11 Burst results for "Dcso"

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

07:42 min | 9 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"With an alternative route and say this was staged, putting that on again does not look like an accident, so what would what would even be the logic of putting that on him? I don't know. And to get into the mind and explain this to get into the mind of the person who did it if we're looking at that scenario, it's just a really hard question to answer. Is there a world in which I don't know anything about how the water flows, how it's flowing that day is there a world where, again, John is in the water, no matter how he got there, that the barrel could have flowed and landed on him, in the short amount of time that he was out there. So that's a scenario we'll get to that in a second because I have a lot of I have a lot of thoughts and scenarios about that, especially because of some stuff that was found on the bureau. But then I'll speaking of stuff that's found in the barrel, one of the big listener questions was if the barrel was ever tested for any kind of fingerprints or for blood evidence, and the answer to those questions is no, it wasn't. Again, another no that didn't happen kind of scenario. There is no documentation from detectives that the barrow was ever processed or collected and sent to the crime lab. It's not on the inventory for the things that FDLE did, testing on. The only thing that I could find that talked about the barrel in any detail was detective Kurt May's field reports, and he stated that when the barrel was first found, it had a sandy shoe print impression on the top of it that looked like it had come from some kind of boot. Do we have a picture of that? Does anyone have a picture of that? There are pictures of the barrel on the blog post for this, but no forensic impressions were taken to measure the size or the tread marks of the print. So, you know, to me, it could have only come from a few scenarios, but again, it's not like I have a photo of like, you know how they have the measuring stick next to it. And they're trying to take impressions or anything like that. But which is like bananas to me because again, like, did you look at the bottom of anyone's shoes that day? Yeah. Anyone? It's like, again, but to play fair here, they find this when they find John, and he's a drowning victim, and all this stuff, and they don't really go back to do any sort of detective work until the next day. Is the barrel gone by that point? Like, did they throw it back in the water? No, I mean, they took pictures of it, so it's still there, but I guess in my mind, they're not thinking to measure people's boots, like right then and there on day one. Again, this is me giving grace. I'm trying to give some grace here, but sure, day one, but like, as far as I know, they didn't collect a bunch of shoes after. I don't know, man. This is like, yeah, so to go back to your question of how that tread Mark got on to the barrel. There's only a couple of scenarios. One, John stepped on or kicked the barrel as he went into the water if we're going to believe he truly was alone out there in the Woods that day, like he just hit it with his foot, whatever. But the second scenario is someone else stepped on the barrel and they put John into the water, or they kicked it out over his body once he was already in the water. Or three. The sandy shoe print on the barrel is from some other event that has nothing to do with the day John died, which is what you kind of said earlier about floating or whatever. Maybe that barrel dislodged from the trash heap and it floated over to John's body after he went into the water, you know, again, maybe law enforcement disturbed it. I'm not saying the shoe print didn't come from law enforcement. I truly don't know, but I kind of find that kind of dislodged and then whenever John's body that last scenario hard to believe because Kurt may stated that it appeared to be like a fresh shoe impression in sand on the barrel and a few days before John's death, there was a lot of rain and Arcadia. So I doubt that sand would have stayed on that barrel like during a rainstorm, right? It's put there that it's the shoe print gets there the day in the events that led to John's death, or it's like, again, it's in some sort of scenario where law enforcement sees it, but it's definitely not, again, that wanted the question that I asked earlier, again, we've got this sandy shoe print. It's not John's in the water again. However, he got there. It's not like this thing was floating in the water and then ended up there with then how's the shoe print on there? If no one else had come by. And again, again, I know you want to give grace, but I'm here to be like, even again, even if you show up and you're like, oh, it's an accident. This barrel stands out, even if you're like, he fell in. If there was a barrel with a shoe print, I don't understand how you don't think that's significant. Yeah, and again, this is kind of out of left field, but I go back to, if anyone has listened to counterclock season two, one of the big things, no spoilers here, but one of the big things that they were able to catch Mike Brandon when I was talking about the break ins and all that kind of stuff in the courthouse is like he kicked, he kicked the walls in to try and get to the evidence vault and he found his boot prints and shoe prints and that's like one of the pieces of evidence they found on him was his boots and they like connected that. So I'm like, again, not a spoiler for those that haven't listened, but like that's like classic police like you have something that you can compare to a physical object. And so to not get that in this case, I think is just really, really inexcusable. I agree. But we must move on. So here's an interesting question that came in kind of along those lines. Did you ever consider interviewing people who previously worked dcso or FDLE around the time that John died just to see if they could offer any information about the strange activity, the way it was investigated or rumors that they heard about the department? So my answer to that is yes. I communicated or tried to communicate in one way or the other with everyone who worked this case. I was on the phone a lot. I was texting people. I even tried to convince a few deputies who'd previously worked for DCO to talk with me about the department's inner workings, but again, none of them wanted to go on record or be a named source because we're talking about a very small town with a lot of people that have a lot at stake. However, in the aftermath of season four, I did get a few people reach out to me and they had some really interesting information. Tell me everything. So, before I go into it though, I really need to, you know, I want to have caution here. I want to say that this next bit, I'm going to talk about has to do with some really concerning information that I recently learned about a key figure of law enforcement who had probably I would say the most important role in this case. Kim? No. James curdy. Oh. Okay, so what's concerning then? Well, I want to preface everything I'm about to say with sincere empathy and I want to let our listeners know that in no way am I making light of a serious mental health situation. But I think once I get into it and I kind of explain it, you'll see why I'm even bringing it up. So if you're out there listening and you're triggered by the discussion of attempts of self harm or you have any thoughts of choosing to take your own life, you guys should probably just skip ahead in the episode a couple of minutes. That being said, there is an incident involving James curdy from February of 2020 that I think should be something that a law enforcement agency like FDLE or the Florida attorney general's office or the state attorney's office should consider if they ever want to determine if the brief investigation that James did into the death of John wells was the most competent and informed that it could have been. So back in 2020, the Charlotte county sheriff's office, which is a neighboring agency to de Soto county sheriff's office, was called out to a home because the man inside the house was threatening to take his own life. And that man was James.

John FDLE Kurt May barrow Mike Brandon Arcadia Kurt James curdy Mark Kim Charlotte county sheriff's off John wells Florida de Soto county James
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

05:32 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"Writer and Patrick skinner. Upon completion of their interviews, their testimony was consistent with their original stories. I know memories fallible. Did you speak to him on the phone? I think so. What was his name? His name is detective James curdy. James curdy. I'm just out of county sheriff's office. I feel like my wife would know about that too because we were together in May, May of 2016. So that was a before I moved up here. Were you still in Arcadia? I was still in Arcadia. Do you ever remember a detective coming by, reinvestigating this case? I'm drawing a blank. If it was a quick phone call, I feel like I would remember now, just to be clear, I'm not saying James curdy lied in his report about interviewing Patrick. Maybe he did interview him, but I can't find the paper trail that proves that. The fact that Patrick doesn't even recognize James name or speaking with him at all, I think is devastating to the credibility of de Soto county's investigative process in 2016. And ultimately, the entire document James curtie submitted. I'm not here to cast judgment or say what's right or what's wrong, but this glaring discrepancy speaks volumes. I don't know why dcso has moved on from this case with no questions asked. I mentioned in the last episode that their motivation just being that they wanted to get an open homicide case off their books, just doesn't seem like a realistic reason to me. I mean, they still have plenty of unsolved murders in their jurisdiction. Some even date back further than John's. They've got open ended murder cases as far back as the 1980s on their roster. So why clear enclose John's case and not take any credit for it? Again, I think it comes down to a question of confidence. I would argue that the reason we are where we are is because mistakes were made and compounded, and perhaps covered up. Finding a way to conclude my investigation and really wrap my mind around this story has been tough. It's been emotionally draining. But I think where I've ultimately landed is that I believe John was murdered. If you're not convinced of that by now, that's fine. Maybe I'm in the minority here. But regardless of which conclusion you've come to, one thing I know for sure is that a lot of the people who knew John during the 17 years he was alive and the people tasked with finding out how he was killed failed him. For better or for worse, his family's nonstop infighting and their inability to get him to help he might have needed to deal with the behavioral and emotional problems he had, heard him. From everything I've learned about John, from the moment he was born, he was denied a chance at healthy, loving relationships that would have benefited him. And maybe even changed the course of his life. He was a young man with a big imagination and dreams. He liked animals. He liked the outdoors. You know, he talked about going to the coast guard. When he was little, it was so weird, he said, one day he wanted to own a general store, just sell everything, and I asked him, and I said, well, what's it going to be the name of that? He's just white cherries. I said, what? Yeah, white cherries. Don't sell lanterns and pickles and you start even weird stuff. I thought, well, that's good. John's actual family may have been scattered in tattered, but his close friends, people like Patrick skinner, considered him family, and still would, if he was around. I think we would have definitely still been friends. I imagine he would have kids by now..

James curdy Patrick skinner Arcadia de Soto county James curtie dcso John Patrick James coast guard
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

04:54 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"To tell them to come to him. Okay. All right, so they're just trying to get some information. That's correct. Right on article or something now. Aggravate the hell out of me. Okay. All right. Are they there right now? They're across the road, talking to my neighbor. But I think they're quite deep as part down there next to the woodbridge, and they look like they might be walking back down towards their vehicle. Okay, so it looks like they might be leaving. Well, they're not talking to him any longer. Okay. And he told him not to give him a culture of self. And I'm calling you to tell you that what I know about it. All right, and you said your first name was Patricia? That's correct. Okay. I said pat, but yes, it's Patricia. That's fine. Is your phone number? That's what I'm talking to you all. Perfect. Okay, so would you like me to send a deputy out the speak with you about it? I would, because you're walking up and down the road. Okay. They had stepped into the driveway off of the road going across in the pasture. Now, they're still on county property. They're not trespassing, but they're stopped there and they're discussing things. Right. And so they're probably going to be taken pictures or something. So if you could get a David to come down and ask them what to do and then make them tell you what they're doing. Okay. All right, I'll have someone on the way over, okay? Okay now. Was that your south of the four way stop? That's correct. Okay. I'll try to get them out there as soon as we can. We're just kind of a little backed up on calls right now, okay? Okay. Well, I understand you can't hold my hand, but nevertheless. That's all right. We'll try to help you out any way we can. All right. Okay. Well, thanks a lot. I've done my duty, I think. You're welcome. Thank you. Goodbye. It's really hard to put into words how surreal something like this is. Having the grandmother of a murder victim call the police to report that she's upset that journalists are operating within the law to try and figure out what happened to her grandson is something I've never experienced before in my entire career. While listening to the audio, it's hard not to chuckle at the tone and disposition of the dispatcher who's trying to figure out why pat is even calling. He seems genuinely helpful, but also genuinely confused about what she wants him to do. Something I think is even more interesting, though, is who pat asked to speak with when she gets on the line. Okay, Kim is not working today, is she? No, she's off. I emphasize again, pat and Kim's relationship seems weird to me. Why is pat asking specifically for Kim? What does she think Kim will do for her that any other deputy won't be able to do? Another thing this 9-1-1 call confirmed for me was that pat didn't just want us to be chewed away. She wanted to know what we knew. What we were talking to people about. She'd been watching David and I intently, while we were working, following our every move, and she was able to give the dispatcher a play by play of where we went. Are they on your property? Not at this point. Though they're out of the edges of the road. Who we spoke with and precisely where we were at any given moment. Are they there right now? They're across the road, talking to my neighbor. But I think they're quite deep as part down there next to the woodbridge. And they look like they might be walking back down towards their vehicle. They have stepped into the driveway off of the road going across in the pasture. Now, they're still on county property. They're not trespassing, but they're stopped there and they're discussing things. I can literally see it. Her peering out at us from behind her window curtains, phone receiver, hard pressed against one ear. Clearly, David and I just being in the area made her upset. But why? Why wouldn't she want us to find out what happened to her grandson? That's one of many questions I have for pat and dcso. What's frustrating is that pat has declined my request for an interview and so has Kim Lewis. I've also sent multiple requests to the sheriff's office, asking to interview the county's current sheriff, James Potter. But those inquiries have been ignored as well. The department has no reason not to talk to me. They can't claim that case being under investigation as an exemption anymore. Why? It doesn't seem plausible to.

pat Patricia Kim woodbridge David dcso Kim Lewis James Potter
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

07:00 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"Really good chance he would survive. That's a pretty wild finding when you stop and think about it. If John had been hit by a 17 caliber bullet, shot out of a 22 revolver, anywhere else on his body, other than his eye, he might have survived. I find that really compelling and extremely tragic. 22s are very deadly weapons. They can be. I mean, and the fact that this was using the wrong ammo made it less deadly, but it still killed him. Had that shot hit him right beforehand. I don't really know what happened. But there is definitely a good chance that he would have had a survivable injury. And I guess that's where I would leave it on that. So if we're looking at a scenario where someone intentionally shot John, then the shooter more than likely had to have known that they needed to shoot John in the face if they were going to kill him with a 17 caliber ammo shot. I guess to be fair, though, you also have to consider a scenario where maybe the shooter never intended to kill John, but they picked up his revolver, they accidentally pulled the trigger, and by sheer coincidence, the bullet entered in the exact area of John's face that caused the most damage. These are all factors and scenarios that one would think bevel Gardner and associates would have considered and worked through before delivering their final findings to James curdy in 2017. But for some reason, the firm didn't. And I want to know why. When I contacted bevel gardener and associates for this story, the firm declined to comment about its work on the John wells case. A secretary told me that because they were a private entity, they weren't obligated to provide me with anything, which is true. For months, all of my emails to the group's 5 partners have gone unanswered. And the only address I could find for the business is a billing address in Edmund Oklahoma. The first of many questions I have about BGA's involvement in the case is why James curdy chose them as a consultant in the first place. It seems strange to me that the DeSoto county sheriff's office, a small department in the middle of nowhere, Florida, would ask a forensics firm in Oklahoma to evaluate John's case. In 2017, why didn't de Soto county just take its new theory to FDLE again? A state agency it had already worked with. Why not choose a forensics consulting firm in Florida to look at the case? There are plenty of them. Why tap bevel gardener and associates for the job? The answer to that question remains unknown. This whole idea, though, of bringing in a third party firm to prove something isn't a murder, has always puzzled me. It felt unusual. And doctor William Anderson, the initial medical examiner on John's case, shares the same sentiment. Have you ever worked or been familiar with bevel gardener and associates? Or heard of them? No. I mean, this is the type of thing you'd say if the police are sure it's a homicide and nobody will agree with them. Because they want to make sure that they can prosecute a homicide. So that's when you would bring in somebody of everybody disagrees that it's a homicide and the police think it's a homicide. That's happened occasionally. But the other way around is just I've never heard of this happening before it's amazing. Doctor Kent harshbarger, a forensic pathologist with decades of experience, is also perplexed as to why DeSoto county sheriff's office would hire bevel gardener and associates as a consultant instead of a state lab or even the FBI lab. After reviewing the firm's 5 page report, Kent was surprised and honestly a little concerned by how BGA staff spoke with a sense of authority on things, they had no credentials to be weighing in on. I think it's unusual. I don't think it's wrong. They're like problem I have with the report and I just, it's assumption I'm making. I don't know, they talk about cause of death. Well, they're not qualified. If they're a crime scene analyst people, great, but to say he could have walked and all those some of their comments that they put in that report. Unless they have the appropriate consultant involved, but a crime scene person shouldn't be making those kind of comments in my opinion. I'm not sure I'll ever feel super awesome about the whole bevel gardener and associates de Soto county relationship, but regardless of why the two entities crossed paths, the fact remains that they did, and the result altered everything for John's case and his family. The last type of testing airing conducted before wrapping up his work for us involved firing 17 caliber ammo from the revolver to see if any bullets could be matched exclusively to that firearm. The police have always assumed that the bullet doctor Anderson found in John's skull was shot from his own gun. But technically, back in O three, FDLE could not say for sure because the bullet didn't have rifling on it that allowed them to say with 100% confidence that it was shot from John's revolver. When Aaron conducted similar tests, he was faced with the same challenge. Because 17 caliber ammo is too small for the barrel of a 22 caliber gun. The bullets don't get microscopic etching on the sides, essentially a fingerprint for the gun they come out of. Rifling like this on a bullet allows examiners like Aaron to say for sure what specific gun the cartridge was fired from. Aaron says the lack of rifling on the 17 caliber round that is alleged to have come out of John's revolver is super important to this case because it can't rule out other 22 caliber firearms as potentially being involved. My associate producer David Payne asked Erin about this specifically in one of our interviews. With law enforcement being able to definitively say whether the bullet recovered was from that particular gun that they think was the murder weapon. No. In fact, very critically because there's no rifling engagement. There's going to be no tool marks left behind on that bullet to identify it to that particular firearm. Any other gun that is a 22 Magnum chamber firing that type of ammunition would be indistinguishable scientifically. So if the testing we did on a firearm that's identical to John's shows it's highly unlikely his Ruger revolver went off accidentally. Then I think we have to at least consider that James curdy and bevel Gardner and associates findings could be wrong. Which means the information they provided doctor Russell Vega was wrong. And the end result is that John's case is no longer being investigated as a crime. But I'm not sure it can stay that way for long. Despite dcso being so convinced that.

John James curdy DeSoto county sheriff's office de Soto county bevel FDLE bevel Gardner BGA Oklahoma Kent harshbarger John wells Florida William Anderson Aaron FBI Kent Anderson David Payne Erin
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

05:39 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"No. The police never came by and talked to you since you were a next door neighbor? No. So just to recap here, Martin hollingsworth is the only person I found in this entire case that heard a gunshot in the window of time that we know John was killed. What's more, Martin lived steps from the crime scene, and according to him, not once has law enforcement ever spoken with him. How it's even possible that no one ever thought to interview John's next door neighbor to find out what he heard saw or knew is beyond me. I mean, there were two agencies working this case, the sheriff's office and FDLE. So how did Martin hollingsworth slip through the cracks? I find myself asking an even more concerning question. Did local deputies who were initially tasked with going door to door, intentionally overlook Martin and possibly a lot of other important information and evidence in this case. I mean from the very beginning of the investigation in O three, everybody knew everybody. The suspects, the police, the victim, now that's to be expected in a small town with a small police force, but for one, pat and DeSoto county detective Kim Lewis admit during their July 15th crime scene walkthrough on the VHS recording that pat new Kim and her father and her family really well. Just as an example, if that was the case, I don't think Kim should have ever been the lead detective conducting pats interrogations. I'm not saying Kim should have recused herself entirely from the case, but she certainly should not have been the main person dealing with pat, which, from all indications, she was. The second thing I can't wrap my brain around is the fact that DeSoto county sheriff's office never seized pat's clothing from the day of the murder. The only items of clothing law enforcement ever took from pat were a pair of white tennis shoes. According to police reports, the day after John was found, deputies went back to pat's house and asked her for the clothing she'd been wearing on July 8th. But she told them that she'd done laundry the night before. So deputies just dropped it. But I want to stop and break that down for just a second. Pat told police that mere hours after John was found dead, on July 8th, and she's reeling with grief and hosting people in and out of her house all evening that she found time to do a load of laundry. Why that didn't stick out to DeSoto county investigators as just odd is strange. Regardless of whether she said she washed her clothes or not or did actually wash them, deputies should have still taken that clothing for testing anyway, just like they did for skip and Patrick. The third thing that's always seems strange to me is that skips phone call records in police reports are visible. But every number that pat straight are called on the afternoon of July 8th is redacted. If pat was just as much of a suspect as skip, then why has the sheriff's office protected her calls from public record, but not skips. You can't argue with any of the facts here, and maybe it's not enough to convince you, but before you ride off a connection between pat and dcso as just coincidental, keep listening. The last thing that I think is probably the most glaring oversight police made back in 2003 is the fact that they did not impound or process the blue green Ford explorer that they knew had been driven all around the crime scene by one of their prime suspects. Nowhere in evidence logs or police reports can I find a shred of paperwork that states authorities impounded that vehicle and searched it for clues. They did, however, as I've mentioned in previous episodes, and pounds skips pickup truck, and they tore it apart. The results of that examination, though, have never been reported. And just to be crystal clear, I don't think the importance of the explorer can be overstated. That SUV belonged to pad, but John drove it the most. He had driven it to Walmart an hour before his death. Pat had driven it to get gas and her and Patrick wrote in it to the trash pile. John's gun, holster, thigh strap, and belts were placed into it. Pat Patrick and skip all rode in the explorer right after finding John's body. This car is a critical piece of evidence. Patrick skinner thought the same thing when I interviewed him. In fact, after his first few interviews with investigators in O three, he said he never heard what happened to the explorer, or any of the vehicles that were known to be on the property when John was killed. They never seized the explorer or impounded at a process it. Did you ever know that? I did not know. Does it surprise you to know that they didn't? Well, I didn't know they impounded skips. If they tore that apart, I would have, I would have to think they would have torn this apart if they think they had probable cause of terrorist truck apart. Do you think of the two vehicles? This one should have been looked at since. Well, that's the one that we actually took over there. I mean, this was what John drove for the most part. John did not have really his own vehicle, everything belonged to his grandmother, but John drove this more than anyone. And this is what we were in. When we found him and what the gun went into. So it's, I guess, yeah, that's a little odd to me. So why.

Martin hollingsworth DeSoto county pat John FDLE Kim Lewis pat new Kim Martin Kim dcso Pat Patrick tennis Pat Patrick Patrick skinner Ford Walmart
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

09:07 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"Shot revolver and a handful of hornady brands 17 caliber bullets that authorities had found in it, and some extras they'd found in a box at pat's house. These bullets had a very distinct red tip on them, and were technically undersized ammunition for John's type of revolver. But they could still be shot out of it. When the sheriff's office had taken possession of the gun and ammo on July 9th, they'd found 5 live rounds inside the cylinder, along with one spent shell casing. In early September, fingerprint analysis results came in, and they showed only one fingerprint was found on John's revolver. Patrick skinners. Now, that didn't come as too much of a surprise because Patrick had already told police that he picked up John's gun at the crime scene. His print was going to be on it. What's interesting is that only Patrick's print was on the gun. Did you find it odd that John's fingerprints weren't on that gun? Absolutely. Why so? Because John's gun. I mean, he takes care of his things, but he doesn't wipe him down every time he touches them. They come out of my possession into their possession. Okay? Obviously they were very careful not to touch any part of the gun. But the skip and pat, I mean. So for it to pass through my hands, skip hands. I don't know if she ever touched it or not. I don't remember. Even though it was in a holster to not have anyone with my fingerprints that's just weird. If someone wiped the gun prior to me getting there is the only way that I can see the only that my parents would be the only ones on the gun. The state at that house that night up until the cops actually went and seized it. John's fingerprint should have at least been on it. Why John's fingerprints weren't on his own gun feel strange to me too. The next finding by the lab had to do with a Coors light beer can from the trash pile that authorities suspected John could have used to smoke cannabis out of in the Woods. Well, their theory about that was off, because testing on that item showed no traces of drugs were present whatsoever. So that put to rest once and for all, law enforcement's initial assumption that John had gone out to the Woods and used the can as a makeshift pipe. The next report from the lab was for swabs of gunshot residue taken from John's body. But for some reason, FDLE declined to run tests on those swabs. Staff stated in their report that because John had been submerged in water after his death, GSR testing wouldn't provide any information of value, so they just didn't even attempt the test and sent back the swabs. On a separate note, nowhere an FDLE reports could I find information about what they found or didn't find in skip's pickup truck. Over a period of weeks stretching from September until December of 2003, results for blood and ballistics tests came in. Staff had spent those months comparing the spent shell casing that was found in John's gun to the bullet found in his head to see if they were a match. Various lab techs had test fired 15 bullets from John's gun, using the 17 caliber ammo they'd seized from pat's house. They wanted to determine if that brand of 17 caliber ammo would even properly fire from John's gun. Like I said before, the 17 caliber ammo was undersized for that make and model of revolver. So it wasn't really meant to be shot from it. Their conclusions were as follows. One. John's gun was functioning properly. Two. There was a high probability that the empty casing found in his revolver was fired in his gun. Three. Because the 17 caliber ammo was undersized and left no rifling characteristics when it exited the barrel. The lab couldn't say with 100% certainty that the bullet retrieved from John's skull, matched that empty casing. The bullet that was found in John's head did not have enough distinguishable microscopic characteristics about it. For the lab to say, yes, it's a 100% a match. The best they could do was say that the spent casing found in the cylinder had likely been fired by John's gun. As far as whether the discharge bullet matched that was unknowable. The fourth thing the lab concluded was that John's particular model of Ruger evolver had a distinct safety mechanism in it that prevented it from firing accidentally. Even if it was cocked and loaded. It had what's called a transfer plate between the hammer of the gun and the firing pin. That transfer plate only moved into place to complete the chain reaction of firing the gun if the trigger was pulled. So in essence, the revolver could be loaded and cocked, but unless someone applied enough pressure and pulled the trigger, it wouldn't go off. This was a really important point because it was the lab's way of saying, hey, the ballistics on this gun show it would be extremely difficult to override this safety mechanism. So it's pretty clear someone else shot this kid. What most supported that conclusion were additional ballistics tests. Lab techs didn't do traditional GSR testing on John's skin. But they did visually inspect his boots jeans and socks for the presence of microscopic burns or gunshot residue. But they didn't find any. The lab determined after test firing John's gun from several distances that traces of burned black vapor residues from the gunpowder could have traveled as far as two feet away from the end of the barrel. Unburned particles of gunpowder traveled as far as 6 feet from the end of the muzzle. So that meant the gun was fired at least several feet away from John at the time it discharged. Otherwise, they would have found traces of gunpowder on his clothing and shoes. The next round of forensic results came in about a week before Christmas in 2003. These results were analyzing which items of evidence showed the presence of blood. According to FDLE report, small traces of John's blood were found on the barrel of his gun. One of his belts, the thigh strap, the Coors light can and on several spots on the four Wheeler. Specifically, there were specks of his blood on the ATV's right side fender mudflap, the center console, and right clutch handle and brake lever. Authorities believe that blood evidence proved John had been shot in close proximity to the four Wheeler. If not sitting on it when he was killed. The cylinder of the revolver, the gun holster, the towel pat wrapped it in, another one of John's belts, and olive skips clothing, along with pat's white tennis shoes, did not have John's blood on them. For some reason, though, FDLE wrote in their report that they did not perform blood tests on the red stained plastic wrap and clump of sand from the crime scene. They also didn't swab the trash trailer for anything. Tex also didn't test several hairs they'd found on skip socks, jeans, and John's clothing. They never provided an explanation as to why none of these items were examined for traces of blood. But the red stained sand and plastic wrap seem like pretty significant items of evidence to me. Unfortunately, as 2003 came to a close, the forensic results had left investigators no closer to making an arrest. While they'd been waiting for results to come in, DeSoto county detectives had tried once to get the state attorney's office to consider bringing charges in the case. In fact, according to paperwork, dcso wanted to arrest pat and skip for evidence tampering in hopes of getting them to crack. But the state attorney's office was like no way, and they declined to press charges. Instead, they told authorities to wait. And detectives took that advice and waited. After the disappointing results from the first round of forensic tests, the department sent off all of their items for additional DNA testing. But those results were expected to take anywhere from 6 months to a year to complete. You've got to remember, this is 2003 we're talking about. The infancy of DNA analysis for labs. In the meantime, detectives had to move on. They wrote in their reports that the circumstantial evidence they'd gathered so far pointed to skip being the best man for the crime, and possibly pat was involved too. Something that bolstered their belief was information they learned after two interesting conversations with skip's girlfriend in August of 2003. And Matt wells,.

John FDLE pat Patrick skinners Patrick Coors Ruger evolver Wheeler ATV dcso Tex DeSoto county tennis skip Matt wells
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

07:56 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"Plus. This is episode 11, switch. In November 2007, four and a half years after John wells was killed. The Florida department of law enforcement crime lab, packaged up all of the evidence related to the case and sent it back to DeSoto county sheriff's office for storage. The stuff in the box is in bags included John's Ruger revolver, DNA extracts from previous testing done in 2004. The unfired 17 caliber bullets, the wood spent shell casing, the holster, the belts, and all the other stuff that investigators had taken or swabbed from the crime scene or suspects. Around that same time, the wrongful death lawsuit Helen had filed against pat and skip was in full swing. With the exception that skip was no longer named in it because he died of a heart attack shortly after it was filed. So that left pat and Helen to duke it out in court. Over $15,000 in damages that Helen wanted. That legal fight would still be a few years from resolution, which meant DCS O detective Kurt maize still couldn't get access to pad, a suspect who had never fallen off his radar. Kurt was left with really only one option to continue submitting case evidence to forensic labs hoping new advances in technology would provide him with more clues. And because FDLE had sent everything back to DeSoto county, Kirk could easily get items of evidence to labs for further testing. But he didn't do that right away. Instead, he waited two more years. In December 2009, Kurt sent John's revolver to DNA labs international, a private forensics lab in Deerfield Beach, Florida, about a three hour drive from Arcadia. The lab was asked to perform touch DNA extraction from the grip of John's gun, and the cylinder. Areas that a person holding it would have had to press their skin close to if they fired it. Those little nooks and crannies could have held traces of DNA that prior tests had been unable to pick up. People say touch DNA and air quotes, a lot of times, like it's not real, but it is real. We've been testing it. We've been getting touch DNA results for the past 16 years. That's Allison noons, chief operating officer of DNA labs international. What I called to ask if she'd be willing to talk about her company's work on the John wells case. She agreed, with the exception that we talk in generalities, not case specific details. She also invited her director of research and quality assurance, Rachel a fly to join us. The lab has a policy of not disclosing information about specific cases they've worked on. Unless the investigation into those crimes has been resolved in the courts. From reading through the case file, I knew that by early 2010, DNA labs international had been unsuccessful in retrieving DNA from John's revolver, despite their best efforts. According to a report submitted to dcso on January 12th, 2010, lab techs with DNA labs international said they didn't find any DNA profile on the gun or the cylinder after running multiple tests. Allison and Rachel told me that back then, most touch DNA requests that came in were worked as thoroughly as they could be. However, due to technology limitations at the time, DNA extraction was harder to do on a piece of evidence like a firearm that had already gone through fingerprinting several prior rounds of DNA testing by another lab, and then sat in storage for years. Sometimes there's mistakes that are made that could contaminate the evidence so that you can not use it. Sometimes depending on someone might have, they might have lost a chain of custody. At some point, which is detrimental to the case, if you're ever going to go to court. So there's this various challenges when it goes from lab to lab, but there's so many things we can do now that it's common to see that. I'll get into those things that Allison just mentioned they can do now in a future episode. But for the time being, back in 2010, DNA labs international being unable to find any genetic profiles on the grip or cylinder of John's revolver, left Kurt Mays with yet another dead end. He'd taken his shot in the dark and got nothing in return. To add insult to injury, Kurt spent months spinning his wheels investigating a tip from a prison inmate in the Florida Panhandle named Richard estes. Richard claimed to have knowledge about John's murder. Richard's story was that he'd been at a party in a motel in Arcadia in 2007, and overheard a person talking about the murder. But he refused to provide authorities with the name of the alleged killer until he got a reduced sentence. Kurt eventually determined Richard's story wasn't credible. In early 2010, pat and Helen's wrongful death lawsuit came to a close, and the judge did not side with Helen. For the rest of 2010 and most of 2011, Kurt tried to talk to pat a few times, but got nowhere. Then he moved on and conducted a few more interviews with John's friends, and even drove to re interview Ralph strader. Pat's brother in law, who law enforcement news skip had called the day John died. According to transcripts from that interview, Ralph told Kurt that he couldn't recall any more, whether or not skip had specifically told him on July 8th that John had been shot. Ralph said, it might have been the day after, or even a few days after, when word got out that the ME had found a bullet in John's head. Ralph told Kurt that his fading memory just wasn't strong enough. And he ended the interview saying, regardless of what he remembered or didn't remember, he felt confident that Patton skip were not involved. After that interview, nothing really happened in the case. Until May of 2011, that's when DeSoto county sheriff's office sent John's right boot back to the FDLE lab to have touched DNA extraction done on the heel. If you remember, John's right boot heel had been the only thing not submerged in water when he was found. Law enforcement's theory was that John had been dragged to the water, possibly by his feet with his shoes still on. But unfortunately, no DNA was found on the boot heel. For the next 5 years, nothing happened with the case. It stayed dormant until 2016, when Kurt May's retired, and the investigation got reassigned to a new detective, James curdy, a newcomer to the de Soto county sheriff's office, who'd previously worked for other law enforcement agencies in Southwest Florida. Within a matter of months, James made up his mind as to what he believed really happened to John. According to what he wrote in his reports, James spent the first 6 months of 2016 reviewing the case evidence and re interviewing key witnesses. By the end of his evaluation, James determined that John was responsible for his own death. In a 6 page summary of his findings, James explained that he believed John was carelessly playing with his revolver cocked, while at the trash pile, and it fell out of his hands or out of his holster, which caused it to accidentally discharge several feet from his body. In his opinion, James felt certain that after John's gun went off, the teen didn't realize he'd been shot, and in a disoriented panic from the burning sensation flooding his eye socket, John stumbled off the ATV and crawled roughly 40 feet.

John DNA labs international Kurt Helen John wells FDLE Florida department of law enfo DeSoto county sheriff's office pat Kurt maize Allison noons DeSoto county Arcadia Rachel Allison Deerfield Beach Kurt Mays Richard estes
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

02:14 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"If we screw this up, there's no getting out. Sean tube and Academy Award nominee Glenn Close. Everything depends on you. Tehran now streaming on Apple TV plus. This is episode 9 sketch. 2006 was an active year in the John wells case, probably the most active it had been since late 2003, which was a good thing, because the three year anniversary of John's murder was looming, and the de Soto county sheriff's office and Florida department of law enforcement were still no closer to figuring out who killed John. They had strong suspicions and some shaky circumstantial evidence, but nothing to really hang their hats on. Things had sat at a standstill and the state attorney's office had made it clear they would not be moving forward with filing any charges until investigators could prove more. But in 2006, the detective who'd taken it upon himself to keep the case from going completely cold was Kurt mayes. Kim Lewis was not a point person anymore, and the FDLE special agents who'd assisted with the case early on had officially wrapped up their involvement. The agency filed a final report in June 2005 that said, quote, there hasn't been any new information since December 2004 regarding this investigation. It has been decided that this investigation will be closed until new information or evidence warrants further investigative procedures. This case is closed. So Kurt maze was pretty much going at solo for dcso, and he was up against tough odds. Unfortunately, Kurt declined my request for an interview for this show because he still has close connections with the Soto county sheriff's office that he doesn't want to compromise. But based on what I've read in his reports from 2006, it's clear that he went back to square one at the start of that year. I guess with the intention to see if by starting over, he could find something new. In late April of 2006, Kurt asked Patrick skinner to once again come into the sheriff's office to discuss John's case..

Sean tube FDLE de Soto county sheriff's offic Glenn Close John wells Kurt mayes Kim Lewis Academy Award Tehran John Kurt maze Apple Soto county sheriff's office Kurt Patrick skinner
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

07:28 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"You guys have heard me talk about meal kits before on this show. And HelloFresh is one of my favorites, and it now owns green chef, another advertiser I've talked about before. Both offer a wide array of meal plans to choose from and the recipes are seriously out of this world. I think they're secret is that they know how to diversify seasonal recipes and bring you a big variety of food. For example, I recently had to feed myself, my husband, his brother, and my father in law. And thankfully, with HelloFresh meal kits, I was able to serve up turkey dishes, chicken dishes, salad, whatever, and I was able to satisfy everyone's appetites. And the best part of all of it is that I didn't have to go grocery shopping for all of those recipes. They were delivered right to my doorstep, and it made cooking easy and fun. So what are you waiting for? Go to HelloFresh dot com slash counterclock 16 and use code counterclock 16 for up to 16 free meals and three free gifts. That's HelloFresh dot com slash counterclock 16 and use code counterclock 16 for up to 16 free meals and three free gifts. A lot of people ask me, what do you do with your free time? Do you listen to a lot of true crime podcasts? Do you read books? And I do all of those things, but I also play a game on my phone and tablet that I love called best fiends. Best fiends is a free to download mobile puzzle game with thousands of exciting levels for new adventures and challenges every time you play. What I love most about the game is that it's always evolving. There are brand new events and challenges that pop up all year round, so I always have a chance to earn exclusive in game items, characters, and rewards. Not to mention the game is just super colorful the graphics are great and the characters the fiends are so cute. There are dozens of unique fiends to collect and you can customize your team of fiends to defeat menacing slugs. So what are you waiting for? Give it a try. Download your new favorite getaway, best fiends for free today on the App Store or Google Play. You'll even get $5 worth of in game rewards when you reach level 5. That's Friends without the R, best beans. It took to Soto county sheriff's office about 15 minutes to assess the scene, and at four 45 p.m., paramedics pronounced John dead. Shortly after 5 o'clock, deputies called the district 12 medical examiner's office in Sarasota, and asked for an Emmy investigator to get to the scene and examine John's body further. According to case documents, I retrieved from that office, the investigator who made the drive was named Megan zim rack. By 6 30 p.m., Meghan had arrived and joined 7 men who worked for de Soto county sheriff's office, which included a captain, a lieutenant, a major, the sheriff, and a detective. Meghan's report and police narrative state that John had not been touched or moved by anyone in between the time he was first found and when all these investigators arrived. He was face down, mostly submerged in about two feet of water with the back of his right foot and boot sticking out of the water. He was wearing blue jeans and had no shirt on, and floating in the water partially on his back was an old rusty drum. Littered all around the scene in every direction where pieces of trash, metal, and garbage. Photographs of the site are on our website and in the blog post for this episode. They'll help you visualize this scene much better. The images do not show John's body. Parked about 30 feet to the right of where John was, was a four Wheeler, with a wooden trailer attached to the back of it, with trash and a rake still inside of it. Helen and I went through the photos together during our first interview. So here's the, here's the ATV. Right. And then the water is over here. He was found over here. Yep. I think that's after they drained it. It was only two to three feet deep. It wasn't deep at all. And that's after a pretty shallow. Yeah. And you'll see the pumps in a minute. They had a flirty pump. So do you think all these pieces of metal would have been covered by water? They were covered by water. After snapping the pictures, investigator Meghan's sim rack felt John's body and noted in her report that it was warm to the touch and was in full rigor mortis. She turned him over and with help from some others on scene, fished him out of the water by his belt loops. One look at his face showed he had a swollen cut on his right eyelid. But other than that, he looked perfectly fine. Meghan wrote that there was a little bit of blood coming out of his nose and some foam at the corner of his mouth. Within a few minutes, Meghan and the deputies preliminarily determined that John had fallen into the water somehow, and struck his head on a piece of rebar or old pipe, which rendered him unconscious, and he drowned. They brought in some water pumps and drained most of the ditch in order to take some more pictures of the rusty metal shards. After that, Meghan and dcso called the medical examiner in Sarasota to tell him about their drowning theory, and the doctor, a man named William Anderson, agreed it sounded like a drowning accident. He scheduled an autopsy for the following day, July 9th. After that, John's body was removed from the scene and transported to doctor Anderson's office. By 8 o'clock that night, Helen received word that her youngest son was dead. Next thing I know, I'm getting a deputy in my yard saying that my son's been in an accident and, you know, that was unbelievable. I go down the hallway and I open up the door in the cop is pulled up in the driveway and he's like leaned up against his car with his arms crossed and just like a straight face. So what's going on? He's just wait a minute. And I said, what the hell, man? Well, your son's been in an accident. And I said, which one? And he didn't know, or he didn't tell me or whatever. And that, that's when the lightning hit me. I kind of remember because I think I asked the guy what happened did he really explore? 'cause my first thing, you know, he was driving fast, you know, had a wreck. The deputy broke the news to Helen that John was gone, and after that, everything was a blur. But I remember I was in the shower. I don't know what kind of felt sick or something it was kind of like spinning or whatever, but I had all my clothes on it. And I just couldn't believe it. By nightfall, extended family members like Laura wells had learned about John's passing too. We all love John..

Meghan John Soto county Megan zim de Soto county sheriff's offic Sarasota App Store Emmy Helen dcso Google William Anderson Anderson Laura wells
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

08:22 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"Glasses start at $95, including prescription lenses. Try warby Parker's free home try on program, order 5 pairs of glasses to try on at home for free for 5 days. There's no obligation to buy. Everything ships free and includes a prepaid return shipping label. I love the try on kit. I got to try different sizes, different rims, different colors, and ultimately landed with the one that I loved. So try 5 pairs of glasses at home for free at warby Parker dot com slash counterclock. That's warby Parker dot com slash counterclock. If you're in search of a modern unique bouquet with a 100% happiness guarantee, you need to use urban stems. Urban stems bouquets range in flower variety, so they have things like tulips and roses and really any kind of flour you want. Each delivery includes a personalized note to your recipient, thoughtfully designed packaging and of course a 100% happiness guarantee. Finding the perfect gift to say something special to someone special is easy with urban stems. You can choose a vase at checkout or send a bouquet with a vase already paired with it. What's awesome is that urban stems delivers next day, nationwide. You can also join the urban stems flower subscription program. It includes free shipping up to 25% in savings and there are three different plans you can choose from. Shop at urban stems dot com and use code counterclock for 15% off your first purchase and free shipping. That's urban stems dot com with code, counterclock. For 15% off your first purchase and free shipping. In written statements and her recorded interviews with police, pat alluded to the possibility that John might have been up to things he shouldn't have been back in the Woods on July 8th. She said she wasn't sure what exactly he could have gotten into, but he'd recently displayed some behaviors that she felt were clear indicators he wanted privacy and didn't want her meddling in his recreational habits. Detective Kim Lewis pressed pat to be more specific, but she didn't give specifics. I guess as a way of being more blunt, Kim straight up asked pat if John could have been doing drugs right before he died. And pat didn't outright confirm that, but she also didn't squash the suggestion. The audio quality of that part of her tape recorded interview isn't good. And at one point, the tape even cuts off, which is why I just recapped it for you. But my point is, when you look at the transcript of their conversation, it was actually detective Kim Lewis, who first suggested it could be possible that John was consuming illegal substances. I think she did this for two reasons. One, Kim knew at that point that John's autopsy showed he had drugs in his system, and two, Kim wanted to see if pat would confirm that, or maybe allude to another piece of evidence she'd hidden from the scene to protect John from people finding out he might have used drugs. But the tactic failed because pat didn't confirm anything. This isn't the last time, though, that this preconceived notion that law enforcement had about John may be using drugs in the Woods that day will pop up. According to police reports, at 1 o'clock on July 9th, while dcso detectives were interrogating pad and simultaneously doing interviews with skip and Patrick, the DeSoto county sheriff's office called in the Florida department of law enforcement, also known as FDLE. Together, deputies and state agents had gone back out to the southeast hansel property to process the crime scene, or at least what was left of it. By that time, the four Wheeler and wooden trash trailer had been moved back to pat's house. There were various sets of tire tread marks in the pasture, leading to and from the crime scene, and a ton of shoe tracks and footprints were all around the area near the trash pile. All of that disruption is what crime scene experts call scene contamination. Now, it wasn't done intentionally in John's case. The commotion occurred when emergency responders initially came to the scene and thought they were just dealing with a drowning accident. To try and make some progress, though, FDLE had their crime scene tech do as good of a job as he could in terms of processing the scene and collecting items that he thought were potential pieces of evidence. First, he inspected the ground where the ATV had been parked and noticed some small red stains and smears on some blades of grass and vegetation. Then he picked up a Coors light beer can and noted that it, quote, was fashioned into a pipe. After that, he bagged a piece of plastic wrapping that appeared to have a red stain on it, and scooped up a handful of sand that also appeared to have a dark red stain soaked into it. Everything else FDLE seized as evidence included the Honda four Wheeler, the wooden trash trailer, the rake that was in the trailer, John's 22 revolver, the 5 unfired 17 caliber bullets that were in it, the holster, the leg strap, two of John's belts, the towel pat said she'd wrap those items in, John's jeans, and boots, and socks, as well as skips clothing and shoes. Law enforcement only took patch shoes though, not the clothing she'd been wearing the day before. When they asked her for them, she said she'd done laundry overnight after John died. So police just dropped it. The one saving grace FDLE did have in order to get an idea of what the scene looked like closer to the time John was killed, where Emmy investigator Meghan sim racks pictures from the scene. Those are some of the photos you can see on our website, counterclock podcast dot com. These pictures provide proof of where the four Wheeler was parked and give a good sense of the scene before everything was totally disrupted. They obviously don't show John's gun holster belts or leg strap, though, because those items were removed before anyone got there. But thankfully, Meghan was thorough enough in her picture taking and did get a lot of shots of the ground around the ATV. And those images showed some of the dark stained areas that the FDLE tech had collected evidence from. The pictures also showed some weird lines dug into the sand that state agents determined could be indicative of drag marks. So between what the FDLE guy found and what he gathered from the Emmy investigators report and photos. Law enforcement wrapped up their crime scene processing by mid afternoon on July 9th. They towed the ATV and trailer along with skip's Ford F two 50 pickup truck to their lab in Fort Myers. They immediately started figuring out what they could test and what they'd have to send off to other labs to determine if blood, DNA, or traces of drugs were present. Now, the traces of drugs thing is an important theme here. Based on their reports, both de Soto county investigators and FDLE were convinced that John had smoked some kind of drug out of the Coors light beer can while he was back there in the Woods. I literally can't find anywhere in the documentation about what their specific basis for this was. Other than the fact that they just thought it could be possible. But reading between the lines, I think the reason they were so convinced of it was because again, doctor Anderson had told authorities that cocaine and cannabis had showed up in John's toxicology screen. I wanted to explore further this idea that John used drugs. And to best do that, I tracked down his old high school sweetheart, a woman named Beth flowers. She's married now and has since changed her last name to waldron, but she went by Beth flowers back in 2003, and I should note, she's no relation to our executive producer Ashley flowers, by the way. I want to know him around like age 12, I would say. So 1112 until he passed. We actually.

warby Parker FDLE pat John Kim Lewis Kim DeSoto county sheriff's office Meghan sim Coors Emmy Patrick skip Honda de Soto county Wheeler Meghan
"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

CounterClock

03:29 min | 11 months ago

"dcso" Discussed on CounterClock

"Of content for a small struggling newspaper, it was going to make a great story for Steve to break. I remember seeing the report and going holy cow, this is different than anything I usually cover. This isn't school board story, this isn't somebody getting pulled over or somebody leaving a kid in a van, which happened way more than it should have. It caught my attention because it was so different than what I would usually see in the reports. So I knew there was a story there. And when you get the police reports, they're like very short. A couple of sentences, maybe a paragraph. And so I knew I needed to get more details. And I also knew that this was going to be probably the front page story the next day. Steve published a brief piece about John wells that showed up in newspapers the next day, with a headline that read local teen found drowned in canal. After reporting his first article, Steve went back for follow-ups, but he noticed that his normal give and take relationship with the DeSoto county sheriff's office slowed to a trickle. There were a lot of off the record conversations and strange hushed talk behind closed doors. Gone were the mornings were Steve and Bill wise would drink coffee together and discuss the crime blotter. For Steve, this drastic change alerted him to a very important reality. One that any good journalist could pick up on. Something was up with the John wells case. Law enforcement couldn't tell me anything yet except for he was found. We thought he drowned, but now there's a bullet wound. We don't know anything beyond that. So right after the coverage, it was a lot of, we don't know yet, and we'll let you know when we're investigating and we're looking for suspects. But I don't ever remember there being something concrete to grab onto to warrant a story other than repeating the same thing that we repeated before. Steve was forced to hold off on his reporting for the time being, until law enforcement gave him something more to work with. Most people in the community avoided talking with Steve on the record because he was with the media and he wasn't originally from Arcadia. So, without police or public participation, Steve was stuck and had to move on to other stories in the meantime. From law enforcement's perspective, that's exactly what they wanted. You see, because while Steve was fishing around for more of the story, investigators were in the beginning phases of their own hunt. A hunt for a killer. By noon on July 9th, they were creeping close to being 24 hours behind on the case. Remember, when dcso and paramedics initially responded to the trash pile off southeast hansel avenue on July 8th, they claimed there was no gun, no bullet casings, no way for them to have known that John was shot. And in terms of physical evidence, that is all true. But remember the 9-1-1 call John's grandma placed to report finding him. Well, I listened back through that call a couple of times, and there's a very short part where she brings up something important before the dispatcher quickly interrupts her. Do you hear anything or anything? No, ma'am. He took his pistol with him, but then we found that this last time when we was walking around and we couldn't imagine. Can you tell if he's breathing.

Steve John wells DeSoto county sheriff's office Bill wise Arcadia John