1 Episode results for "Deborah Hussy"
Casey Sherman, author of Hunting Whitey: The Inside Story of the Capture & Killing of America's Most Wanted Crime Boss
"I it's a special edition of Galahad but guest a weekend edition I got tucked to author Casey Sherman about his new book hunting Whitey. It's a story of the final days of the capture, and the the killing of what he bolger and it's excellent. I do not have just any old author on I try not to. Read the book, and if I like it I, wanted him on, and I read this book and I really liked it, and I finished it last night, and I called up Casey and We hooked up today, and I got I got all the answers. They got lots of questions. In case he gave all the answers. It's good in this day of. true crime stories to crime podcasts I feel like this is kind of a true crime podcast. This is a casey. Sherman the author of hunting Whitey everything you need to know about the capture and killing of Whitey Bolger. Is the Gerry Callahan podcast. joining us on the. Front Casey Sherman Author Casey Sherman author of All kinds of books, so kinds of good nonfiction books beginning I believe with the story of your aunt who was murdered by the Boston Strangler. Almost twenty years ago now that the book came out, so this is my thirteenth book and Your Magin that Jerry Wow thirteenth I can't I can't I can't imagine it because it looks like a lot of work, man a work and what a fun to. The fun part, but you gotta done, and I have to say. Mean I've read most of your books and looking at the list of certainly you know we all know about Boston strong, which was a better book than movie. The story and I agree. With that. I don't remember Superhero in the book in the move. You had a superhero in Mark Wahlberg but I. Guess that's what it took to get done. And the finest hours and excellent Book Anna very good movie the. Twelve, the inside story of Tom Brady's fight for redemption. Dating now. Out in September, so we've we've got some early Tuesday stories to share. In the season. Comes about this with the latest hunting Whitey the inside story, a of the capture and killing of America's most wanted crime boss, which you did with co-authored with gave wedge former, Herald, reporter and I have to central Jesus last night I just finished it a slow reader you got to you know month ago. It took me a while, but it is excellent. It is an excellent read and I have to give credit because. I have this skepticism going into this when I get the Belco when I read about heard about you working on this book? Day Wedge I had my doubts, and it's the same thing with the with the Brady book or with Boston. Strong I wonder if you can tell me anything I don't know I. Really Want I follow. The news closely read a bunch of books about Whitey. Bulger's in Boston crime. My friend Howie Carr is. Is The authority on this. And I read all his books and I'm thinking I don't case. He's a good reporter and wedge is a good report, but I'm not sure they'll be able to advance the story. I do you have that same kind of skepticism going in assure I mean it's one of the reasons why we didn't jump in and right. Awadhi Bolger Book because we didn't want to go over anybody else's material whether it's Howie or Shelley Murphy. We were kind of backing off of the Wadi Bulges story until we got murdered in two thousand eighteen, and then we each other, we said well, what about the years that he was on the Rock, and what happened to him in prison? What was life like then so once? We got our heads around that. That's the avenue we hope to take the readers of and I know you. Do you do a lot of work of interviews? A lot of digging and you did. Not only. Did you tell me things I didn't know which. Kept me interested throughout the book the You save the best for less and say this that. This is worth a book on its own. I mean you get into the life on the run, which is good his whole life with Katherine. Greg and Santa Monica all the places he went before he hit out in Santa Monica the capture. Excellent, but then you get his life back in prison, and his ultimate demise, which is gory, and it's almost reads like a novel I. Know How it's GonNa end I know he's going get murdered. But you tell the story that it felt like I was reading about. John Wilkes booth or Lee Harvey Oswald were you don't know that much. You say normal I. Know about the guy who got murdered, but I don't know that much, too, but the murderer and you introduce us to Freddie Gee, how do you say last night? He's ready. Jesus or the soft cheese. Freddie Jesus which. As you know as an author reporter when you can bring people introduce people to a new character kind of evil. Not puree volleys, family guy, but he's a mob guy and he's a hit managed killer, and you get to meet Freddie gifts. Jesus and that you must have felt like this. Is something new this worthy of a book? Yeah, you know when we first got access to Freddie. Jesus daughter Taylor in how she introduced herself to us, and we started to interview her over time to get a little bit about. About Freddie's background in Springfield Massachusetts and then suddenly Freddie is writing US letters from solitary confinement at Misery Mountain. That's the place where he murdered. Whitey, Bulger in his writing us in rubber, tipped pencils because the guards give them anything sharp because they're afraid, he'll jab himself in the neck or kill a guard. Mean that's how close we got through the to the real source avoidable just murdering this book. And a obviously, it's lamb and we knew we kind of go to the store they beat him with. A sock full of coins is that correct? There was a it was a padlock in a sock and there was. A lot of rumors that came out right after the murder that he'd been castrated. That has is Zora gouged out. None of that is true but he was beaten so badly over the. Is that anybody that was looking into his cell from a distance what would have believed that his eyes had been taken how but he? He got what he deserved it ultimately at the end of the day. You know it's it's it's. One of the FBI agents that we follow in the book. Charlie Jian Turco, who carried that first leg in the relay race defined what he bulge. You're you know when I? When we discussed bulger's murder, he said you know what you live by the sword, and then you die by the sword, and then he says no screw that makes ball just seeing valiant. Was a slog. Here's a killer of women in got what he deserved that that is true, and that's one thing that stays consistent, and in not just in your book and every book every story about him I mean the the Robin Hood Myth died years ago. Although, you do revisit it with a priceless. Mike Barnicle extra article. Absolutely I highlighted that and laughed out loud. A Barnacle said he ripped off the lottery lottery on the lottery Barnacle, said he probably donate to the church. God wanted a Baris- meant. That is seen it in print again. Just remind you of what a fraud he was. And what a joke! The Globe is a, but there is a feeling throughout your book and every I mean we forget sometimes but Whitey Bolger was pure evil, even in the end even attitude in court I mean he just was a real sinister, dark human being until the end correct them. Until the end, but you know it's funny. You know we. We really followed what he bald. You're on his line and winter phase of his life, so his body's breaking down, but he still believes that could take anybody out in any any room yet. You know we get to a place where he's in prison, inmates in the yard, trying to steal the sneakers because they think he's just some old feeble clown in a in a wheelchair, but he but he's a he's an ordinary bastard as as a prisoner getting in arguments with prison nurse, saying that her day of reckoning is coming, which ultimately led? The prison warden in Florida the second prison that he was in to upgrade is health status ship them over to misery mountain, or he didn't last twelve hours, and misery moans in Hazelton, West. Virginia's Altun West Virginia the. Worst. You literally say that the warden through them to the wolves. Do you think it was by design? Do you think someone somewhere said this scumbag killed at least nineteen people, probably many many more killed women in a rip their teeth out. He was a pedophile. He was just the worst of the worst you think. A decision was made at some level I, mean you don't say this explicitly, but. You leave, leave US wonder leave. The Rita's wondering if somebody said, let's pro him to the wolves. Let's let let's let street justice or prison justice take its. Take over here. I mean that that would be a great Hollywood. Ending to the story, but honestly I think and Dave Wedge Moscow author. We think it was a happy accident that the warden in Florida was was very close. Friends Wink, wink, nod, nod with the prison nurse and once Bulger's starts to threaten this woman. He's like you're out of here and I'm GonNa send you to the worst. The employee's also. He didn't even care I don't believe. There's no evidence that we found. That would back up a theory that this was a decision made on high. Send Bolger to. To Hazelton. However you know that investigation is still ongoing, but you know we talk to guards that were in inside with Freddie Ge with Whitey Bolger and they didn't feel like it was A. Conspiracy at at a high level here you know Freddie Jesus. It just so happened. He served time with Freddie. White braintree gangster who is set up for murder that he didn't commit Whitey. Bulger put that guy in prison for thirty years, so Freddie Jesus had heard all these stories about what a scumbag wide bolger was from freeway shall and sure enough here comes Whitey. Bulger, who's in his same prison, served up on on a you know a silver platter, and Jesus is that old school gangster and he's he's a guy that. That he's an honorable killer, if if there ever was one, and he just wanted to exact some type of retribution on behalf of one of his good friends, yeah, you, you point to as where you is. What you guys did so well as it introduces us to a gangster and you do it, you know completely thoroughly. Tell us all about his family. His background is record how you know how he went from. Everyone goes bad at some point when they become gangsters and I. Know I'm not alone I know. People love this. People love when they read a book. Gangsters in the hear the whole story of where how they evolve into this monster. Who was you know? Become a contract killer or become a a lifer in prison now bashing people with with socks with padlocks in. And historic was great, but he's. He's the feeling I got at the end that that I loved. Is that Bolger for most of you know my life? Yours got away with everything. Right got away with everything he even even when they were closing in even when they had the case made, and he was going to prison, like like Fleming and everyone else, he got tipped off. He got away. He was a fugitive for how long sixteen? Years Living on the ocean and California may not the greatest flight, but he was free until his golden years. But when it all said and done, he paid a higher price than many of his cohorts I mean got away with everything he he'd kill them, but in the end he's in prison and they're stealing his sneakers because he's in a wheelchair and they're abusing him hell. He got busted in prison for masturbated. And it was humiliating he had to like defend themselves and say no I can't even do that anymore. I'm too old and I'm saying. This in a way is justice. I mean this guy. He can handle prison. He's been Alcatraz. He can certainly handle. Himself in the prison yard when he was younger, but he can't handle this being sent to totalitarian confinement for masturbating. His honor and dig. Away along with his life and what we learn when he first is convicted of the nineteen murders when he gets shipped to Arizona there's an attempt on his life there. He gets stabbed in the skull, and almost almost kilt, and he strikes up a friendship with a one of the inmates there that we interviewed for the book and now one of the great things about this book in the Access we got is you're hearing really from Whitey Bolger from the grave seventy letters that that he wrote. wrote his own hand that a lot of that information we put in the book. Are you really hearing from Whitey Bulger for the first time? And he tells this fellow prisoner, you know. He thought he was going to get prison, but when they give it to me I hope they give it to me. Quick because I gave it quick. Well I wouldn't call two minutes a lifetime, but two minutes of being beat over the head and shoulders with a padlock in a sock. Bulger didn't even get. Get Out of his bunk. Bolger didn't even have breakfast that next morning. He got beat to death. But you point out that he was looking like like so many people had looked in his eyes before absolutely me, which is great, you know I mean you think about Debbie Davis and Deborah Hussy, and some of these so-called innocent victims of Bulger's reign of terror. In what what were what were their last? You know was going through their mind when Balder was closing in on them I, hope he. He felt the same terror and fear that they did well I'm glad to hear you say that it is disturbing like in every book of read about him in the gang is how others like in Amman Toronto on around twelve years. I believe for twenty murders twelve years for twenty murders per for twenty more Bannon, and it's just that's just disgusting. It's nauseating and death fascinating. It also pissed off. Bulging bulbous was so angry that you know Martorana the tip of the spear had gotten twelve years. Here he was about to get life in prison, and he was more disgusted about all the prison time Catherine. Greg was was about to say right. There is a weird love story between Katherine in Whitey that is toll throughout the book from Bulgur, and through these letters buzzer was certainly somebody that hated women, but at the end of his. Fugitive life. You really leaned on Catherine Brig. who could have escaped at any time? but Catherine had always wanted to be the main squeeze so to speak in these life beyond Theresa Stanley as common law wife. First woman he went on the run winds in here. She is finally. She gets this guy on on her own and then. Scott Gary all of the special agent from the FBI just lures bald. You're out of that apartment on that day in nine years ago this month. It's great that you you guys did a great job of capturing that the whole process, the painstaking process of moving on him, and luring him out of the apartment, which was just full of guns, loaded guns, and they lowered him out, and they nabbed them in the garage to take a Nina. Pull oil and take him in Caffeine Greg is his girlfriend was on the with a multi. She never taught correct. She was senior talk. Through her lawyer Kevin Ryton to try to get her to talk, and and she just she talk and I don't think she'll ever tell her tail. She's that classic gangster. Mall will always stick by her man. One way or the other, but the FBI agents. Investigate, or interviewed rather for the the, but it's a coupon. Keep an eye on her. For the next couple of years in anybody that was close to Whitey bulger because what he bolger took off with about thirty million bucks, and they were only able to fine less than a million, so their safety deposits out there somewhere with that. Catherine Greg potentially knows where they are and also. In a halfway house across, you know, she lives with a Whitey bulger's nephew. Billy Mater Sung. Speaking knowing where the thirty million as you guys had some exclusive interviews including I, think the one with Billie Bolger Whitey's contemptible, loathesome brother, who helped Whitey when he was on the run paid no price. He's still collecting A. Two hundred, million, two, hundred, thousand plus per year pension I'm he's just a vile human being in my opinion, but you got to sit down with them. Does he feel any guilt at all helping? Whitey the serial killer row now. We've ever since that. He didn't really feel any remorse you know gave. Conducted that interview with building just knocked on his. In one day billy opened it now, billy never open this door so the FBI agents that were knocking on the door regularly throughout the entire manhood, but allow Dave in a they spoke for over an hour all on the record, and billy felt I guess he wanted to tell his version of growing up with Bolger Bulger, but you know we. Juxtaposed Billy's interview in the book with the FBI agents. Let's say he should be in a in a prison cell along with his brother. They have no. Can you know? Contempt for this guy. There's no. There's no question I mean it's. It's disgusting a think he's. Obviously the president of the Senate, and then ahead of U. Mass, join this huge public chick and living in south by the way where his brother you know, had this reign of terror for decades there he surrounded by people's lives were ruined, whose family members died of drug overdoses or were murdered. By bulger's gang, any feels no remorse, and in fact, at least in one occasion you know, took a secret phone call from from Whitey in an effort and obvious effort to allow his brother to remain free it I know. That was the one occasion that the FBI. Knew about what they didn't know. About was other instances where Whitey bulger would buy a car for cash and drive from Santa. Monica California all the way to the mid West. To Detroit Michigan to call his brother, and he would speak to bill, and this is. This is what Whitey Bolger had told. Inmate? Best friend while he was imprisoned that they had almost near regular contact with each other Catherine Greg was certainly calling her sister Margaret, mccusker almost on a on a regular interval and from Greg. When he when she left with Whitey she left her two poodles behind, and there's a weird relationship between Catherine and her sister Barbara, because Margaret had the two poodles euthanized. Didn't show bottom. You can imagine what that was like that first conversation they had A. Killing the killing everything for. Whatever dogs but I I? Certainly. Don't make the Bolger. Family seem sympathetic. visiting the prison there visiting there were in the court is brother Jackie and other disgraced former hack. There now or maybe they're not. They had one point sued for two hundred million. because. Why did you get killed in? Prison is still pending. That's still pending hang, Brennan, who was co counsel for Whitey, Bolger in the criminal case. He's representing the family in that case, so we'll see where that goes, but again you imagine the family, the gall of the bulger family to sue the federal, Bureau of Prisons for two hundred million dollars. For Whitey, bulger's murder. If they get it all, that money should go directly to Bulger's victims. It's true I mean you're talking about a guy who killed at least nineteen, probably many many more he he was eighty, nine eighty nine years old, eighty nine. That's way too old way too old I mean if he should have met is is in decades earlier. They're lucky he's lucky. He lasted as long as he did I mean do do the people. People in the FBI you talked to lots of including by the way Andrew McCabe. Yes, about that to they did. They feel silly like they've thought initially was obviously gone before nine eleven could have gone anywhere in the world after that he was in Louisiana. He traveled a lot, but there he wasn't a pretty open place. You know hiding in plain sight in Santa Monica there been a sighting of him in San Diego in a movie theater. Feel like they were they didn't. They missed something in that each state on the Lam for so long. Yeah, I do feel that way I think you know when we cover all the misfires as well and you look at it as a kind of a relay race. You know a few FBI. Agents took the case early. You know made some real grievous mistakes. That allowed Bulger to slip through the news in here. He is living point eight miles from the San Santa Monica, police department Dave and I were the only. Journalists access inside of Bulger's apartment, which was a real weird feeling long gone, but the ghost of Bolger seemed to be still there, but with the st where the gun I mean. We knew we cut the wall and put the Guy Absolutely. Plastered over, but they didn't do a very good job. Remodeling the inside in Bolger. Slept in the in the back bedroom days, Catherine and wine. You never shared a bedroom together because bolger would wake up at night, screaming because of all of these LSD experiments that he had participated in. The. Young woman whose teeth he ripped up because no, no, no, because correct but. It is you know there? There is something to say about turning a criminal into a kind of a super villain you know and I and I do think that the M. K. Ultra program certainly must have played a role in that audience upward two thousand LSD hits without your mind being altered in some crazy way, it just obviously made Bolger. You know the real, a homicide killer that eventually game right I. mean the the life on the Lam. At least in Santa Monica was pretty uneventful. You would say that there wasn't may maybe that's why he remained free. Because do so careful and he didn't do much, and they didn't They were very under the radar. He was very careful. Careful and I think the only time that I think. There was a threat on his life when he was walking with Catherine. Beyond the Santa Monica Pier One night when they were almost. A stuck up for money or a you know a robber with a nice, but bolger was strapped everywhere. He went showed. The Guy has gone in. The Guy ran away and Bolger I love the fact that he's a huge fan of Hollywood, so he recites these great wines from gangs. and. Bulger allegedly said to this guy. You never bring a knife to a gunfight. You can hear Sean Connery saying that same line in the touchable. Bolger didn't have A. An original thought in his head, the the story of how they got him. Obviously you go into it extensively in very good detail, but. Basically comes to this. The FBI took out a TV commercial. Would you say that led to the yeah well I mean what happened. WAS THEY I love the fact that Bulger was an you know. He had hatred toward women treated. You know Catherine like Dart and killed at least two women that we know of so here comes a female FBI. Agent named Noreen gleason and she's looking around the Boston FBI, agent seeing people kind of down in the. The dumps and they've lost their wilted to go on, and she says we're not going to get done with this crew. I need to bring in some heavy hitters fugitive hunters from around the country and we've been looking for the wrong person. We've been looking for ten years for Whitey Bulger. We need to start looking for Catherine Greg and if we signed her. We're going to find him so, but they had those old grainy surveillance photographs of Catherine Greg. The. Tipster let them know that Katherine. Greg head numerous cosmetic surgeries, boob job, Rhino Plastic. You name it. She had it so then. They started to really canvas all of these. Plastic surgery operations around the Boston area and finally found. Her surgical practice and that practice had these full close up photographs of Catherine Grey, so they created their own public service announcement for the very first time in the FBI history that they done this and they wanted the American public. Do believe that Catherine was in fear for her life. You know on the run with this chiller women, so they put together a commercial they. They aired it in markets all around the country that they could afford that. That they believe why. We might be hiding out in the one market they couldn't advertise in was La because they couldn't afford. But it was such an anomaly for the FBI to create its own ad that it became a news story unto itself so CNN picked it up the BBC picked it up and all of a sudden. There's a woman in Um Iceland who was a former neighbor of Charlie and Carol Gasco their aliases and she leaves three. Messages on the FBI's a voicemail via email and another form saying not only do I know where they are. I know who they are, and that's ultimately what led the FBI divulge her? Did she get the two million? She did get the two million and a great part in the book where Scott Areola, he's an FBI agent out in La a brilliant fugitive under he's on vacation with his kids, and he gets a buzz on on his cell phone, a text saying bulge assiting Santa Monica. Give us a call back. He looks at his phony almost deletes it or says this is somebody I'm on. Vacation was like what the? The Hell I'll I'll see what this is, so they revealed that it's a tipster in Iceland. And Belgium says well who took the tip and it was a US marshal that adjoined the bulge task force that eventually talked to this tipster in Iceland and Gary. All goes well I. Don't really like US marshals. I WanNa talk to her myself, so she gets. He gets on the phone with her in dialogue, and he says how you know. How much do you believe that this is why you your Caffeine Greg that we're looking for? And she goes well. I'm not one hundred percent shore. It's that I'm two hundred percent sure right. She was relentless and she deserves the money, and then they got gary. Gut Department manager the manager of the apartment building to help by telling him that he could get the were award Greg. Fifty grand, the fifty grand for Greg was still available, so he said I'll. I'll do that, so they set up a ruse where they told them the locker, his locker in the garage had been broken into, and they broke the lock and made it look like someone had broken it, and they told billy at Whitey. Asked. Why come on down check it out? Because someone broken, it was locker Whitey was very paranoid and cautious, but he's still went down the elevator by himself, and as he's walking to his locker, they nabbed him. They nab him in for the first time. Bolger actually. Chronicles that event himself in his letter. We have a letter from Whitey Bolger where he describes his own arrest in a second that he got down to to the garage, he knew something was up and he almost You know. He was afraid that the FBI was gonNA take them out at that at that very moment. because. He refused to kneel in a bottle of oil. They sell the oil correct. He said you could shoot me, but I'm not kneeling down in oil. And then. A neighbor stumbles upon this whole scene, and she's been told for years that Charlie gas goes got Alzheimer's. So this Alzheimer's patient surrounded by the FBI and she starts yelling at the FBI so spot, Gary. All the agent is thinking Oh my God. Did we get the wrong guy and Bulge chirps? You know I'm James Leaping. Bolger in! She's Ethin- craze. Don't listen to her. You've got the right guy and not. Why did James Jimmy Bulging Chat? Show some respect and call them Jimmy. Did the apartment manager get the fifty grand for Catherine Greg I don't know. Gary All. He was kind of you know he was. He was spitballing at the time he had to make. This arrest happened I'm not sure this kid got a red cent. How strange was it? Did, it or you did it sitting down with Andrew McCabe while it was, it was it was unusual. You know I. I did the interview with with Andrew, but you know there was a big. This, obviously well, the whole trump thing was going on and I actually met him on the Cape while he was there for an event and we you know we really didn't get into the trump issues. stuffy was dealing with. I wanted to really focus solely on what bulger's arrest meant to the bureau, and obviously it had a rippling effect throughout. The entire euro, but just just because it lifted the stain of corruption at least on the Boston office. It is the most maddening thing in every bolger story I. Read Every Book. Just like when Donahue and Bucky Barrett could taken out. do I. Have that Right Barrett. Barrett was going to flip. He was going to testify. The FBI tells bolger indirectly and they kill him, and it's then that was repeated over and over like anyone. That was even a hint of like Deborah of Deborah Hussy. Would? They were afraid she would talk killer. That's how we handle everything just potential that someone might rat on him. Meanwhile, he's reading on everybody and you're saying. Can you imagine thinking if I go to the FBI I'll be safe ago the FBI tell them you know whatever runaway go in I'll be safe. You go to the FBI and signing your death warrant. It she's not corruption. You think of corruption guys taking payoffs. That's one thing they took. Payoffs God knows from vulgar and Flamy, but setting up people who are trying to do the right thing is the most maddening part of the whole Bolger story in my opinion, oh. That's why you know in my opinion. John Connolly is serving life imprisonment Florida. It's not enough I mean. He should have been given the death penalty for for what he did I think of him though, and he's every day waking up in a Florida prison. I'm not sure if they got air conditioning, but he is I, it's he's not. He's not doing well. put it out a long road to hoe for him and I. Think about that every day to you know and it's interesting because again the FBI agents that we. Interviewed for the book, they were basically hunting bigfoot about know in the mid two thousands, and they were thinking. You know we don't know who is Baltimore is never met John Ethnic Conley yet every every case we are involved in that gets thrown in our faces every day, so we're going to go and find this bastard once and for all, and ultimately that's what they do. You I got a bone to pick with the you call. Whitey a trump supporter, but don't provide any evidence I'm not saying he wasn't just asking. Where's the proof? Okay well. That was interviews that we've conducted with one of his. With his neighbors and one of his neighbors did tell us he was a firm supporter, so we do have that on record. Wedge of my Very Liberal Co author. Trump. Pay. Doctor that that interview so I think he kinda slip that in there. So you know. Think of it what you will you mentioned? The unfinished memoirs of of of Bolger are out there somewhere. Will we ever see them I'm sure you find? You tried to get a hold of them and you probably should. And we think that a family member may have them right now, but again. What is it going to reveal? We feel like we're we've already published bulges memoirs because you know. They're in seventy letters that that he had written and Bolger. Always glorified is on accents, which is one of the reasons why he would not meet with Johnny Depp when Johnny Depp was making black mass. We've got a information the book where Bolger's describing. The of the filmmakers for blackness, constantly reaching out to Jay Carney his attorney, trying to get a sip out, but though the version of ball during black now so obviously was he is Irap. He is a government informant and bulging never wanted to see himself that way. He wanted to see himself. As you know, I wasn't getting in forgiving. Information I was getting information, so if the manuscripts out there, it is going to be that Robin Hood bullshits. He's been selling for decades. BARNICLE CO author the story when Emmy still around it is amazing when you go through the trial, and you have some great detail about the trial and him swearing in his outbursts in court, but everybody in the end turns on them, I mean weeks Martorana everybody turns on them he in the end. The portrait, the depiction from Barnacle, and the globe from others, and from his family members like billy. Is such bullshit. He's he's just. The is a rat. He's an he's an. A just a terrible human being treated everyone like dirt, and you could tell the that nobody felt any sympathy. Nobody had any interest in protecting them at all at all besides his family. You know and that. Will Not as he is, but they're. They're a bunch of rotten people anyway, but sure. But, but I will say that. That's one of the reasons why we wanted to write. This book is because you know. Here's a gang that doesn't get the opportunity to write off into the sunset or in his mind. He was telling the FBI investigators on the long flight from. La Boston that if he'd note knew he had a terminal disease, he was going to throw his body down A. Deserted mine shaft in Nevada just to keep that mystery going for as long as he possibly could, he didn't get that opportunity. He got beaten to death in prison. Everybody turned against him and he you know He. He got what he deserved that ultimately. Do you think there's? Two questions do think we'll ever. They'll ever recover the thirty million or any of it, and do you think the stories over now? Do you think you guys have written the final chapter? Well I? Think we're going to have to see what happens with the investigation to the US Bureau of Prisons. Think that'll happen before the money ever recovered, but you gave, and I will continue to kind of dig at the story and hopefully provide some updated information. Comes out in the paperback. I don't think any of the money is going to be recovered anytime soon. I think whoever knows where those safety deposit boxes are. They're gonNA sit on it for a while and then when the coast is clear. Maybe they'll go. Try to find it. You know other than Catherine Greg. Who could that be Jackie Bolger. Who Do you think has I mean I mean I I'm only speculating air. It would have to be Jackie or billy. Those are the only two that he really confided and I would say he can find it in billy more than he confided in. Brother Sharp Jackie? And Billy. At least Jackie paid a price. At least he got it at once. Billy Bill. Is GonNa, go to his grave, and they'll probably live forever. The the people like him. People rotten to the core like him seem to last a while We'll see you know. His wife just passed away about two weeks ago. Mary, so we'll, we'll see what happens to billy next. but you know he'll take the secrets to his grave. He's just like white. Why that was an interesting? Anecdote that he wanted to throw his body down a mine shaft, so no one would ever find him, and we would all wonder you know. He's still alive like. would be wondering for decades of be still alive at a couple of things before I let you go Casey Sherman I I wanna read. The there's some funny parts of this this obviously some colorful characters, but this I actually made a note. The funniest part of the book here is Is Mike Barnicle in the Boston Globe by Illinois? Let's face it. I'M NOT GONNA pass up to bash the globe, and this was their lead columnist after Whitey scammed his way into a lottery, Jackpot. We're not sure how he did it. He threatened somebody. You got a hold of a winning lottery ticket and the Michael writes layoff Jimmy Belcher calls them Jimmy. We only family members, and you know subordinates in the mob called. Called Jimmy, but not bark bark has no shame. He says for the first time in his life Bulge got lucky legitimately, and won the lottery knowing him, he probably already handed out money to saint. Augustine's figure that when he goes, and the odds are better than winning mass millions there will be some people left behind. It will say not a bad guy, not a bad guy. He's not a bad guy. Can you believe that? Later Dan Kennedy that fraud journalists. Journalism professor from north? Yeah, he. He called it satire. That was just Mike Barnacles. Use of satire in a ball, just kidding. About two frauds. But that's that's what you got from the Boston. Globe one of the reasons why I think the you know the crime spree, the the the reign of terror last as long as it did. Obviously, the FBI was instrumental. Is Brother Billy protected him? We know all those, but so does the globe. He had a great pr firm which the Boston Globe. At the time. You know we'll mcdonagh. Another we'll be who was close friends with. Bulge, so you know to them? He was James Cagney and Robin. Hood wrapped up in. You know together disgusting. I, think back. It's disgusting I mean I. Know People like you and me and how we kind of were ahead of the curve on this, but there was a time when people in a mainstream newspaper. was spending a guy who was ripping the t killing young. How old was Deborah? Davis when she to. Twenty two year, old woman, killing a rip, not torturing or killing riveter teeth out and burying her body in a shallow grave. That guy was not a bad guy. Of Boston Globe that is disgusting. I before I. Let you I one other question just for my own. I'm wondering I have a weird thing going on now. Where some days I can read I could focus and other days. I can't take my eyes off the TV or the computer. Because you know, let's be honest. The whole is on fire right now. We're GONNA apocalypse and I was wondering when you first sent me this book and told me about it. I said I couldn't decide whether it was a really good time. Bad time out of work. Because people have time, but their minds are you know occupied with the the you know the downfall of Western civilization I. My answer to that and I'll get yours would be. The pandemic is one thing I read during the pandemic, but when you combine it with the insurrection, it was hard for me to focus on anything other than the you know the the the apocalypse. Well, publisher made a calculated decision to release it during the pandemic. Because that's what we thought the only thing we thought we would be dealing with is people with a lot of time on their hands that were starving for content, and then the world gets turned upside down. By I mean every week. It seems to be a new sign of the pockets, so know fortunately for us. The book sales have been doing great, but this bookstores you know many of them aren't even still open yet. Read suffer us because we can't go in sign books like we normally would at the Barnes and nobles. They don't even have enough stock. For us to go in and make it worthwhile, so we hope that people continue to define the book in we'RE GONNA turn the book into a limited series because we feel like there's enough information in storyline there to spread this story out over eight hours as opposed to ninety minutes in a black mass or a departed. If you will I think again, it's just I mean if you think you know it all about vulture and lots of people like around at least around New England, think they. They, do you're wrong? Because you guys did a great job of UH, of of describing and telling the whole story of his demise whether it, you know the capture than the predominant prison, then the trial and the best part is the murder because you get to meet all kinds of new wiseguys, one little funny moment in the book that I just remembered as Bolger sends a letter to chip Janice is a prison buddy and he says bogus. Say hello to all my friends for me. He has no friends. Say. Who Me? In the end of this guy's got no friends and no family. You know he's. He had one kid who died. I guess he sort of had a girlfriend or had another common law wife, but they were probably more fearful of than anything and we'll. We'll friends the guys. He spent his life with turned on him so. Other than his disgusting loathsome family really had nobody, which is how you should how it should work when you're evil like he was, he died along died and pain S. yes, he looking up at a guy, was bashing his skull in with a sock full of with a padlock. Lock each side. It But I before I let you go I I'm always curious what you're going to work on next because you guys come up with some good ideas and. even if the story's been done before, you can take it to another level. Hey, homeowners! Did you know that my brother-in-law Greg has a huge selection of pre cast concrete steps whether you're building a new home or you need to replace an old stash? It has great values designs for any home, available in concrete or customized with beautiful stone, granite and brick a new staircase. Can dramatically upgrade the front entrance of your home. In most cases they can remove your old stairs and have you walking up your new front steps within hours? SHAPE provides lunch and learns get lunch, and you get to learn from engineers and contractors and one of their plants or at their office. Shea Manufacturers of variety of pre cast concrete products. Make sure you contact them. Contact Greg as for Greg. For any of your pre cast, concrete product knees in contact them at shake concrete dot com. You answer me I have a suggestion for. Free next book, it would be nonfiction I promise you. It'd be a huge bestseller. It would be topical and I would I for one with thoroughly enjoyed his my suggestion unauthorized biography of Alan Dershowitz. I would love to, and you know I've been going back and forth with a piece of. you know. I wrote about him in the Herald and he rebutted me in the herald the and I. Trust me, he is, he's on the list. I would love to tear him down. You know in, you know. He's carrying himself down every day, but. This guy is one of the most vile human beings in opinion. That's ever walked the earth. I will give you credit because there's a reason. Not More people do not criticize like you do and you know the reason. He is the most litigious human being on Earth Hell. He just wrote a book defending himself against the charges from one of Jeffrey. Epstein's Harum and I. You know I- Dershowitz claimed that he went to Epstein's mansion for a massage. A House a House that's full of pictures of naked young girls in the walls, and he just went there for you know a therapeutic massage that story falls apart quickly, but I would say Casey. You would have a lot of material. Probably be able to find a lot of people to interview and he would sue the hell out of you know no matter what could be all one hundred percent right, but he would say and you know if you're in the right, it would only help I mean the guy wouldn't be able to help himself he would. Would help you promote it sure. No I don't care and I think it's a brilliant idea. One that I've been giving a little thought to just kind of needling him every opportunity chance I get just because I like it I even asked him I said. What are you going to be on the vineyard I'll I'll meet you on the venues, and just you know, shouted to in a crowded restaurant of all the lives you destroyed. You know during your lifetime I got a better idea. I'm telling you I'm going to be your Agen on this project. You meet them on the vineyard at the Nude beach that he hanging. Out Great. I can't use picture. Alan Dershowitz there with a t shirt. Nothing else just bought him from the waist down baking sun over bald. Why did it? Why do you hate him so well? Just because you know, I mean especially with the Epstein case you know how many young lives that he just destroyed and that's really what would would would tip the iceberg for me. I always thought he was vile and a self promoter and just. Human being, but when you get underage girls involved when you look at them, and in your job is to tear them down I. Keep saying. How do you sleep at night now? If, that's if that's your goal in life then you're not somebody that. Deserves the title you have. And he's and he's eighty I. mean like I said sometimes the the bad ones last forever, Sir these ATV still out there. He wants a book like every three weeks and he's. Now, he's you know on trump's side, so he's get more airtime more facetime than ever because he's fighting for for trump against all his old. Colleagues. He's kind of made a whole new Three hundred thousand twitter followers. He's on twitter all day, and they just bashed the hell on twitter so I love reading the comments you know on my lunch break just. Put a big smile on my face I would. See I. Mean that's. Is. That's. David Harland. Up We're just finished a new book with James. Patterson on John Lennon so it's the last days of John Lennon's life, which will come out on the fortieth anniversary of his assassination, and we interviewed Paul, McCartney. We interviewed everybody around him. You know and it's. It's just really twisted story of not only Mark David Chapman, the killer but John and Yoko at that time, so even people that don't like the Beatles. I'm a big Beatles Fan but I. Think people will get something from it because it's a really unusual tale. That sounds excellent. You bring in James Patterson just to sell books I. Mean He doesn't actually type anything. Does he know well? We Co off the book with James Mattis. James's a great guy. I'M GONNA Guess Casey Dave, which did most of the type and on that one, but understand by the way James Patterson. Did A book about Epstein. And left Clinton out of it completely unknown. If you're wear this little. Bit Off off Scot Free, and then his next book was with Bill. Clinton, so I have some questions for you knew Buzzy, but he addison by the way. Big Story I shouldn't say story today. One of those you know twitter stories. Coming out ABC's got it. There's a movement now to change the national anthem along with everything else in our history books and statues and the national anthem they want. You know what it is. Imagine there's no country. So they WANNA make imagine the new national anthem, a song about getting rid of countries and borders and you Lenin. Wouldn't even like that you know. I mean Leonard was a cynical bastard in many ways and I. You know getting to know him a little bit through the research of the book actually like the more after the research that I did going into life. He would not like that idea at all you. You said it's not coming out to the remember sitting watching Monday night football with my father when they when Howard cosell announced the murder, so that was when November December that were that was December eight, thousand, nine hundred eighty are out December seventh in we go. We got an interview with the ABC News Producer. This guy named Alan Weiss. WHO said that information up to the booth where Howard cosell eventually told a world that Lennon was? Assassinated and this guy had just been involved in a motorcycle accident in Central Park in. He's in the Er when John Lennon wielding. We also interviewed the surgeon that was massaging. John Lennon's heart trying to get a heartbeat, but ultimately Lennon died in a sense and I know he lives with one hundred year old mother, but did you go and knock on mark? David Chapman's door now Mark David Chapman. Is he still in prison and made was getting. John Hang Quick Oh I'm sorry. But. There is a convenience mixed up. Yeah! John Hinckley was actually at the massive vigil in Central Park days after Lennon's murder and Later shot shot Reagan. Yeah Wow so mark David Chapman's in prison. I'm sure it's easy time. He's not like in maximum security or anything. Did you He's Wendy upstate, not actually. He's an upstate New York. We made several attempts. We wrote him and he just wouldn't do it and I think he's probably got a deal with somebody you know spills the beans again. you know the the week of of the anniversary, but we go into Chapman it. What a what a freak show! That guy was what all the all the bells and whistles were there. He was firing off sirens. For for months, if not years about killing John, Lennon and nobody took him seriously. Wow, that sounds excellent I like I. Say you guys? Come up with good ideas. Some people come up with good ideas and they can't execute them. You guys come up with good ideas and yet execute him, and this certainly qualifies for Latte. Hunting Whitey the inside story of capture and killing of America's most wanted crime boss. I would say you pull it off case he can greg. Really appreciate it Jerry. Thanks to so much excellent read. You know needed, but I wish you luck and I assume A. Assume you're on the go in the movie. Rights with someone as we speak correct while we're looking at you know. Bryan Cranston Ed Harris Woody Harrelson. You know realize. Yeah, yeah, we're. We're having some some discussions right now. As the WHO's GonNa? Play him the in the in the miniseries. Opposite Helen Mirren as Catherine Greg Wa. Role the way to see you. Know we're producing the. We're producing it and we may be onset. We may be in the. In the series in some seen, but I doubt. Excellent, well Good Luck Casey. Good job I appreciate a thank you. Why do you the inside story of the capture and killing of America's most wanted crime boss I gotTa Say I. Got The book and I was a little skeptical. I felt like I might read it and not learn a whole lot like I said of read everything I mean it's. It's good if you don't know anything about. Whitey is really good. Because you're GONNA, learn a lot, but I was afraid I wouldn't learn anything I. Don't like reading books I felt like I know everything of learned everything. Rid It all before and a red, all Howie, Carr stuff and. I read black masked by the globe. Guys and saw the movie and these guys to a great job. I mean there's new details throughout the book about Whitey's life, and in his life of crime in Boston, and all the murders and all the details, but then and then it really gets kind of revealing, because you learn all about his life on the run with Catherine Greg and where they went, and who they met, and how they managed to avoid capture and detection, and then they settle in Santa Monica and they feed stray cats, and which leads to their captured by the way feeding stray cats I won't give it all away. but they get. Then they go through the trial. And all the whiteys friends turn on him, and then he goes to prison and he's been. He gets flown all over the country. Arizona's and Florida ends up in West Virginia. At this place called Misery Mountain Hazelton. West Virginia were they know everybody they say to? People don't survive in Hazleton in misery, mountain, pedophile and rats, and there's a bunch of mobsters. They're doing hard time. Some of whom have no tolerance for rats including this cleanest Guy Freddie. Freddie Jesus is a springfield mobster. Casey Sherman Dave. Wedge introduce you to him and his whole family. They spent a Lotta time with his daughter. The guys like a normal family guide. For a while, but then he. Goes real bad starts you know killing people for the mob and he waits. Let's. Let's Whitey settle in for twelve hours. He gets into this new prison. Is There for twelve hours? Early enough time to meet his roomy roommate takes a walk. Whitey's alone in his cell and on video they could see Freddy in another guy. Big Paulie. go in there with their socks. The more padlock and a sock just beat the hell. OUTTA Whitey they don't rip is is out, but they do bash them in, and it's a just and fair and appropriate end. To this guy's what eighty years of of crime eighty seventy something years of ruining lives of destroying families of destroying Selfie of dealing drugs of Pedophilia and murder and rape and torture and. Just the most contemptible human being ever any any any dies as he should in misery in pain in agony. It's good I mean it's too bad. Billy, Bolger and the rest of this bolger client has gotten away with so much over the years, but. Why did he didn't what he did not go off into the sunset and live happily ever after which is a good thing, but these guys do an excellent job of Kinda doing that like I, said appeared to. You feel like you know everything about Lincoln everything above JFK, and then you learn about. The the plot to kill them. You know there's a great book about. John Wilkes boosts time on the run called manhunt, excellent, but very suspenseful things. You didn't know about John. Wilkes booth, and how we get away for a while and I was on the run. That's what this feels like feels like the last chapter and I didn't know all the details about the last chapter this is. A whole story of how it all ended for Whitey. And it's a happy story in a good story. Hunting Whitey. Sherman Day, witch Thanks Casey. Thanks, to colony of special edition, a bonus weekend edition of the Callahan podcast I'm Jerry. Kelly and I will talk you again Monday morning. Why am I stopping you? No one else stops. I don't I? Can I go home? Good Gerry Callahan podcast.