20 Episode results for "Dean John"

Hashing It Out #82- The Transition with Dean & John

The Bitcoin Podcast

57:33 min | 9 months ago

Hashing It Out #82- The Transition with Dean & John

"Into welcome to hashing it out a podcast restock to the tech innovators in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds. Why and help people build this technology problems? They faced along the way. I'm listening to learn the best. In the business can join erect. Talk all right. Welcome back to hash it out as always I'm your host Dr Lori. Petty Co One. Last time calling say what's up everybody calling everybody. Colin and that is a missile focused to get into it. That's the last time you'll be hearing collins site that officially you make the guest host at some point but collins leaving the show. We're going to talk about that today and introduce to you. Two more hosts that will be joining me and this journey of hashing things out that is deny gunman John Marlin start the show. I haven't you to use yourself who you are or you come from Let's just take it from there dean. You go first. Hey guys I'm Dean I work at status with Corey. I'm a protocol researcher. They're based out of Zurich Switzerland. That's that's a shitty interesting. We'll get into that like I introduction but I hate interesting. My saw answer John. No no kids kids Jerry. He's eighteen twenty nine. Okay Yeah Yeah. Name's John Marsland. My online handle. Burr crypto dealings morale Ian E. L. A. N. I'm contract security auditor. Sense Diligence where I've been since twenty seventeen rhetoric wing. Base background is in math and mechanical engineering. So anything I learned I picked myself along the way. I like to just put that out there so that I can read asking questions like these. You're right on so How do you want to start their talk about you? Why what what? What are you doing with your life where you're going? What was the purpose reliever loves slowly Miranda? Marin around in walking in circles talking to myself this cord seen A lot of time as episodes hasn't been as consistently you appearing on it US The the taking my focus for for now and. I really feel like I'm doing a show a disservice by not having the torch a little a little house and so that's what I'm doing is basically kind of a focus of labs is the door if applied for launched on and reassess my life from their road after that to adult want. Su who led the show suffer offer. Because I'm planning on doing ridiculous hours for the next couple of years so reasonable and I personally appreciate the fact that you're willing to admit that and try and leave amicably so that we can continue doing the show and you can continue focusing on what you like. The idea caught your shit know like it. How could it ruins for? Let's see how could it actually read a bridge with you and your son is everything's wonderful. Yeah it's hard. It's hard to you know. Yeah the only way like you. Just gotTa be straight up and honest about it so I think hope people sleep but after calling decided that he wanted to move on which I totally support I try to think about. I needed to find someone to replace him. Because doing a show by yourself isn't nearly as fun and so- replacing someone who has the chops to speak technically on a very broad range of subjects the be critical without being an asshole southern question being able to steer steer conversations in a way that isn't obvious to the listener or the person that you're or the person you're talking to the I guess the qualities that are looking for in a show like this are hard to find and so I thought about who I know that would benefit from doing so. I think this would enjoy. It has the capability of doing it at every stop Dean where work with in some capacity at status because in my opinion he set all of those bills at the same time like immediately after I talked with Dean about this and he. He said he'd like to try doing it. John contacted me and said what the Hell of a pitch on expressing his interest for joining the show too. So basically just all right. Let's bring it in. Have everyone do it? I think spreading the load across multiple people is easier because Colin put it like cello. Call this because it's difficult to carry on doing a podcast for a long period of time if it becomes a burden instead of goal here is the have very qualified people. Continue the show in such a way that doesn't make any significant burden on any individual so debts owed dean was my like. I don't know Jonathan Wasserman chose you only dino's leverage choice Unsafe Manage Corey night. Yes in at the end. You definitely were taking asthma. Loaded question here. John only only kind of make me feel better about myself. Why did you? Why don't you reach out to me? Why did you want to put your name in the hat for becoming a co host of the show? What did you do sir? I think you have to call in telegram. Shannon like an with verbal and I mean I sort of assume you'd be inundated with with people jumping on the opportunity. I waited a few days because I just generally try not to make snap decisions about how to spend my time and like overcommit things but I thought I just as this is such an opportunity is and you and I have been talking about it like a couple of weeks before. Even I'd asked you of I'd ask. It just seems like such a perfect way to learn. I already was to hashing in. Learn a lot from the people you talk to on it and I can tell the reason you do it are I think is like so that you have an excuse to invite released mark. People argue about what they're doing and learn from them and I think it's There's one thing to like. Listen to your gas while you're washing dishes or or running but it's a completely different things you have to engage in the conversation deeply enough. I you know you have a model of. What's in the other person's head and you have to like have some idea of what they know going into it so I just think it all. It's like a really great hack for learning a lot of different topics much more effectively. I think the nail the way I do it at like at least partially like that's a great way to force yourself to stay up to date with the things you're interested end by talking with people directly being able to ask them questions about Udine like why did you say yes. I asked you so for me. It was also the learning. Because what what I've found is that I feel like on podcasts. We get people who are currently more relevant and whose work is currently more relevant and my research mainly has kind of turned too far older research where I am missing out a lot of the new stuff coming up and so I feel like being on a podcast. Cast media ability to stay informed. But like what's latest in this in this space to be mindful of that we don't have to limit ourselves. So what's new in any way shape or form right? This show is not about new projects in blockchain show is about trying to understand rock Explain like show interesting work being done in I would call the decentralisation space right or catastrophe like difficult problems that are being worked on or have been worked on for a long period of time that mini don't know about or understand completely and just trying to get the people on who've been influential in those things talk about them understand them and expose them to a broader audience. And that could mean anything that you personally feel interested like tier systems. Cryptography distributed distributed systems. See here I you name it credible while I talk about crypt economics dean. He's your person. I know that someone actually just gave me a radical markets book. And I don't know what to do with it because I'm sure as hell not gonNA redon deed hate on while so out to like. That's the whole goal right is like you're interested in things. There's things that become you know. Wax and wane in terms of popularity. We WanNa try and talk about them from a very technical level to get an idea of why they become popular why they're influential and figure out like where they may fit into a larger ecosystem like why is useful in any given context. Why would someone use it or take advantage of it? Or what is it? Changed it. Produce lose didn't change so it's up to us to craft whatever that is and it's based on our interests that's really about it the audiences or don't you're on the show right now do you listen to the show your audience. Then you get to make this whatever you want. There's somebody out there that you really WanNa talk to you. Hey Ru I got podcasts. In nine times out of ten. They're like I WANNA microphone. In my face in I'm actually positions like the hardest people like Was HORRID CRISTOBAL. Like really hard for US book. Actually you know. I got that one because we tried for a while edibles a PRONUNCIA budget. Math guy so He's a he's brilliant. Someone seen him talk. It's and really insightful. In a real one. But you know skeptical podcasts. Like oh just GonNa ask you to show corners of like. I guess I don't know but I think the Russell I got it got you know. Help US connect the dots. See anybody want is if you can just get the here. What the show's in the Believe they're going to be interesting program. It's a quality like what's people understand the format of the show and it's not my aunt kind of there's no real agenda like we're not trying to get people to say things or do things or craft specific narrative and then get people to kind of a follow along with it. They tend to open up and really just kind of talk about the things they're passionate about. If you get the right people you get like a really good explanations of technical topics are interesting without really like trying that hard and it's also information you can't get anywhere else. Which is something that I've always really enjoyed right. If you can get people to open up and start to really talk about the things that they're passionate about you. I you learn a lot about why the person does what they do what they think about it. It gives intuition about that thing. You may not. You might not be able to get anywhere else and information. You can't get from a website. And so it's that's why that's basically. Why podcast as that you get people come on and talk about things that they care about. You can ask them questions. You wouldn't necessarily get a chance to try and go through traditional means like a support ticket system or online wicky and things like that and so that's what I want to show beat and in the process of doing that you broadcast it out and give it some people for free and they thank you for it. That's it and so if that's something you're into that's what this is and you have the opportunity to kind of help me figure out who to talk to. What talk about and so on and so forth not being too big of a deal because the format of a show. It doesn't require a lot of post production. It's just record through a couple of filters on it throw it out there so with that in mind. Like what types of things do you WanNa talk about like I say Dean what? What are your current interests right now right now getting into more traditional distributed systems reading so probably a lot of the things that will be interesting to me is speaking to like some of the older professors who were working on like things which we're actually implementing now like Barbara Lists Cough. Leslie Lamport people like that. Would you ask him what do you? What do you WanNa talk him about? I don't know Latte. Firstly with people who were working on site listened to the podcast yesterday. zero knowledge podcast with The researcher from VM. Ware I forgot his name right now and I think one of the interesting points raised in that podcast was the fact that people were coming up with all these Byzantine Fault Tolerant Consensus Algorithms. But at the time when they were inventing them there was actually no practical use case to any of them so it will be interesting to see their opinions on like what is actually happening in this base with people implementing these things how feel about their research being implemented in face see themselves like working on this stuff ever again because of the fact that it's now become a practical research you they don't curious about that do you think. They like super happy that a lot of lot of their work that was done from an intellectual standpoint is now the subject of so many practical applications but typically. Kinda done terribly so that that might be a good point and I think a lot of a lot of them may have the feeling that their that their work is getting used for purely scams which I hear a lot from academia word. They think that a lot of things in blockchain just because it mentions blockchain is inherently a scam and so will be interesting to know like how many of these professors have actually looked into some of the stuff. That's coming out of this case. Unlike a deeper level John One one thing. I'm excited about Dean being on this as well as that I feel like the consensus consensus algorithms consensus layers somewhere. That I liked to learn a lot more. I feel Kinda lost. That'll be a bonus. But but where I I guess I like. Naturally gravitates words is security stuff and like bit higher levels so security processes language design and human factors that go into security just like what it takes to build a culture of security that it doesn't end up blowing up your small startup and using everybody's money And I I I've been. I'm starting to get actually excited about defy endows and I was skeptical of both those things a little bit but the more I look at in and actually see those things and people doing really crazy things with permission. Listen Invasion I would say I'm I feel drawn to very tight about it while at the same time like I feel like we'RE GONNA. Watch people continue to throw up in in very exciting ways for a little while now but it's fun to be a long right now. Part of that release the first person that you sorry call. It'd be like the first people you would probably regency. Then it's like teams but he was As ambitious but like what would what would be so. Awesome the Looking at race apple a whose research you're specifically reading and WHO's WHO's just coming up on your radar lot that you think you might be interested in reach lots of middle here this yeah The first person that came to mind is wayne his name on twitter. Use Allegra and I think like like he's. He's Ervin expert in informal methods testing but like programming language design. He just seemed really interesting. Like he's like very engaged in always asking questions You know recent twitter threat was just with your favorite language feature in whatever. Language is managed to do that. Like both very very deeply technical is like there's a lot with gla plus in Enzo formal specification from wiling but it also brings in e like things about the human layer and and what actually needed to bill seat your software which I think is like really the ultimate challenge so so yeah I thought about it. I'll reaching we're mixture of like all of us here. D started working on some some plus specifications of Oughta date. You do that. And why 'cause like for one kind of this strange thing that we all have in common in some way shape or form right like you. I. Let's not right. So that's that's the only thing I have here in. A of the show like Colin works at Uva and John Literally just talked about his interests which include things like formal specification languages delay. Plus like what would you do that? Like what so delay pluses essentially the language which is used if you WANNA test a distributor or concurrent algorithms and the problem with it is is. It's it's in Texas really takes quite some getting used to and it's kind of impossible to learn unless I feel like you actually have something that is simple enough to SPEC out invitations Specification and consensus algorithms in general are concurrent distributed algorithms which are perfect for for implementing in. T- La but pretty much every other consensus algorithm. Which would be simple enough to implement. Gla has already been implemented in TI whereas Seemed like kind of this low hanging fruit which was not too hard. A consensus algorithm to implement and had not been implemented yet. And that's why I went with that and I was mainly interested in learning more about the avalanche consensus protocol family in general anyways. 'cause I was doing some reading on it. I'm sorry I was interested tax. Hey let's against what what was your question is like really slow. Sloping Consensus Senator Bennett. Second ago sorry. Dogs are barking at the beef. Forbidden doesn't matter episode doing specification of a like. What's the benefit of speaking out? Something like a consensus algorithm in a technical technical specification specification language like Jelly. Plus what do you get out of that team? If you ask Leslie Lamport the answer would probably be that. A If you don't have a formal specification you don't have a real algorithm yet but With things like Gla what you can do. You can check the model and assert that your safety and lightness assumptions. Actually hold because what it will do is it will run your model with every possible state. That it can generate concede that Alba safety lives Assumptions still hold. So that's super useful for example I think it was Mongo. Db They had this entire replication algorithm and salt that it works up until they had decided to model it in T- La and after like a couple of years essentially found that there was a bug in their original implementation of the reputation of which they would not have found without formally modeling it and it took a few years. It took it took them a few years to essentially the bug because they had only written the implementation of it. Mta after like two or three years of already running this replication algorithm production years of Gla. Writing I I'm not. I'm not mega money. Drinking more people who are real deep in their way different than I am but he did do the mathematical her change on these civils which is essentially. It's he'll I it's it's so my question. Like what about analysis? Did you find insufficient in? Do you think that it's healing actually free to the two? I have not actually read that analysis so I'm sure that the team has done analysis asset for me. The main goal with doing the specification in avalanche was just to one learn more about avalanche the family and learned later in the snow family. Lately been mixed lodges because we have avenue and Snowman. Wants Chain Stag. In Ed's they're both kind of a little different way the handle stuff so we called the overall consensus and the Individual Implementations Avalanche in Suomen. Lisa's we've been doing so far doesn't seem quite as city is interesting too. Good to bring Colin and Kevin. Goon back on the show now. Dean is a part of it with his interest in this stuff to go through this. This family have done before. I think it's interesting to do it again. With a new lynch of Dean and the things that he's interested in that'd be great. Kevin you agree I Kevin Also really regard each needs I'd love to do that too. I really liked both Kevin and I talked to them every now John. How did you? How did you go from math guy? Which is broad broad thing? Call yourself to to human lens of security like yeah. I'm not sure that I am Sorta all Orne. I really enjoy math Idea who I do but I don't feel like it's totally natural to me the human sized jury. I don't know I guess I think I've always been somewhat like version likely less on the autism spectrum than a lot of engineers So so I I do find people interesting and think that they are kind of their quarterback in making things for We got that reactor but yeah I mean I think I think it takes that to WanNa talk to people ally and I find that act. Yeah you get you get the lake. Bird nerdy analytical types And and and they're very powerful in a way but it's still humans of the end of the day and I think that like making things. Actually work is sort of That you should write your cove not for not for us to impress people but light so the guy who's just trying to get through an eight hour days of you get home and watch something like like that Reich. That's you should yellow region code and understand it and maintain it in the future Those are the things that I find interesting. You name an example where the human isn't the thing at the end like is involved a human user and I mean we're we're we're using US coating technology as a kind of a amplifier for human desire or convenience or something else other instances where that's not the case over sake or code for me. L. Code is run on Sheen For a specific use thing that ultimately serves some human sure What was IT Voyager there's a space probe that we send a running software they no human will ever interact with again I guess we wrote it to feel good about. What'd stewing at air but generally about it and feel warm fuzzy buddy at like as playing probably bar veneers fats. The majority of the things that we do humans and so taking them out of the loop consideration is is usually. You're not gonNA have a good sign up all resort fashion night challenging offer this or people. There's no charge literally Yeah Yeah it's always. It's always need satisfying needs art of what I like about this moving forward especially if having kind of more people involved outside of just me and one other person is that it's it. Spreads spreads a few things. One is the domain expertise or the interest. Like you said you're more interested in things that Dean is not. There's an overlap here but it's not that interested in what Dean is interested in. I just don't have like a vote is in late seeing lane for Times so late dollar or there is very sexy area that I just wish I could like no either more about so. I'm really excited to just like draft. Like just like just learn from white light spills off of screens. Conversations is hilarious and people are subtly going consensus says this kid literally historically relied like two hundred people in the world you know anything about the Isley so as Rohingya research but like are still playing. Catch up for like twenty thirty years. Nobody gave a shit and got that right. I guess I guess. The main application of like distributed consensus algorithms. That brought a lot of attention to them was money like you found something grew that had value associated with it and not pure and some obscure scientific area that they're lying fundamentals of how that networks and blows up because there's human greed attached to it student. It's like it's truly money will bring anything may get seriously. It was cute until. Ics Like theory of change. Everything defied defy defy defied. Like we're going to shift the computing power paid for on demand. And it'll be saved on worry about it will will will use game theory. We've like put money into something if people suddenly start getting imagine nations And I think that's what's going on here said you know. The imagination has been sparked in. I do think that there's a lot of interesting stuff in consensus excited to watch you grow from the podcast Joan. Because there's a lot more to the space security and security is way different in this state. Senate is another spaces in a lot of. That's due to the fact that we have consensus has been later. Everything that we're doing. It's incredible watches like PC multiparty computation lake systems like impacts the way that we view security and financial systems because this is so incredibly specialized so You can't ignore. You can't ignore what to safety versus lightness. Trade-offs me. You just can't And I think it's GonNa be really interesting to watch you. Kinda like get deep into that. Because you're gonNA need to valid and I think the audience about it so that you're here to explode. Listen yeah unhappy. And there's definitely a multidisciplinary aspect of all of these things. Which is kind of this is something I found out during my PhD was is in a basket of computer. Science CanNot Chemistry and Physics and it was incredibly multi disciplinary and so. I had to learn a lot of things that I wasn't necessarily taught formerly during my undergraduate and it became clear that anything that's novel. Most of the things that are novel today are going to be inherently multi disciplinary. And if you take that idea and bring it into the decentralization or blockchain or like trust `less industry. Whatever the hell you want to call this thing. It's incredibly multidisciplinary. Bring in a bunch of different traditional specialties and trying to melt them together and ways that that's not necessarily haven't been done for talking about consensus Algorithms Economics. Cryptography excess social community behavior at all of these weird things that seem disparate. Before the technology are now like inexorably intertwined and so like a show like this tries to look at each of the things and figure out how they work and what happens within them and then try and puzzle piece them together until the broader picture of like. How can you put them together to make something? That's useful are like that. Serves the demands and requirements of all the stuff that we're trying to build ultimately to like make humans lives better or more trustees trustworthy or give people the power back or whatever your narrative. Du Jour is like we need to bring people together with different areas of interest and expertise to ask those questions because I may not be able to ask a poignant question to someone in distributed systems that Dean made. Because he's he's focus of attention right now. Saint John I insecurity. But you're I'd say deeper insecurity with with more experience than something like that right like itching to being able to kind of broaden the topics as well as like increase the quality of questioning. When you're talking about these things but ultimately it's should always be a conversation like this just with different people in the room like we always tell our guests like when they before we start the show a like. They're already expecting to kind of have traditional podcast interview where they have to chill answer point very specific questions pushing a narrative. I like that it's like no. You're at a bar with some technical people and they're asking you questions and you're having a conversation it's it's laid back it's conversational and the audience should feel like they're at the bar to the unfortunately don't have the opportunity to speak up. If the way the show with four is that latter half of the episodes were the real meat it is in the first part is typically the show. That's what we do why we do. It is where I'm from Graham. I'm the beach in the puppies. You know like the first half hour typically episodes you can have our like without for things start getting because we have a set of done and that's where things become dig yearly interesting. So we're we're into the second half of the episode now. I'm kind of curious. What are you to build? What have you still to built in the past? Got You to where you are now. What is your what is your say. I've got a background in jury. I'm focusing on on a consensus. How did you win in this particular place in time? How did you become the person that you are today because these important audience know what you bring to the table when you ask these questions because of frames the background of questions? You're voting for me Nineties that's where it came from bill through through that because the money was You know but you guys like you're both very into very deep fields so like we'll start you on. What is what what got you into the security role in Crypto specifically? Yeah also when I I guess I I got into the theory through I wanted to Jeff Collins Shanghai when I was there which was basically to see and that was a few months. After the Dow had and in Shanghai there was referred to his love with love from Shanghai attack Which was a pretty crazy attack at the lake on the gas layer and Basically what it did was Somebody figured out that views officer Cao You got on your gas Martin Back Khalifa like stay there and continue Jacob States face and just like screw everything up so they started doing this massively and there was like a real time response gathered offers offers hanging in lobbies fixing this So that lands for the leg the critical nature of in face me thought it was obvious eden or I was watching the Dow. Take off while I was working at quaint days and I was like while I was there I was in like a developers or painful so I was helping developers were with the is that fungus is helping and integrate the on base awkward so very deep understanding of the fact that always existence get bugs awkward. His deal of all time and help people deal with them. So I think there's just how is it that everybody's like so confident that this awkward is just works as advertise not just say that I bet against it has the game some way but it will solve evidence? We have time. That couldn't go. Well I did. I really drew me to it. And then I've also John at the time the nets as offense from consensus And met there really were shell one another's and the journey when I joined in so I first incentivize. I wouldn't say I was like I. Am I want alone? if backtrack actually before Learn a lot of the station. Sleigh was the avenue. Johnston raise us to Gatien. I want to be interviewed by the way I mean I know Gene Leis works of Invariables Asli Way more than I wish. I saw it Morton. Yeah he's Great. Aren't we going Yes it was a consensus and Leslie Jim Seeing Farming out of time and I just. I did everything I could to help me get happened in and helped record and you know. I felt like an impostor I Overly confident in my Thirty two security house Asian smart contract layer up layer layer at this point so this is brushing wasn't too wordy and so. I laid out how you got here really knows. What chops did you brings? ask questions you come from this framework of understanding in. It's important that people understand what you're so yeah like a decades sardine handle their translates to denying Latin. I know I know I did. Pretty interesting. The principal Venus a great. Yeah it's a background to as well because he means like ten something. I can't even remember leader ten or something like little units. They had like ten people. So the person who ran the Feeble was the DECA Muchly it just kind of grew from there into something words. More change is funny. Can't not see the Amos part because mature. I quite a bit. I'm in a naive childhood. I chose that name. Oh this be cool but so I pretty much started working professionally in software development at the age of fifteen which is when I dropped out of high school started in Ios Development and then quickly moved to e commerce. Where I was working at one of Switzerland's largest ECOMMERCE websites where we had like few distributed systems problems that we were working on solving which was mainly about like scaling This server well enough and things like consistency when it comes to a shopping cart and stuff like that and while I was doing that I discovered is Syrian. Pretty much an I met this guy called Matthew Frente. I don't even remember how I met him. I think it was because I remember now. Actually I was working a something kind of like Aragon and posted it on Reddit. And he was a security auditor. Shot all over how insecure my code was And then we got into conversation and we. I quickly joined his team. Doing security audits where then life work or I worked on that for like a solid two years and in that period of time I was injured. Used Ten Nick Johnson where I then started working on s with him and quickly became one of the main developers on that team and then after two years of doing smart contract security and having to deal with clients. I kinda got fed up with it and decided that I wanted to do something. That's no longer smart contracts or blockchain's and I was looking or -sition and jared at than hit me up that he was looking for someone to do protocol research for a new messaging protocol status and I had gotten quite a few offers but that was really the only one which let me dive into distributed systems problems beyond like the blockchain and so that was the thing to me which I was like the natural fit in so for a little over a year. Now I've been doing that status consistently reading and trying to get as much knowledge as I can in the field of distributed systems. Well it sounds like you fix locally. Very high school to become provincial. How did you nothing? Yeah I was playing Super Mario. For Video Games. Final fantasy seven came out was all about that in. Here's another I guess free impressive. I didn't even know you could do. Oh you're you're you're not American thing for drought professional social here. I don't know if that's these days don't change you have to. If you have the chops you can you can Contribute quality work to somebody. I don't think they really maybe labor laws that have an issue but in Switzerland Thurs the benefit that it that we have the apprenticeship system so at the age of sixteen people either decides to do an apprenticeship in a specific career which you can do really anything in Switzerland so you can get an apprenticeship in self development. You can do whatever or are. They continue high school to continue with university later on so what I had done is I. I dropped out. I did an internship in IOS development while was searching for an apprenticeship in software development so time in ECOMMERCE was finishing my apprenticeship. Essentially I apprentice ship system is one of the greatest losses totally North American patients that Lodge Trade Switzerland. It's amazing it's great. It meant that I don't have to high school and do all this crap that I didn't care about and could focus on that I really. You're now kind of turning that and seeking traditional education to supplement the things you're interested in right you're actively looking for the wisdom of old judicial systems education but not through is lying stuff by any means right. That's more like graduate level degrees and call through traditional system like going back to school. I was considering it which was actually one of the reasons I I was talking to was discussion of whether or not I wanNA do some form of degree in computer science. I'm still kind of on defense. I'm not entirely sure I'm twenty one so I think there's quite a bit of time to honestly on you could've frank with you or they these a lot better meaning. That really enjoyed college. Every ten years suffered through agree. Who is working crazy? So it's not like you know There's a there's definitely two types of people who succeed typically You know and someone. Who's WHO's technically academics. Wondering where you're going to go with that. Well you got words that academia. Yeah I love it. I'm I was built for. It's my favorite. That was not what you told me. I don't recommend it to most people. It's not something that everyone should do. It shouldn't be the standard and you can waste a lot of money and time doing it by not having a clear clear goal of what you're trying to do especially if you're forcing yourself to do it and you're not cut from. That cloth is used to the higher Tolerance gets Parcels depends on. It depends on where you are what you're doing the SPEC that variants men Curriculum across schools for different degrees. It's so different than if you can't give broad broad statements about that like for me. I think I had. I was incredibly lucky with where I went and who I was taught by shapes you I am today and gave me a lot of the skills that I have which is let them success but like I know a lot of people in very similar situations in some cases by classmates who did not have the same for me it worked really well and I do it over and over and over again if I had to the money time and lack of responsibility I would be a professional student for the rest of my life. I would have multiple. Phd's and just stay in school. That's what's been interesting but like that's not a lot of people don't want to do that. Is is definitely definitely not over the way but we those people. I'm not trying to sell Donald as you say was dibble's benefit. I think from an Burgum. Joining should click technologists. Change quite a bit in terms of access to information so you can get access to a lot of the information that was typically walled off during a some education course like some degree. Don't get typically. I think we as a society are trying to figure out ways of doing. It is the wisdom associated with how you get that information. What order to take it in Gotcha IS IN MY OPINION. An expert as someone who knows exactly what not to do or experience or or making the mistake. I think a lot of Talk Design Huh. It's hard to do that on the Internet. You end up wasting it is. I learned that way. That's how I learned. I learned by it up. Do you not high alert house healthy links south permissions properly. Sir. I'm not alive service. It's terrible in nineteen ninety nine never touched a UNIX system. Life is everything's windows games for people have links out of fresh 'cause finds a redhead even IPO yet and now they didn't select yet adhere given censorship ancelotti drops in front of me. And I'm getting sick of suing into route or not suited exists as humans room and it was an the hell me on the CPU excellent cluster loading into the survey time. What I'm trying to do is like seven. Seven seven slash. I never MoD modern model Thoma literally server in a way so years old laboratory do like. Please don't take macrophages nice about it. You know were eight but You know essays late a day to get that server back online so I you know from point forward amid sure. That new garages were in how they worked and why they were that way. In how while the operating system those at the hardest lesson smacked you cross the cyberspace knows better. Go for it. Is that the best way to go about things but you. You made read that. Of course I don't remember for the horse across space. Remember I remember for the rest of my life law right. Have you wrap up on that pretty you can you? Can we please nine the school or Nicer? Goddamn everything? Legitimate Point irritates conversation. If you have time for longer but run out of time here and I wanted to thank Colin for starting this with me. Bring it's where it is and then passing the torch to to people who I think are going to make it grow even more. So thanks for joining me Dean and John. I look forward to what we can do with this. And we'll see you back and best of luck man. I don't to get out here house August.

Dean John Colin US Gla Jeff Collins Leslie Lamport researcher blockchain Switzerland Kevin auditor Marin John Marsland John Marlin Zurich Switzerland Corey Dr Lori Jerry
BBP 84 - Social Distancing Series - Fun at the BBP Vol. 20 (Coffee and A Samurai)

Brewsing Banter

2:35:22 hr | 5 months ago

BBP 84 - Social Distancing Series - Fun at the BBP Vol. 20 (Coffee and A Samurai)

"US into pass thinking. Maybe, I should start a podcast or me legendary brew crew Moroccan Anchor Since Day One. Hundred percent free. There's creation tools that allow you to record Japan cash right from your phone or computer. An ankle will distribute your podcast on spotify apple podcasts and anywhere else people listen to podcasts. Can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need. In one place. Download the free anchor. APP GO TO ANCHOR THAT FM GET STARTED I, know you want to so let's go. PODCAST. And with me. On. that. Data. Everybody. podcast about. Things happening in the world. Here. Rabid? Drink. Red Means. says. Baby. Sit On. A. Check. Those. Costa. Rica. Pay Me in. The Christmas that don't even go. Through. What up walking the bruising Banja podcast with a topic is the rocket in the broom. Lab Few and I'm your host rob with me as always letting brew crew. Going on Fellas. What is going on? Gee I love Belgium real too. High. High High. Hi In. Here today for episode. Before four. PODCAST. Episode. Twenty of our social distancing series. So as always we have special guest in the building, we're going to start where we have coffee in the building lifestyle and food blogger. How are you? Welcome welcome. Welcome. Well. How are you guys? Great. Good. Free, we just looking for craziness. I know blackberry and he talked about coffee. Berries. We also have. Hider. Aka If my G. There's December I piggy. Brewer. Leaking beard. Our you. I wouldn't. You've been busy everybody's been busy. Hey what's up man? We still got a job so. Surreal. that. And we were actually Kenny against them also. Go. Like. Always need to know before we get into it, I would need to know what we drink today. We always start with a guest coffee. Are you drinking today? So I, have one that I want to show just to kind of rub it in. Providence for Luke. This to me and I was waiting for my frustration. I was like, Oh, I talked about. Think. That's Right. How's it? How's IT taste? They tried it and I'm not GonNa try it today because I'm strictly I'm sticking with Texas dearest. Just put that in my just to do. Nice girl he's. Why don't This is a work. Optional lifestyle is a fruited. Sour is still collaboration race. Chris House and smid brilliant. US. This is the first one I'm. Going to. Be Drinking. Then 'cause you know what I'm trying to be. Not Drink too much. Let this go. He'll I'm pie from Martin House? BERET IS A. Very, it's like this biscuit he and sour is just okay you said from. Brewery. Martin, how this important got? On. You know I knew you were Gonna ask that the both like five. Five point two. One. Is Six point two I love stoute's. But I, wasn't GonNa do that with you. Don't catch me flipping. Over. Eight, nine, ten. Yeah, you should you just out. Our. Crew member being though at least one of your bears have surpassed debonair and threshold. Cats. What are you during the day? You might assume taking a couple of sorority. Sorry about that. But I. The lawyers those surf Rep Rep in the brand. Ran. This label art is actually done by a very good friend of ours David Donal I can shoot you his instagram as well. He does like a lot of creative digital marketing stuff. And, yeah. So this is six point nine percent New England. Matt, we droplets grungiest and Morocco. I. All right. Louie during the day. I do as well today my first one is this heart. I WHY MANGO CAN'T LANA MANGO IS A. Mango Pale. Ale Chris Tropical refreshing. Davis at five. Apologize. To us a summertime being R. Roy was established in Nineteen eighty-six. Merry. Go hardly brewery on I G is a golden color orangish a little bit y'all that. And then my second beer debbie like this baby you. As An. Burriel sunshine by Blue Point Brewing Company. It's Blonde Ale with oranges and natural flavors and clocks in at. Nine point six. Today. Mean Punch. The podcast in the minute EJ? End Whereas. On asking questions y'all. Looks like we do we do a beer share. As a day I'll be coming to you. Yes, sir. I'm actually the I can I cracked day and I've got three of three I'm. The. Same One that a Earthy Samurai crack, which is the lawyers don't serve a juicy IPA coming in at the six point nine as the color of the of the of the beer. And Delicious. Tastes or every everything about it is is delicious. The second one that I am haven't cracked just yet, but we'll be my next or is the Natalie's blueberry lemonade but don't worry about that one because I got that one. and. I'm GonNa let my boy. explained it a little bit more when I'm going to. So. Because you know for whenever I say something living on it. So. Yeah. It's just does something. So this is that that Natalie stain and this is from Lincoln Lincoln Beard Brewing Company out of Miami Florida. Yes. This will look like here, and this is a a sour sale with lemons and blueberries. This is delicious. It's This is good like it reminds me like you know I don't know if it's like. Like a sour patchy taper. Off My day. You just drink that you could end up you know with it being hovering at like well Listrik. Not. So you good you sip on that all day on day. So we. There's two to create I mean I get into talks with people about this a lot. Sour isn't really a style of beer. It's just. The scripture saw the way you know there's two ways of making sour type beers and you know you can either barrel aged nation or go sour. So. What we do is we do something a little different. What we do is like we grew the base beer. And then we backs our it with sadr-azam. So that's the that's the the arguments that you tasted the beer. And once the base completely fermented out, we will hit it with whatever we decided to suit that salary. So this one actually we hit with blueberry concentrate. And then. We bought a immolates occurs. My form of. Measurement on on this as we hit with three buckets three, fifty, five pound bogus of blueberry concentrate, and then a shit ton of dried lemon. Curd. License. A dry a dry drama sites. We also headed with lemon zest as well. And the the way that we re circuit is you know we hook up. To the side of the bottom. So the bottom parts of the furniture and then we just you know keep running it but it was the the lemon slices were actually clogging but bumped so much. That we had to then. The brink over goes running through brings we have to sift of over into a into a bag and then go into the top court in Charter Shaw. The fifty pounds of lemon slices. Please Buber here's. A. General Bar bar number of people in our. Time in May. Embark. Assuming. It's as me and my boy that is thank while the his own. We. So we do move veered. That's. The. The reduction center of the Burris There are two spots and there's going to actually be a I bought opening up soon omay so were under the umbrella of arpad hospitality, Lincoln, beard. We brought beer there but where I got my start was strange beasts and that's where I started rowing. And that is a republic pizzeria and actually like minutes from my house. And the third spot is going to be the same concept different theme. Of actual brothers it's GonNa be a kind of like. speakeasy. rubab like very slick sleek design like nineteen, Fifty Years Catalogue I five Mitzvah that that's actually going to be opening up. Ulta by the end of. The year. You're sounds. Of Iraq. Yes. What are you drinking on today sir? I'm asking drinking the Natalie. As well yeah I'm drinking. My Black. Culture. tico-tico I'll never know how to say just say just say. Thank. You. But I'm also going to drink the neon tiger as well. What's our air with dark sweet cherry juice and Vanilla and that is point. Zero percent ABC, and also from Lincoln's Beer Brewing Company out of Miami Florida. Thing what? was actually a lot easier to do. That's my baby came up missing rob grow lakes. If you listen to come. If you listen beats And Tim Fluoride. Needs and versus. Yeah hits. We I approved this on a pack at four. was three years going strong no I mean you played that year one year. Into Twenty, twenty, two, twenty, twenty, seven. and. Twenty hits you got twenty songs. So real quick. She is running around the house doing stuff. That's why she can't. Really. She's actually giving me the time to to be on by body one swing by and say, Hi to Y'all. Stop. Yes Yeah. I. Working so you're the. Balance to thirsty. Summarize to his craziness the balance. Nothing. The best thing is up, people will be like odd. You take pictures like that. She's the one actually takes the patient. Now I've been featuring him a little bit more on my instagram. Whenever he comes out in with the last one. I don't know if you'd I saw he was wearing a bikini. In the backyard of people like, why do you? How can I bitch? Cancer. Growth ask me. Man where the game know by. Choice. A. Key there. You Go Mati. I I said to That I really enjoy not just your post about beer i. see you guys. You know obviously eat out a lot. You try mazing Zane What what? What draws you to you know to these different cuisines how do you guys like search for them or what is it draws you to some of these places in some of your host. My nationality is a Hispanic and. An Hispanic culture when people give you a hot plate of food let's I say, Hey, guys come through like I'm cooking dinner like I'm inviting you to eat a that's mon-. That's our way of saying I. Love You. So the way that I the reason why I love about food is because. I like most cultures were like those well. Way and. Food brings people together and then beer wine. All these other crafts drinks can have on the side is just bonus on top of that, and then really what matters at the end is who you're sharing the table with. The experience and so. than. Within the restaurants that I always find. They're always local small mom and pop places. Alpacas, a need to be promoting them and while I while I have worked for them. It's outback everyone out by case but. I feel more in with working with mom and pop shops dot cook amazing. Because they have an amazing story as well. You when. With sharing that story I feel like you can kind of. Stay stay in the food. So, taste that love yeah. Ourself. We've allowed to have you on show by yourself. High. Explains you guys. You know your your do Oh, you know your love for food in the authencity of that and then and being a brewery and making things in the story that come behind characteristics in the beer. Makes sense mobile your real crazy. So Crazy okay. You married them you're waiting so. Long Story Short. So alongside growing a muzzle running coach A. Point of Reference Love running ultramarathons. So anything thirty miles up. And I. waited. Thirty seconds to. Town. I was running I was I was a pacing one of my clients during a afterthought because I don't really care for road races and. When I run a marathon or less aware nothing but a speedo in a big hot. And it was the one Cold Day Miami where was rating overcast Wendy on running by this was her first half marathon this you've ever we have no friends in common. We've never met like, no, no close groups or anything to here's my goofy laugh coming off of mile eleven as you just said, she did a triple take the foot. By. Six Foot two dude Harry Dude. A. I I, caught my g found out later that this photo bomb a lot of people's pictures of camera public. So I actually folded picture over. You found me on instagram. Picture and let them those. Oh. When I saw hanging, there was one mile left to. Race my first half marathon like you said, it was cold. It was raining. And I am my mind. Okay. There's one more laugh GonNa Watch this like I'm done I was finished in my mind and when I saw him, I was like, okay. This guy is basically make it. I'm not stopping I'm fully closed. So he inspired me to finish my race and that's On instagram and I tied, him wasn't trying to Garissa. Editor. Split up in their. Talked to grow. By. A half. Day. Going on women the that race was January two, thousand seventeen. And we. Are I first dates were running days because we didn't want to be alone with me. Told areas. Really should ever heard though because. See. What the they not look back again. going. Off. But. That's a great wasn't recent near brought together. Love. It's either you're running faster to get away from. Or it's your money to catch up to me. As long as they're running, that's all that matters. Because he inspired come the race but without even knowing so. That's all. Good Story. Since she's GonNa plug herself I will all. That's our instagram. She is a digital marketing manager. She runs several craft beer and local mom and pop restaurants down here. MIAMI. And My manitou. Much. Faster. urged. Hey, why not? On. Her. Own. Out. Back money. Doing that coffee while you said. that. Listening laughing. About how much we're going to have. To. into. Sunday. Aware. Everybody will now. Ahmadis only she ain't. Going to get a drink. and. You need to pop in and out to you know. We hear two hours at least so. Just in case you don't not man you're enough. New. Earlier. He's a presence all by himself so he said eager to t-shirt. Speedo. Beatles that read them enough. That would be. What But between mighty myself is that you know the young. I want to say that like you know we I have my own personality and I'm Bob Presence. We feed off of each other. But what I love is later you know. I don't know if y'all have had friends in that instance where you know they start dating someone you know is just them to write in when else world like you know you lose contact reached you don't hear from you don't hear from until like break offers on there is. What I love about us like you know you do our own things you know what I mean like I go to work she goes to work when we call homer together word with each other. But like we have friends where we're our own people. But like she's my best friend. She's my best friend and that's that's something that ought. You know. Before I did proposes on wonder you know the before even marriage is on my mind. I wanted like someone that I can laugh with cry with you know do whatever and like. But at the same time, not be not so be like. You're you have to you have to be with me all the time hiding. All right we. Were, together, when we you know what we want and that's Where we're all. That's zone. Keep that up on lists. Yeah. That's that's definitely A. Challenge but it is a, it is a balanced to have that balance of. Me which you'll have together. But understanding that, hey, you guys did coexist or have the existence before. So you WANNA keep those. Tips and everything. That's you know that that ultimately you know. Have you ever let her given any input. Oh you or you brew on what you decide the the ball she Is I do harshest critic. Story on don't. Relationship episode. Instead. Okay They got their own sound. Not Beautiful Love Story. Them. Back Right. Up. But to hide her Haider's. Is Correct. I mean and even to the question in terms of the employees, I think we all probably have input throughout our lives whether it's for the podcast for us guys or or you know for food for brewing just anybody that you share a lot of quality time with in you start to share whether it's work. Or Fun or whatever they want to give their input they wanNA, give you some type of got their perspective of how you could be better or make something better not in this. Just another natural part or characters of of most people are investing in other people are person this question. So see the she helped you out some. She is my a I mean if you know that saying you're your own worst critic, she is our much farther. This. Work off I work off. and. You know I told people all the time like Yo if I'm bored to actually. Since y'all are here I would love to send you some. I was GONNA be born a month later I did D altogether recipe has own route I'll come with with some friends and that I did the black beautiful recipe has own. With the actually. And No frills those Jill's like we just did the streets you know recipe is was built. You know I would like the Senate. You guys to see what Y'all think we. Do, I want to be sending some shut out to Texas. Already seen. Man. So Loses to. Address, but we could. I'm actually so the for like for a lot of people that probably but I'm I'm percent Lebanese so I'm actually going to be doing a giveaway tomorrow. Maybe hosting a giveaway for the altogether. And then the week after I'm going to be doing a giveaway for the beautiful beer. I actually own a site, a recognized five. Oh, one C. three non profit. Samurai banning in France and that is geared toward children with disabilities special with special needs, cancer diabetes, and the less fortunate. So allow I host events here and there and I'll raise money. The first event that I did was for Saint Jude's raised over three thousand dollars. Iran for twenty four hours but that was. A. Long. I actually did it. So I was I was on pace to run hundred miles on the twenty four hours and then out about mile sixty miles oxo. I always thought for fifteen more miles on I got seventy five miles under this. lamaze miles and twenty four hours a bag ankles on a ball. No. Like I I was good up until sixty and. Fifteen miles on. Her Five miles a day. Right? That's. Like I. Like my life kind of weird off with another veered off. But like I've been focusing craft brewing perfecting my you know what I work with. and. I definitely want to get back into the running saying unlike an all the events have to be geared towards writing but light light is giveaways like the way that I'm kind of finding Lupul is you know donate to the charity and then that'll be an entry at that and you know on the notes you WanNa beer. Back. Also merging both all three things that you. Giving back a running into beer like. A. Great Way like you can always find. So niche that you have that not too many people in this industry are all all three of those things right nobody I don't think any how many people in the industry are running thirty, mile nobody. Brand. GUMRI. Offered do not to thirty. He said the half and. Maybe America. I you know I just thought. We don't want A. New One now. Now soon? All right. Oh well like we didn't start what we actually did start this. Are Woman Change. Our. Floor. But we do what we do know WanNa know more about you coffees well, so we want to know. How you guys done in food. And got in the craft beer all that stuff. So the floor. And lifestyle that's right. Anything you want. Okay. So I'll tell you how I got. My name is Ana but everyone calls me wherever. Me Coffee Thank you when I was in college as you. My name is a little difficult. So I came up with a nickname because I wanted to be a DJ so cocky around. These eight. What's ever? Still I actually bought all the equipment has training. I was an intern at a radio station in training like. Training to DJ. But I, went I was in junior college and when I went to big pile is I just I just lost interest digest hit. Literally. A Stage so I'm coffee. Will have the equipment now I, sold it. I. Use my graduate from High School. And I. Not too late to bring it back in Get back. Too. Many hobbies now you know it's like and then you know you how to answer. which is a good segue into like lifestyle. So what did change from junior college to been college? College. So how did I get into this? So I am the m very friendly and never meet a stranger in is just kind of. I kind of got tired of. People being like, Hey, how come you didn't tell me you're doing X. or Y., or whatever. So I formed a group of friends on. APP facebook? And we have brunch together in things like that, and then they were like, oh, you should start posting about the things that you eat in the thing that you know is going to be interested in that but I would try in see I. Love lured errands travel like she was saying earlier. Grenadas Maria. Molly. Molly Molly was saying earlier. I. Really Am very a small businesses have a special place in my heart. So when I go out I just really like the focus on small businesses youthful seeing because like my model is life is too short to eat bland food and I really enjoy. Trying different things in just just the whole food experience like mood is low. You said that earlier in literally food is low so I just really enjoy. Traveling is big Artemije life while right now but I am going to Colorado in a few weeks. So I went actually earlier this year and I'm going to go back in a few weeks with my mother. That's my best travel park. And then after that is your friend but undeniable victim but I'm willing to Colorado. We're GONNA JUST Fun. RJ. Much I love Food I. Love Beer. Had I get into beard so Go. Figure out. You know making economically worth exent inexpensive right cell I was like. To so I'm listening to Texas by myself. I'm originally from New York I grew up in Mississippi I moved there when I was thirteen and I've lived in Texas since I was twenty is in Moved here because I wanted to make more money in I was kind of at a point with my job that I couldn't get any higher. So I was like I'm going to move to Texas Eddie know anybody at inhabit jar I just saved money in, apply at and thank God I got a job right before I moved but it was a job but any little bit extra money to kind of make things me. So I started to be a brand ambassador in did for why and then I met my friend Sherry is she introduced me to being a brand ambassador for beer and I drink beer. Beer was bud light bud light tastes like just water. So I was like I don't want. If you don't pay me to sell his beer almost steering wheel. I found the world here. Yeah. Yeah. I found the world of craft beer in so. That's how me as you were friends and I was working festival craft beer festival needed help. I was like, Hey, you wanna make some money. Story. So. That's how she got into craft beer in So our craft like you'll hear me referenced her a lot because she's my sister we're not blood related, but she's my sister in our journey. We do a lot of we traveled together. She was over here last night we were drinking black youthful together. So that's like my best my sister mccracken sisters so. We got. I heard the story would. But that's how it happened. She started doing Brandon Ambassador in now I've Kinda chilled out in a more focused on look at she is she's my dear friend. I love it. We have our lanes and we support each other. Because together. As White. Met You guys. Now is a fun time. As much as much as we talk about freshman. Whole meeting people outside of the people that we were working interviewing I. got this blur like round. I guess I was drinking. Our drove but I remember. They say they. Joke. How Ron Remember Dad. must've, been worse than. Robbing Iota and. I was about to say I must've came when I when my general admission pats. Album. Came in. Coffee with drag out of ages glass right okay. No The beauty of fresh fest was dead just meeting all of the people. Like seeing people that looked like you that are into beer passionate about it in this Rozelle look like lays. I I fell in love I'll. Be In. An only have like a really nice community here in. Texas. So that's fun as well. So. Now you said, you're from New York what part of New York you from Queens? Oh. Unhappy Making an in half American my mother was born in Jamaica moved here when she was a child that I'm from long. Island Ma I consider myself a southerner. Thirteen Mississippi. necessarily. Do Things Toy Keane in your thirteen Mississippi twelve years of New York and in Texas so she. Southerners inner as. A bunch I thought she was only twenty. Eight years. Now I'm thirty. I'll be thirty, seven this year I'm proud of my age. On crack. Yeah you. True she is GonNa all. Know similar. I piggy earlier. You said You love stoute's you love stoute's what do you? What's your favorite pairing like food and Beer Perry? Okay. So stout swear my direction have their glass north coast familiar non. So. Own. Well that was my first like beer that I fell in love with and I just love stoute's my favorite beer parry. Is. IS IN LIKE A. Light Beer like. Disarray. Good Yeah five missed. Like a fried chicken with like a nice wit beer like I love anything citrus like said that earlier me well was. Eleven. Point six. Alcoholic warns us. Labor is overbearing. Kacha. More than I've ever had I. WanNa Haters Blueberry because you also he said he'd dumping blueberries and. Your margins. A So. By the way that label that is the my by so my boss, John? Falco. Before I even got into brewing because prior prior to becoming being a brewer. I was a someone to near Oh man. Many. WHO was. Great was you know my body and I i. Met I was a civil engineering. She was doing the she just she had just started digital marketing. She was actually a med school. One day she goes hey, would you hate me if I quit medicine I was like Do. Civil. Engineer. Goes like I I WANNA become I wanNA do digital marketing. Over. So I gave her timeline was. Six months. Find Vinik line. The Motivation. To they start chasing clients on reaching out to people under US all other guests. So, now turn around we got married in March of eighteen. Nineteen twenty nine Nike and I should propose I actually proposed to her in spring fest in all we went to spring fest in Germany and I propose or Improv. Across. The Back of that Budapest. It doesn't. It doesn't matter to city if you took her to Europe or. So. My. Ill. Winter for honeymoon we hit. We hit a prog Belgium and I told her GonNa let. You WanNa, go and then we went as she's like I don't like. I. Told you. Rosa. Come full circle. You know like John we we we had a very good relationship 'cause he was one of my supporters during the that Saint Jude's saying that I put on and you know I've been going to the beard for such. A long time might actually got married at Lincoln Beer and this is Araya. So me even get a job as rural like. Good friends with John S we ask them if we ran out the MEZZANINE. Or compare man, he goes only gonNA officiate elect. So. So he actually officiated our wedding I. That was in March, and then in June he was like, I, want you to be the rural restaurant in opt-out. And then now actually brewing strange and you know not the best of salary jumps from. So engineer to roller. I got. right And I'm sure Ryan seacrest is listening. So here he come with every other show. Ask. That that's. Reality. Show. more. American, idol but yeah, that's. Who Do Judy on That is. So. Natalie is John's daughter okay. And she john during during like if you have seen In, the beginning of the year so Like January early the last week of December. The the there was like a split in in Lincoln's bureau doors there used to be sectors. And John and todd the to started strange beasts they you know there was there was always a splint rose arguing always like they couldn't really design being. So there was one day that John Left and or like he left the meeting US sitting at a bar and he texted todd a, you know if you WANNA meet year for a drink for it's off on here todd went there and then that's how strange visas form they sat down there they decided the concept of this group of they wanted to be in. West Kendall they wanted to bring something out here. Because like there's much. and. They split from like they still remained owners but the had no like decision on a face. So they went, they started strange beasts the Lincoln started to suffer, and then they came back they bought out the rest of the owners from Lincoln's beard. Goes. By John, like Valco like Lincoln's Beatles actually his baby. You know what I mean like he actually start that burry yet. So. I was only bring a strange from June to December and then when they went back, they bought out Lincoln's the end of the year I started brewing with at Lincoln's because we have though production facilities are. In like the first week of January, I met with Danny might might go growth and so you know like how was out candidate year because? The the last time that they have cameras in August and then the before that overly I think they can one more time earlier in the year twenty nineteen but I wasn't really sure how many times they had can. And he's like You know it's not really like a priority would just ruin like get beers on tap and. You know we're we're brewing for a fifteen top system at Lincoln's Inn for eight twelve step system of our strange. So. We. We were kind of like Oh. We'll location of recorder. Can once in a while. coveted. It was only type thing. So everybody started you know moving in, you know we don't have a candidate so we have to reach out to iron hearts to set a date so they can come through him again from the we went from. The I, the concept of canning four times a year to gaining four times like two months you know. So we were just basically Bruin to canned beer sobek and. had been due to go sales so. This long roundabout stories the basically the fact that we had like a warranty selection of labels because we government we paid up artist. So to do anything. So it's just like a color like each different beer would be color and and like a blue collar with caution tape on the bottom and you know coming out, of Order Dean John You know John is still doing most of the label's himself but there's three coming out tomorrow that one I'm not really a big fan of. And so we're actually tomorrow releasing our oldest buzzer again that's a German style bills were releasing. The constitutional right raspberry. Lime Sour. Not Exactly. It's so. You know you know the carrots and the child's rally. So the actual, the actual I it right is a Karen like screaming with. These days. uh-huh. I'll triple eight triple here. As well. But yeah. So so you know John John wanted to move away from the single color labels. E he told his daughter he's like, Hey, I want I want you to draw label I. Want I WanNa feature your art on. On our labels and that's why you know it's pointing like hey I'm not elite. DOGS DAUGHTER WHO Zeidler? How old is she? She is young. She's like see eight six. Twenty three. Out of a story. Out Be pissed. Land. Art Class you were cutting cops. I'm Natalie done twenty-three like get Outta here. No coffee. Just. Never that thing like she just it's. So, might the place that I enjoyed the most was Italy. I WANNA go back. So this year so the pack has the issue on. So is branded. He was talking about Japan in the beer seen in Japan. L. Philosophy in Japan in. October. ME. When you were talking about the beer sta like NGOs like all you need to listen up you know she's on. Can you listen for the beer things Larry knew that like we had it on itinerary and she wasn't interested in growing lately, just linked to an Asian country she wanted to go somewhere different and so when she had that, she was like oh I wanna go. Away did so we're just GONNA die next year but Italy the food the wine it was bad is my favorite country most funding was We went. Knew new more focused now on food. Pairings. So, I'm more focused on food and with quarantine I've been doing a series called quarantine in cleaning out my stash 'cause. I have a lot of stout that I just collect people give me because they love me and as just in cleaning out mustache not season. So that's been fine but I really don't pair my bureau it's Nice is there separate? Do a lot of cooking. Do you do a lot of cooking? On smiling. All The kitchen you keep kitchen real HGTV. Clean. Also I live by myself. So it's like cooking all this food for me I don't know listen. For yourself but okay. So here's what I do I go to Mississippi ally especially now that can't travel ashes go to my Parents House instead on Sofa. So when I go home, I could get my parents house I love it 'cause like have all this food they yeah making eat it. So I love cooking I, go home in vain joy obviously but yeah, I can't cook I don't really like cooking. Or flight. A six hour drive. No. That's from US six hours. Or you waiting like. Your. Hard drive. So that's that's reasonable. Limits when you go to Japan next year I will we'll talk. Okay listen. can Eri I'm cleaner. So yeah, it's been not. Ready. What we should do a podcast in. Japan. I. WanNa Japan. Sounds like we are. Taking tread every two years my mother actually she's my favorite this very quick lengthy. We take a trip. Every two years of people were like Oh like dollar like you're having so much fun. We WanNA come. So starting bringing people the last trip we went to Thailand. Two years ago in not was it was ten of us and we had an amazing time. So this was every two years. So we're supposed to go to Japan. So. But yet every two years, it's just a bunch of commitments take a trip in. Coffee I'm noticing that you keep picking Asian countries in undeniable victim says, she doesn't like Asian countries are you? Jessica, she didn't WanNa do it to another one? She had been you WANNA. Try some. Taiwan two years ago in. Thailand Thailand. country. Another Asian our. Country's wildlife made like location. Of Highland. Was My choice ended with so many people that went last time I had them pick we voted and I didn't vote on purpose because I wanted to go to the action in the magazine his since I didn't vote. Happy. About it. Be would have went to Greece so either way but they're like, why didn't you wrote our? How so how many of you guys in this whole voted out about? These trips or you don't WanNA carry. Yeah. So What are your traveling east? Got The have many numbers. Right. Words were more than I do. Under friendly I'm very. Very source fall I. think that's the best way to put like people know that it needs something. Amu- nine. Oh Yeah. Like Figure it out. Yeah. We'll figure it out I. Know someone that knows someone it. I'm very respectful for. A title Asian or do I wanna be but I, just like I really enjoyed bring mind like looking up stuff like Yo. Flights, there's like you know you know round trip is looking at like six hundred. You can't beat that like who's with me who want to jump on it. How Holy Lady. You. Know it open to anyone, but the only thing is Why says? What happens what happens at these trips? I decided On. going. To be ready for the. OR G. A.. You gotta get up the. Interest. To anyone any age but I prefer like if we all messed together well, because there's nothing worse than paying your money being on a trip in not having fun because you have someone on the trip that. Downer is about. So she says. Can. But here's. For tune in my face to send them out like you just kick out. You. Own the. Twenty five people say they're GONNA go. But when I don't consider anybody a growing until you buy your airlines. Yeah. Everyone wants Oh had to pick twelve hundred dollars thousand about Stutter-. Light Gel. Love of. Reply. I. See how how did you decide? You want to do civil engineering again, I I, guess I should. Not. So before I get to that. This. This is a four of the altogether that did okay. Fine. View. Right. Yeah yeah that was. The other half love. It's it's actually funny. You know when when and I, I started dating she. She started doing the food blogging thing and everything and you know I would go with her to restaurants. So you know while she was like talk chefs honors while she was you know like taking pictures and all that stuff I'm sitting there. So my thumbs waiting to eat because. Y'All, you brought me love for food I'm here for like let's. Go. So you know that there was a there was one restaurant that it was in brickell that they're actually sat say not open anymore but. I was trying some groovy beers and I was like you know I could actually get at this point has already ends. Craft. Beer. And all the I could actually really get into this all taking pictures blogging, writing Bob Beers and stuff like Mahdi does so with. So I just started doing that that's. Thirsty Samurai Biggie came about I started you know reaching out to places every time we travel without reach out to reason I would. Go into a tour you know start writing and go off and you know little by little it starts reason. I got my a last year I got my BJP. Recognized JCP. I also got a mobile to Sarong. ooh. You can ask. Okay man it's you know like I talk about the food and the beer I actually have several being that are so and that's something that I wanna do now like you know when restrictions are. leased. Listen. To stuff at Lincoln's. With with the beers that were putting out. And yelm that's really how I got into its honestly because. I went from, you know being someone's near and like you if. I think about it like this if like monty and I had never met a on that day of I, never whatever they've never start dating. She never liked took that leap of going from Med school to digital. Marketing. I would rather be sitting behind the August. Those mannix and all that stuff i. I did home here and there but nothing about like. Oh, you know I could do this for a living. So you really changed. Right I did. How did you get your name? Was My next question? got. Shipping Oh. So So. So. Low a before. I started Beatles I did actually wear clothes while Iraq. I I I I race I ever did was a five. Five K obstacle course race that we have here at the we had at the binding. Mitchell's who And three friends of mine we dressed up as the like they bought me shirt 'cause like we're GONNA run it together, and we just three little pigs. I was out biggie three. I had the pink shirt I you know it was very uncomfortable but I was wearing like a pig nose and they gave a little figures that. Heads. and. I wore that for maybe. Like I a love you know, I fell in love with with I was already into running but I fell in love with obstacle course racing after that event. And I like I. Did like maybe two or three more races and then one of my best friends that he lives up like three hours north of Miami. He I saw him. He was the he was known as the OC are because he would wear nothing but a speedo in panda hat. So. We came, we actually became handed piggy because we would travel. The United States will offer races together. And where nothing was Speedo so It was funny because those one race that he was gonNA come down big ended up getting sixth back. You bailed on it. He Goes Yours beautiful for me. I'm like, all right I have one. Lying around somewhere. So I. I ran the race and then the rest was history. So I was I was the OCR piggy for a while but there what like this was maybe six months or so after those, it was another race that was doing I was wearing a I was already in the Speedo an egg like the pig lander. Anti. Taken off my hat real quick and you know I mean I. Thou- but I have a I used to help man Bun. Like my hair was pretty fucking long. Y- when I took it off there was. Other forget those move that lost by he goes. There may universite rybeck. Yeltsin that's a fucking. that. was was like I had a based off just dedicated, running and Mike. My also Do Fun facts on type one diabetic I've been diabetics was day to. And I. Actually Am in Remission at cancer back in twenty twelve. Got The thyroid cancer, but still got scar. And Yes oh, thirsty like Sam ripe. I used to have a pages dedicated but I was you know putting some assignments thirty right Peggy Diet just. Close the other page. But yet likes. Samra thirsty. biggie. Just came from the drinks united. I didn't want to like. You know put a chokehold on my on. What I will drain. So I, just ended up by beers big year arnold or anything like that. Just just thirsty. Eat. All inclusive of all drinks. It. The Mahdi's dealer. If I'm not I'm not like you don't have to follow me on facebook, but like it's a great another little story. Miami we went to. Last year. As a as media as media representatives for you know for our ages and stuff and when I was standing in line, and this is the story I'm talking I guess when I was standing in line at Black Project. Jesse James, was there the the the owner of the brewer? He I walk up to the do of such a big Fan I. Love Your Beers like all the wilds you put our fucking. Amazing. And he looked at my name tag he goes I. Know You and. Rural a friend of Marco from. US You creatures and like like we've talked. Slightly here and there, and he goes none not not work know your from. Your facebook right. Means as a that's me. Mahdi roller is so hard. Like, a bazillion they're like posting. And she's just like I'd also like to reproduce. Okay. That's. All that's on my kids zone. I. Have That means like. Did Your Mommy and is the guy sliding on the Go would you be Lebanese late? was there any beer grown up around the your family? So I I was actually born and raised here Miami. I have been Lebanon like a bunch of time. So it's it's you know it was cool down my parents you know kept that. took his back and like let us have that connection with you know where they were both run from. And you know there is the Mazda that's the that's like the most known beer and Lebanon is a real interesting place because you know the civil war that broke out in the eighties that was between the the the Christians of Lebanon and the the Muslims of Lebanon. So. You know depending on where you go. You know there's very Muslim abortion very Christian Ocean but in the downtown center, what what's fucking beautiful is that you know there's a mosque, a synagogue and a church all all in the same vicinity three different corners of that downtown center. So. While there is. A lot of racism. But between the between the religions between the people, you know the the war broke out so. My parents there they were. You know the the Haitians are like a very big family in Lebanon. And while we are of the, you know Shiite Muslim religion like we weren't really strict or practicing so. I I was raised like a normal. Eric at any terms of the science. So like I eight Pepperoni Pizza, you know my my dad, he would drink budweiser stuff. I think one of the best things that that I, could you know like that really gave me a sense of pride was for the give data four back some of the beers we have been canning and the first year that he picked up. Was the through check pills that we did with old OX. And he goes. I Love I love doing is. A check buzzer and my little sister, he was all remember Brooke. Cracked it open he took that to the facie finished share with. Things like. I actually worked for my Dad, my dad's a civil engineer as well. I worked for my dad like that's that's why like from two thousand, seven to two, thousand and nineteen I was working there. And you know I sat down. Is probably one of the hardest face. Off Dad You, know like. I did get a job offer and I just wanted to give like a month notice. You know like I'm gonNA become going to be a brewer. Egos. Residue. That's the best. Couple years later, he drinks the beer for father's Day. because. You know what now now you can talk about. Once, you make it in whatever you decide to do different from what they have in their vision or their mind. Talking about the. Money is that by parents also told me Campos pictures because there's family in Lebanon that are GonNa see me on my speedo. Over. Yeah it was it was. You know it wasn't really. So my dad actually stayed through the civil war and. It was funny. So he you know he was about to go to college. And the colleges Lebanon very like high class kind of places. So it's like you've got to know someone to get in. And they are the ones that were prominent like they didn't have that many connections. So he applied to Ucla Lsu and Um and he said whatever I hear back from I that's Goto on it just happened to be Um so a backers bags in a game became over here mom any of those cities gross open, any of those cities today got except the I. I could have been a colleague. Over Louisiana. Would have been a completely different story. All Right and doing my my dad, he actually had a during the civil war. So he's so he's a big car guy again he's like. Yeah. You know growing up I have this this three Arabs I'm really. Change the first couple times like why did you get three? He goes row they kept using my car's fucking cover during the war. So that's a new. Best. Yeah actually had Like. It's crazy. How like just any other particular ish or movement you make my grandpa might grandfather is was either as well. He was sitting on his balcony and a sniper shot and it raises. was just an inch backwards, he would have been. My Dad data rocket flight into his room that didn't explode. Oh. They got the fuck out of the house like it just it just never it just never done. What did you? into. It just went into. You woke up. The. Great. So, you know like he he stayed through the whole war and then he came here for call my mom, her family had left before the before the war I started and they just. America. Yeah Yeah. They actually so my mom. And my dad was at Um and you know like I the. I. Feel like there's a lot of Lebanese people everywhere. 'cause they're fucking Jack Rabbits. And There's always there's always a sense of community like with. These people. So my dad actually started the the UN Lebanese chapter of people and. A friend of a friend you know new both by a mutual friend between my parents of the new, both of them men they knew that my mom was singled in doubt single Salt Lake he's like Oh you're going to be. raised. Some by was the Cuban. And that's that's how they met in. You know they they've been together since it's a on the oldest of four. All right. Veers completely. Completely of beer topic and you know you your great storyteller. So, what is Your Perspective Warrior Parents Perspective of what recently happened in terms of that explosion in embrace ruined Or? What your so. We are actually. So that's why I wanted to I was going to do the blackest beautiful giveaway I but then the Lebanon thing happened. So I was GONNA push that. Not that black is beautiful like any less important than new stained by my mom is actually leaving to Lebanon. To go deliver supplies and Stuff and I, wanted to. Do that you know for what happened with that 'cause I did have family that were hurt in the. and. It's honestly like I wish I could say anything different was just a huge oversight and it just stupidity on the yet fart. Whenever you deal with chemicals and you deal with them not being protected or that's why they say just from nuclear like nuclear missiles or anything like that s stop has to be under. The most stringent surveillance. Like in the middle of the city kind of thing like. I. It was out of port and. For whatever reason you know that slugging Lebanon ever fires long is. A. Law. That and that's why like there. There's always conspiracy theories by essentially what happened was that there was there like something went wrong. The factors start start exploding and people for years have been telling the government. Hey. Move this. You know five eight away from right anything around running this area because. Is. Exactly. What's going to happen and? That's why that's. That's how that's like an explosion happened. That, the the boss fate. Bugging exploded that much. So. It was A. A wild because I was I was actually not bad. Then by my phone real quick on Voile and then I saw that immediately call my parents on my y'all you guys gonNA contact with whomever over Lebanon No. Check on the family. And we did I did have a distant cousin that asked. I didn't I. I never really had like contact with them. It was it was on my mom's Family Bot. I did have a couple of like for the most part you know like not allow people of their of my family were in the vicinity of the area. So you know allow ramification. But what I did have some family that ended up in hospital and. It was a very dumb oversight and that's why a lot of the the government has been resigning. Due on blood. Revenue. Sure coming. Oversight Words especially when you've been warned, it could have been prevented. On. But I think also that they were getting paid like just leave it there. So that's why they did ask. Now GonNA come back to. The coffee in terms of the food depart-. Like, so. What are your? What is your favorite like favorite dish I would've you enjoy like do you are you big brunt person? Are you a big? Brent Person On So my friend actually recently she's like list your favorite restaurant I don't have. My favorite dish I don't, but because I eat to eight so much good. attended begins of narrow. Kind of yeah. kind of become like a food snob a little bit in you. It's because like I eat a lot of really good Lizzo. It's like when someone's like Oh this is delicious I'm like Oh, it's okay. Editor on. Point coffee like do you get like extremely excited about? It might not be like, okay. Let me let me use me as an example like I. Truly. Tie. ooh. ADEMA snacker Yari Noah is usually I'm like. Clear my pantry. My wife was like. Going with you. I love food. So like have. So I like basil like Rice. A rice is like a major thing like this in our seven days A. Week. We eat is usually like five to six days rice. Wouldn't I don't really know what classified itchy. With Rice. Well from Virginia. Okay South Carolina North Carolina Digi. Data Rice, the Rice Patty A. So. Like so you guys know from just you know obviously back you know single two mile like I'm my background is Mexican and black but so like rice is huge in eddie cuisine we eat. So burrito Rice Chinese rice. Thai rice, we rice with just about anything So like that to that point drops point is. Like, is it a like a of a art cuisine like you usually incorporate into something tweet? Okay. So my favorite cuisine is Asian food since. I like Rahman and I really enjoy try. Yeah. I really enjoy trying different types of Robin but to answer your question why specifically tackles? Anita. Putting Tacos so I actually like. The erling La Saliba is. Higher I don't. Own. Door. Council deserve a lot of around here at the different TACO trucks. Can't man. Thought about trying it but then I'm. Sure. I'll think it's Okay. That does it right you got. Children batch is not to be done. Right? Back. So you are southern. You've definitely kid. Chilin if you love. I eating them on a long long long time, but you know. But in also message you called Your Life Tacos is like it's not uncommon to have. You know that is like that kind of. The delicacy will when I go to. Adrian's. Former student we go to her Mexican, the Mexican cookouts like we have like the the beef and whatever the own goal who's on the actual Taco his. Tongue and. He's got those he's got that good old you know. There on he's and I'm like yours high sauce on their dress it up. So. His trait. Oh. Come on. Dude is delicious. That's right. So we rab is that an angry glass? Adrian. The subject. Alison faster but no. So that's another thing I released right? Try is the lining of the intestine. is a great cow. Cow. Doesn't make a lot of fucker. Talk. If he offers. Everything on animal. That's. That's all. I really enjoy a trying things that are unique and different. So you'll really like goof. Up focused like. Bizarre. WE'RE GONNA? have. Off. Zimmerman. It was. Only. Because impaling redid try bugs and it wasn't bad. Carlin talked about triumph bugs right when he was on his trip international was A. Tall. Wherever, you're going to eat the bugs in Detroit I. Want to try the right way. To Cure Lear and. TRAVEL TRAVEL trip. Over there Miami. Miami Miami. Grasshopper tacos. Ours High. Don't. And Grasshopper's. That's about. The project they actually actually the most. It's don't sustainability. Grasshopper is good though they said it in terms of stability. In, a form Miami Florida. And anywhere. Food Great Grasshoppers, that that. They use. More like a Basan raised or whatever. These grasshoppers who are. Be. Certain things to make sure that the. So was funny as the Mahdi's actually Nicaraguan and she. In her words not mine she says that she couldn't believe that I guess Jewish Nicaragua when I first met her because she says the most other Nicaragua's are ugly. So It my first ultra marathon was in Nicaragua's visiting Baragua, actually more times than Mighty House Oh s. On telling her this Gago your Nicaraguan she goes onto guess that I've been I've been there like all times she goes not have stopped trying to get into my pants. So the the ultra marathon that Iran was on the island in the middle of Lake Nicaragua. And I ran up and down both the volcanoes are on island. And I got though like as memory of my first ultra marathon open up to that world I got those will not do it on my side. And I'm telling her the story, she's like. Just trying to get to my pants now look I although because. He's actually. Around the world. Bank Appears. Are the. Bail longer that. Thirty Cents Right. Drink during dated right. He wants to get in my pants deal. Oh My. God Nicaraguan women ain't that ugly. Go over and. He'd been a lot. He'd a lot. So he knew that. They were ugly. So knew that that's not a true fan. He was another round that was another flake already. been a new Nicaragua, a couple of times I ten seven. been. Before. So I've been there five times. Oh, each time I went just like for the racist stay there like a week or so to travel and explore. Poultry. That's actually I write. Those UH Yeah actually actually a delicacy there. You go around here like if you got call ahead because they'll make in the morning, but it'll be gone by like eleven. So you gotTa tell me you gotTa call it a lingua and then no, tell me what it is. I finish. Think. Yeah I know now. So now knowing that. You Know Ringo. On this real chewy to two times that I've had it it was. Cooker today saying yeah that's saying. I will try to the right way you radio this also. Out of the most kind of bizarre eats where everybody kind of going around like I'll go first but you guys share feel free to share like what is the kind of bizarre each did you Kinda tribe I think my to most bizarre was was was was like a barbecue or like a Asian fusion lights frog leg in Austrian. Those were kind of my. You. Know that was actually. Those are delicious year at Boca those. So those are kind of my to kind of wild panic eighty. You don't Cook at on some of you guys. S cargo. Regarding our go. Once delicious. These snails and that's carved out. What about you? Yoda Iraq? Crocodile. All maybe. Crocodile. It is. Other words call fat Rix and it was served like crocodiles strips a crocodile. It was lifts now one Tom Laws Jamaica I swear eight will shit Roy we'll shit yeah. Is that any Grant. Crab Shit must've? Mustard. was. You'll it was like it was spread on a piece of bread, right? So everything. Maybe. Think it was well, it was dark right law sitting around at. Eight Welsh it. Out. Is. because. It was Brown and was sprayed on his piece of breed, right? Okay. So you. FISHIES. I had ever had in my entire Labor What are you? Talking. It was so bad I. was sitting at. I, I cut a piece wearing body to make them. Funny. Why do we sat? One stuff is discussed. Is Good. In some sticky, but I smell it. She's not as. Company. Misery. You go has over this boy. Those Alex. Smell, I don't. Smell it was it was a strange. Everybody said the same thing they were like what is that? It had to be in other things I thought it was salty because the wellbeing salt water and I was just thinking like, oh, this guy sounds like, oh, patrick it's other. Yeah. Pets, I don't like it either. Again I figure defend reckless. Salty. Like Super Saudi to the point where I can eat him like. The black. Lab. Soup that's your home. That's your home by beautiful. Madi in my. Behind he's Gotten. Like. What what would you consider like? Everybody else I was so weird food that you've had right. Because I've been writing down if they came to my mind. Kangaroo in Australia. Was I don't want any further. Yes. Let's start right. there. So we were at a food market. Okay. So first of all the food in Australia's not. when we were there, we a literally agency because they have a huge Asian population in federal there I love eating food burglary. We saw a huge. Huge Asian like we were so surprised but anyway. So we a lot of Asian food but I try kangaroo and it was really good it. You know they say it tastes like chicken like into. It was good. We were. How was it cook? It was FRY OCHRE was fried and it was very it was a very juicy. One it was seasons while though is nothing to. Hannah thrive on. Finch batter. And my grill but Brit battered. I'll be honest I don't know if it was. But it was done. I would eat it again, I'll stay. It wasn't a bad experience Kello Castle catering Australia. Hostile New. I'm. Sorry I think. State like Muskrat impossible huge ideals. Or City, they use the cash. Quick Young. City. Right. On the. Little you know. Remember the first time and this same. This is no shave because I, know our wise the podcast I remember to on my way and met. Adrian's MOM's grandmother. They had that Thanksgiving they had that. that. Whole likes. Ellison. Do. I. Do. For me. Say. Wouldn't eat must have hit a baby positive. But I don't even see the skeletal. Turned me off even more like. This. Like this. And everything. Muskrat Iraq I don't know what that is. Out there. I don't want them the whole. This is what we're. Just. Don't eat it. Up and put them up late. I'm okay. So I'll. Duck liver or for how do you say for long? Nasty. Liver. To I. Love. Peppers and onions on gravy but. The duck liver is kind of it's real is different or I'd like a pasty type of thing. Because like tasty taste. Burger before. It was the burger was good altogether I didn't eat the Gras by itself I just. Knew and like in the south we dear so. Liza. Dear Jerky Texas. Jerky in Texas. Beer so This. The boat. SNEER sausage I'd had deer sausage had like. Cobra or some type of snake. River Jersey. At a beer festival jerky. Word again now. You're. Probably. Wrong. Did. You eat it and not knows knee jerk. I just, WANNA snake tramp out in front of my garage. You know I'm a thing. For you. Okay. So Do. So I, have had both of Y'all had higher had muskrat awesome or. The or, kangaroo but. I have had I'm just GonNa Rattle Rattlesn-, shut off I've had shark. Or? Pause. A horse. So I was I was staying at a friend's. Bike rides. And Horse to go. They don't believe in wasting anything. Saw The the put it down and then they cut it up. It's it's. It's very game like what theories is very. Is Very. Game. Like I read this, I, read this. After the fact they're like y'all donate a tourist that like increase, your red blood cell count and that's not good. No. One's good. I don't have to have it again. WAS THE SHARKS STATE It was like a shark fillet or. Search Dan in in Lebanon was I went to Scotland and I had. That actually wasn't bad like for. It's like. Right. So they, they take out the they cook it in the intestines I believe and they've put in the liver the. Stomach and they put my liver and all. The stuff that people don't want, right. Right yeah. Animal animal's this sheep. That's big in Scotland like she. will but that sounds bad. Hundred two in how? The. original. DIMICCO like Popeye. Like Fried Haggas, balls which. You fry anything something. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE Don't. Like side. Already or you're out after scooped, Nano? They cook everything to get the stuff and destruction. I believe they cook it in the stomach and they just. Bring it all out to you you're. I think. We is it though I I will say like Lebanon in Lebanon that's. A lot of my experiences with like kind of weird or food I guess. I did. That's the first time I had US cargo over there. I time goes over there. That's the first time I had actually I have both bull. And Bull Penis that they conduct. Rocky Mountain Oysters. Oysters and do there's actually really good. All nuts. Really how? Do they served it? Just the brain is. Yeah. I would. You like you. New. Novels or Any no live. Babies. Eyeballs eight. Waist nothing. But I. Think I think one of the most horrifying experiences I've ever had. was. I'm a child on like ten or eleven years old and my my brother he's nine. So we have a two year difference. And we're at a goat farm like we go farm or like, Hey, look at these dotes. Goal fucking. Goats Lego that's fucking. Logos pick one. Big Related. Guide wrapped fucking go. into the next like like from the field and so like this little house ambro heeds I watched this man cut off this fucking go I was my mark goes my mom I was hey, why you're old goats screaming and there she goes Oh, come on come watch. I walk in and I'm like. I'm going to tear you. I was I should bleed out this little the floor of. Out. I I walk out I'm like, yeah, I can't. I can't watch this I walk outside and then they literally carved up the meat right there and then from that little house that the that little bloodshed. Right and look where where they cook the fucking goat the. Seeing I've seen chicken. Chicken killed in Virginia. In the whole goal. Hold on. He went in there thinking that goes on Khan as heck. Go. Kill, them like. He. Dog. The question so For Dinner, she didn't. Want. For Dinner. Those fucking. Deliver. RUN NEXT DOOR? kind of stuff in Texas though because I saw one documentary where they sneak up on a go because they say if the or the meat if it scared, do some at something. They jump out on. Instantly. There's that they don't discreet whatever you know like. Chemical reactions. You know. As. A story, a short version of the story is I when I used to record in Cali California and I used to go to the studio at nighttime I went to just a Chinese place and I was you know when you go to the studio I wanted to get some like some soup or whatever, and I swear his Chinese restaurant I. got this Stu. I swear to you it. It had to be some off brand beef or like dog. Because when I tasted that beef stew. I literally. LANC almost earl. I've got it back to the studio I. Walked to it. I walked to the place. Got The speed still went back to the verse. I. Don't even taste the me might the Bra and everything it was just I was like this is. Dishes. Is Only. Like a you know what? I talked to my brother was like Yo I was like I wasn't imagining things and literally remember actually when I was going to walk into the place. The owners has some leashes in their hand. Tell You I. Know that people you know have said it and I'll. Watch National Geographic. About this year like. I was in Oakland like. Like did that was some foreign? Money. Doug and China I mean. So it's not a good definitely. Aren't though. Right. Yeah. Customers. By. Listening On. My whole omen. House spicy do you guys like to go on food? I, like spicy with flavor. In. I've had some. Indian food. fucking. Tastes good but burn diverse. I'm going to the extreme of hot like when schools belt school bells was my. Family restaurant off of School Bell Road Forty. Used to have. They have like fire drill wings like on. Yeah Yeah. All you can eat. Wings it was right. Paper no more. Blind. or or the wall or the wall. This. Everyone give their number. Tin. GimMe that spy. Extreme. Like I do I have to agree the flavors. Is like. y'All know that show out wings, right So member going my friend did by that Dr Fifty seven hour that hot sauce ditsy. So me like you look at me when I eat lunch like dude I grab all the Haas's the fridge and I'm Boring Olive Shits on food. But The. Mad Dog for the seven that's just straight extract and it tastes like chemical. So. I, tried it. Due to turn my stomach and it didn't like had zero flavor just as the latest rate is that. What they? Sauce, again because I I'm not gonNA put myself through something worse not even. A. Eight eight chocolate reaper. Dude I was talking so much shit I, three minutes, and then it hit and then I was like. Like everybody around me was saying that I actually handled a lot better they expect me to. Your aid it I swallowed it, and then I was. I've. BEEN AWESOME DO. Guys. There are three videos. The first one was me saying like Oh, this is the bedroom and eat the second one me eating swallowing it and in talking to the guy who grew by Brahma Yo grow spicier peppers. Bra. is instantly. Am I is getting watery. Running and that's it. It's so fast. I was like about Noah. Come out either for fifteen twenty minutes. I, I lost five pounds in in one night. I ate that mortgage dog Aribert s like that. Coming out. I didn't get the idea get that spicy comeback after came out. But like I will say that like I pete in like three or four minutes, and then it took me like another five to six minutes for it to come down. newscaster. We're out the beard. So I was just like yoga me loggers giving fucking. So after about ten minutes, you were good. Die The ten minutes was I was like a span. Of. The hurt. And Limelight. Then then my is like there were seated. So like being stop tearing off like. To the. The, whole span of the thing. labor overheat I can be. Much. Much more. Off I mean I I've had a lot of Indian food. Some of it is flavorful, but there's some that just hot for. I'm not I. can't go y'All said the ten I'm like five and six. Like. I'm all about those those fire waves amount of give me that challenge Bro. See. Robot. Body can take. These have nine or one wings and you have the Sino over waiver. Just. Give you free wings and put a picture on the wall like it wasn't enough. Deficit, yes, it is. You I don't know I. Guess you ain't different. College and then you know and not empty I guess is kind of one. You start. Kind of like you off Rama noodles in you know like anything you can get hands on college but then you know as you grow you like Shit I. Think. Those firehouse rings like how like what was the time span? How many ways were there? So they will come in twelve or the wings I was eating. and. Like I said I mean I was I was crushing them joints. I I don't I don't. Know How narrow spice is. Out there every week, the mole was it was a family thing and everybody challenge. Air Everybody was like Yo you come in, you need you to dog person. Defended the title? Wall somewhere. Hell No. Safar. Did the twelve did that was like a one city? Timespan or it's just like as long as. As. Long as you ain't the twelve wings in an inner city gate table. Coffee, you said, you said you like Rahman, what's your favorite type of Robin. Russell. So show so you. Get to be a little bit creamy. There was someone posted a Cajun Rahman and it's in Houston Jose style so good Cajun Rahman. Out. The VER. I WANNA try that but I'm going to have to see there somewhere here but I'm planning on going down like next month but Hayden, sounds of the ally Raymond I also like fried chicken around me I like a negative. I love marinated eggs like. But. I. Think you do want to go to Houston I watch ugly delicious Rahman because it's such a big Asian culture in Houston that Rahman is the open air because came name other delicious on. Netflix he he wanted he went to because he was talking about new, Orleans, and Houston. David. David Chiang he went from A lot of people doing hurt the hurricane Katrina Katrina. From Louisiana for New Orleans to Houston, they stayed there in an open a lot of rahman shops and stuff like that. The population dope their. Coffee fucking. said that prominent you mentioned what? What was it called? What she what's what's it called again, and what makes you like that? Why is it your favorite? Show you because it's creamy anything creamy like multi beer because it's creamy. The anything that has a little bit of cream inist to it's just that my palate a geared towards it. So I love it 'cause it's a little bit creamy. I, love really, Rahman, as long as delicious I like soup so I really like. Move. For me. Baby. Froze burning deliverance difference so far is Vietnamese and Rahman is Japanese soup and then there's also like Soba noodles I don't really care for. But those are way too big they. Live. As a ghetto question when you eating ramen from the top Ramen or Romney at all are you supposed I know I know you don't know. I up. When a regular. Or eating breakfast. And is supposed to be eight with the water in it or do we drain the war or off? A little bit of broth in mind all of. Dry. ICED Of Oak Cliff, you got to answer your coffee was up. Okay. So in college and listens even now I. Love Top Rahman but I don't drink it as A. So at boil the notables than as I like to cook I just don't like to cook. Poodles and then I cook it with chicken and Asian rices, soy sauce and different types of losses. So it's more like a low may I use it to make? Main than a soup so I've ever. Use the packet, but I enjoy the Moore. Road also still use it to my. Sweet. Must. Do, the same thing he was he was from Thailand. or his parents were from Thailand. So he thought a noodle pack it away soon, Pakistan. Type. But he loved the noodles but he didn't. Cheat by right. Bachelor. like a dollar less than. You get a four dollars just. Not Anymore but yeah. Nineteen ninety. Seven you can get for. Your dollar. But I don't eat it with water or the packet but I make it my own. Back with the. Water. I do but also another way that I grew up eating it because being as though family is Delaware East Coast and west coast like when I go visit my oldest brother Hussain years my senior and California they will make the Rama noodles not use the package but they would actually add hamburger ground hamburger. Different things to in I. I want to say casserole, but it was almost like. I of its own. Because Some Jailhouse Score. was. The recipe burdensome my who taught food food additives I love as a kid growing up macaroni and cheese dogs. But. Had heard of me. had. Before was different is a chef boy ar dee with my hamburger or a hamburger helper with you know with my hamburger meat and cheese and sauce and Fed Athletic because my favorite meal is a kid was the gay with has loves the. Until you get. That's interesting. What what part of Texas are you in? I, live in Dallas. I was so fucking bomb CBC. This year. So. The craft beer conference, it was supposed to actually be in San Antonio. And we were going to like we bought our tickets we. Ready to go and we'RE GONNA fly into Austin and we were we were GonNa Live Oak Juster game, and then we were going to go to San Antonio for the fast and unlike breweries there by the way big shot out to my dude Shannon Super fucking for him open up the urban jungle. That's going to be in. That that's going to be an Austin as well. So. His the way he described it as that far off is. I'm not familiar with Texas like I'll. Far, Dallas for awesome. It's like three four hours. Also like my thing is like Miami Orlando. Just like there's Austin, then just like south of Boston. A Little Bit South and then urban John was going to be up. North. I. Actually someone went last week to gesture came at their blackened dutiful. So having. Any of my black is beautiful but I have like five different breweries haven't joking you drink. I just keep the CAN I drink it. I'll tell you I haven't drank on stoute's in the stomach like I love. I love South but doubts in the summer they're so heavy for me. Eh preferred to drink it as hours. I'm saving for the winter if you're gonNA air you good. On them what we drank one last night and it was from celestial it was really really don't. Have the whether sold on that like two of the other solved one. Okay. All. I note. Mr. and. She know about people that. Haven't been back to Texas. Since eight, two, thousand, eighteen, I love Texas offices Coa is I love living here? It was a great. So I got two questions for you. foodie. Foodie coffee. Or to actually know yet to yeah to question. One. One is the what what are you gonNA star posted on posting the blocks. That was the first question. Of Pressure No. Other the other day. Today. Alison April, you say. People people I want. More. Coming soon soon as they come. In who? Other pressure was. Flex Eve to flex you kind of flex say Australia. Kangaroo we know you've been Asia and you win been Asia. So have you been to every kind of maybe not an article on? Every continent? Know. What kind of Have you been having been too? So I have every continent. Not, my goal to every continent I go to where I want. Let me. In that like I travel places because I love food advantage Japan in Alice we went to now but I really didn't have the full Japanese experience. So I WANNA go to mainland Japan because I wanna eat I WANNA go have Romney in late go to a bar where the food is alive and I have I wanna just have that food like I'm going to eat this whole reason. Proper is a Cayo so you'll certainly. In Scotland I say. I was up to try it because I'M GONNA I'm of on the Very Ama- fun eater I'm a I like to try things that I may not like just to see if my palate agrees with it or not, but the. Other haters question older loose. Rob You. Have the. Question for the people for the people. Go Off with the fact that was. Created. A little. Received a little bit. Older. So what can we? Expect a new blog post. The better raising of the question could have been. Hey when can we expect your next blog? Okay. Very good. was. WanNa fuck. April. So Only. You looked at my website. Home before. I knew he accidents like? This and all my friends are going to be like. So witter you posted. I know rows that question. Was Good. Answer. So where's your favorite place to travel of? Among. Not. I'm not like. Food blogs raced based on your travel, and if so I mean Obama has impacted a lot of it. So are you are you kind of a? Settlement. That route because. I am an instagram blogger I created a website mainly because. As felt like I needed one. Background is a technology like I work in cloud computing. So emerge. So I created a website as a challenge, but like I did it myself. US In being US like service It was something fun for me in allegations. I'm Ben with it now so On this study. Act that though because the typical Colorado were driving in like a booth planner. So I'm planning it out now and I actually. That May. That knows me is listening to this. You better now he was saying. Added that out. Be My first blog post in my first and only let us. I love girls. Are Not. Good. No we're just GONNA stop and like I have a bunch of places that we're GONNA. Go in I. went to a bunch of Burris the first time, and I'm gonNA write about the is times. Addict that'll be my first levels? So Kind of bouncing a two part question kind of bouncing off on deficit. So How like with your website do you feel more people in a ripe instagram or with your website when you when you put up the blog post like how's your traffic was your goes If I had contents Olympia mentioned that. Aunt arrive but it had content because people like when they go to my cage bill like you know you can see your numbers they're clicking on it but there's no content there in Great. But cannot like honestly is I know all of you can agree with me? It's it's saliva. Having Lake coming up with content than you're having your life that you have work like it's a lie and you have to commit the time to it and I had to this because I enjoy it. Leisurely fashion yeah. You don't WanNa, get burnt out and make it. Work. So that's like it was Liu. So you are asking or Sunlen was asked in wild why don't have channel company because once it becomes worth the expectation becomes raider in is on, enjoy I, during during this for my family and my friends. So this is fun for me and because it's also my indication that I'm paying for I'm not responsible for you. So if we go together and you understand that because you're not paying to service, we're going to have a great time together so. It's like it's not as. You Post when you post right if Or they're? kind of that connection to say you know what? This was a great enough experience where all lasted out and share with people. I just asked the question coming essay in April was coming soon. That's evidence said come to. Just ahead. Over just say if it would say, fuck is just. INSTAGRAM. Then I would have been. Sitting there. But I feel like I feel like you're right the time that because I mean, I, have. started. With you know blogging, writing my experiences at certain places in like that was something that I would initially pace the birds they go off honestly you went to migrate I remember the last time that. A. You know. Instagram is so much more streamlined so fast. One picture, one video games, your copy experience you got. Like. Have such little attention span and. You got you gotTA. Get. Imagine reading a twenty eight Would you sit there and like it's I. Especially when you? See the same type of content as he. People's content, which is the same thing. You were Freenet blog about in ten minutes. We'll let me just say this coffee I, enjoy your instagram page. And you just date. At the. Follow up to that. So kinda bouncing off a gun with deficit. After you know after you know the the I like I like how how is it sex right now like like is places open mic you strict to stay home or? What's going on in Texas? And Florida. I'm so happy back housing on work bartering. Ain't over. Dallas a unless they are food restaurants than they are only to go. If they are food restaurants than they can have dining service most of the restaurants here are open and a lot of them are. So go that you can sign in certain places I have not dying Danny yet but. This is the new normal I'm not going to not ever go sit in a restaurant again I prefer to sit outside. So I am GonNa start a potentially dining outside with my trip. I already like was Tony Mama's like so we may sit outside at her trial with actors like earlier ocd slowly fan out like a pack. So, that that's what my quite like. So having had this experience shift from, you know before go. That you would blog about these places. You would about the experiences of breweries, restaurants but stuff like have you noticed like or have you wanted to do something different? We're like Oh. This is this is what I took to today or this is why. I. Over global let. So that's a great question. So definitely, I have been focusing on black restaurants 'cause I eat them but I don't everything when I eat so been posting a lot more black restaurants it if I go to restaurant in can plate 'cause I'm not gonna eat it here but I want to take my pictures they love. That's free advertising on paying for my food, but also going to promote your business. So I've definitely asked the Klay or when they played it Mike, can you please make sure that this was really good is auto ID. So definitely taking pictures of so that really hasn't changed. It has changed innocence that I'm really bad about going to the same places isn't Alex something out eat until I, don't want it anymore. So I, have a candidate change that eating out with my friends it's easier because then we'll go to different places that when I'm eating for myself, I'm like Oh this is the richest like as five ish when I leave here when I'm done with you guys I'm going to go down the street and we'll give it because I love Fred some. To, answer your question. Yes. I'm taking pictures of small businesses and my foods ago or I asked him to played it and I'm also cooking worse. So it's a little bit of both of those. There's no travel xers. All right anyone can we It's A. Two hour we hit. Said you go every two years. By next year you'RE GONNA y'all GonNa. This year was supposed to be Japan but droplets Nabet to twenty twenty one and what's happened in twenty twenty two. Already know. So hopefully, go next year but no. So whoever goes I'm very democratic. So we would go in I'm GonNa, vote this time y'all so yeah dot. End We'll go from there because if I just pick then they'll be they'll complain. So if it's know a boat, I feel like. Much. Yeah. In Lincoln Beer company Y'all need to have beards was. Beer. I'll be. Darrow, that bird is. Moving. It's it's actually funny because when when mighty I we got married in March of Twenty nineteen actually had this like. Down like I didn't have talk like like I had a beard, but it was like. All right. And so this is like a year strong ears ear and a couple of months strong and you don't actually my my over Phyllis it. Out here. This is two years. Is Forty years? Arab. down. Game is strong to. Clean. You know modest. Your ended up. Cohen. WHO CARES GUY? The actual naming of the is finding. The. You know when my bosses of. I. Believe he was army, and so it was like in the in the military. And he you know when he was coming up with ideas over burry he there was one letter that read that he loved that. Abraham Lincoln was thinking of shaving his beard prior to running for the election. And I, some little girl him letter after the letters like you know. So it's a piece of history like it's at saved somewhere I. You guys should read if you look it up on Google or whatever. But. It says like don't shave you vote. At the the the slogan for Lincoln's beard is weird up beard. So That's our. That's our. That's our slogan. That's our motto, and so you don't have to have a beard to work there by. GOING FROM Working for my dad and you know every like author saw he'd be like, Hey, you're beers get off saved and dude, if I saw pictures of my dad when he first got here, Yo this dude had a beard bigger than mine. Longhouse House Air. Is. My pops. You know he's he's a little older. So he's just rocking stash now and I'm like dude. I'm like you came here with a beard and he goes yeah that was back in the seventies and eighties like those part of the tile broke your pajamas setup. It never goes on. So. Yeah. So you know not now that I have you know it's GonNa come to apartment. They're completely shaved. It goes whatever like I I kinda make these. Very. split-second. Decision, some time very impromptu. And like there there will be a time where you will see my face again but. Going to let's Say. In my idea like I don't have a job, you're GONNA have to renew to renew. We'll beer. and. Cut It. Off. Maybe a bad look through him if he gets that. Past. Job. Before we go right right I was drinking this neon tiger. Really Know. Is. Stroll. Feel like we overdid it on our. Today neon tire. that. Danny mean we we don't really. So it's funny like y'all know about Turkey animals down here. I've heard of it. Yes. It's a it's. It's a brewery that they've been. They've been like gaining a lot of accolades. We're we're actually driven last night Muslim my Danny we were all over there. And you know that they've been getting big big bumps. 'cause they doing like this our series of beers. and. You know in the beginning of the year when Dan started working together and like we were trying to get Lincoln's need backup because it kind of offer a little bit. It that. The first year we did was called the young mango was a while the mango passion fruit. It was straight juice. It was those thick in And the first thing that the first words out of Dan's boss were I just don't want to become tripping animals were ruinous our every week. And I told them like you know you just fuck the. Other week we're doing. Time. Those those those gateway is those are those bears that. People are just as pleasant for people that are not as. Drinking if property. To. This amazing. How how it comes full circle a lot of time for. I introduce people with. Know. Thank you. But now it's like. People like you guys our. Guys. I our beer. I veer off. I think mom was when we tasted it the South Ronchi Brandon Oh shit. GOLDEN MONKEY AT THE BE MY I. I had that that actually was I went to a I, went to A. A spot and they actually had the victory is our. Our. First beer ever hat and I, opened it. I ordered I drank it and. There's something wrong with this. Thought that the beer was off. Smack somebody. Beer like I'm not drinking this. PODCAST would over two years ago. To took the rest of home. I. Didn't even have the goal to put it in my fridge I. Let it sit in my garage in. Kept me. Run outside of yells at all the squirrels correct. Brother. Bottle of drank it, but it didn't make it. Because I think a lot of that was because there wasn't a lot of sours more fruit and stuff like that. I think that's like straight that was just a straight hours. Mistake letting a mistake. I don't know if it was. That they got me because I'm the. Started I mean people who has I mean I it was if our beer's. The. First Sal I. That was bad beer but then they said Oh people might have a tendency to like. I read that somewhere. But yeah, a lot of people that's why people put the fruit. It's I. think that's a little more palpable to your your taste buds and. Some people, people love victory. Our. Last question you said earlier that sour is not a style. But it's tight. So what is the style that sour will be unfair so The to the two. So yeah I would I mean they're always ails These use they use wouldn't be a against us a logger. Who knows some of be using a logger you soon for hours by? The. The the actual styles were the Berlin advice that they started in Germany, and then you also have the goes the those are like the so like Sour it's kind of like A. Hidden Springs they do all this hour Brunner's. So it's it's like a berliner sour like you know a lot of a lot of these days that don't really go to the lengths of the Berliner because in so far off from what Amarnath Berliner is and actually it's funny because I get the Berliners Sour Beer and you know it's very targeted very excited. So what they do is they they've actually give you syrups that you can fruit your beer with I. think there's like a raspberry zero in woodruff zero that they serve alongside your beer. So if you want to. kind of dial back that sour taste again. So. Sour in in and of itself is not really a style. Like you know with craft beer is and how it evolves is kind of becoming its own thing. You know it's funny because when at a beer festival last year I had a sour milk stout and I thought of with. Kurt milk thoughts. I. Thought when I was GONNA taste take. About this, but it wasn't that bad it wasn't. Too Bad. There's there's the milkshake opiate. There's a sour. All, these different, the beer, like you know from the the right hind school boots of. A like what we have. Now you throw whatever the fuck you WANNA be. Your, it's it's. It's kind of like. America has gone of. The United States has kind of you know like just run away with their own. Were always experimenting like now you see by talking about this the other day that you see. You know different countries around the world of like emulating what we're doing here. You know we're coming out with a doubles triple as we're coming on ways you know like the milkshake as in the the sour. Beers and legs, you know all these different crazy officials for style satellites. We know we're hitting like these fifteen sixteen seventeen percent beer is that it's like. Not, all of them are done well. In my in my opinion but yet you know you're just makes that first step of seeing if you can get to that point and then it's Still in Dungarees what a burqa and I thought. I'd. Like an hour away and you have to go there to like if ACAS ago I would have done it. So that I'm at the purchasing online, then pick it up but they don't have that option. I can't bill in the middle of my wordwide again, I can't do that hot someone drink that the CIA shoot. Oh I do not like she was a friend of mine and Asir Jackson enjoyed but. I don't know if there's some things that. Not, be a beer. Her if she enjoyed it but ain't. Yeah Martin House going Cheeto one. So that's doing, Oliva. Already did the hot cheetos and they're doing they're trying to do a what a burger. I saw there they made it like a tick tock. Tick Tock of what the The Beta was like it was crowded jail beard and it was like, oh. What does that coming? The side by side They doing. What is the is the Dunker one dunk of Bruce is what it's called as. Doing it because I think someone I think i. saw recently someone did a dunk. If it's not barred houses, there might be someone else that had done. I. Think I saw that we have the does you know there's the trick zero one. I actually with with strange priest before before we jump on Lincoln's there's a bird just opened up recently here at Miami called unbranded and they wanted to Collab- like you know we just do stupid shit. So The, we did A. Captain Crunch. Our IB. Can't, crunch. We just Solo. Crunch you should think about peanut butter cap'n crunch, yet it's A. Great ally okay. Okay Yeah does the picture that I saw. Dr Them. Our Lazy Back. Is You said you got friends, right I use my resources. Well. Yeah. Because if you got if you've got the OG black is beautiful. San Antonio. Right. Out some friends. Because they went down there in, they drove down to give them and luckily it's nice to be nice. So people are nicer to me because I'm nice to. TRIPLE TRACK BS hunting. Someone. Allow. Honey with vinegar. Right anymore questions. All right. Well, I WANNA. Thank our Guest Thirsty Samurai piggy and coffee foodie. Class. Great debate the banter was amazing. Also awesome set out. are are surprised guests. With. Little. With with three is Audrey is. Your. was just. Before. Bank. But before we go, we always like to know how we can follow you on your instagram where you blogs or. Came from. A coffee how can people find you on the World Wide Web's My love slips is. W.. W. That coffee he a Foodie. So Club. You find me on Instagram, facebook ad copied the DACA Foodie. In this, how you can get in touch with me soon? So I'M GONNA I'M GONNA, give it to you can follow my wife's love the instagram at Little Mahdi little spoiled out Mati M., a. r. i., and then I am going to have my I have to Redo the website why putting up my nonprofit website www dot Sam Gigi and friends also dot com. and. You can file follow me thirsty. Samurai biggie a there's underscores what you'll be able to find thirsty summer big. That's all spelled out as well. And Yeah. Oh by the way I do love the interest to this. Because every time I do buy your views views on Youtube, I opened with. Arrive I feel slighted because we didn't play a game but I'm happy and play a game 'cause I stuck music. Game, but but we. To Our Bob. We'll have more three. Maybe, we could do what we can do a game later on like our next week. Come on live and. We. Could. We'll get to later a second. Your work and I find you. Can find me own instagram at thrilled to Yoda and on Instagram at Delaware on grind and facebook. Good Delaware cry named. So right Lou. For, all, your. Black the fuck up off. On. Yoda I like to say I like you man I haven't seen you your hair lately us to be wearing hats lately so Listen. More has and see what? Aaron is back. Lose close up was a hit the show off his beer game but. The one and a half year is on his way. Have you Only. Say Two weeks. and. You, call it A. Bush. Save. The day. Representing my day after a shave for Samurai with. All right. Dev We're GONNA find you. Can find me on instagram at Devon Erin underscore the underscore. Great. Right now, you can find bruising Banta podcast, instagram facebook, and twitter. You can listen to a song google pack podcast anchor spotify anywhere used the podcast like radio and Pandora You can follow me on whatever. You can find that on. On PODCAST pay. What it is, it's like rob of BP say like that. But if you WanNa find me, you can find that. and. I I. Don't have much else. It's hard to remember what it is. And like deficit before next week, we will be live streaming the the podcast. Around seven, thirty, seven, o'clock pm I'll get the name the street, but we will livestream packets. So if you have a question you want to jump in, you can just DEP jesse jump in the senate. We'll be live from our facebook page and Ben Deepak asset you can just check it out We'll be live sampling some some some beers and just talking about. Some of the. Content that we have missed missed on talking about like what would you think about what? Pretty interesting. Off the map day. Thanks. Awesome. Some verses that we want to see whether it'd be in the rory game or in music we got. We got a lot of we got a lot of a lot of diversity in the between the four of us. We talk about. All right. So if you like the brew which you gotTa. Do. Oh like the brew what you gotTa, do I like that route Apparently, is wrong. With the with the bars right Do you want to get a boo kit well, even for like your winds can boots and all that shit. You can go with a W. W. W. W. Dot Craft Brew Dot Com and It's a kits and you could put in the Promo Code A. B. B. P. Four. And you'll get fifteen percent off a you're. Craft brew. All right. Until next time if your friends don't know about the crew. Tell a friend too. Running off that's right. I. F. Here it is. Own.

Texas Speedo MIAMI Lebanon US Natalie Japan Lincoln Beatles Mississippi Dean John Lincoln facebook New York Cancer Belgium Saint Jude Iraq
Dream Job

The Dirtbag Diaries

35:20 min | 6 months ago

Dream Job

"We're in business to save the planet. will use making close to do that. For over forty five years Patagonia has committed to taking responsibility for their impact on the environment by pioneering sustainable practices and inspiring other businesses to do the same the cure for depression action. Every one of us has to step up and do what you can according to what your resources are. Patagonia in business to save our home planet. Join us? You're listening to the factories production of duct, tape and beard with additional support from WHO at racks because you love your bike. And kicking horse copy. Wake up and kick pass. Hey Hey quickly. How's it going? Good question. Do you remember your first summer job out of high school? Oh, yeah, totally. had a job working as a runner at a legal office, so it was like imagine a world without the Internet and papers needed to go places, and basically you would run papers to. You wouldn't actually run it like I. Think Maybe the old days you would, but you'd walk papers down to the courthouse or to other branches of the legal things or drop papers off to be signed. And Yeah I remember the. First Job I had where I could drive because they had this car. and. It was like just old had no air conditioning. This was in Florida so it would be like if I drive somewhere. It was just like stepping into. The most hot humid thing you could ever imagine and like the seatbelt would burn you. It was yeah. It doesn't my memories of it. That was my first job, but it's good. Yeah, it good. Money in my pocket, which was pretty cool. And! I felt like I was doing something and I was not board so. Yeah, that's my memories of it. It's funny that you still have clear memories of that job, even though it didn't sound like the most enjoyable thing in the world. I mean there's just something about that period of time rate. We're like there's a lot of things like it was a super mundane job. It repeated itself over and over again, but like totally cool with it like it wasn't like it wasn't like an amazing thing like it wasn't like all these friends or I was the youngest person there. I was like their other kids working. But Yeah, something about that. Just like that feeling of like on putting work getting paid for it, it was cool. Yeah so I I. DO remember parts of that job really vividly even though it was like twenty five years ago. What about you? What was your? What was your first job out of high school I? Feel Kinda bad telling you this after hearing about that job that you. Would you do through my friend's Dad? Who worked for the University of Wyoming I got hired onto a field crew to survey links habitat in the remote Wyoming Mountains for the summer. So with my friends we would hike all day in courtrooms and identify plants and then camp every night under the stars. That's terrible. I couldn't imagine why that would be fun. Yeah I actually came back and worked for the university for three summers in a row after that 'cause I just loved it so much and the next two summers I worked on a crew collecting data about Wyoming's amphibian population. We were monitoring the spread of a fungus in how it affected toads and frogs in our state, so yeah, we got paid to hike camp and catch frogs and our crew, which was my my some of my best friends tests Don. Oliver we spent three months in that country outside of Pinedale and we'd shift between the Wyoming and the wind river ranges every few weeks. We've got to backpack our gear and miles into remote wetlands and Wade into coldstream. And Count Frogs Day and I just remember waking up in the morning, and we unzip our tents and rule out and stare out over just the most beautiful mountain landscape. We'd ever seen and our Oliver every day. Who would come out of his tent and shake his head and crosses arms and say well just another Shitty Day in the office, so we joked as teenagers that we'd found the best job. We'd ever have in our entire lives. Do you think that's true? Well I mean I've had a ton of amazing jobs sense that one. Obviously, this one is included. Good, To throw that in there. Be Happy Cordelia exactly. I do wonder how different I would be. If I hadn't had the summer jobs in my late teens, because there is just something pretty epic about the wildness of at all like my mom, she called us feral when we got home at the end of the summer, and there's just a lack of supervision and. An awareness of a deeper self that kind of seeped into our consciousness during those long uphill miles and the freezing Alpine swims. And in the way that we had to learn our body from the inside out like we didn't see ourselves demure for three months. And there was just the sense of pride that for the first time. We were doing work for 'cause that we cared about. To protect the places in the wildlife of Wyoming and Above all a university at actually entrusted a bunch of teenage dirtbags to collect data that would affect the future of our states ecosystem. It just felt really good, so yeah, I mean at the end of the day. It was just a couple of months in the woods. And compared to longer experiences that you have in your life, you know years in school or your spent working in other jobs, but I do I really do think that those summers after high school where some of the most important experiences in shaping Hawaii today. That's pretty cool. Yeah Today, we bring you? A story of to high school grads back in Nineteen seventy-one land this incredible summer gig. We all remember our first summer jobs. Some of US were Lucky enough to stumble into the ones that would change our lives forever on fits. Kahal Delia ours. You're listening to the dirtbag diaries. In the late nineteen sixties John Temple and his friend Dean Goodman were students at point grey. High School in Vancouver BC. This is John. We were part of a group that started an anarchist club. When there was a student council election, we disrupted the student council campaign by running the entire club for president. Other candidates for student President gave speeches in the auditorium. When it was the club's turn to present, they chose a different format. We got up on stage like a big group of us with drums, and started dancing around and yelling and completely juvenile, here's John's friend Dean and NAT principal. He was so freaked out when we got up to tall I hated school and I felt really confined by high. High School and all I wanted to do was get out and get into the real world every opportunity they got weekends vacations summer break. Dean and John Would Outrun Authority by escaping to the west coast of Vancouver. Island this is John. We be ourselves like we would have fires and we cook, and we would swim naked and run on the beach in and nobody bothered us. It was a draw. England ownership and the rain force it was so powerful force is something of being on the edge of the land at the ocean it is, it's ultimately powerful, you know. The ocean is teeming with life. There's the rainforest behind you and there's nothing in front of you. You're right on the edge of the world. Out On that wild edge of the world, the teenagers made their own rules set. Their own schedules cooked their food. At that time. The west coast of Vancouver Island was quite remote. There weren't a lot of established campgrounds trails yet. People didn't visit often, and the band of friends had free rein over great swaths of public land. They walked along the coast up nearby mountains built shelters in the woods to varying degrees of architectural integrity. No hassled them about chores. No teachers hounded them about homework. Do they felt free. When Dean and John Finally graduated from High School in Nineteen seventy-one. They started asking some questions that time get to go overboard on my own i. what do I care about? And for me, it was I cared about my friends immense. And I cared about being out on the ocean, and I cared about being on. The West Coast John felt the same together. They applied for a forest service job planting trees in hope, BC about one hundred miles inland from Vancouver. It wasn't the West Coast, but at least it would pay to get outside. We got fired after a few weeks. Because the forest service monitors the quality of the planting of each crew. And our volume was not good enough and the reason. It wasn't good enough is that? The crew would smoke pot at lunch, and then like get really slow and Lazy, Dean and John Claim. They weren't the ones slacking on the job and any case they got canned along with the rest of the crew, so they packed their things pocketed their paychecks and headed to their beloved west coast of Vancouver Island where they always found their problems to disappear. They decided to hike. The link of the West Coast trail a forty seven mile section that contours the island between the towns of port, renfrew and Banfield. The trail I created by the first nations tribes, of WHO I at DD DOT and Patchy for travel and trade earned its western title as the lifesaving trail in the mid eighteen hundreds. A shipwrecks became more common along treacherous. The Canadian government sponsored the construction of six shelters, a telegraph line and a rough path to help stranded sailors. Make it safely home. Though it's a popular hike now in nineteen seventy one. The term trail was best kept in quotation marks. It was easy to get hurt on that trail at that time you could. Get confused and get lost. You could stumble quite easily could fall off the log before they set out on their hike. Dina applied for an opportunity for youth grant to help repair and develop the trail to make it safer for hikers. The grant was part of a fund. The Canadian government had established in the nineteen seventies to get teens involved in protecting the outdoors. Outdoors and we thought well. We know this area as well as anybody. Maybe they'll give us money. The teenagers stumbled into a journalist named John Twig a few days into their backpacking trip, and he worked for the Sierra Club at the time Twig, ask them what they were up to and Johnny Dean told him about their grant application to help repair the trail. Shortly after they finish the hike John. TWIG published an article about them and a few days later Dean John GotTa Call It was Ken. Parkinson the CO founder of the Sierra Club in British Columbia, he'd read the article in the Vancouver Sun and thought these two outdoorsy teens might take a job. He had in mind a thousand bucks each. For three months work and all we had to do was go to a net triangle and explore it thoroughly and photograph, and document the features of the landscape like any potential campsites, any remarkable groves of trees or bogs or anything interesting, though it wouldn't be the grant, they had applied for to repair the West Coast trail. The Sierra clubs offer didn't sound too shabby. A summer surveying the net triangle the last old growth rainforest on Vancouver Island. Three freshwater lakes the net net Hobbiton, and yet they form a triangle about ninety square miles of land. The West Coast trail borders a side of the triangle so Johnny Dean knew where it was, but they've never gone beyond the trail to poke around. In the seventeen hundreds, the Canadians colonized the new child youth first nations, people and took control of the land, since then Westerners had never bothered to thrash through the thick rainforest at fault to etch out campsites or to carve out trails, but starting in the Mid Twentieth Century, the logging industry began making claims on the land the Sierra Club hoping to preserve the old growth forest, before in clearcutting started, began lobbying the Canadian government to include the Triangle in the Pacific Rim. National Park preserve which protected land just north of the net net triangle, so it was important then to try to find out whether the attractive spots were. There were good beaches for Bring your canoes. This is Ken. Farquharson the one who'd seen the article about Dean and John in the paper, so we thought would be useful to someone. Go in and do that expiration and backup on the maps where the best sites and things were, and also when they could find any vestiges of the indigenous trails and forth. Ken led the Campaign to protect the not triangle in nineteen, sixty nine for the Sierra Club. When he called the teenagers about a summer job, he got the sense that they were also passionate about protecting the west coast from being logged, and they were interested, which spoke to the quality of the work. We might get second. They were not couch potatoes and thirdly. Any expertise on canoeing They told us. Yes. Dallas guided challenge at. I think I didn't say what you. Capable of living on your own for some time. Well all right, yes, okay on your go. I asked Ken if he remembered what the job description was was to explore. Can Offer John Dean the job incredulous of their luck. They immediately said yes. Suddenly, we were like we've got the greatest job. Anybody could ever have. Now. At the beginning of June, the teenagers packed up an old canoe about fifty bucks a tarp, a handful of notebooks, a film camera printed maps, pencils, cooking supplies and food to last two summer. They got ride from a friend to the headwaters of knit net lake, no phones no GPS couple of bandaids for a first aid kit. They loaded up their canoe and paddle down the lake towards the ocean. Having hiked west coast trail. They knew there was a lineman shack at the mouth of the clan of river, several miles north of net lake. It was one of the rustic cabins built for shipwrecked sailors. They planned to camp out there for the summer I remember the first day we started paddling, and the canoe was so heavy, and it was so windy against us that we actually I remember US pulling ashore on the south side of net lake, and resting and just thinking Oh my God. Like. How are we going to get down this? Dean had never canoed before despite what they told the Sierra Club in their interview. John showed him the basic paddle strokes, and slowly they made progress towards the southwestern mouth of the lake, which opens into the Pacific Ocean rapids coming out of the lake into the ocean are it's really powerful is quite a bit current united. Do remember getting out into the middle and we were paddling. Like crazy is better. Go backwards and I can remember thinking Oh my God. We're GONNA, get. Out into the breakers. And we'd have like absolute crazy people who made it to shore not quite. Where wanted to did make this short, but I do remember the fear of that Oh. My God we could die out here. They docked their canoe. Gould and hike their gear in the remaining five miles along the west coast trail to the cabin. It was a small one room structure with no electricity, but it had a stove windows and room enough on the floor to accommodate to weary teenagers and their sleeping bags. Plus the view didn't disappoint in their backyard. They had a rainforest side guard lake. Front Yard Heat. And I still remember that you of going. Oh my God geography was so powerful. Once they'd settled into the cabin and got some rest. Dina Janet spread maps of the knit not triangle on the floor and plan their first expedition. They decided to investigate Hobbiton Lake I on the northern edge of the triangle. We were excited about going in and seeing the back country that we had never seen before. They packed supplies for a week. Having no idea how long it would take them to navigate the route. They penciled in on the map. They hiked back to their canoe and paddled across the net lake away from the ocean to the mouth of creek that connected it to Hobbiton Lake. They figured portage. Be Easier in a creek bed than through the dense under story. It was a bit scary thinking. Are we even in the right place? And you're looking at a map trying to locate the right creek going to a river and you don't know eventually. They found a creek that looked like the one on the map, and that's actually where the work got really hard because. There was no trail and we had never been in this area before, so we didn't know our own way. And we had never carried a sixteen foot canoe together through dense for some places you'd have open forest floor because you'd have huge trees, but other places trees falling all over the place, and you'd have to bend like it was really sweaty rough work. I just remember feeling a bit like an explorer like we are climbing up this river. We weren't even sure we are on the right, river. Throughout that first portage, John Dean pop their heads out from under the canoe periodically to document the landscape around them. Some of the old growth trees were so enormous that the dangers would stop put down the canoe and photograph. is standing in front of the trunk for scale. They took notes in Journal to accompany their photographs and mark their map to correspond with the landmarks. They found a grove of Birch here. A meadow of Ferns, an open forest floor, then might make a good camp site for future visitors, and there's something so much larger than yourself in the environment that you find yourself in that you're just like. Yes there magical forest those are magical us, and that's what it feels like when you're in them. When they finally got to Hobbiton Lake, they climb back in their canoe and circumnavigated the shoreline. They'd paddle for awhile and then stop sit still and let the canoe glide along the placid surface up the lake. They'd listen. Look taken their surroundings. When they saw Sandy Beach, they'd snap a photo and mark the location on the map, jotting down a short description. Along the southern shore of the lake, the drifted into a giant patch of lilies, where trees grew straight out at the bottom of the lake, not only was it still, but the feeling of being. They're thinking. No one's been here for a long long. Long Time made a feel incredibly special. We weren't explorers in the sense of trying to get somewhere. We were explorers trying to be somewhere. Understand it. John Drank straight from the lakes and the streams. When they got hungry, they snacked on dried fruit peanut butter. They chatted when they wanted and let the rich sounds of the forest spill into the silences in between. At night they pulled their canoe ashore and found a quiet spot to make a fire and Cook Dinner. We didn't even have a tent. A piece of plastic and the bugs were so bad in the middle of the night we decided we were going to get into our canoe and sleep in the middle of the lake, so we got into canoed paddled out there and then we put our sleeping bags under the. The seats in the canoe and slept in the bottom of the canoe. So here we are in the out in the middle of the in the dark in the middle of the lake. There's no people around, and we're wedged between the the bottom of the canoe in the seat and thinking Oh my. God, if we tip over, we will be dead because there's no way to get out between the seed and. They spent their first week serving Hobbiton Lake. Sleeping out and keeping a journal of everything they saw then they return to the cabin to compile their findings and rest in the rainforest. It rains a lot. They were happy to get back under a roof. We had no weather forecast or anything like that, so we had to make a judgment on when we would go exploring, and we literally called exploring. When are we going to be resting? And when are we going to be exploring? DNA and John, of course didn't have internet or anything that connected them to the outside world in their time off. They read voraciously. They swam in the nearby lake. Cook Rice and beans and didn't. We have a cassette tape recorder to heat the batteries up in the stove to get them going because they would run out of juice, and we I think we listen to Neil young maybe the entire summer. Right we did have. We were shave at typically care. We probably read Carlos Castenada and listen to Neil, young over and over and over again. Most days it was easy for Dean and John to forget. They were working that someone was actually paying them to live out these perfect summer days. But the more time spent wandering through the net net drinking from its waters in craning their next to see the tops of its oldest trees. The more they realized how important it was to protect this place from logging. The power of the landscape humbled, them filled them with a sense of belonging. They wanted to be able to come back here for the rest of their lives and they. It could all be gone clear to the ground in a matter of months. That thought build them with a sick sense of urgency to keep it safe. They knew in some small way. It was up to them. The two kids willing to head out into the wild for the duration of a summer. No one else from the Sierra. Club was out here and it felt like it fell on them to gather the information about the triangle that could convince the Canadian government to preserve it forever. After a break, Dean and John had back into the woods, their mission to capture the magic of the triangle and bring it home. Stay with us. Aw? Support the comes from the People Patagonian. The Arctic refuge is home to lands wildlife vital for the subsistence way of life of Alaska native communities. Patagonia films presents the refuge, featuring to which in women Bernadette Damon Teeth and Prince's Dr Jay Johnson as they continue a decades long fight protect their land and traditional culture threatened by oil extraction climate change. Watch the refuge, Patagonia YouTube channel, or Patagonia dot com slash films up. Additional support for the diaries comes from King Horse Coffee. Their founders dreamed of waking up the world with one hundred percent organic, one hundred percent, fair trade coffee today, roasted small batches of beans in their garage and hand-delivered coffee than the back of a station wagon twenty years later. The garage is a little bit bigger. There's a lot more beans, but king horse coffee remains committed to the same good values dream then do. Funded an Amazon or kicking horse coffee DOT COM. And support comes from Kuwait racks for trail-blazing rides or class. Four river drops. Coup makes racks to help. Get your gear where you want it to be. There redesigned pivot V to Hitch Mount. Make sure your bike rack smoothly swings away for clear access to tailgates, rear doors and hatchbacks, and when it's time to load up the tightening mechanism. Make sure your Iraq only moves when you want to coo at because you love your bike. On, their second multi day trip, Dean John set out to document Sushi at Lake just up the coast from their cabin. To reach the lake, they hiked passed a huge set of waterfalls that cascade directly onto the beach, and then portage their new through the forest towards the lake. By that time they'd gotten their systems more dialed. They felt stronger paddling and more efficient. Carrying the canoes through the forest didn't wind up lost as often they traded off who made written descriptions of the area and who took photos. My favorite writer at the time was Jack Iraq than I probably wrote pages in one sentence Hubbard and creek is jammed. The water's warm in summer and always clear it is lined by enormous trees and along the banks. There's a wide variety of flowers and shrubs. which attracts a rich birdlife? We were core photographers. That's for sure because it wasn't digital, so you couldn't see what you were taking. And that we the light was really weird under the canopy, hotspots and shadows and. And for us, we were just doing the best we could, and we didn't worry about it too much. We just became very much a-team. After several more trips into the forest and lakes not triangle. Their maps crowded with markings and the spaces left. Undocumented became fewer and farther between. They filled. Journals finished books. Cook together and watch the resident order swim through the river near the cabin midsummer Dina. John took a single trip back to Vancouver to develop the film from their camera nervous. They're photos wouldn't be good enough to turn into the Sierra Club. Therefore came out okay and reassured Dana. John restocked on food and headed back into the wild the city they didn't miss. It found it very difficult to be constrained by the structures that were in place, and we didn't feel that way when we were on the west coast. They spent their final weeks checking off the rest of the spots in the triangle they hadn't surveyed. Our notes and we had our topographical maps that we had marked up and everything. I think we knew we got this. We've covered it. I remember being quite excited. Like we had accomplished it and we had been up in the lakes. We'd written about it and photographed it and we were of ready. All too soon, the end of August arrived the sun, a shorter arc through the Canadian sky, and the teenagers took a few last swims and began packing up the cabin for their return to civilization. Hiking back to the net from the clan walk cabin. We knew that route so well. It was like our own front gate path. We knew every step of that path, and we knew what we'd find along the way, and you're savoring everything that you're looking at and seeing, and but you also know that time moves on, and there's no way to stay that place. You carry it with you, but there's no way to stay in it. And it was probably a whole day's journey for us to get from the clan Awas to the top in that lake. And when we got, I remember camping there that night. In the next day, my father showed up with a friend. And the Heddon Alec was also very much out in the boonies. There was nothing there except the boat ramp. into the lake, and my father showed up. I remember driving up and you've got out of the car with a bucket of Kentucky, Fried Chicken and John You and I'd been eating beans and Bannock, and like Salau Barry's and some smoked fish from the fishermen, and my father showed up with a bucket of Kentucky. Fried, chicken, and I do remember it absolutely clearly you and I sitting on a log and eating the entire bucket, and he was just staring had us like you. People are insane. What have you been doing for the last three months? They piled into the car with Dean's dot took one last backward glance at the lakes, and the trees, and felt the lurch of the engine tugging them home. Dina John submitted all their film journals and maps to the Sierra Club. Within the next year, the organization published a book called the West Coast Trail in that lakes a trail guide by the Sierra Club of British Columbia. Though the Karoake sentences were edited down to size DNA, John's descriptions and photographs of land fill the books pages, and it helped convince the Canadian government that this special place deserve to be protected. In, one thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, two, the year after Dean John's job, the government voted to permanently include the not triangle in the Pacific. Rim National Park preserve so it was pretty meaningful that you know we were just kids. We passed off our work and people who are much smarter and much more mature and capable than us. But we knew we were part of something where we felt like we were making a difference, and we were on the right side of something. Those questions that Dina John had for themselves right out of high school who they were what they stood for suddenly it felt like they did have some answers that summer, being out there alone in that kind of wildness, I think it really changed my whole attitude towards. Work in the future, and the way I kinda saw nature after that it wasn't kind of being there for the weekend like we were living as part of it, and and seeing it really really raw. And that always has stuck with me. We didn't have to be constrained by what others thought we could do that. We sort of were willing to take on challenges, and I think. That's affected. What both of us have done since then? In the years following their summer job in the net Deehan, John continued to say yes to adventures that gave them a sense of independence and purpose together. They built a log cabin from scratch with no experience. Dean started an architecture firm during a national recession, John followed his passion for writing and began a career in journalism. They're still in touch today, though it's been almost fifty years since they've worked in the net net, and they live nearly three thousand miles apart, both Dean and John are now exceptionally accomplished in their respective careers, and in a way they trace it all back to the summer of Nineteen seventy-one. There was this sort of a level of confidence. Just, keep moving, keep trying things, and and live with that feeling that you carry with you of the freedom, the wildness that we felt and and I think I was able to carry that forward. It set us up for thinking I should always be working at something that I love to do where I feel like it's important whatever the job is feel like it's very worthwhile doing. Tell people that I had the best job in my life when I was eighteen years old. Thank. You John Dean for sharing your story John Lives in San Francisco Deans Toronto, but they both still call the west coast of Vancouver Island home, and they visit as often as they can music today from Ken Cushions. And Bradley Carter Cayenne Google Cloud. Nine. Brennan O'CONNELL the tracks are courtesy of the artists themselves Jacob Bandon these kodo composer theme song. You can find links to the artist's at our website. Derby diaries DOT com. This episode was produced by me Cordelia Czars. Ashley Lane Holds Congenital. You've been listening to the back diaries. Thanks for tuning it.

Dean John Johnny Dean West Coast Sierra Club High School West Coast Trail Canadian government Vancouver Island Vancouver net lake Hobbiton Lake Journal US Patagonia Ken Cushions Dina Janet John Dean Florida Wyoming University of Wyoming
The Twilight Zone Podcast: Earl Holliman Interview

The Twilight Zone Podcast

1:21:18 hr | 1 year ago

The Twilight Zone Podcast: Earl Holliman Interview

"You are about to enter another dimension. A dimension not only have sight and sound but my journey into a wonderland of imagination next stop. The twilight elect Aw the place is here. The time is now and the journey into the shadows that would about to watch could Biagini but it definitely was the journey of my guest tonight when he stepped in front of the camera to play Mike Ferris in the first episode of the twilight zone. Where is everybody? He had no way of knowing that what at that time was another job for hardworking actor was actually a walk into the history books. I don't think I can describe how happy I am to welcome the Great L. Hollyman to the twilight zone podcast but although this is the twilight zone podcast going into so this interview. I wanted to speak to l. about more than just the twilight zone. What got him there? What else had he done? Because this is is a man who stood shoulder to shoulder with the likes of James Dean John Wayne Dean Martin and the list goes on and on because he he is an actor who landed in the golden age of Hollywood and took hold of every opportunity. He got with both hands. Now when I spoke Luke too well about setting up this interview. I don't want to embarrass him in case he listens to this boy. He mentioned a couple of things to me. He said you know sometimes when I get caught talk in telling a story I'll tell it for a while but also I'm ninety one years old and some details names and things will escape me from time to time. So that's all completely understandable. A when we did the interview I can only describe. Elles recall as astonishing punishing. He's referring to names. He's talking about places and dates. Uneven conversations the happened over sixty years ago and they roll off his tongue like they happened yesterday and what I hope he realized by the end of the call was that he was concerned about talking too much but to be honest I hung on every went from this wonderful man and his magical stories of place and a time. That just doesn't doesn't exist in the same way anymore but to hear L.. Talk about them. Still with such fondness enthusiasm I would have happily fell. Fill ten podcasts with stories and it still wouldn't have been enough so now the only person talking too much is me. Let's go over to the man himself because the place is here and the time is now for us to meet the twilight I liked zones. Best lead actor Mr L.. Holloman I know that you want it to be active since you're six years old didn't you so i. I had to preface. This was saying and I really am one of the lucky people in the world. I first of all I was the baby of seven my real father. Supposedly my real father died six months before I was born and the other six children were put in an orphanage. The mother was she was She'd been married often. She was fifteen and she was thirty and She had in the meantime had summoned. Some kids you know. And the husband husband had been he was considerably older than she and her brothers. Kinda push her off into this and wedding and He put her to work in the fields. And you know she went out and pull cotton and I mean I have worked in the cotton fields and dull at work and then going home and cook the meals and you know and then had six kids in between she and she had to wear. Dresses downunder rankles even wear shorts ankles. This was a hell of a life. You know Anyway he died and In the meantime As I say the children were placed in your finish in the Hallam's Henry Holland ornery Holliman. Worsen the oilfields and They were traveling through that area ahead of Louisiana and visiting of Velma Hamas When I say this is my now we'll be my mother so when I say my mother father I'm talking about the Hamas and my mother Her Berbie sister fanny lived also out there in the woods and there was a farmer and it was a poor families as I said doing it oppression and they were gonNA came to visit a hand thumb Hamas unable to how children and they wanted a child very much and Fanny her young sister told her about at this baby that was up for adoption. And so she and the two of them got in the car and they drove to Downside del Louisiana In the woods waverly he was not really talent. It was just a cotton mill and a company store. You know on the highway and They they went to check him to meet meet the woman who had the baby and that was her name was Molly Frost and they took me Yeah she took me. I had a very sickly looking thing apparently had been. I think they positives born at six hours a week old. I was losing weight and I had on his. It'll take me to the doctor and the doctor said You don't have a baby area funeral experience and My Aunt Fanny said if he's going to die. I'm GONNA give him a dose of castor oil. She did and Actually she had a baby. She had her own baby was weak older who she was nursing. So does she knows to me. Or unrest and Little Catherine there for a week or two and by. Golly you know senator I I grew. I made it. You know. So now. There's a big star. Now I Osama luckily was gonNA lucky to be. You know the fact that Holomisa as me and gave me an incredible life Yeah but only life. I came from I love to go to what we call picture shows in those days and I I think I never missed. You know Mr Pitcher. She'll help it. I just love them and I grew up and people would say. What are you gonNa be when you grow up sound? I said I'm going to Hollywood. It'd be a movie star five or six years old and I never stopped. I never stopped by the dream My Dad died when I was thirteen. He had had had been injured working for the often. The epilepsy and I mean developed epilepsy and so he couldn't work anymore even though he looked like a very healthy man and we ended up We lost the only thing we had. We ended up and living in this little lake. Caddo Lake and missile fishing shock. I mean there's a one room shack had a kitchen area. Like like an enclosed porch kind of kitchen and You know me as the number of washed out in the winter and we bathed the late during the summer and use. You know used ivory soap because it's loaded losing a show. There's a hell of a wonderful way to grow. I loved it. I I'm we're right on the lake and we. We swam and we we fished and I had a lot of friends friends that I am. I always love school. I Love School. I was a good student was a straight A. Student and I just had one and I never I don't know I introduced the idea when I was about eleven. We had lost so anyway. I I had a couple of buddies and we talked about we. Were GonNa make a home newly. We're going to get a movie camera. Sumer we we this whole idea about the credits in a magazine or something and so we were going to try to do that. You know what happened of course but we worked on trying to do that. I'm GonNa make movie but I always wanted to be. I ended up. My Dad died when I was four when I was thirteen eighteen dad. I know it's fourteen. My mom and I moved to three or four. She got a job in a you know Cafe sure all the other places where servicemen after after after curfew only place they could eat this report because it was the bone little bus station to get the back across the river for to Barksdale field and they could be there they weren't awol over there all night in and took the first bus back to the base so constantly anyway she works there. I worked for the longest time as an usher at the Strand theatre after school. And that was one of us a lot of movies and of course At this time it was fourteen and then I became assistant student assistant manager. It was called. I was making twenty five twenty five cents an hour so big money by my mother. My my mother was very innocent. Little restaurant you know. It was like a home body. Russia biggest meal expensive meal was twenty five cents. You know so you can imagine and It was run by mom and Pop Flynn and she was from four in the afternoon. Till till No I'm pardon me for maiden eight in the morning and the afternoon. She made a bucket day and two meals and on-command the doughnuts and eat most of our salary but Finally voice in the magic shop next door and UH recruited clearly had been in Hollywood magicians Mendez his wife and and they use the idea. I worked on the stage with him. You know I in some of the parents as they did and how it works in the shop and I wasn't getting paid I was working for Magic Sheikh lessons. And this I was fourteen at this time and But anyway then I quit. I ended up I. He's working. The nightshift will move. That works and I went on eleven o'clock and work till eight and she relieved me and I managed to save seventy dollars and it was from that One of the soldiers. They're heard her say I was going to go to California. I was gone from Los Angeles Hollywood and you said well he's he was he in some other guys he said here is addressing my folks. She stepped their place. No money It was a suburb and What do you really know what you rinse your room own? who have a room for rent? Anyway I sort of ran away. I'm just mumbling on your stopping you goals but I I was I was sure you get out. I had a buddy named Robert ship. Membership with was not was approve. The exaggeration We were in the same class but he going to visit his mother. He was separated from his mother's in California in Los Angeles and he came by talking about How He'd been listening to all kinds of things and and how And how he been in a little movie he really. You know a lot of mental kidding and and but he got me all excited about it was at the time the war was on and it was the thing at the time. In the meantime my dad died. Of course I think said that but there the program in La In Los Maybe all of California I don't know but Because of the need for for people to work in in defense defense plants at center. If you were sixteen years old you could go to school for hours a day and then worked for four hours a day and the defense plan. I was told so I went up to visit my my my mother's sister my another hand older sister in Arkansas and in from there I left and I called and told her I was GONNA hitch out to California and into My aunt says she was okay and I I remember I left. I sound card. These people saying my way. I knew your son told told you. By the way they were expecting a soldier. You know I had my fifty the second day I took a bus to Texture County Texas from there I was I hitchhiked and I and the second road was my fifteenth birthday. You know So I was headed for California. I was going to Hollywood and I did. You get out here. I was out here for a whole week And of course I watched it around. You know I went out Well I the first day I got the OPEC nope Pacific Electric Railway or Trolley Car and Streetcar and winning the Hollywood. When you know when I would seeing everything I could see walked from paramount gates Columbia's engaged in anyway ended up in front of Grandma's Shany's theater and even those days a huge tourist attraction people always walking walking in the lobby? I mean in the four putting their feet in the stars footprints and all that sort of trying to step on them so I went there and I don darn class just. Because I can't glasses with movie I thought that was associated dark glasses for the movie stars and not only that but I thought I I knew I was going to be crossing the desert so so I have my glasses on and I walked back and forth in front of Gross Chinese and I remember having this thought. It's embarrassing but I remember having thought I had only clashes on my little short sleeve So white shirt and mocking back and forth running. Oh Shyness and I thought I wonder who they think I am I. I wonder who they think I am. what's what's your ironic and this is. I always wanted to tell the story this story. I I it's like a dream. Come true story no one. I walked there that we have something called the walk of fame. Have you been to Los Angeles Hollywood. I have one please please ago. Well around grown Shany's in Hollywood boulevard in certain areas streets and they have this what they call a walk of fame and all these stars and the yeah cement in the sidewalk For you know for the movie stars and for various you well in Guam Chinese or and his One has got a guard Boston. You Step Greta Garbo and you step over the next one and you step on Chuo McRae's as well Joel mccrea and Barbara Santa Where where the two stars the first time? My name appeared above main Thailand. Job Buildings Western call Super Hook. Who who's Joel mccrea Iverson McCain role Holland and so I was exciting growing granite but now What's ironic like And Western wonderful is between Greta Garbo and Joel mccrea Israel home star. So I so I just to me so so amazing how. It's just amazing. That th the silly kid walking in front of Gomes Chinese and now he has his own star there where even walking and pretty making a bottle of the dreams come true if you say long enough hang long enough I work at it hard and get a good lucky break but that break is so important anyway and that was my first trip and then from Hollywood only back home I didn't have any start without a star and went back home and went back to school and three months later. I got my mother. My mother's going to get remarried. I got my mother to sign anything saying I was seventeen. I can investor that if I got into the Navy I finished high school in the navy and they wouldn't send me over school overseas until I was of age and she bought it and I went out to join the navy. I was back in California California. I went to boot camp. I was still fifteen years old. I was in the navy. US Navy. I went to boot camp and then from San Diego I came to La to go to radio school if there was a big armory Huge armory that Naval Army turned into a communication school for for radio operators and also cinnamon and every other night we had five hours liberty high tail it up Hollywood Boulevard and we go to directly to the Hollywood would canteen Hollywood canteen. I'm sure and God I the first night there. I'd ask for Virginia one I cut in. I guess with for about fifteen seconds cut in but little junior weidler. Do you remember. Virginia Weidler in the women's she was the daughter of Norma Shearer. Okay if if you ever saw that movie I'm sure and things you know she was under contract to MGM. But also some of those some of those nights I read. They're also I. I had a conversation with Joan Crawford stood in line. You got her autograph milk. Well if you're a serviceman gee I you know it was all free. Everything is is free. There was no drinking. And there's no liquor in the place but they have is a big every night you you sit down on the dance floor and there was some kind of big show either red skeleton or somebody what he was doing a big Who Radio show from there or somebody who was a bunch of stars were appearing? It was marvelous. And they'd have you go to the milk bar and a soft drink bar and I remember talking to Joan Crawford then and she had should we just signed an autograph and she said WHO's a two I said to She said mortgage. You like me to say Henry Them. She was my first name. She's been how Henry with the Hollywood canteen gene and Misses you very much Joan Crawford. I said that's wonderful. So acid which is you do another man she said yes. WHO's this too? I said this system oursel- what what can I say to marshal the same thing. She's a wolf this hour session with Joan Crawford Uh and I also long talk. Maybe not long talk conversation with Susan Hayward and you know you you could talk to the stars you were there you know and and I remember. There's some of the people I've talked to and saw their years. Later I would work whereas of course and My Guy Yeah it was. It's just incredible especially an incredible life and everything everything everything has been Like you know sort of training right going left and that happened to be the way to go. You know it was always always seem to somehow make the right decision and luckily I just out of nowhere you know when I was going to the past playhouse quite house For the second after the native my mother told Mac Os in a year. She found out that she wrote and told them and they they sent me home. And I went back doc. Screw finished high school play to lead the senior play. I was the president of the senior class. And then I went back into the navy for two more years. And while I was in Norfolk Virginia. Yeah The Henry temporary additional duty off my ship And I was Tell me tell type school as well. So is handling messages for all the ships to see the apartment all the ships dock and a they formed a theater on the base of this Norfolk. Virginia was is a big city. I mean thousands of no hundreds of thousands of servicemen marines and sailors in the Incredible credible really was and they forms. on the basic form this theater of To do players. They had this wonderful woman who came from the Northwestern University and into the storm Astuter and They did A. You can't pick your with you. Is there for play on a theory there on the base and they had a AH auditions open to all military personnel in the area. And I auditioned and I get the part of Jimmy Sturr role. You know the the League Young League I know and And then after that they did another one called Mr Mrs North and I get to play Mr North and all the time I was working around me on arranging schedule so I still get through my work you know and but this is long boring. I'm so sorry the thing is Al.. This is this is a time you know in movie history. That is so interesting to to so many people because you know they call it. The golden age of Hollywood's. And it really wasn't it the names you've mentioned so far. These are legends aren't they. Yes they are and you know what's interesting thing is it. What's interesting is that when I was doing? Police policewoman this system. We're heading now but when I was doing policewoman Buddy of mine another another buddy And I and all of three Ad for one two three four. There were four of five of US altogether actress. That Obviously a serious at the time was working really and We we opened this theater later and Well my my buddy had bald off for me. He was in Korea and all and he come back and use actors Studio Guy and director actress and he'd been he'd done a lot of dinner theaters around the country and and and Small theaters and an actor but also as director and he always wanted to run the best. St Always wanted to dream about having the best in the country and he would scout line when he came up with Identifid build a San Antonio Texas on the outskirts scares on the second rammer on the city and it was a terrific theater and I we all we all bought it. We own obviousness sixty or sixty percent or you know and Causing consequently it's called dual Hamas playhouse. And you know I mean we. We had an June allyson. Lana Turner She's Romero Canes three times Van Johnson came twice And they'd go for five. We have fifty two weeks a year. We ran shows for for five weeks and then in the summer. We'd do a ten week musical you know and we had Christ incredible incredible incredible talent. You know people were so interesting people. I talked to worship people. I've been in off years and seventy I'm your sounds you know. I was suddenly like. We're like paying their south. Who was amazing? I tell you I said I haven't been so lucky all life you know. Everything is beautifully you know I could go on and on and on hell out of you know I. I don't think that's that's possible but I I was watching a couple of your movies over the past couple of weeks. I watched the Big Combo which you did with Lee fairly on I. I watched the rainmaker to you. Watch rainmaker recently. Yeah yeah well. That was my favorite favorite favorite. So is that the one that really put you on the map. G thing that was. That was my sixteenth movie. I had started on a lot to say how I get into indistinct. End Pictures As the playhouse and One of my wonderful Oh new level was also in the classroom of May here that he had been in north on naval theater. That's really met and we worked together and both of us to productions. I told you about but I was discharged a year before he was and when he got out I had already been to. USC for for a while and decided. That's not what I wanted out. I came out to USC. Because I realized that we're GONNA see the mill was the head of the Department apartment and I thought well he's a sesame most mother that must mean a lot you know but but in fact five -ality saw him once in the him but A I decided after a while. I thought I'm really not getting the kind of training or worse an actor and and I love the education but the other stuff was anyway So I went to work in the end and I went to work at Bluecross in those in those days. But everything's done by hand you know as a claims to just go around ankle through the files. You didn't have a computer on that stuff. You had to look everybody up but I worked therefore AIRF- Until the beginning of the next season I had been accepted at the passionate playhouse on the GI. Bill so That's where I really got my training. You know ooh that was terrific you know. It was wonderful and and and Neil Levin I ended up. You'll ever came on it. He wants to school and we became. We're in the same class. And there's a guy named artist Strada who wanted to lift US online and somebody has suggested the barber had paramount a name. I'm Victor and He was going he newest. We're going to send. Hey you wanna go and they were gonNA go to Panama. There were all he has to do is go through the gate and tell them we had an appointment with the barber and because she couldn't get into gates you know at paramount or any studio. You didn't walk in the gate. You know the shoe had some business So it was wonderful. We went to the gate and he said Real bummer. Wishy Victor the Barbara Internet. Just you just went right in and I had a friend I'd been in the navy with the first time who was out of the service and he was working in the mailroom? Lloyd and I will we ran to him down there and he told us where shooting certain scenes. And after after after the actor. The initial interview with our borrow WE'RE GONNA run into a road sachin. We won't walk around just opened the doors and went on the show and watching. How alleged shoot the branded and anyway? That's where I learned it was this That's one of the lucky things I mean if it hadn't been an artist Johnny wanting to get this airline I wouldn't have known to get into paramount studios. Ah but I use that later on. I used it a lot and I used to go when I was working after. I got out after got out of school. The playhouse else I was working at North American as a temp lamonica building sabres yet and On on About once a month or every six weeks I take off often go to paramount and I weigh myself and I'm just going to see victim barber. Yeah and I I never saw victim Barbara but I did see a lot of wonderful wonderful stuff I I walked on the set of all Kirk. Douglas Mass shooting billy long it was directly on the scene for the That tissue had a couple of different names the the one where the galveston trapped in the cage and I came and he was a reporter. I mean this was called God and now I can't think of supposed to be a big film of love there and I made how ironic you know later on. Of course I was going to work Kirk. Douglas twice and gunfight at the OK can well and the last train from gun hill. You know But at that time I stood watching him why I watched launch Libyan Jennifer Jones to a scene sister Carey And I I would go round from set to set it was. It was exciting. I was you know that was. I was sitting there while Jose Ferrer. Who just went there Kademi award for Like Sarah no debate exactly surrounded version Iraq and Anyway and wash them. I obviously but but that's why I used to do. While he was on unlock. There was a young actress I've been in class with the playoffs. Darin Martin and she introduced me to To we were all talking in group and she introduced me to Pat Ball to Paul Nathan whom I spoke about earlier and and when I go back every time I went to the studio and always dropping Paul and kid. MSA wouldn't you GonNa put in pictures on you and you became good friends. We had a similar humor. I mean we enjoyed each other and we really like my best friend and they were doing about zero picture. Scarce shift with Martin Lewis. He said look you said it's just a one liner but You know so. So he tasked me As this Ah Elevator operator and I D Martin step down and you know first of all those Jerry Lewis Jerry Lewis Elevation which means room fourteen o one straight down. The halter leapt than Dietmar a little later. Stay down the hall to the Left. I saw to do later on in the crowd and another two days worked. What's on it but When I was finished with that I said You know he sent me over to see the other two cashing guys and they were on their way to cast. The picture called the girls a pleasure island. They needed the next day. They need a twenty five guys Marine selling up at three girls he goes girls in the window and UH Audrey Dalton was three girls from England. Who'd come over here to do this film okay? Paul gave me a good sense of good two guys and and said they said well okay. Hey sent me over to the only used to getting a haircut. Well now I'm GonNa meet Victim Barber I finally I just had a haircut but not from him damn position they should give them give them a GI. Well that's another lucky thing. When I got out of the chair I had here about a quarter of an inch along at hung down like banks around the front of my four and a half? Gi Butch Haircut and it was semi with my big ears to allies in my the fifty two front teeth. And you know I certainly looked like a character I was. I you know all this time. I've lost all the well where the good looks suddenly. uh-huh a real character actor well. It was lucky you're saying they took me sixteen pitches to get rid of that. Look I constantly you know was cast your best as this guy is a matter of fact Anyway I went on the next day and I had a ball five guys. One of the extras was a guy. Robert Fuller. Who later became a well-known cow actor television series actor? But there was four of us bricklayers. They wanted because they wanted to big players to be able to to have if they had the shoreline to somebody that you had to bit flare if they gave you line and so the other words you could heal up tennis so I was having a ball. I was I remember the Illinois obvously hamming yelling. Come on down. Baby Daddy won't buy all ridiculous stuff but but when they saw Russia's fall into the Russia's there's you know just to see what what happened you know what the Russia's you know the next day they wanted the film they had shot the day before and He said the he's really. You said you know you really came off on screen. He said he said I think they liked. I got the sense. They really liked you in the Daily News. All guys as you know but you but he said he said you should go over and talk to their sister upturned telling them you know that you understand they liked you in the Russias and that you Together Astrid you'd be willing to work for scale you know and they could cast you. It'd be around any time. They needed a familiar face. It have you there and I did exactly see that and of course The Guy said Yeah. You're the assistant director said. Yeah I liked you. I liked that other little guy to Ross Bagdasarian who became later known. Mostly in this this country for He was an actor. The also was a songwriter. wrote all those Alfred. Alfred Alfred chipmunk songs you know if you remember remember that anyway So Hey put us both on on the field and US you know all through the picture and then disturbing under snowball about this guy funny looking haircut who had been picked out of a crowd scene and I got I got a call from Asia and then Paul spoke to me two two two of the big guys the big guy. One of the big guys. Though William Morris Jimmy Townsend and one of the big guys that Sam Jaffe which was Phil Gersh most top patients and they gave me a big sorry being that they song and dance about. What a good job? I don't scared stiff. And Anyway I made up a story and and and wouldn't acted apart. I mean I was. I was a lot of you know I actually. I was a little shy but but you know I had to get over that so I created a disguise. I was now working. I was at that time I was working in Also I if I if I had a regular job I'd have to leave. Correct me if I got a picture to leverage I I was in I was in Beverly Hills and we're working a little plant where we may oxygen therapy for people with Lung Diseases Anyway When I talk about how we're going to be the president of this organization I was GonNa you know I was really Gung Ho I anyway? But Jimmy Townsend says the meal William Morris she said you know I like you. I'd be wanting to sign you. Take your name a bit. I should really said. He said he said Holliman's hard name. Remember you know you know. You said we'll work on anyway. I left his office not directly to the To be sound to meet Phil Gersh Front at the other office and at the end of our conversation I need to. I suppose the same actress and at the end of the conversation He said I'd like to sign you. You said but I think I'd like to change your name. I said I know HAMAS alleman Harden Andrew Remember he said no no homes are good name he said I at least I don't like earl so I hit my name. You know not to change anything but he took me out Within two days we ought to Twentieth Century Fox. I met the Robert Wise who was just about to direct correct An action film starring Richard Mark called Vaccination Gobi and it was all took place in the Gobi desert supposedly link and about seven Navy weathermen were out in the desert and We it'd be getting involved with Mongols angles and all kinds of there was a very exciting film and I get cash. They cast me and it's funny When when they were trying to award everything that they put a hat and the producer director and he said he thought where you lose the hair? You don't see the hair I mean. That's what I'm talking about the headline about the funny looking haircut you know. So that's how I got into pictures and from then on just one one thing after another and when this thing about there when it was I was doing this. got the O. K. Corral and I heard about The rainmaker I mean you have about the running back and I'd gone to see on on on the stage and I knew that our sound me. It turned out he he wasn't he told how they see wasn't ready. He didn't want to do films at at that time. He had played Jimmy Allen brainwaves wonderful and anyway Several people kept saying you know we. Just what a great part for you or oh you know you're perfect role for you kinda stuff you've been doing when the time came. Obviously I was working on the the kicker well I was playing a the the deputy to Burt Lancaster Trade Charlie ambassadors and with Donald Location and I I had gone to. I had gone To George Stevens the meantime I gun shy and of course and George Stevens before before before I got caching this gone to George I I by this time. I knew how Wallace you know and But how they thought of me as I was twenty seven at that time and how long I was too old for the part you know and the corner logically I watch you know but I knew I could do it. But in the meantime I I went to see George Stevens and he came out of the cutting room. And 'cause I he he was such a nice guy loved working with George and I told you about this part. I told him how yesterday I actually. Here's the possible you can show them some of the film's giant to not that I can play younger conger and he said Yeah. I'll do that. He's saying promising but unfortunately There was a feud going and had been for a long time between Jack Warner Wars. And how Oh lawless and came from the night that Jack One When when Wallace got the producers for the Academy Award for Casablanca and Jack One asking him to see that he never gave it back to them. You know so But anyway he had this little kinda running feud yeah and and chocolate wouldn't let any peace in the film of giant also lot he said no Even though the Dean George Stevens says this big deal about it he was gonna let off the line. So Paul Ryan was in a Hollis office. When George Stevens made a call it was very sweeter sweet have he made a call to Wallis and he and he put a big push inform and how all of a sudden well? Maybe he's he's he's but you know he said this character sure is eighteen years old. I used to really pay sixteen for me Hell you know I mean it was wonderfully he really pushed me and and and Waller's well maybe I'll tested but then what's the end of that never happened I was working in the meantime. How Walsh assigned Elvis Presley early For a more multi picture deal and Guys in his New York New York office were pushing desperately pushing Wallis to use USA. Jimmy Best First Film and what about made a fortune. You Know Wallace. When he only had a lot of films on it but but he they wanted to use? I use them in this. Now that I don't know if Katherine everybody could have sued that. I don't think she would've you know I really don't but but I you got a call from Paul I I just finished shooting the scene with with Kirk. Douglas and I was all through to come back. I could come back and Paul said. Get back as quickly as you can. sennheiser wireless just isn't going to test you. He said he said but he said you'RE GONNA lose this parts Elvis Presley. If you're really pushing for this. He said get back as quickly as you can. He said because we can use you. We're testing Pat Stanley of the girl who was such a hit and Fiorello in New York and the musical. We're passionate here for contract and one of the things we're using from Kennedy elder and others from I mean the scripts scripts that they had raised. Do later on ause pictures that would make he said one is for Jim. One is Jimmy snooky scene and the rainmaker where they meet and Shit. That's GonNa he said that's Yoohoo who for that way at least Wallace. At least he could see you in the part you know at least so I did We tested a patent. I met and we ran the scene and And and we did the Sheen. I ran into Russia's The next day n Richard Nash. Who'd written this Dritan play? It was also during the screenplay he was served with how Wallace. And you're sitting there with Joe Joe Anthony who's indirect the picture and in Russia Nash. Twenty to me on the screen and this no one of those lucky thing. He said attached to the boy eluded for now. You're getting me particularly but he meant what I was doing with the park. You know and I thought Oh my God so you know I don't i. I was in heaven because I thought that's it. You know it's well I wasn't really it. It went on for another couple of weeks. And in the meantime I get an offer from talks to do a picture called Sound of Bugles. Which is war story with Terry Moore and Robert Wagner and it wasn't a it wasn't a great part that was nice shaw part but not a good part not a wonderful part now? Nothing exciting really and Paul at the office. And he's he's real this now. He called me at home and A few days after he called me one day earl. He said I tell you what she got to do you are you on the edge of losing this part. He said despite what they were screenwriters. There you go. They push while. It's so hard to to get Elvis into this movie movie. You know. And he said he said I'm GonNa tell you what you have to do. He said call up Ryan who was representing paramount for Gersh Office for. We're my agent. He said tell him he's gotta go Wallace and tell him that Rule hasn't been offered this great party at Fox and he has to let them go right away. UCS YOU WANNA take part. He said he said he was so excited about planning role. But you've kept you know. Say He's he's we have been told it's nice he said we have to know by six o'clock tonight if you're going to use their own or not And Ronnie so. I can't do. I can't do that. I can't say that to Mr. You're scared clueless. I should you gotTa do you gotTa go and you gotTa do it policy and then I got a call from Paul auster earl so you said if the phone rings don't answer it and he said Wallace is going to try to call if it rings once and then there's a pause But then then you can pick it up but don't don't pick up the phone today unless unless it's kind of a cold so I thought all day and he called me. Paul said Wallace called him in the obvious whereas earl and falsities home how he said. Well you're not answering the phone palm posted to the how she doesn't want to talk to you really he said it doesn't really hard to me. I mean but I mean he was a little perverse at times to talk. Ah said because he say he was so excited about this part. Everybody said he's perfect for it. You know and and and and screenwriters that's the guy wrote it for and he said there's been so excited all this time it preparing one and he said inside he just. He's he's realizes that kept him hanging. He has this great part at Fox. He's GonNa Accept. Yeah well it's six o'clock. The phone rang once again. oposite running again. I picked up the phone and Paul simply said you got the part. That's how I got. Jimmy is having somebody on your side. Wow Act out so well be because you want an award for the movie and everything rice. I tell you all talk was about the academy was and I didn't believe in taking ads. You know I mean they're all can always taking ads and I said no if I deserve it again. It even assistant directors. We were doing the last he said he said do the. CDC 'cause as you'RE GONNA get an academy award this part anyway Everybody seemed to as a matter of fact Tony Quinn who won the Academy Award for less for life that year In the same category of supporting he was having crow. Paul was at the table and when they having how Wallison and and the agent. Ah here's for for Tony. 'cause we were shooting a hospital at that time and I was playing Tony. Son and it depresses you pointed to me. said there's there's one nurse your competition over there at the next table will turn out. I wasn't as competition because in those days that was been last last year. That all the other denominations were not made by. Kevin Remember the nominee whether devoted on the cabinet members with the nominations were made by SIP simply by actors and of other like sixteen thousand members of the actors studio the Senior Actors Guild and actors are known for not seeing anyway. You can't see everything you know. So the patient game at the end of the year. Now I got I did get I did beat Tony on I mean they had Herbert Lom from from Warren in peace and To Stars from every doll and I can't now the But you know what I mean and and Tony Quinn and myself. We were the five Gosh nominated for the Golden Globes for Supporting Award and yes I did get it. But the night of the awards They were sure I was going to get it this. This was after I'd already gotten the golden glow or even to get the Golden Globe. They shouldn't they had interviewed well. I was sitting On the couch with Lula Parsons and and be be climbing the woman from paramount suppressed department. Who took me to come over and go to the phone? Call get it whereas come back Congratula being nominated. That's not sure they were you know. And she came over and she said they weren't nominated. I can't catch you artery. What a heartbreak that was? I really such a oh I could not I smiled and I on that she on how I mean Louis. Let's just talk about how you listen. You're just getting started. She was so excited that Robert Stack and then A nominated She's always she said. Oh you've he's got US ahead of you but people that people will realize that there's partial come along. No you Kinda have it on the page. You just can't make it up as you go along along. I guess wonderful parts but but I gotta part quite as and then there was such a terrific Thrill Working Academy Academy at Berlin and they were so wonderful man and I think I told you about taking me along one day deny no no I mean I love the every day. You got a book When you're sitting around wedding he he was such a reader? I such a such a sweetheart really such a great guy I and and with her as well she was so great to me. In fact the whole side we had like a big family in that movie. You know it was a small small cast but we will also close really and and Katie was you know I I got to Newark so well. And and birth and Birchington lunch when he was told told me I should really work out. You know he's talking about you. Know as you know. He was an acrobat in the in the circus and she worked out and he said you know he said you got good strollers. Ah I couldn't help it. They said you got a nice little ash show. Oh blank cash. You had to think about it. Yeah this is fascinating. It's fascinating book you. You made a candidate transition to television. Didn't you and and worked a lot in television. After a certain point I good I did but I also mix it up a theater. I mean movies and theatre as well. I managed to do I familiar very much. Potentially Williams's work work. I know who he is but I can't say I'm not familiar with his way. One of his streak on desire. Were we did that as a attorney anniversary of At the Vic Theater in downtown. La here the music at the and That was Jon voight. They done away. And and then I played Mitch the call Malta and calm on. There was one of the names I was thinking. You know from baby doll but anyway I I did Mitch Wonderful Part and and I've got an had done. I had done done before. And and and Tennessee was their opening night while he was there the night before the opening either and He was accession. I'll tell you about that in a minute. But he He also came Camino real which is a wonderful interesting play on the sixteen blocks on the Camino real a wonderful play and the I did that was a theater in the round at the also downtown at the same music center at the same complex bikes. You know they have. That was the I mean stage I did Kilroy Cumulus than late. He and he's all the way ruins all all over the Sierra marvellous part and incredible par. And it's just a a smashing all and Karen Black was young a young gypsy daughter and and and Victim Ball Had a wonderful cast iron Ted Anyway. Tennessee Decatur hit eleven times. Yeah yeah he really eleven tires and opening night on the well he was there as I shed ahead tonight before opening on to see to see the press night personal of a streetcar and the second night was the opening night I have to. was you know people standing back in the hall corridor behind the stage and it's a big. It's a big A big every huge placed on it. And we're all standing in the hallways. The people can talk anything. Actually English hike. She Tennessee you looking at me From a few yards away just standing there with a big smile on his face snow staring at him and he came over after awhile. And you whisper. Something Might Year and you know Mitch is not the lead Guy. But but he's it's a wonderful part. Call Monica disappointing. Work for swimming Oscar. For when he get it on Broadway All New York removes anyway ten. Does she came over at one point and whisper in my ear. He said you would leave. Man You the lead man. I should've whispered hugh page as opposed to Jon Voight as well and You know I love the and then I was the first night the first night then it overnight and and I had on my on my table the telegram from Tennessee for opening night. You know and I have that framed on underneath the picture that we had taken that night at the party afterwards because there's no way that I had him sign it because I knew I would believe it but it says Earl Your Kilroy you're Mitch thus cover. Wow well yeah. I mean he's to have that. It's an amazing. It's it's I knew. It sounds very hammy updated target Eh. But I'm proud of it. You're proud of that now. I'd like to ask you about the dock. Oxides of the ASS on playhouse ninety. Oh yeah what I remember at. That was even the perimeter back that that was the year before. Look where we did College yeah but that was the facetime you you Kinda spoke rod sailings where it wasn't because that was a rod sailing play wasn't it doc oxides. Yes yes yes. I did know Rod Sterling Point about I I had I left my Asian I which basically was really must say hey. Can you feel gross. But I wanted so badly to do because I love theater I wanted so badly to do a good live television and The the the best television on at the time was like playhouse ninety which is once a week. You Know Ninety Minute program done live whole you know the country a drama and Balk Walk Really Classy and So I would I I left because she wanted to sign me and I'm going to MCI and The very first morning they had they hadn't been meet there at a wine at an in the office as to why he was the the assistant to John. Houseman you know blooding plows ninety taking care of casting and all that and they cast me in a garside of the earth and and I and I was wrong. Surly written handwritten script and Arthur of all people right in it and I co start. With three Dean Jagger and Van Heflin and Kim Hunter I was I was very classy event and rod was so so he was there for all all read throughs and and the rehearsals and the second day I mean after we go into the second day or who was receiving the first day that I was the second day. I'm not sure I went up to. I said 'cause you know writers are offering unapproachable. I mean they they. They feel like actress saying their little corner. Some of them you know and I always. I've never shy. They can the suggestion if I have one and I have to and I should. Did you know I I feel like I'm missing seen here. I said I'm playing this captain inception Who is such an admira this general van Heflin and and at the end? Of course I have. I have the general and these two people Jardim Dragon. Kim Hunter Shot. You know and so that's how I after you've seen it. I assume have you I. I've not been able to find I haven't been able to see and well. I don't know whether you have to do that. But but it's a look but anyway I I said to him I feel like I should be telling him expressing my admiration by But I respect to have for what he did at Saint Petersburg and and for for stalling garage and all the you know always any took on a pad began scribbling. You know and took down those and by Golly the next morning when I walked in handed me the page that he had written Almost liberal for almost Word A lot. I'm sure it was cleaned up better than I told him to. But the thoughts were all their bank. It was it's wonderful because I that was you know. Most most writers are not that available the that You know to you but he was so approachable and we got along great. He had a wonderful humor and he wants to know what city well. He's put it this way. He said this is what I selection. Let me put it this way. You're wrong so but he did. He had a wonderful since he was such a sweet. Hi It's such a delightful man really was I had such admiration in for and and of course for his work you this stuff and and He fought like the devil to get that I mean I didn't realize it when we were doing Twilight zone more happiness. I I think I told you but A year accurate did back I was. I was told that Ethel was offering me a role in the next in the playoffs. Now you're later called The return of Ansel Gibbs was the name of it and it was with melvyn Douglas replay. My father and Mary Astro though she had no scenes together. I played my mother and Diana. Lynn played My girlfriend or something anyway. But I didn't I didn't under- I really didn't like the part. That was an interesting part but I don't really understand the carrot crush. It doesn't something about the character. I don't really get it you know and anyway Mony James My major there at the time it's one of the MCI said well. I gotTa tell you she said I told them what you said and she said well if he doesn't do this. Just forget what house US Ninety you know so so I did it and I wasn't. There's happy with us I would like to. I was not terrible but it just wasn't I just never really understood stoop hell I was doing it by some of the stuff. anyway That's how I ended up with but but the nice thing. Here's a lucky again. If I hadn't done limit I probably wouldn't have done because it was you know after rehearsing. I think I told you this rehearsing one day. One day one one of the first couple of days how down through the parking lot to go home and I ran into Rod Rod serling whom I had not seen for a year. And that's when we begin to talk and he told what he was doing and and about this he said science fiction and I says I said well. It's all said this when he said we've we've offered to Tony Kurdish or twenty years. I can't remember which one but they said they wanted too much money and he said I'm going to send it to you have you. Have you ever see read. Read it and see if you want to do something to that effect and I and I didn't think I told you I haven't having been forbidden planet. I thought another. Oh you know another science fiction show with thirty guys. Spaceship was when I got it. I was just fascinated intrigued by now. I'm pushing go to read the whole trip that supper that night dinner I mean did it. Did it seem like something different at the time was you was. It does seem a bit strange. Or how did you feel about well. First of all first of all reading it I I got Gustavo's reading it. You know I I mean it was just as I did today watching it and all I. It's just super compelling to me you know this guy this loneliness holiness of this thing and and of course I was dying. I love to believe I leapt at the chance to do this character on and we we had to read through and now it's kind of interesting just because there's nobody actually just an easy you know But they they read. It did stuff in between the lines. The action stuff and I was hobby hours. A little little I'm concerned because I'd never done somewhere along the line a two character play I don't really before that or after that I think it was just before though The one of especially high Akao and I told you about that didn't Well since you did you see the bridge on the River Kwai of course yes. Yeah well he was. He was the colonel of the prison camp but he was also back in into the twenties and the thirties he was a big star. Aw here in Hollywood. I'm here. He was a big star and When the war broke out on he went to he went to live and he he? He was torn between Japan between in Los Angeles and the United States as legislators so instead of that he went to Paris and he lived in Paris all through also also the war. The war was finished and took a pain. became an artist A very interesting man and He was coming back to appear At the event for the Academy Awards Time We'd be in the country For the Academy Award Anyway. It was all about that and they had lined him up to do this play. There's two character play where the where the job and went to to to to enemies I bill out of an airplane. Triple plan on an island in the Pacific and turns out. There's one Japanese soldier left on the island and bitter enemies and I and I and how we get had how we're drawn to each other. How what how do we become Cetera et CETERA? The Gimmick was that he and we spoke Japanese. Let me smoking this and this for our interesting without sometimes as I recall but it was It was really interesting if it was a challenge. You I know that means I mean we're trying to convey thoughts and I it was wonderful and It was it was it was exciting to do really burst but I so I think it may have come out I'm not sure they came after before but But I I had. I'm not sure about that. I think it came before I see I see. Yeah it was it was a it was a challenge and and every time I wanted to discuss the character I thought Gee I gotTA gotTa get into this. You know do some heavy work here. You know and Every time we never had a chance to discuss yes The the acting director Robert Stevenson and at the end and we started shooting. And anytime I'd go up to Bob To Talk A to him may have told you this but he said he he usually on the phone. He's always on the phone and so we really. I never talked to him about the character. We never talked about the character And it turns out. He's no religious. We became really good friends. He said that every time I came up to him he doesn't he. Doesn't you WanNa talk about this. And he didn't sent the way he works. You know and he so he would he. He said he would make excuses and always have a phone call. You know every time that might approach it so so was it difficult to do well I was watching today and I and and and I don't I can. I kept thinking. Do I look self conscious but anyway anyway Some of the worst for example. I gotTa said this from four somewhere in print. But but some of the words I wouldn't discussing using Scrooge and a bit of a bit of we'd there was something that he ate for it was Ah stuff I seemed a little strange coming where it seemed a little strange coming out of my mouth you know. I mean it wasn't that I couldn't do it. I wasn't embarrassing but it was just just you know it didn't always fit in my mouth. I understand but You know but it was fun doing it. You know I mean I love doing but as you know You know the first day we shot the very first day. We shot toward getting toward dusk and we have another shot to finish up to do. And his I heard the cameraman reloading. I heard quite loudly. Oh come on camera man. I think he'll do that. No no please go hi. It's a shame that we see. I never saw what the real story he was. What had happened? But it seems that Somehow we didn't have a shot We had we were going to go back the next day. A and they they they will lead to reshoot everything we did and that was in that first year was a killer. I Know Long Day and you know as as the only accurate we're always up there you know and it was very tired but he was getting tired and when I went home that night I i. I didn't feel well and took my temperature and I had a hundred degrees fever. This is falling the first And I took a hot bath and I have. You had to do some pills and stuff and I went back the next day. Other than being Ho Ho paying of stuff little horse I seem seen to be okay but but but that that I was a killer and then have to do over again was was rough as far as I recall. We had to do everything over again. You know I know the direct Didn't really WanNa talk to you about the character. But was rod around. Did he speak too much about it. I always seems like he was there a lot and I was delighted because I could see that he was you know. Please he'd suggestions. I suppose I mostly to the director to the camera and you know I don't remember I don't remember really talking to him either about it. Too in depth. Yes you know It was just you took hold over and said okay. Let's do it you know but I I do. I think I and this was misquoted quoted and I'll say I did make a suggestion once when I was in the didn't realize yet what what what was happening. I didn't realize what what trauma there was behind undoing this whole thing and and how much how much he had How how how how how hard it was he? And how much dependent on being terrific. Doc You know how much you depended on being something that he could sell. Go back to New York himself to the sponsors and and I mean nobody. How many knowing really how If if they thank God nobody kept saying. You know we've got to get this right. We gotta get this. You gotta you gotTa be wonderful. No no nobody did anything like that. And I didn't unrealized You know just how we import to me has never show us for another Rod. serling show but I didn't realize that he had had not not yet sold it that it was not a couldn't go right to the shelf. You know if it was somebody who wanted to they wanted to put on the air you really struggled to do the right thing and Geico. I didn't know that when I made a suggestion. I should you know rod you know. Why don't I when an phonebooth? What am I looking through? And of course the the the names. I heard the laugh because the names I was using all my relatives names that was reading supposed to Belmont ballade vulne. You know that's my mother fell mushy among my stepfather. Centers Block was Anyway to my dad died but anyway I actually what if I. What have I in my frantic? Whatever twelve page and you just Kinda shut in my pocket as I heard the as I saw the police station and they went over to I said you know and then it gets all? Maybe when I'm on the on the stretcher they could fall out take me out of the out of the capsule away you know. And then you know sending you is that maybe it wasn't just a three-man imagination or whatever yeah and and he said He liked the idea but he said we can't. I can't do anything he said. That's the big problem. He said that they don't WanNa do science. Let's fiction and he said they don't want anything that isn't explainable. But I didn't. I didn't realize I had no idea that that it was so many things against getting it on you know but but he actually really good sale have you have you said you have the definitive twilight zone collection. I do. I do that in the book. And this book there and then maybe that's crazy And then also The the original His his sales pitch to the to the to to the to the network and then he goes into that he leaves into ways. Everybody okay. Well that's what I was looking at but but I had no idea that there was so much going on that. There's so many so many strikes against is getting it on but if they hadn't liked it I mean if they hadn't if he had done on something that that that sponsored say well how can I one of the things I had was against the fact that they didn't have a regular cash in on the and he didn't. What do they weren't sure what they were selling at the time or there's some of the sponsors and in workers on confused about? Well how am I going to be there every week or you know the You know But anyway I said that's really anyway that's been explained to me. How look how slim line? He was walking on very careful that we did something explainable and and this certainly does explainable and by the way of course. I didn't know at the time that he based on real on a real situation. You know the the cover of magazine story a Oh cover story on on Time magazine doing that year. about the The experiment there was being done at NASA with with this this astronaut whose name was practically the same thing he said Mike Ferris. I was playing. I think my Ferrell was the name of the guy in an in the The astronaut and they were they were testing if you can stand the loneliness of a trip and do this and do all the chores and do all the things that he's supposed to do you know. And and that's that's that's had stayed in his mind he went to that. And that's what we're Mike. Ferris came from my character. You know you mentioned talking about ripping the page out of the phone book important in your. Did you know that Rod actually wrote a story vision in a book version on in that book. Vision about the STUB. Yes so you know the ticket knew about it because I read about it. I've heard about it since and read about uh-huh and and that's in this book to Because I was not responsible for anything to do with the theater. That was all that was. When I was responsible for we're just bringing up the fact that establishing something like a page out of the bag out of the phone book but I never said anything? We didn't have any and I didn't know you know I would have had take a stab you know to take ticket to get in the theater. There's nobody there To reach in and get a stub take but it better Bonilla wasn't I had nothing to do with the ticket but So I was. I hope nobody ever thinks I'm trying to take credit for something that Rod was twelve rods of Rob's work beyond that he robbed capable of making making decisions all day. Long you know. Yeah but but but I wouldn't even say that if I had known how valuable Louis was you know he's always open for gestures. Yeah so before we spoke you. You would actually watching the episode so how working being in houses I feel. Now what what you think. Well I. You know I've seen it a number of years but not really lately sat down and I don't remember it's it's been many years and I I didn't even remember forever. Release I never saw that that Sales pitch that he does of And and talking about the very three of the shows for the shows that that that eh but they would be viewing so stories. You know about I'd never seen any of that. I buy when when when Where's everybody came on? I found myself reliving on those moments. Yeah I And also I. It's my old age. I suddenly had tears in my eyes watching it. No back a lot of Sweden memories and finally I was. Ah I was yeah. I was watching this highly Mike Ferris partly and partly her own you know whatever but enjoying a lot and I was just a as I said showing giving myself that ice ice-cream Parlor bit you know yeah yeah well I know you did The DVD a few years ago didn't you the DVD commentary. You think that it might be the last time you saw I know I know at the time they call me into do When they were GONNA release released a twelve hundred on the beginning of that sort? I think this is a handful of years ago now and I and he asked me to do a running commentary. I had never done that and then I wasn't really prepared. Imagine do that and I and I really didn't a lousy job of Of watching this show and commenting on watching it. I really had no I I did. I was not educated. Take all games and things that maybe I should have talked about but I just thought that was pretty dull. Hopefully that wasn't what you heard the. I think it's a hard on yourself. It was a good commentary. Believe me it was a good one. L. It's been such a pleasure to speak to you and I know that you've spoken about the twilight I took before and interviews on various things and I'm sure you will do again but considering what a monumental show the twilight zone became an you wear read the fast pace and on screen you the fast leading man I just wondered what your final word on the show and what it became the night that CVs premiered the first episode whereas everybody. I've to the twilight zone audience. Mike Farish who was lying this curreny look up in the sky. And you'll love to the moon. Hey we'll go way up there. We'll be there soon so don't go away. That was October second. Nineteen fifty nine and in less than ten years later July twentieth. Nineteen sixty nine. More than a billion people on Earth listened and washed I as an American astronaut named Neil Armstrong stepped off the lunar landing module Neptune uttering the following words. One small step for man a giant leap for mankind. Promise made promise. Let's can't welcome to the twilight zone. Wow L. I've got in my eyes to be honest that was beautiful That was absolutely beautiful. Thank you I feel honored to have actually been here and heard you say that I wanNA thank you not only speaking to me today. You know for the happiness that you brought to millions of people join your career and from the thousands sounds of twilight zone fans. Thanks for being off as leading man will always love you forty and it is one of the great honors of my life that I got to talk to you so oh thank you so much. God You assume you welcome. You have much to kind but thank you for this I I I am so proud to be a part of of something Ah that Rod serling created and especially this I get letters from all over the world now about the twilight zone and I'm just so honored to be a part of it. Thank you rod. After I recorded that interview I sat for a moment and reflected on on what just happened you know doing this. Show has afforded me some amazing opportunities and experiences. And just when you think that that you've peaked you got an opportunity to speak with the great l.. Hollyman anti hear him say those beautiful words at the end it really. He doesn't care much better than it really was an unforgettable time an an unforgettable experience with a great and wonderful man on so thank you l.. I hope you hear this but thank you so much. You can't imagine how much that meant to me have not conversation but I I also have a good friend of the show to thank for making this happen and his name is Ed Montalvo. And he's one of the friends. I met over and Binghamton last year unease at twilight zone super fun so much so the he and his collection of twilight zone. Memorabilia is going to be featured on on a television show in the US called collectors coal which is on the channel meet TV and it premiers on February second. Twenty t twenty at nine thirty PM Eastern or eight thirty central and I hope to get to see it so Mao let show at our. Thanks for making that into interview happen and check out his wonderful collection on collectors call. So That's mute TV on February second nine thirty eastern and aired. I really cannot thank you enough for sent Nado up now. We're just about to dive into office episode of season. Four of the twilight zone own. And you still have time to get your thoughts onto the show by emailing give voice clip of about five minutes or less to Tom. At the twilight zone podcast outcast dot com and we are talking about the fast episodes of season for called in his image. So this is a slightly new way of presenting the listener the feedback section which. I'm going to try out so please if you want to chime in please do but before we do that. I'm going to put out an episode of the podcast that I created for Binghamton last year to celebrate the sixtieth anniversary and it was a completely redone invasion of affairs twilight zone podcast looking whereas every body so to celebrate this momentus occasion of having the Great L. Hollyman on the podcast. That's what I'm GONNA put in the feed next. And then we'll continue with season four. So I hope you enjoyed read this wonderful time with the twilight zones fairest lead actor. And you know I still can't believe it happened. What a lovely flee man what a magical time not was and I will speak to you soon? Hey go way up there next time. It won't be a dream nightmare ext time it'll be for real. Don't go away. We'll be up there in a little while the night that CVs premiered the first episode. Where's everybody off to the twilight zone? Audience heard my farish. Who is lying is currently look up in the night sky and you'll love to the moon? Hey don't go away up there. We'll be up there soon. So don't go away. That was October second. Nineteen fifty nine nine and in less than ten years later July twentieth. Nineteen sixty nine more than a billion people on Earth listened and watched as an American astronaut. Neil Armstrong stepped off the lunar landing module Neptune Neptune uttering the following words. One small step for man a giant leap for mankind promise made promise kept. Welcome to the twelve inch

Hollywood Paul navy US Russia La Wallace Joan Crawford Hamas George Stevens California Academy Award Virginia James Dean John Wayne Dean Mar Douglas Mass Kirk Henry Holland assistant director president director
WKPWP - Mailbag Friday - Keller & Parks talk Moxley on Jericho podcast, AEW's potential affect on NXT, ROH, WWE, 24/7, Reigns (5-31-19)

The Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast

2:24:30 hr | 1 year ago

WKPWP - Mailbag Friday - Keller & Parks talk Moxley on Jericho podcast, AEW's potential affect on NXT, ROH, WWE, 24/7, Reigns (5-31-19)

"Of quitting your burgers of a copy table. If you want to eat a burger put it on a bar volume instincts to be dubbed, for the new all American cheese further fresh juicy fiefs spastics crispy around the edges. Covered a Jewish cheese and stacked to the ceiling deliciousness knocked that baby Dow with the frosted beer at the bar. Just like those sports. God's intended, the new all America cheeseburger, Buffalo Wild Wings. Please drink responsibly. Bring the whole family over to t mobile and get the awesome iphone ten are on us. When you trade in your old device, he'll be snapping streaming and sharing to your heart's content. Visit a store or call one eight hundred t mobile can get an iphone ten are on us twenty four monthly Bill credits. For well qualified customers plus tax while fine traded hoarding service and finance agreement required. Contact us. People cancelling her credit stop warming balanced sixty four gigs zero down thirty one twenty five per month for twenty four months. Pre-credit price seven forty nine ninety nine zero percents APR one offer perk out. If you're a fan of the Wade, Keller pro wrestling podcast in Wade, Keller pro wrestling Poche shows, have you checked out the POW torch daily Kesselman up, yet it's new for twenty nine thousand nine formerly known as the POW torch. Live cast the Peterlee torch daily cast features a new show every single day, Monday through Friday, every afternoon, a new show, drops Mondays it's may talk for pro wrestling fan. Tuesdays, it's a leap major impact with Mike Andrew covering all eat wrestling impact wrestling and major league. Wrestling, and then Wednesdays it's hardly an Emily with talking honor covering. You guessed it ring of honor, Thursdays. It's WT toxin exte- with Kelly just and Tom and Harley and Fridays. It's the best of the people you torch life gassed, where I pick a show from our archives, going back about ten years now covering a major event to major story featuring one of my favorite interviews from over the years. And then on weekends we go live with the deep dive with rich fan on Saturday nights were Rick van, Goghs in-depth on a single topic with special guest and then on Sunday nights longtime progressing torch newsletter columnist. Greg parks. His live with wrestling night in America on non pay-per-view nights. He's live at eight eastern taking your calls talking about recent major events in professional wrestling from all promotions. WWE annex, t ring of honor neutral pan, and more or previewing upcoming big events, including the latest developments in announced matches. So check that out. That is the POW torch daily cast lineup. All you have to do a search p w torch on your podcast app or go to our homepage. PW torch daily cast dot com on that page. You'll find links to the upcoming live weekend, shows and links to the most recent post that you can download or stream right off our website. You can find out more about the lineup to at PW torch. Daily cast dot com or search PW torch on your podcast app. They are free and waiting for you right now. That's torch, daily cast dot com or search you've torch if you shop at Amazon, I have a request when you shop at Amazon, don't go to John dot com. That sounds weird. How you gonna shop at Amazon, if you don't go there. Well, they'll go directly there start at PW torch dot com. Com slash Amazon. That's p w torch dot com slash Amazon. When you go there, there's a giant Amazon logo click on it. It takes you right to the Amazon homepage where you were heading anyways, but that small detour tells Amazon, we sent you there and when they get that message they sent us a commission on everything that you buy. So it's a great way to support us without having to do anything different other than when you shop at Amazon start at p w torch dot com slash Amazon. That's PW torch dot com slash Amazon. Thank you so much for your support. Quitting your burgers on the coffee table. If you wanna eat a bird, or put it on a bar full your instincts to be dubbed, for the new all American cheese, voter, fresh juicy spastics crispy around the edges. Covered a Jewish cheese and stacked to the ceiling with deliciousness and knocked that baby down with a frosted beer at the bar, just like the sports God's intended, but new all America cheeseburger. At Buffalo Wild Wings. Please drink responsibly. Bring the whole family over to t mobile think. It's awesome iphone ten are on us. When you trade in your old device, you'll be snapping streaming and sharing to your heart's content. Visit a store or call one eight hundred t mobile can get an iphone ten are on us. You twenty four monthly Bill credits. For low qualified customers, plus tax while trade importing service and finance agreement required. Contact people cancelling our credit stop more balanced sixty gig zero down thirty one twenty five per month for twenty four months, pre-credit rice, seven forty nine ninety nine zero percent. APR one offer per out. Now, PW torch aunts, freak her bring you the Wade Kello pro wrestling podcast. It's time for Wade and his co host to dive into the listener mail bag. All right. Gregg, our first question comes prawns, Scott, who says I was never a fan of quote Ambrose, but I really respect him for just totally being honest about the toxicity in WWE. Those great interview with Jericho in insight into the way, WWE works. It explains what, why Roman acts the way he does he just listens. And dean didn't your guys thoughts on the interview I've talked a lot about it already. But Greg, you haven't had a chance to. Talk about it, yet you just heard it on Thursday afternoon. And I am curious for your thoughts obviously you knew going in this was hyped up. Did it live up to the hype when you heard it, and maybe specifically Scott saying to you know how'd you feel about Ambrose his honesty and did it help? You understand maybe Roman reigns. A little bit, too. It did I didn't necessarily think about the rains aspect of it while I was listening to it. But yeah, it was an enthralling. Listen and people are drawing parallels to the punk interview on cold Cabanas podcast a few years ago. And there are a lot of similarities to it from this, obviously punks has more to do with the injury aspect of it in Ambrose, although it is aside from that, largely creative, you know, from punks point of view, and the creative is what stuck with Ambrose slash Moxley here with this. But you know there's just so much to take. I don't even know where to dig in really. My fear. I guess is WWE the people that are that they're getting in recruiting. And the people who are fans now who will go on to become future WWE stars. This is what they know this is the creative process that they know. And they, they don't know any different some of them. And the fear is that this is the new normal for, for the wrestlers who will come in and WWE, they won't be like dean Ambrose because being handed a script is not something that they know any different from. So, you know, it's been so embedded now into the WWE culture backstage, and with the wrestlers and even with the fans that, you know, it was one thing to go to transition from, you know, if you came from WCW, or WD, WWE, or even the people who are in WWE, during one era, who stayed in head to get acclimated to this over scripted era, that we're in now, that's when you can see people kinda throw their hands up and say this is insane. Why are we doing this? But the longer this goes on the more people come into WWE thinking this is how it's supposed to be, and the fewer Jon Moxley is that we get who will say, no, it can be better than this. It can be different than this. I'm going to go over here now. Luckily, we have a w coming in which is going to blow up the creative process that WWE has established so there will be at least a competing way to do things X stage in a competing creative process, I guess, but my fear is with, you know, the more people who are, like, Moxley, the more apt WWE would be to change things and the more people are like Roman reigns. Will they'll take what they get the more it? Makes WWE in Vincent, man. I think that this is the way this is okay. And we've seen that, it's, it's not it's creatively unfulfilling for the wrestlers and it's to be honest creatively unfulfilling for the fans to. So that's, that's one of my big takeaways that I don't know that anyone else has really touched upon that aspect of it. Yeah, I think one of the things that struck me listening to the interview, N people's analysis of it, and thinking about it today was how in a way I don't know that Vincent man will be all that bothered by John Moxley's attitude or approach, because I think w w in that culture and what he's built in the last fifteen plus years. There is in fear of compliance in that it isn't. We're a promotion who's rounding up a bunch of outlaw wrestlers, who are independent contractors who have figured out who they are, and learn how to draw money and we just kind of organize them in. It on shows, which is essentially what the business was for very long time and restrooms, traffic from territory to territory negotiate their best price come and go freely there. We're not contracts for of any kind. Most of most of pro wrestling's history, and I think the contrast is emailer points out between Roman reigns in Jon Moxley is a perfect contrast. They travel together. They talk wrestling together their friends. I think Moxley and rains are closer than than Moxley and Seth it just in terms of hanging out. You know, they're kind of different people. So you have this bond and they get along. But at the same time they have a different approach Roman reigns is a somewhat detached professional. He was raised in the business. Sometimes when you're raised in a family business, it's different than when you were drawn to it from scratch, you know, it was almost like preordained. It's sometimes you fight against it a little bit. And push back. And then he just ended up. Well, you know, the furniture building wasn't for me. So I'm going to I'm going to try this wrestling thing that my family's done. It wasn't like a lifelong passion where Jon Moxley dean Ambrose he was thinking about it as a teenager, and he turned eighteen and mcgary interviewing Eddie Gilbert back in the. Late eighties early nineties, I think it was around nineteen ninety probably. And he was like, oh, yeah, I graduated high school, and I got my car and I drove to wrestling training school. That was that was going to be my life and I knew it. And that's who mocks is. That's not who reigns. It. Seven eleven has more drinks than times. You've been caught singing in your car and randomly, Rick stored in your brain combined. Choose from flavour-filled slurpy, and big gulp drinks, Chris coconut water energizing cold. Brew and hot coffee. Fresh organic cold press. Juices, invigorating energy, drinks cooling purely ice teeth refreshing, dear part one hundred percent natural still and sparkling spring water. Plus many more only participating seven eleven stores. Bring the whole family over to t mobile think. It's awesome iphone ten are on us. When you trade in your old device, you'll be snapping streaming and sharing to your heart's content. Visit a store or call one eight hundred t mobile can get an iphone ten are on us twenty four monthly Bill credits for qualified customers, plus tax while trade in Gordon service and finance agreement required. Contact us. People cancelling her credit. Stop more balanced sixty four gigs zero down to thirty one twenty five per month for twenty four months. Pre-credit price seven forty nine ninety nine zero percent. APR one offer perk out. So grades sorta like I don't have preconceived notions of how this works. And, and I don't really have a sense of. Who I want to be or, or a strong will to try to change the inertia in the direction that I'm being given by people who run this company, and so he's sort sorta, like yeah. What do I say? Okay. I know I make this work, you know, he might you might go this seems weird, but he tries to make it work. Dean John is like thinking, oh, my God. I, I have a total idea of who I am and how I can draw money. And I'm a rockstar. I'm an artist. I wanna I wanna have that, that creative expression, the freedom to express myself creatively in that is in my DNA. So for Vince McMahon, I think he's like, not good riddance, but sort of like, well, it wasn't meant to be. And he's, he's okay with having wrestlers who you know, he want he wants a little pushback, a little input, but he also wants them to in the end submit to his vision and his vision for Ambrose. He, he cast dean as an actor in a play where he had a role that he envisioned dean playing and it evolved. Based on dean's personality and skill set. But it also was just something Vince wanted as part of a sports entertainment, cast of characters. Whereas Montes, like, wait a second. I'm here to portray myself and be true to myself inventors like, no, you're a human body who trained to be a wrestler slash sports. Entertainer and I have a vision for someone I want a character on the show, and you're the closest to fitting it, and please do what I say. And I it's, it's fine if both work in both draw money, then there's room for both. If one is way, better than the other than one will win out. That was one of my thoughts kinda here twenty four hours afterwards. And I think the mail or contra brings that up great Roman is, is less successful than I think he would be because he is so compliant and go along get along laid back, he super-popular behind the scenes people gravitate towards them. They love him. And then they watch only they watch him on TV. And they're like, where did that guy? Go he disappears when he walked through the curtain now. He's just this character. Vince created enrollments okay with it because in the infamous. Words said dozens of times, he said, I just going to do what I'm told them hope to get rich and that's fine. He's a professional he clocks in and out in. That's what he does. I think fan since then, and I think that's why some pushback against him because they want to see that, that fire that Jon Moxley has. And they, they want that Vincent, man feels he doesn't need that he wants people to play a certain role, and he'll take care of the rest. Yeah. And I guess I see this two different ways and I can see both arguments here. When you listen to Jon Moxley explain his side, and he gets into very specific incidents of what happened in what his feeling was and all this kind of stuff and you sit there and listen to his side of it. And you listen to his reason to argument for why he should have more control of the character. And you sit there and say, yeah. That makes sense. That, that makes all the sense in the world, why he would want to come up with this stuff why he would at least want to if not have complete control of the character at least have more of a fifty fifty share of what he says, then what he was given which was more ninety ten at best, I think, in favor of WWE's wordsmith. So I completely get that. And then, you know you kind of look at what WWE wants this to be where they want to be like every other show on television where you. Heavy writer's room and you have writers come up with words that are said by certain characters, and I get that. I, I mean it's, it's understandable. The problem is when the buck stops with one guy, and the television that he's produced as Moxley. So eloquently, put it has not really been. Top shelf programming for the last you know, we'll ever far back. You want to go. That's when your problems start and you have these writers and you, you do kind of feel bad for the owners at least the way Moxley portrays him where the riders will tell Moxley, okay, you gotta say this, this, and this moxy says, well, that sucks and the writers like, yeah, I know about, right? You know, that's kind of their, their their, their response in their hands are tied a little bit. And you know, it was the one story where it was, it was a race to get the one script indefens- before he saw the other one with the verbiage that they knew Vince would like that was basically trash in Moxley, his mind. I mean that's, that's. That does not show. Well to WWE's creative process, which Oxley said, look, I can't even put into words how the process works. I don't even understand it. And he's there every day like he's backstage it all the TV's seven he still doesn't understand how it works. There's gotta be a way to streamline that or something like that because I think he really showed the issues with creative, and the other thing is, and I know people have hammer this home to death. It's everything that we've been saying it was, you know, the people who, who analyze the, the business, the, you know, the torch and all the audio that we do hear the complaints. We've had in the issues we've had with the programming are the same issues actually talking about. So, you know, we're not pulling stuff out of our hat here. This is this is all been confirmed. Basically, in podcast in this talk is Jericho episode. Yeah, good points. In the I tried to be. We like fair. Let's people sides. Here's Vince presentation. I mean, I firmly believe you're better off, if you if you give if you loose you give up the control yourself and listen to the bachelor wrestlers vision of what they should do. And that is I'm much more in the camp of a more collaborative process and, and Vince, being a little a little, I'm trying to think of the polite word for it, flexible in realizing, maybe his idea of what's funny and what's best for character isn't necessarily, what's going to connect with that eighteen to forty nine demographic, that FOX in USA covet, but is not where it was a year ago or five years ago. Granted this week bra was talk show on Monday night on cable in terms of total viewers. I believe in, for sure. In the eighteen to forty nine demo, smackdown was the number one show in the eighteen to forty nine demo on Tuesday night on cable behind a couple of shows on Fox News, maybe a couple of others in terms of total viewers, but those were mostly people older. So falling outside the advertising devil that said, I say this all the time FOX and NBC universal paid premium dollar not to be barely number one in that demo but to become number one in that demo. So if the if the view with viewership dropping year over year, and in a way that I think it doesn't need to. To the degree that it is. That's I think that is a result of fans. For instance, not feeling connected to the top, star Roman reigns. And a Bruce Mitchell makes the case. Oh, no. It's good heat with Brock Leser being portrayed as a guy who doesn't wanna be there. But I think that would he's worked very hard to present a brand where you feel good about the WWE brand. Even though they have the real life family that runs it play heels, but they put all these feel good videos on charity, work and stuff. And I think fans do present the idea that this title that in a medicine, they know management has control over. They just keep giving it back to a guy who's pretty cavalier about his presentation. And how often appears and all that, I think they so there's things working against it. And when Roman reigns is super pushed as the top guy and fans don't feel he cares as much as they think he should terms of his demeanor, not all fans, but I think a lot of fans do when I hear that enough. I think it's more than just me projecting. And certainly crowds booing him for years back that up, I think that you could avoid that if you give wrestlers will little more agency a little more creativity. Get them more involved. And like you said about the writers, I, my, my impression that I've been given as writers are very happy with what the inset that they are the middlemen in an offering relationship between wrestlers and Vince McMahon, not all of them, but some of them get what's wrong, but they are living check to check not hunt. You know they're not making hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions like wrestlers, who have enough socked away that they can, you know, they're not panicked about their financial state, if they got fired, and they have the leverage to protest the writers feel rather expendable interchangeable, and so that's a more difficult situation for them, and they cheer, I think a lot of them privately and in communicate with each other. And sometimes the wrestlers going, this is what Vince needs to here. We don't have we. Have the power to say. And you've certainly done enough interviews with former WWE create a team members here at the torch to know how that process works into no, the frustrations that come with it and to know that, you know, these guys they're not pitching necessarily, what you see is the end product on, Ron smackdown. They're pitching, some good ideas, and some of them have talked about him with you. And there's just that frustration. And I think you know, one of the. Disappointments. I know if disappointments the right word, but coming out of this podcast is some of the things you see on our our smackdown. You think well, you know, WWE is this machine? And they're pumping out all this product, maybe they're aware that this isn't the greatest stuff, but they're, they're content creators. They just need to push things out there, so they can get to the next big show. Whatever like that. The fact that Moxley portrays Vince as thinking the lions and the stuff that he's giving Moxley to do. And say is really as good as he thinks it is. Like that's kind of the scary part. We've all kind of felt that Vince is gotten out of touch, and Moxley gives that confirmation that, yes. All the stuff that, you know, the, the shots that, that dean Ambrose was getting on TV when he was talking complaining about the smell and wearing the gas mask that was all stuff that Vince not only liked but thought was. Great and would get great heat Ambrose. And it's like. That's that was one of those supporting things where you know, you were hoping that was just something that they just put on TV just to get to the next angle, or next storyline or whatever like that. But to know that Vince really loved that stuff. That's disheartening. Yes. Yes. Before we continue with Greg. I want to let you know that this weekend. We'll have a new interview here on the Wade, Keller pro wrestling podcast feed, but not going to tell you who yet other than you one hundred percent are gonna want to hear it. So hit refresh this weekend. For a new news, making interview that will be the conversation of wrestling. So tune in this weekend for that. So with that teaser start hitting refresh. If you're listening to this on Saturday or Sunday we'll, we'll be getting it up this weekend. So check back here on the bluefin Wade killer person podcast feed. Instead of our interview classic. We've got a new interview with you. You're gonna want to hear. Hi. It's Jamie, progressive's number one number two employee. Leave a message at the hey Jamie. It's me, Jamie. This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your Capella group, mad harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean, you're the guy always helping people find coverage options with the name your price tool. It should be you giving me the pep talk. Now, get out there, hit that high note, and take mad harmony all the way to nationals this. Yes. Sorry, it's pitchy. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Bring the whole family over to t mobile can get awesome iphone, ten are on us when you trade in your old device, you'll be snapping streaming and sharing to your heart's content. Visit a store or call one eight hundred t mobile could get an iphone ten are on us twenty four monthly Bill credits. For well qualified customers, plus tax while traded hoarding service and finance agreement required. Contact us. People cancelling her credit stop more balanced sixty four gigs zero down thirty one twenty five per month for twenty four months credit for I seven forty nine ninety nine zero percents APR one offer perk out. Let's, let's at the table and introduce ourselves. This is the way Keller pro wrestling podcast, the mailbag Friday edition for may thirty first two thousand nineteen I'm weed killer host of the program, and I'm joined by Peter, you torch newsletter columnist and host of the torch daily casts Sunday edition. Wrestling night in America. Greg parks. Greg, great to have you here on the mailbag. Thanks for having me, wait. Yeah. Absolutely. So much to talk about. Let's actually, let's give your Twitter account out so people can can follow you on Twitter. Sure at Greg 'em parks. I usually tweet during the big shows that'll be tweeting during the takeover show tomorrow night. And usually during Ron smackdown on their loved interact with the fans who are left watching on smackdown. Anyway. So there's I mean not to get off on a tangent here. But man, when you compare the Twitter action of today compared to years ago. It's amazing how much of a drop off there is. Just a the how many people are talking about the show on Twitter. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. An it's, it's I think it concerned going into the fall. Absolutely. So this Sunday night, you talked with Andrew, so check about eighty WW nothing and then also impact wrestling the state of impact wrestling that was part of the wrestling that in America show Sunday night. And then this Sunday night, you're back. Do you have any any plans other than talking next takeover and previewing super Shoda? Those are the two big ones. I'll have Justin James on there who is an exte- specialist for PW torch dot com. He will join me to talk about an x t takeover Sunday night. Eight PM eastern time PW torch, daily cast dot com. Excellent, excellent co let's, let's go to a second questions. Speaking of a WWE, nothing. Brian, h says, can you explain to me? Why WWE would be concerned in the slightest about eighty w the TV shows are not airing head to head the impetus for the Monday night war. Night war. They are not competing for pay per view dollars. In fact, WB network as much better value in AWS's to review their pricing. Schedule to attract the average wrestling fan and no, upper echelon wrestlers will be prone to jump ship. What's the impetus to do? So am I missing something they exist in two different universes? And rarely we'll directly compete. Why would w w we be concerned Gregory spots. Well, I disagree that they're not going to be competing over talent. And I think if you listen to John Moxley's interview on talk Jerko, that's a prime example of someone who could have been paid. I think he gave the example ten million dollars if they had offered him that, like, what he stayed those who are creatively. Unsatisfied can go to a e w get big money there because toady cod. And the confidently are willing to spend now that doesn't mean they're going to spend on everybody. But if you have value and our creatively dishearten. By WWE then yeah. I think e w would be a real option. They're probably not going to have their ostracize WWE. And there's already some discussion that they may have reached their roster limit at this point. But that's always fluid. And if there's a very good talent in WWE, who is looking to go to e w I'm sure that they would be open to, to somebody coming in. So I think for talent, especially when you, you know, annex t was getting the top in detail under contract, the Matt riddles the Keith lease and all of that, all of a sudden, now you've got a competitor to get all this talent on the indie scene. Let alone people going from WWE to a W so, yeah, I think absolutely tail is going to look at a WWF, now it may take months, six months year before we get a real feel for what a w is doing as far as TV. But if they're TV. Is. Two-thirds is good as the pay per view that we saw last Saturday night and creatively. It's the buzz and it's the cool thing that I think you're gonna see a lot of WWE talent say, I'm not creatively satisfied here. I think that can be more creatively satisfied, and I have something to offer aid of you so absolutely. I think talent is going to be big factor here. And that's going to be a big market of competition between WWE w I think they should be concerned too in that there's only so many hours a week wrestling fans are going to watch wrestling. And if you put wrestling on three hours a night, seven days a week. There are some watch everything, but some fans are going to peel off at five shows others are going to peel off at three shows. Others are going to peel off at two shows. So just by definition. There's a lot of NBA games on TV. I like watching the NBA, but I don't watch all of them, even if they add more nights, I'm not gonna watch more. I'm going to pick and choose. And I'm going to pick and choose heck sports in general. The Minnesota Twins are doing great this year. I'm watching them more than I am other than I haven't past years, if a w is a better product people who watch wrestling somewhere in the between casual and ultra hardcore and that's how I am as a sports fan somewhere between those zones. I'm gonna pick and choose the product. That's better that I'm more interested in watching the teams work citing that it's more enter. It's a more more entertaining sport. And, and that I'm more invested in well, I get invested in not just the lettuce ISM of a game. But the jerseys and the personalities in the context of how the games matter and my history watching that team or that sport. That's eighty w that is where eighty w can outshine WWE outta the gate, they can have wrestlers fans care more about because they connect to them more because they're not scripted by seventy some. Something your old man. Overriding a bunch of young people with other, I'd younger people with other ideas, and some older people with other ideas, perhaps, like Patterson or whomever and the rest of themselves. So if Awa was on TNT, a major cable network. One of the very top tiered cable networks, and they're putting out a product. That's better in the eyes of a lot of fans. Some people are going to watch AWS skip, both Ron smackdown, or only watch Ron smackdown occasionally when they hear something good about it or want to sample it. So just by definition. It's a threat in that way. Also, WWE network costs one hundred one hundred twenty dollars a year. So this idea that it's this great value. We'll totally great value, if you'd like the product and are watching in or watching network shows. But if you're watching or dreading these seven hour marathon of a pay per view with matches that you don't care about are the matches you care about don't start till it's past way past bedtime. That's, that's very different. That, that, that is an expendable expensive one hundred twenty dollars. Is an expendable expense. Even if it would hurt to miss out on takeovers, because then you can go take that hundred twenty dollars in watch two or three of the quarterly, eighty w pay per view of events. And if they stay at forty nine forty nine ninety nine you're gonna watch two or three for the price of WWE network. You know, somewhere in that range, and if that if you're only going to watch three or four WWE events or two or three in a whole year that you really cared about. That's a tradeoff. You'll, you'll make that trade off to watch something you really really really care about in exchange for a lot of things that you don't care about for around the same price. So I think that's another another way to look at. It also AWS going after fans that don't that don't that aren't WB fans. And that's where WWE can go. Hey, if they succeed, and we succeed, that's fine. Good wrestling ten on one night, tends to lead to improved ratings on other nights impact often benefited from a good re-, a good stretch of Ron smackdown programming, and then it would be weird. But you see ratings go down for impact win fans were just disgruntled with Ron, Ron smackdown some of that, seasonal trends, and they just sort of run parallel to each other. But it did seem like there was a correlation to I am not a fan of wrestling right now, or I'm excited and people would actually congregate to another brand, if they were excited so AWS good. I think fans will actually be more open to getting invested in WWE, if the product is good. So those are some of my thoughts to truly embracing your complexities means rejecting anything that can hardly, you are, like smoking cigarettes, which can damage nearly every part of your body. Tap. The bannered Seymour, this free life freedom to be tobacco-free. Introducing the new buttermilk crispy chicken biscuit at McDonald's. We don't need that music made with tender chicken. Let's lose the echo on a warm buttermilk biscuit perfect, the juicy simplicity of our buttermilk, crispy chicken biscuits speaks for itself. Get it now for just three bucks and get a two dollars sausage mcmuffin with egg or one dollars small hot coffee. All from the one two three dollar menu. Simply your breakfast at McDonald's. Crisis and participation may vary. Be combined with any other. Offer combo meal. Yeah. Going back to this TV discussion is you. You have some people who watch on smackdown, or raw or smackdown who are just strict WWE fans. They don't know what else is out there. They don't care. Right. You have some who watch WWE raw or smackdown because they're wrestling fans. And for some people, that's all the wrestling, they get they don't get impact on pursue because they don't get the pursuit channel. They don't get a B in sports so they don't get him. L W. They don't get other wrestling. So they're wrestling to watch is, if there are people who have cable, and they're not, you know, the technologically savvy, where they're getting the network or they're getting all these other avenues online to watch wrestling. They're watching our smackdown. Now of a sudden, you have on the same cable package that you would get USA network is TNT, and now, eighty w comes, well, if you're a wrestling fan in AWS, putting on a better product. You may start watching that rather than rar smacked on because that fills the wrestling hole. So for you, and it would be theoretically, a better product. So that's you know another concern. Like you said, a W is kind of going after the, the lapsed fan, Cody Rhodes said that quite a bit. But in advertently may be for them that they're going to get some of those fans who you know, make Ron smackdown viewing habit, almost just because it is a habit because it's eight PM on Monday night. What do I do? I watch raw and, and so, you know, they could draw viewers to Awa just based on the fact that they're wrestling fans. And if AWS a better product, that's where the eyeballs are gonna go. Yes. And I hope that in any, I mean, I hope that good Awa product leads to a better WWE product and they can put pressure on them. And don't think that if AWS getting a lot of praise and traction in the ratings that WWE won't think. Okay. They're doing something that we need to pay attention to because that happened before in the nineties with Eric Bischoff. With his vision for nitro. So. It. They are on their radar but there might be some denial or trepidation, or let's wait and see some combination of all of that in terms of how much attention to we need to pay to them yet. But Chris Jericho and dean Ambrose now Jon Moxley in particular Vince might not Vinci's Cody, as you know, you know, Christian cage a guy who okay went to another group, and he was a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Christian and impact wrestling. No big deal in Kenya. Mega he probably has almost no clue who he is or what is talent is and the young bucks, little take team that he'd be jogging out on main event. So it's weird, but like he's not connected enough to know that those are those that collectively that, that, that is a that roster is a threat to him or appeals to wrestling fans but d- Ambrose and Chris Jericho has his attention and others along the way, I think, well, but mostly I think this is going to wait and see how they deliver in the ratings. On those first couple of weeks on TNT this, this is a high tide raises all boats situation. Like we hope that this is it's not going to be the Monday night wars, because it's not direct competition. But you hope that Awa comes out and has a slick product that is light years ahead of WWE in terms of look and feel and production and that forces WWE to raise its game and then just like the Monday night wars, did it attracted more people to the products in general. So you've got to you would have to very good products, quality products, and lots of people watching. I mean, that's, that's the ideal scenario that I think a lot of fans are hoping for. By virtue of, of AWS TNT time slot. All right. Let's move to another question. Includes awa. This is from Jason from Glasgow Scotland. I watched Awa and listen to the VIP roundtable, this week, I was pretty aligned with your views weight, and that was a bit worried at the beginning, but overall the show was phenomenal. I did find it hilarious though, that the first wrestler introduced on AWS battle, Royal wasn't even looking at the camera, I particularly enjoyed the analysis of the throne spot hadn't even considered that this was Cody taking back his father's legacy from triple, h I'm mmediately thought this was a much broader statement, the long-running narrative has been that the future of the business is in the hand to triple, h I saw this Cody NA w saying overtly, you are not the future. We are. But maybe the two interpretations are the same or can coexist on a broader note, comics and wrestling us such an intertwined fan base, Vince borrow, the WB universe from the marvel universe by peeling to the most hardcore fan, boys and fostering goodwill, marvelous created the most successful. We'll be franchise in history. Surely even the Wall Street analysts must be telling Vince to stop attempting to make his wrestling show. Appeal to people who are not wrestling fans will competition force a pivot here or will, the massive profits ensure more of a leaning into the entertainment so to speak, the non wrestling entertainment as a business analyst myself. I find it really difficult to encourage change based on the metrics that w WBZ uses to measure their success. Yeah. Greg, I talk about that all the time. How they're Vince is looking at record revenue. And I think he's turning off the temp the more immediate. He's looking at the climate of his company, but not looking at the temperature gauge and he has control more control over the product that is turning off fans in the short run. And he's leaning on in counting on the guaranteed money that's coming in and the inertia from network subs, and the Saudi Arabia money, and most of all the new TV money and he's not looking at those smaller, but more haptic and relevant feedback mechanisms that are all down attendance is down ratings down network, subs down, certainly full price upside down and stagnant when they thought they'd be growing with all the international expansion. So Greg, your thoughts on everything. Jason brought up the worst thing to happen to WWE creatively. Probably is that FOX deal because that is the. That, that is something that WWE invincible man can point to whenever anyone tries to whatever Jon Moxley comes along and saying, why are we doing this? This is stupid. This is terrible and their excuse me. Well, we just got one hundred million dollar deal. So we know what we're doing or a billion dollar deal. So we know what we're doing, and they can use that as an excuse, every time, someone questions anything they do creatively that, while it was good enough to get this billion dollar FOX's. So I mean, that was probably the worst thing to happen to WWE in a creative sense because that just gives them a blanket excuse for whatever comes out of Vince McMahon's brain. And, and we're seeing that weekly, you know with every week that ticks by we're getting closer to, to WWE on FOX and the ratings they've shown an uptick lately, but it's so incremental, it's hard to imagine it continuing on that path into October. WWE. I mean, it's they're flying along like nothing's wrong almost, you know, we've seen the wildcard deal and we've seen some cosmetic changes that have no real impact on, on what they're doing creatively. So it's just that, that deal is that that safety barrier that allows them to continue thinking that, that what they're doing is good for the company creatively. And I would tend to disagree. You'll do it right. To get your hands on tools. You can count on. And at lower prices lows, does it right to it savings during craftsman days per unit? Take advantage of great deals like a craftsman twenty max for tool combo kit, featuring a drill impact driver. Reciprocating saw and task life for just one hundred forty nine dollars and pick up a seventeen inch gas string trimmer for only one hundred twenty nine dollars, whatever projects are on your list. Do it right for less start with Lowe's. Offers valid through six five. US only. No, an ad from dad. All right. Save money on car insurance when you bundle home and auto with progressive gotta take these off right? What is this? Wow. Where did you get this? I'm talking to you with the hair. Yeah. Where did you get this good stuff, solid? That's not veneer that solid stuff. Progressive can't save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates in other insurance. Discounts not available in all states or situations. Throw a couple numbers numbers out there, because I think people have this perception that ratings have just been going down a little bit every year. And it's just the way it works because, you know, younger people replacing older people, and they're more, they're more into streaming and looking at their laptops, and watching highlights on YouTube two years ago in the stretch of time after wrestlemainia, starting with the first raw after the day after wrestlemainia so kind of post wrestlemania season two years ago, the average of stretch of time during that eight weeks because rate weeks pass now one point seven. So that was two years ago last year. The rating went up one point seven four they did better last year during that stretch than the year before. So it isn't just a nonstop drop drip, drip, drip downward slope this year that eight week average one point five zero oh, no one point four nine, I wrote it up, and I shouldn't have one point four nine so the. There is a that is a sharp percentage wise drop off from last year. And it is a big drop in. They lost what they gained last year from the year before. So when we talk about that instant feedback from fans, do they like what you're offering them there. No offering on smackdown quote more top stars since the wildcard rule. And that's not know Roman reigns on smackdown hasn't made a difference. So I just ruled that out there, and that, that, that's the ticket, I think should be alarming, but they're insulated from events insulated from having to think too hard about it, because they're just they're just aiming for that one billion dollar revenue year. How about the? He made the point about just appealing to wrestling fans and how marvel universe is doing that. Well, I think that's what AWS master plan is like I mean, I think it's just instinctual. It's not like let's don't decide on a strategy. That's just that's just where their instinct, directs them is. Let's just appeal the people who love pro wrestling, and, and people who liked to see larger than life personalities, bombast stick over the top, or at compelling personalities of ballot out in exciting fight scenes and yell at each other about it before and afterwards. And let's, let's not pretend that we're here to do anything else other than that. We're not trying to peel the people who don't like that. That'd be crazy. Then we should be in a different business, and it's going to be really interesting. And Todd Martin talked about this on the Thursday flagship yesterday. He was real optimistic and because he's had for years. I've been doing podcasting with him now. He's his attitude. Is there is the Johnson era people? Make excuses for CEOs goods was this, and that, and sometimes I make the case for, for sina being a stabilizing mainstream. Force coming out of a difficult time. Mainstream media wise and company perception wise with drug deaths. And Chris wa heck dating back to Owen Hart. I mean, a lot of things. So I make that case for John is sort of a defensive of the on the, on the positive side of that era. But Todd's contention is they're arresting fans out there were not being served, and they will just absolutely show up in support in much larger numbers than anyone is, is really factoring in accounting for, if there's a wrestling promoter who does a really good job on a big budget with talented wrestlers overly appealing to wrestling fans instead of trying to assume wrestling fans will watch and appealing to people who don't like pro wrestling, which is still so weird to me. Yeah. I think WWE has strayed so far from being pro wrestling. And I think they have finally become sports entertainment, as Vince McMahon has been talking about for decades that there is room for a real pro wrestling alternative, where it is the wrestlers having an agency over their characters where it's less scripted and things like that. And a focus on the clean finishes and everything like that. So I think there is a market for that because WWE has strayed. And that's their choice had strayed so far from those concepts that made pro wrestling pro wrestling in the first place. Absolutely, John from Auburn. Australia says, is there any chance that Sammy's Zane saints line? You could have asked me about eighty w that comment from raw becomes the historical equivalent of Tony shivani saying that'll put butts in seats regarding Mick Foley during the Monday night war when fully won the title. Please discuss. I mean, they're very different, but in a way the Sami comment, and it's what matters is the perception. I've still haven't vast a lot of people trying to figure out like what that was about. And if Vince had an agenda of Sammy winged it, what was really going on there? And I've heard the answers, I can't quite can't quite settle in on being confident that, that I know if there is one guy said, you're assuming there was a strategy, and that's kind of. At this point. What I'm good at what was to strategy. We'll Sammy strategy. What was an someone just they meant it? I mean they're being funny, but there are also being serious in this is somebody on the roster. Just going. You're assuming there was a strategy there. So I think that it wasn't ridiculing something in the moment that actually backfired to the point that it drove people from that show to the other show instantly. But in a broader sense, it, Awa was mentioned on raw that Lee. How long did it? How long did it take to get mentioned Enron a long time? Yes. Yes. So in that sense. Yeah, it's not. I mean, people can say, well, it's not the same thing 'cause they're not head and people in flip channels right away. But it legitimized I think in the eyes of a lot of fans that eighty w is on Vinci's mind to the degree that he's pretending he doesn't care. So he's going to mention them. But it's that Vincent man doubles reverse psychology trick that he tries to do where he's like, I'm gonna pretend I don't care by mentioning them, but that's really a tell and reveal that he really does care because he went. To the trouble, unlike with TNA to let everybody to know he doesn't care which shows he does care. That's the Jedi mind trick that he does that Jon Moxley talked about on the Jerko podcast. Yeah, I, I really don't know what to make of it. And like you said, it's hard to, you know, this was savings ain't doing this on his own, then we just kind of throw, what away that this was not even speak, man attempt to lower AWS people's eyes by just making it a throwaway line or whatever like that. Whatever his intention was, but I was still didn't react in a gorilla like Vince did not react and gorilla. And they didn't cut the segments short take take, like, I don't know what that means, but it wasn't which do there. But it also wasn't like overtly scripted to say at that moment. So that's that's hard. It's hard to figure out, you know, this is, I guess, part of me wants to think that WWE they always try to shoehorn topical references into their into their programming. Whether it's game of thrones reference, whether it's whatever it is. And Awa just happened to be at least a month a certain segment of their fans something that, that fans were aware of. At that time. So mentioned it because, hey, we mentioned a lot of popular things on this show, but yeah, it's it was out. I wasn't expecting them to mention it at all. And if they did, I was expecting it to be availed mentioned, certainly not mentioning the letters eighty w so for Sammy to come out and say that. It was interesting. And I think it, it may WWE look better, at least for a wrestler to mention it rather than have someone on commentary, for example. Subtly, try to bury them or have Corey graves make a veiled reference to it. So I think it comes off better for, for WWE sake to have a wrestler mentioned it in the middle of a promo as opposed to an announcer. There's a difference between doing yourself and do it for a living at the Home Depot. We get that. And we're hued help froze, get the job done with the products and brands you trust technology to keep your job on track job site, delivery, to save you time at both pricing on over four thousand items every day to save you money when you've got a job, we're on the job. The Home Depot. More saving. More doing. No, an ad from dad. All right. Save money on car insurance. When you bundle home and auto with progressive gotta take these off, right? What is this good? Wow. Where did you get this? I'm talking to you with the hair. Yeah. Where did you get this good stuff, solid? That's not veneer that solid stuff. Progressive can't save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates another insurance. Discounts not available in all states or situations. A lot of emails on AWS speaking of it being topical. Ben Davis says it's amazing how many of my friends who haven't watched or followed WWE in years are now so excited about wrestling, not sports entertainment, again, being from the UK and having a w won itv's is huge as a terrestrial TV station. So it's free it's free to watch and it's easy to catch up on demand. So my friends are now all talking about how exciting hope side of the to watch a w having seen or heard what happened at double or nothing. I wonder if AWS understands how much of an impact, this is having over here in the UK as always. Thank you, for making the horrendous bus journeys into work, more bearable, go, V I P. So that's Ben telling our free show listeners to go VIP experience, all of our podcasts at free and Oliver VIP, exclusive podcasts also that you're missing out on Peter torture. VIP info dot com, PW, torch, VIP info dot com. Tom ninety nine dollars gets you a full year of our immersive coverage compatible with podcast apps on your iphone and Android devices. And that will include all that AWS has has coming up for us heading into the fall with TNT all the way through wrestlemainia next year. So check it out. You can also subscribe for one month or three months for eight lesser rate. Greg the deal. Tony contact about that. And as media scrum, after double or nothing. And it was not only did I really like, Tony Kahn's demeanor. It was just like so, like, hey, hey ruin how're you doing? I'm the owner. I'm running this place Choubey some questions, and I'll give you honest answers. And it was like, wow. I've been covering this business for so long. I've never seen somebody in a position of power. Not look like that chip on their shoulder hated the media were on guard for a question that they felt was was impolite or inappropriate to ask, and they had something to hide, like it was just like I it shouldn't have been that big of a deal to me. But it was like, wow, it can be like this, and that, and that's not even saying that I'm gonna think every decision Tony Kahn makes is great or everything. He says, is what I would endure whatever. But just that moment in time it was like, wow, this is cool so in, it's on YouTube, but on media in that media, scrum afterwards. He talked about TV, and he says, well, used wrestling used to be in the enter IT entertainment category. And I knew the itv's sports people because he's big into your European football European soccer and he's got his family as a team over there. He runs it. And so he knew those people and he just sold them on it. And like this. Is we have a chance to do something really big and give you the numbers that you that you have been dreaming of, and we can do it. And he just said everything we've told them so far has come true. You know, like every step of the way they gain confidence because Tony knows in real has a realistic idea of what they're going to do. He's ambitious. He aims high any delivers. And so now he has IT, which is a huge deal. It's a big market of the huge market to have and he spent a good part of his ear there. So he has advantages there that other promoters haven't had. And so it's I'm I mean, yeah, it's going to be big in the Awa is going to have this other home market, and it's going to be bigger and that's maybe something to watch too, because WWE historically, there number two market outside of the United States, hasn't been Mexico or Canada. It's been the UK, so it's going to be interesting to see the impact a w makes over there. And whether or not. It has any effect on WWE whether it is when WWE goes overseas does shows over there or whether know whether we're talking about ratings or WWE network subs, from the UK, but I mean, that's, that's a big deal to, and that's something we need to keep an eye on. Yeah. Yup. Absolutely. Okay. Let's go next to Jamie, h she says, I'm loving the content recently just two points that I'd like to make firstly. I think they have a huge issue with Roman reigns. I can't tell whether he just can't be bothered or is just incredibly boring in doesn't have it. But considering he's the guy his crowd reactions are average at best after five years of constant strong booking. He's failing no matter. What will you look at it? I was at Ron London a couple of weeks back, and he gets an initial pop then nothing. No one cares. And neither does he it seems I can't help but feel it was better when he was getting huge booze instead of tepid in week. Cheers, I don't care enough to cheer him and most are too polite to boom. So he's in limbo. So it's one of two points. He wanted to make Greg, Greg. What do you think? I've talked about how Roman walk into the ring this week. Look like a guy at a warehouse carrying boxes from one shelf to another from from like a tractor trailer into into just like it just was a job. He didn't have a demeanor of, of excitement. And I keep looking for these opportunities like the shield farewell show, the five hundred dollar payoff for Jon Moxley. And, you know he had a chance to speak on the microphone and he didn't. I don't know why he might have had a reason that I would be sympathetic to, but it was part of a pattern where it's like you've chance to be the leader on camera. That writes backstage, see him as because people do gravitate toward somebody like behind the seats. He's a cool dude, and people really like his personality. None of that comes through in and Romans own words, the character that he invents McMahon crafted the Roman reigns. Characterize said this on the chronicle special last month. And so that's not coming across on TV. He had a chance to take that microphone and say goodbye to dean and be a leader. And he might have been too emotional. And I, I get that. But you gotta suck it up and talk, it's shield farewell show and you're the top star in the company, and you're saying goodbye to a friend who you've had this five plus year story arc with, and you almost in a way that doesn't try not to draw attention to you're telling south note. I don't want to Mike. No, I don't want the Mike off. He's like talking. I don't I don't wanna talk. I have nothing to say, whatever it was like, what is that all about? Then you have this truth thing he sort of seemed like he's going through the motions thinking this kind of fun. Let's get allies back, but I want people think have an informed. No, I don't I am. I'm an advocate for him being what he can be in what I hear he is behind the scenes. And there's been glimpses of it this arrow supposed to be different. And I think Jamie is right in Greg Grier, disagree that the booze are less because people are too polite and the cheers now aren't as loud because the tears aren't pushing back against the booze. So now we're just getting sort of middle of the road, you're atop star. You're pushed we pop for your music because you're a star. But then once we see you. It's like okay, it's okay, you know, it's just kind of shoulder shrug action. And I can't help think of what kind of reaction that match with Elias would have gotten at money in the Bank of hit gone. Ten minutes instead of thirty seconds. Yeah. Position to where it was on the card as late in the night is it was that could have been a pretty brutal reaction to that match? So it was at least a smart decision on WWE's part to make that short match. Yeah. At this point, it almost has to be the crafting of the Roman reigns. Character to where he's too cool for school. Nothing gets to him. Nothing fazes him. He's just that. I don't know how you want to refer to him laser focus to where he's not. He doesn't show a lot of emotion that has to be the, the specific crafting of the character, whether that's Vince, or whether that's Roman or whatever or a combination of the two but yeah, I think in order to be a top guy, you gotta show some vulnerability. You've gotta show some of ocean and too often, it's, it's Roman reigns. The big dog all business, which, that's okay every once in a while. But if you don't let the viewer in to your character, then you're going to get those tepid responses where the viewers are just kind of watching you from a distance and they're not there have a connection to you. And that's what we're seeing now. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think they it's been a concern for so long in there. It's not it's probably not going to change, but it felt like his return after the leukemia treatment was that, that, that, that opening for change. And we're not getting Friday night. Sunday brunch. Does not matter facts are facts, Queen every cigarette can cut your life short. Find that hard to believe then the banner from all this free life freedom to be to beco- free. Bring the whole family over to t mobile think. It's awesome iphone ten are on us. When you trade in your old device, you'll be snapping streaming and sharing to your heart's content. Visit a store or call one eight hundred t mobile can get an iphone ten are on us twenty four monthly Bill credits. For low qualified customers, plus tax while created boarding, service and finance agreement required. Contact us. People cancelling our credit stop warm and balanced sixty four gigs zero down to thirty one twenty five per month for twenty four. Month's pretty credit price seven forty nine ninety nine zero percent. APR one offer perk out. Jimmy says Secondly being in them or being the money in the Bank winner isn't great. But I don't totally hate it. I just hope this week was the last of him teasing. He's going to cash in goes away for five months. And then comes back to cash in on a nowhere. I'm already bored having him back on Greg. How do you assess what they're doing with, with Lessner? I, I had some issues with Lessner Bruce talked about this on the risk Mitchell idea show us Cade on yesterday. But I might with Brock just having be trying to get heat from fans by giving him the preferential treatment of getting to pick a spot to commit at the NFL everybody beat each other up knowing he could just wait until there was an opportune up an opportunity to come out and win. We have to set aside that all they could have taken the briefcase easily. But the presentation there was meant shock-and-awe he's the mystery guy filling out the final vacant spot. And so we're for surprise and shock. But we didn't have enough pushback from the baby faces or the heels for that matter, who were. Involved in the match who got cheated out of a win that they had battled for and they didn't get the plan for that opponent. And you didn't have the baby face announcers, saying the obvious to the degree that they should have, which is this is an outrage. It's like somebody winning an election who wasn't even like on the ballot. But every polling place had a stamp, and you could just stamp their name on it, and you got, and you got a dollar for doing it like it, which, like that would be Regis in, nobody's outraged at the preferential treatment that the, he'll figures, gave Brock to win this coveted virtually guaranteed opportunity become champion again, and that's good, he'll heat, I think it's disinvesting heat, I think it makes fans less invested the next time there's a big match with announced wrestlers because they think they're just going to screw us to quote surprise us. And when you do it with Brock who has some go away heat in addition to store heat, and you get a whole spectrum of opinion on this, but there are some go away heat, I want, I wanna watch restaurants who wrestle, and don't mock the existence of wrestlers who don't have the leverage that he has. I think. A meta level is a turn off. I don't know if it's more than the gain, but I think it's up for discussion. So those are my thoughts. In addition to what Jamie said. Yeah. The teases is on TV seem pretty transparently a way to pop the ratings and to keep viewers around, you know, seeing if Lessner will cash in seeing who he's going to announce he's gonna cash against but that's only going to work for a short term you can't keep doing that every week and expecting people to tune in. And the crazy thing is, you know, I'm looking at Twitter and WWE's Twitter account has put out a video from Stephanie McMahon that says, Stephanie McMahon promises that she the McMahon family and the executive team what we take action against Paul Heyman, and rock listener after their disrespectful actions on raw and it's like okay well, who's the one that put him in the position to win money in the Bank, not only allowing him to be in the match, but allowing him to go in at the very end of the match and not even forcing him to have to Russell from the beginning, who is the genius to thought of that. And now they're the ones who are pushing back on them after like two weeks after winning the breeze. This is the kind of stuff that's frustrating because it's just so ham fisted and it's just it's seat of your pants, and there's no logic. There's no weaving of a tapestry of a story line here. It's just one week is something different from the next week is something different from the next week. And there's no threat to keep it all together. They're doing what they need to do today to tell the store they wanna tell today with a complete disregard for what happened last week or two months ago, two years ago and that frustrates fans. And so it's this how do we tell the story wanna tell today? But if you don't have a regard for the precedents that were set. I mean it's chaos no doubt about the supreme court. But imagine if our courts that way in precedent weren't the guidepost for decisions made today, and that's going to be in their own world. They want to treat. They want treat their ecosystem as important. And their rules is important. Otherwise, who cares about title matches who cares about title Raines, who. Who cares about wins and losses or rule breaking rules and cheating, or triumphing in the thrill of victory who cares about any of that? If there isn't some structure that the people running it cherish, and, cultivate, and I'm trying to think of a third c word even though and Kochan really work together again. Cultivate that already say that art. Yeah, you're no Paul Heyman. Sometimes, but yeah. Yeah, I be like in the WWE world that should be as important as it is to, to supreme court Justice. John Roberts in his court like we need to we need president, we need explanations for, for why we break from it, and they don't do that. And it's disrespectful to fans and I think it causes them to disinvest and disengage and disavow the WWE brand. There we go. All right. Next Andrei from Las Vegas. I understand pro wrestling torch cover stories in and around the world of professional wrestling. Wow. That is very true. And you and your team are the best at it in my opinion. Thank you. However, the constant the constant discussion, I know it too good to be true. Well, it was sort of like the beginning was like I understand that I'm like, oh, God. But you're the best. Yea. There's like, however, however, the constant discussion of WWE doing business with Saudi Arabia tends to be slanted toward your negative personal opinion of the matter. I would go so far as to say you influence listeners, negative opinions and encourage them to boycott the show in protest. I know that you're not a political show, but our President, Donald Trump is on record saying he was disinterested in stopping Saudi Arabian investment of one hundred ten billion in the United States despite tensions over Jamal, Khashoggi's disappearance. Saudi Arabia's America's number one weapons buyer. I'm more offended by that then a silly pro wrestling show taking place there. So I just compared WWW the supreme court. So I'm going to also say are, as you say, in your opening sentence, our territories covering WWE pro wrestling, so because I talk about WWE go into Saudi Arabia, and my opinion is they shouldn't, and now that they are in a contract and the Khashoggi slang happened. They ought to give that money to charity in a pronounced way and try to get out of the deal. That's my stance. I would like to think I have some info. Fluence when I expressed my opinion, but I also know people push back and can think for themselves. So I don't feel responsibility to hem and haw and not have strong opinions on things. People can think for themselves. Sometimes they agree with me. Sometimes they don't oftentimes I'm swayed to their point of view. If they make a good argument and that's what we're here for also. I would like to think I have some influence, but not enough to cause almost every WWE arena to boot the logo crown jewel like that. I mean I'm sorry, but don't sell yourself. Who knows? Maybe if I had been raw raw pro Saudi Arabia, everyone would be cheering the crown jewel logo, but I doubt it. So I this is not like an outlandish dance to take. You can Google it look corporations that that go, there do take heat for it. Not just W W E, but no, I'm not my job is to, to come in on pro wrestling, not, not larger politics. I do believe it is a bigger deal to sell one hundred ten billion dollars of weapons. That's not even a real figure. But then I think that's more important than than w be going there. But my job is coming on WB going there because that's what we do. We're pros and podcast. So I will I'll defend that. But you're right. I think you probably should be more offended by the larger issues involving weapons that a one off or an occasional entertainment show for the crown prince, and the who fortunate to get to go to the show, Greg cousin, I would love. Not to have to talk, anything politically related, it turns wrestling. I mean, that's I don't enjoy having to discuss this kind of thing. But I think WWE also makes it newsworthy, when they're going to a country and they refuse to say that country's name for fear of backlash after celebrating it on the front Jones. Yeah. And they were propaganda machine. I. Right. So I think those are news worthy enough. Stances WWE's taken publicly on their shows to be discussed on a show like this. Absolutely. Absolutely. You'll do it right. To get your hands on tools. You can count on and lower prices. Lows does it right to savings during craftsman days per unit? Take advantage of great deals like a craftsman twenty volt max for tool combo, featuring a drill impact driver. Reciprocating saw and task life for just one hundred forty nine dollars and pick up a seventeen inch gas string trimmer for only one hundred twenty nine dollars, whatever projects are on your list. Do it right for less start with Lowe's. Offers valid through six five. US only. Nellie, as we believe, free range, living is good for hens and kids alike. Let's listen in. Okay. So wreak is the best frisbee getter Downer? If it's too, I up on the roof tennis balls are good, but you gotta have great Dane shoes work. But you only get two tries follows fails go. Tommy. He's the best climber in the neighborhood. I'm telling you that gives like a mountain goat Melis free range aches for free range living available at Harris teeter. So he says, on another. I thought that your observation of a WWE nothing on the website, we're fair, despite rabbit. Awa fans objections in the comments section, the top three my name seen those, the top three matches were great, but the pre show and opening bites were routine if not predictable in my opinion, and there were production issues and questionable content. Decisions made it you w futures promising, but the hardcore exaggerated claims of how great everything they have done will be exhausting. I worked in one of the star cast host hotels in Las Vegas in the majority of our employees, tourist and local, regular guest had no idea, what AWS they kept asking if that was WWE stuff. Awa fans keeps saying that WWE should be scared and their days are numbered. I never count them out in if any organization should be upset. It's ring of honor. They must regret voluntarily assistant, Cody in the bucks and producing hall in and they'll seeing what it's become they suddenly been supplanted as the viable alternative in number two American progress and company. Thanks to the continuous great content Andre from Las Vegas younger. I think our wages stands to lose percentage wise more than WWE now that said, are we just funded by a company that I believe is richer, and has more resources than even the confidently much less Vince McMahon. And so I think they can withstand a blow to their business, and they did sign some good talent. I think people I think there's a consensus, too strong of a word, but a strong point of view that their TV show should be better in their booking should be better. And, and that's that's a negative. But otherwise, you know, they're not running a fulltime schedule these days, but I think they're taking a hit for sure. And they might have second thoughts about helping Cody in the bucks way to code. He's been very gracious and thanking them for letting them do the show when they were still under contract. But, you know, they have, you know, joke office said they don't have to be more than what they are. You know, and it's, it's fine, if they sometimes you go out of business. If you're not in bishops. Don't take chances and grow because other people with more ambitions who take more chances can come around and beat you at your own game in that might happen with them. But I don't blame them for going. Hey, we just don't wanna lose money. We've got a good thing going. We run our, our fifty live shows a year, and our TV tapings and occasional paper views. And we have our international TV deals and Sinclair's happy with us, and we ever streaming network and we're able to make payroll and and run a nice medium sized company. That's fine, and Awa may or may not affect that comfort zone that they've been in. But I don't know how how much it stings them right now because, frankly, they went to been able to afford Kenny omega Jon Moxley, right? Yeah. I don't know how much Awa is really going to bite into ring of honor's business just because like you said it is know, Awa is, is punching above our wages, wait, at this point. So you don't really know. There may be some talent that, that AWS signs that could have been with h but our which always has a way of developing their own talent. They've had a history of doing that. I think as far as ROI regretting helping with all in. I think what will really take that to the next level is if new Japan at some point decides to end their relationship with ring of honor, and hook up with eight w which is something that's always kind of rumored. Although, everybody seems to be happy where they are right now that could be something that, that are really. Lives to regret because a lot of their big tours and big shows are propped up by stars new Japan and so taking that off of the table would do some, some damage to our way around wrestlemainia weekend time when they do big shows and some of their other big shows. So that's something to watch as well. What do you think about eighty wwltv hit the generalized because there's for any company, there's going to be people who just are like, anything that isn't just a glowing. Gushing comment in Iranian critique or criticism. And they're just going to lash out in a common area. I mean YouTube or on our people, you torch dot com website or on Twitter, whatever it's going to happen. I don't like throwing a lot of attention to it. I it's it's going to be there. So be it and they either make good point. So they don't but are you sensing at all that Awa fans are getting sort of fiercely protective of any criticism, and that it's overbearing at all at this point? Not really. You know it's one show. So. And it was one show that was talked about a lot. But I saw out of people really like it. I mean, I gave it a glowing review in my roundtable score in the in the torch newsletter arrived at college is for giving an only nine on it. As well. You should I, I also wrote about it in my full page column. So I've tweeted about it during the show. So I feel like I said, basically, all I can say about the show. But I don't get a sense that there's people yet who are extremely territorial of AWS and don't want people to say anything negative about it. I think that'll come just because of any medium in. When any company or product gets hot enough. There are going to be people who do that. You know, no matter what, we're what business we're talking about. So that's going to happen. But you know it's pretty easy to avoid that I would say, don't follow those people on Twitter. Don't go in the comments sections of, of websites, where people are acting like that. Or don't read columns, where you think are too slanted in one sided, refuse to hear anything different, but extreme praise for a product. Yes. The other point he made that I want address is that people in, in Vegas, don't know who AWS yet. And I'm like to that and not being not trying to be rude. But da. I mean, like their, their first show ever, they aren't on national TV yet, it's the people who know who are rabid fans that are optimistic about what they see. I like I haven't heard I guarantee you I have not heard of the next great NFL quarterback, six years from now, but I bet there's people who follow college in highschool, recruiting who do. And just because I don't know who the next big name quarterback is going to be drafted number one overall doesn't mean that you shouldn't be excited about the talent of that quarterback. So the idea that you don't know who AWS yet because people who work at a casino only know, WWE is not relevant. Yet in the key is, is the pieces are in place. The product is good. The talent is good. The ownership is strong. They have great TV Clair's is in the United States in the United Kingdom. They have a business plan in everything they have done. So far has succeeded. Why? Wildly? So it's we're not in five years, or even heck nine months. There should be some mainstream recognition for eighty w. But in the end that's not going to matter. We're not worried about what people the, the brand awareness of AWS people who aren't wrestling fans doesn't matter and never will like that. What matters is do. Wrestling fans want to pay to see this product and do they tune in every week to see it. And I think all sides reported a good direction as far as that goes. Yeah. Terry. This isn't working. Is it because I still be living with me motor. Is it because we mates be Scully wives. No, I like your friends is it it's the pirate talk Terry Yar. Everyone's caught up in the old bay. Fully efficient McDonald's. It's the taste locals craven are classic sandwich. Get two for five dollars either original or that old bay love. Yoho, price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with combo meal. Limited time only single regular price. Planning a getaway. Well, with the Capital, One venture card. You were an unlimited double miles, on any purchase you make today and every day, and those miles add up to get you closer to that trip to paradise every vanilla soy latte, double miles. Every time you pump gas mile even when you buy a set of monogram beach towels. Yep. Double miles you weren't unlimited double miles on every purchase. And then you go. The capital win venture card the card that takes you there. What's in your wallet Bank? USAA. Okay. Next Mike Modano parentheses not the hockey player darn it from upstate New York. He is now a Minnesota wild executive, which is cool. He's former Minnesota North northstar back with Minnesota wild and an executive role. He says, I'm a longtime listener embroider, but I have to say I've been so turned off by the constant stream of negativity from your callers lately. It seems like people get their Email rant templates, ready to go every Monday and Tuesday and just sit and wait for something to complain about is it just the new hip thing to do is hate watching taking over the world this week after all you read over a dozen emails asking, I don't know if well, maybe it was, I don't know if this was WBZ response to eighty w which I literally screamed in my car and my commute to work. Why are we comparing one company Super Bowl to another company's midseason throw waking, come January or even compare the world? Rumbled AWS random Wednesday show on TNT that was designed to push toward another event entirely. These people woke up Monday, knowing they wanted to complain about Ron compared to double or nothing and make no mistake. They were all. Thrilled to be disappointed by the lack of wrestling in our in our one. Now they could vent and maybe even get their Email right on a podcast. What a day, the same goes for the twenty four seven title, which is actually quite fun and ineffective for low card time filler it was never supposed to be serious. They are not passing office prestigious. But people were immediately at their keyboards and touched on phones, ready to read about how the people in quote, marks ready rant about WWE is diminishing championships in the tunnel belt is ugly. It's just a constant stream of whining and complaining from a bunch of people who clearly live to wine and complaint. Don't get me wrong. I'm bored to death by Roman reigns. Wait a second. You don't get to say all that and type that don't get me wrong. I'm bored to death by ruin rates. I hate unrealistic camera angles that have no reason to exist. And I can't stand seeing Shane McMahon portrayed as a dominant force, but continue to DVR Ron smackdown. So I confess for those segments that don't really interest me. But I also embrace the product as a whole in proudly discuss. How I love Kofi? Seth AJ says are ricochet break kale. Becky Bailey, Sammy Brian, and ole things and x t I'm Jay. Everyone else to give this a try as well. But beware, you may actually enjoy yourselves believe in the power positively, Greg, your thoughts. I will agree about the twenty four seven title. I find that to be relatively ineffective fluff gives the lower card wrestlers something to do. I it's obviously not meant to be an important title. And as much as I rolled my eyes went WWE announced. They were going to introduce another title if they were to do that. I think this is the way to handle it. Don't try and pretend it's something that it's not, which is what WWE's kind of done with the women's tag team title, where there was this big on veiling, and there were tears, and oh, the women are getting titles finally, and then, you know, a couple of months after banks and Bailey wouldn't they lose the onyx who on TV every week? And now it's nothing so I guess I'd rather them introduce a title that was kind of meant to be a comedic title in the first place, rather than try to sell me something that it's not. I think in any kind of company, the people who have the loudest voice are the ones who are tend to be more negative, and I'd compare this to any like any other company, if you Email or write in into a company, you're going to Email or write in something that's wrong with the product rather than how well the product did in how, how well it worked and to complement, the makers of the product on it. So I just think that's, that's the tendency is. Anger and rage is an emotion that gets people up in doing things a lot more than just being happy with what they've seen. You know. So I tend to think that's why you, you get more negative causing us, not always the case, and I would use my show as an example on wrestling night in America after money in the Bank, I took a half dozen calls. And most of them are glowing about the show and the last several pay per views I can say that most of the phone calls. I've taken on those shows after paper views have been largely positive. That's not always the case. But it does tend to be the ones who don't like something that are the ones that do something about it and want to voice their opinions more so than someone who. Yeah. That was a good show. I mean, you call in and say that there's really not a lot to, to analyze beyond that I guess. Twenty four seven title. I ran a poll on Twitter. Two hundred ninety votes. So not, not the biggest response that we've that we've had for poll. So I don't know what that says, but I said, what's your opinion of the twenty four seven title after a couple of days? This was Brandis on may twenty four so by week ago. Thirty one percents said thumbs up, I enjoy thirty percents, thumbs down a turnoff so kind of split in terms of people kind of choosing sides, Twenty-three percent said they're not sure yet and sixteen percent said tolerable, but not for me. In other words, it's fine. It's there but it's you know, not don't love it. Donate it. So to me that, that is for people who really feel strongly. Either way, I don't think you can feel so strongly that like it's so stupid. And how could anyone think this would be a good idea, because, you know, a half the people who have opinions strong opinion on it like it in half worst, Dr strong opinion, don't and I'm with you. It's, it's making use of undercard guys. I would rather utilize them in a better way. And I, but I'm also with you, that if they're gonna add a title, something like this makes a lot more sense than. The Saudi Arabian championship the Australian championship the European championship a TV title. I don't even know what the options were super heavyweight title. I'm that guy. Could be fun. So yeah, I'm fine with that. And as for the kind of the rant about fans renting. Again, I point out the smackdown ratings earlier one year ago, Roz rating in the eight weeks after wrestlemainia was two point one five two point one five the same eight we period this year, one point seven three. That's a big drop. This is not just keyboard warriors looking to hate watch. The reason that people are complaining because there are things to complain about if I felt I was reading an Email, and someone was just making stuff up or trying to be trying to just be negative for the sake of making the show. I would shy away from reading it. We get enough emails most weeks. I don't have to read every Email, and if it just seemed like it was, like, I'm going to nitpick. But the everyone consensus was, this was a better than average for great show. I won't even bother with that. And if we get emails from people praising things I definitely read those to you, if the ratings were going up and our show is a bunch of people complaining. That'd be one thing. But the people complaining are complaining before they stopped. Watching, and if I'm WWE I don't complain about the complainers, I take notice because they're tomorrow's fans who make up the difference between a one point seven three rating this year on average and the two point one the two point one five average from Europe during the same eight stretch. There were a bunch of people complaining last year who weren't listened to, and now they're not watching, and that's why that rating is down. So I think it's more productive. But but at the same time, I don't wanna even an also like mercury with myself here. But Mike is right. There's a lot of there's a lot of talented wrestlers doing really cool things. And it is what, what a lot of people tune in for, and they have their gripes, and they want to constructively advocate for improvement and well, but they're still watching in part because they're getting something out of it, including some of the reasons that Mike list, it, you know, AJ says, oh, ricochet Ray Bailey, Becky. I mean, there's good things going on in WWE four. Sure. And I think that's what people want to build on. And they just want to voice their opinion on how. It might be better if they added some other things out. Yeah. With the Capital, One saver card. You weren't four percent cashback on dining and entertainment. That's four percent cashback on we scream for ice cream. I was role very and four percent while you're screaming at the amusement park. The Capital, One saver card earned. Four percent on dining and four percents on entertainment. Now, when you in the family, go out, you cash it, Capital One. What's in your wallet terms apply? Kevin one Bank USAA. Hi, it's Jamie, progressive's employee of the month two months in a row. Leave a message at the hi Jamie. It's me, Jamie. I just had a new idea for our song about the name your price tool. So when it's like, tell us what you want to pay. Hey, hey, and the trombone goes, blah, blah, blah, and you say, we'll help you find curve jobs to fit your budget. Then we just all do finger snaps while a choir goes, savings coming at ya. Savings coming at you. Yes. No. Maybe. Anyway, see you practice tonight. I got new lyrics for the rap break. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. While the weed killer perusing post shows and wake killer, pro wrestling podcasts and PW torch daily casts are all ads supported free programs. You can make the ads and plugs, go away and went to be great to listen to the straight through without ads and plug. You can become a VIP member and unlock access to thirty plus years of archives of podcast, retro radio shows, and over fifteen hundred back issues of the purposing towards newsletter. Dating back to the late nineteen eighty s and get our new podcasts every single day, and free and plug free. Not just the free ones. But the exclusive ones only for VIP members including about a dozen others per week than I am part of you can do that by becoming a VIP member full details at peak w torch, VIP info dot com. That's beautiful. You torch VIP info dot com. It averages eight twenty five a month if you choose the one year option, or you can go month to month for nine dollars ninety nine cents. Checkout full details that PW torch, VIP info dot com. Okay. Kevin from Albany. Do you think it's due to fan backlash over the event the location or the event, or because many of the matches 'Super shown on our one time how show like match with no impact on the weekly and monthly product unless they announce something later in the week over take or may not appear on TV at all? Well, they're going to have to take on rock in while are video packages for orange triple, h they're not on TV building. It like they did last year. The taker came DX match. So great, what have you thought of these build up to super showdown? And what do you take from the way that they've been hyping, Tut Tut Morton on the fix had? A on the late show yesterday had a great quote about how, you know, he's, he's not a he doesn't like that WWE is going to Saudi Arabia. But if they are he's happy that they're getting. Barron Corbin and Sigler as the title challengers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not exactly a true a show in that respect. The, the whole idea of them building up this show as bigger than wrestlemainia like that boggles my mind that. Filling. It is, you know, wrestlemainia has been sacred in WWE for so long and to see WWE whoring themselves out to Saudi Arabia by saying by putting this show on a pedestal above wrestlemainia is just it's mind boggling. So that's kind of my first take on it. We've seen this with Saudi Arabia before, you know, the greatest, Royal rumble or are they kind of throw that out there and other matches on some of the other shows that don't have any TV build? It is it is kind of strange, and I don't. It's, it's hard to put this, you want to put things into buckets or pots and know the pay per view is in this bucket TV's in this bucket. Where does the Saudi Arabia Van Gogh because it doesn't really go in the paper view bucket, because you could see WWE building beyond that the other pay per views doesn't go in the TV bucket. I mean, it's hard to really qualify this show in, in say what it is exactly because it is a major show, you've got Goldberg on the show, and you've got undertaker, and you've got some of the other batches triple agent. Randy ordinate is obviously a big show just based on the wrestlers who are participating in it. And this fifty man battle Royal. In yet, it's hard to put it in a nice neat box that we've put other shows in, I guess, it would be pay per view, but it's not there's not traditional Bill to these matches. And I'm not I'm not really. Sure why WWE do that. They seem to be choosing not to for some of these bigger matches. Maybe they think Goldberg can take her is going to sell itself. Maybe they don't wanna pay Goldberg to what it would cost to bring him to the TV and do some kind of angular storyline. But you could certainly do that with triple agent, Randy Orton instead they're doing. They're letting the video packages to a lot of the talking, which is probably fine. So, yeah, it's, it's really hard to say it's. It's just it's, it's a hard one to, to wrap your arms around I guess. Yes. All right up next Ellen and Cambridge Ontario says, I wanted to talk about a w I don't watch much non WWE wrestling, but I'm aware of all that's going on. I'm a big Chris Jericho fan and I was considering ordering double or nothing. I watched about ten minutes of the pre show battle Royal and then decided to watch the NBA game. Instead, what I saw on the pre show battle Royal was a guy in a dinosaur mask, Tommy dreamer smashing, people with garbage can lids. Some obese guy, some guy with hands in his pockets doing fixed, the Tommy dreamer and some of the smallest skinniest people I've ever seen in a ring. I didn't know who ninety nine percent of these wrestlers were, but they certainly don't look like all elite wrestlers. It looked like a bunch of fans. Got together and did their own Royal rumble. I'll check out the free weekly show in the fall, but I don't think I can pay fifty dollars for pay per view at this point. So he said that a couple of days ago knowing the reviews for the show we're glowing. I, I wrote my report, I thought the pre show was a almost a worst case scenario. I thought it showed bad judgment on. The part of eighty w I mean my exactly what interview this was awful. Just almost a worst case scenario for me in terms of AWS taking advantage of the pre show. I disagree with almost everything they did here. No, I gave the overall show the pay per view itself, a nine I thought that there were good matches in the first two hours with some lousy announcing and some some production glitches, which come with the territory, but they're big company with experienced people they hired. I'm not going to give them a total free pass. I'm gonna mention it not condemn them. But mention it less stores were great, and that showed in the end they have made been personalities doing main event, work telling super compelling main events stories. They delivered with that Bret Hart surprise. I mean it's just like so I was very negative on the pre show, little nervous for the first two hours, enjoying the action, but it just felt like too many people not established doing moves, and they were aiming for a more mainstream audience, even with a fifty dollar price tag less. Ours made me very confident and thought this was one of. A great paper views and that can happen. What matters most in the USC card is do the main events off. If you have really bad made events in a couple of good undercard fights. It's not gonna work as well. So in the end this absolutely delivered. But Greg that pre show. Here's an Email, and that is what I was fearing I it was like it was a fun, little indie. Every hey, everybody's friend gets to be on, on a on a pre show, pay per view. But there was no context, unless you were in avid, BT watcher, and I'm not sure that on a pre show when you're trying to sell a fifty dollar pay per view. I don't know that you should be appealing to one hundred fifty thousand BT watchers on YouTube. Yeah. And if you watched the pre show and then decided if you're one of those fence sitters and you decided not to order the papers, you, I totally understand that because I was not a fan of the pre show either I would say that the main show really did not reflect what was on the pre show, which is a problem. That's, that's not how it should be. And this is one of the things that brought up in my column in the newsletter. This week is. How does a w reconcile the Lucia Sorus characters the orange Cassidy characters and that may have just been at one off. I don't think he's under contract, but those kind of gimmicky characters with these sport. Like, feel that AWS trying to sell itself as because, you know, you've got Kenny O got the Chris Jericho's who okay, put them in the main events and do your analytics and do your sport type thing with that. But how does that mesh on a two hour TV show every week with some of these gimmicky characters that you saw on the pre show? And that's, that's one of the biggest questions I'm going to have going into their TV show in the fall is, how do they coalesce? How do they come together or maybe they're just completely separate, or, and if that's the case? How do they separate them? You know, that's, that's one of the, the twenty seven title that your book write your case for that you could make that case for it. But not on a pre show when that's people's first impression and the other problem was the battle, Royal was for. A shot in the title matches the first ever Awa the crown at AWS champion. And you had these. Wacky characters all eligible for that title. And you had everybody on the main card who. Was basically, you know better than them in almost any. Objection objective way not getting that opportunity. So it's curious as to what kind of went into that. And again you probably needed to be a BT watcher to see how they get in this match. But I think that was if it was just a better oil, and it was just for fun. Okay. That's one thing. But when you have the championship opportunity to use WWE's verbiage. For the winner of this match that just makes it worse. And you have 'em. J F in Etem page, which were really the two only reasonable winners in the patch. And everybody else had glacier in there and Tommy, dreamer. And it was it was. It was a Hawaiian scene, but it shouldn't have been on the pre show for pay per view, and it shouldn't have been for a shot at the title. Here's what I would have liked Lucy battle Royal before the battle, Royal, the announcers, put a graphic on the screen, and, you know, this is an ESPN type discussion that you would see put six faces on the screen and had the announcers go art. These are who we think of the twenty wrestlers we know who are going to be in this battle Royal and they can't take my paycheck. The these are the top six contenders and give a little bio, you know, Lucia source. Don't judge the book by the cover he hears his background. Here's what he's done. Here's his accomplishments havoc. Let's talk about him. MJ off. Boy will people be mad, if he wins, he's talented but Boise obnoxious, but he is an up and comer. Here's his age. Here's some of the big matches. He's had even show a clip of him at Indy show, winning a big match against somebody that people recognize and give a six names to look for, and then just acknowledge like overtly own it go. There's some. Wrestlers in this who probably don't have a chance. Let's, let's talk about a few of them do any of these guys have a chance. And why are they in the sing anyway? Even just kind of make not light of it, but kind of own it and acknowledge what people are gonna think, and then just talk about four six of them. And so people kind of know we're aware of what's about to happen here. So during the circus atmosphere, they're six guys that are real contenders. It came down to Lucia sores page havoc and Jeff and I'm watching there's no way anyone's winning this, but page, so I needed I needed more depth. They needed to put one or two more serious wrestlers in that battle Royal for the final four and then they needed to frame it for you. Head of time. I don't think that's asking too much. I don't think what I just said is profound radical or genius. I think it's the bear nationally. The bare minimum it's just sort of the obvious thing to do when you're producing a product and you have about a world and you wanna create a focus on a few of the players. If I'm watching a soccer game on. Cable. I'm gonna probably know if I watched a pre show the know who the top stars are for each team. The NHL doesn't have superstar Friday on NHL network. What are they call it where they'll track the star players on each team? You know, and kind of focus on them and let you know that they didn't do a good job with that. This was the time to show us your thinking about that stuff in this isn't just all my friends, get to be on about a world in this going to be a circus. So I wanted to give a concrete example of what I was looking for. And how you can have all those wrestlers in it, but deliver it and frame it better. Or I should say you need a couple of other credible guys in there, but etiquette boomer credible, guys and frame it in a way that's my concrete specific idea for how I think it would have led to less of a pushback, by me and others about what kind of a minor league circus that it looked like at times. Yeah, it didn't look like they put a lot of thought into this pre show. And you know, maybe. I kiss you could sort of give him a pass, because the pay per view, is what they need to concentrate on because that's for their first show. That's a big deal. But yeah, the pre show also should have been a big deal because they're probably were quite a few people on the fence not having a history of AWS drawn. There were a lot of probably curious people who weren't sure this is something that they wanted to spend fifty dollars on. And I tell you only anecdotally, how many people said, no, thanks after watching that here. I mean, if I'm if I'm to rearrange I would've put. Against the strong hearts, Sima Teac, and Lyneham it out there at first at the beginning, because people, a lot of people know, Daniels, and casts from other things other than modern the just the last year of what they've seen an our wage, and it would have given an international flavor, and the strong hearts are dazzling and Seema's we'll no one at a lot of circle. So I would put that out there. They can have a good three three and a half star match. If you frame it, right and give him time. But also there's some personalities Jim Alex Marvin. Well, Jim Ross wasn't do the pre show. But the have something to work with, with that. And then I would have had a one on one women's match, I would have had a showcase of two women against each other also on the show, but I would have done something to use that to build up another women's match on the actual pay per view. And I would have had a discussion about a Royal in interviews with the top four participants or top six and had that discussion I talked about, but saved about a Royal with all the with all the genus for the pay per view. So it didn't turn off aunts who were looking for Mercier's product. That's my book. Booking on the fly the pre show. I think that's a better pre show. I think it's it doesn't you don't lose anything, but you actually gained some buys and give a better first impression with some six six man tag with some new international talent that sends a message. Hey, we're, we've got something we've got some some recruiting and scouting going on here that you can be excited about. But some names at personalities and people know so I I don't think, again, what I'm saying is profound. But I think it's kind of decidedly better. I mean like I don't I don't think it. I just. Yeah. Fluffy zany battle Royal, I think it was a bad for suppression. Agreed. Yeah. Right. Christopher T says during your rob hall's show podcast you spoke about the Awa emails about the w chance. Thanks sammy. And whether Debbie actually force people to Google Awa by having Sammy's mentioned it I thought it was worth mentioning that I text I got the first text. I got this morning was from an ex WWE fan who heard on a morning radio show about quote, people chanting for the new wrestling league coming out. This is something, this is someone who does not hear a lot about wrestling, unless it's from me and thinks that w WBZ's been terrible for years. So it looks like the w buzz is catching on in having chance or references on raw is helping that bus. I mean, that seems like that would be a reason for them, not to mention them on TV Greg until they. I guess, and I guess the other option the other thought is well, better to mention them now when fans can yeah, maybe they could send fifty dollars on the pay per view replay, but they're not going to run into AWS weekly TV show on Wednesday, or whatever it is in watch it. And then say, oh wow. This is better. I'm gonna watch this. At least there's enough offer time between WWE mentioning it now. And then when debut on TV that by then this mental all be forgot we didn't. They weren't in the markets where you would expect. There to be a big Awa foothold AWS not running, and Tulsa, that I know of in probably for a reason it just Chicago and Vegas. Jacksonville makes sense for reasons. But I do expect when they go to some of the more coastal cosmopolitan, whatever markets that are that are, you know, have had big indie show, whether it's west coast or east coast. I think there's going to be more Awa chance. I think it's something WWE has to contend with in a way Sammy mentioning. It could have been a preemptive strike against them believing that was inevitable. Maybe it was in response to AWS chance during Shane's match in Vincent's like, well, let's mention it so that it was so any future chance or because Sammy said it as opposed to them being popular like we want to own it. It's not there. Channing of we it not because they know who you are. Yeah. It's going to be the Newseum punctuate. Yes. Yup. And it's but it actually has power to hurt them. You know. Unlike Funke just went to do something row from Boston. I'd like to offer in non Anglo American perspective on the current state of WWE. I grew up in WWE in India in the nineties and early two thousand w w wasn't as big speaking from anecdotal experience, the perspective and wrestling acumen as of an Indian fan or generally fans from that part of the world. And in American fan is significantly different countries like India or Pakistan, Keiser, etc. Do not have a long-standing tradition, or culture of pro wrestling is interesting that Tony Kahn's father came from Pakistan, he emigrated from there. Do not have a long-standing tradition or culture pro wrestling. Unlike the US, UK Japan, Mexico WWE really took off in India in the nineties, because of its pop culture appeal. And now they do just enough to keep those fans happy thinking general Hollis Dodie champion most fans in India are what you may refer to as casual fans. Pro wrestling's, not really perceived as a creative art form at least not yet. And so whatever Doda we offers read bare minimum is readily accepted by the local fans now given that these are huge markets with incredible potential for revenue. Do you think that WWE thinks they no longer need to produce a good wrestling product, and they can just get away with a bare minimum since these markets will stick with them? No matter what in other words, is it possible? They're no longer looking to expand their fan base in North America because they now have almost exclusive access to Asian markets. I'd love to get your perspective on this. Thank you for all the content you and your team produces. Greg, what do you think? I think there's always potential for more. And that's what I think, WWE would like shirt there. It's nice that they're the dominant presence in pro wrestling in these countries. But they've struggled to monetize, that aside from TV deals, WWE network hasn't really grown internationally. I think they would like it to there's some other issues internationally, as far as they get a lot of YouTube views and Twitter, followers from other countries, and they've not yet been able to really monetize, that the whole gender Mahal deal was supposed to get more people from India interested in the product, ideally, at some point spending money on the product and that flopped. So, yeah, I'm sure WWE's happy that in. I don't know there ever content, but happy that they have the market share in these countries. But I think when you look is, especially a country like India, where there are so many people, you know, w w he's gotta be seeing dollar science there. And what wrestler, can we recruit from India to try and make the next gender Mahal only successfully? Or you know what can we build a PC in India or in an Asian market that we could take advantage of the local markets there and make more money that way. So they have recognizable hometown stars. So WWE is putting those steps in place in order to try and monetize it. And they're always looking for different ways to do that. I love all these internationally melts. This is fantastic. It's so cool that our podcast is just Niffer perspective or. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, I love learning from the males in hearing these different perspectives from different cultures and different coming from different places as a fan and being able to convey, convey, that art. So Mika from Cincinnati mica from Cincinnati says, hey, wait. I was talking with Cam over the weekend. He and I got to talking about double or nothing on Twitter, Yeltsin mentioned, sending my thoughts to you. So if you had this to your show, so my thoughts are w nothing was a great show. Eight w is out to prove a point in tonight. They proved that point, the three main events, were stellar Dustin versus Cody was my favorite, plus the bucks against Luce Bros and omega versus Jericho, by the way on Twitter asked, what of those match, what match on double or nothing? Would you show to a non eighty W fan to get them to be interested in a w great? I don't know if you saw the poll, do you have any idea what got the most votes? I would guess Cody versus Dustin. Yeah. By pretty good margin. Fifty four percent out of over six hundred volts picked, Cody Dustin thirty percent. Pick bucks and Lucia Brose and only fourteen percent, Jericho, mega, which is interesting. I think that was the third best match out of the three but Jericho's like WWE name and omega is their Roman reigns. There John seen there, Steve Austin there Rick, flair he's going to be there guy. Probably, although who knows. That's that's someone can take that from him that I think that if dean Ambrose, if John Nazi turns out to be a bigger star. They'll welcome Kenny being, you know, number two, or number three because that'll mean success to others. But that said it does say something that those other two matches and at least you one of my Twitter poll, they thought no, let's not show them a WWE guy. Let's show them, what Cody and Dustin the story they told their or they're just great athleticism of the bucks, and Lew. Bruce. Yeah, it is interesting. And I guess I chose that because of the drama and because. A non fan may be more interested in that then, you know, the perceived high spots and things like that, certainly the lettuce schism has its place for for new fans and I think that would all them in, in certain ways, but the blood in the story from Cody versus Dustin. I think the match was good enough to where it also can show the athleticism and. The, the actual entering work to try to draw in a new fan, but also add the layers of the drama and things like that on top of it. He continues it wasn't really shocked at Ambrose. I mean Jon Moxley signed with AWS. And by the way, only letter know it's okay to call him dean Ambrose, like that's gonna take a while, I'd say a month into AWS TNT, that's when you should probably check your check yourself. But like right now, come on. I mean like I feel like everyone's like de nevers. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I think I've called them both. I've gone back and forth on this show talking about this. And you know what I'm talking about him in WWE, Ambrose, when I'm talking about him, you know, personally or going to AWS, Jon Moxley. So it kind of varies. So he goes, I wasn't really shocked that Ambrose something John moxie shine signed with AWS honestly, where else would he go? Well, new Japan. Good for him. I would be lying, if I didn't get chills seeing him walk through the crowd like that kind of reminded me, a Scott hall showing up on nitro nostalgia hit me really hard at that moment. But some a little things I noticed on double or nothing that you probably be fixed camera. Transition seemed a little quick all over the place and Ueberroth needs to get with it or get off. He seems a bit scattered. And at one point he mentioned, he didn't know what they were doing. I'm one of his biggest fans but the last couple of shows I've watched him. It just hasn't been the same. I think wrestling is exciting again. We have an alternative, I believe it's only going to get better. And the best is yet to come. Okay. So two things. Right. I want to get your thoughts, Jim Ross, and I want to get your thoughts on how optimistic you are Todd Martin, very optimistic on the flagship ship yesterday here on the podcast, he feels some just it's in the air. He's more optimistic than he's been in twenty years. You know, I mean going back to know ninety nine probably when things started going downhill a little bit with w or quite a bit with, w w so I, you know, your thoughts JR, and then just your general optimism. I thought air with fine. I've heard worst performances from him. He has a very narrow niche right now as far as what he's really good at calling. And then what he's kind of out to lunch. Cali, you know, the, the women's match the with the women from Japan or the wrestler OWI in in the opener. I mean he was lost on those, but you put him in a match like Cody versus Dustin or even Jericho versus omega. That's his element. That's those are the kind of matches he, he. Made his money. Call in WWE those high profile slug him out matches with a lot of drama. He's still very good at that. So I think the best use of him going forward is in those types of matches I would not put him out there weekly on weekly TV and I don't think that's something that his agent at this stage in his career he probably wants to do. I doubt the travel and everything is something he's interested in, but I think he can still add to those types of matches on major pay per view. So that's how I'd like to see him us going forward. Okay, I'm next op do from Chelmsford England, says one of the obvious names, I've been surprised not to have been rumored for AWS Austin Aries having listened to a recent interview he hasn't ruled this out after bound for glory made of it last year. He stayed relatively quiet until he got an ounce for M L W earlier this month. He's been everywhere he's a former world champion as instant name recognition and probably still is a lot more to accomplish in wrestling. My question is, what's the likelihood of Boston areas? Joining AWS you think someone like the Awa brash go out of their way to scoop them up? Thanks for the great work. Austin Aries no object from Chelmsford England, Greg. What, what do you think about Austin Aries fitting in with AWS? I don't know what his personal relationship is with with the bucks, and Cody and Kenny and Tony Kahn for that matter. And if he's a fan of his, but Austin beep. He people remember the locker rooms he's been in for better for, you know, he makes an impression he's super talented and carries himself with great bravado, AWS isn't a company where you would think his, his height would be as much of a detriment wasn't. WWE where man, I mean tool five live had a chance in Austin air. I think Austin Aries being the, the lead he'll out of the gate. Would have given that brand a chance to have that, that that bombastic large in the life central figure an agitator to also go out there and have really good matches. He's great at selling. He's got modern day offense. And he's all that punk kind of coq Cabana generation of wrestlers and would bring a lot have. Would've brought a lot to, to five out of the gate and it was just a little bit too late for him when for the brand to kind of get a foothold by the time he got there, but I think you'd be a talented addition to eighty w but that's I just don't know his personal relationship with the people who would make that call. Emailer says he's been everywhere. Yeah, there's a reason for that. So I agree. I think in Awa there's a lot of really intriguing matchups for him. That we haven't seen before m-l w maybe a bit of a test run. You know he he impacts whether or not there. Parting of ways was storyline or not it certainly appears like it was not at this point because he hasn't been back. But there seemed to be some bad blood from the way things ended there or it was just, you know, writing him out that way. So w my they've had success with guys, like low key and LA parka who've been difficult to work with and other places. So if Austin areas goes to L W, I'd, I'm not sure what his contract status is there. If he's locked up that he's locked up. But if not, that's a way to rehab is immig short term, and that may be enough to let the AWS know that, you know, he's he's ready to play ball. And, and they bring him over at some point. But yeah, he does have a lot of value. And I talked about earlier. There's a finite number of spots on the Awa roster. They don't have six or seven hours of TV like WWE is where they can carry fifty sixty wrestlers. So, you know, when when TV starts in the fall, they've got some positions opening up. But right now they're pretty close to capacity. So it'll be interesting to see if they make any more moves before then. Okay, I'll next we're winding down or the end here. But Dopp Bruce, h says, believe it or not. He's got an Awa coming on since AWS formed. There has been an abundance of by the way, I going to interject this, actually, I want to inject thinks I'm going to say this, I, 'cause all easily forget you mentioned, your boss. I wanted to elaborate I thought he was really, really good. Those last two hours and I was really with emailer on the first two hours, I felt that he was overwhelmed with new names and a an ultra, she wasn't used to working with Alex marvez. It's very green didn't know his stuff, which didn't help Ross know his stuff, I calibre had to carry things, but all three were sort of doing play by play because caliber new, the wrestlers and the names of the moves and the other two didn't in a number of instances. So it was it was clunky. But when we got to the storytelling that Jim Ross is was hired to do in his famous for and calling dramatic wrestling matches at Telus story and aren't just. A bunch of moves and that's not giving enough credit to the undercard. But I think for us, it was an was overwhelming, a lot of rest is, he didn't know doing a lot of moves that he doesn't didn't see without that pace and story. In cadence that the other matches did have more. So the Jericho Kenny match in the Codey Dustin match because certainly the Luce Bros against the young bucks. Had a lot of lot of action to put other us was really, really good in those, and I was like, okay he's the right guy for TNT because he's going to be more familiar with that talent by then and he's going to be calling them every week, and they're, they're going to be telling stories instead of just doing a bunch of moves to dazzle people with the athleticism with a little bit of personality, thrown in with people. He just doesn't know the backstory of so want to get that other, too. Nobody's emailing about takeover. No. It doesn't. Mean people aren't looking forward to take over and watch it. But awa. And we talked about our wage being affected by w this is a show where I would normally be talking about takeover in. We'd have questions about takeover, and I'm coal, Johnny Gargano Matt riddle Tyler breeze coming back to take on velveteen dream the, like the women's there's a lot to talk about on that show and people are feeling about it. No, it could mean they're just not controversial Awa the shiny, new toy, but eighty w has four this podcast push them out Todd Martin. I previewed it. We're Todd mostly dead on yesterday show. But yeah, other than Todd. We haven't talked a lot about it, because we can Email. It's aren't asking. And I wonder how much of that has to do with the fact that it's not attached to a WWE pay per view. As usually is. And I've gone back and forth on this does does being a part of that, you know, wrestlemainia weekend or summer slam weakened or Royal elbow weekend. Does that make the takeover feel more important or should they take over that stands alone? Feel more important because it's not sharing time with a WWE pay per view. It appears right now. It's not helping by not being associated with the WWE pay per view. But also. Yeah, the AWS story, you know, that's going to be the story for the next few weeks. I think beyond takeover beyond. Yes. Hooper showed in Jeddah, wherever that is. So think. I think that's you. You said it's the shiny new toy. There's talk about, you know, that's the other thing, you know, WWE pay per views they happen. And we talk about them for twenty four forty eight hours and then it's time to move on. But this Awa pay per view. There's no TV followups talk about. I mean this is a standalone that there was so much happening on it. And because it was the first one. There was so much to dissect that getting a lot of coverage. Yes. Yup. So back back to the Email itself since AWS formed, there has been an abundance of discussion, other wrestlers, who could leave WWE for Awa mostly from the mid and lower card with the exception of Moxley. However, what I do not seem to recall her in depth discussions on what this means for those who remain with WWE after what are expected to be a number of departures. Who do you see those wrestlers, who would willingly stay with me, aside, from contractual reasons, like the revival and who in the lower mid card in WB stand to gain the most from these departures from another angle who may be negatively affected by signing with a e w and y? Beyond money. I hurt. I hope double or nothing served as a suitable birthday gift for you. Wait. Oh, thank you. So, yeah, Greg, your thoughts on, on talent from WWE, who might benefit from future departures. I guess I mean, my hunch is Vince will lean in more towards the allies types, and Barron, Corbin tights, because Awa is going to be less apt to go after them. And so it might cause him to lean a little more into the wrestlers that he has more fun booking. And I think, you know, I don't look at anyone on the WWE roster on their lower card like Mojo rawley or anybody like that, say, you know, if they're in Corbin, if allies leave that's going to open up an opportunity for Mojo rawley. I think it's more than likely it would open up an opportunity for someone in the next t to make that to get that spot on the main roster because, you know, the guys like MO Jo and in no way, Jose, they're defined in their role. And there isn't a ton of upward mobility in WWE, even with as many wrestlers on the roster. Even with the injuries that we get and things like that. There are not a lot of guy. Guys who move dramatically up and down the card. Those, those spots tend to be taken by guys who were brought up from annex, t so I think that would probably be the most likely scenario who from an x t if you could just pluck somebody, and I'm a big fan of see. So I'm not trying to hurt annexed t when I say, I want them both have really good rousers. And there's enough good talent to restaurants for that to be the case. But who and annex t do you think is just a screams, as being a great fit for what we know about a w in their roster and who would fit in really well, with AWS this point. I think a lot of the guys not cop out or anything like that, but Awa and what it wants to be is more closely, aligned to what next he is, then WWE. So, you know, there are a lot of people at a coal, you know, all of undisputed era. Anyone like that of that ilk would be an asset in, in a w from what we know. You know, the velveteen dreams, the more gimmick wrestlers like that, I think would probably be a better fit for WWE but yeah, I think because AWS next t are sort of sharing the same landscape that I think there are tons of, of wrestlers annexed, who could be of value and be successful in aid of you. I it's a close call for me, but I think if I picked one name that I would like to see in eighty WBZ. No, it'd be a big subtraction. And I want to see his journey in annexed, end the WB may roster is Matt riddle. I think Matt riddle against Moxley against Jericho against omega against Cody against hangman page. I mean, all of them are great. You know what I mean, like so I think you'd be different fit in, and he's got height and personality. The I was just like everything about him would be great. But it's a close call with Adam Cole, and that's not to disparage my phantom for Colorado in his personality or Johnny Gargano and his talent. But yeah, those kind of the are the ones that, that come to mind as sort of met met would be a top umbrellas followed by coal, and then riddle riddles personality. I think sets them apart from anyone on the Awa roster. Whereas you could take Adam Cole and you could put him in Awa pretty successfully. But he's also got a personality that pretty closely matches some of the other guys in AWS for as a heel, but riddle is just so drastically different from a personality standpoint from anyone in AWS, let alone anyone in WWE. That's a whole other story. But different from anyone in AWS, he would certainly stand out. Yeah. Yup. I don't know who. He has like, who would stand who would be negatively affected by signing with a WNYC? I'm not sure that I can. I mean maybe velveteen dream if something happened where where he went there because I could imagine is I mean, I almost think he's can't miss. So I'm just sort of maybe grasping a little bit here to come up with an answer, and explain why. But I think part of it is, he's just so tailor made for Vincent man in the WWE main roster. Like I think that. His potential and WWE to be transformative. Breakout star for them is there and I think in a w they have omega Moxley and I just I don't know that. I don't know that dream would be able to reach the top tier the way that I think he has a chance to do on WBZ's make roster. So I guess that would be my answer, but, you know, I think he'd be fine either way. Yeah. Any any of those characters that are more heavily gimmick, I guess. Would be I think more successful and WW because like you said, I think they would attract the attention of instant man more so than than AWS, although they would have a little more creativity to play into that character and have some ownership of that character AWOL though. They may have to play a completely different character. He wouldn't be developing dream in AWS. So that would take away a little bit of what's gotten him over to this point now. That's not to say he can't get over in a completely different way in eight up you. But this is the character that, that he's cultivated annexed and he probably wouldn't be able to use maybe able to use parts of it. The whole in you. That's a good point. I will close with an Email that mentions takeover. But it begins with Awa of course. Benjamin says I was listening to you and rich earlier this week talk about double or nothing on the smackdown post show, a rare break from format don't like but rich was in Vegas. So we had to break them for a minute smackdown. Wasn't as newsworthy as usual? So we did. So, by the way, if you don't really listen to the smackdown postal for any reason, I encourage you to check it out. If you're into AWS star cast discussion because rich was air and conveyed a lot of interesting on site observations from that weekend. So anyway, back to match me goes, the discussion, you guys are having about the inside jokes being misunderstood in the pre show I disagree. I don't watch being the elite and Mel W or other promotions. And the backstage gags on the show didn't miss the Mark pun intended. While I wasn't aware of what the side jokes might have been. They were generally another to get a chuckle out of me and they seem to be introductions to BT and other world. By design for a fan like me, who doesn't know for me, double or nothing was a great wrestling show with great wrestling end characters that I got introduced to, and I started to care about through watching the show. I'm legitimately excited to see what they do next. Greg, your thoughts on on that dynamic. And how much of a follower argue of the approach that, that code that the bucks, primarily in hangman page. And, and m j f in Kenny, wh what are your thoughts on that, that series in its influence in where they should go like the bucks of said, I can't remember it was matter. Neck and I should I wish I remember because I don't like not remembering between the two so they shouldn't be interchangeable, because a very different people in real life, too. But one of them said, on a Q and A on being the elite last week, they don't know if they're gonna keep it going because they're going to be so busy with TNC and the weekly shows. So do you think it's something they should leave behind? And just have people look finally back at it and ended at the right time or should they try to find a way to keep it going even if it's every other week. And they put 'em F in charge, or somebody who had less on their plate. I think ending it with the beginning of the first AWT show would be the way to go. If you're going to end it. I'm not a BT viewer. I read three caps. So I know what's going on. And I'm aware of it. But I think they are very loyal to that fan base that watches BT every week that's been with them for as long as they've been doing this show before they got before they did all in before they did, Awa think they're very loyal to those fans who you know, give the elite crew their time in watching it. So I think they, they do want to cater to a certain extent to those fans, whether it's, you know, in jokes on the pre show or or what have you. They want to respect those fans for watching it. They want to reward them for watching. So I totally get that. And as someone who doesn't watch BT in who may not get some of the inside jokes. I also understand that, you know, that's partially on me. I don't watch. I could I don't and you know, if I don't get folks, I just had to assume there for the, the beanie league crowd night. I get that. And I understand that it doesn't upset me or anything like that. But I totally understand them wanting to reward those of yours. Yeah. He says WB streaming and workers in a relationship with Saudi Arabia are subscription canceling offenses for me tracking the more drastic drops in viewership seems to coincide with their promotions of the crown tubal event. Maybe I'm being partisan on that. I know it's affected. My willingness to invest in their products. But now, if you hearing John Moxley confirm all the worst leak stories about Ron's downs creative process through been sick. Man, it really sounds like a bad, as, as bad of a place to work as so many have exclaimed knowing that five hours, a live television is basically being booked through the singular narrow prism of a seventy three year old rich guy should be troubling to all WWE shareholders, especially since new, and bold competition as a rising with, w proud of that they should have been on alert since new Japan's move into the American market and success with Megan the bully club even before his match with Jericho illustrated, the whole professional world that there was to the whole professor world. There's not that there was not only a hunger audience, but an opportunity for a new well-funded, bold promotion to enter the American space to challenge them rise, become unwatchable, which is a shame because I'm a big fan of Becky Lynch, Alexa, bliss, and Samoa. Joe seeing. Them succeed would be great. But knowing Vince creates such a low and narrow artificial ceiling for these talents. All they can do is plateau through willful discontinuity in predictable negligence creatively, smackdown live now sharing the same writing team as raw has also become worse worse worse without robots work, the saving grace WB is an x t it's amazing to see how well annex t can sell the match Cole versus Gargano. That was a quick substitution for Champa Gargano, how well these stories are told and pay off from weekly TV to pay per view events, and how charismatic performers are given the space to explore their limitations and then exceed them like Larkin and Birch two guys that if on the main roster would basically be vaudevillians part too. I'm excited for each takeover event the matches of always exceeded expectations, which is a hard run because if they cease to fans will assuredly turn impatient upon them. So those are my thoughts. I do think it's going to be talked already a little bit about it. But it's interesting to see the code eight hundred dynamic as the to Cody a lot younger than triple, h by the way. I mean there's a seventeen year difference in their ages eight something like that. And the little lessen the difference between hunter and Vince, you know, but but he's a lot younger. So or wait. Yeah. I think that's right. I think I got that distance about right the difference. Right. So, but nevertheless, there are going at each other. And so that's gonna be fun to watch, and then just the next Awa namic? I don't know if there's anything that I could see eight w do better, like I don't have a real critique for them. I think that whole team triple h gets a lot of credit is a lead, and he is very hands on and very invested in it and deserves a lot of credit. But there's a lot of smart, people helping make that happen. But I'm a big fan of x don't have allowed to critique about it. I don't know if w will cause them to change or, or even quote, get better. But I think it's great that annexed exists as a successful popular. Well received while review template to help eighty w not just counter WWE, and all the things that people think are WB shortcomings, but also know there's a popular product. Out there run by somebody who might take over the main roster who are doing things structurally, logically, largely very, very, very well with really good talent. And so to me, the AWS dynamic is something to watch going forward, and they also don't eight of us going to a week and has a week. They don't run monthly pay per views. Each have probably about the same number of major shows ear. So those are the two parallel tracks to watch, including live attendance for takeover, special such as Bridgeport. I guess if there was a disappointment on the Jon Moxley podcast that he did with Chris Jericho it was that he didn't really talk about. Triple h is role in creating a lot of his all of his stories were his direct interactions, man. And you know, maybe triple h does have a lot of say on the main roster quite yet, you know, he's obviously in production meetings and is involved in certain ways. But I thought it was interesting that he didn't. Really talk about going to triple h with any problems. It was always going to Vince. It wasn't, you know, triple h wasn't his middle aunt or anything like that. You know, so. I don't know that was that was something that stood out to me is something that was stood out by virtue of it not being talked about was triple, h creatively, you know, it could have been Moxley could've said, well, you know, they're going to be in good hands, and triple, h takes over whatever like that, or make some kind of comment on his opinion of triple, h as a Booker or whatever you wanna call it and he didn't. And so that was a curious of mission for me on that podcast. But yeah, the NFC I don't think eight I'm going to have very much impact on an XT when it goes live in the fall. I think if any impact it would have on WBZ's main roster programming the NFC kind of flies under the radar and a lot of ways, and, and because it is so similar to AWS don't really know what kind of changes could be made to the next product to counter act. Whatever aid is doing. Greg. I some really good emails. I wanted to do a mailbag this week for sure because I saw these coming in with skimming over ome and the diverse places in the world and the diverse topics. And obviously people are excited about AWS, how it relates to, to WWE. So I'm a good show. I time just flew by this was a one of our shows we Don. I don't know if you've been clock watching, I haven't I'm shocked that we went a couple of hours here, but I'm happy with the conversation on the topics. We cover. Yeah, a lot of interest in AWS of different questions. That's one of the things we talk about dedicating so much time to w is. There are so many ripples around the wrestling industry, whether it's ring of honor, whether it's WWE whether it's annex t and we got asked about all three as it relates to aid, w so they're not just questions about all eat wrestling in a vacuum questions about okay? How does AWS this? How does it affect this? How does it affect this? So there are a lot of tentacles coming out of that, and reverberations within the wrestling industry. Yeah. Anything else about the Jericho podcast that you want to mention no, you might have more bullet points or talk. More about it on Sunday, although it's not really the major. It's not Mickley in the major event theme that you do with wrestling that in America, for the most part would take over and super showed on coming up and fight an even the next day, w car, taking shape with some matches amounts, not to mention Jon Moxley and new Japan. So, but oh, that's it? Anything else just jump out that we didn't get to regarding the Jericho pockets, you mentioned not as much triple, h talk, I will say. Maybe it's because Jericho was the host, and maybe it doesn't want to have a session, where Ambrose is praising triple, h given Jericho's done his best for twenty years to avoid triple h at all costs. So sometimes that can play into it, but agree with you. That, that would be good to hear from Amazon. But any other thoughts on that on that podcast before we conclude here and that not off the top ahead? I did tweet yesterday that I'll be writing about it, and my opinions in-depth and next Colvin the torch newsletter. So while I have time to reflect back on it. All right, my newsletter call him this weekend and then that will appear next week next week addition. So subscribe, everybody is free to the pe- w torch daily cast, Greg parks anchors, the weekends with well, along with Richard and he anchored Sunday nights with wrestling night in America. He does the post pay per view shows. So the time slot is different when there's a Sunday paper view, but otherwise colon and discuss the just completed or upcoming major events with Gregg, sometimes with a co host. You have to do a search Pete w torch on your podcast app. If you're listening to this show right now go to your podcast app. Search beetle you torch click. Subscribe on the with your torch daily casts logo. It's free. And there's a new show every day you don't have to download all the shows. Listen all the shows 'cause maybe you love our wage, but don't watch annex t or maybe you love major league wrestling, but we're all elite wrestling, but don't care about Emma may whatever it is. But there's a show for you on there that you'll probably be added to your to your podcast listening schedule. I'm proud of that, that series and the team we put together and sometimes I just binged listened to like four shows in a row after the busy part of my week. And it's just great. I learn so much from this. The people who specialize in the different brands of the different territories who immerse themselves in that. And it might get you more excited about and familiar with some of the alternative alternatives to WWE out there. So check it out. Just search PW torch. You can also check it out online the lineup and details at the homepage for the show, PWG. Daily cast dot com and I know this by now you can follow Greg on Twitter at Greg 'em parks, perfect. All right. Great thing. We'll look forward to talking to you Sunday or hearing choosing. Yup. Absolutely wait excellence. And while you're following Greg on Twitter, follow me at the Wade Keller on Twitter. You can follow our brand at PW torch, on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. That's at pito you torch. Please. Check out p w torch dot com for breaking wrestling news analysis perspective. History, flashbacks live TV coverage live pay per view coverage, including my reports every Monday and Tuesday night on Ron smackdown and my live coverage with star ratings that results in analysis of WWE, pay per views. Plus other TV reports from all the promotions all over the globe. That's p w torch dot com. There's content you'll find there. You won't find anywhere else. We have a really great team of contributors, putting up articles. You've just aren't going to find other places that you might go on the web for your wrestling updates. So check it out PW torch dot com. Also, check out em a torch dot com. If you're an MA Emma may torch dot com. Updated daily with columns and news and lifeguard, previews and live fight coverage, along with links to the latest Emma may torch podcasts. That's Emma may torch dot com. Thank you. Everybody will be by this weekend. With more content. This is the blue feed. The weed killer pro wrestling podcast feed, and I encourage you to hit refresh over the weekend and check out what we have coming up we might break from our scheduled little bit with something special that, I think you're going to be interested in so check for that this weekend, here on the Blu brand on the red brand the Wade Keller pro wrestling post show tomorrow. We will have the five years ago. Flashback Jason Powell, and I five years ago reviewed raw every Tuesday afternoon with the live cast format with live callers, sometimes onsite correspondence always answering bell bay questions analyzing raw in the news of the day, we give you a five years ago flashback every Saturday on the Wade Keller pro wrestling, Poche OFI, that's the red feet if you're not subscribing to that most you are. But if you aren't just search Wade Keller, and look for the red logo that looks just like this podcast blue logo except it says, post show instead of podcast on it. And click subscribe that will do it for me for today. What a week. Thank you, everybody. We have tons of eighty WWE nothing coverage and tons of Jon Moxley on Chris Jericho analysis from our team. We had over two hours of analysis for VIP members yesterday, or I guess, Wednesday and mortar com. Immersive Lee covering these big stories when they break. That's one of the things we are really proud of that we do with Peter Schwartz. VIP a wide range of opinions. I anchor over a dozen shows a week that our VIP exclusive in addition to the weight Keller podcast that you're listening to for free, but we have some great contributors who at different perspectives, different opinions. Sometimes we have spirited discussion slash disagreements about topics, and we, we welcome that and invite that and I think it's one of the reasons people value their VIP membership. They're not just getting one or two points of view and people. Nodding, along with each other. We get some and learn from each other and, and sometimes walkaway. Agreeing with each other. But it makes for good podcast content, I think in, we all learn from it and earner Tate. So check it out. PW torch. VIP info dot com. PW torch, VIP info dot com. You can sign up right now. And in two minutes have a full year of epi access no more ads, no more plugs. We edit all the ads out and has many of the plugs, as we remember remembered added out sometimes once lips by the but and then you get all the VIP exclusives, you can get a whole year of that for ninety nine dollars right now. So go to our sign up form and plunk down ninety nine bucks, and don't think about it again for a year, and you'll be covered through all of AWS fall, Royal rumble wrestlemainia next year. Everything that happens in between. You can also subscribe for one month or three months for a, of course, smaller amount of money. If you want to test the waters, or just not plunked down as much at once and we certainly understand that and we offer the three different plans for different budgets, PW, torch, VIP, info dot com. Thank you so much, everybody. If you're supported the show, even if you're not a VIP member, we appreciate every single. Listener we have. Thank you for downloading and listening. And now thanks to Greg parks, my co host today, thanks to our Email, or she did a great job with thought provoking informative probing questions, I think led to a good show today. So thank you. Sincerely for that, too. If you're a fan of the Wade Keller purposing podcast in Wade Keller. Pro wrestling post shows have you checked out the POW torch daily Kesselman up. Yet, it's new for twenty nine thousand nine formerly known as the POW torch. Live cast the POW torch daily cast features a new show every single day, Monday through Friday every afternoon. A new show drops Mondays it's enemy talk for pro wrestling fan. Tuesdays, it's elite major impact with Mike and Andrew covering all eat wrestling impact wrestling and major league. Wrestling. And then Wednesdays it's hardly an Emily with talking on her covering, you guessed, it ring of honor, Thursdays. It's PWG toxin exte- with Kelly, just and Tom and Horley and Fridays. It's the best of the POW torch life cast, where I pick a show from our archives, going back about ten years now covering a major event to major story or featuring one of my favorite interviews from over the years. And then on weekends we go live with the deep dive with rich fan on Saturday nights, where Rick van Goghs in-depth on a single topic with special guest and then on Sunday nights. Longtime progressing torch newsletter columnist, Greg parks. His live with wrestling night in America on non pay-per-view nights. He's live at eight eastern taking your calls talking about recent major events and professional wrestling from all promotions. WWE annex, t ring of honor neutral pan, and more or previewing upcoming big events, including the latest developments in announced matches. So check that out. That is the torch daily cast lineup. All you have to do a search p w torch on your podcast app or go to our homepage PW torch, daily cast dot com on the page. You'll find links to the upcoming live weekend, shows and links to the most recent post that you can download or stream right off our website. You can find out more about the lineup to at PW torch. Daily cast dot com or search POW torch on your podcast app. They are free and waiting for you right now. That's Peterbilt torch, daily cast dot com or search Peter, you've toured if you shop at Amazon, I have a request when you shop at Amazon, don't go to Amazon dot com. That sounds weird. How're you gonna shop at Amazon? If you don't go there. Well they'll go directly there. Start at PW torch dot com slash Amazon. That's p w torch dot com slash Amazon. When you go there, there's a giant Amazon logo click on it. It takes you right to the Amazon homepage where you were heading anyways. But that's small detour tells Amazon, we sent you there and when they get that message they sent us a commission on everything that you buy. So it's a great way to support us without having to do anything different other. Then when you shop at Amazon start at p w torch dot com slash Amazon. That's p w torch dot com slash Amazon. Thank you so much for your support. The satellite lounge presents an evening with the progressive box. Let's go tickling the ivories. He just saved by bundling home and auto. Progressive gonna finally by a ring for that gal of yours. Hugo, send condolences. Nice to treat. Yes. In my all. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Discounts on available in all states or situations during the whole family over to t mobile and gets awesome iphone ten are on us. When you trade in your old device, you'll be snapping streaming and sharing to your heart's content. Visit a store or call one eight hundred t mobile can get an iphone ten are on us. Twenty four monthly Bill credits. For well qualified customers, plus tax while traded hoarding service and finance agreement required. Contact us. People cancelling her credit stop more balanced sixty four gigs zero down thirty one twenty five per month for twenty four months pre-credit for I seven forty nine ninety nine zero percent. APR one offer perk out.

WWE wrestling John Moxley Vince Greg parks WWE Vince McMahon dean Ambrose Ron smackdown America Wade Jon Moxley AWS Awa Chris Jericho Amazon Rick van dean real pro wrestling Dean John
Machine Learning as a Software Engineering Enterprise with Charles Isbell - #441

The TWIML AI Podcast

45:21 min | Last month

Machine Learning as a Software Engineering Enterprise with Charles Isbell - #441

"Welcome to the podcast. I'm your host sam charrington. Hey what's up everyone. I just wanted to send a quick happy holidays to you and yours. Twenty twenty has been one heck of a long year and we're all excited about celebrating the holidays and the end of this journey. Whatever you do though. Be careful out there. The pandemic is not over though. It's exciting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. We'll be here delivering you great content through the end of the year so stay tuned for more a and m. l. episodes and once again have a wonderful holiday art. Everyone i am here with my friends. Charles is bell. Charles is the dean and john. Imlay junior chair at the college of computing at georgia tech. Charles welcome back to the tuomo. Ai podcast thank you very much. I am very happy to be is next to see. It is great to see you. It is so wonderful to have an opportunity to chat with you. We do not do it often enough. We were just reminiscing that you join me here on the show at episode number four on that was about four hundred forty episodes ago or or even more interviews ago back in september of twenty sixteen when i was just getting this thing going and thinking okay. Who's arm cannot twist in this field of artificial intelligence to get on a call with me for an hour and Jib jabbering gibberish ever. We did we had a great time talking about your work in interactive. Ai and I'm looking forward to catching up with you. But before we jump into wall another long rambling discussing. I imagine i'd love you to share just a brief refresher on your background. And what you've been up to in the past for years or so in oakland for years the wealth so i do and machine learning and in particular i care about interactive machine learning as you noted. That's where we worry about. Building intelligence systems that have to interact with dozens. Hundreds perhaps thousands of other intelligence systems. Some of whom might became a and. There's a lot of math that goes into. That was a lot of sort of theory game theory. There's a lot of effort energy engineering that goes and build those kinds of systems But it turns out at the center of it is trying to figure out human experience. Are you take advantage of a power. You predicted how you influence in how you make machines better by leveraging with human beings are good at and there's a lot of interesting stuff there. That's what i've been my research. Time on has been the balance of my professional times on education I worry about access and how it is that we can educate as many people as we possibly can many backgrounds we possible can and allow them to be better to actually manage to get to the places where they want to get through. Because i think that's the purpose of higher education. So that's what i try to bounce one time understanding who runs the machine learning person and understanding humans as the person and on the education side of things well as well as You or the nano creator or driving force or you tell us but behind georgia tech's on my master's in computer science which I think did a tottenham aac graduate education and see us more accessible kind of before it was cool or easier. whatever it is now more popular. Certainly butts. I still recommend that program because the you know the quality of what you get relative to the the cost is remains pretty impressive goal so we have your masters computer science. We are in our seventh year now officially about to start our eighth in a couple of weeks. we Went from zero students in that time to almost eleven thousand it is the first online mook base graduate computer science program from I'll just say elite university. At least in the united states of the goal is to again provide access to people who want to pursue an education in computer science and computing more broadly. We admit everyone. We believe we can succeed so on. Campus we admit maybe ten percent of the students or the online version. We admit something north of sixty percent of the students and of course i buried the lead the cost of the degree which is exactly the same as agree that's on campus is about sixty six hundred dollars as opposed to the forty five forty six thousand dollars. Usa typically if you came on campus same environments to get in same requirements to get out same education and the goes to educate as many people's you can't just put that insensitive scale. There are more people around than all of the graduate students in the colleges sciences and engineering. They might t combine as you know jordan textile largest engineering college in the country by quite a bit the college of engineering which has forty five percent of the faculty detect and forty one percent of all students the college of computing there now with by faculty as about forty percent of the students and the almost entirely due to the graduate population so the goal is to be big or maintaining quality and educate as many people as we as we possibly can and to do what we can to help people to do what they wanna do without sacrificing quality. I'm making certain that people can get out on the other end able to do interesting imputable and i think it's exceeded or at least is succeeding. Nice nice entertainingly enough. You just learn that your work with the college of engineering. The on my master's program was featured in an episode of malcolm glad wells podcast revisionist history. Tell us all about that. And the connection to your there. So malcolm gladwin Reached out to me what feels like twenty years ago but i guess it was just a couple of months and everyone talking to you about something i mean everything in twenty twenty feels like that many years ago asked me if i could add just chat a little bit with him and i said of course. I'm big fan of his weak fantasy show and he said he would tell me the secret of why he was asking you this a little bit a little bit later and so he asked me about two questions about ms actually some way. We're trying to do in sub saharan africa the to connect with universities since multinationals to do some education there and he told me why he was interested in i. I don't want to spoil it. Anyone it has to do with his father and his father's Interactions at georgia tech much. Georgia tech has had to change based on how they interacted with him many many decades ago. And how you now have a dean of the college of computing. who happens to the lack. I think it's actually quite a touching story. Then i found out this thing that he actually released it on revision history when i got text from people yelling at me for not telling them but it sure it's already started in the amount of time we talked so far and I actually think the story of his father's by touching inside recommend that's awesome. That is awesome so the main thing that we wanted to jump into here our time together is your recent invited. Talk at which is titled. You can't escape hyper. Parameters and latent variables machine learning as a software engineering enterprise. Admit i have not had a chance to watch or listen to it yet. I know i know it's been a crazy crazy crazy time but i wanted to take an opportunity to chat with you about it. And maybe a good way to to jump in is to have you kinda sharon overview of the talk my sense from both reading the title and observing some of the conversation. That's been happening on twitter. As a result of the talk is that you have an a quite skilful way blended a- conversation around what it means to do machine learning in the real world as well as kind of raised or discussed issues around diversity and inclusion in the field. That's my take you know. Tell us what you had in mind. Okay everybody should tell you this little bit of a prelude that one of the i got asked to do this and of course. It's an honor to do. I was happy to do it. And i thought how am i gonna make this work giving talks in this environment. Virtual environment has been incredibly painful. I think everyone particularly if you want to be able to interact with the audience and they said well you're going to record it you can. It'll it'll be fine. You do what you want to do. And i thought okay. Well if i'm gonna recorded. I might as well as interest and i've got a few months to do it so i have a few months and i procrastinate for only three months that will give me a these month puts together. I got with my good friend. Michael lipman whose. I've thought a couple of classes with and done some other interesting things with and we started brainstorming. About what you could do. This is what i want to talk about. How can we make this interesting. And we sort of spent months thinking this through had a communications team. We did all this This sort of brings together and in the end we decided that the right thing to do was to create a story that would allow of dialogue between people to dive into this really specific and timely issue around a bias in machine learning both for people who are just sitting in it but also in the way that is being used and deployed in the real world and so we wanted to be entertaining because otherwise let's together we wanted it to be actually be informative. We wanted to be technical but also accessible to people who either don't know about this specific issue or even new to machine learning which turned out to be both easier and harder than you could have ever imagined so we put this thing together Even code and i think it came up pretty well. The idea behind it was the the thrust of it. Is that an. I say this as a kind of a metaphor by a metaphor and a half the machine learning we tend to focus on the small agenda worry about the algorithms. The that i'm working on manage you know. Make it solve this particular problem i think is important. I'm not gonna worry about anything else. Because that's what i do. I'm the mathematician on the scientists and the very natural thing people doing all kinds of fuels but machine. Learning is just too big. It's too important is too big. It's important computer is just too big into important for us to pretend that this little thing that we're doing over here not gonna have all these knock on effects that actually have a real impact on the world and so we it's time to grow up. It's time to grow right that if we're that we think of ourselves as compiler hackers people are trying to solve a very particular language translation problem. We should be thinking of ourselves. Software engineers who used to be thinking about those programming language nerds. It is people who are building entire systems that will involve all kinds of stakeholders. And we're trying to describe the things we wanna do. In a way that is accessible both to us as experts in machine learning but also to other people were experts in the domains where these things are going to be applied and finally we have to be if not have to really understand the fact that this system that rebuilding will one day get deployed and we'll have real impact in the real world. We can no longer afford either intellectually or ethically to ignore fact that we have to build real robust And until that story not just from a you know it's the right thing to do point of view but also that if we take it that way if you treat it that way if you think about it that way than it means that we will actually be able to not just solve merging that. They're technically more interesting things that we could be doing. There are different ways could be thinking about. Ai and machine learning that a lead to intellectually stimulating possibilities and that we've been ignoring those possibilities in an effort to stay over here in the space and so that's kind the idea and it's told as a christmas. Carol with those from as president is and michael lipman screwed because of course he does. They're flying. Were michael complains that i've kassimis fruit and i tell him that he's old enough to be scrooge which is kind of a running joke in our lives about helmets older than i am actually is old enough to be scrooge it turns out that he's the same age scrooge was in the original sort of dixon's pixel names i always want to turn into john dickerson. Anyway the in the original story because it turns out that you live your mid fifties you led a hard life way back when and the oldest actually scrooge apparently was in his fifties appropriate. I think so. Michael lived the hard life so in there. You kind of start with this analogy of compiler hackers to software engineers. I'm back at a little bit. And what that all means yes. Oh by the way compiler hackers. I know there's lots of compiler. Hackers are mad at me. But i i need something very specific about that. Yeah an important thing that we do in. I'm just gonna pretend. I can just describe it as machine translation by were worried about solving a particular problem. It's relatively specified. There's lots of really cool interesting things going on there. But it's a kind of world where you have defined what it is and you know what the output needs to be worried about all kinds of interesting position propped. But it's narrow in a good sense but it's narrow in sort of its own once you start thinking about systems you have to start greening in other things. People will talk about system. I'm a software engineer. So then you do coding. No software engineer has actually understand. What specifications are they have to understand requirements. All you have to understand where things are coming from in our case. That's the data the problem and they have to understand how the systems are going to be deployed ultimately. That's the models that we if you want to think about it in terms machine learning largest systems. We as you want to think about from the and if you don't gather that entire pipe lock you don't think through the entire system which you might wanna think of yourself small park then you end up building systems. That don't work or worse. They work really well at somebody. Didn't invite them to work at inigo out in the world they cause real harm and that's intellectually dishonest and lazy and It's dangerous and in a world where these things are being distributed everywhere and they're being used by everyone. We can just no longer for to do that. And so when. I talk about the difference between software engineers and compiler. Hackers i really mean is the difference between working on this interesting problem versus having to deal with what happens when you have to be a part of a much larger systems including large parts of the system that you do not understand. You're not an expert in but nonetheless have to have in your head as you're trying to build snapper works without does not awesome new about yourself. You have to bring in all these other people you or you show up and after you're does and that's what we have to do. And that's really the kind of concede that's really sort of the idea here. And i think that we avoid it. I think they're gonna reasons for this. But i think that we avoid that reality because it's a lot more work yields like doing things that we don't. I'm not trained to necessarily want to do. But i actually claim that it's a it's better. It's actually better. It's actually more interest. It's just more interesting set of problems that have the nice side effect of being better for humans as yeah. I experienced a little bit of distance with your analogy living predominantly in the tech world. You know which is dominated by software engineering and software engineers but is still often characterized. By you know monoculture move fast break things and disregard for the broader systemic implications of what they're doing and in some ways you're still holding you're least using the same term as an ideal that we need to move towards in the la communities it apply more maybe in an academic sense. I take your point. I think you're absolutely right. It's very easy to think of yourself as a software engineer. Still be a necessarily narrow in the way you think about the implications what you're doing and it's very again to to do that is pittance at the oven. And i suspect that. I'll be guilty Sometime next couple of months. But it's an ideal right it's it's aspirational but actually more than being being aspirational. If you take seriously right. There's two things you should you can think about one is. I'm building a system. It if i build it wrong bad things out. So there's lots of examples of this. There was a set. phasers on stun. I think it's called you build a system. That is going to deliver radiation for x-rays and it turns out you. I is terribly built. And you literally kill right. Once that happens after our building systems you have to start. You have to build a methodology and you'd have to take care to think through how the system's really going to be used understand the use of you have to really build out an out. An average engineering is about that. There's lots of things that are about lots of systems thinking about that. It's hardly limited to community. But that's a part of what i mean and that's one thing that you get out but there's a second thing that you get out of it and this is the sort of thing i think you're talking about that not everybody does. Which is it's not just a matter of. Here's the user. I imagine and i'm gonna make that users going to be okay. It will be a nurse in a specific situation and no more that idea. Apply to what we're doing in in machine learning and i and computing general. It's not a nurse in front of a machine providing a service as part of doing an expert. It is a random person who's one of eight or nine billion people who had access to this technology and will use so the idea still applies but now you have to worry about a much broader set of users. You don't get the same. These people don't get involved because the is going to be out there and it's going to be used for all kinds of purposes. You haven't necessarily a man what that leads to. And i think this is sort of the second. Half of the discussion is it means that you have to involve as many people as possible with as many perspectives as possible experience as possible. In order to make certain that you're actually going to build systems that will in fact be useful in the world in the way that they're actually going to be used right. So that means that means bringing in people you would necessarily bring in or wouldn't necessarily want to think about as your users bringing having as testers and more importantly having them as people who are machine learning experts i think an easy mistake to make an easy lesson to draw that i think is the wrong is well. You know it might get used by these people who don't look like me or come from different backgrounds. So i guess. I should visit them figure out what they want. And then it'll be. Okay no you have to think of people not just as domain experts outside of what you do you have to make certain people from these kinds of backgrounds are also the experts in the machine learning the the computing offerings airing. All the other parts do in the first place to help to design. The pop summit has to be in the room to say. Maybe it's not a good idea to have the robot can be someone has to be in the room. Say that's not you say you're talking about crime but you're not talking about crime you talking about arrests. Those aren't the same thing. let me tell you. What my experiences have been with. You need people in the room. Who are getting the logically savvy understand as much as you do about whatever problem is trying to solve from kind of. Am machine learning competing. Views of it also headed set of experiences that will help you to think or broadly about the applicability of what it is. You're going to do. And i think that that's the part that london skip around but without that we don't actually solve the problem. We just give ourselves one more step illusion that we are. Yeah yeah it's I think it really interesting time to make that point about you. Know needing that alternate perspective in the room. Think the time we're talking about this. Recently tim nick gebru was recognized. I forget the word that they made up to describe your resignation resignation from google research. And i think we're all getting a sense of both how hard it is to be that person in the room and also how hard it is to actually have the person in the room and allow them to fulfill their duty of calling out the potential issues with what you're doing. Take on that odds on that. This is one of the things that the literature is very clear. Is that you get better outcomes when you have a diverse set of people in in in. I like that or you may think that's great but it doesn't matter the data the data. You better outcomes for lots of reasons but the other thing that the literature tells us that people don't tend to talk about is those groups are less happy right because maybe it's because they're being challenged made it because comfortable. Maybe it's because you know there's more fighting i did. I won't bore you with the details. But i did this exercise several years ago with sixty something other people and they had had is divided up into these little groups which they had done on purpose. We did not over like a whole year and we were working on these projects together and there was people my group. I live in a group of just got on my nerves. I can't even describe. The i mean i liked them and respected them but really to sit here for fifty minutes and talk about you know your daughter. I don't care. I want to do this problem. And they brought us together to halfway through this year and they divided up again and they divided up based on personality traits. They had decided that we had and it turned out. I got put in this in this particular group of people and it was the most fun i'd had in the six months abuse doings. I mean we were completing each other's sentences. I mean we were joking. Everyone was laughing. Actually said you know we've been recording. You notice this the loudest any of you have been in the six months that we've been doing this all the time times work together. You're much more quiet. And it's because they had put us with people who thought the same way that be at the same experiences you get. It was fantastic was breath but the different groups brought up in had completely different tastes on the problem that had been put before us. We saw the road completely different and each of us was worse off for having not had the perspectives of other people tended to think different and i got a lot from experience from experiences. Man it's easy to surround yourself with people who are like you and so much more fun and man. It is irritating round circle people who think very differently from you but you have to do the ladder in order to succeed and so what we don't do. We don't do the hard work of saying we're going to bring in these diverse voices and we're going to deal with the fact that it's going to be somewhat less comfortable and we need to create structures and ways in which we can make people both more productive and happier as a part of that and i think it's worth it. It's clearly weren't i'm not gonna say anything specifically i was going on its google. I'm not in there. I don't know what's happening. I've done enough. Hr stuff and managing people to know that there's always five thousand sides to every story even if it only involves two people but it is certainly the case that it is easy to create an environment where everyone is happy unintentionally just by bringing people in and not doing the next steps of thinking through carefully how you make that work. It does raise questions around how to operationalize are put into practice. Some of the things that you're calling for given the level of discomfort that's created by having the diverse voices in the room and the folks that are willing to say. Hey maybe we shouldn't be doing this or don't do this. What also needs to be in place so that the organization can take advantage of those voices. I mean it's hard. If i knew i knew the answer. That probably be doing something different. But i think editors Up you can do right. I mean you set expectations. I mean he makes a. I hate to use state but you makes bases safe. You tell people that it's okay for him. By the way this goes from the top down right is is a leader in the room as manager or vp or dean or chair professor. Whatever you have to say it is okay for us to have these difficult discussions and it's gonna be okay It'll be friends afterwards and we're going to move forward because we're united by some. They're some goal. We're trying to accomplish and this messing ear. It is a better place and none of it's personal interview can get people to buy into that and you're willing to take hits yourself with someone who might beach leading the group then people will do it and they typically are okay. You have to find other ways to keep people talking though if you allow people get upset and the golf in their separate ways and sorta student things eventually get bad at if you meetings regular things where people get to say out loud. What's bothering them. And i mean this is a candidates. All old hands at share are feeling sense. Just to hear the things. I'm trying to do. I didn't realize you were trying to do something similar. How might resolve this. You just kind of keep the conversation going. I found that in general those things work better but in the end it's people and people are people and people are going to do with people do and you just have to accept it but if you can create expectations where people know. This is a place where you can speak up and by the way the price of you speaking up is that other people will seek out back but in the end. Still get the same place you can. You can usually make that work so returning to tear nervous target. You said you started out with kind of an exploration of the past. What was that it was about. Software engineering is about theory There's a really nice example. In their mike many of you will never make recurrences wrote the code and is One of the founders of theoretical machine learning or at least one of the people who did in early days A great guy. Greg basketball player and squash player. He's kind of annoyingly. Good at everything anyway. he's a really nice guy talked about how cybersecurity was like his game. Just like you know is only someone comes something else in us kind of never. You never get anywhere until people start signing of other terms very carefully thinking what is what is it. We're actually trying to accomplish. What is it. we're actually trying to get right What how do you define your term and once you put something on sort of stable theoretical in the grounds you can actually make progress right. And so there's a lesson there combined with what we know about software engineering and and how you can make mistakes. If you aren't careful so you just think about what we learned from the past you realize that the end of the day clear definitions methodology and thinking beyond the problem. That happens immediately in front of you are all necessary. In order to make significant progress that actually impacts the world or at least. It seems that way to me. And that's what the pass was mostly about. It was also about laying out the arguments against caring about this The most common one is It's not about the the is unbiased. The outrun doesn't have problem. It's just the data and if we have the right data everything will be fine. And so therefore i can pay attention to just the algorithms but it turns out. That doesn't make any sense first off. It is your problem if your data has problems and you need to deal with that second lane if you know or believe were worried that the data you get is not representative of the problem actually wants to solve the how things are going to be deployed later. Then you need to build out rhythms. That will understand that and will react. According you don't do that then you aren't actually solving the problem. You claim to be solving a made a proxy problem. That won't actually be as used making a paper nerves while agian back that you before to want to have. And i think that's actually a key and important thing to think through but also you know our have buys by definition. I think it's a different kind of ice from people when they're talking just locally but they do and albums have hyper parameters and either those hyper parameters can affect what is learned or they can't they can't. They're not useful. They don't mean anything so if they can than it actually does matter how you set the knobs and you tweak things out to get the output that you would like to hatch and so you can't avoid that even though we do look i had someone call me up once And ask me about some work is done in the late. Nineteen nineties early. Two thousands of reinforcement learning and he said so what value of lambda did use organic. And i said oh. I think it was point seven. Why did he point seven of because that was the default in the code that right. it wasn't and it worked because it worked. I didn't have to care about finding the right gam right. We all do that right. We we have all these parameters. They're supposed to mean something. We kind of do whatever it is that works. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work out in the world and that's really easy easy to fall into and it's not a very software engineering view or but it is over fitting to the problem in front of us and that's supposed to be something we don't believe it was a yeah. Yeah and what's your take on. Can aware we are on what where the priorities need to be in terms of defining the common terms and methodologies that you reference you know there have been some initial efforts around you know things like model cards and data set spec sheets. That kind of thing seems like there's still a long way to go there are. We're we're very far away. I mean that's that makes it exciting right. I mean i would just love to have a definition of fair. That made sense Me about this news. Just it is amazing to me. Are you can come up with multiple definitions fair all of which seem fair but leaked completely different outcomes and just understanding that is in of itself injured. I mean there's there's certainly multiple dissertations just in the question of defining. What does it mean to have accomplished him. Notion of fairness or balance or pick. Whatever word you want to do never sort of practice of how you this kind of implemented in real world and not just english definitions but mathematically sound definitions of fairness. That are very different. We haven't even touched on culturally grounded notions of brain right it. We're gonna come up with something that makes sense in. I don't know the united states. It make sense in some foreign land like canada. Do very your things like these. This thing called the metric system. Know very strange people out there in the world. And you think you're like them you think you're you think you're different from them just figuring out how you're gonna making stanzas things working. Truly generalize is actually very difficult and very difficult for individual. Engineer scientists computational whatever you want to call yourself to even mad and so to me and this you know you know me you don't be well in some people will joke that this doesn't sound right coming from me but i mean it you have to have humility what you know in what what ability you have to actually predict how something's going to be used in the world but just coming up with those. Those are technical and medical notions of what it is. Were actually trying to do. I mean that's that's exciting stuff. And i a decades of work to do. That's face and we having got to the part of how you're going to bring the people into even point out to you that the definitions are coming up with. Don't make any sense in their environment or in their world and they're experienced. Yeah yeah yeah. Are there analogies that you've seen in other areas of engineering or software engineering for how these not necessarily these kinds of challenges but similar types of challenges have been addressed. Yeah i mean so my you know my observation in one of the problems with being an expert in one thing that you realize how much you're not an expert in something else so this is not my area of expertise right but my observation a way engineering and science of time is there usually forced on you by some major disaster and you overreact to the disaster and often good things come out of that ever does but you know the examples that i always think of in the back of my head or things that happened in aerospace right like you can't get the days without off the think about safety cots it's built into what you do and that's a good thing that i i was at this I dunno it was a convening of people a at the white house or something and they brought in these people from these different backgrounds people from a health and medicine. Specifically there were people from boeing. The airplane people And there were people from various forms of academia. They're all these accounting there. All these people from these different here and you got these people in a room and they're talking about a uk and it takes you fifteen minutes to realize that they're all using the same words and they're using radically different and it's because they're term tax of what's important like you cannot be in the business of building planes without thinking about safety all the time it's all you that's the single. Most important thing probably looked me but in medicine. You're worried about privacy. You're worried about are. You also worried about safety. Privacy matters as much more wiggle room. About what is it needs to be successful or not you know. Chronic mors is acute. I mean all of these different in. They're just the problems they're caring about. Whether you didn't think about the world so so radically different when i look at other fields and other experiences you get out of it is that they're also very different in the things that matter to them but they're mostly driven by disasters. Things that happen that forced them to say you know we will do no harm or force the focus on privacy. Your focus on safety your focus on this. I just think the world is better if you think about it before the disaster happens because it happens and you have very little control over. What's going to drive your field for the next five or ten years because other people are gonna come in and tell you so the next part of your talk was the present tells among will that is probably one of the things about the dog you realize halfway through the past. The president of the future are certainly pushing together. The president's where we are the president is the fights about whether you should care about this at all right. It's a lot of good work is out there as you said you know. Lot of proposals about how we think about things like bias for example. But we're still at the point. Where arguing about whether that's even a problem not much less. Whether it's a problem were consider you know you'll recall. It was just a few months ago that we had to stay. Blow up on twitter around pulsing style again that would turn people of color in the people of somewhat less color. There's a picture of me floating around other the league. It started with a bomb and ended with me. That's all i gotta think about it. You know i just figured charleston be roughly on the same level of importance when it comes to this at least as far as the search because the algorithms earned his both into very different looking white people who mildly related to some distant cousin of ours in my case gave me blond hair. It was all very disturbing presence that we're in is really an argument about whether we should worry about this at all. I think it's. I'm personally looking forward to getting past the president into just agreeing that these are interesting research problems that we should be focusing at fresno for you. The present to me should be short. Because is where we're living right now. We need to get past it and move on into the future and the future which is also the present and past the turns out in the past. it turns out. Did you provide any Crystal bala insights into the future or more directionally. The things we need to be thinking about the only two thirty two parts in the future in one is a bit of a term so there's kind of the technical question of the future and those are just sort of laid out. Here are the kinds of places in time thinking about your the interesting problems. We could be doing some of them. I think are kind of obvious. Some are less but for me. The real future is long-term. It's less technical in other words. The point isn't here's what you should be focusing on outer with mickley. Or here's the allergy that you should be working on that. I'm gonna push on you because i think it's the right thing. The future is really creating the set of people who are going to be prepared to lead the conversation right so we need to be looking at the people who are ten years old right now because they're going to be the ones who are going to solve this problem in twenty years so that's about education about getting people in to realizing this is important in their lives whether they're going to do a machine learning they're going to do something else abba just to be facile in thinking about things like this so that they can make reasonable decisions so to me about the technical one and that's interesting but it'll come on its own but the one that will come on its own is making certain that more people are engaged in the conversation that they have the technical background the understand computing as they unafraid of taking derivative because someone told them they should be and that they were part of that conversation in there in fact in the room. They're in the room when the conversation happens to me. That's actually the heart future. You get enough people in the room. Then the technical stuff will come because they're smart people out there trying to solve difficult problems that will just have mother. Necessity will do the right thing. But if you don't have the right people in the room you're not even ask the right questions to to look at the interesting problems much less. Find the right solutions. That's the thing i worry about is whether we're going to get right. People grim five ten twenty years from now. Yeah well taking a step back from the ten year olds. Are there things that you're doing are looking to do with alarm. Cs program to as an example kind of incorporate coursework or classes around ethics in particular or a humanities more broadly social sciences. More broadly as that already in place or is it a direction you're looking at. Do you think that's important. It is in place and it is so Been developing courses at the graduate level for this. But i think even more importantly we've been doing at the undergraduate level so georgia tech for decades over twenty something years as always as required what we call ethics course as a part of the bachelor of science degree science and that it's called an ethics course. It's actually more professionalism course on which actually think it's more important in fact i don't tend to talk about ethics talk about responsibility. One of my goals is for georgia. Tech to be number one in responsible computing and i think responsible computing includes ethics but it includes professionalism just includes thinking about the consequences of what you do in taking ownership of those of those consequences so that you can build systems. That are more robust in better. So i'm bringing that up because this notion of responsibility which has been bill in again. Into course would we've had undergraduate level for decades now. We have made some significant revisions to them over the years and are in the middle of doing something that i actually think is quite important. South take a second to tell you about so the first thing is we had this. Class is actually the first class iii Was around this notion of professionalism ethics just thought once but it was a great introduction to teaching and competing for me we have expanded at so there's a focus on computing. There's a focus on robotics. There's a focus on privacy. There's a focus on data. There's all these different options you can do and contexts. That's what we do contextualized. This sort of context you could use to think about a responsibility ethics and professionalism so this year we updated our curriculum because what was happening is people would take that course in to be the last course cake and what's the point of waiting until the very last thing you do to start thinking about if it's one that's very strong signal about how this is actually bad worked and vague memories of being a senior. This is like your mind somewhere else. You're you're doing what we did. Is we decided. It's not only going to be required. It is a prerequisite for our junior design secrets though we have a on junior design course. One semester is all about design and other semester dot implementation. It's project learn all kinds of things. I will go to all kinds of things out about systems. Starting next year the requirement for the course one of the ethics professionalism responsibility courses will be to be a prerequisite for that so before you get through junior design. You're going to have to have already thought hard about this. Not your first semester. Because you don't know enough to have context to realize what what's possible but not to your last semester when you wish you'd had that context order to think about leisure but halfway through got him background we're now going to make you think about these things you're going to be using it when you do design start asking these questions about implications responsibilities of the systems you're building and potentially deploying and then using that before you take machine learning with were injured in before you take advanced cyber security all of these things that you're going to be doing you will be thinking about very early on in the career ideas to integrate. This and i think that without integrated into the curriculum you. Don't you need to send the signal that it's important but you also don't give people the opportunity to put it in practice in an academic environment where you can actually explore. So that's what we're spending all of our energy. It's about responsible. Respect the computer while the and yvonne at pushing that forward changes the conversations that are happening in the later coursework project work so that some of these issues are recurring in specialty courses as opposed to just in the responsibility course. So that's the idea. i mean you know. Ask the environment in years. Eleven of data to be sure but even have done this stuff earlier. You definitely see it happen. And the students claim at least is what they want. So i think they'll be engaged in having those conversations. The courage integration. I think things about these things very differently from even the you know half generation before sort of things about the responsibility our entire curriculum is designed around this idea that if we can give you proper context by the time you get to be a junior or senior you are situated in such a way that you can ask interesting questions and do interesting work what responsibility professionalism has to be a part of that or otherwise. You're saying it's not an important context doing interesting things. So you're taking a machine learning course and you're dealing with data and supervised learning or reinforce or whatever it is you're doing and she learned course and you haven't yet thought about the implications of data privacy and helping things us when you don't have to teach you that machine learning or you just not going to think about it until it's too late so my ex asian is that if i know by the time you take the answer for me that you have had this experience then. I can integrate it into the assignments that can integrated into the discussion. Because i don't have to teach it to you for two or three weeks before we can get into the other stuff. I'm doing and so will actually have the side effect hope of allowing faculty to think about how what they're teaching what they're doing. Their passion is impacted by these notions of responsibility without having the pressure of being philosopher who understands ethics in trying to teach it from scratch to a bunch of students. And even if the you don't particularly want to do it. I'm hoping by the way that we teach students will bring it up themselves. And the conversation will naturally lead to a better curricular and academic outcome. Yes i'm very optimistic. That this is the right thing and that ultimately this is what everyone will be doing just kind of built in and twenty years from now. People won't even be able to imagine a time when we weren't doing Awesome awesome but in throughout your talk. You've raised a ton of issues asked a lot of questions for which we don't have good answers. Did you kinda of wrap things up with any you know. We should do prescriptive next step for folks or is that an exercise left to the observer exercise left to to absorb it but i will tell you the thing that i did leave with him and i think this is. This is true. Certainly shoot me in the end. I'm optimistic. i really think that we're living in difficult times. But then when it difficult field for machine learning and i and computing actually generally speaking. We are living in difficult times. You're having to mature and wrestle with the fact that the things that we're doing are actually impacting the world and it can go very wrong but the point is not that. There's a horrible future in front of us that we have to avoid. It's that there's a wonderful future in front of us that we have to embrace and walk down that path as quickly as possible. So i come out of the whole experience and not just from a narrative point of view. But i genuinely believe this thinking that we're going to end up in a good place there's gonna be some bumps and there's gonna be some mistakes that we're going to be okay and i think that we're going to make the right decisions at least in trying to think about these problems whether or not we make the right decisions every day about whether to deploy this or whether to set landau gamble two point. Seven point four weird to do the right thing. At least i'm hopeful. Awesome awesome charleston's great catching up with you. What we did not still all of your thunder. You should definitely check out. charles's talk. I certainly well but once again it is always a pleasure to catch up with you. Let's let's not wait. Another four hundred forty episodes for sure for sure awesome. Thank you thank you all right everyone. That's our show for today to learn more about today's guest or the topics mentioned in this interview visit tuomo. Ai dot com. Of course if you like what you hear on the podcast please subscribe rate and review the show on your favorite podcasts. Thanks so much for listening and catch you next time.

college of computing georgia tech Michael lipman Charles sam charrington Imlay junior elite university malcolm gladwin kassimis united states tim nick gebru dean saharan john dickerson
Episode 3: How To Heal A Broken Heart And Who To Love

Phoenix: Rise From Your Own Ashes

12:23 min | 1 year ago

Episode 3: How To Heal A Broken Heart And Who To Love

"<music> hubs up originals fallen at lisa's beeping and things fall in love with all souls or beings fall in love without any expectation of game four window by that to avoid born in low offers booed affection and have fallen now first of all with yourself. Hi there this riady back with another episode of phoenix rise from your own ashes before they begin to remember your victory tree lies in holding yourself together even after falling numerous times in this episode we will talk about how to heal a broken heart and say goodbye to be and you know you are healing and you don't try to forget because you're okay with remembering so in order to heal first of all for you. Forgiven is the first step towards healing no matter what the nature of your penis forgive the person who caused you pain without wishing them back forget to boston for y'all auden peace and wellbeing in order to understand why forgiving is important think about what happens when you are angry with someone you keep going to the buzzed lost recollecting what caused the pain and how much it told you you keep thinking about your perpetrator. You keep fighting with him. Sometimes with them mm-hmm sometimes with yourself. It is a constant fight within you which keeps you risk this and causes more. Can you ever heal could keep scratching and you're not only linda. The woman get was same goes with emotional being on the contrary. When you forgive the person take a step away from queen and the process of detachment begins now. Let's talk about how to forgive as easy as it sounds. Sounds forgiving someone who put you in the situation where you're keep aching stuff. How can you forgive someone. Who else did you heart and soul. The answer is yes. It is a mind game. You have to daniel mind that it was not the person but the situation that for strong the same person must have been good to you somebody the same person must be good to somebody else. Instead of blaming the person accept what happened as an important lesson that life wanted to teach you for your own growth food clear your head of any negative with deanne in your head forgive us. You don't have to wait for them to apologize. You don't have to go to them to dowden that. You don't hold any grudges against them anymore. Just you have to know your don't lose once you forgive. It is important that you don't go back to the same person you go to the same person who broke because you think on lead them we can fix you. You blame yourself thinking. It was a fault in you that made them change that there was something that made them love you and if you become the same pushing you work they will also be the same person they will use stew cling onto those moments that brought to closer in tings quit for some time without realizing that the time has passed the boston has moved on and and it's wendy you who is insisting on being stuck binning force hope on reunion contrary to what to believe the truth is that you need to distance yourself from your source of damage to repair in here you need to move away from that person and move on to all yourself to deal with the pain that the spokesman has caused i i know it's easier said than done and when i talk about it i'm new outside. Oh i've been there. I have been through it. I've experienced every every single moment and every hour of being very deeply and so when i say you need to move will be a newborn nor that i'm speaking from some experience. It just got to cherish the happy moments that you spent with them but it is polished to forget the cause of the pain that you are today. It is wrong to rethink being from the same source twice despite being aware but before you try to delete the entire chapter from your life let's post from the cherish movements when you were in love and you'll love and happiness who need to keep the feeling and confidence that you can love your dissolve and you will get from the separation. You need to learn to be able to live without someone. You have to learn that nobody can be there for you want the time one set knowledge leaves in it. It is important that you don't use another person and don't jump into another relation do not rush into another person complex immediately up to one relations and this is not your heart but your mind trying to seek the same love attention and emotion support trump. Some other source do not use another person to get to with the person when you love the fact is that at this point you're extremely vulnerable and you tend to fall for anyone who softwoods after on what does he. We need more than love this. You will not only make a wrong decision for your so but will also be unpaid to the person you coming to no. Let's understand the metal forever see would hurt our expectations for april which has no definitely forever has no fixtures and impact back. There is nothing called for for example two best friends thing the friendship would last forever what they mean is that it would last to die but dodd awed going to die at the same time. Eventually one of them will die but the other it wasn't a forever and he's left wanting to be but it's time signed for him to make new friends. Maybe involve more reduce what they're now. You may blame love enable to feel it again but you have to be courageous. Here's enough to take another shot at to dissolve. You have to love again. You have to fall in love repeatedly till you begin to rise and for this time mm-hmm. I have a few precautionary measures to suggest firstly. Don't be ashamed of love. It comes with a shock to me that people today are ashamed of love out of loving someone of having feelings for someone and of their own need awfully tough. Love is the most feeling in the squad and you should only only be proud if you're able to feel for someone say guindi save yourself from getting attached to a wrong person getting dash to a wrong person. Can it'd be extremely dangerous. They was dating and damaging for retrial. Choose your relations by sleep. You may think that it's not in your control but let me tell view it is who need to decide to take charge and lead. You need to quench asleep. Decide who you want to get involved. Do not give into a moment of attraction infatuation or inclination attraction is natural and obvious but you have to decide who you want to invest in just as your questions just by making any monetary investment be more cautious and careful by making emotional investment wanna see off now. You can't fall into a river mm-hmm. Next new. Expect from people say do not expect. I say why not it is very natural and obvious for anyone to expect absolutely normal forget humans. Even any modes expect feed the dog twice and he will come every day at the same time expecting food. What an expectation shen. Is it not another form of hoop being hopefully with motor mounts identity that the other person in reciprocate your feelings emotions and services. Let's in fact expectations. Help us have better and stronger relations. What would a person mean to me. Were expected thing from with expectation. You please a lot of faith and confidence and that relationship if i'm dating a guy and i can't expect him to women importing pod and what do i need him for dwy. Not expect a reminder tone of passover assist to my company. Do i not expect from my own self. I won't say won't expect expect. I say no who to expect from one to have been belittle and disappointed by someone there is no point holding on and infect no fall in the world expects picked from everyone we ourselves by default selective we choose awful are fluids our profession education and people likewise we we know what to expect from and before we expect me invest where the financially intellectually or emotionally when these expectations are not don't just let it goi- drop in visiting the moment you stop investing you stop expecting. It's like you will not expect interest from the person. You never lent money to well. That's how how the brain functions next. Take responsibility not blame. You have to know the difference between taking responsibility and taking when you took responsibility for everything that happens to you you please yourself at the superior position where you have the baltimore your life events on the other hand. When you take blame for everything that happens to you you start looking down upon yourself in belittle your own world so i read take responsibility huddling became the home you see become the home that you wish to live in this time to non build a home in manila. Be the home that you belong to be your own. Source source of comfort happiness enjoyed to just in case this person moves of yours not adjoined. You will not feel homesick. You will be as happy as you will with them now. Let's talk about who to love. Love yourself is divorced answer. Give yourself warm that you would give to the person you love the most. I pamper yourself. Libby would bump with the love of your life. Look at yourself asmatullah mauritian as they would look at the person. You need a deeply poor. Love your said said the week you would love the person you love the most accept yourself in the most undesirable cheapen situation love yourself before anyone this also noth- the people who love you it is as important love the people who love you as it is to love yourself. Most of us are actually thanou drowning after people who do not know our most of us are baking someone to stay when they are showing cedo interest in being part of our story. We are making ourselves. I self victim by focusing on wrong rectors when we can be the heat whose if only we start reciprocating defection to the same people. We are receiving frahm tom. We are crying for someone's attention acknowledgement and affection. Why do we have the choice to spite love for people who believe in us who love us remember that you will never have to beg someone to stave the belong to you. Remember that there are people who are dying in crying for your love just as you crying inquisitiveness late can become so much easier. If only they begin to make choices that bring smiles pot sufferings remember to love the people who i love you. This is all for this episode. I'm sure will help you heal and feel healthy both mentally and emotionally i pray to the unit us to bless all souls and beings who are in pain. I printed the almighty bless us peace and positively she had this podcast with others and help them true. They cannot be a gift more precious and more tuition. I'm sending alvin boom to my entire flock of phoenix. You are a beautiful soul. See you swim. Ooh how fun would it's not just the nikkei yep. I'll be of nevada's launch talk then they'll hop hobo studio website beer just stuck at it aikman again that end up knuckled podcast launched getting yet he no he studio the up woody. Avi gubbay of nepad cath launch can miki sin dean john steph smith though sodomy of podcast shoot there yet just hop on hop simply content.

boston lisa deanne john steph smith manila phoenix dodd nevada alvin boom Avi gubbay binning wendy aikman Libby baltimore
Arrow S8E3 Leap of Faith - Super Tuesday Recap

MTR Network Main Feed

25:17 min | 1 year ago

Arrow S8E3 Leap of Faith - Super Tuesday Recap

"Welcome back to recapture hose Chris here and we were. Here's review Arrow season eight episode. which is three leap of faith? You have you know what I don't are. We have real snobs over this. I JUST WANNA say Great Job Katie Cassidy. She directed played volume two. Yeah she directed this episode and Oliver's greatest hits coming back so I wouldn't call falling off the mountain. Africans Davin to the chest can bring that shit up. I I mean you know why we gotta bring up. I get it I know to say you know I was there with the fun pride. I felt this deal. Go through my chest yes aside now Yeah no this is another another great episode and I you're right it's I'm I'm loving right now. I'm loving the aero greatest hits of and they're not doing it in the obvious ways of like you know isn't it. It's I've really enjoyed the way. They're handling the way they're doing it. It's it's still showing growth of Oliver while still giving us to see some characters and scenes mixes and matches. We have here. He having having Talia in in in in Spanish speedy you know theater show up and Oliver dealing with thea again. We were just talking about flash in the. The black father had moment of of Joe Hugging and talking about how Berry not being able to death my man. I got a little choked up without hug from from from the Ollery. Oh like it it talking about this. LITTLE FLASH IS A testament to how well these actors and crew Katie gasser directing already mentioned with the writers the the the Viagra for everything the shots they choose the way they choose his little they know these characters intimate after eight years a better and for Catholic. The actress name. What will the holy place we'll take you all and we haven't seen her initial a little while to like an old fucking shooman? You'll I mean again. This is one thing we brothers over China white you know fees on one was characters is from the beginning you know this is just as much of a of a kind of a goodbye because they also kind of leave it open to. Maybe we'll see her again later down the line but like you know this is kind of a at least with her in Stephen a mill. This this is an actual goodbye. Like I don't know if they were really acting there. You know it's like this. Is they started this as an again we can and say oh you want about you know acting abilities and things like this one thing. I think that that was very very apparent. With with with Arrow through all these seasons even all the way back in the season some one steven did really really good and paired off a certain a certain actors and actresses and him and Willa always always worked out like that relationship with the Queen. Nuclear family didn't heal right. The Queen family was always like honestly at this this point I just I need Wall Street to show up to. I kinda need him I just by why not but like that family that family dynamic and then we always worked out with them in so having Oliver kind of say the kind of a good by more than also watching her disintegrate in front of his face. I guess I was kind of a good bye. But they're also kind of horrifying goodbye as well like just twice cabinet in like leaving the answer. Are you buy for real for right ally until the credit for old. I was Kinda worried because I was like I mean they they did they. I mean they did Maurer kind of dirty but anyway but like you said it's like having that relationship between them in and those moments and even you know when they're on the side of the mountain in there talking in you know she's like come on Yo. You're you're usually you haven't been this overprotective on me. You know in a long time and you probably ever he was like oh I was just in a world where you didn't exist because I wasn't there to protect ex- you and also have left my family and you're all I got right now like it just like with. We talked about this with flash. They're making these emotional moments in these emotional turns where sometimes in previous seasons. They've been kind of a stretch. It a little bit here. It all makes sense it makes sense is completely earned. It's completely earned. You know you don't feel like a complete backside of why you're doing that now. Oliver is like well. No it makes sense. He literally you know had to release on the most horrible moments of his life. You know in wash wash that will be disintegrated. Like he's you know. Head to leave his family behind Ike in walkaway from that to do this he no again just like Berry Gary. He knows he's going to die. You know so all that stuff I think makes it so that his behavior makes sense also makes sense so you know we don't get a bunch of complaining from the people that he's kind of going they they get it they understand I get it. I see why you're doing it or not going to do it alone but I get it and I really appreciate that I. I'm always happy to see thea there. Air Because you gotta remember that the is a stone cold killer and Not Not not to be fucked with at all like the it was a these pretty handy and I also love the fact that it brought the whole thing with Roy and everything going on there like they did a good They they did good like little dump of Information Info dump there to kind of get. It's up to speed on their like again. I think that's what made this episode really worked really well for me. It hitting notes and dropping things that we didn't think they need to even why Nisa wasn't there you know just kind of driving those things there that makes sense. I was like okay. That aren't you addressed. It makes sense I get it and and we can now move on from an in in and Get on with this episode of trying to figure out like letting oliver trying to track down to distrust. The Monitor not going to be honest here kind of never really trusted causing being like what what they believe in what they want is never going to be down to the level of what you want needs age. So yeah yeah never on that one. over yeah but yeah I understand I like I like you know going back. In the fact that the League would have information on this kind of stuff kind of tracking them down and again kind of you know going on the Indiana Jones almost like scavenger hunt for information that the League has gathered on that and cool do again brings ringed the care together. Leaving us with this idea of Talia in and Feo working together to get a League of heroins or heroes together and I'm jaanus probably in there as well necessarily apply. Pass things up in you know now leaves you open for whether you can never bring any of them back in one of the other shows again. We'll talk a little bit about what happens at the end of this one In in like it kind of really a lot of different things you can do right now with how you carry on after Stephen Mills. Those gone like everything on the table. Anything's possible so yeah I know I'm I'm really. I've really enjoyed how they kinda tied together. It's their this feels like a thank you to the fans and from the interpersonal piece that USA to even the big events that were kidding build in the ending Chris. I said that the ultimate universe Crossover Marina RESEDA rounded ideas Time travel was a flash episode too far for the show this issue that lived in time. Travel Jimmy leg. Oh this is a serving five years ago. This is the story now ragging steelers same story anyway this this coming because I did not know muzzle flash. I was like what the fuck and then when you come back to. You See Oliver with the rest of the team and I'm like them kids going to rewrite behind him. Son Of pige like dog Oliver get buried. Did with Nora. Oliver gets to train in workable his kids before we go means. We're definitely felicity Mona Lisa. Oh yeah of course I enough. She said goodbye but like yeah got to got to got to but like well. So and there's there's so many other things you can you can you can do like. There's this this because I've said for the first two episodes fell. These were two separate to summertime onto different thing to run on right now. It feels like we're converging in on like let's say this let's go back to Kinda just we're we're doing with the Oliver Find Dowden and figuring out what the Monitor is up to write in you know is it causing any things is is not and it's it's what okay. Thanks because again right exactly of this cosmic creatures beans and we know what it looks like. We don't know what it is exactly right. It's like all the peace between that and then what we saw with the flash right which again I think this is another thing too. That's a little bit different than we've done before with these kind of crossovers. Both both of these series are doing a really good job. And I'm not watching that woman in in in in supergirl so I don't know how how they're handling it at least with flash in an era they're very closely pulling things in and tying leading to the the the crisis and I don't know if those are the two showed need to do that because like we know crisis that Berry he and Oliver are both slated to at least what we've been told they're both later to die right even with Oliver like remember. What the monitors hunter said in all regions when he repeats back with the Monitor citizen is? I've seen you die. Among that means you can live a long fucking life. He he watches you die of a heart attack. Because you know you're eighty years old and she liked that doesn't necessarily mean that you die because a crisis saying they were Berry Berry C.'s. C.'s has only seen one thing but like that could be. Yeah you disappeared. And that's all you saw in the maybe get brought back. There's a lot of different things that can happen open here. You don't know everything I guess. Especially when you're dealing with the cosmic being right you know because beatings beings it's star wars. It's space magic anything. You can fucking happy so so but but you're right it's like they are leading us down a US down a path that the mantra can't be trusted and and and and what he's doing you know and is going to make Oliver very distrustful what he's doing and that's the path they're leading us all down as viewers and I I I like that because again couple that we were watching in the flesh it all makes sense in with while barriers except where he's going with that. All Ten has said that he needs to do his job. He's also going going but wait a minute. I'm giving my family. I WanNa make sure what I'm doing is for the right reason. That's guest is going to have this kind of always always nature but team trust blindly. But I'm GonNa Outsmart this thing that's Omnipotent like you're doing and that was the only thing that gives me the entire time was like if you're doing this you know he knows you're doing this reality right to give to give you a school the Joe how about you off right so again. How much of all of this stuff is and also then leads me down to? That's all part of the plan though right because also the whole thing. We'll we'll we'll Lila in diggle and Lila be insistent. That they can't call anybody and they have to save this young conor Hawkins Afia right like oh no. It's going to get our argument. Yeah motherfucker okay get an hour in here like like okay like why is it. So why didn't you bring like. She gave some answer. But I'm just like yeah. They don't make a lot of fucking sense though like why don't call. Why do they have to be unless unless it has to be diggle there? You and eagles saving them so that when you go and rescue connor later on he recognizes sizes diggle and Lila and that gets this whole thing like that lead him down. The Path is adopting exactly exactly so so unless until again going in knowing that Lila is working with the Monitor as well us going like this is all part of a plan. And that's that's where all this phone line the fact that all diggle couldn't go with Oliver apart par bat so he had to go with a go and see his sister. Who happened just happened to be there as well? WHO also happens to be there along with Talia and now Talia and and Thea are now going to be in a working together like even though he's like an illegal hero right exactly so even though we don't get the monitor showing up this episode and the all the pieces uses the Oliver Peaks puts together lead to the idea that maybe he can't trust them honor at the same time? I'm looking back at a going like for the episode. Where the the monitor showing up all the time? Okay Nigga. I'm watching you the one time you find digging in digging information about him he don't show up. Is it because well. This is all part of the plan. And you're you're actually not deviating from the plane you've gone and you you need to do all these different things that you had to get the door pork particles. What was the one the last episode? It was saying the Vira here to get the virus. And then this episode you get your sister gets the the rightful heir to the League of assassins and enjoying it forces would tell you like I feel like that was actually part of the whole thing redemption of of Oliver Queen Right because he's the one they give the last step virus and the guy who made get off the board the League of assassins huge fucking problem for a very long time off the board What senator we're fixing next daming darkens bit right constantly going back tomorrow? Cameo what is next guy. I'm not even trying to be a jerk. Legitimate curious is a great job of peaking at your housing right and now all of a sudden you know won. T want once Oliver in his sister and his sister and the mission is done. What happens we get a flashlight? He's taking back to star city with his team with with diggle and we'll laurel in the bunker and then all the sudden that his kids show up from the future you know who's not there while right right right and again over what Lila said. We're saying the DIG. All the no matter what happens. You know all these other casinos more than in which he saying. So yeah I this is one of those ones where it Kinda like on the surface felt like. Oh Yeah Oliver Digging it on the Monitor Turban. I'm like no. This is all part of the plane. This is all part of the plan. They were all going down down this way and he actually actually. Unwittingly did what he had what he was supposed to do. This is one of his task. He just wasn't like the mount figured out. If I don't tell them as a task ask maybe this will just do it. Right if I if I just not jim down the right path. They'll get to deal go do and then ends the right one of the things that you see that Oliver struggling with the fact that he doesn't get to spend time with his kids and what happens both his kids granite grown showed the fuck up. Now he's GonNa Fight deft strokes with his fucking kids. Well also that's awesome secre. Iv Job for a second. How do you? How do you bond Dean John? Juniors your out right oh no. You Don Giannini status sadness niches Lynch's dollar check and I'm sorry chloe didn't deserve that she deserted by their father he and deserved that but but it was nice because it kind of foreshadow because she's look into my commissioning entire time Right she wanted to go so of course you want to pay the price. Of course of course yeah. Of course. Let's just speech. Act Now is is is done but then I always say this Brothers on the show never do well brothers on the show are always like it's always a bad thing in so yeah no I wasn't. Yeah I I was not surprised. Is that he yet. No No. That just happened here in question and I got no so Does to do we. Do we get a menu. does mainly bit minute show up next week they pull them out man the the time travel thing. I really didn't see coming. I'm just I'm just saying I'm just saying like full of de Strokes if daddy shows up in your own John Lewis Kid Right Abbott. A A good job of building a mental. Because it's hard to say that episode only cliffhanger before that you'll yeah man cliff hanger then turned everything from from before everyone is going to gather. That's what made me go. Wait this is all part of the plan could again. He finished a mission. He got what he needed to get. He got he got the monitor what he needed without the moderate coming out and saying all right time for the next time for the next mission which is all right right now. I need you to do this thing with your kids or or it. Just reminding him what he is fighting for that to. This could be a great little motive device by the modern just said look. You didn't listen to me. He didn't trust me. That's fine whatever. I've got my ship in any way because you're dumb. God now listen to me. Now you're GONNA see why those children are still alive in the future because you did what I said this offers devotion to the monitor pretty good move absolutely and it's also could be. This is where they get the tattoos because again. I'm still stuck on the tattoos. I'm like I'm like Yo back in the city. You GotTa Deaf Gang about taking over. I'm just like who's telling us. Niches daughters did this way. He didn't want her in the first place in the future. This could be pretty like. Oh here good. I'm very impressed with Joe. I didn't the thing about that. You're right that would that would be. Why why why by the snitch guests that really really bad fucking away? Oh I thought I was protected from the future. I'd seen this. I'm not saying they're going to do other speaker. They may not how do they do. drave comeback Gimme the show Well Gin as a backdoor pilot to agree narrow in the canaries job. He got me going back. I'm not my attention. He got my attention. I mean I'm just saying like already got the idea of you know I'll soon as the THEA- didn't die so before even the end the I was thinking I was like wait if so she can. We worked tell you. Could we get older via in an older talion. The future by this could be good. I'm not and all this and then next. I know them kids sitting in the bunker. Look Whoa Daddy. Oliver and I'm going son of a bitch. The only appropriate action We how are we going to be with a season districts. US Army strokes going out with all this like I'm I'm I'm here for this. You know I'm I'm old down for this but yeah between like who I for one who tells us about his daughter about chloe gets name he doesn't And then who tells does John Jj turned evil. I didn't you didn't meet him saying like real fast like doc. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah bombing. Somebody's got he'll he'll probably the mask onto like does he take the mask often and you're just so much stuff I mean. I have so many questions I have. So how many questions bid I boy Bravo Aero for going out the way you're going out. This is how you decide you go out and I know brace. I'm very airbrush. Yeah I muck ally the end of his name is that thing of like this is a show that started. ooh Yeah we're not having superheroes not tied like if you told them you're GONNA do time travel multiple urge you get onto monitor in ops going to be a major part of crisis. Fuck out of here. Fuck you talking Chris would you. What is a midlife crisis? Is You get on the seaward midlife prices. This is like a stupid ask. Not What are we. What are we talking about? What are what are we doing? What are we doing so yeah I so much so much man you got anything else you WANNA say about this one just keep? He played the songs that we love. Era Keep playing the heads doggone right yeah absolutely all going right Hari all right folks Have you heard this on our latter view We are recording the mail bag On Sunday so Get your emails goes into US Mega. MTR number dot net Let us know what you guys thinking about. These shows other things. You have sending emails that we have We have a couple in their already thing to talk about also Get that in there and we will discuss on Sunday so very much for listening in until next time. We're OUTTA here peace the.

Oliver Berry Gary Talia Joe Hugging Chris USA Lila Oliver Find Dowden Katie Cassidy Davin chloe thea Katie gasser Ollery Oliver Peaks Stephen League China Viagra Stephen Mills
Explosive details emerge from Volker and Sondland transcripts

CNN's The Daily DC

23:43 min | 1 year ago

Explosive details emerge from Volker and Sondland transcripts

"Finding the right pros for home projects can be tough and spark a lot of questions. Like how do I find a pro. Who help will they do a good job? Will I get a fair price. That's where homeadvisor can help from leaky. Faucets to major remodels. homeadvisor connects you to the right pro for the job in seconds and even helps you get a fair price. Read Reviews News check. Project Cost Guides and book appointments go to Homeadvisor DOT COM or download. The free homeadvisor APP to start your next project. Hey everyone I'm David Chalian the CNN political director this is the daily DC impeachment watch since the inquiry is moving at breakneck speed with no shortage of developments. We've got a new episode for you every weeknight in a few minutes. We'll be talking with C. N. N. White House reporter Meghan Vazquez Aska's but I I'm joined by chief political analyst Gloria Borger Gloria. Welcome to the PODCAST. Thank you so we are taping this In the afternoon and and a short time ago we got the document dump that we were awaiting today which is two more transcripts from critical key. Witnesses in this investigation. The Ambassador to the European Union Gordon. SOM- Linda big trump donor and The diplomat Kurt Volker Who is sort of the Ukraine expert in this affair Let me start with Sunland. We got both of these transcripts. Remember this is now part of the process. The House Democrats releasing full transcripts of these interviews at the witnesses Came into and what seems pretty clear at the outset is Gordon. Someone has changed his story on a quid pro quo. He's certainly refreshed his recollection on quid pro quo and his changed His testimony substantially and he lays out a quid pro quo to Ukraine that he really did not acknowledge completely in the past asked and he makes it very clear that after two other people testified and he read their testimony about what he had said that he did recall actually that he said what they said he said which was basically which was and I will read this great please do I said the resumption of US Saed would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anti corruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks and that public statement he's telling this to the Ukrainians and that public statement would have included an acknowledgement of an investigation into Burris. Ma which is the oil company that Hunter Biden sat on the board of and Joe Biden and that he was carrying clearly carrying being the president's water on this even though the president had told him on the phone of there's no quid pro quo. This shore sounds like one so the president says that he he actually then affirms that the President's point of view to to tailor right that there there is absolutely no quid pro quo but he is now admitting that he told the Ukrainians there is no money. Coming in less. There's this public declaration that you're doing the investigations in his into the president's political rival that he seeks. That's right it and and and what this this testimony does and you you mentioned Kurt Volker. who was the former? US Special Representative for Ukraine negotiations. It's it's sorta it paints a real portrait here now. We're beginning to see how this all came down. which is Rudy Rudy Rudy Rudy? Giuliani was a direct correct conduit to president trump that the Ukrainians wanted to deal with because they thought it was the only way they could get their eight and Volker knew wit and Sunland knew it. Someone that only did not let me just read this. So apparently in this transcripts Sunland tells the House Committee in his testimony that Giuliani's push for Ukraine to investigate. The Biden's was potentially illegal. He was asked ask illegal. Someone responded I'm not a lawyer but I assume so. This is Donald Trump's guy this is donald trump's guy. Hi Who's the ambassador to the U.. Who's now telling these house investigators? He's not a lawyer but he assumed Rudy Giuliani was doing was illegal and then he also makes the case case that as he says says it all kept getting more insidious as the time line went on in July back in July ally was all just about corruption so you see the evolution here which is okay. The president wants you to make a statement about corruption. Fine Ukraine is corrupt dropped. We're going to clean up our act. Then as the time progresses suddenly it's not just about corruption in general but it becomes about the corruption. That Rudy Giuliani Juliani wants the Ukrainians to talk about and the Donald Trump wants them to talk about which is Joe Biden and breeze. MMA sunlen said it took him a while catch onto that that he wasn't aware that Biden. Equalled burris Ma as he put it or Burris might equalled Biden But he eventually caught onto that and and they all seem to be finding looking for a way to get the money to Ukraine and go around rudy or at least get them to go away way and you know in the testimony from Volcker I believe it was. There was talk about people in the State Department rolling. Their eyes about Rudy Giuliani and understanding That he was Furthering the problem and That's just your ah said Rudy Rudy Rudy. So let me let me just ask you imagine your president trump for a moment gloria. And you're reading and you're seeing news coverage about your Guy Guard. Gordon Sunland your a big donor. You've put him at the EU by the way Ukraine not in the EU. I know so. That's a whole other matter with Gordon. Some Zimbabwe near but do you think Donald Trump sees Gordon Sunlen as protecting him in this process. Or do you think Gordon Sunland is going to be on the outs with Donald Trump. Because of what he's reading here yes. A- absolutely on the outs at this point particularly given his addendum I would I would say so. And and it's it's very clear. Someone is a negative witness for the president's case case I do at this point. Yeah I do because because what he is what he is saying. Is that You we knew that we could not get this this money. Through unless the statement was made and we told the Ukrainians they had to do it. Now Volker at some point said just forget about it. You Know Volker at some point said to the Ukrainians he said it died. He said we I had the sense. That rudy was not going to be convinced. Just that it meant anything and therefore convey a positive message to the president if it didn't say Burris Ma and twenty sixteen so he just told them drop Pitt. Wait till you have your own prosecutor general in place. Let's work on substantive issues. Let's just do that. Let's just drop it so they dropped it. And can you refresh our listeners. There's memory why if Ukraine not in the U. Gordon Sunlen portfolio 'cause he's a friend of the president's perhaps and It's interesting. There are a lot of people I've talked to involved in this in my reporting who effectively said that sunland would be they thought would be a good messenger for the President President that he was very ambitious that he perhaps had Ideas that he could be the next secretary of State And that he was an ambitious person in who was willing to carry the president's the president's water his people say that wasn't it it was just that he was trying to get the aid and he was going to do whatever he could to get it to Ukraine. Now you have mentioned how central Rudy Giuliani is to all of this is rudy. Giuliani going to be testifying before a House Committee at some point in this process. Well they haven't asked him as we know and I think there's a sense from a couple of people I've spoken with that. They don't want it to turn into any kind of a circus which tends to follow Rudy Rudy. Giuliani Wherever he goes and that at this point The Southern District of New York is looking into Rudy Giuliani. And you don't WanNa have a conflict between a Congressional Final Committee and Legal Investigation So like the House Intelligence Committee and Robert Mueller. So I think at some point I bet they would but they They probably he will. He will claim as he has stated in the past he might claim privilege because of his direct conversations with with the president. Even though he's not a government employee. Someone is asked if sort of concerns about Giuliani where they raised within the I mean this is the question he was causing being serious issues in the. US relationship with Ukraine. Did you raise those concerns. Listen says Salman. The State Department was fully aware of the issues news and there was very little they could do about it if the president decided he wanted his lawyer involved question and does that include Secretary Pump Heo and and his counselor role rich breakfast. Answer my speculation is yes. They hit a brick wall when it came to getting rid of Mr Giuliani. That's right now I. I don't think Secretary Pompeo is publicly. Described that way at all that he hit some sort doc. Wallet was trying to get rid of Rudy. Giuliani secretary. POMPEO has been the brick wall on this on this story He has he has answered questions and accurately on. It seems to me purposefully purposefully about whether he was on the phone call in the first place and and whether the ambassador had come to him for help or his employees his number two. Would you come to him for help about the ambassador WHO's GonNa kicked out of Ukraine. I think everybody assumed from reading the testimony that Rudy Giuliani was the president then sky and there was no way to you know to to fromm outside and say this is not your domain because the president put him there and if the president puts them there you you have to deal with them. The only other alternative is to go to trump and to say to the president. Mr President Rudy. Giuliani is really messing up our foreign earn policy and nobody was willing to do that. What's also interesting to me? Is Vice President pence his role in all of this. The the question is in the updated data testimony that someone filed He said that he had discussed. The linkage of breeze MMA Biden et Cetera with Mister your Vermaak. Who is an adviser to Zilenski on the sidelines of September? One meeting between Vice President Mike Pence and Lansky in Warsaw. Yeah remember that was supposed to be meeting with President Trump It was pence that actually went right instead. And we're now going to hear from an aide to Mike Pence in this process before too long up on the hill And so I agree that Mike Pence is going to get more and more central to this process. These are the latest headlines. Of course the question Shenice will. What is the political impact of all of these headlines? Coming out of this testimony Gloria and I are going to be joined by Meghan Vasquez in just a moment right after this quick break. Remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash. CNN on Saturday the November ninth. Jon Moxley Frizz Keti Omega Kobe versus Chris Jericho for the e W world championship wrestling presents. Full gear by our the our live. Welcome back to the daily. DC impeachment. Watch David challenged. Gloria Borger is still with me and we're pleased to welcome. CNN White House reporter Meghan Vasquez. Thank you so much for joining us on the PODCAST. Thanks for having me so Meghan I want you to hear what Donald Trump ally now allied so odd to say that Rand Paul had to say say last night at a rally in Ram Pulse Home State of Kentucky on the eve of the gubernatorial election there today. He took up the president's cause of trying trying to reveal the whistle blower. We also now know the name of the whistle blower the whistle blower needs to come before poor congress as a material witness because he worked for Joe Biden at the same time. One Hundred Biden was getting money from corrupt oligarchs. I say tonight to the media do your job and print and I say say this to my fellow colleagues in Congress to every Republican in Washington step up and Subpoena Hunter Biden and subpoena the whistle blower. So Meghan there you have it Rampaul taking up the cause here on behalf of Donald Trump standing there at the rally with him is is everything. You're learning from what this White House strategy is. Does it hinge on them exposing the whistle blowers name. Why is this issue number one for Donald Trump right now right so I think if there's anything we've learned about? Donald trump and his presidential reelection strategy is that he's not going into apologize he's one to double down And if you look at the way that this campaign has tried to approach the impeachment inquiry even though there have been Efforts among some administration officials to let's say Towards the beginning of this inquiry battle to release that transcript The campaign is taking an approach. the basically says come out and fight me and so I have to say it's quite striking to have. Have someone like rand. Paul who is often butting heads with Donald Trump on foreign policy backing him on this So much of this rally From what I could tell was about having not only donald trump get reelected right but also bolstering these Kentucky Kentucky candidate for governor Income for Governor Evan and so I wonder how many more times we're going to see this kind of theme Be replicated at these kinds of rallies especially like going back to when Ted Cruz held a rally in Texas with the president was anything I would argue. We're probably going to see a lot of Gloria I mean there's a brand new Mama. Th Poll poll out today. Donald Trump's approval rating is at forty three percent. It has been It is where it has been this entire time here. Is the President United States under the threat threat of impeachment. He is facing an immense amount of pressure that he hasn't faced yet post Miller and yet it doesn't move you've his approval. Rating is good standing the New York Times and just put out a polls these in the six battleground states that he won in two thousand sixteen where he looks very very much in the hunt to win them again. In twenty twenty if he doesn't see any political repercussion. Why should he ever apologize? Adviser take a different approach well and and that is exactly his strategy. which is I did it? So what so what this was. There's nothing wrong with this. As he keeps saying it was a perfect for call. Let me tell you again. I'll do it right right. I'll say fine. Yeah no quid. Pro Quo no collusion. which hunt you know whatever you want to say? And that's the Strategy Reggie. Because he knows he can get away with it and he does he. He does get away with it with his supporters. who like him for other reasons? And I'd like him precisely because he's taking on the establishment and precisely because he doesn't play by the rules and he's not looking to get those other voters and the big question. All of us here have is. Does he need those independents. Because that's where he's lost altitude with independent voters And he's lost some altitude with white undereducated voters well according to some polls that will you know will that loss really hurt him in the Electro Zero College not the popular vote. Let's not even talk about. Let's talk about the way we elect presidents and he knows how we elect presidents so he hasn't broadened his base because he feels like he doesn't have have to. We don't know whether that's right. Calculation and Meghan. He won independence by four points. In the two thousand sixteen election it was actually part of his is winning coalition they as glorious point. They fled him in his party in two thousand eighteen. It's what delivered the majority in many ways To the Democrats in the House of Representatives additives. Have you gotten any sense that they're trying to make some appeal to them in any way I want. I'm wanting to hear what the president said last night about this impeachment the process at this rally. And you tell me if you hear anything in here that may appeal the independence. There's been no place in the country that's gone down like the area that Nancy Pelosi represents and she's wasting all over time and you know what it's backfiring you said but the media and the Democrats have launched and even more brazen assault on our nation with the deranged hyper partisan impeachment with so the one thing I hear there is he. He wants to make this a partisan affair He thinks that helps him. is is the key is the calculation that that independence who tend to not really like partisan affairs somehow tune this out then. Well it's unclear to me exactly how the how the president is trying to appeal to independent voters here. I will say though that this election today on Tuesday is going to be a test of both. Were this rhetoric is working particularly because Governor Bevin is having such a tough fight In the gubernatorial election in Kentucky he was one by A Lance Hi for Donald trump points. Yeah in two thousand sixteen I like I said I'm not sure if it's going to work with independent voters were. We're going to see how it works in places like Kentucky Today Yeah. I am eager to see the returns tonight because I think part of this impeachment landscape. Gloria is in trump country in places like Mississippi Kentucky. Can he still go in at the end even under the threat of impeachment and drive his voters out. Well first of all He is likely likely to get impeached by the house. Vote the articles of impeachment but unlikely to get impeached by the Senate so he can claim victory. He can say I won. They tried to get rid of me. They didn't get rid of me now. You have to reelect me because they tried to do it the bad way now. You have to make sure that I come back. He can use this as a tool for himself. Which is why Nancy Pelosi? He was so unsure about whether you even ought to do impeachment at all until until this until this phone call and I think the Democrats have to do a good job of explaining why this is not just about a one phone call but it's about a way of doing business and and the way the government operates which they would claim is corrupt upped. That is going to be the test for the Democrats when these hearings go public in these next couple of weeks Gloria what are you looking. Forward to in the days ahead This week before we get to those open hearings. What what other testimony are you waiting for? Is there any next development in this story. You're most keen to. I think we want to see. See the testimony from Fiona Hill. She was part of the national security apparatus inside the White House. She is the person who worked for John. Bolton and who was a witness to John Bolton's explosion when he said of Gordon Sunland meeting with Ukrainians inside the basement baseman of the White House. I don't want to be a party to their drug deal or something to that effect so I do WanNa see her testimony I'm looking forward to also discovering whether in fact we will hear from Bolton ever even privately or publicly because he's the key to this story he's the big key to this story he could be John Dean or he could not be John Dean John. Dean testified voluntarily so always different that way but he does hold the keys to the kingdom here and he is somebody who left the White House on bad terms. He is somebody who is devoutly the Anti Putin and was very upset with Ukraine aid. Not going through and I am wondering whether that had anything to do with his leaving since if you look at when he left. I wondered the same temper- tenth then was released. What the next day throughout this whole thing? I have wondered very much about his departure date. We will wait and see. I will say back to your earlier point whether he plays the role of John Dean or not. It is still hard to see on. Today's facts who the twenty Republican senators would be sort of come over and remove the president from officer. John Dean was a turning point that led eventually to Nixon's resignation. I it's hard to imagine even John Bolton if that's the role he's playing that that's the never tastes and there were taking Gloria Meghan. Thank you so much for joining me on the daily. DC impeachment watching. Thanks to all of you our listeners. We've got got a new episode every weeknight so please make sure to subscribe on Apple. PODCASTS stitcher Google podcasts. spotify whatever your favorite podcast APP is and while you're there please leave it's a rating or a comment. It really helps people find the show. We'll see you tomorrow. Are you interested in learning how great companies grow download the Mar- tech podcast. Amar Tech. podcast tells the stories of real world marketers who use technology to generate growth and achieve business and career success from advertising to software as a service to data getting brand's authentically integrated the content performs better than TV advertising typical life span of an article about twenty four to thirty six hours for reaching the right person with the right message and a clear. Call an action that it's just a matter of timing ready to learn the secrets of technology driven marketing download the Mar- tech trek podcast. Just Search Mark M. A. R. T. E. C. H.. Wherever you download your podcasts? Are you interested in learning how enterprise gail companies drive organic traffic to increase their online visibility. The download the voices of search podcast from the heart of Silicon Valley here search metrics. INC's CEO Jordan Kuni delivers actionable insights into how to use data data to navigate the ever changing landscape of Google Apple Amazon. The voices of search podcast arm search engine

president Rudy Rudy Rudy Rudy Donald Trump Rudy Giuliani Gloria Borger Gloria Ukraine Hunter Biden Gloria Meghan Gordon Sunland Ukraine Kurt Volker President President Sunland Gordon John Dean CNN David Chalian Vice President State Department US
The President angles for a dismissal

CNN's The Daily DC

20:09 min | 1 year ago

The President angles for a dismissal

"Hey everyone I'm David Chalian the CNN political director this is the daily DC impeachment impeachment. Watch we've taken the podcast on the road today where recording in the freezing cold of Des Moines Iowa though not terribly cold in this hotel room We're we're preparing for tomorrow's IT Democrat debate at Drake University. I know there has been unseasonably warm weather on the East Coast. That is not the case. Here Jeff Zeleny. Yesterday I think so your instagram. You took took off. It was sixty something degrees yesterday and you ended in Des Moines Twenty six twenty six degrees. Hey January in Iowa. I don't think we should have expected anything else. But apologies for the ECHO. Who you might here? We are in our Producers Hotel Room and we appreciate that he has put his dirty laundry aside anyway. Today I'm joined by the very special guest. You just heard from that it is my colleague. Jeff Zeleny he is C. N. N.'s senior Washington correspondent Jeff. Thanks for being here. David great to be here. So we're going to do things in the show. We're going to handle impeachment as we do every day but I also am GonNa WanNa talk to you in a little bit about the big debate tomorrow and where we are in the two thousand twenty race Specifically here in Iowa but You Know Nancy. Pelosi has actually now going to be moving forward and sending the articles of impeachment over to the Senate. She's meeting with House Democratic Caucus tomorrow morning and then we'll proceed lead to have a vote on who the house managers are and send those articles over kicking off the formal Senate trial experience You know it is clear that had She thinks she's reframed the debate in advance of the trial and it sounds Perhaps a little poll tested about how much an emphasis she. She is putting on the notion of the need for quote fair trial. She says it time and again here was Pelosi with George Stephanopoulos yesterday on. ABC's this week it's about a fair trial. They take an oath to take have a fair trial and we think that would be with witnesses and documentation so that dynamic has now now the ball is in their court to do that or pay a price for Jeff. Now we're learning that president trump may not want to trial at all in. This is so interesting David because president trump quite quite literally has been all over the map on this and we are just learning this afternoon from our colleagues on the hill and indeed at the White House that that the president's team are now talking to Mitch McConnell and other other Senate Republicans about including something in the proceedings were after the opening arguments. There'd be essentially a motion to dismiss a motion to a dismissed the entire proceeding unclear if that will go forward. I'm skeptical and this is why Mitch McConnell has a couple of her masters she serving having one of course is trying to please president trump and keep this as you know as tight as possible but he's also concerned more than ever about holding his majority so just being a fair trial that works both ways so one of the Republicans Imperatives of a fair trial is actually having a semblance of a full trial not trying to shortcut this trying to short circuit it and some of the Republicans were up this November as well maybe concerned about the idea of just dismissing smissing. This out of hand so we have to think in every calculation what would Susan Collins think about this. I mean not what would Jesus do. What would Susan Collins of this? What would Cory Cory Gardner thing of this here in Iowa? Joni Earth think this so there is an ocean of a fair trial on both sides. That is sort of a talking point here but the reality President I mean I think that's why Pelosi said in that that bite or do they pay a price she sees. There is some political pressure that she's trying to bring to bear she absolutely public. Sentiment is on the notion of witnesses. This is should be part of this experience. We think of a trial. We watched them on television. We see law and order and other MELODRAMAS. Over the years I loved L. A. Law but that's so dating ourselves we think witnesses but it's not going to be exactly like that. My question is once president trump actually sees this unfolding is going to want more of the flare. Is he going to want his lawyers to be presenting something. We don't know this but I would be surprised if he gets his wish to dismiss this before it begins i. I agree totally with what you're saying. that an immediate dismissal seems politically untenable for for a lot of these potentially vulnerable Republicans and by the way even for those that have expressed some concern like Mitt Romney or Lamar Alexander that are either retiring or in safe states who just have a different take on trump overall. All the maybe Everyone in the conference on the Senate side but I take that point. What is not clear to me is if this if we're going to get to SOC- witnesses I mean I I I do think so? Much of that is going to depend on how those first days of the trial land with the American people and and if it looks I mean feel free to disagree but I think if it looks like this is Washington doing its thing. Maybe there's not going to be an outcry for witnesses and they will be able to move through this pretty quickly. I'm not sure there's an outcry for much of anything. I think one thing that Speaker Pelosi has lost in. This is a sense of urgency. There's no question that she's he's gained a few things I mean. Obviously John Bolton now has agreed to testify under subpoena. You know there've been e mails released other matters but there is not a sense of urgency at the moment. Perhaps that will return. There's a lot of clamoring here. I mean there was so much drama and leading up to that house. Vote it really in the final days before the holidays last month now. It seems like it's kind of dissipated and everyone believes that they know the outcome and that is probably true. We probably know that this president almost certainly will not be convicted given the makeup of the Senate. But we don't know what is going to happen between now and then and I'd be very surprised if it follows any script that were even thinking of right now hell is usually the case. We're about to also see a lot of ceremony right. I mean when I even before the actual trial begins. The appointment of the managers majors the walking across the Rotunda from the House side to the Senate side the chief justice of the United States. There will be a lot of pageantry. That could come as early as this this week. That may add to the import of the moment. I think so and I think it will come as early as Wednesday or Thursday most likely at least given the schedule as we know right right now I was told by a top senior aid to a Democratic senator who happens to be running for president. Chuck Schumer had conference last night with all of the Democratic senators there's and he was basically advising them on their travel plans and scheduled for the week and he said get back to Washington by Wednesday morning because you could be sworn in then so could happen Wednesday or Thursday. Okay but you're absolutely right about the drama of walking across from the House to the Senate. I spent several days last week up. On Capitol Hill my old stomping grounds I covered congress for a long time and making that walk from the House floor to the Senate floor. It's about the length of a couple of football fields are so it's pretty long. You know you go through statuary hall. You go through the Rotunda Ronda but it will be so dramatic to see these articles sort of brought over really not since the inauguration or something like that is there so much a formality. You so at least that will I think remind people of what is going on. Jeff we did get a little bit of insight into how folks here in Iowa at least East which is a good symbol of the heartland How they are responding to the impeachment in our latest CNN des Moines Register Iowa poll poll forty eight percent of registered voters? Here in Iowa say the president as you said we may know the conclusion of this should not be removed from office forty percent say he should. It'd be convicted and removed from office. Clearly that's to the president's favor but not overly dramatically so it's it's a pretty closely divided universe but what I found sounds fascinating in the poll. Jeff was independent. Voters a slim majority fifty one percent say he should not be removed from office. Thirty four percent. Say He should that to me. is where Donald Trump. If you're Mitch McConnell. You're feeling pretty good about where you are heading into the trial. I think that's right and I was actually a perfect place to have this a sample of voters because it has been a swing state in recent years. It's not at the moment to president. Trump carried it by nine point. Four percentage points points. I believe in two thousand sixteen but look there is a sense of fatigue out there. I think the number I was looking at was among those independence as you were saying. That is a sense that I'm not sure that House Democrats haven't made their case on this. It's the fact of the pushback was so robust and aggressive that people went to their respective corners here so I mean being the pushback from president trump a hoax which was very robust. I think there's an exhaustion factor. So that I guess is the central question as this goes to the Senate Senate what new information if any will come out but we will hear these opening arguments and we will hear from the president's and defense team and that is something else that is also still being up for discussion. The president still want some of those house friends of his Jim Jordan others on the Senate floor. We'll see if that happens. Yeah unclear if that will it will happen. Jeff we're GONNA pause right there in this conversation. I want to delve into tomorrow's debate. And the twenty twenty state of play but first a quick break. Let's face it. Most New Year's resolutions are hard to keep get get more exercise. Save more money well. Here's a resolution that's easy to keep don't waste time going to the post office US STAMPS DOT COM instead stems dot com brings is all the services of the post office to you plus stamps dot com gives you everything you can't get at the post office big discounts on postage like five cents off every first class stamp up and up to forty percents off priority mail print official. US postage from your computer for any letter package or class of male anywhere. You want to send once your mail. L. is ready. Just hand it to your mail carrier or drop it in the mailbox. It's that simple. No wonder over seven hundred thousand. Small businesses already used dams dot com. So give have yourself a resolution you can actually keep this year save time and money with stamps dot com. You can get a special offer that includes a four week. Trial Plus Free Postage and a digital digital scale with no long term commitments and no risk. THAT'S STAMPS DOT COM. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in code. CNN Stamps M.'s. Dot Com Promo Code. CNN STAMPS DOT com. Never go to the post office again. Hi Everyone I'm poppy harlow were out with the new boss files episode Fashion Designer Eileen Fisher. She sees her brand as a platform and her please encouraging her to stand up on social social issues including climate chain. She's a leading voice on environmental sustainability and the fashion industry. Also her take on profit sharing she owned sixty eighty percent of her company and her employees own the rest plus her advice for all of us as parents out there what she wishes she done differently as a mother. And how I lean Fisher uses meditation the guide her work and her life here at all. I'm boss by subscribe today. Ah Welcome back to the daily. DC impeachment. Watch I'm David Chalian. Talking with my the steam colleague. Jeff Zeleny C. N. N.'s senior Washington correspondent Jeff. It is getting a little nasty out there on the campaign trail L. Bernie Sanders specifically I think has spent the last week or so really changing into a different gear in terms of engaging his opponents namely Joe Biden certainly on his Vote in the Iraq war that very different worldviews that they have about intervention In the world with the US military obviously in light of the Iran News Hitting them on trade and clearly indicating he wants to fight tomorrow night with Joe Biden but then we saw this political story over the weekend that His campaign has a script out there with volunteers knocking on doors and basically painting painting Elizabeth Warren as an elitist. He says he had nothing to do with that. And then today our colleague. MJ Lee reported that in this sort of famous is non aggression pact meeting between warned Sanders in December of two thousand eighteen that apparently according to MJ's reporting Sanders told Warren in that meeting. He doesn't think a woman can win so there seems to be a whole new level of engagement that Sanders is taking on here as we head into the debate. Eight Marnie no doubt and even if we didn't have this sort of countdown clock running to a three weeks from tonight or the Iowa caucus you can feel it in the air you can feel Just by reading what the candidates are saying by listening to them that things are getting much more aggressive because time is running out and one thing I detect from Bernie Sanders is. He is rising in the polls at least here in Iowa and our register. CNN poll as well as other polls so Bernie centers now is playing to win. And he's planning to do something not just to promote his 'cause or movement it's a much different Bernie Sanders than we have seen. Throughout the course of the year through many debates. He was standing back in kind of being playful with Joe Biden in other people perfectly happy to sort of a retreat from the conversation. Not as you said making his case for Medicare for all the door but yeah for sure but not Eager to engage in in the mix he is signaling. He's doing everything but saying okay. This is what I want to talk about at the debate on Tuesday nights so look I think it's going to be fascinating to watch really Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden delegate. Something that's not been litigated inside this Democratic Party for quite some time and that's a conversation about war that's a conversation in about the place of America in the world. I mean you a well remember David. We spent so much time in this state and others during the two thousand eight campaign even though four campaign so this is essentially the fourth Democratic primary in a row where you know this is still the specter of the Iraq. War is still very much in the center of it and Joe Biden has already renounced long ago. His vote for the Iraq war but he will probably have to do so again and explain his worldview and any long record comes with some positives and negatives in his foreign policy record certainly is filled with both in the eyes of many so that is going to be a fascinating dynamic. But I think you're also right boy this Warren Sanders. There's few I kind of wonder if it's hotter now than actually will be on stage if added to be every time they they when they are up there together. They tend to retreat from really wanting to engage each other ex. Exactly except Elizabeth. Warren is in a position where she needs to make a move and I think that that is certainly behind. In some of the the great reporting that are Jay Lee had in terms of of the meeting with Bernie Sanders and also in Warren's response to the Sanders Campaign unscripted because she clearly saw opportunity there she sees it when she said you know. I'm disappointed in Bernie Sanders. He was talking trash about me and he should turn this campaign pain around to a different direction and she brought up the Specter Jeff of the lingering bitterness that exists among many Democrats in the Party about the aftermath of the Clintons Sanders primary where a lot of Democrats think the Wayne. It's hinders handled. That was a real problem. For Hillary Clinton come November one of the reasons why she lost the Donald Trump. She all but said stop just a shy a tick away from saying because of how Bernie Sanders Treated Hillary Clinton that's what one of the reasons. Donald trump trump was elected. That was the subtext of exactly what she was saying. And it's funny when you talk to Democrats. They do harbor a lot of them do harbor that sort of suspicion of Bernie any senators. Is He really one of us. Is He really a true Democrat. Or is he in for himself and he is constantly said he'll campaign for the nominee but that is exactly clue what she was trying to remind folks that any Hillary Clinton voter out there and there were millions. I think that's exactly what she was doing. So she may be more aggressive passive on the debate stage Tuesday evening and Senator Sanders. We'll see I wanNA geek out a little bit more on our Iowa des Moines Register poll CNN registered poll here in Iowa that We did on the Democratic nomination race. I I want to put this question to you because I'm fascinated by this year. I've covered many Iowa caucuses. We know Oh that enthusiasm is very important because of the way the caucus system works. You gotTA show up on a cold night on Monday in January. Show up to your local meeting and stay there and commit to your candidate so enthusiasm for that candidate matters and we also know that your dedication to do that to go and caucus matters and so I look at the numbers present I see Bernie Sanders. Supporters are by far more extremely enthusiastic about their choice than other candidates supporters for them and he has a greater share of the electorate. The foreign ten that say they're locked in Sanders has a greater share. Those anyone else. Those are clearly good things for him. The flip side of that and I want you to settle this debate for me. Is that the sixty percent who may change their mind who say they might consider another candidate or have made up their mind yet. There those people are not likely to go to Bernie Sanders at all. They're not they're so easy that he is has some sort of a ceiling here in Iowa. Despite despite all that great enthusiasm and commitment he certainly has a ceiling among committed democratic establishment a caucus-goers. No doubt now he could certainly be finding being a ton of new people who have not participated and I. I suspect that He's he is doing now. That's what they're trying to do. But among the rank and file regular you know a party faithful a must of them believe that he would not be good for the party. Most of them believed that the socialism label. If it's accurate or not most would say it's probably not is going to kill him in November number so I think that He is sort of locked in a little bit in the sense that he has not as much growth potential unless he finds drags New People to the polls. And it's part of the. There's going to be this record turnout so maybe that will be in some part due to bringing a lot of new people into the process they could be and I think one of the other obvious the reasons the Democrats are so engaged is because of the sitting president. I mean he is the you know the energizer bunny a few Democrats but one thing about Iowa David you know this is well as anyone. In all the time that we've spent here I started my journals to register covering the Iowa caucuses and is that enthusiasm but a right around this point in time it comes time to pick president. I will never forget that that is what voter told me. In two thousand and four when he switched from Howard Dean John Kerry Howard Dean had stayed in his house he was a doctor and aims. Zuma's Bob Digital. He's no longer with us. But Howard Dean in his house several times times he suddenly decided I'm going to vote for John. Kerry said Bob. How could the speech like it comes time to pick a president and he thought John Kerry's presidential so we don't know who's playing those roles this year but when it comes time to pick a president which it is now it could benefit eight Joe Biden or You know maybe a Buddha judge or in some view a sanders. But I think that's why the debate is so important. It's the single most important thing to happen between now and February third no doubt about it and I can't wait to you. Spend the next three weeks covering view and watch it unfold. Jeff thank you so much for joining me today on the daily. DC impeachment. Watch greatly appreciate your insights. We'd also like to thank our listeners. Thanks for tuning in remember. We've got a new episode every weeknight so please make sure to subscribe to Apple podcasts. Stitcher Google podcasts. spotify or your favorite podcast cast APP. And while you're there leave us a rating or comment it helps people find the show. We'll see mark.

Iowa president L. Bernie Sanders Senate Jeff Donald Trump CNN David Chalian Joe Biden Speaker Pelosi Des Moines Iowa United States Mitch McConnell House Democratic Caucus Jeff Zeleny C. N. N. Jeff Zeleny Hillary Clinton Iraq Elizabeth Warren
Racing Postcast: Glorious Goodwood 2019 Day Three Betting Preview

Racing Post

23:21 min | 1 year ago

Racing Postcast: Glorious Goodwood 2019 Day Three Betting Preview

"Now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the Dominion Energy Reliability Investment our new investment product offers competitive competitive returns no maintenance fees and flexible online access to your money make the reliable investment in reliable energy the Dominion Energy Reliability Liability Investment to find out more go online to reliability investment dot com. That's reliability investment dot com. What's my whole handicap the fuck that Yo paquin everyone loves a Newbie. That's why Poti Games are giving new customers. Sixty free spins wins on daily Jackpot games new customers. Only one per customer sees apply h plus become they're welcoming on to the Rights Day eight three Glorious Goodwood post gas we look to versus cars and fantastic very tricky. Rice Emma Sun Bridge Millington Anna. I'm joined to try and solve the seven rights puzzled by James Hill and Tom Conan's from the racing post tipping desk and also from Power James Ron. Who's got all the latest prices as is what is tips and hopefully a special offer and some extra places along the way will start with one fifty. It's the union bet handicap over a mile and to live loyd on Roy T._v.. Eleven declared Spencer the prices for US James Run so some barriers are seventy two favorites followed by walk in the signed by two Abdallah five two one five fifteen six to one thirteen to nine one body Ho James Hill you go I if you've got a good handle on this race was it's pretty tough for stove with very competitive. You could pick about five or six here. I think <hes> for a bit of value I'm going to go for our mania. <hes> the Michael Stoute trained coats <hes> he's obviously well regarded and he started out first on the season in the Dante so highly tried then since then he's run twice ascot over a mile and a half run well both times but looked on each occasion dropped back in trip with sue which which he gets here and he's a good value on us about twice the price of injury who he finished ahead of Royal Ascot so I'm going to take a chance on him. Albania Tom just before we talk about this particular racing. Get your fancies. He's this card week. I think allow it was horrible whether on Tuesday I think we can be fairly confident. We're going to be looking at good ground definitely too much rain in the forecast all snow while he is very tricky. We know roughly what we're doing as far as ground yeah definitely as much rain forecast for today or tomorrow when the rice is actually having so <hes> yeah. It's going to be picking up all the time and hopefully that will be in the favor of dean. John Gosden charge only carries eyestone four pounds. Obviously Dettori cont ride that way so so it's very interesting. Harry Bentley goes on board. That's eight four so he's obviously been booked in wants to ride this horse which is understandable given. His is a real improve over this multi to funnel trick. You smashed a ninety eight rated running a novus event on his first start. The season somehow dangled in a wrecker handicapper. Don't know how he found so much trouble own. It was the best horse race but you still got beat by Samir. He's won his last two so it's still a decent piece of form one really well. Donnie Las penelas ultimate star aw and was four from the London Gold Cup last. I'm out. There's lots of runners from the London. Gold Cup in this race is a pretty good handicap and I think Dana Win. If your regulations the the post cost you know that the London go cup rookie choices a fantastic point into the future so maybe I fifteen will start that going this furnishes running James Ron Roland. Who Do you like here. You go inside London. Go Up for a while but it's going to be Jerry. I'm very willing to forgive last on John. Why the whole hasn't had kind of a strange ancient pride in the fact that he was you know went so why the Olay as a loan or site there on anytime into strike on a furlong from the finish looked like he was going to add ended up but I'm happy that he's dropping back down and ship today. He's a really lovely and sweet traveler think it'd be very hard to be here. I think I'm going to go perform. Accuse donate <unk>. Hadman Azzam's be bank formerly while I think fires bit to to find within. I think it wouldn't be shocked if he went off. The traffic. Buddy is now attempts to okay. I don't think that will for the first time today that the boys disagreeing race. Let's see what they think of the two twenty five the CATTA Richmond stakes group two for the two year olds over six furlongs uh-huh James. What's the latest betting on this trash. Is Our favorite money impact special air so that you get your money back if threat wins the rice and so gives you a good opportunity to back something else and tragedies are nine to four favorites guilds minutes seventy two golden horde is five to one by King Neptune at eight hundred Maxi boy eight hundred ten to one and that cash by impaneled ten-year-old available at party dot com all the racing post APP. Let's have a thing now who's going to win this one. thome threat was second in the cove. You think you'll make not my one better yeah. I think I think threats the obvious choice obviously is quite short in the market but plenty went wrong for him in the Coventry originally joined in the middle and he tries truck across the first few strikes to the group on the far side but then you switch back end up being held up what was lost to the group how to weave for students finish second to a good horse in Arizona. He holds goes one on that four hundred concert them unbeaten almonds improve every start. This is a good thing really. Do you think that joins Ron I do. I think it'd be very hard to be here. When I first got looks the bites take him on the Royal Commando <unk>. Those type of ours needs to improve nearly twenty pounds slightly looking the average. Tom Said those things didn't go fully riseborough. Distinctive you really really hard to be ninety four. I think you'd want charter not and Jimmy Hill Ninety four threat. Doesn't I'm afraid I'm going. GonNa have to oppose a favorite. He was undoubtedly the horses. Take out of the Coventry. I just wonder how good a race that was actually though I mean <hes> fourteen runs amongst the field since three three victories I mean that's okay <hes> nothing more than that symbolizes the one for me run twice run very well both times <hes> made an eye-catching debut when he slammed slammed. Aroha souls that went on to finish third in the Albany stakes and I thought he was the best horse in the race when he was just behind the places in the Windsor Castle didn't really get a good draw that day and was kind of caught in no-man's land and looking at his pedigree. I think the see six films we'll see to write. Let's move onto the three categories stakes a traditional trump's nature route three over a mile and a half off and what's the latest on this james it Constantinople as our fights to favored by Spanish moon at seventy two John Mood five one down horse ago six six to one zero eight to one technician two nine two one five and sticking me James First of all. Do you think the ledger winner is running in this race not sure the signature winners. Nelson UNISOM <unk> Japan in Orlando that Rice would. I think it's a really competitive. He's on cutting gone for one bit of advice and one that I really like actually in this can take Francois identify nights in that right. I can TAP Brown. Thanks very much brace and I just think he's going to be missed it at a bit. The last three runs is he's kind of Olympics Games in a couple of them tonight in track really rather that's EPSOM. Winning fast-finishing didn't look like he got home in the southbound behind on Van Dyke at link Alaska is paste tamarind event then was really clicking on late home got into conflict Ijima box chairman big muller who are on the jockey dramas than just letting them come home his time but he was already finished strongly about. I think the staff back appear to mouth for reading <unk> closer on the daunting think does any superstars in this race couple of penalties in there you know the to the head of the market. I just think either cracking each way better twenty two one Cap Francais for James James Run who for James Hill I think it's between the three penalize runners and preference would be for the ballydoyle Horse Constantinople <hes> he was sir impressive winner at the earlier in the season and well fences at Royal Ascot for the King George Handicapped. I thought he should have won that. Really they went forty now. Just just forty hit the front too soon got caught by stablemate near the near the post. I think he's a bit better than that will have learned plenty from it and yet interestingly. Dingley horses who've had handicap form of have a good record in this race so he's the one for me your Constantinople and Tom who do you fancy well many between between Constantinople and William Haggas del Hor school dentist. That's how you pronounce this tough nine but closed on tonight who who was already like as Jim said. I just thought I should've wanted Roy Oscar. I thought how he lost on him for quite a decent wage and I'll just can't bring myself going again because I feel like you should have won that. Bryson talk to come up with theories just went too soon. It's an eye. The form is not very good anyway. Even if you went to soon I'd still expect him to be South Pacific traffic that won that race 'cause I mean south. Pacific is being beaten comfortably sense and I'll just as a bigger improvement hair which is William Haggas his horoscope founder impressive age. He's a solemn Nathaniel and he's hinted that he's going to improve this step trip on his two previous starts whereas one Huggesen Topa obsolete flying when when the team up and I think he has improved to win on writings obviously but he will step up for this this increased distance and wouldn't send a horse in straight threaten to group two from one thousand nine hundred cap. He didn't think he was good enough. Say Roadways said on the postcard the other way he said Haggas doesn't cool his geese swans exactly uh-huh exactly that okay so three more tips at twenty two one Cap Francais <hes> James who is consensus nopal and Tom for Dow Horse <unk> Horrid School. It's a weird want prints strange name big rice on Thursday takes place at three thirty. Five is the CATTA Nassau stakes and we've got the jewel mckinney's winner her most red head of the market James. Yes indeed she's are seven to four favorites balloting Chelsea but the frankie ridden midday treat one knock stab six to one rider seventy one channel seven to one and ten to one drawn to the jolly. Hey James Hill or very much difficult to look beyond her. I'm a big fan of Hermosa. I sa- Gio Guineas winner. I just thought she met a horse of a superior. Turn of foot at Royal Ascot last time round rice fine step up in trip. I see absolutely no reason wight went to improve the extra two furlongs and this is actually a reservoir ballydoyle d really well at Lewis good with four times including twice in the last three years Cape Ann simple. You're going to follow suit on yeah. Mostly just wins. I think as Jimmy said Ibran one this winter and minding both didn't have have to be a best to win. It and I don't think he will have to be best to win this. She's four pound plus clear on ratings of any of our rivals. I think the truck will suit and I think just the best horse in the race John John isn't that simple for you as well or you're going to take Ron. Keep it very simple should be very hard to be going back to even the numeric far just think to step trip actually sued the way she writes got a good lead on her. I think the pay raise sooner dance. The grains I think should be very hard to be okay three tricky racist to come next. I hear at Paddy power with the home of the money back special with some incredible offers every single week. Check out the website or APP today. Terms and conditions apply eighteen plus begun talk okay. The four ten at Goodwood is the Telegraph nursery handicap which classic when a one this in the last ten years Anderson Edison Brooke Brooke well-planned Jane's rhyme well in my friend right and there are seventeen minutes. This looks an absolute bruton. Tom Kalenjin have the first go cracking it well. It's a nursery and number. One row for nursery is about the top way and fly that the best horse in the race and taught ways in any handicap yeah but in nurseries whites often as two year olds they improve time on a horse. It's taught wait. It's normally showing the best level form already has more precocious consequently consequently. I'm sticking with four verse. WHO's taught wait for Charlie Apple Being Olefin after we've got a fantastic record nursery. I think he's nineteen seventy six in the last five years which two thousand five percent really highly regarded by connections. You've sent off just nine to four on his debut at Newmarket when he run into about four Godolphin horses losses didn't break and that was rice over next is third behind venture a rebel. We know how good Ventura rebel is. Which is the second that day was lady? Pauline who was ward of the really right. She hasn't performed since debut success but she's a really nice house as well and then last. I'm stay the six and a half furlongs which is why I think with this slide down anyway because he hit a front and then he just changed legs. He was hanging left. He barely clung on the line but I think thank. You was just hiding out in front. I think he's open to more improvement and he's the one for me and this right. If you ever tasted your top whites in nurseries theory on racing posting track race for Intra haven't even on each of the that could be a load of old bullet. That's true it's true okay could be like the outside in the field of three Chimes Ryan. Have you had a good look at this swim yeah. It's an interesting ray. Subsidies nurseries can be quite tricky but unlike one here in excellent from Johnson retired at this meeting and <hes> <unk> last anyway I just think of his rockstars basically run over six to finish ahead of Betis. Hoping Oh purple rain of course he's fourteen times higher. When the Super Sprint he got a little stall during the day and then that was four five wide six hundred as the hallway ran before me on while at the end of the rice the pound kind our within that eighty five when the last day and that nursery of sued turn out to be a pretty good meshing. I think it'd be really solid imagine it'd be twice as a single digits but but I think it'd be very solid <unk> strong rates James Hill whose your selection torres strike for me. I think that one we'll go picture. Frame will be unpopular. I'm I'm sure having been by pair of Royal Ascot winners and one of the distance that neabry loss time but this is a better rice and the performance of Torres strike at pontefract onto fry last time with a really interesting but he's a three runner rice but it was running a good time. I think the formless good and you're going to be sure that one he somehow managed managed troubling running. I think if he had got a clear gap he he would have won. He looked as if he needs the extra furlong and if you look if you need the extra failing pontefract you really do need it so it becomes about him getting the trip okay full forty. Five is the Marco Insurance Ebay Maiden Philly steaks. I've a seven furlong sixteen months. Only five of them going racecourse experience <hes> bit of guests up here James Ron. Why are you interested in rice aid and bringing over one because south at <unk> on Hydrangea Sadegh think that's pretty bad but I didn't think zero for fourteen year and with newcomers echoed with just goes combat dumping. I'm GONNA take her on a couple in here that Haverland Albany which I've pretty good and but I'm GonNa go for fifty. I think she'd be within here and as your guides as you guys in the batting I just think she could have the most improvement to come along these kind of look pretty keen first night but she was taking it back slowly got a little bit of interference taken advised. Loyd <unk> dramatic behind very smart cities and so sharpen Doc lady having disgraced themselves in group companies join lovey rice from twenty yards very eye-catching catching she drawn sixteen to sixteen which isn't ideal will think the market may be dismissed little doubt if more because obviously there's a lot of inexperienced ones in here. I wouldn't be shocked even if she did get a decent opposition from that draft. I think it would be nice each right by some pretty shocking if she wants to run. Rice James quite difficult of a strong opinion. Can you imagine isn't it well. I wouldn't be surprised if I sat this went out to be on the severe crayons node abby popular. We're frank ZAPPA. I just thought that one looked at one pace on Debbie. Buick Nemo kits to depress me for one pick one of the Hanan Pad with preference for Ruby PAB. This could be one to follow the market absolutely <hes> I mean it's an interesting point as opposed to tell him that James Ryan said about Aden's newcomers guidance and you come anywhere <hes> against that give themselves his eye catching pedigree. She's going to dominate the market. How are you going to approach this from from don't think I'll play thirty like maidens novus racist and I think that's too many imponderables and <hes> it's not really my not my bag. I'll have all the stats ourselves have written down but James has already gone through them. O'Brien fourteen goodwood and then of tissues assisted a hydrangea Hermosa so she will dominate the market as you say crayons I think sets a form only half length behind and subsequent listed runner-up light blushing babies pretty decent form that would win. The majority of maiden novice events granted natural improvement. I think if I was debate in the race and I'd look for one day of a price. Teach Way <hes> as we've seen the last couple of years at Goodwood as big price juveniles have been winning races. I think Joyce Bank one with a hundred twenty five to one show a couple of two years ago so I'd go with bright each way. Call Buck does really well these two year olds but really has won a good. I think he's only one one six here in the last five years. <hes> funds abroad is a really decent speedy. American pedigree and she should be really really precocious as well. which is what I would look for in a newcomer you don't want one misinformed up next the stall and then send you money in the first three or four strides and the booking of James Doyle? I thought it was extremely interesting. Audio starts on how many times he's running for call but but it cannot it'll be many and I thought that was very interested and the final rice of day three at Glorious Goodwood takes place at five twenty might take place a little later than that given the <hes> stunt times could do tend to slip it. It'll it's over five phones. It's the tatler handicap seventeen runners so plenty of each way opportunities and James here with back with you for the first crack. I'm going to go for Alfie Solomon's here. He's actually not worrying about this season. It doesn't seem to think so. He's dropped much seven pounds well. That's an interesting mark. He's actually any two pound higher now than when he finished second in a nursery at this meeting <hes> twelve months ago and he was rated as high as ninety two is a juvenile so we had some pretty decent fool. He's got some cheek. Pieces is his answer that could sharpen them up and he's well drawn and if he can get back to something like near his best form. I think he could be good valley. I can never hear these horses number that Elfi Coffee Soda. Did you say the preview. The previews out for series five of peaky blinders series four Miss First Three series. I just joined in series. Four Solomon's was that wasn't he. I think so yeah okay right. Who'd you fancy. Tom ofo is absolutely possible a minefield in fact and and <hes> if I was going to a good probably leave for this race because I'll be losing money I think but if I was pick one it would be mercenary rose. I'll take a chance on powerboats of Boston White for POCO. She's still highly of originate. She was entered in groups three. She ran downfield and dimmer. I'm very well to be honest but just the fact that she was put in the group three suggests they thought she might be better than this being placed in all three runs cents after having a wind up which is I mean it has no real improvement proven in her the moment but she's only a five star so it still could be could be something more to come and she's well punted last time. Our catcher didn't handle the truck that day finish third down two pounds for that will appreciate the Foxy Brown race here and draws sixteen seventeen or because the railroad dead. That's my one of my one doubt really I mean it's not always the the pontoon but she would be the one hopefully angled out because should be held up by imagine behind a fast pace very defeated. James Ron you NAS and confident on this one. I am de Gen- Kinda like when here now don't try amplify and I think I'd be the best form of fields majors Sierra's into Sheffield Handicap. One by morrow edge on the second second was causing done. They're both way ahead of their Mac on his back and finished up day. There's only one pound higher. Master doctrine is he. He wanted Windsor last night onto king <unk>. Everyone was kinks and he's making one of the big three year. Old Handicap at Newmarket at the weekend is by seven pence higher such thinking community. Radi sounded seem. I'm happy to stick with the firefighters. On of course you kind of mentioned the draw there so he's drawing seventeen of seventeen and that doesn't actually bother me too much if you look at the five hundred camping out there on Tuesday the winner on the second for John <unk> biased and second highest stones some not too concerned about that. I think she'd go forward your back the rail I think he could be quite difficult to beat here and what is a big runner handicapper Catholic. I can see him being you know bit of in each vices of how I think Kadarshian on. I think you'd already hoping for price. Wise joins ev even during the seven eight one mark. I think it'd be very excellent. I'm there tomorrow so forward to. I'll definitely that and I'm back Alfie because I like old Alfie. Sorry Thom I'm nothing against she beat. You might the week his case. She said you go on. It wasn't right then. Let's get the naps it will not be James. Hill who you're GONNA go for not very exciting but I do think the seventy four is a decent price getting stuck into about Hermosa in the free forty-five Nestle stakes Tom Fourth Fifteen one fifty and James Ryan Cap Sante price in the three o'clock. I catch up. Thank you very much in deed that is it a giant Joe Hosting smart for the date four. What's the highlight on Friday and I'm trying to think I see the King George States and <hes> big handicap as well. How many King George's otherwise a few now in the King George King George Yeah absolutely thirty okay so James Back tomorrow on on looking ahead to Saturday to join us for them success. Ain't it's bought ought that's why at Patty power we pay the big bucks for the best techniques in the world to develop our new fastest ever APP download the new APP from the APP store or placed on now eighteen plus become Gumbel dot org now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the Dominion Energy Reliability Investment our new investment product offers competitive returns no maintenance fees and flexible online access to your money make the reliable investment in reliable energy the Dominion Nyon Energy Reliability Investment to find out more go online to reliability investment dot com. That's reliability investment dot com.

James James James Hill James Ron Tom Royal Ascot John John Hermosa Alfie Solomon loyd William Haggas Jimmy Hill James Run Newmarket John Gosden London Harry Bentley Michael Stoute Emma Sun Bridge Millington Ann James Ron Roland Coventry
Top U.S. Diplomat To Ukraine Testifies; Making Sense Of The Quid Pro Quo; Political Firestorm

Anderson Cooper 360

47:50 min | 1 year ago

Top U.S. Diplomat To Ukraine Testifies; Making Sense Of The Quid Pro Quo; Political Firestorm

"Buying process smoother for you get started online at rocket mortgage dot com slash A. C. three sixty equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states nmlsconsumeraccess.org number support for Anderson Cooper three sixty comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken loans their team of mortgage expert is obsessed with finding a better way which means that their number one goal is to make the meeting was conditioned on the investigations that same day he texted his concern to Sunland the two then spoke by phone quoting again from Taylor statement during that phone call ambassadors Sunland told me that president trump had told him that he wants Linski to state publicly that Ukraine will investigate Burris Ma and alleged Ukrainian Inter wanted President Zelinski in public box by making a public statement about ordering such investigations again ambassador tail wrapped up his testimony. Shortly good evening it is entirely possible that this day may turn out to be one of the most consequential days impeachment inquiry as well as possibly this presidency ice read Reviews Check Project Cost Guides and book appointments go to Homeadvisor DOT COM or download the free homeadvisor APP to start your next project out of those denials today ambassador Taylor's account makes it even plainer everything Taylor says he was told everything depended on Zilenski committing to his end difference in the two thousand sixteen election quote ambassador Sunland said everything was dependent on such an announcement including security assistance he said that President Trump testimony on Capitol Hill behind closed doors is being called that significant by some who heard it. The country's top diplomat in Ukraine told Congress told Congress and by the way he's to push for a quid pro quo with the president of Ukraine military aid and a White House visit in exchange for investigating the firm type to Joe Biden son hunter talk with Ukraine's President Dolinsky insured Taylor's testimony which just wrapped up describes the very thing the president has supporters had been denying for weeks now this point graduate of Vietnam Vet who served this country for fifty years he revealed the in great detail and in no uncertain terms that president trump himself directed his people president through his TD lawyer Rudy Giuliani the European Union ambassador Gordon Sunland trump supporter energy secretary Rick Perry and others sought such an arraignment N. investigating conspiracy theory about the two thousand sixteen election shorts affairs William Taylor described an effort operating outside normal diplomatic channels by which the end of that quid pro quo and doing so publicly and by his account there was nothing subtle about it in a statement ambassador Taylor describes the September first phone call with national before airtime joining us right now is New York Democratic Congressman Gregory meeks senior member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee congressman thanks for being with us how much more were you continues quote I was alarmed by what Mr Morrison told me about these Sunland your conversation this was the first time I had heard that the security assistance not just the White House there's no quid pro quo no quid pro quo quid pro quo no quid pro quo there is no fro well well keeping them honest I mean the there was no quid pro quo turned into a full blown threat full-blown quid pro quo and I just don't see it there was never any quid pro quo houses own transcript or that July twenty fifth conversation which is a rough transcript not word for word between the president and the Ukrainian President Already Makes Pretty Much a mockery get a fair price that's where home advisor can help from leaky faucets to major remodels homeadvisor connects you to the right pro for the job in seconds and even helps you get a fair price Security Council aid Tim Morrison quoting now during this same phone call I had with Mr Morrison he went on to describe the conversation that Ambassador Sunlen had with Mr to learn from Ambassador Taylor today beyond what he said in his opening statement which was long and detail what we learned was that with Ukraine wherever Ukrainians are dying on a daily basis as a result of that attack and his whole focus that he was he is a Patriot that he comes with no political agenda that he has his only concern about the significance in the importance of of the Ukraine relationship with the United States of America and the fact that Russia is actively engaged in military conflict the meeting in Warsaw Ambassador Sunland told Mister your Mac that the security assistance money would not come until present Zelinski committed to pursue the birds might invest we have an opportunity to be a free democratic society and not subject to the dictates the dictator from Russia your colleague Congressman Mark Meadows said after is impeachment inquiry there is no special prosecutor as it had been previously and so we are conducting an inquiry and Gatien Barista is the train company that Hunter Biden one serve on the board of your Mac is a close aide to President Dolinsky of Ukraine Ambassador Taylor same manner that a special prosecutor had in the past and in fact this is more open because in the special prosecutor case there was no member of fastener Taylor testify for ten hours and I'm quoting he said I can assure you there's no quid pro quo how important is it to have some of these hearings public because not we would not have taken the job but for him wanting to do the best voice country standing by his country to show the Ukrainians that they could hearing embassador Taylor today that you know he can assure people there's no quid pro quo what do you make of that comment hearing apparently you guys heard both the same things or fairness or any legal rights all Republicans must remember what they are witnessing here a lynching but we will win he came under a lot of criticism from many quarters it's not something that is joke or that we'd take lightning and so we're looking at and listening to all of the witnesses that testified because this is is isn't it important would it be important for the public to actually hear what is being said behind closed doors look at some point we're going to get the public hearings but remember what embassador Taylor told you today and what ambassador Sunlen who by the way is not a career a foreign service officer he business person who is a trump supporter I know that they're breaking the law and apparently he did that's why he said no quid pro quo China protect themselves knowing that he was breaking the law and trying to hold up the a drive for the truth the American people deserve to know the truth and that's what we're trying to do so we're going to take further testimony that'd be more we are doing a meticulous job that is fair and open the president just lastly the president today tweeted the term yes I said those words but you cannot put it in the same context the president trump ah I wanna read something he tweeted he quoted he tweeted and I'm quoting so someday if a Democrat comes president the Republicans win the house even by a tiny margin they can impeach the president without due process president of Ukraine to get some political so that he could benefit and his political campaign in twenty twenty given that there are several inconsistencies between the money all of next week we'll combined transcripts will be open for people to read and at some point there will be open hearings and so look made the ambassador to the European Union based on that there's inconsistency before Taylor said and embassador Sunland told you last week do you think munch needs to be called back to explain those differences. I think there's going to be further question that's why we're still in the inquiry this is a serious process that we were engaged in the Democrats politically motivated closed-door secretive hearings everyday this nonsense continues more taxpayer time and money is wasted president trump has I or anyone there in this case there is Democrats and Republicans and respective attorneys that are in the room so when you hear Congressman Meadows say you said he's the president of the birther movement he's the one that said does in Charlotte Charlottesville fan people liberty to save and used that world congressman. MEEKS I appreciate your time thank you very much. In addition to to that tweet the White House has just added bureaucrats waging war on the constitution there was no quid pro quo the statement continues today was just more triple hearsay and selective leads with me an individual in the context of people whose family had been subject to Lynch and so when you also think about who donald trump is and it was in a godfather movie was somebody said well you're a businessman and you don't get paid anything until you deliver what we want and he said when the president didn't say no eating the way for the American people by delivering a safer stronger and more secure country do nothing democrats should consider doing the same let's talk about joining US senior political analyst David Well I'll I say to the American public it's out there now so read the trends could beat the text of a statement basically he said it was one side to meet you would almost seem as though pro quo as if that meant there was no he said don't release the money unless we get what we want that is a quid pro quo if you expect someone to say when believe him or not if you look at his his service to the country you know West Point graduate served in Vietnam this is this Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham putting out a statement here it is in full president trump has done nothing wrong this is a coordinated smear campaign from far left lawmakers and radical vials and CNN senior political commentator David Axelrod as well as C. N. N. White House correspondent Abbie. Philip David Extra it's pretty you're seventy grisham first of all it's nice to hear from her opponent so the idea that they're suddenly concerned about the misuse of taxpayer money is is pretty rich and also ambassador Taylor I mean whether you the people that good people on both sides those same individuals that would have lynched my ancestors when you think about what he's done he's talking about the Central Park five when you talk about all of the missions going on at once one was the official US policy to work with Ukraine to ward off the attack the ongoing attack from the president trump is that he is holding hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money over the head of the Ukrainian president in order to get dirt on his own domestic political and deep deeply offended by what he saw appalled by what he saw as he should have been you know about the president's tweet this morning leaving aside the the word lynching which is a story in and of itself I hope that if another president were to do this of either party that the we rarely do but there haven't been any briefings in so long to hear her a talk about a misuse of taxpayer money the allegation against outs it read like a detective novel and his own exercise in discovery that his worst fears had had been true all along Congress would would do what they're doing now because basically this isn't a story about the corruption of the crane Ukrainian government this is doc Giuliani was working within a normal process Giuliani was working outside of the normal process against US foreign policy and leaving out career officials from the process and by the way Bergen who like who like embassador Taylor both Republican and Democratic Presidents also seen she put analyst Gloria Borger joining us former senior adviser to President Obama host of the acts corruption at the highest levels of the United States government and Taylor's account today was painstakingly detailed he obviously had taken copious today I know that back in nineteen eighty nine hundred ninety eight I think it was you you call President Clinton's impeachment political inching I'm wondering what you make of the president it's about is they had the inside track to president trump because of TV lawyer Rudy Giuliani and whereas the the the the Russians and the other was running completely in a parallel direction and that only compounds the seriousness of the out of the decision making process so it wasn't just that president trump decided to delegate Ukraine to an outside adviser in Giuliani Senate majority leader hanging out to dry details ahead support for Anderson Cooper three sixty comes from our friends at rocket thing and let last point on this because I know others have thoughts on this the other thing that was appalling about this was the notion that there were two eh whistle the compensation that he's having the gods to race relations in discriminatory practices that he's had his businesses no donald trump does not the fact is the president of the United States through his agents were shaking down You the Korean government I mean it is an appalling she developed in the heart of Detroit rocket mortgage is changing the game visit rocket mortgage dot com slash A. C. Three sixty and take the first step toward the home of your dreams. Yeah no slouch no and in fact he has devoted himself to service or the country clearly not a political wearisome service housing lender licensed in all fifty states consumeraccess dot org number thirty thirty rocket mortgage by quicken loans push-button get mortgage hey guys this is Colorado career diplomat did not in fact the ambassador gets gets fired and the Taylor describes on several occasions. Career officials policymakers being boxed Promo Code Warner for a sweet twenty percent discount even performed Bashur William Taylor spoke to Congress today the president was speaking out listen to what he said yesterday occurs behind closed doors after his opening statement which public later a split among Republicans with one top ally the president embracing even his most controversial statements and another who happens thirteen of mortgage experts is obsessed with finding a better way which means that their number one goal is to make the home buying process smoother for you with the history of industry leading online lending technology on June no questions asked for twenty percents off your first order visit Mac Weldon Dot Com and enter Promo Code Warner w the president trump is a businessman when businessman is about to sign a check to someone who owes him something he said the businessman ask that person to pay up before signing the check on quote at the same time doing business in characters we're going to pick this up after the break when here from David and Gloria when we come back as we learn more about what exactly ambassador Taylor toll on law or I'm sure you guys can't stand shopping but it's easy and takes no time to place an order on their website the underwear shirts and sweats are perfect for workouts or when hey and asked ask yourself did he perhaps know how damaging today's testimony might be they're interviewing ambassadors who I'd never heard of I don't know who these people are I'm not sure exactly what that even means and Sunlen himself by the way is a businessman so I guess he knows what he speaks in terms of that but I mean trope from from President Trump Michael Cohen and others come to mind I wanna read something else from Taylor's opening statement about her aid to Ukraine was handled quote ambassador Sunland tried to explain to me I never heard of him I don't know most of these people if I do I met him quickly or a known very little but ambassadors and some others I don't even know most of them on the move this is the most comfortable clothing I own making it hard to go back to anything else and if you think I'm lying give it a try you can keep the first pair of underwear and they'll still you're any are warner stop wasting your weekends in stores make it easy and get premium topnotch fabric with Mac wellman dot com don't forget that here's an active lifestyle tons of travel during football season constantly on the go I can't sacrifice style comfort and thanks I don't have to morgage by quicken loans imagine how it feels to have an award winning team by your side through every step of the mortgage process it's awesome exactly what you get with rocket mortgage by quicken loans and he couldn't figure out until one day somebody told him we'll guess what the president doesn't want Ukraine to get that money unless Ukraine does exact Rosen Ukrainians had died at the hands of the Russians and this was an existential issue as far as he was concerned and instead the press he found himself trying to figure out like a wilderness of mirrors trying to figure out what was going on in the policy he was trying to oversee president was playing politics and said I'm not GonNa let you have the money that legally you are entitled to unless you do me a political I never even heard of their names back now with David Gergen Gloria Borger David axelrod and Abby Philip Gloria I want to read something I mean the the I don't know this person is kind of Chris Somebody with a great deal of credibility he's been a public servant for over fifty years he seasoned in terms of diplomacy and foreign policy and familiar with bottle service but actual service to the country that used to mean something in Washington to the president to a president it seems perfectly perfectly aligned with how president trump sees the world although in business he was certainly known for people or undercutting how much he rose after the you know the the service of this person you know they'll write them off as deep state as a professional bureaucrats aided by Congress period it was supposed to go to Ukraine where as Mr Taylor pointed out today thirteen thousand would he wants and it was it was stunning and I don't see how anybody sitting in that room and I know the Republicans who came out and said differently but I don't know how anybody sitting in in that room could say that was okay David Gergen and yet the White House from President saying I don't know I never heard of this person you know over and dig up dirt on my political opponent and I think that's why this testimony today was so devastating as you pointed out Anderson Taylor fifty years of service from West Point to Vietnam War to high positions that's that means something it's not the president they know that he is in deep trouble and they're going to full partisan warfare here to try and hold the Republican base and make it difficult for Publican's to stray they're going tribal on this because the facts are against them I slightly disagree with David on the John Dean point only to this degree that John Those conversations yet but but this was incredibly incredibly damning testimony and I think the worse it gets it did it did Anderson and I do think you're right to talk about the respect in which Mister Taylor is held widely it is also worth pointing out the two suppliers and the difference here is this is not his money this is American taxpayers money that's the whole point this money had been appropriate gene testified to first person conversations that he had with the President President trump has been very careful to work through intermediaries and we haven't quite flushed out mance respect on both sides his services schooling by the way it went to the Kennedy School as most West Point the and I think has earned a lot of credibility comes out of the Taylor hearing said I can tell you there's no quid pro quo so I'm not sure if let me give you a clue here this isn't on the legit okay he I g the whistleblowing false account I mean this is just he's making he literally just make stuff up and I mean first of all there're others probably have to come back there's only Martin should come forward there's a lot more investigation to serve pin this down the David I mean the Congressmen Work Meadows was all about whistleblowers you never hear what happened to the whistle blower they go because they've been discredited what happened to the informant and AH I can't remember a time since Nixon when any president the United States has been accused in this way with the evidence what being what it is now it's not conclusive and been confirmed just about it reads like it sounds like what president trump is saying that he's running out of people to to scapegoat to attack for that he was per cent Ukraine as an ambassador by George W Bush the Republican of course he was then called out of retirement we're gonNA need to see the note and say departments likely withhold them but we have to see the notes as either they're consistent with a statement he made Sunlen is going to have to come back I'm from my perspective historians look back and say this was another John Dean moment when someone went and open the curtain what we could see of a president of the United States the mendacity we've seen here the line we've seen open curtain is really important and not sense Nixon have we had want to go back to Ukraine recently by Secretary Pompeo you know that he he said we need to have you there we're talking about a guy who can thirty thirty finding the right pros for home projects can be tough and spark a lot of questions like how do I find a pro who can help will they do a good job will yes I think it was contrary to EU foreign policy it had nothing to do with US foreign policy it had everything to do with don trump pre-election policy and what so hall not a letter first of all the idea that no one's talking about this perfect letter anymore the letter which they White House released thinking clearly president thinking I said yesterday I should point out I listen to this thing is all about a letter that was perfect you never hear the letter anymore he's finding it difficult to make some of these people especially someone like Bill Taylor has you talked about his reputation into a foil think you'll find a way to the White House dawn the detailing a lot of the things corroborating a lot of the things that were in the whistle blower report and it's frustrating to him president trump works well when he has adversaries when he has foils he's there are an and he really is the issue is becoming diffused among people that the president himself said he does not know he does not know these people very well and they're coming in is perfect is incredibly damning is at the center of this and the idea that nobody talks her the whistle blower anymore it has moved beyond the person who the more his supporters argue process because they can't argue on the substance of the Abbey I wanna play me that the President President Said said today on this I'd give him credit my he you know he makes John McCain into Mike Taylor who with great bravery this to the floor been affirmed by everything that we because it's no longer so much about the war because everything is low has said Abby we we we have one with the one and only John Dean John Dean moment when he joins us next over your sweat pants are on for the day but you're sick of me we've got to go David Gergen Gloria Borger dear abby thank you David mentioned John Dean moment artfully David David Gergen specifically they told me that embassador sudden had connected investigations with an Oval Office Meeting for presidents alinsky would so irritated ambassador Bolton that he abruptly ended off your ancestry. DNA Kit that's ancestry dot com slash three sixty for twenty percent off your ancestry DNA kit ancestry dot com slash three sixty between the two men in which Taylor said it was quote crazy to link aid to political aims this is how sunland described it quote on September nine two thousand nineteen more than just a name they've combined DNA results with over one hundred million family trees and billions of records to give you more insight into your genealogy and origins ancestry is unique features and record collections can give a more complete picture of people from your past like the events that shape them how they made a living even how long they attended school following how and why your family moved from place to place and to amplify your results you can start a free trial on ancestry and build a tree so your ancestors connects you to the places in the world while your story started using precise geographical detail in clear cut historical insights you can even trace your ancestors journeys over time let me digging in to find out more about long lost relatives I'd never even heard about so excited to learn more about them go to ancestry dot com slash three sixty today for twenty percents restaurants like chipotle lay Wendy's chick fillet and the cheesecake factory. Don't worry about dinner let dinner come to you with door dash right now our listeners can get five dollars off there it's so easy to get started I'm eagerly awaiting my own results though I've already been contacted through the site by a distant cousin about a shared great great grandparent which is restaurants in thirty three hundred cities so you might find a new favorite to with door to door delivery in all fifty states and Canada or from your local go to's or choose from your favorite national easy opened the door dash APP choose what you want to eat and your food will be delivered to you wherever you are not only is your favorite pizza joint already on board ash but there are over three hundred forty thousand first order of fifty dollars or more when you download the door dash APP and enter Promo Code a C three sixty that's five dollars off your first order when you download the door dash APP from the APP store and enter evenings with me then or later now nine days later Taylor says he spoke with Bolton to Bolton's to AIDS he says they painted a different picture of that meeting quote Promo Code a C three sixty. Don't forget that's Promo Code. AC three sixty for five dollars off your first order from door dash ever wonder where your family comes from you can discover more about them and learn about your story by combining the ancestry DNA test with billions of historical family records ends as Regina gives you so much more than just the places you're from and eating telling Dr Hill and Mr Edmund they should have nothing to do with domestic politics in other incense Taylor adds a lot of context too much talked about group tax discussion her and businessmen and who was named ambassador to the European Union for instance one concerns July meeting at the White House between us and Ukrainian officials sunland testifies that he democrats are zeroing in on what they believe inconsistencies in today's testimony by William Taylor the top US diplomat in Ukraine and that of Gordon Sunland a presidential William Taylor Taylor raised concerns about the possibility that Ukrainians could perceive a linkage between US security assistance and the president's twenty twenty reelection campaign and other members of the administration wanted to schedule a call and meeting between the two Presidents but members of the NFC including John Bolton his aides Fiona Hill and Alexander Vinson did not nevertheless all was above board he said and I'm quoting but if Ambassador Bolton Dr Hill or others harbored any misgivings about the propriety of what we were doing they never shared those recall president trump directly the president repeated no quid pro quo multiple times I tried hard to address ambassadors Taylor's concerns Taylor says this conversation protects actually this man on a businessman is about to sign a check to someone who owes him something he said the businessman asked that person to pay up before signing the check joining us handy day before over the phone this was how he says Omlund described the president's position then quote on September Eighth Ambassador Sunland tried to explain to me that president trump is Komo informa- Nixon White House counsel John Dean CNN chief legal analyst and former Federal Prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin so Jeff Democrats have already indicated they want ambassador Celente come back and explain some of these these differences if he sticks to his story does it then become a he said he said seems like Taylor has actually very careful note I it seems that way and there are also other people present including John Bolton who is this should not be relationship with Ukraine should not be tied to domestic politics Bolton is is subpoenaed does he have to you know very much in part of Taylor Story and and Bolton is one of the people who sang stop this nonsense with Giuliani he's saying Congress about this but we'd seen in people like Taylor's testimony that a lot of people are ignoring that instruction and we'll have to see whether boating Bolton well one of the many fascinating the official policy of the White House outlined in that incredible eight-page letter from the White House counsel was no one can talk ever onto aspects of today's testimony was that it raised the possibility of so many more people testify including Bolton including Mike Pence including contest right well he's no longer a government employee and he's no longer in good odour at the White House nor is he very fond of the president now apparently so it's up to John Bolton I mean what the he's describing a conspiracy that's an operation and they he gets a little bit of information about what is actually going on but he sutton certainly doesn't become a coke would be wrong I did not and would not ever participate in such undertakings now according to Taylor's testimony today that's exactly what he did at the ask the president trump certainly sounds that way anderson what we have here to me is most striking about Taylor's testimony embar the attorney general lots of people were implicated by this testimony John I wanna read part of what embassador Sunlen said during his testimony last week he said quote inviting a foreign I've been to undertake investigations for the purpose of influencing an upcoming US election would-be wrong withholding foreign aid in order to pressure a foreign government to take such it's winding up at this point anyway it's it's devastating testimony sunland got some problems he's going to have to come in and either recant or spirit her and he certainly doesn't like what he learns about that conspiracy so I think that you know it's also striking that the Justice Department is ignore during this whole conspiracy which in a sense is still ongoing if it's not ended soon we'll we'll know but I I he may be prosecuted you think the Justice Department what should investigate or in what way well they they when they when this case was referred host aiding and abetting this conspiracy the fact that bar certainly knows they're not investigating this and they turned it down it got turned down apparently everything flows from the president's apparent decision to condition aid to the aid to the Ukrainians and them initially they took a pass on it. They said they don't see anything amiss here well that's just it's absurd they're not investigating is at the assistant attorney general level in the Criminal Division and they did it obviously because they they knew the center of this conspiracy is the president of the United States a White House meeting with their agreement to provide dirt on Joe Biden and Democrats that's an abuse of presidential power. I'm not sure it's a crime and remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash CNN history is unfolding before our eyes at break join us by subscribing on your favorite podcast APP like Apple. PODCASTS stitcher Google podcasts and spotify you saw earlier the White House the insane impeach which I'm CNN Political Director David Chalian this is the daily DC impeachment watch it's almost hard and yet they are all running against him in two thousand twenty every weeknight will hear from Washington insiders who know the story leave that so much information has come out and such a short period of time every day a new set of revelations in the impeachment saga all of the candidates agree that the president needs to be impeached through these tweets comparing the impeachment to lynching or seventy grisham putting out a statement a faceless statement going after some of these you know career pushing back aggressively on the testimony from William Taylor the top diplomat in Ukraine calling him the others who have so far testified quote radical unelected bureaucrats sure anyone else who participates in that crime. It's just an abuse of power and a high crime and misdemeanor under the Constitution we gotTA leave it there unfortunately Jeff Toobin thank you John Dean next speaker the president must be held accountable versus a deep state operative pure and simple donald trump is violated his oath of office no quid pro quo whatsoever time in the sense of violation of federal law it's an abuse of presidential power this seems like a classic impeachment case because the discussions going on inside the White House is telling me tonight that there are some advisers the president who would like to see some additional communication staffers brought on to help with the messaging that's right I really didn't hear from her we don't hear from Seventy Gershon because the White House press secretary doesn't hold briefings Anderson but I can't tell you that a source close to what happened last week with Mick Mulvaney some performance in the briefing room there's been a feeling among some of the president's advisors that he needs to beef up this medication team and then he can't just do it in terms of these impeachment proceedings that there isn't a fair due process going on for the president that they can't have administration lawyers for example during some of these proceedings and so the I it's really about corruption that's the whole focus what we're seeing right now is a case being belt we've never been in a situation like this before the daily DC impeachment walk Glenn Gidley Holding Briefings or Kellyanne Conway I understand why add more people is just to like beyond Fox more during the day like more ad there is a sense that they do need to be things up over here because what's happening right now working right now or not working right now for the White House is not helping the President I don't understand the idea of them beefing of coming out of this White House with respect to this impeachment effort it has been seen as lacking so far according to some of the president's advisors some of this predates there are people inside the president's impeachment team legal team people who advise them who say that they do have a case to make a with respect to protecting the president and the presidency but that message he's just like that's what's so extraordinary about this story is that at the core is not what I see as a crime president about that phone call so getting this story straight is not the only problem the president has made for himself of course in the Ukraine controversy today is Jim hours of the day they can be on Fox News Anderson I think they really there is a sense among some of the president's advisors that they need to have a much more professional operation in terms of talking about the strategy and again it hearkens back to Nina Simone and Billie holiday when they sang strange fruit they weren't talking about Peach trees are apple orchards they were talking about black quote Jim Acosta joins us now from the White House Jim so what is the latest on this and we we just heard from Stephanie Grisham that that statement mission while some of the folks on the president's legal team and in its communication stream they have not wanted a so-called war room because they see that sort of going back to the Clinton era of the late nineteen as to mention as we reported the top he tweeted this quote all Republicans must remember what they are witnessing here a lynching Joseph defend the president's comparison to lynching one who did up Stephanie Grace doesn't do briefings nor does anyone else apparently in the White House Public Relations Machine night you don't see what do you make of this well exhaustion pure exhaustion just having to deal with the expectations that some of us half or Lindsey Graham only to be let down again and again nationals who are inside the State Department side the federal government who have been working for this country for years sometimes decades telling what they know up on Capitol Hill and so I think there's a record well coming up next what are sources of the White House to telling us live report and that is what Mitch McConnell had to say which might surprise you perhaps might annoy the president as well they were hanging from trees throughout the South Lindsey Graham knows that my father is a part of what's called the Emmett till generation nineteen fifty five he was lynched he was brutally slaying. Don't give you a chance to defend yourself they don't tell you what happened to you they just destroy you that's exactly what's going on in the United States House of Rivers credit trouble of his own with that defense here Senator Lindsey Graham Yeah this is a lynching in every sense does lynching main at a mob grabs you it's right now it's an or Lindsey Graham South Carolina join me or CNN global affairs analyst in Washington Post columnist Max Boot and CNN political commentator Zeller's who was previously a state legislator in Centigram

president ambassador Taylor donald trump Ukraine President Zelinski Sunland White House CNN Congress Anderson Cooper US Stephanie Grisham Sunland Colorado White House CNN Linski Burris Ma N. N. White House
Episode 18 - Joe Trippi, CNN Commentator and Strategist for Senator Doug Jones

Clusterf*cked

36:27 min | 5 months ago

Episode 18 - Joe Trippi, CNN Commentator and Strategist for Senator Doug Jones

"This. Is. Cluster fucked. Here's your host Roger King. This is the cluster funk podcast where we waste no time, we know your time is valuable. So we get right down to it. I'm your host Roger King I'm going to throw out some very well known names in American politics, and then tell you what they all have in. Common Ted Kennedy Walter Mondale Gary Hart Former California Governor Jerry Brown former Vermont governor Howard Dean. John. Tulsi. Gabbard. Seth Moulton Alabama Senator Doug Jones we could go internationally Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi and British Prime Minister Tony. Blair's well, what are they all have in common? Well, my guest today has worked for or with or as a strategist or as a campaign manager for everyone I just mentioned he's a legend in democratic circles and really internationally to one of the rightist political strategist around currently a CNN political commentator and strategist media adviser to Senator Doug Jones who is running for reelection in Alabama. This November my pleasure to welcome Joe trip to the cluster fuck podcast. Thanks for coming on Joe be with you. Roger in. Really look forward to it. Well, of course, I want to talk about Doug Jones that embarrassing a little bit embarrassing introduction, but it was nice. It was. Really aged me. I know I I went a little back there. So I of course, I wanNA talk about Doug Jones in the reelection campaign and all of that maybe some of the Senate, other Senate races but For starters. I'm curious as I was listening all those candidates you worked with What makes you say? Yes, to a client like to working on a campaign you go into each and everyone thinking hey, you're gonNA win or at least there's a chance to win or have there been some where, of course, you don't have to name any names but were you agreed to work with them even though maybe the chances of victory were were Kinda. Slim. I, you know I'd say, almost for most of them. Are People. I worked with the or for. Almost. Know most people thought they add note not chance Certainly. Seth. Moulton certainly. The of course, in turned out we didn't make it but But when I started, I, mean you know be able to know who he was. Like ninety thousand dollars in the bank no one drove to Vermont thinking they were going to go work for the next president of the United States we. hit to two Doug Jones in two, thousand, seventeen mill Democrat did. One Alabama. Twenty. Five years. Statewide. again same thing no one I don't think anybody would I mean no one was going to. To help him thinking. You know I thought he could. But I mean, it just wasn't most people think he had a shot. You know and certainly I look I think Walter Mondale was clearly the front runner I've worked for them to but it it's gotta usually mean for me. I can work for some people I didn't know real well. And then we're surprise later on Was Was it a mistake or not. But for the most part, it's it's people who. I believe in I believe in their campaigning were and the odds The odds are actually the cover the odds the more excited I got human race. Right? I was GONNA say maybe underdog is an appeal of course but obviously have to have something appealing about them as a candidate because there's lots of underdogs who have. No chance you've. I've always thought like you know the front runner doesn't need me I mean there's nothing I can do for I mean they're going to win you know I mean if you take that attack and they're being careful and not not really projecting you know what? I think the country or the district of the state needs Then on you know there's just no challenge there right I also think you're not always believed. You know my job is not to help yet away I think or someone to represent me. In any of these states you're helping someone represents eight of Alabama or the State of California and Jerry Brown's case so. The spectrum of people I work were the. You know there's a long a lot of distance between Jerry, Brown and and Doug Jones right in yen Yeah I. Think they're both. Were were the right person for their state at the at the time. That I was helping well, speaking of front runner just a quick got questions. Are You doing anything? Directly for the Biden campaign at the moment or or near future. I look. I I think you. Gotten. Past the. Whatever my obsession was with working on a anational presidential campaign it it destroys you I mean physically everything. It is a massive toll in maybe it's my age now. But I've. You know I've learned. I always say this I tell anybody in this. Look go work on a presidential campaign. It will be the greatest experience you ever had your life right and soon cynically over the very next thing you will say to yourself as pleased God don't let the ever do that again. So having done. It in Gosh Seven, eight times For a lot of really you know I think people who would have been great president. You know I it was they were each one of the amazing experience and each time I said, don't do that again and then or years later. You forget you remember the greatest experience part and you forget that that what you're about to put yourself through is is a killer. And I like I said as I've gotten a little older wiser. I I can make a difference trying to help Doug Jones win reelection, and some other folks and certainly I I will do what I can to help the Biden campaign. Sure. AM drinking. Forget the hangover at the presidential. ACID. The other side of this is like look the that team most of them have been together for quite a while. And I wasn't going to get that call anywhere I don't think I'm. As. Well, as a lot of other people in the is a pretty tight knit group of folks that have been with him. Many of them since nineteen, Eighty, eight when I was with Gary Hart, Dick Gephardt and year. So I know all of them but we we were on different sides and that's not part of this. I just think they've got a cohesive group The you know feels like a eight they've done so well so far in right Broke over. Broken. Well. Just you mentioned Howard Dean I'm not GonNa talk about the or anything don't worry. I just wanted to touch on money in politics for second before we dive into the Doug Jones and Senate race and all that so. Of course, you were considered a pioneer with the Howard Dean campaign in two thousand four in terms of how you went about raising money. You basically started whole online small donor fundraising era. Do you think now where we're at in political campaigns that money might be a bit overrated I, mean, obviously, you money to run a campaign I'm not saying otherwise but after a certain point like know Michael Bloomberg proved. You you have. You can have all the money in the world but if you don't have compelling candidate or a message, you're probably not going to win there. There's a sort of perception I think particularly on the left that you know money buys elections and all of that and I I feel like the evidence is contrary after a certain point. You know because you can raise money. So easily I'm thinking of someone like Andrew Young who Made made an impact, but you know raise millions of dollars from a tribe online but didn't have you know wasn't able to get any delegates or when he states or anything. So what are your thoughts now what I've said here in terms of where we are with money in politics. I do think. Message is way overrated and even message money with a narrow messages overrated and you know frankly the best example that might be Joe Biden NAM HE A. He didn't do anywhere near the kind of money that Bernie Sanders Elizabeth four enter. Even Yang. Raising Online Didn't. have any. Money for TV. Nothing I mean compared you know didn't do selfie lines that stuff that we saw and the mall the mall in. South Carolina and beyond and I think that's because. He he is the message. I'm wondering now, how many billions of dollars get spent young, Kim attacking trump attacking biden really in the end. It does matter right the the basically the choice chaos versus community. Right. We you can trash the hell out of the guy is community contrast the hell out of the guy, his chaos people people decide or more years of chaos or community. Them have such strong brands. They're like one name recognition all of that, right right. So how many to meet one of them out spins the other one by five billion bucks is a really I I'm not I. Think it's already we already know what we what we believe about them. I. Don't think much is going to change I. think that's a problem trump of it's also a you know the the the thing that. That the by people have to guard against Is You know complacency not I mean they gotta fight everywhere and and not get greedy and go into states. not. Basically stay focused on the electoral college wins not on. You know moving to the moving the number about ground states to such a large number that they overextend themselves. But the they're much better position because I think I think everything is going on everything that happens right now is just adding to the chaos, the people or tie. In an and he's The Way to end it. So I think Getting back to your money question. A Joe Biden might be able to go the entire way being completely outspent by every one of his primary a lot of the primary opponents and then being outspent by trump. instill the contrast between trump screaming at a rally in Joe Biden just being who he is A. Former. Vice President. Who knows how to turn the lights on the Oval Office? and. An wants to bring people together. That's that's that's. Carry the day. Yeah. Yeah. No I. completely agree with you. Let's dive into the the Doug Jones race in case anyone's forgotten. Of course Doug won the special election two, thousand seventeen defeating the infamous Roy Moore who will not be the opponent this time around when Roy was one of the losers in the Alabama Alabama primarily this year now down to to the runoff coming next month for the Republican nomination between Jeff Sessions and Tommy Tub Revival of former football coach Now trump of course, has been very open about his hostility toward Jeff sessions because he recused himself in the mother investigation Do you do you have a? Favorite like who you would rather face between those two candidates I got best have no idea I mean I in a given week, I can swing back and forth not just me everybody in the campaign I mean you know on Wednesday you're thinking. Okay. So Donald Trump president trump's out there saying, Jeff sessions is the biggest mistake he ever May In. Campaigning hard. You're pushing a top rebel hard. Then tell her goes out gets asked about What what would he recommend on the cope crisis? Is it was he really he enough in Alabama and he says is any says quote I wouldn't have a clue. so I mean anything. Okay. Maybe. Maybe that's nt does this Awad I mean? He's just not. I'm not sure footed at all not the right word for it. It's just clossal like. How. Does anybody say they don't have a clue about what do about Kobe seeking? A Senate seat. So. It's been. You know now I think session. By honest assessment right now is the. Bills it doesn't matter. We'd rather have a is it looks like it'll be tavern bill on the reason is. Because trump as. You know being just bashing sessions I can't end so far. Doesn't look. I. Think. Sessions is coming back from that a little of in recent weeks again as more. a Alabama Republicans get. That may be this cover bill. Guy Is all cracked up to be as he keeps making these misstatements. So sessions is coming back but I I. I would just be really surprised. If Tub doesn't doesn't carry the day Philadel- yeah. Sessions it's been. He was so far back. I mean he was literally. I think eighteen eighteen to twenty points back a week or two ago. And it's coming up. You can feel that that he's definitely moving but I just don't ask a lot of ground to make up a month, but he might maybe there's time but we'll see. Yeah I mean I guess it could be kind of fun to have trump undermining sessions. If he was the opponent because I think trump is actually doors Seville hasn't Endorsed Lien Tub, bills ads are all I've got I want you to know I have I. I'll have president trump's back one hundred percent So that's what saying you have. Is it all very much like the seventeen race where luther strange in Roy Moore going at it There was a split in the There's. There's this group so if sessions gets it. Their whole Bunch Republicans who know trump doesn't like sessions that doesn't mean vote for were Doug Jones but do they are they do they? What do they do? They not bow percent It's GONNA be harder for sessions to to cope a Cossack group and bring them all him. and. Then likewise, they're going to be a lot of sessions voters. Who are less inclined to vote for? bill saying the same kind of Split. We had that when out of the runoff that happened with Roy Moore in luther strange in two thousand seventeen and you got a lot of sessions voters are voting for. They don't want somebody who doesn't have any other attracted the sessions because he was a senator had attorney general knows how Washington Works it Sarah and are worried about this tougher bill guy who doesn't who doesn't have a clue about Kobe right so if if Yes certainly. Oh comparison experiencewise between the two of them. Tub Right. Enemy. Right and what I'm saying is that boats those p.? inviable. talked it. Jones maybe a off. Those people right? Because he's been in the Senate he's passed seventeen bipartisan bills that gut that donald trump signed all seventeen of them. You know. We may be I'm not talking about you know big chunks. Then we can pull up a pool three or four points year or appointed their you know Republican women because of the you know the bills that he's passed. He. Has. Striven for a common ground in trying to bring people together in all this chaos ovation. That's that's how we won in two thousand seventeen in there. Certainly even more division chaos today and I think the same desire to common ground and come together that Lucy the perfect segue because on this podcast I focused on how Democrats can win more often in red states, which of course often means persuading Republican voters. So yeah. What was what was the approach in two thousand seventeen in terms of doing that and what's it going to be in twenty twenty four for the Jones, campaign. Well I, mean. I it's not just an element of seen as everywhere. Increasingly two, thousand seventeen even we were seeing the Republican women. were literally in two thousand seventeen. A lot of them were would talk about feeling like they were on the edge of their seats every day with what was going on in the country. Is only a year end the. of the trump presidency but they were already Had wanted anxiety about and M.. Juan responded to somebody who is trying to find common ground and bring people together and the other two groups were younger Republicans. who were bothered a lot by the race. Stuff that was happening in I can't imagine that that's diminished much nothing. It's more heightened they're not. They wanted to to to come together in the racial divide. They're not in that younger generation on all sides, but we see it with with a lot a younger Republicans as well they were Part of the group in in in college educated or some Business Republicans, which that also has has heightened as you get. you know with what trump's done. On terrorist and it and other things but But so I just think that the group that was there that we. Were able to win over. Those groups have probably grown in size I were in much better position today than we were. In two thousand, seventeen we we end in the meantime we didn't have a lot to say I mean it was just trust me. I'm going to bring people together and get things done. He you know He. He's been there for three years and he's got a record and. Actually gotten seventeen and they really are bipartisan bills I mean like you know a the widows. Repealing. That with which was something that sashes lead that bill all the years that he was in the Senate and and it never got a gun and it was a bill just gave. Families of military. Ensured that they get their full benefits. had this right? This is a a bill, the U.. Why? Why would it? WHY WOULD Never happen. Year and a half in not years obsessions nothing. Year and a half in. Doug Jones got that bill passed. You gotta ten her right and dot wheels and it's on we're talking about Alabama a state. Strong military air is is the Crowley the last guy from if you didn't, if you just know Democrat Republican. Get done in in for who it was Doug Jones so we've got explain all I mean are seventeen those in like I said trump signed every one of them. Yes. Certainly we we were. Lots of times when we'd Win Jones and trump didn't agree on things but. He worked every day to try to find common ground and actually get things done further people. Now Obama in was I think we're active in really. Well at I saw I think one of the first ads came out today where you're emphasizing the racial harmony part that you mentioned earlier which I guess if you're getting Republicans like you say who are interested in that combined with, of course, you want a gin up African American turnout in Alabama. That's the that's the Combo. Well I mean that's The, the the the. The people that we need to try to reach. Are People who are really bothered struggling with all this division it's going on right now and in not just race Yup all a lot of the things that trump. goes out now and And what you find is. Like I said, women and younger Republicans in. College educated and. The Business Republican in now that this, this is not good to have the country tearing apart at the scenes over a lot of the things that are you know in or anybody to be fueling that vision is not a good thing. So a you know we've been he campaigned in two thousand seventeen on a finding common ground. He's done it for three years. Are Hit he. We have been trumpeting for the better part of the last two years. One Alabama if that's what. He's he wants the people to join together as one Alabama start solving problems together. We didn't know any of this stuff was going to I mean you know I mean be exploding the way it is right now. But in a lot of ways, Eastman speaking directly to this on the day he was I mean be before he was elected. Brett. At part of that does come from the church bombing I. Mean You know he he you know clearly that the Sixteenth Street. Bombing with a four little girls of were killed that he prosecuted input put those two clans behind bars. For that crying like years decades after it happened. I think that that always has been sort of that. This drive to bring people it was like. He justice the way Doesn't mean justice needs to be can be neither and he was going to go for that or how long it took and he did it and I think in all of that he he really. At. His core is, how do we bring we inactive by how we bring people together? How do we end that That intolerance that that that just pure evil yet was already an impressive part of his character in bio and now it fits the moment even. Saying, I wouldn't have I couldn't have predicted where we now I think from what I saw in two thousand seventeen in the People Alabama and how they responded to him. I think. That's saying I. think that is grown You know with people I mean like I said I think there are more women. In Alabama more young people who Who recognized as? His character in what bringing people together him what what he's capable of of would be better than than sessions are bill. That's the the case will may Ryan I feel really good about. Again sort of like. We've gotTA DO to the I've always thought this about our party I. Wish I could. Scream. You know because it's you know this whole we've got to energize our base and get everybody out. And not worry about those and end the the known we need to go over and we don't worry about our base so much take it for granted. We need to move over here in get these. These other books that don't vote for us well. We got to do both things red and in two thousand, seventeen we did we've got a massive turnout and we won a lot of these Republican women, a lot of these younger look. A lot of people talk about so far would you up? We only won by like twenty, three, twenty something that thousand bones but. But you know it was twenty five years in the will. And we pulled them out we old enough over to win on I like I said I. think that's grown. We'll see but and we'll we need all the help. We can get I mean, it's not going to they're going to spend already. Spending. tons. Of, money. In. McConnell on everybody'll be in their. This gets back to your earlier question about the money. It can make a really big difference particularly for somebody with his with Doug. Jones. Character who's willing to take Stan in in. May the case to the people of Alabama that's compelling. But still going to have to have the money to do that. So yeah we in that sense, I do think all the online stuff started with being in. it's made candidates like Doug Jones possible right? Allie. Different thing at the know at a state level I think in president when. We're. it. It's it's it's really important in the Jones effort in the I can tell you for sure in two thousand seventeen. There's no way. No way would have withstood what they were pounding us with without everybody out there. You know doing what they could It was five or ten dollars, but it made a massive massive difference that had that. That's the critical thing it's going to happen with us. It's already happening to us we just need. To get people to start in copper this year because there are so many other races and his presidential race I mean, the one advantage we had in two, thousand, seventeen with. With the Democratic Owners small dollar donors out there was that we were in two thousand seventeen it was a special. All is the only game in town of the. Well. We're GONNA need it just as bad this time but outlets. Good people needed to well, that's sad though I mean it is the most obvious seat. The Democrats need to defend most of the time that are going on the offense and on that note before I let you go can I get your quick assessment of a few other Senate races that most people believe will be competitive the pickup opportunities that you think I'm assuming you'd start with Colorado and Arizona and go from there. But where else do you think Maine Iowa North Carolina those places are good pickup opportunities for the Democrats. Know there's no question that the last few months have moved the country moved in. Shifting. Away trump's. favorability dropping that's impacting on. a lot of the other points in most of these states were the Senate to the point now, where you could have seven Senate seats that are competitive at least if not, I mean I actually think more will come online. Then we're not necessarily looking at So. You know right now the one thing I would caution though is that as we've seen everything's really volatile of a month and a half from now two months from now I don't see this. I'm saying anything that could possibly happen to change the dynamic I don't think is going to change the chaos China it's GonNa add to it. So in other words you know. The economy's not recover or tomorrow and cope is not going away ran senate whether there's any real action on. on Racial inequality. It's been exposed even if even if. All sides came together tomorrow it's going to take. That's GonNa take a while right and you know so I I just don't see what it is in changes the current dynamic The. Current dynamic is a disaster. right now for the Republicans I, don't see they need A. Their their presidential nominee where somebody who is saying in this moment we need to come together and A. You know. Yeah, maybe but he he's going to double down on on all the division. So I would say look right now it is look if we can do the to both thing is get our base out get people energized to vote I think trump does a lot of that for us but yes, we we need to do it and at the same time. Invite the Republicans. Who are troubled by all this to join us they will if on the other hand, returning out our base and pushing them away from us then we make it a closer election than it needs to be, and we leave the seats on the table. Yeah I never I've never understood that like you said earlier, just what we've got to go for one block of voters or another why wouldn't you go for whoever you can without compromising your principles of course, but you know I thought that was what was great about Obama's campaign was he was clearly going after different baskets of voters with different messages and Yeah No, that's what I'm saying we did that in. A NO I. Think it's. Easier. In a period where there's so much vision. Then it's not about party or any of this other stuff look it's really simple. Do you want to be divided angry at each other you know a hating your neighbor or do you want to come together and actually try to find some place where we can agree and make this better okay. Now I don't really care what party you're in. There aren't enough people in this country who WanNa do the divided hatred there appointing of them yellow not. And that means there's a lot of Republicans. That's what I saw. With Jones if we The people that were turned off by more. Or don't like sessions they look across the aisle in the person we put up with some angry Democrat railing at the Republicans yeah. Yeah I don't think that's going to go. Yeah. Forget that But that's not what they saw. They looked over there and here's a decent civil guy with a big heart who actually cares about people and wants to bring them together and when they saw that there are a lot of Republican women who said Okay I can choose more chaos or I can choose decency civility. In someone who wants to try to heal while there are a lot of people out there who will. and that's why the way I think. That's what sustain a sustained Joe Biden through those primaries. There were plenty of people rail in and doing great dip ailing against the system or against the democratic establishment or whatever, and making good points. Don't get me wrong of. By. But the one guy who all the way through just seem like that decent civil guy who would. Who would try to bring people together in fight for the soul of the nation is worrying is that might have sounded to a lot of. You angry progressives or or you know who progressives wanted to change everything right now and by the way I'm one. That's you know it's just sort of like they I think by that's why he was able to just sort of. You know literally. You know without whole on a effort role the zeal yet begun just a reset calm down and the chaos. Let's be civil kind of message from Biden then from Doug Jones, they're they're they're they're mirrors there it's. well, I appreciate you taking the time to join me here on the podcast. Obviously keep a close eye on the Doug. Jones race as we head towards November and we'll look for you on on CNN Appreciate your insights Joe thanks again. Thank. You and take care I, appreciate it. Thanks. Well. A legend Joe. trippy. So many campaigns over the years going back to the Ted Kennedy SUPERPAC in one, thousand, nine, hundred and Walter Mondale and Gary Hart and Howard Dean and all the rest. Great to talk politics with. Joe. You can find Joe on twitter at Joe trippy. That's T. R, I P I case you didn't know how to spell it at Joe trippy and Doug Jones might as well go to his website to Doug, Jones, dot com and throw a few bucks because it sounds like they'll need it down in Alabama to try and win reelection at Doug Jones. He's of course on twitter as well and I'm on twitter to the civil liberal, but the handle is at cf the podcast. You can follow me there the website is CFC podcast dot com I, always mentioned it's where all the episodes are plus other information about this fine program There's a place there where you can support the podcast if you're so inclined, this is a Labor of love as I always say I don't have a major investor you don't hear any commercials there are no advertisers. So it's just from the goodness of my heart that I do this but there are expenses associated with this fine broadcast were recording at the wonderful studio. Dot, ca I also have website in audio hosting expenses and some other marketing things. So if you feeling generous and you do like our podcast, what we do here. Go to see if the PODCAST DOT com click support the podcast. There was a few bucks we love it. You know whatever you're not throwing the Doug Jones throw our way. We're on facebook as well. You can search for us cf the podcast just. Like the page and we post all kinds of articles and have discussions about things, topics that we cover on this fine program. it is available as well. If you're not listening on at cf the podcast dot com, you can find it on stitcher itunes and Google play and spotify all the pod catchers as they call them in the industry The important thing is you listen, but we do like the visits to see after podcast dot com especially when you sign up for the mailings so we keep in touch. Anyway thank you taking the time to listen cluster fuck podcast a liberal house with red-state gas. This is Roger King Mentally.

Senator Doug Jones Alabama Doug Jones donald trump Senate Joe Biden president Howard Dean Joe Roger King Jones Jerry Brown California Walter Mondale CNN Obama Seth Moulton Roy Moore People Alabama Vermont
House Dems Release Testimony Of Key Impeachment Witnesses; White House Reaction; Another Taxing Decision; Tax Return Fight; Unlawful Unmasking Effort

Anderson Cooper 360

45:40 min | 1 year ago

House Dems Release Testimony Of Key Impeachment Witnesses; White House Reaction; Another Taxing Decision; Tax Return Fight; Unlawful Unmasking Effort

"Support for Anderson Cooper three sixty comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken loans their team of mortgage expert is obsessed with finding a better way which means that their number one goal is to make the home buying process smoother for you get started online rocket mortgage dot com slash A. C. three sixty equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states nmlsconsumeraccess.org number thirty thirty finding the right pros for home projects can be tough and spark a lot of questions like how do I find a pro who can help will they do a good job will I get get a fair price that's where home advisor can help from leaky faucets to major remodels homeadvisor connects you to the right pro for the job in seconds and even helps you get a fair price ice read Reviews Check Project Cost Guides and book appointments go to Homeadvisor DOT COM or download the free homeadvisor APP to start your next project giving tonight for the first time two key witnesses and the impeachment inquiry told lawmakers toll lawmakers we've now have the transcripts of their depositions before the house impeachment committees these are two long Standing State Department professionals with seven decades of experience between them Michael McKinley is former senior senior adviser to secretary of State Pompeo and Marie Ivanovich former ambassador to Ukraine she was forced out of for post he resigned from the Foreign Service and gave into reasons because what they said is so significant and at times mysterious we're GonNa do something a little bit different tonight and read some the most important passages were for word and we'll try the link-up the moments that really build a narrative that according to these two officials illustrate a State Department in Washington operating at cross purposes from diplomats around the world and a White House that was undermining those diplomats for purposes it seemed to have more to do with president trump's political interest than US national security will store the sworn statements in the former senior adviser to Secretary of State pompeo investor Michael McKinley quote the timing of my resignation he testified was the result of two overriding concerns the failure in my view of the State Department to offer support to form employees caught up in the impeachment inquiry and second by what appears to be the utilization of ambassadors overseas to advance domestic political nicole objectives in other words both he and Ambassador von Avenge may clear in their testimony using the people and institutions of government or as you'll see bypassing them for private private personal aims their testimony reflects what they saw and heard is people connected to the president from in and out of the government were to influence the government of Ukraine and squeeze it for the president's political advantage specifically the president's Ukraine on Voi- Kurt Volker European Union campaign donor Gordon Sunland and Rudy Giuliani as ambassador McKinley tells it quote what is clear is that bolt both Volcker and Sunlen we're engaging the Ukrainian government in conjunction with Rudy Giuliani on domestic political critical issues it's clear from Vassar Ianovich testimony the Giuliani's efforts in Ukraine were extensive involving her specifically dating back to late last year a year quoting her now basically it was people in the Ukrainian government who said that Mr Sankoh the former prosecutor general was in communication with Mayor Giuliani and the plans and that they were going to do things including to me it became clear she said that the goal was removing her from her post one point of contention her alleged role in blocking Giuliani's effort to bring ousted Ukrainian prosecutor victor Shokhin to the US apparently in pursuit of Giuliani's political political mission for the president following long Standing Protocol in American consular officer denied him a visa because of his alleged ties to large-scale corruption and remember our president trump and Giuliani they are now claiming that all they care about was fighting corruption in Ukraine but the guy they are trying to bring to the US is himself considered corrupt diplomats who actually know about corruption in Ukraine Ambassador Ivanovich picks up the story quote and the next thing we knew mayor Giuliani was calling the White House as well as the assistant secretary for consular affairs saying that was blocking the visa for Mr. Shokhin and that Mr Shokhin was coming to meet him and provide information about corruption at the embassy including Mike corruption now keep in mind Rudy Giuliani's the president's personal attorney at the time he had no formal role in government hasn't sworn to serve US national interests he's working for for the president doing whatever you can for the president and we should also point out has business dealings himself in Ukraine so maybe there's a money motto motive for Giuliani as well as you might imagine none of what Giuliani was saying about the ambassador made MS Ivanovich a favourite back in Washington but if she testified the Career Foreign Service officer felt stymied saying quote it's not like I sent him a formal cable outlining everything she says it felt very very very sensitive and very political and this she said was making top Ukrainian cranium officials uneasy she describes a conversation with Ukrainian interior minister in February question what were his concerns as expressed to you you've Arnovitz replied he thought it was so he thought it was very dangerous that Ukraine since its independence had bipartisan support from both Democrats and Republicans all these years and that to start kind of getting into us us politics dimissed domestic politics was dangerous place for Ukraine to be became dangerous as well for her down from junior tweeted about in March referring to her as a joker she was signalled out during a segment on Hannity by name she raised concerns about it to Gordon sunland another of the president's emissaries sunlen she says told her and I quote you need to go big or go home you need to you know tweet out there that you support the president and that all these are lies and everything else and you know so you know I mean obviously that was advised advice that I did not see how I can implement in my role as ambassador and as Foreign Service officer so just let's think about this for a moment the advice she she says she got from the ambassador European Union Sunlen who's a major trump supporter and donor was to say Nice things about President trump which is pretty amazing when you think about it that the EU ambassador tells her that the president of the United States is basically a sucker for compliments and can be manipulated by flattery another another lesson she learned was that the road to the president also goes through Fox News here she's describing efforts she heard about to stop the attacks on her quoting the ambassador what I was told by Phil Reeker was that the secretary or prep somebody around him was going to place a call to Mr Hannity on Fox News to say you know what is going on I mean do you have proof of these kinds of allegations or not and if you have proof you know tell me and if not stop and I understand that call was made I don't know whether it was or somebody else in his inner circle and for time Um you know things simmer down by May however she was removed from her post as for her departure from Kiev she describes a conversation with the foreign service director during the Director General Carol Perez who ordered her home quote she said that there was a lot of concern for me that I needed to be on the next plane home to Washington and I was like what what what happened and she said I don't know but this is about your security you need to come home immediately you need to come home on the next plane and I said physical security I mean there's something going on on here in the Ukrainian because sometimes Washington has intel or something else that we don't necessarily know and she said no I didn't get that impression but you need to come back immediately and and I argued with her I told her I thought it was really unfair that she was pulling me out of the post without any explanation I mean really none and summarily this this is not it is safe to say how any of this is really supposed to work out the ambassadors removal not career first aid through twitter not alleged phone calls to Hannity or the president's his TV lawyer scuttling about gathering dirt not any of it or as ambassador McKinley put it in his testimony in thirty seven years in the foreign service in different parts of the globe and working working on many controversial issues working ten years back in Washington I had never seen that for administration officials were supposed to testify today none of them showed up more transcripts are due out tomorrow on talk about all this joining me now senior political analyst David Gergen C. N. N. legal analyst Carry Cordeiro and former Nixon White House counsel a John Dean David I'm wondering how what you make of the transcripts that have been released today I'm we should be very glad they've been released it gives the granular view you actually is much more sobering distressing than what we had heard for today and I think it the details show you that this became a cesspool our own State Department Department came became a cesspool it is is one thing for the American ambassador to be called home because there's a physical threat the investor coming from some thugs or L. rebels outside the gates it's another thing to be threatened by your own government with your physical security being threatened when he asked her to come home and then the president in that phone call with Dolinsky the president of Ukraine they started talking about her and the president said the president stay says she's going to go through some tough things things she felt I riley that was threatening to her and she remains threatened to this day engine it may take as much as a generation listen to restore the foreign service and to attract the kind of talented people we need really you think the damage that's already been done is that right yes I do entire generation the foreign service does not work with a lot of young people many of them used to go into foreign service they're very reluctant to go in now I have no idea what's going to happen to you if it's going to be politicized as an institution Russian the and also whether Washington or the White House cares about what you're doing or believes in fact it's quite clear they don't care about what they're doing John What what does it say about the administration that a US ambassador was being smeared by the president and his allies on the global stage and the ambassador wasn't even convinced that she was physically safe and had to learn learn about this from Ukrainian officials it's amazing what she's like somebody who was hit by a train train and didn't even know she was on the tracks and she'd said that she couldn't even imagine it's laser testimony the six and seven months she'd been and through all ready now what happened Anderson in her revelation was very interesting when she heard the rumor of the report in the hill publication the interview with Louis Inco and I happened to look at that because it was prompted my interest in reading the transcript and the interview is a setup they're all leading questions to the Cinco it's like the hill was hidden in the loop on this old thing assume they're going to be a witness at some point yeah Whoa I think there's a there's a report from the hill I think who has been mentioned who was doing a lot of this reporting early on after Carey sorry I mean after reading the ambassadors transcript it's almost difficult to overstate just how much havoc Rudy Giuliani was was allowed and able and encouraged to to to wreak and it also seems really I mean for the president's be claiming that won't be claiming this was all concern about corruption in Ukraine the server the Biden's the all the people it seems like or many of the people that Giuliani and the president isn't it kind of relying on for all their inside information where people who are were allegedly corrupt and had been removed from office because of it right well I I mean that was a that was a fake response and a and a cover story for what was actually going on I think what's interesting as we learn more of these details details is that Anderson the essential facts that we learned about seven weeks ago when the whistle blowers complaint became a publicly known and and then when the White House released the transcript and then just a few weeks ago when the White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney basically admitted what had transpired transpired in terms of holding out aid in exchange for political information from Ukraine is that the underlying facts really haven't changed and what happened is that the president was using his foreign policy authority to get dirt political information that would benefit him and what what I think may becomes more clear through these details in these new transcripts is how much the institutions and in this case the State Department has been under pressure from not just the president and not just people in the White House but from people outside government like like Rudy Giuliani and so when I hear others president's defenders or maybe affiliates in Congress or others who are observing from the outside commentators say well the institutions are holding up this is just a lot of bluster that comes out of the White House you know these aren't things to be really worried about these transcripts showed that the institutions are under tremendous strain well also David strain from the guy who's running the State Department I mean we talk about Secretary of State Pompeo his former advisor Michael McKinley who we just been been reading about he says on three occasions he broached with the secretary the idea of making making a statement of support for for the Ambassador Ivanovich that contradicts what Pompeo himself said about McKinley last month on ABC a play this from the time that ambassador about a bitch departed Ukraine until the time that he came to tell me that he was departing. I never heard I can say a single thing about his concerns with respect to the decision not once not once George did ambassador McKinley say something to me during that entire time I period so I mean obviously now it's a he's he said flicked Yeah Kinda Mike Pompeo was brave and smart I think I think he would ask to appear before the committee under questions and take and deal with under oath under oath under oath that would be that would be minutes and because uh I think it's important for the country that we not have a secretary of state who seemed compromised potentially compromised and a very very serious situation and the State Department Department at whose morale is broken Clearly I mean he doesn't care about that or the president doesn't care about I mean there there're clearly he's the president's guy there but the way that other state you the secretary of state maybe haven't even been because at least some of them believed in the institution itself well Mike Pompeo arrived with with a pretty good reputation he was strong figuring you're in Benghazi against the Democratic Administration but nonetheless he he was a west point he was number one in this class he's he's really smart guy so people thought he's GonNa be another donor room along with Mattis and it turns out in order to survive in this White House you've really got to kiss the ring and the president regularly literally and it ended this compromise your department we're GonNa have more with the panel in a moment a new reporting on how this going down to the White House and what's being done to prepare for day two and and more transcripts later after yet another legal setback only the Supreme Court stands between the President and prosecutors getting a look at his tax returns support for Anderson Cooper three sixty comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken loans imagine how it feels to have award winning team by your side through every step of the mortgage process process it's awesome and exactly what you get with rocket mortgage by quicken loans their team of mortgage experts is obsessed with finding a better way which means that their number one goal is to make the home home-buying process smoother for you with the history of industry leading online lending technology developed in the heart of Detroit rocket mortgage is changing the game visit rocket mortgage dot COM mm slash AC three sixty and take the first step toward the home of your dreams equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states nmlsconsumeraccess.org number thirty thirty rocket mortgage by quicken quicken loans push-button get mortgage hey guys this is kinda rogers I live in active lifestyle with tons of travel during football season constantly on the go I can't sacrifice style for comfort and thanks Amac well I don't have to anymore I'm sure you guys can't stand shopping but it's easy and takes no time to place an order on on their website the underwear shirts and sweats are all perfect for workouts or when you're on the move this is the most comfortable clothing I own making it hard to go back to anything else and and if you think I'm lying give it a try you can keep the first pair of underwear and they'll still refund you no questions asked for twenty percent off your first order visit Mac Welton Weldon Dot com and enter Promo Code Warner W. A. R. N. E. R. Warner Stop Wasting your weekends in stores make it easy and get premium topnotch fabric with macworld dot com don't forget that Promo Code Warner for a sweet twenty percent discount president trump's been the run up to the impeachment inquiry transcripts suggesting they would be tampered with by the Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff that he would put out phony transcripts as of tonight no complaints from Republicans about the veracity acidy of the transcript some grumbling about what one Congressman House Minority Whip Steve scalise called the Democrats quote selectively releasing transcripts from their closed door hearings Republicans are also part of those hearings as for the White House reaction. CNN Shipment Kosta is there for US tonight Has the president said anything so far about the transcripts not not a whole lot Anderson we should point out he's having a rally in Kentucky right now standing behind him on stage are some supporters wearing t shirts that say read the transcript I think the president and supporters quarters referring to the transcript of his phone call with the leader of Ukraine not these transcripts that are being released up on Capitol Hill but as the president was leaving the White House earlier in the evening Anderson he was going going after Marie Ivanovich former US ambassador to Ukraine and at one point he was asked whether or not there was a smear campaign orchestrated against her he did not not deny that and keep in mind this is the former ambassador who said in this transcript of her testimony that she felt threatened personally threatened by the president and the president all he you had to say about Uganda which is that the president of Ukraine did not have kind things to say about her as well right which in the transcript of the actual phone call it was actually I if memory serves me correct it was extra president trump who brought up Ivanovich saying you know not great things about her and saying that you know she was going to go through some some stuff when I'm paraphrasing perfect I don't have the exact quote he waited about about them about the transcript last night before they were released his line has been you know that that Adam Schiff is somehow going to Dr Transcripts that's right he's he's going after Adam Schiff we've seen that He also is continuing to this campaign against Alexander van men the national security official Lieutenant Colonel in the army and you know essentially said to reporters last night that Vinson is a never-trumper and that he has evidence of this and that we're all going to find out what this evidence is he hasn't produced that at this point the other thing we should point out by the way he also said that about the birth certificate of President Obama for the longest time that he had detectives actives in Hawaii and they were finding remarkable thing. We have seen this movie before that's right Anderson and and he has been going after the credibility of the whistle blower as well as a matter of fact this evening at this rally Ali and Kentucky saying that way to find out what this whistle blower has been saying you're going to find out going back to what you're saying Anderson this is a tactic that the president has has used time and again he will often t's things out as if you know this is another episode of the apprentice on next week's episode you're GonNa find out what the whistle blower really had to say when in fact that evidence in that information is presented to the Public Yeah Jim Acosta thanks very much David Gergen Carry Cordeiro John Dean John I mean the notion of somehow these transcripts being faked manipulated when not only are witnesses able to look over their own testimony before these things are are released I mean there are Republicans sitting there as well so I I don't even understand that whole notion is just ludicrous Anderson one of the more interesting reductions is right at the outset of the transcripts where they redact the names of everybody who's in attendance so that shows how few Republicans probably did attend these sessions we don't know because in these these editions least that information is not revealed so oh the redaction actually favors the Republicans for their no-show you're not going to be able to mess with these transcripts of the witnesses no what they said they would would be the outspoken if there was something that was not properly included in there and they're pretty haunting documents and they're going to be even worse when they're played out live Carrie I mean do you think it's a mistake for Democrats tend not try to compel Rudy Giuliani to testify given how central he clearly is in in all of this obviously you know there's political considerations based on timelines I think the Democrats my own view is that they would be wasting their time with Rudy Giuliani I don't think his testimony cermony I think I if he ever were testify it would be a circus I don't think he's not GonNa be cooperative so I think it would be like the Lindau ski hearing I don't think they should waste their time I'm on him at all they have good witnesses already they have they've done their clothes hearings and they have bill Taylor they have Lieutenant Colonel Vin men they have Riana Ivanovic they have ambassador McKinley they have people who have credibility who have given a lifetime of service to the country who are nonpartisan and who have come forward and testified under oath to the facts and so amongst those witnesses and maybe a couple others they'll determine which ones they want to have come in public and give more testimony but I don't think they need Rudy and you know there is transparency now the Republicans have been in an all of these testimonies they're all of these hearings they have now released some transcripts there's now public information about what the process will be so there's a lot of information out there I think there are a lot of information but the day's GonNa come very quickly when these we're GonNa have televised hearings and televised hearings the country deserves to be able to here Josh Bolten under oath he's a gazer one of the people at the center of all of us we deserve to be able to hear from Giuliani under oath we deserved to be able to here from Albany under oath and you know Anderson is I think about these things I remembering another crisis in another administration when Reagan was president in Iran Contra scandal broke and the president was in deep trouble there was talk of impeachment their growing forces for impeachment what did he do he said look we're sending everybody up the hell wants to hear from we're going to send every document up we're GONNA Clean House inside and we're GonNa play this totally open totally straight and guess what it went away hey because he dealt with it was crisis it was still a blot on his record but he did it the right way I mean we're a long way away from and how Reagan handled this I mean you know the we expect more transcripts tomorrow May that may not be the last that we hear from some of these witnesses you know what it's like and how public testimony can really change the dynamics of an investigation that being said all all those sorts of comments were made about you know what would happen when Muller testified and clearly for a lot of Democrats so it was not what they anticipated no witnesses are hard to read an advance how they're going to appear and there's no telling how some of these witnesses who do to have great credibility might be in front of the television camera we just don't know but I think the education process that public television or public viewing of the hearings will provide is really essential this just can't go too far in being transparent and and the committee really educating the American people about the seriousness of what's going on here the fact that one the I was the ambassador testimony where she said that the State Department is being attacked and hollowed out from inside is just a chilling really line when you hear it and you read it and John Dean thank you very much David Gergen carry Cordeiro appreciate it up next together here from a member of the House Intelligence Committee listened to a great deal of testimony that we've in discussing remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash CNN on Saturday November Ninth Jon Moxley versus Kenny Omega Kobe versus Chris Jericho for the e W World Championship League league wrestling presents full by now on the our live briefly recapping breaking news house impeachment investigators today released lengthy transcripts inscription to interviews conducted behind closed doors last month those a former US ambassador of Ukraine Maria Ivanovich and State Department senior adviser Michael Mckinley both both testified they were deeply concerned about domestic political interference in US diplomacy with Ukraine now this has all four high level White House officials who were scheduled to testified today didn't show up one of the members of the House Intelligence Committee who sat in on much of the testimony we're learning about today's Democrat Val demings of Florida I spoke with her her shortly before airtime congresswoman demings of all the concerning details in these released transcripts I'm wondering what stands out to you the most well Anderson thing that really a couple of things stand out to me the most number one it is just I think appalling that the president president of the United States and his enablers would totally try to impugn the good reputation of ambassador Ivanovich because they did not want her to be a part of their basically shady operation that they were doing in Ukraine and the other thing that really I think is very disheartening is when an ambassador McKinley expressed his concern about the Department Department of State Secretary Palmdale not having the backs of foreign service officers when he complained about the morale being low the men and women feeling like they did not have the support of the Department of State that he received no response and when he received no response from the secretary he felt like no no response was a response and he felt like he could no longer be of service in his current capacity and so because of the shady operation that that was going on involving the president and those around him I think to good career service foreign service employees were basically displaced or left the State Department chairmanship today said that the House committees aren't going to delay their work and wait for the court board to decide about testimonies like of AIDS like Charles Kupperman and perhaps even John Bolton why do you think this needs to be done or do you think this needs to be done at a rapid pace awesome and understand the political calculation of with the upcoming election in this kind of sucking the oxygen out of that but you're a former law enforcement official isn't there something to be said for getting as much evidence avenues you possibly can we'll certainly there is and from the beginning we said that we wanted to do a very methodical very thorough but also very timely family investigation I believe a lot has happened over the last month and a half of finally we've had persons who were either associated with with the administration or with the Department of State and others who were willing to obey aloft subpoena and come in and give testimony I I certainly believe that we are making every effort to get every bit of information and and testimony that we can in this investigation but as chairman shifts shift said the day Anderson we are moving forward and we will consider those who the president is structure not to appear who chose to follow follow that unlawful order as another article of impeachment you're using there should be more than than one article impeachment well it certainly seems like the president and is on a roll and I would think that is all all that is going on with him we know now that the president abused his power by trying to get a foreign country to interfere in the twenty twenty election. We know that person's were directed directed to remove the call record of the President's July twenty fifth call onto a secret server we know that the president that has instructed several people to not appear and cooperate with Congress and so I do believe that the president is really the the the evidence is really clear convincing and really pretty overwhelming your Republican colleague Congressman Jim Jordan said the Democrats quote Cherry pick which transcripts scripts they release in when what is the determining what's determining the order in which transcripts are getting released. Well I mean if you think about it embassador and ambassador McKinley were two of the first ones that were interviewed by the Intelligence Committee and look I know the Republicans are struggling to defend that which is indefensible but you know I was glad to see these transcripts being released so that the American people could see exactly what the ambassador said during their testimony I- Volker went before but But I I hear you on on Jim Jordan's point the there's reporting tied also that as the inquiry moves into the public phase Republicans are considering actually moving congressman Jordan over the House Intelligence Committee deemed up say smart move on their Anderson I came to Congress with twenty seven years of law enforcement experience I've conducted numerous investigations I have always been in search of the truth if Congressman Jordan is interested in joining me in that effort of I welcome to the committee curse woman demings appreciate your time thank you very much thank you for potential impeachment is not the only battle the White House is fighting of next how American just got one step closer to possibly seeing the president's tax returns as soon as next month we'll look at the last ditch effort to keep them private that's the end of the morning it's the dragon experiment are you GonNa say it first off I always sleigh queen secondly yes brick and mortar five episodes premiering Sunday November ten only on adult swim hey it's Howard Beck and I've got Chicago Bulls Insider Casey Johnson on bleacher reports the full forty eight for nineteen year old kid he's to me way past were I thought he would be so I'm buying all the Kobe white stock right now the full forty eight is is available each week on the bleacher report and you can subscribe for free at Apple podcasts tonight the battle of releasing prisoners from tax returns appears headed for the Supreme Court that's the vow from one of the president's attorneys after Losing Appeals Court Decision Manhattan District Attorney is hoping to succeed where House Democrats have not the prosecutor is demanding eight years returns from the president's longtime accounting firm the trump legal team argued that the president is immune from criminal criminal investigations while in office but the Appeals Court says that doesn't block the enforcement of a grand jury subpoena now if the Supreme Court takes up the matter justices could issue opinion before Christmas investigative reporter David Johnson is one of the very few to uncover any of the president's tax returns he's the author of the making of Donald Trump. He joins me along with CNN legal analyst Sean Woo David if this decision stands ends you say the prison from could have a serious problem once eight Manhattan injury gets the tax documents what do you believe that they could show well donald loss to income tax fraud trials and in one of those trials the tax return introduced in the case this was shown to his longtime now retired a tax prepare Jack Mitnick who testified that that was his signature on the document but he did not dot prepare that tax return donald has a long history of a filing inconsistent documents with different government agencies Sivan's grand jury he has access to The New York State Tax Authority records and I suspect they're going to compare them to the mazars records to see if trump altered the tax tax returns filed which would be fraud in all likelihood shown Jaysekulow the president's J. Secular President Attorney says that the issue raised he's in this case goes to the heart of our republic and that the the constitutional issues are significant as you right there I think is wrong Anderson I've certainly in the president's mind these are dear to the Republic his republic the Supreme Court unlike any other courts has the discretion over what they will take and the issue a written written answers to those cases that they believe are important enough to hear they're not going to do that here is my guest you don't you don't think this court will take this case I don't think take it and the reason for that is because these are actions which was laid out in the Court of Appeals decision these are actions that predate the president becoming the president so he wants to argue absolute immunity executive privilege but none of those apply because this wasn't something the undertook for his job as presidency executive privilege judge and important privilege is meant to give the president the benefit of confidential advice to run the country running the trump business is not the same as running the country even though he may think so so it's just not going to be applicable here so if they didn't take it then the ruling by this judge and the appeals court that that stands and the tax returns released east that's exactly right and the the court often does that they'll let a lower court decisions Dan because Supreme Court justices liked to think of themselves as being minimalists the only we wanna take those cases that they think are really essential for the country to take and when they can they'll duck the issue because they don't Wanna reach out and decide things unnecessarily so I think here they're gonna to say thanks but no thanks David the thing is I mean ever by the president to hide the contents of his tax returns they've been going on for decades and he's largely been successful and keeping them under wraps hasn't he he's been quite successful other than the two thousand and five of few pages that I got in the nineteen ninety-five state returns the New York Time Scott but we won't see these returns they'll be turned over under grand jury rules that are secret if there is an indictment or a civil lawsuit brought by side live ants then will I see specifics that are alleged as part of a crime and then as the case goes forward will see the returns put into the record I am trump has ten days under an agreement with Sivan's to appeal to the Supreme Court so that'll get resolved quickly so we should know within ten today's while he has ten days within which to seek the appeal I'm not sure how fast defile the I'm not sure how fast the court will decide on I say and and how how long does the the court sometimes take to decide whether they'll look at a case or not They usually move relatively quickly I mean normally they would look to the next term so I would expect them to turn around relatively quickly it's a little hard to predict but I think they'll expedite it's fascinating Shannon Agreement Anderson is the agreement Anderson is this term it'll be this trump right all right David Johnson Fascinating Shehu thanks so much appreciate it tonight the president is still actively trying to unmask the Ukraine call whistle blower who's protected affected by the law my next guest knows firsthand what it's like to have your cover blown her name was leaked in a different ministration former CIA operative Valerie Plame on the consequences consequences of the president's unlawful request ahead hey everyone a brand new boss files episode what is out it is our one hundredth episode and we are so excited to continue sharing these inspiring conversations with you on our cats I sat down with former Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd blankfein citizen by CNN conference live event with newsmakers across industries talk about critical issues this story is fascinating lean being born in public housing in Brooklyn making it to Harvard by Age Sixteen and then making millions on Wall Street so he knows both sides of the proverbial trap I asked him what he thinks of Bernie Sanders statement that billionaire should not exist in America he also told me he's open to the rich pay more in taxes axis and says capitalism is not dead but it must be more fair to check it out today at subscribe to boss ooh stays on. TNT says all wrestling hits harder flies higher and breaks breaks off Boundary Holy Leslie a new League Wednesdays at eight on TNT despite numerous administration Australian officials corroborating what the Ukraine whistle blower warned about despite the president's own on camera calls for election interference from Ukraine and China and despite the transcript that he released the backs up much of the whistle blowers account president trump is still trying to blow the whistle blowers cover the latest from a few hours ago I think that the whistleblower gave a lot of false information and you have to see who the whistle blower is the whistle blowing seems to have disappeared well he just another attack back at his rally tonight or minor this whistleblowers anonymity is protected by law when to bring in former CIA operative Valerie Plame who's had a valuable perspective on this her cover ever was blown in the Bush administration after husband blew the whistle on the rationale for going to war with Iraq she's not running for Congress Democrat in New Mexico. Valerie thanks for being with with US I just based on your own experience you obviously have a unique vantage point on this a how important is it that the whistle blowers identity remained secret not only for that person but for any

president Anderson Cooper ambassador McKinley Ukraine White House CNN Kentucky Donald Trump Adam Schiff George US Valerie Plame Congress Marie Ivanovich Congressman Jim Jordan Supreme Court Obama CIA House Intelligence Committee
Return of the Repressed

Trumpcast

43:45 min | 2 years ago

Return of the Repressed

"And I think too that I could say that in my years of public life that I welcome this kind of examination because people have gotta know whether or not their president's crop. Well, I'm not a crook. I burned everything I've got. Don doubt, he resigned as the president's lawyer was very worried still not because he thinks that Donald Trump has client will be charged with a crime fears that going into an interview is unwise for the president will again, John there has been no collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian Trump and Russians no collusion. Bottom line. They all say, there's no collusion. And there is no collusion been determined that there is no collusion when they have. No collusion. Nobody's found any collusion. I can only say this. There was absolutely no collusion. Hello and welcome to Trump cast. I'm Virginia Heffernan Trump cast as the show about the man who sex and is a racist. Okay. My tribute to Jake waste breaks fun intro is kind of thin these days because Trump is just become deeply not fun lately. So today we're talking impeachment. But not oh, it's imminent, and he's going to hashtag die in jail, but a more measured conversation with everybody's favorite impeachment defense attorney Ross Garber now, I know we usually stick with the prosecutors on Trump cast, but let me say a word in defense of the defense. Trump's impeachment defense lawyer is not Rudolph Guiliani his lawyer right now as Emmett t flood Giuliani is a Carney showman. Flood is a Solomonic man of the law. And here's why a lawyer who defends public officials during impeachments. Like, my guest Ross Garber or like MIT flood is not a rich and flashy. Private attorney to the manpower someone paid to get him exonerated and peach mint lawyer considers his client not the president, but the office of the presidency and impeachment lawyer is paid as a government employee, meaning not well and also meaning he works for us concerned citizens voters. Why would we want this White House to have even one defender will because all concerned citizens have a stake in the stability of our government, which includes yes, the executive branch if we burn down the White House and trying to burn up the president for his crimes or his policies. It's the American people who in the long-term pay the price. Now, the occasion for today's show is the unsealing of a document not about Trump. But about another Republican president who ran into a special prosecutor, Richard Nixon the nineteenth. Seventy four document recently unsealed is generally called a roadmap. And it's not a narrative, it's a measure tally of the evidence in the Watergate investigation, which at that time was overseeing by Leon Jawara sqi as a roadmap this document as both the Washington Post and Fox News agree might be a template for Robert Mueller, the special prosecutor if he were to submit a report to the judiciary to the congress or to the public jor skis roadmap, which is technically authored by the Watergate grand jury who are recommending indictment of Nixon can be read online for Watergate and presidential prosecution, baths and acute analysis can be found on the law. Fair blog by Trump cast friends Benjamin witness and jackals Smith their links to that in the show notes. But I want to give you just one pro sample from the roadmap before we get to Ross Garber. It's just the list of evidentiary exhibits submitted to the House Judiciary. So here's. One sample one honor about March sixteenth nineteen Seventy-three e Howard hunt. He Howard hunt had a meeting with Paulo Brian during which hunt demanded approximately one hundred twenty thousand dollars an Astro Brian to tell John dean that hunt had done some seamy things for the White House and for John Airlec men. And that if hunt we're not paid soon hunt would have to quote review his options. No aditorial, no kind of wincing at the name Howard hunt. Just the facts submitted to the House Judiciary committee. And we know what that committee decided joining me on the line is Ross Garber CNN analyst and professor of political investigations and impeachment law at to land law school, the New York Times calls him, arguably the nation's leading impeachment lawyer, I won't argue with that one welcome Ross great to be here. So as you know, we have mostly process. Cures on Trump cast everybody likes a little prosecutorial overreach. When we're talking about Donald Trump and speculation. I don't hold it against you. But you are the rare thing in fact, the potentially unique thing where you've made your career as the nation's leading peach -ment defense lawyer, let's just summarize what possibly means. I mean, are you like someone who works you've been someone who works like once in a blue moon because they're not impeachments every day. Yeah. No, that's true. In fact, impeachments are incredibly rare. I mean, as you know, we've never removed a president. He's only head would teach the president's in in the entire US history. The last one being Clayton and also you didn't teach on the state revel are wear. I mean, they're only been seen governors impeached and only nine moved. But actually have been impeachment proceedings of governors since Quinton there in a few of them, and I am usually essentially in those cases, I usually represent the governors and the offices of the governor of defending impeach. How do you stake yourself in that? Because I get the prosecutor the Ken Starr types, the Robert Muller types, sort of licking their chops for rogue presidents or governors, but you've told me that you are very staked in the office that it is it is quite dangerous to remove willy nilly a governor much less president. Yeah. And that's exactly right. So I represent the institutional interests of the office, which are sometimes different than the interest of the individual the individuals getting impeached wants to keep their physician wants to keep their reputation. The office of the person's being impeached has sort of separate state in the Wayne teach minutes work, are it's really a legislative branch. And in the case of presidents were governor kind of the executive branch hunters to the powers of the legislature, congress versus the powers of the presidency. And so in those situations I represent the interests of the executive branch, and it raises a whole host of issues like, you know, executive privilege, like attorney client privilege for public officials separation. And bounds of powers, you know, even what impeachment proceedings procedures are because the constitution doesn't, you know, other than saying how representatives has jurisdictions impeach and the Senate as her six to to try the really isn't that much about the procedure. So all of those things matter not just sitting jewel, but also to the institution, and that's what I. So I wanna talk a little bit about the are to modern era impeachments or moves toward presidential impeachment. One of them is courses Clinton who you mentioned and the other one is Richard Nixon. So Nixon is in the news today again because the report of Leon Jawara ski the special prosecutor in that case. So that the Muller of Nixon times the report that he more or less authored the report that's been under seal since nineteen seventy four was unsealed this month and then surfaced yesterday, and it isn't very interesting piece of rhetoric I've been poring over it. And I think you have to people refer to it colloquially. Not as the Jewish ski report like the star report that could be circulated and become a bestseller. But rather the roadmap, and there's something as Ben what is fair, and others pointed out, very spare about it. What did you make of it? Yeah. I it's incredibly fair. And and yeah, it's it's interesting reading for the substance, and and I also teach a class to lay off teachers and clinical investigation of the substance of it is interesting. But probably, you know, you're suggesting to me the tone of it is action more interesting because you don't have very many experiences with with impeachments there, isn't that much to go on who we have these two modern your own impeaching effort. She's got Watergate we've got question. And as as I'm sure some of your listeners remember in Quinton there was that stall afford. It was no massive piece of advocacy star and went to congress with all of this information and made strong arguments that the president, and then it crimes and should therefore being teach for them. And it was scandalous in in some of its its pros reading, someway Doncaster novel by contrast. This report is very very, you know, it's just the facts, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. No arguments, judgments, nothing like that. What's the use of doing that? Because it one of the things that the lesser guys point out is in a heated moment partisan moment like during the Clinton presidency. You can see why people like Ken Starr. And now Justice Brett cavenaugh moment of silence. Took this took this hacky Fox News potboiler tone to the star report. We're we're a customs now two people talking like that. I mean, Ken Starr for his sins like sparked this particular way of talking. That's so polemical still much torque on it. So many pro details you can see how weird stuff like PetO gate almost grows out of the heavy breathing tone of the star report. What was -ffective about that? It's certainly riled people up and added fuel to the fire of now are you know, what of become our current straits in our divided country. Yeah report like that is dropped on congress and puts congress in this position where it's so explosive and so detailed and the media understandably reports on it. And and talk about what it says. It's kinda she's weird position where it's hard. It's hard not to impeach in. Just a second as you. And I talked about for janea for star is actually a statute that required. Him to bring any credible information supporting impeachment to congress four Joe wars in Watergate, and now from Muller there is no statue by that. There was no provision for divorce. The and there's no provision for mower take what he has. And and bring it to congress. And in fact, that's not how this just generally works usually prosecutors in grand juries and designate crimes, and then they end up in if there's an indictment and that. I'm public. If there's not the whole thing goes away soon as notion of first place of having prosecutors in grand juries doing investigation, and then transmit the results to the legislative branch of government, really stored. And Joe Worsley for was the first one to think about and have to think about whether to do that. And then how to do it? So before this provision that allowed can start a issue this report and make it public things were very or at least your ski made the decision to play his cards close to his chest. And allow the grand jury to author its own document this roadmap and then present it to congress for their decisions. We know in retrospect, the ground grand jury some of them wanted to indict they thought indictment was the proper move. How did your ski sort of massage? This thing. To make this much cleaner. Minimum or minimalist document and get the grand jury put their name on it. Yeah. I get your ski a lot of credits used to worst us done this investigation. He's found what he believes to be cries. With the president of the United States is committed and some of his prosecutors pregnant committing crimes you have in in your right? The report is that some of the grand jury said, yeah, these crimes you have to indict the president for crimes worse, maybe decision that the president couldn't be indicting. You know, these instruction justifies, the president couldn't couldn't be indicted here. He was sitting on this pile of evidence, president hosted crimes, and meanwhile, you know, across town Congress's doing impeaching investigation. And they don't have this information and said you wore ski had to figure out what to do. And he came up with this idea of transmitting the information to college getting the list, and then the question became all. Right. So what does that taste, and he decided that they that it should not be that? Because she but the decision whether it's crazy that was left to congress. But that what he could do this provide the information sitting on. And so. Evidentiary exhibits. I mean, it's yeah. Yes. So he ident- identified a bunch a bunch of information. You thought supported the indictment of the president all that stuff out of all the of all the information. Grand jury collected know, he labeled it all exhibits, and then he prepared this summary, which is referred to as the rope. Which again, just you know, back back back identify sort. Explain what zits are, and what do you do you find do you see any some on the scale in this door ski pros? I mean, if you're going guess does he think this is so exculpatory that there might be an indictment here? I mean, sometimes the facts just spell out the extent of the crime. My bias the way I look at things is the more you yell and scream and Jaji less. I think you have their quiet more quietly talk in the more you just rely on fat more compelling. I think it is. And I think that we sort of my lead of what your worst you. You know, put together in this roadmap comes across to me because of its status as a very compelling piece. I'll be subtle of advocacy that the president had engaged in improper and otherwise criminal Honda. This is brought to you by Amazon studios. Beautiful boy coming to theaters this fall based on the claim memoirs of father and son, David Nick, chef beautiful boy is a powerful and emotional look into the lives of a father and son as they journey through parenting. An adolescent this heartbreaking and inspiring experience of survival relapse and recovery feature. Steve Carell and Timothy Charlemagne who shine their respective roles with deep and genuine onscreen chemistry. The rap affirms Carell is a marvelously sensitive largely quiet tour divorce and the playlist claims shallow may finds the emotional core of this character and hangs onto it for dear life variety says every last thing the movie shows us is entirely authentic from the award winning producers of twelve years of slave and moonlight beautiful. Boy, his select theaters Tober twelve and nationwide. November ninth rated r. What stands out to you the secret payments? What are what are the things in in the list of exhibits that stand out to you as a specially devastating? It all looks very ugly. But but one of the things that I've I've always spayed paid special attention to is the role of warriors in these types of issues. And when you think about it, it's an it's not a great history. One could argue that but other than Richard Nixon, John gene was perhaps the person most responsible for water day because he was the White House counsel. He was the one who could have actually should have stopped it. And so one of the things I find very interesting about this roadmap is it does sort of both through the interactions between the president and John in touch on John dean's role, and in the Watergate scandal, and how Clinton have sort of used John, gene? Is. Yeah. Well, say a little more about that. Because naturally, you're going to be looking to for the the government side or the executive ramp side lawyers. John dean's the White House counsel. He is supposed to be representing the crescent city and the president brings in and the president's people bring him in and essentially have him straight part of the cover up, and then the president's sort of price to make John's part of the cover story by having John dean, you a an investigation report kind of clearing the president, you know, all this. And you know, the notion that he White House counsel is involved conspiracy to cover up crimes extrordinary. And and I think, you know, the road touches on on on some of these actions, you know, part of. Theme. I think of this particular show is the return of the repressed we've had probably more talk about Watergate since the seventies. Now, it seems to be haunting us more than ever partly because some precedents were set and partly because it ended in the resignation of the president. Which is it seems that some of us dearly hope for but one is weird things is that figures, including actual John dean are opining about the current president. I mean, you must as like as an aspiring young law students thinking toward political investigations and appeasement law kind of wished that you have daily conversations with John dean, do you to ever mix it up on Twitter at do you? Do you go over some of these details? I mean, am I alone in finding this totally fascinating time. Sometimes there's a collision on Twitter that I just that. I can't. Leave John dean started following the. I mean, I was a child, and he was like a I don't know. He was he was you know, in some pantheon of thinking about Nixon times, and and there he is tweeting. Yeah, I'm surprised that I haven't run into each other, you know, given circles traveling off. So you know, we are both CNN CNN at some point. I do hope to be able to talk to him. I read his autobiography, yes, you know, when when I was in law school, and any you know, any of your listeners government lawyers. I can't recommend it highly enough it it's very very very good in that it talks about the perils of getting into situations that just not prepared for and making sort of a weak decision usually decision, and the consequences can have it's called blind and vision, I recommended highly. But then after doing this work people started giving copies. Book. And now, I probably give that book away. Then you've been any of every time. I see him on TV or elsewhere. I had this reaction of on the one hand. It is interesting what he has to say on the other hand, he's the poster child prime not. So what is the poster child for how not to do that job? How not some officials how not to be official and since perspective is kind of interesting to me. He reminds me a little bit of just the moral agony. That is expressed by these anonymous senior government officials who are always again who spouted off in Bob Woodward's book, or who you know, wrote the up Ed in the times in that's gotten a little bit loss. But it is really crazy that you know, it seems like there's a crew of John dean style officials that Trump his lost interest in but are still around him. In trying to kind of wrestle him to the ground and also leaking unless the impression of all these individuals in a moral situation that no human has found themselves in at these high levels with the president who seems manifestly unfit according to buy their definitions and in public, and then where it also seems to have policy implications and also an implication for the judiciary. And I mean, you know, when you wonder how Leon to ski make his decisions how to John D And make decisions they had to wing it. You know, it's it's something about the rare -ness of impeachments that seems to put a lot of stress on these individuals because the institutions are just not there, you reach for them to tell you what to do and you're dealing with provisions, statutes and customs and norms. But nothing that that let's this v. Nation of laws and not men in the moment. Well, that's that winds up being the biggest issue because I, you know, all of the things you identified are sort of new radical. But what what's also their real world is ego. You know, people get into these physicians. They had those. Goes often back. It's away when I've studied, you know, all these prior insurance and lots of occasions, I am not just impeachments. But I know how to do a lot of people cases, you know, it's often egos. That's 'cause you know, significant problems, and I use wonder with John dean, whether if he had said to Nixon, hey, Mr President, you know, what? No, this is not Oakley cannot do this. When it actually could have put a stop to a lot of. I think this is, you know, there is a chance that that he could every day, and you know, government all over the place. You've got visory who are in truth pout. I'm sure it's happening in the Trump administration. You know, we we know things that we've seen the perhaps disagreed with. They are bad. We don't see situations where advise you say, hey, you know, what Mr President? You can't do that can't happen. Yeah. And the president listened to him. Yeah. I mean more often they seem to be sort of like Rudolph Giuliani pit bulls for the egos of their client they amplify it. They go. I think Giuliani's recently been in Ukraine. I don't know if he's generating support or making money for the president or just doing some of his consultant gigs, but that doesn't look good. And that that leads me to question about the difference between a Giuliani whose very much representing Trump in the media. I mean, he's almost like flack for you know, PR person for him as much as a lawyer. And then someone we've talked about before in very at. I'm very interesting Amit flood who stays completely out of the spotlight. I think some people even forget that he took over for for Tyco as as Trump's as doing Trump's impeachment defense. He's worked on impeachments before tell me about the difference between their two roles because flood strikes me as a principled. Lawyer he's quite accomplished area guy who has a great stake in the executive branch, and in peaceful and orderly preservation of every branch of government where Giuliani seems to be doing his best to fan the flames of Trumpism and create distractions and so forth. So what are there to roles because I think people see them both as Trump's lawyers, and they seem to be to me doing very different things. They they have different jobs, and, you know, at the beginning, we talked about sort of my usual role representing institutions as sting from representing the individual. That's a play here too. So, you know, Guiliani he represents Trump personally, you know, he's as you can see from jobs, if he us talking about from, you know, political standing and its position and all of that was representing Trump personally on the other hand, you have them at flood who right now, essentially. Acting White House counsel when he takes over. That's right. Yes. And his his job is to represent an institution of the presidency and flood is different than John. Dean John dean, Dev into the office. He wasn't prepared for what he was getting into. And it's what the very smart guy experience works on the on the Clinton impeachment. And he he has done a lot of thinking about these kinds of issues. And so he will he will be there to represent and Jackie branch. And you know, which is not to say that, you know, you'll you'll always agree with him probably Hiver because you know, particularly things impeachment really is a clash between the executive branch and the legislative branch and sort of a puzzle for power. Yeah. I would accept 'em. It floods. It's a lower profile certainly than moody Giuliani and also. So. Sort of thoughtful and principal in a coach. I just want to put in a small plug for the liberal arts because flood and this always interests me has a PHD in. I think philosophy. He had a Mellon foundation fellowship and other seems far afield his colloquium was called some uses of narrative and the history of philosophy synoptic, judgment and philosophical plot. And if anyone thinks that's relevant. I think it bears on his job in two ways. One of them is this is philosophically very difficult for people in in John dean's book, you see a man wrestling with moral questions who may have made some bad decisions. You see this also in Jim comas book, a higher loyalty that you know, it they're very earnest reflections on what's right? What is right in their roles and. How can they put aside ego and short term gains and a desire for to be visible and to stay relevant. How can they put those aside so philosophy as a pretty good background for someone like Amit flood, then the other part of this is and this gets us both to the Nixon roadmap. And also the Muller would be Muller report some uses of narrative in the history of philosophy. So he's talking about philosophical plot. Both of these documents three documents, the hypothetical Muller report, the jor sqi report the roadmap, and then and then in the middle of the star report all of them are in some sense narrative documents meant to inform decisions about the most important question of our time is off the president to be president be removed or have his authority impeached. So he can be removed. And that is I think does get us into the rhetoric of these documents. What do you think any kind of Mullah report? Might look like. Obviously, it's all speculative. But the thing I think is interesting about, but I would be shocked if Mullah report looks anything like a report, if we see something from Muller, I think it will be more sort of just the fast, and in one of the things that I've I've thought of bunch about and find it fascinating is how something like that will play in this Europe of such inflames over the top rhetoric, which in many cases of politics is in fact, based at all, and I think if I were representing the president, it's one of the things I would be very concerned about is that whether it's a mower port on whether you know, it's, you know, in next indictments or something like that it is very likely to be. Both factual and then supported by ovens, which in the end is likely to be I think. Still even today. Much more compelling than than sort of hollow rhetoric. But you know, we'll be interesting to see how that have that all play out. What kind of defense might flood the currently mounting. I know you were a little bit in touch with Tuykov. I don't know how explicit the conversation was but what kind of defense might he be mounting now. And what might he be preparing for in the form of some kind of Muller report? I would expect 'em flood is looking at the Marion issues of executive power that that may come up from executive cribbage to the waiver of executive privilege to pardon power to interesting. We're talking about the road. Now, Nixon didn't of jet to the road messing transmitted by the court to congress. I would expect the current president to jet that kind of transmission because normally that's not how and under the wolves. That's not what a grand jury does. Those are some of the issues that that I would expect what is is looking closely. The procedural ISM of Nixon times really is astonishing to see even Nixon's deference to institutions and precedent. So, you know, some people say he would've didn't deny deny deny. He didn't do the Trump moves or even he didn't express. Well, yes. I mean, France. Yes. The the vilification say of jar in the press didn't happen. It's hard to imagine Nixon for all his penchant for dirty tricks sitting some kind of Jacob ball figure to try to claim that Leon Joe our ski, you know, had me to problems like it looks like Jacob Wallin some other tricksters done with Muller. The FBI now investigating that. I mean, these are these crazy distractions that for all we think of Watergate as tormented time. It is pretty amazing. How? Professional everyone ends up acting. Yeah. You know, Nixon was a Nixon was a career politician. I and he'd been governor vice president he he was very invested in Touche's governments. And yes, you push the envelope in and push the on the envelope, but he sort of operated within sort of stabbed concepts of those institutions of government. Yeah. I mean, they're offensive didn't do he had advisors including tacky, Ken, how many urging the burn water case even court said he had to turn them over. He do that he's sort of size, and and kinda put it we took instigated way. What his future was legacy, and what it would be institutions of government if you took serve nations'. And ultimately he made the calculation to not try to withstand Senate trial because he was getting. And instead probably for everything just resigned. Again, we are living in a different era. Now, where I think a lot of us have seen some political figures should of push half, the I'll open, and and other political figures sort of shrug on so this this could be like, we will be very interesting time is so is certainly some of us live in those times. And and, but there is a sense that there are people like you possibly Emmett flood possibly Robert Muller who are at least mindful of other Norman, and and regulations and also. What decisions we make? Now. What consequences they might have for for the fabric of our of our government in the future. So this is where I wanna return to. I just wanna be sure listeners really understand that you as an impeachment lawyer your client is the office of of the president's here governor and your investment is in the stability of the executive branch. So I don't know if you can tell that, I'm teeing up a question that I think I've asked you before and seems to sound far fetched to most people, but is it possible that someone like flood with his his PHD in philosophy that he might want to defend the executive branch against the current head of it defend the White House against Donald Trump. It's a challenge that sometimes government lawyers. Have they have a responsibility. To Papa people. They swearing host the whole the past to Shen sometimes it is the case that their principal person who's representing their client in this case. It would be that the president is in their opinion doing something that Tosh rating of the public country to Shen and that puts the lawyer in very challenging five where there are potentially two options. One Chris Wade, your clients do the right thing. And and honestly, that's what usually happens if a lawyer is done, his or her homework and has the courage. To treat the power. Usually that was what happens if they're able to convince the client the other alternative is to resign. And that is a real alternative. But it's it's also on this. It's it's not one that I've ever had to to fully Chuck under will what's that for the for the lawyer to to resign like Jill like Dowd Cobb? Yeah. Yeah. And and and you know, what commenting on on whether that was the reason why those guys resigned. But yeah, if you got a client, he's not just doing something with which you disagree. But doing something that you believe is on lawful improper, then the lawyers position where Hugh she has to say I can't facilitated by the way, it's bring your stuff that again. That's Johnny should have done in. Watergate did. Robert muller. So we have the voice of Robert Muller, not on CNN or FOX or MSNBC. But only in the indictments that that he's issued especially the one signed that he alone signs. The IRA indictments grew indictments. What do you make of his reticence? What do you make of his style? What do you make of it as a as a prosecution as what's looks like collectively in the Dighton? It's a prosecution. I'm not sure there's another word I've been impressive. When I think adequately sums, you know. And and I look not just on what's in the indictments. But also, what's not either any moments or out in public? I don't think I seem a an investigation across Futian has leaked less or grants. Chanted less. The restraint has has been amazing and compare it to even sort of, you know, where your political investigations and prosecutions normally would you'll have or you know, leaks throughout the investigation. And so that the precious full of the, you know, coming out of the government. And then when they were diamonds, you'll see the, you know, the big press conference where the prosecutor is they're telling the narrative story, very judgmental turfs. Contrast that here, you know, she know weeks coming out of Muller. In fact, I what we've been surprised about is that we were surprised when you're indictments and the lightning. That are not in send Yeary in their rhetoric. And then you see crush times it shows where it's not Muller, but it's rod Rosenstein, standing up and. Again, kind of giving just. And then nothing not taking questions and walking off. It's what prosecutors supposed to do is make their cases and crude them or not in court. It helps when they're not running for the a at the time. Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if Muller has to has to hold back some of his more public history on across accusers in the office. You know, we certainly got the blow by blow on an Enron and other cases that that Andre isn Weisman have prosecuted mob prosecutions. It really is interesting to have these two types of competing, philosophies Muller and Weisman, maybe maybe you know, you and Giuliani or flood and Giuliani. If people wanna play the press and the public versus people whose his faith in institutions stands. We've had Elliott. I wanna let you go. But we've had Elliott Hoenig on the show who is a former prosecutor he teaches at Rutgers. He says students are signing up in droves to be federal prosecutors, or at least very interested in what a prosecution looks like. And you know, I have to say we've certainly favored that prosecutorial voice on Trump cast now you teach investigations and impeachment Ludd at two lane. Are you seeing the same thing with with with people eager to conduct defenses against liberal investigations and Schmidt's? Yes. And no, I I see I I hear a pretty hard kind of cross Choi UIL, you know, gilpin in my to interesting. Yeah. And I try to, you know, tell them I try to play, you know, very straight and clash and make sure they also understand. Same thing. I try to do on CNN with you. You know, he both sides, you know, the prostate Joyal side. But then also the defense side because you know, often with prosecutors have them on their side are fats grievous facts, right often Waring's as as the fence for I'm often talking about processing procedure, which might be, you know, little bit less than telling sometimes. But I I think what's going to be most interesting about this upcoming chapter will be some of the processes and procedures. I think one of the places to look Knicks really will be what kind of battle happens over what the public decks to know about with Muller has has found out. I think that's what I do. That's fascinating fascinating. As what the public about it. Ross. I just wanna thank you one more time for sort of setting me straight on how the people and as concerned citizens ought to have a stake in in the executive branch, and in in the in the orders and procedures of government every bit as much as our politics, and our continued outrage at this president yours has been such a good. And I think unique voice in public conversation about this. And I'm just grateful to you. So thank you very much for being here again. No, I I love the podcast, and I'm happy to be on whenever. That's for today's show. So what did you think? I know you may have loved the ads if you listen to this on free slate, but imagine getting Trump cast and all your favorites late shows ad free. What a world that would be right. Well, it's possible. When you visit slate dot com slash Trump cast plus and sign up for membership, which has so many privileges. You won't believe it slate dot com slash Trump cast plus feel morally superior to your slate. Free friends our show today was produced by ACL does with help from Shirley Chan, and I'm Virginia Heffernan, thanks for listening to Trump cast.

president Richard Nixon executive Donald Trump Robert Muller John dean impeachments Trump prosecutor congress congress Giuliani CNN Clinton White House Ken Starr White House Virginia Heffernan ski President
Full Episode: Sunday, November 3, 2019

This Week with George Stephanopoulos

45:34 min | 1 year ago

Full Episode: Sunday, November 3, 2019

"This week with George Stephanopoulos starts right now historic volume what are we fighting for defending our democracy Komo one is above the law the house sets the rules on impeachment the American public all the evidence with party line vote this is a process that has has been fundamentally tainted process process process not one of them wants to talk about the president's conduct president trump now the fourth American president to face impeachment word impeachment it's been to me it's a dirty word public hearings the next big step will they sway public opinion and Republican senators what will it mean for everything else on Washington's agenda and the race for Twenty Twenty our guests the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee Eliot Engel and the number two Republican in the House Steve Scalise and one year from Election Day twenty twenty twenty is our time in history create a political movement it's time to decide let us make history history together the race in Iowa tied at the top Pete Buddha judge volt to the top tier and he joins us live from Iowa plus the latest results our brand new you poll and insight and analysis on our powerhouse roundtable with Chris Christie and rahm Emanuel we'll break down the politics smoke the spin the facts that matter this week from ABC News it's this week here now chief anchor George Stephanopoulos Good morning and welcome to this week election day exactly one year away and this morning our brand new poll with the Washington Post shows a top tier in the democratic race pulling away from the rest of the pack Joe Biden adding holds a lead at twenty eight percent followed by Elizabeth Warren at twenty three Bernie Sanders and seventeen and Pete Buddha judge pulling past Comma Harris for fourth place at nine percent Harrison the remaining candidates all now two percent or less among registered Democrats finding also maintains his edge who has the best chance to defeat trump at forty two percent he beats out the rest of the field by a wide margin but the race is still fluid just over half polled say they would consider another candidate and in the first caucus of Iowa Iowa New York Times poll shows a virtual tie at the top with Biden Sanders slumping warning Buddha judge surging the top four candidates now all within five points and in Showtime Interview Airing Tonight Mayor Pete is now suggesting that the races coming down to Elizabeth Warren and him I think this is getting to be a two way it's early to say I'm not saying it is into a but you see them you see coming into focus you and Warren Yeah and certainly a world where were getting somewhere is that world where it's coming down to the two of US and mayor. Buddha Jones joins US live from his bus in Iowa right now mayor thanks for joining us this morning two way race not yet no look there is a a a tremendous amount of energy for a range of candidates who are extremely capable I'm proud to be part of the most diverse Westfield I think ever in Democratic presidential politics and some formidable competition but what I will say is there's amazing energy behind our campaign right now we're seeing it on the ground here in Iowa we're seeing it pick up and a lot of places and I think voters are really narrowing down their choices and instead of just getting to know us now they're really making up their minds and we're getting a tremendous response sponsor for my message of bold changes that we can also get together around mytalk Anita's based on the idea and sorry you're talking about these contrast with Elizabeth Lord I want to get to Medicare for all which is a major contrast but the broader case what is the Big Difference Between You and Elizabeth Warren I I guess the biggest difference is I think we can deliver major meaningful bold change to move this country forward in a way that galvanizes an American majority instead of polarizing polarizing our country further look I'm running not just to defeat president trump and is gonNA take a lot to do that but also to be the president that first day the Sun comes up and Donald trump up is no longer in office really need a president who can pick up the pieces who can bring the country together and who who can do it while dealing with these major crises from climate climate to an economy that isn't working for everybody that haven't taken a vacation during the impeachment process that's going to take a president who can be bold and unifying and that's what I'm offering employees I'm offering a presidency where you can look at the White House and feel your blood pressure down instead of up we've got to find a way to come together and deliver bolt solutions at the same time on you have Sierra and Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders Medicare for all a proposal we did see senators senator warned detail her twenty trillion dollar proposal on Friday ready and respond to some of the criticism from you and Vice President Biden let's take a look Democrats are not GonNa win by repeating Republican public talking points and by dusting off the points of view of the giant insurance companies and the giant drug companies who don't want to see any change in the law that will bite into their profits making the arguments Republicans and insurance companies surcharge well the insurance companies are fighting my proposal because they don't want the competition what is just not true is that hers is the only Solution Lucien this my way or the highway idea that either you're for kicking everybody off their private plans in four years or your business as usual it's just not true I'm proposing using Medicare for all who want it now we do that that's the biggest change in American healthcare in fifty years the difference is the way I would do it you get to keep your private plan if you want onto I trust you to make that decision you used to be for broader Medicare for all you didn't qualify it at any way is your main arguments against Medicare for all now that it can't get tasked with it won't work look I think it could very well be the long run destination but there's gotta be some humility in our policy here let's put this out there and see if it's really the best plan for everybody I think it will be the best plan but I'm not willing to assume that it is the right plan for you out of Washington and order you to take it whether you want to or not if it's the right plan then everybody will move to it until it is the single player pair and if it's not the right plan for everybody then we're glad we didn't kick some Americans off their private plants I'm thinking for example but a lot of union members who fought negotiated for good plans as they have today they don't WanNa have to abandon those plans because Washington tells them they must do that in four years or less it doesn't make sense in the most important thing is we can get get to universal healthcare coverage without putting America through all of that without kicking people off their private plans without disagreements to the tune of ten or fifteen trillion dollars over how much this is gonNa cost which is equivalent to the entire GDP of the country We have a plan that is affordable has paid for and that allows you to choose instead of Washington for you and it's the boldest boldest thing we will have done to American healthcare in a Half Century Senator Warren points to credible kind of she says you supported President Obama's plans to say that the number she has do add up do you buy ah she can pay for her plan without raising taxes on the middle class that's what she says well the math is certainly controversial again they're variations in the estimates in the trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars and we don't have to go there in order to deliver healthcare to everybody my plan has a total cost stover ten years of one point five trillion dollars it can be fully paid for with a combination of rolling back the corporate trump tax cut rate cut and the savings were going to get from allowing Medicare to negotiate so it's paid for it works and it avoids these two major problems the math problem that I think the economists are arguing over this weekend and the problem of kicking Americans off their private plans but not everybody wants to go can you guarantee that a president Pete Buddha judge would and not raise taxes on the middle class everything that we have proposed to has been paid for and we have proposed no tax increase on the middle class. We don't I have to do it in order to deliver these healthcare solutions there is a lot of money on the table from loopholes in the corporate tax system from the wealthiest among us who could the end should pay more and we don't have to look to the middle class in order to solve these problems but it also means making sure that we make promises we can keep it's one of the reasons Why my vision on college college affordability is different making sure that it's free for low and middle income students yes but I don't think we have to pay all the way down to the last penny of tuition even for the children of millionaires cleaners and billionaires and by not going that far there's a saving so that we don't have to keep looking for other sources of taxes in order to pay for it in order to make sure that what we do is responsible we gotta make promises we can actually keep and we got to be willing to raise the revenue in order to do it and you know another thing that's really important right now is to look at the debt and look at the deficits I know that's not fashionable in the Democratic Party but Republicans have made it clear when they take power they don't actually care about that they've blown up a one trillion dollar deficit right now which means that if Democrats don't get into the business of paying attention to the debt nobody will simply my generation that's a real problem because I think these financial time bombs could very well go off if in my lifetime you say you say pay attention to death but if all your plans are implemented the debt and deficit is continue to go up as well so again you say pay attention to the debt and deficit episode of All your plans he put out there in the campaign trail are implemented debt and deficit is going to go up isn't it no everything that we have proposed will be neutral the budget or a savings to the budget we can do that as long as we're willing to make reasonable Moose for corporate taxes and wealthy individuals and make sure that we keep track Akkad promises that we're making I'm not GonNa make a twenty trillion dollar move on health care when we can do the same thing for a fraction of the cost the same thing on a lot of our other proposals you you have been rising in the polls putting yourself in the top tier but you're still lagging with African American voters can you win without them and how do you convince black voters to give you a shot I think the way to win a black voters or any voters is to deserve to win and My message is of making sure that this is a country where retire down systemic racism in all of its forms because I think that threatens the entire Republic the plan I've put forward the Douglas plan is as ambitious as the Marshall the plan rebuild Europe at this time right here at home and it's for the purpose of tearing down systemic racism and it's not about any one piece alone we gotta look at all of society where this might as well be two countries for so many Americans we gotta make sure that we're empowering black entrepreneurs that the federal government is doing its part purchasing to the tune of twenty five percent from businesses owned by people who've been historically excluded we gotta look at Health Home Ownership criminal justice we need a twenty-first-century voting rights act all of these things I have to go together and we get a fantastic response whenever I share the Douglas Plan whether it's with black audiences or majority white audiences because it's the most comprehensive vision in the twenty twenty cycle but my responsibility is to go out there and communicated so that nobody could be Could have any questions about what it is I seek to do your own focus groups have shown according to New York Times it was leaked to the New York Times is that being gay is a barrier with black voters and that New York Times poll showed also showed that fifty five percent of voters think it gets harder to support you because your game what can you do about that if anything I think the biggest question on any voters mind when they're sizing ising US candidates up and thinking about how they're gonNa vote is this how will my life be different if you're president versus one of your competitors that's the question we've got to answer and and when we have the best answer to that question I think a lot of prejudices and a lot of those other considerations fall away and it comes down to vision and results finally president trump up all returning to the general election had that ad in the World Series on Sunday night let's play president trump is changing Washington creating six million new josh five hundred thousand new manufacturing jobs cutting illegal immigration in half obliterating Isis he's no mister nice guy but sometimes it takes a donald the trump to change Washington a lot of democratic campaign veterans looked at that ad on Sunday said it's pretty effective how would you respond well it's trying trying to put a tough guy coating on a very weak individual somebody who is manipulated by Turkey into giving isis a new lease on life somebody who can't seem to make a decision and Dan stick to it and I'm ready to go toe to toe with this president he wants to talk about the economy let's talk about the GM workers and other workers that he has sold out he wants to talk about Isis let's talk about about how his terrible decision to betray our allies allowed Isis fighters to go free this president has been a failure even on its own terms even by the promises that that he made and I'm ready to have that fight to judge thanks for joining us this morning thanks revenue the first thing we have to do is get rid of Donald Trump get him out of office and once that happens the road is Clare First significant change now is the time the San Eh with the working families of our country and the outrageous level of greed and corruption fear and complacency does not win elections hope and courage wins election all the top Democrats Democrats took the stage at Friday's liberty and justice dinner in Iowa now that dinner has been a turning point Hillary Clinton was leading Barack Obama when he electrified that crowd back in two thousand seven and with Joe Biden is still the front runner in our latest national poll we asked need silver from five thirty eight to examine what pulls meant this far out since since we're one year away from the general election let's take a step back and ask how accurate are polls at this stage of the primary campaign does a candidate leading in polls now usually go on to win in their nomination by colleagues fivethirtyeight took us back in time and look at the polling in every competitive primaries since nineteen eighty there are fifteen of these in the person leading in the polls at this point in time when the nomination eight times are a bit more than half that includes both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump in two thousand sixteen plus some other obvious names Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighteen eighty Bob Dole and ninety six Al Gore in two thousand etc that also means there were seven upsets although some weren't big upsets technically speaking or example but Romney had fallen behind Herman Cain of all people in two thousand twelve but had been ahead in the polls for most of the race Obama in two thousand eight was not that big an upset either he was in a strong second place pulling at twenty two percent instead Obama's position was more like the one that Elizabeth Warren finds herself in now oh but there were other bigger upsets John Kerry was pulling it only nine percent at this point in two thousand four before eventually overtaking Howard Dean John McCain and only sixteen percent to Rudy Giuliani's thirty percent in two thousand eight and Bill Clinton had just six percent of the vote at this stage of Nineteen ninety-two one more thing we did not look at polls of the nineteen seventy six race since there weren't a ton napoles back then but Jimmy Carter clearly came from way way behind the low single digits based on the polls we were able to find which could be good news for Mayor Pete who is pulling it around seven percent he could still come back and win his nomination to unless you have partisan consensus impeachment is a divisive issue and country let many people would think it was being done for political wreath before you impeach somebody you have to persuade the American public is that has to happen you have to persuade enough of the opposite of the opposition party voters with trump voters the only thing worse than putting the country through the trauma of impeachment is putting the country through the trauma failed impeachment Democrats on the centers they had set for impeachment before we're joined now by the chairs the House Foreign Affairs Committee Democrat Eliot Engel Terminus to thank you for joining us this morning we saw that that party line vote this week so what changed why go forward in the absence of Republicans support well it's not a matter of Republican support what the president did I mean let's let's look what he's done no other president in American history done something like that he tried to essentially bribe a foreign power our to interfere in US elections on his side to go after one of his political opponents the Congress appropriated money for foreign aid for Ukraine and the the president illegally withheld that money and then threatened the Ukrainians by saying that illegally. Well I think it's it's illegal because why why would would you be allowed to just take that money and play with it as you as you as you please first of all the Ukraine the president was saying do us a favor to the president of Ukraine asking him to interfere and Mirror Joe Joe Biden and his son that's unprecedented it's never been done in American history before where you you essentially bribe a foreign power with money that's not the president's it's countries and you try to get him to come against your political question what will the outcome be and I want to show everybody what you said back in one thousand nine hundred eighty when Bill Clinton was being impeached no one believes leaves at the president will ultimately be removed from office so we will have dragged this country through a six month trial in the Senate and Bill Clinton will still remain president what good does that do they are we facing a similar situation right now well we're not first of all I like the way I look twenty years ago that was thank you for showing that look we we have a constitutional responsibility as members of Congress the President says the article two of the constitution allows them to do anything but congress this is there to to prevent the president from doing things that are illegal we are a co equal branch of government we member when you were kid and you learned about checks and balances throw it out the window the president thinks he can rule a fit so it's not a matter of will it be successful or whatever that's secondary the question you have to ask you did the president really sell out his country with a bribe to a foreign power to get involved in the president's residents personal political election that has never been done by any president in the history of this country as you know your Republican colleague has complained about the process you followed flowed so far including our next guest squeeze the number two Republican in that here's what he had to say on the House floor this week baby in the Soviet Union you do things like this we're only you make the rules where you reject the ability for the person you're accusing to even be in the room to question what's going on for anybody else to call witnesses when only one person has the right to call witnesses what kind of fairness is that it's pretty serious charge right well I don't think any Republicans can really electricity about the Soviet Union since president trump and Mr Putin our buddy buddies and Mr Putin and into the twenty sixteen election to help president trump so I I think when you when you look at that I think the Republicans of the last ones that that they they they don't feel they have their full due process rights they have the same due process rights that we've had in the Nixon and the Clinton impeachment they can we took depositions for several weeks they complaint complained about that this week we're releasing transcripts of all its positions and everything else is going to be be public they'll be there be public hearings will they will be public hearings very very soon this week we having the last of the witnesses come in and then it'll be released the transcripts will be released everything is transparent transparent the Republicans keep moving the goalposts they tell they tell us they want us to be transparent when we're transparent is not good enough the president will have we'll have every right all his protections there they can't complain about not having open hearings and then we have open hearings complained about that as well finally our new poll out the out this week shows that fifty percents of Americans disapprove how the Democrats are handling impeachment so far fifty percent say they think it's more about hurting president trump politically than defending the constitution. How do you convince the country that you're doing this in the right way for the right we will I think sometimes you have to do the right thing and not worry so much about the polls how's this is a president who who abuse a power who abused his office again who took money that was not his and try to use it so that it could influence his reelection and do dirt on his opponent? I don't think we can sit idly by and accepted that has never been done before and it's time we say stop stop the impeachment proceedings will will have the president will have do rights I he'll have the same rights that that Clinton and Nixon had and the Republicans look into moving goalposts because they can't defend the behavior MR chairman thanks for joining us this bank you we're joined now by the number two Republican in the House Stevescalise Carson thank you for joining us this morning you just heard Chairman Angle right there saying you all are moving the goal posts that president trump is gonNA have the same rights the President Clinton and President Nixon had once it gets to the Judiciary Committee we're Good Morning Georgia and there were a lot of things there that need to be unraveled first of all this is nothing like the Clinton and the Nixon impeachment both sides got to call witnesses assist under Clinton and under Nixon the president's legal counsel was in the room able to ask questions to the witnesses presents can have that right near the president is going to have that right once it gets to the judiciary committee well there's no guarantee of that in fact the resolution they passed in a very partisan way gives the chairman the full discretion to kick the president's legal counsel out of the room and to veto any witnesses that we would call that was in the resolution we had an amendment by the way George to change that they didn't accept any Republican amendments they didn't negotiate with the White House on that resolution under Clinton and Nixon There was a bipartisan negotiation. To at least have fair rules they don't want fair rules they just want to hurt but president trump's chances to win reelection it's all about reversing the results of the two thousand sixteen election there are no high crimes and misdemeanors you you just heard here in Sherman angles say it's all about the president's conduct and of course it issues the president president trump's attempts to get Ukraine to investigate his domestic political opponents his nominee for ambassador to Russia Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan was asked about that on Capitol Hill this week let's watch do you think it's ever appropriate for the President to use his office to solicit investigations into a domestic political opponent soliciting investigations in new domestic a political opponent I don't think that would be in accord with our values very clear statement right there from the deputy secretary of state that it's wrong for the president to solicit investigations domestic political opponents do you agree well first of all that's not what was happening on the phone call even when the president said will will you do me a favor he then went on to ask about crowd strike that wasn't about Joe Biden and so taking that out of combatants domestic political opponents in the transcript clearly shows the president was asking Ukrainian president to investigate his political opponents both the Democrats in two thousand Sixteen Joe Joe Biden going forward do you think that was appropriate that wasn't first of all about political opponents the Law George requires president trump or any president win win they're sending foreign aid taxpayer money to another country to I ensure that that country's rooting out corruption he ends Alinsky were talking about that on the phone call the Post Democrat he raised were crowd strike in two thousand sixteen involving the Democrats burris men two thousand seventeen eighteen involving Joe Biden and again it's just a very simple question do you think it's appropriate for the president to ask the Ukrainians or the Chinese which he's also done in public to investigate his domestic political opponents well first of all on that call he was not talking about the twenty twenty election or political opponents he was talking about corruption relating to the twenty six thousand election Asia Russia tried to interfere George Win Russia tried to interfere with our election it was Barack Obama who was president not Donald Trump president trump has illegal requirement to ensure ensure that the country given given foreign aid in this case Ukraine is taking steps to root out corruption and he and presidents Alinsky talked about that Zilinskiene fact was asked I did he think it was inappropriate was there pressure put on him in presidents Alinsky said he was not pressure ultimately pressure I asked about the the phone call and actually all the other testimony this come that's come out this week in the last couple of weeks from ambassador Taylor from Colonel Women from Viana Hill they all show a process where White House visit military aid was conditioned on the though Ukrainians pursuing an investigation but I asked the question even step yep removed from that is it okay for the president that's not accurate either George is it okay for the president to ask Ukrainians to investigate his political opponents it wasn't about a political opponent it was about corruption that had happened prior first of all Joe Biden when he was vice president of the United States that's we're talking about when he was vice president resident bragged that he went to Ukraine and withheld the money he said I'm not leaving in six hours I'm leaving with the billion dollars that was our taxpayer money unless you fire the prosecutor cuter that happened to be looking into a son Joe Biden bragged about that that's not a question of fact it did happen in so Ukraine had a lot of concerns about corruption eruption Zielinski got elected on a platform to root out corruption and he was focused on that they talked about that on the call in the meantime president trump had already authorized the sale of javelin missiles so that Ukraine could stand up to Russia president O- Biden President Obama and Joe Biden would not send those javelin missiles situation soon rain I don't know why they withheld him but president trump sold them to help Ukraine stand up to Russia so your position is not that it's okay for the president is listed investigations into news opponents as you're saying accorded you believe it just didn't happen it wasn't about the twenty twenty election it was about what had happened prior fire in two thousand sixteen corruption in Ukraine and again the law requires the president to certify that a country before they get foreign aid is actually taking steps to root out corruption corruption Pelosi voted for that shift voted for that I would imagine Eliot Engel voted for that but at the end of the day the president was talking to his alinsky about rooting out corruption action ends alinsky himself said there was nothing wrong with the call he wasn't pressured and he got the money he and the taxpayer money mentioned cross-strait Lydon's but so there was also very a clear example the president in public asking the Chinese to investigate Joe Biden is that okay that was a rhetorical thing that he threw out there I think more to get the press hall riled up which clearly did but in the end George what you're seeing Democrats talk about is using impeachment to try to hurt trump's chances in two thousand twenty in fact the lead author of the articles of impeachment said if they don't impeach president trump he will get reelected that's not why you have impeachment it's for high crimes and misdemeanors I mean Alexander Alexander Hamilton warned about days like this where impeachment would be used for political reasons not because there was a crime committed they've not laid out a crime in fact president trump trump gave the money to Ukraine's Linski acknowledged that he wasn't even aware it was withheld but law current law that Democrats voted for requires the President before Jason Taxpayer money to Ukraine to ensure their rooting out corruption that's what they were jumping on the Defense Department had certified that they were working to that final question you will have the chance to propose as witnesses who do you want to call well there are a lot of people I mean the whistle blower themselves this is a person who claims to be a whistle blower but even the I g reported that this person has a political bias there many reports out there that the whistle blower actually worked for Joe Biden that concerns a lot of people there are also a lot of reports that Adam Schiff in his staff coached the whistle blower prior to the whistle blower report being released those are all serious questions when somebody behind closed doors in secret is trying to take out a sitting president there are a lot of questions that haven't been answered we can't see the transcripts still I wish those were held in public like the Nixon and the Clinton trials als this is nothing like Nixon and Clinton they're literally going behind closed doors to deny rights to not only the Republicans in President trump but to the American can people the vast majority of the American people have no idea except leaked reports that in many cases turned out to be invalid or false when you talk to people that were actually in the room but we can't see that because it's close to the public consciousness lease thanks for your time this morning great to be with you George. While a large number of in fact daddy's fighters and companions were killed with him he died after running into a dead end tunnel whimpering and crying and screaming all the way and he was very well protected he didn't expect this to happen but tremendous protection and he he died crying he spent his last miserable moment soda scouring and trembling and crying and fear of the American warrior that was right they're going right up president trump about the takedown Baghdadi last week those details what we're praying and crying apparently only the president knows them it has been disputed by the military saying they have no evidence of that at all but we're GONNA get into all the politics of the week now with around able Chris Christie or ABC contributor former governor of New Jersey Think rahm Emanuel former mayor of Chicago Chief of staff to Barack Obama Julie Pace The Washington bureau chief for The Washington for AP and Alexina cabin the political reporter from Oxytocin oxytocin. Let's begin with impeachment Chris let me begin with you just saw Chairman Angle and and and Steve scalise and we're seeing definitely party line vote on the next steps in this impeachment it does appear that the Republicans at least in the House are settling strategy. You can't believe what you saw with your own eyes the SA- and again I think for the American people and you see this in the polling it's political the whole thing is politically driven the Republicans responses are politically driven and you see you know Congressman Engel who didn't answer the question either when you showed exactly what he said twenty years going going going when you know you're not gonNA be removable we're in the exact same situation now and and he wouldn't answer that either what that shows people real people who are watching is the hell with all of this they they don't they're telling you George I absolutely believe that by the time we get to the end of this people are going to be like okay the Democrats hate trump they want to get him out Republicans are supporting no matter what happened and so let's get to an election and decide ourselves even after public hearings I think so I think will first of all I think it's very clear that nobody's above the law and here's really what you have basically when you step back and clear out all the dust and the fog you have a president who said that this was a perfect phone call we have every career foreign policy official that's ever served under both presidents may be lying to their lawyers the lawyers making be lying to the most secure computer in National Security and Republican Congress basically are like Sergeant Schultz in Hogan's zero I know nothing I see nothing I hear nothing and I actually think when he does get to the the Senate if the inquiry and remember there's not impeachment impeachment investigation whether it's warranted if it does get to the Senate they're not GonNa let them Scott Free they're going to censure him for what he's done because what he's done is clearly against a goes to the fundamental is the president above the law and the rules of the United States has nobody to Julie Pace you've done some Sun Senate Republicans seemed to be in a somewhat different place from house Republicans on this not denying that it would be a serious matter if the president were soliciting if there are any kind of quid pro quo but maybe getting to the point of saying yes but it's not an impeachable offense you do you do get a different sense from talking to Senate Republicans versus versus House Republicans there's there's more of a concern about the underlying behavior of the president from Senate Republicans of course their politics is different senators are elected statewide versus a lot of these these house Republicans who come from districts where the president is at ninety percent popularity and above with their with their voters I do think though that unless Democrats Democrats can find a way to make this whole process look less partisan and last week's vote made that hard for them I do think that the number of Senate Republicans at this point who would be willing to go forward with with convicting the president is extremely low and one to two at most analysts you did our poll does show vulnerability for Democrats right now I think one of the things they might be banking taking on public hearing school mega difference and we've seen the ways in which Democrats have hope that people life Bob Muller would be star witnesses and pass investigations that they've conducted so I don't think that they can necessarily surly bank on the public hearings to be the blockbuster movie that they think will change public opinion public opinion is shifting and polls but you're right you're poll shows there's an e people that shows over fifty fifty percent of Americans think that Democrats acting on politically motivated ideals when they're moving forward on something like impeachment when I was in Youngstown Ohio last month voters here's were reflecting this message and ensure that was at the beginning of all this impeachment situation but voters there who voted for Obama and then voted for trump folks who voted for Romney and then voted for Clinton we're saying that they felt like this was a distraction for Democrats that they would be solely focused on impeachment rather than focusing on things that affect them their personal financial situation their healthcare and so I think it really two years a messaging opportunity to tell them what they are doing in addition to offer so I think when the curtain gets raise publicly we're not going to be where we were like four weeks ago we weren't are we were it's actually moving in the trajectory I do think the soft underbelly for Democrats if this walks out any discussion of issues all the fact though if if you look at the basic basic round timeline this will actually hurt the president but it won't beat the president is not a good thing to go and be a president that if it concludes again I wanted this is an impeachment inquiry it is not an impeachment and that is a big fact that gets funny it's very funny he's the growing peach him I mean this is this is this why that's gotta be no Democrats got to be clear that they're looking for the answer I do think a public hearing when you get everybody out there that foreign policy official that is going to set a precedent that's gonNA keep the numbers moving the way they're moving Robertson Adam Schiff who's the guy who's running this and he's already determined the presence to be impeached the guy who's supposed to be presiding over hearings that are going to be you know both sides get to bring in their witnesses that's supposed to be fair you have a chairman who has yes absolutely determined that the president to be set of publicly number times so let's stop the charade of what's going to happen and then you removed featherweight second to the actual hearings if you have a kernel Vin man if you have investor Taylor getting up and telling their stories in public the question I have is is is about the White House strategy we've seen past presidents Bill Clinton apologized it helped give his supporters something to hold onto Ronald Reagan during Iran Contra apologized gave his supporters order something the whole time do it doesn't appear the president trump is going to do anything but stand by the idea that this phone call was perfect is that enough well first off remember when those apologies occurred the Clinton apology and the Reagan policy happened everything was over after everything was done and so we don't know what the president's GonNa do based on his past actions this is do we think it's likely that Donald Trump will apologize I've known him for years don't I apologize so so but but also it's unlikely as we've seen now that he pursued the strategy that Clinton pursued successfully ninety eight which was compartmentalize this right trump trump is fighting this every day with every tweet even this morning continues to push that's his style that's who he is and anybody who thinks they're going to go into the White House and Convinced Donald Trump to say let's talk about something else is going to lose that's the problem for Senate Republicans who according to our our reporting shows that they're frustrated by the fact at the White House is not giving them any messaging guidance on impeachment when they have to fight exactly but how long can you sustain a message that's just I'm fighting against hence the Democrats in the same way that Democrats just can't fight against president trump though that is the reelection strategy if you look at the polling right now this is an extremely polarized country where you have Democrats hats were virtually unanimously opposed to the President and Republicans are almost unanimously support so he knows

president President Clinton President Nixon Iowa George Stephanopoulos Congressman Engel Steve Scalise Buddha Jones Chris Christie rahm Emanuel Washington Joe Biden trump Elizabeth Warren ABC News House Foreign Affairs Committe US Washington Post
S4 Episode 3 - Health Education England

Leading with James Ashton

39:00 min | 2 months ago

S4 Episode 3 - Health Education England

"Hi there and welcome to another episode of leading with me. James ashton how to lead. How do they take decisions. And what advice do they offer to others. In this podcast. I talk to leaders from a wide range of organizations about that take on fronting. Vital causes famous brand names and multi-million-pound enterprises some of the ceo's that appeared since i began this podcast in spring. Two thousand nineteen feature my book the nine types of leader which can be now and you can hear more buses from the world's of charity sport. The arts business on apple or spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This time a vital role in uk healthcare davina evans is chief executive of health education england. Part of the niche s plans recruits educates and trains. The health workforce as a future. Currently there are more than one hundred. Sixty thousand students including doctors nurses midwives paramedics an physiotherapists but brexit and the covid nineteen pandemic as made the staffing challenge more acute before joining. Hei in twenty twenty evans spent twenty five years at the nhs's east london foundation trust starting a career as a psychiatrist. Working your way up to clinical director. I'm becoming chief executive in august twenty. Sixteen it's a good conversation with evans. Talking about the importance of keeping a handed on the frontline even after becoming ceo. I began by asking her perspective on the h. S and what. It needs next to cope with the aging population. Yes so the. Nhs james i think is a remarkable institution. That's over one point. Four million of us old coming together to do this with a sort of common purpose. And i didn't know of any other organization that works like that so it is really tremendous and this last year i think has demonstrated and brought out the best in all of us. We've also been able to demonstrate some quite remarkable innovation and the ability to come together across boundaries and across lots of organizational sort of silos to make a huge difference. So it's been fantastic. Examples have been fantastic. Examples of what can be done is also been extremely challenging and i think that as leaders in the nhs we need to think very carefully about how we build on. What we've learned has worked really well so it's not just more money though was the solution to the. Nhs's is always been seen as a political level or or or maybe in the electorate is we've got to give it more money. It's a cherished natural institution. But you would say it's more than that. It's about ways of working and so on. I think there's definitely discussion to be had about funding and investment. And you know there's a lot of a lot of very clear evidence and research into what's needed. So i i think that goes without saying however how we spend our money. What we do with. Our resources is hugely important. So it's not just about the funding and investment. One of the things that i've been really interested in over the years as a leader in the. Nhs is that is whenever. I've seen variation in comes in quality in impact in experience of staff and of our patients and service users across organizations that have very similar funding models or teams or even you know very small levels. Why is it some bits of the system can deliver really really well specifically in the pandemic and so i know you joined about much time so depending on how you look at it you were in the right place at the right time or you suddenly found out a lot very very quick phased in from march until an been. Ceo will literally now. And i saw a figure. I think in the annual report about i think health education england and extra thirty thousand people onto the front line. I think helping to staff. Oh some of those field hospitals. Just tell me what you did. and how how. How impacted the frontline yup so. That was really quite remarkable. So actually i was appointed in march but i joined health. Education england only a few weeks ago so between march and october. I was a little bit on the outside. I was in service. So i had the experience of working to Enable extra staff to join the nhs. But i i was also closely involved in the understanding of health. Education england's input now that last time round the first wave. If you want to call it that we were able to really look at students at Trainees in the last year of their education and really deploy them quite quickly into service. We also helped with the nhl us trying to get people who wanted to return to work. People who retired people who'd left to retrain and come back into service. We were also able to support lots of quick rapid learning to to enable colleagues to work in the highest levels of critical care like the nightingale hospitals so that was a lot of really fantastic learning from that time round. Because i should say i've been health. Education england is not. I don't think it's a famous part of the nhs but it's performing very critical role of normal times. If i get these numbers wrong there. A hundred sixty thousand trainees in the nhs. Everything from doctors nurses paramedics midwives and so on and you'll constantly feeding that population of yukon point. Four million so. I guess you need to recruit a huge number every year just to feed the beast. Well yes absolutely so health education of should quietly be working in the background to support the. Nhs we're here to serve the chest and to be really aligned with service planning in the immediate so you know every year thinking about the students and trainees that come into medical schools universities institutes of higher education. And but we're also in the workforce planning for the future so you know if you went into university this year you might not qualify for three years or if you were going to become a doctor. It'd be slightly longer. And then we also have the training posts for junior doctors so they qualify for medical school and then they go into our training programs and we work very closely with their all colleges the gmc with the nursing and midwifery council to make sure that we maintain a high quality. And you know the kind of compassionate stuff that we want for the future so one of the roads of h. e. health education england is to keep that i on the medium and long-term as well as the here and now and how to how many people do the inches need to bring on every year to keep the show on the road and where across these different disciplines to you. Identify the pinch point says you takeover. Yeah so the. Nhs has been quite concerned about nursing in particular. You would have heard about that. And in some specialties of medicine but also in a lot of the other what we call. Allied health professionals like physiotherapy psychology and other areas so for example last year they were very concerned about. Gp's with co vid and with pressure on different aspects of different conditions are always looking for where the pressure points are. We'd also aligned with the long term plan For the nhs so there were some work streams for cancer mental health for example where hi were very closely linked with other experts on what was required for planning so interested if you if you can talk anything about the numbers because there were a you hit your numbers on. Gp's last year was fantastic. I think a record number that you brought on more than three thousand and it a bit harder in the trainee nurses but not surprising to give him that given the it was emerging. So i think you brought on five thousand seven and a half so is it those sorts of figures year on year that you need to keep hitting so those are the sorts of figures so actually we we align very closely to service planning so absolutely so if you know. The manifesto commitment was for fifty thousand nurses in the next couple of years. So we're working very closely with our universities and schools and with the chest because we're also looking at people returning to work. There were many people to create a break so a left nursing and there's quite a number of them who want to return the other issue is also about retention so we're working very closely with partners in the nhs to prevent people from leaving to make it easier to stay to work flexibly. That's the sort of thing that we're looking to do. So when you set the plan out now under your first in your first few weeks. I'm interested in some of the drivers. I mean it has become harder to get the numbers that you need. Because of something like brexit and there was i think was traditionally you know great numbers of people that came from rural to work at the nfl. Jessica is that to some degree offset by covid. I'm curious if this huge of the nhl is actually become quite a recruitment tool for you. People want to go into this essential service. Yeah absolutely so. Interestingly we've had so we also do recruitment and we do. We do drives to encourage students and young people who are interested in professions in in careers in health care and we've had a fall greater level of interest in coming into the profession not just nursing but other other care roles is well. We had more medical school placements this year in line with the kind of good a level results so that were more medical school placements. We are looking very closely on the impact of brexit and again we respond to what's happening in the region so it's very important that we don't have a kind of one size fits all national approach to recruitment. But some parts of london the southwest southeast new cost. So it's all very different so we try very hard to respond to local need so those two factors balancing each other out there or in terms of brexit versus covert or is that a little bit too black and white you know i think i think that is a little bit too black and white because it is quiet it is quite complex and also working really closely with the department and with government to see how we can support people who do want to stay or who do want to work in this country and also it depends on what specialty people are coming with. You know if they're critical care nurses if the general analysis different levels of specialism in the medical profession. so it's really kind of very nuanced in terms of which rose and then trying to match that with the different parts of the country where the need is so it's really strongly coordinated piece of work between h. e. between any chest england Improvement and then at regional level with old trust and primary care networks to respond to what's needed locally. And what do you. What's the big achievement. You hope to have an incoming into this role. It's a consciously about the numbers it's about the quality organization the quality of the upskilling people who have remaining jobs not those that are coming or going as well. I guess absolutely so coming into the role at h. e. e. this point so when i was appointed it was at the start of the whole sort of covid pandemic work and prior to my appointment. I was thinking about what was ease role in the long term. Planning for the nhs well. I think that since. I've been there now these last few months. It's really turned on its head because we've done so many amazing things and there's been so much innovation that we can learn from and doing things differently. People have really come together to innovate. The use of digital has just taken off in a way that you know would have taken us a very long time prior to this to get to where we got to now so hanging onto all the good things that we've learned and built on them and then also some of the things that haven't worked so well you know what is it that we need to kind of think these things haven't worked in. How are we going to sort of maybe change them. Learned from the areas. Haven't worked so well have you. So if you put a plan in place yet then as you say you. Align to government set targets like fifty thousand extra nurses and so on. I guess you have a bit of leeway going into this financial year there was an extra two hundred million dot net. That's already gone on corona virus related things but certainly there is a commitment from central government to to give you more budget so we're currently having discussions with the department and with an hse. I as you can imagine. It's very complex set of of discussions. You know what funding is required for the here now. Obviously for critical care and for responding to the needs of the demands. That cova displacing right now. And then we've got discussions on the spending review. What can we. How can we plan for the next next year. And then how can we plan beyond that. So it's sort of happens in phases and the important thing for me is that we're all aligned and that we are talking to one another about how we plan for spending based on the need immediate medium-term and long-term and just one more on the existing workforce. Do you think the impact of this year means that people are reenergized. Want to stay longer and develop their career with the nhl. Or i mean it's quite possible to say people have just totally shattered and actually might quit sooner than that. Was your concern that just going to quit so there. I think there are three groups of people that for me. We need to look after one. Is the people who are attracted to come to work for the nhs and there's no question that actually through covid that's been a lot more interested in working for the nhs there's also a lot of people are losing jobs. There's you know there's some difficulty in that area and it's possible that people with the right values and who wants to go into care can come and be attracted to training and learning indiana chest. So that's the first group of individuals. The second group is the people who have come back and who have a kind of renewed interest anna excited about coming back to the nhs. So that's the second group and then the third group which we must not forget about. We must not sort of neglect is looking after our staff who are feeling quite tired and who are exhausted. Some of them have been through difficult experiences. Losing colleagues aw or seeing people who've been very unwell who themselves have been ill with cova so actually looking off the stuff is a another big priority. And i knew my colleagues in england improvement. I've got a big focus on the well being of our staff. And what is the makeup of your stuff in h. e. so other many trainers said we've got about three and a half thousand staff in. Hei so we're actually we sort. We employ that many staff and then we have a lot of sort of what we call the faculty so people who are in service who also then actors trainers and have relationships with us so it's quite a complex kind of web if you like h. e. so there's a really rich source of people from right away from people who do work for analysis people who understand curriculum and then the people who actually deliver the training and then people who do assessment and examinations and work with universities and with the colleges as well. We've also got staff who are developing what we call other roles like apprentice ships and widening participation so that we want to really expand the health care workforce beyond doctors unnecess- on what was the attraction of this renovated. Because you looking at your cv in your career. You absolutely entrenched at east london foundation. Trust the people people probably bets on the on. You never leaving. But then you've come across today so it's a big challenge but i'm interested in what really pulled you over yet. So you're absolutely right. I condition a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And i absolutely loved working at eastern foundation trust. I really enjoyed being chief. Executive one of the things i enjoyed most in in that role was actually the A kept my feet on the ground because of our very strong relationship with patients and carers so patient participation was hugely important to me. And the reason i became interested was i've been walking on the people plan for the last couple of years together with colleagues in h. e. e. and the nhc. I and with other partners. I've always been interested in training and education so even as a clinician. I used to be a trainer up junior doctors and others so that's really was really important to made. My parents were both teachers. Maybe that has something to do with it. And when this when this role came up and it was advertised. And i had the conversation. I didn't think i was the sort of person that an arms length body would necessarily be looking for to be a chief executive but had to go and yeah. It's it appears that this is. I'm the sort of passing. They they wanted so the big thing for me is it's about people. I just love the fact that have an opportunity to shape on a very large scale. The future workforce. I think about myself as an. At eighty something year-old woman with perhaps requiring a multidisciplinary team to care for me. And i would love to be able to look back and think that in my timing h. e. e. i had the opportunity to shape the training and education and influence the quality of care that my eighty five year old self will be experiencing such a great way of looking at it. Because the really is you know. Many years hadn't so that you can see that investment for the future so if you bring that twenty year olds eighteen year old in now then. You're actually projecting out what their career could look like an how we look after the the population as it ages absolutely and and we really need to look off our people right from the time. They're students some study that was done in in the us where they demonstrated that burnout begins as a trainee and they were talking about doctors but not begins at medical school. I think that was just really shocking. When i heard that so a couple of questions over the first one is you say from unless you little bit about your rise at left. Because it's it's not a very the route that everyone would take but you liked that interface with the patients. But i guess you haven't got at hp your interface if you like is with is with the staff as they're developed and trained up you don't get to see the patients anymore so you're right not not. I have to make the effort. I have to really remember what i'm here for. And this is a conversation. I've been having with my new colleagues at h. e. e. Since i've been there you know how connected can we feel to the people that we serve. The people we serve are the people who live in england our population. So we do this thing at our induction. Can you just think to for everyone. what are you doing. And how many steps away is is what you're doing and what you're here to do whether it's finance or procurement or it yoyo you're fixing the system that recruits doctors. Can you really sit down and think. How is this connected to you. Know my mum or my next door neighbor. And i think it's really really important to hold onto that especially when we're having to deal with tension or difficult having difficult conversations with whoever whichever body that we're having those difficult conversations with to just remember we share a common purpose and that is a huge honor actually to be asked to do this and i think in h. e. e to be asked to shape future generations of care health and castoff is a huge responsibility unassisted leadership style of ena that you'll you'll searching out points of agreement because you've already listed these organizations. You have to fall into line with if you like so it seems like you. Strive to be quite consensual I believe in the common purpose so you know we we all start and at that place at the second thing i believe in it is really important to have different views and differences of opinion so i was as a psychiatrist. You work in a multidisciplinary team. And i remember multi. Dismay teams used to be places where we'd have all sorts of debates and arguments about. What was the right thing to do. What were the different things. We need to consider for the patients benefit and i think in psychiatry that was really important because otherwise risk of you know being really paternalistic to people so i really value that kind of opportunity for for debate and then having to come together always to think about the common purpose. So yeah i think my style is to seek collaboration to bring different points of view to listen to stuff. You don't wanna hear and then having to make a decision. Tell me about that path from being a clinician to leader administrator. If you like interviewed on this podcast a little while ago johnny dean john bear. Who's at liverpool university and eight. Almost i don't think you're going to happen without her noticing. But she was very very happy academic and then Suddenly she's deputy vice chancellor then suddenly she's running one university of manchester matt and then she's over at liverpool and the studies have gone by the by. I mean did it happened that way for you. Yes kind of so. I worked in an organization where the leadership at elf t. Before when i book that for a very long time even before it was elfed and one of the things that you might notice about doctors is that we're very good at sort of describing the problem standing on the sidelines. If you like and making commentary about what's wrong and usually also also sort of saying management needs to do this management ought to sort this out. Management is the problem k. So we're quite quite good at that and the organization. I worked with decided the actually they needed doctors to be more involved. In management in the day to day operational delivery and in delivering value for money. And that's kind of how. I ended up falling into it. Because i was quite vocal one of the people on the sidelines of so i was invited to come and help solve the problems if i had such strong views which did. And that's how it kind of happened. And then it was also an organization that really encouraged the patient voice and that was hugely. That influenced me massively. What patients bring to the conversation. I now am a patient myself with a chronic condition. And i try very hard to help my own cara care givers or institution to kind of hear my voice so you is a young doctor. You the way you describe. It seems like you've management consultant portrayed union rep so it's no no one. No one. did i drank you into to try and be the solution. But i should say i mean eastland foundation trust as as a big big trust is boulton six thousand staff across a hundred sites. The organization has its roots in mental health. And you were the psychiatry. So you're an absolutely the right place. I think But to to move up through that organization it was very very big and quite a thing to navigate. I can see that you were in training quite early on so that was when you passing on your skills as leaders do expose mid-career if you just talk a bit about that and then how how it was to make that switch over to Suddenly you're administering more and you're seeing fewer patients every day so Yes so that was a kind of structure for clinical leadership. And that's how i. I went into leadership. But i actually. I maintained a critical role in a contract to provide legal services. Right up until two years towards the end of my chief executive job so i actually managed to do some clinical work even as chief executive and i thought that was really important to keep in touch. You know so for me to go into to be on and go into one of our sites and have to experience what patients experienced an experience. What my junior doctor colleagues will nasr colleagues experience. When the the phones didn't work you couldn't get your blood test results. Those sorts of things that as an administrator understanding how hard it was and how some of our processes just go in the way of people doing the best that they could. So i think it was really important to hold onto your clinical role. For as long as you as you could. I ended up actually giving it up towards the end. Because i just couldn't do enough for my revalidation. I would say it was day. It's an incredible thing to put onto that pressure to effectively. Do two jobs at once. But i suppose when you were on the world. Your julia colleagues must have done incredible things for your credibility. Yeah it did it. Did i mean they yes they they appreciate it but they also a little bit suspicious of having the chief executive on the ward a little bit worried about you know what was i. What was i bet to do. But you know we just had loved about it and chatted about it and again you know having having contact with patients It's a great leveler. And i think you said he wanted one piece of writing or a blog or something that you only ever going to become. Ceo of elf. T interested that. Was that that particular affinity you had to the organization. Yeah so to become chief executive of an organization. I felt that you feel you have to have a connection with the people so the people of the communities that you serve the people being the staff and the people being the patients so i would have found it difficult to go to another organiz to go through an interview process or selection process to become a chief executive of a place that i didn't know that i would fit. -same fits was really really important. So that was why. I felt that to be in chief executive of a provider organization. That was that was really important to me. And i'm working on the fit at ag right now but it's only been a few weeks. Give give it a chance. What about that when when you got into the chief executives office. What were the things that you discovered. You couldn't do the skills that you needed to learn. What did you get from. I think the thing that i found as a chief executive was the buck really does stop with you. I had a fantastic chair. Who was was a great listener but at the end of the day would never ever say to me would never tell me what to do. Would be would hold up a mirror would listen to all my different options but at the end of the day may give a little bit of guidance but i had to make the decision so that was quite interesting and different but i think i learned very quickly that you have to focus on your team and you have to look after your team so my executive team colleagues just marvelous and making sure that they were happy head all the right conditions to do their best. That was really important. The third thing for me is for people to trust me. I needed to be honest. Open transparent authentic and actually it was okay to say. I don't know. Oh you know what i think. I'm going to have to change my mind. I might not be right. And that's hugely liberating. Because i think a lot of people think that they've got to know the answers but you don't and then there is that process of appear starting to treat you like the boss. I guess that's something to go through as well absolutely so that was definitely So i was on the executive team. And then i became the chief executive and but again we had very conversations about what that would feed like some of them. You know we we had. We did joke a bit about it but we definitely sat down and talked about you. Know what was it going to be like having been pissed to having me then in that role and we didn't always agree on things and we just had to have a safe space to be able to say you know they didn't agree with me and challenge me and then for us to have those discussions. Nothing beats having proper open discussions. What do you say about culture in the inches. In how as a leader how you were tell not either in your trust or h. e. Now i mean i remember talking to matthew shore. Great ormond street He you know he was very honest. These tough tough places to work in people fall out and they fight and they quit and It's a high stress environment. So i don't know how the leaders could make it easier than it is so i think you're absolutely right. I think one of the reasons is because it's you know where hundreds and thousands of people who had deeply we all think we're right and you know we want to do the best we can. And then on the really very difficult circumstances. The other thing to remember is that we dealing with a lot of distress people's pain people's distressed peoples anger sorrow sadness loss. And all of those things take their toll on us in the past as being a bit of a kind of macho culture that you don't let these things affect you. But i think we're much more able to be open about how hard it is and how painful it can be. And i think that's a good thing. I think chief executive job. Oh a big proportion of your job is looking after your people much more than i think. You've got a good finance director. You've got good chief operating officer you can deliver value for money and you got good people to coughed quality and outcomes and patient safety and infection control and all of those things but looking off the people i believe is firmly in the domain of the chief executive with your partners with your hr and you people experts but it's your business you set the tone and and you model behavior. So what was the big successively left you in your time. What was our. i'd say two things. One is really encouraging our staff to work with patients as partners and that means saying to patients. We don't know we got it wrong. We made a mistake. Sorry and that's not easy to do and patients and their carers are so incredibly forgiving and that's one of the things that was a wonderful to see an hair. The second thing was we embedded systematically the quality improvement methodology and science of improvement into our organization. It was by no means. We hadn't finished it you know. It's an ongoing endeavor. But i think if you use the ideas that there's a need for continuous improvement regardless of how good you think you are your job or your services your performances ninety percent this one hundred percent that whatever there's always room for improvement and that actually is really powerful to for change and makes people feel really good about. It's very rewarding. When you see that you can make small difference. That brings huge improvement. What did you regret as you left. Elf t. was something that went wrong. Oh you you left unfinished or failed. So people were still having experiences that made me sad in the organization. Just people would still describe behaviors. That i thought surely not. This can't be happening and there were lots of small things but they meant a lot to people. And i think what i've decided the way i'm thinking about is that these things will always happen. So you've got to continuously be vigilant and expect that to happen. The other thing is i guess. We didn't move fast enough in terms of working in partnership with other organizations without partners in now integrated care systems but again i think that just requires a degree of patients and building trust. We will on the right direction. But i wish we'd gone faster. I want to come back to your point own macho culture. I read another one of your blocks blogs blogs. I think it was the point you made about. Sexism encountered in the nhl. And i'm interested in the nhs's such a lot of strong female representation on the wards with the nurses and so on. But i guess like almost any other large complicated organization sadly the higher up you get the more male dominated it gets so i'm just interested in those sorts of prejudice that you encountered as rose up. Yeah so gosh. I could tell you leaders of horror stories about what i'd experienced. We're talking throwaway comment so you know really sometimes quite inappropriate and they all happened very very long time ago. Though i must say as a chief executive. I'll tell you one as a chief executive. I had a rather difficult conversation with with a very senior male colleague and i think he found it quite difficult that we were having this slight difference in opinion and i'm bumped into him after a while and he just looked at me and said that's a very unusual dress for chief executive and i was just. I was so stunned. I didn't actually say anything. And of course when i went back into my room i was really really hot and cross and i could think about seven different clever things. I could've said to him but of course i didn't at the time i think also being an asian woman not very imposing looking. I guess i have walked into meetings where people have said. Can i help you. Are you in the wrong meeting kind of thing as well. That has happened. Not so long ago. Did thing i'd say is when when people do realize the mistake they've made. They are mortified and very apologetic. So that's a change will about something. I suppose you sign. It wasn't the apology from several years ago. But still the idea that a ceo looks in a certain way. We should go past that point by now. Yes but i think we're getting there does. It is definitely getting better. And i think the more i think the whole question of allied ship is really important. I think it's a hugely hugely important. I remember many years ago having the conversation with stonewall about lgbt allies. And that was the first time. I think i really thought of myself in that role. And since then i think having men as allies hugely important for women and having white people as allies for race equality and speaking up is hugely important. Tell me about mentorship other particular people who helped to guide your career. Yes of course absolutely. I've been very fortunate throughout my career. I was lucky enough to have people who looked after me who supported me. Who trained me. Who pushed me. Who encouraged me and that was. That was always something that is i think hugely important and having benefited from that myself i will always want to be a mentor to others. You have mentors different reasons. And sometimes i think it was particularly helpful when i had mental a mental who was not like me at all so that they would actually challenge some of the some of my kind of imposter syndrome. More some of the lack of ambition or lack of drive and they would really challenge some of the some of my own opinions about what was possible and that was really important and so finally how do you pass out advice onto the to the next generation to the people who want to to be where you are now so we need to look for solutions and potential in places where we don't look in people that we least expect it. My concern is that we have got a need in the nhs. And i worry that the oldest lost potential and lost opportunity. So for every one of me. I think that must be or ten fifteen twenty people who no one knows about who are could could potentially be fantastic leaders so i think as someone who's kind of got there it's my duty to kind of seek out other people and encourage them to consider this as their duty. Something you ought to be thinking about. And what have i not asked you. What have i forgotten about. Well okay. i think it's really important to look after yourself. Leadership and medicine. And it's it's it's a science but it's also an art form. I think that i looked to novels. And poetry and music to keep you in touch with humanity and what really matters. And we're in the business of hope levin evans. Thanks so much for the conversation thank you. Thanks for listening to this. Episode of leading with james ashton please rate and reviews. If you like what you've heard you can find more lead to sharing their stories in previous episodes wherever you podcasts or please take a look leading part dot com staying in the world of healthcare. I've previously talked to matthew. Shaw from great ormond street hospital martin. House and brown from st john ambulance on bloopers. Evelyn burke my book the nine types of leader is published by kogan page it draws on the wisdom of many ceo's of interviewed over the years including some that are featured in this podcast. More podcast episodes coming soon.

Hit Parade: Friends in Low Places, Part 1

Slate's Culture Gabfest

1:20:23 hr | 2 months ago

Hit Parade: Friends in Low Places, Part 1

"Hey there hit parade listeners. As we recently announced we are thrilled to be bringing our full length episodes back to non slate plus listeners. Starting this fall nonplus listeners will hear our episodes in two parts. What you're about to hear is part one of this episode. Part two will arrive in your podcast feed at the end of the month. Would you like to hear this episode. All at once the day it drops sign up for slate. Plus it's just thirty five dollars for the first year and it supports not only this show but all slates acclaimed journalism and podcasts. Just go to slate dot com slash hit parade. Plus you'll get to hear every hip episode in full the day it arrives plus hit parade. The bridge are bonus episodes with guest interviews deeper dives on our episode topics and pop chart trivia once again to join. That's slate dot com slash hip parade plus. Thanks and now. Please enjoy part one of this hip parade. Episode saint coming from prophecy. Welcome to hit parade. A podcast of pop chart history from slate magazine about the hits from coast to coast. I'm chris melinda chart analyst pop critic and writer of sleeps. Why is the song number one series on. Today's show a couple of weeks after a divisive twenty twenty us election. I thought i might play you a little something from the american culture wars of generation ago. Twenty eight years ago this week in november nineteen ninety-two. this gospel. flavored country song titled we shall be free was in the top twenty on billboard's hot country singles and tracks chart. It was the lead single from the number one album in the country and this song aimed to capture the mood of the times. Last thing we notice is the coder skin and the first thing we look for with me. The singer of this country song pledges allegiance to some very progressive issues. He espouses tolerance for both freedom of religion and gay equality. He decries racism hunger and homelessness. He even gestures in the direction of condemning economic inequality in one thousand nine hundred ninety two and i know what some of you are thinking. This was a hit on country. Radio with well of this song was actually an underperformer for its singer and main songwriter. We shall be free peaked at number twelve on the hot country chart in october nineteen ninety-two that was low for this artist. The only time a lead single from one of his original studio fell short of the country. Top ten of course the only way a song like we shall be free could be any kind of country hit in nineteen ninety two was if it came from an absolute megastar someone country radio had to play in other words the only man in country music who could get away with it was garth brooks brooks did not have trouble topping the charts in the one thousand nine hundred ninety s. He was the best selling musician of that decade. Not just country music's bestseller the bestseller period in any genre with total album sales in that decade of nearly one hundred million topping such ninety titans as mariah carey nirvana pearl jam and to pock two decades. Later garth is up to one hundred fifty seven million in certifications second only in america to the beatles and all this despite the fact that his hit songs including literally all eighteen of his nineties country chart toppers didn't appear on billboards. Hot one hundred pop chart account all in a big sun gums. This might sound like the conspiracy or evidence of urban blue state america. Thumbing its nose at red state. America's favorite son and native whose biggest hits were about honky tonks cowboys and rodeos in no woman flash floods and dan no road ego as i mean. Talk about two. Americans brooks was the music megastar. Top forty pop fans barely even knew and yet on the charts. The truth was much more nuanced. Garth brooks wasn't on the hot one hundred because brooks wanted it that way. He was a savvy. Bill would observer who understood how the charts worked and played the game to win. Moreover brooks came up in a nashville that remembered the last time country music had tried to flirt. With the pop charts and how country pop then became a bull riding it denim and rhinestones fat. Even a punch garth brooks would not let that happen to him. He was determined to dominate the hit parade while as the country saying goes dancing with one that brung him brooks wanted to prove country music could have the flash and arena packing spectacle of rock blockbuster. Sales of mainstream pop sees pass while remaining unapologetically country. He fused a prior generation of adult contemporary balladry. And even certain hard rock elements into songs that still had steel guitars fiddles and the kind of yearning high lonesome vocals. That were a nashville treatment. In it comes the story of country. Music explosion in the ninety s was about a lot of things even beyond garth brooks. Some of it was about fads back on some was about country songs that could just as easily be popson. Da and some of it was about the country sound hybridize with other genres and spreading around the brad less uses just a good deal of countries. Newfound success had to do with information in the music business and better billboard charts the same forces that finally helped elevate hip hop do all that and more for country music and no one benefited more than the guy in the cowboy hat from tulsa oklahoma and today on his parade we will trace the winding path that brought country music to the top of the charts including the pop album chart and made household names on a first name. Basis out of folks like garth. Why known billy ray and even shinoia. These megastars went multi-platinum by applying pop professionalism to music that still have that twang and the best navigator of this town and country approach was the guy who broke big while singing about his roots and his. And that's where your hit parade marches today the week ending october twenty seventh nineteen ninety when friends in low places by garth brooks was in its fourth week at number one on billboard's hot country singles and tracks. It was the same week his album. No fences instantly went gold and platinum affirming that he was country. Music's biggest star. Soon enough garth brooks would become more than any rockstar. Rapper or pop diva the archetypal artist of the soundscan era. So swap your champagne for a whiskey with a beer chaser and join us as we go rope in the wind at our hit parade electric cars. Some people think they're weird. But you know what else people thought was weird social media ridesharing viral dance challenges. And oh yeah podcasts. But now here we are. You're listening to a podcast and electric cars are normal now with longer. Ranges plenty of charging stations and faster charging just about anyone can get onboard electric cars. They're normal now. Learn more at normal now dot com. We're all shopping for essentials online these days. And now you can get rewarded for it with the bank of america cash rewards credit card. You can choose to earn three percent cash back on online shopping essentials. The essentials have never felt more rewarding visit bank of america dot com slash more rewarding to apply now copyright twenty twenty bank of america corporation. Is this one of my typical hip parade head. Fakes why am i playing this disco classic by the bg's. Didn't i just say this was a country episode. Well what are you picturing. As i play this. Whom are you picturing john. Travolta maybe strutting down eighty sixth street in brooklyn new york in one thousand nine hundred. Seventy seven with a paint can and his hand stay travolta. Yes john travolta please an unlikely but vital role in the story of country music's with the pop charts the blockbuster movie that this bg saw appeared in saturday night. Fever is a kind of preamble to that country. Crossover moment and we have to take a detour through the history of country. Crossover before we get back to garth brooks and his nineties chart commanding country conquest to be sure country. Crossover dated back well. Before the seventies ever since so called hillbilly music was defined as a category in the nineteen twenties country performers radio programmers and fans have prideful police. The border of what is and isn't eight country you the it was always complicated by the nineteen fifties rock and roll especially early rockabilly recorded by the likes of elvis presley had country baked into it from the jump on the hot one hundred in late fifties and sixties. There were pop. Chart toppers by such country. Stars as conway twitty brenda lee. And jimmy dean. John bobby goldsboro jeannie c riley and even with a number two pop hit called a boy named sue johnny cash flow by the seventies. The border between polished ville country records and straight up pop was starting to blur songs. Like lynn anderson's number one country number three pop smash rose garden in one thousand nine hundred. Seventy one sounded like the warrant fully wedded to either format sky. Shot easy listening singer songwriters like john. Denver muddied the waters. Further denver was more pop sometimes more country other times and at his peak he commanded both trump's good be back off. this led to controversy. When in nineteen seventy five the country music association's entertainer of the year award was presented to john. Denver live on tv. The cma prize was presented by the prior year's winner. Charlie rich who in a drunken instantly infamous incident open. The envelope took out a lighter and when he saw denver's name lit the slip of paper on fire john dente. This act rankin protest against the perceived papa. -cation of country was well a bit rich coming from charlie rich because he too was a hot one. Hundred topping pop crossover star in the seventies. You happen to see the beautiful world. And charlie rich was in good company also. Working both sides of the street in the seventies were veteran guitarist turned country. Pop megastar glen campbell and the moderately twangy singer songwriter. Bj thomas won't you pay no some somebody wrong song. All of these were number one hits on both the hot one hundred and hot country singles. The wall between pop and country was porous enough in the mid seventies that when british australian singer olivia newton. John broke in america. It was on the country chart. I in fact in an awards show upset nearly as controversial as a denver's. Cma win newton. John won the grammy for best female country. Vocal in nineteen. Seventy four over tammy. Which brings us back to the end of the seventy s and john travolta not only because travolta right after saturday night. Fever co starred with olivia newton. John in the fifties nostalgia movie musical grease by the way that film's soundtrack gave newton john. One final top twenty country hit the old school slow dance hopelessly devoted to you before she went fully puck john travolta on the other hand went in the opposite direction. After greece and saturday night fever he moved toward country. Not on record but on the screen and in the process he was going to do for country what he did for disco with saturday night. Fever bring it fully into the mainstream travolta dropped his brooklyn accent for a southern accent and became bud. Davis in urban cowboy. Just want to tell you something. I'm hardheaded and i'm prideful. I won't apologise clear back to when a hitch in the first time i love sissy ooh released in the summer of nineteen. Eighty and co starring debra winger. Urban cowboy was labeled the country. Saturday night fever by more than one movie critic. The comparison was apt. And not just both films starred travolta. They were stories about blue collar strivers yearning to move to the big city who spent their nights peacocking at a buzzy nightclub in the case of urban cowboy. That club was an actual real life. Sprawling honky-tonk tonk on the outskirts of houston called gillies co owned by country. Hitmaker mickey gilley. The club was known not only for its country line dancing but even more iconic -ly. It's mechanical bull riding. Yes you do pirata lever loud bodak off jesse right it. Here's why all of this matters the mechanical bulls the line. Dancing the kitschy boots and stetson hats. Urban cowboy was more than a movie. It was a cultural happening. The film was a moderate box office. Hit taking in forty seven million in nineteen eighty about half of what saturday night. Fever had grossed but the musical impact of urban cowboy on country. Crossover is hard to overstate. You finally decided to learn how to ice skate. So you order the essentials. Every ice skater needs a pair of blades. A new helmet and a good set of kneepads. And you used your bank of america. Cash rewards credit card choosing to earn three percent cashback online shopping rewards that you put towards the cost of an essential piece of post skating recovery. A heating pad visit bank of america dot com slash more rewarding to apply now copyright twenty twenty bank of america corporation country music. Historians are mark the shift from the seventies into the eighties as the urban cowboy phenomenon. Honky tonks with mechanical bulls sprouted up in cities across america with designer jeans and cowboy boots as their dress code. As for the music. The urban cowboy soundtrack was itself smash reaching the top three on the pop album chart going platinum and spawning a half dozen top forty hits from johnny lease number five. Pop hit looking for love to mickey gillies twangy cover of ben e king's classic. Stand by me a number twenty two popular The what was more remarkable was the knock on effect. Urban cowboy had on country acts. Who had nothing to do with the movie. That's how you knew. The phenomenon legs eighty rabbit. A songwriter and penned kentucky rain for elvis presley before becoming a recording star himself scored a string of country number one in the late seventies but he'd only cracked the pop top forty a couple of times before urban cowboy after urban cowboy rabbit became a pop star to he. Hit number five on the hot one. Hundred with dr in my life and then night eddie. Rabbit topped the hot one with. I love a rainy night. When rabbit went to number one in february hundred eighty one he was trading places with another pop chart topper by a country. Well star is too mild a word for this american icon bottles dolly parton had scored more than a dozen country number ones through the end of the seventies but on the pop chart most of her hits stalled below the top ten dolly picked the right moment to star in a movie and record her. Catchy est ever song as its titled track nine to five probably would have been hit without urban cowboy but in early nineteen eighty-one the urbane country song fit right in on pop radio and went all the way to the top of the hot one. Hundred and speaking of urbane. You saw a may such a who kenny. Rogers was a mostly country. Hitmaker who in the seventies only occasionally crossed to the pop charts for example. His nineteen seventy-nine classic. The gambler topped the country chart but only reached number. Sixteen on the hot one hundred. But in nineteen eighty. Kenny became america's biggest solo male singer. His lionel ritchie penned ballad lady topped both charts in the closing weeks of nineteen eighty and his greatest hits. Lp topped the pop album chart and went platinum. It would eventually be certified for twelve million in sales. The songs crossing from country to pop in the week of urban cowboy were in many cases more pop than country lady was essentially an be ballot. Indeed it even made an appearance on billboard's soul chart and even the hits with obvious southern accent by like the oakridge boys cover of dallas frazier's elvira had eight kitschy pop sensibility. Elvira reached number five on the hot one hundred in the summer of nineteen eighty-one sharing space in the top. Ten with the even perkier queen of hearts by juice newton and eventual number two pop pre talk basically country pop was riding a wave and serving a function for radio programs. These were palatable. Middle of the road hits in the era of the disco backlash many of these singles functioned as straight up adult contemporary pop. Whether it was kenny. Rogers number three ballad. I don't need you ronnie millsaps borderline yacht. Rock no gettin over off five suite buried no over me or the iconic billy nelson with his biggest ever. Pop hit the definitive grammy winning cover of the country pop standard always on my mind. It was a number five hit for nelson in one thousand nine hundred. Eighty two always always off from nineteen eighty to eighty two. It seemed any country. Act able to record a crossover track and play down. The twang could score a pop hit even country royalty rosanne cash daughter of johnny cash scored her only top forty pop hit with the percolating. One thousand nine hundred eighty one single seven year eight but the country pop wave started to peter out by nineteen eighty-three. That was the year a couple of smash. Duets brought the urban cowboy era to a close. Eddie rabbits final pop. Crossover hit you and i. A duet with country veteran crystal gayle reached number seven on the hot one hundred in february of eighty three. That's caused and then of course. There was kenny rogers and dolly parton blockbuster. Version of a song. I discussed in our. Bg's of hit parade. The immortal islands in the stream. Written by barry robin and morris give it topped the pop and country charts in the fall of eighty islands in the stream may have seemed like country. Crossover at its apex. But it turned out to be a last hurrah by nineteen eighty-four pop struck back and the sound of top. Forty radio was much new wavier funkier and more synthetic dominated by the likes of durant album and bruce springsteen who fused heartland rock with mass appeal. Top forty radio didn't really need country stars anymore. The rockers have the sound of middle american authenticity covered whether it was john mellencamp with hits like pink houses or lionel richie his stuck on you was a country ballad in aren be clothing. It reached number three on the hot one hundred number eight on the aren beach art and even hit number twenty four on the country. Meanwhile actual country music recorded by country artists for country. Radio suddenly found itself unable to touch the upper reaches of the pop charts alabama for example one of the biggest bands of their era went from consistently hitting the pop top twenty on both the album chart and the hot one hundred in the early eighties with. Lp's like the quadruple platinum announcing. Use it. Some grandma and off to missing the top forty with their albums and missing the hot one hundred with their singles not unlike the severe disco backlash of nineteen eighty when the music didn't really go away but was no longer topping the charts country music by eighty four and eighty five entered a long wilderness period. It was as if pop listeners had overdosed on nashville product and sent the entire genre packing. Mind you for its core. Fans country was as popular as ever and still minting new stars but now country existed in its own world. Obvious the jugs. The mother daughter duo of naomi and why known judd broke in one thousand nine hundred eighty four with the country chart topper mama. He's crazy their first of eight consecutive country number once in that world. The judds were megastars in the pop world. No juds album could crack the top fifty. The same went for the newly minted soon to be legendary george strait oh rows. This song does fort worth ever cross. Your mind was streets. Sixth country number one out of a staggering forty four country number one's across his career and all time chart record but not only did streets. Eighties hits come nowhere near the hot one hundred his albums from the era all of them eventually platinum peaked below the top eighty on the album chart george strait's brand of country came to be called new traditional ism a mid eighties term coined specifically to differentiate it from the now disdained country pop sound of the early eighties circa urban cowboy wounded by their rejection. By the pop mainstream country artists went back to the music's roots with such artists as country. Bluegrass multi instrumentalist ricky skaggs conference fellow. Bluegrass trained player keith. Whitley don't burn and bakersfield sound revivalist. Dwight yoakam who's biggest hit paired him with country. Legend buck on the streets. Or what about oklahoma reba. Mcentire a singer who'd been hitting the country charts since the late seventies. She gradually refined her sound to a blend of country pop balladry and more traditional elements and scored some of her biggest hits cultivating a loyal audience akin to george springs but the megastar of new traditionalism was the sturdy voiced singer randy travis who came the closest of any late. Dvd's country star to crossing fully into the means that the is at a time when country hitmaker's albums lucky. Gold travis generated string multi-platinum albums his biggest hit de gentle to step forever and ever amen even scored some airplay on heartland pop stations and video channel. V h eddie. Talk about new. Traditional ism flourished in the late eighties because there just wasn't much upside in trying to blend country with straight ahead pop when nashville band restless heart crossed over to the hot one hundred in nineteen eighty seven with their stately ballad. I'll be loving you. It was the only record of its kind to make pop radio at the time. The industry in nashville was stunned. That restless heart crossed over at all. Even then i'll still be loving you. Peaked on the hot one hundred at modest number. Thirty three and a half decade of new traditionalism eventually culminated in the nineteen eighty-nine success of the genial toothsome texan clint black widely perceived as the great mass market. Hope of country going into the nineties. Clint black's one thousand. Nine hundred eighty nine album. Killing time went double platinum rare for a country. Lp at the time by anyone other than randy travis and it generated a stunning four. One country hits out of the box. Remarkable for a newcomer. Clint black was country to the core but he deftly bridged the divide between the traditionalist and a new generation of arena friendly. But while clint black was tearing up the country charts in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine and ninety riding alongside him with considerably. Less attention at first was another newcomer. An oklahoma in denim and a wide brimmed hat with a plaintiff. But spicer going sound a yelping lonesome voice and melody to spare this newcomers very first hit much too young to feel this damn old was just breaking into the country. Top ten in the summer of nineteen eighty nine. This and this singer more than clint black was the true harbinger of country in the nineties. He would make the divide between country pop and traditional ism moot and he was just getting started. I've been using amazon music for a while and it's been excellent from the start but it just got better for a limited time you can get your first three months of amazon music unlimited free. That's access to seventy million songs so you can play the songs you want when you want on demand and add free four free. For three months and amazon music still has over a million podcast episodes at no charge along with thousands of stations and top playlists one artist. Who's exclusive to amazon music. Unlimited is garth brooks while researching. My hip rate episode is streamed his catalog on amazon music and heard songs by him. I'd never heard before. I think you're going to love amazon music unlimited as much as i do take advantage of this incredible offer today for a limited time. You can get three months of amazon music. Unlimited for free go to amazon dot com slash hit parade that's amazon dot com slash hit parade to get your first. Three months of amazon music for free starts at seven ninety nine a month. After new subscribers only terms apply offer expires january. First twenty twenty one. You finally decided to learn how to ice skate. So you ordered the essentials. Every ice skater needs a pair of blades. A new helmet and a good set of kneepads. And you used your bank of america. Cash rewards credit card choosing to earn three percent cashback online shopping rewards that you put towards the cost of an essential piece of post skating recovery. A heating pad visit bank of america dot com slash. More going to apply now. Copyright twenty twenty bank of america corporation growing up in yukon oklahoma garth brooks by his own. Admission listened more to rock than country music in particular he was inspired by the soft rock proffered by the writers. Like james taylor. And dan fogelberg and his is a and it was only after young garth heard george street. Circa nineteen eighty-one that brooks became convinced he should pursue countries by the time brooks broke into the top ten on the country chart in nineteen eighty-nine with much too young to feel this damn old. Why brooks had already spent several prior years in nashville looking for his break. If came in nineteen eighty seven after he played the legendary music city venue. The bluebird cafe several songwriters brooks met at the bluebird would wind up supplying him with songs. A vital connection in a town is fueled by. Songwriting as nashville. These writers included kent blazey. Who teamed with brooks to co. Write his first number one hit if tomorrow sheamus phase that his love this fusion of soft rock allah dan fogelberg and plaintive country allah george strait was a potent sound for brooks. He came up through nashville. During the new traditionalists era but brooks was no purist and the songs on his self titled debut album garth brooks were infused with his mass appeal sensibilities. Pop was baked in. But it wasn't courting top forty listeners. Liked stuff from a decade earlier dance we. She garth's traditional but accessible approach was most apparent on the garth brooks albums. Last single and biggest. Hit a song that you could easily picture fogelberg singing penned by fellow bluebird alumnus tony harada. The dance became brooks signature. Ballot would all would go. The danced spent three weeks at number one on the hot country singles chart in the summer of nineteen ninety a three week run on top of the country chart impressive for a brand new artist. The prior year nineteen eighty-nine. No country single had spent more than two weeks at number one brooks moved quickly to follow up his successful debut. He had a second in the can when the summer of nineteen ninety was barely over and he led it off with what turned out to be his most iconic song. Friends in low places is a barn. Busting hard-drinking sing-along honky-tonk anthem. A rowdy witty song about a man who's leading a beard chase his blues away and only pretending to apologize for being day. Say critic chuck close chairman. Later wrote quote singing along with friends in low places was like drunkenly laughing at a rich person. And knowing that you were right garth told stories about blue collar people who felt good about what they're bad life. Symbols lack was own. Van have been there less than a month after the dance. Peaked on hot country. Singles friends in low places stormed up the chart reaching number one in october nineteen ninety. It stayed there for four weeks in the middle of its run up. The chart brooks released his sophomore album no fences which shot to number one on the country albums chart in just three weeks knocking out. Clint black's blockbuster. Killing time brooks now had both the top country single and album in america for the first time no fences remains garth brooks all time bestselling album certified for sales of eighteen million in the us alone it was the album on which brooks perfected his blend of tradition minded pedal steel fiddle country crossed with seventies. Ask soft rock melodies brooks his band and co songwriters. Were able to translate the sound of say. Old james taylor records a young cow into wistful bromides about small town life like the number. One country hit unanswered prayers. Just the other at a hometown. Football gang my life nara brooks also channeled the sound and spirit of vintage eagles or aerosmith. On the album's rock inflected opener. The thunder rolls cinematic story. Song about marriage gone mall zero. Strive other logos all but was still amiss with brooks's billboard chart performance and all country hitmaker's country albums were starting to sell about as well as they had in the urban cowboy era but on the billboard ads chart country albums couldn't get a break they would peak well below the top ten whereas pop and rock albums of similar or even lesser stature. Were charting much higher. Here's an example. The same week garth brooks no fences debuted on the album chart in september nineteen ninety. So did the latest album by metal band queens right. I'm not picking up. Their empire. Album was legitimately huge and deserved to go platinum. And it did by the spring of nineteen ninety-one queen's reich album was certified for a million in sales and it was sitting in the top ten on the pop albums chart but garth no fences again. An album with the same number of weeks on the chart was triple platinum and yet to date. No fences had never gone higher than number. Fifteen and while queen's reich was in the top ten brooks by april had dropped back into the mid thirties this despite the fact that brooks was racking up his third number one country hit from the album. Two of a kind working on the house or to known was the flagship billboard album chart we call it the pop album chart but really it's an old chart wasn't biased against country music. It certainly seemed like it but that was all about to change in past episodes of hip parade. I have talked about the chart. Revolution brought about in nineteen ninety-one by the launch of sound scan the barcode scanning retail technology that accurately tallied music sales in record stores for billboard when i talk about why soundscan was so important to the evolution and accuracy of the billboard charts. I often talk about raft died albums like public enemies. It takes a nation of millions to hold us back. Were hard done by the old chart system which relied on the vagaries of retailer sales reports and underrepresented the huge sales of hip hop p. Es album went platinum but it crack the billboard album charts. Top forty or and w as straight outta compton which went double platinum but couldn't break into the top third arguably country artists had it just as bad as the rappers on the charts country albums would go gold platinum even multi-platinum and go nowhere near the top of the charts. The music industry. Which was heavily skewed. Toward america's coasts had for years overstated the sales of rock and pop and understated the popularity of country and drop soundscan which launched on the billboard two hundred album chart in may of nineteen ninety one eliminated that bias against rap and country for good and no single artists benefited more from this chart revolution than north winds law. The very first week soundscan came online. Garth's no fences album hurdled into the top. Ten reaching a new peak of number four it would later reach number. Three charts are feedback loops. They tell the music industry. What kinds of music are popular so they can make them more popular. It's widely perceived that the advent of truly accurate counting allowed the industry to perceive. Just how popular country and garth brooks were for the first time and promote him according to you and the thunder while the thunder rolls hit number one on the hot country. Singles chart fueled by a controversial music video in which brooks played an abusive husband in a fake beard glasses and wig. The no fences album spent the rest of the summer in around the top. Ten as it was certified quadruple and then quintupled platinum heading into the fall of nineteen. Ninety-one brooks was preparing to release a third album that would affirm whether his chart success was a soundscan fueled fluke but the music industry was paying more attention to the imminent release of an album by a rock band there was expected to dominate the fall. Season actually two hours hard rock band guns and roses had made fans wait more than four years for a proper full length. Follow up to their multi-platinum smash appetite for destruction in nineteen ninety-one. The band announced that follow up was finally ready and it would be two cds not one issued as a pair of separate albums on the same day. Use your allusion one and use your illusion to media coverage for the gm are dual album release in mid september nineteen. Ninety-one reached fever. Pitch music stores announced midnight sales for the to use your illusion cds and the discs widely expected to debut on top of the billboard album chart but while all this hype was mounting. The media hadn't taken much notice that an album released the week before guns and roses had already talked hands. Its earth antonetti. The rain and enjoyed the college rope in the wind. Garth brooks is third album arrived atop the billboard. Two hundred in its first week. It was not only the first country album ever to debut at number one. It was also the first country title to top. Billboard's flagship adam chart at all since kenny rogers greatest hits more than ten years earlier. Rupin the winds lead single rodeo was already in the hot country singles top five on its way to number three. Why on the album chart while guns and roses did indeed debut at number one the following week with use your illusion to their illusion. One debuted runner-up slot guns only held the top of the album chart for two weeks before brooks's rope in the wind went right back to number one and stayed there for most of the fall. It appeared that brooks was not only galvanizing countries loyal listeners but bringing along new fans perhaps his latest hit song written by guy who live far from national. Had something to do with that. You know now. I'm not a zebra insecure about the world near a jawbreaker chinos reached the top of hot country singles in november nineteen ninety-one. I talked about shameless in hit parade earlier this year in our episode about this. Give me billy joel. Groat and i recorded shameless for his nineteen eighty nine album storm front. It was a deep cut. Never released as a single by joel but garth brooks its potential and the country. Friendliness of the song he'd been playing it live for months and saw it go over with his crowd. So he can vince his producer allen reynolds to let him record holder. It comes down and it was a standout on the album right away and not just with country listeners. in the fall of nineteen ninety-one more than a dozen pop stations began spinning. Garth's shameless alongside. The likes of bryan adams boys to men and paula. Abdul like run dmc. Cover of aerosmith's walk this way in nineteen eighty six albeit on a smaller scale. Garth's cover of billy. Joel was a song or crossover meeting fans out of listeners. They're accustomed to walk. Adam thomas stanton funnily enough garth's label wasn't actively promoting shameless to top forty radio and the crossover didn't interest them all that much. Brooks's team was very wary of moving beyond the country audience. Ten years after the boom and bust of the urban cowboy fat speaking to billboard on brooks's behalf about the pop radio attention his co-manager and publishers said quote. If it happens it happens. It's not something we're trying to generate. Let him us this skin in any case team garth didn't need court pop fans rope. The wind was a monster in instantly. Certified quadruple platinum just two months after release from the fall of nineteen ninety one through the spring of nineteen ninety-two it spent eighteen weeks on top of the all genre billboard two hundred album chart and at country radio the album generated five hits including the number three papa loved mama and the number ones the river and what she's doing now skis open. The wind was eventually certified for sales of fourteen million copies. Which by the way was as much as those two guns and roses album sold combined. Billboard would rank rope and the wind as the top seller among both country albums and pop albums for all of nineteen ninety-two by nineteen ninety two. It was clear that garth brooks had opened the floodgates for country artists on the charts the soundscan fueled billboard two hundred now accurately reflecting just how popular country albums work with or without a big pop audience. The younger half of country duo the judds. why no recording. Under only her first name like madonna or share launched a solo career in nineteen ninety two and saw instant success why known as debut album reached number four on the billboard two hundred and was triple platinum within a year and she wasn't the only country newcomer dominating the charts by some measures. Billy ray cyrus was an even bigger crossover success in nineteen ninety two. Lynn garth brooks unlike garth. Billy ray actually did court pop fans with his line dancing earworm achey breaky heart. It not only topped the hot country singles chart it sold well enough to reach number four on the hot one hundred pop chart achey break. You heart was such a phenomenon that sent cyrus album. Some gave all to number one on the billboard. Two hundred where it spent seventeen consecutive weeks on top and eventually went nine times platinum. Billy ray success even spawned an urban cowboy style line dance fat complete with specific steps and it was followed by other line dance. Friendly hits like boot scoot and boogie by brooks and dunn down in the sense garth brooks had made all of this conceivable let alone possible by one thousand nine hundred ninety two and that was when he decided to use his clout to make a last forged words as i said at the top of our show the number twelve hit we shall be free was brooks in full on social protest mode and it was his first major single to receive pushback country stations. Were leery about playing the pro equality anti racist and anti-homophobia song at the very least out of a desire not to take sides in a presidential election year. This explains why the never hotter brooks missed the top ten with this single in. The fall of ninety two still brooks was using his imperial chart status. And if you will political capital to make a statement on the scale of protest music we shall be free is no the times they are changing or a change is gonna come. It's considerably better than accidental racist. However regardless of the song's merits it was a sign. Garth brooks could to a point. Now do whatever he wants. Shadow shall be free was the lead single to brooks's fourth album the chase and the only thing that had changed by nineteen ninety two was the brooks was now expected to debut atop the billboard two hundred album chart and of course he did the chase sailed in at number one just as its second single the more conventional country ballot somewhere other than the night was on. Its way to number one somewhere. Other than seen stu gear in fact the chase sold so well in. Its first two months that had prevented. Rem's new album automatic for the people. There follow up to the nineteen ninety-one smash out of time from reaching number one on the album chart rem's eventual drubel platinum or had to settle for number two a couple of weeks after that brooks's the chase stopped madonna's hotly anticipated album erotica from topping the chart. If to peaked at number two this became the powder for garth brooks every fall. He would release a new album and it would not only debut at number one but warm a more hotly anticipated pop or rock album in late. Nineteen ninety-three brooks debuted on top with in pieces. His fifth studio album and third chart topper it generated five top ten country hits including the number one rave ups ain't going down till the sun comes up and american honky. Tonk bar association station hard by staying at number one for more than a month in pieces held back the nineteen ninety-three album by pop be uber star mariah carey. Her cd music box had to wait until christmas to talk. The trump speaking of christmas brooks got ahead of kerry there to future queen of christmas. Mariah wouldn't record her storied holiday album until nineteen ninety. Four brooks issued his christmas disc beyond the season. Two years free. Mistletoe is hung trees and garth's christmas album peaked higher on the billboard. Two hundred reaching number two carries merry. Christmas topped out at number. Three every move brooks made was a savvy feeding of his fan base and a clever move to dominate the charts an avid billboard reader and industry observer garth had opinions on all aspects of the business for example as quaint as this now sounds in nineteen ninety-three one of the hot topics in the music. Business was over used cds at a time when the compact disc was five to seven dollars more expensive than the lp or cassette found consumers. Happy to sell back their old discs to stores and shop for other used discs at cut rate prices. The record industry hated used cds because they made no money off of them and so it turned out. Did both brooks fits in. Just do stand outside. When a coalition of record labels announced a plan to eliminate cooperative advertising with retailers. Who sold used cds brooks doubled down a few months before his in pieces album came out he announced. He wouldn't sell it on cd at any retailer. That dealt in used product brooks framed it as a fight for musicians song writers and producers the media portrayed it as greek artists didn't normally take sides in such arcane industry issues in essence garth's move was like metallica taking on napster or taylor swift taking on spotify years before those fights happened. The fact that brooks even had an opinion on was remarkable outside stan anywhere. Even with certain retailers left out of the launch of in brooks's nineteen ninety-three album. Did great business. It opened to the best numbers of brooks's career to date. As with we shall be free. Garth could get away with stances other acts would just as soon. Avoid incidentally used cds also didn't help brooks's position on the charts or his platinum certifications and this even beyond the loss of royalties might have been his ultimate motivation. Brooks was a fierce competitor. And he didn't want to compete in arenas where he didn't stand a chance of winning. That included the hot one hundred singles chart be as i chronicle three years ago in our great war against the single edition of hit parade. The biggest story on the charts in the nineties was the music businesses quiet campaign to kill off retail singles and try to force sales of full length cds for all of the hot one hundred's history through the mid nineties billboard required a retail single release for a hit to appear on the chart so enormous nineties radio hits that warrant issued a singles like the rembrandts theme from. Tv's friends or no doubts. Don't speak he's hits. Were invisible on the hot one hundred even when they were. The most played songs at radio still even acts like no doubt or the rembrandts did issue singles occasionally but for garth brooks not releasing retail. Singles was even more strategic for one thing. The hot country chart didn't require a retail release in fact that charts full title was hot country singles and tracks indicating that many of its hits were tracks available only on albums brooks could dominate this chart and still sell truckloads of albums by not issuing singles but there was another factor issuing singles would have made garth songs eligible to appear on the hot one hundred except then those tracks would have to compete with big papi and as country songs garth's singles would be at a disadvantage why allow his hits to peak on the hot one hundred somewhere below the number one spot the top ten or even a top forty in a big son gums in multiple interviews brooks took particular pride at the fact that he was achieving all his sales records while sticking close to country fans not courting pop listeners and inviting the pop fans to come over to his side of the radio dial he remembered what happened when country stars went hard after pop listeners in the early eighties and how that story by one thousand nine hundred and ninety four country musicals thriving with multiple acts going multi-platinum and pop listeners. Were beside them daddy. Water for example alan jackson's chatahoochee. A wistful reminiscence about summer spent on a river near jackson's georgia hometown was the number one country song in one thousand. Nine hundred eighty three and jackson actually did issue it as a retail single which went gold but on the hot one hundred chattahoochee peaked. Just below the top forty given its limited airplay beyond country stations. That was confirmation. That garth brooks was wise to avoid that pop competition still. Alan jackson couldn't have been unhappy his album a lot about living and a little about love went triple platinum in nineteen ninety-three and kept on selling two years later jackson's Was sex topple platinum other acts. That had stuck it out. Through countries late. Eighty sales slump like reba. Mcentire saw their albums hitting new chart and sales peaks mcintyre's nineteen ninety four album read. My mind reached number two on the billboard. Two hundred and went triple platinum. The week mcintyre peaked at number two sitting right above her was a new country singer. Tim mcgraw whose debut album not a moment too soon spent a fortnight at number one on the chart and went quadruple. Platinum within a year and mcgraw wasn't the only relative newcomer topping charleston. John michael montgomery a singer on only his second reached number one on the billboard two hundred with his kicking it up featuring nine hundred and ninety four 's biggest country hit. I swear if you're a pop fan who remembers the nineties and this song sounds oddly familiar to you. That's because it also topped the hot one hundred but not in john. Michael montgomery's version the boy band. All for one recorded the same song and took is swear to the top of the hot one hundred. This only reinforced that country and pop were parallel platinum. World's a country song could be a pop song and vice versa. But unlike the urban cowboy era each was succeeding in its own arena audience. Crossover by the same recording wasn't strictly necessary. As for garth brooks he closed nineteen ninety four with a victory lap. His first greatest hits collection for years brooks had resisted pleas for a compilation from fans and his label capital nashville fearing it might cannibalize sales of his studio albums. Which were still selling like. All get cleverly brooks agreed to put out a collection under the no frills title the hits on the condition that it would be a limited edition. Looks the cd was even printed with the phrase limited time. Only on the cover. Garth's gambit worked arriving just days before christmas nineteen ninety-four the hits sold in the millions and topped the billboard. Two hundred for eight weeks in early nineteen ninety five yet again. It outsold the most highly anti rock album of the holiday season. Pearl jam's third album by talent. There was one other. Well hyped rock album in nineteen ninety-four that garth brooks is. The hits handily outsold that christmas a beatles. Compilation called live at the bbc. Baby baby is. This wasn't too surprising. Even if brooks was outselling the biggest rochman of time live at the bbc was an unusual collection of vintage performances from the fab. Four's early days. It contained very few of their hits and it was packed with bits of light comedy and short interview for any other band. A collection of curios. Like this one might have sold only to the devoted because it was the beatles. It went quadruple platinum. Still garth's the hits charted higher and sold better than live at. The bbc perhaps outselling the beatles during the holiday season of nineteen ninety. Four made garth brooks feel fairly invincible. Because the next year he tried something similar stab- and it didn't work out too. And i will say this view the river on dry of bird when we come back. How garth brooks finally met his match on the album chart and in the all time record books never a non slate plus listeners will hear the rest of this episode in two weeks for now. I hope you've been enjoying this episode of hip parade. Our show was written edited and narrated by christmas. That's me my producer for this episode. Is benjamin fresh and we also had help from rosemary bells special. Thanks to music critic. Stephen thomas erlewine for invaluable research support on this episode. June thomas is the senior managing producer. And gabriel roth the editorial director of sleep podcasts. Check out their roster of shows at sleep dot com slash podcast. You can subscribe to hit parade wherever you get your podcasts. In addition to finding it in the sleet culture feed. If you're subscribing on apple podcasts. Please rate and review us while you're there it helps other listeners. Find the show. Thanks for listening. And i look forward to leading the hit parade back. Your we'll see you for part two in a couple of weeks until then keep on marching on the one. I'm for small lack these waters.

brooks garth brooks bank of america garth three percent clint black nashville amazon america travolta charlie rich olivia newton john travolta Fever thirty five dollars george strait slate magazine chris melinda Billy ray oklahoma
March 3 - Sen. Mark Warner, Rep. Jim Jordan and the latest NBC/WSJ poll

NBC Meet the Press

47:51 min | 2 years ago

March 3 - Sen. Mark Warner, Rep. Jim Jordan and the latest NBC/WSJ poll

"This Sunday battlelines Michael Cohen tells congress what he thinks of President Trump using racist. He's conman in Houston sheet and provides new areas for investigators to look at from Jared, Nevada to Mr. Trump's tax return, Republicans attack Cohen, you live allies to our Aligarh liar. Liar pants on fire and President Trump tells a conservative conference what he thinks of all the investigators and all of a sudden they trying to take you out with both. I'll talk to the vice chairman of the Senate intelligence committee democrat Mark Warner and to the ranking Republican on the house oversight committee, Jim Jordan, plus Democrats and activists are arguing over impeaching the president impeachment of this corrupt and lawless president is a first step impeachment is a divisive issue in a country. And let us see what the facts are debating purity tests for democratic members of congress and disagreeing over what's more important to them in two thousand. Twenty a candidate who shares their views or one who simply could beat President Trump and finally no deal. The president walks away without an agreement with Kim Jong UN on nukes and sanctions sometimes you have to walk. This was just one of those times. So what happens now join any for insight and analysis on Helene Cooper Pentagon correspondent for the New York Times that by national political columnist for Yahoo news NBC news, national political reporter, Heidi press, Bella and John pot Hornets editor of commentary walk into Sunday. It's meet the press. From NBC news in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is the press Chuck. Sunday morning to be fair. We've lost count of the number of times, we've been tempted to say that this or that week was the most consequential of the Trump presidency, but this week certainly is worthy of consideration. Consider we saw President Trump's former lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen testify before congress about alleged illegal activity by Mr. Trump as president. We saw House Republicans ignore all of Coen's charges and fiercely attack Coen's credibility. We saw the Hanoi summit with Kim Jong UN fall apart with no agreement. We saw an emerging controversy over how Jared Kushner received his top secret security clearance. We saw the house vote to reverse the president's national emergency declaration. And then yesterday, we saw a president who seem both energized by his crowd at a conservative conference and simultaneously unnerved by everything that's happening around him in the longest speech of his presidency before an during CPAC audience, Mr. Trump was eager or maybe desperate. To recount every success every controversy and every grievance of his presidency. Grouch is negotiating with China. I'm building the wall, and we got rid of the individual mandate religious liberty lion James Comey, socialism, the collusion delusion those caravans initial emergency would be invaded by drugs by people by criminals, phony charges of Russia. Russia Russia Russia, Russia, the manic performance complete with expletives seemed like a fitting end to a week like few others, Mr. Trump's presidency. I heard this morning. President Trump is waiting for the Muller report. With Muller's report expected any day. President Trump delivered an agitated one hundred and twenty two minutes speech to conservative activists on Saturday railing against the special counsel. Now, Robert Muller. Never received a vote and his own Justice department for leaving Muller in place. And as you know, the attorney general says, I'm going to recuse myself, you put the wrong people in a couple of physicians, and they leave people for a long time that shouldn't be there. And all of a sudden, they're trying to take you out with okay? Also attacked his former lawyer Michael Cohen, he's a stone cold killer. He's a brutal man that I am no longer your fixer, Mr. Trump in a riveting public spectacle this week Cohen turned on his former boss and signalled a new phase in the Russia. Pro Cohen allege that President Trump paid hush money to adult film. Actress stormy Daniels a crime while in office. There were eleven checks that I received for the year he's alleged that Roger stone alerted Mr. Trump ahead of time in July of twenty sixteen that WikiLeaks emails were coming Rhona Graff yelled out to Mr. Trump Rogers online one he alleged that attorneys for the president as well as Jared Kushner, reviewed his false testimony to congress last year about the Trump Tower Moscow project in advance because Mr. Trump had made clear to me to his personal statements to me that we both knew to be false and through his lies to the country. That he wanted me to life. Cohen also said federal prosecutors in New York are looking at what the president said to him after they searched his office last year. This topic is actually something that's being investigated right now by the southern district of New York, and I've been asked by them not to discuss it and Cohen directed. Congressional investigators toward potential key witnesses, including the president's former employees and family members Democrats were quick to seize on the president's alleged crime. He saw evidence really of crimes free, but lost some democratic activists press for impeachment impeachment of this corrupt and lawless. President is a first step top Democrats are putting the brakes on insisting that for now they will continue existing investigations but stopped short of calling them in peach mint hearings. Now, one person one person on our side even mentioned the word impeachment not one instead. Head it's Republicans seeking to energize their base who are enthusiastically embracing the I word the impeachment patient yesterday was all about Michael Cohen being can sorta laying the predicates from the Democrats, and they're crazy and crazy impeachment plans. And joining me now is the vice chair of the Senate intelligence committee. Mark corner Virginia. Senator Warner welcome back to meet the press. Thank you check. You also interviewed Michael Cohen this week. I think you had them the day before his house testament nine hours nine hours fair enough. So and we had a pretty much an eight or nine hour public hearing. So how was the exchange behind closed doors different than what the public's on Wednesday? Well, first of all, let's realize this is a guy who was back before us because he had lied to our intelligence committee about the fact that the ongoing negotiations on a tower to be built in Moscow went way beyond when he said, and frankly what Donald Trump send. And I do think it's curious that mister Trump has spent more than a decade trying to Bill. Build a building in Moscow. Didn't get much traction suddenly becomes a candidate for president. And he's got all kinds of offers said the only thing he lied about that, you know, of right now, again, we've got the three things that are in the public domain that. I think we need further investigation. How long were the negotiations going on for Trump Tower Moscow? Obviously beyond January did the beyond even the convention the president floor Rudy Giuliani said they may have gone on to all the way through the election. I think most voters would have liked to have known that piece of information before they voted. Secondly, this allegation is that a crime though. Well, it's not not necessarily a climate let lawyers making determination on that. But it would be sure Secca relevant fact that a candidate for president was trying to negotiate with a foreign power Russia offering the leader of that foreign power, Putin, a fifty million dollar free penthouse. I think most Americans. Would say that's a relevant piece of information. The other two pieces of information that I think we need more on Mr. Trump is said he didn't know anything about the WikiLeaks. Dump of information detrimental to Clinton. Mr Collins says that he was in the office when Trump took a call from Julian Assange right a day or two before the dump of the information, we need to find out if that's true or not. And then we also heard testimony that Donald Trump junior at least indicated the Donald Trump about the infamous now Trump Tower meeting that included his trip the president sun, the president's son-in-law the president's campaign manager again that many was not about Russian adoptions. It was about offering dirt on Hillary Clinton. We need to find out of all those things. Trump was your entire focus of your portion of Michael Cohen only about the Russia portion or did you also spend time in the Trump organization and the various outside of Russia parameters that you've been focused on some of those facts came up some of the Todd drian inappropriate behavior, some of the payoffs, but that was not something that we focused on our investigation. Is the only bipartisan investigation that still focused on counterintelligence? What happened in twenty sixteen what level of collaboration collusion? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again in the future? Why do you believe Michael Cohen suddenly telling you the truth now when he lied to you this guy does not have a lot of veracity? We need to get documents. We are receiving additional documents from him to true prove or disprove. But I'd also say Donald Trump doesn't exactly have a great record of telling the truth as well. I want to play something that you're the chair of the committee said not too long ago. Richard Burr, take a listen. Well, I'm not sure how to put it any clearer than that said it before we have no factual evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. What does that mean, no factual evidence? Well again. Rishon barn. I have worked together. Very well. We're going to continue to work together. I think there is enormous amounts of evidence. What you do with that evidence where it leads. I'm reserving my judgment until we finish the call it circumstantial right now. Let's go just go through the litany of what we know the ongoing negotiations about Trump Tower well into the campaign, I believe the fact that Mr. Trump knew about the the dump of the WikiLeaks material the fact that clearly the meeting at Trump Tower meeting, which was not described appropriately. In terms of offering turn the the president's campaign manager sharing information poli information with the Russians. The earlier instance were Russians were offering through one of the campaigns popadopoulos information to me that's all evidence where that evidence leads in terms of collusion conclusion. And we've still got some of those key people come back. I'm going to reserve judgment till I'm finished. But the anybody could there's no. That could factually say there's not plenty of evidence of collaboration or communications between Trump organization and Russians. There's a report in the Washington Post that indicates that your committee in the house intelligence committee that one other angle to Michael Cohen testimony has to do with a pardon are pardon shopping. What can you more? Can you? Tell us about this issue. Are you investigating whether a pardon offer with serious or not to Michael Cohen check. I cannot comment on what went on and classified setting. I say this because at some point it's starting to become you know. You know, I it it comes across his innuendo when you can't say certain things. And yet we see reports about it. When we when we receive information in a classified setting. We will investigate things that come up in classified settings. There will be an appropriate time to have the reveal. But when we hear things and classified setting, you know, that's that's the duty. I took on his vice chairman and intelligence, so you won't say where this Washington Post story is correct or not I'm not I'm not going to comment on the story. All right. I wanna throw another sound bite that you from the president yesterday. Take a listen. Use your rights. Geez. You power. If you use article too, it's called obstruction? But only for Trump for nobody else. So he's basically saying his firing of James. I mean, this is about the firing of James Comey that you cannot interpret that under any way as obstruction is that fair. Well, I'll let lawyers make better judgments, but I will tell you this investigation into the president and his organization his campaign involvement with Russians of foreign power. A foreign adversarial power a power that this president has said nary a negative word about a Russian despot that he frankly kowtow to in front of the whole world in that hearing in that. Public testimony public hearing in Helsinki. I think that's inappropriate and the notion that this president has done everything possible to undermine that investigation from firing Komei to trying to undermine Muller. To me that does not seem appropriate. You believe that Russian a Russian conspiracy without a actual evidence of a crime being committed of a crime being committed is enough to oust him from office. You're going to get me into those conversations where I've not reached a final conclusion what I do know this. I've been around politics a long time, just as you have you. I have never in my lifetime seeing a presidential campaign from a person of either party have this much outreach to a foreign country and a foreign country that the intelligence community, and our committee has validated intervened massively in our election and intervene with an attempt to help one candidate Donald Trump and to hurt another candidate. Hillary sounds like you've made some clues. That's you're close to a conclus-. Those are the facts that we have all agreed to on a bipartisan basis, what level of collaboration collusion cooperation. We've clearly got repeated efforts from the Russians we clearly have evidence from Donald Trump's own son saying he would welcome that information. But again, I'm going to reserve my final judgment to we collect all the information, and candidly some. The key people that we wanna see are still taught caught up in the molar criminal investigations, and those criminal investigations need to conclude before we get a chance to talk to them. Mark Warner the top democrat on the Senate intelligence committee. Thanks for coming on shore. New too much. Thank you at that. Michael Cohen hearing on Wednesday. Republican members of the house oversight committee defended President Trump largely by attacking Cohen who has admitted to lying to congress. And no one was more on message and the ranking member of that committee, Jim Jordan, and you have a history of lying over and over and over again, and frankly, don't take my word for it. Take what the court said take what the southern district of New York said Cohen. Did crimes that were marked by a pattern of deception, and that permeated his professional life a pattern of deception for personal greed and Embiid, and you just got thirty minutes of an opening statement where you trashed the president of the United States of America, Republican congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio joins me. Now Thompson toward welcome. And meet the press to be with you. Why do you think President Trump hired somebody like Michael Cohen as close confidante for a decade? This Cohen said it was some real estate deal ten twelve years ago white hired him. I don't know what I do know is what I said at the hearing. And that is Michael cone is going to prison in two months for four distinct federal crimes one a which is lying to congress. And yet the Democrats made him their star witness there, I announce witness of the hundred and sixteenth congresses a guy who was going to prison for lying to congress. And guess what he came in last Wednesday, and did what lied to congress limited time letter, the lead attorney for him, and essentially unofficial political adviser. For decade is this person. You just described. We could we even when he took credit for launching pain singer bother you that Donald Trump surrounded him. I kept this man as a confidante for everything you've described him as why did he keep them as a confidante you'd have to ask the you'd have to ask that bother? You not really doesn't does doesn't. What what what I know is what the president's done is two years as president of the United States think the Democrats number one top with the press never seems to want to talk about this thinking about the two years under President Trump's leadership taxes reduce regulations. Reduce economy growing an unbelievable rate. Lowest unemployment in fifty years Gorsuch in cabinet on the court where out of the Iran deal embassies in Jerusalem, hostages home from North Korea. And by the way, there's a new NAFTA agreement coming just to name a few things. So that's what I tend to focus on is the amazing record. We've seen into the leadership of President Trump. And you guys want to talk about a lawyer that worked for him for ten years. It came in and told all kinds of lies six of which he said six lies, which he said on the witness stand just last week. Let me ask you this. Do you? Leave Michael Cohen said there was no collusion with Russia. I believe a few things Michael Cohen said like he said in the hearing my name is Michael dean Cohen, I believe that. There's probably a few other things that we can prove he seemed believe he's never been to Prague. He said that. And that's something you can verify that you can passports you can look at travel. So that undermines this whole dossier, which remember was the basis for this whole crazy investigation to begin with. So that's not. I mean that that isn't the facts say, it's a big fat. It is something that you we've had something that you believe, but it is not improve it. No. It's the league thing they took to the fisa court to get the warranty. Go spot on the Trump campaign, and by the way. Tom, even prove it. We got these papers released to the public. You've you've found out that the that wasn't. Yes. Yes. It is. And they didn't tell the court that the Clinton campaign. Never forget, what happened there the Clinton campaign paid the law firm Perkins coup who hired fusion GPS who hired a foreigner. And whether that four hundred to talk to a couple of you were left out the Republican dossier together long FBI used to go. Get the warrant to spy on the pain. Why do you not want? This investigation concluded by Robert Muller. I want to conclude on when old whip, but there's much continue to you continue to question and interfere with it. So how is it ever going to end? If you question interfere with it. I'm not question interfere with. I I've just it's going to be public. The president said he wants to to continue. He's allowed to continue is going to continue at some point. They'll be some investigation. And then the attorney general Bill bar will decide we'll follow the law and release what he wants to release them maybe released the whole thing that's going to happen. We all know that completely released. Donald Trump junior. Does. I'm I'm open to whatever the attorney general decides he should follow the law. He's followed the regulations, and if they're released at all I tend to think err on the side of transparency I've been for that all along I want the FIS applications release. I want to throw to from Roussel I want all that information released. So we can get to the bottom of the American people can know exactly what happened when they launched distinct. You believe the Russians interfered with the two thousand sixteen election. Everyone said that they thought they were trying to impact the election. You believe it the question Muller, you believe it. Yeah. I mean, of course, that's what the intelligence community told us. But there is you believe they did it to Donald Trump win. Who knows why they did it? But there's zero evidence that is positive. It sounds like you believe it's possible that Russians for their own foreign policy reasons wanna Trump not. Why would I don't know? I mean, they can they can do whatever they whatever they're trying to do who knows what their motives were what I know is there's not one bit of evidence to show any type of coordination collusion conspiracy whatsoever. Between the Trump campaign and Russia to impact the election. But. But there is all kinds of evidence to show that the Clinton campaign work with Russians to impact the elections via that whole thing. I just described where they hired Perkins coup law firm who hired fusion who hired a foreigner. Christopher Steele who communicated with Russians and put together the fake dossier. Why do you think that Donald Trump hired somebody like Paul Manafort with ties to Russian mobsters? Why do you think that Paul Manafort decided to work for free for the Trump campaign have no idea any of that bother you? But you gotta remember. With the Russian government. I'm just does none of that disasters scrutiny, and is getting all kinds of scrutiny for goodness sake. Mr. Manafort, spin indicted, so it was getting all kinds of snowbird new believe it deserves scrutiny. Well, that's what the special counsel is doing. He's that's his call. Not my call. So. Yeah. If if they're looking at all that that's fine. But that's not what this Wednesday was about. This was a guy coming in who has zero credibility, and who has lied in is going to prison for lying. One of those lies, of course, was lying to congress previously. And guess what you did he came in front of congress and told at least at least six different law. You are very concerned about it. A lot of the line. Does it bother you that Paul Manafort, George popadopoulos, Michael Flynn, Michael Cohen, all these people around the president all these people around the city has all been convicted or pled guilty. These me most you either investigators are congress. Here's what a lot of liars around the president was it bothers me most Jim Komi director of the FBI fired. Andy, McCabe, deputy director Europe. That he was fired. No, listen, lied three times under oath Andy McCabe is under investigation. Jim Baker chief counsel at the FBI demoted then left under investigation by the Justice department. Peter Struck deputy head account or intelligence demoted, then fired Lisa page FBI council. Demoted fire chose people off the relevant TI does the president surround himself with people who can't. You're not answering. My question. Himself with people who can't tell the truth the law enforcement of congress win have you ever seen an agency where the top five people who by the way, Chuck ran the Clinton investigation launched and ran the Russian investigation have either been fired demoted or left the FBI the top people. Again, it doesn't you have an answer. The question is why does the president has surrounded himself with people who cannot tell the truth along of congress the president's surround himself with some people that maybe shouldn't. I don't know. But when he was running this campaign, Mr. Manafort was there was part of the campaign, Mr. Manafort had been involved with Republican politics before why he's liked him. I don't know what I'm most concerned about is what took place at the highest levels are committee is supposed to be the government oversight committee. We're supposed to look at abuses when when government agencies do the kind of things that I think they did at the top levels of the FBI. That's what we're supposed to be focused on. I am curious. What you thought of this one comment by Michael, Colin take a listen. Listen. I'm responsible for your silliness. Because I did the same thing that you're doing now for ten years. And I can only warn people the more people that follow Mr. Trump as I did blindly are going to suffer the same consequences that I'm suffering. Are you at all concerned? You're you're blind to something here. No, no on my focus is on getting to the bottom of things getting to the truth. That's what we're supposed to do on the oversight committee when we do investigations. That's my focus as I've said the record under the presence leadership. The last two years is simply amazing the things that have been accomplished for this country both economically on the courts and a host of areas foreign policy as well. The president has not always told the truth on Russia. I don't I don't think the presence lied about Russia at all. I not once there's been no clue not about the Trump Tower. James you never he didn't he didn't miss country, even James Komi, even James Komi when he when we deposed him set up until the day. He was fired may ninth 2017 said there was no they were doing this investigation. No single bit of evidence to show any type of. They didn't want to tell the country that eight a Trump Tower Moscow deal in the works. I don't know that this is the president said one thing. And then you got you got Michael Cohen saying something else. Jim Jordan, the top Republican the oversight committee. I'm guessing we will do this again. We will. Thank you very much. All right. When we come back the fallout from the Cohen herrings and how serious are Democrats about impeachment painless. Welcome back panelists here that by national political columnist for Yahoo news. Helene Cooper, Pentagon correspondent for the New York Times. Our own NBC news, national political reporter, Heidi press, Bella and appearing on meet the press for the first time, which is which is an air on my fault. John potholes editor of commentary. I know I feel like saying this. So you're the first time or somebody gets you the first shot at this. I'm gonna put a Peggy Noonan from this weekend. Because it was a fascinating column. She did overall sort of both trying to explain Trump world. But also what she saw. And here's what she writes. What is amazing? This is on the Coen hearings. What is it mazing though, is that such a rebuke such an attack on the essential nature of a president? And by an intimate has no equal in our history. John dean said there was a cancer growing in the presidency. He didn't say Richard Nixon was the cancer J pot. Okay. So Michael Cohen. If the SDN wise, so the new SUV New York, whoever hadn't broken down the door of his hotel room in the regency hotel, you know, in the summer of two thousand eighteen will he have said these words that he said this week. Of course, not he threw himself on the mercy of the world that hates Trump having spent ten years doing nothing, but defending Trump's so his his moral Listrik attack on Trump has to be taken with, you know. You know, not a grain of salt, but a mountain of salt having said that. The weird thing. I think about the Coen testimony is that despite Jim Jordan saying he was a terrible liar in some ways he helped Trump on the larger question of Russia and impeachment by saying that Trump did not formally did not say I want you to lie the congress by saying that he had attempted to purchase the the videotapes mentioned in the dossier and had decided from that experience that they did not exist. So that in a couple of other things as somebody who said, I hate Trump now, and he's terrible. And everything is terrible. He and if he's such a confirmed liar. Why didn't he say Trump told me the lie if he had said, it Trump would there be subject to the possible charge of subornation of perjury? But he didn't say it. Hey, the credit Michael Collins credibility increased because he build Trump out of a few things he did. And that's to John's point that there was a number of cases here where he actually defended the president against some pretty nasty accusations that have been swirling around like the elevator tape. You know, the rumors of that he had somehow hit Malania in the elevator. And so he kind of built up his credibility because he was in one hundred percent trashing Trump, and especially on the collusion point. He said he didn't see evidence of collusion. And so he wasn't one hundred percent trashing the president, and that made him more credible on the new things that he did bring to the table, which was the news here that there had been hush money payments and not just one that were made throughout the entire course of this presidency. He also suggested that there is another separate criminal investigation going on at the Y. He said there were things he couldn't talk about and tantalizingly. He mentioned his final conversation with Trump is something that was in that scope and that he couldn't talk about. That was that Matt by and we have the story this morning about maybe it's pardon that that that they're doing. But let me ask this impeachable is he John dean John dean brought the end of the Nixon presidency. Did Michael Cohen not in that particular problems. I look I agree with you. 'cause he's a liar, and you have two and we've known this, and you have to take that face value that being said I thought and I agree with Peggy Noonan on this. It was the portrait of the president. He painted particularly in his opening statement that I thought maybe perhaps as more damaging in the end than any particular thing in which I'm which he exonerated the president. We're implicated the prison. I mean, the fact talking about the president looking at him and saying if I was going to go to Vietnam, you think I'm stupid that the president who he says never indicated he loved the country or wanted to make it better. This is a guy who spent you know, years and years at his side. I think there's a lingering sort of cumulative impact of that intimate portrait and damning portrait painted by someone so close to the president. That's by itself is unimpeachable. I do think we're going to get to impeachment. Someone who's not only Democrats are going to be able to hold themselves back. As they get closer to twenty twenty. And I don't think it matters. Because frankly, nothing's going to drive this president from office. He you have to think of him. He's he's not he's not Nixon. I said he's he's he's buddy CNC. He's Marion Barry, he's a guy who loves he loves it. He wants the fight. He does Hellene. This was great Washington Post on Wednesday about why why did House Republicans just attack Cohen, not defend Trump? Here's what one Bligh anonymous House Republicans said truthfully, it is tough to ignore some of the gross immoral behavior by the president said one senior House Republican, but the reason there was no defenses because there is no defense as Jim Jordan didn't want to defend certain things president. No, I mean, I thought that was one of the extrordinary things that came out of the Michael Cohen hearing was that so many Republicans didn't barter, you know. No. You didn't hear people saying Trump is in a racist? You didn't hear people saying, you know, let me defend the president. You hear heard them doing a consorted making a concerted effort to go after Cohen, and that you know, to break down his credibility is clearly. The Republican strategy one of the things I thought, you know, I used to cover buddy CNC at the providence. Me up with this whole like that's a great comparison. But one of the things I thought was a little bit sad about the reaction to the Cohen hearing is that the United States people in the United States now are so in their respective camps. You have the left way off to the left of the right at the right? And nobody is listening to facts or anything like that. That's presented. You people are not coming out and saying, wow, he said this. He said that it's all been baked into the process and people hear what they wanna hear. I think Jim Jordan set out. The course for the Republican party from here on out, which is I don't want to talk about any of this. I want to talk about tax cuts. I want to talk about the economy. I want to talk about foreign policy. What we have here beginning in one thousand nine hundred eight when Bill Clinton got into so much trouble. Polling started separating out the president's personal job approval from his work job approval, your member. So Clinton's numbers went way down on his personal job and stayed there. But his work job approval. Was hi this is the track to reelection. For trump. If there is a tractor election for Trump if the nation and can be convinced that the news is good and Trump's character has nothing to do with whether or not he is managing the country. Effectively. They will have a case to make for his reelection. And that requires them to say, I don't want to talk about any of this point when it comes to impeachment. You just listened to Jerry Nadler who is the chief democrat on the judiciary committee, and he says point blank, they've gotta have more Republican support we've seen what works in history with Nixon which was bipartisan in Clinton, which was very partisan. So the bottom line is they're not gonna impeach him. Until they have the votes to impeach him. Okay. In a moment. What do Democrats want more a progressive idealist or candidate who simply better position to beat President Trump that and more on the twenty twenty race when we return? We will impact a federal jobs guarantee to ensure that everyone in this country is guaranteed a job. That was Bernie Sanders in Brooklyn yesterday. So the accent really fit is first peach since launching his twenty twenty campaign on Friday. It was Washington state. Governor Jay Inslee who got into the race until Morrow. It'll be former Colorado governor John Hickenlooper officially announcing. So whatever wins the democratic nomination. We'll face it president with a loyal and resilient base of support. And our latest NBC news Wall Street Journal poll taken before all of the news about Cohen in North Korea. President Trump's approval rating stood at forty six percent. That's actually tied for the second highest showing yet in our poll since he's been president fifty two percent disapproving. He's basically in the higher end of what has been a trading range of about five points in the low to mid forties last month, we had him at forty three percent with fifty four percent disapproving. So is that good enough for reelection? We'll joining me now, our gurus NBC news, Wall Street Journal polling partners of Republican Bill mcinturff and democrat, Fred. Gang. Let me put up generic ballot. A ways we know? It's just a generic ballot. But a generic democrat has forty eight President Trump has forty-one Bill mcinturff. Is that a yellow flashing yellow light or flushing? Well, this'll yellow light your behind. But so was Bill Clinton at the same point the NBC. Well, she'd journal pull and with the Forty-six job approval the presence in the ball game. And the other thing your member is last month that was that was a minus fourteen down to minus seven and did a year ago. It was minus sixteen it's getting closer. And I think that that's a good and positive thing for the president flashing yellow light. But that also means he has to do everything to win it in a may not be enough and one of the hallmarks of the Trump presidency. Is he really hasn't expanded his support beyond the base of people who elected him in two thousand sixteen and yes, he did won the electoral college. But he only got forty six percent of the popular vote and in a two person race, which we still may have. I'm forty six percent doesn't probably when you the president. Well, it's interesting, then what do Democrats want? This is one of the questions. We asked here, which is among primary votes. They want someone who's closer to their views is among Democrats or somebody. Who's simply got the best chance to beat Donald Trump fifty six forty so majority want somebody close to their views, but believe it or not four years ago. Nearly eighty percent one at somebody a bit more pure while twenty percent were in the pragmatic wing build that surprise, you know, because four years ago, it was anonymous Republican this is President Trump enormous democrat intensity against him. And you know, if you showed the Republican numbers for years ago or eight years ago about Obama they will look just like that forty percent. I want to beat Obama majority. I want somebody agrees in my views. Primary builders both parties ideologues. They want to see somebody that they can be excited about Fred. Is it fair to say there used to be a saying Bill would say it'll all time Republicans aren't looking for the most electable they're looking for the most electable conservative is that what Democrats are looking for not necessarily the most electable purely. But the most electable progressive I. From our polling data other polling data. Yeah. I'd have to say that is probably a fair characterization. I will also say that it's not just a binary choice with so many different candidates running on the democratic side. And even if you're taking the progressive issue, laying there's so many different progressive issues. A candidate can try to get a hold of so many people and one important thing there will be one more Super Bowl for there's a vote. There's a long time to go. I wonder if there was a headline in George Will's column this morning that sort of to me was better than putting up a poll number but just talking about the week of divisiveness in both parties. And it says Democrats, this is his headline Democrats are having an awful week. And Howard Schultz is having a good one. Fred, let me start with you the divide in the Democratic Party Howard Schultz thinks that's his opening Democrats are going to go with a Sanders like and Trump's over here. With his committed base is is this a week that is a reminder that Democrats could actually give an opening to our Howard show again. I think I'm there's so much time left because there isn't a nominee dako- less run. We're going to have different groups, you know, different issues sectors of fighting for influence, but in our poll, whether you wanted to defeat Trump more or you wanted someone who's closer to reviews on issues nine hundred ten we're voting for Donald Trump against democrat. I think our party comes together next year. Here's a poll number from NBC. Well, she journal thirty eight percent said that they want a third party. That's the highest in these in a sixteen year track we've been doing, and so obviously, this is a country where guess what is since nineteen thousand nine Democrats have become more liberal. How time record last year? Republicans become more. Conservative all time record independence all time. Record more moderate. There is certainly an impulse in the middle of the country to see some other option between these two parties. Well, it's funny. You've put it that way. You guys had an fascinating chart, and I'm going to put you guys a bit on the spot here. It was about President Trump has he been honest and truthful on the Russian investigation, and we had to split up by where people get their news on television on the cable front. Well, let me put it up here. So as the president been truthful, honest on Russia among FOX viewers eighty four percent of FOX Anders believe the president has been truthful among MSNBC viewers. That's twenty one percent among CNN viewers. That's one percent. Look these are small samples we can debate that. But that does tell you something major. What does it say to you? Fred. Tells us that you get your reality from what channel you watch. And what does that mean for how this does that mean that the Michael Cohen hearing while as significant as it was Bill as far as maybe the legal case in everything that we're worried about here that the country is made up their mind, or that the partisans have made up their mind, I hate to say this you do show. But one of the main things you learn as upholster is please our country sort of comes to a steady state, and it's very hard to change all the Russian news all the career all the stuff. I think we could do this same survey next week. And these numbers would be within a point of each other. You just have to in some ways ignore everything that happens and look at longer term trends in the longer term trend is the country's sort of said they've sort of decided what they think about Russia, and until there's a heck of a lot. More fact this country is nowhere near where needs to be to think you could impede end to one. This Cooper, send the pre. This segment. I think most partisans have decided what the truth is right now. And that's why I in terms of the Kalinin model report, we'll have to see what actually happens in the mullahs report for people to have reaction to the Muller. There is another junk of people who actually ignorant social media all week long, Bill mcinturff standard pollsters. Thank you very much later in the broadcast. The other big story of the week the collapse of the nuclear disarmament talks with North Korea. So now what happens? Backdated download time. So what characteristics are Democrats looking for not looking for in a presidential candidate? The answer may come in. Our new NBC news Wall Street Journal poll this month, we asked voters about certain types of characteristics that would make them enthusiastic comfortable, and what characteristics would make them have some reservations or uncomfortable about a certain candidate. We're going to do other characteristics next month and throughout this election season across the board Democrats were enthusiastic or comfortable with a candidate. Who is African American a woman candidate white male, someone gay or lesbian on the flip side only. Thirty three percent of Democrats were comfortable with someone over the age of seventy five as their nominee and only forty five percent. We're comfortable with a potential socialist president. Think of a few Democrats running for president or at least thinking about it who fit one or both of those descriptions, and by the way, while the margins vary. Democrats are in line with voters overall on those questions, so where are the splits between Democrats and everyone else? Well, sixty seven percent of Democrats would be enthusiastic or comfortable with a Muslim president compared to just forty nine percent. Overall, only thirty seven percent of Democrats though are okay with an evangelical Christian versus fifty four percent overall. And only thirty one percent of Democrats want to see a business executive president wonder what that's about overall that number is fifty six percent, look as we get further into this process. Keep close attention to what Democrats in the country. Overall have said they don't want someone over seventy five, and they don't want socialist what we testing other characteristics like people who are Hispanic and Asian American president atheist woman of color military leaders in. Yes, billionaires become into a data. Download near. You when we come back what the president said about the death of student auto one beer is he really taking Kim Jong UN at his word. And the game brought to you by Boeing continuing our mission to connect protect explore and inspire. Back now with endgame in an awkward and to the North Korea talks, and I say an awkward, and I want to set aside walking away from from talks could be a good thing. So let's let's put that aside. But it was the Otto warmbier stuff that really sort of left a horrible taste in the mouth of a lot of people. Here was the president on Thursday. On a talking about auto warmbier the now deceased students who died he sensually in the hands of the North Korean government. Here is the president on Thursday in Hanoi. I don't believe that he would have allowed that to happen. Just wasn't his advantage you allow that to happen. He tells me that he didn't know about it. And I will take him at his word. Here's the president yesterday. Trying to explain those comments. And I'm in such a horrible position. Because in one way, I have to negotiate in the other way, I love Mr. and MRs warmbier, and I love auto a lot of what I do with respect to North Korea at any success that we hopefully have and we've had a lot. We'll give it no credit out of one beer's. Parents put up their own statement, we have been respectful during the summit process. Now, we must speak out Kim in is evil regime are responsible for the death of our son auto came into evil regime are responsible for unimaginable. Cruelty and humanity. Inhumanity no excuses are lavish praise can change that. You know, Helene. It actually to me puts a spotlight on human rights is just not part of this president's foreign policy. It does it's not part of his DNA. And I think that's that's unfortunate. I was so prepared. I think overall Trump in Vietnam on this North Korea. The summit did. Okay. There was a lot of fear before he went that. He was going to again at the Pentagon, and particularly they were terrified that. He was going to talk about pulling troops out of South Korea that he could do put any number of things on the table. He did not his North Korea policy. If you take out all of the tweets, and if you take out all of them, slamming, Tori statements in the rocket man, and all of that is actually sound and a lot of people buy into that national security experts. And then he he he does this oughta warmbier statement, which is completely preposterous and it sounded so familiar to him standing in Helsinki talking about afterwards about the American Intel community, and he had talked of Ladimir Putin who told him they had nothing to do with interfering with the American elections. And so, of course, he he believes them, and he believes NBS on kashogi in this one after another all you have to do is as autocrat is seems to have a conversation with him. And he is quick to you know. There's there's a level of of understanding of kind of the personal pain that he might be inflicting that doesn't seem to be there. There was a time in on the conservative side of the American political divide when the Republican party in particular was was split between people who believed in fighting a moral foreign policy in which you talked about the West's values versus say the Soviet Union's and human rights and pushing for human rights and the other side of the right, which was a rail. Politique right. It's an Nixon win. Yeah. You have to deal with the world as it is don't be a fantasist. You know, you gotta deal with the bad guys. And you take them you take them as they are. The rail politique or is would never who were this was a real fight. They would never have gone out and said that the Russians didn't know that they were torturing Andrei Sakharov or that they were you know, they were throwing people in the gulag. That was the reason they said, these are tough people evil people. So you better deal with them cold. I've called fashion Trump has completely obliterated this. So he goes, and he says nice things about evil people which doesn't help unless you believe that flattering them. Flattering people who are beyond the reach of flattery. I would imagine is the way to get them to do what you want. That's what works with Trump. But right it flattery works with him. So he assumes flattery works for others, but you can still be to John's point real politique and believe our intelligence services, and that is the other dimension of this that is similar to how he's talked about flat. Amir Putin that is similar to how he's talked about. Mohammed bin Salman, which is that aren't telling services believed that auto warmbier was taken intentionally and strategically because if you look at the timing of it, it was three days before Kim Jong UN was about to test a missile for the first time in three years. This is a well known tactic of the Koreans which is North Koreans, which is strategic hostage taking so count this. As yet another time where this president is not just trying to butter up dictators strongmen, but doing it in defiance of our own intelligence presidencies. Take on the personalities of the president always there's nothing nothing inherently wrong with walking away from negotiation. I don't think that's a problem. But in this is going to sound harsh. This is a presidency entirely, without empathy. I think is what you're getting at. Because he he seems to be for all appearances person who was entirely without empathy. Whatever his strong, suit's or or weeks. It's he does not have the ability to. To feel personally and deeply the suffering of others. He never exhibits, and I think that's Cohen was getting it and his testimony, and it's what comes across in moments like this career David Brooks today. That's basically that theme of his column. Didn't love Donald Trump when he was a kid anyway, that's all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week. Because if it's Sunday, it's meet the press. Hey, guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday, sit down podcast on the latest episode. We revisit one of our favorites with Emily blunt. I chat with the actress about reprising the iconic role of Mary Poppins, and what it was like to work alongside her husband, John Krasinski in last year's monster hit horror film, a quiet place. You can listen to that full conversation with Emily blunt right now on the Sunday, sit down podcasts get it for free. Wherever you download yours.

President Trump president Michael dean Cohen Trump Donald Trump Trump Tower Moscow Russia Trump Tower congress Robert Muller Michael Cohen Jim Jordan Helene Cooper North Korea NBC Kim Jong UN Mr. Trump Rogers New York attorney
Democrats escalate after the attorney general's no-show

All In with Chris Hayes

44:23 min | 1 year ago

Democrats escalate after the attorney general's no-show

"Tonight on all in the attorney general of the United States of America is not telling the truth to the congress of the United States. That's a crime Democrats escalate after the attorney general's no-shows the bars moment of accountability will come soon enough tonight as the Trump defiance of congress grows is there a movement to impeach Bill bar and Senator Richard Blumenthal on the question. Bill bar avoided today. I don't recall having any substantive discussion on the investigate if you plus twenty twenty candidate Bernie Sanders on the new White House push to end ObamaCare and the rise and fall of the cable news conservative the male needs to be the breadwinner of the family. My Stephen Moore was just too much for even Republicans. First thing Donald Trump does is president is kicks kick a black family at a public housing all in starts right now. See them more. I guess it's doing great. Good evening from New York. I'm Chris as we have breaking news tonight, and the Democrats pushed to get Robert Muller to testify a source familiar with the matter tells NBC news at the House Judiciary committee has begun discussions directly with special counsel Muller's team about him testifying bypassing the attorney general right now Donald Trump at the White House is locked in a constitutional death match with congressional Democrats and the president is going to win. If the Democrats won't match his willingness to take every position to it's extreme to be as maximalist as he is. Because that's the way he always wins. Everything it's why he's the president. It's why he's existed for forty years flouting law. Nearly every turn with essentially no repercussions. Don't Trump fundamentally understands the law as simply the nice language that people with fancy degrees put around will to power in an interview on Trump TV tonight. The president said he won't let former White House counsel. Don, mcgann. Testify in front of congress. I've had him testifying already for thirty hours. So is the answer in some really. So I don't think I can let him and then tell everybody else you can't because especially him because he was a council. So they've testified for many hours all of them many many concerned at three black dying on one can and the others can. So as a I would say, it's done K. This comes after Trump's attorney general Bill Barr stood up. The democrat controlled House Judiciary committee this morning at did not comply with a house subpoena for the unredacted Muller report. And B C news is also a letter written by White House ler flood the day after the Miller report was released slamming the report and saying that Trump's decision not to assert privilege in regards to the report does not affect his ability. As president to instruct his advisors to declined to appear before congressional committees to answer questions on these same subjects. The president is determined to protect from congressional scrutiny. Not only the advice rendered by his own visors. But also by visors to future presidents stands. Now. The White House. Is basically saying to the Democrats in congress you and what army there brazenly defying congress and the normal constitutional trains and not just and this is important in a typical over fighting with congress way which happens in every presidency, but a complete you don't get to talk to anyone. We don't care about you. We are not giving you a single document. We won't listen to your subpoenas kind of way. So now, it's on Democrats. And the question for them is will you meet maximalism with maximalism where will you meet it with the sensually legalistic niceties? Here's House Judiciary chairman jury now there today furious. Bill Barr had bailed on his committee and ignored a subpoena and announcing the urgent and proportionate response. He's using to counter. The attorney general we got a letter late last night. Refusing us refusing to adhere to the subpoena. This is indefensible, and it is part of the attack on American democracy by this administration. We will make one more good faith attempt to to to to negotiate and to get to get the access to the report that we need. And then if we don't get that we will proceed to hold the attorney general in contempt and we'll go from there. Torney general to answer. Day or two. Maybe by Monday. We'll see maybe by Monday. You know, there's one constitutional remedy to bring the president he'll one it's impeachment or you could just take the loss of moves to the next topic fight the next fight this before us right now, we're watching unfold, and this is important understanding, it's really not a legal question. It is a question of power seems to be a mindset of trying to catch the president in a crime. But that doesn't matter the law in some technical black letter sense is not what matters here. This is an elemental struggle over power and Democrats are either going to marshal all the power that they have and wield that power or they're not doing now for more on. This are boxer. Former US Senator from California now co host of the boxer podcast Jilin banks, former assistant Watergate special counsel now in MSNBC legal analyst, Jill let me start with you just on the latest news, which is now there's staff and Muller saffir discussing directly discussing appears the logistics of Muller testifying. What do you make of that? I think it's a good move. I think it's going to take whatever it takes and that the Democrats need to as you just said use their power and do what they can to get this done. It's very important for the American public to see the witnesses themselves. Not to have a summary of it by bar now, even to have the summary by Muller Muller is important because of the letter he wrote that contradicts everything that bar said. So he's now a substantive witness not just a summary witness. But I still want to see the real witnesses. I wanna see Mcgann I wanna see Lou douse 'cause I want people to be able to judge their credibility and see what's going on. What do you think of that formulation Senator boxer about sort of meeting maximalism with maximalism that Donald Trump will do whatever he can get away with? They don't care about whatever the norms of constrain are precedents, and the Democrats are going to either have to sort of a seed to that or they're going to have to rise to that. And escalate along with him. The representatives of the people are going to have to go toe to toe with a president who wants to run the country like he's the head of a crime family. This is what it's come to. It is nothing less than an attack on the separation of powers. And if Donald Trump doesn't think you're on his team, you don't know where for a crime, boss. He gets rid of you, and he brings on partners like Bill bar, who's just given up his soul. And I think it is come to the end, you know, I've been very hesitant on the whole impeachment thing, we have no choice, but to go toe to toe because right now, it's beyond Donald Trump. It's about the future of this great country. You know, one of our founders said, I've given you a Republic if you can keep it. Well, here's the moment. Here's the moment. Can we keep it? And that means we have to go down every path we can and. And we have to take this to the American people. If I was a member of congress, which I was a Representative for ten years before I got to the Senate. I'd have town halls in every part of my district. And I'd say come on outlets, read the constitution. Let's understand what's at play here. So I think it's great that they're going for Muller Muller may be the only one in that whole group right now who will tell the truth I wouldn't follow up just quickly on that center. Because what I hear from you is that what I'm hearing for you is you think the behavior of the White House in the face of congressional oversight is driving you towards thinking that you may have to reach for impeachment. Just as a as a constitutional remedy in this standoff. Well, it's more than that. I think if you listen to Nancy people like to say either for peach mint or your for nothing. What Nancy Pelosi has said is we have to look at every single thing that's happening and let the chips fall. But what I'm saying is this it seems to me when you have a president like this who really. Has an attorney general who is carrying his water rather than representing the people as he's supposed to do. This is an attack on the independence of our judiciary. I want to play something to answer Polisi said which relates back to what happened during Nixon. And Jill I want to get your response to it. This is Nancy Pelosi talking about article three of Nixon's impeachment. Take a listen. As you probably know on the articles of impeachment of president Nixon article three was that he ignorant the subpoenas of congress that he did not honor the subpoenas of congress. This is very very serious, but my judgment will spring from the judgment of our committee chairs. Did you think that was a significant her referencing that as I did Jill I do think it's significant and I have joined Senator boxer in being more cautious and saying that what we need our fact-finding here. And I say that because I believe that the facts will persuade people and that like in Watergate, we will see people start to fall away from supporting what is going on. They will see what's happening, and they will turn on the president. And so that it's important. I don't care what you call those hearings. But having the witnesses live is what makes a difference. And that is what we need to have. And when they talked about lawyers, for example, doing the questioning that's what happened in the Senate hearings in Watergate NAT the impeachment inquiry during the investigation of legislation. The the lawyers were the ones asking the questions of the attorney general of the White House. Console. John dean, John Mitchell, they were all questioned Butterfield answered the question about the tapes in response to Fred Thompson, who was the minority console to the committee. So there's precedent for this. And we need to get it going, and we need to see these witnesses. Yeah. One one one suspects that they don't want the witnesses to if you're either which is why which is why we're in the standoff that we are. We will see how it gets resolved by rebulk are Juwan banks. Thank you both. Thanks joining now, one of the members the House Judiciary committee. You've got stood up by Bill bar day, congresswoman, Lucille Macbeth's. She's a democrat from Georgia. I term congresswoman your reaction to a bar blowing off your committee today. Well, I I Chris I have to say that, you know. Compliance with congress is just not optional. It is not optional. The American people deserve answers my constituents deserve answers. And most certainly the deduce Sherry committee deserves answers, and the fact that we have, you know, attorney general bar deciding that he's not going to show is a great disservice to the American people. Where's the transparency, where's the truth? And we are tasked in congress to be you know, fact, finders tooth finders. We are tasked with congressional oversight making sure that we are bringing truth to the American people. But here's I mean, I want to present for you understand that I think the White House and Barr and others are thinking about this and get your reaction to someone on the committee, which is no. You don't get to talk to anyone. You don't get any documents. And who's going gonna make us like honestly, like in a very real sense like who is going to make us. And I guess the question to you is a member of that committee is a member of congress the article on branches. Like, how do you answer that question like what are you prepared to do to make them comply under the constitution? They are checks and balances that we have to follow their procedures that we have to follow. And we intend to do that. Now, of course, as as we know that, you know, chairman Nadler has given attorney general bar a couple of days to come up with unredacted report, we're going to wait for that. And we're going to give them every chance to do. What is constitutionally right for the American people. But of course, we're going to continue to make sure that we ask to have special counsel Muller come to speak before says well because there again, we're looking for answers. So we're going to continue to follow the checks and balances we're going to continue to follow the procedures and. As it has said as it has been said earlier today, you know, let the chips fall where they may. And we're going to continue to doggedly do what we need to do because Americans deserve answers and transparency. References constituents the first answer. Obviously you represent a district that had been in Republican hands. You flipped that district. It's not it's not some sort of deep blue district's two very sort of middle of the road district. You've got Republican constituents democratic constituents and independence. What do you can you go to them and explain to them why it's important for congress to take this wherever it goes to let the chips fall where they may to make bar comply with these things or do you feel like that's a distraction that people won't get. Well, you now definitely we want to make sure that we're following that no one is above the rule of law. But I will tell you that the American people most specifically people constituents within my district. They're really concerned about affordable healthcare they're concerned about you know, bars decision to strike down. You know, his Justice department to strike down the Affordable Care Act. That's what they're concerned about. I know that I have three hundred thousand people in my district alone that have pre existing conditions. I have forty five thousand students under the age of seventeen that have pre existing condition preexisting conditions. I too am a two time breast cancer survivor having pre existing condition. So those are the questions that I wanted to. To aunt to ask those are the answers that I needed to make sure that we were of Barry you wanted to ask him today about that. Lutely, that's what I wanted to ask him about. Because I know that those are the things that people in my district are very concerned about and no one seems to really want to talk about that. So let's talk about you know, the integrity of our elections. Let's talk about the integrity of making sure that Justice is working the way it's supposed to there are a whole range of implications of you know, when attorney general bars not coming before us to answer these questions, they're far more things other than just this obstruction that people are concerned about day to day or at congresswoman Lucy bath of Georgia's. Thank you very much. Thank you next has the attorney general talked about any of the mole related investigations with anyone in the White House. Senator Richard Blumenthal wanted to know and the attorney general Don answer and the Senator joins me in two minutes. Hi, it's Katy Tur want to keep up with MSNBC while you're on the go subscribe to the NBC daily newsletter. You'll get the best of what you've missed or in this unprecedented. Era of news, text MSNBC, two six six eight six six to subscribe. To my mind. The most pressing concern about attorney general William bar zeal for technical president is that he's still attorney general right now as I'm speaking to you, he oversees the entire Justice department, including among many other things a dozen ongoing cases that spun off from the Muller investigation and in his Senate testimony yesterday under questioning from Democrat, Richard Blumenthal. Dr gave every indication that he will keep running interference for the White House. Have you had any conversations with anyone in the White House about those ongoing investigations that were spawned or spun off by I don't recall having any substantive discussion on the investigate have you had any non substantive discussion. It's possible that the name of a case was mentioned. And have you provided information about any of those ongoing investee any investment any information whatsoever? I don't recall let me ask you one. Last time. You can't recall whether you have discussed those cases with anyone in the White House, including the president night state. My recollection is I have not discussed though that you don't recall for sure. I. Let me move. I I can say very, surely I did not discuss the substance of and will you recuse yourself from those investigations, no. Senator Richard Blumenthal. Who you saw there questioning joins me. Now, what was your takeaway from that exchange with the attorney general at my takeaway was number one? The attorney general is indeed continuing to block and tackle for the White House. Number two. He was completely disingenuous in saying he couldn't recall conversations with the White House. That's exactly the kind of conversation and attorney general recalls. And in fact, memorialize I want to see the records and number three. I think attorney general bars credibility was shattered yesterday. And he needs to resign. What I want to ask you this maximalism question. You've called from resigned as many call these have which I should note is a thing that you don't do about everyone. That's not like everyone's running around saying that, you know, Alex's our needs to resign. Do you understand yourself as locked into a constitutional death match with the president this point? They're certainly right now is a constitutional confrontation. It's a slow moving conflagration that has to be taken to the courts, we need to present his case to the court. Threw a contempt citation. That's the right way to do it. We also need to present this case to the American people as Lucy mcmath said she needs to go to the people of Georgia in her district. I need to go to the people. Connecticut, all of us cross the country need to present his case, the American people because ultimately, they're the ones who decide, but here's the deeper question is are you and Democrats in both houses in the Senate and particularly in the house, but I don't know how much you guys are talking to each other. Are you prepared to take this where it goes? I mean, it is very clear to me that the modus operandi Donald Trump the ROY Cohn was up around. I as he will sue you. And he will you and he has no shame, and he'll just do whatever you can get away with. That's clear we know that about them. The question of what can you get away with ultimately is going to rest with Democrats in? Congress and are you prepared to go as far as you need to go? I am prepared. And I believe my democratic colleagues are prepared in the question. You guys seem scared to me every every I'm just being honest with you, and I don't mean this in a judgmental fashion. I'm sitting descriptively. There's a sense of like, I don't wanna wave around the gun. I don't wanna fire. The like we want to just reference it. We want to try to get them to comply. We want to get back to normal. This is all abnormal. But I don't really want to go there. There's a reluctance I feel well two points number one. We should be respectful and deliberate and determined and that means thinking through all of this strategy before we simply. Take the action or fire. The number two we can walk and chew gum at the same time. My colleagues who say we care about health care about taxes veterans jobs economic progress. Absolutely. Right. And we need to work on those issues and legislate on them, including infrastructure, where there seemed to be glimmers of hope of bipartisan cooperation, but at the same time, we have to hold Donald Trump accountable. And that means getting the full Muller report getting the notes of his conversation with William bar on the rebuke that Muller issued a stunning memorialize rebuke unprecedented in our history. And it means getting all of the findings and evidence that aren't aligned I want to ask you about something Jason issue, which is a lawsuit that bears your name. It's a lawsuit. I believe it's Richard Blumenthal vs. Donald Trump is how it's titled correct? It's a law. Suit under the emoluments clause, the United States constitution, which says that the basically the president can't be getting foreign paint payments from foreign actors and foreign states that yesterday just crossed its second hurdle. The second time they tried to knock it out of court. It was allowed to go forward. And here's the judge affirming the premise of the plane is complaint here accepting allegations in the complaint is true, which the court must at this juncture, right because it's preliminary injunction. I think the president is accepting prohibited. Foreign emoluments without seeking congressional consent thereby defeating the purpose to clause to guard against even the possibility of corruption foreign influence, how important was this ruling yesterday a tremendous victory in stunning vindication. For commonsense. Reading of the United States constitution. The emoluments clause is the premier anti corruption prediction of our United States constitution. And it was put there by the founders to guard against exactly what Donald Trump is doing namely taking payments. And benefits from a foreign government, which he is doing through licensing fees and tell bills hotel payments by Saudi Arabia and other foreign powers to his hotels, condo rentals and purchases the list goes on. And I want to make this point which is very serious. We know about them because of the free press, and because of the reporting that's been done. Well, speaking of that, did you Witter's broke this story. The State Department allowed foreign governments to rent Trump condo's US State Department that at least seven foreign governments they're paying they're paying Donald Trump did the Trump work but to rent luxury condominiums in York's Trump world tower in two thousand seventeen without approval. Congress did you know they were doing it. You know, you learn about it from that. I learned about it from the reporting that was done because facial vital. It is a facial violation of the mind. That's 'cause we have passed the first obstacle. Which is they tried to knock us out of court on the base of standing Blumenthal versus Trump survived that effort, by the way, Jerry Nadler is my co plaintiff in that effort and we've just survived the second attempt to knock us out of court. And now, we go to discovery to documents and information, and we have the right? I hope if the court allows us to seek all of those documents and all of the information about foreign payments and benefits. Slots learn their Senator Richard Blumenthal could to have here in the studio. Thank you next. Bernie Sanders on the move by Trump's Justice department to destroy American healthcare as we know it. Well, the whole world was watching William bar face questions over the molar per yesterday. The Trump administration's department of Justice under William bar supervision was busy filing a formal appeal to kill the Affordable Care Act entirely too, wink, it out of existence and completely destroyed the American healthcare system as we know it Justice department. Join Twenty-one Republican led state's asking the fifth circuit court of appeals to uphold a lower court's decision. To throw the entirety of ObamaCare out on a legal theory that has experts from across the ideological spectrum shaking their head at the utter craven absurdity. But if that decision is upheld it would just leave up to twenty million Americans uninsured it would end Medicaid expansion. You would end all of the protections for everyone for people preexisting conditions. Just all of it just gone. Did that is the official position of the Trump administration, which is offering no replacement plant? Joining me now to talk about this and a whole host of. Other matters. A Senator Bernie Sanders who's eight twenty twenty democratic presidential candidate Senator we've talked about this before but they've doubled down now under William bar, and they seem intent to go as far as they can with this lawsuit. You know? It is really hard to understand from logic. Or the way he works. Why he thinks throwing thirty two million people of the healthcare. They have ending the protections of pre existing conditions. We away with the ability of young people to get health care on their parents insurance policy. Why he thinks a that makes any sense at all or be why he thinks that is good politics is beyond my comprehension. But I will tell you what we are going to do. And I think we are moving aggressively, and effectively our antidote what he is talking about is to have the United States. Join every other major country on earth through a Medicare for all single payer program guaranteeing healthcare, every man woman in child in this country. If there aren't two different approaches to health care that would Trump is proposing what I'm proposing that I have not seen a differences of opinion. Well, let me I. I want to follow up on that one of the things one of the reasons that I've watched a bunch of healthcare fights. I watched the fight. I've watched the repeal UCA fight. And if there's a common through line in them, it is status quo bias, it is people are scared of change. And with good reason because change in healthcare is terrifying because it has to do with your life. So I guess I'm just not quite convinced. The idea that you need to meet him with some alternative when people are so in a defensive crouch about this incredibly frontal assault on what they have. I don't quite agree with you, Chris I think there is profound disgust at a healthcare system, which is by far the most expensive in the world, double what other countries paying where we have thirty four million people without any health insurance, even more who are underinsured where the where the pharmaceutical industry is ripping us off everyday charging us by fall the highest prices in the world. Where you have insurance companies and drug companies making billions and billions of dollars in profit paying their CEO's outrageous compensation packages. I think the American people want something stable Medicare is Medicare for all is the most popular healthcare health insurance program in the country. Eight is not a radical idea over a four year period to expand it to the rest of the population. Something else happened today that I wanted to get your reaction to which was vote. The first ever wore powers resolution rebuke of a president pass out of both houses in the Senate and in the house bipartisan basis to withdraw US involvement in the Saudi led Warren Yemen, that's costing tens of thousands of lives and threatening starvation. No, hundreds of thousands you failed a veto override today. The United States Senate what happens now, I just want to say, Chris. So all your view is on the stand that what's going on in Yemen. Now is the worst humanitarian disaster on the face of the. Planet of the UN estimates that if this war continues by the end of this year, two hundred thousand people mostly children will be dead. And if it continues beyond that, there'll be massive famine and millions of people will die. So this war has got to end the United States cannot continue to support the Saudi led intervention, which is causing so much in that impoverished country. Now, here's the good news. We lost the vote today to override Trump's veto. But what we have done is for the first time as you indicated actually had resolutions passed the house and the Senate through the War Powers Act, which is forty five years old. I we have been successful in doing that. And let me be very clear. This is the beginning of the process, not the end, and what you're going to see is kind of conservative members of the Senate people like Mike Lee who actually understand that is the constitution tells. Us that it is congress the Klay as war, not the president work with progresses. Bring more people on board. You're going to see us expand this effort to take a look at wars and make sure that congress reestablish eight reestablish its its constitutional authority. I want to ask you about something. You tweeted the other day about China, you said since the China trade deal, I voted against America has lost over three million manufacturing jobs. It's wrong to pretend the China isn't one of our major economic competitors. When we are in the White House. We will win that competition by fixing our trade policies that appeared to be a response something Joe Biden said and I want to play what he said. And then ask you squarely. If in fact, you're responding. Here's what Joe Biden said. China is going to eat our lunch come on, man. They can't even figure out how to deal with the the fact that they have this great division between the China Sea and the mountains in the east in the west they can't figure out how they're going to deal with the corruption that exists within the system that I mean, I, you know, they're not bad folk spokes. But guess what they're not. Competition for us. So were you responding to former vice president with that tweet? If you don't tell anybody else, Chris. I mean, clearly you were, but, but here's but here's the point. Okay. Go ahead. And then I'll, you know, the point that we wanted to make is I happen to believe that our trade policies over the years have been disaster for workers in this country. If you add the job losses result of NAFTA. Which Joe voted for Joe is a friend of mine, and we're going to have this policy discussion in a very civil way. But Joe voted for NAFTA. He voted for PNT. Aw with China. Add those to trade policies to get the public talking about the loss of more than four million jobs. And by the way, a race to the bottom in this country where many employers moored wages and threatened. They work as if I didn't like that they would move to China oughta Mexico. So I happen to think that China's obviously, I mean, it is one of the fastest growing economies in the world over the last twenty years, and I think that we need a trade policy with China that is based on principles of fan. This not. Unfettered free trade what? So let me just just to give a sort of version of what the vice president seem to be saying, it seemed to me that party what he's saying is that this is not as era some proposition in the way that Donald Trump thinks about it. I mean part of the things right now is that Donald Trump says any gained by anyone else is a loss for us. A gain for China's a loss for us a gain for Mexico, and that seems like a bad way of thinking about the way that the global economy, right? I mean. Grow together. Absolutely. Look China deserves credit. I if I'm not mistaken, China has done a better job in wiping out, a desperate levels of poverty over thirty forty year period there any country in history, and they deserve credit for that. So I am not anti China, but we have got to establish trade policies, which do not allow corporate America to simply shut down in this country and refuse to pay workers, a decent wage and move to countries around the world with paying people pennies an hour, and one of the things that I would do is use the leverage of the federal government to say to those profitable companies that if you want to shut down here and move abroad. And then you think you're gonna come in and get federal contracts. You know, you might wanna think of it we want you to be a good corporate citizen and not just treat your workers in a disparaging disdainful way. All right, Senator Bernie. Sanders from Vermont twenty twenty presidential candidate. Thank you for making time tonight. But you still ahead rare glimpse of what it looks like when Republicans stand up to the president for getting his pick for fed chair. What does it says about just how bad his pick was? Plus tonight's thing. One thing to starts next. It was the national day of prayer today. And so the president helping event in the rose garden with religious leaders members, the administration family, close friends and some singer whose name Trump could not remember. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm looking at that beautiful red here. Would you please stand up? Water. What of swat voice? It's so great you better. You better come up here. Great to have you. That was legendary country singer Winona Judd, by the way, she did not seem bothered at all that the man she says she's known for thirty five years. Couldn't remember her name. When he speaks. Five rates like a tuning into when you did it. Donald trump. Spiritual tuning fork is thing to in sixty seconds. Now, everybody knows Donald trumps favorite book is it's the bible though. It seems pretty clear he's never actually read it. Remember that time he was asked to quote his favorite verse. Wouldn't want to get into it? Because to me that's very personally. You don't want to talk about the bible is very personal. So I don't want to get into meals. I don't wanna get into. It means a lot to you that you think about or site. The bible means a lot to me. But I don't want to get into specifics. Even decided I don't wanna do that every Old Testament guy or do test up probably equal. I think it's just an incredible. The whole vibe is an incredible have you ever done not done the class reading and then gone to class the next day. All right. That's very personal. And at the national day of prayer service today. Trump talked about how God has helped them through some tough times. People say how do you get through that whole stuff? How do you go through those witch hunts and everything else, and you know, what we do Mike? We just do it. Right. And we think about God. That's true. That is totally so true Trump thinking about God, if you're trying to imagine what that looks like, well, please watch this. About god. When I say, tell me about what do you who is God to you? What what are some of your thoughts on this? Clearly, you're a smart, man. You're smart businessman. You've contemplated this before. Or have you contemplated? God is the ultimate you don't you look at this. You look at this in credit here. We are in the Pacific Ocean. How did I ever own this? I bought it fifteen years ago. I made one of the great deals they say ever this piece of land. I have no mortgage on it as you. I will certify and represent to you. We'll see and I was able to buy this and make a great deal. That's what I want to do for the country. Make great deals we have to we have to bring it back. But God is the ultimate. I mean, God created this. A rare bit of good news today. A manifestly unqualified hack will not be working for the federal government. The hacking question is Stephen Moore who Trump had tapped for a seat on the very important and powerful Federal Reserve Board, even though he's not in the communist. What more is is a TV talking head and slavishly devoted Trump superfan with a history of articulating views on monetary policy that are driven almost entirely by partisan politics and morbid a career of being wrong over and over and over again, and at least on that front. He was consistent Justice morning. More was promising. The White House was all in on his nomination less than an hour later Trump announce it more had decided to withdraw from the fed process. The reason more got nominated is the same reason he went down, which is that he talked a lot on TV and says a lot of terrible things. Journalists uncovered more long history of cartoonish, Lee, sexist and demeaning comments about women, which he now maintains role jokes. He wants us this the male needs to be the breadwinner of the family, which is pretty rich from guy who has the guardian noted was found in contempt of court after failing to pay his ex wife, hundreds of thousands of dollars in alimony and child support. Indeed. There was so much awful stuff that Moore had to try to defend. By the way. Did you see that? There's that great. Cartoon going along that New York Times headline first thing Donald Trump does is president is kicks kick a black family at a public housing, and it has Obama leaving the White House. I mean, I just love that one. But just a great one. So that that is a joke. I always made about you know. Obama lives in the president lives in public housing. But I I didn't mean it like a black person. Yeah. Never enough. Republican senators signaled their opposition to more to sink his nomination, which is an important one liner that Republicans will stand up Trump matters to them when they don't stand up to him on issues like child separation or defending the rule law is not because they're scared. It's because they either don't care or they agree with him. And we're gonna talk about that next. It is notable that in the past week and have two prominent conservatives floated for the Federal Reserve Board were shot down by Republicans themselves. Putting the lives of the myth of Republicans. Somehow can't or won't stand up down Trump because of his base Republicans stand up to him when it's something that matters to them like the fed, and when they don't it's because they either don't care or because they agree with them here with now former Reagan administration official India this and Sam cedar host of the majority report podcast and an MSNBC contributor, Linda, I on TV more than Herman Cain. What is your read of why they were willing to stand up to Donald Trump? Well, I think they didn't want manifestly unqualified people to go onto the fed. And that's because the economy is doing rather. Well now, and they don't want somebody in there who's going to end up putting it off track. And I think they're concerned that without a strong economy. Republicans really be in trouble. Quick selection, doesn't here's my question to you though that does that endorse my thesis because like Ben Carson. Obviously, a celebrated surgeon has no business running, HUD, and no one objected to that because they don't care. Well, I think there's I think there's a little bit of something to that. I mean, when you talk about the things that matter to them, what matters to most elected officials is getting reelected. And so I think most of their decisions are based on whether or not they think their position is going to help them get reelected or is or is going to harm them. Well, I think there's a whole lot to what your your thesis is. I don't think thank care about those other things. And what's also interesting about this? I mean, I think they're embedded in. This is also a failure of broadly, the left and the Democrats on some level because Morgan only be taking out because of the unbelievably crazy things that he's been saying grievously thing. Yes. I mean when you're called out on firing line for things that have been inappropriate. You know, you've got a problem if you're on the right? But there there has not been enough work done by the Democrats. And by the left to say that everything that Stephen Moore has been espousing, despite the fact that it also was grounded completely in no scholarship, or or nothing that is the cohesive in any way, but it has been the right wing and the conservative in the Republican economics that he's been espousing for decades. And the fact that the Democrats have not jumped on this. Whether it was Arthur laugh. For in more going into Kansas and destroying that state based upon what was pure Republican economics, and that is so much that we saw with with Donald Trump at his tax cut. I mean, there this needs to be clo- here, then go I'll just say like he would he would have been fine. If he didn't say all those dumb things even though like, obviously, he should not be on the Federal Reserve Board. Absolutely. I think that's the case because I think there is a tremendous amount of fear of bucking Donald Trump in this party. And I think the fed was one place where I think there was not enough knowledge about economics in about his like profound unqualified cigarettes actually thinking, but there's also like I always say this about supreme court nominees. Linda, they would there would be full revolt. If the president tried to pick like Janine Pirro to be a supreme court. Just no there would like that would be shown. So I hope said, oh, there would be and the reason is the same thing like they wouldn't worry about all the stuff that people say about why Lindsey Graham max away does or other people's at. They're worried about a primary challenge. But what I'm trying to say is give them more credit in some ways for their actions. Which is that they're doing what they actually believe in like, Republican senators like Donald Trump and agree with his governing agenda. Well, I think that's absolutely true. I mean, even I who may never Trumper actually agree with him on some things like his judicial nominees. So yeah, if Janine Piero or even Andrew Napolitano, whom I like a lot better than Janine. You know them were nominated. I think you'd see a revolt. There are all kinds of places where Stephen Moore level. People are in the federal government, which is the other problem. Right. Like, Stephen Moore, hurricane the reason. This is big news is they got too close to the crown which is Federal Reserve. But there are people throughout if you read Michael Lewis his book, if you've things that we've covered I mean, there are people throughout this government. That are Stephen Moore level who are running was going for something that was a little bit less high profile insensitive. He'd be one hundred percents end up being at that other place soon. I mean, Larry cudlow is there, and he really has no more soundness in anything. He says than than very nice guy. Maybe Stephen Moore is. But I mean, there's no soundness to anything that Larry cudlow has been saying for decades. It has been exactly the same thing. Regardless of what the context would cut get on the Federal Reserve Board with is he he made man enough in conservative circles the Federal Reserve Board. I I'm not sure and I wanna push back. A little bit against both of you on the question of how these are political decision. It was when Joni Ernst spoke out Republicans have problems with women voters and Donald Trump has real problems with women. It's again. So I think the sexism was much more of an issue with Steve more than his, you know, his sometimes crazy ideas, like the gold standard good point. And it's also I think a point about representation mattering, we saw Tim Scott, basically, take down a district court nominee whoever's views on race. We saw Joni Joni Ernst and schilling more capital. It does matter. You have people that are not white men representing your party because they do see the world differently. And these are examples of way that representation matter, Linda, Chavez and Sam cedar. Thank you both for joining me as it so happens. The most recent episode of our podcast wise is happening talks about the government agencies under the Trump administration that are being dismantled by its leaders either through Milan or benign neglect. Knuckled Lewis is one of the greatest nonfiction writers of our time. Might know him from some real underground works like moneyball or the big shore the blindside for his latest book. He turned his sights on what happened when Trump took office. He medium talk all about it. When you listen to with Todd this week that does it for all in. You can catch us every weeknight at eight o'clock on MSNBC. Don't forget to like us on Facebook. That's Facebook dot com slash all in with Chris Rosenberg. My new podcast youth, Rosenberg is based on a simple premise thoughtful conversations with interesting people like Jim Komi, Lisa, Monaco, and pre Perot each of them took an oath as I did to support and defend the constitution of the United States youth with Chuck Rosenberg. Listen for free where everybody get your podcasts.

Donald Trump president Democrats White House congress attorney United States Robert Muller Trump Bernie Sanders United States Senate Senator Richard Blumenthal Senator Chris Rosenberg Stephen Moore Justice department Trump administration Federal Reserve MSNBC Muller