20 Episode results for "Delphi Indiana"

Chapter 1:  A Walk On The Bridge

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

55:29 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 1: A Walk On The Bridge

"What's the one thing you've never told anyone people just like you tell all in a podcast called the secret room if you're a true story fan and you cannot not get enough of people's most intimate dreams desires in shame? You will love the secret. Room like meals deathbed confession that our daughter's absent father the movie star. I wish I could tell someone who the father is. While I'm still on earth. Were Jen secret. Love affair with a man on death. Row It's tearing my world upside down and something then. He just has devastated me or the way that Joey falls in love with inanimate objects I know people who were in relationships with construction equipment. People all around you carry the most amazing secrets. You're invited to the secret room for a front row seat to spectacular stories. That will touch you jar you and amaze you. I'm Ben Ham your host search for the secret room. A podcast about the stories. No one ever tells uh to see some of the people and places we'll be talking about this season and to learn more about the case. visit our website down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM sir. What does it mean to you to see this memorial when you come out here? There's intersections tough for me. Always be tough for me. I closed my eyes and I can see him. You know I can see it. Came from the left side over here and that joking and cutting up like two younger who do probably probably and then they turn left in the world's about to change turn right not left however it is and whoever it was has stared at this nature reserves. I just like we right now. I know that even the first first day right here stood right here. You're the top COP in the state of Indiana. This happened in broad daylight light. How unusual is that aspect? I don't ever remember anything like this in my entire a business thirty five years and I don't remember anything quite like this. This is is just different for so many reasons. Just so many things have caused us to be different. And it doesn't minimize any other loss of of a child or of the MOM or dad or for anger anybody but the totality of this is different. Doug Carter is certain absolute absolutely without a doubt we all know that murders go unsolved all the time. That's a familiar story. But here's why the murders of Abigail Williams and liberty German thirteen and fourteen years old are different. We can see who did it. We can hear who did it but we still don't know I know who did it. Delphi Indiana is a small place just north of Indianapolis with about three thousand people. They'll tell you this kind of thing doesn't happen here and they were right until it did. We're approaching the bridge. Now what do you see as you look at it him. I can seem standing right out. There can seem standing right out there. Feel the same way every time I come here. Gosh Dang it look back this way. You'll see them walking here. You can see you can see just doing the girls do. Yeah Golan listen so quiet so peaceful then what occurred right down there just beyond evil beyond what you can unplug the human mind understand. There's a reason this all happen. It is not just. I just don't know what it is slow as you stand here today. Are you convinced. Instant this cases solvable. Yes took one hundred percent. One hundred percent Nearly three years and close to fifty thousand tips later the murders of Abbey and Livy. That's what their friends and family call them are still unsolved. Investigators say the man who did this maybe living among them in Delphi sitting next to them in church in line at the grocery store what what happened on the bridge in those woods that day as he'd done it before will he do it. Again is a lot of evidence a lot of tips. Why isn't this solved? Police swear their one tip away from doing just that. Who has it and will they ever come forward over? The course of the next eight chapters were going into explore those questions with the people living. Let's get started. Police are also examining this snapchat. APD Chat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared the announcement that the girls have been found not to a good end. We are investigating a in crime scene. We suspect foul play. Law Enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. TWO WE HAVE A. We have a still photograph. We have sound they. We don't have this person's it could be a half the white males and Carroll County to killer who may be in this room we likely interview. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. One day you will. This is down the hill. The Delphi murderers home. I'm Girardin here at C. N. N. Center in Atlanta Georgia. And I'm one of the hosts of this podcast alongside Barbara McDonald the other host and I'm Dan Autobahn producing the show and before we get started there are thousands and thousands of murders that go unsolved. What is it about this one? Why are we telling this story? I think that the answer is easy for me. It's the imagery and I've I've worked since two thousand five hundreds of crime stories his and sometimes some just pop others. Just go along the rest of the way this one for me the imagery. I don't remember a case having that and that that's it's really what jumped out at me and I remember those early days and a lot of people were kind of captured by this story when it happened and I think for me what it was is the fact that this happened and on a Monday afternoon in broad daylight and parents always tell their kids go in numbers go together. You're safer that way. These two girls together and none of that matters. I'm coming into the story later later. Then both of you you you were there for for the beginning and when I first heard about this and I started hearing the details details. Wow how how is this possible when I say that I mean there's so many things about this case that don't make sense the biggest of which is why isn't this off the surface you look at what's been put out there by authorities the information available and that includes a picture of the killer a video. The killer audio you of the killers voice. We don't wear this crime happened. We don't win. This crime happened but somehow this has been solved. It's like a giant ink blot and the more you look at it the more you learn about it you see different things. It changes your perspective and five people can look at this this evidence and see dozens of different scenarios. It can be literally it can be whatever you want it to and you know when you look at the photos in if if someone will say oh I see X.. Since yeah sure but I also see why and so. There's no definitive answers to any of these possibilities disabilities one thing we do know. Is that all mysteries. Have Solutions and we're not trying to solve this case. We are trying to make sense of it and we're going to take you there to Delphi over over the course of the next eight chapters and we're going to introduce you to the people who lived this and some of them have never told their story before you're going to hear people who never were asked asked to tell their story and others were far too traumatized until now to be able to talk about it. I think a lot of times in cases like this. There's a lot of focus on the family as there should should be in. There is one of the things that's interesting I think about how we're GONNA unfold. This story is that there's a ripple effect that occurs when something like this happens happens and especially in a community like Delphi. You've got the you know school kids who are trying to wrestle with the fact that there's an empty desk in their class there are teachers who are trying to figure out how. How do I talk to the class? About what just happened. Because they're not prepared so we're going to actually get out into that. Community talked to some of those people in. It's really interesting to hear the how this is affected them in the ripple effect that that's all had on them and we're going to walk some of those key locations as well all in the service of really trying to answer two questions. What the hell happened out there? Can this be solved Leland understand. You won't understand. We want these pieces to make sense and as you come along with us and see those shapes keeps in how they may or may not fit together. You'RE GONNA have your own opinions too and they may change will change. But I you have to know what happened Part one take a jacket. I was at home and I had had posted that they were at the High Bridge and actually told my dad. I was just telling him about how I wanted to go there and I thought it was so beautiful because it is. It's stunning there. And you're just having a conversation about them. Being there February thirteenth thirteenth. Two thousand seventeen was on Monday a warm Monday in fact the kind of winter warm when kids don't wear jackets and parents demand they take them just in case it was the start of the week schools in Delphi would normally have been in session that day but on this day they weren't so abby and Libya had a sleepover. Our story begins Monday morning. With Libya's older sister Kelsey. It was a snow makeup day that day. So that means saw there. Hadn't you've been a lot of snow and we had an extra day that we got off of school so they just made it a long weekend for us so I didn't go into work until like nine or ten in the morning Kerry Tim Libyan Chelsea's mom and just to clear up any confusion. She lives two hundred sixty two miles away in Kentucky. She's he's a tough woman with a tattoo sleeve on her left arm in tribute to her daughter Libby and every morning I'd send Chelsea and libby to good morning have a good day. You know snap chat text message. Something I'm GonNa had done that that morning but the girls on the bus went about my normal getting ready for work and left and libby message to be back snapchat and she was in her bed and I was like doing in bed. It's like nine o'clock or whatever that morning I woke up late and planned to go to my boyfriend's house and help him clean out his truck that they were getting ready to sell and then after we cleaned it out he was going to go to work and I was GonNa win at his house and then go to help go to work myself dating. Get up until probably close to ten or so and they wanted pancakes. This is becky patty before we get too far. We should acknowledge the family. Only dynamics are complicated here. Becky and her husband. Mike are Kelsey and Libya's grandparents and also their legal guardians and you'll hear are a lot from them over the course of this story but Kelsey and Libya's dead Derek also lives with them so derek made them pancakes for breakfast and then later on libby come out she was bored. What can we do? You know Kelsey came out and said that she. She was going to a friend's house and then she had to work. And so I went upstairs and it got started getting ready in our bathroom and I. I'd very much remember her. Opening the door. Really wide with abby behind her as I'm getting dressed and she's like Hake House doing go to hybrids today day and I'm like obviously getting ready to leave. I can't take a day and a little later. I was like I have really been saying. No Oh to her a lot lately so I went downstairs I said hey if you can find a ride and guns says yes I will take you and she ended up asking grandma and grandma atmosphere yes and then she called my dad to pick her up. And that's when I agreed to take her and then she said that her dad would pick her up so I said Okay and that's when they were getting ready to leave and libby was standing at the door. And that's when I told her to that. You need to take a jacket kids. It's Nice but you know who knows you need to take jacket. And that's when she looked at me and said it's okay. Great one gave me that smile and off. They went so when we left was sitting up front and the back neither of them had brought sweatshirts which was really confusing to me so I actually ran back inside and got abby on of mine and Libby had one in my accede since she always rode with me so I made them take those. And then we turned higgins by twenty one pilots up really loud and they had the windows down and we were seeing to it in. It's not a super far drive so we got there. The pretty quick it felt like and then we stopped at the entrance to high bridge and made sure they both have the sweatshirts. I told them to take approach and I loved her and I watched the mock way. ooh THE MON ON HIGH RAILROAD BRIDGE STRADDLES DEER CREEK CREEK. It's technically abandoned. Its Rickety and the gaps between the railroad ties are wide but you can still get there from the trails in the area and a lot of people do. It's all over. INSTAGRAM and snapchat. Chelsea and libby went out there lot. They were both into photography and and staff there. There's they've got all kinds of pictures of that. They used to go out there and take and do so. It wasn't uncommon and we knew that there had been some other kids out there because when she had asked Kelsey had talked to her friend and she'd been she was had was out there as a matter of fact. I thought when they went there Derek called remember. He's Kelsey and Libya's Dad. There's about three thirty he said I'm here at trail head and blow. He's not answering her phone. He said I found lots going on and that he was gonNA walk around and he said you call she answers for you so I started calling and texting and nothing happened so Tara Tara is lives and then so Tara I said hey you you know Utah so we were taking turns trying and texting and calling and and there was no answer or anything so by a little before four. I said we probably need to go look for and Taras Walk. Walk go on and I called Mike or can said Libby. They're out the trails and they're not answering Levy's not answering our phone. We're going to go and start looking for him and he said well. Let me finish up here and I'll I'll be there so I thought well there's two different ways if they decided to walk home and they could have come so we drove both different ways from there that they could have possibly walked and they weren't there so then we got we got to the trail head and parked. There was at that time. There were several cars there and I had the perfect cross the road and kind of the ditch and my phone started during but I wasn't paying attention to it. It was on the other side of the room charging and then it rang again so I was like okay. Something must be wrong so I went over and checked it. It was my grandma and she was freaking out she. She couldn't find libby anywhere and she wasn't answering or foam was really unlike Louis to do something like that. So I I think in my mind I was like. Oh she lost her her phone or she must have fell in on the other side of the bridge. Because I know that they probably cost it Because I know libby but I didn't think the Abbey we would have so. I was a little weird to me but I was. I was sure that there was a logical explanation and newest just some fluke that happened. Liberty's Mom Kerry at work back in Kentucky gets a call while Kelsey and I would talk back and forth with snapchat or Messenger or whatever. It was not normal for her to call me but I was at work. And we're not supposed to be on our phones. So I sent a voicemail and I immediately like hit a text are about to get off work. Call you in just a minute or something to that effect and she sent me a message immediately back that say call me right now. It's it's it's an it's an emergency it's important very important or something so I just without even thinking grabbed up my stuff and clocked out told him I was leaving. I still probably had five minutes is left. Whatever I didn't care I got out to the car and I called her back and she almost funny now she said actually? I think I laughed when she said it's me she said. Have you seen Livy now. I'm like two hundred and sixty fifty five miles away and I kind of know you haven't seen liberty. What are you talking about? And she said mom we can't find libby and and honestly I felt too many. I what do you mean finally Back in Delphi. While Williams is wrapping up a shift waiting tables. Her phone is ringing and ringing and ringing. Anna is Abbie's mom. She had her when she was nineteen and in many ways two of them grew up together and some of those calls are from Libya's grandmother Becky Patty because I'd seen missed calls and that was five five thirty. It was kind of early in the evening and she was like the girls are out on the walk and a whole jar. Bill things is going on. She's like but we're down to sheriff's department. I'm like okay. I'm on my way and checked out the couple of customers I had and I remember feeling a a slight bit like strange but not like overly panicked. I just told them the girls I was like adding libby. were out on a walk doc. Apparently they're missing. I gotta go down to the sheriff's department was like okay. Well let us know what's going on and just make sure everything's Okay and I'm like Yep no problem seal awhile well I'll be back tonight but I'll see what I can do. Abbey's grandmother Diane. Her skin was already having a rough day so I went to work and and when I before I left work on my coworker said you know you don't seem your solve today's everything okay and I said well you know no actually I lost my friend Jamie. Today and the kids called her aunt Janey she never had any children of her own so she kind of adopted our family and just just before I got home in a call and said he just want you to know the girls are missing and I knew what she said the girls. She's talking Abby and Libby because I knew abby condescending night live's family was scattered across Carroll County Kelsey at her boyfriend chases house and Becky on the way to the bridge with Libya. hyung-chol cody like nothing wrong. Nothing wrong. It's just grandma overreacting always then me. And Cody crossed the bridge. ENJ and we're looking in the woods and we couldn't find them anywhere that's when I started to realize something was really wrong. I was yelling her name so that she could hear me and I hope that she did hear US searching What we were? We were doing everything we could to see. If they were down in the areas we thought they would be Mike. Patty is Libya's grandfather and Becky's husband. He's a half an hour away at work in Lafayette. I didn't realize realize that the urgency of it you know it was like okay. Maybe he's not answering the phone or either it went dead or she's out running around with a bunch of kids leads. You know doing whatever but when I did wrap up became straight there and like I said I started walking on the trails as well And then I called the police and within literally within minutes by the time I called him and said Hey we've got a situation in here. We need some help. I got back on the trails and started walking up towards the Freedom Bridge. The Freedom Bridge is a completely separate bridge from the one at the center of this story. Story it straddles. The hoosier heartland highway and isn't far from where Abbie and libby were dropped off by the time I got to the Freedom Bridge. I ran into two officers that that was out there walking as well so they reacted you know just really quick and continued to walk on the trails and then ended up meeting back up at the police station at some point. Because I knew becky was there so we're back here. CNN Center in our production room and bar. I don't know about you but one of the things that's striking to me. When when you hear these family members talking about those first couple of hours is that there are varying levels of concern and I you know I said earlier to someone i? I can't help but think about my parents. If it were me there'd be two very different approaches. My Dad would be calm cool collected. My mother would be in a state of media in some of that is personality. I mean in this case we have Anna. Who isn't real concerned at this point? She's it's a little concerned but she thinks maybe they're lost. It'll all work out. Mike is kind of feeling the same way our item on my way but disarray probably resolve itself. And then you have Kelsey libby sister who is like no. There's something not right here. This is odd and one one of the things that jumps out to me about that. Is that usually the people that are younger and Kelsey has held at this point. Seventeen seventeen. They're usually the ones that are saying like no no no. It's fine mom freaking out. Everything's GonNa be fine so it was kinda striking that her I thought was. There's something not ready. And then you have these two grandmothers Diane a an already having a bad day having lost the family friend and Jamie just that morning to cancer and Becky who for what I understand she's kind of prone to freaking out she's completely freaking out at this point and so this is the backdrop and the precursor to as everybody kind of makes their way way into the woods that evening to start this frantic search. Hey everyone it's Dan simply safe home. Security is the highest level of security. You can have with. Police dispatch up to three hundred and fifty percent faster than a normal burglar alarm with simplisafe. You get comprehensive protection for your home outdoor cameras and doorbells alert you to anyone approaching your home and entry motion and glass break. Sensors guard the inside. If there's a break in they use real video evidence just to give police an eye witness accounts of the crime plus simply safe protects your home from fire water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning to and it's all monitored that are twenty four seven by live security professionals. You can set it up yourself no tolls needed or they can do it for you. It's only fifty cents per day with no uh-huh contracts you'll get free shipping and a sixty day risk-free trial you've got nothing to lose. Go now and be sure you go to simplisafe dot dot com slash d t h so that they know we sent you that simplisafe dot com slash d t h Partout Luby's afraid of the dark You're you're amazed. When he picked me up we went out to the trails? We were sitting there in the truck for a little bit. Can you could just see little lights everywhere. Everywhere there was it was just like the stars in the sky and I said look look at this. Look how many people out here looking. So here's where the Delphi phone tree is about to really take off and people are going to start notifying other people. Outside of the family family friends acquaintances. That something's wrong here and I'm glad you mentioned that phone tree because in a town Mike Delphi. Three thousand people. It does does not take long for phones to start lighting up because Brinda caused Lisa. Who calls you know Christine and before you know it? Everybody in town knows there's something wrong and Delphi's known for this volunteer spirit so you have a lot of people who are now interested people who don't even know these families who are now interested in wanting to come out and help in some way and I think that as these families have kind of moved into that area around the bridge at Becky. Mentions you know seeing all the volunteers volunteers. The more people that get involved in this thing can only ramp up the concern and the panic on the part of the families right because now they've got the whole town of all people posting on facebook two girls missing. It's all over twitter. It's all over instagram snapchat. And this is also where Libya's phone is gonNA come into apply and that's because we learn for the first time about some snapchat photos which we'll get into later but this is kind of the first time we hear about those Things start getting posted posted on social media and of course by the time is now dark and He will start coming out of the woodwork. Around town We we were looking flashlights. were lit up looking up and down alleys and streets and we went all around looking went back out to the trails and there's a night progressed back to the police station. Dropped becky off an intern. Kelsey we're going through. I think some of the social media stuff trying to look computers or ipads or ipods or anything. We had turned to look for information. When did you become come aware of the snapchat photos? It was that evening. I think he's the one that showed me because I didn't have snapchat because she had gone onto work then we had to call her back and so I think she saw it and she said well. I I do this so We had seen it while we were at the police station. It was that night. What did you think of those two images? The image of the Bridge Image of Abbey on the bridge which at the time the only one I saw was the one of Abbey on the bridge so I I didn't I I mean I saw it so we knew that they were at least on the bridge. And you know over so I don't remember what I thought I just. I just know that okay. They were there we we you know. We need to to be searching from there because we know at least they were that far then when you call police how did you see that a nine one one call. No I called the sheriff's department directly to it is right around five o'clock that evening one of my detectives semi attacks and said. Hey Sheriff we have. I have two girls missing that. Are you know partner that live in the county and they were last seen to southside Adelphi near the High Bridge to- blessing be. Where's the sheriff's badge in Carroll County? He's got a shaved head and a powerful moustache. I honestly was not overly concerned and in the beginning because for a number of years anytime we've had a report obey runaway or even a missing senior citizen I I would venture a guess percentage wise. We've probably found are located those runaways or seniors I'd say at least ninety to ninety five percent at the time and so that initial thought enter my mind okay. Well we'll find him you know we'll find him and everything will be fine. The DELPHI fire department is all volunteers. Headed by Chief Daryl starret. He's a rugged man with a strong handshake and in February of twenty seventeen they were raising money for a brand new firehouse chief stare. It was in a meeting about that when his phone lit up. A text. Message From my deputy chief and said that dad two missing girls and they're wanting to know we could help search the area so I've deployed people in trucks to different areas. We didn't know where look in initial they were just missing so kind of deployed Loyd people to different areas looking for the girls driving up and down the streets checking maybe friends houses Just put more boots on the ground and doing good in once. The guys got out of the station. I was called to the sheriff's office and we'd set up a joint incident command Delphi. I Mayor Shane Evans was twenty seven years old in two thousand seventeen. He's one of America's youngest mayors and when the search escalated. He was two towns over at a city council meeting. I drove the twenty five to thirty minutes up to Delphi. I can't remember. I talked to the fire department and I went to the jail. Dispatch edged county unit. Some of the city units At one point I went out there when the fire department searching for the girls at that point got some Equipment available we have wastewater department has called four wheeler something bigger than a golf cart and smaller than a gator. So we we made that available to county and city Eunice working that night if anything came up. Here's Delphi fire. Chief Daryl Stare at again you know just point would start. started getting a sense of urgency. Now Mind you now pitch black. We focused on the creek. We focused on roadside. We've focused focused on everything we could with ball. We had trying to paint himself and the information we got was okay. The cell phone pinged off of this top. What does that mean well? It could be within a two mile radius of this hour and so I said okay. We need to search all of Delphi which which includes dirk the wabash two miles. How is a good ways? Sheriff Tobe lesson be of course is that particular day. It was unseasonably warm but as has it drew closer to evening you know began to feel a little cooler that good evening. Obviously and so being near a stream the deer creek the temperature of the water during that time period was obviously cold hold that rough terrain so to say very very rural part of even just right outside of the Senate say limits you know immediately it turned into very remote terrain area. Obviously there's there's hills and valleys and things like that out there in in that evening you know easily we could have had one hundred people searching and then as as you knock on the door and say well then they joined the search and so the entire town was searching in your own way. That's part of being in a small town. Everybody knows everybody. And if you don't know you I know of them and everybody wants to hell so we looked came. We looked and we walked. We were focused on the bridge area and we had people on four wheelers. We had farmers in the area. The community was look. We searched till maybe eleven thirty twelve. Oh clock and I had met up with the sheriff and discussed with him and chief mullins this look we. We've blanketed wanted. Neil this area I also feel like we could probably check it off and oil. Yeah I agree you know. And and that's the point you have to do that as the news of Abbey's disappearances spreading concerns are growing. We got the call from Abbie's mom and then I was texting Kelsey on and off all night. Eric Gibson is one of Abbey and Libya's closest friends and people confused her and Libby because they look so much alike she facetime them the night right before everybody was checking different trails on Delphi just to make sure so we came up here and we're back down. We even saw the firefighters back doc there and we talked to them for a while and then they called off the search and so we went home. But I'm glad we did because as I texted Kelsey right before and I'm like Hey I know you guys checked around the bridge but I know other people have to do you need those extra is kind of glad we didn't you know we were two two of Libya's best friends the other person with me was one of his best friends and I was happy and so I'm Kinda glad we didn't Cynthia. Rossi is another close friend of theirs and she didn't like where this was heading. I think when they started started mentioning the police bringing in dogs from Chicago. 'cause I know because from living there that a lot of bad things happen in there and they always have just certain system set up if something is to go wrong in. Its very professional city when it comes to crime and and dealing with crime in they have everything you could ever imagine when it comes to dealing with that sort of thing so when they said that they are bringing in dogs from Chicago as like. Oh they're going to other states they're contacting people all across the world to try to find them. That isn't a good sign. Yeah definitely worried And that night I knew because I went ahead and stayed with my other friend that night we were going to go to school together in the morning I was terrified and she wasn't so much a friendly face time to like was but like they were only terrified because if they're still out there they're cold they're cold. They're scared if one one of them's hurt and really we just thought they really were just lost and scared and as it approaches midnight a controversial decision is made and for people following the case. It's still being debated her good and bad on that comment before I guess I will say it was a joint decision in that. I consulted with many emergency response leaders in our community and so at some point I guess what I will the way I will oh put. It is the organized effort by emergency services was temporarily called off. Yes but it's there. Were still people I know out. Even though they were not this early under our leadership. I'll I'll put it that way just for people who you you wonder why you know what was sort of Calculus. The rationale behind that decision. There's our producer Dan who was in Delphi with us. The search that pointed obviously a had not been fruitful the other thing was limited at that time very limited resources and when I say basically additional lighting is one thing that came came to mind that we didn't have access to at least again at at those hours and so I I would as I recall. I think a lot of boiled down onto a male building of resources and being able to continue on we were at high bridge. We had walked high bridge and we had bought under hybrid. I I had guys climbed down to the top of the pillars of high bridge. I had guys doing things they should not have been doing. But we were going to find something we had scoured the banks of the creek. We the hillsides a you get to a point. You know that you've walked over two and three and four times in that area. You kind of feel like you have to put a check mark on it so we come to that point and it it like. I said it was a tough thing to do but as volunteer party. Also have to look out for the individuals that you command because they have jobs they have livelihood. That's the tough part of it. Because of the chief you have to be able to look out for them at some point and they will stay out Dr Until Sunup if you told them. That's what you're doing but at some point you have to be realistic. We have turned every rock. We could think of in this area mm-hmm and it's that time of year. You know the ground cover. It isn't now where you've got weeds. Four foot tall. You could see not a good ways even in the dark we have. Of course we have lights like no other so we came to that point that we need to check US bought off and then look at maybe coming back fresh in the morning. And let's see what happens. Abbie's Mom Anna is now starting to worry. Remember a one moment when Becky had said ladies afraid of the dark she would not choose to be out here if something was wrong and that kind of hit that you know. Something's up and just being who the girls were and their friends. They would've stayed together. That was is the concern after that. They weren't the kids that just didn't you know answer their phones and didn't respond or take off or anything like that so that was a rough off night and one of the things that were striking to me about. Our conversation with Anna is what she just said a short bit ago. which was that night? It's dark there. Searchers the flashlights. Everybody's looking and she remembers becky saying Libya's afraid of the dark and she wouldn't be out here by choice right right and it was. It was really striking because libby kind of became a little girl in that moment but libby was fourteen. She's still very young. I was afraid of the dark as the kit. So yeah that when Anna said that that really touched me and it it really made Libby feel very real to me in that moment to think about those girls. They're not out there by choice and everybody is coming to that realization and yet the controversial the decision is made to call off the official part of the search because this is an all volunteer fire crew and they have fulltime jobs if they're not making progress because they don't have the right equipment they don't have the lights they need. They don't have whatever they need in the moment they need to go home and sleep. And we've talked about this a lot. You know calling off the search doesn't necessarily mean everybody went home. I mean these guys are volunteer firemen. There's two missing kids gets in a small town. They're not just going to go home. And some of these people knew the families and so right you had some of them stain and then you had other people who showed up to help who who stayed so the decision to call the search. We've talked about it a lot like how that character like what that looked like. That may have been a situation where chief start was just like I can't pay the overtime and it was. It was a bunch of people who made the decision that it wasn't all on one person but yeah and there's still stuff going on things are still happening out there a bit. That also gave them a chance to sort of get ready for the next day Hey everyone it's Dan by now. You're probably getting a sense that we spent a lot of time in Delphi. Oh Fi and talk to a lot of people. The great thing about that is that we're able to tell a lot of the story in the voices of the people who lived at the bad part of that is that I have more than we can actually use. We have about thirty hours a tape that we need to get down into about eight hours this show but there's one thing that we didn't want one to lose in any of that and that's getting a sense of who Abbey and libby were and now and then we want to bring you moments that really bring that out in. Here's here's our first this one. This is from Anna Williams. Abbie's mom the girl behind that cat and freckles was actually pretty irritated to have to go to yet. Another wedding and baby shower our year because there was going to be another wedding baby shower because that seemed to be our family's routine but at the same time. She was kind and considerate. Considerate and loving a hand was amazing. I was very blessed to be her mom. Her headstone has a quote on the back that says though she little she is fierce and she was assist she might not have been forward but man when she decided on something she kinda did digging a little bit about things and from her the youngest moments she really did not have a lot of fear about heights or anything she when she may remind to do something she really did go. Oh for it She was a good friend. She was best friend who a lot of people and I have a lot of stories of folks have come to me saying the abbey stuck stuck up for them when nobody else would girl had a good character tour she would big things the next chapter. We'll get to know Libya little bit part part three thirty seconds later the night before we thought they'll show up their friend's house. They didn't call in who knows the next day is a little bit different so it's been absolutely sleepless night for these families. Some of them went home to try. Try to get a few hours of sleep other state out at the scene to continue searching but nobody got any rest at night. No and you know. We've we've seen enough missing children's stories and you always hear parents talk about when the sun goes down and going to sleep not knowing where your children are and how horrible that is and so at this point in this story. You've got a number of people who are all feeling that way absolute and then you know when you look at the time line in this case the search picks up again the next morning morning but I remember looking at the time to talk to you about it and saying why did they start at ten. Am that's a little bit late. Absolutely and they didn't have much of a choice. There was fog in the area they had requested. QUESTED A helicopter from Indiana state police. It couldn't even take off because of the weather conditions so the official search delayed. But still there's people out there looking looking for these girls during that time and that's when the fire chief gets a really important phone call from the police chief Dirty and and I think it was six o'clock five thirty. I don't know things were kind of fuzzy my phone and it was chief moans loans and he said chief we have about three hundred volunteers coming to help search and we're using your fire station as a command post. I came back in started today. I had a couple people from my work. Come in to do nothing but registered Bolan tears. I know three hundred and the people that free lance and don't check in so we had the people and people and people mm-hmm from tippecanoe county offered up Mobile Operation Center. We brought it in and said it out at the bridge area so that we could more readily coordinate people matt area and we covered everything that we had covered the night before both covered it in a daylight and cover too many people. Here's Kelsey again libby sister. The next morning learning we all got up me and my mama got up and left about seven thirty ish in everybody met at the fire station and the fire fire department separated us into groups and my family actually all got separated so my GonNa tear were in one group and I was in a group with my dad and my other sister Anne few other people and my group got sent to high bridge. Todd glad is the pastor at Delphi United United Methodist Church and Mike in Becky Patty or part of his congregation. He'd seen libby just days before I contacted the sheriff who attends church and just said where do you want me. He asked me to come out of the command center so my role command center was basically to talk with people as they came in as they volunteered. I signed in volunteers. Volunteers course mortgage spe- connecting listening talking to first responders looking at maps wondering even spent about an hour with another clergy friend who went in search section of the creek in behind some houses just going over areas had been checked but wanted to check once again. Many many people were wanting to come out even from communities nearby the Logan Support the Frankfurt the Monticello as well but of course. You saw a lot of people that you know because you know many people in this community. So is your mood on Tuesday morning different than it was Monday. Night when you're out at the scene mood Tuesday morning Something's not right Master Todd's concerns are growing and the search is reaching its peak so we had helicopters up. They were searching Creek. We had kayakers on the creek because some those areas. You're not gonNA see except up for from the war is so the train is is rough when you off of the trail system. It's Willard's for this area area cornfield. It's a creek bed so even on foot in the daytime it would was tough to search. The search continues continued to turn up nothing. Share of Toby. Who's a veteran cop? Felt this thing. Shifting obviously is time continued to go along they again had that thought in my mind about okay this is a like majority of what we end up with in this counting being able to find individuals individuals. Be Out some point. I thought this yeah. I'm not real sure about this. One Kelsey was in a search party at the bridge. When the first sign of the girls was found a quarter mile away? We heard somebody yell up the hill the they found a shoe and at the moment I knew exactly what they were wearing i. I couldn't remember what the sweat shirt was my sister's wearing until later but I knew exactly what shoes they were wearing. And so they held up that there was a black doc nike and I knew it was levies and then About thirty seconds later somebody else said that they found them. I'll never forget this part. Unfortunately Chief Steve Mullen and and I and I believe the Delphi. Mayor Mayor Shade Allen's Fire Chief Starts we were Kinda in the back part of the the fire department and remember. I believe it was chief. MAHLON GOTTA call said we've we've located them And they're you know they're no longer with us. It was the end. No one wanted. The bodies of being libby are found in a culvert a quarter mile from the bridge and now a search is becoming an investigation because of the number of people we wanted to get authorities to the site before we put out Anne blanket notes so so we were kind of played coy to protect the people to protect the scene to protect a family so we kind of went downstairs and played Coy and we were waiting to give notice. We wanted to family to not find find out from anyone but authorities. Of course you started getting people we heard this. We heard that you've heard more than and sometimes you have to lie people to protect themselves. I'm sorry wrong law. You've heard more than we know. And and at some point I believe it was DIV Molins came down and said well we have seen secured. Let's go ahead and let people know so we can terminate. Let's get people out of here. How made the announcement that the girls have been found and it was not to a good end and thanked? Everybody was there tried to be that guy that when all else is troubling around around somebody has to keep it together and as by making the announcement of the entire lot was full of people. There's a stream of state trooper cars going by the and it's just surreal. Knew they were going to nine what they were confusing. And what. Those state troopers were facing was a scene so disturbing. It would stay with them forever. It was something different. Something new new the horror of which which shatter lives on Delphi and grabbed the attention of the world. It down the hill is written and produced by Barbie McDonald Dan Cemetery which in Me Andrew I. I didn't with original music and scoring shoe Sir and production support from Michael Dudley entailing chassis or associate producers. If you WANNA see the people places and things we've been talking about visit our website at down the hill podcast dot COM Sherry Selby's h ellen senior production manager. Brian Bell is senior director of programming and Tyler Moody is the Vice President of Warner Media podcast network and especial thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime and of course most important of all a big. Thank you to you. We appreciate you listening

Kelsey libby Delphi Libya becky patty High Bridge Mike Delphi Abbie Mom Anna Abbey Dan Autobahn Abbey Abigail Williams Indiana INSTAGRAM Delphi Indiana Carroll County Abby Kerry Tim Libyan Chelsea Derek Indianapolis
Unsolved Indiana

True Crime: By The Book

17:32 min | 1 year ago

Unsolved Indiana

"Please be aware that true crime by the book may discuss topics sure opinions and use light which they could be disturbing or offensive to some listeners. Listener discretion is advised tidings in salutation mutation bibliography agents. Welcome back to true crime by the book where each week on Tuesday. We'll explore a case based on a book movie or other media conspired by a true crime. I'm your host Tosh appears and if you enjoy the show please review on your platform of choice and subscribe describe. Today we will briefly discuss a missing persons case and an unsolved homicide case from my home state never fear we will be returning to the book bag next week with evidence of love by John. Bloom and Jim Atkinson so join me back here next week. Tuesday for our return to books. I like to occasionally cover cases. They need exposure and also cases. This is from my home state. It can be tough sometimes to find books about these crimes and even sometimes enough details to just round out an episode so we can keep our eyes and our ears open for updates if and when they become available and also keep the victim's names alive inactive by generating tips for law enforcement. It is is specially difficult in some of the colder cases from Indiana because a lot of them are victims of color in a lot of times. Victims of color are not getting the same media exposure as our white counterparts parts. And you would think it would be different especially from the area that I live in because it's a more a majority black area. Uh I guess it's probably eighty five percent. African American population and the police force is comprised of mainly the people of color. So you would think that these people would not allow these stories to fall by the wayside but that is not the case. Yes And I will be sharing one such case with you today. In September I see at solving crimes is not my goal this podcast in for now I stand stand by that so today's story again. I just want to raise awareness about a missing persons case from my home state when when I say I'm from Indiana in true crime circles. I almost immediately get asked about the Delphi. Murders in the event that you're unfamiliar with the case Out Give you the cliffs note version. A courtesy of wikipedia Abigail Williams was thirteen years old and liberty. German was fourteen fourteen years old and they were taken a hike on February fourteenth twenty. Seventeen this was in Delphi Indiana. The young ladies failed to meet their family at the end of the trail like expected. So they're worried. Parents and loved ones contacted authorities who searched Adelphi historic trails. They uncovered at that time. No signs of foul play during near initial search tragically. The remains of both abby and libby were discovered by noon the next day. These babies were some resourceful children libby before whatever transpired that took her life managed to capture the voice an image of a person of interest with her cell phone so for two years. Now these photos and composites have been circulated in hopes of solving these crimes in the families of both young ladies. are advocating on their behalf in there are some absolutely fantastic podcast that have covered this case in depth and my thoughts alter with the families as they continue to search for justice that is arguably one of the most well known unsolved murder cases in Indiana China. Now before we go on and I tell you about the missing persons case from the Gary Chicago area. Let's take a quick break for word from this week sponsor. I know for certain that there are a number of podcasters in aspiring broadcasters in my audience so my little tip for you this New Year here is look into pod corn. I'd like to thank pod corn for sponsoring this week's episode and as I shared here last week I was wondering how I could continue to afford the costs associated with keeping my show afloat in this New Year then I found Podkoren. Popcorn is a marketplace connecting podcasters to amazing sponsorship opportunities. And you totally bypass the middleman. They don't want you to give up rights here podcast. They just want to match you with products and services to grow your brand. Their mission is to give podcasters castors transparency creative freedom and full control over. How and when they monetize so click the link and my show notes to sign up to popcorn and browse through sponsors and this is a wonderful tool and a must for every pot caster check in the pod corn today? Thank you Popcorn Rochelle. Thomas Miss Double Field was a student athlete at Calcium at College of Saint Joseph in Northwest Indiana. She attended that college on a scholarship scholarship for track and she was also known as a fun. Happy outgoing young woman. She participated in lots of activities at the school including the Black Student Union and she made friends easily and these friends are impacted by her disappearance. Even now over four years later it was twenty fifteen. When Rochelle went missing? She was eight months pregnant. And do I have have to tell you. The statistics concerning pregnant homicide victims twenty percent of pregnancy associated death is homicide in of those homicides intimate partner violence is high on the list. I'm not pointing any fingers. That is just a statistic cystic a truth and here. We have a African American woman. Eight months pregnant went missing around Thanksgiving living and when she was last seen she was saying that she was going to Gary Indiana to visit her child's father. The problem is that Rochelle who was just weeks away from her. Twenty first birthday is still missing. Her remains have never turned up. There are no arrests is like her case has simply been forgotten. She went missing said a few days before Thanksgiving of Twenty Twenty fifteen. The last update I could find locally is from two thousand sixteen. So I'm saying locally. We have to do better than that when we have a young woman turn up missing in a neighboring city and she was said to be on her way to Gary Indiana we we have to be better than one update in five years. I hope I'm just stymied stymied by my own ignorance because this is the perfect time of year to pull out. Pull at the heartstrings. The person responsible for her disappearance needs needs to at least be shaking in his or her boots at this time of year every year. The young lady's birthday was Christmas Day. She was due to to have her baby between Thanksgiving and Christmas. You would think that this would have been bigger news. And I'm not saying that. There are not a lot the projects and a lot of organizations that are keeping Rochelle story alive but really ish should be a common. It should be right up there with Lacey Peterson. It should be right up there with abby and libby my goal and my hope is that all of these crimes get solved but we you need advocates for some of these lesser known crimes no. I'm not an armchair detective and I'm not going to sit here and shift through evidence and do a job that I'm not qualified to do when there are perfectly qualified people who needs to be reminded that this case is very important. You're a dirtbag who may have committed a crime similar to these. That I've talked talked about today. Please note that the net is tightening. There are people out here who won't quit. There are people who will bring a lot of noise voice in two thousand twenty there. Are People tiptoeing all through your tulips right now. DNA is real somebody somewhere somewhere is submitting a DNA sample. That will lead directly to you so if you want to bypass all of these middle middle people turn yourself in. If that doesn't happen listeners. Public we need to stay on top of of law enforcement and encourage in able give them what they need to solve these crimes. Somebody somebody out there knows something. Abby Libby did their due diligence in recording the the person who could possibly potentially be their their murderer. It is up to US said to find him. Ali photos on my still under construction website Outlive numbers for tips. In either case in the show notes and you can find the Delphi case in everything about it at Abbey in Libya Dot Org. Both girls have amazing. Amazing sisters who are out here. Every day sounding the alarm for their now deceased sisters. So let's do what we can as a community to bring them justice also with Rochelle. Thomas Stubblefield again she. She would've been twenty five years old right now but the police in one of the updates that I did find for this case are suspecting of course first foul play because nobody goes missing for five years days before giving birth in quite honestly i. I don't know who the suspects are. I I do believe there is a suspect but there is not enough evidence to make an arrest in. If you know something in Rochelle Thomas Stubblefield case. Please please please contact local law enforcement Smith again. Those numbers are going to be in the show notes family Fran's advocates for Rochelle. Thomas Stubblefield if you want to update me with new Info there needs to be publicly disseminated. Contact me at. TC BY TB at gmail.com people of Color missing persons or homicide cold cases. Send me stories that need attention our raise awareness. But I cannot impede impede in any investigations People of Color True Crime Authors. How let me where we at? I would like to feature some books especially during the month of February that are written by people of Color. Can we do that. Can we make that happen capping all right outside of that. I will tell you a few things that will be changing with the podcast. I'm pretty sure that if you've been listening to me and I thank thank you if you have. If even listening to me from the beginning things are going to change. I'm trying to find my footing. I'm trying to figure out what works and and I'll say this I'm willing to leave the door open for documentaries. I'm going to leave the door open for unsolved cases that I congest shine a light on that needs some attention. That don't require me to be detective. I wouldn't mind shining A light on those types of cases of at least maybe once a month I'm going to be working diligently on getting content up for anyone who decides that they would like to Become a patriot. Fan Donor so if you like to become a Patriot John Subscriber you can do that at Patriotair Dot com slash T. C. B. Y.. T. B. also my email address for anything else is T. C. B. Y. T. V. at g mail dot Com you can find me at. TC B. Y.. T. V. on all the things even though. I think I'm going to be streamlining that very soon here in the future. If you have any suggestions on how to make the show better please. He's fill free to share them with me because this show was hours in. I kinda WanNa make it where I enjoy doing it and you enjoy listening. Okay so give me some direction on what it is that you all would like especially if you are a longtime listener because again this is episode. Eleven even of true crime by the Book and episode eleven is also the end of season. One I'm going to give it a break we're gonNA come back in. We're going to do evidence of love in a brand new season for twenty twenty comments questions. The feedback you can do all of that at the website. TC BY TB DOT COM or any of the other platforms. That I that I I shared with you please. If you have any information in the Abbey in Libby case the new Dell five murders or the the Rochelle Thomas Stubblefield case. Please forward that information on to law enforcement and let's see if we can help bring these perpetrators to justice again. I liked to lend a special thanks to park corn for sponsoring today's episode sold. And I've got a whole bunch of nothing else very short episode today. Because I didn't have abby libby has been done so wail by so many podcasts. Coming straight off the top of my head I can think of True crime garage they put two episodes and then they did a follow up. So it's it's probably four or five episodes just on this case they go a little bit further into naming suspects and that sort of thing. I don't want want to tread in in in that territory just yet. The case has been covered exceptionally will by far better podcasters than I and I just wanted to connect with Indiana the Anna with that story because somebody knows something also wanted to connect with my region the northwest North West Indiana Hammond Chicago. Each Chicago Kerry. If you all are aware of any any type of lead for the Rochelle Thomas Stubblefield case please Yuka forward. Delete me and Al Four to law enforcement forcement or you can look dead in in the show notes and you will be able to find ways to contact them. I thank you very much for your time. Today may have a very very very happy new year hell of a way to start it off with all of that being said. Thank you very much for listening today and I will catch you later bookworm.

Abby Libby Indiana Rochelle Rochelle Thomas Stubblefield Thomas Stubblefield Rochelle John Subscriber Delphi Abbey Delphi Indiana Tosh Gary Indiana Twenty Twenty Abigail Williams Gary Indiana
Scene of the Crime Trailer: Delphi Murder Case

Death by Misadventure: True Paranormal Mystery

06:16 min | 1 year ago

Scene of the Crime Trailer: Delphi Murder Case

"Hi this is Jaycee Nova with death by misadventure. There's an important Horton new true crime. PODCAST that I'm trying to raise awareness about it's called scene of the crime and this season features the unsolved case of the Delphi. Murders a brand new collaboration between abject entertainment and high studios scene of the crime is cutting edge narrative style true crime podcast the a closely examines one case per season and enlists experts and people connected to the case to help tell the story join. The hosts each Thursday as they dive of deep into the mystery of what happened on that dreadful Valentine's Day you're about to hear a clip of scene of the Crime Delphi while you're listening. Be Sure to subscribe to the show on the Himalayas APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you're listening in scene of the crime season one Delphi. We explore the February two thousand seventeen murders of Abigail Williams and liberty German in Delphi Indiana. It could have been any one of our kids could have been anyone at the bridge that day across rigid. Understand right. Yeah like a scary scary ties Rod. It scares me so for somebody to be able to cross it. He's moving well enough that he has to know the I remember when I was down there. They were surfing out like how everybody was going to surge and they kind of put everybody in screw they look for anything. That was suspicious or that. We thought like maybe something in that. We weren't supposed to touch anything that we were just supposed to allow that. I knew something really bad happened. My biggest fear is that whoever did this with do it again. I don't want that to happen to another family. Because I'm telling you guys hell. Those girls loved each other good friends neither one of them left each other side. Both those girls are heroes. It's hard for me to believe anybody could do something so so bizarre and horrible and not feel compelled to tell somebody about it. You'll hear from Abbey End Libya's families who share things from their perspective or worked out. I knew I knew this was not good. I had a feeling that it wasn't good. I wanted to be hopeful but I think when they said the word body a Russian to me and it told me they're not here anymore. I think that he told me. Libya's pray that the Dr was when I really got to serve that something was in Brighton. Understanding our lives have turned three hundred sixty degrees in another hundred and eighty you know what I mean. It's hard to explain. We all got shocked into the regular world's reality in the beginning you had people acting like we took them out in the middle of nowhere. Drop them off on a trail fix but the trails are what kids did. My biggest fear was that I was going to recognize that Roy and it would be somebody we knew we watch the people around to because we know that he's there somewhere so it also causes us to trust people. Detectives were like this. It's not going to take that long into small towns. Somebody's GonNa say something wrong. If it's all going to be over soon people leave their doors. Unlocked leave the keys in the car. Our garage doors open at night. I mean that's just the way it was. Unfortunately this changed all that Derek takes a day by day maybe reclose through a lot of like they had their own. I'm little Bond Jerry struggle. He was working for them when the cure was probably bear. That is devastated and thinking. I couldn't save. You'll also hear from experts trying to help us understand the case Paul holes the renowned former detective and DNA expert whose work doc helped bring the alleged golden state killer Joseph di Angelo to justice shortly after solving the Golden State killer case. I did speak with with an investigator that was involved with the Delphi. Murders Colleen Fitzpatrick the renowned forensic genealogists and one of the founders of the DNA doe project. They like you and me shake hand out somewhere to store and they haven't seen you shake hands Cuba us and you know we talk a minute and go away and then I go. I go into a house been shown that because we shook man when I touch the doorknob your team. They might be on the DOORKNOB. Dr Catherine Katherine M Brown an expert in child abductions and murders healthy betcha. Murderers into the themselves are incredibly rare. But the abduction of two children at one time hind even rarer. I've only seen a couple in my entire careers. Then Carroll County Prosecutor Robert Is there is a lot of crime scene evidence Some of it is somewhat odd. The crime scene was physically strange. There was no logical reason. Anybody would have known those girls were the other that day you'll also hear from. The people tasked with trying to identify the killer. Why Libby why abby why Delphi I say that because this is classic example of a clear example that evil lives amongst us? We are investigating this as as a trying seen. We suspect foul play life. He has done this before personally. No Conscience sociopath. We do have some new information for you. Today it's in the form of of a audio file from the cell phone that Liberty German had with her at the time in those two young girls. Were everybody's daughter. I refuse to accept evil as a standard bearer in American society. I I believe we're one piece of the puzzle. Wave figuring out who this individual is to the killer who maybe in this room. Do you want to know what we know. One day you will scene of the crime season one episode one will debut on January second two thousand twenty. Be Sure to subscribe to scene of the crime wherever you listen into podcasts. So you don't miss an episode.

Delphi Delphi Indiana Himalayas Abigail Williams Jaycee Nova Horton Abbey End Libya Liberty German Libya Dr Catherine Katherine M Brown Colleen Fitzpatrick American society Roy Derek Jerry Cuba Joseph di Angelo investigator Brighton Paul
151: The Delphi Murders

Ghost Town

21:26 min | 4 months ago

151: The Delphi Murders

"Hey guys my name is killin. Welcome to my coffee. Talk if you're ever in need of a good life chat over warm beverage. Then i'm about to be your gal. You can basically think of me as your online cafe buddy that anytime you need a boost of inspiration a good cry or a pep talk. You can always find me here sitting and brewing up all of the words that you wish to hear here on the coffee talk podcast. We have four. Different styles of coffee brews from coffee to espresso decaf and cosmic coffee. Bruce talk about life experience in the real world. Espressos are all about inspiration and learning how to adult dicaprio's our health and wellness plus all things environmental and cosmic bruise are fun brew where we talk about spiritual and supernatural things some of my favorite conversations that i've ever had in life have happened over warm or cozy beverages the topics and the times where you just get mad real mad honest and super vulnerable about the things in life that sometimes we don't get to talk about with other people those are the kinds of conversations that you're going to hear hear whether there with me or with other people that i bring onto the podcast so grab a cup of whatever you like an let's get on a murder down the hill. I'm jason horton. I'm rebecca leave. And this is ghost town. A credential new lead in the unsolved murders of thirteen year old abby williams and fourteen year old libby german. Those two eighth grade girls last seen snap chatting on a hiking trail in delphi indiana in two thousand seventeen but despite this video and audio of the suspect taken from libby cellphone just four years ago to teenage girls. Were murdered in delphi indiana. The case is horrifying but the evidence collected by one of the very brave young victims. Makes it really intriguing. Frustrating and also. Perhaps solvable today. I'm going to be talking about the murder of abby williams and libby german also known as the delphi murderers thirteen year old abigail j abby williams and fourteen year old. Liberty rose lynn libby. German were best friends and pretty typical like good kid type teenagers. They both loved sports their friends their family. Libya was part of the swim team. Wasn't tent on helping people. She wanted to go to college. Get married and studied to be a physician. Abby on the other hand wasn't sure what she wanted preferred exploring and wandering around delphi again just being like a normal young teenager. Late middle schooler. It was one thirty five pm on monday february thirteenth twenty seventeen that libyan abbey were dropped off by luby's older sister kelsey on country road three hundred north. The girls didn't have school that day and it was really nice afternoon again in indiana. That doesn't happen very often. So they decided to take a hike on the historic deer creek trails. East of delphi at two o. Seven pm libby. Posted a photo of abbey walking on the moon high bridge over deer creek was the last anyone would hear from either of them and the photo itself to you can find it online. It's really sweet and it's just it's so innocent. It's like two girls exploring the woods. Which is something. I did as a child. I'm sure a lot of people did to around noon about half a mile from the high bridge where libya had photographed abby afternoon before. They reported missing at five thirty pm that day after they didn't show up to meet libya's grandfather mike at three fifteen pm as planned. The families initially just went to the trails and searched. Then they call the police. The search for the missing girls formerly started then with local authorities that night the search was called off because of darkness but it resumed at daybreak on february fourteenth. Two thousand seventeen with hundreds of community volunteers including libyan abbey's classmates and friends. Joining police and firefighters in the search around noon about half a mile from the high bridge or libby had photographed abby the afternoon before one of the searchers found libyan abbey's bodies found according to law enforcement officers where they were killed of course the community especially the middle school students. Were incredibly upset. Really broken this was. I want to state. This delphi was a small town. This didn't happen there. People knew each other very well and everyone trusted each other. It was one of those towns. The middle school hired grief counselors security. The delphi church held a vigil that night. And i i may have said delfi earlier. I believe it's delphi. I'm gonna go with that nine days. After the discovery of the murdered girls police revealed a still of the video and also audio that libby again really heroically captured on her mobile phone which was found on her body. Police believed libby recognized that they were in danger when a man approached them and turned on her phones video camera. The angle of the video indicates that she had her phone down low possibly next to a pocket in her clothing while the police have not exactly said what happened next. It is believed to be then concealed. The phone in her pocket with the video camera still on the man depicted in the video is caucasian male. His hands in his pockets walking on the real bridge head down toward the girls. He seems like an older guy. Kind of guy that you think is would walk through the woods. A loner again. It's hard to really say from the still. It was initially released. He looked threatening. He specially to to you know young teenage girls a few days later. The person in the photograph was named the prime suspect in the double homicide and nicknamed bridge guy or bg for short and especially to the vibrant reddit community. Who is actively discussing this. Case on february twenty-second police released audio from louise phone hoping to get more leads from the community. It is garbled but here. A deep male voice saying down the hill maybe indicating. He forced them to walk under the bridge. Police indicated the additional evidence from the phone had been secured but that they didn't release it so when compromise any future trial by this time the reward in the case was set at forty one thousand dollars the day after two thousand more. Tips came into the indiana state. Police based on the audio alone. The fbi got involved at this point because so many tips kept coming in. They couldn't manage to do it alone on thursday. March ninth surgeon. John parine from the indiana state police said based on donations and fundraisers the reward had surpassed two hundred twenty four thousand dollars and the police received more than eleven thousand tips on friday march seventeenth indiana state police the fbi. And the carroll county sheriff's deputies a search warrant to the home and property of ron logan who owned the area where the bodies of abbey were found in february unfortunately they did not find anything any information and the search continued. But let's take a little break. Hi hello how are you hello. Hello shaking in. We are thank you for listening. We want to say hello to anyone. Who's listening patrons and of course our government The mayor's little ben forsyth. Hello a little joshua lambert. Hi ashley madison. Hello and our beloved Beloved governor ten out of ten. I definitely give ten at a ten. Must govern must cover it. If you need it she will provide it. Avian noble say. Thank you to our government. Anyone who's listening in his a patron and you can get bonus episodes early access. No ads chitchat like this patriot. Dot com slash ghost town. Pod got new bonus episode out new video out on youtube dot com slash jason. Horton's a link in the description. And i know it's going to break a couple of hearts but no apple podcast reviews. This week will bring it back next week. If you haven't yet please give it a great review and we will read it on here and if we haven't read your as yet sometimes the way it just doesn't come through immediately so it it's not real time so might have to wait for apple podcast to digest it and it back out at us. Yeah when the time comes you will know. Just keep listening and without further ado. We'll get back to i. Guess let's go back to delphi. Indiana on monday july seventeenth. The police released a composite sketch two months later. A man named daniel nations is in colorado for having an expired indiana license plate and police say he could be the person in the sketch she could be linked to the delphine murders. People get excited about this. You know in a way where we can give some closure to this case. Police later confirmed that he was living in indiana and homeless at the time of the murders. So he goes back to indiana on february fourth twenty eighteen because nations failed to register as a sex offender but in early february two thousand eighteen authorities said that nations was no longer considered an active person of interest in the delphi murders. The composite sketch again more tips came in at that point too. I guess they kind of look alike but this composite sketch kind of like the still could be many white guys out in indiana. It's hard to doesn't really give you a ton to work with and again a hence all of the tips on monday. April nineteenth twenty nineteen indiana state. Police announced a new direction in the case and also new materials. The first new material is a short video recording of the blue. Jean jacket had suspect walking along the rail bridge for a little over a second. The police know that because of the deteriorated condition of the bridge. The suspect might not be walking naturally due to the space between ties of course postulations to that. The person could walk fine on a bridge and he may have had a handicap or walked with a. You know an non normal gait just trying to give maybe more leads as to who bridge guy is or giving him some more distinction than we could. So what else do we get a new composite sketches released. The sketch looks very different from the first composite. Sketch in a lot of ways if you compare them. The sketch looks a lot younger than the first one. The police now believe that the suspect is between the ages of eighteen and forty and may look again younger than his true age. he also doesn't have a goatee like the first sketch and at the same time. Police reveal more audio from luby's phone. Please think the killer lives or works in the delphi area and or visits the area frequently and maybe even had been interviewed during the investigation. He is for sure familiar with the area and might be hiding in plain sight. A lot of people think this because the bridge was really remote when you lead someone through the woods. You're usually familiar with the area inasmuch as committing a murder there in more of the audio clip. You can hear a man saying it may have been part of his initial approach. The girls you can hear the word is before the familiar down the hill phrase so we don't get a ton from the audio just guys but but again guys is something guys would mean. Maybe you're familiar with some guys is a colloquialism from the midwest and a lot of ways people think that because of that might be a teacher but again would a teacher address their students as guys. I don't know it just feels familiar. So who did this. It may have been dale nations again. We talked about that but he was no longer a suspect at this point. Another person of interest was thomas. Bruce who formerly worked as a pasture and was charged with fatally shooting. One woman sexually assaulting two others after having ordered them at gunpoint into the back room of a suburban st louis shop for religious supplies. Some there were some similarities. Between that case and the delphi murderers so bruce committed his crimes in broad daylight on number nineteen two thousand eighteen. He's also similarly built to the man in the clip around five foot seven five foot nine inches but again. It's hard to verify the height of the person the clip also. He was wearing a flat cap and navy blue jacket during his attack again bearing some similarity to the delphi suspect and december fourth. Bruce was charged with seventeen. Felony counts related to the saint louis case and is in jail awaiting trial. It could be a man named charles eldridge who also looks like the old composite sketch. He was arrested on january. Eighth two thousand nineteen in union city indiana. On charges of child molestation and child solicitation a lot of people read it talk about it being a school employees. Like i mentioned before as everyone was out of school that day or it could have been someone who worked at the school again. What what would make these girls feel comfortable enough to maybe not. Where is the line or you know uncomfortable enough to start taking video. Another theory is that it was someone who worked at the nearby meatpacking plant. There was a plant not too far from this wooded area and a lot of the times. The workers would come down into the forest to take a break or smoke or whatever either way unfortunately the delphi murder is still unsolved far from cold just three weeks ago. An anonymous donor put one hundred thousand dollars into the reward. Fund meant to solve the case so now the reward for information leading to conviction in the case has increased to three hundred twenty five thousand dollars which is incredible. It's great that people are still talking about this and caring about this and also something nice maybe coming from this tragedy kelsey german. Liz older sister who is now. Twenty one is studying psychology and forensic science at purdue university to help homicide victims families. She also helped create nap called crime door that allows people to investigate cases themselves in the delphi murder case. It gives you a map and case information and takes you right to the high bridge creating a simulation to what the girls may have seen or experienced on that day to me. This feels like a case that with enough people investigating enough of spotlight on. It could be solved and also. We don't know how much the police have in terms of other footage from the phone which is something that frustrates a lot of people myself included. I heard of this case. Just all which is great. A lot of people have covered it. And there's a lot of conversation happening and it seems so close Close in time. It just feels like it's on the verge of getting solved or getting some kind of closure if you described the trailer to a movie like this. I'd be like wow what a what a what a really interesting compelling movie but it's real and it's where you're dealing with instead of not just oak. Can you composite sketch you're dealing with video and digital where it's not missing. It's they're like the person didn't think like unless you have a cell phone. Let me take that away. Not maybe not being aware of those things or just wasn't thinking of the time i don't know but that makes it when you have a little bit of tiny bit of audio and tiny bit of video. He's an even the word guys Could theoretically solve the case. One word can do that and think about how much video is taken. We take every single day. How many photos where. Just one word can match. Somebody's voice or whatever. I've also i think a lot of true crime. People probably on to on tiktok talk about crime door lot. This is one of those you know. We're talking about something that happened in like nineteen thirty five. I don't know how much coverage will help. Maybe it will but when it's something that just a few years old and so close like it's feels so close. I think it's really great that a lot of people are covering recurring. If i'm really surprised that three hundred and twenty-five thousand is if somebody knew something i can't be bought unless you are a prominent social or government figure. You're going to be like. I'm going to sell out somebody that i would normally sell out for three hundred twenty five thousand dollars feel like somebody knows something. Which shall we say a lot. And i think that that amount would be especially if the person's a bad person it's not a matter of like you're you know you don't question your own morality on this one. They must really. You know maybe people. Just don't know but i feel like as people people keep talking about it and there's the rewards big enough. There's probably at least one person alive that know something and that's a very very interesting place to be the case like this. I was reading an interview with sheriff about this case. And they asked him what the single most difficult part of solving this case or why hasn't been solved yet and he was like because this guy didn't talk to anyone because his person who looks like a generic as generic as you can really come went into the woods killed two girls and just vanished. You know like they don't know the ties obviously. They can't get identification on him. So really the only thing is people. Hopefully recognizing the changing composite sketches. And maybe the voice but even the voice again. i urge you to visit the clip. It's really terrifying. And listen to it last night. And i was like time to not go to bed. There's not there's not that much you know but also i just want to emphasize to like this. Thirteen-year-old girl scared probably out of her mind decided to like turn on her phone and take video. And there's some very empowering that this happened at this time that we can maybe have more things to get to. Who did this then in. Nineteen thirty five kind of thing and jenna would. I have done that as a small middle school. Or i don't know like how incredible is that and hope thought would be if this person plans on her has done it to other people in might put an end to that which finding out who this person is so definitely. It's just super brave in a time where you don't know what you do in that case and we'll talk about a lot about technology and how negative it can be but sometimes you know exactly what you need and i knows anything you know. Put the word out there and just keeps talking about it and the number is i. Don't have it in my notes right now but it's everywhere for tips. You put it in the description in any links and stuff like that so totally and read it. I mean people are have continued to talk about this case. There's something very again it's like innocent. And compelling it reminds me a little of cereal to or it's like you know the loss of innocence. Kinda thing and also. After i did this i went down a wormhole in terms of like people's last texts and phone like there's this whole new dimension that technology brings to cases like this that is terrifying an eerie and helpful. Like it's all of those things phones. They can be good sometimes. Hey listeners even amidst this crazy year we've had lots of people have been creating great art from impactful movies to binge worthy tv to entertaining podcasts. Like the one. You're listening to right now and now. We're in the middle of an exciting time of the year award season. Our podcast love under lockdown is nominated for best documentary. Webby award and we would love your support. Love under lockdown follows four relationships all in different stages as they navigate living together and apart during the pandemic listeners. They confront career. Changes health scares childcare. And even a break-up and bear it all for us to hear all episodes of love under lockdown are available now on apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and make sure to vote for love under lockdown under best documentary limited series or special at vote dot webby awards dot com voting. Closes may six. That's love under lockdown at vote dot webby awards dot com available. Now all episodes are available. Now on apple podcasts. All episodes are available now on spotify.

delphi abby williams libby indiana libyan abbey Libya deer creek jason horton libby german abigail j indiana state police lynn libby delphi libyan abbey luby delphi church delfi abby
The Unsolved Delphi Murders: Who is the Man On the Bridge?

True Crime Recaps

28:36 min | 2 years ago

The Unsolved Delphi Murders: Who is the Man On the Bridge?

"Hi there you found true crime recaps. This is the only podcast delivering a quick fix too. Busy chur crime attics who don't have time to get all obsessive. But still wanna discuss this crazy shit with a fellow addict, welcome friend. I'm your host, Amy Townsend. And I can't wait to tell you the latest, but I'm gonna keep it because I know you got blazes to be. So let's get into it with today's recap. Okay. I am so excited to talk about this. This is the Delphi murders. And if I am saying the name of that city wrong. I am so sorry God help me. I tried to listen to the police chief when he did his press conference. I played it over and over the little clip where he says the town name, and I think it's Delphi. But feel free to ride in tell me if I'm wrong anyway, people were murdered there. So we're going to talk about it there. Two best friends, Abby Williams, she was thirteen and Libby German fourteen. They had a day off from eighth grade on February thirteenth 2017. It's like a prearrange. And snow day or something even though it was warm out. And because it was warm they asked luby's older sister Kelsey to drive them to the Delphi historic trails. So they could you know, walk around take pictures just be outdoors. These are two really outdoorsy girls. So she agrees. She drops them off around two pm near the modern high bridge says abandoned railroad bridge tracks over deer creek. It's busy. There's a lot of people walking around. And this was kind of right at the trail head where she dropped them off. When she came back to pick them up a few hours later, they were nowhere to be seen a huge. Search party was formed, but it had to be called off after only a few hours because by that time it was too dark to see much of anything around noon. The next day February fourteenth their bodies were found about three quarters of a mile from where they'd been dropped off on the property of seventy seven year old Ron Logan who owns. About thirty acres in that area. So here's his deal. Because like me your first thought is probably that is the fucking guy. But it's not the fucking guy turns out he is the guy for another crime though, so kit this Ron Logan was on probation for multiple DUI's. And for what they're calling being a habitual traffic offender in two thousand fourteen and he wasn't supposed to be driving or drinking. But after all the attention he got because the girls were found on his property. Investigators discovered that all wron was still drinking and driving. In fact, he driven to the county dump on the day. The girls went missing, but stand-down witnesses put him there before the girls were even dropped off at the park. And then they found out he was driving and drinking down at the America's pizza king. So they arrested him anyway. And he alternately was sentenced to two years of house arrest. Can we say this person needs to learn about Uber? Quick side note, apparently people have been giving Kelsey Libby sister. A hard time about dropping the girls off to wander around these trails alone. And here's what she had to say about that bullshit on Twitter quote. I just wanna put out there that the girls were not dropped off in the middle of some isolated woods. I dropped them off at a walking trail where kids had been walking and hanging out all day. Yeah. I wish I hadn't. Yes. I get to regret that every day. We wish we would have said, no, unquote. May I just say this poor woman doesn't that kind of thing? Just make you wish you could hire Chrissy Teagan beer, publicist clapback at all the awful internet people on your behalf because AMB I right? No one does it as well. Or as hilariously as she does. I mean, we down to you, Chrissy. But if Chrissy was chiming in on that kind of hater talk, she'd probably say something along the lines of what kind of idiot thinks. Can tell two teenage girls that they can't go on a nature. Walk me. Why would you ever even think to try and keep them inside by all accounts? These two girls were active outdoorsy types. They played sports fish, they hunted. They did although smoke Indiana town things so a hike is a completely valid request. Now, if they had said, hey, could we go over to the home of the date rape? He football player and hang out unsupervised in his basement entering groovy laced hot chocolate can rookies actually work in hot drink then. Yeah. Of course, that's when you put your foot down, and you say hell, no. And you try locking them in their rooms with the windows nailed shut because that's pretty much what it takes to try and keep teenagers from doing whatever they want to do that had been me, and my mom tried to keep me, and my best friend from the great outdoors. I probably would have just snuck out and hitchhiked to the Delphi trails and been killed by the driver of the car that picked me up long before I actually got to the trail. I mean, not really I would never have. Voluntarily been hiking. But definitely trying to go to the mall or something. And I definitely wouldn't have been as smart as Libby was to get this actually get a picture and audio of my killer like she did to paraphrase, the Indiana state police sergeant that young lady is a God damned hero. Take a listen. This is the updated audio clip of the man on the bridge saying guys, and then ordering them down the hill the police just released this a few days ago. I'm gonna loop it four times, you can really hear it. It's a little muffled because it was in Libya's pocket and Lord knows if you can recognize the voice or just wanna get an ex-boyfriend in trouble. Call the Delphi. Police department just kidding about your ex unless he's actually the murderer. And then you should also call therapist because girl you're going to be traumatized for life. Anyway, here it is. Creepy. Hell, right. The video that goes with it is posted on our Instagram page at true crime recaps, it's a quick clip of this man walking toward Libyan Abby that she managed to grab with her phone before she shoved it in her pocket and got the audio. So why did you even think about pulling out her phone to tape? This guy you ask. Well, I was asking the same question. And from what I've read it seems that they may have passed him before they got to the bridge. And maybe he said or did something strange because she started recording audio before they got the bridge. And then when they saw him moving fast toward them on the bridge. They started taking that video a Stapley say more audio was played for the victims families. I've heard around six more minutes of audio was played. And it's mostly quote stuff girls talk about quote as well as a mention of a man they noticed behind them. But that has. Been released to the public. So that they have a way to know if in when they have the real killer so way of weeding out those false confessions. Now, you may remember I told you the police just released this audio and video this week, but that's not entirely accurate. They actually released the down the hill part of the audio in two thousand seventeen and then this new audio with the word guys at it is the new audio released this week the police also released a new sketch of the suspect this week. The first one was released in July of twenty seventeen. So like five months six months after the crime, and it's similar to the way the suspect looks in the video of him walking toward the girls. And also now you basically have to go to our Instagram page because for real it's all about the video is crazy basically be seen in alleged murderer right before strikes. He's a white male. Because of course, you've Guinness between five six and five. Ten Wayne one hundred eighty to twenty he's got reddish Brown hair. And no, you can't tell what is I color is. And he's wearing a hat, then the new sketch that they just released this week more than two years after the murders. Remember, a lot of sources are saying that it was actually drawn only three days after the crime in twenty seventeen the summer even going so far as to suggest that maybe the suspect called in on the tip line or acted as a witness and led to the release of the first sketch of a much older man, which means the police think he might have been disguising himself as an older man, or it is an older man who can look younger. So now, they're basically just looking for anyone between the ages of eighteen to forty which reminds me of the mask singer to have you ever seen that show on FOX? So really quick the mass singer is the singing competition sort of in which random celebrities. Get. All dressed up in these elaborate, costumes and whoever the costume designer is the real star that show, by the way. And they sing a song in front of judges and a live studio audience, and the judges have to guess who they are based only on their singing. And here's why the show is so stupid. And I swear it this is going to get us back to the Delphi murders. I promise, but the Massingir is so fucking dumb because these judges basically have the entire world of celebrities to guess from because these contestants they're not just famous singers. They could be actors athletes fucking YouTube stars whoever is basically impossible because you can't just be expected to guests from an entire fucking universe of possibles. Right. And that is basically what the police in Delphi are asking people to do some guy between the ages of eighteen and forty who may or may not look like the guy in the first catch or the guy in the second sketch. I mean, what the fuck despite the weirdness of these two totally different sketches, and the fact that they didn't release them until. Months and even years later, the police in this case actually seem really invested which feels like a big change from some of the law enforcement, in other cases, doesn't it? Although it actually makes sense when you consider the Delphi is very much that small town USA thing. It's only got about three thousand people, and it has a main street through the center of town and the jail city courthouse and library Earl within walking distance of each other. It's basically one of those little model train towns, except it's real and people get murdered there. And they generally don't get murdered in a little muddled train town unless you're some kind of cycle that murders your citizens in your little model train town. But honestly getting back to the point. If this guy does live in this town or know someone in town, and he hasn't been idea. I mean, how crazy is that come on some high schools have three thousand people and everyone's still knows who the total weirdos are right anyway. You need to hear some of the sheriff's press conference because he gets very wide open it, and it's kind of heart wrenching. But it's also weirdly patriotic in that like USA USA kind of way. I don't know maybe just hormonal either way I think it's worth listening to the whole thing. So that we can dissect it after it's only like six minutes or something in any pas, you notice are the detective getting choked up, I'm telling you, it is moving as hell he doesn't introduce themselves. So just so you're aware the detective talking is Indiana state police superintendent Doug Carter curious. Here. We're going to release today. I'm going to ask for your continued support. Continued understanding your Pathy and compassion as as we move forward to find out who did this, and we will. We're seeking the public's help to identify the driver vehicle that was parked at the old CPS welfare building in the city Adelphi that was abandoned on the east side county three hundred north next to your Hartland highway between the hours noon defy on February fourteenth two thousand seventeen. If you were parked there are no who was part there. Police content. The officers at the command post. At the Delphi city building. We're releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind. The person talking is one person. And is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is not to different people speaking, please listen to it very very carefully. We also releasing video recovered from Libya's phone. This video has never before been previously released. To video shows a suspect walking on the bridge when you see the video. Watch the watch the person's mannerisms as they walk watch the mannerisms as he walks. Do you recognize the mannerisms as big someone that you might know? Remember, he is walking on the former railroad bridge because of the deteriorating condition of the bridge. The suspect is not walking naturally due to the spacing between the ties. The course of this investigation. We have concluded the first sketch released will become secondary has today. The result of the new information and intelligence over time. Leads us to believe the sketch which you will see shortly is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls. We also believe this person is from Delphi. Currently or as previously lived here. Visits Delphi regular basis or works here. We believe this person is currently between the age range of eighteen and forty. But might appear younger than its true age. Directly. To the killer. Who may be in this room. We believe you're hiding in plain sight. For more than two years. You never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. But we have. We likely had interviewed you. For someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you. And you want to know what we know? One day. You will. The question to you. What will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls. Two children. Only coward. Do such a thing. We are confident that you had told someone what you have done. Or at the very least, they know. Because how different you are since the murders. We try so hard to understand how a person could do something like this. To jolt to two children. I recently watched a movie called the shack. There's also a book the talk so well about evil about death and about eternity. To the murder. I believe you had just a little bit of a conscience left. I can assure you. How you left them in that woods? Is not. It's not what they're experiencing today. To the family. I hope that you all will give them some time because we're going to be asking that. There's no media inquiry where no media response for the least the next two weeks. And I hope you understand why. The family found out about this about this information this morning. What the family to know that? When I take my last breath on this earth. Hobby thinking of them. There's going to be a tremendous amount of questions. I know that I know that never in my career. Have I stood in for something? Like this. Please be patient with us. Please. We're just beginning. We are. We are just now beginning, and I can tell you on behalf of the sheriff in the police chief, so many other partners. That have stood with us over this period of time that we will not stop. Now, tell me that wasn't moving as hell. Right. So couple of things, you know, that part when he talks about the movie the shack, it's kind of weird that he's breeding up such a specific movie, title rights, and we're all wondering what the deal is with that. Right. Well, apparently in that movie. The main character grew up abused. He has a crisis of faith, and he has to decide if he's on the side of good or not sources say that by mentioning that means law enforcement knows the killer is somehow involved with the church and might be hiding his crimes behind the sod of being a good Christian like the Btk killer who is a freaking deacon at the church for God's sake. Oh and quick clarification. Okay. You should know that when he says local he means Carroll county, which is super rural. So this person might not be like townie, but he lives around Delphi, even as far as fifteen to twenty miles away. And it makes sense. Don't you think mean a random person would not just hap-? Happen to be walking down the railroad track and happen upon these two girls out of the blue in these trails. There's nothing, but speculation and very few facts associated with this case. So of course, I turned to read it to hear what the locals were saying about this. But anyway, the general consensus from every source I found is that the middle part of the bridge that video is taken on again, the video you have got to go to the Instagram watch the fucking video. It's really the scenic part of the bridge. It's really only acceptable from one direction. The other end is pretty blocked up with bushes, and it sort of a dead end. So with him approaching on the bridge the way he is. It's definitely weird enough to set up alarm bells. He's coming right out them alone. And he's not strolling or looking at the byu or doing anything else to put these girls at ease. However, because the girls had to come back the way they came like the way he's coming out them. They must not have known his intentions right away. I mean, obviously, if you're for sure positive someone is coming to murder, you you would run across the bridge toward the overgrown trail at the other end. And like there's some secluded houses. Not too far away that they could have reached if they kind of crashed through the brush, but they probably didn't want seem like they're acting bizarre by running away. And by the time, he got close enough to them. He probably had a weapon of some sort. And by that time running wasn't an option for them. So however it happened. He has them off the bridge and down the hill, and they presumably cross deer creek at the shallow part, which is sort of near that bridge at that time, it would have been up to their knees. And then he had them climb the Bank on the other side it where it's not a steep as the rest of the creek banks. That's the side of the creek there were found on so taking him off the bridge and across the creek would have been the most direct route. And with less chance at any witnesses coming by and seeing what was going on. Also make sense that he would be from Delphi since he would have known the terrain apparently another person came along the bridge not long after they'd been abducted. And you know, you remember what Libby sister posted. It was busy that day since it was warm out. And what about the fact that police are starting to focus in on the abandoned car at that building? He talks about it in the beginning of the press conference. Does the fact that bridge guy as we're gonna call him his car was apparently parked so far at that abandoned building does that indicate that this attack was planned, and he was waiting for somebody to be out on that bridge. So he could trap and isolate or was this just a spur of the moment thing because he saw the girls and decided that they looked vulnerable enough for him to grab them, and how creepy is it when the sheriff starts speaking directly to the suspect and saying, it's probably someone they've already interviewed and may even be in the same room with them at that press conference the other interest. Thing about this case is that the cause of death has never been released. Don't you think? That's so weird. I read one source saying they were strangled. But nothing corroborating that. Since there was some DNA where they found the bodies the police in Delphi have been swabbing people and asking others, if they'd be willing to offer their DNA if necessary probably just to start ruling people out since that was a place many people in town what have been walking through? Now, according to one Delphi. Resident the police have questioned people as old as seventy and as young as twenty including the family and extended family of both of the girls course, they're even going door to door to try and get answers. Does this case remind anyone else of the Golden State killer case at that guy was linked to more than a dozen murders and fifty rapes in California starting in nineteen seventy six and it wasn't until last year. Forty two years later that they finally caught him Joseph Dangelo, he was seventy three. And it turns out he was a former cop, and they'll catch this guy to me personally. I think they should run all the DNA. They found at the scene through ancestry dot com or Twenty-three me and see what shakes out like they did with the Golden State killer in that case cops you something called G D match which sounds like a dating site for people who only have a GED. But in fact, it's some sort of DNA database, but as we've established in previous episodes, I am not a dedicated detective working with an elite unit in New York City or anywhere. Really? But still here's hoping the Delphi. Police will do something similar to nail this guy. But if they were doing that chances are, then no one would know because law enforcement in this case has been incredibly tight lipped about details. I mean, not knowing the cause of death at this point even with so many people involved with this investigation that has got to be unheard of isn't it? But here are a few more factoid, you might be interested in. In the obituaries, Lipper tease. All right liberties full name, her date of death is listed as February thirteenth while Abigail Abbes is February fourteenth some people took that to mean. The autopsy results showed that Abby stayed alive longer than Libby and wouldn't leave her, but the family explained the discrepancy as one family choosing the date. They went missing and the other choosing the date that they were found despite the fact that the murders happened near a body of water creek the killer didn't put their bodies in the water. He left them just out of sight a passersby in the overgrowth near the creek. And the DNA that live forcement has is not semen or blood, but rather touch DNA which is harder to identify. But it would have been totally lost. If he had decided to leave them in the water. We also know a few other chilling details. Thanks to some early post by ABI step uncle who was part of the search party that found them he sends deleted the post, but some on. The ball true. Crime fans related parts of them saying that the bodies were covered with leaves. And that Libby, quote got the worst of it, unquote. But no more details than that. The autopsy results are sealed and no information about cause of death is available and believe me, I have loved we may not ever find out what happened near the bridge that day, but we do know is that at one time or another it's likely that one of the girls probably had the chance to escape, but it's hard to tie up one person and keep a gun or a knife trained on another person they stepped together because they were best friends, and I don't know about you. But I could never leave my friend. Did I either we both escape or we both die. And that's what seems to have happened here. I know it's corny. But can we just take a moment to silently say I love you too are besties mean it's easy to die for a person. But a whole other thing to actually, you know, be killed because of them non February thirteenth these girls died for each other almost certainly and in some kind of bucking terrifying way, God willing, we will never have to know firsthand exactly what their loyalty cost them. But dammit law enforcement needs to find this guy. In the meantime, maybe we travel impacts of three from now on because for sure one person in that group is gonna say fuck you both and run away. And then at least the guy could be identified and may be caught. But whatever your method of self protection. Make sure you keep your eyes open. And if anyone approaches you and raises the hair on the back of your neck breakout. Your best karate moves pitches. Meet should we hear this? The suspects audio clip. Just one more time to get us riled up and inspired to kicks mass. I think we should. So creepy it just blows my mind now, go give your best friend fucking hug and tell her about the show because I'm not above a shameless plug speaking of shameless plugs, if you like the show, would you please take a second to give it a five star review. Maybe even write a quick note about how much you loved it in tunes feel free to lie. If necessary it only takes a few seconds. But the good it'll do will last forever. But seriously, it really will help keep our content front center, and we will be forever grateful. Thank you. Don't forget to subscribe. So new episodes are automats downloaded for free in your library. Wanna to discuss this cases that is ideal? Let's talk about it on Facebook or Instagram or even Twitter at true crime. Recaps I'll see there until then sleep with one eye open because someone out there probably wants to kill you.

Delphi Kelsey Libby murder Instagram Ron Logan Delphi Indiana Libya Abby Williams Twitter Chrissy Teagan deer creek Amy Townsend America YouTube luby football
Introducing Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

03:14 min | 1 year ago

Introducing Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

"What's the one thing you've never told anyone people just like you tell all in a podcast called the secret room if you're a true story fan and you cannot not get enough of people's most intimate dreams desires in shame. You will love the secret. Room like meals deathbed confession that our daughter's absent father the movie star. I wish I could tell someone who the father is. While I'm still on earth. Were Jen secret. Love affair with a man on death. Row It's tearing my oral down and something thing. He just has devastated me or the way that Joey falls in love with inanimate objects I know people who were in relationships with construction equipment. People all around you carry the most amazing secrets. You're invited to the secret room for a front row seat to spectacular stories. That will touch you jar you and amaze you. I'm Ben Ham your host search for the secret room. A podcast about the stories. No one ever tells. It's just a small town in the middle of nowhere. You're how could something so horrific and terrifying found its way here. It was a mild winter day in Delphi. Indiana Abby Williams and libby German went for a hike in vanished. Police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before. Both girls disappeared about sixteen sixty miles north west of Indianapolis the next day. Their bodies were found. We are investigating this as a francine. We suspect foul play. An unusual clue gave the police. A powerful lead law enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. But the man in that video remains a mystery. It's amazing that we have radio. We have a still photograph. We had sound this person's and that mystery story is a cloud that still hangs over Delphi. It could be half the white males in Carroll County anywhere you go. You're always thinking about okay. Could that be that person to the killer who may be in this room. We likely had interviewed you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. One day you you will almost three years later. This crime is still unsolved. Why after forty. Eight thousand tips. Police say they're they're just one away from solving the murders who has that. Tim H. L. and brings you in the story with unprecedented access and key voices speaking for the first time. What happened in those woods that day. And who is that man in the video on the Bee's phone the voice of a killer saying those simple words that still haunt this town down the hill the Delphi orders. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.

Delphi Ben Ham Indianapolis Carroll County Jen Joey Indiana Abby Williams Tim H. L. libby German three years One day
The Delphi Trail Killer (Active)

Drowning Verdict

24:49 min | 7 months ago

The Delphi Trail Killer (Active)

"Hey chip mahoney here. So in today's episode. I've got a few sponsors one of them being my while. Electro dot com. I really liked the site because they have stuff. That really niche based in technology such as power banks smart watches and smart response. But i gotta tell you. I got my eye on this Streaming condenser microphone. That found their for really great price that it couldn't find an amazon and also some really good reviews. So if you've heard my podcast you can't see me. But i just gotta say that sometimes things held together by duct tape so i need an upgrade and if you need an upgrade in your technology Check out my wow. Electro dot com really great. Prices could stuff there my while. Electro dot com my other sponsor is simmer s. that's s. i m. r. p. o. s. dot com. It's cloud based point of sale software for your business so if you've got a business dealing with customers you need a point of sale software you can do online ordering Really anything you need you just turn on the feature and you get cooking with simmer. That's sl mr po. S dot com one of my sponsors today And also use the listener. So thank you guys. Hello and welcome to drowning verdict. I'm chip mahoney and you're listening to my true crime podcast. This is a podcast where i talk about cases out there that fascinate me and go more in depth with the case. So thanks for joining me today. You might have found me on my youtube or my twitter which is a good way to get the latest episodes in format and right now actually. I am doing full episodes on youtube. So you can hit the channel there you can sub that and you don't need to go anywhere else other than youtube but if you do have a favorite podcast platform such stitcher a spotify apple whomever you can find me there and you can follow me. You can share with friends and come back for more. Because i try to deliver bigger and better for you each and every time and if i can't do that it's a new nugget of information something to chew on that you might not find in the regular news feed so i'm an author. I talk about stories connections new angles and maybe even uncovering some truth here and there which From time to time it seems possible. In these cases. I often look at cases that are Closed cases cold cases that have been Finally solved to learn something from it and apply to new open inactive cases such as the focus of today i think there's something to be learned from previous cases and apply. And what do i mean by that. Well if you've checked out dvd before you've probably heard me talk about some characters like the long island. Serial killer in mr cruel. Mr cruel francis is a really old case. But it's still an open case cold case but there's something to be learned from that some new ideas and new theories in fact i do have a new theory there. And you can find that in the Mr cruel episodes now for long island serial killer. You know that That isn't open inactive case and it's cold not too cold because it's more of a recent type of case i would say However i've presented some new evidence there from my point of view in my research that can be helpful to one that is looking to be. I don't know an internet detective. Somebody who wants to help out in these types of things. Because i think in today's world sharing of information is really really important. And maybe there's one thing that does hinge on the and that does turn around now in today's case i'm talking about the delphi trail killer. Which is delphi indiana. Which is a case. That's about four years cold right now but as an open inactive case and the fbi and the authorities are definitely encouraging sharing of information. Talking about The information and maybe even providing some tips and in today's episode. I'm going to actually give you something to work with. And it comes from my experience in looking at previous cold cases and applying that that knowledge going forward and something to look at. So you're going to find that out. Today's episode about the delphi trail killer. And what happened there and what you might be able to do about it with the information gained today. I'm going to give that to you. Let me i give you a little background on this if you haven't heard of it Starting to gain more traction in the media You know in today's world everybody and their mother house to a podcast in some of the channels that you find on television You know it could be your local. You know cooking channel. And they're going with true crime shows because well they're and they sensationalize everything so with the delphi case you know. Unfortunately from the media's perspective there's a lot of sensationalism that they can do with it. And why is that well. Unfortunately it's because two innocent. Young teenage girls were killed and that is just You know it's a tragedy but these are the things that the media runs with Kind of stuff that they really go after. And so that's why you're seeing it on tv channels and maybe even your local cooking show is doing a true crime episode on it. I'm not trying to jump on the bandwagon like everybody else. But i'm trying to provide some new angles and some new ideas that could be applied if possible and could be shared and maybe it does something because in this case there is some interesting information that is not normally available in such a case but it happened about four years ago in february of two thousand seventeen and as the story goes To young teenage girls Not going to name them in this. Pittman this podcast. You can look that up because you know they're underage. And i really don't like to talk too much about the tragedy of them particularly because very sad but They were together and disco. Going out to this This trail in delphi indiana. It's known as a historic trail and were pretty much by themselves. Just spending some time together both about thirteen fourteen years old And within twenty four hours They were. They were found dead so they went. I as missing persons by hours and then the next day right around the mid afternoon. I think that they were found. And the police have not said The condition or how they were killed. It's just that they they were killed now. One of them had taken a video of a man crossing the bridge with his head down. You might have seen those pictures of the video on the fbi website and the police do believe this is the suspect that this is the person responsible so we have an actual live picture. We also have a sketch. And there are two sketches. One is of a younger looking man and one is of an older looking man. white male so on and so forth and wanna talk about that sketch and wideouts Really really important to this case and all the going to give you some of the things to look for As far as possible suspect because police do have Identified it as at least this is our suspect. This is the person we think is involved. And you know that's They usually don't get something like that so we've got the the video. We've also got an audio as well. And i'm gonna share that audio here in a minute with you seeking. Listen to it but the thirties have said yes. This is the killer on video and audio. Let's talk about what we've learned when i have learned from previous cases that like i said were once cold but Somehow some way possibly through dna most likely that they got solved. And then we find out who the perpetrator is. And then we learn about that person. So i think in learning about the people that commit crimes like this that they can be applied to other people in the future if if they match up as zero case but if not a serial case still worthy to think about In this case the interesting thing that happened is that it's such a You know a horrific crime that you would think it would be a serial killer that would be an s. k- on the loose It's possible it's possible that they were just starting in this area and there's gonna be more victims in the future but if it's a one off event that this killer just wanted these girls for whatever reason then that's going to be more challenging. I think you'll be a little bit less challenging if it were a serial case so we don't know that yet but here's what we can apply that we've learned in the past. I've learned that in cases such as this if it is a serial case whether it's the start of it or whether it's the middle or the end of it that the perpetrator is a white male. And he's going to be between thirty and forty five years old. So that's what i found with guys like this in these types of cases that are They're horrific in this nature and when you're looking at a suspect one thing that i've found also is something i call lt and that means it's not under phone. It's not the bars on your phone. It's what i call lt for long term employment so if it is A guy who is you know between thirty and forty five years old and may be on the You know the further end of that. Which is the older end of that Which is actually guy pictured on the bridge on an older white male. I would say to be forty five. Could be forty seven years old. Something like that that he has long term employment and that long term employment with guys like this usually come from places institutions that are receiving money from the public public municipalities university's places where the income the revenue generated by the employer whom they are working for is not from Traditional capitalism. If you will you know selling a product A company out there gaining customers based on value that sort of thing More times than not in almost a hundred percent in the cases that i've seen that with long term employment over ten years over fifteen twenty sometimes thirty years that the employer that they're working for is receiving money from public municipality and it could be that they are You know something like a police officer or a university More may be one of the public utilities where the money coming in is Not so much based on the value that you're providing the end customer but that they have to pay you anyways. So you think about something like the post office versus ups or fedex ups and fedex are public companies that were once private but they went out there to Provide value to the public in order to gain them as customers now. The post office just received printed money there you know usually in the whole but they don't have to provide service in order to have have customers into have revenue they get that revenue regardless because You know it's funded by the government. So there's the funding going on. And so if i had to pick a you know a serial killer and they s- and some it said well. He works at one of three places. He works at the post office. He works at ups. Or fedex. I said it's gonna be the post office. It's gonna be the post office not because he's postal because because as long term employment and because that money comes from somewhere else other than providing value to the public to win them as customers so long term employment something that i look for in serial killer cases In this kind of case it could be something to look at as well now if you're on the younger end of the spectrum and the other sketch is of a younger man and so we don't really know what's up with their. We have a an older sketch to start with. You know somebody who could be forty five years old maybe forty seven years old and then we have a younger looking man and let me talk about from it because that comes from initially in this case where In this area of delphi indiana. I've i've never been there before. Maybe you have. But there's a different Little cities within maybe fifty seventy five miles. Maybe thirty miles little spots where people can live in a place like delphi has about three thousand people in population and it's one of the smaller towns in the area and so a woman was traveling on on this day which was a monday it was february thirteenth. Two thousand seventeen the day before valentine's day by the way as about eight o'clock at night and she was coming back I believe from west. Lafayette where. She said that she had worked traveling. The twenty five north where. She spotted this young man who was walking. I guess in the same direction. North on the twenty five again. I've never been there. So i can't really picture it. But she described that he was looking for a ride yet he would not make eye contact with her in and she was very nervous just about the situation. She said that he she couldn't give him a ride but then he mentioned that his father was picking him up in that he could keep on walking as so. That's where the sketch comes from as the sketch comes from. And so we have the young man sketch. We have the the older man sketch he could be father and son who are involved in this. That would be a can't say it would be a new one but it would be unusual one But that's not to say that it couldn't happen so Traveling the twenty five Into delphi he said he was going to see a girlfriend You know the day before. Valentine's day at monday at eight pm. It doesn't sound like that adds up to me. It's possible that if this person was involved he was walking in the opposite direction of where he would be intended to go so if he were to get a ride from this woman and possibly abductor or take her over. I believe he'd be travelling in the opposite direction. I don't think he would have got in the vehicle took over the vehicle and then continued north into delphi as he said in his story. dat in my mind Is a possible lie. So if he was looking to hijack someone which it seems as if she avoided that then i do believe he would gone and some other direction so we don't know we don't know for sure but it doesn't add up for me on a monday at eight pm the day before You know valentine's day to want to go see your girlfriend. I think you would make that for the next day. But that's just me that doesn't add up however They were able to get hurt. This woman to talk about The profile Who she think this person look like and this sketch Which is actually on the podcast cover. Here is of the younger than you know. Probably twenty nine thirty years old but say and one thing that i've learned from previous cases with You know serial killers. I can't say that this is a serial killer case. I can't say that. But one thing i've learned. Is that the sketches when The perpetrator is actually caught and brought to justice and matched up without sketch. It's usually spot on. So what's interesting. Is that these sketches here that were made available of the older manned to start with that was seen on the bridge. And who's in the video and who's going to be in the audio that you'll hear here on this podcast. those are usually spot on spot on in Quite frankly in the cases that i've covered It's you look at the matching of of the sketch in the actual person in you say well. Why didn't why weren't they caught because it just matches them to a t. So these sketches these are the perpetrators. These people are responsible. They match up they match up because they do in just about every other case i've ever worked on. So that's something to think about so here we're gonna play Some audio and then. I'm going to get back to you. And we'll talk about the audio. We'll talk about the video little bit but let's listen to it here right now. Hang on here. We go alright. So i'm back So that was actual audio from the man on that bridge walkway. I is over water. So he says guys down the hill. What does that mean. who's he talking to. and what about. Well let's talk about it. Because i actually think that this guy on this Bridge that's captured in the audio captured. Video is the person that is responsible. I don't know so much about the younger man with the sketch. It could be a father and something and the sun is just following along with the father's crimes and for whatever reason could be could very well be that so he says guys down the hill. He's walking downhill. I guess on a bridge. I've never been there. Maybe you have got his hands in his pockets. He's about five nine five ten and yeah white male probably forty five years old. Probably someone with term employment probably someone who's job in which he is receiving money comes from funding other than the public as i've described and that's what i see the were in delphi indiana population of three thousand people. That is a small town in fact. It's probably one of the smallest towns there because the other towns that i've looked at our eight thousand ten thousand more in population so small town. So what. I say that. And i bring that up is because if this guy on the bridge was not involved and he just happened to be out there then i think that a he would have been identified already in a town of three thousand people and be he would have approached. The authority is to say You know this is me. But i wasn't involved and i saw these girls and this is what i saw so i think that person would come forward is what i'm sane in a town of three thousand people. It would not be hard to find out the who the what the where the win. And that's why. I think that this person came from somewhere possibly west lafayette But somewhere within fifty to seventy five miles But i was most likely seventy five miles two hundred miles away and say that because in other cases that i've covered when they are serial killer cases though serial killers are usually within about thirty to forty to fifty miles of their activities. And it doesn't seem as if this is a serial killer case just my feeling about it. So therefore i think the distance islam the distances longer away so i think this guy is involved as the police say they don't normally say that they don't normally give that away but i think that there are one hundred percent on it and it makes sense to me because he was out there. One of the girls She put it on her snapchat. That's how this this got captured. He's looking suspicious. He's obviously avoiding that camera. As best he can otherwise he would be looking at them. You know they're out there in that That kind of a nature setting he would look at them possibly wave and say hello not. Just look down at the ground like. He's walking in a major metropolitan area like new york city trying to avoid i contact with with people. He's avoiding i contact for reason because he's about to strike he's about to pass them by turn around and strike. So that's what i have so far in this case and we will see what develops but i do know that the authorities could use your information your ideas about it and so these are my ideas about this active case. That seems as if it was a one off is a one off and it might not be that This person's zero killer in that they have long term employment at a a public institution such as university such as You know somewhere serving public And receiving money from The the government the state government the municipalities. Like like the police force for instance. But for sure this person works at a company somewhere and he has long term employment. He's been there been there for a long time. And those sketches matchup those sketches matchup. And if they were to be caught when they match up the sketch with the person caught it's going to be spot on. That's what i normally see. So what do you think. Can this guy be caught. Do you think that the this was a father and son together doing something. It's very possible not probable but possible However the guy that bridge in my mind is the guy you want to catch so think about that Think about sharon in any information that you might know this. Podcast for instance to inspire others like yourself because the police the fbi are calling for it. They need your help. They need your help in a case. That's four years. Cold right now can easily go. Ten years can easily go ten years so just think about that. Next time i'll have more for you On this most likely but for now chew on that share the information and come back for more. Because i'm glad that you do. And i know that you're interested in this stuff and also interested in finding justice for these girls had to serve it so thanks for joining me on drowning verdict. This chip mahoney. I'm signing off. I'll see you next time bye bye.

delphi mahoney youtube Mr cruel francis indiana long island fedex delphi fbi public public municipalities u Pittman amazon valentine twitter apple Lafayette
Chapter 6: A Walk In The Woods

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

45:13 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 6: A Walk In The Woods

"To get a look at the people in places we're talking about in this show and to find out how you can call or email in atip visit our website down the hill podcast dot com so much what we do. We have to evaluate analyze right. I mean there's there's business perspectives of business models and metrics. And I hate all that stuff. I hate it because we don't really know the positive effect on so many people like those two little girls that are going to view life differently now than ever. Before and in the circle happens they have children. And you are what you witnessed a child right. So what does that really mean over time? I think there's a lot of good that will come of this. I think so and I noticed it up there and that's community. I've I've I've every time I get opportunity to talk about that community I do. You can't walk down the street without being being grabbed. Hold of or thank you a wave at you with all hands with fingers. You know when you when you when you drive through there. You can't go anywhere without somebody saying thank you. That's pretty cool. That happen everywhere else by now. You're probably asking yourself. How is there not been an arrest given everything we've learned so far? It's an understandable question. So let's catch up. School was out the day that libby German and Abby Williams were murdered. That was widely no. It was a planned day off. They went for a hike on the Monan High Bridge. An old railroad bridge that hasn't been in use since the eighties and has seen better days at some point. After crossing the portion of the bridge over Deer Creek they encountered they're killer. We know that because libby took her phone and started recording video in a still from that video. We see a man wearing blue jeans. A blue jacket and a brown Hoodie. His face is difficult to make out. And at some point in that encounter he orders to go down the hill words that were recorded on the phone. We know that hill is at the south end of the bridge. They walked onto the bridge from the north. We don't know how but the killer and the girls crossed back to the other side of the creek not far from where they were dropped off. That's where their bodies were found almost a day after they went missing about a quarter mile from the bridge. Investigators have been very very very tight lipped about the crime scene and even now more than three years later. They still haven't released most of the details. We don't know how or when they were killed and we don't know why all we really know. Is that whatever? Investigators saw out there. It shook them badly. We recently learn new details about that crime scene. The killer left at least two signatures there if he kills again. We're told that those signatures will most likely be at that scene too. We're also told. The crime scene was odd strange words seemingly connected to what those signatures were and the possibilities. We think of when we hear that are probably way off all this gives us some insight into the type of killer. We may be dealing with and the nature of the crimes. He committed more new mysteries in this story. There always are who did this. What happened out there that day? Why is this crime not solved? Police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared the announcement that the girls have been found to a good end. We are investigating this as a crime scene. We suspect foul play. Law Enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. We have we have a still photograph. We have sound on this person's it could be half the white males and Carroll County to the killer who made in this room. We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. In one day you will come down the hill the Delphi murders. I'm Barbara McDonald along with Andrew Aydin. We just ran down the major details up to this point in time line it adds up to what simultaneously seems like a lot and practically nothing in our last chapter. We learn new details about the crime scene and the picture is gained a little more focus from this point forward. With a few very notable exceptions the police circle the wagons and goes silent for a while. There's a lot to put together here. The pieces can fit in a number of ways to get a sense of the what though it's essential to understand the where place matters here a lot. I want you to feel that too so in this chapter. We're taking you to Delphi to the woods to the bridge. Part One. We caught up Wouldn't trade small community life right anything except for the day that this happened? T just look in the eyes and that was the only thing that this community talked about. And now whenever you Google doll far just punch in the first thing that comes up and now that's part of our community and it is a part of who we are now Delphi. Indiana is about an hour and a half north west of Indianapolis it's the Carroll County seat and an easy drive to Chicago two hours your up for a cubs game. It's a small northeast neighbor to Lafayette there. The home of purdue the boilermakers downtown is divided by Washington and main streets and a beautiful old stone marble. Courthouse sits where the two intersect up and down. Main Street you'll find plenty of beautiful buildings hosting Delphi's shops and restaurants and books. This is a Carnegie Library. I mean this is a library that was built in the early nineteen hundreds and has seen a lot of expansion and It's a great place for kids to come. I brought my kids here. You know when they were little for puppet shows and story time Julia he is the Executive Director of the Carroll County Chamber of Commerce. Here in Delphi. It's her job to get people to come to town. She's lived here her entire life and as a good person to give us the lay of the land. Delphi is a quaint Small community that has a lot of interesting things to do You're so close to the bigger cities. I think people like to to live here visit here because it's at small town slower pace you know and you can escape the hustle and bustle the bigger cities. But you're so close. If you need those big city amenities what are some of the big landmarks for places? Some of the landmarks here Were home with the Wabash and Erie Canal so there is a one mile section where you can actually take a canal. Boat Ride Kinda live like you did in the eighteen hundreds And that was entirely built by volunteers. The center of the park. The trail system Another thing that was more recent about six years ago. Was the Delphi Opera House. And so that's been interesting for people to come and see Performances back in the early nineteen hundreds with James whitcomb Riley. What are the people of Delphi like people? Adelphi are friendly. You know it's. It's not unusual to walk down the streets. They hide it to people. Greet you that way. And I'm sure you have found that to wave. They say hello. If you look lost. They're going to stop and say what. Can we help you with We're close community Is how I would describe us. Do you think that people outside of this area connect Delphi with this crime? How do you mean is that something you come up against as you're promoting this area when you say I'm yes from Delphi? Yes what do people say exactly so for months on end when I would travel and go to conferences and things like that and they want to know where he came from. I would say well my I live and work in Delphi in it was an immediate reaction and even to this day. It doesn't happen as often but people like. Oh Yeah I remember what happened there and Delphi and even from a tourism point of view when when you Google doubtfire you google things to do. I mean that's what's coming up. You know it's sad that we're known for that now And I hope to people realize that there's so much more here and you can come here enjoy a lot of things but also still know that you're in a in a place where people remember fondly You know about these girls. So it's It sounds like there's a resiliency to the town. Yeah that's a good. That's a good point. I think people here are strong. The kids were strong. You know my niece was the same age and it. Just they've come through this. You know. It's sad that they all had to grow up so quickly that day and You see them people close you know. People are closer together I think you're willing to help your neighbors out even more than what you ever were before But there's still this. People are just more cautious more suspicious. They look over their shoulders which people probably already do and bigger cities. But here we didn't. We didn't have to lock your door. You didn't have to worry about that and now stuff didn't happen here. No it doesn't happen here and it's like we caught up to the rest of the world in the most perfect way possible now. That Julia's given us an idea of what Delphi's like let's get out into the county and look around with all the pictures and video. You may have seen of where the crime happened. The trails the woods the bridge. It's easy to assume all that is in a remote area far away from everything. It's actually a short drive from downtown. It's only about five minutes or so. We got in the car and headed that way so we are approaching the parking lot now. Four in fact right here. This sign indicates is the parking lot for the MON high bridge. Three hundred north is a narrow country road and as far as the story of the DELPHI. Murders concerned it's our main backdrop and we're that day in February two thousand seventeen began so keep going on this road. And what's GonNa Happen is we're going to go under the hoosier highway here and then the water tower should be up on the list. Wants to come out from under here and we're going to be making a right. Turn at the Stop. Sign so yeah. They're water towers right there to the last week. Oh right. That's Barbara giving us many tour of the area she'd been here twice before as part of Hr Lens reporting team. I'm driving and Dan producer sitting in the back now. This is three hundred north this road. Yes and so over here on left. This is the mirrors farm. This is where a lot of the law enforcement and even the families came and parked here Because this was the entrance. So here's the red gate you can see it now up on the right. There's not much of a parking lot here. Which is why it was a drop off spot and not really a place where people part so right here. This is exactly where the girls went into the trail and walked just a few minutes down there and to the left and then walked down in these trees that were seen to the right of us now. I don't know if these are soybeans growing here what this is This is big agriculture area and as we go further up where those trees are. That should be where the cemetery is. An cemetery is one of the landmarks because it indicates the crime scene crime scene was just down from the cemetery closer to the creek. So we're also approaching Ron lukens property correct on the other side of the cemeteries where his land begins and then he owns quite a bit of land down by the Creek as well? Now as we're looking to the right that is where the bridge and the creek and where the girls swear this. Ron's house here. It's pretty obvious. Old House yeah. He's lived there for a long time and he owns quite a bit of land back here. I don't know how many total acres but it's a lot. Let's talk about Ron Logan. If you've done any googling about this case you've probably seen his name in just about every complicated high profile murder. There are inevitably people who become part of the story because of circumstance. That's Ron the killer left Abbey and Libyan. A piece of his land and a whole world of attention landed on him. We've attempted to reach him several times and invited him to be on the show but he wasn't interested back in February of two thousand seventeen though he gave plenty of interviews guided tours and looks at the freshly cleared. Crime scene to journalists are show. Horn was a producer for H. Eleven then and got the full Ron Logan tour to. Here's a little bit of that. So where's the hybrids with these off area or the girls were found. Know I can get down here. Was this this deep? So how because of that? How what are the entry points like? How would someone actually? So this is the only way you can mark here you okay you got it somewhere the area the girls were found. I'm not sure what location they actually laying a family of German girl. Cain here the other day and put some flowers down there and a particular spot. So we're about probably so other than coming through your property though. How can you review begins in the big before we move on? We need to say this. Ron has repeatedly denied any involvement in this crime. He has never been named as a suspect and as far as we can tell he's not a suspect at all. He's just a guy who's been caught up in the massive undertow. This case has created another victim of circumstance just a reminder that our website is a great place to see some of the places. We'RE TALKING ABOUT MAPS. Pictures and video await you at down the hill. Podcast DOT com down. The hill supported by better help online counseling. Sometimes Life's tough for me you everyone we could all use help in those down moments but may not know how or where to ask for it. You need to know you're not alone. You're really not better. Help is available for you. They offer licensed counselors who specialize in the issues many of us struggle with like depression anxiety stress complicated relationships problems sleeping grief trauma in anger. Stresses a big one for me and better help. Give me a place where I can talk to someone when I need to keep track of how. I'm feeling you can connect privately with a counselor through text chat phone video calls and get help on your own time at your own pace at affordable rates and if you happen not to click with the professional. You're working with you can opt for a new one at no additional charge. Better help is committed to finding the right person to give you the right. Help down the hill listeners. Get ten percent off their first month with Discount Code. D T H. That's better help dot com slash D T H. Why not get help? Better help dot com slash T T H. What's the one thing you've never told anyone people just like you tell? All in. Podcast called the secret room. If you're a true story fan and you cannot get enough of people's most intimate dreams desires and shame. You will love the secret room. Like meals deathbed confession that our daughter's absent father is a movie star. I wish I could tell someone who the father is. While I'm still earth were Jen. Secret love affair with a man on death row. It's turn my world upside down and something. He just did has devastated the way that Joey falls in love with inanimate objects I know people who were in relationships with construction equipment people all around you carry the most amazing secrets. You're invited to the secret room for a front row seat to spectacular stories. That will touch you jar you and amaze you. I'm Ben Ham your host search for the secret room a podcast about the stories. No one ever tells pardoned to turn around here. We know that Ron Logan's property is where as far as we know this crime ended but where it started. That's not far from Ron's house. The merest farm is directly across the street from that redgate where abby and Libya were dropped off. We parked there along with the person who drove them that day. Libby Sister Kelsey German. We're about to go into those same woods and walk the path that girls walked but before we do. We need to explain what you're about to hear. We've actually been to these woods twice once with. Kelsey and once is superintendent. Carter was there for the beginning of the story and the others intent on being there for the end we visited the site of the crime with both on different dates and starting with Kelsey. We'll be moving back and forth between those moments and perspectives as we make our way down the trail towards the bridge where all of the started. The redgate wasn't here at the time. No it was actually just a sign that said Mon on hybrid kind of where that like tree is a rather in his offenses and then It was just open and you could park there and go in and then it was easier to get from high bridge to hear that way shorter walk because now the official entrance is what like a quarter mile or so away from where we are. Yeah it's a very long walk from hybrid to Freedom Bridge but from here to the bridge much shorter shorter lots of lots of times and you said the last time we spoke to you that for you the woods will never be the same. I still feel that way even when I'm at home in my own woods. Yeah I think it was. I think a lot of people feel that way. There's been a lot of violation here. The freedom and sanctity of a real place to the perception of safety and security bet most parents in this area where the drop their kids off anymore for. Shame shame this is the path that you watch your sister walk down. Yes and how far did you watch them? Walk until I couldn't see them anymore. So as probably as you pass the streets different is this area. Look in me winter in the winter. It's like no leads so it's very clear you can see so much like into trees just as pretty as there's so. I'll talk a little bit about the logistics of coming out here and searching for two girls when you don't know where they are right. It's almost impossible really to get your arms around there. This is rural as it gets in anywhere in the country really. It's rolling. It's up and down the stretch of the trail. It was quite a task quite a task and and the search began just as it's starting to get dark four o'clock afternoon or so. Yeah did it complicate things for you guys that this is such a volunteer community and when people heard they just came out and started searching on their own awesome. It was awesome. The obviously the end result wasn't good but there was nothing compromised by them doing what they did. So some people have speculated that we've heard an estimate that maybe there were a thousand people out here searching that first night and that that did in fact contaminate your crimes. I don't there's all kinds of speculation. It's easy to have an opinion when you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah it'd be different. If once the girls were found that would have been completely moved. That's not the case I grew vested with so many people looking for them that first night. Why weren't they found? Go leave that question. We are approaching the area where the girls entered the trail. And there's a a trail marker there it's become a bit of a memorial. What does it mean to you? This intersections tough for me will always be tough for me. I closed my eyes. I can see him the innocence here. You know I can see it. Came from the left side over here and that joking and cutting up like two young girl who do probably or walking quietly or walking having a conversation about whatever and then they turn left in the world's about to change he. Opiates so many people not very where they are. But for those remaining thinking man just turned right. Not Left so yeah. This is pretty special place on that bench like you say the beauty up there Some there's a reason this all happened what it is yet. Just don't know what I just don't what it is is that to the girl Texted if there's something that he could've left here like maybe he left a note for them or maybe he left Iraq that he painted or something because he could have so. I just always check the notes when we come here and the notes on our graves and things like that with do think he would say in a note. How would you recognize that? It was an item left by him. I don't know I just feel like if it was from him I would know just by looking at it. I feel like he'd be really sneaky and try to do something like that. What did that look like? A poem at says. Love is so strong that it will guide your way and everyone is still looking for the cowards. That Straw you away so keep smiling and guiding us all down below for we love you so much that your soul's beauty and love will never grow old. Do you think there could be that element that he's he's watching. He's he's that. Close now probably. Yeah yeah whoever it is. Whoever it was as stared at this nature reserve sign. I just like we are right now. I know that first day stood right here. Stood right here when you go out to the crime scene. What is that like is very peaceful And you guys probably haven't been out there but it's in the middle of the woods and it's just the most peaceful place because you can watch the creek and just sit there and think about the the nature that's around you instead of what happened. Do you feel like that area is secluded. Is it an area that he would have known that? I have privacy here. Probably you can't really see anything you can just barely see the bridge and you can see all of the water and just nothing but trees so I don't think anybody would have heard them or him or anyone else. We're approaching the bridge. Now what do you see as you look at it? Film seem standing. Run out there. You can see him standing out there. That feels the same way every time I come here. Gosh Dang it then you look back this way. You'll see them walking here. You can see you can see in just doing the girls do. Yeah Bridges Golan. Do you think him. Approaching them on. The bridge was intentional. Or is that just where he caught up with? Oh you know that's a good question. I don't know it'd be specula- nobody knows right now. I don't know Gosh. All we can ask him. He'll tell us and then be free squawk on your closer right. That goes right down or it goes right down. Nothing good is going to happen. It's like what seventy three feet this gone then to that was gone then too so you know for the. I mean if those would have been my girls I would've found out the crosses I'd say hey what are you thinking? What are you thinking? We talked to a lot of people who have crossed the bridge. Who say the first time they crawled that to her? Piper of that too. But I've also talked to people who've ridden ATV's across this. Oh my gosh. Do you think that libby took that video intentionally. Because she was concerned or she already recording video when he approached me she thought she could do to identify who this person is. I want to thank you for that one day. Yeah Yeah I think she realized something's really badly wrong forever. I don't know why we don't know what led up to that. We don't know what interaction there was. We know a little bit more than what we have talked about. But there's a lot of detail now engagement that we don't know can you put a percentage on? How much of the story you feel? You understand now Thought about that before. That's a that's a tough question. That's a tough question. We knew a lot about before. And after but there's a lot about the middle that we don't know so I would. I would say two thirds of what a third in the middle and makes the beginning and the end makes sense. Became out here a lot of pictures and it's really cool. We have a lot of really cool. Trails end-all fight that are really fun to explore and locks on? And it's really sad that we can't do that anymore without feeling safe here because we used to be able to in the day that you dropped off Libyan Abbey. You did see other kids out here right. Yeah other kids that were Luby's were here And I knew that a lot of my friends were out here so I knew it would be okay or thought it would be okay. So do you think this was the kind of place that on a day off from school that a lot of people might think there might be some kids or people out at the High Bridge? I'm sure people knew that there would be kids out here. Especially if you lived here you knew that people would go out and go on the trails. When they had a day off most of the time we would go during the summer and I would absolutely not want to cross it but I wouldn't let her go by herself so I would cross it because she wanted to. She wasn't afraid of crossing this bridge. Libby wasn't scared of anything except needles and anything that caused pain from the time. They're little feet. Hit that very railroad. Die Right there you know. They did what happened between here and there and then that initial engagement with the murderer. What happened so they were on the far end of this bridge? When Libby took that video and abby was still on the bridge you've said before you think that maybe he knew this area well enough to know that's a very vulnerable place over there Why well the bridges really scary? And I wouldn't cross it. Had I not known what it looks like and so if you don't know what it looks like then you would. You wouldn't know how vulnerable you are when you're on it so I definitely think he took advantage of how vulnerable they were there at the moment. What do you say to the people who are frustrated? It hasn't happened yet. Understand Ogden say understanding people but I I understand I understand. Do anything you do anything to help. People closest chapter one of the things that we kind of talk about within a story is when you don't know what happens. Usually the simplest explanation is is what happened when we find out what happened here. Do you think it's going to be simple? Is it going to be the simplest explanation? I don't think so. That's just my own personal opinion Because it's it's just complex. Knits from from what happened down there to what happened over. There is complex. And there's not a simple explanation you know if I mean if if you and I were standing on this push me off and I died simple explanation right or I jumped simple explanation. Tragic misapplication at this part three between here and there so now you have a good chunk of the picture over these last few hours. You've heard what happened. You've heard the information. The police want you to know in some of what they probably don't. We've given you the lay of the land and brought to the trails themselves. You know what it's like to stand on that bridge from here on out. It's all about the puzzle. There are a lot of theories and speculation that begin to work their way into this story because of the geography who came and went from where and how a lot of that has to do with the places we've already shown you and talked about in the places where about to bring you now. This is important though. None of this theorising or speculating is coming from the police. It's from everyone and everywhere else. Family friends locals journalists the Internet for drew and Dan Their first time exploring the area brought many many questions. It probably has for you to. Let's get back in the car and work through some of them when I was GONNA ask is. Do we know if there's any thought to where the perpetrator began to walk on the trail? That's the million dollar question. Nobody knows where he came from and nobody knows where he went to when he was done. All we know is that he was on the bridge because we have video of that. Nobody knows where he came from where he left to. And there are so many possibilities. Did he walk here? Did he come from one of these properties and simply walk? Was he a trucker who perhaps stopped on the hoosier highway and found a way into the trails from there? Was He parked at this abandoned? Cps building and out for a walk. Apparently that was an area that people would sometimes leave their car if they were out here. Walking closer to the actual crime saver. Yes so it's fifty yards from here from this. Pr fifty yards Towards the Creek if the maps lineup. It should be this far line of the cemetery here. Should match up if you were able to do a straight line down. Fifty Yard shuts down here. So it's down there yes. Zero has always been there. I believe it happens and you can see if you did go this way. This would not necessarily be an easy walk out enough to hear them right with their sensing. Just also I mean the. The forest is very thick. Here of the ground is very uneven. There's trees it a fall lenders ravines that was also the problem that the searchers have their out here at night this area would be relevant as his point of Egress. Perhaps well one theory is that if this is a person who's local who knows this area. Well a lot of people come here and hunt and fish and he may know multiple ways in and out of this area. I think one theory early on was that perhaps it was somebody who had access to Ron. Logan's property since the girls were found on his property and that maybe it was somebody from there who went down. Apparently Ron Logan has horses and is kind of known in town is a guy who lets people come and hang out on his property and ride his horses. Perhaps let's people hunt on his property that kind of thing so there. There are young guys who come to his property on a regular basis and everybody in these farms and like in those silos and grain silos over their employees all been questioned as far as we know there is also somewhere over to our right west of east rather of where we're located there is a meat packing facility and apparently cops went there and checked everybody out there because also one of the theories. Is THAT THE VIDEO? That libby took with her phone. The man is wearing a blue jacket. Did some people say looks like a Work Jacket? Especially if you work in a plant where there's cold storage and right back you give me etc right. And some people believe. He was dressed too heavily for the day because the weather was rather warm and he's in a appears to be a heavy jacket with a hoodie underneath. Some people also think that perhaps he was just hiding things in his clothing. Perhaps kill kit for weapons of some sort gropes. Whatever he thought he might have. This is the direction that Jerick drove to come and pick up the girls. And there's a bridge just a few minutes down here and that's where he was when he made the first call at three eleven to say almost there at liberty did not answer. You can see bits of the creek down here you can see how steep some areas of this are there are areas that flattens out A lot of people have asked about the area where the man sat down the hill and how steep is that what police have told me that it was walkable. It's a little on the steep side but it's not something that you would have fallen down at something. You could have locked down. Trump's thirty video two you're fishing we don't know they're probably were I know that searchers and family members have said that they came to begin searching. They did see people who were just out enjoying the day. Hiking walking. Taking pictures was warm. It was warm day of the winter. Right people want to get outside and yes it was sunny. The Sun was out. People were excited about spring and wanting to get out and deer creek from what I understand is a very popular place to fish very popular. Game Other Bridge. Yes which which virtually walking we started. It is tough to tell. The belief is that when libby took the video that she was on the far end. The South Eastern end of the bridge entered nurturing which walking away from where they came in of yes and that that part of the bridge is the Well as Kelsey says. She thinks that he knew they were trapped there that once. They're on the far end of the bridge. There's very few places to go. It's it's not the same as on the the front end of the bridge. That's part of the official walking trail the far end of the bridge. There's no trail there. There's no path you're supposed to turn around and come back. He directed them down the hill. It's dispute killer often returns inside of the Kim and I'm just wondering if the reese sticks out everybody Wildlife Canyon. I imagine they have There are a lot of people who think that perhaps this killer stayed around to see what was going to happen. As people discovered that these girls weren't they were supposed to be that maybe he even blended into one of the search parties or the return to the crime as a searcher right either. He came back and participated in a search or perhaps stayed participated in the search and was able to leave that way undetected through lose like this. That don't have a is that the killer often revisit that same again and again and again this reliving every relitigate is news is on gratification. And this entire area is very popular with hunters. People fishing so we would be easy for somebody to return and detected on him As you just heard the more you see the more you learn the more questions you find. That's one of the frustrating things about this case. There are parts of this mystery. That just don't add up or make sense and as you try to pull it together. All you have are brief moments flashes of what happened and where you know. They're important. You know they connect but you don't know how and just as you feel you have it figured out that you have a hold of it. It slips away soon though. Investigators will give us a lot more to think about but the complete picture. Who did this? What happened out there? And how is it not solved? That will remain just out of reach next time on down. The Hill on the subject of pictures were slipping back into the stories time line. We're finally you study that phase and you look at the schedule and you look try to think about how old they are and and you know trying to make try and make some connection a face. What's the the first lesson you learn in science for every action? There's an equal opposite reaction. So that's our I think our in our makeup as human beings we're trying to justify to rationalize well this happened so this what is the cause. What's what's over here. What's the action that caused well you? That doesn't work with evil. And just doesn't what police will release is the action to just take somebody your neighbor somebody you don't like or somebody found online and you think it looks like the sketch. We don't allow that and the reaction. That's its own story down. The Hill is written and produced by Barbara McDonald Andrew. Aydin me Tan seventeen with original music and scoring by chevaux Sir and production support from associate producers. Michael Dudley entailing chassis. If you want to see the people places and things we're talking about visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT COM. Brian Bell is H. L. Ed Senior Director of programming and Tyler Moody is the vice president of the Warner media. Podcast network Sherry sell. These is our senior production manager. A LOT OF FOLKS AT H. O. Annon CNN worked very hard to help. Make this show go and we wanted to give a big thanks to them to also a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this cry. I most important of all we want to thank you for listening. We hope you join US next time.

Delphi libby Creek Ron Logan Ron Abby Williams Libby Sister Kelsey German High Bridge Monan High Bridge Google Deer Creek Julia Dan Their MON high bridge official atip libby German Freedom Bridge James whitcomb Riley
What You'll Hear

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

06:14 min | 1 year ago

What You'll Hear

"What's the one thing you've never told anyone people just like you tell all in a podcast called the secret room if you're a true story fan and you cannot not get enough of people's most intimate dreams desires in shame. You will love the secret. Room like meals deathbed confession that our daughter's absent father there is a movie star. I wish I could tell someone who the father is. While I'm still on earth. Were Jen secret. Love affair with a man on death. Row It's tearing my world upside down and something thing. He just has devastated me or the way that Joey falls in love with inanimate objects I know people who were in relationships with construction equipment. People all around you carry the most amazing secrets. You're invited to the secret room for a front row seat to spectacular stories. That will touch you jar you now. I'm Ben Ham your host search for the secret room. A podcast about the stories. No one ever tells Drew Aydin McDonald and we are the hosts of the a new podcast from H. L. N.. Down the hill. The Delphi murderers and barb. I think it's important for us to kind of tell the folks that are going to be listening to this podcast. The real goal here here is to tell the story of this horrible horrible thing that happened in Delphi and do it through the voices and the people of the town of the community and really give a sense of what it was like to live through such a horrible horrible crime. And you're going to hear from friends and family members of both Abigail Williams and Liberty German. who were murdered in two thousand seventeen and it's still unsolved and we got an opportunity to go to? Delphi a couple of times and talk to the people who as you said lived this experience and some of them have never given interviews before some of them. This is the very first time they've ever spoken publicly about what happened to Abbey and Libby and one of the things that we did was we got to walk parts of the crime scene with some of the family only and investigators and in this clip. You're going to hear superintendent. Doug Carter of the Indiana state police. He is the state's top law enforcement official. And here's a little bit of what he said. During one of those trips we're approaching the bridge. Now what do do you see as you look at it him. I seem standing right out. There can seem standing right out there. Feel the same way every time I come here. Gosh Dang it looked back this way. You'll see them walking. Doing the girls. Do it was pretty. That was a really powerful visit to walk the same path that abby and libby walked with an investigator and to hear what he thinks of the area very powerful stuff. It's hard to listen to superintendent. Carter Carter in any of his conversations about this case and these girls and not be powerful. It is incredibly clear from the jump that this case is is something that has stuck with him from the moment he got to Delphi in two thousand seventeen. He says it's the one that will never leave him. That when he closes his is is at the end of the day. This is the one he's thinking about. And it should also be noted over the course of this podcast for not GonNa try to solve this crime that is for the authorities to to do. But we're going to do is try to make some sense of it because there's a lot of layers here. There's a lot of speculation. There's a lot of theories and so we're going to try to make some sense of what happened in this town. And you mentioned some of the conversations we had you know I remember one of the ones that jumps out to to me is a conversation. We had with Carrie Tim. That's that's libs mother and she had. We sat with her for two plus hours and had a very long chat with her her and she said a lot of really really profound things but one of the things that jumped out at me when she talked about the first time she went to the Monin High Bridge after her daughter's murder. Here's what she said about that. And I walked past and I walked to the bridge and I kind of knelt down like right on the edge. The bridge is still on the grind. But there is someone had drawn a rainbow or something on the bridge and it said something about the girls and I was just kind of I really was I was I was a mess. It stopped raining kind of like the sun came just a little bit through the cloud I can do. I wanted to go across that bridge. I took three steps and I just felt sick. I couldn't do it so you can hear the emotion in her voice and she is just one of many like that over the course of this. This podcast that Joe here and you know we're asking these folks to talk about some of the some of the worst experiences of their life but it really is important to do that in order to get an idea and a better understanding inning of the story and how these people experienced it. So starting February fifth you'll be able to hear your down the hill the Delphi. Murders this H. Allen's first original podcast. You'll hear it in this space on this feed. Wherever you get your podcasts. You can also go to down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM. Not only to hear the podcast but also to see maps and photos and a lot of bonus material AH.

Delphi superintendent Libby investigator Monin High Bridge Carter Carter Abigail Williams Jen Drew Aydin McDonald Doug Carter Ben Ham Joey Indiana Joe Carrie Tim H. Allen H. L. N Abbey murder
Chapter 7: Madness

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

44:42 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 7: Madness

"To get a look at the people in places we're talking about in this show and to find out how you can call or email in atip visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT COM fifty sketches. Not a photograph sketches. What we think is is a likely rendition. Composite Human being is not a photograph. I can look at both of them in print both together. I can see them. I can see them both together. And that's what I think. This person probably looks like it's not a photograph. Now remember we have a photograph of the neck down. That's where somebody knows who this is. I always think about that now with with them with my own family or with other people. You Think Dana somebody if you if you if we put a bag on your head. Somebody knows whose body that is and we have his voice and we have stride never in my lifetime. Did you have all three? And we still this monster mystery. I'm Andrew Aydin and I'm Barbara McDonald in our previous chapters. We focused on the first few months of the investigation and learned about the what and the where and to a certain extent the WHO and how starting now we move into a new era of the story. This one is all about that who it's late. June two thousand seventeen and there's been no arrests in the killings of libby German and Abby Williams. That's crazy I mean Doug Carter even said at the top of the show. There's a video with audio of the suspect. At this point there's also global media attention dedicated Internet sleuths and an almost two hundred fifty thousand dollar reward all that added up to seemingly nothing from this point on we start moving through time at a much faster rate and that starts with something. Police have been sitting on something that will send this case and the people who follow it into pure madness. Police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared announcement that the girls have been found not to a good end. We are investigating this as a trying. Seen we suspect foul play law enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. We have we have a still photograph. We HAVE SOUND. We own this person as it could be half the white males and Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely have interview. We know that this is about power to you. You want to know what we know. One day you will. This is down the hill. The DELPHI murders a part. One gas stations in grocery stores looking at everybody in thinking about that sketch in your head. I think all of us here have that first drawing burned into our minds in so anywhere you go. You're always thinking about okay. Could that be that person? Five months after this horrible crime. We finally see the face of the man police are looking for. A composite. Sketch was released in mid-july without much fanfare. They sent it out via press release and this is really where the rampant speculation picks up about. Who may have done this here? Sergeant Kim Riley remember. He's the spokesperson for the Indiana State. Police we feel. This is very important because it actually gives a better view of the the per person in the picture that you see down below Shows a little more facial features. Gives you a little more information on what's We're looking at who the suspect might be and that's why we feel. It is a very important of his pictures out there at this time. When he says a better view of the person you see down below physically when he was speaking to the media the picture on the floor beneath the sketch was the picture of the man on the bridge. Right so they are linking the man on the bridge to the sketch and obvious connection. Yes so now that you have the context of this release. Let's talk about what the sketch actually looks like. Because it's detailed it is. It's pretty DJ. We heard superintendent. Carter say at the beginning of this chapter. That sketches not a photograph but the sketch. Kinda looks like a photograph. It's not in color but you see a a white man who appears to be in his forties or maybe a little bit older. He's wearing a cap that has been described. As what a newsboy cab or even perhaps a Greek fishing cab one of those flatter hat. Yeah and he's got some scruffy hair that sticks out underneath that CAP. He's also got a goatee. He's not clean shaven. He's wearing what appears to be a brown Hoodie and he looks like he has darker is do. We know as far as the sketches concerned how sketch came to be. They say that it came from information from tips that they had received and from people who were in the area of the bridge around the time the girls were there so they don't actually call them witnesses but it certainly houses. That's what we're dealing with here. So this sketch. What it did was as you mentioned set off a flurry of speculation flurry of conversation. And you know at the center of all this. You still have to families who are also looking at the sketch trying to figure out what it means. It was really interesting to see a face with the body that we had. You probably recognize Kelsey Germans voice. She's libby sister. We knew what his walk kind of looked. I can what he looked like physically but we didn't know what his face looks like. And so putting a face with it was very eye-opening Emmett really real and it made it so that there was a person we had to look for rather than a voice that we had to look for. Did you recognize face? I didn't recognize it although I do think there are a lot of similarities in them In the face it did look a lot familiar. A lot of the characteristics in it you can see them in half the people you walk by street so when I look at it and like oh it could be this person or it could be that person but really it could be anybody so that was kind of something. I was struggling with trying to figure out Who This person could be in why it looks familiar to me. Remember Pastor Todd Lad. He leads Delphi's United Methodist Church. I've not sketch. Oh that could be. The other thing is the reality is it could be half the white males and Carroll County and so I don't get ahead this sense of dread or I'll say here's who it is but there's also the acknowledgement that you look around and that's that's half the white males in Carroll County of a certain age that could look that way Diane Erskine Abby Williams. Grandmother looks at the face in the sketch and tries really really tries to make some sense of what happened out there. New Study that phase. And you look at the schedule and you look try to think about how old they are and and you know trying to make try and make some connection. I you know what's the the first lesson you learn in science for every action. There's an equal opposite reaction so off. That's our I think. Our in our makeup is human beings. Were trying to justify to rationalize. Well this happened so this what is the cause. What's what's over here. What's the action that caused you? That doesn't work with evil. It just doesn't There is no justification. There is no rationalization for this act. I don't know what the motivation is if there even was a motivation. I I don't know because it's evil. It's and it's deceiving and it's comes to kill and steal and destroy and so there's just it's not a it's not a mindset that we have but as humans we want to know what caused it. Do you think he's local? I don't honestly do not have opinion about that. It's hard enough to go to the gas station in the grocery store and and drive down the road. You see him walking by the road and look at them in wonder but anywhere in wonder I don I honestly I don't have a thought did they. Are they are not asleep? I really don't for sadie malady. Remember she lives cousin. The release of the sketch for the first time made this killer not just a killer but a person a person that might live down the street from her. So when the sketches? The first sketch came out. Did you recognize that face still to this day on phone okay? Rain here Still to this day. It makes me sick to my stomach. I get a not in my throat when I hear the voice or see the picture or I just I don't know why just that's what happens face of evil. Yeah the first four or five months I had to have. My husband walked me to the car every morning. I wouldn't go outside when it was dark outside just in fear but a in the back of my mind. I don't think it would happen at night. This was something that happened during the day but I was just so scared. It's changed a lot of people here. not only in our family circle but the whole town they were in fear. This would never happen here. I mean there's three stoplights in town but it then so now we all have changed not just one person. We have all changed for Becky. Patty Libya's grandmother. She had for the first time someone to look for in town a real actual live face. There's been times that you see somebody. It just looks a lot like this sketch and I can't stop myself. Tara and I were at a stop light one time and both of us and the person felt uncomfortable and I mean how new Feld it a steering so hard they turned and looked at is. But we couldn't help you can't help yourself he stare. You look you skiing or room. You scan anywhere you are you go to a restaurant you're sitting there and you're looking while you're carrying on your conversation. You're looking at work. We're on the road you look I keep thinking I I have a job that I'm out and about a lot and you think oh only if only I could see him. What would you do heavy a tough one? Well I WANNA make sure we get the right person so I definitely call nine one one. I would not be Palin. I really thought it was the person I'd be calling nine one. One Sheriff Tobe Lazenby. Has Anybody walked into your office to say. I look like the sketch. I want to clear my name. Here's my DNA that has occurred. A lot is a lesson five times that I remember but yeah it has happened and by the same token have there been people that you've gone to check out and said give us some DNA in their leg. I'll pass this about that. And then that's where our our investigators pursue a research work there are prosecutor presented that way legally says anybody wanted DNA from that. You haven't gotten it. No one comes to mind eventually. We do a this. Is something that you do not see normally in murder cases people volunteering their DNA. You know if if you Kinda like that sketch in your in this small town I can see the appeal of wanting the sheriff to say no no no. I already checked him out. And we're good but one of the problems with this case also is there is no public list anywhere of people who have been cleared so those people who walked in and said clear me. We don't necessarily know who they are. And that leaves local conjecture which becomes kind of the gasoline on the fire as it were of this case and the rumor mill. You know the sketches released to help find the killer and help this case. It's actually having an adverse effect yet actually complicates things and that's still kind of an issue. Today this is also the beginning of a new phase of this story where the finger pointing the accusations against anybody who even resembles that sketch or doesn't or doesn't really takes off and becomes problematic down. The Hill is supported by better help online counseling. Sometimes Life's tough for me you. Everyone could all use help in those down moments but may not know how or where to ask for it. You need to know you're not alone. You're really not better. Help is available for you. They offer licensed counselors who specialize in the issues many of us struggle with like depression anxiety stress complicated relationships problems sleeping grief trauma in anger. Stresses a big one for me and better help gives me a place where I can talk to someone when I need to keep track of how I'm feeling you can connect privately with a counselor through text chat phone video calls and get help on your own time at your own pace at affordable rates and if you happen not to click with the professional. You're working with you can opt for a new one at no additional charge. Better help is committed to finding the right person to give you the right. Help down the hill listeners. Get ten percent off their first month with Discount Code. D T H. That's better help dot com slash D T H. Why not get help? Better help dot com slash t t h true crime. Podcast Sir all I listen to. I'm hooked on the suspense drama. The mystery the puzzle solving but when I need a break from the intensity and WanNa do something Fun and light. I opened up this mobile game. I love called best scenes. It's a strategy and puzzle game where the main goal is to clear boards of colored stuff. I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with it so much as deeply in lake with it playing it from ten minutes now and again while watching TV. When I don't want to get out of bed in the morning as a break from work while installing for making my kids lunches waiting for takeoff on the airplane okay. Maybe I'm a little obsessed. There's a lot to the game actually. In addition to clearing boards you also collect adorable characters who have special abilities and strengths. The stronger you can make your characters the more valuable they are to you in the game not just for clearing boards but in defeating the main saboteurs the slugs and just when you think you've mastered all there is to master the game updates and gives you entirely new challenges. Engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me with over a hundred million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play download best fiends free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the our best fiends. Part two sketches aren't photos tying us up on false leads and innuendos is not something we want. We want actual facts but what information is going to help us not hurt. Somebody else's cried or their dignity or or embarrass a family because you think he's the killer. Let us make that decision. That's what we're here for barb. We're going to hear a lot about side by sides which what those are will come into. Focus here shortly but essentially the sketch next to some random photo from somebody in town. Yeah this is where people start taking this sketch that's been released and posting it on social media to facebook to read it to twitter wherever blogs their own private blog basically everywhere and what they're doing is going through people's facebook profiles and finding photos of people who kind of looked like the sketch and then going look here. This man lives in Delphi or doesn't and he looks like the sketch so you have random people being picked by other random people as a possible suspect. This is something police. Do not want to see happen. Investigators say it over and over. Please don't do this please. Don't send them to us. What the sketches are for is people who know this person for them to start taking the things that they know maybe the things that don't make sense about the person's story for where they were the day this happened. Maybe there's some other things that aren't making sense and then the sketch comes out and they go. Gosh that kind of looks like my brother or my boss or my neighbor or whoever it is in a lot of the speculation as you might imagine lives on facebook and we spoke with a woman by the name of Janika combs who is a moderator of one of these facebook groups that is dedicated to this case. Because it's such a big part of this story. We thought it was important to talk to her. And kind of get some perspective on what these groups are doing. How they're helping or hurting the case the discussion. How they kind of keep the discussion on the road. And genyk is tasked with that. And she lives in Indiana not far from Delphi has gotten to know some of the people involved in this story and as moderator one of her roles is to make the rules for the groups that she moderate and one of the things that's important to her is to not do side by sides side by sides as the number one rule in almost every group Some of them they allow it because they like the drama that brings but basically if law enforcement. I've said not to do it then. We try not to do that. So side by sides. If you're going to basically come up with a theory let people. It's your theory you know. Put in my opinion or this is what I believe. Don't put information out as fact unless you know. It's affecting back up. The Madness of rampant speculation continues on facebook twitter. Read it on Youtube everywhere really and by now you understand what we mean when we call this case an ink blot. I see what I see. Barb sees what she sees. And you see what you see. And it's like that for everyone for some weird shapes forming in that ink JANIKA. Combs has heard some Weird stuff what are some of the crazy theories that you've heard in these goodness? There's fifteen amish people under the bridge. There's a bridge guy is carrying a puppy in his jacket. Some of the theories are that it's local law enforcement out there and they're trying to cover up their own crimes or somebody else's family and they're trying to cover up for them so with our people simply guessing at what the girls lives like or like prior nobody in those groups not nobody but majority of the people in those groups didn't know the girls they still don't know them. They know what they've been told what they see. They don't really know how those girls were and a lot of stuff comes from trying to guess. Assume that they might have been a bad kid or they might have done something you know not necessarily to deserve it but to cause the actions of rich guy to move forward right so they sort of brought it on by by playing with fire so to speak a lot of the groups. It's an all of the groups but it's basically a a handful of people who want to continually blame. The family continually bring up backgrounds in the past and try to link everything together. Not Everything is the conspiracy. Not Everything can be linked. Sometimes people just do bad things those side by sides for Doug Carter the messages help. Don't hurt several this morning. And we're encouraged. People did not do side by sides. Because remember talking about somebody you know here. We've had a lot of people that have been targeted in this in really complicated their lives so we curse people be really really careful doing side by sides. Give us the name. Give us the address. Give us your thought. But don't do a side by side with a living human being makes sense and keep in mind that the sketches not photograph. It's a rendition of an approximate view. It is not digital photograph. We also talked to sketch artist Not One here in your state. Who said sketches really aren't for people who don't know the person right there for people who do I love that that's so true? Yes that's so true. It's true my problem is when you take somebody's picture and put it next to the drawing we had and say this is the guy and you have no idea who this person is or even if you do. Can you tie that person to Delphi? Here's Sergeant Kim Riley again. If you can't wire you even trying to make something out of nothing. You want to be the big the show so to speak. That's not what police work is all about it embarrasses that person for one especially if you put a name with it the next morning to have about six phone calls a hey Kim Riley. I understand that the murder of the two girls if you look at facebook. I don't WanNa be knows you know those phone calls. It really is the killer. Wouldn't that perhaps tip him off now. People are onto him. Yes he's going to change. His behaviors can change his looks. He's GonNa choose expression. Get Out of Dodge You know he's not gonNA hang around. Tell a Senate information does. Don't send it an input on facebook or put on facebook and then decide to send us because we're not. We look at facebook but we don't. That's not where we get our information. We get our information from the tip line and from the emails and preferably. We prefer the emails. It's the easiest way to do it. And that's the way we way we want it because we don't have time to go on and look at every facebook page and we and most people don't have that much time and you know when you're just because we're dealing with this case doesn't mean there's not five ten or fifteen other cases we're dealing with also this is also where we begin to see. The family members get caught up in this same cycle of these side by sides and people taking facebook images of them and saying Oh. This looks like this sketch or oh that looks like the sketch and that even caught up with Sadie mountie. Here's what she has to say about that. Some of them think they could actually solve this. Can you answer to their. Yeah dumb people in their facebook investigating. That's what we like to follow but they don't have legal authority to do anything so I don't understand why they think they can solve it. Somebody called the tip on my husband and my son is like a hundred and thirty five pounds like no and we had a police officer down a table and asked my husband many many many questions and it was hurtful but we were open to tell him now. This is where we were. This is what we were doing because we had no shame to hide because we knew what we were doing and we would never want to do anything like that someone especially someone in my family of all things the COP was like. I don't know why this tip was called in but we have to follow up through this so her. Just GonNa ask you these questions. And if you're I might be back if something doesn't checkout and everything checked out fine. My husband work that day so not even sheriff. Tobe lesin be was immune from the accusations. My Name's been brought up three times in the whole process. What was the sheriff doing that day? Whether it's a personal issue that someone has against me our. I don't know where that you know. Where those three several times where that came from but as with everyone else the again Kudos to our investigators because they came to me. Sheriff tell you this but yeah and so like everyone else you know. That's exactly what they did. I mean they checked into the various individuals in our community. And Say Okay. You know what were you? Basically during this time period of February thirteenth two thousand seventeen. It seems like no one in Delphi is immune from being thrown into the conversation and for abby friend Eric Gibson. And her mom amy. It's starting to wear thin people talk without knowing anything People just want their five seconds of fame and that's all it comes down to you know. They want to throw out whatever they can to to get their name out there regardless of true regardless of her hurts. They just. They're they're selfish. They don't care about abby and libby their interest is just to be the one that caught the killer and to get that money. I mean that's all it comes down to. They don't have. They don't care all about dolphins down they don't care about the families you know. They just say they all bashes everybody on Gulf. I like every person. Adelphi is this Delphi. People are this and so we know. We're not that you know we come from a town by not bad. You know. We've never had violence like this. I've grown up here my whole life. You know we've never had anything like this happened before and and you know everybody you know getting on law enforcement saying that they you know that they're corrupt and and they know what happened and all of us have. We don't believe that the people that live here we trust in our law enforcement which we trust that. They're doing everything they can. This doesn't happen here. They didn't know what was happening. You know like I would never blame them for for anything. Mike and Becky. Patty are united in this case on every front except one how to deal with the online community Mike says he and his wife in thirty years of marriage rarely disagree but through all the pain grief. This is the only thing they argue about. It doesn't bother me. It really doesn't because I know the truth is on my side. People can speculate and throw out all kinds of stuff from an innuendos when rumors. It's not gonNA change the facts. Remember right I live in a world of tax and data while I don't like for my family and everybody else to be able to see you know the the the speculation that people put out there. It really doesn't even when the wife and I feel I know it time she says how values because it doesn't. It's not the truth people out there that look. Look at this as as as Is GonNa look like as a case or I don't know how to how to say it for sure but if they would take all that energy that they spend and put it in a positive light that could truly possibly help the situation but you know and that's what I would ask people stop and think before you post before you do things. Is this really going to help? How how can I help the situation make it better not worse because all the you know the stuff that's been said about you know what self in the family doesn't that isn't providing any positively getting to a resolution here in as for seven the other things? I just think there's militias people out there too much time on their hands The only thing that worries me is that it's not just us but there's other people that that they could potentially ruin their lives. You know these people have done nothing. These are innocent people out. There's only one guilty person so all of these pictures all of these people that they're sharing you know they're all innocent. Maybe maybe one becky. I can't help but notice. You've obviously both suffered unspeakable but it's this thing or this part of the story about this kind of the draft of social media is the first time I've seen you visibly angry. I get very angry. There's been so many lies. Not Rumors lies brought out. There's been things private things that have been put out there. I shouldn't have been put out there. They have invaded things. That should have never invaded. This isn't entertainment. This is our lives so yeah I get varying. Because they they dirty Libya's memory It's pretty tough to hear. Becky patties say this is an entertainment. These are our lives any story like online. Trolls are everywhere everywhere. But we're still kind of taken aback. That people have to deal with that and some of the people who are behaving like trolls towards the family or people who do think that they're helping try to solve the case. It's a weird. Yeah it's a lot of drama Part three a world of facts and data. We don't need you know two thousand tips on on me. I mean I'm my name's been mentioned now. It took a while. Finally somebody put my name in there but I mean think about I mean we gotTa Think Your Folks. We gotta realize that putting somebody's picture on on facebook or or twitter or wherever you're putting it does not solve a crime. Let's talk about tips? Obviously important part of the story and investigators always say they're just one away from solving this case while they're asking the public for help the stream of side by sides theories and speculation resulted in a slew of new tips tens of thousands actually and right. Now as you're listening to this the number continues to grow police. Tell us they look at every tip that comes in now. Obviously there are a lot of duplicates and some are easily thrown out but each one is processed that takes resources that takes money. And that takes people sergeant Kim Riley. That's the information we were getting people or ex wives ex husband's You know ex lover's we were getting information on them just because you don't like him doesn't mean that they killed those two girls. Why do you think people do that? Just to cause a hassle for them. I mean because if we get a tip on you we're going to have to check into I mean we don't. We don't know where you were at that day. We don't know you were doing. So we're going to send somebody out or call a department in the area because some of these tips were coming from all over the country all over the world and we have people we we weren't gonNA transport guys all over the country to do. We have to call the locals departments in the area sheriff's Department or maybe even the FBI. I had to send out somebody. So it was was tying up time and and a Lotta precious time that we really didn't have not just your department over right. I hadn't thought about that. So if somebody sent in Tippett's drew is the person and you then you would have to call the Atlanta Police Department. Who would then have to track? Employer do have to basically vouch for if I was working that day or not. That's exactly what's thank you. That's if you weren't if you're out running errands then you gotta go then we go down people you talk to you in Atlanta on that day. You're not going to be in Delphi at at the station or on an errand to go. Get something and you were back in an hour with. That's going to cover you pretty good. But let's say you called in sick that day. Now we gotta go send somebody first of all. We sent him to your work to find out if you work that day. And they tell us no he was not there now. We've got to send somebody to your house to talk to you. And you're going DELPHI INDIANA. Where in the world is that? And now we've wasted your time. We've wasted the investigators time here to send the information to Lanna Tab Atlanta or the FBI. Whoever wants to do it tightens up an investigator for them to check on you. As the second anniversary of the crime approaches investigators decided to use the occasion to try and help people help them. This is Nick mcclelland. He's the district attorney and Carroll County and at the time newly elected we have put up today poster. Here this to my left now this is what the unified command believes. Makes a good tip. That doesn't mean if you don't have all this information that you don't call them the tip even if you don't have all this continued to call that tip in lead investigators take that tip and let them track down what they can from that tip so no tip is bad. Or irrelevant or unusable again. Information is our main weapon here. Here's what we do know. Thirty eight thousand tips. He's not discouraging them but he listed what is a good tip what the connections to Delphi. Maybe if you have a name if you know where they live but he is thanking. Everyone for what they're doing. And if you see something say something something that stood out to me when I was there February. Two Thousand Nineteen a week before the second anniversary was the crime scene. The bridge I was standing. There were something happened to these. Two Young Girls Avian Libby and to be there and look around and think what is it. What did they go through what happened? I'm here and I'm feeling that we're back here in the writer's Room at CNN center and we are joined by Italians. Susan Hendricks and bar. You and Susan did a lot of the reporting for the network in the you know in the early days of its coverage on this case and so. I wanted to ask you both Susan. We'll start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about your early impressions of this story kind of went across your radar and when you kind of jumped on the case when I heard Susan you're going to Delphi? I took a moment to remember what case this was. And then it clicked. I thought about libby hitting record on her cellphone. Then it came back to me what case this was two young girls in. Delphi murdered unsolved. And I'm going with Barbara and let's just say Barbara and I got to know each other very well right away. You're bonded in this small town. You meet the families you see where this horrific crime took place and you feel completely different. The family was very open very welcoming and it was feelings that I've never felt covering a story before because you felt you like these people you. They were gracious. Then you see where this took place and they tell their stories and it's unsolved so it's a combination of so many feelings in the small town of Delphi. Barbara NEWER WITH SUSAN. Knew that you know when you grab a bag and go jumping gazer story. Whatever logistics but in terms of the actual story what was? What was that early kind of feeling like in town? We encountered a lot of really wonderful people who wanted to share the story and were appreciative of media. Attention to get the facts of the case out there knowing that they needed help to get this solved and sort of our early entry into the story was via Kelsey German Liberty Sister In early twenty nine she had really sort of taken off with her social media advocacy for this case. And that's what got my attention and saying maybe we should go and meet these people and see if we could use our platform to give them some help in getting awareness. And so that's what we did and we spent just a couple of days on the ground it was very cold but the graciousness of everyone we encountered. You know we sat at the same table. Were Libby sat with her family and had meals. Becky prepared a hot lunch for us. Which was really wonderful because I think that was the only meal we had that day. We were running around so much. But you go there and you you walk alongside these families. You can't help but pick up this story and it becomes part of your heart to you. Can't let it go. You guys were there. Two years after the murder was their feeling of optimism. Or you know positively about an arrests or any kind of resolution when we were at ladies home and Becky made us that meal. I was thinking as Barbara mentioned in that kitchen picturing libby sitting around the table. That was her home. She was there They were very open talking. About what type of Girl Libby was? What Abbey was like not much talk about an arrest or the sketch was mentioned in the kitchen in Libya's home walk into Tobe Lesson B.'s. Office the Sheriff and I see the sketch and I see the person who did this at least a sketch of him and see that it's torn and ripped a little and I'm looking around his office and that's when it hit me that wow this is almost two years to the day and this is not soft and this is a small town and this guy is still out there and this case is still front and center. I mean he's got the pictures up his office everywhere. You go in town. There's pictures of the girls or the sketch of the suspect with the information about how to call an tip and bar. That's when you got a text message. I did one afternoon here at work. Got A text message. From what am I? Sources saying can't tell you why but you need to be in Delphi on Monday. It was Easter weekend and Susan. And I immediately booked our airfare and I got a text from Barbara saying we're going back to Delphi and I thought so soon after. This is big. This is huge. I have no idea though. Just how big would be. And what a sharp turn this case would take. Barbara have used the words. Big Big moment sharp turn. We've used them multiple times in this case but there is none that is perhaps bigger or sharper of turn than the one that occurred two months later directly to the killer may be in this room. We believe you are hiding in plain sight for more than two years. You never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have in our next chapter. There's a new direction a totally new direction down the hill written and produced by Barbara McDonald. Dan Semet ovatch and me. Andrew Aydin with original music and scoring by Shuo Sir and production support from associate producers. Michael Dudley and Kaylene Chiasson. Cherry Selby's is our senior production manager. If you WANNA see the people places and things we've been talking about visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT COM. Brian Bell is h senior director of programming and Tyler Moody is the vice president of the Warner media. Podcast network a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime and most important of all a big thanks to you. We appreciate you listening.

Delphi facebook Becky patties investigator Girl Libby Carroll County Doug Carter murder Abby Williams Susan Hendricks Barbara Kim Riley Andrew Aydin Barbara McDonald Patty Libya Indiana State sadie Indiana
Chapter 4: Three Words

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

49:16 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 4: Three Words

"To get a look at the people in places we're talking about in this show and to find out how you can call or email in a tip. Visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT com when you hear the clip down the hill. What does that do to? You makes me sick literally. Hate those words hate those words and Crazy three works can just really disrupt thirty minutes. That's all it will take to disrupt this case and everything we know about the information we're about to get. It's not a lot but it's the most police have ever released about what happened out there that day. It will make this murder case unique. We're about to get a brief glimpse into abby and Libya's final moments to imagine what they saw and what they felt that's different. That's what separates this one from all the others. What happened before and after that small look has hatched thousands of theories. One thing. Everyone can agree on though. Is the fact that on this day. February twenty-second two thousand seventeen thirty minutes. We'll set the tone for everything to come are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared the amount that the girls have been found not to a good end. We are investigating this as a trying. Seen we suspect foul play law enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. We have we have a still photograph. We have sound this person as it could be half the white males and Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely interview. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. One day you will. This is down the hill. The Delphi murders. We are back here at C. N. N. Center in the writer's room. I'm drew Ayden and I'm Barbara. Mcdonald's we want to say thanks to you folks for joining us as we kind of walked through the story line here of what happened in Delphi and what we know right now. Is that two girls Abigail Williams Thirteen and Liberty German. Fourteen have been murdered and we know they were walking on a bridge shortly before those murders and in the wake of that some photos have emerged. There's two snapchat photos Abbey on the bridge. And then one of the bridge itself and then there's two of a man grainy pictures of a man on the bridge. We don't know when that day. We don't really have any specifics. But he the pretty spooky wells and know that there is a search warrant that was served on a home just outside of town. It didn't seem to yield anything. There were no arrests. And then there's been no arrests anywhere else in town either so we're essentially at zero. It appears from an investigative standpoint but at the same time the story is growing in terms of interest across the country and beyond this is already the biggest news story in the State of Indiana. It is quickly growing as a national story and international story. People WanNa know who is the man in that picture on the bridge. What did he see? What does he know is he the guy who did this as we go through this journey together? We're trying to answer the the big questions. Who did this? What the Hell happened out there that day? And how hasn't this been solved yet? And in any case like this. There's inevitably moments in an investigation where things pick up speed and pick a momentum and as we move forward in the story. We're going to get those. Today is one of those days. We are going to begin to see some evidence. We're GonNa hear clip of audio. That is going to completely ratchet up the craziness factor on this story dialogue. We do have breaking news tonight. In the murderers of two teenagers in Indiana Liberty German and Abigail Williams went missing last week after going hiking their bodies were found the next day and for the past week. We have been looking at this image and image of a man officers. Call the prime suspect in the case and new tonight. We are hearing for the very first time. Three words muttered by an unknown man in the vicinity of those two girls on that day to day is when libs phone really takes center stage. We find out that not only did police find it. But there's evidence on that phone that she recorded for us the video that has become the jumping off point for a million theories. It's the centerpiece of this story. The X. factor that whenever I have told someone about this case they inevitably say. Oh that's the case of the girls on the bridge and the video of the guy and it's it's creepy to think of two girls being on a bridge and recording their killer. I think the natural next question after the discovery of this video is how much is on the phone. What else is on there? That can kind of connect the dots of what happened out there. And how much of it are they gonNa let us see and barb? When we sat down with Sergeant Kim Riley he actually told us about learning of that video. I myself learned within probably twenty four hours. I'm going to say something like that so sometime late in the afternoon or the next day. I'm not sure The exact time like I said it's been a couple years ago but I knew pretty early. What they had and we were trying to decide what we could do with it and what we wanted to do with it. I can't remember the exact date of when we released the photo. Maybe within the first two weeks I'm not sure actually. I think it was a little bit more than that because I was actually getting ready to go on a vacation like the first of March so this case was still to only two weeks old when I left right. I WANNA go back to the video for a moment Have you seen the whole video? Yes obviously without telling us the parts that you don't WanNA release. Can you tell us what that's like to watch that video? There was scary. I guess would be one way to put it just seeing Just seeing the feelings that we're going through the girls at the time I'm not going to say which one in particular but just knowing that I you know just knowing what they knew is is frightening for thirteen or fourteen year old girl to know and I just think just kind of went through my mind over and over again for a long time every now and then I'll I'll think about it but for the first six eight months I mean it was something I was going through for all the time I was always thinking about it. It was just very heart wrenching for an adult to deal with that alone. Thirteen and fourteen year old girl. It was scary. It was I felt so sad. There was nothing I could do. But that's that's the way it is now. Unfortunately we're not. There are kids all the time and sometimes bad things happen. I guess that's the only way I can explain it a few days into the investigation. Sheriff Tobe Lesin be also saw that video and understood immediately the importance of what they found. Do you recall when you found out that. There was a video that libby had taken. I get it may have been that same day or possibly the next day was again. Long after the initial information came in to us but The initially that was safeguarded very closely. Did you watch the video that early in the process as I recall woods I would say it was just a matter of days and when I say days maybe no more than a couple of days into it that I had the opportunity to review it and I know there's stuff in that video that you're not releasing publicly. Can you talk a little bit about that? Process of watching that video and what that was like early on like Minneapolis in our leadership roles and in many of commonsense them and the Mike. Patty and I've even talked about him but for Libby to have that mindset to to be able to do what she did In my mind I thought you know. She's she's helping here. She's she's telling us something and and obviously as time where long we've we've found out what she was telling us and so when. I first saw it. I guess knowing you know. She's at the age that she is at that point. I'm thinking based she sharp. I mean this is great. You know I you know. It's all Kudos to her for what she did there. I think it was definitely felt it to be a huge asset. And what you know. We we continue to do here and follow into and so and I still feel like at the end of the day so to say that it's still going to be a plus to have that on board when you heard the voice what went through your mind. My initial thought was that. Satan's voice himself I'm very spiritual man. So that was my exact thought that that's the devil himself speaking. Do you listen to people when you're walking around town when you're sitting in restaurants you listening for that voice all not so much during right now but yes in the beginning and again as we revisit as as more so my investigators than me but We Revisit Certain Aspects Yon and there are times that I will go back actually on my weekends and I'm at home sitting in my lazy boy. I've been known to start up that audio again. Listen to it and go stat. Eight days after they found the video and Libya's phone. Investigators held a news conference. That even now is one of the stories. Most critical moments there are public knowledge and Thomas introduced today. Couple folks department heads that are here. We have Delphi. Mayor Shane Evans Carroll County Prosecutor. Rob Is Kiro County. Sheriff TOBE LESSON. Be Delphi police. Chief Steve Mullen Indiana State Police Superintendent. Doug Carter Doug Carter. You've heard his voice throughout this podcast. He started every chapter. He's State Police Superintendent. He's the boss. He was raised in Indiana and has a degree in management and leadership and after eighteen years as a state trooper was elected twice a sheriff of Hamilton County Indiana. His Dad was a state trooper and his daughter is a police officer. Doug Carter is law enforcement twenty four seven. He's a passionate speaker and you may even think he's a little extra impersonal. Though in a way from cameras he is exactly the same. He's powerful and deliberate with his words and he's taking responsibility. Gore bad for whatever happens in this case and the public facing portion of that begins on February twenty. Second two thousand seventeen at this news conference words ten escape during these periods of times. And I've only had a couple of other situations in my lifetime when able to stand before you and say that. Why Libby Abby why Delphi why? Carol County why the region why the state and why even in the nation I say that because this is a classic example in a clear example that evil lives amongst us to the family of the community the region. The state as Lear Indiana state. Police I say I am so very sorry resources. It's unlikely that any of you will ever see nor will we ever see or experience again. The level of resources that are attached to this investigation to the media. My Gosh all I can say. Give you my sincere. Thanks see. This isn't like TV. There's a perception that this can be solved very quickly. Anything that we do can be solved very quickly. This is a testament that that it can't and we need you. We've needed you since last week. We need you today. We need you tomorrow and likely we'll need the media all across the nation so for simple guy like me to you. I say thank you to the People Dress. Funny like me. And those who represent the law enforcement profession please understand where human beings just like you extend anywhere in the nation with people standing behind me and I would suggest to you that every time something like this happens a little piece of dies as well but I also want you to understand how committed we are as as a collective one and we will continue. I've had an opportunity to speak to my boss. Governor Air Kokomo a couple different times about this situation and every time I do I see this. Look that comes over his face just like yours and this communities. And that's that's the unfortunate experience of experiencing evil not stopping the poster in front of you. Someone knows who this individual is. Someone knows who this individual is. Is it a family member? Is it a neighbor? His an acquaintance is an associate. Are Maybe that one guy that lives over at that one place that just kinda not right. Maybe it just jeans. Maybe it's his jacket or sweatshirt. Maybe it's a shirt tail. Maybe it's just posture. Maybe it's the right hand in his pocket you see even with technology. We need human intelligence in other words. We need you. I'm not suggesting that science that everything that we can do is science has been done because we are just getting started. Abby deserve US each and every person listening watching horsing this in some form we need you Libyan. Abby need you. Please do not rationalize tips away rationalize what you think. That might not be important away by thinking he would never do that to another human. Being or think I know doesn't matter let folks like the people that are standing behind me. Which such incredible passion and commitment and dedication to this profession make that determination tips are anonymous. Some minority talk about it. Because I don't WANNA get involved. Because they know the individual again maybe a family member probably family. No one will ever know. No one will ever know. There's no names on the planet better than than helping US facilitate this than the FBI and there's this entrenched in this as anybody. No one will know as poor as this picture is. Somebody knows if you're watching we'll find you who's next. I hate to ask you that question. I'd give my life to not have to but I know you've asked yourself that very question. We must recognize that you see. We're all the same. We're all human beings we must keep our resolve for Libyan abby for this community and frankly to ensure her that good trump's evil and it will hear quite hear more in just a minute about what we know. Do not discount the voice that you hear. We will stay committed with resolve. Their barely rarely exhibited with human behavior until this conclusion. Please be patient. Become our partners and communicate with us as often as you can. And now from very humble servant the symbols blessed guy on this planet to represent the profession that I represent to Abbey and libby. It's my hope. And my prayer. The experiencing God's promise of eternal peace. You would be hard pressed to find a law enforcement member anywhere. Who speaks with the passion? The tone and the focus of superintendent. Doug Carter of the Indiana state police. This guy is making it clear from here on out that the messaging from this investigation comes from one person and it's him and the optics of this presser. I think also feed into that because you have several men up there on the stage. They're all in their uniform with their badges. Carter is standing there at the podium with all of these men flanking him at the church is in it. Yes this is at the Delphi United Methodist Church. They needed a larger space. So Delphi doesn't have a lot of places re-invite the media in this was one of them and this is also when we begin to hear a bit of dialogue directly to the killer right. He speaks directly to the person responsible. We can speak all day long about the psychology of what he's trying to appeal to whether it's you know the guys sensibilities or sensitivities but he also says who's next. That's the first time we've gotten any inclination. That law enforcement has a feeling that? There's a possibility of a repeat offense here right earlier. There was some confusion over why they weren't telling people to be afraid now. They're asking who's next. It's a bit of a contradiction it is and it's a chilling question to now all of a sudden ripon during that. And you know we mentioned that this press conference was at the Church. He invokes religion to He. Does he talks about abby and Libyan eternal peace and this is a theme that we're going to see from Superintendent Carter throughout this story. Ah So everything begins with the Carter in this case and while he is establishing that dialogue you have to imagine that they are starting the process of putting a picture of a profile together. That's right that's the FBI's role they've been on scene since the beginning and this presser what we hear throughout it it does sound like they have begun that process of trying to figure out. What kind of person would have done this? What is the the psychology of that person? We're going to hear more of that. Hey everyone it's Dan simply safe home. Security is the highest level of security. You can have with. Police dispatch up to three hundred and fifty percent faster than a normal burglar alarm. With simply safe you get comprehensive protection for your home outdoor cameras and doorbells alert you to anyone approaching your home at entry. Motion and glass break. Sensors guard the inside. If there's a break in they use real video evidence to give police in eyewitness accounts of the crime plus simply safe protects your home from your water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning to and it's all monitored twenty four seven by live security professionals. You can set it up yourself no tolls needed or they can do it for you. It's only fifty cents per day with no contracts. You'll get free shipping and a sixty day risk-free trial you've got nothing to lose. Go now and be sure you go to simplisafe dot com slash D t h so that they know we sent you that simply safe dot com slash D t h down. The hill is supported by better. Help online counseling sometimes. Life's tough for me you. Everyone could all use help in those down moments but may not know how or where to ask for it. You need to know you're not alone. You're really not better. Help is available for you. They offer licensed counselors who specialize in issues many of us struggle with like depression anxiety stress complicated relationships problems sleeping grief trauma in anger. Stresses Big one for me and better help gives me a place where I can talk to someone when I need to keep track of how I'm feeling you can connect privately with a counselor through text chat phone and video calls and get help on your own time at your own pace at affordable rates and if you happen not to click with the professional. You're working with you can opt for a new one at no additional charge. Better help is committed to finding the right person to give you the right. Help down the hill listeners. Get ten percent off their first month with Discount Code. D T H. That's better help dot com slash D T H. Why not get help? Better help dot com slash t t h partout sight. And sound the the down. The hell do you. Do you believe you know what hill that was that they went down right down there and is that a steep hill is at a walkable hill was pretty rough terrain. We're about to hear from the FBI as well and they are in this from the beginning helping to process evidence found at the scene and also helping to put together a profile of what kind of person might have done this the FBI's initial involvement in this case was sort of by happenstance and agent happened to be in town visiting family and decided to go and participate in the search for the girls. First night heard the call for volunteers and went out and so the FBI was certainly aware of what was going on very early. Nine days ago. we had an agent that was participating in the search for the missing victims. And from that moment until this morning we have stood shoulder to shoulder with our law enforcement partners here the FBI plays an important support role in this investigation joint investigation. And I'd like I'd like to community to to go back to the afternoon of February thirteenth Monday February thirteenth. And just think if you had an interaction with an individual who inexplicably cancelled an appointment that you had had together or An individual called into work sick and cancelled the out and out an important appointment or social engagement and at the time gave what would have been a plausible explanation myself own broker. I had a flat tire on my car. But in retrospect that excuse no longer holds water that may be that may be important. Just a note he's about to say may thirteenth. He clearly means February likely. So our behavioral indicators that this individual may have exhibited since the afternoon of May thirteenth did this individual travel unexpectedly. Did they change their appearance today? Shave their beard cut their hair change the color of their hair. The Superintendent mentioned the close at this individuals wearing in the photo. Did they did? They changed the way they dress. Did their behavior change their sleep. Pattern is different now. Did they start abusing a drugs or alcohol where whereas they would not have been anxious nervous? Irritable have they followed this case and the media's putting out With a with a sense. That is not normal. have they had ongoing discussions regarding Their their whereabouts on that afternoon or thereafter and so while Superintendent Carter starts a dialogue with the killer. This is more of an appeal to the killers friends and family because he probably does have friends and loved ones who may already be wondering. What's what's up what's going on and all of this while there are billboards going up all over the country states including I saw one here in Atlanta. There's a public service announcement that goes out to all of the Indiana radio outlets. I'm sorry. Tony Slocum Indiana State police at approximately twelve fifteen pm February fourteenth two thousand seventeen the bodies of Abigail Jay Williams. Thirteen and Liberty Rose Lynn German. Fourteen both from Delphi Indiana found in the wooded area near the Delphi historic trails. East to Delphi Indiana. Okay let's get back to the press conference at this time. I would like to invite Captain Day. Burston Chief Public Information Officer for Indiana State Police to the podium for the last seventeen minutes of this briefing authorities have been giving shape to the evidence that's been released normally oppressor like this is largely routine with a lot of procedural questions. There are rarely surprises. But when Dave Burston top spokesman with the Indiana state police comes to the microphone. There is a brand new headline. Thank you we do. Have some new information for you today. It's in the form of audio file from the cellphone. The Liberty German had with her at the time. We're not going to play everything that we have but liberty had the presence of mind to turn on video camera again. We're not going to be able to share everything with you but we are going to share this audio clip with you momentarily with the hope that somebody will recognize this voice. I want to be very clear that what you're about to hear is just four short words. Excuse me three words down the hill. You're going to hear this played four times. The audio quality is not superb. But there's enough there that somebody could recognize this person's voice and a Superintendent Carter said not to rationalize away if you hear this today and you think my God that sounds like fill in the blank. Call US. Make an anonymous tip. Tell us who you think. It is. Let us investigate it. If it's not the right person they'll just be out a little bit of time and they'll be weird they can go on and they'll never know that you call that you may tell us who the right person was and you could be the person that helps us to solve this horrible crime. Mica play the clip. Please play it one. More time burst in than puts together the sound with the photo of the man on the bridge. It's on an Easel in front of them. Next to two large photos of Abbey Libby the image that you see there of the suspect that came from liberties phone. I think many of you had speculated that before we weren't prepared to discuss the time we have more video we're not releasing it it's Germane to our investigation and it's important that we spread that person's voice far and wide for somebody that will recognize who that is and we'll call us and tell us I talked to a while back audio forensics expert about these words specifically and my question was what can someone who does what he does. Glean from hearing that you know. Is there an accent? Is there kind of a regional dialect? I mean it's tough because there's only three words and basically he said to me especially with a sample size this short. There's basically not a lot that you can get out of it and I think law enforcement knows that and that's why they loop it and play it three or four times so you are hearing. What sounds like a longer clip in theory but it is still just those three words that we have to work with at this point in the investigation and there is a tip line that the FBI takes over. There is a website. There's an email address that people can send in tips. There's a lot of different ways. That law enforcement are asking for the public to deliver that help that they've been begging for since this crime happened the other thing. That's important to note here. Is that Dave Burston. Who's kind of the chief spokesperson for the Indiana State Police? He says that they're not sharing everything. Obviously the question is how much more is there? Well it sounds like there's a pretty significant amount. What other stuff is on that phone and what they're going to tell us now also in the this press conference there is a QNA session. That happens right after and oftentimes. That's usually when the TV cameras sort of leave and go back to their regular programming but this one was kind of interesting there were a couple of wow moments. Let's start going through those sort of one at a time. Is there any specific information that says the person has local or far away? No could this be a stranger crime. That's a possibility this be somebody that knew that the girls are going to be there that time. That's a possibility. Nothing is off the table. The rest of these are tough to hear so we'll read them for you question. How long after Liberty Posted Social Media? Did this crime happened to the murders happened immediately. After or was there time for someone to see them on social media and then meet them Metro as as we know that they're going to be lots of questions that we specifically cannot answer because there are things that we do not want to tip our hand to the person responsible for this that kind of information. We're keeping close to ourselves. Is it reasonable to think that that's an area who wanna two things happen? That was a chance encounter. That's possible I don't think it's likely but it's possible or that person knew that they were going to be there. That's possible as well. Those are things that we're looking to question over here. Dave Burston is saying in that last question that it's possible the killer new. Those girls were out there. It was a moment that when we played this bag we all stopped and went. Wait a minute why at and so I reached out today Burston. He's no longer with the Indiana state. Police he retired in twenty nineteen and now is the chief communications officer for the Department of Corrections in Indiana so he still in the area but he reminded me. He is no longer part of this investigation. I asked him for some clarity on this statement. Did he mean to imply that? It's more likely that these girls were targeted. And that isn't what he's saying he's saying at this point in the investigation in February of two thousand seventeen. They are looking at all options. It basically comes down to what you'll hear. Investigators call target and target of opportunity. Those are two different things. Correct target being a PERP goes with the intention of killing a person by the name of whatever and then a target of opportunity. Being the person's goal is to commit a killing or murder coup. Those people are who they kill is irrelevant right. Perhaps he went there to commit this crime and then Abbey in libby stumbled upon him question based upon what you have it what other investigators have scene of this crime. Do you believe this individual has killed before? And what makes you believe he will do it again? There has been no indication right now that that this is part of a a serial Murderer if that's what your question is So As of the facts that we have collected at this point in time we have not tied to any other Known Homicides Barb. It is inevitable around such a high profile murder. It is inevitable that someone's going to ask the question. Is this a serial killer? It's important to note that while that question is obviously one of the first ones that's asked not every murder is at the hands of a serial killer however in this story the circumstances surrounding the murders because they are so different. It would lead you to believe that. Perhaps this was not the first time this was done. But that is certainly something that is looked at when you have a high profile murder like you said and the circumstances are different you look at other cases they obviously have not linked it to another homicide that they know of but Superintendent Carter Asks. Who's WHO's next worse. Central Logging Radio Show We. We have other information that we're not sharing and specific to your question Raphael. Keep in mind that they're likely the possibility of more than one person We're we're not saying that the person that the voice that you heard is the same as this person here. This is all very complicated very involved and as much as we would like to tell you everything. More importantly we want to solve the crime But again rest assured we're using our resources to put the person or persons murdered liberty German Abigail Williams into our jail here in Carroll County. That was a lot that just got delivered and the people of Delphi are now dealing with a very different story. Everything has changed for them. This is also where we start hearing multiple instances of them saying the person or persons always struck me interesting. Yeah so they don't say they're only looking for one person or they may be looking for Tube. They leave open up possibility that we're not sure how many people were dealing with yet law enforcement as a general rule. I think oftentimes has to hedge. Things has to leave the door open and they do that here. But sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes they save things for a specific reason. Unfortunately we are left to wonder. Is this hedging themselves? Is this a specific reason? Hey everybody it's Dan Semmoto Bitch and along with barb and drew I produce this show. There's a lot going on in the story but one thing we didn't want to lose in all of that is a sense of who abby libby were and we've been taking time out here and there to learn just that this chapter we have. Libya's grandfather Mike Patty talking a little bit about what kind of girl she was. She was a person who wanted to as much of a life as she could possibly get on the detri- everything do everything didn't matter what it was whether it's from rides at the carnival to her school project. She wanted to put as much into this. She possibly could to get as much out of it. Is You possibly could projects here at home? You know from Haroon wanting to paint at different colors. Redoing your desk which is one of the projects. She was right in the middle of When all this tragedy struck her desk sitting over here we've committed. That's going to be our next project. We're going to Redo her desk finish the project. She started that was just how she was. She was always had an iron or two in the fire. Showing law stuff going on all the time. We'll be hearing more about abby and Libby and other folks in Delphi in future for now though let's get back to the show part three. I knew she was smart. No idea that Wisconsin. I had no forewarning and I still have. I can't even like I. I have trouble saying those words. I can't hear it libs. Mom Carried Timmons remembers the first time she heard the audio but it was the first time I heard it was so like it wasn't cleaned up yet. That very first press conference. I don't know if anybody really remembers but that very first time the that recording was played couldn't really understand what he was saying and it was all like lake computerized sounding and then they were able to clean it up and suddenly it was D. T. H. And it was like what the Hell is he saying. Like Y and I remember thinking. That doesn't even sound like urgent. He's not yelling. He's so calm and still to this day as like so eerie sounding to me but it didn't recognize it didn't sound like anybody a nude and sound like anybody had ever heard before phrase. I never saw any heard anybody even used before. Like normally like in. Just go it. Wouldn't it didn't any sense? So that was weird. I still wish there's times I still wish I could hear more but I don't know how much more there is that I could handle hearing so I do. Try Not to think of what is actually going on. When he says those words Kerry Timmons can't say the words but Abbie's mom and a Williams is pulled in two directions about the release of the video the audio and the images every time. Something like that would happen. I would hold my breath because part of you wants this over and you hope you know who is in that picture in you. You hope you recognize that voice in the other part of you. Hope she don't because the idea that the person is most likely here or his lived here in somebody I may have crossed path was whether they knew who was or not or I knew them makes you ill and that is probably one of the hardest things to move through life on until this person is caught that every day. There's potential of them crossing your pass. Libya's friend Erica. Gibson is like a lot of people proud of Libya for capturing that evidence on her phone when you found out that she had actually taken a video of the guy. What did you think in my head? I was truly cheering. Her on. No one can do that. And that's You know that first hand evidence there that's the most important evidence because mean people can say they saw a guy. People can draw a sketch but I mean unless you have photographic memory like where you can remember. It's really hard and it's even hard for me to identify a person after I see them and I think that was amazing for her because she knew something was up. She knew she had to do something. Probably didn't have service so she thought of the next thing she could and I don't think a lot of people do think of that. She didn't know what was GONNA happen. I don't even know she knew. The guy was bad. Sometimes like we joke around abby when abby was out with her mom and she just take a photo and be like joking. Ravi Lake. That's your boyfriend or you know just joking around and so like it could. It started out as a joke like that and then some would next to each other or chatted or we did those jokes on the volleyball bus. Mostly like she'd take a photo and then she showed me. We never sent them but like it could've been something like that. I knowing them they're skits people. So like Abbie is like so goofy that she's like who pursued scares me and stuff like that and that's how she would act but I feel like it may of they thought maybe it would have been funny or something like that. I don't think they ever thought because they get scared but to me. It's like a joking scared so that guy must've really. I don't know scared them to Kelsey German. Libya's older sister feels the same way. I was really proud of my sister. I. I don't think that I knew the voice or the person that was in the video but watching the video. I was overwhelmed that my sister was able to do something like that and that she was able to know that something was going to happen. It was also very sad to know that she knew something was GonNa Happen. Like enough to take this video So so many emotions were hitting me once watching it that I don't really know exactly what I was feeling. I just know that I was just overwhelmed with so many emotions that I kind of. It was shocking to me like. I knew she was smart. I know she is smart and she does that kind of stuff all the time but it was crazy to think that she was able to know before something happened that she needed to do something. She's been called a hero for that. Yeah and she is but I definitely think both of them are. I don't think that one would have left the other so to me. Obvious my hero because she stayed with my sister and I love them both for that. Why Libby hit record on her phone. That's still unclear but carry. Libya's mom has her own thoughts. Do you think that libby took that video on purpose. Because she was concerned I think she got him in the video because she was concerned but I don't think that that was her initial purpose taking the video because it was my understanding that they were out there taking pictures and video anyway and like learning now with my my younger girls and snapchat and all this other video social media. They do that crap all the time. Even if they're just picking up a rock they're still taking a little video of it which I'm very thankful for but I didn't get it at the time so I think now looking back that she probably wasn't exactly videoing. I think she left it on and made sure it was recording. Because she knew something was not right. But I don't think that was the initial purpose. I could be completely wrong though. I haven't seen were hurt the entire video. Mike Patty. Libya's grandfather has his thoughts to and I've been asked a question is down that would have been living capturing that information in if things would've been different and girls wouldn't have been murdered. She would've came home and said look this. This guy was out here. Really Acting Weird a strange guy you know and with a shared I don. I know that's what she would have done. This real Weirdo out there. Of course we would have said no more trails. But that's why she would've captured that. No no doubt in my mind. She'll come home and said this Weirdo. Do you recognize anything in her video or the still that they've released unfortunately no. I wish I could. I wish I could recognize that voice or a rack my brain millions of times or thousands and thousands of times still even to this day. Something's GonNa trigger and say okay. Yeah I don't next time on down the hill. For months we had a plan for our fifth chapter. That was until one interview gave some brand new information about the crime scene. All I can say about the situation. Abby Libya's that there was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene. It's probably not what you would imagine down. The Hill is written and produced by Robert McDonald. Dan Cemetery in me. Andrew Aydin with original music and scoring by Shuo. Sir Michael Dudley kaylene chassis are associate producers if you want to see the people places and things. We're talking about visit our website at down the hill. Podcasts DOT COM Cherry Soviets as h senior production manager. Brian Bell is senior director of programming and Tyler. Moody is the Vice President of the Warner Media podcast network. We want to say a special thanks to the people of Delphi in the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime and most important of all a big thanks to you. Of course we appreciate your listening.

Abbey Libby Libby Abby Indiana Delphi Libya Superintendent Carter FBI murder Abigail Williams Indiana State Police Mike Patty superintendent Robert McDonald Dave Burston Carroll County US State Police Superintendent Doug Carter Doug Carter
Chapter 9: Three Februaries

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

46:16 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 9: Three Februaries

"To get a look at the people in places we're talking about in this show and to find out how you can call or email in a tip. Visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT COM. You don't come out terribly often but looking through these trees and kind of getting an idea of where everything is. What do you see when you look out there? You know again for not only myself. But several community Consider this hallowed ground so to say and the memories more so the positive memories of you know of Abbey and Libyan what they had to offer in in both our past and what they were looking to offer our community. This is the first year that there is not a press conference on the anniversary. The anniversary is this week. Do you worry that. Not Having a press conference sends the message that the case is now cold. I will respond to that as I have a number of times. We'll continue to do so particularly I fall back on the tips and information that continue to come in to us and if and if I recall correctly I've commented that in our world true coke cases where you have nothing to work on. Basically all avenues have been shut down and nothing's occurred. We are far from that. I mean we still have a lot of things to look into following into individuals to look into so this in my opinion is sheriff. This is not a co- case in still a very active case. A police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared the announcement that the girls have been found the SMA to a good end. Investigators a crime scene. We suspect foul play. Law Enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. Amazing that we have. We have a still photograph. We have sound this person's it could be half the white males and Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. One day you will. This is down the hill. The Delphi murders our one. Our theory we've spent the last eight or so hours working to give. You is full of pictures we can about what we know and the people. This story has affected now that you have the picture now that you have the known evidence you probably also have at least one theory about what happened on February thirteenth. Two thousand seventeen we do to. Dan drew and I have spent many hours. Hashing it out arguing finding what makes sense before we share it though. We need to say that what you're about to hear is based purely on what we've learned based on publicly available information and our own experiences and reporting it's ours and not informed by anything more than what we've discussed with you also you know. The police don't comment on this case. One way or another at this is no exception and before we start we should say that for some. This could be tough to listen to. Here's what we think happened in most murders most crimes. It's often true that the simplest explanation is usually the right one in a crime that seems incredibly complex on its face. We tried to simplify things again. We don't know most of this but when we ask ourselves what makes sense. This is what we come up with. One person committed this crime in the killers. Planning of it began long before 2017. You've heard police friends family and people who live in Delphi. All say that he must be local. If you've been out to the bridge in the area where the girls bodies were found. It's easy to see why it's extraordinarily unlikely that you end up at any of those places unless you know where they are. They're just not easy to find through that area. The bridge the creek the trails the woods. You'll find people hunting hiking fishing camping anything. You might do outdoors. We believe the killer was and probably still is someone who is really into at least one of those activities. Maybe he grew up walking those woods. Or maybe he's newer and spends a lot of time outdoors either way over time. It could be that a fantasy started forming in his head in that bridge. Maybe he started to see the perfect trap and it really is after you cross your creek. The rest of that bridge is obscured by woods on both sides. Once you're there there's nowhere to go except forward or backwards. The fantasy started to become a plan. He picked out his spot on the bridge. Figured out how to take a troll and how to keep it. He worked out a route from the bridge to his intended site. Based on the fact that strange and unique signatures were later left at the crime scene. We believe he knew exactly what he wanted to do with his victims were told that in cases like this killers who plan often rehearse so we think he did exactly that rehearsed his plan. He walked route. You practices methods. He was ready all he needed. Were Victims and privacy. When Kelsey dropped Abbey in Libya off at the redgate outside the Mir's farm. They walked that trail until it came to an intersection. Turn rate and you'll follow along trail ending up the freedom bridge turn left. You'll follow shorter trail and end up at the MO- non hybrid. They turned left as they approached the bridge. He would've been out there past the creek in the trees. From that distance he wouldn't have appeared very large and seen someone else out. There wasn't a cause for alarm after all it was a popular spot for hiking and taking pictures. Abby and Libby walked out onto the bridge and slowly made their way across the creek. Now this part is key to why we think he was already out there not long after they crossed the creek. Libby took those snapchat photos. We know they were across the creek. Because in the picture of Abbey you can see it behind her and in the picture taken with the camera pointed in the other direction. Libya's clearly on the portion of the bridge that is obscured by woods one major element missing from those pictures. Though another person we know from the video on Libya's phone that the killer caught up with them not long after those snapchat photos retaken. We also know that it's nearly impossible to move quickly across that bridge. It seems unreasonable. To the point of absurd that he'd be able to catch up with them and end up where he did in the video walking in the direction. He's walking if he started his approach from either end of the bridge. So where was he to us? It makes sense that he was very close to Libya when she took those photos between the time when she took the picture of Abbey and took the picture facing the other way. Abby Lynn killer past each other it was at this point that the killer reached is decision. Were these the victims he wanted? Was there anyone else out there? Close enough to see or hear what he planned. Was He ready? If the answer to any of these questions was not what he needed all he had to do was keep walking instead after he abbey in Libya past each other. He turned around and made his approach. And at this point the picture starts blurting. We don't know enough details to be too specific but based on what we do know. Here's what we think happened next. Abby and Libby noticed him walking back in their direction now if alarm bells weren't going off after he passed them this could have started them the direction they were all walking. Now that only led to the end of the trail. It was private property from there on out. People didn't really go. They're seeing a man walking away from the end of the trail back to where he presumably would have come from. That would have seemed normal. Him Turning around and walking back towards the end that would most likely have seemed unusual to them at some point signals were picked up may be instinct started to kick in and Libby started recording video on her phone. We know from Robert is that the video we do have of the killers very short and almost out of frame. So Libya's most likely trying to hide the fact that she was recording as he approached she most likely kept recording and put the phone in her pocket. There's no way the killer could have seen her recording and not taken the phone or otherwise attempt to destroy it also. We know that whatever is on that recording is mostly audio so the phone being in her pocket would account for that. Shortly after Libby started her phone he caught up with them. He began with a simple greeting then began control of them. We don't know how a gun or a knife seems likely. But you can't be sure at this point trapped on the bridge as we said you only have one direction to go and we know that it's virtually impossible to run on that thing. They must have been terrified but we know they were smart kids and that they wouldn't leave each other so most likely playing for time. Complying perhaps waiting for an opportunity to escape at the end of the bridge close to where the private property begins. He ordered them to turn northward and go. What happens from here to wear? Their bodies are found is a complete blank spot. We believe that the girls moved under their own power down the hill through the woods and across the creek until they reached the spot where they were murdered. There were two victims in one of them. Libby was nearly two hundred pounds carrying them for any real distance. Seems Unlikely we don't know how they were killed or if it happened where they were found if they weren't it could not have been too far away. Given the difficulty carrying libby would have caused while we know the killer left signatures at the crime scene. We don't know what they were were their signatures part of how they were killed. Are they something? The killer did post mortem and what made them so odd and strange. All we can do is speculate. Since Abbey's bodies were discovered in an easy to Miss Ravine we think the killer attempted to hide the bodies so whether they were killed. They're not he. Put them there to buy himself some time to enact his escape plan if our scenario is right the killer did a lot of planning probably did his best to account for most aspects of this crime how to take and keep control of his victims how to ensure he had the time in privacy. He needed to do what he did. He had to have known had to of that wants. The girls went missing. Wants whomever is victims. Were to be witnessing. Massive search would begin. He would have accounted for that to an his post crime planning as he figured out how to get away with. It is most likely out there somewhere designing next trapped. We've been asking throughout this series. What the Hell happened out there? That's our theory again. It's all based on what we've learned in our reporting and what's already out there to us. That's what makes sense. It just fits a big part of the what comes from an understanding of the WHO former profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole she was with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit and. You met her a few chapters ago sat down with us to work through some of that and again. It's worth mentioning that. The police won't comment on the crime scene. Or the killer beyond what they've already said. In instances involving young female victims were there. Looks like there's the presence of predatory behavior which is basically hunting behavior forehand It would make sense that this was a sexually motivated. Crime but but crimes generally Even very simple crimes have multiple motivations to them so sex may be a part of the primary motivation and this crime there is also the motivation of being of this thrill and excitement of the hunt and then the killing so with was something like this. You're probably dealing with multiple motivations. And what's interesting as well is that motivations can change actually during the scene itself so if victims react to the offender in a way that he did not anticipate then his motivation may be different to okay now. I have to overcome this victim. I have to take back control from this victim. So that's why as a profiler going to the seams or Being able to observe video from the first responders that they took the same becomes really important because we can tell what the interaction is between the offender and the victims as the crime. Continues based on What I've heard and what I've read is that there is planning that went into the Crime. And when you if you have an offender who decides on the crime and then picks victims who are available then In the cases where. I've seen that to be the case It usually involves offenders who tend to be sexually sadistic which is concerning Because they are they can they can be. They are the most violent sexual offenders that we know of sexually sadistic offenders are are offenders who picked the location where the crime occurred and then we'll pick victims of opportunities so they're not known to the victims that makes sense to me because the violence in this case seems to be instrumental violence as opposed to reactive. Violence somebody hits me in the nose and I hit them back. That's the most common type of violence but instrumental. Violence is important to really understand. I think particularly as it may be applicable in this case and instrumental. Violence usually involves strangers or cannonball strangers. It also is very cold blooded It's very predatory and it's completely devoid of any emotion On the part of the offender for the victim and I think in this in in this case of course the victims are just objects to this kind of an offender. So we're talking about somebody that is engaged in instrumental violence And it's predatory nature. If in fact he did not know them. He picked the location but not the the young victims. Then he is a sexual. Predator and predatory behavior is consistent With someone who has the personality disorder that used to be referred to as sociopath that term was thrown out in nineteen sixty eight and the new term? We use now is someone who psychopathic and when you have someone who psychopathic. If that's the case who's also a sex offender. They can do anything. They want to their victims and they feel themselves absolutely no remorse or guilt for what they do but I will also tell you that. This offender was very comfortable out there. You could hear it in his voice if that's his voice If that's him walking on the bridge he's not excited. He is not nervous. He's not from what's been Displayed Through the video and through the photographs. He doesn't appear to be highly impulsive. But someone that again is is in charge of himself an in control that when he first accessed the girls I've had cases where You've got to victims of one offender. You've got young girls who could run away. There may have been an effort on his part or may have been something that he did to show them a weapon to make sure that they complied with him and would not run away or would not do something else to interfere with the crime so he would have come prepared but control with two young victims like that would be very important and so was his voice. Maybe not you described quite a bit about what kind of person might have done this. Do you have any opinion on what that person might look like in his everyday life when he's not committed to actually I do when you have a case like this or case that despite the tremendous effort on the part of the detectives and the Law Enforcement Folks that have been working this when someone is able to fly under the radar screen Like this for an extended period of time. It's generally because they appear to be so normal and non threatening and I think that's that's a theme that I heard On on Some of the podcast that I listen to. But I've seen it in cases where be a you has worked where the person just doesn't stand out as somebody that is Threatening that's stand out as someone that's Scary or creepy. They're very normal in two ways their normal in their behaviour and their normal in their lifestyle so meaning that they could have a job a good job they could be married they have children and in their everyday life They appear as normal as you and me. Do you have an opinion? I know you haven't been to Delphi. But you have an opinion about the location that he chose and why he chose it. Does he live near there? Yeah I think that location is important While anything is possible because this is an offender with a certain amount of confidence and a sense of self assured but we have a location like that it generally suggests at least initially that. That's a location where they are comfortable based on having been there before having knowledge of it knowing that there's a victim pool that would likely be there especially since it was a Snow Day that there may be kids out there And more specifically girls out there but it does suggest a familiarity now. Here's what's interesting to me to. When you commit an outdoor crime scene you have no control over. Who Sees you who writes down something Who observes you doing? What the last thing that you want them to see and they run to the police and and all of a sudden you're confronted with law enforcement so there's a lot of risk that this offender took to commit that scene in to do it there. That tells me that this is an offender who's very comfortable with taking risks in their in their life. They're not Stressed out by what they did. They're not stressed out or anxious about their behavior but he did go. He did take a lot of risk by committing outdoor crime scene. How do people like this get caught? Well there would have been a lot of forensic evidence at the scene Just in my opinion I would think that there would be quite a bit. And based on the French evidence That's probably the way this person will be caught identified and caught and I think that the evidence unlike a lot of murder cases and serial murder cases that I've worked is going to include or could include things like DNA whether it semen or blood. It could include fingerprints. It could include hairs and fibers trace evidence and I think what's really important. Is that these offenders think that they are smarter than law enforcement in smarter than forensic scientists they may have read a book or two but in the heat of committing that crime They will have shredded. They will have transferred some kind of of evidence and the application of new technologies to the evidence. That law enforcement has the I think there's a real good chance that's what will identify this person. Then again part of the reason that they fly into that radar screen for such a long time is they. Don't go home or back to work and behave in a real nervous way in anxiously way. They'll go home and have a hamburger French fries with their family for example so those kinds of post defense nervous behaviors may not be applicable in this case again. It's worth mentioning that. The police won't comment on the crime scene. Or the killer beyond what they've already said I'm and the Tacoma. Fd All new Thursday's attack untrue TV because he watched the company podcast which brings you brand new ideas TV shows and movies where some funny and creative Brits discover that maybe there is such thing as a bad idea. So the idea I heart a the didn't show called crazy in love. You've got a group of girls one really rich guy. And then there's a couple of like category mental patients if they must be getting a new street OCTA prisoner question there basically be paying for prove. I'm regretting this already. Subscribe to because you watched with new episodes every Thursday or to just a matter of time during our conversations with friends and family in Delphi. It's pretty evident that in-between the feelings of sadness and loss. There are flashes of hope and optimism that the arrest everyone wants of bridge guy is coming. I am confident that we're getting closer. That's Eric Gibson. Good friend of Abby and Libby and we say that every time but that's because we're getting closer every tip that comes in everything every person who here's the voice sees the face that's just getting closer and closer to finding the person who did IBM Libya's friend Cynthia Rossi. It doesn't make me a bad person for sometimes questioning while it's been this amount of time. Is it going to happen that asking? That question is okay and I've learned that It isn't up to me. It's in the hands of those who were trained to find the person and I have full trust in them and that they're doing the right thing and they know what they're doing Abbie's mom and Williams your biggest fears that he's going to do this to somebody else that he already has done. This with somebody else That somebody else's family is suffering. I feel like that's a big concern so I'd sleep a little bit better knowing that. This isn't ever going to happen anybody else and when we catch this guy. I I'll be able to close this chapter of wondering there is also rage. Here's pastor todd lad again when you think of someone who takes young girls lives. It makes me angry. Now that can be young girls here in Delphi that can be children who are affected anywhere else. That could be Things in Syria across the World War bombings occur in. Children are killed. GotTa stuff makes me angry but again what do is anger that enfolds us and controls or is the way that moves response to make a difference in the world so yeah. I have the feelings of anger. The feelings of how in the world? How could someone do that? Here's Eric Gibson again until trial you know. We won't exactly know if they can pin him guilty. But it's directed towards more hope and more closure than it is hatred and anger because like I'll still be angry then but the families getting closure communities getting closer kids can stop being scared to walk to school or walk to the Parker go to the trails because this person would be caught and so it'd be directed differently and I think it's GonNa be a big change a good change for everybody. When and if that day comes though former Delphi. Fire Chief Daryl. Stare at won't be able to forget what he couldn't deliver well from the beginning we were asked defined do girls and I couldn't I couldn't do it. Always asks blood very good friend to help them out and I couldn't do that. I know that's not being realistic. But one time that is at rest meditate. Rask for my hope and I couldn't three years after this crime. We went back to Delphi again and sat down with Mike. Patty and Superintendent Doug Carter in Mike's Kitchen. We wanted to hear from them together about moving forward. Looks like how two men who were leading very different lives in two thousand seventeen are now linked and working towards the same end. I had no idea that we would now be thirty six months out but I get my inspiration is very personal to me and allow that comes from my cutting Mike. Patty his wife. Becky Anna Because I o I o them SM- answers and resolution so that they can continue on some of their lives in a new way and that will never happen until this is done and over so I think the next step would be for this community. We talked a lot about that. The last time And then after the community for this part of the state and the state and the and the region and then the entire nation but it starts with a with a guy named Mike Patty and his wife Becky to me and Appreciator during means a lot. Obviously we've met and we've talked a lot you know correspondent back and forth and we've been from one side of the country to the other literally and actually become friends and that's a good friendship. I do like that I cherish it and I. I appreciate that but you're right. You Owe me. You Owe me something. But I'm going to work as hard as I can to help you deliver on that. And you know that and I maintain that position and I won't change that position because we're we're working to the same goal and I'm not going to stop anything that that Doug has asked of me I've delivered done my best to deliver and I've asked something of him and he's working as hard as he can and his team and supporting it to to make that delivery and one day we will and it's it's just a matter of time you know staying after it keep pushing forward. We're not we're not going to let up and trust me. I want this thing solved yesterday as bad as anybody probably more so but I realize it takes time because there's really two deliverables here one is Doug building in his team building up making a case to make an arrest. Then it goes over to the prosecutor who has to prosecute the case and we can't lose sight of that because we gotta get it right and we have to get it right and if that missing piece of the puzzle is the PC's needing then. That's what I'm out. There advocating for people to call in. If you have one little tip one little bit of information you may think oh it. That's insignificant. No it's not. Let those professionals. That's what these guys do for a living Let Them Lipton that. That out and make that determination. It's not for me even myself. People call me up and say hey I think so and so or I got this information I said I tell them. I'm basically kind of become an investigator. I start asking the questions and I said you know. I'm turning this in because I can't go make the arrest not truly enforced so interesting you say that and that is that's probably something I should talk more about. But you're right. Because once the arrest is made all fifty thousand tips are going to be are going to be dissect it every single one of those tips will be dissected. And we'll find out if there's any connectivity because if we jeopardise this we can't pull it back. It's easy for the media or citizens or whomever to say. I think it's this and if they're not if they're wrong. It's okay but mike is exactly right. We if we jeopardize this we own it. We own it and hold people accountable should and and that's why we we want to get it right and we're going to continue to and it's a it's a tough row to hoe you know But I entrust in law enforcement is doing so when they when they call me. I'm waiting for that. Call Double Call me and say we got good prevails. If it didn't we will we wouldn't live in a civilized society but is a civilized society and the vast majority of people are good but there's also evil in this is an example of evil. Give her question that or does that faith in good winning ever waiver for you. Oh absolutely you know my dad. My Dad was a was a state trooper and when he gave me my badge some thirty five years ago. Plus he said don't become cynical like me and on his death bed. I told Him Dad. I'm not cynical but I'm getting close. I'm finding it. I'm curious what your thoughts are on good versus evil and does good win. Yes good good in. The truth will always prevail. That's from my Christian beliefs. In the fact that the Lord will deliver. We certainly hope it's in our lifetime certainly hope it's here and now for us if not there's a higher power that will be answered to and we'll judge and That'll come in time. It doesn't satisfy is why we're here on on this earth and we want that so badly. I can't think like this guy. I I've tried to put my mind in the same place and I don't think I can. I've tried to use some kind of weird cycle you know. Why would this Guy Thinking? Why would he do something like that? And and I've been out there and think the same things and and just try to hope something would hit me and all but Mikey may be free. But he's really not his soul is his goal is closed and dark and cold he goes to sleep like united do every single night and then he wakes up and the last thing he thinks of is what he did and the first thing in the morning he wishes it would go away. I know that to be true. I just really do that. I just don't believe that he has got a clean soul and he'll never ever ever Be Able to to to to cross the gates of Heaven and another way. I look at that as for him. And you're right. He may be walking amongst us. But you've got to be continually looking over his shoulder -solutely. It's not a good way to live. Are there moments of anger? Or do you feel like that's not productive. What kind of role does that play in your roles in this for myself personally Of course I'm angry down inside and I don't let that out because that I use. I'm a very pragmatic I I try to think my way through things in my angry down inside about yes. I'm angry I'm frustrated. I'm disappointed this even happened. But you know to lash out at somebody in this raw anger. What value would that provide? What value how are you? I'm good and pissed off. Frankly for all the reasons we already talked about. And my soul's getting eaten from the inside out if I saw the person that did this to them. I don't think I'd be angry but I simply want to know why you know. What were you thinking at that moment in time? And how freeing that must be him once he'd be able to tell somebody that I just can't help but think that it would be an opportunity for him to release what he's feeling inside and trying to to to release what he saw those final moments. Those kinds of compensation side one may unspoken. But you you would get an answer in my in my entire career. I've only seen five soon to be five. I believe evil people truly evil. They don't care if you live or die but even they had less relation as to what they didn't like this one's different because I can't explain why in Like we said when this all started I o that explanation to Mike Patty and his family and demanding other members of the family. I'm sorry you're a member of that club. Really truly am sorry. Wish there could have been something that we could have done prior to that. That would have prevented this from happening. But I guess that wasn't in the cards Aside from appreciation which he knows how much I appreciate the dedication and and the resources that he's bestowed upon us When I say us as the local community to help Travel down this path but I wish I'd met the man. Onto different circumstances with their become friends a different way and sit around and joking laughing cut up about different things and but we still have a laugher too but for the most part were or focused on the same thing we we we got an objective had a cold beer in California lots. I think we did. Maybe and that was That was an enjoyable moment as well. But there again. We were still doing that focused on the objective and the deliverable here. So thank you. Thank you for everything. And I know you're not going to give up a UH part three riding with Tobe. When this podcast ends you will move on new podcasts. Work other things me. Barb and our producer Danner moving onto other stories other cases. But after we've all moved on the town of Delphi won't the families of Abigail Williams and Liberty German won't even Doug Carter the face and Voice of the Delphi? Murder case in many ways is going to need to return to work running. The state. Police were budgets meetings with the governor but sheriff Tobe Lesin beep the where's the badge and Carroll County with the bald head and powerful mustache. Won't he can't. This crime. Is that his front door? You grew up in. Carroll County right actually. I grew up in Clinton county the next county south of us here so bud. Much sweat more of my adult life here in my home county. So it's a ten minute drive from jobs office to a small roadside cemetery along three hundred north. It's about as close as you can get to the crime scene without stepping on a private property so we are at the cemetery and explain for me where the crime scene was In that I'm I'm not the best judge of Distance. I will visually physically describe. There's a ridge. There's actually two ridges here. One very close to us at cycle one non on over a few more feet beyond that second ridge much closer to the deer creek is the area where the girls were located. And you're confident that this case will be solved. I am I am and that's again I've been for thirty four years now and Grad we we haven't Resolved. Every one of them. You know I come from the cloth that Get to this day. That good wins over evil. It may take some time. Seems like it does some days but you know we. We had that continued perseverance about us and persistence. So I feel like we will gain resolve with with his investigation and unfortunately I just. I don't know when when we spoke to you in September. You said that you had a handful of names in your head that you couldn't get out of your head you said five. Has that changed since then? If you add it any have you taken any away. I do the second part I would say I think in my own mind that possibly at this stage we have narrowed that list down You know maybe you know three through four but at the end of the day you know when an arrest is made Doug Carter's go back to Indianapolis and deal with the state level stuff that he has to deal with but whoever is arrested in this case is going to be sitting in a jail cell feet from your office. Have you thought about after the satellite trucks. Go Away after Doug Carter in the is returned back to Indianapolis and you're working and you turn off the lights in the office and that guy's just down the hall honestly I haven't but That's that is an interesting thought more. So I guess from an administrative standpoint Being the I feel the professional that I am as sheriff of this county and this is the way it is for all other ninety-one sheriffs in state of Indiana we are we are charged with the by state law the care of individuals within our facilities and so therefore. I take that responsibility seriously. I guess I'll call it a personal side. I I'd love to you know potentially go back there and just have conversation but again the law would more likely at that stage. Prevent me from doing that. Because they have legal representation. What would that conversation be? You know I I again. Learned many years ago as a young deputy. One of the simplest questions is a simple question. The response is not so sample the simplest question. I guess I WOULD WANNA ask why. Why did you do this? Believe it or not. That's one of the questions that we rarely get an answer to. They can tell us the how the where the win. The Watt. Those kinds of questions. What comes to the why we don't always get a straight answer. I noticed we get in your car. You have the sticker on your Dash. It said you know paraphrasing but at the end of the day. God's got this faith. Sounds like it's an important part of you and your resolve with this case very true very true. I I honestly look forward to the day going back spiritually that when we have that that final press conference. I want to be able to stand up in front of everyone and honestly say to God be all the glory because he will help us this and as a second statement obviously WanNa say we got him until then until tube can save those words. It's just open ended. It's just going this podcast. This story unrolled to you in parts. Nine episodes that we hope was able to shine a light on dark crime. That took away too. Young lives forever changed a host of others and shifted the trajectory of an entire town for all of them. This case doesn't end after nine chapters. It doesn't end. When they return to work it continues with no certainty that the open will at some point close but as police officer any sheriff. Any man or woman of the law and their work begins and ends with the unwavering belief. That justice always wins every time but that means never letting up and turning over every rock twice just in case. What do you think about when you come out here? Have we miss something you know? Is there still something here? That we haven't fully ingrained and and pick up on. You know I remember the words of Doctor Henry Lee and studied the crime scene. It will tell you the story of what what has happened in a particular area or location and so I'd like to think that yes. We've we've covered all the bases but you know we're human. We Miss Things we ask ourselves to a certain degree you know we have. We missed something here down. The Hill is written and produced by Barbara McDonald. Andrew Aydin in me dance with original music and scoring by Shoe Vaux Sur and production support for associated producers. Michael Dudley and Kaley chassis if you want to see the people places and things. We're talking about visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT COM. Brian Bell is H. L. Ed Senior Director of programming and Tyler Moody's Vice President of the Warner Media Podcast Network Sherry sell. Deeds is our senior production manager. A LOT OF FOLKS AT H. Olenin CNN worked very hard to help this show and we wanted to get a fix to them to also a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime. Most important of all we want to thank you for listening.

Delphi Libby Libya Mike Patty Abby Lynn Abbey Carroll County investigator murder Superintendent Doug Carter SMA Eric Gibson Dan Abigail Williams Doctor Henry Lee Tacoma Doug Carter deer creek
Chapter 5: Signatures

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

35:26 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 5: Signatures

"To get a look at the people places we're talking about in this show and to find out how you can call or email in a tip. Visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT COM. Was there a signature in his craft? Like would you characterize signature? I would say there were two or three things. I'd say at least three for the last eight months as we've been putting the show together in our private conversations. We've gone over plenty of hypothetical scenarios. You've most likely been doing that too. Based on information we can't prove an police won't confirm this information though is brand new. And it's on the record. We're told the killer left the signature at least one maybe even a few. It's an element of this crime. That tells us more about what sort of crime scene we're looking at. And what kind of killer. Investigators may be facing. Police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared announcement but the girls have been found not to a good end. We are investigating this as they try seen. We suspect foul play. Law Enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. We have we have a still photograph. We have sound this person as it could be half the white males and Carroll county to the killer who maybe in this room. We likely interview. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. One day you will. This is down the hill. The DELPHI murders part. One two or three things. I'm H. Orleans. Andrew Aydin along with Barbara McDonald in two thousand seventeen. After the discovery of the bodies of Agian Libby there was as we know a flurry of law enforcement activity. Crime Scene Techs police deputies. Fbi But there was also a man by the name of Robert Ives who stood at the edge of the crime scene taking it all in at the time was the prosecuting attorney of Carroll County and the man responsible for the prosecution but that changed at the end of two thousand seventeen. Robert is retired and handed the reins over to the current prosecuting attorney Nick. Mcclellan we've made attempts to speak to McClellan but he hasn't responded to our requests for an interview so Robert Ives. He's a middle aged man. Salt and pepper hair glasses. His family has lived Delphi for a long time like civil war long. We met him at a beautiful three story house. That's been a part of his family for a century. He let us to the kitchen where we all sat in creaky wooden chairs in front of a brick fireplace and hearth as we listen to is recount. His story our conversation led the places we really didn't anticipate and we had lots to follow up on the plane. We had went out the window. That's why you'll hear questions for me. Barbara and a third off. Mike Voice our producer. Dan ovatch from ives perspective crime scenes and Carroll County are generally routine. He says it's usually pretty clear from the jump. Who did what. But that's not the case. Here you were quoted as saying that the evidence or the crime scene was odd. What do you mean by odd? Well in in one sense any murder scene is probably odd but again this is where I have difficulty. I'm not sure what all's been released. There were a variety of things at the scene of the crime. Where I guess I would ask you to talk to the state police about that. They have to decide what's going to be released and what's not going to be released. It was just not. It was just not your normal. A person was killed here crime scene. That's all I can say about it. Maybe you could answer that. In a more general way without being specific to this this crime scene we have our ideas. About what a typical crime scene is person was shot in the head. The bullet casings here. In general to you they unusual on crime scene. I follow along with your example. Very first case I handled as a prosecutor attorney back in nineteen eighty seventy nine thousand nine hundred eight. A fellow shot his wife in Deer Creek Indiana and he picked her up against the refrigerator. Shot in the back of the head. She fell on the floor. He shot her twice in the chest. So you had a dead person with three bullets in them. They were dead He was seeing at the scene. You know things like that all I can say about situations Agian. Libya's that there was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene. And it's probably not what you would imagine where people think that I'm talking about it. Probably not and so because of unique circumstances which all unique circumstances of a crime or sort of signature. You think well this unusual fact might lead somebody or that unusual fact might lead to somebody and I wish I could tell you but again. That's up to the state police. There was nothing that seemed similarly identical that you think well this is modus operandi. I know you're familiar with the term modus operandi where sometimes criminals will use a commit a crime in such a way that it so distinct axes sort of signature for them. Was there a signature in his crime? Would you characterize off against A signature like without congress. What it is I would say there were two or three things that I'd say at least three. We asked me barts question a different way. Even if there are any of cases out there that you could say at. This is like this. Are there any like just generally famous famous cases or famous murderers that you compare this to? Yeah I'm not the best history of serial murders person but I will say this. Initially I thought I think most people thought and I still think that it was probably somebody local because it's just not a tourist spot. It's just not somewhere where would be lurking. It's such an unlikely place to be. You've all been there. It's not that famous. It's not like people come there and hang out. We'll maybe I'll catch two girls here by themselves. I tend to think it was a local. I still tend to think it's a local but a pardon me also as other people. Speculating think maybe it was a random murder. Maybe it is a a serial killer and it's a horrible thing but part of me hopes. Well they'll catch somebody committing some other crime or having committed some other crime and as as sometimes happened in the past. She'll serial killers. They'll confess to this crime people. Ask Me do. I think it'd be solved and I do think it'll be solved because it's so odd. So unusual and people are so compelled to talk about the terrible things they do. I think that either this person will talk about to someone or alternatively they will commit another crime and get caught and hopefully confessed to this one either because they want the fame or alternatively because they're trying to make a deal. I don't know I'm not an expert on the investigation of serial killers. Could if this person does act again. That is something that Superintendent Carter ask at press conferences. Who's next he has himself that all the time. Do you think those signature items would still. I think potentially that that one or two of those things could pop up again. Yes if you've seen the video yes what we've been told by by Shirk Lesbian Kim Riley. They haven't told us how long it was. They haven't solved two inch about what's on it but they've told us what it was like for them to watch their current relationship. You know they still go back to what. How would you describe your thoughts about well? There's two things about it and I think this is pretty. Well understood now but in the early days people would always question. Why don't they enhance this and I would explain to people. It's a still frame from video on a cell phone camera where he's not fully in the frame so there's very few pixels making up the video of this fellow. That's why it's so blurry the best people I I'm aware of did their best but there's only so much. Do you only have so much data? The audio is unbelievably good. Considering the circumstances you're outdoors and people are fairly far away though. He's pretty close probably when they got that audio. There's there's just there's less additional information that I think people would think there might being. That's that's all I'd say about it. Robert is gives us a lot to process here perspective about the crime new details about the scene and he makes it clear. He's no expert on the mind of a serial killer if that in fact is what we're dealing with so we found someone who is Mary. Ellen O'Toole spent twenty eight years at the FBI and over half of that time was in their behavior analysis unit. You probably recognize the names. Ted Kaczynski the unabomber Gary Ridgway the Green River killer. She worked on both of those and many others. So mary-ellen one of the things that we specifically wanted to talk to. You is about signatures. Can you tell us what signatures are in a general sense? Certainly signature behavior is behavior that the offender engages in a crime scene that is over and beyond what is necessary to complete the crime and a generally is behavior that is satisfying to the offender whether it's psychologically satisfying or sexually satisfying behavior. The interesting thing about signature behavior. Especially if you're talking about a series of crimes is that the offender will generally attempt to repeat the signature behavior not the IMO. The Motor stop around die. That's something different but the offender will tend to repeat the signature behaviors. Because that's why he's committing crime in the first place. I'm curious from your research and your expertise. Is it common to have multiple signatures you know is that is that normal? Well it's certainly possible to have multiple signatures at a crime scene again if we go back to the definition it is unnecessary behavior at a crime scene. Generally when you Have multiple signatures. It's because you have a series of crimes and so at this point what we have is double homicide whether or not there are other crimes out there. It's still unclear but if there is behavior at that scene that is not necessary to the crime itself so it could be sexual behavior. It could be postmortem activity but if there are signature behaviors. Yes you can have. More one or two signature behaviors are signatures typically things that happen after the murder or is there a a typical time that the signature would happen in my experience? Signature can happen at any point before or during or after the crime. So for example predatory behavior in some crimes can be a signature post mortem after the murders can also be a signature. So it could. It could occur anywhere within that temporal timeframe of crime in our chat with the prosecutor described it as odd and he also said that there was a lot of physical evidence. And I know that that's kind of a broad term but I'm curious from your standpoint as somebody who's been to you know hundreds of these kinds of scenes in what does a lot of physical evidence mean what does odd mean so. I wouldn't know what his definition of odd is odd to be an odd to this prosecutor can be two different things so let me give you a few ideas of what maybe Odd behaviors might be. It could be Again Post mortem mutilation. What's done to the victims? After they've died after they've been murdered it could include a redressing. The victims it could include dismemberment it could include insertion of foreign objects. It could be the placement and the replacement of the victim's bodies so it could be any along that continuum basically could be almost anything it could be the infliction of damage to the victims both before death or after death it could be again engaging with victims in in a certain way that is considered odd so it could be a wide variety of behaviors. You talk a little bit about how wire win a killer would stages seen would that be considered a signature well it depends on what you mean by staging a crime scene so staging crime scene in in the world that I live in means that the offender is making crime. Look like something that it's not because they want to point investigators into a totally different direction because they're concerned that they could be identified as a suspect so some people may say use that term staging to mean that the offender manipulated the bodies. Put them in a pose. That was maybe sexually arousing for him a manipulated the bodies several times sort of go along with whatever his sexual fantasies are. That's that's different than the traditional staging of a crime scene. Staging tends to be done most often by someone who knows the victims. But if you're talking about a scene where. The offender spins time there interacts with the victim postmortem and engages in behavior for his own sexual gratification. Or pleasure I wouldn't refer to that as staging that's postmortem activity That was Mariela no tool a former profiler with the SBA to be clear. We're not saying that the examples of signatures Mary Ellen uses or found at this crime scene. She's not saying that either. We just don't know so we did check in with Indiana state police about the signatures and their response is what it's been from the beginning. We do not comment on what was or was not found at the crime scene. I am a true crime fanatic podcasts documentaries scripted dramas so. I can't even tell you how excited I am for this new original series on. Cbs All access called interrogation. It's based on the true story of a young man who was charged and convicted of murdering his own mother. The lead detective on the case played by Peter. Scars GUARD IS CERTAIN. The man is guilty but is he you the viewer. Get to be the detective here and figure this out. This is cool. You can watch all the episodes in any order to follow the evidence and to determine who you actually believe stream interrogation now by signing up for a free trial of CBS. All access good. Cbs Dot com slash interrogation podcast. And try one week free that. Cbs dot com slash interrogation podcast to stream all episodes of interrogation today. Hello I'm Amy Hoggart and I'm an path which means when you ha I just as much if not more. Don't bother trying to help south. Let me up yourself for you. And what's my show? It's personal with Amy Hogan Wednesdays at ten on TV part to a crime like this before retiring Robert Dives was the chief prosecutor in Carroll County and in two thousand seventeen the one who would be shaping a case against Abbey in Libya's killer. He's sharing with us some of his experiences from those early days in the investigation. Were you ever presented with possible suspects? Not in the sense of somebody said Rob. Do you think there's enough evidence here to charge this person but in the sense of we have this and this and this what do you think yes there. There was some of that and I would go so far as to say there's at least one person probably a couple out there that I could believe could have committed the crime but of course I would never discuss such thing because you to accuse somebody something is to destroy their lives. As I've told you I not even close to thinking it's more likely than not that any particular person that I'm aware of committed this crime. Not even close to that especially early days revolve drafting lot. Fda Research and she put some sort of a number of how many were involved dozens. I mean a lot. There were a few search warrants. There weren't so many search warrants but there were lots of subpoenas in this case we were trying to get cell phone locations or numbers of cell phones or densities of cell phone numbers things like that and similar things during that period of time and we cranked out a lot of that. But it didn't lead anything significant. Let's talk cell phones for a lot of people who follow this case the locations of self specifically the ones near the Mon hybrid at the time of the murders is a meaty topic of discussion. Whose phone is pigging. Wear and why. That was a major point of interest for investigators to and how that all works. There's more to it than you might think a frustrating thing. This is probably difficult to explain. The course of podcast but the the law on searches with relation to cell phones and cell phone locations was evolving right at the time. This was going on and I think some of the people discussing. It didn't always understand like they would say well. If you want to know a cell phone location why don't you get a search warrant and the problem with that is let? Let's take? This case is a perfect example. There's a tower near the crime scene and cell phones pinged off that tower around the time of the crime. We'd like to know who they pinged off said well. Why don't you get a search warrant because there is no probable cause to believe that any particular phone is going to tell us anything about the crime? There is no probable. Cause you can't. There is no people act like a search warrant is easy to get no because we don't think any particular phone is a criminal but if we want to get a pool of twenty five people who were in the area and therefore could possibly have committed the crime you have to find out and this is the difficulty of the modern electronic world of course to look in your phone I think clearly. That's a search warrant situation. That's your private property. It's like opening your house or going in your car unit person but the location your phone. I certainly understand people's concerns about their privacy. Why can the government figure out where I am than the other hand when your two little girls are dead and you WANNA find out? Who was nearby in the last two hours? It's terrible not be able to get that information the ideas. We'll just get a search warrant that's not logically or legally practical and so this is something society has to think about more because cell phone location data can for a case like this which is a lot of what I was doing at that time could potentially be really valuable because you know Carol County Three Hundred Eighty Square Miles. Twenty Thousand People. Very few people were out near that crime scene at the time. It's not like this afternoon. You'RE GONNA YOU'RE GONNA pin on five hundred phones that period of time. There are a lot of feds looking at their cellphones too. There were more. Fbi agents here than people can imagine in my entire career. There was never in my entire career one tenth as many FBI agents as who were here simultaneously. A lot of people thought in the beginning that maybe they were lured there had been communicating with somebody in had an a meeting time or something and that there could be a link like that. That seems unlikely to me. And you're not the only one we've talked to kind of characterized that two to three day period of like. We're GONNA find this guy but I'm curious how long before everybody was kind of like This might take longer than we thought. I don't think there was ever particularly that feeling. I mean after a few weeks. I'm sure people were feeling disheartened. There were so many leads Because of the phone in system the tip system and social media and things like that police officers came from all of this Dave Indiana and would come and spend a day or two and they would just hand them assignments and would go out and so I can tell you in the very early days anytime. It'd be lead. The lead officers will get really excited. I've got to be there. They would because they think will surely about to crack this because there were what seemed to be potentially valuable leads but they just in lead anything. I don't know there's ever any point where they go. It's going to go on for a long time. I think it was more like while I surely. We're any kit something soon and that went on for a long time. I I can't speak for the thoughts of the people who are actually doing the investigating. I mean people Tony Legat and Kevin Hammond have spent endless hours on this case far more than I did. And so you worked on this case for ten months eleven months yes but particularly there was probably a stretch of a couple of months where it was. It was really intense because it isn't that there weren't always things to do but there was a period where we really were cranking out a lot of discovery material. I investigated material as I say. Subpoenas and search warrants and in that flurry of activity. Did you think we're going to get this wrapped up will with a crime like this? If you'd asked me at the time I was said within two or three days we'll figure out who did it and have a charge filed but the traditional crime a murder and Carroll County I think in Rural Indiana are probably rural. America is generally a crime of passion and the suspect is obvious and it turned out. There was no obvious suspect. And even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort or another which would lead normally to logical. Pass an investigation. It never led to a particular person so I was surprised. I am surprised I thought surely we would figure out who did it and we really couldn't do so I'm we had some good leads. There's sometimes there's at least one person who is blowing off on the Internet who was it was total Baloney. That if you've taken seriously what they're saying you might have thought they committed the crime but they didn't in fact it was a person under age see didn't have like two or three people you're looking at early on like it's definitely one of them. No I could imagine that there were people that came up in the course of the investigation. That could have possibly committed the crime but I certainly never had anybody. I thought it was more likely than not committed. The crime you mentioned earlier on a few minutes ago about you know in the in the hours after thinking. This was kind of a two to three days. You'd probably be able to have somebody in custody. Are there any reasons why you felt? It was at timeframe. Well only in the sense. This sense is that I've been involved in the county. This is probably isn't murderer. Every two or three years and I've been involved in the prosecution. Numerous murders and there may have been twenty years ago unsolved murder involving a couple that were found in a burned out car. I can't think of another unsolved murder. When people died under violent circumstances we knew who did it or we were pretty sure we knew who did it. Very quickly thereafter. It's usually obvious either. They're right there or the person with the motive affair in law enforcement is the obvious person didn't do it. Which is what a lot of crime. Fiction is about but generally the person who obviously did it did in fact do it and we didn't find that person and that was surprising to me but in hindsight knowing that this is not your ordinary case right after this or in the months after we had a love triangle murder. It was just absolutely classic. And you knew who probably did it and it was just a question of putting the pieces together. It was obvious and that's generally the way a murder goes the best of my knowledge. We never had a stranger murder while I was. Prosecuting is processing attorney in this county over the course of several different times this process. You're eighteen years. There was never a murder where the victim didn't know the perpetrator prior to the crime. We'll be back with more from Robert. Ives part three plenty of physical evidence back now to former Carroll County prosecuting attorney Robert. Ives giving us a look at the early days of the investigation. One thing that people don't understand is that investigators make decisions about releasing evidence not releasing evidence. Because they don't want to give the game away and if a person does confess they want to know that the person is not giving a false confession. You're not seeking publicity. They're not mentally ill and so I don't know what all the reasoning of the people in charge of the investigation is but I'm just a lawyer. I would leave it to them to determine what the best things to release and not release. Try Be really careful about it right and also with the tips they can you know better identify what might be a really good tip. Of course somebody knows something them something that has not been released. You're saying yes if if somebody calls in a tip and know something that the public doesn't know correct that makes it a tremendously good tip. Right was the physical evidence you're talking about. Was that one of the reasons why there seemed to be a feeling that this would be a few days before you had made been able to make an arrest or have custody. I think any time a teenage girl was found murdered or junior high girl and they were teenagers was found murdered. I think we would expect to find who did it within two or three days anytime so that was the main reason. I say that the fact there were two girls and as I say the fact there was plenty of physical evidence. It wasn't very mysterious. How do I if if a person is simply kill like I was describing it? I these know okay. This person was killed persons. Killed with gun. There's more to it than that. That's all say one thing that surgeon rightly told us is. The crime scene was complicated in that they're searching other things that we needed to think of big Whatever obviously we know the Craxi this huge starts at the bridge does to revise without even just generally. Have you ever dealt with a crime scene? That Larnaca daddy complicating factors before as I told you I. I've only dealt with a few murder cases but generally a crime scene a murder crime scene. Here's been in a room. It's been in a place yet so I can't recall one. That had a big outdoor circumstance away from a house yet. There's a lot of you're right. Those are some factors in and whatever sergeant Riley says it is so a Kim. Riley is an excellent police officer and that's also true. The crime scene is unquestionably contaminated. Almost crime scenes are contaminated to certain extent of the subject of DNA. The police have said nothing to us about getting this particular case. We won't ask about that but just your experience the role of DNA in a case people think dianetics CBS. I think like you know so the idea is. It's not that simple is now you know we have incredible technology and there's contact DNA so people even touch clothing but of course lots of people touch your clothing so there's lots of DNA and it may not be there at all In win in sexual assault cases I mean semen and the DNA from seamen is tremendous evidence. But you have to have that and then you have to have somebody who can identify with blood blood as tremendous evidence because the perpetrators of crimes often leave their blood at crime scenes for variety of reasons. But when you're just thinking oh there's contact as somebody brush somebody somebody touch somebody. Well that's really. There's a really a lot of stuff there to sort it out. Find out particularly it's unknown and then to match it unknown even if it is an unknown person that doesn't mean they committed the crime and and you'd look at these two. I mean these are two girls their school day. I mean there's no telling how many people's DNA might be on their clothing. We've talked a lot about this crime. And it being the possibility of one of those crimes where the person who committed it just managed to step into all the right places to avoid being arrested not necessarily a mastermind that had some sort of grand scheme that has allowed him to get away with this. Would you characterize this? Crime is something where the guy just you? I think upton all the right places if you look at the overhead photos of this area there was maybe one house could look down and see the crime scene and it's unlikely anybody would be there be. This was a daylight crime. It appears almost certainly a a crime during daylight in an area where people could have come along and I just can't see it as a big master plan. It'd be a crazy master plan. I think it's more person committed a horrible crime and then they took off and nobody or if anybody saw them. We haven't been able to pinpoint people were seen coming and going and there are some witnesses that and we may well have seen out and I say we someone may have seen this person leaving the crime scene or going to the crime scene. But we've never been able to put that information together with enough evidence to show who that person was and that the committed this crime. I do not believe it was a plan crime. I personally eight doesn't make any sense for me for it to plan crime because you couldn't no unless there's something else out there you know. This luring thing as I told you I hope the state police said this item losing evidence. They were lured out there. I think they just decided to go for a walk. They're great friends they saw. It's a nice day. Let's go walk the trail. I think that's all it happened. And so for somebody to be there right then to know they'd be there. I don't believe it. I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out. It was wrong but I don't believe someone knew that they were going to be. There will walk by you. Look at it especially if you get past the creaky. You're in the trees. It's almost like the perfect trap away. Someone walks out there. You're already out there. No wants to see if you're on the far side of the bridge. There's not a logical place to go when you think about this. In hindsight you think well the girls should have run two different directions. Of course they should have. But that's easy for us to send. Yeah no you're not sure I would think of that age and certainly not Joe. It's to be up so high for her to pull out her phone and to film this video. It was an amazing thing. We're it's really heartbreaking about this. She did this thing. We have this unbelievable evidence of video and sound of this person. Did Not build a catch. The person I and I we didn't talk about that previously. But of course for the police. That's what stunt. How can we not figure out who this is? How are you gonNA have video and audio of a person about to commit a crime and not be able to figure out who did this? Tv Show After five chapters. Here's where we are. Police won't say how abby were killed but the crime scene has been characterized as odd and we know the killer left signatures at that crime scene. We also know that libby took a video of her killer approaching them on the bridge. We've even seen and heard parts of it and no one knows who he is. Police have released a still photo and soon will learn about a couple of sketches and despite a nationwide effort to locate the man on that bridge. No one's been identified and state. Police ask who's next so now you have to this point all the information that's been released in this case plus a little bit more. That wasn't but in order to connect all of those dots for all of that information to make some sense. You need to go there. And then up on the right we will come upon necked Red Gate. That is the Nature preserve entrance. And that's were Kelsey dropped. Abby would be off so next time we're making that trip we're taking you Adelphi down. The Hill is written and produced by Barbara McDonnell. Andrew Aydin and meet Dan Cemetery with original music and scoring by Shuo Sir and production support from associate producers. Michael Dudley Kaelin Chassis. If you WANNA see the people places and things we're talking about visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT COM. Brian Bell is H. L. Lead senior director of programming and Tyler. Moody is the Vice President of Warner media. Podcast network Sherry. Selby's is our senior production manager. A LOT OF FOLKS AT H. O. Annon CNN worked very hard to help. Make this show go and we wanted to give fix to them to also a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime the most important of all we want to thank you for listening. We hope you join US next time.

murder Carroll county Fbi attorney Robert prosecutor Delphi CBS Robert Ives Agian Libby Andrew Aydin Indiana Libya Mary Ellen Kim Riley Mcclellan H. Orleans
Chapter 2: The Day Delphi Changed

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

1:12:13 hr | 1 year ago

Chapter 2: The Day Delphi Changed

"What's the one thing you've never told anyone people just like you tell all in a podcast called the secret room if you're a true story fan and you cannot not get enough of people's most intimate dreams desires in shame? You will love the secret. Room like meals deathbed confession that our daughter's absent father the movie star. I wish I could tell someone who the father is. While I'm still on earth. Were Jen secret. Love affair with a man on death. Row It's tearing my world upside down and something then. He just has devastated me or the way that Joey falls in love with inanimate objects I know people who were in relationships with construction equipment. People all around you carry the most amazing secrets. You're invited to the secret room for a front row seat to spectacular stories. That will touch you jar. You into macy's. I'm Ben Ham your host search for the secret room. A podcast about the stories. No one ever tells so if you want to see some of the people in places we're talking about in the show visit our website it down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM. What did you see when you got out here that day? There was a lot happening at that time. There was still a huge huge response from this local community. which by the way as though is an extraordinary place There was a flurry the of law enforcement activity from agencies. All over as people would expect in as we've come to expect internally and I can just see the complexity of people's faces on their in their comments and the way they looked and the way they acted in the way they walked and because it it rocked us community and remember it was on the heels of the flora fire that killed those those four little girls in flora in the same county in the same rural county in the middle of America. You know so a lot of tragedy ajete tragedy a lot of sadness. A lot of her pain and sorrow I knew we were going to have a heavy burden. I just knew we were going to have a heavy burden Part of that was because of what the expectations would be coordinating event investigation of this. That's this complex I lost finger on my my personally my mind but as I looked around and I saw what was happening everyone knew that we were up to the task. There's a difference between up for the task and ready for the task. Twenty four hours after Abigail Williams and liberty German went missing what Doug Carter and his officers were about to see and learn well years later. It's still keeps them up at night near the waters of Deer Creek and Delphi less than a quarter mile from the bridge. Libya's sister Kelsey here searchers. Discover a black Nike Shoe. The same kind livy had been wearing the day before seconds later in a ravine filled with leaves volunteers in the search party. Find Two bodies. Police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken in just before both girls disappeared the announcement that the girls have been found in small to a good end. We are investigating. This is a trying seen. We suspect trek foul play. Law Enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. It was right before she was murdered. We have a we have a still photograph autograph. We have sound on this person's it could be half the white males and Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely had interviewed you. We know that this is about power to you. You want to know what we know in one day you will it down the hill. The Delphi murderers I'm Andrew Ayden and I'm Barbara McDonnell and we're here in the writer's Room at CNN center and Barbas we look at this case where we are in the time line. Here's what we know. Two Girls Abigail Williams and liberty German thirteen and fourteen have been murdered. We know that these girls went missing late in the afternoon soon and we also know that their bodies were found just a short distance from that bridge on some private property and at this point there's a lot of action at the crime scene. It's a little bit chaotic. Their state police local police sheriffs department fire department. So it's getting a little chaotic as you might imagine. And it's a gruesome scene. Many of those officers told us that it's something they're not going to be able to unseat and this is where the questions are beginning. Where were these girls killed? How were they killed? And why why did this even happen. We've spent months looking into this. We've made several trips to Delphi. We have talked to dozens of people. And and we're not trying to solve this case what we're trying to do is really understand it and to understand. Can this be solved. What actually happened out air in those woods that day and who did it and it's important to note that that point about not trying to solve this because there's a lot of complexities here? We've talked about about a lot of things that over the course of the story as it unravels. Some things are clear. Some things are some things that are blurry then become clear the things that are clear they then become blurry again. There's a lot of moving parts so barb it's important to note that at this point in our story. This is when everything changes you have a community that has been traumatized. You have families that are traumatized and at the same time you have multiple law enforcement agencies that are beginning a double murder investigation in earnest. And the other thing changing is Valentine's Day it's February fourteenth. That will never be the same and so as we're trying to make sense of the story this is when that starts for everybody else Delphi to part one. We didn't win this one trying to think what the word is because it's not exasperation confusion infusion. I don't know it's hard to describe. It's a shock and that's probably the best way to describe it. Something that was unexpected. You knew as a possibility that girls go out there then Sabar. We've talked talked about a lot of the things involved in this case and the factors that make it stand out unlike others and one of the things that really makes this thing different from others is that there are family members that are virtually at the crime scene when the girls were found in organized search which parties out there looking for Ambien Libby. When there's a discovery and as pick up our story becky and Kelsey are both out at the crime scene? In those organized search parties we have other family members at the command center fire. Chief Daryl starret is at the firehouse firehouse. That has become this command center. And he's taking care of his fire. Crews who are out at the scene and this is like a forty forty minute window of time where for a lot of these family members not only is it the worst possible news. They're ever GONNA here but I would imagine a lot of them look at their lives before this forty minutes and after this forty minutes changed everything so that starts with Libya Sister Kelsey who had just learn to look at the moment. I wanted to find across the creek and get to them I was like they're alive. I know they are. They have to be Until somebody said something else and I. I knew that they weren't in that moment. I was with another lady who actually lost her brother in high school and she just hugged me until I've it calms down Chelsea's grandmother Becky. Patty is also searching along the trails and Kelsey Grandfather Mike. Patty is at the fire station. And here's the call come in from searchers said they may have found the girls you know out near the high bridge and jumped Mitrokhin gross rate out there and come upon becky and in my family was already there and we want to well known them. At that point. They've been found but because again we had some friends that actually we're in a search party that found him and I talked to him a little bed and they've been found is it's almost like disbelief belief in all. You don't want to believe this. I remember getting Becky and saying okay. Let's snow good for us here. I remember relieving number stopping seeing friends of mine who are in search parties just lined up along the road and then when I talked to buddy of mine. WHO's in the search party? You found something horrible had happened. I mean that at the same time time share of Carroll County gets the news So when you heard they were found what did you. How did your mind process that? What did you think must have happened? Well being yeah. You're you're right. I mean being that. Close A to a a stream that can be unpredictable sometimes You know not having those initial answers in our thinking they gave que did they. Did they drown you. Know where where specifically were they found. You know all those types of questions questions had been answered at that point it all and of course being law enforcement we had to at least in our own minds have thought run through our our minds Okay were they you know was was our criminal activity occurred here so yeah. They're just a large amount of various on unanswered questions at that stage. And when did you find out that this looks like foul playing. It wasn't long after in that initial call actually say within as I recall within the hour of getting the initial one and Put all different twist on the whole scenario for Sobat stage. And what does that do to these men gathered at the firehouse. You said that with that I call it. You could hear a pin drop as it becomes known that this is looking like a crime. Is it still quiet as I recall. Yes I think that again that first hour to to allow it to to set in like that first hour. Yes there was for me. It was disbelief but eventually Not long after that then our our instincts in our training kicked in and we went into investigative mode it quickly it becomes clear. This is different. This will need more experience more tools and more expertise in Carroll County has and I know that if if I put out the caller even Doug Carter even the FBI or to put out that call. Hey we need you know this this and this The someone's going respond to us because that's that's where profession works. Doug Carter at the start of each chapter of this podcast. You'll hear his voice because he's one of the key the people in this case. He's the superintendent of the Indiana state. Police and his part of the story really starts here. He's about to launch a full-scale double murder investigation allegation. And it's clear when you talk to him that this is the case he will solve it. It's a mission. He's hell bent on finishing. I just received a phone call. Aw that we believe we believe. We found the two bodies of two girls. We didn't know who they were exactly at the time I immediately left left. I mean left downtown Indianapolis in drove to to Delphi to the crime scene and we had a significant response. Rate Aviation assets on the way everything every kind of specialty the ISP has to offer to the local community. So we responded with all we had also leaving. Indianapolis is Sergeant Kim Riley. He's a state police spokesman and in a few hours will be giving the first press briefing on the way up. I was making calls to some of our investigators gators trying to find out what they knew and basically most of them hadn't even got to the scene. Either when you realize the state police post is about thirty minutes away from Matt Location I realize most of them probably were running with lights assigned to get up there as soon as possible because it was an emergency situation. I mean it was something here. We got two young young girls have been murdered. We didn't know how we know. Why would we hit? It didn't have any answers at that point in time Williams's Abbie's mother. She spent most of the morning at the firehouse waiting for any word about her daughter. And then the word comes so pastor. Todd found me and Said willing to go upstairs stairs and before the words came out of his mouth. I knew that this was not a happy thing I didn't know all the details then as to what was going nine but it definitely wasn't positive era remember that remember his words. That's kind of blurry it it was They believe that they have found the girls. And they're they're not with US and I remember after that I was so upset because the last three years that she had been at church camp. She kept asking get baptized. Nice now. I wanted to do when we're all here together as a family and the first thing I said I said never got. He's like here. Daughter gave her heart to the Lord and she with them today. And you know that and from that moment on head to toe it would wash in new new no matter what and Okay and I've stayed with that. This is temporary two hundred miles away. Libya's Mom Kerry timmons decided for Delphi. When her Sunday's my brother called me and he's security? I'm seeing some really disturbing things on face so my brother says you need to call. Becky refuse just flat. No I I think now that was like if I don't call her. It's not true through. Its not so called Kelsey. I don't know why in my mind that was different but I called Kelsey. She unanswered and I so I kept calling probably they call it ten times. No answer so I had jumped in the car and I was on my way to the gas station. Fine if they're not gonNA call me I'm on my way and I was probably four or five blocks away from the gas station. They may phone rang. And it was Kelsey is number that popped up and so I was expecting I answer the phone to hear Kelsey say mom. We found her. And it was Derek. And you're GonNa really talk much at that point So it's kind of a shock for him to be on the phone and he said and they found the curls. I had like a split second. But he didn't say anything else else. I was like okay. No I think I was like prime primal evil evolve just came out of me screaming. Now her they live man and he said no and I don't know how I made it to the gas station. I was hysterical. People were staring at me and I just wanted to disappear Way had pulled up on the wrong side of the gas pump. Here I was outside the pumps creaming What do you get the nozzle in pain? 'cause I wasn't even there. I remember I was on my lunch break. And it was coming back from work and my Boston stumped me at the door and she was like I think you need to go home. Kelsey and Libya's cousin Mercedes Audi she goes by sadie finds out to you. She's just a few years older and grew up with the girls and I was like for what. And she's like. Well the News said and so so I rushed back home. I picked up my cousin and we went to the fire station. which is a hot mess? I mean we will all were hotness and and then they came in and said that they had found two bodies they didn't say who they were or what they were and then that's kind of when the reality awesome game like something had had happened. Meanwhile becky Patty is in a search party. A friend friend of ours. WHO's in also one of the search groups that was across the creek and he saw something so he took his phone zoomed in an and it was tied aisher and he knew what libby war and His wife she come back and she said they they found the girls girls. While I was kind of excited you know then it hit me said are they. Okay Chew in the answer so I I knew that they found him so we hurried up and jumped in our cars and went back to the trail head and one of the firemen was there and I said you need to take. You need to take me to be now. You need to take. She's going to need me. They wouldn't let us go close. They wouldn't take they wouldn't take me. So that's what did he come up. Says you need we need to. We need to go to the to the truck and while we were sitting in the truck the corners fan trying to buy. That's when you realized this is real. This isn't a steak at really just for him. They couldn't say it was them. But everybody knew was Anna Williams. William's is still at the firehouse names. Like maybe it's not them and that lasted like ten seconds. I'm like no who else would it be. He I mean we knew I knew but there was still that ten fifteen seconds where you just pope You Know Oh. My closest friends and co-workers were standing outside and I walked down there and like Oh there you are we were looking for you and I and She said what's going on. I said they she's like Oh thank God and I just shook my head shoes psych own and we just stood there. I mean we're distant. Chuck distant make any sense. The search is over. Fire Chief Daryl. All stare at is dealing with the gravity telling hundreds of volunteers that they're no longer needed. Of course you have to stay focused on and you have to keep it together while you told two hundred people that we didn't win this and I came back inside our little commands man's circle downstairs and I had to go into our utility closet to collect myself but then again you're only allowed so much time for you have to come back out and be who you're supposed to be and keep it together because if you lose it man everybody around you is going to lose it and waited because I knew my guys would be trickling back in eventually really and I did not want them to decompress in front of the public and I wanted to keep the public away from them I didn't know which of my guys had been dude. The scene but I knew they had all been out there. It was found the scene. I was told that it was a private citizen. That's all I was told but I know now after the fact a couple of my guys is had been there shortly after the discovery. And that's why I wanted to be here when they came back because I know what they do and they're stressed out and did not want that to happen with as much as we have here and now one died wanted to keep them separate from the public and the public they mean no disrespect. They mean no harm. They don't understand what these you guys actually face and few touch. That nerve happens so a couple of guys were on and and one of my most. I was loyal pardoned. Bagai came in and I put myself between him and the crowd and he started talking to just go outside of the engine. Go the other side of the engine and we went audio side of the engine which I had roped off just four them and he started taking boots off and stuff and I just said I don't even remember what comment was but it alluded to the fact booth. There was not good and he didn't know and he it's hard to see a guy that talk for not strong breakdown and just lose. These guys are all hard. Barb were back here in the writer's room CNN center and thinking about where we are in the story a couple of conversations we had that I remember distinctly and one of those was with Mike Patty in the garage of his home. We sat there and had a two hour interview with him and I remember asking him about when they found out that the girls had been found what was their next move. Did they go to church to go home. He had to think about it for a second. He couldn't really remember and he said something. The effect of how I don't know we just I I don't really know and so it really is kind of a microcosm of where we are here for the families. Because it's a really blurry moment and it's going to stay blurry for them for a while but the group that needs really laser sharp focus right now. It's the investigators because they are jumping right in and both feet into this double murder homicide investigation. There's a killer on the loose. They're gonNA find this guy the clock's ticking Hey everyone it's Dan simply safe home. Security is the highest level of security. You can have with. Police dispatch up to three hundred fifty percent faster than a normal burglar alarm with simplisafe. You get comprehensive protection for your home outdoor we're cameras and doorbells alert you to anyone approaching your home and entry motion and glass break. Sensors guard the inside. If there's a break in they use real video video evidence to give police an eyewitness accounts of the crime plus simply safe protects your home from fire water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning to and it's all monitored twenty four seven by live security professionals. You can set it up yourself no tolls needed or they can do it for you. It's only fifty cents per the day with no contracts you'll get free shipping and a sixty day risk free trial. You've got nothing to lose. Go now and be sure you go to simplisafe safe dot com slash D t h so that they know we sent you that simplisafe dot com slash D t h part two three hundred feet away. One point join the state police taken over fodder station. We'll get better get trucks out if we needed to and we have conversations and we got that figured figured out and I think they ended up with a pretty good infrastructure to build off conduct the investigation Tree you mentioned the clock is ticking. I forty eight hours are significant and any murder investigation any law enforcement. It's been agency will tell you that if they're going to make an arrest the first forty eight hours the most pivotal time and so yeah. The clock is ticking. They're jumping into this and they're trying to make sense of this crime scene that they know where the girls were found on private property. Operti they don't know at this point they're going to learn soon enough that that crime scene stretches about a quarter of a mile back to the bridge so so they're dealing with a very very large area here that they have to start going through with a fine tooth comb essentially leaves heels roles water. Yeah this is not an easy crime scene to manage and so the other thing to note is that logistically getting out there with the the resources that are required isn't easy either and so you know one of the one of the folks with the ISP that we spoke with was even talking about from a logistical standpoint. The Cell Towers in the area couldn't really handle the bandwidth of Cell phones police scanners communication equipment so they had to bring in mobile command centers just to handle that infrastructure and so the crime scenes complex the logistics complex. It's in its rural Indiana. So there's is a lot of hurdles they have to clear your and that's what's going on when the Superintendent of State police gets on-scene I saw fear in people's eyes not even anger at that point because again we didn't confirm the firm. That was having libby pretty obvious though. I think most people knew that I was horror. The things that I'm thinking in my mind is are we sustain this Would ask us. Do we need. That aren't here. Wants to hear. How do we keep them logistics behind? That is how my mind thinks I had an intermediate conversation with my boss. Governor the State of Indiana and I knew he would say what he did but anything thing that community needs the answer is of course. Yes the the law enforcement response to local law enforcement response. I knew that it's a sense. It's a very rural the area that it was going to require tremendous response from St Place. I know what their limitations are in something against them. They do the best they can. And they've done a really nice job but they have detectives in though county so we jumped in one of those men jumping in as public information. Asian officer Sergeant Kim Riley Sergeant Riley knows this area. He patrolled at earlier in his career. His first hurdle is trying to understand the scope of the crime. I'm seen and his first impressions. I saw a lot of people that with blank. Look on her face of people that are just wondering. Why did this happen? Who would do such A? The thing is what I was talking to. The officers had got to the scene and I was trying to get some information. They were looking the same way the way the girls were found how they were found and what had happened to him. It was just a lot of things we're going through their minds and just trying to figure out the crime scene you know is it here is there. What how much of a crime scene do we have here? And that was one of the questions. It was being discussed to how how big of a crime scene if we got what are we. What are we dealing with breath? How much evidence have we got here deal with those things that were going through the minds? I I know the investigators. The crime scene technicians had already arrived so they were starting to look at the crime scene to see what they could do you so once the girls were found. There's you said a couple hundred people had been out there looking for them so the girls are found. You begin to secure off that area. What is that process like? And how do you get those people out of there. Well actually we don't WANNA get too far out because we WANNA make sure and keep them Close by because we first we have to interview him to see what they found what they did at the scene get any pertinent information from them that we can get their name address address phone number so we can get you know later on in the investigation if we need more information or if we need you know whatever from them we can get a hold of them and get that information may basically all gave a statement which is basically protocol on any type of a crime scene at somebody would walk on and that's basically weekly what we did with the people that were there and then we just try to figure out at that point time. How big is this crime scene going to be? I mean if if you've never been there you gotta remember. WE'RE IN INDIANA. Were in central Indiana nurse. The ravines are not deep here but we do have ravines small hills and there was basically a creek that ran through there right real close to the crime scene it was down in the lower gully. I guess you'd call it where the bodies were found to hills on each side and plus one on the side of the creek so trying to figure out. Where do they come from? How did they get here? which way did the suspect or suspects go Those are all things that they're trying to figure out to see how large of a crime scene they gotta make and the crime scene begins on the bridge well. The crime scene originally started were were. We found the bodies because that was all the crime scene. We knew at that point in time as we found evidence and looked into things found the phone. That's when we've realized the crime scene actually did start to bridge so we now we have to back up even more to bring that bridge into into the crime scene so now we've got it. We're moving from from the crime scene from maybe third of an Acre. Now we're talking because it's walking. It's about a quarter of a mile from where the bodies were found to where the video radio was taken and so trying to figure out. Okay where did they walk and you got to remember. You had four or five hundred people started looking for these girls tonight before. So Oh you know we had the deal with that because we tracks right a lot of tracks cigarette butts bleeding discounters discussing but that you had spit. People would urinate. Because they don't have time to go back so they go hide in the woods to go to bathroom that kind of stuff so we had to deal with all that and and most people don't even think things like that but in when you're trying to process a crime scene gotta remember the spring of the year or late winter in in February. You got all the leaves on the ground. We basically had to turn ever leave over from the crime scene. All the way up the whole thing and I don't mean we turn everyone but I mean it was just that dramatic of a crime. That's what took so long. That's a time when when thoughtful reason must kick in that emotion because we know we have. We have one time to do this right superintendent. Doug Carter that was a challenge to try and calm air ticket. Take a step back from this. We brought in. I think five maybe six crime scene technicians in our job at that point was to build a fence around around this one on figuratively. And do everything we need to support them. The crashing very complicated compared to other investigations. She deal where it is commonly known that it that it includes The Mona Hybrid. It includes the the trail head. We've been there too cool little bench there to sit on and reflect. If you haven't done Ed Lee we actually we. We just did it the other day. I spent some time there too. It's nice. Isn't it very reflective so the everywhere from the trail head on that's all I can say about the crime scene so we we kinda got a break. I guess you'd say we I didn't have to deal with the snow storm. We didn't have to deal with in rain So we were able to process that and get it. Get it done as quickly as we could. But there's still took a long time to do. Are you confident that you recovered everything that could have been recovered there. I believe we done the best we could do. I'm not going to say we didn't Miss Anything. Yeah I mean we're human beings we're going to miss things but overall I mean the way they did it one guy would check over. Somebody else's says work to see if there was anything they felt that they missed. And so it was. I mean it wasn't just one crime scene technician doing this are people were there. We had other departments that had people there. It was a joint effort effort in collecting this and then there was people that came in after that just to make sure we we covered everything they started at sunrise and didn't quit Til way past nine ten o'clock so it wasn't like they didn't weren't there and then we had guards or other troopers and sheriff's departments. That helped secure the scenes when they were gone. So that we didn't have somebody they walk in and you know trying to get pictures or do something it was it was well secured and you said this was an area you had had had patrolled as a trooper it earlier in your career. You're familiar with the area. You know some of these people your father a grandfather in addition to being a cop what is going through your head as you're out there. Well I didn't go up to the crime scene. There was one ridge you could actually go to and I stood on that Ridge and I could. I could see the crime scene. It was still probably two to three hundred feet away from me. I could see the crime scene but I didn't feel comfortable comfortable. I didn't want to go to the crimes I didn't want to be somebody that would contaminate something and I. It's one of the things why we keep people out but just looking at those uh-huh two young girls laying there on Brown It just it brought memories of my daughters when they were that age and how. Oh I would feel if I was her father. It was very emotional for me and like I said I didn't know their parents at that time but I knew a lot of people in Delphi and a lot of people that were in the search party. I knew a lot of those people but had been like I said it'd probably be in fifteen twenty years since I've been there so it was kind of I WANNA use the word reunion. But it was. It was a time where I could they would interact with me. And I was interacting with them to try to get their feelings of what their feelings were. And what what you know what I was going through from small town also so knowing how small town works in central United States made a big difference on how I reacted now. I was feeling what could feel their pain. But then no they're paying that makes sense and the that was tough knowing that Basically we're going to make this is going to be short sweet. We don't have that much at this point in time basically while we've got We have found two bodies in deer creek about a mile east of town. We are investigating this. As as a Francine. We suspect foul play. We have not made positive any indication of the two bodies so we're not going to be releasing any information on them at this point in time we've got the Indiana state places assisting the Carroll County Sheriff's Department and the Delphi City Police Department and the investigation here we also have the FBI Crime Scene Investigation Group here out of Indianapolis and one thing they family asked us to do is to thank all the communities around Delphi and the people you're adult by or assisting in attempting to locate these. The two young children that were missing earlier they just wanted to say thank you to those people and thank you just wanted to express express their gratitude toward the hard work was done in helping search these children surgeon Kim. Riley doesn't say that girls names names in that press conference but everyone knows and as the announcement makes its way across town. Abby and Libya's friends and teachers are in class they're about to find out Todd lad learning. His services are needed there to receive a phone call from the school corporation. Asking for me to have my staff come over and help with. The school responsible is in session on Tuesday schools day. They had been out when the girls went. Missing but on Tuesday was a normal day with school just hover on that day I am so I responded to that. I can't be there. I'm with families right now but also my staff over a interestingly enough my staff had already gone over it altogether at the Middle School Library and will interestingly enough. Because we're small close knit town. Many other councillors were already there. Many of the pastors were already there at the school. Talk with kids and encourage them so that was the next step to make sure that that piece was covered. The other piece was a bit of care for the media as well the point in time. Where do we have a press conference? What do we do so we talked about having that downstairs in the city building help ensure with the media? Here's why you'll setup here's where the police will set and is just kind of things are happening. All at once. Erica Gibson. You'll remember is good friends with both abby and Libby and if you saw Erica in Libya together you'd swear they were twins on the afternoon of the fourteenth. She sitting in class waiting for news. Who pulled did you class? Our counselor pulled us out of class to tell us that they found them. And what did they. What did the Counselor Stadium? She didn't say anything She pulled us out. We are in health class six hour. She pulled us out and we walked into the office and my dad's standing there like because he was on the search party eighty he was standing there on his clothes. And then her mom was in her scrubs and we just now they d they didn't even have to say anything like we just now and so then. They took us to the principal's office to calm us down. And what did that feel like for you heartbroken. It was terrible. It will something thing I never wish on anybody at all especially like after route we went into the library and A bunch of the kids in our grade were there and they were just sobbing and we're having a circle talking to pastors and stuff like that already and like some of the kids. I like boys. I've never seen show show any emotion. They were distraught and it was really sad. Really Bad Hauer the adults or did they seem as heartbroken as you yes One of my favorite teachers came in a little bit after she after I got called out of her class in stuff she actually asked if someone could watch her class so she could be in the library with us. 'cause she was our eighth grade teacher at the end zone but she was the math bowl coach too so she was also close to run that way in she's came in we just all sat in Hugger and I mean it was terrible. The next few days really bad dogs come in and that was nice and you mean like comfort animals. Yes we had the support at the school. We really did No one had specifically told me I just kind of figured it out based on clues around the hallway when kids were crying. Cynthia Rossi is also a friend of Abby and libby. We met her in the last chapter. And when you talk to today it's clear she had to grow up quickly and this is where it starts. They had started Taking kids in putting them into the librarian they had counselors there and and I knew when I saw like all the different visitor passes in like people crying school officials walking around all over the place I knew that It probably hadn't ended well and did you ask anybody what was happening or what happened next for you. I didn't ask anybody because I just kind kind of had this feeling and then I went into the library with my friends in. We just talked with some of our teachers about them or their pastors actors. There at the moon. Yeah so what's going through your mind finding out that your friends are missing. Now they've been found and it's not good. I think it was just a type of person where I WANNA be there for other people so I was just mostly like consoling my friends in making sure that they are okay in I kind of regret. Correct that because it's like the analogy that if you keep like if you have a cup full of water and you just keep pouring to other people you don't have any left for yourself so I I was so worried about other people and I wish I would have taken that time to you. Know sit down and ask myself are you okay. Are you ready to deal with this. Rather than just talking to people like that whole night I stayed up in talk to friends in their family members in my family members where I wish that I would just let myself self deal with it and just take some time away from my phone away from social media away from everyone in just decompress and let myself I self deal with it and I said listen your babies and you don't know how to deal with this 'cause I don't know how to deal with this. That's Christine Lang. She's one of Abbey. And Abe's teachers and she's dealt with a lot of things in her classroom but never this. I said absolutely no one. You don't you don't have a class in college that talks about what you you do want student passes away from from any reason and you and I both know it's just out of order we. We shouldn't bury our babies or our grand babies and so everyone was mrs trying to love each other. The detects that you got that they had been found was that. Did you get the notification that they had passed ast from something horrific or was that. They've been found they passed away It was just. She was out there. I think a family member of hers was helping and no and I will say. I don't think we really knew nor do we know all the details and I don't want to and that's not my business But then I think by the time people were gathering in the library that it had come to be known that there was some wrongdoing. I don't know that the kids or even I. I was aware that day of how horrible it was. It is hearing these kids and these teachers talk about learning of abuse deaths. I am reminded that there is a very big difference between them learning that they're dead and learning that it was murder and what goes with that. And how shocking. That must be that two of your friends disappear. And now they're dead and even though we haven't heard the police officially say that this is abby and Libya that had been found. Everybody knows that everybody's operating at this point as if it is abby and libby. Why don't you think they announced them officially early on? I'm not entirely sure. Yeah I think though that they realize they're dealing with something different here and they're going by the book. The bodies need to be taken to Tara hope for for the autopsy. And that's usually when the official ID process comes about well and while that ide- still needs to be made the investigation. Gatien is is kind of kicking off here with multiple jurisdictions and agencies because Carroll County in the sheriff's office there will probably be the first to tell you we don't necessarily have the resources or the experience to handle or the budget or the budget to handle something. Like exactly and Indiana Indiana state. Police have access to so many more resources around the state and even outside of the state they have. The governor's Office on board. And so we'll see that sort of change change of hands with this investigation and I think that having all of those agencies there that early is also symbolic of were dealing. It was something different here. This is not a routine case. That's being investigated. Something entirely different that the town is also learning again trying to determine how long before they take their first four Hey everyone it's Dan. While we were in Delphi. We spoke to a lot of people. They had many many amazing conversations so many in fact that we weren't able to fit them all in the show one thing that we feel very strongly about though is including a picture of who libby German Abby Williams. Were there the victims of this horrible crime. Yes but we don't think that's what you define them. What should are the details of what made them incredible people and the last chapter? We learned a little bit about abby from her mom and Williams this chapter. We'll meet libby. Here's her mom carried Timmons. She was just this sunshine. Day always wanted everybody to laugh. Never wanted anyone to feel bad about themselves so she would always like so complementing someone but at the same time we could sit back and tease and joke and make fun. People Watch and she was just your typical Kohl all around good kid fun to be around always on the go always wanted to help someone or do something you know. What can we do to make you happy today? Day kind of person always jokin and strangely. Even though she was my fourteen year old daughter she would be who. I would go to for advice a lot of times wise beyond her years I was going through a divorce at the time leading up to February. Twenty seventeen and and she would call me just to check up on me. Make sure you know how are you doing today. And if I would talk to her about what was going on she always just had the wisest. Is this things to say. And I'm like how do you even have never even been in a relationship. How do you know so much? And she would say. Sometimes when I'm in my room I just think about what my life I will be like when I'm over. What if my husband came home one day and he was mad at me how I would fix the situation? I'm glad she was able to do that because obviously she's not going to get that cheese to grow up in being those relationships. I was almost like she already knew. She knew what life was. Supposed to be like accuse. Happy we'll have some more special moments in the next chapter for now though. Okay let's get back to the show Three allowed to be angry. I don't know if anybody knew what to do you. And if there is anything that you could do that would be perfect You have an instance that hasn't happened in the city of Delphi. We've had murders but nothing like this and then to have one that attracts not only local coverage. which would be expected but to have national or international coverage? Is something that we weren't prepared for and I don't know if anybody's prepared for more. Barb there's a period after these crimes that were after the initial shock which can last a long time obviously obviously but after the initial shock of learning what happened and accepting what's happening. The families have to process this and have to begin begin to think about moving ahead logistically things like that planning funerals but there's a processing period that goes on and we're about to hear some of the the sort of stumbles with that in the early hours of that process for these families and there's a lot of activities tippety still going on here. We have all of the law enforcement in place to begin this investigation. And we also have media from all over the state of Indiana and outside side of the state now taking an interest in this and starting to call Kim Riley and get to the area themselves. It doesn't take along for media to learn what happened and latch onto the story. I mean it grows like wildfire. Yes absolutely and and also at the school. The kids now know what happened. Abby and Libya had been found but they don't know anything beyond that and that's going to be a difficult conversation for a lot of them and you know what else is interesting is that obviously this investigation is ratcheting up. I I mean it's GonNa catch it up almost infinitely it seems like but it's going to ratchet up and then while that's going on and while the kids in the school have to do you know we talked about processing. These kids have to process what's happened. There's also a whole other element of the fear that the guy that did this his walking around could still be here. May very well still be in Delphi. And so you know people like Eric Gibson and Cynthia Rossy their their friends have been killed but they are also dealing with the fact that the town that they know as kind of this small little innocent town outside of Indianapolis Surfing really big happens. Well that's not the case anymore not anymore so you have these young kids who aren't really aware of love how this happened and you have parents who have to figure out a way to kind of have this moment with their kids so explain what happened and additionally you. You've got teachers at the schools who are trying to figure out. How do we address this in class and Christine Lang? Had to figure that out too And you know I think teachers teachers All of us you know plans change in a minute. A kid get sick. Could make some mistake. A kid throws up in your room. Kid has a seizure and you know all those things you you just adjust to and We had a student at the high school. I think he was sick at that time. And he has since passed away from cancer. And you you know you at least Ted some time some thoughts that maybe this would happen. So no you're absolutely right. You get this news and you as adults and MOMS and DADS and brothers in the building living you just go into action for the kids that are in your care. I mean you tried very hard not to break in front of them. You know at home but I'm not gonNA pretend ten for the next few days few months really till May when we talked about him you know we had tears in our room and and I think that's okay but I don't. Yeah I mean you knew the day before that they were missing and you think of all the scenarios and I think you thought maybe they fell maybe they got lost. I don't think you'd think in Delphi that someone took babies and this is what happened so I don't think anyone had any time to prepare. I think it was just this is what we do for a living and so now you just love. I'm different today. Amy Brown is Erica's mom and like a lot of MOMS in town. She's on the way to pick up her daughter figuring out how to tell her. This wasn't an accident it was on purpose. You're talking about telling her in the car car and you will talk to her dad. You're kind of giving you some news so you essentially had like forty five minutes to figure out how to you know. pull the rug out from your and I'm curious you know your drive to pick her up. I can't imagine what you were thinking like. How do I set like? Can you take take us through like free from your perspective. How do I tell her this words I use? That's essentially exactly what I did as I'm like literally literally bullying driving driving there you know like and I can remember talking to myself like saying out loud. What are you going to do? How are you going to? How are you going to tell her this and for a while? I thought I'm just not gonNA tell her like we'll pretend we saw it on TV. You know or something but then I was like wake I rationalized in my head. No she deserves to know what happened. You know and so it was just like a whole internal conflict on on how to tell her and I finally just thought I'm just gonNa tell her you're like I'm not gonNA use fancy words. I'm not gonNA say anything you know I'm just gonNa tell her somebody to this. You know that the words was coming out of your mouth. We're going to change her life. Absolutely I just kept thinking her life will never be the same this this one instance is going to dictate the rest of her life And so depending on you know how how we how she would react to it and knowing her as well as I did I knew that it would have been. I went back to our house and I had forgotten that. Everybody's there Cynthia's mom. Denise is trying to figure out the the same thing as she heads home her backyard has become a staging area for law enforcement because she lives so close to the crime scene so their search seems all round on on our house and then all these people are asking us questions and I just. I didn't want to talk to anybody. I remember that and then we got my house I still. I couldn't breathe. I I mean I just couldn't breathe and I was thinking about experiences I had had with loss and what to say and I just I kept thinking as a mom. They're allowed to be sad. They're allowed to be angry. They're allowed to be mad. Don't stifle anything they're feeling. I remember just all these weird things going through my head that you'd never. I think I think right. After I had gotten out of school. They had announced that they were suspecting foul play in. I had no clue what that meant. It was only twelve thirteen years old and then I asked asked my mom what that meant and she said it means that it was probably a homicide in somebody else did this to them it. It wasn't an accident it was planned and it was an attack. And what did you think about that. I just couldn't stop thinking about why why someone would target two of the most innocent people I've ever met why I had to happen to me. Why by Delphi? It's just a small town in the middle of nowhere in new blinken. You're already passed it. How could something so horrific and terrifying found its way here and Becky Patty and her husband? Mike are heading home to wait for the rest of their family without libby and at that point in time I was thinking how it happen just she was gone. I guess your mind doesn't go past that for a while while you don't even think ask questions for just a little bit. You just know that she's by here. Could I think it was shortly after that. I was that day even that they did come out and say that they suspected foul play. So that's it starts hitting. Oh my gosh they were killed. They were killed. You have to let that one seek in a little bit because it's one thing if they fall that it's another thing that this this this isn't right. Take a little blurry to me is. We're still in a state of disbelief. You know this is excuse me happening this. Come on guys this. This is not just not happening. Not here not now not us together. Obviously uh-huh and the law enforcement the police they. They did what they're supposed to do name. They're trying to gather and collect much information so they can get in on top of this quick as they can be i. I mean I do remember going in and talk to the police. Just Kinda put one foot in from the other somebody many holidays or calls and then we go here go there. Becky put up very well. It was almost like a out of body kind of experience. You're watching everything. Go on. You're like me. I'm not even a part of this in. It's it's happening and what's going on. Somebody explain this but it was very very difficult to explain it. There's no words to that. I can think of any way to explain. This is a bad time. MM-HMM LIBYA'S COUSIN SADIE. We heard from her earlier in this chapter remembers one particular moment. We were all just sitting around the table It was quiet and then you could tell that nobody wanted to say anything things like. There's like the heavy aroma in house And we were sitting mayor and my aunt. Becky had yelled upstairs for lobby to call her mom and tell her what happened. And then she hollered out like a three three or four times in all of our is just got like really big like what do we say like what do we do. And then she finally realized and she buried her face in her hands in ran two bedroom and then we were all AAC. Well I think we should leave them alone now slum While the families are trying to process what's happening pastor todd suddenly has a bigger congregation. He's ministering not just to a church but an entire town. You had already been working here seventeen sixteen eighteen seventeen years when this happened. What is that sort of atmosphere of the town? Feel like as you're going about Tuesday making plans for a press press conference and a prayer vigil after this horrific thing has happened in your city. What is the town feel like? Frankly it was hard feel for the town. I was so zoned in on what needed to be done at that moment so really. I'm not getting a sense for the town's feeling until they come to the provincial. I didn't know that fifty people here hundred people here. I didn't know what was. GimMe a clue. What's going to happen was when my secretary began to report the facebook responses and the shares? She would say it's been shared one hundred times two hundred the Times five hundred times a thousand times fifteen hundred times and she quit when it sharing twenty five hundred times James and I said please for a town of three thousand people just so that one time okay you begin to get a sense of what is going to be like and the place was filled and into the Rotunda and the Nice thing was this I made two phone calls one to a staff person wanted to volunteer and said we need hospitality and immediately I had forty people who already served their community. That's part of WHO Delvius when he asked one question and people respond like that. You know you're not alone and that's when it's good it makes you emotional certainly does absolutely. Because you don't do this job alone. The temptation tation is to do it alone but you cannot do it alone and so the more you have people around you the better off you are and I watched watched his church serve and many churches serve amazingly through this list entire time you look at things like the motorcycle ride things like the walk to reclaim tort trails. You look at the ability celebration of life. That's coming from the entire community. That's the fabric of this community. That's so important. Mayor Shane Evans for the first time realizes February fourteenth and what it means will always be different. That was actually. The First Bounds is day I'd spent with a woman who's life And so she came into the office. We'd plans to go on a date or something. Then she came into the office and I remember every hugging her and bowling There was the first time that day. I really got to express my emotions. You know you're out in the public you're dealing is not trying to stay strong for everybody but there's a lot to be done on that day in really. That was the first time I broke down And and that's another vivid memory that I have but I think it shows me how much she means to me to be able to break down in front of somebody like that and decrying to have them be your support and she was dealing with the same emotions that I was. This is all of our communities the Sweeney belong to all of us and so we were all feeling same emotion effort be jar one for me that moment. Uh Well. Delphi is gathering at the Methodist Church. Chief Darryl Jarrett is back at the firehouse. And he's worried about his men night early afternoon. Whatever I told the guys I said go home? Families decompress a little bit. Come back tonight. We'll have beer and pizza. Don't take this home and we have you guys come back and Dan. It isn't about talking about what you've seen or were you ban. It's just sometimes it's too early to go to quiet moments. I think there's a point where it's too early to bring in the professionals talk amount. I'm not saying you could heal it yourself but the first thing in you I feel I would lose so much respective. My guys come in and nervous doctor standing there that they didn't know we needed to be together. And that's why we did family because they all good we're fine thanks Kluber bt no we talked and chatted out all it in talk about the same one one pilot. Maybe a question of this or a question of that. It's good that they wanted to talk about it. That's why you don't want to talk about it. I know better than to try to make. You knew there would be a time I'm when we would have the professional that day. That evening was not it so we did that home and radio evening tender. Eleven o'clock I get phone call from. I think chief mullins if we can send some equipment to the scene into says the state police who are there so many people here that point to assist split the scene investigation after standing on concrete for two days straight. I couldn't even get off the couch. My back was done. I made phone calls to couple. You can just send antibody. You had sin right people because inches you didn't you didn't want to send them in to sing. And I thought I expressed that Cheek Mall three three or four of my guys to take care of dot felt horrible. I couldn't do it myself but I physically could not walk walk and so they went that evening and assisted with the crime scene. I think they were there Til uh mid morning. I don't know as the day ends. The man tasked with finding a killer is getting getting in a car. You're out there for several hours. What did you do next? Drove took long home too. Long Way on I've gotta take. My wife is just awesome. She incredibly supportive and understanding and I knew this was going to be different in I I just I I called her and said I it couple three cups of coffee own rally. Let's go take the long way so I did destroyed by myself for awhile. Did you listen to music. You think the total silence. I've often thought about that silence. Actually because it's normal. It's not like that at the time of wondered fighting is still do what I do what I do. Yeah keys to ask yourself that dope anymore. No the town of Delphi will forever be measured in two parts. Before and after February fourteenth two thousand thousands seventeen will soon see is cop cars on every corner media trucks on Main Street and fear and suspicion in the eyes of friends and neighbors bure's friends and neighbors who there may be a killer in town and tomorrow they'll see him down the hill the Delphi murders is written produced by Andrew. Aydin Robert McDonald and me me. Dan Cemetery with original music and scoring by shoe Sir and production support from associate producers. Michael Dudley and calen- chassis. If you want to see the the people places and things we're talking about visit our website down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM. Brian Bell is senior director of programming. Ramming and Tyler Moody is Vice President of the Warner media. PODCAST network Sherry sell. Dis is our senior production manager. A lot of folks at H. L. Lennon CNN. He had worked hard to help. Make this show and we want to give a big thank you to them. Also a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge urge of solving this crime. Most of all thank you. We really appreciate it. You're listening and we hope you'll join US next time.

Delphi Libya becky Patty murder Kelsey libby Abby Williams Indiana Doug Carter Carroll County Sergeant Kim Riley Indianapolis superintendent Abigail Williams CNN Deer Creek Indiana state macy livy
Chapter 3: A Picture & A Search Warrant

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

50:16 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 3: A Picture & A Search Warrant

"Simplisafe home security is getting commercial grade enterprise level security but for your own home think about the security fortune five hundred companies as us. They need to know police will be on scene immediately. This is exactly the kind of security you get with simplisafe. If there's a break in the US real video evidence to give police eyewitness accounts of the crime go to simplisafe dot com slash d t h today for a sixty day risk free trial and free shipping. If you want to see the people in places we're talking about in the story learn more about the investigation including how to submit tips or learn more about the town of Delphi. visit our website down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM. You said the last time we spoke to you that for you the woods will never be the same. I still feel that way even when I'm at home in my own woods yeah I think a lot of people feel that way. There's been a lot oughta violation here from the freedom and sanctity of a real place to the perception of safety and security. You won't bet most parents in this area. We can drop their kids off anymore for Shane. Lucia it's a beautiful area right now. This the whole community is really spectacular. Place retirement. Come through this you know and this is a very trail us. This is very this is a very trail and that was hard to get past. It's hard to get beyond that. You know Bush's trees talk if they if these trees could talk or stone or whatever it might be because they know exactly. Who did this everything we know about? What happened to Abby Williamson Libby? Chairman in those woods is a series of disconnected moments the in between each moments a blank space over the past three years State Police Superintendent Doug Carter like all of us has been trying to fill in those spaces. That's where the answers and now we're about to see some of those moments for the first time mm-hmm police are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared the announcement that the girls have been found not to a good end. We are investigating this as a trying. Seen we suspect foul play law enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. Two we have thirty. We have a still photograph. We have sound. This person could be half the white males and Carroll County to the killer who may be in this room. We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power not here and you want to know what we know in one day you will this. This is down the hill the Delphi murders and we're back accurate the CNN center in Atlanta in our production room. I'm Barbara McDonnell and I'm Andrew. Aydin we WANNA thank you for coming along on this journey with us and and we're not trying to solve this case what we wanna do is make sense of it and part of that is understanding. What do we know right now? What we now is that two girls Abigail Williams and liberty German thirteen or fourteen years old had been murdered? We know that they were on a bridge moments before disappearing hiring and that their bodies were found some distance away along a creek and it's been described as a particularly gruesome crime scene and that triggered a massive response from law enforcement from the gecko including the FBI and coupled with. That is the things that we don't know which is pretty hefty amount of that at this point the first thing being how are these. Two girls killed the senior gruesome. What was it that triggered such a massive law enforcement response? I I mean we're talking about multiple jurisdictions multiple agencies state federal local everything and then. Finally we don't know the level of fear. This community humidity should have was the serial killer that will strike again. Was this a one off. Isolated incident isolated it crime. We don't know the level of concern that local should have all of that kind of funneled into the three big questions. We have. which are who did this? What the hell happened out there? And how hasn't this been solved and as we get back into our story. Law Enforcement Horseman is beginning to process the first bits of evidence and they are still at the crime scene. They are also beginning to fan out all all over the area to talk to people and to begin figuring out what happened like you said this is the first time law enforcement is able to really wrap their hands around and tangible evidence stuff things that will give them some insight on what in the world happened Art One to seven PM. I've noticed more and more the people who are walking the trails. You know. They're not walking alone. They're looking over their shoulders there. There you know that that innocence was taken from US Sir You should know the day. Okay after is an important benchmark in this case. It's where for the first time we see actual evidence. There are two snapchat photo circulating articulating. One of them shows Abbey on the bridge shortly before she went missing and before we get to the photos. There are a couple of things about the MON on hybrids. So you need to know. It's more than a century old and it stretches more than eight hundred feet long and Deer Creek is seventy feet below. It hasn't been used by train since the nineteen eighties. So the railroad ties are in pretty rough shape. There are large gaps in between. It's a tough walk and I can tell you from experience. It is not doc for those with a fear of heights in the snapchat picture of Abbey from February thirteenth. She's looking down as anyone who walks this bridge does and should in her hands appear to be in her pockets. She's wearing blue jeans. A Red t shirt with a gray hoodie and sneakers her hair is in a messy bun. She's already already crossed the portion of the bridge going over the creek and the photo appears to have been taken from one of the small platforms that extend from the side of the bridge. wjr Here's Erica Gibson. Again Abbey was Happy you can't really see it like she's trying to get like across the bridge in era little terrified looking down now. She's like you can tell that they would have gone there and stuff unless they wanted to. I don't know if he's ever been on the bridge before But it could have been abused first time. She gets a little scared sometimes so when she's well she probably wouldn't have walked across the bridge so at that point. She was probably scared but I I mean. She was probably excited after she got off herself. I'm guessing if she's never been on it and they were having fun. Maybe was taking photos like I said and Avenue is being a little model. The second snapchat photo is a black and white picture of just the bridge disappearing into the woods. There's no one in front one of her and we don't know what's happening behind her. Which of these two photos was taken? I we don't know that either but we do know the the timing here is significant. Now explain for me. I don't use snapchat. So when Libby took these two pictures she uploaded them which meant that all of her friends or whatever? Her privacy setting was all those people could see it. Yes everyone her privacy settings depending but then once they see it it's supposed to disappear. Is that right. I've twenty four hours. Okay unless you screen shot it unless you screen chart yes and then you can keep it on your device. Okay and does it automatically have the time stamp when libby out does it automatically to snapchat that if the date and time. It doesn't but If I'm thinking right now I screen shotted it when it said three hours and then I looked at the time I screen shot at. It was like I don't want to get this wrong but I forget what time but it was like eighty the math on that until when I gave my phone. They're like okay so you took the photo at this time and it said this many hours ago so my time say instead like to ten when I think it was like two seven so like they're just trying to see wherever he took it to try to get proximate time that it was posted. We talk about imagery in this case and it's important to the investigation. These two snapchat photos are the first clues that help establish a timeline and investigators need to get their hands on them. The FBI came to our school super nice people like I mean. They came a few times. The office people knew them really. Nice people I'd never met anybody the F. B. I. N.. From my experience with them they good people he called us and he was like listen. I got your name from either last student that you you may have the screen shy or that. You may be able to help us. He's a you don't have to say anything. You can walk out of here right now. But that wasn't what I'm here for. I'm not here to not give them what I know. The FBI is continuing to interview. Students and authorities authorities are getting ready to talk to the media. It's the first press conference since yesterday's announcement that the bodies were found So we're back here at C. N. N. Center and everyone in Delphi wants to see and hear what law enforcement is GonNa say. You know as we mentioned before messing strategies important especially this period the case the town is looking for answers. They're looking for information. And so this is the news conference the first one where they're going to speak with some definitive information. Let's take this thing bit by bit. Here's Sergeant Kim Riley highly basically we have identified the bodies of the two females. That were found out yesterday. Or yes yesterday The bodies bodies are of have been positive of dinovite as Abigail Jay Williams thirteen of the Delphi area and Liberty Rose Lynn German fourteen of the the fire. The two girls were reported missing on Monday February thirteenth. The bodies were discovered about twelve fifteen on the fourteenth in the woods. Just east the town here by volunteers that helped in the search the children after they were reported missing to the Carroll County Sheriff's Department family has been notified. This is considered a double homicide an investigation. We're asking for anyone to come forward. Who has information that were either on the Delphi? His Trachea there on Monday especially there were near the Monin high bridge that they might have been seen seeing somebody out there. They may have taken pictures. Somebody might be in that photograph if they were out there doing that kind of stuff. We need that information. We would love to have pictures of that more to just clarify. What what we got going on out there so so? They know the bridges significant at this point. And they're asking for anybody who is out there and we've heard that there were people out there. It was a nice day. There were people out walking and they're asking for all those people to come forward and tell them what they know. Is there anybody else in the community. I'm sorry what was there anybody else in the community. I'll let you answer that. At this time. We do not believe so sir. Does that mean you have a person of interest in custody or we do not sir. Okay this is a little bizarre. You have two girls found dead in the woods and a murderer who is on the loose and understandably understandably so the first question from the media is should people be afraid and the sheriff's response is at this time. No Sir. It's it's. It's a kind of a puzzling response. Part of it I think is not wanting to alarm your community. I mean you don't want to say yes. Everybody should parent pat but at the same time by saying not at this time it is sort of A. What do we do with that? It's a little bit of damned if you do damned if you don't if you think about it it's a tough message to here. I wonder if maybe that might be said differently today if they had a chance to do it over but it is a fine line. Can you tell us the cause. The manner of death. That'd be autopsy. No we cannot do that at this time because of the investigation is still still in its baby step so to speak and we don't want to put that information out yet. Can you describe for us. The the scope of the investigation the resources to people what's going on with Carol. County Sheriff's department is lead investigation They've also they've asked us to help the Delphi. Police Department is assisting We have the FBI what's called RT team. Which is the evidence collection team that it is here have and they're also providing other resources? At this time we have not put all together. You know we've mentioned this a bit previously see but now we know from this news conference that the F. B. I.. is involved and Sergeant Kim Riley says in that news conference it's the evidence response team and and other resources right so obviously leads to the question is what are those other resources. What's the scope of the FBI's involvement because they don't get involved in every murderer right? This is also where I think it sort of begins that cups in this kind of get a reputation for being tight tight-lipped. They're not revealing a lot of information they can't at this point and that's something that's going to be sort of a theme throughout this investigation and so we got a lot of new information out of that news conference but as we're about to find out they are not quite done for the day Hey everyone it's Dan simply safe home. Security is the highest level of security. You can have with. Police dispatch up to three hundred fifty percent. Had faster than a normal burglar alarm with simply safe. You get comprehensive protection for your home. Outdoor cameras and doorbells. Alert you to anyone approaching your your home at entry. Motion and glass break sensors guard the inside. If there's a break in the US real video evidence to give police an eyewitness accounts of the crime ride plus simply safe protects your home from fire water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning to and it's all monitored twenty four seven by live security charity professionals. You can set it up yourself no tolls needed or they can do it for you. It's only fifty cents per day with no contracts. You'll get free shipping dipping and a sixty day risk-free trial. You've got nothing to lose. Go Now Ambi sure you go to simplisafe dot com slash D T H so so that they know we sent you that simplisafe dot com slash d t h Part to a blurry picture and Barron Woods well and I think you know as more of the story came out and then you know the kind of learned where the picture came from. I don't think you you would find a classmate to say a bad word about abby our liberty they they were just great kids Liberty just one of the world to be kind and abby wanted everyone in the world to have things kappa gift at Christmas. We are following breaking news. Tonight out of Indiana. Someone has murdered two girls one just thirteen years old the other fourteen and in their search for information they are trying to locate anyone who was in the wooded area at the time time including a male subject seen on these photograph. They were just released minutes ago by the Indiana State Police. They say they would like to Ask this person what he might have seen. That's Gene Cassara. She's anchoring on H. L. N.. That night talking through what happened that day with her guests when and the photos are released the two photos in question are blurry they show a man walking on that same bridge around the same time as the girls. The Indiana State police said the photos quote appeared to depict a white male wearing blue jeans. A blue coat slash jacket and a Hoodie. Those are the broad strokes of the person in these photos beyond that you see a man with his hands in his pockets walking on the bridge looking down. He's framed by the kind of woods you see in winter bare branches dead trees. That was just one of the many things to talk doc about that night Christine Grillo. There was a press conference today and this is a small community. They're not used to this. They have called in the FBI to help with recovery. They are still processing the crime scene as we speak tonight. They haven't said if they've recovered the cell phones. How important is that? I think the cell phones are going to be very important. It's not too long before we learned. That is an understatement. As you see the snapchat photo that you put up there is a very telling photo it gives probably the last the person perhaps that saw them alive. The cell phones are going to give a lot of information there. Also not releasing certain information. They're probably taking this investigation very slowly and very he carefully. They're not releasing how girls died. Perhaps because they want to investigate further before saying something before tipping someone off so the cell phones are going to be very very important the information and the communication that might have been picked up on those cell phones right before their death. Christine Grillo is sitting in a New York. TV Studio Oh and she couldn't know this yet but she was absolutely right about that immediately after this picture was released everyone not involved in the investigation including TV. Legal analysts were asking the same questions and are starting to draw some conclusions. Listen at this picture again. That was just released. East of someone they say was walking along the trail. The Delphi trail. This is the modern high bridge possibly was a known own place first of all. I am shocked that there was a camera. I want to know where I wanNA know where that picture came from. And the thing about it that you were talking about genius this is broad daylight. Hi this is two o'clock in the afternoon and it's a small town in a small community and the benefits of living in the small town of the small community is someone there has yeah or if the person is not from there. We'll be able to see. Did anyone see him. Did you see some suspicious whether any cars are there cameras in the parking lot of the trail your hope if it's a state or government property that they have some semblance of surveillance that tracks who comes in and who goes out and I got to piece the puzzle together Christine. The bodies of these two young girls girls were not found actually on the trail. They were found off the trail actually on private property but close to a shoreline so kors couldn't get anywhere near where those bodies were found. So it could be that you're doing that so you're hoping no one does find them that there's more decomposition to the bodies less evidence found and I don't know what these murderers are thinking Christine when you when you look at the crime scene and they are continuing to process and the amount of evidence. Here's here's the cold hard fact. One of those two young girls most likely witnessed the murder of the second of her friend. Guess they're going to be able to find out a lot of information and you hope that there's going to be discretion attached to all of this that if that information is not going to lead them to a conviction of the murderer of these two girls girls that that is something that maybe they won't share and it won't be they won't say that it's clearly determined because that is a horrible thought it really is and they are. They should be afraid. You're right there is a killer on the loose. These are two young girls doing something that young girls do and somebody found them and killed them. as is a picture makes headlines in sparks more questions. The family is straddling two different emotions. Loss and optimism that the picture will start filling in some blanks. Here's how Libya's grandfather might patty sitting with his wife. Becky remember just sitting here. Both this is so such disbelief that this has happened so I don't know when they shared that information with this if it was before or if they just released that information out which was a picture of the we all refer to him now as bridge guy I I do recall. It seems like it was a person of interest that we WANNA talk to for Kerry Timmons. Liberty's mom it was just one more thing so there was suddenly all this speculation of is there a trail cam is there you know I think that was probably the biggest one there. There had been a trail came out there. So it's all caught on video and and then there are people wear whereas this trail cam and I'm just like we didn't know immediately. That had come from her phone but then I think they released within a few days after that that it had come from her phone but then then all the rumors started. We'll we'll do. They have her phone to they. Get it from my cloud. Where did this come from so that just it was all really crazy night and everything kind of happened and pretty quickly? I mean we were suddenly like planning a funeral planning of viewing and and it just grew it was. It was so big so when you look at the chronology of the story from in February two thousand seventeen to where we are now. It is littered with big moments and this is the biggest one to date. The picture is from video on her phone. And it's interesting because we know now that it's from video but at the time families the Media People Watch watch it like we didn't know that right they didn't say where I come from and people were wondering like was there a trail cam out. There is surveillance camera. Then we find out it's from Libya's he's phone she's called a hero for that. I remember when that photo came out. And they're saying this is just somebody we wanNA talk to and I remember being skeptical immediately immediately. That wait a minute. Is he just somebody you WanNa talk to or is he a little more than that. I remember Working Rachel and at the time and being in the control room I we were covering during this case and I turned to the producer to my left and I said look police are calling. This guy is suspect but I we all kind of know where this road is headed and this is also. Where are we learn a nickname for him? Because he is unnamed so people start calling him bridge guy which is sort of morphed into b g the initials. It's also where there begins. Laser focus on the bridge the dimensions geography which direction the Guy was coming from. Where on the bridge? That photo was taken. There is just a hiber focus and fascination and interest on the bridge itself there's a lot to dissect about that photo to. What does it actually show us? Our his hands in his pockets are his hands in his jacket. Let's see wearing exactly. Does he have something on his head. Is that a shirt tail. If the walls of this writer room could talk about the things we've speculated in that photo at least fifty five different things what they are what. They aren't what they could be what they can't be. I mean the speculation in the guessing of what's in that photo is literally endless. And you think when you hear that there's a photo of somebody party that you would be able to tell what they're wearing what they look like and in this photo you just can't and if you WanNa see these pictures you can go to our website which is down the hill podcast dot com. And we've got all of the materials there. See you can see everything yourself. There's a lot to look at it in the story three. So it's a great spot to find all of the visual elements maps photos. You know all of that stuff and when the photo was released everyone believed that someone must has to recognize this person. That was the early feeling since then that pictures been poured over. It's been analyzed and it's been picked apart by anyone and everyone with an interest in this case especially investigators here's ISP superintendent. Doug Carter as we've had a lot of work with the photograph and you can't make that better for the public. Can I ask when you look at that. Do you see a hat to DC hair. Do you see a hood do you know. Yeah I mean I I I do I do again a not a long time ago. I I don't look at the head anymore. Look everything else we know about this. I I am. We think what we feel about this person. We know what his body looks like. I Walk Talks While the people of Delphi wrap their heads around the photo of the man on the bridge. There's a wave of media on the way. Hey everyone. It's Dan over the last two chapters. We've taken a little time out to find some moments. Does that give us a sense of who abby libby were. And this time we're going to hear from Cynthia Rossi. You met her before earlier in our story. She and abby were a very close friends. So here's Cynthia with a memory of summertimes in Debbie. We would always spend our summers spy her pool and we just loved eating watermelon while sitting on her porch under an umbrella by the pool in we would always take are watermelon slices and set them out on the railing of her porch in wait for all the butterflies to come in. She loved watching the butterflies utter flies. She has always loved butterflies. They were just such a huge part of her life so huge symbol in her life. And I'll just never forget a sitting there for way too much time just staring at butterflies. I just remember whenever we spend our summers together. We just felt it free from school in responsibility in. We just felt like we could spend quality time together in. We wouldn't have to worry about homework or any assignments and I think she disliked the fact that they were free and they just flew wherever they wanted they can do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted and I think she she just liked that about them. We'll have more memories of Abbey Libyan the the people Delphi and upcoming chapters for now though let's get back to the show Hearts three a little beehive. Nobody smiled. I mean nobody smiled for days It was just just this. It gives me goosebumps. Still think about it just it was sad it was A very slow pace It wasn't wasn't that people were suspicious of others. I think that came later. It was just this era of I. Don't I don't even want to be here. You know I don't know what to do with myself. And we were flooded with media and so if anything you saw a lot of media trucks and people interviewing lean and people just stopping in wanting to say hey. Do you WANNA say a few words on camera and you know locals just we were all still trying to process what in the world it happened Barbara. I think the story is stuck out. I think there's a couple of different elements. It's a small town. Bits considered a safe place and then something really terrible happen there in broad daylight and then it only got more more bizarre from there right. I mean if this happened up the road in Chicago or an Indianapolis it wouldn't necessarily be the lead on every single news channel and I think the other thing. Is You know the media in a town like this. The story that they were coming to cover it wasn't necessarily the sore there. We're going to get or that. They're going to because of the twists and turns that continue to take place. Exactly IT'S A. It's a bizarre story. We generally know how these things are going to end and in this one. Nobody could have anticipated where we are today in a lot of that at at this point is falling on the shoulders of one man in that sargent came Riley from the Indiana state police. When did this release? Start this case. Start to really get the media attention outside of this area. I'M GONNA say late late that night or early. The next morning we started to get believe it or not we had the BBC showed up out of New York. Had A couple of the reporters. Here I was getting phone on calls from other countries. It was just starting to snowball. I mean I've dealt with national news on other another things but not to the way this this was and it was just a whole new experience for me and it was time to call in some help for me and I had some great other. Just they came in and assisted me and backed me up where I would do. One thing that we'd be doing something else behind the scenes so it was. It was nice to know that I had that kind of help. NOPE For the first month or so it just it just continued and the interest just kept rolling and growing. Why do you think there's that interest? I think once we kind of got out of what happened and the information that we did put out there. I know at first. We didn't put a whole lot and it was. There's reasons three aces on the ground. When you're looking for the fourth one in a card game and you know that's kind of what we're trying to do is hold all the information and we could But yet yet still feed the media as much as we could and I know there's a fine line between those two and it was and there was a couple of times I probably said something I should have not aww said but it was one of those things that it was just. It was hard to hold back and I always conferred with my lead detectives Both in the sheriff's department harm and and our guys and with the FBI when we did do news conferences or when we did when they knew I was getting this information was getting ready to put it out. I always ran up by them before. For most of the time before there was time I could not do that but ninety percent of the time I tried to run everything by them before I talk to the media because I didn't want to say something that was going to jeopardize or hurt the investigation. So it was. It was a fine line on what we were doing. But we try to do the best we could with the information we could put out there while Kim Riley is managing the onslaught of media the appeal for tips and leads at yesterday's press conference is clearly being answered. Hundreds of of them have already come in and while that's happening sheriff. Tobe Lazenby is managing his team of investigators in a community dealing with a sudden influx of. Well everyone is that sudden swarming. If you will that occurred in our our community were down by law enforcement media the governor himself you know coming on board. It's just the over initial overwhelming feeling on every yet You know where we currently are now. The DELPHI city building thing. It's like watching a little beehive. Oh main with all these investigators in and out the door all the time with a file in their hand and going to follow end window. Whomever I remember seeing that first couple days around the you know once? We were organized round the clock. I mean there were million million nights I was up there till maybe one or two in the morning and still seeing guys and now the door all the time following in things those those things they were following up on would lead them to a property on the southwest side of Carroll County. Here's h anchor. Gene Cassara is again with Lindsay eaten. She's a reporter based out of Indianapolis. We do have information to report. The state police are serving a search warrant at a home and Delphi. This is in in response to information. That police received through tips and through interviews giving probable cause to search the home. No word on whether there have been any arrests at this hour we do want to begin tonight with Lindsay eaten she is a reporter for CBS. Four Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis a Lindsey. You are at the seeing tonight. Tell us what you have seen with executing of this search warrant at a home correct correct. We've been out here for about an hour Eight phillies did service search warrant at his home within the past hour some of the authorities have left there is still quite a large presence of authorities out here we have been detected if is bringing them boxes from this home. There's a field next door to this home. We called detectives with flashlights looking through the field. at this point the the latest we have heard. No arrests have been made troopers are stored Riley actually just pulled us about an hour ago. That they don't anticipate any arrest to be made aid. This was sort of following up on a tip that they received in the he said. This is just another piece of the puzzle. They're following up at each. And every Lindsey. I want some more detail here. How many boxes have you seen a forties takeout tonight? Have they taken anything. Other than boxes. Any carpeting any mattresses Taurus's anything we have not we have not we saw. Maybe just a couple like I said we got here around seven o'clock we saw maybe a couple of boxes taken from the home. I can tell you there. There's no crime tape around the house There are a few authorities still out here. They were searching field next door. We saw them going around the house. Ah In and out of the door and asked about it at this point minutes later on the same show Kim Riley called in from the scene of that search. Okay so you went to a judge and judge signed off on this warrant. Why did you select this home and Delphi through the investigation with the Church and the Interviews we've had had caused To going ballots. Unisearch all that when you look at the time line of this case there are multiple blips on that time. Line of really significant events in February sixteenth. Eighteenth at dusk the search of this home outside of town which we just heard Kim Riley talking about I'm trying to imagine Agean Delphi resident and hear that there is a swarm of law enforcement on how you must think that this is it. We're GONNA get this solved. This is the end of it and that's not what happened. They were there for several hours. We saw boxes coming out. The media had gathered. I mean it was a big spectacle spectacle on the edge town. You know this is two days after the murders and I'm sure there had to be some feeling amongst the folks in town because as we've mentioned this is a small town so law enforcement activity of that scale on a house outside of town within in our everyone in town knows that this is happening there has to be a feeling of optimism. And hope that there's going to be some new information new answers searchers. The most optimistic being. We're going to wrap this thing up and figure it out right. That's what it looks like. This is the first big police response. We're seeing other than them out at the scene and I'm sure a lot of people did feel that way but that's not what happened. And instead the prosecutor Robert Ives takes to facebook page that night and this is what he wrote according to the Lafayette Journal and Courier and he wrote. Please do not harass bother or accuse anyone. There are no charges pending against anyone as a result of the pending investigation. No one at the home search is suspected of committing any crime. MM please please leave these people alone and let the police work. And at the time that the newspaper quoted that facebook post they said it had already been shared like six hundred time. So you have this huge response. But then you have this message from the officials that Nothing came of that Tom but it still leaves a question. Because we heard Kim Riley say a just a moment ago he said we had probable cause also go into the house and do a search on it in order to get a search warrant. You have to have probable cause so with Bravo. 'cause we don't know so who knows about probable cause us attorney right so we have one bread Semedo Vich. If the last name sounds familiar it is also the last name of our producer. Dan Summits Ovacik the brothers. Brad thanks for joining us. He's been on the phone many days many a times for us as we've kind of picked his legal brain. How are you today man? I'm doing well. How are you guys doing doing? Well doing well. Thanks for joining us. We call Brett all the time when we have questions just the first time. We're doing it with my correct. 'cause we've talked a lot about the legal side of this case you know. Obviously there's a lot of kind of criminal investigation stuff but you know at some point. We're GONNA hit some sort of legal phase so we've talked about a lot about this but Brett. I'm curious can you Kinda give us. Some understanding of what a search warrant entails what is probable. Cause give it to us in Layman's terms for the people that don't deal with US everyday. Sure it won't Layman's terms. Probably caused means that the police have a a reasonable belief that there is evidence of a crime in a place to be searched That's boiling away down of course but ultimately to get a search warrant As a former prosecutor I can tell you this my from my own experiences. What would happen? Is that a police officer or detective would come into our office. They would have an affidavit That would be a sworn statement in support of not only their experience but also why they believe that this property needs to be searched. And what they're looking for and if it meant that probable cause standard that there is a good faith basis to believe that there's evidence that the crime on this property or place to be searched. Then that would go to the judge. The judge reviewed for accuracy sufficiency. And if there is enough probable cause the judge would sign off on that search worn. Then it's off to the races for the police specific. Do they need to be in that statement. Do they need to say we're looking for a gun or we're looking for bloody clothes. Do they need to be that specific they should be. CBS specific as they possibly can because a search warrant needs to be limited in scope. And by that I mean you can't say I'm GONNA the entire state of Indiana right. You have to say I'm searching this house this property for this reason. And here's what I'm looking for. But more importantly why am I looking for there. You can't just say I picked this Random House I wanNA search. It has to be supported by competent evidence. And by that I mean this the police have to say well we have a tip from someone. We saw a bloody pretty shoes from across the way. And there it is we want to go in and get it right. There has to be more than just a wild goose chase. It has to be supported by competent evidence. And if you you don't have that you're not going to have probable cause to grant that search and what is your experience with how high this bar is for judges when they're looking at these. The statements is at a really high bar. They have to prove that they have reason to believe. This evidence exists there or is it a low bar because this this is just a search warrant. Well it's a high burden that's placed on the judges and on the on the police. I should say and it should be because you're trying to have the police enter your private property to search for something. There's a relatively high burden that being said there's no defendant. That's arguing against why the police should not be able to go in there. The person who's the subject of the search doesn't have the ability to contest a search warrant at the outset so it's a one sided game in that regards but you still have to have enough to reach that that probably 'cause Threshold so Brent. You're saying that there's there's generally a high bar that has to be cleared in terms of probable cause there has to be a narrow scope of what you're looking for this search specifically on this property two days after these girls are murdered. Is it unusual to you that asserts. There's like this ended with nothing this soon after the crime yes generally speaking of course in my experience. If you're getting a search warrant that is really close to the crime then usually or should be supported by competent evidence. There's a reason that you're looking so quickly and you feel like it's necessary to get a search warrant within a couple of days for that property information in theory of crime is still fresh right all. That's happening really quickly. If you're getting a search warrant maybe a couple of years after crime occurred and you're trying to go back and piece things together. Well No. It's a little bit more common. The ERA GONNA strike out for lack of better term but when it's so close in time to the crime I yes I think it is surprising and usually usually pretty rare that you're just gonNA come up at the end. That's interesting real interesting bread cemetery. Thanks for joining US man. We really really appreciate it. Thank you for having me Sabar. I know that Robert is the prosecutor in Delphi. In Carroll County at the time said as you mentioned known at the home searched the suspected of committing any crime. That doesn't mean that law enforcement can't then revisit later right. But it's been three years. We've had a recent conversations with Kim Riley from the Indiana state police and he says bet search is not as significant to the investigation now as it seemed that night to them and that they went to that property they thought there could be somebody at that property. who was was the suspect and apparently the investigation revealed that wasn't the case and he also told us it's not as important of an asset set as it was that night so the property in that search warrant it would appear as it stands now? They've moved on but for the people of Delphi for property to be searched and combed over and picked through with the vigor that this police force was using using had to been some optimism. Thinking that they're going to be making an arrest but this is also part of what they're doing is they're are also trying to figure out where their attention is not needed. They're looking at people out there looking at evidence they're looking at all the different things that are coming their way and figuring out what matters letters to this investigation and what doesn't and it certainly looks like right now. That search is not a big part of this investigation and it should also be mentioned. You know we tried to get the paperwork related to that search warrant but as the ISP or any law enforcement agency will do in an ongoing going investigation that is their their justification for denying the request documents so we did did do our due diligence but unfortunately they were not stories and also because ruling out in a Lotta ways is just as important as ruling it in our next chapter. I have trouble saying those words. It's I eighty here. It would. He really remembers but that very very first time that that recording was played couldn't really understand what he was saying. It was all like computerized computerised sounding and then they were able to clean it up and suddenly it was D. T. H.. And it was like is he saying like why and I remember thinking. It doesn't even sound like urgent. He's not yelling he. He's so calm down. The Hill is written and produced by Dan San Mateo Vich Andrew Ayden and me Barbara McDonald old with original music and scoring by shoe. Sir Michael Dudley and Calen- chassis are associate producers. If you WANNA see the people places and things were talking about visit our website down the hill. PODCAST DOT COM Sherry. Selby's is H. L. N.. Senior production manager manager. Brian Bell is H. L. N.. Senior director of programming and Tyler Moody is the vice president of the Warner media. PODCAST network a special thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime and most important of all a big thank you to you. Of Of course we appreciate your listening. This podcast is brought to you by simply safe home. Security for a sixty day risk free trial we'll visit simplisafe dot com slash d t h get the best security system and most comprehensive protection for your home with the use of outdoor cameras doorbells in motion sensors. You'll see and be notified of anyone approaching your home with twenty four seven live surveillance by security professionals simply safe also so protect your home from fires water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning to no contracts and no tools are needed for installation. And it's only fifty cents per day. Go to simplisafe dot com slash D t h today for free shipping and a sixty day risk free trial at simplisafe dot Com Slash D._t.. H so they we sent you. That's simplisafe dot com slash T T H.

Delphi FBI US Kim Riley Indiana State Police Carroll County Sergeant Kim Riley Abby Williamson Libby Christine Grillo Indiana Doug Carter Abigail Williams superintendent Indianapolis New York Dan CNN murder
Chapter 8: A New Direction

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

49:36 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 8: A New Direction

"To get a look at the people in places we're talking about in this show and to find out how you can call her email in a tip. Visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT com when shirt quite what to expect when I walked out. But I gotta say to the Delphi Community I got to say to the Delphi community. How grateful I am you inspire people. You don't even understand when you don't even understand why information's being released. Today is the result of literally thousands and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by Delphi Carroll County the FBI India State police and countless other agencies in most of our chapters. The first voice. You hear a Superintendent Doug Carter. That was him again. What he just said though. It's the start of an extraordinary event. A new dramatic phase in this story. One that we're still in as we speak since July seventeenth of two thousand seventeen when investigators released a sketch of the suspect in the murders of Abigail Williams and liberty German Carroll County. Delphi have been doing their best to figure out their new normal families of Abbey Libby have funneled their energy into action. They've appeared on talk shows and gone to conventions keeping that flame alive and they've waited and waited and waited and now we're in April of two thousand nineteen. It's been two years since the killing people in Delphi or dealing with nonstop speculation and rumors while trying to find rhythm living in a community now known largely for the worst of what's possible law enforcement is starting to get asked if this case has turned cold. They insist that it hasn't and for the most part. They've Gone Radio Silent but today Doug Carter is about to change all of that. He's turning that radio back on. These are also examining this snapchat photo. It was taken just before both girls disappeared announcement that the girls have been found to a good end. We are investigating a crime scene. We suspect foul play. Law Enforcement is saying that one of the girls actually took video on her iphone. They say it was right before she was murdered. Two maisy that we have a three. Oh we have a still photograph. We have sound the person's it could be half the white males and Carroll County to killer. Who may be in this room? We likely have interviewed you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. From one day you will. This is down the hill. The DELPHI murders part. One in plain sight. I knew that things were going to be tough I knew I was GONNA get drilled. I knew the superintendent. What's going to get drilled? And we were the two main people that people are GonNa look special being the superintendent that excuse the expression threw it out there. I mean I could have done it. He did it. We all felt that it was better that he did it just because of his ability to speak and talk the Indiana state. Police call a news conference. Which News Conferences Happen every day? All over the place you and I worked in his long enough to watch. We've watched hundreds of them oftentimes of the same things. Oftentimes there's not a lot of new information not a lot of Activity out of these. Sometimes they're just a formality right. This wouldn't couldn't be any different from that. Can you talk to me a little bit about when this came together? Your call to get to Indiana that kind of whole behind the yes. This is April of two thousand nineteen so Easter Sunday. Susan and I flew up to Indianapolis got a hotel room and we were really thinking. They've got somebody. They figured out who this is. They've got somebody and it's all over now so they have this news conference in the Canal Center. Which is kind of a community center of sorts for a gathering this size. It's a perfect venue for this. Because in addition to inviting the media this time they were inviting the public. They wanted everyone to come and they were being very clear about that. This is open to the public. Come and hear what we have to say. So the natural question becomes what is it. They're going to say we're going to get out of the way and let Isp Superintendent Doug Carter do the talking playing this in its entirety. This is the entirety of what he said information's being released. Today is the result of literally thousands and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by Delphi Carroll County the FBI at Indiana State police and countless other agencies. This community surrounded us some twenty six months ago and you did everything you could to support us but most importantly you surrounded the family of these two little girls. Gosh I'll never forget it after you hear what we're going to release today. I'm going to ask for your continued support. Your continued understanding your empathy and compassion. As as we move forward to find out who did this. And we will we're seeking the public's help to identify the driver vehicle that was parked at the old. Cps Welfare building in the city Adelphi that was abandoned on the east side of county road. Three hundred north next to the hoosier heartland highway between the hours of noon five on February fourteenth two thousand seventeen. If you're parked there are no who was parked there. Please contact the officers at the command post at the Delphi city building. We're releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind. The person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is not to different people speaking. Please listen to it very very carefully. We're also releasing video recovered from Libya's phone. This video has never before been previously released to video. Shows suspect walking on the bridge when you see the video watch the watch the person's mannerisms as they walk watch the mannerisms as he walks. Do you recognize the mannerisms as big someone that you might know remember? He is walking on the former railroad bridge because of the deteriorating condition of the bridge the suspect is not walking naturally due to the spacing between the ties. The course of this investigation. We have concluded. The first released will become secondary as of today. The result of the new information and intelligence over time. Leads us to believe the sketch which you will see shortly. Is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls? We also believe this person is from Delphi. Currently or as previously lived here visits Delphi regular basis or works here. We believe this person is currently between the age range of eighteen and forty but might appear younger than its true age directly to the killer. Who Maybe in this room? We believe you're hiding in plain sight for more two years. You never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know one day. You will the question to you. What will those closest to you think of? They find out that you brutally murdered two little girls to children. Only a coward do such a thing. We are confident that you had told someone what you have done. Or at the very least they know because how different you are since the murders. We try so hard to understand how a person could do something like this to to to to children. I recently watched a movie called the shack. There's also a book the talk so well about evil about death and about eternity to the murderer. I believe you had just a little bit of a conscience left. I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not. It's not what they're experiencing today to the family so I hope you all will give them some time because we're going to be asking that there's no media inquiry or no media response for at least the next two weeks and I hope you understand why the family found out about this about this information this morning. Just want the family to know that when I take my last breath on this earth. I'll be thinking of them. There's going to be a tremendous amount of questions. I know that I know that never in my career have I stood in front of something like this? Please be patient with US please. We're just beginning. We are just now beginning and I can tell you on behalf of the sheriff and the police chief so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time that we will not stop. Doug Carter immediately walks off no questions mic drop and next to the podium where he was standing. There's a large easel draped in a red sheet. It had been there nearly two hours before the presser started. And what's on that? Easel isn't exactly clear but it seems important. I just unveiled the person that we believe responsible for the murder of these two little girls so I might media. Take a look at that now. Kim. That's Captain Dave Burston. You've heard from him a few chapters ago he was an ISP spokesman at the time when he pulls that sheet down with the media and people watching at home see is completely new. It's a sketch of a young white male with curly. Sort of bushy hair. A large forehead and a prominent chin. Almost what's called a lantern jaw? Think Jay Leno compared to the sketch police released nearly two years earlier. It is totally different. But they're not finished. We're also going to show you a video not previously released. The Superintendent spoke to and also the audio that's additional to what's been previously released so a slight change on it. The video plays out is less than two seconds remember. The still picture released a few days after the murder. It's that one only the video version and it's from Libya's phone. The man in the blue jacket with blue jeans and a Hoodie has something on his head. Maybe it's the Hoodie a cap. Maybe it's just his hair but he takes two full steps on the bridge and following that video the Indiana state police had something else from Libya's phone too crew so for fourteen months. The town of Delphi is haunted by three words down the hill. And now there's four with some static something to diabled in between right and a slew of new information out of this news conference and as it has all the period of time leading up to this point there's ripple effects all through town. I mean we thought that the conjecture and speculation was crazy before now. There's a second sketch and it's just going to increase tenfold. Because he watched his the comedy podcast. Which brings you brand new ideas. Tv shows and movies West. Some funny and creative Brits discover that maybe there is such thing as a bad idea so the idea iheart aimed at didn't show called crazy in love. You've got a group of girls one really rich guy. And then there's a couple of like category mental patients. If they must be mistreat actress no questions asked basically paying for prove. I'm regretting. This already. Subscribe to because she watched with new episodes every Thursday. I'm Ana Garcia the host of crime. Daily the PODCAST. Join me every Friday. To learn about the latest true crime stories from across the nation we cover unsolved murders compelling mysteries undercover investigations and shocking crimes. This is the place to learn about at all. True Crime Daily also happens to have the largest and most active true crime digital community in the world. You can find our content on spotify I tunes stitcher and Google play just search for true crime daily. The podcast make sure to subscribe also look for us on Youtube and facebook part to the town secret. That was intense. I was there and I thought for sure Carter was coming off of that stage after somebody. When he ended his sentence and he was done he walked away from that podium like he owned it and I thought Oh my Gosh Bridge Guy was dumb enough to show up here. He's GonNa go choke somebody out. That's actually what I thought and everybody gasped because it was pretty unreal. Barb let's go to April Twenty Second U. N. Susan Hendricks from H Allen. Who's with us here? In the writer's room get a text message. You walk us through or learning about April twenty. Second yes so I was working on another show. I don't even remember what story I was doing that day. But I get a text message from one of my sources in Delphi. Saying can't tell you why but you need to be here. Monday and so we went triggers back to the room. What was what was the feeling. What was the VIBE? What was the was their tensions kind of walk us through. You know it was interesting because before the press conference began it was Very calm People were talking. People weren't particularly nervous people. I think we're excited about whatever was going to be said. And then Carter comes out and his tone is very serious. He's passionate. He's intense and the room just went quiet when he was speaking you. Could you could literally hear a pin drop in there. What stood out to me when my stomach dropped was seeing the unveiling of the new sketch there was an armed guards standing near it and when they took off what was covering the sketch. I was taken aback because sketched the person looked so young. I've gone back in this in my mind. I don't know if there was an audible gasp in the room when that happened but I felt a gasp. Like if people weren't gasping that was certainly got sucked out of the room for just a second when that happens. We had so much time because the family was being briefed. We were able to notice our surroundings and really take a look and I did notice officer standing by the covered sketch so he wanted no one to come even near that to bump it accidentally but when it was unveiled thought looks like a kid. Yeah even though Superintendent Carter had said you know. He could be as young as eighteen to see the sketch and to see a young face. That is was shocking. I thought did he know these girls was he their friend. That's how young he left and vastly different from the original completely. Afraid when you watch the news conference you can only see what's in the frame but you guys were in the room and I'm curious when especially when he said to the killer who may be in this room. What was the feeling inside the room? Especially at that moment from me. We couldn't get any closer Barbara and I were sitting right on the carpeting. The from your on the floor in the for on the floor right in the front. It was a packed room media outlets armed police officers everywhere. I did notice that and it was packed. We were in the front row and I thought in my head in this room it took a while for it to really resonate with me thinking. Oh my gosh he could be in. This room. Took me a while for me to process exactly what he was saying. And there were a lot of people who when Superintendent Carter. Sheriff listen be walk off and they leave. They left that room. You didn't see them after that. I certainly thought they're going to get the guy like they are jumping in their cars right now and they are going to wherever this person is and they're making that arrest a photo journalist with CNN. Who was there with US said to me? Once I stood up and walked back in this room in this here in this what is going on in this room. They were shocked and they see a lot in here a lot and they were thinking he is here looking for me. They disrupted everything that day. This press conference just turned everything upside down. I thought what you thought that when he left there on arrest someone because a mention of that car also stood out to me without the making the model and obviously there is a wall of silence that we've experienced there because they don't want false. Confessions that that silence also allows for a lot of speculation so coupled with the the new sketch. You've got the new audio. Did you notice during the press conference? How Much Superintendent Carter prefaced. It's the same voice. Keep that in mind. It is the same voice because they sound so different they do an. I think. The guys sounds very young completely different than down. The Hill. Sounds like two different voices. He said it's one. I use guys all the time in a casual manner to me. It says friendly speak. We also don't know just because they added guys just before down the hill. We don't know if that is said in any particular order. They haven't given us any indication of that. We know that that all of that was said on the video that libby made. But we don't know where in the video how far apart it might be. That was another element of the press conference. It was a little unusual invited the public but they also took everyone's name as you walked in and it was interesting because I thought okay if you really think he's going to be here when maybe ask her an idea. They weren't doing that but they sure they knew. You had to sign him so that was an interesting part of the process. You don't normally sign in to something like that unless you're you're there for the president or someplace that you need a security clearance to get into. That wasn't the case but they definitely were taken everyone's name and looking back now in hindsight when you say something like that he could be in this room. He's from Delphi. Or He's worked here. He's been hiding in plain sight the next morning. That was the cover of the newspaper hiding in plain sight and his sketch. When you say something like that speculation of course is going to start right away. Why were they signing in? Did you look at each door? Did you look behind you? What did you hear what did you think? And then nothing and no arrest so the reactions of this news event are obviously fast and furious all through the community. They start with the families. Here's a little bit of what they said about that. Well it was a shock about everybody's mouths were hanging on the ground you know like at first there was. There was anger because the first thing that goes through your mind is. Are you kidney we have just spent two years pushing this guy you know when they first said okay? There's a new sketch. It took a little while but after you think about it after we thought about it and they had talked to some and he think about it and it's like well at least we know something's happening something has happened. There's they've gotten some information or something that has changed where they're going and to bring out this sketch so we know at least or closer than what we were because they have to have something to switch everything up. So that's the only thing that I can hang my hat on but if you look. She really listened to it as like a different almost like a different demeanor of the person. Meaning guys and then it can become a little more directive down the hill and it's almost like the markets. Hey guys what's going on today? Know now I'll give you a directive down the hill the person changed from being social to a directive. That's all. That's the only difference that I really hearing that. And when they changed from saying it was somebody perhaps forty to fifty years old to somebody who could be as young as eighteen. Would you think about that? I don't know the information again that they have that they're basing that on and I'm hoping that they have information that substantiate what they have said which is eighteen forty but I think they left us such a wide range because they don't ever want to get back into the corner per se saying okay. You said he was twenty five to forty five in this guy's twenty three when it happened. Therefore there's not going to do that. I think they're gonNA leave such a wide range. In Age there for that purpose Diana Erskine Abbas Grandmother Sat in the back of the room. Honestly I was shocked. I really was because that sketch to me is a person who looked so much different than the first sketch that came out although other people said well if you look at them closely though overlay then you can find some similarities. But I guess personally I see one has facial hair one does not have facial hair one had longer hair and one had shorter hair so that still course opens the possibility that there was more than one person out there that day. And that's something we have to. We have to entertain. I guess that idea that there could have been more than one person in. That's why there are two different sketches is. Maybe there were two people out there. I don't know I honestly don't know I'm not sharing something that that we we've learned. I'm just saying we don't know the release of that second. Sketch isn't just spooking people. It's opening up a whole new sources of speculation. A new sketch means new theories. New Comparisons and at Abbey and Libby School. That started almost as soon as the words left. Carter's mouth here's their friend. Erica Gibson again. People are already posting who they thought it was throughout our school pictures of local boys teams from a sophomore to senior when they were in eighth grade and I mean immediately people started to throw people out and I feel like it's not a bad thing if he's around here we're just that much closer to getting him. I mean that that they actually truly believe that. Does it make you look at your friends and classmates and neighbors differently Nobody in my class have I ever looked at differently or anybody? Who was a senior This year there are some people in Delphi that I have looked at differently name because they've always put off that vibe to me like a creepy vibe in like I mean everybody does. I mean you see someone you're like. Oh there are a little creepy like Oh lordy. There was almost absolute pandemonium. That's Lisa Delaney. She's standing at the grill in the kitchen of the stonehouse restaurant where she's not only the owner but also the chef the announcement that abby and. Libya's killer is not only local but possibly in the room spooked not just the room but everyone in town I mean people were like freaking out especially when they said that they believed that they've already interview that person and they're here that was I mean it didn't create panic but it was almost like I don't even know the right way to describe it. That people were like we are going to find that person. It was a new. You know if they're here still he's going to be brought out that that was almost it wasn't a fear. It was almost more aggressive. You can see the the you know when people talk about it in the grocery store in church in Church. I mean you'd walk into Church right. After and people were standing there and goes to of the superstars five. My brother-in-law my nephew When they would walk down the sidewalk or in Church or in the grocery store and somebody would say they've already interviewed him and they know that he's still here. They like he's still here. The fate of browse all went down. We're GONNA find him and you'd see fingers doing one of these like okay boom. I think we created what we intended to create right. So that was was that it was more rejuvenation of. Let's find this person you know. I think there's a whole lot of confusion because a lot of people like that doesn't look at all like the first one and so there was a whole lot of what is going on. You know that Kinda and then they said well they still want to find this person for questioning because they think maybe he could have saw the the person and it's like you know but there was a whole lot of like where did this come from you know so if we had this possible information two years ago. Is it possible that we could have seen the guy standing at the grocery store you know but I mean that's they've kind of they've handled it with more confusion? I think anything else but there. There is definitely a positive attitude. There's not a negative. It's it's definitely a positive attitude about it. Kelsey German starts getting phone calls from her guy. Friends telling her that's not me. I think it was very crazy for us because we all kind of trust each other since we all know each other so even some of my friends were getting turned in saying. 'cause I promise this wasn't me? I didn't do this because they were worried. That because they got turned in would think badly of them. I'm assuming but I don't. I'm I'm glad that they got turned in. We're looked into I love my friends. I wouldn't turn them in if I thought they did it. Amy Brown Erica. Gibson's mom thinks that the announcement that the killer may be local isn't really news to her. It confirms what she's always assumed. I've always believed it. Was someone local just just to know the trail system just to be able to get away with it for so long so to speak. I think he had to be someone local and so for me. I think just hearing. The words was validation. But we've always thought that so. It's it wasn't. It wasn't a huge shock to us. You know it did make us make sure our doors an extra couple times and things like that but overall it didn't change much for us. And do you look at the sketches or the video stills video you see anybody you recognize I I will be honest. I have sent in tips because no tip can going on looked at and even if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. No harm no foul. You know I know that so without telling us the person would have you called police and said I'm just you know. Somebody's got matches the sketch or could resemble them maybe shady dealings. Maybe you know more reclusive things like that that I feel like would be this person you know like I have my own profile and the hat in my head. You know because we've gotten a great profile of what this person could be. So it's kind of you know you play around in your head and and you just one day. I woke up and I thought you know what was that. Kid's name and that's exactly. What did I said you know and then as you go on you know you put things together and I have some some some friends that were just send it in and so I just I just did. I'm like it's not GonNa hurt anything if they talked to him. That's great and if you didn't do any that's right then there's no problems and I think that's how most the people in town look at it. This all makes sense to Mike Patty too. I do think he's been here before. Just because of the layout of the of the land around there is hard for me to wrap my head around somebody being able to go to a place. That's what I try to do my to myself. Put myself in this person's shoes but I go to a strange place I've never been before. Never been to and try to pull something like this off my gosh. That's that's a huge risk. Not Knowing where you're going you know go down the hill and then you gotTa Creek Involve Them. How deep visit. It's cold it's February the thirteenth of water. And you've got to be you know lower than forty degrees. Do you go in over your head. So the person my opinion probably has two little a little bit about the layout of the property or the ground Cynthia Ross. One of Abbie's best friends is coming to terms with the idea that the killer could be living nearby. Once they said in the press conference that he was a local in you knew the area that was just a weird feeling for me because Delphi's like this picture perfect town in the fact that there could be so much evil and it felt like this was almost like the town's secret like the person who did this was just hiding in the shadows waiting for their debut into them. Maybe they feel like they've succeeded but to this community. It's not a joke. It's serious and it's something that is just made our community stronger Part three a complex strategy. The simplest way for me to explain it is. It was a matter of the our core group of investigators circling back around and saying Planeta serve. Degree is not working. So let's let's rethink this and you know. Fortunately our investigators said okay. Here's this is plan B. Now that you know what was said at the press conference which was which was a lot and now that you have heard how everyone's reacted to that what we want to do is go through these new pieces of evidence and really break down. What do we know about each of these things what we just heard from toby? Which was he described this as plan a is not really working. So let's move to plan B so the first question becomes what is plan B right and one of the things that that we have encountered with this case. It's very easy to pay attention to every word that someone uses or to notice when they've changed a worry argued over words exactly and you can't do that in this case because when you get down to that kind of minutia level of trying to figure out what people are saying you just realize people are. Human. They make mistakes when they speak. They say things that aren't exactly what they meant to say. They mispronounce words. We all do it. And so trying. To parse words from investigators will make you crazy so with all that said we are going to take a look at some of the things. Superintendent Carter said in smaller portions. So here we go. We also believe this person is from Delphi. Currently or previously lived here visits Delphi regular basis or works here. We believe this person is currently between the age range of eighteen and forty but might appear younger than its true age. So they think this person is from Delphi or may have been there and that kind of makes sense when you go and see the area. Even Kim Riley said this person appeared to get around with ease. That would indicate some familiarity. And who's familiar with that area? Probably somebody who lives in the area or maybe grew up there or they wait so long to say that something changed something changed. During the course of this investigation we have concluded. The first sketch released will become secondary as up today. The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch which you will see shortly. Is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls so there are now two sketches and they describe the old sketch as secondary. What's that even mean yet? This was a point of a lot of confusion for everybody in the room. A lot of people when they said secondary thought. Oh just toss it out then. It's irrelevant and other people. Were like wait a minute? Does that mean that there's two people? It's launched a lot of theories. They're still a lot of questions about it. And we asked Indiana state. Police public information officer Kim Riley to explain basically from the information we were receiving from the public We got some information that this person was was seeing there. Basically we had information on the first one. We made the decision that we think that this one is more the second picture that's been put out that was put out in. April is more of a scenario who we think maybe more involved than yet. We're not saying that the other one is not him with the information that we've gotten an tips and interviews that we've been having over the last two years we feel that this space may be more. What the subject looks like. And so that's why we've kind of change directions. Went to this one and we're still pretty adamant that person and we're looking for free. I got some criticism for the second sketch and I took that it's okay it's all right What criticism did you get? Oh we've had that for a while. I might hit me released earlier. And what else do you know? Why is it being so seaweed being so secretive and my response to that is very simple? There's a complex strategy associated with anything that we do. We have to be thoughtful and respectful and shame on us if we wouldn't have done it because we knew we were gonNA face criticism so I welcome the criticism. They clarify the day after this. Press conference that the news catch is actually not new at all the new sketch. Actually they had from the beginning and was actually drawn up before the sketch that they released in July of two thousand seventeen the new talking point from Indiana State. Police is that when this person is captured. He's probably GonNa look like somewhere in between the two sketches and. I know you don't agree with me on us. I see a lot of similarities between the two sketches and I can kind of see where. Yeah maybe they are older and younger version of the same person. Not everyone agrees with me on that. Now let's move onto the video. Two video shows suspect walking on the bridge when you see the video watch the watch the person's mannerisms as they walk. Watch the mannerisms as he walks. Do you recognize the mannerisms as big someone that you might know remember? He is walking on the former railroad bridge because of the deteriorating condition of the bridge the suspect is not walking naturally due to the spacing between the ties. You've watched it hundreds of times. I've watched it hundreds of times. What are you see not a lot? You see the man on the bridge. Take a bout a step and a half wrote a second and a half long clip video and it's no clearer then. The photo that was released in the beginning. But you still can't see his face and him taking the step doesn't really show us a lot about how he walks. Because he's on the this old rickety railroad bridge that you have to be careful where you put your feet right and Superintendent Carter says he says to focus on the body not the face. He seems to think that it's the gate. It's the pace with which this guy walks. That's going to prompt someone and the mannerisms perhaps how he holds his hands where his arms are one of the things that Superintendent Carter says. A lot is if that was my dad. I would know it. And he's right if it is somebody you know. That was a step and a half enough. They feel that if you know this person that is enough but again like the sketch. Choose to get to the people who know this suspect like everything. It's just not enough. There needs to be more because this is what forty frames a second tender fifty frames of individual images as less than two seconds. Yeah we're releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind. The person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is not to different people speaking. Please listen to it very very carefully. Okay so we've gone through the new sketch we've gone through the video the audio which is the other big new piece of information in this in this case. What are we here? What ARE WE LEARN? We here guys and then we hear something that we don't know what it is and then the audio we're familiar with down the hill. They were very clear to say in the presser that this is the same person speaking so the same voice that says guys is the one that says down the hill but it definitely sounds different. The guys sounds like it has a higher pitch. Dare I say it sounds a little friendlier down. The hill sounds like a command and order but guys sounds like maybe maybe the first thing he said to them We don't know that we don't right and we don't know what order any of these words said it could be a complete McGrady match. I've heard people talk about when you use the word guys you use it for people you know. I personally push back on that and say now I think people us guys often for people. They don't know it's something that I think. A lot of people say all the time and to hear that I think it it. Launches more speculation about this encounter how it happened how it began what he said them to the killer. Who may be in this room? We believe you are hiding in plain sight for more than two years. You never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy but we have. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know one day. You will question to you. What will those closest to you think of? They find out that you brutally murdered two little girls to children. Only a coward do such a thing. We are confident that you have told someone what you have done. Or at the very least they know because of how different you are since the murders. This was the moment I think a lot of people thought. Whoa this was the moment that I thought man. It's like something out of a movie. Usually don't hear that it was chilling and his intensity. You felt that the minute he got up to that podium. You felt the intensity of what he was about to say so. Let's put all of the stuff that we've just talked about and all the stuff we've learned in context and perspective here when we look at the information out of this news conference with the benefit of hindsight that information isn't really new. That's all information. They had in February of twenty seventeen early on investigation. Not for them right and that kind of goes to what share of lesson be said about. This was planned be so. When did this come into being was plan B? Always there was this something that they had kind of had in their back pocket from day. One we don't know the decision to release this information now. Why now by April of Twenty nineteen? A lot of people thought that because of some of the religious things that Superintendent Carter said in the press conference because this movie yet the movie the movie right he also. This was announced on Good Friday and they made sure to invite the public. The press conference happens day after Easter. So is the Easter Holiday significant? Is that why they planned this? They they don't say and in addition to the date and Easter holiday we had already been in communication with the Patty family and had an interview setup for right after this press conference and then Superintendent Carter Says No interviews for two weeks weeks. They don't say exactly my own. Guess is just. They wanted the words that they used to be. What was reported what was in the media for two weeks? They didn't want the family's reaction to it to become the headline. That's my take on it. They haven't said whether that's true or not from an investigative standpoint. This is the end of the line. This is it all. The cards are on the table from the investigators and for the last seven chapters. We've been working through this story outlining this case and by now you likely have your own theories at home and so next time. We're actually GONNA start outlining hours down. The Hill is written and produced by Barbara McDonald. Dan Semedo Vich and me. Andrew with original music scoring Shuo Sir and production support from associate producers. Michael Dudley and Kaylene Chassis Sherry. Selby's is our senior production manager. If you WANNA see the people places and things we've been talking about visit our website down the hill. Podcast DOT COM. Brian Bell is senior director of programming and Tyler Moody is the vice president of the Warner media. Podcast network especial thanks to the people of Delphi and the members of law enforcement who are in charge of solving this crime and most important of all a big thank you. We appreciate you listening.

Superintendent Carter Delphi murder superintendent Indiana State Libya Delphi Carroll County Indiana US U. N. Susan Hendricks FBI Kim Riley Carroll County Barbara McDonald Erica Gibson officer Indianapolis Abigail Williams
Introducing "The Plot Thickens"

Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

03:03 min | 1 year ago

Introducing "The Plot Thickens"

"Hey everyone it's Dan some toby. I hope you're all healthy. Well staying inside and looking for new podcasts. To listen to while you're there if you are I. Highly recommend checking out the plot thickens. I'm still Peter. Bogdanovich brand new podcast from Turner classic movies. And it's outright now. If you're a film nerd like I am where you just love Hollywood in the movies you're GonNa love it. I haven't preview for you here. Please give it a listen and subscribe. Today Donna. Vetches burst McDonald's which is best known as direct films like Veer Bogdonovich. Help change the way movies were made starting with his first hit in one thousand nine hundred seventy one. The last picture show show Roswell and each thirty one. He became one of the hottest directors in Hollywood all his life. He's wanted to make movies and he did his self confidence. He knew what he wanted to do. Now this movie is a successful director. Pierce career was kind of the ultimate triumph of the film critic. Film Nerd Film Buff. Hitchcock interviewed side. One eater hit energy great directors. Who came before and he told their stories to anyone who would listen. He said to me paramount pictures made for me also made entirely when you plunge the knife in blood. Which for a while Peter had it all he was good looking rich and talented and he liked being in love. Peter Night we were the first unmarried couple on the cover of people magazine. Oh horrors you have. You have four pictures. Enrolling PEOPLE HATED. This guy has to learn. H You but Peter. Success did not last mistakes but restored again. Now arrogant bastard. Maybe I was just as he was on his way back up. She fell in love with another me. Skirling worldly eight Dorothy. He suffered unspeakable tragedy playboy magazines. Nine thousand nine hundred eighty playmate of the year has been found. Shot to death. Finally phone rings I answered it Hefner. He said two words. I'm Ben Michael. Your host for the plot thickens new podcast from Turner Classic Movies each season. We'll bring you an in-depth story about the movies and the people who make our first season. I'm still Peter. Bogdanovich chapter one drops Tuesday April twenty. Eight you don't WanNa Miss Subscribe now for free on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast.

Peter Night director Hollywood Bogdanovich Hitchcock Veer Bogdonovich people magazine Turner Dan Hefner Donna toby Roswell McDonald Pierce Apple Dorothy Ben Michael
Delphi Murders /// Under the Bridge /// Part 3 /// 511

True Crime Garage

51:34 min | Last month

Delphi Murders /// Under the Bridge /// Part 3 /// 511

"Many already have but if you have not. you're going to want to check out ashley. Homestore bill on a promise of style selection and unmatched value. Ashley homestore is the number one furniture and mattress retailer and north america offering everything from decor and accessories to outdoor furniture. And even your next perfect mattress ashley. Homestore provides products designed to last at affordable prices. So you can trust. You're getting the best deal without sacrificing quality. Visit a local ashley home store near you or shop online today ashley. Homestore dot com Directly to the killer fully cowardly do such close to you. Think they find out that you murder to holy a cowardly cal. Stop give us give me one more time. Sorry if you already did. But i don't think we have heard it yet. The and i know the story is changed a couple of times. But what is cheyenne sang. She she arrived. Parked wear walked aware. And we know that three forty nine according to her story. She's hosting a picture online that she says she took that day. Yes she said she got there at two fifty originally said three fifty but again. She said she got there. Two fifty said that she ran into a girl she was with our new around. That had that had gotten there about two thirty. And that girl's name is negative. Names blade cheryl walser okay. And they went to the other side of the bridge was around the bridge she's eight. The picture was supposedly taken around three o'clock. The girl she knows goes with her. Yes the picture was taken around three o'clock. She's on the bridge at three o'clock. Had she not here. The girls effigy was just coming from the bridge when he saw derek about three fifteen three twenty said he heard her a couple arguing under the brace. She not hear that she staying right on the bridge at three o'clock and that makes absolutely no sense because he'd have a clear sight to the crime scene and she would obviously be able to hear something is not to hear anything. I mean. she's on that she's on the bridge in question. I mean i don't. I don't understand sound travels usually pretty well in an area like that. You know in a hollow Water and f. s. g. We don't know if he says he saw schon or not ain't never says he says he's never said he saw cheyenne doesn't mean it doesn't mean that he didn't tell law enforcement that he saw but it but as far as we know we have no no statement of him saying that he witnessed her or saul her and another young woman on the bridge right. Yeah we only. We only know about his statement from from derek. What are your top five reasons to make dp the number. One person of interest as changed his story. He looks like the second sketch he is. He knew the girls he was at the crime scene. The day of the murders admittedly. He's again he's he's. He's changed stories multiple times. He injected himself into the case He changed his appearance. You know and i'm going buy things that you know. The law enforcement said that to look out for bridge guy. You know so those would be those who base the things. I think that the five or six things like yes. I agree him putting himself at. The scene is very difficult. That's a that's a very that in itself is a hurdle i mean it. It works that way. With every case the person who finds the body the last person to see a person those are always suspects And you lump those two in with the same high probability that you would a- boyfriend husband or anybody on their and our circle so that that's of interest he's there we have we By his own words he is there and then we have someone else who says he was there as well. Sounds like we're questioning her information. But be that as it may. It sounds like he. He was their second yes. His story changing is is difficult. Why why put yourself and then change your story unless it was necessary to keep keep some kind of false story going but i do want to throw out that. Eyewitnesses are known to lie to law enforcement if they need to protect themselves and if he was at that parker somebody out of the park to to have a fair to me. That's reason to believe that that somebody would lie to law enforcement. Possibly but and i get what you're saying captain. You're absolutely right about that. But my my hunch here would be if if behind closed doors. They thought that their questioning his story. They're going to say look. We're investigating a double homicide here. We don't care if you were down there. Smoking a doobie or a meat hook up with some girl on the side. We don't we need to know what actually have the flaky. And why you were there because if not then you're you're you're at the top of our list and that's where i go and i and i agree with you. Skip i one hundred percent where it does appear in. I'm going off of the words that were used by. Doug carter In the april two thousand in nineteen press conference according to what he saying they were absolutely shifting gears. A shift gears sometime before that press conference and now they were happy to announce it to the world specifically to the killer himself. So you're right. Something had to have happened or they went down the wrong path. Misguided misled at some point early in the investigation or at least prior to april two thousand and nineteen. Where where. I have more questions. Is that the the things that the things that could lead you to dp even early on. They're all there for you. It's not difficult if what if what we're saying or what. We're speculating is in fact true. It's not difficult to see a connection. Here he knows one of the victims on facebook says he knows the victims maybe personally or acquaintances or somehow lives lives there. He's he's there and he has a person that supposedly with him that we don't know who that person is. We can't we nobody. We don't have any information stating that. There was an actual person with him. I what i'm getting at is. And i get what everybody's saying about the small town factor but this i mean delphi city police have been involved carroll. County has been involved. The sheriff's department they lesin be claims there the lead on the on the case if you had to pick one. But isp is there and the f. b. i. or they're very very quickly and the fbi. And i don't think even indiana state police are gonna get bamboozle by somebody. That's well to do in a little town you know. We've had a early on in this investigation per doug carter. His words are that over. One hundred and fifty officers have much this case in some form or fashion. And that's throughout the state of indiana. The other thing. I want to ask you about skip is the. This was new information to me. You said gee. I was involved in the investigation. Correct in two thousand eighteen and clarify. I'm not questioning that. I just had not heard it. Tell the listeners and me why gb i was involved again. Because that's that's the the. I'm assuming you're talking about the georgia bureau of investigation. Yes that's correct. It's not unusual law enforcement to bring in another group of as for peer review if they are The case is not developing like they thought and Just fresh set of eyes. They brought him in for that and it was it like i said they came in and did Looked at it. Look at it from like it was a brand new case looked at everything from the beginning you know left and not long after that then this when the press conference was when they change gears so i think your point is that if they came in with fresh set of eyes and and they may they may have taken the bias out of the investigation that. Hey you guys have been looking for the wrong guy because you're looking for rso's serial killers you're looking for the guy that what you think. It looks like in this video and end in the sketch. When the fact is he may not be you know in. That's that's why that's a they don't know how exactly how long they were there or were involved with it. I just know it was in two thousand eighteen. Maybe up until even early two thousand nineteen got not unusual to bring somebody like that. The one thing that did change though for the state of indiana not just for this investigation but others. I believe it was in two thousand eighteen that the state started collecting those convicted of a felony connect Collecting their dna. Yeah and so. That's one thing that i think is a little unclear as far as the nationwide concept of what's going on in delphi and the investigation itself as you know people keep saying well if they've got dna why didn't they pick up their guy they he you know he would be one. He has to be in a certain database. Right like it's not just If you have dna but nothing to match it to you're not going to find the person that you don't you don't punch it into your dna machine in it spits out a name. This is all you want to go. Look for the crispy colonel. He somewhere in columbus. And here's his phone number. That's not the way it works. They they get a dna profile. And if there's nothing to match it to there's nowhere to go and yeah one thing that it definitely changed from from the information i've collected and i you know i'm i'm foul like anybody else but this in two thousand eighteen is when they made that mandatory that if you're convicted of a felony in the state of indiana usa mate your dna so if bridge guy whoever he may be has a felony or sexual assault or anything that you know rape Something in the state of indiana prior to killing the two girls on in two thousand seventeen. He likely isn't in their debt. Any of their databases. Yeah and what they law enforcement said also is that appears. This guy hasn't committed any grise so that that tells me that maybe the evidence they have with partial fingerprint of the dna does have enough markers. Maybe they don't have enough to identify. Maybe they maybe they have enough to rule out but not identify right and you have because you have multiple agencies working this case and yes. They're working hand in hand in there working together and i do think that they've done a lot of good work. Even though we sit here and speculate as to who may have done this and why it's not been solved all these years later. You know you have one agency that says yeah we do have fingerprints and we do have dna in this case But then when another agency is interviewed there are a little more. Clear saying yeah. I've we do have that. We don't know if it suspect dna or suspect fingerprints. We know that we have fingerprints. Dna that does not belong to abby libby that was found at or near the where we found. The bodies We we can't say until somebody's arrested in charge. We can't say if it belongs to killer not again. I think the timeframe plays a lot into that about win when that question was answered because i think they were a little more forthcoming early on but i think once they once they realized that this guy has discussed follows the case may is involved maybe in social media including forums and things that about the case. Listens to stuff like this. I think that's what that's when they decided to shut it down. Because they don't want they did they. I think they believe that he has been doing that all along and was possibly. The reason for changing stories is because he was getting information that they were putting out and changing whatever you know fit them. Whatever was to his benefit so they shut. Let's say side. They just shut all the information down. And i don't blame in going back to law enforce. I think they've done a great job. Thank i know. There's a lot of people out there. Say oh law enforcement doesn't have anything and and they've done a terrible job. They screwed it up totally. I don't think that it all do. I think mistake was asset. Yeah i think. I think they've admitted tobe said. Mistakes have been made. We try to rush to to solve this. He also said that they didn't identify an individual as a suspect early on to me. They're putting telling statement basically saying that we identified them as something else other than a suspect exact in to to really kinda credit. The work that they've been doing you know we did say or skip you said they may have been told by b. I hey you've been you've been looking in the wrong direction. You've been looking for a serial killer or a serial offender or Sexual predator and but but to be clear into to credit i s. p. and those involved they didn't seek out daniel nations daniel nations. He came onto their radar. Because of you know violent illegal activities that he has been doing and then they're going oh by the way he was he was here At that time and and should be somebody that should be Definitely looked at. And i one thing that i really get a little angry about In this case and some people's perception of the investigation itself. I've heard several people talk about tobe lazenby. Be like he's some kind of dots sheriff out of mayberry. And that's not the vibe. I get it all I've i get their county newspaper. He has a weekly column in there. That discusses different Pieces and parts of law enforcement and the job that they do as sheriff says the the protectors of carroll county He's very much dialed in. I wish people would would open up their minds a little bit in I- tobe lesin be to me comes off skip. Maybe agree with me. And i i know the captain does but he comes off to me as somebody that wants to say more to the public about the case the evidence and the investigation but in being respectful with the people and agencies that they have partnered with in this investigation. I think he's politely holding back. I would agree one hundred percent. I think i always think about the the The statement he made about you know. I know that voice who is that you know That was that to me. That was It seemed like he wanted to say more there. You know. i think a whether it's whether it's saying things debate the sky or or whatever it is i agree with you. I think I i just don't understand the people who say you know who who ripped law enforcement for Guy let's look if they got they got led astray by somebody in Not the worst thing that's ever happened. I can promise you Again i go back to carter saying at the two thousand press trump's that were just beginning. I think that they realized that all that stuff they learned was all based on false information. And so going forward. Here's our new guy. Here's the car we believe he was in. We believe he's deathly local. And in that and that's In direct contrast with what they what they said. Originally you know i mean. Why would you be putting billboards all over the country. If you thought the galvez local they were just looking for the wrong guy. Now why was that. I think i know but other people have you know other people have opinions as well but they were they were looking for the wrong guy. And now they're now i believe. They zeroed in who they who they should be well. I think that there was a chance that they were you. Know with the the the businesses and the the traffic through that area would lead them to. Because when when you've worked let's say you've worked. In carroll county law enforcement your whole adult career a child abduction murder is one half of one percent of the homicides each year in this country that very rare so most most law enforcement officers and even an agency as a whole you could have twenty thirty year. Career never experience. It never be involved in an investigation like that. And if you know if i woke up tomorrow and there never was another child. Abduction homicide ever again. Praise god but It's it's a rare crime. And i think that you're the gut reaction of most people regardless of delphi carroll county indiana or columbus ohio. The florida panhandle. Texas or california regardless of where you're talking about other than like new york city or los angeles or chicago. Most people the gut reaction is. It had to be somebody that came in and did this to us. Did this to one of us and left. And you're exactly right. I mean it was the next day as soon as they knew as soon as they found the girls at noon and the the release from police has always been. We knew we knew very quickly. Their words were very quickly. I have to believe you could replace that with immediately that this was a homicide and what backs that up is that within that our three three a roadblock checkpoints are set up at least three that i found where they're interviewing drivers and passengers and stopping vehicles and one of the statements they had was that that day they spoke to at least six hundred people in cars. Yeah and you're right and they were looking for someone that would want to leave the area. That may not may have just came into the area days before now. One thing that we've not touched on entre graham garage yet and we've covered this case a bunch and skip again. Thank you for your time today. Talking with us about this case again is in regards to that nationwide manhunt. Which until the guy's kat. It's always going to be a nationwide manhunt. But in regards to those billboards one thing that i found incredibly interesting. Was that on on the billboards. That were i put up of the picture of of bridge guy and one thing we i. I like to underline too when we talk about the the picture of bridge guy. That is the best photo that is the best video that have bridge guy so to think otherwise is is silliness but they were posting the picture of bridge guy on these billboards and early on it said. Do we know this man. Last seen february thirteenth two thousand seventeen to thirty pm. Which i find to be incredibly interesting because we know the snapchat photo was posted there to captain asked if if they were taking more photos or whatnot. Police would know that they found analyze. Family would know that but that that has never been released so we people to speculate about that and and so we know that she posted to photos and the stamp that we get on those two. Oh seven pm and they would know based off of the video from finding her phone and analyzing the phone when the video was taken and we've already said based off of Technology what what it tells us in regards to the sun the end the the bridge and the shadows and whatnot. It's believed that the abduction of the girls took place between two twenty in two forty pm that afternoon. Very interestingly enough those billboards two thirty pm. I almost have to wonder. Is is the time stamp on their video or on her phone of that video two thirty pm when he's last seen on the video because the other statement we have is from. I believe it's from anna who is Abbie's mother that says you know becky. Mike and anna watched. They were allowed to watch in here. The video and anna says that she could hear audio after there was she can no longer see anything so at some point that video goes it goes dark. It's it's just recording blackness. Maybe it's you know doc. Maybe libya's holding it right up against her leg. Maybe she put it in a pocket as bridge guy got closer but there was audio. That could be heard. And that's where we get the down the hill from as well so i wonder if that video is and they put two thirty pm because they. That's the time stamp of that video. That's that's a good point and would make sense because when the picture was put up to seven. They weren't all the way across the bridge. I think they were about maybe two thirds or behalf way. you don't see you don't see him in the background coming yet. So it would made sense that they would get walking and going back toward the end of the bridge because they were at the end of the bridge when they were filming him. So that make sense time-wise also Makes the One of these two thirty to three thirty underneath that bridge. Because from what i gather from the sky who had local know who said that. That law enforcement knows that. Bg was around twenty minutes after derek had gotten there so if they know that then they know he was around 'til about three thirty five approximately again that that again. That law enforcement knows he's all there were several things he told me that everybody wasn't privy to one of the things was that they know law enforcement knows biji was there until twenty minutes after derek had gotten there so he got around three fifteen that puts. Bg there till three thirty five now. He didn't explain how they know that. I'm guess i'm guessing. It probably had something to do with them. Seeing him leave you know because if you remember early on there was law enforcement asked if anybody saw anybody walking along. The hoosier heartland highway That afternoon with a duffel bag well if you parked at the cps building if you even if you left bridge went through the woods in exited there you the. The cps building sits right in between highway three hundred and the hoosier heartland highway. Okay and you have a wide open view. So he was walking from where the where the trees start to there and somebody saw him that very likely could have been who they saw walking from there to the cps bill so because they were seen him they thought he was locked. Walking along the hoosier arslan highway. But he's actually walking or coming from the woods but that's that's somebody who were. Somebody saw him walking. So i think that's a possibility that that's how they know That time they just put it together for how long you take him to get from the crime scene to to that area this summer you can go back to angeline. Life's little pleasures like seeing a movie and going to the post office okay. Some parts of normal life aren't so great. Luckily with stamps dot com. You can skip the trips to the post office. May on ship any time anywhere right from your computer. Sun letters ship packages and pay last with discounted rates from usps and ups official us posted in shipping labels using the standard printer stabs dot com and saving nearly one million small business owners. Like you time and money with their switch and save feature. You can compare carriers to find the best rates any time i've been saying for years. Stamps dot com is a must for any small business owner. Stop wasting time. Go onto the post office and go to stamps dot com instead. There's no risk with my promo code garage. You get a special offer that includes a four week. Trial plus free postage a digital scale no long term commitments or contracts. Just go to stamps. dot com. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in garage that stamps dot com promo code garage. Stamps dot com. Never go to the post office again. Canvas pro is the easy to use design platform. That has everything you need to design like a pro. Look the colonel when it comes to designing. I'm a bit of a beginner but canvas. Pro is my superpower for design. Marketing print materials and beyond. And it's helping us grow the garage. Now that i have camp appro mike. Content is next level whether you're a professional designer or just getting started cava pro can help boost you and your team's productivity and creativity. It's a quick easy and affordable way to design. Whatever you need no matter. What your creating and sharing canvas pro has everything you need in one place. Including a collection of over seventy five million premium photos videos audio and graphics plus canvas pro comes with time saving tools that simplify and speed up the creative process you get all of this and more in just one. Canvas pro subscription campbell. Pro is a game changer for the garage in the way that we market our show to our listeners. Look whether you're involved in a startup your student. Your marketing team nonprofit an entrepreneur or just a crafty mom. You're going to love canvas pro. It will help grow your business. And increase you and your team's productivity with a range of premium tools and content to help market your business to the world design like a pro canvas pro right now you can get a free forty five day extended trial when you use my promo code. Just go to canada dot me slash garage to get your free. Forty five day extended trial. That's c. a. n. v. dot m. e. slash garage camera pro me slash garage. Lots of things can make your workouts hard. But your socks shouldn't that's why baba's performance socks are built to be nothing but comfortable and supportive. Baba's performance socks have taken all the amazing innovations that make baba's the most comfortable socks you've ever worn and added their special heck's tech performance technology baba's performance socks are stitch with special moisture wyking yarn and temperature regulating vents. That allow cool air flow in and prevent overheating. Come with a pillow. Like tab to save you from blisters. Stay up technology. A special arch hugging system and an extra layer of cushy comfort on the bottom for the perfect amount of support. They come in different styles for every sport was design features to help you optimize performance and like all their socks every pair baba's performance socks. You buy they donate a pair to someone in need. They've donated over forty five million pairs so far. I'm telling you people there really is a difference between baba's socks and every other sock out there. I love my baba socks. I wear them to the gym. I'm wearing them in the garage right now. They are the most comfortable socks i've ever worn and they perform. And you know the colonel needs to be able to perform goto baba's dot com slash garage today and get twenty percent off your first order. That's b. o. M. b. a. s. dot com slash garage for twenty percent off baba's dot com slash garage and skipped. You know the witnesses are the people that were there better than than i do so while we have you on the phone here i want to make sure that i ask you this There was a statement in this plays along. What exactly what we're talking with right now. There was a statement that i found early on. That said a woman. I couldn't find much more about this. I couldn't find you know the name of this woman but a woman who said that she saw a man leaving the cemetery that afternoon. And i i've been looking through my notes here this morning. Trying to find if i if i wrote down a more exact time other than than afternoon and i. I can't find a time that i put with that. So one thing that you know one thing that i've found to be very interesting in this case but i do this in every case in but is especially in this what we are analyzing what doug carter was saying at the twenty nineteen press conference under a microscope. But you do that. Because that's not. Doug carter just getting up there and riffing you know. That's not just him talking off the cuff. That is a statement that was piece together very carefully by multiple people in a room together agreeing on what we're going to be saying. Now we do have carter. Who does later say there are a couple things that he threw in their himself. But the jet but the basis of it is A statement that was put together by the investigating collectively by the investigative agencies. Now i have to believe knowing what we know about john. Douglas in the fbi and Things that they've done during his career in a roy hazelwood's career and robert wrestler's career that those words were probably piece together very much with the help of the fbi or with their at least with their advice so when looking at words in in how we choose to put out certain words and certain statements regarding this case the investigation and such the evidence to hear a woman said she saw a man leaving the cemetery that afternoon. Very interesting and it goes back to what you were talking about with the car at the cps building notice. The witness doesn't say she saw a vehicle or a man driving a vehicle leaving the cemetery which we know. There were parking spaces there. She says she saw a man that to me implies. A single individual male individual on foot leaving the cemetery that afternoon and just just like you were saying skip about the. They were asking for a driver. You know. I believe. I'm gonna try to get his. I'm going to try to get as close to verbatim. I can't based off a memory. But they're asking they said if you parked a car there that day or you know someone parked there that day. We want to hear from you. But they start off the statement with saying We are looking for the driver of or if you know the driver who parked at the which again it. We're really really kind of analyzing this and being very suspicious about everything but it almost sounds like we have we have. There's at least some thought here that we think you may have been driving somebody else's vehicle. Yeah the exact statement was we're seeking the public's help to identify the driver of vehicle that was parked at the old. Cps dcfs building welfare building in the city delphi. It was abandoned on the east side of county road. Three hundred. so yeah there. He's not they're asking. Yeah i great. They're you know asking about the driver. So seems seems to make sense that they would know who the car or the what the car is and who the car belongs to you. Know kind of cross-referencing information here with them saying we believe this person is either was either local at the timer has local ties to delphi. You almost have to wonder did somebody. Did somebody see a plate. And it was an indiana plate. Maybe they don't have the plate number but they recall. It was an indiana license plate. It'd be it's definitely possible. I think i think i found it interesting. That that's the first thing they they. They lead the press conference off that way. You know as the as the attention getter you know it's well it's also weird like first impressions. Are everything right. Your frat impression impression. And it's it starts off with with. That's the information we're seeking. Oh by the way. We're going to be giving you some more information. Which is i. don't. I'm not gonna pretend to be you know somebody that understands how you should deliver things in the best way to get what you want from the people you are addressing but it almost felt like when you're releasing a new sketch and then you're releasing a of a little piece of a video in telling the public that you're changing directions and your investigation. I felt like you know the captain. And i watched that press conference together when it when it went down that day and it almost felt to me like if i would have walked out onto the streets like family feud and interviewed one hundred people. I feel like ninety. Nine percent of them would forgotten about the whole vehicle parked thing by the end of that. Press conference yeah but not that suspect right. I mean who who is who is he addressing that part too as well. I think maybe he was. It was it was letting the guy. Hey this this is the part that had us confused but we figured it out and have this suspect that you're talking about dp is bridge guy. Then he's brash and if the rumors are true about the staging of the crime scene and some of the horrific stuff that i. I've heard rumor to be. You know they say he has a shred of decency left to come forward. Maybe he doesn't. But maybe somebody shelby cheryl or the cheyenne. Even though her stories haven't lined up. And maybe they could come forward and have some piece of information and again law enforcement has said over and over just one piece of information is all we need and then we get this guy and if you have any doubt that the that you're covering for this person if you have any thoughts in your head that this individual dp is responsible for these murders you have you owe it to yourself your to the community. You owe it to those two girls. You owe it to abby and liberty to come forward and talk to please and tell them the true story. Why don't you come forward. it's again it's hard to say. Why somebody they don't come forward or whatever like i said. There's there's a lot of reasons on could be. I would i would suspect at least give them the benefit of the doubt that it was probably innocent originally. They didn't realize what they were giving an alibi for. Now i would say it's time it's time for them to come clean and until what they tell what they know you know and what about. Ep's girlfriend it's like again. You probably have some information that you could share with law enforcement. And why aren't you doing that. One he saying that he was there cheated on you. So we'll we'll kind of scumbag. Is that in that all. You think you deserve this world as guy that cheats on you or guy that lies to you. Is that all you think you deserve. Maybe you should think that you deserve better and come forward and talk to the cops and tell them what you know because maybe you're the missing link and you owe that to yourself to your child. You owe that to abby. Yo that to libby i did. I did want to go back to clarify one thing though about About bg following the case. I think that's a crucial because the post crime activity in this case is is is kind of has a lot to do Led me to this. Was one of these cars. It's not too long in a television interview. Not too long. After the press conference he said i think the killers following this investigation very closely said when they asked him about releasing the second. She said we decided that. Through the information we received that we were going to release the second sketch. I don't believe the individual knew we were gonna do that so it was really really important. I think he was probably there or watching simply because he thought we were on the wrong path. I mean car. I mean he's basically telling you what you need to know. Their means basically saying the killer thought they. Why would the killer think. They're on the wrong path because because he let him do because he led them down. The wrong path pointed them in that direction. You mentioned earlier that something seems simple. There are things about this case that that that are very simple but it's also very complex in the in the in the In the post crime mile stuff. That's going on with all the Misinformation and misdirection in false stuff. That's been put out there now. Most of the stuff you seen out there has been kind of orchestrated. I don't think he's just been by chance of people. Random people following the case. I think there's the the guy did a good job for two years of keeping their keeping them off his trail off his tail off his trail. They they've now that they're on it. Maybe maybe he's trying to do it through social media. Yeah you what you're saying is expand on that a little bit too to kind of fill in the blanks there but you're saying overall as we would be foolish to believe that at some point. Bg has not is not only listening reading watching what he can find on tv and on the internet or these garage podcasts. Whoever would be dumb enough to do one of those but they that. He's not only doing that but he could. Actively be throwing in weird statements Posting things like one of the victims was pregnant. You know there was this found at the crime scene. Or one of the searchers said. They saw this day he could throw any of these things. If if he if what you are saying is correct skip and you know people. Some people were gonna listen this. And they're going to. They're not gonna like you. They're not gonna like me or the captain for having this conversation. But the one reason why i wanted to have this conversation with you and i spoke with you until till right now until today was the theory was interesting on its face and it remains interesting after i speak with you. Not just because of the points that you've brought up in the the interesting angles and things that you presented here but also you are not one of these. You're not one of these crazies. That go this is what happened. I know it all. This is how it went down and not willing to believe anything else. And that's why like talking with you today. And i appreciate you for being that way because so many people with this case and other cases have decided for whatever reason they know exactly what happened. And you can't tell them otherwise and anybody that says otherwise is a complete idiot. And i like to remind those people that if you were right than then why is it not solved. We won't know until it solved and there's no harm in having these conversations and doing these types of exercises when something is not solved. There's no nothing wrong with looking at things through from a different angle under different light from time to time and just asking the question. Why and you've done a great job of of coming up with this theory and and piecing it together Boy it's pretty simple idea if you claim that you're there and then your story has changed multiple times. Then what is the reason for line and by definition this eyewitness should then turn into a suspect. Eyewitness should turn and to a person of interest and when you look at this case for the last four years every person of interest that has brought been brought to the table no matter what crime they did or didn't do what you could never prove with any of those persons of interest that there were there the day That there were there that day at that bridge at that time frame And we're capable of of those murders. Yeah there there's a lot of stuff that we hadn't had a chance to go over just because of time but but But like we've start about before like having you be available to people on the blog. Absolutely i'd be. I'd be happy to answer any questions. Feel people feel people in on any gaps they have said there's more nuance obviously in a case like this and then We were able to talk about today. You know i agree with with the captain about you. Know the basic things they are about you know why lot of law enforcement whitey law enforcement tells us that this guy's following the case and they tell us that that there was a change in changing the reason for the change and all that so there's a lot there's a lot out there and like i said it is simple but it's complex. We didn't talk about things like modem and all that kind of stuff but you know it's Hopefully they'll hopefully the right person will here and hopefully the right person will change their mind on what they think's the right thing to do well and you know with other cases todd cole. Hep for instance. He went into superbike gunned down. A bunch of people killed them later. He took hostage killed the hostages boyfriend or husband and he was he was a felon before that he was a convicted felon before that well everything i just mentioned to. You are crimes involved handguns and firearms. And and he should not have had those and we said on our show when we covered his case. You know it would be. Why is law enforcement not pursuing the person that gave him or sold him these guns in some backwoods deal because he's not allowed to to own them. That person has some accountability in col- helps crimes and it was probably it. Of course it was an ad are doing. We didn't have anything to do with it. Would two two guys in a garage but it was months later. Eight months later. They arrested the person that sold them the guns here in this situation. You have the same thing if there is somebody that is providing this false alibi or false narrative for having seen things or or not seeing things on that day in february in two thousand seventeen. You need to come clean with that now because there will be an aftermath. This bridge guy will be identified caught and convicted. And when that happens. You're the next one your your butts on the fire next so you're fine now. I know you probably you're sitting here listening to this going. What do you mean i'm fine. It's been four years nick. No you're fine now because they don't know who. Bg is as soon as they know who he is. That's when you're that's when your feet will be held to flames so go. Tell them what you know now or if you if you made something up or if you just wanted to be a part of it because it's something and you wanna be something there's yes it's embarrassing yes. There is some shame that comes along with that but at the end of the day you can know that you did the right thing and you can know that you you do. You no longer can be held accountable. Because you've you've you've said what the truth is now i skip. I don't wanna get into any details. But again my own curiosity and kind of piecing together where i think what your overall story would be. I've always believed and i and i still do. And will until we until we have all the answers that this was a sexually motivated abduction. And i wanna leave it at that. I want to be very clear about my thoughts. I've always believed that this was a sexually motivated. Abduction is sounds to me like you without again without getting into details and going too far down any roads here other avenues. It sounds to me like you feel. This was a little more targeted. At least one of the victim was a was a target. And this possibly was a personal. 'cause homicide yes and the other victim may just be collateral damage. Unfortunately yeah sad. It really is. What's sad both both but of course yes. Yeah think. I think a lot of people. I've i've seen a lot of people are in this case in a lot of webs loose and i think a lot lot of those people have gotten things right. I think there's a drug component here. I think there's a revenge component but i don't think they're exactly at exactly the aspects of what people think they are. Unfortunately this may fall back come back fall back on a family member in terms of not that they were involved in the crime at all. The source of this personal vendetta may have originated there and i think that's unfortunate. I hope that doesn't go into has anything to do with. The crime is solved or not. But yeah. I think it's more. I do think it's There is a drug. Like i said in an a revenge aspect but it. But it's more personal than that. Join our discussion. If you have questions for skip he will be available. He'll be answering questions on our blog all week to make sure if you have any questions about information he's putting out you can ask him there at true crime. Garage dot com kernel. We have recommended reading for this week. This we camped and we are recommending alligator candy by david kushner. This is from award winning journalist and regular contributor to rolling stone magazine. David kushner gives us alligator candy a memoir about family survival and the unwavering power of love in nineteen seventy-three. David's older brother was murdered in decades. Later david found himself unsatisfied with his memories of this tragic life defining moment so he decided to revisit the episode through the eyes of a reporter. This is one of the best books that i've read in a while is available in all forms but the audio version with a brilliant performance by bronson pencho is particularly good checkout alligator candy by david kushner until next week be good. Be kind don't let.

Homestore indiana Doug carter doug carter derek ashley baba carroll county Ashley homestore ashley home store cheryl walser delphi lesin abby libby daniel nations daniel nations tobe lazenby tobe lesin fbi anna
Delphi Murders /// Under the Bridge /// Part 2 /// 510

True Crime Garage

56:32 min | Last month

Delphi Murders /// Under the Bridge /// Part 2 /// 510

"Many already have but if you have not. you're going to want to check out ashley. Homestore bill on a promise of style selection and unmatched value. Ashley homestore is the number one furniture and mattress retailer and north america offering everything from decor and accessories to outdoor furniture. And even your next perfect mattress ashley. Homestore provides products designed to last at affordable prices. So you can trust. You're getting the best deal without sacrificing quality. Visit a local ashley home store near you or shop online today ashley. Homestore dot com welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for listening i'm your host nick and with me as always ladies and germs here. He is the rock and roll outlaw. That's right. I'm talking about your captain. Yeah don't be a fart sniffer. It's good to be seen. It's good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend today. We are very lucky to still have some black tuesday grand reserve twenty twenty from the brewery. This is a massively complex imperial stout which is aged for two years and bourbon barrels and then an additional year in rye whiskey barrels garage. Great four and a five bottle caps and let's give some praise and cheers to our friends. That helped us out this week. I up a double barrel cheers and thanks to mary and luke listening and beecher illinois a big shots laura and union grove alabama and here. We have a cheers to tonga in guthrie oklahoma. Big we like your gyp to mark in austin texas. Here's another double barrel cheers to jakup and josette and loganville georgia and last but certainly not least we have carolyn. W in lincoln nebraska. Everyone we just mentioned they went to true crime garage dot com and helped us out with this week's beer fund and for that we thank you yeah. Vw double argue npr. Ron guys be patient. We're behind on the beer. Run so we will get to you when we get to you and that is enough of the business saw gathered around grab share. Grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime directly to the killer do do what will those closest to you think when they find out that you totally girder to holy cow reduce don't give stop doug carter and he is taking a stand. We'll take a listen in delphi community. How grateful i am you inspire people. You don't even understand why and you don't even understand why information's being released. Today is the result of literally thousands and and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by delphi carroll county the fbi the state police countless other agencies. This community surrounded us some twenty six months ago. And you did everything you could to support us but most importantly you surrounded the family of these two little girls. Gosh i'll never forget it after you hear. We're going to release today. I'm going to ask for your continued support. Your continued understanding your empathy and compassion As as we move forward to find out did this. And we will we're seeking the public's help to identify the driver vehicle that was parked at the old. Cps welfare building in the city of delphi that was abandoned on the east side of county route. Three hundred north next to the hoosier heartland highway between the hours of noon to five on february fourteenth. Two thousand seventeen there no who was parked there. Please contact the officers at the command. Post at the delphi city building. We're releasing additional portions of the audio recording from that day. Please keep in mind. The person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is not to different people speaking. Please listen to it very very carefully. We're also releasing video recovered from libya's phone. This video has never before been previously. Released video shows a suspect walking on the bridge when you see the video watch the watch the person's mannerisms as they walk watch the mannerisms as he walks. Do you recognize the mannerisms as big someone that you might know remember. He's walking on the former railroad bridge because of the deteriorated condition of the bridge. The suspect is not walking naturally due to the spacing between the ties during the course of this investigation we have concluded. The first sketch released will become secondary as of today. The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch which you will see shortly. Is the person responsible for the murders of these. Two little girls. We also believe this person is from delphi. Currently or previously lived here visit stealth fighter regular basis or works here. We believe this person is currently between the age range of eighteen and forty but might appear younger than his true age. Dirk directly to killer. Who may be in this room. We believe you're hiding in plain sight for more than two years. You never thought we would shift gears to a different investigated strategy but we have. We have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you and you want to know what we know. One day you will to question to you. What will those closest to you think of. They find out that you brutally murdered two little girls to children. Only a coward would do such a thing. We are confident that you have told someone what you have done or at the very least day. No because how different you are since the murders. We try so hard to understand how a person could do something like this too chilled to two children. I recently watched a movie called the shack. There's also a book the talk so well about evil about death and about eternity to the murderer. I believe you had just a little bit of conscience left. I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not. It's not they're experiencing today to the family. I hope you all will give them some time. Because we're going to be asking that there's no media inquiry or no media response for at least the next two weeks and i hope you'll understand why the family found out about this about this information this morning family to know that when i take my last breath on this earth i'll be thinking of them. There's going to be a tremendous amount questions. I know that i know that Never in my career have stood in front of something like this. Please be patient with us please. we're just beginning we are we are just now beginning and i can tell you on behalf of the sheriff and the police chief so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time that we will not stop directly to the killer. Maybe in this hour such what will those close to you. Think they find out burger to only our talk he stopped are right. Me and the colonel back in the garage talking with skip jansen about his person of interest dp and we will not stop. We've been working this case since the beginning spending hours upon hours outside of the garage talking with people and that's how we got hooked up with skip and his person of interest the there's so much to it that sense and so much that is still confusing but one of the things that's confusing. Why would they go with his sketch above a sketch that they had beforehand. I think i think it was a lot of it. Had to do what they saw on on the video. They thought maybe they saw. They saw an older guy. And i think it's important. Remember law enforcement was really emphasizing. You know about the younger face you know. Pay attention to his what his body is moves all of his all of that not not his face. I think the the video is not good representation of that and what law enforce early on. Thought they were looking at somebody who looked more like wind up in the first sketch than the second skit. Yeah i think what you've seen the picture of bg or you see the video bg. Your mind goes towards older gentleman. You see the second sketching of wow. That is not anything like. I pictured this person way younger. I think people still believe that you know. I think they see it in their mind that they that they see an older person. They and they can't get that they can't they can't change that they just got burned in the in the brain. I still think people were baffled by this case because in two thousand nineteen th press conference. They release the image of a way younger-looking individual saying he's between eighteen and forty well and at that point. That was when dp recanted his story and said that maybe he didn't see that guy. Maybe he saw flannel short guy. 'cause he realized that flannel shirt guy was in close proximity to where he was during the time on the trails or steady was so but he but again the scarf to me is the big takeaway if he saw somebody with scarf that he claimed was. Bg than now. You're saying that you may have seen fsu was effigy wearing. A scarf is well. He would've had to have been. I've never heard any evidence that. Fsu was wearing a scarf that day so it made a debt again. Just something else. That doesn't really line up with what he's saying he constantly is changing his story So confusing but also the picture there released in two thousand nineteen the predominant feature to me is the hair and there's rumors that he changes appearance after that. But what is dp doing between two thousand seventeen in two thousand nineteen Before that press conference that he stakes. He's he's gotten away with scot free. You gotta you've got a sketch out there that looks nothing like fbi said one of the things this might do. Changes appearance Well he wouldn't have any reason changes appearance. If the sketch didn't look anything like him right he actually did change. His appears after the two thousand nineteen press conference in the new sketch him out. Jay said greybeard so that would fall in line more with what they were what they were talking about. What i also feel like The two thousand nineteen press conference when they come out with information about the via corn asking for the driver. It's almost like they know who they're talking about. I think there was a lot of there will probably questions about that day. Hickel and who was in that vehicle and when it was there and who drove there and all that originally and i think they probably led off with that because they wanted him to know that they figured out how that all you know how it all went down and they'd been lied to about that. I think that's i think that's one thing i think that's one thing that people are misunderstanding. About one of the things about the case is that law enforcement. I was led astray for the first couple years. This case because of all of this because volvo misdirection in false information. They've admitted that there were alibis. That didn't didn't add up newspaper articles about it so when you see that. Is that where you go. Hey here's this guy online. He's saying i'm i'm at i witness. Here's here's the people as with all nope. Nope that's who us with some other people right so now we got a guy online saying i'm i witness there. He's changing his story but then his alibis quote unquote. His alibis would be changing their story as well. And then you see that happening online. And the new c. This language being used by please is that what sparks you to go. I think this guy should be a person of interest absolutely. Yeah i mean have getting law enforcement false information as is the reason people do it. I mean it saab. If you come forward. You're the expectation is you're telling the truth there's you know there's there's a reason you're trying to send him down one path and so yeah that's dance your question. Yeah that's exactly. Why looked into him as a person veterans so you think two thousand nineteen there directly talking to your person of interest dp. Can you explain that a little bit more. I think. I think a lot of things i think. Just about everything they said in their. You know the fact that somebody this guy had been has been following the case. And that's that's one another thing is that one of the reasons law enforcement has been so skittish about about releasing stuff is not because they don't have anything or not because you know they're june for another reason law enforcement isn't releasing information because they know this guy is following it and using that information to his benefit. Okay that that's pretty obvious. So that's one of the things. I think that The lease of the sketch was out. There everything changed disgust. This guy was not talking anymore. He didn't seem so eager to get wanna get his story out there. But i think everything they said and it was very pointed at particularly at at one individual. Get over the fact that after this press conference were they won their turning a new direction or taking the new direction. But they're point the whole conference to the killer. This is calling out the killer and then to have this person of interest change their appearance after the press conference. I have a real hard time getting over that. Yeah he yeah exactly and his his hair was you know. I know sketches not a photo but his hair was would depend similar before he shaved it to. What you what you saw in the sketch. When when do you know when he started pulling away from online chats and not long after not long after that one of the exact day but not long after the press conference you mentioned earlier about some of the things that were said. I think that when they said directly to the killer might be in this two. We believe you're hiding in plain sight and the part about you never thought we would shift gears to a different Investigative strategy that. That goes to what i said about think he thought he was. He got away with. You never thought you know. They knew that he knew there was another sketch. But you know. He never thought that they were gonna change to that. And i think that was that was that was them making him aware that kind of the jig is up. They also said that they've likely interviewed him. We know he went and talked to law enforcement. He was making some statements about talking with law enforcement online. He stayed online that he went there and talked law enforcement a couple of times as saying that he was there trying to help him. That was his. That was the word to us he was. He was a good samaritan destroying to help out so again changes his story. He was there Again changed the story multiple times with changing. His appearance. Were always told the lookout for that. Then we have a i witness. That is now lawyer. Earn up and pulling away from social media. He certainly has been making any social media comments or anything like that like he was early in the case one heard his name brought up with a couple of people that i've been investigating the case with and back in the day he had his. You could see everything on social media could see his post. You can see who is friends with. He seems to have very very much so gone dark on the internet. You can't find much about this individual you can't see anything you can't say anything online about him at all. It's almost like you went dark. Well and plus he's a he's an. It person he actually when he was a sophomore junior in high school. He designed the county's website. Seems like he has talent in this field. Which you've told me personally that you think that's the reason why there's been so much misinformation from the beginning. Maybe he had access to things that other people didn't but is possibly the older individual that one of them was talking to online and and is he the reason for the scrubbing of the cell phone. Can you explain that a little bit. Well it she basically scrubbed her phone re re booted it restarted lucette. It said she had some glitches. Maybe that's true. Maybe it's not. Maybe the maybe she had been talking with somebody online. Certainly someone with computer skills would know the reason to why you would why you would reset your phone like that to get rid of any information or or any trail of people you've been talking with one of the things i brought up to one of our discussions is we know that stamp chap photos were being posted. We know that one was posted at roughly. I think two oh seven right. I believe is the time. But there's no mention about. Do they take a couple pictures beforehand and post those. Did they take a couple pictures after those in post those we're not privy to that information. I'm assuming if people were saying well. They were walking on the bridge. Talk and take pictures and they were at the park for awhile already. I'm assuming that there was a couple stamp. Chance already uploaded. But that doesn't matter if you are following them the be able to do a search in you and a seen their avatars at the part. That's right yeah. And basically if you're in delphi. Even some of the furthest pope points you're talking about a fifteen to twenty minute drive to get there right. So did this person of interest was he there Law enforcement says if that car is connected to the killer at twelve or one o'clock maybe his maybe it was set up that way or it's a situation where the person was tracking them through stamp chat. Yeah is he has very possible he would In like you said he would be just a minute. Strive or short minute drive away from being able to access the bridge from anywhere in that area. So what we know that dp new their family. The the dp. Yeah one yeah one of the things. He says on on social media that he knew the girls and he had ridden the bus with him before. I think he left. Maybe half a mile but you know in the family. I don't know how well you know. I don't know how well they were different. Ages ain't dp at the time was twenty two or twenty three. Obviously you know seven or eight years older than abby or libby would have been so but we believe that dp rode. The bus with libby lived within a couple miles from them also. Dp's sister-in-law was one of their softball coaches. Yeah dt's brother. Quentin wife was was lady sophomore libby softball coaches. Why haven't we arrested. If everything that you guys are saying is in fact true. It doesn't seem like that difficult of a case and where i'm going with. That is a couple of things. Okay so we can. We can sit here and analyze and question and speculate as to why libby reset her phone but what we do what. I what i want to make sure that we're really touching on is there are facts. There are a lot of facts that are known in this case it just takes a lot of different locations and a lot of different places to peel them from in piece them together now in regards to her phone. The the statement from libya's family was that the phone was actually of factory reset that was conducted by terra. Her and the they the phone required the reset because the phone was not working properly. Because it was an iphone six and everybody remembers old phones. They fill up very quickly with too much stuff and they have no memory left and then they don't work at all and part of the reason why they had trouble locating the girls was that there was apps. Find my phone and things like that on on the phone. But because of that factory reset those absent not been uploaded once again to the phone right so we we know that the factor reset happened. We know that tara was the one. According to libya's family was the one that conducted the factory reset. So that's where that's where. I question a little bit. How much was if we're if we're making if we're going to make the leap and say that libby was hiding something that she asked for the factory reset. No i'm not missing. that fact. Obviously she she would have had to have a conversation with somebody for it to be conducted. She didn't do the factory reset because she didn't know how to write. Yeah i i think again the now she would have lost everything she will all. She liked to take pictures and photographs. I think she lost all of that. I think the the first question would have been you know. If you're having a glitch ahead. I'll save all my photos and all that kind of stuff i don't want to get rid of but what we've been told is that she just asked for reset. I mean not saying. I'm not saying they're lying. I'm not saying that they're lying. I'm saying that. I think there's a reason for the reset reasons. The glitch some girl that as you take our foes she would lose all that and that seems problematic to me and that factory reset happened ten days before right. That's the other thing that i do wanna make sure that we bring up as well. The has gone on the record saying that of course libya was on facebook snapchat twitter and instagram and her. Becky and mike had her passwords as well as they were friends on all four. Yeah you know. I don't know that that's that the phone is a huge piece of evidence. In this case. I think it it may explain. The you know the fact that she that Somebody knew she was going to be there that day or are in. She had been speaking with someone. But i don't know that that you know. Because i don't think there's anything Absolute about it. I don't think you can draw anything. Absolute coming out you know 'cause he admitted newer mid it. Yeah so it's not like he was on that secret about that. I believe at one point. He was friends with libya on facebook. Yeah so i think again. I i think next point is very valid. It's like well if you just believe everything said. She routes set this phone because there was a glitch she still yeah sure what is still had to do all that stuff and maybe she said look. This phone is constantly not working. I don't care if it saves any of the stuff. I just want my phone to work. So i want to be clear here. I'm not challenging. Either one of you guys. I'm just what i'm pointing out or challenging the theory itself. I mean there could be any mill. There could be a million reasons why she wanted. The there could be a million reasons why she wanted the phone reset. All i'm trying to do as we lay out this theory is there again. There are known facts or statements from the family and from other individuals. And i wanna make sure that we're presenting that from all sides so right. We're throwing speculation here. It's it's it's more than fair to do so because that's all we're left with at this point but along the way i am going to remind of of of what few facts that we do know to be or statements from the family. I just wanna make sure that. I'm presenting those as we go because it'd be irresponsible to not do so And then the statement in regard to libya's phone from law enforcement is that facebook snapchat twitter instagram and all online contacts were Things all of that was accessed analyzed and all online contacts track down interviewed the other thing when we talk about technology. That's bizarre here. In this case that we don't have an arrest is that we know that. Isp indiana state. Police did subpoena the phone records for any phone. That pinged within a five mile radius of the moment high bridge during that timeframe that day so they've got a long list of phones that they know to have been in that area at that time. Yeah add another reason for someone to gump come forward knowing their phone being there. I mean if i knew iphone was anywhere near there and paying their. I'd come forward to just that. That goes again to toward. Why would you come forward right. But the reason why i'm going down this path is because it's sounding more and more to me like this is not a random. I'm looking for any type of victim here at the trail or near the bridge. It sounds it sounding more and more to me like this one or both of these girls were targeted and yeah in my opinion definitely targeted and for it to go down that day in this manner. The perpetrator needs to know that they're going to be there that day and the phone is one way that he could have known as up and his point out. Now the difficult thing to do here also is the statement from law enforcement in regards to additional audio. That was found on the phone from that video and to be clear. There's only one video the the picture we have is from the video. The audio we have is from that video. There was one video as far as what we've been told by law enforcement and the additional audio is briefly described as typical girl talk but also discussing the man and where they could be going again it gets a little tricky to me if they if one of them are both of them may have known the suspect. Right i mean don't don't they say his name or give i mean there's there's a whole mountain of reasons why we don't have somebody in handcuffs waiting on a trial right now. Yeah well in my opinion to be honest with you is the first two years of the again. Carter says in the press conference. Were just beginning. We're just now beginning. Okay at tells me. Let's throw away the first two years. Somebody law enforcement into believing something that went down the wrong path. Yeah they went down the wrong path and gave this guy two years to cover every track to get rid of every piece of evidence to get his story right to follow the case which they Talked about numerous times that they they know. This guy is keeping up with the case following it so that first two years plus another thing that hasn't been discussed is if this guy is brought in as a witness. Okay there they possibly have some maranda issues. This guy wasn't read his rights before he started before he when he said he went in to help. Law enforcement at know is that is that are they going to do. They does the district attorney realize that and does law enforcement or the police realized that isp and carroll county realized that hey we may have some maranda problems because this guy was interviewed as a witness in anything he said whether we think it's alive or not can't be used because he wasn't read his rights very interesting this summer you can go back to enjoy in life's little pleasures like seeing a movie and going to the post office okay. Some parts of normal life aren't so great. Luckily with stamps dot com. You can skip the trips to the post office. May on ship any time anywhere right from your computer. Send letters ship packages and paid last with discounted rates from usps and ups official us postage and shipping labels using a standard printer stabs dot com saving. Nearly one million small business owners like you time and money with their switch and save feature. You can compare carriers to find the best rates any time. I've been saying for years stamps. Dot com is a must for any small business owner. Stop wasting time gwen to the post office and go to stamps dot com instead. There's no risk with my promo code garage. You get a special offer that includes a four week. Trial plus free postage a digital scale no long term commitments or contracts. Just go to stamps. dot com. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and typing garage. That stamps dot com promo code garage. Stamps dot com. Never go to the post office again. True crime karaj is sponsored by better help online therapy as we begin to see the light at the end of the kovic tunnel a lot of people are still feeling down an emotionally out of sorts. You may not feel depressed or add a total loss. But if you're feeling a little bit off or your relationships are suffering. That could be a sign that you should talk to somebody. Online therapy can help. Better help is not a crisis line. It's not self help is professional therapy done securely online. You guys know that. I've had my own struggles with depression. Talk therapy is something. I can't recommend enough. And what i believe is the best and simplest solution is better help. It has worked wonders for me. And i think he could work wonders for you. Fill out a questionnaire to help. Better help assess your needs and match you with a professional licensed therapist. Start communicating with your therapist and under forty hours scheduled secure weekly video phone or even live chat appointments there have a broad range of expertise. That may not be locally available in your area log into your account any time to send a message to your therapist. Better how committed to great matches. So it's easy and free to change therapists if needed. It's more convenient and more affordable than in person. Therapy and financial aid is available. Our listeners get ten percent off their first month at better help dot com slash garage. That's better h. e. l. p. dot com slash garage. Check out better help dot com slash garage today. Remember the filling ugas as a kid of gidding tucked into bed or the feeling that you get now and the arms of somebody love safe and secure. It's a feeling of security. That only comes their human connection. And that's why the people at simplisafe home security are so important of course simply safe as award winning system that has all the technologies bells and whistles that you can expect these days but the people at simplisafe really take it to the next level. They're they're round the clock anytime you need them. Whether it's a fire a burglary a medical emergency a. bursted pipe or even a problem while you're setting up the system. Simplisafe has a person with expertise. You need ready to help. Twenty four seven. And when you know there's always somebody there to help. Well that's a feeling that you just don't get with any old security system. We use simply safe not just here in the garage but also to protect our own homes. We went with simply safe because the high quality equipment and great camera footage. How many cases have we covered where they have camera footage. But it's not good camera footage. That's why we recommend simplisafe to find out how simplisafe can make you feel safe and secure at home visit simplisafe dot com slash garage today to customize your system and get a free security camera. That's s i. M p l. I. s. a. f. e. dot com slash garage today took out simplisafe dot com slash garage today to feel safe insecure at home walk and one of the things that you talked about is. Why would they go with. Dp's version of the schedule as opposed to somebody else's and it could be the small town factor dp comes from Prominent family and you think that played into some of their decisions or also the fact that he did work for the county when he was in high school. Yeah he like. I said he designed the a county website and yeah. I think that i think again. I think the the small town aspect in this case can't be overplayed. It's just it's i think it's huge and how small town people feel and if law enforcement saw a kid coming from a prominent family. Everybody knows who says he's witness. There's no reason for them not to believe it. I think in two thousand eighteen when the when the georgia bureau of investigation got involved. Because they wanted they were doing a peer review and warned a fresh set of eyes. I think that's probably the time that they realized something doesn't add up with these stories. Some done add up. Your witness story. Denied add up about the vehicle. Some denied about the time line and they were able to take the bias in the prejudice out of it that the local guys may have that. Hey couldn't be this guy 'cause like it or not that happens on law enforcement makes mistakes just like everybody else. They're human. And when the gbi i came in they were able to take the baya's out of it and i think that's when they realized that. Hey maybe the stories that we've been told we've been led down the wrong path we've been we've been lied to. And that's and that's why then you know not shortly thereafter the beginning two thousand nineteen in april. They do the press conference in released. New sketch Again a sketch they had two or three or four days after the murders and again they think they released the first one because older sketch because they thought that was more along the lines of what they were seeing on the video and they had witnesses who said they saw him flight that seems like the likelihood that seems like obvious way to go right is to release that one. That's the guy when gb i came in and they looked over everything they realized. Hey you know. Things aren't the way they seem. And that sketch that we had originally is more in line with who we think this guy is and i. I wonder if that at that point to to go over multiple interviews or do they re because 'cause carter. I've said this multiple times when we run out of leads. Go back to the beginning. And that's right. That sounds like that's a good point. Yeah when they went back to the beginning. And maybe i mean we have online dp saying that i've talked to law enforcement. Multiple times was right. Was it the second time that they talked to you that your story didn't make sense with your first story. Your story didn't match. Your story or cheryl story didn't match story or shelby. Hicks story didn't match your story right. Yeah they. I think that the the time line is the most important thing because again i go back to what i said originally about not wanting to be under that bridge between two thirty three thirty dp admitted to a source that he was the reason that our he was part of the arguing couple. Okay and the reason. The reason for that was. He explained it as that. They explained why the girl he was with didn't see. Bg they said they ran into bg or bid. You walk past them. The girl he was with didn't see her and the reason was because they were arguing. Okay now if you're part of the arguing couple and derek runs into fsu around three twenty. And he's coming from the high bridge and tells derek that he adjusts heard an arguing couple under the bridge but just before that puts arguing couple guy under that bridge around three o'clock but that's what he said online. but what is he saying to law enforcement. We don't know apartment of arguing couple. Well who's the girl you're with. Well it was my fiance and they go talk to her and she goes. I wasn't there was this girl Because then that would have made. Basically the first time they ever talked to him Suspicious right. But but i think that's really why jumps out to me is what he's constantly changing his stories online and you can actually see what he posted and go. Well that doesn't make any sense with the last thing he posted and this guy is also claiming to be. They're also claiming to be eyewitness. But like you said okay. I'm arguing couple. That's under the bridge about three o'clock anything under the bridge to me as part of the crime scene because we have we have the audio clip of them sane of of the murderer san guys down the hill correct and we know that The most likely way they got to where they ended up Where they were found would have been down the hill by the under the bridge. Down cross that private drive over the creek in into the final spot. So yeah you he would have known definitely you know. They were definitely known he was there at that time or he would definitely have been there at that time. If these admitting to being a arguing couple maybe maybe. That was the statement that in terms of you know. Hey you know. I used it to explain away while the girl didn't see it but this backfired because of whatever she and the and also may tie into why. He says why he recanted about the original. Instead maybe he thought he saw his g he strike because he knows that puts him there in that spot and again. That's the last place the part wants to be is near that bridge under that between two thirty and three thirty so one thing. I'm a little unclear on here. Skip the regardless of what girl. He claims he was there with his. This woman been identified and saying that they were there with dp that day. She has it come out publicly now. Now it's been sending like captain said what's been talked about law enforcement. I don't know if nobody's publicly. Come out and said they were with dp day. Okay so if he is if he was in fact there by himself. That seems a possibility. We don't have anybody stating i was the person he claimed to have been there with in either story. Chris both stories have him with somebody else. Correct diane sees them. Is he with somebody. She says he's with yeah. She's his one corroborating but again there's nobody there to that. Says they saw her. We don't know that she was there and her stories changed Multiple times you know her. Her story carries a little weight because of the posting of that picture. But if you look at yeah yeah you'd have to. You'd have to decide for yourself whether you think the legitimacy of that photo i mean i'm not saying it's not it's a real photo We don't we don't know one hundred percent everything about it She said she went there to take photos that day. She showed just a couple of pictures. I mean you know seemed like you take you take a lot. He went there to take photos on the stuff that was wrong with the time stamps to write her the time. Stamps said an hour difference than what she claimed was she. I thought she had posted something she did. She just that was the problem. It didn't it did that time. Didn't line up with what the time timestamps said because at some point she's posted from across the bridge close to the murder scene. Yes from the south side. Yeah i think one of the one of the things that people have questions about is is. Why didn't they you know. Why didn't they grill him. All that stuff again early on law enforcement was looking for. Rso's they had there was a serial killer theory. possibly at the is putting out flyers all over the country. They were going down a totally different road. They were they. Were looking for an older guy. Possibly like set a serial killer sexual offender. They weren't looking for some someone in their twenties locally and so the focus of the investigation again. That's one carter said we're just now beginning in two thousand. Nineteen press. conference is because the information that they gathered over that period of time changed. And that's why the emphasis was on his local. He's younger and we have a sketch of him. What is cheyenne's motivation for pretending to be there. That day i don't know one hundred percent. I don't i wouldn't even really venture to guess what somebody reasons. Why give somebody album. If he will do it all the time they do it for love. Fear money way to hang on because the her motivation for pretending to be there. That day would be giving dp an alibi. If in fact that's not been made clear to anybody listening yet that that so your your thought is that cheyenne was with dp that day. No no okay. I don't again until until somebody verifies that. They saw her there. I don't know that she was there at all. But what would be her motivation for pretending to be there like. I said it could be numerous things. People people provide alibis for other people. All the time issue. She could have been doing it as a as May have been innocently. That i may have been you know she. He thought she knew he needed. He knew he needed an alibi. If you went to law enforcement say he was there. Somebody's gotta play. Somebody's gotta say yes selling there so you can't say get put himself in the middle of the crime scene so he puts himself at a different spot. But that's gotta be corroborated. He knows that so. But what's weird to me about dp and there and like again. Cheyenne is the fact that there's nobody that is saying that we saw him there. I mean he's admitting to be being there so we assume he's there right but nobody is saying that they saw him where their story hasn't changed or has it been contradicted in some way. That's right that's exactly right. I'm getting a little lost here. Because i but but i agree with nick where it's like. Okay so her stories. Don't line up. But why would she even say at all that she was there. Why would she say that she saw him at all mean again it could. It could have been. He could Coerced or for whatever reason in you know in the believe look he he could. He would tell me to tell him by. Hey i was there. But i need somebody to say i was there you know i didn't. It wasn't me look at the video. That's not me obviously And they would buy that you know. And so she may. She may give him an alibi in. Just doing the innocently. I don't know that that would still be the case I would think there can be hard to believe that was still be the case but but that's possible reason any of anybody that was giving him an alibi could been by originally didn't realize what they were giving an alibi. Four right. that's fair. i'm just. I'm just pointing out that we're seeing on with one hand. That if dp says he was there then we should believe that to be true but if cheyenne says she was there we shouldn't believe to be true it or we should question what i think we should question. More is not so much whether or not she was there but we do know is base of what she has told people online. And what the these posts in these other things that the time line is very contradicted so i would say i go to for as far as say dp has said he's there. He said he's eyewitness. Cheyenne has come forward and told talked to a bunch of sources online and said that she was eyewitness not to bridge guy but that she saw gp. They're right right. I questioned more her timeline and so so if she says well i saw dp there. Okay you saw dp there and it doesn't even matter if you saw him with a girl because if she saw him at two o'clock with a girl and it's at a distance we don't know if that's not libya ami right we don't know where she's saying that she saw him at right. So that's all i'm saying is that we know that her story has shifted and more so i just don't i i don't even know if she's the essentially lying for dp. I think she might just be. You know all wise. Yeah i saw him at three but really it was four or maybe it was too. We don't know well ask yourself why she was talking publicly anyway. I mean she didn't say gee never claimed to see. Bg so hurt her. Basically her existence in the case. is explaining who she saw that day. So she's coming forward and saying who she saw she. She didn't see the bridge guy. Says she offers nothing in terms of a witness to seeing the guy who you know but she sang. Oh and she's trying she's putting people in certain places. I saw this guy and he was with this girl. And i saw girl that i didn't know what was going to be there so for me that that's that's best she's doing is just is witnessing witnesses. Yeah but she also could be discovered online. Because there's such a fascination with this case. I think she was talking. She started talking though early before the case ever got to a point where it was had gotten crazy like this. But have i been bamboozle because the information i have says that cheyenne posted a picture that afternoon. She did. Yeah so there mean. That's that's what. I'm trying to get to here where we're circling around this a lot about whether she was there not but that doesn't that posting of the picture add to credibility of her physically being there that afternoon. Maybe maybe not. i mean. The picture didn't like it was even from the same day. As a matter of fact. It looks like what i was asking me. Yeah it looked like it had fog in it it. Also the time stamp that originally she showed on the picture didn't lineup when she point she said she was there she possibly could have been. There could have been early or whatever but even even if it wasn't let's say she's off by an hour. Let's say she's off by seven our side. I don't really care about that. What i'm trying to point out is that we know she posted a picture that afternoon. Right claiming to be there. What i'm getting at is for someone to go. Oh well i just want to be a part of this. It gets a little difficult to you. Can't go back in time and post that picture to add to your credibility later that you were in fact there because that afternoon nobody knows what had happened. It's not an event yet. it's not. It's nothing yet yeah We don't know until that evening that there in fact missing. We don't know until by the killer noon. The next that they were they were killed by the killer right but we need to say that here rather than dance around it you know we. We need to be presenting a direct story with timeline in narrative for this series. She offered up the photo as as as proof that she was there. Because this is the first time anybody's questioned her story and not making sense. Y- naked straight employees. Now now's yeah. She offered up a photo of proof. But didn't she also post that photo the day of the murders on her social media. Is she posted. She said she posted it. Yeah i think maybe it was the one where the timeframe was just or the time stamp was all again she. She did come day but she her story is is always may sense where she says she is. A certain time has never made sense again. I go back to that why you come forward but why are you tell. Why are you saying things that don't add up and and changing your story and all that i don't i don't understand that the is not making sense. So many people have multiple contradicting stories. When you have three storeys only one of them can be true. And why would you protect somebody that murdered a thirteen and fourteen year. Old girl absolutely makes no sense. It makes you as big of a piece of shit as murder. What are your thoughts on skips theory of his person of interest. We wanna hear from you at true crime garage dot com and click on the blog. And then join us back here for part three here in the garage until then be good. Be kind

Homestore libya delphi ashley libby Ashley homestore ashley home store beecher illinois union grove alabama jakup doug carter delphi city building maranda skip jansen greybeard Hickel carroll county fbi josette fsu
Delphi Murders /// Under the Bridge /// Part 1 /// 509

True Crime Garage

51:51 min | Last month

Delphi Murders /// Under the Bridge /// Part 1 /// 509

"Many already have but if you have not. you're going to want to check out ashley. Homestore bill on a promise of style selection and unmatched value. Ashley homestore is the number one furniture and mattress retailer and north america offering everything from decor and accessories to outdoor furniture. And even your next perfect mattress ashley. Homestore provides products designed to last at affordable prices. So you can trust. You're getting the best deal without sacrificing quality. Visit a local ashley home store near you or shop online today ashley. Homestore dot com welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you doing. Thanks for listening. I'm your host. Nick and with me as always is a man that knows it. Fortunetellers make a killing. Nowadays here is the captain. Call me old swami. it's good to be seen. It's good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for tom affront. This week we are featuring black tuesday grand reserve twenty twenty by the incredible men and women over at the brewery if you're looking for them online that's spelled b. r. u. e. r. y. This is delicious. Triple barrel aged imperial. Stout with a whopping twenty two percent. Ab visa. Drink this at home in your garage. Garage grade four out of five bottle caps and a very special thank you to thomas from dallas. Pa for sending this beauty to us here of the garage. Big shutout costa jennifer from ravina ohio. Next up captain. We have lena sending her love all the way from sweden a big. We'd like your job to henry in new rochelle new york. Next we have cheryl west columbia texas and last. But certainly not. Least we have audrey in boone north carolina. Everybody we just mentioned went to true crab garage dot com and they helped us fill up the fridge for this week. Shows them for that. We thank you. Yeah b. r. n. Beer ron if you need more. Cg for your ear. Buds check out our bonus show called off the record. It's on stitcher premium. You can find a link at our website at true crime garage dot com and that is enough of the bees. Alright everybody gathered around. Grab a chair. Grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime directly to killing him. Maybe this such will those closest to you think they find out the murder to do search talca. He twenty four hours of course since they were reported missing. Thirteen year olds. Liberty german abigail williams last seen around one o'clock monday afternoon near the monan high bridge. They had abandoned rail bridge. Just outside of delphi news. Eighteenth brad open heim joins us now live from carroll county where that search continues at this hour brad. Jeff like you said liberty. German and abigail williams were last seen yesterday afternoon when they were dropped off near that bridge now they had made arrangements to be picked up by family members later that afternoon but they never showed up now. A staging area has been set up at the delphi fire department. And since i've been here. I've seen hundreds of people come in and out of this staging area. We are told that volunteers will be sent out in groups where they will comb the area and efforts to find these two girls. I was able to actually catch up with abigail. Williams mother anna williams and she says she is amazed by the outpouring of support from the community. I also spoke with carol. County sheriff tobe lesbian. He says they're working with officials on getting an amber alert issued. Just in the last couple of hours. I have been at the stage area. I've seen in spoke from volunteers. They don't even live in carroll county including one man from west lafayette who came over and join the search. He said he has a teenage daughter himself and wanted to do what he could to make. Sure those girls make it home safe directly to the killer home insured those close to you think they find out the murder too only a cowardly do search count. Give we ought. We're here in the garage. Colonel talking with skipped johnson about who he believes should be the number one person of interest skip win. Did you start your investigation into the delphi. Murders let's get question. I probably been looking into it for the last year or so. I guess i got into it. Because i thought it was els intrigued by the fact that there were audio and video of the killer and i thought it was even more unique. That one of the victims had was the one who had done the video of him. So that's how i kinda got started looking into it. And what do you think. So many people on the internet have been fascinated with the delphi murders. Another good question. I think probably those reasons as well as i think the small town aspect plays a part in it. And i think that the fact that you know anytime to children are murdered. People have a fascination with at and for people that don't know delphi has a population of just under three thousand individuals. Yeah very very low populated area in the unusual thing about it is for a town that has less than three thousand people. I've never seen a case had this many potential persons of interest on the internet. There's hundreds of side by sides but law enforcement has stated over and over in different press conferences that they believe the killer is local to delphi. Correct i agree with that. If that's what you're asking. I think the the area that the crime was committed in this is such a remote area that the odds of this being someone who was dramatic town or random type murder. I think the odds are probably a little too long for that. Yeah i wanna echo that. But i do want to point out that they have what what their exact words are is that we believe that you the person is local someone either from delphi living in delphi or someone who works there so not necessarily doesn't have to be an actual member of the delphi proper population. According to those words and statements that have been released by law enforcement but do agree one hundred percent with you skip captain given the nature of the crime scene and the monan high bridge the trail system there there are people that live in delphi and live in carroll county that i've spoken to or heard in interviews state that they didn't even know those trails existed or the bridge existed so for some random person to just find that and use that as a the killer used this as a hunting ground whether he intended to kill someone there or not. He was hunting for prey for a victim or victims. That day at that location and given what i've seen and reviewed as far as maps go i would like to go there and walk the terrain myself but given the remoteness of that area in the lay of the land. Somebody had have familiarity with that location. I agree with that. I think people get misled a little bit. Sometimes they say look at google maps and and see that one of the rose at the bridge off of highway three hundred which is just a little small country two lane road. The people think that that's maybe a larger more travelled area and it's just not so we have discussed many possible people of interest on the show and with arrest like chadwell and so many other arrests throughout the country and people having side by sides one day. that's tough with all those individuals. Are they capable of committing crimes. Yes but can you put them and delphi. The day of the murders but with your person of interest you can actually put them at the park. The day of the murders. Yes that's right. He was there he admitted he was there. He was there as he said he was. With a female he actually was was the One of the witnesses for the original sketch that was released some people referred to as old bridge guy a odd answer that question. Yes he's he's. The first one that i know of that was admittedly there. So your personal interest. Amidst that he was there and also amidst that he has talked to law enforcement and he came forward and he is the reason for the first sketch that has been released. Do you know if you're person of interest was a part of any of the searches that day. He was part of any search. I just know that he was there around the time of the murders and he was in close proximity to the area that Where the girls were found. So the girls went missing on february thirteenth but their bodies weren't found so february fourteenth. Yeah that's correct around noon on the fourteenth. So just add a little clarity here in regards to the timeframe that we're talking about we're talking about february thirteenth. Two thousand seventeen now libby. An abbey were dropped off approximately one forty five in the afternoon. This is according to kelsey. Who dropped them off at the trail head and the a snapchat picture of abbey was posted at two o seven. Pm on that day and it's believed based off of the evidence that we have that being the still picture which comes from the video which was then released at a later date the still picture bridge guy. Correct it it due to the positioning of the sun What we can see in that video we can tell that the abduction took place between two twenty pm and two forty pm that afternoon so relatively quickly things are moving very fast. The girls are dropped off in less than an hour later. They are abducted less than a half an hour later. That picture is posted on snapchat of abbey. It's kind of mind boggling. How we have this perpetrator lurking waiting in the shadows. If you will looking for potential prey and it just so happens to line up with about the time that they're dropped off and for my understanding skip and you can correct me if i'm wrong that it's approximately about a half mile from the trail head to the bridge itself which two girls taking their time. Maybe they went a roundabout way. There's two different options to get you to that. Monin high bridge that timelines up all those times really line up with about how long it would take someone on foot to get to that bridge and when you say that this guy your guy has admittedly his own words put in place him at the crime scene at about the same time that the abduction and murder took place and i don't want to be clear there. Even though they're murdered at that location and left there they were abducted. I mean they were. They were moved in corralled and directed by the killer where to go for that because we have audio evidence of correct and we don't know for exactly what reasons but you're saying this guy has played himself there during this timeframe and the other thing that's key to hone in on at this point to when we're discussing times on that day is according to law enforcement. They believe whatever took place because again. They're not telling us exactly what happened. Whatever took place was done and over with probably relatively quickly but at least by five. Pm that day. yeah correct. Because that's what that's the timeframe that they say that The car was at the cps building at the two thousand nineteen press conference that they lead that off with that that they were looking for the driver which i thought was interesting of the vehicle that was parked there from twelve to five. I thought it was unusual. They ask for the drive about the drivers. Seems like maybe they know about what the who the vehicle is. And that's something that we can get into a little bit but let me say a couple of things. i think. Report it one thing. One thing i've learned is that law enforcement in a perpetrator have a hundred and eighty degree opposite. Agendas and i'm not talking about just the simple fact that law enforcement wants to catch this guy and the sky that the perpetrator doesn't want to be called how that relates to this case is and it goes back to what you were talking about about the time. His law enforcement wants to play somebody there between under that bridge near that crime scene between about two thirty three thirty that afternoon. Okay the perpetrator wants to be anywhere else. But under that bridge between two thirty and three thirty okay. And that's something. I think that that the listeners should keep in mind as we as we go along here because there's been a ton of misinformation deflections ball information. Put out as we again as we talk about that you'll see some of that. Maybe people changing their timeframes when they were there who they were with where they parked and things like that well. It's hard to know because we're not from that area. We don't know how popular this park is. It's a day where there's no school. How many people do you think are at the park during the time of the murders i. It's it's hard to say i. I've identified maybe six or seven. I know there's been another has been people who've said they were up to fifty people. I don't buy that at all. I think they were just a few identified six or seven so people put the time for of the murders and between two thirty. And let's say three thirty but we know that because the girls weren't responding and somebody was trying to pick them up and this miscommunication would have started about three clark. Yeah i think. I think liberals dad derek had arrived and started walking the trails around three o'clock just after and that was that was about the time they started realizing you know something was wrong dare called liberties phone at three eleven. That afternoon in this is as he was getting close. He's driving vehicle to go pick up the girls. There was no set time when they were dropped off. What time they would be picked up. It was a roundabout time right and the the statement was or always has been the derek would call libby when he got close so they could meet him at the trail head and we know that. That call took place at three eleven. He's unable to get a hold of her. She doesn't answer the phone. He then arrives shortly after that. Three eleven phone call and starts to walk the trails looking for the girls. I think one important things is is that where he parked is an area called the mirrors lot. Which is it's all the same place that the girls were dropped off. It's just a small area private area but The locals knew it as a place to had easy access to the trails. The trail head like you said right there though is just a short walk to the bridge and it's called the miers lot because the mirrors family farm is right sister th right across the street and exactly they may have own portions of that additional land at one right in this area area that you can just get a few cars in at one time. Three or four five. Maybe max so it's just a small area but the locals knew about one the portent of this being a small location and like you said could only fit maybe five cars as that. Your person of interest claims that around three o'clock his car would have been parked in that lot. That's what tony said. he arrived. Yeah and he said he started walking slowly down the trail with a female. But we haven't had any other eyewitness come forward and say that they saw your person of interest walking with this female. We have any bay. Come forward and say that they saw them. That's well that. Yeah that's correct not not anybody that we that has said anything publicly. I do believe that he was saying later on but but now nobody has publicly. Said they saw him. Nobody corroborated that and we'll also odd about this. One claimed that your personal interests made is the timeframe he would have run into possibly derek or possibly flannel shirt guy at the trail head around this time period. Yeah dan dare. He started on walking on the on the trails. He ran into an older man older gentleman who's referred to as flannel shirt guy and ask him if seen the girl two girls and he said no. But there's a couple arguing under the bridge. So derek took the other path. I guess assuming that that was newly looking for so. So maybe the girls were on the other path. One thing i've always wondered about here. Skip is there's actually two bridges right. There's one that goes over the indiana hoosier highway. What's at the freedom bridge freedom bridge bridges part of me wonders when he gets told by f. s. g. flannel short flannel shirt. Guy can do you have his name in front of you. I think he's been identified. I think we can just say his last name is mccain mccain. He was in charge of the the trail system there correct so he's involved with the parks and rec or something of that nature but so he speaks with mccain and mccain says i. I saw a couple arguing under the bridge. I think i think he actually said i heard a couple of the and i'm with you. It could mean one of two things. Either he goes okay. Well that's not the people. I'm looking for so i'll go this opposite way. Maybe he just assumed the bridge rather than the and hybrid. It's possible that mccain was coming from that from that direction so i think the assumption is that he had just been at the at the monan high bridge like. I said you know he he asked you about two young girls somebody describing couple they heard would not be the same description so so he. He said he said no. He hasn't seen them so it it. You know that part of it. I thinks fairly simple one this case. There's so much information. And i think there's some misinformation that's being put out by certain people and when you hear about this eyewitness mccain that talked with derek at the trail head and. He says that. I heard arguing couple. Roughly around two fifty to three o'clock to me. One of the things that people are missing is that would be roughly at the time that abby and libby are making contact with bridge guy and we don't have the full audiotape so we don't know and we don't know if those audiotapes have the evidence on there was their argument was there. Did one of the girls start arguing with bridge guy and if that is true then around three o'clock mccain did not hero arguing couple. He heard bridge guy arguing with abby. Libby yeah i think i think that's likely you're one of the biggest questions that people had in this case is. Why didn't anybody hear anything you know. Why didn't the girls scream. Wanted anybody hear anything while maybe they did you know maybe mccain her something and and but but nobody's put that together like you just said so so your personal interest. We know that he was there. He claims he was eyewitness. He claims he's the reason for the first sketch that was released. He also claims that he enters the same in parking lot that derek parked in roughly about three o'clock but then other times he has told sources and talked on the internet about being a part of the arguing couple which would put him at the crime scene at three clark correct. He also didn't come to law enforcement saying that he saw anybody a mentioned he was a witness to one of the witnesses to the first sketch until well after the Video had been put out at least a week. I think that kind of asked the question wanted if you saw. Somebody says he saw somebody dress. Like bg was with a scarf overs face. It'd be sauce if you saw somebody like that. Why didn't you come in. You know to a low girls. Were murdered that day. Why didn't you come forward. And you know. And and he later recanted that statement. Yeah i have a couple of problems with this person mattress one. You're at the park. Roughly around the time that this family is looking for two missing girls. There's witness that says he stayed to help So what kind of person are you. What kind of canoe are you. I think our listeners. Know what i'm getting at but on top of that you're still there's this you're claiming that the day these girls were murdered and he would have known that the next day that you are at the park the same day these girls were murdered and you saw a suspicious person. You're not coming forward to law enforcement for seventy eight days. Well he he originally said he was with his girlfriend. Okay changed that to a girl that end. He never mentioned her name. Just a told. Apparently one of the stories that was at Was the he was part of a cheating couple. So that was the reason for. Maybe a white was so ambiguous about who you know who he was. Wig was because he was saying that he you know he was trying to keep it on the down low. He was with another girl. And that's really interesting because this person of interest he's coming forward and saying look. I'm the. I'm the eyewitness. I saw bridge guy. I am the reason for the first sketch that is released. We now know that law enforcement is saying. Hey don't that's that's sketches secondary essentially saying well we don't buy this eye-witnesses account at one point saying well is at the parking lot roughly the same time. Derek was there now but he didn't see me and at some point i was. Yeah i was with their with my girlfriend Now we know that's not to be true so then he has to then go on and then tell people okay look. Wasn't there with my girlfriend. I was cheating on my girlfriend. And so therefore you know. But i i was covering for that. Which a lot of times eyewitnesses come forward and they lied to law enforcement and lie to the public because they were doing something bad. That necessarily doesn't make him a murderer. But my issue is. We don't know who he claims he was with under that bridge. A key phrase there under the bridge which by definition guys down the hill under the bridge. Anything under the bridge becomes a part of the crime scene. They found articles of clothing around the area under the bridge in the water. So we have this individual lying in in constantly changing story. But what does he do. He puts himself at that crime scene. And i don't believe anybody saw arguing couple. They just heard arguing couple. Arguing couple then equals bridge guy. Arguing with abby libby equals. That's the murderer. And he put himself in that position that location arguing with someday which we believe would be abby libby and that puts him at the crime scene that makes him bridge. Remember the filling got as a kid of gidding tucked into bed or the feeling that you get now and the arms of somebody love safe and secure. It's a feeling of security. That only comes their human connection. And that's why the people at simplisafe home security are so important of course simply safe as award winning system that has all the technologies bells and whistles that you can expect these days but the people at simplisafe really take it to the next level there round the clock anytime you need them. Whether it's a fire a burglary a medical emergency a. bursted pipe or even a problem while you're setting up the system. Simplisafe has a person with expertise. You need ready to help. Twenty four seven and when you know. There's always somebody there to help. Well that's a feeling that you just don't get with any old security system. We use simply safe not just here in the garage but also to protect our own homes. We went with simplisafe because the high quality equipment and great camera footage. How many cases have we covered where they have camera footage. But it's not good camera footage. That's why we recommend simplisafe safe to find out how simply safe can make you feel safe. Insecure at home visit simplisafe dot com slash garage today to customize your system and get a free security camera that's s. i. Mp l. i. s. a. f. e. dot com slash garage today check out simplisafe's dot com slash garage today to feel safe insecure at home. Today's sponsor includes universal pictures. Candy man filmmaker near dacosta directs a terrifying fresh take on the blood chilling. Urban legend candyman candyman is produced by oscar. winner jordan. Peele the legend of candyman is if you say his name five times in the mirror. He appears in the reflection and kills you. As chicago's cabrini-green neighborhood deals with being gentrified beyond recognition visual artist anthony mccoy played by in dual mateen. Unknowingly opens a door to a complex past exposing the horrific true story of candyman. Terrifying wave of violence is unleashed as anthony's own sanity unravels. Putting them on a collision course with destiny. Candyman stars ya ya. Abdul mateen tiana pairs nathan stewart jarrett and colman domingo on august twenty seventh. They dare you to say it. Candyman candyman candyman candyman candyman in theaters august. Twenty seventh canvas pro is the easy to use design platform. That has everything you need to design like pro. Look the colonel when it comes to designing. i'm a bit of a beginner. But can't appro is my superpower for design marketing print materials and beyond. And it's helping us grow the garage. Now that i have canvas pro. My content is next level whether you're a professional designer or just getting started canvas pro can help boost you and your team's productivity and creativity. It's a quick easy and affordable way to design. Whatever you need it no matter. What your creating sharing camera pro has everything you need. In one place including a collection of over seventy five million premium photos videos audio and graphics plus campo pro comes with time saving tools that simplify and speed up the creative process you get all of this and more in just one. Cama pro subscription campbell. Pro is a game changer for the garage and the way that we market our show to our listeners. Look whether you're involved in a start up your student. You're marketing team nonprofit an entrepreneur or just crafty mom your going to love cambe pro. It will help grow your business. And increase you and your team's productivity with a range of premium tools and content to help market your business to the world designed like a pro with cam appro right now you can get a free forty five days extended trial when you use my promo code. Just go to canada dot me slash garage to get your free. Forty five day extended trial. That's c. a. n. va dot m. e. slash garage canvas pro me slash garage. So we're back talking with skip janice about his person of interest and how this person of interest has claimed. He was eyewitness he saw. Bg hinson reason for the first sketch that was released and that he was there with his girlfriend then changed his story to that he was there with somebody. He was cheating on his girlfriend with shows. You the type of character. Individual is an top of that you just constantly keeps changing his story. He said he saw bridge guy leaving going toward freedom bridge around the same time that flannel shirt guy. Derek would've been talking so they had. They had been close to each other in proximity to each other at the time. He said he saw him leaving. There described him as like. I said with the closed at bg was wearing seen in the video and also with a scarf oversights again i can't get over the fact that if you're just a normal guy and maybe you don't wanna come forward right away because you're going to be caught cheating but you can tell law enforcement and they don't have to release that information to the public but you can tell your friends family and girlfriend. Hey by the way. I was there that day. A why were you. There was to a lunch. Break whatever reason you have to come up with tell your friends and family but you believe that you saw this individual and you're waiting seven days to come and talk to law enforcement. It just seems very suspicious. It seems very shady. Doesn't pass the sniff test if you will well. He said he ski. Came forward after the video had been released instead. That's the guy saw that day. So when exactly. Is this photo or video released. The after the crime they released a video. I think two or three days after the murders. The photo of the photo taken from yeah still photo was released a few days afterwards. It wasn't until two thousand nineteen press conference that we get the video right. Let's be clear about one thing. The younger sketch. The second sketch that was released in two thousand nineteen was actually created three or four days after the murders. That was actually the for the other. The the old bridge guy sketch was done was not released until july of two thousand seventeen so it was five months before the first sketch was released yet. They had the sketch the younger guy. Three or four days after the murders. So the second sketch that was released. They had pretty quickly but for some reason. This eyewitness comes forward. Seven or eight days after the murders gives his account and they go with his sketch. At least yeah awake lighter saying that. That was the guy he came after. The pictures of the photo was was shown on television. He said that's the guy saw again. I'm just curious why you wouldn't come if you saw a suspicious guy. They're close to where two girls were killed. Why wouldn't come forward immediately. Let's pretend the dp is bridge guy for a minute okay. He's coming forward now because he has an out that that sketch is his out right. He doesn't wanna come forward before like you were getting to that. Oh i don't want to come forward. 'cause they can identify me if i was there right. And so he he sees the sketch. It's not doesn't appear to be him to him. So dp comes forward. And says yep i i would like to second that. I saw that person. I was there that dan saw that person there as well i. Yeah he actually. He saw the video. He saw the video or the the photo. Not the diskette. I think he became aware of the sketch. A spoken with person. Friend of mine locally. Whose family as a brother. Who's law enforcement. That i think is is in a credible source and he told me that a lot of local people knew about this. There was a second sketch at didn't know what it looked like obviously earlier but they knew very early on that. There was a second sketch i think. I think the time had the timing works as he came after the second sketch had been created hadn't been released yet but the second sketch had been created. And that's when he came forward. The second sketch that was actually released is actually the first sketch that they created. Correct but how is law enforcement. Gidding that information for the second sketch that was released from the witness. A witness that saw something needed to be reported that day and skip. Correct me if i'm wrong. It's been my understanding that the second sketch released is based off of eyewitness statements description right and the first sketch that was released was based off of the still photo then later video evidence and it was all well. A lot of people believe that that law enforcement Take on that it was. It was created by multiple witnesses. Okay so both. The sketches or law enforcement says both of the sketches were were created the based on witness testimony. I agree with you though. I think that the first sketch was had the the photo and video had some influence on it. And you're person of interest which we're calling ep. I don't know if he has picked up on the fact that nicole the person of interest dp recall on him dp for legal reasons obviously and safety reasons for himself but he came forward and was tom people online. He was responsible for the first sketch that was released less. Correct yeah again. I think that's a little bit unusual that you know. Law enforcement usually insists that witnesses don't say anything he cases like this he certainly. I injected himself into the case by speaking of social media. Kinda getting story out there. But both of his story is put him with another person at the trails. That day right. So where's this other person right. I mean if i'm law enforcement. That's my first thing i'm going okay. Dp was there and in story a he's so and so and in story be he's with someone else who are these people and do they exist well again. I think the reason for the change of the story was that he was with another girl and didn't want that information getting out. I think that was the excuse to get to the second story. Which was the The cheating girl yeah. I think that that probably raise the red flag of some some source you know but he was. He was considered a witness. They thought that Law enforcement seek to witnesses. They know they need witnesses and the sky came forward voluntarily so they assumed he was said he in describes something that looked like what they were seeing on video so they had no reason not to believe him. Okay so this dp guys there and he's with this girl that he's cheating on his girlfriend with i mean that's pretty scumbag anyways. But we don't have this other girl that he was cheating on his girlfriend with coming forward and saying. Hey i was there with dp and the other thing about too is he saying he was arguing with this girl that he was with under the bridge again putting himself and putting whoever this girl he was with if there was even a girl there with him under the bridge again under the bridge. You have to understand that under the bridge or on the other side of the bridge is all part of the crime scene so he would be saying not only was cheating with this girl but she was over at the crime scene with me about the same time that the killer would have been making contact with abby and libby but yet yet they do see anything again. He wasn't seen by anybody except one person. A girl named cheyenne ingles. And she's the only one that has corroborated seeing him. Do we know where cheyenne says. She saw she never said what exactly where she saw him. She said that she her story album. Kind of frank here. I don't. I haven't found anything that she said to be truthful. Hugh originally said she got there at three fifty jiang's shorts to she got to fifty. She showed a picture of from the day says that she said she went there. To take picture shows a picture and taken around. Three o'clock of the bridge never said you know. She saw what time she saw him just that she saw a heterosexual couple and also ran into a friend of hers who she said she didn't know was going to be there. Well the biggest point about dp being a person of interest is he was at the park that day claims to be in the vicinity of the bridge has changed his story multiple times. Now you have cayenne. That is i win to dp being there. But she's constantly changing her story as well. It's very very suspicious. Therefore i think there are four people involved in involved in that equation i think. Dp cheyenne cheryl in a girl shelby. I think they that one of them has has something to do with a car that was parked at the cps building that law enforcement inquired about. Who is this shelby. She's a friend of all. They're all friends she was. I know she went to law enforcement to talk to tell them. Kinda straighten out the vehicle situation. Those a lot of confusion about where everybody part what town everybody got their. Whose cars were there. I think she went and told him that you know her yes. Her car was there Here's out there. I don't know i think again. Nobody saw her. Nobody saw ep. I don't have any reason to believe she was there a know. There's no there's nobody corroborating sword. She was there. I'm not sure she she ever said she was there. Yeah she she giant friends because they were married to what one was married to Two brothers was married in one was Had a child with the other brother so they they were friends that way but the cayenne ever everson when she saw cheryl she says she says that cheryl got that she shying says she got there about two fifty. She said that cheryl got there about two thirty. She didn't say exactly what point she ran into him ran into her. I'm sorry so other than so. We're going to exclude shelby. Because we don't believe that she was there. But other than shan and cheryl do we have anybody cheryl. Was there either right but do we have anybody at the park. Seen dp that day no nobody saw dp except cheyenne okay but nobody cheyenne. Nobody saw cheryl. nobody saw shelby. they all. they all were there at the park in in the same Timeframe that several people were there including f s g. But nobody saw any of them. I think again. I think the time the the time line and the vehicles are the critical part of the case. I think it's likely law enforcement knows or has a particular epeli person of interest. And i think that that was probably gathered from those two things. The timelines never made sense amongst standing of the witnesses are the people that were there and neither has the vehicle situation. So you're telling me that. Cheyenne says. I saw dp at the part but we don't know what time she's claiming she saw him. Is she saying that he was with somebody or alone. She was saying he was with somebody. That was part of the they were part of the heterosexual couple is as she described it but the person that she'd say in his with his personal acts. Yes that's what makes this person so interesting to me is because none of the stories lineup. None the stories make any sense. So if you're having a hard time following the story while don't blame me because their stories just told lineup but cheyenne also said that she saw. Dp's car which parking lot it was parked. I believe at the miers lot but there's another eyewitness that disputes this claim. Yeah there was an eyewitness that drove by around three o'clock and said that she only saw two cars. If all the people who were there say they were there are all the people say they were there. Actually were there than there will be a lot more than two cars. As we know ephesus gee was there. Impossibly park there There's was parked there. yeah Got their park there around this after three o'clock so it's not clear even were cheyenne parked right. Yeah it's an There's reason to question that if she was even there that day. Absolutely there's she as a matter of fact. She says she leaves at four o'clock and issues leaving she notices a man who she later finds are realizes is derek Sitting in the parking lot with another person in the in the card doing what looks like a drug deal well. Derek wasn't with anybody that day. Okay tara later came in cambridge. But she didn't arrive till four ten. So how how'd you cheyenne see. See anybody in the car. As a matter of fact when for interrogation she says. The derek jumped in the car with her. So how'd you cheyenne see. They're doing what looked like a drug deal at four o'clock. It's possible that her timeframe is off right but they did. She got he got in the other car. Should have done if. I dare because being derek or just some guy she said originally she changed later on to real when she realized it was derek. Or that's why she put it. She chased she said it was. Derek i mean come on people. How many times are you. Keep changing your story again. They again that just goes to part of the the stories. And how they changed understands people's recollection but a lot of this seems a lot more than that. Then just you know misinterpreting times and things like that. She the raise it yo she. She knew she got there because to fifty because she remembers a robo-call she got in she members leaving at four o'clock because she didn't have good enough cell service to upload the picture snapchat that she took and she did that about ten minutes before four so she knew her time for right or at least. She said she knew her times. We're right one. This is a small town. And i think some of this information was getting leaked or at least some rumors were happening. It sounds to me like chai. Iran is having one story in the months. She finds out while. No derek was in that area that time. Then she comes back and goes off. Just wasn't some man that i saw. It was derek again. We have a i witness. That is changing his story that puts himself at the scene of the crime. Roughly around the time of the murders doesn't come forward right away knows the girls I believe at some point. People said he was following. One of them on facebook possibly could have been following them on snapchat said that he wrote the bus with them that they lived. You know a couple of miles away. He knew the victims but again their stories keep changing. And how suspicious is that then. Cheyenne says that she sees. Dp's car at the other parking lot but seems like he would've been parted this cps building and waiting for the girls. I think it's possible. Yeah can i think. I think if you if you if you go by. What law enforcement says the car parked. Cps building possibly been there as early as twelve o'clock. i think It seems likely. I don't think. I don't think the twelve to five. I think there's just giving them some leeway but i think they know that He was probably there longer than what what he said. So dp is changing his story constantly. Cheyenne is changing her story. She is the only one that claims to see his car. There we have other credible eye witnesses. That don't see his car. So that's very suspicious. Why would you be driving somebody else's car to the park that day. Maybe because you don't want your car to be seen because maybe you're going to do something bad possibly again. That goes back to law enforcement saying in the two thousand nineteen press converse that they were looking for the driver of the vehicle that tells that tells me it's likely that it was Whoever they were whoever they're trying to find information was driving a vehicle. That wasn't his a bar of the but we also believe that there was i witnessed. I would've saw the driver of that vehicle. Yeah i think. I think that Yeah obviously there was. There was a witness that saw there was a witness. Saw somebody that that says that ends up being the second sketch I think this possibility that that's the same person who saw the car As as bg was exiting apart now even though sketch one and sketch to their they're worlds apart but there are some similarities. But you're person of interest dp matches both of these which is very concerning and the second sketch that was released of the younger individual he matches. He matches that sketch more than any other person of interest. I've seen match sketch now. Hopefully that gets out to the internet and people can make their own predictions and own assumptions on that. Well let me ask you this. If like we mentioned are a lot of locals knew there was a second sketch early on. If you'd kill some to people you had gotten You'd gotten wind that there was. There was a sketch out there. You obviously this. Is this point on that sketch. Being done three or four days later because he didn't come forward after that you know what i'm saying is if you killed and you found out law enforcement didn't just have this photo that they released but they also have a sketch. Yeah exactly yeah. You would think you'd been saying right. I mean you you you know so. That's certainly an incentive. Become forward to explain your words. Find your whereabouts and why you were there that day. You waited a week to come forward or at least a week while you know why. Why did you do that first. Of all and secondly is that is that the that the reason you law enforcement has has thought that this person is following the case in in getting information you want to know what we know and so i think it's likely that somebody was sharing information with him or he had access to that and that's why he came forward. One you also after you're doing your research and you're looking into dp you notice that a lot of the comments that the police officers are making law enforcement is making about their suspect or when they talk into the killer that it really applies to the research in the misinformation that they got from these. I witnesses early on they talk about. We believe that we were lied to early on or that. We didn't identify this person correctly. And so to have the confidence that he had to go into law enforcement and say hey loci was there is a i witness. I saw bg. And i think the small town of component comes in here because they believed him because they said well look at him look and his family and look at what they've done in the community. This is a kid that we can trust. And i think they bought whatever story he was selling. Initially we wanna hear from you. Check out the blog at true crime. Garage dot com so much more to get to in the next episode. Please join us until be good. Be kind and don't let it

delphi Homestore monan high bridge derek abigail williams carroll county mccain ashley libby abby libby Ashley homestore ashley home store costa jennifer ravina Beer ron delphi news brad open heim delphi fire department anna williams