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Murder in Alliance /// Part 1 /// 520

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1:08:19 hr | Last month

Murder in Alliance /// Part 1 /// 520

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This week we are very happy to be featuring green slush by our good friends over at wiley roots brewing company. I'm not one who is much for the sours. But boy i gotta tell you this is a must try and look. We still have some summer left so if you want something. Delicious colden refreshing. Well this is it. This baby's got it all. And if you like watermelon while you're going to love green slush garage grade four bottlecaps anna five and a big cheers. Goes out to our friends right here. I stop a cheers to share in framingham massachusetts and a big south tehran and spokane washington next a local cheers to joe in marion ohio. Quick here's to my buddy. Jo that tresor right captain. Intros is awful at it sears. To you make and a big. We like to dip to kelly in philadelphia and. Here's a cheers to nigel over in ireland and last but certainly not least. We have ms pamela and melbourne australia. Everyone we just mentioned well. They went to true crime garage dot com and helped us out with this week's fear fund and for that. We are grateful. Yeah for that. We like them just a little bit more than we like you. So thanks for the. Bwi are you in a beer run for more true crime garage. Checkout our premium. Show off the record on stitcher premium. You can go to the true crime. Garage dot com to sign up and get a month for free and that's enough of the business all right. Everybody gathered around. Grab a chair. Grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. July fourteenth nineteen ninety nine when date thirteen nine hours. My name is detective bud samson. We're in the ravenna. Police department interview room along with me is detective way muck low and detective. John leitch of the alliance police department. Also in the room is job. Took advantage of me and towns that as rubbings third april i nine hundred ninety nine alliance ohio alliances in the northeastern part of the great state of ohio north of canton and east of akron back in nineteen ninety nine there were about twenty three thousand people living in alliance which is in stark county. One of those people was twenty-six-year-old yvonne lane. She was found murdered in her home. Now homicide is not a normal thing an alliance back then. We typically see about one homicide a year. Sometimes none von lane was a mother. She was not living alone. She was found by her mother. Yvonne's mother tanya lane went to the home of her daughter and found a shocking scene on that april first. Tonya found you von dead with her throat cut and she was lying in a pool of her own blood. Her five young children were in the house but were unharmed. There was a lack of forensic evidence but there were two partial bloody footprints found at the scene. David thorne you ex boyfriend and the father of one of her children was instantly a suspect. David was eventually tried convicted and sentenced to life without parole for the murder of yvonne. The police got their best lead. When a woman named rose mar contacted them to say that she and her boyfriend chris campbell spoke with a young man named joseph wilkes and incredibly. Joseph told them he was in town because he had been hired to kill a woman eventually. Joseph wilkes admitted to having killed you von and he claimed that david thorne. You vons ex-boyfriend hired him to do so. He also gave the cops a detailed account of how the pair had planned the murder. This confessions and david thornton prison for the rest of his life. Joseph wilkes is imprisoned as well his serving thirty years to life. David thorne has continuously claimed. He is innocent and he had a strong alibi for the time of the murder. His family and a number of organizations are currently conducting a campaign to have his conviction overturned because they believe the investigation may have been botch or even worse covered up. Those who believe in david thorne's innocence suspect that the police botched the case. But we're determined to get a result so they concocted a murder for hire plot forced confession. This is true crime garage and this is the case of you. Von lane cal joining us in the garage today. We have maggie freeling. Some of you may know her from the disappearance of mara. Murray documentary series. That was on oxygen a couple years ago and i believe right now the people they want to watch it. It is currently streaming on peacock. Maggie is also the host of the unjust and unsolved podcast in. She is conducting an in-depth investigation into the murder of twenty six-year-old yvonne. Lane a case that some say is unsolved because they have convicted the wrong man in this case l. o. maggie before we get into the meat and potatoes of this case in your investigation all of these years later. How are you doing. And how did you find. This case. also is so great to be back with his eyes. I'm doing alright recovering from covert actually so. My voice is kind of gone in this case very long time ago i guess at this point working on it for a year maybe almost like two years ago. I found this case. I was in touch with david. I don't remember exactly if i came to sue his wife or if she came to me but it was brought to my attention. As you know this case twenty two years this guy who a lot of people say has been wrongfully convicted for all that time and hasn't had anybody. When i first talked to david he told me his case was dead in the water and he was right. It was used up. All of his appeals. And it's an incredibly complicated cases. We'll get into so. It was really to find people who were willing to take it on pro bono and so i decided to look at it. I didn't episode four on justin unsolved. And afterwards i was just like i can stop thinking about it because there's so much here on it kind of drove me little crazy and i just said you know what i i need to do. An entire series on this david thorne is one of the men that have been convicted in this case and he was an ex boyfriend and the father to one of your vons children and he's been locked up for over twenty years in this case. Now this is in ohio so at alliance ohio and it was a case that actually received. I was a little surprised at received more media attention than i had speculated on going into it but and there was a book written on the cases. Well i couldn't find the the title of the book. do you recall it. The author of the book. If we're thinking about the same it wasn't on the case it was brent turvy. He's a forensic expert. He looked into the case and he actually has two books. One is on what not to do it. A crime scene features this case and another one murray similar so they are actually to forensic textbooks now if you could go ahead and tell us a little bit about our victim here you von lane. She's a mother of five children. Is that correct. Five kids twenty six years old. The oldest kid at the time was ten. She had her first cave when she was sixteen shoes. Jehovah's witness from you know what family has said in. An friends said at the time she was trying to get back on track trying to become a devout jehovah's again but she also had five little kids and had to make ends meet. And you know what we know. She wasn't really working. She was on welfare and she was kind of struggling to take care of all the kids. One of the children's fathers different dads he. His parents were taking care of one of the kids who is disabled. The oldest kid lived with his grandparents to. She was taking care of three of the kids on her own. Three of the children living with her at the time of the murder. Yes and actually. There was the fourth child with her at the time because she was trying to get custody back of him. The vinnie the disabled boy who actually becomes kind of a big part of the story as he was there when the murder took place. He was in the home as well. Brandon preston vinnie and trenton rural. Home and david thorne. One of the men have been convicted. In this case of her murder he knew her from high school and then they reconnected. Years after high school is that correct. Yeah so they met at a vocational school. She wanted to go to school for cosmetology and he was going for decal making david's really big into cars so they wanted the same vocational school either. Junior senior year of high school and saw each other in the hall didn't have classes together. They were taking different classes by. He saw her in the hall and was really struck by her. Everything we've heard is that. She's absolutely stunning. Knockout babe. I guess a couple years later he they were at a car parts shop. She needed to fix her car and bumped into him and he was like. Oh al sircar for you. And that's kinda how it how it started and david is the father of brandon so where does brand and fall in the order of children and from my understanding. He finds out about having a son with you. Von after brandon is already brought into this. Yes it's really complicated as we get into later in the season the children in her pregnancy is but brandon is the second youngest her. David were together somewhere around about a year. They broke up she because the father of a couple of the other kids. None of them were confirmed. The only confirmation we have is brandon from a dna test with david but so the alleged father of a couple of the other kids hearn. Him were on and off for about ten years so they had a very complicated From what we understand actually abusive relationship so her david broke up because of him. You know he's the father of a bunch of the kids. there was just. He was always going to be in her life things tumultuous in her david. Kenny went separate ways. She calls him. You know a couple months later. Maybe nine months later. Saying i had a baby. It's yours that's kind of how that happened. David was dating another girl at the time. Who was kind of like the hell. You're ex-girlfriends calling you and you. Now have a kid une things out pretty complicated for the two of them from what we know they were trying to. Maybe get back together. David says that they were talking about that. We have heard from other family members that you know there were talks of engagement rings. So david von were carrying on behind the scenes relationship while they were both seeing other people after brandon was born and they found out they had a kid together. Saw gets really complicated. Well and i love the way that you describe it in your series murder in alliance. Because i think it really sums it up very nicely in a nice in the package where you say eric. The other guy who fathered multiple of the children as far as we know that's always been the the belief or understanding. He's the bad guy. He's he's somebody that she just can't seem to quit for whatever reason maybe it is because they had such a long relationship or they had so many children together. He's always going to be around and david and her just didn't work out mainly because of this other guy because of eric always being there and you said that you know david seemed to be kind of the the more stable individual that she would kind of turn to when things weren't going right with eric or when she had had enough of this guy. Yeah i mean that's kind of what it seems like to me. I mean her. And eric from what we know. They would beat the crap out of each other like really physically abusive. I talked to her son. Preston in the interview. Eric's allegedly in the podcast. Eric is allegedly his father. He thinks eric says father many says yeah they were pretty freely frigging violent to each other. So you know david every account we know. Is this kind man who would take her back. He loved her and take care of her. During those off times with eric and you know we bring up the fact that we don't know who the dad. Nah we don't you know for certain know who. The dads are the other four children. Not in any way to shame her anything but it does get complicated. When you're talking about. Who could have done this. There are many multiple men out there who could have fathered her children who we've heard rumor that she had been pregnant with their children. So there was a lot of people that needed to be looked into. Not just david. Eric wants david finds out that he is in fact the father. What is his behavior like it. It seems to me like he was willing to to step up to the plate and be as much of a father be involved in brandon's life as much as possible from every account we have heard even at trial from the social worker who is dealing with the custody and child support payments. They had an amicable relationship amicable. There was no fighting over brandon. There was no custody argument. It was basically. You know you're gonna pay child support. Okay you got to go to court and figure out how much legally get into an agreement for that and what we've heard from. All of those people is fine. Great david was happy to pay child support. David wasn't trying to get custody of brandon from what we know. Everything was fine and very sadly you von only twenty six years old. She's killed inside her home at her residence sometime before april first nineteen ninety nine and so all these years later. We're talking over twenty one years later. What is the relationship between david in brandon. Today i mean this is a this kid very sadly his mother is killed when he's young. I'm i'm uncertain of his age at the time of the murder but then to double down on that tragedy. His father is put away for life in prison. Brandon was to at the time so he doesn't really remember much at all about the murder or his mother but you know their relationship is. It's strange brandon visited david all the time. When he was a kid people would bring him but as the years go on he becomes a teenager. I mean he l- lives his own life. I mean they talk. He believes in his dad's innocence. He of course wants his data out but other than that. I mean he's just two twenty something kid living is life and he's you know that's kind of it. It's it's definitely sad prison. These things really break up. Emily's investigators came up with a rough time frame of when they believe. The murder went down and win. It took place in you. Von lanes residents that night sometime on march thirty first nineteen ninety nine and we have david thorne who has been imprisoned all these years yet. He was three counties away with a solid ironclad alibi for his time that night. Take us through the timeline of the how we get from this guy not being able to be a suspect because he has an ironclad alibi to now. He's in prison. Yeah i mean and that's that's it's complicated. I mean we've put together a time line but we're still you know it's it's confusing. So the time of death for yvonne is some time. This is the coroner's report some time after seven. Pm march thirty first so there is an actual fourteen hour window. That she could have died. Her body was discovered around twelve. Twelve thirty april fools day. She died sometime around seven. Pm the night before they couldn't really say other than that. So you know from there. David was looked at right away. He's the father of one of the kids there recently in court for custody and he's smart his grandfather smart and instantly got him a lawyer. The lawyer came and that was that was it. David never talked to the police again. So the police row is very suspicious. Because david dot a lawyer and didn't want to talk to the police which we listen to my podcast or any of the cases that you guys have covered about potential wrongful convictions. I mean that's a pretty smart thing to do to get a lawyer and not talk to the police because who knows what will happen so they took that as he's guilty he won't cooperate with us so they were always on him since then trying to figure out you know how he did this. There were a couple friends in their friend group that the police had brought in. You know asking them if if they they were always onto this kind of murder for hire because david had alibi that's berry certain so they thought okay well. He obviously wanted to get rid of her so he must have paid somebody to do it instead of you know looking at the severely abusive partner who yes was in prison at the time however was incredibly abusive and if was going to hire somebody he could have to. There's other you know baby daddies and south so for whatever reason they're hell bent on david and sometime around in july they hear the name joe wilkes and they kinda hone in on joe as being the person that david hired to murder yvonne and they bring in joe who is a really sad character and he confesses and said yes. David paid me to do this so it was about three months later that they actually found the alleged complex he immediately confesses and david is arrested that day. July fifth fourteenth or fifteenth. Whether it's a little more complicated than that because oh yeah the for for law enforcement to get to david's motive. There's some twists and turns. That has to happen. Which are you talking about. We'll just thought idea that law enforcement's motive is this is about money and so he doesn't want to pay child support and he's this broke guy and he's so broke that he would rather hire somebody to get rid of her and then he won't never have to pay child support but then at that point he would be so kosti which would cost them a lot of money and then the fairly the fact that we now know that he had money. David had money. And i've seen the account. The statements from the account. David had one hundred and thirty thousand dollars in an investment account. He was working. He is going to swap. Meet so on top of that. That was money that he just got. When his father died is dad was a veteran died by suicide so david got a lot of money from his life. Insurance know military life insurance so he had and he didn't need to touch it because he was working and making money working and he was doing really well he had car. Is he going to swap me. It's selling parts for three hundred dollars. A pop. i mean child. Support was only three hundred and fifty dollars a month which i guess in nineteen ninety nine was a lot more than now but he could make that money selling a car part. It's definitely an interesting motive that they came up with especially when nobody said there was any issue with the payments or custody or anything like that law enforcement. I'm coming up with the motive of well. We've been together on and off again and she's always on it on again off again with eric to me. That makes makes more sense of a motive that while i want to get rid of her because you know she keeps leaving me for this the scumbag and i'm the guy that's always trying to help her out and she just can't see that that makes more sense to me of a motive. I mean there is definitely as we get further in. There's many more motives and you realize that. Almost everyone around her had motive to kill her pretty much except for david because again what we know is that he loved her. They were trying to get back together. He was planning on buying her rain. So it's definitely interesting. I think to if i were someone sitting on the jury or looking at this case even all these years later. I look at the as the the child. Support is kind of a a blanketed statement that encompasses a lot of different possible motives for david thorne where it could be not only does not want to pay the child support but if he is going to be paying for his son brand he would prefer to have no have custody of his son. He may also blame look. Brandon was not being raised in the most wonderful of of worlds and he may have blamed her for some of that. And i mean there's a lot of stuff going on here as well and there seems to be some some back and forth between david's current girlfriend and when he had to see yvonne because of brandon There there's really just a lot could have been bubbling up to the surface at the time that that could fall under that sort of child support blanket of of motive here but as you pointed out there are other people that would have motives of their own. In fact we see that there are a lot of other people now before we get into them. We should say that. During the course of the arrest and then the conviction i police are led to this joe wilkes by individual that contact the police department saying that she spoke with mr wilkes on the night of the murder so exactly so so the time line. The night of the murder allegedly has according to joe's confession is he was at the carnation mall. Which is about four miles from yvonne. Taus downstate straight. If you're familiar with lions and it's just a straight shot down this main main road not really a highway but three lanes each side road. He is at the mall around closing time and he bumps into these. Two people rose more and chris campbell and he sees them then he leaves walks to her house and kills her according to them. He tells them that he flashes a knife and tells them. I'm here to do a job. And according to rose. That job is to kill a girl. Some guy hired him to kill her and according to chris. Some guy's girlfriend hired me to kill her. You know their stories are so interesting because in their original statements to the police rose specifically says the knife was not a pocket knife. He flashed me an eight inch knife in a sheath by trial it is now a pocket knife. The exact weapons. She said that it was not but this is how joe's name comes up three months later. A woman calls. The police saying women in the buildings daughter knows something about this. And that's kind of how it all started spiraling at the beginning of july. So they get in contact with joe wilkes and as we know. It's a it's a pretty quick. It seems pretty quick from the time they pick up. Joe wilkes to getting the confession. We're not talking about days later weeks later that they get a confession. It's relatively pretty quick once. He becomes on their radar. Now who is joe wilkes. What is his tie into our victim. What is he his tie into our other suspect. So joe wilkes at the time he was a teenager. Eighteen eighteen or nineteen. Joe was a drifter he was kind of known around town. As this kid. That would just sleep on people's couches. He had a really really sad traumatic life growing up. He was abused by his parents him and his siblings. That put in a foster home where he was also abused. Were talking mental physical sexual abuse so he had a really tough life growing up. He is actually a pretty smart kid. He does not have a low iq but definitely you know had so much trauma that learning was not easy for him. He grew up with shake like palsy so when people talk to him they always think he's nervous but it's just this physical disability that he has from all the abuse zeno people like david. Were just really nice to him. I mean he looked up to david. David was much older than him again. Joe is around eighteen. David was twenty. Six at the time of the arrest of there was an age gap. David kennesaw this kid in. If he saw him walking on the street he'd give him a ride home or you know. He helped him by his first car and a lot of the the fringe group that i've talked to. They all say that about joe. I was a really sweet kid. He was just kind of always around and he didn't have a home. He was homeless boy. David took care of him. He was you know at the time of the murder. He was staying at a girl girlfriend's house or the time of the arrest at the time of the murder. He was also staying at a girlfriend's house. So that's kind of who joe wilkes is he. He was a scared kid. He was emotionally disturbed kid. And you put him in an interrogation room with three detectives who knows what can happen. Amazon key and garage delivery has arrived. It's a super easy and convenient way to amazon deliveries and keep them safe drivers leave packages inside the garage instead of on your doorstep so you can receive them a safely from your garage whenever you're ready. Here's how it works. Drivers skin your amazon package. He verifies the delivery and that the driver is at the right address and that grants along time access to open the garage door and make a delivery driver. Leaves a package and your preferred location and closes the garage. You don't even have to share your garage code. You can control when you receive packages in your garage versus your doorstep. With ingram's delivery you can stop worrying about packages gone missing or getting damage. 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Most of my socks now are baba's socks because the comfort is better. The quality is better. And i loved the style. Go to bomba's dot com slash garage today and get twenty percent off your first order. That's b. o. M. b. a. s. dot com slash garage for twenty percent off baba's dot com slash garage. Well he's it's a very emotional confession from what we hear anyway. Because you play some of the confession tape on your show murder and alliance and i've gotta tell you maggie. It's it sounds awfully convincing me when we hear that. Confession from joe wilkes yeah. Well you know. It's it's one of those things where nineteen ninety nine. They were not required videotape. The whole thing. We don't have that so we just have what what is on tape. These are short tapes. I mean this is a half hour each of them. There's two tapes. They talked to him the first day half-hour they go back the next day and pick up saying. Hey there's some things we we left out and they talk to him again for a half hour. The entire taped confession is an hour long. And if you've ever seen an interrogation or you know anything like that it's it's pretty common that the when the tape turned on is not when they first started talking so the question is always been what happened before the tape was turned on. Your law enforcement calls it a taped confession but seems like joe has a different story about that. He says it's naive in questioning from the beginning. It's it's simply Interrogation and he. He made some other claims as well. Yeah joe says that you know. They had him handcuffed to a wall and they spit on him and they were being aggressive to him. And you know that is joe's word but you know in one of the episodes. I go into all these officers backgrounds and if that did happen it would not surprise me. I have come across you know. Some false confessions coerced by them. I mean they're they're personnel files. One of the lead detective samson is personnel files. Pretty pretty damning with he's hit with lying forging documents. So you know. He was on the officers. Who who took joe's confession. You know something we we always forget. Even forget is that they went to him. According to joe saying David is in the next room. And he's he's putting this on you. If you tell us what happened. You will get a deal. So they did dangle a deal in front of him and as we know joe got thirty to life for taking the deal and saying quote allegedly what happened and as we know. David was not in the next room. David never talked to police. David had not talked to the police since that one time he went in with them with a lawyer and said i'm not talking to you and that was it so they did lied to him saying david's in the next room giving you up that's something to keep in mind. You know that's part of the what happened before the tape was turned on. That's really interesting to me too. Because you have scenario. Where according to our witnesses chris campbell and forgive me i see more of her rose more. According to witnesses the lead detectives to joe wilkes he. He's saying some guy hired me to kill a woman. It doesn't say that david thorne hired me to kill his ex girlfriend. Some guy hired me to kill a woman. So that leads them to joe wilkes but it doesn't necessarily lead them to david thorne yet. They're very quick to be saying david thorne sitting in the next room. And he's turning on you kid and it's going to be your ass that we put in the electric chair and fries and it could have been. It could have been this eric guy. It could have been several other individuals that would have hired. Someone like a joe wilkes to commit this murder now. The general statements inside of that taped portion of the confession or interviewer interrogation or however. We want label. It is basically the joe wilkes saying. I'm i'm remorseful for what i did. I kind of knew the victim. I'd met her on several occasions. I think that w- it's general knowledge that he even been to her residence at least one time before the murder and he says you know. I was remorseful for this the night that i did it. And and you can hear. I mean he's he's sobbing throughout a lot of the the confession and he's basically says look. I know this guy been friends with david thorne for for years. And he's complained about yvonne and he's complained about you know not wanting to pay child support that he wanted custody of his son and i had nothing to lose. I had hit rock bottom. I had no friends. I lost all my family. You know the only friend i had was david thorne and i had no money. No prospects he joe wilkes his life it. His childhood is incredibly tragic and sad it. Just i mean it's heartbreaking. What he says took place during the course of his childhood but then even after he gets away from that it seems to me like his life is always this roller coaster ride of. He needs help. He gets some help and whether he follows. You're not is is up for debate. But in this case he says our loss pretty much everything. I had hit rock bottom. My friend who i thought was my friend. David thorne took advantage of that took advantage of me and he offered to pay me and help me out. And he convinced me to go and kill this woman and not only kill her but kill her at a time when he david thorne could. It couldn't lead back to him. It would be impossible because he would have that ironclad alibi. And let's go through the timeline of events as it as it were according to joe and his confession and let's let's keep in mind as we go through this everybody out there and listener land that we're talking about a confession that was it's also it's a confession from joe wilkes but it's also a story that is backed by by the state or at least by the prosecution in this case and you have to wonder a lot of things fit nice neat and perfectly. I got to see that right upfront. You're magazine. they're they're they're a lot of things like when we go into these cases and you're talking about an unsolved murder and you're looking at different suspects. We're always looking for a smoking gun right here. It's kind of the reverse of that when you're looking at a possible wrongful conviction. You're looking for the smoking gun of why this guy is innocent and it's really tough to find that here because you have a very unique situation. Where joe wilkes could be guilty of this murder and david thorne had nothing to do with it. Now on the flip side of that coin is that if joe wilkes did not kill you von lane. Then david thornton didn't have anything to do with it. i mean it just. It wouldn't work out that way. So the timeline as it were according to joe wilkes and the prosecution is what when win does this because we start seeing things actions being made. According to joe the day of the murder the he says involved david thorne so the day before. So we're talking the thirty first. Which is the day of the murder yes. He allegedly go to the mall in the after in the afternoon. Rent the room and they get forget if it's the glove. I think it's the gloves they get the gloves that afternoon. And then david brings joe back to the inox where he was staying staying with a friend and then david goes about his day. He goes to his his martial arts class. He brings his lion cub. You know what that's how. They knew for sure he was there that night. He got a lion cub with him. Which isn't unusual for david. I mean he had wine cubs and he brought them around with him So the police did try to say he made this obvious alibi blah blah blah. I mean i. I don't know that's up for debate. I guess but so. That was the alibi. Joe allegedly gets a ride to the mall. That evening brent knock. The father of joe's friend said yes. I brought him to the mall. He wanted to stay there. He said he was staying there and then they say that joe walked to her house sometime after seven. We know he was seen at the mall. Allegedly by rose and chris around a so he wouldn't have gotten to vaughn's house until at least nine nine thirty and then you know. She founded twelve thirty the next day. That that's really what we know. Joe says the next morning. David picks him up. This is where things a little dicey he says. David picks him up the next morning. Sometime around eight thirty nine looks like he made a phone call from a payphone to david. I'm i'll get to the phone calls in a minute around. eight thirty. david was at work and he had to take a lunch break and he according to david went to mcdonald's came back within a half hour is only a half hour break while his boss spoke to police instead it was like an hour an hour and a half actually which would give david time to go to the mall. Pick joe drop-off gel and get back to work. So that's you know. The story from the prosecution is that david dropped. They got the room the night before the day before. David picked him up in the morning. Got back to work. Nope no questions asked. It was a normal day. Everyone seemed normal. So that's that. I mean i could get into the phone calls and stuff. How do you wanna go from there just to kind of back up some of that statement as far as the prosecution's concern i. We have david thorne leaving work on the day of the murder on the thirty first. What about twelve twelve thirty day. And then we have joe wilkes checking into this hotel that's attached to or near the mall and he's checking in at like one forty seven. I think one forty eight that day. So that i mean that kind of lines up with what joe statement is that david pick me up and we kinda talked about how this was going to go down. He gave me some money for. Gimme a hundred dollar bill to check into the hotel room. Because that's the other thing you have to lay out for the court proceedings is. How did this broke guy. Get money to stay in a hotel and buy some items to commit the crime and so he says david gave me the money to check into this hotel room. That kind of fits. The time. Line is working in the favor of joe and against david here where it's lining up. The david could have possibly have left work. That day picked up. Joe wilkes taking him to the hotel they get. The gloves takes them back to the the e knox's their last name the the family that he was staying with a friend apparently he he needed to go back for a couple of reasons. Sounded like he had scheduled. Something with brent. Inox that for that afternoon or evening. And then brent is the one that takes him back to the hotel now. He can't if somehow he does murder. This woman in the trail leads back to joe wilkes david thorne in joe wilkes can't have that happen right. We can't have a night where all of a sudden this kids staying in a hotel room and the trail leads back to him. No so he tells brent that i'm going. I'm just drop me off at the mall because david thorne's going to pick me up there and we're going to go back to his place. I'm actually going to be staying at his place that night and then the troubling thing as you said we we have. According to joe wilkes he goes and walks to the victim's home. She knows him so she lets him in. They have a very brief conversation. And then he says he takes the knife that he purchased that night and he uses it to slash her throat. And this was i mean. This is horrific the wound itself. I think you described it as what eight inches. It's eight inches deep in four inches wide. I mean she was decapitated the smallest bit holding her head on and according to the medical expert that they present at court the given would have been alive and able to react for a very brief period of time. We're talking seconds probably before she would have collapsed. According to joe's confession that does take place that she jumps up off. The couch goes toward the sliding glass door. I believe it's a sliding glass door. Says something asked him like why you know. Why did you do this to me. He says that he told her that. David thorne asked him to or paid him to do that. He trips over something and he. According to joe he left. They're very quickly. This is one of those things where i could go on either side of the fence very easily. You could sway me either way. The difficult thing here is one would expect there to be a lot of blood on the suspect on the murderer and there was a lot of blood at the crime scene itself. We do have the prosecution. And they're what they're saying is that he managed to knock it hardly any blood on him at all because the difficult thing now for our murderer if it was joe wilkes he has to walk. What about four miles back to where he came from and not have anybody. Which no one did you don't you don't. It's not every day that you're driving and you see a blood covered man on the side of the road. Walking in the opposite direction won a couple of things in the favor of that story is we're now talking. It's probably ten o'clock at night. Yeah if we are to believe his story. It's definitely dark by this time so it doesn't lineup completely with that seven o'clock time of death which that's probably more of a window rather gave the window was up until she was found they really had no idea like a twelve hour. One no idea but also joe is a very tall individual rate. He's six four. I mean so. You're going to notice him if he's walking on the side of the road that doesn't mean he's not going behind houses gwen behind buildings to get their thing. We've mapped it out. You can't really go behind houses buildings so you. Yes you're right it could. It could be goes down. And i wasn't there in ninety nine but sue was sue. Thorn is now david's wife but it's been his advocate since the beginning and she did this with her son. Same time of night back then. I think she did it in. Like oh five or something to put her son in what joe was allegedly wearing and had him walk down the street. And it's you know this is a street that is strip malls. I mean like i said. It's a very busy highway on their lights. Everywhere so he he definitely would have been seen There's no straight shot behind houses. He would have to be zigzagging that would take three hours as opposed to the hour and a half so if he did it he probably walk down the street and again you know i find it. Really incredible to believe he wouldn't have blood on him. Clothes that were found did not have any evidence on them. So it's it is interesting. I mean he could have walked without blood on him. The clothes don't have blood on them. But like if you see the crime scene that makes no sense to me. Jobs led them to a knife and bloody jeans a allegedly joe. So a big part that we're missing. Here's joe recanted. Almost immediately after at trial in his testimony he says the police told me what to say. So i pretty much immediately. After he recounts and said you know the police force me to say this and they told me where they were going to find this knife. That's not my knife. i didn't have that knife. They told me we're gonna find your nice here and then dig out this knife from a storm drain. So that's been joe's new story. Joe's changed the story a few times over the years from i understand he has indeed. The thing is ever since he recanted. The story has changed but the fundamentals of it really happened but david had nothing to do with this. He has stuck to that for twenty two years. That david had nothing to do with it. You know one story. He went over there killed her one store he went over there she was already dead. Do you know. I think there's another one floating around but they all do put joe there. I'm he is not said otherwise but he says he didn't do this. You know he went and saw her already dead which is really interesting because nobody else puts jobs there or if in fact we talked to people who put joe at the mall and say no. He was doing x. y. at the mall. He wasn't wasn't killing somebody at that time. But we always talk about this in here in the garage when you have someone confess especially when you need to find something you know murder weapon murder victim or anything else that was involved in the commission of the crime you as an investigator. You're looking to have that individual lead you to that item and you do that so that when they do recant that you can say well tough cookies. You obviously lead us to the murder victim or the murder weapon or something that was used in the commission of the crime. It's kind of hard to deny. Now say that you weren't there when when you gave us this item now here. In this case he leads them to some pants that he threw behind a friend's home in like the woods or tall grass area and one. That's just bizarro to me like if if you didn't commit this crime who's just throw in pants in the woods at at somebody's house whether they knew them or not. Now i understand. There's no it doesn't sound like anything of evidentiary value or found on these pants. They were found months after as you said july and she was killed march thirty first. Maybe april first at the latest. But they're found months later and they have nothing of evidentiary value on them again. What are those pants even doing there. And why does he know that there. There is is bizarre if he didn't commit this crime yet whether or not the police told him where they were going to find this murder weapon or the folding knife is. Let's set that aside because what we are being told per the case file is at the actually located two different knives. Is that correct. So yes there was actually at least four knives found war yes so so. That's like a complicated part. But when they went into the storm drain there were two other knives in there with the alleged murder weapon and they actually found the day that they were searching the murder. Not three months later About a block away. They found a knife matching the knives in her kitchen. Set on the street so to me. That seems like a more likely murder weapon. This knife that was from her home. That actually looks very similar to a bloodstain on the couch. Where the killer seems to have wiped off the blade. It is almost an exact fitting for this kitchen. So yeah there was many knives found. There's also the incident at the mall where This witness says. Oh i saw joe buying actually pocketknife but that was a month later in. May i have the receipt for when i was there so this witness actually presented a receipt saying this is the day i was at the mall and actually saw joe. They're buying pocketknife. So of joe did by knife allegedly. it wasn't even until a month after the murder and correct me. If i'm wrong here maggie. There's a lot of moving parts and pieces. I'm trying my best to follow along here. But if we are to believe joe story he's telling us that he purchased a pocket knife or folding knife. The blade was what three and a half inches plant one. Yeah three point one inches on that blade and you said again that the the the throat. The wound was how many inches deep four. It's four okay so we're awfully close. There seems maybe possible but then think about the without getting too descriptive. Well there's no way of getting around it if you're eating lunch stop turn it off If if someone. Because according to joe wilkes statement as far as i understand it it sounds to me like this wound was a one and done right. He's not there's not. he's not cutting multiple times when you you're hitting it exactly. So that's every expert who's looked at this case since then has pretty much said if not have said that that pocket knife would not have made this cut in four. Let's get incredibly gross here and say if he or anybody were able to successfully make that cut using that weapon as it's been described by all parties involved we all agree on the dimensions. In what type of weapon is. That's not in dispute here. But if he were to do that then the hilt or the part that the knife folds into would have to be. Forgive me for saying so buried in the neck of our victim. And how i get that. You didn't find it for months later. But how do you not find blood on that weapon. I don't care who wiped it clean difficult there. And then this bizarro thing of these all these knives being found around the neighborhood who who lives in this neighborhood has its like dwight. Sh- rootlets concealing weapons. All over the place. I mean it's it would be weird to find john rambo Yeah i i mean. It's it's just difficult now. The next morning though. What gets difficult for david. As far as joe wilk statement goes we do have phone records that say that a payphone is calling david thorne and we have the boss his boss saying david thorne left and we have joe wilkes saying david thorne picked me up so the a lot of interesting things happen at trial so the trial was was a in terms of the defense horrible. In or non-existent. David's lawyer died of alcohol poisoning very shortly after he froze to death outside of his home Because he was so intoxicated and he passed out in the winter so he was drunk the whole trial so you know the prosecution. Brings you know this expert. Who testifies about the knife and says she could stole live for a few seconds to ask why after he cut her neck in. David didn't have any rebuttal. Any rebuttal witnesses. There were three witnesses called. Two of them were character. Witnesses and one was this guy who said no. I saw him by the knife in may so david's team was never called an expert to say. No knife wouldn't do this or never called an expert to wonder to say you know. Why the hell is there. No evidence on this never called an expert or somebody to talk about the phone records. Fortunately the phone person was not lying on the stand and actually said during the prosecution's cross these calls don't seem to have been answered. actually yes. he's calling him but it's they were not answered so sure. Joe called david but it would appear that he never answered the calls Which is really interesting. And then of course the other thing that happened at trial was the prosecution called the social worker for the child support and the social worker actually recalled herself for the defense because she didn't like the way the prosecution portrayed her testimony she was like i want to be recalled and came on and said actually. They had a really good relationship. I don't wanna be you know. Have the prosecution twist my words on record so you know. Those are two things at trial that that were good. Despite the horrible defense will also prosecution. Keep some evidence out of the trial. Yeah they wanna go there please. Yes if we had a incredible amount of brady violations one of which is a witness others to witnesses but one of them's really key a witness. Who says he saw a man leaving the home around ten thirty. In the morning of april first yvonne was likely dead around ten thirty in the morning on considering she was found at twelve. Thirty in the timeframe of death was sometime after seven. Pm the night before so. This witness tells police that morning at the scene. Oh my god. I was walking by here a few hours ago and actually saw a guy you know leaving this house. And he gives the description of this man and they bring them in to do a lineup. He doesn't pick anybody out stay. Have inferred bring back for another lineup. He doesn't pick anybody out. David we know was in one of these lineups. He doesn't pick david out. You know why would he again. David had an alibi it with david. Seen leaving the house or anything like that. According to him. This man's name is george hale. He's been interviewed many many many times according to him He did pick somebody out in the lineup. And this is really interesting because this lineup one of the many brady violations it should have been given as discovery at it never was. This lineup is gone. So we have no way of telling if george hale is telling the truth but he says he pointed to a man and said that's the man that looks like the man. I saw leaving the house this man that he picked out. He says they told him no. That can't be the guy that's cop. They put like a cops picture in as part of the lineup. Just as a blink photo But he says he picked out a guy who was one of the lead tops. In the case as i was leaving the house so they kept george hail from the defense this witness. That could have been key saying look. I saw somebody leaving the house of david and actually pointed to a completely different person. Who whole other can of worms. We have found out that von was having relationships with people in the police department. So the fact that george didn't know this an picked out a photo of an officer allegedly is very interesting now. I want to stay on this here for a minute. Because i don't. I don't want anybody to get confused and go. Oh he picked out a guy that happens to be a cop. Oh that must be the guy that murdered right and his words were it. Looked like the guy. I saw so you know whatever that means. He didn't say this is the guy. And sometimes when you know you can't just give a photo lineup of a five different pictures of the guy that you think did it right. You have to throw several pictures of people you know that did not do it in there and so often they will use a photo of an officer as a kind of stand in for someone. One thing that i would be cured. There's there's a lot of things here that i think needs sorted out with this portion of of the case file and one i would want to know is because immediately what the police say is well. This witness is unreliable. You know because he picked out the wrong guy one. I want to know what was their picture of. Joe wilkes in this lineup. Because we know that david according to the prosecution's case and according to Everybody agrees david was not there so even to have his photo in. The lineup seems bizarro to me but then take a step further. Do they know for a fact that this guy is an unreliable witness because the officer the picture was present with somebody that just like david could not have been there that night. We don't know we don't have an answer and that's the frustrating part. Is you know all of this was disappeared. You know i have to depositions. From two of the main detectives muklewicz samson and the attorney whose deposing them says what happened to this lineup. Where should it have been. And they admit yeah. It should have been in discovery in. I don't know. I don't know why it's gone. I mean there's so many highly suspicious things like that in this case where it's like wired you not doing things by the book wire lineups disappearing wire witnesses being suppressed. You know there's just so much that that mudi's it and if they did get it right if they did get it right and joe and david did this the way they said it. I mean they got really lucky. Because there's a lot of errors and there's a reason why people don't trust these convictions. Divide lane she's found around twelve twelve thirty april first. She's her dead body is found by her mother. Tanya who is there to pick up one of the children. I believe to take them to school or take them somewhere for the day and that was pretty a pretty routine thing. It sounds like let's go back to the murder scene because we have four children as you say that. Were there no matter how you shake this thing. They were there during the murder before during and after the murder. What is the and you can ballpark the ages for me if if you need to. But what is the oldest child's age and what is the youngest child's age said the kids that were there. The youngest was trenton. He was just born. He was a baby. I mean i don't think he was even a year yet. Trittin was in the crib the way to understand this house. It's you know. I didn't really understand it until i saw it. But there is two three floors and you kind of enter in. What looks like the basement floor because the rest of the house you go upstairs and that's where the kitchen is and the dining room and the living room and where she was murdered and then one more floor up is her bedroom so the baby was sleeping in the bedroom up on the third floor. And then there was brandon and preston. Preston was six brandon was too. They were locked in their bedroom. There was a lock on the outside. They were locked in their bedroom and then there is vinnie venues four. And he's the disabled child. His fragile exits like a form of kind of severe. Explain it kind of kind of lay down syndrome. A little bit Kind of on that spectrum. So he he's the orbis now. He was four so he's so preston. Six brandon's yeah threatens the baby and then he is four and he was in his crib on the first floor. The basement room that you walk into so he was actually not locked in a room or a baby that couldn't move so he was actually free to roam the house and when he was found the next day he allegedly said that he saw jimmy. Jeremy jimmy or jeremy push mommy down so the thinking has always been that vinnie saw this person he saw what happened. The way that this breaks down is other than the statement from from that child. It doesn't sound like any of the other kids heard or saw anything that was of use to the investigation. Now i mean depending on what time she was killed. We know that april first is supposed to be a normal day. They're going to go about the normal routine of their day so much. So that you vons. Mom is coming to pick up one of the children and it's not till noon. Twelve thirty her lifeless bodies discovered and again we. None of the kids saw anything during the fact during the course of the murder or even after wards as far as we know as far as we know. And that's that's what makes it even more sad is that you know. It's very likely vinnie. Saw this and it's also really sad because vinnie can't communicate what vinnie saw. he can't communicate it and in any interview. He has done since which was really back then. Only with police and i think like a child psychiatrist. It's nothing nothing value has come from on and he's not really able to be interviewed by me or anybody he. I asked his brother preston the six year old. He was six. At the time. I spoke to preston. He's in the podcast and you know he says there's no there's no point in asking vinny because he doesn't his brain doesn't really function like that. He's not he's not able to communicate So that's the tragedy too. Is that not only. did this. Child probably see his mother murdered but the one child who did can't communicate what he saw. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We want to hear from you go to our blog at true crime garage dot com and please follow us on facebook twitter instagram at true crime garage. Colonel join us back here in the garage tomorrow until then be good. Be kind and don't let it.

david thorne joe wilkes david joe David brandon Homestore Joseph wilkes David thorne yvonne eric amazon ohio david thornton chris campbell ashley Ashley homestore ashley home store wiley roots brewing ms pamela
20: The End

Murder In Alliance

49:01 min | Last week

20: The End

"Y'all, I want to tell you about one of my favorite podcasts. It has been for a while. It's called the fall line. It is a deep dive true crime podcast, focused on missing people, unsolved homicides, and unidentified persons whose cases have gotten little if any media attention. Recent episodes include a four part limited series on the victims of serial killer Samuel Little and a two part special covering the unsolved murder of 12 year old Georgia Moses, a mysterious disappearance in Oklahoma and a look at the murder clusters throughout our nation. The fall line interviews experts like the founders of the murder accountability project and the dough network. Through narrative storytelling, primary and archival research and expert and family interviews, the fall line introduces listeners to victims and survivors they've never heard of and explores the reasons why their cases were ignored in the first place. Check it out. I love this podcast. Look for new releases from the fall line on Wednesdays wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey y'all before we get to the finale, I want to make some quick announcements. I have two of them. First, thank you for listening and caring about Yvonne David and Joe's story. And so I want to ask if you knew that reading and reviewing the podcast directly translates to support. As you already know, it helps the reach, but it also lets sponsors, which is how we all make a living, know that people listen and care, and thus we can renew other seasons. So if you like murder and alliance, it takes just a second to click some stars and give it a rating. Second, we have a live Q&A Thursday, October 21st, where you can ask John Danny and I all of your burning questions, you've wanted to this season. Details are on all of the murder and alliance social media pages as well as my own. And if you want to join the discussion on Facebook, it's gotten pretty crazy. Join the unjust and unsolved podcast Facebook group. Previously on murder and alliance. You know, I think there's a lot of questions that have never been asked of him. Who was he really? And I'm not, I don't want him to try to bullshit us. You know, when you leave an interview and you feel like you've shared more information than the person who's fighting for their life, there's a reason behind that. And I said a point blank, did that happen? No. And then he changed the subject pretty quickly, man, then it started turning up. That's fine. You know, we know memories aren't tape recorders. Just tell us what you do remember, and he left out. He was not going to bring up the fact that he was with Joe at the Enix. Yeah. Hello, is this mister tool, Charlie tool? I don't know who's this. This is murder and alliance. An active investigation into who killed Ivan lane. I'm Maggie freeling. Hi, thank you. Hi, how are you? After we got home from our trip, meeting with David Thorne. I called to the only other independent investigator who still alive who has put as much time and effort into this as we had. Duane Pullman. If you remember, I spoke to Duane at the beginning of the season. He did a special on David, which renewed attention to David's case and brought to light the statement of George Hale. The man who told police he'd seen someone leaving Ivan's apartment, hours after her murder, but before her body was found. Dwayne warned me, this case would consume me, and it did. I'm good. How are you? Oh, I wish I could be better. This case has destroyed me. I told you. I want you. While you did. I did have told you so on this very mature. I wanted to run by Duane everything we found out and see if he could help process it all. Or at least let us know if we were totally off base. So, you know, we've been doing this for about a year now and have come to some really interesting findings that I just wanted to let you know about and just see you had any insight on anything. So it's been the pain of my existence trust me. Yeah, well, I have had a full emotional meltdown over it. So I guess, you know, we talked to everybody we could. I started telling Duane about everyone we spoke to. Plenty of whom didn't make it into the podcast. Remember, we put up three billboards and an anonymous tip line, and we tracked down every lead that came from that. I told him about Chris Campbell. We were always told he was a snitch and an informant. But we didn't find that. We talked about rose. Rose said to rose sent a text that said, I'm not talking to you, but I stand by what I said. The guys even spoke to the enox, who said they stood by everything they said at trial, and in fact, told the guys they're scared of Joe getting out because they're convinced he's a murderer. These are the people who took Joe in and cared for him. I told Duane how we realized once we were on the ground that it's nearly impossible to imagine that the alliance police, a tiny police force where the lead investigator Lloyd Samson had only worked one homicide case ever with a police file of ineptitudes that they could have somehow masterminded a multi town coverup and convinced all these people who didn't know each other to lie. Sure, maybe people in alliance were afraid of the alliance police department. We've heard stories about that. But all these other towns and people who didn't even know each other to all be coerced to lie against two kids for what? And then I brought up Sam peg, who was really the turning point for the guys. She sticks by it too, and she's like, I don't think Joe did it. I love him. I don't think he did this, but he did tell me this. He still said that Joe told her before the murder, David wanted him to kill Yvonne. And after the murder, the Joe said he did it. You're too contemporaneous. And continuing. That's interesting. That's pretty important. I mean, and after that, we were like, all right, it seems pretty clear Joe was involved. Whether he blacked out and didn't remember his involvement and has made up stories. It's irrelevant. Right. It's just like it's very unlikely that Joe was not involved at this point. So if we believe Joe was involved, then we have to look at, did he do it on his own or did someone else? In the enox testimony, they say when Joe came to live with them on March 27th, he had 50 cents to his name. Karen Enoch testified to buying Joe cigarettes because he couldn't afford anything. The night of the murder March 31st when Joe got dropped at the mall, he told the Enoch, he was going to clean out David's grandpa's garage. David told me that never happened. There was no garage clean out. Plus, we know that David was at shoot fighting, and mostly accounted for that night. And none of it involved or left time for garage cleaning. But in the days after the murder, the Enoch testify that Joe was waiting around for David to give him money for a garage cleaning, which, according to David, never happened. But all three Enoch say in the days after the murder has David come by with my money, has David come by with my money. The enox in their statements say he had 50 cents before the murder. He had no money, they were buying him cigarettes, so somehow he comes up with this money, which points to someone paid him for something. Sure. And I remember that was absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, that all makes sense. A few days later on April 5th, the Enoch said that David stopped by their house. He and Joe talked in the car. After that conversation, Joe was ready to go shopping. He asked summer Enoch to take him, and the next day they went. And he bought a pair of rollerblades and a pair of work boots because he was going to start working with my kisser body. We went to school. And that's where he bought socks, and he bought a pair of Nike shoes. And I wanted to tell you about there. And he wanted to hurry up and change into his new tennis shoes. And he took his old head and she's off. The Nike pair that he had on, and you put them in the box and he changed and put a new parasite on, and he said he wanted to hurry up and run him. She's away. And I said, why don't you spend money when we get home? He said, no, I want to get rid of him now. That night, how much do you think he spent? I want to say about a 180. Is it a coincidence that this kid who didn't even have enough money to buy cigarettes was talking for days about David coming by to pay him for something David said, never happened. And after he seized David, he suddenly has around $200 to go shopping. I don't know. I could not say yes, David Thorne did this. I don't think, you know, I would never want to ruin a man's chance at freedom if he didn't do this. I think there's enough if there. But what is the percentage? I mean, he keeps getting as they say, it gets worser and worser. And it's true. David's own conversation with the guys made things worse. When he was given a chance to speak for himself without having timelines in front of him or having to explain things for him, he couldn't do it. He fully removed Joe from that day, and again, we know he was at the Enoch with Joe. That is the testified to. He knows that. He has sat there. He knows that a part of the day. He's built a counter narrative it sounds. He has built a counter narrative and every part of his day removes Joe, and so they finally circle back after letting him talk and whatever and go, but David, we know you're with Joe at 5 o'clock at the enox. Oh, yeah, you know what? I guess I did run into him. I was buying a soda. It's valuable information. A lot of this is freaking good on you, man. Here's what we're paying attention to and this is why the PIs are going to really crucial here is you look for continuity and you look for clarity. And you look for a lack of obvious station, stuff like that. All the stuff that, you know, we do intuitively. He's failing every measure, isn't he? I told Dwayne how David's explanation of when he knew yovon was selling sex, kept shifting. To me, he just said all around, he didn't know, and it seemed like some time around trial or after she died, he found out. But David told the guys that he knew when he was taking her to those conventions, what she was actually doing. I also told Dwayne how even when David did acknowledge that he saw Joe the day of the murder, the story was different than what it had been in the past. I also told him about Angie's allegations and the incidents of violence, David did not voluntarily tell the guys about. It's excellent work that you did. It's just it's just really shook me, you know? The truth is what truth is, isn't it? I mean, that's the whole job here. If Chris Campbell stands by the story, if Sam stands by the story, do you have contemporaneous and continuing verification? And then we have a hidden domestic violence situation, which was violent. Holy shit. So this sounds I know what it's starting to sound like. When you're traveling to a destination where you don't know the language, it can be challenging to accomplish even the simplest of tasks. Last time I was in Mexico, I had a really hard time just asking for a receipt. But thankfully, there's Babel, the number one selling language learning app through babbles, bite size lessons, just 15 minutes, you'll learn new language skills that you can actually use in the real world. From greetings, menus and directions to gaining a deeper understanding of the culture, Babel is a travel essential. And I have been using babble for the past few months to get ready for my second trip to Mexico. This time I'm going to know Spanish. Other language learning apps use AI for their lesson plans. But Babel lessons were created by over 100 language experts, and I can say I've taken private Spanish lessons and babbles app is equally as good as my private teacher. I've used almost every language learning app out there and babble is by far the best one. Right now, when you purchase a three month babble subscription, you'll get an additional three months for free. That's 6 months for the price of three. Just go to babble dot com and use promo code Maggie. That's BAB, EL dot com code Maggie. Babel, language for life. Maggie, let me be clear on it. You know, I've always tied my belief in this. That at some point some way the truth will reveal itself. And I've tried and tried tried, and I'm pretty good at what I do and couldn't do this. So this is haunted me. I told you that. You know, I'm thankful that you're doing what you're doing, especially on the level. God, I mean, my loyalty is the truth. It's not the individuals. At the time given all the input and given all of the points of reference, I concentrated on an effed up murder scene and an effed up trial. That was the right call. And I agree with Dwayne here. That's why we were all drawn to this case in the first place. This was a sloppy investigation conducted at a botched crime scene by inexperienced and frankly problematic officers followed by a trial that left room for a lot of reasonable doubt. But, you know, we were inconclusive on whether he did it. There was enough doubt about it, obviously. But the point is, you know, we took some runs at it, never big questions. For example, we still don't know who George Hill saw leaving Yvonne's house the morning after the murder, which was what Duane's special mostly focused on. The Brady violation of withholding George Hale's testimony from David's defense team. We feel comfortable that that person was likely not the killer. As we've said before, her house was highly trafficked enough that that person could have been totally separate from the murderer. It could have been a friend who was supposed to stop by in the morning for coffee and stumbled on her dead body and fled. Or maybe it was an officer with a scheduled sex appointment who preemptively cleaned up any evidence of having relations with her. Not to cover up her murder necessarily, but maybe just to save his job. We raised the questions. They're getting answered, at least in part, thanks to your work. I mean, do I feel icky about it? I feel like you about all parts of this. Yeah. And I always have from the minute I started. Yeah. Maybe I think you know this, I'm not lecturing I'm just supporting. The truth is the truth. Whether we are comfortable with it or not, that's what it is. You know, I'm very disappointed to hear he was admitting after the fact a lot of stuff. And if things don't add up, they don't add up. And sorry, that's one of those indications. I mean, he on all appearances seems to be a nice kind of all American boy doesn't he, Alan man, you know, older man. But, you know, it's not about appearances, and it's not about charm. It's not the truth. But, you know, as I absorb it, all I really care about is the closure of it all. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I can't imagine you told zoo yet and what was her reaction? At this point, the answer was yes. Sue had been told. But not by me. After everything we found or hadn't found the guys from proclaimed justice, decided they could not take David's case. Remember, all of this was preliminary work to see if there was enough there to invest more time and money into the case. And after a year of research, which is more than they ever do, hundreds of hours invested, 5 trips to Ohio, two separate prison interviews, tip lines, billboards, we found absolutely nothing that could help prove David or Joe's innocence. And what we did find was more damaging than helpful. The guys wrote David and Joe explaining their position and had a long phone call with Sue, explaining everything. And told her any time she wanted to call or ask questions, they'd be there. I told her the same thing, and I was for a while. We went back and forth discussing the case and what we all found, I told her what was coming up in the season, we stayed in touch actually up until this episode when she stopped speaking to me. But no one expects Sue who invested her life 22 years went nearly bankrupt trying to help her husband to accept this. It's clear she's frustrated with the outcome saying we didn't do enough. Didn't follow the new cop leads we found, but truthfully, again, the guys didn't see a reason to start going down that road and spend more time when nothing pointed us away from Joe. Still, I can't blame Sue. This isn't just another investigation for her. It's her life. It's her husband. And all I can say is that I get it. I'm not taking it personally. And if she ever reaches a point where she wants to talk it over again, I'll be here. And so will Danny and so will John. And to be clear, proclaim justice isn't labeling David and Joe as murderers. Any case adopted by an innocence project has to have evidence, something new, something missed to help clear the person convicted. That's what we were looking for. David's used up all of his appeals. He needed new evidence, and we just can not find that in this case. So while the guys packed it up and moved on to the cases they have with investigatory evidence to help exonerate their clients, I hadn't yet. 8. You can hear me? Yeah. Okay, awesome. I decided I needed to give David one last chance to explain what happened to me. Why was the story he told me different than what he told the guys? Was he lying? Why did he omit Joe from his timeline of the day of the murder? Maybe he had a good explanation. I didn't have an organization and time and money to keep in mind. I me on my own doing this because I believed in David. And I still wanted to. So I started by asking David, what happened with the guys? Why did they leave there feeling the way they did? So, you know, you could tell me your side of it. I want to hear your side of everything. Because my only problem was whenever they start to ask me a question, I start to answer that as I'm in mid answer, then something I say or a secondary question comes up. And then like the flow of the conversation was kind of convoluted, I guess, because then I'm just chasing my house trying to answer a new question as it comes up. David told me the guys were confusing him, asking one question on top of another. But I've heard the guys do dozens of interviews. You've heard it too. That's not their style. They're slow, methodical, they even play dumb as Dany likes to say, Colombo, the person. Badgering is just not their style. And on top of that, David had his attorney of record present. I mentioned this before. If the guys had been steamrolling him, she would have stopped it. That's why she was there. And I told David, he needed to find a better explanation for why he couldn't answer questions than this, because truthfully, it was bogus. And I'll be honest. I blended two different events. But in, I guess for lack of a better way of thinking in my defense, the time that there's a questioning me of is before anything ever happened. So to me, that's just another normal day of my life. I don't know how else to explain it. There was nothing exciting going on, nothing to be truly remembered. That's just plucking something out from months prior and trying to put trying to put it together. But remember, it wasn't months later. We know that on April 2nd, the day after Yvonne's body was found, David was in the precinct with his attorney being questioned. Here's one of our first conversations. By the time they started talking to me, I'm going into try to help them figure this out and all of a sudden they're telling me, you know, help us help you. And I don't need the help. You know what I mean? I'm here to help you. And then whenever I saw that they were actually looking at me, then that's whenever I actually grandfather contacted an attorney. David knew immediately that he was a suspect. This wasn't months afterward like he said, which I could completely get. Imagine someone asked you today what you were doing on some nondescript day two or three months ago. Of course you'd struggle. But the first time David had to remember his day was the day after Yvonne's body was found. Granted, he didn't answer questions at the time, his lawyer shut down the interview, but he well knew. He needed to get that information ready. He was a suspect in a murder case who at some point might have to argue his innocence. I mean, their big hang up wasn't even the blending. It was that you were not going to say you were with Joe that day at the enox. And they said they asked you multiple multiple times. What your day was like. Because is what they kept asking me is saying that I was there beforehand. And I said, I was never there beforehand. Because that was the first time that I was ever there because that's the first time that I ever met care. David went on to talk about something completely different, so I circled back. That's not the issue though. Their issue was, they said, lay out your timeline of that day, that day, you know you were in the Enoch driveway at 5 o'clock with the lion and they said they asked you multiple times and they finally said, what you were with Joe that day. And they did not like that you were not going to tell them you were with Joe that day. She I don't get that. Whatever they asked me, what I was doing by the time I left, I told them I said, I don't know exactly what time that I was there. Other than that, I never said I wasn't there. But you David, that's what they're saying you didn't tell them that you kept omitting that information. I mean, why else was I there, not? That's a given. It looks like you're trying to actively not put yourself with the person who likely did this. They said they asked you multiple times, what else happened? What else happened? What did you do after the subway sandwich? What'd you do after this? And you never once said, I was out there with the line. By the time I go to subway and everything, that was already meet gone from there. He started circling again. So I went back. No, it wasn't even too. They said, they said you didn't see Joe. And then you said, oh yeah, I saw Joe. Speakers on that one. They were asking me about the money from the summer. And I said, I didn't give any money to him whenever I saw him. And I said, so you saw him. And I said, yeah, but I don't think at the time that they're saying because that part I don't recall. The specific day, I said, but and then he asked me going back to the thing. So it wasn't that I was denying being there because that's the only reason I was there, because I have a reason to be the enox other than Joe because I don't know that people from Adam. Right. Which, yeah, exactly. I mean, that was just their hangup that you weren't going to tell them that you were there even though they knew you were there. I didn't deny it. That's just it. I didn't, I still don't understand how but that's how they felt the whole conversation was as you weren't giving information. They had to pull information out of you, is how they felt. Yeah, but I don't know what it is that you want me to say to you unless you ask me the question. The timeline of your day. They said, what is the timeline of your day? You know you're at the eNOS. Why didn't you put that in your timeline? It was in my timeline. Faith that you did not tell them you were with Joe when you were laying out the timeline. And finally, after all of the circling. I don't know that I have to tell them that I'm standing there with him because that's the only reason that I'm there. But you do, David, you have to tell them everything. They ask you to tell them everything and that's their problem is you didn't tell them anything. They said they left that conversation feeling like they told you more than you told them. I mean, I don't know. I'm sorry that they feel that way, but I was just trying to answer the questions as they came. And that was that. David said he didn't tell them he was in the enox driver with Joe just hours before Yvonne was killed as part of the timeline. They asked him to lay out. Because he didn't know he had to. Doesn't it seem like the world's against us from getting a good night's sleep this time of year? Even in New York where it's starting to turn to fall, sometimes we have 80° days. It's crazy. And I can not sleep when I'm hot. But when you have a purple mattress, you can sleep cool and comfortable no matter what the world throws at you. And that's because only purple mattresses have the grid. I have been obsessed with this grid technology since I saw it. It is unlike memory foam, which remembers everything. The grid bounces back as you move and shift. So you never get that I'm stuck feeling you do with memory foam. It literally conforms to your body so much better. I am obsessed with my purple mattress and my purple pillow. I finally have the most comfortable sleep set up I've ever had. And I sleep great. Try your purple mattress risk free with free shipping and returns. Financing is available too. Purple is comfort reinvented. If you have a bad back like me absolutely check it out. Right now you'll get 10% off any order of $200 or more. Go to purple dot com slash MIA and use promo code MIA. That's purple dot com slash MIA promo code MIA for 10% off any order of $200 or more. Purple dot com slash MIA promo code MIA terms apply. Did you know that cats are carnivores and need lots of meat? I actually learned that from my vet that leading cat food brands are often filled with fillers, grains, and very little protein. They told me that my cats need to eat a lot of protein and often you can not find that in grocery store foods. So that's why I switched to cat person, cat food. It's everything my cat needs to stay happy and healthy. High quality, high protein meals, delivered right to my door. And I've arranged for cat person to provide an exclusive offer of nearly 50% of just for my listeners. Cat person has 50% more protein than industry standards, and only uses wholesome ingredients. Meal plans are fully customized for your cat and perfect for cats of all ages. There are 16 easy to serve wet foods and three different dry foods. My cats are obsessed with the mackerel and bream wet food. I gave it to them and when I ran out, I had to give them their regular old food and they would not eat it. They are obsessed with cat person. And cat person offers a 30 day money back guarantee on your custom plan if your cat doesn't love cat person like mine, no questions asked. You and your cat are going to love cat person as much as we do. Go to cat person dot com slash MIA and use code MIA to save nearly 50% on your starter box with free shipping. That's cat person dot com slash MIA code MIA to get nearly 50% off your starter box with free shipping. Cat person dot com slash MIA code MIA. Do you want to tell your side of the Angie story? David denied all of the allegations Angie made, and even gave an explanation for why, according to him, she made it all up. He said she had started dating Daniel. Now her husband, after David and she broke up. Daniel is the one we spoke to on the phone who confirmed Angie's allegations. I don't know if he found out or when he found out that they were already engaged and she paid for a hotel on route 5 for us to go to whenever they were dating. David said the reason Angie lied about all of this is because Daniel told her to because he was pissed, she cheated on him with David years earlier. Is that possible? Sure. Could Daniel have intercepted our message to Angie and she had no idea we called? Sure. Maybe she would have said, yeah, I made it up. Who knows? But according to David, this is why she made up multiple incidents of abuse and David robbing houses. And to be clear, Angie did not testify at trial. But that's not because she wasn't credible. We don't know that one way or another. What was thought about her credibility? But her testimony would likely have been prejudicial to David and no reasonable judge would have allowed it in. Regardless of her credibility. And to be clear, we are not saying Angie made this up that only comes from David. But David did admit to something. He admitted to shooting out the car tire when Angie was in the car like she claimed. While Angie said it was four tires, David said, actually it was just one. But let me repeat. He admitted to shooting at a car that a woman, his girlfriend was sitting in. And this was his justification. But she was leaving in my car. And I mean, after all, it was my car. And then I asked David why his story changed about the sex work. I guess one of my questions is, you specifically told me, and I will send you the tape that you had no idea why she was going to conventions. And then you told the guys you told the guys that you knew why she was going and you just had to put it out of your mind. That was afterwards. Her and I went together twice. When I was taking her for the conventions and everything I had no idea when her and I got back together after Brandon is when she came clean. Okay. They said it was very clear that you said no, I told them why you were dropping. Because because they asked me what it was like for me being with her on the second time around, I had to put that out of my mind. Because that was part of whether her and I were really going to get together and be together the second time around. That's where we aired out all of our dirty laundry with each other. But then whenever they asked me, if I knew, yeah, I knew. Whenever we were together the first time, but I knew the second time. So if this is confusing for you, it's also confusing for me. I have never been able to get a straight answer when he knew about the conventions, and why he told the guys he knew exactly why he was dropping her off and why he told me, he had no idea. Remember this is what Duane just said. You look for continuity and you look for clarity and you look for a lack of obfuscation and stuff like that. All the stuff that, you know, we do intuitively. He's failing every measure, isn't he? But, okay, for fairness, let's just say David was confused. Benefit of the doubt. He still knew before yovan was murdered, and before trial, about all of this. And this is a problem. David had written a letter to me at the end of August, saying, quote, had I known Yvonne was, quote, working conventions, then yes. I would have tried to get custody. I'd have led with that. No questions asked. Who would subject their child to a revolving door of unknown people and access? But David did know. He admitted here that he knew. He knew about the sex work before the trial and before she was dead. So it's plausible to think that he did want custody. In fact, at least four people, including David's grandfather, said he wanted custody. Yet David told me from the beginning, he didn't. They had a great relationship. But now, if I'm thinking that maybe the police got this right, maybe it wasn't about money or paying you on child support. Maybe it was about David not wanting his son to be in that kind of environment. David's grandfather even said David wanted custody in his police interview April 7th. But he added that David couldn't prove Yvonne and unfit mother because the kids were always clean and the house was clean. So was David just desperate enough to get custody of Brandon that he had Yvonne killed, and we also found out that not only did David know about Yvonne's sex work, but he completely left out that he was part of that world too. When I asked David in the past about Yvonne's stripper Friends, seeing if maybe I could talk to one of them, if maybe they would know who would want to hurt her. He said he never knew their names, which may be true. But now, we found out from one of David's Friends, that David was actually in this world himself. He had a phone number, 9 four 7 show, where he would make calendars of strippers, and he would also connect them to bachelor parties and the like. This information was never volunteered, and was accidentally given to us. Now does this make him a murderer? No. But the more we dig, the more we find out that David seemed to have minimized or omitted some pretty key details that he had been with Joe the Devon died, and that he'd been accused of violence towards women in the past, that he knew about Yvonne sex work and that he was at least peripherally part of that world. Which makes me wonder. Maybe he does know who her sex worker Friends were and just doesn't want us to talk to them. And at first, all of this may seem innocuous, but when you start piecing it together, it's just not. Everyone's stories fit together. The police were not sophisticated enough to mastermind a cover up. John Danny and I discussed this. They could have gotten this right and still been a fucked up police department. So a broken clock is right twice a day. If it turns out the police were right, it seems like it was thanks to luck, not great police work. In fact, we know the police were getting desperate from going to the psychic, to the alleged framing of Greg Cox, to going to three of David's Friends, allegedly trying to pin it on them. But eventually, the case fell right in their lap, starting with froze more. If her building manager hadn't called the police to say rose knew something, the police may never have known about Joe. After that, the pieces all fell into place. Rosenquist told the police about Joe, telling them he was in town to murder a girl. Joe told the police about David and Sam, Sam told the police that Joe was telling her months ahead of time about this, the Enoch who Joe was living with, said Joe had no money until he saw David, days later, after cleaning a garage that never happened, and the tools blew David's alibi out of the water, even saying David asked in advance to leave the exact time Joe was picked up from the mall. It's all right there. But yet all of us have been drawn to this case because the arrests came from a notoriously corrupt department with detectives that had less than seller reputations, a botched crime scene, Brady violations, and multiple people who could have done this who were never looked into. All corroborated by police records. The entire investigation and trial left what I would certainly consider reasonable doubt. There was no conclusive physical evidence leaking Joe to the scene. Had the jurors heard from George Hale, perhaps the verdict would have been different, but they didn't. If David's team had called an expert to refute states evidence, maybe we wouldn't be here. But none of that happened. And if there's one thing I can say for sure about this case, it's that David Thorne did not get a fair trial. And yet we still have lingering questions, we may never get answers to. The crime scene certainly does not match what Joe said happened. And neither does the murder weapon. Why has Joe's story changed so many times? However, there could be very easy explanations. There's a condition in the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders called disassociative amnesia. A form of memory loss caused when a person witnesses a traumatic event. In some cases the memory may be restored days later or not at all. It's possible when Joe told Sam he did it. He knew something happened. But he didn't really know what or how. It's possible when the police took him in. They told him how it happened. The whole sitting on the couch bit. And that was the story Joe agreed to because he just didn't remember. And it's possible today he is so confused by how many people have questioned him interrogated him, asked him about different stories, told him different stories. He doesn't know what is even true anymore. But I do know that Joe believes he is the kind caring person we heard so much about who was severely abused by his family and foster parents and just wanted someone to love him. And David was that someone. And it bothers us that this whole time, if David did do this, that Joe's been painted as the bad guy and David as an angel. I think Joe did go there with the folding knife. The only folding knife of that kind bought that year on March 31st at the exact time Joe said he bought it. But after Chris Campbell said he made fun of him and said, who are you going to kill with that Joe? Joe ditched it and used the kitchen knife. That at least seems to be a reasonable explanation for some of the lingering questions. But the other questions may never be answered. And really, I'm not sure how much those would matter. We have no new evidence pointing to innocence. And once someone is convicted by a jury, that's what you need for a new trial. Do I think the jury should have convicted him? Maybe not. Again, I don't think the trial was fair. But we're past that stage. At this point to move forward, we need to have found something exonerating. Even something as simple as any one of these witnesses, telling us they lied or changing their story for us to continue, and it simply did not happen. At the end of all of this, there was a woman, a mother, a friend, a daughter who was brutally murdered, and her family has had to relive that for 22 years. We went into this wanting to get justice for yovan lane and her family, all of them deserve to know the truth. And if that truth was the wrong men were convicted, we wanted to find that. We believed in David and Joe's in a sense. And that's why we did this. But now we believe the family also deserves to have their mother and daughter rest in peace. Discussions about whether yovan was or was not a sex worker or a dancer or use drugs or important to the case in that type of activity opens the door for so many potential suspects. But beyond that, it really doesn't matter. Her life was worth more than a pair of Nike shoes and some roller blades regardless of how many people she might have slept with or what drugs she was doing. It has to hurt the people who love Yvonne to hear her talked about in that way. So our part in this is over. The billboards will come down, the tip line will close. We just don't have enough to keep moving forward. A conservative estimate is that there are more than 20,000 innocent people in prison. And I have to move on working for them. You can make up your own mind with the evidence we found or did not find as to whether David and Joe are part of that statistic. But regardless, I do believe David Thorne and Joe Wilkes deserved to have their case looked into with integrity and depth. John and Danny and I did that. I can sleep at night knowing that someone circled back to try and find the truth in this case, and we got as far as we could. And that's not to say our investigation is or should be the final word either. There's still work that can be done. There's a fingerprint that 22 years later should be run through codis to see if there's a match. There is DNA that has never been tested. Perhaps someone out there has the time and money to pick up where we left off. If that happens, I would encourage David to be a bit more forthcoming with anyone else who comes along. But I want to end this focusing on Yvonne, who didn't deserve what happened to her, no matter what choices she'd made in her life. And her kids who were children at the time did nothing to deserve having their mother stolen from them. I hope at the least that Yvonne's 5 boys can conclude what they want and remember her how they want to. Tony Vinnie, Brandon, Trenton, and Preston, deserve that. If you could correct everything that's been said about her, what do you want people to know? I think that's the thing where I differ from a lot of people. Honestly, I don't really over the damn what they think about her. I know how I felt about her. Why do I care what everyone else thinks? Whether she slept with people tend to sleep with people whether she did drugs Andrew drugs, why do I care what anyone thinks for me? Well, what do you think about her? I love it. She was crazy. But I wonder. Y'all, if you like this show, please consider joining the unjust and unsolved Patreon. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus, you get some awesome bonus episodes, q-and-as, and events as a thank you and please please rate and review the more reviews, the more attention and the more likely we're going to get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by me, Maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources, go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murder and alliance on Twitter and Instagram at murder, underscore alliance and join the discussion on Facebook at unjust and unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder an alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com.

David Joe Yvonne Duane Enoch David Thorne George Hale Dwayne Angie John Danny Chris Campbell Samuel Little Georgia Moses Yvonne David Maggie freeling Sue Ivan lane Duane Pullman
17: The Visit

Murder In Alliance

41:36 min | Last month

17: The Visit

"Yeah y'all one of my all time. Favorite podcasts on the planet is true. Crime bullshit with josh hallmark and it is back on october seventh and continues the investigation into the crimes of enigmatic serial killer israel keyes since the podcast launched in two thousand eighteen. Josh hallmark has broken down much of the keys. Mythology identified multiple likely victims and worked with criminal profiler 's retired fbi agents forensic experts and local law enforcement agencies across the country to link or rule keys out in dozens of unsolved missing persons cases as retired. Fbi agent. bobby. Tacoma put it if anyone is going to find answers in the case of israel keyes. It's host josh hallmark previously on murder. Alliance then it sounded like a woman's voice. I really don't want to say anything that. Because i'm tired of injected in the middle of it. Not the middle have been for either here so you remember seeing him my access the now but my boyfriend at the time we saw in there that night if joe's getting her permission so to speak to talk with us you think joe's not worried about what she's going to tell us truly honestly believe he didn't do it. I know david wanted him to. And i was under the impression that you've been paid to do. This is murder and alliance an active investigation into who killed a lane. I'm maggie freely once. We finally got permission from joe wilkes to speak with sam. Pegg joe's best friend from high school. The floodgates opened. Sam told us that she loves joe and doesn't believe he killed yvonne lane march thirty first nineteen ninety nine but regardless she also said he told her months after the murder that he did it and he told her that before. The murder even happened. That david thorne yvonne's boyfriend wanted joe to get rid of her. I know david wanted him to okay. And i was under the impression that they've was gonna pay him to. Did he tell you that david wanted him to do that. He did he tell you that multiple times. Okay okay before. It happened or like months before we had never heard this before. This was never in any of her statements to the police or grand jury and we consider she was making it up but for what purpose sam even said but i guess you gotta get david out too. So why would she implicate david. If she thinks helping joe requires david getting out. Well if she was telling us the truth for she knew and sam did tell us that she wasn't going to bring up any more information to the police or on the stand than what they told her. Joe had said and joe did not say this so if none of this was known to the police. She wasn't about to tell them. How confident are you. The joe had made mention his friend. David wanted his wife killed before it happened. Actually david had some party so they joe have been telling you for some time that david wanted him to do this. Okay and did you think that at any point in time he was actually considering doing it now. Okay or do you believe that. David masterminded it. No i do. That's my gut feeling He wanted it. And i think he would just find i. I would say as you would always looked up to date whenever day. Moving paul week. I remember driving over david's Time especially when david Divorced now started out there. Like it's interesting. Sam mentioned these details. Of course we know that. You von and david were not married and all kids were not david's but sam didn't sam didn't care one way or another. None of this meant anything to her and to us. This just shows how little sam was actually involved or has paid attention to the case. She even told she has other shake going on and doesn't read the news or watch. Tv so the fact that she remembers these details although not accurate does tell us. She's telling the truth about what she remembers. You know david. And he's just telling you buddy miles. And i look up to once killed his wife and let them assiduously would never do anything. He would never live but did he. We were baffled. Of course we considered the possibility. David was involved but we had never come across any evidence other than what was presented at trial until now and this was new something even the police did not know. So what was going on. We had one more person to talk to you before. We confronted joe a few years back. A woman reached out to sue on facebook. She wrote her a message saying that she had information about the night of the murder. That could help. She had seen something about david. And joe either on social media or tv and it sparked her memory so we tracked her down to hear from her ourselves. We're now but my boyfriend has time we saw in there that night. We know at night time. This is jill. I'll leave her last name. Out for privacy sake. Jill told sue the night of the murder. She was at the mall with her husband. And they bumped into joe. Outside of the comfort in jill new joe from school. They were actually good friends. We just saw him and he's like yeah. I'm saying at this hotel room the night you know and so you'll bumped into him at the mall. Okay staying the night. There and his friend was picking the morning. Does he say what he was doing their pay mark. Good though gel. That's it. that's it birthday. Party swing party or something. He asks one in command. There was pizza. I'm like no. We're good like he was like. Hey you know. My friends kid is having a power birthday party. Do you guys want to bring you know on the island because we had a baby nine. Yeah the right there as he was starting to was a party like no like no good so he said it was a friend of his kid. Okay i think it's interesting. We were looking for a high school. Kager party we never put it together that it could have been a friend's child or they party now one of joe's previous statements about what he was doing at the mall that night. He said he was actually attending a party. That was the purpose of him being there. And now we have jill telling us the same thing. In fact joe even tried to call jill from prison to get her to be an alibi for him. And i mean i never but give me thinking like you know maybe and tell somebody some at the mall but then it's like it's not really that big of a deal so i saw somebody mall one nightmare right so i'm sure it's just a coincidence and whatever but the so what is now we have corroboration that one of the stories joe told us about being the mall for party might be true and now we're more confused than ever. If joe was at the mall for a party. Was he going to leave. Poff a hit and come back. I would think not but then. How do you explain rose and chris who are backed up by sam. I don't know it was so confusing and so it was finally time to talk to joe wilkes. Y'all i am so excited to tell you once again that pretty litter is a sponsor of murder in alliance. And i'm excited about that because everything i do for. My cats is rooted in love. Like letting my cat sleep on my head every single night waking up choking and hairballs but that's love and that's why i use pretty litter pretty litter house hands down. Been my favorite cat litter. I have ever had in my life. I've tried every kind of litter expensive cheap bodega litter. This is the best one. It's lightweight dust free and it's ultra absorbing crystals trap odor instantly and up to a month. I have three cats. So when i say this is true i promise you it works on three cats and the best part about pretty litter. Is that the litter changes colors to help. Detect early signs of potential illness including urinary tract infections and kidney issues and this is so important because cats can't tell you when there's something wrong with them so this is a good indicator to get to the vet before it becomes a more serious issue. My cats and i are obsessed with pretty litter. And i know you will be to loves putting your cats health. I with pretty litter. Do what i did. And make the switch today by visiting pretty litter dot com and use promo code. M i a twenty percent off your first order. That's pretty litter dot com. Promo code am i a for twenty percent off pretty litter dot com promo code m. I a a few updates on joe's life. Since his arrest and conviction joe has become a minister in fact he was always pretty spiritual the first person he ever told he did not commit the murder to was his minister victoria. She wrote in a sworn affidavit that she visited him in jail a few days after his arraignment she said joe was crying and he told her he didn't do this and similar to what he has said since he said the police told him he did it and told him how victoria said he kept crying and said he couldn't take a mother away from her children. Victoria visited him a few times after that particularly the day before trial she said joe was more upset than she had seen him. He looked quote downcast and disturbed victoria said. Joe told her that his lawyers said he had to say what they wanted him to or he would get. The death penalty. Victoria said that joe told her he was counting getting parole for telling the story the way they wanted and of course we always considered this with joe's confession the police presented him with the false narratives that david within the next room blaming joe and if he wanted to save his life he should confess and say david told him to do this. The death penalty was on the table. If you remember. David was facing the death penalty but the jurors were deadlocked on whether david should get it or not so the judge defaulted to life without parole and since the podcast launched. Joe has also become vocal about his innocence online. Well joe can't exactly be from prison. But a joseph. But joseph wilkes facebook page appeared with the banner in giant bold font innocent. I message the page and asked who was running it. The person told me family of joe. Although i know doesn't really have family so i wonder but either way i gather that this person speaks to joe daley and i was able to get a few messages back and forth. She joe through them. And based on the page joe publicly claims he's innocent and welcomes support so on the way to prison. We talked out how visit going to go as you know. I don't go into interviews for the sake of the investigation. So i was also not going into the prison with them just john and danny would go in and i mentioned before setting up. A legal visit was incredibly difficult so it actually never wound up happening for the sake of time. The guys decided to do just a regular visit which meant they could not bring anything in so everything had to be in their heads and reported back to me immediately while it was fresh. We have sort of the high points of everything that i wanna make. Sure we mentioned understanding that conversations going to go in whatever direction it goes him. There's something to talk about so you. My intention is to again sort of try to get the slate clean. Let's start doesn't matter what he said. In the past remember there have been multiple versions of joe story the original story. The david hired him then. He told a story where david was not involved but he went over to proposition her for sex and she was already dead he also said he went there to invite her to his own party. He was having at the mall and he also told the story that he was at the mall for someone else's birthday parties. You know what what was going on around. That's going around on around that day. Let him get locked into a story and then go from there. Yes given us enough bullets to tear apart. Whatever it is does yeah. yeah so we just. We almost colombo him playing confused just to let and then. Here's my thought with him. He's stupid if he sees us struggling to process information he gives us. We just shut up yet and let him trying substantiate what he's just said just physically with no facially expressed to him that we're not understanding him to see if he corrects. You know we've on have to look at us and say place down. Yeah so dumb. Earth cleo old not danny. I'm signed is that effective because people generally especially engaged him agreed. Compensation want to help understand what they're trying you know there's the receiver and the communicator. And you want the communicator. To fill like go. I didn't get that outright. You'll let him bring you more. Because the more he gives us what we can help anglo-irish bonds. Yeah so one thing that i do want to talk about at some point is his relationship with amy and see if we can get him to the point where we think one way or the other as far as could they have had conversations with each other unbeknown today. This was something we wondered after talking with chris. Could amy jo have done something without david's knowledge. A possibility is you know this lease then discussed that. Perhaps amy and joe were working together. Perhaps any set him up some saw. Do you wanna get around. Dig into their relationship a little bit. And then you know. And i really want to know about david. Allegedly saying to him you know. Why did you tell. Sam pay or why does she think you told her before. The murder david wanted on dead. I'm looking at sam's there's a few things that i wanna to ask him about regarding sam okay tell us about your interactions with sam during that time as released in this case if he leaves out the he told her that in the basement. Then you'll hit him. This is your ally that we talked to as a great conversation. Let him know that she is an ally but she did say some things. That are troubling. Did you see two people at the for in the mall. I still think it's very possible. That was made up and police told him to say you saw them. He was not in his first statement. That who else did you tell about this. Sam possible But then you know. What did you know about chris. What was he pretty much racist. Another one of those stories was that it wasn't david who picked him up the mall the next day because since he says there was no murder and david had nothing to do with this. A guy named darren roar picked him up full disclosure. We searched high and low for this guy and couldn't find anyone who knew him. We don't even know how to spell his name. Darren war terry war. And who's fucking party. Was it if he was going to appear. Jill said he was going to and the knife. There is record of a knife being purchased on march thirty first the kmart loss prevention people testified at trial that this was the only trade folding pocketknife of that kind bought from january. One thousand nine hundred ninety nine to july one thousand nine on that day but was joe's knife. What kind of coincidence is that remember. One of only three witnesses for the defense was a guy who said he saw joe buying the knife months later. Yeah what were the. What were the exact circumstances of getting to that night in the storm. You know it was well the cops let me there. Okay cops lead you there. What was the conversation leading up to getting there. you know. And he'll we'll go down this road for sure of listen. Are you covering for david. The guys discussed letting joe no that parole usually doesn't happen if he continued to proclaim his innocence. That's just way it is most parole boards. Want you to take responsibility for the crime. You're convicted of unless there is insurmountable evidence of innocence like dna or something like that that they can take into consideration. So of joe thinks he's getting out on an actual innocence claim. It's unfortunately unlikely. At least for his first shot at parole and then if he's denied the next date could be scheduled. Here's later so the guys wanted to let him know that and see if maybe that got him to finally tell the truth so yeah i mean. Listen if if david did this and and you know you didn't and you're protecting him or whatever that we need to know that and just see what he says. Is it possible that david. I'm not going to ask him this question straight up but we'll get around it. Is it possible that david set you up to be patsy because you know. We know that david's not dumb enough. Let's just go down this road run for a minute. We know that david's not dumb enough to orchestrate a real murder the way that it was done keeping him four miles away by the rec- or you know getting stuff that day being with him all those things but let's just say he wanted to set him up. Then that's a pretty easy setup. Ryan is a pretty easy way to make sure he's caught. David have pretty good alibis. And he said did nothing to do with this. Yeah i down delayed out all the scenarios they would bring up to joe and so it was finally time. It looks like a prison up there. He pulled up to the marion. Correctional institution a medium security prison with twenty five hundred prisoners assists. Earning go up. And there's guard chad thickly. God i think we have a couple of hours if we want from what i understand who and there is no texting me so i could be sitting here for four hours. We're not going to be in there for four hours. You know i mean. At some point we run around in circles Glimpse of i. I wanna go ahead and go in. He took everything out of their pockets. Left phones recorders notebooks and they left me as well in the car alone in the parking lot and i waited 'em waited. I made some instagram videos. Joe wilkes bright there. And i'm just sitting at. I'm so frustrated and excited and irvine and sure enough almost exactly four hours later. The guys emerged out here. The answer to how it's going. I'm incredibly hungry and anxious but there were other things on my mind you guys go in. You meet joe. What are your impressions of joe. Great finally go in there and speak with him at what we thought about. What did you think is he. This like bumbling idiot that it seems like he's been portrayed us absolutely not he's very he's a smart guy he's very engaging he's good communicator. Great vocabulary Very likable guy. Extremely well like he is processed very good in processing shared information very focused and it was a relaxed conversation. He's big he's told me dollars. Six two six three great shape and you think he's got his tattoos prison tattoos down both arms. He wears a rain on his left. Hand could what it was but as you revisiting you in we're revisiting. These experiences of his life there were certain moments suspecing related to people on the outside. You for your podcast. His friends that we shared messages that they wanted us to convey to. Yeah that's right and you know. I think frankly over the last couple of decades as david said at least a staunch advocate this whole time and plenty of staunch advocates. Now it's good to heal. It was good for joe to hear that they're people that he knew and loved back. Then that still are out here and remember him as a kind guy that they loved then and still today and really overwhelmed him to know that the first time he found that yeah jersey probably didn't even know that back then that there were people that love him. Yeah i think you're right. I think you're right. The guys told me. Joe got choked up hearing about all the people on the outside that still care about him. Like sam and jill. And chris even me they said he's incredibly grateful for the podcast for telling his story truthfully and not just brushing him off some idiot who framed david but digging into his life and the circumstances around his confession. What what he said. I've been in the system. My whole life since i was one year old. Either foster care or you know jail prison. I've been in the system on tower live on and we worked trying to make him no not at all. It was very natural. Yeah we were passing messages along to him that we told people we've been passed along to his face to face at that moment. He turned his body sideways because his eyes were filling up with tears and it was touching raw. Because like this guy who's still care. He has love people. He has friendships and bonds He been in nineteen years old just having turned nineteen. He's forty one forty one now for the attitude for him to have the attitude positively and hope that he has a good example for the rest of the guys really liked joe. But that's not why you're listening. You want to know what joe had to say happened. The night of march thirty first nineteen ninety nine. So something else. I don't know about me. I am going to be in mexico. This january been before i love it but i've been frustrated in the past because i don't speak spanish and that's challenging when you're in a different country to not speak the language thankfully there is babble. 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Just go to babble dot com and use promo code maggie. that's b. a. b. b. e. l. dot com code mackey babble language for life. Y'all anna louisa is a sponsor of murdering alliance and i love this because n. louis says mission is closely aligned with my personal values and louisa is a carbon neutral jewelry brand. They create fine jewelry starting with recycled materials whenever possible transparent business practices and small batches. That are kind to the earth. Before i even say more. I'll just say ana luisa dot com slash alliance to go treat yourself to get ten percent off an a. l. i. s. a. an even before the ten percent. Their jewelry is affordable starting at just thirty nine dollars and timeless. I just got the Necklace which is fourteen carat gold with a gorgeous green courts stone in the middle. This necklace is perfect for every day. Or when i want to dress up for a event new jewelry collections are released every friday seriously. Every time i go on the website they have a new rotation of jewelry. One of the earrings i just bought is already gone. So there's always something for everybody again. You can go to ana luisa dot com slash alliance for ten percent off. That's an a. l. u. i s. a. dot com slash alliance. I absolutely recommend ann. Lewis for yourself or for gifts. They're a great brand making beautiful sustainable jewelry so go check out in a louisa. Support this podcast by supporting them. Anna louisa dot com slash alliance or use code alliance at checkout for ten percent off Well first of all the things he pointed out was that when they took in custody in ravenna. They handcuffed him to a wall as they're telling him he's free to go at any time next on your go. Scott have him come to a wall. He described the road. There's this table he's sitting on. His show showed his hand up against all imitating what was done to him as they come through and telling you this killed his wallet and slapping pictures down on the table and he said he was horrified. Look at this picture. We heard this before that. When joe gave the confession he was in distress. And we do know. The police made up the statement from david. Which is legal for the record. And we've heard this before. According to joe. When he gave the confession he was in distress and handcuffed to a wall. Do you guys believe that there was coercion. From hoey's yes. I believe at best. They did some things that they should not have done to forward case. So that's at best. I think he he really painted a picture clearer than the documents. We've read the audio that we've heard because we know the efforts that were made fourteen th july nineteen ninety nine in the fifteenth july nineteen ninety nine to make sure he was miranda. He was a given the opportunity to leave at as free. Bill or request council all of this that that was well documented but if he was handcuffed chain to a wall. That's just not true. It's not you're not free to leave your going to access your turkey. And they come in and introduce the statement that they've been in written basically pointing the finger him saying dot com and he said he's so overwhelmed by the graphic nature of these photos. He's not reading. What this document portly was david giving a statement pointing the finger at him so they did they tell him what to say. He said that they gave him a statement. They they told him what happened. They told him what happened and essentially that was happening. Like you did this. And this and this. Yes david hired to do it and he said it actually started in the car when they make up there in the car with telling david thorne told us gilder. We've heard this before too. And it's consistent with what he had said before. Remember he even said on the stand trial. They told him what to say. Did he say he told sam pay. He says that he didn't tell her that. And he does not remember ever telling her that says he never asked him to kill. Yvonne gordon to joe. He did not know if he doesn't know why. Sam said that he doesn't recollect every telling san that david mt kill on the straight nice whose life is that. How is it there. How did the police find. That night wasn't his nights he had plenty of. not there's Yes no recollection. Plenty of knives. I came kmart that day. Yeah yeah yeah he did yeah. Didn't he wasn't knives shopping that afternoon upon arriving at the carnegie hall yeah them to find it allegedly he says specifically that it was a police that took him to where that knife was going to be. So that's consistent with what he said before they told him. We're gonna find your knife. Yes yes the pants. We didn't get into the pants. He had just had so many unknowns. We'd never felt like this. Crucial cops admitted they never found any blood who knows how the hell they got what they were. Who found him. It didn't matter we didn't get there. The three and a half hours we were with him. Flew by so there are definitely follow up questions future conversations so rosencrantz. Did he see them. Yes yes he did. See them tonight of a that wednesday night. Salt saw them at the mall. Bumped into them says. The conversation was casual that he did not give any statements about he was there to kill somebody and in fact he you know he specifically said. I'm not a stupid guy. If if i was there to kill somebody. I'm not going to tell to people that on there to kill somebody and then go kill okay. So did he tell joe he was going to a party. Joe does recall seeing jill that night. He been details about their their friendship friendship. That included a trip to canada hike. Like a high school trip. Yeah school triple they were. They were both laos cared about each other I think it was. He didn't deny or confirm he just didn't remember seeing her t no von yes so he liked this question had been there and no or yes. You've been multiple times did you. Talk about amy. yes we did. Talk about amy He did not you know he. He didn't have a close relationship with amy. He was around amy for being around david but they were never like one on one personal friends. They had had one described an intimate conversation as in personal one on one conversation And that was the only time that he and amy had ever really spoken in that way. What is your belief right now. Him and amy being evolved. I don't see any indication of you involved. So it's a big question is to joe. Say he did this. No joe said he absolutely did not do this so he adamantly maintains innocence. He did not kill online. David did us no indication. Yeah no indication that david did this. He believes that they didn't do he. He told us that. Over and over that david didn't have anything to do with it. He didn't have anything to do with it. Like did you get the sense that he was covering david. No no no. And he's adamantly. David never asked me to do anything to see. You found him to be honest. Yeah or at least. I mean i mean when he tells you i didn't do this do you believe him. Do you believe that. He believes he didn't do this. I believe he believes he then do absolutely believe he believes he didn't do it. I know that sounds confusing. Someone either committed murder or didn't right while we know that people can lie to themselves. They can block stuff how they can convince themselves that something is the truth even if it objectively as end they said joe seemed believable when he said he was innocent. For whatever it's worth they didn't sense he was lying to them l. We've got it. Keep pushing and jason humour things to figure out exactly what we believe. And i asked the question that would change everything. Do we have a timeline for him. What is his story. We don't have the time line that we would like to have the events of that night. Is that what we're asking all take you know there's just And there is a version of events that he's sticking to yes so to answer your question yes. There is version of events that he's sticking to now the fall of question is what's that version of events and and And this is where joe's story gets even more complicated than we ever imagined coming up next time on murder in alliance. He would have been screaming from the rooftops for a long time. That was really the case fled or she insists this kind man snaps because yvonne just doesn't want to have sex with him. I mean a false sitting here right now on the joe tough to get the word out it. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I feel like. I got like a tough. I dot emotional. I don't know why feel really confused. Emotional word people's lives now. Y'all if you like this show. Please consider joining the unjust and unsolved patriotic. It shows how much you care and helps us. Continue to tell these stories plus get some awesome bonus episodes. qna's and events as a. Thank you and please lease rate. Emmer view the more reviews the more attention. And the more likely we're gonna get tips and leads in the right. Ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern. And bob mallory is engineering. Assistant for more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murderer. An alliance on twitter and instagram at murder underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com.

joe david sam josh hallmark joe wilkes jill David david thorne Sam keyes Josh hallmark Pegg joe yvonne lane Joe joe requires david jill new joe Kager party Fbi Poff
19: The Circling

Murder In Alliance

39:56 min | 2 weeks ago

19: The Circling

"Y'all i want to tell you about one of my good friends. Sarah attorneys podcast voices for justice. Sarah started voices for justice by discussing her own sister. Eliza attorneys true crime case and while elizabeth case is now awaiting trial. She's covering other cases in need of justice. Sarah is not just a true crime host. She's an advocate who has first hand experience investigating and advocating for victims and their family members in the true crime. Space and voices for justice isn't just a true crime podcast. It goes beyond asking listeners to consume true crime. Each episode ends with an actionable steps to help cases in need of justice. And sarah doesn't just feature stories that need justice she also features inspiring stories of survival or resolution to further. Give hope there can be justice in these cases. Voices for justice is an amazing podcasts. And i'm not just saying that. Because i love sarah. It was featured on apple podcast news and noteworthy category. When it came out in two thousand eighteen it won the twenty twenty discover pods people choice award. It hit top ten in all categories and apple podcasts and has over six million downloads. You can find voices for justice on your favorite hod cast player previously on murder alliance. He would've been screaming from the rooftops for a long time. That was really the case. Or is this kind man snaps. Because yvonne just doesn't wanna have sex with him. I mean a false sitting here right now on the joe. It's tough to get the word it. I don't know what to do. i don't know what to do. I feel like. I got like tough. I down emotional. I don't know why feel really confused. Emotional word lives. This is murder an alliance an active investigation into who killed a lane. I'm maggie freeling. In august of this year we finally had an interview scheduled with david thorne. The man whose murder conviction had brought all together in the first place. We were reeling from her interview with his supposed accomplice. Joe wilkes and could not wait to get back on the ground and talk to david to ask him to help us make sense of all this contradictory information we now had. so what. What is your plan of action paint. Just a lot of open ended stuff and see what he's going to let us know about proactively at the beginning of the season. I had said i'd never heard a bad thing about david. The image. I've built up of david in my mind of a nice good looking. Twenty something guy who got along with his ex girlfriend and wasn't violent by nature but all of that was starting to come crumbling down. We now have police. Reports friends an x.'s. All making allegations about violence in fact a listener emailed saying she was screaming at the phone. When i said david seems like such a nice guy because she said she's from the area and with actually the one who called nine one one the night david allegedly bashed in a woman's car window already felt some things that are very flattering about david that word that he's never disclosed. How wanna give him the opportunity to tell us things that we already know just to see if he's going to be remotely forthcoming You know. I think there's a lot of questions that have never been asked of him so we're going to have to ask him some of those about who he was at the time. I don't want him to try to bullshit us we wanted to know about the real david. Not the candy coated. Pg version the honest truth. Good bad the ugly. The guys told him this point blank in one of their conversations before the visit my thought is we approaching this like if we were the prosecutors knowing this is coming when we be out doing to attack what investigators john magazines coming up with right now. Yeah let's just pretend like this is a whole fresh starting can put back in court. Grants eight new hearing. If i'm a prosecutor what am i out and talking to the same people that they're talking to. Yeah yeah basically in order to help you. We need to know everything so nothing is surprise and we are ready to combat it if it goes back to court and in total fairness i never asked david some of this i never point blank said. Did you ever get violent with people. Maybe if i had he would have told me about some of these incidents that have us so rattled. Maybe when the guys do ask those questions point blank he will tell them the truth so we can all move past it and onto. What's really important figuring out. Who truly murdered yvonne lane so while driving to the prison we laid out some of the questions. We have related to the case. gino know. Maybe you know there's the whole question. Obviously where was he that afternoon. There are two stories about what happened. March thirty first and april first. What david says happened. And what law enforcement says yet. Both stories have some consistencies. Everyone agrees david got off. Work at twelve twenty nine. The afternoon of march thirty first between then. His time is technically unaccounted for. Although david says he was at the pet store and cleaning outlines cages the prosecution says that this is when he was taking joe to the mall to get the murder gloves and the hotel room. There's a receipt of joe checking into the hotel at one forty six. Pm and a receipt for the clubs at one. Forty seven. Remember someone. From the hotel testified. The clock was off by a few minutes then at some point david wound up at the economics around five. Pm on the thirty. First with joe and the lion cub. Remember the inox where the people joe was staying with after he got kicked out of his girlfriend's a few days earlier and no one denies that this incident with the cub happened around five. Pm then david goes to shoot fighting where he's accounted for. Everyone remembers him with the lion cub. And he's back to amy's and then home by midnight when we can see calls between david and amy happening from their phone records the next morning david's at work by six. Am and everyone agrees. He took a break that morning. And this is where. David's alibi comes in for the morning. The prosecution's that he picked up joe remember. Joe called david's pager. At eight twenty eight. Am the morning of april i. That's not in dispute. however david's time card says he only left to work for half an hour at nine. Am which david always pointed to as proof. He couldn't have been picking up. Joe see. I couldn't have got him from the mall and then drove him all the way back to ravenna an hour drive back and forth without traffic. It just doesn't happen in a half hour and also david came back with warm egg mcmuffins for everyone. David said he was at the mcdonald's drive through and they mess up the order sort of make up for their mistake. The workers give him the rest of the breakfast food. Because david said this was around the time they were closing breakfast so he drove away with fifteen sandwiches which took back to his coworkers. Something everyone remembered about him returning but then at trial. David's friend and boss. Charlie tool testified that david was actually gone on that break for longer than a half hour. He said he was gone for an hour to an hour and a half returning around ten fifteen ten thirty. And when you read the trial testimony of patricia tool charlie's mom she did the time cards. She said it was common practice. She would just put a half an hour for a lunch break when she had to leave early before the guys took a break. This was one of those days. I need to kiss some explanation beyond the thirty minutes written on that time card. Because that's that whole snow water with me. I mean so. We'll ask him about that. So if patricia tool just wrote a half hour and it's not exactly how long david punched in and out that. We really have no idea how long he was gone. David said he left at nine. But mcdonald's breakfast certainly ended somewhere around ten ten thirty. even sue. david's wife told me it ended at ten. Am so if he left work at nine and was at mcdonald's towards the end of breakfast that would mean he was gone for at least an hour but sue has always said that she spoke to charlie tool and he told her. The police coerced him to stretch the time to an hour hour and a half. So we called charlie to figure out what was going on. Y'all i finally got my pair of anna luisa ordered and let me tell you. I am obsessed with us. I love anna. Louisa because their jewelry is affordable and sustainable. You can go to ana luisa dot com slash alliance to get ten percent off using code alliance that's a. n. a. l. u. s. a. anna louisa releases new jewelry collections. Every friday. and if you don't find something this friday check back next friday. So what i picked was a pair of tiny silver safety pin earrings. And i love this because my style is somewhere between punk and professional so why not have a pair of high quality silver safety pin earrings that i can keep who i am but still look ready for business. Go to ana luisa dot com. That's an a. L. u. s. a. dot com slash alliance to get ten percent off using code alliance. Ana luisa is carbon-neutral it's sourced sustainably. An equality is exceptional prices. Start at just thirty nine dollars. You truly can't beat this again. There's something for everybody. If i could find something for me. I bet you could find something for you. I tend to believe how many comments have gotten on these earrings. They are not big statement pieces. They're tiny and sheikh yet noticeable. And i've been so excited to tell people that they're from one of my sponsors so if you wanna support me if you want to support this podcast checkout anna luisa using code alliance at checkout to get ten percent off. That's anna louisa dot com slash alliance code alliance to get ten percent off. Hello is a sub. Mr mr tool. Charlie tool does this by my name. Is john harden. I am an investigator. a work for an innocence project and we get asked to estimate reinvestigate crimes to see if we believed credence to somebody saying they're innocent prison so as probably comes to no surprise to you. I've been asked to go out on. Sorry i'm not interested. Thanks could i ask you one question. That's all i need to ask allow. He just hung up on you. Yeah exactly so. What does that mean is. He doesn't want to get his fucking name involved. Another dead end and i couldn't help but wonder if you believe your friend is innocent or if you lied for him and after all these years. It's on your conscience. Wouldn't you want to help. Unfortunately at this point it was up to david to give the guys everything he could tell them the truth the whole truth. Nothing but the truth to help them help him. I want him to not bullshit us with who he was back then so if he if he out of the gate you know tells us things that he was involved in things that we know about things that we don't know about Then i'll be more apt to listen to him as he's telling us things about this case we arrive on the guys go in again leaving me in the car and again it was another few hours so this time i took a joyride. The area around the prison is actually quite beautiful. And finally they surface as soon as danny got in the car. He noted the seat and the mirror changes. I was driving like three feet tall then he of course it's going to be different. Listen i didn't move. The other mirrors was really start. Full of danny's driving. Okay so what happens. Only everything you know. First of all there was no sort of aha moment either way anything that was revelation related vein complete ignorance and and the subject changed really quickly a made not a couple of times where he didn't really know where we were going or what we were asked all of a sudden the subject change break hell donna. Dania were able to take notes. Which made this different from the joe interview. And that's because john. And danny were able to secure an official legal visit with david which meant that. David had his attorney of record present. And the guys were able to bring in notepads and pens. Jonah started out with the time. Line of the morning of maple i and really just what motivation would the would the tools have for saying that he was gone for an hour and a half when he was only gone for a half hour. Now we did start talking. We talked about the time cards and he seemed to acknowledge that it was common practice for her to write thirty minutes. Down on those time cards. So you know that tells me. I've this perfectly believable. She had no reason to lie about that So the time card thing does nothing for me for him establishing alibi because he himself just acknowledge. You know that those a common thing. What this means is that it was completely plausible for david to leave work pickup joe at the mall and bring him home to the inox before going back to work in fact it's more than plausible patricia tool said that not only did she automatically right thirty minutes. It doesn't mean. He left for thirty minutes but patricia her husband dale and her son. Charley all actually remember david either saying a few days in advance or even that day that he had to leave around nine and this was unusual. Everyone usually just came and went as they pleased and didn't need to inform anyone when they'd be leaving reminded him the the tools liked his work and respect them. He said that he liked them. And so we were just trying to get out. Why would what motivation would they have to stretch that time line and he really just no but he was like i was definitely only our slutty. Says this is a blow for david's alibi. For the time period in which prosecutors believe he picked up joe the morning. After you vaughn's murder so where did he say. He was the thirty first. When joe says he was brought to the malls five straight. That's what he told me buying fish. Yeah we got him to acknowledge that that could have many simpleton. Men are processed by remember. David got off work at twelve twenty nine earlier than usual. The morning of the thirty first. He worked through his break so he could get off earlier but after that. Twelve twenty nine clock out. David doesn't have a solid time stamp until around four. pm when his grandfather testified quote. David got home from work. So what was david doing from twelve thirty to four pm. David said he was buying fish cleaning. Cat cages the prosecution said david was helping. Joe get a hotel room acknowledged that he would have left at noon that day but can't explain anything really again until he goes home to change however david's grandpa said he was home by four when he saw him so the guys continue their line of questioning and ask him about the rest of the day mainly they want to know how david and joe wound up together on the thirty first the exact night of the murder because remember. They were together around five pm in annex driveway with the cup trying to figure out how the fuck you get to the right. So we're taking you know he's taken us through the day and i was like okay. We'll just remember what you can you know. And and they wanted us to believe after the fish villain the tag faith. His big fish cleaning out the dog sits dark. Voting up. teicher was coming in to amy's grandparent's house getting off work if he was gonna paint to where they were. Just gonna go off to the karate stew but no matter. How many times are ways. The guy said they asked. David left out a key point. Were alive well. Why the second year in the e. knox front yard with a fucking cat. How did that happen if joe's just some when you pick up when you feel sorry right remember. David always said he was really only with joe when he saw him around asking for a ride he pick him up but the police reports from the car window infinite show. That's not quite true. Joe was also there that night so we know that they did at times. Hang out together. It wasn't just rides one minimize how much he knew live and how much he was around. Joe the tactic was to make sure he knew. We knew you or with joe. The evening that yvonne later dies that evening you were with joe in the yard with a cat yeah. I wanted him to know that you cannot escape that right. Yeah how did you get there because he kept minimizing joe will the of god areas walking out again so once the guys pointed out he was with joe he then incorporated joe back into the story. Mass how he dances into. Oh obsolete then he goes. and he's at this at the drive thru of bob bob pizza and he looks up and all of a sudden. There's joe waving at him and says hey you know what you do. All of this is where i'm staying. Here's the driveway. Pull in here. And he's an. I had no idea that he was staying. At the inex- it was pure coincidence. However some arena. Joe's friend told the police that david had come to the house prior to the thirty first. She said she met david at the house. Just a few days. After joe moved in she said maybe the twenty eighth or twenty ninth so according to summer david did know joe was staying at the inox. So could all three inox be lying about these events or could david and the reason i was going through the drive thru was to get a soda to save it for later after shoot fighting. That was kind of weird. You know why are you picking up a soda. That's going to sit in your fucking truck or whatever for six hours after when he gets back in. Fuck that up in the past. When david explained how we wound up with joe his official written out time line that sue sent me was that he just saw him walking on porter road and picked him up. Could he have been confused. Sure but it's hard for me to get past that if you're innocent don't you know packwood's and forwards the day that ruin your life exactly to t- what you were doing especially when you were brought into the police station two days later as a person of interest it just doesn't make sense to me. I would have been racking my brain for every minor detail. That could show my innocence. I know from past interviews that it's burned into the brains of other people who claim they're innocent know we know memories aren't tape recorders. Just tell us what you do remember. And he left out the person that is responsible for him sitting in that jail he completely without prompting. He was not going to bring up the fact that he was with joe at the end. Yeah it didn't because he was given the opportunity. Yeah this was also right before. He said he got subway with his girlfriend. Amy why wouldn't you get the fucking soda. Subway subway drinks back in ninety nine. I don't know who knows. Why for the record. He didn't specify what kind of soda. If you're wondering subway didn't have that specific kind so he had to get it at the drive through. I don't know then they ask david. About what sam pegg said remember. She's one of joe's best friends and she told us. Joe repeatedly told her before the murder that david wanted. Yvonne gone. y'all it's fall and that is my favorite time of year. Not just because of the weather but because of the food. And that's why i'm here to tell you that. Hellofresh has mouth watering seasonal recipes. You can get delivered right to your door. Hellofresh offers fifty menu and market items to choose from every week from vegetarian meals to calorie smart choices to extra special gourmet options. 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Plus all the best horror documentaries and the hit creepshow tv series from executive producer. Greg nicotera of the walking dead. Try it for free for thirty days. Go to shudder dot com and use promo code. Mia that's s. h. u. d. d. e. r. Promo code m. i a you know some weeks leading up to the murder. Joe was saying that you were telling him that you wanted to gone. And i said a point blank. Did that happen. No that was the other place. I put in my notes. He said no and then he immediately goes into how pitiful joe is and i wrote my notes change subject quickly. You know. and so the guy's pivoted. Who were you before all this happened. You know and wanted to tell him to tell us good things which he did only tell us good things i was a great friend knows loyal. You know i could be a little bit uglier. Whatever so they're like okay. We'll let trouble did. Was there any trouble. I got few speeding tickets. Dany you tell us about this broken window. And then he tells us about that and he'll go on and what else you know. What other kinds of stuff did you get into and you know and every fucking thing that we mentioned. What about you know did you. Did you kick somebody's door. Oh yeah did that. That was a judge. He was drunk. You know and It wasn't offering we head hitting with what we know. Yes yes once. He knew we knew. Then he'd oh. Yeah that's yeah it's like okay. What else well did you ever ask. Somebody's limp and the guy said once. They confronted him with the facts of what happened here. Admit to it but it was always someone else's fault that it happened the always something every every altercation that we were able to pull out of him it was somebody else. Well you know. I i just can't key. It was really something to me that we gave him plenty of. Opportunities like dude good batter. Ugly you know. Tell us what what your life was like what you're involved in trouble you got in. He's speeding tickets and that was all he was going to say. He didn't volunteer a single thing. Did he as far as like any of those incidents. We were having to educate him to get the answers. We wanted him to give us. I'm gonna play chunks of the conversation we had but know that we were driving and the background noise changes from one moment to the next everything that we got out of him was because we knew ahead of time. What these accusations were. He did not volunteer a mother. Fucking thing that prosecutors are taught. Never ask a question that you don't already know the. Yeah that's what we did and only because we asked did he give yup only he was gonna leave it as i got a few students. That was that that's where he wanted to leave it. That was his answer and we even let let a pause sit there for a little bit where nobody said anything like are you are you gonna. Are you gonna say more you know. What about shooting the car. Yeah did do remember the allegations from his ex girlfriend. Angie from last episode only once she hobby but he denied choking her. He denied Pulling her hair and her head to the steady surprised like what we did he. I think he was surprised by it. He denied it all. I felt deflated. But this time. I have to say i was ready for it. There was no more crying or feeling sorry for myself and everyone involved. So i asked the guys for the truth of how they felt after the interview. Were you know when you leave an interview and you feel like you've shared more information than the person who's fighting for their live. There's a reason behind. We is there or is he an idiot. Be i mean date. David say a charismatic guy. And in a slick talker. But i'm not gonna say that he's a brain surgeon you know. He's smart enough to know that his words he doesn't want his words suffered. He's careful and selective. He's only share with you what he thinks. You've already out. Because you know i don't know. Are you picking up on these david. Koresh vibes picked up on this vibe. When he is processed in his response he does flutter smiles a little. There's a look on these away for him to express minimization the fodder and the graham. He's thought having to make direct contact sawn so on. Because i feel like that's his way of handling uncomfortable or sensitive discussions when he did it throughout that interview because he was by the first ten minutes twenty minutes. It was so obvious to me. That as things i twenty minutes talking about. Yeah yeah how is daily lives but as sensitive various and i watched his facial mannerisms nelson. It's almost like uh watching someone on monograph on a control question then. Rational mush is easy to say. Yes my name is danny or yes from austin texas but did you keller way. We got into sensitive areas his head. What drop a little bit is is would. His blinking was delay in he would grin. Is he gave this all. That's no big deal comedy. Notice that like that john did. So you're saying that's weird tell could not refuse our suspicions. We couldn't from tom cart. And we says let's just forget about i time corden. All these says our biggest issue is we never detached. Joe from yvonne's and we know that at five o'clock that night you were with joe shitty as he was messed up as his life was at five o'clock in the front yard of the homie was living in showing off at tiger in a few hours later she's dead. That's our problem. Yeah had nothing. nothing. Yeah i had hoped that when the guys met david he would convince them he'd fight for his life with everything. He had to prove his innocence. He would be an open book and he would be desperate to tell them everything but that doesn't seem like what happened at all. I don't wanna make it all sound bad horrible or anything like that. The overall thing was really good. He knows what's happening right now. He knows that he's got to be forthcoming. We've i made that clear to him from the very beginning. I have the same conversation that i have with. Everybody we're looking at you're lying to us will find out we're going to drop and we told you that from the beginning. We can't do it if you're going to be like that. And it never would have even coma. He would you know had had the three of us not been on the ground and learn what we learned their support of me. That wants to take up for joe. If in my heart of hearts believe that david had something to do with that part of me. Wants to take up for joe. Because everybody believes in david and joe's the bad and if david had something to do with the best completely unfair joe and then y'all know what the next. There's always a final bombshell. The guys told me some information that absolutely floored me. David always gave me the impression he didn't know about yvonne sex work until trial. But then i saw amy's grand jury statements saying david told her quote devan had a drug problem was a prostitute quote and david's grandfather. Telling the grand jury quote. She was a high priced. Call girl so. I circled back to david. How could people in his life know about the sex work. If he himself hadn't told them about it or himself didn't even know he said okay he did know but only after they broke up. It seemed. We were both confused. So i never could get a clear answer but i never really thought it was particularly important. Just odd so i let it be but because it was odd i mentioned it to the guys and they figured it was odd to me. Maybe it meant something so they asked david style. Oh he knew all about that he took her to. He took her to west virginia because she was going to be an escort at these things so knowing full well knowing full well. That's what she was going to do but yes he was. Yeah i i know she drop off. Just get it out of my mind. The guy said that he told them he knew exactly why she was going and when they asked how he felt about it he explained that he just had to put it out of his mind and move on. It was as clear as day to john. And danny that david knew about yvonne escorting that he drove her to these places and knew exactly what she was doing and remember. This is what david told me. What did you think she was doing when she was going to. The conventions said something that she got a an office job and she was going to a convention for something. I don't. I don't recall what it was to be honest. It was only half paying attention to what it was that she would even talk about for job. Why did he lie to me. You'll have to ask him that. Owned and so i did coming up next time on murder alliance. I told them. I said i don't know exactly what time that i was there other than that. I never said i wasn't there. You had to have thought about that day a million times. That's the day that put you in prison. Ups alert. doug gives david a chance is getting harder and harder to find. I mean we've turned over a stone store. There's only allowed. There's nothing under the remain vain stones. Well they had to pull information at it view. I don't know what it is that you want me to say to you unless you asked me the question timeline of your day. What is the timeline of your day. You know you're at the off. Why didn't you put that in your time line. If chris campbell's days weather story sale stands by the story. Do you have contemporaneous 'continuing verification. And then we have a hidden domestic violence situation which was island all shed. Y'all if you like this show please consider joining the unjust and unsolved patron. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please lease rate. Emmer view the more reviews the more attention and the more likely. We're going to get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by need maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern. And bob mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murderer. An alliance on twitter and instagram at murder. Underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder and alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed mark dot com.

david joe David Joe ana luisa slash alliance anna luisa anna louisa Mia maggie Sarah maggie freeling mcdonald david thorne Joe wilkes patricia yvonne danny yvonne lane amy
12: The Shakedown

Murder In Alliance

35:20 min | 3 months ago

12: The Shakedown

"Y'all have you heard what bob ross up to in twenty twenty one and if you don't know who he is you absolutely should bob is the host of the hit true crime podcast truth and justice and if you love murderer an alliance you will love truth and justice and bob has just launched a show that i am obsessed with in fact i'm a guest on it and i listened to every single episode. You need to check out true crime binge every week bob is joined on the show by another true crime. Podcast host for me. It's like a podcast lovers version of broken. I get to listen to all of my friends opened up on bob's show. Bob has a way of getting really interesting information out of the guests. He has on for example. Did you know that. David regan records himself eating breakfast or that. Pain lindsay was in a boy band before up and vanished. Learn about these. Podcasts hosts personal lives their production. And there's always a discussion about case of the week download and subscribe to true crime bench today. Wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every wednesday. Check it out and you might just find your next true crime binge previously on an alliance. I know you have no idea who i am but i have some interesting things that we learned that allows murder through the years. That someone's closes. You had a million dollars run through your head wondering who could have done this. Who was there who could possibly know something officer that lived near here in one of these to get into all that i mean like i said this is add to this conversation. No you've got family in law enforcement right. Yes mr jacobs's a captain their law. Hey i gotta go you guys. Great day every time we reference police. Shut it down my throat. I've met the killer. And i know where he is and i suspect he's still killing and yes he's a cop. This is murder and alliance an active investigation into who killed a lane. I'm maggie freely And when i first learned about david thorne's conviction i'd really only heard the basics about the woman at the heart of the story a new yvonne lane had five kids. I knew she was gorgeous. But i didn't know a lot about her life or personality. David spoke of her in glowing terms at first but as i dug deeper my understanding of this twenty six year old woman started to evolve. She was complicated. Of course we all are but she was more than that. She loved her children yet by their own accounts. She did mistreat them sometimes. She allegedly sold her body for money and yet wanted to be a good jehovah's witness in the eyes of her parents so confused. I circled back to david a few months into my investigation. He agreed yeah. He hadn't told the full truth about yvonne when i first asked because he didn't want to quote be smarter. It's tricky to talk about someone when they're dead nothing. Yvonne did could have justified nearly decapitating her and so david didn't talk much about the qualities in her. That people might judge but to understand a murder of this type. One in which i believe is personal. You have to understand the victim. Police know this. Of course that's why one of the first questions they try to answer in a homicide is is there anyone who would want the victim dead most homicides are at the hands of someone. The victim knows so. It's an obvious starting point yet. According to the case file and yvonne's murder investigators in this case didn't bother interviewing a lot of the people closest to her. There are no records of interviews with her sisters or her father. We only know of her mother. Tanya speaking to the police as well as a young woman who as far as tanya new was yvonne's closest friend your name was given us and given you any information we might be with us and it was. This is an interview with a twenty nine year. Old woman named liz conducted by detective samson and macklowe on april second nineteen thousand nine hundred nine. It's one of the few interviews on file with people in vons life and it seems like it's an important one for anyone trying to understand her personality and lifestyle. According to liz. Yvonne was a lot more complicated and she apparently seemed to some people. Yes she had her wild side but she also wanted to make jehovah's witness parents proud and so that's how she met liz. Liz was a member of the church. I started bible. Study to help food trying to give remind fun traffic train street out and her time and having kids and really needs to take such von in november of nineteen ninety-seven for eight months and she's francine and during that time is when she would confide in. The high. schools are on wednesday night at eight o'clock and offering. Liz von mostly talked about her relationship with eric. Eric even joined their study session a few times he wanted to marry and she told him she would marry him is. He wanted the same thing as she wanted him street. Now because i have to rematch. How she wanted him to study the bible also and during that time she wanted to quit smoking free for him and feeling chinese jews his rank and she would hinge due to. Liz also told similar accounts of yvonne and eric's relationship that we had heard before he in the past that he very slow and to be clear. We've tried to reach out to eric. Multiple times through different means and so far had no luck so the only information we have about iraq and yvonne is what others have said. Liz also said yvonne told her stories that really say a lot about who yvonne was could not believe. These things happen to point one time she. She's the sense away in play towards the evening and she said she told me that tall black putting into jewelry in his pocket and says she went more severe. Get outta here down as you're afraid of she said if you don't let somebody knows that you're not afraid of them and to confront and she will come back in the middle of the night. Just you girls. she hasn't show you remember. She said she command from down the street and she he and this isn't the first time that we heard that he was fearless. Maybe to a fault fan. She hurt somebody to storm. Stole part your cigarettes. And most of her. And i'm like sitting story. He's interested schuster and things to have stories. I it just seemed odd asssociation because you a complaint that all the time about you know being afraid that he was coming in and kill. You might on shocking. I thought that this tidbit was interesting. Liz wondering why all these things would happen to von. And then she said. While i guess it's her associations although liz never mentioned knowing that vaughan hung out with shady people or specifically who any of the people were that she mentioned. It seems like liz sensed the crowd yvonne ran with whom he wanted tiny your. She feared laughing. Whatever despite tanya saying that she thought. Liz volmer close set. Her friendship with yvonne was pretty short lived after studying. They mostly lost touch eight months ago. I really don't information what happened last year. In nineteen ninety eight after that eight months. Liz said she saw von here and there but no catching up was. Didn't know much about yvonne's personal life besides eric detectives asked her about david and she didn't know much at all. I hadn't talked to her. She would express concern. You might have been different. Didn't expressing concern. She seemed happy. So liz lost touch with von. Which makes it interesting to me. That tanya yvonne's mother named liz as her daughter's best friend clearly even though tanya still saw yvonne off time she didn't know much about what was going on with her daughter. And everything i do for. My cats is rooted in love even when they're testing my patients. I always want what's best for them. And that's why i'm always late to work because i don't want to move them when we're in bed and love is also keeping tabs on my cats health because nothing is more important than their health and wellbeing. Because they're keep me happy. And that's why i use pretty litter. Pretty litter has hands down. Been my favorite cat litter. I have ever had and i promise you. I have tried them all. It is lightweight dust free. And it's ultra absorbent crystals trap odor instantly and last up to a month. It is unreal. I wish i had pretty litter ten years ago and the best part is is that the litter changes colors to help detect early signs of potential illness including urinary tract infections and kidney issues my cats and i are literally obsessed with pretty litter and we will never go back. Love is putting your cats health. I with pretty litter. Do what i did and make the switch today by visiting pretty litter dot com and use promo code. Mia for twenty percent off your first order. That's pretty litter dot com promo code. M i a for twenty percent off pretty litter dot com. Promo code am i a hundred feet. Turn right north lincoln while they really are the streets while danny john and i wanted to see if we could find out what yvonne's life was like during those final. This danny. are you pam i pam. I'm danny this which allowed grab a chair. You sit down in the comfy chair. No no go ahead. One of the first things we did when we got to alliance was tracked down a woman named pam who had come up as someone yvonne was close with. However it's important to note that they did have a falling out about a year before yvonne steph over an incident. Were evonne quote. Beat the crap out of pam for stealing. her purse. Pam said was on drugs and it wasn't a proud moment and yet it appears. The police never interviewed pam. Either as a suspect yvonne's murder or as one of her closest friends. Are you surprised yet. Go on sorry of talk about moving. Sure i said how did her honors pam said she used to live next to yvonne's parents and you yvonne. Since she was a kid pam would have been in her forties when yvonne was murdered. So how long have you known her there. Having six seventy eight. So you're talking about next to where she grew up that her parents unicycle. Okay so and notre. Since if you knew her in the seventies she was born in seventy two while got away at pam seemed to know a lot of the things about yvonne. Yvonne may be would have been uncomfortable. Telling liz strict jehovah's witness the lawn like being under house. Joe dad's child you shooting. God life she takes showers. She said i did to one. Chance insidious dirty little doubt fares watch. Tv yes she did not like being remember. I had mentioned before that evonne had told people that her dad had sexually abused her. Pam was one of those people yet people she said she was. She told you that he had people who she was looking at her. He would look at yes. She did trump for you. Talking about is his name sherman. I have tried multiple times to reach sherman and so far. I have not had any luck. John and danny asked pam. It was aware of yvonne soliciting herself for money and pam said she had only heard after the fact. But i'd never know you do not live her but there was some information pam did say she knew but she had trouble cops and she was dating a cop. This was the first time we had heard from someone that evonne had specifically told them she was seeing a cop covered. Tell you. And i didn't wanna livni wished cop she so she was dating one willingly. Yes and you don't remember we've got how okay okay. She didn't tell and pam had more to safe. she had a belliard feeder. She never gets old actress when she's pregnant. She is worshipped prayed. And actually the last photos taken of yvonne in her home just a couple days before her murder she's wearing an oversized shirt with a horse. It that allegedly. She would only where when she was pregnant but she doesn't look visibly pregnant even in her autopsy photos. But according to liz interview with mcclellan samson how yvonne looked didn't seem to change when she was pregnant she gave voters today even pregnant and Janitor you cannot even tell you shooter kinda like come on in in february overdue. Couple of weeks i think. So was yvonne pregnant for the record. The coroner's report doesn't mention anything one way or another about pregnancy. It only notes that her sexual organs were quote on remarkable. But coroners and cops do have a pretty cozy relationship. Sometimes which got pam thinking. What if she had been pregnant and the baby daddy was a cop. Maybe a cop who didn't want his wife to know he was having an affair or didn't want to have a baby and pay child support and she prayed tried to blackmail. Daddy was something that you could see her life blackmailing to get money to keep it. Quiet are usually the baby daddy. Bet they want to keep quiet. And even if yvonne wasn't pregnant that doesn't mean she didn't believe she was or less generously didn't claim to be even if she knew she wasn't i normally wouldn't jump to that thinking but even david said he knew yvonne to tell boyfriends that she was pregnant just to get what she wanted out of them. So is it possible. She was pregnant. Wasn't noted in the coroner report in effort to keep it secret or she told someone who is pregnant when she wasn't to shake down the supposed father at this point. Neither scenario seems to fetch to me especially the possibility of a shakedown attempt. Did she ever tell you about shaking people down. I knew that that's kind of something before. This is me on a call with david. Some months ago she would tell people that she was pregnant. And ask for money for an abortion. That's how she would send money to eric when he was genuine joint because he was in and so often and this actually affected david personally when he found out about his son brandon. I didn't honestly think she was pregnant. And the shakedown. Scenario isn't just from david pam. It also allegedly came from the mouth of one of the detectives on yvonne's case as a detective who handled the case i was i was kinda surprised even bad. This is duane pullman again whom you've heard from in earlier episodes. He's an award-winning investigative. Journalist from ohio. Dwayne spent years investigating events murder and actually met with detective. John leech at a restaurant during his investigation. According to wayne this is what happened when they sat down. So you're at a restaurant and he just says this to you. Yeah in a in a sit down. I don't know what the hell we were at an eight. I was like this is really weird Heat he without any context. Just blurts out that some Or had gotten a hold of his wife. I don't use that term. He did a hold of his wife to try to shake to try to blackmail. Jacob down and i said who else could that be because you had done that. According to people. I talked to before hail just wanted to let you know that we now have a confidential and anonymous tip line if you have information about the murder of yvonne lane and you don't want to share your name please call eight eight eight eight six three nine five five zero and leave a message again if you have any information about the murder of yvonne lane even if you think it's nothing please call eight eight eight six three nine five zero. It is confidential and anonymous and does not go to the police. It goes directly to us john danny and myself. We haven't talked much about detective. John leech but i mentioned him. When describing the crime scene detective leach was at the murder scene with detectives muck low and samson and was with them when they conducted some key interviews including the one that led to joe wilkes confession. And if you're wondering who. The cop was that george hale said. He identified leaving vonts house the morning of her murder. We don't know for sure. But george said he identified a cop who looked just like leach in the lineup. He was given and because of this detective. Leach was always interesting to duane saying that. That lee had anything to do with this. I want you to be clear on that. I have landing on probably not by you know it did kind of project a motive for covering up things and trying to make it go away. That's what i took away from all that. I had speculated earlier in the season that based on the amount of corruption in the alliance police department. It was possible. The cops had a reason to cover up murder but now is even more of a motive to make it go away. Besides the potential drug connection to the cops and her sleeping with them was yvonne shaking. Someone down. was it a cop. Did that cop kill her or did he cover up for another cop either at the crime scene with the coroner or both so many questions. I asked david about all of this. Like he mentioned. He knew about the shakedowns while they were dating but there was a lot about yvonne. He didn't learn until after she died. So did you know about a on dancing. She told me this dance before. Yeah and then. I guess she was going to too little clubs or something like that kind of on the side after her night already broken up. It's like three phases that i know of her life. You know what i mean. Is that like shocking. To you are you like are we. Maybe now you've processed it but was this like who the hell was this person. I was dating then. David told me something we had never heard before she was going through a convention and then later that's whenever i found out that that was like a high end call girl. David said she'd ask him to drive her to the train station to go to neighboring states indiana illinois west virginia. He wasn't really sure but it was to work at conventions. What did you think she was doing when she was going to the conventions. She said something that she got a office job and she was going to convention for something. I i don't i don't recall what it was but to be honest it was only half paying attention so it was even talking about her job. Even whenever she picked up the job she never stayed anywhere for very long. Because something always come up with kids. It's just so bizarre. it's really. She had so many secrets how she kept everything straight. I don't know how she kept her life in a them Y'all it's the summer and for me. That means shaving more often. 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Just go to a senior club dot com and use promo code. Mia that's eight. T h e a. c. l. u. b. dot com with promo code. Mia for twenty percent off. Do you ever feel like you're being followed around the internet. Maybe advertisers know a bit too much about you. Well our new sponsor ip vanish. Vpn is here to help you. Take back your privacy and help become annonymous on the internet with ip vanish. You can use a vpn which is a virtual private network on your computers tablets phones even things like your fire stick when you're streaming media when you use a vpn all your data is encrypted what you're reading what you're searching what you're watching. Whatever it is you're doing and that's important because what you do on. The internet is no one else's business but yours. So now you can be anonymous with ip vanish vpn for listeners of this show i vanish is offering an incredible sixty five percent off. Just three forty nine for the first month or thirty one forty nine for the year. And here's everything you get anonymous. Ip addresses circumvent any online censorship. Get protection when using public wifi and twenty four seven support so go to ip vanish dot com slash mia and claim your sixty five percent off. They have planned starting at just three forty nine or thirty one forty nine year. This is the time to sign up if you're like me and you're concerned about internet privacy. It's time to sign up with our discount and the current promotional offerings. You can get a vpn for sixty five percent off their usual offering ip vanish is the best of the best. It's even right at four point seven out of five on trust pilot. And that's with more than six thousand reviews i p vanish dot com slash mea. To get the deal and start protecting yourself online again. I am not shaming. Yvonne's lifestyle still. It's important to note that if she was a dancer or an escort or a sex worker that just adds more people to the mix of potential suspects and the more we investigate the more people we find saying. These rumors were true. And that broadens the suspect pool which becomes even larger if yvonne was traveling to other states so with things starting to get messier than we expected. We decided to try another person who may know what was going on. In yvonne's life yes so has. Has anybody talked to you about avante in the last few years. Sister london bic. He's the uncle of eric who is allegedly. The father of three of yvonne's kids your sisters linda. Linda linda is yourself okay. So you knew on pretty well. Then decent yeah. She seems like a complicated person. She was in a lifestyle that apparently was predominantly white. All used to define a in. My mama's are all sweet sisters and stuff always used to. That will starve side. He or she was a brand. And i try to be the report shoes. My nephews crawl along on again and some dark side So when you say that she had a dark side. I mean we hear a lot of things. But what are you. What what are you referring to was. She which she pick fights between people and stuff like that. Yeah yeah kinda manipulative. Sometimes yeah wishing vic mention yvonne starting fights between him and his sister linda to get a rise out of linda in order to manipulate situations to get what she wanted and sister out of names here is he also said she was always on pills like germany had mentioned and again. I only bring that up not to shame anyone's use or addictions but to note the potential drug connection and her state of mind and speaking of her state of mind. We asked bic about something we heard she had come to. You saying she'd pissed off the wrong person at around that same winter. Your mom's house looking for you is what it was told us because she was in some kind of trouble and she was warning your hell and said that she had fucked with the wrong person mantle yvonne supposedly sought out vic for help but vic says yvonne never found him and if his mom told him about this incident he doesn't remember it however the story does fit into what we heard from jeremy that she was frantic just a few days before. She was murdered. So did she piss someone off and if so who so one other thing that we hear and we have no idea that this is true or not but that she was in involved with some number of police officers accompanying two three four. Whatever it was and that would shake them down. Essentially like maybe they were married and then she would shake down south. I'm gonna tell your wife or something old awesome one. Yeah you wouldn't put it past her at that time. Okay okay. Did you hear that. She involved with a lot of men for money. I i can only burn out. But i drive your lines here. I'd see her station waving car. I see you're on your mobile time talking to a policeman okay. Were they pulled her over. She willingly just pulling over and talk to them runs. You know any of those cops names that she was friends with others one okay. So she didn't ever say anything about being romantically or sexually involved with over but told you yes bar. We're going to beep this cops name for now since we've heard his name come up a few times and plan to look deeper. It happened when he first got win. Shoes dead you think david in the place some place we are gonna be so. That's why we want to talk to you because we knew this was true to the she came to your mom almost desperate looking for you. Say who would have been that bad at her. Based on everything we heard testimony through interviews and police records. No one wants said. David was mad at yvonne or forever had been nad or violent with her. Even sherman in court so they had a good relationship. I'm remember even the child support. Agents said everything seemed fine with them. So who could have been so mad at von that. They nearly decapitated her through a tv on her after. She was already brutalized and dead. All of this with her children at home coming up next time. I speak with renowned major case. Detective karen smith who is a forensic expert and she takes a look at the crime. Scene photos the autopsy all of the evidence and she has some new thoughts to add on this decades old case as to who could have killed new von lane. Y'all if you like this show fleas consider joining the unjust and unsolved patron. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please please. Rate emmer view the more reviews the more attention and the more likely. We're going to get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder alliance is produced and reported by. Meet maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Erin case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murderer. An alliance on twitter and instagram at murder underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com.

yvonne pam liz Liz eric bob david Yvonne evonne tanya David regan mr jacobs david thorne yvonne lane macklowe Liz von Liz volmer tanya yvonne
12: The Shakedown

Murder In Alliance

35:20 min | 3 months ago

12: The Shakedown

"Y'all have you heard what bob ross up to in twenty twenty one and if you don't know who he is you absolutely should bob is the host of the hit true crime podcast truth and justice and if you love murderer an alliance you will love truth and justice and bob has just launched a show that i am obsessed with in fact i'm a guest on it and i listened to every single episode. You need to check out true crime binge every week bob is joined on the show by another true crime. Podcast host for me. It's like a podcast lovers version of broken. I get to listen to all of my friends opened up on bob's show. Bob has a way of getting really interesting information out of the guests. He has on for example. Did you know that. David regan records himself eating breakfast or that pain. Lindsey was in a boy band before up and vanished. Learn about these. Podcasts hosts personal lives their production. And there's always a discussion about case of the week download and subscribe to true crime bench. Today wherever you get your podcast new episodes drop every wednesday. Check it out and you might just find your next true crime binge previously on murder and alliance. I know you have no idea who i am but i have some interesting things that we learned that allows murder through the years. That someone's closes. You had a million dollars run through your head wondering who could have done this. Who was there who could possibly know something officer that lived near here in one of these to get into all that i mean like i said this is add to this conversation. No you've got family in law enforcement right. Yes mr jacobs's a captain their law. Hey i gotta go. You guys grey day every time we reference police shut it down my throat. I've met the killer. And i know where he is and i suspect he's still killing and yes he's a cop. This is murder and alliance an active investigation into who killed a lane. I'm maggie freely And when i first learned about david thorne's conviction i'd really only heard the basics about the woman at the heart of the story a new yvonne lane had five kids. I knew she was gorgeous. But i didn't know a lot about her life or personality. David in fact spoke of her in glowing terms at first but as i dug deeper my understanding of this twenty six year old woman started to evolve. She was complicated. Of course we all are but she was more than that. She loved her children yet by their own accounts. She did mistreat them sometimes. She allegedly sold her body for money and yet wanted to be a good jehovah's witness in the eyes of her parents so confused. I circled back to david a few months into my investigation. He agreed yeah. He hadn't told the full truth about yvonne when i first asked because he didn't want to quote be smarter. It's tricky to talk about someone when they're dead nothing. Yvonne did could have justified nearly decapitating her and so david didn't talk much about the qualities in her. That people might judge but to understand a murder of this type. One in which i believe is personal. You have to understand the victim police. No this of course. That's why one of the first questions they try to answer in a homicide is. Is there anyone who would want the victim dead. Most homicides are at the hands of someone. The victim knows so. It's an obvious starting point yet. According to the case file and yvonne's murder investigators in this case didn't bother interviewing a lot of the people closest to her. There are no records of interviews with her sisters or her father. We only know of her mother. Tanya speaking to the police as well as a young woman who as far as tanya new was yvonne's closest friend. Your name was giving us given you any information we might be with us and it was. This is an interview with a twenty nine year. Old woman named liz conducted by detective samson and macklowe on april second nineteen thousand nine hundred nine. It's one of the few interviews on file with people in vons life and it seems like it's an important one for anyone trying to understand her personality and lifestyle. According to liz. Yvonne was a lot more complicated and she apparently seemed to some people. Yes she had her wild side but she also wanted to make jehovah's witness parents proud and so that's how she met liz. Liz was a member of the same church could started bible. Study to help food trying to give remind fun traffic train street out and time and having kids and really needs mr von in november of nineteen ninety-seven for eight months and she's francine and during that time is when she would confide in. The high. schools are on wednesday night at clock and offering. Liz von mostly talked about her relationship with eric. Eric even joined their study session a few times he wanted to marry. She told him she would marry him is. He wanted the same thing as she wanted him street. Now because i have to rematch halloween. She wanted him to study the bible also and during that time she wanted to quit smoking free for him and feeling chinese jews his rank and she would hinge due to liz also told similar accounts of yvonne and eric's relationship that we had heard before he in the past that he's very temper and to be clear. We've tried to reach out to eric. Multiple times through different means and so far had no luck. So the only information we have about. Eric and yvonne is what others have said. Liz also said yvonne told her stories that really say a lot about who yvonne was could not believe. These things happen. Two point one time she. She's been away in play towards the evening and she said she told me that tall black putting into jewelry in his pocket and says she went more severe. Get outta here down as you're afraid of. She said if you don't let somebody knows that You're not afraid of them and to confront that. She will come back tonight just winter. All she hasn't show you remember. She said command from down the street and she and this isn't the first time that we heard that he was fearless. Maybe to a fault fan. She hurt somebody to storms. Stole part your cigarettes. And most of her. And i'm like sitting story. He's interested and things have stories. I it just seemed odd. Asssociation your i guess you could come complaint that all the time about you know being afraid that he was coming in and kill. You might definite shocking. I thought that this tidbit was interesting. Liz wondering why all these things would happen to yvonne. And then she said. While i guess it's her associations although liz never mentioned knowing that von hung out with shady people or specifically who any of the people were that she mentioned it seems like liz sensed the crowd yvonne ran with whom he wanted to tiny your. She feared laughing whatever despite tanya saying that she thought. Liz volmer close set. Her friendship with yvonne was pretty short lived after studying. They mostly lost touch eight months ago. Information what happened last year in nineteen ninety after that eight months. Liz said she saw von here and there but no catching up was. Didn't know much about yvonne's personal life. Besides eric detectives even asked her about david and she didn't know much at all. I hadn't talked to her. She would express the concern. You might have been different like you said. She didn't expressing concern. She seemed happy. So liz lost touch with von. Which makes it interesting to me. That tanya yvonne's mother named liz as her daughter's best friend clearly even though tanya still saw off time she didn't know much about what was going on with her daughter and everything i do for. My cats is rooted in love even when they're testing patients. I always want what's best for them. And that's why i'm always late to work because i don't want to move them when we're in bed and love is also keeping tabs on my cats health because nothing is more important than their health and wellbeing. Because they're keep me happy. And that's why i use pretty litter. Pretty litter has hands down. Been my favorite cat litter. I have ever had and i promise you. I have tried them all. It is lightweight dust free. And it's ultra absorbent crystals trap odor instantly and last up to a month. It is unreal. I wish i had pretty litter ten years ago and the best part is is that the litter changes colors to help detect early signs of potential illness including urinary tract infections and kidney issues my cats and i are literally obsessed with pretty litter and we will never go back. Love is putting your cats health. I with pretty litter. Do what i did and make the switch today by visiting pretty litter dot com and use promo code. Mia for twenty percent off your first order. That's pretty litter dot com promo code. M i a for twenty percent off pretty litter dot com. Promo code am i a hundred feet turn right north lincoln while they really are the streets while danny john and i wanted to see if we could find out what yvonne's life was like during those final. This danny are you. Pam i pam. I'm danny which allowed grab a chair. You sit down in the comfy chair. No no go ahead. One of the first things we did when we got to alliance was tracked down a woman named pam who had come up as someone yvonne was close with. However it's important to note that they did have a falling out about a year before yvonne steph over an incident. Were evonne quote. Beat the crap out of pam for stealing. her purse. Pam said was on drugs and it wasn't a proud moment and yet it appears. The police never interviewed pam. Either as a suspect yvonne's murder or as one of her closest friends. Are you surprised yet. Go on sorry of talk about moving. Sure i said how did her honors pam said she used to live next to yvonne's parents and you yvonne. Since she was a kid pam would have been in her forties when yvonne was murdered. So how long have you known her there. Having six seventy eight. So you're talking about next to where she grew up that her parents unicycle. Okay so and notre since if you knew her in the seventy she was born in seventy two while got away at pam seemed to know a lot of the things about von but evonne may be would have been uncomfortable telling liz strict jehovah's witness the lawn like being under house. Joe dad's child you shooting god life. She takes showers. She said i did to one. Chance insidious dirty little doubt fares watch. Tv yeah she did not like being remember. I had mentioned before that yvonne had told people that her dad had sexually abused her. Pam was one of those people yet people she said she was. She told you that he had people who she was looking at her. He would look at yes. She did trump for you. Talking about is his name sherman. I have tried multiple times to reach sherman and so far. I have not had any luck. John and danny asked pam if she was aware of yvonne soliciting herself for money and pam said she had only heard after the fact. But i'd never know you von. Do not live her. But there was some information. Pam did say she knew but she had trouble cops and she was dating a cop. This was the first time we had heard from someone that evonne had specifically told them she was seeing a cop covered. Tell me what. And i didn't wanna livni wished cop she so she was dating one willingly. Yes and you don't remember we've got how okay okay. She didn't tell and pam had more to safe. she had a feeder. She never gets old act this way. She's pregnant. She is worshipped prayed. And actually the last photos taken of yvonne in her home just a couple days before her murder she's wearing an oversized shirt with a horse. It that allegedly. She would only wear when she was pregnant but she doesn't look visibly pregnant even in her autopsy photos. But according to liz interview with mcclellan samson how yvonne looked didn't seem to change when she was pregnant votes today even pregnant and Janitor you cannot even tell you hsun kinda like come on in in february overdue. Couple weeks i think was yvonne pregnant for the record. The coroner's report doesn't mention anything one way or another about pregnancy. It only notes that her sexual organs were quote on remarkable. But coroners and cops do have a pretty cozy relationship. Sometimes which got pam thinking. What if she had been pregnant and the baby daddy was a cop. Maybe a cop who didn't want his wife to know he was having an affair or didn't want to have a baby and pay child support and she prayed tried to blackmail daddy. It was something that you could see her life blackmailing to get money to keep it. Quiet are usually the baby bad with a bit. They want to keep quiet. And even if yvonne wasn't pregnant that doesn't mean she didn't believe she was or less generously didn't claim to be even if she knew she wasn't i normally wouldn't jump to that thinking but even david said he knew yvonne to tell boyfriends that she was pregnant just to get what she wanted out of them. So is it possible. She was pregnant. Wasn't noted in the coroner report in effort to keep it secret or she told someone who is pregnant when she wasn't to shake down the supposed father at this point. Neither scenario seems to fetch to me especially the possibility of a shakedown attempt. Did she ever tell you about shaking people down. I knew that that's kind of something before. This is me on a call with david. Some months ago. I would tell people that she was pregnant and ask for money for an abortion. That's how she would send money to eric when he was genuine joint because he was in and so often and this actually affected david personally when he found out about his brandon on didn't honestly think she was pregnant and the shakedown scenario. Isn't just from david pam. It also allegedly came from the mouth of one of the detectives on yvonne's case as a detective who handled the case i was i was kinda surprised even bad. This is duane pullman again whom you've heard from earlier episodes. He's an award-winning investigative. Journalist from ohio. Dwayne spent years investigating events murder and actually met with detective. John leech at a restaurant during his investigation. According to duane this is what happened when they sat down. So you're at a restaurant and he just says this to you. Yeah in a in a sit down. I don't know what the hell we were at an eight. I was like this is really weird He he without any context. Just blurts out that some Or had gotten a hold of his wife. I don't use that term. He did a hold of his wife to try to shake to try to blackmail. Jacob down and i said no else. Could that be because you had done that. According to people. I talked to before hail just wanted to let you know that we now have a confidential and anonymous tip line if you have information about the murder of yvonne lane and you don't want to share your name please call eight eight eight eight six three nine five five zero and leave a message again if you have any information about the murder of yvonne lane even if you think it's nothing please call eight eight eight six three nine five zero. It is confidential and anonymous and does not go to. The police goes directly to us. John danny and myself. We haven't talked much about detective. John leech but i mentioned him. When describing the crime scene detective leach was at the murder scene with detectives muck low and samson and was with them when they conducted some key interviews including the one that led to joe wilkes confession. And if you're wondering who. The cop was that george hale said. He identified leaving vonts house the morning of her murder. We don't know for sure. But george said he identified a cop who looked just like leach in the lineup. He was given and because of this detective. Leach was always interesting to duane saying that. That lee had anything to do with this. I want you to be clear on that. I have landing on probably not by you know it did kind of project a motive for covering up things and trying to make it go away. That's what i took away from all that. I had speculated earlier in the season that based on the amount of corruption in the alliance police department. It was possible. The cops had a reason to cover up her murder but now is even more of a motive to make away. Besides the potential drug connection to the cops and her sleeping with them was yvonne shaking. Someone down was it a cop. Did that cop kill her or did he cover it up for another cop either at the crime scene with the coroner or both so many questions. I asked david about all of this. Like he mentioned. He knew about the shakedowns while they were dating but there was a lot about yvonne. He didn't learn until after she died. So did you know about a van dancing. She told me this dance before. Yeah and then. I guess she was going to too little clubs or something like that kind of on the side after her night already broken up. It's like three phases that i know of her life. You know what i mean. Is that like shocking. To you are you like are we. Maybe now you've processed it but was this like who the hell was this person. I was dating then. David told me something we had never heard before she was going through a convention and then later that's whenever i found out that that was like a high end call girl. David said she'd ask him to drive her to the train station to go to neighboring states indiana illinois west virginia. He wasn't really sure but it was to work at conventions. What did you think she was doing when she was going to the conventions. She said something that she got a office job and she was going to convention for something. I i don't i don't recall what it was but to be honest it was only half paying attention so it was even talking about her job. Even whenever she picked up the job she never stayed anywhere for very long. Because something always come up with kids. It's just so bizarre. it's really. She had so many secrets how she kept everything straight. I don't know how she kept her life in them Y'all it's the summer and for me. That means shaving more often. 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Just go to athena club dot com and use promo code. Mia that's eight hundred. H. e. n. a. c. l. u. b. dot com with promo code. Mia for twenty percent off. Do you ever feel like you're being followed around the internet. Maybe advertisers know a bit too much about you. Well our new sponsor ip vanish. Vpn is here to help you. Take back your privacy and help become annonymous on the internet with ip vanish. You can use a vpn which is a virtual private network on your computers tablets phones even things like your fire stick when you're streaming media when you use a vpn all your data is encrypted what you're reading what you're searching what you're watching. Whatever it is you're doing and that's important because what you do on. The internet is no one else's business but yours. So now you can be anonymous with ip vanish vpn for listeners of this show i vanish is offering an incredible sixty five percent off. 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It's important to note that if she was a dancer or an escort or a sex worker that just adds more people to the mix of potential suspects and the more we investigate the more people we find saying. These rumors were true. And that broadens the suspect pool which becomes even larger if yvonne was traveling to other states so with things starting to get messier than we expected. We decided to try another person who may know what was going on. In yvonne's life yes so has. Has anybody talked to you about avante in the last few years warner sister london bic. He's the uncle of eric who is allegedly. The father of three of yvonne's kids your sisters. Linda linda linda's yourself okay. So you knew on pretty well. Then decent yeah. She seems like a complicated person. She was in a lifestyle that apparently was predominantly white. Oh houston to define a in. My mama's are all sweet sisters and stuff always used to. That will be starve side. He or she was a brand yarn. I try to be the report shoes. My nephews crawl along on again and some dark side So when you say that she had a dark side. I mean we hear a lot of things. But what are you. What what are you referring to was. She which she pick fights between people and stuff like that. Yeah yeah kinda manipulative. Sometimes yeah wishing vic mention yvonne starting fights between him and his sister linda to get a rise out of linda in order to manipulate situations to get what she wanted and sister. out of. man's is he also said she was always on pills like jeremy had mentioned and again. I only bring that up not to shame anyone's use or addictions but to note the potential drug connection and her state of mind and speaking of her state of mind. We asked bic about something we heard she had come to. You saying she'd pissed off the wrong person at around that same winter. Your mom's house looking for you is what it was told us because she was in some kind of trouble and she was warning your hell and said that she had fucked with the wrong person mantle yvonne supposedly sought out vic for help but vic says yvonne never found him and his mom told him about this incident. He doesn't remember it however the story does fit into what we heard from jeremy that she was frantic just a few days before she was murdered. So did she pick someone off. And if so who so one other thing that we hear and this is true or not but that she was involved with some number of police officers accompanying two three four. Whatever it was and that would shake them down. Essentially like maybe they were married and then she would shake down south. Wanna tell your wife or something. Old awesome one. Yeah you wouldn't put it past her at that time. Okay okay. did you hear that. She involved with a lot of men for money. I i can only cockburn different times. I drive your lines here. I'd see her station waving car. I see you're on your moral time talking to a policeman. Okay were they pull her over. She willingly just pulling over and talk to them runs. You know any of those cops names that she was friends with other one okay. She started no so she didn't say anything about being romantically or sexually involved with over. But goals you yes bar. We're going to beat this cops name for now since we've heard his name come up a few times and plan to look deeper when it happened when he first got win shoes dead. You think david in the place some place. We are going to be so. That's why we want to talk to you because we knew this was true to the she came to your mom almost desperate looking for you. Say who would have been that bad at her. Based on everything we heard testimony through interviews and police records. No one wants said. david was mad at yvonne. Forever had been nad or violent with her. Even sherman in court so they had a good relationship. I'm remember even the child support agents said everything seemed fine with them so who could have been so mad at von that. They nearly decapitated her through a tv on her after. She was already brutalized and dead. All of this with her children at home coming up next time. I speak with renowned major case. Detective karen smith who is a forensic expert and she takes a look at the crime. Scene photos the autopsy all of the evidence and she has some new thoughts to add on this decades old case as to who could have killed new von lane. Y'all if you like this show fleas consider joining the unjust and unsolved patron. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please please. Rate emmer view the more reviews the more attention and the more likely. We're going to get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder alliance is produced and reported by. Meet maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Erin case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murderer. An alliance on twitter and instagram at murder underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com a.

yvonne liz pam eric bob david Liz evonne tanya Pam David regan Yvonne mr jacobs david thorne yvonne lane von macklowe mr von Liz von
11: The Others

Murder In Alliance

42:48 min | 3 months ago

11: The Others

"Hey all before we get to the show. I just wanted to let you know that before. Making this podcast. Some of you might know that. I hosted a six part documentary series for oxygen about the disappearance of maura. Murray a college student who vanished under incredibly bizarre circumstances in two thousand four. Our sister podcast true crime. Obsessed is doing a live show covering this documentary out the wilbur theatre in boston. On saturday july thirty first at seven pm. I will be there joining them. Onstage for this show along with fellow podcasters him and lance of the missing mary podcast. So if y'all don't know true crime obsess. Every week hosts patrick and jillian recap true crime documentaries with humor sas and a ton of heart and they put on an insanely good live show we version of this live show in brooklyn before the pandemic and i could say it was hilarious wild and so much fun we would love for you to come and see us for tickets you can go to true. Crime obsessed dot com and click on the see us live link or just click the link in the show notes and we hope to see y'all there previously on murder in alliance. I'm curious why is you know so many times you never asked about that. I wondered about his shooting. Flies off sees aged three search through. Listen seabrook's mass Anger and rage. Very people scared me. He scared me can't supposedly she told. Mother's youngest child you know in terms of the police force. My god i had eight or nine names of officers who potential sexual partners destroy guy was put up to it so if he gets caught he can blackmail the cops given what we know about yvonne is. I'm pretty sure people didn't want a lot of that stuff flying down. This is murderer in alliance an active investigation into who killed a von lane. I'm mighty freeling After the jury came back in two thousand with a guilty verdict against david thorne his grandfather tried to sound calm quote. The truth will come out sooner or later. He told his grandson as guards. Let him away to prison. But david cosco's claim was a facade outside. The courtroom kosciusko started to shake with anger. His face went red when he saw detective. Lloyd budd samson one of the cops who had condemned for life. 'cause this go told akron beacon journal reporter quote there's the one who made a fool out of himself on the stand and they believed him. I can't ask kosciusko his thoughts because he died in two thousand fifteen but to me. It seems like he wanted to have david's back but he knew deep down that it was going to take a lot more than just the truth to free him and twenty two years later. I think he's right. If david is ever going to be released from prison it won't be because his supporters proved he didn't kill his ex-girlfriend von lane. It'll be because we figure out who actually did. When i met up in ohio with john and danny wexler proclaim justice earlier this year. One of the first things we set out to do was to try to rule in or out people of interest. We didn't start with joe right away although he is the number one person because his story has changed so many times. It's hard to know what to believe. We decided to gather as much information about the case and joe's claims as possible before we try to talk to him plus the warden at joe's prison denied visitation request. So speaking with joe was going to be a lot harder than we expected. That's why we started with rose. More and chris campbell. Allegedly the only people who joe told kim's going to murder someone that night but as you heard last episode we didn't get very far so we moved onto the others on the list. Starting with jim the neighbor who was allegedly spying on yvonne. Come over after dark and sit on the porch swing with them. He and his clothing latch. George hells description jim. It's a fact that he was there at five thirty. He says yeah. I was talking to her about the dogs. A police wrote that and their notes. We know he was the last person to see. her gym. Was the last known person to see von live just before her murder around five thirty. Pm the coroner's window for ten of death was sometime after seven pm. March thirty i remember. He said he went over to see the puppies that he's almost selling although it's unclear if he ever did go inside the house to see them or not after that. Jim never had a particularly solid alibi. He said he went on a bike. Ride after leaving a bonds house then. He said he was at work by ten pm. Was he actually on a bike ride at the time of her murder. That would have been hard to confirm back in nineteen ninety nine and it's pretty much impossible now which leaves quite a gap of time five thirty pm to ten pm on accounted for and there's also vinnie yvonne's four year olds saying josh jeremy or jimmy pushed mommy and the kids new jim since he was their neighbor and they were always running in and out of his yard. Jim was never looked into as a possible suspect by detectives. William glow or loyd samson yet it does seem they found him interesting enough that they wanted to eliminate him at some point. because i'm may fourth that year a month after the murder. Jim was fingerprinted and his print was compared to the one found on the knife blade from the knife that matched yvonne's kitchen set the one that was found down the street. Not the lock blade. That joe later said was the murder weapon. The print didn't match jim however it begs the question. Did anyone think. Jim might have been involved if the police went as far as to fingerprint him. It's not like they were finger printing everyone. I've seen the list. Some people closest to yvonne were never printed blake. Fred and linda but jim the supposedly creepy neighbor who was allegedly spying on her and the last known person to see yvonne alive was so after everything we'd learned about jim. We figured it was time to talk to him was. Yeah fortunately jim was easy to find. He still living in the same house. The one that touches yvonne's yard of nine sixteen divine. Did you know that cats are carnivores that eat lots of meat. And if you didn't know leading cat. Food brands are often filled with fillers grains and very little protein. That's why i switched to cap person cap food. It's everything my needs to stay. Happy and healthy. High-quality high protein meals delivered right to my door. my cats absolutely love be mackerel and bream wet food. They went crazy for it. And you know what your cats will to order your starter box today because cat person has arranged for my listeners to get exclusive offer of nearly fifty percent off it's delivered right to your door so you'll never have to run out or have to settle for what a store has. That stuff is candy for cats. And it's terrible. Cat person offers a thirty day. Money back guarantee on your custom plan. Your cat doesn't love cat person. No questions asked. But i highly doubt that they won't you and your cat are going to love cat person as much as we do. Go to cap person. Dot com slash. Mia and use code m a to save nearly fifty percent on your starter. Box with free shipping. That's cat person. Dot com slash. Mia code mia to get nearly fifty percent off your starter box with free shipping. Cat person dot com slash. M i a code m i a. When we first went over to jim's house his wife answered vani wiig losers job. We work with the innocence project. Austin tacky asked her to speak with her husband jamming. We were hoping we could speak to him. Encounter was all. That's okay no i. Yeah i could leave korn. Tell me you were here. Oh we could do the morning to that would be fine. I'll let yeah thank you take. Yeah so we tried him in the morning can make you answer the door as john. And danny walkaway. Yes sir. i don't know if you if your wife told you who we are but we were just hoping for just a few minutes. Tell him who they are. And that they're reinvestigating. von lane. Murder came here years ago. I talk to her. And i feel that with dashes advice. I mean that was like twenty years ago. That price on. He's talking about soon coming to see him almost two decades ago. I really wanna talk about it any further than that okay. He was to me. I thought she was a nice person. And i don't you know if a nice neighbor. We know the people seem to get along with her here and so beyond that point. I don't wanna talk about it. It's like it was. I was upset about it at the time. Yeah sure and you know she was on was nice to me. And that's all. I know one of the toughest things is that i think that lady that came to visit you when they give information just because they said this this this or this we have to kind of validated. Like i thought that enough. I i get that and look. Thanks for sharing this with us we. If we didn't at least beat to you we would have failed in doing what we're trying to do which is trying say who was there who could possibly know something if david is where he belongs davis where he belongs but we're going to give him a shot and see if there's credible information that maybe they got it wrong. The police talk to me. They heading talked to everybody. They didn't though because the neighbors leaf spoken to that still her here. This big tool. That's that was concerning to us is that why would they have only spoken to a select few says again that he doesn't wanna talk. But danny and john keep going this. She had puppies or something at the time he had puppies at the time. And that you helping with the kids at all. Because i read something about preston was in your tree or something. President clinton my intent and talk. And i told her he climbed my intent. And because i was real worried about inclement my intent and despite not wanting to talk jim keeps going the only i can tell you was that day and and this is the most bizarre thing is it was so doggone quiet i mean it's like there is no cars going down the street. I didn't see anybody walking the streets. And that's what strikes me strange why you would think that it was a nice beautiful spring day. No cars nothing nothing. I didn't see anything. I i'm kind of like the non-observant of the non-observant closed my curtains at night. I know i worked midnight shift at that time so i really don't you know don't know much of anything went on over there like i said i felt bad about it. I really don't want to talk about the point. I because i work third shift and that's pretty much i'm like i'm so doggone tired you know the you know i really don't know what's going on because i like i went to work and then next day i not diagnose an officer that lived near here in one of these logs close. I'm to get into all that. I mean like i said this is the end of this conversation. I mean i feel like. I've shared enough with. Yeah i just wanna. I don't wanna think about it any further. I don't want to relive this. I i wanna just put it behind me. And she's a nice person. I just wanted to. Yeah and we won't bother you anymore after this but one thing that did come up in the report. Suzette somebody had said that either you or another neighbor had viewed her with binoculars looking into her house. Why would i mean. I was like anonymous over the not. Observant never heard that. Which if we believe sue. That's not true. She told us she asked him about it all those years ago and at the time he blamed his neighbor. Another alliance cop you got family in law enforcement right. Yes mr jenkins's a captain there. And i know that sometimes flaw. Hey you guys have great day. Okay thank you. Jim and i was surprised. You open the door of his all he was going to say we were walking but he probably thought yeah sure nervous. Yeah he was a nervous. Falker bud talk about them to the porch. You got a little bit out of him. Jim didn't give us anything particularly useful from that brief interaction but just seeing him and the kind of person he was helped us form an opinion. He didn't jump out to us as an obvious suspect sure. Maybe he's jittery and allegedly peoper. But the reason i keep bringing up how brutal crime scene was is because whoever did this had an incredible amount of rage and anger towards yvan someone who is likely known to have a violent history and jim doesn't have any criminal history at all but if he had nothing to hide why not talk to john. Danny who are trying to find out the truth. What would you not want an offer anything that you have right. Why would you not. My feeling is that. And they called jenkins remember. Jenkins is his brother-in-law captain at the alliance police department. And the he was encouraged. Just don't even talk to him. Yeah that's what i'm thinking too. We're there yesterday because every time we'd go reference police. He would anything to do with peace police tj family. That's that was shut it down. Yeah i feel like that's his nothing that that's probably what jake installed as you can only get yourself jammed up against some way if you talk to them which is honestly good advice so we moved jim to the bottom of the list for now and went on to our next best person of interest. Hi how are you. We're looking for. Jeremy live here he does not okay he did. Okay are you. Do you know him very roughly. Okay do you have any idea where he moved to. Okay chris campbell. Jeremy seemed like he was going to be hard to find yellow. What she did. Look down medicine now if you remember. Jeremy was the boyfriend of linda. Mclaughlin and linda was the mother of air cameron. Who was the father of allegedly. At least three of yvonne's children those kids include vinnie. The one who has special needs and lived with linda rather than yvonne. There was tension between the two women because while linda took care of any events allegedly keeping the social security checks. She was getting that were meant to pay for vs care. Now i know this is a complicated cast but the gist is that jeremy new vinnie very well and took care of him was something like a grandfather. Vinnie during this time. Hi how are you good jerry jerry. He's in his name of your brother. Jerry ha the woman we found at this address. Is jeremy sister who said she had not seen him in three years. Rather do beef up. I've tried to help. He lived here. And i knew there was something wrong drugs. He's not doing that. I'm not gonna be the hunter gatherer. Yeah and that was the last time you saw. Wow flipped my throat. Did you ever know of him. Being violent okay was on a weird statement to make because that's exactly how the young girl was killed through rule. That was the drugs talking. Sounds like he's probably burned a few bridges over the years. Okay park just let their yep obviously out. Yeah yeah well thank you for your time. If he surfaces. We just put alert out to jeremy. Had all these guys we greatly. Okay thank you very much. Appreciate y'all's time hit. Every address be had for jeremy. He wasn't at any but there were two phone numbers from one wasn't him and the other looked like it was wrong like it was fake but we tried it anyway yes. I'm trying to reach jeremy. Patty is this jeremy. Have any free time to talk with us. shake up on pathway. Okay what's your address. Fake numbers one three four holy shit. We found god. We found jeremy living in akron. Ohio in a dilapidated house on a dirt road behind a u. Haul facility. jeremy how are you. Danny had a plastic bag in his hand. And jeremy asked what was in it only got chicken noodle soup and nickerson gatorade one. So i'm john and that's danny. Anyways justice were innocence project. And we've been asked to look into this case david still in britain. He is yeah. He's in for life. John danny explained as usual that they're looking into david's case to find out if he's actually innocent or not. We came up from austin yesterday and Just you know talking to folks who knew everybody at the time. You can't make him out. Jeremy said yvonne with his best friend. Now remember we knew. They were close if go goto. Linda's often to see vinnie. Who is living with linda. And jeremy germy is also interesting. Because if you remember preston. Yvonne son said whoever killed his mom new vinny because vinnie was taken care of. He'd been dressed as though someone had started getting him ready for the day and according to all accounts vinnie. The four year old with special needs could not dress himself and he normally slept in his diaper which preston said he was in when he went to bed and to us. Jeremy seemed like a really good person of interest remember. Linda told sue. Jeremy was really upset. Yvonne had just taken vinnie back days before her murder and rage could be there. I should know though. Jeremy is not well. He's dying of cancer and honestly reluctantly. Caught him when we did. Because based on his age he sixty four and his advanced condition. This could be the last time anyone speaks to him about yvonne or the case. So tell me about avant i mean. We came close to the kid remember. Jeremy and eric's linda were taking care of vinnie. The penal you have thirteen of people. How did you know or i mean. How did you meet her. Earlier was your best friend monitors in with yet one one kid he to resume now two things. If you were able to make that out. He called linda his nurse and during this conversation we actually found out that jeremy wasn't exactly her boyfriend per se. Linda was his caretaker. His nurse and her husband was actually jeremy's best friend but alas linda and jeremy had a relationship and jeremy was there almost every day despite the marriage and friendship so anyway he also said when yvonne brought vinnie over the first time vinnie took right to him who friendship based on where you heard. Jaw your time together to the inside note. Germany made very clear that he and yvonne had a platonic relationship and never anything sexual contrary man not wages involved in fact. He said he had only been her house two times both times with linda. German von would only hang out at linda's house usually at the kitchen table talking and doing drugs club about his and would sit down at the table. House on the mode and tokyo thinks job you c with lung pass out food. She just popping build. We spoke yeah. So where would you get the drugs from. Did she have somebody that she would get drugs from that on a legally couldn't make that out. Jeremy said he got his drugs legally from the va. Jeremy was a veteran. Like the psychic mentioned. Do you know who was. She was getting drugs from john. And danny returning to see if there was a connection to the cops and the drug scene then. They asked jeremy if the police ever questioned him. So even though there's no record of it. According to jeremy they did look into him in fact his prince work also collected on april twentieth year of the murder and tested against the same kitchen. Knife gyms were. It wasn't a match and if the police were doing their job they would have also checked his alibi. Remember they told the psychic. Jeremy didn't have an alibi but jeremy said he was working at mcdonalds in hart bill that night. Hart bill is about twenty minutes from alliance so if you did kill von germy would have had to leave work during his shift drive twenty minutes to her house kill. Her dress vinnie and drive back. He would have probably been gone from work for at least over an hour and someone would have noticed. According to jeremy they checked his time cards and they showed up at mcdonald's that day and i would guess if he really didn't have an alibi they would've looked into him more. And when moore thing jeremy defeating dr lynda actually said she picked him up that night in fact it seems like jeremy still doesn't drive his sister told us she'd see him walking around town everywhere so there are some questions. We do have twenty two years later about his alibi. We can't confirm it and we don't know the exact hours and considering there's no exact time of death for yvonne. It is plausible. Jeremy could have left work at midnight. Killed her after sure. Time of death was only given as some time after seven pm. So john and danny ask jeremy straight up. Were there that night. Your dna would not be on her clothes at all had no involvement whatsoever. Okay yeah and from talking to him. He seemed to really care about yvonne a lot. Obviously this is personal above the emotional effect. The vence debt hatem you. Here's somebody that can talk to talk to me and be point gonna be open We'll if on them. Did you ever confide in you. That she felt like she might upset. Somebody could could hurt her with anybody yet from it. One on to back out Around Jeremy talked about how she was confident composed person but he noticed in her last days she changed. Jeremy said four days before the murder. She came to linda's house and was in a rush. He said that was unusual. It was wrong. He said she was frantic. Dropping the kids off. She told him she was going to an appointment. Jeremy figured he talked to her about it later. But that never happened. Move your last encounter with while that's why mean. You could cook something you go to her funeral. You're seeing the kids again sorted to lead you back to these other people i can tell but we're trying to figure out what happened and i know that someone as close as you had a million thoughts. You're wondering who could have done this to her. Norton has publicly said before she passed away. They didn't do this. Maybe didn't do me twenty years later. We think happened in life arthur. Some breathing i alive. Which will jeremy. We appreciate your time very much. And yeah you sure did and you got are. There are information abby crowd. Yeah y'all i've said it before and i'll say it again as the weather gets warmer. The last thing i want to do is to be sweating in my kitchen cooking over a hot stove or oven. But i don't always want to order take out. It's expensive so that's why i am. Obsessed with daily harvest. Daily harvest delivers delicious bowls. Flat bread smoothies and more all built on our ganic fruits and vegetables. Bright to your door. It takes literally minutes to prepare. And i love that the food. I'm eating is actually good for me right now. In the summer. I am obsessed with their smoothies. I love the mango and papaya smoothie. They've smoothies with kale and carrots. They are all healthy. Fresh organic fruits and vegetables. Daily harvest is all about leaving the earth and a better place than they found it and this is why i love them. They focus on increasing bio-diversity investing in organic farming practices reducing food waste and even prioritizing recyclable and compostable packaging. Stay cool calm and collected during the summer heat. Go to daily harvest dot com and enter code maggie to get twenty five dollars off your first fox. That's code maggie. For twenty five dollars off your first box at daily harvest dot com daily harvest dot com this summer. Get the most out of your travels abroad by learning the language of your destination with babble. The number one selling language learning app from in restaurants or asking for directions to gaining deeper understanding of the culture babble makes the whole process of learning a new language addictive fun and easy with bite-size lessons. You can actually use in the real world. Babble is a can't miss travel essential. Y'all i have been trying to learn spanish for over a year now. i have had a private tutor. But you know what. I supplemented with babble. And i like it better than any other program i have used and i am not kidding. I have used them all a love babbel because it is practical. They design courses with real world conversations. In mind things will get to us in every day life other language. Learning apps use a for their lesson plans but babbel's lessons were created by over a hundred language experts and they have fourteen different languages. You can choose from right now when you purchase a three month babble subscription you'll get an additional three months free that six months for the price of three just go to babble dot com and use promo code maggie. That's be a bb l. Dot com code maggie for an extra three months free to learn any language that your heart desires we left. Jeremy feeling convinced he didn't do it which surprised us. He seemed like a really strong possibility. For starters germy had a record that included assault his own sister that he threatened to slit her throat the precise way yvonne with kilts and he admitted to us he was incredibly fucked up back then so he could have snapped for but mostly what we've heard about. Jeremy is that when he's sober. He's a softy and wouldn't fight anyone even a sister. He threatened said the threats he made to her for just the drugs so she never knew him to actually be violent. It seemed that if he done it in a drugged up rage he'd have trouble dealing with it emotionally when sober and frankly we think he would've talked and what we can tell from. Speaking to him. He really cared for yvonne and had no motive to kill her shirley speculated before maybe custody of vinnie but after talking to him he knew he and linda wouldn't get custody of vinnie. Anyway the children went to vence parents. Tonia and sherman. After she died and seemed to us he cared for yvonne outside of vinnie and wouldn't want her dead but he did confirm for us a possible connection like we had heard from so many people before the police could have been involved and that leads us to a tip that we got as soon as we landed in ohio anything. What's like the most recent thing that you've come across or heard a okay. What about that. Tell me okay. Su takes out to the lobby. Alliance is a small town. As i've mentioned before so you can never be too careful where you're talking. And she tells us what happened messenger. I saw this name. Come up. And i thought i recognized that last name. This is texted me every message me in the afternoon saw at about seven o'clock and he talked to me like almost. She got a random message on facebook. Literally the day we arrived in alliance says hello. Susan my name anyhow. I just watched the story about your von that you was in. I know you have no idea who i am but i have some interesting things that we learned amounts murder through the years. Please please please do not say a word about this until i had the opportunity to tell you what i know. I've met the killer. And i know where he is and i suspect still killing and yes. He's a sue offered to john. Danny speak to the man. As i mentioned sue or i doing interviews at this point is just too risky. We need the licensed professionals to do it for the courts to be. Okay with the information. Would you be willing to tell them what you know. Also let me know what works for you that way. If he doesn't wanna talk to you guys. I haven't opening to get back in there. He said sorry. I can't do that way too much. Involved in at risk after that he pretty much shut now but don't he said don't tell anybody saw afraid of you guys show up. He's not he's gonna shut down what he wants. He wants to share right. The reached out right this. He's holding if it's valentine's holding this so we decided to track him down and find out he knows fortunately he told su he works thirty. Hit the record. We found him at a big warehouse in alliance and since alone. I to ease his mind he also specifically told her didn't wanna talk to john and danny is there can. I have him. Won't keeping along. Well you know what i pictured at all. We'll call this guy. Kevin and i'm changing his voice for privacy kevin said he's a lifelong alliance resonant and went to high school with iran then. Kevin invites sue to talk in private. Oh can they come either. John and danny walk in. I don't goosey that. Don't have a clear. Nice pitcher max. You guys have got to understand what's needed by that unfocused. Should i'm done. We're not gonna find that you're talking. Promise you he told us a long story about a former cop and alliance. He thought was murdering his children. And even longer story short. We tracked it down and yes this former cop had a few of his kids die very young but nothing seemed particularly odd to us but one thing is clear people in this town. Do not trust the cops. What made you tie this into. I've got stories on the apd known to be. Did you hear like being around alliances as long as you have you hear. Rumor of environ Being in the sex word into okay and police availing themselves services. You never heard the cops would go pay for not specifically most allies residents will tell you right outta gave you when i tell you alive cops picks you did they come to your house for domestic rescue. It hit on her as the way they are. The base there generally are not on not saying every one of them but the hogwarts and that's why the no element with you. If in some of the biggest find out. I'm talking to you about anything like that. If at best case my dog is souped up and crooked chain or doria good evening question remember. Doria was the new chief of police. At the time of yvonne's murder after chief black was fired for stealing drugs. Guns and money i think of it. I was curious what was sure hope. It is odd pitcher who always questionable whenever a chief of police brings a date to crime scene. A more senior that clearly. It's not just in our heads there. Something up with the alliance cops but did they actually have anything to do with evan's murder. We still couldn't shake the psychic tapes. And detectives william macklowe and bud samson bringing up the possibility that it was one of their own so it was finally time to speak with some people who may actually know what was going on anyone's life coming up next time on murder in alliance shoot. Come to you saying. She'd pissed off the wrong person. She had so many secrets. It's like three phases. That i know of her life she was dating aqap cop said that she was pregnant and she trying to on the daddy. I knew that she would tell people that she was pregnant. And ask for money for an abortion. That's how she would send money to eric when he was in the joint chanted belliar senior and she would shake him down south to tell your wife or something in some dark side to what about this sex tape. That's who said you filmed. I don't know how everything stream y'all if you like this show. Please consider joining the unjust. An unsolved patriotic. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a thank you and please lease rate. 'em review the more reviews the more attention and the more likely we're going to get tips and leads. The right ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by need maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder an alliance dot com. You can find murderer alliance on twitter and instagram at murderer underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust and unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder and alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com.

yvonne jeremy jim Jeremy vinnie linda joe von lane Jim john kosciusko david wilbur theatre chris campbell freeling david thorne david cosco Lloyd budd samson danny wexler
Murder in Alliance /// Part 2 /// 521

True Crime Garage

58:42 min | Last month

Murder in Alliance /// Part 2 /// 521

"Many already have but if you have not. you're going to want to check out ashley. Homestore bill on a promise of style selection and unmatched value. Ashley homestore is the number one furniture and mattress retailer and north america offering everything from decor and accessories to outdoor furniture. And even your next perfect mattress ashley. Homestore provides products designed to last at affordable prices. So you can trust. You're getting the best deal without sacrificing quality. Visit a local ashley home store near you or shop online today ashley. Homestore dot com. Welcome to true graham garage wherever you are. Whatever you're doing thanks for listening. I'm your host nick and with me as always as a man who gave a cookie so he got you a cookie. Here is the captain. He gave me cookie. It got you cookie. You gave me cookie cookie. It's good to be seen good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for tunnel france today. We are still sipping on green slush made by wiley roots brewing company tall cans in the air. Green slush has an ab via four point six percent. And it's a sour ale with watermelon. Drink mix. don't ask what that means. Just enjoy garage grade. Four and five bottle caps and who is raising those tall cans in the air with me. Well it some of our good friends right here. I up and captain you alight this one. We have a cheers to joe. Lean from peyton manning's favourite city omaha nebraska and the big shots a laura from salem oregon. Next up we have a double cheers to scott. Lacy drinking it up and madison. Indiana and a big shout to christina in utica new york next. We have a big cheers. Ron swanson please and thank you. That goes out to diane in san francisco and last but certainly not least. We have branding from a dry county in arkansas. Everyone we just mentioned. They helped us out with this week's spear funding way. Thank you yeah. Vw double r. u. n. Beer ron getcha some get some more to cram garage by going to our website graham grams dot com and signing up for our bonus. Show called off the record if you nasty. Dan is enough business. All right. everybody gathered around. Grab a chair. Grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. July fourteenth nineteen ninety nine wednesday. Thirteen nine hours. My name is detective. Bud samson. we're in the run-up police department interview room along with me is detective way muck low and detective john leitch of the alliance police department. Also in rome is joseph satiny took advantage of me and reunion. Some are times that third. Where was her body. Found the living room so when you walk up the stairs from the entry room. She's right there at the top of the stairs so if everything is as it should be. We have a baby up the next floor up in her room. We have two of the children locked in their rooms for the night. And then we have vani who may have been in a crab or in a sleeping situation or may have been roaming the house when whoever came and we don't have any sign of forced entry so either this person had access to the home or the door was unlocked or given new the individual and invited them in the way that things were found inside the residents almost would give the appearance that someone was there with her and things were going smoothly up into the point of her murder. There is at the dining room table or one of the tables. Almost has the appearance that people may have been sitting there discussing something or charon cigarettes. Yeah and then we have. We have the this is a very interesting angle of this case to is that the killer either knew or felt comfortable enough that either a none of the children would be able to identify them or be. None of the children's saw what they did and left all the children unharmed and actually not only were they unharmed but the the other thinking is that vinnie always slept in his diaper in vinnie was fully dressed when he was found he was not covered in blood assuming if he was crawling around and found his mom he'd be covered in blood. He was fully dressed which he cannot do himself again. He has a severe disability. Could non dress himself so the thinking has always been that somebody took care of and dressed vinnie. So not only did they not harm the children but took care of one of the children which is yes a possibility one and but to could be happenstance that for whatever reason he was dressed still dressed from from the nike could've been and just never made it to her body to get you know i mean but that's the thing to really there. Was you know stress a lot. In the season the crime scene in how how brutal it is and that is a hundred percent not for any kind of shock value. It is because the crime scene is so important to who did this. I mean when you look at it. It is so gruesome and bloody and there is overkill. I mean the tv was thrown on top of her A dresser and a tv were thrown on top of her after. This person decapitated her. Anyone who's looked at it said well wasn't a hit. This looks personal. This is overkill environment. Yeah so that's why you know. I talk a lot about the crime scene because it looks so personal so it's and then when you think about that if you think okay. This is someone who knew her. They were angry at her. Maybe was a father of one of the kids. Maybe this person did no vinnie really well. So a lot of her immediate family were looked into and surprise. A lot of them had reason to kill her. Her dad was allegedly sexually abusing her and her sisters for years and she thought that he was doing it to her kids to you know. Her mother-in-law hated her because she was taking the welfare checks from vinnie in. The mother-in-law was taking care of her. So when you look at this crime scene it does not look like someone was hired to kill her. It looks like somebody who knew her did this and took care of any on their way out. Will they even suspected david's girlfriend for awhile right his. Yes because you have this situation where day in this guy. Now he's having a baby with his ex was kind of an odd situation. Yes and we get into amy in coming episodes but you know amy's interesting because her in yvonne hated each other. Obviously they're both in love with the same guy and there's kids involved but the thing is always been is. Amy would actually be the last person that was able to get into vons house. Because it's yvonne even saw amy at her doorstep everyone who knew yvonne like she would have beat the shit out of amy immediately. She wasn't getting in the house so it's just really interesting. Amy of course had a motive but was she even be able to get in the house and then we go back to this whole we find out. She's a sex worker. That could be why. There's a lock on the door to lock the kids in so they don't walk out on something So did she have one of john's over that night. It there's just so many people and it's yes. Joe sounds convincing and yes. This could be what happened. But then when i look at the crime scene on i go no way. This was joe. This was someone. She was sleeping with Somebody that she already has a baby with. It wasn't joe higher does ahead. It's it's very confusing. Will there have been people that have said that the way that they found the crime scene as you said the tv thrown on top of her. What there is a bookshelf overturned as well as there was a tv on top of a dresser so the dresser in the tv were on top of her okay so somebody attempted to to probably in one thousand swoop. I imagined try to throw items tip them over on top of her at the same time. And some have speculated looked at might be somebody who's trying to make it. The crime scene have the appearance of a struggle to me. I look at that and say no. This is somebody that wanted to destroy this woman that slitting her throat was not good enough watching her expire. In just a matter of seconds on the floor there was not good enough. They had to take it a step further and throw these heavy items onto her body as it lie there lifeless already and you know we. We have a certain a certain understanding of and rightfully so descriptive way Of hate crime but one thing that gets lost sometimes in these murder cases is the individual that kills the victim. Nine times out of ten hates. The victim hates the victim to the point of destruction. For whatever reason something happened they feel wronged. They feel challenged or or any number of scenarios can play out but in that moment in the heat of the moment that individual hates the victim so much so that they want to kill them. They want to destroy them. And that's what i see when we're talking about this crime scene here that it was. Somebody was in such rage that they took this extra step. It was unnecessary to kill. You know because she's already dead. It was unnecessary to do any of these these further actions before leaving the home. Let's stay on. I witnesses because there was wasn't there another possible eyewitness. We talked about the children. We talked about the other eyewitness but there was another. I witnessed the saul. A man in the description sounds somewhat similar to to the to the other one just a little confused on on what time and where this falls into the time line of the thirty first and i. Yeah so this this guy very similar he was another neighborhood guy who again just went to the police and said hey look. I think i saw. This might be helpful. It was actually the night of the murder. He said around why light he was walking his dog. So who the hell knows what twilight means. He saw a man trying to get into the house. And that's really all we know. We know that the police also took him to a kind of relaxation therapy. That also took george to to try and get him to remember what they saw. George said it seems more like an interrogation kind of seemed like he was hooked up to a lie detector test so they did the same thing with this witness and nothing came of it on again. This was not given to the defense in in discovery. So this is another brady violation. What we do know about that night is she did have quite a few visitors. Her house was not this home that no one went to this quiet mom with kids. It was really a high trafficked home. You know her dad was there that day. We don't know where he was that evening We do know he puts himself there that day. We know that adds around five thirty. Her neighbor was there. He was someone who was seen with her. He said he went on a bike. Ride afterwards. you can't really account for that so that's already to people. We know were at her house that day that you know we don't know where they went afterwards at the time of the murder. According to joe he was there that evening. So was this guy. One of them was a different guy that the neighbor saw trying to get into the home around twilight it just raises so many questions over the eyewitnesses that are not connected to the family. They're just neighbors passer buyers. They're all putting these individuals well below six foot. Yeah so the yes. So both george hale and this other man to separate witnesses to neighbors don't know anybody involved in this case. Say the guy trying to get into the home or the guy leaving. The home is about five eight dark hair. Yeah i mean that wouldn't be joe either way assuming that you know that what they saw actually happened so george hale was on the stand for the post conviction hearing went back to court for the brady violation for george hale and on his cross is when he kind of came across as a week witness. I personally don't think george hale is the cross examination can always shake people and basically on the cross. The prosecution got him to say he just didn't know if the man was leaving her house or if he was just he he couldn't for sure say if he was leaving the house or not. I believe george. I've i've seen his interviews with you know reputable investigative reporters who have looked into this case. History has always been the same. And i do think he saw somebody leaving the house that morning whether it was the murderer whether it was someone who had some kind of appointment with her that morning and stumbled in and found her dead body and was like oh crap but i do believe george sauce buddy leaving the house after she was dead at twilight typically is i think everybody has a little bit of a different definition. For what twilight is one of those things that you hate to hear a witness say because it could mean different things to different people but i always think of it as like the time of when i can no longer see the sun in the sky. But they're still it's still light out so around sunset or slightly just after which is interesting because that plays to the the seven pm. I always thought it was a teenage vampire movie the timeframe at the at the earlier part of that timeframe but team edward. How else are they coming up with that seven. Pm is because there is somebody says they spoke to yvonne. What five or six o'clock was the neighbor that was seen with her at five thirty. Yeah okay yeah. And then he's wasn't he a bit of a creep himself. Yes he's definitely an odd guy. We talked to him in the podcast. But you know we don't really we don't we do not think he was involved again. This looks like overkill. I mean he's a tiny. Little guy is weird. I just don't see we just didn't get that from him. What is his motive. What would he be so pissed off about. Yes maybe he was a paper but other than that. I mean the guy has no record. He just seems like he's still lives in the same house. I mean if you murdered this girl you would think he'd probably is. I mean there there just many reasons to make thank like you know. He probably wasn't involved. I'm with you. I don't think he lines up and find it interesting that he speaks with you guys. All these years later doesn't seem like he's dodging anything here. Hasn't moved away. But i will throw this out there when we go into motive and things of that nature is. I have seen in more than one case where we have an individual. That is very much like this. That did commit the crime. And what where i'm going with this maggie is that this guy would see men in and out of your vons home all hours of the day and then he's over there gets inside. She's invited a man. She rejects him and then his mind goes to. She doesn't say no to anybody else. Why is she saying no to me. What is wrong with what is wrong with me. And then it then he turns on her. So i've seen that in some cases. I'm not saying that situation here. We know that yvonne could be described as promiscuous. I'm not saying that they were men coming in and out of her house at all hours of the day. Although it seems like that may have been the situation. Yeah yeah exactly and we think about that too with joe. Maybe joe did do this. And he also got past that she rejected him and he just kinda lost it the interesting thing and i'm curious to hear what you guys think. Is you know. I guess we could put aside the neighbor but i want to talk about jokes. I don't know much about jim. I just know he doesn't have a record. I mean everything we know about. Joe is he. Is this kind person yes. He's troubled but it never seemed to manifest in a violent deviant way. Joe's friend said he didn't even really do drugs. I mean he smoked weed and drank. So you know. He's this kind nice kid. Would he suddenly just snap and become this rage full killer when he had nothing like that in his past. I'm just curious to hear your thoughts. Boy has a lot of trauma in his past so to me that would give them the capability. The thin i can't get over with with. Joe is a couple of things one the confession before he talks to police because he's basically telling people i did this before he even talked with police. Yeah and allegedly. Did i put the i. Put that in the podcast. I couldn't remember well. Maybe that's something that we need to address here. If if you're able to is what would be the motivation of this. Miss moore and Mr campbell for their statements that we spoke with joe wilkes on the day of the murder and he says i'm i'm here to You know i've been hired to kill someone for for whoever. But what would be their motivation for. Their statement because the captain's absolutely right. That's that's how they find joe welk's and that's something that if if he did tell them that it's very difficult for anybody to go. He told somebody that and then that night someone he knew was murdered. I'm sorry but it gets very difficult to get past that. It not so much for david now so much for david thorne because again. There are a million different scenarios that we could have joe wilkes as the actual murderer here in david. Thorne didn't have anything to do with it. And he just had the the worst luck in the world that he interacted with this guy and was friends with this guy before and after absolutely i mean we we think about this all the time so rose and chris are interesting. So i i mentioned we wrack our brains every day trying to think about what would their motive. The we don't know one of our hypotheses is. Chris did get a lot of trouble with the law actually arrested like a day or two after he told police about this. You know we've we've speculated he could have been an informant. They just needed to lean on him for this and rose was his girlfriend and he just told her to shut up and just stick to the story. Whatever you know has been any sort of combination of that i. I don't know what their motive would have been. I don't know if they lied. What i do know is that their stories are odd. They're they change a lot between no. It was definitely not a pocket knife and then by trial was a pocket knife. I find that something really difficult to get around. How do you mistaken eight inch blade. And then suddenly a It's a pocket knife you know. She specifically mentioned a sheath. I think that's weird. His clothing change colors. They say he was in a white nike tracksuit at the mall. The pants that he found were black. That doesn't bother me as much people can mistake colors. Oliver memories are not perfect for you know there are just weird things about them in joe's confession. He never mentioned seeing them. He says i was at the mall and blah blah. They specifically asked. Did you tell anybody about this. So it's weird. It's just weird. It's one of those mysteries that. I don't know if we'll ever have answers to what happens at that at the mall. And if they lied or why they lied if they did well when they come forward. It's three months later. So it's it's easy to go okay. Maybe they didn't remember what color ants the guy was wearing. It's it is weird. That that joe is a little more upfront about having talked to somebody that night when he seems to be giving the police everything else that they're asking for during the course of that confession the one thing though that i find interesting is do you see. Is there a road that investigators could take the somehow lease them to joe wilkes through david thorne and then now three months later we have to. We can't say oh we we. We found joe wilkes by this avenue. We need to create an avenue. That led us to joe wilkes because what the jury is going to see in this case. If david would have had a good defense team it would've. It should have been pointed out that look for three months. These guys had nothing and they tried to build a case against david thorne and they couldn't so you as jurors have to ask yourself why if david is so damn guilty here why did they have nothing for three months and so now we have this. I mean in. Here's where i'm going with this man. I wonder phone records. Joe wilkes does he use his name when he checks into the hotel that night. There are ways that could lead you to joe wilkes as an investigator that later. You can go back and say you know what chris gamble. You're not such a good guy. Why don't you help us out and we'll help you out a little bit at the same time because we need somebody to tell us about this. Joseph wilkes now that girlfriend of yours. Can you think you can get her to go along with the your statement. Well the thing to they knew that they were at the mall that night and and it's just so interesting because joe has never denied seeing them but he has said it was just a casual conversation. It wasn't something that stuck out to him when he's being interrogated by the police and telling them every accounting of his day. So it's just. I'm with you on that. Maybe that's exactly what what is that's why you know we have been looking into. Was chris an informant of some kind at. He have relations with the police. Could they have leaned on him. It's all possible. There's so many possibilities in this case. The other thing that me is the child when he says that he saw jeremy or or. What was the other name. Jimmy or jimmie. It sounded like he gave two or three yet another. Yeah they're all j. names right which goes along. It wasn't joe. Yeah but goes along with. Joseph where maybe just can't remember. I know it started with j. So it's jeremy or you know or whatever it is so i think that has always bothered me. And that's very interesting captain. Because we know by joe's own statements that he had seen he'd been vons at least once maybe twice. Is that right maggie. No more than maybe two times. According to him if we include the murder that's one of those kind of murky working areas so capt might be hitting on something here. This child may be trying his best to help. But because he's only met this guy once or twice or you know maybe he's having trouble placing the name and he's getting close with the j. names and that's a very interesting. I absolutely agree with you guys. I don't think we can really you know. Just brush aside. What vinnie said. And i think you know every one of these things on its face is not gino major but when you put them all together it's it's really Confusing i'd say question. I have a question for you. Joe has recanted his confession. Before is that can is that. When he's recanting confessions he saying i wasn't there. I didn't murder anybody now. He's always put him there himself there. He says he didn't do it. He says he he walked in and she was already dead. And he panicked. If you're feeling depressed or struggling with uncertainty or having difficulty sleeping better help offers experience therapists. Who can listen and help you know. I've been open and honest about my struggles with depression. 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So where do these businesses turn to to fill these roles fast ziprecruiter and right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter dot com slash garage. When you post a job on ziprecruiter they send your job to over one. Hundred top job sites giving you access to their network of millions of job seekers ziprecruiter's matching technology scans resumes to find qualified candidates for your open roles and proactively presents them to you. You can easily review recommended candidates and invite your top choices to apply for your job which encourages them to apply faster. And right now you can try ziprecruiter for free at this exclusive web address ziprecruiter dot com slash garage. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash g. a. r. a. g. e. that's ziprecruiter dot com slash garage. Ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire. So if he wasn't there with the purpose of being paid to commit homicide why in those statements is he there he at all one statement. He went to invite her to a hotel party in one statement. That's why he's at the hotel. Yes in another statement. He's there to have sex with her. Jim she could have rejected and he flies into a rage does something that he almost immediately regrets and now lucky him see. That's one thing that the other issue that. I have with getting away from the possibility joe wilkes as the actual murder. Because you know you said well. He didn't have much of a record or didn't have a record in and he didn't do drugs yet by his own admission in that confession regardless of how they got to that statement it is still his sworn statement at the time he says i did. I did some drugs at night Before going over there to kill her and then later his own words again to save my own ass. I said you know. I had to tell them that. David thorne hire me. And so it's like. Is this guy smart enough. And you said he's no dummy. Is he smart enough to creating ways to save his own. I think i was. I was so high on these drugs when i killed her. I didn't know what i was doing. I was out of my mind man. Oh if that doesn't work. And i need somebody else to to save my but i can blame some of this on david thorne and may maybe i called him the next day for for no reason other than because we were friends and i know that maybe they might be able to be called to confess called him to confess things and we see if in fact all the things that everybody says about david. Thorne and joe wilkes relationship is true other than this murder part given joe's background and how he was raised in the horrible environments that he was raised in and then david being a little older. It looks like david kind of takes him under his his wing. He you know we know david's a car guy. He gives them some kind of junk car. That that somebody like david could fix up and he would. He would actually have a vehicle so he could get to and from a job and david says you know like look. I'm not doing. I do favors for this kid. Because because i hired him to kill my ex girlfriend. I did favors for the kid because wanted to help them out. But to i would help him out and it would create inconveniences for me now. Now this guy's always reaching out to me. Can you drive me here. Can you drive me to my. I'm gonna lose my job if somebody who doesn't take me there and you know i can get this kid a vehicle for a few hundred bucks and it helps him out but ultimately helps me out as well. Yeah absolutely i you know there. There's so many possibilities and we haven't even gone into. Do you know the fact that the cops the cops didn't at the beginning thing. David actually had anything to do with this by their own. Admission they went to the psychic. I mean that is. The biggest bombshell of this whole case is what the police say to the psychic. Let's let's circle back that maggie before we get too far away from something else that. I'm very intrigued on i. I always love when we cover cases. I wanna hear the suspects. I want a roll call of the suspects and let's start with the j. suspects because we were talking about vinnie. Trying to help out. Saying i saw a jimmy or jeremy or somebody with that sounding name hurt. My mom pushed by mom. Interestingly enough there is a jeremy. In this case. And there's a jimmy in this case. Who is the jeremy. And how is he tied to our victim yes. Jeremy is a family friend. It's eric. Who's yvonne's boyfriend baby daddy. It's his mother's boyfriend. So jeremy vinnie very well actually because he was living with him and linda did he was not any vons custody. She pretty much gave up at birth because he was disabled. She couldn't really take care of him and she gave him to her. Her boyfriend's parents to take care of so vinnie was raised by german linda for the most part so he would know jeremy if he saw jeremy and one of the names. If if there was a motive for jeremy to be involved or have done this it would be simply all tied to the boy vinnie. they're practically raising vinnie. The majority of the time not practically they are raising him the majority of the time. They're his main caregivers as it sounds to me yet yvonne is getting the disability checks from the state and she's using them to fund her lifestyle or razor other children. Exactly well again. I think the whole idea of you know if she's having she is a sex worker and having guys coming in our house that creates a motive for almost any male. That's in her life. A you said they come on to her or they think well she's Saying yes to all these guys. She'll say yes to me and if she doesn't there's a lot of guys that would go into a rage and then the there's also a gym urge jimmy in this and that's the neighbor that we talked about them is the neighbor who also knew the kids. I don't know how well they knew him. I mean according to jim you know him and yvonne would just hang out outside in the yard sometimes. The kids would run around his yard. 'cause they're yards connected. There was no fence between them so it seems like he knew the kids but certainly not on the level that jeremy did and if he were in fact the guilty party it would fall into what the captain was. Just talking about there where this would be. He had some kind of infatuation or obsession with with this. I mean she was a very beautiful young woman and again if you have a scenario where he thought they were friendly. And all of sudden she rejects him or calls him a name or find some in adequate or anything. You have those possibilities. One person that. I want to hit on before we get into the amazing wonderful alliance police department and how fine and fantastic of a job. They just continue to do. I want to talk about somebody that if in fact the things that i've heard about this individual on your podcast make him probably the most disgusting and despicable individual. That's referenced so far. I i understand you have some episode to get to but sherman. Let's talk about sherman. Because i have been sermon. If i'm looking at this case from a clean slate. That's the guy that i want to talk to. The most in the people around him are the ones that i want to ask about sherman. The most off the bat. I've called him the number. That i have for him isn't working. I've reached out to the kids to ask them. You know for a number. I have tried to reach him. I can't so sherman jehovah's on they live a very quiet life but we have heard from her friends a lot of horror stories about the abuse that he put her. And you know very recently. We heard from another close friend and her sisters. We believe were also a may be abused by him sexually and we do know that. Yvonne thought that it was possible. He was doing this to her kids and she actually set up a video camera in her house with tapes. Eric's actual dad. Not jeremy eric's dad. Fred helped her set up videotapes to try and catch sherman in the act. This was fred's on a fred statements before he passed away so we have not been able to nanny cam force. It was nineteen ninety nine. So it's like a giant camera that you could see some of the crime scene photos on top of her fridge in those tapes were collected and fred had asked for the tapes back and he never got them. So we don't know what's on those tapes. They don't seem to exist anymore. But yet you know sherman to meet you like you know what if von was pregnant with his kid. What if one of these kids is. Sherman's kid that that has certainly crossed our minds but could be. The one kid has certain disabilities. I mean anything is possible. The more we've talked to people who knew her more. It seems like the abuse was pretty severe. It seems like you know. Even their mother probably knew a lot of these cases they know in. There's nothing they can do or you know. They're also abused again. These are all allegations. I'm not saying sure did this. This is just what we have heard from multiple people. We've thought about him as a suspect and the thing that we just keep coming back to is. I don't think that he would have wanted this attention. They really seem to recoil from it and not necessarily in a way of like we did this. It seems like they really just do not want this attention at all. They have never spoken to media. They've never been a part of it. They kind of wrapped it up and it was quiet and again that could be because he knows some dirty things are going to lead back to him or again because they're quiet people and he just wouldn't murder his daughter because he doesn't want all this attention is something we really ought about. I don't care who you are. Nobody wants to be known as in incest driven sexual predator. And so one thing that we see here in this case is the potential of a possible cover up and the reason why bring him up. You know there's another cover up possibility that we're going to quickly get into and move along to hear but was sherman in relation to him if there were to be another type of cover up if she was killed you know. That's one of the leading motivations for murder in anywhere is to cover up previous crimes and if in fact sherman is guilty of the rumors that you have heard then it seems to me like that would be something that he may want to cover up. Maybe he went there that night to try to reason with her or threatened her to keep her quiet or to collect those tapes. Maybe she threatened him. That's one thing that. I think we haven't really touched on much. Is you've odd personality. She didn't seem to me to be much of a take. A lotta shit. Kind of she was not she was feisty would be a very polite in-kind way of describing. Yes oh so. We have found out through reporting. That novon was scammer. In a sense she would shake people down so the idea that you know. She was threatening her dad. To expose him is very plausible. Maybe she did catch something on that camera and he went over again. He puts himself there that day. I have no idea where he was that night. Of course we don't have any recorded interviews with him from the police so that's really helpful when trying to go back to this investigation there is not a single interview with him so we don't really know where he was that night what he was doing at all and one that doesn't sit well with me about sherman. And it's coming from law enforcement own mouth. When they went to talk with her mother they say even now she's a shell of individual. And so if you happen to hear you know your husband. Say while that's it she's dead to me and then you end up finding her dead the next day. There's going to be doubt in your mind so you know it's one thing to find your your dead child but then if you know on top of that that your husband's responsible for that puts you in a very scary situation. Yeah i think cagno in a scary situation before the murder too. I think that was just a dark household. You know the abuse that she endured. If it is true would certainly explain why you know. She was allegedly so promiscuous in having children at sixteen a lot of it. You know makes makes sense. She was sexually traumatized. And you know. That's that's often. What happens but yes so you know. There's i know this is what you wanna talk about. you know. there's no interview with sherman because the police did a really good job with this investigation. So yeah we in real quick before we move on in regards to the tapes if they existed or or what was on them. We don't know as you said they can't find them today. And one thing with those those tapes and vence personality and attitude and being a possible victim to sherman or maybe her her kids are victimized by this guy there doesn't necessarily have to be anything incriminating on those tapes for him to want those tapes to go away bad enough to potentially do something like this it could just simply be the threat of those tapes of her saying you know. I got a video camera running in here all the time you know. I've been taping you while you're over here. That doesn't necessarily have to mean that that she caught anything on camera just that it was happening and he perceived the threat of being outed because of that camera. Now just so. We don't dance around the subject anymore. Why don't we talk about the alliance. Pd as it were. Nineteen ninety nine. And i understand that. They've made a lot of effort to clean things up there since then it but it was not the most well run oiled machine back then as we want it to be as citizens taxpayers and a lot of that comes out in those tapes when we have detectives talking with the psychic. And thank you maggie for including that in the series because that psychic woman just amazing. She's looking at these detectives going. Why haven't you guys looked into this. Why is avant hanging out with so many cops. Why is she friends with so many cops. Why are there so many married officers married with children officers. That seemed to be friendly with her. Some have some kind of relationship with her. These cops muklewicz samson never thought that these tapes would see or hear the light of day ever ever ever ever. This was one of the brief violations at trial. This was never presented. It was hidden. They got it in the post conviction. And the tapes. Actually i got the attorneys number. Had the tapes that i know of they have the transcript so this is the first time anyone's hearing the tapes and it's just it's like you said the psychic i mean it's just jaw dropping at what they are telling the psychic about their own department and people that they had heard officers. Were sleeping with her. You know for money and she has if they ever looked into any of these people in their like no. Did you look in to the dad. No did you look into jeremy. I guess we should do that. They hone david and it seems like they really do. We don't have a formal interview. Jeremy don't have a formal interview with jim. We don't have formal interviews with any of these officers that were allegedly sleeping with her. Have these we don't even have interviews with so if they spoke to them where is that. Why would you not speak to her. Father that you tell this psychic was abusing her. It's just mindblowing that the entire case file is david and then joe and you know so the department at the time as you episode on this. It's you know. I could do five episodes on it In nine hundred ninety eight the chief chief black eight officers were fired for severe corruption for stealing guns drugs and money from the evidence room and your guess is as good as mine is where the guns drugs and money were going when they were stealing it so you know at the time of her murder. The department is in chaos. There are still folks that are you know seriously corrupt to just were not caught and fired. We get a new police chief who brings a civilian right along into the crime scene. Which is why this case was in a what not to do at a crime scene book it was. It was incredible what was happening at the time in the department and then this young mother is murdered and the investigation was so poor. It will just blow your mind. I mean to simplify. It almost seems like law enforcement went. Okay well it's either eric. Or it's david an ericsson jail so it has to be david. oh wait. David was at this wrestling class. And there's he has three counties away and has solid alibis. Not just one person multiple people then they just kinda stop. Stop the investigation for three months. That's how the exactly that's how the case files are. There's nothing from may. There's nothing from june all of a sudden. We have joe wilkes in in july. I mean i just think it's really is our. What were you doing in that time. Well and for those not familiar with the case. We should point out here. That data thorn is at this martial arts class. This was routine. This was once a week thing that had gone on for weeks prior to this. This was not him going out of his way to be several counties away conveniently at the time of the murder. The other thing too is the police chief. Let's circle back around to him so he is actually the guy that replaces the corrupt police chief after the police chief is fired and then we have him. He brings the author of that book. One of the books anyway says that it was a date that it was some woman that he was dating brings her to the murder scene. And the chiefs response to that or story always been no. It was a civilian ride along. I don't care. I don't care which way you shake that thing out. It's wrong either way. I you know if you have a ride along. Sorry you need to stay in the car. This is a a murder scene and by the way we're not talking about chicago or even columbus ohio. We're not talking about a major city. Where unfortunately we have to deal with homicides on a weekly or daily basis. This is alliance ohio where this stuff is few and far between and proof of that is not just in the numbers and the statistics that anybody can look up. But it's also in the way that they conducted this investigation these guys. It doesn't seem like they were starting a murder investigation. It seems to me like they were starting from scratch because they just didn't know what to do or how to conduct this type of investigation. Not with any talk kind of efficiency or thoroughness. It's going to seal a conviction. You hear the psychic. When did detectives give her information. She's looking at them. And you you can all you hear in the tone of voice when she's throwing questions back at them she's like you guys didn't look at that. You guys didn't look at this you didn't you. You can tell she wants to look at these two guys and go. Is this your first day on the job. Did you did just get deputize. This morning because All these things that are obvious to psychic woman appear to be obvious to these detectives or they turn their heads away from it and did not want to look in those directions. I think i think that's you know we talk about this too is if someone else killed her. The police certainly had motive to cover it up because of whatever was going on with them they just wanted to brush it under the rug and none of you know none of their sex with her or even maybe drug connections. I mean the police towel the psychic they found we'd at the crime scene. Marijuana there is no marijuana in evidence where is that marijuana that you allegedly found at this crime scene. So whatever happened in this murder. I think police definitely wanted to brush it under the rug very quickly for their own sake. Well that's a good point too because one of the things i wondered. Is we have this girl dead. You know that there's officers that are having some kind of sexual relationship with her. At that point you either have to turn this investigation over to somebody else or you have to figure out which officers are having a relationship. Make sure they have nothing to do with the case and then when you say all while they found weed and it goes missing well probably because she got that weed from a police officer or there some connection from that we while. That's i mean. They were literally stealing guns drugs and money from the evidence room and like. I said it's anyone's guess where that was going with was missing marijuana from her house. I mean you put the pieces together. It just is really shady. Sounds to me like there's a portion of their evidence room back in the nineties that was set items that are set aside for an officers only barbecue. It was probably happening on the rag. You know we got some weed and cocaine for free. You like collecting guns here. You go buddy you know. Let's get together with officers and wives only and let's have a big blowout wives after also. Yeah yeah regardless of where it came from or how she got it. But the the thing here too and i hate the term police cover-up because i think it's way over used and that takes away from the severity of the situation when you use a term way too much use it when it's not necessary in most cases they go. Oh this cop knew the victim so clearly the whole departments covering it up. Nee nine times out of ten what i've seen in these investigations. They don't mind buston and popping one of their own. They want to get the guilty party here. This situation is unique. Because if what was going on. That's been speculated if if any of that is true they're not covering for the guy that actually killed her because of to to save his but they're covering for the whole departments they were doing committing they were committing breaking the law time and time again themselves and so they're covering their own asses by covering for one of their own. If in fact what we've heard has been true. No exactly that's the thing so messy could guy have been seen that morning. Been a cobbler. George hill said sure and he was just you know cleaning up some stuff. 'cause he was like oh fuck if there is drugs and stuff in here we ought to get rid of it because it's coming back to us you know it's like all everything is possible. I think what i see here. Look there again. There's no smoking gun that tells me that david is one hundred percent innocent. I strongly questioned the investigation. I even more so question. Joseph wilkes i do see plenty of scenarios where joe could be guilty. David just collateral damage. I also see scenarios where we have other suspects that i have to believe. I've not reviewed the trial transcripts but one thing. The point out here is joe. Had no trial he confessed. And then he testified against david thorne and not over overly whelming lee convincing in his testimony against david thorne. Either i think you pointed out that he on your show that he says. I don't know it seems to be the most common answer that he gives while on the stand. I don't know i. I see i see a case where we have other possibilities. We have other good suspects. And i can't believe the defense even made reference to these people. The whole thing here is. I've always said that you're homicide or the the the victim if your family member of a victim your cases only as good as the desk of the officer that it your case file lands on and that's the unfortunate truth of these scenarios and obviously there are some better police forces than others. That will always be the truth but one thing that gets lost in a lot of these true crime cases especially the ones that are solved. Is you know we've presented some cases here in the garage where you get these guys that just get bomb. Frequent lawyers did they. They're happy to take your money but they ain't going to do. Any work for referencing may paid a lot of money. This was a private attorney that they hired david's family they again. They were broke. They used they had money to hire this private attorney. And the defendant is usually blinded by the idea. Oh this guy cost a lot of money. He must know what he's doing. Well i don't know if this guy knew what he was doing or not but he didn't act that way or conduct himself that way. He called three witnesses. The guys on could be facing the death penalty. Were reminds me a lot of the ryan ferguson trial because you have yeah one guy confessing to the crime. The other guy. Saying i wasn't one. I have an alibi but to i wasn't involved at all. And then you have a crappy lawyer that basically says all prosecution didn't prove their points. I'm not gonna really defend it much. How many episodes have you released so far. And how many more do you have to go. So there's fourteen and we have six more and it is with some of the very exciting key people that can answer or just money this but you know it's This is a crazy case. I'm so thankful for you guys for putting it on your airwaves especially from ohio because somebody knows something we have a tip line number now People can call if anyone in ohio in the alliance area knows anything. That number is eight. Six three nine five five zero. So i really thank you guys for this. Thank you as always coming on the show. we're looking forward to the final episodes of murder in alliance. Then thank you guys so much for the support. Thanks afford tana friend so much more you can dive into and this case. And that's why this week's recommended listening will be murder and alliance wherever you get your podcast and join us back here in the garage next week for a new case until then be good. Be kind and john lewis

joe wilkes vinnie george hale Homestore joe yvonne david thorne david jeremy sherman alliance police department amy ashley Joe Ashley homestore ashley home store wiley roots brewing Green slush ron getcha
S2 Ep.1:Antisense

Unraveled: A Long Island Serial Killer

45:41 min | 4 months ago

S2 Ep.1:Antisense

"Hi i'm ashley a producer here discovery. And i'm here with my fellow producer. Cody to tell you about. Today's sponsor hellofresh with hellofresh. You get fresh premeasured ingredients and mouth-watering seasonal recipes delivered right to your door skip trip to the grocery store and count on hellofresh to make home cooking. Easy fun and affordable. And that's why america's number one meal kits hellofresh offers the flexibility. You need with customizable orders. Every week you can add extra proteins insides up the serving size when you have guests or just double up on your favorite recipes so your box works harder for you. And hellofresh is the first carbon neutral meal kit offsetting one hundred percent of carbon emissions as a result hellofresh is carbon footprint is twenty five percent lower than store bought. Grocery made meals hellofresh also delivers the right proportions of ingredients. You need i whipped up. Some beef flouted suppress which by the way it were delicious. And i had exactly the amount of ingredients that i needed. No food waste means. You're not overburdening. The plants or your wallet go to hellofresh dot com slash lisk twelve. That's l. I s. k. One two and use code lisk twelve for twelve free meals including free shipping again visit hellofresh dot com slash lisk twelve and use code lisk twelve for twelve free meals including free shipping hellofresh. America's number one meal kit the following podcasts contains content about stalking and sexual harassment that maybe triggering or unsuitable for some listeners. Discretion is advised. If i told you the story is a stranger might be like once upon a time when the internet was an on wifi yet and we just moved past dialing into a modem it was still the wild wild west and a cowboy with a black hat rode into town and law enforcement. Just didn't know what to do with him. He started getting threatening to me. It always felt like dealing with a monster earlier. Some kind of demon. This guy is a menace. He's a stalker. Psycho was gonna kill me. That's vanessa the woman who has endured the wrath of one of the most ruthless online stalkers. I've ever heard have. He's a sick person. That's clear there's nothing. I could have done that warranted this. What am i supposed to do. Here's the thing. It all started innocently enough with an encounter between strangers non line forum shared. Laugh over a comment some congenial banter but when it went south while that's the story we're about to tell you he does have the ability to completely ruin your entire life once. He's made up his mind. That's he puts you on this list and you're to be erased. He would make me pay. He's hurt people before i deserve to die. She's one of the most dangerous people i've ever had to investigate to seems like wherever i go. There is from discovery plus. Id joke productions. This is unravelled the stockers a six part. Podcast investigating the story of one of the most prolific monsters to ever prowl. The cyberworld and we'll see how the power that such a criminal has can lay waste to reputations careers relationships and even lives in new. What vanessa v. didn't realize is that she had unknowingly intersected with an individual that possessed a disturbing combination of damage psyche and technical know how he would be known by many names within the online community but as we investigated him further he became known to us as one of the most prolific serial cyber stalkers of all time someone who spent decades targeting individuals with the express purpose of ruining seemingly every facet of their lives. I'm alexis linkletter. True crime documentary television producer and an investigative journalist. And i'm billie johnson. I'm an investigative journalist and true crime producer. The cyber world is the latest frontier of human interaction. But for all the good at his brought it remains dangerous territory revengeful personalities an unstable mines have the ability at their fingertips to toy with people's lives to the point where they're victims have no place to hide in no laws to protect them. We've got a small taste of this ourselves a few years ago during our early days of podcast hosting for brief period i was stocked online by a stranger and it was scary. I'll give some details on that later. But made billion curious about the dark and even deadly world of cyber stalking. We wanted to export deeper over this past year. Alexis and i have spoken with dozens of victims of cybercrimes along with the professionals who investigated these cases pursued these offenders we encountered horrific stories of lives upended disturbing tales of extortion and psychological terror an unbelievable cases that ended in murder. And we uncover the granddaddy of them. All the predator. Who not only targeted vanessa. V but of fifty other victims over the better part of four decades. I decided to tell a story because every male friend. I talked to told me not to do it. They said i should stop investigating and stop inserting myself into this world. People are scared of these criminals and not enough people are speaking out because of it. And i'm telling the story because having now investigated it. I came to realize that you'd rather face a guy in an alley with a knife than an online predator with a keyboard. You know you might get hurt in the knife fight. At least you'd have a fighting chance against the cybercriminals you're fighting with hands tied behind your back. Savelli do you remember. I don't know. I think it was two years ago. Maybe when we had that guy posting on our facebook group who was asking me out on a date and then all of the mods and admin's at our group kind of turned on him and said it was inappropriate. Because was it got a little much and then he got booted right. They kicked him out of the group but for some reason he thought i had kicked out of the group and then he started retaliating and he started making all those awful posts on i tunes and tending new messages and i think there was some instagram. Turkey showed up on your instagram account. Right yeah but then. I learned that he'd actually gone on to stock some really high profile people and it really does make you wonder how they pick and choose what they're gonna do. Because i got lucky he lost interest but there are some a lot of news coverage about this guy and his his behavior with some high profile people and it really does make me wonder like why they choose the people they choose can how badly it could have been really was sort of a gateway taste into what that could have been like. My encounter with notable cyber stalker happened in two thousand eighteen as he targeted me over those several weeks. I struggled to understand his motives. What did he get out of it because his behavior scared me and i think that was the point. I think you got off on that a quick note before we dive in. You'll notice we're adding last initial to vanessa's name. That's because there's more than one vanessa. In this story appoint we'll examine more closely later. Were not giving full names. Because the victims. You'll hear from been scarred by. They're stalkers to varying degrees. The outcome of their experiences has left many with a sensitivity to strangers. They're willing to trust us with their stories in order to shed light on this issue so much of my lifetime being dedicated to fear this on so long and no one's done anything about it. Vanessa was incredibly honest invulnerable during our interview. She admits that she's endured a lot of trauma during her deal. An ordeal that started back in two thousand four unlimited. My twenty four twenty five. I live in dallas texas. I'm going to college for studio art and you know just being young. I guess i was married to a guy admit junior college. Not the greatest marriage. We were both very. I was twenty three when we got married. I was pursuing a bachelor's of fine art with an emphasis in arts and performance. And just you know. You don't have a lot of spare time aside from being an art. Major mckinley goof off online. Because it didn't cost you anything to read people's lives journals. And i was getting to make new friends from all over the place and trying to network for what would eventually become my career. The internet still kind of a baby at this point. I i'm using my space live journal like aol chat and yahoo chat and how does live journal work. It's basically an early blogging platform. That had it was networked together so you can add friends and interact and watch each other's feeds. I mean it's not dissimilar to facebook. It was just more like blog oriented. I don't think he knew how to behave on the internet. I think we were still figuring that out. And like you're using a fake name or choosing who you let in and out so like there's a certain level of safety and it's okay to be like super personal and i think part of the appeal of the web back then as you could meet people. You wouldn't normally talk to and that experience information culture from other people. So yeah you friend a lot of people that just seemed all right and you know had a similar interest group to you. There was a live journals immunity and somebody with a name like anti sense made a comment. I responded haha. Because i thought it was funny and the guy friend at me. I didn't really think anything of it. That random friend request from the user named anti-sense kick started an online interaction. That at first seemed innocent. If not a weird so then he served messaging me. Hey do you want these books. I've got three hundred esoteric tax on cds. Can i mill that to you. Hey i'm really interested in x. Y. and z. And here's some great pot recipes. It's so wacky. Vanessa spoke periodically with anti-sense who lived in austin less than two hundred miles away from dallas. She treated the relationship like any of her other many anonymous connections on the web but soon this weird interaction turned on satellite as his online messages became uncomfortably graphic out of nowhere at salata porn with him and like other people and i am self india's. I didn't ask for this. I just get it. And i mean at that point. My twenty s i did not have much of a spine. I was just like really want this and don't care about that. Can you stop. He never listened out of nowhere. It's like i really want to find someone to have a threesome with me. And my wife. We're going to make a spiritual parakeet you could be the left wing of the spiritual parakeet and. I'm just like. I would not like that at all very much. Please go away okay. Let's stop for a moment here because this sounds really extreme. So were these photos. Actually as bad as vanessa was saying so we asked if she still had them and she agreed to share them with us when we saw them. They were just as vanessa was saying the images showed a dark haired man in two women in someone's house naked and they were taking post photos of each other in a variety of sexual interactions remember. These were sent to vanessa unsolicited. Which makes it even crappier. So here's our reaction. These are so strange. Female one is holding mannequin heads in so as you do it. Super super creepy is a picture of a parakeet had proposed into the photo. This is so bizarre. Vanessa said something about the third way of the sexual parakeet so the assumption is that would be three women that create the parakeet. Yes oh my god okay. So there's a female wearing strap on. He spent over in his hands or cut behind his back at She's doing something will allow the ethic. Look she has. Collar under neck is featureless with the he's female to. He's over her with his hands. This is very hard to explain. His hands are on. She's laying face down. He's kneeling over her his. They're both naked and his hands are on her buttocks. Yeah let's talk about the toys so we've got strap on that two females wearing we saw handcuffs we saw collars so lots of props lot of sort of 'em implications here struggling to understand. Why would somebody send vs presumably. It's to convince her to come join our sexual party which didn't work in. I'm not really surprised that it didn't work based photos. Strange shatman view despite vanessa's requests for anti sense to stop propositioning her. He did not let up. He's starting to get real insistent that i drive from dallas to austin to hang out with him and i was not confident enough to like stand up for myself. I was in a bad marriage and did not have the best parents. So i didn't have any support or cockbain. And that seemed to really interesting in kind of vanessa never did agree to meet with anti sense. But over the next few years he continued to contact her urging her to change her mind. It didn't happen the way he hoped it was two thousand eight. I was in graduate school at the university of houston and i had left the musician. At that point we got divorced. I saw the anti-sense persisting and stocking some of the people that over talking to him. It had become completely obvious that he was harassing. It was nice to have people to talk to. But i can't stand bullies so i would always just get so upset that he's hurting all these people. I can't sit there and watch someone just bully and abuse people's so i tried to help. In what way. Vanessa alerted some of the other users warning them about the kind of individual anti-sense appeared to be unfortunately anti-sense watching her every online move of woke up and logged into yahoo messenger and started getting this tirade of. I've betrayed him. How dare you give information to the enemy. Like you know. He told me. I'm gonna blow up life and you'll regret doing this. He would make me pay He's hurt people before. I deserve to die off far to houston. i was scared from. Cbc podcasts. I'm david ridden and this is the next call in september. Nineteen ninety-six melanie. Fda descend from northeastern ontario. Her mother's selene is still searching for answers. I can't let it go. I need to find her. She deserves much. I follow every tip and every theory investigations. That could break wide open with the next call available now on the cbc. Listen app and everywhere. You get your podcasts looking for a new podcast. Binge let us tell you about murder in alliance on april fools day of nineteen ninety nine twenty six year old. You von lane was found nearly decapitated in our ohio home. All our kids slept newly everyone who knew. Yvonne had a motive to kill her but her ex boyfriend and father of one of her children. David thorne was the one sentenced to life without parole for the murder but evidence points to his innocence now twenty two years later investigative journalist. Maggie freeling is reinvestigating the case alongside jason baldwin himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the west memphis. Three and his organization proclaimed justice. Maggie in the team of investigators are on the ground in alliance ohio. The town where the murder happened where they are uncovering new suspects new evidence police corruption and a potential cover up and they reporting their investigation in real time. Find murdering alliance wherever you get your podcasts. Facebook launched in two thousand four twitter launched in two thousand and six and in two thousand and eight. Anti-sense launched virtual blitzkrieg against vanessa v. This online mystery man had spent the previous four years trying to groom her for his own personal gratification or more specifically group sex when his efforts backfired say the first thing he did to defame is i was in graduate school at the university of houston and he emailed my graduate advisor. And the head of the department about me being an porno or something didn't take it very seriously. Because they kind of do me bud. He did try to get me in trouble with my college. He emails me or mentions in comments on somebody's blog order sends me messenger threats and like this is the thing like you block him. He's got like three hundred other accounts. You never make this guy go away. He told me at one point. Don't even bother walking. Is i have so many. You'll never you might as well. Just never use yahoo messenger again. And i stopped using your messenger. He was bothering my boyfriend at the time. He emailed his job trying to get him fired. I was like why did you notify the police. I did call the houston police department and the houston police officer that i filed a case report with just did not care. She actually did not ever filed a case even started like popping up in sending different threats while the officer was there and she just didn't know what to do so while the houston. Police officer was taking your statement. He was sending you threats at the very same time that that was happening. He starts doing it in the cops reading. I kinda respond a couple of times. And she's just like this doesn't mean anything with no assistance for authorities. Vanessa best to maintain a sense of normalcy in her life. She got remarried and in two thousand ten after finishing grad school. She and her new husband moved to michigan. But here's where vanessa was brutally honest. Her life was not pretty. At this point the job market was still in shambles from the great recession in. Her marriage wasn't doing much better. That was like a really dark time. The economy was so bad when we were in michigan. My husband and i were not in a good place. And i mean i was just already kind of suicidal. The second we started to relax again so he just hit you at the right time. We're just like it felt like an avalanche on your life just amplified everything that already. Struggling with in the middle of vanessa's darkest hour anti-sense reappeared. It made things even worse with frightening terroristic messages. I would always hear out of him about how he knows. We're him the ones where heave actually threatens to hurt me or always. Really scary in michigan did send me. Something told me that he used a twenty two. Kill someone before and it wouldn't hurt him to kill more people an outright. Death threats acclaimed confession of another murder. Surely this would be enough for local police to do something right. They read it and said they just didn't have any grounds to file anything. I don't think grand rapids even sonata co op. So death threats are enough. Apparently the party line from police was that if there wasn't evidence that he might actually follow through his threats. Were not even worth taking seriously. So he starts sending me these things about how he's gonna kill me and ruin other people's lives and i'm just if you're somebody that has suicidal Ideas it definitely send you into that spiral tissue. I'm sorry not to second album. Sorry after eight. Months of struggling in michigan vanessa and her husband needed a change. There was like not really jobs. We were living with his dad. So after michigan we went back to dallas but she would find out once again that the mystery stalker anti-sense was tracking her every move twenty. I think it was twenty twelve twenty thirteen. I was working as a legal secretary and he started emailing all of the lawyers i worked for. Apparently he had somehow gotten onto my linked in and saw where i was working. I did make some web pages about him. Try to find other victims and have a publicly searchable account that like this guy is hurting people. But he would dr it so they looked like i was stalking him and send it. He's into the lawyers so they're like. Did you post this. I'm like no let me show you the exact page. My bosses didn't understand like why this was happening. However you never met this person. Was he your boyfriend ever would justify what was going on in their brains must have done something to incite. I must have done something to incite it. I'm a bad person I'd i sleep with him. Just really sticks on my call like that somehow justifies. This did have my boss. Sit me down. And he's like when what are we going to do to stop him. And i'm like well. What can i do to stop him. I've called the police and he's just like i don't know but you have to fix lesser. You're going to be in trouble. So what happened with that job. They fired me. Did they give you a reason. You don't have to in the state of texas. Anti-sense was fulfilling his threat to make vanessa pay into ruin her life. She had warned others that he was dangerous and he was now punishing her. I proving her right after i was fired. He decided to email me a list of the dallas homeless shelters and told me that. Good luck with my dumpster diving. How do you think he knew you were fired. He saw it on my facebook. Except it's just malicious at this point now just sadistic emotionally. Yeah one point. Like i remember what exactly it was the trailer it but one of his emails freaked me out so much. I deleted everything i was like. Maybe this'll just make it. Go away you're afraid to look for another job because then you kinda like. How do i explain why they let me go. It robs you of your confidence because you're afraid of what people are going to google. What people are going to see and there was a point where he was trying to actively. Make me look like a white supremacist. And i. that's not the case it's humiliating and then you know you're going to get all these personal questions and you know you're so scared nobody's going to listen to you because so many people down or they just don't get it you feel like you're on trial when you didn't do anything wrong. There's an uncomfortable truth. We need to address here. The fact that vanessa is a woman didn't exactly help her out anti-sense sadistic campaign was also aimed at vanessa's husband and the response was noticeably different. When he emailed husband's job trying to get my husband fired. My husband's employers took him much more seriously. He didn't get the like. Will you know what did she's she. Did you have sex with them. Like did they date. Nobody asked him that nobody was like. Why is this happening. He's just like this guy harassed my wife and now he's in so they just. It was really hard watching a man not get all the blame and not get all the questions. I think it's this dialogue of like well. Why did you deserve this. That is the most hurtful for context. This was happening a good for years before the metoo movement hit national prominence in two thousand seventeen. So not only vanessa dealing with a misconception. That online threats aren't quote unquote real but the ingrained belief that she might have been overreacting to them or that she was even somewhat culpable or somehow deserved it. I don't understand how people can acknowledge that. Someone's behaving egregiously and then try to blame the person that they're being agreed to for what they're doing. I got to hear. Some of jason's egregious nece during one of my first call with vanessa v. When she read me several emails he sent her up. Being homeless and trash diving. Lunch will probably carve some large off of your monsters. I will hound you to hell and back. You got nothing on me. I haven't broken a single law at one point haas here on twenty thirteen. He had sent me this email about how he's going to take a pound of flash and My model to ask and give that up. Because i'm so fad and i showed that to a dallas police officer and he told me that wasn't a death threat and i'm like that's a line from the merchant of venice. That's supposed to be like either. You pay me my money. Or i'll take i'll torture and kill you. It is very much a threat. And he's like no it is and quit using the internet. Was that cops response. That was like you know there is no way in modern society. You can avoid using the internet. Especially like i was working as a web marketer. Then i couldn't that would cost me my living. You know with still no help from authorities. Vanessa grew increasingly paranoid or when her stalker would strike periods where he'd go six months year. I wouldn't hear from him. And then all of a sudden it was just a torrent of grab. It felt like just saying his name would somehow like summoned him from the pits of hell one time dollars when he was threatening me. I thought i saw him drive by car. And i had a complete panic attack and wouldn't leave my apartment. It just could not leave my apartment for anything like you. Just like i think three or four months was the worst jag. It always felt like he chew me going to my core or something. I mean if somebody really wants to hurt you what can you do. I mean i've been scared enough. That i debated getting a shotgun. I have major depressive disorders or chose not to do that because i thought i think it would be a mistake. Vanessa did her best to hold things together and keep building her life then. One day in two thousand thirteen things took an unexpected turn into work around nine or ten sedan on my laptop and my personal email hops up and he sends me pictures of his burnt house and car. Apparently someone firebombed anti senses car in austin in the reason he's sending these photos. Vanessa is the biggest shock of all. He's told authorities she might be the culprit. Yes i was a suspect. And i'm just like oh god. Oh god oh god oh god. oh god. and there's a saying in creative writing circles. Everyone is the hero of their own story. Cyber stalkers have incredible resources for victimizing others but we would also learn they have an astounding propensity for casting themselves as the victims. They justify their actions because they think they're the good guys simply getting revenge for wrongs committed against them. Anti sense now had physical evidence to support that narrative. And he was blaming. Vanessa face anywhere from two to twenty years in prison for arson. So who actually firebombed. His car was it. Random was it someone else getting back at him for his relentless harassment. Or anti have done this himself casting blame on a target while possibly cashing in on some sort of insurance. Whatever the reality vanessa. Vi was now the subject of a criminal investigation was the first time i knew for sure where he lived. And so that was shocking. I was shocked that he would send me that stuff. I got my boss. I'd already had the. I have a psycho stalker. Who's gonna email you guys conversation them like. I have to call the austin fire marshal real quick. It's related to the stocker. And he's like okay told me about it later so i call the fire marshal. He's blake i. I was going to call you and your husband at some point. You just save me the time. And i'm like okay. Well i wanted to be up front. 'cause i'm not an arsonist I plead geocaching game. That was like playing before word like you can all. I'll give you a thing to pull my cell record. You can see. I was in dallas. I don't even know where the sky live. You didn't ask me some questions. Like where was i what was i doing. Was anyone with me. you know. He seemed completely like confused and overwhelmed. According to the fire marshal. Anti-sense claimed that vanessa the had been harassing and stalking him. It was a disturbing turning of the tables and she's not the only potential suspect. He named the austin fired detector. Says he has late forty people to contact and just like fourty. How many more are there. Is it possible that anti-sense had that many people in virtual crosshairs could any cyber stalker be that prolific billion. I would look into this which you'll hear about later. The good news for vanessa is at the scope of the investigation was finally drawing some positive attention from law enforcement the fire marshal. He's like i'm forwarding this to a cybercrimes unit. It's brand new. They're supposed to handle this kind of thing. I've talked to this guy named spins or chow since he lives in austin otherwise we couldn't because you're in dallas and i'm like okay. I would love. That and spencer was such a breath of fresh air lake. He took it seriously. And i didn't get the judgmental questions and i mean he was baffled and you wanted to understand when i heard it and i didn't know the scope magnitude and i felt shocked when i realized it wasn't two women three bloom in four multiples of dozens. Thirty forty or more. We caught up with detective. Shot ourselves in order to hear firsthand when he began to discover about this case. When i requested the arson report i was given everything that was like the details of where it started how it possibly started endless a suspects and what were those details that the sense of the had was somebody was trying to find their justice that we couldn't give them there was actually a group of women. A lot of them communicated about what he was up to what he had done to them chow was able to collect some examples of anti census work from his various targets. In a strange quirk. There are multiple women vanessa that he targeted but the also dozens of other victims into anti-sense had a vile hatred for the mall. An individual who was pregnant at the time was receiving pictures of babies infants. That had Recently died that were burned. That were mutilated and his victims have been devastated for decades. The heard that he was talking Rizzoli as in the fourth grade. The picture we were getting of the suspect had become disturbingly. Clear this guy was the ted bundy of cyber stalkers. He's one of the most dangerous people. I've ever had to investigate. But this guy was nuts. Clinically probably diagnosed. But there's something very dangerous about a person who would do something like this. His life was pretty much causing torment. Others i think it's worse than any physical crime emotional stress stalking harassment that can lead to post traumatic stress. I mean it's worse than being coach for twenty years. Realize something had to be done. I started to reach out to the victims only later realize i actually didn't have the power to help. Because it was out of my jurisdiction. This is where it gets maddening. Anti-sense had victims all over the country but local agencies had no power to coordinate with each other to build a case against him and the local laws that did exist were woefully inadequate. Some of our laws weren't quite up to date with how to prosecute because stalking was an individual following another or repeatedly showing up at a place of business. It just wasn't a crime to stalk somebody over the internet. But vanessa had an idea that might give them away in. This guy admits to a lot of people that he does a crap ton of drugs. If you go in that house you're gonna be able to arrest him for like whatever's in there but you're going to have to get him by surprise vanessa's idea was smart. If anti census cyber stalking wasn't enough to get him arrested and maybe his drug use was anti cents had been very open about his drug use online. He had even shared his pot recipes with vanessa so there was good reason to believe he would have drugs at his house. This approach was shaping up to be. Vanessa's only shot after years of being harassed humiliated losing jobs if she wanted us to pay for what he had done. This was looking like the only way to make it happen. They set up to do a raid on a certain day. This was gonna finally all end. I felt myself getting a little bit excited. Having him within a jurisdiction that could take action on the time had come for police to put a face to the name and to make sense answer for his horrific behavior when they made their move. A surprise was waiting for them somehow. He was tipped off by the time they try to do a search warrant at his house he was gone. One of the most prolific cyber stalkers ever had vanished in the wind. The mistake they made was telling all of us when that day was and unfortunately somebody let slip when it was kind of a bragging scenario so he got the heads up and had completely failed on the house. I was very mad about that. We really close to having him and to have him escape. I just felt kind of low kind disappointed but there would be one more approach. That might offer vanessa. Some hope spencer. Said i have a buddy who's with the fbi. I'm gonna show him all of this. The stalker has been sending you emails from this canadian company. Hold hush mail which is supposed to you know hide. Ip addresses and keep emails completely anonymous however using a foreign email server to harass people in the united states is a felony and that falls under federal jurisdiction. I think we've got a good case to take this role if we can just get them to take detective chows credit. He dig at the fbi to take the case seriously. The pile of evidence was growing against anti sense including the fact that he wasn't known as anti sense to most of his victims. But who was he. Cereal cyber stalker goes by the names. Louis m are superficial michael. Rudra nayef david powell. He's changed his legal name. He changes states masking his internet. D With like a vpn or something he moves from one place to another and is constantly taunting victims saying. Hey you know what i did this and you can't stop me as the fbi reached out to more victims about their tormentor. One name rose to the top and was soon confirmed to be the name he was originally give. Anti-sense was born. Jason christopher hughes the hunt for the cyber predator was now underway. But he had a massive head start are some of the highlights of what you'll hear this season on unravel. He was brilliant. You have to understand you. Brilliant beyond words fine line between a genius. I guess it in the computer lab in record people logging in and get their credentials that way. I started getting. Emails burned infants. Wishing upon my child. I was like who the fuck does that. It's really hard to live your life. Not knowing when or how this unhinged person was going to show up. Jason was all about revenge. I never knew which shadow he'd step out. I was scared of him. I could not believe my eyes and my ears. When i saw what he had done. I almost fomative. He believed he had a demon inside of him. He's threatening to kill my family. He just left it. All and ashes. Unraveled is produced by joke. Productions iden- executive producers of this podcast. Jokin soon biagio messina. In jeff koons along with myself. Alexis linkletter and billie johnson the executive producer for. Id is tim benei. Additional producing and writing is by smith. Our editor is aaron. Free shop the music and score that you've heard in this podcast is by biagio machina. Eighth talmon in the alibi nimble libraries. I want to extend special. Thanks to vanessa vie for sharing her story with us. If you or someone you know has a story to share about jason christopher hughes you can email us confidentially. A unraveled tips at gmail.com. You can also visit surviving jackson. Dot com for more information and helpful resources on cyber stalking medicare to check back for episode two next week. Wherever you get your podcasts. It helps a lot when you subscribe rate and review the podcasts. That you enjoy them. Thank you for listening and for your support. The case of the long island serial killer is still unsolved if you want to follow her investigation even further. Don't miss our all new special unravelled the long island serial killer now streaming exclusively on discovery plus discovery plus is home to the largest true crime library streaming for only four ninety nine a month and you can catch our special and so much more with our exclusive seven-day trial to get started go discovery plus dot com slash unraveled to start your free trial today. That's discovery plus dot com slash unraveled.

vanessa Vanessa dallas hellofresh billie johnson alexis linkletter austin Savelli michigan facebook salata yahoo university of houston cockbain david ridden houston David thorne Maggie freeling jason baldwin
MTTA 139: Dean Koontz

Meet the Thriller Author: Interviews with Writers of Mystery, Thriller, and Suspense Books

29:27 min | 7 months ago

MTTA 139: Dean Koontz

"You're listening to meet the thorough author. The podcast interview writers of mysteries thrillers and suspense books. I'm host allen. Peterson and this is episode number. One hundred and thirty nine in this episode of the podcast. I welcome back to number one new york times. Bestselling master of suspense dean kootz. Whose latest book the other. Emily will take you on. A twisting journey of lost love. Impossible second chances and terrifying promises had a great time talking with dean coons about his work about the other. Emily which one of the creepiest. Serial killer characters that. I've read in a while and a lot more so stay tuned for that interview coming up. I make sure to visit thrilling dot com for slice links. There you'll be able to access links of where you can rate and review this podcast. You can also check out my website and join the reads newsletter to be notified about great thriller books and a lot more. Check it out at thrilling weeks dot com forward slash links. All right here is by interview with dean koontz. Hi dean peterson today. Good good. I'm doing good. How about yourself. I had no complaints. I well. I have them. But i don't want to burden you with them. What could you do that is true. Yes well thank you so much for agreeing to the interview. I really appreciate it. Let's see how i how i handle myself. I haven't had anything to drink. So i might not be that fluid soon to say the least how things been going for you the less past year. Well we are your even crazier because we moved and It involves moving. I think probably over fifty thousand books and We still don't have most of them out of boxes because we built a library in house and it's It just got finished and we moved in here and halloween. Maybe that was a mistake. Moving and halloween but We moved in. And i've we've been i. It's been very difficult. Because i can't reach all the books that i normally get to when i'm writing book of my own and So my resources have been locked away. And i had to find other ways to get what i need but it's starting to resolve. It lasts so So i will just move forward. Fifty thousand books. That's amazing yeah. That's after we cold i. I can't give books away. Even if i i get one. I don't like it i keep. It didn't even like that and finish it. Why why are you keeping it and said well. I can always know if and looking for example why something doesn't work. I'll remember this book. And i'll go get it and i find them very lies. Well that's ridiculous You know. I window i need an example of what doesn't work it's so so i started getting rid of the books that i never liked and that that got us soda down to this number but i am an obsessive compulsive collector so So the collection on probably grow again. Don't have near that many but my wife's always saying the same thing to get rid of these books. I'm glad that yet. So your latest book the other. Emily is a set to location much. Twenty-third and the real excited. I got a copy of it and had been enjoying it very much. And i'm gonna curious because you have so many bestsellers somebody classic books diesel get nervous during book launch. Not not so much. The the book launch. How you get nervous all the way to the writing that time. Because i i like to chain up a lot i like to move to different things instead of repeating the same thing all the time. i get into a book and then start to think. Well i'm screwing this up at. This one isn't going to work and That self doubt creeps back in so by that time the book is done and we're heading toward publication. I'm i'm so relieved about that book. Because they actually liked it. When i delivered that the tension about the launch has gone instead. I'm all locked up on what i'm doing wrong or think i am in the current book so this is a great list for writers out there that feeling never goes away. Someone in your level feels that way. Well it's You know. I used to wish that i didn't but then i figured well it's also what keeps you honest about it and If ever you felt that every word you wrote was golden. You'd probably be in trouble. You tell us a little bit about the other emily. It's a combine that with how the book came to be. Because that is the way of telling you what it is. But i i. The first thing that came to me. What about a story of guy who met the love of his life when they were twenty. You know early twenties or late teens. And when they were twenty five she disappeared and always thought to be the victim of serial killer And he has been deepening guilt since because he should have been with her the night that she disappeared. Any wasn't and is in guilt and grief at. Don't quite go away especially the gill. It's now ten years later and he walks into our restaurant and and they're sitting at the bar is this woman. is unquestionably hershey's identical. But when he sits down beside her and says where have you been he suddenly realizes she's hasn't age she's twenty five years old and that was the first little thing about. Where does what story. i wanna right next. I thought that would be kind of fun. But then of course. Well we're has. She been and i thought well. What if the serial killer confessed to a serious number of murders and revealed where the bodies were also said that he killed others wouldn't say where they were because he had preserved them to reanimate them if ever he was caught him and he got out of prison he would have a group of girls already prepared for of course. He's insane but this element that he supposedly could preserve. People starts playing a role as our talks to him in prison and our characters to have to think if she didn't die where is she been all these years and if she did die what is she And that really got my Engine cranking say say. Because i thought oh this is this has got the right kind of quality about it and then when she starts to play games with him and to tease him and i won't go into how It opens the door to All kinds of possibilities said who would much is and then at the last moment before he started writing. I thought really what this could be is a retailing of the orpheus. And legend about where he goes to help to win back the The woman he lost and And so that became a sort of modern me telling of the orpheus legend to an extent and At that point. I was ready to go. I couldn't possibly not write the book. No also based on the classic one. That's that's so cool so like like updating kind of yeah it didn't instantly start out that way. But as it as i as story was forming in my mind i thought well it certainly has it resonates with that so so at some point he. He doesn't literally go to hell. I get her back But he goes into a kind of hell in in in our world and it's So it was fun and it was totally different than anything. I've written quite a long time. So that also kept going. David thorne is a successful writer based on you at all and you find that it was easy to basic character based on your profession. I use writers before. Sometimes i i think. Sometimes i used them because i kind of think. Okay i understand that part of that character and And then it does allow you. It's kinda lazy thing too because it allows you to have a writer who doesn't have a job to go to and so when it gets caught up in the story he can just go with it But often i use bartenders or landscaper as in husband bartenders and philosophy or or fry cook is in thomas. I liked to use every day. I don't often use. The main character is something like an fbi. I did that jane hawk. But she's a rogue fbi agent from the first page. The first novel And i i don't like to use characters who are Sort of contemporary superman. Meaning law enforcement officers. Who you know are always going to turn out to win the case. I like to use more average americans as the characters. But when i do go for somebody a little other than that kind of obsession. It tends be a writer. I guess but David thorne. I don't know how much i I identify but one thing i do. Addenda fai with is he learns very young that The thing you should most fear in life has not your own death but the death of of those you and that's something i had come to. But that time. I was his age book so to that extent is probably a little bit me. Yeah that part of the love story part of the book. The could really feel the heart aching guilt that david goes through so that you kind of drew in that of your own relationship. Yeah because we all make mistakes and our lives and wish we hadn't and so not necessarily as a egregious mistake he makes when he went eight five but And with the consequence that it rose from it but But we all make mistakes so yeah you explore some of that in yourself as if you're writing a character like that and also you mentioned the serial killer ronnie lee jessop He was such a great creepy. Character is based on a real serial killer. How do you tap into that. I've done so much research into people who are saying well Not every sociopath is a serious could are every siri again is a sociopath. And i've done a lot of research into sociopaths. My own father late in life was identified. Second time ended up in ward is sociopathic which had explained my childhood way. Never been able to explain it before and so i know a lot about that kind of personality but ronnie lee jessop painted sort of when he came on the page. This big teddy bear a guy That i hadn't seen before. And i thought oh this is interesting. Let me see. I can make the i have a friend who's right. He writes nonfiction but He always i send them. The advanced proves that the book and I suddenly i got this phone call one night and he said oh my god. This guy is the creepiest character. You've ever written. And i said thank you. It seems to be thanking somebody. You say well. You've create a lot of creepy ones. And i said yeah i know but there is something about this guy That is different than any. I've approached before and as consequently a creepy and a different way like reading books about with the creepy killers. And this is one of the top ones out there that layer of his in the house. I don't wanna give too much away but that was would you get the blueprint for that. It's well it comes out of his personality. He is this a psycho path that romanticize stacks early and He's he has this strange delusion alive from the fitness as as a as a lover and so forth and it's Trying to imagine how he would combine the lust for power and the sense of himself. As almost sweet mama's boy and that layer would look like that's where you start to dip into your imagination and and try to think okay When i use the word he's romantic. I don't mean injustice sense of man woman romantic in the traditional sense Out of of Seeing romance and everything or seeing A different the layer to the world that he finds charming and tries to emulate. But of course doesn't have the capacity for it because his his luster power will always dominate as does with any sociopath innocent fascinating tonal shifts in gender mashups. In this book. Thing that you're so famous for those. I remember i remember you. Don't you don't outline so do those twists and turns relieve as you writing it and is surprise you in this one now. I don't wanna give away. What the resolution to this but in this one I knew i had to figure out in the first quarter of the book. Wh or sooner What is the explanation of why she has an age. And who is she really when when he presses or early in the book About what she does and everything and she tells him she's an assassin and he takes this to be a word game sort of game. She's playing with at that. The bar on their i. I forget if it's a first. Or second data. I think it's the second date for the first day. But the second time he sees her and and that i started having claim to be assassin. New she really was going to be something like that. But i still didn't know the explanation of why she hasn't aged all there but i thought if i don't have that by twenty five percent away through book i gotta stop and not write this book because i'm going to get three quarters of the way and still not have it and then it started coming to me Of four. that was and as soon as i got it. I thought oh this could be fun. It makes it one of those crush on books that When i first started doing this forty years ago. Publishers hated Said you can't do this. Nobody does this. And i said i i love to read and all these genres and i don't want her right and just want him so as i say it's gotten very used to the word mashups now is very common but I didn't invent that word. Sometimes it said. I ended the cross round novel. I don't know if they did or not but i will say. I certainly struggled with publishers in the early days Who didn't wanna see anything like that. But now they roll with it. Very well and My team that thomas and mercer or just been delightful about this i can. I'm some three. I'm a working towards the end of the four three books of all lung center. Another relay cross genres and they've been very enthusiastic about it. So that's that's lovely. You less few books have all been stand-alones. You prefer the standalone or do you miss writing series series. Sir you know one pain. I find it very hard. I would find it very hard to do. Is right that kind of series that i think readers actually prefer which every book is sort of a standalone it's just has the same characters and their different cases. It's like what i would call network broadcast If you're writing something that somebody wants to do as a streaming series. It'll be totally different than broadcast network. Would broadcast network would turn it into a case of the week sort of story which has lied. Never let a thomas be broadcast network show but if it could be streaming series then it would be different handled in that different way. I don't think i could write a series that everyone was a standalone case. I tend to write the series jane. Hawk where the frankenstein or raw thomas. Where there's an overriding mark And some readers. Don't like that. Because they find the series book number three and then they realize well there are things nist and they'd rather a series b one. They can get into not have missed anything so i don't think at my age i'll go on writing more series but then again if you had a character and you see the arc and you can't resist it then perhaps i will but i think mostly be standing months from now on. I like to see like never say. Never you know popular advice. a here. Lead from novelist is to write that quick first draft and then as we in your website and you kind of the opposite of that can you spend a little bit about your process. And how do you generate a clean draft. Well now. i'll preface this by saying the way i work the way. Anybody who works is the way that works for them The way i work might not work for anybody else High started out writing outlines And i don't i haven't for years not since well last. The first book did without strangers many many years ago and i've never used an outline sense And i don't do. I used to do first drafts. And i stopped doing that even before strangers and i fell into this habit of writing draft of first page over and over and over until i had that page polish to the level i could polish it to and then i would move on to page to and this was partly my way of dealing with self doubt When ahead that page. And i knew it was as close to perfect. At least as i could make then i could approach the next stage and the outcome back but once you get to seventy eight hundred pages. The doubt is less and less. Because you've got so much momentum going on and you don't feel like you've just got a bad first draft you've gotta fix Also i found working that way when you fly through something on a quick draft. You often do things that are easiest. And quickest thing that comes to your mind and then once you have the draft. There is a real temptation not to undo those bad things. Because you're going to have to do so much connects to them. And i'm just afraid with me anyway. It would lead to a lot of things that i should have cut out of that draft or found new avenues for advancing. The story line. I would not do because it would be too difficult after having that first draft finished So this has worked for me It's how i do it. And i just inch my way. The book one thing i said is One thing does that's great. Is you realize problems that are coming in the narrative as you have character for it may rise outta the character it a rise out of the story line thing maybe your age fifty and you think oh crap. There's going to be this moment. I don't know if it's thirty pages or fifty pages or sixty pages. But it's down the road somewhere and i'm going to explain this about his character or this situation and at that moment i can't imagine how i can but if future i just keep writing at this pace and polishing polishing the sub conscious is working on it and when i get to that point where now how do i ever saw off this problem i find out. I've resolved it all right. Given my three or four options to resolve it and the problem turns out not to be a problem. Answer all so. That's an advantage of taking your time to get through the story It it gives you more time to sink into it and more thoroughly understand it. Yeah you have such an amazing work ethic to. I recall you saying you work like ten eleven hours days so you read. Every day i write. I tried six days a week. i if it's right at the end of the book and things are flowing. Well i'd known to go to seven I would like to at my age. Get back to four or five because I rather not be putting in all those hours a week. but As long as you love what. You do It it's as much play as it is working and So in that sense. I'm so fortunate. I don't complain about the long hours very much and actually a ten hour day. There's a lot of people in their jobs. Put in ten hours days fifty sixty hours a week. Especially if you counting commuting and all that sort of thing pre covid So it's it's given the reward there's been in my life for us I i don't need to complain about the hours and to some extent i enjoy them. I really look at the cover of the other. Emily and devoted and elsewhere. They're so great covers. Do you have input in that process. You know. I have for years not been happy with my covers. Uh or i have not been happy with the quality of the binding the paper and a lot of things. I thought that A lot of new york publishing has gotten less quality product at more money. And it's it's been something. I was complaining about to no effect for a long time One of the things that amaze me. When i came to thomas and mercer is the quality of their bindings the quality of their paper that When i did devoted and here they had a design on the boards of the book. He take the jacket off. And there's this interesting design there. And i said wow. I mean they only do that. On rare instances in new york publishing anymore and they said well you know people whose dust jackets they damage them and we would like to think that they can still have the book on their shelf. And it's pretty when you pull it on. And i said well that's my attitude but you just don't see that anymore and then the The covers they've been devising They show me covers. I can say. There's this element. I think could be improved but for the most part covers ninety percent there when they show it to me and I thought I thought all of these been very damning thing The voted before they printed on foil was pretty cover because the colors were more. Vibrant elsewhere is a gorgeous cover and And the other. Emily is suitably creepy Without wonderful thing of the calla lilies coming up a month roots and it. It carries the two qualities of the book. So i think just stunned at how good their book design is but also how how how as a obsessive collector. I really liked it in books. That are well bound. Well designed and So it's it's been a lot of fun to work with them on on this and and not to be agitated when i see what the design is and say. Wow this is cool now. You're looking forward to it versus the pass. You might be dreading looking at the cover of doctor. So what's next for you. What are you working now. More on a book. I think the title will stay there. But i i think probably shouldn't that's in the title but it's if a little more It's you know suspense and Pretty darned spooky in some ways but it's also like life expectancy or they autonomous books. It's okay so a large element of humor and and I think i drifted that. Because the other emily has almost no humor in it and Aside from private detective that arlete speaks during the feminist few times. It's it's it's kind of dark story most of it. So i'm on now about a man who He's three days old. He is found in the middle of an arizona. Highway in a very remote part of arizona. desert Well the biggest town is town nearby called pepco and And it's nine hundred and six people and he's found in the middle of the three lane federal highway in a bassinet at the age of three And nobody knows who he is very came from and He ends up in the north and edge in phoenix And we pick up a story. Nineteen years later and He i don't want to give this away. Let's just say he. He sends his spits in a cup and sends it to something called getting to know me. Which is the equivalent of ancestry dot com or something like that and what comes back is pretty strange. And suddenly he finds himself on the run and And it's it's amusing but it's also scary. And it's kind of a semi apocalyptic story so awesome. Can't wait for that one. Well let's see. It's a lot discovered. I bit off a lot. I'm having trouble chewing it but we'll see right. Well thank you so much for taking time to talk to us. And tell us about your work and the other emily Very excited A great book in people should go out and get it right now. Thank you don't have to say have a good day. Thank you take care bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of meet the thriller author. If you have a moment please check out. Thrilling reads dot com forward slash links. Where you'll be able to rate and review this podcast or simply rate this podcast wherever it is that. You're listening to it. via apple podcasts. Spotify google podcasts. Audible amazon music. Whichever podcast app you prefer Please take a moment to rate. This podcast is the best way to help. Other fans of a mystery and thriller books to find the podcast and it helps me get the word out and so the best way to support the podcast. So i do appreciate that. And if you're interested you can join. My thrilling reads mailing list. You'll find the snl forum at dot com slash links once he subscribed for free. You'll be notified about discounts and deals on great books in the mystery thriller and crime fiction. Jonynas you'll also find my social media links and my author website over at dot com force links so check it out and see. Hi all right take care and stay safe until we meet again. On the next episode of meet the thriller author.

David thorne Emily ronnie lee jessop dean kootz dean coons dean peterson jane hawk dean koontz thomas fbi Peterson new york times hershey allen mercer mama david Sir
18: The Choir Boy

Murder In Alliance

45:45 min | 3 weeks ago

18: The Choir Boy

"Have you all heard what bob rough is up to twenty twenty one. And if you don't know who he is you absolutely should because he's one of my good friends and he's the host of the hit true crime podcast truth and justice and bob has just launched a new show that i am obsessed with in fact. I was a guest on his new show. It's a great concept you need to check it out. It's called true crime binch celebrities interviews celebrities will. This is a true crime celebrity interviewing other. True crime hod casters. It's a great way to get to know the host that you already love and discover new. Shows that you might be unaware of. Bob has a way of getting his guests to open up for example. Did you know that pain. Lindsey was in a boy band before creating up vanished. Learn about these. Podcasts hosts personal lives their production. And there's always a discussion about a case of the week. Bob has already released over fifty great episodes with fantastic guests including myself. So if you want to know more about me go check out my episode of true crime bench and listen to the mall. It's really fabulous. I love bob download and subscribe to true crime bench to day. Wherever you get your new episodes drop every wednesday. Check it out and you might just find your next true crime binge hail. I know you're used to explicit language in this podcast. But i wanted to give a fair heads up that this episode has more than usual. The tape you're going to hear in this episode is us processing in real time. What is going on a lot of it is shocking and frustrating. See here a real time emotions and a lot of that could be offensive language so just a fair warning and another warning. I've been sick for about a month and it's very difficult for me to talk so. Please bear with me if i sound congested previously on murder alliance. Is there any version of the story. that is he's sticking to. It's helpful to answer boyfriend at the time we saw in there that night. We know that night time if david did this and and you didn't. And you're protecting him or whatever the we need to know that he this like bumbling idiot that seems like he's been portrayed us. How confident are you. Joe had made mention his friend. David wanted his wife field. Both for it happened. This is murder and alliance an active investigation into who killed a on lane. I'm maggie freely And john hardin. And danny wexler the private investigators weighing whether to take this case had a head spinning amount of information to process after meeting with joe wilkes the man who testified he'd been hired to kill. You've on lane in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine so bring me up to speed on this four. Our prison interview that i couldn't attend. They weren't even sure where to begin. So i got the smaller details out of the way their overall impressions of joe and what he said about his friend. David thorne who in the past he said hired him to kill yvonne and then we got what happened. At least what. Joe says happened this time. Joe told them that march thirty first between three and five. Pm one of the inox dropped him off at the mall and he walked to yvonne's not to kill her but to proposition her for sex. Now we had heard this before. Joe has said he did this however he said when he got there she was already dead. But that's not what he said this time this time. He said that when he arrived he showed her a hundred dollar bill and told her he had a room at the comfort. In he said vaughn said she'd come by later and so he left. He walked back to the mall. And that's when he saw rose and chris presumably jill. Although he doesn't remember jill and then walk. Joe says the next thing he remembers he was in the shower at the inox the next morning april first. He said he has no idea what happened. After he saw rose and chris as in joe blacked out. There is a chunk of memory flout out missing from his brain. He said he has no idea what happened. The entirety of the night. That a woman he just propositioned for sex was murdered. Believe he can't remember. Do you think you'd i think he really doesn't know i think he really doesn't remember now. Has he suppressed. That subconsciously or consciously quite possibly and this whole thing was incredible. Could it be the reason. Joe has told so many different stories is because he just can't remember maybe his stories were all over the place because he thought no one would believe him if he said he had amnesia for fourteen hours so he filled in the blanks with whatever theory seemed to best fit to him at that moment and sure it would be so easy to just brush off joe as he's lying that he knows what happened that night but he just doesn't want to admit it i of course wouldn't discount that but i also don't want to knee jerk dismiss. What he's saying is a lie. Because i know that trauma blackouts are a real thing. People suppress painful memories as a survival technique. People can even make up memories for example. Charles ericsson ericsson confessed to a murder that he truly believed. He committed a belief he held onto even after his own. Defendant was exonerated in the case. It now twenty years after the murder of a journalist. He's adamant that his confession was an effort to fill in the missing gaps of a drunken blackout. This stuff happens. It sounds crazy but it's not unheard of the brain is a funny thing especially when it comes to handling trauma so maybe the story of joe going back over there and seeing her dead does have some truth to it. Maybe he saw her dead body and completely locked in. Was there this. i have some coming over. i'll meet you later Yeah yeah yeah. So that person could have killed her could have. Who was that person said. If i knew that i wouldn't still be sitting here right now. She's according to him. He went there trump position. she said. Okay i will meet you at the hotel. I got someone coming over now. And he goes back to the hotel and sees rose interest. That's this voice. I've got an eight. No it was basically okay. I'll be like okay so she didn't say right. But then at some point we did references statement pullman that he said that the pullman. He's talking about dwayne polman. The investigative reporter you've heard from in previous episodes i don't think he's specifically remembered saying that the palm. But that's how we got to. Who could that have been. He said if. I knew that we wouldn't be sitting around part of me feels. He would've been screaming from the rooftops for a long time. If that was really the kids there was. I saw her at five. O'clock at her out was coming over. She made me leave because someone was coming over to softly. Introduces to newspaper or into us. You would think if. I back on smart as i am. I'd be like listen. I don't you think this author. She told me leave somebody. Who's coming to or fucking else. You find your painter fuck kaos. There's your killer the did he seem frustrated because it seemed like a convenient lapse it. He's frustrated by did see. Mikey was he was using it to his really thinking. Struggles to find what's true wants and it's a lot because of memories. You know joe lettuce. No he the trauma he has endured free prison. Life and post through prison. Lives does in fact his recollection. They said they felt. Joe was trying desperately to help them figure out what had happened that night because they said he seemed to realize that they weren't just wanting david to get a fair shot they wanted jodi get one two and joe never felt like. He stood a chance after he was brought in for questioning. Y'all daily harvest is back. And i am so happy there. One of my sponsors. Because i am obsessed with daily harvest because my is always docked. Delicious options are ready in minutes. 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Waste seriously if you have not checked out daily harvest yet you must must do it. Go to daily harvest dot com and enter code maggie to get twenty five dollars off your first box. You get so much food. There's no reason not to try this code maggie for twenty five dollars off your first box at daily harvest. Dot com daily harvest dot com. Seriously guys just try it. Here's my question. Did he think it was weird. The next morning that he doesn't remember anything oily yes he thinks is weird. I mean it is. I don't. I'm not trying to get too far out there but almost wonder if somebody drug me and i did not know around but does he feel like you really wanted junior. Give us his best. Yeah yeah i think so too. His love that was he wanted to oppress wants to fight for. The problem is us with her at least where he is today. Yeah i mean he was out of it today. A money was at an extra out of pocket used. You're gonna pay for the sex but not knowing that is last we we presented. We're your best shot at ever. Yeah i mean he's he's simply said. I know i know pretty much saying my life is in your hands after have. Yeah how shearing indian aunt's house proposition. That's until we find the barter that. Dan gave a clue till we find him. That's insurmountable right. Yeah so if this is true. That joe was at the house that does nothing to help him or david and of course prosecutors would use to say ha si now he even admits to being at the scene of the crime and then think of the forensic testing that david so desperately wants the original thinking. Was that if david could get joe to fight for that testing and the results cleared joe. It would obviously clear david. But if joe was at you vons house that night. Maybe he did leave. Dna somewhere in the house. Although joe didn't seem too worried about that does he wants evidence. Tested absolutely absolutely is the. We mentioned that advances in dna testing since last year. In the last couple of decades we reiterated that there was a fingerprint on on a longer knife of that came from her kitchen from avant kitchen. We already tested against him. Do already tested against him. But we talked about maybe some huge some technological advances in even fingerprint technology since then and he is not worried about anything being tested overheats all said tested all. Let's go and maybe do didn't do it like he said. And maybe the testing would implicate someone else but you have to admit. It's almost convenient now. That he says he was there that night. If the testing came back pointing at him he can say yeah already told you. I was in the house so by placing himself there. He preemptively explains away results. The proof he was there. And if that's the case he could simply say well. I've been in the house before that actually doesn't prove anything but what if the trauma that triggered the blackout was caused by joe actually killing on and we have to weigh the possibility that joe did do it but if he did how can. We be sure that it was at david's request. What or the. She insists this kind man snaps because he just doesn't wanna have sex with him. I don't know. I mean that's one of the possibilities that we have to artemis like i feel like that's definitely also he goes to the trouble. This room shoes easy. He's finally medicating so she doesn't show she doesn't show. He's fucking feuds here. He isn't hotel room by south down. This last box like huber. We've never heard of him. Getting mad. fistfights either goes back down there to confront or about not showing up or goes back down there to confront about not show bought or and wakes up and remember we know. Joe got in the fistfight with chris campbell. But that's a long way off for murder and we've not found anything else. About joe to confirm he may be violent. So is the only reason he would've killed yvonne. Because david told him to. The blackout is so confusing. Maybe he really did walk in on her dead and blacked out thirty pocketed in. Never let it out subconsciously ministers so very he's not going to go he's not gonna retrieve is desired. I think maybe in his mind. He's afraid maybe he has to be one hell and while we're processing there was something strange that stuck out to john and danny in the four hours they were with joe about event stuff. I could not wait word. The words i mean we can't go verbatim now but it was. It was this man. Yeah vinnie was Different whatever he just really felt for him. Because of this that that was the kid was out. Threats vinnie. The four year old was the one kid that night that was out and about in the house who could have seen the killer and his mother's dead body this that house once joe random two or three times and that's david son so it wasn't like he hasn't relationship vinnie like the cameras did. Did the cameron spares. So it wasn't like he had that connection with other adults did. And that's what was so hustling joke about. I thought he'd only met her out. Vide- what a form. I thought it. Was you two three four times. Whatever but i hear you on that a real possibility that he's just so guilty about vinnie being the one running around in the house also do think it's possible that he just had a soft spot because of any was the different one and so we don't know someone had dressed vinnie and taken care of him. It's one of the oddities in this case that we may never know what type of person walks into a woman's house violently. Kills her while her children are home but then takes time to dress. A special needs child wandering about the house. Maybe the type of person who really loved kids and felt bad about what he wanted done to their mother especially in light of his own abusive childhood to try to make sense of all this. We carefully laid out the timeline. That joe gave john and danny and we pretty quickly realized it was bullshit. There was no way. Joe was dropped off at the mall. That early between three to five. We know joe was at the inaugural at five. Pm with david. And the lion cub and brent. Enoch took him to do a job and dropped him off the mall at eight pm. Joe david and the inox all agree. That's where everyone was five. Pm this was also testified to at trial. So why is joe now saying he was dropped off between three and five. Pm when everything has always pointed to the drop off being at eight pm is his memory. This unreliable two decades later or is he lying to we have net steps right now tower. You feeling what are you thinking. That's that's it's the law these if it was if it was easy we would all fly in with our camera crew and do a three day. Investigation talked for people. We talked to eight people that they work till midnight or one o'clock and then we have to decompress and revisit all the bits of information and say. How does this puzzle fit together. And that's the challenge on how we proceed is because there are things that joe joe just not remember is bad as he wants to he. He goes to bed every night with the full recognition. That von latest hurt. Death is recent that he's sleeping in that bach and in the morning each warden when he wakes up he has still full. Recognition or murder is reason. He's waking up. Yeah even if he did not do it right. Her death is what led to him being so dreams. Visions hopes reliving memories reminiscent whatever it may be the autopsy photos the trial civil trial reporters investigators the advocates for david. Everything that he's experienced. It's very hard for him to remember. What's real and what's not. I can't imagine he has been bombarded with information in the years since and theories and you know all kinds of things that have been communicated to him strongly and he he just admits they're just tons of. I don't know if that's what somebody told me. Or that's what happened in the car. We talked about all this. You were confused sometimes emotional. Our thoughts were all over the place. There was so much to contemplate. It's not like peeling an onion. It's not just about removing layers. We don't even know which of these layers are real and which are complete lies and if they're lies. We don't know why this was more like trying to build a house on quicksand. We just couldn't figure out our footing to even start the foundation. So let's say. Joe is making up the blackout. So he doesn't have to answer any questions about what happened that night. Maybe it's a hail. Mary pass and he simply hoping that. Dna happens to show someone else and if it doesn't he can always say well. I told you. I was there that night and was confused on times or maybe joe and david did commit this murder together. After all fourteen hour amnesia would be pretty convenient for him and then john finally says it sitting here right now. I think that joe tough just to get the word out to say not true. What we believe is very plausible. I'll yeah is true. After processing in the car. John landed on what he thinks is the truth the joe was involved and i see why he thinks that but even if joe was involved i wonder whether someone else could have been there too. She had enough traffic about placed for this to have been a house with that kind of may have. That's right. god. Dang tally of of store. Shen sam rose's statement. Chris drift we. We all agree that this is a violent scene. I didn't like even in a blackout. I don't know of. Joe had that rage. I have no idea what was it. I don't know. And i would love an expert to tell me. They've ever seen not like rage like that. Come out in a blackout boy. The old saying this isn't clinical blackout. But i'm seeing red. You're so damn mad that you can't just okay so now let's see the jury got it right all along. Let's say joe was involved. Joe was always a loose cannon. Even david said there's always a possibility. Joe was involved. But that doesn't mean david was believe him when he says david's not involved a star tough you know i mean there's there's listen. There's a lot of scenarios that are possible right now to yes. I believe him. But there's still some things that some questions that need to be answered brought up earlier. Yeah that's that's right. I mean joe understands or believes That in order for one of them to get out. They both need to get out. is belief forevermore lately intertwined. Both of it out are both. Don't he feels like making. David look good and him look bad does nothing for david making him look good to make david look bad. Does nothing for either one. Is he his view truly is right or wrong. View really yes. What happens to me will happen day or vice versa pretty much. Yeah yeah joe. Believing that he and david her joined israel motivation for him to protect david. If david did hire him to do this fully ver i go back to. And that's just a scenario that we have to consider i do. I still looking back at. Sam found her to be pretty damn crowd lost. The holidays are coming up. And if you're looking for a gift for a special someone check out anna. Louisa in louisa is a carbon neutral jewelry brand. They create fine jewelry starting with recycled materials. Whenever possible this is truly amazing. they have exceptional quality. And it's all sustainable. So if you need a gift for someone you can get ten percent off if you go to an a. l. u. i s. a. dot com slash alliance and use code alliance at checkout. I was with my mom the other day and she was wearing this super sleek beautiful gold bracelet that i got for her. Craftsmanship is amazing and it really just stood out. I was like oh my gosh mom the bracelet and got for you. It looked amazing on her and not only did it look good but it made me feel good to know that it was created with the earth and minds and i also know that something that my mom loves. So can you get ten percent off at checkout if you go to an a. l. u. i s. a. dot com slash alliance to treat yourself or that special someone and use code alliance at checkout in. Louise's jewelry is timeless and affordable. Starting at just thirty nine dollars. I get comments. All the time on my annalisa jewelry and i love telling people that it's affordable and sustainable just go to ana luisa dot com slash alliance to get ten percent off all products using code alliance. It was just all so much to take in going into this investigation thinking one thing and having the information start to lay out something different. If joe was involved it really raises. The question was david to. It makes the possibility much greater. Then the guys turn the table and asked me where my head with that like. I'm just like i don't know. I feel like i like tough. I feel doubt emotional. I don't know. I feel really emotional. Word people's lives seized. That's normal. i don't. I have no regrets. This spent so much time. Great journey for us. And it's not over okay. I'm not even there. The towel is still in the end. The trainer's bench. We're not throwing it in. Yeah we have work to do everybody that we have talked to everything that we have learned everything that that has every direction that we've been pointed in for the most part has shown. This is a worthy case to investigate. There was enough enough damage done in this investigation to warrant us. Being there the commitment we all made to this. Yeah fill stupidity. No no no. No no feel snoopy. It's a worthy case to investigate. So i have no regrets but worthy cases sometimes don't pan out to be an innocence case. Yeah yeah he's just thinking about ceo. I don't wanna have to say to her. I know maggie that the whole thought of all that makes me really sad to. We're not even there. We ain't talking to sue you. We're not there we're fighters all of us reuter winterless right or wrong. We're fighting furthest. This get to the answers. But if i'm being honest. I wasn't ready to deal with every possible. Answer especially not this one. I'm just like what if david did this. It's a fair question maggie. I don't think he did now. I'm really like what if he did and are just invested all of this. It's just like it's my credibility. I think it's just really hard. Believe in my heart desire my mind gut says he didn't but there are some real issues with this. Yeah i'm just trying to reckon without right now. I know i know believe me. I know it turns out worst case scenario. We were wrong. David do have a role in this. In any way we at least go to bed. Say we gave it everything we had more than any other motherfuckers. Anyone else we know at the end we gave it. The best fought the best fight he could have had. I haven't given up david or joe. We have to keep trudging on body-blows. Come in every investigation right especially twenty two year old murder investigations. Yeah yeah this. Is you know this is a this is not down with a three count for sure. That's where do we go. I mean what are we. What are we even doing. It's four o'clock what are we doing. We decided to pack it in for the day we had planned to keep working after the prison interview but afterwards we were all to drained and confused. We weren't going to hunt down amy again or try the inox or charlie tool it was time to take a break to hit the hotel bar and clear our heads and of course if you know me. I'm not much of a head clearer in a situation like this and we sat at the bar pouring through documents and something we found was jarring to say the least. When i got the case file from sue there was a folder transcripts of police interviews and so far every interview it looked for that i knew should be in there was in there and eventually when i got the actual taped audio from the da's office there were a few audio interviews. That didn't have transcripts. And so i never knew that these existed and one included a woman named angie. I'm leaving her last name out for privacy. She didn't seem significant. Surname hadn't come up in any of the incident reports. And i don't remember david or sue ever mentioning her so she seemed peripheral and i put off listening to her interview until now we were sitting at the bar this night and we came across a police. Report buried in the files. Unclear if police approached. Angie angie approach them but turned out. Angie had once been one of david's girlfriends and she said they dated for about five years in the early nineties. They broke up around ninety five right before he met you. Von and. here's what angie told detective. Detective bud samson about david to me on on the harvey treated you in some of the happens day. He will really me very aggressive. Very one incidents would be a big fight. Were driving down the road in separately vehicles out. His car pony gone on me. Shot all four times in my car to me that. If i don't start the fucking car is blow my head off so i did talk the car. The neighbors screaming frantically call the cops. Because he's gonna kill me. Another incident would be when we got another big site and he had me down on the bed strangling me choking me actually feel my moving hole. I take away from me. And then she proceeded to tell numerous other stories of violence. David smashing her face into a steering wheel by her banana clip and then fighting with her dad. The allegations are upsetting in. The full audio is on patron listening to it at the bar was downright chilling. I mean everything. We'd heard about david up until this made him sound like a choirboy saw nineteen ninety nine a and i were gonna hair salon and he come into my salon to get his haircut. And we'll talk to me about wanting custody of his son and then he had only as an unfit mother so that he could get and this is at least the fourth person independent of everybody else saying david wanted custody remember. David told me that no. He was fine with shared custody. He and you von were getting along and even hooking up and he didn't mind paying child support. But this tape of. Angie painted a picture of david that was completely different than what we've seen so far. This david was a hot head. Someone who if our accounts are true could be violent towards women and a separate friend of david's told john and danny about incidents of him losing his temper particularly road rage incidents break checking people and getting an altercation on the road. The friend said that once a guy got out of his car and started yelling at david. David grabbed him by the lip and drove off. It's unclear if he actually dragged the guy down. the road or of his lip slipped. We also found a police report from nineteen ninety seven in which david paid a six hundred and forty dollars fine for smashing a car windshield during another altercation. Although david said he was not the smasher and a paid the charge because he was a nice guy. But everyone who was there including joe wilkes said that david was involved in some kind of road rage incident when all this went down. Even angie recounts a few other incidents tell me about the snakes continue house probably about april nineteen ninety two and still probably thirteen snakes from this the road in portage county him and other time he had he and one of his friends have gone to mr funds. Costume shop can find masks so they could break into this woman's house at gun point. Duct tape Mouth in her arms and offer fifty. It's hard to find out about the names bragging about it when i the canals and we tried to find a police report from this but we couldn't now one down with so few details but this was a lot of damaging descriptions vivid ones like the banana clip and the masks. And now we're suddenly adding everything up and because of the interview with joe are questions about whether he was maybe involved after all. We started looking through an entirely different lens at all of this. We're seeing a david who's completely different from the david. I've known for the past two years. You heard about our plan thing. Only name any cable hit. This reminds me of what you vons. Dad's sherman said in court to david after the trial quote. We didn't hear from people who knew you to be violent at the time we only heard from family and friends and i can't help but wonder if there are other people with stories like these that we've just not heard from europe to me. Is that true by seven months day after the view him. Even how when you don't have any type of relationships. Are you surprised. David did not do this murder himself. They didn't pay the next day. We went to angie's house to ask about her allegations. We couldn't return person but we did get a phone call while in the car. He was angie's husband. He said last time she had to revisit this. She had a complete meltdown. And she just doesn't wanna talk about it anymore. she's. He said that he did speak with her today. Said that everything that she said in that police report did happen and traumatized her and she stands by everything that she said so once he got to the airport. Another call came in to john. And danny. i wasn't able to record it because we had all of our luggage. And i wasn't ready to but it was a man calling on behalf of somebody. This was a strange call. He didn't use names. And i have no idea what his connection is to the case. Though i got the impression he was trying to imply that he was legal aid to amy. David's girlfriend. After you von the one who supposedly didn't like yvonne and who according to samson have been investigated as a possible accomplice this man let it be known that the card john and danny had left in the door was received and she had no interest in speaking or anything to add not only that he warned to be careful about bringing amy up in the podcast which we interpreted as a lawsuit threat. She was not going to help us. We all went to our respective homes processed for a few weeks and then decided it was time for john and danny to finally see david in person. They always said they'd have a stern come to jesus chat with david and i wasn't totally clear on what that meant. I assumed they'd be asking the same questions myself and others had asked in the past and david would just give the same answers. And i wasn't even going to go for that because again. I just figured it was what i already knew but now after all that has transpired i decided i needed to be there in ohio with john and danny to learn as quickly as possible. What david had to say about all of these unsettling revelations. We had so many questions coming up next time on murder in alliance that have never been asked of him. Who was he really. And i'm not. I don't want him to try to bullshit us. You know when you leave an interview and you feel like you've shared more information than the person who's fighting for their life. There's a reason behind. And i said a point blank. Did that happen. No and then he changes subject pretty quickly man than it. Stern is turning off. That's fine you know. We know memories aren't tape recorders. Just tell us what you do remember. He left out. He was not going to bring up the fact that he was with. Joe at the close Mr mr tool charlie tool. Y'all if you like this show fleas. Consider joining the unjust and unsolved patriot. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please please. Rate emmer view the more reviews the more attention and the more likely. We're going to get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by need freely with editorial consulting from amber hunt erin. Case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to in alliance dot com. You can find murderer on alliance on twitter and instagram at murder underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com.

joe david Joe vinnie maggie yvonne joe wilkes bob rough john hardin danny wexler David thorne Charles ericsson dwayne polman joe lettuce jill slash alliance David amnesia vons house
15: The Star Witness

Murder In Alliance

33:45 min | Last month

15: The Star Witness

"Y'all if you love murdering alliance and unjust and unsolved. You will love wrongful conviction podcasts. They are raw absolutely riveting with over thirty million downloads wrongful conviction. Podcasts aren't just chart-topping entries and the growing list of true crime. Podcast rather they are social justice inaction featuring stories about an interviews with the men and women who've spent decades behind bars for crimes. They maintain they did not commit wrongful conviction. Podcast as more than simply tell their stories. The show will inspire you to learn more and get involved again if you love murderer and alliance. An unjust unsolved unsolved. Listen to wrongful conviction podcasts. Wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Previously murder alliance the murder of a mother of five in her own home stunt. The small town of alliance. Ohio twenty-six-year-old yvonne link found in a pool of her own blood. This case is filled with sex secrets and surprises david. There because david was taking martial arts that at night. He says they've put him in a room and they change him. Do the wall spit on him and they told him that they wanted him to confess. Bread turkey a nationally. No criminal forensics expert picked apart what he calls a botched case. That is the one key part of this case. Just never outright with me like didn't the prosecution over so it makes you feel like there's more to the story supposedly she told let's block it's mother's at the youngest child shady. She had come to. You seem pissed off the wrong person you know in terms of the police force mike. God i had eight or nine days so officers. Who will protect sexual partners. There's a full blown declaration that they went after three rounds of david's they approach i and tried to co worst them into testifying against dave. He was identified early focused on and then railroaded into prison by the trump issued. I'm done met the killer. And i know where he is and i suspect he's still killing. And yes he's a cop. This case has absolutely conserved just about everyone who has touched it case hard to this is murder alliance an active investigation into who killed of on lane. I'm monkey freeling at this point. I've been in touch with david thorne for nearly two years. David has been in prison for twenty two years for allegedly murdering his ex girlfriend yvonne lane on march thirty first nineteen ninety nine since then david has adamantly proclaimed his innocence and the bizarre murder case and conviction has been featured on multiple news tv e programs and so for the past two years. I have been consumed like dwayne poelman. Warned would happen and so i decided to finally enlist the help of professional private investigators. John harden danny wexler and jason baldwin from the west memphis three and his organization proclaimed justice so back on the ground in ohio. We continued our search for chris. Campbell remember john. And danny thought rose and chris were the most key people in this entire investigation chris and his girlfriend rose. Were the star witnesses at trial. Twenty-three-year-old rose an twenty one year old. Chris both testified at trial. They said they saw joe at the carnation mall around closing. They said he told them he was in town for a job and they said that job was to kill a girl. The card joe allegedly wrote his phone number on for. Chris was presented at trial to prove that joe was there with them the native the murder and at this point. We don't really question that they were all there together but what happened while they were there is what we wonder about by trial three months after the murder some details of what they remembered changed from what they'd set in their initial statements and then a bit more change between those statements. The time they took the stand six months after that rose initially said joe was in white pants and a white track jacket by trial. The pants were black. Rose also said that. The knife that joe showed them was definitely not a pocket knife. She said it was an eight inch knife in a sheath by trial it was a pocket knife. We tried to find rose on our first trip because we had many questions about her statement. We wanted to know why it changed and also about something. She told police in her tape statement. Because i'm scared for my life. Because chris campbell for me if i said anything he met me. And that's why i've been scared. His oliver nagai as race. People do things when they're scared. Like sometimes people lie and we wondered. was it possible. She lied if she did. Was it out of fear. We did find rose but she refused to talk. She texted that. She's not interested in speaking and she stands by her trial testimony. She said nothing has changed and there were other questions. To chris's statement differed from roses. Chris did say that. Joe told him he was in town to do a job to kill a girl like rose said but remember rose said that joe said some guy paid them to do it while chris said something different a a. I remember chris before this encounter. They went to school together and just a few months before the murder the to got in a fight the fight that got joe kicked out of school and plus the something else. We just couldn't get over. The joe had told sue. David's wife in one of their first phone calls in the early two thousands pretty much. He was quote pretty much racist. Chris is black so we've always wondered whether that plus the possible bad blood that led to. This fight was enough to give chris motive to lie about joe. If we talked to chris and he said yes i lied. That would be a huge breakthrough in david's case so we had to find chris. Ready freddy chris. Campbell's up to last time we tried. If you remember we found his ex girlfriend how long. How long has he been gone two weeks or so broke up with him anyway. Because he's yeah. Chris axe said he was with a new girl. Now and could be anywhere. Wasn't driving these days star dr driving driving something. The girls is whatever whatever to has or whatever and this next trip we still don't have an address. But we had the name and address of chris's ex wife and the mother of one of his kids. Supposedly hidden disgusts the whole case with her. She should definitely give us a perspective of him. He's the mud. she's says she's the mother of his children. Fifteen minutes away. We had heard that while they're together. She asked chris about what was going on when people kept coming to talk to him. A chris said he couldn't tell the truth because he was terrified that quote they would kill him. It's unclear to everyone who they are so we had to confirm this for ourselves lemmings john. We're looking for investigator. We're looking at a case from a long time ago. So we're looking into the von lane case and we believe that chris campbell. Who you knew has some information about. We're just wanted to visit with you about chris. What he had to say about it. Do you remember anything about that. Candidate never married that girl or whatever. Yeah did he say that like the cops did he make any comments about the cops asking or telling him or coercing him making statements or anything like that it will but yeah i mean like we're divorced so i don't know well we we didn't think you guys were together but we did think that at some point in the relationship shortly after all this happened that maybe he had discussed it with you word yeah. Yeah chris those. But he's afraid if he's niches he'll die chris's ex wife said of course. She asked him about what was going on over here. You know like what happened has a wife. I'm negative just you're gonna tell me something. And that's all the information he gave me like. He didn't do a and he didn't talk to you about any details of it at all scared dies somebody out there the murderers out here and i think that i ever did it. Crisis come on. Chris knows who actually really did get it out of them okay. so he knows who actually committed. the murder was known and grown up with but if we put the murderer away then. He can't get to chris because he's away right testify all cat. I don't i don't know what happened. I don't know i wasn't there but like scare chris. How often do you see him to kim. Oh so regularly right well. We had made an attempt to locating before. And we st louis. Okay okay. now his working on harrison but he gets off at five so around. Six o'clock okay. This seemed huge. We had to find chris. What if he told us he lied on the stand. I mean why was his ex. So sure that joe was innocent. Something i think a lot of us. Forget when you know. 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Mia and use code mia chew save nearly fifty percent off your starter. Box with free shipping. That's cap person dot com slash. Mia code m. i a to get nearly fifty percent off your starter box with free shipping cat person dot com slash m. I a code. Am i a so finally an address. We left to go. Wait for chris to get off. Work spoken attic. It's on bohm's after about twenty minutes of waiting. We spotted someone. And they matched chris's description walking towards the address house for him across the road walker evans. He's right by their house right now. There is he's crossings. have you see. Yes seen those. That's it maybe probably. I'm to go with probably right now about to go with likely now. I'm going definitely focus ass all the way from harrison. That's funny. I just looked up out of corn. And there's a dude walking. We've really almost just missed that. The man we were watching walked into chris's house and we basically had confirmation that this was him damn great if we just stopped that i know other than it might have pissed him off. He wants to get out. Yeah loyal we let him settle the hot as walk. Fuck yeah man. After about another twenty minutes. Danny and john decided to go knock. How're you doing you. Chris chris. I'm daily wax for this is john. Hart was hoping. I could have made to talk to you. Glory so we work for an innocence project. Do their normal spiel. What has happened is. There's been a resurgence of attention on the case. So we're trying to get out in front of it and we feel like there's going to be information. The events involving joe wilkes and his trip to the i guess it was a mall. Visit or alleged mall visiting which he had encountered. You've is just not to put you in the middle of anything but we feel like we've got a new path. We feel like both of these guys are innocent but part of that is going and figuring out who really was responsible at this point. I was still waiting in the car watching from the road. I had no idea if chris was going to flip on them or slam the door in their faces but he did neither of those and he actually invited them in and joe. What was your relationship. Joe like only really yeah. What in school or in the neighborhood or we were in mesa. What was he like. we haven't met him. We've heard that he's at a lower level mentally cognitively so but we don't know that we haven't spoken to him so Caring really just wanted to print. And that's what. I was twelve hours france so you to stay in the house and things. He's really respectful when he was just a good kid. Does had a a really fucked up background. They went on to talk about joe and their relationship. The ever think of joe is a racist. No no okay. Because he's we that's why we feel like he's he would be let off a cliff if he if someone. He looked up to tolling to jump off the cliff so one of his narratives was you and him hated each other because he was. He's he's verbatim. This is what he said. I'm i was pretty much a racist and he knew it. You're either are you're not. We're like pretty much. That's not something you're on the fence on right now that we know you're rizzoli frigate friend. Tom is a matter of your purple. He needed a friend right. Wow so crazy. So that motive. We came up with. Chris to lie was pretty much blown out of the water. But maybe chris was an informant and was given a deal to lie. There were some things that we came across. That made us think this for one. Chris was arrested july sixteenth for drug possession. This was just two days after. Joe was brought in for questioning on july fourteenth. Chris was then held until after trial and then released for time served. So did you think it was weird that right after i think it was the fourteenth of july david thorne and then two days later they arrest you in the park for putting your hand in your pocket. You remember. that wasn't that odd odd to us because always see are the documents and then they tried to keep you in jail and then when the trial is over and they're convicted they give you time served and you're done. What do you think that was about. I wanted to take joe down so and knowledge our last one to talk to me. And i do remember that detector to. I can't remember his name. He kept saying your favorite. They were like you anything. Yeah also odd and sitting in the car listening to all this. I couldn't help. But think. Chris had to have gotten a deal. And if that was the case the prosecution would have had to disclose that and they didn't so that would be huge for david's case. This summer has been one of the most hectic and crazy summers of my life. It was definitely not hot back summer between traveling back and forth to ohio and everyone trying to get all their weddings in after cova. It's just been hectic and so when my brain needs to turn off. I pick up best fiends. It is a match three puzzle game and it's not just one of these match three move on. You actually collect cute characters as you go. And my favorite is vincent the mov. It's a great way to turn off your brain and tune out. I am on level. Four hundred seventy four. And i cannot stop it is so relaxing and one of the only ways to slow down and turn off my brain and i can pick it up and put it down anytime i want. And that's probably why there are a hundred million downloads of best beans. And the best part is it's free to download download the five star rated puzzle game vest. Fiends free two day on the app store or google play. That's friends without the are best scenes. Did they ever like lean on you to say something like they need your help and and and they'll do something for you if you have something to them the truth so the police never leaned on you. Tell them something that wasn't true. Did they ask you to do that. do they. Ask you to fill some holes for them with things that you didn't think we're right now. Chris never admit to this happening getting a deal or being an informant. We used all of our confidential sources to figure this out and no one could find out if he was in fact they said likely the opposite based on how many times he'd been arrested and actually did the time and also christie's original statement was july ninth and he wasn't arrested until a week later on the sixteenth when he was held until after trial so to us. This meant that the original statement could not have been coerced for a deal related to the arrest. Because he wasn't arrested until weeks later and crisis statement just didn't change between the first time he gave it and when he took the stand so we put all of this to bed as best that we could. The chris was no format or got a deal. We have no reason to doubt his original statement though. We did want to ask. Chris why rose and his statements didn't exactly up rose. Some guy had hired joe to kill yvonne. The you had said in your initial thing. That joe told you his girlfriend. His girlfriend had sent him to do the job. That was a big variance right. There's a big difference between guy paid me off to in your view. Would joe had said was that his girlfriend had sent him to do the job. His girlfriend is that ring a bell or first. So he's saying maybe the dues girlfriend hired him okay. You didn't have a girl tuesday. chris didn't weaver. He said the same thing. He told police in his original statements. The joe said a girlfriend put him up to. The murder was never cleared. Chris whose girlfriend but he did know. Joe didn't have a girlfriend. And despite this chris also told danny john that would joe told him at the mall. Just didn't make sense. Say that he didn't tell you what i know. I can tell you what he told me that. I can also tell you what feel bad news brown. Exactly all on steaks yes white. Jogging suit all like four point two mile street. Yeah tonight. He showed me and they show that match remember. Rose originally said it was an eight inch knife in a sheath and by the time of trial. The police were showing rose and chris a folding pocket knife on the stand kmart for sunday night and i showed him tonight. The folding fact. I said joe killed that. I'm chris said. The knife was a folding knife like his original statement. So if. Chris said he told the truth. Could it be that. Maybe he mixed up his days. How sure are you that it was that same day the day before she was actually killed because that night we talked to him and then the very next morning rose heard about it and immediately sat on the cop so the next day. Yeah that that namibia right. Yeah yeah that's all she called but it was the next day that we heard about it. They asked him to walk them through that night. We walked in. There is seen him in the food court at what he was doing here. I said your job to do. But what did he say what the job to do was we talked by. I am us right in. Your buddy typically comes out of his mouth right so he did say that. I'm pretty sure that he probably got offered that. Yeah i mean he was broke. Paid them enough money to buy spouses. 'cause i got him meru everything. Chris said to us matched his original story. And even though. Chris was adamant joe told him he was there to kill a girl and even though a girl did in fact get murdered that night. Chris doesn't believe that is the killer off is but we don't do. I believe he was. Joe loves good. Yeah zone wouldn't do that in front of no kids anywhere. Yeah like doesn't add up. It doesn't rose by the cops thing. Yeah i'm already scared to begin with. Yeah since already scared yeah. We broke up after that. Yes we will you know for certain groups. Yeah yeah. I remember after after she called cop. Whatever our partners yeah yeah. Chris said he thought rose was coached. But he doesn't know for sure and we don't know either we don't know why they're stories differ by the knives are different and why who hired. Who was different. And we won't know since rose won't talk so finally they ask chris about what his ex wife said. You wanna say anything to her because you worried about something happening to you. You said what you knew that that ring any bells. Yes they have. How will we know that way. D. know anything about the cops that may have now full transparency. It occurred to me that. Chris could be inclined to stick to his original story just to avoid any kind of perjury charge. I mean to me. The guy is well-versed with the law considering all his run ins and he certainly not stupid and he just said if he's afraid of anyone it's the cops but again we have to go with what we have and we have no evidence to the contrary and so for to believe chris that he didn't know who did this. Joe said he was there to kill a girl and sure may be rose was coached because she was scared but that the general story from both of them that joe told them he was there to kill a girl or somebody is true. Then who would that. Somebody be crystal. John and danny got in hindsight. He thinks he must have meant that. Joe was asked by some guy's girlfriend do the job because joe didn't have his own girlfriend and this got us thinking about something samson had said to us in his driveway. We appreciate your time very much. We'll say one way or the other you know you hear these things about okay. We had cost in this and then we thought okay. That's almost never true. She she thinks he did it. Good if you couldn't make out that last part samson told john and danny he would have arrested amy david's girlfriend at the time too but they couldn't prove she was involved. Sam said talk to david sister gina. He said the gina believes david. Did it now. This is the first person we'd heard of who allegedly thought. David did this. Besides of course the cops prosecutors anyone's family but someone close to david who thought he did this and it's his own sister. So why does samson thinks she believes us. And what does amy calf to do with it. Now if you remember you heard some of genus tape with the police where she said that they were starting and stopping the tape and taking things out of context while this whole conversation didn't start because the police were doing their due diligence and talking to the sister of the main suspect. No gina actually called the cops herself to talk about amy on april sixth nineteen ninety nine david and he's creamy studying now. Amy was never on our radar because she allegedly had an alibi home that evening with her grandmother. But here we have chris saying that guy's girlfriend higher joe and i've mentioned before that amien yvonne didn't get along remember. They almost got in a fight. When david took yvonne to the doctor and amy came yvonne flicked a cigarette at amy and doing down from there. Gino told us what she knew about. Amy when i say that she seems to have the dark side about her the things that she said in my kitchen that day just really sense some healed up and down my spine and made me feel very uncomfortable and the reason gina called police. After yvonne's murder was because she said about two weeks before he was killed. Amy had said something to her something shocking. She wanted to how much it costs on somebody off. I ended conversation telling her that no. I didn't convince never interested in having that to anyone. I knew she that like she knew where she asked me. She was not asking. It sounded as she already had nielsen coming up next time on murder in alliance that house then it was a it sounded to me. Like a woman's voice. I really don't want to say that. Because i'm tired of the injected in the middle of it. Yeah i have been for the last years williams here so you remember seeing him now but my boyfriend at the time we saw in there that night in joe's giving her permission so to speak to talk with us. You think joe's not worried about what she's going to tell us. I truly leading new. I know david wanted him to. And i was under the impression that dave was been paid too. Y'all if you like this show. Please consider joining the unjust unsolved patriot on it shows how much you care and helps us. Continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and lis lis rate. 'em review the more reviews the more attention and the more likely we're gonna get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder alliance is produced and reported by me. Maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murder in alliance on twitter and instagram at murder underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com.

chris joe Chris david rose david thorne chris campbell yvonne link freeling yvonne lane dwayne poelman John harden danny wexler jason baldwin carnation mall Joe oliver nagai freddy chris
Denise Huskins Story + Interview

Women and Crime

1:28:06 hr | 3 months ago

Denise Huskins Story + Interview

"Looking for a new podcast to binge let us tell you about murder in alliance on april fools day. Nineteen ninety nine twenty six year old. Von lane was found nearly decapitated in ohio home. While her kids slept nearly everyone who knew evonne had a motive to kill her but her ex boyfriend and father of one of her children. David thorne was the one sentenced to life without parole for the murder but evidence points to his innocence. Now twenty two years later. Investigative journalist maggie free laying is reinvestigating the case alongside jason baldwin. Himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the west memphis. Three and his organisation proclaim justice. Maggie and the team of investigators are on the ground in the lions ohio. The town would murder happened where they are uncovering new suspects new evidence police corruption and a potential cover up and they are reporting their investigation in real time. The first three episodes of murdering alliance are available to binge right now by murdering alliance. Wherever you get your podcasts. And on a personal note. We have worked with maggie before and we are big fans. Anything maggie does. I'm interested in listening to. She is so passionate and so wonderful at what she does. Her storytelling is impeccable. Her respect the dignity with which he investigates the causes that she takes up. I'm a huge fan of maggie feelings. I highly suggest. You download the podcast. This podcast making pain content. That is graphic and disturbing nature listener. Discretion is advised. It was a night that was supposed to mark the beginning of a fresh start for this couple however it soon became the beginning of an experience so terrible even the police would find it hard to believe. This is the denise hoskins story meghan amy. How is your birthday trip. I had to birthday traps. I was really lucky this year. Actually james took me to the beach for three days which was fabulous and we got to take our dog and my friend. Michelle took me to a lake for a couple of days and that was fun to sounds perfect. What is your friend amy do. You're my friend. Amy came over today With a big bag of all my favorite gifts including diet coke presario my favorite popcorn and all my favorite kito snacks. And we're celebrating tonight. So i'm excited. Thank you amy for help with today's episode i'd like to thank abigail peres. Lovely thank you. I will yes meghan. You definitely know that. The niece hoskins story I sure do you remember what episode we mentioned it in when we talked about sherry pechiney yup which blows my mind still no update there. But we're going to talk about case today. That i think is one of the most blowing cases. I know we say that often meghan but all we don't say it all the time but also i think the sherry pechiney case. Got you even more interested in covering this case absolutely. That's i to tell you the truth. I hadn't heard about this case until that case. So i knew of it but not not as well so and today's a little special because after the episode we will be speaking to denise herself and her husband aaron quinn who are the co authors of a book called victim f from crime victims two suspects to survivors and they wrote this along with nicole. Weisensee egan i know and this book i mean i'm just gonna say it right now. Victim f blew my mind and i read it in twenty four hours. I couldn't put it down. I can't wait to talk to them because it's stranger than fiction. The story it is but they're also really poignant writers in their points view. Are i mean just it will grab you. I suggest everyone get this book immediately. And i think once people hear the interview. We probably don't need to tell them they're going to run and get it anyway. Thank you right yeah. So let's get into the story meghan. We might not go into as much detail in some areas because we will be talking to denise and erin afterwards yeah. I think it'll be nice to hear from some of them On some of the issues that are involved in this case yes so let's start with a little background on. Who is the niece. While denise in the summer of two thousand and fourteen she moved to vallejo california you know where vallejo is right sort of okay. So it's north of oakland in the san francisco bay area a beautiful beautiful area. I did know that. Sorry so she moved there to complete a physical therapy residency now. She was working at kaiser hospital which is known to have one of the best specialized programs for patients with neurological disorders. So that's what denise was doing and it was there that she met aaron quinn who is also a physical therapist in the same department. The niece says she was initially drawn to his intelligence. They're both clearly very intelligent. To be part of this program now erin had been living in vallejo since two thousand and ten and he had recently broken up with his fiance in fact his fiancee had just recently moved out that same summer that he met the nieces fiance had moved out. Denise and erin would run into each other at work social situations and they always found themselves in deep conversations eventually end up dating but things were not really that smooth because aaron was processing what had happened with his ex fiancee and that would cost strain in his relationship with denise so they were take breaks quite often but regardless they decided they want to try and make things work even though denise was suspecting that might still have feelings for his ex fiancee. I remember that. Aaron said that this was a little bit complicated but i also remember that aaron and denise both said they were very drawn to each other like they had a very strong connection. I just think that erin. You know he was just processing. This long-term relationship in a way that you know probably most healthy people do when they get out of these relationships and unfortunately though seven months into the relationship with denise she found out that he had been speaking to his ex behind her back and lying to her about it so they really struggled with this for weeks they were going back and forth not sure what they should do but on march twenty second. Two thousand and fifteen. Denise decided that she would go over to errands house so they could finally talk things over really. It was aaron trying to convince the said he only wanted to be with her and then he's felt really strongly for aaron and she wanted to work things out as well so that evening of march second. Two thousand and fifteen. Denise brought a pizza over to aaron's home and they spent most of the night speaking about how to build trust in their relationship and aaron would just spend so much time apologizing profusely and explaining that he was now on therapy. And you really wanted to work things out and denise says she forgave him and said you know they'll move forward but she might want to take things slow. She says the to cry. They held each other. They talked about their future. It was around midnight when they both finally went to sleep and they're both very happy that they're moving forward. Things are going good but around. Three a m denise was awoken to the words that she would never forget. wake up. This is a robbery as you can. Imagine denise just assumes this is a bad dream as anyone would however it didn't take long to realize that there was actually a stranger standing above her shining a bright light into her face she also noticed red dots projected and moving on the walls. Kind of like those laser pointers that you say. The voice told the to to lie face down and told them several times that they are not there to hurt them. Denise followed the instructions while aaron states still. It was not until the person called aaron's name and repeated the instructions that he moved. Basically i think erin was in shock. He was kind of frozen and then they said his name and he realized they know his name. It's all terrifying but also the realization. Oh they know who. I actually am so. This is like plan. Yeah exactly. they were terrified of confused. The couple were zip tied at their risks and their ankles. Actually denise was told to tie aaron and then the intruders tied her. Oddly one of the men kept praising denise telling her good job she was doing throughout this now. This was a group of intruders. Not sure exactly. How many just that. We know that they were outnumbered so there were three possibly more and all of these people that they believe were men. Were all wearing wetsuits. That is extremely bizarre. But i guess it was to. You know remove any possibility of leaving any type of bodily evidence behind fingerprints hair anything. Yeah that's what i was thinking to. The two were then blindfolded using blacked out. Goggles and headphones were placed on their ears. Now denise says the person doing this was very gentle with her which seems almost extra disturbing or eerie in some way. It's nice that they were being gentle with our. But you know like i said they kept praising her for doing a good job and making sure that you know. Her hair didn't get stuck in the goggles. And just really being considerate. It just seems paradoxical because somebody's breaking into your home and they care enough about whether your hair's getting pulled or maybe they want us to appear that they care enough to sued you to facilitate cooperation. You know that kind of thing. Now the tour inside a closet and they're listening to a prerecorded message that the assailants had created. F i it was just calming music and then a voice said stay calm. We aren't here to hurt you. This is purely financial and it will be over soon. This is not your fault okay now. The creepiest part of all the recording goes on to say a medical professional will be in shortly. Check your vitals. You'll be given a sedative and if you don't take it orally it will be injected a medical professional. Oh my goodness. That's that's an odd detail to put in. some of. this is a very just odd. Yeah now and sure enough. Somebody came in and took their blood pressure and ask them about medical history and allergies. I don't even remember that part. Wow as if they were like at a doctor's office now another recording comes on the headphones telling denise and erin that they will need to provide their passwords personal information and they are further inform that if they live than the other one would be shocked and or cut shocked then they moved to needs to a different room in the house and once again she is asked if she has comfortable and when she says she is cold. The sailing gets her blanket. Meanwhile the recording on errands headphones are reciting personal information such as where he grew up. And i believe this was a way to show that. They knew where his family lived away to intimidate him. He was also visited by one of the intruders who he had to give all his information to. They also asked about who denise was and whether or not she resembled his ex fiancee right because the ex fiance was probably the original target. Yeah yeah so or at least they. We think that that's possible. The intruders told denise that she was not the intended target and that they in factor there for aaron's ex-fiancee whose name to this day has never been published so it seems that there was a point where the intruders are like trying to figure out what to do. Because this wasn't the plan. Apparently denise was not the target so they don't know if they should continue what they were doing or if they should call the whole thing off after conversing amongst themselves the intruders. They told a niece that she is going to be kidnapped for forty eight hours and that she would not be released until aaron completes some tasks jas. I don't know at this point. But i'd be how what i would be thinking. You know what. I find odd about the ex-fiancee possibly being the target here is that i know. Even i know aaron. She and aaron had spoken via text. And i knew they worked together but she wasn't coming around the house and they had broken up seven months before. So that's a very long time in between because they were as will come to find out it does seem like they were surveilling. The house exactly so wouldn't they. Have it inherently denise and the ex-fiancee looked similar on some accounts. Some accounts say no not at all. They both had blonde hair but very different build. So it's hard to really know. Okay after telling denise that they would be taking her. They allowed her together her belongings and to use the bathroom privately so again they're being somewhat gentle with her considering the situation but after they do this they place her in the trunk of errands car but they did line it with a comforter so again it's more gentle than you would expect people to be in this situation either for you know because they want to ensure cooperation And make sure that there's no resistance or because they view themselves as really you know maybe they're doing this one act that they view themselves as good people still so they're they're trying to preserve that feelings of i'm not a bad person neutralization theory theory which may or may not come up later but yeah we'll have to see. The intruders also told erin that they would be taking the niece and that she was not the intended target but as a way to make money at this point he would have to pay to get her back. He got very specific instructions from the recording. He was told. Do not go to the police. There is a camera setup in the home to make sure do not change the temperature in the house. Stay inside again cameras everywhere. They will find you if you leave They also told him he could go to the bathroom. And if you alert anyone then we will kill denise. They also instructed erin to call out of work for the next day for both him and denise and to keep his phone nearby as they would be communicating with him. Before leaving the home. They moved him to the living room couch and they told him to stay there until morning. They also left him scissors to free himself. And the two phones on the counter. So we're going to do this little different. We're gonna talk about what happened from errands point of view and then we'll go into denise point and because at this point they're separated so they're they're very different experiences Aaron says he ended up falling asleep because of the sedatives and he woke up around five. Am in a drug induced haze and this is when he noticed red tape on the floor around him and cameras pointing at him he did is he was told which is basically cut himself loose and then called in sick for both him and denise he says he fell in and out of sleep for the next several hours. The kidnappers texted an emailed him as they promise. The first communication he received told him that denise was fine and also gave him instructions on how to obtain money basically they said take eighty five hundred from two different accounts so that it doesn't raise suspicion at the bank. Aaron then called the bank in the credit card company to inquire about getting a cash advance. He wrote the kidnappers letting them know that he could not actually obtain the money that day. They actually wanted it by that evening or the next morning but the bank and credit card company told me it couldn't happen that quickly so ahrends panicking at this point. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't want to call nine one one because he's afraid they're going to hurt denise so he decided to call his brother ethan because ethan at an fbi agent and he thinks though it to do well ethan tells him to call nine one so that's what he does. He calls nine one reluctantly hard decision to make very hard and we are going to ask. Aaron about how hard this decision in fact was for him. The police arrive to a really puzzling seen again. This red tape is on the floor. There's cameras there's a clearly drugged aaron who also admits the police. yes. I am on drugs. There were beer and like some alcohol glasses in the sink. They asked aaron so many questions. They were not treating this house like a crime scene. They did not have gloves. They searched the house. They took aaron to the station. They wanted to get a statement. They also wanted to get a blood sample so it seems like initially the police are thinking. Something seems strange here and i don't blame them. It seems like a puzzling scene to walk into now. If the station aaron was put into a small windowless room really what we know. Is that typical interrogation room. Which megan is no way to treat a victim or witness. Well that's because they didn't think he was a victim or witness absolutely right. You know what else they made him do. It made him wear the jail close. And that's also Just a demoralizing experience and framing him for anyone to see that video later. It looks like he's a suspect and they took pictures of him. You know to me. It seemed like he was under arrest. It doesn't to me. It doesn't seem like he was free to leave. It did not seem that way so over the course of ours they asked aaron to recount the events. You saw your typical good cop bad cop they were saying things like the truth will set you free. We're not buying your story. It didn't happen like that. You didn't plan this. Something happened and you know and the typical you know. We found blood in the house. I know you killed her all of these interrogation tactics that we see and and you can see part of the interrogation on twenty twenty. Did you see that twenty twenty. I did yeah we with me. Yeah that's right okay. With and james remember. James was not there. You're right it seems jan and he's hysterical. This poor guy like it's hard to watch terrible to watch brutal. So they gave him. They also give a lie detector tests and he is so sleep deprived at this point. It's been more than twelve hours since he called nine one one and of course. They quickly tell him. He failed whether or not he failed. You know who knows. Well you don't because the police can lie to you even though you can't lie to the police the police can lie to you. There was another round of brutal interrogation and now this is done by some fbi. Investigators who come in at this point. Aaron realizes what is probably time to get a lawyer and his brother helped him retain a local attorney. Can you imagine the frustration. Remember the intruders told that they were going to hurt the knees. If he didn't comply and here they are hours later and the police are not even trying to find denise the only thing they are doing is they're searching errands home with canines. Yeah because they think that. Aaron kill denise and had happened in the home so they are treating it like a crime scene but they're treating it like a crime scene in which aaron killed denise knows coming in with the story and tunnel vision at finest because they are wasting really valuable time as we know if somebody is taken the most crucial time as you know the first twenty four. I twenty four hours. Yeah absolutely i mean even even usually smaller time frame than that but twenty four hours is really critical so so much time is being wasted and remember. They told aaron they were communicate with him via cell phone. Well guess what. The police took his phone and they put it on airplane mode. 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Dot tv code women to get your first thirty days for free finally. it's now the evening march twenty fourth and the police are starting to take things a little more serious because there was a proof of life recording that the kidnappers had sent to a local media outlet so now the police are thinking okay. Maybe something is going on here and they actually have the hostage negotiation team on site and this was when erin gets his phone back realizes it was on airplane mode turns on his phone to see that he had missed several messages from the kidnappers. Self restraint so frustrating. So now what's going on with denise member nieces in the trunk of aaron's car and is in and out of consciousness because remember she was also given sedatives. Guess at some point. The car stopped in her kidnapper. Cut off her zip ties to make her more comfortable and moved her to different car trunk. So remember they were in ari- car and now they're moving her to a different car now in the fall when the car finally stops. She's not sure how long she was in the trunk for but it was definitely hours. She was taken out of the trunk and laid on the ground while her kidnapper goes inside to clean up a house so basically he says you stay here. I need to up a little and remember in the book. Denise says like i you know. I'm thinking he's cleaning up after his last victim like this must be. I couldn't imagine that feeling. The man came out and told her she could use the bathroom and he helps her walk. She was allowed to shower and she was told you know. Just keep your goggles on. Then she was taken to a bedroom and she was told that this is where she would be staying. Denise was told that she was going to be set free once. Aaron complied with their demands. The man also explained to her that he was part of an organization that was hired to fulfil personal debts and each member of the group had a different job in this was his job within the group. It seems odd that he's giving this much information and it seems like a cover story. Well he tells her even more because he goes on to tell her that he has been trained and he had been preparing thoroughly for the kidnapping and that him and the others are all military trains and again he tells her she was not the intended target and he goes on to tell her that this group had been watching her aaron for the last six months now at the end of the first day of captivity. Denise was feeling grateful for the fact that no one had heard her in fact remember. They were treating her kind of kindly. There were letting our privacy to take a shower and that's not what you would expect. Unfortunately things changed for her when the man entered the room telling her that he would have to have sex with her so that they would have something on her to keep her quiet so they told her they would be videotaping the assault and that she would need to look as if the act was consensual. This is. I don't know what i mean to say here. But this is obviously where she must have. That panic must've really start to set in for her and before the assault he actually hanging out with her. He wanted to get to know where he was asking her questions telling her how he suffers from. Ptsd after being in the military. I'm pretty sure he offered her wine like he was really trying to make it. Like as if this was consensual. While i was just gonna say. He's trying to normalize the assault by making. This is a tactic that some assailants will use. He's trying make it. As though i'm not assaulting you we've established a relationship is just something we have to together it's disgusting. Can you imagine how denise must be. I imagine. Well i mean. We'll we're gonna talk today about how she felt so we will find out exactly how she felt is true. After the attack denise was told to shower and she was told that she was allowed to remove the goggles while she was alone in the bathroom she was also provided toiletries and a clean towel. So she explains it almost as if like being in a hotel. There were like little travel. Toiletries and a towel waiting for her. This is all very strange. She was then given food and some more set. It is now the next day is when she was asked to record a proof of life. This is the recording that was sent to the san francisco chronicle along with an email stating that she would be returned safely which gave her loved ones hope and everyone really felt like not only that gave the police if finally made the police change and maybe aaron is telling some of the truth. Denise was then sexually assaulted again after being told that the last recording didn't look believable enough again. They told her needed to look like it was consensual and that the two were having an affair. She was told that she needed to kiss her assailant and participate in the act. At one point her captor let her read a new story about her kidnapping and comforts her when she breaks down crying that evening after dinner and some wine she got another sedative and went to sleep so again. He is acting as if How did you explain it before. He's he's normalized by. He's acting as if they're in a relationship and he's normalizing minding his culpability flame. He's really a good guy because you know he's giving her this comfort and he's establishing a rapport and this is the same person to this. Is the person. She refers to his voice in her book a lot. So this is you know even though there were multiple assailants at one point. She's with this one who she refers to the voice constantly. That's a good point. Yes that's exactly what she does. And i think it's because i don't know if they ever explain why. She says that she never got to see him. That's exactly why shouldn't see him. She'll choice yes So remember she was given another sedative and went to sleep some hours later. She was awoken by the voice by her captor telling her quote. It's time at this point. He put her in the passenger seat of the car and they took a long drive to southern california where he says he would be dropping her in huntington beach now. That's where her parents live and where she grew up. She is told that she cannot say anything about his military experience or the sexual assault so he says basically you know i understand. You're going to go to the police. That's fine just. Don't say these two things and he knows her address. He knows where her parents live to listen to this. I think before leaving. He tells her that her strength is admirable and he regrets not meeting her under different circumstances and that she was an incredible person yet another thing that must have made her feel sick sick. Yeah so she follow the instructions given which were to get out of the car count till ten before taking off the tape that was over her is she does just that and she looks around and she is filled with relief when she sees that she is only a block away from where her mother lips cause remember. Her eyes were taped the whole time. Even though he said. I'm going to be bringing you wanting to be. She had no reason to believe this was. Actually i thought he was bringing somewhere to kill me. And that's exactly what. She thought right to her dismay however her mother was not home. She then went to her father's house which was nearby but he wasn't home either because they are both in vallejo helping with the search. Luckily she saw a neighbor who took her in and called nine. One at this point denise believes the worst days are behind her because she survived this attack she could not have imagined how much worse things would become for both herself and erin. The police arrive and from the moment they arrive. They seem suspicious of denise. They thought the much calmer than she should have been and she looked better than they would have expected. She also had her personal belongings with her as well. So the police are saying okay. This doesn't look like someone who has been kidnapped. And you know dropped off or you know even when it did look like remember. Just going back to sherry pechiney ruling work even when she did look like. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't so we can't judge by appearance in affect that's a good point. Because she was the opposite. I remember she was like b enough and you know she looked all you know bloody on the side of the road and they thought that was suspicious. She's she told the police that the shoe she was wearing were given to her by her captor and also that he had given her a water bottle however they did not take those into evidence. They took some photos of her. She just kept telling me that she wanted to call her family. That's all she wanted and they just kept holding her there because they were waiting for the lead detective to arrive. Luckily they did allow her aunt and cousin cousin who had recently passed the bar exam into see her and she was allowed to leave with them very quickly. The family retained an attorney and informed the niece early on that the police did not believe her story and that the lead detective thought that aaron and denise were in on this hoax together because their stories matched perfectly. Wow what a coincidence. When that's the exact events. I mean the stories match perfectly. Because they're telling the truth now this to me was one of the most shocking. Did you see this. Press conference vallejo. Police department had that evening could not believe it could not believe it. They actually said from this point. Forward mr quinn and miss hoskins will no longer be referred to as victims or witnesses quote. They plundered valuable resources. And oh the community an apology. This was quote a wild goose chase. This was only hours after they had done. No investigation whatsoever not this is. It's not incompetent. Actually it's malicious i. This is this is way worse. So with the statement as you can imagine their credibility and reputations war-shattered they lived the next few weeks inferior number one knowing that their attackers are still at large. Because the police didn't believe them and we're not investigating but also receiving awful emails and facebook posts calling them awful names especially denise people were calling her pathetic calling her a liar and a lot more awful things that i don't even want to repeat like aaron had just a few days prior denise was brought in for questioning. It was clear that not only were the police. Not believing her. They were victimizing her by the aggressive interrogation style. Questions that they were asking again it was the good cop bad cop and this is someone who's been traumatized by this event and now the police are acting like this. It was around this time. However that another email was sent to the san francisco chronicle from the kidnaper now the kidnapper is taking blame for the crime and it was expressing frustration. That police were still suspecting. Aaron and denise of orchestrating the whole thing. Now what do you think of this. Do you think the kidnappers pissed. Because he wants credit or do you think he feels bad for them. You know i thought about this. Ah a little bit. And i think it's it might be just a little bit of both. I think he felt again bad for what he did to denise and wanted to normalize it and wanted to you know he probably felt in some ways bad for her when he saw her being blamed in victimized. I think he wanted to try to help her. He still sees himself again. Neutralization still sees himself as a decent guy. Neutralizing his own Guilt and you think he was. Do you think he also wanted some offenders. Want the notoriety of it. Do you think he was like pissed that he was not getting credit for either way of possibility. I i'm not sure. But i think that's a possibility as well but there are finally a break in the case in june two thousand and fifteen about three months after that press conference there was the discovery made. That would help denise and erin. Find the much-needed justice that they had been waiting for during those three months. They kept a very low profile. They did say together. They were very much together and stronger than ever they tried to. Of course avoid the media. Aaron had to sell his house. They moved into an apartment together in a different town. They were not working Partially because of dealing with the effects of what they went through but also there were some issues with their employer. Taking them back. They were traveling all over. They had to stay with family and the head to keep a low profile because they were labeled as these hoaxers and when they were seen in public. I think even this was in the book. People would point and say nasty things so they really had to keep a low profile somehow without having a police deliver any of their belongings. And i think that's one of the reasons. They didn't return to work because remember. They worked for this really well known program that i didn't want to be involved in all of this which i can understand but it made things really hard for the couple. So what does this break in the case in alameda county which is just forty miles away. There was a failed home invasion that led to the discovery of evidence that was linked niece's kidnapping in this situation a masked intruder broke into a home where a couple and their daughter were asleep. Now the husband got into a scuffle with the intruder and the intruder ended up fleeing however he left something at the scene magazine. He left his cell phone. That's right he did so. What did the cell phone. The cell phone led police to his door in south lake. Tahoe so the police were led to the home of forty four year. Old matthew muller who was a former marine and harvard educated immigration lawyer not the profile that you probably would have suspected by the way i remember he left. He didn't leave the cell phone accidentally. He just didn't anticipate that the male in the household was going to fight back and he did and in the scuffle. The phone dropped any flat. Gotcha okay yeah so. It's a very interesting turn of events here. The police go there. They search muller's home and they described this home as quote an absolute wreck and they found a lot of strange items. They found a box filled with license plates. They found a key maker which helps me keys for certain models of certain cars. They found a stun gun. They also found big tub of vassil. Lean and a penis pump. But no need to get into that In the trunk of molars car. They found a blow up doll. They found nerf guns painted black with laser pointers attached. They found duct tape zip ties. Swim goggles with blacked out. Lenses to sound familiar sounds familiar to me. Yep and one of them had a long blonde hair attached to it. Most importantly however was the discovery of a laptop computer which would later be traced to aaron and also on it would be an explicit video of muller and hoskins while he has denison. Aaron were informed of the arrests and while they felt some sense of relief. The information was not made public so their names. Were still not clear because you know when they're still investigating they don't Let the public know. Exactly what's going on. There's reasons for that. But i don't blame them for wanting to shout from the roof tars. Yep furthermore they also knew that there were more assailants who were fray remember. They said they were a group of intruders. So for them yes. It's great that they may have gotten the mastermind or the actual kidnapper denise but what about the other people who were out there and they were so frustrated because the police ignored all the information they gave. that could have led them to molar. sooner now. luckily this home invasion didn't end in anyone getting to hurt. But that's still traumatizing for a family that they did not have to go through that because if they would have listened to the nissan aaron than muller would have never been on the street to do that and if you read their book. You're going to see some very simple steps. They actually could have taken if they had just opened. There is a little bit. Yep they had the opportunity to read the affidavit which they did probable cause for the arrest of molar and they were shocked at the discrepancies and the outright lies in other words. It seemed that the vallejo police department were clearly trying to cover themselves and they were trying to distance themselves from any wrongdoing during the investigation. And this pissed them off because they were there and they said no. That's not true because we were suspects and they didn't do that and they didn't do what they were supposed to do. horse at. Cya time comes less so when matthew muller was arrested this was now july two thousand and fifteen and the initial charges were kidnapping rape burglary and false imprisonment now. These were the state charges and he pled not guilty to all of them He used to be an attorney. Remember mentioned he was an attorney. He was actually disbarred. Although he was disbarred he was still able to represent himself. Because we know that you don't need to be a lawyer to represent yourself in the court of law from early on. They had this narrative that he had mental illness and it seemed like he was setting things up for an insanity defense. He pleaded no contest the other charges for that home invasion and he got ten years and so by no contest. It just means that he is not admitting guilt but he won't contest the charges. He's admitting they have enough on him. But he will not actually accept guilt also known as an alford plea alford pleas the same offer. Please when people Take they say they acknowledge that. There's enough evidence against them so yeah but they don't admit guilt some now. Neither one of those involves admitting actual guilt and you see a lot of innocent. People do offer pleas when they just know that the cards are stacked too much against them absolutely in september. Two thousand and sixteen muller accepted a plea for the federal kidnapping charges so he pled guilty to one count of federal kidnapping and was sentenced to forty years in prison. He told the court that he was the only one who had abducted denise and that there were never any other people involved now. This is strange because denise erin both sent multiple times that there was a group of at least three other assailants with her in the house. So i don't know if he's just trying to cover for you know other people or you know what was going on. The the police still said that it was even after that. They said denise iron wrong it was just matthew muller but the way denise and erin describe it in. The book is at least that they saw multiple legs and heard multiple voices and them. I believe no reason not to absolutely have you recall. That was the federal charges the federal kidnapping where he was sentenced to forty years in prison. However there were still though state charges so for the state charges. He was found mentally incompetent to stand trial after being diagnosed as manic depressive and having bipolar disorder. So he's currently serving time in a gel based competency treatment program which basically just means when he's restored to competency than the trial can commence. Let's talk about what's going on with denise and erin so we know that muller is doing his time but unfortunately it's not that easy for denise an errand to just move on from this in march two thousand sixteen about a year after the kidnapping. They filed a defamation lawsuit against the belay ho police department who remember publicly called their case. A wild goose chase. This press statement lead media outlets to attack the to especially denise comparing her to the main character of gone girl. You saw gone girl right. Of course i did. And i remember the gone girl. That kept. that'll nancy grace. Do you remember the nancy grace. Her whole thing like the real life gone girl. I sure do again remember. They were a couple of attacked on social media. Thinks we're not good for them. Their lawsuits claim that because vallejo police department alleged that the cap was orchestrated their reputations were destroyed and they had been forced to move out of town where they both were the two one. Their suit was settled though the couple would have actually preferred a trial because the trial would have been able to actually out all the actors here but the city of vallejo agreed to pay the couple. Two point five million for the damages that the department had caused them for the poor handling of their case. So it's annoying. They got the money. But it's not all about the money and denise and erin. I think really wanted to expose it. Because there wasn't poor handling it was militias. It was victim blaming. It was all day. Greetings ever see the movie a civil action with john travolta based on a true story on the pse and g. scandal where they dumped all the the the oil or all the chemicals in the water and all the kids and families got sick. Well you know the family's always wanted an apology. And the lead attorney said money is their way of apologizing. That's the only apology. You're going to get and it's like no. I understand what they wanted. Was a real apology public apology. Yeah and real acknowledgement of wrong doing and the vallejo police department did issue an apology. Email to the couple but that was years later and it was sent to. Abc seven news. It was like it was just for show. I remember it was a crummy won two straight on the senate. Let's end on a happy note here. Meghan on september twenty nine th two thousand eighteen. Despite all the trauma they had faced. The couple was married by their lawyer. Doug rappaport who they are now. Very close family friends with after the two got married. They decided they wanted to start a new life. Working again as physical therapists they had a child They are now living happily with their fourteen month. Old daughter olivia who was actually born. Five years to the day that denise was released from captivity. That's right and you know. Megan that's going to bring us to now when on june eighth two thousand twenty one. They released that book that we talked about victim. F which is amazing details their entire harrowing ordeal. It's a must read yet. Their story is not only a commentary on the criminal justice system on victimization. But it's also a story on love and healing So it really has everything you know. One would really want to see in this. I just think it has all of the elements. And i love the way. It was written similar to the way i presented. Today's case where you have denise talking about what's going on with her and then aaron and then back to denise back to aaron and then the third author who's coming in from an outside perspective. It's really just so well done so without further ado. Why don't we get into the interview or so fortunate to have these guests today. Let's turn it over to denise hoskins and aaron quinn. This episode is brought to you by hp plus in a world full of smart devices. Shouldn't your printer be smart to it. Is with hp plus these printers know when they're running low so you always get the inky you delivered right when you needed. Plus you save up to fifty percent on inc so you can print whatever you want as much as you want anytime you want. That is pretty smart. Get six three months of instant inc when you choose. Hp plus conditions apply visit hp dot com slash. Smart for details looking for a new podcast. Binge let us tell you about murder in alliance on april fools day. Nineteen ninety nine twenty six year old. Yvonne lane was found nearly decapitated in her ohio home while her kids slept. Nearly everyone who knew. Yvonne had a motive to kill her but her ex boyfriend and father of one of her children. David thorne was the one sentenced to life without parole for the murder but evidence points to his innocence. Now twenty two years later investigative journalists maggie free laying is reinvestigating the case alongside jason baldwin himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the west memphis. Three and his organisation proclaimed justice. Maggie and the team of investigators are on the ground in the lions ohio. The town where the murder happened. Were they are uncovering new suspects new evidence police corruption and a potential cover up and they are reporting their investigation in real time. The first three episodes of murdering alliance are available to binge right now by murdering alliance. Wherever you get your podcasts. And on a personal note. We have worked with maggie before and we are big fans. Anything maggie does. I'm interested in listening to. She is so passionate and so wonderful at what she does. Her storytelling is impeccable. Her respect the dignity with which he investigates the causes that she takes up. I am a huge fan of maggie. Feelings i highly suggest. You download the podcast. Thank you so much for agreeing to do the interview with us. Just so you guys know. We read your book this weekend. And when i say devoured that would be putting it mildly. I've almost never read a book that quickly. I don't cry either to see guys know. I cried twice I think that your book is seriously one of the most moving books that i've ever read in general and as it pertains to the criminal justice system i think it has the potential to have a huge impact in so many different ways. Well thank you. That really means a lot. Were you guys writers before it was a bit of a jump. Going from physical therapy center. Mindset to a whole new crafts are co author. Did a great job in helping guide us through the writing process because it was new you experience so many kudos to you and i think that i don't know if you realize that outpouring of people are going to reach out to you. Thank you because you're probably had helped so many people and plus. I always think the best way to reform because actually criminologist and we think the best way to reform the system is to point out all the bad actors in it and call them out. You know we know the story very well. One of the things denise that you said in the book when you realize someone was in the house and someone was coming for you guys you talk about fight or flight and that's something. We hear all the time in our field but i wonder is freeze is also a reaction. People are saying now that people didn't know back in the day so is do you think this is also a reaction that people can have ended either of you experience that feeling at all. Oh yeah the mean. Initially when i my eyes open and i realized that i wasn't dreaming Men in the house Surrounding us with what appeared to be guns. My initial reaction was to freeze and just kind of take it I was in shock but then at the same time you know as humans we have the ability to than processor information so we can either initially within romy. I'm processing through all the different possibilities of what my options were Can i can. I scream Can i flee and the way everything was set up by realized. I can't in my best choice is to listen and pay attention and try to gather as much information as possible to help see what can potentially save lives. The out that makes perfect sense. Aaron i would just ask you the same question When the voice focus up i was frozen. It wasn't till he said aaron. You're lying face up face down. I feel myself almost like my by came back online email. Canton could actually see and hear what was going on. But my body was unable to actually move in that. Snap abbott and just like denise the way they woke us up Amer surrounded with the weapons. We quickly not saying to each other. We quickly decide that the best course actions to try to minimize any physical damage. Happen to us it as you were talking about. This is no ordinary home invasion. There were obviously a good amount of preparation with the guns. The lasers goggles the audio recordings. I mean i've almost never heard anything like this in in our fields and while it was occurring. I know at some point there was a tape that was played and you realize that they knew your name. What were your thoughts initially about these people and and their approach to you. Well i mean. He woke us up saying wake up. This is a robbery on. We could tell that there is multiple people in the room and this is obviously well planned out And it was actually pretty quickly. Like erin was saying when he froze. They told us to turn over and aaron didn't end. They said errands name. And so that was the first indication for me. My god like they've they know the homeowners name and as each moments playing out. You're wondering what this is because it does did seem like it's out of a movie but you know we're simple people physical therapists working in a rehab facility out. Why would anyone target us for something like this. We don't have a lot of money you know so. We're just hoping that what they were saying was true that it was just a robbery downstairs when we were in the closet Even when they said that they were gonna give a sedative. We thought okay. We'll maybe they're just going to knock us out a clear out errands belongings. That's it but then you know we realized Eventually they told me that they would take me and for me. I'm wondering does. Does aaron have a lot of money. I don't think so you know. And and two they had said it was meant for his ex fiancee as well. So that was another thing. That was just like y. I mean all of this was really extreme and hard to process warren. The clause in gave us a sedatives and we could hear people rummaging like a. Here's someone going through my cabinet drawers in an a drill in other side of my living area. And i think i mean are still hoping that was gonna be robbery A separate s took denise. Clausen has different rooms. They seem to a commune of maybe wasn't by. Your best thing to do is keep your hope. yeah man fortunately Even after they intended for my ex They continued through on the kidnapping. Talk a lot about your decision to call nine one one and you you stated it in the book but why did you ultimately decide to do that because i know that must have been such a hard decision for you. That's what the kidnappers had settled my house as my home prison as i said they had put a myriad app on my phone to see if i could my calls and text messages Cepa camera to to watch me in real time ever when it kidnappers made the mistake of telling me that the camera would make this noise once it was fully loaded and that was before they had taken denise by the morning time cameras still making. That noise is able to determine. That may cameron wasn't fully operating ultimate decision. Came down to the kidnapper said their own. I would drop me off. Tuesday nine returned in east wednesday morning. Wants thing about that. It's like they're gonna come with the money. They can take me kill spelled and to really trust people who do this type of planning. Maybe just some sadistic game and a power trip on raw cacao authorities. Which i end up. I call my brother because he's fbi agent. And i figure if the kidnappers could see my phone calls. I can live out talked to my brother. He ultimately told me. Call nine one one. Which was a hard decision my life and because i thought I would be safe. Because i'd be with law enforcement and i could be killington east with that call And unfortunately the police everything nurse. You both had incredible wherewithal like when you explain your thought processes and how you are able to like keep calm. It's it's really incredible. Because i know that everyone in both of us separately had different processes for. This is what i need to do. It's really it's it's quite incredible. Aaron do you ever think about What what do you ever think about. What if you didn't make that nine one one call I think about often. What would how would be different. I mean it's always uncertainty. It's you know were most people don't like you're making impossible decision for impossible decisions avenue that we went as i probably only weigh It would ever work out. But maybe if i call. If i don't call nine one one. Maybe they would would've taken the money. I know our reputation limpid been destroyed by the police But i don't know as you know it's answering unknown Sometimes i tried to avoid thinking about that because I can drive you crazy. All the what ifs. And why's and at some point. You have to kind of accept what happened and make the best of what happened. The moment i guess why the book described. I am steig guy. But i imagine that's kind of feelings like certain points jump out the plane. You can't look back sinise. You had a lot that you were going through but did you think. Were you worried at all about what was happening or may have happened to erin. Oh yeah. I mean that's all i could think of based on everything that happens. I what was told to me In captivity that mike captor was in charge of me in that aspect of this quote unquote mission And so i thought for sure someone. I was with aaron or watching him closely and of course. I wasn't given a lot of information on how you know what was going on errands end. But i knew that we both were in danger. And so it definitely was a factor. And what i did or didn't do you know i was always thinking. What if i do something that could lead to him. Getting her killed just trying to save myself. I mean i really live with that and not you know. Obviously it's by design to get people to comply. It's one thing when you're in that situation by yourself and you're making decisions based on your own life but then when you're doing that for a loved one you know and they were errands. Parents lives and told erin that a eventually newer where my family lived. We're using that against me. And yeah they have incredible amount of power over you because of that of a one on one of the sources of frustration for me was that initial reports were questioned. Why waited so long to call the police. Which i mean i was tied up. I was drugged and it's not an easy decision. People think as their kidnappers put constraints and pressure on you to not go to authorities found it a little Bewildering that people thought that because there was a delay. Somehow i was involved one. That's how you extort money is you put threats on the loved one and two disappointed threats to my family as well and that ends up being such a immense amount pressure. I don't know how would live with myself if they attacks someone i cared about. It's shocking to me still but it must be shocking to both of you. The way people who have never experienced anything like you do see fit to make judgements that they've never had to make themselves. I think mike tyson quote right like everyone has a plan until you get pumped until you get punched in the face. I mean that's really like you just really can't imagine and like you're saying kind of have no room to judge not far while he wrote the book and made sure it was from our point of view is that we're hoping that there are story on peel. Maybe gain low empathy or a reducer rush to judgment because you truly don't knowing when story He really don't know all the facts and especially now on the day of social media in the quick access to opinions one. The smartest things to do. I don't just say. I don't know i mean. Obviously we know the assailant knew a lot about you on but also about your ex aaron. I didn't read it. And i didn't gather it but were there ever any links established between Your ex and the assailant. We haven't found out why They had targeted my my fiance. And fortunately you know. Same thus Words investigators who said we did hoax and we pleaded to get new fresh eyes on and kept them on on this case so it's difficult to trust her sussman of of the evidence but more importantly like many victims. We won't get the answers and for us. It's about moving forward. And there's things that help us move. Forward is our love for each other and our love our daughter and our families and the game back to who we were at fiscal therapists and those core pillars at that matter most in life going on fourteen. We know there's other people out there that could toss harm but we continue to try to just have the police basic work in to help protect the public but as far as moon for it as individuals. We we do family and friends and those things are the most important he. I understand that you have to resign yourself in certain circumstances to just know that you're not going to know everything. How did he sorry. How did they know your parent's address. Is that something you gave them. Es and i well win. My captor was telling me about the drop off. And the the second day. I was being held Eventually told me that. Aaron was went to the police and the media has covered et And he was saying that he couldn't release in the bay area because it was too hot term he used And so we asked me where my family was that he where he could release me that i could get to family closely and i had my driver's license with my my mom's address in my bag and i didn't feel like i could lie to him and at that point too. I was just really hopeful that he would release close to family and so we told them of a cross street that that i could. He could release me to where. I could walk and get tighter my mom or my dad's right. Let's turn a little bit to the police conduct or misconduct. I would call it misconduct. And i think it's a lot more than that. Jesse no denise. I want to ask you as a survivor of This type of assault that you underwent. How did you feel when you told the police your story and they didn't believe you. Yeah i mean. I oh you know every second of that two days in captivity all i was thinking about is how can i live to see another moment. Will i be able to survive the ascendant. Also making peace with the fact that it's probably going to be the end of my life so the idea that i would actually live to see another day and then have to to present information so the police could believe me. I mean that didn't even cross my mind and so for wanna just in complete shock that i'm actually living and free to. I'm not even really sure. If i m free because before i was released i was told you talk to the police. You can't say two things. Anything about being in the military or anything about the sexual assaults. And so i was also just terrified that whatever said was going to be somehow released publicly they find out in attack my family And then you know the first interaction. I had with vallejo. Police bay said you know Basically we don't believe you offer you immunity. And i mean i just i don't have words and so the next step was we needed a higher criminal defense attorney to to protect me from going back into a different form of captivity in a jail cell. Why do you think the police assumed immediately that this was a hoax and the bet you guys were victims. Was this ineptitude. Was this laziness. Was it militias. Why i feel like. It's a combination of everything i i mean it's hard to even know. I think one thing as you public said like. Oh they didn't believe needs but as you read the book is that they never believed me and so they went hours of. I kill denise tells you did it view it's an accident and if or if it wasn't accent rampages cooperate monster if you keep denying it and that is actually a common interrogation strategy. What's extraordinary amount of time that they interrogated me and the fact that they use my brother. Who's an fbi agent to try. Get confessional made those but the actual method is commonly taught in. That's unfortunately for police. Confessions equal truth and don't necessarily register that when you psychologically tortured people they're gone May say something just to make it. Stop from there. The best case scenario for them is that they could. They had to say it was a hoax. Because we're game pressure from the public in a need to answer to them for some reason they felt a new answer. I don't know exactly why they did that quickly. But i think it's more to take the pressure off them. I mean that's what police cheeks instead position was meaning to give the public an answer and that said Were still investigating or the coaches actually done investigation. But yeah i mean. That's the thing the before i was even released. They believed that it was gone girl hoax and that was clear by the types of questions that stay. Were asking my mom and even when she shared that. I was molested as a child. That was somehow an excuse for making something like this up because in the detectives experience. Apparently that's what women do they'll make up something like this To relive the thrill of the prior assault was one of my questions. Then denise my follow up question would have been. Do you think that your treatment by the police was basically shaped by your gender. Well there's a number of things that i would say. Yes for one that statement and then we found out later to the chief of police before can park their spokesperson. Went out to say that was a hoax on national news. He told him to go out. And burn that bitch referring to me. So i mean there was a lot of anger a lot of even when my defense attorney called and i spoke to the police and say we need to get her to the hospital for a sexual assault exam. We needed to do as soon as possible. And it was in the middle of the night and they said no she can come here and talk to us. I will determine if we're going to set this up But in the meantime however not shower same clothes. She can't wash your hands. Brush your teeth and You know we'll talk to her and then we'll see we'll set up the exam. I mean it was just one thing after the other that it's it's clearly their viewpoint. When i read that. I felt sick to my stomach. Saying like it's it. I cannot believe you don't wanna believe it And i know so much about some. Amy and i both do about so much. That goes wrong in this system. And yet i was still shocked. Yeah and that too on top. Because i didn't fight my assailants. 'cause i i mean obviously was dragged and how captive didn't know that so in with the assaults. I didn't put up a fight. So if my sexual assault exam leader. Fbi wrote that. There was no signs of quote. Non consensual sex again insinuating matt. I guess that it's not technically rate. And that was something not the public saw. And so even after Mike after raped us was caught. People still went out and said oh lake. Her one person wrote her genitals. Don't match your story or something. Yeah it's just. I don't know it's it was baffling to me because i would think i would expect a little bit better from trained professionals especially in the fbi. You know like you the ones who are supposed to know better and make approving not. Was there anyone who i mean. I know that the police assume that the reason the public came to believe it was a hoax. And you know this whole gone girl thing was because that's what the police put out there to them. Was there anyone in the media early on. Who believed you if any allies in the beginning other than your family and obviously you're friends. And i think there are. Some reporters questioned the police account Unfortunately there wasn't any articles to really support that Decisions navy be by the editors or the newspaper as a whole For some reason no one felt like to really question why people doctorate degrees working. Well respected rehab center would do a thing like this Now i think there was wine. One report that said did vallejo. Police mishandle this but again you know that didn't really go anywhere. The the more sensationalist and entertaining headline was gone girl thing. And that's what most people ran with after the kidnapper is when they send email to try to help clearer name they in great detail about the crimes committed that were verified. The police determine either. I wrote them with the help of my brother or nieces attorney them and so you look at. It was a tremendous amount like hopelessness cowed. You prove your innocence men and more importantly we felt these guys would strike again How you protect the public when it's just ran off in stone you got a hoax. And there's no change in the tide. Unfortunately one assailants attacked another family Which is a huge tragedy trauma for them. By at least that department did their job and heads -tective missy caruso was able to connect him to our crime in so. I don't think it's surprising. That was one of her first cases detective or i case a detective in surprise in it. She was a female police officer. Compared to this misogynistic meals that we saw leo. By this everything you're describing. I'm sure you already know. Is classic tunnel vision once they once they harped on it. There's nothing you know. It just had to be everything. Every piece of evidence had to be interpreted that way. Why do you think your kidnappers wrote the police. A weird thing. I think part of it was that in some way. They were remorseful You know they deluded themselves into believing that this organization that they're part avid. They're not all that bad. I mean throughout the captivity. It's like i'm dragging you this protocol. These are the guidelines that are set. And that i have to follow. I mean never mind the fact that you know. it's you create these guidelines. You know you you're you're not bound by then you can change. You know it's like we have to hold you for forty eight hours where you don't have to. You don't have to rape me. You don't have to do all these things that you do have some power in this. And so i think in some ways they were being in their minds of a hero. Like you know what we did yes. It's bad but now we're going to right the wrong And be the heroes And also i think another big part of it was that they wanted the world to see We we exist yes. We made mistakes by but look you know we fooled the police and we were getting away with it and then they detail all of the ways that they're very sophisticated and and even at one point in the email says you know. I have to pause to to note. How fantastic all this all sounds or something you know. So yeah they. They thought highly of themselves on or it's not rare earth rare that kidnappers advertisers send letters out but play hoses were zodiac. Killer had committed crimes. He said many things chronicle Was game for him to show how clever he was and is a killer was still an active case actually detectives on our case was detected. Florida zodiac killer so it's it's uncommon but not unheard of zodiac there. I didn't even think about that. But you when you talked about the the emails and multiple assailants. It seems to be that that had been something that was hard to convince others that there are multiple assailants. I thought you provided convincing evidence. But do you have any theories on these accomplices. Or i don't know it's tough to say because we we've been Deprive vein real information and as far as on those fuel in general know. Fbi investigations go to case agents and menders a technicians who can extract information through trauma or a mountain of evidence. But it's a two case agents at determine what is important what's not and nor casey's case agents are a has a major conflict of interest and the other one so we again we just won't have answers And i think china to find that would be like a sticking point for our healing so time move forward with it makes perfect sense. I completely understand so. Let me just turn to. After denise was released you discuss in the book about this period of separation but for our audience and people are listening. How long after your released two niece. How long was it until you were reunited. Nasa home invasion happened. You know the early morning hours of monday and we didn't see each other till saturday. Yeah so i. I had two days of questioning by the police and the i. R. attorneys were connected Those clear you know while you're being investigated and interrogated. He can't speak to each other. But by the end of it you know. We weren't charged in some of my. You know yes you can talk to him and so we finally were reunited. That just felt like it was never going to happen. It was just like one thing after the other like. I'm just never going to see him again. This is and and that was also a real possibility. If we were going to be charged we wouldn't able to see each other. Speak so we I think mel was hard time my life but that knowing that denise was released and not being to see her was just a 'nother level of torture I was just a shallow myself during that time Barely function and yeah and the threat of us being charged. We may not be able speak until trial which then years. Because we've been able. We will fight till trial is on imaginable to think out how difficult that would be thanked for us. You know we'd spent almost one hundred forty thousand dollars on criminal defense attorneys and we weren't even charged with a crime. I think tells you something. That system needs to change because on made people can afford that. And it's a real imbalance an injustice to our society that you need to spend cable savings and stuff to just defend yourself on your victim. I could not agree with you more on that one and when we get a little just almost when we're towards the end i actually wanna discuss possible reforms with you and ideas where you think. The system should go by the way. When i read that i was like. Oh my gosh. Please let these people see each other. You know he's reading going. please please make it. Stop like let them see each other. So i think everyone who's reading it. It's going to feel exactly what you described and how hard that was. I was wondering. I know this is probably a lot but if maybe you could describe a little bit about the period and you do in your book but for people who may or may not get the book on. Can you describe a little bit about the time you were released like inbetween like your release and when they captured the actual assailant who assaulted you both He know what was that. Like what were some of your struggles or what was going on during that period. I mean we were. We were just completely lost. You know again being two days of captivity. Where i'm thinking i'm never going to live to see another day. All i focus on are the things that give my life meaning like the you know the people in my life and for me especially my my job. I love being a physical therapist. I worked hard to get a doctorate degree And that was something. I even asked my capture. You know. do think. I'll i'll be released in time to return to work in his like. Are you kidding me. What do you you know. I don't think you need to worry about that right now. and so then having that taken away because of the lives of police said You know i mean they had everything of ours they had. Our cars are licenses are owns mean. We had to literally rebuild piece of our life and our identity and we couldn't return to to errands home. So we're basically just nomads. Going from northern to southern california staying with family and friends and People recognizing us so we don't really want to be out much. We don't know who to trust. do you think about. i'm aligarh you know. Are you going to attack me and the thing. That really us was each other. I think a lot of our family members said at that time we couldn't not be touching each other you know because we didn't think we'd each other again and to you know i don't think anyone else in the world could have understood what we were going through internally. I mean you both had. Ptsd clearly was it hard to deal with that. When the official story was that this was a hoax. How were you able to process this when it eight hundred meter. That did that impact your recovery. Oh yeah yeah keep. Tse just from the home invasion and the kidnapping Say the central salts I think you know in the world worlders people who want other individuals harm. But your hope is. There's quote good people out there to help protect you and when i was raised when you're trouble go police. And to have that whole framework Destroyed it cosmic shift in your worldview and that maybe be the longer trauma because we know we're not the only one Has happened to There's estimators over two hundred thousand instant people in jail. We are grateful that we weren't arrested. Were grateful that a The police to work in caught dangerous man. Help clear our names. There are people who are suffering for decades and their families are suffering. Their friends are suffering. Who will never get this type of resolution and initially too. I mean my nightmares weren't just about being attacked again. A lot of them were even being attacked. And i'm going to anyone to you believe me and desperately trying to get someone to believe me in old classmates nyden police looking at me in a freedom to attacked by them so a lot of the ptsd initially was the fear of the police and again because our lives were just destroyed. I think my my shock period lasted a little longer as trying to collect the pieces of my life and some of that. Pta st didn't really. Hey until maybe nine months later. When i our lives were a little bit more settled and it scared me but my therapist kind of explained it like that. That terror was living inside of you. But you just weren't in a safe place to actually process it and now you are and that was helpful because it felt lake getting worse i should should. I be still going through this nine months later year later. Many different phases of trying to figure out how to deal with the different layers of ptsd. Have either one of you ever gotten a sincere apology from law enforcement of anyone who persecuted you. Who's involved of special agent jason walther. We saw him at the preliminary hearing for muller state trial a couple of years ago and he january apologize do believe he was in a tough situation. Newest agent yet his supervisors. Were you know on this is a hoax. But he he apologized to me. Apologize to denise More importantly he he said this case will stick with him and he'll think about as he investigates other cases and that is why we got shared his story and we hope that law enforcement us Because there are there are preventable measures. That can happen in People make mistakes but they need evaluated learned from him now where doubling down tripling down not impossible assault case when it was was it didn't take sherlock holmes to solve his case just took basic police work. I agree i. I mean as i read through it. I went Didn't they do x y and z. Before you even stated it. I was thinking these things and i agree. Wouldn't have taken sherlock. That brings me to a good question though because you were talking about preventable measures and things that law enforcement can do. Can you guys discuss some of the reforms that you're you're you're advocating for. I know that it's probably relates to victim rights. I don't know if maybe you have interrogation or just some of the areas that you believe we need real reform in the criminal justice system. Fortunately fortunately we're starting to see a little bit shift towards Eliminating deceptive techniques in interrogation room so illinois just passed a law to ban those techniques at least for juveniles. New york oregon are have similar laws. I would love to see that tall fifty states and not just juvenile population as a whole. There's people don't realize that the police can lie to you in the nation room with impunity. And they will not they can they will lie to you and they will distort facts enable make you feel like you've lost your mind at one. Point is question on senior the this great a foster tunnel vision foster's confirmation bias I think if we eliminated those and reduce interogations to maximum for hours those positive steps that would lead towards actually solving crimes and basing evidence objective measures in as instead of arrogance and intuition and reducing. False confessions there any other area. Sorry i didn't know if you were advocating for anything in terms of victim rights as well. Yeah i mean it's it's crazy. How many different times. We were victimized even after muller's Is you know through the whole the whole process for the state trial that still pending. He was able to represent himself. He would get a defense attorney and fire him and get one and so for the preliminary hearing for the trial. He was representing himself was in a position of power to be able to cross. Examine me and erin and it was up to him. Choose not to but the whole time. I'm sitting up there on the stand And the prosecutors asking me questions details specific details about the raves. What part of him touched. What part of me in a public setting with him his eyes on me and the whole time. I'm not sure he gets to ask me these same types of question. I mean it was be three traumatizing. But at the same time i felt like i mean this is what i have to do. The police going to go on the stand for us. We have the responsibility. if he's gonna be held accountable for his crimes. We have to go through this in order to do that. and i just realized how little rights victims have And that's even in a state of california that has become an extensive bill of rights based on marc's law you know but that's a Organization that that i think is going to be really helpful. They're trying to get amendments to each state's constitutions include a bill of rights for victims and from the outside looking in you think it's so basic wake of course you know the victim should have the right to know if their attacker is released from prisoner but there because it's not stated in the constitution. It's ni- victims often are treated with that respect so i think that is a big step But then you know the app to make sure that it's not only written by it's actually enforced. You know so. The there are a lot of great organizations that are making huge steps by. It's also i think along process and we wanna do whatever we can in any way to help support those organizations that are making change while. I'm sure your book is going to contribute in that way. But was it also therapeutic for you guys to write this book. Oh yeah i mean. It was more than anything empowering Even those difficult moments having to sit with them and and and away relive them A lot of those moments even with the celts. You know i was so detached in shock to even i was really able to process it so it was really helpful to be able to be in a safe place and get that opportunity and also it was very validating. We're going through piece by piece step by step. I'm like oh my god. This is awful. You know things that. I even forgot like. Oh yeah that happened. Mike got no wonder it took so it's it's affected our lives so much and it is a long process and it's been messy. You know there's a lot of factors At play so nothing think to the zahle actually a physical place to put our trauma like eventually in a book in we can it still affects. Change us for the rest are lies. But there's a there's a a little separation mostly charged as it used to be now ryan was challenging but more importantly the stories we tell ourselves is is affects us the most so we can take this trauman and continued to maybe the ourselves as victims or we could shift it in help other people and by taking something bad in hopefully making a positive impact that helps you re work while you're doing And i know that the the facts are case are extraordinarily but the way we dealt with trauma and how that affected us is is universal Would recommend anyone who's going through a difficult time to try a fine like a little moment of giving back to the be picking up litter off off the ground because it makes you feel useful again at some level and below steps help build a direction and not straight line but it's messy as he said but i think there's a path for nets were open story helps people gathered strength. I think it will for sure and it does sound like you guys have moved forward Is there such a thing as closure. And if so d i mean is there a thing do you have it. I just wonder at the end. I mean yes in some ways for example me looking matthew muller and the is at the federal sentencing and having him cmih finally that was for me like okay. I i can move on from that and in a way writing. The book is like okay. I don't have to hold onto all of these little details. The truth is out. And i can be released from a little bit so in some ways. Yes in another way. It's not like it's gone it. It's always a part of us and we have to learn how to live side by side with it. But but you can you know. It's just it takes time to figure out how to do that. The i think there's a time like the idea of like recovery A question the word recovery. Sometimes because you can't recovering these gone back to how you were before and you can't after something this dramatic You can't if you lose a family member or you have a serious disease. You can't go back. I look like how can we evolve and doesn't mean it's bad it's different than there's a lot of good that can come from that so in that sense i don't worry so much about closure little moments of steppingstone ticket. You going forward. But it's more about evolving as a couple in individual and as a parent and that gives us meaning that's for employment. We'll see what we can to try to be a part of whatever change You know so. So we'll we'll be will be around. I have no doubt sorry. Amy just wanted to ask something before we sign off. Yes and not gonna keep you. Because i know where early over time and i really do appreciate your time. This has been amazing. I'm the only thing that you didn't mention was how much your story is helping other victims like the case of sherry pechiney in california. I'm sure you're aware of that case end i. I came across your story. Denise when i was covering sheri's case and the reason why you know a lot of people were saying that was a hoax and the only reason why the police backed off i think is because they saw what happened in vallejo. And how you know. So i just want to point out that besides the fact that this book is so powerful and i really do believe it's going to make a change and i know i speak for megan and other academics. When i say i will be using this book in my classroom because it talks about victimization violent crime but being more so the victim of a system and the fact that you're both such survivors and there's so many issues that are brought up. You know what happened to you is so awful and you know. I'm just so happy to see that. So much good is coming from it. And i don't think you can realize how many lifezette is really touching that means the world. Thank you was such a powerful interview with denise and aaron and it is so admirable would have done with this tragedy. How they've turned this around into something positive yet. And i really urge all of our listeners. To get their book read it and spread the message and amy. I actually think i might have. My students read this book as well especially in my classes on crime and punishment this different take and i think one that you know students and everyone really needs to be exposed to. I agree and like the title suggests. I love how the book shows how they go from being victims two suspects to survivors. I think that's a real takeaway here to give real true meaning to the word survivor and thanks again to listeners. And we'll catch next time on women and crime. Women crime is written and hosted by megan sacks and amy schlossberg our producer and editor is james. Varga music composition is by desert media. If you enjoy the show please remember to subscribe and leave a review. You can also support the show while gaining access to add free episodes exclusive ama's and other bonus content for a small monthly contribution for patriot for more information visit patriotic dot com slash women and crime sources for today's episode include victim f crime victims two suspects to survivors. Abc news nbc. Bay area people mercury news the reporter and the la times.

denise aaron erin Denise Aaron aaron quinn acorn meghan vallejo maggie sherry pechiney David thorne jason baldwin denise hoskins Von lane evonne maggie free meghan amy abigail peres ethan
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom - Melissa Lucio

Wrongful Conviction Podcasts

53:13 min | 4 months ago

Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom - Melissa Lucio

"Melissa lucius grew up poor in south texas victim of years of sexual abuse from multiple offenders in the home at age sixteen. She married her boyfriend to escape tying up her self worth and being a mother so much so that she eventually had fourteen children. The vinyl two twins melissa delivered behind bars after having been accused of allegedly murdering the next youngest sibling two year old maria on february fifteenth. Two thousand seven mariah's gambling's witnessed her take a tumble down the stairs. Lethargy and a lack of appetite were hoped to be symptoms of something less severe than head trauma but when she became unresponsive on february seventeenth called. The ms mariah passed away. An aggressive. Interrogation ensued resulting in an admission to an overarching sense of guilt. That most any mother would feel. The usual bruising from rough play with her siblings was later. Used to support the state's theory of a pattern of abuse melissa's conviction would also go a long way to shore up a tough on crime. Image for corrupt district attorney embroiled in a bribery scandal during an election year defined logic and the scientific method. The state's forensic pathologist ruled out mariah's ball down the stairs as the cause of bail head trauma further the children who witnessed the accident and denied the pattern of abuse. Were not called to testify after trial. Melissa's defense attorney was immediately hired to the da's office with a bump in pay. The da guy reelected was later prosecuted by the fbi. And melissa is still on death row. This is wrongful conviction with jason. Flom looking for a new podcast. Binge let us tell you about murder alliance on april fools day. Nineteen ninety nine twenty six year old. Yvonne lane westbound nearly decapitated in her ohio home. Her kids slapped nearly everyone who knew even had a motive to kill her but her ex boyfriend and father of one of her children. David thorne was the one sentence to life without parole for the murder but evidence points to his innocence now twenty two years later investigative journalist. Maggie freeling is reinvestigating the case alongside jason baldwin himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the west memphis. Three and his organisation proclaim justice. Maggie and the team of investigators are on the ground in alliance ohio. The town where the murder happened where they are uncovering new suspects new evidence police corruption and potential cover up and the reporting their investigation in realtime find murdering alliance. Wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to wrongful. Conviction with jason flom. Today we're talking about the case of melissa. Lucio an innocent woman on death row in texas today to tell this incredible harrowing and urgent story. we have with us. Sabrina van tassell. Sabrina is an acclaimed documentary. Filmmaker and investigative journalist who has made forty five films. And i think maybe it was all build up to this one. Sabrina welcome to wrongful convictions. Thank you so much. And with her is a bad ass. Texas attorney named margaret schmacher and margaret has been a fierce form melissa as her habeas attorney margaret. Welcome to rafa conviction. Thank you for having me and thank you. Both for being here So over the past few years. Sabrina has visited melissa. Lucy on death row in texas where she's been stuck since two thousand and eight and throughout this episode. You're going to hear excerpts from those interviews that you can also see an ear inn. Sabrina film the state of texas versus melissa. And during those interviews. Melissa really was very candid with you about her life. Which was just beyond tragic from the very beginning. So melissa was born in houston. Her father left the mom when she was three months old and they moved to harlingen texas and the mother cat being. You know with different boyfriends there were all of us. I was molested by. My mother's boyfriend must've been about seven years old when the abuse started. I grew up not feeling because of this incident. I continue to be molested by family members. I just allow myself to be a the over and over again. She did tell her mother. The was sexually abusing her and The mother basically did not believe her and then she basically allowed herself to be victim. Two other men in the family And once she was about fifteen years old the first boyfriend that she got involved with She married and she started a family right. After by the age of twenty two she already had five children. Her husband introduced her to drugs and one day. The husband just left her and so all of a sudden she's twenty two and she has five children and she meets her other partner robert alvarez and together they're going to have nine other children right and two of those nine were twins that melissa delivered in jail while she was being held for the alleged murder of her youngest child at that time era so before mariah died there were five from the first guy and seven from robert alvarez for a total of twelve so some of them were still really little. Some of them were teenagers. Some of them met even moved out by the time away. Two thousand seven rolled around which is when this incident happened but before that they were all living in desperate desperate party and relying on a charity called lows in fishes for most of their meals. Melissa and robert had very unpredictable schedules because they were doing all sorts of odd jobs trying to support the family and to keep up with all of it or two. i don't know maybe forget. Their troubles melissa will using drugs out of the site of the children but regrettably while she was pregnant with mariah. When melissa had mariah the seventh child with roberta alvarez she was born with drugs in her system and so she was taken from. Melissa mr by cps chop sector services along with all of the other kids that were in the home at that time and they were placed in foster care they were fairly well split up. That continued for several years and melissa. Roberta were given supervised visits with chop -tective services with the kids. And then finally when moore is about two years old over thanksgiving. Cps returned the seven children. Who were still minors at the time back into the home of melissa and roberta and so it is from that point until the point where mariah dies where. There's nine children in the home in this small. Second story apartment with a rickety scary stairwell on the exterior which is the access point right and to make this accident even more likely to happen. Mariah had this is important physical impairment as well. One of her feet was turned in slightly which caused her to be unstable at the fall. Downstairs occasionally as was documented while she was in foster care. But that's not. All that was documented in those child protective services reports there was a tremendous amount of inter sibling violence while in foster care and when they were living at home especially from the older sisters discipline the younger ones who they resented having to care for while their parents were at work and then the boys were very rambunctious as well. Yeah i mean the boys were fighting. You know all the time and you know there were big on. Wwe keep in mind cps comes by once in a while and so we have the cps reports and on one of those the very less time they came to visit which was two months prior to mariah's death. There is concerned that you know the places too small that they're you know small objects on the floor that those stairs are very dangerous and the parents are not around and basically it's up to the teenage daughters to supervise them so among the many problems. They've gotta move out of this decrepit totally unfit apartment with the rickety stairs and they found a first floor apartment with just two or three steps leading up to the door and that move was going to be happening. Over the course of february fifteenth sixteenth and seventeenth of two thousand seven and so melissa and roberto were in the process of trying to get the family moved and so some of the kids were with their mom. Some of the kids were with their dad. They're going back and forth with in a pickup truck taking loads barabra. Being at that point about two and a half years old was in the second story apartment with her mom and at least one of the teenage daughters while they were trying to pack things up several of the serve younger age children about eight nine years old. Were downstairs playing in the backyard at some point. Melissa and daughter are in one of the bedrooms. they're packing up close. What have you and one of the kids who's playing in the backyard came upstairs. He went into the apartment to get a drink of water and there was a screen door on that exteriors or the had latch on it and when he went back downstairs to go play he left that door unlatched and mariah. Who as we've already discussed was unstable on her feet. Because of her small deformity went to go follow her brother and she started down the stairs and fell when of her brothers saw her as she sort of tumbled the last three or four steps and hit her head on the pavement. Melissa at this point goes looking for her and finds more at the bottom of the stairwell and she checks her over and doesn't see any serious injury doesn't look like she's broken any bones or anything and mariah's not crying she's not acting like she's hurt and so she takes mariah in back upstairs and they continue to pack incomplete the move to the new apartment so by time saturday rolls around mariah has already had disclosed head injury from this fall down the stairs that is not noticeable from her head or scalp and her progression of symptoms during that time period is exactly what you would expect for a child of that age. Who's had a serious close head injury. And who has swelling on the brain it progresses from lethargy to near not wanting to eat to ultimately some more serious symptoms where she has lockjaw and then she basically was conscious although to her parents she still just sleeping and at that point. They're already in this first floor. Apartment and roberto alvarez. Mary comes back and he goes to check on mariah and she is non responsive and so they do end up calling. Ems and ems shows up at this apartment and they see injuries bruises on mariah. That they don't have any explanation for and they hear melissa siwa. She fell down the stairs few days ago and thought she was okay but maybe she wasn't and the ems jump to the conclusion that the stairs melissa is talking about are the two or three steps from the ground floor apartment. They are now in and they have no knowledge of bespoke flight of stairs at prior apartment. That they were living just a few days earlier and so the ems are incredulous to say. The least i owe you know. A kid can't get injured falling down two or three stairs and so they try and resuscitate mariah unsuccessfully which can leave its own kinds of bruises on the body but the take her to the hospital she does pass away and melissa is arrested and taken to the playstation so when she was pronounced dead mariah. Of course i'm talking about in the. Er she was examined initially by any our physician in vargas and he noted that she had sustained significant physical abuse. He said she had several bruises that were in various stages of healing and that there were bite marks on her back and that one of her arms have been broken sometime two to seven weeks prior and that she was missing portions of her hair but vargas said he found no outward sign of head injury. So you can see how. There's like a straight line connecting this to the interrogation. The interrogators was taking these findings from this doctor. And then trying to put those words into melissa's mouth. I mean you're not wrong. This information was all been conveyed. The police and the police went in to the interrogation room with melissa with already the preconceived notion that this had you have been physical abuse and it had to have been physical abuse by melissa in their view because she was Primary caretaker because she was the mother. And that's where her nightmare really sort of begins as far as her involvement with the criminal justice system in this case because she is interrogated at length well into the night and early wee hours of the morning by multiple police officers who are aggressively denying. Her explanation debt mariah had fallen down the stairs and her attempt sticks lane any older injuries that might have as having been the result of the rough play with her other older kids which is well documented by cps and by other just sort of slips balls because she has a tendency to do that and they just aggressively denied. This denied is denying. They won't believe her. And emily in the wee hours of morning. They get her to say that she's responsible. And the never get her to say really that she murdered mariah or that she hit her on the head or anything they just get basically to admit responsibility in the overarching way of a mother. Being responsible for the circumstances that led to her child's death and so she is charged with capital murder at that point. It's actually remarkable that she was able to not really confess. I mean they called it a confession but she didn't really confess but eventually she was questioned by a texas ranger named ascalon she confessed basic having spanked mariah several times quote day after day and other minor abuses which we now know didn't happen like biting her so she was confessing things that didn't even make any sense at all because they weren't true she was just basically trying to say. I guess anything she could to get out of this awful situation and advance interrogator so far. Ask melissa demonstrate the spanking on a doll and was encouraged by the investigator to spank doll. Harder right i mean and this is on video right. Can you send to show me how you would do it. I mean the way you actually did. Just put on your back cordola. Hardly do it the way you would still do. I mean i wanted to pound on her or was it harder. Because i just i don't do it hard. Will hundred on yourself this. I mean i was in crawling on her renting do yes and this is just what my name is. Dr john pinkerton. I was the conical psychologist appointed to listen. Lucio's defense team. Nossa had a history of certainly abuse sexual abuse and mistreatment going back into adolescence and continuing throughout her adulthood in which she acquiesced to multiple individuals that abused her she became pretty compliant with individuals didn't tend to break free from them often continued the relationships even though they're really self-defeating for so we felt this was you know an i felt it was really a problem issued that helped explain some of the behavior that she evidence during the interrogation and how she came to provide an acquiescence. I don't know if i want to call it a confession. An act be essence to the investigators in regard to her conduct. I i was struck by how she was explaining that she was spanking the children her spanking on melissa and she was eight appeared like coach to to show stronger force in striking the table in the interview room. You know all of that contradicted every piece of information that we had that she provided physical discipline to the children. We never heard that from any of the children and certainly not to the extent of causing the alleged injury subsequent death. It's important to note that he didn't just encourage her to spank the harder i mean. He encouraged her to confess to things which she had no knowledge of or had no part of the he told her there was a bite on mariah's back and got her to confess to having bitten mariah and at least my medical expert so that wasn't even a bite mark. It was a parallel stray. Shen bruises from having fallen down the flight of stairs on her shoulder. Blade and so ranger ascalon got melissa to admit to a type of abuse of mariah that did not exist. That had not happened at all and again. That's sort of a hallmark of a false confession is getting somebody to confess to something that there's no evidence of at the end of it and this really is such a painful thing to think about and i saw it of course in the film but she ultimately says i wish it was me that got hurt and then started. Crying pitchers issues. Maybe is there anything else. You wanna is three fifteen. Am that will end the interview. This episode is underwritten by paul weiss. Rifkind orton and garrison. A leading international law firm. Paul weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society and in support of the public interest including extensive work in the criminal. Justice area. So during the interrogation ascalon asked melissa if they'd find a fractured skull during the autopsy. Even though the er physician said there was no sign of head injury but escalante had a theory so on monday february. One thousand nine hundred two thousand seven. The chief forensic pathologist of cameron had counties named norma jean farley had conducted an autopsy and ruled that due to the presence of blood pooled in the cranial fault that the cause of death was quote blunt force head trauma and then she went on during the trial to say that a fall downstairs could not possibly have been the cause but that doesn't sound like science. That sounds like conjecture right. Oh absolutely my name is dr thomas young. I am a forensic pathologist. Mac in two thousand ten. I was contacted by margaret smucker. Who served as an appellate attorney on the case of texas versus melissa lucia. She wanted me to look at the Offer opinions that. I could make to a reasonable degree of medical certainty. Knocker norma jean barley who is also forensic pathologist as made a mistake very common infrared with olicas. The idea that you can look at an autopsy that you can look at findings on body and able to determine the very very complex succession events that happened in the past lead to that event. This is reasoning backwards. It doesn't work it is like trying to solve. Blight blanket was four. If you think or is the consequences blank was blank looking at ford. Doesn't give you the answer to what goes in the blanks. There already numerous witness as to what happened to see the succession of events that occurred that led to the outcome. What dr farley did was she reasoned backwards ignoring all these witness accounts. She says that she knows for certain. What happened here to mariah algorithms and this is arrogant where you ignore when multiple witnesses saying who were there to actually see what happened. This is absurd. This is just a flat guess. The doctor farley approaches it as if she is certain of this how does she know that you cannot get head trauma from a full down the stairs. I mean it makes no sense. you know. The science has developed at the time of mariah's step in sense that it is possible for a while to fall down even very short flight of stairs and have a fatal head injury. All i can say is normal fairly was just wrong on the science on that you put an expert on the witness stand and the jury gives them an awful lot of credence if they have appropriate credentials. And of course. Norma jean farley was the medical examiner for the county and so they give her testimony quite a bit of credibility clearly enriching. The verdict that they did sure sounds like the science is being adjusted to fit the narrative when that is exactly the opposite of how this all should function right now we get to the trial which the state argued that melissa had confessed to a pattern of abuse and inflicting fatal blows that killed mariah even though the video clearly shows that that is not the case so they supported the theory. That melissa was abusive with evidence. That mariah had ruses which we know she did that. We're at various stages of healing but we also have covered why they were there and that had nothing to do with melissa except for the fact that she was not in control of our own life at that point right. And norma jean farley again is chief. Forensic pathologist testified that mariah's debts was the result of blunt force head trauma. She continue that it must have occurred within twenty four hours of death and that it would have been immediately apparent that moore was in distress and in need of medical attention now. Farley testified that mariah suffered multiple contusions to ahead area but some how she was magically able to rule out that the strikes to the head were not the result of tumbling down the stairs. Now i don't think she witnessed tumbling down the stairs so again. How in the world which she know that while she wouldn't but this is probably what she thought that the authorities wanted to hear so just just so we're clear melissa's defense did put on the stand an expert. Dr curry correct. Yes they did. But when they qualify dr couriers expert since he was a pediatric neurologist. He was not a forensic scientist so they did not allow him to testify regarding the source of any of her other injuries. Anywhere below the neck and so because of the defense didn't hire better expert or more appropriate expert. They were not able to counter the state's case that all of these prior injuries were from being beaten repeatedly over a period of weeks or months. But he did contradict norwegian. Farley's testimony in the timing of the head injury that caused her death in origin. Farley had said that the injury had to have occurred approximately twenty four hours prior to her death. Dr curry who is a pediatric neurologist. Testified that could have occurred earlier than that. You know anywhere from forty eight to seventy two hours before she died and so that becomes important when you look at the timeline of events of the family moving and everybody being together either at the old place in the new place or in transit About whether or not melissa was ever alone with mariah. Melissa was never alone with variety. Yeah when you go back through all of the evidence that the state had collected whether they used it or not at trial you find. That melissa was never alone with the kids at all. Whether you look at the timeline suggested by dr farley or you look at the time lines suggested by dr curry. She was always with family members. They were always together as a family. Either you know a few kids or more everybody. During that whole seventy two hour period and not one of those kids has ever said that. During that time period that melissa ever hurt mariah ever touched her in any kind of aggressive way. How could you possibly be alone in a room or apartment with nine. kids is it's preposterous. They did not present the evidence that she was never alone within that twenty. Four to seventy two hours prior to mariah's death and the kids were never allowed to testify that they'd never seen their mom hit mariah during that period time and she was never alone with mariah during that period of time. And then there's the issue with dr. Pay herman the defense did try to put. Dr pinkus on to talk about why melissa might have made this so called confession being responsible when in fact she was not and the court refused to allow dr pinkus. German testified that my colleague normal jilin away a social worker and she and i developed different viewpoints theories about the case as we went along in our meetings with the defense team we raised questions in our meetings and i can remember at least one occasion going to the second chair. Counsels is sort of asking you know. Is it possible that we could take a look at these issues who concerns that individual said that he thought it might be a good idea but he deferred to the lead attorney. Mr gilman i was not asked to provide any testimony during the guilt. Innocence phase of the trial in these sense phase. I felt my testimony was abbreviated and truncated in a way because there was a lot of background information that i was prepared to offer to the court that would i hope mitigate the ultimate sentence it seemed that there was not much interest in having that information as i understand of course. The appeal was based on specifically on my opportunity or lack of opportunity. Present that kinda viewpoint. Milissa didn't have anybody on her behalf. Her kids weren't allowed to testify. Nobody was allowed to. She was alone in her defense because no one was really brought in to testify even though the her trial attorneys knew that the older girls had admitted to causing mariah's injuries. They knew that the younger kids had testified to seeing mariah fall down the stairs and they knew or should have known if they'd put two and two together all the various pieces of evidence that were available to them. That melissa was never alone with mariah the time but they never put any of that evidence on with what the jury was presented with the results. Who are as predictable as they were tragic and wrong. She was convicted and sentenced to death when the jury came back and said that they found me guilty. Even though i did hear the word guilty wanna step it. The best way to describe it is. I felt like i was in a dream and then i will wake up and i would be at home with my kids you know. Everybody was screaming and crying and they let me out from the courtroom back to myself. And i remember i slept. I just tried to block out everything that had happened in that courtroom. There thousand reasons. Why protecting your home matters you. And luckily remain has security products for every corner of your home inside and out and you can see it all in one simple app so now to get ring alarm for yourself. Go to ring dot com slash wrongful. It's the perfect to start your ring experience and you know me. At first. i was worried. My dog might set off the motion sensors but i was able to easily set up my sensors. So that wasn't an issue at all and my dogs lulu and freddie like that to one of the best parts is with ring you can keep an eye on your home no matter where you are right from your phone you peace of mind anytime by knowing that your home is protected so protect your whole home with rain alarm a powerful affordable whole home security system that you can easily install yourself. Start protecting your home today with ring alarm. Go to ring dot com slash wrongful to get your rain alarm security get to. Hey you can build. The system is right for your home and have it up and running in minutes. That's ring dot com slash wrongful ring dot com slash wrongful. How do everyday people get drawn into extremist groups like neo-nazis or the proud boys can we prevent the next generation for being radicalized by hate. Is it too late to slow. The tide of white supremacy sweeping across our country in sounds like hate an investigative podcast from the southern poverty. Law center hosts geraldine maria and jamila proxima explored these questions and discuss how to dismantle hate in our communities this season. They'll take you inside and fbi rate at a hate campaign michigan. Follow one man's journey that led him to the capital insurrection and learn how one woman took on an army of confederate sympathizers in her town. You can hear these stories and more on season. Two of sounds like hey. I figured my children were able to testify that they would be able to. You know next. And i know that they would. They would come out. And say the truth and mr goldman. He told me no because he didn't know what the prosecutors had in store for him and he didn't want them to try to manipulate them and he built that it wasn't there wasn't a need for children to the us. Then someone listening to this cold would probably come away with the impression that the defense attorney was almost like an adjunct prosecutor and as crazy as that sounds. It's not that crazy. When you think about the fact that he went to work for the prosecutor immediately after the trial and why would the prosecutors office hire him at a higher salary than the season prosecutors. That were already working there immediately. After having watched him do as terrible of a job as an attorney can possibly do for their client. It's just stinks bad. It's it does stink but let me make some clarifying points about what really happened right. Before mariah dies there was another murder case in brownsville area. And the defendant was a guy by the name of amish livingston and mr livingston ins up i believe pleading guilty to murder but with the agreement of the district attorney's office armando villalobos. He is released in order to put his affairs in order before he has to go to prison. When he's released he disappears into the wind. He's found more than a decade later hiding out in india but in any event at the time he's gone missing in action and the newspapers pick this up in their wounded. The district attorney's office agree with this. You know what's going on here. This was all very bad. Press for mr villalobos. Who was getting ready to run for re election of district attorney of cameron county. He needed a win and he needed a win. Big and right after all this happened is when mariah dot and melissa the perfect target. She's poor she's hispanic. There's a dead baby with a lot of bruises. This is the perfect vehicle for mr villalobos to go. I'm hard on crime. Reluctant to district attorney's office so obviously melissa gets convicted sentenced to death. Mr viola skits reelected and within a fairly reasonable time after mr villalobos reelected. That's when pete gilman goes to work for the district attorney's office on fucking believable. Please continue now. I did an open records request to find out about the hiring process. For mr gilman and what i found out with. He was supposedly interviewed on an unknown or unstated date by mr via himself and was hired and had accepted the job before he'd even submitted a cv or resume to the human resources department. He was hired first and then he submitted those papers so that was kind of showers. And then you find out that he gets a pretty good salary. District attorneys. don't usually get paid the way attorneys of private practice. do it's usually a starter salary. A stepping stone to something bigger. He gets hired in pretty significant rate and then his wife is also hired at the courthouse and between the two of them are bringing down a six figure salary. While you know when you think you've heard everything. And i always think if we think i've heard it all and then then there's this i mean where. Where do these people come from. Did they sleep at night. I mean it just to recap. He's accepted the job. We don't know exactly when it could have been before the trial for all we know right. He couldn't have actually been working for the prosecution while supposedly defending melissa. And let's just look at what he did and did not do during the trial. This gilman character failed to call as witnesses his children who had seen mariah fall down the stairs okay. That alone is bucking shocking. Then there was the social worker right. Norma villanueva to whom melissa's daughter alexandra bravely had said that she was the reason mariah fell down the stairs. The social worker was instructed by gilman to not alert. Anyone to the statement that sounds like the work of an adjunct prosecutor. She was not of course called to testify. That testimony could have been extremely valuable. There was also a host of witnesses that were interviewed and or put on the stand by the state that together never placed melissa loan with araya yet. The witness ever saw melissa beat mariah at anytime and melissa dry. Whenever alone. we know that farley's theory of first year law student could have connected these dots and shown that farley's theory was nonsense but none of that was ever done for the jury and then process this with me for a second right. So there's a horrible interview with yeoman after he had already joined the prosecutor's office formally instead of only you know Well anyway but he said and i quote. She was not a good mother. Did she kill her child. I dunno end quote. Well i can tell you something When i interviewed peter gillman because that's in the film you applaud. That melissa was his worst enemy. He had nothing nice to say about her. He went on and on. It was quite extraordinary. And i said to him i kept asking him. I was like what was your strategy. What was your strategy at trout. And he couldn't answer. I think i asked him that question. Maybe seven times. What was your strategy i mean. Did you believe that it was an accident that you believe you could answer. He had no strategy. He had a strategy. It wasn't a defence strategy but he had a strategy and to get himself a better job so in case. You haven't heard enough yet and in case you were looking for an even more terrible villain in this story. If such thing as possible void a we have one for you now. The elected district attorney a gentleman named armando via lobos. And mr villalobos was at the time of this all that stuff taking place. He himself was at the center of an fbi investigation and for good reason. There was a public scandal that urge because he was using his office to enrich and empower himself through several different schemes. One of which was bribery. In exchange for favorable outcomes at trial he was involved with cartels. You would bring lawyer isn and judges to las vegas and pretend to lose and poker game so you know. He could bribe them. It goes on and on basically he's agenda was to take money from people who could pay him and then four people like melissa he would use to be reelected he the moment he heard about melissa's case he was at the police station. I mean while melissa's being interrogated. I mean he's already there. He just completely used her case. You know margaret will tell you how very rare for as to actually get personally involved you know. In cases i mean he even did the ending statement at her trial not only did the innings statement but he actually examined one of the state's witnesses and he had the state's witness get up off the witness. Stand and pretend to shake a child like shaken baby syndrome which has questionable scientific background especially for a child of mariah's age. If you talk to the scientists they will tell you that a child is largest mariah if you shake on her hard enough to cause the brain to sort of shake back and forth inside the skull and damage you have to have broken her neck but he nevertheless has this witness get up off the witness stand in stand in front of the jury and pretended violate shake a child as a demonstration. You know. I don't know how intensely that played into the jury's verdict but i'm sure it wasn't ignored and then he took part in the sentencing phase to make sure that she got death. I mean he had to prove to the jury future dangerousness right and melissa had never been arrested before and melissa had no prior history of violence whatsoever so all of a sudden he needs to prove to the jury that you know she so violent that she actually might be a danger to prisoners. And that's why she needs to be on death row right. Let's put it this way. I mean if melissa lucio is the type of person that is actually the most dangerous person in america that she would end up on death row. I mean you know we. We're in trouble. She wasn't even the most dangerous person in the courtroom. Da the most dangerous person in the courtroom. He was running a continuing criminal enterprise. He's doing backroom deals with cartels. He's bribing judges and lawyers. he's selling verdicts leading. Murderers serial. murderers run free. I mean this guy you'll be a cartoon villain except there's nothing funny about any of it so we know how rare it is for prosecutors to be prosecuted but this one the fbi took very seriously and they got involved to say the least right. How did it ended up well. I interviewed michael win. Who was the lead prosecutor against armando villalobos. And of course. I never had any contact with the fbi. But he told me that they were trying to get him because he was running for congress and they wanted to make sure that that did not happen so there trying to get him. They had so much on him. You know the feedback. That i got on that later was there was so much on mr villalobos that they decided to stick to sort of their slam dunk case for conviction because they just needed him gone and so melissa steph. It came out a little bit in the field. Lobos trial on the bit about amish livingston and all of that did come out at trial in melissa's involvement in that came out in trial but it was very very limited. It wasn't the focus of their energies at mr viola versus federal criminal trial. You know i find that extraordinary announced later that you know you have a court appointed attorney who now works at the. Da's office who basically did not defend melissa at all. And then you have a da. Who got thirteen years of federal prison. But you know that has nothing to do with melissa case and you know her case should not be. Reexamined gets infuriating. No you're absolutely right every single case that this guy had anything to do with needs to be immediately reopened and thoroughly reexamined. And i'm not saying to be clear. The everybody that he prosecuted is innocent but a lot of them probably are and in any case. It's abundantly clear that almost none of them could have possibly gotten a fair trial and melissa absolutely did not get what she is constitutionally guarantee which fair trial and what i find particularly shocking is. They've gilman hasn't even been disbarred. I mean this. Case is a literal poster child for ineffective assistance of counsel but melissa remains a death row to this very day and the state of texas is desperately continuing to try to execute her so her direct appeal was denied. You filed state. Habeas and then it moves onto federal habeas and ended up in fifth circuit court of appeals which is conservative federal court that sits on top of texas among other states. And it's that point that i ended up being dropped out of the case but what ended up happening. There was a alternately A panel of the fifth circuit three judges initially heard the case ordered at melissa. Should get a new trial The state was not happy with that outcome. They ask for what's called a rehearing on bonk which is a rehearing in front of all of the justices of the fifth circuit court of appeal The requests for on bunker hearing granted and there was another argument and just recently the fifth circuit issued an opinion which was deeply divided That denied melissa. The writer new trial again for what happened in the state court so from here. She has basically ninety days from that date to file a request for her case to be heard in the united states. Supreme court take what one percent of cases probably probably less than one percent of the cases. So you know her. Her odds of having ks taken or not good and wants to send the supreme court. It can take a while. But if they deny certain. It's it's all over. There are some some additional posts conviction procedural maneuvers which may take place since. I'm no longer her attorney. I don't know what they're going to be doing. But from my perspective because the state. You're what i would consider to be junked science. The shaken baby testimony the fall down the stairs can't cause a head injury testimony. That's where think that. Potentially her new council could go back into the courts on the science on her behalf and may may also be able to file a civil rights action on her behalf. Maybe going back to some issues with Mr villalobos that the way that her case was even presented in ended up in court in first place was a result of a violation of her civil rights. I ask you to please join me. In supporting melissa. The one simple steps you can take goto action network dot org. That's action network dot org to sign a petition and they will be more links in our bio for other constructive steps you can take your voice matters so please spread the word get involve. Let's save melissa before it's too late and sabrina. I watched your movie and in no small part. That's why we're here. Because your movie is such a powerful piece of documentary filmmaking and tells his story so hauntingly access the film well. The film is called the state of texas versus melissa being stream right now. It's on hulu and now we turn to the part of our show that always seems to be the best closing arguments and how this works is very simple first of all. I wanna thank our to esteemed guests for just coming in sharing your passion and your expertise. Course i'm talking about sabrina. Van tassell and march muck. Thank you both again for being here. Thank you for having us. Thank you jason. So much closing arguments. Works like this I turn off my microphone back in my chair. Just listen to whatever you have to say whatever you feel there is left to say after this extraordinary conversation. So we'll start off with margaret than sabrina and then melissa talked about other lawyers in this. I feel like i need to make it clear that you know. There's nothing i've said today. That isn't readily available as a matter of court recor. It's been in the state courts it's been in the federal courts. If you're got the energy you can go. Look it up. But you know the key. Take home points You know that there is isn't was you know some level of corruption involved in this case and that's a concern that there is evidence that you know melissa could not have caused more injuries. In the time. Brian that she was said to have caused them in That she's never been violent with their kids. There is an absolute difference between physical abuse which is a positive action and neglect which is an absence at an action in her entire history is neglect because she just had too many kids and we have to always also be concerned about the fact that are we looking all of this evidence through the lens of white privilege and we have to take a step back and say you can't do that. You have to look at it from her perspective. And what was going on in her life and why she was acting the way she was and of course for that. We had dr pinker man and asked the physical stuff. Obviously we have dr yang. Who who's been very helpful. In this case i would really hope that at some point. Melissa's case we'll get back into court and that she will be fully exonerated and we'll be set free to be with her children. I want to say her name. Her name is melissa. Lucio and she's been away from her children for thirteen years. She hasn't seen most of her kids and that length of time and she's never seen her mother again. She's never seen her brothers and sisters. I mean she's been alone on deathrow twenty four hours a day waiting for her fate and she someone who didn't then you know a chance from the first day and i hope and pray that people will get interested in her case and start tweeting about her and talking about her and raise this horrible story. Together we'll find a way to get her out of there and now we'll hear from melissa. My name is melissa elizabeth lucille. I'm forty eight years old. i have four children. It's been very hard to wake up each morning. And not now. I hear them calling now for me. The state of texas wants to kill me every day. I asked god. I often think about my daughter mariah. I've had a lot of dreams about her. I clean that her. And i are out there in that. She's running around in her little dress and she's wanting me to calmer hair brush. Her hair put breads on her hair paint. Her nails paint her toenails and put some lipstick on her lips. It's hard to have drizzle body your children because when you wake up and then you see where you're at you wish they will happen a dream that it would have been reality. There are days that i feel that. I could just leave this place in be reunited with mariah in. Just tell her. i'm sorry. I wasn't there to protect her and i held her. I in many ways. Thank you for listening to wrongful. Conviction with jason flom. Please support your local innocence. Projects and go to the lincoln are bio to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our production team conner hall. Jeff clybourn and kevin wallace. The music on the show as always is a three time. Oscar nominated composer. J ralph be sure to follow us on instagram at wrongful conviction and on facebook at wrongful conviction podcast wrongful conviction. Jason flom is a production of lava for good podcasts. In association with signal company number one a.

mariah melissa Melissa robert alvarez Sabrina texas mr villalobos ascalon norma jean farley dr farley Dr curry Melissa lucius Jason flom Flom Lucio Yvonne lane David thorne Maggie freeling jason baldwin Sabrina van tassell
10: Live from Alliance

Murder In Alliance

1:27:19 hr | 4 months ago

10: Live from Alliance

"Y'all if you're looking for a true crime podcast with a different point of view the prosecutors podcast is the one for you. I'm not kidding. This is one of my favorite podcasts. Now i'm so lucky to call brett an alice friends each week. They bring their unique perspective as prosecutors to the most famous cold-case case mysteries of all time. And i'm telling you these are perspectives. I have never heard before. This podcast is more than just the story. Alison brett walk. You through the legal problems lurking behind every case they break down the complexities of the criminal justice system with humor and a personal touch and they do it without ever. Losing sight of the pursuit of justice both for the victims and the accused. Murder mayhem disappearances. You name it if it's true. Crime there on the case. Check out the prosecutors. Wherever you listen to podcasts. This is murderer an alliance an active investigation into who killed on lane. I'm maggie freeling. Hey y'all this is the q. And a. episode that. I have advertised the team. And i were live from alliance ohio this week answering your questions and talking about the case we got so many good questions beforehand and during the show so it was hard to answer all of them. But i promise if we didn't addressed in future episodes specifically ones about joe and other persons of interest. We just can't give everything away yet. And a couple of quick notes are internet in our alliance hotel is terrible. So i'm sorry that i personally sound a little robotic. I was having a tough time with that or working with what we have out here. Otherwise it was a great conversation with amazing people. And i hope y'all join us for the next one. Can you hear me. yes we see you too. We did a guy everybody here now. On with jason. Your women's rainy. Yeah it has been thunder storming up and on here in austin texas. I think they're trying to fill up lady bird lake though everybody can have fun. The main meantime you go out there. You won't get struck by lightning thunderstorm. Wow yeah there are josh mccomb. Isn't here people. Hurt him in the podcast. Hello josh case our illegal intern is here. Was freaking amazing. I'm just trying to show people that i knew from the pike. Will i dashed. He earned cool. Yes so we have a lot of people writing really good questions So i'm basically going to be like the moderator and people are very welcome to ask questions in the sidebar. So why are we start with injuries. Themselves i'm sue. I'm david live. I'm his advocate of twenty two years. Little crazy twenty two years due to you've done an amazing a very difficult stuff for twenty two years and we were saying saying the car that we wouldn't be able to do this On the work that you put in beforehand. So thank you for that. And jason nor hugh. Yes i worked with a john danny Would proclaim justice. Make the long story. Short for reader's digest. But you know john and then we all. We haven't history goes way back from john. You know fighting to get free. You know in similar situation. What david davidson right now so Hope carries you along way or was you know that people people get to. We'll get you through it and so we're about naked hong. Yes eighteen eighteen nine. So noah who's gone through twenty partially no not twenty two of its yet it has its told her many Traveling tribulations goatherd. Everybody goes through. It together will play an important day than inking and then we have our amazing. Ti's we can listen to share. I only listen to share the first morning of the first trip that were on the ground at a case. So gotcha yet. But i love sharing. I make no apologies. I'm a metal care. Do judges before all right. So that's all of us. And then. Of course i am maggie Host of the podcast in journalists summer and questions Basically the biggest question that we had in soon knows this is coming. So this is really pointed at sue is Why didn't any of the appeals. Old up yes. There were appeals. Ariza habeas. You've been through the entire process. That's why episode one was called dead in the water You know that's that's what he said. Tonight i shop today. That case dead in the water use everything up so people wanna know sue you know why was george hale deny as a new witness it seems really credible. That seems like something that could very likely you know overturned a conviction it seems like they were just negating everything we brought up. I mean george hale that was huge and they said oh well he wasn't reliable says who i mean. What are you quoting to say that you're just designing his unreliable because it doesn't suit your purposes and who said he was unreliable as a prosecutor. Will i know john leech. The policeman did he said that. On dwayne moments newscast. He says he couldn't remember why but he just remembered that he was unreliable. I found george very reliable. Yeah story never changed. It's been twenty two years. He's still on the same story yet for talking with He's he believes everything works. Said he saw So you know duan's season journalists and thinks that he is reliable so what You know so. He had his directive deal. Yeah he did all. He did the direct appeal and then he did the to the state of ohio in stable hira one-sentence turning him down. They didn't even don't have to do anything. But say no. Which into this usually pretty common. It's not like there's much evidence in the directive. He'll yeah it's gotta be procedural right in as long as a kinda sorta did their job. You know it's hard to appeal anything. They say he didn't call any witnesses while that was just his strategy so as long as as a strategy they get away with it the we found new evidence so we started presenting that a post conviction petition will weigh. Just we did the first one just to get their foot in the door of the time. Didn't shut on swear year to do it. And so we put something in ineffective assistance of counsel and they manifest lately evidence so we put that in to keep the door open for us and then we could appeal. I mean we could add to it amended and since they had no intention to answering ever. We amended at three times. We found george. Joe recanted and own when we found george the lawyer put him in with wrong name. They gave him a new last name. So we had. We had to change that. Yeah so michelle Is a good friends. She does amazing work. She is a prosecutor in long island. New york Where i'm also from. And so she saying the chat Direct appeals only accomplished. what was done at trial. it's not the direct appeal and ineffective assistance of counsel is one of the hardest claims to win. Because basically you are you know given a a right to an attorney. But that doesn't mean you're given rights to a good attorney. I so directly meals are hard but so he went through his habeas as well. Yeah they they. They filed for than they got that and they started being people. They took depositions of the lease officers and they seem to think it was a big chuckle. Fast i mean. They giggled through the every statement they ever gave. And i mean nobody seems to seriously. I heard early on that. They were considering this a throw. These two guys throw away because nobody cared about him. And joe basically has normally plans because made deals night. He has no way to get back afford. Y'all i'm so excited for summer and it seems like it could possibly be a normal summer so anytime i have off from work or make time to take off. I want to be at the beach. I wanna be barbecuing. I wanna be outside on a patio drinking margaritas. I do not want to be spending time at the post office. So with stamps dot com. You can skip trips to the post office and save on postage stamps. Dot com makes it easy for small businesses to mail and ship without ever needing to take a trip to the post office. And even if you're not a small business this is great. I mail a lot of letters and stamps. Dot com makes it easy for me to print. Usps postage on my printer mail and ship anytime anywhere from your computer. Send letter ship packages and pay less a lot less with discounted rates from usps and ups. Stop wasting time and going to the post office who stamps dot com instead. There's no risk and with my promo code. Mia you get a special offer that includes a four week. Trial plus free postage and a digital scale no long term commitments or contracts. Just go to stamps. Dot com click the microphone at the top of the homepage and type. Mia that stamps. Dot com promo code. Mia stamps dot com. Never go to the post office again. So someone Sense in the fact that a trial can even take place on investigation with this. Many procedural mistakes lakme investigation due diligence delivered omissions directly on the interest in it competence. A red flag saliou on our legal system whereas the accountability within the system. And i would jerk this. John danny like looking into this case. Now i mean you talk about address some of that like you know. What have you found in the what you guys have worked on done. And what the detectives back them has done while. I think anybody can look at anytime. You have the chief of police bringing his date to a crime scene. That's that's a big problem We have photographic evidence. We know that detectives were leading bloody footprints at the crime scene So there's a lot of a lot of different things that they did. In my opinion that were at the crime scene just completely inept. potentially corrupt. I don't know but certainly inept and how it goes to trial is really up to the prosecutor. I mean you know if if they want to bring charges. They're going to bring charges and happens all over the country all the time where we have cases brought to trial that are so weak that has so many glaring errors in the investigation as so many different conflicts of interest. And all that stuff. But it's a real flaw in our system. You know the famous thing is. I can indata ham sandwich and we see that to be true lot. So you know we can. I wish that there was a better way to do things in there. Probably is but It's easy to bring somebody to trial and can you speak a little bit about accountability. Because they're so similar to this in your case was so dirty as well You know y'all are working on the case right. Now that you have called the west memphis three two point. Oh that if anyone wants know about that they can listen to you. Can one unjust knots all But at the lot of the same players. Doing the same things i mean. Jason words the accountability drill around. You know In west memphis are the police department. There were under investigation by the fbi When the crime happened the red support eventually big for happened. Fbi reached out and they've leads reached out the cifs in the investigation of because interstate. Forty there is a super major drug. I weigh at least department. Therapy become so used to writing it and keeping money and drugs and vehicles and whatnot themselves and splitting it up. That they didn't want any outside scrutiny. They're like mum. You know we can handle this on her own priebus out and so they didn't running out and so why you have a culture of criminality you know not a credibility and so you have something like what what what was just on the last episode here you know for that. We're talking about the psychic and you had the police officers going there and you had the psychic questioning the southeastern saying. Hey you know what's going on. Why is she police officers. What's going on. Why are all these. Police officers have new sexual relations with each other. Do they have a ni- did they know who's night. That was when her body came up missing. They all look at each other and say that such and such as my you know and so. Where's the accountability the credibility and so it's more like cover up ability knowing so intense and ten. Did they intentionally walk a girlfriend through the crime scene to jeopardize it. And it's a plant you know to make sure that you can't rely on any evidence from it because it's been tainted so whereas the credibility and that and some gotta we gotta watch out or arts there on the ground and no i mean banning in our jonah. Y'all gotta after these because you know here's because has been for like twenty two years enemy number one but i've been chased the graveyard. I've been at my house. Shot at you know to your bag you with the west are other case of an another case ours. West memphis three two point. Oh it just shows you that it happens all over the place. I would love to say that. David's cases unique. In it's not i mean every case is unique in its own way but the corruption of police the Corruption of district attorney's offices. It happens all over the place. And i'd love it if we work ourselves out of a job because it never happened again but i think we're going to be secure for a long time. Unfortunately so appeals question. so this is Not necessarily a question anderson ribas who had the psychic tapes. They big into the defense. Also why david in jail and not the entire alliance p so that basically goes to while community. Psa for the day we should end qualified immunity. Absolutely one hundred percent visit michigan. Right now If anyone in michigan is they're they're doing something that Cops and prosecutors have you'd by like an insurance kinda situation I was just reading that today. Onto music ensues age. If anyone knows about that Is fascinating but that would that would certainly help with these kinds of things There's no consequence and they know it but you know you mentioned the socket tapes and those are so interesting because in all the various cases that we work. This is the first one that we've had audio of of to the lead. Detectives visiting a psychic and not only visiting psychic but naming by name people in their own department that they've chins about as relates to this case so that the socket tape was fascinating when when we first it's unprecedented. I've never because you leave. They chose to leave alliance and they went beyond even though they knew the david. David was suspect so early on. They obviously didn't feel confident. Enough and david being a suspect that what was weeks after david had already been looked at it and retained an attorney that they independently took it upon themselves to travel. I think to the cleveland area. Brian located the psyche in started dropping names of other suspects which meant they knew that they was a strong suspect and they had their doubts therefore they they the investigating detectives in in in their defense. These aren't seasoned homicide investigators. One of them we spoke with it was his only detective. Kirsten last past you. But let's say the samson was his only as ever. Yeah he told us odi worked one case and that was it while wonder why someone wants to know that the psychic cabinet into alliance or the case those michelle. Now that we know we don't know who she is. He was somebody that mugler's wife went to see. I don't know she probably looked up in the ads or something. I would love to see her doubt. Nine question no not out our psychic ability but just what she thought about at visit in those detectives no and anything that may have not have been on the tapes that unfortunately she passed. She died few years ago. So know lino. I another other scientific and we can say. Let's see if we can bring back. That's true yeah not participating in this mixing the graveyard that was that was. Y'all the summer is here. We're all trying to be as healthy as possible. And that's why i am so excited. Care of is a sponsor of murder in alliance care of is high quality vitamins formulated with good for you. Clean ingredients that are backed by science care of makes it easy with a personalized subscription. Delivered to your door. Each month contact free. Seem never have to worry about running out to refill your vitamins care of makes it easy to get into a routine of taking your vitamins your recommendations come in a daily individually wrapped packets that are perfect for getting back into or starting your routine and my favorite part is that they are catered to you. You take care of in-depth online quiz that s you questions about your diet. Lifestyle health concern to help you address your specific wellness goals. 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I just wouldn't of making it totally adds variety to my cooking and the best part they give you pre portioned ingredients so nothing goes to waste and if i get tired of vegetarian meals i can easily change my order on the app within minutes. You can change your delivery day. Food preferences plan size or skip a week whenever you need so just go to hellofresh. Dot com slash. Mia maggie fourteen and use code. M i a maggie. Fourteen for up to fourteen. Free meals plus free shipping. I don't know why you would sit on that offer. Just try it. Hellofresh as america's number one meal kit. Try it out. Hellofresh dot com slash m. I a maggie fourteen and use code. I a maggie fourteen for up to fourteen. Free meals plus free shipping. So someone wants to know Is was there any testimony during the trial from forensic pathologist or medical expert as you. How such small night could once white they cut so deep and i didn't mention this You have branch hervey look at it. Sou- remind me as for you. I guess reminding anyone else who looked at it. But i mean the move was eight inches long four inches deep and the blade on the joe knife with three point five so three point one. Three point one. It was a pocket night so that is almost impossible to do that. I would think. I'm not an expert but that seems kind of unlikely and so i guess the answer. This person's no david steen didn't call any expert out dating colony witnesses. Let alone experts. They called somebody who saw joe by pocketknife but in week they called. David's child support attorney and they recalled. The child support advocate for the alon. She asked to be recalled because she didn't like the way her testimony came across because she got it with native standing and she wanted to be more positive for david wandering about on that Did they run any forensic tests on it after it was found determine if there is any biological retrievable from like the handle or whatnot. N- everything but i don't believe in forensic testing was miniscule. His his voice not not exist. Yeah you know no crime. Scene is perfect. Obviously defense attorneys always attacked the crime scene. They're never going to be perfect. But this this particular crime scene in again there's not a an abundance of homicides committed that this police department in the gated. But they're independent. Experts have classified. This gave it crime scenes eight ever seen our legal entrance. A bit criminalist found no trace evidence on the night at all road so sue a lot of people questions about joe and wasn't there a hotel party You know could co pay for this on his own. So what do you know about you know how have paid for the hotel room. I joe shady. He's every story he tells us different. So i i as much as i tried to support him through the whole thing. I just don't know how because historic he's changing. The truth never changes. So i first story i just i was the trial testimony and then when i read it in new. The crime scene look like when i compared it to the crime scene photos. I realized that what he testified to did not occur so i knew something was wrong so i asked him to call me That was it that you are. You get a problem with his initial confession versus what he testified to or just a specific said he testified to david trial. I had a problem with everything he i already said. And i thought this just doesn't make sense what he's saying weakness sense is i visualize it happening in. They want to say that the crime scene photos. I realized it made no sense. It doesn't match the crime scene photos you can't be sitting next to somebody on the couch and still have blood on all of the back of the couch. It would have to transfer through your and it can't do that so i questions so i asked him the questions. But every time i've asking questions is dancers seems to change. So michelle wants to know sous or any way to corroborate jo's testimony undoing a mention on we haven't brought up yet. There will be episode about zero but an josh Mccomb who you also heard in the show. He's in chatou. And there's like talk. You know presented as joe was super grow. Never worked in his life in every game. Money which is true. Bro with sue at the time didn't need potentially have a job and khuda aid for a hotel room. he was supposed to be working for a landscaper. And doing some odd jobs. And what i understand is the joe as other people for money because he didn't wanna spend zone so he was asking you for money. It's because he wanted to keep his own. Yes so you know if what you know about hotel party i heard there. He told me he had planned to party. He had rented a room. He said it he told Other witnesses i found that someone else was having a party and he was just attending and other people have said he wasn't getting hotel at all. There was never hotel that the receipts were forged. Joe biden for joan. Because i mean he may have signed his name on a matter. No but he's that's that's out of his wheelhouse right so we were brought up another witness yet But this is a really determined to mention so there was some listener. Did have a question about this. Because the lesson or wives on patriotic reading all the pace files so they did notice. There's a guy in the case files in daniel rogers. Yeah and he was walking by the house around twilight on the thirty first of around the time of the murder. would have been after. Jim was seen with her And he saw someone trying to a man walking purposefully trying to get into the house and again come each. Have the door and trying to get the club looking for key or something And again similar to george. I guess didn't think anything of it. And i went to the police. When you know everyone discovers at their neighbor has been murdered So yes there wasn't an interview with this daniel rogers on four twenty six nine thousand nine just another witness seen somebody at the house Other than not sue. I mean danny. John if you come across it i only have this one report. That looks like he was also potentially hypnotize relaxation. Maybe yeah the same thing that they were trying to do to george but other than that. I don't know if there was seems like in the report. He does mention a lineup and he didn't pick anybody out bright so who knows again if he was ever asked again if it was joan that he saw but there was another witness. Who did see somebody trying to get into the house. Allegedly i would think if he picked joe out of the lineup. We'd hear about it same with david. Silence about a lot of these topics are the are the clue i think. So hugh And again that's religious. So glaring is there's no evidence is either accepts. Rosen chris joe at the mall saying he said he was there to kill a girl. I'm just reading michelle. No hit or miss it on a photo array or lineup is brady but should be turned over. Yeah that his wasn't turned over either Right so was any of that corroborated. Eric not sure what that's too. Yeah michelle thing. The biggest issue to her as a prosecutor. None of these lineups thing turnover and we know about the george hale lineup the first one is a tweet oldman's special by hale said. He identified cop and told dwayne. That cop was one of the league detectives that he saw leaving So no one hundred outline wasn't turned over right that things gone. Yeah i mean you have any thoughts on any of these witnesses or lineups thing my experience prosecutors even when they have a son confession go to the most prosecutors when they have a strong case not only will they have these on confession they will bring in every bit of evidence every bit of biological evidence every witness statement everything they can't because they don't want anything possibly get thrown out or discredited by the defense in this case they kept the lot out didn't introduce a lot of the kept the defense in the dark on what on what exactly they had. Anyway i mean the strength to their case basically was a confused homeless broke. Eighteen year olds confession but changed his story. Throughout zoos. Alluded to still gaining. No can't get his story straight and that was what convicted david wright as a so grossly unfair. Because there's nothing time. David to this. Except joe and joe's just lying through his face he can't tell the truth to save his life. Yeah so so. Josh is saying he allegedly made a hundred dollars on a penny. I don't remember that. I know that was like what was rumored. I don't do as remember if that was the. It's written on a hotel receipt. They hand wrote one hundred dollars point a one they said the bill was like fifty seven dollars and seventy six cents or something and he gave them the penny so he could get a quarterback. I wouldn't think to do that. I would do it if it was china. One or something. Give many friends. Joe and josh. You're saying right now. Joe couldn't you that mouth. Which mel definitely believe. I don't think that or that now. They can't thrown down hugging. Yeah i don't think he may have wanted a quarter for the payphone. That's true nice. Nice catch aaron. That is possible. If the you know y'all easy payphones. We discussed that that it may be needed to make a call but at the same time is he really calculating what is total is right even the one in the jacket process putting down that we have a receipt. We don't know that. Joe physically ever checked himself right now. We don't know i. We have the hotel manager testifying as to what the receipt says and the timing on the receipt that is odd on and she said the hotel clock could be ten to fifteen minutes. Minutes offers just seems weird to me. How does that happen on a universal clock on a computer. It's ten to fifteen minutes off on one end of the day in twenty five to thirty minutes off in the on the other end of the day. That's that's absurd so shout ham. Need i think it says cams. I'm guessing tammy alexander gains might. Tammy do assembly faults Questions real quick dewey. Three have a videotape of the hypnosis. Tim or anything here. Lord take your we only have george hale saying this is what happened we have no record of it at all. Okay the videotapes. Nothing they didn't even audiotape most things. Yeah i'm saying that. Seems like something in line what they would tape since they take the site does it. You know just the way. They're going the importance of right jarrett's so back to the hotel for one second if someone's just wants no. Is there really already from everything we've gathered. We have now idea. No we don't know we've never heard from anybody who has done to the party and joe did a friends anyway. So wouldn't now highly doubt it would have been a part of us throwing. He was staying with inox his best friend summer. She wasn't invited to the party right. Yeah so i who knows joe. I mean josh. Can you may be answering the guy i mean. Joe didn't have any friends. Allegedly i mean i know you come around him because david guys by the joe have friends Josh you can answer that someone in the chat. No no joe take them to find the night. What john danny what. Y'all think about the nights color mixed up. The knife is changed. The dimensions of the knife changed the location. Changed the style of the night. Jiang right you know. they're they're quick horrid crime scene. They're quick to discredit immediately. That a knifeless swiped across the bill to white blood off of it but then they're trying speak to witnesses may have information and push them into pointing out different knives that it was similar to like sue said it was. The knife that was initially presented was a a knife of the three point. One inch blade. Which just a think scientifically even the pathologist struggle to find that. There's any plausibility that that knife did the damage to have got yvonne sneck way was caught. Joe did take them to a knife. But we don't rank it allegedly but we don't even know the circumstances around that so that's something that we're is is something that we're trying to chase down track down definitively. Yeah that's definitely one the pants so there's a lot of questions about announce the pants change color from you know from roses initial statement to her trial. Testimony the pants change color The style of the knife change color or changed From one to the other. So there's some there's some issues there that were digging into more than there would have just been saturated in blood. The absolutely i mean. There's a reason we don't post them on the social because they're very graphic and you know we wanna perspective on and But sue has someone her website. And if you want the full case vile every angle of these are your home and living room in seen They are gam adriaan. But yeah i mean the. Us think someone walked out of there. No blood no. No no chance out. I'll tell you guys. Do not think i think maggie mentioned this in the podcast. Our first trip. You're on the ground. Danny's he's my first trip. You're on the grounds back in january and If you've never been to alliance there's one main road that's You know five lanes and just so well lit and it is four point two miles from that hotel to vons house so the idea that somebody had just committed this brutal murder that was very graphic very messy and then walk that four point two miles even at night on this will let rhode walk right by of bars that were there for around the college and nobody's defies all credibility all. I went out at that same night of the year at the same time of night and put my son on the road in the same clothes and i stopped in oncoming traffic and i took his picture and he you would have been able to see it absolutely does photos on your website right. Yeah And josh just said the white nike jacket. That's usually wearing those docket exists. He was photographed wearing it. Two weeks later at a birthday party no way he had more than one. Yeah now yeah. That seems to be something that we understand about. Joe is that you know. He didn't have a lot of nice fresh nike clothes. And all that stuff in idea that he would have had more than one or that one did not have any blood on it. It just makes no sense. We'll see can you talk a little bit about Where potentially got new clothes if it wasn't from david. Am we haven't talked about yet. In the find any are leaning injuried role they were they were summary knots quo's jacket and the pants and said they were both summers. That's what he told he. Yeah he brought her close to go to a party that she wasn't invited to debbie on a seer. Your statement there. And i don't know if you're from alliance or not but you know the people that we talked to you know you're right. It wasn't as built up. But from what they all say it was still extremely well. Lit even back. Dealerships have been there for decades. Yeah yeah i would say now. Probably what eighty percent of the retail business in food business in this town is on state street Interesting part continuation of debbie's point. Is that if this was a an orchestrated. Even halfway halfway thought out Hired hitman kind of cases though is they alleged We had we've had alliance police officers. Inform us there. Were two or three hotels in the vicinity of the mcdonald's that was just at state street right near revives house so to plan this out but the guy the furthest distance hotel at the time to put him on foot after pulls off. This is is tonight. Yeah that was one thing that really jumped out to to us as we really get familiar with the geography or the geography here and as we talk to people you know there was there was a they were really these great planners of doing this murder there was one hotel that he could have just kinda ducked through the park right there at through a little bright up at her house so they're really planning this out. Then why are they getting hotel. It's four four miles away on the busiest road and is sure even today. There's a hotel further out from the l. a. Yeah tonight has it. Several stories high in these other hotels like hotel. Motels the floor. Things you pull up in front of empire in nobody would ever seen him. There's no cameras there. yeah. I can't remember maybe it was the horseshoe go your own. Yeah yeah it's it doesn't make sense in someone. If someone came into the chat and say how can there be no blood on the night for the fans. They found screwed question. I said because did happen that way. I mean it just is now possible. The argument would be that it would have been exposed to weather and stuff like that over the course of a few weeks before they were discovered But i don't think that holds any weight at all. I mean we've seen a lot of crime scenes a lot of evidence that was stood a lot more than that and got something out of it. I just don't believe it happened that way. I hired an expert in paid for the report after court in. He said there he would expect there to be some. He said there's no blood and all on either item. Yeah so we have someone right in. Who says i'm an auto laron doll. Apologists larry ndala guests or go stalin's ear-nose-and-throat they're bugging emt. I seriously doubt such a small knife. Could've sever cardio Arteries straight yet set on one slash hurry. Arteries of a very thick muscular wall and a tracheal is imposed of pretty thick cartilage Man yeah to me. I mean that's why to mean. Like i say is again began like the reason the that they talk about our graphics crunchy news. In my opinion it doesn't have been. I don't know i don't know anyways. Think about that. I mean it's to me. It just looks so personal. The way it's good i was gonna say to after she was dead and we believe drug away from the window and position in the living room floor. A tv was slammed. Ill this with somebody. Really angry most hits. You don't have a whole lot of anger at your. You're there to do a job and leads. The crime scene photos show this. She ended up after her neck. Throat was slashed their drag marks from the window. What maybe ten to fifteen feet into the living room. Mary was tv ending up on top of her body doesn't make sense for a hit. That's why i don't think it was a head. I mean that's why doesn't have the appearances of a hit. It was to be. It gives the appearance of somebody who was very angry at her. Then you're gonna say pretty much sedating administer each other sentences. Often maggie's probably tired because you guys are talking today about interviewing you know you're exhausted after interviews like it just takes so much that with. I know kevin partners in this room exhausting to be that mentally on. So it's really nice for me to not have to do it or this entire podcasts. Thanks is children we. I know michelle area. Like anyone is daily like depositions are just like communicating with having to remember what you said what they said. Follow up on that question. fucking exhausting. Yeah we belong day today drinking wine and eating jesus nineteen crimes wine and a really fancy cheese. Play from the local groceries. Might be coughing. The nose orissa. Someone did say. I do not surveys. Maybe speak to this. I do not understand why they shit happens. If there's no evidence against david why is he still imprisoned. It seems as though there should be some way to turntables on the corrupt officers. Who were so obviously involved their opinion of bang my head in absolute frustration. Every new episode on my heart aches for him all the time. He has lost to his lights to live his life at the fullest. The post conviction. That's the most link. Big part of time it's the most hope was not aren't of any case. Everyone has a right to speedy trial. And you don't wanna think these rescue from cheapie in jail you know for decades before you evergreen have trial but what you want to do. Is you know to conduct a thorough investigation forever arrests in something in on in everything but same time you think of someone authors dangerous and wanted to take them off the streets as soon as possible lady. No like david's case here you know here we are you know on a years. So after the fact you know and we're working on uncover the truth and the case you know. Ask them questions. It should have been asked over twenty years ago and the courts now You know you would think that. They're interested in justice in solving the case but they're not knowing it's all about analogy and their goal is to make sure. The case is not reopen no matter what evidence brought forth and so that's a tremendous battle to be fought knowing and even after you know with with john in any in maggie down there on the ground no boots on the ground and you'll find out the facts pace and investigate investigating ask questions does as part of the battle. He's got an you know. Use that hit in the courts you know and use it as a key and you know open. David was filling that as another battle but so is there and she offers. Hope you know david and you can't give up and you can't give up can't give up for one another and we have protein here with banking and dane in john. You know fighting the find the acts of the case and we're all fighting together so that no no matter how long it takes you know. You wanna keep fighting five. You hope that fighting will be one day as we're in in sometimes jason. Is you know better than anyone. You just want to not get fucking kicked in the teeth every time. You're you're standing up to fight this fight you know and and you're always getting kicked in the fucking teeth by the powers that be you know that. Just don't want to open up their minds and hearts of the to the fact that there is a mistake bait in these cases to great pointing. Because you're what you're saying. There's always a they always have this perceived pressure from the public to solve this case. Right get this case off and put the guy away and it's all based on public safety so you would think that wrongfully convicted or people. That there is a question on their guilt or innocence that they would be the courts would be very receptive to the possibility that a the real killer is still out there affecting public safety but it doesn't matter because a lot of egos are so big that they cannot accept that they could have gotten this wrong because their egos are are such a lot of times. They're not willing to take the chance. That the real killer in adjacent case to you three or free and the public is safer. But nothing's been done to solve that case in. Find who killed the three boys in west memphis or they're not outtake willing to take a chance to say maybe we've got this one wrong with david thorne in joe. Which if if there's slightest chance they did that would mean that. The real killer is still out on the streets just like in daniel. Va since caves. Are tim. howard's cates. You know gotta find who committed the crime and even if we know who committed the crime you know menton state go after them and you know. There's mentality i've encountered you know a lot of us state actors and it's us tally. Is that you know everybody's guilty of something and it doesn't matter if you're convicted of something you didn't do and it doesn't matter that the guilty party got away with back prime because you got away with something and it doesn't matter that you're servants on for something you didn't do and it doesn't matter that the guilty party is free of that charge because they'll get 'em on something else and that's the mentality that runs a mutt. Now that no ruins the benefit the doubt in known presumption venison knowing the pursuit of justice. So i did some of these questions answered. Some of us know amazon. Amicus you guys. Are you know whoever really. But how can we all help. What is the next step. Is there a way that can help right now with the system in general or with this case and other unspecified but Msa with this case. Long about david. I think one thing that's important that we use utilize very effectively and jason's case In daniel's case in el paso and mardi tankless case You know coupla very dear friends Sort of led the charge with mardi all those years ago. Public pressure has an impact. So i think what we can do. What people out there can do is Stay aware and probably the best way to stay aware with. What's going on is this through maggie's various outlets and if we you know we come to a point where we believe there's is really important to make phone calls to the prosecutor's office or whatever then be willing to make those phone calls or write those letters write those emails. They're very dry. But i do have an email last right. Now you can find. I'm gonna put the link my instagram bio tomorrow. Because i have this league up right now but there have grants on email. People flooding the ohio Three populated i wrote it. You're welcome to tj. However you want clear name. I'm gonna suggest chains the title of the email just in case. They started filtering spanned emails. Whatever you know change the title so does though they're filtering but it's going to the prosecutor. The governor The whoever ifop. I quit in ohio or somebody's listened So there is an email campaign right now against my will have it in my bio any like posted it in the group. It wasn't my sweater. You can find it right now But don you may continue. No i mean what we saw. You know what. We've seen several times Says jason's here in his case of particular. We had created this environment that did end up putting a lot of pressure on them that almost made. It's where they were going to face backlash if they didn't you know help work through that case so those things are important. What if you can't find who committed the front will that's gonna make it harder for david destroyed up You know as as sous talked about. We've gone through he's gone through. All the appeals everything. it harder. But that's another time where we will do a full on public relations. Push everything that we can possibly do to put pressure on people to Sit down with us and work with us and figure out a way that we can work through this But it it's it's gonna make it harder to straight up on michelle says in your marcel. The prosecutor in your new york can always bring a post conviction motion. with newly discovered. Evidence is the same ohio it is from what what we've We spoke with the lawyer. Just a few weeks ago. Noggin an idea and up. Yes anytime there's new evidence you can bring it up and you can file on the new gas. Wants to dawson sandy. Wanna go shout out to sue. Finding the real killer is lives. You doesn't sleep at night. Temptresses says he was lucky to dates drought. It's time start. I just needed a you know your your local ohio. Or even if they're not. I mean i think even without the email blasts that's going on time if people could truly be spamming it. Now take those addresses that i've compiled for inches right the prosecutor in italy. Why what's up with this as thirty five pass though to this website. You know you can do those things. and really them to pay attention and occasionally very rarely but occasionally. Does you know all the years that have passed since the crime. There's new of prosecutors that our elected into office and they have different considerations than the prosecutors did twenty twenty one years ago now often. They're just all about protecting the conviction alleged. Jason looted sue the finality of the law. That drives me crazy because the law should be interested in justice and not banality. But you know a lot of it doesn't matter the the new administration's that are in the da's office. They just wanna protect that conviction for finality law and so it doesn't reflect poorly on their predecessors but sometimes when we do have new prosecutors They're willing to work with us. In in at least small ways that are helpful yeah So michelle says support the as you wanna to serve integrity create convictions ever units. This is something. I learnt recently which correct me if i'm wrong. There were only four states conviction. integrity unit s- In the entire country and the newest i believe league was michigan. Which was attempting can. Sue is working with right now. This is very very new very small. Ohio definitely doesn't have a cr you but on there is a new prosecutor and start county milestone is a new prosecutor. He was sworn in january or two thousand twenty one twenty more new so we own approached. India i mean he is on the email allows but young. I don't know anything about me on so maybe cool. Who knows. that's a thing that will definitely be looking into. I don't know. Tell me. Famous kyle stone if anyone wants to do a quick but oh unfortunately days prosecutors to judge now. We did know that we did know that it does those. They would have to recuse themselves or sure. But that's also like to me and to muse rightly so much of west memphis is like the prosecutors now judge and so the rest of the three judges in the county even if they recused themselves are fucking buddies with this other judge soleil. What are the chances of them. I mean it's just it's so sometimes. Small towns creates dirty politics. So you know you just. We don't know the answers as ours relates to stone but sometimes those judges don't necessarily love each other you know they. They they battle with each other in the past sometimes now generally speaking. You're right by. But i'm gonna eternal optimist without a county. That's what we did it. We absolutely i mean you would try that dirty as all hell. I'm michelle is lay These are my words. But i can't believe eighty now judge while a. Yeah i mean. It's like incredible when you know courageous so rose in all things so cheesy on david with the finger gun during court on. that's unprofessional. She is michelle closer. Here's your heart attack. I can't believe it. I don't want to. We need more wells in the world we do prosecute and then i always have right is on. They are lovely prosecutors. I mean you know in the work that we do. They're usually the enemy but there are big ones out there. There are there are. And here's opened. Faust owns a good one. She's the modern prosecutor. Rebecca says So what else do people have other questions. Someone sends envy. La bless this person Actually put their names is jamming holly from cleveland. Y'all are so amazing but you wrote me a novel at. It's the to read what you have written. I know i answered a little bit of yourself. If you want to email me or something or the emmy we can get the rock dancers for long. These really neat nikki questions. So someone brought up blood on the pillowcase. The knife swipe so again if you will do the crime scene photos there is a knife soy on the edge of the couch we clearly and you guys can deserve maybe want but to me it is very clearly it is the kitchen knife that was found down the block. It's an inference as twice. It's on a pillow on a pillow. I don't know that looks more like a kitchen knife than a thursday. I'll not pocket knife. Look yeah and but in trouble. Try to say that. That wasn't with. That was right to say that was not a retrial. Didn't i don't think they thought it was either. The nine yeah. I don't think it was even like they called the pocket knife. The murder weapon so once they did that they use credit that that was a knife. Swipe of fellow right footprint on her back. They stepped on her back between the shoulder blades. That's completely disrespectful. I mean just killed her home. Yes michelle Touch dna something very burying interesting. Michelle says if i'm up all may reading thousand blaming it. Michelle just look at the crime scene. I mean it's it's just absolutely disturbing so on that someone wants no about furby so tricky was turbulent anyone else able to explain the blood dot there and she was attacked new sliding glass door. Yes his report stated that she was standing in front of the sliding glass doors in front of the stationary one in turn slightly to the to the moving one and they came up behind her and slashed her throat and then they took her under her arms. And that's why it looks like she sprayed everywhere because they turned around and just as she was trying to go back into the living room sheet her foot slipped through the blood and made that big swipe on the floor so they assisted her from the place of the murder. The injury to the floor. That's that's that's points. The reminded me that joe in joe's confession alleged confession. He says that he cut her throat. She after he cut her throat which we know she stood from the couch walked to the sliding glass door and then return to ask him. Why did you do this. Yeah should novo courts left a vast anything bleeding out a you know. A police analysts. A crime scene analyst said that seven seconds was estimated until she was dead from that cut night while it is almost decapitated. He if you look at graphic but you can. There are autopsy photos. Chaves decapitated tenuous to the investigators agree attorney's theory. Joe said he was on the couch. Derby says he was at the summit. Whoever was the door. I believe that. Choose at the door. Some josh makes it a point this like it says she died on the couch and the cops even initially said no shoes at roar. Yeah i mean there. There's there's things that. I understand that i'm not an expert on eating on good at some things and and of not as educated on others But based on everything that i know and have seen with this case over the years it appears to me that it's pretty clear that she was at the door And the whole mechanics of how he initially said that he had cut her throat sitting on the couch. Make absolutely no sense to me whatsoever But you know that is not my area of expertise. But i'll tell you just looks from from some experience of that. She was killed at the door. she was clearly. I mean there's there's a fairly drag mark for the blood unfortunately and we already the cromer. No no i mean again. I'm not that's not my area of expertise but this looks like satellite. Yes stop this. There's a pretty big if you're crawling. You're having your hand at word. France that i saw that timmy. Follow up so that completely decided. So how can we. Joe in anything major aspect that. The forensics discredits his accounting aaron response. Joe admits he was lying. Joe joe is you know joe's He's he's a bit frustrating at times because he's given so many times is given so i mean he just he just had you know i don't. I don't know what to make of that yet. I've got thoughts that i'm not going to talk about here right now. But it's it's very frustrating. The number of accounts. Ah joe has given it somewhere. Episodes outweight brutus. Y'all where we're just making it to alliance in episode nine all were. We got a lot more to do. Is there anything in all the statements that remained constant at the mall. Just that he was at the mall. He this is interesting judo atronomer. You're chiming amendments y'all today when he uses confession me never once mentions rose and chris know or does he mentioned sandbag but he does not mention rosencrantz. Interesting interesting part to stood out to me. John in the beginning was that when the recording of joe's confession starts he's basically told he's free to leave at any time however later in that could later in that fashion statement. The cops acknowledged that he had already confessed to committing a murder which if a guy confesses to admitting murder he should have never been told. You're free to leave at any top. Which makes it was each stage confession right. I mean it was orchestrated. 'cause you can't say you're freely anytime are you making this statement at your own freedom right and then they come back and say you know already need already told him. He committed the killing prior to the recording. So air mexican point. Aaron is our case expert case file expert He testified is too high. That night's remember talk to them so that that's how they prosecuted dealt with it at trucks road. It was too high but then they bring him back the next day knowing that there was some errors and how that went down and basically started over keith to dates of irritate on the fourteenth. That thank you that. Another one on the fifteenth sue would know better than i but yeah. That's cracking on the fifteenth. It opens with him sobbing. This tammy's compare see she says. Can we compare joe to charles in the ryan focusing case interesting. We were just talking about sharks today historic change multiple times over the years. Etowah kathleen zellner went to see him the first time versus other people. Rose are sketchy Yep people in this chatter. Not liking rosen. Chris allot comedy. Show where your questions arose in Any what's been the podcast. We've we've reached out to rose to try and speak with earn. Our plan is to speak with chris too. But that's that's why we're here right. We're still we're still working chris. Rose performance the comment. Christopher were informants look for reward. Money deals that surinder and josh says one hundred percent. Yep in chris all their hating rosa chris. She sat in my car with me and she told me she thought joe is guilty because he shakes like he's on heavy drugs. I said he's got a policy that he's had since he was born. And she's like oh i didn't know that yes. We guys It's in the records Shall wants to know that they just injects themselves. Maybe insert michelle. You have out heroin. Did they just insert themselves into the investigation. I'm going to be. I think will assure this what was interesting. We found was that this happened march. Thirty one april one. Right that she's discovered. On april first rose facilitated through her mother. I believe reports the incident early july. Which would have been the entire months of april may three my dining to a hundred days after the vet she decides. She's gonna come clean. Report this to the police that they run into this guy. The mall said he was going to kill someone. Who's there to do a job. And then they officers go and speak with her and then they obviously go and speak with. Chris am not sure what happened. But then chris is suddenly arrested in the park the day after he speaks with the police officers on a drug deal that they knowledge that the reason they apprehended him was because he had his hand in his pocket which looks suspicious and look drug related. These weren't patrol officers. That were that arresting these were. What would you call them. I mean they were not necessarily detectives but they were not guy ranking officers when you ranking officers of this department so within two days maybe even one day of speaking with both rows and chris. Chris is now under arrest and remained incarcerated until two days after the convictions of david and then he was released on time served. Ragnar is that correct. Says my information. Correct yeah it is described in an are. You just described a somebody. Who's making a deal to get himself out of trouble snitch. We ain't now snitch. I ain't no snitch. That's what he told me niners mitch. Michelle does not be officers. That will be making low level drug busts. Now bother to park in the middle of the afternoon. 'cause your hands in your pocket right i said did you have drugs in your pocket. You will. yeah so the cops were right. But it's just the timing of his arrest for being a little suspect. He was just in their office. The bank before of nine eight it. Probably gator ride to the park at fanny. Says they were surveilling him. Okay time served question marks was. What was the charge and bows cooperates. Protect your boyfriend. Think the chargers cocaine crimes crooked cocaine someone wants to know a knife in a sheath knife in a sheath knife unsheath at early says she saw knife in cheat. I mean we have the audio for the that she's describing i've and she says Based on on the conversation she's obviously physically describing the length of the knife in this audio recording. But she doesn't say how in one of the officer says about eight. So chris. Christie's original description was the folding knife right. Chris saw the full errands. Aaron is replying. Yes rose saw the sheath. Chris did not so they have different. Account roy fucking knife yeah. We're a little punchdrunk. Run do remember this right roses. Recollection is that david a man and hired him to do a job. Chris's recollection was different. David name was never. There was never not a man had hired him to do job. In in chris's recollection in his statement. Was that joe. Joe's girlfriend had sent him to do the job. Yeah there there's there's a lot of conflicts with Yes he says l. Only have so many questions so you all eight inch folding reignite of three point one inch folding knife different and that's my hang up at is out is a big freaking difference Aaron says they've never closing rosa. Chris getting off work. There were timesheets. Yeah they were working at a telemarketing. The mall that night works for an hour and a half that day and they go yeah So we're seeing we've been. We've been here for an hour seventeen minutes and about knows. We are fucking exhausted. So laura wants noses random but why baseball gloves. I think it was gloves so that night. I don't know. I really don't. I don't think we have answers to that unless you you have any blood on right wearing know if he retrieves gloves received a look at right through the if we believe what they presented the case to be through the knife in the gutter across the street walked across the highway. Throw the gloves in the mcdonald's it trek four and a half down to the comfort in in a white jumpsuit. With a white jacket and white shoes without drawing any attention. I don't care if there was one business state street. Still the main street of this out. It's obviously not as developed. I mean what's more developed than it was back then but still the main thoroughfare through this eddie. We've been here enough to now. They're looking at it right now. See somebody covering up. E blood marlins their decades ago car lots are very well led and have cameras says i wanted cheap growth research. Eve's right it's pretty awesome. Erin it really is decisive. Muggy in this room is started. He wiping my neck gums dripping. He didn't davis's didn't he walked three miles covered in blood. Yes but now. That's a story. That's the story was four point two mile or point two miles three point five. I measured three point nine when i walked in. Got to three point. Five drive around even in your walking a mile covered in blood. Like would you go from our call at four miles. Let's call it four. Did you drive around. the lake. went up asaki in the back are on. Yeah it's a full four banana town. Motel is in the way. Yeah i mean. I you know it's been a minute but i thought we get to. Suffice actually can lead up to one funny thing. that happens talk about this where we addressable. I'm jason knows about this So what had happened was if you will you get this beautiful glamorous job of this woman that is you know to hear susan using this photo. A family members will assume like sue data. Just come up with this photo album. Her ass in two thousand like this was given to sue by somebody in the family and you'll Because we originally had it as the photo for the podcast and sharon weekly a loveliest listener only listener viewer reached out and said hey. That's not yvonne lane that is model summer l. tees and so day one of the launch of this insane like twisty turvy lake in all cases bonkers. And now we go. What immediately call soon like sue. You told me this was yvonne. What is happening. she's like yvonne. David tony it's glenn her shot so i encourage everyone right. Now we will she was a playboy centerfold. Absolutely drop dead gorgeous. This photo that everybody for twenty two years his thinking is yvonne is nyvanh even her sister's host on their facebook on her anniversary missing my beautiful sister yvonne. It is model somewhere else sees do. Just the mystery of yvonne meli monitor family somehow thought it was. I don't know weird or was sitting on brandon's bedside. Gabe it's on the sons bids idea. I mean like weird. This case is so bonkers when we first you contacted us and i found the facebook page. I sit john. There's a photo of her. She is a knock out voice centerfold of the nineties and then there's other pictures in which she just looks a little less made up. You're like well. I guess that's her. She beautiful gorgeous. It's not it's not her and we had to vary emergency photo quickly but now making. Hey maybe we could get out playboy model summer. I'll tease advocate for you know david's bronco conviction. We'll see it's kind of funny on. I think it's possible. This photo originated from yvonne. Giving it to somebody right now. I believe he's gonna swap meets in. You know have a pass out there. Headshots some things i they i think they've found that future in his bedroom in he gotten the swap meet and putting his bedroom in after he was in prison. They founded in assumed be giovanni because it looks a lot like are taking glamour shots. So that's not. None of us obviously met her personal use. Who you know now. I never met her photos. We have a could be herbal on makeup Glamour side glamour. Shots make people look completely different so we thought well it's a heck of a glamour shot. Yeah i was wondering what brought that up maggie. If she hadn't bound the photo someone had mentioned her. You look like such and such. How do you look like such an sledding associated got outdoors up and asking it out good. Do even remember me about part. I've got a picture of brad pitt. Not tell everybody and and so far nobody they believe in texas just here. Someone's maybe it was her advertising photo at errands that yeah it's i mean could be it just adds to the mystery of who was yvonne lane as that's true and do just to bring it down for a second. I know you're gonna. I know von was and that is a big mystery as we've been on the ground who has von lane and and it does always draw me back to. We've got this injustice of wrongful conviction but also we've got a. We've got to figure this for you. Know i mean she people in her corner based on what we've learned So you know we. We've got a we've got to work for both. She deserves justice to dasher. That's all they're all here on adhere by. I mean she's got five kids. They deserve their mom So yeah definitely tames his great point. Everyone's excited about at that point. John thank you. Because i think sometimes we do we really i you know i know i do i. Sometimes i'm really focusing on. You know the person that is currently leaving through the hell and kind of sometimes site of the person that lost their life so will conclude it for this evening. Folks did wonderful known as great to be a part of it in a job for being their boots on the ground doing the hard work and then y'all support and from bacteria at the ponderosa a team formed. I'll see you on thursday jason. We're here because you know you you gotta presented with you. John decided you know you're going to help other people so it's not going here. That's why this podcast. is you know. Thank god going. National people naturally are very dated story million downloads. So are people are hearing us. People know people are listening town listening people writing. We wanna hell. We've there will be more ways to help soon. Hopefully were working on some stuff But do the emails right now. Get those emails out. If you have the time individually email each of them pointedly asked them. Do you know about this case. What is sucking going on. And i want to say the david. I appreciate all of you roll. You're doing we appreciate you very much. Also your inspiration. So really i mean i you know i don't even that episode about you did it justice but we're not here that we're for you. David was called the wife. I said it was about me. He goes yeah. I put that together about the honestly of the cases we were. We run into so much we brainstorm so much we collectively go through an analyze tons of documents audio photos everything. It is a blessing to be able to hit. Stop stop moment and one of us gets you on the phone immediately and her half the answer for us because we in many cases will pull over and spend two hours trying to find what it is. We're looking for and usually within minutes. We have that answer usually until is forty thirty times senate again then i go on and on and on you're going i got it. I got enough enough but yeah everyone is saying that. Seuss really amazing aaron. You know who has again seen indexed redback report file. Great job seaso-. Sue has the most arresting is and i've added you know what i think is okay to be publicly available against the patriot. Who want to see. It is there to amazing And michelle says. I've learned a lot from you all listening to the podcast that i can use my own work. It's prosecutors show. I'll just want to next time on the new york. I'd want to sit down. Have dinner with you showers the legend that you better okay. Deal y'all while. thank you. Everybody who has joined really appreciate it. Jason sube janney. John thank you for sitting with me until ten thirty at night. When i know we are all incredibly renault. Vel smacking you. Everybody does a somatic supporting david. That you've reporting errands. Texas roadhouse you know as well but thank you everybody. Thanks you'll or french french coming up next time on murder in alliance. I know you have no idea who i am but i had so interesting things that we learned about give odds murder through the years though that someone as close as you you had a million run through your head wondering who could have done this to her. Who's there who could possibly know something officer that lived near here in one of these house. Close gonna get into all that. I mean like i said this is the end of this conversation. I know you've got family law enforcement right. Mr jenkins's a captain there. I gotta go. You guys have great days. Reference police shut it. People came by one time. Threatened flipped my throat. I've met the killer. And i know where he is and i suspect he's still killing and yes he's a cop y'all if you like this show please consider joining the unjust and unsolved patron. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please lease rate. 'em view the more reviews the more attention and the more likely we're gonna get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by me maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is engineering. Assistant for more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murderer. An alliance on twitter and instagram at murderer underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder and alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com.

george hale joe david Michelle john danny george Joe daniel rogers Alison brett maggie freeling josh mccomb david davidson maggie Host Ariza habeas jason josh ohio John danny David
6: The Wife

Murder In Alliance

41:18 min | 5 months ago

6: The Wife

"Hey all before we get started as i mentioned please please. Rate and review murder and alliance. A lot of people don't understand how important that is for podcasters but the more reviews and ratings the more people who will find the podcast and the more likely we will get tips and leads to help find out who killed of on and now. Here's a trailer from a couple of my best friends. Before we get to the show on february ninth two thousand four twenty one year old umass amherst student. More amari disappeared in the white mountains of new hampshire in one of the most perplexing mysteries of our time for years we have covered. Moore's case in the tireless on line community that surrounds it in great detail. We have since expanded our mission with this series raising awareness and shining a light on the stories of other missing persons. We now sit on the board of directors of the nonprofit organization private investigations for the missing which was founded by bruce maitland. Bruce's daughter. brannagh maitland. Went missing from montgomery vermont on march nineteenth of two thousand and four. This is missing. Follow us on social media at missing. Csm search for missing your favourite pot catcher previously on murder in alliance was the time her she was there friday couch to to begin with then she in gladstone to in detectives did find a print on the handle. I did not do this. And although you thought that. The evidence proved that i know my heart and saw not do this and i wouldn't wish this on anyone. This is murder and alliance an active investigation into who killed a on lane. I'm maggie freeling david. Thorne has now been incarcerated for twenty two years almost half of his life after being convicted of the one thousand nine hundred nine murder of his ex-girlfriend of on lane in his twenties. David is now forty eight years old. I mean he he even today. Do you sometimes feel like this isn't real because this is a life with inside of a life because this is this is only existing. It's not really living. He figures his best hands to get a prison is to help find out who really killed a von which is tough to do from behind bars but he does have allies on the outside who support him in different ways. For example david stays in touch with his son. He had with avant von brandon told me believe in his innocence. What i what is it that made you believe in his innocence to me from what i understand of the case. Studies just didn't make sense. And i just feel also that he really didn't do it. He had no reason today. Brendan says they have as much of a relationship as they can. Have you gone to visit him in prison before. Yup it's surprising the little weird. Does it make you feel any kind of way to see your dad in prison. It's awkward. it's doesn't feel right. I asked david what he thinks about what happened to his son. Who called me about that. And the other authors persecuted for it i mean. Tell me about just talk to you about that. You know the that'll that's a lot. Yeah it's been. It's been hard on him. It's it's it's weird going through it because you know he's lost twice as much. How do you process that. I'd say it definitely affected me processing it still. it's awkward. just try and live life today. Yeah people ever bring it up to you. I mean. I know it's a really small town i mean there's anyone like oh your mom was murdered and your dad did it. Some people say because they've been around so long but no one ever brings it up. Was it weird thing in school. Yeah like kids would talk about it. They would wonder why didn't have parents and stuff and you'd be like looked out weird because of it today. Brandon is twenty four years old and he works a butcher and he says he loves his job is out like a career path. You want to do like do you want to own a butcher shop or something. That's one plans that. I have in life because i had a lot of jobs since i was eighteen. But whenever i Worked at little small montag butcher shop. I really loved it. And in hard or anything and it pays vaults good skill to have so once. They went out of business. I just hopped around from job. John found other boots. We've been at it for about two and a half years now but david being imprisoned for life without parole his dreams are much less. Aspirational gets a lot of people. Don't realize when you they don't really all you know. I can't take half of the programs that are even offered due your time and then half that i am before i can't take until five years before that they gave me life without. I'm not even. I can't even sign up for ninety percent of the stuff that they have here. The thinking is why should we educate you and give you a better life when you're never going to get out. Many prisons are like this where lifers can't sign up for school. David says he'd love to learn business so he can have his own car business when he is out but he can't. David has figured out other ways to educate himself and the guys he's with he's the president of the presents cultural awareness program where he and the guys go to the library. Find interesting information and come back. Report it to the group and they have fundraisers and donate the money to nonprofits so he spends his time working going to the gym playing a lot of handball ball. And trying to figure out who killed a von. And this truly could be the rest of david's life. Because as i mentioned david doesn't have a lawyer anymore and he ran out of money and all of his first appeals and he's had a difficult time finding someone pro bono to take his case and that's been a battle in itself because nobody wants to do anything without money. You know russian. That i've learned the hard way outta sight outta mind but he hasn't lost all hope and that's because he's had sue on his side. Davis dog caja. You'd be here. Sue is david longtime advocate and knows more about the case than anyone. I feel pretty confident saying that. She has sent e every document interview. Transcript audio recording. You name it that. She has available in this case including her own reports. So how is he. David's dog did he have him in prison prison. Kerr way to be part of it because these kind of lifestyle real central so he would just kind of buddy after the guys who had dodged for the dog program so that he can hang out with the dog today. Sue is more than david's advocate. She's also his wife. They got married in two thousand eight and she goes by sue glass thorn now but before she got involved in david's case she was a family friend remember. She worked at the post office and was friends with david grandparent's and she couldn't believe what had happened to david guy. I knew that came into the post office that true hanaway and granddaughter time and you just license guy ever. I thought no. This can't be in her gut. She just believed in his innocence. She didn't know his supposed accomplice. Joe wilkes the young friend who told police. David had hired him to kill yvonne for three hundred dollars so nathan. I can't understand. there's got to be more. And when she started doing her own digging she did find more. Everyone of us gets breakouts especially wearing masks all the time. I have to tell you my chin is a nightmare and yes. I hate to admit. I have put toothpaste on my pimples and it never really worked by nord actually does work prescription treatments. And that's why i am so excited. That apostrophe is a sponsor of murder in alliance apostrophe is prescription skin-care offers science backed oral and topical medications that are clinically proven to help clear acne. I love that you can now get prescription skin care through the internet. And you don't have to have insurance. You simply go online and you fill out apostrophes online quiz about your skin. Goals medical history. You take a few cell fees and your dermatologist will create a customize treatment plan for you apostrophe can treat acne also help you with other skincare goals like redness wrinkles and dark spots and we have a special deal for our audience. You can save fifteen dollars off on your first visit with a board certified dermatologist at apostrophe dot com slash m. I a when you use our code. M i a and this is only available to our listeners. Just go to apostrophe. That's a p. o. s. t. r. o. p. h. e. dot com slash m. i a. and click begin visit than user our code. Mia to sign up and get fifteen dollars off dermatology visit so when you first came on the case. What was the first things that you did. I said okay. Well i need to talk to joe. So i wrote joe a letter but i didn't put a return address because i thought this is a killer. I don't know where i live. And so i didn't get a response. I finally wrote him in. Just put it on the table. I said this is. This is who i am in no these people. I'd like to know your story in ignored me. He'd been screwed her screwed over by so many people by that time he wasn't About play the game again. And then i got the documents at that point and i read them. I wrote him again. And i said i don't think you did this. Because your statement is lining up. I don't it doesn't make sense to me. So i gave him my phone number and he called me in. That was on new year's eve. Two thousand the tape is pretty hard to hear. The entire conversation is about half hour long and on the phone gets cut off. And i do give sewer pass for two thousand era recording as soon as soo- answers the phone joe pretty much got to the point. You're saying that you're changing your statement that you did not do this. David did not. He had nothing to do with it. Just a few months. After he testified at trial joe had recanted his confession. He said that he and david absolutely had nothing to do with vons murder. So the obvious question. Why would you say something you didn't do. He's hard to hear what he said is. Police told joe that david was filing for immunity. Remember the cops lied to joe and told him david was in the other room giving him up so i see so you said what they wanted you to say to get back at him kinda crowded but they had nothing on you. If you didn't do it did they were so to a nato dental another for me to tell them the same say dead lawyers courts where paul right but but the court kind of blew that off. So i didn't know if they were just guessing or if they really knew that to be true if you remember some of this came out in court that the cops were telling joe what to say and joe gave more details to sue basically. They told him help you. If you tell us what happened you can go. Home more aggressively. He said that they put him in a room and they chained him to the wall by his arm. They spit on him and they told him that they wanted him to confess. Because david was in the next room implicating him and they were going to put them in the electric chair and so forth. Joe said his lawyers even told him that was in his best interest to take a plea to avoid the death penalty considering statement. David was making against him next door. This phone call with sue was actually the first time joe was hearing that david in fact did not make any statements to police nor implicate him in the murder and giving this even more credibility. This wasn't the first time. Joe was telling someone he didn't kill yvonne. Actually his minister and youth leader wrote in an affidavit that when she first went to visit him after his arraignment he was crying and told her he did not do it. How did this. But you don't believe it's david. David could never have done something like this. Goodie i know he did. He loved that boy. After speaking with joe sue she had just open a can of worms and she was determined to get to the bottom of it. Went back to the evidence presented at trial. Even though joe said he didn't kill a vaughn. There was always the possibility that he did it. But not because david put him up to it especially because joe still put himself at the scene and his first interview with sue so it from the day from the moment you walked in that door. What is your story then you walked into. Why did you go there you just to hear you walk there from the hotel okay. Was she's supposed to come to the hotel by h joe still told sue that he walked from the hotel to go. See a von. But this time it was to invite her to a hotel party which he said is the real reason. He was at the hotel and when he walked into her house she was dead. And then what did you think when you it laying there. He didn't think you mean our side the prison so joe put himself at the scene but he said he didn't do it and that is possible. Remember david's defense attorneys didn't call an expert to rebut states evidence. I discovered after trial that they had contacted somebody and not used him and he had examined joe's pants and joe's knife quote unquote and he said that there was no blood evidence on them and he would expect to find blood evidence even if they'd been in the elements for a period of time. He said there is no evidence at all of any blood on either of these items. No blood evidence whatsoever on the pants or knife that was allegedly used in this incredibly brutal deep. Virtually decapitating wound. That would have been important for jury to hear. At what point did you get brent. Turvy on to examine the crime scene and make his own opinion. E came on for the post convictions. Bread turvy a nationally. No criminal forensics expert picked apart what he calls a botched case. Turvy said joe could not have cut a neck on the couch for one. Where joe would have been sitting was covered in blood where there's where he supposedly is sitting while he does this. There's blood splatter all over the skirted the couch so there's unless the blood transferred through his entire body. There is no way anybody was sitting in that This is what turvy told channel. Five news he believed happened and how the blood got on the couch. He said that the heavy blood spurts on the sliding glass doors suggested von was standing at the doors facing the puppies outside when her throat was slit from behind. Turvy says the killer struck while the victim was standing here by the sliding glass door slicing from behind she. begins to spur blood pumping blood violently out of her out of her neck. The killer supported the victim on the way down. Then hold her across the floor. And there's dragon smear marks in the blood. She's being assisted from the sliding glass story to the couch and television based on the photos. It appears there were also drag marks on the floor like the killer may have dragged von after slicing her throat to move the body and again it was an incredibly bloody crime scene and joe had no blood on him said that joe's statement did not match the evidence. Now i'm not saying the count is the right one but if someone like him had testified it certainly could have left reasonable. Doubt that joe and david didn't do this and then there's the motive prosecutors said david didn't want to pay child support while already told you. David had money from his dad when he died but sue relieve. Broke this down for me. David inherited money from his dad's life insurance policy which was deposited into an investment account. And by the time of avante murder he'd had accumulated a hundred and thirty five thousand dollars on top of this. David said he was also making good money about fourteen dollars. An hour at dale's khuda shop. Which in one thousand nine hundred nine was pretty good money around twenty two dollars today and since he worked on cars he said he also went to swap meets and sold expensive parts for cash. One part could pay a month of child support. Which again was three hundred and fifty one dollars a month. Eighteen years of child support with a check. That's no exaggeration if the request was for three hundred and fifty one dollars a month. Just do the math and that equals around seventy six thousand dollars for eighteen years. David had almost double that granted that he had the money to pay doesn't actually mean that he was happy to pay it. We hear about well to do parents skipping out on child support all the time but david said he genuinely didn't mind. He wanted to support son and be the kind of father. He wished he'd had an even if you believe he's lying and he did mind paying the monthly bill. It just doesn't really make sense to me that he'd hire a young kid to kill oven just to avoid paying child support. That seems really extreme and also reckless again. It's possible joe. Did commit the crime without david though if david didn't hire him to do it for three hundred dollars. Don't really have a motive. Joe had only met a couple of times and it's unclear why he would kill her in such a violent way however there were other people who'd been in vons life who arguably had way better motive to kill her then david or joe whether he was paid three hundred dollars or not. Y'all i just had the best night's sleep with my ember. Wave temperature is personal. Everyone's ideas of comfortable is unique sleeping in a bed with my partner who is constantly freezing and i am constantly hot. I just throw on my number wave bracelet. Click the button and it sends cooling sensations through my wrist. Or if you're somebody who's always cold like my partner. 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Dot com click on the microphone top of the homepage and type in on just that stamps. Dot com promo code on just stamps dot com. Never go to the post office again when sue. I started on the case. It was twenty two years ago. She was young and passionate and put in a ton of like work literally. Just knocking on doors. Because i was green decided not to do is just wanted to talk to everybody and get some information. One of the first people she spoke with was linda mclaughlin. Eric cameron's mother remember. Eric says he's the father of at least three von's children you talk to linda at length about you know maybe her involvement yeah. I suspected everybody. Linda was taking care of vinnie. Von special needs son actually. She basically raised any from the time he was born. Yvonne gave her anyone from the hospital. Is why understand. Vinnie needs special care and so she kept him for the first couple of years. I think in the in fact i think she kept in until he was four because she took took him back just before the murder. Which made me go Right because linda wanted him right. There reportedly have been tension between von and linda too because of on getting social security money to help raise a son with disabilities that she wasn't the one taking care of him. Linda zone daughter. Tracy told me that her mom and yvonne did not get along. I also heard that avante didn't really get along with your mom. Is that true. It's true they are hard person. I didn't get along with my mother. So sue talk to linda and recorded the conversation because i know she knows something that she may not know she knows or whatever she knows so much about this situation value von. She was around during the time of the murder and she had to be considered a suspect. Everybody in family did so. I just i figured if she talked enough maybe she let something slip or i finally ruler out. But she didn't slip and sue asked her straight up. That make you just want to. Would you tell me. Oh yeah legit. You know power. Tokyo in jail. Well i mean. I would help you if you totally it now get. I ever think of anything like that now. Kicking her there work. I wanted to punch her out but as far as drilling that every wants from my life. I i love vinnie. Probably as much as i still a woman alptuna sock if you make me to do this at all rather tell me about what a really row. Never take him out on her. Jeremy in your opinion sudan asked. Linda boyfriend at the time. Jeremy may have killed yvonne for linda knowing how upset linda was over vinnie. Jack would for you because you're you're the baby member of on vinnie back just days before her murder. I have to say it was about him because he was a kid. I don't think so. I don't have the they have to do something like that. I like we've been around jerk. Only just will. He could be violent weather record. It is worth noting that germany had a record including domestic assault off any him. Now something else to point out. Remember four vons. Kids were home with her when she was killed most were in the bedroom but vinnie was loose in the house when vinnie was asked after the murder if he saw anyone hurt his mother the four year old replied that he saw a josh. Jimmy or jeremy. Cloche mommy now. He didn't say all three of these names. It was unclear. Exactly what name he said these were just the names. It sounded like josh jimmy or jeremy. Your house and i asked him something about if he was at work that night and he said i asked why you talk to him and he said the considered him at and i just want to point out that if the police did consider jeremy a suspect there is no record of any conversation with him. I also want to point out. Then when i spoke to preston. One of vaughan's kids. He had heard from an earlier episode he to point something out to me and found his. She dressed somebody autumn dressed. He had already been put to bed that night in his diaper and he's slept in a crib that he couldn't climb out of alone. He was out of his crib and fully dressed. When police arrived lived close. Were what do you think about that. I mean well not. Many people could just grab so. Don't come up as a total stranger so to preston. It seemed like the person who murdered his mom with someone who knew vinnie was able to hold him dress him and took care of him. Someone like his grandmother or her boyfriend or maybe vons father. Here's linda again. And i i remember eric. enough settle. Vaughn's dad allegedly sexually abused her four years. She tries through He would have heard one. Sister said that too. that was. That was another reason. Fred put up. The camera was to catching the act after you walk or this is a little complicated but bear with me. Fred said that von toll him that her father sherman was sexually abusive to her as she thought he was. Also abusing the boys in a sworn affidavit. Fred says he set up a video camera on top of the fridge. Four weeks before her murder so von could try to catch sherman. You can see the camera and crime scene photos along with a couple of vhs tapes but what is on those tapes we will never know after the investigation. The tapes disappeared for it. Said he asked the police for them and they told him that they knew nothing about it. Sherman also placed himself at vaughan's house the day of the murder and we don't have anyone giving him an alibi that evening. So did police ever look it sherman. They wrote in their notes that they knew about him quote making a von uncomfortable and masturbating in front of her and the kids. But despite this there's no formal interview with him if the police did look into him and it is possible that sherman took the potentially incriminating vhs tapes when he went into the house the day of the murder after police allowed him in to gather close for the boys like he said. Epa allegations were true. Could he have killed her so she didn't expose him. of course. that's very difficult to answer. And we might not in terms of motive though it at least sounds a bit more convincing than three hundred dollars and although fred and yvonne became close over the years. Linda said it wasn't always like that her hatred for what she could there. When sue talked to fred out that he was actually supposed to be at avante that night. Start loader he i will tell you that and then he stand i would just take my bike so he's totally best stories about it but it tastes for similar was dropping berg constantly pretty bad. Yeah yeah. I was confused by that. To which ultimately made me think that he he does Unfortunately fred is now dead but there were other. People worthy of police scrutiny. Who hung around on that are still alive. And there's a guy used to hang out with slide around the corner from her house. Being jim and i interviewed jim he was interested. Jim lived directly behind von as sue mentioned. Yvonne would often hang out with jim. Jim's never been formally accused in this case saw only going to use his first name for now i went to interview him just as a neighbor a witness and but when i when we finally did a foia that we got all the police handwritten notes and things like that. I thought right here remember. There was a neighbor across the street. Who said she saw a von on the native march. Thirty first the night of almost murdered. The neighbor said yvonne was outside around five thirty pm. Crushing soda cans talking to a forty year. Old white man. Five seven in a plaid shirt with curly graying hair turned out. It was jim. And we know this. Because it's documented in case file that. Jim himself told officers. He talked to von around that time in her driveway. Just as the neighbor described my neighbor standing at her front door at five thirty at a time of death is seven. She's got a bunch of cans. Pop cans dumped on the ground on the sidewalk right outside her door. Mashing with their feet in the neighbor sauber doing it. She never finished smashing. They were still laying there when they found her body wouldn't go finish that but he was standing outside your front door with her and she told them in a handwritten note that it was Was there to see the puppies because he might wanna poppy. Jim told officers he went to a vons to see. The puppies amongst dog had birthed. The puppies were on the deck visible to anyone who could see the house. And i thought oh i never even you know and then i started putting the jimmy stuff together remember then. He said he a josh. Jimmy or jeremy. Push mommy from what we know. Jimmy was the last person to see evonne alive. That was about five thirty. Pm the coroner said avant was likely dead around seven pm just ninety minutes later. Thirty at seven in that hour and a half. He had the the puppies conversation. You don't walk into the okay. Their puppies and then there's something else striking about jim. David told me that a von had complained about him before. She said that. Jim would spy in her house with benach killers leader. He told this to sue at times and he was in the boys room with her. And she said that s o v and he said what's the matter and he said looking in my windows again. Wow yeah he got the impression. It was jim jim. He told officers that night march thirty first. He worked from ten pm to six. Am this would have given him plenty of time to commit the crime and get to work by ten. So let's recap. Jim placed himself at vaughan's house at five thirty. Pm the night of the murder then. He's at work at ten pm when police asked what he did in between those hours. He said he went on a bike. Ride something that's just impossible to verify but it looks like police stopped following up on jim. The last person to see von alive pretty soon after the murder he was not called to testify. And there's no formal interview with him in the case file. All there is is one officers. Third person mentioned of what jim told police. The day her body was discovered that he was there around five thirty pm to see the puppies and then a second neighbor told police. He saw a guy leaving vaughn's house before she was discovered that morning. This was a bombshell. He gave us police statement. Well before david trial and yet that report was never given to. David's defense team miss here. What in the prosecution turn this over on what is going on here. What's up with that and why. It wasn't further investigated. So makes you feel like there's more to the story and we might know why coming up next time on murder alliance. This man was in a house with a dead body and was either cleaning up for the killer or was the killer guy came out with trash bag. That's all just glance. Y that report wasn't provided to the defense. What's up with that. Did you find somebody recommends. I did point out somebody. He'll says detectives told him later. The picture he pointed out was that of an alliance police officer. That is the one key part of this case at just never sat right with me like the fact that it was never turned over to. The defense is shocking. Y'all if you like this show please consider joining the unjust and unsolved patron. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please lease rate and review the more reviews the more attention. And the more likely we're gonna get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by me maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murder alliance on twitter and instagram at murder. Underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion. Gerke murder and alliance is production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com

david joe David yvonne vinnie Rate and review murder and all bruce maitland brannagh maitland maggie freeling david von brandon little small montag butcher sh linda sue glass david grandparent david guy hanaway Joe wilkes
9: The PIs

Murder In Alliance

37:01 min | 4 months ago

9: The PIs

"Before we get to the show. I am so excited to tell you about the website on covered. Uncovered is building a digital cold case platform to combine data technology and the wisdom of the crowd. Consider this more than two hundred thousand. Unsolved cases have gone cold since nineteen eighty and murder clearance rates. Continue to drop with equity for by poc lgbtq plus and other underserved victims not prioritize in the media or the justice system. Together we can do better go to uncover dot com to access resources like their citizen detective guide and interact with cases they're currently visualizing they're bringing case details together in a way. That's never been done before. I've been on the website. I use it. I love it if you believe families deserve answers. Victims deserve a voice. and no one should be a statistic. Uncovered is looking for people like you to head to uncover dot com to help out in victim's advocacy previously on murder alliance. Kid why is she know. Semitic you never asked about that and wondered about. This is possibly a three search through sabre king was hot mass anger and rage. Very people scare me. He scared me supposedly. She told the youngest child she he you know in terms of the police force my god. I had eight or nine names of officers who were potential sexual partners. Destroy guy was putting up to it so if he just caught he can blackmail cops given what we know about. Your von is i. I'm pretty sure didn't want a lot of that stuff flying now this is murderer and alliance an active investigation into who killed of lane. I'm maggie freeling in october. After the short episode i did on david came out. A woman reached out via the email on david's website quote. I'm very interested in helping david. And i'd like to donate. I think what happened. Here is a travesty. If someone would like to contact me and talk a bit about what needs to be done going forward that would be great quote. The woman said she didn't want to offer a small amount that quote got david nowhere instead. She offered twenty five thousand dollars to help david. Whenever a team was assembled money that would cover the investigative expenses like travel time and testing. If it came to that this was at the point in my reporting that i knew there was so much. That could be uncovered. There were so many leads to follow an ungodly amount. So when the money was offered i knew what had to happen and who to go to. What do you do for fun jason. Oh man our board member. Jeanne just told me this. The other day at the office she goes she goes. You need a hobby. Jason 'cause all i do is work. This is charles. Jason ball twin. A lot of people know me through the west. Three case. And i know that senate word but it's kinda work love to I teamed up with anna baskets of the san antonio four and she has a ranch down in san antonio and she's got a great group of friends in She her wife a denise and a friend of hers wife Coupon right so they had these trapper keepers a coupons and so they all these great deals on things like toilet paper and just i mean just normal stuff but they gathered all up put it in their garage and put it in packages so man another one of their crew when their friends would drive out austin and have it loaded up in her suv and pass it out to the homeless. I thought you were all day. You want to get into on an interesting hobby in one thousand nine hundred four jason along with two friends damien echols and jesse miskelly were convicted of murdering three little boys in west memphis arkansas. They were convicted of murdering three boy scouts. Hog tied and left in a ditch. But jesse jason and damien all proclaimed their innocence kidnapped but they just fixing bouts played arkansas. And you know spent eighteen years in prison for something. I didn't do and And which this leads directly to how proclaim justice was formed by my co founder. John wesley hardin proclaim justice is a nonprofit organization helping to the wrongfully convicted formed by jason and john. As you heard mentioned in episode. One in october. I flew down to austin to meet with them. Look at a few cases they were working on and ask them to take david's case. I knew they were the right people for it to start. I wanted to know how you found. It proclaimed this what it is. How you both matt origin story take her. You gotta anti life john. I heard about jason damian and jesse back when the crime happened. So when you're from arkansas. Which i am in alabama their rage a little bit older jason couple years older and of course year about this case. And it's all over. The state was a kid then. Life for three murders. He did not commit most people our age. Just kinda took off and live. My life were throughout the nineties and brought it back to my attention. I think it was an article in the state newspaper. There in arkansas. And i kinda started wandering about it and by that time the documentary the first documentary of the made the w dot org went sided started and that just kind of took me down this rabbit. Hole of these guys are innocent and So i gave them from or when when the state was working. So hard to keep aiming injustice in prison that in china murder damian. Everybody who had seen the documentaries and you were saying. Hey there's something wrong with the case you know. The state should look at the case and open the case backup. Arkansas officials would would just say no. Hey those people who are saying that about the case from new york from california or from new zealand. You know born sir. Outsiders they don't know this case like we do. And so they kept putting out loud there to the arkansans and so john hart who's an arc and when he was like no looked at this case. I believe that the kids are innocent. Got railroaded at the time. John was a political and public affairs consultant in arkansas. But through his west memphis three he and jason formed a solid friendship. John was one of jason's biggest advocates and he found other arkansans to help him. They started a organization in arkansas. Arkansas take action to combat. That lie state was proffering and so and that enabled them to do a lot of work on on behalf of our case in on the ground. There in arkansas and open people in arkansas is to what was happening in two thousand eleven. After eighteen years in prison jesse jason and damien were released on an alford plea. Today the west memphis three walked free. The plea allowed them to profess their innocence. But the state can still keep their conviction despite being free damian jesse and jason are still convicted murderers. I'm a huge proponent of gaining control of your mental health. Anyway that's possible in especially going to therapy if there's something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals. Better help is here to help. Better help not a crisis line. It is not self help is professional counseling done securely on line you take their quiz which is thorough and asks all kinds of questions about what you need and who you want to see as a and there's a broad range of expertise available catered to you. I was matched perfectly with my better help therapist and i know you will be to better help is committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches so they also make it free and easy to change counselors if needed better. Help is more affordable than traditional off line. Counseling and financial aid is available so many people have been using better health that they're recruiting additional counselors. All fifty states. I love better help. But you don't have to take my word for it. This podcast is giving murder alliance listeners. Ten percent off their first month at better help dot com slash maggie. Just go online and take the free quiz and see who they match you with. then you can subscribe. That's better help. H. e. l. P. dot com slash maggie for ten percent. Off when jason jesse and damian got out of prison even though they were still convicted murderers they had a ton of support not only from john and arkansans and other people around the country but from famous musicians. Like metallica music was featured an hbo documentary about the case. Paradise lost and other famous musicians. Like natalie means from the dixie chicks henry rollins from black flag and eddie vedder pearl jam. And when jason got out Eddie better than whisked me away to live up in in his castle and in seattle. Jason was now far from west memphis. Arkansas the town and state. That wrongly convicted him. Jesse and damian of being satanic child murderers shortly. After arriving in seattle. John went up to visit john and was like. Hey the best things. I've experienced my life was married and my wife and my son born and seeing you guys while free go home and i want to continue doing that or other innocent people in prison now would like to take journey with you and i was like hey you know. I've promised the guys i left behind. I wouldn't forget them. And this is a way for me to keep that promise. So they started proclaimed justice and after getting everything. Squared away to be a nonprofit. They got right to work in twenty thirteen i. They started with the people. They knew imprison. Who were innocent and immediately looked at death row damian. You're on death row in arkansas for crime. You didn't commit. Where were you the only innocent person on death row and said no. Tim tim our and so john was like we need a free him. I'm like yes. We need a free and they did on december fourteenth 2017 after twenty years in prison and fifteen on death row proclaimed justice helped free. Tim howard released last wednesday after twenty years behind bars. Most of that time on death row and short a year later they also secured the freedom of daniel vegas from el paso texas this so i wanted to know what it takes for them to take a case. No we're very selective in our cases we wanna take everybody's eggs it's not humanly possible and so we had the you know. We have a very limited resources. We had to make sure those resources are successful and do the most we can with them. If we can spend one dollars twenty times we will you know so life count. The team itself is pretty small in terms of investigators. It's john who along with being. A co founder is also a private investigator and danny wexler a lifelong private investigator. They are incredibly thorough. John told me that they have to be beyond certain that the person they are working for a innocent before the officially take a case in fact there had been a few cases. They told me about that. They started working on feeling good and then during their investigation. They discovered the person's guilt so they take their time to make sure they have it right where we're working on several cases all the time in the way our case working as we may work on a case for a few years before we even officially take a case like david's could take years to properly investigate but he thought it was worth it to ask them to take it and they agreed to look at the files preliminarily so i started like i usually do. You know started really with a trial transcripts after no-one hold story and i'm not too far along those but ardy bunch of questions. If you remember from episode one don sent me a recording of him and danny looking at the files and talking about their gut reactions. Just based on initial readings of the transcript but a lot time on that. And i guess one question is how do you pronounce the one prosecutors name bomb oil or or i don't know i don't have audio so we don't know how they revert to. Yeah we're Bomb bama the what's his first name. We'll just call him. That not gonna work here anymore works anyway. They started with the key evidence. You know right off the bat couple of things that raise my eyebrows. Are the knife in the pants. How to joe lead them to the circumstances and joe did lead them there then. That's a big fucking deal but we don't know the circumstances so just kind of on its face you sitting there thinking okay plausible but fucking three hundred dollars to murder a woman in cold blood. The question. how much sense this makes it. I'm onto the strong impression. The joseph was the fourth friend of david. Thorne that the cops had gone to. If you remember. I spoke with one of those friends. Josh mccomb who said the police tried to get him a few david's other friends to confess before they found a full blown declaration that they went after three friends. I mean it's in record. There were three other associates or friends of david's. Did they. approach. I yeah and tried to coerce or pushed them into testifying against dave. So do you think that that they like very quickly zeroed in on david and then start his okay. The other thing off the bat was in. I'll look forward to this. Rose more girl is sounds like that's how they broke the case. According to them with even knowing joe was involved remember rose and her boyfriend. Chris were the first people to bring the cops. Attention to joe rose told the police that they were at the mall and they bumped into joe and he showed them the knife. He says that he was over an alliance to kill a woman. And so that's what led them to joe according to the state so she's kind of a big. How did a lot about that. You know what let's just say. Joe did this. Yeah because there are things that make you say well pants. The knife had familiarity. Why he staying at a frigging hotel in town that night. Yeah lahser documented a receipt to confirm that. Yeah and was joe in the hotel just going to a party like he later said after he recanted or was he actually there to kill von like the state claims. The guys waffled on his statements. Yeah yeah yeah so if you if we acknowledged that he's been dishonest it. He is the entire reason. David thornton sitting in jail right now. Well the reason authorities in jarrow now. So you're now outages fucking liar. Yeah yeah yeah. there's nothing else. Offer recording excuse. My language doesn't matter man. This is just us talking how we call and what about the other suspects you know there was. I know that the allegations are out there. That even some in the police force were taken advantage of yvonne services. If that's in fact what was happening. You know some kind of eager to see if there's any evidence like real evidence to show that or at least strong enough allegations that could be investigated after looking at the files. They decided there was enough for them. To want do boots on the ground work in ohio and two weeks later we left to figure out. Is david innocent. And if so who did kill a von lane. Y'all hellofresh is back. And i'm so excited that they are sponsoring murder in alliance and he loved this podcast. Then checkout hellofresh. If you're like me and don't have time to cook. Hellofresh has quick and easy meals. Fifteen to twenty minute dinners breakfast on the go and more easy options for your busy lifestyle. Hellofresh gives you mouth-watering seasonal recipes delivered right to your door skip trip to the grocery store again. Saving lots of time and count on hellofresh to make home cooking. Easy and affordable. That's why america's number one meal kit. I truly hate wasting food. And i loved that hellofresh portions everything and right now. I am on a health kick. So i'm doing the vegetarian hellofresh and i love it. It just saves me time on thinking about recipes buying the ingredients. I just go online. Select which recipes. I want and it gets delivered right to my door if you want. This convenience and health in your food go to hellofresh dot com slash unjust fourteen and use code unjust fourteen up to fourteen free meals. Plus free shipping. That is an incredible offer. If you want to support murdering alliance checkout health rush again go to hellofresh dot com slash unjust fourteen and use code under fourteen for up to fourteen. Free meals. Plus free shipping. It's the summertime. And i don't want to be wearing heavy. Conceal her on pimples and blemishes on my face. It's just not practical laws. When i'm at the beach. I get weird tan lines and washes off in the water hiding imperfections with cover up just doesn't work for me but you know what does work prescription treatments. And that's why i am so excited. That apostrophe is a sponsor of murder in alliance. When i was a kid i had horrible acne and luckily my parents had insurance to get me to a dermatologist. And clear it up but you know what a lot of us these days can't afford insurance and thus we can't go to a dermatologist. But now you just simply fill out apostrophes online quiz about your skin. Goals and medical history snap a few cell fees and your dermatologist will create your customized treatment. Plan they don't only treat acne can help you and other. Skincare goals reducing redness wrinkles and even and dark spots. It is so nice to know that i had a real dermatologist. Out apostrophe and that my plan was tailored to me. Everything was super quick. And i got my medication. Just a week later. Totally unreal thirteen-year-old. 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Jo's testimony was the main and only evidence against david. It was his statement that david hired him to kill a von that convicted david. And the best evidence against joe rose more and chris campbell just as a reminder a week before joseph rest a tip from a woman who worked in an apartment complex alliance stated that one of her tenants had information in the avant lane murder. Helen walter a resident at the apartment. It said that her daughter had the information rose more. The police spoke with rose on july twelfth. Two days before. Joe was picked up over three months after the murder twenty. Three old rose told officers that she and her boyfriend. Chris campbell were in the food court at the carnation mall when they bumped into joe wilkes. That's where he allegedly told them he was an alliance to do a job. He was hired to kill a woman for me. She's she's the first person on record that mentions joe. That's the significance of her to me. She's not but isn't she. The one that said he was going to commit a that. She testified that he said to them that he was there to commit a murder. And this i was paying him. Rose initially told police. Joe was in a white outfit white pants with some dark but by trial she put him in the black pants that were found in the woods. She also initially told police. That joe's knife was an eight inch knife in a sheath by trial. She changed her story to the folding knife. Joe allegedly bought and was found in the sewer drain near aunt's house. The three point one inch blade and rose also said that joe allegedly wrote his phone number on a business card for chris to contact him in the future. Now remember. this was also presented at to prove that. Joe was there with rose and chris but sue actually met with rose and confronted her about the encounter and this card is credible. When i had no reason the whole i wrote his name and number down or he wrote it down. I took redland according to sue when sue confronting her with a copy of that. This card found number was pager number. She says he didn't write this. Joe right this you did ensues minded. Least rose acknowledged that she did read that. So did sue misunderstand or did rose makeup. That joe wrote this card. Was she lying for the prosecution about the encounter with joe if her story changed. Why and i'll be honest. The handwriting does not look like joe's a shaky twitchy semi illiterate kid and we wanted to get to the bottom of it morning. How you as rarely looking for rose more humid here. Okay we are. we're investigators. We work for an innocence project. Word choose involved in the case twenty years ago but yeah there's a dentist well be back this morning. Okay yeah would you mind your phone number. Your yeah let's do that. You think she'd mind talking to us. You might nonprofits are your husband. Yeah we just We we know that he's sort of just push into the case you know we're we're just trying to piece it all together. Yeah it's cold here. We're from austin texas out our we'll text turner and when she's available today and visit with a little bit. We're here okay. Okay very good after. John texted the number. Her husband gave us. We waited stick around alliance for a little bit longer to see rose text back. I don't want to once. We out of allies we moving on the rest of the day. We had a ton of other people to track down. But we didn't want to miss rose to kill a little bit of time to give rose top to reply. I really believe outside her house. Gotta wait somewhere. I was just thinking that it's eight thirty most in offices don't open till eight if she had two kids there. Yeah i figure she'll be there a little bit of maybe. At least an hour for she's available could take a run at chris. Campbell and come back over here. He's in canton. Yeah so we drove to canton about a half hour away now again. Chris was rose's boyfriend at the time. And chris's testimony was relatively consistent with his statement to the police particularly that it took him a minute to recognize joe because he was an all new clothes. Which for joe. A kid who is usually house lewis was unusual but his statement contradicted rose. Chris also said that joe told them he was in town to do a job to kill a girl remember. Rose said that. Joe said some guy paid him to do it but chris said joe told them that he was killing her for his as joe's girlfriend because joe's girlfriend didn't like the girl it's unclear who his girlfriend was at the time. So this is different from rose's statement and we knocked on a few doors looking for chris. No luck seems like he moves around a lot as many people we have tried to track down. And then we finally found someone below. Hi good morning chris campbell. Does he live here. Know he don't live here anymore. Okay you don't have okay. You don't do them like no where he would live. Currently now he Left me and went with another girl and oh so you okay. Okay now. I want to explain something before we go any further. You'll notice in all of the interviews that we do in ohio. It's not me conducting them as i normally would. It's danielle john. And there's a good reason for this because the sole purpose of this investigation and this podcast is to find the truth which could hopefully lead back to court. We have to take precautions. If i'm part of the interviews that could be seen as witness tampering. Because i'm not a license investigator like danny. I'm just a journalist. So although it's incredibly unusual and uncomfortable for me to not do the interviews. I don't want to mess anything up. So i stay back and let john and danny handle it. How long. how long has he been gone a few weeks or so been broke up with them letting them stay here. Yeah yeah i mean we we still fucking around. And and then he's got a girlfriend so now he's with her. Yeah he's doing all right with that. Oh yes to better off you know i. I broke up with him anyway because he's Chris acts tells john. And danny he's with a new girl. Now do you know who she is or where we market finding. I know her name's melissa and that's about it. And then you know here in canton Not was he driving these days. Eight he is driving and driving something the girls whose whatever whatever melissa has or whatever whoever chris would be harder to find than we thought he's transient hopping from girlfriend to girlfriend and we missed him at this house by two weeks and chris like rose is important because again. Chris put joe at the mall saying he was about to kill a woman on the very night. A woman was killed. This corroborating testimony was he to the conviction. It's of course possible. Chris was telling the truth though. That still wouldn't implicate david thorne but it's also possible. Chris wasn't time the truth. I because of a few reasons. Manhood almost got fight. When i was it they were to top guy. I he do that. I was pretty much racist. That's joe wilkes talking to sue in their first phone call. Remember suu called joe in prison. And this was the call where he recanted. Chris's black and joe was by his own account racist so the two didn't get along. Joe was also expelled because of that fight. I mentioned with chris so maybe that meant. There was potential motivation for chris to lie. And if there was motive for chris there could be motive for rose who was his girlfriend at the time. Remember rose told police. Chris told her not to say anything. Maybe that's true but it's the kind of thing we'd like to ask ourselves especially because police records say the couple ultimately broke up because of quote domestic violence problems. Maybe rose was scared of him may be scared enough to say whatever he wanted her to. Regardless sue is convinced. Chris would tell us the truth twenty two years later. She said he told her he made it all up. Although he wouldn't sign an affidavit so as we set out to find another address for chris. John got a text back from rose. John again asked if we could come by after the dentist and she responded quote. No i'm not interested in talking. I gave my testimony in court many years ago. Nothing has changed. How can we take another. I taught me. I'll tell her completely understand We just you know. Let's just play it all making playoff that. There's some new. Some new information came up pertaining. Joe's stay at the hotel in that. We haven't even been able to validate confirmed that he truly did even stay in that hotel. That i'm just gonna say we're here from texas. Tom totally understand. Your point of view is help us get this double. John texted back and to this date has not gotten the reply so for now rose and chris were a bust but we were just getting started. There were plenty of people. We needed to investigate. Including many of the people detectives samson and muck clo- mentioned to the psychic that they never talked to next time on murder in alliance we are hosting a live q. And a. monday. June twenty eighth at nine pm eastern. Everyone is welcome. And if you can't join mail your questions to unjust an unsolved g. Dot com and we will be playing the live audio for our episode that meek details and linked to the event all be on our social media pages and website. We will be back with our investigation july. A y'all if you like this show please consider joining the unjust and unsolved patriot on it shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please lease rate. Emmer view the more reviews the more attention and the more likely. We're going to get tips and leads and the right ear will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by need with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is engineering assistant for more information and resources to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murderer. An alliance on twitter and instagram at murder underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com

david arkansas jason joe jesse jason west memphis damian john John maggie freeling Jason ball joe rose Arkansas damien echols jesse miskelly rose John wesley hardin matt origin jason damian
8: The Psychic

Murder In Alliance

33:21 min | 4 months ago

8: The Psychic

"Hey y'all before we get started. I want to tell you about the philosophy of crime with james runner. James is one of my good friends. A fantastic journalist and this podcast is like none other. It tackles the biggest questions about crime. Why is true crime. So popular is reasonable doubt resemble. Why do we still have the death penalty and looks to classical philosophy for answers. Thank you know what items razor is all about or you certain. The world is dangerous. Place think again runners research into the corners of crime will cause you to rethink everything. You thought you knew about justice. All three seasons of the philosophy of crime with james renner are now available on all major podcast platforms previously on murder in alliance. This man was in a house where they dead body and was either cleaning up or the killer or was the killer. A guy gave out with the trash bag. That's all see why that report wasn't provided to the defense. What's up with that. Did you find somebody recommends. I did point out somebody hale says detectives told him later. The picture he pointed out was that of an alliance police officer. That is the one key part of this case. It just never sat right with the fact that it was never turned over to. The defense is shocking. This is murder. An alliance an active investigation into who killed a on lane. I'm maggie freeling a about a month. After the murder of a von lane felines. Police were stuck. They said that the people of interest that they had lawyered up from the context of the conversation. It seems like they're talking about david. And his girlfriend amy so they felt stuck and they did something controversial of the things that we became aware of in the definition. We did it. Police back in january A june caves that turned out the the Discussion between you and also and then an unknown female who believed to be thank. You recall Yes this is. Detective samson in a two thousand eight deposition with david's post conviction attorneys. The attorney is questioning him about two audio tapes. That were discovered nearly ten years after the murder and had previously not been handed over to david's defense. The to tapes are of detective samson and macklowe speaking to a supposed- psychic as you guys decide to go markle warmer door. And i said i with them so since idea yes and he felt like i think he was being pressured from his wife and his wife was in the right right. What do you mean when you say played into that. She was into the psychic reading. This and that. And that's where he was getting pressured from you should get a sidekick so i have. I don't know so mike So bills he wanted to go or may phone call or something really now. I know this may seem odd but it actually happens more often than you think reaching out for help from sakic's is something law enforcement disease. Consider when they feel stuck. It's not as though police rush out to arrest or even interrogate someone based on a psychic reading. Usually it's meant to just spark some inspiration with an outside quirky point of view. I've seen this many times. However what i have not seen is law enforcement officers going to a psychic and implicating members of their own department in a homicide about a month after vons murder. Detective samson and muko went to cleveland to see the psychic rapper humidity. I know hardens. Muna lost. During the i i just want to apologize for the poor audio quality. I had to copy twenty two your old cassette tapes and they did not hold up. Well none of this had been digitized in fact besides myself and the post conviction attorneys. This was probably the first time anyone was hearing this. It also sounds like there are birds in the psychics house. So besides the birds the poor quality this session sounds pretty much like you expected right at first anyway what someone might call woo stuff but this psychic session does not continue like that at all in fact it truly seems like these psychic. Is the detective asking all kinds of questions. About a bon. The crime scene and some of those questions elicited shocking answers for instance. This one line of questioning brought out a ton of personal information about a von. She didn't she did. She's a welfare mom to which the psychic followed up later but something said she was supposedly seeing. I mentioned in the ad anyway so why rich getting in a tip macaroni. The other day she's supposed to be in your well edinburgh by the guy. By the name of kami drugs it's kinsley was giving was supplying her with some kind of drug. We didn't find any light cocaine or crack cocaine and that will be defined a little bit of marijuana quick. I just wanna say that. I am censoring tommy's last name at least for now and i'm going to do that with some of the other full names of non law enforcement people because i don't wanna throw anybody under the bus. I'm not trying to imply that any of these people are the real killer of von lane. But i do think it is fair to say they should have at least been investigated anyway. Tommy sako was never interviewed that we know of. There's no record of him anywhere. And he's mentioned dozens of times in the recording. Ah someone von was interacting with to get drugs yours. Muck low in his deposition is mcelhinney was after police department. Oh he provided you information. Shortly before the view about the k. he must of. He must have said that you know. He must've gave verbal. Kip that Tom was providing her with drugs. This tip coming from a fellow officer should have made it pretty credible to them. At least they should have followed up on it. The even say quote. He's kind of like a psycho about tommy. And tommy even had an extensive violent record including assault menacing and domestic violence. So why didn't they look into him. And this line of questioning by the psychic leads to even more shocking information and names that were never looked into that we know of but this is a lot of marijuana. You just ask them roll nervous was you know. He's using a cell phone shuttleworth. Cool coming toxin von lanes aides from nothing about the just like you know pacing like twirl circle. I really take that will isn't firefly gotten all of our local bars. He's he's only twenty four twenty five in the gentleman that owns bar over there that we'd get Let position mike kelly. She handed her to dance at kelly. Thank you thank you psychic. Who seems to be doing more investigating than the detectives themselves now. The suspect pool is even larger. Von was allegedly an exotic dancer when exactly is unknown because again there's no record of this and the police investigative file so the psychic asked again she. You're only eighty from out who she pitch shoes. Very promiscuous that dental. Just now we find out not only is she an exotic dancer but also a potential sex worker yet. There is no record of any investigation into that part of her life at all. Not once in any documents so the question is who was soliciting of on for sex. While p- the psychic finds that out to roger street right itchy lake possibly seen aged three thorough. Search through eleven in saber supposedly. She told glavas mother that the youngest child may be this. Least trent safe while direct threat. A y'all if you like murder alliance and watch keep the show going then. Please support our sponsors with our codes so they know that we sent you and one of my favourite sponsors is anna. The wease anna louisa. That's eight an a. L. u. s. a. is carbon neutral sustainable jewelry. I recently purchased the cea earrings. And i love them. They are cute dainty and less and one of the best parts is that it is affordable. Their prices are fair with jewelry. Starting at thirty nine dollars if you want to support this podcast than support anna luisa. That's an a. L. usa and check out their jewelry. Our listeners get ten percent off absolutely recommend anna louisa. They're a great brand making beautiful sustainable jewelry. Go checkout louisa dot com slash alliance and use code alliance again. that's a dot com slash alliance code alliance. Rick is an alliance cop that lived in seib bring a multiple sources have said he may be the father of von's youngest child trenton. Married cop who supposedly was soliciting von for sex. She took video policeman to watch state there for weeks. She's riddick says i don't know anything about i've never i know i didn't Then they bring up another cop named rick. He's kind of a flirt. He likes trying. I like a lot of conflicts. Yes everybody's supposedly when we've asked him denied it at first but he said yeah we talked to her and she said she didn't wanna see me because the psychic then asks for another cop and they bring up quinton artists. Who if you remember was harassing of on the cops will the psychic that artists even tried to solicit of on for sex. Find out more about what he knew. I don't think he would go. Have killed knows more about her background. And you guys. I think that you think reserve small potatoes bigger than what you've been rallies be chain. Weekdays potatoes big ten. She got josh. She had an awful lot of and see my kids but she wants was all right. They all came to the door amid allergy medicine. Cats are is doing the police force. Will you. don't athens. May laura something of the i. don't i. I know that was tough to hear but the gist is that the psychic is so incredulous that von had so much contact with multiple lines police officers. She said something doesn't sound right here and she did not let it go. I wanna know why she needs to many twenty. I want to know what's the connection that somebody like. Why would guys that are married with kids. Be picking her up plus the connection. Why did she not. I am too wise. You know so many apps you never asked about wondered about his by you just nothing somewhere to go because you've got some sort of the around his triple when they question you is this girl who was nothing. No so many police officers. Why would she do that. Why because she screwed him out a why did she much introduced to these. Please sir question now please office now we will. Of course we know they didn't at this point. I was so overwhelmed with what i was hearing from. Detective muck low and samson about their colleagues involved in illegal activities that i decided to call an expert in terms of the police force. My god i had more than eight or nine names of officers. Who potential partners recognize this voice. It's dwayne poelman local tv anchor and investigative reporter who you've heard clips from and got journalist beth karas involved in david's case dwayne investigated david's case for years. Speaking to key players including david joe eric. He was a hot mess. Anger and rage disjointed He was heaped literally. Very people scare me. He scared me really the witness detail and police detectives like john. Leech one of the first things that he told me in the middle of the conversation. He knew i was looking at him on his activities. And he said you know the Psyching cleveland even identified us as the guy i've like is this projection. What is going on air in doing also found that what muklewicz samson retelling the psychic about officers involved with a vaughn was pretty cheap widely known not speculation. The police were the officers. Were involved in various activities criminal activity. It's probably based on the. You know either sexually or end the drug thing about remember earlier in the tapes muck low and samson told her they found marijuana in avante house while there's no record of any marijuana evidence from avant home so either that wasn't true or someone pocketed that marijuana and if you remember from last episode the alliance. Police were stealing drugs and money from the evidence room. My guess would be. Someone stole these drugs to but why while maybe to sell or maybe it was to cover up some kind of connection between alliance police and drug dealers like tommy. If you believe the police were involved. Well maybe they didn't actually kill of on but they covered it up to save their own asses. And dwayne thinks this is possible to my suspicion was always that there were so many illegal and troubling connections between police and the criminal element that it almost felt like was cleaned. It up kinda thing. No matter he did it looks. Clean this up so none of us get drawn in. How would they have known you know like how would they have known before. The call came in If if you've gone was prostituting ourselves. There may have been a schedule that she was keeping with amber and it may have been an officer. This totals right right right but You know they may have come and stumbled on. It makes total sense to me. The crime scene photos show bleach and gloves on the counter. Like someone was cleaning up drugs. Detective cyber found disappeared. Maybe the cover up wasn't for the drugs. Maybe it was to cover up that half of the force with sleeping with her. In fact muko and samson actually speculate about this because this fish drug guy was putting her up to it so if he gets caught he can he can blackmail the cops type for protection came on the heels of corruption and my only thought is that given what we know about it. Von is you know i. I'm pretty sure people didn't want a lot of that stuff flying out. Well yeah particularly at the officers. Yeah right maybe that's why they didn't look into the kelly's bar lead or tommy. The detectives new any investigation into that side of her life. Drugs or sex could lead back to them. I found alliance to be a really difficult and troubling place to try to get to the truth on any subject. I cannot get to the truth. i can't get to anything and that. Actually it was a pointer to me over. The years became a really clear. Thing is old more camp because the police controlled the narrative and they were dealing with predominantly disturbed bandaged and impoverished drug-addicted individuals. So you know that kind of thing was just a swirl of smearing vests. y'all better help is a sponsor of murder in alliance. And i am so thrilled that they are still on board because better help something that i use weekly. It is not a crisis line. It is not self help. It is professional counseling done securely and easily online my favorite part about better help. Which if you've heard this podcast you've heard me say a million times. You are not confined by your location or insurance insurance that our help is affordable and you can get therapists world wide. You just take their quiz. They match you with somebody specifically for your needs and it is that easy. I cannot tell you how many times i've been looking for professional help. And i am limited to one or two people in the entire city of new york. Better help has changed. That and i couldn't be happier. Better help wants you to start living a happier life today. Visit their website. Take the quiz and get started murder alliance listeners. Get ten percent off your first month at better. Help dot com slash maggie. That's better help. Ag l. p. dot com slash maggie. Everything i do for. My cats is rooted in love for example buying gorgeous into furniture and then accepting that my furniture will never be klopp. Roof love is fine. A king size bed and then being confined to one corner because all three of the cats must sleep spread out and love is also keeping tabs on my cats health because nothing is more important than their health and wellbeing. And that's why. I use pretty litter. Pretty litter is the best litter for your cat. And i m not joking. It changes colors to help detect early signs of potential illness including urinary tract infections and kidney issues. Cats are notorious for hiding illnesses. So this way. I can keep tabs and be alerted when there's an issue right away. Litter cleanup is easier. It's dust free and my favorite part is how light. The litter is lugging pounds of litter of new york. City apartment. Stairs sucks pretty. Litters delivered right to my door and it is so late and i never have to worry about storing bulky containers. Love is putting your cats health. I with pretty litter. So do what. I did and make the switch to day by visiting pretty litter dot com and use promo code. Mia for twenty percent off your first order. That's pretty litter dot com promo code. Mia for twenty percent off seriously. I'm obsessed i've got friends obsessed. You will love pretty litter so go to pretty litter dot com promo code m. i won't case is so troubling because any number of people could have been a suspect in this case everyone in this town seems to have some kind of secret or interest in this victim whether it be drugs sex or both. so i'd i don't know i mean look who's the suspect everybody. So why'd you land on these two. That's the question. Why land on. David and joe avenues for possibilities are endless on who it could have been. What if it's because david was the furthest away from the drug and sexiest Nation to him with lead back to the police in any way one hundred percent that david thorne is innocent. No it's because i don't have enough information to say one thing or the other but what i do know is with absolute percent guarantee he did not get any due consideration or fair treatment by the system and quite frankly was identified early focused on and then railroaded into persia. That's what i know. There were so many good suspects. Even outside of the police. Muklewicz samson brought up a vons data sherman. The guy had set up cameras to catch abusing her kids. We've heard stories about dad. dad user. Their dad was coming over there and take showers on the couch drinking where there was never a formal interview with sherman. Her father who was allegedly abusing her. The even mentioned eric possibly hiring a guy he went to prison with. Who had just gotten out of prison before vons murder. They also brought up. Jeremy linda's boyfriend a few times. We don't have alibi for did have to talk to them about the bears much. We did what did he say. He's cooperating gave his fingerprints. He said he'd take a polygraph nation into jeremy. I've seen no record of it. And why did they just drop him if he doesn't have an alibi. And this is for those of you who believe in psychics even forty one or one eight hundred victims victim of your age group. She described the person she saw. Who killed on. She said he's about five eight dark features and said yvonne knew him very well. I want to get to be a motorcycle. Somebody's big but there's a cross. I do know the killer. S to have those needs. Somebody victim marine guy that killed keller our marines germy gonna look sir fairest mustache. I've eight described him to a deep. That seems a bit that guy to did night. Think back in the. John brought up a point. Jeremy he was not in the vietnam war but he was a vietnam burns cleans. Yeah he's like forty fear of cameroon's three years. Forty four destroyed filler. Hello germs actually five nine. He does have a moustache. Dark hair dark eyes. And when i got his arrest record it also listed something that shook even me a non believer. He has across tattoo on his arm. But whether you're a believer or not every one of these people should have been looked into. And i have no record of it ever happening scam boy. I was just stunned by assist evaluate even on motive. The potential you know endless mode of others that could play. Detective samson was asked about all of these people mentioned in the psychic tapes in his deposition. Weren't hiring find out what when when other names are brought by whether they're coming in and tips to be life or whether you're getting together in a situation like this and have jointly coming up with thoughts on who could be you know. Where can we look. I information what. I'm trying to find out all these names that come from here where they look into or not had on the psychic interview The case and the stuff that has. I'm filled with every time i talked about this case i get angst every time and i'm a pretty calm is doing journalism for thirty five years at a pretty high level that i've covered some crazy stuff and i felt for the first time in my life on this case inadequate on getting to the truth. I've never felt that before. And i totally. Forgive me. i'm not trying to have a a session but you know that is really really difficult. Because i worked really hard on this case look at. I don't know where you are in life. I know where i am this. This case has absolutely consumed just about everyone who has touched it And it's it's i. It's haunting the cases haunting The the the main part. I'm trying to train to help you. I hope i'm helping you is issue will evaluate everything. The question really comes down to Where did you go. And i knew dwayne was right. Turns out i didn't open a can of worms. I opened a barrel of rattlesnakes corrupt cops scandals drugs and sex. I'd wind up exactly or dwayne was over a decade ago with one special and david still in prison despite the heart and work that went into the reporting so i decided to bring in professionals coming up next time on murder in alliance with a lot of time on that i guess one question is three hundred dollars to murder a woman in cold blood. The reason david thornton and gerald now. Some of the knowledge is fucking liar. I know that the allegations are out there. That even some in the police force were taken advantage of yvonne services. If that's in fact what was happening. There's a full blown declaration. That they went after three runs of david's did they. Approach verse and tried to coerce him into testifying against a there. Are things that make you say. Well why is he staying at a frigging hotel in town that night in right off the bat the couple of things that raise my eyebrows are the knife in the pants outta joe lead them to the what were the circumstances and joe did lead them there. That's a big deal. Y'all if you like this show. Please consider joining the unjust and unsolved patriotic. It shows how much you care and helps us. Continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some bonus episodes. qna's and events as a. Thank you and please lease rate emmer view. The more reviews the more attention. And the more likely we're going to get tips and leads. The right ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced. Reported by me maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murder alliance on twitter and instagram at murder. Underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com a.

Detective samson anna louisa muko tommy david samson james runner maggie freeling james renner macklowe von Tommy sako mcelhinney itchy lake glavas anna luisa louisa dot com slash alliance alliance code alliance dwayne
14: The Cops

Murder In Alliance

40:41 min | 3 months ago

14: The Cops

"Y'all before we get to the show. Here's another podcast that we think you should check out. Hi sarah hi caitlyn. How are you good. You know what i'm sick of. What ted bundy jeffrey. Dahmer gi see other well-known zero. You'll go no for real though. I'm tired of hearing about this. Same cases over and over and over me puck into. That's why we created luminol true crime. We are a true crime conspiracy. Theory aliens strange happenings hog cast. We talk you listen. So we are looming all true crime and we are here for all of those cases that you actually haven't heard of yet which there are surprisingly a lot of them every week. we knew theme. Check us out. We released episodes every wednesday their full length about an hour long each and we talk about different cases. You probably haven't heard of. We have a beer. we enjoy it. And it's a water funds. We think that you really like it. Join us and listen to luminol true crime by kids by luminosity previously on murder alliance. Come to you saying shit pissed off the wrong purse. She had so many secrets. It's like three phases. That i know of her life she was dayton aqap. They've said that she was pregnant and she prayed trying to be on the daddy. I knew that she would tell people that she was pregnant. And ask for money for an abortion. That's how she would send money to eric when he was in joint. Think she's she had a belly senior and she would shake down south to tell your wife or something. Here's some dark sides to. I don't know how she kept everything stream. This is murder and alliance an active investigation into who killed a lane. I'm maggie freeling a now that we've heard firsthand from an expert about the type of person she believes could have killed yvonne lane someone angry. Who knew von personally and had a reason to attack her with a vengeance and we've heard how botched the crime scene was how the scene didn't match what joe said. I think it's important to take a close look at who exactly detectives were on the case and turn the tables instead of putting the victims under the microscope. I wanna put the cops under it and look at their records and try to figure out why this case was such a mess. I've already talked about a couple of alliance. Police officers like quinton artists. A patrolman who you on allegedly said had started harassing her after a traffic stop. Artists is now a registered sex offender. Then they're officer rick. Who's last name. I'm keeping private for now. Who detectives told the psychic was rumored to be dating. You're on and possibly the father of her youngest child. But now i wanna focus on the four detectives assigned to the case as you may know already. If you've been digging through case files on patriotic. They were detectives. Lloyd bud samson william muko mark walsh and john leech and i want to start with john leech on april first nineteen ninety nine detective. Leach was not on duty yet. He was called in to help. Here's detective samson in his two thousand eight deposition. you've heard clips from before to assist us. Exactly his day off when he got called in. That was true that he was called off vacation to help us this case. And we've called in whether or not was vacation a lot. I don't recall that but yeah he was called in. Did you make the decision. That would be an order now. I do not but somebody did. And so each mccall on the day off part time off and helped samson says. There was no quote lead detective on the case. But according to samson he and bill mucciolo did most of the investigative work leach was mostly on the case to assist like mark welsh. In fact. i won't go into mark welsh much because he wasn't a big part of the case at all. Detective bill macklowe told attorneys in his two thousand. Eight deposition what little we know about mark. Welsh mark wasn't a detective at the time. he was a patrolman. Just doing the troll and the chief said Do anything for you. can i give anybody that. Help expedite this. Because we were just inundated with information and looking at things and he asked me who i thought would be a good investigator and i told them. Mark welsh. 'cause margaret very articulate. He's a good interviewer. And i said we have mark in that temporary time period of time for like three months. We got mark and he teamed up with john. Leauge the rest. That i know about mark. Welsh comes from newspaper articles that featured him in two thousand thirteen and twenty seventeen. He started in law enforcement part time in nineteen ninety-two then joined the alliance department around ninety eight. He worked there four years and then got fired in two thousand three for falsifying his time. Sheet and activity log. He appealed but the firing was upheld by an arbitrator who said his dishonesty compromised. His integrity welch took another job with the sailing. Ville police department and then was hired back by the alliance police in two thousand eleven where he works to this day. As sam said welch was paired on yvonne's case with john leach leach joined the alliance police department in nineteen seventy five as a cadet at age nineteen but he resigned just eight months later for reasons unknown detective leach rejoined the force again. Seven years later. As a probationary patrolman and almost ten years later in nine hundred one. He became a detective. Not much is known about. Lisa's time on the force which get to later. But i've heard a lot of rumors about his departure. After yvonne's murder detective leach was reassigned back to patrol in september nineteen ninety nine and then in two thousand one. He left the force. According to rumor around town. Leach was fired but the only document i could could get from the alliance police department lists him as leaving as quote retired with disability unknown. What leach did after retirement for the next three years but in two thousand four. He became a temporary instructor at stark state college until two thousand seven. A stark state official couldn't give me any more than that in terms of what he taught and why he left. The records didn't go back that far. And she could only see has payroll ended in two thousand seven. Now if you remember doing pullman. The investigative reporter from ohio spoke to john leech in his special. And that's because george hale allegedly picked out a cop in the first lineup. He was given and hail told twain that the person he saw leaving yvonne's looked like john leech and the person he picked out in the lineup also looked like john leech so leach was always interesting to duane. Called me one person. One person to crack this case leach. Leach is the he was on vacation and Ended up taking over the crime scene for the murder. That's why i was interested in him. Said they don't know who called in that day that he worked for about three years investigating the case before his tv special aired. And in that time as you've heard he had to sit down with john leech and if you've seen the episode. He also confronts him outside a building and puts the heat on john. Leech was a key detective in the case. Did you know who identify. I know there's a police officer less before the investigation. Well like i said i do. Remember it coming down to the point that he was not a reliable witness the special aired in two thousand six and john leach less stark state in two thousand seven. The only thing we know about john lewis right now is he doesn't want to be found. Here's samson in his deposition defective. We do somewhere in maryland. Have you been in touch with somewhere. You have to give me address to be by. Subpoenaed samson means for the same deposition about david thorne's case with david's appellate attorneys that he and macklowe were subpoenaed for. Here's macos answer. You know. Or don leeches. No i don't. I think i believe he moved baltimore. Yes you know how to get in contact with only. I don't have any up you know. I don't have any updated phone numbers or address on him now Maybe the city does i don't know. Now here's the other very odd thing about. John leech in ohio police. Disciplinary records are public. And for this case we were able to get the personnel files of all the officers involved that we requested except john leech according to alliance police sergeant michael yaron. The police records supervisor leeches file is missing. So in terms of figuring out why leach actually left and if he had any misconduct of any kind of war. We'll never know but what we do know is. He doesn't want to be found and dwayne. I wonder why do you ever feel like you're being followed around the internet. Maybe advertisers know too much about you. Our new sponsor ip vanish. Vpn is here to help you. Take back your privacy and help you become more anonymous on the internet. I vanish is a virtual private network of upn for short of vpn. A super important tool that helps you safely browse the internet and let me tell you. Journalists this is amazing for me. I downloaded it. It took two seconds to set up and now. I don't have to worry about my privacy. You can use a vpn on your computers tablets. Iphones even things like your fire. Stick when you're streaming media when you use a vpn all your data is encrypted. What you're reading what you're searching what you're watching whenever you're doing and you get anonymous. Ip addresses you can circumvent any online censorship. you get protection while using public wifi and twenty four seven support so again go to ip vanish dot com slash m. i. a. and clean your sixty five percents savings plan starting at just three forty nine or thirty one forty nine a year. This is the time to sign up with our discount and get a vpn with their current promotional offerings. You can save sixty five percent off their usual offering. I vanish is the best of the best. Even rated four point seven out of five on trust pilot. And that's with more than six thousand reviews. Remember it's ip vanish dot com slash. Mia to get the deal. And start protecting yourself online. Unlike leach i do have bill. Muck lows personnel file. Muko started working at the alliance police department in. Nineteen seventy nine as a college intern. He was formerly hired a few years later in september. Nineteen eighty two. I twenty five years. Old muckler's career as an alliance officer is pretty standard fare based on news coverage usually handled small-scale stuff like bar fights and the occasional arson as personnel file is fairly small with lots of letters from the and the public commending his job as an officer his internal evaluations are average. Really the only thing that stands out about the six foot five two hundred and forty five pound officer is that he needs to look quote less to shoveled after reviewing his whole file. Muko actually seems like an all around decent guy. I don't see any disciplinary actions. In the file that would explain why this investigation was so shoddy except that usually in small towns it's slim pickings for the force and muko was a below average student graduating high school with two point. Five gpa and college rankings. Four hundred and thirty eight out of seven hundred and ten students. Or you're adding john danny and i went to muck lowe's home to see if we could talk to him but his wife answered mr mcguire william muscles white sure makalu retired from the alliance police department in august. Two thousand six at forty nine years old after suffering a heart attack and having bypass surgery in fact he still suffering from heart issues today disabled as them like physically or what. He does as as massive apart attack. Oh i'm sorry to hear that every time he doesn't matter okay. So yeah okay. He's had plenty of like surgeries and everything. Yeah yeah okay. that's why. He resigned from the police department part attack. Then it's got more everything that you need to know should be on the lights. The pd stop. Yes so thank you okay. Thank you very much for your time. Michael wasn't going to talk in fact it seemed like he knew we were coming and told his wife what to say. Muggles family has a gofundme. Page up to help with the dialysis and surgery for defibrillator. This go fund me page is where i found the only photo in twenty two years any of us could dig up of detective macklowe but samson on the other hand we have tons of photos of him. He didn't fly under the radar like his partner. And his file is prolific in comparison. And not in a good way. I'd say a majority of it or complaints and disciplinary actions and perhaps this explains what happened with the investigation because to me samson seems to be the lead on the case. David's attorney questioned him about this in his deposition believe conduct case well. There was a lead detective. Bill and i did most of the work. But you're saying you're saying today that you were not protected. No i'm not saying that. We actually had a lead detective. Bill and i arrived at the scene at the same time We did a lot of the work together. think. I don't think we had a lead detective. Okay My memory have trial and an pc gary post mitch and john. Leech did not find no and neurosurgeon michael. Perhaps it mistletoe. Type of you know outside of that does that. Make me the lead detective now. I don't know doesn't you are the seconds. But if samson wasn't technically the lead he was a huge part of the case and his record says a lot about what kind of cop he was. Lloyd bud samson became an alliance police officer at thirty years old in nineteen eighty eight before that he had graduated from the police academy in nineteen eighty six and worked in neighboring town. Departments samson wouldn't become a detective until ten years later in nineteen ninety eight meaning. He'd been a detective about a year. When you von was murdered prior to becoming a detective samson's performance. Evaluations were average scoring mostly threes and fours and a five on almost all points except for twos on work judgments volume of acceptable work and initiative in fact initiative lack of interest and laziness. All come up in samson's evaluations in two thousand two samson requested to be transferred from detective to patrol because he wasn't happy with his detective hours he said some emails he preferred to work day shift and said because of this and other grievances. He was being quote forced to leave as a detective. Yvonne lanes case was the only murder case he ever worked as a detective after his reassignment things really went downhill for samson by two thousand nine samson had multiple infractions against him including on conduct lack of knowledge of rules and regulations failure to perform duties as a police officer and quote disturbing behavior in two thousand ten after multiple. Suspensions chief scott griffith wrote samson quote. I must say that. I found your understanding and knowledge of your duty to be very nearly shocking. You are a twenty two year veteran of this police department and you're working knowledge of laws and procedures should be much more than it apparently is and quote later. That year samson was again reprimanded for violating rules and regulations including insubordination incompetence gross misconduct and truthfulness. The definition of truthfulness as defined by the apd is quote. No member of this department shall make a false official report or knowingly cause any official document to be altered in any way that causes it to become inaccurate. or which brings me to new names. Great cox and billy baker. Can you identify that. My handwriting entire page in his deposition simpson was questioned about a page of handwritten notes found in the case. File six hundred eighty nine nineteen hundred dollars at his residence on twenty ninth street in canton greg ill. According to the notes. Detectives got a tip from a man named greg cox in which cox allegedly told detectives another man named dilly. Baker was at a bar with cox and told cox about a murder of a woman in which a dude quote cut her from ear to ear and had her head smashed in with a tv cox allegedly told samson that he feels. Billy didn't murder yvonne. But that billy knows who did samson noted that cox was drinking to excess and when they spoke with him he expressed himself very explicitly. Now what did you do We got a boy hitting remember him. We got his name. I don't know how we got his name. But we went over or mclaughlin. I went over canton to interview this guy. I think it was bucknell. Been leach him when over talking to this guy and this is what we got out of it that you believe he did. Talk to greg cognitive. And he's wanna gave us well evidently from this interview. This is what he gave us. When sue was doing her own investigation she also found this document and track down. Greg cox cox told her he had no involvement in the investigation in any way. He said he never contacted detectives and did not give any information concerning billy baker to them he said muklewicz samson never came to his house to speak to him or any person about the death of yvonne lane. In fact he swore to all this in an affidavit in which he wrote quote any statement given by any person saying i gave. Such information is absolutely untrue. End quote and the clincher. Cock said at this time in nineteen ninety nine he had been sober for eight years and quote any statement given by any person saying i was intoxicated during this time is absolutely untrue. This information is defamatory and directly opposed to the work. I was doing with the organizations. I was involved with and quote meaning the alcoholic recovery programs. He was part of soap. I decided to call greg cox. I read your affidavit. And i just wanted to. You know confirm with you that what you said in that is true and that you never spoke to the police about billy baker. And i'm wondering this is also freak and weird gave language. But it's just so bizarre. How do you think your name came up in this go right. Did you ever have any involvement with the police would be. There'd be a reason why they you know tried to say you said this. Did you ever talk to billy baker. Like did you ever ask him. After the fact mankind. Yeah i think he is the brother roger. Okay that's not really bigger a bigger nerves airy and yvonne. I got no crew right unless they met prison. Whatever i don't know 'cause rhino billy been prison. You did not know. Detective samson detective samson because he's the one who wrote the report and you did not know him is your opinion that they just completely made this up this summer. I am just looking forward to relaxing. I've been working nonstop at i. Just wanna sit around at a barbecue are on the beach. Chilling out and part of that is just tuning out and having fun and to start. I've been playing best fans and once you start fiennes. You won't want to stop. I am on level fifty. I'm a beginner. But i love how calming it is to play best fans. My favorite part about best fiennes are the cute characters and the beautiful graphics. Honestly it looks like a fantasy land. I absolutely love that stuff. I'm a big lord of the rings fan and that's what this looks like. 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Running around or taking seven hour drives to ohio. I never thought. I would love audiobooks as much as i do. And now i'm addicted. I'm currently listening to dune. Because the new movie is coming out. And i have always had the book on my shelf ready to go and just never had the time and now i was finally able to digest june because of audible with audible you can find the largest selection of audiobooks ranging from bestsellers new releases business motivation and celebrity memoirs. You can also find. Binge worthy podcasts. Murder in alliance listeners can start a free audible trial today visit audible dot com slash unjust or text unjust to five hundred five hundred. Honestly guys give it a try. I am addicted visit audible dot com slash unjust or text unjust to five hundred. Five hundred for your free trial. So what does this mean. There's record of guy giving alisa tip that the guy says he never gave if the notes are right and cox did give this tip. That's one thing. But if cox is telling the truth in his sworn affidavit and never gave the tip at all then does that mean samson made it up. Which of course makes me think. Did he make anything else up. He was reprimanded by the apd and twenty ten for truthfulness. So when was the first time he was for the benefit of the doubt. Let's say the lead was true and samson did get a tip from cox about someone claiming to know what happened to von lane. Works with these mission. I don't know if we followed up on. William william billy barker are baker or not nothing. I don't recall anything at this point. Okay thank you for the record. There's nothing in the file about them. Following up the only thing is an internal bulletin for billy. Baker quote wanted for questioning for a homicide that took place in the city of alliance april first. Nineteen ninety nine if located. Stop and hold for detective. Moco and detective samson and quote in the top right corner in handwriting. It says quote. I heard other things are working out. Good luck. macklowe samson. Didn't know what this meant. So based on what we know about samson we also wanted to talk to him Definitely he's definitely. They keenum knows more profound him. Living in what can fairly be described as an above average house worth about double the typical home cost in the county. He lives in the countryside in a new looking home. Set way back on a huge piece of property down a long driveway lined by flowering. pear trees. say we're going to have a slightly more welcome. John danny got out of the car and left me in the driveway as they are knocking on the front door. Samson comes walking into the driveway from around back and corners. Then hello how are you. Good you mr samson gives good to meet you. i'm john hardin. Good this danny wexler. So we are provin. Investigators who worked for an innocence project. And so your name came up in a case we've been asked to look into your online. Yes sir you knew. One eight investigator. Yeah yeah danny give a quick spiel and then they get right to one of the big was. We came across this psychic report. Okay you remember going and visiting with the psychic nokomis. Okay and you're not you're not going i don't really want to get into it. It's twenty years. I've been retired for eleven. Yeah yeah do you. Do you believe that he did absolutely. Yeah so what to you is the most compelling evidence against him like i said it's all in my report things written down some of the things he said and did all been documented. I don't really want to get into a guy but as we know from the gym interview. Donna danny will keep going a remember mark. Lowen you saying that. He didn't think that he had done it three months. After that was when you went to the psyche that you had your doubts that he was responsible and that's why we're if he's guilty. We're not gonna know remember that. Yeah okay to confirm. They did tell the psychic they didn't believe it was david. Think buds shares my my fainting. Dave didn't do it. I don't think we're trying to figure out a waste and our on his face over. Not in my opinion. You are yes The evidence we had with against him to me. With compelling i mean in my in my mind what he did how he tried to cover it up how to how he tried to make himself How do you. How do you cameo yourself at location to prove that. He was there now what he did to make sure people knew he was there like going to that place with that tiger cub and all the stuff to make him. Yeah i just feel that he was. Okay yeah there's something. I don't want to get into if they find a thorn mastermind. This let him out. I don't give a shit. Why doesn't samson give a shit. It was his job to figure this out for you von and yet he doesn't give a shit one way or the other. I want to say i'm shocked. But knowing his record and how the investigation went down. I'm not samson is now retired and drives a school bus ie we appreciate your time very much. We'll say one way or the other. You know i mean there are some you know we hear these things about okay. We had cost in this and then we thought okay. That's almost never true or fisk. She she thinks he did. Oh yeah samson tells john and danny to talk to david sister gina. He said that gina believes david. Did it now. This is the first person we've heard of who allegedly thanks. David did this. Besides the cops and yvonne's family and it's his own sister. So why does samson think this familiar with san and hurries date. This is an interview with detective. Leach and macklowe with david sister gina april sixth nineteen ninety nine during the brief eleven. Minute interview is a key bit. That gina says that and Just had asked me brother. I mentioned to that has very upset with what had occurred in asked him if he did it he said no and i asked him if she knew houdini involved in. He told me now that he didn't have for the last person. I believe that my brother did not commit this crime. But i do agree that he may know what might have happened. Or who's involved now. This is the only bit i could find. Tina even remotely says anything about david. Being involved so samson saying that she thinks he's guilty just isn't true but either way we wanted to talk to gina directly so we called her harjanne john. This is gina. How are you today. Busy busy busy but i got a few minutes. How are you. I'm doing well for Thanks for responding and taking our call where you and david close. I found that we were very close through the years especially Even though we're almost eleven years apart he was like practically my life. Baby dog growing up will and we We definitely remained very close through the years now. My my brother was altered. Boy he was a good guy he would go at is out of his way for anybody and i remember at my grandparents house and i said to david i said i'm only gonna ask you this one time in one time. Only i said to you know who killed you. Van for did you have anything to do with it. And he looked at me with a broken up face and he said. I can't believe you would ask. He said no. I never did it. I don't know who did it. And i would've never had anything to do with it. They grew up without my dad myself. I would've i wouldn't grow without his mom or dad. Yeah that seems i mean. That's that's consistent with everything that we hear about david. This is more emphatic than the statement. We heard her give leach and muck closure off. Maybe david did have something to do with it. Or you always steadfastly nonni. I you know what. I took dave's word as golden when i asked him about it. You know it was like they twisted my words you around and just went right after my brother and that was not my intent for and so when they arrested my brother complicity or they sat at might table and I said my piece. They recorded what they wanted to hear. Then when they questioning they under reporter that was going and they would continue to turn it on off office we spoke. They would ask a question and they were remember clicking. And i don't know but i do know that they twisted all my statements rounds if made it sound like i was trying to convict my brother. Say so do you remember them like stopping the recording. Then at times you thought was pretty peculiar for them to do that. I don't know if i remember thinking that way. But looking back is seeing how they twisted my statement around. Because i had seen the statement that they put out. I said and i remember hank and kittens. Say it that way. I didn't say back and and things like that. So if that's what they were doing they did but they did. Which statements round most definitely altered her statements and this actually lines up with a completely unrelated court. Case filed against the alliance pd which alleges quote the defendant. Appellant was denied his right to a fair trial. When the court permitted the state to introduce an admit tape recordings which were partial and or edited by the police and not the complete an entire tape and quote. So if true did. Ap this to joe's tapes to rose. And chris what was the full conversation before enduring. These recordings if police edited them. Why y'all were taking a short season break in order to follow up on leads tips and persons of interest. We have a ton of information. We can't reveal yet from interviews we've done and we're going to be following up on new leads as well from listeners. In the tip line you can head on over to the website for all of the tip line and number information we will be on the ground in ohio exploring all of those things over the next few weeks and we will be back in early september with the final six episodes of murdering alliance. In the meantime get your friends and family to listen and please rate and review to help get more years on david. And yvonne story and if you want extra content in the meantime sign up for patron. We'll be speaking with brett and alice the prosecutors podcast july. Twenty ninth on a patriotic only get vocal about the trial and appeals and that will also be available on your patriotic feed. Y'all if you like this show please consider joining the unjust and unsolved patron. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some awesome bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please lease rate. 'em review the more reviews the more attention and the more likely we're going to get tips and leads and the right ears will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by me. Maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murderer. An alliance on twitter and instagram at murder underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust and unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com

samson john leech leach alliance police department billy baker mark welsh yvonne alliance police macklowe Lloyd bud samson yvonne lane Muko Leach sarah hi caitlyn ted bundy jeffrey dayton aqap maggie freeling greg cox william muko bill mucciolo
7: The Witness

Murder In Alliance

37:21 min | 4 months ago

7: The Witness

"Some of the best storyteller in true crime are the people who have spent years taking into those stories the host of tenfold. More wicked kate. Winkler dawson has a new show called wicked words on exactly right in each episode dawson interviews journalists and writers about their best true crime cases. Wicked words about the decisions. That storytellers make both good and bad. You'll meet the forensic psychologist. Who spent years interviewing k killer. Dennis rader dawson also talks to a new york times bestselling author who went to school with a future serial killer and she interviews a magazine reporter who investigates the connection between two men found dead in arizona canal seven years apart tenfold more wicked presents. We could words about the stories behind the stories in true crime. We could words on exactly right is available. Now on the tenfold more wicked. Feed solicit unsubscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes are every monday follow wicked words on instagram and facebook at tenfold more wicked and twitter at tenfold more previously on murder in alliance to me from what i understand of the case. Stocks just didn't make sense into the post office. That drew is hanaway grin dollar time. Nicest guy ever. I thought no fish can't be said that they put him in a room and they chained him to the wall by his arm. Spit on and they told him that they wanted him to confess. Bread turvy a nationally. No criminal forensics expert picked apart what he calls a botched case. Something's missing. I can't i can't understand. There's got to be more kazoo higher. Eighteen years of child support with a check one in the prosecution. Turn this over. What is going on here so makes you feel like there's more to the story. This is murder and alliance active investigation into who killed of our lane. I'm maggie freeling On the morning of april first nineteen ninety nine before the murdered body of on lane was found. A neighbor was walking by nine. Sixteen devine street twenty year old george hale said. He was walking to mcdonald's around nine thirty ten. Am when he heard puppies. Barking glanced over excited. Her budget puppeteer. And i'll and. I'll come this guy that a guy came out with the trash bag. That's all the glad is of. George described the man he saw leaving the house with a trash bag in his mid to late. Twenty s about one hundred eighty pounds and about five nine wearing a tee shirt and blue jeans with medium length hair and overlapping door. Do you remember what store was. This is the voice of mike. Durkin a private investigator for both thorn ovens ex boyfriend who's been in prison for most twenty two years for her murder bottom door like yourself comes over to door little bit. Doctors came bottom down there or a de now. This is significant because it's an eyewitness account of person leaving the crime scene just hours before a vons body was found yet hours after she was believed to have been killed George said that he again walked by avant house later in the day. Five ten pm and saw police there. That's when he said he realized crime was being investigated so he walked over to some of the officers and gave a statement right then about the person he saw leaving the house the next day. The police asked him to the station. Loss of took you down to the department and the next day. They did that yet. Next day looking folks pictures they show you any pictures in particular otas yards out this big huge book. Tv pac- critical ryan. Did you feel at that point. Bracket i i was looking. I see anybody. I see is all i saw the house. Okay so in other words you could have gotten nice good picture you remember with real fresh in your mind is a hale. Said he did not see the man. He spotted outside of house in the photo book. It's unclear who's mugshots were shown to him. And that's because the police made no records that we are aware of of their interview. Or lynam with george hale. In fact george hills name never came up at trial or an any of the documents that police prosecutors gave to david's defense lawyers. The weather is finally warm. And the last thing i wanna do is be all sweaty in my kitchen cooking over a flaming hot stove. No frigging thank you but also i don't exactly wanna order takeout every single meal. That's why i am. Obsessed with daily harpist. Daily harvests delivers delicious harvest bowls platt bridge smoothies and more all built on organic fruits and vegetables. Right to the door. As you'll know. I love the harvest bowl. The artichoke and lemon harvestable currently one of my favorites but also in the summer. I am loving their mango and papaya. Smoothing daily harvest is delicious food. All builds on whole organic fruits and vegetables that conveniently saves fresh in your freezer. So it's ready when you are and murder in alliance listeners. Get twenty five dollars off your first box. Go to dili harvest dot com and enter code maggie to get twenty five dollars off your first box. That's code maggie. For twenty five dollars off your first box at daily harvest dot com seriously. Don't twenty five dollars off is an incredible deal. I'm not joking you buy. His dealing harvest is one of my favourite sponsors stay cool calm and collected during the summer heat daily harvest dot com and enter code mackey for twenty five dollars off. This man was in a house. Would they dead body and was either cleaning up for the killer or was the killer It's very suspicious. This was a paragraph in a police report. That was not turned over. This is beth karas. She's a legal analyst and former assistant. Da manhattan new york and if her voice sounds familiar. You probably recognize her from tv. She was with court. Tv for nineteen years covering cases including oj. Simpson double murder. When you know most of the countries i am guilty. Scott peterson scott peterson. When he went fishing on the morning of christmas eve day. He says his wife was home. She was alive and he left. And casey anthony casey anthony. There's no one else george. Anthony already testified and he denied it. So i do believe that we will see her on the stand today. She researches and produces content for an nbc production company. Beth came across. David's case a few years ago when dwayne poelman a local reporter and tv news anchor and ohio reached out to a friend of hers. I've mentioned wayne's name a couple of times and played a few of his clips about david's case. And so my friend said look you know my my ohio friend reporter says there's a story here this you didn't do it he's locked up and And and the the the side story which we kind of wanted to get into it as the focus was a woman who would marry david sue. Glass a she's a lovely person I got to know her visited with her. We still are in contact. And that's how. I met south through sue david's wife. Of course they'd known of and seen beth for years court. tv and other shows. She's appeared on the legal analyst. So speaking with her for this was pretty cool. She spent a ton of time looking into david's case with her friend for a potential tv show. I visited david and joe welts and two different prisons. And then i had extensive phone calls with both of them That were recorded as marlin. And of course. I talked to a number of other people who were peripheral involved. Knew something we did go to the courthouse. We did get a look at all the evidence That pulled out the evidence for us. Wait we photographed. You know all the evidence in the case. Unfortunately the tv show fell through. That happens a lot with true crime shows. That had already done so much legwork. She's a wealth of information. On the case plus i was interested to hear her perspective as a former prosecutor. I read a lot of transcripts. And i was reading the trial. Transcript and you got to understand that you have my background as a You know as a prosecutor police prosecutors are not in the business of arresting. Try innocent people. Yes it happens but the vast majority of people who go through the system. they're guilty. Okay so beth said that. While she is a huge proponent of the innocence networks she still approached this case with the assumption that the prosecutors got it right. Beth went through the entire trial and flagged a lot of the same things. I did as concerning things. That just didn't make sense to her. Like joe's confession and how he led the police to the pants. He was allegedly d- wearing that night but the most crucial piece jumped out at me was what came out post conviction. And that's when the defense got one of the police reports that was prepared. Close time to the murder that was based on notes. Taken by cop at the scene. Police note that was taken about what george hale saw. The morning yvonne's body was discovered. George was only found out about in david's appeal process when david requested the discovery which is odd because the state was already required to turn over all relevant discovery before the trial and yet it wasn't until after the conviction that anyone got the report mentioning what george hale said. He saw the fact that it was never turned over to. The defense is shocking. At that time david appeal team realized that this was a bombshell. not only. was it a breach violation. That could get them back in court but george hale could potentially identify the killer and they knew they had to speak with him as torture views. Mike durkan Like talk to trouble or anything a piece got. Hey buddy. he's a miniature talk all right. I'm coming cold. Durkin explains to george why he was there. After this case was all done that family still persona at the police report where they mentioned to talk to you. We never had your name. We never i can show you never three never knew we never knew existed until got a copy of this police report now. The rest of the interview was what you already heard held scrubbing. What and who he saw. The morning of on body was found and then he said the police actually tried to hypnotize him in hopes of jogging his memory to better describe the mystery man he saw i coastal pets by that area. Yeah alleged doctors have over back there. Remember site hypnotist. I mean missouri. Yes i was a actually try to. Yeah they were hooked up style and then durkin interrupted. Sure they were trying to the woman. You here is georgia's girlfriend like to me. I've given polygraphs think people polygraph hooked pinger gags. I had to ask everything. They were hooked me up. Thanks and i said this word. Take this stuff off a little machine. Bill computer laptop. Faith older to deal with your latest lives. Advertise detected trying to. George goes on to describe what happened in the world. Just told me sit back and just relax. Just answer all the questions. As i get go work. L. wants to do tops in there with you. Yeah they were both in. They get back. Because i would do they. They get 'cause. I wouldn't relax. We can't relax because of that. So george stopped cooperating as much. He thought he couldn't successfully be hypnotized. Did they ever get mad about. I would sit there and do it. Just give it a try. I didn't give to try to work on. So they eventually took him home. And then that's when the harassment started after that what is before police by the other. Detectives lights detectors. They kept the absolute here. They see me. They said something to her bother. Where was i that your mother tomorrow against that. Get it for trying to find out where i was that. Dass her mother where i was asked me. I was there anything. But what they went to Where it was or he had done it. Ali note you told her all the time or consummated contacting the kept on. Come by check it out on asking more questions. And then george said that detectives told him that they didn't want him to come to court. I don't understand how the court thing came out it does that. It doesn't make me held at that. Came up they say they. They don't want they love the understands that around the time of the trial though. Was that when when there had been arrests made you remember when was. I don't think there was anything rested. What he's been arrested. They just said because news. They do want now. George also told durkin that he had met with sue before sue had gone over to the house and shown him three photos. Victor davis uh some three three of them were in any of the guys who saw if you remember the face that he saw george said that the man he saw leaving the house that morning was not david or joe hells at. The man was around five nine. Of course he couldn't tell this from the photos. But david and joe are both over six feet tall. Here's beth again. So who is this man that that is the one key part of this case set. That just never like never out right with me like something is wrong here. Something is really wrong. It makes me question why that report wasn't provided to the defense like what's what's up with that and why it wasn't further investigate so it makes you feel like there's more to the story in. His post conviction appeals. David's attorneys questioned samson low. About george hale. Here's samson all right. This is a winds police department. Wino- form or george hale and he was given a lineup and he did not recognize anybody in the lineup. Now clarify point for me please. you just said that was a line of form is that different than the actual mine. You know would've pictures on it. Sure what happened. Where where's that document. Well normally what we do on lineup as we put the lineup together and we photocopy all the pictures in the lineup. Okay then the pictures put back in the 'cause we polaroid's at that time the the photographs put back in the bookings both but the lineup itself should have been photocopy to who was in the lineup. Okay impose where. Well the copy. Everything should've gone records. Okay so the happy with pictures you know so happy. I got copy. Yeah gonna record would be along with the copy or the original this and the supplement saying what he came in and did whether he pick somebody out or he didn't pick somebody out or okay so if i told you that file that was produced for shoot at prayers department contained that then. Where would you tell me a little records. We didn't you didn't do lineup. No we get the lineup. We'd just copy so didn't retain any You know mccain about does looked at for possible six males in other words the lineup should have been documented but if it was that documentation disappeared. And this didn't just happen once. David's attorney told samson that there were actually two lineups given which will get to later and neither were in any of the records. David's team had received their given to the prosecutor's office for their business. They wanted the to lineups. We had them. We gave them the attorneys right and before you gave to the attorney you had them because you show them to a witness correct related. I don't well. You certainly wouldn't pull a lineup from an unrelated case and give that prosecutor on the state of ohio. We do don't case right right. Basically what she is pointing out is that she should have all the discovery in this case and for whatever reason both lineups are missing from her files they were never handed over to david's original defense lawyers who had no idea they existed and his post conviction lawyers also did not have them either. This is an insane oversight or something else. And i think it's something else. Pros is back to sponsor murder in alliance and i want to share a few updates since using the custom formulas. Pros sent me before. I started using pros. My hair was a mess. It was thin it was breaking. it wouldn't grow and now it's actually grown. I would probably say two inches which is incredible for me. it's softer and it smells. Great pros no was. There is more to you than just your type. Pros is specifically designed for you and your hair get started by taking their in depth hair quiz. The haircuts was truly eye opening. 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Jor tale said that could be of importance. Was that the man he leaving. The house walked through the yard the west and then he he went around this okay so that would be the west nile. Just wanted to make sure your direction. And who's your touches vons on the west side of the house. Jim remember jim was the last person we know about to see von alive. He was seen at five thirty with her smashing soda cans and her driveway. Jim said he was over there to see the puppies and then said afterward he went on a bike ride and then without work by ten pm again from what we know. The police did not follow up on jim as a suspect. There is no record of a formal interview with him. And he never testified. What's also interesting. Is that jim. At least vaguely resembled the description of the person. George saul leaving the house. The morning vons body was found. Sue told me at the time. Jim was in his thirties. Hundred and forty pounds and five seven a bit smaller than what george reported which was a guy in his late twenties. One hundred eighty pounds by nine. Another interesting thing is that when tonya testified at trial she said the day before. There were four puppies at avante house. The day her daughter was found. There were only two. So where did the other two puppies go. You'd think if someone innocent had bought the puppies they'd have stepped forward to tell police what they know. Jim did say he went to see the puppies if he was given to. He never mentioned that. Nor did he mention he went in the house remember. He said he went on a bike. Ride maybe the puppies were in trash bag of the person. George saw leaving the house the next morning and now you may also be wondering if george was a neighbor. Wouldn't he recognized gen. George lived a block over and walks like the one he did to mcdonald's. He would have no reason to pass jim's house unless he was zigzagging up and down blocks so it's possible he had never seen. Jim also told me that she had never asked george about jim. Because jim was also not known to david's team until his federal appeal in two thousand six when they once again got more documents that were never turned over and there may be a reason why jim was not followed up on. Jim's brother-in-law is an alliance police officer. Who was at the scene the day after the murder that officer told me his only involvement in the case was peripheral and that jim was only questioned because he lived nearby and investigators interviewed oliva funds. Neighbors but still the last person known to have zena. Von alive was a brother-in-law of an alliance officer and he was never questioned in any detail. I mean maybe it was just too oversights forgetting to follow up on jim and george hill but these are seriously major oversights but then that's not the only connection that members of the alliance police department may have had in a vons murder. There was a a former policeman that she was afraid of. Okay artis artis yes. And what did she tell you about that. This is tania lane a mother. She said that. In september nineteen ninety eight. Vaughn was stopped by the police for a traffic infraction officer. Quinn artists pulled over for driving with a suspended license and quote dictatorships plates. He took her to the station and processed her when she left. He kept her license. According to tanya in a police interview she recounted johnson happened next. She told me that he came in the house on the pretext of giving her driver's license had her driver's license. He said he was going to give it back to her. And then he got in the house and he started taking advances and have his hands all over. Her is what she said and she said then One of eric's mother's friends stopped over to see if eric's mom was there and kind of ask him what he was doing because he wasn't in uniform says oh you're policeman and he said you uniform. Oh i see vaughn's. Mother is the only person who recounted this incident. Fred cameron who remember is the father of eric. Cameron vons on and off again. Boyfriend and father of a few of her five children told police in an interview. That artists did come back and tapped harassing von. According to sue he was often hanging out at another police officers house who lived around the corner next to gym. There are multiple allegations from other women against artists to one woman filed a complaint with the police in which she said that when artists was booking her he asked quote. I have to take your picture. Do you want to do this with or without your clothes on. He then allegedly went on to inquire if her bra and panties were matching. The woman also said that after this incident artists began stopping by her home to see what she was doing and there were several other similar. Complaints filed by women in alliance artists was charged with aggravated menacing for another incident. And he was let go from the alliance police department. He is now a registered sex offender and artis might not have been a rogue cop in fact the alliance police department has a history of corruption and the early part of nineteen ninety eight. The alliance mayor ordered an audit on the alliance police department. After it was discovered that five thousand dollars worth of confiscated. Money was missing from evidence. Mayor judy car was the first female mayor of alliance and is remembered for improving the city and the police force. She's now deceased. After the ten month audit auditors discovered that there was a much larger issue than just five thousand dollars more than fourteen thousand dollars worth of money and drugs including cocaine and marijuana were missing from the evidence room they also discovered that there were at least six shotguns missing from the department. And now if this sounds familiar there was a recent documentary about a different case in new york that nearly mirrors auditors found an alliance but on a much larger scale documentary is called the seven five about former and white. Pd officer michael dowd. Who similarly stole money and drugs during busts and was running his own cocaine ring while on the job in the eighty s and ninety s. michael of crook. Who ended up wearing a cop's uniform criminal. I consider myself both a competent gangster. Alliance police chief. James black and eight officers including narcotics gregory burr or found responsible for the missing money and drugs. Mayor car ordered the officers and chief suspended pending the investigation after he was suspended chief. Black allegedly threatened auditors. One auditor had said in a police report that black told the auditors and sheriff personnel that they should get out before it gets dark the auditor said black made reference to the recent disappearance of a construction worker and said the chief implied that this might also happen to the auditors that they would disappear maricar eventually fired chief black in one thousand nine hundred eight. After thirty one years of service and narcotics officer burr was charged with four felonies including theft. After chief black left the force he was replaced by laurence doria. He just started as chief at the time. Von's murder remember. He was the one who brought his date to the crime scene later. Chief black also pleaded guilty to aiding and illegal gambling operation even today new search alliance police department articles as recent as twenty seventeen are titled quote alliance police department investigation leads to distrust and going back to george hale remember that we found out there were actually two lineups given well a few years later. George had told twain that both were given to him. The second was given on april second which david's team eventually got and had a photo of david in which as i mentioned george didn't. Id anyone in that lineup. But there was a first lineup a date earlier that we still don't have which george said he did identify somebody. Did you find somebody. you're recommenced. i did point out. somebody else. Says detectives told him later. The picture he pointed out was that of an alliance police officer you think police were involved charge. Don think that something involved and maybe that's why they didn't tell david lawyers about george hale. Doing pullman asked one of detectives on of aunts case detective leach about this john. Leech was a key detective in the case. Did you know who he identified a police officer. Let's before the investigation. Well like i said i do. Remember it coming down to the point that he was not a reliable witness reliable or not george hale never testified in the murder. Trial and george isn't the only one who thinks the police could be involved. Two of the detectives working the case actually went to a psychic for help. And it's not with the psychic said to them but they told the psychic about their own brothers in blue that is truly shocking coming up next time on murder alliance. Why is you know so many times you never asked about. Shooting was possibly seen aged three thorough. Search to listen saber. He was hot mass Anger and rage very people scare me. He scared me supposedly. She told his mother's the youngest child. You know in terms of the police force my god. I had eight or nine name of officers who were potential sexual partners destroyed. Guy was putting her to so if he just caught he can blackmail the cops given what we know about your von is. I am pretty sure people didn't want a lot of that stuff flying down y'all if you like this show please consider joining the unjust and unsolved patron. It shows how much you care and helps us continue to tell these stories. Plus you get some bonus episodes. Qna's and events as a. Thank you and please lease rate and review the more reviews the more attention and the more likely we're going to get tips and leads and the right ear is will be reached. Murder in alliance is produced and reported by me maggie freeling with editorial consulting from amber hunt. Aaron case is our legal intern and bob. Mallory is our engineering assistant. For more information and resources go to murder in alliance dot com. You can find murderer. An alliance on twitter and instagram at murder underscore alliance and joined the discussion on facebook at unjust an unsolved podcast discussion group. Murder alliance is a production of the obsessed network. You can find all their shows at obsessed network dot com a.

george hale david George george alliance police department Winkler dawson Dennis rader dawson arizona canal maggie freeling hanaway Durkin jim lynam george hills beth beth karas casey anthony casey anthony dwayne poelman