18 Burst results for "Derek black"

"derek black" Discussed on Cape Up with Jonathan Capehart

Cape Up with Jonathan Capehart

02:01 min | 3 months ago

"derek black" Discussed on Cape Up with Jonathan Capehart

"I'm thrilled again to know that you you and Allison have gotten married which means and I'm not gonna I'm GonNa be that person. They're going to be kids. So. What what do you want your? First Child, or your children. To know about you, because eventually you know they're going to find out who dad was in the early here's. What do you say to your child? When they come to you and they say dad is this true? I don't know what age that's going to happen I know it will will eventually happen. And I just hope to be honest. hope to. Give some version of the answer. I gave to the previous question that I think we. We all need to make the choice that we have in front of us. That is most true to our morals and ethics and that I don't think that I'm ever going to stop feeling shame for. Believing in Tennessee nationalism it, accepting them and acting on them, and that I cannot even encompass what harm damage that spreading those ideas did, but that my choice is the same as other people's the same as theirs to. Keep pushing back and trying to do the right thing as you move forward. Derek Black thank you very very much for coming on the podcast for sharing your story and for doing everything you can to to right some wrongs. Thanks Johnson thanks for having me on. Thanks for listening to Cape Up Tune in every Tuesday you can find us on apple, podcasts and Stitcher, and how about doing me a huge favor subscribe rate and review us. I'm trying to think K. part of the Washington Post. You can find me on twitter at Cape Heart Jay..

Derek Black Allison Washington Post apple Tennessee Johnson
"derek black" Discussed on Cape Up with Jonathan Capehart

Cape Up with Jonathan Capehart

06:45 min | 3 months ago

"derek black" Discussed on Cape Up with Jonathan Capehart

"Up Derek Black was supposed to be the new face of white nationalism. His Godfather is David Duke his father created the White Nationalist Website Storm Front, black himself used to host a radio show and run workshops, pushing a white nationalist message, and then in college he changed. Listen to Derrick talk about his journey out of hatred. How belief in white nationalist ideals are more widely held than you'd think and the danger of the trump presidency poses to our nation as he rides white nationalist coat-tails here at all right now. Derek Black, welcome to the podcast Hey Jonathan thanks for having me on so I didn't know anything about you. Until my colleague at the Post allies SAS low sent me an email saying I've just written this book. called rising out of hatred. It is about this guy named Derek, black who was basically. That, the era parent to to the throne, if you will of white nationalism who came through on the other side and I read, the book was fantastic. Did the PODCAST WITH WITH ELI? put it out into the world. And unbeknownst to me. You were. A, subscriber to this podcast, and just was on a walk, and you were listening and discovered. You were the subject of conversation. That's exactly my experience. I was still living in Chicago, that point and I was doing my morning commute and your show came on, and it's it's that weird surreal experience where you you slowly realize that this is not just weirdly appropriately interesting, but actually it's just about you so. Specific, while what? What was fascinating about your story? Is How well one you know your story is. You know. In some ways, quintessentially American in you know white supremacy and white nationalism is woven into the DNA of America and hearing your story in the time of trump. Made it even more salient? Why did you participate with with Eli to do the book that he did? And then we'll get into present day stuff, right? Part of it was personal relationship. ilize that amazing writer and his real skill is in telling complicated stories and I. I feel like my story doesn't make sense without all the context of that I not proud of IT I. don't look back and try to. ask for any kind of praise from it in fact, I'm still quite embarrassed than like filled with a lot of shame. That I spent twenty years of my life, really committed to white nationalism, and so if if there was anything good, that was gonNA. Come out of it was gonna be in telling the stories of everybody around at that time all the people who who who were affected by my family's activism, all the people who still be engaged me whether that was in protesting the fact that I was on campus or whether it was. Was In my quiet conversations where they would dismantle all the evidence that I thought my ideology was supported by in all of that together felt like the the important part of it, so if I was going to wrestle with it it just it needed to be in the hands of someone and in a format that could really encompass all that Andy. Lie is such a fantastic storyteller of that. He was the perfect person to tell your story so now that we are a couple of minutes into this conversation and people are probably still wondering. Who is this Derek Black Guy who are you or who were you? I was born into one of the leading families of the White Nationalist Movement that my father founded the first white supremacist website online before the worldwide web even came online by his his closest friend, growing up was David Duke they come together doing white nationalist activism in the nineteen sixties and seventies They had run the clan together. They had quit the clan and gone into. Into politics together they had done all of that for decades by the time I was born, and I spent the first decades of my life, growing up with all these leaders of this movement that they had built coming over to the house or traveling around the country to meet people who had fought against the civil rights movement in the nineteen fifties who are now elderly men. Men sitting around the table, talking about how they were so worried about the direction of the country and I wasn't just a bystander. I got deeply involved at ran for Republican local county office in two thousand eight and been won that election, and became a national story in my own right, and all of that was up until I went to a small liberal Arts College and And had a year experience there being the most controversial thing on campus, because it was a a social justice oriented community that was now trying to wrestle with the fact that explicit premesis was living on their campus, and after many years there, my my experience was wrestling with how my ideology was was harming. People out was factually wrong how it was How is just in? It was not able to be something that I could continue committing to that I that I could be feel good about myself, and so publicly condemned in two thousand thirteen, and have spent the years then since then just trying to figure out what is my. What is my role in? What is my responsibility now? You were at Of Florida as you mentioned David Duke Is Basically Your Your Godfather and he was basically grooming you to be an heir to the throne. If you will what he saw in, you was a fresh face, a young face, but also. Someone who put a new face on white supremacy you. You didn't engage in the activities that they did in terms of hurling racial epithets and stuff like that. You made white nationalism accessible to more people, because you were nicer about it now when you were on when you had college and again, New College of Florida and Sarasota. You were still involved. You were still doing your daily radio show from there for awhile.

Derek Black David Duke White Nationalist Movement Eli New College of Florida Derrick Florida America writer Sarasota liberal Arts College Chicago Andy
Derek Black was groomed to be the new face of white nationalism. Now he's working against it.

Cape Up with Jonathan Capehart

05:49 min | 3 months ago

Derek Black was groomed to be the new face of white nationalism. Now he's working against it.

"Derek Black was supposed to be the new face of white nationalism. His Godfather is David Duke his father created the White Nationalist Website Storm Front, black himself used to host a radio show and run workshops, pushing a white nationalist message, and then in college he changed. Listen to Derrick talk about his journey out of hatred. How belief in white nationalist ideals are more widely held than you'd think and the danger of the trump presidency poses to our nation as he rides white nationalist coat-tails here at all right now. Derek Black, welcome to the podcast Hey Jonathan thanks for having me on so I didn't know anything about you. Until my colleague at the Post allies SAS low sent me an email saying I've just written this book. called rising out of hatred. It is about this guy named Derek, black who was basically. That, the era parent to to the throne, if you will of white nationalism who came through on the other side and I read, the book was fantastic. Did the PODCAST WITH WITH ELI? put it out into the world. And unbeknownst to me. You were. A, subscriber to this podcast, and just was on a walk, and you were listening and discovered. You were the subject of conversation. That's exactly my experience. I was still living in Chicago, that point and I was doing my morning commute and your show came on, and it's it's that weird surreal experience where you you slowly realize that this is not just weirdly appropriately interesting, but actually it's just about you so. Specific, while what? What was fascinating about your story? Is How well one you know your story is. You know. In some ways, quintessentially American in you know white supremacy and white nationalism is woven into the DNA of America and hearing your story in the time of trump. Made it even more salient? Why did you participate with with Eli to do the book that he did? And then we'll get into present day stuff, right? Part of it was personal relationship. ilize that amazing writer and his real skill is in telling complicated stories and I. I feel like my story doesn't make sense without all the context of that I not proud of IT I. don't look back and try to. ask for any kind of praise from it in fact, I'm still quite embarrassed than like filled with a lot of shame. That I spent twenty years of my life, really committed to white nationalism, and so if if there was anything good, that was gonNA. Come out of it was gonna be in telling the stories of everybody around at that time all the people who who who were affected by my family's activism, all the people who still be engaged me whether that was in protesting the fact that I was on campus or whether it was. Was In my quiet conversations where they would dismantle all the evidence that I thought my ideology was supported by in all of that together felt like the the important part of it, so if I was going to wrestle with it it just it needed to be in the hands of someone and in a format that could really encompass all that Andy. Lie is such a fantastic storyteller of that. He was the perfect person to tell your story so now that we are a couple of minutes into this conversation and people are probably still wondering. Who is this Derek Black Guy who are you or who were you? I was born into one of the leading families of the White Nationalist Movement that my father founded the first white supremacist website online before the worldwide web even came online by his his closest friend, growing up was David Duke they come together doing white nationalist activism in the nineteen sixties and seventies They had run the clan together. They had quit the clan and gone into. Into politics together they had done all of that for decades by the time I was born, and I spent the first decades of my life, growing up with all these leaders of this movement that they had built coming over to the house or traveling around the country to meet people who had fought against the civil rights movement in the nineteen fifties who are now elderly men. Men sitting around the table, talking about how they were so worried about the direction of the country and I wasn't just a bystander. I got deeply involved at ran for Republican local county office in two thousand eight and been won that election, and became a national story in my own right, and all of that was up until I went to a small liberal Arts College and And had a year experience there being the most controversial thing on campus, because it was a a social justice oriented community that was now trying to wrestle with the fact that explicit premesis was living on their campus, and after many years there, my my experience was wrestling with how my ideology was was harming. People out was factually wrong how it was How is just in? It was not able to be something that I could continue committing to that I that I could be feel good about myself, and so publicly condemned in two thousand thirteen, and have spent the years then since then just trying to figure out what is my. What is my role in? What is my responsibility now?

Derek Black White Nationalist Movement ELI David Duke Derrick Chicago Liberal Arts College America Writer Andy
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

09:15 min | 1 year ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"You can't say you're not going to talk about it and yet it's still true that every time a media cavalcade shows up to a white nationalist event it promotes their organization yeah and I I did that. They can still do that and it's a dynamic. That's going to keep going on so we just have a few more minutes and there's so much more we can talk about. I guess what is a mentality. What is a way we could begin to think a question we can begin to act small acts in the world that we can see in touch that would make it more likely more possible for someone to undergo the kind of transformation you've undergone crusher? It's too big but I the only lesson that I think that I took from my experience that I feel fairly universal is that it was grounded in empathy that the reason why I was not not willing to listen to the arguments that sound very straightforward that we should work towards inclusion not separation was because I didn't empathize with people who weren't part of my group and I thought I wasn't necessarily doing anything bad to them but it was also the priority was the people or the people who were within my in group and what changed was feeling that people who are not in my anger being negatively impacted by my actions uh-huh and that I should care about that and trying to reconcile that I should care about people who are negatively impacted by my actions and and I'm still doing the actions became very difficult and it really was empathizing with people who were not supposed to be part of my group increasing the number of people who were in my group that that's the universal thing that I think came out of what I learned from coming coming through that because it can everybody has in groups and that has very practical implications for everybody. I mean I I will say something. That impressed me. That seems seems to have gone on with the two of you and at new college is that while a lot of things happen online many people at different stages it took it off line. You know there was this mix of letting things unfold as they do in that space but also constantly pulling it back two one on one conversation shebab dinner saying avenue also said Derek. If you WanNa talk to me about this please reach out to me personally. We wring our hands a lot about the digital space but I I'm saying I think also new college and your modeled kind of living with that but not letting it overwhelm. I think it's true. I think that the one of course the great advantages of the digital world is that you could reach so many people instantaneously one of the great advantages of not being online though of having face to face connection or even online line one on one a personal connection is it fosters the kind of empathy the derrick was describing other person's not just words on a screen. It's not just I some empty message that you're responding to totally him. Personally what it's face to face. It's different ballgame. I think it's much much harder much harder to discount the person's humanity when he stereo is so let me ask you this question and as we finish another question is far too large so whatever wherever you want to begin it Matthew I'll start with you. Uh just as as you look around the world right now and think about the context of this conversation we're having served in how this friendship has shaped you and transformed you what right now makes you despair and where you finding hope sure so. I don't think I would use the word despair because I think the word seems there is no hope but there is certainly a tendency see I think an increasing trend to only associated with people who agree with you who have the same worldview have the same opinions as you and it's psychologically pleasing and it's fun but the terrible cost of that you run a very real risk of losing empathy sympathy for people who disagree with you and that's why I see people people who are my friends who I love dearly nothing to say I hate so and so I hate Republicans or Democrats like do they know what they're saying as far as hope I think that the underlying spark of goodness didn't each and every one of us and within everybody on the world is ultimately going to win out at this empathy that people can generate feel. You can't stop it in the long run Derek what makes you despair in. What gives you hope I probably agree with Matthew that I look away from the word despair and again though it's I probably do actually despair at times because my background informs answer is I spent a lot of time trying to be a good activists for bad 'cause and I spent a Lotta time seeing the ways that my predecessors had been successful at that you know whether it's winning campaigns are building organizations in large large numbers and so- cultivated arguments that found fertile ground and that led us to think that that we were not only right but the with time everybody would see that we were right and agree and then I left and for a while I thought that we had clearly been completely wrong because the world is moving towards becoming more inclusive and then I got a little bit more despair thinking maybe maybe they were right because there are places where a white nationalist argument finds ground around among good smart people and now I think I'm back to being confident that people do want inclusion Asian they do want to they do want to make a fair society? I think just about everybody does once they're they're to be society where we are not limited where we're not oppressed because of because of our group and it's just very hard to do that and it starts with our own beliefs and our own assumptions and so I guess I find the spare in the fact that a lot of us have terrible assumptions and terrible beliefs but that it's encouraging that by changing our assumptions and challenging John ging our beliefs we can create enormous change an enormous correction in the way things are the way things work if we want to do that and if we wanna spend the painful time doing that and that's encouraging thank you so much Derek and Matthew for modeling ogling that this deliberative friendship and this willingness and this courage to be to be bridge people you have so much to teach it does thank you so much thank you if you're heading. Matthew Stevenson currently works as an investment analyst at T. Rowe Price Derek black is a PhD student in history at the University of Chicago where he's examining the medieval European roots of ideas about race in the early modern Atlantic. He is the subject of the book rising out of hatred by ally. I slow this episode is part of on beings ongoing civil conversations project learn more at civil conversations project DOT org. The ongoing project is Chris Cagle Lily Percy Maya Tarot Marie samba-reggae Aaron Farrell Laurindo Tony Liu Aaron Colosio Kristen Lynn profited Oh Eddie Gonzalez billion vote Lucas Johnson Damon Leigh Suzanne Burly Katie Gordon Zack Rose Siri Grassley Nicole Finn and colleen check special. Thanks this sweep to Sara Bloomfield Amy Siegel Kathleen Park.

Derek black Matthew Stevenson Sara Bloomfield Amy Siegel Kat Chris Cagle Lily Percy Maya Ta John ging T. Rowe Price University of Chicago Tony Liu Aaron Colosio Kristen Aaron Farrell Katie Gordon Zack Rose Siri Gr Damon Leigh investment analyst colleen Suzanne Burly Eddie Gonzalez Nicole Finn Lucas Johnson
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

14:33 min | 1 year ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today. We're experiencing the anatomy of a friendship between two young men that is kind of roadmap for navigating some of the hardest territory of our time Derek Black grew up the era parent of a leading white nationalist family. David Duke was his Godfather Matthew Stevenson one of the only orthodox Jews on the campus. They both attended decided after Derek ideology was outed to invite him to dinner for two years. I spoke with Derek and Matthew at the invitation of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. DC You have recently been saying you you're at Georgetown not that long ago when you're saying pretty clearly now that civil dialogue and civil discourse alone is not the answer to those energies and those ideologies that you were part of and I want to talk about that also they also feel like there's a there's an interesting interesting tension here not a contradiction but just like a human tension that you also say you know you wrote this. I would never have begun my own conversations without first I experiencing clear passionate outrage to what I believe from those I interacted with and yet as we've been speaking like that process of you being able to interact interact with them and take him at outrage was the seed that got you to that point so yeah but I would like to hear about how you are thinking these days it's about this line between in civility and outrage and activism. I worried you that my story gets told as a piece of evidence that the only way that you change people's minds as having friendly conversations with them win. It's clearly not true. It's essential that you speak up loudly and condemn condemn what happened it college. It wasn't just these conversations the context those conversations was that an entire community. If people that I had gotten to know for a semester before they knew who I was who I respected clearly had come to a very intelligent agent conclusion that what I was at game was was morally wrong was factually wrong and I found that very pleasant I didn't want to listen to it and it initially drove me to organize a seminar to try to make white nationalist be more confident in what they were believing at new college separately attended seminar but that context was just as important as the private conversations. I don't think I I have no idea but I don't think I would have talked my way out of out of this belief system without those private conversations with somebody that trusted in the same way that I wouldn't have ever entered into those private conversations if I hadn't had a community who were very clear that what I was doing was threatening to their our livelihood idiot. I was not personally engaged in any violent movement. All I had done was Goto hotel conferences and wear name badges and go to banquets and talk about race difference so I said how am I you know threatening anyone or making anyone's life worse off but that reaction that they had made me say clearly it's happening so why and that's why I went into those conversations and I I really worry that someone will hear the fact that I had quiet conversations over two years and then ultimately abandoned my ideology as proof that being loud and saying I don't I condemn that in my society is counterproductive when I don't think it is central to both right. It's both and I mean do you think you if without those yeah conversations with the outrage alone have brought you around the outrage alone would have made me a more firm adherent to being being away nationalist but the quick couldn't have happened without the outrage. I think from my perspective every message really has two components wants. There's the content of the message and then there's also the way in which that message is delivered and there's a difference between being aggressive and being strong. There's a difference between being vociferously opposed in this case to the white nationalist ideology and other hateful ideologies and taking steps to harm an individual who subscribed those ideologies even an ideology which is reprehensible as most of US probably all of us in this room believe white nationalism listen to be once you cross the line to say he's forfeited his rights as a human being is forfeited is right human dignity by virtue of having those beliefs. Maybe the Nazis that the Jews forfeited their rights to human duty by virtue of being Jews or does it end so to be strong no question it's important but there's a difference between being strong and violating the humanity of another person yeah. I feel like this is instructive to we live in a culture right now where hurt everybody's very comfortable with their outrage. Right was just my outrage against your outraged every side. I mean one thing that strikes me Derek Derek. Is that you something that is very different. In this equation is that you had taken yourself out of that US. In which you said was at the center of all the the ideology about others. You were there in the middle of the other right. That's actually a picture that is unfamiliar is becoming less familiar to us. I don't think I anticipated what impact not being around a bunch of white nationalists would have because I thought that I was independently minded and I think I am and being in an environment where people were not checking my ideological purity. Every five minutes turned out to be freeing enough where I could ponder oh what say what if this were not the case and thinking that way a is only possible when I was not among the people who were telling me to be stronger in the fight and keep giving them hell even at home when I I didn't I lived in south. Florida is a fairly metropolis urban diverse displays in even in that environment to when I was away from the House I could get support for white. Nationalism it was period. I got sort of semi famous at home and there was months that went by where I couldn't buy coffee at Dunkin donuts in the morning without some stranger in lion walking up to pay my Bill L. Because I was famous for advocating for white people and they just on some level thought that I was doing something good that it was opposing using political correctness and standing up white people when everybody else gets it up and they were just normal people and that kind of positive reaction was very encouraging thing and at new college there was none of that there was a sense that we need to think about this very carefully because this isn't and my outrageous versus your outrage this is that you advocating this white supremacy stuff which you say is just separation Asian but how could it be anything else is objectively harmful to everybody else and once we were quiet quiet enough to talk about it there there were points to be made on on not not on both sides but there were points to be made that white nationalism was incompatible with with a free society and it wasn't the first time I had heard. That wasn't the first time that somebody had told me that racism is bad. It was just the first time that I've you're willing to listen to it so I'm curious about conversations or not just conversations but how each of you works with this really transformative experience you've had and I do. I do think you are bridge people and how that flows lows into your interactions your conversations with other worlds right with with the progressive world or with the Orthodox Jewish world or or with I mean you. I believe you still have contact with your family. Is that right Are there things you learn that you carry with you. Through the world that you find help you soften other kinds of experiences. I don't know or not I don't. I don't think I know how to answer it. It's because I spent so so much of my time trying to figure out how I fit into this world the world of your that you came from or oh those new world outside of where I came from yeah I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what it means to have grown up confident in a belief system that one particular breaking moment in life I decided had not only been incorrect what destructive and what does that mean going forward word. And how do I approach being involved in anything else. Than how do I know that something I'm confident in now is is something that I should be an active voice in and how do I know that the words that I choose and the places that I go are not going to be destructive like they once were and like these are the where do I fit in the world is a question that I have to ask when I walk into a room. I'm thinking of the fact that I'm at a global issues forum for the Holocaust Museum in the background and the life that led me to stand there is still the very difficult for me to reconcile say. How did I get here and what does it mean? I think that for me from a very early age my my mom was very involved in a alcoholics anonymous and you know it's one thing to say that people can change but it's another to see see somebody who had been engaged in enormously destructive behaviors don only ceased doing those behaviors but do a complete about outface and actively help other people in the same situation that they had been actively try to make the world a better place and I think Derek's example and and those convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter how a deeply involved somebody is in a negative pattern of behavior or a negative ideology never in too deep. There's always a chance for redemption and I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today a public conversation with Derek black once a white nationalist I era parent and Matthew Stevenson whose friendship brought him beyond that I said to you Derek before we walked out that I it feels kind of uncomfortable to me that you become a symbol that I wanted to talk to you you as a human being in the you know because you kind of even as you have rejected this you end up being drawn out as a representative of it. I be curious about out given what you've learned this Odyssey you've been on what would make in terms of how this is covered the world. Did you came from or this possibility of redemption. What do you feel would make this more possible in terms of how it's handled by journalists by academics next in our in public life or even for those of us just in our home communities in our in our congregations in our community organizations keep in mind that I come at my answer from the perspective of somebody who tried to be a good the white nationalist and to be very active voice in that and so my experience involves having Rolodex of media people that I've ah wanted to send an email to if I thought that there was something we were doing that should be story where the and if some some white nationalist activist wants to be in the news news there is a dynamic there where they can say I'm having a press conference and major press show up selling inflammatory and it gets covered and then we talk about it for a while and we're looking at that dynamic happened and realizing how easy that is how low cost it is makes me quite uncomfortable uncomfortable and it's also not so easy to say oh don't cover them because it is an aspect of America and it's maybe larger than and we like even though this movement itself is small and doesn't hold influence a lot of the beliefs can resonate in large large swath of America in ways that we don't like so we do need to be aware of it and you can't say you're not going to look at it?.

Derek Derek Krista Tippett Matthew Stevenson Derek Black US United States Holocaust Memori David Duke Dunkin donuts Washington America Georgetown Goto hotel Florida Holocaust Museum representative two years five minutes
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

12:27 min | 1 year ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"When for a time you were still doing that radio show I think and you were still going to dinner Jenner on Friday night and that this friendship and this human connection that there was this his time involved. There's something also really impressive to me. When I look at when you were away an upperclassman was doing a research project discovered heard your activities online and sort of posted that for the community to see look who's in our midst and you know this flies very much in the face of what we hear about college campuses now where all you can imagine and I think we also only here very extreme versions of what happens but it sounds. It's like there was a real dialogue that went on and of course there were people who were alarmed but I mean matthew you describe that there were also people saying you know there were people writing and and saying out loud online right away whereas it you know. I don't know how it's not going to do any. It's not gonNA affect anything if we just ostracized Eric so there was this discernment which feels very sophisticated to me and you yeah so. Would you talk talk about that about that dynamic. Does that strike the two of you now as you look back because I think this is really important intelligence for the rest of us to figure out how does something something like this happen on a college campus and turn out this way but also there was that investment of time and relationship that you made okay so I'll start. It's spot on the money that it's easy to gloss over the fact that between the time Derek was I invited one of these Chabad dinners and the time that really I had any real awareness awareness that his views on white nationals had changed what was about two years apart every week coming over spending hours US receiving frankly a lot of criticism of other people on the campus. Not Everybody would certain people on the campus for what I was doing including friends who had been coming to these dinners previously and stopped coming because they didn't want to be around Derek. Did some people start coming again or did they make up of those dinners change to some extent. The makeup of the dinners changed but I think that over time there were certainly people I can think of specific examples where people who had initially been so vehemently opposed eventually. Let's say slowly warmed the idea. I think that one thing is you mentioned before the fact that might have been easy for me to feel threatened or or victimized in the I in some ways I felt like I I had a unique opportunity because of my relatively visible identity to be able to extend a hand in a way that students a Catholic student might not have been able to do in the same way because it might look in some sense that he was supporting the ideology that was being proposed a I think most people were reasonable. Even the people might critics do not think that I was a white nationalist so people on campuses today have different backgrounds and not everyone has the same opportunity set but I think the fact act that someone is. Let's say the one that's extensively victimized by the geology may give them a unique perspective a Nika ability to actually reach out Auden to bridge person yes and obviously with the qualification that you you were not physically threatened. by. Derrick Derrick was not a violent person and so you never beat me up. No I mean for whatever he was about that could could be reprehensible so that that would be a boundary but but in this case I think it's counter intuitive but very interesting again intelligence social intelligence that a person who looks like who actually had an identity that that was most opposed could also be that step into that uncomfortable place absolutely and you mentioned this before. You didn't those dinners were not. You didn't talk about white nationalism like they. They the the conversation was not about what you did this week. You talked about superficial easy. Things like religion in fact we I. I remember the first time that Derek was invited over. I was very very explicit with people that this was not ambushed. Derek time this was not some opportunity to to yell at him for the wrong of his beliefs because I knew he would first of all he'd spent his whole life defending this ideology. I didn't spend my whole life attacking checking the statistics and other things that they built their ideological convictions on as a consequence. I knew that shouting at them or at least I felt shouting at him. It's something like that or having anybody else at the table do so we just immediately put him on defensive and he'd never come back so I was various was that people were not to discuss his background at the table or the white nationals and more generally. It's so you know you say it in such. That's a matter of fact way. It's a real piece of emotional intelligence. I mean I feel like right now in our country. We kind of forget that if we really you want people to change like that. It has never happened in human history that somebody changed because someone else told them how stupid they were. I I don't know did you were you. What was that experience like for you. I mean you must have wondered also when you first went. Are they going to grill me about this will be put on this. You're less worried about being grilled than what actually happened. Where I wasn't grilled in had the spend ultimately years of really enjoyable time among people who the fact that I was friends with them was contradictory contradictory to my world view and that was a lot more uncomfortable than had I been grill because I had a background doing media interviews since I was twelve years old where people say how do you believe in hate and I had crime statistics and Statistics and history of American in white supremacist statements from the founding fathers and other things like that tend to confuse people when a fourteen year old explains to them why a all the racist should be separated and I was pretty comfortable with that position like I thought it was important and I knew how to do it and if it had been a big argument I would have had statistics I would have missed used social science and I would have not changed their mind and not change my own mind but I would've at least known what was is going on. I think the real thing that happened at a dinner for two years and I had to say well. I think my ideology is very anti Semitic. Maybe this dinner though that's that's a conflict yeah uh I I was thinking as I was preparing to interview the two of you about other conversations. I've had an and you know or just like A. I was speaking with somebody earlier. This year about Hannah Arendt who of course had to leave Germany a two two and covered the trial of I and Jerusalem she had all kinds of really big ideas about the importance of friendship chip like friendship especially when times are hard and deliberative friendship as political work as societal work that should that could it'd be everyday practice in classrooms and schools and then I was reading Elisha Weisel writing. My father was a builder of bridges. She's across generations. He valued friendship as an ideal above all others so I think there's quite a lineage for this thing. You've experienced. It's very serious in a way as much as it has was also clearly also worth pointing out that I mean over those two years. I was legitimately friends with Derek. It was not some sever ties project or I was going undercover or something yeah I mean I was legitimately felt like I was especially over time card amongst my closest friends even when I frankly didn't know exactly where he stood and you weren't asking at first as I mentioned. I was afraid that if I were to ask the the defenses would go up and that would be the end of it later on well after two years. It's a little awkward given play Games because he knew yeah I knew and I knew that he was so so there would be awkward. Things screwed with him once at this conference that he mentioned he knew he was doing. It was organized organized so I asked him. What are you doing. This weekend is going to see some families where you're so little cat and mouse game my answer through was going to a family reunion which was not untrue my entire ask what else is going on well. It was a seminar that I had founded the year before in response to being outed at new college. I I had been very uncomfortable with the fact that so many people at this college really detested what I was representing even though I thought it was super correct so in response to that the first year I had organized the seminar up in the mountains of Tennessee where people were small group would come together and we would talk about the best ways to argue with anti-racists and to convince people that white nationalism is correct and this was a year later after that initial one and I was a lot less certain what I believed and I was going back to it for the support and it sounds like you saw what happened is that you never made the ship. Dinners never became conversations about white nationalism but then gradually gradually over a period of time in my understanding Derek individuals would bring something up with you and you and I also feel like you all you handle. Both both of your you handle this so well and feels like the campus handle it well so so you would end up taking a walk with somebody and they would say I really and want to understand this and that started a different level of conversation. You have people I met at the Chabad in particular one person who did the brunt of all this labor of listening to me explain this ideology and what all is my evidence forward and why am I so convinced this is true and then doing the labor to say you are misusing crime statistics. Here's how statistics works and having that sort of conversation happened sort of naturally Shirley was from meeting at the dinners but then being on a small campus and doing things like let's go down to the bay to watch the sunset and just spend time as people bowl and eventually it becomes sort of awkward that we've never talked about that you believe in reprehensible political ideology the and you're advocating something terrible and you seem kind of. Nice you reconciled each other well enough that they could actually say to you that way because it was lower stakes than being on an interview for MSNBC or something it was not that I had to make my points and try to get some converts it was that I trusted this person..

Derek Jenner matthew Eric Derrick Derrick MSNBC Chabad Hannah Arendt Tennessee Auden Germany Shirley Elisha Weisel two years fourteen year twelve years
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

11:35 min | 1 year ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"Qualification that you you were not physically threatened by Derek right like Derek was not a violent person in and so no no I mean for whatever he was about that could could be reprehensible and so that that that would be a boundary but but in this case I think it's counter intuitive but very interesting again intelligence social intelligence that a person who looks like you know who actually had had an identity that that was most opposed could also be that step into that uncomfortable place and you mentioned this before. You didn't those dinners were not. You didn't talk about white nationalism like the conversation was not about what you did this week. You talked about superficial official easy things like religion and in fact we I remember the first time that was invited over. I was very explicit with people that at this was not ambush Derek time this was not some opportunity to yell at him for the wrong is of his beliefs because I knew that he would first of all he'd spent his whole life defending this ideology I didn't spend my whole life attacking the statistics and other things that they built their ideological convictions on as the consequence. I knew that shouting at them or at least I felt that shouting at him. It's something like that or having anybody else at the table do so we just immediately put him on defensive and and he'd never come back so I was very that people were not to discuss his background at the table or the white nationalist more generally it so you know you say it in such a matter of fact way I mean I feel like right now in our country. We forget that if we really want people to change. I think that it has never happened in human history that somebody changed because someone else told them how stupid they were. What was that experience like for you? I mean you must have wondered also when you first went are are they going to grill me about this. So we'll put on this. I think I was less worried about being grilled than what actually happened where I wasn't sent grilled and had to spend ultimately years of really enjoyable time among people who the fact that I was friends with them was contradictory to my world view and that was a lot more uncomfortable than had been grilled because I had a background doing media interviews since I was twelve years old where people say how do you believe in hate and I had crime statistics and accused statistics extend the history of American white supremacists statements from the founding fathers and other things like that that tend to confuse people people when a fourteen year old explained to them why all the racist should be separated. I was pretty comfortable with that position like I thought it was important and I knew how to do it and and if it had been a big argument I would have had statistics I would have missed used social science and I would have not changed their mind and not change change my own mind but I would at least known what was going on. I think the real thing that happened where I was just added Shebab dinner here for two years and I had to say well. I think my ideology is very anti Semitic this dinner though that's that's that's conflict yeah I was thinking as I was preparing to interview the two of you about other conversations. I've had and you know or just like I was speaking with somebody earlier this year about Hannah Arendt who of course had to leave Germany Ado and covered covered the trial of I find Andrew slammed she had all kinds of really big ideas about the importance of friendship like friendship especially when times are hard and deliberative friendship as political work as societal work that should that could be everyday practice in classrooms and in schools and I was reading Elisha Weisel writing. My father was a builder of bridges across generations. He valued friendship as an ideal. He'll above all others so I think there's quite a lineage for this thing. You've experienced very serious in no way as much as it has was also clearly. It's also worth pointing out over those two years. I was legitimately friends with Derek. It was not some sabotage project or I was going undercover or something I mean I was legitimately felt like I was especially over time Carterton -mongst my closest friends even when I frankly didn't know exactly where he stood and you weren't asking its first as I mentioned and I was afraid that if I were to ask that the defenses would go up and at the end of it later on after two years it's a little locker given play games because he knew that I knew and I knew that he was so so there would be awkward things. I screwed with him once at this conference that he mentioned. I knew he was doing it so I asked. What are you doing this weekend going to see some families aware so little cat and mouse game and my answer was I'm going to family reunion which was not untrue my entire family what what else was going on well? It was a seminar that I had founded the year before in response to being outed at New College. I I had been very uncomfortable with the fact that so many people at this college really detested what I was representing even though I thought it was super correct so in response to that the first year I had Organiz this seminar up in in the mountains of Tennessee where people were small group we come together and we would talk about the best ways to argue with anti-racists racists and to convince people that white nationalism is correct and this was a year later after that initial one and I was a lot less certain what I believed believed and I was going back to it for the second sport so what happened is that you never made the Chabad about dinners never became conversations about white nationalism but then gradually over a period of time in my understanding Derek individuals would bring something up with you and you and I don't know you also feel like you. Are you handle this so well and feels like the campus handle it well so so you would end up up taking a walk with somebody and they would say I really want to understand this and that started a different level of conversation. The people I met at the Chabad in particular one person who did the brunt of all this labor of listening to me explain this ideology and what all is my evidence forward and why am I so convinced this is true and then doing the labor to say you are misusing crime statistics. Here's how statistics six works and having that sort of conversation happened sort of naturally it was from meeting at the dinners but then being on a small campus and doing things things like let's go down to the bay to watch the sunset and just spend time as people and eventually it becomes sort of awkward that we've never talked about that you believe in reprehensible political ideology and you're advocating something terrible and you seem kind of Nice. How do you reconcile all that and you knew each other well enough that they could actually say to you that way because it was lower stakes than being on an interview AFOR MSNBC or something it was not that I had to make my points and try to get some converts it was that I trusted this person? I like this person I respected. This person and I wanted to explain why I think this is correct because it's clearly correct If you don't want to accept that it's true. That's you know decision a decision you can make but it's an uncomfortable truth and that was the position I was coming from and explaining that to trusted friend in private where I'm not trying to score points aints didn't seem like it was a danger to my belief system because that was foundationally true. I entered it thinking that I I was just talking to a friend and then a couple years later came out the other end realizing that everything I believed about human nature was totally incorrect and what do I do do about this now. So those those two years also and I I do feel like I'm belaboring all these points but I feel like this is kind of a step-by-step by step right because what also happened that you're describing that nobody was charting was that you got to a point where when you trotted out your arguments that you were so skilled in and so comfortable with but it did actually become a conversation you were actually able well to listen to a different way of seeing even those arguments that felt so so clear to you I wanted to be as someone who used evidence and believe something because it was demonstrable not because it was some gut feeling and if the way we were using thing I q statistics from around the world was illegitimate because the Iq test is culturally norms and you can't go around the world giving it to people and say look. I've discovered the different intelligence of the races. If that's actually an illegitimate piece of evidence I didn't want to use it which is why at the time. I thought I'm becoming a better white nationalist. I'm becoming better at arguing this because I know understand how these things are being misused and it's only at the end where piece after piece after your piece is removed and all sort of left with is the fact that I think that I can be friends with Jewish students and with people of Color but my belief system says that they should all be removed from the United States and I don't have any any support for thinking that anyone is better better off all that is hateful ideology and like what do I do about my identity and my family. My future is all tied up in that that was true ruined. I needed active reactive for it and like what decision do I make. Now was a terrible crisis point. I just I just wanted to disappear never speak again but it was a whole nother conversation where decided with the same person decided i. I need to make a letter denouncing this. I can't just never be heard from so so is that series of conversations that then led to your writing the letter writing something public and my instinct was just the quiet and it was one last hard thing to realize that I had done too much damage in my activism to just be quiet quiet now after a short break more with Derek lack and Matthew.

Derek official Chabad New College MSNBC Hannah Arendt Shebab United States Germany Ado Tennessee Elisha Weisel Andrew Matthew two years fourteen year twelve years
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

15:23 min | 1 year ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"Org. I'm KRISTA Tippett up next my unedited conversation with Derek Black and Matthew Stevenson. There is a shorter produced this version of this wherever you found this podcast. There's o'clock good afternoon. I have one announcement in there because of time constraints and we are recording this for potential broadcast on being we are not going to be able to take questions agents from the audience but the three of us will be around after the conversation and very open and interested in continuing to be in a dialogue with you. I want to just say also what an honor it is to be to to for this invitation to come in and to be here here with you today and to be here with Matthew Stevenson and Derek Black. Can you all hear me. Is that okay. We're working with no working with it doesn't matter though does it okay yeah. We actually this technology. We have two microphones but this one is for the radio so I am. I'm just going to try to we will try to project. you have lengthy. BIOS in your in your program so I won't repeat all of that. I will just say briefly that Matthew Stevenson is currently pursuing being an MBA at Columbia business school and Derek black is currently pursuing graduate work in medieval history at the University of Chicago may met at New College in Sarasota floor. Yes Sarasota Florida. Is it right that that's the honors. College of Derek grew up in some ways the the future face of one of the largest white nationalist communities in the world his father had been a grand wizard of the K. K. K. David Duke was his godfather and I wanna read just a couple of lines about about how Derek begins at a definition of white nationalism as he as he internalized at growing growing up that white nationalism supports the premise that multiculturalism is a failure and that politicians TR- trapped in a multicultural status quo are oppressing white people in their own country. They typically blame the West Movement towards inclusion on a conspiracy of Jewish power to promote multiculturalism at the expense expensive whites which makes it all the more remarkable that one day in two thousand ten after his white nationalist nationalist background and activities had been exposed by an upperclassman at new college. He was just in his second semester there and actually was away from campus purpose when this happened. Matthew Stevenson invited him to Shebab dinner and kept inviting him for the next two years and so I think as much as anything else what we're here to do today is experienced. The friendship between these two young men and draw out the wisdom has done and practical lessons their friendship might hold for how human beings and societies can find their way beyond what makes hatred and Holocaust Lacoste Possible Matthew I think were you the only Orthodox do on campus or one of few as far as I'm aware is the only one yes okay and so here's imagine many people in that situation with what had just been revealed about what Derek was part of the the AH very understandable. Human Impulse would have been to feel like perhaps one of the most vulnerable people on campus what I want to ask you is if you could think to what in the Orthodox Jewish teaching and sensibility of that you had grown up in what in that made it seem obvious to you to extend the invitation to Chaban dinner sure so growing up as a student cabal center one of the things that was emphasized is probably more than anything else was treating other people with human dignity regardless of who they were or what they believed or whether background krone was and that was just as true for Derek was for anybody else and I saw that when the news broke about his his background ground he had not been publicly voicing those us to other students at the school so it was a big surprise you to knew each other right. Were you in the same dormitory we he lived downstairs from me and I would sing along when he played country and Western songs on his guitar poorly I might add ed but never did nevertheless when the news broke people many people not everyone but many people I saw trading derek very poorly tried to make his life as miserable as possible and I think was a misguided attempt to change the situation and at that time I had been hosting these Shibat dinners in in my dorm room every Friday night along with my close friend Moshe ask and we spoke about it and decided that there was an opportunity we knew the Derek had grown up in a white nationalist family amongst white nationalist royalty so to speak and probably didn't know any people from the backgrounds that his ideology despised and so we have the unique opportunity maybe the only time in Derek's life that he would be in a position to actually see to get to know on a personal level those kind of people so for that reason I decided along with Moshe to invite Derek tecom Derek with their religious background in your childhood. I haven't read anything about that. I said no both of my parents were raised. He's by Protestant Christians and both of them became atheists when they were teenagers and in college. I was raised by with a strong enough conviction that I was sent to Sunday school. When I was a kid and I remember asking my dad for years later. What was the incentive for that because I enjoyed it a lot. I got awards for Memorizing Bible verses and he said it was because I wanted you to be familiar with religion so that later on you couldn't say I had kept it from. You and I and you would understand that. Atheism made the most sense you know I I guess I wonder how to ask this question. I wonder was there something in that formation of your childhood or or perhaps something in you that rebelled against that formation perhaps that you weren't yourself even so that you would never recognize that led you to say yes to this invitation to have Shebab dinner. I don't know I think it's significant significant that during those couple of years when I kept coming back to Matthew Chabad dinners. We always avoided talking about the elephant in the room you one of my activism blue we did talk about was religious studies not not just personal conviction but just the idea of religions around the world. I think it was one of the main point we talked about as we're both very curious about. It and I don't know what it means. I definitely was not leaning towards becoming a theus. Yes I still I'm not I studied divinity in graduate school as a curiosity is only find interesting for humanity and I don't know exactly what it means. Actually that one the main things we talked about for years when we were sort of trying to avoid talking about harder stuff so talked about religion you know you had actually ventured into local conservative politics successfully before you went off to college. You were Starting men out seems like when you when you can't tell that when you decided to go to a liberal liberal arts college both both liberal and liberal arts that that they that they stood in your way is that I mean you were. I don't think so I I was really convinced convinced that families ideology that I was trying to become a major activist for was so fundamentally profoundly correct that I wasn't going to be convinced it was wrong because it had too much evidence to support it and going to college made a lot of sense because it was the honors this college in the State of Florida and it had the low Florida in costs to in state tuition and it had a good medieval studies program and I had absolutely no worries about about having my mind changed I because they were all right and that is so it seems like you had a good good experience and but it would there was nothing also in that first semester or or the second semester I mean there was no earthquake for you that you landed there and started to change and you in fact you were still doing the radio show every day. Yeah it started a radio show before going to college in for a while. I kept upped it up. I kept my dad took it over but I would try to call in and be a co host and looking back. The infrequency of how often I would call in was a retrospective on my mind changing but at the time it didn't feel that way. Try to call in less and less and then looking back. I say well go trying to avoid it for the time. I thought it was busy. You know it does strike me that you that was storefront. Your father started the storefront storm front which has been called the first major. Internet hate site and I wonder the drive me about one is that it was kind of like you said you weren't religious but it's that was kind of like your family mission right and it was and it was very much a community around that would you have described it as a hate site. When you were growing up the same way that community would never ever use the word racist say absolutely not racist because that means bad person and we're not bad people we don't hate and we don't on dislike. We're just interested in preserving our own that sort of language would never happen within the movement itself. Would you even say that that's the way you thought about what was going on to yourself or within the community in what way would you you think of as being what it was about. No no no it was purely in the sense that there is an opposition and mainstream society to this clearly biologically true incorrect and socially correct ideology and so they come up with insult select like the word racist and hate and the job of an activist is to sidestep and point out the hypocrisy of them using this word hate and it's not something that people attribute to themselves or think that others are correct to use it I mean I guess I'm even curious about whether if you if you think about it from the outside now I mean did. Did you feel hate. When was that in your body that even Camin it's difficult to answer in the sense that our motivation was much much more focused on each other other people within the movement itself and going to events and seeing each other and reinforcing that you believe this and I believe this and it's us against the world and if this we don't advocate this no one else will and almost all the mental space this was devoted to that trying to talk to other people who believe in the white nationalist ideology and reaffirm that we're in this together and very very little mental space was actually spent on anybody else and even worrying. If what we're advocating has a negative impact act on anyone else because we were so convinced that it was right for us and for the world and and there was no possibility that that wasn't true so so what would have looked like hate mongering to someone else for you. Was it inside the community was almost byproduct of that focus on on the US I think so I actually have experience of one of the people who I met at Matthews Chabad dinners at one point actually agreed to come to a seminar that I had organized. She was completely opposed. I thought the idea was horrendous but we had actually been having these quiet conversations and she wanted to see if the way that I explained it to her in private private look the same as when I was trying to explain it to fellow people and after that debriefing and saying what what did you think was one of the first instances where I could look at it and say that calling this hate actually kind of makes sense because afterward. She said why are you. Why are all these these people are so focused on denying the Holocaust. Why are these people so focused on a Jewish conspiracy in America. What does that that have to do with loving your own. That's that's that's hate and I didn't have a good answer. I not really sure why they're so oh focused on denying the Holocaust ever happened it clearly happened and why is that so intrinsic to the ideology and that led there's some conversations where I started seeing things from a different perspective that I hadn't when I was growing up in it when I was just talking to people for whom that was totally normal so what I think when I read about the two of you your friendship story I feel like it's this linear thing that that you grew up the way you did. You went to college and were exposed. Matthew invited judicial bought and then you you're right this and then you you you disavow your background and right this rather famous article for the Southern Poverty Law Center what I feel get skipped over or these two to three years..

Derek tecom Derek Matthew Stevenson Derek Black KRISTA Tippett New College Sarasota Matthew Chabad Sunday school Matthew Florida US Columbia business school America University of Chicago Southern Poverty Law Center Chaban Moshe Shebab K. K. K. David Duke
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

13:25 min | 1 year ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"I'd heard Derek black the former white power or era parent interviewed before about his past but never about the friendships that unfolded over two years with other people in their twenties that changed him mm-hmm. David Duke was Derek Godfather Derek designed the kids page when he was eleven for what is known as the first major Internet hate site which his father created created and still leads but after Derek's ideology was outed in his first year at New College in Florida one of the only Orthodox Jews on Campus Matthew Author Stevenson invited him to Chabad dinner what happened next is a roadmap for navigating some of the hardest and most important territory of with our time. It wasn't just I'm angry and you're angry. Once we were quiet enough to talk about it there there were points to be made that white nationalism was was incompatible with a free society and it wasn't the first time I had heard. That wasn't the first time that somebody told me that racism is bad. It was just the first I saw that I've been willing to listen to it. I think it's also worth pointing out that over those two years I was legitimately friends with Eric. Even when I frankly didn't know I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being I interviewed Derek and Matthew together at the invitation of the United States Holocaust memorial museum in a room that included in many Holocaust survivors the world in which Derek Black was raised hold multiculturalism responsible for pressing white people in their own country and conspiracy of Jewish power behind this which makes it all the more remarkable that Matthew Stevenson's response to learning about Derek's ideology was to text doc stem and ask. What are you doing this Friday night new to knew each other right were you in the same dormitory? We live downstairs from me and I would sing along when he played country and Western songs on his guitar poorly I might add but nevertheless uh when the news broke people many people not everyone many people I saw treating Derek very poorly. I mean trying to make life as miserable as possible. Oh I think maybe a misguided attempt to change the situation and that time I had been hosting these Chabad dinners in my dorm room every Friday night along with my close friend Moche ask and we spoke about it and decided that there was an opportunity we knew the Derek had grown up in a white nationalist family early amongst white nationalist royalty so to speak and probably didn't know any people from the backgrounds that his ideology despised so for that reason tonight decided along with Moshi to invite Derek tecom Derek. was there a religious background in your childhood. I haven't read anything about Ah no both of my parents were raised by a Protestant Christians and both of them became atheists when they were teenagers. Here's an college. I was raised by atheists with a strong enough conviction that I was sent Sunday school when I was a kid and I remember asking my dad for years later boom whom you know what was the incentive for that because I had enjoyed it a lot. I got awards for Memorizing Bible verses and he said it was because I wanted you to be familiar with religion religion so that later on you couldn't say I had kept it from you and you would understand that atheism made the most sense you you know i. I guess I wonder how question I wonder. was there something in that formation of your childhood or or perhaps something in your that rebelled against that formation. Perhaps that you weren't yourself even so that you would never recognize that led you to say yes to this invitation to have shebab dinner. I don't know I think think it's significant that during those couple of years when I kept coming back to Matthew's show bought dinners we always avoided talking about the elephant in the room. You Know My activism Bola we did talk about was religious studies not not just personal conviction but just the idea of religions around the world. I think that was one of the main point we talked about. We're both very curious about it and I don't know what it means. I definitely was not leaning towards becoming yeah theus. I still am not I studied divinity in graduate school as a curiosity is only I find interesting for humanity and I don't know exactly what it means. Actually that is is one of the main things we talked about for years when we were sort of trying to avoid talking about harder stuff so we talked about religion and you know it does strike me that you know what your father started storm front which has been called the first major Internet hate eight site and I wonder would you have described it as a hate site when you were growing up and you know the the same way that the community he would never use the word racist say absolutely not racist because that means bad person and we're not bad people we don't hate and do we don't dislike we're just interested in preserving our own and that sort of language would never happen within the movement itself. Would you even say that that's the way you thought about what was going on to yourself or within the community would you think of I hate as being what it was about. No no no it was purely in the sense that there is an opposition in in mainstream society to this clearly biologically true incorrect and socially correct ideology and so they come up with insult select the word racist and hate and the the job of an activist is to sidestep and point out the hypocrisy of them using this word hate and it's not something that people people attributed to themselves or think that others are correct to use it. Our motivation was much more focused on each other other there are people within the movement itself and going to events and seeing each other and reinforcing that you believe this and I believe this and it's us against the world and if we don't advocate this no one else will and almost all the mental space was devoted to that trying to talk to other people all who believe in the white nationalist ideology and reaffirm that we're in this together and very little mental space was actually spent went on anybody else and even worrying. If what we're advocating has a negative impact on anyone else because we were so convinced that it was right for us and for the world and and there was no possibility that that wasn't true so what would have looked like hate mongering to someone else for you was inside the community was almost a byproduct of that focus on the US I think so I actually have experienced one of the people who I met at Matthews Chabad dinners at one point actually agreed to come to WHO seminar that I had organized she was completely opposed. Nationalism thought the idea was horrendous but we had actually been having these quiet conversations sons and she wanted to see if the way that I explained it to her in private look the same as when I was trying to explain it to fellow people and after that debriefing and saying what what did you think was one of the first instances where I could look at it and say that calling this hate actually really kind of makes sense because afterward she said why are all these people here are so focused on denying the Holocaust. Why are these people so focused on a Jewish conspiracy conspiracy in America? What does that have to do with loving your own? That's hate and I didn't have a good answer I i. I not really sure why they're so focused. On denying the Holocaust ever happened it clearly happened and why is that so intrinsic to the ideology Asia and that led to some conversations where I started seeing things from a different perspective that I hadn't when I was growing up when I was just talking to people for whom that was totally normal I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today a public conversation with Derek black once a white nationalist era parent and and Matthew Stevenson whose friendship brought him beyond that when i read about the two of you your friendship in this story I feel like it's this linear thing. I'm that you grew up the way you did. You went to college and were exposed. Matthew invited judicial bought and then you disavow your background and right this rather famous article for the Southern Poverty Law center what I feel gets skipped over or these these two to three years when for a time you were still doing that radio show I think and you were still going to ship out dinner on Friday night and that this friendship French ship and this human connection that there was this time involved. There's something also really impressive to me. You were away an upperclassman was doing research project discovered your activities online and sort of posted that for the community to see look who's in our midst and you know this is very much in the face of what we hear about college campuses now where all you can imagine and I think we also only here very extreme versions of what happens but you know it sounds like there was a real dialogue that went on and of course there were people who were alarmed but I mean you described that there were also people writing and saying out out loud online right away whereas it you know it's not going to affect anything if we just ostracized Eric so there was this discernment which feels very sophisticated to me and does that strike the two of you now as you look back because I think this is really important intelligence for the rest of vest figure out. How does something like this happen on a college campus in turn out this way but also there was that investment of time and relationship that you made Maine so I'll start? It's I think spot on the money that it's easy to gloss over the fact that between the time Derek was I invited one of the Chabad dinners and the time that really I had any real awareness that his views on white nationalism had changed it was about two years apart. That's two years of every week coming over spending hours receiving frankly a lot of criticism of other people on the campus not everybody would certain people on the campus for what I was doing colluding friends who had been coming to these dinners previously and stopped coming because they didn't. I don't WanNa be around Derek it. Did some people start coming again or did they make those dinners change to some extent. The makeup of the dinners changed but I think that over over time there were certainly people I can dig specific examples where people who had initially been so vehemently opposed eventually. Let's say slowly warm to the idea. I think that one thing is you mentioned before the fact that it might have been easy for me to feel threatened or victimized is D- in some ways I felt like I had a unique opportunity because of my relatively visible identity to to be able to extend a hand in a way that students a Catholic student might not have been able to do in the same way because it might look in some sense that he was supporting and the ideology that was being proposed of. I think most people were reasonable. Even the people might critics a white nationalist so in people on campuses today have different backgrounds and not everyone has the same opportunity set but I think the fact that someone is. Let's say the one that's extensively victimized by the ideology may give them a unique perspective an ability to actually reach out and to be that bridge person yes and obviously with the.

Derek Black Matthew Author Stevenson Krista Tippett Derek tecom Derek. Eric David Duke United States Holocaust memori Florida US New College Moche America Southern Poverty Law Maine Asia two years three years
"derek black" Discussed on KQED Radio

KQED Radio

04:47 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on KQED Radio

"This is fresh air the social media posts and statements made by Robert Bowers who shot and killed eleven congregants, a Pittsburgh synagogue, Saturday echo, the views of the white nationalist movement regarding to hear an excerpt from the interview I recruited in September about that movement with Garrick black who had been one of the young leaders of the movement before renouncing those views when he was twenty two he helped popularize some of the buzzwords used by Bowers Derek's father, Don black is a former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and founded the largest white nationalist website storm front. Derek black is the subject of the book rising out of hatred by Pulitzer prize winning Washington Post reporter, Eli Sasso who we heard from earlier in the show my interview with black also included SAS slow the first question was addressed to Derrick black. So you're part of the rebranding process from white supremacy to white nationalism white supremacy. Meaning white people are better than white national not nationalism kind of toned it down to. It's like it's not that we're better than but we're all better off being separated. By by race is like. Term white nationalism. Is that was his thing. Yeah. He didn't invent it. But he was it was the main group that really popularize in one of the earliest wants to adopted and when he founded storm front called it a white nationalist community, and he saw the distinction between white nationalism and white supremacy is being one that he didn't want anything bad for anyone else. He just wanted everybody to be forcibly put in different spaces. And that that was not about superiority it was just about the wellbeing of everybody. And that that's the that was what he thought was the difference there in looking back on it. This is totally irrationally. How exactly you think you're going to forcibly separate everybody in that? That's not supremacy for a second. I've always wanted to know the early people who rebranded white supremacy to white nationalism. Whether they saw that as like, a smart move to help mainstream the movement and make it more palatable or whether they really believed. That there was a difference between the white supremacy and white nationalism. They really did believe they were not doing bad things to other people that the accusations of violence and hatred and racism were just insults put towards him and that they really did just want. What's best for white people, and then by extension other people, and it may be unpleasant to do that. But really in the long run. Everything's gonna be much better. The the answer for what they thought rebranding. It would do was that they believed America was founded as a white supremacist country, and that that was not gone that the civil rights movement had changed the language, and it made it much more difficult to speak about race when their job was just to give people a space to say racist ideas in a more explicit, proud confident way these instruments everybody is basically a white people are basically racist. They're just afraid to express it. So let's give them a language and a safe space. So they don't like the word racist. I think that's a made up insult were. They cleansed word. Racialist racial over the years. If you look at the language in terms of how many people in this movement have identified themselves. It went from the K K K to white supremacists to white power to white pride to white nationalist him. So every time becoming a little bit more subtle and a little bit more pernicious. I think the thing that's complicated. Now, when we talk about white, nationalist, I white supremacy is that white nationalism. I think effectively identifies a movement of people who are actively pursuing an end cause of separating races into into different homelands, white supremacy. Unfortunately, it's something that's much more endemic and much more structured into what the country is. So if we're talking about these people has white supremacists. It doesn't quite distinguish the movement in the same way because much of much of the country was founded on things that are white supremacist in many. Of our structures are based on white supremacy. So that's the distinction distinction sometimes in the language that I think is still effective and useful for us as we talk about it. We're listening to the interview I recorded in September with Derek black. A former young leader of the white nationalist movement who has since renounced those views and Washington Post. Reporter Eli Sasso who wrote a book about black called rising out of hatred will hear more after a break. I'm Terry gross. And this is fresh air..

Eli Sasso Derek black Washington Post Ku Klux Klan reporter Derrick black Bowers Derek Pulitzer prize Pittsburgh Robert Bowers Terry gross Garrick America
"derek black" Discussed on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah: Ears Edition

The Daily Show with Trevor Noah: Ears Edition

02:58 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah: Ears Edition

"Welcome to the show. I'm going to jump straight into it because this is on honestly, one of the most fascinating stories I've ever come across. I remember op Ed, you wrote about it, but I'm gonna start with you. How do you decide to write the story? How do you believe the story and wait, you stop in saying his a foam white nationalist. When did you start learning about Derek? So I was writing about Dylann roof who'd committed the hate murder, nine people in a church in Charleston, South Carolina, historically black church, and he'd spent a lot of time on the site called storm front. So I went on the site to try to learn about him, learn about this community. It's the largest hate site in the world, and there were certainly threads on there saying really upsetting things about what Dylann roof had done celebrating him. But the biggest threat was about somebody named Derek black who was the son of the founder of this board. David duke's godson had been raised, sort of lead this ideology right, and then had disavowed it and sort of disappeared. And so I wanted to find him and I did. So you looking for a man by the name of Derek black who people are saying on the sites as the basically the mastermind behind this. Ideology. Someone who's in spy of them when you reading through these threads ideas, you say hates, but like, what are we specifically speaking about? Well, in Derek's case, we're talking about somebody who is on the radio every day. He had a radio show every day talking about anti immigration, talking points, talking about spreading false information about q scores with different races and Ryan white people were smarter. We're talking about somebody index case who had already run for office in Florida spreading this kind of information and been elected, had risen to a position of power and then had written a letter later on to the southern poverty Law Center. Unwinding all of these talking points all of the reasons he'd had the facts totally wrong, right? And trying to convince other people that these conclusions were disastrous for the future of the country. Now, Derek on your side, you have a really interesting story. You know, a lot of the time people say nobody's born racist, but I feel like you will one of the few people who's close to this place because, oh, because you you'll, mom was married. Today the Duke. You were born into a family of the Ku Klux Klan. So from the very beginning, you were taught to think a certain way. How do you even begin the journey of starting to think differently? I didn't until I was at college. I spent my all the younger years, getting more more involved than feeling. I really needed to help push this as we're getting older, and it wasn't until this weird experience of being outside of that in this different environment and seeing people who were not supposed to fit into my in group who I really liked and we were hanging out and and also a college community that really condemned everything I was saying, and I wanted to know first thing I want to know why do you condemn it? So strongly like, I think it's fine. It's not attacking anyone. You genuinely believe these ideas like we just when you alone in your room by yourself, you went like, I believe this is either black people have low IQ's. I believe that people cannot mix. I like you..

Derek black Ku Klux Klan Dylann roof David duke Ryan white southern poverty Law Center South Carolina founder murder Charleston Florida
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

02:05 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"And it's psychologically pleasing and it's maybe fun but the terrible cost of that is that you run a very real risk of losing empathy for people who disagree with you and that's why i see people people who are my friends who i love dearly think nothing to say i hate so and so i i hate republicans i hate democrats like do they know what they're saying as far as hope i think that the underlying spark of goodness that's was didn't each and every one of us within everybody on the world is going to win out that this empathy that people can generate feel you can't stop it in the long run and is increasingly as people like derek speak up publicly i think that people will increasingly feel connected and it's true even today that you see connection largely digitally but i am much more aware of what goes on in china than my grandfather was or my great grandfather was i can see pictures in real time if things happening there that's a real direct connection i can feel their pain derek what makes you despair in what gives you hope i probably agree with matthew that i look away from the word despair and again though it's i probably do actually despair at times because by background informs my answer is i spent a lot of time trying to be a good activists for bad 'cause and i spent a lot of time seeing the ways that my predecessors had been successful at that you know whether it's winning campaigns or building organizations in large numbers.

china matthew
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

02:09 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"So we we just have a few more minutes and there's so much more we could talk about i guess you know i have this feeling and i want you to push back at me if you don't that that that the way we're grappling culturally with this right now is actually making it harder for people to move away from that that it's actually making it easy for that boundary to be crossed and i guess just in the last few minutes i and derek i certainly would like to hear from you you know talk to all of us and here i am asking you to do this huge thing but just when are what are what are what is a mentality what is way we could begin to think a question we begin to act small acts in the world that we can see in touch that would make it more likely more possible for someone to undergo the kind of transformation you've undergone no pressure it's too big but i the only lesson that i think that i took for my experience that i feel as fairly universal is that it was grounded in empathy that the reason why i was not willing to listen to the arguments that sound very straightforward that we should work towards inclusion not separation was because i didn't empathize with people who weren't part of my in group and i thought i wasn't necessarily doing anything bad to them but it was also the priority was the people or the people who were within my in group and what changed was feeling that people who are not in my in group or being negatively impacted by my actions and that i should care about that and trying to reconcile that i should care about people who are negatively impacted by my actions.

derek
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

01:51 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"Extremist movement is trying to see the sort of a sumptiousness that a lot of us have that will and if we have an assumption like maybe black people in chicago is the reason there's violence if we have an assumption like that which a lot of people do that a white nationalist could use that's sort of assumption we need to challenge and say that that's not true that's why do i have that assumption why do i even think that way because the arguments that are white nationalist you should find no fertile ground anywhere and they still do i think he hits a point on an important point usually when someone is asked to picture racism in america the image that comes to mind probably a robed klansmen in front of a burning cross there are very few people in america who'd be willing to engage in that sort of activity there are unfortunately a lot of people who are willing to engage the activity that derek described and there's a very real sets in which that's the danger that's the point which is very easy to suddenly say the person has a good point it's true and it's true by the way of course if there is violent their violence and cities so people can see that and they can see and make poor statistical inferences and suddenly they start to veer a little bit off the path of reason as we would see it but i it's just a little bit off the path not so far a little bit more and a little bit more until eventually aboard cross doesn't seem so crazy.

chicago america derek
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

02:32 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"You know one thing is you pointed out that that while a lot of these this white nationalist white supremacists energy and an organization is on the fringe definitely intervene not as you say not huge but you said something you've come to see us at the real issue with it and i think concerns you is that they're spinning this pretty extreme message and it's extreme position but it's also a position that kind of fits within american history that we are country that only a few decades ago only omitted white people as emigrants and a few few decades before that had decided to separate the races and i think when you put it in that context what that also is points that is that this is collective work we have to do and that we on every side of our political spectrum and social spectrum have this reckoning to do i think that more people should be aware and if maybe if nothing else comes out of hearing my story i think more people should be aware that the talking points that a white nationalist uses when they're trying to win a campaign or gain members or have a rally are things that a lot of people could find reasonable in the right light things things like we talk about violent crime in the south side of chicago and say oh what's wrong with the south side of chicago in a white nationalist will pick up that conversation and say who lives in the south side of chicago and there are very many reasonable people in america who say all i see the kind of people who live in the south dakota way must be those kind of people are criminal and i in white nationalist will do this constantly this is what they do they pick up things that people find sort of reasonable that are like our conversation in america about how what should we do about immigration what should we do about policing and they say look at the racial aspects don't you think it's kind of racial and the kind of things that their grandparents would've thought were quite reasonable and there's there's fertile ground there frequently and i think that the the important thing the only important thing that could come from looking at this.

chicago america south dakota
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

02:02 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"And i think that as you know when i feel like that's a passion behind how you're moving through the world now this is an important dynamics not just an american culture but in global culture i'm curious about given given what you've learned right this this odyssey you been on what would be what would make in terms of how this is covered the world you came from or this possibility of redemption how this is covered how it's discussed how it's analyzed what as you see that what what is i don't want to ask you for a critique but what do you feel would make this more possible in terms of how it's handled by journalists by akkad amax you know in our in public life and or even for those of us just in our home communities in our in our congregations in our in our in our community organizations keep in mind that i come at my answer from the perspective of somebody who tried to be a good white nationalist and to be very active voice in that and so my experience in involves having a rolodex of media people that i wanted to send an email to if i thought that there was something we were doing that should be story worthy and looking back on that i still see the same thing happening in the way a lot of white nationalists or other even extremist movements get covered is that there is a back and forth and if some some white nationalist activists wants to be in the news there is a dynamic there where they can say i'm having a press conference and major press show up and say something inflammatory it gets cover and then we all talk about it for a while.

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

02:40 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"Yeah i feel like this is instructive to because we live in a culture right now where everybody's very comfortable with their outrage right was just my outrage against your outrage on every side so i feel like this question of how did you can you're using that word outrage for like how did meaningful outrage right i mean one thing that strikes me derek is that you something that is very different in this equation is that you had taken yourself out of that us which you said was at the centre of all the the ideology about others and you had you were there in the middle of be other right that's actually a picture that is unfamiliar is becoming less familiar to us i don't think i anticipated what impact not being around a bunch of white nationalist would have because i thought that i was independently minded and i think i am and being in an environment where people were not checking my ideological purity every five minutes turned out to be freeing enough where i could ponder oh swat say what if this were not the case and thinking that way is only possible when i was not among the people who were telling me to be stronger in the fight and keep giving them hell even at home when i i didn't i lived in south florida is a fairly metropolis urban diverse place in even in that environment to when i was away from the house i could get support for white nationalism that was period where i got sort of semi famous at home and there was months that went by where i couldn't buy coffee at dunkin donuts in the morning without some stranger in line walking up to pay my bill because i was famous for advocating for white people and they just on some level thought that i was doing something good that it was a opposing political correctness and standing up for white people when everybody else gets it up and they were just normal people and that kind of positive reaction was very encouraging and at new college there was it was none of that there was a sense that we need to think about this very carefully because this.

derek south florida dunkin donuts five minutes
"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

02:01 min | 2 years ago

"derek black" Discussed on On Being with Krista Tippett

"I want to just say also what an honor it is to be to to for this invitation to come in and to be here with you today and to be here with matthew stevenson and derek black i can you hear me is that okay all right we're working with no working with this doesn't matter though does it okay yeah we actually this is technology we have two microphones but this one is for the radio so i am just going to try to we will just try to project you have lengthy bios in your in your program so i won't repeat all of that i will just say briefly that matthew stevenson is currently pursuing an mba at columbia business school and derek black is currently pursuing graduate work in medieval history at the university of chicago may met at new college in sarasota floor yes sarasota florida is it right that that's the honors college of that's okay derek grew up in some ways the the future face of one of the largest white nationalist communities in the world his father had been a grand wizard of the k k k david duke was his godfather and i wanna read just a couple of lines about how derek begins a definition of white nationalism as he as he internalized it growing up that white nationalism supports the premise that multiculturalism is a failure and that politicians trapped in a multicultural status quo are oppressing white people in their own country they typically blame the west movement towards inclusion on a conspiracy of jewish power to promote multiculturalism at the expense of whites.

matthew stevenson derek black university of chicago sarasota florida david duke