3 Episode results for "Devil May Care Media"
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Megyn Kelly | The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special Ep. 103
"I'm worried about the kids who get this teenagers get maligned as awful big. It's racists xenophobes transposed just for having an opinion that may not go with the you know the mainstream now. How the media. People out of an honestly held or religiously held opinion on controversial issues. And it's going to get worse unless people speak up. If you followed political commentary at all this century. One of the most influential voices on the political scene for well over a decade, she's been at the forefront of political news covering elections, seeing debates providing commentary since she began at. Fox. News in two thousand, four at Fox chosen multiple hit shows including the wildly popular America live as well as the unbelievably popular the Kelly file after leaving Fox in two thousand seventeen she went on to host Megan Kelly today on NBC. A self made media giant Megan has been one of the strongest voices for real female empowerment as opposed to the toxic brand of modern feminism. That's so often pedaled in the media. Now having left behind traditional television Megan has moved into my territory the world podcasting her new show the Megan Kelly show premiered last month with her heart heading commentary, an incredible slate of staggeringly lustiest guests such as well. Me and probably smothers the show has been an instant success. As accessible as Megan has been in her career, she's also repeatedly found herself embroiled in controversy from her challenges at Fox News to feud with Donald Trump to her tumultuous relationship with NBC Megan and I discussed all of the fact and explored what the media just got plain wrong. There's more to the story than you might think hope you enjoyed our conversation. Hey Hey welcome. This is the Ben Shapiro show Sunday special. Just reminder we'll be doing some bonus questions at the end of the show with Megan Kelly. The only way you can get access to that part of the conversation is become a member head on over to daily wear dot com become a member you'll have to all of the full conversations with everyone of our awesome guests. Megan thanks so much for joining the show. Hey, thanks for having been good to see you. So obviously were recording the slightly in advance of when it's going to come out. So the state of the race could change but let let's talk obviously from the from the outset about what you see the state of the race as with regard to president trump and and Joe Biden it seems like there. have been all these dramatic events but one thing stays fairly consistent and that is the polling data. The data seems to consistently suggests a large national lead for Joe Biden and a pretty solid state lead for Biden in most of the swing states and even the states that shouldn't be swing states seem pretty close. How do you gauge this election right now? We'll right now trump's losing I think that's true. Because by head every poll in virtually every state has been steadily, but I almost mewat as a basketball game ben where you know I don't really watch of basketball but doug puts it on and I keep an eye on it and what I realized over the years is you only ever need to tune in for the last few minutes of a basketball game. There's no point in. Watching the whole game. All everything that determines what's going to happen is the last two minutes and I think these margins are probably going to tighten significantly before we get to November third and people are still deciding whether they're really gonNa vote for Biden I mean disaffected Republicans, they may not like trump, but it's a big thing to vote for a guy who's going to pack the Supreme Court with a Bunch of Democrats and change. Get rid of the head of the third branch of government and. That's so I I do think people are still wrestling with some of that and that will see a tightening and if it gets tighter, you know as as tight as we saw with trump and hillary, then he's back in business but the one caveat to that is don't forget what happened. Last time was a couple of days before the election Jim Komi came out with there's news hidden documents on the computer. Osdene has them and Anthony Weiner was. Back. In the news because he was harboring them and that's how they found Imbaba and that was a huge game changer for trump. I mean I I remember being on the set with Sean Hannity coming on after the Kelly file was done and he had been saying like I can't quite get him to to seven getting to sixty seven I can't go get him to seventy came in the studio that night and he goes he's back. He's back. So we'll see if there's an October surprise, it really helps them like that. But right now he does he's got some ground make up for sure. What was pretty amazing is that if you look at some the polling data on the underlying issues trump really in like a normal election cycle should be walking away with this thing. There was a Gallup poll that came out this week that showed fifty six percents of Americans said they're better off now than they were four years ago, which is normally the key question when you are having a reelection raises are you better off now than you were four years ago? There's a the same poll. Showed that forty nine percents of Americans said that they like trump's policies as opposed to forty six percent of Americans who like Joe Biden's policies, and you're just getting just absolutely swamped in the in the national pulling and it does lend support to the idea that many of us have been saying on the conservative side of the offer a long time, which is that the trump administration in terms of performance has been quite good. If we could just somehow you know pair away all of the. Affect, which is what a lot of the fans seemed like. This would not be a close race and he would actually be winning at this point. Yeah I know, but you know what it there's no question. Trump does a lot of self inflicted wounds. You know like tweeter calling calling Kamala Harris a monster that's not smart. That's not smart politics. Who are you gonNA reach what was happening at home in suburban Philadelphia is going to be like, yeah. Now I'm voting for him you know. The goal is to widen the tent at this point widen, and there's no more unnecessary appeals to his base there with him. So like just a little bit wider and like just a little bit of self restraint I, don't have any problem with all like the helicopter ride to the hospital after our to the White House after Kobe that that's just trumping his dramatic self. But I will say especially having watched this race as more of consumer over the past two years as opposed to anchor. The he is fighting the media. He does have a third enemy in this and he recognized it early on and he knew he had to demonize the media make them quote the enemy? But they actually are his enemy and you know you know that the press coverage of has been ninety percent negative and continues to be there completely unfair to him, and there are still very fair minded people out there consuming the news, not understanding that still trusting what they're hearing on CNN and I I think it's been a huge problem for trump. If he loses I, think the media will have had a lot to do with it. So let's talk about that. So I want to kind of re frame and talk about your career in the media because you've really been able to experience media from all sides you went from being. Sort of a local reporter, all the way up to the biggest anchor on Fox News, and then you moved over to the so called mainstream media and you worked in those halls. So I WANNA talk about. How the media runs from all these different perspectives, we'll talk about that in just one second but we need to talk about life insurance. It is Halloween. This month and Policy Juniors would love to mark the occasion by making something less scary life insurance. Now, shopping for life insurance can seem daunting task policy. Genius makes it easy. They combine cutting edge insurance marketplace with help from licensed experts to save you time and money right now, you could say fifty percents or more by using policy jeans to compare life insurance when you're shopping for a policy that. Could last for more than a decade those savings really start to add up. So here's how it works I. You head over to Palestinian dot com minutes you can work out how much coverage you need, and you can compare quotes from top insurance to find your best price policy. Genius will compare policies starting at as little as one dollars a day. You might even be eligible to skip that in-person medical exam, which is super convenient once you apply policy, genius handles all the paperwork and the red tape, the best part they work for you not the. Insurance Company if any speed bumps during the application process, they'll take care of everything for you. There's a reason policy has a five star rating across over sixteen hundred reviews on trust pilot and Google. So if you need life insurance head on over to policy genius Dot Com right now to get started, remember you could say fifty percents or more by comparing quotes policy genius when it comes to insurance, it's nice and super important to get it. Right. Let's talk about your media career because a lot of people don't actually know your background they just know. That you're really famous and that you're really popular, but they don't know kind of your early beginnings. So how did you get to be you know Megan Kelly? WHO's on Fox News which is where most people I think on the conservative side of the Alpha? Well, I used to be a lawyer I'm still a lawyer, but I used to be a practicing attorney and I did that for about nine and a half years and then was miserable realized I. Know You know the experience I lasted a little longer than than you did in the game but You know I really loved it. I like you had a humble background and for me becoming Megan Kelly esquire it was such an ego boost. I was so proud of myself I thought you were going to take me seriously now you know I didn't go to Harvard went to Albany but still I'm just saying like As, a young woman coming up nobody in my family was a doctor, a lawyer or anything like that. So it was like, okay, this is something. So I held onto it a lot longer because it meant something to me to me as a human. But over and over and over usually so many years you can spend that unhappy in doing what you're doing and it wasn't because of my law firm of my colleagues, it was just the job itself is is pretty soul crushing and the grind of it was. I just couldn't anymore. So. What happened was I actually went to visit a friend of Mine in Boston who has zero she's a nurse and she was living not very well off and we had such a good time and I was just reminded of my own routes like I don't need all this money I am totally happy with my friend in the bar getting fifty cent beers like I'm good. This is kind of what I need and nothing much more. And I came back Chicago and after a series of events, I, just decided I was going to try to do something else one thing led to another a woman in my guitar class worked at the WMA CUE, which is the Chicago for NBC she offered help me a resume tape I did it I cold called a bunch of news directors. I wound up walking the tape in to the Office of Bill Lord Down in Washington because my husband and I, my first husband had had moved Baltimore at that point. And the poor sucker put me on TV and I. I did it part time while practicing law for about a year and then I gave my tape to commute at Fox and they hired me in the DC Bureau and so what what was it like working as a as a reporter as opposed to working sort of the anchor because you again, you've worked in a bunch of these different roles. I loved it. Honestly that was some of my most fun times in journalism. It was great because when I first got hired I thought I was going to be more of a legal correspondent and maybe commentator and I was getting ready to go. I was GonNa work just Fridays just to begin I still practicing law and I said to billboard because the first day was a day when hurricane Isabel or Isabelle was coming through and I was like Oh you don't need me right That has nothing to do with my skills and he was like if you don't have a Ranko, a rain slicker, rain boots, you better get him get in here. Like Oh God. So I go in that they didn't put me on the air that night but I I went in sat in the control room is the first time I'd ever been in a control room which was so chaotic breaking news night like that. You've got reporters all over and they're getting blown around by the Hurricane Lake Wins and I will never forget. I'll clean it up for your audience, but there was this one guy they were trying to get him on his name was Erik Hong he's reporter and they couldn't get them on their company you come to you and then somebody other feed came in and and they couldn't get on the EP yelled at him you're not getting on Wjla. They have to like Oh my God. It's like a crazy environment in here. And that really was an appropriate introduction to news, which is it's it's ugly behind the scenes and it's not highbrow in any way. And I, it was a good introduction because tell you this man. When I first started at Fox I was frustrated because. There's no achieving perfection in the news. It's just you can't. You don't have enough time. You don't have staff and it's not the way news works. But in the law, you can come near perfection in your brief in your argument in your presentation. Everyone looks good all the time and I was frustrated. And I remember talking to Kim you and I was like you know it's it's hard because I am used to sort of the American Airlines First Class Cloth Napkin real silverware service to my audience to my clients and she goes, yeah, we're southwest airlines. And shoes right it was just you gotta get. You gotta get a little grittier if you're going to go into news and especially Cable News and as it turns out that wound up suiting me just fine. So when he started off, you're doing the sort of objective news stuff and then obviously moved into Kelly file in which case your perspective was allowed to come out a little bit more. So what was the? Difference between doing those two things because we see now this complete merger of the two, obviously look at CNN where they promote Chris Cuomo as objective news anchor or Don Lemon as an objective news anchor. But you made a pretty stark division in your own career from objective news reporter to Megan Kelly the Kelly file where your perspective was incredibly clear pretty open about it. What what was the difference between those two roles? Well I. Mean I think that you can. You can maintain your journalistic read by being open and honest about what you're opining on and when it's opinion and what you won't apply on. You know I don't understand being calling yourself a credible news anchor and going out there openly ripping on president trump and everything he does every night and calling him. A bad man and evil and racist and like that's not reporting. That's that's pure opinion and I feel like you go there and you you can no longer call yourself a straight news reporter. However, I was never hesitant to call somebody who is driving two hundred miles an hour down the highway while a woman pushing her baby in a baby stroller initiate. And I think that's sort of. What distinguished me from some other people on the air I would take more editorial risks like that on what I considered commonsense issues that weren't incredibly divisive and what my my main commitment was was to the facts and when people veered off line. When it came to the facts, I always hit them in the head. It was like get back stay right state in the right lane, and that's how this discussion is going to go and so I think. I mean I'm seeing now with the black lives matter narrative like if you just stick with the fax, like what are the numbers when it comes to police shootings what? What are the racial divisions? What does it where the crime statistics people freak out these just want you to say what they want you to say. But. As you know facts don't care about your feelings. There's somebody really smart always says and I'm in that lane I I don't care if you don't like it. These are the facts and we can have a reasonable argument unless we stick to that. So I think it sort of stuck out a bit as like she's different and she she saying she police it's like well, if the facts are defensive of them then yes, I guess so I'm defending the facts. Anyway that's sort of how it went and I always tried to hold onto my. Like. Even when trump was coming up and He was very controversial latter. Republicans didn't like him. I was never out there night after night being like he's terrible. Hugged the Republicans. Do this. I would just report on him fairly then I defended him on a lot of the BS being thrown at him and then when he did something really. Crazy like saying judge curiel couldn't decide his trump university case because he was Hispanic heritage I hit him. As a lawyer, I always felt comfortable giving my opinion. So anyway, it's it's a bit of a hybrid approach, but I would submit it. It looks nothing like what we're seeing now in the media with people like, Don. Lemon. Who's just a joke and Chris Cuomo who's much more worried about his muscles than he is about the facts I just can't watch CNN anymore and I'm angry about it because I used to like CNN but those days are gone. So let's talk about your career. At Fox News obviously you've been involved in pretty much every high profile Fox News Story for the last ten years and and that really began with mean. Now in retrospect Roger Ailes, who obviously was a genius of what he did at Fox News but also happen to be it turns out like a really terrible person. So what exactly was your relationship with Roger Ailes and and what was your perspective on how he ran Fox News? You know can I start with this? I want to start with this because was Roger. Taylor person he was a flag man was deeply flawed man he was also in some ways a great man. And I remember talking to a friend of mine who's in pr she's a Democrat but I remember saying you know what should I say when people ask me whether he was awful or read that? I have really mixed feelings about it and she said, you just say was terrible. That's it to say was terrible. And I. The truth is I. It's more nuanced than that. You know. I can't speak to all these guys have gone down. It's I. Think it's really hard to see how Harvey? Weinstein. Could be a great guy But in Rogers case, I spent enough time with him that I know how magnanimous he was how what good care he took of so many employees or too strong leader. He was how clever he was what a Patriot he was how much he loved the Armed Forces and did so much for them. I just it's hard to completely write him off as awful because of this other side even though the other side is indefensible. So just to start with that when when he first hired me, it was we got along well, I knew right from the start he was sort of body and frankly so am I so I I didn't judge that I as you know I don't speak the Queen's English and I'm totally fine with twelve year old boy humor and I. It's tough to offend me. So we we got along great and I kinda liked that about him as I would later find out much better than the alternative of like you know the broadcast world of like everyone us is awful. and. Then he started saying sort of taking up his office and the the conversations veered because it'd be like two hour sessions where you go in there and talk to him, and he would always locked the door which is. You know you don't want your boss lock your door when you go in there and. It just sort of more from body talk to directly sexual talk directed at you. And as a woman, you're sitting there like Oh God. Like. I want this like I can see what he's doing and you're like I don't want this because I'm making I'm making my bones here like I am reporting well, and breaking news is right during the Duke Lacrosse scandal that I was covering for Fox and. Breaking a lot of stories on that. And you can what what you're thinking in your head is I'm going to have to reject him at some point, and then my couriers derailed like it's over, no man wants to be rejected by a woman and no man that is rejected by woman then has good feelings about her after the facts these are facts of human nature and so when you suddenly realize the relationship is morphed for him into a different lane and your slower in this lane, you're scared you know you know what's coming and really all you want to do is like shrink down to your smallest self and hope he stops noticing you which is. Directly be opposite of what you're hoping in the professionally ready you want notice you. So very complicated and I. for the longest time just pretended I. Wasn't hearing what it was hearing. I've slept at off. and. Then it got to the point where I can no longer pretend because he grabbed me and try to make out with me three times in his office and I basically ran out the door. That stuff do nor. Long Story Short Ben after that I just ignored him. I did report this to a supervisor at Fox News who gave me the advice of just ignore them. He's going through a rough time in his marriage. You'll be fine and I was happy to have that that advice like, okay. Took a shot that men do that and that was kind of the end of it, and then when the Gretchen Carlson came up and there's no love lost between me and Gretchen I am not fan of hers and I don't think she's a fan of mine But the question was being put to people directly. Is He capable of this. And everyone is rushing to the camera saying he's not capable no way. It's not possible. not this man I was like. I don't know about that I feel uncomfortable and then I was told by somebody close to Roger on his team that they had managed to limit the investigation into him to just immediate small circle of people and that her immediately Gretchen immediate small circle of people on her show, which would not include any talent which would include sort of any of the more prominent females at the company. And that was when I knew I had to come forward like I I didn't know what he was but I knew they had to take a real look at it they they need a real investigation. And that's that's what they wound up doing. so He fell. He died not long after that and I cried when he died and I talked to Janice Dean, who is in the whole thing with me we were shoulder to shoulder on all of it. She had a story with him. and. To this day. I, feel sad about and I feel sad about what's going on at Fox because I think it's a lot different than it used to be when he at the helm. and so I think we really lost something we lost something when he died and when he left Fox but. It was because of Roger. That's what people lose. Sight of who get mad at me or get mad of the women come forward. He he cost himself and the rest of us his leadership. So anyway, it's still a sad subject for me and. You know one that's just not it's not black and white, but it does go to media bias in a different way, which is, of course the Hollywood then goes ahead and makes an entire movie based on this in which portrayed by Shirley's Ron, and they never even bothered to call you up and ask for any of your input on the script. So they're telling largely your story without ever having asked you a single question I. I want to get your thoughts on that. Well. They clearly stole my book. I mean I when I saw the movie is like Oh. Somebody's been reading my mu- settled for more. It's still available online. And so I was like, well, that's interesting. Nobody offered me the. Check for that which I wouldn't have taken actually, I did get a purchase offer for the book and I said no, but it wasn't from them. so I don't know. I also had mixed feelings about the movie which yeah, had no involvement with, but I thought okay it's good to shine a light on sexual harassment because there's still a lot of young women out there who have no clue how to deal with that when it happens to them and I I like that piece of it it's like here's a here's what happened here take from it what you will, but I knew they're going to portray Fox. News as just some parody of itself and that they were GonNa rip on people I loved in ways that were unfair and indeed they did Brian Kilmeade in particular took it on the Chin and away that was really unfair really unfair. they don't care right they and they made Roger they try to get to some of his humanity, but they really made him look like a monster. and. I watched it. Ben And it was really just it was painful for me for so many reasons the ones I've outlined and also because. I lost a lot of friends at Fox resulted that there were Roger Loyalists in the building who just couldn't forgive me and It still makes me upset to this day they they just don't understand. So you know, you move on but the media of course has they love to take down. Roger. AILES and they played up that story way more in some of the other stories of Democrats falling and there's no accident. You know there's no. There's a reason that there were all these films about Roger Ailes Ray like there was the showtime one and then there was the bombshell one. There was some other third third one me one little film about. Harvey that got no numbers that was like quietly released like, okay. He was a serial rapist. So you tell me when it's bigger and then meanwhile they somehow continue to portray you as the villainous no matter what the situation is. So let's talk about sort of what happened on Fox News that prompted your moved to NBC. So you're Fox News you've got these enormous ratings I remember because you were kind enough to have me on your show at the time. King at. Thank you I appreciate. Your show and and then the two thousand sixteen election cycle comes about and the whole trumpian split happens in which everybody is divvied up into your either pro-trump or anti-trump. There is no middle and in which trump took a personal offense to you asking him difficult questions specifically about his treatment of women aren't asking about that in just one second. But first let's talk about something really important. You can do for yourself or your family I'm talking about preserving those family memories mean out in the garage, right? Not yet old film reels got VHS tapes even have a VCR anymore. Of course, you don't have a bunch of old pictures, none of them are digitized, but you need them in digital format so that you can move around with them. You can view them on. Your computer so you can print new copies. 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Over two hundred trained technicians, everything is digitized by hand at their fifty thousand square foot processing campus in Chattanooga Tennessee rediscover those glory days by digitizing all of your irreplaceable heirlooms with legacybox. GO TO LEGACYBOX DOT COM Slash Shapiro getting incredible forty percents off your first order by today, take advantage of this exclusive offer. Then send in the legacybox. When you're ready go to LEGACYBOX DOT COM Slash Shapiro if forty percent while supplies last. So, let's talk about the the trump election cycle. So I you are tapped to moderate some of the Republican debates and you of course, ask trump some pretty tough questions about his treatment of women in the past, which he says that he only did it to Rosie O'Donnell and such, and then he gets very angry at you and you are one of the first into the dunk tank when it comes to if Donald Trump is angry than all of his supporters are also angry I and this turns into a very polarized environment for you at Fox. Now I wonder if you talk about that a little bit. Well I was a hard time, and in the moment I wasn't sure if he was really angry or if he was just using me as just another storyline which trump likes to create and now I think he was genuinely angry in response to that question I. Don't even think it had so much to do with the question itself as he felt betrayed by me he thought that I was at Fox I liked him which I did like him but you know I like them. All. I. Like Ben Carson to. Accuse him of being an idiot in my question to him that night. But he didn't complain rate the way the way trump did You know it's it's not being bag. It's a political debate for the presidency like you're gonNA give your fastball and for the record trump handled it very well after was just fine like say what I say people are sick of this nonsense and we have fun. You don't like it too bad. Great. That's quick. Vintage trump. So if he hadn't chosen to make a thing out of it, it wouldn't have become a thing, but it was very hard because you could feel the fracturing of the audience. It was sort of at that point the more sort of Trumpian wing with at that point was more the Breitbart wing and then the more national review type Republicans who are like old school. Republicans who Didn't they were more Mitt Romney types or really just sort of mainstream. It didn't have to be Mitt Romney thing and Roger was really desperate to keep those two factions together as our audience and did not want this war which is already happening. It wasn't just because of me it was already happening in the Republican Party I just I was a piece of it because of trump. and. I felt like people were misunderstanding I wanted people to go back and just look at the debate in in whole and see the questions that we asked of all of them. They were all really hard and they were great and the Republicans did great that night they was the highest rated debate ever right at that point. Anyway. There was no standing him down. So I just decided to ignore it ignored as much as I could, but it just blew up my life. You know it was like. It wasn't like mean tweets, which are like Oh that's not nice. It was security threats like people showing up at my house in the middle of the night and scary stuff you know like getting my face when I'm on the street with my kids you know like some strange man comes at approaches you and yells at you on the streets of New York and a threatening manner with your children like. As he was a woman especially, you're kind of like I. Don't know where where's this going and what am I going to do if this escalates you never want to give anybody. videotape, right? You don't have a fight. He certainly don't have a physical fight, but there's a lot of that and I didn't understand it was like a tough question. So anyway, I think trump saw me in that storyline is a way of telegraphing to his base that there was no-one he wouldn't stand up to establishment media Fox anchor like Fox. He wasn't beholden to Fox. Roger ailes not beholden to him and I think that's why trump's poll numbers went up after that whole thing. It wasn't like a verdict necessarily on me or Fox are the question it was a verdict on I like this guy who doesn't give a damn about what people say about him he's going to buck convention. He's GonNa wreck everything and I that's what we need. We need the guy in that package to go to Washington and record system that isn't working for us. And that's where it landed. I will say for the record as mean as things got online and you know people write terrible things about me and so on. My ratings never went down in fact, the only went up they never suffered. Yeah I mean I think that that that is one of the great laws there too great lies I. Think about the take on trump particularly in the right wing media twenty sixteen was that I if you went anti trump did. So specifically for the ratings which was crazy and the other lie was that if you was that if you went anti trump, you'll lose. Your entire base. These guys were being maintained at the exact same time was that you were doing it for the ratings and the other it would kill your ratings if you're a critical of trump and it turns out that people can hold more than one thought in their head at the exact same time moving on from kind of where you were. See you decide that. You're basically ready to move on and what were the factors that went into the decision making because at the time you were the highest rated show on Fox News. You're the biggest anchor on on the right, and now you've decided to move on and go not only to network news whenever and NBC. But also to to do something completely different something much softer sort of. Return to your journalistic roots a little bit what prompted that decision well, I mean not unlike when I left the law I was I went head first into a brick wall of unhappiness and I know people the Kelly file I actually loved the Kelly file to I. Miss It I. Wish I could I wish I could watch a show like that now as a news consumer But. I wasn't happy at all. In my personal life I you know the life of a cable news anchor especially, prime time news anchor is not pleasant. It's not good I don't know a lot of really joyful cable news prime time hosts. It's it's it's like working in the Coliseum for a living everyday is another fight another attack another person calling you something awful and then having. Big. Meetings about and what are we going to do and you know this isn't who you are and you know you're based understands your base audience understands it's not you but got gotta fight a war and then your kids are seeing this stuff and it's like Oh my God see you gotta get a thick skin but you also do have to devote a lot of time to controversy and then you know now it's to the point where you're getting attacked by all the other news anchors to, and then after the Roger Thing I was Getting attacked by some people internally also is fighting fighting fighting nonstop. And In. The meantime you look at my home life and like you have a very tight family, I have I. I want him getting a divorce my first husband back in two thousand six and I met met married. Doug my husband. Now we have a great marriage and we've worked really hard for it and I. I'm proud of it and we have three great and I wasn't seeing any of them basically wasn't mothering my own children. And you can say it's sexist I don't care what anybody says it. It wasn't. I. Wasn't happy. I wanted mother my own kids and I know this is sexist to say that I think women have a have a special desire to be with their children maybe more so than a lot of men. That's happens to be my belief and for me, it was insurmountable I was not able to be sort of the Wall Street. Dad who went to work at six am and came home at eleven pm and never saw his children during the day I couldn't do it. and. My kids were little Ben when I left the Kelly file, they were three, five and seven. They were Babes I. I could still be there I hadn't missed the whole thing. So it's like on the one hand my professional life is really unhappy and I'm not enjoying it on the other hand, my home life which I really want to be at is not available to me. You know it's not it's not there so. I ask myself what do I WanNa do what I WANNA do, and Fox offer me a bunch of money to stay and I just thought there's no there's not enough money i. don't WanNa live like this. I don't care I I could go back and have the fifty cent beers like my nurse friend in Boston I don't care now. I didn't have to do that because NBC may offer but. The reason I chose them. This is where I went. Wrong. was they were like you can do a morning show. You can be home by noon to be with your kids and we'll still use you on the big nights like election night so on. So I could still of do my politics coverage when I wanted. Mike All Right, that's a decent compromise looking at the landscaping back. Then I'm like I'M NOT GONNA go to CNN I'm definitely going to MSNBC RACE so those out so. Kind of leaves the three main networks for something more reasonable and there's really not a lot going on at CBS ABC did offer me a role but I didn't find it that attractive and then there was NBC that said, here's this thing you can do something with maybe more uplifting to the world and then go home be with your kids I'm like, okay. I'm GONNA try it. I'll try something new I'll exercise new muscle. and. It was the most stressful year and a half in my life and You know I was I'll tell you this. A lot of my fans have been like hated the ending you know wasn't fair but I will say We'll see when you're dying death by a thousand cuts. Sometimes the big machete is a mercy. You know that's how it was for me. Yeah. I mean from the outside and as somebody with whom. I consider as friends you know watching how NBC News set you up to fail I mean they they say you have from the very outset almost I mean the very first show that you did. You did pretty hard hitting interview with Alex Jones and it was clear from all of the promotional materials that you're not going to be soft Alex Jones and then the entire media decided that in fact, you'd become a propaganda on behalf Alex Jones in the media and this is like the very first episode and Alex Jones is a pretty Important figure at the time because trump had been talking with him and had been doing his show and all of this sort of stuff and the media set it up as here's Megan Kelly who's now promoting a consp- crazed conspiracy theorist NBC didn't really defend you in any way. They just sort of left out there to hang and to me from the outside look like, okay. Here's an early indicator of how this thing is going to go all the conservative preconceived notions about what exactly it's like in the world of mainstream media. Our correct. The Alex Jones was was nuts because it was like suddenly new rule was imposed where we only get to interview the good guys. That's it. No journalists can interview me well, like Diane Sawyer Interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer and there wasn't this like as far as I know Alex Jones has it hasn't eaten anybody. Okay. So spare me. Like CNN did an in depth. Interview with Alex. Jones. Right after the newtown massacre was right after he was saying all this crazy stuff they didn't even touch on most of it they they give total. Pass. The new. York Times interviewed Alex Jones I could go on nothing no said Boo but Megan Kelly wants to do it and it's like the national enquirer had cover with me on. At the time that with the caption. Most, hated mom in. America back Oh my God and my neighbor down it we have a house of the Jersey shore my neighbor she ran in their journey was kitty and she took all the magazines down and she was like, how dare you she shops in here with her children she was getting all the magazines throwing in her car. So it was other worldly because I was like, I mean you can go down the list Charles Manson all these murderers who have been. Interviewed on television but somehow Alex Jones was a bridge too far and I one hundred percent stand by that interview they pointed to the fact that some of the newtown families didn't want it to happen and that I understand. But the truth of that is six of the Newtown families objected and nineteen were either very pro or at a minimum neutral. So that didn't get covered but you can't. You can't do news coverage that way based on on who Mike set you have. To do the news and he wasn't the news and trump was circulating publicly Alex Jones is information and stuff from Info wars and it was high time somebody took a hard look at him and I think it's pretty quickly after that trump actually stop trafficking as much with Info or so obviously, it had it had some impact. So what was the relationship like with the NBC executives because it really did feel like they were hanging out to dry like they put you out. There and then within five minutes of putting you out there it felt like they just completely disappeared in like. Normally a network defends its own anchors. Normally network will actually protect its own anchor and you see this with anchors who are incredibly controversial things. I mean Fox News routinely will defend Tucker if Tucker says something controversial CNN continues to defend its anchors NBC really just sort of it felt like they cut you off at the knees looking at it from the outside. Let, me put it to you this way. There are very few network executives as steely spine as Lachlan Murdoch Roger Ailes. Scott J Wallace very few precious view. And You know why talked about Roger earlier you know when I was at Fox, he would one hundred percent have your back. If any controversy came your way, the first thing he would do is go run in front of the bullet and take it for you. and. If I, if I may put it this way, not every naked network executive is brave or as strong or as smart as that and. That's all to say. So looking at your tenure in the mornings in NBC, the long knives were out very early in terms of everybody looking at the ratings the ratings we're not good and of course, they were saying that from the very beginning when normally when you transition anchor to another there, of course is the sort of lead time before you can start to build ratings. So what happened in do you think about the ratings and and how much do you think it was about politics? Well? We will be we were building in their ratings and our numbers were going up and our advertising revenue was going way up like we were making more money on that show then the show had been making prior. So the advertisers loved it and we did we needed some time I talked to Hoda and Kathy Lee about their show, and it was a bomb in the ratings. The first couple of years a bomb but they let him stay on the start actually doing positive readings until five years into the GIG. So especially, morning television, it takes some time. and. We were on a good trajectory. But of course, we hadn't gotten it done in the short time that I was on the air there I. DO think you know I'll say this. I was out there defending brick cavanaugh a lot on NBC I was and remain horrified by what happened to him. I thought it was grossly unfair I I gave Christine Blasi Ford a fair hearing both on the air and in my own mind I listened to her I thought it was worthwhile hearing. What she had to say I had no problem with like. Sizing her up everybody who came after that was a joke everybody and. Not. Only we we all go to Jewish sweat nick the one who made the ridiculous gang rape stuff through Michael Abernathy, which is a farce. But when I at NBC People Forget this one. They went to air with a report that breath Kavanagh's old girlfriend that the girlfriend's mother. Remembered her daughter telling her that break haven't had shoved her into a brick wall back when they were dating several years ago and they they put it was all anonymously sourced. They were just saying somebody has told us this is the mother's saying this. They put that on the air keep minus network that would not put on the Harvey Weinstein allegations even though they had rose McGowan and other women on the record saying he was Predator right rose McGowan was on the record saying he raped me we don't have our facts that we can't go with it. Now you got like anonymous person saying the mother of somebody said she the woman wants set is triple. Here's say. They put on the air somebody else winds up tracking down the actual girlfriend who was like hundred percent untrue. None of that ever happened. He's an amazing guy that's the kind of reporting that was going on about Brett and I was there trying to be my literally self and look at the facts and I'll just say this it was like the old sesame street song like one of these things is not like the others. And I think I felt that while I was there. So in a second I wanna ask you about the controversy of course that that was really the excuse for them to get rid of. It was pretty obvious what was going on right there and ask you about that in just one second first. Let's talk about protecting your online data. Now when you use the bathroom, always close the door behind you, right you don't want ranchos looking at you. That'd be weird strange. So why would you let people book in? At your Internet activity using the Internet Without Express VPN. 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So if you're like me and you believe that your Online activity is your business secure yourself today and express VPN dot com slash Ben use my exclusive link E. S. P. R. S. VPN dot com slash Ben you can get extra three months for free. That's VPN DOT com slash. Ben. So obviously all of this culminates in one of the great foe controversies of time in which you're talking about the latest black face controversy in which somebody is caught years ago wearing black face, I can't remember what the context was. But you make the absolutely arguable claim that it is different to dress up as Michael, Jackson for Halloween than it is to dress up in one thousand, nine, hundred style black phase in order to mock black people, and this results in NBC News basically using it as an excuse to get rid of you. Now this is so noncontroversial that I've point blank asked basically every Democrat I can find about this ranging from one Williams to two members of the general public and they're like, yeah, I, mean that is perfectly obviously true because anyone who has a sentient. Capacity prefrontal CORTEX understands. There's a difference between I dressed up as a person of color whom I admire am dressing up as a person of color to mock people of Color. There's a different scene Ralph northern dressing up as Michael Jackson and between Ralph Northern and dressing up as stereotypical black person. Andrew. KKK member. So like the these are very obviously different. You make this perfectly obvious point a point also made by joy behar white notice still works for network, news and and you are basically tossed out the window for it while they proclaimed that you're racist. I mean what was all of that? Well I mean you you have basically right I was I was on the what happened in terms of my presentation I what happened was a real housewife Luanda was in the news for she dress like Diana Ross and she tinted her skin she actually just put on extra self tanner So she did look darker than she normally does and she had you know looked like Diana Ross with a wig and address. And they were killing her keep my by the way. This is this is a show produced by Bravo, which is owned by NBC. Universal and it was pre taped and they put it on the air. They put her on the air with the you know the tinted skin so that that was their decision. She got a lot of blowback and I wanted to talk about 'cause we were talking about all the crackdowns on Halloween costumes. We started that day with with the discussion about how over in the UK, they sent out some university, a ban on. Any costume. That would that would look like a cowboy because they didn't want to offend American cowboys. In response to which every American cowboy was like STF you. We don't need your help. Right in and they actually suggested to to people that you might consider dressing as something noncontroversial perhaps. As a letter or a number. That's where we've gotten on Halloween. And I was talking about how like the standards for what offensive change and not everybody understands when they're when they're walking into something that suddenly they're doing something that's awful and I pointed to Lou endless option like this woman she wore she's trying to honor Diana Ross and you know everything got blown up and I said thirty years ago when I was a kid, the point I was trying to make was you do that in like there wasn't a lot of blowback and Suddenly that became controversial. And then I said, you know when you look when I look at her I look I see a woman who's trying to look just like Diana Ross, she loves animals she's trying to honor her so I didn't really say this is fine I said this is what I see. Tell me if I'm wrong. That's it. That is all that happened that day and then when I look I look at the newspaper headlines it was basically like, Megan. Kelly calls for a return to Minstrel show black face and did the show in a KKK Hat Yai like Oh. But. By that point, I was used to being misrepresented by the press like everything they had said about me over the past year was untrue and I tried to just take the high road and not respond, and that was also what I felt I. I needed to do in that latest incident I went back on the air the next day after being told by everybody there that I was hideous and then I said something terrible and did what I think is right which is when you think you've genuinely offended a bunch of people you should say you're sorry. And So I did and then I had a panel on to talk about black face, the history, black face and sort of get to the question I was asking, which is, how do we go from A to B right and like why is it people are associating skin tinting a modern day costume meant to honor with this really controversial practice years ago, and I had a couple of black guests who explained that in their opinion on it and they may not have persuaded people, but it was an interesting discussion. And then I was never back on the air again after that show. So I think for me, it was frustrating not to really be able to talk about it I. Didn't I didn't know. I didn't think it would do me any good to come out and try to defend myself by saying at that point I did know that NBC. Put several shows on the air with people wearing black face I knew Jimmy Fallon had done it and a couple of other people there had done it, and of course, there'd been inkers wearing whiteface like lesser hole to win res- Bruce Jenner. And also, as the woman from what was it like? American. IDOL. One of those shows a Susan Boyle he went to Susan. Boyle. But I was like I don't WanNa start like firing at other anchors or other personnel like this. That's not the answer here and what I concluded was the people who are offended by this or have chosen to believe I'm a racist because it remarks that have been totally misrepresented or even if they think my actual remarks were were racist. They're not persuadable. These are these are not people who are open minded to me. So what's the point of just screaming into the void and the people who don't see any big deal of it don't don't need to be convinced they know who I am you know my actual audience both at NBC and Fox they know who I am they understood like this is something that was being used. It was being used against me by people who couldn't stand me. You know the the left who decided to generate this huge campaign, which might have otherwise just been a twitter campaign. Had it not had by in elsewhere in certain circles of power? but when all was said and done Ben I was okay because I walked away I did fine and I was free. I was free and I I've never been through an experience like I I was. I went through there and I I mean the whole year, not just that end and I was relieved to just be out to be back at my home, which is safe with my husband and my kids and just take a breath to to try to regroup because it was just such a shocking jarring upsetting turn of events in my life. And I did it take a while to sort of heal from that to be honest with you are not going to try to pretend made a steal it was. It was hard I shed a lot of tears. But I got through it and I think like anything you go through these things and hopefully if you're smart, you don't get bitter and you get better get smarter. And I think maybe one of the reasons I went through that or at least take away from it is. I get the whole cancel culture thing in a way I otherwise wouldn't have I was never in favor of it but. I worry because obviously I'm financially secure I'm fine financially and. I'm a public figure. So I landed on my feet and I have my own company now. So that's good. But what happens when this happens to a civilian? Somebody who doesn't have that kind of financial security doesn't have that kind of platform of national name built up already. I feel like I need to help them. I. Feel a responsibility to call bs on what's happening to people in our country right now I am worried about our country. I'm worried about the kids who get this teenagers who get maligned as awful big. It's racists xenophobes transpose just for having an opinion that may not go with the you know the mainstream now. How the media shames people out of an honestly held her a religiously held opinion on controversial issues. And it's going to get worse unless people speak up. So we have to find a way. We have to find a way of allowing that to happen without people getting fired all the time. And I don't know exactly what the answer is. I know that like Douglas Murray. He says, you know when your company comes to you and says, you've gotTa take critical, Race Theory training. You have to look at them and say, I refuse to allow you to rewrite Shelley's me my company or my country I refuse it takes a lot of guts that's tough but we gotta figure it out and so that's one of the reasons why I came back and I'm doing my podcast and I I have my say I have a platform where I can make these points. I I will say that is. A, certain sort of perverse short on Friday it's it's entertaining to watch lefty zone on some of this stuff. My my favorite story around that actually a surrounds that incident with you in which Washington Post employees dressed up as you try and mock you is racist and then they were maligned by the other people at the party as racist and there was like a full Washington Post investigation with hero. At pictures of the people complained about it was like the big beautiful photos is like well, okay. You WanNa take this logical extreme I. Guess we're I guess we're going to get there You know what's funny because it's like, okay. She wants to go as me trying to make a point about black face she wants to go as me. I've never worn black race unlike half of Hollywood and NBC. Why wouldn't she goes Justin? Trudeau, why wouldn't she goes Jimmy Kimmel why wouldn't she goes like joy? Behar, why would you go like those people actually wore it. So she's a little off the mark to start with but man she pays she pays even she she she was she was trying to make a she's trying to make a far left wing point that was false about you and got and got by the machine just just as much. So I thought that that was a beautifully Iraq. Outcome. Scenario when you talk about what's going to change a, it seems to me that unfortunately it's going to have to get worse before it gets better not because the left is going to stop it just because the the left is they found that the best thing that they can do in Oregon power is to wine allot and threaten a lot and then corporations particularly are so vulnerable to this sort of stuff. I mean just this week yelp decided that they were going to change their policy and so now if there is a complaint about a Restaurant that is reviewed by YELP and somebody says a racist thing happened Yelp will issue a warning on their website warning everybody like an in an abuse notice on their website without any evidentiary basis that this place has been reported for racist activity, and then they have a higher level where if a media outlet reports the story, then they call it now is something like a confirmed incidents of racism even if it's just the outlet reporting the allegation. So we now have major American companies who have the lives of other companies in their hands basically. Being willing to throw out any allegation whatsoever by any Rando. The right gets whiny as the left or at least attempts to utilize its market power in the same ways left which something I don't actually want Then I think this continue because corporations have an absolute interest in catering to the whiny EST among us and we have to somehow get through this because we believe in the First Amendment in this country and we believe in in saying how we feel and having a diversity of opinion and when you get tough issues being able to discuss them that's an American principal never before has been, we have a new way of thinking and You need to shut up you need to not speak about it at all. You just accept my new way of thinking or your awful period and canceled and maybe fired how insane is that we do need more of corporations with a backbone like I love it when the Wall Street Journal stood up to its employees who are like throwing some fit about this is heather McDonald op ed or some op Ed in in their newspaper like factual, and we shouldn't have done this and then like eighty employees who were like no, and the journals like I understand you're upset so anyway. That's would've players need to do. Truly, like the You understand, you're in the business of news like journalism where we have to cover facts and when do opinions we have to offer both sides and It may have set you even in hiring for my company. Now, because I've just launching a new company I'm like I'm talking to the young people saying look let's get this straight up front if you are not in favor of the full discussion like UN censored discussion of some of those controversial controversial things happening in the country right now, you shouldn't work here. If you're somebody who needs five compliments before I have to tell you what you did wrong you shouldn't work here. You need me to hold your hand when I tell you have to work on a Saturday you shouldn't work here. You're going to be challenging to be intellectually stimulated. You're GONNA have fun. You'RE GONNA learn you're gonNA grow get stronger, but it's not gonNA be easy right? More employers I think need to say that to their employees as opposed to like your special. You'll never be hurt. Your feelings will never be hurt and you can just go to your safe-space. If anybody says anything that doesn't completely comply with the way you want it to be said it's like I don't WanNa. Live in this world I don't want my kids to have to live in this world. So you're right we have to stand up and fight because users just be academia and it crept into. Hollywood. It took over news and now it's taken over corporate America not to mention half of sports. And if the if it's not even just the right because I know a lot of liberals who are totally against this nonsense, you know you look at the harpers letter but beyond that just like center left or quote unquote regular progressives like this nonsense either it's this far left contingent that has the loudest voice in the room. And people are listening to them because if you're the owner of corporation in somebody's running in there saying. Racist Racist Racist, and I'm hurt and this is like I feel unsafe and you make me unsafe. If you don't do what I'm asking you to do they're like, oh my God people didn't use to drop charges like that unless it was really serious. Now it's morphed over into you know. Whatever you you you come in and work with black hat instead of the white hat and somehow like you hurt somebody you've made them feel unsafe. One of the things on that front is I'm really interested to watch what happens with Joe Rogan over at spotify, right because you've already seen the revolt of some of the spotify employees against him, and he's basically like too bad pound sand and so far spotify had his back. So I, really hope they stay steely spine and continue to have his back and set a lesson for other companies that if you're going to be in the business especially of news and conversation, you have to be more open minded and even any other corporation needs to stand up for what are American principles are. This is not East Germany. So, let's talk about you know what it's like to be a woman in a in a position of higher responsibility and high power and high visibility. What do you think are sort of the special challenges that women face and when do you think that the allegations of sexism and the and the obstacles faced by women go too far I don't know if I can sum up all the challenges women face and you know a couple of sentences but there's no question. There are some and that's sort of what I'm seeing with the racial discussion we're having now there's no question. There is still racists here in the United States but I don't believe this is a racist country and I feel the same about sexism there's. No question that there are sexists here in the United States but we're not a sexist country at all. So you have to deal with it in a case by case basis, but I would say in general men control most halls of power. Most of the corporations they still control most political bodies and that does pose certain challenges for women that we have to figure out how to handle. The PRO vice presidential debate was interesting because I, think in the studies show that women get interrupted more than men like the boardroom the men will interrupt women mill, interrupt a man speaking and I've actually in the past Ben and big advocate and remain one of that tactic she used, which is just hand up I'm speaking and it does make people stop talking interrupting you but she over used it. And it was obviously a tactic and used it in a way when it's a debate, the guys allowed to jump in on the tail end of your thought. That's what a debate is. It's not like you're in front of a company saying this is how I'm GonNa handle this situation and all the guys are trying to jump in and that's when you're like Yo not done. She's in a debate like. They overcorrected for what happened at the first presidential debate. I wanted to hear more back and forth there was to antiseptic look no usually have the two minutes and are usually the two minutes like it they did. A lot of thoughts about the debates but. I'll say this about being a strong women woman, you have to do it. You have to do it unapologetically, and that leads to some consternation in in certain circles. People aren't necessarily looking at it as a strong woman who's unapologetic about it in a way that's favorable and I. think that's led to some problems in my own life. However, I my own my own approach to all of that has always been to not. Boo and WHO and whine about it just be better just keep going just work harder and now you you totally that's a sexist comment like screw you don't understand what most women are up against. Well, I think I understand pretty well, I didn't come from some fancy powerful family with big connections I'm self made entirely and so I do understand I understand how to get through a sexist encounter had a you know sort of as I said, the other day woman out, be my strong itself and handle handled tough circumstances. I don't believe in constant resort to victimization I could victimized. I don't like identity politics I. Don't like how people are making our lady parts what we're all supposed to be about or the people who WanNa make somebody's pigmentation what they're all about it's just it's it's completely disrespectful and diminishing There was one day at the end the Obama years where they invited like female reporters to come to the White House for like Woman Day and I was like I'll go to the White House when I get invited as a reporter that's when I'll go. I don't WanNa go because I'm getting like. Getting to check the box of being having the Ripe Genitalia sweat gets the. No I'm good. You call me when you want me for my brain, not from my lady parts and I just think we're getting away from that. Now it's just such a rush towards identity politics and victimization and finding your your posse who's also been victimized and. Empowerment and it's exactly the opposite it's disempowerment. So let's talk about the debates for a second since mentions you've moderated presidential debates Maybe you can evaluate how you think the debate moderators have performed as far, and it seems like obviously Chris Wallace had a tougher job considering the behavior during that debate season page had a much easier job considering that was one of the more. Polite antiseptic debates I've ever seen on national television. How do you think the moderators are doing? I think Susan Page did fine. It was boring I. I'm in favor of a spicier debate that's just my own approach to it but there was boring but fair I I didn't think she was unfair I went back and looked at the whole transcript of every question she asked and I was like it's fine right down the middle. You know her topics election probably leaned more left than if you had Fox News anchor doing it but that's okay. That's whatever people are used to that. It wasn't egregious Chris Wallace had a tough time and you know. I don't know if he'd planned for it. I'm surprised actually because when we prepare for our debates Fox, we used to have discussions about especially with trump. What if you won't shut up what if he tries to run over us? What if he won't stop interrupting like we talked about all of them we came up with game plans. So I don't know if he didn't do that or. If it was just at a level, he had never anticipated I. Happen I happen to believe in cutting the Mike and I think I wouldn't have been associated with the debate that didn't let me as the moderator control, the cameras and the mics because you and believe how fast they stopped talking when you you take back control of the camera on you and the mic on you. Then, they will start talking quickly. And you only have to do it. Once you know like like being a parent, you know you gotta like show your kid, you mean the threat one time and then they behave. So as long as you follow through on your threat, then every other time, the rest of the debate would have been much better if especially with trump if you going to lose the camera and loses Mike he he would have been more reasonable and then and then you go from there. Then you then it's a judgment call and kinch cut the guy off at every turn you want to see him going back and forth. That's a highlight of a debate. so I don't know I I love. It's for me. It's frustrating I love to get out there and do it myself but not this go round. Yet, what do you make of the complaints that I put out there that there's too much emphasis on trying to get a quote unquote objective journalists doing the actual debate questions that frankly I'd rather see a debate moderated by Sean Hannity and Rachel Maddow than watch the debate moderated by Susan Page because at least you know you're going to get the harshest version of like just have Sean Question Joe Biden have really maddow question Donald Trump and I think that'd be more interesting way more entertaining. I'm I'm against that somebody who's in the middle you know I don't want that select myself right out of the running but I understand the point and I actually think Maybe. The solution is to have a three person panel. You have sort of a straight news journalist who is objectively straight news not done them on somebody who's actually straight news There's still a few of us out there and then pundits from either side. The question is, would you have? Would you have Hannity question? Biden, would you haven't questioned trump I? Think you'd have to have them to question. Biden right and then you have maddow question trump and see how they do I think it'd be interesting. I? Think it'd be absolute war at the anchor. Desk. But it'd be. So in just one second, I WANNA ask you about how you Bel-. Install of this family you mentioned family before and being a mom and I want to hear about your perspective on balancing career and family because I think one of the great lies of the twentieth century is that everybody can have it all and obviously you have to find that balance but if you want to hear Megan Kelly. Answers. You have to daily remember head on over to daily wear dot com click join at the top of the page. You can hear the rest of our conversation over there well, Megan Kelly. It's always great to talk to you, and of course, go listen to Megan Kelly over a devil may care media make sure to check it out. Megan thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate. Thank lots of love. The Ben Shapiro show Sunday special is produced by Mathis, clever executive producer Jeremy Boring. Our technical director is Austin Stevens, and our assistant director is Pablo I'd Hausky associate producer nick she him. Our guests are booked like Caitlin maynard editing by Jim nichol audio is mixed by Mike Coral Meena hair and makeup is by Nika Geneva graphics by Cynthia and Ghulam. The Ben Shapiro show Sunday. Special is a daily wire production copyright daily wire twenty twenty.
Podcasting History and Future with Adam Curry PCI-211
"Welcome to your podcast in Sarah. My name is Todd Cochran of course, ain't joined by my co host. Mr Mike Del Mike do good todd. On Day yesterday. I didn't leave. I left the studio eleven thirty and it was back in here at eight thirty this morning. So I was a, it was a long one yesterday lots going on we I spent a lot of time live. You did it was a busy busy day today but. Anyway. Belated. Happy International Podcast Day which was yesterday. Yeah. That was that was a lot of fun. To hear a little later in the episode. That's right. So we had We have some news we got the best practices we bluebeard information. We've got cool interview. And very little support today so. Off So first things first I guess again, full disclaimer I am the founder of the People's choice podcast awards and we did have our people's choice podcast awards ceremony yesterday. That that was that was pretty slick and you just look at it the winners here only no one and that's a good sign. Yeah. It is a good sign and you know if I if I look in Levi can for those of you that are watching see if I can bring the the page up for IOS You you're listening to podcasts, words dot com, but the Adam Curry's people trace podcasts ward was won by how here with Jay of day six and this group cleaned up. I think they won three awards last night in Music TV may US four but they did really really well, the DAD's drinking. Bourbon. Win. Arts. Had wicked smart women. When the business category we had spit Mars podcast run when comedy. education went to curiosity daily entertainment category went. Here with with Jay of day six Games and hobbies was things I got wrong trivia government in organizations was outraged optimism and health was mental the podcast de stigmatize mental health. Kids and family went to fairy tales with granny Macbeth. Feast of Fools lgbtq category went to Jerry remain they music category went to k Pop duboc with Eric Nam. The News category went to true crime deadline religion and spirituality went with better work. beep can't say it on the show here the skeptics guide to science and medicine category went to DNA today a geneticist podcast society and culture went to once upon a crime the fantasy football I mean, the sports category went to the fantasy footballers storytelling drama went to crime junkie. the tech category went to school podcast Dave Jackson his second award TV and film lint commit or quit, which is part of that same group that won the Adam increase people's choice podcast. How did I was J of day six? So the the fantasy footballers had been ups upset. Is the right word they won a couple years in a row. So they they were they were I guess for a better word dethroned. So You can find all the windows or re podcasts worse. Combat I think the most important thing, Mike. These shows that made the slate. Were amongst about a thousand shows and dead participated and Just to make the slaves pretty difficult. So. We had over forty five, hundred people of the fifty five hundred folks that we had voting. though in at least eighteen categories, fourteen categories excuse me average fourteen categories. So I'm real happy with the results this year and our upping the number of people that listeners and podcasters they can vote really helped. Solidify but there was some of these categories said. The margin winning was very narrow. And So anyway, good lineup of shows you can subscribe to them all. Air The. said the thing that I noticed about it is most the people on the slater most of the shows on the slate I honestly did not know so I I think that's a good thing that means there's you know new people coming in and. Knocking out of the park. If you look if you look at the acceptance speeches, some of them are remarkable. I. Mean. There was one of his in a studio. The had their team is like Whoa. WHOA, there's like ten people behind the to host and So just watching I think what good takeaway here is if you're a podcast in, you are a comedy podcast her. Or your organization whatever it may be, you should subscribe all these shows. Is described all ten in your category and listen to them. And say, what are they doing different? What's what's making them breakout? That's not bad advice for everybody. That's right. Pick a category in and listened listened to your quote unquote competition or your peers, your ears. Yeah and listen to him and we've got ability for you to describe real easy right on the website. So make sure you do go over to podcast DOT COM and Well anyways. Thank, goodness it's over. Here. Yeah. But also, there's a new website out there and we. We're going to talk about this website a little bit late in Shelby pod. Friend has released progressive web APP podcast player using the podcast index. So, you can check out our listing and demand practice should just low debt here. So we could actually so we can actually see it. But this is this is designed for a mobile site. So just let me kind of show you what it looks like on mobile I me squeeze it down. That's kind of the mobile view. Of what it looks like. Those watching for those watching. But it said Web that pod. FRIEND DOT COM is is the place to go Lincoln up in the show notes of course? Yes we talk about it quite a bit in the interview. In the interview that we've got coming up so let's talk about making Kelly. I haven't been following what she's been doing. Yeah. Well, Megan Kelly famously went from Fox to NBC, and then didn't last too long over NBC and and now I in her words she's She says no more corporate overlords she's starting independent podcast. and. Listen to a couple of listened to the or the You know initial episode and it's it's very good You know it's an interview show. Yeah. Did she allying with any networker? She doing her own deal she's doing her own deal She's got a company she started called Devil Care Media and Jabal Care Media Devil may care media or something like that. Oh. That's interesting. Yeah. So yet so we'll have to listen to what she does she. She in the first episode there. She talks about you know that it's so much greater now that you know she didn't have to worry about you know. What she says what she says so much and and yeah, it's it's a it's. It's great for for her you know she kinda got a raw deal at NBC at least that's my opinion. We'll see. Yup. So it's amazing how these voices now are starting to find that? The agendas of mainstream media which feed you what? They want you to hear. How these folks have been so constrained and then when they get to podcasting and they can basically say what they really want to say and not be constrained. It's a beautiful thing. It really really is we just need figure out. How to make sure all now, she's problem that we need to figure out how to get everyone paid, and again, this interview we got coming up maybe leads into that. So anyway, there's some new gear coming out from him. They got a whole bunch is up, but they've got a new echo dot. Yeah, it's a you know it's just a weird shape thing but Yeah. It's got a better speaker in it and you know few other options and Chris kids option. But yeah, you know like I said, we don't want to promote them too much but. You know it's always interesting. You know how many people listen on the Smart Speaker Devices Craft can do that for us by just using whatever trigger word and play the latest episode of podcast insider. So Apple has bought Scout FM I guess they bought it some time ago and then they it. That's the news right Yep, definitely Yeah they bought it and. The US, some of their technology we think in the new. Fourteen version of apple podcasts so. It's pretty slick. How how they got stations in there you know where you could pick. Sort of a topic, and then they will curate some podcast to put a playlist for you and and or based on what you've listened to. In the past. They'll suggest things to you and that's what Scout FM was good at and. Basically, bought the the APP and then killed incorporated some of the stuff in their own APP. Interesting nothing wrong with yeah. So that's one of those tech acquires and they wrap it up into your own tack. SMART. So best practice today really is kind of a some of maybe some my frustration maybe. It's it's really revolves around your fans. And here, fans of your show or doing something for you. If they are supporting you. Baby their nominating for you and podcast award maybe they are Just, leaving a comment on your website or send you an email. It would be who've you. To follow up with your fans and to say, thank you appreciate your comments eight on the show. Following following up with your fans did listen to your show as one of the e think you would think Mike that that would be. We have to talk about this. No. You know some shows get an incredible amount of feedback and whatnot from their fans but some don't and and those that don't get a lot but get something you know you a lot of us will bend over backwards for our fans. or you know anybody that makes you know any feedback or something nice about us on social or whatever you know. We're all over that and you should do that follow up. Make sure you people that are interested in your show that contact you. You know. Make sure you're communicating with them. They're valuable commodity that's right and So really in our best practices and it's just a little bit of advice follow up say say thank You d know if even if it's on social media, it's a tweet and someone has said so make sure your heart it or re tweet it or it's just and sometimes you know. We don't always get comments about this show our personal shows I go two or three shows don't get an email. And and and. For me it's like. It's really really important to acknowledge when someone's taking the time. In maybe the bigger shells just can't do it. Maybe that's you know they've lost the touch of being able to. You know touch almost individual members in in. But for me, it's really really important and I think that as independent contact readers. We need to really pay attention to. To our fans and and and and and throw that them that appreciation that they deserve. Let's move on from that. I want go too deep, but it's just a riot it it really kind of. The reason it came up as just because some things has happened in the last twenty, four hours astonish me. And Follow but your fans and and honor your fans and things do for you I the and Blueberry News. Power Press eight point four, five teams. I forever. But we gotta get all the kinks out and So we've been testing eight point four internally and I think we're just about ready to throw it on the data site we'll see. In you know what we've done here is there's not as much as many. Physical updates any point four, there's a few from gooey standpoint, but there's a lot we've done. Yeah, that's dedication. Peace between Blueberry and power press has really been beefed up and So we just making sure that works because we don't want to have you do an update and break. The connection and Mike you spend the next week point your hair out. But anyway surprise eight point four and when we do go into Beta testing, we are going to want to you if you are want to help us we want you to Beta test. It's really really important. So, let's talk a little bit about inertial podcast day that happened yesterday. Yeah. We had our two sessions Mackenzie did powerful women and podcasting with candy and I forget who the other. Lady was but that very well, I got to see about two thirds of it. And then of course, todd I talked with. Adam Curry. And we're going to be playing that next. So yeah. Yeah. So it was a it was a great great thing they had. Was it thirty hours of programming on international podcast day and they were all over the world different languages and? Before we came on, there was a group speaking Spanish you know is out of Guatemala. I think is where they were from and talking about the podcasting in. Central America. Yeah. So one thing we're going to do though is a Mike and I have the interview from Adam Curry from yesterday we do not have the one from the powerful women interview, but we're GONNA do best to get her hands on that audio. This week and will play the powerful women interview. next week on the show. So we WANNA make sure we get in there was really really good these two women that de Mackenzie interviewed. it really shows what's happening and what these women have been able to do one came from the broadcast world. The other did not and I. Think you're going to be just as intrigued with the interview that will play next week with them as you are with the one today with Adam. Curry. So I do. WanNa just Kinda pre face. Adam. Curry interviews ca some of you may get just a little confused. Adam Curry's starting initiative called podcast two point Oh he's done. Something new called the podcast index it's about. Sustainability and podcast keeping podcasting open Adam goes all over the place at times night bringing back to center as much as. There is a few curse words in there that slipped through. So right? Be Aware of that So if you've got this on speaker at work you might want to there's a few but not a lot tone. No. But other than that we're going to go out and play the interview. It's it's it's about fifty minutes. So little longer show today and we'll come back with a quick wrap up. So here's the interview with Adam Curry. Everyone that's here on international podcast day I want to welcome you to our. To our. Special guests. We've got Mr Adam with his Adam. Happy International Podcast Day Y'all for those of you that don't Know Adam is the podfather podcasting, and of course, I always like to give credit to Weiner's well Kinda call him the CO founder Co father of podcasting and I've got Mike Del with the part of my team here blueberry with this is well this. PODCAST. So a lot to cover here the next fifty minutes or so and Adam we were talking just before we get started just kind of talk a little bit about the history of podcasting and Mike what year did you come into the space over five early two, thousand five. So you are kind of you jumped in really still pretty early. But Adam you know when you are sitting around, it really started before two thousand forbid this idea. Of, being able to have this medium that would be able to be delivered without any gatekeepers where where did this all come from I've always wanted to be a broadcast of always wanted to be a radio guy when I was fifteen I built my first radio transmitter, my first FM radio transmitter and. My mom kindly drove me around the block You know trying to see how far the signal would reach that has always been kind of my mission mainly, because I want to be on radio getting onto the radio is not necessarily an easy thing to do. Particularly if there's limited you know this limited stations etcetera. So I've been doing pirate radio I've actually worked at a professional radio stations. Right down to syndicated radio, just love radio I mean look I've got the perfect face for radio. So. That was my mission online and at the time when I was thinking about this, it was still working. Mainly television stuff but. we had real audio and just you know we we didn't have the bandwidth and I'd figured it out. I knew there would be trick I knew there was a kind of a time shifting magic trick that could be done where you would just be told that there was something new a new show when it was already downloaded onto your computer onto your or what are we have? Then, we had I think we had a couple of MP three players. It was very sparse in the beginning So I in two thousand actually, I had this idea was walking around with kind of wound up with my chocolate Dave Weiner's peanut butter and We figured out how to build this, which was really quite simple. The closure element in RSS feed he already had the aggregate aside. which is in essence quite simplistic although these days a lot more to it And when I saw the Ipod site, just a light bulb went off the same lightbulb when thought my first FM transmitter in. Fifteen, it's like holy crap. This is a radio receiver. It's not just a music box and so the concept of putting all that together. That kind of became podcasting really with the help of a lot of very dedicated. Independent developers who are working on showing how a radio receiver work and that's what I realized. Now with the state of podcast news it is today is that I? Never focused on the radio on the receiver side I've never had to do that when I was doing you know commercial radio or in public radio or pirate radio didn't have you people had radio it's just work and there was enough of them everywhere so that luxury is is fading or is changing. and. That's why I'm trying to do some other things which I'm sure we'll talk about. but podcasting really predates the social networking. Now, twitter was originally a podcast that company and they pivoted very successfully into you know a phenomenon podcasting has been around for a long long long time. You know we're talking, what are we talking fifteen years six, hundred, hundred, sixteen, sixteen, and change because I started my show in. October of Oh four new guys are already kicking it on the daily source code, and that's how I heard about podcasting, of course but. So you guys have been gone awhile before that. So we're years at least sixteen plus it's this long time. Really. What happened is a big radio manufacturer came along and that was a steve. Jobs. who already had kind of radio he just didn't know that it was a radio yet until know the podcasting community by using it told him this radio. So he saw that he understood it he asked me to bless. It was very, very thrilling. Very complimentary. But didn't consider that we would need other radio manufacturers. Because if someone has a lock on that you know it's like your satellite radio in your car really only does one channel. I mean not one channel but one provider the they kind of have you in a box you know they can do whatever you want with fees or advertising or combination, and there's no room for anyone to do that kind of a service. Without a lot of money and thus resorting to business models that aren't necessarily. Compatible with what everyone wants to say or you know one thing that you said earlier is something I like to relate back to, and it of has come full circle as the talk about pirate radio. What did you do pie radio around the man? You know you WanNa that antenna on the roof he you know you wanted to be able to put that middle finger up and say, Hey, I'm I'm broadcasting you can't stop me now you can hunt me down in, find me if you can find me but what we did or what you did and kicked off what I call evolution is. In most people don't realize how. Dramatically different, it is today than what it was in two thousand four. You know this was my radio receiver you know a little I river and I think. Got One around here. You know, I keep it around as a reminder. That was my father listening to music or podcasts that was it and and I didn't have enough money for an ipod at that time. You know later on I did obviously but the the ability to be able to walk any I, think the thing that people need to realise ability in two thousand and four when this kicked off the ability to walk out of your house with a pocketful content that you chose to listen to not what was being fed t by about one hundred or eighty. Six Ninety or whatever channel it was was truly truly evolution because in order to get on those, you had to go through get intern and kiss somebody but. You have to get rid of the corporate overlords. Had had a program director and semi some GM Indiana maybe get a little jock time and at two o'clock in the morning you know Mike you need did a little bit of that where two o'clock in the morning radio stuff, right? Oh. Yeah. Some. Stuff on community radio station with. That advertises its power is as powerful as a moderately. Sized Blow Dryer So. You know. So the average Joe, if he wanted to even get on any type of platforms or what bailable Ben you had to deal with Microsoft or he had signed some deal with. Some corporate mogul and I remember asking stupidly, Hey, how much is it going to be to get a bit podcast onto a channel eight, hundred, sixty, two of of this cable network and a guy says ten years ten, million dollars in good luck in I'm thinking I can't get podcasts on channel sixty, two on a cable TV in in a really got to thinking Lehner said that was dumb. Why do I want that was this dumb plays into where we're at right now. And this is really Important and I I know you jump in because you're an active participant in this and I really appreciate it So seeing that and being a podcast or myself I care I, care that. I can speak my mind freely as an within the the rules of the Constitution. which I believe in the First Amendment. And the business model of today's big. Technology companies. Advertising now when you have a huge infrastructure like. Twitter or facebook or instagram or you to. These are very, very costly enterprise. So to compete with that it is is inherently difficult independently unless you start up another advertising based service in, you know there's a lot that goes on with that with algorithms and ad buying networks. It's just it's it's quite a big venture billions of dollars. So when big companies like spotify an Amazon and Google and Apple Have an APP which is right next to an independent APP except their APP has advertising business model and to be on their APP, you have to sign their terms of service, which in some cases isn't. Fully paid for zero dollars, a global license to create derivative works whatever it doesn't matter. They basically saying you're on here and we can do what we want to do. We may not get you in they probably will make it only makes sense. Obviously, we can also take you off and inherent to the advertising. Business model is offensive speech to advertise not the people not the First Amendment to advertisers they don't controversy they don't want it. and sometimes it is just you know people in ideologies, etc but. Central to it is that power has shown US demonitization. D, platforming from every single big technology network. Now, again, those are multibillion dollar company podcast. It's been around for fifteen years and it's very manageable because it's decentralized kind of by nature one needs to own it as long as we have independent manufacturers of radios the the APPS now creating an APP is no incentive in you're not gonNA, make any money from advertisements that play on the radio. So why are you doing you can't I? Mean it's hard to sell an APP it's gotta be so great or so innovative which I believe there's still room for, but we haven't really seen it yet. that there will be a commercial viable a business model for it. Since advertising set, you need huge infrastructure to do that properly in your network agreements, and then we have yet another possible silo So instead of running huge infrastructure I, want independent developers to a be able to develop the podcast, the radio of their dreams. And B.. I want them to be cut in some kind of value flow of the whole ecosystem between the listener. The APP that shows them displays promotes them mean by we have an APP that completely promotes one type of one type of of podcast. It's all. Variations wants to get outside of the box. I. Think that's really necessary in order to really preserve podcasting as a platform for free speech. I'm not saying freedom of speech free speech. I should say what I want and I shouldn't have to worry that an advertiser business model will remove me from spreading that overnight and where people get accustomed to hearing me. We did not sign the terms of service with spotify. So that took us off, which is right. We're not an Amazon either. You know. So that is That's good. Because we have our audience, they know how to find us and we still have independent apps out there but we need to stimulates growth. Let me. Let me. Let me give the folks a little context here because somebody may be going on my podcast. People. Say I'm getting my podcasts and apple podcast I'm getting todd cast and overcast or podcast or on these twenty Absa y y wh what's the problem? Well, what it is, and most of you don't fully realize this is that we also met apple podcast Kaz that's the number one distribution point apple podcast APP is still number one in consumption apple has got an API that basically allows APP. Developers Toco and in pole. In fulfill and to populate their APPS and some information right? By their system, it's by their system and by their. Attorney and invite. Now Apple may never shut down their API but there could come a day where they decide. Now this may be is financial viable or I'm with don't maybe where need we have to start taking shows off because of social justice me yours is going after a podcast whatever may be the reason. Although That did happen did Hatha wars and Alex Jones. Not like speech but you know even apple who had fear for maybe their devices. took the L. on that. So I try and I WANNA make sure it's clear I love apple for what they've been doing for podcasting. They're great stewards have been very kind very open contributed. They've it really. It helps them that you know with their devices, but they have done quite a bit and I appreciate that but I also think there is not a problem for us to have. A system next to theirs, which is community run, and we fix a lot of the problems that we have as a community with the index it turns out. There's a lot of stuff that people want differently from categories. Two different ways of searching I mean it's debate goes beyond me. You know a lot more about it than I do. That's really fascinating. It's also not a good thing to just have one entity in charge of that catalog and and what you're doing and what we've done at blueberry as well. We have a directory that's independent of Apple. Precisely so Adam started what's called That I hope that when I'm seeing now with people saying, how do we 'cause we? We make our entire index. Debatable. How do we distribute this? So as a community in the ecosystem, we're some seeing you near the podcast index organising but blueberry is sync to whatever degree with apple let's make just make sure that we have. To. Go in and stuff needs to come out as a lot of. Crap and doubles feeds piracy. All things I think we're starting. We're starting all some of these feeds that are faked. Re Upload shows people come up with algorithms to detect the stuff that apple has no time to really proud of the community around podcast index, dot org that solving these problems in and you're absolutely right. We need to it needs to be distributed. We can't be the only guys I. Mean we're running on donations. And we can find that ourselves for a while but a certain point you're running. Fourteen fifteen servers now already just to keep up with it. So for those Adam started was call basically his term, the podcast two point. Oh, I. Don't want to call it the initiative, but it's all revolve around podcast index index, dot? Org. Geeks over there right now, a lot of developers people come in and give an ideas right and code contributing to the community project, and essentially for those of you that are maybe a little bit loss because maybe don't understand the full mechanics of what happens behind the you know when you hit publish with your podcast with your hosting provider is really what was being or what is being done here is is were and I'm Ki Maybe Adam. You're GonNa Laugh at me but I'm calling an insurance policy. PODCAST Index Oregon Insurance Policy to make sure that podcasting remains on air remains free as you said, cannot be controlled by gatekeepers and. In effect you mentioned apple having removed Alex Jones and Info Wars. What lot of people don't know is that because Alex and you may not agree with his content that's not a discussion for this for this session. Never would free speech is about. The content is really not the issue. So what we've? Got A lot of people don't know as he controlled his RSS feed. So essentially even though he was removed from the master directory and it was deep platforms off of other sources, his audience whether you liked them or not can still get that content. So the analogy I'm starting to like to share with the is is that I was an event at Dragon Connie year ago where there was a diverse community of creators we're discussing about how they had been. Their voice wasn't allowed to be heard. They were they were doing protest or whatever they were doing. The the news organizations stuff were talking to maybe a bystander on the street instead of someone that was actually organizing protests. So got so pissed off about not be and get their message out they started a podcast so that their community people could listen to it and be heard. So it's not just the thing that podcasting Adam and Dave and this whole community people created is something where we don't want some corporate suit. To say for whatever commercial reason I don't like you. And we're making committee decision to pull your show and cut you off. Hitting the nail on the head this is very important distinction. I'm not concerned with shows I'm concerned with podcasting as a platform It is incredibly valid and useful to have a mechanism for distributing an archive of speeches or. Whatever it is doesn't have to be a show that starts and ends. It can just be recordings of something that is important to you and it should be possible for somebody who can record whatever they want to do to put it up on the feed and for many receivers many radio receivers to immediately be able to receive that. That's your podcast apps with the current system you're already submitting to apple you're near this multi submits like blueberry has. Multiple places if you have a new feed, there's a review process i. don't think that's necessary. It's not necessary for free speech is necessary for advertising business models, and Oh by the way, you do sign a term of service on the way in and you will be held that, and that will be your downfall when when you go outside the terms of what is acceptable as free speech within that commercial entity which I have no problem with Howard, what I want lots of people make money I want everybody to have tons of fun and cash with all the many advertising based solutions that are coming up. You're right. Part one, the scope of part one of my mission is preserved podcasting as a platform for free speech. That's an insurance policy I think the term or the word preserved already. says that. We are still going to fail if we do not have a way to incentivize APP developers, part one is making sure they don't have to deal with the heavy lifting making sure they don't have become gatekeepers making sure they can just sit focus on experience par to is how do we have the value chain the slow through the radio received without advertising advertising. Is Easy, but people with a lot of money can do that better than we should be able to preserve that free speech with one of the many models that are out there Patriot on donations value for value I estimate just go and you tell me if these numbers are off, there's a hundred million people in America who listen to one hour of PODCAST, day? Close. We'd have to look at the Edison numbers that but I'd say that's about right and I'm just going to say that seven days a week. So I'll say value I'm just putting a value on something. My time is worth more than a dollar, but some people feel dollars fine. So if a hundred million people do that, then we have one million people. Ah Day. Though I think, could ask to donate percent of that hundred million. It's higher on our show but I think that's possible. That's a million dollars an hour right there. So. That to be distributed somehow. And payment systems are equally a problem as a different podcast. APPS owned by big commercial companies. There are many topics of free speech that payment systems no longer allow. You sneak some people can't even get back. So you can only imagine I'm not the only one who is seamus. Dave Jones nightman taking incoming pitches from a lot of people from. Two to. All all these different ideas and I'm honestly thinking that there is from what I've seen him with people have taught me from what I've learned there's. A way to have some kind of a digital currency flowing through this network that would cut everybody in and that would I don't know if it's going to be cheaper I, know it's going to be more anonymous or secure I think we can actually distribute it. It's a huge onramp. But when you're only talking a database, a raw database of what little under two million fees but say extrapolate that one point four, million podcasts made one five who knows that's Doable at a community distributed level and and. Once. We've completed this phase one and I think probably about halfway through. then. We're going to start looking at that otherwise we'll still fail. So this is. A my mind. This is a fantastic opportunity a moment in time when every smart person on the Internet and start thinking. Okay. How do we? How do we move culturally move people? D-. Do stuff like patron the already do stuff like pay pal. The on boarding seems to be the hardest thing is you know how do we do it and we've been listening to a lot of people and once we have this this part shored up I, we're going to come to the community with a proposal that we think would be the way to do that and everybody benefits not just the the podcast but. We can can tie the whole system in it can be hosting can be the APP which most mostly concerned about is that the APP developers, they have to have a way to make money. Otherwise, you have no radios in the future that are independently owned, and it's a really simple thing to build. It's not that hard Mike you know let's you and I deal with this every day with the having podcasters. Get on different platforms has spotify sent you a check Mike for your shelby and on spotify. Well, my shows aren't on spotify but if they were, they probably would not have sent me a challenge. So I my shows on spotify but haven't gotten a check from spotify. So you know what if you play a radio and Atlanta radio if you play music song from Taylor Swift on spotify, she might get a penny. They've already screwed those artists already in the royalty system they've set up for music artists, but at least he might get a penny from you play in this the Taylor Swift Song. But so what spotify and other groups doings are getting all this free great content, this drying thousands and millions of people on their platform to listen to it that they're monetize ing against, and yet the content creator is getting zero. The APP developers like Adam is referred to lesser running some advertising in their. APP They're getting zero they're not make any money I know I much cost to build an APP it's about two hundred thousand dollars to build these days. It's not cheap to build a nap. So Goodwin. At least a good one. So. I think that there's lots of opportunities here and I'm worried about the independent craters long-term at Adam I wanna make sure the indies number one, not everyone's worried about making money some bieler doing podcast per fun slow this. This helps them by default I mean right. So I think as vice nature podcast is kind of Independent. I mean what I love podcasting is pretty much the definition of free speech. It is literally people speaking with each other that you are listening to and you're listening to ideas of course, some dress it up some of sound effects whatever it is whether it's a book I mean, all this stuff is valid in in podcasting ecosystem and a platform to this protects everybody. That's why. The index that just runs pure on donations and it turns out when you ask people we do a podcast about podcasting two point Oh, it's not available in the Apple Index Probably is on. Our RSS Lincoln podcast index, Dot Org, and you should if you had a real podcast APP, you should be able to add manually when you ask people and say, Hey, what is it worth to us to have this guaranteed that as you would call it insurance policy turns out people start putting in monthly orders for twenty your fifty dollars we've had some people in this five hundred dollars, keep it running whatever I can do to help so. I'm not a fan of pricing anything that I hate the the whole I'm not against licensing but when it gets down to the ends less than a penny per stream way less than a penny per stream for Taylor swift but even I never liked itunes with unbundling of the album turning it into ninety nine cent tracks, which is like most insulting thing in the world you know and listen to the Beatles that's only worth ninety nine cents. To me. If you said, it's ten bucks paid to but now you nickel and dime me I'm getting ahead in space and that hurts everybody. So value is very different from person to person my example of one dollar one dollar an hour per day with with a million people. That's only if they value what they're doing for full hour one, evaluate your minimum wage. Now also we have something and we just have to figure out a way to distribute that I've been looking at crypto currencies very interesting of never really delved into this much recently because I've had people just. Incoming with all kinds of ideas. It's a different way of thinking about money as very exciting. Everything is upside down. Everything's backwards makes no sense. But if we can again gonNA build that like what I did with podcasting little layer on top. You know I mean don't rush out and get a get a crypto. Understand what the heck's going on with invoices and all this stuff? No No, we won't need to build something over that. So it makes it easy for people to see I. got a podcast wallet and I want to put some money in podcasters wallet and I'm real happy if I keep the index running an APP developers going and maybe I need to send some to the hosting guy who's providing the bandwidth So. These are by the way have religious conversations. You're building index. I want you to know that we have a real long-term vision once we get phased one done in some of you I just want to bring it back to, and so I ran a podcast hosting company I have a commercial interest I have to make money for my company that is I have to pay salaries, act pay benefits all the stuff that normal company does and because I have a direct view. So here's the difference I have a commercial interest and making sure our directory stays up. Sure I've got an API that keep people can access that directory, but I'm commercial interest in I have. Commercial Goals, okay, what Adam is set up with podcast two point own the podcasts index. Is. While they do have a company around it maybe talk a little bit about that Adam is. I have to make money I have to to keep the employees. Fed. Because amateur but you you on the other hand which you set up here with the podcast index dot org you is truly in the end Alex, explain it. I think what you're really doing here is Yeoman's work to make sure that the podcasting space can never be taken away from us. Well. Thank you and I and I, and that is the intent. We we do want to be some kind of plumbing. And interested in that because if you have good plumbing everybody's GONNA benefit. And it should be pretty much a commodity. We realized that there's especially when you get into value transfer, you have to deal with a lot of legality, CETERA and we're prepared to do that if we can funded. So we have no funding. We started with our own money. We now have baby or thousand dollars. We'll keep the servers running. So that's really helpful where we only want to benefit. Really mainly I do six hours a week just no agenda I do another three hours a week or every ten days with the most facts my stepdaughter's podcast. I want people to be able to continue to do that. It's how I make my living. So I need to make totally an insurance plan for myself no doubt about it but if we can become some kind of plumbing which would only work distributed, that's the only way it works these days I'm I'm decentralized guy. we, WANNA. Be there we want to help everything else I'm confident that we can keep the podcast index up and running based upon just the community supporting it with time talent and treasure. Really you know that's that's the whole value for value model. You can deliver a one of those you really helping and maybe together, it will figure out how we all benefit. From our own little system of a value transfer. Mike ask some questions here in a second but I will have to pitch your shell and for those of you that have never listen to Adams primary show the no agenda show. You need to listen to it because if you want to figure out a model. That is value for value and and teach your audience house support the work you put into your show and not have an advertiser. This is a show to listen to and I I'm I'm saying this because I listen to Adams show and how they produce it and and I talk about it. I've never seen a more loyal and engage audience. So if nothing else go there and listen to the show and learn. By listened to twenty shows how Adams and and his and his partner John has bill a shell. That's pretty incredible just look at the model that they built with that nets. That's an aside from what we're talking about here. But Mike I'm sure you've got a couple of questions on what's going on with podcast index two point Oh or podcast index. Yeah I've been playing around with that APP that the came out with the web APP and they're using friends. Yeah. pod friends go. We're just talking I talk about this twenty minutes ago I didn't know that you days did that. Yeah. That's Martin from Denmark. Home and I got. The green the Green Avatar podcast indexed out social. You might have seen. So let me I'm sorry you had a question about no. No I was just saying you know things like that. Are just you know the the beauty of this, this index that you're having or that you've got and I know James Cridland pod news has in his pulled it is. And stuff Of course, I've been bug bugging our developers to look into it as well. So. that. Yes we've noticed you do that. So just the thing about pod friend this is this is how a community works is really beautiful. So Martins in Denmark, don't think I've ever met him before we said on our podcast we said we really need a reference APP but just as we seeing the same, you know big silos IOS and android. That take d platform APPs because they connect to services were dangerous speech could be found and I'm talking specifically about Mastodon. And I believe it's also an Iowa's they've been removed could be mistaken. There's every reason to believe that an apple no longer be allowed to be in the APP store. So what all platforms luckily allow is for Progressive Web APP away which you've ever seen a web page and you have a an option. To to your home screen on Android and save it to. desktop think whatever on them on irs and it actually it opened its running in the browser but opens up like an apparatus feels like. This this particular APP, very proud of because it's very lightweight is doing nothing other than just talking to the index and bringing stuff in and so Martin and this he did this couple of days. I mean he he had all this stuff all figured out. He was just adding features stuff he wants to do because there was no real hassle for him to have to worry about you know are the feeds aggregating stuff updating on time. Are we getting bogus says, search search results all the things that we all know actually happens under the hood of of the RSS Fest that is podcasting. Until. He turned into installing windows APP, he's actually going to make an APP that you can submit to the APP stores and really it's just a reference. So this is the guy you know and even a philosophical question you said I provided the code and now I think I want to develop my app for some kind of prophets I'm not gonNA share my code. Well, that's fine. You know whatever route however you want to benefit from it you've already given back holy crap. He gave us a reference APP and and the and the code to anyone who anyone I without much trouble I could at least customize what he did and create my own version of my own podcast player. That's huge. And we have people who crazed. the cast, randomize her Gosh I forgot the URL So do you know where his public web APP a resides added? That's at HOT FRIEND DOT COM. So I met POD FRIEND DOT COM. Did, you go to web. they'll give you the web only. That's what I'm looking for. Yeah Yeah. Let's play this afternoon. That's pretty slick of for sure. It shows what you can do with just just the lab of free. Oakland West it's really amazing. So let me bring it up here. And let me search for show. The tablet view that's kind of Nice. Course, it's in a browser. So there's the audit. Well, that's up. That's when I wanted shoot was go at this one. So this is in if you folks if you go to this in your mobile phone web, doubt pod, friend DOT COM, this'll load like a mobile APP this is on the desktop. So just so I probably can squeeze it here if I can squeeze it down. South is probably what the that's kind of what it will look like when it's a on your mobile device, you know blueberry build public web for our our PWA for private internal podcasting product. But this again is what this assures. And he and what we go back to he's building IOS. APP. He's building an ANDROID APP for commercial reasons, but this can't be e- platform. No and and you can go and take that coat and make an APP fear Church podcasts and customized how you want an and distributed to your clergy. That's just one idea why not hey, go get the professor. Finkelstein APP as got all my lectures in their go ahead and just put up a new day I just added another feed for this. That's the stuff I wanNA see. Now you're talking about a platform for free speech and here's another thing too that a lot of the sites no longer do if you go to apple podcast now and you find this shell and you see that it's done by me but be absolutely. Pain defined a link back to your website. I'm bill about big and brands. So what is this I'm over here on WEB THAT PADRON DOT COM people list Michelle I want to go retards website they click on it click on the website link and loaded a new Might be a bug. Sale failed silly. He says its early Beta come on early but still it's a link back to my website. and. That's that's again what SPA vice not doing that specifies allowing you go and listen to your show on spotify. The only way they're gonNA know to go back to your website is to say, Hey, by the way folks make sure you go back to WWe or such such dot com. And so. People already coming up with the insurance policy to the insurance policy where every MP three is distributed on the interplanetary file system. Is always there. So it's always there even. If, you're hosting company loses it. If something blows up, if someone goes away, it'll be there forever as computers running we got a couple of pin notes, which, of course we'd be happy to do. All of that kind of stuff you know that now you're talkin now you're talking. So why are we talking about all this? You know people are saying everything's cool off the way it is. For now. It's it's it's a great time. It's cool until they tell you, your podcast can't be on the air own. Make sure that the next five Joe Rogan's have a place to to to talk crass and you know whatever it takes the next controversial scientists who has a different opinion or or doctor or you can say, Hey, here's what I think and not have to worry about it not being available to anybody. You know this is still important whether you agree with it or not I mean. I'm an old man now. My rocking chair fifty six I'm saying, Hey, children. You don't know what it's like to be able to say whatever you want to say. So you know let's We. Go back to two, thousand, three distribution the there was again, there was no facebook there's no twitter there was no social media there. You can have a website which I did I could blog being on and had to three hundred people maybe a week come to the blog if I was lucky I had pre speech but podcasting opened up everything and and while it's a great time in podcasting I think that innovation in some instances Astaldi. No. I started a group called the coalition tried to get a I had I had apple there. I had Pandora there I had all the right people their third. You say it man I heard you say it on a recent new media show her you say innovation has altered and all I want. All I want is three tags three new tags to help the podcasting space I need a closed caption tag I need a tag for transcripts and And do you know how hard? It is to get a if todd came up. The idea of that was that was blueberries idea. We're not GONNA do that. So I need a community say, yes, we're going to greet doing some this new stuff, expand the space, but it's all meat without the APP developers. The APP developers say, why should I add that? There's there's no incentive for me to add this Chenoweth at the namespace and you know we're the only ones that use it currently you know so. I can say what I want all day long and I can I beg apple to say, Hey, you ain't you guys announce it then you'll force people's hands but that's not the way it should how about a really simple idea is simple idea that. A store that sells t shirts could somehow associated with the show. ID whatever it is. That, you know that connection between. Swag and the show can be made very easily so that it's kind of like, Hey, disconnect to our store and. All the rest kind of happens we'll take you know we'll take. Process things for you. I. Don't know I. Think it's I think the opportunities limitless. Whatsoever we could have a swag. do it I mean obviously Dave, Jones is you know some things he's you know he listened to everything and we pulled off eight in so far everyone's been I think bright agreement over. Over what's happening there's always going to be philosophical differences but phrase that no agenda in play and we just WANNA. Make a good I. Think I'm qualified. To make some judgement calls and I think that and by the way I'm correcting myself on fucking it up with the APP developers I just didn't think about it never had to, and now I'm sad about. I don't want the radio receivers to go. The bottom line Adam it really is is we would have already been there had apple come in in two thousand and five and done what they did because what we did is we rode the shirttails of apple for all this time and You we've had all these new distribution points come in. It's all grey contents. Fantastic. People are making money, but the innovation which was happening at a rapid pace. and. Put the brakes on. You know that when you're seeing is that when I when I see people used the the pod friend Web the first thing they say is what you can do that I'm a browser this fast. The APPS, usually aggregation and all this stuff in maintaining a database crunching, actually drain your battery, and here's this little and and that's an honest people who just have used APPs night. Wow that's really fast and then when you make it like a progressive web APP is thing is an APP. and. G It was really easy to grab. It didn't have to identify myself with Apple. Let them know that I'm getting a free things from the store? And all those things you just mentioned transcripts close cat options man those are all. I think was probably thirty more. Share there's thirty more. They're valuable to people and I think that people who create those experiences just like a podcast if you say, Hey, this is valuable. Cut, me. In. In podcasters are desperate for to figure out ways to engage their audience to connect them to carry the Karen. They're carrying US around literally in our phone and their phones right I, carry you around Adam in here I carry my and I is so big. That's right. So I can't carry you guys around but talking I pay. I can only listen. I can't list I can't donate. This totally is totally uninterrupted. There's lots of stuff that can be done and I encourage everybody go to a p I, DOT podcast index dot org sign up become a developer kit. Get your. API. As join the Party we've gotta get hub we've got. Neela Mastodon instance which I think is incredibly valuable because people come in like me. have no real programming coding expertise but I know enough about it to have an opinion and help contribute to ideas and. It's I really didn't wasn't looking for another job but I'm going to be out of mine. One day or and those who come behind me we'll be out if we don't do this. So you know. This is why haven't written my book yet todd we have one more chapter to right my friend next grit in an where they really was down to his true and dear to my heart and my teams are independent podcast graders the the one degrees and those folks are going to continue to do the things they do and but at the core, there's three hundred and eighty three, hundred, ninety, thousand active independent content creators creating content in their closets. And the bedroom tables, our bedroom be better tables. Room. Yeah or or Y- wherever they may be recording. Don't have the luxury of having a studio like this, but you know they're trying to. To get a message, try to help people I mean it runs the the topics that people are creating today and they diversey in a space is is fantastic and I think we not. We do not need to be for better word slaves to the commercial entities of the world we need to be able to independent content creators to. To Mold and make podcasting what we wanted to be. Yes. I'm a commercial company, but I'm also know where my bread is buttered in his independent podcast graders and they don't succeed. have ways to make this work for them and atom you're looking for. You know for your, you know your next chapter. Let's make sure that independent podcast creators can. At least have enough money, take moment to dinner or make car payment or else do a hell of a lot better than that. So. That's you know. Your point is really well made this. There's there's another way that that you can derive value. I think you're making money it's the wrong arguments. Listeners what are the listens getting the getting some value either because they laughed cried learned these are the the basic things if you have a business You know there's there's big big business in this. A lot of these podcasts networks are making podcasts for corporations. Right so you know there's there's value in that. If you have your own business, there's tons of what's wrong with the with with Joe's hardware update. If he has something interesting it if it's just one click to subscribe on its four minutes every every now in and actually pops up and alerts meek because I actually young lost in the swamp of inbox that podcast players become our radio pretty boring. We really can do better than this interface is, is Freddie Pretty Stodgy at this point so we're gonNA see that. I really liked the look value and ultimately these days. What is it's an MP three, a bunch of ones and Zeros that you find valuable and someone sending you an email which may be valuable as just one zero maybe it's a coin whatever it is. So that transfer just has to equalize a little bit more we got and we gotta understand it. and not just worry about if you ask me how many people really listen to our show I don't know we don't run stats. I'm not interested I. don't care. Don't have too many meetings I need to pay the rent. Mortgage Luckily married a woman with. I'M A cat. Come up with my half But that's really how I've lived for the past thirteen years come October twenty six is taking a pay the bills. Okay. Good. I feel like we all get exactly what we deserve and so might my friend Joe he got exactly what he deserved and everything comes with the price. The price and it all depends on what you want where you're at. and. There's a there's an allure for Hollywood type shows but man is a lot of stuff out there. That is that is not just. Bang boob morning, zoo fund, whatever this increased, what a wealth. That's why I love going to the Carousel on podcast index dot org, which is basically the most recently twenty updated podcasts in the database. You just hear stocks like what where did that come from? That existed Adams Fun, believe it or not. We are almost out of time I figured it's just we could go for three hours on this some common both those for your contribution to. To this? Can't really up with the right word for it, but it re it really is a whole ecosystem and a platform above all. And I think that this commemorates that every year and we do it is there is a community is a community of people who absolutely care who understand that your content that you make is very valuable and the code they make which is you know takes a little longer to make an APP than it does to create an hour of podcast leave me. So that's also valuable and right now we're all kind of in the same boat and we're gonNA. Figure it out. If it's there will will will come across it and hopefully there will be ten other ideas and ten other indexes Neil I want competition. Healthy keeps everybody on their toes and let's continue to have some fun. PODCAST. Index Org. Adam What's the name of the show? Again that's not an apple podcast they need to find. Cod Casting two point Oh to Pod Front Frontier Web, DOT pod friend, dot, com, and. You'll find it or right on the homepage of a podcast index dot org and again, thank you so much. WE'RE GONNA turn this back over today even Steve. Lee At International Podcast Day Thank you so much Adam for for coming on today. It's been an absolute pleasure via a look for to talking more about this exciting Mike. Did Harlot you get a word in edgewise? Any any comments before we go? No I was just happy to be a fly on the wall here. You literally on my screen heart. Apologize I'm chatty Cathy when it comes to this I got passion man is burning in my belly and. Having a really good time and I appreciate both in you because you're both a part of it and you know it. All right. Thank you so much and everyone. Hope you enjoyed this. PODCAST. It's So Mike D Think we have anybody in there with their eyes glazed over after listening to that. Maybe but a little hard to follow who but it was that was a blast I tell you. You know I didn't I didn't get too many words in because you and Adam Pretty God I feel bad about that. You did point out a good point on the pot Fran in and got us on a different track for a little while right right but. You know I, don't mind being a fly on the wall they. See Weaker to spend three hours with Atta. Boy. It's just see. You know he just can go on and go on and go on. So if you WANNA be on. podcasts insider you gotta do is email. Todd Mike McKenzie blueberry dot com. We'll get you on the show. It'll be at least two weeks out and we do have some interviews coming up police I do. But to here's a good thing for this show. No support discussions today. Well you know like I tend to get too Geeky. Things. And sound like I'm grumpy and You know I don't want that impression out there. So. We'll We'll speak airing doing some supporting issues from time to time, but I think that's going to drop off as a regular feature just just to make sure I don't sound like an old fart. So for those of you that had been watching live today, we want to thank you for being here for a short time today, but you're going to have to listen to interview. The the the episode will be this afternoon. We'll have it for you and for those of you listening live you, WanNa listen to this. This is this is good stuff. It's it's It's it's in the podcast, her gold but anyway killer podcast insider dot com subscribe to the show when you're on the website. Sending an email again, same emails Mike Todd or Mackenzie Blueberry. Dot Com and everyone take care we'll see you. Next week here in podcast since our thanks Mike. Good. Take. CARE, bye-bye.