if it's a tie. Hi What does chief justice do as presiding officer in this is somewhere between. What's what's politically possible? What's in the chief justice's Head and then what's technically legally president here so we have episodes from the Johnson impeachment trial the nineteenth century where they were to opportunities where the chief justice is decided to vote to break a tie and after each one there was a senate motion to prevent the presiding officer or the chief from breaking ties in both of those failed. However the chief got the message we think in the next two opportunities back in the eighteen sixties? He didn't break ties he would he would strain with help. So there's no well there's no yes or no here they're right. He could decide whether or not he's going to break the tie dye. Can we divine anything precedential about those. Those two votes and Salmon Chase was the name of the right of the chief justice way back in the eighteen hundreds when he voted to break the tie was in furtherance of what we kind of conceive of as like moving the Senate trial closer towards what we imagine a courtroom trial be like was more partisan than that what it was his So that's a good question. Which would require me to bury renos back in the peach record to figure out what it what exactly they were? I don't believe they were as quite consequential as some of the potential titles that we're talking about here but I need to go back and figure out what precisely those were but the the question here is for Robert urge sent a lot of people trying to discern what will be his his incentive or his motives are his goals as presiding officer. And I think the answer is as we probably don't know yeah I I'll be responsible and just game out the okay. I mean He. I imagined he'll feel cross pressured. Because if if he's thinking about how his actions will reflect on the Supreme Court He's GonNa WanNa go with public opinion. which is I think? Clearly on the Democrat side in these is fair trial questions but he's also conservative and a Republican and it's no secret how his old party wants this all work out in the end So that's why I asked about past Intrusions by the Supreme Court justice and impeachments because if the idea is is that when the Supreme Court chief justice intervenes in an impeachment trial He does it to advance the cause of public information Then Robert's can just point to that and save precedent Kinda binds me here..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Need I mean what sort of What sort of technique are you envisioning? Are you talking about official stuff. I was just hoping you had an answer. Because because for me the the advantage the edge of this idea of holding onto the articles has nothing to do with holding onto him. If you hold onto them long enough Mitch. McConnell would be thrilled he doesn't have to. I don't have to take tough votes. You need to get the articles over eventually. I I worry about the The information environment in general but particularly at a time when people are tuned out because of the holiday and so I could see uh or real advantage in creating the expectation that you're going to have a trial in early January and then you know house. Democratic leaders say Republicans are insisting that they're going to help trump completed cover up and we're not going to send these articles Over until you know until the whole world watching sees that's what they're trying to do probably Mitch McConnell doesn't care and he gets his fifty one votes for the cover up anyway but then at least you've commandeered the You know the the bully pulpit and you've made clear that that's what's happening so that every Republican votes for the cover-up has to pay the price for it. That's the best I can think of but advertising could be a part of the mix Getting the Democratic Radic presidential candidates involved could be part of a mix mass politics can be part of a mix. I mean there were. There were nationwide impeachment rallies on Tuesday night There should be more in bigger ones Particularly around these key votes where Republicans are going to try to short circuit the trial. I mean that's where that's where I would try to take things if I were in charge of a broad left response to impeach man a- and the thing is on the advertising front in particular it's just baffling that. There's not a much more concerted and targeted advertising effort on this stuff. They should be hammering the shit out of these four or five senators right now. I mean it should have been going on for for weeks. Yeah right yeah I mean look at. This is not an easy situation for Susan Collins and Cory Gardner and and and Thom Tillis and Martha mcsally and then of of course you've got the ones that are actually sort of trying to adopt a principled independence from trump like Romney and I don't know if you would go at them I think that backfires Right and it gives them one of the complications to this. That I've I've heard Democrats talk about is and this is sort of an interesting thing to try and debate and figure out. I don't I don't really have a position on it. Yeah but sometimes if the attacks are to direct it gives them away and it. It almost gives like some of the senators. That are kind of on the knife's research easier way out. It's like when when John McCain voted against repealing the affordable care act it. There was this moment in the in the well. Well of the Senate where where a bunch of Democrats wanted to to applaud or just take a victory lap or whatever before before it was is all said and done and Chuck Schumer Shush them. Because right because you know. I don't agree with every strategic decision. Chuck Schumer's ever made but I think he's so wisely. Then that if you gloat when the when the deciding vote hangs in the balance and and you know John McCain and what the fuck does he care like. Don't do that you know in certain in certain cases You know a direct aggressive attack is not necessarily always the best. But I'm I'm thinking less about how you micro target each individual center and more how you tell America that a vote to acquit without any witnesses equals cover up and I. I can see the ways that I listed but if if there or any other if there are any other ideas I want the people listening to hear them I will I frankly feel a little bit A little bit hopeless about this aspect of it. I think that there's not any kind of meaningful way of pressuring the Senate At this point maybe maybe just making those marginals a little uncomfortable rebel but to me like I just hate to return to this but I think the big picture is what happens after this process. I mean I know that's not exactly satisfying but look. Here's the bottom line right. We've always known that this is going to come down to an election right and right and what's going to matter as weather progressive. Democrats mobilize properly no one really interesting thing. I was talking to the Democratic Sharon Wisconsin and they are cheaper focused right now on knocking on doors in Milwaukee right to them. That's the ballgame knocking on doors in Milwaukee and making connections in rural Wisconsin to keep the margins down for trump. And Right now. Oh that's all they're really thinking about. And so you know. I don't know I hate to say this but all we can do is just make our case. I mean this. A lot of this goes back to the problem that you raised earlier. which is that our gatekeepers are screwed up right? The media gatekeepers of the ones. It's not as one Chuck Schumer. Shush Chesa Shusha's down the partisans on his side in order to create space for the McCain's of the world to do the right thing right the things that actually actually gets them to do the right thing are the gatekeepers and if it again this of course goes back to your original challenge. How do you get the gate for two right? Yeah it's it's a bit of a message right I by the way there's one thing we haven't talked about which I think is really important. It's all these spin off investigations. The Gatien's that are going on right now in the southern district and so forth. Yeah I think that's part of it too is like you. Ideally leave the impeachment inquiry open. You promised to keep it aggressive. You do advertising you micro target the individual senators but you create a the climate of fear among Among Vulnerable Senate Republicans that they don't know what they're voting to cover up and And Yeah I think that's a big part of yeah That's sort of like what I would like to see. The broader Democratic Party Democratic Democratic affiliated brain trust thinking about because otherwise you have this situation where You know the process draws to a close and then maybe there's a cacophony of developments down the line and it's not all part of one story where Republicans covered up trump's crimes only to have the cover-up collapsed on them and now now their votes to quit him. are exposed as a cover up of these things that we've right and the thing about that is that that is actually a message that individual members and senators can carry very effectively. It's not something that maybe you would use pay. Dad's Ed's It's not quite clear how you would say you know Susan Collins had better watch out about what's going to emerge later right but that is really a point that I think senators and House members can make very forcefully and interviews. Not something they should say as often as possible right. I mean to to to draw the affordable care. Act back in the discussion discussion Rivera. Remember when in the last days when they were about to take the final vote on it. Mitch McConnell who was minority leader at the time. What like you gave a press conference where he made sure to strike a very ominous tone? Democrats think that they can put this behind them with by taking this final vote and yeah I just want to be very clear that this is all in front of them. They're gonNA take this threat in. Every every Republican running in the United States is going to remind nine voters. What happened When Democrats pass this bill and and and and a similar sort of like forward-looking messaging it didn't stop the affordable care? Act from from passing right and it might not stop trump from being removed from from office. Certainly won't but it but it would sort of channel the way the news media and voters who are very engaged. Think about everything that happens right and that actually. There's a way to do that. That I think supports your earlier. Point about keeping Democrats on much more institute a On a much more of an institutional war footing in the house right What they should be saying to put those two things together is you may vote? You may run a sham trial now which you hear from no witnesses but let me be clear we are going to get those witnesses. We're going to hear from those witnesses Mrs. We're GONNA fight in court until we hear from them. We're GONNA fight in court until we get his tax returns an and his finances and then what we're going to say is here's what you cover it up right. So I think the aggressive institutional war-footing it forms the underpinning of that kind of message that is the hopeful. Note that I think we we should end on it and I hope that Influential people in the Democratic Party are listening and they follow They Do as Greg just he said Greg Sargent thanks for joining us. Thanks Brian that's it. For this week I won't be back until the New Year but in the meantime I'd encourage everyone listening to keep in mind. How straightforward weird things? Look when you peel away. All the layers of obfuscation trump has been impeached for extorting vulnerable foreign government to interfere in the twenty twenty election on his behalf. The evidence that he's guilty is overwhelming and until he became president. Nobody would have disputed. The what he did is an impeachable offense. There are people out there closer to the president who have even more evidence but trump has ordered them not to testify and they have complied with his order. If their testimony were exculpatory skull Tori Republicans would be desperate to put them on the witness stand. Instead they're desperate to keep that information from ever coming to light that makes them accomplices. That's it that's the story. Tell your friends tell your family and if you representatives or new sources tell you otherwise. Tell them they're using their power to spread lies and that you won't forget. This show is produced by crooked media. It's written and hosted by me Brian. Boiler Steven Hoffman is our producer and editor. If you enjoyed this episode please subscribe rate and review US wherever you get your podcasts..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Greg Sargent thanks for coming back on the show. Thanks for having me on Brian. So by the time people listened to this episode. Donald Trump will be impeached beached He will probably be very upset about it But because of the holidays will be in this kind of little phase where the process is still underway. But nothing's is happening If you're vulnerable Senate Republican are you happy about the pause or would you rather get it over with sooner rather than later. Well I think a lot depends on how the break goes right. I mean if they start catching hell in their in their states about from constituents who are who are angry about the potential for a sham. I am process Sham trial. Then I think that they hate to have to wait. I mean it's GonNa be on democratic groups and pro rule of law groups to kick up a lot of fuss during that period and get some pressure on them along those lines. Those of us who supported impeachment from the outset have made the argument that there's this value in doing it even if Republicans are going to make sure that trump's days in office Because the process the forcing Republicans in the House and Senate to take votes it all those votes essentially constitute them his corruption their own. How do you think that proposition looks today? Well I think it looks really good and you can see that very clearly in precisely what Mitch McConnell is doing to try and turn this trial Ryland to a very quick little. Donald Trump was out there and I don't really think we should place much stock in this. But he was out there saying oh I want to turn this into a AH a festival of of baying for Hunter. Biden's head on a platter and Mitch McConnell Essentially shut that down pretty quick and said no and I think as you wrote somewhere Mitch McConnell was saving trump from himself. And doing this as well as saving his own marginal members from long drawn out trial. Point being though that Mitch Inch Mitch. McConnell understands as well as anyone else does that the more facts that are brought into evidence the worse it is for the marginal Republican senators and tough places like Susan Susan Collins and main Martha mcsally and errors in Arizona and so forth. I had direct experience of that earlier this week. I was able to get The video of Susan Collins in Nineteen Ninety nine during the Bill Clinton impeachment trial calling for more witnesses and evidence. I am willing to travel. The road owed wherever it leads whether it's to the conviction or the acquittal of the president but in order to do that I need more evidence. I need witnesses and further evidence to guide me to the right destination to get to the truth and I was surprised that they got back to me. Pretty quick with a quote from Senator herself saying I haven't made the decision on the witness issue in this particular case now. This is only a process question. You'd think thank right but it's a tough process question. Do you want to vote for the cover up or do you want to vote for transparency and truth and The fact that Susan Collins this is struggling with this I think shows that even just going through the motions is tough for them. Yeah I mean it's there's you know multiple all steps here right there's Probably going to be some sort of resolution to establish the ground rules of the trial and then at some point votes on witnesses and then the vote vote on whether to acquit or convict. And it's obviously Mitch McConnell's goal to make sure that the Republicans vote to convict and ideally the Republicans ever have to vote for any witnesses at all so that just that means he's going to try to around fifty one votes to basically basically dismissed the charges Before you even get to place where house. Impeach managers can request or demand Mick Mulvaney or John Bolton testify before the Senate every phase of that process the the cost to Republicans I think becomes higher her but that just means that at the at the early phase you know. Are we going to. Are we going to have a fair trial at all Mitch. McConnell can lose two or three senators give them a free free pass to say I want to hear from witnesses but if you get fifty one votes to dismiss they can say look. I tried tried to vote for A process where Where we heard from witnesses? My colleagues disagreed. So now I have to vote With what we have before us from from the articles articles of impeachment in the presentation of them by by the managers. And I don't think there's enough there to convict so I quit. And thus every Republican Senator Votes votes to acquit. And I. I don't think that that's like a highly unlikely outcome And I guess it just it gets to. It gets to my thinking about like like what more Democrats could do. I obviously votes to cover up Trump's crimes you know say no to any witness testimony are going to be bad for whichever vulnerable. Republicans have to take those votes but you know should Democrats have. I've been beating the drum starting in September that that Republicans need to be committing to a fair trial now should Democrats be withholding unrelated legislation education. Like the Defense Authorization Act or the The NAFTA UPDATE and just saying we're not going to play ball with you on on other things if what you're going to do is complete the cover up. Trump is asking you. Well I just want to return to something you said earlier about the scenario a scenario ruin which Mitch McConnell. Let's to two or so of the marginal senators Make fake noises about wanting a real trial and then still oh passing a quick Acquittal with fifty one or passing the initial steps to the acquittal by essentially getting past the process stuff with fifty one votes I think the calculation there becomes complicated for them right because even if they do that even if Susan Collins and Cory Gardner and Martha mcsally or whichever three you pick are allowed to to sort of make their fake noises. If the whole thing is a sham. It's still bad for Senate Republican. That's true right now. The the because I mean in this era of nationalized voting right everything turns on the national narrative and one really interesting thing will to track will be whether they're those marginal senators privately go to McConnell and say we really need a real We need a real proceeding at least something more or than just a quick fifty one vote now right and if that happens of course then they run more risks in addition right. That's that's really the spot they're in so I mean I guess the in terms of messaging it seems like the thing that Democrats can do that could be most effective. Active is just to continue to spotlight the facts right. I mean look how quickly the debate shifted when Schumer just sent that one letter now. I think there's an argument that that shows. They should have been doing it more more aggressively earlier but it just goes to show you that just one. There's if there's one thing that the press can get right on this stuff it's a cover up or not cover. I'm right right do house. Democrats have any substantive role to play with their own powers Going going forward now that they've passed the articles so I think there's all this talk about them holding onto the impeachment and not sending it over one thing one reason I'm a little skeptical optical of that and I'm happy to be told I'm wrong about this you know there's been a lot of criticism of leadership for doing it too quickly for doing it. Too narrowly and so forth. I was for for a broader impeachment. I would've been happy to have a little longer or somewhat longer but I really wonder whether there's a genuine risk of some of these moderate starting to drop off off if it if it drags on right now. I don't know what happens from the point of view of those moderate members. If you pass the articles through the House the impeachments done and then you hold it. I suspect that they'd still not like that right. Because what they want is for took pushed over to the Senate I mean they want the hot potato out of their exact hands. But I'm going to switch metaphors. There's no such thing as half pregnant with impeachment Schmidt right you can't vote for the resolution that sets the rules of impeachment And then learn all this horrible stuff and then vote against impeachment. Which is why you know you? You have a basically unanimous democratic caucus voting for the articles of impeachment. Having voted for them. If more bad news comes to light about trump nick more evidence that he committed further impeachable offenses comes too late. You don't get to you. Don't save yourself anything by ignoring them. You've already voted for the impeachment. If you're scared the the voters in your district are going to be mad at you for that. It's that that ship has sailed it's overwrite so there's an argument that I think leadership should make to them though like we should press what we have to our fullest advantage and if that means is Holding more hearings damage trump. That's good for all democrats If that means You know holding the articles impeachment in order to make a stink about About the fact that the Senate majority leader has already announced. He wants to read the trial. That's all all to the better like the the the hard part is over the you know they are already You know going to be Identified in ads ads or whatever and Republican campaigns in the fall has members who voted to impeach trump. It's already happened so it reminds me in a weird way of back when Congress was debating the affordable care act and in Democrats were agonizing over whether they should do a public option or not or a national exchange versus a state based health insurance exchange and it was just so beside. The point is like it's obamacare either. You're going to vote for Obamacare or against it so stop agonizing over the little details If you decided that you need to vote for this because it's the right thing to do but you're scared about the political consequences down the line. The picayune details details aren't GonNa be what what causes you problem. It's going to be the vote. Will the votes done. So now. Just you know. Make the most of it That's sort of how I see it I I guess. I'm curious for your thoughts on that. Well I just want to try and step back and and raise a bigger point about all of this. I think we're almost pinning too much on some of this process stuff we know he's getting acquitted. Right we know that's going to happen. Okay we would like there to be a trial that's real. I think we don't know whether even if that happened. How much we would get from Bolton and Mulvaney although I would love to see it tried right so I don't? I don't know that that we can actually expect too much of a range of options at the end of this chapter right here right to me what I think really matters. There's more as what happens after the impeachment on the equival. Right if the Democrats continue to prosecute this stuff in court if they try to you know get testimony from people. Oh and by the way to go back to the point you raised before the possibility of other things breaking. You know. There's this I think there's a sort of illusion out there that this ends with trump's trump's acquittal right it doesn't I mean all these Republicans who vote no on the articles in the House and all the Republicans who vote to acquit. The Senate and. I think it's almost certainly going to be near unanimous in both right. Yeah what really is going to end up mattering over the long. Longterm is what comes out after and I think there's a extremely good chance we're GONNA get incredibly big revelations down the line that are at least as bad as the ones we already know the trial unless something unexpected happens and who knows maybe by the time you listen to this We'll be in a very different place but the trials probably going to start Artan early January. So we're talking a couple of weeks to To communicate to as much of the country as possible that Senate Republicans are going to try to short circuit witness testimony to complete a cover up for Donald Trump. How do you get the message out there? If you're the Democratic Party you know everyone's going to scatter the four To the four winds in and people are going to be with their families on Christmas and new years. And how do you. How out of you before before Mitch? McConnell manages to get that vote done. How do you get the word out in this environment on the short timeframe well? I don't really have an answer to that and I don't think anybody does right. I mean the information environment is really screwed up right now unless you're running official proceedings. You can't really get the sort of punch that you need..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"We need to show that they can get things done in Washington but if you if you if you draw the like that like the fallacy is pretty obvious there right okay. So why don't they just pass everything that Donald Trump wants. It'll prove that they can get things done. Of course that means Donald Trump will become more popular and suddenly their ability to hold on to their districts. Democrats ability to hold the House Democrats ability to beat trump in the election and starts deteriorating right so like at some level down to how much of an emergency do you think we're in right and the frustration. Is that Pelosi and some of these other Democrats crats are not treating this like it's sufficient emergency right. It's an it is to my mind and emergency that overrides. All other policy goals right. We have eleven eleven months to decide whether we're going to continue to be a liberal democracy or not and whether or not you got a better deal in prescription drug prices the prescription drug prices are really important. But they're actually not as important as that. Yeah so I I actually think about this in almost the exact same way is that if Democrats rats are going to like cut if they're going to quote cut deals with trump They really ought to be a one shot deal. You're not gonNA have a second. The second chance to to get this done. That really advanced the ball on some progressive goal and They should also be issues issues. Sort of code as a Democratic Party issues so like I traced out a hypothetical that if trump were willing to pair a big minimum wage hike. Fifteen dollars minimum wage. Whatever in order to get this trade deal done like I'd probably get there? I think that that ends. You know you you get so much out of it that it might be worth it. And it's clear that trump gave some to get some and so it's not just a a straight victory for him but if you don't have that kind of You know situation at hand If the benefits are marginal or if you think that future Democratic president can do as well or better than you just don't do it right like this is not cutting the same trade deal with Mitt Romney it would be totally unremarkable of Democrats. were making this deal with Mitt Romney But in a world with democracy under threat and the US president is the single biggest part of that threat then handing him easily spun on victories. That validate key parts of his message. Seems like such an obvious mistake that I'm kind of stunned and I WANNA go back to this idea of despair that I was talking about about earlier because you know it's it's obviously not just me right. I mean I wrote this thing because I had this sort of ambien sense that it was happening The reaction to it was has got a ton of feedback from other people who are feeling the same thing. Recently I started reaching out to therapists to talk to them about what their patients are saying about trump I lasted this in the run up to the election I started talking to therapists about patients who had a lot of anxiety that trump would win the election. It's kind of heartbreaking. Because one way that they helped them manage that anxiety was to help them. See how unlikely that possibility was. She's obviously not possible anymore. Right so I've been talking to therapists pissed. You know in in blue parts of the country but who say that trump comes up in almost for some of them. Trump comes up in almost every session right and and I was just talking to somebody this morning. Who was telling me that She feels like people have moved from the state of hyper Hyper vigilance to a state of despair and that despair is I mean. It's dangerous for them but it's dangerous for all of us. We cannot ah go into election with are people feeling that By the way she was saying that some of the people that she treats they're having the hardest time with what's happening are are Holocaust survivors. And so I think that our people the people who are going to hopefully have a chance to save democracy In eleven months. They need to feel like they have a champion. They need to feel like there's somebody who recognizes the scale of the emergency who recognizes is. How terrified they are and who can stand up for them and inasmuch as we have everybody focused on this little tiny demographic slivers hours of these front-line districts? I don't think we have that and I think it's it's really really dangerous before wrapping it up. I did want to talk to little bit about the trial. What you anticipate it looking like stipulating that Sitting here we don't think that there's anywhere close to twenty the republican votes to remove him. What do you think it looks like? Are you concerned about these murmurings among moderate Democrats. They might prefer censure rather than impeachment. Of course I'm concerned terrified and I mean it's it's it's so self defeating it makes it makes my head want to explode. I mean I cannot fathom why they think that kind of getting to this point and then let essentially leading donald trump off the hook would be You know an a good idea not just for a good for the country but ultimately a good idea for them but the other thing that concerns me about the Senate trial With Bill Clinton's Senate trial. I think there was three witnesses called. I would be surprised if there's even that many I mean from what I've read there's you know there's trump who wants to turn it into a big circus and try to call hundred Biden and try to call all these other people in some sense. I feel like that would be the better situation for Democrats. Go find you call Hunter Biden but we're also calling Rudolph Giuliani and we're also calling. You know life partners and all these other figures a trial in which kind of nobody's but he's called and it's just kind of a bunch of Senate floor speeches seems really anticlimactic all right. Let's leave it there. Michelle Goldberg. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. That's it for this week. By next week's episode. The impeachment of Donald Trump should be complete and we will be awaiting the trial of Donald Donald Trump in the United States senate. That trial probably won't begin until January But that doesn't mean everything will be on hold until then there's another transcript out there. The Democrats want to see this one between Ukrainian President Vladimir's Alinsky and vice president. Mike pence so the chase is on for that will also likely learn whether and when the supreme cream court will hear arguments over president. Trump's challenges to all these subpoenas of his financial records and one silver lining of a narrow impeachment investigation.
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Some of you on this committee appear to believe Russia and its security services did not conduct campaign against our country and that perhaps Somehow for some reason you credit. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by Russian security services themselves. And there's a story about impeachment that goes like this. Democrats moved to impeach Donald Trump two months ago because unlike the Russia scandal the Ukraine scandal is simple easy for the public to understand if you've heard that story before you may have heard this one that actually there are no distinct Russia and Ukraine scandals. There's just one scandal through two weeks of impeachment hearings. We learned a lot about the Ukraine backstory. The hoops president trump and his subordinates jumped through before he hopped on the phone with his Ukrainian counterpart Vladimir Zelinski. And said. I would like you to do us a favor though but what the hearings left fairly murky is how and when trump came to view the allied government of Ukraine as a target for and partner in corruption. It's not as though trump had a normal relationship with Ukraine before he became nervous about the twenty twenty election and then pick Zelinski is name out of a hat to understand how we got here. We have to go back to the beginning long before Donald Trump became president. You were reportedly the closest political geyser American Political Adviser to victory on a coach of Ukraine. Frayne who is a close ally Vladimir Putin Russia. If you're listening I hope you're able to find the thirty thousand emails that are missing being. There's been some controversy about something in the Republican Party Platform. That essentially changed. The Republican Party's views when it comes to I Ukraine. How much influence did you have on changing that language? Sir I had none in fact I didn't even hear of it until after I convention was over. Where did it come from then because everybody on the platform committee had said it came from the trump campaign if not you and frankly that whole part of the world is a mess under Obama the people of Crimea me up from what I've heard would rather be with Russia than where they were? Let's talk about this new reporting from the New York Times this morning about Paul Manafort and his dealings in The Ukraine with Viktor Yanukovych. He was a consultant for Victor Yanukovych and apparently the times and investigators have gone back and found these handwritten ledgers breaking news. Here more changes at the very top of the trump campaign. I'm told that this morning. His Campaign Chairman Paul Manafort offered and Donald Trump accepted his resignation. Paul Manafort joined the trump campaign in March of twenty sixteen around the time. The campaign came came to learn that Russia intended to leak dirt had stolen from Democrats at the time. Manafort was deeply in debt to a modeling Russian billionaire named Oleg Der Pasta and yet he agreed to work for trump pro bono. By that point trump had already made a big bazaar showing his admiration for Vladimir Putin but Manafort's unexpected arrival on the scene brought someone who had been at the center of the struggle between Russia and the West over the future of Ukraine into the heart of the trump operation seven and he was firmly on Russia's side between trump's deference to Putin and Manafort's lasting influence trump's relationship with Ukraine crane has never really been on the level last year. The Ukrainian government froze all of its ongoing investigations of manafort including its cooperation. With special counsel. Counsel Robert Muller in an Echo of the current extortion scandal Ukraine took that action just as the US finalized the sale of Javelin missiles to strengthen Ukraine's hand in. It's hot war with Russia. The country's president time was pets report. SHANECO who was once a client of you guessed it Paul Manafort and pour a Shaneco who's going to manufacture dirt on trump's political enemies until he unexpectedly lost the presidency to an anti corruption. Political reformer named Vladimir's Alinsky Alinsky or consider the Russian conspiracy theories that Rudy Giuliani pedaled on trump's behalf about the Biden's and Ukrainian interference in the two thousand sixteen election election. The became the subject of the trump Zielinski call on July twenty fifth. Giuliani pluck those from Russian aligned. Ukrainian oligarch named Dmitri for Tush. who was once business partners with again Paul Manafort and where did for Tosh get those conspiracy theories we'll probably from any number of places but the vector who imported that disinformation into the United States needs no introduction metaphors former or deputy Rick Gates has testified that manafort began pushing it starting before the twenty sixteen election? So this question. Why did trump takes such a predatory Oy posture with the new government of Ukraine? The short answer is simple. He wanted to cheat in the election but why pick on Ukraine in the first place that is part of a much longer story. My guest. This week is frank four. He's written extensively about Manafort and Ukraine in the Atlantic Manic. We'll look back at the origins of the Ukraine scandal and how they disappear into a larger story of corruption Russian election interference and the two thousand sixteen election. I'm Brian Butler. And this is Rubicon. frank thanks for being here pleasure So for a while. Now I've thought that the best way to kind of place. The Ukraine scandal in the wider constellation of trump's corruption is to just try to answer the question. How did the Ukraine scandal start? Because when I tried to pinpoint an origin I realized that the DOTS actually extend way into the past and it didn't just begin at random in May of this year when trump I had a freak out about about his standing in the election and having to run against Joe Biden. So how is he as you understand it. Did the Ukraine scandals start so I go back to this core question that critics have always asked about Donald Trump which is is this guy vulnerable to foreign manipulation and and people ask that question because of the wide array of properties that he owned around the world and the way that his business interests were tangled up in places where you authoritarian governments who just weren't abiding by the same sorts standards that that we abide by it. So I think you kind of have to go go back and look at the long history of people from the former Soviet Union trying to manipulate trump in various area sorts of ways and some of the relation is is willing and trump is fully aware of. What's happened a lot of it is subconscious and I think when you have oligarchs from Russia or Ukraine they look at trump and they say oh? This guy is a totally familiar figure. We understand how his mind works. We understand how he can be. He can be influenced and so people were using various channels to try to to sway way Donald Trump. And you know I think the first time. We really started to acutely conceptualize what was happening. I think is with the Manafort Fort Scandal where you said. This guy came from came from Ukraine. He was working for the Pro Russian party. Why was he why did he descended on the trump campaign? But I look all the way through and I see I see you have oligarchs In Ukraine rain who have constantly been trying to figure out. What's the right channel? Is it the campaign chairman. Is it the personal lawyer They're hiring Fox. News commentators as their lawyers are getting columns placed in the hill by by columnist who they can pretty well be sure is going going to end up in Donald Trump's twitter feed and so there's also the sense of they know exactly how to rile him up. It's a look at that Ukraine scandal. You know the the the narrow question that shift is focus on is. was there a quid pro quo. Was He trying to extort Ukrainians wins in order to get dirt on his political opponent. But I look at it and I say if I look at the transcripts now look at the whole narrative of the scandal. I'd say the president was very actively in successfully manipulated by bad actors in this part of the world who who were very very successful in shifting the foreign policy of the United States to suit their aims. I'm glad you put it that way because you listeners. who heard the INTRO Will suspect that I think Paul Manafort is a big part of the origin story of the of Ukraine scandal. And I definitely believe that but there are these episodes is it. Don't quite fit the picture right like after After trump's been elected and MANAFORT's no longer in the in the middle of trump world. There's there's this story about this Ukraine peace plan right that that makes its way to Mike. Flynn who was then the national security adviser but it doesn't come from manafort directly comes uh-huh maybe not for Manafort at all. It comes from Michael Cohen and and Felix Seder. who were You know in league with the same same sort of shady people that you just described but on a sort of a different channel and even I wonder you know and I'm pretty pretty thick and all this like how critical critical Manafort is to the story. Because if you imagined he'd like never worked for trump Trump was still very much in Russia's debt When the election and ended He was singing Putin's praises long before Manafort joined the campaign. He was working on the Moscow. Tower project independently Manafort and and. It seems conceivable to me that we were always going to end up here. Because Russia help trump win and Russia's leverage over trump and so trump was going to side with the store corrupt factions actions in Ukraine rather than the pro-western reformers. No matter what I think. That's I think this would happen absent. Paul Manafort because you you have a lot of people in so I think that the the actually the crucial thing is the development of the relationship between Ukraine in the United States. It's and I'm just GONNA. I think this is a foreign policy story in addition to being a corruption story which is that Russia is a revolution in Ukraine in two thousand fourteen. The PRO Russian government. The Paul Manafort works for gets swept out of power they get replaced by By by a more liberal democratic regime albeit still oligarch kick and the United States starts spending a lot of money protecting Ukraine and that gives us leverage over Ukraine. So you have somebody. He like Ambassador Marie Ivanovich who's in Ukraine. All American ambassadors always wanted Ukraine to behave in a less corrupt sort of way they've always wanted presidents to challenge Ukraine's oligarchy system. But finally we had all this leverage over the government and the government starts taking actions to clean clean itself up and so you got a lot of oligarchs who were suddenly very much on the defensive. Paul Manafort's clients were on the defensive. You've Rudy Giuliani's kind of new clients and the people that he collaborated with in this extortion scheme were suddenly on the defensive and and so they needed to find a way to undermine the US embassy in Kiev and so they see that Donald Trump was a guy who they could manipulate into doing their bidding. They're and they're the way that they were able to entice. Donald trump to their side was to feed him a lot of bogus. This conspiracy theories that he bought into because they were They all adopted the kind of the memes of Donald Trump. They there were arguments about the deep state. They were arguments about how he was. His opponents. Were manipulating things that were arguments about. How Ukraine was the one manipulating the election? Not Russia and so they knew how they knew how to to to to to go him they knew his psyche..
"donald trump" Discussed on Rubicon: The Impeachment of Donald Trump
"Jurassic. We'll discuss the dots left unconnected by the impeachment been increased so far and what we risked by not connecting them. I'm Brian Butler Quinta Jurassic. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me so I guess. Let's just start with your global assessment of the impeachment process as it stands in specifically what you thought when you read Gordon. Silence is opening statement and then he washed his hearing and all of the revelations that came out of that Schorr. Well I remember seeing someone roads In the morning before silence hearing that it wasn't going to be very notable unless he went full semi the ball. Sammy the bull vulgar. No the famous mafia figure who flips turned on the Mafia gave testimony against them. And I think it's fair to say that he went full Sammy the He really turned on a dime from what he'd said during his testimony which there plenty of questions about that but he was was incredibly damning what he said about the extent to which everyone was in the loop I think was the exact phrase and that really just knocks down defense after defense after defense the Republicans had been road testing. She wrote a piece for the Atlantic earlier. This month about how it's folly. To assume career government officials will save us from the threat the trump and his supporters pose to democracy and the piece itself off is about I about Robert Muller and later about the diplomats Who testified at the first impeachment? Hearings I wonder how Fiona Hill's testimony that that ended search just before we record this fits into your view of that so my argument and the piece was that the first two civil servants who testified instantly kind of became name of online George Kent had the bow tie. Hi Bill Taylor had this great Walter cronkite voice and they sort of came forward as the voices of almost authority from a different time I'm of you know America Apple Pie and that's really appealing right now. In a sort of the bleak period in which we're living and the danger is that those civil servants are not there to be heroes. They're there to do their jobs. which actually Taylor in Kent kept saying over and over again? You know. I'm I'm nonpartisan. I'm telling you what I know. I've been called to testify and I felt it was my duty. I don't WanNa be here with Fiona Hill. She's a little bit differently differently. Situated than Kent in that she's technically was a political appointee in this administration but I think she does speak to that kind of ethos of public public service in the in the way that she was testifying and in the same way as you saw Taylor can't allow a lot of people right now. Said you know Fiona Hill Forever Fianna Hell Fan the club. You know I've been self you and a hill twenty twenty. It's like no there. Yeah right she unfortunately cannot run for president And there's a similar dynamic. There is the one that I I saw with Kenton Taylor. To that Fiona Hills job was to work in the National Security Council in Europe and Russia matters and her job now as she sees it as clearly to come before Congress and tell Congress what she knows she kept emphasizing again and again. I'm a fact witness. This is my purpose but she's not going to ride in and save the day and what I mean by that specifically is that she's actually she's she's been an incredible witness Just in terms of I mean her own performance. He's given these amazing speeches but however many speeches she gives they're not going to break through to the gym Jordan's of the world and so does it help the Democrats and the impeachment. The effort that they have this amazing witness Fiona Hill that she tells a clear story that matches up with everyone else's strobe -solutely but it's not going to solve the problem that you know at the end of the day Jim Jordan and Devin nunes are still going to be up there yelling about the steele dossier. So I've been struck a few times as the impeachment process. This is unfolded by so the flip side of this like th. They don't have a magic ability to convince Jim Jordan and they might not even feel like It it's their role all to involve themselves beyond whatever legal obligation to Congress is by how this process has revealed. How these conspiracies can fester and develop even as people of genuine integrity witness them unfolding get folded into them and they're still kind of no way for them to to do what we might imagine? The heroic thing is right like I think a Bill Taylor first and foremost in this. Because he knew something was up and he could resign Zayn and he could have blown the whistle but he worked through proper channels to try to stop the conspiracy from taking effect and he tried to help the people of Ukraine and yet from from his perspective. He prevailed right like the. The Republicans are so fond of noting that quid pro quo was never fully consummated and having succeeded why would he then speak up. Lose his post throw the Ukrainians that he clearly cares about to the very wolves he just save. Save Them From and so if it hadn't been for the impeachment process I don't think he would've ever said anything about this and then separately. There's this really dramatic matic testimony from Fiona Hill that we clipped played in the intro. A big part of what I think she was talking about. There was perception right from her perspective. There was this sort of wrong but limited meddling happening in Ukraine policy but then from Gordon silence perspective he was just carrying out policy what he believed the US policy to be and so the whole notion of conspiracy is kind of the wrong language for either of them to describe what's happening and so there's nothing thank really for either of them to do to alert the public right and so it's not just the bureaucrats can't save us because they can convince the broader public or they can't Stop Stop Republicans From acting in their own political interests but they can't save us because sometimes they just can't see that there's anything to save us from they have equities to protect attacked or they're just kind of in the fog of it and blind to all the dimensions of what they're living room. Does that make sense. I think the the best example of someone who's who's struck in the fog seems to have been Kurt Volker and in saying this I'm drawing not only on Volker's own testimony which seemed to me like he may have I've been trying to intentionally obfuscate his understanding of what was going on but The testimony of others including can't Ann Taylor who kind of indicated that they felt Volker may have been drawn a little too far in that. They didn't question his motives but that he was thinking a little too much. Sort of tactically step-by-step. How do I mitigate harm and that lost the sense of when you take a step back? This is really something wrong. That's happening and in that way. Volker is actually a really good example I think of the sort of the corruption of Donald Trump right the the way that people kind of get sucked in and and lose their perspective regarding the other people involved. Here you know Taylor Kent Hill would. Would we be hearing from any of these people. If the whistle blower complaint hadn't been filed. I don't know and I agree. It's a really disturbing bring thought not only because you know how many other instances have there been where a whistleblower complaint wasn't filed and we didn't find out what happened vend but also because I think it goes back to the same issue with Volker. You know this is a case study of how difficult it is has to be a moral person and serve your country which all these people really do seem to have that. We're doing under incredibly difficult. Circumstances in a government run by someone who's actively trying to undermine you they're all these people trying to do the right thing and some of them have even come out of it looking good and at the end of the day. There's just this lurking question of did they let themselves has get drawn into far. I mean we we can zoom back. To other controversies other officials. Who we were told were the adults in the room who were trying to keep trump on the rails keep policy in order in in many cases? It seems like what that ended up forcing them to do was try to cram a corrupt endeavor into a facially legitimate government action try to find a legal pretext text for it. Try to find a policy rationale for it that could be explained to Congress to the public to themselves probably as you know maybe not ideal policy and maybe not wise but acceptable within you know with you know on the rails in some sense and then they leave and we never get the full story because you know either they succeeded in cramming trump's corrupt objectives into whoa facially non-corrupt box in a bail or the try to stop it and they resign and they go back to their private lives and in almost all these cases with like like the one big exception being Jim Komi we just never hear from Jim. Mattis former defense secretary from DNA Powell former deputy national security adviser iser nature. mcmasters another good example of this and it makes me really worry about what happens on the flip side of this impeachment process is that we're going to go back to that. And trump is going to be at the apex of his corruption because he's going to have survived the one confrontation over it. The Democrats were willing to bring against the question should Democrats wrap this impeachment up without making some kind of maybe time-limited but serious effort to compel testimony from the principals. I suppose right. The bureaucrats won't save us with any of the political appointees. Have the information that's needed. If not to remove Donald Trump then to strip away the legitimacy from the things he might do as he abuses his power going forward. So I think that the clear implication of Hill's testimony is that John Bolton knew a lot more about what was happening in real time than she did and he tried to shield the National Security Council from it and Democrats haven't even issued him a subpoena. Is that a mistake Bolton. I don't understand what Game Baltin is playing to be completely honest with you. I mean it really seems like he can't decide Reid who he wants to go to the prom with he he kind of you know. He says he doesn't WanNa testify and then he dangles you know. Well I have all this information that I could give you sort of one step forward one step back so I'm going to be completely honest. I have no idea what game he is playing. I agree with you. That based on Hill's testimony it seems like he has a lot to say. Based on the testimony of two Morrison Hill. Successor is seems like he has a lot to say because Morrison Morrison was an incredibly frustrating witness. Not even talking about the public airing but just by his deposition. If you read the transcript. He basically says John Bolton you know went into this room and had this conversation and then he came out and he's asked what did he say to you and he basically Gli says I don't want to talk about that over and over again and so we get these kind of hints that John Bolton must have known more and must have. You've done more without that ever actually being fleshed out soon away..